What if booking a private chef was as easy as ordering an Uber? Iyabo Bello is a serial founder and entrepreneur, best known for iKooK, an app connecting private chefs to their target audience. Join us as she shares the unlikely story of how she came up with the idea to start iKooK after working in fashion design and food science. We get into the weeds with the premise of the app, how it differs from other home chef experiences, and how the cooks are vetted before being allowed to register on the app. Iyabo shares her experience of navigating a double-sided marketplace and discusses the process of building an app and driving traffic toward it instead of her website. We discuss bootstrapping and outsourcing to create a user-friendly, effective app, and handling health and safety as a food service. Join us as we discuss the challenges and benefits of building iKooK, and what you can learn from her journey. Thanks for tuning in.
\n\nKey Points From This Episode:
\n\nWelcoming Iyabo Bello, founder of iKooK, and the story of the inception of her business.
\nHer background in fashion design and food science.
\nThe premise of iKooK and how it differs from other home chef experiences.
\nHow the process behind vetting chefs has evolved.
\nNavigating a double-sided marketplace.
\nThe challenge of finding the right chef with an eye for detail.
\nTaking down the website to encourage users to book on the app.
\nBootstrapping and outsourcing to build the app.
\nHandling health and safety and building it into the program.
\nThe inclusive and flexible nature of Iyabo’s product.
\nChallenges she has faced while building the app.
\nHow Jared and Sami would go about assessing the app and user experience.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
\n
Iyabo Bello on LinkedIn
\n [iKooK Email](info@ikook.co.uk)
\niKooK
\nSami Birnbaum on LinkedIn
\nJared Turner on X
\nJared Turner on LinkedIn
\nthoughtbot
\nthoughtbot on LinkedIn
\nthoughtbot on X
\nGiant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast
\n[Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email](hosts@giantrobots.fm)
\nSupport Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots
How do you build a tool that redefines the real estate game for agents and brokers? Today on the show, host Chad Pytel sits down with Chris Fellows, founder and CEO of Bold Street, to explore how his AI-powered platform is reshaping residential investment for real estate professionals. Originally focused on data analytics for big investors, Bold Street pivoted after the Great Recession to meet the needs of agents and brokers. Chris shares how the platform, developed over 18 months, helps agents master investor math and market analysis, boosting efficiency. The conversation dives into current market dynamics, like the rising costs of leads from platforms such as Zillow, which make Bold Street’s value proposition increasingly vital. Chris also expands on the company’s latest round of fundraising before sharing key lessons on scaling a startup in real estate. For these insights and more, don’t miss this fascinating conversation with Chris Fellows!
\n\nKey Points From This Episode:
\n\nA warm welcome to today’s guest, Chris Fellows, founder and CEO of Bold Street.
\nFounding Bold Street: their initial AI strategy and how it has shifted.
\nHow their software helps agents and brokers be more efficient.
\nKey takeaways from bringing their first product to market.
\nReflections on what could have helped the development process go more quickly.
\nChris and his team’s approach to sales and their general pricing model.
\nA breakdown of their ideal customer and how they are reaching them.
\nWhat they’ve done to address their ideal customers’ biggest objections.
\nUnpacking current market dynamics, from expensive leads to class action lawsuits.
\nHow Bold Street brings value to the current real estate market.
\nThe benefits and challenges of running a business in such a disrupted market.
\nReflections on their current fundraising efforts versus their previous round.
\nLessons on scaling a startup both locally and through internet marketing.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
\n\nChris Fellows on LinkedIn
\n[Chris Fellows' email](chris@boldstreet.ai)
\nBold Street
\nChad Pytel on LinkedIn
\nChad Pytel on X
\nthoughtbot
\nthoughtbot on LinkedIn
\nthoughtbot on X
\nGiant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast
\n[Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email](hosts@giantrobots.fm)
\nSupport Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots
What if, instead of asking how to integrate AI into your product, the question was, should you? During this episode, Jared Turner and Will Larry interview Senior Product Manager at thoughtbot and Founderland Startup Mentor, Bethan Ashley, who shares her insights and advice on how and when to leverage AI tooling. Sharing her career journey leading up to this point, Bethan makes the key distinction between project management and product management, and why this is essential to understand. Next, you’ll hear about her views on the importance of talking to customers about your products and the different ways to reach them effectively. We get into some of the classic reasons that products fail, the appropriate time to bring in a product manager, and a few of the techniques, prompts, and exercises that Bethan favors when mentoring others. Join us as we unpack how to avoid common pitfalls, discuss practical steps to overcome the fear of failure, and share advice for those seeking to put AI tooling into their product. Thanks for tuning in.
\n\nKey Points From This Episode:
\n\nFrom building bespoke apps for companies to product management, mentorship, and more: Bethan Ashley’s career journey.
\nDistinguishing between project management and product management.
\nWhy talking to your customers is fundamental to successful products.
\nSome of the many different ways to reach customers.
\nClassic reasons that products fail.
\nHow to identify the point at which a product manager has become a necessity.
\nBethan’s path to mentorship through Founderland.
\nThe Speedy Eights exercise that she uses to prompt ideas.
\nAdvice to avoid common pitfalls: just get started.
\nExploring the obstacle created by the fear of failure.
\nStrategies from the book The Mom Test.
\nInsights on AI in the day-to-day product management space.
\nAdvice for those seeking to put AI tooling into their product.
\nSpicy takes on product management.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
\n\nBethan Ashley on LinkedIn
\nFounderland
\nCustomer Discovery Playbook
\nThe Mom Test
\nGamma
\nGemini
\nLoom
\nFigma
\nMotion
\nWIP is waste
\nJared Turner on X
\nJared Turner on LinkedIn
\nWill Larry on X
\nWill Larry on LinkedIn
\nthoughtbot
\nthoughtbot on LinkedIn
\nthoughtbot on X
\nGiant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast
\n[Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email](hosts@giantrobots.fm)
\nSupport Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots
Could our inability to agree be holding us back from achieving meaningful social progress? What if AI could help us "fight better,” not by winning arguments but by resolving conflicts in ways that benefit our communities, businesses, and relationships? Flank’s innovative technology offers just that: a smarter, more empathetic approach to conflict resolution that could transform how we engage with one another. Today, we’re joined by Flank founder, CJ Tayeh, a human rights lawyer turned growth marketer turned social innovator. With a mission to address inequalities and power imbalances, especially around money, she explains how Flank’s AI companion acts as a mediator to foster trust and communication. We explore the different user experiences Flank serves, the careful research and development that went into its creation, and how joining Flank’s community can revolutionize conflict resolution. CJ also shares the challenges the startup faces, the role of interaction design in addressing them, and why high-quality data is crucial for effective AI-driven solutions. Don’t miss this fascinating conversation with serial innovator, CJ Tayeh!
\n\nKey Points From This Episode:
\nAn overview of CJ’s journey into the emerging AI startup space.
\nHow growing up in a high-conflict family has informed her work as a social innovator.
\nThe problem Flank is focused on and how it aims to solve that problem with AI.
\nPerspectives on conflict resolution and the impact of joining Flank’s community.
\nHow Flank’s AI companion acts as a mediator to foster communication and trust.
\nDifferent kinds of user experiences that Flank aims to cater to.
\nThe amount of time, effort, and care that went into research and development.
\nChallenges that Flank faces and how interaction design can address them.
\nWhy machine learning models are only as good as the data you train them with.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
\nFlank
\nCJ Tayeh on LinkedIn
\nCJ Tayeh on X
\nthoughtbot
\nthoughtbot on LinkedIn
\nthoughtbot on X
\nGiant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast
\n[Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email](hosts@giantrobots.fm)
\nSupport Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots
What happens when competition goes from being a driver of success to a source of division and exclusion? In today’s episode, Chad is joined by Dr. Justin Key, Founder of Black Theorem Consulting, to unpack societal divisions driven by social and economic status. Dr. Key is an accomplished consultant, speaker, and thought leader with expertise in helping organizations achieve growth and innovation through data-driven strategies. He is the founder of Black Theorem Consulting, a firm specializing in harnessing the power of diversity and technology to solve complex business challenges. In our conversation, we unpack today’s topic through the lens of the products and services developers bring to market. We discuss the hyper-competitive nature of society, the impacts of toxic competition, real-world examples of rigid and fluid drivers of division, and why we should not be afraid to discuss race. Explore how digital products and services can drive change on a global scale, how designers and developers can be a part of that change, and why developers need to check their biases when building digital technology. He shares his motivation for starting Black Theorem Consulting, what the company focuses on, and how it is helping drive change. He also shares how he stays motivated, the types of industries Black Theorem Consulting serves, and how you can contribute to a better world. Join us as we untangle systemic societal problems and how to reflect the world you serve in your product or service with Dr. Justin Key!
\n\nKey Points From This Episode:
\nLearn how social and economic status divides society and creates division.
\nDiscover how the impacts of exclusion compound into larger societal problems.
\nFind out the difference between healthy and unhealthy competition.
\nUncover the common misconceptions about power and wealth in society.
\nHear how societal divisions have played a role in the decline of mental health.
\nExplore how the societal structure of America compares to other countries.
\nFind out why race cannot be ignored when discussing social divisions.
\nUnderstand the significance of considering race in discussions about social division.
\nPositive ways digital products and services can bridge the gap and drive change.
\nWays technology creates obstacles between different socio-economic groups.
\nSteps developers can take to ensure that technology is inclusive and accessible.
\nBackground about Black Theorem Consulting and the services it provides.
\nHow inclusion and equity apply to developers and the development process.
\nFinal takeaways and how to find out more about Black Theorem and Dr. Key.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
\nDr. Justin Key
\nDr. Justin Key on LinkedIn
\nDr. Justin Key on YouTube
\nBlack Theorem Consulting
\n[Gracie's Corner](www.youtube.com/@graciescorner)
\nChad Pytel on LinkedIn
\nChad Pytel on Mastodon
\nthoughtbot
\nthoughtbot on LinkedIn
\nthoughtbot on X
\nGiant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast
\n[Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email](hosts@giantrobots.fm)
\nSupport Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots
Since its inception in 2017, Sema has been improving outcomes for users, companies, and developers by providing automated tools to assess code. During this episode, we are joined by Sema Founder and CEO, Matt Van Itallie. Matt discusses five reasons why you should know how much generative AI is used in your code, from the capacity to increase the quantity, quality, and maintainability to intellectual property risk. These also include exit risks. Next, we explore how this is detected, how it can be solved, and the advantages of looking at code. Next, we explore the origins of Sema and how Matt sourced his co-founders, consider his thoughts on open source, and why it matters to know how much generative AI is used in your code. Hear advice on where to begin, how much to prioritize precision, and why it is imperative to make generative AI your own. Tune in today to hear all this and more.
\n\nKey Points From This Episode:
\n\nIntroducing Sema CEO and Founder Matt Van Itallie.
\nHow the work is distributed among different target customers: companies, financial and strategic buyers.
\nWhy Sema is language agnostic and what it does instead.
\nMatt’s belief that the fundamental health of a software product depends on the team.
\nUnderstanding key person risk and the concept of golden handcuffs.
\nHow Matt’s background set him up to easily understand the world of coding.
\nWhy the combination of manual implementation and automation via Sema is most effective.
\nThe process behind turning the idea into a product with the University of Michigan and a Founder from AngelList.
\nWhy he does not recommend using his approach.
\nThe single biggest focus: code inspection and due diligence.
\nUsing open source code and the risks involved.
\nFive sets of reasons why it matters to know how much generative AI is used in your code.
\nHow this is detected and how it can be solved.
\nAdvice on where to begin, how precise to be, and more.
\nLeveraging the expertise of Co-Founder Brendan Cody-Kenny to build Sema.
\nWhy it is imperative to make generative AI your own.
\nFree advisory AI counsels that Matt and Sema have set up.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
\n\nMatt Van Itallie on LinkedIn
\nMatt Van Itallie on X
\n[Matt Van Itallie Email](mvi@sema.com)
\nSema
\nUniversity of Michigan
\nAngelList
\nCoPilot
\nChad Pytel on LinkedIn
\nthoughtbot
\nthoughtbot on LinkedIn
\nthoughtbot on X
\nGiant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast
\n[Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email](hosts@giantrobots.fm)
\nSupport Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots
What if diagnosing complex joint disorders could be as precise and personalized as a fingerprint? Today, Will sits down with Nazgol Tavabi and Mohammadreza Movahhedi to discuss their journey of transforming cutting-edge research into a revolutionary AI-powered platform for diagnosing joint disorders.
\n\nNazgol and Mohammadreza are the co-founders of BonePixel, a healthcare startup focused on using AI and big data for the diagnosis and treatment planning of joint disorders. In our conversation, we unpack the origins of BonePixel, the challenges of building a healthcare startup, and how they are leveraging AI to make patient-specific treatment planning more accurate and efficient. Explore how its data-driven process facilitates decision-making for surgeons, how they were able to commercialize the software, and the positive impact it is making on patients’ lives.
\n\nThey share details about BonePixel’s current state of development, the regulatory hurdles, and their surgeon-centric approach to software development. We discuss the complexities of securing funding and their approach to fostering a healthy company culture. Gain insights into how they make their software inclusive, the ethical aspects of BonePixels development, why human involvement is crucial, and more. Join us to learn how BonePixel is transforming orthopedic care and pushing the boundaries of what’s possible with AI with Nazgol Tavabi and Mohammadreza Movahhedi!
\n\nKey Points From This Episode:
\n\nBackground about the development of BonePixel’s innovative software.
\nLearn about BonePixel and how it leverages data to improve decision-making.
\nHear about BonePixel’s research origins at Harvard Medical School.
\nHow Harvard Medical School is facilitating the commercialization of BonePixel.
\nUncover the role that machine learning and AI play in BonePixel’s software.
\nFind out how their collaborators have acted as data sources for their models.
\nThey share details about upcoming features and software additions.
\nDiscover the core values of BonePixel that are driving its development.
\nWhat got them interested in applying their research skills in healthcare.
\nExplore the ethical considerations that need to be taken into account.
\nWhy human involvement during BonePixels implementation is vital.
\nHear their opinion on regulating the development of AI-based technologies.
\nLessons from their careers, final takeaways, and how to get in contact with them.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
\n\nIs it time to rethink how we approach hiring? The traditional recruitment process often fails to capture the true potential of candidates, relying heavily on outdated methods like résumés and generic job descriptions. In this episode, Will sits down with Brian Glover, Co-founder and CEO of Previewed, to unpack the revolutionary interplay between technology and the recruitment sector. Previewed aims to revolutionize how job seekers connect with potential employers by allowing them to showcase their skills and experiences in a more personalized and impactful way. It leverages cutting-edge technology to create a platform that helps candidates stand out in a competitive job market, ensuring that everyone has a fair shot at landing their dream job. In our conversation, we discuss how the Previewed platform creates an immersive, streamlined, and intelligent solution for recruiters and candidates. Learn about the innovative technology behind Previewed’s platform and how it is revolutionizing the traditional recruitment landscape. Discover the inspiration behind Previewed, its approach to career life-cycle, and how it empowers the candidate. We unpack the company’s skill-based assessment method, the ‘gamification’ of recruitment tools, how Previewed’s platform helps with retention, identifying gaps in a candidate’s skills, and much more. Join us as we explore where AI meets talent acquisition and how it turns purpose into a career with Brian Glover. Tune in now!
\n\nKey Points From This Episode:
\n\nHow he uses prayer and meditation to keep him grounded as an entrepreneur.
\nOvercoming the mental hurdles of being a founder and business owner.
\nPreviewed’s platform and how it leverages AI to enhance the recruitment process.
\nIssues in the traditional job search and hiring process that Previewed solves.
\nDiscover why aligning a candidate’s job description with their purpose is so vital.
\nReasons for Previewed’s skill-based method and how it assesses candidates.
\nThe benefits of Previewed’s skill-based approach for candidates and recruiters.
\nBrian shares how his hustler background growing up led him to become an entrepreneur.
\nHear about Previewed’s roots and the many challenges he overcame starting it.
\nRecommendations for budding entrepreneurs and what Brian is currently focusing on.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
\n\nBrian Glover on LinkedIn
\nPreviewed
\nWill Larry on X
\nWill Larry on LinkedIn
\nVictoria Guido on X
\nVictoria Guido on LinkedIn
\nthoughtbot
\nthoughtbot on LinkedIn
\nthoughtbot on X
\nGiant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast
\n[Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email](hosts@giantrobots.fm)
\nSupport Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots
Company culture plays a fundamental role in the success of your organization. Unfortunately, it’s not always clear what methods will lead to optimal outcomes. Top research shows an alarming gap between a company’s stated culture and what employees report about their experience working there. But what if one could harness the power of AI to close this gap? Today on the show, we’re joined by Elie Rashbass, CEO & Co-founder at ScultureAI, a startup developing innovative solutions that shape organizational culture from the ground up. He tells us about the groundbreaking work being done by ScultureAI and how they are leveraging AI to coach everyday interactions between internal staff members and external stakeholders. We discuss the endless interactions that shape company culture, why it matters, and how Elie and his team are helping companies use AI to embed their culture into actualized, organization-wide behavior. To learn more about how AI is used to transform company culture, tune in today!
\n\nKey Points From This Episode:
\n\nHow Elie’s corporate background instilled an appreciation for good company culture.
\nCo-founding ScultureAI with his father and what led them into the AI startup space.
\nHis father’s experience fostering strong company cultures and his extensive AI research.
\nThe significant gap between what companies say their culture is and what it actually is.
\nWhy company culture matters, from employee well-being to organizational success.
\nWhat to consider when selecting and defining your company values.
\nCommon challenges organizations face when implementing company culture.
\nHow ScultureAI is helping companies embed company culture from the ground up.
\nTheir groundbreaking AI-powered behavioral coach and examples of its workflow integration.
\nKey challenges they’ve encountered working with LLMs and how they’ve addressed these.
\nWhat you can expect from the ScultureAI demo and how to get in touch.
\nAn overview of hiring as a potential use case for their behavioral AI coach.
\nHow ScultureAI prioritizes and safeguards user data and privacy.
\nOvercoming challenges as innovators in the space and advice to other leaders.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
\n\nElie Rashbass on LinkedIn
\nScultureAI
\nDonald Sull
\nSami Birnbaum
\nSami Birnbaum on LinkedIn
\n[Svenja Schäfer](svenjaschaefer.com)
\nSvenja Schäfer on LinkedIn
\nWill Larry on X
\nWill Larry on LinkedIn
\nVictoria Guido on X
\nVictoria Guido on LinkedIn
\nthoughtbot
\nthoughtbot on LinkedIn
\nthoughtbot on X
\nGiant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast
\n[Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email](hosts@giantrobots.fm)
\nSupport Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots
By addressing the way that families hire, manage, and pay in-home care professionals, Clara Home Care is reimagining the way that home care is delivered in America, and Jon Levinson is at the helm. He joins us today to share his personal experiences with in-home care that led him to research the industry, identify the challenges, and co-found Clara. Hear how Jon was able to draw on his background in product management for TripAdvisor and Uber to pioneer his company, what it was like to develop early iterations of the product, and how all this resulted in creating the first-ever caregiver-specific payroll platform. We touch on finding the appropriate market, creating foundational code, and the importance of setting best practices to support scaling and changing. Jon also describes the critical role of thoughtbot in setting Clara Home Care up for scaling success. To finish, Jon shares some of the exciting opportunities that exist in the realm of care management, and how Clara is already taking advantage of them. Thanks for listening!
\n\nKey Points From This Episode:
\n\nIntroducing Jon Levinson, Co-Founder and CEO at Clara Home Care.
\nThe role of thoughtbot in bringing Clara to life.
\nA personal experience that led Jon to pioneer Clara Home Care.
\nResults of researching the specific problems faced in the broader industry.
\nHis background in product management at TripAdvisor, Uber, and more.
\nThe engineer who became his technical co-founder.
\nFundraising choices and investment during his early journey.
\nThree consumer problems that care agencies do not adequately address.
\nWhy using an agency is still beneficial in comparison to hiring independently.
\nDeveloping the first version of the product.
\nIdentifying the opportunity to pioneer the first caregiver-specific payroll platform.
\nThe challenge of finding people seeking a caregiving product.
\nSetting foundational code structured to scale and the role of Thoughtbot in this process.
\nReaching a critical mass by building a strong grounding through relationships.
\nBalancing building the marketplace, solving discovery, and investing in caregiving technology.
\nFlexible metrics for success in a given marketplace.
\nWhy caregivers still favor agencies over independent work.
\nUnderstanding how emotionally taxing the caregiver coordination role can be.
\nFeatures that support the relationship with long-term care insurance providers and care management.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
\n\nJon Levinson on X
\nJon Levinson on LinkedIn
\n[Jon Levinson Email](jon@clarahomecare.com)
\nClara Home Care
\nClara Home Care on Facebook
\nClara Home Care on LinkedIn
\nThoughtbot
\nWill Larry on X
\nWill Larry on LinkedIn
\nVictoria Guido on X
\nVictoria Guido on LinkedIn
\nthoughtbot
\nthoughtbot on LinkedIn
\nthoughtbot on X
\nGiant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast
\n[Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email](hosts@giantrobots.fm)
\nSupport Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots
In this episode of Giant Robots Smashing into Other Giant Robots (On Tour!), hosts Sami Birnbaum and Svenja Schäfer are joined by Karishma Gupta, the Founder and CEO of Eslando Circular Fashion. Eslando is a fashion company dedicated to changing the clothing industry through circular economy principles and textile recycling. Its mission is to simplify recycling and ensure compliance with EU regulations by connecting brands, consumers, and recyclers, fostering transparency and efficiency in the fashion industry. In today’s conversation, Karishma delves into her company’s innovative Digital Product Passport and how it’s revolutionizing the fashion and textile industries. We discuss how her company helps the right material get to the right recycler using data and leveraging AI to map the process. Tune in to explore how the circular economy applies to the fashion industry, the current recycling gaps, what motivates fashion brands to be more sustainable, and how Eslando is reducing the carbon footprint of the textile supply chain!
\n\nKey Points From This Episode:
\n\nBackground on Karishma and what led her to start a tech company.
\nHow recycling in fashion differs from other industries that recycle.
\nAn outline of the biggest recycling hurdles facing the fashion industry.
\nThe complex range of materials in clothes and the problems they create.
\nKarishma’s transition from the fashion industry to founding a tech-based company.
\nSome of the materials in clothes that are endlessly recyclable.
\nDetails about the Digital Product Passport and what it offers the supply chain.
\nBenefits and costs of sustainable regulations and solutions for fashion brands.
\nWays that Eslando is monetizing its various solutions.
\nThe value proposition the Digital Product Passport offers consumers.
\nHow long it took to create and build a workable prototype.
\nWhat Karishma has planned for the future of Eslando Circular Fashion.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
\n\nKarishma Gupta on LinkedIn
\nKarishma Gupta on X
\nEslando Circular Fashion
\nInnovate UK
\nCarbon13
\nSami Birnbaum
\nSami Birnbaum on LinkedIn
\n[Svenja Schäfer](svenjaschaefer.com)
\nSvenja Schäfer on LinkedIn
\nWill Larry on X
\nWill Larry on LinkedIn
\nVictoria Guido on X
\nVictoria Guido on LinkedIn
\nthoughtbot
\nthoughtbot on LinkedIn
\nthoughtbot on X
\nGiant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast
\n[Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email](hosts@giantrobots.fm)
\nSupport Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots
Giant Robots On Tour Hosts Sami Birnbaum and Jared Turner introduce Sheng-Hung Lee, a designer, PhD researcher at MIT AgeLab, and board director at the Industrial Designers Society of America. Sheng-Hung shares his journey into design and engineering, emphasizing the importance of interpreting signals in design and the evolving role of designers from problem-solvers to culture shapers. He discusses how designers must now consider broader, systematic issues such as climate change and aging. Sheng-Hung explains that design is a teachable and essential life skill, highlighting the significance of personal experiences and failures in learning design. He elaborates on the concept of signals, explaining that they represent different perspectives and interpretations in design, which are crucial in addressing complex problems.
\n\nThe conversation shifts to practical design applications and Sheng-Hung's work in smart homes for aging populations. He discusses the integration of various smart systems and the importance of designing for different life stages rather than specific age groups. Jared and Sami also engage Sheng-Hung in discussing the worst and best-designed products, where Sheng-Hung mentions his initial skepticism but eventual appreciation for facial recognition technology.
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nSAMI: Hello again, and this is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, the Giant Robots On Tour Series coming to you from Europe, West Asia, and Africa, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Sami Birnbaum.
\n\nJARED: And I'm your other host, Jared Turner.
\n\nSAMI: If you are wondering, which you might have been for a while now, where are Will or Victoria, well, make sure you find one of our previous podcasts where we introduce the Giant Robots on Tour Series, and you'll understand why you're hearing myself and Jared a little bit more frequently than before. In that podcast, we throw random icebreakers at each other, and we find out that Svenja does not like online banking. And if you haven't listened to our previous podcast with our guest, Ishani, check that out as quick as you can and find out why AI is compared to babies.
\n\nJoining us today is Sheng-Hung Lee, a Designer and PhD Researcher at MIT AgeLab and Board Director at the Industrial Designers Society of America. Sheng-Hung, I'm going to level with you. I've done my research. I've done my due diligence on the guests that we have on this podcast, and I'm exhausted.
\n\nSHENG-HUNG: [laughs]
\n\nSAMI: I've looked through your own website, and I've read as much as I can find about you. And between education, experience, awards, scholarships, there is an incredible amount of things that you're involved in that you get up to. And it really wasn't good for my own self-esteem just to see how much you have going on.
\n\nSHENG-HUNG: [laughs]
\n\nSAMI: Jared, a question for you first. Bear in mind, the only thing I've ever been awarded is my own driving license. So, our guest, Sheng-Hung, how many awards do you think he has currently listed on his website? Give a guess.
\n\nJARED: Oh gosh, I remember looking at the page, and I remember having to scroll.
\n\nSAMI: [laughs] Yeah, you had to scroll.
\n\nJARED: Let's pick 33.
\n\nSAMI: 33. Do you know what? It's not even close. Okay, he's nearly double that. So, he's up at 60 awards that are currently listed. So, we're talking about a guest that you guys do not want to miss. And you want to make sure that you get into this conversation. I always like to go back to the start with my guests. So, everyone has a story. And I'm interested, Sheng-Hung, in your journey and what led you into the world of design and engineering.
\n\nSHENG-HUNG: My personal definition of design is, like, decoding signals. So, everything in our lives, like, we have different types of signals. How do we interpret the signal? How do we, like, understand, or perceive different types of signals in our lives? And I feel design is more like...not just creation. It is creation, for sure, but also about curation. I feel like, for me, problem-solving or, like, problem-defining is really interesting. And especially you mentioned, like, my very early stage as a designer, the reason I submitted my work to get an award is because I want to show my problem-solving skill.
\n\nAnd I realize nowadays, like, the problem is too complicated. It's not just about solving problems, right? I mean, I feel design is more bigger than that, especially now most of the problems are systematic and complex. Climate change, right? Like, you think about aging, and you think about all this, like, sustainable issues. I feel like designers, like, for me, starting from problem solver, as engineer, and now more I've become like a translator, curator, or even, like, a culture shaper. How do you shape the culture you want, right?
\n\nEspecially now, like, AI it's just, like...that really let me rethink about my role as designer, you know, because everyone can have tons of ideas, but the truth is, like, we have so many ideas, but do you know what good taste is about? Do you know what the good qualities of life's about? So, you have to have some personal experiences to really help people to understand or curate the vision in the future.
\n\nSAMI: That's really interesting. I struggle to dress my kids in the morning from a design perspective, right? I don't get colors, and I don't understand necessarily how they match and how to get things working. In fact, sometimes I'll dress my kids only to find that my wife has redressed the kids. Things are that bad at home.
\n\nDo you think then design is something which can be taught, or is it something, like, innate? Is it something, in your own experiences, that it's kind of part of your nature? So, you see the world differently to someone like myself or Jared sees the world. Or could that be something which we could pick up on, you know, and learn about?
\n\nSHENG-HUNG: Yeah, I definitely think design can be teachable. It's skillable. And I feel like, yeah, people talk about this is, like, a hardcore skill. It's a soft skill. No, I think design is a life skill. It's a human skill. So, that includes like, for example, like, yeah, how do you choose the color? How do you choose the clothes for kids? But also about, like, how do you celebrate the quality of lives, right? How do you, like, have better, like, qualities?
\n\nAnd I feel like, I don't know, life skill means, like, team building, creative leadership, knows people, listening to people. And, for me, that's part of design because you're decoding different signals. You understand your life. You perceive different types of noises. Or how do you resonate with other people? And that's a life skill, I think. And I also feel most of the design skills I learned is actually not from school. It's from, like, personal life failure [laughs].
\n\nSAMI: That's really interesting. I just want to jump in because I don't know if I fully understand what you mean by signals. Can you just elaborate on that a little bit more? And then, I will bring you back up on personal failures.
\n\nSHENG-HUNG: Signal is like different ways of seeing things, right? So, for example, like, if I go to wait in line for a free bagel, right? You share this with your friends. What I see is it's a free bagel. But what my friends see is like, oh, probably, like, I don't need to wait in line and so many challenges. You know, I have to, like, oh, why should I get this? But I see very clearly I want a free bagel. So, these are different. It's the same thing but different message mixed up, right?
\n\nAnd then, for me, I see design, like, it happens every day. It's a life skill. For example, like, I saw the challenges, but what if we think another perspective to rethink about what kind of challenge [inaudible 06:38] or reframe the right questions, right? And all this, like, mixed all together, it feels like it's not just about drawing beautiful sketches or rendering sexy, you know, ideas. It's all about, like, how do you frame these challenges? How do you look at this? Can you see the question from social aspect, from cultural aspect, or you just see this as a solution-driven approach?
\n\nJARED: In some cases, I feel, there is an element of subjectivity to the designs, but then we also want to measure the success of a design. Do you have any tips for, like, how you go about putting numbers to what defines success for a particular design?
\n\nSHENG-HUNG: This is such a great question, especially now my research focus is really on services, you know, service design, experience design. Like, how do you quantify this, right? For example, three of us we go to the restaurant, and I feel it's really, really great restaurant. And probably some people feel no, that's not really great. And then, how do we quantify this, right?
\n\nAnd then, I feel it's sometimes, like, really by personal preferences. It's hard to measure. Maybe there will be some sort of, like, a principle direction or criteria we can follow, so, for example, service quality metrics or something, like, based on people's life experiences. I feel it's hard to measure, especially now the design challenge the question it's really complicated.
\n\nSome people talk about demographic. How do you, like, [inaudible 08:09] design? Like, for example, a participant design process, right? Or, like, inclusiveness. People talk about equity, power, power dynamic. And I think it's less of a measure or quantify. It's more about do you show your respect? Can we be more inclusive in this process? Can we really engage or integrate multiple voices in this design process?
\n\nAnd I feel like that kind of shows the flexibility, also, the real flexibility of the design, not just that, oh, we look for one single solution. Because, most of the time, we actually want to design for a solution, but, actually, I feel now the shift is from we try to build the condition to let people land on this condition and solve the problem. So, in the end, we'll be like, yeah, we landed here, and we can solve the problem together collectively. So, something I feel a little bit different, but that's a great question. It's open-ended. Yeah.
\n\nJARED: Yeah. Thank you. There's a lot to think about there. I want to bring it back to failure because this is something I think about a lot in terms of teaching and learning from history versus learning from your own failure.
\n\nWe have, like, thousands of years of history of failure. You think we have made all the mistakes already, and, oh, it should be easy, right? All we need to do is teach all of the young generation about all of this failure, and then they'll remember not to do it. But in reality, it doesn't really work that way. I find the strength of the argument is oftentimes weak compared to failing yourself and really deeply learning that lesson. I'm curious about your thoughts on that. And then, I'm also curious to hear about some of your, let's call them, best failures.
\n\nSHENG-HUNG: I personally feel like people fail. They fail forward, not backward. So, even if you fail, you move a little bit. It depends on how crazy, right, and how fast you fail. It's an iterative process. The reason I say learning from failure because from traditional Asian family, Asian students, right? Probably in the past, I would say I raised my hand. I want to learn, or I ask senior people. I want to learn. But, actually, more than that, it says, "I want to experience. I want to be part of it," right? So, you're not becoming the manager because you learn to become a...no, you're in that position, and you learn to be a manager.
\n\nSo, I learned that mindset when I worked at IDEO. And one of the senior design directors told me, "No, you should say, 'I want to experience.'" So, that means that you have fully immersed experiences. And one of the best examples for me is that the first two years I worked at IDEO and IDEO Asia, supporting projects in Tokyo, Shanghai, Singapore offices, and sometimes European, like, office work; the first two years, my confidence almost collapsed. I have to collect my confidence. It's so hard because I'm eager to learn so many things. I didn't beat myself. And then, after two years, I met an amazing, like, design mentor. And I started the things I'm good at as product designer, a tangible designer. I start as product-focused and thinking about whole design process.
\n\nAnd then, I start to collect my confidence. And I realized every single project at IDEO or in my life it's a vehicle, you know. And then, you always connect the dots when you're looking backwards. And you realize, oh, this is failure. Let me know what do you mean by client management? What do you mean by, like, teamworking? Because everyone is from so diverse background. And everyone says, "I'm a designer," but they have different interpretation. And how do you communicate it, right? And how do you keep the conversation transparent and also effective, and how do you empower people? And I feel because of that connect the dots process, also, all the things I want to learn, I want to experience it really helps me to grow at the third year or second year in IDEO.
\n\nAnd that really makes me think about, oh, wow, I didn't know. I failed completely. And that's really healthy, for me, because you become very strong. At some point, I started to realize, oh, what do you mean by...what does it mean by design consultancy business? What we can sell. Where's our capacity, our limitation? You know, other than just, oh, everything's, like, imaginative conceptual. I kind of know what happened, and I know the boundary. And I know how can I empower people and also the client.
\n\nSAMI: Yeah, embracing failure is a real strength. At thoughtbot, we kind of...if we're developing products and we're, let's say, designing or coding, whether websites or applications, we have this concept of failing fast. So, the faster you can fail, the quicker you can iterate towards the right solution. And that's something which is difficult to embrace because the first time you do it, I want this to be perfect, and I want to build it in the way that it works. But, actually, you'll spend a lot of time trying to get towards that perfection, and it's much better to ship faster, fail faster, and then get towards the solution.
\n\nI noticed as well that...well, I read that the one thing you've been recently working on is designed for the aging population, so more specifically, smart homes for the aging populations. Shout out to my parents if they're looking for a smart home. Sorry, mom and dad.
\n\nSHENG-HUNG: [laughs]
\n\nSAMI: I've always found, especially my generation, so I'm about...I'm not about; I am 32 years [chuckles] old. So yeah, there's always been, like, a big gap between kind of my generation, the way we've engaged with technology products, the way my parents' generation have been able to. And I imagine a future where my kids are running around in VR headsets, and I'm still, you know, using a basic laptop. I would love to know more about your work kind of in this area and designing for a different sector of the population.
\n\nSHENG-HUNG: My master thesis and my master project is focused on redesigning, like, smart footwear for aging population, and then that's part of the smart home ecosystem. And I was actually impressed and surprised. It's like most of the sponsors or clients we talk about, like, people [inaudible 14:38] to think about just the product level, so smart like [inaudible 14:43], smart like a door, or smart like, you know, like a bed or a smart, like, alarm clock.
\n\nPeople start to think about how can we integrate all this system together? Because, like, for example, if you bought Amazon, you know, versus Apple and all these different devices, the platform is really a problem because the products cannot communicate with each other. And we want to make sure all the products can communicate and support you, or, like, they can at least receive your data or information to give the appropriate response.
\n\nSo, the smart home project starts to think about from ideas to become more like platform integration. IKEA is the best example, right? Like, I think two years ago, they talk about, yeah, they launched their first app, right? Everything is, yeah, it seems like, oh, what's the big deal about this, right? No, but you think of this from the intention perspective to actually connect the whole system together because they want to make sure their internal designer, developer they really can think through their own internal system to make sure everything's connected, interconnected, not just, oh, you do a part of this. We sell this to a certain Asian, and it didn't really connect.
\n\nSo, I feel like when we designed it, it's really from the system perspective to talk about a smart home. And then, regarding of, like, design across [inaudible 16:04] generation, that's really important, actually, because especially now I'm focused on design for retirement. And I shifted to design for longevity. And then, the cool thing about this is, like, we think about our life in terms of age, but, actually, now we need to think about our life in terms of different life stages, different lifestyle.
\n\nThe book called "Stage (Not Age)", means, like, now we cannot even describe people above 100 years old or 85 years. So, we call them future hood, right? So, like, different life stages. And I feel like that really impacts, as designers, the way we design products or interfaces, right? And it has to evolve with people. When you say, for example, if we have, like, a smart, like, a robot in our home, they have to know your personal routine. And you kind of grow, right? For example, oh, I get older. I move slower, or my mobility is different, and it changes. How does that mean to our product or our smart services?
\n\nAnd I feel like across different generations, it's really thinking about design for different people in different life stages. And that's really important, not just about financial planning or about your future education, family, community, right? Now people are probably thinking about aging in place. My parents just bought a second home. They're thinking about retirement life. And so, these are things that really impact all aspects of life. And I feel like the idea of one solution for all the era is kind of over because we have to think about not just one solution, multiple solution tailor-made for multiple different people in different life stages.
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\n\nJARED: And, Sheng-Hung, in one of your articles that I was reading about design for longevity, you sort of say that design for aging isn't just about designing for older people, but rather, I think one of your colleagues asked this question, which I really liked, which is, how can inclusive methods build elegant design solutions that work for all? And I find that a really aspirational goal.
\n\nBut one of the things, say, at thoughtbot, when they're building a product, so we often talk about targeting a specific niche or a specific user base because then we can really optimize for them. And so, you're designing something that's elegant, and that works for all. It doesn't sound very easy. It sounds like a good challenge. And I'm curious about how do you go about that, and do you have any examples you can you can share?
\n\nSHENG-HUNG: Design for all elegantly also seamlessly. Optimize everyone's needs or, like, design process. I feel...because my topic is focused on financial planning, right? And I think about everyone's income level is different. Their investable income asset is also different. We have a different situation, right? Our family issue, the healthcare condition is also different. And I feel like that, also, if we look at this question, we should think about, okay, how do we define design for all, right? Is it universal design, or is it inclusive design?
\n\nI think there are definitely some, like, basic or fundamental, like, foundation or criteria we need to meet. Like, for example, human-centered, right? Or, like, we think about accessibility for certain technology. What's the threshold for a certain way of use the technology or product? That could be, like, a universal or, like, basic. Like I said, people's life stages are so different. And can we really make sure our product or interfaces is always dynamic, always change? Design for transformation, right? And I feel the ideas of changing is kind of scaring for most people. Because you don't want to, like, you woke up, and you realize your iPhone just update the whole interfaces, and you suddenly don't know how to use it [laughs]. It changed too dramatically.
\n\nWhat I mean by change is like, it's a gradual integration process. And I feel that's kind of beautiful. Like, for example, the way I use my bicycle, the biking, right? They can ultimately adjust my speed, recharging, or understand my personal preferences. That could be something I think is powerful for future for providing the right solution, yeah. But also, it's a benefit of this, but also, there's downsides. Like, maybe because of that, we all live our own personal bubbles pretty well, right? Like, oh, yeah, yeah, I read a newspaper. No, you read the newspaper that I curated for you. So, somehow, the information started different [laughs]. So, there's a gap, but I don't know. It's very cool. It's very great, great question. I think there's still...I don't have the exact same answer, but I feel that could be potential for now. Yeah.
\n\nJARED: Yeah, I really like that. So, it's not just a one-size-fits-all-all, but, like, it's a sort of an elegant transformation over the course of someone's life. We've discussed a few different things like design for longevity. You touched on there, as we were speaking, human-centered design. I know you've made a distinction of humanity-centered design as well, and there's also life-centered design. I wonder if you could give us and our listeners a little rapid-fire explainer of each of them.
\n\nSHENG-HUNG: Like, when we talk about human-centered design, right? Like, it's, like, a buzzword. And everyone talks about HCD, and most people think, oh, if you got a post-it note, you're, like, a HCD designer. No, like, what does that mean, right [laughs]? It's very cliché. And they're like, oh, yeah, all these, like, HCD designers bring the post-it notes with Sharpies and go to facilitate tons of workshops, and they sit and know people. And I feel it's more than that, right?
\n\nHuman-centered is really, like, put yourself, designers, in the shoes of clients, users, customers, and participants to know their needs, their desire and address their pain point. And I think for human-centered design like Don Norman said in his latest book, it's not just about design as a discipline. It also covers, like, politics, covers, like, ethical issue, culture. It's broader. And, for me, the simplest version is, like, you design with care. You design with human temperature. We create technology with human temperature. That means that we're now for this technology to [inaudible 23:13] technology. We know why we need that technology.
\n\nSo, for example, if you provide the, like, the cell phone to the developing countries, you probably don't want to send, like, the latest cell phone. You want to send them, like, the adequate technology. What I mean by that is like, it's very, like, stereotype, but I'm trying to explain the idea is like, oh, Nokia could be a great option at this point, for example. You can communicate. You don't need, like, crazy, like, AR VR function. You at least can communicate. So, it's adequate. I think that kind of lens is, like, you think about the culture, the needs, economic, social status. And then, you can start to move on and upgrade the devices.
\n\nAnd I feel like life-centered is even broader. It's like, can you design something to the lens of cats, your pets, your animals? So, it's really like, it's really...it sounds a little bit like a speculative design. But the truth is, like, we can shift our perspective to different kinds of species, cross-species, not just focus on human, because everything we design definitely starts from also for a human being. But now life-centered is like, it's longer, broader. And then, for me, it also means like, we just talk about life-centered. It's like, really think through all different stages of life, not just, like, focus on one single age or a single stage, too specific, too narrow. It's, like, broader.
\n\nSo, when we talk about life-centered design, LCD, we really think about a lot of different systems, framework. What's the model we can follow? You know, so we're also thinking about policy, about power dynamic, government, ethical issues. So, this, I think, like, it's broader, and it's really large. Sometimes it's pretty vague, for sure. We have to use some cases or really think about in different contexts. Context is really important, designed for different contextual knowledges and needs.
\n\nSAMI: Yeah, I think that is actually a really helpful understanding. Myself I don't know anything about those concepts, so to kind of get that theoretical understanding and explanation from yourself is really helpful. In a more practical sense, I have a question, which is a very selfish question. The reason it's a selfish question is because I want to know what do you think? When you look at the world through your designer lenses, what do you think is the worst-designed product you've ever seen or come across? And I think I know the answer to this. I think there is a right answer.
\n\nWhile you have a think, I'll share my answer. I don't know if you have this because you said you're based in Boston at the moment. And I'm showing you because we're on camera, but I will describe it to the listeners as well is what they've done with bottles now is when you open, like, a Coke bottle, for example, all other beverages are available...Coke, if you want to sponsor us [laughter], we're happy just to mention you. When you take the bottle cap off, it's now connected to the top of the bottle.
\n\nSo, someone has decided...now, I understand the reason behind it. They're saying that it's for recycling. So, when you throw your bottle away, make sure the cap goes with the bottle. But someone has sat there, and they've designed the bottles. So, when you take off the cap, it's still connected to the top of the bottle. And countless times, I'm either pouring into a cup or pouring into my mouth. And that cap is getting in the way. So, the liquid kind of goes into that cap, and it spills on me, or it spills on the table. This is an absolute design failure, a catastrophe in my eyes. That's my worst design that I've come across in real life. Do you have anything you can think of that you look at, and you're like, who designed this?
\n\nSHENG-HUNG: This is such a great example because I did have similar experiences when I went to Milan Design Week last year. All the plastic bottle is, like, connected. The cap connects with the bottle. And I didn't know that it's on purpose at the very beginning. I thought, how come it's, like, connected? I want to take it out because it's easier for me to drink. And I realized it's not just this one; all of them is the same [laughs]. Yeah, that's a great example.
\n\nI think, for me, design for failure adapter, for example, you know, adapter, like dongle, right? Like, we have so many different...this guy HDMI cable, the cable for iPhone, and the magnet for my Apple MacBook Pro. That's painful because you try to find, like, when you go to, like, a talk or a speech or try to present something, I think, for me, the easiest way is, like, AirPlay, right, Wi-Fi or Bluetooth to connect to the projector. But in reality, you always need this HDMI cable. And this guy connects with my Mac. There's some problem. It depends on...now I always bring my adapter with me.
\n\nIt's just like, we have that [inaudible 28:04] like, you know, it almost, like, very frequently, if we're meeting, you have to show your screen. How can we design less physical but it's user-friendly, right? People use Mac. People use Apple, use, like, Microsoft. How do you design something like a universal adaptable to everyones, just sharing screen? This is what I need. So, I think this could be one bad design, I think, at this moment [laughs].
\n\nSAMI: Yeah, that's a great example as well, and so frustrating. And I wonder if it's, like, a money-making scheme, you know, everyone has their own chargers. And that's a way kind of they make some income as well on the side. Jared, what have you seen in the world? What's your pet peeve? What really grinds your gears?
\n\nJARED: This was easy for me. It came to me straight away. Any door that has a handle that you can wrap your hand around which signifies it should be pulled that is push. It's just, I mean, what is going on there? It drives me bonkers.
\n\nSHENG-HUNG: [laughs]
\n\nSAMI: That is brilliant. I think it's only fair if we flip the question, right? And then, we say, what's the best thing you've seen designed, right? There must be something out there where you've gone, "Oh, that is so useful. That makes so much sense. Why haven't we done that until now?" And have you kind of...I guess this is for Sheng-Hung, like, have you got any inspiration from that sort of thing?
\n\nSHENG-HUNG: I have to be honest. Like, I really feel like in the past, I'm kind of scared about, like, use your face to unlock your phone. But the more I use it, I feel like, oh my God, this is so convenient. You just look at it. I know it's a bit scary because they have all your biometric data information. I know even you protect under the regular law, but still, I feel like, yeah, it's so seamless connected. And I feel maybe the better answer is like, I feel a great design is, like, to reduce the friction between the transition of devices by devices, right? So, for me, I mean, so interface by interface.
\n\nSo, when I share the data on my phone, what does that mean? From phone to my computer or phone to other people, right? All the different interfaces changing. The less friction, the better. I feel seamless connected. So, you know, AirDrop, super convenient, photos, videos with people, Mac users. But what does that mean for, like, Windows users, right? And so, every platform has their own, like, spec, or criteria. And I feel if the user can feel the seamless friction between these interfaces, for me, that could be a great design solution.
\n\nJARED: I love that answer. And I love that description of reducing friction. It reminds me a little bit of, I think, my favorite book on UX is by Steve Krug, which is "Don't Make Me Think." And it's just all about doing the simplest thing, reducing confusion, overcoming objections, and reducing friction. So, I really love that.
\n\nI do have an answer for this one as well. It's a little bit selfish or focused on my own life. So, I have a dog. She's a Welsh Terrier called Rosie. She's just turned one. Whenever we used to go out, you've got to take water for her if it's a hot day. I always used to take a bottle, whether you could unscrew the top or not, I'm not sure, Sami, and, like, a little bowl to put that in, or you use your hands. And, invariably, she's not going to drink all of the water, so you've got waste. You throw that out. The bag gets wet, all of that.
\n\nSomeone has designed this really cool bottle where the top is actually the bowl. It's an all-in-one. And you press a button; the water goes into the bowl. She drinks. Whatever's left, you press the button again, turn it upright. And the water just flows back in into the rest of the bottle. It's such a simple thing. But, like you say, it just reduces that friction. Anytime a problem no longer exists, manual to automatic cars, fight me, I'm all for it. Well, that's a problem solved. That's less friction. That's beauty in the world.
\n\nSAMI: Yeah, I think it's amazing. When you think about these examples, it really brings out how much of an impact design has. So, you can have the best product in the world, but if you don't get that frictionless design, or you don't get that design that's going to really bring that improvement, it's going to be difficult to make that product a success.
\n\nAnd I think there's some, like, when I think about leaders and innovators in this kind of space, so I know you already mentioned IKEA and I think of Apple. And I don't know the answer to this, and maybe our listeners also wonder, like, how do these companies...they seem to keep getting it right. No matter what happens, they seem to set the trends, and they get their design spot-on, and they innovate in that space. How are they so successful in their design?
\n\nSHENG-HUNG: I think a recent example is like, you know, like, Apple just recently launched the Vision Pro, right? The XR, the goggles. And put the demo time 30 minutes to get in-store experiences. You're booking the demo time with them, the 30 minutes. For me, I wrote an article about it. It is less about the goggle itself. It is about the whole experiences.
\n\nThe time you enter the store, right, and then you're waiting there, who guiding you? The Genius Bar people guiding you. You sit down. You have the prescription and your glasses that get measured, scan the QR code, and find the match [inaudible 33:35] pair of goggles that fit your [inaudible 33:37] of your face. And they put it on. They sit on the side, use the iPad to guiding you, and tell personal experiences or stories.
\n\nThese companies are very design-driven, vision-driven company. They really think about the whole experiences of users, right? And, for me, it's too pricey, for me, the product, obviously, right now. But I have very delightful, positive experiences because of that 30-minute demo. So, I kind of plant the seeds in my heart. Oh, if the second generation or something have discount, I would definitely want to get one for myself. Not really because...it's a great design for sure, but also, the impression I have.
\n\nAnd I feel that really, really, like, make a difference, right? It's tiny. It's very subtle. They can, "No, we don't have, like, demo experiences." They can just purely sell the product. But I think they sell something bigger than just product. Branding user experiences, delightful experiences. And I can really feel that, and that's really powerful in the end.
\n\nJARED: Do you think that that sort of level of design is limited to the companies that can afford it like the big names? Like, obviously, there is a cost dedicated to having the time and to putting the resources to that. Is it always just going to be the big players, or are there things we can do to democratize that availability for the startups, for the SMEs?
\n\nSHENG-HUNG: I actually think it's about a company's culture. So, another example I would love to share is, like, when we did, like, an inspiration trip in Tokyo, and there's a very famous, like, chain bookstore called Tsutaya bookstore or Tsutaya electrics. So, to my surprise, like, yeah, it's a big bookstore, and we probably think bookstore selling books. No, they're actually selling a lifestyle.
\n\nSo, for example, like, if I want to buy the book around how to use a camera, right, the way they curate it, it's like, yeah, we do have the books around camera, but also, we'll put the real camera, like, near the book. So, they curate the whole experiences. You flip the book. Oh, this is so cool. Thanks, I want to try it. You probably, in the end, you got both. So, very interesting and also very human-centered, like, retail experiences.
\n\nWhy did I say culture? Because when I entered the store, I asked for one book I was looking for. The staff came to me, and she bring two books to me. One is the book I want, unpack. And one is the book...it's the same book, but without the plastic cover. It's brand new. And why she brought two books to me because if I want to buy this book, I not only read inside, but also, I can just get the new one with me to check out. And this is so subtle, right? Because they're not just bringing you, like, the sample. They also bring the final product with you.
\n\nSo, I feel that kind of culture is, like, very strong, customer-centered, think about your needs, think about your next step. So, they kind of plan ahead, and this is so strong message to me. Oh my God, this is such a great design culture, or at least a human-centered culture to think about my needs, my decision-making process. So, I feel connected with that, and I feel like, yes, they have money, but also, like, they really cultivate that culture within the...not just...they also send a message to their customers.
\n\nSAMI: I feel like, Sheng-Hung, we could speak to you for hours. I mean, you are opening my world and my eyes to a different world of design. I've got one final question for you before we wrap up that I wanted to cover. I've seen from your website, like, you've personally designed products. So, out of all the products you've either designed yourself or you've been involved with, what would you say, and could you describe for us your favorite product that you've designed yourself?
\n\nSHENG-HUNG: I think my favorite product is, like, I help and re-design, like, Shanghai Library Innovation Space that, for me, is OMG. Oh my God. It's crazy. Like, one single team, my side project and collaborate with the full staff, librarian, the leadership team. What is powerful is, like, library for them in Shanghai, it's a local hub to connect the community and also to teach, to learn for the younger generation how to use the space. For sure, most people use that space for, like, self-studying, you know, activity and all this stuff. But, for me, like, it's so impactful because every single change that means a lot of impact because it's a public space.
\n\nAnd also, it's really, really powerful. Like, you think about the decision-making process. You have to think about feasibility, viability, and also desirability, all things to connect together. And it's really hard, not easy process. It took me about a year-long project. And I'm really happy because, in the end, it's really from sketches, concept, prototyping models, all the way they rebuild, modify the design, integrated. And now the new library they build on another area of Shanghai is really based on this model and framework. I'm very happy, and I also feel like, yeah, design can make a positive impact. It's not like a concept. It's real. And it's nice. It's painful, but it's really satisfying, yeah [laughs].
\n\nSAMI: That's really cool when you get to a point where you've done something, and then you see people using what you've designed and, like, enjoying that space and benefiting from all that hard work that you've put into. I have to thank you so much for joining us and giving us time today on the Giant Robots On Tour Series of the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast. Our listeners don't know, but you've had about two hours of sleep.
\n\nSHENG-HUNG: [laughs] Yeah.
\n\nSAMI: So, it's probably time for you to get back into bed yourself. But that is your dedication to us. It's been an incredible episode and an incredible chat. I finally understand why Jared does not like doors. I myself, you will understand if you see me in the street and I'm tearing a bottle cap off of a bottle, you'll understand why. And we need to sort Sheng-Hung out with more adapters with just a single charger for all his devices. If people want to get a hold of you, Sheng-Hung, where's the best place they can reach out after listening to this podcast?
\n\nSHENG-HUNG: Yeah, definitely, you can reach out through my personal website portfolio. Yeah, shenghunglee.com. And I'm happy to respond and discuss about design-related topic. Thanks for having me on this podcast. It's very exciting, and hope we can create all the great stuff for our society.
\n\nSAMI: Pleasure. There's always a challenge I give to my listeners at the end, and it normally is just please hit that subscribe button. Jared has promised me that he will do a shoey if we can double our subscribers by the end of the series. If you don't know what a shoey is, my only advice to you is do not Google it because you do not want to know.
\n\nYou can find notes and a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have any questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks for listening. See ya.
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In this episode of the "Giant Robots On Tour" podcast, hosts Sami Birnbaum and Rémy Hannequin interview Dan Clark, the Founder and CEO of MindJam, an innovative platform providing emotional and SEN (Special Educational Needs) support for young people through gaming, game design, and digital skills. Sami shares a personal story about how his mother, an educational psychologist, introduced him to MindJam, highlighting its impact and relevance. Dan explains that MindJam was born out of the need to support young people who feel out of place in traditional educational settings, particularly those with ADHD, autism, and other neurodivergent conditions. By leveraging popular games like Minecraft, MindJam builds trust and engages young people in a medium they enjoy, transforming therapeutic support into a more effective and engaging process.
\n\nDan discusses the inception and growth of MindJam, which started during the pandemic when traditional in-person support became impossible. This shift to online sessions via gaming platforms provided a new avenue to connect with young people, enabling them to open up and build trust in a familiar and enjoyable environment. Dan emphasizes that gaming offers numerous benefits, such as enhancing cognitive abilities, fostering social connections, and providing a safe space for expression. Despite the negative stigma around gaming, he points out that it can be a powerful tool for personal development and emotional support. MindJam has grown significantly, now with 110 mentors supporting over 2,000 young people globally, showcasing the scalability and effectiveness of this approach.
\n\nThe conversation also touches on the broader implications and challenges of integrating gaming into therapeutic and educational contexts. Dan highlights the need for societal perception shifts to recognize the positive aspects of gaming, counteracting the negative media portrayal. He underscores the importance of educating parents, educators, and social services about the benefits of gaming and how it can be used constructively. Dan shares inspiring success stories from MindJam, illustrating how gaming can lead to real-world achievements and personal growth.
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nSAMI: Right, we are back again. And this is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, the Giant Robots on Tour series coming to you from Europe, West Asia, and Africa, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host Sami Birnbaum.
\n\nRÉMY: And I'm your other host, Rémy Hannequin.
\n\nSAMI: Let's get into it, Rémy. Joining us today is Dan Clark, the Founder and CEO of MindJam, a platform that provides online one-to-one sessions, providing emotional and SEN support for young people through gaming, game design, and digital skills.
\n\nDan, full disclosure on this one: so, about a month ago, right? I get an email from my mom. Now [laughs], this email says, "You've got to check this guy out. Go and take a look at MindJam." And I'm thinking, mom, I don't get these emails from you. This is not the normal sort of thing I'd get from my mom on your average weekday. And I know in the past, like, I've told her that I'm kind of doing this podcast thing, and I'm starting to regret, like, telling her this. Like, what is she throwing my way?
\n\nBut I get into some research...and maybe for some context, actually, which is helpful because my mom isn't just doing research for the podcast, my mom's an educational psychologist. So, she's been doing that ever since I can remember. I remember growing up as a kid, and that was, I mean, she assessed me numerous times. And she works, I guess, similar kind of to the children or people that you're working with, people with ADHD, autism, neurodivergent children, just often who are struggling in school and trying to find where they fit.
\n\nAnd I start doing my research. I look into it, hit the website, hit your LinkedIn. And I'll be, like, totally honest with you: We were both just blown away by what you are doing. And this is coming not only from me, and I work in the tech industry, and I've got a history of slight gaming addictions, which we might touch on, but also coming from my mom who works on the other side and works with all the local authorities. She does the kind of tribunals that they have to do to try and get people into the right schools and kids into the right schools.
\n\nAnd, literally, we were blown away, and I nearly got lost as well on your website. I found some kind of gaming streams that you do, and I feel almost like we missed a trick here, Rémy, because we could have done this podcast on Minecraft. It's such a nice flow, right, when you're streaming.
\n\nDAN: Yeah, it makes it easier when you've got that distraction there as well. You can just chat about it. Thank you so much for inviting me on. It's a pleasure being here and, yeah, I'm glad you kind of understand what we're doing here. MindJam itself is four years old now. But I was doing things before in the pandemic, similar. But once the pandemic hit, that was the key moment where everything went online for my support with young people. And, suddenly, the light bulb came on, and I was like, this is a way in.
\n\nYou know, there are so many young people that are struggling, lost, feel they're stupid, and don't fit in. Yet, actually, they're amazing. But, you know, a standard way of sitting in front of them going, "Tell me why you can't go to school. Why can't you do this?" you know, it doesn't work. They don't trust that person. They've got trauma. They've been, you know, battered down by education and by health services.
\n\nAnd so, to suddenly have someone who comes in and goes, "Oh, so you love Minecraft. Oh, I love Minecraft, too. Let's join in. Let's go in a world." And then, you can build that trust to then go, "How's your week been then?" Or, you know, and start talking, and you're just on the same wavelength. And, for me, it was something as soon as I sort of realized, it was like, this is...of course, this makes perfect sense. And then, I looked and saw nobody else is doing it [laughs].
\n\nSo, I started off MindJam just on my own. At first, very quickly, we got working with lots of...in the UK, we have local authorities, which is the councils around, so seeing there is a real, you know, thing that they would work with us. So, that was great, to be recognized as actually a real service, rather than just someone playing games with kids. It's like, no, this is real. This really works. And then, it quickly got bigger than me, and now we are at 110 mentors working for us, and we're supporting over 2,000 young people all over the world.
\n\nSAMI: That's incredible.
\n\nDAN: It's a mission of mine, you know, we'll go more into my sort of history, but I've got two neurodivergent children: both autistic, one's ADHD as well. When you see something that you think is going to work for your child, to then suddenly see it's got, like, a two-year waiting list, which most have, it's heartbreaking, and you know it's going to be too late.
\n\nSo, it's always been my mission with MindJam to keep that waiting list as small as I can, but also, obviously, expanding with quality mentors and all that. So, you know, we generally tend to always say about three months before we can sort of get that support for young people. But yeah, it's something very close to my heart that I'm so passionate about and, yeah, it's been a great journey so far.
\n\nSAMI: You can tell. It's so interesting because, like you say, when you find something that works for your kids. Because when I was younger, I struggled with separation anxiety a lot in school. So, I would have days when I would really struggle to go to school. During my high school period, I went to the Royal Free, which is down in Hampstead, so not too far from where I grew up and not too far from my school. And my parents...I tried to engage with a therapist. But it's almost like, I don't know if I wasn't cognitively or intellectually developed enough to engage in that way, but it didn't work. Ultimately, I did kind of one or two sessions. I remember filling in some questionnaire and thinking, like, I don't get this. This doesn't make sense.
\n\nAnd what you're talking about, if I understand correctly, is you're coming to where the child is at. You're coming to a safe space for them, a place where they feel comfortable. It's almost like a world which is predictable. Whereas the outside world is very scary, right? Especially for people who have generalized anxiety disorder, like I said, autism. It's very challenging. And so, you come to their level, and you say, "Right, let's find a place where we all feel comfortable." And then, we can start to engage. And you say, like, you know, the pandemic was a little bit of a light bulb moment.
\n\nWhat's been the biggest barrier then? So, you've found yourself kind of going into this and saying, right, this is something which works. It works for my kids. I want to make this available, accessible. What's been your biggest barrier to getting this off the ground and getting it working?
\n\nDAN: It's the negative thoughts and the way the media portrays and education portrays gaming, basically. That has been the hardest thing is most parents are on board, but they still feel a little bit ashamed of how social media is on gaming and screen time. And they're very worried that they're not doing the right thing. And we come in a way of also educating. We educate the educators. We do training plans for schools, and for social services, and all sorts because there are so many benefits to gaming that aren't recognized.
\n\nAnd, you know, gaming is still generally quite new. It's evolved so much in the last even 10 years. It's insane the way the characters have evolved. And the emotional nature of games now is really complex and, you know, young people and older people can get so much from them. But gaming still, in general, people are still like, "Well, get off that. Do something actually worthwhile." It's like, it's so worthwhile. There's so much, you know, strategy game you've got so much from it. And a fast-paced shooting you've got cognitive abilities. The perfect example I've got is, did you hear a couple of months ago a young lad, I think he was 13, he beat Tetris.
\n\nSAMI: Yes.
\n\nDAN: He completed Tetris, which is incredible, you know, it's like, oh, wow. And the first thing the newsreader said to them, the media person interviewing him went, "You should get out more." That's the way she portrayed it, rather than going, "What an achievement it is. You should get outside more." I'm literally like, what? What's going on? You know, again, this kid, you know, he's in the Guinness World of Records. What an achievement. He's famous around the world for doing it.
\n\nIt's like, why is that not seen as such a good thing? You know, so yeah, so that was the hard thing was especially schools, you know, they're very frightened of gaming and of change. And so, trying to help them see that, actually, if you meet a young person where they're at in something they love, then you can help inspire them and help find out why they can't deal with the things, why they can't engage with school, and also inspire them for future learning careers. Even healthy gaming comes from having that understanding of how they're gaming.
\n\nSo, if someone's sat up all night gaming, yeah, we all know it's not great for them. But if you just say, "Gaming's evil. Get off it. You're wasting your time. I'm turning that off," they're going to want to rebel against that. Yet if you come in and go, "Oh, wow, I can see why you were sat up all night doing that. But have you noticed that you're not as good at playing when you're really tired or really hungry?" And if you look at the top e-sports players, they're athletes. They exercise; they eat well; they sleep well. So, you know, if you embrace gaming a bit more, you can get that trust and that bond to then help inspire in other ways.
\n\nRÉMY: I mean, I could talk about it for a long time. It's really refreshing to hear someone talk about video games in such a positive way and talking about the benefits. And you even mentioned strong players like athletes. It's really refreshing. And I'm wondering, how did this knowledge come up to you in the first place?
\n\nSo, I bet you might be someone enjoying playing games yourself. But how did you see all these benefits yourself? Because, unfortunately, it's not something we talk a lot about. As you mentioned, in the press, we hear about all the negativity. Every time there is a strong event, we blame video games, all that. And we forgot all the stories where the video games enhance people, if they have trouble or not. It can be very beneficial to a lot of people. So, how did you see this value yourself?
\n\nDAN: Yeah, well, yeah, I've always been a gamer, you know, ever since Spectrum 48K, I think you had. I'm showing my age now, but it was mainly when the Sega Megadrive, and from then, PlayStation onwards were my days. And me and my brother used to have great times together on that as well. You know, it was our bonding. But then I think the biggest light bulb to me...before the pandemic, I was a teacher. And I used to teach music and ICT and computers as well, and having my children as well, and both in school connecting with the young people.
\n\nBecause I was a gamer, I could talk about the games that they're playing with them and to see their eyes light up...and you're on a different wavelength with that young person. They suddenly got this trust in you, and they want to tell you all about what they've done on Minecraft, or what the new season of Fortnite's about. And it was having such a beneficial effect on them and same with my family as well. We, you know, both my children are autistic, and we've got, you know, we have a lot of difficulties around that of bonding together as a family, yet our closest moments have been through gaming together.
\n\nSo, Mario 3D World was the first one I remember with my children playing, and we could play at all levels. So, my son was about four and, you know, he was often in a bubble, killed, and floating back onto the screen again. But, you know, we had a great time. And I was suddenly, like, looking, thinking, this is amazing. You know, nobody hears about this side of it that it's bringing us together. And so, from there, I then started doing after-school gaming clubs, so not coding clubs, nothing like that. It was gaming. And the young people they loved it. It was oversubscribed. Masses of kids came to it.
\n\nWe had all sorts of things from Super Smash Bros, if you know that, to, you know, to PlayStation games, Go Simulator, and everything playing. And we just had a whale of a time, and they could really relax and make friends. And, again, it was all coming from the joy of gaming together, basically. And it's, you know, as much as some people might not like it, it's bigger and bigger. It's the biggest entertainment industry now.
\n\nAnd, you know, on the other side of it, there are so many careers in it. If your young person has an interest in gaming, see what they're interested, help it, champion it because it's, yeah, you know, there's such a future there. But yeah, that's my story, basically, and where that sort of light bulb came from.
\n\nAnd then, I've done a lot of research into the benefits of gaming and how you can use that for connecting with young people. And, you know, so many games now have characters with, you know, emotional things going off, or, you know, you can talk about feelings even in games like Minecraft where the characters don't talk. But you can be like, how must that person be feeling there? And, you know, you can really bring in real-life situations while gaming and also have a lot of fun, which I think is super important as well, which sometimes gets forgotten about. But, you know, real life is really enhanced by having loads of fun, and gaming's fun.
\n\nSAMI: Yeah. It's so fascinating. As you're speaking, I'm having this internal dilemma, right? Because, in my head, everything you're saying is true and makes sense. And I believe it, and I've seen it. And then, I probably still harbor those feelings that are almost entrenched, like you're saying, in the media with, you know, the person who completed Tetris. And those sorts of feelings are still, like, a little bit entrenched to me in terms of the negative sides of gaming.
\n\nLike, I guess I grew up probably similar to you, where it was like, "Well, why aren't you outside more?" and the negative aspect of it. I spoke about this in a different podcast, which I've apologized to my parents for mentioning in public. But when I was in university, it's too late now, I also kind of developed, I would call it probably, like, a small gaming addiction. I don't know where it would sit, but I was doing all-nighters Playing Call of Duty, Modern Warfare. And so, there definitely is a negative side. But I like what you say about, well, actually, you can address that in a healthy way.
\n\nBut then, this week, just this week, which is quite uncanny, my seven-year-old comes, and he says, "Daddy, I really want to get an Xbox, you know, my friend's got one." And he's just starting to get to that cusp of gaming. So, in my head, I say, yeah, like that makes total sense, and I imagine the benefits and the fun time me and him could have on an Xbox. But I still struggle with those feelings of...maybe they're my own worries of, well, but what if he neglects his other stuff? What if he goes into like, yeah, with ADHD, he goes into hyperfocus, and that's all he does? How [laughs] can you counsel me out of this concern?
\n\nDAN: Well, no, I completely understand, and that is where all our fears come from, especially our generation and how it's put through. But I think young people more and more connect through gaming, whereas I think when we were gamers as young, a lot of stuff wasn't online. So, we weren't playing with our friends. We were playing on our own a lot of the time, whereas it's very social now. Platforms like Roblox and Minecraft are the things that are super social, working together as a team, things like that.
\n\nBut also screen time, I can show you that we've got a whole list of benefits of gaming, actually, that I'll share with you because there's studies that even screen time has been proven not to be detrimental the way we're told it is. And I think we must know that through how we work. Most of us work on screens these days, so.
\n\nSAMI: Yeah, that's such a point of contention in the house because we currently do only on Fridays. So, they get, like, two hours of screen time. I don't know if that's strict. I don't know where I am on that. Do you have, like, with your own kids, or how do you handle that discipline? So, let's say I get the console, right? I bring it into the house to my seven-year-old. Do I limit it with screen time? How would you approach that sort of thing?
\n\nDAN: Obviously, with a seven-year-old, it's a little bit different from...mine are now 17 and 14. So, we discuss it more, but yeah, definitely, you know, have boundaries. And also, if you're worried about how they're gaming, maybe have the Xbox in the living room, so instead of gaming in their bedroom, they're gaming when you're around, and it's a shared family activity. And then, it's easier to say, "Well, we're going to be having food in a minute. So, finish up on that game." And you can have all that understanding.
\n\nBut I think also, you know, that other side of things of coming from seeing what they're playing. I talk to parents a lot about this, and they get, you know, they see frustrations in their young people when they're trying to get them off. But they don't realize that maybe they're playing something like Fortnite or something that's a bit more online team-based, where if they pulled them off the game in the middle of the match, it could be detrimental to the team they're working with, their rankings. You know, they could even get banned from the game for a few days, you know.
\n\nSo, understanding and them being able to work time management together, being like, "Well, after this game is finished, this is where we're going, you know, we've got to go out. We've got to do this," you know, there is a give and take there. And I'm not saying there isn't negatives to gaming. We need, you know, everybody needs a break as well. But, again, through the understanding of what they're playing, you can have those conversations. If you're not playing them or watching them and don't understand what the game is about, and what the joy is about, there's going to be a gap between you, you know, where the young person is going to be like, "You don't understand me. You don't understand why I want to play this."
\n\nMy kids, you know, we went from the other [inaudible 17:37] because they've had severe problems at school, both of them, through their neurodivergency, and gaming has really helped them both to regulate. And maybe when you're saying about yourself when you had problems, and maybe there was something else going on. And then, the gaming was a way for you to cope, that safe space to go to that was actually working in a way as a little bit of therapy and keeping you grounded, you know, as well. So, you know, there's two sides to see it.
\n\nBut yeah, definitely, I can understand the worries of staying up all night playing it or not doing your homework and playing it, although I have different things to say about homework. But to say it's not actually beneficial is wrong because, you know, you just got to look at something like Minecraft and the amount a young person can learn, everything from biomes, and blocks, and diamonds, or ores to actual mathematics and things. And it naturally leads onto PCs and learning how to code things and who knows where that's going to lead, to creating something completely new.
\n\nSo, I worry for the ones that are heavily restricted on screen time. I worry that they're being held a little bit back. You know, that might sound a bit controversial for some people. But when most jobs are digital and you're not allowed to learn, I mean, the young people I see they're so gifted at such a young age in understanding digital things that they're going to be at the forefront of the new technology. So, it's almost like, yeah, I think it should be embraced with both hands.
\n\nRÉMY: There's an incredible opportunity to learn new things through video games and to be happy and to share, like you said. And I bet our audience is already quite open to video games, but we never know it. I think it could be interesting if you could provide, like, a very simple, not comprehensive list of famous games and the kind of skills and benefits they provide you. You mentioned Minecraft; you mentioned creativity. But what kind of games and skills benefits you? You could say for our audience to understand more about the opportunity that is out there.
\n\nDAN: Yeah, I mean, there are so many. But yeah, so, if we look at your normal shooter game like Call of Duty, and Fortnite, and things like that, that is for cognitive ability. You know, getting those dexterity in your hands and learning those [inaudible 20:11] of pressing buttons is more than you think. It's really training that brain and getting that brain working really quick. It's proven to boost your brain power, your gray matter. It's actually proven that gaming, in general, just boosts your gray matter.
\n\nI mean, we all know about doing brain training games, but all games using that brain, you know, it's much more advanced than sitting watching TV. But then if you go into more things like puzzle games, so things from your Tetris all the way through to more advanced ones like Portal or strategy games like Civilization and things, there is so much you're doing. You're boosting that brainpower, and you're thinking all the time.
\n\nBut then you can get into...yeah, back onto the shooter games as well, they help with spatial recognition. So, it's actually helping to spot things from a distance: dangers or things to collect. You can see them, and it actually enhances eyesight. It is proven to enhance eyesight, which is great. Decision-making and leadership skills, which is a key thing people talk about for business, is all there when you're in your team of shooters. You're playing Overwatch or you're playing, you know, any game like that. You know, there's always somebody leading or, you know, saying what should be best, seeing the best strategies in there.
\n\nProblem-solving comes into all sorts so, obviously, in shooters and things again, I'd- say, but also your Minecraft. You know, you've got to create a certain thing to defeat the dragon or whatever you're doing. There's always something, or if you're building something. But then, of course, your high-end puzzle games and even things like Mario. I mean, they get so complex in the problem-solving to overcome a level. Again, the brain power, and the brain power seeing these young people that they're way more advanced than we were playing games. The games are so intricate and so hard now.
\n\nOne you never hear about is social skills until...I think the pandemic helped that a bit. People started to see, oh, Animal Crossing, it's a great way to connect with people. And, you know, and Roblox as much as it gets a lot of bad press, for young people to connect and play, and lot of it is almost like playground role playing play, and they're playing together. You know, there's games just based in Ikea, and they're shopping, and [laughs] things like that. It's really good for them to be doing that.
\n\nAnd health and fitness surprisingly, of course, is in gaming. So, obviously, a lot of Nintendo Switch games are sort of standing up, you know, playing switch sports and things, but then virtual reality is huge for that. And if you've ever tried Beat Saber, that's a real workout, which is really good. But there's loads of boxing ones. There's one that kids play now called Gorilla Tag, where, oh my God, that is such a workout. I have mentees that I work with, and then we'll be like, "Oh, Gorilla Tag," an hour of that, I am exhausted. Because you're just flinging your arms around like a gorilla trying to move fast. It's amazing.
\n\nSAMI: I saw a post you did recently about there's, like, a Greek mythology level on Fortnite, like, an educational aspect [laughs]. It's so funny because I remember playing God of War on the PS2, and I learned so much about Greek mythology. Everything I know comes from God of War. And so, there's also that educational aspect.
\n\nDAN: Yeah, exactly. You get this deep dive into something, and you really find what you're interested in. So, I've got a kid, and he loves this game called War Thunder, which is all about planes, World War planes, and he can tell me everything about every plane and what country it's made. He can spot it a mile off. You know, "Oh, that's a Russian plane from so and so. Its weak points are here. It was built by so and so." And it's like, you're a genius, and it's all come from, you know, this game's sparked this real interest.
\n\nAnd, you know, like I said, Fortnite brings it in, God of War, of course. Assassin's Creed is amazing for things like that, history, it goes from Egypt times. And they even now have walkthroughs in the game where...this needs to be used in schools. I don't know if schools embrace it yet, but you don't have any of this story and the killings and stuff. You just are going through history and walking through the towns and things like that, which is brilliant. The latest one for Assassin's Creed was Vikings, wasn't it? And that was brilliant because that brought in the UK and how it was when the Vikings came over. There's so much stuff.
\n\nI've got a young person, and he loves this game called For Honor, which is all about medieval sword fights. And he got such an interest in weapons that he's then become a blacksmith. He's enrolled onto a college course apprenticeship being a blacksmith. He wants to be making armory and swords for movies. You know, he said like, "Look, Lord of the Rings, that's all made properly, isn't it?" I mean, that's [inaudible 24:50]
\n\nSAMI: Wow.
\n\nDAN: Yeah, it's amazing. One other thing that the games bring, which I think is amazing, is mindfulness as well. There's a huge thing of that. Yeah, like I said, going back to maybe yourself when you were gaming at night, and you maybe needed to destress and maybe take your mind off something, you can get into a game and almost...there's a thing called the grind in the game. Minecraft has it a lot, where you've just got to get yourself a hundred diamonds, or whatever [laughs].
\n\nSo, it's like, you can almost turn your brain off and just do that, you know, and it can be so super relaxing. And you can get into this thing called flow state. A lot of driving games are like that. If you hit every corner perfectly, you're kind of just in this dream-like state where you just...everything's going well. And that brings a euphoria, too. There's so many good things.
\n\nBut now there's loads of games that are actually based around mindfulness. Tetris is one that's been proven for that. But I don't know if you've heard a more recent one called PowerWash Simulator. Now, this game was one of my most favorite for the last couple of years. All you're doing is washing stuff with a power washer. But the way it works, it gives you a little ding when you've cleaned something properly, like a [vocalization]. And it just...you stand back and look at your job. Honestly, it's amazing. But now Oxford University are doing a full study on it because they realize how beneficial it is to relaxing and chilling out, you know, and just making yourself just feeling happy when you need to just de-stress. It's amazing.
\n\nRÉMY: I can totally relate. I remember a few years ago, I played GTA 5, and GTA 5 is the kind of game famous for arbitrary violence or all this kind of stuff we hear in the media. But I remember me playing and sometimes I wanted to play just to take a bike and to go on the road and to see a sunset. And, of course, we could argue that I can see the sunset out there, but, in a game, it's just a piece of art.
\n\nAt work, recently, we just had a conversation about beautiful games. So, we weren't interested in all the features or how the game would work but just how beautiful it is. And sometimes we just play video games because they're beautiful. And so, they could provide so much on the intellectual level, on the skills, but also, just as piece of art, just beautiful things made by beautiful artists.
\n\nDAN: Yeah, it is amazing when you see that. And yeah, I get that completely with GTA. It gets a lot of bad reputation, you know, and story-wise, it is very adult. But, you know, it's the biggest game in the world for a reason. And, you know, like you said, you climb the mountain, you look at the view, you know, it is such a lovely thing to do.
\n\nThere was a game, Red Dead Redemption. I had a young lady I was mentoring, and she was situationally mute, which means, you know, she couldn't talk to anybody. She used to type her responses to me. But she loved Red Dead Redemption, loved horses. And she actually created a group from all around the world, where they would all meet her on a Friday in the game, and she would take them on horse trails.
\n\nAnd so, this is all in the game, and she would just take them around to beautiful spots, do nice little jumps with the horses, setting up camp, you know, and, I mean, that's [inaudible 28:08]. It's amazing. And yeah, she ended up making a horse game on Roblox, and that doing really well, and her actually working for Roblox themselves. So, yeah, you know, it all inspires them to work on that.
\n\nAnd, I think, sorry, I'm going on tangents here, but also, as you say, appreciating art. There are so many different sides to gaming. A lot of people used to think gaming is just coding, and I don't want to be a coder. That's confusing. I don't want to do that. If you look at the credits that roll on a main game, and they go on for, like, about an hour. There are so many different jobs from artists, storyboard writers, level designers, musicians. There's everything there. The coders are just one part of it.
\n\nSo, as I said before, there are so many career opportunities there, either starting up your own business as a self-employed person or getting involved in it. One I love...a lot of the neurodivergent people I work with [inaudible 29:07] is being a games tester. Because the first thing my son ever does is, if he gets a game, he tries to break it. He tries to find where he can walk through a wall, or something like that. So, it's like that job would be ideal for you. It's like, it's amazing. And that's a job. That's a really important job as well.
\n\nSAMI: Yeah. When you talk about these stories, they are inspirational. Like, I feel like almost, like, a flutter in my heart as you talk about this kid who maybe felt he has kind of no hope or very little opportunities to actually honing in on this Viking game and then being able to go and become a blacksmith, or this other person you mentioned who's now with Roblox. Yeah, I almost wish, like, they had more publicity around them. And maybe we're kind of doing some of that work now. What would you say is your biggest success story?
\n\nDAN: I guess MindJam in itself I think is just, I mean, it's way bigger than me now. Obviously, it was born from this idea of giving young people the time and the respect. They are doing something that they love to do and is beneficial. That's what I found was everybody...even when I was teaching, we used to have this connection with the kids, and I used to work one-to-one with the, you know, special education needs, young ones. And a great connection talking about gaming, and their eyes would light up. They would talk about their week, and how they were feeling, and what they achieved.
\n\nBut then it would always be, in the back of my mind, we need to get back onto what we're supposed to be doing and, you know, I need to tick these boxes. And there's always something wanted from them. And it's the same if they go and see a health service. There's always something that they want from that young person. Yet if you just approach them and say, "You know, let's do what you want to do." It's child-led. It's low demand, and let's see where that takes us. That's where we got to discovering about the blacksmith thing. And that's why we've got young people making albums and things with MindJam. You know, it goes anywhere. I've got one young person who shows me Tai Chi, you know, that's our MindJam session. It started off from Rocket League. So, it can really go anywhere.
\n\nBut yeah, sorry, going back to the big success, it is every day now I get a message saying how one of my mentors has helped a young person to help the whole family. That is just the best thing in the world. You know, this is something we've created, and we work hard. We work really hard to make sure we've got the best people.
\n\nYou know, and we're well-trained, and informed, and everything. To hear that it's really making such a difference, and, you know, some people say we're saving lives, and, you know, I just have to pinch myself. Me and my wife we were just like, we can't believe it really how amazing it is. But we're just on a mission now to make sure it's accessible for as many people who need it.
\n\nSAMI: Yeah, I've seen some of the reviews on your website, and they're heartwarming. But, like, it kind of makes sense, right? Like, for some people, this is the only place that they feel safe. They feel comfortable. You imagine all the cortisol that's going through someone when they're in that fight or flight moment, and there's lots of stress and anxiety. And they enter into a gaming world, and they can escape. And all of a sudden, that reduces. You're dealing with a different person. You're dealing with someone who feels happy, who feels content.
\n\nAnd then, you're opening up their mind to have other conversations, you know, like you say. I really recommend it to our listeners. Go and check out the stream. You do kind of...I've seen you've done a few episodes of streaming with other mentors. And it's fascinating to see how all of you, whilst you're playing, are in a conversation about, "Oh, how was your week? And how's that been going?" And, you know, something happened over there. And it's like, you're just in a more of a relaxed state to have those conversations.
\n\nDAN: Yeah, you know, it's been used before, you know, LEGO therapy is kind of like that. You know, that's what MindJam is in a way is play therapy, but there's so much more you can do with the digital platform. And we're at an amazing age as well, where most bits of software are free. I'll click on like, you know, if they want to look into 3D modeling, it's easy to get a copy of Blender. If you want to get into Unity or Unreal Engine, I mean, there's always into...and it's all, you know, what a wonderful time. When we were younger, if I wanted to get into game design, it was so complicated. You didn't know where to start where, you know, so yeah, it's really amazing.
\n\nAnd another thing that I love as well is the mentors that work for us. Most of them are really [inaudible 33:28]. I struggled when I was in my early twenties, and I remember seeing a counselor. And it felt like they had no idea what they were...yeah, they're reading from a textbook, you know, and I remember just really patronizing me. And I was just like, you've got no clue. Whereas I think all the mentors we have all said, "I wish MindJam was around when I was a young person."
\n\nAnd I thought, that's the key thing for me, their empathy, their understanding. We don't have to solve it straight away. It's just being there and going, "Yeah, that is hard. Yeah, you know, you'll be okay though. And there's, you know, you're not on your own here." And, you know, I think that is...so many people seem to have to try and heal people straight away. And it's like, no, people just need time to talk, and it's the same as adults as well. Yeah, it could just carry on really to all ages really, couldn't it?
\n\nSAMI: Yeah. And you've also got that buy-in, right? Whereas, you know, I think of myself perhaps going to therapy at that young age. I didn't really buy into it because I was sitting there with an adult who I didn't really know what we were doing. And I was just kind of there for a conversation. And here you've got...you're doing something that they like, and they enjoy.
\n\nTo put my parent and adult hat back on [laughs] because it's something I want to pick your brains on, right? So, working in the tech industry and working in coding, I've read articles about games, which kind of it says that they're more and more...you see it maybe more on the games on the mobile phone. So, they're employing, like, these kind of gambling tactics, so a lot of the stuff where it's treasure chests. And what is it? On Fortnite, it's the packs. On FIFA, it's also, like, you open up the pack and you see what players you get.
\n\nSo, that sort of stuff I also find scary where I feel like you have from the industry...so, whilst you're using the industry in this way, is the industry itself there to promote and perpetuate the benefits that come from games? Or are they looking, I want to get people in; I want to get them hooked; I want to use these gambling techniques, A/B testing, whatever it is?
\n\nDAN: From all big companies, we get both sides, obviously. So, you got your unscrupulous ones that, oh, go for it. You loot boxes. But I think more and more, especially with young people, they're more and more aware. They're far more savvy than we are in these things. And the good one is EA with, you know, FIFA. They get review bombed because as soon as someone's putting in loot boxes and things, people are just like, you're just after our money. This is a con. It's pay to win. Mobile games are the worst for it, of course. You know, they're quick cash-making things.
\n\nAgain, instead of, like, saying, "All gaming is evil. We should never do it," it's being aware and being aware of what these games are trying to do, which, again, when you're looking at a young child, is having shared gaming experiences. So, you can go, "Ah, can you see what they're doing here? You know, they've hooked us in. We've played this for two minutes, and we've had free play. And now they're asking us to pay five pounds for extra things. That's a bit of a con, isn't it?" And, you know, you can actually bring that awareness, and then they're not going to fall for things like that.
\n\nBut at the other side of it, I see firsthand...I've luckily enough to work closely with Sony. One of their great companies is called Media Molecule. I don't know if you've heard of them. They did LittleBigPlanet, and lately, they had a game called Dreams, which is actually making games on a PlayStation, which is really cool. But they're so accessible. It's all about, you know, making everybody happy, giving people the keys to creativity, and really help making everything accessible.
\n\nAgain, they worked with this wonderful, wonderful artist who created characters, character designs. They'd never met her. She was so socially anxious. She never could leave her house but was actually one of their top artists that they would send the work, send the brief. She'd send this amazing art back, and then they'd pay her. They didn't have to come into the office nine till five for no reason whatsoever. And there's a lovely side, and, of course, there's a business unscrupulous side.
\n\nAnd yeah, again, bring that education of that. This is what I think should be in schools. Instead of avoiding the whole issue, is actually talk about being toxic gamers and what that means, and how to deal with toxic gamers, and how not to be a toxic gamer yourself. For those that don't know toxic gamers, it's just people that are really, really mean to everybody, which seems to be a set thing that people do, especially to a new player. It's like, learn how to encourage people in. And there's now games coming out where they ban people straight away if they're being toxic, and it's all about helping that new player feel like part of the team.
\n\nBut again, yeah, let's say if this was actually brought into education, so then we learn about loot boxes and, you know, pay-to-win type games, then young people would be on that same wavelength. They would get it, either that or it would make gaming so lame that no one would play gaming anymore because it's in schools [laughs]. Like, oh, it sucks now [laughs].
\n\nSAMI: Yeah, I think that that way that you embrace kind of what gaming is and you say, well, actually, we can see that it's got a benefit. We can see that it's positive. How do we get the absolute most out of this? How can we not hide, stick our heads in the sand to the issues that might be there? And how can we then say, "Let's use this?"
\n\nAnd I think, I mean, my mom will be listening to this podcast for sure. But I think it's something which it's quite disruptive what you're doing. I really do feel that way kind of dabbling in gaming, working as a consultant in the coding industry. I actually teach neurodivergent kids as well on the side. And I'm actually mentoring another kid in coding as well. And what you're doing, as I said at the beginning, it's mind-blowing, and we could talk to you for hours.
\n\nWe have a little chat on this podcast, which listeners can't see. And I asked Rémy, like, "Do you have any questions before you want to wrap up?" And Rémy was just like, "I just want to keep listening. I'm loving it." And I'm exactly...I feel like we can listen to...I think me and Rémy game and we dabble here and there as well ourselves. So, it's definitely something which speaks to us so much. But I've got to thank you so much for your time, for taking the time to jump on with us, give us such an insight into the work that you're doing with MindJam.
\n\nLet's talk about the BAFTA Young Game Designers Award Ceremony Open Day. Give us some info.
\n\nDAN: Oh yeah. Well, this is a lovely thing. I've luckily enough to be involved with BAFTA on this for a few years. An early success of MindJam was I was nominated as Mentor of The Year and finalist for Mentor of The Year for BAFTA in 2021. And they run this thing called Young Games Designers every year, and it's brilliant because they do...it's two sides to it. One is actually making a game, but then, of course, not all young people are ready to make a game. And, you know, so the other side is a games concept where you could just send in sketches, ideas, things like that. And that's really accessible for lots of young people we work with, of course.
\n\nBut yeah, in July, I don't have the date; it's early July, we have the award ceremony, which is on this Saturday. But then on the Sunday at BAFTA in London, it's an open day for families to come. You have to apply and get a ticket. I'm sure you guys can put the link on here later on. But yeah, MindJam will be there, but there's loads of game places. I think TT Games will be there who make the LEGO games. And there's all sorts of...we have D&D there. We have all sorts and talks on how to get into the industry and things like that. So, it's really a great thing to come to if you're a young person who's interested in gaming.
\n\nSAMI: That's really cool. So, parents, if you're listening, save up all that screen time so you can use it. A month's worth of screen time [chuckles] at the BAFTA Awards, Young Game Designers Awards Ceremony in the Open Day in London.
\n\nIf people want to get hold of you, Dan, where's the best place? They've heard this. They're inspired. They feel like they've got someone who would benefit from your services. Where's the best place to get in touch?
\n\nDAN: If you go to our website, it's mindjam.org.uk, and you can email us at hello@mindjam.org.uk. And I think you said this podcast is international, isn't it? So, we do offer sessions all around the world. We have mentors in America, in Australia, in Japan, all over the place basically. MindJam is universal. So, wherever you are, get in touch. And if you're interested in being a mentor as well, get in touch as well, so...
\n\nSAMI: Definitely, I highly recommend. And I've already got people I can think of that I'm going to be passing your details on to.
\n\nListeners, listeners, listeners, our lovely listeners, no one likes missing out on things. Remember that flight you missed? The train that passed you by? Your partner's birthday? I've been there, by the way; I missed one recently. It's a horrible feeling. I cannot deal with you missing out on these things, but I can make sure that this feeling doesn't come about when it comes to our podcast. So, move your thumb. Yes, you, move your thumb. Hit that subscribe button. I can guarantee you, you will never miss one of our podcasts. And you'll hear amazing guests, just like Dan, as we get them in, and we have great chats together on the Giant Robots on Tour podcast.
\n\nYou can find notes and a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Check her out at mandymoore.tech.
\n\nThanks for listening. See you next time. Bye.
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","summary":"In this episode of \"Giant Robots On Tour,\" Sami Birnbaum and Rémy Hannequin interview Dan Clark, Founder and CEO of MindJam, which provides emotional and Special Educational Needs support for young people through gaming. Dan shares how MindJam began during the pandemic to help neurodivergent youth using games like Minecraft, emphasizing gaming's benefits for cognitive and social development. MindJam has grown significantly, now supporting over 2,000 young people globally with 110 mentors.","date_published":"2024-08-15T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/6023d59e-0065-495c-9447-5e0233b3499d.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":47962401,"duration_in_seconds":2606}]},{"id":"09845ff9-70e0-410d-89d2-082b9495e678","title":"537: Navigating the Startup Ecosystem with Marc Gauthier","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/537","content_text":"In the latest episode of the \"Giant Robots On Tour\" podcast, hosts Rémy Hannequin and Sami Birnbaum welcome Marc G. Gauthier, a solopreneur and startup coach, who shares his journey from software development to becoming the founder and developer of The Shadow Boxing App. Marc describes how his interest in software engineering began at a young age with QBasic and evolved through various leadership roles at companies like Drivy (now Getaround) and Back Market. His early passion for gaming led him to learn coding, and over time, he naturally transitioned into management roles, finding excitement in organizing and leading teams while maintaining his love for building products.\n\nDuring the episode, Marc discusses the challenges and intricacies of scaling startups, emphasizing the importance of balancing speed and reliability in software development. He recounts his experiences in leadership positions, where he faced the dual task of managing rapid team growth and maintaining software efficiency. Marc also shares insights into the startup ecosystem, noting that most startups struggle to achieve success due to a combination of market timing, team dynamics, and resource management. His own venture, The Shadow Boxing App, represents his attempt to return to hands-on coding while leveraging his extensive experience in startup coaching and advising.\n\nMarc also touches on the role of AI in the future of software development, expressing cautious optimism about its potential to augment human workflows and automate repetitive tasks. He advises current and aspiring developers to embrace AI as a tool to enhance their capabilities rather than a replacement for human ingenuity. Marc concludes by highlighting the importance of realistic expectations in the startup world and the need for continuous learning and adaptation in the ever-evolving tech landscape.\n\n\nGetaround\nFollow Getaround on LinkedIn, Facebook, X, YouTube, or Instagram.\nBack Market\nFollow Back Market on LinkedIn, Facebook, X, or Instagram.\nThe Shadow Boxing App\nFollow Marc Gauthier on LinkedIn.\nFollow thoughtbot on X or LinkedIn.\n\n\nTranscript:\n\nRÉMY: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, the Giant Robots on Tour series coming to you from Europe, West Asia, and Africa, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Rémy Hannequin. \n\nSAMI: And I'm your other host, Sami Birnbaum. \n\nRÉMY: If you are wondering who we are, make sure you find the previous podcast where we introduced the Giant Robots on Tour series by throwing random icebreakers at each other. And find out that Jared likes it when someone takes the time to understand someone else's point of view. \n\nJoining us today is Marc G Gauthier, a Solopreneur and Startup Coach. \n\nMarc, you used to be VP of Engineering at Drivy, now known as Getaround, and also Director of Engineering at Back Market. You also have been a coach and advisor to a startup for over a decade. Currently, your current adventure is being the Founder and Developer of The Shadow Boxing App available on the Apple App Store. We always like to go back to the start with our guests. Everyone has a story, and we are interested in your journey. So, Marc, what led you into the world of software engineering in the first place? \n\nMARC: Hello. Well, happy to be here. And, yeah, I started getting into software development quite a long time ago. I actually learned software development with QBasic when I was something like seven. And, from there, I just kept on learning, learning, and learning and got into school for it, then worked in different startups, and then moved into more leadership position management. And I'm now, like, coaching people and building my own product. \n\nWhat do you want to get? Because it's broad. I've been doing it for quite a while. Like, I don't think the QBasic days are that insightful. The only thing I remember from that time is being confused by the print comment that I would expect it to print on my printer or something, but it didn't; it just printed on the screen. That's the only thing I have from back then. \n\nSAMI: Why at seven years old? And I'm taking you back too far, but at seven years old, I was probably collecting Pokémon cards and possibly like, you know, those football stickers. I don't know if you had the Panini stickers. \n\nMARC: Oh yeah, I was doing that as well. \n\nSAMI: But you were doing that as well. But then what drove you at that age? What do you think it was that made you think, I want to start learning to code, or play around with the computer, or get into tech? \n\nMARC: [laughs] Yeah. Well, I remember, back then, I really wanted a computer to play games. Like, I had a friend who had a computer. He was playing games, and I wanted to do that. So, I was asking my mom to have a computer, and she told me, \"Yeah, you can have one.\" And she found a really old computer she bought from a neighbor, I think. But she told me like, \"I don't know anything about it. So, you have to figure it out and set it up.\" And she just found someone to kind of help me. And this person told me to, like, take the computer apart. She taught me a bit of software development, and I kind of liked it.\n\nAnd I was always trying to change the games. Back then, it was way easier. You could just edit a sound file, and you would just edit the sound file in the game, so yeah, just learning like this. It wasn't really my intent to learn programming. It just kind of happened because I wanted to play video games really. \n\nSAMI: That's really cool. It's really interesting. Rémy, do you remember how...how did you first get...do you remember your first computer, Rémy? \n\nRÉMY: My first computer, I think I remember, but the first one I used it was, first, a very long time ago. I discovered that it was an Apple computer way, way later when I discovered what Apple was and what computers were actually. And I just remember playing SimCity 2000 on it, and it was amazing. And we had to, you know, cancel people from making phone calls while we were on the computer because of the internet and all the way we had to connect to the internet back then. \n\nAnd after that, just, I think, Windows 95 at home. Yeah, that's the only thing I can remember actually. Because I think I was lucky, so I got one quite early. And I don't really remember not having one, so I was quite lucky with that. And so, I was always kind of in the computer game without being too much [inaudible 05:02] [laughs]. \n\nSAMI: Yeah, I think that's similar to me as well. Like, it's interesting because my initial introduction to computers would have been watching my older brothers kind of play computer games and actually being told to get out the room, or like, you know, \"We're busy now. Don't bother us.\" And then, what actually happened is when they left the room, I managed to play what they were playing, which was the first ever GTA. I don't know if anyone ever played this, but it is so cool if you look back on it. You could probably find emulators online, but it was, like, a bird's eye view, like, way of operating. \n\nAnd it was probably also that drive where you get frustrated on a computer because you want to do something, so, like you were saying, Marc, where you went to edit the sound files because you want to change something. You want to do something. I definitely think that is something which I felt as well is that frustration of I want to change this thing. And then, that kind of gets into well, how does it work? And if I know how it works, then I can probably change it. \n\nMARC: Yeah. And once you figure out how things work, it's also really exciting. Like, once you figure out the initialization file on Windows, like, you can edit, like, what level is unlocked right away. It's kind of cheat codes but not really. And there are some really fun ones. Like, I would edit sound files for racing games. And, usually, it's just a base sound file, and then they would pitch shift the sound to make it sound like an engine. So, if you record your voice, it's just really funny. \n\nRÉMY: So, Marc, you mentioned moving to management positions quite early. Do you remember what made you do this move? Was it for, like, a natural path in your career, or was it something you really wanted from the first part of your career as a developer? What happened at this moment? \n\nMARC: Yeah, that was not completely planned. Like, I don't think I really plan my career precisely. It's just something that happens. So, I joined Drivy after, like, I was already a software engineer for, like, five years at that point. I joined as a lead backend engineer. I did that for three years. And after three years, the company went from...I think there was, like, three software engineers to a dozen. There was a need for more structure, and the CTO, at the time so, Nicolas, wanted to focus more on products. And it was hard to do both, like do the product side, the design, the data, and do the engineering, the software, and so on. \n\nSo, he wanted to get a bit away from software engineering and more into product. So, there was a gap in the organization. I was there. I was interested to try, and I was already doing some more things on the human side, so talking to people, organizing, internal communication. I kind of liked it. So, I was excited to try, give it a try. It was really interesting. \n\nI found that it was a different way to have an impact on the team. I just kept doing it. And my plan was to keep doing it until I'm bored with it. And I'm still not bored with it, even though you kind of miss just actually building the software yourselves, actually coding. So, that's also why I'm trying something different right now with my mobile app adventure.\n\nSAMI: Right. So, on the side, you've got this Shadow Boxing App, which, in my dedicated research, I downloaded and had a go with it. \n\nMARC: Did you actually try it, or did you just click around? \n\nSAMI: I did a proper workout, mate. I did. I put myself as, like, the absolute beginner. I did it on my MacBook Pro. I know it's built for iPad or iPhone, but it still worked amazingly well. And it kind of reminded me why I stopped doing boxing because it's hard work.\n\nMARC: [laughs] Yeah, it is.\n\nSAMI: It's not a gimmick this thing, right? So, it's like, the best way to describe it is it's essentially replacing if I was to go to the gym and have a trainer who's telling me kind of the moves to make or how to do it, then this kind of replaces that trainer. So, it's something you can do at home. It was really cool. I was surprised, actually. I thought, at the beginning, it's not going to be that interactive, or it won't actually be as hard or difficult as a workout, and it really was. So, it's, yeah, it was really cool, really interesting to try it.\n\nAnd going into that, you say you wanted to get back more into coding, and that's why you are doing this kind of, like, app on the side, or it allowed you to kind of do a bit more coding away from the people management. You've been involved in a lot of startups, and I actually often get...as consultants, when we work at thoughtbot, we get a lot of people who come with different startup ideas. When you look back at all the startups you've been involved with, do you think more startups are successful than those that fail? Or have you seen a lot of startups...actually, people come with these great ideas; they want to build this amazing product, but it's actually really hard to be a successful product? \n\nMARC: I think it's [inaudible 10:22] how to have the right idea, be at the right spot at the right time, build the right team, get enough momentum. I think most startups fail, and even startups that are successful often can be the result of a pivot. Like, I know companies that pivoted a bunch of times before finding any success. So, it's really hard actually...if I take my past four companies, only two are still alive. Like, the first two went under. Actually, there's even more companies that went under after I left. Yeah, it's just really hard to get anything off the ground. So, yeah, it's complicated, and I have a lot of respect for all the founders that go through it. \n\nFor The Shadow Boxing App, I worked on it for the past three years, but I'm only working on it almost full-time for the past two months. And it was way safer. I could check the product-market fit. I could check if I enjoyed working on it. So, I guess it was easier. I had the luxury of having a full-time job. Building the app didn't take that much time. \n\nBut to answer your question, I think, from my experience, most startups fail. And the ones that succeed it's kind of lightning in a bottle, or, like, there's a lot of factors that get into it. It's hard to replicate. A lot of people try to replicate some science, some ideas. They go, oh, we'll do this, and we'll do that. And we use this technique that Google uses and so on, but it's never that straightforward. \n\nSAMI: Yeah, I'm so happy you said that because I think it's a real brutal truth that I'd also say most of the startup projects that I've worked on probably have failed. Like, there's very few that actually make it. It's such a saturated market. And I think, I guess, in your role as advising startups, it's really good to come in with that honesty at the beginning and to say, \"It's a big investment if you want to build something. Most people probably aren't successful.\" And then, when you work from that perspective, you can have, like, way more transparent and open discussions from the get-go.\n\nBecause when you're outside of tech...and a lot of people have this idea of if I could just get an app to do my idea, I'm going to be the next Facebook. I'm going to be the next, you know, Amazon Marketplace. And it just kind of isn't like that. You've got these massive leaders in Facebook, Amazon, Google, Netflix. But below that, there's a lot of failures and a massively saturated market. So, yeah, just, it's so interesting that you also see it in a similar way. \n\nMARC: What I saw evolve in the past 10 years is the fact that people got more realistic with it. So, maybe 10 years ago, I would have people coming to me with just the most ridiculous idea, like, you know, I'll do Airbnb for cats. And really think, yeah, I just need a good idea, and that's it. But now I feel like people kind of understand that it's more complicated. There's way more resources online. People are more educated. They also see way more successes. Failures are also a bit more advertised.\n\nWe saw a bunch of startups just go under. It feels like every month I get an email from a tool I used in the past saying, \"Oh, we're shutting down,\" and so on. So, I think it's not as bad as 10 years ago where weekly I would have just people asking me, \"I want to build this app,\" and the app would be just the most ridiculous thing or something that would be really smart, but it's really like, \"Oh, I want to do, like, food delivery but better than what exists.\" It's like, yeah, that's a really good idea, but then you need...it's not only software. There's logistics. There's so much behind it that you don't seem to understand just yet.\n\nBut, as a coach, so, what I'm doing is I'm helping startups that are usually before or after series A but not too large of startups just go to the next stage. And people are really aware of that and really worried. Like, they see money going down, market fit not necessarily being there. And they know, like, their company is at risk. \n\nAnd especially when you talk to founders, they're really aware that, you know, everything could be collapsing really quickly. If they make, like, three really bad decisions in a row, you're basically done. Obviously, it depends on the company, but yeah, people are more aware than before, especially nowadays where money is a bit harder to get. Let's say two years ago, there was infinite money, it felt like. Now it's more tight. People are more looking at the unit economics precisely. So, people need to be more realistic to succeed. \n\nRÉMY: What's the kind of recurrent struggle the startups you coach usually face? Apparently, it quite changed in the past decade, but maybe what are the current struggles they face? \n\nMARC: It really depends. It's kind of broad. But, usually, it would be, let's say, a startup after their first round of funding, let's say, if you take startups that are looking for funding. So, you usually have a group of founders, two to four, usually two or three, that are really entrepreneurs that want to bootstrap some things. \nThey're builders. They're hacking things together, and they're really excited about the product.\n\nAnd, suddenly, fast forward a few years, they're starting to be successful, and they have to lead a team of, you know, like, 50 people, 100 people, and they weren't prepared for that. They were really prepared to, like, build software. Like, especially the CTOs, they are usually really great hackers. They can, like, create a product really quickly. But, suddenly, they need to manage 30 engineers, and it's completely different, and they're struggling with that. So, that's a common problem for CTOs. And then, it creates a bunch of problems. \n\nLike, you would have CEOs and CTOs not agreeing on how to approach the strategy, how to approach building a thing. What should be the methodology? Something that worked with 3 engineers around the table doesn't work with 50 engineers distributed in 5 countries. And if it's your first time being a CTO, and often founders of early-stage startups are first-time CTOs, it can be really hard to figure out. \n\nMID-ROLL AD:\n\nAre your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features?\n\nWe know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it’s easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn’t looking.\n\nBy delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer.\n\nSave time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops.\n\nRÉMY: In your past companies, so you've been VP and CTO. So, in your opinion, what's the best a VP or a CTO can bring to a scaling startup? What are your best tips to share? \n\nMARC: I guess it depends [laughs], obviously, like, depending on the stage of the company, the size of the company. For instance, when I was at Drivy, at some point, the most important thing was scaling the team hiring, and so on. But, at some point, we got acquired by Getaround, and the priorities got shifted. It was more like, okay, how do you figure out this new setup for the company and the team? Like, what is good? What is bad? How do you communicate with the team? How do you get people to stay motivated when everything is changing? How do you make sure you make the right decisions? \n\nAnd then, when I joined Back Market, Back Market when I joined, I had a team of a bit less than 12 engineers reporting directly to me. And after a bit more than a year, I had 60, and I hired most of them. So, here the challenge was just scaling insanely fast. Like, the company is really successful. Like, Back Market is selling refurbished electronics in a mission to, you know, provide a viable alternative to buying new electronics. So, it's basically, do you want a smartphone that is both cheaper and more ecologically viable? And most people would say yes to that. So, a company is insanely successful, but it's really hard to scale. \n\nSo, at that point, the role was, okay, how do you make sure you scale as well as possible with a lot of pressure while still leaving the team in a state that they're able to still build software? Because it's just really chaotic. Like, you can't, like, 5X your team without chaos. But how do you minimize that but still go really fast? \n\nSAMI: Yeah. So, not only did I try that Shadow App. I actually went on that Backup website. What's it called? It's not called Backup. What's it called again?\n\nMARC: Back Market. \n\nSAMI: Back Market. Thank you. Yeah, it was really cool. I checked my old iPhone SE from 2020, which I've kept for about...over three years, I've had this iPhone. And they said they would give me $72 for it, which was really cool. So, it sounds like a really cool idea. \n\nMARC: That's something we worked on, which is, basically, if you have any old phones in your drawer, it's a really bad spot for them. And so, there's a service. You go on the website. You say, \"I have this, I have that; I have this, I have that.\" And either we buy it from you, or we just take it away from you, and we recycle them, which is much better than just having them collect dust. \n\nSAMI: Yeah, no, it's a great idea. What interested me when you were speaking about kind of these different positions that you've been in, I was almost expecting you to talk about maybe, like, a technical challenge or code complexity difficulty. But, actually, what you've described is more people problems. And how do we scale with regards to people, and how do we keep people motivated? \n\nSo, I guess using that experience, and this might be counterintuitive to what a lot of people think, but what do you think is the hardest thing about software development? I know there could be many things. But if you had to pick something that is the most difficult, and maybe we can all have an answer to what we think this is, but starting with you, Marc, what do you think is the hardest thing about software development then? \n\nMARC: What I saw is how do you build something that works for enough time to bring value to the customers? So, it's easy to hack something together pretty quickly and get it in front of people, but then it might not be reliable. It might break down. Or you could decide to build something perfect and spend, like, two years on it and then ship it, and then it's really stable, but maybe it's not what people want. And finding this balance between shipping something fast, but shipping something that is reliable enough for what you're building. Obviously, if you're building a health care system, you will have more, like, the bar will be higher than if you build, like, Airbnb for cats.\n\nFinding this balance and adjusting as you go is really hard. So, for instance, when do you introduce caching? Because, obviously, caching is hard to do right. If you don't do it, your site will be slow, which can be okay for a time. But then if you introduce it too late, then it's really hard to just retrofit into whatever you already have. So, finding the right moment to introduce a new practice, introduce a new technology is tricky. \n\nAnd then, like, I talked a lot about the people, and it's also because I spent quite a bit of time in leadership position. But, at the end of the day, it will be the people writing the code that gets the software to exist and run. So, having people aligned and agreeing on the vision is also key because unless I'm the only developer on the project, I can't really make all decisions on things that are going to get built. So, figuring out how to get people motivated, interested in just building in the same direction is really important. It's really easy. \n\nLike, one thing with Drivy, when I was there, that was really fun to see, like, many people have this reaction, especially the more senior people joining the company. They would see the engineering team, and they were really, really surprised by how small it was because we were being really, really efficient. Like, we were paying really close attention to what we would work on. \n\nSo, kind of technology we would introduce would be quite conservative on both to really be able to deliver what is the most important. So, we were able to do a lot with, honestly, not a lot of people. And I think this is a great mark for success. You don't need a thousand people to build your software if you ask the right question, like, \"Do I need to build X or Y?\" and always having these discussions.\n\nRÉMY: What's your opinion on that, Sami? \n\nSAMI: Yeah, I guess it changes. Like, for example, today, the hardest thing about software development was just getting Jira to work. That has literally ruined my whole day. But I've found, for me, what I find is the most difficult thing to do is making code resilient to change. What I mean by that is writing code that's easy to change. And a lot of that, I guess, we try to work on at thoughtbot, as consultants, is following kind of design principles and best practices and certain design patterns that really make the code easy to change. Because that, I think, when I'm writing code is the biggest challenge. \n\nAnd where I feel when I'm working with our clients one of the biggest things they can invest in, which is difficult because there's not a lot of visibility around it or metrics, is ensuring that code that's written is easy to change because, at some point, it will. And I've also worked on systems which are bigger, and when you can't change them, conversations start happening about the cost of change. Do we rewrite it from the ground up again? And that opens a whole different can of worms. So, that, for me, I think, is definitely one of the hardest things. How about yourself, Rémy? \n\nRÉMY: I don't know about the most difficult. I mean, there are many things difficult. But I remember something that I had to put extra effort, so maybe it was one of the most difficult for me. When I started being a consultant, when I joined thoughtbot was to understand what's the boundary between executing and giving an advice? So, basically, I discovered that when you're a consultant, but it works also when you're a developer in a team, you know, you're not just only the one who is going to write the code. You're supposed to be also someone with expertise, experience to share it and to make the project and the team benefit from it. \n\nSo, at some point, I discovered that I should not just listen to what the client would say they want. Obviously, that's what they want, but it's more interesting and more difficult to understand why they want it and why they actually need, which could be different from what they want. So, it's a whole different conversation to discover together what is actually the necessary thing to build, and with your expertise and experience, try to find the thing that is going to be the most efficient, reliable, and making both the client and the customers happy. \n\nMARC: Yeah. And as software engineers, it's really easy to get excited about a problem and just go, \"Oh, I could solve it this way.\" But then you need to step back and go, \"Well, maybe it doesn't need fixing, or we should do something completely different.\" At some point, I was working with a customer service organization. In their workflows, they had to go on, let's say, five different pages and click on the button to get something to do one action. \n\nAnd so, what they asked for is to have those five buttons on one single page, and so, they could go, click, click, click, click, click. But after looking at it, what they needed is just automation of that, not five buttons on the page. But it's really easy to go, oh, and we could make those buttons, like, kind of generic and have a button creator thing and make it really fancy. When you step back, you go, oh, they shouldn't be clicking that many buttons.\n\nSAMI: Yeah, that makes so much sense because just in that example...I can't remember where I read this, but every line of code you write has to be maintained. So, in that example where you've got five buttons, you're kind of maintaining probably a lot more code than when you've got the single button, which goes to, I don't know, a single action or a method that will handle kind of all the automation for you. And that's also, you know, driving at simplicity. \n\nSo, sometimes, like, you see this really cool problem, and there's a really cool way to solve it. But if you can solve it, you mentioned, like, being conservative with the type of frameworks maybe you used in a previous company, like, solve it in the most simple way, and you'll thank yourself later. Because, at some point, you have to come back to it, and maintain it, change it. Yeah, so it makes a lot of sense. \n\nAnd, Marc, you said you started when you were 7, which is really young. Through that amount of time, you've probably seen massive changes in the way websites look, feel, and how they work. In that time, what's the biggest change you actually think you've seen? \n\nMARC: The biggest thing I saw is, when I started, internet didn't exist or at least wasn't available. Like, I remember being at school and the teacher would ask like, \"How many people have a computer at home?\" And we'd be like, two or three people. So, people didn't have internet until I was like 14, 15, I'd say. So, that's the biggest one. \n\nBut, let's say, after it started, they just got more complicated. Like, so, the complexity is getting crazy. Like, I remember, at some point, where I saw I think it was called Aviary. It was basically Photoshop in the browser, and I was just insanely impressed by just the fact that you could do this in the browser. And, nowadays, like, you've got Figma, and you've got so many tools that are insanely impressive. Back then, it was just text, images, and that's it. \n\nI actually wrote a blog post a few years ago about how I used to build websites just using frames. So, I don't know if you're familiar with just frames, but I didn't really know how to do divs. So, I would just do frames because that's what I understood back then, again, little kid. But it was kind of working. You were dealing with IE 5 or, like, I remember, like, professionally fixing bugs for IE 5.5 or, like, AOL, like, 9, something ridiculous like this. \n\nSo, building a website just got way easier but also way more complicated, if that makes sense. Like, it's way easier to do most things. For instance, I don't know, like, 20 years ago, you wanted a rounded corner; you would have to create images and kind of overlay them in a weird way. It would break in many cases. Nowadays, you want rounded corners? That's a non-topic. But now you need, like, offline capabilities of your website. And, in a lot of cases, there's really complex features that are expected from users. So, the bar is getting raised to crazy levels. \n\nSAMI: Yeah, I always wonder about this. Like, when you look at how the internet used to be and how people develop for the internet, and, like you're saying, now it's more complex but easier to do some things. I don't know if as developers we're making things harder or easier for ourselves. Like, if you look at the amount of technology someone needs to know to get started, it grows constantly. To do this, you have to add this framework, and you need to have this library, and maybe even a different language, and then, to even host something now, the amount of technologies you need to know. Do you think we're making things harder for ourselves, or do you think easier? \n\nMARC: Well, I guess there's always back and forth, like, regarding complexity. So, things will get really, really complex, and then someone will go, \"Well, let's stop that and simplify.\" That's why, like, I'm seeing some people not rejecting React and so on, but going a simpler route like Rails has options like this. There's people using HTMX, which is really simple. So, just going back to something simpler. \n\nI think a lot of the really complex solutions also come from the fact that now we have massive teams building websites, and you need that complexity to be able to handle the team size. But it's kind of, then you need more people to handle the complexity, and it's just getting crazy. Yeah, honestly, I don't know. I'm seeing a lot of things that feel too complex for...like, the technology feels really complicated to accomplish some things that should be simple or at least feel simple. But, at the same time, there are things that got so simple that it's ridiculous like just accepting payment. \n\nI remember, like, if you wanted to accept payment on a site, it would be months of work, and now it takes a minute. You just plug in Stripe, and it works. And it's often cheaper than what it used to be. So, it's kind of...or deploying. You mentioned deploying can be really hard. Well, you don't need to have a physical server in your room just eating your place up to have your website, your personal website running. You just push it to Vercel, or Heroku, or whatever, or just a static page on S3. So, this got simpler, but then, yeah, you can get it to be so much more crazy. So, if you host your static website on S3, fairly simple. But then if you try to understand permissions on S3, then, you know, it's over. \n\nRÉMY: I don't know if it's really in the path of our discussion. I just wanted to ask you, so this is the on tour series, where we...so, usually, the Giant Robots podcast used to be a little bit more American-centric, and this on tour is moving back to the other side of the Atlantic with, again, Europe, West Asia, and Africa. You've been part of a company, Drivy, which expanded from France to neighboring countries in Europe. What could you tell our listeners about how to expand a business internationally? \n\nMARC: That's a tough question, especially in Europe. Because I know looking from the outside, like, if you're from the U.S. and you look at Europe, it feels like, you know, a uniform continent, but really, it's very different. Like, just payment methods are different. Culture is very different. \n\nFor instance, when I was working at Back Market in France, one of the branding aspects of Back Market was its humor. Like, we would be making a lot of jokes on the website, and it would work really well in France. Like, people would love the brand. But then you expand to other countries, and they just don't find that funny at all. Like, it's not helping at all, and they're expecting a different tone of voice. So, it's not just, okay, I need to translate my own page; it's I need to internationalize for this market. \n\nI guess my advice is do it country by country. Sometimes I see companies going like, oh, we opened in 20 different countries, and you go, how even do you do that? And spend some time understanding how people are using your product or, like, a similar product locally because you would be surprised by what you learn. Sometimes there's different capabilities. \n\nFor instance, when Drivy went to the UK, there's so much more you can learn. There's the government database that you can look up, and it really helps with managing risk. If people are known to steal cars, you can kind of figure it out. I'm simplifying a bit, but you can use this. You don't have that in France because we just don't have this solution. But if you go to Nordic countries, for instance, they have way more electric vehicles, so maybe the product doesn't work as well. \n\nSo, it's really understanding what's different locally and being willing to invest, to adapt. Because if you go, okay, I'm going to open in the Netherlands but you don't adopt the payment methods that are used in the Netherlands, you might as well not open at all. So, it's either you do it properly and you kind of figure out what properly means for your product, or you postpone, and you do it well later. \n\nLike, right now, I'm struggling a bit with my app because it's open. So, it's on the App Store, so it's open globally. And it's a SaaS, so it's simpler, but I struggle with language. So, it's in French and English. I spoke both of this language, obviously, French better than English. But I think I'm doing okay with both. But I also built it in Spanish because I speak some Spanish fairly poorly, and I wanted to try to hit a different market like the Mexican market that are doing boxing quite a lot. But the quality doesn't seem there. \n\nLike, I don't have the specific boxing lingo, so I'm contemplating just rolling it back, like, removing the Spanish language until I get it really well, maybe with a translator dedicated to it that knows boxing in Spanish. Because I work with translators that would translate, but they don't really know that, yeah, like a jab in boxing. In Spanish, they might also say, \"Jab.\" They won't translate it to, like, [inaudible 38:31]. \n\nSAMI: Yeah. At thoughtbot, we have one of our clients they wanted to release their app also internationally. And so, we had also kind of a lot of these problems. We even had to handle...so, in some languages, you go from left to right, right to left. So, that kind of also changed a lot of the way you would design things is mainly for people who are going from left to right. I mean, that's thinking kind of more Europe, U.S.-centric. And then, you could be releasing your app into a different country where they read the other direction. \n\nSo, yeah, a lot of this stuff is really interesting, especially the culture, like you're saying. Do they find this humor funny? And then, how do they translate things? Which, in my head, I think, could you use AI to do that. Which is a nice segue into, like, the mandatory question about AI, which we can't let you go until we ask you. \n\nMARC: [laughs]\n\nSAMI: So, okay, obviously, I'm going to ask you about your thoughts on AI and where you think we're headed. But I've seen something interesting, which I don't know if this is something that resonates with you as well. I've seen a bit of a trend where the more experienced developers or more senior developers I talk to seem to be a bit more calm and less concerned. Whereas I would consider myself as less experienced, and I feel, like, kind of more anxious, more nervous, more jumping on the bandwagon sort of feeling of keeping an eye on it. So, I guess, with your experience, what are your thoughts on AI? Where do you think we are headed? \n\nMARC: That's a big question, and it feels like it's changing month to month. It feels way more interesting than other trends before. Like, I'm way more excited about the capabilities of AI than, like, NFTs or stuff like this. I'm actively using AI tooling in my app. I was using some AI at Back Market. So, it's interesting. There's a bunch of things you can be doing. \n\nPersonally, I don't think that it's going to, like, make programming irrelevant, for instance. It will just change a bit how you will build things just like...so, we talked about what changed in the past. For instance, at some point, you would need a team of people moving around physical computers and servers and just hooking them up to be able to have a website. But now, most people would just use a cloud provider. So, all those people either they work for the cloud provider, or they're out of a job. But really what happened is most shifted into something different, and then we focused on something different. Instead of learning how to handle a farm of servers, we learned how to, I don't know, handle more concurrency in our models.\n\nAnd I think when I look back, I feel like, technically, maybe, I don't know, 70%, 80% of what I learned is now useless. Like, I spent years getting really good at handling Internet Explorer as a web developer. Now it's just gone, so it's just gone forever. And it feels like there's some practice that we're having right now that will be gone forever thanks to AI or because of AI, depending on how you look at it. But then there'll be new things to do. I'm not sure yet what it will be, but it will create new opportunities. There are some things that look a bit scary, like, or creepy. But I'm not worried about jobs or things like this. \n\nI'm a bit concerned about people learning programming right now because, yeah, there's a lot of hand-holding, and there's a lot of tools that you have to pay to get access to this hand-holding. So, if you're a student right now in school learning programming and your school is giving you some AI assistant, like Copilot or whatever, and this assistant is really good, but suddenly it goes away because you're not paying anymore, or, like, the model change, if you don't know how to code anymore, then it's a problem. Or maybe you're not struggling as much. And you're not digging deep enough, and so you're learning slower. And you're being a bit robbed of the opportunity to learn by the AI. So, it's just giving you the solution. \n\nBut it's just, like, the way I use it right now, so I don't have an assistant enabled, but I usually have, like, a ChatGPT window open somewhere. It's more like a better Stack Overflow or a more precise Stack Overflow. And that helps me a lot, and that's really convenient. Like, right now, I'm building mostly using Swift and Swift UI, but I'm mainly a Ruby and JavaScript developer. So, I'm struggling a lot and being able to ask really simple questions. \n\nI had a case just this morning where I asked how to handle loading of images without using the assets folder in Xcode. I just couldn't figure it out, but it's really simple. So, it was able to tell me, like, right away, like, five options on how to do it, and I was able to pick the one that would fit. So, yeah, really interesting, but yeah, I'm not that worried. The only part I would be worried is if people are learning right now and relying way too much on AI. \n\nRÉMY: Well, at least it's positive for our job. Thank you for making us believe in a bright future, Marc. \n\nMARC: [laughs]\n\nRÉMY: All right. Thank you so much, Marc, for joining us. It was a real pleasure. Before we leave, Marc, if you want to be contacted, if people want to get a hold of you, how can you be contacted? \n\nMARC: There's two ways: either LinkedIn, look up Marc G Gauthier. Like, the middle initial is important because Marc Gauthier is basically John Smith in France. My website, which is marcgg.com. You can find my blog. You can find a way to hire me as a coach or advisor. That's the best way to reach out to me.\n\nRÉMY: Thank you so much. And thank you, Sami, as well. \n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have any questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on social media as rhannequin. \n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.\n\nThanks for listening, and see you next time. \n\n AD:\n\nDid you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.\n\nMore info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.Sponsored By:thoughtbot: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? \r\n\r\nWe know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it’s easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn’t looking.\r\n\r\nBy delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer.\r\n\r\nSave time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops","content_html":"In the latest episode of the "Giant Robots On Tour" podcast, hosts Rémy Hannequin and Sami Birnbaum welcome Marc G. Gauthier, a solopreneur and startup coach, who shares his journey from software development to becoming the founder and developer of The Shadow Boxing App. Marc describes how his interest in software engineering began at a young age with QBasic and evolved through various leadership roles at companies like Drivy (now Getaround) and Back Market. His early passion for gaming led him to learn coding, and over time, he naturally transitioned into management roles, finding excitement in organizing and leading teams while maintaining his love for building products.
\n\nDuring the episode, Marc discusses the challenges and intricacies of scaling startups, emphasizing the importance of balancing speed and reliability in software development. He recounts his experiences in leadership positions, where he faced the dual task of managing rapid team growth and maintaining software efficiency. Marc also shares insights into the startup ecosystem, noting that most startups struggle to achieve success due to a combination of market timing, team dynamics, and resource management. His own venture, The Shadow Boxing App, represents his attempt to return to hands-on coding while leveraging his extensive experience in startup coaching and advising.
\n\nMarc also touches on the role of AI in the future of software development, expressing cautious optimism about its potential to augment human workflows and automate repetitive tasks. He advises current and aspiring developers to embrace AI as a tool to enhance their capabilities rather than a replacement for human ingenuity. Marc concludes by highlighting the importance of realistic expectations in the startup world and the need for continuous learning and adaptation in the ever-evolving tech landscape.
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nRÉMY: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, the Giant Robots on Tour series coming to you from Europe, West Asia, and Africa, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Rémy Hannequin.
\n\nSAMI: And I'm your other host, Sami Birnbaum.
\n\nRÉMY: If you are wondering who we are, make sure you find the previous podcast where we introduced the Giant Robots on Tour series by throwing random icebreakers at each other. And find out that Jared likes it when someone takes the time to understand someone else's point of view.
\n\nJoining us today is Marc G Gauthier, a Solopreneur and Startup Coach.
\n\nMarc, you used to be VP of Engineering at Drivy, now known as Getaround, and also Director of Engineering at Back Market. You also have been a coach and advisor to a startup for over a decade. Currently, your current adventure is being the Founder and Developer of The Shadow Boxing App available on the Apple App Store. We always like to go back to the start with our guests. Everyone has a story, and we are interested in your journey. So, Marc, what led you into the world of software engineering in the first place?
\n\nMARC: Hello. Well, happy to be here. And, yeah, I started getting into software development quite a long time ago. I actually learned software development with QBasic when I was something like seven. And, from there, I just kept on learning, learning, and learning and got into school for it, then worked in different startups, and then moved into more leadership position management. And I'm now, like, coaching people and building my own product.
\n\nWhat do you want to get? Because it's broad. I've been doing it for quite a while. Like, I don't think the QBasic days are that insightful. The only thing I remember from that time is being confused by the print comment that I would expect it to print on my printer or something, but it didn't; it just printed on the screen. That's the only thing I have from back then.
\n\nSAMI: Why at seven years old? And I'm taking you back too far, but at seven years old, I was probably collecting Pokémon cards and possibly like, you know, those football stickers. I don't know if you had the Panini stickers.
\n\nMARC: Oh yeah, I was doing that as well.
\n\nSAMI: But you were doing that as well. But then what drove you at that age? What do you think it was that made you think, I want to start learning to code, or play around with the computer, or get into tech?
\n\nMARC: [laughs] Yeah. Well, I remember, back then, I really wanted a computer to play games. Like, I had a friend who had a computer. He was playing games, and I wanted to do that. So, I was asking my mom to have a computer, and she told me, "Yeah, you can have one." And she found a really old computer she bought from a neighbor, I think. But she told me like, "I don't know anything about it. So, you have to figure it out and set it up." And she just found someone to kind of help me. And this person told me to, like, take the computer apart. She taught me a bit of software development, and I kind of liked it.
\n\nAnd I was always trying to change the games. Back then, it was way easier. You could just edit a sound file, and you would just edit the sound file in the game, so yeah, just learning like this. It wasn't really my intent to learn programming. It just kind of happened because I wanted to play video games really.
\n\nSAMI: That's really cool. It's really interesting. Rémy, do you remember how...how did you first get...do you remember your first computer, Rémy?
\n\nRÉMY: My first computer, I think I remember, but the first one I used it was, first, a very long time ago. I discovered that it was an Apple computer way, way later when I discovered what Apple was and what computers were actually. And I just remember playing SimCity 2000 on it, and it was amazing. And we had to, you know, cancel people from making phone calls while we were on the computer because of the internet and all the way we had to connect to the internet back then.
\n\nAnd after that, just, I think, Windows 95 at home. Yeah, that's the only thing I can remember actually. Because I think I was lucky, so I got one quite early. And I don't really remember not having one, so I was quite lucky with that. And so, I was always kind of in the computer game without being too much [inaudible 05:02] [laughs].
\n\nSAMI: Yeah, I think that's similar to me as well. Like, it's interesting because my initial introduction to computers would have been watching my older brothers kind of play computer games and actually being told to get out the room, or like, you know, "We're busy now. Don't bother us." And then, what actually happened is when they left the room, I managed to play what they were playing, which was the first ever GTA. I don't know if anyone ever played this, but it is so cool if you look back on it. You could probably find emulators online, but it was, like, a bird's eye view, like, way of operating.
\n\nAnd it was probably also that drive where you get frustrated on a computer because you want to do something, so, like you were saying, Marc, where you went to edit the sound files because you want to change something. You want to do something. I definitely think that is something which I felt as well is that frustration of I want to change this thing. And then, that kind of gets into well, how does it work? And if I know how it works, then I can probably change it.
\n\nMARC: Yeah. And once you figure out how things work, it's also really exciting. Like, once you figure out the initialization file on Windows, like, you can edit, like, what level is unlocked right away. It's kind of cheat codes but not really. And there are some really fun ones. Like, I would edit sound files for racing games. And, usually, it's just a base sound file, and then they would pitch shift the sound to make it sound like an engine. So, if you record your voice, it's just really funny.
\n\nRÉMY: So, Marc, you mentioned moving to management positions quite early. Do you remember what made you do this move? Was it for, like, a natural path in your career, or was it something you really wanted from the first part of your career as a developer? What happened at this moment?
\n\nMARC: Yeah, that was not completely planned. Like, I don't think I really plan my career precisely. It's just something that happens. So, I joined Drivy after, like, I was already a software engineer for, like, five years at that point. I joined as a lead backend engineer. I did that for three years. And after three years, the company went from...I think there was, like, three software engineers to a dozen. There was a need for more structure, and the CTO, at the time so, Nicolas, wanted to focus more on products. And it was hard to do both, like do the product side, the design, the data, and do the engineering, the software, and so on.
\n\nSo, he wanted to get a bit away from software engineering and more into product. So, there was a gap in the organization. I was there. I was interested to try, and I was already doing some more things on the human side, so talking to people, organizing, internal communication. I kind of liked it. So, I was excited to try, give it a try. It was really interesting.
\n\nI found that it was a different way to have an impact on the team. I just kept doing it. And my plan was to keep doing it until I'm bored with it. And I'm still not bored with it, even though you kind of miss just actually building the software yourselves, actually coding. So, that's also why I'm trying something different right now with my mobile app adventure.
\n\nSAMI: Right. So, on the side, you've got this Shadow Boxing App, which, in my dedicated research, I downloaded and had a go with it.
\n\nMARC: Did you actually try it, or did you just click around?
\n\nSAMI: I did a proper workout, mate. I did. I put myself as, like, the absolute beginner. I did it on my MacBook Pro. I know it's built for iPad or iPhone, but it still worked amazingly well. And it kind of reminded me why I stopped doing boxing because it's hard work.
\n\nMARC: [laughs] Yeah, it is.
\n\nSAMI: It's not a gimmick this thing, right? So, it's like, the best way to describe it is it's essentially replacing if I was to go to the gym and have a trainer who's telling me kind of the moves to make or how to do it, then this kind of replaces that trainer. So, it's something you can do at home. It was really cool. I was surprised, actually. I thought, at the beginning, it's not going to be that interactive, or it won't actually be as hard or difficult as a workout, and it really was. So, it's, yeah, it was really cool, really interesting to try it.
\n\nAnd going into that, you say you wanted to get back more into coding, and that's why you are doing this kind of, like, app on the side, or it allowed you to kind of do a bit more coding away from the people management. You've been involved in a lot of startups, and I actually often get...as consultants, when we work at thoughtbot, we get a lot of people who come with different startup ideas. When you look back at all the startups you've been involved with, do you think more startups are successful than those that fail? Or have you seen a lot of startups...actually, people come with these great ideas; they want to build this amazing product, but it's actually really hard to be a successful product?
\n\nMARC: I think it's [inaudible 10:22] how to have the right idea, be at the right spot at the right time, build the right team, get enough momentum. I think most startups fail, and even startups that are successful often can be the result of a pivot. Like, I know companies that pivoted a bunch of times before finding any success. So, it's really hard actually...if I take my past four companies, only two are still alive. Like, the first two went under. Actually, there's even more companies that went under after I left. Yeah, it's just really hard to get anything off the ground. So, yeah, it's complicated, and I have a lot of respect for all the founders that go through it.
\n\nFor The Shadow Boxing App, I worked on it for the past three years, but I'm only working on it almost full-time for the past two months. And it was way safer. I could check the product-market fit. I could check if I enjoyed working on it. So, I guess it was easier. I had the luxury of having a full-time job. Building the app didn't take that much time.
\n\nBut to answer your question, I think, from my experience, most startups fail. And the ones that succeed it's kind of lightning in a bottle, or, like, there's a lot of factors that get into it. It's hard to replicate. A lot of people try to replicate some science, some ideas. They go, oh, we'll do this, and we'll do that. And we use this technique that Google uses and so on, but it's never that straightforward.
\n\nSAMI: Yeah, I'm so happy you said that because I think it's a real brutal truth that I'd also say most of the startup projects that I've worked on probably have failed. Like, there's very few that actually make it. It's such a saturated market. And I think, I guess, in your role as advising startups, it's really good to come in with that honesty at the beginning and to say, "It's a big investment if you want to build something. Most people probably aren't successful." And then, when you work from that perspective, you can have, like, way more transparent and open discussions from the get-go.
\n\nBecause when you're outside of tech...and a lot of people have this idea of if I could just get an app to do my idea, I'm going to be the next Facebook. I'm going to be the next, you know, Amazon Marketplace. And it just kind of isn't like that. You've got these massive leaders in Facebook, Amazon, Google, Netflix. But below that, there's a lot of failures and a massively saturated market. So, yeah, just, it's so interesting that you also see it in a similar way.
\n\nMARC: What I saw evolve in the past 10 years is the fact that people got more realistic with it. So, maybe 10 years ago, I would have people coming to me with just the most ridiculous idea, like, you know, I'll do Airbnb for cats. And really think, yeah, I just need a good idea, and that's it. But now I feel like people kind of understand that it's more complicated. There's way more resources online. People are more educated. They also see way more successes. Failures are also a bit more advertised.
\n\nWe saw a bunch of startups just go under. It feels like every month I get an email from a tool I used in the past saying, "Oh, we're shutting down," and so on. So, I think it's not as bad as 10 years ago where weekly I would have just people asking me, "I want to build this app," and the app would be just the most ridiculous thing or something that would be really smart, but it's really like, "Oh, I want to do, like, food delivery but better than what exists." It's like, yeah, that's a really good idea, but then you need...it's not only software. There's logistics. There's so much behind it that you don't seem to understand just yet.
\n\nBut, as a coach, so, what I'm doing is I'm helping startups that are usually before or after series A but not too large of startups just go to the next stage. And people are really aware of that and really worried. Like, they see money going down, market fit not necessarily being there. And they know, like, their company is at risk.
\n\nAnd especially when you talk to founders, they're really aware that, you know, everything could be collapsing really quickly. If they make, like, three really bad decisions in a row, you're basically done. Obviously, it depends on the company, but yeah, people are more aware than before, especially nowadays where money is a bit harder to get. Let's say two years ago, there was infinite money, it felt like. Now it's more tight. People are more looking at the unit economics precisely. So, people need to be more realistic to succeed.
\n\nRÉMY: What's the kind of recurrent struggle the startups you coach usually face? Apparently, it quite changed in the past decade, but maybe what are the current struggles they face?
\n\nMARC: It really depends. It's kind of broad. But, usually, it would be, let's say, a startup after their first round of funding, let's say, if you take startups that are looking for funding. So, you usually have a group of founders, two to four, usually two or three, that are really entrepreneurs that want to bootstrap some things.
\nThey're builders. They're hacking things together, and they're really excited about the product.
And, suddenly, fast forward a few years, they're starting to be successful, and they have to lead a team of, you know, like, 50 people, 100 people, and they weren't prepared for that. They were really prepared to, like, build software. Like, especially the CTOs, they are usually really great hackers. They can, like, create a product really quickly. But, suddenly, they need to manage 30 engineers, and it's completely different, and they're struggling with that. So, that's a common problem for CTOs. And then, it creates a bunch of problems.
\n\nLike, you would have CEOs and CTOs not agreeing on how to approach the strategy, how to approach building a thing. What should be the methodology? Something that worked with 3 engineers around the table doesn't work with 50 engineers distributed in 5 countries. And if it's your first time being a CTO, and often founders of early-stage startups are first-time CTOs, it can be really hard to figure out.
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\n\nRÉMY: In your past companies, so you've been VP and CTO. So, in your opinion, what's the best a VP or a CTO can bring to a scaling startup? What are your best tips to share?
\n\nMARC: I guess it depends [laughs], obviously, like, depending on the stage of the company, the size of the company. For instance, when I was at Drivy, at some point, the most important thing was scaling the team hiring, and so on. But, at some point, we got acquired by Getaround, and the priorities got shifted. It was more like, okay, how do you figure out this new setup for the company and the team? Like, what is good? What is bad? How do you communicate with the team? How do you get people to stay motivated when everything is changing? How do you make sure you make the right decisions?
\n\nAnd then, when I joined Back Market, Back Market when I joined, I had a team of a bit less than 12 engineers reporting directly to me. And after a bit more than a year, I had 60, and I hired most of them. So, here the challenge was just scaling insanely fast. Like, the company is really successful. Like, Back Market is selling refurbished electronics in a mission to, you know, provide a viable alternative to buying new electronics. So, it's basically, do you want a smartphone that is both cheaper and more ecologically viable? And most people would say yes to that. So, a company is insanely successful, but it's really hard to scale.
\n\nSo, at that point, the role was, okay, how do you make sure you scale as well as possible with a lot of pressure while still leaving the team in a state that they're able to still build software? Because it's just really chaotic. Like, you can't, like, 5X your team without chaos. But how do you minimize that but still go really fast?
\n\nSAMI: Yeah. So, not only did I try that Shadow App. I actually went on that Backup website. What's it called? It's not called Backup. What's it called again?
\n\nMARC: Back Market.
\n\nSAMI: Back Market. Thank you. Yeah, it was really cool. I checked my old iPhone SE from 2020, which I've kept for about...over three years, I've had this iPhone. And they said they would give me $72 for it, which was really cool. So, it sounds like a really cool idea.
\n\nMARC: That's something we worked on, which is, basically, if you have any old phones in your drawer, it's a really bad spot for them. And so, there's a service. You go on the website. You say, "I have this, I have that; I have this, I have that." And either we buy it from you, or we just take it away from you, and we recycle them, which is much better than just having them collect dust.
\n\nSAMI: Yeah, no, it's a great idea. What interested me when you were speaking about kind of these different positions that you've been in, I was almost expecting you to talk about maybe, like, a technical challenge or code complexity difficulty. But, actually, what you've described is more people problems. And how do we scale with regards to people, and how do we keep people motivated?
\n\nSo, I guess using that experience, and this might be counterintuitive to what a lot of people think, but what do you think is the hardest thing about software development? I know there could be many things. But if you had to pick something that is the most difficult, and maybe we can all have an answer to what we think this is, but starting with you, Marc, what do you think is the hardest thing about software development then?
\n\nMARC: What I saw is how do you build something that works for enough time to bring value to the customers? So, it's easy to hack something together pretty quickly and get it in front of people, but then it might not be reliable. It might break down. Or you could decide to build something perfect and spend, like, two years on it and then ship it, and then it's really stable, but maybe it's not what people want. And finding this balance between shipping something fast, but shipping something that is reliable enough for what you're building. Obviously, if you're building a health care system, you will have more, like, the bar will be higher than if you build, like, Airbnb for cats.
\n\nFinding this balance and adjusting as you go is really hard. So, for instance, when do you introduce caching? Because, obviously, caching is hard to do right. If you don't do it, your site will be slow, which can be okay for a time. But then if you introduce it too late, then it's really hard to just retrofit into whatever you already have. So, finding the right moment to introduce a new practice, introduce a new technology is tricky.
\n\nAnd then, like, I talked a lot about the people, and it's also because I spent quite a bit of time in leadership position. But, at the end of the day, it will be the people writing the code that gets the software to exist and run. So, having people aligned and agreeing on the vision is also key because unless I'm the only developer on the project, I can't really make all decisions on things that are going to get built. So, figuring out how to get people motivated, interested in just building in the same direction is really important. It's really easy.
\n\nLike, one thing with Drivy, when I was there, that was really fun to see, like, many people have this reaction, especially the more senior people joining the company. They would see the engineering team, and they were really, really surprised by how small it was because we were being really, really efficient. Like, we were paying really close attention to what we would work on.
\n\nSo, kind of technology we would introduce would be quite conservative on both to really be able to deliver what is the most important. So, we were able to do a lot with, honestly, not a lot of people. And I think this is a great mark for success. You don't need a thousand people to build your software if you ask the right question, like, "Do I need to build X or Y?" and always having these discussions.
\n\nRÉMY: What's your opinion on that, Sami?
\n\nSAMI: Yeah, I guess it changes. Like, for example, today, the hardest thing about software development was just getting Jira to work. That has literally ruined my whole day. But I've found, for me, what I find is the most difficult thing to do is making code resilient to change. What I mean by that is writing code that's easy to change. And a lot of that, I guess, we try to work on at thoughtbot, as consultants, is following kind of design principles and best practices and certain design patterns that really make the code easy to change. Because that, I think, when I'm writing code is the biggest challenge.
\n\nAnd where I feel when I'm working with our clients one of the biggest things they can invest in, which is difficult because there's not a lot of visibility around it or metrics, is ensuring that code that's written is easy to change because, at some point, it will. And I've also worked on systems which are bigger, and when you can't change them, conversations start happening about the cost of change. Do we rewrite it from the ground up again? And that opens a whole different can of worms. So, that, for me, I think, is definitely one of the hardest things. How about yourself, Rémy?
\n\nRÉMY: I don't know about the most difficult. I mean, there are many things difficult. But I remember something that I had to put extra effort, so maybe it was one of the most difficult for me. When I started being a consultant, when I joined thoughtbot was to understand what's the boundary between executing and giving an advice? So, basically, I discovered that when you're a consultant, but it works also when you're a developer in a team, you know, you're not just only the one who is going to write the code. You're supposed to be also someone with expertise, experience to share it and to make the project and the team benefit from it.
\n\nSo, at some point, I discovered that I should not just listen to what the client would say they want. Obviously, that's what they want, but it's more interesting and more difficult to understand why they want it and why they actually need, which could be different from what they want. So, it's a whole different conversation to discover together what is actually the necessary thing to build, and with your expertise and experience, try to find the thing that is going to be the most efficient, reliable, and making both the client and the customers happy.
\n\nMARC: Yeah. And as software engineers, it's really easy to get excited about a problem and just go, "Oh, I could solve it this way." But then you need to step back and go, "Well, maybe it doesn't need fixing, or we should do something completely different." At some point, I was working with a customer service organization. In their workflows, they had to go on, let's say, five different pages and click on the button to get something to do one action.
\n\nAnd so, what they asked for is to have those five buttons on one single page, and so, they could go, click, click, click, click, click. But after looking at it, what they needed is just automation of that, not five buttons on the page. But it's really easy to go, oh, and we could make those buttons, like, kind of generic and have a button creator thing and make it really fancy. When you step back, you go, oh, they shouldn't be clicking that many buttons.
\n\nSAMI: Yeah, that makes so much sense because just in that example...I can't remember where I read this, but every line of code you write has to be maintained. So, in that example where you've got five buttons, you're kind of maintaining probably a lot more code than when you've got the single button, which goes to, I don't know, a single action or a method that will handle kind of all the automation for you. And that's also, you know, driving at simplicity.
\n\nSo, sometimes, like, you see this really cool problem, and there's a really cool way to solve it. But if you can solve it, you mentioned, like, being conservative with the type of frameworks maybe you used in a previous company, like, solve it in the most simple way, and you'll thank yourself later. Because, at some point, you have to come back to it, and maintain it, change it. Yeah, so it makes a lot of sense.
\n\nAnd, Marc, you said you started when you were 7, which is really young. Through that amount of time, you've probably seen massive changes in the way websites look, feel, and how they work. In that time, what's the biggest change you actually think you've seen?
\n\nMARC: The biggest thing I saw is, when I started, internet didn't exist or at least wasn't available. Like, I remember being at school and the teacher would ask like, "How many people have a computer at home?" And we'd be like, two or three people. So, people didn't have internet until I was like 14, 15, I'd say. So, that's the biggest one.
\n\nBut, let's say, after it started, they just got more complicated. Like, so, the complexity is getting crazy. Like, I remember, at some point, where I saw I think it was called Aviary. It was basically Photoshop in the browser, and I was just insanely impressed by just the fact that you could do this in the browser. And, nowadays, like, you've got Figma, and you've got so many tools that are insanely impressive. Back then, it was just text, images, and that's it.
\n\nI actually wrote a blog post a few years ago about how I used to build websites just using frames. So, I don't know if you're familiar with just frames, but I didn't really know how to do divs. So, I would just do frames because that's what I understood back then, again, little kid. But it was kind of working. You were dealing with IE 5 or, like, I remember, like, professionally fixing bugs for IE 5.5 or, like, AOL, like, 9, something ridiculous like this.
\n\nSo, building a website just got way easier but also way more complicated, if that makes sense. Like, it's way easier to do most things. For instance, I don't know, like, 20 years ago, you wanted a rounded corner; you would have to create images and kind of overlay them in a weird way. It would break in many cases. Nowadays, you want rounded corners? That's a non-topic. But now you need, like, offline capabilities of your website. And, in a lot of cases, there's really complex features that are expected from users. So, the bar is getting raised to crazy levels.
\n\nSAMI: Yeah, I always wonder about this. Like, when you look at how the internet used to be and how people develop for the internet, and, like you're saying, now it's more complex but easier to do some things. I don't know if as developers we're making things harder or easier for ourselves. Like, if you look at the amount of technology someone needs to know to get started, it grows constantly. To do this, you have to add this framework, and you need to have this library, and maybe even a different language, and then, to even host something now, the amount of technologies you need to know. Do you think we're making things harder for ourselves, or do you think easier?
\n\nMARC: Well, I guess there's always back and forth, like, regarding complexity. So, things will get really, really complex, and then someone will go, "Well, let's stop that and simplify." That's why, like, I'm seeing some people not rejecting React and so on, but going a simpler route like Rails has options like this. There's people using HTMX, which is really simple. So, just going back to something simpler.
\n\nI think a lot of the really complex solutions also come from the fact that now we have massive teams building websites, and you need that complexity to be able to handle the team size. But it's kind of, then you need more people to handle the complexity, and it's just getting crazy. Yeah, honestly, I don't know. I'm seeing a lot of things that feel too complex for...like, the technology feels really complicated to accomplish some things that should be simple or at least feel simple. But, at the same time, there are things that got so simple that it's ridiculous like just accepting payment.
\n\nI remember, like, if you wanted to accept payment on a site, it would be months of work, and now it takes a minute. You just plug in Stripe, and it works. And it's often cheaper than what it used to be. So, it's kind of...or deploying. You mentioned deploying can be really hard. Well, you don't need to have a physical server in your room just eating your place up to have your website, your personal website running. You just push it to Vercel, or Heroku, or whatever, or just a static page on S3. So, this got simpler, but then, yeah, you can get it to be so much more crazy. So, if you host your static website on S3, fairly simple. But then if you try to understand permissions on S3, then, you know, it's over.
\n\nRÉMY: I don't know if it's really in the path of our discussion. I just wanted to ask you, so this is the on tour series, where we...so, usually, the Giant Robots podcast used to be a little bit more American-centric, and this on tour is moving back to the other side of the Atlantic with, again, Europe, West Asia, and Africa. You've been part of a company, Drivy, which expanded from France to neighboring countries in Europe. What could you tell our listeners about how to expand a business internationally?
\n\nMARC: That's a tough question, especially in Europe. Because I know looking from the outside, like, if you're from the U.S. and you look at Europe, it feels like, you know, a uniform continent, but really, it's very different. Like, just payment methods are different. Culture is very different.
\n\nFor instance, when I was working at Back Market in France, one of the branding aspects of Back Market was its humor. Like, we would be making a lot of jokes on the website, and it would work really well in France. Like, people would love the brand. But then you expand to other countries, and they just don't find that funny at all. Like, it's not helping at all, and they're expecting a different tone of voice. So, it's not just, okay, I need to translate my own page; it's I need to internationalize for this market.
\n\nI guess my advice is do it country by country. Sometimes I see companies going like, oh, we opened in 20 different countries, and you go, how even do you do that? And spend some time understanding how people are using your product or, like, a similar product locally because you would be surprised by what you learn. Sometimes there's different capabilities.
\n\nFor instance, when Drivy went to the UK, there's so much more you can learn. There's the government database that you can look up, and it really helps with managing risk. If people are known to steal cars, you can kind of figure it out. I'm simplifying a bit, but you can use this. You don't have that in France because we just don't have this solution. But if you go to Nordic countries, for instance, they have way more electric vehicles, so maybe the product doesn't work as well.
\n\nSo, it's really understanding what's different locally and being willing to invest, to adapt. Because if you go, okay, I'm going to open in the Netherlands but you don't adopt the payment methods that are used in the Netherlands, you might as well not open at all. So, it's either you do it properly and you kind of figure out what properly means for your product, or you postpone, and you do it well later.
\n\nLike, right now, I'm struggling a bit with my app because it's open. So, it's on the App Store, so it's open globally. And it's a SaaS, so it's simpler, but I struggle with language. So, it's in French and English. I spoke both of this language, obviously, French better than English. But I think I'm doing okay with both. But I also built it in Spanish because I speak some Spanish fairly poorly, and I wanted to try to hit a different market like the Mexican market that are doing boxing quite a lot. But the quality doesn't seem there.
\n\nLike, I don't have the specific boxing lingo, so I'm contemplating just rolling it back, like, removing the Spanish language until I get it really well, maybe with a translator dedicated to it that knows boxing in Spanish. Because I work with translators that would translate, but they don't really know that, yeah, like a jab in boxing. In Spanish, they might also say, "Jab." They won't translate it to, like, [inaudible 38:31].
\n\nSAMI: Yeah. At thoughtbot, we have one of our clients they wanted to release their app also internationally. And so, we had also kind of a lot of these problems. We even had to handle...so, in some languages, you go from left to right, right to left. So, that kind of also changed a lot of the way you would design things is mainly for people who are going from left to right. I mean, that's thinking kind of more Europe, U.S.-centric. And then, you could be releasing your app into a different country where they read the other direction.
\n\nSo, yeah, a lot of this stuff is really interesting, especially the culture, like you're saying. Do they find this humor funny? And then, how do they translate things? Which, in my head, I think, could you use AI to do that. Which is a nice segue into, like, the mandatory question about AI, which we can't let you go until we ask you.
\n\nMARC: [laughs]
\n\nSAMI: So, okay, obviously, I'm going to ask you about your thoughts on AI and where you think we're headed. But I've seen something interesting, which I don't know if this is something that resonates with you as well. I've seen a bit of a trend where the more experienced developers or more senior developers I talk to seem to be a bit more calm and less concerned. Whereas I would consider myself as less experienced, and I feel, like, kind of more anxious, more nervous, more jumping on the bandwagon sort of feeling of keeping an eye on it. So, I guess, with your experience, what are your thoughts on AI? Where do you think we are headed?
\n\nMARC: That's a big question, and it feels like it's changing month to month. It feels way more interesting than other trends before. Like, I'm way more excited about the capabilities of AI than, like, NFTs or stuff like this. I'm actively using AI tooling in my app. I was using some AI at Back Market. So, it's interesting. There's a bunch of things you can be doing.
\n\nPersonally, I don't think that it's going to, like, make programming irrelevant, for instance. It will just change a bit how you will build things just like...so, we talked about what changed in the past. For instance, at some point, you would need a team of people moving around physical computers and servers and just hooking them up to be able to have a website. But now, most people would just use a cloud provider. So, all those people either they work for the cloud provider, or they're out of a job. But really what happened is most shifted into something different, and then we focused on something different. Instead of learning how to handle a farm of servers, we learned how to, I don't know, handle more concurrency in our models.
\n\nAnd I think when I look back, I feel like, technically, maybe, I don't know, 70%, 80% of what I learned is now useless. Like, I spent years getting really good at handling Internet Explorer as a web developer. Now it's just gone, so it's just gone forever. And it feels like there's some practice that we're having right now that will be gone forever thanks to AI or because of AI, depending on how you look at it. But then there'll be new things to do. I'm not sure yet what it will be, but it will create new opportunities. There are some things that look a bit scary, like, or creepy. But I'm not worried about jobs or things like this.
\n\nI'm a bit concerned about people learning programming right now because, yeah, there's a lot of hand-holding, and there's a lot of tools that you have to pay to get access to this hand-holding. So, if you're a student right now in school learning programming and your school is giving you some AI assistant, like Copilot or whatever, and this assistant is really good, but suddenly it goes away because you're not paying anymore, or, like, the model change, if you don't know how to code anymore, then it's a problem. Or maybe you're not struggling as much. And you're not digging deep enough, and so you're learning slower. And you're being a bit robbed of the opportunity to learn by the AI. So, it's just giving you the solution.
\n\nBut it's just, like, the way I use it right now, so I don't have an assistant enabled, but I usually have, like, a ChatGPT window open somewhere. It's more like a better Stack Overflow or a more precise Stack Overflow. And that helps me a lot, and that's really convenient. Like, right now, I'm building mostly using Swift and Swift UI, but I'm mainly a Ruby and JavaScript developer. So, I'm struggling a lot and being able to ask really simple questions.
\n\nI had a case just this morning where I asked how to handle loading of images without using the assets folder in Xcode. I just couldn't figure it out, but it's really simple. So, it was able to tell me, like, right away, like, five options on how to do it, and I was able to pick the one that would fit. So, yeah, really interesting, but yeah, I'm not that worried. The only part I would be worried is if people are learning right now and relying way too much on AI.
\n\nRÉMY: Well, at least it's positive for our job. Thank you for making us believe in a bright future, Marc.
\n\nMARC: [laughs]
\n\nRÉMY: All right. Thank you so much, Marc, for joining us. It was a real pleasure. Before we leave, Marc, if you want to be contacted, if people want to get a hold of you, how can you be contacted?
\n\nMARC: There's two ways: either LinkedIn, look up Marc G Gauthier. Like, the middle initial is important because Marc Gauthier is basically John Smith in France. My website, which is marcgg.com. You can find my blog. You can find a way to hire me as a coach or advisor. That's the best way to reach out to me.
\n\nRÉMY: Thank you so much. And thank you, Sami, as well.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have any questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on social media as rhannequin.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
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In this podcast episode of "Giant Robots On Tour," hosts Sami Birnbaum and Rémy Hannequin explore mental health in the age of artificial intelligence with Sara Wilder, a Therapeutic Life Consultant and Licensed Clinical Social Worker. Sami shares his own brief foray into psychotherapy before transitioning to tech, highlighting the relevance of mental health in today's rapidly evolving technological landscape. Sara, whose path to therapy was influenced by her personal struggles and a desire to help others, discusses her unique approach as a Therapeutic Life Consultant, which blends traditional therapy with direct coaching and consulting.
\n\nSara elaborates on her journey and how the COVID-19 pandemic pushed her towards integrating technology into her practice. She transitioned from in-person sessions to virtual consultations, emphasizing the impact of this shift on mental health and brain function. Sara's interest in AI stemmed from her need to scale her business and her desire to use technology to aid her clients. She discusses her experience with AI tools like ChatGPT, both the benefits and challenges, such as generating relatable content and addressing AI "hallucinations." Sara highlights the importance of using AI ethically and maintaining human oversight to ensure the authenticity and accuracy of AI-generated outputs.
\n\nThe conversation also delves into broader concerns about the impact of AI and technology on mental health. Sami and Rémy discuss the addictive nature of technology and its parallels with substance addiction, emphasizing the need for self-imposed boundaries and emotional intelligence. Sara shares insights into how AI can be a valuable tool in therapy, such as using AI for social anxiety role-playing or to generate conversation prompts. The episode concludes with a discussion on the balance between leveraging AI for efficiency and maintaining human connection, stressing the need for ongoing education and ethical considerations in AI development and deployment.
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nSAMI: Yes, and we are back. And this is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, the Giant Robots on Tour series coming to you from Europe, West Asia, and Africa, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Sami Birnbaum.
\n\nRÉMY: And I'm your other host, Rémy Hannequin.
\n\nSAMI: Okay, if you're wondering where Jared is, we finally got rid of him. No, that's a joke, Jared, if you're listening. He was my previous co-host. You can go back to our other podcasts. But we've got Rémy on board today. And you could take a look at our previous podcast, where we introduce the Giant Robots on Tour series, where you'll find out about all the different co-hosts. And you can learn more about Rémy's sourdough bread.
\n\nJoining us today is Sara Wilder, a Therapeutic Life Consultant, Licensed Clinical Social Worker, and Clinical Addictions Specialist.
\n\nOkay, Sara, this is going to sound a little bit strange, but, actually, once upon a time in my own life, I kind of wanted to be you, not exactly you because that would be even more strange.
\n\nSARA: [chuckles]
\n\nSAMI: But before I got into coding and tech, I was interested in psychotherapy. And I started a course and, for different reasons, it didn't work out, and I never pursued that career. But what's really interested us about you is the work and research you're doing around mental health in this new world of AI, artificial intelligence. You have a really interesting talk coming up at the CreativeVerse Conference in North Carolina. And we actually have Fatima from thoughtbot who's going to be presenting at the same conference.
\n\nAnd you're specifically talking about prioritizing mental health in the age of AI. And there is so much we want to ask you about this. But before we do, I always like to go back to the start with my guests. Everyone has a story, and I'm interested in your journey. What led you into the world of therapy?
\n\nSARA: Well, to unpack that, it's, like, probably way too long for this podcast, but in a nutshell, I had no idea what...I did not want to be a therapist when I grew up, so thank you for wanting that more than me. But I landed here, I think, partly just because of, you know, I always wanted to help people. I never really knew what that was going to look like. I thought it maybe was going into nursing or more of the medical side. But really what landed me here and made me stay here and really choose to stay in my profession...because, at one point, I was like, no, I'm not sure I could do this for the rest of my life; this is a lot. But it was really my own suffering.
\n\nI had to take a really hard look at where I came from, what I had gone through, and why I wanted to just, you know, like, help people, but then try to keep changing how I did that. And I'm glad I chose to stay put in this kind of therapeutic, you know, life. Therapeutic life consultant is a term that I kind of formulated myself because I'm not quite a traditional therapist anymore. I'm not sitting in an office with the couch. We talk a lot about our relationship with our mothers.
\n\nBut I have more of a personality that's direct and kind of coaching. And I want to go more into consulting and help people understand how to do their own healing work using my clinical background of being in diagnostics in different hospital settings, stuff like that. And because I had to do my own work, and I had to understand how to make sense of how my pain and my suffering was holding me back, and how I could turn that really into something that could help me thrive.
\n\nSAMI: Yeah, I think that's really powerful. I think that's a really powerful place to be able to come from, you know, to be able to kind of take your own challenges and the things that you've struggled with. And it's kind of like almost sometimes you have...the best teachers are the people who've gone through it themselves. And I can imagine that's been quite a journey. If only we had a longer podcast, right?
\n\nSARA: [chuckles]
\n\nSAMI: We could go into all our journeys. But it's super interesting. And, specifically, what has then kind of propelled you more towards looking into the tech aspect of it, right? So, I'm assuming...well, AI, at least, is relatively recent. And so, I'm assuming when you started out, it was more, like you're saying, a therapeutic setting, a life coaching setting, and now there's this sort of other angle, which is kind of coming into it. So, how did you end up getting involved or interested in the tech or the AI side?
\n\nSARA: I am an entrepreneur myself. When we go into what we call private practice, there is an element of business that most of us don't know. They don't really teach you business in social work school, and I kind of had to figure it out. But what really pushed me off that ledge to just figure it out and fly was COVID. And I, you know, went from a traditional office with the couch to being virtual. And it was going to be temporary, but I made the decision, and it was quite a difficult decision, given what I had already experienced in helping people through that transition, you know, going from traditional office spaces to at-home working.
\n\nBut it was, yeah, I really had to understand the impact of technology on my practice, let alone my life. Working from home is a very different lifestyle when it comes to understanding what mental health means. You know, working from home and brain health is a big focus of, you know, what I discuss with my clients and educate them on. But more recently, and this is kind of how I got into the conference, when I started realizing that a lot of my own mental health was...I needed an outlet of creativity of something to be able to help me cope. I realized my business, and my content, and my passion could be that. So, I had to figure out how to scale myself.
\n\nAnd I'm still learning AI. I have an assistant, and she helps me. I have to use her to help me use ChatGPT because it is a beast if you don't know not only just learning the program but learning how to use it and also for it to really be authentic and not necessarily something that, you know, the bot just develops content for you, and you don't make it your own. So, it's a big old brain twister. And the concept of perception is very delicate, let alone with AI. But when you bring it into the tech world, it's a completely different type of language.
\n\nRÉMY: Since you started working with AI, you mentioned ChatGPT, have you noticed answers or generated content that is either incredibly useful and accurate, and, on the other side, other content that might be, I won't say disturbing, but at least not exactly what you would expect from a human?
\n\nSARA: Yeah, absolutely. It kind of weirds me out to, like...because I use it to kind of help my creative flow, like, if I have a blog post that I need to write. And it's very important for me to, you know, bring myself into my writing. So, when I started with ChatGPT, and it brings up something, and I'm like, who ever says that? Like, no one says that. Like, that's completely maybe like, you know, just it's a little bit unrelatable and a little stiff, I guess, is the best word I can use.
\n\nAnd then, I go through the processing of like, okay, let me figure out how I would write this. I feel like it does help me. It does prolong the process a little bit more. But I have also, yeah, so just kind of relatability factor, for me, is the first thing that sticks out.
\n\nBut the other thing that I've learned a little bit more about listening to, you know, other podcasts and just trying to educate myself, which is a funny term because we use this, you know, in my field of mental health all the time, is it comes up with hallucination. So, it will fill in gaps of, you know, whether it be data, or in a statistic, or whether it's just a concept that it kind of makes up to kind of fill and have fillers in what it produces, which I'm still new to understanding what that really means. Like, yeah, it definitely can be some...and it needs to be something that we fact-check as well since it's just pulling from the general abyss of the internet, and that's not always the most accurate, you know, place of reference in general.
\n\nSAMI: Yeah, I can vouch for the abyss of the internet not always being the best place to find yourself [laughs]. There's some rabbit holes we've probably all been down. But it's so interesting because I find that the world has woken up to the impact that social media has had on everyone's mental health. And it almost feels like that was our first experiment with how tech can really impact us as a society and as individuals. And so, we've kind of seen that experiment and how that's played out, and I would argue we've probably failed. We've probably had this social media wave. And whether you'd look at it from a government perspective or a healthcare perspective, I don't actually think we've handled it well.
\n\nAnd it's almost, like, now we're on the cusp of our second experiment, right? This is now, okay, no longer social media. I mean, that is still relevant but put that to the side for a second. And you've got AI coming out with all these chatbots, generative AI, whether that's across images, text, and the impact that is going to have. So, I feel like the space that you're in is huge. I think you spoke before we started recording about, like, there's a mental health crisis. What do you see, or what concerns do you have given what we've seen with social media, the impact AI can have on our mental health?
\n\nSARA: You know, there's a lot of different points here, but I think I'll just go with the first thing that comes to my mind is the limits. There are not many limits, let alone...so, tech in itself, but just in our own natural human world, as individuals, we have to learn what boundaries are. We have to learn self-imposed limitations or else someone else is going to impose them on us, and that just doesn't feel as good when someone puts their own limitations on our reality.
\n\nSo, when we bring this into tech,...and I also include...since my background is in addictions, I started realizing that correlation between, like, technology, the boom of access to information is really...it's a pleasure concept, is that when we have a thought and we can just go get information about the answer and it's immediate, that immediate gratification teaches the brain like, oh, I can do this. I can handle this myself. We're not looking at the by-product of that anymore. And I think because we're dealing with it, we can't really...we're so in it now. We can't see that like, oh, this could potentially be a problem, because it is.
\n\nWe have become an immediate access world. I mean, even in rural...like, kids in Africa have a TikTok dancing. And they don't have running water in their communities, but they have a cell phone where they can get support. Like, I'm glad they can because that's great access. But they're not necessarily realizing the addictive aspect of what just being interconnected this way has on the brain, let alone the foundational understanding of what boundaries, and self-discipline, or just mental discipline would look like.
\n\nSo, then when you bring this, I think, into the, you know, the AI world, we're already on a shaky ground of abuse of information and having too much information and not knowing how to process it. And I think that's probably been...I know an issue, for me, is that when I have too much information, I can't necessarily ask questions very well because I'm like, what is the question? Like, I know my brain is oversaturated, essentially, with information as well as potentially chemicals at this point because I'm just working so fast, so fast, so fast.
\n\nAnd I'm in my mid-thirties at this point. So, a teenager who's already dealing with impulse control issues because they're naturally developing, that gets really complicated very quickly. And that's what, in turn, we call attention deficit disorder, anxiety, autism spectrum. That's a little bit more complicated, but a lot of that intersects to be like, well, what are we dealing with? We're dealing with immediate gratification and a sensory processing issue because we're looking at screens, and our brains don't know how to adapt to that let alone regulate that.
\n\nSAMI: That makes so much sense. I guess it's because it's kind of a world that we all inhabit, right? As much as we talk about this and sometimes we like to think of the other like we're talking about someone else, I've found this in my own life as well. I'm addicted to my phone in ways, and I'm also seeking that immediate gratification. And it's almost, like you said, that dopamine hit, right? If there's a piece of information I want or there's a video that I want to see, it's there, and it's immediate.
\n\nAnd when you say these things, I guess it's kind of...it's a bit scary. And then, I wonder, on a more macro level, why, as a society, do we do this to ourselves? I don't expect anyone on this podcast [chuckles] to have the answer, right? But I'm always interested, like, if we're aware of this and we're cognizant of what's going on, and, Rémy, feel free to jump in on this as well, like, as a society, why are we doing this to ourselves?
\n\nSARA: Now, by no means is this...like, this is just my answer, and I don't have the answer for everything. But I've had...sometimes as a therapist, you have to fill space and come up with an answer. So, my hypothesis is that it's natural human behavior. I think our brains...we are, you know, survival of the fittest. That's natural. Like, at the end of the day, we're going to fight for our life. And life really comes down, in my perspective, it comes down to, like, we have suffering, and we have pleasure.
\n\nHowever, we've learned now that as an evolving, you know, species, that we are one of the only species that can build executive functioning skills in our brains and have different parts of that that we have to kind of understand the baseline. Survival has gotten us so far, and we've made a lot of great headway with that. But pleasure is not sustainable. Pleasure is a beautiful concept to have in life. But when we talk about what's the goal of life, we want to be happy. Happy and pleasure are actually two very different things to the brain. And a lot of it is just a matter of space being used.
\n\nPleasure and dopamine is actually a very small part of the brain, whereas happiness expands and is able to circulate chemicals, and synapses, and energy throughout the rest of the brain but that it has to be a conscious choice. And I think a lot of people don't realize, yeah, you're making choices. I'm not saying, like, no one doesn't have, you know, some degree of free will, but if you're dealing with any degree of stress, emotions, cognitive bias in general, you're not making an actual, like, expansive choice about what options you have to expand your consciousness and your brain capacity.
\n\nRÉMY: I like the way that today we realized that a lot of things related to this is chemicals that we all have, which remove a little bit the guilt when you are addicted, you know, because it can happen to anyone. But also, it's a reminder that it can happen to anyone. So, nobody is immune to that because that's how we're built. And I really like this approach. It's just natural, which means it's okay to feel it. But it's also dangerous to anyone, so anyone should address it. And, again, if you feel like you're losing it and losing to addiction, it feels good to just know that everybody is entitled to, unfortunately, to feel that at some point in their life.
\n\nSARA: I love that you mentioned that, and that's absolutely one of my goals is to break down the stigma of...when I use the word addiction...and I don't do small talk that well because I'm just like, let's talk about some real things here. This is what's going on. And it's scary to think of, like, addiction and what that means because of how we've seen it. And I don't know what it looks like particularly in the countries that you're from...a little bit. But I know, here in America, it's messy. It's hurtful. It's a lot of suffering.
\n\nIt doesn't make us feel good to even think about that, which is why I try to teach my clients how to manage and regulate that because it does not discriminate. It's your brain. It's doing its natural thing and how you have to train and just learn how to train that. And it can get better, for sure. But yeah, I really try to break through, like, it's not something that we need to keep being scared about because that is actually what gives it its power. It gives that restrictiveness and that isolation and breaks that connection from each other. And that's ultimately what brings us out of an active addictive cycle is connection.
\n\nSAMI: Yeah, it's really interesting because technology it almost masks that by making you feel really connected. Like, I'm connected to all these people and all these things, but I don't feel that connection. And that really resonates with me when you talk about the difference between pleasure and happiness.
\n\nSo, I hope my parents don't listen to this. But when I was in university, I'm pretty sure I had a gaming addiction. So, I used to live in the loft in my house. I don't know what you'd call it in America. Maybe it's called the attic. I was at the top floor. So, essentially, I had...oh, back then, it would have been a PS3, and I was seriously addicted to Call of Duty, playing online.
\n\nAnd I remember doing just all-nighters, like, really often. I remember it got to a point where I would almost have to reset my whole sleep cycle because I ended up in a situation where I'd be awake in the night kind of always playing all night because I couldn't put the game down, and then sleeping during the day. And to get myself back into a normal rhythm, I'd have to force myself to stay awake for 24 hours. And I would even consider myself someone who doesn't have an addictive personality.
\n\nBut when you were saying about the difference between pleasure and happiness, like, it was definitely hitting that dopamine, and it was pleasurable, but I didn't feel happy. Like, once I stopped, then there was all those feelings that Rémy described, which is, oh no, what have I done? I've wasted so much time and all that guilt that comes with it. So, it's really interesting.
\n\nAnd I guess it's also a bit like a codependency, which is something I've seen that you've touched on in your work as well, which I understand to be an unhealthy reliance on a human relationship. But I'm guessing we're probably seeing more of that and unhealthy reliance on tech software products and AI. Is that something you're seeing in your therapeutic work as well?
\n\nSARA: Oh, absolutely. Codependency it's a big topic to unpack. And I'll say it's a balance. We're never going to not be codependent on something because it literally...we're supposed to work together. We need each other to survive and to grow. But the unhealthy parts of it is, I think, because...I'll just speak from my own experience. I was never taught what emotional intelligence was when I was a kid. I grew up in a very middle-class, non-diverse part of the United States, where I didn't understand the foundational, like, what are boundaries? What are emotions? They try to teach you.
\n\nAnd I think that's been something that is going to take people a while to understand. But there is an unhealthy part of it because it's just mixed with...and confuse people of what do we actually need to need other people for. And it naturally sends us...I think this is primarily where relationships become a point of the discussion is relationships are necessary. But they're less successful if you don't have a relationship with yourself as a foundation because that's naturally going to help you realize that you don't need this one person. And you don't attach to a person out of necessity and out of survival or else, yeah, you're going to lose a huge aspect of your identity because you didn't have much of one to begin with.
\n\nAnd so, that's ultimately what I teach and educate people on when I work with them in session is just what codependency really is. We're going to be codependent on something. I'd rather you be aware of it. Denial is just dangerous in general. But being aware of how these things show up, you have a better of a choice now. And free will comes back to really in your control without less consequence over time or less negative consequence over time. [inaudible 20:44] my brother, though, Rémy. Call of Duty...[inaudible 20:48] the attic, it was the basement, but yeah. It doesn't discriminate against gender, but for men...he's also in the military. So, it was a very good outlet for him before he went, you know, active duty or [inaudible 21:02] and just self-expression. You don't have to talk about things.
\n\nI don't think this discriminates against country by any means, but I know for America, I try to stay in my lane with just speaking about Americans, is that men have been put in a very tough position when it comes to mental health because society reinforces: keep it together; be the provider; just deal with it, and painted this picture of, like, you don't have and can't express emotions. And then, we wonder why guns are an issue. We wonder why drinking and alcoholism is an issue and, you know, in the male population.
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\n\nSAMI: So, there's a lot of concerns. There's a lot of worries, and there's, I guess, negativity around tech and AI. Is there any silver lining? You know, some things we're getting from tech as we already know it, perhaps social media but also AI. Is there anything that we can look at and be like, actually, that will enhance our mental health, improve our society? Are there any positive things that you see coming from it?
\n\nSARA: I love that question because it is a heavy conversation. I tell people, if you're considering therapy, like, you got to consider it's a full-time job to intentionally lean into the heaviness of the reality that we live in. There's a lot going on right now. I kind of surprise myself every day as to why I do have some degree of hope. But I think that's also just because I see people recover every day. I am grateful for that because not everyone gets that experience.
\n\nIf you're working more of a tech job and you're looking more at coding, and data, and screens all day, you don't see change from the human perspective. And if anything, if you go outside these days, it's just tense. We're extremely inflamed. I don't care what country you live in. We're all experiencing the sensory, like, I see it as...I was not good at chemistry, but one's like, when you heat up molecules and they move really fast, like, that's combustion. And it's about to be summer, so it's about to even be literally hotter. I'm not going to say it's going to get worse.
\n\nBut I say that to say I do believe there is a degree of hope because not only do I see it, but I also see...I'm connected to communities who are doing work from what I kind of...is stealth and, like, covert. You're not really going to see goodness and kindness in the abundance of negativity and darkness, but it is there. And I also like to say that I educate people every day where it changes...maybe not everyone's going to change in that regard. But as an individual in a network and a system, if one person's changed, the system automatically changes.
\n\nAnd little by little, over time, I think the pendulum will swing back in a place where it's like, oh yeah, no, it really is happening. And I also kind of see it in this mental health crisis. Change comes out of crisis. It's unfortunate, but if we don't have a big enough reason to look at something, then we tend not to fix it, you know, be proactive. I mean, one of my goals is to get from this reactive place into a proactive and preemptive, you know, wellness space for people, but that also does have to be choice.
\n\nBut I think it really has to start with people understanding and committing to themselves and taking care of themselves, which is why I also am hopeful is because that's a lot easier than trying to get other people to change for you. If you can commit and commit to yourself, and taking care of yourself, and prioritizing you being self-focused, not necessarily selfish because a lot of that gets a bad rap of like, oh, I'm being selfish. We do it a lot out of defense, which is why I think it's not that effective.
\n\nAnd so, like, oh, I'm just going to be selfish. I'm going to do what's best for me. You're also locking...you're doing that out of reaction typically because you're not realizing like, oh, I feel hurt because this person didn't prioritize me, so now I'm not going to prioritize them. I'm going to prioritize me. And what I mean intention and recovery comes down to like, when people hurt you, you still have to choose not to hurt them and not pull away. And so, I think if we can all understand...and it's a tough concept to stay in your lane. It really is. But if we can all try to stay in our lane and focus on taking care of ourselves, that is what I believe is going to make the most impact.
\n\nSAMI: And do you feel AI could help with that? Could we use AI? I'm interested how, like, specifically with regards to the tech, could that be part of this?
\n\nSARA: Absolutely. I think there's some foundational knowledge that needs to be done and work that needs to be done in each individual before AI can just kind of come in without creating, like, more intense dependency on it. But I know there are agencies here locally. I can't remember the name of...I was trying to remember this earlier. I met them at a networking event recently, but an agency who uses AI to help with social anxiety and role-playing when it comes to situational circumstances and exposure.
\n\nSo, me as a therapist, I love doing exposure. I, for the most part, am an exposure exercise for some people is, you know, we open up and talk about, like, these things that people don't feel safe to talk about with their general networks. But AI, I've started kind of dabbling in, you know, I have some clients who deal with, you know, some, like, delusional disorders, schizoaffective disorder, where they didn't grow up in families where any of the, like, really important foundational concepts were discussed, or they were shut down. So, they're naturally trained to just stay in their head. And, in turn, you build a distrust with all the thoughts you have in your brain.
\n\nAnd I encourage my clients to have conversations with ChatGPT just to be like, "Hey, what's up? What's going on?" And telling it what it is that they need, to just normalize the communication of being like, okay, I'm a little nervous to go on a date. I don't know what to say. Can you help me with some ideas of what questions to ask to get to know someone? That, I think, is a lot less intimidating sometimes talking with me because my energy is easily transferable. And that can scare some people because I can get quite excited about, like, "Yo, you did that. That's great." And they're like, "Whoa, that's a lot."
\n\nSAMI: I'm loving your vibes.
\n\nSARA: Oh [laughs].
\n\nSAMI: It's good energy. I'm enjoying it.
\n\nSARA: Well, thank you. But I have a couple of clients that...talk about an investment, and I've told them this, and I was like, "I am going to pour into you." Because they just never had certain experiences at the right time to build a degree of confidence that would get them to the next place in life, where they realized like, oh, I can do that. Failure is not that bad, and it's different for everyone. But I do think AI can help in that regard.
\n\nIt also can become a little bit challenging. I had a discussion on this with a colleague of mine who works in cybersecurity, and we were talking about AI and the intersection in relationships and the impact on intimacy in relationships, mostly with heterosexual relationships. But there, yeah, it can go a very different direction than hopeful. And it can cause harm or conflict in some relationships because it's easier to talk to a very structured computer bot than it is to a woman per se. But I think it can help as well to build a foundation for people to get to those points where you can be assertive and reflective in your experiences, build emotional intelligence over time to help relationships.
\n\nRÉMY: At thoughtbot, we have worked on projects that implement AI, and we are becoming more familiar with training models. One thing that concerns us is doing this in an ethical and safe way. What tips would you have for people who are actually creating models and driving change in this space?
\n\nSARA: I'd say the first thing that comes to my mind, though, and this is kind of going to go into my talk during the conference, how do you know you're connected with your own reality? I think that's the hardest part about the tech world is like, it's the boundary. Your brain does not know the difference between a computer screen and your reality. The biggest difference is your senses. And that's kind of been the...it's what's caused a lot of the problem with tech is that, you know, here we're having this conversation. I can see y'all. I can generally take into account what your environment is like, but I can't experience it the same way as if I was not sitting in the room with you.
\n\nAnd I think that is when you teach people how to activate their own realities, you know, teach them about their body and the somatic work, especially with trauma. When trauma is involved, is you have to know how to activate the here and now and train your brain to know what your reality is or else you're going to get lost in the sauce of, like, everyone else's reality, let alone opinions, but especially in the virtual world.
\n\nSo, being able to know your sensory activation, how mindfulness is, that's a huge term, honestly. We could unpack that for 30 minutes itself. But that sensory activation is a huge part of mindfulness is being able to experience a thought that can trigger something of a reaction and being able to effectively detach from it without judgment, you know, it's training. It takes a lot of training, but senses are huge, and being able to, I think, ethically venture into that world of, you know, using the virtual space, using AI to train and be effective.
\n\nSAMI: Yeah, I want to pick up on something you said before because it kind of scared me [laughs], which I don't mind [laughs] saying that to you, right? Because I've got this fear that probably other people have also considered as well is people say about AI taking jobs. So, as a coder, we know AI is becoming more proficient at coding. Maybe other designers, other people in the tech world have this fear as well so much so I actually mentioned this in a previous podcast.
\n\nI taught myself some, like, real physical skills because I thought when AI takes my job completely, well, at least I'll be able to do something. I actually taught myself to silicone a bathroom. And if you know, you have those silicone beads that kind of go around a bathroom, so the water doesn't get in between the grating and the tiles. So, I remember when I was learning it, thinking, well, if AI does take our jobs, at least I'll be able to do this. But that's where my brain goes sometimes.
\n\nAnd then, when you were mentioning about using it in a therapeutic setting, like, oh, well, it can actually be helpful to chat to an AI bot about certain scenarios that you might be trying to work through in therapy. So, I guess the question is twofold. Number one, do you see AI having a big impact in a therapeutic setting and coming in and almost disrupting that industry? And also, what tips do you have for the majority of people who are now concerned that what is life going to look like, and what is it going to be? And will we all have jobs?
\n\nSARA: I think what's important is to understand what happens to the individual when fear is at play before we can even get to the bigger question of like, will AI take our jobs? But I'll start from the end. There will be some jobs that are taken by AI. But what you're talking about Rémy is, yes, there is a huge power to know how you can connect with your own life and AI. Even if you have a job that is in tech and can be overrun by AI, you still have value as a human being. However, you're not going to feel that way, one, if you have a lot of fear because we have to understand why you can't connect with that.
\n\nBut because value is an invariant, to value something, you have to be quite intentional with training your brain to understand value, and you can do that if you know what fear does to your brain, and it's...quite simply, we've all heard it. It's the stress response: fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. So, when you're having a perceived threat, it doesn't mean...external is not the only threat. We threaten ourselves all the time with our own thought process based off of the experiences that we've had and trigger our own fear.
\n\nAnd your brain essentially is like, hold up, no, we're not going any further. There's a risk here. We're going to stop you. So, this is where a lot of people, like, have those moments. I could stare at a wall for, like, 10 minutes, but it's actually, like, almost two hours if I'm stressed out to the point...because I'm processing too much information, but it's also triggering a stress response for my brain. And we just get saturated and stuck in that moment. So, being able to know, okay, this is happening, then we can actually come back online.
\n\nSo, I use the brain as a computer metaphor quite often. And when we know that we're in that fight or flight response mode, we can in turn engage so that...I actually have an acronym for fear that I'm going to be debuting at this conference. I'll just go ahead and debut it for y'all, a little sneak peek since you guys may or may not be able to be there. So, that fear is...we usually as an acronym, if you've ever heard this, is F everything and run.
\n\nAnd I'm going to define it as the F would be the fight response, fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. So, if you know that's going on, you can address it. The E would be engage. So, engage with your present moment, and that's where your body is, the one thing that tends to be in that present moment. And then, the A is accept. A lot of times we have to accept that we're maybe stuck. We may be at a problem. We may need to take a break. Accepting the things that we can't change in that moment is going to make a big difference on how we come back online on our brains and be able to understand, like, AI is a threat, but it's not going to take over everything, right? And then, the R is redirect. So, redirect to something that is going to change your perception of what the original trigger was.
\n\nAnd so, I think if people can understand how they work and how the brain is actually self-protecting, it's very, like, it's like, whoa, we're not going to let you do something completely destructive. But it cannot distinguish the severity of the threat, let alone can it not...actually, there's a lot of people who've trained their brain to not experience fear. Fear is what is supposed to keep us safe. So, it is just perceiving like, hey, AI could take our jobs, but it's also not giving you the context that you brought up, Rémy, about it's not going to take everything from us. It's actually supposed to be here to help us in [inaudible 36:23]. And it's also dependent on us.
\n\nSo, if we're creating fear in the AI, then yeah, it's going to learn that, and it, could, I don't know, I can't tell the future in that regard. But we have plenty of things that don't have to be tech-related that AI won't take from us. And a lot of that is the natural world if we can keep it alive and value it enough.
\n\nRÉMY: I have one question for you. It might not be very in sync with the train of thought we're having because it's more related to the beginning of the episode. But you mentioned sometimes rebuilding confidence with people and building confidence and building the ability to trust yourself and to make your own good decisions. It feels like, to some extent, it can be rebuilding yourself. How do you deal with such a big action, such a big project? I mean, it's something that could take life to do so.
\n\nSARA: That's a great question. And sometimes it will take people's lives. I don't handle the whole rest of their life. I tell people like, "I'm going to give you some foundational things." And I do a lot of training. I'm very direct, which is why I have that therapeutic life consultant of like, I'm going to take my vast amount of experience, things that people are probably not going to experience and help them build a security in themselves and, over time, prepare them for when they deviate from that.
\n\nI tell people, like, especially if you have loved ones still living, depression is never going to just leave. The concept...there's no cure. It's being able to be prepared for when things happen in life versus feel completely unprepared. I just came out of a season of grief of, you know, I walked away from a relationship, as well as then trying to still maintain my business, still trying to maintain my clients and those relationships, let alone the relationship with myself, and then put my cat down, you know, like, you know, he was a child. I had him for 14 years. So, like, life is going to continuously happen. So, I'm not trying to figure it all out, but I'm trying to get people back to a point where they can understand how to find security for themselves.
\n\nSince mental health has been such a taboo topic for a long time, there is quite a bit of backlog, and that's what we're seeing. I don't know what it looks like in y'alls countries, but here in America, there is this rush of people. I need a therapist. I need to go to therapy. And we're at a shortage. Therapists can't necessarily help all, like, at once. And we also have to maintain our own mental health, or we're not going to be very helpful to people.
\n\nBut really, it comes down to how you build that security with yourself and know and not anticipate, but be prepared for when there's something else that happens that disturbs your own peace. Because if you have an understanding of what peace looks like for you, and you can't necessarily control it, but you can influence it, and facilitate it in your life, then you have a stronger foundation to be able to endure, you know, potential loss of a loved one, hopefully, no time soon for anyone here, or out, or listening, but it's just the reality.
\n\nAnd that's part of, you know, my story of, I experienced a lot of loss from a young age, and it worked against me for a long time because I had no idea how to process and regulate energy and emotion in my body. And so, what it looked like was me holding on to repressing anger, not having a relationship with the natural emotions that we can't get rid of. You can't get rid of emotions. I wish I could just, you know, vomit them out and just be done with it and be like, okay, cool. We can all be stable. That's just not...that's not going to happen. I think that also is what makes us, you know, a great species and building, you know, great things in this world is emotion.
\n\nTech was built off of passion and emotion. Did it cause some disarray and probably hurt some people in the process? Yeah. But I think we can reduce that from happening if people understand emotional intelligence and not just work, work, work, work, work. It's a new age coming to that. And I've, hopefully, been working on myself enough to be able to sustain helping people understand and shifting over to that new type of perspective of we can't do things the way that we've been doing them. We just can't. It's not sustainable. The human species will suffer from it and the earth will as well.
\n\nSAMI: Yeah, thank you so much, and just for bringing that level of transparency and honesty. It resonates with myself, and I'm sure it will help so many other people who are listening. We could talk to you for hours. I mean, there is so much. And some things we just did not have time to get into. But thank you so much for the time that you've given us. And it's been really insightful to look at AI and tech that we work with as consultants at thoughtbot on a daily basis from this perspective and look at it from this angle. If people want to get a hold of you, where would be the best place?
\n\nSARA: Finding my website is a big thing. That's just, you know, kind of the portal. So, that's sarawilderlcsw.com. Sara with an out an H. And then, also, venturing into this tech world, I have an app interface now that I have put together to kind of be a centerpiece for mental health resources, not only just, like, hotlines. That information is on my website as well.
\n\nBut if you want to start doing your own work little by little, you know, having a centralized spot as well as not too much information. There's plenty of stuff you can Google about mental health. But this is vetted by me and organized to a point where they can, you know, one worksheet can make a difference, where you're just reflecting and taking, you know, 10-15 minutes to read through it and see how you can apply it in your life. It's called Power in Perspective.
\n\nSAMI: That's great. Definitely, I recommend go and check it out and check out Sara on her website. And if you can get down to that conference, that is, again, North Carolina called CreativeVerse, and you'll have the opportunity to hear Sara in person as well as Fatima from thoughtbot who's also presenting.
\n\nIf you learned nothing else from today, then just remember: fear has an acronym for F everything and run. I guess that's my big takeaway. You also got a chance to hear about my gaming addiction. No one tell my parents.
\n\nAnd you can find notes and a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. I always leave you the same challenge, and that challenge is to subscribe. We've got some great guests lined up, and you'll hear about it first if you subscribe. And feel free to leave any comments on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. We do check them all, and they're really helpful.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Check her out at mandymoore.tech. Thanks for listening. See ya.
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Hosts Will Larry and Chad Pytel interview Brock Dubbels, Principal UX and AI Researcher at CareTrainer.ai. Brock discusses how CareTrainer.ai leverages AI to address the current care crisis in elderly populations. He highlights the growing demographic of individuals over 70 and the significant shortage of caregivers, exacerbated by COVID-19. CareTrainer.ai aims to alleviate this by automating routine tasks, allowing caregivers to focus on building meaningful relationships and providing personalized, compassionate care. The platform utilizes AI to manage tasks such as documentation, communication, and monitoring, which helps caregivers spend more time engaging with patients, ultimately enhancing the quality of care and reducing caregiver burnout.
\n\nBrock elaborates on the specific tasks that CareTrainer.ai automates, using an example from his own experience. He explains how AI can transform transactional interactions into conversational ones, fostering trust and authenticity between caregivers and patients. By automating repetitive tasks, caregivers are freed to engage more deeply with patients, encouraging them to participate in their own care. This not only improves patient outcomes but also increases job satisfaction and retention among caregivers. Brock mentions the alarming attrition rates in caregiving jobs and how CareTrainer.ai’s approach can help mitigate this by creating more rewarding and relational caregiving roles.
\n\nAdditionally, Brock discusses the apprenticeship model CareTrainer.ai employs to train caregivers. This model allows new caregivers to learn on the job with AI assistance, accelerating their training and integrating them more quickly into the workforce. He emphasizes the importance of designing AI tools that are user-friendly and enhance the caregiving experience rather than replace human interaction, and by focusing on customer obsession and continuously iterating based on feedback, CareTrainer.ai aims to create AI solutions that are not only effective but also enrich the entire caregiving profession.
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry.
\n\nCHAD: And I'm your other host, Chad Pytel. And with us today is Brock Dubbels, Principal UX and AI Researcher at CareTrainer.ai, which is transforming health care and caregiving with a human-first approach to artificial intelligence. Brock, thank you for joining us.
\n\nBROCK: Hey, thanks for having me, guys. I'm excited to talk about this.
\n\nCHAD: Brock, let's get started with just diving into what CareTrainer.ai actually does. You know, so many businesses today are getting started with or incorporating artificial intelligence into their product offerings. And I know that it's been something that you've been working on for a long time. So, what is CareTrainer?
\n\nBROCK: Well, CareTrainer is an opportunity in the midst of a crisis. So, right now, we have what's called a care crisis for the elderly populations. If you were to look at the age of the North American population and look at it over the next 10 years, about 65% of our population will be over the age of 70. And right now, we are understaffed in caregiving by almost 20%. Caregivers, especially after COVID, are leaving at about a 40% clip. And enrollment in these care programs is down 9%, but yet that older population is growing.
\n\nAnd in the midst of this, we've just recently had an executive order called the Older Americans Act, which states that we actually have to reduce the ratio of caregivers to patients, and we need to give more humane interaction to the patients in these facilities, in homes and help them to retain their dignity. Many of them lose their identity to diagnosis, and they're often referred to as the tasks associated with them.
\n\nAnd what CareTrainer attempts to do is take many of the tasks out of the hands of the caregivers so that they can focus on what they're good at, which is building relationships, learning and understanding, acting with curiosity and compassion, and demonstrating expert knowledge in the service to caring for patients, either in homes, facilities or even post-acute care.
\n\nWILL: You mentioned your hope is to take some of the tasks away from the caregivers. Can you go a little bit deeper into that? What tasks are you referring to?
\n\nBROCK: Let's think about an example. My mom was a public health nurse, and she worked in child maternal health. And these were oftentimes reluctant counseling sessions between she and a young mother or a potential mother. And if she were sitting there with a clipboard or behind a computer screen and looking at the screen, or the clipboard, and doing the interview with questions, she would probably not get a very good interview because she's not making a relationship. It's not conversational; it's transactional.
\n\nAnd when we have these transactional relationships, oftentimes, we're not building trust. We're not expressing authenticity. We're not building relationships. It's not conversational. And we don't get to know the person, and they don't trust us. So, when we have these transactional relationships, we don't actually build the loyalty or the motivation. And when we can free people of the tasks associated with the people that they care for by automating those tasks, we can free them up to build relationships, to build trust, and, in many cases, become more playful, expose their own vulnerability, their own past, their own history, and, hopefully, help these patients feel a little bit more of their worth.
\n\nMany of these people worked meaningful lives as school teachers, working at the fire department, working at the hardware store. And they had a lot of friends, and they did a lot for their community. And now they're in a place where maybe there's somebody taking care of them that doesn't know anything about them, and they just become a person in a chair that, you know, needs to be fed at noon. And I think that's very sad.
\n\nSo, what we help to do is generate the conversations people like to have, learn the stories. But more importantly, we do what's called restorative care, which is, when we have a patient who becomes much more invested in their own self-care, the caregiver can actually be more autonomous. So, let's say it's an elderly person, and, in the past, they wouldn't dress themselves. But because they've been able to build trust in a relationship, they're actually putting on their own blouse and slacks now. For example, a certified nursing assistant or a home health aide can actually make the bed while they're up dressing because the home health aide or certified nursing assistant is not dressing them or is not putting the toothpaste on the toothbrush.
\n\nSo, what we're doing is we're saying, "Let's get you involved in helping with restorative care." And this also increases retention amongst the caregivers. One of the things that I learned in doing an ethnography of a five-state regional healthcare system was that these caregivers there was an attrition rate of about 45% of these workers within the first 30 days of work. So, it's a huge expense for the facility, that attrition rate.
\n\nOne of the reasons why they said they were leaving is because they felt like they weren't building any relationships with the people that they were caring for, and it was more like a task than it was a care or a relationship. And, in fact, in many cases, they described it as maid service with bedpans for grumpy people [chuckles]. And many of them said, "I know there's somebody nice down there, but I think that they've just become a little bit hesitant to engage because of the huge number of people that come through this job, and the lack of continuity, the lack of relationship, the lack of understanding that comes from building a relationship and getting to know each other."
\n\nAnd when we're talking about taking the tasks away, we're helping with communication. We're actually helping with diagnosis and charting. We're helping with keeping the care plan updated and having more data for the care plan so that nurse practitioners and MDs can have a much more robust set of data to make decisions upon when they meet with this patient. And this actually reduces the cost for the care facilities because there's less catastrophic care in the form of emergency rooms, prescriptions, assisted care, as well as they actually retain their help. The caregivers stay there because it's a good quality of life.
\n\nAnd when those other costs go down, some of the institutions that I work for actually put that money back into more patient care, hiring more people to have more meaningful, humane interactions. And that's what I mean about taking the tasks off of the caregiver so that they can have the conversations and the relational interactions, rather than the transactional interactions.
\n\nCHAD: One thing I've heard from past guests and clients that we've had in this space, too, is, to speak more to the problem, the lack of staff and the decline in the quality of care and feeling like it's very impersonal causes families to take on that burden or family members to take on that burden, but they're not necessarily equipped to do it. And it sort of causes this downward spiral of stress and quality of care that impacts much bigger than just the individual person who needs the care. It often impacts entire families.
\n\nBROCK: Oh yeah. Currently, they're estimating that family, friends, and communities are providing between $90 and $260,000 worth of care per person per year. And this is leading to, you know, major financial investments that many of these people don't have. It leads to negative health outcomes. So, in a lot of ways, what I just described is providing caregiver respite, and that is providing time for a caregiver to actually engage with a person that they're caring for, teaching them communication skills.
\n\nAnd one of the big things here is many of these institutions and families are having a hard time finding caregivers. Part of that is because we're using old systems of education in new days that require new approaches to the problem. And the key thing that CareTrainer does is it provides a guided apprenticeship, which means that you can earn while you learn. And what I mean by that is, rather than sitting in a chair in front of a screen doing computer-based training off of a modified PowerPoint with multiple-choice tests, you can actually be in the context of care and earning while you learn rather than learning to earn.
\n\nCHAD: Well, at thoughtbot, we're a big believer in apprenticeships as a really solid way of learning quickly from an experienced mentor in a structured way. I was excited to hear about the apprenticeship model that you have.
\n\nBROCK: Well, it's really exciting, isn't it? I mean, when you begin looking at what AI can do as...let's call it a copilot. I thought some of the numbers that Ethan Mollick at Wharton Business School shared on his blog and his study with Boston Consulting Group, which is that an AI copilot can actually raise the quality of work, raise the floor to 82%, what he calls mediocrity. 82% was a pretty good grade for a lot of kids in my classes back when I was a Montessori teacher.
\n\nBut, in this case, what it does is it raises the floor to care by guiding through apprenticeship, and it allows people to learn through observation and trial and error. And people who are already at that 82nd percentile, according to Mollick's numbers, increase their productivity by 40%. The thing that we're not clear on is if certain people have a greater natural proficiency or proclivity for using these care pilots or if it's a learned behavior.
\n\nCHAD: So, the impact that CareTrainer can have is huge. The surface area of the problem and the size of the industry is huge. But often, from a product perspective, what we're trying to do is get to market, figure out the smallest addressable, minimum viable product. Was that a challenge for you to figure out, okay, what's the first thing that we do, and how do we bring that to market and without getting overwhelmed with all the potential possibilities that you have?
\n\nBROCK: Yeah, of course. I start out with what I call a GRITS model. I start out with, what are my goals? Then R, let's review the market. How is this problem being addressed now? I, what are my ideas for addressing these goals, and what's currently being done? And T, what tasks need to be completed in order to test these ideas? And what steps will I take to test them and iterate as far as a roadmap?
\n\nAnd what that allowed me to do is to begin saying, okay, let's take the ideas that I can bring together first that are going to have the first initial impact because we're bootstrapping. And what we need to be able to do is get into a room with somebody who realizes that training caregivers and nursing is something that needs a review, maybe some fresh ideas. And getting that in front of them, understanding that that's our MVP 1 was really important. And what was really interesting is our MVP 2 through 5, we've begun to see that the technology is just exponential, the growth and progress.
\n\nOur MVP 2 we thought we're going to be doing a heck of a lot of stuff with multimedia reinforcement learning. But now we're finding that some of the AI giants have actually done the work for us. So, I have just been very happy that we started out simple. And we looked at what is our core problem, which is, you know, what's the best way to train people? And how do we do that with the least amount of effort and the most amount of impact? And the key to it is customer obsession. And this is something I learned at Amazon as their first principle.
\n\nAnd many of the experiences that I brought from places like Amazon and other big tech is, how do I understand the needs of the customer? What problems do they have, and what would make this a more playful experience? And, in this case, I wanted to design for curiosity. And the thing that I like to say about that is AI chose its symbol of the spark really smartly. And I think the spark is what people want in life. And the spark is exploring, and it's finding something. And you see this kind of spark of life, this learning, and you discover it. You create more from it. You share it. It's enlightening. It's inspirational. It makes people excited. It's something that they want to share. It's inventing. It's creation.
\n\nI think that's what we wanted to have people experience in our learning, rather than my own experience in computer-based training, which was sitting in front of a flashified PowerPoint with multiple choice questions and having the text read to me. And, you know, spending 40 hours doing that was kind of soul-killing. And what I really wanted to do was be engaged and start learning through experience. And that's what came down to our MVP 1 is, how do we begin to change the way that training occurs? How can we change the student experience and still provide for the institutional needs to get people on the floor and caring for people? And that was our first priority.
\n\nAnd that's how we began to make hard decisions about how we were going to develop from MVP 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 because we had all the big ideas immediately. And part of that is because I had created a package like this back in 2004 for a five-state regional care provider in the Midwest. Back then, I was designing what could only be called a finite game. I'm designing in Flash for web. I'm doing decision trees with dialogue, and it's much like a video game, but a serious game. It's getting the assessment correct in the interactions and embedding the learning in the interaction and then being able to judge that and provide useful feedback for the player.
\n\nAnd what this did was it made it possible for them to have interactive learning through doing in the form of a video game, which was a little bit more fun than studying a textbook or taking a computer-based test. It also allowed the health system a little bit more focus on the patients because what was happening is that they would be taking their best people off the floor and taking a partial schedule to train these new people. But 45% of those that they were training were leaving within the first 30 days. So, the game was actually an approach to providing that interaction as a guided apprenticeship without taking their best people off the floor into part-time schedules and the idea that they might not even be there in 30 days.
\n\nSo, that's kind of a lot to describe, but I would say that the focus on the MVP 1 was, this is the problem that we're going to help you with. We're going to get people out of the seats and onto the floor, off the screen, caring for people. And we're going to guide them through this guided apprenticeship, which allows for contextual computing and interaction, as we've worked with comparing across, like, OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, Mistral, Grok, trying these different approaches to AI, figuring out which models work best within this context. And, hopefully, when we walk in and we're sitting with an exec, we get a "Wow," [laughs]. And that's the big thing with our initial technology. We really want a wow.
\n\nI shared this with a former instructor at the University of Minnesota, Joe Gaugler, and I said...I showed him, and he's like, "Wow, why isn't anybody doing this with nursing and such?" And I said, "Well, we are," you know, that's what I was hoping he would say. And that's the thing that we want to see when we walk into somebody's office, and we show them, and they say, "Wow, this is cool." "Wow, we think it's cool. And we hope you're going to want to go on this journey with us." And that's what MVP 1 should do for us is solve what seems like a little problem, which is a finite game-type technology, but turn it into an infinite game technology, which is what's possible with AI and machine learning.
\n\nWILL: I love, you know, you're talking about your background, being a teacher, and in gaming, and I can see that in your product, which is awesome. Because training can be boring, especially if it's just reading or any of those things. But when you make it real life, when you put someone, I guess that's where the quote comes from, you put them in the game, it's so much better. So, for you, with your teacher background and your gaming background, was there a personal experience that you had that brought out your passion for caregiving?
\n\nBROCK: You know, my mom is a nurse. She has always been into personal development. By the time I was in sixth grade, I was going to CPR classes with her while she was [inaudible 19:22] her nursing thing [laughs]. So, I was invited to propose a solution for the first version of CareTrainer, which had a different name back in 2004, which we sold. That led to an invitation to work and support the virtual clinic for the University of Minnesota Medical School, which is no longer a thing. The virtual clinic that is the medical school is still one of the best in the country, a virtual stethoscope writing grants as an academic for elder care.
\n\nAnd I would have to say my personal story is that at the end of their lives, I took care of both my maternal grandmother in her home while I was going to college. And then, I took care of my paternal grandfather while I was going to college. And, you know, those experiences were profound for me because I was able to sit down and have coffee with them, tell jokes, learn about their lives. I saw the stories that went with the pictures.
\n\nAnd I think one of the greatest fears that I saw in many of the potential customers that I've spoken to is at the end of a loved one's life that they didn't learn some of the things that they had hoped from them. And they didn't have the stories that went with all the pictures in the box, and that's just an opportunity missed.
\n\nSo, I think those are some of the things that drive me. It's just that connection to people. And I think that's what makes us humane is that compassion, that wanting to understand, and, also, I think a desire to have compassion and to be understood. And I think that's where gaming and play are really important because making mistakes is part of play. And you can make lots of mistakes and have lots of ways to solve a problem in a game. Whereas in computer-based training and standardized tests, which I used to address as a teacher, there's typically one right answer, and, in life, there is rarely a right answer [laughs].
\n\nCHAD: Well, and not really an opportunity to learn from mistakes either. Like, you don't necessarily get an opportunity on a standardized test to review the answers you got wrong in any meaningful way and try to learn from that experience.
\n\nBROCK: Have you ever taken one of those tests and you're like, well, that's kind of right, but I think my answer is better, but it's not here [laughter]? I think what we really want from schools is creativity and innovation. And when we're showing kids that there's just a right answer, we kind of take the steam out of their engine, which is, you know, well, what if I just explore this and make mistakes?
\n\nAnd I remember, in high school, I had an art teacher who said, "Explore your mistakes." Maybe you'll find out that their best is intentional. Maybe it's a feature, not a bug [laughs]. I think when I say inculcate play or inspire play, there's a feeling of psychological safety that we can be vulnerable, that we can explore, we can discover; we can create, and we can share.
\n\nAnd when people say, "Oh, well, that's stupid," and you can say, "Well, I was just playing. I'm just exploring. I discovered this. I kind of messed around with a little bit, and I wanted to show you." And, hopefully, the person backs off a little bit from their strong statement and says, "Oh, I can see this and that." And, hopefully, that's the start of a conversation and maybe a startup, right [laughs]?
\n\nCHAD: Well, there are so many opportunities in so many different industries to have an impact by introducing play. Because, in some ways, I feel like that may have been lost a little bit in so many sort of like addressing problems at scale or when scaling up to particular challenges. I think we trend towards standardization and lose a little bit of that.
\n\nBROCK: I agree. I think humans do like continuity and predictability. But what we find in product is that when we can pleasantly surprise, we're going to build a customer base, you know, that doesn't come from, you know, doing the same thing all the time that everybody else does. That's kind of the table stakes, right? It works. But somebody is going to come along that does it in a more interesting way. And people are going to say, "Oh."
\n\nIt's like the arts and crafts effect in industrialization, right? Everybody needs a spoon to eat soup, a lot of soup [laughs]. And somebody can make a lot of spoons. And somebody else says, "Well, I can make spoons, too." "And how do I differentiate?" "Well, I've put a nice scrollwork design on my spoon. And it's beautiful, versus this other very plain spoon. I'll sell it to you for a penny more." And most people will take the designed thing, the well-designed thing that provides some beauty and some pleasure in their life. And I think that's part of what I described as the spark is that realization that we live in beauty, that we live in this kind of amazing place that inspires wonder when we're open to it.
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\n\nWILL: You mentioned gamifying the training and how users are more involved. It's interesting because I'm actually going through this with my five-year-old. We're trying to put him in kindergarten, and he loves to play. And so, if you put him around a game, he'll learn it. He loves it. But most of the schools are like, workbooks, sit down; focus, all of those things.
\n\nAnd it probably speaks to your background as being a Montessori teacher, but how did you come up with gamifying it for the trainee, I guess you could say? Like, how did you come up with that plan? Because I feel like in the school systems, a lot of that is missing because it's like, like you said, worksheets equal that boring PowerPoint that we have to sit down and read and stuff like that. So, how did you come up with the gamifying it when society is saying, "Worksheets, PowerPoints. Do it this way."
\n\nBROCK: I think that is something I call the adult convenience model. Who's it better for: the person who has to do the grading and the curriculum design, or the kid doing the learning? And I think that, in those cases, the kid doing the learning misses out. And the way that we validate that behavior is by saying, "Well, you've got to learn how to conform. You've got to learn how to put your own interests and drives aside and just learn how to focus on this because I'm telling you to do it." And I think that's important, to be able to do what you're asked to do in a way that you're asked to do it. But I think that the instructional model that I'm talking about takes much more up-front thought.
\n\nAnd where I came from with it is studying the way that I like to learn. I struggled in school. I really did. I was a high school dropout. I went to junior college in Cupertino, and I was very surprised to find out that I could actually go to college, even though I hadn't finished high school. And I began to understand that it's very different when you get to college, so much more of it is about giving you an unstructured problem that you have to address. And this is the criteria under which you're going to solve the problem and how I'm going to grade you. And these are the qualities of the criteria, and what this is, is basically a rubric.
\n\nWe actually see these rubrics and such in products. So, for example, when I was at American Family, we had this matrix of different insurance policies and all the different things in the column based upon rows that you would get underneath either economy, standard, or performance. And I think it was said by somebody at Netflix years ago; there's only two ways to sell bundled and unbundled. The idea is that there were these qualities that changed as a gradient or a ratio as you moved across this matrix. And the price went up a little bit for each one of those qualities that you added into the next row or column, and that's basically a rubric.
\n\nAnd when we begin to create a rubric for learning, what we're really doing is moving into a moment where we say, "This is the criteria under which I'm going to assess you. These are the qualities that inform the numbers that you're going to be graded with or the letter A, B, or C, or 4, 3, 2, 1. What does it mean to have a 4? Well, let me give you some qualities." And one of the things that I do in training companies and training teams is Clapping Academy. You want to do that together?
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I would love to.
\n\nBROCK: Would you like to try it here? Okay. Which one of you would like to be the judge?
\n\nWILL: I'll do it.
\n\nBROCK: Okay. As the judge, you're going to tell me thumbs up or thumbs down. I'm going to clap for you. Ready? [Claps] Thumbs up or thumbs down?
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: I say thumbs up. It was a clap [laughs].
\n\nBROCK: Okay. Is it what you were expecting?
\n\nWILL: No, it wasn't.
\n\nBROCK: Ah. What are some of the qualities of clapping that we could probably tease out of what you were expecting? Like, could volume or dynamics be one?
\n\nWILL: Yeah, definitely. And then, like, I guess, rhythm of it like music, like a music rhythm of it.
\n\nBROCK: Okay. In some cases, you know, like at jazz and some churches, people actually snap. They don't clap. So, hands or fingers or style. So, if we were to take these three categories and we were to break them 4, 3, 2, 1 for each one, would a 4 be high volume, or would it be middle volume for you?
\n\nWILL: Oh, wow. For that, high volume.
\n\nBROCK: Okay. How about rhythm? Would it be 4 would be really fast; 1 would be really slow? I think slow would be...we have this cultural term called slow clapping, right [laughter]? So, maybe that would be bad, right [laughter]? A 1 [laughter]? And then, style maybe this could be a non-numerical category, where it could just be a 1 or a 2, and maybe hands or slapping a thigh or snapping knuckles. What do you think?
\n\nWILL: I'm going off of what I know. I guess a clap is technically described as with hands. So, I'll go with that.
\n\nBROCK: Okay, so a 4 would be a clap. A 3 might be a thigh slap [laughter]. A 2 might be a snap, and a 1 would be air clap [laughter].
\n\nWILL: Yep.
\n\nBROCK: Okay. So, you can't see this right now. But let's see, if I were to ask you what constitutes a 12 out of 12 possible, we would have loud, fast, hand-to-hand clap. I think we could all do it together, right [Clapping]? And that is how it works. What I've just done is I've created criteria. I've created gradients or qualities. And then, we've talked about what those qualities mean, and then you have an idea of what it might look like into the future. You have previewed it.
\n\nAnd there's a difference here in video games. A simulation is where I copy you step by step, and I demonstrate, in performance, what's been shown to me to be accurate to what's been shown to me. Most humans don't learn like that. Most of us learn through emulation, which is we see that there's an outcome that we want to achieve, and we see how it starts. But we have to improvise between the start and the end. In a book by Michael Tomasello on being human...he's an anthropologist, and he studies humans, and he studied other primates like great apes. And he talks about emulation as like the mother using a blade of grass, licking it, and putting it down a hole to collect ants so that she can eat the ants.
\n\nAnd oftentimes, the mother may have their back to her babies. And the babies will see the grass, and they'll see that she's putting it in her mouth, but they won't see the whole act. So, they've just [inaudible 33:29] through trial and error, see if they can do it. And this is the way an earlier paper that I wrote in studying kids playing video games was. We start with trial and error. We find a tactic that works for us. And then, in a real situation, there might be multiple tactics that we can use, and that becomes a strategy. And then, we might choose different strategies for different economic benefits.
\n\nSo, for example, do I want to pay for something with pennies or a dollar, or do I want a hundred pennies to carry around? Or would I rather have a dollar in a game, right? We have to make this decision of, what is the value of it, and what is the encumbrance of it? Or if it's a shooting game, am I going to take out a road sign with a bazooka when I might need that bazooka later on? And that becomes economic decision-making.
\n\nAnd then, eventually, we might have what's called top site, which is, I understand that the game has these different rules, opportunities, roles, and experiences. How do I want to play? For example, Fallout 4 was a game that I really enjoyed. And I was blown away when I found out that a player had actually gone through the Final Boss and never injured another non-player character in the game. They had just done the whole thing in stealth. And I thought that is an artistic way to play. It's an expression. It's creative. It's an intentional way of moving through the game.
\n\nAnd I think that when we provide that type of independent, individual expression of learning, we're allowing people to have a unique identity, to express it creatively, and to connect in ways that are interesting to other people so that we can learn from each other. And I think that's what games can do.
\n\nAnd one of the hurdles that I faced back in 2004 was I was creating a finite game, where what I had coded in decision trees, in dialogue, in video interactions, once that was there, that was done. Where we're at now is, I can create an infinite game because I've learned how to leverage machine learning in order to generate lots of different contexts using the type of criteria and qualities that I described to you in Clapping Academy, that allow me to evaluate many different variations of a situation, but with the same level of expectation for professionalism, knowledge and expertise, communication, compassion, curiosity. You know, these are part of the eight elements of what is valued in the nursing profession.
\n\nAnd when we have those rubrics, when we have that matrix, we begin to move into a new paradigm in teaching and learning because there's a much greater latitude and variety of how we get up the mountain. And that's one of the things that I learned as a teacher is that every kid comes in differently, but they're just as good. And every kid has a set of gifts that we can have them, you know, celebrate in service to warming up cold spots.
\n\nAnd I think that sometimes kids are put into situations, and so are adults, where they're told to overcome this cold spot without actually leveraging the things that they're good at. And the problem with that is, in learning sciences, it's a transfer problem, which is if I learn it to pass the test, am I ever going to apply it in life, or is it just going to be something that I forget right away? And my follow-ups on doing classroom and learning research is that it is usually that. They learned it for the test. They forgot it, and they don't even remember ever having learned it.
\n\nAnd the greatest gift that I got, having been a teacher, was when my wife and I would, I don't know, we'd be somewhere like the grocery store or walking out of a Target, and a couple of young people would come up and say, "Yo, Mr. Dubbs," And I'd be like, "Hey [laughs]!" And they're like, "Hey, man, you remember when we did that video game class and all that?" And I was like, "Yeah, you were so good at that." Or "Remember when we made those boats, and we raced them across the pool?" "Yeah, yeah, that was a lot of fun, wasn't it?" And I think part of it was that I was having as much fun doing the classes and the lessons as they were doing it.
\n\nAnd it's kind of like a stealth learning, where they are getting the experience to populate these abstract concepts, which are usually tested on these standardized choice tests. And it's the same problem that we have with scaling a technology. Oftentimes, the way that we scale is based on conformity and limited variation when we're really scaling the wrong things. And I think it's good to be able to scale a lot of the tasks but provide great variety in the way that we can be human-supported around them.
\n\nSo, sure, let's scale sales and operations, but let's also make sure that we can scope out variation in how we do sales, and how we do customer service, and how we do present our product experience. So, how do we begin to personalize in scope and still be able to scale? And I think that's what I'm getting at as far as how I'm approaching CareTrainer, and how I'm approaching a lot of the knowledge translation that we're doing for startups, and consulting with larger and medium-sized businesses on how they can use AI.
\n\nCHAD: That's awesome. Bringing it back to CareTrainer, what are some of the hurdles or cold spots that are in front of you and the business? What are the next steps and challenges in front of you?
\n\nBROCK: I think the big thing is that I spend a good two to three [laughs] hours a day reading about the advances in the tech, you know, staying ahead of the knowledge translation and the possible applications. I mean, it's hard to actually find time to do the work because the technology is moving so fast. And, like I said, we were starting to build MVP 2, and we realized, you know what, this is going to be done for us in a little while. You know, it'd be cool if we can do this bespoke. But why not buy the thing that's already there rather than creating it from scratch, unless we're going to do something really different?
\n\nI think that the biggest hurdle is helping people to think differently. And with the elder care crisis and the care crisis, I think that we really have to help people think differently about the things that we've done. I think regulation is really important, especially when it comes to health care, treatment, prescription safety. I think, though, that there are a lot of ways that we can help people to understand those regulations rather than put them in a seat in front of a monitor.
\n\nCHAD: I think people respond to, you know, when there's a crisis, different people respond in different ways. And it's a natural tendency to not want to rock the boat, not introduce new things because that's scary. And adding more, you know, something that is scary to a difficult situation already is hard for some people. Whereas other people react to a crisis realizing that we got into the crisis for a reason. And the old ways of doing things might not necessarily be the thing to get us out of it.
\n\nBROCK: Yeah, I totally agree. When I run into that, the first thought that comes to my head is, when did you stop learning [laughs]? When did you stop seeking learning? Because, for me, if I were to ever stop learning, I'd realize that I'd started dying. And that's what I mean by the spark, is, no matter what your age, as long as you're engaged in seeking out learning opportunities, life is exciting. It's an adventure. You're discovering new frontiers, and, you know, that's the spark. I think when people become complacent, and they say, "Well, this is the way we've always done it," okay, has that always served us well?
\n\nAnd there are a lot of cultural issues that go with this. So, for example, there are cultural expectations about the way kids learn in class. Like, kids who come from blue-collar families might say, "Hey, you know what? My kid is going to be doing drywall, or he's going to be working fixing cars, or he's going to be in construction, or why does he need to do this? Or why does she need to do that? And, as a parent, I don't even understand the homework." And then, there are the middle-class folks who say, "You know what? I'm given these things. They need to be correct, accurate, and easy to read. And that's my job. And I don't see this in my kids' curriculum."
\n\nAnd then, there are the creatives who say, "Hey, you know, this has nothing to do with where my kid is going. My kids are creative. They're going to have ambiguous problems that they have to come up with creative solutions for." Then you get to the executive class where, like, these elite private schools, where they say, "My kid is going to be a leader in the industry, and what they should be doing is leading groups of people through an activity in order to accomplish a goal."
\n\nAnd those are four different pedagogical approaches to learning.
\n\nSo, I'm wondering, what is it that we expect from our caregivers? And I've got kind of a crazy story from that, where this young woman, [SP] Gemma, who was a middle school student, I gave her the option, along with my other kids, to either take a standardized test on Greek myths, or they could write their own myth. And she wrote this myth about a mortal who fell in love with a young goddess. Whenever they would wrap and embrace and kiss, a flame would occur.
\n\nOne day the mother found out and says, "Oh, you've fallen in love with a mortal. Well, here you shall stay. This shall be your penance." And she wrapped her in this thread, this rope, and dipped them in wax so they would be there forever. But then the flame jumped to the top, and that is how candles were created.
\n\nAnd I read that, and I was...and this is, like, you know, 30 years ago, and I still have this at the top of my head. And I was like, "Gemma, that was amazing. Are you going to go to college?" And she says, "No." "No? Really? What are you going to do?" "I want to be a hairstylist." And, in my mind, my teacher mind is like, oh no, no, no, no. You [laughs] need to go to college. But then I thought about it. I thought, why wouldn't I want a smart, skilled, creative person cutting my hair? And, you know, people who cut hair make really good money [laughter].
\n\nAnd the whole idea is, are we actually, you know, empowering people to become their best selves and be able to explore those things? Or are we, you know, scaring them out of their futures with, you know, fear? Those are the big hurdles, which is, I'm afraid of the future. And the promise is, well, it's going to be different. But I can't assure you that it's not going to come without problems that we're going to have to figure out how to solve. And there are some who don't want the problems. They just want how it's always been.
\n\nAnd I think that's the biggest hurdle we face is innovation and convincing people that trying something new it may not be perfect, but it's a step in the right direction. And I think Hans Rosling in Factfulness said it very well. He said, "Things are better than they were before, but they're not great." Can we go from good to great? Sure. And what do we need to do? But we always are getting better, as long as we're continuing to adapt and create and be playful and look at different ways of doing things because now people are different, but just as good.
\n\nCHAD: Brock, I really appreciate you stopping by and bringing your creativity, and energy, and playfulness to this difficult problem of caregiving. I'm excited for what the future holds for not only CareTrainer but the impact that you're going to have on the world. I really appreciate it.
\n\nBROCK: Well, thank you for having me and letting me tell these stories, and, also, thanks for participating in Clapping Academy [laughter].
\n\nWILL: It was great.
\n\nCHAD: If folks want to get in touch with you or follow along with you, or if they work in a healthcare organization where they think CareTrainer might be right for them, where are all the places that they can do that?
\n\nBROCK: You can reach me at brock@caretrainer.ai. They can express interest on our website at caretrainer.ai. They can reach me at my personal website, brockdubbels.com, or connect with me on LinkedIn, because, you know, life is too short not to have friends. So, let's be friends [laughs].
\n\nCHAD: You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this entire episode along with a complete transcript at giantrobots.fm.
\n\nWILL: If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm.
\n\nCHAD: You can find me on Mastodon at cpytel@thoughtbot.social.
\n\nWILL: And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nCHAD: Thank you again, Brock. And thank you all for listening. See you next time.
\n\nAD:
\n\nDid you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.
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Sponsored By:
Host Chad Pytel interviews Monik Pamecha, the Co-Founder and CEO of Toma, a company specializing in AI for the automotive industry. Monik discusses how Toma automates phone calls for car dealerships, enhancing customer service and streamlining interactions. Despite advancements in digital communication, phone calls remain crucial in the automotive sector, and Toma leverages AI to improve these experiences significantly.
\n\nMonik shares his journey in the tech industry, detailing Toma's evolution from experimenting with different AI applications to focusing on voice AI. He explains the challenges and successes faced along the way, highlighting how AI technology has matured since his early work with chatbots in 2016. The conversation reveals how Toma's voice AI quickly gained user traction, validating their focus on this innovative technology.
\n\nThe episode also delves into the practical implementation of Toma's AI solutions in the automotive industry. Monik emphasizes the importance of integrating AI with existing dealership software and the gradual rollout process to ensure effectiveness. He discusses the need for clear communication about AI's role in customer interactions, reflecting diverse responses across different demographics. Monik's insights provide a compelling look at the future of AI in automotive customer service.
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And I'm joined today by Monik Pamecha, Co-Founder and CEO of Toma, which provides AI for the automotive industry. Monik, thanks for joining me.
\n\nMONIK: Hey, Chad, thanks for having me.
\n\nCHAD: Obviously, in fact, as evidenced by the guest list that we've had over the last few months, a lot of companies are either integrating AI into their products or starting new companies. And you've been around doing AI for quite a while now. Tell us about Toma.
\n\nMONIK: Yeah. So, Toma automates phone calls for the automotive industry right now, and we build a lot of different AI products as well. It's an interesting market, but one of the leading users of phone calls for doing business. So, a lot of the business, which is buying cars, you know, the first touch happens over the phone, you know, people bringing in their cars for service, getting updates, and all that, like, mostly happens over the phone, even though you have had websites and apps and all of these around.
\n\nAnd to give you, like, an idea of scale, like, there are 290 million cars in the U.S. alone, which is, like, about 90% of the population has at least one car. So, scale is massive, and Toma is making that experience of getting service and just dealing with anything related to automotive, like, 100 times better.
\n\nCHAD: So, I would encourage people to go to the website and check it out, because, I have to admit, I was a little skeptical, at first, about how good the phone call could actually be. And I was impressed by how natural it was, how it was able to respond in the video demos that I saw. So, how did you know that this was going to be possible?
\n\nMONIK: I think a lot of it comes from our own experiences, I mean, not with automotive, but with technology. So, I've been in tech for a long time. I mean, I started writing code when I was, I think, 11 or 12, a similar story for my co-founders as well. But I've been doing machine learning research as well in the past. In fact, this was in 2016 when I wrote a paper on this as well, and we built a chatbot that was based on generative models. And, at the time, in 2016, it was really funky. Like, Google had come up with something called Sequence to Sequence, and we were using that to train it on a little bit of data that we had, and we had something that kind of worked.
\n\nAnd, at the time, I was thinking that, I mean, when you were working with that, you'd see it, like, go off the rails and, like, do something really stupid. It couldn't even get grammar right. And, at the time, I saw all the holes that I was like, if somebody plugged these, like, you know, this would be phenomenal. Like, this is what it takes for it to work, you know, these are the places, more from a practical experience, right? Like, if you had to take it to production, like, what would you need to fix?
\n\nAnd then, six years later, I see that things actually started picking up, right, like, they actually fixed all those holes. And it came back to me, and I was like, all right, this is the time. You know, those were the issues. They're all fixed. Now you can go ahead and build. So, I think a lot of it came from experience as to like, all right, this is what we should build, or this is why we should build, like, in terms of the technology. But we didn't really arrive at this idea, so to speak, you know, at least as a founding team. It was a lot of pivots.
\n\nCHAD: What was the original sort of idea that you said, okay, we're going to start a company to do this?
\n\nMONIK: Well, that was very different from this very, very different. So, my co-founder and I, like, most founders, like, the first thing they do is they try to look for problems that they themselves have. And we're like, huh, looks like...what do we have in common? We have some chronic conditions, and we've used diet to, you know, manage them. So, maybe let's build a tool to help, you know, patients manage conditions with, you know, diet recommendations. And we spent six months on that, and it went absolutely nowhere.
\n\nAlso, I think consumer products are just different. They require a different kind of thinking. But, you know, we were just trying to throw something on the wall and pray it sticks. And, you know, it was honestly pretty miserable because we got banned on a bunch of communities on Reddit and Facebook trying to promote it. And, like, all the people who tried our product they just never came back again, and, you know, things like that when you have something that people don't want, right? So, we see that side.
\n\nI mean, and after that, we go ahead and we try to do...I think it was during it, I don't know, like, when you get a sense of, like, something's not going to work, where, like, then we realized maybe we should stick to what we know best, which is, you know, we're both technical. So, maybe we should do something that's, you know, more relying on those skills than something entirely different, which I think Y Combinator calls it founder-market fit. I think that's also very true. Of course, you can, like, build something for a business you know nothing about, but there must be some compatibility.
\n\nSo, yeah, we started with that, kept on experimenting. And then, I think, at some point, we were so annoyed that we made, you know, a list on Google Sheets. And we're like, all right, let's just, you know, vomit out 10 ideas that we have had, and let's write them all, and let's go after them one by one. Let's spend two weeks until we hit something that, you know, maybe we think has legs. And the third idea or the fourth idea on that was building something with voice AI. And, at the time, even that was, like, just a horizontal platform. That was it. All right, so we go ahead and commit to that.
\n\nSo, if we go through the list, try the first two or three ideas, I think the first thing was...then we went on the other extreme where we're like, all right, let's do something we do all day long, which is, as engineers, we are on call. So, you know, even at, I don't know, 2:00 a.m. in the night if your system is down, you get a pager on your phone saying, "Get on the computer and fix it." And we're like, how could we make that better? That was the first thing on that list. We spent some time trying to do it and, again, we kind of get that feeling.
\n\nI think the more you fail, I guess, the better you get at detecting failure. I don't know about success but failure for sure it works like that. I think the third or the fourth idea was voice AI, and then we go ahead. We hack a prototype over a weekend and then put it out on...again, the communities that we know how to market were, like, Facebook groups and Reddit. And it picks up. Like, within, like, 3 days, we had 200 demo calls set up. And that just blew our minds because having been on the other side, we're like, oh, this is what it feels like when people kind of want something, what you have. I mean, it's still not clear, right? But --
\n\nCHAD: And you put it out there as automated voice assistant for businesses?
\n\nMONIK: No, actually what we did [laughs], I mean, nobody will want to click that if you put it like that [laughter]. You know, just out of curiosity, I was like, "Hey, you know, I've built this thing. It does this, you know, what do you think? Do you think this has any use for you?" And that's it. Like, people are, you know, messaging me nonstop, like, DMing me that, "Can you please share it with me? You know, I run this business. This might be helpful."
\n\nIt was, like, more genuine. Like, I was just exploring, but, you know, that was a question that I posed. And that had, like, so many people show up, and they're like, "How about you just give us that and we can make money off of this?" And then, we started, you know, digging deeper, and we're like, oh, okay, it looks like you have so many manual processes and across industries. So, we had, like, some people from healthcare, some people from, like, you know, MLMs, multi-level marketing, so many different industries, optometrists, some in construction.
\n\nAnyway, so we're, like, thinking at that point, huh, okay. Maybe there is something here. Again, no mention of automotive, no mention of dealerships, nothing. We had a single dealership then. And I would say this was, like, about six months. I don't even know how many months ago, but, like, a couple of months ago. I think, at the time, is when we applied to Y Combinator as well.
\n\nCHAD: So, you applied to Y Combinator with the voice idea.
\n\nMONIK: Right. And we put something out there. I forget if it was the healthcare idea or the voice idea, but it's probably one of the two. I mean, that's also the other thing about Y Combinator. I think they don't really focus on ideas as much as they just focus on teams, which I think is probably the best practice. You know, we pivoted again [laughs].
\n\nBut yeah, so we did voice AI, and then spent some time just trying to do everything, right? Trying to build a horizontal layer for voice, where building assistance for all kinds of businesses. And, you know, one of the businesses, at the time, was a dealership. I always like to think of this as an arranged marriage, where, you know, we have the customer. We kind of work through it --
\n\nCHAD: So, you had an actual dealership that you were partnered with as sort of a expert in the industry?
\n\nMONIK: Our first customer, right. And they were very progressive dealers, so they're always trying new things. And, at the time, we were working with a bank. We were working with some healthcare locations as well. We had some construction industry... whatnot. And we were going crazy trying to build something because everybody had these different requirements. And then, in practice, like, if you push AI out in the wild, to make it work, you need a lot of things, like deep domain expertise being one of them.
\n\nSo, that realization is happening, you know, where we're coming to terms with that. And, at the same time, it works really well for the dealership, and they bring another customer. And they're like, "Oh, they also want to use it," and we're like, "Okay, sure. We'll turn it on." Then we do it. And then, it works again. And then, they bring more customers. And then, we're like, wait a minute, you know, like, we're not doing any outreach. We're not pushing out anything, and it seems like customers want it. And then, there are these other places where we're struggling so much.
\n\nLike, even with healthcare, you know, the regulations in banking and healthcare they slow down, you know, any sort of, like, AI implementations. So, even that world was very different with the automotive space. And you kind of do more of it and then you're like, oh, okay, looks like there is something here, and then we just decide to double down on that space. And then, we go further deep in and you realize, oh --
\n\nCHAD: Did Y Combinator...that can be a difficult decision for founders to make. So, did being in Y Combinator help you sort of give you the push to make that kind of bold decision?
\n\nMONIK: At least from our experience, it's always been that they're, like, get to the truth very quickly, whatever it is, and then make a decision. Do not delay it. I think we were, in fact, slow to do that. I think they were probably pushing people to do it more because we saw companies pivot in our batch, like, two times, three times right before demo day, which is the end of the program. Like, two weeks before, they just completely changed the company, and that's completely okay.
\n\nCHAD: So, how does an implementation actually happen? How does it roll out to a new customer?
\n\nMONIK: I mean, this is also very new, right? I think as you come across new customers, you have to adapt the process. But the essence of it is that you first have some data to start, which is, for example, for us, we work with a bunch of call recordings because a lot of our customers are already recording a lot of their calls. So, that gives you, like, some data as to what the experience is like today. Then the next thing is you get an idea of what you know your customers want the experience to be like. And then, you're basically now figuring out the delta between the two.
\n\nAnd then, you're configuring the AI agents, making sure, testing it. And then, you have, like, a period of, like, a week or so where you get through all of that. Then you work through integrations with existing softwares. That also, by the way, is another, like, I would say automotive is a sleeping giant. Like, an auto dealership, on average, like, per month will be spending $50, 000 on software.
\n\nCHAD: Wow.
\n\nMONIK: Because the whole business runs on software—everything starting from sales, inventory, parts, service, everything, repair orders—all of it comes through that.
\n\nCHAD: Now, is there a single common platform that a lot of dealers are using?
\n\nMONIK: Unfortunately, no. There are some major players; CDK Global is one of them, which actually was hacked recently. And it's in, like, over 15, 000 dealerships, and all of them shut down.
\n\nCHAD: Wow.
\n\nMONIK: Like, they just couldn't do any business, and they had to come up with creative workarounds. So, it was pretty painful, kind of, like, a COVID, you know, COVID moment for them. And then, yeah, we've been trying to help our dealers, whoever used that software, to, you know, again, come out with workarounds, where the AI is actually capturing all the information. And, you know, instead of dumping it into that system, it's, you know, finding workarounds on how to get it to our dealers. But yeah, so you integrate with them. That is, like, another major step. And they're, you know, they're not the most tech-forward companies so, you know, that can be a little challenging.
\n\nCHAD: Right. So, they use a lot of software, but they're not necessarily tech for...they probably don't have big IT departments and that kind of thing. And then, the users are probably non-technical.
\n\nMONIK: Correct. Yeah. The thing about dealers, I think, is that they're so plugged into the business, like, they know everything that is happening in the business. Everybody knows what the bottom line looks, what really will move the needle, what is a good customer experience. They may not be technical, but I don't think it even matters. That's the thing.
\n\nBut yeah, we were talking about, like, the process, so it takes a couple of weeks So, you do, you know, you get all the information from them as to what needs to be done. You integrate into the systems. And then, the next thing that you do is you start slowly, where, for example, when we start taking phone calls for them, we initially start with off hours and overflow. So, when nobody's able to pick up a phone call, we get the phone calls. And that's how you get, like, some training data at the beginning in a safe manner.
\n\nAnd then, as the volume increases, you know, you get more confident, and you roll it out to a larger audience. But I think the key thing here is it has to be a gradual process because, even for the customer, it's something so new, like, to have a full-fledged conversation. Like, you can have a phone tree where it's, like, press one; press two. You're used to that kind of stuff, and that's been around for 15 years, and it still is, you know. And it is not the most natural thing, but it continues to exist. So, this is the next, you know, natural evolution of that interface where it's more free-flowing and, you know, less annoying.
\n\nCHAD: Do all of your customers...when the AI agent answers, does it say it's an AI agent?
\n\nMONIK: I mean, our recommendation is to always say that. I mean, it's up to the customer, eventually, if they want to say that or not. And, in fact, it is pretty interesting. Demographics make a huge difference. Like, we're live in, you know, all the states, not all but I would say, like, all the major states. And the way people behave with AI agents is so different, you know, Florida, and Michigan, and California, like, we see the call quality. We see the metrics. We see how annoyed people are or how happy they are and things like that. The way they talk is so different.
\n\nAnd one of the parameters in that is actually, you know, letting them know that it is an AI or not as well. So, we tweak that based on, you know, where we are. But for the most part, we always say that because we want to set the expectations, right? Because, initially, when we didn't, the most popular question on the call was like, "Are you a human?"
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nMONIK: And the fact that people are asking it was also pretty insane, right?
\n\nCHAD: Right. They could sort of tell that something was different.
\n\nMONIK: Yeah, if you have, like, a long enough conversation because, obviously, it's not human, right? And then, you go, like, five turns into the conversation, and then you realize, okay, it sounds like a human, like, you know, it's speaking pretty quickly. It's giving me the kind of answers I want. But, like, this thing is strange because, you know, humans have a personality now.
\n\nLike, with AI, like, a lot of the systems, I mean, you can build personality into it, but it still doesn't have a personality, like, the truth is still that. And it does show up, you know, in interesting ways. And, of course, there can be, you know, some sort of mechanistic issues, you know, like, whatever, right, like, what the customer is really used to and then what you actually say. I think the best practice is to almost always declare, like, it's an AI. And that has improved call quality significantly.
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\n\nCHAD: Did you train your own models?
\n\nMONIK: Yeah, we collected enough data to be able to do that, and we have trained a lot of different components and different models. So, when you think of it, there's not, like, one model that does the whole thing. You have, like, a lot of these small, medium, and large models that do different parts. So, the voice and speech are, let's say, two components.
\n\nI think the brain of the agent is really the thing that needs the most amount of training because, you know, text to speech and voice, I mean, they have, like, you know, some limits and then, some, you know, business return. Like, after some point, like, there's not really much value to be gained there because if you can transcribe everything, you know, to a certain level of accuracy, all the regions change, you know, accents change. You can always improve. Then it's just expanding scope.
\n\nBut really, with the brain of the agent, you have multiple different models that actually interact with each other, and they're not just LLMs or generative models. You have a lot of different types of things that are going. You know, you're looking up information. You are, you know, validating something. You're making sure if, you know, this is compliant with what, you know, your company's tone is, all of these happening at the same time. And then, these are the different things that you actually really need to train because that's so specific to, you know, the type of business that is happening.
\n\nCHAD: So, are you also doing your own hosting of the models, or are you using a cloud provider for that?
\n\nMONIK: Yeah, we use cloud providers. I think having a small team it's insane. I mean, you can host custom models on a lot of these providers now. And then, a lot of them even offer services for you to, like, train and, you know, they take care of the infrastructure as well. I think it's a good thing to rely on it if you're lean and small. There's only so much a few people [chuckles] can do and focus on.
\n\nCHAD: What are you most focused on right now, either from a business or a product perspective, or, you know, where's your area of biggest risk?
\n\nMONIK: Of course, there is always, you know, risk of competition. And I guess the real question is, like, where...a lot of popular AI companies get asked this as well, right? Like, what is your moat, right? And then, I mean, I think that is the most obvious risk, right? Where, like, what is stopping anybody else from doing what you're doing, right? And there are certain parts of it, which, you know, you can de-risk. Like, having data and having proprietary data is, like, one of the biggest factors in this, right, of de-risking this.
\n\nI mean, there's also like, you know, the risk of, let's say, especially in our industry, is, like, taking technology to an industry where, you know, consumers are not pro-technology. You know, they don't want to jump at the best thing that there is, right, especially customer service generally suffers from that, right? Like, people anytime they hear a bot or something and they're like, "Ah, representative agent." So, there's, like, some underlying risk in, you know, human tendencies as to what they want.
\n\nBut, again, to think about it, like, you know, IVRs, which are these interactive voice response systems, they've been around for so long. Nothing about it is natural. It is completely alien to how we interact, but they've been around for so long. So, a lot of times, like, this innovation is actually pushed down from the business to the consumer and not the other way around. It may not be the best experience. It's getting there.
\n\nSo, it's that battle between the two, which I think can delay implementations. You know, some people, like, one of our customers, at one point, we went through the entire deal. And I think the owner of the dealership group just said, "I don't believe in AI." Now, you know, like, it's pretty hard, right? Like, you have the metrics. You have the numbers. You're generating value, but the belief is strongly held. And then, at that point, you know, there's nothing you can do.
\n\nCHAD: Do you know why they were saying that? Was it like, I don't believe it as in I don't think it can do it, or I don't believe in it as in, like, it's against my ethics, or something like that?
\n\nMONIK: I feel like it's probably because they've been burned by past experiences of AI. Like, I think chatbots have been around for so long, and a lot of people in the automotive industry have used them. Now, they used to suck. And as I remember in 2016 as well, you know, over the few years that came, like, it was still pretty terrible. So, I think it's some muscle memory from that.
\n\nAnd then, also, I think AI has been hyped a lot, and I feel like people just generally discount anything that is hyped. And the opinion is that let's just wait for the dust to settle, and then we'll just pick the winners. So, it's also possible, right? On the adoption curve, like, there's you just hit some people who are probably not on the early or even the mid, right? Maybe on the tail end, which I guess is completely fine and true for any tech adoption cycle.
\n\nCHAD: And it's true for any product that you're...this is not just an AI company problem. I think it's a startup thing, you know, to find the early adopters and then to move on from there. But you need those early adopters, those champions who are willing to do something new before other people.
\n\nMONIK: Exactly. And, I mean, yeah, it's just surprising to me how many early adopters, even in...like, there are almost early adopters in every industry. Every business has people who just want to see something, you know, they're just excited about it, like, they're willing to take the risk. And sometimes I'm not even sure why. But, you know, there's just that element of thrill, and then also, you know, beating the market to it and things like that.
\n\nAnd once you feel it, you understand the adoption curve initially. Because when you see customers, you see, ah, I see every dealership. Everybody should use us. I mean, as a naive founder, I think that that's what I used to think initially. And then, you know, over time, you get a sense of like, all right, you know, these are the types of customers that you should go after. These are the people who you should talk to first. And you build that kind of muscle as a founder and, yeah, new learnings.
\n\nCHAD: So, you started with the voice assistant. But are you moving into providing other AI-driven solutions for the automotive industry?
\n\nMONIK: Right. So, as we work with more dealers, we found out, you know, more areas that can be improved and, you know, gaps in, for example, communication. I think a lot of, like, quality of service really comes from how you can, you know, communicate with your customer. And it's not just about...you could do a good job and, you know, you could just completely destroy your, you know, quality scores because you didn't communicate well enough.
\n\nAnd you could do a bad service and still have a great, you know, service, you know, experience by communicating well. So, I think a lot of it is key to communication, and that's our focus: using AI to make it better. Voice is one channel. There are other channels as well. And there are a lot of, you know, communication gaps within, you know, our customers, you know, business set up as well. So, we try to bridge that gap.
\n\nCHAD: So, since you're focused on communication then, you're probably still leveraging generative AI solutions.
\n\nMONIK: Oh, a lot of it is, you know, improved by that technology. Like, so I always think, like, great products usually bring in two things, right? One is a necessary evil. Let's say, you know, something that has to be done like a phone system, for example, like, you need people to call in. You need to set up all the numbers, phone trees, whatever, routing. And then, there is AI, which makes that whole process easier.
\n\nSo, I think good products usually have these two things combined, where it lets you do one nasty thing, which, you know, obviously, everybody else can do in a different way. And then, there's this one exceptional thing that you can do. And then, [inaudible 27:04] together, and it makes, like, a great offering for the business. I think that's what we're working towards.
\n\nCHAD: What do you think about the way things are right now, in general? I do think that there are some companies that are saying, "Well, that great thing is the AI," but they're not necessarily solving a problem that needs to be solved in that way.
\n\nMONIK: Yeah. I mean, I think to that part, right, the hype is real. Even in my mind, I just discount, like, 40% of the things that people say about AI now. Like, I mean, I would say it's more true than not, like, 60%, sure, but, like, a rough number in my mind is just 40%, and people, like, exaggerate. But, I mean, that's not because, I guess, they're lying. It's because they're, you know, hopeful, right? Because nobody knows, like, in practice. Like, I mean, now that we've done, you know, hundreds and thousands of minutes of AI phone calls, like, that has, like, you know, added to my judgment. And I kind of know, like, you know, what is possible and what is not with even the most cutting-edge stuff there is.
\n\nI think a lot is possible. But it's unfair to say that, oh yeah, it's as good as a human, for example, right? Like, in certain use cases, that just is not true. It's a different paradigm. It's just a different design interaction that has never existed before. There's nothing human about it. You can try to force it to be as human as you want but then it is forced human. Like, it is still not natural because it just isn't.
\n\nCHAD: So, I'm getting the sense then that that might not be your north star. That might not be what you're shooting for.
\n\nMONIK: Yeah, not at all, no. At the end of the day, a tool should drive business outcomes, right? And then, to drive business outcomes, you got to understand what your customer and their users want, for example. You know, I can imagine a world where people will say, you know, when a human picks up the phone, and they're like, "No, I don't want to talk to you. Can you transfer me to a, you know, the virtual agent?" Like, it will happen, right? And it won't be natural. Like, I do not think it will be natural, and it will be different.
\n\nBecause imagine, like, a human having access to all the information at the same time. Like, how would they behave, right? Like, humans behave in a serial manner, and then there is, like, some simplicity to some interactions and some complexity to others. That's not the case with, you know, all the information you have. Like, I already know, for example, if you call me, right, and I'm an AI agent for your business, I know so much about you already, right?
\n\nLike, I'm not going to act the way, you know, an agent would act who's, like, now pulling up something on the screen, and they're like, "Give me a moment," and then they're reading through your stuff. Like, I already know all the issues you've had, all the conversations you had in the past. So, now I know what's exactly wrong, and, in fact, I'll give you the answer straight up, right? Because I can kind of get ahead and figure out what you really want.
\n\nCHAD: There's an example in one of the example videos I watched or, actually, I was trying to think, would I ever want to not talk to a person, right? There's an example in one of your videos where you can see the person does exactly what I do on a call. They say their email address is their first name dot last name at gmail.com. And that's not exactly what mine is, but it's like that.
\n\nAnd I say that, and most of the people that I talk to on the phone when I say that they...and I think it might be because they're not on a screen that has my first name and my last name on it anymore. Oftentimes, they don't remember my name, or can't see it, or can't understand what I'm saying. But the AI has all the information, and it understood what you were saying, and it just gets it instantly.
\n\nMONIK: Exactly. Another example of that, right? Let's say, like, you called six times, right? I mean, usually what happens in call centers often is that, like, you get thrown around, different agents pick up, and then maybe the data comes there. I've heard that, like, on existing recordings of, like, humans, where it's like, "I'm calling for the sixth time. Like, do you need me to repeat the same thing again?"
\n\nAnd then, they go through the same flow again because that is the policy, for example. And then, they're just so annoyed. Like, with AI, there's no such thing. It's just, you know, one model that's consistent, that's listening to everything. And it's like, even before you say...like, "I see you've called for the sixth time. You know, I'm really sorry that this is happening," and, you know, whatever. Just simple things like that.
\n\nCHAD: I'm just thinking about those experiences that I've had with customer service that have been that. And, yeah, that's why I think that this is really, you know, has a lot of potential. So, how do you sort of, you know, critics of AI will often point to, like, putting people out of work, right? How do you think about that?
\n\nMONIK: Yeah. I always, like, to pin it down to, like, evidence, and, I think, at this point, I have enough to talk about this. I think what we've seen with our technology is that a lot of it leads to repurposing of existing talent. So, for example, there are, you know, business development companies that dealerships rely on for inbound and outbound calling.
\n\nNow, when we free their time up from inbound, like, that's what we focus on right now, and take off all the mundane tasks, like, the agents that they have are now free to do a lot more outbound, which actually drives more sales or, you know, gives a better experience because, you know, people are checking up on them and saying, "Okay, how was your service a week later," right? And the person feels really good. And if there's any problem, they address it, whatever, right?
\n\nSo, I think there is more stuff to do than humans will ever be able to do, and our desires have no end. We will continue to pursue that. So, as you free up something...it's like a race which has no finish line. You get a little bit of lead, but that doesn't mean anything because now you still got to keep going and keep going, and that's what we've seen. So, you know, with service advisors, for example, who would get phone calls in the service department of the dealership all the time, now they don't get calls anymore, right? But they're able to spend more time with people in the store. So, they're actually able to upsell more.
\n\nSo, this kind of efficiencies that you drive, like, they take off the stuff that, you know, you don't want to do all the time and is repeatable to some extent, and then you free them to do things that they couldn't have done before. So, it really is, you know, realizing that there is this endless amount of work that always needs to be done. And here, I took this off your plate, but you still have all this work to do. So, it's just repurposing of, like, talent that's been happening again and again.
\n\nAnd, I mean, there is, of course, that's not to say that there is not going to be a loss of job opportunities, things like that, because, you know, it's just part of creative destruction as it is called, right? Where anything new will create some sort of disruption and then, you know, destroy certain things, but then it creates more, you know, on a net basis. That's happening, yeah.
\n\nI mean, if you think about it, like, I mean, I remember I grew up in India. This was, like, 15 years ago, I don't know, maybe 10 years ago, too. There was somebody who would sit in the elevator, and their only job was to press a button. If you think about it, right? Like, I mean, is that job like, you know, what value is it driving? Of course, like, to some extent, right? And then, they came up with these elevators where you could punch in the numbers, you know, exact floors right at the beginning, and you just walk into the right elevator, and that's done.
\n\nSo, I mean, that job obviously does not exist anymore or does not need to exist anymore, right? But, I mean, I don't know if anybody else in the world has an opinion on that job existing, for example. Like, it's just, over time, when we look back, it just seems, like, obvious that, you know, why were we doing that? We should be doing this other thing. So, I think it's just movement.
\n\nCHAD: Right. Yeah. I think it is uncomfortable in the moment but, you know, there is a certain trend to the world, aside from AI, aside even from technology, specifically of progress. And, you know, over time, positive comes from that, but that doesn't mean that there's not pain in the meantime.
\n\nMONIK: There is, yeah. Definitely, there is pain. And I think the real reason why people feel this a lot is sometimes, like, even I make that mistake myself of viewing yourself as, like, stationary in terms of, like, skills and learning. It's like, you are everything you've learned up till now. And, okay, if what I knew up until now is not going to be relevant tomorrow, then what am I going to do?
\n\nBut the thing is that everybody has the capability to learn and improve, and, in fact, even that gets easier and easier with time because technology makes that easier. And then, people are able to do more things than they could do before, learn faster, for example. And it's important to not forget that we have that ability. You know, we can always change and improve, and, in fact, knowing so much makes us even better at knowing more. And that's why we've been able to adapt to every change in history so far; we always have.
\n\nYou know, so that fear is natural. But I think, over time, when we all look back and we're like, oh my God, why were we doing that? You know, like, and we will all be doing different kinds of things. Like, that is guaranteed. That is going to happen. But that fear still exists, and I think that is what causes the pain. It's the anxiety of it. Like, really? Of course, you have to change, you know, tracks. That is very real, but it's not as painful as fear makes it.
\n\nCHAD: Well, speaking of growing, and changing, and improving, you mentioned that, you know, you and your co-founder are both technical. How have your roles changed as the company has progressed, and what have you learned [chuckles], and have you settled into any sort of roles?
\n\nMONIK: Yeah. So, I'm the CEO. My co-founder is a CTO. We both used to write code at the beginning. Now only one of us writes code.
\n\nCHAD: And I'm guessing it's not you [laughs].
\n\nMONIK: Yeah, it's not me. Although I do miss it sometimes, but, actually, to be honest, I don't.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nMONIK: I feel so happy to have found that, I mean, to have realized that. But yeah, I think, basically, I think now that I understand at least B2B business to some extent, I think you always need to have a clear split of, like, build and sell. And then, of course, there's all this additional stuff that you need to do, but I think these two distinctions need to be absolutely crystal clear because both are full-time jobs.
\n\nAnd more than that, you need, like, owners of those spaces, and it's very hard to jump between the two. I mean, if they are solo founders, I mean, it's incredible how they do it if they're able to do both, or they rely on AI, or they rely on, you know, consultants, or contractors, or whatever. But I think those are the two roles.
\n\nAnd it came, I mean, I think it was just a natural progression. It's, like, when there's more work than people, I mean, that's usually a good place to be, I think, and that's how you know something is going well. You automatically assume natural roles. Because it's in that moment of, oh no, my list is, like, growing, like, quicker than you know, something, and then I need to jump in, and then you pick up the most natural and important things to you.
\n\nAnd then, even if you're not good at, like, you don't have an option. You have to get better at it. For example, selling, like, I never did any sales, ever. Like, I was doing machine learning and distributed systems and whatnot. But I've come to now realize that, okay, that is something that I enjoy that I think I can learn and get better at. And everything I did before, actually, even the engineering mindset helps with sales because it's just a process. So, we kind of assumed our roles when we just had too much on our plate, and we're like, "All right, you'll do this. I'll do this. Okay, fine." And then, we just talk about it, and then, all right, we keep doing it, and then now it just becomes a routine.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, how has your team grown?
\n\nMONIK: Well, we've been two of us now, and we're hiring for a software engineer right now. So, we've been very lean. And I think...and this is also to something that Sam Altman said. I think it was him or I don't know who said that but, you know, you'll probably see the first one-person billion-dollar company.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I think it was, yeah.
\n\nMONIK: And I think there is some truth to it. Like, I don't know about billion, but, like, maybe a couple of million, a couple of hundred million, like, that might happen sooner. Because we've always tried to stay very, very lean, and I think we've relied on using technology wherever possible. But yeah, that's not to say...we still need people to build. And we are looking for a software engineer because, at some point, there's only so much we can do.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. So, what would make someone a good fit for your team in that software engineering position? What are they coming to the table with?
\n\nMONIK: Everything, I wish. No, I mean, there are some exceptional people. And I think that's exactly what we're looking for is engineers with a founder's mindset because a founder's mindset is always like, you know, give us all the information. We'll make the decisions and figure out like, you know, what needs to be done. And someone who's, of course, exceptionally skilled at technology, at writing code, at building software, but also at understanding like, you know, what to build. I think that is, like, a killer combination and that is what differentiates, like, a great extraordinary engineer from anybody else.
\n\nCHAD: Well, especially since it's going to be the second developer [chuckles], you're going to have high needs and expectations for that.
\n\nMONIK: And with startups, right? It's always a little bit of chaos, and it's people who thrive in that chaos. And that's the thing, right? I've worked in, like, a bunch of startups that actually went on to become unicorns. I worked at Turing.com, which I think is...$4 billion, something like that now. But when I joined, there were, like, you know, just 10 people. And every company has problems, you know. And there's always this chaos that ensues, you know, at every stage. But there are some type of people who, like, thrive in that. They just love it. And there are some people who complain about it.
\n\nI think the ones who complain about it lose that opportunity to grow, and they don't have the mindset to see opportunity in it. And I think those are the people who are absolute amazing, you know, future founders, you know, or even, like, great founding engineers are employees like that because they like that challenge, you know. It's like, this is wrong. Let me go fix it.
\n\nCHAD: Right. And the reverse is also true. There's a point in a company's life cycle where they need a different kind of person that is more, like, stable [laughs].
\n\nMONIK: Well, I don't know. I think I disagree with that. I think, I mean, that's when the company, you know, plateaus. Like, if you bring in more people like that, you...really, like, what is a company? It's just a collection of really smart people. The fact that OpenAI is able to do what Google cannot over the span of six years is because they just do not hire people, you know, of certain caliber, certain mindset. They just keep them out. Again, that's their policy, or even some larger companies. I think the idea is to keep that mindset going and going. It is tiring, right? But it is what drives innovation. Like, that's just the nature of it.
\n\nCHAD: Well, if what you're describing sounds like someone who's listening, or if someone's in the automotive industry and wants to learn more, where can they do that?
\n\nMONIK: Yeah, they can reach out to me, you know, my email is monik@toma.com. So, they could get to us.
\n\nCHAD: And you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Mastodon at cpytel@thoughtbot.social.
\n\nMonik, thank you so much for joining me and sharing the story with me.
\n\nMONIK: Thanks, Chad. This was great.
\n\nCHAD: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks so much for listening and see you next time.
\n\nAD:
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Sponsored By:
Founder Amy-Willard Cross discusses the mission and operations of Gender Fair, the first consumer rating system for gender equality. Gender Fair aims to measure and promote gender equality within consumer-facing companies by utilizing data and the UN Women Empowerment Principles. Amy highlights the importance of transparency and data-driven insights to create social change, emphasizing that gender equality in corporate practices benefits not just women but overall fairness in the workplace. Gender Fair evaluates companies across five categories: women in leadership, employee policies, diversity reporting, supplier diversity, and philanthropy for women.
\n\nAmy also shares how Gender Fair has incorporated technology to increase its impact, including an app and browser extension that allow consumers to easily access company ratings on gender equality. These tools enable users to make informed purchasing decisions based on a company's gender equality practices. The app features functionalities like barcode scanning and logo recognition to provide real-time information about products. Amy emphasizes the significance of making gender equality data accessible and actionable for consumers, believing that collective consumer power can drive corporate accountability and fairness.
\n\nThroughout the conversation, Amy discusses the challenges and successes of building Gender Fair, the importance of leveraging economic power for social change, and the role of technology in facilitating gender fairness. She also touches on the broader impact of Gender Fair's work in promoting fair business practices and the potential for future expansions, such as a B2B database for procurement.
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel, and with me today is Amy-Willard Cross, the Founder of Gender Fair, the first consumer rating system for gender equality. Amy, thank you so much for joining me.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Well, I'm very happy to be talking to robots, giant and small.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] We'll try not to smash into each other too much on this show. I think we probably have a lot to learn from each other rather than conflicting.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: I think so.
\n\nCHAD: Let's just get started by digging in a little bit to what Gender Fair actually is in terms of what we mean when we say a consumer rating system for gender equality.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: It's about data. So, I was originally a journalist. I've written for a living my whole life: books, magazines, articles [laughs], you know, radio shows. I wanted to do something to promote equality in the world. And I realized that data is one way that you can want to have commercial value. Data has value that isn't, like, just blah, blah, blogging, and also, data can create social change.
\n\nSo, I decided to do something like, you know, we know fair trade has created great change as has, you know, marine stewards certified. And also, I was inspired by something that the Human Rights Campaign, the LGBTQ organization, does, which is called the Guide to Corporate Equality. So, our goal is to measure how companies do on gender and then share that with the public.
\n\nAnd I didn't just make this up. We use a set of principles called the UN Women Empowerment Principles, which look at eight different sort of areas of an organization. And so, we created metrics that are based on these UN Women Empowerment Principles and also based on what is findable in the public record. We rate consumer-facing public companies, you know, like Unilever, Procter & Gamble, the shampoos that you use, the cars that you buy, the airplanes you ride on.
\n\nAnd we look at five major categories, such as, like, women in leadership. We look at employee policies like parental leave, and flex time, part-time, summer Fridays. I'll be curious to know what you do at Giant Robot. I bet you have good ones. And then, we also look at diversity reporting. Our company is upfront with their attempt to bring more diversity into the workforce and also supplier diversity. I don't know, are you familiar with supplier diversity, Chad?
\n\nCHAD: I am because we often are a supplier, so...
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: You are. So, when they ask you if you're diverse...but one way companies, especially the big companies that we rate on this public database, they can make a big impact by trying to buy from women and minority-owned businesses, right? When procurement spending is huge. That's a metric that people may not know as well, but it's one that I would encourage every business to undertake because it's not that expensive. And you could just intentionally try to move capital into communities that are not typically the most rewarded.
\n\nThe last category that we measure is philanthropy for women, and that's important. People say, "Well, why do you measure philanthropy?" One, because the amount of philanthropy that goes to women and girls is 1.5% of all donations, and it used to be 1.8. So, pets get more money than women. I don't know how that makes you feel, Chad, but it doesn't make me feel very happy. I mean, I suppose if you're Monster Beverage and you don't have any women clientele, one, it's okay if you don't score well on your gender metrics; just meet the basic fairness. But maybe Monster Beverage doesn't have to donate to the community of women.
\n\nBut if you're making billions of dollars a year selling a shampoo, I would sort of think it's fair to ask that there's some capital that goes back the other way towards the community of women. So, that's the measurement. So, we could do it...and we do it for small companies like yours, too. I imagine your company would do well from the little bit I've talked to people on your staff. It sounds like you have a lot of women in leadership. And I don't know your policies yet, but I'm sure you...I bet in Massachusetts I know you have parental leave anyway in the state, but you're a more progressive state.
\n\nBut I think this is something that all of your listeners can benefit from is putting a gender lens on their operations because a gender lens is a fairness lens. And it includes usually, you know, this includes people who are not just all the same men, White men. So, it helps all businesses sort of operate in a more fair way to put a gender lens on their operations. And it's not hard to do.
\n\nCHAD: So, one of the things that jumped out at me, in addition to just the Gender Fair mission, as I was learning about Gender Fair, is that you have an app and a browser extension. And so, that's part of why you're on the show, not only do we care about the impact you're having.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: That's right. Yeah [laughs].
\n\nCHAD: But you're a tech company. Did you always know as you got started that you were going to be making an app and a browser extension?
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Well, yes, that was the beginning because you have data. You have to make it used. You have to make it available, right? Personally, I like to see it on packages. But yes, we've had two iterations of the app, and I'm sure it could always get better and better. The current one has a barcode scanner and, also, it can look at a logo and tell you, "Oh, this soda pop is not gender fair. Try this soda pop, which is gender fair." And it can make you a shopping list and stuff like that.
\n\nBut, you know, tech is only good if people use it, so I hope they do. I mean, the idea is making it more accessible to people, right? I would like to have it as a filter, some easy tech. We've talked to big retailers before about having a filter put on online shopping sites, right? So, if I can choose fair-trade coffee, why can't I choose gender-fair shampoo?
\n\nI like it when people can use technology to create more fairness, right? If this is a great benefit to us if technology can take this journalism we do and make it accessible and available and in your hand for someone, you can do it in the store, for Pete's sake. You could just go on the store shelf, and that's pretty liberating, isn't it? When you think of it. It should be easy to know how the companies from which you buy are doing on values that you care about. So, I never really thought of it as a tech. I wish it was better tech, but, you know, I'd need millions and millions of dollars to do that.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] Had you ever built in any of your prior companies, or had been directly responsible for the creation of an app?
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: No, but I did actually once when I worked at the major women's magazine in Canada, I did hire the person who created the first online sort of magazine in Canada, and she made money, so I felt good about that. I plucked her from...she was working as sort of tech support at the major...what do you call those? Internet providers in Canada. But no, I had not, and so I relied on experts.
\n\nI had a friend who was on the board of Southby, and he helped me find a tech team. I went through a few of them and, you know, it's hard to find. Like, where do you go and find people who will build something for you when you're a novice, right? As a journalist, I don't really know anything about building technology, and I certainly wasn't about to start at my age. It was definitely a voyage of discovery and learning, and I don't think I really learned much coding myself.
\n\nCHAD: That's okay.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: That's okay [laughs].
\n\nCHAD: But was there something that sort of surprised you that you didn't anticipate in the process of creating a digital app?
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Oh gosh. Well, you know, of course, it's difficult, and there's lots of iterations, and there's lots of bugs. And in every business, mistakes are part of what people...in the construction industry, they'll tell you, "Mistakes are just going to happen every day. You just have to figure out how to fix each one." But, no, it's a difficult road. So yeah, I wish I could have coded it myself. I wish I could have done it myself, but I could not. But yeah, it's good learning.
\n\nAnd, of course, you know, I think anyone who's going to start building a company with technology...if it were me now 10 years ago, I would have actually done some coding classes so I could just even communicate better to people who were building for me. But I did learn something, but not really enough. But it's a very interesting partnership, that's for sure.
\n\nCHAD: And there is a lot of online classes now...
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Right [laughs].
\n\nCHAD: If someone is out there thinking, oh, you know, maybe that's good advice. And there's a lot of opportunities for sort of an on-ramp, and you don't need to become an expert.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: No.
\n\nCHAD: But, like you said, even just knowing the vocabulary can be helpful.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: I think that would have been useful. Yeah, definitely useful. But I definitely, like, you learn a little bit as a text-based person. You learn the rigor of just sort of, like, you have to think in ones and zeros. It either is or isn't. That helps. I learned that a little bit in working with tech devs. The last version we did actually white labeled off of someone who had created a technology to do with...it was to do with building communities online. And their project failed, but it had enough backbone that we were able to efficiently build what we needed to on top of what they built.
\n\nCHAD: Oh, that's really...was it someone you knew already, or how did you get connected?
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Yes, they knew one of our partners in New York. We tried it first as a community project. It didn't really work. And then, we realized it could actually hold our data at the same time. So, my first iteration of the app was different. But yeah, anyway, we've built it a couple of times, and I could build it even more times...
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: And make it even better and better.
\n\nCHAD: So, on the sort of company side of you've worked with companies like Procter & Gamble, MasterCard, Microsoft, do you find it difficult to convince companies to participate?
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: What we do is data journalism. We don't contact the companies. We have researchers. We have journalists go and look through the SEC data and CSR reports and collect the data points on which we measure them. So, no one has to cooperate with us to get the data. It's journalism. It's not opt-in surveys, which is a very common...when I first started, no one was measuring women, and now there's lots of different measurements. And they're often pay-to-play surveys, so they're not really very valuable. Ours is objective and fully transparent journalism.
\n\nBut then afterwards, our business model how we typically used to pay for this is that companies that did well on our index were then invited to be quote, "certified." And this was a business model that was sort of suggested to us at the Clinton Global Initiative, to which I belonged in 2016. And they loved what we were doing, using the free market to drive gender equality. Because, you know, our whole point is that women and people who care about women and equality, we have a lot of power as consumers, or as taxpayers, or as tuition payers, or as donors to nonprofits. And whenever you give money to an organization or a company, you have the right to sort of ask questions about the fairness of that organization. Well, that's our whole ethic, really.
\n\nI answered that question and came around to a different idea, but yes, no. So, the companies do participate to be certified, and some of them are interested and some of them are not, and that's fine. We do projects with them sort of like when we...we've talked about MasterCard, and we did a big conference with them in New York. This is pre-pandemic. And then, we did a big, global exhibit with P&G, and Eli Lilly, and Microsoft at TED Global, which was very fun. It was all about fairness. And it was great to talk to technologists such as yourself. And we made a booth about fairness in general, not just about women. And we had a fairness game, and it was very interesting to just discuss with people.
\n\nI think people like to think about fairness, right? I don't know if you have children, but little children get very interested in the idea of what's fair very early on. Yeah, so some companies participate...now we have companies...we do some work in B2B procurement which is something that your listeners might be interested in thinking about is that just, like, supplier diversity. If I were purchasing your services, your company services, I would ask about the gender metrics of your organization. I already learned they're quite good.
\n\nSo, big companies buying from other companies can put a gender lens on their B2B procurement. And so, that's a project we're doing with Salesforce, Logitech, Zoetis, Andela, which is another tech provider, and Quinnox, which is a similar sort of tech labor force, I believe. And so, we're going to be releasing a database about B2B suppliers. Actually, I should make sure that you get on it. That's a good idea.
\n\nCHAD: Yes.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: That's a good idea because then it's going to be embedded in procurement platforms because this is a huge amount of money. It's even probably more...it could be more money than consumer spending, right? B2B spending. So, I'm excited about working with more companies on that to help promulgate this data and this idea because it's an easy way to drive fairness in a culture. When the government isn't requiring fairness, at least large companies can. And in some countries, actually, the government requires its vendors to do well on gender. Like, Italy now has a certification for gender, the government does, and companies that do well are privileged in RFPs and also get a tax deduction.
\n\nCHAD: I don't want to say something incorrect, but I think the UK has, like, a rule around equity in pay...
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Yeah, absolutely. You're absolutely correct.
\n\nCHAD: And yet they don't have equity in pay, the data shows.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: That's right. And we don't have that in the United States. It's voluntary in the U.S. We measure that, actually, too. That's seven points over a hundred points scale is whether they, one, publish the results of their pay study. In the U.S., though, we do it in a way that isn't rigorous as the way they do it in the UK. In the UK...you're great to remember that, Chad, in the UK, I mean, I wish my government did that.
\n\nIn the UK, companies report on the overall salaries paid to men and the overall salaries paid to women. So, that means if, you know, all the million-dollar jobs are held by men, it shows very clearly, and all the five-dollar jobs are held by women, it shows very clearly there's an imbalance. And in the United States, we just say, "Oh, well, is the male VP paid the same as a female VP?" That's sort of easier to do, right?
\n\nCHAD: When we've talked with some larger companies about different products we're creating or those kinds of things, sometimes what I hear is they're looking for big wins, comprehensive things. And so, I was wondering whether you ever get pushback or feedback that's like, "Well, not that your issue is not important, but it's just focused on one aspect of what our goals are for this year."
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Right. Yeah, that's always a hard thing because when I think about fairness to half of the population, it's a hard thing for me to think that's not hugely important.
\n\nCHAD: Yes.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: I have a really hard time, but yes, of course, we get that a lot. And, you know, quite frankly, when we did this B2B project with Logitech and Zoetis, they would ask their vendors, like, the major consulting companies and big companies, to take a SaaS assessment that we do. We have a SaaS product that private companies can take, or just instead of doing our journalism, they can just get their own assessment. And they were very, very reluctant to do this. That was just, you know, half an hour. It was a thousand-dollar assessment. And it took many months to convince these companies to do it. And that was their big customers.
\n\nSo, yes, it is very hard to have...what's the word? Coherence on what one company wants versus what a big company wants, and it's hard to know what they want. And it's, yeah, that's a difficult road for sure. And it changes [laughs].
\n\nCHAD: Part of the reason why I asked is because from a product perspective, from a business perspective, at thoughtbot, we're big fans of, like, what can be called, like, niching down or being super clear about who you are, and what you believe, and what you offer. And if you try to be everything to everybody, it's usually not a very good tactic in the market.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: That's right. That's right.
\n\nCHAD: So, the fact that you focus on one particular thing like you said, it's very important, and it's 50% of the population. But I imagine that focus is really healthy for you from a clarity of purpose perspective.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: That's right. But at the same time, now there's lots of...when I started in 2016, there weren't a lot of things in this space, and now there's many, many, many, many, many, many, so corporations that want to sort of connect to the community of women or do better for women. There's many different options. So, there's many flavors of this ice cream. Even though we're niche, the niche is very crowded, I would say, actually, and people are very confused.
\n\nI mean, I think I remember hearing from Heineken that they're assaulted daily by things to, you know, ways to support women in different organizations and events. And they said they took our call because we were different. But yeah, there's many competitors. But, I mean, that's the main thing. In any business, in any endeavor in life, one has to show one's value to the people who may participate, and that's a challenge everywhere, isn't it?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: But the niching down thing is...and interesting we hear a lot these days is that women are done. We've moved on from that. Now we care about racial equality, and we say, "That's a yes, and… We can't move on."
\n\nCHAD: Well, the data doesn't show that we've moved on.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: The data doesn't show that at all, and we're going way backwards, as you well know. So, I mean, actually, I don't know if you know, there's something called the named executive officers in public companies. Are you familiar with that? The top five paid people.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: They have to be registered with the government. Well, that number really hasn't changed in six years. That's where the big capital is, and the stock options, and the bonuses, and the big salaries. So, to me, that's very important that I would like, you know, rights and capital to be more...well, I want rights to be solid and capital to be flowing. And so, that's what we hope to do in our work.
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\n\nCHAD: So, going back to the founding of Gender Fair, when did you know that this was something you needed to do?
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: I wanted to serve, you know, you want to be useful in life. And I wanted to do work in this field that I care so much about. As I said, I think I told you I started doing journalism before, and I realized anyone could take the journalism, and they could, you know, Upworthy would publish things we would create and then not pay us for it. And I thought that's crazy.
\n\nBut it's interesting talking to my husband. My husband's, like, a very privileged White guy. And I remember he said something to me very interesting. He said, "You either have power, or you take it." And he said, "Women have all this power." So, he helped me understand this. Like, you know, I think sometimes as women or communities that are underserved, you start thinking very oppositionally about what you don't have. But at the same time, you can realize that you do have this power.
\n\nSo, what we're trying to do with Gender Fair is remind people they have this economic power, and they can use it everywhere, you know, in addition to our consumer database. I told you that we're doing a B2B database this year. And we also...I think next week I'm going to release a database of 20,000 nonprofits looking at their gender ratings. That was done as a volunteer project by Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology if you know them. So, yeah, this is an ethic that you can take everywhere in your life is you have this power, even as a consumer. Chad, even in your little town, you can ask your coffee shop if they pay fair wages. Like, this is just a way of looking at the world that I hope to encourage people to do.
\n\nCHAD: Along the journey of getting started, I assume you ran into many roadblocks.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Mm-hmm.
\n\nCHAD: Did you ever think maybe this is too hard?
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Oh yes. Well, not in building. In building, you're very optimistic, you know, it's just like when you're writing your first book. You think it's going to be a bestseller. Like, you build something, and you think the whole world is going to use it right away, and you're going to...I did have a great...when I first launched, I had a wonderful, I had, you know, press in Fortune. I had Chelsea Clinton. I had big people writing about us. Melinda Gates has written about us many, many times.
\n\nThe fact that...well, I've always wanted to build, like, a consumer revolution of women, and I'm going to keep at it. But it's very daunting. It's very daunting when you're trying to move a boulder such as, you know, big institutions and companies that don't really want to change, and they're not motivated to do it. So, yes, those are my roadblocks.
\n\nIt's not creating the massive amount of change that I wanted to do. And I'm not going to give up, but, yes, it is very daunting, and it's very daunting to see how little people care. Some people don't care about it, but some people in power don't care about it. But I think if you asked, you know, regular women, they would say, "We would like fair pay. We would like equal opportunity. We would like paid parental leave." They would want all these things, and hopefully, together, we can fight for them.
\n\nCHAD: Well, and, like you said, the premise of what you're doing is you're focused on the power that you do have, which is the dollars that you spend with these companies. I think that's such a smart angle on this because especially for...it seems like the core in terms of the consumer-facing companies. That's so inherent in what this is.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: That's right.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, the angle of empowering consumers, and giving them the information, and leveraging the power that consumers have with these companies seems really smart to me...
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: That's right. If it works --
\n\nCHAD: As opposed to individually going to the companies and saying, you know --
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: "Please make it." Yeah. And some people would refute your use of the word empower because that implies that people don't have power. So, when I give speeches...I have a pair of beautiful gemstone red pumps, and I say it's the ruby slippers. We had this power all along. We just were not exercising it. But this power will only work, Chad, if it's done in the aggregate.
\n\nSo, our challenge is to reach the aggregate of American women. I have to, you know, I have to go reach 50 million women this year. That's my goal. Reach 50 million women with this message that we have the power in the aggregate to make change. And that's the only way this will work. If it's just one by one, it really doesn't.
\n\nWhen I first launched, I found when I showed the app to people on the lower end of the economic scale, like, you know, people in the cash register; they understood this more than middle-class women. They understood the fact that if all women come together and, you know, buy from this company or don't buy from this company based on how they treat women, they understood that as a collective power. Whereas middle-class women who don't have as many struggles didn't really groove to that idea as quickly, which I thought was very...to me, it was very interesting, you know, individuals feel more powerful on the higher end of the social scale. They may or may not --
\n\nCHAD: That is interesting.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Yeah. So, yeah, that's my goal. We'll see if I can do it. That's going to be my life's work, I think, Chad.
\n\nCHAD: How do you reach 50 million people?
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: I don't know. That's what I'm going to think about. You know, we're talking to different people about campaigns. We actually stopped the consumer work during the pandemic because it just, you know, everything changed. And so, now, this year, we're going back. I don't know; I mean, I guess if Ryan Reynolds tweeted about me, you know, that would help. If [laughs] anyone listening has any ideas how to reach 50 million women...no, maybe 3 million is what I need to create social change.
\n\nCHAD: I imagine that it doesn't just come down to spending money on advertising. One, you might not have that money.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: No. And that would be, you know, that also would be not in the ethics of what Gender Fair is, for example, right? That means I would be paying money to Facebook and basically Facebook, I guess, and Google. If you look at the major spends of nonprofits, they're advertising with these big tech giants. And so, we have...actually, we have some partnerships with large women's organizations, and I think that's the way we hope to spread that. And if I had money for advertising, I would want to spend it with other women's organizations, or women's owned media, or women influencers.
\n\nThere's another idea I talk about in my work I call the female domestic product, and so talking about how much money women earn or capital we control. And the more we can grow that female domestic product, the more we can achieve equality actually. I always say, in America, you get as much equality as you can pay for sadly.
\n\nCHAD: I was just about to say, "Sadly."
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Sadly, yeah. It's true. We still don't have the Equal Rights Amendment. A hundred years.
\n\nCHAD: Well, 50% of the population would say, "Why do we need an Equal Rights Amendment [laughs]?"
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: All men are created equal, but yeah, it's quite astonishing. I don't know. Do you have daughter, too, or just a son?
\n\nCHAD: I have a son, and my younger one is non-binary.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Well, I'm sorry to be so binary. Excuse me.
\n\nCHAD: It's okay.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Well, interesting. And that's great, too, isn't it? Because we see how fluid gender is and their rights are just as important as a woman's rights. And these are, you know, women and non-binary people are often excluded from things. And so, we are all working together just to create fairness. I'm sure that the same thing happens in your family, too.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. I think fairness is one of those things. Sometimes equality is not necessarily the same as fairness.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: But I think, like you said at the top of the show, fairness is something that we seemingly learn very early on. But one of the ways that it comes across is I'm being. It is unfair to me, especially in little kids, at least with my kids [laughs].
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Of course, yes.
\n\nCHAD: That was the thing that they learned first and caused them the most pain. And it was very difficult for them to see that something was unfair for somebody else. So, I remember saying to my kids when they were little, "Fair doesn't mean you get your way."
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: That's right. Not fair.
\n\nCHAD: Right [laughs].
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: It's true. But then, you know, it's funny. When I talk about equal pay, I often say to people, "When I used to cut cakes for my children, I cut equal slices, and I didn't put them under the table," like, you know what I mean [laughter]? So, why are we so cagey about the slices of economic pie we give to one another?
\n\nI mean, there's no reason why pay has to be secret, right? If it's fair. You could easily talk to people. Well, you know, Chad gets paid more money because he's the CEO, and he does the podcast, and he has to talk to the bank, you know what I mean? So, you could easily explain that to people. And I don't know why we have to keep salaries a secret from one another. It seems very irrational to me and not really a part of fairness.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. Yep. That's something...so, all of our salary bands at thoughtbot are public on the internet.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Cool. On the internet. Oh, I'm very impressed.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. So, you can go to thoughtbot and use our compensation calculator. You enter in your location, what role you have.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Oh. So, you do it for other people. Oh, that's cool. That's a great service. And that was just some sort of tech that was sort of pro bono tech that you all built for the world.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, we created it for ourselves.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: And then you shared it.
\n\nCHAD: Mm-hmm.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Then you open-sourced it. Great. Well, I bet you have a lot of happy employees.
\n\nCHAD: I like to think so [laughs]. I do think that there is an inherent understanding of fairness. And when people ask how we do things at thoughtbot or how we should do things, I say, "How do you want it to be?" I think that guides a lot of how we do things and why a lot of stuff we do is just common sense. And it's not until ulterior motives or maintaining power comes into play where the people in power don't want to give it up. Because, like you said, people don't understand that by giving someone else a bigger piece, they think that that means their piece is smaller.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Right. Or they just think they deserve it. I was reading last night about succession planning and CEOs. And apparently, a lot of them just stay...oh, sorry, in big public companies, not in their own companies, they stay on way too long. And all these consultants are saying it's the four Ps, you know, position, privilege, pay, and then...I forget the other one. But one of them was jets. They don't want to give up their jets.
\n\nSo yeah, I think when you have things, it seems fair, and sharing them seems...giving up some of what you have seems unfair. But I do think humans can see fairness. But sometimes, when you have a lot, it's hard to see it. You're able to justify why it may be not unfair to people who don't have as much as you do. But anyway, I can't change human nature, but most people do understand fairness. I think you're right about that.
\n\nCHAD: Well, one thing...I noticed...so, you're a Public Benefit Corporation.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: Did you set out to be a Public Benefit Corporation from day one?
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Yes, you know, originally, when it came to how was I going to pay for this, the first part I paid myself with my own money. I hired MBAs. I hired researchers. I built the tech. And then, I wasn't sure how I was going to pay for it going forward. But I knew I didn't want to become a nonprofit because, in my mind, there are so many things that...there are so many problems that women have that need to be solved by nonprofit organizations, planned parenthood first among them.
\n\nLike, I don't want to take money away from women's organizations that help women fleeing abusive homes. So, I wanted to see if I could pay for this in the private sphere, which we've been able to do, and not have to seek donations because, really, I felt very strongly about not taking money out of that.
\n\nThat's part of the FDP, the part of the female domestic product, but the part that's contributed by people philanthropically. And there isn't a lot of philanthropic dollars going to women, as I mentioned before. So, yes, I knew definitely I wanted to be a Public Benefit Corporation. And there's no tax benefits to that, you know, I don't know if you are yet, but...
\n\nCHAD: No, it's something that we've looked at, but it's very attractive to me.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Right. And there's also the private version of it being a B Corp, which is also very useful. It's an onerous process. Public Benefit Corporation isn't quite as onerous, I don't believe. I mean, we're in Delaware and New York, but it just says that you're, I mean, we exist for the public good. I'm not existing to make millions of dollars. I'm existing to create social change. And some organizations don't want...are leery of working with us because we're not a nonprofit so that's to assuage them. Well, it's not really about...we're not about enriching shareholders. It's just a different way to pay for it.
\n\nBut yeah, I would encourage all companies to look into being a Public Benefit Corporation or do a B Corp assessment or a Gender Fair assessment. It helps them, you know, operate in a world that is increasingly more values concerned. Maybe 20 or 30 years ago, it wasn't so on the top of mind of many people. We were coming out of, you know, warring '80s capitalism. But nowadays, the younger people, especially, are very focused on issues of fairness and equality. So, I think those tools making business better that way are very useful.
\n\nCHAD: Well, I would encourage, you know, everyone listening to go check out the app, if you're at a company, to look at doing the assessment. Where can people do those things?
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Ah, well, yeah, I would encourage them to do all those things. You're right, Chad. I would encourage you to download the app and check some of your favorite brands. It's very simple. Do the paid subscription.
\n\nAnd then, if you're a company, you can do an online assessment. You just go Gender Fair assessment, and you'll find it. If you're a business and would like to participate in our B2B database, you can also do the assessment, or there's a coalition for Gender Fair procurement, where you can get information. We had the prime minister of Australia speak at our launch. It was quite excellent.
\n\nWe'll be launching our nonprofit. Actually, I think it's already online. It's called genderfair-nonprofits.org, if you want to see how your favorite nonprofits do. But, basically, we're here to help any business or organization do better on gender. And you can email me amy.cross@genderfair.com. And I would love to help anyone in their journey for fairness of any kind. Yeah, many ways to participate. Just go to genderfair.com or genderfairprocurement.com.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. Amy, thank you so much for sharing with us. I really appreciate it. And thank you for all the good that you're doing in the world with Gender Fair.
\n\nAMY-WILLARD: Well, I appreciate the way you're running your company in a very new, interesting, and apparently ethical way. Privately, I could look at your website and your career page and figure out how you're doing. But it sounds, to me, when I've talked to people, that you're doing very well. And I honor your curiosity about learning from others.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. Well, listeners, you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Mastodon @cpytel@thoughtbot.social.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks so much for listening, and see you next time.
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In this episode of the Giant Robots Smashing into Other Giant Robots (On Tour!) podcast, hosts Sami Birnbaum and Jared Turner are joined by Ishani Behl, CEO and Founder of Skillopp and Sustainr. Ishani, an instructional designer by trade, began her journey by creating online courses and eventually moved into sustainability, inspired by her exposure to startups at the UNDP. She founded Sustainr, a platform that connects sustainable brands, and Skillopp, which simplifies learning using AI, aiming to reduce information overload.
\n\nIshani discusses how her educational background and experiences shaped her desire to improve learning and sustainability. She emphasizes the importance of dejargonization and how Skillopp uses AI to make complex information more accessible. She also highlights Sustainr's role in connecting sustainable brands with resources and opportunities, fostering a community that emphasizes collaboration over competition. Her journey reflects a commitment to creating impactful, sustainable business practices and improving educational approaches through technology.
\n\nThroughout the conversation, Ishani shares her challenges in balancing multiple ventures, the importance of delegation, and her approach to building trust within her communities. She provides insights into the evolving landscape of e-learning and sustainability, emphasizing the need for personalized learning and effective communication.
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nSAMI: This is the Giant Robots Smashing into Other Giant Robots podcast, the Giant Robots on Tour series coming to you from Europe, West Asia, and Africa, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. If you have no idea about this Giant Robots on Tour series, then please make sure you listen to our previous podcast, where we throw random icebreakers at each other and we have fun naming the new series. So, make sure you don't miss out on that one. I'm your host, Sami Birnbaum.
\n\nJARED: And I'm your other host, Jared Turner.
\n\nSAMI: And with us today is Ishani, CEO and Founder of Skillopp, which simplifies learning to amplify performance through AI, and Sustainr, the Fiverr for sustainable brands. We are so delighted to have you with us, Ishani, today. We're going to get more into depth and into detail exactly where you're at and what you're doing at present. But I always like to go back to the start with my guests because there's always a journey and a story about how they got to where they are. Would you give us some details about how you got to the place you are today?
\n\nISHANI: Definitely. It's great to be on this. I'm delighted to also kind of share my story. It's been quite a journey. It all started a few years ago. I'm an instructional designer so that basically means that I design online courses for a living. So, if you see those ads on Instagram, "Hey, come to my masterclass," what I basically do is that I help in designing the whole course from the beginning but in a much better way.
\n\nI guess this whole journey of Sustainr and Skillopp really started after I graduated. So, I went to King's College, and I pursued a degree in liberal arts, after which I worked at UNDP. And I was exposed to this world of sustainability and all these really cool startups that were coming up in this space. And I thought to myself that this is such an interesting and innovative field to be in.
\n\nIn every single startup that, you know, you would really do research around, you would just find these really interesting bits of information that you really didn't know. And I think that the business models per to se is also kind of like a way to emulate how you can live your own life in a much more efficient manner. That's why sustainability is called sustainability for a reason so that you can really sustain your livelihoods for a much longer amount of time.
\n\nI think just building upon that, when the pandemic started, I really thought of doing something around this. And we kind of created a community of practice, so to say, of just sustainable brands around the country, in the UK and India. We started connecting them with various opportunities, so it sort of became like a Fiverr [laughs] of sorts where we would kind of connect them to various kinds of opportunities that would help them grow.
\n\nI think when I went back to London for my master's, a lot of people in the faculty really liked the idea. And they were able to provide us with some funds, and we won a number of competitions. And that really led to the beginning of Sustainr, and we currently have around 40 brands on our platforms. We keep on having a lot of collaborations. We've also raised grants for a few startups as well. This idea of really merging learning with the community created impact, and I had no idea about that.
\n\nAnd I think when I started creating courses as well for other brands and other companies, this whole idea of Skillopp also emerged as well, where we really took into account one very important concept, which was dejargonization. Now, I'm not too sure if you're aware about this, but there's this very big problem that's happening in the world right now. It's called the information overload.
\n\nIf you think about it, every single time you open, you know, some piece of content, or a reel, or anything, you see so many words that you just don't understand whether it's Web3, crypto, Bitcoin [chuckles], whatever it might be. So, what we basically did in that case through Skillopp, which was this new vertical that we created, we basically simplified content through using different AI tools. And that would really help automate digital learning and communication in organizations. And we've currently worked with the top MNCs in the world as well.
\n\nThe whole idea, in a nutshell, in terms of my life so far, has really been around how exactly you can design content in the most simplest way possible. How do you dejargonize it? And also, how do you create impact in the sustainable space? Because that is one key area that I think can really teach us so much about our own lives and can create so much of impact given the current climate crisis as well.
\n\nJARED: That was a great intro. Thank you. You're working on two businesses. Are you still studying, or you finished studying now?
\n\nISHANI: I finished studying.
\n\nJARED: You finished. So, I guess you were studying while you were working.
\n\nISHANI: Mm-hmm.
\n\nJARED: But now you're working on two. So, how did you or how do you balance all of that? And how do you choose what to prioritize when they probably both seem just as important?
\n\nISHANI: I think it took me some time to figure that out. It's not easy. I'm somewhat of an overthinker. So, it just so happens to be that when you think about several problems that your business is facing, you know, whether it's, you know, people; it's sales; it's operations, it just really makes you really flustered, and, you know, you're unable to figure out what do I exactly prioritize. One thing that really helped me was just reflecting on the business models and what I was up to, as well as what exactly deserved the amount of priority that it needed to.
\n\nSo, what really ends up happening is that I think there's a lot of reflection on how do you delegate tasks, and that's how I exactly manage two businesses. I really believe in this whole concept that, as an entrepreneur, everybody looks at you and everyone's like, "Yeah, you must be doing it all," right? Like, the marketing, the sales, especially in the beginning.
\n\nBut I believe that when you learn the art of delegation and just kind of letting go and surrendering that, okay, no, you know, I have a team who's handling this aspect of the business, and I should not worry about it, you automatically can start focusing on other aspects. And I think that's how I started prioritizing. I divided the tasks into whatever really received utmost importance in the beginning that was easier to do, and then, you know, you sort of get the hang of it.
\n\nI'd also like to add to the fact that I think we don't talk about this really often but look at, like, our moms, right? Like, they handle a household and their work at the same time, and they can do it. So, you know, I really think to myself, there are so many people who might be handling more than that, then why can't I do it? I think just setting that motivation really, really helps. And you can then start figuring out how to delegate, how to prioritize. But I think mindset is key because if you don't have the right mindset, you won't be able to do it.
\n\nSAMI: As a father of four, that analogy really resonates with me in terms of juggling all those different balls at the same time. But I can imagine it's exhausting as well. But you touched on this concept of dejargonization, which I love because I think there is such a barrier to learning sometimes because humans take simple things and make them complex. And it sounds like, through your e-learning platform, you're taking complex things and returning them back to being simple.
\n\nI've seen you describe yourself as a bad learner.
\n\nISHANI: [laughs]
\n\nSAMI: What does that mean, and how exactly has that impacted you?
\n\nISHANI: In the beginning, the reason why I pursued education, I guess, there was this very rebellious instinct that I had in mind. When I was in school, it was so different. I was told to especially memorize certain formulas in math. And there was this really gigantic physics book that I had to learn and, you know, kind of memorize the formulas and understand the concepts, no pictures at all. And, you know, you just had to be perceived as, hey, you know, if you can memorize them and you can get good grades, you are really, really smart, but if you can't, then that basically means that you don't have any future. And that was the kind of mindset that I grew up in.
\n\nAnd I think I had this rebellious instinct that if supposing I couldn't, like, especially because in science, I was really, really bad. I used to hate those horrible textbooks. I was just like, how can somebody learn through this? And I was just like, no, I want to change this. I want to change the way people approach education and learning. And I started seeing this and this started becoming so relevant.
\n\nA lot of us today might perceive that they know certain concepts. But when we start having a conversation around that concept, there are so many misconceptions that are created because of these preconceived notions of how they were taught earlier about a certain concept as well in school, right? I guess my mission is to kind of eliminate that barrier of questioning concepts right in the beginning when somebody is learning and not being like, hey, you know, if I don't understand this word, if I don't understand this concept, I'm really smart. I'm going to figure it out.
\n\nI hate the Superman complex that people have these days. I know it all. I really, really know it all. And I'm just like, well, do you? This is one of my favorite slogans, like, if you can't teach it, then don't preach it. And [laughs] I think that I keep on following that slogan all my life that if I really don't understand anything, I have to figure out a way to understand it, and that doesn't mean that I'm dumb or stupid. I have to figure out a way in terms of understanding that concept.
\n\nThat's why I call myself a bad learner because I used to hate how I was taught in school. And I was just like, you know, I'm not going learn like this, either I have to change the way I think and I learn. That's the only way that I will do that. And that's why I got into education. I was just like, I really want to take some revenge on this [laughs].
\n\nSAMI: I love that. That really resonates with me. I would also, in that sense, I would describe myself as a bad learner, but someone with a good memory, especially when I didn't understand things. I'll never forget when I was studying for my degree. I actually wasn't far from you. I think you were in King's College.
\n\nISHANI: Oh.
\n\nSAMI: Well, I was down the road in LSE.
\n\nISHANI: Oh, nice. Neighbor.
\n\nSAMI: Yes, I remember studying for my degree there, and there was one topic I was studying that I just couldn't understand and get my head around. But there's kind of a way to play the system, and that is memorizing things. So, I promise you, I memorized sentences. I could not tell you what they meant, but I used them in my exam. It was kind of cheating, in a way, but it was kind of also working with the system that I had in front of me. But it sounds like if I had something like an e-learning platform at that time, that is something which could have explained things properly and played into strengths that I might have had that I wasn't able to discover in the regular system.
\n\nDo you see e-learning platforms...and I've seen this actually from people who, let's say, are studying for their A levels in this country now, which is exams they do ages of, I think, 17 or 16. A lot of them are turning to YouTube, and they learn from YouTubers, and there's other platforms. Do you see e-learning as something which could replace more conventional education, either high schools, degrees? Is that where you see the industry heading?
\n\nISHANI: Well, I wouldn't say that e-learning can replace educational systems. I think, at the end of the day, when it comes to e-learning platforms, as well, I really love them. But I wouldn't say that they're as personalized as you would think. They could be. And the number one element to learn well is to personalize learning because everybody is different. Everybody thinks differently. Everybody has a very different process of thinking. Some people learn in a very auditory way. Some people like listening to podcasts like the ones that you're conducting. Some people like learning visually. Some people like learning kinesthetically.
\n\nSometimes what I believe is that not every single e-learning platform can do justice to every single style of learning or every single individual. And I'm pretty sure there are 500 more styles of learning that we in the L&D space still haven't discovered yet. I think what e-learning can do and how we can really benefit from e-learning is using it as a tool. We should not depend on e-learning platforms completely, like, in terms of even, like, just simplifying content or, like, figuring out a way in terms of writing an essay. That is something that perhaps we can use it as a tool to brainstorm upon, that it makes our lives much easier.
\n\nAt the end of the day, AI, artificial intelligence, as well as all these e-learning platforms that are coming up, it's a way in terms of conducting the menial tasks that you really didn't want to do so that you can focus on the big stuff. I think if we start approaching e-learning in that way and, you know, also figure out how to set limitations in terms of how we don't depend on it; we will not have, like, a crisis in terms of how we're looking at social media today, where everybody is just addicted to their phones.
\n\nJARED: Ishani, I wanted to ask specifically about your product, Skillopp. Who's your target market? You know, we've talked a lot about sort of learners from an education perspective, like high school, university. Are you targeting them, or is it more business, commercial users? And how did you discover that market as well?
\n\nISHANI: Great. So, I think, again, it really happened to be upon chance. So, like, a little bit more about Skillopp. It's not exactly how a product works. We work in a much more adaptable and flexible manner in terms of how you can use AI to simplify content as well. We started working with a number of corporates through word of mouth, I guess, and we created a lot of impact in that space.
\n\nAnd what we did was that we would figure out what would be the best platforms and tools that they can deploy. And we would put them onto one system, and we would develop that for them. So, how it would really end up working would be, like, this very flexible product that we would make as per the needs of the corporate itself, rather than making something of our own, which could not be flexible or adaptable to what the corporation wanted as well. It's really cool because we just end up building on various kinds of innovations.
\n\nLike, recently, we would also be open to various forms of different tech partnerships in terms of building those systems as well. So, it just ended up creating this collaboration over competition mindset and where everything happened to be, like, this win-win formula when we would build products. And we would kind of go to these businesses as a service, and we would end up building a product for them. I think, that way, it was very interesting to see how that journey really happened. And I think it was just through experimentation, and I really experimented a lot.
\n\nWe do also have, like, some developers who are working with us. And we would kind of go out of our way to figure out what the company or the corporate really wants. And we started building upon these products and then we were able to, like, deploy those particular needs of what that organization wanted in terms of what kind of product they really wanted and how they wanted to simplify content. So, it was, like, as if it was made by them, not by us. And it provided that sense of pride within the organization that, hey, you know, this is something that I really built.
\n\nThis whole concept just got extended through word of mouth to various different organizations and institutions. But, like, through some random way, and I always thought that I'm going to work with an institution first, it just so happened to be working in the corporate space, which is very strange. But I guess that's how entrepreneurship, to a certain extent, works with so much of experimentation that went on.
\n\nJARED: You're using generative AI as part of that to identify, let's say, jargon and then simplify that language. And one of the problems that generative AI has is what they call the hallucination problem, where it sort of makes stuff up that's not true. Have you encountered that? And I'm curious of any ways you're trying to tackle it.
\n\nISHANI: [laughs] So many times. I think AI it's like raising a baby, you know [laughs]. I always like to use that anecdote because [laughs], like, my experience in terms of, like, generative AI and AI, in general, it's always been, like, as if I'm bringing a baby up in terms of, you know, the machine learning aspect of it.
\n\nI think, yeah, we've encountered that quite a number of times. I think the best way in terms of also approaching this hallucination aspect is to kind of keep the task as specific as possible. If you want to teach somebody a little bit about sales and how do you exactly approach a customer in terms of closing in a deal, right? The way we can approach it. How do you simplify that process for, let's say, sales agents, right? It's to kind of really figure out what is that particular skill that the sales agent really needs help upon. So that if we try and specify it more, then the AI will really understand that, okay, I have to stick to this boundary. I really can't go out of that.
\n\nAnd making it as specific as possible really helped us in the process, and they were able to really upskill themselves in that one specific subskill. And we really, really worked on that conversation to such an extent that I even know the script of that conversation in terms of how a sales agent is supposed to negotiate and what would that script be for that particular industry and that organization. So, I think just specifying it as much as you can really helps. I think the hallucination effect happens so much, and that is one problem and also an area that I'd love to do more research in as well.
\n\nJARED: So, humans aren't going anywhere just yet.
\n\nISHANI: Yeah, not going anywhere. Actually, I really don't think so. A lot of people just keep on talking about AI is going to be...and I would...actually, this is a question that I'd love to ask both of you as well that do you think AI is really going to replace human beings? And everybody just keeps on talking about it, and I don't really think so. But what do you think?
\n\nJARED: Oh, gosh, we could have a whole episode just on this.
\n\nISHANI: [laughs]
\n\nJARED: There's a lot of parallels to the industrial revolution, where everyone said all of the machinery that was created was going to get people out of jobs, farming, and agriculture. And all it really did was shifted the demand for resources into different and slightly more specialized roles. I think we'll see a similar shift with AI. I do think, in time, there will be a significant portion of existing jobs that might go the way of AI overlords. But I'd like to think there'll always be a place for us little humans. What about you, Sami?
\n\nSAMI: I love this question. I think I've gone around the houses with this one. So, I've gone through different phases of like, oh my gosh, we're all going to die, and no one's going to have any more jobs, and we don't know what we're going to do. Even to the extent that I was really proud of myself that I learned on YouTube how to silicon my bathroom because I was adamant that AI could not do that. And so, if all else goes to pot, then at the very least, I have a skill that is valuable. And then, recently, I've seen the robots they're coming up with, so even that is not really going to work for me. It's really difficult to know. It's so difficult.
\n\nI find generative AI less compelling because of the hallucinations that we've spoken about. I see that as being far off, and a lot of it depends on the accuracy. Your baby analogy is great. Because the way we're used to interacting with computers is they give us responses that are kind of, like, binary. They're either right or they're wrong. It's like a green light, red light relationship. And when it comes to generative AI, you need to have that more personal relationship with the computer to have that conversation back and forward to get it where you want it to be.
\n\nSomething that has definitely come more to the forefront is discriminative AI, which is AI that can tell a difference between certain data sets. So, I see that taking off a lot more. So, for example, they're using it in, like, the medical sector where the AI can discriminate or tell the difference between certain brain scans in terms of understanding what might be an issue and what might not be an issue. So, that is very powerful. We've actually had that for quite a long time. But as computing power is becoming more affordable, as certain chips have become available, it's becoming more widespread, and we can harness that a lot more.
\n\nSo, discriminative AI, I think, is being very disruptive, and I think it will continue to be. Degenerative AI, I'm not sure because of the difficulties you've spoken about. But worst-case scenario, I will personally come and silicon your bathroom.
\n\nSo, the e-learning company that you have, that seems more familiar to me. And maybe it could be also potentially more familiar to some of our listeners because a lot of us have kind of grown up on YouTube. And I'm not comparing it to YouTube. I know it's a very different beast altogether. It's something which we could possibly identify with and understand more. The Sustainr aspect is a little bit more foreign to me. So, I'd love to get to understand more of what the Sustainr company that you have is all about and how it works.
\n\nISHANI: Like I said, I think Sustainr is this very interesting community that we built over the pandemic kind of touching upon this whole aspect of...and I think I'll also, like, come to this point in terms of how Skillopp and Sustainr are also kind of interlinked. It all, actually, technically speaking, started with the same problem: dejargonization.
\n\nWhat really happened was that when you also start a startup, especially in the sustainable space, what a lot of people, and when I talked to a lot of founders, especially the 40 brands that we have on our platform, it's like, "Ishani, I just don't know who exactly to approach. I don't know what...supposing I'm trying to find sourcing materials related to my business, supposing I'm trying to find individuals who can create content that is based on the concept of my business, I just don't see the results. And I don't see that people are able to understand and comprehend what I'm trying to talk about."
\n\nAnd I feel like this is also perhaps a cultural problem as well. I mean, for example, this has been my experience as well as a number of people in India. Because India is currently growing at a massive rate with the economy, as well as the startup boom that's happening. If you think about it, every single person's mindset is like, I really need to get this done. And that's why a lot of us are also very impatient.
\n\nSo, just thinking about how we're actually really thinking, we create, like, this impatience sort of situationship in our head. And we don't want to perhaps learn about new things. That stops us from learning and really digging deep because we're just like, no, no, no, we need to get this done, and we need to hustle. And there's a lot of that culture that's present over here because our economy is growing. Startups are booming. And there's lots of work to be done. Like, trust me, if you come to Bangalore or Bombay, you will actually feel that pressure [laughs].
\n\nSo, really thinking about that mindset, what really happens is that when somebody, especially in Southeast Asian countries or especially in a country like India, are looking for stuff for their sustainable business, a lot of people are like, "But what is sustainability? What is ESG? Is it just environment-related?" And, you know, just this communication style, so to say, creates a lot of impatience between both the parties, and that leads to mistrust. Miscommunication takes place. Orders don't come on time. There's a lot of problem and havoc. This also leads to a lot of mental stress.
\n\nThat's why we created this platform, so to say. And how it really works is like, it's like any form of connecting platform. We have various categories, as well, through which people can perhaps list their business on the platform in terms of that particular category, whether it's in sourcing, whether it's in fundraising, finance, or even marketing per se.
\n\nAnd we just kind of connect them just like how you would connect people over LinkedIn, like, through an intro. But we would be the ones who would be part of that whole connection scenario so that everybody knows that there is, like, this trusted platform being built between the two people and that they're not alone. There's somebody else who's also dejargonizing the communication flow.
\n\nAnd through that, what really happens, Sami, is that, like, the ideas of collaborations really grew because we would also have events. We would also have, like, these very interesting micro podcasts just for the community. And we would just post all of that content that would, A, build a lot of positivity amongst people in that space. And, you know, it would just kind of lead to more productivity in terms of different collaborations. Like, for example, we just tied up somebody who was creating straws using, I think, coconut or something like that to a chain of vegan cafes.
\n\nI think what really happened was that through this trusted platform, through a community, I think it really, really bolsters a lot of positive mindset. At the end of the day, like I said in the beginning, I really think that it's all about mindset, which really helps you take that action. And that, in a nutshell, is what Sustainr really does in terms of just connecting resources.
\n\nAnd now because we work with corporates as well, if supposing there are companies who want to pursue, let's just say, corporate gifting or something like that, we kind of help and initiate that process as well. So, it just becomes, like, this interlinked network where you can really just harness as many collaborations as possible so that you can also grow your business. You have time for experimentation. You have the safe space as well. And I didn't get an opportunity to be a part of any such community. So, I was just like, why not try and see how I can create one?
\n\nJARED: That's great. It sounds like education and trust, a huge part of this marketplace. How do you ensure you find trusted partners, and how do you convince the people on the other side of that marketplace to trust you or to trust your marketplace?
\n\nISHANI: So, I think in terms of building trust, it takes time. So, we're not a community, or we're not kind of, like, this platform; we're, like, telling everybody that, "Hey, you know, come on our platform. We'll ensure that your business will grow." I think, first of all, it's setting the right expectations in terms of what exactly you can really achieve out of this platform. B, I think what I really like to do is, like, a lot of phone calls, just talking to the founder in terms of how he started that particular idea of his. How did it really take place?
\n\nOur onboarding process is not like you have to fill in this very big, huge form, which will make you extremely bored, and you're just like, "Oh my God, this is, like, such a heavy task." Like, no, it's okay. There are some people in our team who also kind of talk to the founders and figure out what their story is all about. How did they really start that particular business? And if supposing what they're really looking for is something that we can really curtail to. Because we don't want to be also, like, a community where there's no value that we can add, then what's the whole point?
\n\nAnd I'm very hell-bent on setting those expectations so that when people actually join our platform, then, you know, it's not like, okay, like, this is going to be just spam coming on [laughs] your way in terms of all the other communities that we end up seeing. But it's so much more than that. I think it's kind of like when we establish that synergy that, all right, if this is what you're looking for, and these are the kind of people that we have, that's the only way that we kind of build that trust. And that trust-building, it takes time. It doesn't happen automatically; it takes a lot of time, and that's why we have a lot of events.
\n\nWe share a lot of bits of content around, let's say, the investing market in the space of sustainability and ESG. What exactly is happening out there? We even link with other communities to build more trust. So, supposing there's a better community than Sustainr, I'd be like, yeah, 100%, you should definitely look at those communities. Like, that tagline has always been collaboration over competition, and I think it's always worked in our favor.
\n\nWe would also end up collaborating with those communities around climate. In so many different aspects, that's helped us, and that's the way that you also kind of build trust, when you actually see those actionable steps being taken, and you see that taking place. But it's not something that I can, like, assure you, like, yeah, 100% the trust is built within that one day. It takes some time, but it happens over a period of time.
\n\nJARED: I love what you just said there about almost the long-term strategy of, you know what? If there's a better community, we're going to point you in that direction. That, to me, builds so much trust because the short-term option is to say, "Oh, okay, I've seen this. It's probably better for them, but that means they're not on our platform. So, that's not better for me." That is a tremendous way to build trust in a sort of long-term user base. So, I really love that.
\n\nSAMI: Yeah. I mean, we've only been, I don't know, we've been speaking for about half an hour, 40 minutes now, and I feel like I really trust you as well [laughter]. It's, like, rubbing off. This concept of, you know, demystification and simplifying things it shows this authenticity. And I think your personality comes across and the way that you run these businesses. And you're doing it in an incredibly genuine way. I think that really talks to people. I think people are looking, like, not for jargon. They really want authentic people they can relate to who are real human beings. And that's something which I think really comes across through speaking to you.
\n\nObviously, as a consultancy, myself and Jared we work within thoughtbot, and we work with people like yourself to really try and solve their problems and understand what their pain points are. And we can come up with solutions through design or development. What would you say is your biggest challenge? In either one of these businesses or as a whole, where's your biggest challenge at the moment?
\n\nISHANI: There are so many [laughs]. But I guess to start off with, kind of scaling it to a considerable level. But at the same time, you know, scaling requires investment, and scaling also requires some amount of time in terms of figuring out how exactly you want to grow your team, which also takes time. So, sometimes I feel like I'm in this catch-22 situation where I'm just like, if I do need investment, right? For example, scale or if I need investment to grow my team even further to get more clients so that I can target more projects, let's say for Skillopp; again, finding the right people it takes time. And I think that's something that I really also kind of struggle with. It took me a lot of time to find the right people for the projects that we're doing right now.
\n\nI think any tips would be great in terms of how exactly I can really do that so that even if supposing I want to raise investment and I know what I want to raise investment in, which is to grow the team, how exactly would I really approach that? Because I always feel like it's like this catch-22 situation.
\n\nJARED: Well, it sounds like you already have some clients, which is an infinite step up on most businesses that are starting out and trying to get investment. Like, the fact that you can prove you have revenue coming in is amazing. I mean, the typical things that investors want, like the investor deck, right? They're going to want to see your vision for the business. They're going to want to see your financials and the forecast. And then, it's a matter of finding the right investors as well because I guess there are so many out there. But I think you probably want to find one that matches your values around sustainability and dejargonization as well.
\n\nSAMI: Yeah, that's a great answer, Jared, actually. And, I think, just to add on top of that, this is where sometimes using a consultancy actually really helps. We see this a lot within thoughtbot, where someone is looking to get investment and wants to scale their team. But when you do that in-house, that comes with a lot of overheads.
\n\nSo, for example, you might need an extra person, your HR team, to handle new people, you know, being directly employed. Going to a consultancy and getting a third-party delivery partner allows you to kind of scale your team quickly, but also, descale that team quickly as well, so that it gives you that flexibility whilst you're in that more turbulent zone of, "Oh, I'm trying to scale, and I'm trying to get investment. And I'm not sure where my budgets are." Until you, you know, complete that scaling that you want to do, you get to a place where you're more stable. And then, actually, what thoughtbot does is helps people to then hire their own in-person team. But yeah, something like a consultancy can give that flexibility.
\n\nBut the way you describe this catch-22 situation is so common because what do I do first? I've got all these levers I could pull. So, I could pull the investment lever, or I could pull the, you know, extra resources lever. And then, there's like, you know, extra revenue lever as well. So, it's a really difficult problem. But definitely, we found, as a consultancy, that having that flexibility using third-party partners can be something which helps.
\n\nJARED: And I wanted to just ask, because I remember you were saying you're working with some developers, are they developers you've hired, or is that a third-party team you're working with?
\n\nISHANI: It's very similar to what you really mentioned. It's like a strategic partnership with a third-party team. But, again, I think finding the third-party team also, like, it takes a long time to find. But I think that I really liked the thought that you were really talking about as well earlier, where you were kind of mentioning that that whole catch-22 situation is super, super important to understand.
\n\nAnd I feel that instead of kind of going on LinkedIn and, like, posting so many, like, you know, these job descriptions with the overhead costs...I started learning that once I made that mistake. I think I learned so much about that. And I think that what you said it's also, like, reflecting on the fact that, okay, you really can see this through the strategic partnerships. And I think I'd love to be somebody or, like, you know, aspire to be someone who can, like, master that whole art of finding the third-party consultancies like you were mentioning, especially what you're doing as well. So, I think it's great, and thank you so much for the feedback and as well as answering question.
\n\nSAMI: It's been great to have you on. And doing a podcast like this it just gives us the opportunity to speak to people like yourself. If people want to reach out to you, do you have any specific place you'd like them to reach out?
\n\nISHANI: You can go on my LinkedIn, where you'll find a lot of stuff and links to what I do.
\n\nSAMI: Cool. So, I highly recommend our listeners to take a look at Skillopp, and take a look at Sustainr, and get to know all the great work that Ishani is doing.
\n\nFor our listeners, we're going to bring you lots more content like this. This was the first one in the Giant Robots on Tour series. Your only challenge before the next one is to hit the subscribe button to make sure you get this content directly as soon as it comes out because we've got some incredible guests lined up for you.
\n\nYou can find notes and a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks for listening. See ya.
\n\nOkay, before we sign off, a quick request. If you're enjoying Giant Robots on Tour, please drop us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Your reviews help us grow and reach more listeners, and we'd love to hear what you think. Thanks for being part of our journey, and stay tuned for more episodes.
\n\nAD:
\n\nDid you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.
\n\nMore info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.
","summary":"Hosts Sami Birnbaum and Jared Turner are joined by Ishani Behl, CEO and Founder of Skillopp and Sustainr. Ishani shares how her background in instructional design and experiences at the UNDP inspired her to create Skillopp, which uses AI to simplify learning, and Sustainr, a platform connecting sustainable brands. She discusses the importance of dejargonization, the challenges of balancing multiple ventures, and her approach to building trust and fostering collaboration within her communities.","date_published":"2024-07-03T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/5f76b0d1-dee1-4b94-a5ab-b97f0389d5e9.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":44562947,"duration_in_seconds":2370}]},{"id":"6ba02c8b-3721-48e6-a218-dd256fad78eb","title":"531: Polished Podcasting with Mandy Moore","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/531","content_text":"Hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido chat with Mandy Moore, the mastermind behind thoughtbot's Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots and Bike Shed podcasts. Mandy shares some great insights on the technical aspects and the crucial role of editing in creating top-notch content. She stresses the importance of having a producer to handle the behind-the-scenes work, allowing the hosts to focus on delivering captivating content. Mandy also shares her personal journey into podcast editing, highlighting her resourcefulness and how her skills evolved over time. \n\nWill and Victoria also delved into the strategic advantages of podcasting for businesses, highlighting its effectiveness in helping thoughtbot build a community and establish authority as a company. Mandy discusses how a well-produced podcast can be a potent sales tool and can significantly boost a company's brand presence. They even touch on the future of podcasting, with Mandy pointing out how continuous podcast production can help solidify a company's reputation, even in uncertain times. The episode wraps with some practical advice for anyone interested in starting their own podcasts, emphasizing the need for passion, persistence, and a clear strategy.\n\n\nFollow Mandy Moore on LinkedIn. Visit her website: mandymoore.tech\nFollow thoughtbot on X or LinkedIn.\n\n\nTranscript:\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. \n\nVICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Mandy Moore, our long-time Podcast Editor and Creative Content Marketer. Mandy, thank you for joining us. \n\nMANDY: Thank you so much. \n\nVICTORIA: So, I'm excited to dive into the topic of podcast, and creative content, and strategies for companies that are maybe long-time listeners of the Giant Robots podcast who are just curious about why we do this podcast and what it does for us as a company. So, excited to get into that, but before we do, let's start with a fun question to get us warmed up. Mandy, is there anything fun, exciting going on in your world outside of work? \n\nMANDY: Outside of work, I spend a lot of time at my local dance studio doing a mixture of dance and aerial arts. It gives me something physical to do after my work days. It's an afternoon thing for me. So, I spend about one to two hours there. And it's really helped me overcome a lot of challenges in my life, dealing with a lot of trauma and other aspects of overall personal development and recovery. \n\nWILL: That's awesome. I normally would never know what you're even talking about, or whatever, but [chuckles] my daughter is into dance. So, every Tuesday, I take her to dance. She begs me to take her, so I take her. So, my daughter is three—about to turn four. And every time we go to dance, she begs us to let her do the aerial dance. Like, I don't ever try to tell her, \"Hey, you're too small,\" or whatever, but we're like, \"Let's wait on that one. And then, let's wait until you can do the dance and then get up there.\" But she is so excited to get on the aerial dance and to do that. So, for you, was it scary when you started doing it, or did you just jump right in? How was it? \n\nMANDY: I always jump right into everything, but it was hard at first. It looks like it shouldn't be that hard, but it takes a lot of strength. And I was in a much different place eight months ago than I am now. It amazes me the transformation and growth that I've been able to see in myself because, from the very beginning, my instructor encouraged me to video myself. So, I have beautiful videos of progressions. And I can't wait to get a little bit more confident with my own social media and start sharing some of the before and afters because I really want to inspire people. It's done wonders for me and my mental health. \n\nWILL: A lot of respect to you because I don't know if I could just trust, I don't know what you call it, but that ribbon, that material just to hold you. I don't know if I could do it. So, a lot of respect to you [chuckles]. \n\nMANDY: So, my instructor likes to point out a fun fact, and I'm going to butcher it. I think it can hold whatever a baby elephant weighs. It can hold up to three tons safely. \n\nWILL: Is it...I'm going to throw this...I'ma tie it in with Victoria. Is it kind of like...because I know with rock climbing, it's all about hand placement, especially if you're belaying. Are the mistakes when you are not paying attention, and you let go of one of the materials, or how does it work? \n\nMANDY: Mistakes happen when you think about it too much. And that is what I'm always working on is to just stop thinking about it and just doing it because I'm an overthinker, too. And when I start to think about it too much, then I get messed up. But your body knows. Your body adapts. And it learns after the exercise is over. So, in the evenings, after your exercises, that's when your body is, like, doing its internal magic and, like, memorizing your stuff. So, that's why when you go back, it gets easier each time because your muscle memory actually grows when you're on your downtime. \n\nVICTORIA: Oh yeah. Yeah, I was going to say about climbing...it's funny that you asked that question, Will, about, like, the things that actually hold you because people get that question in climbing, too, about the ropes. Like, are the ropes actually going to hold you? And once you're comfortable with it, you know that it can hold a lot more weight than you [laughs], but it still can be scary. And I've seen people in Joshua Tree doing aerial silks from a line that's been drawn across the tops of two boulders. So, super cool. There's a lot of crossover in the community, I think, between people who do that type of dance and who also enjoy climbing and being outside. So, I love it. \n\nAnd so, you make a really good point about how you learn and how information seeps into your brain. And maybe how do you see the world of podcasting and all the things you can learn from podcasting, like, how does that fit into, like, how you learn and how you think about the world? \n\nMANDY: You know, I've built my entire career on figuring things out, and just building memory, and repeating processes, and figuring out what people want. Because, to me, editing is more than AI can do at this time. \n\nWILL: Yeah. And I think you're super talented at what you do, so I just want to make sure that I tell you that. Like, you've done a really good job with us. I remember whenever I first had a conversation with Chad, I didn't know to what extent that being a podcast host with this podcast would be. But whenever he said, \"We have an editor who will cut some stuff, make you sound good,\" I was like, \"Oh, okay.\" \"Like, essentially, Mandy is doing the hard work for us.\" \n\nMANDY: [laughs]\n\nWILL: And so, I was like, \"I'm in. Let's do this.\" So, it's an art to do this. It's an art. How did you get started? How did you get the ball rolling to get to the point you're at right now? \n\nMANDY: I was scrappy. I go in time by how old my daughter is, and my daughter is almost 15. So, that's how long I've been doing this. Because I was a single mom and I was a waitress. So, at the time, I had a one-bedroom apartment, and I still had a laptop. And my neighbor didn't have a Wi-Fi password. So, I used my neighbor's Wi-Fi, and I started doing virtual assistant jobs. And I met a developer. He was like, \"Can you edit a podcast for me?\" And I was like, \"Yeah, I can totally do that.\" \n\nAnd I got off the call and started Googling what is a podcast. And this was back in 2010, mind you, so podcasting was new at that point. And so, I just learned it, and I did a decent job. And every podcast that he did, I got better and better. And then, he had friends, and it just kind of turned into, like, Mandy's the go-to for tech podcasting there for a little bit. And I, at one point, got a referral to thoughtbot, and I've been with you ever since. I think it's been going on five or six years now. \n\nVICTORIA: What's your first piece of advice for someone who's interested in starting their own podcast? \n\nMANDY: Get a producer. I prefer to be behind the scenes. So, I like to help other people shine. So, like, my goal as a producer is just to have the host show up and be the talent and say the interesting things. So, if you want to have the bandwidth to be able to do that, you know, let somebody else do that work who specializes it because you can really bring your full self to the table and do what you need to do as the host and have fun with it. \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And I think people either correctly estimate that it is a lot of work to edit your own podcast and to create the content, do all the marketing, invite people, plan great content. And it is much easier if you have help [laughs]. And you're probably going to have a better podcast that people want to listen to because it sounds good, and you might not want to skimp on that detail. \n\nMANDY: Yeah. The other thing I would say when you go to start a podcast is a lot of people are focused on equipment. And that can take you down a long rabbit hole and make you never start to actually record the podcast because you're too worried about all of the details. Get a microphone and go. You don't even need an editor. You can make yourself sound decent through tons of free software. Audacity is one of my favorite platforms to use to edit podcasts. It's been free and open source since I've started. \n\nWILL: Yeah. I love the advice, what you said, because not everyone...I don't want to do total assumptions, but majority of people fit in two camps. You have the people that want to be out front and chat and can connect with anyone. But you also have the people behind the scenes. So, I'm glad you said that because I think a lot of stuff...when people realize who they really are and what they're good at, it makes them so much better. I can't imagine doing a podcast and trying to edit everything and push it out. I think I'm decent at doing the podcast, and you make us so much better. So, I'm so glad that you said that about kind of just knowing your roles and what's your strengths and everything, so... \n\nMANDY: Absolutely. I find it relaxing to edit a podcast. Believe it or not, editing a podcast with software is kind of like putting a puzzle together. I was a kid that loved to sit down with puzzles. You know, it is true that once I come to kind of memorize waveforms, like, Will, I know when you're going to say, \"Um\" a lot of times before I even hear you say, \"Um\" because I've recognized your speech patterns and same with Victoria. I will be able to pick them out. And it's very interesting. That's a little-known fact from a producer standpoint [chuckles]. \n\nWILL: Well, that's actually really cool because I don't really talk about this much, but I'm originally from Louisiana, and so I have a thick Southern accent. And so, that was actually one of my fears about doing, like, a podcast. So, it's actually interesting that you're saying that you know the ums and, um, which I just did [laughs], but you know how to help us out with that. \n\nSo, yeah, that's actually...I think that was one of the things I have respect for you is that you break down the barriers for people to be better and not be so insecure. Because if you're from Louisiana, there are so many words if you look at it and you try to pronounce it, it's going to mess you up, like Atchafalaya, or Natchitoches, or so many of those words that you're like, you almost have to know the word and pronouncing is going to mess you up.\n\nMANDY: I call it...and I don't think anybody is a not smart person, but when I edit podcasts, like, the finished product comes out, I liken it to giving the speakers IQ points because the listeners hear the final, polished version. A lot of people start sentences three times over. They only hear the polished version. So, in essence, it's giving the speakers IQ points just to give them a little bit more, you know, of a leg up. \n\nNobody wants to really hear somebody bumbling around, but we all do it. We all get nervous. It's human nature to stumble and get nervous and let all those speech patterns out that show us as nervous. But that's what we're for is to clean everybody up. And I love getting to help people have that confidence to go because it's just like, \"Don't worry. I got you. Just go out there, have fun, and you're going to sound great.\" \n\nVICTORIA: And, in your experience, what kind of reasons for a podcast make the most sense for a business? Like, it's a common piece of advice if you want to build a community to start a podcast, but why is that? Or, like, when does it really make sense for you to start your own podcast? \n\nMANDY: I mean, you nailed the number one is the community. But, honestly, also, it's a great sales tool, especially if you're a customer with customers, and you're helping people network and expand the network. You're featuring the people. You're expanding the network broader than a community like in a Slack channel, say, or a message board because those are fine, too. \n\nBut putting your company out there and being authority and also giving people access to free content that is helpful to them can really help a business establish that trust in the market and be like, wow, they really take their time to put this out there. One of the things that I constantly still to this day hear people talk about is the thoughtbot Handbook, that was written years and years ago. And it was a beautiful piece of free content, and everybody still talks about it. \n\nWILL: Yeah, I agree. I think one thing about thoughtbot is the handbook. I still hear people talk about it, and it's referenced often. So, that's actually really good advice. What does success look like for you, like, six months now to five years? Where do you want to go? \n\nMANDY: I think, for me, I've been in the tech industry for a really long time. I've fallen into the background a little bit too much in that I used to produce a pretty popular podcast called Greater Than Code. And I needed to take a step back from that because, one, it was becoming pretty much a full-time job. \n\nYou know, content is in a really weird place. I've really been trying to pivot into the general content creation space because I do marketing as well, social media, design, and assets. I've designed my own website. I design my own graphics. So, just kind of letting people know that I'm kind of a one-stop, one-shot person. I do it all myself right now, and I have forever. The only thing I outsource is I have a transcriptionist who is a real person, which is a great selling point to a lot of clients of mine because I don't use AI. And I do have a person who goes over it with the human touch who is well-versed in the software developer lingo.\n\nMid-Roll Ad:\n\nAs life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust.\n\nWe provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what’s important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust.\n\nWe take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers.\n\nTake your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode.\n\nVICTORIA: What kind of trends do you see with podcasting and with the technology used to manage and produce podcasts? \n\nMANDY: I see podcasting, in general, be a come-and-go trend in this industry. It tends to be, you know, one of the things that businesses are excited to ramp up on. But then it's also one of the things that is the first to go when things get tough or busy or you need to allocate your resources elsewhere. Podcasting seems to be like a trend that I see coming, going with the economy.\n\nIt's actually very weird to bring it to mind now that you mention it because people love podcasts. But when things are unstable, it's almost like they see it as a perk, and it just becomes something that's easily let go. And that's why I think thoughtbot and the podcasts have been so strong is that they have been kept going no matter what in the industry. \n\nAnd thoughtbot has really become an authority in not just, you know, it started out as a Ruby podcast. And it very much has grown into a bigger startup, entrepreneurial, consultancy-driven show. And so, it just shows that when you stick in the game, what, we're 520-something episodes in now, that you really do have great things achieved. \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And it sounds like just, you know, having that persistence and just keep going, and if you've found a formula that works for you, you can really benefit from continuing to invest in it. I love that. And let's see, what tips do you give people on how to have more exciting conversations, more engagement? \n\nMANDY: I love when people just join the call and immediately hit record because some of the best parts of the conversations happen, and you're like, \"Oh, wait, we should have been recording that.\" Start recording and relax and have...The opening conversations that we started this conversation with, it's an icebreaker. It gets into some of your everyday background. \n\nAnd as hosts, one of the things that I told Victoria and Will to establish rapport with the audience to kind of start dropping a bit of the narrative. You talk about your story, and then the listeners become invested in you, and that's why they come back, too. It's great content all around, but they also really start to love the hosts too. \n\nWILL: Yeah, I agree with that because most of the podcasts that I do listen to it's mostly around the host and the way that they treat people. Because if there's a host that's very mean, aggressive, I'm probably not going to listen to them. And, honestly, that's just me, like, I'm not saying don't listen to them. But the hosts do make the podcast a lot of times. And I'm not saying that we make the podcast though, but...\n\nMANDY: [laughs] You do. \n\nWILL: [laughs]\n\nMANDY: It's the chemistry. You guys, I don't know if you know this, but I'm your biggest fan. Like, it's the chemistry. And it's The Bike shed. Fun fact: Joël and Stephanie, like, I told Joël [laughs]...when Joël took over from Steph and Chris, he had different co-hosts each week. And as soon as he had his episode with Stephanie, I said, \"Joël, it's Stephanie.\" \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And it can take a little while to get your dynamic between your co-host going. And other times, it happens right away, and it's very easy and natural. So, I love that for Stephanie and Joël. So, the idea behind a podcast like The Bike Shed, where it's two main hosts and they're coming up with different topics that they want to dive into, and sometimes they have guests but most of the time they don't, versus a show like Giant Robots where you're interviewing guests, what do you think about the content for each of those? Like, how do you kind of separate those in your mind and the direction content-wise? \n\nMANDY: Marketing and knowing your audience. So, the Giant Robots appeals to startups and entrepreneurs. The Bike Shed is more into the code and into the nitty gritty of software development, so they go into deeper concepts. But Giant Robots is more about talking to the people. It's more of an interview-style show. It's featuring interesting people doing really awesome things and, getting the stories out there and connecting. And that's why I love that thoughtbot has both podcasts. We've just started, what—Giant Robots on Tour—to cater to the EWAA region, which is super exciting. \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah and, for me, being an interview-style podcast gives me this opportunity to have these deep conversations with really interesting people that you wouldn't necessarily get into in, like, a normal networking event, right? \n\nMANDY: Right. \n\nVICTORIA: So, if you can think of a list of 10 interesting people you want to talk to, you should start a podcast.\n\n[laughter] \n\nMANDY: And if you can think of those people, a producer like me will also hunt those ten interesting people down for you and see if they'll talk to you because we can do that, too. \n\nWILL: That is the truth.\n\nMANDY: I've tracked some pretty cool people down. I'm pretty proud of my skills. \n\nVICTORIA: We are absolutely thrilled to have you with us here today, Mandy, and to be such a big part of our podcast, and super delighted to have you come out of the background and be on the show with us today and share your voice. Do you have anything else that you'd like to promote? \n\nMANDY: I'd just like to say that I am taking on clients. I would love to get into a general creative content role to utilize all my many skills that I've scrappily picked up over the years. It's hard to put into a resume. You can check me out at mandymoore.tech. \n\nWILL: It's not just podcasts, correct? So, if I wanted to try to become an influencer, could you help me with that? Like, what's the different areas that you could help me? \n\nMANDY: Oh, girl, yes. Let's make you an influencer, Will. Let's go. \n\nVICTORIA: I could see that for you, Will. \n\nWILL: I've thought about it, but it's a lot of work. So, that's a big thing, so...[laughs] \n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. I think that's really interesting to think about, Mandy. And I hope that people get a lot out of this episode when they're trying...if they're in this process of considering their own marketing plans, and podcast production, and other types of creative strategy, they might have to reach out to you.\n\nMANDY: Thank you so much for having me. \n\nWILL: Thank you for being here. \n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @will23Larry. \n\nVICTORIA: And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Check her out at mandymoore.tech. Thanks for listening. See you next time. \n\nAD:\n\nDid you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.\n\nMore info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.Sponsored By:thoughtbot: As life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust.\r\n\r\nWe provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what’s important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust.\r\n\r\nWe take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers.\r\n\r\nTake your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at: url tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode.","content_html":"Hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido chat with Mandy Moore, the mastermind behind thoughtbot's Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots and Bike Shed podcasts. Mandy shares some great insights on the technical aspects and the crucial role of editing in creating top-notch content. She stresses the importance of having a producer to handle the behind-the-scenes work, allowing the hosts to focus on delivering captivating content. Mandy also shares her personal journey into podcast editing, highlighting her resourcefulness and how her skills evolved over time.
\n\nWill and Victoria also delved into the strategic advantages of podcasting for businesses, highlighting its effectiveness in helping thoughtbot build a community and establish authority as a company. Mandy discusses how a well-produced podcast can be a potent sales tool and can significantly boost a company's brand presence. They even touch on the future of podcasting, with Mandy pointing out how continuous podcast production can help solidify a company's reputation, even in uncertain times. The episode wraps with some practical advice for anyone interested in starting their own podcasts, emphasizing the need for passion, persistence, and a clear strategy.
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Mandy Moore, our long-time Podcast Editor and Creative Content Marketer. Mandy, thank you for joining us.
\n\nMANDY: Thank you so much.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, I'm excited to dive into the topic of podcast, and creative content, and strategies for companies that are maybe long-time listeners of the Giant Robots podcast who are just curious about why we do this podcast and what it does for us as a company. So, excited to get into that, but before we do, let's start with a fun question to get us warmed up. Mandy, is there anything fun, exciting going on in your world outside of work?
\n\nMANDY: Outside of work, I spend a lot of time at my local dance studio doing a mixture of dance and aerial arts. It gives me something physical to do after my work days. It's an afternoon thing for me. So, I spend about one to two hours there. And it's really helped me overcome a lot of challenges in my life, dealing with a lot of trauma and other aspects of overall personal development and recovery.
\n\nWILL: That's awesome. I normally would never know what you're even talking about, or whatever, but [chuckles] my daughter is into dance. So, every Tuesday, I take her to dance. She begs me to take her, so I take her. So, my daughter is three—about to turn four. And every time we go to dance, she begs us to let her do the aerial dance. Like, I don't ever try to tell her, "Hey, you're too small," or whatever, but we're like, "Let's wait on that one. And then, let's wait until you can do the dance and then get up there." But she is so excited to get on the aerial dance and to do that. So, for you, was it scary when you started doing it, or did you just jump right in? How was it?
\n\nMANDY: I always jump right into everything, but it was hard at first. It looks like it shouldn't be that hard, but it takes a lot of strength. And I was in a much different place eight months ago than I am now. It amazes me the transformation and growth that I've been able to see in myself because, from the very beginning, my instructor encouraged me to video myself. So, I have beautiful videos of progressions. And I can't wait to get a little bit more confident with my own social media and start sharing some of the before and afters because I really want to inspire people. It's done wonders for me and my mental health.
\n\nWILL: A lot of respect to you because I don't know if I could just trust, I don't know what you call it, but that ribbon, that material just to hold you. I don't know if I could do it. So, a lot of respect to you [chuckles].
\n\nMANDY: So, my instructor likes to point out a fun fact, and I'm going to butcher it. I think it can hold whatever a baby elephant weighs. It can hold up to three tons safely.
\n\nWILL: Is it...I'm going to throw this...I'ma tie it in with Victoria. Is it kind of like...because I know with rock climbing, it's all about hand placement, especially if you're belaying. Are the mistakes when you are not paying attention, and you let go of one of the materials, or how does it work?
\n\nMANDY: Mistakes happen when you think about it too much. And that is what I'm always working on is to just stop thinking about it and just doing it because I'm an overthinker, too. And when I start to think about it too much, then I get messed up. But your body knows. Your body adapts. And it learns after the exercise is over. So, in the evenings, after your exercises, that's when your body is, like, doing its internal magic and, like, memorizing your stuff. So, that's why when you go back, it gets easier each time because your muscle memory actually grows when you're on your downtime.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh yeah. Yeah, I was going to say about climbing...it's funny that you asked that question, Will, about, like, the things that actually hold you because people get that question in climbing, too, about the ropes. Like, are the ropes actually going to hold you? And once you're comfortable with it, you know that it can hold a lot more weight than you [laughs], but it still can be scary. And I've seen people in Joshua Tree doing aerial silks from a line that's been drawn across the tops of two boulders. So, super cool. There's a lot of crossover in the community, I think, between people who do that type of dance and who also enjoy climbing and being outside. So, I love it.
\n\nAnd so, you make a really good point about how you learn and how information seeps into your brain. And maybe how do you see the world of podcasting and all the things you can learn from podcasting, like, how does that fit into, like, how you learn and how you think about the world?
\n\nMANDY: You know, I've built my entire career on figuring things out, and just building memory, and repeating processes, and figuring out what people want. Because, to me, editing is more than AI can do at this time.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. And I think you're super talented at what you do, so I just want to make sure that I tell you that. Like, you've done a really good job with us. I remember whenever I first had a conversation with Chad, I didn't know to what extent that being a podcast host with this podcast would be. But whenever he said, "We have an editor who will cut some stuff, make you sound good," I was like, "Oh, okay." "Like, essentially, Mandy is doing the hard work for us."
\n\nMANDY: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: And so, I was like, "I'm in. Let's do this." So, it's an art to do this. It's an art. How did you get started? How did you get the ball rolling to get to the point you're at right now?
\n\nMANDY: I was scrappy. I go in time by how old my daughter is, and my daughter is almost 15. So, that's how long I've been doing this. Because I was a single mom and I was a waitress. So, at the time, I had a one-bedroom apartment, and I still had a laptop. And my neighbor didn't have a Wi-Fi password. So, I used my neighbor's Wi-Fi, and I started doing virtual assistant jobs. And I met a developer. He was like, "Can you edit a podcast for me?" And I was like, "Yeah, I can totally do that."
\n\nAnd I got off the call and started Googling what is a podcast. And this was back in 2010, mind you, so podcasting was new at that point. And so, I just learned it, and I did a decent job. And every podcast that he did, I got better and better. And then, he had friends, and it just kind of turned into, like, Mandy's the go-to for tech podcasting there for a little bit. And I, at one point, got a referral to thoughtbot, and I've been with you ever since. I think it's been going on five or six years now.
\n\nVICTORIA: What's your first piece of advice for someone who's interested in starting their own podcast?
\n\nMANDY: Get a producer. I prefer to be behind the scenes. So, I like to help other people shine. So, like, my goal as a producer is just to have the host show up and be the talent and say the interesting things. So, if you want to have the bandwidth to be able to do that, you know, let somebody else do that work who specializes it because you can really bring your full self to the table and do what you need to do as the host and have fun with it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And I think people either correctly estimate that it is a lot of work to edit your own podcast and to create the content, do all the marketing, invite people, plan great content. And it is much easier if you have help [laughs]. And you're probably going to have a better podcast that people want to listen to because it sounds good, and you might not want to skimp on that detail.
\n\nMANDY: Yeah. The other thing I would say when you go to start a podcast is a lot of people are focused on equipment. And that can take you down a long rabbit hole and make you never start to actually record the podcast because you're too worried about all of the details. Get a microphone and go. You don't even need an editor. You can make yourself sound decent through tons of free software. Audacity is one of my favorite platforms to use to edit podcasts. It's been free and open source since I've started.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. I love the advice, what you said, because not everyone...I don't want to do total assumptions, but majority of people fit in two camps. You have the people that want to be out front and chat and can connect with anyone. But you also have the people behind the scenes. So, I'm glad you said that because I think a lot of stuff...when people realize who they really are and what they're good at, it makes them so much better. I can't imagine doing a podcast and trying to edit everything and push it out. I think I'm decent at doing the podcast, and you make us so much better. So, I'm so glad that you said that about kind of just knowing your roles and what's your strengths and everything, so...
\n\nMANDY: Absolutely. I find it relaxing to edit a podcast. Believe it or not, editing a podcast with software is kind of like putting a puzzle together. I was a kid that loved to sit down with puzzles. You know, it is true that once I come to kind of memorize waveforms, like, Will, I know when you're going to say, "Um" a lot of times before I even hear you say, "Um" because I've recognized your speech patterns and same with Victoria. I will be able to pick them out. And it's very interesting. That's a little-known fact from a producer standpoint [chuckles].
\n\nWILL: Well, that's actually really cool because I don't really talk about this much, but I'm originally from Louisiana, and so I have a thick Southern accent. And so, that was actually one of my fears about doing, like, a podcast. So, it's actually interesting that you're saying that you know the ums and, um, which I just did [laughs], but you know how to help us out with that.
\n\nSo, yeah, that's actually...I think that was one of the things I have respect for you is that you break down the barriers for people to be better and not be so insecure. Because if you're from Louisiana, there are so many words if you look at it and you try to pronounce it, it's going to mess you up, like Atchafalaya, or Natchitoches, or so many of those words that you're like, you almost have to know the word and pronouncing is going to mess you up.
\n\nMANDY: I call it...and I don't think anybody is a not smart person, but when I edit podcasts, like, the finished product comes out, I liken it to giving the speakers IQ points because the listeners hear the final, polished version. A lot of people start sentences three times over. They only hear the polished version. So, in essence, it's giving the speakers IQ points just to give them a little bit more, you know, of a leg up.
\n\nNobody wants to really hear somebody bumbling around, but we all do it. We all get nervous. It's human nature to stumble and get nervous and let all those speech patterns out that show us as nervous. But that's what we're for is to clean everybody up. And I love getting to help people have that confidence to go because it's just like, "Don't worry. I got you. Just go out there, have fun, and you're going to sound great."
\n\nVICTORIA: And, in your experience, what kind of reasons for a podcast make the most sense for a business? Like, it's a common piece of advice if you want to build a community to start a podcast, but why is that? Or, like, when does it really make sense for you to start your own podcast?
\n\nMANDY: I mean, you nailed the number one is the community. But, honestly, also, it's a great sales tool, especially if you're a customer with customers, and you're helping people network and expand the network. You're featuring the people. You're expanding the network broader than a community like in a Slack channel, say, or a message board because those are fine, too.
\n\nBut putting your company out there and being authority and also giving people access to free content that is helpful to them can really help a business establish that trust in the market and be like, wow, they really take their time to put this out there. One of the things that I constantly still to this day hear people talk about is the thoughtbot Handbook, that was written years and years ago. And it was a beautiful piece of free content, and everybody still talks about it.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I agree. I think one thing about thoughtbot is the handbook. I still hear people talk about it, and it's referenced often. So, that's actually really good advice. What does success look like for you, like, six months now to five years? Where do you want to go?
\n\nMANDY: I think, for me, I've been in the tech industry for a really long time. I've fallen into the background a little bit too much in that I used to produce a pretty popular podcast called Greater Than Code. And I needed to take a step back from that because, one, it was becoming pretty much a full-time job.
\n\nYou know, content is in a really weird place. I've really been trying to pivot into the general content creation space because I do marketing as well, social media, design, and assets. I've designed my own website. I design my own graphics. So, just kind of letting people know that I'm kind of a one-stop, one-shot person. I do it all myself right now, and I have forever. The only thing I outsource is I have a transcriptionist who is a real person, which is a great selling point to a lot of clients of mine because I don't use AI. And I do have a person who goes over it with the human touch who is well-versed in the software developer lingo.
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\n\nVICTORIA: What kind of trends do you see with podcasting and with the technology used to manage and produce podcasts?
\n\nMANDY: I see podcasting, in general, be a come-and-go trend in this industry. It tends to be, you know, one of the things that businesses are excited to ramp up on. But then it's also one of the things that is the first to go when things get tough or busy or you need to allocate your resources elsewhere. Podcasting seems to be like a trend that I see coming, going with the economy.
\n\nIt's actually very weird to bring it to mind now that you mention it because people love podcasts. But when things are unstable, it's almost like they see it as a perk, and it just becomes something that's easily let go. And that's why I think thoughtbot and the podcasts have been so strong is that they have been kept going no matter what in the industry.
\n\nAnd thoughtbot has really become an authority in not just, you know, it started out as a Ruby podcast. And it very much has grown into a bigger startup, entrepreneurial, consultancy-driven show. And so, it just shows that when you stick in the game, what, we're 520-something episodes in now, that you really do have great things achieved.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And it sounds like just, you know, having that persistence and just keep going, and if you've found a formula that works for you, you can really benefit from continuing to invest in it. I love that. And let's see, what tips do you give people on how to have more exciting conversations, more engagement?
\n\nMANDY: I love when people just join the call and immediately hit record because some of the best parts of the conversations happen, and you're like, "Oh, wait, we should have been recording that." Start recording and relax and have...The opening conversations that we started this conversation with, it's an icebreaker. It gets into some of your everyday background.
\n\nAnd as hosts, one of the things that I told Victoria and Will to establish rapport with the audience to kind of start dropping a bit of the narrative. You talk about your story, and then the listeners become invested in you, and that's why they come back, too. It's great content all around, but they also really start to love the hosts too.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I agree with that because most of the podcasts that I do listen to it's mostly around the host and the way that they treat people. Because if there's a host that's very mean, aggressive, I'm probably not going to listen to them. And, honestly, that's just me, like, I'm not saying don't listen to them. But the hosts do make the podcast a lot of times. And I'm not saying that we make the podcast though, but...
\n\nMANDY: [laughs] You do.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nMANDY: It's the chemistry. You guys, I don't know if you know this, but I'm your biggest fan. Like, it's the chemistry. And it's The Bike shed. Fun fact: Joël and Stephanie, like, I told Joël [laughs]...when Joël took over from Steph and Chris, he had different co-hosts each week. And as soon as he had his episode with Stephanie, I said, "Joël, it's Stephanie."
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And it can take a little while to get your dynamic between your co-host going. And other times, it happens right away, and it's very easy and natural. So, I love that for Stephanie and Joël. So, the idea behind a podcast like The Bike Shed, where it's two main hosts and they're coming up with different topics that they want to dive into, and sometimes they have guests but most of the time they don't, versus a show like Giant Robots where you're interviewing guests, what do you think about the content for each of those? Like, how do you kind of separate those in your mind and the direction content-wise?
\n\nMANDY: Marketing and knowing your audience. So, the Giant Robots appeals to startups and entrepreneurs. The Bike Shed is more into the code and into the nitty gritty of software development, so they go into deeper concepts. But Giant Robots is more about talking to the people. It's more of an interview-style show. It's featuring interesting people doing really awesome things and, getting the stories out there and connecting. And that's why I love that thoughtbot has both podcasts. We've just started, what—Giant Robots on Tour—to cater to the EWAA region, which is super exciting.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah and, for me, being an interview-style podcast gives me this opportunity to have these deep conversations with really interesting people that you wouldn't necessarily get into in, like, a normal networking event, right?
\n\nMANDY: Right.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, if you can think of a list of 10 interesting people you want to talk to, you should start a podcast.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nMANDY: And if you can think of those people, a producer like me will also hunt those ten interesting people down for you and see if they'll talk to you because we can do that, too.
\n\nWILL: That is the truth.
\n\nMANDY: I've tracked some pretty cool people down. I'm pretty proud of my skills.
\n\nVICTORIA: We are absolutely thrilled to have you with us here today, Mandy, and to be such a big part of our podcast, and super delighted to have you come out of the background and be on the show with us today and share your voice. Do you have anything else that you'd like to promote?
\n\nMANDY: I'd just like to say that I am taking on clients. I would love to get into a general creative content role to utilize all my many skills that I've scrappily picked up over the years. It's hard to put into a resume. You can check me out at mandymoore.tech.
\n\nWILL: It's not just podcasts, correct? So, if I wanted to try to become an influencer, could you help me with that? Like, what's the different areas that you could help me?
\n\nMANDY: Oh, girl, yes. Let's make you an influencer, Will. Let's go.
\n\nVICTORIA: I could see that for you, Will.
\n\nWILL: I've thought about it, but it's a lot of work. So, that's a big thing, so...[laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. I think that's really interesting to think about, Mandy. And I hope that people get a lot out of this episode when they're trying...if they're in this process of considering their own marketing plans, and podcast production, and other types of creative strategy, they might have to reach out to you.
\n\nMANDY: Thank you so much for having me.
\n\nWILL: Thank you for being here.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @will23Larry.
\n\nVICTORIA: And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Check her out at mandymoore.tech. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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Sponsored By:
Host Will Larry announces an exciting new Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast limited series focusing on Europe, West Asia, and Africa and introduces new co-hosts Sami Birnbaum, Svenja Schäfer, Rémy Hannequin, and Jared Turner! Sami sets a fun challenge for the team to devise a name for the new series by the end of the podcast. The co-hosts engage in an icebreaker game where Sami randomly generates questions for each to answer.
\n\nThe team members talk about their paths into the tech industry. Jared, Rémy, and Will share stories of discovering their passion for tech, overcoming initial struggles, and finding their niche within the field. They discuss the importance of patience, problem-solving, and continuous learning in their careers. Sami emphasizes the value of realistic expectations and the ability to spend time with complex problems to find solutions.
\n\nAs the first show progresses, the co-hosts have an amazing time brainstorming potential names for the new series, and ultimately, the team decides on "Giant Robots On Tour" to capture the spirit of exploration and collaboration across different regions. We're excited to keep bringing you this new limited EWAA series! Please subscribe and follow along with us!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry.
\n\nAnd today, we're announcing a new limited series of the podcast focused on the region of Europe, West Asia, and Africa. Please welcome our new co-hosts. Let's start with Sami. Can you introduce yourself?
\n\nSAMI: I'm Sami. I'm a developer at thoughtbot based in the UK, in London specifically. And I'm really looking forward to this new Europe, West Asia, and Africa podcast, although we are going to need to come up with a name. We haven't got one yet because we're busy people, and we're consultants the rest of the time. But the plan is to get one.
\n\nI don't think there's any quicker way to do it than just for ourselves to come up with one. And so, I think we should do a bit of a challenge here. I think we could say that by the end of this podcast, we'll have a name. I don't know what that's going to be. I don't know what that's going to look like. But we'll go around at the end of the podcast, and we'll see if one of us during this podcast can pick a name for this new series. I'm going to pass on to Svenja. Hey, Svenja.
\n\nSVENJA: Hi, Sami. Thank you so much. My name is Svenja. I'm a developer and development team lead at thoughtbot. I live in Spain, more precisely in Almería. It's part of Andalusia. It's all the way in the South of Spain. I'm very excited to be in this podcast. And about the name, I'm also very excited about that. No clue yet. That's it for now from my side. Rémy, do you want to go next?
\n\nRÉMY: Thank you, Svenja. I'm Rémy. I'm a software developer at thoughtbot. I joined a little bit more than one year ago. And I'm working from Paris, France. And I'm very excited to join this series. Jared, do you want to go next?
\n\nJARED: Yeah. Thanks, Rémy. Hi, my name's Jared. I'm a product manager at thoughtbot. I am originally from Australia, but I live in London. And you're currently hearing me from Scotland. I'm very excited to hear what we're going to discuss over the course of this limited series and to hear what name Sami is about to come up with on this very podcast. Sami, back to you.
\n\nSAMI: Yeah. Thanks, Jared. It's great to be doing this with all of you. And formal intros are great, right? So, now everyone kind of knows our position at thoughtbot and where we live. But I was thinking possibly to spice some things up...I've never done a game like this before, so I have no idea where this is going to go.
\n\nIt's kind of an icebreaker game where I use a random icebreaker generator online. They're not my questions. They're generated by someone else, which makes it even more risky. I'll kind of go to each of you individually with an icebreaker question that I've generated, and you're going to have to answer the question.
\n\nYou have no idea what's coming. I have no idea what's coming. But it's a great way of other people getting to know kind of more about us in a more informal way, in a way which we might not think about sharing things. I will do you a favor, though; I'll give everyone two skips, okay? So, I'll hit you with a question, and then, if you don't like the question, you can skip the question. But you've only got two skips, so I would say use them wisely. Because if you skip and you get a worse question, you're not going back to the previous one.
\n\nOh, okay, this is interesting. I'm going to start the way we intro'd, just to make it fair. Svenja.
\n\nSVENJA: I'm scared. I'm scared [laughs].
\n\nSAMI: You should be scared. The best thing about this game is the one who's hosting doesn't get asked the questions. So, Svenja, this is your question. What is a lesson you feel you learned too late in life?
\n\nSVENJA: Online banking [laughs]. I don't use online banking for that long. I don't know. I was the last person, I think, who always ran around with cash because I also didn't use credit cards also, so maybe trust in online banking. I'm not sure [laughs] that's a lesson. Sometimes, I probably shouldn't trust in it, but yeah, it would have made my life a little bit easier. Does that count?
\n\nSAMI: It definitely counts. I mean, what could be more valuable information to know about Svenja?
\n\nSVENJA: [laughs]
\n\nSAMI: That she doesn't like online banking. And that's exactly the type of valuable content you will get from the Europe, West Asia, and Africa podcast series, which I hope, in the background, we are all thinking of a name because we cannot just say Europe, West Asia, and Africa series the whole time.
\n\nWILL: I have a question, a follow-up. So, how did you do banking? Did you go in every single time, deposit, and withdraw inside the bank?
\n\nSVENJA: Yes, actually, well, I did. It was good and kind of not so good because I always needed to go back home because I had one office I was kind of allowed to go to because all the others they didn't know me. And so, I went there; then I did my transfer there. I like to speak to real people [laughs], which is interesting because I always worked remotely, at least the last ten years, I think. But real-life interaction is kind of important to me.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, that's neat to know. Okay. Awesome. Awesome.
\n\nSAMI: That's cool. Okay, Rémy, I have not hit the generator button yet, so I don't know what's coming. Let's hit it now. Okay, this is interesting. What's something you do to relieve anger or stress?
\n\nRÉMY: I have a lot of different activities. I kind of find it hard not to do anything. I don't know if it's a quality or not, but I know I'm always busy. So, if I'm stressed, I just go to the next occupation, you know. So, I like to do bread at home. I like sourdough bread. It smells amazing. It's not that easy, but you're working with living organisms. It's kind of nice. I read a lot of astronomy magazines because I'm deeply in love with astronomy. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but I love to play with my daughter. When you're stressed, sometimes it increases the stress depending, but it's always quite fun.
\n\nSAMI: That's great. Playing with the kids definitely resonates with me. I've got four of my own, so they keep me busy. Is the sourdough bread is that the one where you have that...I'm going to show how naive I am—my lack of knowledge. You have, like, that starter thing that kind of lives with you.
\n\nRÉMY: Yeah, exactly, the sourdough starter. That's actually the most fun part for me so far because you have to start from scratch. I mean, you can start with another starter. But it's quite interesting to just start with water and flour, and then you create something living, and it's a mutual benefit. You feed it, and then it feeds you a little bit later when you bake it in 200 degrees in your oven. It's interesting.
\n\nWILL: You said it's a living organism. So, you said that you started with water and flour. So, what introduces the living organism into the sourdough bread?
\n\nRÉMY: I lack a bit of the English vocabulary for that. I think it's called yeast. The living yeast on the flour, especially if it's organic, it's just out there, you know, even in the air. And when you just feed it with warm water and, like, a cozy environment, it starts eating the flour, and it develops, and it changes some of the texture and the taste into a lot of things. And then, it's quite powerful for making the bread rise and making a very nice taste and the crust and everything. But I think if I'm correct, Svenja might know a lot more about [inaudible 07:51] bread than me.
\n\nSVENJA: I don't. I think the reason you said is because I'm German [laughs]. We love bread, and I absolutely love bread, but I don't have the patience to feed something. I don't have kids. I do have dogs. I do feed them, but they also get sometimes a bit of bread. I was never able to do my own sour bread, unfortunately, because I really love it. And I don't get it around here, which is really sad. So, I will look into that.
\n\nSAMI: That's cool. That brings us to Jared. Jared has been waiting patiently for his question.
\n\nJARED: Hit me with it, Sami.
\n\nSAMI: Let's do it. Oh, okay. If you could kick one person out of this podcast...no, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. That's not, I mean, no, that was just...that's my own. Okay, let me actually do one. What's one characteristic you admire in others, and why?
\n\nJARED: Oh, interesting. I think I always appreciate when someone else takes the time to understand someone else's point of view. If that goes a bit meta, like, we live in our own heads so much that it's really nice when someone reflects on how someone else thinks or their point of view. So, that's my one characteristic.
\n\nSAMI: That's really interesting. And how have you found, I guess, in the world of consultancy, and when you're working with products, how have you found that's kind of helped you when it comes to the product ownership side of things?
\n\nJARED: Well, it's a constant reminder to do it myself; that's for one thing, especially dealing with a lot of different clients and a lot of different people. It's always really important to think about their perspective, their own customers' perspective.
\n\nSAMI: That's cool. I'll hand back to Will, but, Will, I'm not just going to hand it back to you for free, right? You're also going to have to do an icebreaker.
\n\nWILL: Let's do it.
\n\nSAMI: Will, would you rather receive a shout-out from the CEO at a company all-hands meeting or a private word of thanks from them?
\n\nWILL: Ooh, I'm usually a private person, so probably private. But I have learned in my leadership, and I've learned this, this is a lesson I've learned: it's like, praise publicly, but then, like, reprimand privately. And so, I think majority of the people like that. But I'm just a private individual person. So, I'm like, just tell me, and I'm okay with that. I don't need everyone else to tell me and to say, "Hey, Will, you did a good job." Because yeah, it just brings pressure and all of that to me. So, I'm more of a private individual. Because also, I can ask more questions then. I can get more detail around like, "Yo, what did you like? Why are you saying a thank you and a shout-out?" So, that's where I'm at.
\n\nSAMI: Okay, I'll hand back to Svenja.
\n\nSVENJA: Yeah, I think we should give it back to you as well. So, because I am able to open a website, so that's another lesson I learned: how to type it in.
\n\nSAMI: [chuckles]
\n\nSVENJA: And I do find a question for you. Since nobody skipped, we will remove that option for you, Sami. So, you only get one question and that is, what is one thing we would never guess about you?
\n\nSAMI: Oh, I love that. Should I say how much I hate podcasting?
\n\nSVENJA: [laughs]
\n\nSAMI: No, I'm kidding. I haven't done it enough yet to know if I hate it. Ooh, one thing. That kind of means I've got to reveal something, right? Because you would never guess this thing, and you would never know this thing. So, I am 32 years old, and my intention was never to be a developer, ever.
\n\nSo, I actually wanted to be a psychotherapist, a cognitive behavioral therapist, to be precise. And I started on a master's course. I did it for six weeks, and then I realized I couldn't handle it. I had placements in a hospital, and the cases that we were dealing with it was too much for me. It was too overwhelming, and I didn't have the skills to kind of handle that as well as my own personal world.
\n\nSo, at the age of about...I've got to remember what age it was. I think it was about 25 years old, 24, 25 years old. I already had one kid, and I was married with one child. And what am I going to do? My whole plan to be a psychotherapist that I'd done my undergraduate degree to go towards, and now I was on this master's just kind of fell apart.
\n\nSo, it's like, what's the easiest thing I can do? And that was to learn to code, right [chuckles]? Well, I'd always been good at computers. I'd always been fixing things. I was always the one at home who'd been asked, you know, "There's a problem with this computer." Normally, it was the printer, and I hate printers, but that's for a totally other episode. I could do a whole episode on printers. My one next to me is currently plugged in. I don't use Wi-Fi—Bluetooth with it because it's just not worth it.
\n\nBut either way, so I wrote my first line of code when I was 25. That was the first time I ever saw code, wrote HTML, and knew what it was. So, I never wanted to be a developer. Here I am all those years later, but it was never a plan, and I've found myself here. But I'm quite happy for it.
\n\nSVENJA: That is so interesting and definitely something I wouldn't have guessed.
\n\nSAMI: Yeah, it's been one hell of a journey, shall we say, but an exciting one.
\n\nSVENJA: I would be super interested how the others of you stepped into the world of tech, so to say.
\n\nJARED: Similar sort of thing to Sami in that I've always been interested, always been the sort of more technical, geekier person of the school and the social groups. And then, at uni, I actually took some computer science classes, and then quickly felt very confused and ended up doing a bachelor of commerce in marketing and management instead, which was a lot more straightforward basic business degree, sort of tick some things off. But still, like, throughout all that time, always just loved tech, loved reading about it, loved dabbling.
\n\nAnd I landed a job at a previous company that I just got a lot of freedom to help out where I needed, problem-solve, do lots of different things. It was quite a small business. I was able to level up a whole bunch of different skills, like some technical and some sort of more managerial as well. That's sort of how I got a lot of my knowledge and then moved on from there. How about you, Rémy?
\n\nRÉMY: I started in tech right away after high school. So, I had studied...I think we still call it multimedia. It was communication, coding, design, sound, video. I learned how to make step motions, you know, a lot of different things. It was kind of doing everything and trying to find the one thing that you actually like, and I found mine, which was actually coding.
\n\nI think I found what I liked when I was in school. I remember struggling on math homework. I don't have a very high background in math, but I used to enjoy it. I remember struggling on some homework, and the sensation when you finally find the answer, and you finally resolve the problem it was amazing. And I felt that again in coding. Like, you have a bug, or you have a feature, and you can't make it. And you try again, and you find some clues, but it doesn't work. And at some point, it works, and you finally made it. And it's an amazing sensation. I had it again, like yesterday. It's quite common. I love that so much. So, I think that's how I decided, okay, that's what I want to do every day.
\n\nSVENJA: Thank you so much, Rémy and Jared. What about you, Will?
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I think I've told this story before on the podcast, but I always love telling it again. I actually lost my job, and I was really struggling. And if you know me, fashion is not my thing at all, and I was working at this fashion store. It was this clothing store. I hated it. I hated it. Like, there's no shortage on that. I hated it [laughs]. I was working there, and then I also started working at this insurance place. We sold travelers insurance. So, it was very interesting to see how that works. And yeah, I'm not going to say too much about it, but yes, how that works [laughs].
\n\nBut at that company, the one good thing about it was they were like, as long as you get your work done, you could do whatever you want. And so, one day, I was at home, and my partner was like, "You're struggling. You're just trying to figure out what you're trying to do, and you're struggling." So, she kind of walked me through, like, "What do you want to do?" And I was...when Sami mentioned the printer, I laughed because I was that person also. And printers are tricky because you never know what the real issue is. You just got to tinker with it and hope it works. And yes, you never get the same answer twice, I feel sometimes [laughs].
\n\nSAMI: I feel like all our listeners who are kind of really good at fixing printers are thinking like, oh my gosh, I'm going to work at thoughtbot now. I'm going to be an amazing developer one day.
\n\nWILL: You could. Why not [laughs]? And it's interesting you say that because, like, I was 29 or 30 whenever I started in the field. So, I was a little bit late, I feel sometimes, to get into development. But my wife, she asked me, "You're struggling. You need to do something because this is not going to work. We got to change it up." And I was like, well, I grew up in a small town in Louisiana, in the south of United States, and we didn't have anything tech there. It was just a rural place. And so I never had the opportunity to learn anything about computers. I guess the printer and stuff just came naturally to me, and this was before YouTube and all of that.
\n\nSo, she challenged me. She said, "Go and learn it. Go figure it out. Go learn it." I did. And I forgot who mentioned; somebody mentioned something about being easy getting into development. It was not for me. I remember so many times at the coffee shop just, like, I don't know what I am doing. And if you know anything about me, I sometimes don't have the patience to slow down. And so, I came in, and I wanted to be a senior developer and produce like a senior developer. And I was sadly mistaken that that's not how it work. But five years now, I am a senior developer, so I've enjoyed it. I would not change it for anything, and I love it. So, it's been a good change for me, so I love tech.
\n\nSAMI: I think it's so helpful to kind of hear realistic expectations about how long it does take. It really is a skill. Some people often ask me, "What is one characteristic that kind of indicates success in the field?" And there isn't just one. But I definitely think that the ability to sit and spend time is so helpful. Because if you can spend time with something and just sit there and, like, be patient, like you were saying, often, you will get to a solution, and it will happen.
\n\nBut it's about almost slowing yourself down and slowing your mind and your brain down. And we kind of call it in industry, you know, the concept of having a rubber duck, which is also a form of I'm stuck on something. I just need to speak this out, not necessarily with someone who can respond, but in a way that allows me to verbalize slowly what's going on. And you'll be surprised how often you reach a solution. So, that's really interesting.
\n\nSo, yeah, we've got this great series coming. We have some great guests lined up. The advantage of doing this series over in Europe, West Asia, and Africa is we're going to get access to some guests within our time zones, within our region that this podcast has not been able to get access to before. And so, we are really excited about the people that we're going to bring on, and you're going to get to hear some of the most incredible podcasts that you've heard.
\n\nBut we don't have a name. We still don't have a name. And I kind of set the challenge at the beginning of this podcast of, well, let's just come up with one. So, who wants to give a shout-out and think about, you know, what this name is going to be? Just to clarify, it's still going to be called the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, but where you see that kind of title of the individual episode, it will probably have a prefix of kind of the series name just so you know it's from us. Victoria, I feel like you're hiding away somewhere in the background, and I feel like you've got some suggestions up your sleeve.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, so I love the name of the podcast. I like when I network, and I usually say that, "I'm, like, the co-host of the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots." So, I want to keep the name to be fun. And maybe it's giant robots in a different action like Giant Robots High-Fiving Other Giant Robots or Giant Robots Without Borders, or something like that. That's what I'm thinking.
\n\nSVENJA: I really like the Giant Robots Without Borders. I really like it.
\n\nJARED: Sami, you had a good one that I quite liked as well in the spirit of what we've been talking about: Giant Robots On Tour.
\n\nSAMI: Oh yeah, Giant Robots On Tour. That makes it sound, to me, like we're just going out and having a really fun time, not like we might not be doing sensible things, but we're going on tour. But that kind of also indicates, you know, what happens on tour stays on tour. And we probably need to be conscious that other people will listen to this. So, we have to maybe, like, tone it down if we are the giant robots who are on tour. But yeah, I like Giant Robots On Tour. This is cool. We're actually going to name our series.
\n\nVICTORIA: I do think it would be funny if it was, like, less...I don't want to say less violent, like, Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots, like, Giant Robots Knitting Socks or something, like [laughs], fun, nice, but maybe not as exciting.
\n\nSVENJA: Baking Bread Together [laughs].
\n\nVICTORIA: Giant Robots Baking Bread actually sounds pretty cool.
\n\nWILL: Giant Robots On Tour because it reminded me since we're talking about the different region, the great English rock band, the Beatles. That's what it reminded me of. So, shout out to the UK.
\n\nSAMI: Yeah. I actually often drive past...do you know where the Abbey Road studios were? And there's that famous picture of the Beatles on the album cover of where...I don't know which album it is. They're crossing that zebra crossing across the road. There's that picture of all of them. And what you get now is you get loads of tourists. And so, you're trying to drive your car, and they're just hanging out on the zebra crossing, trying to replicate that picture that they had on the album cover. If you're not familiar with what I'm talking about, just Google "Beatles zebra crossing album cover," and you'll get an idea of kind of what I have to face when I'm just trying to drive from A to B sometimes.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, that's also part of, you know, bringing up why we were wanting to have some hosts in the Europe, West Asia, and Africa region, is there's a lot of context and things like calling it a zebra crossing. We call it a crosswalk. And just having more context and connection with our guests who are from that area would be really great.
\n\nI don't know if you all saw the pictures, but for the last RubyConf that was in San Diego, I actually made robot costumes out of cardboard boxes. And there's absolutely a picture of me in a giant robot costume sitting on a lounge chair outside in the sun. So, it might be perfect for your series.
\n\nSAMI: I think that's a great way to name things, right? Like, if you have a picture that works for a thing, then you have to kind of go with a name like that. Do we vote? How do we come up with it? Is this a democracy? Probably not.
\n\nJARED: Well, I think one thing we haven't clarified is that Sami, you're our primary co-host for the European adventure. So, maybe you should get the decider. Should you dictate to us?
\n\nSAMI: I feel like it's almost worth it kind of being the primary host just so I get to pick the name. So yeah, sure, I'm going to decide, so it's Sami's Giant Robots is going to be the name of this series. No, I'm kidding. Let's go with...okay, I'm stuck between without borders and on tour. I'm really stuck between those two. So, no one else can see this. I'm going to say, like, hands up if you want without borders. Hands up if you want on tour. Okay. Okay. Okay.
\n\nWe're going to be calling our new series, with the most exciting guests that you've ever seen, Giant Robots On Tour. You've heard it here first. It's been announced.
\n\nWILL: Thank you for joining us. I look forward to the Giant Robots On Tour. I am excited about it. I love that we have the diversity at thoughtbot to be able to have this limited series. So, I'm excited to see what comes out of it. So, I can't wait to check it out. I'll be one of the first listeners on every podcast that comes out.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm.
\n\nYou can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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","summary":"Host Will Larry announces a new Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast limited series focusing on Europe, West Asia, and Africa, introducing new co-hosts Sami Birnbaum, Svenja Schäfer, Rémy Hannequin, and Jared Turner. The team shares their journeys into the tech industry and engages in an icebreaker game while brainstorming names for the series. They ultimately decide on \"Giant Robots On Tour,\" capturing the spirit of exploration and collaboration.","date_published":"2024-06-20T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/39976576-c3cb-458c-8ddd-4a5bee1ce0ca.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":30208708,"duration_in_seconds":1549}]},{"id":"e557960c-a61c-4680-85d3-feed7b0c1d37","title":"529: How AI Transforms Small Business Operations","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/529","content_text":"Host Victoria Guido chats with Jaclyn Siu, the co-founder of Starcycle, an AI platform designed as a COO for small businesses. First, Jaclyn describes her entrepreneurial journey and what led her to Starcycle, detailing her earlier ventures, such as helping to scale a men's styling app and a software platform for authenticating high-end art.\n\nHer ultimate goal is to make the tools and experiences typically reserved for startup founders accessible to small business owners, who comprise most of the global business ecosystem. She outlines how Starcycle supports crucial phases in a business’s lifecycle—start-up, sale, or shutdown—by automating operations and documentation, easing burdens on business owners.\n\nJaclyn also touches on the importance of personal connections and genuine curiosity in conducting user research and developing products that genuinely meet the needs of small businesses. She believes we can achieve this by being deeply rooted in empathy and strategically using technology like Starcycle.\n\n\nStarcycle\nFollow Starcycle on LinkedIn or Instagram.\nFollow Jaclyn Siu on LinkedIn. Visit her website: jaclynsiu.com\nFollow thoughtbot on X or LinkedIn.\n\n\nTranscript:\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Jaclyn Siu, Co-Founder of Starcycle, the AI COO for small businesses. Jaclyn, thank you for joining me. \n\nJACLYN: Thank you for having me. It's so fun to be here. \n\nVICTORIA: Great to be here with you as well. Before we get into learning more about Starcycle, can you tell me what's going on in your life outside of work that's exciting for you?\n\nJACLYN: This is a very big departure from what I do on a day-to-day basis, but I am a huge coffee fanatic. And so, I love sampling all different kinds of coffee beans from around the world. And this morning, actually, I just finished the last cup from this amazing roastery in Osaka, Japan. They're called Mel Coffee; shout out to Mel Coffee. That's what I spend a lot of my time outside of work doing is trying different coffee beans. \n\nVICTORIA: No, I love it. I love coffee as well. Actually, I am currently out of espresso beans. We have a fancy espresso machine maker. It's like our one big luxury in the house, and I don't have any coffee beans for it. So, I might need some recommendations from you [laughs] on what to get. \n\nJACLYN: My sympathies on the lack of coffee, but I have plenty of recommendations. We can absolutely jam on this afterwards. \n\nVICTORIA: Okay. Because you've traveled quite a bit, of all the places that you've been, where is the best cup of coffee that you've had? \n\nJACLYN: I mean, I definitely have my favorites. In New York where I am currently, I would say that honor belongs to The Coffee Project. Actually, it's a tie between The Coffee Project and Say Coffee.\n\nIn Berlin, where I was based for the last seven years or so, I would say that honor goes to Bonanza Coffee. I used to go there every single day. And I attribute a lot of my success in Berlin to all the beautiful cups of coffee that they served me. \n\nIn other places, I would say what comes to mind is for sure Mel Coffee in Osaka, Japan, also, Glitch Coffee in Tokyo. In Hong Kong, that would be Craft Coffee. Hong Kong is where I'm from originally, so I have a very big fondness for any local roasteries. And I am going to stop there because, otherwise, this would become a coffee podcast, and I don't think this is what we're here for [laughs]. \n\nVICTORIA: I think there's a pretty strong coffee interest in our listeners, but they can tell me if I'm wrong. No, I think that's great, and it tells us a little bit about yourself. So, you've lived in all these different places and all these backgrounds. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about how your background led you to starting Starcycle. \n\nJACLYN: Starcycle is my third company. I'm a three-time founder, advisor, investor, and mentor. I built my very first startup in my senior year of college, which was a men's personal styling app that surfaced shoppable outfits based on your calendar, style preferences, weather, and other things. And decided quite quickly early on, about a year in, that I wanted some real-world experience before understanding what it's like to run and build a company. I realized, hey, I need to know what it's like to be in one before I can build one. \n\nSo, I spent the next decade-plus in the creative culture and tech spaces, everything from sales and partnerships to marketing growth and operations. I worked on really exciting things from album releases for Rihanna to closing brand deals with TikTok. So, that led me to New York, to Berlin, and now back to New York, which has been really fun. \n\nMy second startup was co-founded over the height of the pandemic, and we built software for blue chip art galleries and working with them to authenticate blue chip and high-end physical art pieces. We authenticated $63 million worth of art in the company's lifetime.\n\nThe even tide of that, so towards the end of my second venture, that kind of initially planted the seed for Starcycle because we had been facing some more difficult times, and we were facing some pretty difficult decisions. I just had this Eureka moment, so to speak, where I was like, hey, I know firsthand how difficult it is to found a business. I want to use my knowledge to help at least one person get over the finish line. And I explored so many different permutations of that. I spoke to startup founders to small business owners, spent hundreds of hours exploring different ways that I could use tech to empower founders, and eventually ended up with Starcycle, which, as you mentioned earlier, is the AI COO for small businesses. \n\nAnd what we do is we are supporting business owners at the mission-critical stages of their business life cycle, so the startup phase, the selling phase, which is when they're hoping to sell or get acquired, and also the shutdown phase. And so, we review and parse through key documentation and automate key operational tasks such as licensing, identifying engagement terms, drafting disclosure statements, et cetera, et cetera. So, it's very much born out of my own experience as the COO and also as an operator for many different kinds of businesses. \n\nI grew up in a very entrepreneurial family of restauranteurs. My dad runs his own practice as a doctor. And I have cousins and other extended family members who are accountants and have their own practices. Somehow, half of my generation in my family are all startup founders now, so that has been really cool just being immersed in that, and also, yeah, wanting to use tech to give back, essentially. \n\nVICTORIA: I love that connection with your family and how that mindset is a part of your culture and who you are. It's really interesting to hear and replay a little bit back of what you said about, you know, you knew you were entrepreneurial, but you wanted more experience. And then, you got to go through starting your own company several times. And now you're trying to share the experience you got from that with other founders. \n\nJACLYN: Exactly. And what drew me to small businesses, really, was that startups do have quite a lot of help. Of course, we can argue perhaps a separate episode on how this support is distributed and whether or not it's equitable, but startups do tend to hog a lot of the headlines and a lot of the glamour and the glitz of being a founder.\n\nAnd where I was really drawn to was the day-to-day coffee shop owners; for example, that was a big one, or just the fact that 99% of businesses around the world are considered small businesses. And I said there has to be a way to take a lot of the great tools and services that we have enjoyed as startup founders and kind of make that a lot more accessible to the people who really need it. And so, that was really the big bow on top for me to start working on Starcycle. \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. It's interesting to think about accessibility and inclusivity, and not just access to funding, but access to tools, access to knowledge, and support, and getting your business up and off the ground. \n\nJACLYN: Exactly. I think the knowledge piece is a big one. And with knowledge, of course, comes support, as you say, and both of those things require a lot of hands-on education but also guidance. And one thing that I've learned over my career as an operator but also as a serial founder is how much that initial touch point really matters for folks.\n\nAnd so, when I say that, I mean, just think about the very first time you encountered a new piece of technology and the feeling that inspired in you and how you felt like that new piece of tech, for better or for worse, reinforced, or not, that feeling. I've been really lucky to be at the forefront of helping a lot of people navigate these experiences, from helping fashion brands at the very beginning of my career, helping fashion brands understand social media.\n\nThis was before sponsored content was a thing. We still called them bloggers back in the day. Yeah, teaching them that social media is going to be an asset for brand marketing, and kind of being on the first wave of tech partnerships, and embracing social media as a platform, to working with artists to get them onboarded and comfortable with streaming. So, I was at Roc Nation at the time when streaming was really just starting to take off. It was the same year that Jay acquired Tidal. And so, there was a seismic shift in how the music industry as a whole was grappling with this new tech. \n\nFast forward to working with art galleries, probably one of the most difficult technical nuts to crack, so to speak, and working with traditionally folks who reject new technology and are wary of software that doesn't offer the same level of discretion or convenience that they are used to, and working to get them excited about software solutions that are built just for them.\n\nAnd so, the through line, for me, you know, as I look back, is how can I take something scary, and intimidating, and difficult to understand for your person who is chronically offline, so to speak, and translate that into an experience that they look forward to that makes them see, \"Oh, this is not just some sci-fi hubbub; it's not just what the Yahoo's at Silicon Valley are up to; this is going to help me and what I care about\"? And that particular thought process, that particular intersection, is what really gets me going every day. \n\nVICTORIA: That's really interesting. And it reminds me of friends that I have who have really deep domain expertise in certain things like nutrition, and coaching, and early childhood intervention and development. And they're asking me, someone who has, like, a connection to founders and startups, about, like, \"How do I get my thing going? Like, how do I take this knowledge and build a business around it?\" So, maybe you can tell me a little more about what research you're doing with these groups of people, with these small businesses. And what kind of questions are you asking, and what kind of things are you finding? \n\nJACLYN: Sure. So, I started with a hypothesis, which was this slightly more nebulous notion that everyone will have an AI copilot. And so, I started to workshop what that could look like for a business owner, specifically because 78% of small businesses are owned and operated by one person. And my expertise or experience as a founder is having had a co-founding team where we can fill each other's gaps, and lift each other up, and work on different things. And a lot of small business owners don't have that luxury. \n\nSo, I said, okay, this is a problem that I have noticed. I am going to explore this to every single nook and cranny I can possibly find. And that led me to experiment with different ways to apply AI to this particular problem. I started looking at the early stage founding stage, where business owners are identifying their next steps to get their next big thing off the ground. They're navigating bureaucracy and figuring out what licenses they need what paperwork they need to file to make certain things a reality. And that, to me, felt like an easy place to start because it is a very well-documented and well-accounted-for space. So, we quickly shipped an early beta feature just to gauge market sentiment and to see what people were really looking for. \n\nThere really is no shortcut here, in my opinion. It's really about putting in the time and the effort to talk to everyone that is interested in finding a new solution for something that has deeply plagued them in some way or another. In a way, putting on different hats as a psychologist almost, like, understanding where their pain points are really stemming from. Is it, like, an operational thing? Is it an emotional thing? All the way to introducing them to something new, which involves reimagining what that user experience could look like, all the way to just being open and having a clear line of communication. \n\nI talk to our users almost every day. We're on calls; we're on emails. And I just love hearing from them, and they know that they can come to me and talk to me about things. I've consulted for some of our small business owners before who come to me with different questions like, \"Hey, can you help me with this business plan?\" \n\nAnyway, so, through all of those conversations, I started to stitch together a few things. The first being that AI is changing so rapidly, and, of course, this is something that is challenging but also incredibly exciting because no one really knows where it's going. We're all kind of testing out our hypotheses in real-time. We're all building towards that reality we want to see. So, noticing that a lot of co-pilot promises we were still, or at least I feel like, we're still a little bit far away from that. And so, I started examining, okay, what is AI already currently really good at and will only get better at? And how can that be applied to something that all business owners have to face?\n\nAnd so, I expanded my search into other life stages of a business, and I identified that over hundreds of hours of conversations as the M&A stage and the closure stage. The M&A space is very exciting. It is also very well accounted for. And, currently, I'm spending quite a lot of time looking into the bankruptcy aspect, the end of life, something that, unfortunately, a lot of businesses will have to go through. \n\nAnd yeah, really studying that space, deeply realizing that we can probably find a, if I may use this as a verb, a \"turbo tax\" for all of these different key operational moments for every small business, right? So, we can, quote, unquote, \"turbo tax\" starting a business. We can, quote, unquote, \"turbo tax\" trying to sell your business. We can turbo tax, closing down your life's work and trying to find a good place to put it to rest. \n\nVICTORIA: How do you find people to be a part of the research? And how do you make sure that you're being inclusive or, you know, going after the right groups?\n\nJACLYN: To the best of my ability. I start within my own networks. Luckily, since at this point, I have built quite a lot of friendships and relationships just within founders of all different kinds, I started by reaching out to different founders and just approached it with a lot of curiosity. I was like, \"Hey, what are you working on? What is troubling you? How could I help?\" And approaching it from a place of \"How can I help?\" as opposed to \"How can you help me?\" You being, of course, the founder I was speaking to. Yeah, really just being in the position of I want to learn from you, I would say, in hindsight, has been the key to a lot of folks being willing to speak with me. \n\nAnd then, of course, on the call itself, when I do manage to get that scheduled, when I speak to them, and doing everything to make them feel heard, to make them feel welcomed. I show up to every single call prepared about this person. I have my questions prepared. Usually, within Calendly, for example, people should fill out what their profile kind of is. So, we do a lot of that pre-work and get that out of the way. And it also helps me prepare for the call. Weirdly enough, it's almost like preparing for a podcast interview. \n\nAnd then, from those calls, I always ask like, \"Hey, I really appreciate you spending time talking to me. Do you know one person who would be willing to do the same thing?\" And I would say, nine times out of 10, the answer is \"Yes.\" And then, I get a follow-up email being like, \"I loved talking to you. Here's my friend who is also facing a similar thing. I already told them about our conversation. They would love to speak with you.\" And it just kind of flows from there. \n\nAnd so, I guess to sum it all up, it really is being thoughtful with your relationships and letting that compounding effect work itself. And at this stage, like, as an early-stage founder, you and your...I don't like the word reputation, but I can't think of a better one right now. Your reputation is really what the currency is, and people typically want to help. And they also want to feel helpful, and they want you to show that they were helpful. And yeah, that has been something that I've seen a lot of success with personally, whether it's through user interviews or approaching it from, like, a sales and partnerships perspective. \n\nVICTORIA: I agree. I think I found the same thing where, what you want to call it, and it's your reputation or your authenticity and your genuine interest in solving the problem that you're going after. I think a lot of people are, you know, of course, they want to talk about things that are bothering them, and they want to see other founders succeed, and it's part of a community. So, it's really nice to hear that's been working for you. \n\nJACLYN: I'm so lucky that this particular thing is what really excites me about being a founder is: having that opportunity to have these conversations. Also, at this point, probably my superpower that I feel like I can draw from so many different experiences to be a good sounding board for whoever it is that I'm talking to. \n\nAnd I remember this so clearly from my previous venture where we were building software for art galleries, and we had some of the most commercially successful artists and art galleries of modern times. And they went on record saying that, you know, they're switching their solutions, or they're coming on board for the first time. And they're not considering any other potential incumbents or competitors simply due to our ability or my ability to talk to them like equals, talk to them like people. \n\nThey were like, \"We spoke to so many founders who were building different kinds of tech solutions for the art industry or the art world. And we always really felt kind of small talking to them because they were throwing a lot of jargon at us. They essentially wanted us to operate under a cloud of confusion so that, hopefully, we would just go along with whatever they say. And you were really the only one who would sit down, take the time to explain, take the time to hear us out, and kind of meet us where we are and see us people.\"\n\nAnd I was really kind of taken aback by that. And I do think that advice applies generally, but especially when it comes to speaking to folks who identify so deeply with what they do, like small business owners, it is so key to really just treat them with respect. I mean, ultimately, that's really what it's about. Like, you respect that they know things that you don't, and you don't lord anything you know that they don't over them.\n\nVICTORIA: I really appreciate that perspective. And I'm curious if maybe there are some core values from your educational background in journalism that flows through into your being a founder and how you have these conversations with people. Are there any core values that translate from that? \n\nJACLYN: I love to listen. I'm just such a curious person. Yeah, I guess you could say that it is a journalistic approach to, you know, ask open questions and let the person feel like they are steering the conversation, and, you know, being that safe space that they know whatever it is they're saying is being taken seriously. \n\nOne of my personal philosophies when it comes to founding is that I let the problem tell me how it wants to be solved. I have a general direction, right? Like, my North Star is that I want to use tech to empower founders; in the same way, you could say that you might start writing a piece with the general idea of like, hey, this is what I want to write about. And I'm open to letting my subjects kind of steer where they really care about so that, like, I end up writing something that is compelling for everybody. \n\nAnd so, yeah, I'm always open to finding the best way. This openness and curiosity, really, has led me to meet some really interesting people and dive through some very fascinating rabbit holes that I might not have done so otherwise. \n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that's really cool. No, I like that a lot. That's super interesting. \n\nMID-ROLL AD:\n\nAre your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features?\n\nWe know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it’s easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn’t looking.\n\nBy delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer.\n\nSave time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops.\n\nVICTORIA: So, in these conversations, you're having in your early discovery process, were there any points where you decided to pivot your strategy based on what you learned?\n\nJACLYN: I would say that the most interesting point was...I think this is probably, like, the clearest example of...whether it's a pivot, or, like, a redirection, whatever you want to call it. This was before I kind of arrived at the stage of bankruptcy or the idea of bankruptcy, which is where I'm really diving deep to at the moment. I had already spoken to a lot of founders in kind of the early stage of starting the business when I was talking to them about, like, \"How can a tool like Starcycle help you on your journey?\"\n\nAnd a lot of them were like, the ultimate milestone was, of course, to sell the business, that they want that ROI, that they want to know that, you know, something that they've worked so hard on was going to end up in great hands. And so, I started examining that side of the spectrum. So, that was, I guess, refocusing number one, which was, okay, I want to understand the buy-sell space, kind of the M&A space, to hear what success factors led people there.\n\nI spoke to everyone I could think of on that end of the spectrum, you know, people who had sold a business, people who tried to sell but didn't sell, people who acquired a business, people in private equity who are looking to buy and operate a business, you know, different buy and sell marketplaces, so on and so forth.\n\nAnd this one conversation with the head of M&A at a language company it was a nice chat. And he kind of mentioned as a throwaway, \"Oh, by the way, like, one thing we also look at are distressed assets.\" That was it. And I said, \"Okay, let's unpack that a bit,\" and just kind of left the rest of my questions. And we started going in that direction. And then, I realized it's a different side of the same coin, exploring M&A and closure, because they are, unfortunately, very closely related to one another. They are both on the ends, like, end of the life cycle.\n\nAnd so, that one comment which might not have occurred, you know, let's say if the person didn't feel like he had a safe space to kind of open up about his process, that has sent me on another journey to really, really dig deep into this very opaque and difficult area, where I'm actually, again, really, really excited to really unpack: How can we help people at the time of need, and how can we use tech to do a lot of the heavy lifting to free them up for very emotionally taxing tasks? Which, of course does happen at that end of the life cycle. \n\nI still very much believe in the overall idea of using AI to help small business owners end to end, but really, I found this particular wedge because I guess I was open to that. And someone dropped the crumb, and I was like, \"Let's take that path. Let's talk about it. \" \n\nVICTORIA: So, it had a high emotional element there, and there's a lot of tasks associated with it that would make it a good use case for AI to support that particular phase of the life cycle? \n\nJACLYN: Yeah, that's absolutely my hypothesis right now. I've been validating this with different small business owners who have, unfortunately, had to close their business. I'm also talking to bankruptcy attorneys. And so, yeah, I guess we'll see what that process looks like. By the time this episode is up and running, I might have found the right angle to tackle this problem, or I might have just found some other opening to look at. So, I guess it really is up for grabs at the moment, which is a very exciting part of being at the early stage, but, of course, also slightly terrifying [laughs]. \n\nVICTORIA: Well, we'll have to have you back on in a year to check in and see how things have progressed. But it makes sense to me. And in all of my recent experience just hearing from founders around San Diego, it sounds like if you're going to be a founder, you are going to have to shut down a business at least once [laughs]. Like, usually, you found multiple businesses and that means that you do have to close or, you know, go through this final action at least one time. You will be very lonely being a founder, and I can see having support through that time and having it be easy could be really helpful and make it seem, you know, easy and maybe even just, like, make it easier to start things up again, too.\n\nJACLYN: For sure. And I love that you touched on the starting again because founders, typically, more often than not, have this very stubborn optimism that we're like, we're going to figure it out one day, and we're going to do it. And at the risk of sounding a bit hokey, bankruptcy can be a beautiful thing. It is, of course, incredibly emotionally difficult. \n\nBut what I find really incredible is the notion of bankruptcy was really born out of this idea of we recognize that you took a huge risk. And even though the risk didn't pan out in the way that we all hoped that it would, we don't want to penalize you further for having taken that risk. So, here is some protection so that when you are ready again, you can start again. And I just find that sentiment very, very powerful. And I've certainly seen that to be true in my own experience. \n\nSo, this really is, like, I feel like my heart and soul problem, you know what I mean? Again, of course, I'm back to my core value I mentioned earlier. I'm open to letting the problem tell me how it wants to be solved. And so, I'm going through that process again to find, okay, what is it in this journey that I can solve with AI? And so, yeah, we can check back in however long, maybe six months, a year or so, and then see where. I would love for you to hold me to that.\n\nVICTORIA: Absolutely. I will. I'd love that. Yeah. And, well, on that note, then, what are the biggest challenges you see on the horizon in the next six months? \n\nJACLYN: I would say the biggest challenge that's coming on the horizon really is, to me, what is very exciting. I alluded to this earlier, but it really is this notion that, of course, we all recognize that AI is disrupting. It has already disrupted a lot of what we know to be true. We're all just testing out our hypotheses in real-time. No one really knows in what direction this wind is blowing. I don't think people could even agree on what AGI means, right? Like, AGI, is it, like, a very, very general thing, or is it AGI for X, AGI for Y? Like, what does that look like? And I don't think there's, like, a consensus on what this looks like, right?\n\nSo, in a way, every founder building in this space, including myself, we're all just working towards what we think that reality is and what reality it is that we want to see. It's a huge challenge because we're quite literally building what has never really existed before. And it is a feeling that I'm personally, luckily, very familiar with, I get super energized by. We're in the beginning. Everyone says this, right? \"We're so early,\" but we really, really are so early in this new wave. And I'm really looking forward to drawing on all of my experiences being at the forefront of various other big changes and applying them to this very particular change.\n\nAnd then, of course, I'm also a little bit nervous about this. I think anyone would be nervous knowing that the tide could change at any moment. I'm also not delusional about this per se, but I'm definitely optimistic. I think we're going to see a lot of generational companies built at every single possible intersection of AI and something. So, it's like AI for small businesses, right? Or you could even go even more granular. There's going to be an AI for hair salons. There's going to be AI for coffee roasters. There's going to be just so many ways to capture this new energy and this revolution that I am very intimidated, but I'm really excited about this.\n\nVICTORIA: So, the gravity and the size and scope of the change, and that being unknown, and also what you mentioned on the tech stack, having that variability and just knowing you might have to pivot or change very quickly, is an exciting challenge as well. \n\nJACLYN: It is. It definitely is. And, of course, it's a tough one to solve for sure. Any founder who wants to build something, really now is the time to just give it a shot because there are so many intersections up for grabs, and that doesn't come around very often. \n\nVICTORIA: That's really great. And I love your approach to that by just trying to see how can you use your expertise and follow the problem and see what solution comes up that is worth focusing on? So, I really appreciate you sharing that. I'm curious if you know what success looks like six months from now or even five years from now for Starcycle. \n\nJACLYN: I would say in six months, I would envision, at this stage, having maybe a small suite, but a suite nonetheless, of different aspects of the small business life cycle, the mission-critical stages I spoke about, having the, quote, unquote, \"different turbo taxable features\" live. And so, we're already able to start really moving the needle for these folks. We have our first test feature live in beta. We're already helping close to 1,200 business owners. So, I'm really looking forward to just increasing that number.\n\nIn five years, I would really love for us to be at that stage where we are helping small business owners end to end. And so, I do see AI growing at a rate or the capabilities of AI growing at a rate way faster than any of us can imagine. \n\nSo, I'm going to just throw this out there and say, in five years, I would love for Starcycle to be, like, a true AI COO on every single step of the way, like, a real strategic thought partner, executional partner for your small business that you otherwise wouldn't have. And you're in the trenches with your AI COO, and we're going to help you build the best business you possibly can. And we'll take care of your end to end. And that, I would say, is my ultimate grand vision. So, I guess let's check back and see what happens. \n\nVICTORIA: I like that. And, you know, that's a really awesome future vision to build towards. And in the immediate term, I'm curious to ask you more about Starcycle and how AI and people work together to give leaders confidence that the COO is giving them good answers and all that. \n\nJACLYN: One thing that we noticed while we were developing our beta and continuing to improve on our current offering is coming to the realization that we want to focus on what AI is currently already really good at and will only get better over time and, to us, that was data parsing, data optimization, formatting, data extraction. And so, that's where the next immediate stage of product development is going to go is really leaning into this data extraction aspect. \n\nAnd we feel like this true thought partner; strategic partner thing will happen over time once we have, like, a lot bigger pool of data of your business to work with, where we can connect dots that you might not have otherwise been able to connect, whether it's because you physically do not have the time, or you may not have the knowledge to, let's say, comb through your monthly P&Ls to draw out certain trends in the way that AI can really do for you.\n\nSo, we're acknowledging the current limitations of AI while maintaining optimism on kind of the long run of what we think AI is going to do. And so, I think for the small business owners that we're currently supporting, we are very much on deck as humans to help them with some of the more strategic moments. And our users know that they can find us anytime. And for a lot of the more data operational action item-driven tasks that they need help with, then AI can step in fairly comfortably and help them in the majority of the cases. \n\nVICTORIA: That sounds really cool. I like how you broke that up. Do you have anything else you'd like to promote? \n\nJACLYN: I'm open to so many different kinds of conversations. And every single conversation is helpful. So, please reach out or sign up, try the product.\n\nWe look at every single survey. I respond to every single survey personally with follow-up questions if you'll allow them. So, I really just want to help anyone who's listening. Whatever problem it is that you're dealing with on your founding journey, I'm here to help. So, in whatever way that I can help you, please let me know. I would love to hear from you. \n\nVICTORIA: I read in your background that also includes asking you questions about your time working with Rihanna. Is that right? You're open? \n\nJACLYN: [laughs] Correct. I suppose. Yes. If that is of interest, we can certainly talk about it [laughs]. \n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that's great. No, I love that, the detail on that. And then, also, we didn't get to talk everything else about your background. You also have that you're an angel investor, and you also are just a general incredible mentor and coach. So, I don't know if there's anything else you wanted to share about that. \n\nJACLYN: I think part of it is also really driven by my passion to empower folks with technology. And a lot of that component, as we've alluded to multiple times over this podcast, is the educational component. And I think I've been really lucky to be exposed to a lot of new things throughout my life. And I want to play even some small part in helping other people encounter tech in what they perceive to be a safe and gentle way. And so, that's what I'm really excited about. \n\nI do occasionally write small checks to companies and founders that I believe in. I spend time guest lecturing at colleges and also mentoring young girls and young women. And, generally, I'm an open book if you want to ask me about how I taught myself stop motion video editing to do something for Rihanna, all the way to how on earth did you find it in yourself to do a third company. I just want to help anyone and everyone who wants to make that difference in the world to be that difference that they're looking for. \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, you know what always gets me excited about tech? Is when people use tech to solve simple problems that helps everyday people. You know, I'm from Washington D.C. I spend time on the side from doing consulting with big federal agencies. I was helping startup nonprofits that were working to end homelessness and solve communication problems with nonprofit organizations sharing their services to people who needed them and that type of tech.\n\nAnd I've been in California now for three years, and I've started rebuilding my networking here. And I'm starting to find those people who are working on those kinds of projects. So, I'm really excited to build a little community here in San Diego and to start giving back to some of those groups again.\n\nJACLYN: Yeah, that's really, really awesome. And that really is what keeps drawing me back to founding is knowing that whether it's founding a non-profit initiative, or a startup, or opening up a coffee shop, like, I keep coming to coffee shops because, of course, I have a deep appreciation for them. But, ultimately, it really is such a tangible way to provide and to give back. And I can't quit.\n\nVICTORIA: I mean, I could quit. I could quit and just, like, rock climb and be bad at surfing for the rest of my life, but I won't. But yes, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us here today, Jaclyn. \n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on thoughtbotsocial@vguido. \n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. \n\nThanks for listening. See you next time. \n\nAD:\n\nDid you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.\n\nMore info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.Sponsored By:thoughtbot: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? \r\n\r\nWe know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it’s easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn’t looking.\r\n\r\nBy delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer.\r\n\r\nSave time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops","content_html":"Host Victoria Guido chats with Jaclyn Siu, the co-founder of Starcycle, an AI platform designed as a COO for small businesses. First, Jaclyn describes her entrepreneurial journey and what led her to Starcycle, detailing her earlier ventures, such as helping to scale a men's styling app and a software platform for authenticating high-end art.
\n\nHer ultimate goal is to make the tools and experiences typically reserved for startup founders accessible to small business owners, who comprise most of the global business ecosystem. She outlines how Starcycle supports crucial phases in a business’s lifecycle—start-up, sale, or shutdown—by automating operations and documentation, easing burdens on business owners.
\n\nJaclyn also touches on the importance of personal connections and genuine curiosity in conducting user research and developing products that genuinely meet the needs of small businesses. She believes we can achieve this by being deeply rooted in empathy and strategically using technology like Starcycle.
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Jaclyn Siu, Co-Founder of Starcycle, the AI COO for small businesses. Jaclyn, thank you for joining me.
\n\nJACLYN: Thank you for having me. It's so fun to be here.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great to be here with you as well. Before we get into learning more about Starcycle, can you tell me what's going on in your life outside of work that's exciting for you?
\n\nJACLYN: This is a very big departure from what I do on a day-to-day basis, but I am a huge coffee fanatic. And so, I love sampling all different kinds of coffee beans from around the world. And this morning, actually, I just finished the last cup from this amazing roastery in Osaka, Japan. They're called Mel Coffee; shout out to Mel Coffee. That's what I spend a lot of my time outside of work doing is trying different coffee beans.
\n\nVICTORIA: No, I love it. I love coffee as well. Actually, I am currently out of espresso beans. We have a fancy espresso machine maker. It's like our one big luxury in the house, and I don't have any coffee beans for it. So, I might need some recommendations from you [laughs] on what to get.
\n\nJACLYN: My sympathies on the lack of coffee, but I have plenty of recommendations. We can absolutely jam on this afterwards.
\n\nVICTORIA: Okay. Because you've traveled quite a bit, of all the places that you've been, where is the best cup of coffee that you've had?
\n\nJACLYN: I mean, I definitely have my favorites. In New York where I am currently, I would say that honor belongs to The Coffee Project. Actually, it's a tie between The Coffee Project and Say Coffee.
\n\nIn Berlin, where I was based for the last seven years or so, I would say that honor goes to Bonanza Coffee. I used to go there every single day. And I attribute a lot of my success in Berlin to all the beautiful cups of coffee that they served me.
\n\nIn other places, I would say what comes to mind is for sure Mel Coffee in Osaka, Japan, also, Glitch Coffee in Tokyo. In Hong Kong, that would be Craft Coffee. Hong Kong is where I'm from originally, so I have a very big fondness for any local roasteries. And I am going to stop there because, otherwise, this would become a coffee podcast, and I don't think this is what we're here for [laughs].
\n\nVICTORIA: I think there's a pretty strong coffee interest in our listeners, but they can tell me if I'm wrong. No, I think that's great, and it tells us a little bit about yourself. So, you've lived in all these different places and all these backgrounds. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about how your background led you to starting Starcycle.
\n\nJACLYN: Starcycle is my third company. I'm a three-time founder, advisor, investor, and mentor. I built my very first startup in my senior year of college, which was a men's personal styling app that surfaced shoppable outfits based on your calendar, style preferences, weather, and other things. And decided quite quickly early on, about a year in, that I wanted some real-world experience before understanding what it's like to run and build a company. I realized, hey, I need to know what it's like to be in one before I can build one.
\n\nSo, I spent the next decade-plus in the creative culture and tech spaces, everything from sales and partnerships to marketing growth and operations. I worked on really exciting things from album releases for Rihanna to closing brand deals with TikTok. So, that led me to New York, to Berlin, and now back to New York, which has been really fun.
\n\nMy second startup was co-founded over the height of the pandemic, and we built software for blue chip art galleries and working with them to authenticate blue chip and high-end physical art pieces. We authenticated $63 million worth of art in the company's lifetime.
\n\nThe even tide of that, so towards the end of my second venture, that kind of initially planted the seed for Starcycle because we had been facing some more difficult times, and we were facing some pretty difficult decisions. I just had this Eureka moment, so to speak, where I was like, hey, I know firsthand how difficult it is to found a business. I want to use my knowledge to help at least one person get over the finish line. And I explored so many different permutations of that. I spoke to startup founders to small business owners, spent hundreds of hours exploring different ways that I could use tech to empower founders, and eventually ended up with Starcycle, which, as you mentioned earlier, is the AI COO for small businesses.
\n\nAnd what we do is we are supporting business owners at the mission-critical stages of their business life cycle, so the startup phase, the selling phase, which is when they're hoping to sell or get acquired, and also the shutdown phase. And so, we review and parse through key documentation and automate key operational tasks such as licensing, identifying engagement terms, drafting disclosure statements, et cetera, et cetera. So, it's very much born out of my own experience as the COO and also as an operator for many different kinds of businesses.
\n\nI grew up in a very entrepreneurial family of restauranteurs. My dad runs his own practice as a doctor. And I have cousins and other extended family members who are accountants and have their own practices. Somehow, half of my generation in my family are all startup founders now, so that has been really cool just being immersed in that, and also, yeah, wanting to use tech to give back, essentially.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that connection with your family and how that mindset is a part of your culture and who you are. It's really interesting to hear and replay a little bit back of what you said about, you know, you knew you were entrepreneurial, but you wanted more experience. And then, you got to go through starting your own company several times. And now you're trying to share the experience you got from that with other founders.
\n\nJACLYN: Exactly. And what drew me to small businesses, really, was that startups do have quite a lot of help. Of course, we can argue perhaps a separate episode on how this support is distributed and whether or not it's equitable, but startups do tend to hog a lot of the headlines and a lot of the glamour and the glitz of being a founder.
\n\nAnd where I was really drawn to was the day-to-day coffee shop owners; for example, that was a big one, or just the fact that 99% of businesses around the world are considered small businesses. And I said there has to be a way to take a lot of the great tools and services that we have enjoyed as startup founders and kind of make that a lot more accessible to the people who really need it. And so, that was really the big bow on top for me to start working on Starcycle.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. It's interesting to think about accessibility and inclusivity, and not just access to funding, but access to tools, access to knowledge, and support, and getting your business up and off the ground.
\n\nJACLYN: Exactly. I think the knowledge piece is a big one. And with knowledge, of course, comes support, as you say, and both of those things require a lot of hands-on education but also guidance. And one thing that I've learned over my career as an operator but also as a serial founder is how much that initial touch point really matters for folks.
\n\nAnd so, when I say that, I mean, just think about the very first time you encountered a new piece of technology and the feeling that inspired in you and how you felt like that new piece of tech, for better or for worse, reinforced, or not, that feeling. I've been really lucky to be at the forefront of helping a lot of people navigate these experiences, from helping fashion brands at the very beginning of my career, helping fashion brands understand social media.
\n\nThis was before sponsored content was a thing. We still called them bloggers back in the day. Yeah, teaching them that social media is going to be an asset for brand marketing, and kind of being on the first wave of tech partnerships, and embracing social media as a platform, to working with artists to get them onboarded and comfortable with streaming. So, I was at Roc Nation at the time when streaming was really just starting to take off. It was the same year that Jay acquired Tidal. And so, there was a seismic shift in how the music industry as a whole was grappling with this new tech.
\n\nFast forward to working with art galleries, probably one of the most difficult technical nuts to crack, so to speak, and working with traditionally folks who reject new technology and are wary of software that doesn't offer the same level of discretion or convenience that they are used to, and working to get them excited about software solutions that are built just for them.
\n\nAnd so, the through line, for me, you know, as I look back, is how can I take something scary, and intimidating, and difficult to understand for your person who is chronically offline, so to speak, and translate that into an experience that they look forward to that makes them see, "Oh, this is not just some sci-fi hubbub; it's not just what the Yahoo's at Silicon Valley are up to; this is going to help me and what I care about"? And that particular thought process, that particular intersection, is what really gets me going every day.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really interesting. And it reminds me of friends that I have who have really deep domain expertise in certain things like nutrition, and coaching, and early childhood intervention and development. And they're asking me, someone who has, like, a connection to founders and startups, about, like, "How do I get my thing going? Like, how do I take this knowledge and build a business around it?" So, maybe you can tell me a little more about what research you're doing with these groups of people, with these small businesses. And what kind of questions are you asking, and what kind of things are you finding?
\n\nJACLYN: Sure. So, I started with a hypothesis, which was this slightly more nebulous notion that everyone will have an AI copilot. And so, I started to workshop what that could look like for a business owner, specifically because 78% of small businesses are owned and operated by one person. And my expertise or experience as a founder is having had a co-founding team where we can fill each other's gaps, and lift each other up, and work on different things. And a lot of small business owners don't have that luxury.
\n\nSo, I said, okay, this is a problem that I have noticed. I am going to explore this to every single nook and cranny I can possibly find. And that led me to experiment with different ways to apply AI to this particular problem. I started looking at the early stage founding stage, where business owners are identifying their next steps to get their next big thing off the ground. They're navigating bureaucracy and figuring out what licenses they need what paperwork they need to file to make certain things a reality. And that, to me, felt like an easy place to start because it is a very well-documented and well-accounted-for space. So, we quickly shipped an early beta feature just to gauge market sentiment and to see what people were really looking for.
\n\nThere really is no shortcut here, in my opinion. It's really about putting in the time and the effort to talk to everyone that is interested in finding a new solution for something that has deeply plagued them in some way or another. In a way, putting on different hats as a psychologist almost, like, understanding where their pain points are really stemming from. Is it, like, an operational thing? Is it an emotional thing? All the way to introducing them to something new, which involves reimagining what that user experience could look like, all the way to just being open and having a clear line of communication.
\n\nI talk to our users almost every day. We're on calls; we're on emails. And I just love hearing from them, and they know that they can come to me and talk to me about things. I've consulted for some of our small business owners before who come to me with different questions like, "Hey, can you help me with this business plan?"
\n\nAnyway, so, through all of those conversations, I started to stitch together a few things. The first being that AI is changing so rapidly, and, of course, this is something that is challenging but also incredibly exciting because no one really knows where it's going. We're all kind of testing out our hypotheses in real-time. We're all building towards that reality we want to see. So, noticing that a lot of co-pilot promises we were still, or at least I feel like, we're still a little bit far away from that. And so, I started examining, okay, what is AI already currently really good at and will only get better at? And how can that be applied to something that all business owners have to face?
\n\nAnd so, I expanded my search into other life stages of a business, and I identified that over hundreds of hours of conversations as the M&A stage and the closure stage. The M&A space is very exciting. It is also very well accounted for. And, currently, I'm spending quite a lot of time looking into the bankruptcy aspect, the end of life, something that, unfortunately, a lot of businesses will have to go through.
\n\nAnd yeah, really studying that space, deeply realizing that we can probably find a, if I may use this as a verb, a "turbo tax" for all of these different key operational moments for every small business, right? So, we can, quote, unquote, "turbo tax" starting a business. We can, quote, unquote, "turbo tax" trying to sell your business. We can turbo tax, closing down your life's work and trying to find a good place to put it to rest.
\n\nVICTORIA: How do you find people to be a part of the research? And how do you make sure that you're being inclusive or, you know, going after the right groups?
\n\nJACLYN: To the best of my ability. I start within my own networks. Luckily, since at this point, I have built quite a lot of friendships and relationships just within founders of all different kinds, I started by reaching out to different founders and just approached it with a lot of curiosity. I was like, "Hey, what are you working on? What is troubling you? How could I help?" And approaching it from a place of "How can I help?" as opposed to "How can you help me?" You being, of course, the founder I was speaking to. Yeah, really just being in the position of I want to learn from you, I would say, in hindsight, has been the key to a lot of folks being willing to speak with me.
\n\nAnd then, of course, on the call itself, when I do manage to get that scheduled, when I speak to them, and doing everything to make them feel heard, to make them feel welcomed. I show up to every single call prepared about this person. I have my questions prepared. Usually, within Calendly, for example, people should fill out what their profile kind of is. So, we do a lot of that pre-work and get that out of the way. And it also helps me prepare for the call. Weirdly enough, it's almost like preparing for a podcast interview.
\n\nAnd then, from those calls, I always ask like, "Hey, I really appreciate you spending time talking to me. Do you know one person who would be willing to do the same thing?" And I would say, nine times out of 10, the answer is "Yes." And then, I get a follow-up email being like, "I loved talking to you. Here's my friend who is also facing a similar thing. I already told them about our conversation. They would love to speak with you." And it just kind of flows from there.
\n\nAnd so, I guess to sum it all up, it really is being thoughtful with your relationships and letting that compounding effect work itself. And at this stage, like, as an early-stage founder, you and your...I don't like the word reputation, but I can't think of a better one right now. Your reputation is really what the currency is, and people typically want to help. And they also want to feel helpful, and they want you to show that they were helpful. And yeah, that has been something that I've seen a lot of success with personally, whether it's through user interviews or approaching it from, like, a sales and partnerships perspective.
\n\nVICTORIA: I agree. I think I found the same thing where, what you want to call it, and it's your reputation or your authenticity and your genuine interest in solving the problem that you're going after. I think a lot of people are, you know, of course, they want to talk about things that are bothering them, and they want to see other founders succeed, and it's part of a community. So, it's really nice to hear that's been working for you.
\n\nJACLYN: I'm so lucky that this particular thing is what really excites me about being a founder is: having that opportunity to have these conversations. Also, at this point, probably my superpower that I feel like I can draw from so many different experiences to be a good sounding board for whoever it is that I'm talking to.
\n\nAnd I remember this so clearly from my previous venture where we were building software for art galleries, and we had some of the most commercially successful artists and art galleries of modern times. And they went on record saying that, you know, they're switching their solutions, or they're coming on board for the first time. And they're not considering any other potential incumbents or competitors simply due to our ability or my ability to talk to them like equals, talk to them like people.
\n\nThey were like, "We spoke to so many founders who were building different kinds of tech solutions for the art industry or the art world. And we always really felt kind of small talking to them because they were throwing a lot of jargon at us. They essentially wanted us to operate under a cloud of confusion so that, hopefully, we would just go along with whatever they say. And you were really the only one who would sit down, take the time to explain, take the time to hear us out, and kind of meet us where we are and see us people."
\n\nAnd I was really kind of taken aback by that. And I do think that advice applies generally, but especially when it comes to speaking to folks who identify so deeply with what they do, like small business owners, it is so key to really just treat them with respect. I mean, ultimately, that's really what it's about. Like, you respect that they know things that you don't, and you don't lord anything you know that they don't over them.
\n\nVICTORIA: I really appreciate that perspective. And I'm curious if maybe there are some core values from your educational background in journalism that flows through into your being a founder and how you have these conversations with people. Are there any core values that translate from that?
\n\nJACLYN: I love to listen. I'm just such a curious person. Yeah, I guess you could say that it is a journalistic approach to, you know, ask open questions and let the person feel like they are steering the conversation, and, you know, being that safe space that they know whatever it is they're saying is being taken seriously.
\n\nOne of my personal philosophies when it comes to founding is that I let the problem tell me how it wants to be solved. I have a general direction, right? Like, my North Star is that I want to use tech to empower founders; in the same way, you could say that you might start writing a piece with the general idea of like, hey, this is what I want to write about. And I'm open to letting my subjects kind of steer where they really care about so that, like, I end up writing something that is compelling for everybody.
\n\nAnd so, yeah, I'm always open to finding the best way. This openness and curiosity, really, has led me to meet some really interesting people and dive through some very fascinating rabbit holes that I might not have done so otherwise.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that's really cool. No, I like that a lot. That's super interesting.
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\n\nVICTORIA: So, in these conversations, you're having in your early discovery process, were there any points where you decided to pivot your strategy based on what you learned?
\n\nJACLYN: I would say that the most interesting point was...I think this is probably, like, the clearest example of...whether it's a pivot, or, like, a redirection, whatever you want to call it. This was before I kind of arrived at the stage of bankruptcy or the idea of bankruptcy, which is where I'm really diving deep to at the moment. I had already spoken to a lot of founders in kind of the early stage of starting the business when I was talking to them about, like, "How can a tool like Starcycle help you on your journey?"
\n\nAnd a lot of them were like, the ultimate milestone was, of course, to sell the business, that they want that ROI, that they want to know that, you know, something that they've worked so hard on was going to end up in great hands. And so, I started examining that side of the spectrum. So, that was, I guess, refocusing number one, which was, okay, I want to understand the buy-sell space, kind of the M&A space, to hear what success factors led people there.
\n\nI spoke to everyone I could think of on that end of the spectrum, you know, people who had sold a business, people who tried to sell but didn't sell, people who acquired a business, people in private equity who are looking to buy and operate a business, you know, different buy and sell marketplaces, so on and so forth.
\n\nAnd this one conversation with the head of M&A at a language company it was a nice chat. And he kind of mentioned as a throwaway, "Oh, by the way, like, one thing we also look at are distressed assets." That was it. And I said, "Okay, let's unpack that a bit," and just kind of left the rest of my questions. And we started going in that direction. And then, I realized it's a different side of the same coin, exploring M&A and closure, because they are, unfortunately, very closely related to one another. They are both on the ends, like, end of the life cycle.
\n\nAnd so, that one comment which might not have occurred, you know, let's say if the person didn't feel like he had a safe space to kind of open up about his process, that has sent me on another journey to really, really dig deep into this very opaque and difficult area, where I'm actually, again, really, really excited to really unpack: How can we help people at the time of need, and how can we use tech to do a lot of the heavy lifting to free them up for very emotionally taxing tasks? Which, of course does happen at that end of the life cycle.
\n\nI still very much believe in the overall idea of using AI to help small business owners end to end, but really, I found this particular wedge because I guess I was open to that. And someone dropped the crumb, and I was like, "Let's take that path. Let's talk about it. "
\n\nVICTORIA: So, it had a high emotional element there, and there's a lot of tasks associated with it that would make it a good use case for AI to support that particular phase of the life cycle?
\n\nJACLYN: Yeah, that's absolutely my hypothesis right now. I've been validating this with different small business owners who have, unfortunately, had to close their business. I'm also talking to bankruptcy attorneys. And so, yeah, I guess we'll see what that process looks like. By the time this episode is up and running, I might have found the right angle to tackle this problem, or I might have just found some other opening to look at. So, I guess it really is up for grabs at the moment, which is a very exciting part of being at the early stage, but, of course, also slightly terrifying [laughs].
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, we'll have to have you back on in a year to check in and see how things have progressed. But it makes sense to me. And in all of my recent experience just hearing from founders around San Diego, it sounds like if you're going to be a founder, you are going to have to shut down a business at least once [laughs]. Like, usually, you found multiple businesses and that means that you do have to close or, you know, go through this final action at least one time. You will be very lonely being a founder, and I can see having support through that time and having it be easy could be really helpful and make it seem, you know, easy and maybe even just, like, make it easier to start things up again, too.
\n\nJACLYN: For sure. And I love that you touched on the starting again because founders, typically, more often than not, have this very stubborn optimism that we're like, we're going to figure it out one day, and we're going to do it. And at the risk of sounding a bit hokey, bankruptcy can be a beautiful thing. It is, of course, incredibly emotionally difficult.
\n\nBut what I find really incredible is the notion of bankruptcy was really born out of this idea of we recognize that you took a huge risk. And even though the risk didn't pan out in the way that we all hoped that it would, we don't want to penalize you further for having taken that risk. So, here is some protection so that when you are ready again, you can start again. And I just find that sentiment very, very powerful. And I've certainly seen that to be true in my own experience.
\n\nSo, this really is, like, I feel like my heart and soul problem, you know what I mean? Again, of course, I'm back to my core value I mentioned earlier. I'm open to letting the problem tell me how it wants to be solved. And so, I'm going through that process again to find, okay, what is it in this journey that I can solve with AI? And so, yeah, we can check back in however long, maybe six months, a year or so, and then see where. I would love for you to hold me to that.
\n\nVICTORIA: Absolutely. I will. I'd love that. Yeah. And, well, on that note, then, what are the biggest challenges you see on the horizon in the next six months?
\n\nJACLYN: I would say the biggest challenge that's coming on the horizon really is, to me, what is very exciting. I alluded to this earlier, but it really is this notion that, of course, we all recognize that AI is disrupting. It has already disrupted a lot of what we know to be true. We're all just testing out our hypotheses in real-time. No one really knows in what direction this wind is blowing. I don't think people could even agree on what AGI means, right? Like, AGI, is it, like, a very, very general thing, or is it AGI for X, AGI for Y? Like, what does that look like? And I don't think there's, like, a consensus on what this looks like, right?
\n\nSo, in a way, every founder building in this space, including myself, we're all just working towards what we think that reality is and what reality it is that we want to see. It's a huge challenge because we're quite literally building what has never really existed before. And it is a feeling that I'm personally, luckily, very familiar with, I get super energized by. We're in the beginning. Everyone says this, right? "We're so early," but we really, really are so early in this new wave. And I'm really looking forward to drawing on all of my experiences being at the forefront of various other big changes and applying them to this very particular change.
\n\nAnd then, of course, I'm also a little bit nervous about this. I think anyone would be nervous knowing that the tide could change at any moment. I'm also not delusional about this per se, but I'm definitely optimistic. I think we're going to see a lot of generational companies built at every single possible intersection of AI and something. So, it's like AI for small businesses, right? Or you could even go even more granular. There's going to be an AI for hair salons. There's going to be AI for coffee roasters. There's going to be just so many ways to capture this new energy and this revolution that I am very intimidated, but I'm really excited about this.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, the gravity and the size and scope of the change, and that being unknown, and also what you mentioned on the tech stack, having that variability and just knowing you might have to pivot or change very quickly, is an exciting challenge as well.
\n\nJACLYN: It is. It definitely is. And, of course, it's a tough one to solve for sure. Any founder who wants to build something, really now is the time to just give it a shot because there are so many intersections up for grabs, and that doesn't come around very often.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really great. And I love your approach to that by just trying to see how can you use your expertise and follow the problem and see what solution comes up that is worth focusing on? So, I really appreciate you sharing that. I'm curious if you know what success looks like six months from now or even five years from now for Starcycle.
\n\nJACLYN: I would say in six months, I would envision, at this stage, having maybe a small suite, but a suite nonetheless, of different aspects of the small business life cycle, the mission-critical stages I spoke about, having the, quote, unquote, "different turbo taxable features" live. And so, we're already able to start really moving the needle for these folks. We have our first test feature live in beta. We're already helping close to 1,200 business owners. So, I'm really looking forward to just increasing that number.
\n\nIn five years, I would really love for us to be at that stage where we are helping small business owners end to end. And so, I do see AI growing at a rate or the capabilities of AI growing at a rate way faster than any of us can imagine.
\n\nSo, I'm going to just throw this out there and say, in five years, I would love for Starcycle to be, like, a true AI COO on every single step of the way, like, a real strategic thought partner, executional partner for your small business that you otherwise wouldn't have. And you're in the trenches with your AI COO, and we're going to help you build the best business you possibly can. And we'll take care of your end to end. And that, I would say, is my ultimate grand vision. So, I guess let's check back and see what happens.
\n\nVICTORIA: I like that. And, you know, that's a really awesome future vision to build towards. And in the immediate term, I'm curious to ask you more about Starcycle and how AI and people work together to give leaders confidence that the COO is giving them good answers and all that.
\n\nJACLYN: One thing that we noticed while we were developing our beta and continuing to improve on our current offering is coming to the realization that we want to focus on what AI is currently already really good at and will only get better over time and, to us, that was data parsing, data optimization, formatting, data extraction. And so, that's where the next immediate stage of product development is going to go is really leaning into this data extraction aspect.
\n\nAnd we feel like this true thought partner; strategic partner thing will happen over time once we have, like, a lot bigger pool of data of your business to work with, where we can connect dots that you might not have otherwise been able to connect, whether it's because you physically do not have the time, or you may not have the knowledge to, let's say, comb through your monthly P&Ls to draw out certain trends in the way that AI can really do for you.
\n\nSo, we're acknowledging the current limitations of AI while maintaining optimism on kind of the long run of what we think AI is going to do. And so, I think for the small business owners that we're currently supporting, we are very much on deck as humans to help them with some of the more strategic moments. And our users know that they can find us anytime. And for a lot of the more data operational action item-driven tasks that they need help with, then AI can step in fairly comfortably and help them in the majority of the cases.
\n\nVICTORIA: That sounds really cool. I like how you broke that up. Do you have anything else you'd like to promote?
\n\nJACLYN: I'm open to so many different kinds of conversations. And every single conversation is helpful. So, please reach out or sign up, try the product.
\n\nWe look at every single survey. I respond to every single survey personally with follow-up questions if you'll allow them. So, I really just want to help anyone who's listening. Whatever problem it is that you're dealing with on your founding journey, I'm here to help. So, in whatever way that I can help you, please let me know. I would love to hear from you.
\n\nVICTORIA: I read in your background that also includes asking you questions about your time working with Rihanna. Is that right? You're open?
\n\nJACLYN: [laughs] Correct. I suppose. Yes. If that is of interest, we can certainly talk about it [laughs].
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that's great. No, I love that, the detail on that. And then, also, we didn't get to talk everything else about your background. You also have that you're an angel investor, and you also are just a general incredible mentor and coach. So, I don't know if there's anything else you wanted to share about that.
\n\nJACLYN: I think part of it is also really driven by my passion to empower folks with technology. And a lot of that component, as we've alluded to multiple times over this podcast, is the educational component. And I think I've been really lucky to be exposed to a lot of new things throughout my life. And I want to play even some small part in helping other people encounter tech in what they perceive to be a safe and gentle way. And so, that's what I'm really excited about.
\n\nI do occasionally write small checks to companies and founders that I believe in. I spend time guest lecturing at colleges and also mentoring young girls and young women. And, generally, I'm an open book if you want to ask me about how I taught myself stop motion video editing to do something for Rihanna, all the way to how on earth did you find it in yourself to do a third company. I just want to help anyone and everyone who wants to make that difference in the world to be that difference that they're looking for.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, you know what always gets me excited about tech? Is when people use tech to solve simple problems that helps everyday people. You know, I'm from Washington D.C. I spend time on the side from doing consulting with big federal agencies. I was helping startup nonprofits that were working to end homelessness and solve communication problems with nonprofit organizations sharing their services to people who needed them and that type of tech.
\n\nAnd I've been in California now for three years, and I've started rebuilding my networking here. And I'm starting to find those people who are working on those kinds of projects. So, I'm really excited to build a little community here in San Diego and to start giving back to some of those groups again.
\n\nJACLYN: Yeah, that's really, really awesome. And that really is what keeps drawing me back to founding is knowing that whether it's founding a non-profit initiative, or a startup, or opening up a coffee shop, like, I keep coming to coffee shops because, of course, I have a deep appreciation for them. But, ultimately, it really is such a tangible way to provide and to give back. And I can't quit.
\n\nVICTORIA: I mean, I could quit. I could quit and just, like, rock climb and be bad at surfing for the rest of my life, but I won't. But yes, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us here today, Jaclyn.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on thoughtbotsocial@vguido.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.
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Host Victoria Guido interviews Krish Ramineni, founder and CEO of Fireflies, who provides insights into the evolution of Fireflies. This AI meeting assistant transcribes and summarizes meetings in multiple languages. He explains the rapid advancements in AI models that have allowed Fireflies to expand its language support and improve its transcription and note-taking capabilities. The conversation shifts to the broader AI industry, where Krish comments on democratizing AI technology, making it more accessible and practical for various applications beyond just number crunching. He emphasizes the importance of AI in enhancing productivity and enabling small teams to achieve large-scale impacts.
\n\nVictoria and Krish explore the future of work with AI, discussing the balance between job creation and replacement. Krish argues that rejecting AI is akin to dismissing essential technological advancements like email, highlighting businesses' need to adapt and embrace AI tools. They also touch on Fireflies' journey to enterprise-level adoption, addressing challenges like data security and compliance. Krish shares his optimism about AI's potential to augment human productivity and creativity, positioning AI as a transformative force that can empower individuals and organizations to achieve unprecedented efficiency and innovation.
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\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido, and with me today is Krish Ramineni, Founder and CEO of Fireflies. Krish, great to be here with you.
\n\nKRISH: It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. Before we dive into what Fireflies is all about and start talking about AI, just in your personal world, what are you learning right now?
\n\nKRISH: Well, I'm traveling this summer, and I've always wanted to speak multiple languages, both for functional reasons and to be able to actually enjoy my travel experiences. So, I'm trying to learn Spanish. I took three years in high school, but I forgot everything, and I'm trying to pick that up. I'm also trying to learn Hindi. We have teammates that are in both Latin America as well as India. And so, both of these would be really valuable [chuckles] to learn. I probably need to get a tutor, something that I'm working on right now.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. How are you learning? Are you using an app? You said you might get a tutor.
\n\nKRISH: Yeah. I started looking at Duolingo. I started doing flashcards. There are online instructors. So, I'm just trying to learn the quickest way possible so that I can get just the basic, common phrases down that I could understand so that I can ask questions and understand what people are saying when they're giving me directions on the streets. So, that's the plan. I don't expect to be a fluent speaker. You know, I always wondered, too, like, since we work in this AI space, if we could build a tool that, in real-time, could translate what I'm saying into the local language and the local language into English using my voice. That would be pretty cool.
\n\nSo, I think our whole mission is around like, eliminating communication barriers. But as I've been trying to learn new languages, this is something I realized is...it's a big world out there, and a lot of people in the U.S. only know one language, whereas people in other countries know multiple languages. And yeah, something that I didn't really appreciate growing up or being in high school. But now I'm realizing, like, the immense benefits of being able to speak multiple languages. So, I'm trying [laughs].
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And I think the benefits even to your brain health and your way of thinking is really exciting. I also learned Spanish from a really young age and grew up with it. And recently, you know, I moved to San Diego, so I have a lot more exposure to people who are just speaking Spanish all the time and getting to overhear little bits of conversation, or at a restaurant, even though right now I usually end up ordering incorrectly [laughs] and getting a little bit of surprise. But it's, like, really sweet to be able to connect with people in the community at that level.
\n\nAnd last year, I went to Japan for a conference for Ruby, and I learned just a little bit of Japanese. And it just made me so happy, for some reason, to be able to say even a couple of words and a couple of phrases and to have other people, like, say that I was doing a good job [laughs]. You know, like, it's just really nice, especially if you're traveling a lot, and you want to actually connect to people to be able to share that language.
\n\nYeah, it's interesting about AI translating there. I will say the translators that we had in Japan they may be caught about 60%. Like, you know, and then with context, it was quite difficult. So, yeah, I'd be curious how AI could address that and even get more personal and being able to use a voice and added more information into that, so you get that full translation.
\n\nKRISH: Yeah. Local languages and, like, the common phrases. So, for example, the Spanish that's spoken in Spain is going to have different phrases than the ones spoken in Mexico or in other places, right? So, that's also really interesting to think about how local dialects, accents all play into it.
\n\nGrowing up, I used to love watching Bollywood Indian movies, and I would need subtitles. And I slowly started to get to a place where I can still understand what's going on without subtitles. It's really interesting that some of those jokes and some of the things that are said don't really translate exactly into English, right? Like, someone that's a native English speaker wouldn't quite get it. There's a lot more to language than just the words that are used. It's like the culture, the phrases, the people. And so, that's the beauty. That's the beauty of this world. There's so much diversity.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, I'm curious. As a founder of an AI app that takes recordings of people's meetings and turns it into summarized language, are the models based primarily on English, obviously, right away? And how are you thinking about incorporating other languages into your model?
\n\nKRISH: When we started, it was primarily English. Fireflies would take notes in English. It would transcribe English meetings. And then, this past year, we started support for 60 different languages, including Spanish, French, German, Hindi, and so many more. And on top of the transcription, we now can also do AI note-taking in some of these other languages. So, if you have a meeting in Portuguese, the summaries and notes will be in Portuguese.
\n\nWe have a big global presence today with Fireflies. It's used in over a hundred countries and lots of different languages. And I would say the foreign language segment of our market is growing incredibly quickly. And we also hear requests from people where they have people that speak different languages because they have global teams in meetings. And it would be super helpful to be able to translate and transcribe and so that when they look back, they can get help and understand or clarify certain things.
\n\nYeah. I think language when we started, and most of these LLMs (large language models) were primarily built around English, right? Especially transcription and speech. But there are companies coming out that are now building these models that give better representation to other languages. And we will have AI that will be able to understand and speak many different languages. And just the rate at which this technology is changing, I'm super impressed.
\n\nI read somewhere that they were building a model back in the day before the whole ChatGPT, where they were using reinforcement learning and transfer learning, where they were able to teach it one language. And it was able to quickly pick up another language, even though it wasn't taught to them. So, AI works in very magical ways [laughs].
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really cool. I wish that I worked that way with Portuguese because I was like, oh, I know Spanish okay sometimes. And then, I was like, but Portuguese when I read it, the words make sense, but then hearing it, the pronunciation being totally different, it's like [laughs] a long way to go. But that's really interesting. And you've already started to talk a little bit about the changes in the industry and what you're seeing as the new capabilities for AI. Can you tell me more about that? What other changes do you see in the industry in the last, like, year or even, like, a couple of months?
\n\nKRISH: At least in the last two years, people's perception of how hard it is to deploy AI has changed. Before, you needed to have a PhD. You needed to write a lot of code, and the AI was not practical. Now, AI is just a few lines of code. You don't even have to be technical to deploy AI. And you can ask it to do a lot more than crunching numbers, and that's what's so powerful. And we are getting these generalized models where, in the past, if you had, like, an AI model, it could do one thing like classification or sentiment analysis.
\n\nRight now, I have AI that can give me French poetry. It can generate images. It can summarize things. It can help me have a conversation with it and learn how to improve my speaking skills. AI is trained on the web, right? And whatever is on the web, it's a reflection of that. So, that also comes with the good and the bad. The good being that it knows what most humans feel and think and can relate to. And the bad, though, is there's a lot of nonsense on the web, so a lot of the bias, a lot of the information that it's getting.
\n\nAI today can, with confidence say the wrong answer and believe that that is the right answer. So, that is one of the risks. Some people call this hallucination, where the AI goes haywire and wonky. But I'm hoping that with time, that does get solved; we have better guardrails and parameters. Some people will say that hallucination is a feature and not a bug because it's letting the AI be more expressive. But everyone's understanding of truth should not be, I think, different. Like, I think there is one set of truth sometimes, and you don't want the AI to misinterpret that.
\n\nSo, yeah, I think it's an exciting time. And more people like our company are embracing and adopting AI into their core products. And it's causing incredible productivity gains. But it's nowhere perfect. People talk about this AGI, (artificial general intelligence). I think we're a little bit away from that, but we're moving fast. Like, this stuff is happening at an exponential rate.
\n\nIn technology, there was this Moore's law, right? With the number of transistors and how amazing and exponentially better the chips got. We saw that with storage, right? The cost of cloud storage when it first came out was so expensive. Now it's super cheap. If you remember, back in the day, you got, like, a USB card where it could probably store, like, 10 megabytes. Now it can do, like, 10 gigabytes to, like, one terabyte. And the cost is, like, super affordable.
\n\nIf you think about TVs that came out in the past, right? Like, getting a 60-inch TV was super expensive. Like, a 40-inch TV was super expensive. Now everything is, like, LCD. You get, like, 60, 70 inches. And the price is the same as what a 40-inch TV was back then.
\n\nSo, AI is all of that and some more. It's moving at a rapid pace. Like, technology, as an industry, like, it's moving so quickly, and AI is moving more quickly than what most people can keep up with. So, that has pros and cons. We can dive into that more. But, yeah, things are changing on a weekly basis, not on a yearly basis right now.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And there's a few directions we can go in from there, I think, that are really interesting, right? There's, like, the future of work with AI because I can relate to a feeling of fear and anxiety about what is this new technology? Am I going to lose my job? And when I talk about it with people I'm mentoring, I try to position it more as this is going to change the way we work. You're still going to need people to do stuff.
\n\nBut if you're rejecting AI because you think it's just a fad or it's just silly, like, I think it is fundamentally changing the way people are going to do their jobs if you pursue that. And I think if you're capable with using AI as a tool, you're going to be more powerful than you've ever been in your job in most cases.
\n\nKRISH: Rejecting AI is like someone rejecting email for faxing and sending paper mail by hand. You just cannot compete, right? Imagine if you were a business that said, "I don't believe in AI. I'm going to do everything old school." You'd be like, today, okay, cool. You should do that. And imagine if you're a business today that says, "I don't use email. I will physically mail everything to you handwritten." So, that's what it's going to be like in a few months to a year. Like, this stuff is happening quick.
\n\nAnd I always like to say that AI will it create more jobs? Yes. Will AI replace jobs? Yes. But the probability of someone using AI who will replace you is far greater. So, AI isn't going to replace you as much as someone using AI is going to replace you. It's a skill set that we have to all learn, just like how we had to learn to use a computer, to use the internet, to use the smartphone. This is the same thing here. Like, we're going to all have to learn to use it and learn to interact and gel with AI in the workplace.
\n\nVICTORIA: Absolutely. And how does that relate to what you learned in your journey with Fireflies and talking to people about AI? How have those conversations gone forward?
\n\nKRISH: Fireflies at the core is this AI meeting assistant that joins your meetings. It takes notes. It helps you remember what was discussed before a meeting, during a meeting, and after a meeting. It helps me recall any information that I talked about. If we met six months ago and I'm meeting you again, it has the notes for me. It lets me search back through it. It lets me ask it questions about what you talked about. What were the next steps? What were the action items?
\n\nSo, it's giving me structure to my life because a lot of my life is having meetings with lots of people and having many conversations, and then recalling those conversations and staying on top of that. It gives me structure in terms of what I do day in and day out.
\n\nI always believe that work originates from conversations. Meetings are some of the most valuable conversations that we tend to have. It's also very expensive for an organization to have meetings. Because when you get four people in a room who are all making six figures and spending an hour having meetings, that information, whatever is discussed, can have a huge cost to the business. But it can also have a huge potential to move the business in the right direction. So, organizing all of that knowledge that originates from meetings was the initial vision of Firefly.
\n\nBefore all of this AI and ChatGPT hype, that was what we'd set out to do. The LLMs and AI help us do that job better: summarize the meetings better, generate better action items, create meeting outlines, allow you to search back. Instead of searching by keywords, you can now ask specific questions and talk to AI. So, this is what AI enables people to do, especially with Fireflies, is you can now interact with Fireflies like you would with a teammate, and that has changed the way people feel and use our product.
\n\nAnd people don't come out and say, "Hey, you're replacing secretaries. You're replacing the intern that I've hired to take notes for me. Like, you are replacing the job that the new hire has to do because it's a rite of passage." 95% of people will not make that argument because it's actually silly because your assistant, your interns, your new hires have better things to do. And these are the mundane, monotonous stuff that you should delegate to AI. Obviously, you can have humans review all of that, have their own, you know, take on it, generate reports. But it's actually leveling them up to be more productive and be more valuable to your organization.
\n\nSo, I think there's a lot of pieces of AI that will do the same. You know, other technologies like, for example, AI that generates images or graphic designs that's not going to replace the graphic designer. It's going to allow the graphic designer to be able to create many iterations, be more creative. Like, if they don't have the technical skills to use certain pieces of software, it can help them ease that barrier to entry and give them more assets to work with. So, I think of AI in the workplace as how can we augment human productivity by giving each and every person a superpower?
\n\nVICTORIA: And you started this eight years ago now. So, you were really, like, ahead of the curve in terms of all these AI companies coming out. I'm wondering, what challenges did you have early on, and how did you overcome them?
\n\nKRISH: When we started, this was not obvious, like, that we should be doing this. It sounded obvious to us. We felt like every person in the workplace deserved an AI assistant that takes notes, not just the C-suite who, has a secretary or a business admin. And it felt like it's so obvious. It should exist. We should build it. And we need to create the experience like an assistant that follows you around.
\n\nBut when we started, there were so many uncertainties. Can this technology work? Can this technology scale? Is the transcription going to be accurate? Can you actually even summarize things? And does that stuff make sense? It's a new behavior. Are people willing to entertain AI assistants and meeting assistants? So, every step of the way, there's a technology risk, a go-to-market risk. You are doing a sales risk. Like there are so many like pieces to the puzzle that you have to figure out. And you have to peel each layer of the onion and get to the core. So, I think it's been quite a journey.
\n\nWe've been lucky in a few ways, right? Because I do believe that luck is sometimes about being at the right place at the right time. But those that always keep showing up are going to be able to get lucky from time to time, right? If you take a thousand shots, at least one of them will make it. That was my philosophy. We tried. We built seven or eight different products that all somehow worked or utterly flopped. And eventually, we got closer and closer and closer to the truth of what customers needed. And that led us to build the version of Fireflies that exists today.
\n\nSo, it's definitely not easy, but there were three core phases to Fireflies or three core movements that allowed Fireflies to exist. One is speech recognition and transcription fundamentally got better. It got more accurate and more affordable. Before, it was ridiculously expensive. It would take a dollar per minute of transcription, and you needed humans to do it. But these AI engines, speech engines, got better.
\n\nThe second thing is when we launched Fireflies, the pandemic happened a few weeks later. Everyone went remote. Video conferencing became more mainstream, and people were actually having Zoom fatigue and way too many meetings. And they needed a way to organize all those meetings they're having, jumping from one meeting to the next. And Fireflies got pulled forward, and a lot of people wanted to have it in meetings and help them around. And that helped us grow exponentially, virally. To this day, Fireflies has taken notes for over 16 million people across 300,000 organizations.
\n\nAnd since the launch in January 2020 to where we are, the first two to three years were trial and error, right? From 2016 to 2020. We built our product in 2018, 2019, launched in 2020. The pandemic accelerated the adoption. And then, you have this new LLM wave that comes out at the end of 2021, which allowed us to make the product fundamentally more valuable. And everything got better from the notes, to the summaries, to the search. Everything got better. And we crossed the chasm from where people thought, "Huh, this is a cool idea, but I don't think it's going to work," to "Holy crap, this is one of the best use cases for generative AI and LLMs."
\n\nAnd yeah, like, it was luck in terms of being there when this movement was happening. I think a lot of AI companies can say that. But it also took a little bit of fortitude to be able to be doing this several years before the stuff came out, right? Once a gold rush occurs, everyone's going to want to go in and then build something. But if you were already there, and you were searching and searching, and you were very close to something, and then you discover the gold rush, you're going to have a head start, and that's what happened with us.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, you said 7 to 8 product iterations, and I was like, uh, you really had to go through an emotional roller coaster, I'm sure early days. But you were lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time and have a good picture of what the problem space was. It's really incredible to hear that.
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\n\nVICTORIA: Why don't I move forward a little bit into where you are now, where you have GDPR and SOC 2 compliance, and you're, you know, really doing well. Like, what were the challenges in getting that product to enterprise level?
\n\nKRISH: We let the customers pull us in the direction that needed for us to go. A lot of times, we try to see, okay, what is every friction point along the way? What would it take for larger organizations to adopt it? There is incredible product value. People have been saying it. But I need these sorts of features and capabilities in order to deploy it inside my organization. And we are handling meetings, which is sensitive. And so, we have to be able to give them more access controls, give them more admin features.
\n\nYou know, we have a policy at Fireflies where we say, "We do not train on your data by default." So, most AI companies they're using their customer data to train models. We do not do that. So, we made that explicitly clear. CIOs love hearing that because when they look at us and other potential competitors, those competitors are bragging outside, saying, "Hey, we built this amazing model training on all of this data." And we say, "We don't do that." So, unless you want us to build something custom for you, we will not train on your data by default.
\n\nThe other thing we said is, "Look, you own your data. If you want to delete it anytime, you can. You can request to have the data deleted. If you were a participant on a meeting and you don't feel comfortable with the data, you can request the host to delete it, or you can come to us, and we'll delete that data for you." Like, you have rights to that. And we put everything in a very customer-centric worldview, and that usually aligns with the big enterprises. That aligns well with a lot of the folks that want to use your service.
\n\nBecause when you're using a new technology, the first question people are going to have is, "Does it work?" The second question they're going to have is, "Is it safe?" And with AI, a lot of people think about the safety of using the tech. And when you're building for a B2B enterprise, we had to make sure we put in the hard work to tailor our product to the needs of those customers.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really interesting. And maybe you could say more about why would a company want to train a model on their own data and create an LLM like that?
\n\nKRISH: Are you talking about customers wanting us to train something for them?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes. I've heard this idea from a few different people, actually, where they want to be able to build an LLM and build a model based on a company's own knowledge and their own information. So, maybe you could say more about that.
\n\nKRISH: I think it's really around fine-tuning and personalizing the AI. Now you can train on models. You can do fine-tuning. You can do other parameters. But it's really giving everyone their own personal experience with AI. We can do this today even without training just by understanding your preferences, and we want to continue to build towards that.
\n\nSo, yeah, we believe that every person inside an organization should have their own personal AI note-taker, and no two meeting notes will be the same because each set of notes is unique to you, your meetings, what your team wants. And so, that, to us, is like a vision we try to build towards. AI can bring about insane level of personalization, and that's one of the reasons why people would want to train their own models based on their like, knowledge graph, and information.
\n\nVICTORIA: How do you think about the cost of building and running these AI tools from an infrastructure cost perspective? How does that translate to your cost for your customers, that kind of thing?
\n\nKRISH: AI is expensive. The unit economics...I think a lot of people are taking for granted that it is insanely expensive to run these models to use a cloud provider of these AI models. Some people are spinning up their own models. It is insanely expensive. But the good news is the cost is going down at an accelerated pace, and it's just up to whether the pace of the cost decrease will outweigh the amount of spending some of these startups are doing. And that's why some of these companies are raising tons of money as well because they don't really have a monetization strategy. They have no revenue. They're making lofty goals that "This AI is going to do this. It's going to do this. It's going to replace this function in your org."
\n\nBut who's going to pay for it? How are you going to make people pay for it? Is it going to be subscription-based? Is it going to be utility-based? How much upfront cost is going to be there to train these models? And what if you do all that work, and then you deploy an LLM; you're an infrastructure provider, and no one cares? What if you're an application layer, and you're giving all of this stuff away for free and then eventually realize you can't get people to pay for it?
\n\nSo, there are so many open questions for these companies where the technology is changing quickly. The cost is changing quickly, and consumer preferences are also changing quickly. We'll have to see. Only time will tell because there's a hundred companies out there, all raising a hundred million dollars. We know that all of them are not going to make it, a few are. So, it'll be interesting to see what happens once the dust settles. But I think people should take that very seriously because you can't always expect to be bailed out by investors if you don't know how to utilize AI and how to build for cost.
\n\nAnd I think a lot of investors tell startups to not worry about that. They say, "Don't worry about the cost. You know, as long as someone's there to pump you money, you just keep building, like, the best product out there." That works for some companies. I just don't believe it should be the only strategy that someone should take.
\n\nVICTORIA: What if you build it and no one cares? It'd be so heartbreaking [laughs], but it happens, yeah.
\n\nKRISH: That's 95% of startups that die is because no one cares.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. Yeah. And I'm curious, like, what other use cases do you see as being the most relevant for AI? Like, what problems does it really solve very well? I mean, note-taking, obviously, one of them.
\n\nKRISH: I'm really excited about all of these AI tools that can write code for you. And maybe they can't replace a software engineer, but could you make a developer 10x more productive? And could today AI start off as a copilot for writing code for you to eventually building you full-fledged apps, right? And imagine what that would do in terms of reducing the barrier for so many people to be able to create their own personal apps and tools. Easier said than done.
\n\nBut I think what's really working really well, whether it's with GitHub or some of these other AI tools, is, can it actually write code for you? And I think that's a wonderful use case. It'll still need a lot more fleshing out, but I am bullish on that use case for sure.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. I'm hopeful that companies will figure out how to use AI to level up engineers because right now, we have the problem of the flattening of the middle where you have really senior people who are very in high demand. And then, you have a lot of people with very little experience who really want a career in technology. So, I see that as an opportunity, but also a risk that some people will create things with AI code and sell it. And it'll just be a hot mess [laughs]. But, you know, that's kind of the risk it is even if you're paying real developers at the same time, so...
\n\nKRISH: Yeah. I think AI will take a C player and make them a B player, maybe a B player into a B plus player. And then, it can take an A player and make them, like, A plus. So, I think it just levels the playing field a little bit, eventually to a point where everyone in the org is going to get a little bit more productive.
\n\nAnd I also think that small teams are going to be able to do incredible things. You, as a small team will be able to compete at a larger scale with some of the bigger companies. You know, Sam Altman said maybe there's a chance that a 10-person company is going to build a billion-dollar market cap organization that goes public. So, all of those are possibilities, too.
\n\nI love the idea of solopreneurs and people that run their own, like, small businesses, you know, three to four people, super lean. Obviously, I'm in a venture-backed world, so I can't necessarily run that, but I am very excited by that potential. And I like those types of people that are entrepreneurial and don't need a lot of CapEx in order to get started. AI will allow a lot more solopreneurs to thrive. If social media created a market for people to have, like, a full-time job as influencers, I think AI can create a market for people to have full-time jobs as creators of products, goods, and services that can be managed with just, like, a few people.
\n\nVICTORIA: That is really interesting. I'm curious if you want to...let's say you're meeting a founder or an entrepreneur, and they're AI-curious, but they don't really know where to get started or how to step their toe into the water. What advice would you give them?
\n\nKRISH: I think the best place to start is by building and building something for yourself that you yourself would use. Try all these different AI products that are out there. Look at what's trending in the news in terms of which...every week, some new model is being deployed, some new changes are being rolled out. Google is rolling something out. Facebook is rolling out something. OpenAI is rolling out something. So, try to keep pace. It's going to be tough.
\n\nAnd then, go play around and tinker with these tools. Like, you should be a tinkerer first. You should like to build things. You don't have to be an engineer to get started, but you need to be able to go and get your hands dirty, roll up your sleeves, and play around with these tools. The belief and conviction comes with you yourself gaining experience through understanding these tools. You know, you can't tell someone, you know, how to make a music video or make a movie without ever having used a camera before, right? So, it's the same way. You've got to learn how to use the tools first.
\n\nVICTORIA: And are there any yellow or red flags you would tell people to watch out for if they're thinking about AI or thinking about using a new AI product?
\n\nKRISH: I think for those founders that want to build large venture-scale businesses, and they're trying to bite off way more than they can chew, you should consider focusing. These are the sort of folks that maybe are not making a sequence of bets. They're trying to throw a hundred darts and see what sticks. And I usually think that's a strategy that will fail.
\n\nYou need to understand why you're building, what you're building, who you're building for. Don't just build it because the technology is cool. You know, not to pick on any products out there, but there's a lot of hardware devices coming out recently that have AI backed into them, right? And you wonder, why the heck is this a hardware device? Couldn't this be just an app on my phone? Like, why do I need to go spend $200, or $600, or $1000 buying this device that has a lot of limitations?
\n\nThe reason you built it because you thought the technology was cool. But by the time it got to production, it has a lot of faults. And you're trying to get people to change their behavior and take money and pay for this? That's tough. And I think VCs are falling for that as well, like, in funding tons of this money into these sorts of companies. Some can argue that it will get better with time and iterations.
\n\nBut I personally stay away from hardware. I don't want to touch anything related to hardware right now because we don't even know what the new form factor is going to be. But the hardware people should ask themselves, "Should this be a standalone device, or could it just be something on my iPhone as an app?" That is something that's really, really interesting.
\n\nThe space that I'm most excited about outside of AI for the workplace is robotics. And I've been seeing a lot of really cool products where they're trying to build these AI humanoid-like robots that can do a series of tasks. They're not like the machines in, like, an industry or a factory. But they can make you coffee. They can clean the dishes. They can cook you some food. I think the market for that is massive. Like, if that stuff works, people are going to be able to pay a lot of money for it. Like, the amount you'd pay for a car, you would pay for a utility-based robot inside your house and, like, with nice financing options and stuff. So, whoever cracks that is going to be really, really successful.
\n\nThere's people companies that have raised a lot of money solving that. While I'm generally not bullish about hardware little devices, I am very bullish about, like, these general-purpose robots that I think the potential is immense. Like imagine every household having one or two of those; what that means for domestic productivity, like, someone's folding the laundry, someone is cleaning up the house, taking out the trash. These are jobs to be done, yeah.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, then what would my husband do [laughter]? I'm just kidding. I don't want to replace him. No, I think it's interesting especially just, like, thinking about elder care, and having someone in the home, and watching, and cleaning up, and all of those tasks and being able to live independently. I could see that having a huge potential. So, also, obviously, I think robots are cool. It's the title of the podcast. So, I'm very pro-robot [laughs] in most cases, not all cases. Yeah. Well, that's super interesting. Let's see. Do you have anything else that you would like to promote?
\n\nKRISH: You know, besides embracing AI and using, you know, these tools and services, I would really be excited to hear about people's ideas on, like, how they're using AI in the workplace. Everyone has so many creative ways to go about it. So, each week, we discover new ways people are using Fireflies, right? Some people use it for taking notes. Some people use it to be able to take customer quotes from calls. So, they can literally ask our AI, "Hey, go through these, like, past two customer calls and pull out all of the nice things they said about us, and then turn that into a soundbite that I can share with my marketing team so we can run a marketing campaign on that" So, there's just so many interesting use cases.
\n\nI do want to say that voice is going to be a great form factor for AI. We work in the voice space. Like, I love talking to my AI during the meeting. So, I think that's going to be something that I would say is if you are an end user in the workplace, think about how you would use voice to get work done and turn your words into AI. And we're trying to solve that at Fireflies. And if you are interested in that space, we would love to talk to you. And if you have some interesting use cases that you want to see for Fireflies, please send them our way.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And it's interesting when you bring up voice. One thing I was surprised about with my parents, actually, obviously, a generation older, I got them an Alexa Dot that I got from a conference. I didn't think they would ever use it, but they actually use it all the time. They're, like, asking for recipes, setting timers, and doing things like that. And, yeah, if you have, like, an AI voice, like, "Send an email to this person" or, like, "Open this task and do it." Maybe I would actually get some more tasks done [laughs]. I could just do it over voice. Sometimes like, the keyboard and the screen is part of the delay. That's really interesting. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.
\n\nDo you have any questions for me before we sign off?
\n\nKRISH: I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what are the biggest risks with AI you foresee for people, and what makes you more skeptical about AI?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, you touched on a little bit earlier when you said about the cost of AI and the cost-benefit analysis; I don't think is always there for every single use case, right? There are some use cases where it is so clear there is a benefit for that. Note-taking is one of them. There's a million professions, I think, that would benefit from having AI note-taking apps.
\n\nI think the risks which we've already seen that impact people, you mentioned the biases, and things like people getting denied health care, getting longer prison term sentences. You know, the way that they might blindly incorporate these algorithms into decisions that really reinforce biases because of this historical data that it's based on.
\n\nI think whenever someone asks me about the risks of AI and, like, people losing jobs, or, you know, rogue AI taking over the world, I always bring it back to that some AI is already hurting people, and it should be stopped, and people should be educated on it. Like, the big scary AI conversation is almost a distraction to what's really going on, and we need to all be smarter about it.
\n\nAt the same time, I love using AI. I think it really can, like you said, get your productivity up 100%. In some cases, like, you can just do so much more so much faster. And I see that potential. And I think that there's always that balance, right? Like, you have to be able to be aware and embrace both if you're going to stay current. But there are some people who still send faxes and still do everything by mail. But, you know, it's like technology never really dies. There's just more of it in different ways, right?
\n\nKRISH: Absolutely [laughs]. That's awesome. Well, thank you. This was great.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. Yeah, I really enjoyed our conversation.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
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Host Victoria Guido welcomes Wendell Adams, CEO of PrimeLab.io, as he talks about his lifelong passion for technology and entrepreneurship. Wendell shares his experiences, from hacking electronics as a child to studying various fields in college and eventually starting his own business. He emphasizes the importance of understanding market needs and leveraging language to make technology accessible. Wendell's drive to improve encryption and data security led to the formation of PrimeLab; a company focused on making encryption functional and accessible without compromising performance.
\n\nWendell discusses PrimeLab's strategic direction and market fit. He outlines the challenges and opportunities in the entertainment industry, emphasizing the need for innovative solutions that respect user control and privacy. Wendell also shares insights into how PrimeLab's technology can democratize data access and enhance business processes. The episode concludes with a reflection on the future of AI and encryption technologies and Wendell's advice for aspiring entrepreneurs to think critically and creatively about their ventures.
\n\nTranscript:
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\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Wendell Adams, CEO at PrimeLab io. Wendell, thank you for joining us.
\n\nWENDELL: Thanks for having me. So, question, actually, where'd you guys come up with the name?
\n\nVICTORIA: You know, I have asked this before, and I think I remember the answer. I might have to go back to the 500th episode to get it, but I think it was just robots was already kind of a theme at thoughtbot. I mean, thoughtbot, obviously, has robot in the name. Joe might have the best answer. And we have our special co-host, Joe Ferris. Who better to answer?
\n\nJOE: [chuckles] Yes, I'm not sure who better to answer, probably Chad. I don't remember the answer either, but happy to be here to speculate with the two of you. It comes from the blog. We named the blog Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots and then used it for our podcast. But I don't remember where the blog name came from.
\n\nWENDELL: It kind of reminds me of the Robot Wars thing, like, where they would have competitors driving around the robots and then smashing into each other, trying to flip them over and disable them.
\n\nJOE: That was excellent. I also watched that.
\n\nWENDELL: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, it's a pretty great name. I really enjoy being a host. And, you know, I go out to local San Diego events and meet people and introduce myself as a co-host of Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots. It's usually pretty funny [laughter], which is where I met you, Wendell; we met at a San Diego CTO Lunches, which was super fun.
\n\nWENDELL: Yeah, I always enjoy any type of tech conversation or anything else. I thought that was a lot of fun to sit down and just talk with people and talk about what they're working on.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that, yeah. And before we dive into the tech and get to hear more about PrimeLab, I just want to start a little more socially question. What did you do last weekend, Wendell?
\n\nWENDELL: It was my father-in-law's birthday party at Legoland. We took my daughters my mother-in-law, and we all went to Legoland. It was a lot of fun. Although, honestly, I prefer the San Diego Zoo over Legoland, so...
\n\nVICTORIA: Can you please describe what Legoland is to people who may not know?
\n\nWENDELL: Okay. Legoland is based in Carlsbad, and it's really ideal for, like, four to nine-year-olds. And they have, like, miniatures of all the different cities. Actually, the SF miniature that they have is crazy detailed with Chinatown and everything else. They did an amazing job there. They actually...I think they just redid the San Diego part of it. But the miniatures are really cool, seeing all this stuff.
\n\nThey have different rides performers, but it's definitely, like, one of those things that it's more for kids to go and kind of experience. If you're an adult, you're going to love a lot of the processes that go into place, like how they built things, but mostly, yeah, it's very much kid rides and stuff like that.
\n\nVICTORIA: I imagined it to be, like, life-size Lego buildings, but maybe I'm...that's very interesting all those other things you could do there.
\n\nWENDELL: Well, like, they have the One World Trade Center, and I think it's, like, 25 feet tall. It is, like, the replica of it. It's kind of interesting, too, because not all the Legos that they build, they're huge, are solid Legos. So, it's like, they'll do where it's like, on the outside, they'll do a base, and then they'll build it. There's a replica of a Lamborghini. That one's life-size. But it's heavy. It's, like, 2,000 pounds, something like that.
\n\nVICTORIA: Is that as much as a regular Lamborghini weighs, too, 2,000 pounds? It can't be that far up.
\n\nWENDELL: I don't know. No, I don't think it...no, it couldn't be.
\n\nVICTORIA: I have no idea how much cars [laughs] weigh. What about you, Joe? Did you do anything fun this weekend?
\n\nJOE: Not a lot. It was supposed to be my son's first soccer game ever, but it rained here in Boston, so they postponed it. Sunday he went to my parents' house for a grandma day, and so I did nothing. I ate cookies.
\n\nWENDELL: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Wait, what kind of cookies were they, though?
\n\nJOE: They were chocolate chip cookies.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's so good.
\n\nJOE: They were good. They were brown butter chocolate chip cookies, I should say.
\n\nVICTORIA: Were they homemade, or did you get them somewhere?
\n\nJOE: They were. We made them in this home.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that's the best. Yeah, love that. I got some fancy cookies that someone else made, and they were also [laughs] very good. And then, yeah, I've just been having cookies pretty much every day. So, that's been my time.
\n\nWENDELL: My mother-in-law recently made me peanut butter cookies, and those are my favorite kind of homemade cookies.
\n\nVICTORIA: Okay. Noted. You'll get a post-podcast gift of peanut butter cookies [laughter]. I love that. It's so great to hear a little bit more about each of you as, like, in a personal way before we dive into AI. And tell me a little bit more about your background and what led you to PrimeLab.
\n\nWENDELL: I've always kind of, like, been a hacker, so to speak, just from a technical standpoint. My one grandfather was an engineer. He worked for GM designing, like, assembly arms and stuff like that. And then my other grandfather was a master electrician. So, I've always been the person that, like, just worked on things, got stuff together.
\n\nYou know, there's a lot of stories. Like, there's the story about when I broke my grandmother's workbench, rocking bench out front, and it was all aluminum. I remember telling my grandfather, and he's like, "Oh, what are you going to do?" And I was like, "Buy a new one?" He's like, "You got money?" I said, "No." And he said, "Well, you better figure how to make it then." So, ironically, it's half aluminum, half wood. We took wood, sanded it down, and stuff.
\n\nSo, it's just like I've always been an entrepreneur. I've always been interested in this kind of stuff. I used to hack VCRs, and PlayStations, and all kinds of stuff. I always liked parts and components and rewiring things. And as I got older, I also really liked math and all those things. And I wanted to understand more about how the world works, so to speak, like why it works the way it does, not just from a technology standpoint. But why do people think the way that they do? Why do things behave the certain way they do?
\n\nSo, initially, I started going to college. I thought I might be a math professor, and then decided to get degrees in business, economics, finance, marketing, consumer product goods, and comparative religions. So, while I was in college, I started working on, like, hacking, different video games, writing JavaScript, writing Java, all kinds of stuff. And then, eventually, even writing mobile applications early on, and then just analyzing because I always liked to build phones, too. I would take apart phones. And I really was curious about, like, how to make things faster, more efficient, and better. So, now to bring it down, like, how to make things accessible, where it benefits some of the smallest people and make it where it's a greater opportunity for someone to come out ahead of something.
\n\nLike, one thing that I learned from my marketing degree is language matters. So, it's like, all the marketing it's not anything special. It's just they intentionally create language barriers that cause people not to feel as accessible with it. And then, like, you hire a consultant or something to just basically teach you about those language barriers. And I think every industry has, like, SAT, or LTM, or something like these abbreviations that mean a lot of different things. And it causes bottlenecks if you don't speak the language. So, understanding the language but also learning about how was very helpful from a standpoint on the marketing side. And I always try to figure out how do I make this accessible to people who don't understand that language?
\n\nVICTORIA: And what was the turning point where you decided to start PrimeLab, and what made you realize there was a company there?
\n\nWENDELL: It was a project I've been working on since at least 2011, honestly. And just as a heads up, PrimeLab as a whole works with encrypted data for AI models and to speed that up and everything else. So, early on, I was very obsessed with how advertising works through, like, stealing user data, which stealing is different, here or there, the sense of privacy, the sense of, like, how things could run, and the sense of messaging.
\n\nAnd initially, a lot of it was using encryption as an overlay in, like, the pixel application space, which is always a way to hack or get into it. And it slows everything down. So, I had always been working on trying to figure out how do you speed up and embed security so it's actually functional? And it took a while to figure out, like, give encryption functionality, like, make the encryption something that you could actually execute on.
\n\nAnd, actually, one of the things that really helped is the blockchain space there's a lot of, like, hash trees and everything else, like, where people are innovating in that. That's really helped innovate encryption as a whole from understanding, like, Merkle trees, hash graphs, and everything else to make it more functional and faster. Because people are trying to speed up distributed networks and stuff, but the actual technology that they built, like Hedera is...What Hedera has done with Hashgraphs and everything else—really amazing. I'm glad that they open-source stuff like that.
\n\nBut it's also really interesting just to see how things push forward. So, like, when I first started, like, RAM was, like, 256 in a phone. So now, you know, you can get multiple gigabytes, which makes it a lot more capable to do encryption, decryption, and work more in the functional space of things. The bigger problem that you have on the data part is how an application communicates because there's so many levels of abstraction. Like, you have the Swift language that communicates into something else that then communicates into something else.
\n\nLike, right now, we're talking on a system that's recording us over the internet through a browser, all those different things. And it's an approximation of what the data is and what we sound like. It's not an absolute. So, I was really interested in when you have absolutes, and you can verify those absolutes, what can you do with that?
\n\nA few years ago, I felt like we got to a point where we could actually execute those things and actually deliver on that. So, therefore, I decided to start PrimeLab with my co-founder, who I really liked and enjoyed. And we've had a lot of really great advisors, where people have helped us continuously. Over, you know, the decade-plus of working on this, I've gotten a lot of input from some of the smartest people I know, from people who have designed full server racks for AWS to literally a good friend of mine that built cloud storage. His name's on the patent for it. So, that kind of stuff has really helped me understand and build this where it can communicate the lowest possible level.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, and to just recap and reflect that back a little bit, it sounds like you were always interested in how to make encryption faster and lighter weight, and so you could build it in and build in security without impacting the performance of the applications. And then meeting your co-founder and the advancement of technology, this time a couple of years ago, led you to think, okay, let's really go forward with this.
\n\nWENDELL: Kind of rephrasing, I was always interested in control. So, like, one of the things that really interested me...so, I started a video game store buying and selling, like, video games and trading cards and stuff when I was roughly ten and a half or so, and then sold it roughly when I was 17, which is how I paid for quite a bit of college and likewise. But the things that really interested me about that is it went out of business three to four months afterwards because the person who basically bought the rest of it bought too much of Madden. And Madden, at this time, the margins were, like, a buck, as you go all the way through, and the price drops immensely.
\n\nSo, I wanted to really understand why that happened. What you kind of get to is, like, they didn't have control over it, just, like, the bulk orders methodology, where they would buy the whole entire supply. And what I've seen over the years, be it Apple, Google, or anything else, is, like, that was...in that example, that's a game publisher, EA, flexing control, right?
\n\nBut more and more companies are flexing control on a platform like now with Facebook or advertising. If you think about what Google used to do, Google used to provide a lot more insights when you had your own website. You used to know your own keywords. You used to know a lot of things about your users who come through. More and more, Facebook and Google try to stop that. And they're really the ones determining your own user personas for you. So, you become dependent upon them.
\n\nSo, I wanted to say, okay, from a business standpoint, how do you implement control and privacy where it's permissioned? And encryption was one of the answers that I came to. But then it was, how do you make encryption functional then to actually execute on control? Because unless the system is secure, faster, cheaper, better, it's never going to get adopted.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. Thank you for sharing that. And you mentioned your founder. I'm curious, how does your founder kind of complete what you needed to be able to get the business up and running and off the ground?
\n\nWENDELL: He has a robotics degree, so he had launched several products that had failed. And he wanted to learn marketing after they had failed. So, we have a similar like mindset about, like, control and functionality for how something may or may not work, and that allowed us to communicate well. So, like, I have a lot of friends and stuff. But the thing that allows me and my co-founder to work really well is that we come from things in different angles, but we have the same language that we speak.
\n\nSo, like, that's what I was talking about before, like, LTMs or otherwise, like, language really matters from how you can move something forward when you're talking in different industries. And just with him, there's a lot of stuff that you don't have to say. You can skip a lot of filler and then go straight to what something might be or a solution or something. Or if we have to jump to a tech abbreviation, to a market abbreviation, to a financial abbreviation, he's one that can follow along with me really quickly and then teach me a lot of things about operational execution because he's great at operations. I am not great at operations.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really interesting. And I think you're making a good point about, like, a shared language. And it reminds me of any product that you're building; if you want to sell it to a company and you want them to adopt it, you have to consider their language, their belief system, how to influence change within the organization. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about that with your experience at PrimeLab.
\n\nWENDELL: I'll give you an example of a market that we decided to go after. So, instead of just working at, like, healthcare markets where you have, like, GDPR...for people who don't know GDPR or HIPAA, HIPAA is for the United States. GDPR is the EU privacy requirements, right? For the right to be forgotten and everything else. So, these are vernaculars that you need to know. But the requirements of each one is very different, and these are markets that we've learned being in tech and likewise. But we wanted to change it up.
\n\nSo, I wanted to go after the entertainment market as a whole, namely because after meeting with some select people, including a stunt man, this is going back a few years ago, I started to realize that the entertainment market was getting kind of screwed over quite a bit from a tech standpoint. Basically, tech goes through this thing where...someone wrote a great article about this. It's called Enshittification. But, basically, where they go they try to take over a whole entire market, where first they're providing great value to your users. And then, gradually, you enshittify your product to provide greater value to your investors. And then, gradually, you suck all of the value out of the room for both.
\n\nRight now, if you look at Sora, what OpenAI is trying to do in entertainment, [inaudible 16:08], you kind of can see that happening. They're going, "Hey, here's a great value for it." And they're really pushing that stuff off. But the thing about the entertainment market that I think is really interesting is it's basically thousands and thousands of small businesses that are constantly going, it's so chaotic. It's not like tech and startups. There's a lot of overlay of, like, you know, people are looking for that top quartile film that's going to make the money back, and then long-term royalties that they can earn off of it, right? Whereas in tech, they're looking for those huge markups as well.
\n\nSo, I was really fascinated by it, but it was something that, like, we had to learn. Like it was something that I didn't know otherwise. So, it was literally...how we learned it was we took our tech stuff, and we would walk SAG-AFTRA strike lines. We would walk strike lines. We would go to entertainment events, and we would demo what we were trying to do, and we would show them. And then, oftentimes, we got really negative feedback right off the bat. And we're like, "No, no, no, so, you know, this is for you. Like, you could control. Like, this is going to help you."
\n\nAnd then, after doing that enough times, talking to the SAG-AFTRA lawyers, and everything else from there, and all of the creatives, the creatives were coming to us and giving us ideas how to explain it because there's, like, three different formats. You have tech, business, creatives in the entertainment industry. And it's like, we could talk to the tech people. We could talk to the business people. But you really need the creatives. And, like, the wording of each one, like, each group of those is vastly different.
\n\nSo, having the creatives be able to explain something in 90 seconds that used to take me a couple of hours to dive into became really valuable. And also, in tech, like, you have this thing where it's feature creep, where you're like, oh, I'll add this, this, and this. Just to hear very coldly and bluntly, like, "If it does X, I'm interested. If it does Y, I'm not interested." That was very interesting or refreshing of, like, "Yes, you're going to solve these problems. But I need sign-off for everything in there."
\n\nAnd it's kind of weird in the entertainment part, too. Like, you want to solve a problem without being a competitor to another vendor because you need so many different sign-offs. And if you're a competitor to another vendor, to a certain point, maybe that's going to cause a hiccup with sign-offs because there's 18 different cooks in the kitchen, so to speak, just so many different people that need to say, "Yes," all the way through with it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you. Yeah, that's really interesting. I'm curious, Joe, if you have an answer for that question as well, like, any experiences about navigating change and putting new products in place at different clients, different industries?
\n\nJOE: I don't think I've had the same kind of resistance. Like, I haven't been on the front lines the way you described, like, literally in the, you know, going and talking to people on strike. I think I have more indirect experience talking to the people who are doing that.
\n\nAnd certainly, like, I think there's generally a resistance to bringing in new technology without eliminating the old way of doing things if that makes sense. Like, people want the old ways of backup. Like they want to be able to go back to paper, which I empathize with. But that's frequently been a challenge for the people I've worked with is that they don't fully embrace the new process, which significantly reduces the value they would get from using it. I don't know if that's something you've encountered with PrimeLab.
\n\nWENDELL: So, we were building another company of mine many, many, many years ago. I was building a website for this lumber company, and I remember showing up, and the owner was there. But it was his son that had commissioned it, and the owner didn't know about the website. And I was like, "Oh yeah, we'll get the website going." He goes, "Oh, this web thing it's a fad. It's never going to happen. You don't need websites. It's faxes." That's how everything would happen. But secretly, what was happening is they would get an order. They would print it off, and then they would fax it. So [laughs], I always thought that was crazy.
\n\nVICTORIA: I mean, one of my local bars still just writes the order on a ticket and sends it on a clothesline down to the grill. So [laughs], sometimes old is good. But I think that you know, I want to hear more about where you found or how you found a product-market fit for PrimeLab and where that AI really becomes useful and ethical in the industry you're focusing on
\n\nWENDELL: How I look at PMF (product-market fit)...and if you hear me just say PMF, that's what that means. So, how I look at PMF is I'm a little different in the fact that when I look at a product, or a technology, I don't just look at, like, so you have foundational tech. Like, okay, this is encryption. This is control, right? Now, where's the market that has the biggest problems with it? So, I like to go out and actually talk to those people. Because, like, when you're implementing tech, or you're implementing the product itself, it's different. So, you're like, you have the underlying infrastructure, but whether that's a button or a simple API that you need to build so it works different to hit that PMF...are you familiar with the term build a better mousetrap?
\n\nVICTORIA: I don't think so.
\n\nJOE: I'm familiar, but I'd still love to hear you describe it.
\n\nWENDELL: So, in business school, and likewise, they will tell you "If you build a better mousetrap, people will come, and they will buy your product." So, like, it's a common thing where they're like, "Build a better mousetrap. People will come. They'll be there." And the thing that you learn with consumer product goods and marketing, though, is they actually built a better mousetrap, and it failed.
\n\nAnd the reason why it failed is you had a mousetrap that was roughly a cent versus another mousetrap that was three cents. And I think this is in the '60s or so. The other mousetrap was reusable, so it executed a lot better, and everything else is more humane. But what they didn't understand is that it was wives most of the time that would have to actually handle this. And they didn't want the mouse alive, and they didn't want to reuse the trap. They wanted them to actually be disposed of right away.
\n\nSo, by not understanding the market, even though they built a better mousetrap, they'd missed the point. Like, the main problem to solve wasn't killing the mouse or having it be reusable. The main problem to solve was, like, getting rid of the mouse. So like, if you have a solution for getting rid of the mouse, the next thing is your execution for it. Like, does it hit the actual market, which is the fit aspect?
\n\nLike, every product is a little bit different where you look at, like, how does this fit in? So, in this case, fit is very important for, like, disposing of the mouse, which is why you also have, like, you know, mouse poisons are popular, even though they're terrible because they die somewhere and, hopefully, you don't see them. And it's like sight unseen, right? Now, I'm glad, like, that's changing and stuff.
\n\nBut it's understanding even if you have a solution to something, you need to understand what your market wants out of your solution, and it's not going to be an abstract. It's going to be an emotional, like, execution-based process. So, you kind of have to go, all right, this is my market. This is kind of my fit. But the actual product I'm building is going to change to make sure it works all the way through with this.
\n\nI was advising a startup many, many years ago, and they were building this CRM software on Android for South America. And I think they were building it for Android 6 or 7 at the time. But the market that they were targeting, they all ran Android 4.1. So, they spent a little over a million dollars building for the wrong version of Android that wouldn't even work on that version of the system. Like, it was one of those things where they were required to build it for that. But they didn't understand the actual market, and they didn't spend enough time researching it. So, it's like you get the Bay Area groupthink.
\n\nIf they had actually spent the time to analyze that market and go, "Oh, they run, you know, an inexpensive phone. It's 4.1. It's low RAM," now you can design a product. If you want it to be a CRM, you're going to, like, chunk up the system more. Like, you're going to change all that instead of just wasting a million dollars building something that now you basically have to start over again from scratch.
\n\nVICTORIA: That seems like he got off cheap, too. People make way bigger mistakes that cost way more money [laughs] because they [inaudible 24:13]
\n\nWENDELL: Well, that wasn't me. That was an investor that --
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh no. I mean, yeah, not just them. Yeah.
\n\nWENDELL: He's like, "What would you do?" And I was like, "You should sell this company or sell your stake ASAP because that's a really bad sign."
\n\nJOE: I have found that the answer nobody ever wants when you're doing product validation or testing product fit is, "You should not build this product." The idea that the software just shouldn't be written is universally unpopular.
\n\nWENDELL: Yes [laughs]. That's, you know, that's part of the reason why it took me so long to do PrimeLab is because, like, it took a long enough for the software to actually need to be written, if that makes sense.
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\n\nVICTORIA: What does success look like now versus six months or even five years from now?
\n\nWENDELL: I take a different approach to this because I have so many friends that have sold their businesses. They raise and everything else. I look at success as instead of an exit or another large thing, like, literally, we turned down a billion-dollar term sheet offer. I didn't like the terms. I didn't like what it would do from the control standpoint of the technology. What I care about is go-to-market and, like, adoption and actually getting the tech out there in a way that has market penetration but, like, that adds value to every person's life.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, maybe say more about that. Like how do you see AI and this technology you have with PrimeLab benefiting people and benefiting the industry that you're working within?
\n\nWENDELL: So, the current AI models are kind of weird. They're basically just filter systems because they communicate in pixel space and then go down to functional space. It's the GPU. GPUs are actually terrible to use for AI. This is why you have dedicated AI chips getting built. Hopefully, the RISC-V chipset does actually do something because that's a chipset that I think it's an open-source chipset, but you can actually especially build models on it.
\n\nSo, I think that we're going to see a lot more in the RISC-V chipset where it's like, this is just for one particular image, or this is just for explosions, or this is just for touching up all these different points in the actual individual, like, microcontroller module data that ends up compiling to move forward with it.
\n\nBut the AI models now it's like you took the internet, and you're trying to ask it a probability question, what I was talking about before, where it's not an absolute. So, it's like, if I want to do an OCR system or anything, I take an image. It's got to say, "This is..." letters; it's going to recognize that. So, there's, like, multiple models and algorithms that need to run on that whole entire process. You even have artificial data, but all of that information is an approximation. It's not an absolute. If you want absolute, you can get a lot of absolute data from the actual hardware devices themselves. You know, take a Sony camera. You could see the lighting. You could see the raw information, everything else there.
\n\nBut because of how expensive it is, people compress it. Like, take YouTube where it's compressed, and now you're training off of it. You're trying to compress it more and then run an algorithm so that you don't have to actually process those large, raw files all the way through. That's just a bad infrastructure for compute. You're trying to reduce, but you're also trying to utilize what you own for rights, same thing, contextual, or anything else there. There's no value in a model. Once a model is out there, it's just weights moving it back and forth. The value is in the data and the applications. So, the actual data itself that's going in.
\n\nSo, if you have just lava scenes, like, having all that data for lava, and I want to put it in a background, now I can do that, but more importantly, it's not about just adding it into the background. The thing that is often missed is contextually the output. So, like, say I want to do a financial report. Rather than having the data of all financial reports out there, what I want as the input is my financial data. And what I want as, like, a fine-tuning output is an example of the reports that were generated. And I don't want those reports as the input to inform the output because that's where you get a hallucination. Maybe it starts grabbing financial data from someone else.
\n\nAnd I also think we're in store for a lot more hacks because with not just poisoning data, which we do in the functional space, if someone tries to access it. But, I mean, literally, there's the story...I think the guy was in Hong Kong, where they faked his board all the way through with it. Because you have agents acting and executing on people's behalf, you're going to have systems where people go onto the hardware and start generating fake financial numbers. And now that's going to get reported. Or you pay an invoice that you weren't supposed to pay because someone manipulated your AI agent.
\n\nAnd a lot of the stuff that we're seeing now from Microsoft and everything else that's not really where the models will go. It's great to do it, but it's kind of like we're in the dial-up stage of AI. Like [chuckles], dial-up has its use cases and stuff, but it's nowhere near what the tech will look like in the future, and it's nowhere near how it will function.
\n\nAnd one of the big pushbacks that you see, like, from Google, from all these different places, like, they want your attention. But at the end of the day, Google's an ad company. Facebook's an ad company. It's not in their best interest to have hyper-localized data that you control for your models and likewise. They want it in the cloud. They want it used there, where they can control that data, and they can monetize and advertise for you. But at the same time, like AI models work the best, and AI applications work the best when the data set is limited, so it can't hallucinate, and when the outputs are actually controlled to what it should be from an informed standpoint. So, where we're at this is just in the beginning stages of stuff.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really interesting. Thank you so much for sharing. I think if you could go back in time when you first started PrimeLab and give yourself some advice, what would you say?
\n\nWENDELL: You know, I lived through the Great Recession. The Great Recession informed me a lot more. The things that I didn't understand this time...like the Great Recession, was market contributors doing stuff that impacted everyone with their spend and their adoption, and how those things were. But the Fed raising interest rates, which is, you know, Silicon Valley Bank failed and stuff like that, that dynamic of those startups and, like, how much startups power everything, like, I would have advised myself to pay more attention to the Fed and those market dynamics going forward.
\n\nBecause what changed is it's not just the Silicon Valley Bank failed it, you know, Rippling went down, for instance, which would pay therapists in Florida and all kinds of stuff. Like, it broke so many different things. It caused bottlenecks in business that we're still going through. Like, everyone's like, "Oh, we're getting back to normal." Really not. It's still, like, delayed all the way through it.
\n\nThe AI aspect is really getting back to normal, where people are really pushing AI. But if you look at SaaS and other industries, it really, really slowed down. And the reason why that matters is, like, in my field, production and timelines matter. So, when you have that plus, you know, the entertainment strike and everything else, you have things where the actual production of things starts slowing down immensely. Whereas AI is one of the few things that you still have innovations because that never really slowed down, same thing with the models. But all the rest of the industries and stuff have really slowed down.
\n\nAnd understanding what that means from an operational execution standpoint...it's a good thing I have my co-founder [inaudible 32:24]. It matters quite a bit because it means your team sizes have to change, how you handle certain clients has to change. Because once those companies start downsizing or laying off people for whatever reason like, that's going to change how you're working with them, and their requirements are going to change as well.
\n\nVICTORIA: And what do you see on the horizon as a challenge or a big hurdle that you face as a company or as an industry?
\n\nWENDELL: You know, the entertainment market's really interesting from all the different sign-offs. The challenge is more execution of timeline. So, like, if you're doing something with, like, Nvidia and the healthcare thing, it could take years. If you're doing something in, like, the IoT space, you know, also years. If you do something in the entertainment space, it could take weeks to months, except the large studios. The larger studios, it could take a couple of years as well.
\n\nBut going to market, I think, is a very big challenge, not just for us but the whole entire industry. I mean, there's a reason why Sam Altman came down to LA to meet with studios, to try and get stuff moving forward. And I think one of the things that he's forgetting is like, you think of Netflix. Netflix is streaming. In order for that to work, they needed Roku, and they needed Kevin Spacey because [chuckles]...it's crazy to say that, but House of Cards is kind of what made it, right? And Hollywood was mostly boxing them out quite a bit. Same thing with Blockbuster otherwise. They had to drop a hundred million dollars, a large enough bankable star at the time that would really push something forward. And they had to basically really push Roku out there so that they had PMF across the board.
\n\nWhat that means, though, is, like, Netflix is paying for content like crazy, right? So, this is kind of enshittification in a process. So, they're paying for content like crazy. So, now Hollywood's making money. They like it. At the studios, they don't love it when their stuff's going there because maybe it's less money, but now they start cutting the seasons short. They start cutting...it's a lot more algorithmic-driven. You have the ad systems that sort of come out. So, now, like, Netflix is not just doing ads where the customer experience is getting worse, but now, also, the business experience for those partners selling stuff is also getting worse, and all that value is getting driven to Netflix. Like, that's the tech system and Hollywood's learned that.
\n\nBut, like, when you're looking at the next adoption, like, they're hesitant for that. Just like a lot of stuff with AI, they're hesitant because they're thinking about all the power and control that they gave up. But you have to show how they're going to make money. You can't just cut costs, right? If you can't show how they're going to make money, you're not going to get adopted. That's kind of what I like there because so much of tech is about saving costs and being more efficient. In the entertainment industry, it's not just those two things. It's how can I make more money? And it's going to, like, ooh, you can monetize your content through training samples and stuff like that.
\n\nSo, our model goes exactly against what the large tech companies have where they want to take content, train on it, like the search engine does, suck the value off Sam Altman's Sora. Ours goes, all right, this is your content. Only you own this. You can take your own content, train it, and then perform this operation on it that is more efficient likewise. And if you choose to monetize it in any way, shape, or form, we can just take the functional space, not all the images and no one will ever see it, and take that functional space for training so that you can actually monetize from that as well.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. Super interesting. Thank you so much for sharing. And do you have any questions for me or for Joe?
\n\nWENDELL: I've noticed a lot of differences on, like, applications and how systems are built. So, I'm kind of curious about you guys' standpoint about applications, you know, the Apple Vision Pro. Facebook just said they'd start licensing out their AI system, or Meta, whatever. So, you have the comparisons to Android versus iOS that's happening, stuff like that. So, I'm really curious about, like, you guys' thoughts on the Vision Pro and that ecosystem.
\n\nJOE: Well, I can't speak for all of thoughtbot, but I can say that, to me, it was interesting to see that get released. And it's been interesting to see how aggressively Meta and Apple have been pursuing the various VR markets. Like it reminds me of when television companies and studios worked really hard to get 3D movies to be a thing.
\n\nWENDELL: [laughs].
\n\nJOE: Because I think they just ran out of things that people are asking for. Like, people were interested in getting better resolutions up to a point. Like, they wanted better packaging. But it got to a point where it was like, they didn't want to give anybody anything they were asking for. So, they were like, what if it's in 3D? And, like, for years, it seemed like Apple was really on top of seeing what people really wanted, and being able to present a very well-prepared version of that product before other companies were able to. And, personally, it's not what I saw with the Apple Vision Pro. Like, it wasn't the obvious missing space that was there when the iPhone or the iPad showed up.
\n\nWENDELL: Yeah, I always go back to, like, the "Why?" question. You know, previously when...even just before we had talked, I was talking about comparative religions, and why that's so valuable is because it really teaches you...again, I've had this conversation before, but the comparative religions, if you think about religion as a tech company, they're always trying to solve why. Like, why did the sun come up? Why did this happen, right? And you always have to do that. So, apply that to technology, Google or Apple, why does this product exist? And when you get to, like, it just existed to make money, I think that's really the 3D thing. Whereas, like, why did the iPhone exist? It existed to solve this problem of being portable on the go and getting information in the way that we communicated, too.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. I think the Apple Vision Pro appeals to a very specific market segment and that that segment is not me [laughter]. I, actually, during COVID...after...it was, like...yeah, we're still in COVID. But during the pandemic, I moved from DC to California. And to connect with some old friends, I bought a VR headset and decided to go to virtual coffee with them. And it just makes me nauseous. And it actually affects...quite a lot of women get nauseous in VR. For some people, the look—the capability is really exciting. They have the extra money to spend on gadgets, and that's what they like. And it's very appealing, and the, like potential, is really interesting. I just find it for myself. Personally, I'm more drawn to tech that's not maybe cutting edge but solves problems for actual people.
\n\nAnd kind of why I'm interested in PrimeLab, what you were mentioning is just how artists can use this technology to protect their creative work. To give that power back to people and that control over their content, I think, is really interesting rather than...I'm not really sure what I would do with the Apple Vision Pro [laughs]. Like, the early ones, I mean, it's cool. It's fun. I definitely enjoy it. Like, I sometimes like to learn about it, but it's not my passionate genre of tech that I normally go for.
\n\nWENDELL: Going back to what you just said about, like, control, like, part of the thing is because of the hash IDs that we put into place, like, you don't need analytics. You don't need cookies or anything else, like the content holder. Basically, like, if you have a TV set or something and you want to stream content to it, you can actually see that information directly yourself. So, it takes the person generating it and the person viewing it. It forms...we call them function access keys. It forms a one-to-one relationship, basically, where you guys know if you want to know what you want to know, but then you choose to give access to the platform if you want to, which changes the dynamic of control quite a bit.
\n\nAnd it's interesting because when you look at platforms like the Apple Vision Pro, and you look at Apple's whole entire system as a whole, just trying to lock in people, I think it's interesting because something like what I just described, Apple can't really stop. It's how compute works. So, if people want to use it, there's nothing they could do to stop it from being used. So, I'm really interested in the product stuff and just more about, like, how...and I'm curious what you guys think on this, too.
\n\nEspecially as you see phones and processors and everything else, I'm really interested in, like, how these things come about, like, how things are actually built and developed and the why for that, like, in the everyday use. So, like, the Apple Watch it started off as a fashion thing, which looked like a money grab, and then the why was, oh yeah, fitness. So, just curious if you guys have seen any other products out there that you're like, oh, this really resonates with me and the why.
\n\nJOE: Yeah, I'm not really a gadget person, but I think the idea of taking some of the capabilities that we've gotten with the internet and with phones and making them hands-free was interesting. And that, to me, was what I think started pushing the development of products like the Apple Watch or Google Glass. Like, I think that hands-free capability, the trade-off became rewarding in the fitness field, but I think it's more generically applicable. I think that technology it's too obtrusive in other scenarios and too bad at its job to do some of the things it could do. And people got creeped out by Google Glass. But it doesn't really seem like the Vision Pro fits in there. Something being successful hands-free means it becomes less obtrusive, whereas the Vision Pro is like you become a cyborg.
\n\nVICTORIA: Do you have anything else you would like to promote?
\n\nWENDELL: I wouldn't say necessarily promote as much as like people with ideas or aspirations, like, I think it's important that you think counter to what everyone else is doing. There's that line of, like, when everyone else is running in one direction, run the other. And it's like, if you have a business or startup idea, really think about your market. Like, think about why you're doing what you're doing, and don't be afraid to just go out there and talk to people. You will get value no matter who you talk to.
\n\nSo, like, I'm a hugely tech-based person. My wife is a therapist, and I learn from her everyday things about emotional intelligence and all kinds of things that I would be an idiot otherwise. But also, learn, like, you can always learn something from someone. Like, take the time to listen to them. Take the time to actually, like, try and figure out what's one thing I can learn from someone, even if, you know, I learn stuff from my daughters even. Like, don't put things in boxes. Like, try to think outside of like, how can I ask a question to learn?
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that advice. That's great.
\n\nWENDELL: Have you guys used Suno before?
\n\nVICTORIA: That's music, right? Music AI.
\n\nWENDELL: All right, I got to show you guys this. We're going to create you a quick theme song. Like, this is what I mean by, like, it's an interesting solution for why.
\n\nVICTORIA: That does sound fun. I like the ones...like my friend's a doctor, and she uses AI to take her conversation she's having with patients and automatically fill out her notes. And it saves her, like, 20 hours of documentation every week. Like, I like that kind of app. I'm like, oh, that makes a lot of sense.
\n\nWENDELL: What's a style of music that you guys really like?
\n\nJOE: Swedish pop
\n\nVICTORIA: Like ABBA [laughs]? I'm down for an ABBA Giant Robots theme song. Sounds great.
\n\nWENDELL: I think you're going to like this.
\n\n[Music Playing]
\n\nVICTORIA: These are awesome. They're super fun. Thank you so much.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on X @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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Hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido interview Sarah Touzani, the founder of Waggle AI, an AI leadership skills coach. Sarah shares insights from her entrepreneurial journey, discussing how her past pottery hobby has influenced her focus and patience, which are crucial skills in her role as a founder. She explains how her transition from a traditional business school path to a senior role in a fast-growing startup, and eventually to founding Waggle AI, was driven by a desire to foster better managerial skills and workplace culture.
\n\nSarah talks about the early challenges and pivots in developing Waggle AI, such as incorporating AI for automatic note-taking to reduce user friction. She describes how Waggle AI assists in meeting preparations, records notes, and provides feedback on leadership skills, helping managers improve their delegation and empathy skills. She also highlights the importance of blending productivity tools with leadership development to enhance team performance and individual well-being.
\n\nThe discussion also touches on the ethical considerations and core values driving Waggle AI, to emphasize user privacy and minimizing additional workload for managers. Sarah concludes by outlining her vision for the product, focusing on deepening the AI's understanding of managers and adapting recommendations to individual team members' needs.
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Sarah Touzani, Founder of Waggle AI, your AI leadership skills coach. Sarah, thank you for joining us.
\n\nSARAH: Of course. Thanks for having me.
\n\nVICTORIA: To open us up here, what is a past or current hobby that you enjoy?
\n\nSARAH: I need to be honest. I haven't done much outside of working since I started the company. But prior to that, I used to spend a lot of time in a pottery studio making pots, and bowls, and mugs, and gifting them to anyone I meet.
\n\nWILL: That's really impressive because I tried it for, like, I think a college class. And if you make one mistake, the whole thing gets ruined. I think I made, like, a little, very small bowl, and that was all I could get [laughs].
\n\nSARAH: Yeah. I'm not surprised. It takes a lot of practice and a lot of extreme focus in a way because, like you said, like, the single moment your hand moves slightly off, the whole thing is over.
\n\nWILL: What's the item that was the most complicated or you're the most proud of?
\n\nSARAH: I would say a big bowl that I made, which has a bit of an odd shape because, actually, it was going bad. And I kind of caught it back and made that mistake into something done on purpose in the design, and it worked quite well. But it's also not your average pot or average bowl you see everywhere.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really cool. And I echo Will's sentiments of being impressed by people who can do pottery because I did take a class right before the pandemic. And then, the pandemic hit, and we weren't able to fire any of our pieces [laughs]. But I found that it took just a lot of patience, even to be able to figure out the first step. Like, putting the clay onto the spinning wheel and doing that correctly just takes a lot of practice. And so, I'm curious if you find any of those skills or values from doing pottery translate into being a founder.
\n\nSARAH: Yeah, actually, this is funny because I wrote a blog article about this a few years ago when I first started. I think there are a lot of learnings to take away from that and bring into work, weirdly. It's that sense of focus. When you're starting a company very early, there's a million things that you want to be doing and, actually, you can't. You need to do one thing and do it well. And the ability to zoom in and focus on one single thing is a massive game changer.
\n\nAlso, my last job was as busy and insane as the current one, which is being a founder, because it was, like, a senior role in a super-fast-growing startup. And I was always on my phone, or always thinking about work, or always having something coming at me and trying to answer questions and do stuff on Slack. And with your hands dirty, you're actually forced not to do any work and go back to that focus and that mental clarity. And that was also, like, extremely valuable back then. So, saying this out loud makes me think that I probably should go back and do it.
\n\nVICTORIA: I recommend it. I did a hand pottery class with my little sister. I have a big sister, little sister mentorship relationship. And we made little ceramics, and it was super fun. Just, like, an hour a week.
\n\nSARAH: Super nice.
\n\nWILL: So, Sarah, you mentioned a little bit about your background. Tell us more about that. Where did you get started? How did you become a founder of your company? How did the idea come up? Just anything in those areas.
\n\nSARAH: Yeah. Sounds good. So, I have a bit of, like, a traditional business school type of profile. I was a good student. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. So, I went into a business school, graduated, went into banking and consulting, which are, I guess, those, like, sexy jobs that you want to get when you are still at school. And I had done them and felt a bit out of place because I wanted to get things to move way faster than they were moving in these, like, very corporate set-in-their-ways type of companies.
\n\nSo, left that industry and moved to a very early-stage startup. I used to live in Paris back then, and I moved to London. At the same time, joined a very early-stage startup in FinTech. We were four when I joined. And we didn't have a product, didn't have any revenue. And I had to grow that company to about 200,000 customers, 50 million series A, and 80 people in the team, of which I managed about 50. All of this happened in 4 years.
\n\nAnd I was hired into that role because of my background and because of my experience in risk management, compliance, like, all of the very technical aspects of my career. But at the end of the day, I spent most of my time trying to build a culture that motivated people to do their best work that enabled people to perform. And that's not something you really get to learn either at school or, in most cases, at work either. You just need to figure it out.
\n\nSo, I was trying to find a way where we could enable managers to learn these skills once they're in the job. Because when they mess up and when I messed up as a manager, it had a cost not only on the company but also on the wellbeing and mental health of the people that I was managing. And I couldn't really find a solution existing. So, I started working on one and spoke to one of my best friends about it, who is a multiple-time founder, and we just got to work. And fast forward a year and a half, here we are.
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm wondering if there was anything in the early phases that surprised you in the customer discovery process, maybe caused you to shift direction.
\n\nSARAH: Yeah, definitely. So, early days, we started with this problem, which is that most interactions between a team member and their manager happen in meetings. And that, overall, everyone is kind of frustrated with meetings, especially post-COVID, where we started doing a bunch of them online. It seemed to not work. And it seems that meeting management skills were a bit absent, and they should be part of the toolbox for a manager.
\n\nSo, started by trying to help managers run better meetings. And we relied on them taking notes from those meetings, like, in writing preparing for those meetings and taking notes for them in writing. And quickly realized that a very small portion of people were actually doing that note-taking. It seems obvious saying it out loud now, but back then, we didn't really know that.
\n\nAnd so, we kind of had to switch gears and use way more AI than we intended, at least at that stage, to enable that automatic note-taking and gathering of data for us to be able to support the managers. Because if we don't know what they're working on and what's happening in their world, it's super hard for us to give them any feedback. But if they don't take notes and share them with us, then we can't really do anything. So, I had to shift gears and build an embedded note taker within the product to remove, like, a big portion of that friction that we saw with early users.
\n\nWILL: I love that and just your whole product. I'm a productivity nerd, so I just love it. And I was a manager for a couple of years, and it's not the easiest. So, I love what your product is doing. Can you give us an overview of exactly what your product does so the audience can know what we're talking about?
\n\nSARAH: Yeah, of course. So, the product is an AI coach or an AI co-pilot for managers. And the way it works is it connects to your calendar. It creates a space to collaborate with your team on each of the meetings you have. Prior to the meeting happening, we also give you access to one-click templates and ways to run those meetings. And then, when the meeting is happening, the Waggle Bot joins the call, takes notes for you, picks up on both action items that you mentioned during the conversation, who they were assigned to, who mentioned them, but also decisions that were made or about to be made that you need to either come back to and confirm or make sure that everyone is aware of.
\n\nAnd finally, and the most exciting part, to me, is that it gives you feedback on your leadership skills, a bit like if your coach was listening to your conversations with your team members. And it will say things like, "You mentioned a few tasks during this call, and you didn't delegate any of them to the team while you had the opportunity to. So, next time you have a call, think about what tasks you could actually delegate," or it will say, "Well done showing empathy when Will, in your team, mentioned that their daughter was sick and that they had to leave work early today."
\n\nSo, it really works as a feedback loop to reinforce good behavior, but also give you tips and show you those unknowns that you didn't really think about and what impact they can have on your team and on your team's productivity. And finally, from that, we build a full picture of where you're good at, and where we can support you, and how those skills evolve over time through the feedback we give you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, as a manager myself, I'm thinking about all the things I do to try to make my meetings as efficient as possible by, you know, having automatic Slack updates that say, "As a reminder, go look at your tickets, update them before the call," like, rotating who's taking notes and facilitating the meeting, and thinking about how that could reduce the burden from the team and just help everyone save time and share that information more widely. Because sometimes I do have maybe a dozen meetings in a day, like, 12, 30-minute meetings [laughs]. And that's a lot of notes to take. So, I usually estimate every meeting takes another 30 minutes to an hour to wrap up and follow up afterwards.
\n\nSARAH: Yeah, I think that's a good assessment. And if you actually stick to spending those 30 minutes extra for each one of the meetings, I can tell you you're one of the best performers. Because what we've been seeing is that a lot of people, especially in startups or, like, fast-moving environments cannot afford to spend that time. So, we're trying to see how we can remove that friction and make those 30 minutes that you need to spend more like five minutes pre-meeting and potentially another five minutes after the meeting. And that's it. You're done.
\n\nVICTORIA: How many people did you talk to in the first 30 and 90 days of your startup?
\n\nSARAH: So, that's all we did in the first few months because we wanted to validate that this was not, like, an us problem. So, I spoke to about 75 managers over the first 2 to 3 months. So, that's in itself a lot of meetings, and a lot of calls, and a lot of recorded calls. And we still speak to an average of 5 to 10 managers per week to make sure that we keep a pulse on what our users are really experiencing and the pain points they are going through.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I could tell that you did talk to a lot of managers because I wish I would have had this whenever I had direct reports. Because I remember, early on, someone told me "No one cares what you know until they know that you care." But on the flip side of that, a lot of times, like you were saying, you're just so busy.
\n\nMost companies they give you multiple direct reports, more than three or four. And it's almost impossible to really show how much you care in a small amount of time. But this seems like it makes it way more helpful to say, "Hey, I not only care about you as a worker but as a person, too." So, like you said, show empathy because they mentioned X, Y, Z, or take notes around, you know, whatever happened in this so that you know next time that, hey, ask him about that. So, I really like this idea that you created.
\n\nThe question I have around it is leadership is not easy. So, how did you come up with the direction to go with the leadership? If that makes sense. Because I've seen different leaderships, I've seen some leaderships it's like, yeah, show empathy. Show that you care about the person. And some it's like, no, it's all about work. All about work. And it seems like you lean more towards, I want to show that we care about the worker. So, where did you decide to take which route and things like that?
\n\nSARAH: I love this because you're right. There's an art and a science to leadership. And I think, actually, there's way more science than we think. It's this common belief that leadership is something you are born with, and you don't need to learn that it's, I think, hurting both managers and the people they manage a lot. Because then people think, "Oh, but it must come naturally," or "This is a natural born leader." And as a result, the person who isn't or that people think isn't we think they're never going to change, and I don't think that's true.
\n\nThere's a set of behaviors that have been researched by organizational psychologists, behavioral scientists that have been shown to have impacts on people's motivation, productivity, outputs. So, we make sure to follow those best practices and those scientific data points. One of our advisors is a behavioral scientist. A couple of our advisors are leadership coaches. And one of them has even published a book around how to scale high-performing teams and high-performing companies. So, we try as much as we can to really embed what we're doing in science and in things that are known, albeit not super widely.
\n\nAnd as you said, you need both. You need to care about the person doing the tasks, and you need to care about the tasks being done. But they can't really be separate. And you need to balance the act between the two things. So, that's why we have blended the productivity app with a part that is more centered around skills and skills development because those two things need to communicate. You can't just throw a tool at people and expect them to know how to use it. And at the same time, if you don't make sure that the upskilling and, like, feedback you give is rooted in that person's context and what they're going through, it's not going to be leveraged or used.
\n\nSo, our approach was really to blend these two things and make sure that, yes, this is going to make the manager's team happier, but it's also going to make them more productive. So, it's not just about happiness. It's about linking both productivity and well-being at work.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really interesting. I'm curious, how do you measure the impact you're having on wellbeing at work? What are the success indicators, and how do you know you're successful in a year or five years from now?
\n\nSARAH: We only have been onboarding customers six months ago. So, I think we're starting to see some of the results we want to see, but it's still a bit early days because, as you said, behavioral change and habits take a long time to form and become sticky and start showing an impact on wellbeing.
\n\nBut overall, the feedback, the qualitative feedback we got was that managers feel way less imposter syndrome using the app. They feel that they are on top of what they need to achieve. They know what they're doing. They know what's expected of them. And their team also appreciates the fact that they are spending time and effort trying to get better because they know that they are using this tool to improve. So, they also get a signal that, okay, they are really trying. But at the same time, we do measure these. So, that feedback we give is actually based on measurement or assessment of each one of the skills that we measure for our users. And we have seen those scores evolve and go up over time just over the last few months.
\n\nPersonally, I'm quite bad at delegation. Potentially, that's why I brought it up earlier. And I have seen my score improve over the last few months using Waggle because it's more front of mind. I'm aware that I'm being assessed that almost someone is looking at what I'm doing, even if it's an AI. So, it feels a bit more safe than if it was a real person looking at what I was doing. But I know that I need to be on my A-game every day, and so I put in intentional efforts to try and delegate when I'm in a team meeting. And, potentially, I wouldn't have had that same level of awareness if I didn't get that feedback. I would just not delegate but not to be aware that I wasn't.
\n\nWILL: I like what you said is AI is not like your manager sitting in the meeting with you and saying, "Hey, you have to get these scores up," but it feels safer that AI is telling you, "Hey, you have to improve your empathy and get better at that." So, I really like that idea.
\n\nSARAH: Nice. Let's get you on the app then.
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\n\nWILL: So, I'm looking at your website now and, you know, I'm looking at the side, and it's like, "Hey, you know, Emily presented well, you know, send them a note of encouragement, or share a summary of the email." I made so many mistakes when I was a leader, so many. I wish I would have known the benefit of...because I almost...when I first went into it, I was like, they're adults. They can take their own notes. And now that I look at it, it's like, I could have easily helped out just saying, "Hey, here's a summary of the meeting that we had, and this is how we get better," and just helping each other out. So, I really like what you're doing here and what you have already in the app. What's on the horizon for the app? What does success look like in the next six months or five years for you?
\n\nSARAH: So, the way we see it is we want to know more about the managers we're helping, know more about their context, what's going on in their daily life. Because the more we know, the more we can help them and support them. So, the way we see it is now we basically get data through the calendar connection, and through the meeting notes, and transcripts that we get.
\n\nBut we would also like to know how they communicate with their team on Slack. How do they get their tasks done, and how does their team get their tasks done? How do they follow up on those tasks? But also, how fast do they reply to emails? What's the context of their emails? All of these things are data points that we can use to know their context and know them better and really tweak the AI so that it knows them better and it adapts to their setup. So that, as we go, what the AI tells you is completely different from what it tells me, for example, because it's got to know you, and it's got to know what interventions work well for you and which ones don't and get smarter at that.
\n\nAnd also, it gets to know how your team reacts to those behaviors that you show and attitudes. Which types of management work for Amy in your team versus Jim, right? Because they are different people as well. And so, whatever works with one person doesn't necessarily work with another and help you adapt and flex your management style with them.
\n\nVICTORIA: Do you have any other core values that drive your everyday decisions?
\n\nSARAH: We want to make sure that this never turns into a spying tool, and this is super key in the way we thought about the product, and we built it from very early days. We're conscious that we're having access, and our users trust us with a lot of data. And we're never going to share that data, even with your own manager. Because this is a tool for you as a manager to work on your skills and have that growth mindset, not for someone to spy on you or know how you're behaving. So, that's a commitment that we'll never share any specific data from users to their leadership team, to their HR team, no one else in the team, really.
\n\nWhat we also have as a guiding principle is we want to minimize the amount of work that is required from you to leverage these skills. So, we are trying to save managers' time whenever we can and wherever we can and never just, like, load a lot of content and feedback on them that they're not going to have time to process an action. So to strike a balance between, okay, well, you probably need to spend a bit more time on this specific skill or following up on this specific meeting. But we also saved you two hours today throughout the day so that you can focus on that extra half an hour work that is going to help your skills improve.
\n\nWILL: What are some of your biggest hurdles?
\n\nSARAH: Well, basically, this didn't exist until now. And so, just finding how we talk about it and, like, I mean, no one is looking for the solution because they don't know it's there, right? So, the first part is, how do we find people that we can support and help who aren't necessarily looking for this but are looking for alternative solutions that exist right now? And how do we talk about it in a way that makes them click and makes them envision this new way of doing things as a potential better way?
\n\nA lot of startups go through this journey. But basically, no one was looking for Ubers before Uber existed. People would hail a cab. And so, at the beginning, Uber pretended to be a cab service before they said, "Okay, we're actually not a cab. We're something else." And so, that something else is what we're trying to define right now.
\n\nVICTORIA: I used to live in a neighborhood in DC where the cab drivers would not go to [laughs]. So, I really loved Uber when it first started because I could actually get a ride. So, that's where some of the innovation comes in sometimes. It's like, solving a problem and seeing the demand and then building a product around it. I'm curious about how you're building an AI product and how are you thinking about controlling the cost and the kind of infrastructure demands of an app like Waggle?
\n\nSARAH: To be completely honest, we're not focused on that so much right now. I think it's a very fair question, and it's something that we're going to start to have to look into as we start to scale. But, for now, we're really focused on figuring out are we delivering the value we want to deliver to our users? Can we fix the problems they are hiring us to fix? But yeah, for sure, at scale, this is super costly, and we'll need to figure out the unit economics of the product and how to make it work, but we're not there yet.
\n\nVICTORIA: And how are you finding the resources to be able to experiment and have the time to build this product? What networks, or communities, or venues have you found to create space to build your app?
\n\nSARAH: So, we've been through Techstars last year. And I think the network around Techstars was super useful in gathering a lot of feedback in a very short amount of time over the three months that the program lasted. And we try to put a lot of content out there to try help people who are looking for solutions to communicate with an employee who's not performing at the level they expected them to or for a manager that doesn't know how to do a one-on-one.
\n\nThis type of content we're putting it out for free because it's solving our end user's problem, partially at least, and puts us on their radar. So, they might think, "Okay, I started looking into this first problem because that's what's front of mind right now. But as I see this product, it potentially could help me through a lot more issues that I'm currently having," and get visibility across those users that are exactly our perfect type of user. But yeah, overall, trying to put content out there creates a community around us.
\n\nLots of connections that happen through LinkedIn, through existing networks, through our users talking to other users about us, and even a number of coaches and L&D experts who really, really love what we're doing and talk about us to their users, to their customers and spread the word that way.
\n\nWILL: You're talking about, like, explaining the product to your customers and everyone. I think, for me, it resonates fairly easy because I made so many mistakes as a leader. And I'm like, oh, this could have helped me so many times to be a better leader. And so, I'll make an assumption. It seems like your product was made out of you making mistakes and learning from them, and you built a product because you want to be a better leader. So, my question for you is: What advice would you go back and give yourself when you first started? What's some advice that you can go back in time and give yourself?
\n\nSARAH: One of the first ones, and one of the biggest mistakes, and I've also heard this from so many other managers, is that as human beings, we tend to treat people the way we would like to be treated. And very quickly, we understand that that's not how things work. So, I used to like having space not to be managed very closely. So, I would just naturally give a lot of space to the people I started managing when I first started. It might work for some of them, but not for all of them. And that's what created the most issues and lack of performance, I would say, coming from them.
\n\nAnd it's easy to think, oh, it's their fault. They're not performing. But no, it's my fault as a manager because I didn't adapt to their needs, and I didn't give them what they needed to perform. And that's, again, very different from one person to another.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And I'm curious to go back to something you mentioned earlier about empathy. And just maybe how do you build an AI with a sense of empathy that helps managers be more empathetic?
\n\nSARAH: So, again, interestingly, AI can pick up on human behaviors way more than we think. Like, the feedback we get from the app sometimes is super interesting and, like, sometimes even a bit scary because these are patterns, right? AI is good at recognizing patterns. If you tell it what to look for, it will find it. So, it works. It just works.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, I'm very curious to try it out. And I have some people I'm thinking about who work in building empathy with developers and engineers, and they probably would also really love to try it out.
\n\nSARAH: Nice. Send them our way.
\n\nVICTORIA: Of course. Do you have any questions for me or Will?
\n\nSARAH: Yeah. What's the hardest thing you're currently doing at work that you would love support on?
\n\nWILL: I think as a developer, there's a lot of things that I don't know that I wish I know what direction to take. Because I feel like as a developer, you come in and you're like, I want to learn X, Y, Z, but there's so much to uncover. For example, mobile, there's so many directions to learn with mobile.
\n\nIn the technical part, probably sometimes what direction to go in my learning and things like that. Because, like, I'm a senior developer, and I've reached a certain part. But I feel like now it's like you learn on the go. Like, oh, I have this problem. Let me solve it. So, sometimes I wish I can get ahead of that and be like, hey, go learn how to do this because you're going to use it later. So, that's probably my biggest thing with technical.
\n\nAnd probably relational, you touched on it a little bit, but naturally, we're bent towards treating other people the way we want to be treated. And so, what that says is everyone around me has my exact background, my exact trauma, my exact upbringing. So, if you treat them that way, this should make sense, and that's just not the way it is. And so, I think, for me, it's making sure that I remind myself of that and to listen, to understand that background, trauma, whatever, of the people that I'm working with so that I can get to know them better and understand them better, and then I can know how to treat them.
\n\nSo, I would say that's probably my two biggest things that I have to continually work on and fight to make sure that I'm doing it the right way.
\n\nSARAH: I love that.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. I really appreciate that perspective, Will. And from a slightly different angle, I think I'm someone who really enjoys complex tasks. So, I think those are actually more fun and easier to do [laughs] but that more mundane tasks are kind of difficult. And making sure I'm on top of those, like, tiny, little to-dos that make you effective just consistently with certain managing tasks.
\n\nBut I think in terms of complexity and one of the hardest things to do, kind of along the lines of what Will was saying, you have to establish a common language between your team. And you have to have a system for managing your work so that everyone feels heard and everyone understands each other, and so you can move quickly and make decisions. So, I think that's a really complicated task.
\n\nAnd the more people you have, the more complicated it is. There's just so many different ways of solving that problem, and everyone comes back from different cultures, different corporate cultures, different tools that they've used, and their preferences. And people's preferences on tools can almost be religious, and that's interesting to me how strongly people can hold on to how they've been doing things. And making that shift in direction step by step and having the patience for it, I think, is difficult.
\n\nSARAH: It's so funny that most problems, at the end of the day, are people problems, even if they don't start by being that.
\n\nWILL: I totally agree with that because I chose what company to work for based off of the people and the culture more than the other problems. Because I've worked in some companies that had a great culture, but the people were treated right. And I enjoyed working with the people that I was working with. And then, I had some that I'm like, uh, I got to go in today and deal with such and such, and ugh. I think you're spot on. That caused me more stress than trying to solve the actual tasks that I was working on.
\n\nSo, yeah, I actually choose companies that I like working with the people. So, with thoughtbot, I love my co-workers. I love getting to know them the diversity in it. So, that's one of the reasons why I love thoughtbot so much.
\n\nSARAH: What a great way to end this.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes. Thank you so much for being here with us today, Sarah. I really enjoyed listening to your story.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on thoughtbot.social@vguido.
\n\nWILL: And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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Victoria Guido hosts Robbie Holmes, the founder and CEO of Holmes Consulting Group. The conversation kicks off with Robbie recounting his initial foray into the tech world at a small web hosting company named A1 Terabit.net, chosen for its alphabetical advantage in the white pages. This job was a stepping stone to a more significant role at Unisys, working for the state of New York's Department of Social Services, where Robbie inadvertently ventured into civic tech and public interest technology.
\n\nRobbie shares his career progression from supporting welfare systems in New York to becoming a technological liaison between the city and state, leading to a deeper involvement in open-source solutions. His journey through tech spaces includes developing websites, diving into the Drupal community, and eventually establishing his consulting business. Robbie emphasizes the serendipitous nature of his career path, influenced significantly by community involvement and networking rather than a planned trajectory.
\n\nAdditionally, Robbie gives insights on the impact of technology in public services and his stint with the U.S. Digital Service (USDS), where he contributed to significant projects like vets.gov. Robbie promotes the value of community engagement in shaping one's career, stressing how connections and being in the right place at the right time can lead to unexpected opportunities and career pivots.
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Robbie Holmes, Founder and CEO of Holmes Consulting Group. Robbie, thank you for joining me.
\n\nROBBIE: I'm so happy to be here. It's great to talk to you, Victoria.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes. I have known you for a long time now, but I don't know everything about you. So, I thought I would start with the question: What was your first job that you ever had?
\n\nROBBIE: My first technical job, I ended up working for an internet web hosting company called A1 Terabit.net. And note the A1 because it came first in the white pages. It was a really small web hosting company run by a man named [SP] Maxim Avrutsky. I worked there for about six months before I submitted my resume to an online job forum. That's how old I am. And it ended up in the hands of Unisys, where I eventually worked for the state of New York.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow [laughs]. So, what a journey that you've been on to get from starting there, and what a marketing ploy back in the day with the white pages. So, tell me a little bit more about how you went from that first job to where you are today with having your own business in consulting.
\n\nROBBIE: Yeah, I wasn't even aware that I was jumping into the sort of civic tech space and public interest technology because the job I ended up with was working for New York State in the Department of Social Services. And welfare is federally funded and distributed to states and then states to localities. And New York City and New York State have a weird parasymbiotic relationship because over 50% of the welfare in New York State goes to the five boroughs in New York City. So, so much of my job was supporting the welfare system within the city, which was run by the human resources administration.
\n\nSo, that just led to this cascade of me, like, getting invested in supporting that, and then eventually jumping over to the other side where I worked for the City of New York. And at that point, I ended up becoming sort of a technology project manager and almost a tech liaison between the city and state. And I was out in the welfare centers, helping get the job centers up to a new application called the Paperless Office System, which was a client-server app that was a wrapper around welfare.
\n\nAll of that ended up leading to me finally making it to the network operation center for the City of New York, where I started replacing expensive solutions like HP OpenView with open-source solutions like Nagios and another open-source solution that provided an interface. And it really opened my eyes to the idea of open source. And I had really paid attention to a lot of open-source operating systems. So, I was kind of just a general tech nerd.
\n\nAnd eventually, I started building websites, and that led me to the Drupal community in New York City, which was sort of this cascade that led me to communities. And I think that's sort of a through line for my entire career is I don't really think I ever had a plan. I think my entire career has been this sort of a lucky happenstance of being prepared when an opportunity arose and sometimes being in the right place because of my connections and community.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's interesting about being involved with the people around you and seeing what problems are out there to solve and letting that lead you to where your interests lie. And then, following that, naturally led you to, like, this really long career and these really interesting, big projects and problems that you get to solve.
\n\nROBBIE: Yeah. And I think one interesting aspect is like, I feel I spent a lot of time worried about what I was going to do and where I was going to do it. I don't have a bachelor's degree. I don't have an advanced degree. I have a high school diploma and a couple of years in college. Well, 137 credits, not the right 125 or 124 to have a bachelor's degree. I have enough credits for a couple of minors though, definitely Greek art history, I think mathematics, maybe one more. I just never got it together and actually got my degree. But that was so interesting because it was limiting to what jobs I could find.
\n\nSo, I was in the tech space as an IT person and specifically doing networking. So, I was running the network operation center. I helped, like, create a whole process for how we track tickets, and how we created tickets, and how things were moved along. And, in the process, I started building websites for family and friends.
\n\nAnd I built a website for our network operation center, so that way we could have photos to go with our diagrams of the network. So that way, when we were troubleshooting remotely, we could actually pull up images and say, "The cable that's in port six goes off to the router. I think that port is dead. Can we move it to the port two to its right, and I'll activate it?" And that made a really interesting solution for something we weren't even aware we had, which was lack of visibility. So many of the people in the fields were newer or were trying to figure it out. And some of us had really deep knowledge of what was going on in those network rooms and hubs.
\n\nIt led me to this solution of like, well, why don't we just start documenting it and making it easier for us to help when they're in the field? That led me to, like, the Drupal community because I started building sites in the Drupal CMS. And I went to, like, my first Drupal meetup in 2007, and there was, like, five of us around the table. That led to eventually me working for Sony Music and all these other things.
\n\nBut the year before I found my way to the Drupal community, I probably sent out, like, 400 resumes for jobs in the tech space, didn't really get any callbacks. And then, I met the community, and I started attending events, and then eventually, I started organizing events. And then, Sony I interviewed and talked to them a couple of times. And then, a friend of mine became the boss. And she contacted me and was like, "Hey, are you in the market?" And I was like, "I don't know. Why? What's up?" And she's like, "I became Doug." And I was like, "What?" And she was like, "I'm now replacing Doug at Sony. I'm running the team." And I was like, "Yeah, I'm happy to talk."
\n\nAnd that was the big transition in my career from IT to sort of development and to delivery, right? Like, when it comes right down to it, is I became the manager of interactive media at Sony Music, which was really a job I landed because I was connected to the community, and running events, and getting to know everyone.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And I think it's really cool that you had this exposure early on to what you called civic tech, which we'll get into a little bit, and then you went from the community into a commercial technology space and really getting into engineering with Drupal.
\n\nROBBIE: Yeah, it was an interesting transition because what they needed at Sony was sort of somebody who could ride the line between systems engineer, database administrator, and Drupal engineer, and also probably pre-DevOps DevOps person. So, I was responsible for all deployments and all tickets that came in. I was sort of both the technical arm of the help desk. When I joined, there was 24 websites on the Drupal platform, and when I left, there was over 200. And we upgraded it from Drupal 5 to Drupal 6 to Drupal 7 while I was there. So, I was heavily involved in all of those updates, and all those upgrades, and all of the deployments of all the new themes, and all the changes to all these sites.
\n\nSo, what was great was they, I believe, if I understand it correctly, they actually created a role for me out of, like, two or three jobs because they needed a me, and they didn't have a role that existed. So, all of a sudden, they made a manager of interactive media role. And I was able to work there for two years, sort of being what I jokingly say, like, a digital janitor. I used to say that I had, like, an eight-bit key ring in a push broom. And I was always mad at your kids for trying to break my stuff.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs] That's so good. A digital service janitor [laughs]? The connection for me between that and where I met you in the U.S. digital service space [laughs] I feel like there's a lot of parallels between that and where your career evolved later on in life.
\n\nROBBIE: Yeah. What's amazing is I did all this early work in my career in civic tech and didn't realize it was civic tech at the time. I just realized what I was doing was providing this huge impact and was value. You know, I spent a couple of years in the welfare centers, and I used to say all the time that the two hardest jobs in the welfare center are the person applying for welfare and the person deciding whether or not that person gets welfare. So, being a technologist and trying to help make that as simple as possible or easier and smooth the edges off of that process was really important.
\n\nAnd it really taught me how important technology is to delivering service. And I really never thought about it before. And then, when I was working for Phase2 technologies, I was a director of Digital Services. And I read in a blog post, I believe that was written by Mikey Dickerson, who was the original administrator for USDS, and he talked about HealthCare.gov. And he walked in the door, and he said, "How do you know HealthCare.gov is down?" And I think there was some allusion to the fact that we were like, we turn on the television and if they're yelling at us, we know it's down. And Mikey was like, "We know how to monitor things."
\n\nSo, like, if you don't know Mikey Dickerson, he's the person who sort of created the web application hierarchy of needs in Google. He was an SRE. And his pyramid, like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, was all over Google when I was there. I was so impressed with the idea that, like, we aren't talking about how do we solve this problem? We're talking about knowing when there's a problem. And then, if we know there's a problem, we can put some messaging around that. We can say, like, "We're aware," right? Like if the president calls the secretary, the secretary can say, "We know it's down. We're working on it," which is building up political capital.
\n\nIt's a really amazing process that I kept reading this blog post, and I was like, God, that's how I would approach it. And then, I was like, wow, I wonder if I could use my skills to help America, and very shortly submitted an application and was like, well, we'll see what happens. And about six months later, I walked in the door at the VA and was the eighth employee of the Digital Service team at the VA. That was a franchise team of the USDS model.
\n\nVICTORIA: And can you say a little bit more about what is the U.S. Digital Service and expand upon your early experience there?
\n\nROBBIE: Yeah. So, the United States Digital Service was created after HealthCare.gov had its issues. Todd Park had convinced President Obama to reach out to get support from the private industry. And the few of the people who were there, Todd convinced to stick around and start creating a team that could support if there was this kind of issue in the future. I believe the team that was there on the ground was Mikey Dickerson, Erie Meyer, Haley Van Dyck, and Todd. And there was a few other people who came back or were very close at the beginning, including the current administrator of USDS. She has been around a long time and really helped with HealthCare.gov. It's amazing that Mina is back in government. We're very lucky to have her.
\n\nBut what came out of that was what if we were able to stand up a team that was here in case agencies needed support or could vet solutions before these types of problems could exist? So, USDS was what they called the startup inside the White House that was created during the 2014 administration of President Obama. The team started that year, and I joined in May of 2016. So, I would be, like, sort of the beginning of the second team of the VA U.S. Digital Service team.
\n\nSo, USDS supported this idea of tours of duty, where you're a schedule A employee, which meant you were a full-time government employee, but you were term-limited. You could do up to two years of duty and work, and then you could theoretically stick around and do two more years. That was how these roles were envisioned. I think there's lots of reasons why that was the case. But what's nice is it meant that you would come in with fresh eyes and would never become part of the entrenched IT ecosystem.
\n\nThere are people that transition from USDS into government, and I think that's a huge value prop nowadays. It's something that I don't know they were thinking about when the original United States Digital Service was stood up, but it was hugely impactful. Like, I was part of the team at the VA that helped digitize the first form on vets.gov and all the work that was done. When the VA team started, there was a team that was helping with veteran benefits, and they worked on the appeals process for veteran benefits. And I joined. And there was a team that was...eventually, it became dubbed the veteran-facing tools team.
\n\nAnd we worked on vets.gov, which was a new front door to expose and let veterans interact with the VA digitally. And over time, all the work that went into the tools and the solutions that were built there, everything was user-researched. And all of that work eventually got brought into VA.gov in what they called a brand merger. So, we took, like, the sixth most trafficked front door of the VA and took all the modern solutioning that that was and brought it into VA.gov, the main front door. So, all of a sudden, there was an identity, a login provided on VA.gov for the first time. So big, impactful work that many people were a part of and is still ongoing today.
\n\nSurprisingly, so much of this work has now fallen under OCTO, which is the Office of the CTO in the VA. And the CTO is Charles Worthington, who was a USDSer who's the epitome of a person who goes where the work is. Charles was a Presidential Innovation Fellow who helped out in the times of HealthCare.gov and, joined USDS and did anything and everything that was necessary. He interviewed engineers. He was a product person. Charles is one of the most unique technologists and civic tech people I've ever met in my life.
\n\nBut Charles, at the end of the Obama administration and in this transition, realized that the VA was in need of someone to fill the CTO role. So, he came over to become the interim CTO because one of the values of USDS is to go where the work is. And he realized, with the transition, that Marina Nitze, who was the CTO who was transitioning out, there was going to be a need for continuity. So, he came in to provide that continuity and eventually became the full-time CTO and has been there ever since.
\n\nSo, he has helped shape the vision of what the VA is working towards digitally and is now...he was just named the Chief AI Officer for the agency. Charles is a great person. He has successfully, you know, shepherded the work that was being done early by some of us into what is now becoming a sort of enterprise-wide solution, and it's really impressive.
\n\nVICTORIA: I appreciate you sharing that. And, you know, I think there's a perception about working for public service or for government, state or federal agencies, that they are bureaucratic, difficult to work with, very slow. And I think that the USDS was a great example of trying to really create a massive change. And there's been this ripple effect of how the government acquires products and services to support public needs, right?
\n\nROBBIE: Yeah, I would say there's a couple of arms of the government that were sort of modernization approaches, so you have the Presidential Innovation Fellows, which are the equivalent of, like, entrepreneurs and residents in government. And they run out of...I think they're out of the TTS, the Technology Transformation Service over at GSA, which is the General Services Administration. But the PIFs are this really interesting group of people that get a chance to go in and try to dig in and use their entrepreneurial mindset and approach to try to solve problems in government. And a lot of PIFS work in offices.
\n\nLike, Charles' early team when he first became the CTO included a lot of Presidential Innovation Fellows. It was basically like, "Hey, the VA could use some support," and these people were available and were able to be convinced to come and do this work. And then, you have the Presidential Management Fellows, which I think is a little bit more on the administration side. And then, we have 18F and USDS.
\n\nThe United States Digital Service is a funded agency with an OMB. And we were created as a way to provide the government with support either by detailing people over or dropping in when there was a problem. And then, 18F is an organization that is named because the offices of GSA and TTS (Technology Transformation Service), where it's housed, are on the corner of 18th Street and F in DC. And 18F is sort of like having a technology or a digital agency for hire within the government. So, they are full-time employees of the government, sort of like USDS, except government agencies can procure the support of that 18F team, just like they would procure the support of your company. And it was a really interesting play.
\n\nThey are fully cost-recoupable subcomponent of TTS, which means they have to basically make back all the money that they spend, whereas USDS is different. It's congressionally funded for what it does. But they're all similar sibling organizations that are all trying to change how government works or to bring a more modern idea or parlance into the government. I used to say to people all the time that at USDS, you know, we would set a broken bone say, and then we would come back around and say, like, "Hey, does your arm hurt anymore?" The idea being like, no. Be like, "Cool, cool. Maybe you should go to the gym, and you should eat better." And that would be, like, procurement change. That would be, like, changing for the long term.
\n\nSo, all the work I was doing was building political capital so we could do better work in changing how procurement was done and then changing how the government delivered these things. So, what was awesome was, like, we used to have these fights at USDS about whether or not we were a culture change or we were firefighters. And I think the reality is once we're involved, culture changes happen. The bigger question is, are we going to be there for the long haul, or are we only there for a shorter period of time? And I think there are reasons why USDS teams had both plays. And I think it really is just two different plays for the same outcome.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that makes sense. And to pivot a little bit, I think, you know, our audience, we have clients and listeners who are founders of products that are aimed at making these, like, public service needs, or to give some examples, like, maybe they're trying to track Congressional voting patterns or contact information for different state representatives, and they're trying to navigate this space [laughs]. So, maybe you can give some advice for founders interested in selling their products to government agencies. What can they do to make it more appealing and less painful for themselves?
\n\nROBBIE: I wouldn't consider myself a procurement expert, but at USDS, the procurement team called themselves the [SP] procurementati.
\n\nAnd I was a secret member of the procurementati. I often was the engineer they would call to evaluate statements of work or sometimes be on technology evaluation panels. And it was fun to be a part of that. Things that most companies don't realize is government agencies will put out things like request for information or sources sought in the government space. And this is a way for industry to influence how government tries to solve problems.
\n\nIf you are trying to go after government work and you're only responding to an RFP, you're probably behind in your influence that you could have on the type of work. So, you'll see if a procurement seems to be, like, specifically focused on an approach, or a technology, or a framework, it's probably because some companies have come through and said, "I think this would probably solve your problem," and they gave examples. So, that's one way to be more connected to what's going on is to follow those types of requests.
\n\nAnother is to follow the money. My wife is this amazing woman who helped write The Data Act and get it passed through government. And The Data Act is the Data and Transparency Act. And that led to her heading over to treasury and leading up a team that built USAspending.gov. So, there is a website that tracks every dollar, with some exceptions, of the funding that comes out of Congress every year. And what's great is you can track it down to where it's spent, and how it's spent, and things like that. For education purposes, I think that is a really good thing that business and growth people can focus on is try to see and target where competitors or where solutions that you've looked at have gone in the past. It's just a good set of data for you to take a look at.
\n\nThe other piece is if you're creating a solution that is a delivery or a deliverable, like a SaaS solution, in order for something to be utilized in the government, it probably needs to be FedRAMP-approved, which is a process by which security approvals have been given so that government agencies have the green light to utilize your solution. So, there's tons of documentation out there about FedRAMP and the FedRAMP approval process. But that is one of those things that becomes a very big stopping point for product companies that are trying to work in the government.
\n\nThe easiest way to work your way through that is to read up on it a bunch, but also find an agency that was probably willing to sponsor you getting FedRAMP approval. Most companies start working with a government agency, get an exemption for them to utilize your product, and then you get to shape what that FedRAMP process looks like. You start applying for it, and then you have to have some sort of person who's helping shepherd it for you internally in the government and accepting any issues that come along in the process. So, I guess FedRAMP approval is one that's a little complicated but would be worth looking into if you were planning on delivering a product in government.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And does that apply to state governments as well?
\n\nROBBIE: So, lots of state-related and city and locality-related governments will actually adopt federal solutions or federal paradigms. So, I think in the state of California, I think FedRAMP as one of the guiding principles for accepting work into the state of California, so it's not consistent. There's not a one-to-one that every state, or every city, or every locality will pull this in. But if you are already approved to be a federal contractor, or a federal business, or a federal product, it's probably going to be easier to make your way into the local spaces also.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And as you said, there's plenty of resources, and tools, and everything to help you go along that journey if that's the group you're going for [laughs].
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\n\nVICTORIA: So, kind of bringing it back to you, like, you're saying you want those partnerships within the government. You want someone advocating for you or for your product or your service. Drawing that back to what you said earlier about community, like, how do you form a community with this group of people who are in the state, or federal government, or civic tech spaces?
\n\nROBBIE: Yeah, I think it's an interesting problem because so much of it feels impenetrable from the outside. Most people don't even know where to start. There are organizations out there that are pretty good community connections, an example I would give is ACT-IAC. It is a public-private partnership where people from within the government, experts in their fields, and people in the private industry who are experts in their fields will be together on community boards and engaging in panels. And so, it's a really nice way to start connecting those dots.
\n\nI have no direct affiliation with ACT-IAC. But if they'd like to give me my own account, that would be great. But it is one of those organizations I've seen be successful for people trying to find their way into a community that is a little harder to find.
\n\nI think, also, so much of the community engagement happens at conferences and around...so, like, if you're in the healthcare space, this last month, you've had multiple conferences that I think were really great for people to get to know one another, you know, an example is ViVE. It just happened out in LA, which is a little more on the private sector health space, but still, government agencies were there. I know that the Department of Veterans Affairs had people there and were on panels. And then, HIMSS is another conference that takes place, and that just took place down in Miami. And in Miami, HIMSS happened and a whole bunch of other social community events took place.
\n\nSo, I'm close with a thing called the Digital Services Coalition, which is 47 companies that all try to deliver good government based on the Digital Services Playbook that was created by USDS that lives at playbook.cio.gov and the way that they try to accomplish this work. And that organization, while they were in Miami, hosted a happy hour. So, there's a lot of connections that can be made once you start seeing the players and getting to know who's around. So, it's a little bit about trying to find your way to that first event, and I think that will really open up everything for you.
\n\nWithin a week or two, I was at an International Women's Day event at MetroStar, which is a really great company that I've gotten a chance to spend some time with. And then, I was at an event for the Digital Services Coalition talking about open source in government. So, there's a lot of stuff out there for you to be a part of that isn't super cost-prohibitive and also doesn't take a lot once you start to open the door. You know, once you peek around that corner and you find some people, there's a lot more to be done.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And you touched on something at the end there that wants me to bring up some of the advantages you can have being a small business, a minority-owned business, or woman-owned business, or veteran-owned business, so thinking about how you can form those connections, especially if you have one of those socio and economic set-asides that you might want to consider if they're looking to work with the government as well.
\n\nROBBIE: Yeah. Those socioeconomic set-asides include small businesses, woman-owned small business. I think it's Native and Alaskan 8(a), which is historically underrepresented and service-disabled veteran-owned. So, there are also sub-communities of associations, like there's the Digital WOSB, the digital Women-Owned Small Business alliance that was founded by Jess Morris from Pluribus Digital, and a bunch of other companies in the Digital Services Coalition. I believe she's the president of the Digital WOSB right now.
\n\nThat is a sub-community of women-owned small businesses that are trying to connect and create a community that they can support one another. And that's just one example of the type of connection you can make through those types of socioeconomic set-asides. But once you have those official socioeconomic set-asides, it will allow you to get specific contracts engagements in the government that are not allowed or available for others. So, the government procurement process will have some amount of these specific socioeconomic set-asides that need to be hit. Like, 8% of all procurements need to go to this and 10% of all procurements need to go to this.
\n\nSo, I think the VA is probably one of the most effective at hitting any of the socioeconomic set-asides, specifically related to service-disabled veteran-owned small businesses. So, if you happen to be a person of color and you found a business and you are female presenting, right? You may have 8(a) woman-owned small business. If you also happen to be a veteran and you're service-disabled, all of those things stack. You don't just get to have one of them. And they can be really effective in helping a business get a leg up and starting out and trying to help even the playing field for those communities.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. What I really appreciated about my experience working with Pluribus Digital, and you, and people who had had that experience in the U.S. Digital Services, that there is this community and desire to help each other out and that you can have access to people who know how to move your product forward, get you the connections that you need to be competitive, and to go after the work. So, I love encouraging people to consider civic tech options. And maybe even say more about just how impactful some of it can be. And what kind of missions are you solving in these spaces?
\n\nROBBIE: Yeah, I often try to remind people, especially those who are heading towards or considering civic tech, there are very few places in this world that you can work on something that can impact millions of people. Sure, I was lucky enough. I have tons of privilege. I worked at a lot of wacky places that have given me the access to do the type of work that I think is impactful, but very little has the kind of impact.
\n\nLike, when I was interviewed by Marina Nitze as, my last interview when I joined USDS, she sent me an email at the end of it and said like, "Everything was great. I look forward to working with you. And remember, every time you commit code into our GitHub, you'll be helping 8 million veterans." And then, she cc'd Todd Park. And Todd was the CTO of the U.S., and he responded back within a minute. Todd is one of the most busy people. It was amazing to me how fast he responded. But he was like, "Lemme tell you, as somebody who can talk on behalf of our president, our country needs you." And those kinds of things they're hard to comprehend.
\n\nAnd then, I joined the Digital Service team at the VA. And one of the first things that I got to support was the 10-10EZ. It's the healthcare application for veterans. And before I got there, it was a hosted PDF that we were trying to replace. And the team had been working for months to try to build a new, modern solution. What it was is it was, like, less than six submissions were happening a day because it only worked in Adobe Acrobat, I think it was 6.5 and below, and Internet Explorer 8.5 and below.
\n\nAnd if you think about the people that could submit utilizing that limited set of technologies, it was slowly becoming homeless veterans who were using library computers that had not been upgraded. So, there was a diminishing amount of value that it was providing. And then, on top of it, it was sort of lying to veterans. If the version of the Adobe Acrobat was out of date, or wrong, or too new, it would tell them to upgrade their browser. So, like, it was effectively not providing any value over time.
\n\nWe were able to create a new version of that and that was already well on its way when I joined, but we were able to get it out the door. And it was a React frontend using a Node backend to talk to that SOAP API endpoint. Within the first week, we went from 6 submissions a day to 60 submissions a day. It's a joke, right? We were all 10x developers. We were like, "Look at us. We're killing it."
\n\nBut about three years later, Matt Cutts came to a staff meeting of USDS, and he was the second administrator of the USDS. And he brought the cake that had the actual 10-10EZ form on it, and it said, "500,000." And he had checked with the analytics team, and there were over 500,000 submissions of that form, which means there are 500,000 possible veterans that now may or may not have access to healthcare benefits. Those are big problems.
\n\nAll of that was done by changing out one form. It opened up the world. It opened up to a group of veterans that no one else was able to do. They would have had to go into a veteran's office, and they would have had to fill it out in paper. And some veterans just don't have the ability to do that, or don't have an address, or don't have a...so, there are so many reasons why having a digital form that worked for veterans was so important. But this one form that we digitized and we helped make modern has been submitted so many times and has helped so many veterans and their families. And that's just one example. That's just one form that we helped digitize.
\n\nBut now the team, I mean, I'm back in the VA ecosystem. There's, like, 2,500 people in the general channel in the office of the CTO Slack organization. That's amazing. There's people there that are working all day, every day, trying to solve the same problems that I was trying to solve when I got here. And there's so much work being done to help veterans. But that's just one example, right? Like, at USDS, I know that the digital filing for the free version of your tax form, the IRS e-file Direct, just went live. That was something that USDS had been working on for a very long time behind the scenes. And that's going to impact everybody who submits their taxes.
\n\nThese are the kind of problems that you get to work on or the scope of some of the problems if you work in these types of organizations, and that's really powerful. It's the thing that keeps drawing me back. I'm back supporting the VA again through some contracts in my business.
\n\nBut it's funny, like, I was working for another agency. I was over working at DHS on an asylum project. And a friend of mine kept telling people to tell me, "Man, veterans need you. If only there was another one of you to help us over here, that would be great." And eventually, it led to me being like, well, veterans need me. I'm going to go back to the VA. And that was my second tour at USDS at the Department of Veteran Affairs. And now I'm back there again.
\n\nSo, it's a very impactful place to work. There's tons of value you can provide to veterans. And, to me, it's the kind of work that keeps bringing me back. I didn't realize just how much I was a, like, impact junkie until I joined USDS, and then it really came to a head. I cannot believe how much work I've gotten to be a part of that has affected and supported those who get benefits and services from the federal government.
\n\nVICTORIA: [inaudible 33:47] impact junkie. That's funny. But yeah, no, thank you for sharing that. That's really interesting. Let me see if you could go back in time to when you first started in this journey; if you could give yourself any advice, what would you say?
\n\nROBBIE: Yeah, I think I spent so much time being nervous about not having my degree that I was worried it was going to hinder me forever. And it's pretty amazing the career I've been able to thread together, right? Like, you know, I've hit on a few of them already.
\n\nBut, like, I started with a small web hosting company, and then New York State in the Department of Social Services, then New York City in the Human Resources Administration, Sony Music, Zagat Survey, Google, Johnson & Johnson, IDT telecommunications, Phase2 technologies, where I got to work on an awful lot of problems in lots of awesome places like NBA.com, and Major League Soccer, and Bassmaster. And then, the United States Digital Service where I got to work on things supporting the Department of Veterans Affairs and the Department of Homeland Security over at ADA.gov in DOJ. I helped them out. And I worked over at USDA helping get Farmers.gov off the ground.
\n\nSo, everything on my left leg, tattoo-wise, is something that changed my life from my perspective. And I have a Drupal tattoo on the back of my leg. I have a DrupalCon. So, anytime somebody said "Drupal" anywhere near a USDS person, I would magically appear because they would just be like, "Oh, Robbie has that Drupal tattoo." So, I got to work on a lot of dot govs that eventually landed or were being built in Drupal. So, I got to support a lot of work. And it meant that I got to, like, float around in government and do a lot of things that others didn't get to do.
\n\nWhen CISA stood up, which is the office of security inside of DHS, it's one of the newest sub-communities or subcomponents, they built DHS SchoolSafety.gov, which is a cross-MOU'd site. And I got to sit in and help at the beginning of that because of my Drupal background. But it was really fun to be the person who helped them work with the vendors and make sure that they understood what they were trying to accomplish and be a sort of voice of reason in the room.
\n\nSo, I did all of that work, and then after that, I went and worked at Pluribus Digital, where I got a chance to work side by side with you. And then, that led to other things, like, I was able to apply and become the director of Digital Services and software engineering for my local county. So, I worked for Prince William County, where I bought a house during the pandemic. And then, after that contract ended, I had already started my own business. So, that's led to me having multiple individual contracts with companies and so many people. I've gotten to work on so many different things. And I feel very lucky.
\n\nIf I could go back and tell myself one thing, it's just, take a breath. Everything's going to be okay. And focus on the things that matter. Focus on the things that are going to help you. Focus on community. Focus on delivering value. Everything else will work itself out. You know, I joke all the time that I'm really good at providing impact. If you can measure my life in impact and value, I would be a very rich man. If you can measure it in money, I'm doing all right, but I'm never going to be yacht Robbie, you know, but I'm going to do okay.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh my god, yacht Robbie. That's great. So, just to recap, everything's going to be okay. You never know where it's going to take you. And don't be limited by the things that you think, you know, make you not enough. Like, there's a lot of things that you can do out there. I really like that advice.
\n\nROBBIE: And I think one last piece is, like, community matters, if you are a part of communities and you do it genuinely, how much that will impact your career. I gave a talk from Drupal NYC to the White House and beyond. And I talked through my entire resume and how everything changed when I started doing community engagement. When I went to the Drupal community in New York City and how that led to Sony, and that led to Zagat, which led to me getting acquired by Google, like, these things all cascaded.
\n\nAnd then, when I moved to the DMV, I was able to join here and continue supporting communities, which allowed me to bring people into the local civic tech community from the local DC tech community. So, so many of the best USDS engineers, and designers, and product people I was able to help influence to come to government were people I met in the community or the communities I helped support. You know, I was an early revivalist of Alexandria Code and Coffee. It was a community that was started and then wavered.
\n\nAnd then, Sean McBeth reached out to the community and said, "Do we want to help and support getting it off the ground again?" And I immediately said, "Yes." And then, that led to my friends at BLACK CODE COLLECTIVE wanting to create a community where they could feel safe and connected and create a community of their own. And then DC Code & Coffee started. And from there, Baltimore Code & Coffee kicked off.
\n\nAnd it's just really nice that, like, it doesn't matter where I've been. All these things keep coming back to be a part of community and help support others. And you will be surprised at how much you get back in return. I wouldn't be the person I am today in my community. I wouldn't have my career if it wasn't for the people who started and helped shepherd me when I was starting out. And I feel like I've been trying to do the same for people for a really long time.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. That's what I say, too, when people ask me for advice on careers and how to grow. And my biggest piece is always to go out and meet people. And go to your community, like, look and see what's happening. Like, find people you like hanging out with and learning from. And just that should be the majority of your time probably if you're trying to figure out where to go with your career or even just, like, expand as a person sometimes [laughs].
\n\nRobbie, I was going to ask; you mentioned that you had bought a house in Virginia. One of my other warmup questions was going to be, what's your favorite thing to put on the grill?
\n\nROBBIE: My house in Virginia definitely gets a lot of use, especially in the spring and the fall. I'm a big fan of team no extreme when it comes to temperature. But during those time periods, my grill is often fired up. My favorite is probably to make skirt steak on the grill. I'm a huge fan of tacos, especially made out of skirt steak. I'm in all day. That's one of my favorites.
\n\nI also love to smoke. I have a smoker because I'm a caricature-esque suburban dude. I'm going to live into all of the possible things I could have. But I've had a smoker for a long time, and I love making sort of poor man's burnt ends. It's one of my favorite things to make. But you got to have some time. That's the kind of thing that takes, you know, 14 hours or 16 hours, but it's really fun to take advantage of it.
\n\nA quick thing I love to make is actually smoked salmon. It takes longer to brine it than it usually does to smoke it. But it is one of the nicest things I've made on my smoker, you know, fresh pesto on a piece of salmon is pretty awesome, or everything bagel. Everything with the bagel seasoning is a pretty fun way to smoke some salmon.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow, that sounds so good. I'm going to have to stop in next time I'm in Virginia and get some [laughs] and hang out. Do you have any questions for me?
\n\nROBBIE: I'm excited to see where you've gone and how you've gotten here. I think this is such a cool job for you. Knowing who you are as a person and seeing you land in a company like this is really exciting. And I think you getting to be a part of this podcast, which we were joking about earlier, is I've been listening to probably since it started. I've been a big fan for a long time. So, it's cool to be here on this podcast. But it's also cool that my friend is a part of this and gets to be a part of this legacy.
\n\nI'm really excited to see where you go over time. I know my career has been changing, right? I worked in government. Before that, I did all kinds of other stuff. Nowadays I have my own business where I often joke I have sort of, like, three things I offer, which is, like, consigliere services. Wouldn't it be nice to have a Robbie on your executive team without having to pay them an executive salary?
\n\nYou know, another one is like, you know, strategy and mentoring, but these are all things I know you do also, which I think is cool. But I've been working on contracts where I support companies trying to figure out how they modernize, or how their CTO can be more hands-off keyboard, or how their new director of business development can be more of a technical leader and taking on their first direct reports. So, I just enjoy all those aspects, and I just think it's something that I've watched you do in the company where we worked together.
\n\nAnd it's always fun to see what you're working on and getting a chance to catch up with you. I feel like you're one of those people that does a really great job of staying connected. Every once in a while, I'll get a random text message like, "Hey, how you doing?" It always makes me smile. I'm like, Victoria is a really good connector, and I feel like I am, but you're even better at it on the being proactive side. That's how this all came about, right? We caught up, and you were like, "Why don't you come on the podcast?" So, that's really exciting.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, thank you, Robbie. Yeah, I think that's one of the great things about community is you meet people. You're like, "Oh, you're really cool. And you're doing cool stuff all the time. Like, how can I support you in your journey [laughs]? Like, what's up?"
\n\nYeah, for me, it was hard to actually leave DC. I didn't, you know, really think about the impact of leaving behind my tech community, like, that network of people. It was pretty emotional for me, actually, especially when we finally, like, stopped doing the digital version [laughs]. And I, like, kind of gave up managing it from California, which was kind of funny anyways [laughs]. Yeah, so no, I'm grateful that we stayed in touch and that you made time to be here with us today. Is there anything else that you would like to promote?
\n\nROBBIE: You know, just to remind you, you've done a great job of transitioning into where you are today, but anybody can do that, right? Like, before I moved to the DC area, I was in New York, and I was helping to organize JavaScript events. And I started looking at the DC area before I moved down here. And I found the DC Tech Community. And I found the Node School DC GitHub organization and reached out to the person who had ownership of it and said I wanted to help and support.
\n\nI looked at this the other day. I think I moved on May 8th, and then, like, May 11th, when I walked in the door, somebody was like, "Are you new?" And I was like, "Yeah, I just moved here." And they were like, "Oh, from where?" And I was like, "New York." And they were like, "Are you that guy who's been bugging Josh about running Node school events?" I was like, "Yeah." And like, they were planning an unconference at the end of the month. And they were like, "Would you like to run a Node school at that unconference?" Like, 27 days later.
\n\nSo, it was amazing that, like, I immediately, like, fell from the New York Community where I was super connected, but I went out of my way to try to, like, see what the community looked like before I got there. And I was lucky enough to find the right people, and immediately I joked...I think I wrote a blog post that said like, "I found my new friends. By, like, going from one community to another, gave a person who was in his 40s a chance to meet new people very quickly." And it was pretty amazing, and I felt very lucky. But I did spend a little bit of energy and capital to try to figure it out because I knew it was going to be important to me.
\n\nSo, I think you've done a really good job. You've helped launch and relaunch things that were going on in San Diego and becoming a part of this connection to more people. I think you and I have a very similar spirit, which is like, let's find a way to connect with humans, and we do it pretty effectively.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, thank you. That really boosts my confidence, Robbie [laughs]. Sometimes, you show up to an event you've never been to before by yourself, and it's like a deer in headlights kind of moment. Like, oh God, what have I done [laughs]?
\n\nROBBIE: Oh, and the last thing I need to mention is I also have a podcast. I have my podcast about film. It's called Geek on Film. I used to record it with my friend, Jon. He's a little busy right now. But I used to pitch it as a conversation show about the current films that were going on. Now, it's one lone geek's ramblings about what he just saw.
\n\nIt's a great podcast for me because it gives me an opportunity to think a little more critically about film, which is one of the things that I probably have almost enough credits to get a minor in. But I absolutely love cinema and film in general. And it's given me an opportunity to connect with a lot more people about this subject and also to scratch the itch of me being able to create something around a community and around a thing I really love.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's super cool. Yeah. You're top of mind because I also like films. I'm like, what's Robbie up to? Like, what's the recommendations, you know [laughs]? Do you have a top film recommendation from the Oscars? Is that too big of a question?
\n\nROBBIE: So, the one I will say that didn't get enough spotlight shined on it was Nimona. So, I'm a huge fan of the Spider-Man movies. I think Spider-Man Into the Spider-Verse and Across the Spider-Verse are both masterpieces. But Nimona is an animated film that was picked up by Netflix, and it is amazing.
\n\nI don't know that I laughed or cried or was more moved by a film last year. And I don't know that it gets enough credit for what it was. But it did get nominated for best-animated film, but I don't know that enough people paid attention to it. Like it may have gotten lost in the algorithm. So, if you get a chance, check out Nimona. It's one of those beautiful, little gems that, if you travel down its story, there's all these twists and turns.
\n\nIt was based on a webcomic that became a graphic novel. One of the production companies picked it up, and it wasn't going to see the light of day. And then, Netflix bought its distribution rights. There's going to be a great documentary someday about, like, Inside Nimona. But I think the movie itself is really charming and moving, and I was really impressed with it. So, that was the one that got me, like, just before the Oscars this year, where I was like, this is the little animated movie that could, in my opinion. It's so charming.
\n\nVICTORIA: I will definitely have to check that out. Thank you for giving us that recommendation.
\n\nROBBIE: Totally.
\n\nVICTORIA: Final question. I just wanted to see if you had anything to share about being an advisory board member for Gray and for Hutch Studio. Could you tell us a little bit more about that?
\n\nROBBIE: Yeah. So, Gray Digital was founded by a friend of mine. We met through United States Digital Service. And his organization...I had been supporting him for a while and just being behind the scenes, talking to him and talking through business-related issues. And it was really nice. He offered to make me an official advisory board member. It was a great acknowledgment, and I really felt moved. There's some great people that are supporting him and have supported him. They've done really great work. Gray is out there delivering digital services in this space. And I think I was really lucky to be a part of it and to support my friend, Randall.
\n\nHutch is different. Hutch is an organization that's kind of like if you think about it, it almost is a way to support entrepreneurs of color who are trying to make their way into the digital service delivery space. Being an advisory board member there has been really interesting because it's shaping how Hutch provides services and what their approach is to how to support these companies.
\n\nBut over the last year, I've convinced the person who's running it, Stephanie, with a couple of other people, to open the door up or crack the door so we could talk directly and support the individual companies. So, it's been really great to be a Hutch advisory member to help shape how Hutch is approaching things.
\n\nBut I've also been a part of, like, many interview processes. I've reviewed a lot of, like, [inaudible 48:01] who want to join the organization. And I've also created personal relationships with many of the people who are part of Hutch. And, you know, like, you know me personally, so you know I run a Day of the Dead party. We'll just party at my house every year.
\n\nI have a huge amount of affection for Mexican culture and, in general, the approach of how to remember people who are a part of your life. So, this is, like, the perfect way for me to bring people together at my house is to say, like, "Hey, my dad was awesome. What about your family? Who are your people?" What's really nice is that has given me an opportunity to host people at my house.
\n\nAnd I've had Hutch company owners at my house the last couple of years and the person who runs Hutch. So, it's a really great community that I look at that is trying to shape the next emergent companies that are helping deliver digital services across the government. And it's really fun to be early on in their career and help them grow.
\n\nAgain, it seems silly, but it's the thing I care a lot about. How do I connect with people and provide the most value that I can? And this is a way I can provide that value to companies that may also go off and provide that value. It's a little bit of an amplifier. So, I'm a huge fan of what we've been able to accomplish and being a part of it in any way, shape, or form.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, I think that's a really beautiful way to wrap it up.
\n\nROBBIE: Really glad to catch up with you and be a part of this amazing podcast.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, so much fun. Thank you again so much. It was great to be here with you today.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm.
\n\nIf you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on thoughtbotsocial@vguido.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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Sponsored By:
Hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido are joined by Hans Kullberg, Co-Founder and Head of Product at Pathfinder Health. Pathfinder Health is an early-stage startup that provides objective insights into children's developmental health to pediatric clinics. Hans shares his journey, starting with his career on Wall Street, moving through various startup experiences, and finally, his pivotal role at Visa, which was significantly shaped by the tragic loss of his daughter, Aviva. This loss inspired him to focus on helping families get timely and accurate developmental diagnoses for their children.
\n\nThe episode highlights pediatricians' challenges in monitoring developmental health due to time constraints during appointments and the lack of detailed observation that these brief interactions afford. Hans explains how Pathfinder Health aims to address these challenges by enhancing the collaboration between parents and pediatricians through technology, providing detailed tracking and insights into a child's development outside of clinical visits. This includes innovative approaches like using machine learning to analyze video data of children in their natural environments, helping to pinpoint developmental milestones more accurately.
\n\nHans also discusses the broader implications of early and accurate developmental diagnosis by emphasizing the importance of using data to overcome the limitations of current medical practices. By integrating detailed developmental data into health records, Pathfinder Health hopes to transform pediatric care by being able to allow for earlier interventions for its patients.
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Hans Kullberg, Co-Founder and Head of Product at Pathfinder Health, an early-stage pediatric developmental health tech startup focused on bringing objective insights on children's developmental health to pediatric clinics everywhere. Hans, thank you for joining us.
\n\nHANS: Thank you, Will. Thank you, Victoria. It's really awesome to be here.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. Well, I met you at the San Diego Founders Hike at probably 7:30 in the morning on a Friday [laughs] a couple of weeks ago. So, tell me just a little bit more about what do you do for fun around San Diego?
\n\nHANS: Yeah, I do a lot of fun. First of all, I'm a dad of four kids, so that keeps me busy, and it keeps my fun time relegated to the windows that I can do it. But I love to start morning surf right out here in Mission Beach in San Diego. I love to cook for a lot of people, house parties, and as well as hunger suppers. And then, I love playing saxophone when I can.
\n\nVICTORIA: What's your favorite song to play on the saxophone?
\n\nHANS: So, I'm messing around with it right now. I'm not great, but I'm learning Happy Birthday right now.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's a great song, and you have a lot of birthdays to celebrate, it sounds like, over there. So, good to have that handy.
\n\nHANS: Mm-hmm. Yep.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, awesome. Well, why don't you tell us a little bit more about your background and how it led to Pathfinder Health?
\n\nHANS: My background is in data science and economics, and started my career actually on Wall Street, really looking at economic data, things like GDP and inflation, and macroeconomic variables like employment nonfarm payrolls. And I really tried to figure out a way to understand how to predict those at a very high degree of accuracy. That kind of led to my very first startup called, EconoCast, which was fairly successful. And that was exited back in 2013.
\n\nThen I did a few other things, some startups that were successful, others that were not. But then I really wanted to kind of chop my teeth into product and really learn product from the inside out at a much bigger company. So, I joined the innovation team at Visa. I was working on Visa Acceptance Cloud, which is really kind of a point-of-sale solution in the cloud. So, if you're familiar with Apple Pay and Google Pay, it was pretty much the mirror image of that for receiving payments and accepting payments. And that really helps a lot of long-tail merchants, if you will, kind of in places like India, and Nigeria, Brazil, et cetera, that are traditionally accepting cash payments to be able to accept credit and debit payments.
\n\nHowever, life took a turn. And while I was at Visa, my third child, Aviva, passed away. And there's, you know, a lot of backstory on that side, but she still doesn't have a diagnosis to this day. It was certainly the hardest part of my life and time of my life for my wife, my family. And I took some time off, really embraced the grieving process, but really tried to figure out what I wanted to do next. And really, that centered around a promise that I made to my daughter was to really try to get parents and families the answers that they deserve to really understand their diagnosis.
\n\nSo, I talked to a lot of different people in the healthcare community, trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my particular background in data science and technology and building products to be able to kind of marry that with getting parents the answers that they need. And so, that's where I really came in contact with my co-founders at Pathfinder Health to really build what we believe is the most advanced way to really help pediatricians and providers understand how children are developing outside the clinic by collaborating, having parents and pediatricians really collaborate to understand the development across social, emotional, language, cognitive, and movement, all of those things that happen that require observation where pediatricians just have very little time.
\n\nAnd we really kind of package that in a way to give them a snapshot of how they're developing relative to the peer group, to really kind of clarify a lot of these gray areas, if you will, and not take that wait-and-see approach, but rather to make that referral or diagnosis or get them on any kind of therapy that they need as soon as possible. And really, that's the diagnosis that this problem. The meta-problem that we're trying to solve is 25% of all children have some type of developmental delay, yet only 3% get diagnosed before the age of 3. And so, that's, you know, something very near and dear to my heart and something I'm working on every single day. That's how I got to where I am.
\n\nWILL: Wow. I am so sorry to hear about your daughter. And I'll just be totally honest: that's one of my biggest fears as a dad. So yeah, I am so sorry to hear that about your daughter. What was that situation like? How long ago was it? And kind of not having to answer, like, where are you at with that?
\n\nHANS: My daughter was born in January of 2020. Aviva lived for over ten months, and she passed away here in San Diego in November of 2020. I won't get into the background of it, but the short end of it is she never really had a diagnosis. But she had some anomalies that really created a condition called bradycardia, which is slow heart rate, only intermittently. It happened every couple of months. So, it wasn't really even a daily thing. Doctors didn't have any answers for it. We saw teams of specialists and I'm talking about cardiologists, neurologists, mitochondrial specialists, pulmonologists, every single type of specialist under the sun.
\n\nBut throughout six different hospitalizations and then the autopsy afterwards, they never figured out what the root cause was. And she had some signs that were different, but, you know, we live in this world where data is abundance. Generative AI is huge, right? We have all these tools and everything else, but yet when it comes to medicine, a lot of times we rely on the human knowledge of the physicians that we see. I'm not saying that they did anything wrong because they did the best they could.
\n\nBut what really upset me was that, you know, we go through this differential diagnosis of A, B, C, D, and this and the other, and they all strike out. You know, what's the backup plan? And that's where, you know, we should be using a lot more data at the big data level to really understand, you know, these anomalies. And maybe someone out there had something similar that she did or maybe a doctor in New York, or Boston, or Atlanta, or Miami somewhere would have known what to do. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case.
\n\nAnd really, that set me off my journey, really trying to understand that problem, in particular. There's a lot of things that kind of stand in the way from real AI being used in medicine. Of course, radiology is one exception. But when it comes down to interoperability of electronic health records as well as HIPAA, and privacy, and all the data silos they're in, Google's tried at this for a while to get to a place where you can have more precise type of data from a diagnostic perspective. Similar to the way that Facebook, and Amazon, and the Googles of the world know precisely how likely you are to click a button, I think medicine should be moving in that form and fashion. And so, yeah, that's really where I came across this journey.
\n\nAnd the grieving process that's a whole 'nother subject as well, but I'm a very big believer in embracing that. Each of us took a year off and really just made sure that we were taking a lot of self-care and healing. And I went to therapy for the first time in my life, did a lot of writing and a lot of other therapeutic activities, including writing children's books. So, I'm a children's book author. And that's kind of what led me to finding out what I wanted to do on a day-in, day-out basis to help parents get the answers they need, knowing that, you know, mom and dad play a very big role in this, those first five years of life which, in my opinion, are the most critical and crucial and also the most precious years of your life.
\n\nVICTORIA: You know, I really admire how you took such a painful moment and turned it into, how do I solve this problem for other people and really build community off of that as well? I don't have kids myself, but I have a niece and nephew who's two and four now. And I remember watching my sister-in-law try to keep track of all of the things that are happening for her child in the first year of their life, and it's not easy. And how do you identify if something has gone wrong? And I'm curious, like, what you learned from that process, or if you've learned anything about that process that's shifted your direction with Pathfinder.
\n\nHANS: I mean, the biggest takeaway from my own personal experience is knowing that parents can play a very proactive role, an important role in the care for their child. And so, when you look at the pediatric visit, and, Will, you probably can relate to this, you know, for 15 minutes, you know, they're checking your eyes, ears, throat, heart, giving you your vaccines, et cetera. And there's a lot of different things they have to do to check off on their task list.
\n\nBut yeah, when it comes down to developmental health, we're talking about social, emotional cues, movement, cognitive, and language; it really requires observation. And they have very little time for that. Plus, you know, kids never [inaudible 08:49] themselves. There's well-child visits as well. It sort of leads to a lot of these gray areas. You know, on average, a pediatrician sees about 20 to 24 different kiddos a day, which is quite a heavy burden. They're definitely the most overworked and underpaid specialists across the whole healthcare system.
\n\nBut when you think about it, you know, what they do after the well-child visits is they give usually mom or dad a two-page handout of "This is..." you know, "Your child is two years old, and here's what you can do." A lot of times those handouts just, you know, get lost, and they're very not personalized.
\n\nSo, what we're doing we're a team of developmental-behavioral pediatricians, as well as early childhood specialist. We're talking about occupational therapists, physical therapists, child psychologists, and speech therapists. We're really combining all our interdisciplinary skills as well as machine learning experts on our team to be able to give parents the type of knowledge that's packaged in a way, on a parent level, that they really can understand how to track, monitor their child's growth and development. But also, if they're falling behind, or even if they're ahead, be able to enhance their development through daily activities that are tailored and customized to each individual's unique developmental trajectory.
\n\nAnd so, we've come up with what's called developmental biomarkers, similar to what you know as height and weight charts, to really measure and monitor a child's progress versus peers. On the physical side, we're doing that across all of those developmental domains and being able to make those conversations, and insights, and visits with the doctor a lot more comprehensive in scope, including video-based data, where we kind of isolate the milestones. We call it smart detection, really show the parents what those milestones are happening.
\n\nParents know a lot about walking, talking, sitting, rolling over, but there's over 400 milestones that happen in the first five years of life. And so, being able to kind of understand pincer grip, you know, picking up a cheerio or looking when you call their name those are really big milestones that are very significant when it comes to determining where that child stands relative to their peers. So, yeah, that's a little how it works at a high level.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. Wow. I want to go back and tell you this just so that...I try to whenever I think of something, especially positive, I just try to tell people. And so, like, your inspiration of how you dealt with your child's passing away and everything...because I think the statistics and what I've heard is most people hit a downward spiral. Most marriages don't make it. So, it's very inspiring to hear that you grieved and you worked through the process. So, I just want you to know that, like, that's super, even for me, that's super inspiring to know that that is even possible in that situation. So, I just want you to know that.
\n\nHANS: Yeah. And I'm glad that you brought up that point. You're absolutely correct. I think over 50% of couples do get divorced after a death of a child. And a lot of times, it's not the event itself. Certainly, losing a child is very, very painful. But the cause of that separation is really the differences in the way that each other grieve, you know, the spouses grieve. And that's something that, honestly, you don't learn until you're going through it.
\n\nAnd so, what we did was, just like other things in our life, we were very intentional about it and really sought out as much help and support through books. Books were fantastic, also grieving groups. There's a lot of great different grieving groups out there to really understand that, hey, you're not necessarily alone. Certainly, the pain of losing a child is definitely, in my opinion, the hardest thing that anyone can go through. But in terms of being able to empathize and even commiserate, but even to hear other people's stories, you start to learn, you know, what that journey looks like five years, ten years, 20 years down the road.
\n\nBut you also, you know, one of the things that I say is there's no right way to grieve at all. You can't tell someone how to grieve. But there is a wrong way to grieve. And I know that sounds like an oxymoron. But the wrong way to grieve is not doing it at all. And that's usually where we saw a lot of people kind of turn to negative addiction, or self-inflicted behaviors, or a lot of other things where they try to bottle it up, put it away, lock it in the closet and not think about it, you know, maybe bury their heads in work or any other kinds of addictions.
\n\nThat's something we learned very, very early on that we try to be conscientious of and try to really steer clear from. But, again, it's a very individually unique path, and I'm definitely not an expert at all, but have certainly learned, you know, tenfold what I didn't know about grief beforehand. And so, you really don't know grief until you actually go through it.
\n\nIn terms of being able to kind of parlay that into motivation to help others...and really, for me, that's my North star is really helping others, if that's helping detect diagnosis, or even, you know, just smiling to the person on the street, you know, that's what really gives me a lot of fulfillment. And so, in terms of that motivation, where does that come from, and how do you actually take that grief and transcend that into something productive like that?
\n\nThe only thing I can actually say to all the parents that are listening out there it's akin to when you hold your firstborn, especially when you become a new parent. And you have that magical feeling where you're holding that small, little infant in your arms. And you have this great burden of responsibility as well. And you start thinking to yourself, man, now it's not just my life that I'm in charge of. I'm in charge of this little human being's life, who you have to do everything for them.
\n\nAnd so, that inspiration to be the better parent or better person that you feel as a new parent is only correlated, I would describe, to actually losing a child where that same feeling is, I would say, magnified times 3. And that's, you know, for me, I know my daughter's looking down on us, and I know that she's behind a lot of things that I'm doing, but I'm certainly inspired in a whole 'nother way apart from being just a parent.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, definitely. You said something that really caught my attention. Like, it was around how when you're holding your child, like, you're responsible for your child. I have a background in sports medicine, spent four years doing it. I still have no idea a lot of medical history when it comes to a kid. I feel like majority of the items that you're supposed to be looking for or even thinking about is totally different with a kid.
\n\nI don't know how to say this, but, like, the healthcare, the more that I have my kids, I'm seeing that there's different sides of healthcare. So, we moved from North Carolina. Our first pediatrician we loved. Every time we had an appointment, probably spent 30 to 40 minutes just talking us through, hanging out with our kids, asking questions. You know, they always gave us this list beforehand to say, "Hey, look out for these things. When you come in the office, we're going to ask you, 'Have you noticed it, or how are they doing with that?'"
\n\nAnd then, we moved to South Florida, and it's been totally different. Totally different. We had to fire one pediatrician because it wasn't the same care. The pediatrician we're at now is a lot better, but it's nowhere near what North Carolina was. And so, there's a lot of times that we're questioning ourselves. It's like, what does the development of our kid look like?
\n\nMy oldest he had a tongue tie where he couldn't touch the top of his mouth, and we didn't know how important that was to take care of. We finally got it taken care of, but he is delayed in speech because he couldn't touch the top of his mouth. So, whenever I saw that we were going to have this podcast interview, I was just so excited because this is a huge issue. As a parent of three, this is a huge issue because you just don't know. And even when I didn't have kids, the knowledge that I had of even being a parent, yeah, I didn't know anything [laughs], and it's just learning on the go. So, everything you're doing is just speaking to me, and you are helping people. It's needed out there. So, I am so excited that you're doing it.
\n\nHANS: That warms my heart. Thank you, Will, for saying that because I didn't realize that you're actually from North Carolina. I'm from North Carolina myself from a little town called Gastonia. But when it comes to, you know, developmental health, it is the biggest gray area in all of pediatrics. And we know that pediatricians just don't have the time. That's a very big burden.
\n\nIn addition, when it comes to specialists, we're talking about, you know, autism, for instance. You know, they have to be diagnosed through developmental-behavioral pediatricians or a child psychologist, and there's just a very big dearth of them. There's long waiting lines. It could be 12 to 18 months to actually get in front of them and get that evaluation, and then another 6 to 9 months to actually get therapy. And by that time, there's a lot of time lost, which is absolutely precious when it comes to the child.
\n\n90% of your child's brain, actually, develops by the time they're three years old. Another stat that parents actually don't know is that there's centers called Early Intervention Service Centers across the U.S. There's over 4,000. Their specific remit, their mandate is actually to go out and find children in their community, in the region, that do have developmental delay. And, you know, it's a very labor-intensive process to do that. I've actually done it here with my fourth child here in San Diego.
\n\nThey send out two therapists. They come in, do an evaluation, talk to the parent, see how they're doing, jot down some notes, you know, it's at least an hour of their time, driving included, but it's a very kind of manually intensive process. And what we can do is really be able to preempt that and really give parents the fidelity and advocacy to speak on behalf of their child. And I would say that's the number one thing that our parents say is they thought there was a concern. They knew there was some kind of gray area.
\n\nAnd we know that there's a lot of stigma and denial around delays. What we're trying to do is actually lower that barrier so they have the wherewithal to actually have that conversation with their pediatrician. And simply to ask that question from a clinical-based evidence perspective, you know, that could do wonders, you know. If a kid's not speaking by the time they're two years old, if they're not saying a word, that's a big red flag. And a lot of the de facto status quo, a pediatrician will say, "Well, let's just wait till the next visit because every single child develops uniquely," which they do. But their next visit is at three years old, 12 months later. And that's time that's lost in that process.
\n\nApart from the evaluation, they can actually do at-home interventions. There are a lot of different activities and modules that we have for parents to actually be more proactive in enhancing that child's development along the way. And so, yeah, at the end of the day, we're committed to making sure parents have those tools and knowledge that's necessary.
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\n\nVICTORIA: As a head of product, how do you approach the design for the app you're building given just how complex it is? And you said there's 400 milestones in the first 5 years to track. How do you prioritize which one to do first?
\n\n[chuckles]
\n\nHANS: Yeah, that's a good question. And now I get into the nitty-gritty. But there's certainly been a lot of focus, and it really starts with the users, and so that's both parents as well as pediatricians. And so, personally, I've visited, even in six months, I've visited over 70 different pediatric clinics here in Southern California as well as New York and Washington State, you know, really talking to pediatricians and really understanding what would actually help, you know, make it a lot more useful and helpful for them in their own day to day.
\n\nYou know, the biggest capacity constraint is really their time crunch. And so, can you get me those answers immediately? And they tell us they don't want to go to some other system. So, we've integrated directly into almost a hundred different EHRs (Electronic Health Records) across the board to the point where parents can actually just search for their pediatrician on our app and then be able to send their data directly to the pediatrician. Because when it comes down to trust, in healthcare, it's all about trust. Parents really trust the pediatrician the most at the end of the day, and so getting them on board and making sure that they're the biggest advocates for our platform will speak a lot more than just having our app in the App Store, which it is.
\n\nBut in terms of the parent's side, we want them to have a really great and engaging experience where they're getting a lot of joy. We could talk about this concept called burst of joy from watching their child grow and develop. And so, there's a fine line between creating too much anxiety versus giving more information. And when it comes to development [chuckles], there's a very fine line on that. But being able to kind of track those milestones on a continuous basis, not just that point in time, you know, that one time, you know, every three, six months that they're in the doctor's office, but even on a weekly basis, kind of seeing that growth that actually happens organically on a day-to-day basis is a huge part of the parent experience.
\n\nBeing able to kind of look and see what that is, why it's important, and oh, by the way, if the child's not doing that, here's some activities that you can do to really help them excel and get to the next level, you know, that's the type of thought process. And if you do have concerns, here's resources. We put together these 4,000 early intervention centers, where on the web, you have to go to each individual website. We basically just took all the information and just put it right there in one place where it's just a zip code lookup functionality.
\n\nAnd so, a lot of those types of approaches is really great. I think, in the future, being able to connect directly with therapists and providers might be another step because we know that the gaps in care is really one of the most critical problem. Right now, we're trying to solve that through that parent-led approach. But even reducing that 6 to 9 months down to 1 or 2 weeks, I think, that's actually a possibility.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love how you described it as what you're going for is a burst of joy and that you want to focus on having it be a joyful experience for parents. And it should be because I have also seen the anxiety part and how anxiety-inducing it can be when you're trying to keep track of all these different milestones. And, like you said, you have a handout from your doctor, or maybe you're looking up things on TikTok or Instagram [laughs]. How do you work those emotions into your design? Can you say a little bit more about that?
\n\nHANS: Yeah. So, for example, after completing an activity...so, we have all these daily activities that you can do. We start the app. We've got inspired from Headspace in terms of what they ask you to do. Here's 2 or 3 things that you can do with your child. We start with an activity, and it takes nothing more than items lying around in your home.
\n\nWe believe in this concept of serve and return approach when it comes to that parent-child interaction. And so, you have those materials. You have the 10, 15 minutes that you have with your child. You're asking yourself, like, "What can I actually do to really stimulate development?" We want to meet them where they are. So, we have even at bath time, or on the playground, or in a car ride, or while you're doing laundry, sorting socks, right? Any place in time could actually have that really great approach.
\n\nAnd then, after completion of the activity, we have this kind of pop-up that it's almost like an accomplishment, like, we did it as a joint team, as a joint effort, with a little celebration and kind of that approach. And then, also, when you're checking off milestones, and when you check off frequently on our app, there's little hearts that kind of come out of the button to celebrate this little...we call them smilestones, but it's a small part of that celebration that happens day in, day out.
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm definitely going to say smilestones to my team next week. That's how we're going to rebrand our milestones as as well. I love it.
\n\nHANS: Yeah. I don't think that's copyrighted, so go ahead. Take it away.
\n\nWILL: What is your, I'll use that, smilestone for the next six months or, you know, next year? What's in the future? I saw on your website you're incorporating some AI into it. So, can you talk about that and anything else that you have coming up?
\n\nHANS: Yeah. So, one of the places where we're really, you know, focusing on is really getting objective about the data. So, we want to take a lot of the subjectivity, a lot of the guesswork, a lot of the recall bias, even misinterpretation of milestones, as well as language barriers of milestones. And so, just really being able to not just have the parent kind of fill out, you know, the checklist, but also, being able to incorporate the videos component as well. And so, being able to upload any kind of video of the child at the dinner table, playing with friends in the playground, playing at home in the living room. Parents have tons of these videos, right?
\n\nWe're able to kind of spot and detect where those milestones are actually taking place. And so, we can isolate that three to five seconds of, here's where their child's doing the pincer grip, which is basically picking up a cheerio between your forefinger and thumb, and really being able to kind of give that validation and confirmation to the parents so they can actually say, "Oh, wow, my child actually did this new thing that I actually didn't even know about."
\n\nBut on top of that, being able to turn that into a highlight reel, you know, similar to like SportsCenter highlight reel. Like, you're taking all of those different clips and turn that into maybe a 60-second highlight reel of everything that happened that transpired in between the last visit. So, when you talk about going from, like, a 12-month visit to an 18-month visit, here's all the things, in 60 seconds, that the kid's been doing to give a lot more comprehensive evaluation for their pediatrician to make better decisions at the end of the day.
\n\nAgain, we are clinical decision support. We're not making the diagnosis ourselves. We leave that to the providers. But what we believe in our ethos is really giving all that information and packaging it up so that those decisions can be much better made at the end of the day. So, that's one use case of AI.
\n\nBut there's still a human element to it right now, but we want to be able to kind of transpire that to a fully autonomous computer vision, which, when you look at generative AI, understanding videos and being able to detect that when you think about all of the different angles, shapes, lighting, et cetera, it's the, I would say, the last frontier of being able to kind of get data insights out of videos itself. It's very easy to go from having a text prompt and generating a video from it. It's much harder to take a video and spitting back out what we have as milestones. So, that's one part.
\n\nAnd the other is developmental biomarkers which is another...what we think is groundbreaking in the pediatric space.
\n\nVICTORIA: Can you explain what developmental biomarker is?
\n\nHANS: Yeah. So, it's a concept similar to what we know as the height and weight chart. And when I first became a parent, a lot of times you're speaking with other new parents, and you are, you know, on the playground, right? And they're saying that "Hey, my kid is on the 90th percentile in height or weight," or "Hey, they're 80th percentile on head circumference," because that's literally, like, as a new parent, like, that's the only basis you have other than their sleep habits, which, Will, I know you can probably attest to most parents track a lot.
\n\nBut similar to that, like, in terms of, you know, how developmental tracking is done right now, the status quo is using developmental screeners. And so, that's, again, point in time, static approach while you're in the well-child visit. But the problem with developmental screeners is it has what's called a low sensitivity and specificity in terms of really over-detecting or over-failing basically one side of the distribution. So, it's typically 40% to 50% of kids would fail a screener when, in reality it should be around 20 to 25.
\n\nTo really get more granular and very objective about understanding a child's developmental trend, one has to kind of be able to, we believe, understand both the right and the left side of the distribution and being able to understand, hey, is this child actually tracking ahead of the curve or behind the curve relative to everyone else?
\n\nAnd so, we've developed an algorithm. It's fairly complex, but it uses a lot of the underlying data sets that we have to kind of give a much more high-fidelity picture of, hey, your child's in the 60th to 65th percentile. At the end of the day, we want to be able to identify delays. And so, anything below 20% or so, you know, parents should be more informed about that and looking at it on a domain-by-domain specific level.
\n\nSo, it's very common for a kid to be accelerated on 3 of the four domains, but maybe they're behind on speech. And so, what does the doctor do with that? If they're at 15th percentile in speech, they can then come in the clinic and say, "Hey, I see the screening results, but I also see this Pathfinder report. Let's spend the next 5 to 10 minutes actually seeing how you verbalize and how you're able to speak and express yourself." So, that's really what we're talking about when it comes to developmental biomarkers.
\n\nVICTORIA: Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. I think I knew what you were referring to, but I wanted to make sure [laughs], but that makes sense. So, it's like whatever the data that helps the parent identify where there might be an area that some intervention or some more time might need to be taken to help move them forward.
\n\nHANS: It is on a longitudinal basis, which, if you're in healthcare, you know longitudinal trend. Really understanding what that looks like is hugely important versus point in time. And so, we're able to see it not just at the sixth month and nine month, but every day in between as well. And we believe, you know, the early results are kind of showing that we're able to even preempt what those potential red flags will look like, or a failed screening result will look like at an earlier rate as well.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really interesting. I'm curious if you have other statistics like that or some results from the first year, almost two years of data that you have now, on how people are interacting with the app. And what kind of outcomes are you getting?
\n\nHANS: Yeah, as I said, you know, the biggest outcome is really being able to give parents a really highly objective look at how their children are developing, and so giving them the level of advocacy to speak on the child's behalf with clinical evidence. If you look at our testimonials, that's probably the number one thing. We have different personas for different types of moms.
\n\nBut there's some moms that are the Nervous Nellies, the ones that are concerned about every single cut, scrape, and bruise. There's also the Inkling Ingrids, the ones that think there might be something there, but they're not necessarily sure. But then there's also the Ambitious Amandas, these types of moms that want to put their kids in every single type of advanced activity, right? Music classes, Legos, et cetera. And then, the Brand New Brendas, the ones that are brand new to parenting and want to know, learn, explore, and track the child's development.
\n\nSo yeah, there's different things for different types of personas that we have. By and large, it's really giving that information in a very parent-friendly way so it's not overwhelming them with too much anxiety or, you know, going over their heads as a lot of times medical jargon does as well.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow. That's great. Thank you for sharing that. And I wonder, actually, Hans, I wanted to ask you a question about bias and about bias in AI and in health tech. And how do you approach that in Pathfinder and making sure that everyone's getting equitable health incomes and recommendations within the app?
\n\nHANS: Yeah, bias and accessibility are two big topics that we think a lot about, you know, first of all, on the underlying data bias, you know, that could present itself. Right now, our app is available on App Store and Play Store. We have over 50,000 parents, you know, still small but growing in about 120 different countries, mainly English-speaking ones, because right now the app is completely in English. That's about to change. We're about to go multilingual, starting with Spanish, which is definitely the biggest request.
\n\nBut so, when it comes to, like, being able to compare across different groups and subsets, you know, we do believe we have a fairly heterogeneous group. Only about 50% of our users are actually here in the U.S. In terms of the actual milestones themselves, there could be, you know, some differences in cultures. Something like "Eats with a fork" is a milestone that happens, I think, around two or three years old. You know, in cultures like India, for instance, they usually eat with their hands for a lot of time. So, that would be obviously a difference. That milestone wouldn't necessarily apply as much.
\n\nBut then when you talk about accessibility, one of the things that we screen for in our standard screening that we do have, and I forgot to mention this earlier up front, we almost have, like, a four-legged stool, if you will, in terms of the underlying data that we capture. One is standard screeners because that is status quo. That is reimbursed on the pediatrician's side. And the biggest value prop to pediatricians to adopt our platform is, hey, we can help you get towards 100% developmental screen adherence, which right now it's only about 60 or even less than 50% across the board. So, that's a reimbursable event. So, that's layer 1.
\n\nLayer 2 is parent concerns, caption that in a good, valid way, and then continuous milestone tracking. And then, finally, the videos as well. So, certainly, some parents don't submit videos for privacy reasons, which is okay. We still have all of the other 3. So, going back to social determinants of health and health equity, that's one of the things that we screen for as well, knowing that the more vulnerable populations and minorities, lower socioeconomic classes, actually do have a higher prevalence of delays. And so, we want to be able to be accessible to them as much as we can but also, raise those things to the surface when it comes to getting those answers to pediatricians.
\n\nThere's another big movement happening called Adverse Childhood Experiences screeners (ACEs) that really looks at, you know, how the child's been developing and what their background, their environment actually looks like. So, looking at those questions of, is that child being raised in an environment of neglect, or abuse, or a broken home, or drug addictions in the home? Those can really have an effect, not just on the early part of life, but even later in life when you talk about physical as well as mental well-being. And so, just having that awareness and that insight into how that child's been developing is really important on the background side.
\n\nAnd so, at the end of the day, when we're talking about who actually holds the bag, if you will, in terms of this big gap that we're trying to solve, at the end of the day, it's really the government. If the child does have a delay that doesn't get addressed at an early age, doesn't get, you know, therapy, a lot of times, it leads on to run-on consequences, whether that's mental issues or maybe not being able to be self-sufficient, independent, job seeking, tax-paying, delinquencies. There's a lot of different ramifications from things that happen at a very early age.
\n\nThat's where we believe in partnership with Medicaid through clinics like Federal Qualified Health Centers that focus on the Medicaid population, which 38% of all kids fall under, those are ideal partners for us. It's a longer, harder slog and a long road. But we believe there's a lot that we can offer at that level as well as more ACO and value-based payer type of model.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Hans, for coming on and sharing your story with us. Do you have anything that you would like to promote?
\n\nHANS: I know we didn't get a chance to speak about it, but the children's book I've written very near and dear to my heart is called Baby Aviva, Orangutan Diva. You can get that out on Amazon, anywhere. But it's A-V-I-V-A. If you're a parent and if you have a kid under the age of five, feel free to check out our app called Pathfinder Health. And Pathfinder is just one word on the App Store and Play Store. But thank you, Will, and thank you, Victoria.
\n\nWILL: Thank you. It was great talking to you. And I'm going to go download the app.
\n\nHANS: Absolutely. Thanks so much. And I really appreciate it.
\n\nWILL: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nVICTORIA: And you can find me on X or Twitter [laughs] @victori_ousg or on Mastodon @thoughtbotsocial@vguido.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.
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Host Victoria Guido connects with Francis Lacoste, a seasoned VPE and CTO coach. He details his unexpected journey from an aspiring cinema professional to a key player in the tech industry after honing his remote-first work culture skills. He delves into his move toward coaching, emphasizing his commitment to developing engineering management talent and his dedication to building strong engineering cultures and leadership within organizations.
\n\nFrancis discusses the psychological aspects of leadership, such as the importance of psychological safety and the role of trust in organizational effectiveness. He also reflects on the nuances of transitioning from hands-on technical work to strategic leadership roles, emphasizing the critical soft skills necessary for effective leadership.
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Francis Lacoste, VPE and CTO coach. Francis, thank you for joining me.
\n\nFRANCIS: My pleasure, Victoria. Thanks for having me.
\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you. Well, it's a beautiful spring day today. And just to get us started and warmed up a little bit, I wonder if you could tell me about what is your favorite winter activity?
\n\nFRANCIS: Cross-country skiing without doubt. I did a lot of alpine skiing when I was a kid. Could still do it, but really I found alpine, just skiing through parks and the calm of winter, is a very relaxing activity. And I use that as basically my workout. There's a park nearby the school of one of my kids. So, I drop him at school, then go do a few laps in the park near the river. It's beautiful. Unfortunately, this was a winter without almost any snow. So, I could only do four outings this year, which I need to do other workouts because that's not enough.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow. That's really cool. How long have you been cross-country skiing then?
\n\nFRANCIS: I started doing that as a kid, but regularly only in the past, I'd say, four or five years. I bought some skis. Before that, I would only rent. So, that allowed me to do it more regularly.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's interesting. I am cross-country ski curious because I've tried regular skiing the last couple of years, and I've found that it's way too fast for me personally [laughter]. So, I'm not sure. I think I might like it.
\n\nFRANCIS: Yeah. I mean, cross-country skiing is more like jogging in a way because it's very cardio, unlike Alpine skiing, downhill skiing, where if you don't work hard, you can go very fast. You know, if you want to go slow, it's actually...you have to put in a lot of effort in downhill skiing, but cross-country skiing it's kind of like jogging. You're gliding on the snow and getting some momentum. I mean, if it's not flat, then it becomes a little bit more fiddly, but I do mostly flat courses because if you have, like, some slope, then it requires other technique, and it's actually harder to control than Alpine skiing.
\n\nVICTORIA: Ooh. Well, I was going to say it sounds like my type of thing until the last part you said there [laughter]. I was like, oh, that's the part that I'm scared of. Well, I don't know, I don't get a chance to go skiing too often down here in San Diego, but I should go up to, like, Mammoth Mountain and things like that more often. But we got a ton of snow this year, so you'll have to come West and visit us sometime.
\n\nFRANCIS: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, wonderful. Well, Francis, tell me a little bit about your background and what led you to your coaching career here.
\n\nFRANCIS: I've been working in software forever, basically. Fun fact: I wanted to go into cinema, and that's what I studied at university, but kept ending up in programming job basically, or programming endeavors. And this was, like, the beginning of the commercial internet, end of the '90s, and was very much into free software and open source, and that's how I got started as a software engineer. And eventually ended up at Canonical, which is still is; they celebrated their 20 years this year; the company that founded Ubuntu, the Linux distribution, which was very popular and still is to a large extent.
\n\nThat's where I kind of left, transitioned into software management, engineering management over there. I didn't know at all what I was getting into. I was on parental leave at the time, and my boss left a message to say, "Hey, we're thinking of creating teams, and we think you'd be a good fit for one of the team lead. Let me know what you think." And I said, "Yes," really, not knowing that this was a totally different job.
\n\nFortunately, I got good mentors and found out I enjoyed that. And then, after Canonical, I moved to Heroku, which I joined to help build a remote culture there because, at that point, the company was hiring more and more remote. And Canonical was a remote-first company. I mean, I've been working remotely for 25 years, almost, at this point. So, kind of had a good experience there, and at Heroku, really that, I kind of discovered coaching.
\n\nI joined as a director, and then a few years in, there was a reorg. I ended up again with a single team to manage, which was, okay, I can do that. That's fine. Fortunately, I mean, by coincidence or luck, there was a guy on the team who wanted to become an engineering manager. He was already running most of the ceremonies of the team. And I said, "Oh, great [laughs]. What I love about being a director is growing engineering managers. So, I'm going to mentor you and help you de facto run the team, do the things that you're not in a position to do yet but eventually will transition that," which left me with a lot of time.
\n\nMy VP was supportive of this, and we had a lot of new first-time engineering managers at the time, so we didn't have a lot of people who had experience as engineering managers. So, I offered to mentor and coach internally. A lot of people took me up on that offer. So, I ended up doing that and eventually ended up with, like, running a large org again, but continuing doing that part. And this was the part that I kind of enjoyed the most [laughs] in my role, in a way.
\n\nSo, I think it was 2019. So, five years ago, I was running seven teams. It was the largest department, engineering department at Heroku. Things were fine, you know. But when I was stopping for summer vacation or winter vacation, I realized that the day before going back to work, I was kind of not looking forward to it. That was kind of a sign. And it was very subtle because, like, a week later, everything was fine again, you know, loved the people and the company and what we were doing. But there was something, like, deep down, I was not, like, fulfilled by the role.
\n\nI did some soul searching and then realized, okay, what I really like is not running the organization but more, like, the mentoring, the nurturing of the culture. I was also doing a training at the time, working with groups, group facilitation, and so, like, working more, like, with advising leadership teams, that sort of thing.
\n\nI went to my VP and told him, "Look, I realize this is not fulfilling for me. Don't freak out. I'm not quitting [laughs] yet, you know. I can do this for a year again. But if there is...then my next role is going to be consulting around engineering culture. But if there's a role, you know, where an organization is large, more aligned with this, I'd be happy to continue working at Heroku and Salesforce," because Heroku was part of Salesforce ever since I joined.
\n\nSo, he and the SVP were kind of thrilled by that idea. So, I became Chief of Staff for Heroku and start working with the whole engineering exec team. And that was great for six months. And then Salesforce did a big reorg, and I ended up...all the exec left, and Heroku engineering was kind of split apart and refactored into the normal Salesforce engineering. Fortunately for me, the EVP I had a relationship with him, and he knew what I was doing. And he took my role and said, like, "We like what you did with Heroku culture. Can you help us do that across all of platform?" So, I ended up doing culture work for one of the largest departments at Salesforce. At the time, it was 1,500 people.
\n\nIt was very scary in a way, in the sense that I knew this was the next step, you know, after Heroku, but I went from 150 engineers to 150. There were more engineering managers in platform than there were engineers at Heroku. So it was kind of, okay, I need to rethink my strategy and stuff like that.
\n\nAnd then, that lasted until last year, and then there were the layoffs at Salesforce, and culture is one of the first thing that is usually cut. So, I got cut, which was fine because I kind of knew, okay, my next step after Salesforce was consulting around engineering culture. So, that's when I launched my business and decided to focus on coaching because that's what I had continued doing in the meantime and was finding the most fulfilling.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really interesting. Thank you for sharing all of that context. I have a lot of questions to follow up, but to recap a little bit, it sounds like you started as a software developer. You worked your way up to engineering management and then focused on coaching other leaders throughout your career. And now you're doing that as part of your own business. So, you founded your own company to just do that, which sounds super interesting.
\n\nFRANCIS: Exactly. Yes. So, my focus is on I coach VP of engineering and CTOs at scaling startup. Like I said, I started coaching engineering managers at Heroku, and a lot of them eventually became directors. And at a large organization like Salesforce, after director, the next steps up there are a few opportunities in a way. So, you need to be at the right place at the right time, but otherwise, there's not just a lot of opportunities.
\n\nAnd meanwhile, they get hit every week by recruiters on LinkedIn say, "Hey, come join our startup as VP of engineering," or CTO and things like that. A lot of them actually jumped ship to such role, and I continue coaching them in that capacity. And that was really just rewarding seeing the impact that these people have.
\n\nSo, last year when I started, I had a question around, okay, what is my offer? I want great engineering culture, but what is the offer? Then, looking at what I did, it's kind of, oh, well, this work I've done with all of these folks, this was always pleasurable and fulfilling to me. And coaching is a known offering, so there's probably something there. So, this was kind of what's kind of the business aspect of it.
\n\nAnd the mission aspect is that...and I do other things than coaching. I do workshops and things like that. But my experience is that unless the executive, you know, the founder, the top leaders are not committed and bought in in creating a great culture and personally working on themselves, because that's required, you can bring, like, workshops to the team. You can...great process in place. You can do a lot of great things, which has an impact, but then it's not built on solid ground in a way because at the first reorg or the first, like, change [inaudible 10:31], then all of this work becomes very shaky ground. So, to me, it was kind of, oh yes, I need to start with coaching the CTOs and VPs, and that will ensure that there's actually potential for a great culture there.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really interesting. So, yeah, the coaching part is the key part and, like, the culture is number one. So, if you were talking to a new CTO, what kind of questions would you ask them to kind of gauge where they're at with their engineering culture?
\n\nFRANCIS: The first question I always ask is, well, do you have, like, principles or values around that? And it's surprising. I come from Salesforce, which is a value-driven company, and there's a lot of startups that [inaudible 11:11]. It's kind of the playbook, you know, defining your company values. But still, there's a lot of people who've done it or who've not done it or done it, but it's kind of more like an exercise, and it's not, like, integrated.
\n\nSo, really, this is where usually I start when we're looking at culture is kind of what are your values, and are these values enacted, you know, manifested in your organization? Are they part of the day-to-day decision-making, the hiring process, the performance evaluation? And not just that, you know, also, when you're designing something internally, we're putting in place, like, a code review process. Well, how is that related to our values or not?
\n\nAnd this is something I was fortunate because Salesforce it's a huge corporation, but still, they're serious about values there. And it is used, and they are living their values, not perfectly, I mean, it's still humans, and it's still a business. But these day-to-day decision-making values are definitely taken care of, and it's not just words on the wall.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. I think the second part of what you said there is the hardest part, not just what are your values, but how do you use those values in your everyday decision-making?
\n\nFRANCIS: Yes.
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\n\nVICTORIA: I'm interested in what it takes to be a CTO and go from that startup mentality into starting to think about how you're going to scale this organization. Because what I see a lot of times a CTO in an early-stage startup is the main developer also [chuckles] and has built the whole app. So, how do you think about that? What kinds of things do you start to delve into after the values, and how a CTO can transition into that role, into the scaling and leading larger teams?
\n\nFRANCIS: Yeah, no, you're totally spot on here, Victoria, because CTO is one of these...somebody asked me once why the VPE coach and not the CTO coach. And, to me, it was, well, actually, because CTO is one of these multi-dimensional variable scope word, which means a very different thing. And often, at a startup, the CTO is basically the founding engineer. He is the person writing the code, building the product. And that's good.
\n\nBut as you grow, then the role change, and many of my clients are technical co-founders who actually want to scale with the org and not become, like, a chief architect, even though many of them will still keep the CTO title. And then, they will hire a VPE to actually build the organization and do what the role of the CTO is from my perspective.
\n\nThe CTO role, if we define it, it's really you're part of the exec team, and the exec team whose responsibility is to align technology to the business objective. So, can we use technology or build a product to actually deliver our product objective? So, it's kind of a strategic role, and at some point, you don't necessarily run the day-to-day of the org. But at a transition point, you need to focus on the org management and the org building.
\n\nSo, I often say, one, my ideal clients are these technical co-founders who want to switch from a product builder identity to a product development organization builder identity. That's the transition point. And then, it requires all the leadership skills somebody who leads an org needs, which are, like, being able to...empathy being one of the most important one, you know, being able to understand people, to inspire them, everything like that [chuckles].
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. All the easy stuff, right [chuckles]?
\n\nFRANCIS: Yes [chuckles]. Yeah. It's called the soft skills [laughs], but we all know that it's not because they're easy [laughs].
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. Yeah, they're hard.
\n\nFRANCIS: It's actually more because they are nebulous, which is very hard for somebody who's technically minded, you know, people; it's not like there's an on and an off, and logic gate is not what this is about.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And, mentally, it must be challenging for someone who has poured their heart and soul, and time, and energy into this product to then turn around and say, "Okay, I'm going to let a bunch of other people get in there and start doing stuff [laughs].
\n\nFRANCIS: Yes.
\n\nVICTORIA: And take it over. And, like, I'll just be involved from..." like, you know, when you say executive position, what does that mean? Is it, like, budget and strategy? And, you know, sometimes it's really hard to be effective in those conversations, and it really becomes about educating other people in your organization more than anything else.
\n\nFRANCIS: Yeah, I mean, a lot of it is about budget and that sort of thing. To me, it's more like boring, and it's not the most critical part. I mean, your role as a leader is really to set the context for the people to execute them, you know, so that they have, like, the clarity of direction but not the control of the execution. You need to let go of control. You need to move much more on the influence side than the controlling side, especially the larger the org gets. You probably have managed folks. You need to lose the idea that you're in charge and you're making the decisions because otherwise, you get frustrated very fast.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. How would you refer to that? Is that like the inner game, like a mental game you have to shift into?
\n\nFRANCIS: Yeah, I mean, to me, the inner game is all about the self-awareness, emotional intelligence, developing these capacities, which enables you to be a more effective leader. It's not just about being an effective leader. It's also about feeling good about your role and who you are in this context, you know, and that's the inner game. What happens externally, how you act, is a reflection of these inner capacities in a way.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. And if you want to create a culture of psychological safety, you may want to start within yourself, right?
\n\nFRANCIS: Yes. I mean, psychological safety it's one of the essential dimension of team performance. There's the Aristotle study that was done at Google, which they analyzed Agile teams and, okay, what is the most important factor in team performance? And what they came out with is, oh, it's this thing called psychological safety.
\n\nPsychological safety as a name, as a concept was kind of coined by Amy C. Edmondson. I'm not fond of the term because I think it leads to some. I mean, it's a technical term, but because psychological safety and safety has a lot of, like, day-to-day meaning, it skews a little bit what it is. I much prefer...this is the same thing what Patrick Lencioni was calling out as the first dysfunction of a team, you know, the lack of trust. And it was defining trust as vulnerability-based trust, which goes with the technical definition of psychological safety, which is the perception that the team is safe for interpersonal risk-taking.
\n\nSo, it's kind of, A, here I'm not sure how this is going to go. This is risky a bit. I'm being vulnerable. But I perceive that the team...I trust that the team will receive that respectfully in a way. And that connection to the inner game is...as a manager, if you want to create psychological safety, you need to lead by example, which means you need to show that you can be vulnerable, you know, that you trust the team that they're not going to hang you to dry if you show a weakness or say, "Hey, I don't know here," or things like that. And this is very hard as leaders because we want to instill confidence and things like that. But that often comes with, like, masking our vulnerabilities, and that's actually detrimental in fostering psychological safety.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, we actually did a facilitated exercise on psychological safety at thoughtbot last year. And I brought up an idea I'd had where I wanted to see if I could say something obviously wrong on my team calls [laughter] and see if they would correct me. Like, are they going to correct me? Do they feel safe enough to, like, give me that correction? Like, you know. And I can say that my team does feel comfortable [laughs]. They crack me a lot [laughs].
\n\nFRANCIS: Awesome.
\n\nVICTORIA: But that's great. You hire people who hopefully have, you know, expertise and security that might be greater and deeper or more recent, and yours that you have to do that. So, that's really interesting.
\n\nTalking about all the reports, it reminds me as well as, like, the DevOps research, DORA report, where they say that security as well, like, the biggest indicator for a high-security organization is trust as well. So, it's really interesting to think about, like, how you as a CTO create that culture and create that culture of, like, trust, and compassion, and empathy, and vulnerability, and that will lead to performance, which may seem counterintuitive to some people.
\n\nFRANCIS: Yeah. So, I'm kind of a model collector. I'm someone who loves different models. They're all good, you know, and that's the problem [laughs]. All models are good, but none of them actually exhaust reality. In one model, in a way, it's kind of simplification of The Five Dysfunctions Model and others. But there's two dimensions that are really important for team performance. So, the first one is kind of the, to me, this is kind of the ground, the horizontal layer. It's kind of how people relate to each other, so psychological safety. And then the vertical dimension is the clarity of the North Star and the mission.
\n\nWe all can relate to each other as human beings and trust each other, but we're here to do some work. And what is this work about? What is unifying us that we're here and not someplace else? And that's kind of the clarity of what we're trying to achieve, the North Star or the mission. And those two create the space for high performance because if you just have psychological safety but there is no clear mission and accountability to that mission...once you know clearly what we're here to do, we can hold each other accountable to delivering on it. And if you're the only person holding accountability as the leader, then you're far from high performance.
\n\nReally, you get high performance when everyone is in it together. That's given by the clarity of what is it we're trying to achieve. And if that's not there, you have, like, a great group of people, but there's no direction. And if you have only direction and, you know, a mission, then you can get, like, in a very authoritarian thing, which, I mean, everybody's aligned to do something, but everybody is kind of afraid and not showing up fully. And you're not getting the full engagement of everyone, so there's a lot of heat and friction that's being lost.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And you mentioned accountability. And I'm curious, what does that look like in your experience, like, holding each other accountable? What kind of ways can leaders do that?
\n\nFRANCIS: To me, the most interesting question is how can leaders foster shared accountability on the team, mutual accountability? And how it looks like...and I'm a big fan of...it's kind of the virtuous cycle between team agreements and retrospective, you know, in agile, another word that can mean many things. But this idea of continuous improvement after every sprint or regularly the team gets together and reflects on what went well. What could we improve? Those sorts of things. This is kind of the collective space of where the teams exist as a team, you know, really kind of where there's something very important in the retrospective where we're showing up as a team and reflecting on the team.
\n\nAnd what I like to do is use that moment to not only, like, how do we reflect about the first layer of, okay, we missed that feature or that sort of thing but also reflect on the norms of the team, which can be written down ideally, you know? And this is a team agreement part. And the output of the retrospective is modification or experiment around "Oh, we could try this or this other way of working." But the idea of team agreements is this is how we are holding each other accountable, too.
\n\nAnd how it manifests in practice is you know you have, like, mutual accountability when it's not only the manager that is reminding people of, hey, this is our norm, you know? So, for instance, I don't know, example could be trivial, but still, you know, we said we need two reviews to commit code, and then, like, somebody didn't do it or something like that. The manager could go and say, "Hey, you forgot about this agreement."
\n\nBut really, where you want to be is that it's other people on the team say, "Hey, Joe, why didn't you ask me for a review here? You know, I could have been that second review you needed," or things like that. And that really means that everyone is kind of bought in on the norms. So, that, to me, what is mutual accountability about is when it feels confident enough to challenge each other and remind themselves accountable to the team norms.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And facilitating that development of the team norms together, too, right?
\n\nFRANCIS: Yes.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. Do you have any questions for me?
\n\nFRANCIS: So, I'm interested to hear about your story this time where you got called out [laughs]. You said okay...I love the test you did, you know. I'm going to say something here that I know is wrong and see if people feel confident enough to...so, how did you achieve that, you know?
\n\nVICTORIA: Lucky for me, I don't have to test it because it just happens naturally [laughs]. So, in my role of managing director, I have to talk to clients, come up with estimates for the work, when will the work start, who is the right person for the team. And so, sometimes, you know, I'll put the proposal together, and I'll hear my team members say like, "Why are we doing it like this [laughs]? Do it this way instead. Like, I think this person's a better fit."
\n\nAnd, you know, when I see them engaging in the proposal and not just saying, "Yeah, it looks good," that means that we're doing a good job, and they're actually reading it, and processing it, and thinking about the client's requirements and yeah, giving me real feedback. That's what I want, so that's what I like to see.
\n\nAnd, you know, when I do my one on ones with my team members, at least every three months, I try to do a retrospective style where I ask, "In my role, what should I continue doing that's helping you? What should I start doing, and then what should I stop?" I do it in that order specifically, so we start with the nice stuff [laughs].
\n\nBut yeah, and then I make sure that when I give that feedback back to my team members, I say like, "Make sure you feel like you can speak up and share and hear your voice. Like, it's maybe more of a start than a stop or a continue. Just try to, like, get your feedback in there. I want to hear from you. I want to make sure you feel comfortable giving feedback to me also."
\n\nFRANCIS: Right. So, that's kind of demonstrating listening and enacting a feedback culture because you are asking for feedback and listening to it, and that fosters trust, you know, vulnerability-based trust. So, anything else you did that helped create that psychological safety on your team?
\n\nVICTORIA: It's really important how you react to things in meetings, like in retrospectives, especially if, like, you're trying to...like, in my role a lot, I'm trying to represent the business and talk to my team about what's the strategy and what we're trying to do. Like, if someone asks you a question like, "Well, why are we doing it right that way? Like, I think that's, like, what [laughs], you know, like, what are you guys even thinking? That seems random."
\n\nI think the emotional work, like you mentioned, like, taking a breath myself and, like, calming down. Because, like, part of me could get really annoyed and be like, "Well, we've been talking about this for three months, guys [chuckles], you know, like, this isn't new information." But then, you know, thinking about it, like, you know, taking the time to calm your own emotions and put yourself in their shoes and think about, well, how much time have they really had to, like, look at any of this stuff? And, like, maybe they need it in a different format, or in a different way, or, like, written up somewhere else and not just, like, briefly covered in a call.
\n\nSo, opening yourself up to alternatives and staying curious about, well, what is this feeling behind? Like, what's really needed to clear? So, it's, again, coming back to listening and acting on it. So, maybe that's part of it. So, to create more psychological safety on the team is that part about managing your own emotions and not overreacting if somebody doesn't like your idea is a really important part of it.
\n\nFRANCIS: Yes, so true. You said something very interesting there, which is how you react to things. And this is true, you know, you want to be graceful in your reaction and not react from a place of frustration or anger. There's the saying that psychological safety is fragile, you know, trust can be lost easily and easy to lose. And I think this is actually, while there is some truth to it, it's actually just partially true. From my perspective, when you have psychological safety, basically, there's an anti-fragile aspect to it in the sense that you self-heal. But to self-heal, you need to recognize the breakage and heal.
\n\nSo, I see the occasions where we want to be reacting gracefully listening to feedback. And then, somebody asks a question, like, say, "Why are we doing this?" You know, and then, well, because [laughs] and you answer, "Yes, well, because we've been talking for three months about this, you know, get to the page." If you stop there, yes, this is detrimental. I mean, people will say, "Oh, this was weird, and I'll think twice next time before asking that question."
\n\nBut if you are committed to psychological safety, you realize that, or somebody might make you realize that. And then, you can repair saying, "Hey. Hey, sorry. I messed up here. This is really not in line with our value of listening to feedback. I'm sorry. I'm under..." and that's the healing part, and that actually strengthen psychological safety more than it was. I mean, this is the idea of antifragility, you know, a bone breaks, and when it rebuilds, it rebuilds stronger because you've shown vulnerability and kind of, okay, yes, when they make a mistake, I can see that they are able to correct in the moment.
\n\nAnd that's the safety part that I don't like, you know, the common day word meaning of safety that I feel is misleading is that it makes the thing...it seems very fragile. People walk on eggs. You know, we have this sentiment that, oh, I should be cautious about what I'm saying and things like that, where, actually, if you have a psychological safety culture, you can be a little bit more spontaneous and candid. And if you mess up, well, there's enough safety that you can repair and recover from there.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I actually, I mean, I did say that in the moment. And the way I recovered was that I said, "You know, I didn't want it to come across as an admonishment, like, why haven't you been listening? But more about back to our values, how can I make you all more bought into our goals from the beginning and make sure that you're connected and we're on the same page? Because it felt a little disconnected for me [laughs]," right?
\n\nBut yeah, no, I like that you put it that way. Like it's also about how you repair. And I think that's true as well. When I think about whether or not you're safe with someone, it's also like, are you safe enough to tell me when I made a mistake? And the way you're going to feel safe is if someone tells you that they make a mistake, they're going to apologize, and repair, and figure out how to do better next time.
\n\nFRANCIS: Yeah, totally.
\n\nVICTORIA: And then, I think about how much my, like, leadership learning fits into my, like, regular personal life [laughs] also, right? Yeah, that's wonderful. If you could go back in time to maybe when you were that engineer about to take your engineering management position, what advice would you give yourself if you could?
\n\nFRANCIS: Hey, you do realize this is a totally different path. You're going to need to develop different skills that you add to. That was fine, you know because I kind of navigated that very seamlessly in many ways. But what I didn't highlight is that there was a transition, actually. And I think this is where the advice would come in.
\n\nSo, I was an engineer, so thinking with systems and system thinking. And I realized very rapidly this is a different role. I'm not programming code anymore, you know. And what I told myself was I'm programming the system in which code is being written. And I think that's a good working metaphor or thinking for a while. And that's where the advice would come in. It's kind of, A, this is not, like, an engineering system. This is about humans.
\n\nSo, in a way, I would kind of nudge myself toward developing the soft skills much more rapidly because I think it took me a while to really grok that, hey, I need to understand how to relate individually and personally to people and not just to ideas, roles, and process. Because you can have, like, an engineering perspective on management but that's lacking in empathy and...mainly the empathy [laughs]. So, do pay attention to empathy. I think that would be the fifth advice [laughs].
\n\nVICTORIA: Isn't that great advice for all of us all the time, right [laughs]?
\n\nFRANCIS: Yes.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. Yeah, wonderful.
\n\nFRANCIS: I'm always happy to connect with people. You can find me on LinkedIn, Francis Lacoste. I think we don't talk to each other enough in these digital times. And so, we all network a lot, you know, on Slack and LinkedIn. And one day, I was connecting with someone on LinkedIn, and the guy offered me...said, "Hey, happy to connect. Are you interested in doing, like, a short call just to get acquainted?" And I said, "Oh, that's actually a good idea." I talked with the guy and decided to do the same thing myself. So, I'm always happy to have a conversation with folks. So, I invite you to try it out, you know, there's a lot of people out there, interesting people, and have interesting conversations.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that so much. That's really nice. And people can do that to me, too. You can always...people talk to me, come talk to me on my podcast [laughs]. Thank you so much for being with us here today, Francis. I really enjoyed our conversation.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on thoughtbotmastodonsocial@vguido.
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Host Victoria Guido discusses the therapeutic and community-building aspects of converting hobbies into mental health therapy with special guest Hamidah Nalwoga. Hamidah shares how attempting to learn hula hooping through expensive circus school lessons made her realize a need for a more accessible form of skill sharing. Meet Hobi—a platform where people can learn various skills not as a means of professionalization but for personal therapy and community building.
\n\nHamidah explains the challenges and insights from starting Hobi, particularly the hurdles of managing a two-sided marketplace and the importance of community support in the mental health space. While aiming to foster both skill development and mental well-being by providing affordable and engaging group sessions in arts, dance, and writing therapy, the platform also offers these sessions at minimal costs.
\n\nHamidah and Victoria also talk about the broader impacts of community-focused initiatives on mental health. With an increasing number of people facing mental health issues and lacking adequate support, platforms like Hobi are envisioned as a bridge to accessible mental health care. Sharing the value of creative expression in mental wellness, Hamidah advocates for a shift towards more community-centric and engaging therapeutic practices and highlights the potential for using innovative tech solutions to address the mental health crisis.
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Hamidah Nalwoga, Founder of Hobi, showing you how to turn your hobbies into a form of therapy. Hamidah, thank you for joining me.
\n\nHAMIDAH: Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you so much for having me.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, great. Well, why don't you tell me something that's going on in your world outside of work, just to intro yourself? What are your interests outside of your startup and your job?
\n\nHAMIDAH: Yeah, my interests outside of, like, work and business, I would say the biggest one is digital art. I used to be really, really into it, but then I took a break, but now I'm finding it again. So yeah, I've been doing that a lot recently. Also, I'm trying to get into, like, audible books.
\n\nVICTORIA: Ooh.
\n\nHAMIDAH: I tried reading, but I can't stand it. So, I'm back to audible books [laughs].
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, nice. Audible books, and you said digital art?
\n\nHAMIDAH: Yeah, digital art.
\n\nVICTORIA: What kind of digital art do you bank?
\n\nHAMIDAH: I'm using Krita. It's a software. I use, like, a Wacom tablet and draw stuff like flowers, sunsets, stuff like that.
\n\nVICTORIA: That sounds really nice. I love that. I've got a little art project myself coming up on Wednesday this week.
\n\nHAMIDAH: Aw, that's nice.
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm a big sister of, you know, Big Sister Little Sister. And so, me and my little sister are going to do these, like, oil paint by number kits. So, it's like a mentorship program in San Diego. So, it's a lot of fun for me and for my little, so yeah, I'm excited about that.
\n\nAnd I love your idea of your company. So, you know, a lot of people when you tell them you have a hobby, sometimes they think about, oh, you should monetize it, and you should, like, make money off of it. But I like that your take is, oh, you should make therapy out of it. You should get emotional well-being out of your hobby. So, tell me a little bit more about, like, what led you to that idea?
\n\nHAMIDAH: Originally, I wanted to learn how to hula hoop. I saw this music video, you know, and this person was, like, looking super cool, doing all these tricks, you know, like, it looked amazing to me. So, I was like, you know what? I want to be able to do that. So, that's how my journey started. I tried the YouTube videos, but it wasn't really helping me as much. I'm more of a person who learns in person, like, someone shows me what I'm doing wrong exactly. So, that's why I tried to find an in-person teacher. But I found a circus school that was charging $80 per lesson, which is just about an hour. That was, like, too expensive for me.
\n\nVICTORIA: Eight dollars for a hula hoop lesson?
\n\nHAMIDAH: Yeah.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow.
\n\nHAMIDAH: Because they were charging, like, the rate of the circus school. Like, if you want to have any aerial lessons, hula hoop, it would all go into one thing, so it's like $80 an hour. That's why I was like, you know what? I know somebody in Boston who knows how to hula hoop enough that they could teach me how to do it. They may not be a professional hula hooper, but they can at least show me the basics. So, that's where the idea came from of trying to learn skills from your neighbor that isn't really a professional at it.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, it all circles back to hula hooping.
\n\nHAMIDAH: Exactly. Yeah.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, that's awesome. It makes so much sense, right? Like, yeah, you don't necessarily need a professional circus performer to teach you how to hula hoop. There's someone who'd be willing to do it. So, yeah, so you went from that idea, and what was kind of your first step where you knew, oh, maybe I could make something out of this? How did you get there?
\n\nHAMIDAH: Yeah, and I was looking around, and I couldn't find, like, a good solution to, like, this whole skill-sharing thing. The best thing I found was Skillshare, and it was, like, an online platform where you could learn, like, animation, you know, Photoshop, that type of stuff, but it didn't really cater to, like, the softcore skills, like skating, that type of stuff. So, I was like, you know what? I'm going to do this, you know, like, be like an Uber, but for skills.
\n\nYeah, and doing that was extremely difficult, like, resource-wise. And, like, in general, it was a very hard task to tackle. And when I went to startup forums, like, groups, they would tell me that, "You have to be specific. Like, this is not going to work because you have to worry about, like, the two-sided marketplace, you know? And if you add, like, different locations in that, it's going to be very, very difficult."
\n\nSo yeah, I tried doing that for about a year, and I was seeing some growth doing, like, a few skills, mainly like art, cooking. But after a while, I started getting burnt out, mainly because I didn't really have a huge passion for that. By trade, I'm a mental health nurse. I've been one for the past five years. So, I took a break for about a month, and I was thinking, okay, what do I enjoy doing? And if it was to fail, what would I not regret spending a lot of my hours doing? And that was mental health. So, that's where the idea came to me: to make your hobbies a form of therapy.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And I'm curious what else about your background helped kind of inform your ideas around the therapy side of it.
\n\nHAMIDAH: I guess this kind of goes into my background. As a nurse, I worked in this emergency room and then also inpatient psych. And I was seeing a lot of patients that come back again and again. They lack a couple of things in their environment outside of, like, a psych unit, for example. On the psych unit, they have a structure. Like, you go to group art therapy, then you talk about your feelings. You have support there around you, you know.
\n\nAnd then once they get discharged and back into the community, most people don't have this thing. That's probably why they're in the hospital in the first place, you know. And so, I was thinking, like, what if someone can have this type of structure on the outside without having to be in the hospital? I mean, some people do, but you have to have insurance, you know, it costs a lot of money.
\n\nSo, that's where Hobi was trying to come in to be a structure, you know, like a fun thing that's not just okay...and I'm not putting down psychotherapy at all, but sometimes people don't want to talk about their feelings all the time. You know, sometimes people want to do something fun, like, while also, like, having a mental health professional around to, like, guide them.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I totally get that. Like, I had been doing some of the talk therapy, like, apps, you know, like, BetterHelp and things like that. And it was fine, but then I kind of switched to just doing the tarot deck app instead because it's more fun, and it's less, like, just deep thinking about your feelings. It's kind of, like, expressive. And I think the interesting part about your journey here and, like, what I've heard as a repeating theme so far this year on the podcast is that, like, the real answer to a lot of problems is community and having those connections between people.
\n\nHAMIDAH: Yes.
\n\nVICTORIA: And, like, I love that you're working on how can tech solve that, and how can you make it affordable for people to build those communities and have access to those support networks and structure? Let me recap a little bit. So, you wanted to learn how to hula hoop, and then you wanted to find someone to teach you, and then you wanted to build an app to get that skill sharing going, but you thought you maybe wanted to make it a little more specific. So, you wanted to kind of bring it in as, like, hobbies as therapy, and that's where you are today, right?
\n\nHAMIDAH: Yes. It was a long journey. When you say it, it sounds like it's been a couple of months, you know, but it's actually been [laughs]...it's a span of years [laughs].
\n\nVICTORIA: So, how would you describe where you're at now in your customer discovery journey and finding your product-market fit?
\n\nHAMIDAH: Yeah, right now, I would say I have found my customer, but I am in a place where I'm making income from Hobi. It's not enough to, like, be profit. Obviously, I'm still starting out because this...I pivoted about eight months ago to go to, like, the hobbies as a form of therapy niche. And I have found some customers. I have some repeating customers, people who actually enjoy this that, like, you know, "This is actually amazing. This has helped me a lot with my life," yeah. And the way I find these people is by providing community.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, you found users through your existing community connections and through the group that you're running. Is that right?
\n\nHAMIDAH: Yeah.
\n\nVICTORIA: And so, you kind of found that, like, the traditional marketing models where you put out an ad and people click through, like, it wasn't a good enough management of expectations from, like, end to end. So, like, kind of going to the groups first and forming the connection and then being like, "We can use Hobi to facilitate this connection," worked more for you.
\n\nHAMIDAH: Yes. And also, the other thing, too, that worked for me...because, like, the issue with Hobi it's a two-sided marketplace. So, I have to worry about, like, the therapists that are going to be offering these sessions, as well as the people who are going to be paying to have the sessions. So, it was very tricky to try and balance those two sides, but I did find a medium.
\n\nLike, the key, if I was to take away from this, if I was to tell anybody the main thing to focus on, is to build, like, a strong relationship with...it doesn't have to be a lot of people. Start with one person and just make sure that you give them what they need, you know, like, they feel like this is something that's worth it to them. And then, from there, trying to replicate that if you can to a second person, and then a third person, like, something like that because you have to personalize it as much as you can.
\n\nVICTORIA: And what were some of the unique needs of therapy providers and people who would be participating in these community groups that was surprising to you when you started this process?
\n\nHAMIDAH: Was it surprising to me? I don't know if it was really surprising. When I started, I was trying to find, like, whoever needed the app the most, you know, in terms of both mentors and the student side. And I found, like, there's a lot of people out there that are trying to make money teaching what they know. I found a lot of art therapists that wanted to join Hobi, and it wasn't very difficult to do.
\n\nBut I guess the tricky part or, like, the surprise that I found was not just finding someone who wants to make the money but is willing to take a loss a little bit for you or, like, for that cause. I don't know if that at all answers the question. Because I was finding people that were like, "Yes, I want to make money teaching, like, art therapy to a group of people." But then when they had a class, for example, and nobody showed up, it was, like, a huge blow to them. They're like, "No, I don't want to do this." And that was when I just started with this niche.
\n\nBut then I was lucky enough to find a couple of art therapists that were willing to give it time and actually volunteer their time, like, one hour a month and just give, like, a free session or, yeah, stuff like that. And then, I noticed that over the months, now that mentor...well, like, those that I'm working with are actually now getting a profit.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's interesting, right? Because you're providing a platform. It's not a guarantee that people are going to make money right away. And you have to have a similar kind of community mindset that you're going to need to put in the time and start showing up regularly, and not everyone's going to be a good fit for that. So, that's really interesting. Yeah, I really like that. Tell us a little bit more about it. What kind of things can you get into on the app or on the website?
\n\nHAMIDAH: We offer art therapy, dance therapy, and writing therapy, or journaling, and then some cooking classes. So, those are, like, the main things I can get into. And then, for people who are new to this type of, you know, like, therapy, mental wellness, we do have a category called mental wellness skills. They can join there and learn, like, basic coping skills, emotional regulation, and stuff like that.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. I saw all those services, and I was like, oh, this sounds really nice [laughter]. Like, maybe I should sign up. But how do people access the app? Because I know you're trying to balance making that profit and also providing services to people who can't afford it. So, how did you strike that balance?
\n\nHAMIDAH: Yeah, I'll be super honest. I am still trying to get that balance, but, again, like I said, it depends on finding someone whose priorities fit your priorities. Like for example, I'm not going to go to an art therapist who has, like, ten years of experience used to, like, charging $200 a session and ask them, "Hey, could you join Hobi and take this huge pay cut for me [laughs]?" Like, that's not going to work out.
\n\nThe balance I found through getting the right person to work with me, because, to this person, they actually see a lot of potential, and they actually are making more than they would have without Hobi. And to the user coming to the platform, they're getting someone who is very enthusiastic about what they're doing. And it's actually helping them out a lot at a fraction of the cost of what they would get elsewhere.
\n\nVICTORIA: Gotcha. Yeah. And I saw you had some different pricing points, too. You could pay just, like, per session that you wanted and join for free, or you could get, like, a regular amount of sessions per month, and things like that. Both sides of the marketplace. I love that.
\n\nOoh. So, tell me more about, like, what's the impact that you're seeing? Now that you've gotten some traction and you're starting to see people really use it, tell me more about those stories where people are saying, "You know, it makes my life so much better."
\n\nHAMIDAH: I didn't really start seeing the impact, again, like, until a couple of months started rolling by because it would take some time, again, to get used to something. First, they go check it out. You know, they're like, "Oh, actually, this is kind of nice, you know." Then they go back again. They're like, "Oh, actually, maybe it's actually really good for me." Then, as they start using it over and over again, they start seeing the value of it, and that's what happened.
\n\nSo, a lot of the good reviews that I was getting are from users who have been using it for, like, three months now. And they like it a lot, again, because of the two main reasons. The instructors are usually very enthusiastic and are wanting to help them, and they can feel that. The other thing is, like, they get a community because it is mostly, like, group sessions.
\n\nSo, people have an option to do one-on-one sessions if they want with the instructors. But, usually, it's just group sessions, and the cost is the same, $5 for all the sessions. So, it's, like, very, very affordable. And people keep coming back. "I'm only paying $5. I get a group that I talk to, make some friends. I have a therapist that I can talk to, you know." It combines and adds up over a couple of months of doing it.
\n\nVICTORIA: I can imagine that'd be really stabilizing for a lot of people, especially for people who maybe aren't able or can't afford to travel in person to these types of sessions.
\n\nHAMIDAH: Yeah, I think it's stabilizing, and that's what I was keeping in mind when I was making the platform and talking with the mentors. I try to ask them to create, like, a structure to their sessions, not just, like, random, like, days, you know?
\n\nSo, like, it's usually the same day every week, you know, and the same time every week. So, you know, like, okay, every Monday, I have a support group that I go to to, like, do art journaling, and then talk about how I feel, you know, like, check-in with people, they check in with me, stuff like that.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really wonderful. And so, that's an incredible thing to be working on. So, how do you think about what success looks like for you this year or five years from now?
\n\nHAMIDAH: Yeah. What does success look like? What success would look like, for me, I would say, since this is, like, a self-funded platform and right now I am bootstrapping and I'm kind of in the negative...although I have been steadily, you know, like, the app is growing. I'm very happy for that. I'm getting more users coming back over and over again. I'm getting good reviews. I'm getting new mentors joining, so it is heading in the right trajectory, but it's, like, a slow but steady growth. And I want to keep it that way because we run into some blunders sometimes. And I can't imagine having a whole bunch of people in the app and then having a blunder, you know, and how I would deal with that. But anyway, I digress.
\n\nWhat success would look like, for me, is if I am in a profit margin, so, like, not being in the negatives but in the green. You know, I don't have to have, like, a lot of money, but as long as I'm not working in the negatives, that would be success for me. And in terms of the platform in general, success would look like, again, like steady growth, just keep going up, keep going up, and, hopefully, have less blunders along the way.
\n\nLike, for example, I mean, I'm sure many founders have dealt with this, especially in tech. Like, you build this platform, you know, things were going smooth, then boom, the website crashes, you know. And it's like, people get pissed off, and it's like, "What's happening?" you know. And it's a lot of stress to deal with sometimes. But in that aspect, too, success would look like having less of that happen and having more of the good stuff happen.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. So, steady profits, steady performance of the application. Those are two great goals. I love it. How did you approach building the tech side of the company? And was there things from your own background that you found were helpful, or did you find people to help you with parts of it? Or how'd you do it?
\n\nHAMIDAH: That was a very huge huddle for me because my background, again, is in nursing. I don't have any friends who are in tech. I went to a pharmacy college school, like a healthcare university, so they did not have any, like, developing computer science programs. When I had this idea, I was like, how the heck am I going to do this? Because I don't have any connections. You know, I didn't even have a LinkedIn. Yeah, so it was a lot of, like, searching online.
\n\nI did get scammed twice trying to do this, but I was thankful that because of my job, I'm able to have a steady income. I was able to, like, eat up those losses and learn from my mistakes. And I found a development company that I worked with, and I've been working with for a while now, and they're very good. So, they have been helping me. Like, price-wise, they're great, and product-wise, they're also great.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, it can be really hard to navigate when you don't have experience or any connections to the community. But I appreciate you sharing that because I think it's a really common story that happens to people, and not a lot of people talk about it.
\n\nHAMIDAH: Yeah. The other thing, too, that I should warn any new founders out there or people in the community as well, watch out for who you work with, you know, like, really, really do your due diligence because I learned the hard way twice. It was different times, and it was different ways that I got scammed, not the same way, but yeah, people will approach you, and they'll give you a great price point. And if you're, like, really desperate, you know, and you really don't have the money and want to see, like, the results right away, you might get sucked into it, but just always do your due diligence and try to find other options.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And, you know, talk to companies like thoughtbot who won't scam you [laughter]. But yeah, no, I'm sorry to hear. And there's, you know, don't feel bad. Also, like, those companies that do that, that's what they do, and they're really good at it, and it could happen to anybody. And same with, like, mental health, and, you know, wanting more connections and struggling with it, it sounds like you could use Hobi to find connection now and find people to help you get through that. So, I really think that's important.
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\n\nVICTORIA: [inaudible 19:28] think about, what core values drive your everyday decisions?
\n\nHAMIDAH: Do things leaner. You know, like, I saw this lecture, like, The Lean Startup. Start as lean as possible and get the fundamental idea running without having to put a lot of money into it. And then, for my core values, I would say, like, integrity, doing what makes me happy, so it doesn't feel like I'm pushing, like, a heavy rock, just doing what feels like...something that just flows.
\n\nVICTORIA: I like that. Yeah, I think The Lean Startup is really smart. And it is funny when people ask me about app ideas. Like it's so tempting to just want to go build something and just see if people like it. But the answer is always, like, "Well, go talk to people first [laughs] before you, like, spend a lot of time building something," which is a lot harder and scarier to do. And that is why I really appreciate you sharing that.
\n\nAnd then, I liked your values: integrity, and, like, a self-fulfillment, self-actualizing feeling, not just, like, being repetitive loops. But yeah, no, that's really nice. And then, what are the biggest challenges in your horizon that you see?
\n\nHAMIDAH: The blunders that I talked about earlier, whereby something that you didn't expect to happen happens, and something that's usually bad that you didn't expect to happen happens. That's one of the biggest challenges that I'm trying to face. Yeah, I guess, like, how do you plan for the unexpected, you know? And how do you, like, do, like, a backup plan? In case something fails, how do you handle it, you know? Stuff like that.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, now you're getting into, like, resilience engineering. I love it. Yeah, you're working with your development partner. Have you all talked about service-level objectives or any kind of, like, application monitoring, or anything like that?
\n\nHAMIDAH: Yeah, we have, yeah. And when I do say blunders, I don't mean, like, the app is crashing every, like, day. It's in terms of...like, one example was what happened. We use this video calling software, and it's not with Hobi. It's through a different third-party video calling software. And we just added their API into our website. And one of the mentors was giving a session one day, and the camera just stopped working, and it happened, like, twice. And it's like, how do you deal with that? Because it's not even, like, the app itself. So, it's not my developers that are causing the issue. It's the third party that we worked with that's causing the issue, you know.
\n\nAnd it's like, so I had to go and find a different third-party person to work with and hope that that doesn't happen with them. Yeah, it's just, like, stuff like that. How do you predict the unpredictable? You know, like, I guess sitting down and thinking about all the bad possible things that could happen, I don't know [chuckles].
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Like, there's a balance between there are some things you could put a lot of structure and process around, and then, like, is that necessary? Like, is that the highest priority use of your time right now? Because yeah, lots of things can go wrong: APIs can break, you know, people push updates; DDoS attacks are happening more and more, ransomware attacks. There's all kinds of things that can happen that, yeah, it's pretty tough.
\n\nBut I think what you've done, where you've built a really strong relationship with your service providers and with your users, will help you in the long run because everyone has issues like that. Like, no app is perfect. So, if you're providing a really good service and the majority of the time it's working, then [laughs], like, you're probably fine. It's like, when do you make that choice between, like, really investing in, like, the application monitoring piece and things like what you're kind of talking? Like, it might be a major architectural change in the app that you would have to, like, invest in.
\n\nSo, that's something that I think about a lot is, like, how are leaders making these decisions? And, like, do you have someone to go to to, like, bounce ideas off of? I'm sure you have mentors in the startup community in Boston that you can, like, go to for advice on those things now. And I actually know that you know Jordyn through the Boston startup network area. How has that community been for you?
\n\nHAMIDAH: Oh, it's been good. It was a great community. I was there in the accelerator, Prepare 4 VC. I was there from July till September, and I learned a lot from them. They left their arms open. They're like, "If you ever need to come back, you can always come back. Like, we're always here; just reach out. We can always have a meeting anytime you need one." So, it's been very great. And I really, really appreciate being a part of it.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's awesome. What's the wind in your sails? What keeps you going?
\n\nHAMIDAH: I don't know if I talked about this, but I remember, like, where I faced a crash at some point where I was like, this is not working [chuckles]. Because I was like, I don't know if I can do this, you know. And that's when I sat with myself, and I was like, what do you see yourself doing forever, whereby you don't care if it pans out or not? It was this, the mental health aspect.
\n\nAnd I'm an artist. I like art, you know, I like creative expression. I like dancing, you know, like, with a hula hoop, like we talked about earlier. You know, I like that type of stuff. So, I was like, okay, how do I mix the two together? And this is where this came about making your hobbies therapy. And also, like, community, like, community building. It really all came together. And just knowing that I am building that slowly but steadily, that's what keeps me going.
\n\nVICTORIA: I really love that. That's really amazing. And did we talk enough about mental health on the episode? I know we wanted to really get into it a little bit about there's a mental health crisis in the United States right now, and I'm sure in other countries as well across the board. So, maybe you wanted to say a little bit more about that and how art could be a part of it.
\n\nHAMIDAH: Oh yeah, I saw this study that 1 in 5 Americans suffers from mental illness. Half of the people that have mental illness don't actually get treated, and it's for a lot of factors. And, you know, it's expensive if you don't have insurance, especially. There's no access, lack of education around it. So, it's a lot of reasons. That's where Hobi comes in, like, you know, like, it's trying to help a little bit where it can. So, in terms of, like, the financial aspect, sessions are $5. And in terms of accessibility, if you have Wi-Fi and you have a phone, you know, you can access it. And I know, like, not everybody has that, but, like, we're trying to help in that aspect.
\n\nIn terms of community, there's groups, support groups on Hobi based on interests. So, if you like art, you can find an art group. And I'm not going to lie; they're not huge groups, you know? I mean, it's a new concept. It's eight months since the pivot, so it's growing. But there is people in the groups, and people chat sometimes. I remember, like, somebody had posted, like, a cry for help, and somebody else actually replied them. They were actually talking together and then helping each other out. And it made me be like, okay, you know what? I should keep going with this. Like, this is why you're doing this.
\n\nThe aspect in art and mental health is it brings what is in your head on the outside, and that helps take the emotional weight off of you. The best way to explain this, for example, is with journaling. You have all these mini-thoughts going up in your head, you know, like your anxieties, your fears, all these things going on that you internalize, like, you know, you just keep pushing in the back of your head, and then you think about it all day.
\n\nBut if you take the time, for example, you sit down, and you write out how you're feeling, you know, with purpose, you know, like a gratitude journal, you, like, paint what you're feeling, like, express what you're feeling, and if you do this enough, you start to see a pattern. You stop internalizing all these things, and they become an actual thing that you can look at and analyze. So, like, that's the whole point of art and mental health. Like, it helps you bring it out of your head and onto, like, a piece of paper.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great, yeah. I think I took a psychology 101 class in college, and she's like, "If you're having circular thoughts, just, like, put them on paper, and then go to bed [laughs]." But yeah, I think that's a really beautiful way to put it. So, thank you for sharing that. Is there anything else you'd like to promote?
\n\nHAMIDAH: I'm here to talk about Hobi, and so that's what I would like to promote. You can go check out the app. We have a website and an app now. Because I'm a mental health person, you know, don't forget to take care of yourself, and don't forget to be kind to yourself. And it doesn't have to be through Hobi, but try to use art as a form of mental wellness.
\n\nMy task to you, listener, is, try journaling, for example. Try [inaudible 27:46] your feelings. Try dancing out that stress and see if you feel a difference after.
\n\nVICTORIA: What a wonderful way to end the episode. Thank you so much for coming on and telling us your story and talking about Hobi.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm.
\n\nAnd you can find me on thoughtbot.social@vguido.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.
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Hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido chat with Sanghmitra Bhardwaj, CEO and Founder of Insusty. Sanghmitra shares her journey from a small village in the foothills of the Himalayas to becoming a founder in France, driven by firsthand experiences with climate disasters and a passion for sustainable living. Insusty, a sustainability loyalty program, is a platform incentivizing individuals to adopt climate-positive actions through rewards, thereby fostering a community motivated towards environmental stewardship.
\n\nThe show digs into the mechanics and vision of Insusty, highlighting how the platform rewards eco-friendly actions like volunteering and donating, rather than purchases. This approach aims to bridge the gap between the desire for sustainable living and the practical challenges individuals face, such as the perceived high costs of sustainable products. Sanghmitra reveals the evolution of Insusty, including strategic pivots towards niche markets within the circular economy and the importance of transparency and impact measurement in building trust with consumers.
\n\nTowards the episode's conclusion, the conversation shifts to broader implications of sustainability in technology and business. Sanghmitra expresses curiosity about future expansions of Insusty, particularly in tracking and rewarding individual daily eco-actions more effectively. She also touches upon the challenges and triumphs of being a solo female founder in the tech and sustainability sectors, underscoring the significance of community, perseverance, and innovation in driving change.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. With me today is Sanghmitra Bhardwaj, CEO and Founder of Insusty, a sustainability loyalty program for individuals. Sanghmitra, thank you for joining us.
\n\nSANGHMITRA: Thank you so much for having me here. I'm super excited for the podcast and to discuss various topics that we are about to. And I'm sure that it's going to be a learning experience, not just for the audience, but also for me. So, thank you for this opportunity.
\n\nVICTORIA: Why don't we just start off getting to know you a little bit? Tell us something exciting going on in your life, maybe outside of work.
\n\nSANGHMITRA: Okay, so, well, recently, I joined a pole dancing class. I wanted to challenge myself and see if I have the core strength that I need to be strong. And I also feel that it's something that I always wanted to do to come out of my comfort zone. So, it's been fun so far.
\n\nVICTORIA: I tried that, and I thought that I would naturally be good at it because I'm a rock climber. And so, I thought I'd have all the right muscle groups, but the coordination and [laughs], like, expression of it is still challenging if you've never done it before.
\n\nSANGHMITRA: Yeah, definitely. And I think there are some techniques and if you don't do it right, like, you will not get it at all, those poses and, like, how you climb the pole and everything. So, I completely relate to your experience here.
\n\nVICTORIA: I want to do more dance, actually, because the mind-body connection and getting into that feeling of flow is really interesting for me. And I think it's like expressing through your body, which 80% of communication is non-verbal, which is really interesting.
\n\nSANGHMITRA: Yeah, that's true. Just to add to it, I wanted to also share with you that I used to do modeling back in India, and I really love expressing myself with my body. And it's been super interesting to see that. And also, when I have conversations with other people, these are the things that I observe a lot. Is it the same for you? Do you also observe other people's body language when they are talking to you and probably change some topics that you are trying to discuss?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, absolutely. You can tell if people are listening to what you're saying. They, like, lean in a little bit, or if they're not really wanting to relate to what you're saying, they're, like, crossing their arms in front of you. So, as someone who works in business development, I definitely pay a lot of attention [laughs] to all that stuff. But I'm curious, how did you go from being a model in India to founder and CEO where you are today?
\n\nSANGHMITRA: That's something that I would love to talk about, and also, it has to do from where I come from. So, I come from a very small village in the foothills of the Himalayas. There, I witnessed climate disasters firsthand. In 2013, there were a lot of cloudbursts happening in those areas. An entire village next to my village disappeared completely without a trace. And those were some moments in my life where I really felt like we live in a world where you can be far from Europe...for example, currently, I live in France, and here, when heat wave happens, we all suffer and people talk about it. But I have seen, like, the adverse effect of what it can lead to.
\n\nSo, there was a part of me that always wanted to do something in terms of the impact that I create, like, with my work. So, I started doing modeling, which was something for myself as well to gain some confidence. At the same time, I worked with sustainable brands in India. I modeled for them, and then I discovered their work. I got inspired by it, and I realized that it's something that interests me a lot, and I wanted to pursue my studies in it to know more about it. So, that's when I came to France to pursue my master's in sustainable finance to discover more about this field and to see where I belong.
\n\nAnd finally, I founded Insusty, where I could see that I could bring my inspiration from the sustainable brands that I worked with. Whether it's from the fashion or, the food industry, or the travel industry, I could see the inspiration coming from there. At the same time, I could see how we need to create mass adoption through incentivizing climate action, which was something that I explored during my studies. And I kind of went with Insusty, and that was the beginning of my founder journey.
\n\nWILL: I have a question about the way you grew up, and you're saying in a village. Can you expound a little bit on that? Because you said, climate change wiped out an entire village. And so, when I saw that in the email, I was like, I don't think I've ever had a chance to actually talk to someone that lived in a village. I grew up in the United States. So, like, help paint that picture. When you say you grew up in a village, what do you mean by that? What was it like growing up in a village, and also, what do you mean by the next village got entirely wiped out?
\n\nSANGHMITRA: Yeah. Living in a village it's like being a part of a tiny, well-knitted community, and it's, like, everyone knows everyone. And sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad because when people gossip, of course, it spreads like a wildfire. As well as when you need support and when you need help, this community is always there, too. So, the part of belonging to such a community and to kind of engage with people is something that I really enjoy about coming from a small village. And that's something that I oftentimes search in France, where I can be a part of such communities as well, where people inspire each other.
\n\nFor example, currently, I'm a part of a wonderful community of women of color founders living in Europe. It's called Founderland. And it's thanks to Founderland that I found you then I could join this podcast. So, when it comes to the small village, this is what I really really love about it is the small knitted community we have.
\n\nWhen I say that the entire village next to my village disappeared, I mean that when there was the cloudburst in the mountain, the soil and everything drowned the entire village. So, there was a school, and we used to hear a story about the school, where the kids were told by the teachers to run because there is a cloudburst, and "We are about to die if we stay in this place."
\n\nAnd as a student, as a kid, what do you think first? You think about packing your bags instead of running. So, the kids ended up packing their bags before they could run, and by that time, it was too late. So, this is just one of the heartbreaking stories that I'm sharing with you right now, but it had been something that really left a mark in my life.
\n\nVICTORIA: I really appreciate you sharing that story because when I talk to people about climate change, I think it's really easy to get this nihilistic attitude about, well, climate change is going to kill us all in 20 years. So, why bother doing anything about it? And what I usually answer back is that climate change is already killing people.
\n\nAnd then, it's happening in your own neighborhood, even, like, you know, I live here in San Diego, and it's always between, like, 60 and 80 degrees every single day [chuckles], but our beaches are collapsing. There are neighborhoods that are more impacted by pollution than others and are experiencing environmental impacts from that and their health, and everything like that. So, I'm curious how it all comes together with what you're doing with Insusty and how you're inspiring people to take action towards sustainability in the here and now.
\n\nSANGHMITRA: Actually, I have a question for you and Will. I wanted to understand, for example, if you purchase something in terms of, for example, it's related to fashion, or it's related to food products, what is the criteria that's most important to you? And maybe probably you can tell me, like, the top three criteria that are most important for you when you buy something. And then, I would love to share how Insusty can help you buy better.
\n\nVICTORIA: When I'm looking to buy things, I look for, like, price. I want it to be reasonable, but I also don't want it to be so cheap that it means it's a really poor quality. So, I want to find that balance between, like, quality and price. And I do also care about sustainability, and, like, what is the background of the company that I'm buying it from? You know, what's their reputation? What's their, like, practices?
\n\nLike one example is, like, the rugs for your house. So, I like to buy rugs that are made from sustainable fabrics and dyes and that I can wash them because I have a dog. And so, that's kind of, like, what I think through when I buy things. But it's not always easy, especially with clothing, because it seems like anyone who makes clothing, there's just always this risk of it being sourced at some part in the manufacturing pipeline having to do with either child labor or really terrible sustainability practices.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. I would say, for me, early on, especially when I was growing up, we didn't have a lot of money, so it was just whatever is the cheapest, whatever we could afford at that moment. It wasn't really looking into the quality, or sustainability, or any of those items. Some of the stuff I look back on that I ate often, I'm like, whoa, man, that was not the best thing. But it was the cheapest, and it was what we ate and things like that.
\n\nSo, now that I'm older, my wife has been talking to me about some of that stuff, and it's like, oh, I had no idea, because of the environment I grew up in, that, like, that's even affecting me. And that was kind of why I asked you about the village thing is because I feel like we can get in a bubble sometimes and not even be aware of what's happening to other people.
\n\nAnd I think, Victoria, you said something about people not understanding climate change. It's kind of tough at times to talk about climate change when you live in...where I'm at in Florida, it's like, okay, it gets hot, and then it gets cold. And yeah, we have a hurricane every now and then, but whenever you told the story about the village, it's like, oh, wow, like, that's a different game. That's a different level. I didn't even know about that.
\n\nSo, I think that's kind of my journey now is I am starting to understand sustainability. I think a lot of times I still have that I grew up with nothing mindset and want to get the cheapest thing because sometimes buying sustainability is super expensive. So, that's why I'm glad that I'm talking to you, so maybe I can learn some of those things. So yeah, that's kind of been my journey with it.
\n\nSANGHMITRA: That's really wonderful to get your insights because now I can tell you confidently what we do. Basically, when I talk to people, it was generally the same thing that I asked them, "What's the most important thing when you buy, like, the top three most important things?" Sustainability was definitely one of them, but cost was always there. Regardless of the background that they are from, cost was something that they all thought about.
\n\nSo, what we do at Insusty is that we incentivize individuals to do something good for the planet. It can be, for example, you want to volunteer at an NGO next to your place. You want to get rewarded. So, what we do is we offer you loyalty points that help you to buy from sustainable brands. So, you try these products because, oftentimes, as Will also mentioned, there is a perception, and it's also a reality, that sustainable products tend to be more expensive. So, we try to deal with that by offering a loyalty program that incentivizes climate action.
\n\nAnd in terms of the sustainable brands, they get new customer base. They get to interact with these customers. They get to see their product and sites. What is something that the customers really like? What is something that can be improved? How can they improve in terms of their own sustainability and their impact? For example, their supply chain operations and so on. So, it's something that we provide them and help them also with insights as well as new customer base. We try to support them with that.
\n\nAt the same time, on an individual level, we help with the cost factor, which is one of the most important things. When we want people to change, when we want people to adopt sustainable lifestyle, we kind of need to incentivize that so that mass adoption can be possible.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, I'm imagining, like, I want to know a new brand that I want to buy clothes from, like essential clothes. I could go into the app and, like, find companies that produce the thing that I want, and then I could get points and rewards for buying consistently from that brand.
\n\nSANGHMITRA: So, we are not like an actual loyalty program. So, you only receive points when you do something good for the planet. You don't receive points when you purchase from brands. This is a loyalty program where we give you points when you do something good for the planet, for example, donations. For NGOs, we have volunteer programs that individuals can participate in and receive loyalty points. But in the future, we are ambitious, and we want to go far. And we think that each and every activity of an individual can be tracked in terms of sustainability, how they are segregating their waste at home, how they're managing that, and so on, and give them points for each of their eco actions.
\n\nVICTORIA: Awesome. Yeah. Okay. I love that. Yeah. So, what kind of things would earn me points, like, in my home ownership here?
\n\nSANGHMITRA: If you volunteer with an NGO nearby or if you would like to participate in an event, for example, if you want to donate clothes, all these eco actions can give you loyalty points for the moment. And in the future, we want to also track the actions that you do at home. You save electricity, for example. You want to walk to the office instead of taking a cab, and all these activities, so that we can kind of make the experience also for the user a bit more like a game so that they enjoy doing it at the same time they receive rewards. And they can make purchases as well with the sustainable brands on our platform.
\n\nVICTORIA: I like that because I've been talking with my partner about how do we live more sustainably, or how do we, like, reduce our consumption or give back. And I think if it was gamified and we got points for it, it's more motivating because then you also see that other people are doing it as well. And so, you're part of a community that's all trying to take the same action. And that will have a bigger impact than just one individual, right?
\n\nSANGHMITRA: Yes, definitely. And we do have that feature on our platform where you could see near your area who donated and who is working in a particular NGO, so based on the fact that if the individual is comfortable in sharing that. Most of the time, when someone does something good for the planet, they would love to show it to the rest of the world. So, we have seen that people love to share their experiences and their badges, saying that, okay, they donated, for example, five euros to this NGO, and so on. So, they really love that. And it feels also really good to see this community and to get inspired by it.
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\n\nWILL: I think it's going to take all of us doing something to help with climate change and to make a difference. So, I like how you're incentivizing. You're making a difference. You say you get reward points. So, once I do an item or an action and I get reward points, what does that look like on the backend of it?
\n\nSANGHMITRA: For the individuals they have a dashboard to track their actions. They have a dashboard to also track what they are purchasing. So, if they're purchasing food or they're purchasing more items related to fashion, they can also check that. They can check the total number of points that they have received so far, where they have used it, and so on. And at the backend, for us, we see it as the total number of transactions that are taking place, so, for example, how the loyalty point is being used.
\n\nSo, we have APIs that are in place between our platform and the platforms of other sustainable brands in our network. So, in our backend, we can see the transactions; for example, an individual used 100 points to get 10% off from one of the sustainable brands on our platform. And in terms of the sustainable brand side, even they have their own dashboard. They can also track how many individuals are using their points on their platform, and so on. So, they also have access to their own analytics dashboard. And through the same application, they can also provide us the payments through subscription and transaction fees.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that's really interesting. And so, I understand that you've been in the journey for a little while now. And I'm curious: if you go back to when you first got started, what was surprising to you in the discovery phase and maybe caused you to pivot and change strategy?
\n\nSANGHMITRA: So, one thing that I pivoted with was the type of brands that we wanted to onboard. Before, we had a very open approach; for example, we want brands that are sustainable, or if they are upcycling, or if they have, like, a particular social impact attached to it or an environmental impact attached to it. So, we were focusing on having the horizons a bit like the aspects of choosing a sustainable brand to be a partner. It was a bit broader for us.
\n\nBut when we talked with the people, they wanted a niche. For example, they wanted upcycle products. They wanted more brands in the circular economy domain. And that's when we realized that we need to have a niche. So, we focus on the brands that are more linked towards circular economy that are promoting the values of recycling, upcycling, and reusing the products.
\n\nSo, that was when we pivoted with the idea that we should not be open to all sustainable brands. However, we need to be really accurate with our approach. We need to focus on a particular niche. At the same time, we need to also make sure that we measure their impact and report it to our customers to ensure transparency on our platform. So, that became a priority more than having more and more brands on our platform.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I really...that was actually one of my questions I was going to ask you because I like how you are vetting them because I've, especially here in the States, I've seen, like, companies, like, slap 'non-GMO' or 'gluten-free.' And it's like, well, it doesn't even have wheat in it, so, like, yeah, it's gluten-free. So, it's like, it's more of a marketing thing than actually, like, helping out. So, I'm glad you're vetting that. How has that process going for you?
\n\nSANGHMITRA: It's actually going really well, and we have established a five-step onboarding process. And in the first two steps, we also focus on measuring their impact. We have a self-evaluation form. We also check if they have some existing certificates. We also make sure that we have enough data about their supply chain and how they are working. And these are some of the information that we also share with our consumers, the one who would be interested to buy products from these brands, to make sure that we are transparent in our approach.
\n\nThere's also one more thing that we do. It's the quarterly reporting. So, every three months, we also report the individuals who are buying from sustainable brands on our platform that, okay, this brand did better this quarter because they implemented a process that, for example, is reducing a certain amount of emissions from their supply chain, or any other departments. So, these are some of the information that we also share with the individuals.
\n\nVICTORIA: And what does success look like now versus six months from now or five years from now?
\n\nSANGHMITRA: For the moment, success would look like for me to have more connections, more people who support our project and our initiative, and the more people joining us. In terms of the next six months, I think it would be linked to fundraising. But I wouldn't go so far at the moment because, for me, I take one day at a time. And this is something that has been super helpful for me to streamline my tasks. So, I take one day at a time, and it's working really well for me.
\n\nWILL: What are some of your upcoming hurdles that you see?
\n\nSANGHMITRA: When I talk about hurdles, I often see it in two parts, one being the internal hurdles and the other one being external. So, in terms of the internal hurdles, it can be something like I'm putting myself in a box that, okay, I'm a single woman founder. How can I do something good? And just doubting myself and things like that. These are some of the internal hurdles that I'm working on every day [chuckles]. I'm also talking to executive coaches to get their advice on how I can improve myself as well to overcome these internal hurdles.
\n\nHowever, in terms of the external hurdles, these are some things that are not in my control, but I try my best to make the most of it. Currently, in terms of the external hurdles, I would say that I live in a country where I used to not even speak the language. So, initially, the hurdle that I experienced was mostly the cultural hurdle. But now it's more related to the fact that I am a single female founder, and there are perceptions around it that you need to have a co-founder. And there are a lot of different noises everywhere that doesn't allow you to grow.
\n\nVICTORIA: And you're not just a founder, but you're also an author. And I wanted to ask you a little bit about your book, the Sustainability Pendulum. Can you share a little bit about what it is and why you wrote it?
\n\nSANGHMITRA: So, Sustainability Pendulum is the book that I wrote last year, and I always wanted to write it. And last year, I put myself to work, and I was like, at least every day, I'm going to try and write one page, and probably by the end of the year, I can finish the book [chuckles], and that's what I did. I had to be super consistent. But I came up with Sustainability Pendulum, and it's about the stories from the past and the sustainable approaches that we had in the past, how we used to...in different religions, we have some stories written in the scriptures related to sustainable practices.
\n\nAnd oftentimes, when we talk about sustainability today, we talk about the future. We talk about implementing different technologies and, doing a lot of innovations, and so on. However, we don't look into the past and see how efficiently things were handled when it came to sustainability in the past. And these are some of the stories from the past, from different religions, and how it transcends to today's sustainability issues and solutions. So, that's what the book is about. And why it's called the pendulum, it's because how the pendulum moves. I think it's obvious [laughs], so the pendulum's to and fro motion. It goes to the past, and it goes to the future. So, that was the whole concept behind the sustainability pendulum.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing that you wrote a book, much, much respect on that. I am not an author, so...And I also know because my wife she's been talking about writing a book and the different challenges with that. So, kudos on writing a book. Would you write another one?
\n\nSANGHMITRA: Actually, I would love to. I'm just looking for something that equally inspires me how it did for the last one. But I think once you come out of that space and you're consistent with writing the book or consistently working to achieve something, I think eventually it comes to you. So, I don't know what are the challenges that your wife mentions that she faced in writing the book.
\n\nWILL: Like, having enough to write about, like you said, just sitting down each day writing a book. And I think publishing a book is tough. I know we've come a long ways, like, you can self-publish now instead of going through publishing companies, and just those different avenues of how many steps it takes. It's not just writing a book, sitting down and writing a book, and sharing with everyone. It's multiple steps that you have to go through.
\n\nSANGHMITRA: Definitely. I couldn't agree more with you on this one. Just to add to it, how I managed to do this was also because I structured the book earlier. And in order to also publish it, I realized that I don't want to wait. And I self-published the book as soon as I found out that, okay, this is perfect, and it's ready. I need to just move forward with it. What helped me as well was the way I structured the book earlier. And then, I was like, okay, every day, this is what I'm going to work on. And it kind of helped me to get to the end of it.
\n\nWILL: That's awesome. I like how you had forethought and how it made it easier for you to come up with ideas and write it. So, that's awesome.
\n\nSANGHMITRA: I wish the best to your wife as well for her book. And I hope that once it's ready, you will let me know about it.
\n\nWILL: Yes, I definitely will. You're talking about being a woman founder who is single. I don't want to assume. So, why is it tough for you to be a woman founder who's single?
\n\nSANGHMITRA: When I say single female founder, it means that I don't have a co-founder. It's not, like, my relationship status but just [laughs] the fact that...
\n\nWILL: Yes. Yes.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nSANGHMITRA: Just that I am a single founder, like, then I don't have a co-founder, which oftentimes poses as a risk, especially when you talk to an investor. This is what I feel based on my experience. But I think the times are changing, and I feel that the more the project is growing, the better it is getting in terms of the people who are interested as well to be a part of Insusty as an investor or as a partner. Things have become better now than they were a few years ago. So, I can see the change.
\n\nBut, initially, I did used to feel low about it that, okay, I'm a single female founder, and oftentimes, it was considered as a challenge. But if you take my perspective, I think, for me personally, it possibly was also one of my biggest strengths because I could be that one person going to the meetings, and I felt that people were more open to share things. They did not feel threatened by me. And that was something that really helped me to also form connections with people.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love how you connect having a small community in your village where you grew up to creating a community around yourself as a founder and having a village that supports you, and you feel comfortable around the community as well, and as part of that community. If you could go back in time and give yourself some advice when you were first getting started with Insusty, what advice would you give yourself?
\n\nSANGHMITRA: Slow is good. When I say that, I mean that every time we talk about different startups and different companies, and it's always about how rapidly the startup is growing, how exponentially they are growing, and so on. But I feel that in terms of when you really want to create an impact, and you are in the green tech space as well, being slow and getting somewhere is better than going fast and then having a burnout. So, one of the things that I would tell myself when I just started would be slow is good.
\n\nWILL: Even with coding and a lot of things in life, I feel like that's really good advice: slow is good. Slow down––enjoy the moment. So, I like that advice.
\n\nVICTORIA: I was going to say, it sounds like a more sustainable pace for yourself also [laughs].
\n\nSANGHMITRA: Exactly.
\n\nVICTORIA: Sustainability in the environment, and also in our own energy, and emotions, and motivation to get things done. So, I love that.
\n\nWILL: I see what you did there [laughter].
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, [inaudible 30:40] all back. Do you have anything else that you'd like to promote?
\n\nSANGHMITRA: I would really love to also tell people that I'm very open to communication. So, if anyone would like to reach out to me on LinkedIn, it would be really awesome, and we can get on a call as well. I have my Calendly link right on my profile, and I'm very open to communication. So, if there is someone who would like to talk to me about any of the things that interest them or probably something that they could advise me or I could learn from them, I'm more than open to do so.
\n\nVICTORIA: Love that. And then, do you have any questions for me or Will?
\n\nSANGHMITRA: So, in terms of the development part, I do have some questions, like, in the technical side. So, when it comes to the fact that we have to kind of calculate the eco actions of individuals in the future, we want to also see if we can calculate the daily actions that they do, for example, walking instead of taking a cab, or segregating their waste, et cetera. I wanted to know, in the future, I want to implement these features, but can we actually get a perfect product around it? Is that possible where we can track everything?
\n\nWILL: Yeah. So, when you say track everything, like, I know you talked about walking and some of the different actions. Can you expound on that?
\n\nSANGHMITRA: For example, instead of IoTs...because I know that some hotels they do use IoT devices to track the water consumption, and so on. However, on an individual level, how can we just track it through the smartphone or through the app that they have? Because, okay, walking can be tracked. This is actually one of the challenges I'm facing, so I want to just be open about it, and I'm very open to ideas also. If you have some ideas that I could experiment around, I would really love to. In terms of the activities like walking, waste disposal, and so on, do you think that there are some kind of features that we could implement to track these actions?
\n\nOne of the things that I was thinking about was we let people take a photo of how they are segregating the waste in the end, and through that, we can tell them, "Okay, this is great," and we give them the points. But how can we do it and also automate it at the same time?
\n\nVICTORIA: So, one approach that I know when people work at thoughtbot on these types of issues and trying to figure out, like, what is the right feature? How are we going to implement this? Going through a product design sprint where you spend a week with a product designer and someone who can, you know, really quickly create MVPs. And you go through this process of figuring out what's the most important feature. And you're talking to users, and you're trying to...you're going through that discovery process in a short period. And we actually have a video series where we walk through every step of that process.
\n\nBut, like, for me personally, things that I can think of in my life that I would want to track one thing I've been trying to do more is actually electronic recycling, which in the U.S. my neighborhood is different. It's only open on, like, Thursdays and Saturdays. And I have to, like, really remember to go out there and, like, put my electronics out there. And I don't think it's very, like, well-known. So, I think that would be something interesting to, like, promote as possible.
\n\nAnd we also have the green bins now, which are new, which allow you in California to, like, have composting. So, you have now your regular trash, your recycling, and your compost bins. So, actually, like, trying to use those and track them. Otherwise, one of the things I think about is, like, reducing the amount of plastic consumption, which includes things like, you know, when you buy toilet paper, it comes wrapped in plastic. How can I incentivize myself and my partner and even my family to, like, switch away from those types of products and get more into, you know, using towels instead of paper towels or finding alternative methods for getting those products while reducing the amount of plastic that comes with it?
\n\nSANGHMITRA: That's super interesting. I'm really, really glad to have your insights as well. I do have a question for you. Have you worked with startups in the field of impact? And if so, what have been some of the ideas that you really loved to implement?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, actually, we had another guest on the Giant Robots podcast who I think you're connected with as well who created essentially, like, a GoFundMe but for environmental projects and in areas that, you know, a 5,000 grant to help do a beach cleanup could have a really big impact. Like funding programs and marketplace for those types of green projects in areas that are the most impacted by climate change and have the fewest resources to actually do anything about it.
\n\nSo, I thought that was really exciting in trying to figure out how can we use tech to solve problems for real people, and for people that don't typically get the focus or the majority of the funding, or the majority of time spent in those communities. So, that, I think, is what is really exciting: to see people come from those communities and then figure out how to build solutions to serve them.
\n\nSANGHMITRA: That's really wonderful. Is there, like, a specific market where you have seen growth of such startups and companies more? The companies especially you have worked with in the past and in there in the field of impact, are they mostly from the U.S., or which are the markets they are from essentially?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. So, I mean, I'm from the U.S., so that's where I see the most. I'm in San Diego. So, when I go to, like, startup weeks and things like that, that's where I'm getting the majority of my exposure. I do also know that there is a Bloomberg Center focusing on excellence and data in the governments. And that's not just U.S.-based but going more global as well, so trying to teach civic leaders how they can use the data about whether it's sustainability or other issues that they're facing too, like, figure out how to prioritize their funding and in what projects they're going to invest in from there. So, I think that's really interesting.
\n\nI don't know, I don't know what the answer is, but I know that there are some countries that are hoping to make the investments in sustainability and ecotourism, as opposed to allowing industry to come in and do whatever they want [laughs]. So, I don't know if that answers your question or not.
\n\nSANGHMITRA: Yeah, I think it completely answers my question. Thank you for sharing that and also a bit more.
\n\nWILL: There's so many things that I've learned through the podcast. So, I'm excited to see the impact it has. And I think you're doing an amazing job.
\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you so much for coming on and being with us here today and sharing your story.
\n\nSANGHMITRA: Thank you.
\n\nWILL: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@ giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nVICTORIA: And you can find me on Mastodon @thoughtbot.social@vguido.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.
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Sponsored By:
Hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido are joined by Zamina Karim, the CEO and Founder of Mevi, a community-driven motherhood wellness app designed to address the unique challenges of motherhood, especially in the context of the pandemic. Zamina shares her journey from experiencing postpartum anxiety and depression to founding Mevi. She discusses the lack of understanding and support for new mothers, especially during the pandemic when traditional support structures were unavailable. The conversation also touches on parenting challenges in the current era, underscoring the need for community and support.
\n\nThe app aims to revolutionize maternal health by fostering connections among mothers and providing support for the challenges of motherhood beyond medical visits. Zamina's approach to building Mevi is rooted in empathy, aiming to address new mothers' emotional and practical needs and fill a significant gap in current maternal health support.
\n\nZamina also talks about the broader implications of Mevi's mission, the evolving startup funding landscape, and the importance of pivoting and adapting in the entrepreneurial journey. She emphasizes the role of empathy in building inclusive experiences for parents and the potential of technology to improve maternal health outcomes.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Zamina Karim, CEO and Founder of Mevi, the first-ever community-driven motherhood wellness app. Zamina, thank you for joining us.
\n\nZAMINA: Thank you so much for having me.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, outside of founding Mevi, what keeps you going? What's exciting for you right now in your world?
\n\nZAMINA: Well, I have a toddler. She is two turning three, and she keeps me incredibly active and stimulated throughout the day. And I have my hands full with her throughout the day. And outside of that, I've just jumped into the business full-time. So, I'm navigating solo foundership and recognizing how different of an experience that is when you have been working in a team environment for the last 15 years or so. So, that's kind of what's been keeping me busy the last few months.
\n\nWILL: You mentioned your daughter. When you became a parent, I know there's something surprising; there's plenty. But what was the most surprising thing that you went through when you became a parent?
\n\nZAMINA: Oh my gosh, there were so many things. You're totally right, Will. But I think, for me, it was a really big emphasis that I noticed on the products that I would need to have. And if I had all of those products, I would be ready and I would be well on my way, and parenting would be a breeze. And it kicked me on my butt when I realized that having the perfect car seat and the perfect stroller was not setting me up for success.
\n\nAnd there was a lot that I didn't know and didn't realize, even though I had done so much research and had a lot of other parents in my network. I think it's one of those things that you don't truly understand until you have experienced it yourself and you are living through it.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, then, what led you to start Mevi?
\n\nZAMINA: Mevi was started because my baby was born during the pandemic, and I experienced a ton of challenges during that time. I struggled with symptoms of anxiety and depression for over a year. But I didn't really need any clinical diagnosis, and so no one knew how to help me in my family. And I did not know how to help myself either. And I really felt the Western sort of pressure of having to do it all. And I was quite frankly embarrassed by the struggles that I was experiencing.
\n\nAnd, you know, you never really go back to your old self. But once she turned one, I started to feel a little bit more balanced. And I came out of my shell, and I started speaking with other women from all over the world really. And I learned very quickly that my experience was the norm and not the exception. And that really was the inspiration to go ahead and try to solve that problem.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. I remember we had my middle child at the very beginning of July 2020. And the first thing that was rough is that was whenever they were like, "If you have COVID, we may have to separate you from your child when you have birth," and it was terrifying. And they ended up not doing that. We didn't have COVID or anything. But I remember, because we have three now, and I remember thinking, like, if I was a parent of a single child, it would have to be rough because, like, the child is not playing with anyone, and you're also by yourself. So, I totally relate with what you're saying.
\n\nZAMINA: Yeah, absolutely. And then, beyond that, all of those kinds of traditional childcare centers or places where people would congregate were shut down. And up here in Canada, a lot of those places haven't really opened back up, and so there was no real bounce back to a pre-pandemic norm. A lot of families are now just navigating with this as the new normal. So, I think it's really important to recognize that parenting in 2021 and beyond is really different from what it was pre-pandemic.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, you had this acute need yourself to build a community to survive [laughs]. What in your background led you to think, oh, I could start a company around this; I could build the solution for this problem?
\n\nZAMINA: Yeah, it's actually a really interesting mix of personal and more technical and career-driven. So, on a personal level, I was born in India, and my parents are from East Africa. So, that cultural element really bleeds into my perspectives and my values on life, as well as what's missing in healthcare today, so this idea of taking a prevention-focused approach or addressing root causes rather than addressing symptoms, which is a lot more common in today's kind of healthcare context.
\n\nAnd then, on a more career-based side, my background is in consumer tech, growth marketing. And I studied psychology and human development when I was in school. So, all of these areas really came together as the perfect combination for starting Mevi because I had this hard tech background. I know how to code. I self-taught Ruby on Rails about ten years ago. And then I'd worked in this consumer space, kind of selling things for companies like Masterclass, and Uber, and Lululemon, and Aritzia. And I had this experience on the paid acquisition side as well.
\n\nSo, all of those things really came together for me to feel equipped to step into this journey of building Mevi. But I think no matter what technical or kind of soft skills you have, it is still a huge climb when building a company from scratch and, in particular, when you're doing it as a solo founder.
\n\nWILL: Wow, that's so amazing. I love your background, and I love especially talking to founders who have a technical background and kind of seeing how their journey was. Did your technical background help you in anything, or did you code your app?
\n\nZAMINA: I did not code the app. Because I was on the tech side over a decade ago, so I was building apps about ten years ago; it's one of those muscles where it can very quickly atrophy. And things now are developing at such a rapid pace compared to when I was in the space that I'm no longer someone who would be best suited to actually code the app. I would be spending a lot of time relearning versus just delegating that to somebody else.
\n\nBut I do possess the ability to talk to engineers and to be able to navigate some of the architecture and the fundamentals with them and that, for me, has been a really big game changer because I'm not completely lost when chatting with technical folks. And I can kind of navigate my way around with a little bit more ease than I would be able to if I didn't have that background.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. I want to talk about how you're thinking about building your team for the future and filling in those gaps that you may have since you have such a well-rounded background. But first, I wanted to go back to, what stage do you feel like you are in your product life cycle? Are you still in the discovery phase or you have an MVP? What's the phase you're at right now?
\n\nZAMINA: We are getting our MVP built right now. So, I've done about a year's worth of user interviews, research, chatting with folks all over the world, and really doing my best at validating the concept, and the idea, and the problem space. And one thing I will say is that the problem space is super clear. Famtech and femtech are places where there's a lot of capital being invested, and there's a lot of incredible innovation happening. But the solution is something that I think is always going to be evolving as needs of parents evolve. But right now, I have a pretty solid idea of what the product should be in its first iteration, and that is what we'll be launching with in 2024. And we'll be testing with some select partners.
\n\nWILL: I'm so excited for you. Can you explain what is Mevi? What's the problem that you're looking to solve with it?
\n\nZAMINA: We are rooted in this belief that all of the negative symptoms, the stress, the mental health disorders that are experienced by moms stem from the isolation and lack of connection that they have to their communities. So, our mission is to really revolutionize maternal health by caring for the life that happens in between doctor's visits. Really, that is where life happens. And in doing so, we want to solve for those two specific root cause factors, emotional support and social isolation, that contribute the most to postpartum disorder.
\n\nSo, from a practical standpoint, what Mevi is really going to do is connect moms to their personalized support networks so that they can delegate things like critical care tasks, activities of daily living, support with things at home, as well as emotional and mental health support to their support network so that they can basically show up for them in the way that they most need.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really exciting. And to play that back a bit, it's interesting from your research and from your own experience that the thing that was missing was that element of community and connection to other people. Can you tell us more about that?
\n\nZAMINA: In today's world, moms are expected to do it all, and we're kind of conditioned to that regard in every aspect of our lives. And there's a lot of support lacking for moms from a childcare perspective, from a systemic support perspective around things like maternity leave. And, ultimately, I think we're kind of given these signals that we should be able to do it alone, so we should just go ahead and do that.
\n\nAnd I think, for that reason, a lot of women really struggle because when they do ultimately step into parenthood, particularly in a post-pandemic context, they are incredibly overwhelmed, but they're getting all of these signals that they should be able to do it. And so, then they feel incredibly isolated and really struggle with those feelings.
\n\nAnd so, what Mevi and what I, as a person and as a founder I'm really trying to address and bring attention to is this idea that women absolutely cannot do it alone. And that over the last, you know, 10,000 years, we have raised children, and we have also raised mothers with the support of villages. And those villages look different for different people, but that's really the case across the entire planet. And so, what I really want to do is to bring attention back to the fact that it's important to build your personal village and to be able to request support from them in the ways you need.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. So, I was looking at your website when I was doing some research, and the very first, I guess, banner, you can call it, with a text message in it, there's a text message that's sent to the mom, and I'm guessing it's AI-driven. It's asking, "Hey. Out of these three options, what exactly do you need help in?" Can you walk me through what that looks like? Is it AI-driven that sends the text out and it has a list of friends and family that sends the text to, or how does that work?
\n\nZAMINA: Yeah. So, first big disclaimer is that what you see on the website was actually our alpha product that we tested up here in Canada with a cohort of new moms. And that was really built to validate the problem space and to understand if a solution like this would be impactful. And that was actually not AI-driven, believe it or not. It was largely built through automation tools and a database of text messages that yours truly wrote and connected with Twilio. So, it was really kind of strung together on the back-end prototype that we used to understand if getting help on tasks like this would be beneficial.
\n\nWe also were sending regular kind of positive reinforcement messages, just like, you know, resources, notes, things like that, to those moms just to give them kind of a daily positive reminder. But those text messages were also being sent, yes, to their support networks that they would sign up, so their partner, perhaps their mother, their mother-in-law, their sisters, their friends, so on and so forth. And we would determine which messages would go to whom.
\n\nAnd through that test, we realized that there was kind of a really positive response to what this was trying to achieve but that it was quite limited in its functionality because it was hard coded on the backend, and there wasn't really a lot of AI leveraged. So, we are now moving into building out an MVP, which will be a mobile app.
\n\nWILL: Wow. I can definitely see how this is beneficial because we have three kids, and my oldest and my youngest share the same birthday, so three kids in three years. And it seems like, oh, why are you asking that simple question? Sometimes, the simple question is exactly what you need. "Hey, how can I help?" And given choices, that is huge just to nudge what you need help.
\n\nBecause, like, I love my sleep and [chuckles] with kids, you don't really get sleep sometimes. And I used to remember everything, but my youngest has been dealing with earaches probably over the last month, and I am forgetting a lot just because [chuckles] I haven't been getting sleep. So, I love what you're doing. And the purpose and the problem you're trying to solve, I think is much needed.
\n\nZAMINA: Yeah, thank you so much. That point that you made about giving options is really important because, especially when you're encountering motherhood for the first time, it's quite daunting, and you don't really know what you don't know. And so, people will say, "Oh, you know, I'm here for you. Let me know how I can help." But that in and of itself is a huge barrier because you don't really know what to ask. You don't want to infringe on them. You don't want to make it inconvenient for them. And there's also boundaries that you want to set in terms of who you want to let into your home and let into your personal space and that kind of thing.
\n\nSo, I think it's really important to provide a little bit of education for new mothers around what kinds of things they can typically benefit from getting support with, particularly in the home in those early days. As an example, a lot of moms feel hesitant about letting others come into their home to hold their child. They actually would prefer that others come into the home and support them with the dishes or making a meal so that they can stay close to their baby, particularly in those early days when babies are feeding around the clock, and skin-to-skin contact is really important.
\n\nAnd so, it's really important to provide that guidance, especially to new moms, so that they can share that with their support networks. But then also sharing that information with their support network so that they don't feel insulted or they don't feel bad when their requests for support are directed in a different way. So, through Mevi, we also hope to provide that education and that guidance to everybody that's in the network so that they understand how to be helpful. Because I think at the end of the day, a lot of our friends and our families genuinely want to be there for us, but they just don't know how. And so, we're really there to be those coaches for them.
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\n\nVICTORIA: I'm curious about...I think it's a hashtag on your LinkedIn profile for empathetic tech. Based on what you're describing, how does that relate to what you're building and how you build empathy into the technology and products?
\n\nZAMINA: I am so committed to proving that we can build great businesses that do good in the world, that support women's health outcomes but are still businesses at the end of the day and make great revenue and great profits. When I came out into the space, and I kind of said, "Okay, I'm here, and I'm building this thing," particularly because I'm solving a problem for mothers, I often got met with this question of "Well, is it a nonprofit?" And no, absolutely not. It is not a nonprofit. It is intended to be a scalable business.
\n\nBut I think a lot of people have a misunderstanding that if you're building something that is good for the world, that it won't generate revenue and profit. And so, from an empathetic tech standpoint, that's really something that I am kind of on a mission to prove through Mevi and through my own kind of personal endeavors. It's something that's really close to my heart. And I really, really want to put femtech on the map for that reason. And from a product standpoint, I mean, we have lots of ideas about how we can build that empathy directly into the product.
\n\nBut I think the biggest thing is coaching moms to be vulnerable in ways that feel accessible to them. Again, back to this idea that women are expected to do it all and moms are expected to do it all, I think if we can start to nudge moms to sharing with their closed private networks of, you know, the handpicked people that they've put into their support networks about how they're feeling, what they need help with, you know, their mood day to day, those kinds of things, we can start to build more empathy, both in the context of that particular family, but in the broader context of motherhood as a whole.
\n\nWILL: Why do you think they automatically go to, "Oh, it's a nonprofit business," when you're talking about the mental health of women and anything in that category?
\n\nZAMINA: I haven't figured it out yet [laughs], but in part, it feels like it's a social endeavor. "Oh, you're here to solve your own problem." And yes, I'm here to solve my own problem, but really, this is the problem of women across Canada, and the States, parts of Europe, and in Australia, and New Zealand. And so, it's not just a small niche problem.
\n\nBut I think a lot of people who I've encountered, particularly in the earlier days of when I had just kind of come up on the scene, I was talking with a lot of people who didn't resonate because either they were male. They didn't have children. They weren't familiar with healthtech or femtech. And so, for them, they were like, "I don't understand this space. It must not be very big. It must not be very important," but it's quite the contrary.
\n\nVICTORIA: What other challenges have you faced so far on your journey?
\n\nZAMINA: The other big one, honestly, is the fact that I'm a solo founder. For the last 15, 20 years, I have been working with people day in and day out, and, you know, whether it's in office or remotely, I had the option to kind of jam with them throughout the day on different problems. And in this particular journey, I don't really have that in the same way that I have been familiar with for, you know, my entire career. So, that has been a huge learning curve for me.
\n\nAnd I have really recognized that the journey of entrepreneurship is just as much of a mental one as it is everything else, and finding ways to cope with the kind of emotional ups and downs as you get lots of wins. But you also get doors closed in your face. All of those things require an immense amount of grit and resilience. And when you are going at it alone, it can be a little bit harder to navigate that.
\n\nBut I'm slowly starting to really find my rhythm. And I've really managed to do that, I think, in large part due to an advisory board that I have built of people who are really looking to support me, who are bullish on the mission, who believe that this is a really big problem that deserves to be solved, and are helping to clear roadblocks and obstacles, both, you know, in the environment, but also for me when I get in my own head about things. And that has been really, really powerful for me is, kind of building that advisory board of people.
\n\nWILL: Since we're talking about hurdles, what are some of the hurdles you see in the future? Since we talked about your past ones and your current ones, do you see any on the future—on the horizon?
\n\nZAMINA: Yeah, I mean, obviously, there's the kind of traditional ones of finding product-market fit and landing the product with that ideal customer. And so, I'm really excited about the work that's being done right now to get there. But, obviously, it's going to be a constant, you know, road of iteration and evolution on the product space. And that is one that I'm really excited about.
\n\nBut I think the other bigger one is just the consumer landscape right now is a tough one to be in. Capital is drying up from an investment standpoint. And I've seen a lot of founders who are farther ahead in their journey, who have incredible results, that are growing rapidly year on year, and they are struggling to raise money. And they've got traction, really, really great traction.
\n\nSo, at this stage, it's really important for me to find ways to self-fund and bootstrap through this period, which ultimately, I think is going to give me a competitive advantage. It's going to give every founder who's doing the same thing a competitive advantage in the long run because I believe that if you can get traction in this environment, you're truly building a really great business. But I do see that this area of capital being one that founders are really going to have to navigate for the next year or two.
\n\nVICTORIA: That resonates with some stories that we've heard as well. And I'm curious to hear you talk about the discovery process a little bit more. Was there anything that you discovered early on that caused you to pivot in strategy?
\n\nZAMINA: So, I joined a pre-accelerator in San Francisco late 2023. And we built this vision of the MVP that I was really excited about. And as I was getting ready to think about actually building it out, what I realized was that in the feature set that we had built out, we were trying to do way too much. I had this vision of what Mevi could be ten years from now, and I was almost trying to build that in in an MVP.
\n\nAnd so, one of the big pivots that I made from a product perspective was really, really dialing it back and simplifying the feature set to really what I believed and what I had heard from folks would be the most impactful for them rather than, you know, squeezing in a bunch of other things that would be kind of beneficial or a value-add in the long run. I really wanted to ensure that when we did launch and when we do launch that, people really understand what we're here to do. And then, over time, as we get more and more consumer feedback, of course, we can continue to build the product in the direction that folks are desiring. But that was an early pivot.
\n\nAnd another one was more on the business model side, and this is one that I'm still kind of workshopping and working through with different folks. But this idea of going direct to consumer versus actually going to other companies and other businesses who serve this population of new mothers and actually selling the product to them, and then having them use it in their different contexts as they serve their clients.
\n\nAnd so, we've kind of pivoted our business model from B2C to B2B2C, which, even in doing so over the last month, has really, really gotten a lot of very positive signals that that is kind of the right approach to be making in the short term. And then, of course, you know, again, once we launch and we get that consumer feedback, we will continue to explore and expand other business models. But early on, I was just trying to do a lot. And in both of those pivots, I found some focus, and I'm really, really excited by that.
\n\nWILL: That's awesome. I love how you said pivoting. I think that's probably the core to having a successful business, knowing when to pivot, knowing when not to. What does success look like for you in, like, the next six months, you know, five years, especially when...I know you have a launch coming up. You're talking about raising capital. You kind of pivot on your business plans a little. What does it look like to be successful in that timeframe?
\n\nZAMINA: In the next few months, success is really just going to be doing what we say we're going to do and putting an app out into the market and having it really be tested with some hand-picked partners who are also innovating in the maternal health space. I really believe in aligning with people who believe deeply in solving this problem. And I think that's just the low-hanging fruit as well from a business standpoint. And so, over the next six months, that's really what I'll be prioritizing.
\n\nAnd then, over the next, gosh, five, seven years, I really want it to be a full suite of features and tools that moms can leverage through a mobile platform. I really want it to be kind of, like, the Flo app [chuckles] for mothering, a household name that is doled out, you know, from OBGYNs who are saying, "Oh, hey, you should check this out now that you're pregnant," used by doula practices or midwife institutes, circulated among friends as the must-have app to have on your phone when you find out that you're pregnant. Obviously, that is a really, really lofty goal. But I do believe that there is a pretty big gap in this market, and I'm excited to try to fill it.
\n\nVICTORIA: How do you balance having ambitious goals against also needing to maintain your life and your life as a parent?
\n\nZAMINA: I have a really incredible support system. My husband is an entrepreneur as well. And really, my career over the last ten years allowed him to pursue his entrepreneurial dreams, and he's absolutely killing it. And so, he kind of said to me, "Hey, it's your turn. I really want to give you the space to try this thing out and see where it can go. I really believe in it." I have him kind of in my corner every day, cheering me on and giving me a lot of space to learn and, grow and pivot from time to time.
\n\nBut I also think that he's really great from a financial standpoint and helping me kind of navigate, you know, these goals and understanding kind of the revenue potential of the business and those kinds of things. And so, I have a really great balance of, you know, me being kind of pie in the sky, head in the clouds, really, really aspirational about what I'm building. And he does two things really great. He kind of brings me back to earth sometimes, but he also has a really, really great financial acumen that he lends to the business. And so, he's really kind of my champion and has allowed me to pursue this.
\n\nWILL: I'm so glad that you have a supportive partner. That could be a make-it or break-it a lot of times. It's just someone in your corner that you can trust and know that they have your back. I think that's just huge.
\n\nZAMINA: Yeah, absolutely. I'm super lucky.
\n\nWILL: What motivates you? What makes you...because being an entrepreneur is not easy. It's a lot of long hours, a lot of sleepless nights at times. So, what motivates you to want to be an entrepreneur?
\n\nZAMINA: I really want to leave the world in a better place than I found it. I spent a lot of time in my career, particularly on the marketing side, selling people things. And some of those things were great, and some of those things were absolutely things that they did not need. And I think once I became a parent, my perspective on life really shifted. And I realized that I wanted to spend my time doing something that I could be proud of but that would also, you know, do good in the world.
\n\nI'm fueled by this idea that I'm building in a space that has kind of been underserved for decades and, that I'm solving a real-world tangible problem, and that I have a lot of people who have provided some incredible guidance, feedback, support along the way, who are validating the journey that we're on. And so, all of those things kind of, you know, fuel me in that way.
\n\nAnd then, I think from a practical standpoint, just being able to build and design my life in the way that, you know, excites me, being able to spend time with my family, to have that flexibility. You know, in these early days, I don't have a lot of that because I'm spending a lot of time in the business, but I'm excited by the opportunity that it will present in the long run.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really exciting. And it reminds me just about what are your core values, and what values drive your everyday decisions?
\n\nZAMINA: I think it's really the one around the desire to leave the world in a better place. Again, when my daughter was born, I just saw things in a really different way. You know, I think I had been largely ignorant to a lot of that and not to the fault of my own. I think it's just one of those things that you don't really understand until you become a parent.
\n\nYou see how difficult it is to obtain childcare. You see how predatory it can be when it comes to consumption around toys, and products, and nutrition. And there's just a lot of things that become apparent to you that you don't really realize. And so, anything that I do and anyone that I align myself with is really centered around this idea and this desire to leave the world in a better place than I found it.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I wish there were so many more resources out there because it's a hard thing to do. So, I really am glad that you're doing this. And it kind of leads into my next question. Do you have any advice for building an inclusive experience for parents?
\n\nZAMINA: If you spend any time on social media, you will see that people are very quick to dole out advice and to have comments on how other people choose to do things in their families, particularly in the context of, you know, female and motherhood-based content creators. And, honestly, the biggest thing that's missing when those kinds of things happen is empathy.
\n\nA lot of the times, we feel maybe a little bit insecure, or we feel worried that decisions that we're making are not good, or we feel worried about being judged. And so, maybe we shift that onto other people. We project that onto other people. And what I've just seen come up time and time again is if everyone could just see the fact that everyone's struggle is very unique to their individual context. You never know what other families might be dealing with. You don't understand, you know, what difficulties they might be having at work, what difficulties they might be having with childcare, what their financial situation is. And all of that informs their decision-making, and everyone's just doing the best that they can.
\n\nYou know, when it comes to how we engage with other parents on social media, how we engage with other parents in real life, at work, in products, it's really just about trying to bridge the gap through empathy. And that's obviously way, way easier said than done. But I think it's really important because sometimes we just need that window to get the glance into other people's lives to really understand, oh, I should maybe, you know, keep that particular opinion to myself or maybe not be so judgmental in this particular context? And so, yeah, I think that's the biggest piece of advice that I have just for anyone that is navigating life in any context with a parent.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really helpful. Thank you. And it's, like, leading with empathy again, right?
\n\nZAMINA: Absolutely. Yeah [laughs]. The commonality here is absolutely leading with empathy.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, wonderful. I've really enjoyed our conversation so far. Is there anything else that you would like to promote?
\n\nZAMINA: Two quick things. Like I said, we are getting ready to launch in the middle of the year, so I'm really excited for that. And if anyone listening is excited by the mission, you can sign up for our waitlist at getmevi.com. Again, disclaimer, the website is a little bit out of date. It needs some work. But the wait list is very much active and works just fine. So, it'd be great to capture your intention there. And then, you can also follow us on Instagram @getmevi.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. And also, do you have any questions for me or Will?
\n\nZAMINA: Gosh, yeah, I mean, I would love to understand kind of what patterns are you seeing in terms of what founders are building right now? Have you noticed kind of any underlying trends that you think would be valuable to share?
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, I can talk about my experience connecting to the San Diego community, startup and founders community. So, it is interesting. I think what you mentioned earlier about trying to bootstrap as much as you can and do it yourself as much as you can. I've seen founders show an interest in learning more about low-code tools and using those to prove out their MVP and prove out their concept and go from there.
\n\nThere's always shifts in the investment, right? So, people, I think, are even more going to fall into their similar patterns for what they choose to invest in and take less risks. It's trending upward again, and we're starting to see some signs of investment picking up again.
\n\nYou know, being in San Diego is an interesting place because we're right next to Tijuana, and you can be in Mexico in 30 minutes from my house or 45, depending on traffic. And there's just a lot of opportunity to do all different types of startups around here: biotech startups and startups that help you predict if breast cancer is going to come back. And there's also just all kinds of interesting things going on with actual physical products as well and treating products as more of a startup-type model. So, that's what I see going around here. But, Will, what do you think?
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I was actually thinking about probably the last two or three podcast episodes that I recorded, it was around parenting and motherhood. So, I think that's a good thing because, like you said, it's an underserved area, but it's amazing to see what that community is doing. And I think it's going to be so good, especially in the next couple of years. After talking to those founders and even yourself, the pandemic, I think, encouraged a lot of that growth in that area. So, I think we're going to see a lot of growth in that area, and I'm excited about it.
\n\nZAMINA: Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with both of those things. And I think the no-code one is one in particular that will fuel a lot of innovation, not only in this industry but across tech as a whole. I'm seeing some really, really great advancements happening and making it a lot easier for solo non-technical founders or just non-technical people in general to prototype things very, very quickly.
\n\nVICTORIA: Absolutely. And then, the tools to build products that are really compliant and mature and ready for healthtech and FinTech. There's also so much more out there available to give people the resources they need to do it right. So, it's really interesting. And yeah, I think, like you said, with COVID, too, the acceptance of virtual healthcare and the need for virtual communities, and that's not gone away [laughs]. There are still some people who won't want to re-engage in-person events and community building, so...
\n\nZAMINA: Yeah, this is kind of the new normal for us, and we've got to figure out how do we maintain our well-being and how do we maintain different types of social connectivity in this world that is becoming increasingly interpersonally independent? So, I think even AI and, you know, the Apple Vision Pro has really sparked conversations around what's going to happen to in-person interaction if everyone is wearing these massive devices on their faces? And I think, at this point, we can only imagine. But I do think it's a very practical and real thing that we should be solving for today and not just be waiting until we're all wearing these massive devices to recognize that we need to solve for that connectivity between all of us.
\n\nVICTORIA: Have you tried out a Vision Pro yet?
\n\nZAMINA: I have not. Have you?
\n\nVICTORIA: No, I haven't tried it. And I haven't ever talked to anyone who is using it. So, I'm curious. One of these days.
\n\nZAMINA: I've met a few people, or I know a few people who have tried it, mixed reviews. Obviously, the cost is a big prohibitive factor at the moment. But I think that there's the novelty around the device, which makes it really exciting right now. But I don't really see, like, in my life any practical use cases. You know, even if it was cheaper, if it was the product that it is today and the price was even half of what it is, I still don't really understand how I would benefit from it, but I'm definitely curious to see where it goes.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Like, I want the ability to, like, have a big screen without having a physical screen, but I don't want to wear goggles.
\n\nZAMINA: Totally.
\n\nVICTORIA: I also get nauseous. Like, I actually tried to do a virtual hangout during COVID, and I got some 3D, whatever, virtual glasses. And I got so [chuckles] nauseous so fast. I was like, this isn't...why does anyone enjoy this? And apparently, that's something that happens to women more than men because of hormones.
\n\nZAMINA: Oh, that is so interesting. I did not know that.
\n\nVICTORIA: But I really enjoyed our conversation today. Thank you again so much for joining us.
\n\nWILL: I'm so excited for your launch and your product. I think it's going to make a huge impact in that area. And I just can't wait to see where it goes. And thank you for building it and stepping out and taking that leap to do it.
\n\nZAMINA: Oh yeah. Thank you both so much. It was a really great conversation, and yeah, I'm excited to get launched and excited to stay in touch and see what we do from here.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, we'll have to bring you back in a year and see how things have progressed.
\n\nZAMINA: Yeah. Let's do it. Let's pencil that in [laughs].
\n\nWILL: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nVICTORIA: And you can find me @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.
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Host Will Larry is joined by Priyanka Mahajan, the founder of Ammi, a startup dedicated to supporting new and expectant parents with expertise, support, and community. The conversation highlights the challenges of parenting, the absence of a universal parenting manual, and how Ammi seeks to provide a personalized co-pilot for parents navigating the early stages of parenthood. Priyanka shares her journey from a career in strategy consulting and corporate roles across different countries to founding Ammi, driven by personal experiences and the desire to make a meaningful impact on parents' lives.
\n\nPriyanka discusses the core challenges she faced as a parent, such as dealing with the loss of control, the transition to motherhood, and the importance of acknowledging and navigating the mental and emotional shifts that come with it. She introduces the concept of "matrescence," likening it to adolescence, as a significant, yet underdiscussed, transition into parenthood. Priyanka's personal struggles with anxiety and the impact on her parenting led to the realization of the need for support and resources for parents, particularly in the areas of mental health and emotional well-being.
\n\nAmmi's mission is to fill the gaps in the current parenting support ecosystem by providing accessible expert advice and resources. Priyanka emphasizes the importance of mental health, the creation of a supportive community, and the development of a digital platform tailored to modern parents' needs. Finally, she outlines the challenges and opportunities ahead, including fundraising, product development, and establishing trust with parents.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. And with me today is Priyanka Mahajan, Founder of Ammi, a startup that provides expertise, support, and community to new and expectant parents. Priyanka, thank you for joining me today.
\n\nPRIYANKA: Will, thanks for having me. It's great to be here.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. I'm so excited to talk to you about parenting. Anytime I get to talk about parenting, I light up, so I can't wait to talk to you about it, pick your brain, and just hear any advice you have for me.
\n\nPRIYANKA: [laughs] That's great. It's always nice to talk to people who get the challenges, so very happy to dive into it.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, definitely. Me and my wife we always talk about we wish kids came with a manual because you just don't know what you're going to get. Out of my three kids, they're all not even close to being similar in any way.
\n\nPRIYANKA: No, that's totally right. You know, this manual that most people or most parents wish for after their kids are born doesn't quite exist. And it's also deeply personal, and that's exactly what you mentioned about your kids being different. But each parenting experience and, you know, giving birth is different. Each birth is different. Your body is different. So, all of that is quite deeply personal. And that's essentially what we want to do with Ammi is be able to provide this co-pilot to expectant and new parents to guide and help them through that early phase.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, oh, I can't wait. Before we dive in too deep, can you tell us a little bit about who you are, your background, and kind of how you got to this place?
\n\nPRIYANKA: So, first thing, I suppose, is I am Indian. I was born and raised in India, and I've lived in about four countries, including the U.S., and now live in London. I started my career in the strategy consulting area and then moved into internal strategy roles for telecoms and tech industry. And I had my children through that period of working for big corporates and essentially, you know, was busy climbing the corporate ladder or moved into different roles.
\n\nI have headed teams in marketing, in commercial, in other areas like operations. And eventually ended up being a director of strategy for the EMEA region for this large American telecoms company. And it was then that COVID struck and essentially that's basically where there were big, large life events, which I'm happy to get into later. But essentially, I resigned from my role and decided to focus on more meaningful ventures. So, here I am [laughs].
\n\nWILL: Yeah. So, were there any challenges having a career and having children? There were challenges.
\n\nPRIYANKA: That's right.
\n\nWILL: What were some of the challenges that you faced?
\n\nPRIYANKA: I had my kids really close together. I had a very difficult birth the first time around. I had a very easy pregnancy but a difficult birth. And especially for parents and, you know, women who are mothers, who are giving birth and previously have had this illusion of control, and, you know, being organized and in control and being on top of everything to suddenly not having anything in your control because that's what kids are like.
\n\nAnd not having that acknowledged and, you know, you still expect to do everything in a certain way, and you want to sort of do everything right. And that's just not how parenting is. There's no one right way, and it's okay to make mistakes, but also, equally, it's important to not know that you're failing. And I think that was a challenge that I had equally.
\n\nYou know, I went back into work part-time. And here in the UK, I had a fairly generous maternity leave policy, which was great. But also, having to sort of think about putting my career on a bit of a back burner while my kids took priority was a transition. And just making that transition mentally, emotionally, physically in your life and making space for this new world is quite challenging as, you know, you're sort of grieving the life you had. But you're also embracing what's here and being surprised by it and figuring out who you are.
\n\nAnd that the term, actually, is known as matrescence, right? So, it's this process as we have adolescence. It's becoming a parent. It's, you know, its own transition. And I don't think that's been talked about enough, certainly not when I had my kids. So, I wasn't actually aware that that's what I was going through. I just kept thinking that I'm failing. And I think those memories and that experience was deeply embedded in my sort of process. And I went on to, you know, sort of do other things and go back into my career. And I never really dealt with the emotions that I felt at that stage of my early parenting journey.
\n\nAnd it really all came to light sort of when Ammi was born and hatched in the incubator that I did after I resigned from my corporate role at ZINC, where, you know, the focus was on children and young people's mental health. And in that, I sort of, like, started to research the space and go like, where do you actually start with children and young people? And you start with the parents at that very early stage.
\n\nSo, that's sort of, like, what led me to almost kind of revisit my own experiences in that phase and think, you know, there was something there. And if we had probably done things differently, maybe the outcomes might have been different for our family, the way that we did things or the way that we dealt with each other in those early years.
\n\nBecause the other thing I learned as well while I was doing my research in that space, which I didn't know at the time when I had my kids, is that children have their emotional development take place pretty much by the time from zero to three years of age. So, it's a very significant period of sort of secure attachment, as we call it, and things. So, that's, again, a lot of concepts that I wasn't familiar with, and I wish that I was kinder to myself. And that's basically what I want to do for the community that I'm supporting through Ammi.
\n\nWILL: That is such a good point because my oldest son he has a lot of tendecies that are like mine. So, we're a lot alike, and I find that mental health aspect of that, like, how can I help him the most? How can I help him to where he doesn't have the same failures I have? Like, it's not easy being a parent because it's like, do I step in? Do I not? Do I let him fail? Do I not let him fail?
\n\nSo, like, and like you said, I think parenting is probably one of the most lonely things you can go through at times, depending on who's around you, if you have family around you, friends that have children, or not. So, I'm so glad that you said that you're diving into that mental health aspect also.
\n\nPRIYANKA: Yeah, that's a key pillar of what we do and what we're building essentially at Ammi. So, the mental health aspect is one that isn't really talked about, and there's a lot of stigma and shame associated with that, in that early stage especially. And the figures itself are astounding, you know, in the UK itself, it's 1 in 3 mothers experience perinatal mental health issues. In the U.S., I think it's 1 in 5. And 1 in 10 dads experience mental health issues. And there is a certain shame in addressing that. You're meant to be happy, and you're meant to be blessed. And which is true, you are blessed, and, you know, there are moments of happiness. But this is a massive transition that you're going through.
\n\nAnd it's an interesting word you used as well: lonely. So, in our research and interviews with the countless scores of, you know, tens of moms that we have interviewed, the most common word was isolation. It's exactly that. Like, it can feel like a very isolating experience without the village or the community that kids were meant to be raised under and parents were meant to be supported through that. But that is no longer the case in the way that we live today. And that's where there's an opportunity to provide that to parents in a way that works with our modern lives as well.
\n\nSo, for example, what we're doing at Ammi with the mental health particularly is we have developed an evidence-based solution based on acceptance and commitment therapy, which is essentially an incredible sort of modality of therapy that addresses life changes in particular. It helps you figure out your values and your parenting values and helps you set goals and actions in line with those values. So, you feel like you have meaning even though your life is changing, and it still feels significant. And now, of course, you're in charge of a child. So, how do you ensure that you're not losing yourself but equally you're bringing your own values to your parenting? I just found it fascinating.
\n\nAnd we're doing this in a digital way. We're doing this in a way that works for the modern parent. So, it's bite-sized. It's on your phone. You can interact with it in the middle of the night when you're feeding the baby, or you're, you know, sort of up at the odd hours of the morning with your child. That's essentially, like, what we're doing with that particular mental health piece.
\n\nWILL: That is so good because I think even you said the values, like, I think we forget about that easily. And that is everything we do, like, the way we talk to our kids, the way we're raising them, the way we discipline them, what school they're going to. But I think so many times we run out of mental headspace to even talk about those things and to write them down. So, oh, that's so good that you go through that, and you help them discover what their values are because I think sometimes, as parents, you can lose that. Even if you had the values before you had kids, it's easy to lose those values and to remember why you're doing it.
\n\nPRIYANKA: That's right. And, you know, in some cases, you know, you forget, and you don't even know really what your values might be, right? Like, you're just kind of doing things because you think you should. And should is a dangerous word as well because it's sort of, how do you uncover what it is that you really want to do as well? And what's authentic to you as an individual and as a parent?
\n\nSo, for example, I'll give you one, like, structure, right? Like, I, as a parent, can get so hung up on structure as a value. I forget about connection. And, actually, if I had to, like, sort of rank these, you know, connection would be higher on my list, personally. And it's like, why am I not acting on that? And so, what values essentially do is give you this compass in terms of, like, deciding what course of action to take and how you prioritize things.
\n\nAnd, equally, it's also important to note that, you know, values do shift and change. So, we say in this world that it's imagine that you're looking at a globe, and a globe sort of, like, spins. And there may be some values that are topical now, but others that come to fore. So, you've got to, like, hold them lightly as well and acknowledge that they do shift. And all of this may seem sort of a bit indulgent to talk and think about, but, actually, it's really relevant in your day-to-day and also in the way that you live, you work, you parent. It's all very relevant. And I think it's important to bring light to that in the parenting context as well.
\n\nWILL: That's really, really good. So, I wanted to kind of dive deeper into those pillars you're talking about. I know you said mental health was one. What are some of the other pillars that you cover?
\n\nPRIYANKA: You know, the other thing that I've lived through and I've discovered in my, you know, research with my community and with my parents is it's one thing to sort of work on yourself, right? But if the system around you is a bit broken, it's not all in your control. So, what we want to do as well is, like, fill some of those gaps that currently exist in the system.
\n\nSo, for example, you know, here in the UK, since COVID especially, and for a few years before then, you know, we rely on the public healthcare system. And there have been significant challenges with funding there, which means that a lot of the support that was available to birthing parents, to birthing people are just not available anymore. There's no continuity of care, the kind of support you could expect in terms of checks and, you know, seeing the same person, for example, seeing the same midwife. That just doesn't exist anymore.
\n\nSo, what you end up having is a lot of parents who are trying to do their best, but essentially scrambling around looking for solutions, whether that's, like, for sleep, or breastfeeding, or nutrition and taking care of their baby. And that is what essentially results in those feelings of failure.
\n\nSo, what we want to do at Ammi is actually provide that practical expertise as well in the most accessible way. For example, here you could go private. You could see these experts privately, but that's really expensive. And there's nothing really available in the middle, I mean, apart from, like, the free Instagram reels and things. So, what we want to do is be able to provide, again, convenient formats where you can directly access these experts. And what I mean by that is, and what we already do here at Ammi, is we run online workshops with these experts, and these are currently actually free for parents to join.
\n\nSo, we rope in experts who are equally passionate about this. So, they could be experts in pediatrics, or they could be experts in physical and maternal health and wellness, but also infant health and wellness. And they run these sessions for us, and parents can join and essentially interacting live. It happens usually after bedtime, so when parents can attend. And that's one format.
\n\nWhat we also want to build within our digital solution is a way for parents to access these experts on chat, text messaging, as well as book appointments with them, but, like, they may be shorter form appointments, so they're not as expensive. And it's virtual, which, again, cuts out the cost of actually having to see the expert in an office or in a space that is charged, so that helps with some of the cost. Equally, it helps to have experts who can do this on their downtime on chat format. So, that also helps with the cost.
\n\nSo, we're trying to experiment with these different formats that also work from a parent standpoint of convenience. So, you're not taking time off work to see these experts. So, you're not doing that in, like, daytime hours or when your baby's sleeping. So, it's really about convenience and accessibility.
\n\nWILL: That sounds really good. I like the access to the people that know what they're talking about, especially late at night and things like that. That sounds so amazing because there's so many times that, like, I remember whenever, Cruz, he's my oldest, he just wasn't feeding with Katie. And we were like, we don't know why. And the first couple of weeks, I think we went into a doctor's office, like, three or four times just to make sure that he got back up to his birth weight. And it was scary. It was like, are we doing anything wrong? Like, what do we have to do to get him to this place and stuff like that?
\n\nSo, I think sometimes it's just like, "Hey, you're doing the right thing." Like we had one pediatrician...we moved from North Carolina to Florida, and we kind of miss our old pediatrician. Because when we walked in, she was just like, "Hey, he's healthy. I could tell he's healthy, and you're doing all the things right." It was almost like a weight lifted off our backs just to hear like, "Hey. You're doing okay." So, that's good to hear that you're providing that to parents and stuff. You say you're based in London.
\n\nPRIYANKA: Right.
\n\nWILL: And I'm just being honest; I have no idea what the medical situation looks like there. Can you explain what that looks like? Because I know what it looks like in the U.S. But I don't want to be naive and say, "Oh, it's the same." What does it look like when you say someone can't have access to a private provider?
\n\nPRIYANKA: So, it's not that they can't have access. So, historically, in a lot of countries in Europe and here in the UK, we have what is called the National Healthcare System or the NHS. And, essentially, what that means is that your healthcare is covered by the state, which is incredible, actually that, you know, you don't really need to spend on private insurance or private healthcare.
\n\nSo, for most parents, including myself, I gave birth both times through the NHS. What that means is that, you know, you sort of, like, you get into the system. You go to your GP. You don't actually get a pediatrician, which is also something that I wasn't used to in India, but there's no pediatricians. And they have a system that you go through. So, you know, you get assigned a hospital, or you can choose a hospital that's local, but generally, you get assigned to a hospital. And you sort of give birth there under their condition.
\n\nSo, there's not a lot of agency and that, I guess, is the key word because you are under the healthcare system. And essentially, that is the majority. The overwhelming majority of people give birth that way in the UK. I think 12% of the UK has private insurance cover. But equally, even if you have private insurance cover, which means that you can choose your medical care or you can, you know, sort of reimburse, get reimbursed, and things, a lot of them don't actually cover giving birth because it's not a medical condition. So, you have to pay for that privately, and it does cost quite a significant sum of money if you want to go private.
\n\nAnd there's just a few hospitals, actually, in London. There's not that many hospitals outside of London that do this either. So, it's not a very accessible option for most people because it's expensive, and there just aren't enough places that do that. So, in terms of that continuity of care, you have your GP, but, you know, the GP, essentially, has 10 minutes per appointment. So, you don't get a lot of time with your healthcare provider.
\n\nAnd equally, when you have your midwife appointments to the NHS now, you don't see the same person, so, you know, through your scan. So, it's generally someone different. You might get lucky and see the same person. So, it's quite intimidating, I have to say, you know, you don't know really, like, what you can, cannot ask for. It's not very clear what your rights are, even though, you know, they do try their best. But because of the funding shortages now and the way that the system is going, people really are struggling to access care to the level.
\n\nI mean, even, you know, the midwives are leaving the NHS. There's 29 out of 30 midwives leave the NHS after two years of training, which is shocking given, you know, the investment that they make in time. So, it is getting pretty dire, and people's birth stories are just getting quite horrific. And it's become commonplace. It's not unusual anymore, where it used to be quite unusual.
\n\nYou know, there's this perfect storm building right now here in the UK of people who are struggling to get the care they need. And paternity services, in particular, are also suffering quite a lot. And there's this dearth of services, right? And people are starting, like, there are a lot of, like, sort of, like, now smaller companies coming up, trying to, like, fill in this gap through employee benefits, which is one of the routes that we plan to take to market as well.
\n\nBut also, birth coaches is, you have the birthing coaches and doulas. And this is a very small market here in the UK, but it's growing in, like, triple digits year on year. So, it's really interesting to see the private world is stepping up or is trying to step up to the challenges of what the public system isn't able to do anymore. Does that help, or [chuckles] does it sort of give you some context?
\n\nWILL: Yes, that helps tremendously because here, where I'm at, it's mostly employee benefits, and it's more private. We still have so many issues because I was thinking what you're doing. I was like, oh, that's so helpful, even with what we're dealing with, but it sounds like even next level.
\n\nLike, I can't imagine taking my kid to the doctor and seeing a different doctor every single time because sometimes that's part of the helpfulness is they're like, "Oh, we know your kid. We know what they're going through. And, actually, I probably treated them the last time they were in here, so I kind of know." Because even if you have notes, it's tough to understand exactly what you saw. Yeah, I could see the benefits of what you're doing. So, that's amazing.
\n\nPRIYANKA: Yeah, that's right. And equally, like, with the employee benefits now, this is one of the benefits. The top five benefits that employees want from their employers is more family support and more time around that. And we're also seeing in terms of, you know, employee retention, right? And keeping the gender pay gap at the minimum. It's about retaining also your, you know, female employees, especially mothers who tend to leave the workforce after having children, even here in the UK. I know it's actually a lot worse in the U.S., is my understanding.
\n\nBut even here in the UK where you do get more benefits in terms of maternity leave, it's still the cost of childcare. And there are so many other issues about just not having that support system that completely sort of overwhelm the families for one of them to have to drop their career, which is unfortunate. So, I think there is definitely a play here for employers to step up here in the UK and in Europe to this challenge of retaining their employees through benefits such as this.
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\n\nWILL: What are some other ideas that you have? What does success look like in the next six months, five years for you? Where are y'all going?
\n\nPRIYANKA: Well, in the next six months, I think it's really about getting the product to market, like, getting our MVP and product out there. You know, we're doing things in a very scrappy way at the moment. I am, for all practical purposes, a solo founder, and I've been bootstrapping. What we have developed, you know, with my fractional team of clinicians and my CTO is we have a really high-spec figma prototype of what our solution would look like. We have our content ready and the mental health, the evidence-based mental health program ready.
\n\nIt's now about getting that on a platform, and that is going to require some funding. So, I'm in the process of fundraising. So, ideally, in six months, we would have raised enough money to get that MVP out and to get this product in the hands of our customers, our customers being potentially employers. But also, you know, within the Ammi community, I've also been building a community as I've been running these online sessions and creating that side of content as well on the practical expertise side.
\n\nAnd we've got about 500-plus parents around London who have attended our workshops, and most of them are part of this community. And, you know, they're the ones that we've sort of tapped on for our testing. For also the content that we developed, we handed it over to them and, you know, we ran a trial and with some great results. So, that's basically the kind of work that we've done so far over the last year. And, really, in the next six months, it's about getting the product out, raising some money, and, yeah, hopefully, being revenue-generating. So [laughs], it's a lot to look forward to, a lot to do.
\n\nWILL: It sounds like that's that next heel, the next step, so...and it sounds fun. You help parents with their core values. What are some of the core values that you use and that you have that you make decisions through every day?
\n\nPRIYANKA: It's about authenticity. That's the guiding principle. It's about being authentic to our mission, being authentic to what the customer wants, you know, first and foremost, and authentic to what my vision for Ammi is, which is to be that co-pilot in those early years. And how that sort of helps me is even when I look at funding, and I look at the type of funding or who we, you know, want money from, I know that, you know, sort of, we can't really dictate that at this point. But I really don't want there to be a risk of mission drift from what we're trying to do here. I've lived that life before where I've done things to just sort of tick the boxes.
\n\nAnd I do genuinely think that there is a commercial opportunity here as well within the mission that we're trying to achieve because, you know, from employers to parents themselves, they're spending money on this now, and, you know, the tide is turning. So, for me, authenticity is number one. And, generally, like, you know, when I am faced with any decisions, whether that's a product-based decision, I'm like, right, like, what's more important to our community? What do they really want?
\n\nSo, it's all about going back there and seeing, like, what is going to give them most value? It's about understanding when we look at the development or getting team members on board, it's, you know, who believes in the mission? So, that generally is what guides me in my day-to-day decision-making process.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I really like that because I feel like, especially with social media, there's a lack of authenticity sometimes. Sometimes, I feel like society wants you to be this superhero as parents. And sometimes it's like, I think I have some of my best moments with my kids and some of my worst times with my kids. Just, like, I think sometimes just being honest about this is where you're at as a parent. You're doing okay. Maybe you need to tweak this, this, and this, but I think that's a good thing to go by. So, I really like that you said that.
\n\nPRIYANKA: Well, there's lots of ways to make money. Entrepreneurship that might be one of the things you do to make money, right? But it's not the easiest way. You know, I gave up my corporate career for a good reason, and I want to remember that. It was to sort of achieve big things but being authentic. So, that's really, like, where we are at.
\n\nWILL: I love it. Love it. I usually ask this question around careers, but I'm going to ask it for parenting. So, if you can go back in time and give yourself advice on your parenting, what advice would you give?
\n\nPRIYANKA: I would just say chill out [laughs]. You know, I think I was so hard on myself, right? So, for example, like, you know, when my son was born, my firstborn, I was so hell-bent on breastfeeding and, like, every bottle I had to give him a bottle day three because, you know, like you, like, my son as well he lost a lot of his weight, and we got worried. And he wasn't feeding. I didn't have a supply. So, it was so hard, and I felt like I failed. Every time he didn't sleep through the night, it felt like I failed.
\n\nSo, I sort of took responsibility for all of it. Like, you know, this is, you know, that I'm failing this next project. But I wish I could just, you know, sort of go back and be like, this is all part of the journey. And this is a, you know, sort of a small person that you're trying to raise, and they have different rhythms, and it doesn't go by the book. So, those are some of the things I would tell myself is just to be kinder.
\n\nAnd, you know, actually, that's another thing that we do at Ammi is, like, just that self-compassion in our program about, like, just being easy on yourself for those years. I had to sort of come back and, you know, as you said, bounce back. And, again, all of that there's just incredible amounts of pressure on parents. Yeah, I think I would just tell myself to be kinder and be patient through all of that and things will work out.
\n\nWILL: I appreciate you saying that because I needed to hear that, to be honest with you. [laughter] Yeah. Just, I think, my kids are 4, 3, and almost 2, so, like, 22 months. So, "It's going to be okay, and chill out" is really good advice for me to hear at this time. So, I appreciate you saying that.
\n\nPRIYANKA: Yeah. And it will be, you know, I mean, I know it's hard. Like, it's as they say, the days are, you know, long, and the years are short. But when you're in it and when you haven't slept in a week [laughs], it can feel like it's just dragging on forever [laughter]. And that's one of the hardest challenges, right? Sleep deprivation. So, sleep workshops are the most popular, as you would expect. You know, we get sleep experts to come in and talk about it. And, generally, you know, what's really interesting is, like, through a lot of these workshops, what they all end up really saying is that everything is normal [laughs].
\n\nSo, it's not like one sort of thing is normal. And just having an expert say that to you and say that to our parents who join these calls is just incredibly relieving for them that they're not, you know, in some race and competition to see whose kid has slept through the night or, like, what's, you know, what I'm doing wrong, whose kid is eating the most variety of fruit and veg, you know, that's not what it's about. It's all normal. And they just go away and sleep well that night, right? Like, after a workshop because they're like, this is great. I'm doing it okay [laughter].
\n\nWILL: Well, once again, that's good to hear because, like, last night, I think I got five hours of sleep because of my son.
\n\nPRIYANKA: Ooh.
\n\nWILL: Thank you for saying even that because, like, you question yourself a lot. Like, I know I do. I question myself a lot. Am I doing the right thing? Is this what I'm supposed to be doing? So yeah, that's really good to hear.
\n\nPRIYANKA: Yeah, it's a common ailment that [laughs], you know, sort of goes around the parents of our generation, I think.
\n\nWILL: Yes, definitely. What are some of the biggest hurdles you see coming up?
\n\nPRIYANKA: As a startup, there's hurdles every day. You know, there's things sort of that we're...challenges that we're facing, but really in, you know, in the current climate, I think it's about securing the right kind of funding and the amount of funding we think we need in order to get the product developed and go to market. That is a big hurdle. I have, you know, sort of some plan B set up in terms of how we could, you know, sort of test our solution in other ways and in scrappier ways. And we're kind of working on that alongside it.
\n\nBut it's a difficult environment for startups right now, as you might have been aware. And especially with healthcare and wellness, in particular, it's been pretty hard over the last couple of years. The problem hasn't gone away, you know, so mental health and, you know, sort of wellness was a thing two, three years ago. And then, you know, it's all shifted to climate and sort of climate tech, which is great because that is also a problem, but equally, we haven't fixed any of this yet. And there are, I think, opportunities to do things in this area that might be missed if the funding doesn't come along. So, funding is definitely one thing.
\n\nYeah, in terms of hurdles, if we do get the funding, it's about making sure that we get the right team together. As I said, I'm a solo founder, so that in itself is a hurdle every day as I try to sort of juggle the bootstrapping and the endless to-do list that I have with Ammi. So, I'd say, yeah, I think those are really the big things that I'm focusing on.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I love that. And yeah, I agree. Funding is probably, yeah, that's a big hurdle. And as a parent, it's much needed just to hear those things. So, I hope it all works out and it goes well.
\n\nPRIYANKA: Yeah, no, thank you. And sort of showing that it's a need, but also, it's a commercial opportunity, right? Like, parents now in the UK, the spending that parents do in that first couple of years that their baby is born has skyrocketed. And more and more, you know, as we see, like, parents coming into sort of this journey now, are aware of the impact that poor sort of mental state can have on their children. It's not like how it was when I gave birth. Like, I think a lot of parents now are well aware, and they want to sort of be fit, not just physically, but also mentally for this journey.
\n\nSo, there's a lot of trends that are in our favor. So, you know, when it comes to things like spending on services rather than goods, you know, that's going up, the awareness around mental health. Unfortunately, the incidence of poor mental health is also going up. And so, people are coming into this, and there are multiple challenges, you know, that contribute to that as well. And the risk factors, unfortunately, is another thing.
\n\nSo, for example, a lot more parents are getting into parenting after having a difficult fertility journey or having experienced loss or, you know, neonatal ICU moments. So, all of that is really stressful to deal with. And then, you know, then have this child to sort of look after when you're barely healing yourself. So, I think people are recognizing the need for this, certainly, the parents are. It's about making sure that investors see that now as well as a commercial opportunity.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I really like that. Yeah, I totally agree with that. What motivated you to start your company? Like, was it just the experience that you went through when you were raising your kids, or was there a certain thing that motivated you? Because, like you said, entrepreneurship is not easy at all. So, what motivated you to want to start your company?
\n\nPRIYANKA: You know, as I mentioned, I was, you know, sort of on that sort of corporate ladder for many years. And while I was, you know, even doing that, I think there was a certain restlessness inside of me. Am I living my most authentic life? Like, is this how I want to spend my days? You know, and I have a family now. Is this what I want to be doing when I'm not at home? And that was sort of bothering me.
\n\nAnd then, you know, 2020 happened, right? And I'm a statistic of the great resignation, but, like, it really was triggered by some significant life events. So, very, very early, like, almost before any of the lockdowns and start of the pandemic, in February 2020, my husband got really sick with COVID and was on a ventilator for ten days. They didn't even know really what COVID was at the time. He was one of the first, like, maybe 20, 30 patients in London in hospital. And yeah, we almost lost him. So, that was big.
\n\nAnd, you know, at the time, I was dealing with a high-pressure job and very young kids at home, you know, sort of at the end of my sort of mental space as well. And I took some time off and just decided then, like, I think I need to sort of pivot now. I need to, you know, life is too short. So, I resigned from my role a few months in and decided to focus on more meaningful ventures. And that's when I stumbled upon ZINC venture capital. So, ZINC venture capital is an incubator accelerator program here in the UK. And they invest in mission-based businesses, and their '21, '22 cohort was actually, as I said earlier, you know, on children and young people's mental health.
\n\nAnd within that, you know, while I was researching it, I think it just brought up these memories of being, like, in that early phase of parenting. And I started meeting a lot of moms who were in that phase and just realizing that these are, you know, capable women who are at their most vulnerable physically and emotionally at this time, and they're being let down. You know, these families are being let down by the system, by the environment that we live in, and, essentially, feeling like they're failing. And I recognized that in my own experiences. I had a lot of anxiety, as I, you know, sort of mentioned with my firstborn. And I think that did impact.
\n\nAnd, to date, we're sort of probably dealing with the impact of the way that we were as parents, you know, with him. And I just wish I had done things differently or I knew different. And that's really, like, what has motivated me. And I see, you know, these moms, like, looking for solutions and these dads as well, like, sort of more aware of these issues, but they don't have the support. So, that's really, like, where Ammi was born was, you know, during my time there.
\n\nAnd it was also a process of, like, finding my own personal mission, you know. And I feel deeply motivated by this, by solving the problem really. I'm not so married to the solutions. It really, for me, is about the problem and making sure that we get the right solution in people's hands.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I really like that. I think 2020 was rough for everyone. I think it was really, really rough. It was rough for me. Like you said, it was rough for you. But I'm hoping that we're going to start seeing...because someone was telling me about trends that happen. Like, we usually go through a really rough time, but then that's usually when we get creative solutions afterwards.
\n\nAnd so, I'm hoping that's what we're seeing, you know, with your company and many others, which is those creative solutions from 2020. All that that happened I'm hoping that we're starting to see more and more creative solutions. So, I'm so glad that you're starting this and that you stepped out and that you're doing this because I think it's going to benefit a lot of people.
\n\nPRIYANKA: Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. It's good to hear as well [laughs].
\n\nWILL: Yeah, definitely. So, clearly, there's a need for your solution. So, what are you hearing from the investor side, and what does that look like?
\n\nPRIYANKA: It's interesting. With things that have to do with wellness or sort of parenting, and, you know, as we now call it, like, femtech, there seems to be this perception that it's a crowded space. I can see why people say that, you know, maybe there is this sort of influx of, you know, your Instagram feed full of, like, momfluencers or messages that are coming across on parenting and things.
\n\nBut if you really ask parents if they feel supported and they have access to what they need, they're still struggling. And they're still finding it difficult because every parent's journey is a little different, and they need that direct access. That's still quite hard to get. Like, you could do your research, but equally, that takes up time.
\n\nSo, I think what we're doing differently at Ammi and what we're really doing here is to make that access to experts as easy, convenient, and affordable as possible, and I think there's definitely a space and market for that. Making that access sort of affordable and easy but equally, like, having that support, having the coaching support and continuity of care, which doesn't exist anymore, and not a lot of people are doing that yet.
\n\nThere are a few startups that are sort of entering the space. In the U.S. I think, actually, there's been more proof of this concept working with the incredible work that Maven Clinic has done, for example. But in the UK, it's still pretty niche, and in Europe. So, I think there's a potential for a big player to come in and take up that space. And that's what I'd like investors to know is that: the commercial opportunity is not to be understated here in terms of what that is.
\n\nThere's, you know, 600,000 new parents in the UK every year. And if you think about it, if even 10% of those are spending what is the average on the baby's first few years of life, which is anywhere between 8,000 to 15,000 in that year, a percentage of that does go to services. That already is a huge annual market that one could be looking at entering, sorting, and de-fragmentizing or...well, that's not the word but organizing because it is a very, very fragmented space. And there is opportunity to make that a lot easier for parents. That's kind of the message I'd like to get out there.
\n\nWILL: As a parent, I'm glad you said that because one thing I keep hearing you saying is experts, experts. I like that your platform has experts, and I can trust their info. Because I get some info from social media, but sometimes I'm like, can I trust this information? Is it real? Is it AI? Whatever it is. So, I like yours that it's like, we've added these solutions, and they're experts. So, that's, yeah, I can see how that's so beneficial.
\n\nPRIYANKA: Right. And that is what most parents tell us is: trust is such a big factor. Parenting is, like, one of the biggest things that you'll do in your life, you know, and trust is essential because you don't just want to be trying things at random or, you know, sort of sometimes you do that, but it's not ideal. And most parents will pay for that, too, you know, they will pay to talk to an expert. They will pay for that. They might not pay for the free information that comes in their way.
\n\nAnd this is why, like, content is one part of a strategy, but it's not core to it. It really is about creating those personalized journeys. And maybe this is another conversation as well for next time, but it really is about, like, scaling that. And that's really interesting in how we plan to do that as well. How do you scale personalized solutions? And I think that could be really interesting.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I could definitely see if you could figure that out, wow, it opens up so many avenues for you. So, that's amazing. So, with your solutions, how have you validated that this is what your users want and this is what they need so that they're successful?
\n\nPRIYANKA: We've been doing a process of validation right from the beginning. You know, I've run ideation sessions—co-creation sessions. I've done maybe 20-plus interviews with mums and run surveys with over a hundred parents to really understand what it is they need. So, we developed, like, the version one of our prototype based on the top problems that parents told us they were having, the kind of ways in which they wanted to access help.
\n\nSo that's where, you know, sort of the creative ideas around text chat and workshops and ways to make it more accessible came about, even things like having all of that on your phone because most parents will be on their phone in those early years and not so much on desktop. So, that was another thing that informed all of that. So, we did two rounds of testing, and then we did another third round as well to ensure that we were, like, tweaking our prototype to really make it exciting for parents.
\n\nAnd once we developed our mental health or sort of a mental health coaching platform, we also ran that on a two-week trial with a bunch of Ammi sort of community members. And the results were, like, really reassuring and almost overwhelming to some extent with, you know, some moms saying that, you know, doing some of those exercises help them sleep at night. And some others said, "Oh, wow, these sections really speak to me on values and goal setting." Some others said that "You know, it really helped me provide that moment of calm and stop my ruminating thoughts." And all of this is really encouraging to hear from people directly as they've used your content and your platform.
\n\nSo, that's sort of, like, the validation we've been through. And I think it's always going to be a process. You know, even when we come out with version 1, we're going to learn what people are interacting with most. And, you know, I'm really interested to see how they react and their behaviors around the text chat particularly. So yeah, it's one of the best parts about building something is that interaction with your users and community. Like I said, it's 500-plus moms who are part of this community now and who've been informing the solution at every step of the way.
\n\nWILL: I love that you took that step to validate it. Priyanka, thank you for joining me today.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for the episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
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Sponsored By:
In this episode, host Victoria Guido interviews Chris Pallatroni, creator of The Standard, a platform dedicated to sharing self-care stories. Chris shares how his interests in gardening and mental wellness fueled the inception of The Standard, which was initially intended to be a landscaping venture.
\n\nHe delves into the hurdles faced while developing the platform, highlighting the struggle for product-market fit and the critical role of integrating technology with human connection to enable meaningful support and interactions.
\n\nChris underscores storytelling's pivotal role in enhancing mental health, advocating for the sharing of personal triumphs over adversity to motivate and assist others facing similar challenges. He envisions The Standard as a vast collection of genuine, relatable self-care narratives aimed at reducing the feeling of isolation among individuals. Through inviting users to share their experiences, Chris seeks to leverage human connections to cultivate a community supportive of mental health and personal development.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Chris Pallatroni, Founder of The Standard, a storytelling platform where people share stories about self-care. Chris, thank you for joining me.
\n\nCHRIS: Yeah. Thanks for having me on. It's a pleasure.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. So, before we dive into all about The Standard, why don't you just tell me a little bit about what's going on in your world outside of work? Anything fun? Anything exciting?
\n\nCHRIS: Yeah. Well, first of all, I've got two boys, so for anybody that's listening that has kids, I mean, let's be honest, your life is completely chaotic. So, I've got two boys, one's almost 12, one's almost 10, so all boy, all the time. That's just another way of saying our house is really loud, and there's just tons of stuff happening, sports, whatnot. I also have a wife, a beautiful wife. She's my better half. I've been with her for 24 years. So, between that, I got three cats, not that they take a lot of energy, but there's just a lot of love in our household. So, that's sort of, like, the family side of things.
\n\nAnd then I'm an avid gardener. I'm really big into mental health and wellness, which, as we start to talk about The Standard, will become really evident. So, I'm all about just doing the things that you need to do to take care of yourself, so lots of running, lots of working out, lots of just being in nature. I know you're a surfer, so, I mean, let's be honest, water is amazing. So yeah, anything I can do to, like, duck out into nature and spend time with my family. Honestly, there's just not enough time in the day.
\n\nVICTORIA: What is growing in your garden that you're the most proud of?
\n\nCHRIS: You don't want to get me started on gardening. So, before I started The Standard, honestly, I thought I was going to be a landscaper, and the name of The Standard actually was going to be applied to a landscaping company. So, I am a professional landscaper. I took all the classes: soil, science, irrigation. I got the degree in design and maintenance.
\n\nI have a tiny, little property, but I have about 700 plants on my property. So, I know everything on the roses, and grass, and camellias. I mean, I'm that guy that, like, likes to see...nature is just amazing, first of all. And it also has very therapeutic qualities when we start to talk about mental health and well-being, birdsong, water, greenery, sunsets, sunrises.
\n\nI'm also developing a piece of land. We have a house we're building, and it's three acres. So, I'm in the process of building out, like, what I'm going to just describe as the most amazing garden anybody's ever seen. I really take a lot of pride in gardening. I'm very disciplined and very specific on how things grow. And so, I've got a property that's about an acre and a half I'm planting, which will probably have, like, 20,000 plants on it when it's all said and done.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, you have 700 plants now, and you plan to have 20,000, so you don't want to choose favorites. There's nothing...you got to, like, spread the love around.
\n\nCHRIS: God, it's like saying, which child do you love more? I mean, right now on my property the ones that currently stand out is I've got a couple of these Eden Rose bushes that I've trained to climb up. I've got three of them. The one in the front of my house is about 20 feet tall at this point. So, I've trained it to grow up the entire side of my house. In full bloom, it will have about 300 roses on it in full bloom. And so, an Eden Rose has about a 220 petal count. So, it's a very dense rose. They are a pain in the butt to prune, but they're pretty spectacular in full bloom.
\n\nVICTORIA: That sounds really beautiful. And I hope you send me some pictures [laughs] after the show. Send them to me in an email because I want to see...I love growing, but I do not have a green thumb. I usually try to pick what is most likely to survive [laughs].
\n\nCHRIS: That's my wife's strategy. She's like, what can I not kill? And, surprisingly, even with, like, cactuses, she still finds a way to kill some of them, so...[laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Some people have it, some people don't. I do agree on the therapeutic side. And I'm curious, too, having this background, how did you go from landscape and this interest in growing things to starting businesses?
\n\nCHRIS: Yeah, you know, the landscaping actually picked up at a much later stage. So, if I rewind my entrepreneurial journey, it started in 2004. I got mixed up with some guys as I was finishing up my degree in economics and finance. I was like, look, I don't have, like, a 4.9 GPA, so I'll probably need some sort of internship that starts to separate me. Anyways, got mixed up with some guys that were running a franchise painting company, took part in that, really loved the idea of seeing something grow. Did really well on that internship. You really ran, like, a mini-painting division of this larger company, so knocking on doors, producing painting jobs, so forth, and so on.
\n\nAt the end of that, which was a really intense about a year internship, they said, "Hey, we're going to build this marketing company. Do you want in?" And I was like, "Let's do it." And so, what I really wanted...and that was, like, my first major let's start a business. And I loved the idea of taking something from an idea to...the idea was, could we sell it for a hundred million dollars? So, the money was attributed to it, but I wanted to see something grow.
\n\nAnd so, we went at it for, like, 15 years. We did end up selling, not at a hundred. We sold it for, like, 70 million. But we did really well. It was a bootstrapped company. We built this massive national marketing company. It's sort of like match.com for contracting. You can take a consumer that's interested in remodeling their house and connect them to a local contractor. And we built that all from, like, a bedroom with plyboard and literally rotary phones all the way to a national brand that's...I think we became the second largest in the space.
\n\nIt's still the company I still work for. As I build this other business, I'm still working at that. We're pushing 250 million now. But the concept of building something and selling it I thought was really intriguing. Landscaping was just a hobby that came in much later in my life. Thought that was going to be my next venture. I decided to pivot after getting all of the education, mainly because I wanted to build something that had application for everybody.
\n\nAnd what I started to realize in landscaping is the average consumer doesn't have $50,000 to dump on their backyard. And what I didn't want to do is work for rich people and wineries. I really wanted to build a magical, little space for the average person. But I also started to realize most people don't have that type of income, which then pivoted me to The Standard, which I thought had more universal application.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really interesting. So, I love that because there's, like, a common phrase you hear about tech where every company is also a tech company now. So, it's really interesting to hear and, like, to hear about you think about growth and how it applies to businesses and that care that you put into it as well.
\n\nCHRIS: Yeah. I mean, I think everything is tech-related in a lot of different ways. I don't know, I think at least with The Standard, like, there's such a human element, and I still need to figure out so much about it. But as tech-driven as we get, we're still a social species. We still want human connection. And maybe at one point far off in the future, like, a robot can replace some of that, but the human connection, the human story, the ability to feel connected and not isolated or alone has very profound impacts on people's mental health and well-being.
\n\nAnd so, as much as I still have to figure out, I try not to over-index on too much tech and try to keep things very authentic and organic. Because I think when you do that right and you can do the matching of a consumer that's interested in a specific story with someone that has gone through that experience who can share that story, that connection is very profound. So, I do think it is a blend of tech, but I try not to dive too deep into the tech side of things.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. It's more that you need technology as a tool to solve the problems of the people that you're trying to work for or trying to, like, provide services for. So, it sounds like, to recap a little bit, you were part of growing this company. You were able to build it and sell it for 70 million. And then, you decided to, like, keep doing it. You're like, that was fun. Let's do another one [laughs].
\n\nCHRIS: Well, I mean, in all honesty, I think some of the challenges become when you're starting a company, which is incredibly invigorating. But if you're starting a company in an area that you don't have expertise...so, although I know a lot about mental health and wellness, I've read hundreds of books. I interviewed lots of people. I hired you guys to do some market research for me. So, I'm not naive, but I've never built a platform that does what I'm trying to do. And in all my research, I haven't exactly even seen a platform that does exactly what I do. So, it's hard to have that perfect measuring stick.
\n\nAnd so, you know, what I've realized along the journey is it's really easy to spend money, and it's really hard to find product-market fit. And so, what I've chosen to do, and maybe it takes a little bit longer to get there, is rather than, like, go all in, quit my day job, and really just financially stress the crap out of myself and my wife, I still have a day job. I get paid exceptionally well. I'm very senior in my company. It's not overly stressful, but it also pays the bills.
\n\nAnd so, I think one of the things I've learned about being an entrepreneur is you've got to enjoy the journey. And so, I do enjoy what I still do, and it serves a very valuable purpose. And it gives me still the freedom to play around with The Standard, to still do the things that I want to do. Sure, I can't burn as many hours on it, but at the same time, if I quit this job, my runway would highly compress, and maybe that's good for some people, but there's still just so much I have to figure out. So, I need the runway.
\n\nVICTORIA: I can relate to that, and I think that's a really common story for people who have a great idea, and they need the time and space to find the right product-market fit to move forward and then make the big investment with your time and all the, like, other financial investments you would need. So, maybe to go back to the beginning a little bit, what led you to think of starting The Standard in the first place?
\n\nCHRIS: So, I'll try to say this as succinctly as possible. Life is really hard for a lot of people, you know, and you can dice it up in a lot of different ways, whether we're talking about, like, you know, global events that happen, be it war, be it COVID, you know, anything on a very large level. But even on an individual level, like, we lose people. People are dealing with weight issues, how to eat healthy, stress. There's a lot.
\n\nWhen we start to think about the concept of mental health and well-being, it is overwhelming. And I'm built for discipline. I've always been that way. I'm incredibly disciplined as a person. Some things may feel like they come a little easier to me, but I also look at like, oh my God, I got to worry about like, how do I sleep right? And how do I eat right? And then, how do I exercise? And then you got to be grateful for stuff, and then have social friends, and then be with your family. Like, I mean, adulting is tough; let's just be honest.
\n\nAnd so, a lot of the concept behind The Standard was I have the freedom to explore a lot of this stuff. I've had the luxury to read hundreds of books and, meet so many people, and really invest a lot as to educating myself about these various topics that I think are important.
\n\nI also have the luxury to deploy a lot of these strategies in my personal life, and it's a privilege to be able to do that. And a lot of people don't have that. They're struggling. They're working multiple jobs. They don't have a lot of time in the day. Maybe they're commuting. They don't have the luxury to take care of themselves. And that's just the Western world. Do you want to, like, dive into the Global South or start to look at, like, Ukraine or stuff like that? Like, there's just people, like, literally just trying to make it through the day, let alone be grateful about something or eat healthy.
\n\nAnd so, I started to realize, like, God, if I think this is even remotely challenging, what does somebody else feel about their mental health and well-being? And so, that was sort of the jump off of, like, it is tough to maintain your sanity. It is tough to do all of those things. Is there a way that I can make that process easier for people? And so, that just led to a rabbit hole that started about six months before COVID hit, so late 2019. I spent a lot of time researching.
\n\nI read several hundred books on habit formation and neuroscience and all these different topics. And, I mean, to the point where I was reading every morning, typing notes of these books, mind mapping this out, looking for the connection of all these topics. And what I was trying to figure out is what is the least amount of information somebody needs to know to have the most profound effect on their life? And what I came to as a conclusion was most people will not read a book or listen to a podcast. Some will, but the average person won't. They don't have the time, the desire.
\n\nBut everybody's got a problem they're trying to solve, whatever that problem may be, and if you could take somebody that has a problem and you could find a way to connect them to somebody who had that problem but is a little farther down the road. So, let's pick something pretty simple, like weight loss. I've interviewed a lot of people on my podcast this year that have lost 100 pounds, which is a really big number. And even if it's not a hundred pounds, you want to lose 20 pounds. The point being is that weight is a big issue for a lot of people. It affects their self-esteem, their body image. There's a number of things that, like, impact that.
\n\nBut if you could connect somebody who's really struggling to lose weight with somebody who has lost that weight and could share their story, how they felt, the habits they've deployed, and most importantly, they could talk about that experience, what would happen is the person that's been through that issue, if you will, would use a set of language that would be very specific and would resonate with the person that hasn't overcome the challenge yet.
\n\nAnd this is what's so unique about it is: I don't know what that particular challenge is like. I've never had that particular issue. I won't know the language to use. But if you've ever talked to somebody who has lost a significant amount of weight, they will use words, and they will give examples that only somebody who's struggling with it would resonate with.
\n\nI remember doing an interview, and a lady was like, "God, you know," she's like, "I was so overweight. I would be very thoughtful of getting on the ground because I wasn't sure if I could get back up. Or I'd be very thoughtful of the chair I sat on in case it broke." I mean, these are the things I'm like, unless you're overweight, you don't think about that.
\n\nAnd so, my idea was like, could I take somebody who's overcome some of these problems, get them to share some of those self-care stories that they used to solve whatever that problem was, and then create a mechanism in which somebody who was struggling with, in this case, weight loss, that they could type in, "How do you deal with weight loss?" and they could connect to other people that have developed the habits and the mindsets that helped them through that? And weight loss is just an example, but you could pick anything from racism to depression to domestic violence and so forth and so on.
\n\nThe caveat there is you need a mechanism to connect the person that's overcome the challenge with the person that's still going through it. So, you got to get a lot of people on the other side of the tunnel to share their story and to know that they're doing it maybe not to monetize it but to do it for the benefit of other people who were like them at one point.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, if I can try to summarize what you meant when you said, like, what's the least amount of information to have the most profound realization on how to impact your life? It sounds like what you discovered was that it's human connection to other humans who have had the same experience and survived it and overcome those challenges.
\n\nCHRIS: Yeah, without a doubt, because I think when you're struggling with an issue, you tend to think you're alone. You tend to think the way you're thinking about your addiction to something, or your weight loss, or your body image; you tend to think, oh, this is just me. And what motivates somebody who's in that mindset is to hear somebody else who can use a certain set of language that helps them realize, wow, I'm not alone. There is other people that have gone through this particular issue. And what that does is it starts to open up the door, open up their mind in a way of, wow, change can happen.
\n\nNow, you can't copy other people's habits. It doesn't exactly work that way. But what it can do is at least give you a starting place to say, "Here's somebody who I feel is like me in some ways, and they've made it to the other side. Here's some of the habits, and the mindsets, routines that they specifically have that have helped them get through this. Maybe I can try some of those on, at least as a starting place, and then I can modify them as time..."
\n\nSo, it really starts with the mindset and the clarity of I'm not alone and maybe there is some hope. And I think that's a really big thing when you're talking about some of these very large issues that people run into on a day-to-day basis.
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\n\nVICTORIA: So, what lessons did you learn from your previous experience in starting a business are you taking into what you're doing now with The Standard?
\n\nCHRIS: Oh my God, so many lessons. Well, I mean, here's the brutal reality is: I've chosen to go in an industry that doesn't exactly have carryover effects. I was in marketing, dealing with homeowners and contractors, and now I'm diving into mental health. So, I, unfortunately, don't get to, like, flex my black book and, you know, voilà myself into, like, success here. I've also chosen to go from marketing and generating leads to now I'm trying to build a platform, which apparently is one of the hardest things you could possibly do.
\n\nBut here's one that I really do take away, and it's probably not in the way that you actually intended that I would answer, but here's the biggest lesson I've taken away. When I built the first company, Jason Polka was our CEO, and Gabe Luna...it was three of us that really started it. So much of that entire journey...especially after the first five years of building the infrastructure, and you started to move out of the basement, and you had a corporate office, and, you know, you felt a little bit more legit. You started generating 10, 20 million dollars a year in revenue.
\n\nI'd say from year, like, five through the time we sold it, I just wanted to sell the company. So much of the conversation became around, when is this going to happen? And it was always a grind. I mean, building a company is just tough. I mean, maybe some people, it works out, and everything's great, but it's really tough. A lot of businesses don't succeed, and we were very lucky that we did.
\n\nBut so much of it was me just trying to check off that final box of, like, I just want them to say, "We did it." It wasn't even really the payout. It was, just, I want to know that we were capable of doing it. And what happened is there was so much of that ten years where I wasn't enjoying the journey. I mean, don't get me wrong, like, I love the people I worked with, some great friendships. But it was so much of like, how do we fast forward this a little bit?
\n\nAnd so, once the day happened that it was sold, and especially as I started to embark on this other side, I said, look, I'm now in my, like, early 40s. Like, that can't happen again. I mean, maybe I never sell the next company. Maybe I'm working on this for a decade or two decades. I need to enjoy the journey. Like, my kids are young once. Like, I've got this wife. I've got this life. Like, selling a company is great, but it is not the defining thing of your life. Like, you still need to live your life.
\n\nAnd so, the big lesson I took away from it is how do I enjoy the journey as I go through this process? And I'll be honest, that is a big mind f, if you will, like, it's not an easy thing to do because as entrepreneurs, you're very much like, well, what metrics, and what's the next milestone? And dah, dah, dah, dah. And, like, dude, it's brutal. So, I'm really trying to, like, enjoy the process, even if the process is a struggle.
\n\nVICTORIA: What are your top strategies for enjoying the process or making it fun?
\n\nCHRIS: Well, one, take care of your mental health and your well-being [laughs], whatever that is for you. I do a lot of weekly planning. And so, when I do my weekly planning, it literally will come down to I look at my schedule, and I make sure I get my runs in there. I get my gardening in there. I get my time at my kids' events, my time with my wife. I get my workouts. I make sure I eat healthy. I do everything that I can to take as good of care of Chris as I possibly can. You know, a cliché is to say, but you can't pour from an empty cup.
\n\nSo, if you want to give your best to your company, your family, your friends, your community, whatever, like, you really do need to prioritize yourself. Self-care is not selfish. So, that's the number one thing I do.
\n\nI'd say the other thing, too, is how do you deal with anxiety? How do you deal with this constant...and anxiety is one of the most pronounced mental health issues on our planet. 350 million people deal with this annually. It's easy to start to think about the future and to fill in the gap with the worst-case scenario, to get anxiety of, like, oh my God, I didn't do this, or I shouldn't be doing that.
\n\nAnd so, learning to just take a deep breath, do the best job you can. Let your intuition carry you, and not be so judgmental when it doesn't turn out the way you want it. Like, I wish I had much more success at this stage of the business than I do. But I'm still making forward progress, and I'm enjoying the process, and I'm learning stuff. And could I be faster? Yeah, probably.
\n\nSo, I try not to over-index on what I'm not doing, and I try to just take the best next step possible and just trust it will all work out but be okay if it didn't. That's easier said than done sometimes, especially if you've never had success. I think part of it is the fact that I've been successful in selling a company. I mean, in a lot of ways, like, hey, I know I could. Maybe I can do it again. Maybe I can't. And I'm okay either way that that pans out.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think that part about being okay if it doesn't is so important. And tying that together to what you mentioned earlier about being financially stable enough to invest in what you want to invest in, like, it's a really big, important thing for founders. And I think if you're constantly worried about how am I going to pay myself? How am I going to pay my bills? You're not really going to be focused on building the best product, or actually solving the problem, or being willing to pivot in a way you need to to create something that is going to last and be really impactful for people. I think that's really interesting.
\n\nIn climbing, there's some...it teaches me that because I have some projects that probably I might never complete them [laughs]. They're really hard. The people who actually create videos of themselves climbing it are, like, six feet tall, and I'm never going to be six feet tall, but I just try to enjoy the hike up to the climb. I enjoy going up to this little boulder and just, like, touching it and feeling it.
\n\nSo, I'm curious if you could say more about how are you thinking The Standard will solve that problem and, like, create that connection for you and, like, solve your anxieties as, like, a founder about, is this company working well enough? Do you connect people in that same way as well?
\n\nCHRIS: There's a famous quote that says, "It takes seven years to become an overnight success." I mean, maybe in some ways, it even takes longer, depending on what you're trying to build here. And, I don't know, success is somewhat arbitrary. You know, like, I remember when I got the call that we sold our first company, which was the moment I was waiting for, I remember getting the call. I was driving home. "Hey, we did this. Here's your payout." I did not feel any more successful in that moment. Like, it wasn't like that checked off the box. I'm like, well, there I go. I'm super successful now. It was like, now what?
\n\nYou know, my kids didn't, like, hug me and be like, "Oh, successful dad sold companies," you know, it wasn't. It was like, you know, life continued. And it was just such a powerful reminder of so much of the significance that we put on things is like, it's us. Like, I don't want to say nobody else cares because, you know, a lot of entrepreneurs are trying to build products that, you know, change the world, make a meaningful difference to people's lives. And we do put a disproportionate burden on ourselves of, like, God, if I don't do this, maybe it just doesn't get done.
\n\nI think, for me, when I'm building The Standard, I try to, one, I always try to think of like, enjoy the journey. Am I doing things that I enjoy doing? So, we started a podcast last year. I mean, The Standard, like, so just a quick on timeframe, I mean, I spent a year building it. So, I did all this research for about two years, including hiring you guys.
\n\nI got to the place where I'm like, okay, I think I got a concept, not product-market fit. I just got a concept, and I want to start to build that out into reality. Hired a designer, really great designer. Found him, you know, cold-called him, got him involved. Took us six months to build literally, like, a wireframe of like, it could look like this.
\n\nAnd then I was like, okay, great. Now I'm going to go sell that to a VC and, like, convince him to give me millions of dollars. And I was like, and then I quickly realized, like, you absolutely have nothing at the moment, Chris. Like, there's nothing here. There's, like, you think you got something, like, you've got nothing. Like, there's no users. I mean, you got literally nothing here. And I was like, okay, great, so nobody's going to give me any money for this. Where do I go from here?
\n\nAnd then I was like, well, I need to build something to see how people interact with it. So, then I decided to go through a no-code platform when I spent ten months teaching myself how to build something using no-code. So, I used bubble.io, which was a really great product. Now, that was a big mind cluster right there because I'm not a coder. I'm sort of the visionary of a product. That's, like, I'm not the technical expertise. But I didn't have a CTO. So, I was like, I need to solve for this problem. So, I taught myself how to use this.
\n\nThat was incredibly painful but incredibly rewarding because I know how to build something. So, then I built this, and then we beta test the launch, but now I'm like, okay, [inaudible 24:46] I built this, but I don't even know if it's a product-market fit. I don't even know if I built the right thing yet. Now, I got to see people who will interact with it. And then I was like, well, then how do you even get this thing to be exposed to the world? Like, it is just every step along the way; there's some mountain that seems insurmountable. You find a way to get to the peak, and then you realize there's a larger mountain that's [laughs] right behind it.
\n\nAnd so, then it led down to, like, how do I get people to be aware of what I built? Played around with that for six months. And then, I was like, I got to start a podcast, like, now I'll interview people. And so, it's just a constant iteration of, like, toying around with some stuff. And look, there's plenty of things I do that I'm like, that clearly fails.
\n\nAnd I think the question I ask myself a lot with the things that don't work is, did you give them enough time to be successful? Did you go about them in the right way and then decide to pivot? And, like, you won't always know all the answers to that. So, I think the point in giving sort of that timeline right there is it's a constant evolution, and you just do the best job you can and be okay with how the sort of the cards fall.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And if you fail or it doesn't work how you expect it, it's like, well, did I learn something? And did I have fun doing it? [laughs]
\n\nCHRIS: And if you take care of yourself along the way and you haven't sacrificed your own mental health and your well-being, your relationships with your kids, your partner, whoever it is, then at least you, like, if you fail, you're not like, and now I'm 30 pounds overweight. I'm miserable. My mental health is suffering. Like, you've got to balance that out. And so, I think that's going back to enjoying the journey as like, don't lose sight of the things that are really important. Building a company, yes, important, and for some people, it is really important. But at the end of the day, your health, your sanity are the most important things that you have.
\n\nAnd so, I see all too often that a lot of entrepreneurs and just people in general are willing to literally kick that to the curb to chase some prestige, some recognition, some financial gain. And look, man, like, you know, there's plenty of rich people out there that are completely miserable, that are unhappy.
\n\nI always think of Steve Jobs a lot. He had really lot of good...he did a commencement speech at Stanford when he was diagnosed with cancer. And, I mean, this is one of the most successful business people on our planet. Apple is the most successful company today at three trillion dollars or so market cap. And here's the visionary of the company. And when he was diagnosed with cancer, all he wanted was more time. It wasn't like, oh, I need more time to build another product. It's like the dude just wanted to be around longer. It didn't matter how many billions of dollars he had or products. Those were things that sort of fell to the wayside. It was all about his health.
\n\nSo, point being is like, just over-indexing on success and not really looking at what is success; success is your mental health, your well-being. That is real success.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Wow. I can relate to that, too. I had, like, at a very young age, decided, oh, I'm going to be, like, an IT project manager. And then I got my PMP certification and I was like, oh, well, what do I do now? [laughs] What's the next thing? And it's just like, keep going and going and going. So, enjoy the moment, you know, love the journey, and prioritize that above those things. And that includes, like, learning, learning all these different parts of, like, how to build a business and how to build product.
\n\nIt reminds me of a journey that we hear where you could have a great idea and you're like, oh, I need to design it, and then I need to build it. And then, like, a year later, you're like, wow, I haven't talked to any users yet [laughs]. It's like, I don't actually know anything about what people want. And that's a really difficult thing to do.
\n\nAnd it's a very emotional journey as well to go out and talk to people and try to ask questions in a way that doesn't give you false positives or false negatives and being able to leave your ego to the side and actually connect with people and hear about their problems. So, how has that been for you? Has there been anything in your discovery process that has surprised you and caused you to pivot in direction?
\n\nCHRIS: And although you didn't ask the question in this way, a recommendation I would have for a lot of people and, you know, if you read The Lean Startup, it's a good book. It's one worth reading. I read a lot of product books and stuff. I would say, like, imagine you have no money. How will you test your concept? Like, so, like, I came into building this with some capital behind me, my own capital. And it's just easy to spend money, and not that I was naive to think spending money you do need to invest in some things, but I wish I had a lot less money than I did coming into it because I would have spent a lot less money.
\n\nAnd I think you don't need a tremendous amount of money to start to get that user feedback that you're suggesting. I think there's some very organic ways that you could do it. And you really got to imagine, like, you have nothing. Like, how will you test this with $100? I was listening to a podcast episode the other day on the founder of Boston Dynamics. He was being interviewed, and it was a really cool one. Boston Dynamics is one of the leading robotic companies out there.
\n\nAnd this guy had, you know, started the company 30 years ago, and he was walking through some of his early days. And he's like, he was talking about building the pogo stick robot and how he only had, like, I think it was, like, it was either a hundred or a thousand dollars to, like, build this robot, or maybe it was 3,000. It was a really, really low amount. And he basically was trying to build a robot that, like, jumped up and down on, like, a benign budget himself.
\n\nIt was a complete failure, but he learned some things through it. But he had enough success in that that when he then pitched that concept to the next person, I think it was, like, some congressional person, they gave him, like, a $250,000 budget, which was, like, back in 1980. But the point being is like, he had so little to start with, but he was still able to get some success. Versus if he had had 250,000, I don't know that he would have figured it out at that moment. He would have spent a lot more money.
\n\nAnd so, I think for entrepreneurs that are starting something out, you're so right: the product-market fit is huge. It's hard not to get false positives. It's hard not to just hear what you want to hear. And so, what I've learned is that, like, there's a difference between what people say and what people do. And what you need to be doing is paying attention to what people actually do, not what people say.
\n\nI interviewed lots of coaches across the planet. I'd share this idea. And, I mean, I had a phenomenal, like, 90% of them were like, "Chris, this is amazing." They would share some of their personal videos with me. And I'm like, wow, God, like, everybody thinks this is a great idea. And then, I started to realize like, it's probably because I'm decently looking. I can talk to people well. Like, there's a little bit of a me factor. I was like, well, what happens when I take me out of the equation? Will still 90% of people still think it's a good idea? And the answer was like, no. It completely changes.
\n\nIf I'm not there to navigate or provide the narrative, which, as entrepreneurs and founders, we're typically the storyteller, but if you remove me and I just show you it, you'll be like, "Ah, it's cool." But, I don't have enough of the expertise in product design and the sticky factor. I haven't found the right combination for somebody just to interact with and be like, "This is pretty sweet. I want to use it."
\n\nSo, going back to your original question, is like, you need to do more of that, and you need to learn how to do that stuff. I am still like you at surfing. I'm a novice at this. Like, I'm out there trying, but I am crashing all the time. And I am constantly trying to get back up and figure out how can I do this better and not provide an illusion that I'm getting it right, really paying attention to what do users actually like and not like? I am far from figuring that out. I'm still dedicated to doing it, but by no means have I hit a home run here.
\n\nVICTORIA: What keeps you motivated? What keeps you going and trying to solve that question?
\n\nCHRIS: You know, it goes back to an original statement I made with you is like, life is so hard for so many people. I jokingly will tell people, I said this a lot when I was interviewing coaches, is like, look, I'm very aware of my privilege. I'm a white, male who lives in Northern California in the U.S. I was born in the '80s. Like, I did not grow up with, like, this insurmountable, you know, adversity that I had to overcome. Like, there's a lot that was easier for me to obtain in my life.
\n\nAnd look, I work really hard. I am incredibly focused. I put in a lot of work. I'm very focused in that way. But I also just recognize, like, it might have been different if I was born somewhere else, if I looked a different way, if I didn't have access to the resources that I did. And so, my point with that statement is that I am a massive believer that whatever excess currencies you have, time, capital, energy, whatever it is, it is our obligation to help as many people on this planet in whatever way we think we can help them.
\n\nThere are 800 million people on our planet that don't have clean drinking water, which is mind-boggling to me, considering the age we live in. I mean, we take it for granted you turn on the faucet and water comes out. That is a luxury that we have in living in the United States and in the Western Hemisphere. I mean, when you think about 800 million, that's almost 1 out of 8 people that don't have clean drinking water. And that's just drinking water, let alone access to vaccines or whatever you may choose.
\n\nAnd so, the point that I'm making is that for those of us that have excess of anything, and maybe it's just time, or maybe it is you have a lot of money, we should be doing the best job we can to help other people in the ways that we think would help them. For me, I'm focused on mental health and well-being. For somebody else, that might be providing good food, or medicine, or whatever it may be, and that's okay. We just need more people contributing to, hopefully, you know, lift as many people up to the point that we all have good lives. That's what keeps me going is the fact that, like, I don't take for granted for one second how easy my life is.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And I like that you're trying to build technology that helps people and isn't just trying to, like, make the most money you can, or try to, like [laughs], flip it around or just share something that, you know, is really personal to you and, like, really is meaningful to you. So, I really appreciate you sharing that with me. What does success look like six months from now or even five years from now?
\n\nCHRIS: Look, success for me is pretty much what I've stated this whole episode is, like, I'm taking good care of myself. I'm very present in my life with my wife, my kids, my friends doing things that make Chris happy. That's what success looks like.
\n\nNow, clearly, we're here talking about The Standard and growing, and so I'd love to see more progress being made. I'd love to see more users on the platform. I'd like to be learning and figuring out, how do I help people share their story in a way that empowers them to share that story? How do I get people to want to share their story that don't feel like they have to be paid to do so?
\n\nYou know, what I find so interesting when I talk to so many people and, you know, I ran 45 episodes of our podcast this year. So, I talked to a lot of people that have gone through some adversity, and they'll all say the same thing, "Dude, I will help anybody that is going through what I've..." Like, nobody wants to see somebody struggle, especially when you know how hard adversity is, whatever that may be for you. You don't want to see other people struggle because you know how painful that is.
\n\nI want to see people who are willing to quote, unquote, "give back" and say, "Look, if I can share a few things about how I've navigated my adversity, whatever that adversity is, because it will benefit other people going through this, I don't need to be paid for that. I just want to share it because it's sort of the right thing to do. It's sort of a pay it forward." I think in today's age, like, in the creator economy, like, everybody's like, "Well, I'm not going to help out unless I get paid." And, like, look, that might be a very privileged statement that I'm making, that I have the luxury.
\n\nBut when I build The Standard, right or wrong, and some people would argue, "This is, like, the dumbest business model ever, Chris," is like, I don't think about monetization. Like, I'm not like, how do I get paid on this? Is it ads? Do I charge people? Like, I'm just trying to build something that I think actually will help people, and I'm trying to do it for the right reason. So, it's people before profit. But, at one point, there has to be money involved to some extent. But I don't put the money part first. I put the people. How do I get that right?
\n\nSo, my hope would be, in 5, 3 years, whatever the time would be, is that more people buy into the message and they're like, look, if all it takes is me to spend 20, 30 minutes to create a couple of videos on my habits and share a little bit of my story, and there's a way to memorialize some of the things that I've learned for the benefit of other people going through it, that's great. That's a drop in the bucket of my time. That if enough people started to do that, it would send a signal to a wider swatch of our community, or people, or species that it's okay to share some of the things that make you who you are. And if you did that, it lets somebody else do that.
\n\nAnd if you get enough people doing that, you build a phenomenal habit bank, if you will, of just stories that other people can leverage for their own benefit. That would be success from my perspective. I try not to attach a certain amount of users. It's really just like, can I start to convince more and more people that you probably already have some information that would be really valuable to other people?
\n\nI'm just trying to organize it in a way that someone can find it, but I need people to share their story because the platform is not about me. Although I'm on it, it's not about Chris Pallatroni. It's about you. I mean, I'm sure you've gone through things in your life that you've learned, and you've navigated that. If you could share that in a way that was authentic and easily organized, other people would hear your story and be like, God damn, that's me too. I'm just trying to get more people to do that. That would be success in my mind.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, it reminds me of a program I'm involved with. You might have heard of Big Sister, Little Sister, or Big Brother, Little Brother. It's a mentorship program. So, you have a one-on-one relationship with someone who's...like, the little sister I have really reminds me of myself when I was that age, like, you know, early high school awkwardness, trying to figure out how to navigate friendships and family life and getting a lot of pressure on, like, what are you going to do with your career? Even though you're still, like, really young.
\n\nSo, it's interesting to think about how could you scale that and, like, have more content, like, take some of the little bits of conversations we have and, like, share that with other people who are going through the same thing.
\n\nCHRIS: Yeah, it's exactly that. And there's lots of stuff out there. I mean, you think of, like, you know, Alcoholics Anonymous like, in a lot of ways, that is it. Or people that have gone through school shootings, like, they find a lot of comfort in talking to other people that have navigated that. Like, there is no topic that does not touch mental health and well-being. Like, there's none. Like, I mean, I've read them all.
\n\nAnd so, it's just about taking people...and this is the beauty of it, like, sure, there are experts out there, Mel Robbins, Tony Robbins, you know, they've read. Their whole life is about self-development and empowerment. But if you take an average person somewhere in the world and maybe they have read notebooks on self-development or any of that, and you just start to dissect their experience as a human, what I know to be true is that they'll say, "I went through this," whatever this may be. And if you start to unravel the, how'd you cope with it? What did you learn? What habits did you develop? What mindsets did you develop? There is profound wisdom.
\n\nIt may not be textbook. They may not understand the science behind it, but what they will share is something that is very real and that it's said in a very authentic way. And the words they use are incredibly powerful that if you could just capture that in a very authentic way and store it, and most importantly, find a way to organize it so it's easy for somebody to find, that's what this is about. And so, there's lots of this that exist out there. There's just no central mechanism that tries to tie this all together. And so, that's sort of what I'm attempting to do.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really cool. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story and talking about what you've been building. Is there anything else that you would like to promote?
\n\nCHRIS: No, not at all. I mean, I would just say, like, if anybody's interested, like, the platform that we have is thestandardapp.com. It's not an app; that's just the URL for it. Or you can find us on pretty much any social channel. It's just The Standard. We do run a podcast, which is The Standard Podcast, where we interview a lot of the coaches. But any one of those things will give you a really good idea of what we're trying to do. And if you feel like you've got something of value, we'd always love for more people to come on and just share their story in a way that's authentic to them. And that's really what we're about.
\n\nVICTORIA: Awesome. Thank you so much.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for the episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on X @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
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Hosts Victoria Guido and Will Larry are joined by Trent Walton, CEO of Luro. Trent shares his journey into the design world, from his early fascination with typography and logos to co-founding Paravel. This agency later evolved into creating Luro, a no-code solution for building design systems and tracking their adoption across products.
\n\nTrent emphasizes the importance of understanding the materials one works with in design and development and stresses the need for a holistic approach to product building. This approach blurs the lines between disciplines, encouraging a generalist mindset over specialization. Luro, as a product, stemmed from the realization that existing design systems often fell short in adoption and application, leading to a search for a more integrated and comprehensive solution.
\n\nTrent outlines the functionality and vision behind Luro, explaining how it serves not just designers and developers but entire organizations by fostering better collaboration, documentation, and understanding of design decisions. Luro aims to streamline the creation and maintenance of design systems, making them more accessible and manageable, even for teams facing resource constraints. By incorporating performance, accessibility metrics, and the ability to track component adoption and integration, Luro provides a platform for continuous improvement and alignment with organizational goals.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido.
\n\nWILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. And with me today is Trent Walton, CEO of Luro. Luro is a no-code solution to build your design system and track adoption across your entire product. Trent, thank you for joining me.
\n\nTRENT: Oh, thanks for having me. It's great to be here.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I can't wait to dive into Luro and get to know more about the product. But before we go into that, tell us a little bit about yourself. I know you're based out of Texas.
\n\nTRENT: Yeah, I grew up, lived here my whole life. I'm in Austin with the other co-founders, Dave and Reagan. Been a designer probably all my life, always been interested in, like, typography and fonts. When I was little, I used to buy badges for cars from swap meets and take them home, not because I needed, like, I had a car I was building and had any interest in, like, sandblasting or building an engine. I just liked the typography, and the design of the icons, and the logos, and all that kind of thing.
\n\nAnd so, now it's evolved into me just being, like, a type aficionado and a graphic design aficionado, and then that evolved into, especially when I discovered the web in the early 2000s, building and designing websites with Dave and Reagan, who I mentioned. And so, we had an agency called Paravel early on and had a lot of time putting into practice kind of that design and development and building for the web.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, your first interest in design came from, is it a car engine? Is that what I heard?
\n\nTRENT: Well, yeah, my father is a mechanical engineer, and so is my brother. And they work on cars, have classic, like, old Mustangs and Cobras and things that they build in their spare time. And I have no interest in that kind of work [laughs] but grew up in that environment. And, you know, pre-internet growing up in the '80s, one of the things that really got me was the aesthetic and the design around those kinds of muscle cars, so, like, old Shelby or Cobra or Mustang Ford ads, just, I really got into that.
\n\nSo, I'd buy, like, car manuals for a few bucks, or if there's a Mustang Cobra and there's a cool, like, chrome snake logo with a condensed uppercase typeface or some sort of lettering that says, you know, "Shelby Cobra." And that's when I realized [laughs] where my interests lie. You know, engines are cool. They sound cool. Fast cars are cool. But I was just totally, you know, enamored with the typography and the design aspect that surrounded those things, and then it just kind of evolved from there. Anything else I could get my hooks into, I picked up on.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that because when I talk to people about design, for folks who don't have a background in it, they kind of think, oh, design, that's logos. You know, I'm redesigning my house right now. My husband is like, "Oh, it's picking the tiles and the colors. We can do that." And I'm like, "No, like, design, there's a lot more to it. Design is everywhere." Like, you can find design inspiration from car manuals [laughs], it's so funny that you bought those, or from random logo design and actually, like, really good design. If it's something that's designed well, you probably don't even notice it. You just flow and use the space or use the app as you're intended to.
\n\nTRENT: Yeah. And I also think that getting inspiration or starting ideas out from anywhere but the medium you're working in might be a nice little trick to bring some, like, naïve, fresh perspective to things. So, I try to go back to that stuff as much as possible. I have heaps of manuals I've bought off of eBay in recent years, yeah, things you wouldn't think you'd find on, like, you know, whatever, a graphic designer's bookcase, just anything to sort of break the monotony or break my own little lenses of what a website should look like, or what a logo or a brand should look like, how to step outside of that a little bit.
\n\nBut it's funny because it really does go back to that initial sense of wonder I experienced at those really just, you know, we're talking, like, in a gross, swampy field in Texas with, like, funnel cakes being served at every corner, like, not the most slick, rad graphic designy vibe, but that's where it all started for me. So, I go back there as often as I can [laughs].
\n\nVICTORIA: So, how do you talk to founders or people who are thinking about building products? How do you talk to them about design and give them a where to get started approach?
\n\nTRENT: I don't know that I ever specifically talk about design or even maybe, like, engineering or about performance. I talk about all those things, accessibility, et cetera. I try to blur those lines as much as possible. It's maybe an idyllic thing that I've had for years. But going back to the agency days, I'll call them the agency days, but up until, like, you know, 2015, '16, Dave, Reagan, and I ran an agency called Paravel. And by nature, the three of us are some sort of a hybrid between a designer, maybe, like, a front-end developer. You know, Dave's more of an engineer now.
\n\nBut we've all been very careful to make sure that we're generalists, which I don't know that that, like, career-wise that, might pay off long term, but I cannot work on the web any other way or talk about the web any other way. I've always felt like, I mean, there was the old, which we don't have to get into, gosh, but the debate on should designers code? But I think the essence of that is really, like, should we be familiar with the materials we're working on?
\n\nSo, anytime I start to talk about designing for the web or designing a product, you want to make sure everyone has a clear understanding of the environment that they're working with. So, is it, you know, a website? And is performance important? And is our site that we're redesigning is it performant now? Is it fast or slow? Or am I a designer who only cares, and this is a thing that I have to fight inside of myself all the time?
\n\nSo, I'm not trash-talking anybody, but, like, do I want to load a bunch of fonts and cool images, and is that my KPI is how interesting and engaging the visuals are? Which is a great one to have, but it also, you know, while you're talking about design, you have to consider all of these other things that can define quality for an experience. Maybe those other things don't matter as much from one person to the next. But the more they are in front of me, the more they evolve the way I perceive what I work on.
\n\nAnd so, I try to never really isolate any kind of aspect into maybe, like, a stage or a sprint that we're doing as a team. It's just sort of this holistic kind of hippie vibey way to look at sites, but I want to make sure that it's always, like, we're always starting from a very, very broad place that involves every aspect, and all team members and stuff like that.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, I love that because I try to think about that in the same way from the other end, like, on the operations perspective when you're talking about site performance. And, you know, like, is the site responding fast enough? And it comes back to the question of, like, well, what is the experience, expectations of the user? And what's important to get done on the site? [laughs] And having those conversations, like, early on and integrating all these different teams from the design and development and operation side to have that conversation so everyone knows what is the goal of the site and what is the important aspects of the user experience that the system needs to be able to support?
\n\nSo, I also like that you said that it's like, well, should you be familiar with the materials that you're using? [laughs] Thought that that was really cool. Like, I'm actually...my husband and I are renovating our home. And I'm talking about why we should invest in design [laughs], and part of it's because there's things to know about the materials. Like, if you're choosing a floor for your house, like, the designers will know, like, what's the durable ones? What's the ones that are going to fit your need, and your cost, and your budget? And so, like, they don't necessarily need to be a person who's going to lay the floors [laughs], but they need to know what to expect out of what you decide to use.
\n\nTRENT: Yeah, it's, like, all of these constraints. And so, being familiar with the real-world implications of the decisions we make, you know, inform that. So, yeah, I mean, I think that's pretty similar, too. It's like, well, you need this floor because it's more durable in this climate or whatever, same thing for, you know, the websites that we build. It's all contingent upon the outcomes that, hopefully, we can mutually agree on. You know, there's kind of a general sense of, like, performance is important, and accessibility is paramount and extremely important. But then there's some nuance to that as you get into some smaller decisions.
\n\nSo, having these kinds of discussions early on and frequently and almost...the way I like to think about it is rather than, like, a check-in where we say, "Okay, this is it," but having a place where we can all look to check in and find information and share information that's maybe not so fast. One thing I like to think about is things get lost in chats and maybe even tickets, so as you're closing tickets and opening tickets. There's a bug. I solved it. It's gone. Can you send me this logo? Can we tweak this? These micro changes they open and close very, very quickly. And so, there's this firehose that happens.
\n\nAnd so, I find that having a place separate from that for discussing these things and remembering these things, and referencing these things while we are in our code editors or inside of our Figma or any kind of design tool that we use to sort of cross-reference and simmer on things as we think about the decisions that we have to make, as opposed to just knocking them out super quick, always being mindful of those constraints. And again, yeah, the [chuckles] materials we're working with, whether it's just, you know, HTML, CSS, and JavaScript or whatever, but all of those things. It's good to be mindful of that.
\n\nWILL: I know you said that you've been in design for a while, and so I love just picking the brain of someone who's been into it a while and see how far we've come from, especially just the 2000s. So, in your opinion, with design, how do you feel about where we've come since the beginning of tech to where we're at now and, also, I guess, where we're going with the design?
\n\nTRENT: Yeah. So, I guess I can really just frame...this is going to help me remember just framing [laughs] where we were. I started off on Homestead, which is sort of like GeoCities. I was in college. I graduated, and I think it was 2001, maybe 2000, anyways. And it was mainly just taking images...I didn't even have Photoshop at this point. And you realize you could, like, tile a background for a build your own website. Homestead was one of those kinds of deals. And I thought that was very interesting. So, I had this cheap digital camera. It took a lot of cords to figure out how to, like, port that onto this old, crappy Hewlett Packard computer that was, like, a hand-me-down.
\n\nFast forward a couple of years, I had graduated, did not study design, so I'm all kind of self-taught or just taught by the web, the peers, the information that has been shared and been influenced by. But Dreamweaver was out, and Macromedia was huge, and I loved Fireworks. And so, Dave Rupert, I paid him $80 to teach me HTML [laughs], and so we've been together ever since. This is right out of college.
\n\nAnd so, the tools that we used there were pretty rudimentary, but Fireworks was rad. Like, it was kind of web-based. It felt like it made more sense. I love Photoshop, and that's kind of, like, a primary graphic design tool that I still use to this day. But early on, it just felt like everything was so harshly limited.
\n\nSo, if you had any kind of idea that you wanted to execute that you could just draw on a piece of paper, mock it up in Photoshop, the amount of work that you had to do to get that to happen was either extremely high, or it was just impossible. And then, if it was impossible, I bet you can guess what we did. We went to Flash, and we made, like, a crappy video of a web page that was not accessible and really hard to use. I was heavy into Flash for, like, two or three years until kind of, as I had been warned by Dave that, you know, HTML and CSS are going to be the way the web works.
\n\nBut when I came back to that, there was this wonderful time where it felt like we were charting out every single...it was just new territory. It's like we had come to this other planet or this other world, and everything that needed to be done, we had to figure out how, like, getting web fonts onto pages, rounding borders. I mean, getting that done aside from slicing images in Fireworks felt like this new monumental discovery that changed the lives of many. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't, but in my world, it felt like that.
\n\nAnd so, early on, you can look back on it and go, gosh, everything was a pain in the ass, like, living with all of these limitations. But for me, I do look back at it like that, but I also look back on it as this wonderful time where we were building the web that we're working on now. So, all these things that make designing easier and quicker come with some sort of a, you know, an evolution of your perception, and [inaudible 13:14] fond memories of work along the way.
\n\nFor me, it's sort of I've just always sort of been around working on the web and watching design evolve, and every little step maybe feels like a tiny one or a large one. But these days, it just seems like, oh, this is exactly how it should have [laughs] always been, like, convenient grids and convenient box shadow and all that kind of stuff.
\n\nBut yeah, it's been nice to sort of grow up only being a web designer. Like, I mean, I've done graphic design. I've done brochures and, print design, and logo design for sure. But, I have always been anchored to and centered around web design and thinking about things in the context of how they will be applied to the web first and foremost.
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\n\nVICTORIA: So, what was the turning point for you that led you to found Luro? How did it all get started?
\n\nTRENT: With Paravel, the agency days, we had a lot of fun. I think, for us, our big agency spike was when responsive web design came out. Ethan coined the term. There was a lot of people on the web, you know, a lot of agencies or a lot of teams, a lot of companies that needed to pivot into that. And so, we found this great working relationship with companies where we would come in and sort of had a little bit more practice just because we got in early learning kind of how to do that well, I think.
\n\nAnd it was a sort of we're going to redesign a page, a homepage perhaps, or, like, a marketing page. You'll do that project; three to six months go by. And then the next thing turns into, well, we have this giant network of e-commerce stores. We have this giant network of pages with, like, download centers and support documents. And now, we need to make everything responsive, and it can be anything. We need to make everything accessible. We need to make everything performant. We need to update the brand on everything.
\n\nAnd I don't think we're alone in this. I think this is the beginning of the greater design system discussion as it applies to the web. Obviously, design systems predate the web; design systems pre-date, like, 2012 or '13 or whenever we got into it. But projects started to migrate from, "Hey, can you design this really amazing, responsive marketing page," to "We have a system, and we need you to solve these problems." We love working on those problems. I still do to this day.
\n\nBut the reason why we switched from kind of being a, you know, individual contributor-type agency consultant type roles to building a SaaS product was because we were realizing that things got complicated...is a very, like, boring way to say it. But to get a little deeper, it was, we would see things not ship. So, like, our morale went down. The teams that we were working with morale kind of went down. And as I was digging into why things weren't shipping...and when I mean ship, I think, like, pages would ship, of course. Like, here's a page. It just needs to be built, somebody decided, or a new feature needs to be built. Of course, those went out.
\n\nBut the idea of, is our design system or the system that we're designing launched? Is it applied? Is it fully adopted? Is it partially adopted? It never felt like the amount of traction that we were promising or that we were being asked for. And I don't mean we, as in just the three of us, but the entire team or the entire organization who, in many cases, all were bought into the idea of design systems.
\n\nSo, what we found was, when things got real, and we had to give up things, and we had to work on things and prioritize things, it became much more difficult to work in that capacity, probably partially because of the cross-discipline nature of those things. So, as opposed to what I consider maybe a miserable way to work in many cases, is the classic; here's my Photoshop comp. And I have a red line document JPEG that I will give you, whatever engineer I'm working with, or it's myself, and I'm just giving myself a red line document, but you're just going through and trying to make those things match.
\n\nAnd that is sort of not fun for the team because now we're just sort of chiseling each other and sort of, like, going through and critiquing our work over and over versus really kind of in the spirit of prototyping and inventing together. I find that products are diminished when you do that.
\n\nSo, as you try to get into this design system part, it requires a lot more insight into what everyone around us is doing, kind of, as I was saying at the beginning, how to have this cross-discipline view of what we are actually working on. And that view is what we thought, and we still believe in many cases, is absolutely missing. So, you can spin up a design system. And Luro is not the only design system tool. Of course, you can spin up your own. And what I mean by that is, like...I'm maybe going to answer, like, three questions in one. Maybe you haven't even asked them yet.
\n\nBut just to kind of frame this, if you ask anyone what a design system is, it might be a different answer. It might be these are my Figma components that I've created and I've shared out, and there's a public link. You know, an engineer might say, "Well, it's the GitHub repo of components that I'm actually using." So, the design is helpful as documentation. But the design system is the code, or the design system is the actual...or the actual components that are live that users see, which I would argue probably is the most accurate, just because we're talking about user experience impacting whatever business objectives we may have.
\n\nSo, those components need to make their way into live sites or products. So, finding out what that answer is, what's the source of truth? What is our design system? What are our components? What are our standards? You have to have multiple sources for that, just because there's multiple people with multiple opinions and multiple measures of success involved in those. And all of those opinions and measures of success, I would say, are valid. So, accounting for those and kind of crossing the streams, if you will, in one sort of central UI, we believed was crucial enough that we should jump out of the agency days and into a product-building scenario.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really interesting. So, you saw this pattern in the delivery of your work as an agency that made you want to build a solution to create better outcomes for a potentially exponential number of clients, right? [chuckles]
\n\nTRENT: Yeah, hopefully. I think that working on how you work together as a team is vitally important, and if you can find the right environment, then the actual product will benefit. I mean, and I'm not even just thinking about these maybe soft things like, oh yeah, if engineers and designers can work together, the typography will be a little bit better, and the site will feel a little bit more cohesive, and it'll be maybe a little bit easier to digest. I believe that.
\n\nBut I also believe that there are people in organizations doing research, financial analysis, customer analysis, A/B testing, you know, all sorts of work that contributes to the decisions that we make about our sites and products that sort of just gets lost in the shuffle, in the firehose of the day to day. So, having something that takes not only a, I guess, what you could classify as the what for a design system, it could be the design of a component. Maybe it's actually even, too, as well, the code that makes up that component. But then there's this giant why. Why does the button look the way that it does? Why does a card have a border around it? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why?
\n\nThese things maybe they come up during meetings. Maybe there's something that, as a designer or an engineer, I found maybe on the company's shared OneDrive or somebody mentioned in passing. Those things are vitally important, and they need to be, again, back to the morale and perception evolving; they need to be accessible to everyone. But it's a needle-in-a haystack situation.
\n\nIt's funny. We would consult. And one of my favorite stories is we were building this prototype. We were hired to build a prototype for a startup in Austin. They were on a big, open floor-plan office with the glass meeting rooms. And we were showing off our prototype, and we just felt really clever and witty about the way we were going to solve this and the pages that we were going to build.
\n\nAnd who is a friend now, a person named Angela walks by, and she's like, "What are you working on?" And we told her what it was. And she says, "Oh, wow, you know, six months before you started contracting with the startup, we did this all, and we've user-tested it. Everybody's been reorged, and nobody remembers. But I have this PowerPoint I can send you, and it will show you the results. Some of these things you're doing are probably going to be great. The other things you should absolutely not be repeating these mistakes."
\n\nAnd I thought about how likely it was that she walked by and happened to see that through the window and happened to look on the sharp television on the wall. And it's probably not very likely, and as we become, you know, we're remote and working remote the likelihood of those things happening maybe goes down. The idea of building a product that increases the likelihood or almost makes it seamless that you can find information relevant to what you were working on, even if you're new to that project or you haven't worked on it for a long time, is very, very key.
\n\nSo, within Luro, you can build a design system. You can add your styles. You can add your components, configure your tokens, and do all that, but you can also integrate those things that I was mentioning: prototyping, research, and testing. We also do an accessibility and performance through Lighthouse and give you metrics there. All of those things are associated to the pages that your site is comprised of. They're associated to the components that you use to build everything. So, we're sort of crossing the streams here.
\n\nSo, if you're going into imagine a button component and you're like, okay, the border-radius is four pixels. The type size is 16 pixels, and here's how you code it. We're putting in an actual button. The class is dot btn. That's all great. It's helping us build the button. But if you are asked by leadership or anyone, "Why did you decide this?" Or "What is the impact of design?" Or "What is the impact of the product team on our bottom line? How are you moving the needle? How are you helping us as an organization achieve?" The answer isn't, "Well, we made the border four pixels just like the design [chuckles] said." That's great. Good job.
\n\nBut I think having all of this information associated with design and associated with engineering not only makes us more informed as contributors to teams but it helps us to articulate the value of what we do on the daily in a much more broad organizational sense.
\n\nSo, you can say, "Well, we user-tested this, and we realized that if we took out these form elements from a signup flow, we get more signups by having fewer steps. And so we removed a step. We user-tested it before and after, and signups went up 30%." That's a much cooler answer than, "Well, our design system helps us be consistent," even though we know that that is vitally important, and it makes our app or our site feel much more cohesive, and it contributes to that sign up metric or a sales metric just as much.
\n\nBut having this data and associating it with a component so it's not something that you have to sort of...I guess it almost sounds subjective if you bring it up and say, "Well, we're moving faster, and we're selling more stuff." That's not great. But if you can link and say, "Well, here's a PowerPoint before," or "Here's a summary of a user test before and after. Here's real numbers," it helps you to portray yourself as the designer or engineer or product team member who thinks very deeply about these things, and it helps you to accurately portray yourself in that way.
\n\nSo, I went on a real tangent, but actually just there, I think I just was describing sort of the nuts and bolts of why we built Luro to not only be a design system tool but, like, what we kind of also call a product development tool, a product development system. So, it's extending the idea of design systems to the practice of building a product with an entire organization.
\n\nWILL: That's really, really cool, and you did a great job explaining it. I'm excited to see it and see where it's going. I felt like a lot of what you were saying was the why you're doing stuff, why you chose, you know, X, Y, Z. Is that where the analytics and the tracking portion of Luro comes into play?
\n\nTRENT: Yeah. I think that one thing we heard a lot from agencies or even just teams within an organization that are working on design systems is back to that articulating the value of maybe a design system or articulating the value of the work that we do as designers or product builders and similar to we've done a user test and these are the results, and sales or signups, or whatever the case may be, have improved. I think one of the key metrics for a design system is, is the component adopted? There are other ones, and people will mention those, things like, is it helping a team be quicker?
\n\nSo, if there's a design system team, and then there's multiple product teams within an organization, and they all want to work together, and they want to be able to take the components that they need and build their ideas quicker, prototype quicker, that's a great metric as well. But one that we find vitally important is, are the components live to users? And so, being able to track that has a lot of value. One, obviously, is that communicating that to the greater organization, saying, "You know, we've spun up a design system team. The card component is on 49% of pages. The button is on 100% of pages."
\n\nAnd then if you're trying to be more tactical about how to improve the product or even just track down, you know, which components or which pages or which experiences aren't, I guess, consistent with the design system, you can say, well, "There's 49%, and there's 51% of pages that may or may not have the card component." And so, you can go find outdated components if you're trying to phase new ones in, and all of those sorts of things as well.
\n\nSo, the metrics are sort of great from a thematic sense, saying, this is the value that our design system is, you know, affording us as a business and the users are experiencing while they're using our app or our site. But then, also, you can drill down into these metrics and see, okay, the button is appearing here. I can click into pages and see views where it's being used on the page level and see, is it being used properly? Those kinds of things.
\n\nYou can track legacy components as well, so, for example, if we've rebranded the site that we all work on together and our old button was, like, dot button and the new button is dot BTN or however we would want to class those things. And you can use classes. You can use data attributes, all those kinds of things. But I would say we can track legacy along that.
\n\nSo, if your goal is to completely adopt the new design system across the entire network and products within six months or whatever the case may be, you know, month over month, week over week, you can check our, you know, line graphs and see, hopefully, the legacy occurrences of that going down over time. So, if, like, the button is being used less and less and then the dot BTN is being used more and more, you can see those sort of swap places.
\n\nAnd so, what we have found is talking about things in sort of an objective or fuzzy way, saying, well, we're trying to ship this, and we're doing these inventories, and we're going through all the pages. And we're clicking around trying to find old things, or we're redesigning pages. But it's very, very difficult. This is just an instant quantification of where our components are manifesting in the product.
\n\nSo, what we do is, with Luro, you can give us...whether it's behind an authentication layer or not, we crawl web pages, first and foremost. So, you can give us a site. And this is all optional. You can spin out a design system without this. But we crawl the site, and then we will go ahead and do performance and accessibility scores for there.
\n\nSo, that's one way to itemize work, where you can just say, well, as an agency, we're going to work with this company, and we want to show them, like, the starting point and expose weak points on where we might be paying a lot of attention to. In the design or engineering phase, we need to improve the speed here. We have accessibility violations we need to think about, all that kind of stuff.
\n\nAnd then, once you crawl those, you can add your design system, and then you can cross-reference those, and I kind of mentioned that. You can use CSS classes to do that. And so, you'd enter in dot BTN for button. We've already crawled your pages. And so, we can tell you every time that that class appears inside of any page inside of the network. So, it's this very, like, two-minute way to get a wealth of information that's shared and communicated with...the entire organization will benefit. Like I said, like, leadership they can get a sense of how the design system is being used and adopted, but also, the active teams working on things so that they can go find outliers and work on replacing those.
\n\nVICTORIA: It's been over a year in your journey with Luro. What challenges do you see on the horizon?
\n\nTRENT: I still think it is an adoption challenge. I think that, you know, one thing that we found is that a lot of teams, and this is going back to our agency days, but I sort of sort of still see this happening now is that building the design system, you know, let me separate these two things. I think designing components and building the design system in the sense of picking styles, and choosing fonts, and iterating upon something like a search box or, a footer, or a modal that's a lot of work. That's just design and product design and product development in general.
\n\nBut the act of, you know, creating the design system, maybe it's the documentation site, or however, we're communicating these standards across the organization. That part, to me, it's always kind of taken too much time and effort. And to be really candid, the amount of budget that's being allocated for those tasks is less. So, we're having a lot of users who are saying, "Well, I wasn't in charge of a design system. We had a team for that. We don't anymore. And now I'm responsible for it," or "The team's been combined, and I'm working on, like, three things at once."
\n\nAnd so, something that's very, very crucial to us at Luro is to help with the struggle of spinning up a design system. For us, I fully believe that there are design systems that can be fully custom available to the public and need to have, you know, every page and view needs to be unique unto itself. But for Luro, the starting place that we get you with, you know, you can link in your Storybook. You can link in Figma components. You can add components manually and all those sorts of things. Where we can get you in a few minutes is really close.
\n\nAnd then, if you started to fold in, you know, the idea of performance, accessibility, and then all of the other insights that you can then integrate, so if you're doing A/B testing or user testing and doing research, and you want to make sure that that's all involved inside of your design system, then it becomes a really attractive option. So, I think that decreasing the time it takes to get started and to spin up a design system is the number one thing we see people struggling with and the number one thing we want to bring.
\n\nI kind of like to compare it to services like Netlify. Like, I remember I used to have to set up servers to demo things for clients, and it would take an hour, and I don't know what I'm doing. And I would break stuff, and they would have to help me fix it. So, then I'm bothering him. And then, now I'm just, you know, will either link to a CodePen or drag and drop a deployed URL from something like Netlify. And it's this amazing, almost like it feels like deploying is just as difficult as, like, sketching something out on a napkin.
\n\nWe want spinning up a design system to kind of feel that way so it's not so precious. You're not worried about...it is just easy to get started. And so, we're kind of integrating all these other tools that you use to make that easier and quicker because if you do have other things that you're working on and you need to move beyond that so that you can focus on prototyping, or designing, and building the actual components, you can do that. And you have that option as opposed to having to be mired in some of these other details.
\n\nVICTORIA: It seems like change management and integrating change into larger organizations is always the biggest challenge [laughs], even for great innovations. And I'm curious: what types of people or groups have you found are quick to adopt this new method and really the right group for you to center your message on?
\n\nTRENT: Yeah, it is...I was joking, I think, maybe before the podcast started, but it's, like, very ambitious because it's easy, I think, to say, "This tool is for designers. And if you're a designer, you can integrate your Figma, and then you'll have your components published to your team so that they can use them." And that's absolutely true. Like, if you're a designer, Luro is for you. If you're an engineer and you have just received components, and you need a way to document that and show your coded version alongside the design version and be able to collaborate with people in that sense, it is absolutely for you as well.
\n\nSo, you can see how it's almost like you almost have to frame Luro for individuals across the organization. So, it's one of those deals where...and we've kind of experimented with this with the marketing. And the way we've discussed it, we talked to lots of, you know, leadership, heads of product, CMOs, even CTOs, things like that. And so, it's like, if you're trying to get your entire organization to work better, to ship, you know, more effectively, then Luro is the tool for that as well because we're getting into knowledge retention via uploading.
\n\nLike, my favorite story there is if you're an A/B tester, probably, and this is what we've experienced, is you run these tests. A lot of time and effort goes into building the prototypes for the test, whether that's you or an engineering team that's doing those things. This is one of the things we used to do as an agency. We would be brought on to prototype something totally new. We would test that alongside the existing experience. And an A/B tester, we'd work with them, and they would create, like, a PowerPoint or something that would explain the pros and cons and what should happen next and summarize the test.
\n\nAnd that would live on that person's hard drive, whether it's on their computer or, like, a Dropbox or a OneDrive account. And no one ever thought about it ever again. You would just move on to the next test. But the amount of money spent on us to build the prototype and the amount of money spent on the SaaS to spin up the, like, A/B testing environment and all of these things, and then the time spent on the A/B tester to analyze the results and generate a PowerPoint it's not nothing.
\n\nAnd so, one of the things that we find pretty appealing for leadership within Luro is the idea of integrating all of these tools and all this work that you do in mapping them to components so that when you pull up, for example, a button component, you'll see all the user tests that have been added over any period of time. So, if you were a new hire and you're trying to onboard, you can go interview everybody in the organization and ask them about the history of a button or a card component or the history of a sign-up page.
\n\nBut then, also, in a self-service way, you can just click into Luro, click a button, click a card, click to the sign-up page, any of those things, and find all that stuff I was mentioning earlier, whether it's a test, or research, or prototyping, or any kind of documents that have been written. These aren't the arguments that Dave or I might have around the actual border-radius value. Those are small things that probably should be lost in the firehose.
\n\nBut if we have learned an outline button with a stroke is performing way better than a solid-filled button or vice versa, that's important information that doesn't need to disappear in six weeks. So, that's the other kind of metric there is explaining kind of the holistic version, telling the holistic story of Luro to those types. And so, yeah, navigating that and trying to get, like, buy-in on a broad level is kind of what we're working on these days now.
\n\nWILL: Sweet. So, I actually really like how it's almost like version control. You can see the history of what you've been working on. And I really like that because so many times...you're correct. When I go to Figma or anything, I'm like, why are we doing it this way? Oh, we made these decisions. Maybe in comments, you can kind of do it, but I think maybe that's the only place you can see the version control. So, I like that feature. Like you said, you can see the history of why you did something like that.
\n\nTRENT: Yeah. And think about that, so if I am a front-end engineer and I receive a design and everyone thinks that, why are we doing it this way? I would hate to code something...I can do it. It's my job. But if I don't understand why, my feeling about work and maybe the quality of my work goes down, you know what I mean? I guess what I'm trying to say is, like, feeling like you understand, and you're lockstep with the entire team, and you understand what the goal is...what are we trying to do? What are we trying to achieve? Like, what have we reviewed that has made us believe this?
\n\nAnd if you don't have that information, or if I don't have that information, like, there's some traction within the team, whether it's actual momentum forward and the amount of tickets that are being closed, or just the spirit of what we're doing, that the product is going to be diminished. These are all these little things that add up, up, up, up, up over time. So, being able to show this information to be able to access this information kind of passively.
\n\nSo, for example, if you got VS Code open and Luro open and you can see here's the user test from six weeks ago that shows us why we went with option B, you'll say, "Okay, cool. Even better." You know, you can review those things way before you get things handed to you. You know, it's much more kind of this utopian vision of an open, collaborative deal.
\n\nAnd the way I would say that is it's, you know, we all kind of hand things off. So, of course, like, there's some version, even if it's like a micro waterfall that happens on a daily basis. We're all doing that. Like, somebody needs to be done with something to hand it off to something else, so we're not all up in each other's space all the time.
\n\nBut one thing that we like about Luro, whether we use Teams, or Slack, or whatever, it's not a real-time thing where I have to say, "Stop, look what I'm doing [laughs]. Come over here and look because I need you to know this." You can get notifications from Luro, but it's not something that is a context-switching demand type of a situation.
\n\nSo, the idea is if you're like, I'm wondering what's going on. I know this is coming up. I'd like to review. Or I could let you know and tell you, and just on your own time, you can go see this. So, separate from, like, the firehose of tickets and chats, you can see the actual product evolving and some of these, like, key milestone decisions on your own time and review them. And if they've happened before you even started on the project, then you can do that as well.
\n\nWILL: I think that's probably where the breakdown between developers and designers that collab that's where it probably breaks down, whenever you're trying to get your tickets out as a developer. And then there's a change while you're working on it, and it's a complicated change, but you're still responsible for trying to get that ticket out in time. So, I think, like, what you're saying, you can get it beforehand.
\n\nSo, it sounds like, to me, Luro would be a huge help because you have to have developers and designers working together; if you don't, you're just in trouble in general. But anything that can help the relationship between the two I think, is amazing, and that's what I'm hearing whenever you're talking about Luro. It helps. It benefits that relationship.
\n\nTRENT: Yeah, that even makes me think a little bit about the ongoing collaboration aspect. So, it's like, if something is shipped...or maybe let's go the agency scenario here. You've launched a site. You've launched a product. How do we know how it's performing? Of course, you'll have everybody...they're going to have analytics, and we'll be talking about that. And are signups up or down? But Luro will run tests. It'll continue to run component analytics. So, you can sense whether, like, somebody is changing a component. Or, you know, is the fully adopted design system not being utilized or being utilized less or more over time?
\n\nBut then, also, we're running, again, performance and accessibility metrics. So, we've seen it where we've shipped a product for a client. You know, we've had Luro running. We've sort of used that as our hub to collaborate over time. And then we'll notice that there's a giant performance spike and that, like, the page speed has gone way down. And we itemize issues and can point you to exactly the page that it's happening on and give you some insight into that. Of course, you could go through after you've worked with the client and run Lighthouse on every single page in your own time for fun, but that's not reality or fun.
\n\nSo, you'll get this information. And so, you almost...before we were telling people who were using Luro, we were kind of using it ourselves just to help ourselves do a better job. About a month into a project, we were able to email a customer, a former client, and say, "Hey, site's looking great. Amazing to see this. There's a 3-megabyte, 50-pixel avatar. Someone uploaded a giant image. It displays as 50 pixels. But somebody must have uploaded the full one to your homepage, and your page speed score tanked."
\n\nThey're like, "Oh, wow, they must [laughs] be monitoring us and checking in on us every day." We love them dearly, but we were not doing that. We were using Luro off to the side. So, there is this other aspect of just sort of monitoring and making sure things stay, you know, as they were or better once we ship things and move forward to the next.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really interesting. And I'm excited to explore more on my own about Luro. As we're coming towards the end of our time today, I wanted to give you one last chance to shout out anything else that you would like to promote today.
\n\nTRENT: Oh, that's it [laughs], luroapp.com, you know, that's the main thing. Check out component analytics. We have a YouTube channel, and I would say that's probably the easiest, a lot of effort, even though the videos maybe I'd give myself an A-minus or a solid A, not an A-plus on video production. I'm trying to get better. But explaining just, like, how to set things up. There's, like, a one-minute, like, what is all this?
\n\nSo, if you want to see all the things that I've been trying to describe, hopefully well on the podcast [chuckles], you can see that really well. So, I'd say Luro App and then the YouTube channel. We've got, like, five, six videos or so that really kind of help get you into maybe what your use case would be and to show you how easily things are set up.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. Thank you so much for joining us today, Trent, and for sharing about your story and about the product that you've been building.
\n\nTRENT: Yeah. Thank you for having me. This has been great fun.
\n\nVICTORIA: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nWILL: And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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Hosts Will and Victoria sit down with Charlotte Holt, the Founder and Creator of The Fashion Library. Based in London, The Fashion Library is a contemporary wardrobe rental resource tailored for stylists. Charlotte opens up about her diverse background, spanning various countries, and shares the transformative journey that led her from being a stylist to establishing her own venture.
\n\nCharlotte sheds light on the formidable challenges stylists encounter, from the environmental repercussions of fashion production to the financial constraints of traditional shopping methods. She articulates how The Fashion Library is poised to confront these obstacles head-on by offering a platform that enables stylists to rent clothing, fostering sustainability while saving valuable resources like time and money.
\n\nDelving into the realm of technology, Charlotte underscores its pivotal role in streamlining operations and catalyzing a paradigm shift towards a more sustainable fashion industry. She outlines her ambitious vision for The Fashion Library's future, encompassing the archive, broadening the user base, and creating a robust marketplace and working platform.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Charlotte Holt, Founder and Creator of The Fashion Library, London's newest contemporary wardrobe rental resource for stylists. Charlotte, thank you for joining me.
\n\nCHARLOTTE: Thank you for having me. I never ever thought I would be talking on a podcast.
\n\nVICTORIA: You never thought that? Why? What did you think would happen? [laughs]
\n\nCHARLOTTE: As in, like, I never thought I would be on a podcast, me personally. So, like, this is a new experience for me.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. Well, I know you're speaking with us today, and just to warm us up a little bit, I'm curious: what other languages could you be speaking to us in? What's your...I heard you learn multiple.
\n\nCHARLOTTE: So, I actually went to school in the south of France when I was younger. And for the last couple of years, I've been living in Mexico, so I've been trying to learn Spanish. I am pretty proficient in French and getting there in Spanish.
\n\nVICTORIA: Very cool. I live in San Diego, and I've also been learning Spanish for a long time and love to practice sometimes, so... What about you, Will? Do you speak any other languages?
\n\nWILL: I used to speak Spanish, but it's so hard when you don't live in that culture to keep it up. Because I've been to, like, Peru a couple of times and some other South American places, but I always pick it up when I go back in there and kind of get the feel for it, but it's kind of hard. I need to pick it back up. But Spanish is the one that I feel the most comfortable in outside of English.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. We're a bilingual nation. And so, I love that opportunity to get to meet other people and speak in other languages and practice that. So, Charlotte, coming back to your journey, it sounds like you've lived in all these interesting places. Why don't you tell us just a little bit more about your background?
\n\nCHARLOTTE: I am from Scotland originally. I know I don't sound like it. And then I went to school in the South of France for two years, like, to finish high school. Then I ended up back in the UK, living in London for 12, 14 years. And then, just as COVID was happening, I was actually supposed to kind of relocate or start working more in the U.S., and I actually ended up in Mexico [chuckles], of all places, and that's where I stayed for two years. I was living the good life.
\n\nI had a pretty good COVID experience. I was at the beach every day surfing, so I can't complain about that. And then I've been living in the U.S. on the West Coast in Los Angeles before I decided to set up my new business, which has brought me back to London.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow, full circle. Well, what beach were you surfing on in Mexico, or did you go to a bunch of different ones?
\n\nCHARLOTTE: I've been to a bunch, but I was living in Sayulita. I've still got a place there that I keep because I love to be in the ocean. It's one of my favorite things to do. Surfing is definitely a good lifestyle choice of mine.
\n\nVICTORIA: There's not much surfing in London now, so your desire to start your new company must be really powerful [chuckles], very strong.
\n\nCHARLOTTE: Yeah, I actually have questioned myself, especially over the last few months when it's been full, mid-winter here: cold, dark, raining. Like, what am I doing? Why did I give up my kind of dream life working between LA and Mexico, being able to surf, you know, at least two, three, four times a month to come back here to do this? But the bigger picture is, hopefully, I will be able to go and surf wherever I like after I've built this business. So, that's kind of the end goal for me.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Tell me more about what led you to start your own business.
\n\nCHARLOTTE: I have been working as a stylist for the last 12-plus years. And then, obviously, my work took me to the U.S. A friend of mine gave me his little black book contacts of where I should go and places I should use in LA. And I walked into a rental house there that was for industry only and got a lightbulb moment. I was like, oh my God, why is this not happening back in London? And it kind of didn't make sense to me because the productions back in the UK are, well, they seem more sustainable. Everyone's hitting their kind of green quotas and targets.
\n\nSo, it just made sense to me, but not just from, like, the sustainability point of renting clothes, but also having an industry-only place that you can go to and basically prep most of your job in one go. So, it was, like, saving time on the start of the job but also on the end, which is the return side, which people don't always realize.
\n\nEveryone's like, "Oh, it's so glamorous working in fashion and styling." But we are bag ladies. I will often have minimum six, eight cases with me, rails and rails, racks and racks of clothes. I'm always the first one there. I'm the last one there because we're packing away. It's lots of steaming, just lots of stuff. So, to me, it just made perfect sense to recreate the same thing in London. But then I started getting into it a little bit more and started looking at tech and how that can transform what we're doing, too.
\n\nWILL: Before we get too deep into The Fashion Library, I want to, one, explain what a stylist does because, like I said, I am not fashion-forward or friendly. So, tell me kind of what that looks like to do. And also, how did you become a stylist? Was it a dream of yours always, or what did that look like?
\n\nCHARLOTTE: I just love clothes. So, I actually was going to be a lawyer, and I went to school to study law [chuckles], and I ended up being a stylist. So, there's different kind of realms and levels of a stylist. You can be a personal stylist where you work in the consumer realm, helping people dress themselves. Then, you have your editorial stylists who create beautiful imagery for magazines. Then there's the commercial stylists who work on advertising, film, TV production. Then you've got your celebrity stylists. There's different kind of layers within being a stylist.
\n\nI actually work across a broad range of that. I do editorials, so magazines. I've worked with some talent, music videos, TV commercials, short films, stills, and advertising campaigns. And what I really love is how different every job is. It's never the same. You're never with the same crew of people. Every job is different. Sometimes, you might be on set for just one day. Sometimes, you're on set for a week. There's weeks and weeks of prep that goes into the job. There's also a lot of work on the backend doing returns, and budgeting, and reconciling everything. You literally have to love clothes.
\n\nWILL: Where did your love for clothes come from?
\n\nCHARLOTTE: [chuckles] That's a good question. I always thought it was my mum, but, actually, it was definitely my dad. I look at pictures of him from the '70s, '80s. He's got some wild outfits on. And I've got some of his pieces. I've got this floral jacket that we all used to get dressed up in when we were younger because it's the most outrageous piece. I have it now. It's actually amazing. I actually had it on the other week with just a little black vest and some jeans. And because it's such a statement piece, it looks super cool, but it's classic '60s. So yeah, definitely from my dad. He had a wild penchant for clothes.
\n\nVICTORIA: I loved how you brought up, in the beginning, that the role of a stylist is often portrayed as being very glamorous and being very just so fun and creative and how the reality of it is that it's more carrying bags around, and picking up at the end of the day, and getting the clothes ready, and how tedious that can be. And you discovered technology could take some of that tedious out of the process and allow stylists to focus their time on the creative aspects.
\n\nCHARLOTTE: Yeah. So, originally, my plan with The Fashion Library was just to kind of replicate what was happening in the U.S. with the rental house models and just bring it here. And I have a friend who I met surfing in Mexico. He's in his 50s, very successful tech entrepreneur. And I wanted to run my business past him just to kind of get some outsider knowledge but someone who's been there and done it.
\n\nAnd he actually said to me, he was like, "This is great, but you should really, like, start to look at tech and how that is going to really transform businesses in the future." And he flicked that switch on, and that was it. Then, I think a couple of weeks later, I started sending him all my brain dumps about tech and what I was thinking in my mind. And he actually turned around and said to me, "If you can see it in your mind, you can build it."
\n\nSo, I started to look at my pain points as a stylist. And I work differently in every city because you have to adapt. Like, in LA, I'm often out and about compared to London, where I work a lot online. So, I started to look at, like, the pain points of everywhere and what would really be beneficial. It always kind of dialed back to that question of, what would help me as a stylist? So, that's how I've built the business, by looking at that aspect and what's helpful, what's not.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I like that view because I totally agree. Tech is in pretty much everything. It's all about, how can you see it to help you with your pain points? So, that's amazing that you sat back; you saw the pain points, and it helped you create what you're doing. So, that's really, really amazing. Can you tell me more about The Fashion Library? What does that look like? What did you create? What was your pain points?
\n\nCHARLOTTE: We launched in mid-July last year with a physical showroom of around 500 pieces, which was just my archive. And then I'd built out a very rough and ready Shopify to kind of replicate what was going on in the physical realm but in the virtual realm. I hadn't shot all those pieces, so it was maybe only 200 pieces online. And then, within two weeks, I'd managed to grow the archive to well over a thousand pieces, and then I was like, ugh, I need to get all this shot now.
\n\nAnd it's me doing all of this. I'm working with a friend who's a photographer. And I style all the pieces on a ghost mannequin. I've already thought about some techie idea in my head about how to get around that in the future. I don't know if it's possible, but I can see it in my mind. We can build it. So, I just wanted them both to kind of work in the physical and virtual realm, but then, obviously, always going back to John's advice from Mexico that, you know, really start to look more into the tech.
\n\nAnd the tech's definitely taken over. We haven't built any yet. We are currently about to start raising because we want to build a fully functional marketplace that's industry-only. There's going to be a phase three, which will be a whole working platform that will streamline the working process from start to finish with lots of clever little things thrown in.
\n\nAnd I don't want to give too much away on this because it is just in my mind right now. Obviously, it's on paper, too, but I've just been looking at what else is going on in the fashion realm, in the fashion tech realm, and there's lots of exciting things. There was a stylist who reached out to me just before Christmas. She's actually an avatar stylist. So, I was really interested to speak to her. They're currently creating avatars from humans. So, soon, everyone's going to be able to have their own avatar if they want.
\n\nBut there's some really, really interesting and innovative stuff happening within the tech space, and there's definitely exciting things. And I can see a lot of scope in the future for The Fashion Library in terms of how we build the tech and adapt and how we kind of disrupt the industry, not just here in the UK, but globally.
\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you for sharing all of that. I think that's so interesting. And I also really love that you made the connection from surfing that got you excited about tech and excited about all these possibilities that you're describing. I'm just imagining, like, a little side conversation while you're paddling around out in the ocean [laughs]. But I don't know if that's how it really happened.
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\n\nVICTORIA: What's your method for engaging with the industry on this issue and building your customer discovery process?
\n\nCHARLOTTE: Obviously, it's something I'm really passionate about. I knew that there would be others out there, too. We've been hunting for the stylists currently, so LinkedIn, this platform called The Dots here, Instagram, obviously, and then also connecting, like, higher up the food chain with production companies, ad agencies, really kind of targeting it from the top bottom down.
\n\nAnd then, the last couple of months, we've been focused on finding some founding members who are busy working commercial stylists who love the idea of sustainability and rental and want to be early adopters and users of The Fashion Library. We've had great feedback from them. So, having that feedback from people and it being positive is like a driving force behind what we're trying to create and creating.
\n\nVICTORIA: Has there been anything surprising in your conversations that has caused you to maybe pivot in your strategy?
\n\nCHARLOTTE: I mean, definitely, when I first took the idea to my surfing friend in Mexico, he really made me pivot from bricks and mortar into tech. I was always going to build out a tech platform, but it was literally just going to be online rental, just because of how I like to work in the UK. I think talking to him that really opened my eyes.
\n\nAnd then, also, kind of going off and launching really then understanding what he'd said to me. Because I think after I launched, I realized that actually the bricks and mortar is nice, and it's really nice to have that space and the showroom as a showcase, but it's not where I want to be. I'm really excited and really focused to get the tech going. It's really exciting. And if we can create what I'm envisaging, I think it's going to be so useful.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And I love that you're really focused on a specific group and creating something for the industry that you're in. Can you share any other specific problems or challenges that a stylist may have with a wardrobe rental app versus a person like me who's just trying to, like, rent a dress for the weekend or something?
\n\nCHARLOTTE: Yeah. Well, that's the thing. I mean, rental is trending as a whole globally. So, there are a lot of consumer-facing rental apps and businesses out there. But the thing about stylists is it's quite a lonely career. Yes, you have your assistants, but until you're on set or with your clients, you're pretty much on your own. And I think after COVID, there was that real push for community.
\n\nAnd also, as stylists, we tend to sit on big archives that we've collected from jobs, or we've had custom pieces made that actually never went to set or got used. And we don't want to get rid of them because they're special to us, but at the same time, they're just kind of sitting there gathering dust. So, being able to put those out to your peers and know that they're, like, going to go onto an advertising job or a TV commercial, or, I don't know, a short film, or a feature film, or on talent is kind of exciting because they're almost getting repurposed for what they were originally purposed for.
\n\nAnd also, being able to make money from your dormant archive that's kind of a cool thing; it's a first. And knowing that it's not in the customer consumer realm, so you don't really have to worry too much about your amazing couture dress that you had for this artist and it was never worn going to a wedding and getting trashed.
\n\nWILL: I think I understand kind of what the flow is. So, for example, if tomorrow I want to become a stylist, before The Fashion Library, would I have to own all my pieces to even get into the space?
\n\nCHARLOTTE: It really depends what kind of realm you're working in. Obviously, if you're working on editorial and with celebrities, you tend to get pieces from brands because they give you pieces or loan you pieces for publicity, so it's kind of a two-way deal. However, when you're working on film, TV, commercials, advertising, you get given production budgets, like, wardrobe budgets.
\n\nSo, the current way that we work is we go out and shop, and we shop a lot. And we also fuel the fast fashion monster because a lot of the time, we have minimal budgets. We have this store in the UK, and it's called Primark. It's very, very, like, cheap and not good for the environment, and there's also ASOS as well. There's all this kind of online fast fashion places. And it's, like, you get the budget, and they want Prada, or they want designer and luxury. However, you've only got the budget to afford Primark or ASOS.
\n\nAnd, actually, what a lot of people don't realize is that stylists spend a lot. Say they get given a £2,000 or $2,000 budget; they will spend £6,000 or $6,000, and what isn't used, they then return. But because they're buying into the fast fashion brands, a lot of the time, once they do those returns, especially the online stores, it goes back, and it's actually landfilled or incinerated because the price point for them to repackage it is so minimal that it's actually cheaper for them to just get rid of it. So, we are actually really adding to the problem of fashion being a massive pollutant globally.
\n\nWILL: I didn't even catch that part, but yeah, that sounds amazing that not only, you know, if you said, "I had a budget for this movie or whatever. Can I get more pieces?" Because I'm looking at your website right now, and it looks cheaper to rent them than if I was buying them outright. So, I have more choices, but also, I'm saving the world. That sounds, yeah, that's a win, win, win.
\n\nCHARLOTTE: Yeah, that's so right. One of our slogans is, 'Saves time, money, and the planet.'
\n\nVICTORIA: It sounds like a core value that drives your everyday decisions. Are there any other values that help guide you as a founder as you're building your business?
\n\nCHARLOTTE: Just the positive feedback from everyone in the industry, whether that's from the producers, production companies, stylists, just everyone getting it because it is such a simple idea. So, it's just having that recognition and just knowing that what you've envisaged and you're creating is valued. That's a huge driving factor for me.
\n\nVICTORIA: And what does success Look like in six months or in five years from now?
\n\nCHARLOTTE: I think in six months, it will be to have a business that is growing and really living up to its foundations of helping stylists, making their lives easier, saving time, money, and the planet, growing the archive to double what it is currently. So, it's currently around 2,000 pieces. It'd be great to have 4,000-plus in the next six months. Continue to grow our user base, and just expand on that, and grow the connections that we're already creating within the industry with our affiliations with the green sustainability companies.
\n\nThere's some exciting things happening. I don't want to talk about them just because until they're, like, done, I'm always a bit like, oh, I don't know if I should put that out there yet. But yeah, generally, just, like, expanding and building the business and also completing the first raise and starting to build and develop the tech. That's something I'm really ready and excited to do. It's scary, but it's also super exciting.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. I can't wait to see what comes out of it because it seems like you can go so many directions with this. Because, like you were saying, like, brick and mortar versus tech and, like, that means you can reach anywhere that you can ship products to, instead of having to come to one location. Even nowadays, like, Amazon does a little bit of it, but like, when you're trying to buy furniture or something, you can put it in the room and see how it sits there and stuff.
\n\nSo, it's so many things because I know, like, fashion, the one thing I do know about fashion is how it looks on the person, so, like, you know, seeing how it looks on that person through technology. I'm so excited because I can see so many directions you can go with it.
\n\nCHARLOTTE: Will, you are right on the money there. I'm not going to say too much more, but yeah, you're definitely getting my vision a little bit. There's so much scope for it, too. And also, I mean, what you've kind of touched on is what I've envisaged. But, again, it's also, like, just keeping focused and keeping on that path for now because there's also so many different avenues further down that you can go into, too. Like, the potential and possibility with this is endless.
\n\nVICTORIA: What advice do you have for other founders out there who are building products in the fashion industry?
\n\nCHARLOTTE: That it's okay to make mistakes. You've actually just got to start. That's one of the things. You know, I worked on this for almost a year and a half before I brought it live. And I think I wanted to be as ready as possible. And knowing that it's okay to not have all the answers and, also, being able to learn really quickly and ask for help from people that you trust, and that age-old saying of trust your gut. If something with someone doesn't feel right, it's probably not, so just trusting that.
\n\nAnd also, just being able to pivot. You can't be so focused and rigid with what you're trying to create because it's going to, I mean, mine's changed so much from what I initially envisaged to where I'm at now, and it's going to keep changing. And that's okay because it needs to be adaptable in order to succeed and survive, I think.
\n\nAnd also, you're going to get a lot of people who are going to promise so much. At the end of the day, no one's going to work on it as hard as you are, and that's okay. But don't trust everyone who says they're going to do X, Y, Z for you because, usually, they're not. And they're always the ones that fall at the first hurdle.
\n\nWILL: One thing I love about doing this podcast is listening to entrepreneurs and their mindset and how they got to the place to even, like you said, start something. I feel like that's one of the biggest hurdles is just starting something. I want to understand more about your mindset. What is your wind in your sails? What motivates you?
\n\nCHARLOTTE: I got this idea. I've always had ideas but just generally just spoken about them and never really took them to fruition, whereas with this one, I was adamant I was going to do it. I actually ended up having my heart and soul ripped out of me and was, like, rock bottom, and this was already after I'd had this idea about this. And it was that need to, like, just heal and grow that I really just threw my all into it and was like, you know what? I'm going to try this. Like, I just suddenly found my path, and I just got so focused and determined on building this, so I haven't looked back yet.
\n\nTrusting your idea, knowing that it's okay to, like, make mistakes from time to time. But just being a little bit naïve, I've definitely learned a lot. But yeah, just having that determination and discipline to just keep going. Even when people who've promised you the world, like, ghost you or disappear on you, if it's your baby and it's your vision and you believe in it, you can make it happen.
\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you. That's really wonderful advice, and I think will really resonate with our listeners. Do you have anything else that you'd like to promote today?
\n\nCHARLOTTE: Yeah, so anyone involved in film, TV, and advertising production, or any stylists and costume designers, follow us on Instagram. Join our mailing list via our website, even if you're not London and UK-based, because we've got some really big, big things coming over the next 12 months. So, I know we're only London and the UK at the moment, but the vision is global. So, join us on our mission.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's so exciting. Thank you so much for coming on to the show and sharing your story with us.
\n\nCHARLOTTE: Thank you for having me.
\n\nVICTORIA: You're welcome.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nWILL: And me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.
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Kristian Ranta, the founder of Meru Health, shares the company's journey from its inception to its current status as a leading provider of mental health solutions. Kristian reflects on the decision to pivot Meru Health from a wellness-focused to a healthcare-centered company, emphasizing the importance of overcoming fears and listening to intuition in entrepreneurial pursuits. He discusses the challenges and rewards of building a healthcare startup, highlighting the complexities of navigating regulatory frameworks and securing insurance reimbursements.
\n\nThroughout the conversation, Kristian elaborates on Meru Health's unique approach to mental healthcare, which integrates therapy, coaching, and app-based interventions to offer users a holistic and personalized experience. He underscores the significance of community support in mental health treatment and explains how Meru Health's platform fosters connection among individuals facing similar challenges. Kristian also delves into the company's plans for expansion, both within the United States and globally, while addressing ongoing challenges such as securing insurance reimbursements and maintaining high standards for talent acquisition.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido, and with me today is Kristian Ranta, CEO and Founder for Meru Health, a new standard for mental health care. Kristian, thank you for joining me.
\n\nKRISTIAN: Thanks, Victoria. Great to be here today. Appreciate it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. To break the ice a little bit to get us started in the conversation here, I don't know if you can hear it, but I have a slight cold and congestion going on. And since you're a healthcare startup, I thought I would ask you, what is your favorite comfort food when you're sick?
\n\nKRISTIAN: I don't know whether it's a comfort food or not, but I think kind of what I always consume if I get, like, some flu symptoms or stuff like that it's ginger, honey, and then garlic. I try to combine these things, and it's semi-tasty. Like, it depends on, like, how strong you make it, but it's definitely effective. So, it's been my go-to thing when I get sick.
\n\nVICTORIA: Me too. I like to try to put all those things into a soup of some kind [laughs], some chicken soup. I've learned how to make some sort of version of congee, which is, like, a rice porridge, which I love because you can kind of just sit it on the stove, and it cooks all day. And you could add in all those flavors, and it comes together really nicely.
\n\nFor me, I think that's really nice to think about what you like to eat when you're sick because when you're sick, it affects everything else going on in your body. So, I'm sure you have some personal experiences about how your mental health and your physical health are all interrelated.
\n\nKRISTIAN: I mean, totally. Actually, like, I've been a biohacker for quite a while. So, I've been, like, just trying a bunch of things, like, on the physical health side and, like, exercise. And I'm from Finland originally, so a lot of cold exposure, sauna, swimming in the icy water, stuff like that. And then, of course, a lot of, like, different dietary tests that I've done over the years. And I think there's, yeah, I've recognized that there's a huge connection, and it's like the mind and the body are not, like, disconnected. They're in a way the same.
\n\nPersonally, also, like, a big piece kind of for me in this regard has been my journey of meditation. So, I started maybe, like, 10, 12 years ago, started meditating every day, and then I've done a bunch of different retreats and kind of dug deeper. Especially through meditation, I've learned very [inaudible 02:15] to experience the connectedness of my thoughts, and my emotions, and feelings, and the body. So, anyway, that's, like, one of my favorite topics, so...
\n\nVICTORIA: So, it sounds like you've always had this interest in the mind-body connection and how to optimize your health. How did that lead you, or what about your background led you to found Meru Health?
\n\nKRISTIAN: I'm from Finland originally. So, I moved to the States in 2018 with Meru Health with my current company. But way back, I studied computer science, did my undergraduate and graduate studies in Finland. And then I kind of, like, ended up working at a healthcare company, a startup company, while I was still studying. And I worked there for a couple of years. And this company was a clinical trial software company, so making it easier for pharmaceutical companies to collect data in patient trials for, like, new drugs, and new developments, and stuff like that.
\n\nI was basically at that company for a couple of years, and that was my first dip into healthcare and technology, the intersection. And I got so excited, and I realized that, hey, this is a place where I can use my excitement for technology and my skills and all that stuff. But I can also then, like, see the immediate improvement in people's lives and how we can help others, and that kind of resonated with me.
\n\nSo, I quit after two years and then founded my first own business, which was in diabetes, so one of my co-founders back then is a diabetic. And that's kind of, like, how I went into healthcare. And, for me, then learning the mind and body connection started at the same time. Pretty much I kind of, you know, again, mentioned that I've been meditating for a while. So, I started meditating, and I started just learning about these things and just, like, became super curious to understand the human experience on a more broad basis. So, that's how I started.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And I'm curious if you could talk more about the mind-body connection and also maybe to describe, like, how these issues are treated currently. Being in the United States, it's like, you have a doctor for your body, and then one for your brain, and one for your teeth, and one for your feet. And it's kind of interesting that it's broken up that way. But what's your take on how healthcare treats people now for mental health versus physical health symptoms, and what would be the ideal state?
\n\nKRISTIAN: I think that's one of the fundamental challenges of our time, that there's all these silos in healthcare. Because, again, what we know already today is that, like, your emotions and your thoughts have a huge impact on your physical body, and, you know, you can experience that yourself. Everyone can experience that by doing meditation, and yoga, and things like this. And you can start learning and feeling and seeing that, like, very concretely in your own ways.
\n\nThere's also something called biofeedback, which you can do with some of the apps like Aura and, like, Headspace and others. And then you can you do it with some wearables like with Fitbits and others, where through your breathing, you can, like, instantly see, actually, the changes in your heart rate variability, meaning that your nervous system state changes in real-time. So, some of these things were, like, eye-openers for me.
\n\nAnd I realized that if we, like, keep on focusing on some areas separately, that's going to be challenging because, you know, we're not going to see the full picture. And that's exactly what Western medicine is doing today. On the other hand, I think there's hope because, you know, there's more and more interest and more and more, like, bridging the gap here going on with companies like Meru, but also with, like, many, many other companies and many other providers and practitioners that are working in this domain.
\n\nThat's kind of, like, fundamentally the challenge that if we, let's say, we go to a physical doctor, like, a primary care doctor, they never, almost never, address any of the mental health things, although we all know that they have a huge impact on your physical health. Like, there's a ton of research that stress has a big impact on your diabetes, as an example, and your glucose balance if you're a diabetic.
\n\nLike, usually, no doctor, you know, your endocrinologist or diabetes doctor will not talk about the stress or will not really, like, address the mental side of your diabetes. So, I think still, like, disconnected, but there are numerous areas where reconnecting these things better will be beneficial. And that's, again, one of my sort of personal goals in life and my mission to, like, drive this change [inaudible 06:06] in the future.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, that makes sense to me as someone...I grew up with a parent who had type 1 diabetes their entire life. And what's also, like what you're saying, what's not discussed is if you get a diagnosis like diabetes, that also has an effect on your mental health. And you can stress about it. It can lead to depression. It can kind of make everything a lot worse. Do you also have any personal experience that led you to be really motivated in solving this problem?
\n\nKRISTIAN: One thing that I've openly shared is that I, unfortunately, I lost my oldest brother, Peter, to suicide. You know, the story with him, he was struggling with mental health challenges for a long time. He got access to care in terms of, like, he got medication. And, you know, prescription medications, unfortunately, for him, just made it worse. And he ended up, like, not really, like, benefiting, but just actually, like, struggling more and more.
\n\nAnd that's actually one of the things, also, what I realized when I founded Meru Health after my, you know, I used to be in diabetes with my first ventures. But now building my third healthcare business, Meru Health; it got started from my realization that the mental health industry is broken. Like, most people are only getting access to psychiatric drugs, as an example, as a sole remedy. Like, you know, they don't have access to a therapist. They don't have access to any kind of support.
\n\nThey just see a PCP for 10 minutes, and they get a prescription, and off you go. And then the PCP, you may not see the PCP anymore at all, or maybe in, like, three months, you have, like, a phone call with them or whatever. So, like, that's kind of the experience also with my brother through which I realized this is not adequate. This is crazy. Like, if that's the way we're trying to treat these conditions, it's not going to work.
\n\nAnd through that, I did a lot of research and a lot of investigations in my early days before founding Meru Health after I had sold my last company. And what I realized, there's roughly, like, two-thirds of people that get access to mental health care, like, either psychiatric medication or maybe some therapy. Two-thirds of people still they don't respond to that care at all. One-third will respond, and only one-sixth will actually reach full remission of symptoms, meaning that they are completely in the clear with their symptoms.
\n\nSo, that was kind of a crazy revelation for me that, like, two-thirds, like, are not getting anything out of these treatments. So, that's how I kind of eventually then realized that, okay, we got to rethink this model. Like, this model isn't working. Like, if we are only giving people mainly access to these two remedies and only, like, one-third's getting any benefits, then this is, like, really bad. Like, we got to do something about it.
\n\nAnd that's again why, you know, I founded Meru Health and Meru Health being about a more holistic approach, not just about, like, talk therapy or psychological aspects, but also sleep, nutrition, biofeedback, learning to regulate your body, your nervous system. There's a community, peer support community, and there are providers. You work with providers as well. But that's on the background why I kind of became super passionate about mental health care and what were some of the insights that I gained where I realized that this system is, like, so broken; we got to do something about it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, I have so many questions about Meru Health. But before we get into that, you mentioned you had started two other healthcare companies before this one. So, as a serial entrepreneur, what lessons were the most important that you took from those previous experience going into starting Meru Health?
\n\nKRISTIAN: There's many. So, I mean, like, first of all, when I founded my first company, I was, like, straight out of school, like, pretty young. And, I mean, like, I struggle so bad. Oh, it was such a hard journey. Like, it was a medical device company, glucose monitoring. So, founding a medical device company in Finland back in the day straight out of school was, like, a huge struggle. Eventually, we, you know, we sold the business after, like, seven years or so, but it was, like, a big learning curve for me, a lot of blood, sweat, and tears [laughs] for sure.
\n\nI think few learnings from that first business were it's extremely important to design your culture, and, like, culture is everything. Like, culture eats strategy for breakfast. So, if you don't have a culture that's clearly thought through and designed, it's going to end up being whatever. Like, I mean, like, every organization has a culture, but, like, mostly, the culture has not been intentionally designed.
\n\nAnd why that's important is that if you just let it grow weeds, whatever, it will grow in various different directions, but it does not necessarily serve its purpose that you may have had in mind. And, again, what I realized is that when you hire people, and you start growing the company, it's extremely important to, like, calibrate the values of, like, why are you doing this? What's important for this culture? Like, how do you want to work? Why do you want to work? And then, like, what are the kind of different rules and rituals and, like, habits of the organization that will make it successful in its mission?
\n\nI never knew that when I founded my first company, and the culture became, whatever, erratic. Like, you know, it was just, like, really hard, also, because of that. And we were not able to recruit the best people or the right kind of people for the right roles because we weren't clear on, like, what are the values? Like, why would someone want to work with us? And how to streamline these things.
\n\nSo, I think that's the single biggest learning for me so far on my entrepreneurial journey that you got to very intentionally think about why do you want to build a company, whatever company you're founding. Why do you want to do it? What's going to get you up from bed every day to do your thing? And then, like, how do you want to work? Like, how do you want to work, yourself, accountability? You know, all these things. And what do you expect from others? Like, how do you want to work with other people?
\n\nSo, that's kind of, like, what we actually...with my current business, Meru Health, like, we had, like, a value workshop with my co-founders before we founded the company. And we actually spent a lot of time in aligning and thinking about, like, these questions. Like, why do we want to do this? And with Meru's case, all of us founders we have mental health struggles in our family, so we all kind of came together because of that. We wanted to, like, help fix, at least make a dent in the system.
\n\nAnd then, you know, we kind of spend a lot of time thinking about also, like, how do we want to work with each other? The listeners thinking of founding a company, it's just really, really important to think about, like, also, how do you work? Like, what's the level of accountability with each other? And then, how do you, like, if you hire the first employees, how do you also translate these things to them as well so that there's cohesion, that there's, like, alignment in the team?
\n\nBecause if all the arrows, so to speak, if they all point out in different directions, you're not going to create momentum, which you'll need to be able to break through and get to your first milestones as a company. So, I think that's the most important. I could, you know, talk about that for a day or so, but that's, like, the most essential learning for me personally, which I've applied, like, carefully after that.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, I can imagine that having a clear vision and a set of values that you all know you're working together helps create a good emotional environment for everyone who's at the company, including you who's going to be repeating what the values are, and what the purpose is, and what you're trying to get done as the CEO.
\n\nKRISTIAN: Totally, yeah. Yeah, and, I mean, like, I can also, like, maybe continue on one more point there. One of the values for Meru Health we actually chose compassion and kind of kindness. Why did we do that? Like, many people have asked us like, "Why do you have, like, compassion or kind...like, why is it relevant for your startup?" Well, I think it's extremely relevant because, like, there's not enough kindness in the world. If you're kind of intentionally building kindness into your organization, you know, you're also going to enjoy the journey so much more yourself.
\n\nBecause myself and my co-founders, we all figured that, like, we've all been part of other startups and being in, you know, at consulting firms, and we've been grinding like hell at different places. And, you know, it can be exciting. It can be fun. But it also can be pretty, like, challenging sometimes. But we figured that if we are able to instill or kind of, like, inject kindness into this kind of founding spirit of our company, into the culture of our company, Meru Health, you know, it's going to be so much more fun for us and also for all the future employees.
\n\nWe know it's going to be hard. Like, building healthcare businesses and healthcare companies is really, really hard. It can take, like, a long time. It's a marathon. It's not a sprint. So, you kind of, like, need to do it for a long time and be committed and hold yourself and the team accountable. But you can do it in a way that's fun, and you can do it in a way that's, like, kind. You can be respectful, and you can be kind towards others. And it's going to be much more of a pleasant journey. So, that's one concrete example of, like, what came out of our value workshop and why we chose kindness or compassion as one of our values.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think that's so important and a really great foundation to build your team on and to really find the best talent that fits what you're trying to do. So, once you founded the company, you had your values workshop. What were some of the early discoveries in your process for founding Meru Health that maybe led to a pivot or a change in the way you were approaching the problem?
\n\nKRISTIAN: I had a pretty good sense of, like, what the problem was. So, as I described, like, I did a lot of research on the problem and, like, really understanding what are the caveats in the current mental health care system? Like, what's not working? So, I had a pretty clear understanding. And, again, like, having built other healthcare businesses before, I kind of, like, had a lot of experience already in general, like, how to build healthcare businesses. So, that was kind of a helpful starting point for me.
\n\nBut what happened, actually, in the early days was that we first started from a more preventative perspective. So, actually, our first product was more of kind of a coach-led or a kind of a...it was more, like, a coach-led approach to workplace wellness and prevention of mental health problems. And we kind of built an app-based program where, you know, we'd have a coach work with you through video calls and through chat, and then you'd have, like, different lessons and different activities in the app on a week-by-week basis. And, in many ways, like, that worked pretty well. Like, people were excited. We got engagement, and we sold that to, like, a bunch of enterprise customers. And there was excitement.
\n\nBut we realized a couple of things in the early days, which is really important, and this was, like, the first half [inaudible 15:57] when we had founded the company, that a lot of people didn't really have a clear problem when they came to us. Thus, the engagement wasn't there. So, people were kind of, like, just "surfing," quote, unquote. They were coming in and testing and trying it out. But they maybe were stressed and stuff, but they weren't really, like, having a real problem that they wanted to solve so that they would actually spend time with the product and, actually, like, learning skills, changing behavior, things like this. So, that was one big realization for us.
\n\nThe other thing we realized was that in our societies, unfortunately, prevention is not yet valued, meaning that there's no money in prevention. There's no...it's really hard to build a business when there's no, like, existing payment pathways or existing reimbursement from insurance companies. Many of these structures are missing in our environment or in our society, meaning that then we kind of realized that it's really hard to scale this kind of a business because it's really hard to make an impact because no one's willing to pay for prevention.
\n\nEven though we had, like, great results already, and there's some good evidence already out there, but still, it's not the same as, like, the healthcare industry definitely exists and is working. And there's a problem, and you need to fix the problem. And whatever sickness or illness it is, there's kind of reasons and investments for fixing this problem.
\n\nSo, we pivoted this to be a healthcare company, not a wellness company. We actually applied...pretty much applied the same product idea. We just replaced the coach with a therapist. And then we basically still had the app-based experience for, like, learning, like, homework, things like this. And that's kind of how it, like, structurally changed. So, that was our pivot.
\n\nWe've actually only pivoted once, and I'd say, like, fairly minor pivot even because the same product, same idea is still there. It's more just, like, a little bit of a twist on, like, okay, we're not trying to, like, prevent things in a way. We're not trying to sell it as a preventative, but we started selling it as a healthcare intervention.
\n\nAnd maybe one more thing I think it's going to be essential or maybe interesting for everyone listening. I actually had the idea of building the healthcare intervention from the beginning, but I was too afraid to, actually, like, pursue it. I was too afraid because I felt that, oh, like, if we're going to build a healthcare company, like, it's harder, you know, it's going to be, like, complicated. We have, like, this new approach, the mind and body approach. It's going to be, like, novel. It's, like, hard, you know. So, I had all these fears in my head, which kind of prevented me from, like, really jumping.
\n\nMy intuition was already telling me that this is the way to go, but I pushed it aside. And I was kind of like, hey, it's going to be easier to just, like, start with this preventative angle with, like, you know, you don't need clinical providers. You can have, like, coaches. It's going to be easier, you know? So, I was kind of, like, taking the easy path. I was kind of, like, too much listening to my fears, not my intuition.
\n\nAnd, eventually, we ended up pivoting, and we ended up where I had actually imagined the whole thing being from the beginning. But I wanted to tell this because, at least for me, on my journey, it's been, like, many times that I realized that sometimes these things are, like, if you distill them to the essence, like, what's the essential question here, it's like, is it the choice of fear or choice of love? And is your choice in life in, you know, being a founder, in life in general, is it coming from a place of fear, or is it coming from a place of love?
\n\nThat's something which I think was kind of another key learning for me that I was so often making decisions that were based off of a fear. And I was kind of, you know, choosing things because I was afraid of something versus not being, like, excited about something or believing in something.
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\n\nVICTORIA: Well, one thing I've heard from therapy is that the feeling of fear, the answer is more information. And maybe you could tell me a little bit more and our listeners, like, what makes creating healthcare apps scary? [laughs] What are some of those challenges that are different from what you might expect just building a wellness app that's not having health data involved?
\n\nKRISTIAN: Yeah. Healthcare is, of course, like, regulated, and there's, like, you know, there are certain standards for care depending on whether it's mental health care, diabetes, or cardiology, or other areas. Like, there are certain things, like, you know, you need to have licensed providers who can practice medicine. Or if you have a medical device, you need to get FDA approvals. So, it's, like, a way, way heavier, you know, process. And it, like, has a lot more regulations and rules and different legal implications, data security implications, patient health information, you know, HIPAA, all these other things.
\n\nSo, it's just a much, much more regulated space in general, and what that means is that it's slower. It's going to be slower to build. It's going to be slower to validate. The feedback loop is going to be slower. It's going to be more resource-intensive. You're going to need to invest in more resources. It's going to need more, like, expertise. You're going to need, like, regulatory expertise, like medical, clinical, all these other things that you don't need when you're building a wellness company or a product. So, it's just a lot heavier and just, like, way more regulated.
\n\nAnd the risks are also much more prominent in a way that you, as the CEO or the founder, or you as an operator, may end up being challenged even in court if something goes wrong. So, there's just more risks, and you got to think about, like, insurance. And, like, that's broadly speaking, like, some of the challenges of building a healthcare company versus building a wellness company.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, as a founder of previous healthcare companies, you might have already built those networks to get access to people who can help you with those things. But if you were a new founder and you know you want to start a health tech company, how would you go about building your team to fill in some of those gaps around the areas you need help in?
\n\nKRISTIAN: It's going to be a learning curve. There's, like, no single book or no single place where you can learn all these things. But I'd encourage, like, there's some great materials online for sure in, like, learning, like, what to consider when building a healthcare company. ChatGPT or Google will help you kind of get started on some of the essentials.
\n\nBut then I would, like, pretty quickly, I would try to, like, immerse myself in the different circles or communities where there are other healthcare founders, where there are people who've already been building healthcare businesses, where there are maybe advisors or maybe, like, accelerators for startup companies. You want to learn these things from people who've already been doing these things. You don't want to try to, like, learn everything from books. It's going to be too slow, and you don't know what you don't know. So, you don't know how to, like, ask the right questions.
\n\nIf you talk to people who've already been doing these things, they will be able to tell you, "Hey, you're not asking this and that question. Like, that's an important thing. Like, you should consider A, B, or C." So, I would say that, like, surround yourself with people who've been building healthcare businesses before and maybe try to get into an accelerator or just, like, find advisors, more, like, experienced people.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. It's all about community, which brings me back to the question I had about Meru Health. You mentioned there's a community aspect built into the app, and I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that feature and how it plays into the whole model.
\n\nKRISTIAN: Community is important. So, a lot of the people who struggle with mental health problems also very often feel that they are very much alone, so that was the case with my brother. Like, he also felt very much alone with his depression that, like, no one will understand me. Like, I'm the only one who's feeling like this. I'm feeling isolated. But there are so many people who are struggling with the same kind of thing or same kinds of emotions and feelings and symptoms.
\n\nAnd through our community feature, we have, like, people who are experiencing similar issues going through the Meru, you know, intervention. They can now, like, connect with each other, and they can, like, reflect with each other and see what's going on. It's a moderated kind of a forum type of a thing. So, licensed providers are always moderating and, you know, also being part of the discussions there. So, they're also contributing.
\n\nBut it's very much of a place for people to reflect and see that, like, these struggles that I'm going through are not just...it's not just me. Like, there's also other people. You don't need to feel so alone. And you can share with others and see that, hey, there's ways to heal. There's ways to get better. You know, you're not alone struggling with these things.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think that's a really powerful point about making that connection, making that community, and feeling like you're not alone. What other features make the Meru Health app unique in solving this problem?
\n\nKRISTIAN: We are basically a clinic, like, you know, we call it a virtual clinic. So, we have providers. There are, like, licensed therapists. We have doctors, psychiatrists. We have coaches. We have care coordinators. So, these are all real human beings that are actually practicing medicine and supporting our members or our patients.
\n\nAnd then, we have an app-based program, and the app is basically your home for accessing the Meru services. So, whether you're doing video calls or whether, you know, you can do them through the app. Or you can be chatting with your providers, or you can get access to, like, you know, support from the care coordinators if you need to navigate your insurance benefits or things like this.
\n\nAnd then, basically, in the app, you're going through different modalities of care. So, one of the unique things about Meru, like, why we built the company, why the company exists, is to kind of make this more holistic or more, like, a lifestyle medicine approach to mental health care, make it available for people. And it includes not only talk therapy or cognitive behavioral therapy, which is the normal typical way of, like, doing talk therapy. It also includes a lot of, like, mindfulness practices, a lot of...sleep kind of is a big topic where we help people understand that, like, there's no mental health without proper sleep. And it's also a physical health issue if you're not sleeping. So, sleep is essential.
\n\nThere are many things that you can learn, you know, like some sleep hygiene things, meaning that, like, you shouldn't do, like, blue lights just before bed. You shouldn't do, like, exercise just before bed. You shouldn't eat big meals before bed. So, there's many, many things that you kind of, like, once you learn to know, you'll improve, like, your sleep dramatically. And once you improve your sleep, you improve your health. Like, it's a direct correlation. So, these are things that we teach people as part of one of the modules there.
\n\nThen there's, like, nutrition, as we call it, food and mood. So, there's a huge connection between, like, certain nutrients or diets with, like, mental health. I'll just give you a really quick example. Processed foods are really detrimental to brain health and, mental health, and also physical health. But, like, most doctors, if you're talking to most healthcare professionals, most, like, primary care doctors, if you go to see a primary care doctor about any mental health concerns you may have, like, 99% of them won't tell you anything about your diet. They won't tell you anything about processed foods being very detrimental.
\n\nAnd, again, so we are kind of including things like these, which are all based on science. Like, there's a ton of research behind these things. And we've also, ourselves, done a lot of research with Stanford, with Harvard, with other universities. But that's kind of another example of, like, some of the essentials that go beyond just the standard talk therapy in helping people more holistically learn skills, learn knowledge to help them get better.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really cool. So, what does success look like six months from now or five years from now? It's a long process, so...
\n\nKRISTIAN: We're now, like, 130 people at the moment at Meru Health. So, we've kind of, like, come quite far from the early days of, like, just building the product, getting the first customers, doing the first validation, publishing the first research studies, first clinical studies showing that this is effective, so forth. But there's still...it feels like it's day one still because we're going to feel that we're just getting started with, like, you know, we work mainly with insurance companies. So, there's a lot of insurance companies like Cigna, and Aetna, and United, Optum, some of these ones that we work with, some Blue Shield Blue Cross. But there's so much opportunity.
\n\nSo, we're now available for, like, 30,000,000 Americans. Obviously, there's way more many Americans we could be available for. So, we're constantly working in making our footprint bigger so that more and more insurance companies would reimburse for Meru's services so that people in different states and different areas can also, like, access these services if they want to.
\n\nAnd, like, I mean, as I mentioned earlier, building a healthcare company is a marathon. It's not a sprint. So, we've now been building, like, six-plus years, you know, probably, like, another five, six years until we'll be, like, fully, like, reaching all the people in the U.S., hopefully, and so forth. And then, you know, we actually founded the company...initially, we founded from a place of, like, we want to build a global company.
\n\nWe want to democratize access to these kinds of, like, new healthcare services also, beyond just being in the U.S. The U.S. is just a really great place to start these kinds of companies, in many ways, the perfect place. But we also are, you know, we're looking at expanding into some European countries in the future and, hopefully, even beyond that. But that's something what's happening now and what we're thinking about for the future.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. So, it's getting to expand your footprint with who has access to it in the United States and then even looking beyond, globally, and seeing how wide you can reach.
\n\nKRISTIAN: Yep. Exactly.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. Okay. And then, what are the challenges that you see? What are those blockers or issues on the horizon that would prevent you from reaching your goals?
\n\nKRISTIAN: I guess one challenge we're facing is that, as I mentioned, we work with insurance companies quite a lot, so some of these big names that I talked about and some more, like, regional smaller insurance companies. But one of the things is that since our care philosophy and the modalities of care we offer, like the sleep and nutrition, the biofeedback wearable, some of these other things that are not typical to mental health care, that are not conventional mental health care, getting reimbursements and getting this kind of a more comprehensive approach, getting it reimbursed by insurance companies is actually quite a challenge.
\n\nBecause insurance companies typically reimburse for very select standardized and kind of known services and, like, standard types of care. And it's harder for them to reimburse for something which is, like, novel and very different, even though we've published now 14 clinical studies, including, like, randomized control studies, which is the gold standard in clinical research, and then also, like, large, large, like, thousands of people, single-arm trials, which are, like, more like population trials.
\n\nSo, we have, like, a ton of evidence to show that this is very effective, actually, roughly 2 times more effective than standard of mental health care. So, it's very much more effective, and people are maintaining the gains. We've published also our, like, one-year and our two-year data. So, there's a ton of that evidence there, but it's still hard to bring in this kind of innovation into the market. That's one of the challenges that we're working on.
\n\nThen, it's always a challenge to find the best talent, to hire great talent. I've learned over my career to always challenge myself in, like, making sure that we always think through, like, how can we hire the best talent for every role and not let your standards, like, drop. If you're growing fast, you got to hire more people. That is extremely, extremely important. And it happens so easily that when you start growing faster, you got to hire for multiple roles. You actually start, like, lowering your standards because you face pressures on, like, hiring people faster and growing faster.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I wanted to ask you, too, about your background in computer science. And as you're thinking about scaling and expanding globally, what are you thinking about on the infrastructure platform side for the technology that you've built?
\n\nKRISTIAN: What we've built so far is the patient-facing app, so that's the home for the patient to kind of access our services. For our providers, we have a network of providers that we also built them an electronic medical record. So, we kind of, you know, from the start realized that there's not an electronic medical record product out there that would fit our different way of providing care. So, we actually built that in-house by ourselves, so we have that now.
\n\nAnd then, we also have a kind of a dashboard for our providers where there's, like, traffic lights. So, the system actually, like, sorts people based on different data inputs and places them in order of priority. Like, if someone's reporting suicidality as an example, that's going to be a red flag on a provider's dashboard. These different, like, categories, like, the red flags and then, like, more, like, amber and then green. So, that system is something we're constantly developing and fine-tuning on, like, improving the algorithms of detecting issues.
\n\nAnd then, on the other hand, helping our providers to focus their time on the right patient at the right time because that's also really critical in care. So, there's plenty of work going on there. We're also working on our SOC 2, which is kind of this security standard in IT. So, we're working on our SOC 2 project currently internally. So, that's a pretty big one for us to mature into that. And yeah, so the platform is kind of evolving. We're kind of building more features.
\n\nWe're also building more of these different kinds of modules for people who are struggling with different kinds of issues. So, a concrete example, how can we better support people with post-traumatic stress disorder or people who have, like, panic attacks? And so, there's these kinds of more, like, nuanced areas of mental health where we can double down on by building different modularity and more individualized care pathways for people.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's wonderful. I love that. Thank you for sharing all of it. Is there anything else that you would like to promote today?
\n\nKRISTIAN: Yeah. Well, hey, thanks so much. I really appreciate you having me on this podcast today. What I, again, found useful as a founder, as an operator, is to take good care of yourself. Like, it's really important to also remember not to exhaust your resources constantly, but, like, try to kind of find ways to take care of yourself as a founder, as an entrepreneur, and also kind of, like, nurture yourself. Because, otherwise, I have lots of founder friends, lots of entrepreneur friends, and so many times people are, like, exhausting themselves. And they are kind of, like, running too fast or, like, trying to do this and that more and, you know, just do more and more all the time.
\n\nYou know, while that's important, it's important to be running. It's important to be kind of productive as a founder. It's also like a trap, you know. People also fall into a trap if they're trying to do too much at the same time. It's really important to focus on rather fewer things, and it's also very important to take care of yourself. So, self-care, self-compassion, I think, those are important themes that are not too often talked about when it comes to entrepreneurship, but I think that's something I've learned to be important.
\n\nVICTORIA: It sounds like the value that you said as a company also applies for you as an individual, like, having compassion towards yourself and kindness. I think that's a really beautiful way to wrap the episode here unless...do you have any questions for me or thoughtbot?
\n\nKRISTIAN: I've been following you a bit. And just curious, like, what's coming up for you?
\n\nVICTORIA: For me personally, well, I bought a new house, so we're, like, renovating that in California. So, I'm actually switching to, like, maybe trying to do a little bit less travel compared to what I did last year, but going to more local things and getting, like, our San Diego CTO Lunches spun up again and meeting people here who are building really cool things. Lots of great health tech companies in San Diego also.
\n\nWhat else do we have going on? I'm definitely going to be climbing. I'm going climbing on Saturday. And then probably in LA, I'll go up and do some climbing the next couple of weeks. So, I'm looking forward to having a little bit more balance to life this year [chuckles], the best-laid plans. But yeah, that's what's coming up and, just trying to, like, enjoy where I live, enjoy my family and friends and the companies that I work at, and do a good job. That's it.
\n\nKRISTIAN: Great. Well, hey, appreciate it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for coming on, and being a part of the show, and sharing your story.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on X, formerly known as Twitter, @victori_ousg, or on Mastodon @thoughtbot.social/vguido.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.
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Host Will Larry delves into the innovative world of Hera Fertility with its Founder and CEO, Thiv Paramsothy. Hera Fertility emerges as a telemedicine-first provider aimed at revolutionizing the fertility journey for couples. Thiv shares his journey from a tech enthusiast in Toronto to a healthcare entrepreneur driven by a desire to make healthcare more accessible and efficient. His ventures, including Hera Fertility, are born out of personal observations and frustrations with the existing healthcare system, particularly its inefficiencies and the barriers to accessing necessary care.
\n\nThiv noticed a significant gap in the fertility treatment landscape—long waiting times for appointments, excessive costs, and the overall inconvenience and emotional toll of traditional fertility treatments. Hera Fertility aims to address these issues by offering affordable, convenient, and less invasive alternatives to IVF, leveraging telemedicine to provide immediate access to care, diagnostics, and medication.
\n\nThe episode also highlights Hera Fertility's unique business model and focus on enhancing patient care through technology and personalized support. Thiv explains how the company can offer services at a fraction of the cost of traditional IVF while improving the quality of care and patient experience. By employing a telemedicine-first approach, Hera Fertility democratizes access to fertility care, especially in underserved areas, and introduces a more supportive and patient-centered approach to fertility treatment.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry, and with me today is Thiv Paramsothy, Founder and CEO of Hera Fertility. Hera Fertility is a telemedicine-first provider for couples who want to boost their chances of conceiving. They deliver convenient testing, affordable at-home meds, and concierge care, helping patients overcome infertility with better odds and faster turnaround time at only a tenth of the cost of IVF. Thiv, thank you for joining me.
\n\nTHIV: Thank you for having me. Super excited.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I'm excited to talk about this. And I know this is a huge issue, so I'm excited to hear kind of your heart behind it, why you started the company. But before we dive in that, tell me a little bit about you.
\n\nTHIV: So, I was born and raised in Toronto, always loved technology and looking at different softwares and all that, but never good enough to code. But went to Waterloo, which is a fancy tech school up in Canada. That's where I really developed my passion for healthcare and tech. So, at that point, it was called, like, something nerdy like health informatics, but now people call it digital health. From there, I kind of learned what was going on in the health system, what could be better about it, and that's kind of where I wanted to focus on in my career.
\n\nAnd then, after college, I was realizing quickly that I wasn't a corporate guy, did it for a bit, and I realized I was very much an entrepreneur. So, I started doing startups after that, and I'm now in my third one. But all my startups really focus on how do we better the healthcare system and how do we make it better for patients?
\n\nWILL: I absolutely love that because I have three young kids, and it's absolutely frustrating at times dealing with the healthcare system because, I'm just going, to be honest–sometimes it's who you know or what type of money you have and things like that. And it's frustrating that it feels like, at times, you have to be at this right spot at the right time to get the certain healthcare, so I really appreciate that you are diving into this and trying to solve a huge issue.
\n\nTHIV: Yeah, I hear you because I see that so often. That's a lot of times what inspires me to go off and do my startup. At that time, like, Hera, exactly that was one of the reasons why we started Hera.
\n\nBut the way I look at it is that if you look at the healthcare system we have, it's incredible the miracles we could do and the solutions that we have and how we can save people's lives, how we can treat them to live longer. But a lot of times just getting your foot into it and finding the right care is the difficult part. And don't get me started on the barriers and obstacles that are there, from cost to just pure access. So, that's what really motivates me because, in my mind, I'm like, oh, this should be available to the masses, and that way, you know, society grows. Everyone is happier. And I think then we move along and become better.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, definitely. Were there friends, family that were going through this that kind of helped you, like, say, "I need to create this company to help the healthcare?" or what was the reason behind starting Hera?
\n\nTHIV: Yeah. So, with Hera, what happened was I was at that age where all my friends and family were moving to the next chapter of their life and wanting to build a family. A lot of them were coming to me and talking to me and telling me this. And I've become that person where a lot of times, if they need any advice on where to go, what clinic to attend, or what doctor, I try to help there because that's kind of where my mind goes to. I'll know where the right doctor is or which is the best one, even though I'm not a doctor. I've just worked with so many of them.
\n\nAnd so, many of my friends would come to me and share those stories. And I started to hear it more and more. And then, as I was following along in their journey, I realized, like, how hard it is for them to even enter in and get seen by someone; a lot of times, it's like a 6, 12-month wait. Then, on top of that, being able to pay for a lot of these treatments, $20,000, $50,000; if surrogacy, it can go all the way to $100,000. And then, lastly, like, just how inconvenient it is.
\n\nOne of the things that I was shocked by was, like, how many people had to quit their jobs to go through treatment; 1 in 5 is the latest stat to go through something like IVF. So, all these things are against them, but what really stood out to me was the people that needed help for fertility were probably the most driven and resilient people. And, look, I'm an entrepreneur. I have to be resilient, but I think these people are even more resilient. And so, for me, I was like, there's got to be a better way for people that are going through infertility. That's really what drove me to start a company, quit my job, do the whole shebang there.
\n\nWILL: I wanted to paint a picture because I'm kind of tearing up already thinking of some of the people who've gone through that journey because, like you said, it is not an easy journey. Can you paint the picture of kind of what that journey looks like? Because, from my experience, I know it's not like, oh, I need to go get IVF. It starts way before that, many doctors' appointments. It's a whole thing. I want the audience to kind of hear the whole story and paint that picture of what someone who needs IVF or anything in that category what they're going through.
\n\nTHIV: Where my mind goes to is think of a couple who, like, just got married or been in a long-term relationship, and now they've decided that they want to start having kids. What typically happens is, you know, usually, you just go, yeah, we're going to try, and then that's what they do for that time. And so, they're happy. They're excited because this is, like, a new chapter. And what I picture is as they're trying, they just keep trying. And they're, like, constantly every month or every so often when they're checking, using pregnancy tests, they're just seeing the negative result, negative result, negative result. And so, that just keeps happening over and over again.
\n\nAfter that point is when they go, okay, maybe we need to seek some help. What ends up happening is they go to a doc, and a doc goes, "Hey, just keep trying." That's literally the advice you have to give. That's based on the guidelines. So, no test. Nothing. It's just the fact that it will happen on its own. Don't stress. And so, they keep doing that, and they keep seeing negative results. And that happens for a long time. Most people end up doing is they spend about three to four years on this journey.
\n\nAnd where it really tests you, it tests your, you know, relationship with one another. It really questions yourself. You know, on the woman's side, like, they feel lonely. They feel like when they go to events, they see other people celebrating. They're getting pregnant. They're frustrated as to why. So, it puts emotional toll there. And then, also, for the man, it puts a lot of pressure and makes them question their masculinity. This ends up happening.
\n\nFrom there, they start getting testing done. It just becomes very clinical. They start understanding, okay, they may need to now do some sort of treatment. It becomes like a job, another job for a lot of times. And that's what we kept seeing with people, and I saw for many people as I was helping them on their journey.
\n\nIt's really a stark contrast to what, I think, most of us have in our head of, like, when you want to build a family where it should be joyful, and loving, and exciting, and easy. It's not. It's a hard path for people where you have to be resilient. So, I hope that that paints a picture. That's what I feel, and that's what motivates me to keep trying to figure out a better way and why we started Hera.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. The people I've talked to and been around that's kind of the same story. And you're spot on when you say they start questioning themselves. Like, "Is it me? Did I do something wrong?" And it's heartbreaking because you're like, "No, you did nothing wrong." And so, yes, I am so glad that you shared that and that you're doing something about it. So, can you kind of go into what is Hera doing to help the situation?
\n\nTHIV: What we are doing we're a telemedicine-first provider. So, what we do is, one, is that through our app, you're able to access the care you need right away. So, that means if you are being told, "Keep trying," but you want to know if there's something wrong, we have testing there. If you want to know, is there things that I could do or take that will improve my chances? We have our supplements and medications that we can provide to you and deliver to you and have you follow a treatment plan. If there are more things that we need to do, like go to a clinic and get IVF, through our app, you're able to do that. We're able to find you and coordinate all that.
\n\nBut really, we're a companion as you go along in this journey to sift through and provide the solutions that you need. The big thing that we've been really focused on, because we've learned this through our research, and my co-founder ran a fertility clinic for 20 years, is that most people think if you are having trouble, you have to go through something invasive like IVF, or you have to keep trying. But really, what's happening is that only 5% of infertility cases need something like IVF. And what you actually can do is that with a special set of medications taken in a certain way with our plan that spells it out for you, you can be successful. Improve your odds two to three times is what we've been seeing.
\n\nSo, that's really where we're honing in on: Can we improve your chances of getting pregnant? And that has all these different pieces to it. And so, I think that's what our members really like is that, one, they get educated on what's going on and what they can do and pick options. But then they know that if they're with us and they're following our instructions and taking the medications and everything, it will improve their chances. And so, then, hopefully, they can get pregnant.
\n\nWILL: I love that because there's nothing more frustrating than knowing your body and knowing, hey, something's wrong, and someone's telling you, "Oh, just keep trying, like, just keep doing it." So, I love that you're stepping in and educating them because I feel like, especially in our healthcare, a lot of issues that I've seen is because people are not educated on, hey, that's not the right path to be going down, or there's another way to do it, and you just didn't know that. So, I'm glad that you're offering that next step. That sounds amazing.
\n\nTHIV: Thank you. I think you said it the best right there. It's that next step. People want to do something. The most frustrating that we kept seeing and hearing from people is just being told to do the same thing. Isn't that the definition of insanity?
\n\nWILL: Yeah [laughs].
\n\nTHIV: For us, we want to provide something so they could take that's safe, reliable, and has shown effectiveness. And along that, they could talk to someone and make sure and be reassured as they go along in this journey, as they have more and more questions, what else can they do, and just really feel empowered on this infertility journey.
\n\nWILL: That's awesome. So, how long have you been around? How long have you been a company?
\n\nTHIV: We're getting up to two years. Our two-year anniversary is coming up. So, we started in April 2022 really testing out what could be the right solution here. You know, as someone who has done a few startups in my past, the first rule I would say is you never fall in love with the first idea, but you go off and test it, and find out, and interview, and keep iterating. And so, we did that for some time and learned so much. I think I've talked to now thousands of people on their fertility journey.
\n\nAnd, you know, as we were going along, we realized we had something special with this telemedicine-first approach. And so, we launched officially in August, I believe it was 2023, our app with the clinicians and everything after beta testing it for some time. And now, we have a group of patients going through our program in about 12 states, and we are expanding as we go along. We'll hopefully get to the 50 states by the end of the year.
\n\nWILL: Wow. By the end of the year, that's amazing.
\n\nTHIV: Yeah. Because we're getting a lot of people wanting it in all parts of the country, but we wanted to really focus on the areas where you won't have that access. So, to your point earlier, you know, a lot of people we've seen so far were telling us, "Hey, I don't have a fertility doctor near me. It takes me five hours to get to one, let's say. And so, I feel hopeless. I feel like I have to do that, and I shouldn't have to." And so, that's where it's this piece of, like, knowing where you're supposed to be going or getting access and not having these barriers in front of you.
\n\nAnd so, for us, we're really focused on those states where access is a big issue for these services. And so, we're in Texas. We're in Kansas. We're launching in New Mexico now, places like that where you won't see too many fertility clinics in a lot of areas.
\n\nWILL: That's very interesting, and I'm glad you brought it up because I was going to ask you about that because I know you kind of specialize in the telemedicine portion of it. And I'm from Louisiana, so kind of familiar with Texas, and I used to live in Kansas. And so, those places are not the most...there's parts that are rural, but not the most rural parts, so it's interesting that a fertility doctor can be five hours away. That just blows my mind that like, you know, you're not talking about Montana or anything. You're talking about, like, Texas and Kansas that, you know, five hours is a long time. And the amount of times you have to visit the doctor for that, yeah.
\n\nTHIV: For fertility, there's a lot of visits. You're going there pretty often. Especially if you're going to do IVF and having to do multiple rounds of it, you could be going there for months. And so, yeah, there's just...the reason behind this, and this is fascinating to me as well, is there are only, like, about 550 clinics that specialize, like, fertility clinics in the U.S. And most of them are actually concentrated in the metropolitan areas, and I think the stat is, like, 50% of those are in 6 states. So, the remaining states really get a few of them. I think New Mexico has, like, two or three fertility clinics.
\n\nAnd so, these clinics have the specialists, and they do as much as they can. But if you're not nearby one, it's really hard to do that consultation, to learn from them, to find out if there is something wrong. And so, now you still are in this gap of like, is there something wrong with me? Because it could be a simple solution, right? And if you overcome it, you can get pregnant. So, that's where we see–can we be hyper-focused on those areas where someone is maybe two hours or more away from the nearest fertility clinic?
\n\nAnd we really want to focus on that access piece because people should get access to this. So, that's why, with our telehealth solution, we have our own clinicians who will be able to assess. For the testing, we'll send you kits to be done at home, or you can go to a nearby lab, and we'll get the results that way. Give you a set of medications or treatments [inaudible 16:11] we'll actually send it to you.
\n\nWILL: Oh, wow.
\n\nTHIV: That's how we're trying to be much more convenient and accessible because that way, you're doing a lot more at home, and these barriers that are currently in front of you are gone. And people are able to get care.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing.
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\n\nWILL: Let me ask you this because it kind of sounds like the concierge portion of it, which is amazing. How are you able to do that portion of it but do it cheaper than the streamlined way of doing it?
\n\nTHIV: So, I like to look at this in two ways; one is the business, right? How do we make sure the economics make sense? And then the other is how do we make it so that the patient experience and care is optimal and satisfactory, right? Or excellent, I should say. So, the way that we thought about it, and I went around and interviewed and observed so many different care models, like, the ways that these different clinics are working, so be it in a hospital, in a traditional clinic. In the earlier days, I would go and do all of that.
\n\nYou really have to think about is there a better way that we can do it but still have the same success and outcomes? And so, the first thing I noticed is that technology needs to be at the core of all of this. It checks off both of those buckets. The economics and the business will thrive because of that because you can introduce efficiencies, you know, streamline a lot of the operations, do automation. So, that was core to us. So, we were very careful and selected a good vendor to work with on the EMR side and then built on top of that.
\n\nAnd then, from there, technology also helps from the patient side because of all the places, like, I was interviewing, none of the clinics really had, like, an app, or they kind of had something where you would email someone. You would still call, and it was very old school. But what we heard is that patients had so many questions after, before, middle of the night. And so, we were like, how do we make it so that they feel like they can reach out to us, talk to us at any point? And so, that's why we created the app. And you can message us at any point, and then there'll be someone there to help if you need anything or to answer any questions. So, that's on the technology.
\n\nThen staff people wise the thought, and other companies have done this, but concierge care, you know, people have thoughts about it, but what's really good is that it's really about, how do I make sure that the patient is getting the best experience and getting the answers that they need? And really, it's about making sure you have the right team there who's available around the clock to answer those questions who are fully trained.
\n\nSo, we hired a lot of people that had gone and worked in the fertility space. Like, my co-founder knows so much about fertility because she's worked there from the beginning. And so, that's really helpful and is able to answer a lot of these questions that come up immediately. But then we staffed it so they're available around the clock so we can be available for the patient.
\n\nAnd then from there, I think the business model makes sense because we're providing this extra support; patients are willing to pay for it. We've built it so that it's not transactional. And it's more about a long-term engagement so that way people pay us on a membership basis for certain services.
\n\nAnd so, at the end of the day, we've, essentially, and I hope this makes sense, is that we try to not replicate what a typical clinic would do and, which is, like, bill for each service. And we try to think about it: how can we build a long-term relationship with this person who probably will be here for some time and then build pricing and a business model around that? I think that's why it's working. You know what I mean?
\n\nWILL: Mmm-hmm.
\n\nTHIV: And I think that's so important because if we just replicated it, it wouldn't have worked. Things would fall apart. The economics wouldn't make sense.
\n\nAnd then the last thing I'll say is that clinicians-wise, we didn't want to have doctors just there like everyone else thinks, but we actually have nurse practitioners or APPs. And we did this because there was more and more research, and we tested this out for long-term engagement; patients love the nurse practitioners. The doctors are great. They play a role. But I think the quarterback in all of this is that nurse practitioner. So, that's where, I think, I'm super excited. We're hiring a bunch right now. They are really the quarterback.
\n\nAnd we have a good clinical team to make sure everyone feels equipped. And if they have questions, they're able to answer it with docs. But we take cues from these nurse practitioners. So, I think that really helped on the business side and the patient experience side. And that's why we, you know, we have five stars on our satisfaction. People love us. Yeah, it's a long-winded answer to that, but we really thought about how to build this properly.
\n\nWILL: That's perfect because...and I'm thankful that you explained it because what I got from what you said was not only are we able to do it cheaper, but we're able to increase the amount and the quality of care that they're getting. Like, 2:00 in the morning, you have a question; you can get it answered. Like, you can't get that anywhere else. Like, sometimes you have a question, and it may take 12 to 24 hours to even get that answer. So, that's amazing that you're staffed around the clock. So, it sounds like, hey, not only are we going to do it cheaper, but we're going to be better at the quality that we give you. So, that sounds amazing.
\n\nTHIV: Yeah, exactly. And I think that way, what's key here is, currently, in the market for this kind of services, you're paying so much money. A lot of times, insurance doesn't even cover this. So, I've seen people who couldn't get their dream, which, in reality, people's dreams is to have that family, to have that child. And they couldn't do it because of money, you know, maybe it's the Canadian me, but I hate that fact of, like, money stopping you from getting the care you need.
\n\nWILL: Same. I'm with you 100%, yeah.
\n\nTHIV: Right?
\n\nWILL: Yeah.
\n\nTHIV: And so, for us, it's like, if we can make this cheaper, we can make the prices cheaper, too, and people can pay and afford it and get their dream. And so, that's really why we did it this way. It's not so that we make more money. It's so that, you know, we build a sustainable business. But now, patients have an affordable option in front of them.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. Can you, and just ballpark it, like, what is the normal cost usually for this versus what Hera provides it for? Can you explain that?
\n\nTHIV: Normally, people who are going through this would have to spend, ballpark, 15,000 to maybe 25,000. The upper end is, I would say, 50,000, and I'm not including surrogacy in this. But it's a lot of money. People are getting their second mortgage. They're getting, you know, GoFundMes. There's so much that they're doing for this. The worst is when money is blocking you from that dream. So, that amount is typically what we've seen. And that's what my co-founder has told me she would be seeing that from each of her patients and when she was at that clinic. But the way that we've approached it and how much we charge, patients are typically paying us at most around $1,000 to $2,000.
\n\nWILL: Wow.
\n\nTHIV: And so, we're able to effectively do it and at least be an alternative option for them, and that's affordable. And so, I'm always excited when I see patients who come to me, and they're like, "Oh, it was so expensive." or "I thought it was going to be so expensive, and this is so doable for us." That's the difference right there.
\n\nWILL: Wow. That's a huge difference. Wow.
\n\nTHIV: [chuckles] Yeah. And I hope that this changes, like, the conversation. I've seen other markets or in the past where, you know, things were so expensive, and then these new startups were coming in and really making it so that it becomes competitive. And the incumbents have to change their prices, too, and get innovative.
\n\nMy goal is to bring down that, you know, current average cost of 10,000, 20,000 and so that it becomes much more affordable. And so, that could be done by improved technology, more competitors, all those things that we know about. That way, you know, as more and more people are having these issues with infertility...it used to be 1 in 8. Now it's like 1 in 5 or 1 in 6, even. We need more and more of this kind of care so that people can live out their dream, and let's make it affordable so that they can do that.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing. And I really hope you reach that goal because I think especially in healthcare, we need more of that. We need the competitors that are driving the price down instead of driving it up. So, that's amazing that you're creating that.
\n\nTHIV: Thank you. That's why, you know, we have competitors, but I love it because a couple of years ago, there wasn't as many people in this space. And it keeps growing more and more. As more and more people put their attention to this, I think we'll see really good solutions so that people have options. Obviously, I'm biased. I would love for in 5 years or ten years, you know, if someone is having trouble, they're going to think of Hera. And they're going to download our app and talk to someone right away and know what they can do so they can be closer to that dream of theirs.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, definitely. And I'm glad you mentioned the 5 to 10 years. So, I know you mentioned, hopefully, by the end of the year, you're going to be in all 50 states. What's the next step? What's the next goal for Hera?
\n\nTHIV: Yeah, it's a great, great question. I think about it all the time. I think for us, what we wanted to do is really, like, right now, we are early days, and we're learning from every patient we see. What else can we do? How can we help you? Fifty states is one target or milestone. I think there's a lot more we can do on the product side. For instance, we're going to be launching a male infertility program. That's probably the first of its kind out there where we specialize on the men side of things and bring them into the conversation and have them be actively involved. So, that's a big one.
\n\nBut we're going to keep doing more and more of solutions and products, so really strengthen the solution that we have here so that you come to us, and we have everything that you need.
\n\nI would say next after that is really partnering with more and more of the clinics that are already there. And I say this because we're part of the health system. Yeah, business tells us to be competitive, and that makes sense. But you also are taking care of patients, and you need to partner where maybe you don't have the services for, but someone else does, or for continuity of care. And so, you need to be part of the system. And I think that's key for any kind of healthcare company that's starting up. And so, that's, I would say, level two. I like to think of, like, in games, like, the different levels.
\n\nI would say after that, as we grow and become integral to the system and be that solution that people go to when they're in need; we'll evolve to, like, going into the employer and health plan side of things and then be able to say that it's part of your insurance and health plan. And then it's a no-brainer now to sign up with us because someone else is paying for it, which is great.
\n\nSo, that's kind of how we're evolving, but I want to make sure...and I think something that I've heard in your other episodes, but I'm a big believer of talking to the people that are using your solution and learning from them, and identifying where there may be gaps that you can help address. And so, as we evolve, we're going to keep talking to them. I always give out my cell phone number and tell any of our user who wants I'm like, "If there's something we could do better, let me know. Tell me directly." And so, I want to make sure that's clear that we'll see what our users tell us, what we should be focusing on.
\n\nWILL: Wow. I love that. That's amazing. Let me ask you this in kind of closing it out is, like, so that's kind of five years. Do you have anything that you want to promote, like, what you're doing right now?
\n\nTHIV: Yeah. No, I think the big thing is we are constantly working on our product. What I would say is if there is anyone who is either fertility curious, or going through their own journey, or who has gone through this in the past, please reach out to me or, use our solution, talk to our clinician. I think it's so empowering once you meet with our clinician to understand what your options are and what you should do.
\n\nIf you're not in one of our states, then let us know, and we'll put it on the list and bump it up. So yeah, like, please come to our website, check it out, join us, try it out as well. We're all about trying to help people get to that goal of theirs, their dream.
\n\nWILL: I love it. And we'll include it in the show notes, but in case they don't have the show notes in front of them, tell them how to get to your website, how to contact you, how to get the information.
\n\nTHIV: Yeah, for sure. So, you can go on our website. It's herafertility.co. And on there, you can sign up for our services and sign up for our app. But if you have any questions before signing up, you can schedule time to talk to one of our fertility advisors, and then, yeah, you can always reach out to me. I'm on LinkedIn under Thiv. And Twitter I check every so often or X. And you can email me at any point at thiv@herafertility.co.
\n\nWILL: Awesome. Well, it was great chatting with you, and I've learned so much. Keep doing what you're doing. And I hope that you're successful because you're doing some amazing things.
\n\nTHIV: I really appreciate that.
\n\nWILL: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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Host Victoria Guido interviews Dustin Butcher, CEO and Co-Founder of MADE TECH, a company revolutionizing the performance apparel industry through custom and made-to-measure automation technology. Dustin shares his journey from working in the outdoor industry and running a creative agency to founding MADE TECH. The company's mission is to provide performance apparel that perfectly fits the wearer's body, addressing a common issue where standard sizes fail to accommodate individual body shapes and sizes, particularly in sports where fit and movement are crucial.
\n\nDustin discusses the inspiration behind MADE TECH, which stemmed from personal experiences with ill-fitting outdoor apparel during activities like ski touring. He highlights the company's focus on inclusivity, allowing for 100% size inclusivity and addressing the needs of a broad spectrum of body shapes and sizes. This initiative caters to individuals who traditionally struggle to find performance gear that fits and opens the door for brands to offer more inclusive product lines. Dustin's background in the outdoor industry and encounters with the limitations of standard sizing in apparel led to the development of a technology-driven solution that customizes clothing to the individual's measurements, enhancing performance and comfort.
\n\nThe conversation also touches on the industry's broader implications of custom and made-to-measure apparel, including sustainability and waste reduction. Dustin elaborates on MADE TECH's business model, which initially targeted direct-to-consumer sales but has pivoted towards partnering with established brands to offer custom-fit options. This strategic shift aims to leverage brand trust and reach a wider audience, promoting inclusivity and personalization in the performance apparel market.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Dustin Butcher, CEO and Co-Founder of MADE TECH, powering the future of performance apparel with custom and made-to-measure automation. Dustin, thank you for joining me.
\n\nDUSTIN: Oh, thank you so much for having me, and I'm excited to be here.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. Yeah. So, why don't you just introduce yourself a little bit more and tell me about your background?
\n\nDUSTIN: Yeah, of course. So, as you mentioned, I'm one of the co-founders of MADE. We have built technology that enables the automation of custom and made-to-measure performance apparel. So, similar to how you could, like, you know, go online and design a custom suit or something like that and get it made to fit your body, we do that for performance apparel so that the product that really matters if it fits you properly and that sort of thing, and, you know, so that might be outdoor apparel, motocross, yoga. Whatever sport it is that you're into that, you need your apparel to move with you; that's what we fuel. And so, we're working with a bunch of different brands in that space to do that.
\n\nMy background, I came from the outdoor industry; always been in the outdoor industry since I was able to hold a job, originally just at ski resorts and stuff as a lifty and as a waiter, and all those types of classic, you know, teenage jobs. And then I worked in-house at a bunch of outdoor companies, Voilé, a little backcountry ski company here in Salt Lake, and then Black Diamond, and Gregory Packs, and Petzl, and kind of worked around the industry a bit.
\n\nAnd then for the last 12 years, I ran a creative agency, specifically in the outdoor industry, working with a lot of those same brands and other brands in kind of communicating their value to the outdoor customer. And so, and then we kind of rolled into MADE, had this idea, connected with my co-founders, and really built it from there.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love hearing about people building careers in the outdoor industry, something really close to me personally. I also got my first few jobs from rock climbing and having competed as a young adult and then walking up to businesses and saying, "Hey, you have a climbing wall. Like, you should hire me, and I'll run your climbing wall." And they're like, "Okay." [laughs] So, it just, like, brings you so much confidence and such a great community to be a part of.
\n\nAnd so, you're talking about creating clothes that move with you. Can you tell me a time when you were doing something, some kind of performance sport activity, and you were like, "Wow, whatever I'm wearing does not fit me. This is really affecting my performance and my ability to do this sport"?
\n\nDUSTIN: Yeah, I probably have too many of these stories. And what's interesting about that is I'm a pretty traditionally medium guy. I'm 5'11. I'm 170 pounds. Like, I should generally fit into mediums, but I'm just in that weird spot where I always kind of feel like, am I a medium or a large in this? My torso is a bit long. So, my primary sport is ski touring, like, backcountry skiing. That's what I love to do. That's where I spend my time and my focus and a lot of that kind of stuff.
\n\nSo, I've had lots of experiences where I might be climbing up a [inaudible 03:08], and my jacket comes up a bit on my lower back and exposes my lower back, and it's cold. And so, then I got into defaulting where I wear, like, one-piece base layers, so I can never expose my skin directly. But it's like, the ultimate solution really was to have properly fitting stuff.
\n\nThe original concept for MADE came from I was out on a ski tour with some friends, and I was wearing a pair of pants, some soft shell pants that I loved the fit of. But the feature set wasn't there, and they were, like, Alpine climbing pants. They're not even designed for ski touring. They didn't fit over my ski boot. They looked a little bit silly, but I loved the fit, like, in the leg. And they didn't have like, you know, a beacon pocket and those types of things that I would want.
\n\nBut I do have this other pair of ski touring soft shell pants that I wear most of the time that fit terribly but have all the features that I want. And it was like, ah, man, I wish I could, like, determine exactly what I need as a skier and then, you know, would have the confidence that it was going to fit me perfectly, that sort of thing. And that's really where it kind of started. It was a very selfish, like, how can I get the thing that I want?
\n\nYou know, I connected with my co-founders, both of whom came from Arc'teryx to start this with me. And we really got to thinking, and it's like, wow, with this type of system, we can make a really big impact as far as like, we can be 100% size-inclusive. There's not body shapes or sizes we can't meet with this type of system. And so, then it really opened a lot of doors as far as, like, what we can do and how we can connect this. And that's when we all kind of came together on this idea and said, like, "This matters, and we're the ones to build it."
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that you're trying to fit something that works for you, and you realize having that ability could make it inclusive for everyone. And I wonder if you could share more about what you know about sizing in the clothing industry and, how that's developed over time, and how it may be really limiting who has access to the products that you're selling and the activity that those products allow you to do.
\n\nDUSTIN: It might sound like a crappy, little history lesson, but, you know, the further back we go...before the industrial revolution, clothing was made to fit the individual, you know, you'd go to a tailor, and you'd tell them what you need the product to do for you, and they'd measure you and make the product. And then we got into this mass manufactured thing, which is great as far as, like, efficiencies and economies of scale, and all that kind of stuff. And so, we can get stuff cheaper and still, like, high-level product, but we got into this standardized system.
\n\nAnd then companies deal with this challenge of like, okay, what is our small? What is our medium? What is our large? And finding those things and trying to meet the needs of the bell curve but also knowing that for every individual person, they're not meeting that person's fit needs, right? They're trying to fit as many people within the primary sizes as they can, and that's part of the challenge.
\n\nOne of the things that we've run into in performance product, especially, is that, like, there are massive swaths of people that simply cannot get good performance product in their size. 68% of North American women are over a size 14, and it's really hard to find good ski outerwear, as an example, for a plus-size individual like that. And that's not even that plus size. That's an average, like, that's 68%. Like, we're not talking about like, oh, these are the ends of the bell curve. These are people who want to get out and do things, and they've been unable to do it because of clothing.
\n\nWhat a silly reason to not be able to do the sport that you're excited about, or even to go spend time with your friends and family, or whatever it might be, like, your motivation, but, like, what a bummer of a reason to not be able to do it. So, those are the things we're trying to solve through our system is saying, like, "Hey, we can work with these existing brands, and they can now offer stuff that is fully inclusive, meets all of their quality expectations, all of this, and still comes in with a very reasonably priced product."
\n\nYou know, it's not what you think custom would be where it's like, oh, it's going to be five times the cost of the ready-to-wear product. No, we can come in at the same price or very similar with these brands and allow them to make options that meet the needs of all different shapes and sizes.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, I can really relate to that because some of the clothes that I would wear for climbing or even yoga are coming in at a very high price point already. And I recently tried on a set of clothing from a retailer who's normally, like, known for yoga and outdoors equipment. And I was just surprised at how it seemed that they wanted the person who fit these clothes to be very narrow all the way through [laughs]. And I was like, wow, I'm struggling to fit in these clothes.
\n\nAnd, like you said, like, I feel like I'm pretty average, and that was frustrating, and especially, like, getting clothes like that it can really deter people from participating in the sport and participating in outdoor activities altogether. So, I think it's really cool that you are going down that journey.
\n\nLet me ask you, how did you get the original idea for MADE TECH, specifically?
\n\nDUSTIN: So, first, we had to determine, is it possible? Can you make a system that would automate the creation of a custom pattern, all of that kind of stuff in really technical product, right? We know it can be done in suits and jeans and that sort of category that's more of a simple cut-and-sew. Whereas when you get into technical product where you're dealing with waterproof fabrics and seam sealing, you know, in a ski jacket, there's, like, 200 pieces of that product versus two pieces that get, like, pushed together and sewn between, right? Like, it's really, really complicated stuff.
\n\nSo, we started with that kind of hypothesis is, yes, we can figure this out, and we did that under a D2C brand, MADE Outdoor. It's madeoutdoor.com. It's now been live for almost two winters, and we've made a bunch of product and a bunch of people happy. And, you know, we had some really early success with really tall, thin dudes, you know, like, that 6'6, you know, I'm sub 200 pounds or something. I'm really thin. And that person has been kind of forced into wearing a triple XL jacket for so long. So, they're pretty psyched. And so, like, we've had some of those early wins, and that was really kind of like, okay, we tested it. We've proven this system works.
\n\nAnd so, it's really just been in the last six months that we've said, like, okay, now where do we make the biggest impact? How do we make that change in the industry and in these opportunities to participate in these sports? And that's not through our own brand. That is one piece of it. Sure. But the larger opportunity is for us to work with existing brands that have that consumer trust already that, you know, like, "Oh yeah, I've worn this brand for however many years, and I have that trust, and I love the brand. And now I can get something that fits me perfectly."
\n\nOr it's that person that's like, "Oh, I've always worn this brand because it fits me, but I really would love to wear this other brand, but I know it doesn't fit me properly." And so, it opens doors for people to kind of like say like, "Okay, what's the brand? What are the materials? What's the brand ethos that really connects with me? And be able to go there and not have fit be the reason that I can go with one or the other."
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really interesting. So, you started with originally direct-to-consumer custom ski and snowboard wear and, found your initial success, and then identified a pivot point where you could expand and do direct business-to-business and make other brands more inclusive as well.
\n\nDUSTIN: Yeah, that's the big idea, right? And it doesn't need to be my name or our brand name on the thing. Like, what we've built, like, there's just an opportunity for an impact here that's bigger than just us.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And it makes me want to ask you, what other core values drive your everyday decisions as you go about your process here?
\n\nDUSTIN: Yeah, the three kind of pillars we think about anytime we are working on something, and really that kind of drive our whole system at MADE, is inclusivity, sustainability, and personalization. I should come up with a better way to say that, but it's those three, right?
\n\nSo, on the personal side, we want you to have the thing that you need. Your setup for some climbing clothing is going to be different than mine. You're going to want to set things up differently. And maybe you are a boulderer, and I am a big wall climber. Yeah, we have different needs for what we have. And so, we want you to be able to kind of define that rather than just being a designer in some boardroom somewhere. So, that's the personalization side.
\n\nThe second is the sustainability side. 30%, and this sounds outrageous, but 30% of apparel is never sold to an end consumer. And it eventually gets destroyed or sent to the landfill, which obviously has a massive sustainability impact, not only for that product to how do you dispose of that kind of thing, but also just, like, we made it, and it took time, and it took money, and it took human hours and all that kind of stuff.
\n\nSo, that's a huge opportunity for us because everything that is made through the MADE system it already has a home. Like, we never make a thing...if any of our brands are using our system, they only make things that already have a home. So, that's a huge win. We immediately take off that 30% of overproduction, right?
\n\nAnd then the inclusivity stuff we've talked about already, but it's like, we just want people to be able to do the things that makes them happy. And it's a bummer when you can't do those things, whether it's climbing, or yoga, or whatever. Like, you know, there are some big brands that have had a hard time with size inclusivity, which is totally understandable. It's really hard to make product that fits everybody.
\n\nAnd so, you know, we create these standardized systems, and then we knowingly leave people off. But we know that because it's like, well, not that many people in this size have bought from us, and we have to hit our MOQs, and we have to do X and Y and that sort of thing. But with this type of system, they can hit everybody, and they're not taking those, like, big risks as far as like, oh yeah, we have to set place this big order, and then all this product is going to sit in a warehouse for three years before it'll finally sell through.
\n\nVICTORIA: It reminds me of a classic story you hear in software design about how they tried to make the first Air Force pilot chair; I don't know if you've heard this one, where they, like, took all the measurements of all the pilots and then they, like, averaged out all the, like, heights and widths and everything. So, they made this chair that fit no one.
\n\nDUSTIN: Yeah [laughs].
\n\nVICTORIA: Because no one is perfectly average. Like, you know, everyone has variations in their size and their measurements. And so, I think that's really cool. It's interesting. I hadn't thought about the conservation impact or the impact on the environment; it takes just to have to have so much error in your sizing, which is naturally part of what's going to happen when you try to make an average size.
\n\nDUSTIN: I've not been on the product design side of apparel. I don't envy them. Like, their job is hard to find that fit story that, okay, this is what the average consumer looks like. But what does our consumer look like, and then how do we find something that meets them? And what is our medium? And then, do we have to make a different medium for different markets in the world? And there's so much, like, level of detail in there.
\n\nThat's one of the beauties of us working with other brands now is that, like, their level of knowledge in that stuff is huge. And so, pulling from that and being able to say like, "For your product, how should this jacket fit somebody? How do you want it to move?" So, then, when our system pulls in the 3D measurements of that individual, it can say like, "Okay, this jacket needs to sit this far off of the shoulder. It needs to have this much room around the bicep." Like, those types of things are all part of how it works and gives those opportunities for, like, an individualized fit that is determined by how the brand wants it to perform.
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\n\nVICTORIA: How did you go about, like, what was your first step when you said, "Oh, I need a system to do this type of automation and to be able to do this kind of customization"? How did you approach solving that problem?
\n\nDUSTIN: Well, we started to figure it out, and we realized that the system didn't exist [laughs]. So, that's really what it was. It was out of necessity more than anything. So, we wanted to build our custom and made-to-measure brand, and none of the systems existed to do it. So, we got to work on building those systems. You know, that was, over the last year, it's like, okay, we built all these systems. Do we just use them for ourselves, or can we have that bigger impact if we work with other brands?
\n\nVICTORIA: So, did you have the skills to build the technology already in-house, or did you have to develop that within your company?
\n\nDUSTIN: Oh, man. So, my co-founders are amazing. I started this with two co-founders, Cheryl LeBarr and Capri Philip, both came from Arc'teryx to start this with me. Arc'teryx, if people don't know, is one of the big outerwear brands in the outdoor space, a beautiful, beautiful product. They understand fit and, form and function, and they make an amazing product. And I have connections over there, and so I made a few phone calls and really, like, found the right people.
\n\nSo, we got to work on it. None of us are coders. We kind of scrambled through our MVP. We figured out how we could do it with...if you look at our MVP backend, it's messy, like every startup's MVP is. And it's like, okay, this system is connecting to this system over here, and it's talking to this. And it's sending this data from here and that sort of thing. And it's like, but we figured it out, and that was the key.
\n\nYou know, so the automation of this stuff really came from the pattern design side, which was Capri's specialty. And then the automation of the, like, tech pack and all of the factory details that they need to produce the garment came from Cheryl's side, from the product development side. And mine was more on the brand and kind of communication of the value and that sort of thing. We were scrappy. And we figured out how to build something that worked.
\n\nAnd then the next step was to bring on a proper CTO and then really build the, like, scalable system that's like, okay, now it can plug into existing systems. And, oh, you have these expectations of your enterprise-level software. Yes, this is how it works, that sort of thing. So, it's been tiered in that way. And that, honestly, is part of the fun. Like, part of the fun is finding these new problems to solve and then coming up with creative ways to solve them.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really cool. So, you all were able to build your MVP together within your existing co-founding team. I'm curious about, like, what platforms you chose to do that in. Did you pick, like, a programming language or some sort of, like, ClickOps or some kind of, like, other tool that you could use, like low-code tool, to develop it at first?
\n\nDUSTIN: I mean, it's very low code. It's Google Docs, Google Sheets that speak to each other and, like, can share data between them kind of thing within our secret backend, obviously. We have a really great relationship with our measurement partner. We didn't build the measurement technology. That's a whole different business model and that sort of thing. So, we work with this great group called 3DLOOK that does our measurements, and it just uses a customer's phone to take a front and a side photo, and then we get a full 3D model that goes into our thing. It's super cool.
\n\nWe tried to pull some things off the shelf that existed that we could use without having to build it ourselves. With my agency business, like, I have a developer that I work with a lot. And so, like, we called on them to help us build a few pieces, but for the most part, it really was just, like, getting scrappy and creative together. And, like, we built the MADE Outdoor platform on Shopify. It's like all these systems that are just kind of like, yeah, we know how these systems work. Let's use those to start, and then if it works, then we build it into a bigger framework.
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm glad you mentioned that there's take a picture because I was going to say, whenever I even have to do, like, a sizing guide chart on a website to buy clothes and you have to, like, measure your waist, I'm like, I don't want to do that [laughs]. I'm just, like, too lazy. I don't want to check that right now. So, taking a picture would be so much easier.
\n\nDUSTIN: People are so bad at that [laughs]. Like, when we first got started, and we were asking people to send in their measurements, and here's a video on how to do it, even the same person, like, with three different people measuring them, you'd get wildly different information. And so, we definitely knew early on, okay, we need to eliminate the human error aspect and get this as digital as possible. So, that's where we found the right partner. And it really is, it's, like, a two-minute thing.
\n\nYou stand in front of your phone. It takes photos. The photos aren't even saved anywhere, like; they're AI, like, looks at the photos and then gives us the model. We're not sitting on a bunch of pictures of people in their base layers and underwear or anything like that. It's like, all of this is just kind of like, we have your 3D model, and now we can build the product, and we can even do digital test fits on that person, your actual body, before it even gets made, and stuff.
\n\nSo, we have systems for redundancy and everything that we can test everything. And that's just the beauty of, like, the modern technology that exists. Like, we didn't build that either, but we are using the heck out of it to make sure that we can make the best product for people.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really cool. I love that. So, you've maybe answered this question already a little bit, but was there anything else in your product discovery process, and especially as you shifted into marketing directly to businesses, anything that was in your discovery process that surprised you and had you pivot in your strategy?
\n\nDUSTIN: You know, you start with your own experience, right? So, we are sitting in our meetings, and it's like, oh man, here's all the products we want to make. And we're like, we've got this list of 40 things that we want. Oh, I need soft-shell pants. And we started in hard shell for our own brand. So, then it's like, "I live in the Wasatch. I don't wear hard shell, like, while I'm ski touring, at least. Like, I need soft shell." And then it's like, okay, well, let's start working on soft shell stuff.
\n\nThen it's like, okay, we also need mid-layers, and we need base layers. And then we need mountain bike, and we need trail run, and we need climbing, and we need hiking. And it's like, oh man, you know what would be easier? If we just worked with, like, one of the or all of the big brands in this space. And there's some really great examples of, like, smaller companies that have created really compelling systems to work with these brands, like the same group that does the secondary market stuff, so the Worn Wear program for Patagonia and the ReGear thing for Arc'teryx.
\n\nAnd they built that same structure for, like, two dozen different brands. And it's like, man, that is the model for us. That's where we can really connect is they've created so much value in the secondary market, and we've created a bunch of value in this custom and made-to-measure market. That's what we want to do. And we want motocross...like, the MADE brand isn't going to make motocross stuff. The MADE brand isn't going to make fly fishing necessarily. But we want these markets and these people to be able to have that solution. And we also, like, we're early in the space.
\n\nLike, we want them to use us rather than, like, take the time and money and everything to build it themselves. Like, come to us, like, that's our whole idea. We want to have that bigger, larger impact. So, I guess it's us just trying to say like, "What do we want?" And we're users. We know the market. How do we get there the fastest? And how do we have that impact quicker than just necessarily, like, okay, well, in 25 years, we'll have all those products that we want?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, yeah, I could see that, how it went from, well, yeah, I would want this for every product, and then you're like, well, I can't build every product [laughs]. So, I like that pivot in your strategy. And what challenges do you see in being able to make that impact as quickly as you want?
\n\nDUSTIN: One of our biggest challenges right now, I think, is that this is a totally new idea in this space. Nobody's done this in this space. Like, in suiting, custom suits have been a thing for a long time, and it used to just be for rich people. And now because of, like, modern technology and stuff, it's become more approachable. Awesome. That's great. And so, like, in that kind of category, people are more used to the idea of, like, yeah, I place an order, and it takes time, and they make a thing, and then it comes to me.
\n\nWhereas with outdoor apparel and sports apparel and that sort of stuff, you go to your local shop. You try on six different things, and you walk out with the one that meets your needs the best. That's what people are used to. So, it's a little bit of a shift in the thought process. You know, we've had our early adopters, and now we're kind of moving into more people who are like, "Okay, I get it now." And so, we're seeing more of that where it's like, yes, if I give some time, then I really see the value of having something that fits me perfectly.
\n\nAnd in the MADE Outdoor brand, it's not an inexpensive product. We make a really premium hard shell product. Now, it's comparable in price to the other brands that make comparably featured and whatever product, but still, you're spending money, and you want something that's going to last for a while. And so, to have that perfect fit, to have that perfect feature set, to know that when I ski, I totally need a left chest pocket, and I don't need a right chest pocket, whatever it might be, like, your details, that matters, right?
\n\nSo, that's probably our biggest challenge right now. That's not an unsolvable problem. We can manage that. We can get the communication out. And especially as we're onboarding these existing brands, that gives us the opportunity to have a much larger mouthpiece and be able to kind of say like, "Hey, this exists, and you should care." Yes, it's going to be amazing for individuals who have traditionally been off-size. But it's also amazing for you people who think you've always been just, "Yeah, I'm a medium, and everything fits me just fine." You'd be surprised.
\n\nLike, having something that fits you perfectly is a different world, and the ability to then move in that sport and, like, be able to do your thing, it's like, oh yeah, I guess that, like, extra fabric in my shoulders was kind of, like, limiting my movement while ice climbing or, you know, oh yeah, my sleeves were always coming up while I was climbing, or whatever it might be. Like, there's things that I think people will really kind of be psyched about when they start to experience that custom aspect of it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. I can speak to some of that, too, as, like, a climber. And you mentioned it even when you talked earlier about, well, if you're bouldering at the gym, that's a totally different experience than if you're out all day on a multi-pitch, and you're on the wall, and you're, you know, you're vertical for, like, six hours of the day [laughs]. And I think it's really interesting to be able to provide that customization.
\n\nAnd how are you defining success for the company? So, you just made this pivot about six months ago. Did you immediately create some goals that you wanted to achieve in three months, six months, or five years?
\n\nDUSTIN: Yeah, I mean, we have our, like, target, our sales targets and stuff that we are looking at as far as we want these many brands on board this year. And we want to bring on like, you know, as I step back a little bit, as, like, the bigger thoughts behind the company, that's more of, like, where we're trying to target multiple different categories at the same time. So, like, if we can get one big outdoor brand, great, that's what we want to do.
\n\nNow, we want all the outdoor brands. We totally want them all. But if we can just get one, then we're going to have a start of an impact in the outdoor sector. Then we want the motocross brand, and we want to be able to make the impact in that sector. And we want the fly fishing brand, and we want the yoga brand, and we want the traditional, like, team sports brands and those types of things.
\n\nLike, we want to kind of, like, spread and have an impact across categories and as kind of a first attack. And then to really kind of go from there and say like, "Okay, now let's build out, like, oh, fly fishing really is connecting with this, or the yoga community is loving the, like, idea of a really custom fit product." So, like, those types of things are where we can kind of go from there.
\n\nBut as we begin, it's really like, can we make an impact across these different categories? And those are a lot of our goals as we start out. It's like, how can we connect with surf? How can we connect with hike? How can we, you know, like, and it's just looking at each of these little categories because we know there's people being stuck that can't get out in each of those things, and we know we can help. But we're not going to design the product personally. So, how can we make that impact with the right partners?
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that's great. And I'm even thinking about surfing and getting a wetsuit. And there's just so few women wetsuits, period, in the store. And it's very limited in range and can be really challenging. And I took a friend surfing last year and did not enjoy that process. She did not like it [laughter]. She liked the surfing part, but the getting the wetsuit on and trying them on was not great [laughs].
\n\nDUSTIN: I can only imagine, yeah. And there's some really cool, like, in surf, there are some great small brands, like, new brands that are doing custom fit. I don't know their systems. I don't know if it's an automated process or if it's a manual process, but the reality is it's not readily available enough to the general public. And that's where it's like, oh man, our system makes it readily available.
\n\nAnd so, then it's like a simple kind of like, okay, I go online. I fill in this information. I decide, do I want a hood on my wetsuit? Do I not want a hood? Do I want this kind of entry? Do I want...Like, you decide the details that you want, and then the product is made for you. That's the beauty of it, right?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And I'm curious to kind of get back to marketing to existing businesses because you not only have to sell them on this is the art of the possible. Here's, like, what you could do to get the same performance with these custom measurements of your existing high-performing apparel. But you also have to encounter this change management process where they have a way of doing things. You'd be a new product. They'd have to figure out how to change up all their operations. So, I'm curious: what's your strategy for getting involved in that and working through it?
\n\nDUSTIN: Oh man, some of these companies are giant ships with tiny rudders, right? So, to get them to shift any direction or the other is tricky. A lot of our current sales pipeline is more medium-sized brands that have a little bit more of a nimble; yeah, we can jump on this. But one advantage we have is that some of these categories do have some custom programs, like I mentioned, the custom wetsuit stuff, like, that is in the market. So, like, wetsuit companies are aware that this needs to exist. Fly fishing waders: there are some custom fly fishing waders, now, not necessarily made-to-measure, but you don't make them in a 4XL or something. You could order a 4XL from a certain company.
\n\nSo, like, there are systems like that. So, they've actually already kind of figured out the manufacturing side, which is one of the challenges of it that we can help the brands figure out those details because we've done it, and we know how to, like, take advantage of the efficiencies that they have in place with their current supply chain, or they can use our supply chain that we've built out. So, it depends. But that is one of the challenges is to get them to just kind of commit to say like, "Yes, this is worth putting in the time."
\n\nSo, we do have...actually, the secondary market company I mentioned earlier, the way that they do it is it's, like, a separate site. And so, it's not run through their existing site. And so, they get around some of the ways of not necessarily having to be tied directly into a lot of their internal systems, and it's run as, like, a secondary system. Like, there are guitar manufacturers that make custom that they don't even produce them. They basically license out their shapes and stuff to custom builders.
\n\nSo, we're trying to take a lot of the learnings from these other categories that do something kind of similar to what we're doing and learn from them and say like, "Okay, that's one approach we could take, or that's an approach we could take."
\n\nAnd then, really, we're going to the sales conversations with those brands and saying, "What do you need? Because we can be flexible." We're the opposite of the giant ship with a tiny rudder. We're that tiny, little motorboat that can, you know, like, spin circles and stuff. Like, we can do whatever is really needed at this point for these brands to be able to tie into them. So, we are flexible, and we try to learn as much from them as possible to be able to build the right solution.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I think that is the draw of you get your foot in the door with the middle businesses, and you can prove out that it works, and then maybe eventually the bigger brands start to take notice and pick it up as well. But it is going to take time. That's really cool. I think it provides that, you know, for those mid-size businesses, it gives them an advantage that a larger enterprise wouldn't be able to offer.
\n\nDUSTIN: Yeah, no, I think, at first, especially, like, the idea to be kind of first to market-ish with something totally new and exciting and to create that brand value with their customer in a way that they haven't been able to before.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And you mentioned fly fishing a few times, and I feel like it's one of those sports that I've done it when I was, like, really small, like, maybe with my grandfather, like, fishing in the river. And as I get older, I'm like, it does sound nice.
\n\nDUSTIN: Right? [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Like, sitting alone in, like, a beautiful place. Like, maybe you get a fish, maybe you don't. I think I like the idea of it more than the reality of it, but will try it out some...I have enough other sports [inaudible 33:02].
\n\nDUSTIN: I think you'd be psyched if you gave it a shot. Like, fly fishing is something that, like, if you like being outside, it's something else. There's a beauty to it, for sure. And there's a beauty to all of these sports. And, honestly, if people are being active, whatever it is that you're doing, good for you. And that's part of it is, like, we are trying to be as sport agnostic as we can in all of this because, yeah, we don't care if you are a diehard snowmobiler, right? Amazing. Great. Let's get you some product that fits so you can get out and do your diehard thing.
\n\nOr, you know, maybe you're a mountain biker or a road cyclist, or, like, you know, there's so many things that we wear clothing that we hope allows us to perform in that sport, and yet so much of it is holding us back, even maybe to a degree that we don't even know. Professional athletes and stuff, much of their product is made-to-measure. Olympic speed skaters, like, it's not like they had to just choose a medium or a large type of product. Like, it's made to fit their body so that they can perform at their pinnacle level. That's awesome.
\n\nWhere that stops is in the, like, general consumer, and, like, I want to get out and do my sport. It's not about being the best at this thing. It's just about being my best at this thing and having the most fun that I want to have in it. The fit and the details of your product matter just as much as it does for the Olympian as far as I'm concerned.
\n\nVICTORIA: Absolutely. And it reminds me of a story that happened to me. I was climbing in this very popular pant that is known as their climbing pant from this particular brand. And it was maybe the fifth time I'd worn these pants and just ripped the inseam while climbing.
\n\nDUSTIN: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: You know, lucky it wasn't that cold that day or anything, but it's just [inaudible 34:50]
\n\nDUSTIN: Your belayer got a kick out of it, I'm sure.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, there was a layer to this, right? Yeah.
\n\nDUSTIN: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: And I've heard that happens to lots of climbers who wear those same pants. Like, they're known for that because it's really hard to get that measurement right, especially with that kind of material, which was great. It's like this material that was supposed to not rip, right? [laughter] [inaudible 35:09] what is this? Yeah. Maybe I do want to go outside, and I want to go fly fishing, or I want to go skiing or snowboarding, but, oh, they don't even have pants in my size. Like, I'm not even going to try. And that's really demoralizing. So, I think it's great to be working on that problem.
\n\nOh, wonderful. Thank you so much for joining. Is there anything else that you would like to promote today?
\n\nDUSTIN: No, I mean, I think I love having these conversations, and chatting with you has been so great. It's fun to talk about what we're working on and to, you know, get the word out a bit more. There's not really other things to promote other than, like, you know, if you're a smaller or medium-sized or a large apparel brand hearing this, like, please reach out to me. I want to talk to you.
\n\nWe've built a system that really can help both the brand and the customer. It helps the brand with revenue and with margins and reduced waste and all of these things, but it also just helps the customer have a better product and a better experience. And ultimately, that's, in theory, what we are trying to do when we make product. So yeah, that's my focus, and that's what I want to talk to everybody I can about right now.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. Thank you so much for sharing your story and for coming on the show today.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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In this episode of the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido discuss the intricacies of product design with thoughtbot's Senior Designers, Rami Taibah and Ferdia Kenny. They delve into the newly launched Product Design Sprint Kit by thoughtbot, which is designed to streamline and enhance product development.
\n\nFerdia and Rami explain how the kit aims to compress the design process into a focused five-day sprint, allowing teams to move from idea to user-tested prototype efficiently. They discuss the genesis of the kit, its components, and the rationale behind making it openly available.
\n\nTowards the end of the episode, the conversation shifts towards the broader implications of design in product development, the iterative nature of design sprints, and the value of user feedback in guiding product decisions. Rami and Ferdia share real-world examples where product design sprints led to significant pivots or refinements in product strategy, emphasizing the critical role of user testing in uncovering genuine user needs versus presumed functionalities.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm your co-host, Victoria Guido. And with us today are Rami Taibah, Senior Designer at thoughtbot, and Ferdia Kenny, Senior Designer at thoughtbot, here to talk to us about the newly released Product Design Sprint Kit from thoughtbot. Ferdia and Rami, thank you for joining us. Why don't you introduce yourselves a little bit, tell us a little bit about each of your background while we get started?
\n\nFERDIA: I'm Ferdia. I'm a product designer at thoughtbot. I've been with the company for nearly three years now. I'm based in Dublin in Ireland, but I'm from the West Coast of Ireland. Happy to be on the podcast. It's my first time coming on, so that'll be a new experience.
\n\nRAMI: Yeah, so I'm Rami Taibah, and I am also a senior designer at thoughtbot for nearly two years. I'm also from the West Coast, like Ferdia, but I didn't move. I'm still where I'm from [laughs].
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, so just to get us warmed up here, why don't you tell us something interesting going on in your lives outside of work you want to share with the group?
\n\nFERDIA: For me, I'm trying to do a bit of traveling at the moment. So, one of the benefits, obviously, of working with thoughtbot is that we are a fully remote company. As long as we're kind of staying roughly within our time zones, we can kind of travel around a little bit. So, I'm actually in France at the moment and going to Spain in March. So yeah, I'll be working from a couple of different spots, which is really cool and a lot of fun.
\n\nRAMI: Yeah, it's pretty cool. I always see Ferdia, like, having these meetings in, like, these different locations. Just a few months ago, you were in Italy, right?
\n\nFERDIA: Yeah. Yeah [laughs], that's right, yeah.
\n\nRAMI: Yeah. So, for me, well, first of all, I got a new baby, new baby girl, exactly on New Year's Day, so that's interesting, going back home every day and seeing how they evolve very quickly at this age. Another thing is I've been doing a lot of Olympic weightlifting. It's probably one of the consistent things in my life since COVID. I was a CrossFitter. I got out of that, thankfully. But coming back into, like, after quarantine, weightlifting seemed like a good choice because it doesn't have the social aspect of CrossFit, and I can just do it on my own.
\n\nWILL: How is your sleep?
\n\nRAMI: I'm a heavy sleeper, and I feel guilty about it, so no problems here [laughs].
\n\nWILL: Yeah, that was one thing I'm still trying to recover from–sleep. I love my sleep. And so, I know some people can do with little sleep, but I like sleep. And so, I'm just now recovering, and we're almost two years since my baby boy, so [chuckles]...
\n\nRAMI: Yeah, I'm a heavy sleeper. And I tell my wife, like, we have this understanding, like, if you ever need anything from me besides...because she has to be up for, like, breastfeeding, just kick me. I'll wake up. I'll do whatever you need [laughs].
\n\nWILL: That's awesome.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, my understanding is that if you want to get better at any sport, if you get better at deadlifting, that will help you progress in your sport pretty much. That's my [laughs] understanding. I don't know if you all feel that way as well.
\n\nRAMI: Oh, I never heard that. But I do know that these three, like, three or four basic lifts just basically boosts you in everything else, like, deadlifts, back squats. And what was the third one? Bench press, I guess.
\n\nFERDIA: And pull-ups as well, I think, is a compound exercise. I just hate like this. I look for an excuse to skip them, so...[chuckles]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, the four essential exercises, but it doesn't mean that they're fun, right?
\n\nFERDIA: [chuckles]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And then, Will, I heard you were also training for a new activity, the 5k.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I'm going to run a 5k with my best friend. He's coming into town. So, I'm excited about it. I've always tried to do running, but my form was horrible, and I'll get injured, tried to do too much. And I think I finally figured it out, taking it slow, stretching, making sure my form is correct. So, it's been good. I've enjoyed it. And it's interesting looking at what I'm doing now versus when I first started. And I was like, whoa, like, when I first started, I couldn't even run a mile, and I'd be out of breath and dying and just like, ah, and then now it's like, oh, okay, now I'm recovered, and I can walk it off.
\n\nSo, one thing it's taught me is just consistent, being consistent because I feel like with working out and running, you have this, like, two-week period that it's just hard. Everything hurts. Your body is aching. But then after that, your body is like, okay, you're serious. Okay, then, like, I can adjust and do that. And then once you get over that two weeks, it's like, oh, okay, like, still, like, sometimes I still push it and get sore, but for the most part, my body is like, okay, I get it. Let's do this.
\n\nAnd then now, compared to before, now I'm just like, I can't stop because I don't want to go back through that two weeks of pain that I started at, at the very beginning. So, yeah, it's been a very good journey. I don't know how far I'm going to go with it. I don't know if I'm going to go a full marathon or a half marathon. I will increase it and do multiple races, but yeah, I don't know how far I'm going to go with it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, it's interesting. It reminds me how, like, anytime you do something new, you're forming new neural pathways in your brain, then you can get in a routine, and it becomes easier and easier every time you do it. So, I'm going to try to relate this back to our Product Design Sprint Kit. It's like a set of exercises you can learn how to do that might be difficult at first, but then it becomes a part of the way that you work and how you build products, right? So, why don't you tell me a little bit about it? Like, what is it? What is the product design kit that you just came out with?
\n\nFERDIA: The PDS kit or the Product Design Sprint Kit it was something that I'd kind of been playing around with in investment time for a while, and then spoke to Rami about it a couple of months ago, and he got on board. And it really accelerated what we were doing. And it was basically, like, a product design sprint is a known process in design and product design and product development. I think it was started by Google.
\n\nAnd, essentially, the concept is that you can take an idea that you have for something new and, in five days, go from that idea to creating something that can be user tested, and so getting real kind of validated feedback on your idea. Yeah, so try to do it in a compressed timeframe. That's why it's called a sprint. So, you're trying to do it within five days.
\n\nAnd the concept for kind of creating a kit that we could share to people beyond thoughtbot was that we tend to repeat a lot of the same instructions in each sprint, so we're running very similar exercises. The outcomes are slightly different, obviously, depending on the customer, but the exercises themselves are pretty similar. So, the [inaudible 06:42] kind of when we're talking to the customer are often very much the same.
\n\nAnd we just thought that we get a lot of inquiries from start-ups, I think probably maybe even more so in Europe, before they're funded and looking kind of for the first step. Like, what can they do? So, a lot of them, if they're not in a position to, say, pay for some of our design team to come on with them and run a sprint with them, we thought it'd be cool to be able to give them, well, you know, this is something free that you can run yourself with your team and will kind of get you on the ladder. It will hopefully give you something that you can then take to an investor or somebody that could potentially fund a kind of bigger sprint or maybe even an MVP build.
\n\nWILL: Let me ask you this: Why is design so important? So, if I'm a developer, or a CTO, or a CEO of whatever, why should I be an advocate for design?
\n\nRAMI: Well, over here at thoughtbot, we do a lot of iterative design. I think that's a key factor that we should take into consideration. With iterative design, it's the idea of designing something based on a validation or based on a user and doing it quickly and testing it to get feedback from the user or from the market and adjust from there, instead of just designing something in, like, a silo and releasing it after six months and then discovering that you went off course four months ago. And that will cost you a lot of time, a lot of money, a lot of agony, I guess [laughs]. And it just generally will become a very frustrating process.
\n\nI've seen clients before thoughtbot where they come in and they've been working on this thing for six months, and they're just not releasing and pushing the release for month on month just because the CEO does not feel like it's at par with what he's using on, like, everyday apps. And he's, like, looking at, oh, I want to look like Instagram, or feel like Instagram, or feel like whatever they like when, in reality, products don't evolve that way.
\n\nAnd Instagram has already, I don't know, 12 years of development and design behind it. And you can't possibly expect your app that you're launching for your startup to feel the same, look the same, and all that stuff. That's why design is important. So, you just discover early on that you are on the right path and always correcting course with different design techniques, including the PDS.
\n\nFERDIA: What you're talking about there just de-risks a lot of stuff for people when they're trying to create something new. You could have the, you know, a really, really impressive product under the hood that can do a lot of really technical stuff. But if it's very hard to use, or if it's very hard to kind of tap into that magic that you've built on the development side, people just won't use it, and you won't be able to generate the revenue you want. So yeah, the user experience and kind of the design around that is really important to get people actually using your product.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I can relate to what you all have said. I've talked with founders before, who they maybe have a lot of experience in the industry and the problem that they are trying to solve. They think I know what it should look like. I just need developers to build it. But the activities you described about the product design sprint and creating something where you can go out and test that theory, and then incorporate that feedback into your product, and doing it within five days, it seems like a really powerful tool to be able to get you on the right path and avoid hundreds of thousands of dollars of development spend, right?
\n\nFERDIA: Yeah, 100%, yeah. And, like, a typical outcome for a product design sprint will never be a fully polished, like, perfect design. That's just...it's not realistic. But what you will hopefully have by the end of that five days is you will know, okay, these are, like, five or six things that we're doing right, and these are things we should keep going with. And maybe here are three or four things that we thought users would like, or potential customers would like, and we are actually wrong about those. So, we need to change those things and maybe focus on something else.
\n\nSo, as Rami said, design is an iterative process that is like your first iteration. But getting that feedback is so helpful because, as Rami said, if you spend six months developing something and figure out that 4 of the ten things that you built weren't needed or were wrong, or customers just didn't want them, that's a really, really expensive exercise. So, a design sprint, kind of if you're to do them on a continuous basis or every couple of months, can be a really helpful way to check in with users to make sure what you're committing your resources to is actually going to benefit them in the long run.
\n\nRAMI: Yeah. And I would also like to add, like, one of the outputs of a design sprint is a prototype. To me, I'm always like, seeing is believing. It's just better to have a prototype as a communication tool within the team with clients, with customers, with users, instead of having, like, a document or even just wireframes. It just doesn't really deliver what you're trying to do, like a prototype.
\n\nFERDIA: Yeah, 100%, Rami. And, like, on the prototype, like, a good comparison that people, if they're not in product development, might have seen it's like if you're building a house, like yourself, Victoria, a lot of architects will give you two-dimensional plans. And for people that aren't in the building industry, plans can be difficult to read or difficult to visualize what those actually look like.
\n\nBut if you can give someone a 3D representation of the house, you know, they can see, oh yeah, this is what it's going to kind of look like and what it's going to feel like. And the prototype that Rami is talking about gives you exactly that. So, it's not just this is our idea; it's, this is actually what the thing could look like, and what do you think of that? So yeah, it's definitely a valuable output.
\n\nVICTORIA: We're having this debate about whether or not we need a designer for our renovation project. And I'm very much pro [laughs] designer. And maybe that's from my background and being in software development and, like, let's get an expert in here, and they will help us figure it out [laughs], and then we'll make less mistakes and less expensive mistakes going forward. So, I think there's a lot of analogies there.
\n\nSo, this product design sprint is a service that we offer at thoughtbot as well, right? We do workshops and meetings together with the client, and you all have this idea to record the videos and put all the content out there for free. So, I'm curious how that conversation went within management at thoughtbot and how did the idea really get started and get some traction going.
\n\nFERDIA: The benefit of the Product Design Sprint Kit what you get out of it won't replace, say, doing a product design sprint with thoughtbot because you will have expert product designers or developers in the room with you to kind of share their ideas and their experience. So, the output you're going to get from running a sprint with thoughtbot will be more beneficial, definitely.
\n\nBut what we were trying to, I suppose, cater for was people that fall in the gap, that they're not quite ready to bring thoughtbot on board, or they don't have enough funding to bring thoughtbot on board to do a product design sprint, or a longer discovery sprint, or something like that. But we want to be able to give those people in kind of the software community something actionable that they can actually take and use.
\n\nSo, the first three days, I think, of the Product Design Sprint Kit will be really, really valuable to people. It'll really help them identify the problem that they're trying to solve and then to come up with a lot of different solutions and to try to pick one of those. And probably where it's going to be a bit more challenging if you don't have experience in design or in development will be around the prototype, which Rami had spoken about. You can kind of do some offline things, and there are ways to test things without, say, a high-fidelity prototype, but those high-fidelity prototypes, again, are something that could be helpful.
\n\nBut thoughtbot has always had an approach of kind of giving stuff for free to the community, either open source or just letting people, yeah, letting people learn from our resources and from what we know. And so, yeah, this is just a way to, hopefully, cater to people that we currently can't work with for a variety of reasons but that this is something that they could maybe use in the meantime.
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\n\nWILL: So, can you break down...you said it's five days. Can you break down what is walking you through, like, each day? And, like, what experience do I have? Because I know, I've tried to get in Figma sometimes, and it's not easy. It's a pain at times. You're trying to maneuver and stuff like that. So, what do I have to do? Like, do you show me how Figma? Do you give me a template with Figma? Like, how do you help me with those things? And I know Miro and those things. So, like, walk me through each step of the sprint.
\n\nRAMI: Yeah, well, I mean, Figma and Miro are just tools that just became popular, I guess, after COVID. Design sprints used to be physical, in the same room as sprints. You would get the clients or the stakeholders in a room and do all that stuff. But Figma, FigJam, and, you know, kind of...I don't know if this was part of their, like, product thinking, but it kind of allowed doing full-on design sprints in their tools.
\n\nSo, the first step or the first day would be, like, the understanding day where basically we gather information about the product, the users, what's out there, and just come up with a general plan on how to go forward.
\n\nAnd the second day would be divergent where we just look at what's out there and come up with these crazy ideas, kind of, like, a brainstorming thing but in a more inclusive, I guess, way and in a more organized way. So, you don't have people shouting over each other. Like, being anonymous also is important on this day, so nobody really knows what you're doing or saying. It's just ideas to remove bias.
\n\nThen, we'd have a converge day where we take all these ideas and consolidate them, which will be an input into the prototype phase.
\n\nAnd the last day is the test phase. I mean, each of these days you can talk...have a full podcast.
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm curious about when you're testing and when you're, like, I'll say thoughtbot is a global company, right? And so, there's lots of different types of users and groups that you might be wanting to use your app. I'm thinking, you know, sometimes, in particular, some of the applications I've been looking at are targeting people who maybe they don't have an iPhone. They maybe have lower income or less means and access to get products and services. So, how does your design sprint talk to designing for different types of communities?
\n\nFERDIA: I think that's a great question, Victoria. I would say the first thing on it is that we'd often get a lot of people with a startup idea, and they would come in and say, "You know, this app could be used by everybody. So, like, we have kind of no beachhead market or no target market. Like, this would be great for the whole world." That's a very nice thought to have if it is something that could potentially be used by everyone.
\n\nBut we would generally say you should pick a smaller niche to try to establish yourself in first and hit a home run basically with that niche first, and then kind of grow from there. We would normally say to people as, like, again, this is going back to what Rami said about the iterative process. If at the end of the five days, you've picked the wrong beachhead market and it doesn't hit home with them, that's fine. You can just do another sprint next week or next month on a different kind of subsection of the market.
\n\nSo, I think picking a fairly niche sector of the market is a good starting point. You then run your product design sprint with that niche in mind and try to talk to five users from that. And, generally, we say five because, generally, if you have less than or fewer than five people contributing, you probably won't get enough data. You know that you could...if you only test with two people, you probably wouldn't get a thorough enough data set. And then, normally, once you go over five, you kind of start seeing the patterns repeating themselves. You get kind of diminishing returns, I guess, after five.
\n\nSo, that would generally be the approach. Try to identify your beachhead market, the one you want to go into first, and then you will try to talk to five people generally from the founding team's network that match the criteria of that beachhead market. And, in some ways, just the final point, I guess, is the fact that you have to pull them from your network is actually beneficial to kind of make you narrow down and pick a niche market that's accessible to you because you know people in it.
\n\nRAMI: And maybe if you don't know anybody, then maybe you're in the wrong industry.
\n\nFERDIA: Yeah. Great point. Great point because, yeah, it makes it a lot easier. It's nice to have loads of industries that you could go into, but it makes it so much easier if the founding team have contacts in an industry. Yeah, it makes a big difference.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I was going through the different days and kind of what you were talking about. So, like, one day is brainstorming, then converge, and then prototyping, and user testing kind of on that last day. It seems like it's completely laid out. Like, you're giving away all the keys except experience from the actual designer. It seems like it's all laid out. Was that the goal to, like, really have them fully laid out? Hey, you can do this from point A to point B, and this is what it looks like.
\n\nIs that something that you're...because that's what it looks like as my experience with designers and stuff. And if that's the case, what was your reasoning behind that, to give it away? For someone, like you said, like a startup they can do this because you pretty much laid it all out. I'm not a designer, and I don't claim to, but it looks like I can do this from what you laid out.
\n\nRAMI: Well, first of all, like, at thoughtbot, we're really big into open source, and open source is not always just development. It can be these kinds of things, right? It's not a trade secret. It's not something we came up with. We maybe evolved it a little bit from Google, I think it was Google Ventures, but we just evolved it.
\n\nAnd, at the end of the day, it's something that anybody can do. But, actually, taking the output from it is something that we do as thoughtbot. Like, okay, you have a prototype. That's great. You tested it, but okay, now we want to make it happen. If you can make it happen, then great, but the reality is that a lot of people can't, and that's why there are, like, a gazillion agencies out there that do these things.
\n\nSo, the reasoning, I guess, and Ferdia can expand on, is, like, if somebody takes this and comes up with a great prototype and feels confident that they actually want to develop this idea, who else would be better than thoughtbot who actually gave them the keys to everything?
\n\nFERDIA: Yeah, 100%, Rami. Yeah, it's essentially just helping people get on the first rung of the product development ladder with fewer barriers to entry, so you don't have to have a couple of thousand dollars saved up to run a sprint. This kind of gives you a really, really low entry point.
\n\nAnd I guess there's another use case for it where you would often have potentially founders or even companies that want to release a new product or feature. And they might reach out to thoughtbot because they want to develop something, and they're very sure that this is what we want to develop. And, you know, maybe they don't want to engage with a product design sprint or something like that if they think they know their market well enough.
\n\nAnd this could be a handy tool just to say to them, "Okay, if you can go away, take this free resource for a week, run a product design sprint with your team, and come back to us and tell us that nothing has changed, you know that you've correctly identified the right market and that you've validated your theories with them," then we can kind of jump into development from there.
\n\nBut yeah, it can be a good way, I suppose, to show the value of doing a product design sprint. As I said, a lot of people come in, and they have great ideas, and they can be fairly certain that this is going to work. But a product design sprint is really, really valuable to validate those before you dive into building.
\n\nVICTORIA: And can you give us an example from your experience of a client who went through a product design sprint and decided to pivot maybe their main idea and go in a different direction?
\n\nFERDIA: I'm not sure off the top of my head, Victoria, if I can pick one that pivoted in a completely different direction, but definitely, like, some of the clients that we worked with on the Fusion team in thoughtbot ended up changing direction or changing the customer that they were going after. So, some people might have had an idea in their head of who they wanted to tackle and might have had a particular, say, feature prioritized for that person. And through the product design sprint, we were able to validate that, actually, this feature is not that important. This other feature is more important, and it's more important to a different group than kind of what you initially thought. That would happen fairly regularly on a product design sprint.
\n\nLike, I think if you look at the potential outcomes, one being that everything's exactly as you thought it was and you can proceed as planned, or the opposite end of the spectrum where nothing is as you thought it was and, you know, you kind of have to go back to the drawing board, it's very rare that you're on either end of those after a product design sprint. Most of the time, you're somewhere in the middle. You've changed a few things, and you're able to keep a few things, and that's kind of normally where they land. So, I would say nearly every customer that we've done a product design sprint with has changed some things, but never kind of gone back to the drawing board and started from scratch.
\n\nRAMI: It's usually prioritization and just understanding what to do and also, like, get into the details of how to do it. That's where the value comes in. But, like, completely pivoting from a food delivery app to, I don't know, NFTs [laughs] never really happened.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, and it doesn't have to necessarily be a big pivot but looking for, like, a real-world example, like, maybe you're building an e-commerce site for a plant marketplace or something like that.
\n\nRAMI: Yeah. Well, we had a self-help app where they already had the app in the market. It was a progressive web app, and they were really keen on improving this mood tracker feature. But then we did a product design sprint, and they had a bunch of other features, and that exercise kind of reprioritized. And the mood tracker ended up not being released in the first version of the actual mobile app because we were also developing a native app.
\n\nVICTORIA: Gotcha. So, they were pretty convinced that this was an important feature that people wanted to track their mood in their app. And then, when they went through and tested it, users were actually like, "There's this other feature that's more important to me."
\n\nFERDIA: One example of another client that we did, which was a kind of a wellness app, they wanted it to feel like a friend in your pocket. So, they were looking at ways to integrate with WhatsApp that you'd get notifications via WhatsApp. So, they would kind of be, like, friendly messages to people as if it's your friend, you know, texting you to check in. And that was kind of an idea going into it, and users did not like that at all. Like, they really didn't like that.
\n\nSo, we ditched that [inaudible 25:49] completely. But, again, that could have been something that they would have spent a long time developing to try to implement, and then to have users say this would have been a very, very costly waste of time. So, we figured that out in a few days, which was a money saver for the team.
\n\nVICTORIA: And it must be pretty emotional to have that feedback, right? Like, it's better to get it early on so that you don't invest all the money and time into it. But as a founder, I'm sure you're so passionate about your ideas, and you really think you have the answers from your experience, most likely. So, I'm curious if there's any kind of emotional management you do with clients during this product design sprint.
\n\nFERDIA: I think it definitely is. I think people, as I said, often come in with very strong opinions of what they feel will work. And it might even be a product that they specifically want, or they might be one of those potential users. And I actually think, say, engaging an agency like thoughtbot to design something like that, if we felt that they were going down the wrong path, that could be actually quite difficult to do. But because of product design sprints, you are user-testing it. The founders are hearing this feedback from the horse's mouth, so to speak. They're hearing it directly from potential customers. So, it's a lot more black and white.
\n\nNow, sometimes, it might still be a case that a founder then doesn't want to proceed with that idea if it's not kind of going to be the way that they wanted it to be, and that's fair enough as well. But the feedback, as I said, it tends not to be that the idea is completely scrapped. It just means that you move a couple of things around. As Rami said, you deprioritize some things and prioritize other things for the first version, and that tends to be the outcome of it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Are the users always right, or is it sometimes you can have an idea that persist, despite the early feedback from users?
\n\nRAMI: Interesting question. Like, I see the parallels you're doing with the customer is always right, yeah. But the thing is, like, that's just my opinion, I think. We tested with users, and we kind of observe how they react to it and how they use the prototype.
\n\nSo, it's not like an opinion session or, like, a focus group where they're actually giving...a user can say something and do something else or react in a different way. But yeah, it's a fine line, I think. But I would be really surprised if ten users would agree on something and say something, and their behavior also would reflect that, and we won't pick up on.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, I like the distinction you're making between what they say and then what the behavior shows, right?
\n\nFERDIA: I think something important there as well, like you'll often hear it in design communities, is that you should listen to the feedback from customers but maybe not the solutions that they're proposing. Because, at the end of the day, like, thoughtbot have experts in product design and product development, so we want to figure out from the user's perspective what they want to achieve and maybe what their problems are, but not necessarily take into account or just, I suppose, not necessarily just follow exactly what they say the solution should be.
\n\nYou're kind of looking for the problems and the things that they're struggling with. You're trying to pick those up rather than just to do the solution that the customer is telling you. And you'll see that in a lot of startups as well that, you know, it's the famous Henry Ford quote about, you know, "If I'd listened to my customers, I'd have designed a faster horse." Sometimes, you need to listen to the problem, and the problem is getting from A to B faster, and then you come up with a solution for that rather than the solution that's been recommended to you.
\n\nWILL: I want to pivot a little bit and ask you both, why did you get into design?
\n\nFERDIA: I actually did architecture in university, and there were aspects of that I liked. Funnily enough, it's a fairly similar process to designing for software, and then it's an iterative approach. You're given a brief and yet you kind of take a concept forward. But then, when you apply for planning, you have to make changes. And when you kind of put [inaudible 29:41], you make changes. So, you're constantly, I suppose, designing iteratively.
\n\nAnd then I got into startups and was kind of wearing a lot of different hats in that startup sort of world. But the product was the one area that always kind of got me excited. So, you know, if you tried to make a sale with a particular customer and they didn't want to go over something, like, coming home and trying to figure out, okay, how can I fix that problem with the product so that next time when I go to a customer, and they'll say, "Yes"? That was kind of what always gave me the adrenaline.
\n\nSo yeah, comparatively, between architecture and software, the turnaround times in software is so much faster that I think it's more enjoyable than architecture. You kind of can really see progress. Product design sprint in five days. You can kind of take something a long way whereas designing a building is a bit slower, but it's always kind of been some area of interest. Well, what about you, Rami?
\n\nRAMI: Well, I wanted to become a hacker, but I ended up to be a designer [laughs]. No, really, when, like, in middle school, I really wanted to be a hacker and kept looking up what is it. Like, I see it in all these movies really cool, and I wanted to understand, like, how it's done online. And I saw, like, everybody is talking about this weird, little thing called command line. And it turns out, like, all these hacking, quote, unquote, "hacking tutorials" were done on Linux. So, I started looking into Linux and got into Linux.
\n\nFrom there, I started blogging about Linux, and then I just really got into technology. I was in marketing. By then, I was a marketing major. So, that got me into blogging into, like, Linux and open source, which kind of triggered in my head, okay, I need to maybe pivot to a different career path. So, I did a master's degree in information management. Over there, I stumbled into design. The information management school that I was in, like, it was an interdisciplinary school at, like, design, coding, and business all mixed in. So, I stumbled in design there.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's how you all got started. And now you've put this product out there pretty recently. I'm curious if you have thought about how you would measure the success of this effort. So, how do you know that what you put out there in the product designs kit is helping people or achieving the goals that you had originally set out to?
\n\nFERDIA: Initially, Victoria, we obviously like to see the view counts going up on YouTube, and we're always open to feedback. So, like, at the end of each video and in the resources and stuff, we've got contact us kind of links and stuff. So, if people have feedback on how we could make it better or more useful, that would be really, really welcome. So, do feel free to reach out to us.
\n\nAnd kind of the ultimate success metric for us would be to have somebody come to us in future and say, "Oh, we used that Product Design Sprint Kit that you produced before, and we either got funding or, you know, we got so much value out of it that we'd like to do a full product design sprint or an MVP build, or something like that."
\n\nAnd the equivalent that we would kind of have a lot of in thoughtbot would be, say, gems in development where we would get people reaching out and say, "We use that gem all the time. We know about thoughtbot because of that." That kind of is a way to establish trust with potential customers. So, we're hoping that this is somewhat of an equivalent on the design side.
\n\nWILL: Oh, it's been great chatting with both of you about design and what you came up with this. I really like it. I'm going to look more into it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes. Thank you both for joining us. And I had one question. So, the sprint is the short-term. What would be, like, a product design marathon? Like, what's [chuckles] the big picture for people who are building products? Maybe that's a silly question, but...
\n\nRAMI: No, it's not, I mean, but I would guess it's actually building the product and having a successful product in the market and iterate over it for years and years.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. So, it's a one-week sprint, and you could do it over and over again for many years just to fine-tune and really make sure that your product is meeting the needs of the people you were hoping to reach. Wonderful.
\n\nAll right. Well, thank you both so much for joining us.
\n\nWILL: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm.
\n\nIf you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nVICTORIA: And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\nThanks for listening. See you next time.
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Victoria Guido hosts Dr. Ramon Lizardo, CEO of Tele911, to discuss his company's innovative approach to emergency room diversion. Dr. Lizardo shares his journey from being a physician frustrated with the inefficiencies in emergency care to leveraging technology for better healthcare delivery. Tele911 is a service that transforms how emergency responses are handled. Rather than transporting patients to hospitals for non-critical care, Tele911 facilitates on-site treatments through paramedics equipped with iPads, allowing doctors to provide remote consultations, streamlining emergency services, and reducing unnecessary hospital visits and costs.
\n\nDr. Lizardo's motivation for founding Tele911 was driven by personal experiences and the desire to improve emergency healthcare delivery. He recounts the challenges of pioneering in digital health, particularly the initial skepticism from investors and potential users about remote medical services. The COVID-19 pandemic became a turning point, accelerating acceptance and demand for Tele911's services, and Dr. Lizardo discusses the challenges of scaling the service, maintaining data privacy, and the importance of a values-driven approach to business.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Dr. Ramon Lizardo, CEO of Tele911, the leader in emergency room diversion. Dr. Lizardo, thank you for joining me.
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: Hey, Victoria. Good to connect with you once again. How are you?
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm good. It's raining in San Diego, so, unlike the song, it does happen sometimes in Southern California.
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: [laughs] But I love San Diego, by the way. It's one of those places where I feel like you have literally the perfect weather and perfect access to food. I'm a fan of Mexican food. And you can literally get the best Mexican food from, like, all of the trucks in San Diego. I truly believe that.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's true. The only better place to get Mexican food in San Diego is just to go to Mexico. You --
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: There you go [laughter].
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. I actually went to a startup event that was in Tijuana on a Tuesday night and just walked over the border and walked back, and it was great.
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: That is awesome.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs]
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: You know, there's a lot of expats living there now. It's really interesting, in Baja, California.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, there's some back and forth there. And yeah, so just give me a little bit about your background and a little bit more about Tele911.
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: I'm a physician by training, but I've been in tech for about 15 years now. Tele911 is basically the child of a parent that was really frustrated with their specialty. So, I signed up for emergency medicine, and I realized a lot of what was happening was primary care. That led me to pursue a career in consulting. I worked at one of the Big Fours, interned at McKinsey, worked at Deloitte. Then, I started or joined a series of other startups that were very successful.
\n\nAbout three exits in, I said, hey, remember that idea that actually got me out? Being frustrated in ER because a lot of these patients didn't need to go to the hospital but were there. Well, this is how this comes about. Tele911 is basically the product of a lot of frustration, but a lot of innovation. And now we're pretty much reshaping history. In California, Texas, or Florida, when a patient calls 911 now, an ambulance shows up, but instead of being taken to the hospital, they're actually seen at home in something called treatment in place. We're the doctor on the iPad of the paramedic.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, thank you. That's a great interest. So, you had this background in consulting, and you had this experience as a physician, and then you decided to solve this really big problem with the cost around emergency rooms. So, before we dive into more around Tele911 and what you're doing with it, I thought we could warm up a little bit by just telling me, what gets you up in the morning?
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: [laughs] What gets me up in the morning? Well, I'm blessed because I have a two and a six-year-old. So [laughs], the truth is they're the ones that get me up. They usually wake up way before I do. So, if you come to this house about 5:15, 5:30, I feel like everyone's awake, and if you come to this house at 9:00 p.m., we're fast asleep. But what gets me up in the morning is that, above all, I'm a father and a husband.
\n\nI also run the nation's largest ER diversion company, which operates 24/7, and emergencies happen throughout the night. So, depending on what's happening throughout the night, I'm either up at 2:00, 4:00, 6:00 a.m. But what fuels me, though, every day is two things. One is I want to be an excellent husband and father, and I want to be present for everything that I can, especially when I'm home what's happening in my family's life.
\n\nBut two, I'm part of this company that's changing the landscape of healthcare. You know, I've been part of other companies, but this is really one of those legacy events in life where I'm building something that's really changing the way healthcare is being delivered. And I understand that's my personal mission, and that's something that I strive for every day, and because of that, that drive just comes naturally.
\n\nI'm working on something that's way bigger than me, something that my kids are going to be reading about 10, 20, 30, 40 years from now, and probably they're going to say, "Yeah, that was innovative back then [laughs], but now this is how we receive healthcare, which is awesome."
\n\nVICTORIA: That's cool. So, it's like the impact your company's having and the drive to be a part of your family and, of course, your kids waking you up in the morning. And is it all of that, or is it also the chickens? Because I had chickens growing up.
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: And they would always, like, crow, like, really early in the morning.
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: [laughs] Yeah, Victoria, that's awesome. If you come to this house at 5:45, what you're going to see is me in a robe in the middle of a snowstorm, at least for now, going out and changing the water of the chickens. So, one of the things that we've done with our household is made it more of a sustainable household. There's a living thing in every one of these rooms in our house. There's a guava tree growing in our living room, literally, a tree from the tropics growing in Princeton. There are citrus trees growing in our dining rooms. We grow about 30 different types of vegetables and fruits on our property.
\n\nAnd we also have livestock like chickens, which, honestly, I think we've learned that when we see things grow, we're more inclined to try them and taste them. You know, over the weekend, we had our neighbors, and one of the neighbors was like, "You have an actual olive tree from Italy growing in your..." it's about eight feet in our family room...sorry, in the kids' playroom. They were like, "I've never seen that before." I basically told them, "You should come back in a few months and pick some olives."
\n\nWe love this ecosystem that we've built around sustainability, and it basically has brought our family together in order to work on things like trying to figure out how to grow these trees inside our house and outside our house.
\n\nVICTORIA: It must be such a cool experience for your kids to see something grow from a seed into something they can eat and, interact with and enjoy. And to bring it all back, I'm wondering, what was the seed for you to decide to focus on 911 or emergency services and solving that problem that people face? And maybe describe even a little bit of, like, what is the impact of divergent and emergency room services.
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: I feel like every great leader has something personal that's attached to what's fueling them, and, in my case, it's my dad. So, my dad has a heart condition, and, you know, there's been times where they've had to call 911. In the nation right now, 911 is a very antiquated and struggling system. As a matter of fact, ambulances have become very expensive Uber drivers.
\n\nEight out of every ten calls that's medically related to a 911 does not need an ambulance and yet uses one to go to the hospitals. Most people in the U.S. believe that if they call 911 and they get an ambulance, they're going to be expedited at the hospital, which is not true. So, I know, unfortunately, that one day, my dad's going to call 911 because he really needs it, or someone in my family will. And I'm basically building a system that when he calls, he's going to get a faster response. By doing that, by basically doing what we do, we actually take care of the low-level emergency so when the real emergencies come, they actually are able to go through.
\n\nYou know, Tele911 really tackles three things, three major problems in the industry. One is basically the pipes into 911 are overflooded. Sometimes, you're put on hold. Sometimes, you call 911, and they transfer you to another state because they're just so overrun. And basically, now we're creating pipes that actually allow them to take the real emergencies.
\n\nTwo, the health plans. Every health plan in the United States 80% of what they do is actually try to figure out how to keep you out of the hospital. It's called utilization management. And it's just crazy how if you look at these monster health plans, their number one rule is, 'Please don't go to the hospital,' and that's the number one thing people actually do. And, for them, what we're solving is a huge problem because now they're able to take risk and actually control their budgets a lot better and, in effect, give better rates because they know that if they call 911 unnecessarily, they're going to be treated in place.
\n\nBut lastly, it's because the people that are calling 911...medical debts is the number one reason for bankruptcy in the U.S. right now, and these people that are calling 911 they're going bankrupt. If you call 911 in California, in certain counties, the ambulance is $6,000, again, 6,000, even if you use it unnecessarily, let's say for a paper cut. And what I've done is basically created a company that solves for all three: for patients that need the care and basically think 911 is the only resource, for health plans that want to control these costs, but both fall for our lines. I want our lines to be free for the true emergencies.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, it was a personal experience with your father and the need for that. And I can relate to that, as well as having elderly family members who have conditions, who regularly need support. A lot of trouble is even just getting people to the hospital, and they can have services delivered right there in their home.
\n\nAnything in the early discovery phase of trying to solve this problem that caused you to pivot your strategy in your approach?
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: Absolutely. So, Tele911 right now is the product of, you know, an idea that was written on the back of a greasy napkin [laughs] at a Bojangles in South Carolina at a medical conference. But what you see today as the nation's leading ER diversion company and one of the most successful companies in digital healthcare is a product of three failures. We actually tried this multiple times and failed. And it wasn't until COVID happened, and we realized there was an acceleration and an acceptance for video calls, that we noticed that, hey, this is actually a better way, and it can happen now.
\n\nThe irony of this [chuckles] is that we didn't think it was going to work so well. When we went commercial last year, we were like, maybe we could just do 300 calls. And in exchange, we started doing this by the thousands. A few months in, we're in the several thousands, and we're like, oh my God, this is working. And then, by the end of the year, we covered over 5 million lives by geography, and I realized we're on to something. Legislations passed with our name on it. So, you know, this idea that struggled, and we had to restart multiple times, we did not give up. And in exchange, I mean, we're literally making history.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. Yeah, so pre-COVID the idea of having medical services delivered virtually, I wonder what feedback you got from investors or from people interested in the idea at that time.
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: [laughs] No one wanted it [laughs]. No one wanted, you know, you show up to someone's house, and they're like, "Yeah, we're not going to take you to the hospital. We're going to have you see a doctor on the screen." They would be like, "No, I'm going," right? [laughs] Like, "This is not working." Also, even the counties, they were like, "This is too risky. What do you mean the doctor's going to be on the screen?" There wasn't a high level of adoption for something like this, and, you know, it struggled a lot.
\n\nI recall pitching the idea and people coming back to me and saying, "Well, you know, I love this. Tell me when it works. Tell me when you have enough traction." You know, it's funny because those are the same people now that are on our waitlist who now basically really need this, really want this, but we let them know there are 35 million more lives in coverage based on the counties just in our waitlist. It's a testament to just how awesome this product is and how fast it's adopted, but also the true need for something like this as part of the healthcare delivery continuum.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow. Yeah. That's incredible that once you found the right fit, it became acceptable and even necessary to receive care virtually during the pandemic, and it really took off. So, now that you've gotten some initial traction and more than enough, what are your challenges that you see on the horizon?
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: So, a few challenges. Let's talk about how this went from, hey, a good idea to now a standard across different states. So, for example, in certain counties, and, I mean, this happens in every state as well. I'll give you an example of Florida. The hospitals are literally two hours away. Florida is incredibly rural. They either are able to see a doctor through our telemedicine platform, or they have to go on an ambulance for two hours, and that ambulance is away for six hours, like an entire shift.
\n\nSo, one of the things that I've seen is a huge challenge is our product has grown expansively. So, what we do is we're basically building a larger network to be able to deliver for a larger volume. By the way, every time someone presses that button, within 40 seconds, on average, you get an emergency medicine physician that's board-certified in that state. And, I mean, that number used to be 2 minutes, then 1 minute, and now we're at 40 seconds. Eventually, it's going to be 10 seconds.
\n\nI'm pretty sure myself, someone who worked in emergency medicine, can't reach my friend in 10 seconds [chuckles], but this product does, which is what's fascinating about it, that high level of care. But with that same issue, we're now doing this for the tens of thousands. And within the next two years, we're going to be doing this for the hundreds, you know, we're forecasting hundreds of thousands of calls.
\n\nSo, how do we prepare for that? How many emergency medicine physicians are in the U.S.? Can we cover those amount of lives? You know, do we continue to expand across auxiliary like APNs and higher tiers below MDs? So, these are the kind of things that I have to constantly think about. These are the kind of things that the government now reaches out to me to just get some advice on. Everyone's approved this. Now it's more, how do we scale this as we continue to make this the gold standard?
\n\nVICTORIA: The scaling becomes a top priority. And as a CEO who needs to build a management team around yourself, how do you identify where you have needs and where to find the people to perform the task you need to scale?
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: That really does depend on the role. One of the good things...so I used to sit on clinical boards for about 16 health plans, which allows me to have a very expansive network, particularly within healthcare and products. So, I know that the people are out there. The thing is, working at Tele911 is a very different type of environment than most people are used to. Here, we really fall fast collectively, lick our wounds, and redirect together.
\n\nEveryone has access to me. There's no hierarchy. It's more of a matrix environment, at least at this level. And then I tend to hire people at the management level that don't look like people that you would generally hire, and the reason is that there are two factors in order to be successful here at Tele911. You have to have that human component; to me, that's important. A lot of the people here...actually, I was sharing this with someone, but for the majority of my tenure here at Tele911, I was actually the youngest person at the company. I hire people with tenure and wisdom.
\n\nBut a lot of the types of people that I hire here are actually outside of the industry, people who can bring in those thought processes over to Tele911 across repeatability, monetization, and scalability. Some of them are from manufacturing. Some of them...it really does depend. But when I look around the team, and I'm like, wow, you know, we are a team of misfits, but we produce amazing results. I mean, Tele911 in the last year alone, 3x volume and 5x just billing. So, we understand that we are part of something unique, and people just bring their ideas into that and adapt to it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Your approach, it sounds like, to play it back a little bit, is to find people who are smarter than you [laughs] about some things and then, yeah, really reach for wisdom and not fall into the same pattern that other organizations may be advised to follow to build their team because you have that insight into your market and your industry, and you can navigate what you need in order to scale.
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: Yeah. Also, at Tele911, this is innovation. So, there's really nowhere else to look for talent who have done this before. So, we really have to outsource from different industries. You know that adaptability is key, but what I really look for is repeatability. Has this person been ingrained with figuring out the pieces that make it whole and basically integrating them into our process, repeatable, monetizable, and scalable?
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And maybe that answers my next question, but what core values drive your everyday decisions?
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: As I said before, and I think I said it at the beginning of the call, people know me as a father and a husband. That's who I am, and above all, that's my number one job. So, that human component is so critical in order for you to succeed here. Life happens while you're at Tele911. Parents get sick; kids have the flu; like, life happens.
\n\nAnd we have to understand that this is an empathetic environment. Someone in the management team had a baby today, and we were at a debrief meeting. And in the middle of a meeting, someone said, "The baby is here," [laughs] and everyone was rejoicing. If someone externally would have been in that meeting, they're like, "Who's baby, and why are we announcing it in the middle of a management meeting?" But, to us, is we function as a family, which is critical.
\n\nAnother value that we really stress here is integrity. Because we're part of innovation, we have to be very clear about our numbers and very clear about how we're achieving our traction [inaudible 18:24]. I'm not really interested in the goal. I'm more interested in the process, but be very, very clear. You have to be creative. You know, I spent some time studying quantitative methodology over at Harvard, and repeatability is important, but being able to think outside the box because, again, this has never been done before. So, you have to look at this from an angle of, like, the art of the impossible, and then go and try it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right, yeah. And I think it's really interesting, too, like, you know, when you think about making art or innovation, you can sometimes look and see how other people have done it. But then you have to decide what's your path. And, like, how do you solve for this particular problem? And, like, what can you learn from these [inaudible 19:08] this is the way you should or shouldn't do that; practice is really interesting, I think.
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: You know what? And I think that's probably been the most exciting part about this. I've never been in a situation where there was nothing to look back to reference. Like this is the first time in history that this is going, and it's accelerated so fast. We don't have a, hey, this is what good looks like. We basically have us, and we've had to adapt to that.
\n\nAnd along the way, what we've done is we've basically done basic, like, micro-moments of learning, adding on to those and saying, "Okay, this is what good looks like. But then what would great look like?" And I think that that's the example of...remember when I mentioned earlier, you know, it used to be 2 minutes, and 1 minute, you know, then 50 seconds, now 40 seconds. And we're like, "Hey, what if we could do 10 seconds where people press a button and get a board-certified doctor upon a 911 call?" And you're just like, yeah, that sounds impossible, but so did this idea now. So, we know the art of the impossible is just a few stone throws away as we continue to make traction.
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\n\nVICTORIA: You know, there's the impact for the person experiencing an emergency and having it be able to resolve within their home. It also opens up that possibility of remote work for doctors and nurses, which I'm sure you know more than me about the current state of the strain on our medical system and the people who are working in it and how you think about the impact on them as well.
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: Just for context, my wife is a physician. And during COVID, we ended up having two kids, one right before and one during. And because of our–one–our parenting style but also our life choices, what we basically is we took turns at different points in order to stay home with our kids. But one of the things that, you know, have always bugged me is we saw every specialty practice virtually, but emergency medicine had to be practiced in the hospital. And unfortunately, because of that force and that strain in the system, less than 50% of the spots in emergency medicines were filled last year. People don't want to do it.
\n\nSo, what we did is we went out to a lot of these parents and said, "Hey, do you want to join this network where you're able to see patients while you take a nap virtually?" And they're like, "Whoa, let me try that." And, Victoria, within three weeks, dads and moms were showing up in droves with their babies to the interviews, saying, "This is what my life looks like. He takes a nap between 2:00 and 4:00. Can I grab a shift for those 2 hours?"
\n\nAnd along the way, we ended up building the nation's largest virtual emergency medicine practice. Out of that pain point in us and just asking questions, we built this awesome system that now propels people to basically press a button and within 40 seconds, get a doctor. And I think that's the art of the impossible. We actually look at it and say, "Well, we could probably do something better on that."
\n\nBut we've also now reshaped emergency medicine to the point that now we're the ones that are writing the fellowship for virtual emergency medicine. We are now creating the protocols and our data now is in journals as, hey, this is what the specialty should look like, and this is what they're able to do. So, we're equally as excited about that and just on the outcome. And it's just a huge honor.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow, that's incredible that it would go in that direction, and you'd have this opportunity to really reshape an industry and define how even people learn how to perform emergency services and medicine.
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: [laughs] You know what the most amazing thing is? It's actually a lot easier than what other specialties have done because cardiologists have been able to, you know, see patients virtually, but they can't do an EKG. But our team can because the medics are on-site within 8 to 10 minutes of that call, and they're able to do an EKG. They're able to do a pulse ox. They're able to even do an IV drip. So, it's actually a new way to practice emergency medicine, where the medic is your hands, eyes, ears, but the doctor's basically working in conjunction with them, guiding them to best do the assessment.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's, like, such a revolutionary idea, and I think it's so cool. I'm curious: how do you perform user research and design for patients and for emergency responders?
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: [laughs] That's a question that we're actually working through right now. So, emergency responders they actually all have an iPad or a computer on them when they show up at your house. But that looks a lot more like the Nokia phone, the blue phone from back in the day. There's very little interaction on that iPad. And what we've done is we've put an app that's dynamic that allows them to basically best assess the patient, understand their protocol. So, it actually has its enhancer experience.
\n\nAlso, remember, these medics are some of the smartest people on earth. I mean, they see patients more than doctors do. They know where they live. They know what their house looks like, and they've seen them thousands of times. So, what they're really good at is interacting with the iPad in a way that actually shows the surrounding, shows the patient, and shows what's important.
\n\nWhen it comes to our doctors, particularly in emergency medicine, they've been dying to basically practice virtual emergency medicine. So, what we've done is we've basically provided the initial data set of what they need, along with a video. But now we're actually augmenting that with additional data sets that allow them just to have a more comprehensive picture of the patient, including some look back data, what happened before, what should be happening afterwards, integration with their health plan. They actually have more data and a better experience with practicing in their home than if they were at the hospital.
\n\nVICTORIA: I appreciate that viewpoint. And I can understand how interesting it must be to design for those two different user personas. I'm curious; you mentioned data. What's your strategy around data privacy, and protection, and security in your application when you're at the same time trying to be very innovative and move very quickly?
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: Well, you know, I've always believed data is on a need-to-know basis, particularly because we're dealing with PHI. We're dealing with clinical data. I always tell people it's one thing for someone to walk into a hospital and tell you their name, last name, phone numbers. It's a whole other thing for you to go to their home and start gathering information. So, that is basically one of our key standards here.
\n\nWe understand the gravity of the data that we're collecting and how critical it is, not only to health plans, health systems, but, above all, the member and how that privacy should be kept. And it's such a critical component to the company. As we continue to grow and mature, we've added additional layers in order to best protect the company–but above all, best protect the member in situations like this.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, well, I appreciate that viewpoint. And starting, you know, probably your background as a consultant and also working as a doctor, you have a really deep understanding of the type of data you're dealing with and how sensitive it is. So, I appreciate that that's a priority for you within the company. What is the wind in your sails? What keeps you going? What keeps you committed to doing this work?
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: So, at this point, we are reshaping an entire history. We're literally going in the books now. So, now we can't stop this. I remember going through medical school and reading through some books. I was joining part of a community of doctors. Now, I'm rewriting and creating a new version of how this entire industry is being practiced. And understanding the gravity of such a monumental place in society that keeps me going. We can't stop it now. And that, to me, is what's monumental in all of this.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. So, it's that big overall vision of the impact you're making on not just a few people, a few million people, but really the whole industry and for many years to come.
\n\nDR LIZARDO: Exactly. Exactly. So, just so you know, for example, our patients aren't just...we don't just do emergency medicine. Some of our patients have psychiatric needs, and some of our patients have, you know, oncological needs. So, we are actually the largest lead generator of patients into the right system for the United States because we're capturing them at the 911 call. So, there are so many great companies out there, and their number one problem is not how to solve for the things that they build; it's who's going to use it. How do you find more customers to actually use it?
\n\nAnd what a lot of these companies have realized is, hey, we've been trying to find these people for years, and yet they're walking into Tele911's front door. How do we partner up with them, and how do we basically show Tele911 the services that differentiate us in order for them to walk the patients towards us?
\n\nVICTORIA: That's such a cool stat to have that you're really putting people into the right path. And you have these great things that you all have achieved. I wonder, do you write key objectives and results? Because some of those it sounds like, well, I don't know you would ever be able to dream up that result [laughs], right?
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: Yeah. Well, yeah, we do function. We actually have a KPI doc that we use. We all track, and everyone at the company has visibility into them. It's super critical for everyone to be aligned no matter the level for that. I always say KPIs should not be unachievable, but they should be a stretch. Tele911 expects to grow 10x on its second year; very, very, very few companies in the history of digital health have grown 10x. And we are not only with foresight of, like, how we're going to achieve that; we're actually executing on a trajectory for that 10x.
\n\nThat's a dangerous number to say for me as a CEO. And I look at the KPIs, and I'm like, well, we did 5x last year and cut almost a million in operating costs, so we can do 10x this year. Any consultant outside would be like, "Yeah, that's crazy," and then they look at our model, and they're like, "Yeah, these people might be crazy enough to actually do it [laughs]."
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, that's great. I mean, and, I guess, it's, like, all about how do you picture it? Like, are you trying to make a goal that gets everyone excited and gets everyone motivated and dreaming of the art of the possible, or are you just trying to make it so that you can check it off at the end of the year [laughs], right?
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: No. Actually, checking things off is...listen, at the end of the year, we're looking at the following year's list, right? We're not just checking things off. What we're doing is, we understand our mission, and because of our mission, what we're saying is, how aligned with our mission are we? I don't know if that's a circle or a checkpoint, but it's more about alignment for that mission of democratizing access to the best care as fast as possible upon a 911 call.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. That makes a lot of sense to me, just bringing it all back to the mission and the impact and why we're all here in the first place, right?
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: Exactly.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. Wonderful. Do you have any questions for me?
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: No. I mean, it was excellent to, one, just to be able to connect with you, two, to be...actually, as I was talking through these questions with you, you know, I realized how...just for context, my favorite author is Walter Isaacson. If you ever have the chance, please read one of his books. I'm reading Benjamin Franklin, and I read Steve Jobs' book. There's actually a few books. My favorite book in the whole world is Da Vinci by Walter Isaacson.
\n\nAnd, you know, I hope that people listening to this they can do two things. One, they can get to know me just a little bit and the things that we're doing, but two, they can be inspired because I think that's what we really need. There's a lot of people starting companies just because someone's doing something they could do it better. I mean, that's cool and all, but just so you know, most of those things actually fail. There's a reason why 9 out of 10 companies actually fail today. We don't need more copycats. Think of the art of the impossible and create that, and then pursue it as if nothing's holding you back. And if you do so, you just might find yourself with a Tele911 company.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, that gets me fired up. I'm excited. I really love that advice. I appreciate you sharing that with us. Is there anything else that you would like to promote today?
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: Yes. If I could just take a second to share about this, I know that a lot of people who listen to this podcast want to start companies. A lot of people are trying to figure out, how do I get my idea started? But I also realized a lot of these people really haven't written down their ideas. They're basically pursuing things that haven't really been written down.
\n\nAnd one of the things that I shared, if we go back to this podcast, I said, this idea was written on the back of a greasy napkin in South Carolina during a storm at a Bojangles. I literally recall seasoned fries, dipping it in the grease of the chicken, which is terrible for you, by the way, cleaning my hands, and writing on the back: What if people call 911 and this and this and this happened?
\n\nAnd if I could leave you with one thing is, please write your ideas down. Send me photos of your napkins [chuckles], like, share napkins with people on a plane, people on a train, share these ideas, write them down. Because the ideas that write them down basically have an opportunity to go back and reestablish, to modify. But one of the things that I know is these ideas eventually echo in eternity at one place or another. And when I leave, just with an encouragement, please just write your ideas down.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great advice. I really appreciate that. You know, everything in moderation. I'm not going to say fried chicken or fries is bad for you [laughter] because I like it.
\n\nDR. LIZARDO: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: But yeah, no, thank you so much. I loved sharing with that and, hopefully, people will share your ideas.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on X, formerly known as Twitter, @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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Host Victoria Guido sits down with Steven Plappert, CEO of Forecastr, an online software designed to aid founders in financial modeling, which was born to help non-finance savvy founders understand and communicate their company's financial health. Despite the pandemic beginning right after Forecastr's launch in 2020, the company didn't pivot significantly thanks to extensive preparation and customer discovery before the launch.
\n\nSteven delves into the operational and strategic aspects of Forecastr, highlighting the importance of balancing growth with financial sustainability, a consistent theme in their business strategy. Forecastr's significant development was integrating a strong human element into their software service, a move very well-received by their customers. Steven also outlines the company's key objectives, including cultivating a solid culture, achieving profitability, and exploring opportunities for exponential growth.
\n\nAdditionally, Steven discusses the importance of work-life balance, reflecting on his previous startup experience and emphasizing the necessity of balance for longevity and effectiveness in entrepreneurship. Victoria and Steven further explore how companies, including Forecastr and thoughtbot, incorporate these philosophies into their operations and culture.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant R¬obots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Steven Plappert, CEO of Forecastr, an online software that helps founders who hate building financial models in Excel actually understand their numbers, predict runway, and get funded. Steven, thank you for joining us.
\n\nSTEVEN: Hey, yeah, Victoria, thanks for having me. I'm stoked to be here. What's up, guys?
\n\nVICTORIA: Just to get us warmed up here a little bit, can you tell me what's going on in your world?
\n\nSTEVEN: Well, you know, what is going on in my world? I had a great year last year, very healthy. I have a loving fiancé, and I'm getting married this year, which is going to be super fun. And, obviously, running a business, which takes up more than its fair share of my life. But yeah, it's early Jan, so I've been kind of reflecting on my life, and I got a lot to be grateful for, Victoria, I really do.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's wonderful. You know, I used to work with a VP of strategic growth who likened forming partnerships with companies as getting into a marriage and building that relationship and that level of trust and communication that you have, which I think is really interesting.
\n\nSTEVEN: Oh, for sure. Emily always, Emily is my fiancé, she always says that, you know, Forecastr is essentially my mistress, if you will, you know what I mean? Because, like, that's [laughs] where the rest of my time goes, isn't it? Between hanging out with her and working on the company, you know, so...
\n\nVICTORIA: So, how long have you been in a relationship with your business around Forecastr? [laughs]
\n\nSTEVEN: Yeah, right? Yeah [laughs]. Four years with this one. So, you know, we started it actually January 1st of 2020, going into the pandemic, although we didn't know it at the time. And so, we just celebrated our four-year anniversary a few weeks ago.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, that's really exciting. So, I'm curious about when you started Forecastr, what was the essential problem that you were trying to solve that you had identified in the market?
\n\nSTEVEN: I'd say the main problem we were trying to solve is that, like, specifically founders, you know, startup founders, really struggle to get, like, a clear picture of their financial health or, like, just the financial aspect of their business. And then they also struggle to communicate that to investors because most founders aren't finance people. You know, like, most people that start a company they don't do it because they're excellent in even, like, business or finance or anything like that. They usually do it because, like, they've identified some problem; they've lived it; they've breathed it, you know what I mean? They're some kind of subject matter expert. They may be good at sales, or marketing, or product.
\n\nBut a lot of times, finance is, like, a weak part for them, you know, it's not something that they're strong in. And so, they really have a hard time, like, understanding the viability of the business and communicating the financial outcome of the company to investors and stuff like that. And my co-founder Logan and I live that because all we did all day was built financial models in Excel for startup founders working for a CFO shop called Venture First. So, that's what we really saw.
\n\nWe really saw that just, you know, it's really hard for folks to get this clear picture. And we thought a big part of that, at least, was just the fact that, you know, there's no great software for it. It was just like, people are using Excel, which, you know, for people that are great in finance, you know, works but for most people, doesn't. And so, yeah, I think that that's what kind of inspired Logan and I to fly the coop there at Venture First and start a company.
\n\nVICTORIA: No, that's really interesting. So, you found this problem. You knew that this was an issue for founders, and you built this hypothesis and started it. I think you said, like, right before 2020, right before the pandemic. So, were there any decisions you made that once you got more information or once you got started, you decided to pivot? And, like, what were those pivot points for you early on?
\n\nSTEVEN: There wasn't a lot of pivoting early on, I will say. And a part of that is because, like, this isn't my first company. I started a company right out of college back in 2013 called FantasyHub. In that company, we pivoted a lot and, largely because we didn't really put a lot of forethought into that company when we launched it, you know, we didn't do any customer discovery. We just launched the company. And then we skinned our knees a bunch of times [laughs] as we scaled that company up and had to change gears a lot of times.
\n\nIn Forecastr, you know, we had actually been kind of building towards starting the company for 18 months. So, Logan and I actually had the idea originally in middle of 2018. And we decided at that time, look, like, we're not going to go launch this company right away because we got full-time jobs, and we might as well de-risk it. So, we spent about 12 to 18 months just doing a lot of customer discovery, kind of in stealth mode while at Venture First.
\n\nAfter about six months, we brought it up to Venture First and said, "Hey, here's this idea for a company we have. We want to go do it." You know, to Venture First's credit, you know, rather than viewing that territorially and saying, "Hey, you know, there's a great new product line for our company," they really inspired us to go forward with it. They said, "Hey, this is great. We want to support you guys." They put some money in. We did some more discovery. We built a prototype.
\n\nSo, long-winded way of saying that by the time we actually got to the starting line in 2020, you know, we had 18 months' worth of really clear thought put into this thing. And we had been building in this space for years, you know, building financial models and Excel for founders. So, I think we had a great understanding of the customer. We had a great understanding of the market and the needs. We'd done our diligence in terms of distribution and figuring out how we wanted to generate, you know, a good, healthy funnel for the business. And so, it was really just kind of a matter of execution at that point.
\n\nAnd, you know, here we are four years in, and there really hasn't been anything that we've done that's really pivoted the business that much across those four years, except for one moment, which was actually six months ago. So, in July of 2023, we did finally have our first kind of pivot moment where one of the interesting things about Forecastr versus some other solutions in the market is that we're not just a product, just a SaaS platform. There's a real strong human layer to our solution. We've always felt like a SaaS plus human model was the right model for financial modeling for startups because a lot of these startup founders don't have finance expertise on staff or inherently.
\n\nAnd about six months ago, it wasn't as much of a pivot as it was a double down. You know, we really doubled down on that human element, you know, and now that human element isn't just through, like, a white glove onboarding and some email support. But we actually do give our customers an analyst in addition to the software that's with them for the lifetime of their subscription and is with them every step of the way. And so, that's the only time that we really made, like, a significant change into what we were doing. And it was just, I think, off the back of three years of saying, "Hey, like [chuckles], people really love the human element, you know, let's lean into that."
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that you saw that you couldn't solve this problem with just technology and that you planned for and grew the people element as well. And I'm curious: what other decisions did you have to make as you were growing the business, how to scale the tech side or the people side?
\n\nSTEVEN: So many decisions, right? And that's why I tell people all the time, I'm like, you know, I've been a founder for 11 years now. And, in my opinion, by far, the hardest part about being a founder is that all day, every day, you have to make a bunch of decisions. And you hardly ever have enough data to, like, know, you're making the right decision. So, you got to make a bunch of judgment calls, and ultimately, these are judgment calls that could make or break your company. And it's really taxing. It's taxing on the mind. It's stressful, you know. It is not easy. So, you know, I think it's one of the really hard things about being an entrepreneur.
\n\nI would say one of the most consistent decisions that we've had to make at the highest level is decisions around kind of capital preservation, fiscal responsibility, and investing in the growth. So, categorically, it's like, on the one hand, you have a desire to build the company kind of sustainably, to get to profitability, to have a healthy working model, you know, where you have some real staying power, you know. And that line of thinking leads you to, you know, be conscientious about investments that you're making that, you know, increase the burn.
\n\nOn the other hand, you have a desire to grow the company very quickly. You know, you have certain benchmarks you need to meet, you know, in order to be attractive to venture capitalists. And so, you have decisions that you want to make, you know, to invest in that growth. And so, I think that's a very consistent theme that's played out across the four years is Logan and I trying to walk that tightrope between growing 2 to 3X year over year and being really mindful of the company's burn, you know, both for equity preservation and just to build the company in a more sustainable way.
\n\nAnd I think as financial professionals and founders, the finance person in Logan and I a lot of times wants to be more conservative. The founder in Logan and I, a lot of times, wants to be more aggressive. And so, we kind of just, like, let those two forces kind of play themselves out. And I think it creates, like, a nice, healthy tension.
\n\nVICTORIA: That is really interesting, yeah. And sometimes you have to make a guess [chuckles] and go with it and then see the results of what happens. So, you're a financial forecasting company. What kind of, like, key results or objectives are you working towards this year with Forecastr?
\n\nSTEVEN: Yeah, great question. So, we're really mindful of this kind of stuff. I'd say, you know, it's something that we really consider at a deep level is, like, you have to ultimately set objectives, which are very aligning and clarifying, you know, at an executive level, and then those should kind of filter all the way down through the organization.
\n\nBecause so much, I think, of building a company is you have to kind of punch above your weight. You have to grow faster than [chuckles] the resources that you're putting into it might expect or whatever. I mean, you have limited resources, limited time, but you got to go really quickly. I think alignment is a big part of that, and that starts with setting clear objectives.
\n\nSo, we actually have three very clear objectives, really four. The first one is living up to our cultural values. You know, we're a culture-first organization. We believe that, like, culture, you know, kind of eats strategy for breakfast, that age-old kind of cliché, but it's true. It's just like, I think, you know, if you build a really good culture, people are just...they're happier. They're more productive. You get more done. So, that is our number one strategic objective.
\n\nNumber two is to become profitable. Like I mentioned, we want to become profitable. We want to build a sustainable company. So, by setting that objective, it kind of forces us to be conscientious about spend and only invest in areas that we think is, like, a one plus one equals three.
\n\nOur third strategic objective is reach 5 million in annual recurring revenue by the end of the year. We're at 2.4 right now. We want to at least double year over year. That's kind of, like, the minimum threshold to keep playing the venture game.
\n\nAnd then number four is unlock exponential growth opportunities. So, we definitely adopt the philosophy of, like, hey, we've got a model. It's working. We've got 700 customers, you know, we've got two and a half million in annual recurring revenue. So, like, 80% of our focus should be on becoming profitable and hitting $5 million in annual recurring revenue. Like, that's, like, the bread and butter there, just keep doing what's working. But 20% of our attention should be paid to, well, what could we be doing to, like, triple down on that, you know, to really start to create an exponential growth curve?
\n\nAnd, for us, that stuff and, like, kind of the data in investor space, like, there's a lot of interesting things that we could do, of course, as long as it's consensual, anonymized, et cetera, safe and secure, you know, with the kind of data that we have on private companies, you know, anonymously benchmarking companies against their peers, things like that. And I think there's a really big opportunity that we have to serve investors as well, you know, and to create a better investor experience when it comes to financial reporting, also something that we think can unlock exponential growth. So, those are the four objectives that we have going into this year.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, I really appreciate that you had culture at number one, and it reminds me, you know, you said it's old adage, but it's true, and you can verify that in reports like the State of DevOps Report. The number one indicator of a high-security environment is the level of trust and culture that you have within your company, not necessarily the technology or tools that you're using. So, being a financial company, I think you're in a good position [chuckles] to have, like, you know, protect all those assets and protect your data.
\n\nAnd yeah, I'm curious to hear more about what you said about just unlocking, like, exponential growth. It's hard to keep both the let's keep the lights on and keep running with what we have, and make room for these bigger strategic initiatives that are really going to help us grow as a company and be more sustainable over time. So, how do you make room for both of those things in a limited team?
\n\nSTEVEN: Yeah, it's a great question. And it's not easy, I would say. I mean, I think the way we make room for it probably on the frontend is just, like, being intentional about creating that space. I mean, ultimately, putting unlocking exponential growth opportunities on the strategic company roadmap, which is the document that kind of memorializes the four objectives that I just went through, that creates space inherently. It's one of four objectives on the board.
\n\nAnd that's not just, like, a resource that sits, you know, in a folder somewhere. We use the OKR system, you know, which is a system for setting quarterly objectives and things like that. And these strategic objectives they make it on our OKR board, which filters down into our work. So, I think a big piece of creating the space is just as an executive and as a leader, you know, being intentional about [chuckles] putting it on the board and creating that space.
\n\nThe thing that you have to do, though, to be mindful is you have to make sure that you don't get carried away with it. I mean, like you said, at the end of the day, succeeding in a business requires a proper balancing of short-term and long-term priorities. You know, if you're focused too much on the short term, you know, you can kind of hamstring yourself in the long run. Yeah, maybe you build, like, a decent business, but you don't quite, you know, reach your highest potential because you're not investing in some of those things that take a while to develop and come to play in the long run.
\n\nBut if you're too focused on the long run, which is what these exponential opportunities really are, you know, it's very easy to lose your way [laughs] in the short term, and it's very easy to die along the way. You know, I do think of startups as much of a game of survival as anything. I always say survive until you thrive. And so, that's where the 80/20 comes in, you know, where we just kind of say, "Hey, look, like, 80% of our time and energy needs to be devoted to kind of short-term and less risky priorities, such as doubling down on what's already working. 20% of our time, thereabouts, can be devoted to some of these more long-term strategic objectives, like unlocking exponential growth.
\n\nAnd I think it just takes a certain mindfulness and a certain intentionality to, like, every week when you're organizing your calendar, and you're, like, talking with your team and stuff like that, you're just always trying to make sure, hey, am I roughly fitting into that framework, you know? And it doesn't have to be exact. Some weeks, it may be more or less. But I think that's kind of how we approach it, you know, conceptually.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, what a great perspective. I think that I really like hearing those words about, like, balance and, like, being intentional.
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\n\nVICTORIA: You mentioned earlier that you're getting married, so, like, maybe you can talk about how are you intentional with your own time and balancing your personal life and making room for these, you know, big life changes while dealing with also the stress of being in kind of a survivor mode with the company.
\n\nSTEVEN: Like I mentioned, this is my second company, and Emily, bless her heart, my fiancé, she's been with me my entire entrepreneurial career. We started dating the first month that I started my first company, FantasyHub. And in that company, I ran that company for three years. We took it through Techstars down in Austin. It was a consumer gaming company. Interesting company. It ended up being a failure but, like, super interesting and set me on my path. Yeah, I was a complete and total workaholic. I worked around the clock. It was a fantasy sports company, so weekends were our big time, and I worked seven days a week. I worked, like, a lot of 80-hour-plus weeks.
\n\nAnd, you know, looking back on it, it was a lot of fun, but it was also miserable. And I also burned out, you know, about six months before the company failed. And had the company not failed when it did, you know, I don't know what the future would have held for us. I was really out of balance. You know, I had deprioritized physical health. I hadn't worked out in years. I wasn't healthy. I had deprioritized mental health. Emily almost left me as a part of that company because I wasn't giving her any attention.
\n\nAnd so, you know, when that company failed, and I was left with nothing, you know, and I just was kind of, like, sitting there licking my wounds [laughs], you know, in my childhood bedroom at my parents' house, you know, I was like, you know what? Like, I don't know that that was really worth it, and I don't know that that was the right approach. And I kind of vowed...in that moment, I was like, you know, look, I'm a startup founder. I love building these companies, so I'm, like, definitely going to do it again, but I'm not going to give it my entire life.
\n\nLike, regardless of your religious beliefs, like, we at least have one life to live. And in my opinion, there's a lot more to life than [chuckles] just cranking out work and building companies. Like, there's a whole world to explore, you know, and there's lots of things that I'm interested in. So, this time around, I'm very thoughtful about creating that balance in my life.
\n\nI set hard guidelines. There's hard, like, guardrails, I guess I should say, when I start and end work, you know, and I really hold myself accountable to that. Emily holds me accountable to that. And I make sure that, like, I work really hard when I'm at work, but I take the mask off, you know, so to speak, when I'm at home. And I just kind of...I don't deprioritize the rest of my life like I did when I was running FantasyHub. So, I think it's super important.
\n\nI think it's a marathon building companies. I think you got to do that. I think it's what's in the best interest of the company and you as an individual. So, I think it's something I do a lot better this time around. And I think we're all better off for it, not the least of which is, like, one of our six cultural values is live with balance, and that's why.
\n\nYou know, because, like, we adopt the philosophy that you don't have to work yourself to death to build a great company. You can build a great company working a pretty reasonable workload, you know what I mean? It's not easy. It is kind of a pressure cooker trying to get that much done in that little time, but I think we're living proof that it works.
\n\nVICTORIA: And if you don't make time to rest, then your ability to make good decisions and build high-quality products really starts to suffer eventually, like, I think, is what you saw at the end there. So, I really appreciate you sharing that and that personal experience. And I'm glad to see the learning from that, and making sure that's a core part of your company values the next time you start a company makes a lot of sense to me.
\n\nSTEVEN: Yeah, totally, you know, yeah. And I've always remembered, although this might be an extreme and a privileged extreme, but, you know, J.P. Morgan, the person, was famous for saying, "I get more done in 9 months than I get in 12," in relationship to the fact that he would take his family over to Europe for, like, three months of the year and, like, summer in Europe and not work. And so, while that's probably an unrealistic, you know, ideal for a startup founder, there's some truth to it, you know what I mean? Like you said, like, you got to rest.
\n\nAnd, in fact, if you rest more, you know, yeah, you might be working less hours. You'll actually get more done. You're a lot clearer while you're at work. It's a mindset game. It's a headspace game. And the better you can put yourself in that good mindset, that good headspace, the more effective you are. Yeah, there's just a lot of wisdom to that approach.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And, you know, thoughtbot is a global company, so we have employees all over the world. And I think what's interesting about U.S-based companies, I'm interested in how Forecastr might even help you with this, is that when you start a company, you basically form, like, a mini-government for your employees.
\n\nAnd you have input over to how much they paid, how much healthcare they get. You have input over their hours and how much leave and everything. And so, trying to balance all those costs and create a good environment for your employees and make sure they have enough time for rest and for personal care. How does Forecastr kind of help you also imagine all of those costs [laughs] and make sense of what you can offer as a company?
\n\nSTEVEN: I would say the main way that we help folks do that, and we really do play in that space, is just by giving you a clear picture of what the future holds for your company from a financial perspective. I mean, it's one of the things that I think is such a superpower when it comes to financial modeling, you know, it can really help you make better decisions along these lines because, like, what does a financial model do?
\n\nA financial model just simulates your business into the future, specifically anything related to the cash flow of your business, you know, cash in, cash out, revenue expenses, and the like. And so, your people are in there, and what they're paid is in there and, you know, your revenue and your expenses, your cash flow, your runway, all that's in the model.
\n\nOne of the things I feel like we do really help people do is just get a clearer picture of like, hey, what do the next 3, 6, 12, you know, 24 months look like for my company? What is my runway? When am I going to run out of money? What do I need to do about that? Can I afford to give everybody a raise, or can I afford to max out my benefits plan or whatever that is? It's like, you can make those assessments more easily.
\n\nYou know, if you have a financial model that actually makes sense to you that you can look at and say, oh, okay, cool. Yeah, I can offer that, like, Rolls Royce benefits plan and still have 18 months' worth of runway, or maybe I can't [laughs]. And I have to say, "Sorry, guys, you know, like, we're cash-constrained, and this is all we can do for now. But maybe when we raise that next round and when we hit these growth milestones, you know, we can expand that."
\n\nSo yeah, I think it's all, for us, about just, like, helping founders make better decisions, whether they be your decisions around employees and benefits, et cetera, or growth, or fundraising, you know, through the power of, like, financial health and hygiene.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. Thank you. I appreciate you letting me bring it all the way back [laughs]. Yeah, let me see. Let me go through my list of questions and see what else we have here. Do you have any questions for me or thoughtbot?
\n\nSTEVEN: Yeah. I mean, so, like, how do you guys think about this kind of stuff? Like, you know, you said thoughtbot's a global company at this point, but the name would imply, you know, a very thoughtful one. So, I'd be curious in y'alls kind of approach to just, like, culture and balance and some of these things that we're talking about kind of, like, straddling that line, you know, between, like, working really hard, which you have to do to build a great company but, you know, being mindful of everything else that life has to offer.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Well, I think thoughtbot, more than any other company I've ever worked for, really emphasizes the value of just, like, people really want you to have a work-life balance and to be able to take time off. And, you know, I think that for a company that does consulting and we're delivering at a certain quality, that means that we're delivering at the quality where if someone needs to take a week off for a vacation, there's enough documentation; there's enough backup support for that service to not be impacted. So, that gives us confidence to be able to take the time off [chuckles], and it also just ends up being a better product for our clients.
\n\nLike, our team needs to be well-rested. They need to have time to invest in themselves and learning the latest technology, the latest upgrades, contributing to open source, and writing about the problems they're seeing, and contributing back to the community. So, we actually make time every Friday to spend on those types of projects. It's kind of like you were saying before, like, you get as much done in four days as many companies get in five because that time is very highly focused. And then you're getting the benefit of, you know, continually investing in new skills and making sure the people you're working with are at the level that you're paying for [laughs].
\n\nSTEVEN: Yeah, right. No, that's super cool. That's super cool.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, and, actually, so we're all remote. We're a fully remote company, and we do offer some in-person events twice a year, so that's been a lot of fun for me. And also, getting to, like, go to conferences like RubyConf and RailsConf and meeting the community has been fantastic. Yeah, you have a lot of value of self-management. So, you have the ability to really adjust your schedule and communicate and work with what meets your needs. It's been really great.
\n\nSTEVEN: Yeah, I love that, too. And we're also a remote company, and I think getting together in person, like you just talked about it, is so important. We can only afford to do it once a year right now as an earlier-stage company. But as amazing as, you know, Zoom and things like this are, it's like, there's not really a perfect replacement for that in-person experience, you know.
\n\nVICTORIA: I agree, and I also agree that, like, once a year is probably enough [laughter]. That's a great amount of time. Like, it really does help because there are so many ways to build relationships remotely, but sometimes, at least just meeting in person once is enough to be like, oh yeah, like, you build a stronger connection, and I think that's great.
\n\nOkay. Let me see. What other questions do we have? Final question: is there anything else that you would like to promote?
\n\nSTEVEN: I guess it's my job to say we are a really awesome financial modeling platform and team in general. So, if you are a startup founder or you know a startup founder out there that just could use some help with their financial model, you know, it is definitely something that we'd love to do. And we do a ton of education and a ton of help. We've got a ton of resources that are even freely available as well. So, our role in the market is just to get out there and help folks build great financial models, whether that be on Forecastr or otherwise, and that's kind of the approach that we take to it.
\n\nAnd our philosophy is like, if we can get out there and do that, you know, if we can be kind of the go-to resource for folks to build great models regardless, you know, of what that means for them, a rising tide will float all boats, and our boat the most of which, hopefully. So [laughs], if you need a model, I'm your guy.
\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you so much for sharing that. And I have a fun question for you at the end. What is your favorite hike that you've been on in the last three years or ever, however long you want to go back? [laughs]
\n\nSTEVEN: Well, I would say, you know, I did have the great pleasure this year of returning to the Appalachian Trail to hike the Roan Highlands with a friend of mine who was doing a thru-hike. So, a friend of mine did a southbound thru-hike on the A.T. this year, went from Maine to Georgia. Good friend of mine. And I had not been on the Appalachian Trail since I did a thru-hike in 2017. So, I had not returned to the trail or to that whole community. It's just a very special community. It really is a group of, like, really awesome, eclectic people.
\n\nAnd so, yeah, this last year, I got to go down to the Roan Highlands in Tennessee. It's a beautiful, beautiful area of Tennessee and in the Southeast, rolling hills and that kind of thing. And hike, for him, for, like, three or four days and just be a part of his journey. Had a ton of fun, met some awesome people, you know, great nature, and totally destroyed my body because I was not prepared to return to the grueling nature of the Appalachian Trail. So yeah, I'd have to say that one, Victoria. I'd have to say that was my favorite in the last couple of years for sure.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, it's beautiful there. I've hiked certain parts of it. So, I've heard that obviously the Appalachian Trail, which is the eastern side of the United States, was the earlier trail that was developed because of the dislocation of people over time and that they would create the trail by getting to a peak and then looking to another peak and being like, "Okay, that's where I'm going to go." So, when you say it's grueling, I was, like, a lot of up and down hills.
\n\nAnd then what I've heard is that the Pacific Trail on the western part of the United States, they did more of figuring out how to get from place to place with minimizing the elevation change, and so it's a much more, like, sustainable hike. Have you ever heard that?
\n\nSTEVEN: Oh yeah, that is 100% true. In terms of, like, the absolute change in elevation, not, like, the highest elevation and the lowest, just, like, the change up and down, there's twice as much going up and down on the A.T. as there is on the Pacific Crest Trail. And the Pacific Crest Trail is graded for park animals, so it never gets steeper than, like, a 15% grade.
\n\nSo, it's real groovy, you know, on the PCT where you can just get into a groove, and you can just hike and hike and hike and hike for hours, you know, versus the A.T. where you're going straight up, straight down, straight up, straight down, a lot of big movements, very exhausting. I've hiked a good chunk of the PCT and then, obviously, the whole A.T., so I can attest, yes, that is absolutely true.
\n\nVICTORIA: I feel like there's an analogy behind that and what Forecastr does for you. Like, you'll be able [laughs] to, like, smooth out your hills a little bit more [laughs] with your finances, yeah.
\n\nSTEVEN: [laughs] Oh, I love that. Absolutely. Well, and I've honestly, like, I've often likened, you know, building a company and hiking the Appalachian Trail because it is one of those things where one of the most clarifying things about hiking a long trail is you just have this one monster goal that's, you know, that's months and months ahead of you. But you just got to get up every day, and you just got to grind it out. And every day is grindy, and it's hard, you know, but every day you just get one step closer to this goal.
\n\nAnd it's one of the cool things about a trail is that you kind of steep yourself in that one goal, you know, one-track mind. And, you know, like we were saying earlier, there's so much more to life. So, you can't and probably shouldn't do that with your startup. You should continue to invest in other aspects of your life. But maybe while you're within the four walls of your office or when you open up that laptop and get to work on your computer, you know, if you take that kind of similar approach where you got this big goal that's, you know, months or years away but every day you just got to grind it out; you just got to work hard; you got to do what you can to get 1 step closer. And, you know, one day you'll wake up and you'll be like, oh shit, like, I'm [laughs] pretty close, you know what I mean? Yeah, I think there's definitely some similarities to the two experiences.
\n\nVICTORIA: I appreciate that, yeah. And my team is actually it's more like starting up a business within thoughtbot. So, I'm putting together, like, my three-year plan. It's very exciting. And I think, like, those are the types of things you want to have. It's the high-level goal. Where are we going? [chuckles] Are we on our track to get there? But then day to day, it's like, okay, like, let's get these little actions done that we need to do this week [laughs] to build towards that ultimate goal.
\n\nWell, thank you so much for joining us today, Steven. I really enjoyed our conversation. Is there anything final you want to say?
\n\nSTEVEN: I just want to thank you, Victoria. I think it's a wonderful podcast that you guys put on, and I really appreciate the opportunity to be here and to chat with you. You're lovely to talk to. I enjoyed the conversation as well, and I hope everyone out there did, also. So, let's make it a great 2024.
\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you so much. Yeah, this is actually my second podcast recording of the year, so very exciting for me. I appreciate it. Thanks so much for joining again.
\n\nSo, you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on X, formerly known as Twitter, @victori_ousg.
\n\nAnd this podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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Sponsored By:
Hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido are joined by Wes Bos, a full-stack developer, course creator, and podcaster. Wes shares his web development journey, from blogging and creating a successful book on Sublime Text to developing his popular online courses and hosting the Syntax podcast. He talks about the spontaneous start of his teaching career, his approach to creating content that is both approachable and practical, and the importance of making web development accessible to all learners.
\n\nWes discusses the evolution of his career, detailing his experiences in teaching at Ladies Learning Code and HackerYou and how he transitioned into selling online courses. He emphasizes the significance of offering quality content in his free and paid courses, ensuring his teachings are relatable and helpful for real-world applications. Wes also delves into the technical aspects of managing his course platform, discussing the benefits of having complete control over his content and the challenges he faces, such as content theft and logistical issues in distributing his popular sticker packs.
\n\nThe conversation shifts to the role of AI in web development, where Wes highlights its impact on coding efficiency and the need for developers to adapt to AI integration in applications. He advises beginners in web development to be wary of over-relying on AI, emphasizing the importance of understanding the fundamentals of coding. The episode concludes with Wes offering advice for content creators in the tech space, stressing the importance of sharing knowledge and its positive impact on the community. He encourages listeners to stay passionate and continuously learn in the ever-evolving field of web development.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giants Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Wes Bos, a Full-Stack Developer, Coursemaker, and Podcaster. Wes, thank you for joining us.
\n\nWES: Thanks for having me; stoked to be here.
\n\nVICTORIA: Can you tell me, you know, on top of all of these skills that you have, podcasting, you're making courses; you're also doing development full-time; I heard that you've also picked up a new hobby in making stickers and, like, designing merch for aligning with some of your marketing goals.
\n\nWES: Yeah. All right. So, my name is Wes Bos. I'm a full-stack developer from Canada, and I do primarily two things: I make web development training courses, and I have a podcast called Syntax in which we release three episodes a week and talk about everything related to HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Node, just web development and things that surround it.
\n\nWILL: I want to see how you started in those courses. I know a little bit about your story because I remember when I first started in development. I think it's gotten a little better, but I was the only junior at one of the first companies I started at. And I went through a bootcamp and then became a junior. And I was like, how do I develop? Like, how do I get better? And they were like, "Wes Bos, his course.
\n\nWES: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: Go to Wes Bos." [laughs] And so, I did that, and it helped me tremendously. But it's interesting. I just want to see how you started. I know some of your background with ladies who code, and I think HackerYou. So yeah, wherever you want to start, bring us into the beginning of Wes Bos.
\n\nWES: So, I've been a web developer forever, a good chunk of my life. And back in, like, the blogging days, I was doing a lot of posting blog posts and whatnot. And I had a couple of the blog posts do super well. And back in the day, it was like, you get tons of traffic, and you try to, like, seize the moment. Like, oh, there's, like, 50, 000 people on my website right now. Like, how do I, like, take advantage of that?
\n\nSo, what I did was I threw up a quick, little...it was a blog post about Sublime Text, which was the hot, new editor at the time. And I threw up a little thing. I'm like, I'm writing a book about Sublime Text. And I threw up a little sign-up where people could pop their email in and hear a little bit more about it. And I got, like, 2,000 signups for that in a matter of a couple of days. And I thought like, oh, all right, well, now I got to make this thing, you know, like, I just [chuckles] I didn't have any plans to make it.
\n\nI had kind of been going around in my head, but I decided to write the book. And then as part of the book, I gave a bunch of videos, and I realized I liked the video part a lot better. And it makes a lot of sense to show people what you are doing when you're talking about code and code-related things. So, I came out with a bunch of videos for that as well. People loved the videos, and I thought, oh, let's just keep doing this. So, I made a bunch of free courses, a bunch of paid courses.
\n\nAnd kind of at the same time as well, I was teaching at this thing called Ladies Learning Code, which kind of transitioned into a bootcamp that I did the initial content for, which was called HackerYou. And, like, people kept giving me the same feedback into like, I'm not a traditional teacher. I'm just a web developer that has learned on his own and figured things out. And a lot of people said, like, " I really like the way that you explain things. Like, it makes so much sense the way that you explain it."
\n\nAnd I figured out that, at least for some people, they really like the way that I explain something, and I will continue to do that. So, that's pretty much how I got into it. It's just explaining how it works in my head, putting it onto video, and putting it out there for web developers to learn from.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. And that was one of the reasons why I think I was so successful in my career is because there's a...Just learning development is hard; let's be honest. It's just hard. And I would run into people that would honestly just talk over my head, and I was like, I have no idea what you're saying, but okay.
\n\nBut your courses, it was like, oh, okay, I understand that. That makes sense. Like, I can't remember the name of it, but the React beginner course I've been to that one probably three times just because I'm like, it's making sense. And every time, I get more and more and more out of it. So, I can definitely agree that the way you teach your courses it brings it down to earth. Like, I think maybe anybody could pick it up, I would say, because it's like you're talking to them, so yeah.
\n\nWES: It's really important to me that everything is approachable. And I will often explain things, like, I'm the same as you. There's extremely smart people out there, and they'll just talk at you about all of these things. And it's just like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Those words don't make any sense to me.
\n\nAnd it's not that I dumb it down. It's just like, the way that it makes sense in my brain is not the same way that they're talking. So, the way that I explain it is just how it makes sense to me, and people tend to really enjoy that type of thing. And I really hope that I can make a lot of this web development stuff approachable. And sometimes it's not the, like, exact perfect explanation of how something really works, the explanation you need to understand how these pieces fit together and when you would actually use something.
\n\nThat's the other part of a lot of the stuff that I teach as well is that I have this big thing on one of my course websites, which is like, no foo bar baz. Because when you're learning to code, you stumble across all these foo bar baz where people are making functions and passing the values in, and they're called meta-syntactic variables.
\n\nThe whole idea is that because foo bar baz mean nothing, you're able to take it out of context and focus on what is happening, and I'm quite the opposite. Show me a real example of a bunch of dogs, or a sandwich, or a button that you can click on that fetches data. And I always try to make my examples something that is real world enough that you could understand, okay, I see where this might be used rather than something in isolation because I find that myself very frustrating.
\n\nVICTORIA: What's one of your favorite examples or, like, example scenarios that you use when you're designing a code problem to teach people?
\n\nWES: It really comes down to, like, what you're teaching, but the ongoing joke on the podcast that we have is that I always use sandwiches because a sandwich is a great metaphor for a lot of things in life. So, for example, when we talk about streaming versus buffering, and we talk about, like, you're eating the sandwich as it's coming into your house versus you're cutting it into pieces and eating it.
\n\nOr in my upcoming TypeScript course, I have a bunch of examples where there can be multiple types of food, and a sandwich can be one of them, and a pizza can be another one. And that kind of shows how to use generics, right? Like, you might have a database entry that is a food entry, but you want to further that to be a sandwich or a pizza, and not all of them are that simple, right?
\n\nLike, a lot of them are also just related to web development, which is like, here's buttons that you need to click on, and here's data that you need to fetch, and here's a database schema that needs to happen. And if that's the case, I try to, like, make it real world enough where you can say, okay, I understand that this is how it works. Now, how can I apply that to my own idea? Because often, people learning to code have their own ideas. They just want to make something to solve their own problems.
\n\nWILL: How did you learn to code? Because I don't think you did a traditional route. I remember on one of your podcasts, you said your dad was in IT, but I don't think you went to a traditional route. So, how did you learn to code?
\n\nWES: It's a really long story. But the story is that I got into computers at an early age. I got into designing T-shirts and CD art for a lot of, like, hardcore bands in the music scene when I was in high school, and that parlayed into Myspace. Myspace taught me CSS. And then I've always been, like, fairly entrepreneurial, so that I parlayed into running my own business, making websites. And I've just been at it for so long that I've sort of taught myself all the pieces that I need over the years.
\n\nI do have a degree in what's called business technology management, which is, it's a business degree but no coding or things involved. It was more, like, higher level. There was some, like, networking IP addresses, and then there was a lot more, like, business management teams, procurement, SAP, things like that, so none of the web development stuff I have learned comes from that degree. It's all self-taught.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, you found that you had the skill around explaining web development concepts, and then that led to you creating your own business and having your own, like, coursework out there and everything through your podcast. So, maybe you could share a little bit what that journey has been like.
\n\nWES: It's been a very long journey. I'm not sure which part you want to hear about, but I've been selling courses for probably about nine years. And I have sold quite a bit because I also offer about half of them for free. So, I have a bunch of free ones where people take it, and they're like, "Oh, this is amazing. I'm going to take the paid one that he has as well." And I spend a lot of time making sure that the free ones and the paid ones are the same quality. Like, it's not just some crappy 10-minute course that I'm using as a lead magnet to get you in the door. Like, they're actually pretty good.
\n\nSo, it's been really fun. Like, I've built a whole course platform that sells all of my courses, and you can view them and stream them, and there's invoicing and checkouts built into it. So, like now, if somebody wants to get into selling courses, there's lots of options out there where you can sign up for some SaaS and upload your course, and you're up and running. But at the time when I had done it, there was nothing like that out there, so I had to build my own whole course platform. And I've really enjoyed working on that over the years and upgrading it, and changing it, and rewriting, and adding features to it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that's really interesting. I like that you kept the quality the same on the free and the paid versions. That's a really interesting, I think, like, a reflection of your own values. And then, I'm curious: now that there are other hosting options out there, is there anything that would make you decide to switch to one of those platforms? Because it also sounds like you're getting a lot of enjoyment about managing the one you have yourself, and there might be some other benefits to that.
\n\nWES: Yeah, probably not. First, because they take a cut, and a lot of these course platforms are not there to promote your business. They're there to promote their own business. And it's the same thing with YouTube. When your YouTube video ends, what does YouTube recommend? They usually recommend what you think you're going to watch, which is sometimes somebody else's video, right? And not having full control over how the courses are sold and consumed, to me, can be a little bit frustrating because you can't do different ideas that you have.
\n\nSo, like, one of the ideas I had early on is I was getting lots of email from people in different countries, you know, in Argentina, and in Brazil, and in India. And they say, "Hey, like, I would love to take your course, but the cost of the course is a day, a week's wages, and that's way too expensive for me." So, I implemented this thing called parity purchasing power. I didn't come up with the economic concept of it, but I was the first person to offer different prices based on the country that the user was coming from. And, A, that's a cool thing to do for people, and B, it helps sales tremendously.
\n\nAnd if I was using some course platform, some of the course platforms now have that in place; it's table stakes, right? But at the time, I don't think I would have done as well if I hadn't coded that in myself. So, having full control over absolutely everything is really important to me. And also, like, nobody wants a teacher who doesn't actually build stuff, you know? No one wants to learn from the guy who just, like, skimmed the docs and came up with a crappy, little example. Like, you want to learn from people who are daily writing code and building real-world applications that, like, I have to support my family on this application, you know, it's pretty important, and it's pretty real world.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, and just following you, I think...and I don't know if you would describe yourself like that, but I think you're, like, a tinkerer. Like, you just...some of the ideas you have is just like, let me just try it out and see if it works. And so, that's amazing that you're able to do that. Where does that side come from? Was it from your dad being in IT, or where did that come from?
\n\nWES: Probably. Apart from growing up and seeing my dad just fix stuff and do stuff, but I'm just a constantly curious and hungry guy. And I absolutely love dipping into different tech and not even just tech but, like, I built this whole recording studio that's soundproofed. I built the whole thing myself just because I love to learn new things and to dive deep and learn how everything works.
\n\nAnd I think a lot of developers very easily burn out. And I always like to say, like, my competitive advantage is not burning out. So, I'm very cognizant of that might happen at some point. And part of the cure for me is I need to be excited about this type of stuff, and I need to be using it. And being able to build new things, and dip into tech, and learn constantly is what keeps me excited and motivated about web development.
\n\nWILL: Wow. So, you say you built your office. So, you built the entire, like, from concrete up?
\n\nWES: Not concrete up. So, this was like a...I'm in a basement right now, and I put up some walls. And I talked to a bunch of sound engineers about soundproofing. So, the whole ceiling is not mechanically fastened to the actual ceiling. It's like kind of, like, a floating ceiling, which is pretty cool. And then there's soundproofing material in the walls and outside the walls, and special drywall, and all kinds of interesting stuff to make it sound as good as possible and be as quiet as possible in here because I have three kids.
\n\nWILL: [laughs] I totally understand the three kids...
\n\nWES: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: And the noise that that brings. So, that's amazing. And I think you bring up something that we don't talk about enough in development is that mental health side. Like, just trying to figure out, what do you like to do outside of your computer, away from your computer? So, that's neat that you're working on that, and that that's probably why you haven't burnt out compared to other people. But yeah, kudos to you. That's yeah, that's pretty interesting that you have hobbies outside of that.
\n\nWES: Yeah, I find that pretty important to sort of keep that balance. Otherwise, if you're doing it day in, day out, especially if you're working on the same thing...like, another benefit I have is I'm always dipping into new stuff, and that keeps it really interesting. But there's plenty of other creators out there that go too hard, and they go 24/7 on it, and then you don't hear from them for six months. And it's because they got burnt out on it, which is very scary to me that that might happen to me at some point. So, I try...I don't know if I've got it figured out, but I try to combat that as much as possible.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm wondering how you balance just that need to create content because it seems to me that web development is constantly changing, right? And so, content that you created a year ago, maybe you got to go back and update everything. So, how do you manage that and keep your content fresh with all the ongoing changes in web development?
\n\nWES: Yeah, unfortunately, sometimes it means you just have to deprecate content, or you say, "Hey, this is not the content you should be taking right now," because some of the courses take four or five months to record, and after a year or two, they can be out of date. So, I'll mark them as deprecated if they need to be.
\n\nBut I'm just kind of always working on something new, both with my courses as well as, like, the podcast. We always just have...that's the kind of the benefit of the job as well is that, like, yeah, it changes all the time, but there's always new stuff to talk about. As somebody who makes a living explaining how new things work, it's kind of nice.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. You got a good pipeline of content to talk about [laughs] and to update for, so that's great.
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\n\nVICTORIA: You know, you're creating this content for web developers, and you have this kind of global audience now. What's on the horizon for you? What are you planning for in the next couple of months or in the next five years?
\n\nWES: Yeah, next couple of months, I have a TypeScript course I've been working on for over a year now. I've been sort of cranking on it, and that will be out. And then we have a podcast that we are going to be launching a video version of pretty soon, which I'm pretty excited about. We've been kind of going pretty hard. We just hired a producer. We've been going pretty hard on, like, the social clips type of thing. So, that's coming down the pipeline as well.
\n\nAnd five years, I have no idea. I think I always say, like, a five-year plan is a five-year guess. You know, like, you can plan ahead for six months, a year, and have some good goals. But in web development, like, a year ago, AI, maybe a year, like, 13 months ago, the AI stuff was nothing but a murmur, right? And now, the AI stuff is a good chunk of what I talk about and what I teach. So, you just kind of got to react to it; otherwise, if you have a five-year plan, then you're not going to be able to catch these new things that pop up.
\n\nWILL: How do you pick? Because I know you said you have a TypeScript course coming out. How do you pick new topics to talk about? Because there are so many. There's testing you can talk about. There's React Native. There are so many areas you can go to. How do you pick and choose that?
\n\nWES: It's actually pretty easy because it's what I'm excited about and what I want to tell people and teach people, like, what they should be learning. So, like, every single one of my courses is tech that I myself am using and that I want to help teach other people, so it's pretty straightforward.
\n\nIt's not like I have some sort of, like, stats of, like, what is the most popular framework out there, and, like, obviously, that does play into it like a Next.js course. I've used Next.js in a couple of my courses. I'll probably do another Next.js course. But that's both because I enjoy it and because it's stable enough and popular enough that people would want to buy it. I'm not going to be creating a Java course or a Rust course or something like that because I know that's popular right now, and it would probably sell well. It's just not something I know enough about, or I'm excited about.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, and I'm curious to go back to your comment about AI and just ask you, how are you talking about it in your courses? What are, like, the things you think it's really important for developers to know right now about AI and web development?
\n\nWES: There's kind of, like, two parts to it. First, there's the part of, like, using AI to help you code. So, there's all these, like, coding assistants that get in your editor, and you can send them your code, and it can help you decipher it, and it can scaffold out code. Those things are really, really good.
\n\nAnd I know a lot of developers are hesitant about it because, like, "Who knows what kind of code it's generating? And you still have to be able to understand it. And I prefer to write it by hand." And that's a valid opinion, but, like, I don't think that that's going forward. And I think that this AI stuff is making us so much more efficient in writing code that if you're not picking it up, I think that you might be at a little bit of a disadvantage there. So, there's that [SP] hunk.
\n\nAnd then there's also the, like, we're going to have to start implementing this stuff into the apps that we build, and whether it's just pinging in an AI service and getting data back or creating a bunch of embeddings so you can have related, like, for a blog post or for a podcast, we want related podcasts. Or if you want to use AI to, like...group tagging on a blog is a really annoying thing. Nobody uses tags well enough. But, like, what if the tags could just be automatically generated based on the words in the post or the words that we speak on the podcast?
\n\nSo, there's just, like, so many, like, new features that will make it better. Your product is going to be better for your end user. And even starting now and, like, when those features are not enabled, like, it's not, like, necessarily an AI feature, but it's like, wow, I wish this had better grouping of podcasts, or I wish that you had better tagging, or that your search is not very good because it's just a text match whereas there's a lot more depth that could be added with AI. So, integrating AI into our websites and our applications that we're building is going to become just another skill that you, as a web developer, have.
\n\nVICTORIA: No, I think that's a really interesting take on it. And I'm curious if you've also seen AI used to even, like, suggest better standards for code or certain design patterns and, like, tools that help you, like what you said, kind of get better at coding faster.
\n\nWES: That's the thing people are talking about. Like, if you're learning to code, should you use these types of things? Because, like, you can just hit Tab a couple of times, and it might look good. And it certainly can bite you. Especially if you need to be able to go back and edit that code to fix it, you need to understand how it works, so there's that part of it. But, man, does it make you faster for doing a lot of common things that you will be doing over again. It just really helps you out, so I'm a big fan of it. I have lots of complaints about it as well, but I think it's here to stay.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs] Yeah, it's here to stay. And I've talked to founders who are really excited about it, and maybe they weren't, you know, they don't have years and years of React development experience, but they know the functions that their app needs to do. And they're able to use coding prompts and tools to kind of create at least a minimal product of what they want to build, so it's really exciting.
\n\nWILL: I totally agree with AI because I use some, especially with the coding, and it makes it so much faster, but I do think you still have to know what you're doing. Because I think you posted on it, like, in one of the coding helpers that I use in VS Code, it still doesn't know how to close out the end of the line. You have these extra backticks or whatever. And it is like, so, as a new developer, you still have to understand your code, or that's going to drive you crazy every time that you use it [chuckles].
\n\nWES: Yeah, that's extremely frustrating, the backticks. I've had an issue open on GitHub Copilot for about a year now. They've said they fixed it, and a couple of little situations, it's been fixed. But I would love to, like, talk to somebody about, like, the actual issue because if you give the broken code back to the AI and say, "Fix it," it fixes it. So [laughs], it knows what's wrong. I just, I don't know. Yeah, you still have to know these things.
\n\nWILL: You taught at Ladies Learning Code and then HackerYou. Did that help you overcome the imposter syndrome of teaching? I don't know if you knew how big your courses were going to become. But what did the imposter syndrome look like for you during that time, or did you even have it?
\n\nWES: To a certain point, yeah. I think everybody has imposter syndrome, and that's good. Because if you're so confident that you're so amazing and blessed at this specific thing, then your head is probably too big, and [chuckles] you probably don't know what you don't know.
\n\nBut with a lot of my stuff, I'll often just ask people who know better than me. Like, that's a big part of what it is, is you can just consult experts or like, "Hey, what do you think about this?" Or "Is this the best approach?" Or "Here's my code. Do you mind running through it really quickly and see if there's anything that sticks out?" People are often, like, you can pay them, or people are often willing to help, so there's that.
\n\nAnd like, also, you have to just know that this is for the people who enjoy it. Like, I'm not making courses for people who are better developers than I am. I'm making courses for people who like the way that I explain specific things.
\n\nAnd then, like, another thing that probably really helped me is that I have, like, a 100% money back, no time limit on it. And that just makes me feel good about like, hey, like, if this is not actually good, if you do not think that this is good, or if you just don't jive with the way that I explain things, no sweat, you know, here's your money back. You keep going. And that makes me feel a lot better because it's not like I'm trying to fleece somebody for money and trick them into buying the course. Like, I feel pretty good about it, and if you feel pretty good about it, then we're both happy.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, that's amazing because I feel like there's certain things that I would love to get started, but that imposter syndrome and also, like, the opinionated developers out there, like, you know what we are talking about. But it just seems like it would be hard to start with that. So, that's why I asked that question.
\n\nWES: Yeah, I've learned that, like, a lot of these people that have these extremely harsh opinions are, A, they lack all the social skills, so there's something with them that they just don't have it. And you have to understand that that's just something that they have, and they may not be trying to be a jerk. That's just kind of the way they are.
\n\nAnd if people are overly opinionated, it's usually because they're, like, covering for their own insecurity of what they want, not always. But a lot of times, I feel pretty good about people telling me, "Oh, you could do it this way," or "No, why are you doing it this way?" Like, I feel pretty confident in my skillset, but I also am always willing to learn and always willing to be corrected and learn new tips and techniques because that's how you get better.
\n\nSo, the people that are constantly being angry online and throwing around opinions and saying things are garbage, that's very scary for beginners because they think, oh, like, am I learning the wrong thing? I don't want to waste my time here. Like, am I going to lose my job if I don't learn it? And the reality is it's not that cut and dry, you know, it's a lot more easygoing. So, I try to convey that as well. And I don't put too much into these silly people who get really angry at semicolons or something silly like that.
\n\nWILL: That's good advice. That's good advice. Because I think there's been some stuff that I want to do, that's held me back. So, that's really good advice. I appreciate it.
\n\nWES: Yeah, just do it, like, you never know. Like, if someone's calling you out for putting yourself out there, like, that's a really big jerk thing to do. And I've called people out as well. Like, I don't get it as much anymore, and that probably has to do something with the fact that I've sort of established myself. But several times in the early days, people would be, like, mean. And I would just be like, "Hey, like, just call people out, like, nicely, but, like, hey, you don't have to be mean about it. I'm just trying to share what I've learned here." And that usually gets them.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. It's like, what are your intentions with providing this feedback to me right now? Like, are you trying to help? [laughs] Because it doesn't really feel that way. No, I appreciate that. And, you know, I'm also...part of thoughbot we've traditionally put out a lot of trainings, a lot of, you know, Upcase things on Ruby on Rails. And with my team, I'm looking at putting together some workshops around site reliability engineering and things that would be helpful for developers to learn how to instrument their code.
\n\nSo, speaking of advice that you would give to maybe any engineer or any developer who's looking to share their expertise, or put together a course, or even a blog post about what they're learning, like, what would you advise someone who's trying to create content like that?
\n\nWES: Put it out there. When I released my Sublime textbook, keep in mind, a book about Sublime Text that's a pretty niche thing, there was already two books out there on that exact topic. And a couple of times, I was like, is anyone going to want this? There's already one of them out there. Should I even write this blog post? There's 70 out there. And just keep in mind that, like, the way that you explain it or the specific issue that you hit or whatever, it might be the way that really clicks for somebody else.
\n\nSo, I always tell people just put it out there. You never know what is going to come of it. It's likely going to be a net positive for the web development world in general. So, don't ever feel that you shouldn't put yourself out there because you might not know absolutely everything about it. Just share what you know. That's how we get better.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I had a friend many years ago who we used to organize Women Who Code, and she said, "Do you think anyone would really be interested in, like, a cloud series of these topics?" And we're like, "Oh, maybe not." In the first event we had around Cloud for Women Who Code, I think, like, 30 people showed up. So yeah, put it out there, see who's interested, and go from there. That's great advice.
\n\nWES: Yeah. On the same topic, is like, 'Will somebody want this?' is a huge question. People always come to me and they say, "Hey, do you think if I make a course on X, Y, and Z, will people buy it?" Or they'll put out a tweet that says, "Hey, would you buy this, or would you attend this?" And everybody's always like, "Yes, yes, yes," just trying to be supportive. But at the end of the day, you have to test these things by actually putting things out there.
\n\nSo, for me, how did I know the first thing I wanted to do was Sublime Text? It's because I put out blog posts on probably 20 different topics, and those were the posts that just hit really well, and they really resonated with people. So, like, if you're trying to understand, like, will it work? You can test those things very easily by putting a YouTube video up, putting a couple of TikToks up, write a blog post, put a couple of tweets up. And, eventually, when you put out enough content, you're going to start to see a trend in a specific area, and that will give you a little bit of guidance as to what it is you should pursue.
\n\nWILL: That's great advice. Have you had any hurdles through your journey of online courses and the podcast, releasing podcasts?
\n\nWES: I feel like I'm always, like, course-correcting. I've never had, like, a flop. And, like, I've had courses I've shelved. Early on, after Sublime Text, I was like, I'm going to do a gulp course, which was, like, a build tool for JavaScript. And then webpack started to get a little bit more popular, and I was like, okay, well, maybe I'll just make a tooling course in general, but I was like, ah, that's kind of way too big. And after, like, working on it for a couple of weeks, I was like, you know what? Like, I'm going to scrap this because I don't think that this is it, you know?
\n\nSo, just kind of always listening, always feedback, and course correcting is probably my biggest advice there for the hurdles. There's stuff that comes up, like people stealing the courses. And, like, I had early access to one of my courses once, and somebody bought it with a stolen credit card and then put it up online. And, like, that's incredibly deflating because now there's your unfinished course out there before people could even buy it. And people will spam you and run DDoS attacks on you and lots of stuff like that, where people are just...they see that. And that's always really frustrating, but you kind of roll with the punches and kind of keep working on it.
\n\nWILL: Wow. That's interesting. So, someone bought the course with a stolen credit card, and they released it early to the public?
\n\nWES: Yeah. I don't know if I should say this or not, but there's a very large Russian website that is...literally, they have a paid membership, and the whole point is that you pay for the membership, and you get access to every course ever. Sometimes, they use paid cards, and sometimes it's stolen cards.
\n\nWILL: Oh, wow.
\n\nWES: They just buy every course by every creator, and they put it up on this thing. And you can get it for free for the first, like, three months, and then it goes under their paid thing. And that stuff was really frustrating to me at first, but I've learned just to...the web development community is incredibly supportive, and I have nothing to complain about, really. People who do want to support you will support you.
\n\nWILL: That's neat. That's really neat.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And speaking of the web development community, are there events or conferences you go to or different, like, places where you really connect to the web development community?
\n\nWES: Yeah. Conferences are fantastic. I really enjoy that those are back. So, React Miami is coming up. It's going to be a really fun one. But I go to a couple of conferences a year, and I usually speak at them. We also do meetups every now and then with Syntax where we'll rent out a bar and get a bunch of merch and stickers and just kind of chit-chat with everybody. That's honestly, my favorite is just going to a meetup where there's no talks or anything. It's just a bunch of interesting people in a room, and you get to talk with all kinds of cool people.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's fun, yeah. I've been organizing a monthly CTO lunch down here in San Diego, and it's like, we just get together and have lunch and, like, talk about different stuff [laughs].
\n\nWES: Love it.
\n\nVICTORIA: And it's really great. I used to organize those meetups with, like, two speakers, and then there was pizza and drinks and all that stuff to coordinate. And it's a lot easier just to kind of get everyone together and talk, which is what most people want anyways [laughs].
\n\nWES: I'm always bummed when you go to a conference and the, like, after party has, like, a band or, like, music is bumping. It's like, I just want a quiet room with some drinks that I can talk to people and have a good conversation, you know.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I go to a lot of events, a lot of conferences, a lot of events. I see a lot of different types of stickers and design and anything like that. So, I thought it might be fun to ask you about that. Like, you know, I don't know if you can share us a link of what your stickers look like. Or how do you make it fun and interesting for you to have that kind of thing to hand out?
\n\nWES: Once a year, once a year and a half, I make these sticker packs, and they have, I don't know, 15 or so stickers in it, various web development things. And it's a pretty big production because I get a lot of them done. So, the last time I sold 11,000 packages of them, and I sell them for five bucks shipped anywhere in the world. And it's, like, a huge logistical hurdle to try to make that happen because there's so much to it.
\n\nBut it's really fun for me because I'm able to do something that is fun. A lot of people aren't able to go to conferences and get the stickers, and they want that. They want to feel part of a community, and everybody loves getting a pack of stickers. So, I've been doing that for probably seven years now. Just right now, I'm just doing a little bit of research into what the next pack is going to look like and some new materials that have hit the sticker world [laughs], so it's pretty fun.
\n\nThe website is bos.af with, like, bos.af. That might not work anymore. I got note that the people who I registered the dot AF domain name from have lost contact with the Afghanistan domain authorities. So, it's possible I might just lose that domain name, which is a bit of a bummer because that's a really cool domain name, but that's where I sell them once a year. And, usually, they're only for sale for about a week, and then they're done selling, and I do the whole shipping thing around the world.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow. I did not think you were going to say, "Sold 11,000" sticker packs. That's really impressive [laughs].
\n\nWES: Yeah, it's crazy. It's almost 200,000 stickers if you think about it.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's, like, a major production. I bet when you got into web development, you didn't think you'd also have a side hustle making stickers off of it [laughs].
\n\nWES: Yeah, it's crazy. Like, I was, like, sending them out with stamps, and it's just like, I was holding in one single hand, like, $4,000 worth of stamps. It's crazy to think.
\n\nVICTORIA: I can imagine going into the post office and being like, "I need $4,000 worth of stamps [laughs]," but that's great.
\n\nWES: The first time I just started dumping them into mail, I would cross the border because I'm in Canada, and the USPS is much cheaper. So, we would just cross the border, and then we just dumped them into mailboxes. And it was okay. But they were like, "Hey, like, next time, just, like, bring it to the post office, and, like, we have processes for this much mail." I don't mail them out of the U.S. anymore because there's some weird stuff around crossing the border. You have to do all this crazy stuff. But it's pretty crazy buying that many stamps. They usually look at you funny when you go to the store and say, "Hey, I need this many stamps."
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nVICTORIA: They're like, "Well, what are you doing?" [laughs] Well, great. I think, let's see, we're coming up at the end of our time here. So, are there any final takeaways for our listeners today?
\n\nWES: Check me out. I'm at wesbos.com; podcast is at syntax.fm if you want to give it a listen. We post three times a week. And I just encourage everyone keep learning, keep excited about web development because it's a pretty cool industry.
\n\nVICTORIA: Awesome. Thank you so much for taking time to chat with us today. I really enjoyed our conversation.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on X, formerly known as Twitter, @victori_ousg.
\n\nWILL: And you could find me on X @will23larry.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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If you missed the other episodes with thoughtbot Incubator Program partcipants and founders Mike Rosenthal and Chris Cerrito of Goodz, you can listen to the first episode and the second episode, and the third episode to catch up!
\n\nLindsey Christensen and Jordyn Bonds catch up with the co-founders of Goodz, Chris Cerrito and Mike Rosenthal, where they share insights from their journey during the Incubator program, including the usefulness of the application process in aligning their vision and the challenges and benefits of user interviews and the importance of not overreacting to single user feedback and finding a balance in responding to diverse opinions. They reveal the varied reactions of users to Goodz's product, highlighting the different market segments interested in it.
\n\nAs the Incubator program nears its end for Goodz, Chris and Mike reflect on their achievements and future plans. They've made significant progress, such as setting up an e-commerce site and conducting successful user interviews. The co-founders discuss their excitement about the potential of their product and the validation they received from users. Mike mentions the importance of focusing on B2B sales and the possibility of upcoming events like South by Southwest and Record Store Day.
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nLINDSEY: Thanks for being here. My name's Lindsey. I head up marketing at thoughtbot. If you haven't joined one of these before, we are checking in with two of the founders who are going through the thoughtbot Startup Incubator to learn how it's going, what's new, what challenges they're hitting, and what they're learning along the way.
\n\nIf you're not familiar with thoughtbot, we're a product design and development consultancy, and we hope your team and your product become a success. And one way we do that is through our startup incubator.
\n\nSo, today, we are joined by our co-founders, Mike Rosenthal and Chris Cerrito, Co-Founders of the startup Goodz. And we also have another special guest today, Danny Kim, from the thoughtbot side, Senior Product Manager at thoughtbot. So, I think, to start off, we'll head over to the new face, the new voice that we've got with us today. Danny, tell us a little bit about your role at thoughtbot and, specifically, the incubator.
\n\nDANNY: Yeah, sure. First of all, thanks for having me on, and thanks for letting me join in on all the fun. I'm one of the product managers at thoughtbot. I typically work for the Lift-Off team. We usually work with companies that are looking to, like, go into market with their first version MVP. They might have a product that exists and that they're already kind of doing well with, and they kind of want to jump into a new segment. We'll typically work with companies like that to kind of get them kicked off the ground.
\n\nBut it's been really awesome being part of the incubator program. It's my first time in helping with the market validation side. Definitely also, like, learning a lot from this experience [laughs] for myself. Coming at it specifically from a PM perspective, there's, like, so much variation usually in product management across the industry, depending on, like, what stage of the product that you're working in. And so, I'm definitely feeling my fair share of impostor syndrome here.
\n\nBut it's been really fun to stretch my brand and, like, approach problems from, like, a completely different perspective and also using different tools. But, you know, working with Mike and Chris makes it so much easier because they really make it feel like you're part of their team, and so that definitely goes a long way.
\n\nLINDSEY: It just goes to show everyone gets impostor syndrome sometimes [laughter], even senior product managers at thoughtbot [laughter]. Thanks for that intro. It's, you know, the thoughtbot team learns along the way, too, you know, especially if usually you're focused on a different stage of product development.
\n\nMike, it's been only three weeks or a very long three weeks since last we checked in with you, kind of forever in startup time. So, I think the last time, we were just getting to know you two. And you were walking us through the concept, this merging of the digital and physical world of music, and how we interact with music keepsakes or merchandise. How's my pitch?
\n\nMIKE: Good. Great. You're killing it.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nLINDSEY: And has anything major changed to that concept in the last three weeks?
\n\nMIKE: No. I mean, I can't believe it's only been three weeks. It feels like it's been a long time since we last talked. It's been an intense three weeks, for sure. No, it's been going really well. I mean, we launched all sorts of stuff. I'm trying to think of anything that's sort of fundamentally changed in terms of the plan itself or kind of our, yeah, what we've been working on. And I think we've pretty much stayed the course to sort of get to where we are now. But it's been really intensive.
\n\nI think also having sort of Thanksgiving in there, and we were kind of pushing to get something live right before the Thanksgiving break. And so, that week just felt, I mean, I was just dead by, you know, like, Thursday of Thanksgiving. I think we all were. So, it's been intense, I would say, is the short answer. And I'm happy, yeah, to get into kind of where things are at. But big picture, it's been an intense three weeks.
\n\nLINDSEY: That's cool. And when we talked, you were, you know, definitely getting into research and user interviews. Have those influenced any, you know, changes along the way in the plan?
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. They've been really helpful. You know, we'd never really done that before in any of the sort of past projects that we've worked on together. And so, I think just being able to, you know, read through some of those scripts and then sit through some of the interviews and just kind of hearing people's honest assessment of some things has been really interesting. I'm trying to think if it's materially affected anything.
\n\nI guess, you know, at first, we were, like, we kind of had some assumptions around, okay, let's try to find, like...adult gift-givers sounds like the wrong thing, adults who give gifts as, like, a persona. The idea that, like, you know, maybe you gift your siblings gifts, and then maybe this could be a good gift idea. And I think, you know, we had a hard time kind of finding people to talk in an interesting way about that. And I think we've kind of realized it's kind of a hard persona to kind of chop up and talk about, right, Chris? I don't know [crosstalk 04:55]
\n\nCHRIS: Well, it also seemed to, from my understanding of it, it seemed to, like, genuinely stress out the people who were being interviewed...
\n\nMIKE: [laughs]
\n\nCHRIS: Because it's kind of about a stressful topic [inaudible 05:03], you know, and, like, especially --
\n\nLINDSEY: Why? [laughs]
\n\nCHRIS: Well, I think, I don't know, now I'm making assumptions. Maybe because we're close to the holiday season, and that's a topic in the back of everybody's mind. But yeah, Danny, would you disagree with that? Those folks, from what we heard, seemed like they were the most difficult to kind of extract answers from. But then, if the subject changed and we treated them as a different persona, several of those interviews proved to be quite fruitful. So, it's just really interesting.
\n\nDANNY: Yeah. It really started, like, you kind of try to get some answers out of people, and there's, like, some level of people trying to please you to some extent. That's just, like, naturally, how it starts. And you just, like, keep trying to drill into the answers. And you just keep asking people like, "So, what kind of gifts do you give?" And they're just like, "Oh my goodness, like, I haven't thought about buying gifts for my sister in [laughs], like, you know, in forever. And now, like [laughs], I don't know where to go." And they get, like, pretty stressed out about it.
\n\nBut then we just kind of started shifting into like, "All right, cool, never mind about that. Like, do you like listening to music?" And they're like, "Yes." And then it just kind of explodes from there. And they're like, "This last concert that I went to..." and all of this stuff. And it was much more fruitful kind of leaning more towards that, actually, yeah.
\n\nLINDSEY: That's fascinating. I guess that speaks to, especially at this stage and the speed and the amount of interviews you're doing, the need for being, like, really agile in those interviews, and then, like, really quickly applying what you're learning to making the next one even more valuable.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. And I think, you know, like, we launched just a little sort of website experiment or, like, an e-commerce experiment right before Thanksgiving. And I think now, you know, we're able to sort of take some of those learnings from those interviews and apply them to both sort of our ad copy itself but also just different landing pages in different language on the different kind of versions of the site and see if we can find some resonance with some of these audience groups. So, it's been interesting.
\n\nLINDSEY: Are you still trying to figure out who that early adopter audience is, who that niche persona is?
\n\nMIKE: I think we --
\n\nCHRIS: Yes, we are. I think we have a good idea of who it is. And I think right now we're just trying to figure out really how to reach those people. That, I think, is the biggest challenge right now for us.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. With the e-commerce experiment it was sort of a very specific niche thing that is a little bit adjacent to what I think we want to be doing longer term with Goodz. And so, it's weird. It's like, we're in a place we're like, oh, we really want to find the people that want this thing. But also, this thing isn't necessarily the thing that we think we're going to make longer term, so let's not worry too hard about finding them. You know what I mean? It's been an interesting sort of back and forth with that.
\n\nCHRIS: From the interviews that we conducted, you know, we identified three key personas. Most of them have come up, but I'll just relist them. There's the sibling gift giver. There was the merch buyers; these are people who go to concerts and buy merchandise, you know, T-shirts, albums, records, things along those lines to support the artists that they love. And then the final one that was identified we gave the title of the 'Proud Playlister'. And these are people who are really into their digital media platforms, love making playlists, and love sharing those playlists with their friends.
\n\nAnd that, I would say, the proud playlister is really the one that we have focused on in terms of the storefront that we launched, like, the product is pretty much specifically for them. But the lessons that we're learning while making this product and trying to get this into the hands of the proud playlisters will feed into kind of the merch buyers.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. And I think that, you know, it's funny, like, this week is kind of a poignant week for this, right? Because it's the week that Spotify Wrapped launched, right? So, it's like, in the course of any given year, it's probably, like, the one week of the year that lots and lots and lots of people are thinking about playlists all of a sudden, so trying a little bit to see if we can ride that wave or just kind of dovetail with that a bit, too.
\n\nLINDSEY: Absolutely. And do you want to give just, like, the really quick reminder of what the product experience is like?
\n\nMIKE: Oh yeah [laughs], good call.
\n\nCHRIS: This is a prototype of it. It's called the Goodz Mixtape. Basically, the idea is that you purchase one of these from us. You give us a playlist URL. We program that URL onto the NFC chip that's embedded in the Good itself. And then when you scan this Good, that playlist will come up. So, it's a really great way of you make a playlist for somebody, and you want to gift it to them; this is a great way to do that. You have a special playlist, maybe between you and a friend or you and a partner. This is a good way to commemorate that playlist, turn it into a physical thing, give that digital file value and presence in the physical world.
\n\nLINDSEY: Great. Okay, so you casually mentioned this launch of an e-commerce store that happened last week.
\n\nMIKE: It didn't feel casual.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. Why [laughter]...[inaudible 09:45] real casual. Why did you launch it? How's it going?
\n\nMIKE: I don't know. Why did we launch it? I mean, well, we wanted to be able to test some assumptions. I think, you know, we wanted to get the brand out there a little bit, get our website out there, kind of introduce the concept. You know, this is a very...not that we've invented this product category, but it is a pretty obscure product category, right? And so, there's a lot of sort of consumer education that I think that has to go on for people to wrap their heads around this and why they'd want this.
\n\nSo, I think we wanted to start that process a little bit correctly, sort of in advance of a larger launch next year, and see if we could find some early community around this. You know, if we can find those core people who just absolutely love this, and connect with it, and go wild around it, then those are the people that we're going to be able to get a ton of information from and build for that persona, right? It's like, cool, these are the people who love this. Let's build more for them and go find other people like this. So, I think, for us, it was that.
\n\nAnd then, honestly, it was also just, you know, let's test our manufacturing and fulfillment and logistics capabilities, right? I mean, this is...as much as we are a B2B, you know, SaaS platform or that's what we envision the future of Goodz being, there is a physical component of this. And, you know, we do have that part basically done at this point. But we just, you know, what is it like to order 1,000 of these?
\n\nWhat is it like to put these in the mail to people and, you know, actually take orders? And just some of that processing because we do envision a more wholesale future where we're doing, you know, thousands or tens of thousands of this at a time. And so, I think we just want to button up and do some dry runs before we get to those kinds of numbers.
\n\nCHRIS: I think it also it's important to remember that we are talking in startup time. And while this last week seems like an eternity, it's been a week [laughs] that we've had this in place. So, we're just starting to learn these things, and we plan on continuing to do so.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. But I think we thought that getting a website up would be a good way to just start kind of testing everything more.
\n\nLINDSEY: Great. Danny, what went into deciding what would be in this first version of the site and the e-commerce offering?
\n\nDANNY: I mean, a lot of it was kind of mostly driven by Chris and Mike. They kind of had a vision and an idea of what they wanted to sell. Obviously, from the user interviews, we were starting to hone in a little bit more and, like, we had some assumptions going into it. I think we ultimately did kind of feel like, yeah, I think, like, the playlisters seem to be, like, the target market. But just hearing it more and hearing more excitement from them was definitely just kind of like, yeah, I think we can double down on this piece.
\n\nBut, ultimately, like, in terms of launching the e-commerce platform, and the storefront, and the website, like, just literally looking at the user journey and being like, how does a user get from getting onto a site, like, as soon as they land there to, like, finishing a purchase? And what points do they need? What are the key things that they need to think through and typically will run into? And a lot of it is just kind of reflecting on our own personal buyer behavior.
\n\nAnd, also, as we were getting closer to the launch, starting to work through some of those assumptions about buyer behavior. As we got there, we obviously had some prototypes. We had some screenshots that we were already working with. Like, the design team was already starting to build out some of the site. And so, we would just kind of show it to them, show it to our users, and just be like, hey, like, how do you expect to purchase this? Like, what's the next step that you expect to take? And we'd just kind of, like, continue to iterate on that piece. And so...
\n\nLINDSEY: Okay. So you were, before launching, even showing some of those mockups and starting to incorporate them in the user interviews.
\n\nDANNY: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we tried to get it in there in front of them as early as possible, partially because, like, at some point in the user interviews, like, you're mostly just trying to first understand, like, who are our target customers? Who are these people? And we have an assumption of or an idea of who we think they are. But really, like, once you start talking to people, you kind of are, like, okay, like, this thing that I thought maybe it wasn't so accurate, or, like, the way that they're kind of talking about these products doesn't 100% match what I originally walked into this, you know, experiment with. And so, we, like, start to hone in on that.
\n\nBut after a certain point, you kind of get that idea and now you're just like, okay, you seem to be, like, the right person to talk to. And so, if I were to show you this thing, do you get it, right? Like, do you understand what's happening? Like, how to use this thing, what this product even does. And then also, like, does the checkout experience feel intuitive for you? Is it as simple as, like, I just want to buy a T-shirt? So, like, I'm just going to go by the T-shirt, pick a size, and, you know, move on with my life. Can we make it as seamless as that?
\n\nLINDSEY: And so, you mentioned it's only been a week since it's been live. Have you been able to learn anything from it yet? And how are you trying to drive people to it today?
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, I think we learned that sales is hard [laughs] and slow, and it takes some time. But it's good, and we're learning a lot. I mean, it's been a while since I've really dug deep in, like, the analytics and marketing kind of metrics. And so, we've got all the Google Tag Manager stuff, you know, hooked up and just, you know, connecting with just exploring, honestly, like the TikTok advertising platform, and the YouTube Pre-Rolls, and Shorts. And, like, a lot of stuff that I actually, since the last time I was heavily involved in this stuff, is just totally new and different.
\n\nAnd so, it's been super interesting to see the funnel and sort of see where people are getting in the site, where people are dropping off. You know, we had an interesting conversation in our thoughtbot sync yesterday or the day before, where we were seeing how, you know, we're getting lots of people to the front page and, actually, a good number of people to the product page, and, actually, like, you know, not the worst number of people to the cart. But then you were seeing really high cart abandonment rates.
\n\nAnd then, you know, when you start Googling, and you're like, oh, actually, everybody sees very high cart abandonment rates; that's just a thing. But we were seeing, like, the people were viewing their cart seven or eight times, and they were on there sort of five times as long as they were on any other page. And it's this problem that I think Danny is talking about where, you know, we need to actually get a playlist URL. This gets into the minutiae of what we're building, but basically like, we need to get them to give us a playlist URL in order to check out, right?
\n\nAnd so, you sort of have to, like, put yourself back in the mind of someone who's scrolling on Instagram, and they see this as an ad, and they click it, and they're like, oh, that thing was cool. Sure, I will buy one of those. And then it's like, no, actually, you need to, you know, leave this, go into a different app, find a play...like, it suddenly just puts a lot of the mental strain. But it's a lot. It's a cognitive load, greater than, as you said, just buying a T-shirt and telling what size you want.
\n\nSo, thinking through ways to really trim that down, shore up the amount of time people are spending on a cart. All that stuff has been fascinating. And then just, like, the different demographic kind of work that we're using, all the social ads platforms to kind of identify has been really interesting. It's still early.
\n\nBut, actually, like, Chris and I were just noticing...we were just talking right before this call. Like, we're actually starting to get, just in the last 12 hours, a bunch more, a bunch, but more people signing up to our email newsletter, probably in the last 12 hours that we have in the whole of last week. Yeah, I don't know, just even that sort of learning, it's like, oh, do people just need time with a thing, or they come back and they think about it?
\n\nCHRIS: Yeah. Could these people be working on their playlists? That's a question that I have.
\n\nMIKE: [chuckles] Yeah, me too.
\n\nCHRIS: It's like, you know, I'm making a playlist to drop into this product. It's really interesting. And I think it gives insight to kind of, you know, how personal this product could be, that this is something that takes effort on the part of the consumer because they're making something to give or to keep for themselves, which is, I think, really interesting but definitely hard, too.
\n\nDANNY: Yeah. And I also want to also clarify, like, Chris just kind of said it, like, especially for viewers and listeners, like, that's something that we've been hearing a lot from user interviews, too, right? Like, the language that they're using is, like, this is a thing that I care about. Like it's a representation of who I am. It's a representation of, like, the relationship that I have with this person that I'm going to be giving, you know, this gift to or this playlist to, specifically, like, people who feel, like, really passionate about these things. And, I mean, like, I did, too.
\n\nLike, when I was first trying to, like, date, my wife, like, I spent, like, hours, hours trying to pick the coolest songs that I thought, you know, were like, oh, like, she's going to think I'm so cool because, like, I listen to these, like, super low-key indie rock bands, and, like, you know, so many more hours than she probably spent listening to it. But that's [laughs] kind of, like, honestly, what we heard a lot in a lot of these interviews, so...
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, same. No, totally resonates. And I also went to the site this week, and I was like, oh damn, this is cool. Like, and immediately it was like, oh, you know, I've got these three, you know, music friends that we go to shows together. I'm like, oh, this would be so cool to get them, you know, playlists of, like, music we've seen together. So, you might see me in the cart. I won't abandon it.
\n\nMIKE: Please. I would love that.
\n\nCHRIS: Don't think about it too long if you could -- [laughter].
\n\nLINDSEY: I won't. I won't.
\n\nCHRIS: I mean, I would say I'm really excited about having the site not only as a vehicle for selling some of these things but also as a vehicle for just honing our message. It's like another tool that we have in our arsenal. During the user interviews themselves, we were talking in abstract terms, and now we have something concrete that we can bounce off people, which is, I think, going to be a huge boon to our toolset as we continue to refine and define this product.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, that's a good point.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. You mentioned that they're signing up for, like, email updates. Do you have something you're sending out? Or are you kind of just creating a list? Totally fine, just building a list.
\n\nMIKE: [laughs] No.
\n\nCHRIS: It's a picture of Mike and I giving a big thumbs up. That's, yeah. [laughter]
\n\nMIKE: No. But maybe...that was the thing; I was like, oh great, they're signing up. And I was like, gosh, they're signing up. Okay [laughter], now we got to write something. But we will.
\n\nLINDSEY: Tips to making your playlist [crosstalk 19:11] playing your playlist --
\n\nMIKE: Yeah [crosstalk 19:13].
\n\nCHRIS: Right. And then also...tips to making your playlists. Also, we're advancing on the collectible side of things, too. We are, hopefully, going to have two pilot programs in place, one with a major label and one with a major artist. And we're really excited about that.
\n\nLINDSEY: Okay. That's cool. I assume you can't tell us very much. What can you tell us?
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. We won't mention names [chuckles] in case it just goes away, as these things sometimes do. But yeah, there's a great band who's super excited about these, been around for a long time, some good name recognition, and a very loyal fan base. They want to do sort of a collection of these. I think maybe we showed the little...I can't remember if we showed the little crates that we make or not, but basically, [inaudible 19:52]
\n\nLINDSEY: The last time, yeah.
\n\nMIKE: So, they want to sell online a package that's, you know, five or six Goodz in a crate, which I think will be cool and a great sort of sales experiment. And then there's a couple of artists that we're going to do an experiment with that's through their label that's more about tour...basically, giving things away on tour. So, they're going to do some giveaway fan club street team-style experiments with some of these on the road.
\n\nSo, first, it's ideal, provided both those things happen, because we definitely want to be exploring on the road and online stuff. And so, this kind of lets us do both at once and get some real learnings as to kind of how people...because we still don't know. We haven't really put these in people's hands yet. And it's just, like, are people scanning these a lot? Are they not? Is this sort of an object that's sitting on their shelf? Is it...yeah, it's just, like, there's so much we're going to learn once we get these into people's hands.
\n\nLINDSEY: Do you have the infrastructure to sort of see how many times the cards are scanned?
\n\nCHRIS: Mm-hmm. Yep, we do.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. So, we can see how many times each one is scanned, where they're scanned, that sort of thing.
\n\nCHRIS: Kind of our next step, and something we were just talking about today with the thoughtbot team, is building out kind of what the backend will be for this, both for users and also for labels and artists. That it will allow them to go in and post updates to the Goodz, to allow them to use these for promotion as people, you know, scan into them to give them links to other sites related to the artists that they might be interested in before they move on to the actual musical playlist. So, that's kind of the next step for us. And knowing how users use these collectibles, both the kind of consumer Good and the artist collectibles that we were just talking about, will help inform how we build that platform.
\n\nLINDSEY: Very cool. And right now, the online store itself that's built in Shopify?
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. The homepage is Webflow that Kevin from the thoughtbot team really spearheaded in building for us. And then, yeah, the e-commerce is Shopify.
\n\nLINDSEY: Y'all have been busy.
\n\nMIKE: [laughs]
\n\nLINDSEY: Is there anything else maybe that I haven't asked about yet that we should touch on in terms of updates or things going on with the product?
\n\nMIKE: I don't know. I don't think so. I think, like Chris said, I mean, we're just...like, now that the site has kind of stood up and we're really switched over to kind of marketing and advertising on that, definitely digging into the backend of this kind of SaaS platform that's going to probably be a big focus for the rest of the, you know, the program, to be honest. Yeah, just some other things we can do on the next front that could eventually build into the backend that I think can be interesting. No, I guess [laughs] the short answer is no, nothing, like, substantial. Those are the big [crosstalk 22:26]
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. Well, that was my next question, too, which is kind of like, what's next, or what's the next chunk of work? So, it's obviously lots more optimization and learning on the e-commerce platform, and then this other mega area, which is, you know, what does this look like as a SaaS solution? What's the vision? But also, where do we start? Which I'm sure, Danny, is a lot of work that you specialize in as far as, like, scoping how to approach these kinds of projects.
\n\nDANNY: Yeah. And it's interesting because, I mean, we were just talking about this today. Like, part of it is, like, we can, like, really dig into, like, the e-commerce site and, like, really nailing it down to get it to the place where it's like, we're driving tons more traffic and also getting as low of a, like, cart abandonment rate as possible, right? But also, considering the fact that this is in the future, like, large-scale vision.
\n\nAnd there's, like, also, like, we're starting to, I think, now iron out a lot of those, like, milestones where we're kind of like, okay, like, we got, like, a short-term vision, which is, like, the e-commerce site. We got a mid-term vision and a potential long-term vision. How do we validate this long-term vision while also still like, keeping this short-term vision moving forward?
\n\nAnd, like, this mid-term vision is also going to, like, help potentially, either, like, steer us towards that long-term or maybe even, like, pivot us, like, into a completely different direction. So, like, where do you put your card, right? Like, how much energy and time do we put into, like, each of these areas? And that's kind of, like, the interesting part of this is starting to talk through that, starting to kind of prioritize, like, how we can maximize on our effort, like, our development and design effort so that things just kind of line up more naturally and organically for our future visioning, so...
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. A lot of different things to juggle. I saw there was a question. Somebody asked what the URL is, but I don't seem to be able to [crosstalk 24:10].
\n\nLINDSEY: The same question as me. We got to drop the link for this thing.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, getthegoodz.com.
\n\nCHRIS: That's G-O-O-D-Z.
\n\nLINDSEY: Get in there, folks
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, get [crosstalk 24:23].
\n\nLINDSEY: And let us know how it goes.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, please [laughs]. Any bugs? Let us know. Yeah. I think that those...yeah, I mean, it's a good point, Danny, in terms of juggling kind of the near-term and longer-term stuff. You know, it's a good kind of reminder our big focus, you know, in the new year is going to be fundraising, right? We're already talking to some investors and things like that.
\n\nSo, it's like, okay, yes, as you said, we could tweak the cart. We could tweak the e-commerce. Or, like, can we paint the big picture of what the longer-term version of this company is going to be in a way that makes it compelling for investment to come in so that there can be a long-term version of this company? And then we can build those things. So yeah, it's definitely a balance between the two.
\n\nLINDSEY: Oh, also, just casual fundraising as well.
\n\n[crosstalk 25:06]
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, yeah.
\n\nLINDSEY: [laughs]
\n\nMIKE: But it's hard. It's like, you wake up in the morning. It's like, do I want to, like, write cold emails to investors? Or do I want to, like, look at Google Analytics and, like, tweak ad copy? That's actually more fun. So, yes.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, life of the founder, for sure. All right. So, that's getthegoodz (Goodz with a z) .com. Check it out. We'll tune in and see what happens with the e-commerce site, what happens with the SaaS planning the next time that we check in.
\n\nBut Chris, Mike, Danny, thank you so much for joining today and sharing what's been going on over the last few weeks: the good, the bad, the challenge, the cart abandonment. And, you know, best of luck to you over the next few weeks, and we'll be sure to check in and see how it's going.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nLINDSEY: Thank you to our viewers and listeners. We are catching up once again with one of the startups going through the thoughtbot Incubator. My name is Lindsey Christensen. I'm joined today by Jordyn Bonds, who heads up the thoughtbot incubator, as well as our Co-Founders of Goodz, Chris Cerrito and Mike Rosenthal. Welcome, everybody.
\n\nMIKE: Thanks, Lindsey.
\n\nLINDSEY: Before we get started, before we put Chris and Mike back in the hot seat, at the top here, Jordyn, we have a special announcement for our viewers and listeners.
\n\nJORDYN: Application window is open for session 1 of 2024, folks. You can go to thoughtbot.com/incubator and apply. And Chris and Mike can tell you how easy or hard applying was.
\n\nMIKE: It was easy. It was totally easy. It's a very straightforward process.
\n\nCHRIS: Yeah, it was way more straightforward than a lot of applications that we've dealt with in the past, for sure.
\n\nJORDYN: Ha-ha. And if you've got a business idea that involves software but you haven't gotten anything out there yet, come talk to us. We will help you make sure that it's a good idea and that there are people who might buy it, and maybe get you even a little further than that.
\n\nMIKE: We actually have a friend who's considering applying. I'll tell him applications are open. He's worried his idea is not big enough to actually be a business idea, so we'll see.
\n\nCHRIS: Even the process of doing the application was really helpful for us because it helped us get aligned on exactly what we were doing, yeah.
\n\nJORDYN: I love that. And I found that to be true when I was a founder applying to some of these things, in particular, applying for an SBIR grant was one of the most challenging things that we did, but it was so productive. I was so annoyed by it at the time, and then I cribbed from that thing. It actually sort of forced us to make a business plan [laughs], and then, basically, we ran it, and it was great [laughs].
\n\nCHRIS: Yeah. I think that was, for us, that was our point where we were like, "Is this idea fleshed out enough to move forward?" And we were like, "Yes, it is. Let's go. Let's do this."
\n\nJORDYN: So, use the application as a forcing function, everybody. It will help you clarify your thinking.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. Jordyn, what would you say to Mike's friend who's questioning if their idea is big enough? How do you respond to that sentiment?
\n\nJORDYN: That is a fascinating sentiment because I feel like so much more often, I am trying to help founders with the opposite problem where they think this thing is so big that they are not thinking about what step 1 is going to look like. They're just, like, in 10 years, we're going to be the next Amazon, and I'm like, "Maybe [laughter]. Let me help you figure out how to get to that giant vision." So, I don't come across the "Is this big enough to be a business?" question as often. And, I don't know, what would I say? I guess I need the details.
\n\nLINDSEY: It could be a perfect fit
\n\nMIKE: It could be.
\n\nJORDYN: It could be a perfect fit.
\n\nLINDSEY: In a way, that's what you're answering, right?
\n\nMIKE: Right.
\n\nLINDSEY: In some of this work.
\n\nMIKE: That is true. So, yeah, you guys would certainly...just thinking through the process we've gone through the last two months, it would definitely help them flesh that out.
\n\nLINDSEY: Which is a great segue.
\n\nMIKE: Great segue.
\n\nLINDSEY: Chris and Mike, we're actually coming up to the end of your incubator time.
\n\nCHRIS: It's so sad.
\n\nLINDSEY: Can you believe it?
\n\nMIKE: It's gone by really fast. I mean, eight weeks is not a long time, but it has gone by very, very fast.
\n\nCHRIS: It felt like a very long time in the middle of it.
\n\nMIKE: [laughs]
\n\nCHRIS: But now that it's over, it feels like a blink that it's coming to a close.
\n\nMIKE: I don't know. It's funny. I think we had some note in our retro today that was like, maybe the very end of the year is not the best time to do an accelerator just because you have, like, the holidays kind of jumping in here in the end. So, that might have helped make it feel like a... I feel like the end of the year always feels like a rush anyway. So, I think just life gets a little bit busier this time of year, too, but yeah.
\n\nCHRIS: Yeah, my gingerbread man decorating game is, like, really down this season because we've been so busy. Tragic.
\n\nLINDSEY: Chris, can you remind our viewers and listeners who might not be familiar what was the idea that you and Mike have been exploring with the incubator or, like, what did you come in with?
\n\nCHRIS: So, with Goodz, what we're trying to do is make little, physical collectibles objects that connect back to the digital content that a user loves. The idea being that today, we are awash in these digital files, links, so many things on our desktops, on our phones, on our devices, and it's really hard to tell which part of those are really, really important to us. So, by giving them a presence in the physical world, that denotes that's something that's really important, worth keeping, worth sharing, and showing off to your friends and family.
\n\nAnd to start this off, mostly because Mike and I are both kind of music nerds, we're starting off with a music focus, but at some point, we're hoping to move into other realms, too.
\n\nLINDSEY: And a lot of the incubator, as repeat listeners will know, is focused on really kind of evolving user interviews all the way through and narrowing in on, you know, a core audience, a core market. Mike, how has that evolution been? I think the last time we chatted was around three weeks ago. What has the latest iteration of user interviews looked like in terms of the people you're talking to and even what you're asking them?
\n\nMIKE: It's been a really fascinating process. I mean, I'm trying to think of where we were exactly the last time we talked to you, but I think we'd probably just launched the e-commerce site that we had been experimenting with putting up.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, exactly.
\n\nMIKE: And so, and we really then started cranking on user interviews kind of once that was live. And so, moving away from the conceptual and more into like, "Okay, share your screen. Here's the link. Like, tell me what you think is going on here," and really sort of getting users who had never, you know, never heard our pitch, never been involved with us to sort of try to wrap their heads around what we are and what we're doing just based on that website and trying to sort of make iterative changes based on that.
\n\nYou know, for me, because I had not done user interviews very much in the past, like, it's very tempting, like, you get sort of 1 note from 1 person in 1 interview, and you're like, oh, we need to change this word. That word didn't make any sense to them, or this thing needs to be blue instead of pink. I think, for me, it was like, all right, how do we kind of synthesize this data in a responsible way?
\n\nAnd it emerged naturally, which, I mean, Jordyn and all thoughtbot folks said that it would, but you sort of started hearing the same things again and again. And we never really got to a place where, like, you heard the exact same things from everyone. But there were enough buckets, I feel like, where we're like, okay, like, this part really isn't making that much sense to people, or, like, we do really need to, you know, structure this differently to convey.
\n\nSo, it was a bunch of that kind of work over the last three weeks or so and sort of just getting a sense of like, are we conveying our message? It's hard. I mean, it's a new, like, we're not the only people making physical products with NFC chips in them, but it is not the most common, like, product. Like, it is kind of a new category out there. And so, really trying to understand just right off the bat, do people get it? And you get wildly different answers [laughs] as to whether they get it or they don't, which has been fascinating, too.
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah. [crosstalk 7:12]
\n\nLINDSEY: Chris or Jordyn, anything to add there?
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah. You get the best, like, bootcamp in the don't overreact to a single user interview experience in some ways because we [laughs]...it would literally be like, interview in the morning someone says this thing. Interview in the afternoon, someone says the exact opposite thing [laughter]. And you're like, okay [laughs], like, which one of these things are we going to respond to, if either of them?
\n\nCHRIS: Yeah. It's hard. As somebody with, like, a strong desire to please, it's hard to reign yourself in and want to change things immediately, but it definitely makes sense to do so in the long run.
\n\nMIKE: But yeah, but, I mean, like I said, I do feel like it kind of came down to buckets. It's like, okay, you're that. I can, like, categorize you with all those other people and you with all those other people. And yeah, I hear you. I'm like, yeah, it's tempting to want to please them all.
\n\nBut I think with this one, we're fighting hard to be like...or we sort of have a philosophy that this product is emphatically not for everyone because, at the end of the day, you get a lot of people who are like, "Wait, you're just putting a link to a streaming playlist on a physical object? Why don't I just text someone the link?" And sometimes that breaks down by age group, like, 18-year-olds being like, "What are you talking about, old man?
\n\nLINDSEY: [laughs]
\n\nMIKE: Like, why the hell would I do that? It makes no sense." But it sort of skews all over the age ranges. But then there'll be other people who are 18 or 20 years old who are like, "Wow, I never had cassettes when I was growing up," or "I never got to make, you know, mixtapes or CD-Rs for people." And like, you know, so it's, yeah, it's about finding the people who are the early adopters. As Jordyn has said a lot, it's like, we need to find those early adopters and, like, make them love us, and then other people will come later.
\n\nCHRIS: I mean, some of the most gratifying moments, I think, are there's been some interviews where people have been so excited that after the interview, they've gone and purchased our products, which is just, like, the coolest feeling ever.
\n\nLINDSEY: Wow.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, it's pretty cool.
\n\nLINDSEY: Are you open to sharing a little bit more about what those buckets or what those segments look like?
\n\nCHRIS: I mean, I think there's folks who outright just get it almost immediately, and I think those people tend to be hardcore music collectors, hardcore music fans, Jordyn and Mike, please feel free to jump in if you disagree with any of this. They just get it right off the bat.
\n\nThen I think there's, in my experience, there's another bucket of people who are a little more hesitant, and maybe they wouldn't buy it, but they seemed really excited about the idea of getting one as a gift, which is really interesting. They're like, "I don't know if I'd buy this, but I'd really like to have one." And then there is another segment, like, which Mike just mentioned, of folks who just don't see the value in this whatsoever, which is totally fair.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, totally. I think it's also...I see it almost as, like, a matrix. There's, like, desirability, and, like, technical understanding because people were like, "I technically understand what this is, and I do not want it in my life." Or like, "I get what this is and, oh my God, I have to have that," or like, "I don't really understand what you're talking about, but, man, I love physical stuff. Like, sure I want..." you know, it's like, it goes across those two planes, I think.
\n\nJORDYN: I will say that it, I think you alluded to this before, Mike, but, like, we're going to run a whole analysis of...because we did a ton of interviews, and we haven't actually done that, like, sort of data-driven thing of like, are there trends in the demographics somewhere that we're not getting? Because the pattern has not been there. Like, someone will talk to an 18-year-old, you know, at 1:00 p.m. who is just, like, "Why on earth would I ever want this?" And then I, like, you know, will talk to a 21-year-old who is like, "I love this."
\n\nAnd it's like, why? Like, this is the answer. The thing we're trying to get out now is, like, what is the difference between those two people? It's not a demographic thing that we can see from the outside, so what is it instead? But with consumer stuff like this, often, you don't necessarily...you don't need that in such great detail when you're starting. You just kind of, like, throw it out there and see who grabs it, and then you start to build sort of cohorts around that.
\n\nAnd that is kind of what these interviews have shown us is that there are people who will grab it, and that was part of what we were trying to validate. Are there people who Mike and Chris do not know personally who will, like, get this and be psyched about it immediately? And that is, you know, check unequivocally true. Like Chris said, there are people that we were, you know, that we had recruited on this user interviews platform [chuckles] who then just turned around and bought the product because they were so psyched about it. One of the guys I interviewed was like, "Can I invest in your company right now?" Like, during the interview, and I was like, "Maybe?" [laughs]
\n\nCHRIS: There was, like, another person who wanted to work for us immediately...
\n\nJORDYN: Yes, great.
\n\nCHRIS: Which was really interesting and kind of awesome.
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, they're like, "Are you hiring?" You're just like, okay. So, it's validating that there are people all over that spectrum. Like, where those trends lie, though, which is, I think, what you were asking, Lindsey, not as straightforward and in a fascinating way. So, we still have a little more, like, number crunching to do on that, and we may have an answer for you later.
\n\nLINDSEY: That's exciting. Exactly. I'm curious: what are the connecting dots between the folks who are really into it, and how might that impact how you approach the business?
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, it's hard. It's definitely going to be a niche to start. And so, we got to figure out kind of got to crack the code on how we find those people.
\n\nLINDSEY: And, Mike, I think you had also mentioned last time that, you know, you or both of you have a network kind of in the music industry, and you've been floating the idea past some people there. Have you been having more of those conversations over the last few weeks, too?
\n\nMIKE: We have, yeah. Well, so yeah, we've had a couple more just kind of straight-up pitch calls versus like, "Hey, there's this cool thing we're doing," and having those people be like, "Cool. Let's do a pilot." And so, they're ordering, you know, 500 or 1,000 units at a time, which is rad.
\n\nLINDSEY: Whoa.
\n\nMIKE: For the first...yeah.
\n\nLINDSEY: Okay, very cool.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. The first two or three of those should happen in January or maybe early February, but yeah, those are done and in production and arriving soon. So, that's really exciting with some cool bands. We won't say the names in case it doesn't [laughs] work out, but it does look like it's going to work out.
\n\nLINDSEY: And so, it's specific bands that are creating merch for their fans.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, yeah. So, we're working with one artist manager on a band that he manages, and then we're working with a record label. And they're going to try with a couple of smaller artists. And so, yeah, it's actually really good for us. One is going to be straight-up sales, most likely, and it's, like, selling these things. And the other ones will be given away as kind of promo items on tour artists, which is also a really interesting use case for us, too, that we're excited about and using them as a way to sort of get email addresses and, like, fans engaged and stuff, so...
\n\nAnd then yeah, then I had another conversation, and they want to talk about doing some pilots. So far, like, that side of things is going great. We're sort of 3 for 4 in terms of initial calls leading to pilots right off the bat, which is kind of unheard of from [laughs] my experience.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, I'd say so. No, a lot of very good signals.
\n\nMIKE: Really good signals. But then we were able to turn some of those into user interview conversations, actually, as well over the course of the last couple of weeks, which has been really helpful, like, talking to manager and label-type people about what they might want out of a software product that is associated with this because we're not just thinking about making physical products but sort of coupling that with an online toolset. And that part, we haven't gotten as far along as we did with the direct-to-consumer e-commerce, but it's been fascinating.
\n\nLINDSEY: So, what has been happening with the online shop? As you noted the last time we talked, it was just a baby less than a week-old Shopify site getting, you know, some first hits of people going around maybe putting things in their basket. I'm sure a lot has happened over the last few weeks. What kind of work, what kind of insights have you seen around the site?
\n\nCHRIS: We've been, I mean, we've been selling stuff at a slow but steady pace. It's been great because it's enough to, you know, because our product really straddles the line between physical and digital; there's a lot of physical aspects to this that we need to figure out and kind of the level of orders that we've been getting have been really...it's, like, the perfect number to think about fulfillment issues, things like what kind of package does this go in? How do we mail this out? Things along those lines, just very basic, practical questions that needed to be answered.
\n\nBut yeah, it's been great. We actually, I mean, we hit our goal for the amount of these that we wanted to get in people's hands before Christmas, which is pretty awesome. And we continue now with the lessons learned. I think our plan is to try and make a push for Valentine's Day because these seem like they would be a great Valentine's Day present: make a playlist; share it with your loved one; share it with a friend; share it with somebody you don't like at all. Who knows?
\n\nLINDSEY: [laughs]
\n\nCHRIS: But yeah, that's kind of our next sales push, we think.
\n\nLINDSEY: The hate playlist.
\n\nCHRIS: [inaudible 15:40] hate playlist.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, perfect. Real passive-aggressive.
\n\nCHRIS: Just Blue Monday, like, by New Order, like, 14 times.
\n\nLINDSEY: [laughs] Yeah, every song is just like a sub-tweet...
\n\nMIKE: [laughs]
\n\nLINDSEY: About something they've done and [inaudible 15:53] Have you updated the site? Like, how do you decide what gets updated on the site? [laughter] Everyone laughed.
\n\nMIKE: It was a little haphazard, I would say, there for a minute. But --
\n\nCHRIS: We got the site up very, very quickly. And from my perspective, I've been dealing a lot with the physical side of things, just getting great product photos up there, which is, like, something that thoughtbot has actually been super helpful with. You know, everybody on the team is starting to submit photos of their Goodz in the real world and using their Goodz, which is great.
\n\nAnd we continued to update the site with that but also making sure our text made sense, refining copy in response to things that people said during user interviews. The checkout process, the process of adding the URL that we point the Good to that, we did a bunch of experimentation there based on what people were saying during user interviews. So, it has been a little haphazard, but we have made a bunch of changes.
\n\nLINDSEY: Jordyn, has there been any experiment, like, structured experimentation around the site or how you're getting people to the site?
\n\nJORDYN: Mike actually did a little bit of ad funnel work that I don't think we've, like, even remotely scratched the surface of. So, I wish I could say that was conclusive, but I think we've found a little bit more...here are plenty of sales that are from people that nobody here knows.
\n\nMIKE: True.
\n\nJORDYN: So, people are finding out about this somehow [laughs]. But I think it's a little bit, like, word-of-mouth sort of chain of events is our sense so far. I wanted to say, though, about the site, we did get what Chris was saying about, like, this experiment was, in part, about fulfillment and figuring out how fulfillment would work and packaging, and not just messaging and not just closing the sale with consumers, but also, just, like, how do you fulfill these?
\n\nBut one of the really fun things we've managed to do in the last, since we talked last time, which I can't even believe...I feel like this wasn't even a gleam in our eyes for this project, but we managed to get out, like, stood up and out the door, and working in production in the last few weeks is a way for folks to actually assign the URL to their mixtape themselves. Previously, the plan had just been for Chris and Mike to do that, which is fine but a little bit unscalable, right?
\n\nCHRIS: That was a huge dream or, like, that was high on our wish list. And we didn't think we'd get to it. And it's been pretty amazing that we have, yeah.
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, so that was one thing that is an update to the site. So, then we had to do a little bit of, like, micro iterating, on, like, the messaging around that. Like, how do you communicate to people? This is, like, a little bit of an abstract challenge, right? Like, here's this object. It's going to point to a digital thing. How do you tell the physical object which digital thing it's pointing to [laughs]?
\n\nSo, a lot of our recent interviewing has been to sort of get inside the mind of the consumer about how they're thinking about that and how we can best communicate that to them. So that's been a lot of the, like, recent iteration is getting that mechanism stood up and then the messaging around it.
\n\nCHRIS: It's also really cool because it adds to the utility of the object itself in the sense that now our Goodz, when a user gets one, they can add a URL to their Good themselves, but they can also change that URL. So, it's much more malleable.
\n\nJORDYN: Which is something that in one of our early user interviews was, like, a hot request [laughs], and we were like, "Someday, someday." And it's, you know, I should actually go back to her and be like, "Someday is today."
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nMIKE: Well, yeah, and just as Chris was saying, it just makes it so much easier to ship these out without having to manually load them, and you could sell them, and yeah, retail outlets, like, it just opens up a lot of opportunities for us for them.
\n\nLINDSEY: And Mike mentioned that some of the, like, kind of future looking aspirations for the solution are, you know, how might you figure out the B2B, like, SaaS aspect of it? Jordyn, is that something that's been explored at all at this point, or is it early?
\n\nJORDYN: That experiment I just described is actually sort of the link between the two projects. It sort of proves the concept and proves the value in some ways, and it has given us a little bit more visibility into sort of how we're going to execute some of this technical stuff. Like, how easy, how difficult is it going to be? These little experiments all build your confidence around your ability to do those things and what it's going to look like. And so, this experiment absolutely feeds into that question.
\n\nBut I would say it was really this week where we got to have a really fun brainstorming sort of blue sky conversation about that that I don't think would have been nearly as both creative and blue sky or rooted in reality as it was if we hadn't done these experiments and hadn't talked to so many...we had so much work...we could participate in a conversation like that so much more confidently and creatively because all of us had a lot more shared context.
\n\nSo, we really got to dream big, like, what is a SaaS platform built around these physical objects? And I don't want to, you know, I'm not going to give it away at this moment because we had a lot of, like, really cool ideas. It's one part talking to the B2B customer, which, you know, you mentioned earlier, getting what their pain points are, and what they're looking for, what they need, but then also dreaming big about now we understand the technology a little bit more and how it feels to use it. What does that unlock in our brains?
\n\nThe analogy I used in that conversation and that I use all the time is like, the users of Twitter invented hashtags, right? Twitter did not invent hashtags. And so, hey, everybody out there, newsflash: users invented hashtags, not Twitter or something else, if you didn't realize that Twitter was where those things kind of emerged. But there was just a user behavior that was happening in the wild, and Twitter was just very good at making that easier for them, looking at that and being like, "Oh, hey, is this a thing you all want to do? Here, we'll make that even more useful for you." And it was part of Twitter's early success that they were able to do that.
\n\nAnd so, that was the kind of thinking we were trying to employ here is, like, now that we have these objects and we understand a little bit more how it feels to use them, you get these second order effects. What does that then make us think of? What is then possible to us that we wouldn't have been able to dream of previously because we didn't quite get it? So, that was really happening this week.
\n\nLINDSEY: So, as the incubator time wraps up, what are the kind of final activities or deliverables, one, that Goodz wants and you know that they're going to get? What are the parting gifts as we send you out into the next phase?
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, well, loads of stuff. I mean, we're getting all that code that [SP] Guillermo and the guys worked on to let people set their own playlist settings. And we've got that up in a GitHub repository now. And we've got a bunch of great design work that's all being handed over, like Chris was saying, product shots that a bunch of the team members were taking, synthesizing all the user interviews. We're actually sort of making some kind of final reports on those, so it's kind of more usable, actionable data for us. The whole website, you know, that didn't exist before. And that will sort of continue to grow as the entire website for Goodz moving forward. I don't know. That's a lot. What else was there, Chris?
\n\nCHRIS: As a result of all that, I mean, one of the things I'm most excited about is now we have a small user base who actually has the physical products that, hopefully, we can get them to answer questions. That's huge for what's coming next. Starting the path towards the SaaS platform, too, it's really helped narrow our scope and think about, you know, how to make that successful or if it will be successful.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, that sounded like a big discussion this week that I know has been on your minds from the beginning. Wait, the last time, also, you said you were starting to get emails, too. Have you emailed anyone yet, or are you still holding on to them?
\n\nMIKE: Oh. No, I still haven't sent a newsletter out [laughs], actually, but we have Mailchimp set up. Yeah, no, we've got a good kind of core of our, yeah, early folks on there. We'll start getting a newsletter out with some sort of regularity. We're building up the socials very slowly just focusing on Instagram mostly right now and trying to get back into that game.
\n\nIt's been a long time since I've had to do kind of social marketing stuff. And so, it's a lot of work, as it turns out, but we'll get all that cooking. I think this was just such a sprint, working with the thoughtbot folks and trying to get all this stuff done. Before the end of the year, now we can sort of take a breath and start engaging folks in the new year.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. Well, so, do you know what you want to do next or what the next phase looks like? Are you going to do fundraising?
\n\nMIKE: We're certainly going to continue to have some fundraising conversations. We've had some conversations emerge over the last, you know, since we've been in thoughtbot, again, not the greatest time of year to try to be raising a round. But we're also not, like, desperately, urgently needing to do that right this second. I think, you know, part of it is the fundraising landscape, you know, doesn't look amazing. And we're still sort of building out a lot of traction, and sort of every week, there's some new, exciting thing, or we've got some new, big artists who wants to do something.
\n\nSo, I think, in some ways, to the extent that we can bootstrap for a little while, I think we will, yeah. So, we will focus on...I'd like to get back to focusing on, like, B2B sales. I'd like to hit the ground in January and just start talking to a bunch of music industry folks.
\n\nAnd thinking ahead a little bit, sort of Q1 and Q2, like, what are the big tentpole events? You know, you got South by Southwest coming up in March. You got Record Store Day in April, or whenever it is. But, you know, there's, like, a bunch of those sorts of things that it's like, oh, let's not let those things suddenly be tomorrow. Like, right now, they're all still two or three/four months out. Like, let's make sure we're queued up for those things and see what happens.
\n\nAnd Jordyn has been giving really good advice on the fundraising side where it's just like, just keep getting cool stuff like that and just do almost like little drip campaigns with funders who aren't maybe giving you the time of day or think it's too early, and just kind of keep going back to them. Like, the best excuse to go back to funders is like, "Hey, we just closed this new thing. We just launched this new thing. We just got this thing working. Hey, we're launching with this major band," Like, enough of those happen, and I think the fundraising will happen more organically. It's a strategy.
\n\nCHRIS: I think we're really lucky in the fact that, you know, now, at this point, we're not talking about vapourware, you know, like, these are actual things that actually exist that, like, anybody could go onto our site right now and buy, which is awesome. And because of that, the product's going to continue to evolve, and, hopefully, our sales record will continue to evolve, too.
\n\nLINDSEY: Amazing. Well, that feels like a good place to wrap up, maybe. Are you going to hang around in our incubator Slack, the thoughtbot incubator Slack for all our past founders?
\n\nMIKE: Yes. Emphatically, yes.
\n\nLINDSEY: Okay. We're holding you to it then [laughs].
\n\nCHRIS: I'm excited about that. We met with the other founders yesterday for the first time, and it was a really great and interesting conversation. It was cool seeing how diverse all these projects are and how folks are working on things that we had no idea about and how we're working on stuff that they have no idea about, and it was really great. It felt like a good cross-pollination.
\n\nMIKE: Agreed.
\n\nLINDSEY: That's awesome to hear. Jordyn, any final thoughts?
\n\nJORDYN: [inaudible 26:58] out there listening and watching and want to join this community of founders [laughs], don't you want to have office hours with Chris and Mike?
\n\nLINDSEY: All right, thoughtbot.com/incubator. You can apply for session 1 of the 2024 incubator program. And yeah, you two, if you have more recommendations, referrals, definitely send them our way. Chris, Mike, Jordyn, thank you so much once again for joining and catching us up on all the exciting developments for Goodz.
\n\nMIKE: Thank you.
\n\nLINDSEY: A lot of really cool milestones.
\n\nJORDYN: I got to say, so much good stuff. And like, you know, just wrapping it all up almost diminishes the impact of any single one of those things that we just talked about, but it's, like, pretty amazing. People out there, apply to the incubator but also go buy yourself a Goodz mixtape. It's cool with playlists on it.
\n\nMIKE: It's a good point.
\n\nJORDYN: Give it to your BFF. Come on.
\n\nLINDSEY: Getthegoodz.com.
\n\nMIKE: Getthegoodz.com. Awesome.
\n\nLINDSEY: All right. Thanks, Chris and Mike.
\n\nAD:
\n\nDid you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.
\n\nMore info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.
Special Guests: Chris Cerrito, Jordyn Bonds, and Mike Rosenthal.
","summary":"Lindsey Christensen and Jordyn Bonds catch up with the co-founders of Goodz, Chris Cerrito and Mike Rosenthal, where they share insights from their journey during the Incubator program, including the usefulness of the application process in aligning their vision and the challenges and benefits of user interviews and the importance of not overreacting to single user feedback and finding a balance in responding to diverse opinions. They reveal the varied reactions of users to Goodz's product, highlighting the different market segments interested in it.\r\n\r\nAs the Incubator program nears its end for Goodz, Chris and Mike reflect on their achievements and future plans. They've made significant progress, such as setting up an e-commerce site and conducting successful user interviews. The co-founders discuss their excitement about the potential of their product and the validation they received from users. Mike mentions the importance of focusing on B2B sales and the possibility of upcoming events like South by Southwest and Record Store Day. ","date_published":"2024-01-23T00:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/80146747-4e95-4d15-9c04-d76f95b4e676.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":29741529,"duration_in_seconds":1715}]},{"id":"eb21085f-2917-4270-bc0e-9415413fc8d0","title":"508: Drumming Up Connections: Jessica Wallace on Networking in Real-Time","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/508","content_text":"In this episode, host Victoria Guido talks with Jessica Wallace, the CEO of Flok22, an innovative app designed to enhance real-time social networking. Victoria delves into Jessica's unique journey from her roots as a hairdresser to becoming a tech entrepreneur. They explore how Jessica's personal experiences and challenges, including being a military wife and navigating life post-divorce with three children, fueled her drive to create Flok22. Jessica's desire to connect people in real-time, especially in the post-COVID era, led to the birth of this groundbreaking app.\n\nVictoria and Jessica discuss their mutual passion for music, revealing how their hobbies provide a creative outlet from the demanding world of startups. Jessica shares her aspirations to return to playing the drums, a skill inspired by her family's musical background, and her journey in learning the instrument during the pandemic.\n\nOn technology and entrepreneurship, Jessica dives into the challenges and triumphs of developing and marketing Flok22. She reflects on the importance of networking, particularly in the startup community, and how her app addresses the inefficiencies and awkwardness often encountered at networking events. Victoria and Jessica discuss the evolution of Flok22, emphasizing its focus on enhancing in-person connections and its pivot towards a more event-centric approach, as well as the future of networking, the potential of Flok22, and their shared enthusiasm for making meaningful connections, both professionally and musically.\n\n\nFlok22\nFollow Flok22 on Facebook, Linkedin, or Instagram.\nFollow Jessica Wallace on LinkedIn.\nFollow thoughtbot on X or LinkedIn.\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Jessica Wallace, CEO of Flok22, the app that helps you make friends and grow your network in real-time situations. Jessica, thank you for joining us.\n\nJESSICA: Thank you for having me. \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Well, just to get us started and warm up here, Jessica, is there any new skill or any skill you've come back to to practice more recently to kind of take your mind off of all the founder stuff that's happening? \n\nJESSICA: Yeah. It's been a busy past two months of events and things like that. So, I've kind of been taking a little bit of downtime. I am hoping to start practicing the drums. I play those, and I haven't been doing that in a while. They've been kind of staring me down, so...\n\nVICTORIA: So, were you a drummer before? Were you in a band, or?\n\nJESSICA: No, never was in a band. Actually, my dad and my uncle were drummers in a band. And as a kid, I would kind of pick up the drumsticks. And I remember my uncle kind of saying like, \"Hey, is that Jessica down there?\" Because I would sound like I was playing [laughs] something. Yeah, it took me a while to get into it. But during COVID, I picked it up and started practicing. \n\nVICTORIA: I love that. So, do you have a whole drum set at home, or do you have one of those, like, electric?\n\nJESSICA: I have both. I have the electric one, which I think I'm going to kind of get out and mess with. But I have an actual full drum set. It's like a TAMA light blue little set. \n\nVICTORIA: That's so fun. I like playing the drums, but I never made the leap to actually own my own drum set. So, whenever my friends have it, though, I can play, like, maybe one or two beats on [laughs] it. Nothing that impressive, but yeah, it's a lot of fun.\n\nJESSICA: Do you play any other instruments?\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I've always...I played piano when I was younger, and then clarinet and bass guitar through, like, middle school and high school. I did have a band in college. We played two shows, and they were both at my house, which was a lot of fun. \n\nJESSICA: [laughs]\n\nVICTORIA: I had kind of stopped playing music, and then when COVID happened, it was like, well [laughs], I guess I need to find another hobby again. So, I picked up piano again. And now I've been playing keyboard and trying to sing at the same time, which has been entertaining for everyone in my household, so...[laughs]\n\nJESSICA: Very cool. Too bad we didn't, like, catch up during COVID time. We could have started a band. \n\nVICTORIA: Yes. Yeah. I'm trying to think of a way to get more disciplined about practicing, actually, because that's...I know people who practice for, like, three hours a day every day. And I'm just like, how do you make yourself sit there for that long [laughs]?\n\nJESSICA: That's definitely been the challenge with me. And then, of course, being in a startup, and then, you know, that kind of got put on the backburner, but I hope to pick it up.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, right? So, we met at San Diego Startup Week, which was a fantastic event here in San Diego; a different location every night and, different speakers, and all of these really interesting people to meet. So, why don't you tell me a little bit about what brought you to San Diego Startup Week? \n\nJESSICA: Well, first things first is being a startup here in San Diego, so that made me go. And I knew it's very important, the more I'm realizing, to build your network and connect with people, and especially just within the community, getting yourself out there to be known, talking to other companies, even just showing your support to other startups. It's such an important thing to do.\n\nVICTORIA: And your app, Flok22, specifically, solves some problems people might have with going to an event like that and trying to make friends and network with people. So, can you tell me a little bit more about the initial problem you had when you just came up with the idea for the app?\n\nJESSICA: So, the initial problem was kind of around COVID time when everything opened back up. And there was this plethora of meetup apps that everybody was on trying to make these connections. And I would start to go out with friends, and as I'm looking around, it was that weird, awkward time where you couldn't talk to anybody you didn't come with. \n\nAnd I would literally see people, including my friends, swiping on matching apps while they were sitting at the table, but nobody was talking to one another. And that's when I realized we needed something that was more venue-based, where it was like, hey, I'm here. I'm out. Let me see who's available to connect. And that's where the concept came about. \n\nAnd then, during a lot of these networking events, I started to realize the same thing. It was people trying to network, and we're still doing the old-school name tags and signing our name on a paper. And it would just be so much more easier to have everybody on that one platform to connect with a little bit more effective and efficiently.\n\nVICTORIA: And so, how long has it been since you had this idea and you've been in this journey with Flok22?\n\nJESSICA: Well, it's been a little over two years. Right around COVID is when I got the idea. I was a hairdresser for, like, 20-plus years and wasn't working and at home with my three kids. And the idea just was kind of pricking at me. And it took me a while to try and figure out, you know, how can I do this? How can I, with no funds, you know, newly divorced, three kids, how am I going to start an app? And I just kept pushing on trying to connect with the right people and build a product.\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. What inspired you? Like, you had this idea for an app. And you're like, you know what? I'm going to make it work. Like, what kept you going? What made you think this is a thing I can put my time and energy into and be successful?\n\nJESSICA: You know, there's a lot of factors. I feel like it's just one of those things where you kind of just...you know how you just get that instinct and idea, and you're like, I just can't let it go? And I remember hitting a low point because I had tried to call different development teams. I had tried to do it on my own. And I felt like I wasn't getting anywhere. \n\nAnd I was literally walking on a treadmill, and a friend gave me this YouTube thing to listen to, and it was Les Brown. And he was talking about if you were on your deathbed, you know, these ideas and these dreams, they're just staring you with angry eyes because they came to you for life. And it, like, hit me, like, very intensely to where I was like, I have to do this. I can't just look back in my life and be like, I had this idea. I know somebody's going to do it because everybody would be like, \"This is a great idea.\" So, it's just a matter of you just got to keep going. \n\nVICTORIA: Well, I'm glad that you're working on this because I can totally relate to that experience of, you know, for me, I came from Washington, D.C., and moved to San Diego. When I was in D.C., I had spent years in the meetup community and organizing meetups. And so, it got to the point where anytime I went to a meetup, I would know at least one person there. \n\nAnd now coming to San Diego, like, starting it all over again, was very daunting. And, like, walking into...what was it? San Diego tech event where there's, like, 100 people in this beautiful Balboa Park location and just being so nervous [laughs]. I'm like, who do I talk to? Like, how do I get started? And you immediately think I should just leave and go home [laughs]. But let me get a glass of Chardonnay and go over to the craft makers table and make some art and then I'll, like, feel a little bit better. \n\nSo yeah, I'm curious, like, so you had this great idea. Like, you knew you wanted to put your effort into it. As you started going through the process of figuring out how to get started or how to find that market fit, was there anything that surprised you in your early stages that made you pivot into a new direction? \n\nJESSICA: Well, I would say just, like, hearing your story, so many of us have been in that boat. I used to be a military wife, so I was always picking up and moving. And the older we get, it's hard to build and start up your network again. And I see a lot of people posting on Facebook or, you know, Instagram, and they're, like, putting their profile out there trying to make friends. So, there's definitely a need for it. \n\nOriginally, I wanted it more for the social aspect, which was coffee shops, bars, restaurants, being able to just check in and see who's there that is open to connect. One thing we did kind of start to realize is a lot of people, even though they want to make those connections, people are still nervous to claim that they're trying to, like, make a friend. So, the biggest thing that we learned in the product-market fit was people were more inclined to use it for networking. They felt a little bit more secure and safer that way. So, I would say that would be a thing that we kind of picked up on.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that makes sense. Because when I'm going to networking, like, of course, I would love to find leads for people who need consulting work from thoughtbot or software development or platform engineering. But if you go in with that intention, it's disingenuous, and it's not very effective. Whereas if you go into a networking event with the intention to make friends and just to learn about people and to find common interest, it's, like, indirectly aiming at your target is the best way to actually get there [laughs]. So, it makes sense. And so, you pivoted into more events and networking. Has there been anything that you've found about that experience or that group of people that's surprised you, or?\n\nJESSICA: I do feel like the social side will pick up on it. I just think it's going to take a little bit more time. But with the networking, I wasn't really doing any of that until I got into this startup. So, I didn't even see the need for it until I got in there. And then here I am, you know, going to a table, trying to find my name tag, and everything's still very much old school when it comes to that. And so, that was what surprised me is just was, like, this would be perfect. Everybody's trying to exchange their LinkedIns. Everybody is trying to find the right person. \n\nAnd sometimes you get stuck in a conversation with somebody for 20 minutes, and it's some sales guy from who knows where, and you're just like, uh, I'm not really looking for that. You know what I mean? Great to connect, but got to go. So, it's so much better to just find the right people that you're looking for and network more efficiently. \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I don't know if this is that exact experience, but what I've kind of heard from other founders is sometimes you go to a networking event, and maybe you're looking for, like, mentors or people to help you or your own [inaudible 10:09]. And then there's more people trying to sell things to you [laughs] than there are, like, those actual people you're looking for who would help you. So, that's really interesting. So, now you've started to kind of really get involved in the networking. And I'm curious: how many events have you gone to so far this year? Do you have a rough estimate? \n\nJESSICA: I'm, like, trying to think. It's, like, such a blur because I really have been going to so many. And also, I've been a part of the SDAC E-track, which is the Angel Conference, San Diego Angel Conference that's coming up. So, we're hoping to get accepted in that. I'm going to say, at least this month, probably 12, I would suspect.\n\nVICTORIA: Wait, 12 this month? \n\nJESSICA: I think so, yeah. And some of them have been little ones. Like, I've done some happy hour events. There's these really cool, like, social happy hour events I've been trying to kind of partner up with. So, definitely some smaller ones, and then some bigger ones, and then including my E-track. So, that's kind of the calculation I have.\n\nVICTORIA: Wow, I mean, there's only been 15 days so far this month, so 13 events that's quite a lot [laughs]. I hope you do get some time to rest and play the drums later this month. But that's really exciting. So, I'm curious: as a founder, obviously, you have an event space networking app. But have you found other benefits from growing your network as an early-stage founder?\n\nJESSICA: Definitely. The biggest impact is connecting with these people. And whether you read that book, \"Rich Dad, Poor Dad,\" they say, you know, \"Poor people look for work, and rich people build networks.\" And it's true because I'm noticing that for myself. You get around these people, and most of the time, they really do want to help, or you just need to have the ask, you know, ask what you're looking for. And they're more than willing to set you up with other people to get partnerships. \n\nI ended up meeting somebody at the MIC Conference, which was in Vegas last month. And they connected me with somebody who now we are going to be partnering with them to have our app be used at their conference. So, it's as simple as that, just once you're in front of them and you get that more personal touch, and then they kind of refer you to other people. \n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that's great. And how does your app compare to the existing apps that are out there for networking at events or for managing attendees at events? \n\nJESSICA: Well, currently, there's not anything that's doing it in real-time. There is some conference events they have, like Cvent, Whova app. Personally, to me, it was just there's so much going on. You have the event, you know, vendors. You have the schedule. You have so much going on. And for us, our main thing is just connecting you to the right person. So, it's a more simplistic version of just being able to simply check in, see the profiles of the people that are there, see what it is that you're looking for, and know that you want to connect with them. \n\nAlso, the other feature that we have is allowing you to see anybody that you may have missed when you leave. So, you can kind of easily filter through those profiles and decide who to reach out to. I mean, similar to maybe, like, a meetup, but it's more just on demand. There quite hasn't been anything that's doing it right instantaneously. \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, and I can agree. I've used some of those apps before. And what I've noticed there's just not a ton of activity or user activity on the day of. And I'm curious to see...I really want to try out Flok, too. I know I'm like [laughs], I haven't had a chance to actually get in there yet, but it is on my to-do list. \n\nSo, I'm curious, you know, as someone who didn't have a background in technology or building applications, like, how did you go about getting up to speed and finding the people you needed to help you actually build the app?\n\nJESSICA: Yeah, I mean, being a hairstylist, I was not tech at all. So, it's pretty interesting that here I am, you know, in this app development world. The main thing was just getting out there. I knew I had already been on so many apps just, whether it was some of the dating apps, meetup apps, so I knew how they operated and what I was looking for as a customer that I wanted to fix. \n\nMost of the time, it was heavily with all these pictures, and prompts, and things like that, and I would get bored of setting it up. It would take me, like, you know, 30-plus minutes. Not to mention, I call it, like, adding people to your cart. It's just very impersonal. You got so many people just piling people to their cart. You might talk to them for a little bit, then stop. And I think people are just kind of getting over it. It's time-consuming. It's a lot of time and planning, and sometimes you plan something and then...even with the girls meeting a friend, it's like they plan something for Thursday, and somebody cancels, and then you're SOL, you know?\n\nVICTORIA: Oh yeah. So, you had experience with using different apps for, like, networking or meeting people and making friends, and you saw that there was this gap. And then, how did you go to actually building the app? And were there any lessons that you learned in that process?\n\nJESSICA: That was my experience and why I was doing that. The main thing I did after that was I started hitting up events to find and recruit. That was how I started finding...I met my co-founder through a mutual friend. She's been wonderful. She's, like, complete opposite of me. She's, like, the business-organized one. Like, hey, we need an LLC. We need this. We need that. I'm more just the idea and brains and kind of behind the scenes. Then I started going to some tech events, met our UI UX designer, Laura, who's been fantastic. \n\nSo, that would be my advice to people. If you're looking to build and you're trying to find the right people, of course, LinkedIn could be a good spot. Y Combinator could be a good spot. For me, I think going out there and actually making the personal connections and meeting the people and ask them and find what you're looking for.\n\nVICTORIA: And you could now even use Flok22 to find your early founder team [laughs].\n\nJESSICA: Exactly. See? \n\nVICTORIA: That's awesome. \n\nMID-ROLL AD:\n\nAre your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features?\n\nWe know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it’s easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn’t looking.\n\nBy delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer.\n\nSave time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops.\n\nVICTORIA: So, you went out, and you just met people, and you had this compelling vision of what you wanted to build and were able to recruit them onto your team. Was there anything...you know, you've been at this for two years now. Through the development process, was there anything you learned about what to do or what not to do in how you engage with your designers and developers?\n\nJESSICA: You know, it's like, we dove out there, like, headfirst. And then there was a period of time where we needed to pause and re-calibrate, and that was due to the fact that you have to be very diligent in looking for development if you're outsourcing. If you know a CTO or you have somebody in-house that, you know, you're working with, you may not have the problems that we ran into. But with outsourcing, there's still very much a gray area. And we ended up getting a product that was not really functional and had a lot of issues, which caused a huge setback for us. It was a great, you know, lesson learned if that. But you have to be really particular on who you're finding.\n\nI would suggest heavily on finding somebody that is a referral from somebody that you know, as a matter of fact, that they use. Because nowadays, there's times that they can almost, like, fake what they have. I mean, they might have references. They'll put stuff up on their website showcasing products that they did, and those aren't even products that they did. So, we ran into a huge deal with that. But it made us take a step back. We re-honed in on our user persona, had our UI UX designer redesign everything, and came back out here again.\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, because people will let you pay them to build anything [laughs].\n\nJESSICA: Oh yeah.\n\nVICTORIA: But it may not be exactly what you wanted. And what you said, going with someone who is a referral, going with someone who, I think, clearly demonstrates that they need to understand the underlying issue, as opposed to just being willing to take whatever requirements you have and build it. That's a big differentiator for companies. \n\nAnd it can be frustrating because I think, you know, for thoughtbot, sometimes people come to us, and they're like, \"We already have the designs. We already know what we want. You just build it for us.\" And we [inaudible 19:21], like, coach them around that. Like, are you sure? Like, let's look at your market validation, and let's look at your product fit. And, you know, let's go back and make sure that we're all aligned and that you're actually getting value out of something, and showing you the results on a regular basis, as opposed to it'll be done in three months, and you just wait until then. Sometimes, that can be $150,000 later, and, at the end, you're not actually getting a product that you really wanted.\n\nJESSICA: Exactly. And like I said, there's still a big, gray area in that where, you know, you can be given a product, and it's not even barely working, or it looks like garbage. And you're kind of stuck because trying to go after these people to get your money back it's most likely not going to happen. And then you just lost out on all that money you put into that product. So, it can be very frustrating for people.\n\nI hope to eventually kind of shed light on that and maybe help people along the way, so they don't fall trap to those type of kind of scammers that are out there for development. And I'm sure you, being CTO, you've seen a lot of that [chuckles]. \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that's something we work really hard to kind of coach clients around and figure out to make sure because we don't want to end in that situation where our founder feels like we built something for them that doesn't work or doesn't look great, or what they're happy with [chuckles]. So yeah, I think it's very common. It happens to a lot of people. But I'm happy that you didn't get discouraged and you said, you know what? We can go for round two. Let's take what we learned and put it into the next version of the app. \n\nAnd one of my favorite phrases from doing this podcast that I've heard is, \"If the first product you build if you're proud of it, you didn't do it fast enough\" [laughs]. So, like, usually, the first thing you build is not pretty, but you had to push through and build something. And that's the first application you've ever built. So, how did you feel about the second time going around? What did you do differently to be happier with and prouder of the product version that you put out there?\n\nJESSICA: Yeah, I like that phrase, too, and sometimes I'm the same. It's kind of like, you know, fail fast and get out there. But the second build was definitely so much more smoother and better. But, actually, we are in transition to a newer, bigger development team because there's still some things that we're just not completely set on. And I do think that moving along to this next development team, there's a more better fit. \n\nAnd then, we also received a grant from AWS to build a better back-end infrastructure, so when we do scale up, and there is more people on there, that it can withhold that capacity. So, I'm definitely happy with it right now. And I know that getting it out there—and you know this, too—is just getting it out there with all the users, you know, there may be some different feedback coming in and out. We plan on, you know, making any changes necessary if need be, and just kind of always making it a little better each time.\n\nVICTORIA: Is that the AWS Activate program?\n\nJESSICA: It's not the Activate, but it's just we're actually working with a company, and it was AWS. They had filled everything out for us, you know, they want to help startups getting out into the app world because, again, if we're making money, they're making money, too, with it being on their servers. So, it's kind of a win-win. And we can store all of that data and be able to scale up properly.\n\nVICTORIA: Absolutely, yeah. And so, for those who don't know, the AWS Activate program, you can apply for up to $100,000 in free credits, and other cloud providers have similar programs where you can get free money [chuckles]. But, no, that's really cool that you're a part of that. So, what challenges do you see on the horizon for Flok22?\n\nJESSICA: Of course, I hope there's going to be none, but we know in this entrepreneurial world, it's always there. I think, you know, the hard part are always going to be kind of those situations where maybe people aren't using the app properly or things of that sort happening. Other app companies have dealt with that. It's like, you could be out somewhere, and a situation happens. \n\nSo, that's kind of the only thing that I would be worried about is just ensuring the safety of all of our users, making sure that everybody is understanding. And I guess when that time comes and if there are things that, you know, come at you, it's just a matter of handling it. So, I hope it's not anything too heavy, but I guess we'll see.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Well, I appreciate you having that concern early on. Because I do feel like sometimes people create apps for networking and collaboration without thinking about the safety of their users. And it's more common from founders who have never been in a situation where they're unsafe [laughs]. So, like, maybe from your unique perspective, you, like, know that that is an issue that you might need to solve or that will come up, and having a plan for it makes sense.\n\nJESSICA: We definitely have a plan for it. I mean, a lot of people don't realize with these apps that are out there, there's actually been a pretty high increase in, like, sex trafficking and different things. And most people don't know that because they're not the ones going in there and doing the market research. \n\nSo, our main thing is getting people out there to meet in public places, which is much safer. You're not, you know, getting lured and unsure if that's even the person who that they say they are, or you're going to someone's house or on a hike. It just makes it for a much safer environment. And then we're working on some other added features where, you know, you can kind of validate the people just to ensure that.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that makes sense. And what is the wind in your sails? What keeps you going and keeps you excited about working on this?\n\nJESSICA: It's my passion. It's kind of like now; this has been my baby for a couple of years. So, of course, my family is always number one. I have three kids, a rat, two dogs, and a lizard. I adore my family, but I just have a passion for this. And I know that it's just a matter of time before this becomes a thing. And so, I just push myself on the daily trying to figure out the solutions and just keep moving forward with it. \n\nVICTORIA: And what does success look like in six months, or even beyond that, in five years?\n\nJESSICA: I think, for us, it will just be getting that heavy adoption of users, getting known out here in San Diego or in other parts. We plan on trying to hit more of the major cities where you got a lot of newcomers coming in and traveling, whether that's Chicago, New York, Miami, Vegas. As we get that adoption, just growing as a company and see where it goes from there.\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. Yeah, I look forward to when I can go to a conference and just identify who are all the rock climbers in the room, and I can go bug and talk about [laughs], like, climbing with. I love that. \n\nJESSICA: And, two, going to these conferences, also, not only your...you get to connect with the people that are there, but it's the people in the surrounding city, too. It's like a lot of people leave the conference, and they want to go to a bar or a coffee shop. And the fact that you have the option or opportunity to connect with the people who are there as well is a win-win.\n\nVICTORIA: I love that, yeah. And do you have any questions for me about thoughtbot, or the podcast, or anything like that?\n\nJESSICA: For me, you being, like, a CTO, I know you've maybe...have you seen apps like this become successful? I would love your take on kind of getting out there in the market for something like this because we are at that stage where we're trying to hit the market pretty heavily. We're hitting college campuses, you know, bigger conferences, trying to get that adoption in small clusters for it to be, you know, fun and usable for users. But I would love your take on that. \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, and, actually, I'm a managing director. Our CTO is Joe Ferris, who's currently my acting dev director for my team. But from my experience, you know, there might be a lot of competing apps who try to aim for similar things. But if you're very closely understanding your users and their needs and focusing on solving their problems, then you will find your niche, and you'll be able to be successful and grow that from there. So, if you have a strong vision for what the problem is and you're willing to actually listen to your users and pivot based off of that, that will set you up to be successful. \n\nYeah, and I've talked about this with other friends who are really into networking and meeting up with people. And there continues to be this gap of, like, how people communicate and how we actually connect. So, I think you're on the right track [chuckles], and you're doing a lot of great things. \n\nAnd I think the only other advice I would say is what you've already kind of pointed out is to make sure you're not burning out early on and that you're taking that time and space to be with your family and to do your hobbies, and having a strong rest ethic as you do a work ethic and making sure you're still a whole person. And you'll make better decisions if you're giving your brain a little bit of downtime.\n\nJESSICA: Definitely. I so agree with you. That's very important to have that balance. And we just hope that we can fill that gap when it comes to the networking. So, I hope that everyone can give it a try and see what they think.\n\nVICTORIA: I love that, yeah. Is there anything else that you would like to promote?\n\nJESSICA: I mean, honestly, this is not so much about me. I'm really passionate about this app and networking and connecting people together and getting it, so it's just more easy for everybody to connect out in person without wasting that time and energy. Just be out doing you and meet the right people. That's what Flok22 is all about.\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And we'll have to get together and play some music. I'll tell you the two songs I have memorized on piano right now are Kiss from a Rose by Seal and Someone Like You by Adele, so...[laughs] \n\nJESSICA: Oooh.\n\nVICTORIA: But we do have a bit of a girls' band going in San Diego, so we'll connect on that, too [laughs].\n\nJESSICA: Yeah, we'll have to link up. Add some drums to your...\n\nVICTORIA: We don't have a drummer, so that's perfect, yeah [laughs]. \n\nJESSICA: See? It's networking at its best [laughs].\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, yeah. I love it. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate hearing your story. \n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.\n\nAD:\n\nDid you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.\n\nMore info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.Sponsored By:thoughtbot: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? \r\n\r\nWe know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it’s easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn’t looking.\r\n\r\nBy delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer.\r\n\r\nSave time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops","content_html":"In this episode, host Victoria Guido talks with Jessica Wallace, the CEO of Flok22, an innovative app designed to enhance real-time social networking. Victoria delves into Jessica's unique journey from her roots as a hairdresser to becoming a tech entrepreneur. They explore how Jessica's personal experiences and challenges, including being a military wife and navigating life post-divorce with three children, fueled her drive to create Flok22. Jessica's desire to connect people in real-time, especially in the post-COVID era, led to the birth of this groundbreaking app.
\n\nVictoria and Jessica discuss their mutual passion for music, revealing how their hobbies provide a creative outlet from the demanding world of startups. Jessica shares her aspirations to return to playing the drums, a skill inspired by her family's musical background, and her journey in learning the instrument during the pandemic.
\n\nOn technology and entrepreneurship, Jessica dives into the challenges and triumphs of developing and marketing Flok22. She reflects on the importance of networking, particularly in the startup community, and how her app addresses the inefficiencies and awkwardness often encountered at networking events. Victoria and Jessica discuss the evolution of Flok22, emphasizing its focus on enhancing in-person connections and its pivot towards a more event-centric approach, as well as the future of networking, the potential of Flok22, and their shared enthusiasm for making meaningful connections, both professionally and musically.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Jessica Wallace, CEO of Flok22, the app that helps you make friends and grow your network in real-time situations. Jessica, thank you for joining us.
\n\nJESSICA: Thank you for having me.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Well, just to get us started and warm up here, Jessica, is there any new skill or any skill you've come back to to practice more recently to kind of take your mind off of all the founder stuff that's happening?
\n\nJESSICA: Yeah. It's been a busy past two months of events and things like that. So, I've kind of been taking a little bit of downtime. I am hoping to start practicing the drums. I play those, and I haven't been doing that in a while. They've been kind of staring me down, so...
\n\nVICTORIA: So, were you a drummer before? Were you in a band, or?
\n\nJESSICA: No, never was in a band. Actually, my dad and my uncle were drummers in a band. And as a kid, I would kind of pick up the drumsticks. And I remember my uncle kind of saying like, "Hey, is that Jessica down there?" Because I would sound like I was playing [laughs] something. Yeah, it took me a while to get into it. But during COVID, I picked it up and started practicing.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. So, do you have a whole drum set at home, or do you have one of those, like, electric?
\n\nJESSICA: I have both. I have the electric one, which I think I'm going to kind of get out and mess with. But I have an actual full drum set. It's like a TAMA light blue little set.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's so fun. I like playing the drums, but I never made the leap to actually own my own drum set. So, whenever my friends have it, though, I can play, like, maybe one or two beats on [laughs] it. Nothing that impressive, but yeah, it's a lot of fun.
\n\nJESSICA: Do you play any other instruments?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I've always...I played piano when I was younger, and then clarinet and bass guitar through, like, middle school and high school. I did have a band in college. We played two shows, and they were both at my house, which was a lot of fun.
\n\nJESSICA: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: I had kind of stopped playing music, and then when COVID happened, it was like, well [laughs], I guess I need to find another hobby again. So, I picked up piano again. And now I've been playing keyboard and trying to sing at the same time, which has been entertaining for everyone in my household, so...[laughs]
\n\nJESSICA: Very cool. Too bad we didn't, like, catch up during COVID time. We could have started a band.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes. Yeah. I'm trying to think of a way to get more disciplined about practicing, actually, because that's...I know people who practice for, like, three hours a day every day. And I'm just like, how do you make yourself sit there for that long [laughs]?
\n\nJESSICA: That's definitely been the challenge with me. And then, of course, being in a startup, and then, you know, that kind of got put on the backburner, but I hope to pick it up.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, right? So, we met at San Diego Startup Week, which was a fantastic event here in San Diego; a different location every night and, different speakers, and all of these really interesting people to meet. So, why don't you tell me a little bit about what brought you to San Diego Startup Week?
\n\nJESSICA: Well, first things first is being a startup here in San Diego, so that made me go. And I knew it's very important, the more I'm realizing, to build your network and connect with people, and especially just within the community, getting yourself out there to be known, talking to other companies, even just showing your support to other startups. It's such an important thing to do.
\n\nVICTORIA: And your app, Flok22, specifically, solves some problems people might have with going to an event like that and trying to make friends and network with people. So, can you tell me a little bit more about the initial problem you had when you just came up with the idea for the app?
\n\nJESSICA: So, the initial problem was kind of around COVID time when everything opened back up. And there was this plethora of meetup apps that everybody was on trying to make these connections. And I would start to go out with friends, and as I'm looking around, it was that weird, awkward time where you couldn't talk to anybody you didn't come with.
\n\nAnd I would literally see people, including my friends, swiping on matching apps while they were sitting at the table, but nobody was talking to one another. And that's when I realized we needed something that was more venue-based, where it was like, hey, I'm here. I'm out. Let me see who's available to connect. And that's where the concept came about.
\n\nAnd then, during a lot of these networking events, I started to realize the same thing. It was people trying to network, and we're still doing the old-school name tags and signing our name on a paper. And it would just be so much more easier to have everybody on that one platform to connect with a little bit more effective and efficiently.
\n\nVICTORIA: And so, how long has it been since you had this idea and you've been in this journey with Flok22?
\n\nJESSICA: Well, it's been a little over two years. Right around COVID is when I got the idea. I was a hairdresser for, like, 20-plus years and wasn't working and at home with my three kids. And the idea just was kind of pricking at me. And it took me a while to try and figure out, you know, how can I do this? How can I, with no funds, you know, newly divorced, three kids, how am I going to start an app? And I just kept pushing on trying to connect with the right people and build a product.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. What inspired you? Like, you had this idea for an app. And you're like, you know what? I'm going to make it work. Like, what kept you going? What made you think this is a thing I can put my time and energy into and be successful?
\n\nJESSICA: You know, there's a lot of factors. I feel like it's just one of those things where you kind of just...you know how you just get that instinct and idea, and you're like, I just can't let it go? And I remember hitting a low point because I had tried to call different development teams. I had tried to do it on my own. And I felt like I wasn't getting anywhere.
\n\nAnd I was literally walking on a treadmill, and a friend gave me this YouTube thing to listen to, and it was Les Brown. And he was talking about if you were on your deathbed, you know, these ideas and these dreams, they're just staring you with angry eyes because they came to you for life. And it, like, hit me, like, very intensely to where I was like, I have to do this. I can't just look back in my life and be like, I had this idea. I know somebody's going to do it because everybody would be like, "This is a great idea." So, it's just a matter of you just got to keep going.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, I'm glad that you're working on this because I can totally relate to that experience of, you know, for me, I came from Washington, D.C., and moved to San Diego. When I was in D.C., I had spent years in the meetup community and organizing meetups. And so, it got to the point where anytime I went to a meetup, I would know at least one person there.
\n\nAnd now coming to San Diego, like, starting it all over again, was very daunting. And, like, walking into...what was it? San Diego tech event where there's, like, 100 people in this beautiful Balboa Park location and just being so nervous [laughs]. I'm like, who do I talk to? Like, how do I get started? And you immediately think I should just leave and go home [laughs]. But let me get a glass of Chardonnay and go over to the craft makers table and make some art and then I'll, like, feel a little bit better.
\n\nSo yeah, I'm curious, like, so you had this great idea. Like, you knew you wanted to put your effort into it. As you started going through the process of figuring out how to get started or how to find that market fit, was there anything that surprised you in your early stages that made you pivot into a new direction?
\n\nJESSICA: Well, I would say just, like, hearing your story, so many of us have been in that boat. I used to be a military wife, so I was always picking up and moving. And the older we get, it's hard to build and start up your network again. And I see a lot of people posting on Facebook or, you know, Instagram, and they're, like, putting their profile out there trying to make friends. So, there's definitely a need for it.
\n\nOriginally, I wanted it more for the social aspect, which was coffee shops, bars, restaurants, being able to just check in and see who's there that is open to connect. One thing we did kind of start to realize is a lot of people, even though they want to make those connections, people are still nervous to claim that they're trying to, like, make a friend. So, the biggest thing that we learned in the product-market fit was people were more inclined to use it for networking. They felt a little bit more secure and safer that way. So, I would say that would be a thing that we kind of picked up on.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that makes sense. Because when I'm going to networking, like, of course, I would love to find leads for people who need consulting work from thoughtbot or software development or platform engineering. But if you go in with that intention, it's disingenuous, and it's not very effective. Whereas if you go into a networking event with the intention to make friends and just to learn about people and to find common interest, it's, like, indirectly aiming at your target is the best way to actually get there [laughs]. So, it makes sense. And so, you pivoted into more events and networking. Has there been anything that you've found about that experience or that group of people that's surprised you, or?
\n\nJESSICA: I do feel like the social side will pick up on it. I just think it's going to take a little bit more time. But with the networking, I wasn't really doing any of that until I got into this startup. So, I didn't even see the need for it until I got in there. And then here I am, you know, going to a table, trying to find my name tag, and everything's still very much old school when it comes to that. And so, that was what surprised me is just was, like, this would be perfect. Everybody's trying to exchange their LinkedIns. Everybody is trying to find the right person.
\n\nAnd sometimes you get stuck in a conversation with somebody for 20 minutes, and it's some sales guy from who knows where, and you're just like, uh, I'm not really looking for that. You know what I mean? Great to connect, but got to go. So, it's so much better to just find the right people that you're looking for and network more efficiently.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I don't know if this is that exact experience, but what I've kind of heard from other founders is sometimes you go to a networking event, and maybe you're looking for, like, mentors or people to help you or your own [inaudible 10:09]. And then there's more people trying to sell things to you [laughs] than there are, like, those actual people you're looking for who would help you. So, that's really interesting. So, now you've started to kind of really get involved in the networking. And I'm curious: how many events have you gone to so far this year? Do you have a rough estimate?
\n\nJESSICA: I'm, like, trying to think. It's, like, such a blur because I really have been going to so many. And also, I've been a part of the SDAC E-track, which is the Angel Conference, San Diego Angel Conference that's coming up. So, we're hoping to get accepted in that. I'm going to say, at least this month, probably 12, I would suspect.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wait, 12 this month?
\n\nJESSICA: I think so, yeah. And some of them have been little ones. Like, I've done some happy hour events. There's these really cool, like, social happy hour events I've been trying to kind of partner up with. So, definitely some smaller ones, and then some bigger ones, and then including my E-track. So, that's kind of the calculation I have.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow, I mean, there's only been 15 days so far this month, so 13 events that's quite a lot [laughs]. I hope you do get some time to rest and play the drums later this month. But that's really exciting. So, I'm curious: as a founder, obviously, you have an event space networking app. But have you found other benefits from growing your network as an early-stage founder?
\n\nJESSICA: Definitely. The biggest impact is connecting with these people. And whether you read that book, "Rich Dad, Poor Dad," they say, you know, "Poor people look for work, and rich people build networks." And it's true because I'm noticing that for myself. You get around these people, and most of the time, they really do want to help, or you just need to have the ask, you know, ask what you're looking for. And they're more than willing to set you up with other people to get partnerships.
\n\nI ended up meeting somebody at the MIC Conference, which was in Vegas last month. And they connected me with somebody who now we are going to be partnering with them to have our app be used at their conference. So, it's as simple as that, just once you're in front of them and you get that more personal touch, and then they kind of refer you to other people.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that's great. And how does your app compare to the existing apps that are out there for networking at events or for managing attendees at events?
\n\nJESSICA: Well, currently, there's not anything that's doing it in real-time. There is some conference events they have, like Cvent, Whova app. Personally, to me, it was just there's so much going on. You have the event, you know, vendors. You have the schedule. You have so much going on. And for us, our main thing is just connecting you to the right person. So, it's a more simplistic version of just being able to simply check in, see the profiles of the people that are there, see what it is that you're looking for, and know that you want to connect with them.
\n\nAlso, the other feature that we have is allowing you to see anybody that you may have missed when you leave. So, you can kind of easily filter through those profiles and decide who to reach out to. I mean, similar to maybe, like, a meetup, but it's more just on demand. There quite hasn't been anything that's doing it right instantaneously.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, and I can agree. I've used some of those apps before. And what I've noticed there's just not a ton of activity or user activity on the day of. And I'm curious to see...I really want to try out Flok, too. I know I'm like [laughs], I haven't had a chance to actually get in there yet, but it is on my to-do list.
\n\nSo, I'm curious, you know, as someone who didn't have a background in technology or building applications, like, how did you go about getting up to speed and finding the people you needed to help you actually build the app?
\n\nJESSICA: Yeah, I mean, being a hairstylist, I was not tech at all. So, it's pretty interesting that here I am, you know, in this app development world. The main thing was just getting out there. I knew I had already been on so many apps just, whether it was some of the dating apps, meetup apps, so I knew how they operated and what I was looking for as a customer that I wanted to fix.
\n\nMost of the time, it was heavily with all these pictures, and prompts, and things like that, and I would get bored of setting it up. It would take me, like, you know, 30-plus minutes. Not to mention, I call it, like, adding people to your cart. It's just very impersonal. You got so many people just piling people to their cart. You might talk to them for a little bit, then stop. And I think people are just kind of getting over it. It's time-consuming. It's a lot of time and planning, and sometimes you plan something and then...even with the girls meeting a friend, it's like they plan something for Thursday, and somebody cancels, and then you're SOL, you know?
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh yeah. So, you had experience with using different apps for, like, networking or meeting people and making friends, and you saw that there was this gap. And then, how did you go to actually building the app? And were there any lessons that you learned in that process?
\n\nJESSICA: That was my experience and why I was doing that. The main thing I did after that was I started hitting up events to find and recruit. That was how I started finding...I met my co-founder through a mutual friend. She's been wonderful. She's, like, complete opposite of me. She's, like, the business-organized one. Like, hey, we need an LLC. We need this. We need that. I'm more just the idea and brains and kind of behind the scenes. Then I started going to some tech events, met our UI UX designer, Laura, who's been fantastic.
\n\nSo, that would be my advice to people. If you're looking to build and you're trying to find the right people, of course, LinkedIn could be a good spot. Y Combinator could be a good spot. For me, I think going out there and actually making the personal connections and meeting the people and ask them and find what you're looking for.
\n\nVICTORIA: And you could now even use Flok22 to find your early founder team [laughs].
\n\nJESSICA: Exactly. See?
\n\nVICTORIA: That's awesome.
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\n\nVICTORIA: So, you went out, and you just met people, and you had this compelling vision of what you wanted to build and were able to recruit them onto your team. Was there anything...you know, you've been at this for two years now. Through the development process, was there anything you learned about what to do or what not to do in how you engage with your designers and developers?
\n\nJESSICA: You know, it's like, we dove out there, like, headfirst. And then there was a period of time where we needed to pause and re-calibrate, and that was due to the fact that you have to be very diligent in looking for development if you're outsourcing. If you know a CTO or you have somebody in-house that, you know, you're working with, you may not have the problems that we ran into. But with outsourcing, there's still very much a gray area. And we ended up getting a product that was not really functional and had a lot of issues, which caused a huge setback for us. It was a great, you know, lesson learned if that. But you have to be really particular on who you're finding.
\n\nI would suggest heavily on finding somebody that is a referral from somebody that you know, as a matter of fact, that they use. Because nowadays, there's times that they can almost, like, fake what they have. I mean, they might have references. They'll put stuff up on their website showcasing products that they did, and those aren't even products that they did. So, we ran into a huge deal with that. But it made us take a step back. We re-honed in on our user persona, had our UI UX designer redesign everything, and came back out here again.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, because people will let you pay them to build anything [laughs].
\n\nJESSICA: Oh yeah.
\n\nVICTORIA: But it may not be exactly what you wanted. And what you said, going with someone who is a referral, going with someone who, I think, clearly demonstrates that they need to understand the underlying issue, as opposed to just being willing to take whatever requirements you have and build it. That's a big differentiator for companies.
\n\nAnd it can be frustrating because I think, you know, for thoughtbot, sometimes people come to us, and they're like, "We already have the designs. We already know what we want. You just build it for us." And we [inaudible 19:21], like, coach them around that. Like, are you sure? Like, let's look at your market validation, and let's look at your product fit. And, you know, let's go back and make sure that we're all aligned and that you're actually getting value out of something, and showing you the results on a regular basis, as opposed to it'll be done in three months, and you just wait until then. Sometimes, that can be $150,000 later, and, at the end, you're not actually getting a product that you really wanted.
\n\nJESSICA: Exactly. And like I said, there's still a big, gray area in that where, you know, you can be given a product, and it's not even barely working, or it looks like garbage. And you're kind of stuck because trying to go after these people to get your money back it's most likely not going to happen. And then you just lost out on all that money you put into that product. So, it can be very frustrating for people.
\n\nI hope to eventually kind of shed light on that and maybe help people along the way, so they don't fall trap to those type of kind of scammers that are out there for development. And I'm sure you, being CTO, you've seen a lot of that [chuckles].
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that's something we work really hard to kind of coach clients around and figure out to make sure because we don't want to end in that situation where our founder feels like we built something for them that doesn't work or doesn't look great, or what they're happy with [chuckles]. So yeah, I think it's very common. It happens to a lot of people. But I'm happy that you didn't get discouraged and you said, you know what? We can go for round two. Let's take what we learned and put it into the next version of the app.
\n\nAnd one of my favorite phrases from doing this podcast that I've heard is, "If the first product you build if you're proud of it, you didn't do it fast enough" [laughs]. So, like, usually, the first thing you build is not pretty, but you had to push through and build something. And that's the first application you've ever built. So, how did you feel about the second time going around? What did you do differently to be happier with and prouder of the product version that you put out there?
\n\nJESSICA: Yeah, I like that phrase, too, and sometimes I'm the same. It's kind of like, you know, fail fast and get out there. But the second build was definitely so much more smoother and better. But, actually, we are in transition to a newer, bigger development team because there's still some things that we're just not completely set on. And I do think that moving along to this next development team, there's a more better fit.
\n\nAnd then, we also received a grant from AWS to build a better back-end infrastructure, so when we do scale up, and there is more people on there, that it can withhold that capacity. So, I'm definitely happy with it right now. And I know that getting it out there—and you know this, too—is just getting it out there with all the users, you know, there may be some different feedback coming in and out. We plan on, you know, making any changes necessary if need be, and just kind of always making it a little better each time.
\n\nVICTORIA: Is that the AWS Activate program?
\n\nJESSICA: It's not the Activate, but it's just we're actually working with a company, and it was AWS. They had filled everything out for us, you know, they want to help startups getting out into the app world because, again, if we're making money, they're making money, too, with it being on their servers. So, it's kind of a win-win. And we can store all of that data and be able to scale up properly.
\n\nVICTORIA: Absolutely, yeah. And so, for those who don't know, the AWS Activate program, you can apply for up to $100,000 in free credits, and other cloud providers have similar programs where you can get free money [chuckles]. But, no, that's really cool that you're a part of that. So, what challenges do you see on the horizon for Flok22?
\n\nJESSICA: Of course, I hope there's going to be none, but we know in this entrepreneurial world, it's always there. I think, you know, the hard part are always going to be kind of those situations where maybe people aren't using the app properly or things of that sort happening. Other app companies have dealt with that. It's like, you could be out somewhere, and a situation happens.
\n\nSo, that's kind of the only thing that I would be worried about is just ensuring the safety of all of our users, making sure that everybody is understanding. And I guess when that time comes and if there are things that, you know, come at you, it's just a matter of handling it. So, I hope it's not anything too heavy, but I guess we'll see.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Well, I appreciate you having that concern early on. Because I do feel like sometimes people create apps for networking and collaboration without thinking about the safety of their users. And it's more common from founders who have never been in a situation where they're unsafe [laughs]. So, like, maybe from your unique perspective, you, like, know that that is an issue that you might need to solve or that will come up, and having a plan for it makes sense.
\n\nJESSICA: We definitely have a plan for it. I mean, a lot of people don't realize with these apps that are out there, there's actually been a pretty high increase in, like, sex trafficking and different things. And most people don't know that because they're not the ones going in there and doing the market research.
\n\nSo, our main thing is getting people out there to meet in public places, which is much safer. You're not, you know, getting lured and unsure if that's even the person who that they say they are, or you're going to someone's house or on a hike. It just makes it for a much safer environment. And then we're working on some other added features where, you know, you can kind of validate the people just to ensure that.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that makes sense. And what is the wind in your sails? What keeps you going and keeps you excited about working on this?
\n\nJESSICA: It's my passion. It's kind of like now; this has been my baby for a couple of years. So, of course, my family is always number one. I have three kids, a rat, two dogs, and a lizard. I adore my family, but I just have a passion for this. And I know that it's just a matter of time before this becomes a thing. And so, I just push myself on the daily trying to figure out the solutions and just keep moving forward with it.
\n\nVICTORIA: And what does success look like in six months, or even beyond that, in five years?
\n\nJESSICA: I think, for us, it will just be getting that heavy adoption of users, getting known out here in San Diego or in other parts. We plan on trying to hit more of the major cities where you got a lot of newcomers coming in and traveling, whether that's Chicago, New York, Miami, Vegas. As we get that adoption, just growing as a company and see where it goes from there.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. Yeah, I look forward to when I can go to a conference and just identify who are all the rock climbers in the room, and I can go bug and talk about [laughs], like, climbing with. I love that.
\n\nJESSICA: And, two, going to these conferences, also, not only your...you get to connect with the people that are there, but it's the people in the surrounding city, too. It's like a lot of people leave the conference, and they want to go to a bar or a coffee shop. And the fact that you have the option or opportunity to connect with the people who are there as well is a win-win.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that, yeah. And do you have any questions for me about thoughtbot, or the podcast, or anything like that?
\n\nJESSICA: For me, you being, like, a CTO, I know you've maybe...have you seen apps like this become successful? I would love your take on kind of getting out there in the market for something like this because we are at that stage where we're trying to hit the market pretty heavily. We're hitting college campuses, you know, bigger conferences, trying to get that adoption in small clusters for it to be, you know, fun and usable for users. But I would love your take on that.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, and, actually, I'm a managing director. Our CTO is Joe Ferris, who's currently my acting dev director for my team. But from my experience, you know, there might be a lot of competing apps who try to aim for similar things. But if you're very closely understanding your users and their needs and focusing on solving their problems, then you will find your niche, and you'll be able to be successful and grow that from there. So, if you have a strong vision for what the problem is and you're willing to actually listen to your users and pivot based off of that, that will set you up to be successful.
\n\nYeah, and I've talked about this with other friends who are really into networking and meeting up with people. And there continues to be this gap of, like, how people communicate and how we actually connect. So, I think you're on the right track [chuckles], and you're doing a lot of great things.
\n\nAnd I think the only other advice I would say is what you've already kind of pointed out is to make sure you're not burning out early on and that you're taking that time and space to be with your family and to do your hobbies, and having a strong rest ethic as you do a work ethic and making sure you're still a whole person. And you'll make better decisions if you're giving your brain a little bit of downtime.
\n\nJESSICA: Definitely. I so agree with you. That's very important to have that balance. And we just hope that we can fill that gap when it comes to the networking. So, I hope that everyone can give it a try and see what they think.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that, yeah. Is there anything else that you would like to promote?
\n\nJESSICA: I mean, honestly, this is not so much about me. I'm really passionate about this app and networking and connecting people together and getting it, so it's just more easy for everybody to connect out in person without wasting that time and energy. Just be out doing you and meet the right people. That's what Flok22 is all about.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And we'll have to get together and play some music. I'll tell you the two songs I have memorized on piano right now are Kiss from a Rose by Seal and Someone Like You by Adele, so...[laughs]
\n\nJESSICA: Oooh.
\n\nVICTORIA: But we do have a bit of a girls' band going in San Diego, so we'll connect on that, too [laughs].
\n\nJESSICA: Yeah, we'll have to link up. Add some drums to your...
\n\nVICTORIA: We don't have a drummer, so that's perfect, yeah [laughs].
\n\nJESSICA: See? It's networking at its best [laughs].
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, yeah. I love it. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate hearing your story.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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Sponsored By:
If you missed the other episodes with thoughtbot Incubator Program partcipant and founder Josh Herzig-Marks of Knect, you can listen to Josh's first episode, his second, an his third to catch up.
\n\nJosh Herzig-Marx, founder of Knect, discusses the latest developments in his startup journey since his last appearance on the show. He emphasizes the program's value in helping founders like himself refine ideas and strategies. He particularly notes the program's effectiveness in addressing challenges unique to startups, such as managing professional networks and dealing with the rapid growth of online presence.
\n\nThe conversation also delves into AI's technical aspects and potential applications and the practicalities and ethical considerations of using it in professional networking. Josh and Jordyn explore various AI use cases, distinguishing between beneficial applications and those they deem undesirable.
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nLINDSEY: We are back for our Incubator update with Josh Herzig-Marx and his startup, Knect. I'm Lindsey Christensen. I do marketing things at thoughtbot. We are also joined by Jordyn Bonds, who runs our incubator and does product strategy for thoughtbot. And today, we're going to be catching up with Josh and learn what's new since last we checked in. But before we get to that, we have an exciting incubator update: our application window has just reopened.
\n\nJORDYN: Yes.
\n\nLINDSEY: You could be the next Josh.
\n\nJORDYN: You could.
\n\nJOSH: Don't be me. You should join the incubator.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nJORDYN: Go to thoughtbot.com/incubator and apply. It's just that easy. The application doesn't take long, even though it's in Typeform, and we have gotten some feedback, including from Josh, that it's challenging to plan your application efforts because, as you all probably know, Typeform just gives you one question at a time. So, sorry, maybe we'll update that. But it won't take you very long. It's a pretty brief application. And we are looking for pre-product folks, so you don't have to have a lot. Don't worry about what you do or don't have. Just apply.
\n\nLINDSEY: Pre-product founder trying to figure out, is this problem worth solving? Who is it for? Jordyn and the team can help you out. thoughtbot.com/incubator.
\n\nJOSH: And me.
\n\nLINDSEY: And Josh.
\n\nJOSH: And if, for some reason, you want to ask somebody about the program who isn't directly affiliated with thoughtbot, you should reach out to me. I'd be happy to talk about my experience.
\n\nLINDSEY: You should.
\n\nJOSH: I'd be happy to tell you what I think would be some reasons to join and some reasons that it might not be a good fit for you. And I'd be happy to chat about any of those things. It'd be my pleasure, in fact.
\n\nLINDSEY: That is a great offer.
\n\nJORDYN: It is a great offer. You all should take Josh up on that offer. He is an excellent sounding board and mentor. And additionally, if you get into the incubator, you'll just be in a Slack channel with Josh for the rest of time, inside of thoughtbot's Slack. So, that's another [crosstalk 02:05]
\n\nJOSH: Statistically, there's a good chance you already are.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nJORDYN: You mean in a slack with you. That's true. Josh is in a lot of Slacks, not [crosstalk 02:14].
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. Once you go through the incubator, you're family for life.
\n\nJORDYN: You're family. You're here. You're with us. You can't get rid of us.
\n\nLINDSEY: And you're able to hit us up with the questions, talk to the other founders, so that's another great benefit of participating. All right, but topic of the hour, Josh, hey, how are you? How you doing?
\n\nJOSH: Lindsey, I am floating right now. We had our end of incubator session last official meeting. And we reviewed how we started, what we hope to accomplish, what we actually did accomplish, and next steps, and it feels really awesome.
\n\nLINDSEY: It does. That's so great to hear. And can you, at the top here, maybe remind folks who haven't listened before, you know, what was that beginning point that you came in the incubator or the problem that you were looking to solve?
\n\nJOSH: So, I had this Josh problem, which is that I am overwhelmed by the number of places that I am online and by the rapid increase in my professional network, professional social network, I guess you could say, but in my professional network, you know, see that comment a few minutes ago about how we're probably already in multiple Slacks together, whoever you happen to be online. Plus, if you're on LinkedIn, we're probably at least secondary connections on LinkedIn. Like, there's an awful lot of people, and it's growing really, really fast.
\n\nAnd as somebody with a whopping case of ADD, which just feels like making an excuse, as somebody in, like, this modern world, I was feeling overwhelmed, and I felt like I was dropping the ball. And my problem was somebody must have a solution to this. I cannot be the only one. I could not find a solution myself. And I thought, well, maybe if there is no existing solution, maybe we should just go ahead and build it. And that was the genesis of my application to the thoughtbot incubator, which was that even though I've done this once before, I had never done this alone. I don't want to do this alone.
\n\nAnd I thought that, you know, because of my experience with thoughtbot in the past and my understanding of, like, thoughtbot's unique organizational skills and capacities, this would be a particularly good fit for the thing that I wanted to figure out. And when I say figure it out, there was really four things I was hoping to get from this program. Let's see if I can remember them all in order. Number one, is this a Josh problem, or is this a broader problem affecting more people? Number two, this is, like, a ladder of problems, right? Like a cascading set.
\n\nNumber two thing I was trying to figure out: if this isn't just a Josh problem, is there at least one identifiable and addressable set of people who think about this problem in a similar way with whom I could engage? Number three, if there is such a group, are they willing, ready, and able to, like, spend money on solving this problem? And then number four, which I guess is kind of orthogonal to the other ones, it's kind of alongside, is this thing to solve even technically feasible, right?
\n\nBecause you can have this, like, amazing opportunity, but you just can't build it. And, you know, is this a thing that we could build or that I could get built within the resources that I might have? And I came in with some hypotheses, with some ideas. It's not like I had never done any research in this at all. But coming out of it, we have four pretty good answers. And I would not have been able to reach those answers with the same level of confidence, certainly not within eight weeks, if I hadn't gone through the incubator, and it's a really nice way to end the year.
\n\nLINDSEY: With a bow on it. The last time we talked, you had narrowed in, I think, on your starting target market. And you had also recently introduced a prototype into the mix. How has the prototype evolved?
\n\nJOSH: It's...and this is going to be no surprise to either of you or anybody who's listening. But, like, the difference between, like, talking about something in the abstract and actually having, like, a thing in your hand is night and day. So, the prototype actually evolved pretty rapidly. You know, it allowed us to try using it, like, to put on our own empathetic user analog hats and try it ourselves and be like, "Well, this doesn't quite make sense." This doesn't actually flow right. And it allowed us to show it to a lot of people.
\n\nI'll say, we are, by far, our own strongest critics, which is good. Mostly, when we showed it to people, people are like, "This is amazing." And they would ask us, like, really specific, weird questions like, "Where's, you know, your about page? Could I see your privacy policy?" which is, like, a really, really good thing to hear. Because if the only thing...one way to interpret that is the only thing keeping them from maybe, like, diving in and using it right now, besides it doesn't actually exist as a product, is, like, some questions around privacy because it seems maybe too good to be true. Like, that's a pretty good buy sign.
\n\nYou know, we were expecting, like, "The screen makes no sense. Why are we swiping here? Where does this data come from? Is this really complete?" They're like, "No, I'm pretty much ready to go." So, that was good, helpful feedback, though we evolved it ourselves a lot internally. It's really nice having a thing. Do we use the term Pinocchio prototype or Pinocchio test [crosstalk 06:58]?
\n\nLINDSEY: Yes, I did hear that.
\n\nJOSH: Yeah, I like that. If this was like, you know, this wooden toy wanted to be a real boy, like, two weeks ago, it really, really wants...I don't know, Lindsey, we should, you know, get you in front of it. You're going to be like, "Why can't I use this today?"
\n[laughter]
JORDYN: That's definitely what we're hearing from people.
\n\nJOSH: And my answer would be, "Well, you can't, but maybe in a couple of weeks." [laughs]
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, exactly. I will say I want to say for anyone listening in, though, that that was not, getting to what Josh just described where folks weren't really...they didn't have any hang-ups about the functionality or the value prop. They were basically just like, "What's your privacy policy? And when is it going to be ready for me to use?" It's not like the first draft of this prototype that was what we jumped to. I want to be clear.
\n\nThe first time we showed someone, there was this interesting problem, which is that we were still talking to the wrong people, somewhat. And the prototype hadn't evolved to be the slam dunk that it is now. So, at first, it was like, we'd have these kinds of muddled conversations where people were like, "Well, I don't really understand what this is supposed to be, and I'm not sure about that. And this seems interesting," but then their interpretation of what that thing was would be, like, wildly off from what it was intended to be. I just want to make it clear: this was work and effort.
\n\nAnd the team did a really great job of iterating quickly based on, like, every time we talked to someone and showed it to them, we'd come back and say, "Here's what I heard." And it really pushed our thinking forward. Like Josh said, like, we are our toughest critics, so, like, every new version unlocked some new insights in ourselves about what it was we were actually driving toward. Really, just there's nothing like having a thing to look at and bang on to, like, clarify your thinking.
\n\nLINDSEY: There's nothing like having a thing. Jordyn, you touched on you were talking to the wrong people, maybe. How has that exploration of the core market evolved? Is it still the startup enthusiasts? Are you even more narrow in that? What are the updates there as our chief market focus get everyone thinking about this all the time, officer?
\n\nJORDYN: Yes. So, you know, startup enthusiasts is still the umbrella. What you're looking for with this is that you can guarantee pretty much every time you talk to someone in a segment or a sub-segment you will know how the conversation is going to go. And we've gotten there with two sub-segments of startup enthusiasts, which is repeat founders, key, key kind of nuance there. Founders, sure, but repeat founders really have this problem, for reasons we could talk about, and then chiefs of staff at startups, which is a relatively new role that's sort of emerged over the last sort of several years.
\n\nBut those folks are really the people that you ask them about this pain point, and they immediately are, like, yes. They use the same words to talk about the pain point. That's another really strong signal. When folks are using the same vocabulary, and they say the same sentences in the same order, and you start to feel a little bit creeped out, like, you're like, "Did you see these questions before I...? What? Did someone pay you to say that?" is, like, how you start to feel [laughs] [crosstalk 09:59]
\n\nLINDSEY: Also, a marketer's dream. Oh my gosh, here comes the messaging, right?
\n\nJORDYN: Exactly.
\n\nLINDSEY: [inaudible 10:04]
\n\nJORDYN: It feels like a cheat code because you just get to reflect their language back to them. You don't have to write copy. They wrote the copy. You just show them it, and they're like, yes. And everyone's like, "Yes," and it works.
\n\nLINDSEY: Any thoughts to add to that, Josh?
\n\nJOSH: It's really good. I would say the bummer or the good thing about this point is we're getting diminishing returns from testing everything other than the actual product, which is good that we got there in eight weeks. But we're not going to learn, you know, keep on adjusting the prototype and making little tweaks and more user research. But the truth is, we're not going to get anything substantial until we get this into some users' hands.
\n\nJORDYN: Like you say, this is sort of bad news, but it's good news.
\n\nJOSH: Right.
\n\nJORDYN: It's how you know, right? When you get to the point where the thing is so clear, and the way to talk about it with folks is so clear that you're not learning as much anymore, diminishing returns is the right way to frame it. You really just need people to get in there and use it. That's the only way you're going to keep learning. That's the moment to build. Hey, everyone out there, don't build before that. That's when you build. And then you really build the smallest thing you can conceive of building, and then whatever that thing is that you've conceived of building that's very small, scope it back by 50% [laughs]. Do it.
\n\nJOSH: And it's a little humbling as someone who considers himself a founder but who had reasonable success as a founder and who has had pretty good success as, like a very, very early-stage, you know, zero to one and 1 to 10 product leader, has done this a bunch of times and actually coaches people in doing this, and came in with, I'm not going to lie, a pretty good vision in my head for how this stuff was supposed to work together. And it's so much better now.
\n\nGoing through a process actually makes things better. This wasn't just, like, wasting time. Like, going through a process, a thoughtful process actually makes us much better. Like, the thing we're talking about building is much more likely to be successful than the thing I was originally thinking about building, right, Jordyn?
\n\nJORDYN: Yes. I guess it bears sort of diving into that a little bit, which is, you know, for all the founders out there or folks with a product idea kicking around your head, you're apt to have a little bit of everything we've talked about already. You have an idea of the solution you want to build. You have an idea of who it's for. You have an idea of what their pain points are. And you might be sitting there thinking to yourself, I don't need to do eight weeks of discovery. I already know the answers to all of these questions.
\n\nAnd it's possible Josh felt that way coming into the incubator, but doing the work, gathering the data, talking to a ton of people, what you can't understand before doing that is how much more confident and at ease you will feel once you have done it and how much clarity you'll have about what it is you need to build first because likely, you're sitting there with a vision in your head for this product that is fully featured, fully formed.
\n\nIt is the 18th month. We just went into a hidey hole and built a really complex thing, thing. Cool, don't throw that out. But you got to begin somewhere, and you got to begin somewhere meaningful and valuable. And it's really hard to know where to begin without this discovery, without focusing on a specific person, talking to as many of those folks as you can. And really, it sort of writes itself. It does feel easy. But you've got to set aside the time and the effort to do the research, market research, whatever we call this, customer discovery.
\n\nAnd it thrills me to no end, Josh, to hear that that is how it felt for you, that you probably felt like you already knew the answer. But it just feels different, having talked to, I mean, how many people, 100-plus people? We were looking at the stats.
\n\nJOSH: Well over 100.
\n\nLINDSEY: Josh was talking to a bunch of people before he came to the incubator, and all the founders that we accept have been doing that. Like, we want to know that you've been doing that research. But then, I guess, coming into the incubator, you're continuing that process and maybe in a more structured or a differently structured way where the thoughtbot team is helping you, maybe zero in far deeper on the segment. Is that accurate to say? Just kind of the difference between, like, maybe some of the pre-research and then the thoughtbot-specific user interviews that happen.
\n\nJOSH: Yeah. I think they were more focused. They're both more focused from the audience, but also more focused from if it's not just you doing it; it forces you to have a more clear, here's the questions we're asking, and here's what we're trying to learn, all these conversations.
\n\nIt's also really nice to have some diversity in who's asking the questions. As good or bad as I am at user research and user discovery, I am only one person. And having people with different backgrounds professionally, who live in different countries, who have different feelings about social media, basically, who are not me in a variety of really interesting ways, I think, made the entire process more interesting.
\n\nCaro, who is our lead designer on the project, handed off basically the summary document of, like, everything we learned, and she pulled out, like, little snippets from the interviews. First of all, that is not something I would have done had it been just me, like, let's be very, very clear. This is an incredibly valuable document, particularly as we consider adding additional people onto this project to be able to, like, translate insights. But also, like, this is, like, summarized in a way that, like, takes some real expertise. And I would have walked away with vibes, and instead, we walked away with like, structured learning.
\n\nLINDSEY: Awesome. So, the last time we checked in, also, you were very excited because you had just maybe started a technical spike and were starting to dig into the, okay, like, how technically feasible is this product? And I think, at that point, you all were looking at circling around this target market. Here are the main tools they use to communicate. What does it even look like to connect with those APIs? How possible is it? Can you give us an update on some of that work?
\n\nJOSH: The way that I framed the question in the very beginning was, is this a science project, or is this going to be engineering? And, for the most part, the answer is, it's going to be engineering, right? Some are a little bit easier; some are a little bit harder. But it isn't, like, reinventing new stuff, with one exception, and that is connecting up with iMessages, which has been in the news a little bit. And I honestly just hope the ghost of Steve Jobs comes back and haunts, you know, the Apple headquarters at Cupertino because, come on, guys, interoperability is sort of the future, and you're ruining it for everybody.
\n\nBut other than that, I think we have a pretty clear path. I'd like to test out some of these. Like, you don't really know until you do it. I think that's kind of the next step of what we're doing is to, like, demonstrate that it is possible for a person to connect up a couple of different accounts. It is possible for us to extract data and turn that into information and insights in the kinds of ways we thought we could and then present that back in a meaningful way. I think that would be the next step for us to do. Mostly, everything seems feasible, except for iMessages.
\n\nLINDSEY: I've also, I think, heard some whispers of artificial intelligence for Knect. Is that true? Have you all looked at, you know, what AI's role could be in the solution? And how does that research look?
\n\nJORDYN: We assume it will be part of the mix. That said, I don't know how to frame it exactly. It's not like it's not an essential ingredient. I think the work with large language models and the democratization of that work recently is absolutely going to make this product way better than it would have otherwise been. But there are a lot of heuristics we've, like, been able to, you know, draw out and come up with that are, frankly, algorithmic, and they're not AI necessarily. Now, the line between big data plus an algorithm and AI in the popular lexicon, like, there's a big difference between those two things. But, like, as people talk about it, yeah, where does one end and the other begin?
\n\nBut we definitely will be making use of a lot of the newest technologies, and we've dabbled in them. I've dabbled in them. I know, Josh, you've been playing around with some of them, too, to the point where we're like, okay, yeah, we can make use of this stuff. It will be a valuable kind of tool in our toolkit, but it will not be the sole basis of value. I guess that's the sort of nuanced answer. But maybe Josh has a more bite-sized hype machine answer to this. Yeah, AI to the moon, right?
\n\nJOSH: Um, no. My only answer would be more cynical. Would anybody rightfully start a company in 2023 without having AI in there someplace? Maybe I'll say something different. One of the things that we've wondered is, there's more than a handful of companies that are adjacent to what we're doing that are definitely looking at similar kinds of problems and that aren't building the solution that, clearly, some market is, like, desperate for. And these are not, like, wildly successful companies that have grown astronomically and changed the market. And, like, trying to figure out, like, why is that?
\n\nAnd one of the reasons is...I sound like a tech bro, right? There has been a paradigm shift in the technology world, but there really has been. What do, you know, publicly available LLMs like, you know, OpenAI's ChatGPT, like, what have they done? They have taken a whole set of problems that were once really, really complicated and allowed you to do a reasonable job of solving them much more easily than you ever could before.
\n\nAnd it takes some amount of imagination, to realize that, to realize that these things are more than just, I mean, every product I have on my computer has some kind of OpenAI ChatGPT-style thing in there, right? It's, like, 16 different variations on give me a prompt, and I'll write your essay for you, and they all kind of suck. But those aren't the really exciting uses that I've seen. It's the more subtle things.
\n\nThere's a company called Booklet, which tries to replace, like, noisy email lists or noisy communities to something more calm. And one of its features is it'll send you a summary of what's been going on in the community since, like, the last time you checked in. And it gives you, like, two paragraphs to read, and they're really chill and really informative, and they don't make you feel FOMO. They don't make you feel stressed up. Like, okay, stuff's happened in the community. This is really neat. And it's all powered by OpenAI's APIs. And it's really kind of magical. And, like, you have to have a slightly different perspective to imagine these kinds of magical moments. So, that's what I'm excited about.
\n\nThere's a set of things that we would have had to do with, like, terrible, complicated queries and, like, pattern matching, and freaking grep, or whatever old-school tools we would have had, you know, for doing things in the past. And now you just get to, like, shove text in one end, and say how you want the results structured and get the results back in the other end. And it doesn't have to be perfect, but that's okay. Like, we're talking about human relationships, which are inherently imperfect. So, I'm fine with this. And it's kind of exciting.
\n\nBut we'll see in, you know, if we end up continuing going down this path. Like, that's the goal of the next stage is to be, like, okay, what are the easy things which we can generate out of this? Is there an intersection between, like, easy and meaningful? And if there is, this is pretty exciting.
\n\nJORDYN: Can I add something to that? Which is that the problem Knect is trying to solve and the way that we're trying to solve it, the way we've thought of solving it that's differentiated, lends itself really well to the current landscape of AI tools in that, and you were kind of getting at this, Josh, but I feel like it bears drilling into a little bit, in that what we are proposing here is not a set of deterministic things. We're not going to give you a to-do list. It's not, like, a linear...deterministic is really the right word. Like, there's a to-do list. There are things that make the cut. You got to go address them, et cetera.
\n\nWe're way more trying to approximate the way a slightly more put-together person with more time would approach nurturing their relationships, which is just to remember more of it more of the time. It doesn't mean we need to remember all of it every time. That's not the kind of task this is, which makes it a really good task for the place that AI is at right now.
\n\nAnd I think where folks have failed in the past is that they've either tried to turn it into a deterministic set of tasks, which then just feels like another to-do list, another inbox in a series of to-do lists and inboxes that you have in your life that just make you feel guilty and inadequate. That doesn't seem fun to us. We don't think you need another one of those. Or other places we've seen this fall down, which is that it takes the current sort of state of AI and tries to actually do the deterministic thing for you, but it doesn't do a good enough job right now.
\n\nBut where we've kind of landed in the middle is that, again, what we're trying to solve for is solvable in a way more probabilistic way. Like, can we get more of this accomplished more easily for you? It's never going to, like, completely, you know, do the task in this perfect deterministic way. But it is going to make you feel more confident and more relaxed à la Booklet, it sounds like, how to do that for this particular problem, which is a different bar and one we think we can clear. And that really does provide value. People are really longing for this.
\n\nLINDSEY: Jordyn and Josh, building on those descriptions of, like, kind of maybe bad AI use case, good AI use case, could you give some specific examples of, like, what that might look like for Knect, like, how AI could be used in a good way or maybe what you're trying to avoid, more specifically?
\n\nJOSH: Yeah. First, I'm going to start with what I want to avoid, which is, there are tools out there, and these may be interesting to some people listening, and if so, go find them. Good luck. But there are tools out there that say things like, "Keep in touch with your network at scale." And will use AI to write a message which you can send out to people without you ever having to, like, review it. That seems like creepy, futuristic sort of, you know, there's, like, a Black Mirror episode about that.
\n\nLike, the whole point of having, like, a professional network of people who you care about is actually interacting with them. And having some service, like, write some prompt, maybe in its own voice, maybe if it's really good in your voice to, like, let them know that you care about them, let them know that you're thinking about them is, like, that's just bad. I think that's bad. And we don't have any plans to do that kind of thing, even though most uses for AI in the products that I use are writing three or four paragraphs in response to, like, a prompt. So, certainly, that's the common use case.
\n\nIt's not very appealing to us, and, frankly, in the people we were talking to, that wasn't one of the things that anybody ever suggested. It's obvious, but as far as we can tell, uninteresting, right? Just because it's obvious and just because it's straightforward doesn't mean it's interesting.
\n\nThe things we're imagining, for example, is, talk about Jordyn. Jordyn and I have known each other since 2020, I think. And we have, like, a whole history of text messages going back and forth, which, by the way, we actually could integrate because we both have Android phones, you know, shout-out for Open Internet. It might be interesting to, you know, summarize some of that, like, I know Jordyn pretty well, but other people who I might have not talked with in a while, sure, you could present me with a whole timeline of our communication. But that isn't necessarily useful. I'll have to read every bit of it.
\n\nWhy not, like, take all that and summarize, here's things you guys talk about. Here's things that, like, prompted your past few conversations: job change, got laid off, started a company, got a cat. Whatever those topics happen to be like, share some of those things. Bring me up to speed a little bit faster without having to literally review every word that could have been going back multiple years. That's a pretty good use of it.
\n\nIf you think about the way that messages work, right? Like, my kids are now at the age where they have phones, and I can now text my kids during the day. I will just tell you, like, this is, like, an incredibly joyful thing for me to be able to send, like, stupid memes to my kids or, like, what's exactly the right emoji to, like, send to them or for them to send to me.
\n\nIf every one of these things were, like, pushed to some kind of timeline, and I'm like, "What's going on with my kids?" Like, that's just, like, going back and reading through, like, your WhatsApp thread, which is something that isn't interesting necessarily, at least not from, like, a professional perspective. And there's, like, thousands of these things.
\n\nLike, why do I want, like, a record in my, like, database of people who I talk to that says, "OMG," or "K," or "lol," or those sorts of things? Like, that's, like, a phrase. It isn't a conversation. And we could use an LLM to go summarize what the conversation was all about, which is, by the way, a way more interesting thing to persist over time than, like, my daughter typing "JK, JK, JK," which I think is 15-year-old for laughing at me, but I'm not entirely sure.
\n\nLINDSEY: [laughs] Okay, so as you are...you mentioned wrapping up, and you did your last meeting, and you've got your kind of takeaway docs. You know, one, I'm curious, like, if there's, for your last, you know, days, hours of the program, if there's any final morsels you're trying to get out of it, and then how that kind of leads you into, like, what's next. What are you planning?
\n\nJOSH: Let's do another one of these things in two weeks.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nLINDSEY: Oh, okay.
\n\nJOSH: Yeah. I'm inviting myself back on your show. We have one more day of school then, like so many folks, we get in a plane or get in a car and go do some travel and try to disconnect a little bit from our professional networks. So, I'm consciously not trying to say what's going to happen next. I would love to have this conversation again, maybe in two weeks, in the new year, about what comes next. I don't know that I could have a meaningful one right now.
\n\nJORDYN: I will say what we are trying to send Josh off with into his R&R is what's it going to take to get to a viable MVP, not merely viable, but actually viable? Given what we know, given all this, you know, work that we've done in the last eight weeks, we now have, you know, the ability to envision what version one of something might be. And so, making that kind of argument: here's why it is what we're imagining it to be; here's what it is; here's what it would take to build that thing, gives Josh a lot of stuff to think about in the meantime in terms of how to accomplish that.
\n\nAnd the thing that will happen in two weeks is understanding a little bit more about, like, the actual, okay, here's the actual plan. But the ingredients are there, which is super valuable and is a thing we have done every time at the end of every incubator we've done. It's essentially a...it is that what's next plan and why, why that thing. What's the ultimate upside of pursuing this product, and what's the near-term upside? And what's it going to take to get there?
\n\nBecause that's often a thing that founders, especially for some founders, which Josh is not, but what they often can't get their heads around is there's this little feeling if you've got this big vision over here, and you've got, like, the set of things you could do tomorrow, really tasky things really, like, operational things, oh, I need to, like, set up a C Corp, but I need to...whatever those things are, right? What's in between? What's that near-term path that's going to directionally head in the direction of that big vision? It's, so far, always, what we have sent founders off with.
\n\nLINDSEY: So, if you weren't here at the very beginning of our session, we mentioned that the applications are now open for session 1 of 2024. I'm curious, Josh, what kind of founders would you recommend for the thoughtbot incubator? What's the profile of someone you might send our way?
\n\nJOSH: I'm going to say something, and I don't think I match that profile, which is interesting, and folks should think about that, what that means. But I would say that if I had to, like, pick a profile, having gone through this, I would say somebody with an idea, of course; ideally, it's one that they have some connection to. They have some personal passion for but, not just because it's an abstract idea but a personal passion that comes from their own experience.
\n\nAnd it's really great for somebody who hasn't been inside of a tech company before, at least on the tech, half the business. Tech companies have three halves: one half is, you know, the product building side of bit of it or the tech half, which is engineers, and product designers, and product managers. And the other half of that is the go-to-market side, like sales, and marketing, and customer success. And the third half would be, like, operations like HR and finance.
\n\nSo, if you have experience in, like, the sales, or the marketing, or the customer success side, or the HR, or the finance, or corporate operations or that part of it, and, you know, you're familiar with tech coming from that perspective but maybe haven't been on the actually building stuff side of them before, this is a really, really good process. Because what does thoughtbot do? It does the building in tech side of things: designers, product managers, and especially engineers.
\n\nAnd it has this, like, legacy and this history and expertise, therefore, with, like, the journeyman program where they help, like, level people up in those areas and now are applying this to founders. Because as the founder, you do need to develop some ability to converse around engineering and technical stuff. And you really, really, really, really need to get good at the discovery side, especially of, like, product design and product management. And those are the things you're going to get to do and you're going to get to do with people who are themselves really, really good at it. And that's awesome.
\n\nThe flip side is if you're, you know, a founder who is super attached to every bit of your vision, and you think you have the strategy all laid out and you're just looking for, like, warm bodies to build it, I mean, is it the insight team? What's the right level at thoughtbot? I forget the names of things, but, like, thoughtbot has, like, a startup program where you can give thoughtbot money, and they will build things for you. And they're also really, really good at that, but that's not the incubator program. The incubator program is probably a step earlier.
\n\nSo, I think it is worth thinking, are you at the I'm so confident of my vision; I'm so confident in my strategy that I just want to get this thing built, then maybe don't sign up for the Incubator.
\n\nBut if you're at the stage of I think this is a problem; I'm pretty sure this is a problem; I really want it to get solved; I have some vision, but I know it's going to change, then I think the incubator is really ideal, especially if you're looking to upskill yourself, too, because you're going to walk away with the ability to be conversant around the technology stuff. And you're going to walk away with a crap ton of experience with the discovery, qualitative discovery, like user interviews, quantitative discovery, like, you know, running ads, and landing pages, and all that stuff. Like, you're going to be really solid with that stuff after eight weeks because you will have done it.
\n\nLINDSEY: Jordyn, any thoughts?
\n\nJORDYN: I love all that. I think it's accurate. I would only say to those of you sitting out there who are thinking, I'm in that other camp; I'm very confident about what it is I want to build; I would ask you to do a little soul-searching as to whether that's actually true. Like, what evidence do you have? If you needed to stand up in court and defend your conclusions and your vision, could you?
\n\nAnd I say that as the person who, as a first-time founder, was deluded in that way. I thought I knew exactly what I was doing and for whom and why. And, boy, howdy, could I have used a program like this to actually get me to sit down and, like, talk to people, listen to them, figure out what was valuable and what wasn't, what a valuable, you know, initial market offering was going to be like. Ah, I wish really, really badly that I'd had something like this because I was pretty deluded. I don't even know, like, what the right word is. I just didn't know what I didn't know.
\n\nSo, like the way you described it, Josh, I know Jordyn of 2017 would have been like, "That's me. I know this thing that I need to do.
\n\nLINDSEY: [laughs]
\n\nJORDYN: So, I don't need to apply to this program because I don't need to do any of that discovery work." But I was wrong [laughs]. I was absolutely wrong. I was wrong to the tune of, you know, two years and $150,000 of angel investment. So, consider, it is not idly that I say this to you, person sitting out there who feels very confident in your vision right now. Perhaps you have done all those things already; in that case, [inaudible 33:43] you don't need this. And you just need to [inaudible 33:46] with the thing you already know to be true. But ask yourself, how do you know what you know?
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, even if you...we can help you build the thing. But we're probably, also, still going to push you on [laughs] some of those things we [crosstalk 34:01].
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, we're still going to ask. We're going to ask to see the receipts.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah [laughs].
\n\nJORDYN: And maybe you have the receipts, which is great, but we're still going to ask you for them, I guess, is my point. Every team at thoughtbot will ask you for the receipts, by the way, not just mine [laughs].
\n\nLINDSEY: The other interesting thing you touched on, Josh, was, I think, where we kind of started the incubator was with that target profile that you just described, which is, like, the less technical founder, and maybe even, like, a first-time founder. And then over time and seeing, like, applications, we broadened that as we saw, like, oh, you know, actually, also, technical founders and repeat founders do still need, like, help with this and can use guidance. So, we've expanded a bit, and maybe that is still, like, the person who gets the most value at the end of the day is the non-technical who hasn't really done this before. But yeah, we've kind of expanded to those other profiles as well.
\n\nJOSH: There's a reason that repeat founders are no more successful on average than first-time founders, and it's something really important that Jordyn said, which is, you may think you've done all this, but we're going to ask you for the receipts. Just because you've done this before doesn't mean you're going to be good at it. Chances are, if you've done this before, it's mostly because you got really, really lucky; ask me how I know.
\n\nSo, it's nice to have. I mean, I described a profile, and I said that wasn't me. But I'll just tell you, as somebody who, like, spent his entire career, almost his entire career, in the tech side of tech companies, and I think I'm pretty good at it, I'm certainly not the worst at it, thinks I'm pretty good at it, it's still really nice to have a team backing you up in this early moment. It's really nice to have a team.
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, I will say another thing that we've heard from every founder we've worked with is just how much more real and actionable their idea feels when they have a team sitting there with them taking them seriously, which is another thing, you know, I really would have benefited from is, like, suddenly, when you've got three or more industry professionals sitting there in a Zoom call with you, like, okay, what are we doing? Why are we doing this? How do we know?
\n\nThe feeling of being taken seriously in that way and then having a bunch of people working full-time with you for eight weeks, they're in it with you; they're asking the questions; they're talking to people; they're coming back and saying, "I just had the most amazing conversation with someone. Here's what I learned," it just takes your project to a different level of reality.
\n\nLike, we're humans. We're social beings. We create reality together. And when you're working alone, you know, through force of will, you can do a lot, but with a group, it really feels like you're creating something together. And, like Josh said, having those other brains with other experiences in other contexts percolating on your idea it's like bringing a team to bear on something. There's just nothing quite like it, and it's a huge value of the program. Like, we can give you the programming and, in fact, you can go run the programming. It is published in our handbook. The things that we do together you can go do, but it is a whole other matter to do them with a team. It just feels different.
\n\nLINDSEY: Great. Well, I think that's where we're going to end today. I mean, Josh is leaving us hanging a little bit. So, we might need to...we're going to figure out a way to get your final thoughts, conclusions in a few weeks because I know everyone would love to hear what the plan is for Knect. Josh and Jordyn, as always, thank you so much. Any final thoughts or farewells from you today?
\n\nJOSH: I've really enjoyed it. I'm going to miss these folks. Though, apparently, I get to hang out in a special Slack channel forever.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, you get to hang out.
\n\nJOSH: Which is nice.
\n\nLINDSEY: Exactly. You can't get rid of us just yet.
\n\nJOSH: Good. I wouldn't want to.
\n\nLINDSEY: All right. Thanks, y'all. And thanks, everyone, for tuning in.
Special Guests: Jordyn Bonds and Josh Herzig-Marx .
","summary":"Josh Herzig-Marx, founder of Knect, discusses the latest developments in his startup journey since his last appearance on the show. He emphasizes the program's value in helping founders like himself refine ideas and strategies. He particularly notes the program's effectiveness in addressing challenges unique to startups, such as managing professional networks and dealing with the rapid growth of online presence.\r\n\r\nThe conversation also delves into AI's technical aspects and potential applications and the practicalities and ethical considerations of using it in professional networking. Josh and Jordyn explore various AI use cases, distinguishing between beneficial applications and those they deem undesirable.","date_published":"2024-01-16T00:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/58e20919-712f-47e0-8cd0-023ad905707f.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":43284283,"duration_in_seconds":2303}]},{"id":"9d66b23f-8306-4c3b-8d28-cafd34df7676","title":"507: Scaling New Heights: Innovating in Software Development with Merico's Founders Henry Yin and Maxim Wheatley","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/507","content_text":"In this episode of the \"Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots\" podcast, host Victoria Guido delves into the intersection of technology, product development, and personal passions with her guests Henry Yin, Co-Founder and CTO of Merico, and Maxim Wheatley, the company's first employee and Community Leader. They are joined by Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot, as a special guest co-host. The conversation begins with a casual exchange about rock climbing, revealing that both Henry and Victoria share this hobby, which provides a unique perspective on their professional roles in software development.\n\nThroughout the podcast, Henry and Maxim discuss the journey and evolution of Merico, a company specializing in data-driven tools for developers. They explore the early stages of Merico, highlighting the challenges and surprises encountered while seeking product-market fit and the strategic pivot from focusing on open-source funding allocation to developing a comprehensive engineering metric platform. This shift in focus led to the creation of Apache DevLake, an open-source project contributed to by Merico and later donated to the Apache Software Foundation, reflecting the company's commitment to transparency and community-driven development.\n\nThe episode also touches on future challenges and opportunities in the field of software engineering, particularly the integration of AI and machine learning tools in the development process. Henry and Maxim emphasize the potential of AI to enhance developer productivity and the importance of data-driven insights in improving team collaboration and software delivery performance. Joe contributes to the discussion with his own experiences and perspectives, particularly on the importance of process over individual metrics in team management. \n\n\nMerico\nFollow Merico on GitHub, Linkedin, or X.\nApache DevLake\nFollow Henry Yin on LinkedIn.\nFollow Maxim Wheatley on LinkedIn or X.\nFollow thoughtbot on X or LinkedIn.\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Henry Yin, Co-Founder and CTO of Merico, and Maxim Wheatley, the first employee and Community Leader of Merico, creating data-driven developer tools for forward-thinking devs. Thank you for joining us.\n\nHENRY: Thanks for having us.\n\nMAXIM: Glad to be here, Victoria. Thank you. \n\nVICTORIA: And we also have a special guest co-host today, the CTO of thoughtbot, Joe Ferris. \n\nJOE: Hello. \n\nVICTORIA: Okay. All right. So, I met Henry and Maxim at the 7CTOs Conference in San Diego back in November. And I understand that Henry, you are also an avid rock climber. \n\nHENRY: Yes. I know you were also in Vegas during Thanksgiving. And I sort of have [inaudible 00:49] of a tradition to go to Vegas every Thanksgiving to Red Rock National Park. Yeah, I'd love to know more about how was your trip to Vegas this Thanksgiving.\n\nVICTORIA: Yes. I got to go to Vegas as well. We had a bit of rain, actually. So, we try not to climb on sandstone after the rain and ended up doing some sport climbing on limestone around the Blue Diamond Valley area; a little bit light on climbing for me, actually, but still beautiful out there. I loved being in Red Rock Canyon outside of Las Vegas. \n\nAnd I do find that there's just a lot of developers and engineers who have an affinity for climbing. I'm not sure what exactly that connection is. But I know, Joe, you also have a little bit of climbing and mountaineering experience, right? \n\nJOE: Yeah. I used to climb a good deal. I actually went climbing for the first time in, like, three years this past weekend, and it was truly pathetic. But you have to [laughs] start somewhere.\n\nVICTORIA: That's right. And, Henry, how long have you been climbing for?\n\nHENRY: For about five years. I like to spend my time in nature when I'm not working: hiking, climbing, skiing, scuba diving, all of the good outdoor activities.\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. And I understand you were bouldering in Vegas, right? Did you go to Kraft Boulders?\n\nHENRY: Yeah, we went to Kraft also Red Spring. It was a surprise for me. I was able to upgrade my outdoor bouldering grade to B7 this year at Red Spring and Monkey Wrench. There was always some surprises for me. When I went to Red Rock National Park last year, I met Alex Honnold there who was shooting a documentary, and he was really, really friendly. So, really enjoying every Thanksgiving trip to Vegas. \n\nVICTORIA: That's awesome. Yeah, well, congratulations on B7. That's great. It's always good to get a new grade. And I'm kind of in the same boat with Joe, where I'm just constantly restarting my climbing career. So [laughs], I haven't had a chance to push a grade like that in a little while. But that sounds like a lot of fun. \n\nHENRY: Yeah, it's really hard to be consistent on climbing when you have, like, a full-time job, and then there's so much going on in life. It's always a challenge.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. But a great way to like, connect with other people, and make friends, and spend time outdoors. So, I still really appreciate it, even if I'm not maybe progressing as much as I could be. That's wonderful. So, tell me, how did you and Maxim actually meet? Did you meet through climbing or the outdoors?\n\nMAXIM: We actually met through AngelList, which I really recommend to anyone who's really looking to get into startups. When Henry and I met, Merico was essentially just starting. I had this eagerness to explore something really early stage where I'd get to do all of the interesting kind of cross-functional things that come with that territory, touching on product and marketing, on fundraising, kind of being a bit of everything. And I was eager to look into something that was applying, you know, machine learning, data analytics in some really practical way. \n\nAnd I came across what Hezheng Henry and the team were doing in terms of just extracting useful insights from codebases. And we ended up connecting really well. And I think the previous experience I had was a good fit for the team, and the rest was history. And we've had a great time building together for the last five years.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And tell me a little bit more about your background and what you've been bringing to the Merico team.\n\nMAXIM: I think, like a lot of people in startups, consider myself a member of the Island of Misfit Toys in the sense that no kind of clear-cut linear pathway through my journey but a really exciting and productive one nonetheless. So, I began studying neuroscience at Georgetown University in Washington, D.C. I was about to go to medical school and, in my high school years had explored entrepreneurship in a really basic way. I think, like many people do, finding ways to monetize my hobbies and really kind of getting infected with that bug that I could create something, make money from it, and kind of be the master of my own destiny, for lack of less cliché terms. \n\nSo, not long after graduating, I started my first job that recruited me into a seed-stage venture capital, and from there, I had the opportunity to help early-stage startups, invest in them. I was managing a startup accelerator out there. From there, produced a documentary that followed those startups. Not long after all of that, I ended up co-founding a consumer electronics company where I was leading product, so doing lots of mechanical, electrical, and a bit of software engineering. \n\nAnd without taking too long, those were certainly kind of two of the more formative things. But one way or another, I've spent my whole career now in startups and, especially early-stage ones. It was something I was eager to do was kind of take some of the high-level abstract science that I had learned in my undergraduate and kind of apply some of those frameworks to some of the things that I do today. \n\nVICTORIA: That's super interesting. And now I'm curious about you, Henry, and your background. And what led you to get the idea for Merico?\n\nHENRY: Yeah. My professional career is actually much simpler because Merico was my first company and my first job. Before Merico, I was a PhD student at UC Berkeley studying computer science. My research was an intersection of software engineering and machine learning. And back then, we were tackling this research problem of how do we fairly measure the developer contributions in a software project? \n\nAnd the reason we are interested in this project has to do with the open-source funding problem. So, let's say an open-source project gets 100k donations from Google. How does the maintainers can automatically distribute all of the donations to sometimes hundreds or thousands of contributors according to their varying level of contributions? So, that was the problem we were interested in. We did research on this for about a year. We published a paper. And later on, you know, we started the company with my, you know, co-authors. And that's how the story began for Merico.\n\nVICTORIA: I really love that. And maybe you could tell me just a little bit more about what Merico is and why a company may be interested in trying out your services.\n\nHENRY: The product we're currently offering actually is a little bit different from what we set out to build. At the very beginning, we were building this platform for open-source funding problem that we can give an open-source project. We can automatically, using algorithm, measure developer contributions and automatically distribute donations to all developers. But then we encountered some technical and business challenges. \n\nSo, we took out the metrics component from the previous idea and launched this new product in the engineering metric space. And this time, we focus on helping engineering leaders better understand the health of their engineering work. So, this is the Merico analytics platform that we're currently offering to software engineering teams.\n\nJOE: It's interesting. I've seen some products that try to judge the health of a codebase, but it sounds like this is more trying to judge the health of the team.\n\nMAXIM: Yeah, I think that's generally fair to say. As we've evolved, we've certainly liked to describe ourselves as, you know, I think a lot of people are familiar with observability tools, which help ultimately ascertain, like, the performance of the technology, right? Like, it's assessing, visualizing, chopping up the machine-generated data. And we thought there would be a tremendous amount of value in being, essentially, observability for the human-generated data. \n\nAnd I think, ultimately, what we found on our journey is that there's a tremendous amount of frustration, especially in larger teams, not in looking to use a tool like that for any kind of, like, policing type thing, right? Like, no one's looking if they're doing it right, at least looking to figure out, like, oh, who's underperforming, or who do we need to yell at? But really trying to figure out, like, where are the strengths? Like, how can we improve our processes? How can we make sure we're delivering better software more reliably, more sustainably? Like how are we balancing that trade-off between new features, upgrades and managing tech debt and bugs?\n\nWe've ultimately just worked tirelessly to, hopefully, fill in those blind spots for people. And so far, I'm pleased to say that the reception has been really positive. We've, I think, tapped into a somewhat subtle but nonetheless really important pain point for a lot of teams around the world.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And, Henry, you said that you started it based on some of the research that you did at UC Berkeley. I also understand you leaned on the research from the DevOps research from DORA. Can you tell me a little bit more about that and what you found insightful from the research that was out there and already existed? \n\nMAXIM: So, I think what's really funny, and it really speaks to, I think, the importance in product development of just getting out there and speaking with your potential users or actual users, and despite all of the deep, deep research we had done on the topic of understanding engineering, we really hadn't touched on DORA too much. And this is probably going back about five years now. \n\nHenry and I were taking a customer meeting with an engineering leader at Yahoo out in the Bay Area. He kind of revealed this to us basically where he's like, \"Oh, you guys should really look at incorporating DORA into this thing. Like, all of the metrics, all of the analytics you're building super cool, super interesting, but DORA really has this great framework, and you guys should look into it.\" \n\nAnd in hindsight, I think we can now [chuckles], honestly, admit to ourselves, even if it maybe was a bit embarrassing at the time where both Henry and I were like, \"What? What is that? Like, what's Dora?\" And we ended up looking into it and since then, have really become evangelists for the framework. And I'll pass it to Henry to talk about, like, what that journey has looked like.\n\nHENRY: Thanks, Maxim. I think what's cool about DORA is in terms of using metrics, there's always this challenge called Goodhart's Law, right? So, whenever a metric becomes a target, the metric cease to be a good metric because people are going to find ways to game the metric. So, I think what's cool about DORA is that it actually offers not just one metric but four key metrics that bring balance to covering both the stability and velocity. \n\nSo, when you look at DORA metrics, you can't just optimize for velocity and sacrificing your stability. But you have to look at all four metrics at the same time, and that's harder to game. So, I think that's why it's become more and more popular in the industry as the starting point for using metrics for data-driven engineering. \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And I like how DORA also represents it as the metrics and how they apply to where you are in the lifecycle of your product. So, I'm curious: with Merico, what kind of insights do you think engineering leaders can gain from having this data that will unlock some of their team's potential?\n\nMAXIM: So, I think one of the most foundational things before we get into any detailed metrics is I think it's more important than ever, especially given that so many of us are remote, right? Where the general processes of software engineering are generally difficult to understand, right? They're nuanced. They tend to kind of happen in relative isolation until a PR is reviewed and merged. And it can be challenging, of course, to understand what's being done, how consistently, how well, like, where are the good parts, where are the bad parts. And I think that problem gets really exasperated, especially in a remote setting where no one is necessarily in the same place. \n\nSo, on a foundational level, I think we've really worked hard to solve that challenge, where just being able to see, like, how are we doing? And to that point, I think what we've found before anyone even dives too deep into all of the insights that we can deliver, I think there's a tremendous amount of appetite for anyone who's looking to get into that practice of constant improvement and figuring out how to level up the work they're doing, just setting close benchmarks, figuring out, like, okay, when we talk about more nebulous or maybe subjective terms like speed, or quality, what does good look like? What does consistent look like? \n\nBeing able to just tie those things to something that really kind of unifies the vocabulary is something I always like to say, where, okay, now, even if we're not focused on a specific metric, or we don't have a really particular goal in mind that we want to assess, now we're at least starting the conversation as a team from a place where when we talk about quality, we have something that's shared between us. We understand what we're referring to. And when we're talking about speed, we can also have something consistent to talk about there. \n\nAnd within all of that, I think one of the most powerful things is it helps to really kind of ground the conversations around the trade-offs, right? There's always that common saying: the triangle of trade-offs is where it's, like, you can have it cheap; you can have it fast, and you can have it good, but you can only have two. And I think with DORA, with all of these different frameworks with many metrics, it helps to really solidify what those trade-offs look like. And that's, for me at least, been one of the most impactful things to watch: is our global users have really started evolving their practices with it.\n\nHENRY: Yeah. And I want to add to Maxim's answer. But before that, I just want to quickly mention how our products are structured. So, Merico actually has an open-source component and a proprietary component. So, the open-source component is called Apache DevLake. It's an open-source project we created first within Merico and later on donated to Apache Software Foundation. And now, it's one of the most popular engineering metrics tool out there. \n\nAnd then, on top of that, we built a SaaS offering called DevInsight Cloud, which is powered by Apache DevLake. So, with DevLake, the open-source project, you can set up your data connections, connect DevLake to all of the dev tools you're using, and then we collect data. And then we provide many different flavors of dashboards for our users. \n\nAnd many of those dashboards are structured, and there are different questions engineering teams might want to ask. For example, like, how fast are we responding to our customer requirement? For that question, we will look at like, metrics like change lead time, or, like, for a question, how accurate is our planning for the sprint? In that case, the dashboard will show metrics relating to the percentage of issues we can deliver for every sprint for our plan. So, that's sort of, you know, based on the questions that the team wants to answer, we provide different dashboards that help them extract insights using the data from their DevOps tools.\n\nJOE: It's really interesting you donated it to Apache. And I feel like the hybrid SaaS open-source model is really common. And I've become more and more skeptical of it over the years as companies start out open source, and then once they start getting competitors, they change the license. But by donating it to Apache, you sort of sidestep that potential trust issue.\n\nMAXIM: Yeah, you've hit the nail on the head with that one because, in many ways, for us, engaging with Apache in the way that we have was, I think, ultimately born out of the observations we had about the shortcomings of other products in the space where, for one, very practical. We realized quickly that if we wanted to offer the most complete visibility possible, it would require connections to so many different products, right? \n\nI think anyone can look at their engineering toolchain and identify perhaps 7, 9, 10 different things they're using on a day-to-day basis. Oftentimes, those aren't shared between companies, too. So, I think part one was just figuring out like, okay, how do we build a framework that makes it easy for developers to build a plugin and contribute to the project if there's something they want to incorporate that isn't already supported? And I think that was kind of part one. \n\nPart two is, I think, much more important and far more profound, which is developer trust, right? Where we saw so many different products out there that claimed to deliver these insights but really had this kind of black-box approach, right? Where data goes in, something happens, insights come out. How's it doing that? How's it weighting things? What's it calculating? What variables are incorporated? All of that is a mystery. And that really leads to developers, rightfully, not having a basis to trust what's actually being shown to them. \n\nSo, for us, it was this perspective of what's the maximum amount of transparency that we could possibly offer? Well, open source is probably the best answer to that question. We made sure the entirety of the codebase is something they can take a look at, they can modify. They can dive into the underlying queries and algorithms and how everything is working to gain a total sense of trust in how is this thing working? And if I need to modify something to account for some nuanced details of how our team works, we can also do that. \n\nAnd to your point, you know, I think it's definitely something I would agree with that one of the worst things we see in the open-source community is that companies will be kind of open source in name only, right? Where it's really more of marketing or kind of sales thing than anything, where it's like, oh, let's tap into the good faith of open source. But really, somehow or another, through bait and switch, through partial open source, through license changes, whatever it is, we're open source in name only but really, a proprietary, closed-source product. \n\nSo, for us, donating the core of DevLake to the Apache Foundation was essentially our way of really, like, putting, you know, walking the talk, right? Where no one can doubt at this point, like, oh, is this thing suddenly going to have the license changed? Is this suddenly going to go closed-source? Like, the answer to that now is a definitive no because it is now part of that ecosystem. \n\nAnd I think with the aspirations we've had to build something that is not just a tool but, hopefully, long-term becomes, like, foundational technology, I think that gives people confidence and faith that this is something they can really invest in. They can really plumb into their processes in a deep and meaningful way with no concerns whatsoever that something is suddenly going to change that makes all of that work, you know, something that they didn't expect.\n\nJOE: I think a lot of companies guard their source code like it's their secret sauce, but my experience has been more that it's the secret shame [laughs].\n\nHENRY: [laughs]\n\nMAXIM: There's no doubt in my role with, especially our open-source product driving our community we've really seen the magic of what a community-driven product can be. And open source, I think, is the most kind of a true expression of a community-driven product, where we have a Slack community with nearly 1,000 developers in it now. Naturally, right? Some of those developers are in there just to ask questions and answer questions. Some are intensely involved, right? They're suggesting improvements. They're suggesting new features. They're finding ways to refine things. \n\nAnd it really is that, like, fantastic culture that I'm really proud that we've cultivated where best idea ships, right? If you've got a good idea, throw it into a GitHub issue or a comment. Let's see how the community responds to it. Let's see if someone wants to pick it up. Let's see if someone wants to submit a PR. If it's good, it goes into production, and then the entire community benefits. And, for me, that's something I've found endlessly exciting. \n\nHENRY: Yeah. I think Joe made a really good point on the secret sauce part because I don't think the source code is our secret sauce. There's no rocket science in DevLake. If we break it down, it's really just some UI UX plus data pipelines. I think what's making DevLake successful is really the trust and collaboration that we're building with the open-source community. When it comes to trust, I think there are two aspects. First of all, trust on the metric accuracy, right? Because with a lot of proprietary software, you don't know how they are calculating the metrics. If people don't know how the metrics are calculated, they can't really trust it and use it. \n\nAnd secondly, is the trust that they can always use this software, and there's no vendor lock-in. And when it comes to collaboration, we were seeing many of our data sources and dashboards they were contributed not by our core developers but by the community. And the communities really, you know, bring in their insights and their use cases into DevLake and make DevLake, you know, more successful and more applicable to more teams in different areas of soft engineering.\n\nMID-ROLL AD:\n\nAre you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you’re tight on time and investment, which is why we’ve created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product’s next steps.\n\nOver four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success.\n\nFind out how we can help you move the needle at tbot.io/entrepreneurs.\n\nVICTORIA: I understand you've taken some innovative approaches on using AI in your open-source repositories to respond to issues and questions from your developers. So, can you tell me a little bit more about that?\n\nHENRY: Absolutely. I self-identify as a builder. And one characteristic of builder is to always chase after the dream of building infinite things within the finite lifespan. So, I was always thinking about how we can be more productive, how we can, you know, get better at getting better. And so, this year, you know, AI is huge, and there are so many AI-powered tools that can help us achieve more in terms of delivering software. \n\nAnd then, internally, we had a hackathon, and there's one project, which is an AI-powered coding assistant coming out of it called DevChat. And we have made it public at devchat.ai. But we've been closely following, you know, what are the other AI-powered tools that can make, you know, software developers' or open-source maintainers' lives easier? And we've been observing that there are more and more open-source projects adopting AI chatbots to help them handle, you know, respond to GitHub issues. \n\nSo, I recently did a case study on a pretty popular open-source project called LangChain. So, it's the hot kid right now in the AI space right now. And it's using a chatbot called Dosu to help respond to issues. I had some interesting findings from the case study.\n\nVICTORIA: In what ways was that chatbot really helpful, and in what ways did it not really work that well?\n\nHENRY: Yeah, I was thinking of how to measure the effectiveness of that chatbot. And I realized that there is a feature that's built in GitHub, which is the reaction to comment. So, how the chatbot works is whenever there is a new issue, the chatbot would basically retrieval-augmented generation pipeline and then using ORM to generate a response to the issue. And then there's people leave reactions to that comment by the chatbot, but mostly, it's thumbs up and thumbs down. \n\nSo, what I did is I collect all of the issues from the LangChain repository and look at how many thumbs up and thumbs down Dosu chatbot got, you know, from all of the comments they left with the issues. So, what I found is that over across 2,600 issues that Dosu chatbot helped with, it got around 900 thumbs ups and 1,300 thumbs down. So, then it comes to how do we interpret this data, right? Because it got more thumbs down than thumbs up doesn't mean that it's actually not useful or harmful to the developers. \n\nSo, to answer that question, I actually looked at some examples of thumbs-up and thumb-down comments. And what I found is the thumb down doesn't mean that the chatbot is harmful. It's mostly the developers are signaling to the open-source maintainers that your chatbot is not helping in this case, and we need human intervention. But with the thumbs up, the chatbot is actually helping a lot. \n\nThere's one issue where people post a question, and the chatbot just wrote the code and then basically made a suggestion on how to resolve the issue. And the human response is, \"Damn, it worked.\" And that was very surprising to me, and it made me consider, you know, adopting similar technology and AI-powered tools for our own open-source project.\n\nVICTORIA: That's very cool. Well, I want to go back to the beginning of Merico. And when you first got started, and you were trying to understand your customers and what they need, was there anything surprising in that early discovery process that made you change your strategy? \n\nHENRY: So, one challenge we faced when we first explored open-source funding allocation problem space is that our algorithm looks at the Git repository. But with software engineering, especially with open-source collaboration, there are so many activities that are happening outside of open-source repos on GitHub. For example, I might be an evangelist, and my day-to-day work might be, you know, engaging in community work, talking about the open-source project conference. And all of those things were not captured by our algorithm, which was only looking at the GitHub repository at the time. So, that was one of the technical challenge that we faced and led us to switch over to more of the system-driven metrics side.\n\nVICTORIA: Gotcha. Over the years, how has Merico grown? What has changed between when you first started and today?\n\nHENRY: So, one thing is the team size. When we just got started, we only have, you know, the three co-founders and Maxim. And now we have grown to a team of 70 team members, and we have a fully distributed team across multiple continents. So, that's pretty interesting dynamics to handle. And we learned a lot of how to build effective team and a cohesive team along the way. \n\nAnd in terms of product, DevLake now, you know, has more than 900 developers in our Slack community, and we track over 360 companies using DevLake. So, definitely, went a long way since we started the journey. And yeah, tomorrow we...actually, Maxim and I are going to host our end-of-year Apache DevLake Community Meetup and featuring Nathen Harvey, the Google's DORA team lead. Yeah, definitely made some progress since we've been working on Merico for four years.\n\nVICTORIA: Well, that's exciting. Well, say hi to Nathen for me. I helped takeover DevOps DC with some of the other organizers that he was running way back in the day, so [laughs] that's great. What challenges do you see on the horizon for Merico and DevLake?\n\nMAXIM: One of the challenges I think about a lot, and I think it's front of mind for many people, especially with software engineering, but at this point, nearly every profession, is what does AI mean for everything we're doing? What does the future look like where developers are maybe producing the majority of their code through prompt-based approaches versus code-based approaches, right? How do we start thinking about how we coherently assess that? \n\nLike, how do you maybe redefine what the value is when there's a scenario where perhaps all coders, you know, if we maybe fast forward a few years, like, what if the AI is so good that the code is essentially perfect? What does success look like then? How do you start thinking about what is a good team if everyone is shooting out 9 out of 10 PRs nearly every time because they're all using a unified framework supported by AI? So, I think that's certainly kind of one of the challenges I envision in the future.\n\nI think, really, practically, too, many startups have been contending with the macroclimate within the fundraising climates. You know, I think many of the companies out there, us included, had better conditions in 2019, 2020 to raise funds at more favorable valuations, perhaps more relaxed terms, given the climate of the public markets and, you know, monetary policy. I think that's, obviously, we're all experiencing and has tightened things up like revenue expectations or now higher kind of expectations on getting into a highly profitable place or, you know, the benchmark is set a lot higher there. \n\nSo, I think it's not a challenge that's unique to us in any way at all. I think it's true for almost every company that's out there. It's now kind of thinking in a more disciplined way about how do you kind of meet the market demands without compromising on the product vision and without compromising on the roadmap and the strategies that you've put in place that are working but are maybe coming under a little bit more pressure, given kind of the new set of rules that have been laid out for all of us?\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that is going to be a challenge. And do you see the company and the product solving some of those challenges in a unique way?\n\nHENRY: I've been thinking about how AI can fulfill the promise of making developers 10x developer. I'm an early adopter and big fan of GitHub Copilot. I think it really helps with writing, like, the boilerplate code. But I think it's improving maybe my productivity by 20% to 30%. It's still pretty far away from 10x. So, I'm thinking how Merico's solutions can help fill the gap a little bit. \n\nIn terms of Apache DevLake and its SaaS offering, I think we are helping with, like, the team collaboration and measuring, like, software delivery performance, how can the team improve as a whole. And then, recently, we had a spin-off, which is the AI-powered coding assistant DevChat. And that's sort of more on the empowering individual developers with, like, testing, refactoring these common workflows. \n\nAnd one big thing for us in the future is how we can combine these two components, you know, team collaboration and improvement tool, DevLake, with the individual coding assistant, DevChat, how they can be integrated together to empower developers. I think that's the big question for Merico ahead.\n\nJOE: Have you used Merico to judge the contributions of AI to a project?\n\nHENRY: [laughs] So, actually, after we pivot to engineering metrics, we focus now less on individual contribution because that sometimes can be counterproductive. Because whenever you visualize that, then people will sometimes become defensive and try to optimize for the metrics that measure individual contributions. So, we sort of...nowadays, we no longer offer that kind of metrics within DevLake, if that makes sense. \n\nMAXIM: And that kind of goes back to one of Victoria's earlier questions about, like, what surprised us in the journey. Early on, we had this very benevolent perspective, you know, I would want to kind of underline that, that we never sought to be judging individuals in a negative way. We were looking to find ways to make it useful, even to a point of finding ways...like, we explored different ways to give developers badges and different kind of accomplishment milestones, like, things to kind of signal their strengths and accomplishments. \n\nBut I think what we've found in that journey is that...and I would really kind of say this strongly. I think the only way that metrics of any kind serve an organization is when they support a healthy culture. And to that end, what we found is that we always like to preach, like, it's processes, not people. It's figuring out if you're hiring correctly, if you're making smart decisions about who's on the team. I think you have to operate with a default assumption within reason that those people are doing their best work. They're trying to move the company forward. They're trying to make good decisions to better serve the customers, better serve the company and the product. \n\nWith that in mind, what you're really looking to do is figure out what is happening within the underlying processes that get something from thought to production. And how do you clear the way for people? And I think that's really been a big kind of, you know, almost like a tectonic shift for our company over the years is really kind of fully transitioning to that. And I think, in some ways, DORA has represented kind of almost, like, a best practice for, like, processes over people, right? \n\nIt's figuring out between quality and speed; how are you doing? Where are those trade-offs? And then, within the processes that account for those outcomes, how can you really be improving things? So, I would say, for us, that's, like, been kind of the number one thing there is figuring out, like, how do we keep doubling down on processes, not people? And how do we really make sure that we're not just telling people that we're on their side and we're taking a, you know, a very humanistic perspective on wanting to improve the lives of people but actually doing it with the product?\n\nHENRY: But putting the challenge on measuring individual contributions aside, I'm as curious as Joe about AI's role in software engineering. I expect to see more and more involvement of AI and gradually, you know, replacing low-level and medium-level and, in the future, even high-level tasks for humans so we can just focus on, like, the objective instead of the implementation.\n\nVICTORIA: I can imagine, especially if you're starting to integrate AI tools into your systems and if you're growing your company at scale, some of the ability to have a natural intuition about what's going on it really becomes a challenge, and the data that you can derive from some of these products could help you make better decisions and all different types of things. \n\nSo, I'm kind of curious to hear from Joe; with your history of open-source contribution and being a part of many different development teams, what kind of information do you wish that you had to help you make decisions in your role? \n\nJOE: Yeah, that's an interesting question. I've used some tools that try to identify problem spots in the code. But it'd be interesting to see the results of tools that analyze problem spots in the process. Like, I'd like to learn more about how that works.\n\nHENRY: I'm curious; one question for Joe. What is your favorite non-AI-powered code scanning tool that you find useful for yourself or for your team?\n\nJOE: I think the most common static analysis tool I use is something to find the Git churn in a repository. Some of this probably is because I've worked mostly on projects these days with dynamic languages. So, there's kind of a limit to how much static analysis you can do of, you know, a Ruby or a Python codebase. But just by analyzing which parts of the application changed the most, help you find which parts are likely to be the buggiest and the most complex. \n\nI think every application tends to involve some central model. Like, if you're making an e-commerce site, then probably products are going to have a lot of the core logic, purchases will have a lot of the core logic. And identifying those centers of gravity just through the Git statistics has helped me find places that need to be reworked.\n\nHENRY: That's really interesting. Is it something like a hotspot analysis? And when you find a hotspot, then would you invest more resources in, like, refactoring the hotspot to make it more maintainable?\n\nJOE: Right, exactly. Like, you can use the statistics to see which files you should look at. And then, usually, when you actually go into the files, especially if you look at some of the changes to the files, it's pretty clear that it's become, you know, for example, a class has become too large, something has become too tightly coupled. \n\nHENRY: Gotcha.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And so, if you could go back in time, five years ago and give yourself some advice when you first started along this journey, what advice would you give yourself?\n\nMAXIM: I'll answer the question in two ways: first for the company and then for myself personally. I think for the company, what I would say is, especially when you're in that kind of pre-product market fit space, and you're maybe struggling to figure out how to solve a challenge that really matters, I think you need to really think carefully about, like, how would you yourself be using your product? And if you're finding reasons, you wouldn't, like, really, really pay careful attention to those. \n\nAnd I think, for us, like, early on in our journey, we ultimately kind of found ourselves asking, we're like, okay, we're a smaller earlier stage team. Perhaps, like, small improvements in productivity or quality aren't going to necessarily move the needle. That's one of the reasons maybe we're not using this. Maybe our developers are already at bandwidth. So, it's not a question of unlocking more bandwidth or figuring out where there's kind of weak points or bottlenecks at that level, but maybe how can we dial in our own processes to let the whole team function more effectively.\n\nAnd I think, for us, like, the more we started thinking through that lens of, like, what's useful to us, like, what's solving a pain point for us, I think, in many ways, DevLake was born out of that exact thinking. And now DevLake is used by hundreds of companies around the world and has, you know, this near thousand developer community that supports it. And I think that's testament to the power of that. \n\nFor me, personally, if I were to kind of go back five years, you know, I'm grateful to say there isn't a whole lot I would necessarily change. But I think if there's anything that I would, it would just to be consistently more brave in sharing ideas, right? I think Merico has done a great job, and it's something I'm so proud of for us as a team of really embracing new ideas and really kind of making sure, like, best idea ships, right? There isn't a title. There isn't a level of seniority that determines whether or not someone has a right to suggest something or improve something. \n\nAnd I think with that in mind, for me as a technical person but not a member of technical staff, so to speak, I think there was many occasions, for me personally, where I felt like, okay, maybe because of that, I shouldn't necessarily weigh in on certain things. And I think what I've found, and it's a trust-building thing as well, is, like, even if you're wrong, even if your suggestion may be misunderstands something or isn't quite on target, there's still a tremendous amount of value in just being able to share a perspective and share a recommendation and push it out there.\n\nAnd I think with that in mind, like, it's something I would encourage myself and encourage everybody else in a healthy company to feel comfortable to just keep sharing because, ultimately, it's an accuracy-by-volume game to a certain degree, right? Where if I come up with one idea, then I've got one swing at the bat. But if us as a collective come up with 100 ideas that we consider intelligently, we've got a much higher chance of maybe a handful of those really pushing us forward. So, for me, that would be advice I would give myself and to anybody else.\n\nHENRY: I'll follow the same structure, so I'll start by the advice in terms of company and advice to myself as an individual. So, for a company level, I think my advice would be fail fast because every company needs to go through this exploration phase trying to find their product-market fit, and then they will have to test, you know, a couple of ideas before they find the right fit for themselves, the same for us. And I wish that we actually had more in terms of structure in exploring these ideas and set deadlines, you know, set milestones for us to quickly test and filter out bad ideas and then accelerate the exploration process. So, fail fast would be my suggestion at the company level.\n\nFrom an individual level, I would say it's more adapting to my CTO role because when I started the company, I still had that, you know, graduate student hustle mindset. I love writing code myself. And it's okay if I spent 100% of my time writing code when the company was, you know, at five people, right? But it's not okay [chuckles] when we have, you know, a team of 40 engineers. So, I wish I had that realization earlier, and I transitioned to a real CTO role earlier, focusing more, like, on technical evangelism or building out the technical and non-technical infrastructure to help my engineering teams be successful.\n\nVICTORIA: Well, I really appreciate that. And is there anything else that you all would like to promote today? \n\nHENRY: So if you're, you know, engineering leaders who are looking to measure, you know, some metrics and adopt a more data-driven approach to improving your software delivery performance, check out Apache DevLake. It's open-source project, free to use, and it has some great dashboards, support, various data resources. And join our community. We have a pretty vibrant community on Slack. And there are a lot of developers and engineering leaders discussing how they can get more value out of data and metrics and improve software delivery performance. \n\nMAXIM: Yeah. And I think to add to that, something I think we've found consistently is there's plenty of data skeptics out there, rightfully so. I think a lot of analytics of every kind are really not very good, right? And so, I think people are rightfully frustrated or even traumatized by them. \n\nAnd for the data skeptics out there, I would invite them to dive into the DevLake community and pose your challenges, right? If you think this stuff doesn't make sense or you have concerns about it, come join the conversation because I think that's really where the most productive discussions end up coming from is not from people mutually high-fiving each other for a successful implementation of DORA. \n\nBut the really exciting moments come from the people in the community who are challenging it and saying like, \"You know what? Like, here's where I don't necessarily think something is useful or I think could be improved.\" And it's something that's not up to us as individuals to either bless or to deny. That's where the community gets really exciting is those discussions. So, I would say, if you're a data skeptic, come and dive in, and so long as you're respectful, challenge it. And by doing so, you'll hopefully not only help yourself but really help everybody, which is what I love about this stuff so much. \n\nJOE: I'm curious, does Merico use Merico? \n\nHENRY: Yes. We've been dogfooding ourself a lot. And a lot of the product improvement ideas actually come from our own dogfooding process. For example, there was one time that we look at a dashboard that has this issue change lead time. And then we found our issue, change lead time, you know, went up in the past few month. And then, we were trying to interpret whether that's a good thing or a bad thing because just looking at a single metric doesn't tell us the story behind the change in the metrics. So, we actually improved the dashboard to include some, you know, covariates of the metrics, some other related metrics to help explain the trend of the metric. So yeah, dogfooding is always useful in improving product.\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. Well, thank you all so much for joining. I really enjoyed our conversation. \n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.\n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.Sponsored By:thoughtbot: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you’re tight on time and investment, which is why we’ve created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product’s next steps.\r\n\r\nOver four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success.\r\n\r\nFind out how we can help you move the needle at: tbot.io/entrepreneurs","content_html":"In this episode of the "Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots" podcast, host Victoria Guido delves into the intersection of technology, product development, and personal passions with her guests Henry Yin, Co-Founder and CTO of Merico, and Maxim Wheatley, the company's first employee and Community Leader. They are joined by Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot, as a special guest co-host. The conversation begins with a casual exchange about rock climbing, revealing that both Henry and Victoria share this hobby, which provides a unique perspective on their professional roles in software development.
\n\nThroughout the podcast, Henry and Maxim discuss the journey and evolution of Merico, a company specializing in data-driven tools for developers. They explore the early stages of Merico, highlighting the challenges and surprises encountered while seeking product-market fit and the strategic pivot from focusing on open-source funding allocation to developing a comprehensive engineering metric platform. This shift in focus led to the creation of Apache DevLake, an open-source project contributed to by Merico and later donated to the Apache Software Foundation, reflecting the company's commitment to transparency and community-driven development.
\n\nThe episode also touches on future challenges and opportunities in the field of software engineering, particularly the integration of AI and machine learning tools in the development process. Henry and Maxim emphasize the potential of AI to enhance developer productivity and the importance of data-driven insights in improving team collaboration and software delivery performance. Joe contributes to the discussion with his own experiences and perspectives, particularly on the importance of process over individual metrics in team management.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Henry Yin, Co-Founder and CTO of Merico, and Maxim Wheatley, the first employee and Community Leader of Merico, creating data-driven developer tools for forward-thinking devs. Thank you for joining us.
\n\nHENRY: Thanks for having us.
\n\nMAXIM: Glad to be here, Victoria. Thank you.
\n\nVICTORIA: And we also have a special guest co-host today, the CTO of thoughtbot, Joe Ferris.
\n\nJOE: Hello.
\n\nVICTORIA: Okay. All right. So, I met Henry and Maxim at the 7CTOs Conference in San Diego back in November. And I understand that Henry, you are also an avid rock climber.
\n\nHENRY: Yes. I know you were also in Vegas during Thanksgiving. And I sort of have [inaudible 00:49] of a tradition to go to Vegas every Thanksgiving to Red Rock National Park. Yeah, I'd love to know more about how was your trip to Vegas this Thanksgiving.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes. I got to go to Vegas as well. We had a bit of rain, actually. So, we try not to climb on sandstone after the rain and ended up doing some sport climbing on limestone around the Blue Diamond Valley area; a little bit light on climbing for me, actually, but still beautiful out there. I loved being in Red Rock Canyon outside of Las Vegas.
\n\nAnd I do find that there's just a lot of developers and engineers who have an affinity for climbing. I'm not sure what exactly that connection is. But I know, Joe, you also have a little bit of climbing and mountaineering experience, right?
\n\nJOE: Yeah. I used to climb a good deal. I actually went climbing for the first time in, like, three years this past weekend, and it was truly pathetic. But you have to [laughs] start somewhere.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's right. And, Henry, how long have you been climbing for?
\n\nHENRY: For about five years. I like to spend my time in nature when I'm not working: hiking, climbing, skiing, scuba diving, all of the good outdoor activities.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. And I understand you were bouldering in Vegas, right? Did you go to Kraft Boulders?
\n\nHENRY: Yeah, we went to Kraft also Red Spring. It was a surprise for me. I was able to upgrade my outdoor bouldering grade to B7 this year at Red Spring and Monkey Wrench. There was always some surprises for me. When I went to Red Rock National Park last year, I met Alex Honnold there who was shooting a documentary, and he was really, really friendly. So, really enjoying every Thanksgiving trip to Vegas.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's awesome. Yeah, well, congratulations on B7. That's great. It's always good to get a new grade. And I'm kind of in the same boat with Joe, where I'm just constantly restarting my climbing career. So [laughs], I haven't had a chance to push a grade like that in a little while. But that sounds like a lot of fun.
\n\nHENRY: Yeah, it's really hard to be consistent on climbing when you have, like, a full-time job, and then there's so much going on in life. It's always a challenge.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. But a great way to like, connect with other people, and make friends, and spend time outdoors. So, I still really appreciate it, even if I'm not maybe progressing as much as I could be. That's wonderful. So, tell me, how did you and Maxim actually meet? Did you meet through climbing or the outdoors?
\n\nMAXIM: We actually met through AngelList, which I really recommend to anyone who's really looking to get into startups. When Henry and I met, Merico was essentially just starting. I had this eagerness to explore something really early stage where I'd get to do all of the interesting kind of cross-functional things that come with that territory, touching on product and marketing, on fundraising, kind of being a bit of everything. And I was eager to look into something that was applying, you know, machine learning, data analytics in some really practical way.
\n\nAnd I came across what Hezheng Henry and the team were doing in terms of just extracting useful insights from codebases. And we ended up connecting really well. And I think the previous experience I had was a good fit for the team, and the rest was history. And we've had a great time building together for the last five years.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And tell me a little bit more about your background and what you've been bringing to the Merico team.
\n\nMAXIM: I think, like a lot of people in startups, consider myself a member of the Island of Misfit Toys in the sense that no kind of clear-cut linear pathway through my journey but a really exciting and productive one nonetheless. So, I began studying neuroscience at Georgetown University in Washington, D.C. I was about to go to medical school and, in my high school years had explored entrepreneurship in a really basic way. I think, like many people do, finding ways to monetize my hobbies and really kind of getting infected with that bug that I could create something, make money from it, and kind of be the master of my own destiny, for lack of less cliché terms.
\n\nSo, not long after graduating, I started my first job that recruited me into a seed-stage venture capital, and from there, I had the opportunity to help early-stage startups, invest in them. I was managing a startup accelerator out there. From there, produced a documentary that followed those startups. Not long after all of that, I ended up co-founding a consumer electronics company where I was leading product, so doing lots of mechanical, electrical, and a bit of software engineering.
\n\nAnd without taking too long, those were certainly kind of two of the more formative things. But one way or another, I've spent my whole career now in startups and, especially early-stage ones. It was something I was eager to do was kind of take some of the high-level abstract science that I had learned in my undergraduate and kind of apply some of those frameworks to some of the things that I do today.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's super interesting. And now I'm curious about you, Henry, and your background. And what led you to get the idea for Merico?
\n\nHENRY: Yeah. My professional career is actually much simpler because Merico was my first company and my first job. Before Merico, I was a PhD student at UC Berkeley studying computer science. My research was an intersection of software engineering and machine learning. And back then, we were tackling this research problem of how do we fairly measure the developer contributions in a software project?
\n\nAnd the reason we are interested in this project has to do with the open-source funding problem. So, let's say an open-source project gets 100k donations from Google. How does the maintainers can automatically distribute all of the donations to sometimes hundreds or thousands of contributors according to their varying level of contributions? So, that was the problem we were interested in. We did research on this for about a year. We published a paper. And later on, you know, we started the company with my, you know, co-authors. And that's how the story began for Merico.
\n\nVICTORIA: I really love that. And maybe you could tell me just a little bit more about what Merico is and why a company may be interested in trying out your services.
\n\nHENRY: The product we're currently offering actually is a little bit different from what we set out to build. At the very beginning, we were building this platform for open-source funding problem that we can give an open-source project. We can automatically, using algorithm, measure developer contributions and automatically distribute donations to all developers. But then we encountered some technical and business challenges.
\n\nSo, we took out the metrics component from the previous idea and launched this new product in the engineering metric space. And this time, we focus on helping engineering leaders better understand the health of their engineering work. So, this is the Merico analytics platform that we're currently offering to software engineering teams.
\n\nJOE: It's interesting. I've seen some products that try to judge the health of a codebase, but it sounds like this is more trying to judge the health of the team.
\n\nMAXIM: Yeah, I think that's generally fair to say. As we've evolved, we've certainly liked to describe ourselves as, you know, I think a lot of people are familiar with observability tools, which help ultimately ascertain, like, the performance of the technology, right? Like, it's assessing, visualizing, chopping up the machine-generated data. And we thought there would be a tremendous amount of value in being, essentially, observability for the human-generated data.
\n\nAnd I think, ultimately, what we found on our journey is that there's a tremendous amount of frustration, especially in larger teams, not in looking to use a tool like that for any kind of, like, policing type thing, right? Like, no one's looking if they're doing it right, at least looking to figure out, like, oh, who's underperforming, or who do we need to yell at? But really trying to figure out, like, where are the strengths? Like, how can we improve our processes? How can we make sure we're delivering better software more reliably, more sustainably? Like how are we balancing that trade-off between new features, upgrades and managing tech debt and bugs?
\n\nWe've ultimately just worked tirelessly to, hopefully, fill in those blind spots for people. And so far, I'm pleased to say that the reception has been really positive. We've, I think, tapped into a somewhat subtle but nonetheless really important pain point for a lot of teams around the world.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And, Henry, you said that you started it based on some of the research that you did at UC Berkeley. I also understand you leaned on the research from the DevOps research from DORA. Can you tell me a little bit more about that and what you found insightful from the research that was out there and already existed?
\n\nMAXIM: So, I think what's really funny, and it really speaks to, I think, the importance in product development of just getting out there and speaking with your potential users or actual users, and despite all of the deep, deep research we had done on the topic of understanding engineering, we really hadn't touched on DORA too much. And this is probably going back about five years now.
\n\nHenry and I were taking a customer meeting with an engineering leader at Yahoo out in the Bay Area. He kind of revealed this to us basically where he's like, "Oh, you guys should really look at incorporating DORA into this thing. Like, all of the metrics, all of the analytics you're building super cool, super interesting, but DORA really has this great framework, and you guys should look into it."
\n\nAnd in hindsight, I think we can now [chuckles], honestly, admit to ourselves, even if it maybe was a bit embarrassing at the time where both Henry and I were like, "What? What is that? Like, what's Dora?" And we ended up looking into it and since then, have really become evangelists for the framework. And I'll pass it to Henry to talk about, like, what that journey has looked like.
\n\nHENRY: Thanks, Maxim. I think what's cool about DORA is in terms of using metrics, there's always this challenge called Goodhart's Law, right? So, whenever a metric becomes a target, the metric cease to be a good metric because people are going to find ways to game the metric. So, I think what's cool about DORA is that it actually offers not just one metric but four key metrics that bring balance to covering both the stability and velocity.
\n\nSo, when you look at DORA metrics, you can't just optimize for velocity and sacrificing your stability. But you have to look at all four metrics at the same time, and that's harder to game. So, I think that's why it's become more and more popular in the industry as the starting point for using metrics for data-driven engineering.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And I like how DORA also represents it as the metrics and how they apply to where you are in the lifecycle of your product. So, I'm curious: with Merico, what kind of insights do you think engineering leaders can gain from having this data that will unlock some of their team's potential?
\n\nMAXIM: So, I think one of the most foundational things before we get into any detailed metrics is I think it's more important than ever, especially given that so many of us are remote, right? Where the general processes of software engineering are generally difficult to understand, right? They're nuanced. They tend to kind of happen in relative isolation until a PR is reviewed and merged. And it can be challenging, of course, to understand what's being done, how consistently, how well, like, where are the good parts, where are the bad parts. And I think that problem gets really exasperated, especially in a remote setting where no one is necessarily in the same place.
\n\nSo, on a foundational level, I think we've really worked hard to solve that challenge, where just being able to see, like, how are we doing? And to that point, I think what we've found before anyone even dives too deep into all of the insights that we can deliver, I think there's a tremendous amount of appetite for anyone who's looking to get into that practice of constant improvement and figuring out how to level up the work they're doing, just setting close benchmarks, figuring out, like, okay, when we talk about more nebulous or maybe subjective terms like speed, or quality, what does good look like? What does consistent look like?
\n\nBeing able to just tie those things to something that really kind of unifies the vocabulary is something I always like to say, where, okay, now, even if we're not focused on a specific metric, or we don't have a really particular goal in mind that we want to assess, now we're at least starting the conversation as a team from a place where when we talk about quality, we have something that's shared between us. We understand what we're referring to. And when we're talking about speed, we can also have something consistent to talk about there.
\n\nAnd within all of that, I think one of the most powerful things is it helps to really kind of ground the conversations around the trade-offs, right? There's always that common saying: the triangle of trade-offs is where it's, like, you can have it cheap; you can have it fast, and you can have it good, but you can only have two. And I think with DORA, with all of these different frameworks with many metrics, it helps to really solidify what those trade-offs look like. And that's, for me at least, been one of the most impactful things to watch: is our global users have really started evolving their practices with it.
\n\nHENRY: Yeah. And I want to add to Maxim's answer. But before that, I just want to quickly mention how our products are structured. So, Merico actually has an open-source component and a proprietary component. So, the open-source component is called Apache DevLake. It's an open-source project we created first within Merico and later on donated to Apache Software Foundation. And now, it's one of the most popular engineering metrics tool out there.
\n\nAnd then, on top of that, we built a SaaS offering called DevInsight Cloud, which is powered by Apache DevLake. So, with DevLake, the open-source project, you can set up your data connections, connect DevLake to all of the dev tools you're using, and then we collect data. And then we provide many different flavors of dashboards for our users.
\n\nAnd many of those dashboards are structured, and there are different questions engineering teams might want to ask. For example, like, how fast are we responding to our customer requirement? For that question, we will look at like, metrics like change lead time, or, like, for a question, how accurate is our planning for the sprint? In that case, the dashboard will show metrics relating to the percentage of issues we can deliver for every sprint for our plan. So, that's sort of, you know, based on the questions that the team wants to answer, we provide different dashboards that help them extract insights using the data from their DevOps tools.
\n\nJOE: It's really interesting you donated it to Apache. And I feel like the hybrid SaaS open-source model is really common. And I've become more and more skeptical of it over the years as companies start out open source, and then once they start getting competitors, they change the license. But by donating it to Apache, you sort of sidestep that potential trust issue.
\n\nMAXIM: Yeah, you've hit the nail on the head with that one because, in many ways, for us, engaging with Apache in the way that we have was, I think, ultimately born out of the observations we had about the shortcomings of other products in the space where, for one, very practical. We realized quickly that if we wanted to offer the most complete visibility possible, it would require connections to so many different products, right?
\n\nI think anyone can look at their engineering toolchain and identify perhaps 7, 9, 10 different things they're using on a day-to-day basis. Oftentimes, those aren't shared between companies, too. So, I think part one was just figuring out like, okay, how do we build a framework that makes it easy for developers to build a plugin and contribute to the project if there's something they want to incorporate that isn't already supported? And I think that was kind of part one.
\n\nPart two is, I think, much more important and far more profound, which is developer trust, right? Where we saw so many different products out there that claimed to deliver these insights but really had this kind of black-box approach, right? Where data goes in, something happens, insights come out. How's it doing that? How's it weighting things? What's it calculating? What variables are incorporated? All of that is a mystery. And that really leads to developers, rightfully, not having a basis to trust what's actually being shown to them.
\n\nSo, for us, it was this perspective of what's the maximum amount of transparency that we could possibly offer? Well, open source is probably the best answer to that question. We made sure the entirety of the codebase is something they can take a look at, they can modify. They can dive into the underlying queries and algorithms and how everything is working to gain a total sense of trust in how is this thing working? And if I need to modify something to account for some nuanced details of how our team works, we can also do that.
\n\nAnd to your point, you know, I think it's definitely something I would agree with that one of the worst things we see in the open-source community is that companies will be kind of open source in name only, right? Where it's really more of marketing or kind of sales thing than anything, where it's like, oh, let's tap into the good faith of open source. But really, somehow or another, through bait and switch, through partial open source, through license changes, whatever it is, we're open source in name only but really, a proprietary, closed-source product.
\n\nSo, for us, donating the core of DevLake to the Apache Foundation was essentially our way of really, like, putting, you know, walking the talk, right? Where no one can doubt at this point, like, oh, is this thing suddenly going to have the license changed? Is this suddenly going to go closed-source? Like, the answer to that now is a definitive no because it is now part of that ecosystem.
\n\nAnd I think with the aspirations we've had to build something that is not just a tool but, hopefully, long-term becomes, like, foundational technology, I think that gives people confidence and faith that this is something they can really invest in. They can really plumb into their processes in a deep and meaningful way with no concerns whatsoever that something is suddenly going to change that makes all of that work, you know, something that they didn't expect.
\n\nJOE: I think a lot of companies guard their source code like it's their secret sauce, but my experience has been more that it's the secret shame [laughs].
\n\nHENRY: [laughs]
\n\nMAXIM: There's no doubt in my role with, especially our open-source product driving our community we've really seen the magic of what a community-driven product can be. And open source, I think, is the most kind of a true expression of a community-driven product, where we have a Slack community with nearly 1,000 developers in it now. Naturally, right? Some of those developers are in there just to ask questions and answer questions. Some are intensely involved, right? They're suggesting improvements. They're suggesting new features. They're finding ways to refine things.
\n\nAnd it really is that, like, fantastic culture that I'm really proud that we've cultivated where best idea ships, right? If you've got a good idea, throw it into a GitHub issue or a comment. Let's see how the community responds to it. Let's see if someone wants to pick it up. Let's see if someone wants to submit a PR. If it's good, it goes into production, and then the entire community benefits. And, for me, that's something I've found endlessly exciting.
\n\nHENRY: Yeah. I think Joe made a really good point on the secret sauce part because I don't think the source code is our secret sauce. There's no rocket science in DevLake. If we break it down, it's really just some UI UX plus data pipelines. I think what's making DevLake successful is really the trust and collaboration that we're building with the open-source community. When it comes to trust, I think there are two aspects. First of all, trust on the metric accuracy, right? Because with a lot of proprietary software, you don't know how they are calculating the metrics. If people don't know how the metrics are calculated, they can't really trust it and use it.
\n\nAnd secondly, is the trust that they can always use this software, and there's no vendor lock-in. And when it comes to collaboration, we were seeing many of our data sources and dashboards they were contributed not by our core developers but by the community. And the communities really, you know, bring in their insights and their use cases into DevLake and make DevLake, you know, more successful and more applicable to more teams in different areas of soft engineering.
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\n\nOver four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success.
\n\nFind out how we can help you move the needle at tbot.io/entrepreneurs.
\n\nVICTORIA: I understand you've taken some innovative approaches on using AI in your open-source repositories to respond to issues and questions from your developers. So, can you tell me a little bit more about that?
\n\nHENRY: Absolutely. I self-identify as a builder. And one characteristic of builder is to always chase after the dream of building infinite things within the finite lifespan. So, I was always thinking about how we can be more productive, how we can, you know, get better at getting better. And so, this year, you know, AI is huge, and there are so many AI-powered tools that can help us achieve more in terms of delivering software.
\n\nAnd then, internally, we had a hackathon, and there's one project, which is an AI-powered coding assistant coming out of it called DevChat. And we have made it public at devchat.ai. But we've been closely following, you know, what are the other AI-powered tools that can make, you know, software developers' or open-source maintainers' lives easier? And we've been observing that there are more and more open-source projects adopting AI chatbots to help them handle, you know, respond to GitHub issues.
\n\nSo, I recently did a case study on a pretty popular open-source project called LangChain. So, it's the hot kid right now in the AI space right now. And it's using a chatbot called Dosu to help respond to issues. I had some interesting findings from the case study.
\n\nVICTORIA: In what ways was that chatbot really helpful, and in what ways did it not really work that well?
\n\nHENRY: Yeah, I was thinking of how to measure the effectiveness of that chatbot. And I realized that there is a feature that's built in GitHub, which is the reaction to comment. So, how the chatbot works is whenever there is a new issue, the chatbot would basically retrieval-augmented generation pipeline and then using ORM to generate a response to the issue. And then there's people leave reactions to that comment by the chatbot, but mostly, it's thumbs up and thumbs down.
\n\nSo, what I did is I collect all of the issues from the LangChain repository and look at how many thumbs up and thumbs down Dosu chatbot got, you know, from all of the comments they left with the issues. So, what I found is that over across 2,600 issues that Dosu chatbot helped with, it got around 900 thumbs ups and 1,300 thumbs down. So, then it comes to how do we interpret this data, right? Because it got more thumbs down than thumbs up doesn't mean that it's actually not useful or harmful to the developers.
\n\nSo, to answer that question, I actually looked at some examples of thumbs-up and thumb-down comments. And what I found is the thumb down doesn't mean that the chatbot is harmful. It's mostly the developers are signaling to the open-source maintainers that your chatbot is not helping in this case, and we need human intervention. But with the thumbs up, the chatbot is actually helping a lot.
\n\nThere's one issue where people post a question, and the chatbot just wrote the code and then basically made a suggestion on how to resolve the issue. And the human response is, "Damn, it worked." And that was very surprising to me, and it made me consider, you know, adopting similar technology and AI-powered tools for our own open-source project.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's very cool. Well, I want to go back to the beginning of Merico. And when you first got started, and you were trying to understand your customers and what they need, was there anything surprising in that early discovery process that made you change your strategy?
\n\nHENRY: So, one challenge we faced when we first explored open-source funding allocation problem space is that our algorithm looks at the Git repository. But with software engineering, especially with open-source collaboration, there are so many activities that are happening outside of open-source repos on GitHub. For example, I might be an evangelist, and my day-to-day work might be, you know, engaging in community work, talking about the open-source project conference. And all of those things were not captured by our algorithm, which was only looking at the GitHub repository at the time. So, that was one of the technical challenge that we faced and led us to switch over to more of the system-driven metrics side.
\n\nVICTORIA: Gotcha. Over the years, how has Merico grown? What has changed between when you first started and today?
\n\nHENRY: So, one thing is the team size. When we just got started, we only have, you know, the three co-founders and Maxim. And now we have grown to a team of 70 team members, and we have a fully distributed team across multiple continents. So, that's pretty interesting dynamics to handle. And we learned a lot of how to build effective team and a cohesive team along the way.
\n\nAnd in terms of product, DevLake now, you know, has more than 900 developers in our Slack community, and we track over 360 companies using DevLake. So, definitely, went a long way since we started the journey. And yeah, tomorrow we...actually, Maxim and I are going to host our end-of-year Apache DevLake Community Meetup and featuring Nathen Harvey, the Google's DORA team lead. Yeah, definitely made some progress since we've been working on Merico for four years.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, that's exciting. Well, say hi to Nathen for me. I helped takeover DevOps DC with some of the other organizers that he was running way back in the day, so [laughs] that's great. What challenges do you see on the horizon for Merico and DevLake?
\n\nMAXIM: One of the challenges I think about a lot, and I think it's front of mind for many people, especially with software engineering, but at this point, nearly every profession, is what does AI mean for everything we're doing? What does the future look like where developers are maybe producing the majority of their code through prompt-based approaches versus code-based approaches, right? How do we start thinking about how we coherently assess that?
\n\nLike, how do you maybe redefine what the value is when there's a scenario where perhaps all coders, you know, if we maybe fast forward a few years, like, what if the AI is so good that the code is essentially perfect? What does success look like then? How do you start thinking about what is a good team if everyone is shooting out 9 out of 10 PRs nearly every time because they're all using a unified framework supported by AI? So, I think that's certainly kind of one of the challenges I envision in the future.
\n\nI think, really, practically, too, many startups have been contending with the macroclimate within the fundraising climates. You know, I think many of the companies out there, us included, had better conditions in 2019, 2020 to raise funds at more favorable valuations, perhaps more relaxed terms, given the climate of the public markets and, you know, monetary policy. I think that's, obviously, we're all experiencing and has tightened things up like revenue expectations or now higher kind of expectations on getting into a highly profitable place or, you know, the benchmark is set a lot higher there.
\n\nSo, I think it's not a challenge that's unique to us in any way at all. I think it's true for almost every company that's out there. It's now kind of thinking in a more disciplined way about how do you kind of meet the market demands without compromising on the product vision and without compromising on the roadmap and the strategies that you've put in place that are working but are maybe coming under a little bit more pressure, given kind of the new set of rules that have been laid out for all of us?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that is going to be a challenge. And do you see the company and the product solving some of those challenges in a unique way?
\n\nHENRY: I've been thinking about how AI can fulfill the promise of making developers 10x developer. I'm an early adopter and big fan of GitHub Copilot. I think it really helps with writing, like, the boilerplate code. But I think it's improving maybe my productivity by 20% to 30%. It's still pretty far away from 10x. So, I'm thinking how Merico's solutions can help fill the gap a little bit.
\n\nIn terms of Apache DevLake and its SaaS offering, I think we are helping with, like, the team collaboration and measuring, like, software delivery performance, how can the team improve as a whole. And then, recently, we had a spin-off, which is the AI-powered coding assistant DevChat. And that's sort of more on the empowering individual developers with, like, testing, refactoring these common workflows.
\n\nAnd one big thing for us in the future is how we can combine these two components, you know, team collaboration and improvement tool, DevLake, with the individual coding assistant, DevChat, how they can be integrated together to empower developers. I think that's the big question for Merico ahead.
\n\nJOE: Have you used Merico to judge the contributions of AI to a project?
\n\nHENRY: [laughs] So, actually, after we pivot to engineering metrics, we focus now less on individual contribution because that sometimes can be counterproductive. Because whenever you visualize that, then people will sometimes become defensive and try to optimize for the metrics that measure individual contributions. So, we sort of...nowadays, we no longer offer that kind of metrics within DevLake, if that makes sense.
\n\nMAXIM: And that kind of goes back to one of Victoria's earlier questions about, like, what surprised us in the journey. Early on, we had this very benevolent perspective, you know, I would want to kind of underline that, that we never sought to be judging individuals in a negative way. We were looking to find ways to make it useful, even to a point of finding ways...like, we explored different ways to give developers badges and different kind of accomplishment milestones, like, things to kind of signal their strengths and accomplishments.
\n\nBut I think what we've found in that journey is that...and I would really kind of say this strongly. I think the only way that metrics of any kind serve an organization is when they support a healthy culture. And to that end, what we found is that we always like to preach, like, it's processes, not people. It's figuring out if you're hiring correctly, if you're making smart decisions about who's on the team. I think you have to operate with a default assumption within reason that those people are doing their best work. They're trying to move the company forward. They're trying to make good decisions to better serve the customers, better serve the company and the product.
\n\nWith that in mind, what you're really looking to do is figure out what is happening within the underlying processes that get something from thought to production. And how do you clear the way for people? And I think that's really been a big kind of, you know, almost like a tectonic shift for our company over the years is really kind of fully transitioning to that. And I think, in some ways, DORA has represented kind of almost, like, a best practice for, like, processes over people, right?
\n\nIt's figuring out between quality and speed; how are you doing? Where are those trade-offs? And then, within the processes that account for those outcomes, how can you really be improving things? So, I would say, for us, that's, like, been kind of the number one thing there is figuring out, like, how do we keep doubling down on processes, not people? And how do we really make sure that we're not just telling people that we're on their side and we're taking a, you know, a very humanistic perspective on wanting to improve the lives of people but actually doing it with the product?
\n\nHENRY: But putting the challenge on measuring individual contributions aside, I'm as curious as Joe about AI's role in software engineering. I expect to see more and more involvement of AI and gradually, you know, replacing low-level and medium-level and, in the future, even high-level tasks for humans so we can just focus on, like, the objective instead of the implementation.
\n\nVICTORIA: I can imagine, especially if you're starting to integrate AI tools into your systems and if you're growing your company at scale, some of the ability to have a natural intuition about what's going on it really becomes a challenge, and the data that you can derive from some of these products could help you make better decisions and all different types of things.
\n\nSo, I'm kind of curious to hear from Joe; with your history of open-source contribution and being a part of many different development teams, what kind of information do you wish that you had to help you make decisions in your role?
\n\nJOE: Yeah, that's an interesting question. I've used some tools that try to identify problem spots in the code. But it'd be interesting to see the results of tools that analyze problem spots in the process. Like, I'd like to learn more about how that works.
\n\nHENRY: I'm curious; one question for Joe. What is your favorite non-AI-powered code scanning tool that you find useful for yourself or for your team?
\n\nJOE: I think the most common static analysis tool I use is something to find the Git churn in a repository. Some of this probably is because I've worked mostly on projects these days with dynamic languages. So, there's kind of a limit to how much static analysis you can do of, you know, a Ruby or a Python codebase. But just by analyzing which parts of the application changed the most, help you find which parts are likely to be the buggiest and the most complex.
\n\nI think every application tends to involve some central model. Like, if you're making an e-commerce site, then probably products are going to have a lot of the core logic, purchases will have a lot of the core logic. And identifying those centers of gravity just through the Git statistics has helped me find places that need to be reworked.
\n\nHENRY: That's really interesting. Is it something like a hotspot analysis? And when you find a hotspot, then would you invest more resources in, like, refactoring the hotspot to make it more maintainable?
\n\nJOE: Right, exactly. Like, you can use the statistics to see which files you should look at. And then, usually, when you actually go into the files, especially if you look at some of the changes to the files, it's pretty clear that it's become, you know, for example, a class has become too large, something has become too tightly coupled.
\n\nHENRY: Gotcha.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And so, if you could go back in time, five years ago and give yourself some advice when you first started along this journey, what advice would you give yourself?
\n\nMAXIM: I'll answer the question in two ways: first for the company and then for myself personally. I think for the company, what I would say is, especially when you're in that kind of pre-product market fit space, and you're maybe struggling to figure out how to solve a challenge that really matters, I think you need to really think carefully about, like, how would you yourself be using your product? And if you're finding reasons, you wouldn't, like, really, really pay careful attention to those.
\n\nAnd I think, for us, like, early on in our journey, we ultimately kind of found ourselves asking, we're like, okay, we're a smaller earlier stage team. Perhaps, like, small improvements in productivity or quality aren't going to necessarily move the needle. That's one of the reasons maybe we're not using this. Maybe our developers are already at bandwidth. So, it's not a question of unlocking more bandwidth or figuring out where there's kind of weak points or bottlenecks at that level, but maybe how can we dial in our own processes to let the whole team function more effectively.
\n\nAnd I think, for us, like, the more we started thinking through that lens of, like, what's useful to us, like, what's solving a pain point for us, I think, in many ways, DevLake was born out of that exact thinking. And now DevLake is used by hundreds of companies around the world and has, you know, this near thousand developer community that supports it. And I think that's testament to the power of that.
\n\nFor me, personally, if I were to kind of go back five years, you know, I'm grateful to say there isn't a whole lot I would necessarily change. But I think if there's anything that I would, it would just to be consistently more brave in sharing ideas, right? I think Merico has done a great job, and it's something I'm so proud of for us as a team of really embracing new ideas and really kind of making sure, like, best idea ships, right? There isn't a title. There isn't a level of seniority that determines whether or not someone has a right to suggest something or improve something.
\n\nAnd I think with that in mind, for me as a technical person but not a member of technical staff, so to speak, I think there was many occasions, for me personally, where I felt like, okay, maybe because of that, I shouldn't necessarily weigh in on certain things. And I think what I've found, and it's a trust-building thing as well, is, like, even if you're wrong, even if your suggestion may be misunderstands something or isn't quite on target, there's still a tremendous amount of value in just being able to share a perspective and share a recommendation and push it out there.
\n\nAnd I think with that in mind, like, it's something I would encourage myself and encourage everybody else in a healthy company to feel comfortable to just keep sharing because, ultimately, it's an accuracy-by-volume game to a certain degree, right? Where if I come up with one idea, then I've got one swing at the bat. But if us as a collective come up with 100 ideas that we consider intelligently, we've got a much higher chance of maybe a handful of those really pushing us forward. So, for me, that would be advice I would give myself and to anybody else.
\n\nHENRY: I'll follow the same structure, so I'll start by the advice in terms of company and advice to myself as an individual. So, for a company level, I think my advice would be fail fast because every company needs to go through this exploration phase trying to find their product-market fit, and then they will have to test, you know, a couple of ideas before they find the right fit for themselves, the same for us. And I wish that we actually had more in terms of structure in exploring these ideas and set deadlines, you know, set milestones for us to quickly test and filter out bad ideas and then accelerate the exploration process. So, fail fast would be my suggestion at the company level.
\n\nFrom an individual level, I would say it's more adapting to my CTO role because when I started the company, I still had that, you know, graduate student hustle mindset. I love writing code myself. And it's okay if I spent 100% of my time writing code when the company was, you know, at five people, right? But it's not okay [chuckles] when we have, you know, a team of 40 engineers. So, I wish I had that realization earlier, and I transitioned to a real CTO role earlier, focusing more, like, on technical evangelism or building out the technical and non-technical infrastructure to help my engineering teams be successful.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, I really appreciate that. And is there anything else that you all would like to promote today?
\n\nHENRY: So if you're, you know, engineering leaders who are looking to measure, you know, some metrics and adopt a more data-driven approach to improving your software delivery performance, check out Apache DevLake. It's open-source project, free to use, and it has some great dashboards, support, various data resources. And join our community. We have a pretty vibrant community on Slack. And there are a lot of developers and engineering leaders discussing how they can get more value out of data and metrics and improve software delivery performance.
\n\nMAXIM: Yeah. And I think to add to that, something I think we've found consistently is there's plenty of data skeptics out there, rightfully so. I think a lot of analytics of every kind are really not very good, right? And so, I think people are rightfully frustrated or even traumatized by them.
\n\nAnd for the data skeptics out there, I would invite them to dive into the DevLake community and pose your challenges, right? If you think this stuff doesn't make sense or you have concerns about it, come join the conversation because I think that's really where the most productive discussions end up coming from is not from people mutually high-fiving each other for a successful implementation of DORA.
\n\nBut the really exciting moments come from the people in the community who are challenging it and saying like, "You know what? Like, here's where I don't necessarily think something is useful or I think could be improved." And it's something that's not up to us as individuals to either bless or to deny. That's where the community gets really exciting is those discussions. So, I would say, if you're a data skeptic, come and dive in, and so long as you're respectful, challenge it. And by doing so, you'll hopefully not only help yourself but really help everybody, which is what I love about this stuff so much.
\n\nJOE: I'm curious, does Merico use Merico?
\n\nHENRY: Yes. We've been dogfooding ourself a lot. And a lot of the product improvement ideas actually come from our own dogfooding process. For example, there was one time that we look at a dashboard that has this issue change lead time. And then we found our issue, change lead time, you know, went up in the past few month. And then, we were trying to interpret whether that's a good thing or a bad thing because just looking at a single metric doesn't tell us the story behind the change in the metrics. So, we actually improved the dashboard to include some, you know, covariates of the metrics, some other related metrics to help explain the trend of the metric. So yeah, dogfooding is always useful in improving product.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. Well, thank you all so much for joining. I really enjoyed our conversation.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.
Sponsored By:
If you missed the first and second episodes with thoughtbot Incubator Program partcipants and founders Mike Rosenthal and Chris Cerrito of Goodz, you can listen to the first episode and the second episode to catch up!
\n\nLindsey Christensen, head of marketing at thoughtbot is joined by Mike Rosenthal and Chris Cerrito, co-founders of the startup Goodz, and Danny Kim, Senior Product Manager at thoughtbot.
\n\nMike and Chris discuss the progress of Goodz, focusing on the recent intense weeks they've had. Goodz, a startup merging the digital and physical worlds of music, has stayed on course with its initial concept. Mike details their approach to Thanksgiving and the launch of their e-commerce experiment. He shares insights from recent user interviews, which have influenced their approach and understanding of their target audience.
\n\nWhen the discussion turns to the challenges of launching and maintaining their e-commerce platform, Mike and Chris talk about learning from analytics, marketing strategies, and the importance of understanding consumer behavior. They discuss the challenges in balancing short-term and long-term goals, and the upcoming fundraising efforts.
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nLINDSEY: Thanks for being here. My name's Lindsey. I head up marketing at thoughtbot. If you haven't joined one of these before, we are checking in with two of the founders who are going through the thoughtbot Startup Incubator to learn how it's going, what's new, what challenges they're hitting, and what they're learning along the way.
\n\nIf you're not familiar with thoughtbot, we're a product design and development consultancy, and we hope your team and your product become a success. And one way we do that is through our startup incubator.
\n\nSo, today, we are joined by our co-founders, Mike Rosenthal and Chris Cerrito, Co-Founders of the startup Goodz. And we also have another special guest today, Danny Kim, from the thoughtbot side, Senior Product Manager at thoughtbot. So, I think, to start off, we'll head over to the new face, the new voice that we've got with us today. Danny, tell us a little bit about your role at thoughtbot and, specifically, the incubator.
\n\nDANNY: Yeah, sure. First of all, thanks for having me on, and thanks for letting me join in on all the fun. I'm one of the product managers at thoughtbot. I typically work for the Lift-Off team. We usually work with companies that are looking to, like, go into market with their first version MVP. They might have a product that exists and that they're already kind of doing well with, and they kind of want to jump into a new segment. We'll typically work with companies like that to kind of get them kicked off the ground.
\n\nBut it's been really awesome being part of the incubator program. It's my first time in helping with the market validation side. Definitely also, like, learning a lot from this experience [laughs] for myself. Coming at it specifically from a PM perspective, there's, like, so much variation usually in product management across the industry, depending on, like, what stage of the product that you're working in. And so, I'm definitely feeling my fair share of impostor syndrome here.
\n\nBut it's been really fun to stretch my brand and, like, approach problems from, like, a completely different perspective and also using different tools. But, you know, working with Mike and Chris makes it so much easier because they really make it feel like you're part of their team, and so that definitely goes a long way.
\n\nLINDSEY: It just goes to show everyone gets impostor syndrome sometimes [laughter], even senior product managers at thoughtbot [laughter]. Thanks for that intro. It's, you know, the thoughtbot team learns along the way, too, you know, especially if usually you're focused on a different stage of product development.
\n\nMike, it's been only three weeks or a very long three weeks since last we checked in with you, kind of forever in startup time. So, I think the last time, we were just getting to know you two. And you were walking us through the concept, this merging of the digital and physical world of music, and how we interact with music keepsakes or merchandise. How's my pitch?
\n\nMIKE: Good. Great. You're killing it.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nLINDSEY: And has anything major changed to that concept in the last three weeks?
\n\nMIKE: No. I mean, I can't believe it's only been three weeks. It feels like it's been a long time since we last talked. It's been an intense three weeks, for sure. No, it's been going really well. I mean, we launched all sorts of stuff. I'm trying to think of anything that's sort of fundamentally changed in terms of the plan itself or kind of our, yeah, what we've been working on. And I think we've pretty much stayed the course to sort of get to where we are now. But it's been really intensive.
\n\nI think also having sort of Thanksgiving in there, and we were kind of pushing to get something live right before the Thanksgiving break. And so, that week just felt, I mean, I was just dead by, you know, like, Thursday of Thanksgiving. I think we all were. So, it's been intense, I would say, is the short answer. And I'm happy, yeah, to get into kind of where things are at. But big picture, it's been an intense three weeks.
\n\nLINDSEY: That's cool. And when we talked, you were, you know, definitely getting into research and user interviews. Have those influenced any, you know, changes along the way in the plan?
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. They've been really helpful. You know, we'd never really done that before in any of the sort of past projects that we've worked on together. And so, I think just being able to, you know, read through some of those scripts and then sit through some of the interviews and just kind of hearing people's honest assessment of some things has been really interesting. I'm trying to think if it's materially affected anything.
\n\nI guess, you know, at first, we were, like, we kind of had some assumptions around, okay, let's try to find, like...adult gift-givers sounds like the wrong thing, adults who give gifts as, like, a persona. The idea that, like, you know, maybe you gift your siblings gifts, and then maybe this could be a good gift idea. And I think, you know, we had a hard time kind of finding people to talk in an interesting way about that. And I think we've kind of realized it's kind of a hard persona to kind of chop up and talk about, right, Chris? I don't know [crosstalk 04:55]
\n\nCHRIS: Well, it also seemed to, from my understanding of it, it seemed to, like, genuinely stress out the people who were being interviewed...
\n\nMIKE: [laughs]
\n\nCHRIS: Because it's kind of about a stressful topic [inaudible 05:03], you know, and, like, especially --
\n\nLINDSEY: Why? [laughs]
\n\nCHRIS: Well, I think, I don't know, now I'm making assumptions. Maybe because we're close to the holiday season, and that's a topic in the back of everybody's mind. But yeah, Danny, would you disagree with that? Those folks, from what we heard, seemed like they were the most difficult to kind of extract answers from. But then, if the subject changed and we treated them as a different persona, several of those interviews proved to be quite fruitful. So, it's just really interesting.
\n\nDANNY: Yeah. It really started, like, you kind of try to get some answers out of people, and there's, like, some level of people trying to please you to some extent. That's just, like, naturally, how it starts. And you just, like, keep trying to drill into the answers. And you just keep asking people like, "So, what kind of gifts do you give?" And they're just like, "Oh my goodness, like, I haven't thought about buying gifts for my sister in [laughs], like, you know, in forever. And now, like [laughs], I don't know where to go." And they get, like, pretty stressed out about it.
\n\nBut then we just kind of started shifting into like, "All right, cool, never mind about that. Like, do you like listening to music?" And they're like, "Yes." And then it just kind of explodes from there. And they're like, "This last concert that I went to..." and all of this stuff. And it was much more fruitful kind of leaning more towards that, actually, yeah.
\n\nLINDSEY: That's fascinating. I guess that speaks to, especially at this stage and the speed and the amount of interviews you're doing, the need for being, like, really agile in those interviews, and then, like, really quickly applying what you're learning to making the next one even more valuable.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. And I think, you know, like, we launched just a little sort of website experiment or, like, an e-commerce experiment right before Thanksgiving. And I think now, you know, we're able to sort of take some of those learnings from those interviews and apply them to both sort of our ad copy itself but also just different landing pages in different language on the different kind of versions of the site and see if we can find some resonance with some of these audience groups. So, it's been interesting.
\n\nLINDSEY: Are you still trying to figure out who that early adopter audience is, who that niche persona is?
\n\nMIKE: I think we --
\n\nCHRIS: Yes, we are. I think we have a good idea of who it is. And I think right now we're just trying to figure out really how to reach those people. That, I think, is the biggest challenge right now for us.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. With the e-commerce experiment it was sort of a very specific niche thing that is a little bit adjacent to what I think we want to be doing longer term with Goodz. And so, it's weird. It's like, we're in a place we're like, oh, we really want to find the people that want this thing. But also, this thing isn't necessarily the thing that we think we're going to make longer term, so let's not worry too hard about finding them. You know what I mean? It's been an interesting sort of back and forth with that.
\n\nCHRIS: From the interviews that we conducted, you know, we identified three key personas. Most of them have come up, but I'll just relist them. There's the sibling gift giver. There was the merch buyers; these are people who go to concerts and buy merchandise, you know, T-shirts, albums, records, things along those lines to support the artists that they love. And then the final one that was identified we gave the title of the 'Proud Playlister'. And these are people who are really into their digital media platforms, love making playlists, and love sharing those playlists with their friends.
\n\nAnd that, I would say, the proud playlister is really the one that we have focused on in terms of the storefront that we launched, like, the product is pretty much specifically for them. But the lessons that we're learning while making this product and trying to get this into the hands of the proud playlisters will feed into kind of the merch buyers.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. And I think that, you know, it's funny, like, this week is kind of a poignant week for this, right? Because it's the week that Spotify Wrapped launched, right? So, it's like, in the course of any given year, it's probably, like, the one week of the year that lots and lots and lots of people are thinking about playlists all of a sudden, so trying a little bit to see if we can ride that wave or just kind of dovetail with that a bit, too.
\n\nLINDSEY: Absolutely. And do you want to give just, like, the really quick reminder of what the product experience is like?
\n\nMIKE: Oh yeah [laughs], good call.
\n\nCHRIS: This is a prototype of it. It's called the Goodz Mixtape. Basically, the idea is that you purchase one of these from us. You give us a playlist URL. We program that URL onto the NFC chip that's embedded in the Good itself. And then when you scan this Good, that playlist will come up. So, it's a really great way of you make a playlist for somebody, and you want to gift it to them; this is a great way to do that. You have a special playlist, maybe between you and a friend or you and a partner. This is a good way to commemorate that playlist, turn it into a physical thing, give that digital file value and presence in the physical world.
\n\nLINDSEY: Great. Okay, so you casually mentioned this launch of an e-commerce store that happened last week.
\n\nMIKE: It didn't feel casual.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. Why [laughter]...[inaudible 09:45] real casual. Why did you launch it? How's it going?
\n\nMIKE: I don't know. Why did we launch it? I mean, well, we wanted to be able to test some assumptions. I think, you know, we wanted to get the brand out there a little bit, get our website out there, kind of introduce the concept. You know, this is a very...not that we've invented this product category, but it is a pretty obscure product category, right? And so, there's a lot of sort of consumer education that I think that has to go on for people to wrap their heads around this and why they'd want this.
\n\nSo, I think we wanted to start that process a little bit correctly, sort of in advance of a larger launch next year, and see if we could find some early community around this. You know, if we can find those core people who just absolutely love this, and connect with it, and go wild around it, then those are the people that we're going to be able to get a ton of information from and build for that persona, right? It's like, cool, these are the people who love this. Let's build more for them and go find other people like this. So, I think, for us, it was that.
\n\nAnd then, honestly, it was also just, you know, let's test our manufacturing and fulfillment and logistics capabilities, right? I mean, this is...as much as we are a B2B, you know, SaaS platform or that's what we envision the future of Goodz being, there is a physical component of this. And, you know, we do have that part basically done at this point. But we just, you know, what is it like to order 1,000 of these?
\n\nWhat is it like to put these in the mail to people and, you know, actually take orders? And just some of that processing because we do envision a more wholesale future where we're doing, you know, thousands or tens of thousands of this at a time. And so, I think we just want to button up and do some dry runs before we get to those kinds of numbers.
\n\nCHRIS: I think it also it's important to remember that we are talking in startup time. And while this last week seems like an eternity, it's been a week [laughs] that we've had this in place. So, we're just starting to learn these things, and we plan on continuing to do so.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. But I think we thought that getting a website up would be a good way to just start kind of testing everything more.
\n\nLINDSEY: Great. Danny, what went into deciding what would be in this first version of the site and the e-commerce offering?
\n\nDANNY: I mean, a lot of it was kind of mostly driven by Chris and Mike. They kind of had a vision and an idea of what they wanted to sell. Obviously, from the user interviews, we were starting to hone in a little bit more and, like, we had some assumptions going into it. I think we ultimately did kind of feel like, yeah, I think, like, the playlisters seem to be, like, the target market. But just hearing it more and hearing more excitement from them was definitely just kind of like, yeah, I think we can double down on this piece.
\n\nBut, ultimately, like, in terms of launching the e-commerce platform, and the storefront, and the website, like, just literally looking at the user journey and being like, how does a user get from getting onto a site, like, as soon as they land there to, like, finishing a purchase? And what points do they need? What are the key things that they need to think through and typically will run into? And a lot of it is just kind of reflecting on our own personal buyer behavior.
\n\nAnd, also, as we were getting closer to the launch, starting to work through some of those assumptions about buyer behavior. As we got there, we obviously had some prototypes. We had some screenshots that we were already working with. Like, the design team was already starting to build out some of the site. And so, we would just kind of show it to them, show it to our users, and just be like, hey, like, how do you expect to purchase this? Like, what's the next step that you expect to take? And we'd just kind of, like, continue to iterate on that piece. And so...
\n\nLINDSEY: Okay. So you were, before launching, even showing some of those mockups and starting to incorporate them in the user interviews.
\n\nDANNY: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we tried to get it in there in front of them as early as possible, partially because, like, at some point in the user interviews, like, you're mostly just trying to first understand, like, who are our target customers? Who are these people? And we have an assumption of or an idea of who we think they are. But really, like, once you start talking to people, you kind of are, like, okay, like, this thing that I thought maybe it wasn't so accurate, or, like, the way that they're kind of talking about these products doesn't 100% match what I originally walked into this, you know, experiment with. And so, we, like, start to hone in on that.
\n\nBut after a certain point, you kind of get that idea and now you're just like, okay, you seem to be, like, the right person to talk to. And so, if I were to show you this thing, do you get it, right? Like, do you understand what's happening? Like, how to use this thing, what this product even does. And then also, like, does the checkout experience feel intuitive for you? Is it as simple as, like, I just want to buy a T-shirt? So, like, I'm just going to go by the T-shirt, pick a size, and, you know, move on with my life. Can we make it as seamless as that?
\n\nLINDSEY: And so, you mentioned it's only been a week since it's been live. Have you been able to learn anything from it yet? And how are you trying to drive people to it today?
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, I think we learned that sales is hard [laughs] and slow, and it takes some time. But it's good, and we're learning a lot. I mean, it's been a while since I've really dug deep in, like, the analytics and marketing kind of metrics. And so, we've got all the Google Tag Manager stuff, you know, hooked up and just, you know, connecting with just exploring, honestly, like the TikTok advertising platform, and the YouTube Pre-Rolls, and Shorts. And, like, a lot of stuff that I actually, since the last time I was heavily involved in this stuff, is just totally new and different.
\n\nAnd so, it's been super interesting to see the funnel and sort of see where people are getting in the site, where people are dropping off. You know, we had an interesting conversation in our thoughtbot sync yesterday or the day before, where we were seeing how, you know, we're getting lots of people to the front page and, actually, a good number of people to the product page, and, actually, like, you know, not the worst number of people to the cart. But then you were seeing really high cart abandonment rates.
\n\nAnd then, you know, when you start Googling, and you're like, oh, actually, everybody sees very high cart abandonment rates; that's just a thing. But we were seeing, like, the people were viewing their cart seven or eight times, and they were on there sort of five times as long as they were on any other page. And it's this problem that I think Danny is talking about where, you know, we need to actually get a playlist URL. This gets into the minutiae of what we're building, but basically like, we need to get them to give us a playlist URL in order to check out, right?
\n\nAnd so, you sort of have to, like, put yourself back in the mind of someone who's scrolling on Instagram, and they see this as an ad, and they click it, and they're like, oh, that thing was cool. Sure, I will buy one of those. And then it's like, no, actually, you need to, you know, leave this, go into a different app, find a play...like, it suddenly just puts a lot of the mental strain. But it's a lot. It's a cognitive load, greater than, as you said, just buying a T-shirt and telling what size you want.
\n\nSo, thinking through ways to really trim that down, shore up the amount of time people are spending on a cart. All that stuff has been fascinating. And then just, like, the different demographic kind of work that we're using, all the social ads platforms to kind of identify has been really interesting. It's still early.
\n\nBut, actually, like, Chris and I were just noticing...we were just talking right before this call. Like, we're actually starting to get, just in the last 12 hours, a bunch more, a bunch, but more people signing up to our email newsletter, probably in the last 12 hours that we have in the whole of last week. Yeah, I don't know, just even that sort of learning, it's like, oh, do people just need time with a thing, or they come back and they think about it?
\n\nCHRIS: Yeah. Could these people be working on their playlists? That's a question that I have.
\n\nMIKE: [chuckles] Yeah, me too.
\n\nCHRIS: It's like, you know, I'm making a playlist to drop into this product. It's really interesting. And I think it gives insight to kind of, you know, how personal this product could be, that this is something that takes effort on the part of the consumer because they're making something to give or to keep for themselves, which is, I think, really interesting but definitely hard, too.
\n\nDANNY: Yeah. And I also want to also clarify, like, Chris just kind of said it, like, especially for viewers and listeners, like, that's something that we've been hearing a lot from user interviews, too, right? Like, the language that they're using is, like, this is a thing that I care about. Like it's a representation of who I am. It's a representation of, like, the relationship that I have with this person that I'm going to be giving, you know, this gift to or this playlist to, specifically, like, people who feel, like, really passionate about these things. And, I mean, like, I did, too.
\n\nLike, when I was first trying to, like, date, my wife, like, I spent, like, hours, hours trying to pick the coolest songs that I thought, you know, were like, oh, like, she's going to think I'm so cool because, like, I listen to these, like, super low-key indie rock bands, and, like, you know, so many more hours than she probably spent listening to it. But that's [laughs] kind of, like, honestly, what we heard a lot in a lot of these interviews, so...
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, same. No, totally resonates. And I also went to the site this week, and I was like, oh damn, this is cool. Like, and immediately it was like, oh, you know, I've got these three, you know, music friends that we go to shows together. I'm like, oh, this would be so cool to get them, you know, playlists of, like, music we've seen together. So, you might see me in the cart. I won't abandon it.
\n\nMIKE: Please. I would love that.
\n\nCHRIS: Don't think about it too long if you could -- [laughter].
\n\nLINDSEY: I won't. I won't.
\n\nCHRIS: I mean, I would say I'm really excited about having the site not only as a vehicle for selling some of these things but also as a vehicle for just honing our message. It's like another tool that we have in our arsenal. During the user interviews themselves, we were talking in abstract terms, and now we have something concrete that we can bounce off people, which is, I think, going to be a huge boon to our toolset as we continue to refine and define this product.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, that's a good point.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. You mentioned that they're signing up for, like, email updates. Do you have something you're sending out? Or are you kind of just creating a list? Totally fine, just building a list.
\n\nMIKE: [laughs] No.
\n\nCHRIS: It's a picture of Mike and I giving a big thumbs up. That's, yeah. [laughter]
\n\nMIKE: No. But maybe...that was the thing; I was like, oh great, they're signing up. And I was like, gosh, they're signing up. Okay [laughter], now we got to write something. But we will.
\n\nLINDSEY: Tips to making your playlist [crosstalk 19:11] playing your playlist --
\n\nMIKE: Yeah [crosstalk 19:13].
\n\nCHRIS: Right. And then also...tips to making your playlists. Also, we're advancing on the collectible side of things, too. We are, hopefully, going to have two pilot programs in place, one with a major label and one with a major artist. And we're really excited about that.
\n\nLINDSEY: Okay. That's cool. I assume you can't tell us very much. What can you tell us?
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. We won't mention names [chuckles] in case it just goes away, as these things sometimes do. But yeah, there's a great band who's super excited about these, been around for a long time, some good name recognition, and a very loyal fan base. They want to do sort of a collection of these. I think maybe we showed the little...I can't remember if we showed the little crates that we make or not, but basically, [inaudible 19:52]
\n\nLINDSEY: The last time, yeah.
\n\nMIKE: So, they want to sell online a package that's, you know, five or six Goodz in a crate, which I think will be cool and a great sort of sales experiment. And then there's a couple of artists that we're going to do an experiment with that's through their label that's more about tour...basically, giving things away on tour. So, they're going to do some giveaway fan club street team-style experiments with some of these on the road.
\n\nSo, first, it's ideal, provided both those things happen, because we definitely want to be exploring on the road and online stuff. And so, this kind of lets us do both at once and get some real learnings as to kind of how people...because we still don't know. We haven't really put these in people's hands yet. And it's just, like, are people scanning these a lot? Are they not? Is this sort of an object that's sitting on their shelf? Is it...yeah, it's just, like, there's so much we're going to learn once we get these into people's hands.
\n\nLINDSEY: Do you have the infrastructure to sort of see how many times the cards are scanned?
\n\nCHRIS: Mm-hmm. Yep, we do.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. So, we can see how many times each one is scanned, where they're scanned, that sort of thing.
\n\nCHRIS: Kind of our next step, and something we were just talking about today with the thoughtbot team, is building out kind of what the backend will be for this, both for users and also for labels and artists. That it will allow them to go in and post updates to the Goodz, to allow them to use these for promotion as people, you know, scan into them to give them links to other sites related to the artists that they might be interested in before they move on to the actual musical playlist. So, that's kind of the next step for us. And knowing how users use these collectibles, both the kind of consumer Good and the artist collectibles that we were just talking about, will help inform how we build that platform.
\n\nLINDSEY: Very cool. And right now, the online store itself that's built in Shopify?
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. The homepage is Webflow that Kevin from the thoughtbot team really spearheaded in building for us. And then, yeah, the e-commerce is Shopify.
\n\nLINDSEY: Y'all have been busy.
\n\nMIKE: [laughs]
\n\nLINDSEY: Is there anything else maybe that I haven't asked about yet that we should touch on in terms of updates or things going on with the product?
\n\nMIKE: I don't know. I don't think so. I think, like Chris said, I mean, we're just...like, now that the site has kind of stood up and we're really switched over to kind of marketing and advertising on that, definitely digging into the backend of this kind of SaaS platform that's going to probably be a big focus for the rest of the, you know, the program, to be honest. Yeah, just some other things we can do on the next front that could eventually build into the backend that I think can be interesting. No, I guess [laughs] the short answer is no, nothing, like, substantial. Those are the big [crosstalk 22:26]
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. Well, that was my next question, too, which is kind of like, what's next, or what's the next chunk of work? So, it's obviously lots more optimization and learning on the e-commerce platform, and then this other mega area, which is, you know, what does this look like as a SaaS solution? What's the vision? But also, where do we start? Which I'm sure, Danny, is a lot of work that you specialize in as far as, like, scoping how to approach these kinds of projects.
\n\nDANNY: Yeah. And it's interesting because, I mean, we were just talking about this today. Like, part of it is, like, we can, like, really dig into, like, the e-commerce site and, like, really nailing it down to get it to the place where it's like, we're driving tons more traffic and also getting as low of a, like, cart abandonment rate as possible, right? But also, considering the fact that this is in the future, like, large-scale vision.
\n\nAnd there's, like, also, like, we're starting to, I think, now iron out a lot of those, like, milestones where we're kind of like, okay, like, we got, like, a short-term vision, which is, like, the e-commerce site. We got a mid-term vision and a potential long-term vision. How do we validate this long-term vision while also still like, keeping this short-term vision moving forward?
\n\nAnd, like, this mid-term vision is also going to, like, help potentially, either, like, steer us towards that long-term or maybe even, like, pivot us, like, into a completely different direction. So, like, where do you put your card, right? Like, how much energy and time do we put into, like, each of these areas? And that's kind of, like, the interesting part of this is starting to talk through that, starting to kind of prioritize, like, how we can maximize on our effort, like, our development and design effort so that things just kind of line up more naturally and organically for our future visioning, so...
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. A lot of different things to juggle. I saw there was a question. Somebody asked what the URL is, but I don't seem to be able to [crosstalk 24:10].
\n\nLINDSEY: The same question as me. We got to drop the link for this thing.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, getthegoodz.com.
\n\nCHRIS: That's G-O-O-D-Z.
\n\nLINDSEY: Get in there, folks
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, get [crosstalk 24:23].
\n\nLINDSEY: And let us know how it goes.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, please [laughs]. Any bugs? Let us know. Yeah. I think that those...yeah, I mean, it's a good point, Danny, in terms of juggling kind of the near-term and longer-term stuff. You know, it's a good kind of reminder our big focus, you know, in the new year is going to be fundraising, right? We're already talking to some investors and things like that.
\n\nSo, it's like, okay, yes, as you said, we could tweak the cart. We could tweak the e-commerce. Or, like, can we paint the big picture of what the longer-term version of this company is going to be in a way that makes it compelling for investment to come in so that there can be a long-term version of this company? And then we can build those things. So yeah, it's definitely a balance between the two.
\n\nLINDSEY: Oh, also, just casual fundraising as well.
\n\n[crosstalk 25:06]
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, yeah.
\n\nLINDSEY: [laughs]
\n\nMIKE: But it's hard. It's like, you wake up in the morning. It's like, do I want to, like, write cold emails to investors? Or do I want to, like, look at Google Analytics and, like, tweak ad copy? That's actually more fun. So, yes.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, life of the founder, for sure. All right. So, that's getthegoodz (Goodz with a z) .com. Check it out. We'll tune in and see what happens with the e-commerce site, what happens with the SaaS planning the next time that we check in.
\n\nBut Chris, Mike, Danny, thank you so much for joining today and sharing what's been going on over the last few weeks: the good, the bad, the challenge, the cart abandonment. And, you know, best of luck to you over the next few weeks, and we'll be sure to check in and see how it's going.
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Special Guests: Chris Cerrito, Joe Ferris, Jordyn Bonds, and Mike Rosenthal.
","summary":"Mike Rosenthal and Chris Cirrito discuss the progress of Goodz, focusing on the recent intense weeks they've had. Goodz, a startup merging the digital and physical worlds of music, has stayed on course with its initial concept. Mike details their approach to Thanksgiving and the launch of their e-commerce experiment. He shares insights from recent user interviews, which have influenced their approach and understanding of their target audience.\r\n\r\nWhen the discussion turns to the challenges of launching and maintaining their e-commerce platform, Mike and Chris talk about learning from analytics, marketing strategies, and the importance of understanding consumer behavior. They discuss the challenges in balancing short-term and long-term goals, and the upcoming fundraising efforts.","date_published":"2024-01-09T00:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/53db0bee-026e-46d0-a53d-d5e72fd7bdc3.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":25155427,"duration_in_seconds":1587}]},{"id":"696cee9f-c2b9-4692-8f68-3124dcd79d0a","title":"506: A Breath of Fresh Air: Wendy Lawson's Mission for Accessible Lung Care","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/506","content_text":"Wendy Lawson is the Founder and CEO of Exhale Lung Rehabilitation, a company offering online lung rehabilitation and remote therapeutic monitoring services. Wendy's extensive background in chronic disease epidemiology, respiratory therapy, and her role with the American Lung Association have been pivotal in her mission to address the gaps in lung rehabilitation accessibility. She discusses the challenges faced in making lung rehabilitation widely available, especially in rural areas, and the exacerbated need for such services during the COVID-19 pandemic. Exhale leverages technology to offer personalized rehabilitation programs, making them accessible to a wider audience regardless of their geographic location. This approach has significantly impacted the quality of life for individuals with lung diseases, especially in a time when remote services have become more crucial than ever.\n\nThe conversation also touches upon the technical and business aspects of running Exhale where Wendy candidly shares the challenges and pivots in the early stages of the company, from developing proprietary algorithms to realizing the need for a scalable and efficient technological platform. This journey of continuous improvement and adaptation is a testament to her commitment to her mission. The episode concludes with a discussion on the future of lung rehabilitation, the potential changes in healthcare policies, and Wendy's unwavering commitment to improving the lives of those with lung diseases.\n\n\nExhale Lung Rehabilitation\nFollow Exhale Lung Rehabilitation on Facebook, Instagram, or X.\nFollow Wendy Lawson on LinkedIn.\nFollow thoughtbot on X or LinkedIn.\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Wendy Lawson, Founder and CEO of Exhale Lung Rehabilitation, which provides online lung rehabilitation and remote therapeutic monitoring services. Wendy, thank you for joining us.\n\nWENDY: Thank you so much for having me. \n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. And we like to start the show with a little warm-up introduction about ourselves. Is there anything exciting happening in your life recently that you'd like to share with our audience?\n\nWENDY: You know, I think the biggest event that has happened for my husband and I and our son and daughter is the marriage of our daughter a couple of weekends ago. So, we're really coming down off of all of the events that surrounded that wedding, and we're so excited for them to start their new life.\n\nVICTORIA: That sounds like a big activity, lots of family life all happening at a time when you are also founder and CEO. So, within that time for your wedding, did you make time or have to learn any new skills for putting on these events?\n\nWENDY: You know, it was really interesting. I did have to do a couple of skills. First of all, planning a wedding is just madness. I knew that it was going to be a big task, but after really having hands on and doing it, it was a lot. It was really fun to learn some new things. \n\nAnd one of the new things that I learned is really flower arrangements. I did some flower arrangements for some of the tables in a couple of the events that surrounded the wedding. And so, that was really fun, new skill. I love to learn new things. That was enlightening and fun. And I'm glad I don't have to do that as a job.\n\n[laughter]\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, so I'm curious, how did you approach learning this new skill? What was your method?\n\nWENDY: My entire life I've loved to learn new things. And I probably approach each of those the same way, and that is get a vision for what I want, or what I want to learn, or what I want it to look like, and then do some research, find people who have done it themselves. Ask advice. \n\nOf course, YouTube is fantastic now for things like DIY. So, I definitely went to YouTube and found some experts and watched what they did and tried to mimic it, and so, I'm not sure that I got it as well as they did. But it was certainly enlightening and a lot of fun to learn.\n\nVICTORIA: I appreciate that being a lifelong learner, being excited and loving to learn new things. How has that value of loving to learn new things and being a lifelong learner served you as founder and CEO at Exhale? \n\nWENDY: Being a lifelong learner is something that, I think, started early for me, not just in my career but in my life. I've loved to learn new things. Being a founder comes with lots of unexpected pivots and turns. And I think being open and available to learn new things really furthers your business as a founder and ensures that your business is placed in a position where if you need to pivot, you can learn something new, pivot in that direction, and move on. So, I think learning not just as a founder but in any profession that you do is really a key to success for a long and successful career.\n\nVICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense to me. And I'm going to ask you about your pivots. But first, tell me just how did it all get started? So, what led you to decide to start Exhale?\n\nWENDY: Yeah, well, I have a background...my graduate degree is in chronic disease epidemiology. I'm a registered respiratory therapist. I'm also a board member for the National Board of the American Lung Association. And I have really dedicated my life to dealing with those with lung disease. It is interesting in the clinical realm that you cross things that, scientifically, we know are beneficial to individuals with certain diseases. However, getting that thing out to the general population is challenging, and lung rehabilitation is one of those things. \n\nWe've known for a very long time that lung rehabilitation helps people with lung disease live a more successful life and a more enjoyable life and with less symptoms. But the availability of lung rehabilitation to people that really need it is few and far between. If you live in a big city, you usually can find an in-person rehabilitation program, but due to constraints with insurance not approving people until late stages or the inability of a program to get people in because they have long waiting lists, it really has been a struggle for physicians, for clinicians, for individuals with lung disease to actually find a program and do it. \n\nAnd so, I really wanted to solve that problem, solve the problem of the accessibility, availability, affordability of lung rehabilitation because it's so important to people with lung disease. So, really how I started is identifying the problem of here's a big problem. We can't seem to get people effectively into lung rehabilitation. So, why don't we take use of technology and create a program that is all online and available to a person in their home, on their timeline, no matter where they live? If they live in a rural community and don't have access to a big city hospital, that it's available to them. \n\nVICTORIA: Wow, that's a really fascinating story about your background and how you discovered this problem. And, of course, you know, looking at the timeline, to me, you know, September 2020 is when you're founded. Certainly, something was happening in the world that created an even larger need for lung rehabilitation than before, right?\n\nWENDY: Yeah, I had identified the problem probably...a couple of years before that; I thought, there's got to be a way, you know, there's got to be a way that we can solve this issue of people not having access. Really, the perfect storm of people being cooped up inside—they were quarantined; people couldn't get out. All of the sudden, technology was really our means to be doing a lot of things, and seeing our physicians was one of those things.\n\nIndividuals who did not have faith in online technology, or seeing physicians virtually, or going to programs virtually, all of a sudden, those fears were gone because that was really the way that you had to do things in 2020. It was the majority of the way that we talked with our loved ones. It was how we interacted with individuals, whether it was work or medical, lots of different things. \n\nAnd so, I really felt like the timing was right to go ahead and pull the trigger on this. And let's see if we can find a way...now that people are using technology in a very different way than they were two years prior to that, let's see if we can make this work and get this out to people who need it. \n\nAnd at the same time, there was a major pandemic with a viral illness that affected the lungs specifically. And so, we were going to have that many more patients that were going to need pulmonary rehabilitation on the flip side of being ill and coming out of this pandemic. So, I think it was, like I said, a perfect storm of individuals in the community receiving technology in a positive manner and then also having a pandemic that affected people with lung disease.\n\nVICTORIA: Wow, that's incredible. So, you already had identified a problem about lack of access to rehabilitation, especially in rural areas. And if people don't know that, you know, hospitals are really, even more, and so as time goes by, getting around major metropolitan areas, so people don't have access to hospitals or doctors in rural areas. And those are also probably the people who maybe need more lung rehabilitation. And then the perfect storm happened, and the pandemic and everything. It became not only the way of doing business and care–a very acceptable way of doing medical care, and also very critical in terms of, like, our national health infrastructure. \n\nWENDY: Yes, absolutely. And, you know, one other component that really propelled me into going ahead and founding this company and then figuring out a way for technology to aid us was that individual programs, even if you did live close to a program, the pandemic shut those programs down completely. Things like cardiac rehab, pulmonary rehab, were all stopped because you could not put a large amount of people in a small space together, working out, breathing hard, learning in classroom environments when they were also immunocompromised. So, the risk to the patient was very high. \n\nAnd so, those programs, even if you did live close to a program, in 2020, they were completely shut down. And due to individual struggles of hospitals as hospitals opened back up, financial struggles, clinical struggles on having enough staffing is still a really big problem in the medical community. And so, a lot of pulmonary rehabs did not come back, even if you lived in a large city.\n\nSo, there are some rehabs that are opening back up now, but there's still that initial problem that we had, even before the pandemic, of there were not enough programs. Only about 2% of the population that can use pulmonary rehab ever got to a pulmonary rehab. And then we shut some down, and it became even worse. So, we estimate now that it's less than 2% that actually get to a pulmonary rehab if they have lung disease, and certainly, because so many more people have lung disease now on this side of the pandemic.\n\nVICTORIA: Wow, yeah. That's a really incredible story, so thank you so much for sharing that. I'm curious now to get into, like, you made the decision. You found the problem. You started the company. What were some early pivots you had to make, and what surprised you about it early in the process?\n\nWENDY: I put together a team of...I have a couple of physicians that are intensivists and focused on lung disease, a pharmacist, a couple of respiratory therapists, physical therapists, Yoga expert, nurse practitioner. So, my whole team really got together, and we decided, okay, we have to make this as close to in-person rehab as humanly possible. \n\nAnd the problem initially in getting pulmonary rehab out to people, is that anyone that has attempted it before did not have that initial assessment in the program that was really based on algorithms that gave them a personalized experience so that the yoga classes or the strength training classes, or the breathing classes were specific to, one, their lung disease, because there are 26, 7 different lung diseases, and, two, that was very specific to their exercise tolerance of themselves and their lung disease. \n\nSome people are on oxygen 24/7 and can't make it from the bathroom to the kitchen without sitting down in between and catching their breath. And then, other people with lung disease they can walk a mile. So, how do you make sure that the program is based on you and you're really gaining those strides based on your exercise tolerance? So, that was probably the biggest hurdle that we had to make or really decisions surrounding that, like, how do we do this?\n\nAnd so, creating proprietary algorithms that were then going to help us was a daunting task. It began as a bunch of sticky notes on my office wall and me staring at it going, okay, how do we figure this out? I know we can figure this out. And just having iterations of that algorithm until I got it right. \n\nThe next hurdle for me was really how technology could be used to create this experience that was beneficial to the users and the clients and also that we could be proud of as clinicians because we knew that it was providing solid advice and goals, care plans for those individuals that needed it. I came from a clinical background. And so, I was not privy to all of what technology could do. And so, I had to really go out and research, how do we incorporate these things? And how do I envision, you know, the program working and maneuvering around?\n\nI initially hired a company that I thought I was communicating well what I wanted. And they were developers, so they did what I asked, but it was not scalable. And so, me I think that combination of maybe I didn't hire the right company. And then, the second thing was me not really being able to speak the technology terms and understand everything that was available so that I could outline it a little bit better. Created a product that I wasn't proud of and I knew was not scalable. \n\nAnd so, we had to really pivot and start again, hire a new company, and really sit down with them and say, \"Okay, I want you to understand my sticky notes on my office wall. And let's really get this down before we begin to build.\" So, I would say probably that was my first big pivot moment. And the ups and downs of being a founder are endless. And that was definitely one of those, like, really high points where we're, okay, you know, we're at a point where I believe we can launch and then the low of realizing it is not what I wanted it to be. So, I think that was the first one.\n\nVICTORIA: I appreciate you sharing that. And I think that if the first product you build is something you're not proud of, then you're at least doing it right. You got something out there [laughs]. And you probably learned so much from that process, and it sounds like you applied those learnings to your next phase of the project. And now you've built something that you are proud of. \n\nWENDY: Yeah. I think a founder will continue no matter...and technology certainly is this. But I think this applies to really any business, whether it's a brick-and-mortar or anything online business. I believe that you are constantly improving. You're constantly thinking of, you know, what's version 2 going to look like? What's version 3 going to look like? What's version 25 going to look like? It's definitely a work in progress. \n\nAnd, you know, having something that you're very proud of, that you worked hard on, and collaborated, and really researched a lot I think that's where we are right now. We're very proud of...I am very proud of this program. And we're seeing some fantastic results. And people who have very severe lung disease and, all of a sudden, they can sit in the floor and play with their grandchildren, or they can go out and get the mail. Just to walk to the end of the block was a big deal for them but now they can do that. \n\nI hear stories all the time. Our clients love to talk to us about, \"Hey, guess what I did?\" And I love to hear those stories because it means what we created did the job that we created it for. And so, that's very satisfying. It doesn't mean that we won't do pivoting in the future. We certainly will. But as we see those roadblocks, or as we see the hurdles that we have to cross to make sure that this program stays true to what we want it to be, we certainly will find a way over, around, or through those roadblocks to make that happen.\n\nVICTORIA: You can hear your commitment to your mission and your drive to solve this problem in the way that you talk about it and the iterations that you're willing to keep solving it. And you mentioned that, you know, one of the issues you saw in the first iteration was about scaling. So, I was wondering if you could share more about that. Like, what did you see that made you think, oh, this isn't going to scale? Was it a technical issue? Was it the algorithm the way it was working? Or was there something else that made you think, oh, we got to redo this whole thing? [laughs]\n\nWENDY: Yeah, you know, the algorithm was working great, fantastic. It places individuals in classes that they need to be. It's very beneficial. The beta tests on our clients were actually coming out with individuals that were at least doubling their strength in a 12-week period of time, which is really unheard of. Usually, you shoot for 20 to 25% increase in their strength and ability to do things. And so, early on, we were so excited because we thought this is working. And coming out of the gates, out of our beta tests, we thought it is doing clinically what we want it to do. \n\nNow, what we saw was that the process was time-consuming on our side, on the business side, so ensuring that those clients that we looked at what they were doing, that we made sure and contacted them, and did those things. Our system was very labor-intensive. So, to get into the system and actually see what an individual person was doing, was difficult. We didn't have auto alerts that alerted our team, \"Hey, this person is struggling today and probably needs a call.\" \n\nSo, those types of things were what we really decided this is not going to be scalable. And they were not easy fixes in the system that we had created. And so, that's really why we chose to pivot and go a different direction because there was just no way to scale it because each individual client was taking so much time that it really was not feasible to be able to gain a lot of clientele without putting more resources in place than we were actually being paid.\n\nVICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. Like, we are providers. You need to be able to make it less work for them [chuckles] and still be able to provide that quality of care to the individuals. So, it's really interesting you were able to solve for that in your next iteration.\n\nMid-Roll Ad:\n\nWhen starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment but that you don’t have all year to do extended research.\n\nIn just a few weeks, thoughtbot’s Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We’ll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts.\n\nMaximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprint\n\nVICTORIA: As a company providing health and medical services, how have you navigated the industry? Clearly, you have a big background in health. But how did you get to make your business viable, considering all the bureaucratic nature of the American healthcare system?\n\nWENDY: [chuckles] Really, a part of our mission at Exhale is making pulmonary rehab accessible and affordable, and those two things are difficult in our healthcare system right now. Affordability for pulmonary rehab...just a background in what happens if you go to an in-person program, in-person programs, if you are lucky enough to have one available, and get through the waiting list, and your insurance approves you, then each time you go in, which is usually 2 to 3 times a week over an 8 to 12 week period of time, insurance will pay a portion of that, but you will have a copay each time. And a lot of times, the copays range between $15 and $30 time period. \n\nSo, individuals who are on a fixed income, because we're dealing with a lot of people who are older and on Medicare, probably have a very fixed income, they cannot afford that. And often, the attrition in those programs is a big problem because, one, getting a lung patient who is carting oxygen and can't walk very far, can't walk to the end of the block, but you're asking them to park in a parking lot, walk all the way into a hospital, up the stairs, and get into the program. They're exhausted by the time or can't do that. And then they have to pay a copay each time they go in. \n\nAnd so, we wanted our program to be affordable and accessible. So, we created it where we did not accept insurance at first at all. Insurance does not cover online programs right now. And so we priced ours at the price of a copay per month. So, for the cost of an individual to go one week at an in-person program, they can do our 12-week program and get all the way through. So, that was really important to us to ensure that accessibility, and availability, affordability were all a part of our program and our mission. \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, it's interesting that insurance doesn't cover online services in a time when a lot of things are [laughs] online.\n\nWENDY: It is really confounding that a service like this is not covered by insurance. Now, we did recently...there is a remote therapeutic monitoring that was available through CMS, added it to their care in 2022, to their fee schedule. We have just implemented our remote therapeutic monitoring side of our lung program. And it is specifically for those with lung disease. \n\nWe help their offices, the patient's physician's office, to monitor these patients on a daily basis and then give them feedback on whether or not the patients are taking their medication, and how well they slept, and whether or not they're feeling well that day. And that way, the physician's office can intervene faster, and it keeps those individuals out of the hospital. \n\nA bonus of the Exhale program is that our lung rehab comes free to those who are enrolled in remote therapeutic monitoring. So, if you are a part of our program, then you will receive that service and the benefits of having a rehab program to you. And that's just one more way that we're making it accessible, available, and affordable to people.\n\nVICTORIA: That's really interesting and leads me to my next question, which is, what are some of the biggest hurdles that you see ahead of you in the next six months? \n\nWENDY: The biggest hurdle probably is, where is insurance going? Will it begin to cover it in the future? Because that is super important to getting people the care that they need. And then, how will Medicare and other insurance providers decide to change things? Usually, January 1st of every single year, they put out their new fee schedules. In some years, they just completely cut off services altogether. \n\nAnd so, what I would like to see is expansion of online services becoming reimbursable through insurance companies, and certainly that they see the value of having a service like this that is incredibly affordable, that is getting fantastic outcomes for people with severe lung disease, and giving them a better life, and keeping them out of the hospital, that they see the value in reimbursing programs like ours so that we are sustainable in the future. \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. It seems like a win-win for everyone because it keeps your healthcare costs down when you're not going to the hospital and probably helps with all other kinds of health...like you mentioned before, how if your lungs are healthy and you're able to move, it makes your overall body much more healthier. So, what is the wind in your sails? What keeps you going with the program? \n\nWENDY: As a founder, there are always times whenever you're like, okay, what are we doing here? Like, this is so hard. It's [laughs], you know, the ups and downs. And what are we doing? Maybe I just stop this and go back to the clinic. But ultimately, I think what keeps me going is hearing the stories of our clients and how much this program has affected their day-to-day life, and how appreciative they are that we have created something that they can do from home and when they did not have this service available to them previously. \n\nI spoke to someone just on Monday, and he was talking about how he had been in a difficult position. And he said, \"I just channeled those lessons that you taught us, and I did my breathing techniques. And I got through it. And I just am so thankful that you guys had taught me how to do that because I don't know if I would have gotten through that situation.\" And those are the stories that we love to hear. \n\nWe love hearing, \"Hey, I was able to play with my grandchildren on Thanksgiving because of your program,\" or \"I was able to cook for myself, and that's the first time that I have cooked for myself in three years because I can't stand there that long without being too short of breath.\" Those stories and talking to our clients it's why I keep doing this. It's why I get up every day and go, okay, whatever problem that we find, we're going to solve it and make this company viable long term because of those outcomes that we're seeing.\n\nVICTORIA: And what a great way to know that it does matter when you're hearing those stories. And for those individual people, that's a huge life-changing difference. \n\nWENDY: Yeah, it certainly is. And it, really, you know, in the grand scheme of things, you don't think about how important it is to just be able to walk from one room to another or be able to clean your bathtub or go get groceries. I mean, those little tasks you don't think about until you are so sick or debilitated that you can't do those things. And it means the difference in having a life that they love to live and having, you know, the resources that they need to be able to live that life. \n\nThose stories definitely keep us going and will keep us going as long as we possibly can. Because we really truly, for those that are utilizing our service, believe that we're helping them reach their goals and beyond and live the best life that they can possibly live with lung disease.\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that's really awesome. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing that with us today. Do you have any questions for me or for thoughtbot about anything?\n\nWENDY: You know, I think the big question for us is, do you have any users out there? Do you have anyone that is listening to this program right now that needs lung rehabilitation? Or are you a clinician, or do you know a clinician that deals with people with lung disease? We would absolutely love to talk to them and provide our services, and tell you how our outcomes are looking with the patients that we've served so far. So, I guess the big question is, do you know anyone with lung disease, and would you be willing to send them our way?\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that's incredible. I certainly have some people in my mind who I'm like, oh, you should really introduce to this group of folks over here. I love that that's what you're working on. And is there anything else that you'd like to promote today?\n\nWENDY: Just in general, pulmonary rehabilitation is so important. And if you have an in-person program that's near you, I want to promote them, too. I want you to know that pulmonary rehab is an incredible service. And the outcomes, we have so much research that says if you do an 8 to 12-week program, that you will gain benefits from going through the program. So, whether it's our program, whether it's an in-person program, or a program at a clinic that you go to, I would just encourage anybody to take part in pulmonary rehab if you have lung disease. \n\nAnd certainly, if you're new to lung disease, if you're a COVID recoverer that has some fibrotic changes in your lungs that you need help navigating, then reach out to those professionals that are in pulmonary rehabilitation because they can help you definitely. And Exhale would always love to serve those, whether post-COVID, or asthma, COPD, fibrosis, pulmonary hypertension, all of those lung diseases. We are here for you, as well as other clinicians that are in this arena. \n\nVICTORIA: One person I'm thinking of works with people who are vaping a lot, really high vaping community. And I'm sure [inaudible 30:48] [laughs], yeah, I hear that in your voice.\n\nWENDY: Yeah. [laughs]\n\nVICTORIA: So that's someone I was like, maybe that'd be a good program for her to share with the people she works with because yeah...and the other...this might be, you know, I know this is a disease issue, but in San Diego, we have a lot of freedivers and people who train holding their breath for a long time. And they've been trying to get me to do that. And so, I was like, well, maybe [chuckles] I could try it and just increase my lung capacity and overall be healthy, too. \n\nWENDY: Yeah, that's a great program, too. It is interesting, too, to see a person's lung function. We have pulmonary lung function diagnostic tests that can be done in a clinic. In the pre and post-diver training, yeah, lung function changes quite a bit in your ability to expand your lungs, hold your breath, and maneuver that oxygen across the membrane so that you are able to sustain longer. So yeah, that's really interesting.\n\nAnd your point of vape, certainly, we have smoking cessation programs that are involved in our lung rehabilitation. If you smoke, then you get some of those classes about how do I quit smoking? But vaping is becoming a really large issue. I have given several talks in high schools recently. And certainly, with my work with the American Lung Association, American Lung Association does a fantastic job of creating supplemental materials for individuals who, you know, are working with people in that arena. And so, they've really focused on the vape epidemic recently. \n\nAnd so, if you are dealing with anybody, and especially the youth population, there is a wonderful toolkit that the American Lung Association has available. You can download it. There are some videos or some, like, handouts and stuff like that. Those programs are helping, especially in our schools, because there is a true epidemic with vaping right now. And, unfortunately, when the vape industry created those items, they kind of took a key out of the book from the cigarette companies and promoted it as some, you know, health benefit. \n\nAnd what we're finding on the flip side in all of the diagnostic testing is it's just as bad as cigarettes. And it's creating a really big problem, especially if they're starting early, 14-15 years old, and their lungs are not developed all the way yet. It is not just water vapor, like they say. It is some very serious, toxic chemicals that they're inhaling, and it has some long-term effects that are going to create some fibrotic changes in the lungs long term. So, as you mentioned, you know, the vape industry, I'm definitely a proponent of preventing people from getting vape products and preventing youth from having access to that.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, absolutely. It's a big problem. And I'm excited to see how Exhale and other people are working together to kind of get that message out and solve those problems. So, I appreciate you coming on this show today and sharing all of that with me.\n\nWENDY: I would really love to say thank you so much for considering me and considering Exhale for your program. I always love an opportunity to talk about it. You can tell that I'm very passionate about Exhale and what we're providing, and so thanks so much for letting me come on today. I really appreciate it. It was wonderful to meet you. \n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful to meet you as well. And I really enjoyed hearing your story and hearing all about the great work you're doing. \n\nSo, you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. \n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.\n\nAD:\n\nDid you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.\n\nMore info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.Special Guest: Wendy Lawson.Sponsored By:thoughtbot: When starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment, but that you don’t have all year to do extended research. \r\n\r\nIn just a few weeks, thoughtbot’s Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We’ll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts. \r\n\r\nMaximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprint","content_html":"Wendy Lawson is the Founder and CEO of Exhale Lung Rehabilitation, a company offering online lung rehabilitation and remote therapeutic monitoring services. Wendy's extensive background in chronic disease epidemiology, respiratory therapy, and her role with the American Lung Association have been pivotal in her mission to address the gaps in lung rehabilitation accessibility. She discusses the challenges faced in making lung rehabilitation widely available, especially in rural areas, and the exacerbated need for such services during the COVID-19 pandemic. Exhale leverages technology to offer personalized rehabilitation programs, making them accessible to a wider audience regardless of their geographic location. This approach has significantly impacted the quality of life for individuals with lung diseases, especially in a time when remote services have become more crucial than ever.
\n\nThe conversation also touches upon the technical and business aspects of running Exhale where Wendy candidly shares the challenges and pivots in the early stages of the company, from developing proprietary algorithms to realizing the need for a scalable and efficient technological platform. This journey of continuous improvement and adaptation is a testament to her commitment to her mission. The episode concludes with a discussion on the future of lung rehabilitation, the potential changes in healthcare policies, and Wendy's unwavering commitment to improving the lives of those with lung diseases.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Wendy Lawson, Founder and CEO of Exhale Lung Rehabilitation, which provides online lung rehabilitation and remote therapeutic monitoring services. Wendy, thank you for joining us.
\n\nWENDY: Thank you so much for having me.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. And we like to start the show with a little warm-up introduction about ourselves. Is there anything exciting happening in your life recently that you'd like to share with our audience?
\n\nWENDY: You know, I think the biggest event that has happened for my husband and I and our son and daughter is the marriage of our daughter a couple of weekends ago. So, we're really coming down off of all of the events that surrounded that wedding, and we're so excited for them to start their new life.
\n\nVICTORIA: That sounds like a big activity, lots of family life all happening at a time when you are also founder and CEO. So, within that time for your wedding, did you make time or have to learn any new skills for putting on these events?
\n\nWENDY: You know, it was really interesting. I did have to do a couple of skills. First of all, planning a wedding is just madness. I knew that it was going to be a big task, but after really having hands on and doing it, it was a lot. It was really fun to learn some new things.
\n\nAnd one of the new things that I learned is really flower arrangements. I did some flower arrangements for some of the tables in a couple of the events that surrounded the wedding. And so, that was really fun, new skill. I love to learn new things. That was enlightening and fun. And I'm glad I don't have to do that as a job.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, so I'm curious, how did you approach learning this new skill? What was your method?
\n\nWENDY: My entire life I've loved to learn new things. And I probably approach each of those the same way, and that is get a vision for what I want, or what I want to learn, or what I want it to look like, and then do some research, find people who have done it themselves. Ask advice.
\n\nOf course, YouTube is fantastic now for things like DIY. So, I definitely went to YouTube and found some experts and watched what they did and tried to mimic it, and so, I'm not sure that I got it as well as they did. But it was certainly enlightening and a lot of fun to learn.
\n\nVICTORIA: I appreciate that being a lifelong learner, being excited and loving to learn new things. How has that value of loving to learn new things and being a lifelong learner served you as founder and CEO at Exhale?
\n\nWENDY: Being a lifelong learner is something that, I think, started early for me, not just in my career but in my life. I've loved to learn new things. Being a founder comes with lots of unexpected pivots and turns. And I think being open and available to learn new things really furthers your business as a founder and ensures that your business is placed in a position where if you need to pivot, you can learn something new, pivot in that direction, and move on. So, I think learning not just as a founder but in any profession that you do is really a key to success for a long and successful career.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense to me. And I'm going to ask you about your pivots. But first, tell me just how did it all get started? So, what led you to decide to start Exhale?
\n\nWENDY: Yeah, well, I have a background...my graduate degree is in chronic disease epidemiology. I'm a registered respiratory therapist. I'm also a board member for the National Board of the American Lung Association. And I have really dedicated my life to dealing with those with lung disease. It is interesting in the clinical realm that you cross things that, scientifically, we know are beneficial to individuals with certain diseases. However, getting that thing out to the general population is challenging, and lung rehabilitation is one of those things.
\n\nWe've known for a very long time that lung rehabilitation helps people with lung disease live a more successful life and a more enjoyable life and with less symptoms. But the availability of lung rehabilitation to people that really need it is few and far between. If you live in a big city, you usually can find an in-person rehabilitation program, but due to constraints with insurance not approving people until late stages or the inability of a program to get people in because they have long waiting lists, it really has been a struggle for physicians, for clinicians, for individuals with lung disease to actually find a program and do it.
\n\nAnd so, I really wanted to solve that problem, solve the problem of the accessibility, availability, affordability of lung rehabilitation because it's so important to people with lung disease. So, really how I started is identifying the problem of here's a big problem. We can't seem to get people effectively into lung rehabilitation. So, why don't we take use of technology and create a program that is all online and available to a person in their home, on their timeline, no matter where they live? If they live in a rural community and don't have access to a big city hospital, that it's available to them.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow, that's a really fascinating story about your background and how you discovered this problem. And, of course, you know, looking at the timeline, to me, you know, September 2020 is when you're founded. Certainly, something was happening in the world that created an even larger need for lung rehabilitation than before, right?
\n\nWENDY: Yeah, I had identified the problem probably...a couple of years before that; I thought, there's got to be a way, you know, there's got to be a way that we can solve this issue of people not having access. Really, the perfect storm of people being cooped up inside—they were quarantined; people couldn't get out. All of the sudden, technology was really our means to be doing a lot of things, and seeing our physicians was one of those things.
\n\nIndividuals who did not have faith in online technology, or seeing physicians virtually, or going to programs virtually, all of a sudden, those fears were gone because that was really the way that you had to do things in 2020. It was the majority of the way that we talked with our loved ones. It was how we interacted with individuals, whether it was work or medical, lots of different things.
\n\nAnd so, I really felt like the timing was right to go ahead and pull the trigger on this. And let's see if we can find a way...now that people are using technology in a very different way than they were two years prior to that, let's see if we can make this work and get this out to people who need it.
\n\nAnd at the same time, there was a major pandemic with a viral illness that affected the lungs specifically. And so, we were going to have that many more patients that were going to need pulmonary rehabilitation on the flip side of being ill and coming out of this pandemic. So, I think it was, like I said, a perfect storm of individuals in the community receiving technology in a positive manner and then also having a pandemic that affected people with lung disease.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow, that's incredible. So, you already had identified a problem about lack of access to rehabilitation, especially in rural areas. And if people don't know that, you know, hospitals are really, even more, and so as time goes by, getting around major metropolitan areas, so people don't have access to hospitals or doctors in rural areas. And those are also probably the people who maybe need more lung rehabilitation. And then the perfect storm happened, and the pandemic and everything. It became not only the way of doing business and care–a very acceptable way of doing medical care, and also very critical in terms of, like, our national health infrastructure.
\n\nWENDY: Yes, absolutely. And, you know, one other component that really propelled me into going ahead and founding this company and then figuring out a way for technology to aid us was that individual programs, even if you did live close to a program, the pandemic shut those programs down completely. Things like cardiac rehab, pulmonary rehab, were all stopped because you could not put a large amount of people in a small space together, working out, breathing hard, learning in classroom environments when they were also immunocompromised. So, the risk to the patient was very high.
\n\nAnd so, those programs, even if you did live close to a program, in 2020, they were completely shut down. And due to individual struggles of hospitals as hospitals opened back up, financial struggles, clinical struggles on having enough staffing is still a really big problem in the medical community. And so, a lot of pulmonary rehabs did not come back, even if you lived in a large city.
\n\nSo, there are some rehabs that are opening back up now, but there's still that initial problem that we had, even before the pandemic, of there were not enough programs. Only about 2% of the population that can use pulmonary rehab ever got to a pulmonary rehab. And then we shut some down, and it became even worse. So, we estimate now that it's less than 2% that actually get to a pulmonary rehab if they have lung disease, and certainly, because so many more people have lung disease now on this side of the pandemic.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow, yeah. That's a really incredible story, so thank you so much for sharing that. I'm curious now to get into, like, you made the decision. You found the problem. You started the company. What were some early pivots you had to make, and what surprised you about it early in the process?
\n\nWENDY: I put together a team of...I have a couple of physicians that are intensivists and focused on lung disease, a pharmacist, a couple of respiratory therapists, physical therapists, Yoga expert, nurse practitioner. So, my whole team really got together, and we decided, okay, we have to make this as close to in-person rehab as humanly possible.
\n\nAnd the problem initially in getting pulmonary rehab out to people, is that anyone that has attempted it before did not have that initial assessment in the program that was really based on algorithms that gave them a personalized experience so that the yoga classes or the strength training classes, or the breathing classes were specific to, one, their lung disease, because there are 26, 7 different lung diseases, and, two, that was very specific to their exercise tolerance of themselves and their lung disease.
\n\nSome people are on oxygen 24/7 and can't make it from the bathroom to the kitchen without sitting down in between and catching their breath. And then, other people with lung disease they can walk a mile. So, how do you make sure that the program is based on you and you're really gaining those strides based on your exercise tolerance? So, that was probably the biggest hurdle that we had to make or really decisions surrounding that, like, how do we do this?
\n\nAnd so, creating proprietary algorithms that were then going to help us was a daunting task. It began as a bunch of sticky notes on my office wall and me staring at it going, okay, how do we figure this out? I know we can figure this out. And just having iterations of that algorithm until I got it right.
\n\nThe next hurdle for me was really how technology could be used to create this experience that was beneficial to the users and the clients and also that we could be proud of as clinicians because we knew that it was providing solid advice and goals, care plans for those individuals that needed it. I came from a clinical background. And so, I was not privy to all of what technology could do. And so, I had to really go out and research, how do we incorporate these things? And how do I envision, you know, the program working and maneuvering around?
\n\nI initially hired a company that I thought I was communicating well what I wanted. And they were developers, so they did what I asked, but it was not scalable. And so, me I think that combination of maybe I didn't hire the right company. And then, the second thing was me not really being able to speak the technology terms and understand everything that was available so that I could outline it a little bit better. Created a product that I wasn't proud of and I knew was not scalable.
\n\nAnd so, we had to really pivot and start again, hire a new company, and really sit down with them and say, "Okay, I want you to understand my sticky notes on my office wall. And let's really get this down before we begin to build." So, I would say probably that was my first big pivot moment. And the ups and downs of being a founder are endless. And that was definitely one of those, like, really high points where we're, okay, you know, we're at a point where I believe we can launch and then the low of realizing it is not what I wanted it to be. So, I think that was the first one.
\n\nVICTORIA: I appreciate you sharing that. And I think that if the first product you build is something you're not proud of, then you're at least doing it right. You got something out there [laughs]. And you probably learned so much from that process, and it sounds like you applied those learnings to your next phase of the project. And now you've built something that you are proud of.
\n\nWENDY: Yeah. I think a founder will continue no matter...and technology certainly is this. But I think this applies to really any business, whether it's a brick-and-mortar or anything online business. I believe that you are constantly improving. You're constantly thinking of, you know, what's version 2 going to look like? What's version 3 going to look like? What's version 25 going to look like? It's definitely a work in progress.
\n\nAnd, you know, having something that you're very proud of, that you worked hard on, and collaborated, and really researched a lot I think that's where we are right now. We're very proud of...I am very proud of this program. And we're seeing some fantastic results. And people who have very severe lung disease and, all of a sudden, they can sit in the floor and play with their grandchildren, or they can go out and get the mail. Just to walk to the end of the block was a big deal for them but now they can do that.
\n\nI hear stories all the time. Our clients love to talk to us about, "Hey, guess what I did?" And I love to hear those stories because it means what we created did the job that we created it for. And so, that's very satisfying. It doesn't mean that we won't do pivoting in the future. We certainly will. But as we see those roadblocks, or as we see the hurdles that we have to cross to make sure that this program stays true to what we want it to be, we certainly will find a way over, around, or through those roadblocks to make that happen.
\n\nVICTORIA: You can hear your commitment to your mission and your drive to solve this problem in the way that you talk about it and the iterations that you're willing to keep solving it. And you mentioned that, you know, one of the issues you saw in the first iteration was about scaling. So, I was wondering if you could share more about that. Like, what did you see that made you think, oh, this isn't going to scale? Was it a technical issue? Was it the algorithm the way it was working? Or was there something else that made you think, oh, we got to redo this whole thing? [laughs]
\n\nWENDY: Yeah, you know, the algorithm was working great, fantastic. It places individuals in classes that they need to be. It's very beneficial. The beta tests on our clients were actually coming out with individuals that were at least doubling their strength in a 12-week period of time, which is really unheard of. Usually, you shoot for 20 to 25% increase in their strength and ability to do things. And so, early on, we were so excited because we thought this is working. And coming out of the gates, out of our beta tests, we thought it is doing clinically what we want it to do.
\n\nNow, what we saw was that the process was time-consuming on our side, on the business side, so ensuring that those clients that we looked at what they were doing, that we made sure and contacted them, and did those things. Our system was very labor-intensive. So, to get into the system and actually see what an individual person was doing, was difficult. We didn't have auto alerts that alerted our team, "Hey, this person is struggling today and probably needs a call."
\n\nSo, those types of things were what we really decided this is not going to be scalable. And they were not easy fixes in the system that we had created. And so, that's really why we chose to pivot and go a different direction because there was just no way to scale it because each individual client was taking so much time that it really was not feasible to be able to gain a lot of clientele without putting more resources in place than we were actually being paid.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. Like, we are providers. You need to be able to make it less work for them [chuckles] and still be able to provide that quality of care to the individuals. So, it's really interesting you were able to solve for that in your next iteration.
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\n\nVICTORIA: As a company providing health and medical services, how have you navigated the industry? Clearly, you have a big background in health. But how did you get to make your business viable, considering all the bureaucratic nature of the American healthcare system?
\n\nWENDY: [chuckles] Really, a part of our mission at Exhale is making pulmonary rehab accessible and affordable, and those two things are difficult in our healthcare system right now. Affordability for pulmonary rehab...just a background in what happens if you go to an in-person program, in-person programs, if you are lucky enough to have one available, and get through the waiting list, and your insurance approves you, then each time you go in, which is usually 2 to 3 times a week over an 8 to 12 week period of time, insurance will pay a portion of that, but you will have a copay each time. And a lot of times, the copays range between $15 and $30 time period.
\n\nSo, individuals who are on a fixed income, because we're dealing with a lot of people who are older and on Medicare, probably have a very fixed income, they cannot afford that. And often, the attrition in those programs is a big problem because, one, getting a lung patient who is carting oxygen and can't walk very far, can't walk to the end of the block, but you're asking them to park in a parking lot, walk all the way into a hospital, up the stairs, and get into the program. They're exhausted by the time or can't do that. And then they have to pay a copay each time they go in.
\n\nAnd so, we wanted our program to be affordable and accessible. So, we created it where we did not accept insurance at first at all. Insurance does not cover online programs right now. And so we priced ours at the price of a copay per month. So, for the cost of an individual to go one week at an in-person program, they can do our 12-week program and get all the way through. So, that was really important to us to ensure that accessibility, and availability, affordability were all a part of our program and our mission.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, it's interesting that insurance doesn't cover online services in a time when a lot of things are [laughs] online.
\n\nWENDY: It is really confounding that a service like this is not covered by insurance. Now, we did recently...there is a remote therapeutic monitoring that was available through CMS, added it to their care in 2022, to their fee schedule. We have just implemented our remote therapeutic monitoring side of our lung program. And it is specifically for those with lung disease.
\n\nWe help their offices, the patient's physician's office, to monitor these patients on a daily basis and then give them feedback on whether or not the patients are taking their medication, and how well they slept, and whether or not they're feeling well that day. And that way, the physician's office can intervene faster, and it keeps those individuals out of the hospital.
\n\nA bonus of the Exhale program is that our lung rehab comes free to those who are enrolled in remote therapeutic monitoring. So, if you are a part of our program, then you will receive that service and the benefits of having a rehab program to you. And that's just one more way that we're making it accessible, available, and affordable to people.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really interesting and leads me to my next question, which is, what are some of the biggest hurdles that you see ahead of you in the next six months?
\n\nWENDY: The biggest hurdle probably is, where is insurance going? Will it begin to cover it in the future? Because that is super important to getting people the care that they need. And then, how will Medicare and other insurance providers decide to change things? Usually, January 1st of every single year, they put out their new fee schedules. In some years, they just completely cut off services altogether.
\n\nAnd so, what I would like to see is expansion of online services becoming reimbursable through insurance companies, and certainly that they see the value of having a service like this that is incredibly affordable, that is getting fantastic outcomes for people with severe lung disease, and giving them a better life, and keeping them out of the hospital, that they see the value in reimbursing programs like ours so that we are sustainable in the future.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. It seems like a win-win for everyone because it keeps your healthcare costs down when you're not going to the hospital and probably helps with all other kinds of health...like you mentioned before, how if your lungs are healthy and you're able to move, it makes your overall body much more healthier. So, what is the wind in your sails? What keeps you going with the program?
\n\nWENDY: As a founder, there are always times whenever you're like, okay, what are we doing here? Like, this is so hard. It's [laughs], you know, the ups and downs. And what are we doing? Maybe I just stop this and go back to the clinic. But ultimately, I think what keeps me going is hearing the stories of our clients and how much this program has affected their day-to-day life, and how appreciative they are that we have created something that they can do from home and when they did not have this service available to them previously.
\n\nI spoke to someone just on Monday, and he was talking about how he had been in a difficult position. And he said, "I just channeled those lessons that you taught us, and I did my breathing techniques. And I got through it. And I just am so thankful that you guys had taught me how to do that because I don't know if I would have gotten through that situation." And those are the stories that we love to hear.
\n\nWe love hearing, "Hey, I was able to play with my grandchildren on Thanksgiving because of your program," or "I was able to cook for myself, and that's the first time that I have cooked for myself in three years because I can't stand there that long without being too short of breath." Those stories and talking to our clients it's why I keep doing this. It's why I get up every day and go, okay, whatever problem that we find, we're going to solve it and make this company viable long term because of those outcomes that we're seeing.
\n\nVICTORIA: And what a great way to know that it does matter when you're hearing those stories. And for those individual people, that's a huge life-changing difference.
\n\nWENDY: Yeah, it certainly is. And it, really, you know, in the grand scheme of things, you don't think about how important it is to just be able to walk from one room to another or be able to clean your bathtub or go get groceries. I mean, those little tasks you don't think about until you are so sick or debilitated that you can't do those things. And it means the difference in having a life that they love to live and having, you know, the resources that they need to be able to live that life.
\n\nThose stories definitely keep us going and will keep us going as long as we possibly can. Because we really truly, for those that are utilizing our service, believe that we're helping them reach their goals and beyond and live the best life that they can possibly live with lung disease.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that's really awesome. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing that with us today. Do you have any questions for me or for thoughtbot about anything?
\n\nWENDY: You know, I think the big question for us is, do you have any users out there? Do you have anyone that is listening to this program right now that needs lung rehabilitation? Or are you a clinician, or do you know a clinician that deals with people with lung disease? We would absolutely love to talk to them and provide our services, and tell you how our outcomes are looking with the patients that we've served so far. So, I guess the big question is, do you know anyone with lung disease, and would you be willing to send them our way?
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that's incredible. I certainly have some people in my mind who I'm like, oh, you should really introduce to this group of folks over here. I love that that's what you're working on. And is there anything else that you'd like to promote today?
\n\nWENDY: Just in general, pulmonary rehabilitation is so important. And if you have an in-person program that's near you, I want to promote them, too. I want you to know that pulmonary rehab is an incredible service. And the outcomes, we have so much research that says if you do an 8 to 12-week program, that you will gain benefits from going through the program. So, whether it's our program, whether it's an in-person program, or a program at a clinic that you go to, I would just encourage anybody to take part in pulmonary rehab if you have lung disease.
\n\nAnd certainly, if you're new to lung disease, if you're a COVID recoverer that has some fibrotic changes in your lungs that you need help navigating, then reach out to those professionals that are in pulmonary rehabilitation because they can help you definitely. And Exhale would always love to serve those, whether post-COVID, or asthma, COPD, fibrosis, pulmonary hypertension, all of those lung diseases. We are here for you, as well as other clinicians that are in this arena.
\n\nVICTORIA: One person I'm thinking of works with people who are vaping a lot, really high vaping community. And I'm sure [inaudible 30:48] [laughs], yeah, I hear that in your voice.
\n\nWENDY: Yeah. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: So that's someone I was like, maybe that'd be a good program for her to share with the people she works with because yeah...and the other...this might be, you know, I know this is a disease issue, but in San Diego, we have a lot of freedivers and people who train holding their breath for a long time. And they've been trying to get me to do that. And so, I was like, well, maybe [chuckles] I could try it and just increase my lung capacity and overall be healthy, too.
\n\nWENDY: Yeah, that's a great program, too. It is interesting, too, to see a person's lung function. We have pulmonary lung function diagnostic tests that can be done in a clinic. In the pre and post-diver training, yeah, lung function changes quite a bit in your ability to expand your lungs, hold your breath, and maneuver that oxygen across the membrane so that you are able to sustain longer. So yeah, that's really interesting.
\n\nAnd your point of vape, certainly, we have smoking cessation programs that are involved in our lung rehabilitation. If you smoke, then you get some of those classes about how do I quit smoking? But vaping is becoming a really large issue. I have given several talks in high schools recently. And certainly, with my work with the American Lung Association, American Lung Association does a fantastic job of creating supplemental materials for individuals who, you know, are working with people in that arena. And so, they've really focused on the vape epidemic recently.
\n\nAnd so, if you are dealing with anybody, and especially the youth population, there is a wonderful toolkit that the American Lung Association has available. You can download it. There are some videos or some, like, handouts and stuff like that. Those programs are helping, especially in our schools, because there is a true epidemic with vaping right now. And, unfortunately, when the vape industry created those items, they kind of took a key out of the book from the cigarette companies and promoted it as some, you know, health benefit.
\n\nAnd what we're finding on the flip side in all of the diagnostic testing is it's just as bad as cigarettes. And it's creating a really big problem, especially if they're starting early, 14-15 years old, and their lungs are not developed all the way yet. It is not just water vapor, like they say. It is some very serious, toxic chemicals that they're inhaling, and it has some long-term effects that are going to create some fibrotic changes in the lungs long term. So, as you mentioned, you know, the vape industry, I'm definitely a proponent of preventing people from getting vape products and preventing youth from having access to that.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, absolutely. It's a big problem. And I'm excited to see how Exhale and other people are working together to kind of get that message out and solve those problems. So, I appreciate you coming on this show today and sharing all of that with me.
\n\nWENDY: I would really love to say thank you so much for considering me and considering Exhale for your program. I always love an opportunity to talk about it. You can tell that I'm very passionate about Exhale and what we're providing, and so thanks so much for letting me come on today. I really appreciate it. It was wonderful to meet you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful to meet you as well. And I really enjoyed hearing your story and hearing all about the great work you're doing.
\n\nSo, you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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Mac Reddin is the CEO of Commsor. He discusses Commsor's evolution from community-led growth software to a go-to-network model, emphasizing the importance of various overlapping networks in a company's ecosystem. He shares his journey from running a Minecraft-based company as a teenager to founding Commsor, which initially began as a newsletter and evolved into a community and then a product.
\n\nMac stresses the effectiveness of authentic community building and relationship-based growth over traditional sales and marketing strategies. He criticizes cold calling and email tactics, advocating for genuine interactions and relationship-building. Commsor’s approach, including personal onboarding of every user and fostering a company culture where employees are encouraged to express their individuality and interests, has shown success and satisfaction internally and in the market.
\n\nChad reflects on his experiences at thoughtbot, aligning with Reddin's perspective on community and user-centric approaches. He emphasizes trust and freedom within his team, allowing for authentic individual contributions to the company's growth and reputation. Together, they discuss the importance of personal connections in business and how modern sales tactics might need reevaluation in favor of more genuine, relationship-based approaches.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me as co-host today is Sally Ladrach, Revenue Enablement Manager at thoughtbot, great company I've heard of. Sally, thank you for joining.
\n\nSALLY: Yeah, thanks for having me on.
\n\nCHAD: And also joining us today is Mac Reddin, Founder and CEO of Commsor, which builds tools to help individuals and companies of all sizes grow faster, more authentically, and more sustainably through the power of go-to-network. Mac, thanks for joining us.
\n\nMAC: Thanks for having me.
\n\nCHAD: Mac, can you tell us a little bit more about what Commsor is and how you sort of arrived at creating it?
\n\nMAC: I struggle to do that every time someone asks me. It's always, like, a slightly different answer. So, we're about four years old now. But we kind of pivoted, soft pivoted, depending on how you want to look at it, into what we're doing now at the beginning of this year. So, we're kind of not that new and very new, depending on what perspective you look at.
\n\nWe were originally building what we called community-led growth software. So, we were helping companies measure their community as an intentional part of their go-to-market initiative. And there's a whole rabbit hole on why we changed, and how we changed, and how we ended up where we are now.
\n\nBut I think go-to-network is sort of an evolution of community-led from this realization that companies don't have a singular community. They might have a, you know, a forum, or a Slack, or a community manager, and there's, like, it's very easy to be like, that is their community. But in reality, there's influencers, investors, creators, advisors, personal brands, executives, champions, customers, community members, like, all these different overlapping networks, hence go-to-network, that actually make up this sort of ecosystem that enables a company to thrive.
\n\nCHAD: Now, did you have a community, or, like, did it grow from something, or did you just have the idea?
\n\nMAC: I started my first company when I was 17; built on top of Minecraft, and it was very community-centric, and I didn't really realize at the time. But I got lucky enough to sell that business. And, you know, after looking back at all the hats I've worn running a, you know, a tiny, bootstrapped company, I realized the community management part had been what I enjoyed the most and that the community part had been the kind of competitive advantage of that business. And that sent me down a path of thinking about community and business more intentionally after having kind of stumbled into it as a, I guess, late teenager.
\n\nSo, Commsor started...originally, I knew I wanted to build something in the community space. So, we actually started...it started as a newsletter, actually. It was a substack called Community Chat Weekly, which was just, like, an aggregation newsletter as I was, like, doing research into the more professional community world. And then it became a small Slack community, which then became the community club. And Commsor, as a product, was born out of building a community for community people and just diving headfirst into that world.
\n\nSALLY: So much community, I love it [laughs].
\n\nMAC: Yeah. I try to say, like, a couple of different words, like world or something instead of community.
\n\nSALLY: [laughs]
\n\nMAC: And just, like, we used to joke that we were a community company for community people, by community people, with a community of community people.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nMAC: I was, like, just too much of the same word [laughs].
\n\nSALLY: I love that. So, it's interesting. One of the reasons why I really wanted to get you and Chad together, in particular, is because the whole go-to-network motion that you're so passionate about and that you've built this product around very closely aligns with how Chad has really led and grown thoughtbot over the last 20 years. And I thought it would be so cool to bring those perspectives together.
\n\nAnd one of the things that you mentioned around community was that it gave you a competitive advantage. I'm curious to know, Chad, does that resonate with you? Have you seen that in thoughtbot over the last, you know, couple of decades as you've been doing this?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, definitely. I mean, one of the things that is my sort of go-to talking points, both at conferences and that kind of thing, is that one thing that has been really a big part of thoughtbot's success is being willing to be clear about who we were and what we believe. And when we do that, then the people who want what we have and believe what we believe and are excited by that can find us and, you know, follow us. And, eventually, when they're in a position to need help, we're top of mind.
\n\nAnd this idea, I think, holds back a lot of companies because you think your market is the total addressable market. And the reality is you're never going to work with the total addressable market. So, you're better off finding the people who believe what you believe in your niche and your community. And being that big fish in that small pond has been really beneficial for us.
\n\nSALLY: That's awesome. Yeah, I think it was kind of a culture shock, honestly, coming to thoughtbot because I had been so immersed in sort of the SaaS world and the mass outreach, cold outreach, sort of, I want to say, traditional go-to-market motion that's been used over the last ten years. And I came here, and there were so many things that thoughtbot did or didn't do that I just was honestly kind of shocked, you know, as an example, not using third-party cookies on our website [laughs].
\n\nAnd, Mac, when we were talking, it sounded like you're also doing some of those things that we joked might make a CRO cry [laughs]. So, I was curious to ask what some of those things were and see how that kind of matches up to what thoughtbot is doing in our approach, too. I'd be curious to know.
\n\nMAC: There are so many things. I mean, I get CROs all the time, not, like, yelling at me, but I get the whole like, "Young man, you don't understand how sales works," type comments all the time. I got one recently that was, "Don't talk about sales until you've sold in a recession." It was like, what do you think we've [laughter] been doing the last 18 months? But okay. But yeah, so we don't do cold calls. We don't do cold emails. We don't do any of that traditional stuff that software companies do.
\n\nAnd I guess you all as a, you know, more of a, like, service-based product, as a founder building a software-based product, more than half of the cold outbound I get is, like, developer agencies and stuff like that. It's, like, the classic scourge of outbound in a lot of ways, right? So, there's an element of, like, zigging when everyone else zags. And one of my favorite stats...I can't remember the exact number, so don't fully quote me on it. But --
\n\nCHAD: It's not like we're recording or anything. It's totally fine.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nMAC: Yeah, well, I mean, I think the gist of the message is more important than the exact number. And it was a stat that there's been a 100x increase in prospecting activities over the last decade. So, for every cold email, cold call, in-mail ad impression that you would have seen ten years ago, you now get 100 as a buyer.
\n\nAnd I always say this thing to people; I'm like, it doesn't matter how good your outreach is. You can have the best well-crafted cold email, cold call; your timing can be perfect; everything could be right: relevance, timing, everything. The problem is, increasingly, buyers have been so pissed off at the deluge of shit they've gotten for ten years that it doesn't matter. Like, my phone does not ring if I don't have your number. I am physically uncoldcallable.
\n\nAnd I've talked to a lot of CROs, and they're like, "Well, we'll just, you know, marketing will get your lead some other way. And then they'll pass it over to us, and we'll still get to you." And it's like, okay, like, that doesn't really solve the problem. So, like, there's a lot of these weird things where sales and marketing aren't aligned. They expect each other to solve the problem for each other. They're pure volume-based, and we don't do any of that. And a lot of CROs and a lot of VPs of sales love to point out how wrong we are for that, but it's working so far.
\n\nAnd also, it's so much more enjoyable to build a company that way. Like, our salespeople, our SDRs, and all that stuff, they don't hate their jobs. They're not, like, sticking their face to the grindstone every morning and being like, "Oh yeah, I got to play pump-up music before I go to work. Otherwise, I'm not going to get through the day." It just creates a better work environment. It's better for us. It's better for the buyers. It's better all the way around.
\n\nCHAD: So, for thoughtbot, I know that a lot of this has come naturally for us because, as developers and designers, we've produced a lot of open source that flows from our work that then builds community around it. We write on a blog, which we're very fortunate to have a lot of people read over the years, which fosters reputation for us and community around it. But what does that look like for other companies who maybe aren't, like, an agency like us doing that kind of thing? What are the kinds of things that it looks like?
\n\nMAC: I think you hit the nail on the head earlier when you said it's about, like, showing off who you are and what you believe in and creating space so people can come to you. But in the, you know, the high growth SaaS world, the last ten years, people have not been a fan of waiting for people to come to you. It's, like, grow at all costs, blitzscale, all that sort of mentality.
\n\nFor us, the way it looks is...I guess an example–so, we did this sort of semi-accidental campaign on LinkedIn over the last, I guess, two and a half months with these purple hoodies. And there's a whole backstory. They were an accident, and we were like, "Shit, we have too many hoodies. What do we do with them?" So, we made a thing out of them. And we thought we were going to get 25. We ended up getting 250 [laughter]. It's a whole thing.
\n\nWe just started, like, we sent them to a few folks, and someone posted a photo without us asking being like, "Look at this awesome hoodie Commsor sent me." And their post went, like, insane. Like, by LinkedIn standards, it went insane. It was, like, 100 comments. Like, "How do I get one? Oh my God, I love it. It's so cool. Can I get one?"
\n\nSo, we just started sending them to people, like, no goals, no intention, just brand building, just building connections, building relationships. I personally, from hoodies that I can attribute, have booked over 200 calls about our product with our ICP doing that without trying to. There's almost this element of, like, by not trying to sell, it's become easier to sell. There's, like, an element of like, I'm just sending you a hoodie because I think you're cool, and I want to get to know you.
\n\nAnd it's a fine line because I think a lot of companies try to do that. But you can always tell there's an undertone of, yeah, I'm sending you these cookies because, like, I'm really hoping you get on a sales call with me. But we genuinely were, like, we have too many hoodies. We're just trying to get rid of them. I don't want to pay to store them. Like, please, I'm begging you, please take our hoodie.
\n\nSALLY: [laughs]
\n\nMAC: And then, it just turned into this, like, whole FOMO game. It's like the authenticity was purely there. All in all, we spent about, including shipping, everything, like, $8,000 on hoodies, so not a tiny amount of money but also not huge by marketing budget standards. And I had a conversation with a CMO recently. He was like, "You should have just spent LinkedIn ads. That's such a waste of money. You can't track it. It's not attributable," et cetera. I was like, "We've gotten, I think, close to a million impressions on LinkedIn of people posting our hoodies talking about us. We couldn't have paid for that."
\n\nSo, there's, like, this whole area where it's like, if you actually just go out there and build relationships, build community, get to know people, tell them what you believe in, yeah, people will not agree with you. Like, when I say I think modern go-to-market is broken and the way people sell is broken, I get a lot of sales leaders who are like, "You're an idiot. Like, that's wrong. You objectively don't know what you're doing. You've never been a salesperson by title. Don't spread this shit."
\n\nBut then you get a lot of people who are like, "Yeah, you're right. It's not working. I want to hear what you have to say. I want to talk to you. I want to brainstorm with you." The amount of times that I get DMs from salespeople who are like, "Hey, I totally agree with that post you just wrote, but I can't publicly because my VP of sales is going to read me out if they see me agreeing with you. But like, yeah, this shit doesn't work anymore," like, 10 to 20 times a day, I get messages like that.
\n\nSALLY: And as a consumer of LinkedIn feed, you know, I've been following Mac for a while, but also follow a couple of other folks at Commsor and people who are in their networks. I can 100% validate that the Dino Hoodie is, in fact, now a status symbol on LinkedIn. So [laughs], I thought that was, you know, brilliant. And I'm not going to lie; I had some FOMO, too. I was like, where's my Dino Hoodie? And, in fact, when I talked to Mac, I was like --
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nSALLY: I know that we just met, but can I get one of those? [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: I see now. This was just a ploy to get a hoodie.
\n\nMAC: I've gotten, like, reverse sales now. It's like, you know, you get pitch slapped on LinkedIn, or someone adds you, and right away, they're trying to sell to you. I've gotten that. [laughter] But they're trying to convince me to give them a hoodie. Like, somehow, we've created the reverse thing where, like, salespeople are reaching out to me to reverse pitch–so I can give them something.
\n\nSALLY: That is hilarious. And I promise that was not my intention; was just to get a hoodie from you. But there's so much there that I think would be interesting to unpack. Chad, I'm just kind of curious to know your impression of what Mac has shared around the sort of flak that he's gotten around, you know, what you're doing isn't going to work, or whatever. Have you gotten any of that over the years? Are you surprised to hear that? Just interested to hear your thoughts.
\n\nCHAD: No, I think it happens when you are willing to put yourself out there with an opinion, with a belief. And it's going to resonate with the people that it resonates with. And the flip side of that is there are going to be people who believe that you're wrong. You know, when we were doing very early on with test-driven development, for example, it was not an established industry practice. You could find blog posts from people out there saying. "It's bad. We tried it at my startup and our product failed, and it was too slow. It held us back from being successful."
\n\nBut the people who believe in it...if we were the only company in Boston who was doing it and a company that believes in test-driven development was never going to work with a company that didn't do test-driven development, so we were the one company that they could work with because we believed in the same practices.
\n\nAnd that's the hard thing in that is, usually, if you're on the right track to finding the right niche or to the right belief that's going to really resonate with a group of people, the people that you're turning off is probably going to be a louder, more vocal group. And so, being strong in the face of that is really important.
\n\nAnd I'll also just call out that, like, this is one area where it's easy to say, "Well, this works because you've been successful." There are other founders probably who, like, they have a legitimately bad idea. And they ignore all the sort of haters, and they say, "Oh, those are just the haters." And yet they don't get the success because there wasn't the people out there who actually did believe what they believe or had a need for the product that they were creating, or something like that.
\n\nAnd I think it's important to ignore the noise or to push past the noise, but you do need to let it in a little bit so that you understand whether you're on the right track at all, I've found. What about you, Mac?
\n\nMAC: Yeah, it's a never-ending battle to know what to listen to, and what to ignore, and how to apply it or if to apply it, and things like that. I agree. I think there is an element of, like, it's like, what's that [inaudible 14:47] saying? Like, if no one thinks you're crazy or wrong, you're probably too late as well with your idea, right? Like, if you're like, "Here's my idea," and everyone's like, "That's a great idea," It's been done. You're very late to the party at that point.
\n\nThere's no, like, right or wrong answer because there's always context. You always know your idea and your business, hopefully, better than anybody else does. So, you can't just, like, take other people's advice. I actually went through a whole period (It's like sort of a sidebar.), but where I was, like, impostor syndrome as a, you know, venture-backed CEO. I was like, oh, I got to, like, be the founder and run the company the way other people run companies at this stage. And it, like, objectively, almost killed us as a company.
\n\nI have lived both sides of that extreme of like, being like, "No, I'm not going to listen to anybody's advice," and the negatives and positives of that, and the "I'm just going to follow everyone's advice and do what they say," and the negatives and positives of that. And now somewhere, maybe not quite in the middle, maybe a little bit leaning towards the ignore the advice because I believe in what we're doing.
\n\nCHAD: And you need to actually believe what you're saying. I think this is the wrong tactic to take if you don't actually believe it.
\n\nSALLY: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Because if it's not authentic to you, it's going to be really hard to build an authentic community and message and those kinds of things, yeah.
\n\nMAC: People can tell.
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\n\nSALLY: One of the things that you had mentioned before was sort of the technology that you've built Commsor on. And it was an interesting choice to me because it's not one of the more, you know, flashy or hot, new sort of programming languages that's out there. So, I was just kind of wondering, what is it? And why did you make the decision to build out the actual tool the way that you did?
\n\nMAC: So, I definitely have to, like, put a giant asterisk over everything I'm about to say. I am not a technical founder [laughs]. So, like, anything I say here is just potentially wrong [laughter]. [inaudible 17:20] The decision was made because I had, you know, a great team that we put together and trusted them to make the decision, and that's the decision we've made. So, I mean, the bulk of the app is built on just, like, Ruby and React. It's pretty straightforward.
\n\nWe have had people be like, "Well, you should be using this," you know, whatever "Next.js, plus this, plus this, you know, it's better." But, like, the team we have, they've worked together in the past. So, they actually came into an acquihire. So, we're like, basically, like, you know, they'd worked together for three years in a company. They have systems in place.
\n\nAnd at this stage, it's, like, debating what tool you're going to use when you start, like, just 99.9% of the time does not matter. There's no idea...you don't even know if it's going to work, the product, right? It's, like, and your customers don't care. Your customers don't care. Unless you're building a dev tool and it's, like, hyper-specific, but even then, they probably don't really care that much. So yeah, we have a good team. I trust them to make the decision. And it's what they know and what they're familiar with. So, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, we just went with the thing that would let us get things done the fastest.
\n\nSALLY: Chad, I'm interested to know...the trust factor that you mentioned, Mac, is really key to a lot of thoughtbot's success. I think that one of the things that Chad has done well as he's grown the company is hired great people and then trusted them to get the job done however [laughs] they thought that it might best be done. So, Chad, I'm curious to know: whether you're deciding on a tech stack or how you're going to go to market or anything like that, what has the impact of trust been at thoughtbot as you've grown and scaled the company?
\n\nCHAD: I think trust is one of [laughs]...I think it's very important. It's one of our core values. And, for us, that comes from not just trust being a nice thing to have. It's the one value that I can also point to and say I intentionally created an environment of trust.
\n\nI've been doing freelancing and consulting for a long time, even before thoughtbot. And I knew that at thoughtbot, we were going to continually form and reform teams of people that hadn't necessarily worked together closely before. And that if every time we did that, we were going to have to be building trust with each other, that it would detract from the success of the product that we were trying to create and from the relationship that we were needing to build trust on urgently which was with our new client.
\n\nAnd so I tried really hard to create an environment where when people show up on day one, everyone inherently trusts that they belong there and trusts them. It's not easy, and it's not perfect. But I think we've made a lot of progress on that. And then, when you have that kind of environment, recognizing that it changes the way that you work with each other. And so, when it comes to, like, technology decisions and everything, I mean, that is essentially how we work is understanding that everyone has trust of each other and that when you are put in a position to make a decision, it is your decision to make.
\n\nBut part of making decisions and part of having a trusting environment is communicating with each other. So, even if you're responsible for making the decision, part of your responsibility, then, is for bringing everyone else along with you. And sometimes that means setting up an environment where, okay, the results speak for themselves. But other times, it means educating people about, "Here's what we're going to do, and here's why," even if it is as simple as "This is what we know. We've been doing it for three years, and let's just get right to it."
\n\nI don't know if that directly answers your question. But it's a big part of how we've done things and tried to create the culture that we've created. And I happen to be biased, but Ruby is a great choice.
\n\nSALLY: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: I think it's taken for granted because it has been around for so long. But I talk about strong beliefs. I am up to speed on lots of web development frameworks and the ways that you build applications across a variety of different platforms, and tech stacks, and that kind of thing.
\n\nWe didn't choose Ruby on Rails because we thought it was going to be popular back in 2005. We chose it because it fundamentally was the best way that we could see, out of all the platforms at the time, to build web applications. It allowed us to do things in one line that normally would have, at the time, taken 20. And that allowed us to be faster and work the ways that we wanted to work. And embedded in that culture is things like testing and test-driven development, which we also believe in.
\n\nThe simple fact of the matter is there hasn't been a paradigm shift in web frameworks that is actually fundamentally better in the way that Ruby on Rails was better in the early 2000s. So, you can choose something else, but it's not going to be significantly better than Rails in terms of productivity, in terms of what it can do for your early-stage product.
\n\nIt basically just then comes down to there's choices you can make that will slow you down, definitely, in terms of architecture and everything in other platforms. But yeah, you can't go wrong with Rails, and you can't really go wrong with Ruby. And you can't go wrong with choosing what you know and what you're comfortable with, especially in the early days.
\n\nSALLY: Yeah, I love that. One of the themes that I'm sort of hearing from both of you in how you've approached building tools; building your business is putting users at the center. And, Mac, I know you were saying, you know, I have all these CROs coming at me, right? Like VPs of sales being like, "The way you're approaching things isn't going to work. It's dumb; it's stupid."
\n\nBut then you also have these salespeople DMing you like, "Hey, I agree with you. I just can't say it out loud because I might get in trouble." And, ultimately, that salesperson really is your user, right? Because they're the ones that are building their network, that are leveraging it to then go get the sales for the company.
\n\nSo, I thought it was interesting that sort of that user-centered approach was something that was coming out with both because I know for Ruby, in particular, it's very well-loved by developers that use it. It's, like, a very developer-friendly sort of language. And so, I'm just wondering, you know, how do you, Mac, continue to keep users at the center when you have voices coming at you, when you have [laughs], you know, people telling you you're doing it wrong? What are some things that you do tactically to make sure that you stay aligned?
\n\nMAC: I mean, the simple answer is talk to them all the time. We actually...every single user who gets onboarded to our product right now gets an introduction to me directly. That's part of, like, seeing how the product works as well. But every single user ends up speaking to me. Who knows if that'll scale? But right now, it's like, I have spoken for at least 30 minutes with every single person we've onboarded to our product. We onboard every user by hand right now, which is totally counterintuitive for the price point our product's at.
\n\nBut it's been really helpful to build that relationship, build that trust, get the research and the understanding of what we need to do next really quickly, have tight feedback loops. We have, like, I Dm users all the time. Like, I [inaudible 24:28] I probably have 50 to 60 unique DMs on LinkedIn per day. And someone was telling me like, "That's a waste of time as CEO and founder." I'm like, it's literally the only thing that matters. I'm talking to users, hearing what the market is saying, like, hearing all that live, not hearing it from people.
\n\nWe're also working on, right now, enabling anyone on our team to do an onboarding so that when we do scale, my goal would be that every person on our team, from an engineer to a success person to the CEO, would be onboarding a customer at least once every few weeks just to maintain that closeness and that connectedness. We're also working on things... I'm a huge fan of...do you know Arc browser?
\n\nSALLY: I'm not familiar, no.
\n\nCHAD: I haven't used it, but I am familiar with it, yeah.
\n\nMAC: I'm using it right now.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nMAC: Highly recommend. Not an ad, I promise; just a fan. But they do, like, little things that they do, for example, like, when they would change log, instead of being written or instead of being just a CEO, it'll be like, "Here are the four new things released." And the first thing is, "Oh, here's Mac, the developer who worked on this feature sharing it. And here's, you know, this person who worked on this feature."
\n\nSo, it's like, each individual person becomes the face of the thing they worked on, rather than just like, oh, it's the faceless company, or it's, like, it's always the same, like, spokesperson who's always talking about it. So, enabling it to not just be me who talks to users all the time but the whole company enables the whole company to be more user-centric.
\n\nSALLY: That's so interesting. Again, there's, like, so many parallels between how I've seen thoughtbot approach things and how you're approaching things with Commsor. When you mentioned that your goal is to sort of make it so that several different people are the face, and it's not just like, oh, Commsor is Mac only [laughs], that's something that I think I've seen Chad do throughout the years.
\n\nSo, Chad, do you have any examples of sort of how you've tried to scale the company, putting different faces and putting our experts out there, trying to make it so that thoughtbot is not, like, the Chad show? Because I feel like that's one of the things that, you know, you're great [laughs]. But I think that the fact that we have so many contributors to communities and people speaking at events has been really, you know, just good for business and good for the company. So, what are some ways that you've done that? And what benefits have you seen of doing sort of what Mac is trying to do right now within Commsor?
\n\nCHAD: I don't know that I've been super intentional about this. It just came naturally, as we're all people who would do this, right? Like, you can't stop us from doing it. And so, I mostly just try to create an environment where you're not stopping people from doing things that they would normally want to do anyway. And to then recognize when, you know, someone else goes and creates open source, or a blog post, or speaks at a conference, or whatever. That comes back to benefit us through the reputation that it builds and the community that it builds.
\n\nAnd I think a lot of organizations and teams and everything do a really good job of getting in people's way from doing things [laughs] that they would want to do. And so, that's really all I've tried to do is not get in people's way.
\n\nMAC: I've spoken to a lot of people who are, like, under the impression that their company owns their LinkedIn account, which I always think is super interesting, or companies who, like, go out of their way to be like, "No, you can't speak about, I don't know, that you like barbecuing," or, like, well, you can't, like, be a person. You have to, like, you are just a representative of the company. And it's so stupid.
\n\nIt's, like, 90% of the growth we have is either word of mouth or people referencing that they've, like, built a relation or a connection with someone on our team, not just me, but, like, Ben or Katrine on our team, like, people like them. And then they want to learn about Commsor because they get to know them.
\n\nAnd I think there's this old model where, like, if you just draw, like, circles, right? Like, here's the company, and here's people. It used to be here's the company, and then all the people are inside of it. But more and more, like, the way we're trying to build it is, like, you have, like, the people are a ring around the bubble that is the company. It's like, the people actually are the kind of that first interface, which is always what it is anyways, whether companies act that way or not.
\n\nAt the end of the day, people are the interface. But so many companies try to control that and, like, you know, put everyone through this, like, brand voice funnel that just...it just doesn't work. Yeah.
\n\nSALLY: Yeah. Well, and it's ironic because I've heard so many sales leaders harping on people buy from people. People buy from people. And then they don't allow their salespeople to actually go be a human being and a person in any sort of a public [laughs] forum like LinkedIn. I've had that same conversation with so many sales folks that I've worked with, you know, over the years, especially the last few years, where like, oh, I feel like I could really put some great stuff out on LinkedIn, build some relationships, but I just I feel sort of stifled from doing that for fear of reprimand, or losing my job, or whatever it is.
\n\nSo, I definitely appreciate that, at thoughtbot, I don't feel that. I have felt that in the past in some roles, but I don't feel that here. And I'm just so grateful that I feel empowered to go share my thought leadership and things like that on LinkedIn. And it's interesting because that has yielded opportunities that I wasn't even looking for. So, yeah, I'm curious, Chad, if you've also seen things that we weren't necessarily looking for happening that way.
\n\nCHAD: I do. As you were talking, though, I was just thinking, this is harder than it was before. Like, you may be excited to talk on LinkedIn [laughs], but I would say the number of people at thoughtbot who are actually excited to do authentic stuff on social media these days is way, way down. And it's been trending down for years, and it's particularly bad these last couple. And, you know, we have the kind of culture where we don't force people to do it.
\n\nIs that something that you've seen, Mac? It's, like, individuals' sort of engagement, willingness? I think a lot of social media is just a mess right now, that kind of thing. And how is that affecting what you see in your strategy?
\n\nMAC: Yeah, I don't think...it doesn't have to necessarily be social media, like, once again, the browser company example of, like, the update videos including people in it, right? It's like it's...there's ways that the company can intentionally elevate their people first, rather than being like, "Oh, yeah, here's social media, like, have fun. Go build a brand. Please do free marketing for us." Because that's kind of, like, what you're subtly hoping happens if one of your team members builds an audience on Twitter or LinkedIn. You're like, cool, we'll get, like, the splashover effect.
\n\nI would say, right now, about 25% of our team is doing it really well without us prompting. Like, they just want to do it, and they're leaning into it and enjoying it. 25% want to do it but maybe aren't sure how or where. And we've actually, like, built systems internally to help, like, build, like, you know, give them the space to do it and whatnot. And then, half are just like, yeah, I'm not doing that. I don't have any interest at all.
\n\nCHAD: For me, it's more that you don't need to do that just because someone else is doing it. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to find the thing that you're passionate about and the way that you can find your voice or a thing to contribute to, even if it's an external sort of open-source project or something like that.
\n\nMAC: Yeah, I mean, we have things like it doesn't have to be tied to the company. Like, a great example...so, Katrine, who's our head of sales, and my sister [laughter]...I guess I should --
\n\nCHAD: Full disclosure.
\n\nMAC: Like, put a little asterisk, you know, on there as well, yeah. Not why she has the job, but just happens to be that way. So, she actually started running this, like, Women in Revenue meetup with Gong, another company, with this other woman Ashley, like, almost two years ago, like, after she started Commsor. It wasn't tied to Commsor or, like, it wasn't tied to our business or anything like that. And then she came to me, like, a year ago and was like, "Oh, me and Ashley want to start our own podcast. What do you think?"
\n\nAnd we ended up actually, like, funding the podcast. Like, we pay for the editing, the hosting, like, all of a sudden, they need to, like, do it. And yeah, so we get to [inaudible 32:30], like, yeah, this podcast is, like, presented by Commsor, even though it's like Katrine and Ashley's podcast. We're, like, the permanent sponsor of it, basically. But it's been interesting.
\n\nAnd now it's like, and now she's involved in this group called Wednesday Women where it's like, she wants to elevate other women in revenue roles. That's not what Commsor's mission is. I'm not saying we don't believe in it but, like, that's not the reason Commsor exists, right? But we were like, yeah, we gave her the space to do it. There has been so much good that has come to Commsor from that, from her running her own meetups, hosting her podcast, building a brand around that, elevating other women.
\n\nLike, the amount of people who come to us and want to learn more about Commsor or [inaudible 33:05] want to work with us, whatever, because of the stuff she has done on a thing she cares about outside of work, I mean, it's obviously very tied to her work still, but it's not. It's not Commsor marketing. It's not for Commsor. It's not backed by Commsor, like, in an official capacity.
\n\nSo, there are ways that, like, if people have those passions, like you said, it'll bring people who are like-minded, who will get to know them, who then inherently want to be like, "Oh, well, I love what Katrine is doing. What does Katrine do at Commsor? Oh, cool. What does Commsor do?" Like, you know, it's like, there's a funnel. Like, not everybody will follow that path. But a not insignificant portion of the people that are aware of our brand have come in through that path.
\n\nCHAD: And this is a good example of something that I talk a lot about is, is that the most effective thing that could probably happen? Probably not. But I would rather someone do the thing that is 60% effective and 100% fulfilling to them than doing something that is soul draining that they don't want to do that's 99%.
\n\nMAC: Well, I'll also counter that they will show up and be a better employee and team member because they're...it's like, so even if they're, like, doing less by the numbers, long term, they'll do more, like, especially in sales, right? Like, SDR culture has been this, like, you basically grind it out for 12 months, maybe 18 months as an SDR, and you hope that you make it to the AE role, and if you don't, not very many people...you don't become an SDR for ten years. It is not a career. It is a stepping stone of, like, I'm going to stick my face in the boiling water. I'm going to deal with it. I'm going to suck it up, and hopefully it pays off in the long term.
\n\nAnd, like, a huge percent of those folks end up churning out into customer success roles or completely different industries or whatever because it's, like, no one wants to keep their face on the grindstone for that long. But by, like, building a sales and a marketing system that's actually enjoyable for the people that are doing it, one, they bring their authentic selves to work, which means they're more likely to do it. They're more likely to stick around. They're more likely to have fun with it. And when they're having more fun with it, that also reflects on the people in the market because people can tell. People can tell that Commsor is having fun.
\n\nLike, it sounds kind of dumb, but I think especially in B2B, like, having fun is actually kind of a competitive advantage. And I don't mean fun in the sense of, like, oh, we post memes on our LinkedIn account. Like, that's not, like, corporate fun, but, like, actually, like, real people personalities showing through the work fun, like the dinosaur thing, right?
\n\nLike, I think my entire LinkedIn personality now is, like, anti-bad sales tactics, and dinosaurs are cool, which is also sad and kind of counterintuitive because, like, bad sales tactics are also things that dinosaurs [inaudible 35:40] [laughter], sort of a, like, sort of a funny play on things. But, like, I think my LinkedIn bio is: DM me for a fun fact about dinosaurs. It's not what we do at Commsor. It's not trying to pitch you on anything.
\n\nAnd I have had so many conversations where someone's just like, "I want a fun fact about dinosaurs." I'm like, "Sure. All right, cool. Like, here you go." And sometimes, it ends up going further. And, you know, maybe Commsor comes up naturally. Other times, they're like, "Cool. That's an awesome fact that made my day, thanks," and then that's it. That's the end of it. But when you can enable those personalities, and that authenticity, and that fun to show through the work, both sides benefit.
\n\nAnd when you're talking about things that don't scale, whatever, that's one of the classic pushbacks I get. - It's like, "Well, how does this, like, go-to-network relationship selling, how does it scale?" They're like, "I need to close 100 deals this year. I got to scale." It's like, I did a graphic...I can't remember the exact numbers, but looked at, like, you know, the stats on cold calling, for example. And it was like, to get one deal, you need five meetings because, on average, industry-wide in SaaS, 20% of those meetings become deals.
\n\nTo get five meetings, you have to cold call 250 or more individual accounts because that's how many, on average, it takes with cold call rates. But on average, it takes seven to eight cold calls to actually get someone to answer. So, I have to call Sally eight times to get an answer. So, I have to make over 2,000 cold calls to end up with one meeting. It's just insane. Whereas if you look at like relationship selling, warm intros, and warm paths like that, they close at a 78% rate across the board.
\n\nSo, it's actually like, okay, I can go out and get a pool of 250, 500, 1,000 contacts and try to get four leads, or I can go build relationships with ten people and get four deals that way. It's like, you don't need it to scale in the same way if you're building with that. The problem is that sales and marketing over the last decade have been built on the predictable revenue model. If I make X cold calls, I'll get X meetings, and I'll book Y deals. So, everyone is like, okay, it's scalable. If I want to close twice as much revenue, I need twice as many SDRs making twice as many cold calls to close twice as much. That just doesn't work anymore.
\n\nThe whole model that startup growth has been built on for ten years it doesn't work. I mean, even if you look at, like, the IPOs of tech companies over the last decade, it's like less than 5% of them have been consistently profitable for the last three years. So, if we're all trying to build our companies and everyone's like, ooh, look at the way that XYZ, Uber, or WeWork, whatever, did over the last ten years, they actually haven't worked.
\n\nWe've been trained and tricked on this system for 10, 15 years of, like, growth is everything. But, like, I don't know, just look at WeWork over the last month, right? Like, that's the shining star of, like, does it matter? Like, you can grow to a billion dollars in revenue. But if you're losing a billion to make a billion, the company making 20 million and spending 5 million to make that is actually a better company.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. It's totally...some people that is what they want. But it does change your motivation when what you're trying to do is create a company that you enjoy working at that maybe isn't taking over the world but making a positive contribution to it. That changes your approach.
\n\nMAC: Yeah, you're not trying to consume everything in sight. There's a lot of different ways to do it. And yeah, I think the last ten years, especially in startup and SaaS land, have tricked a lot of people into thinking there's only one way to do things, and it's throw money in a grinder and hope to God that you get more money at the bottom of it than you put in the top of it, even though 99% of the time that's never the case.
\n\nCHAD: Well, Mac, thank you so much for joining and sharing with us. If folks want to find out more about Commsor or get in touch with you, what are all the different ways that they can do that?
\n\nMAC: Well, they can DM me on LinkedIn for a fun fact about dinosaurs before they ask what their real question is. It's just Mac Reddin. I think I'm the only one on LinkedIn with that name, so it shouldn't be too hard to find me. I'm the guy with the dinosaur emoji next to my name, just to really lean into it.
\n\nYeah, and then Commsor, it's commsor.com. We're, like, just now starting to reveal what we've been building over the last six or nine months with our pivot into this go-to-network world. So, we're early on that front. But you can keep your eyes peeled, and there'll be more to see over the next few months.
\n\nCHAD: And Sally, thanks so much for joining today and help facilitating the conversation. I really appreciate it.
\n\nSALLY: Absolutely. It's been really fun.
\n\nCHAD: If folks want to get in touch with you or follow along, where are the places they can do that?
\n\nSALLY: I am all up in LinkedIn, so feel free to hit me up there. That's probably the best place. Also, if anybody out there ends up using Commsor, you can also find me in the Herd, which is the community that Mac has built, so feel free to find me there as well.
\n\nCHAD: And you, listener, can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Mastodon at cpytel@thoughtbot.social.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks so much for listening, and see you next time.
Special Guest: Mac Reddin.
Sponsored By:
D'ontra Hughes is the Founder and CEO of Spare, which uses tech to solve cash management problems for unbanked small businesses and enterprises. D'ontra shares his entrepreneurship journey, driven by realizing the financial industry's impact on less privileged individuals.
\n\nD'ontra highlights a significant issue in the banking sector where the poorest people are often charged the most in fees, perpetuating poverty. Spare addresses the high fees unbanked individuals face when accessing their money. D'ontra's entrepreneurial journey involved various challenges, including learning from customer feedback, understanding the importance of data-driven decisions, and navigating the competitive startup environment.
\n\nThe conversation also covers the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on Spare, leading to a strategic shift and a focus on regions with high cash circulation. D'ontra emphasizes the importance of strategic planning, data analysis, and a systematic approach to business growth. He also discusses the personal aspects of being a CEO, stressing the importance of maintaining personal relationships and self-care.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is D'ontra Hughes, Founder and CEO of Spare, which uses tech to solve cash management problems for the unbanked small businesses and enterprise. D'ontra, thank you for joining us.
\n\nD'ONTRA: Well, thank you for having me.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, wonderful. So, we met at San Diego Startup Week a few weeks ago. So, I'm excited to have you on the podcast today. Why don't you tell me what was your experience of San Diego Startup Week? And how did you come to be one of the speakers on a panel there?
\n\nD'ONTRA: Yeah, well, it's always a really nice thing to take part in, you know, kind of those innovative startup week events because you get to see a lot of what people are working on or what they're doing. So, we've been working very closely with the County of San Diego, especially with the city of Oceanside with our latest technology.
\n\nAnd, you know, there came this opportunity where I could get on the stage and kind of tell people about our journey a little bit, I think because we're becoming a little bit more successful or something [laughs]; I don't know what to say. We're getting better at what we're doing, apparently, and so folks wanted to hear what I had to say.
\n\nVICTORIA: I was able to catch your talk, and I thought what was really inspiring about it was that you came from the background of working in the financial industry and saw an opportunity to solve a problem that was common for other people and to be more fulfilled by the work you were doing. So, can you share a little bit about that?
\n\nD'ONTRA: I came out of a background in finance, as you said. I used to work for JPMorgan. It feels like a long, long time ago. And that was my last corporate job until I became an entrepreneur. You know, one of the things that I learned at that time...and not that the bank was doing anything wrong, but in the nature of finance, it's a business, right? It's got customers. It's got clients. It's got shareholders. And the most important thing is it's designed to make money.
\n\nThere's always someone that loses, right? And sometimes you could say that that's the nature of business. But in this regard, it was a lot of people who lost that couldn't recover or wouldn't be able to recover from the financial waste that was left.
\n\nYou know, I went on my entrepreneurial journey wanting to learn how to build a business and, you know, try to solve problems for myself or for other people. And specifically for this endeavor with Spare, which we launched back in 2015, we looked at the subset of the population, roughly about 25% of the U.S. population, 90-something million households of folks that were basically spending about 7% of their own income every year just accessing their own money. And, like, that's wild, right? Because if I came to you and I said, "Hey, if you got 100 bucks in your pocket, in order to pull that money out of your pocket, you got to give me $7," you'd be furious.
\n\nAnd so, the unfortunate thing is that this kind of tax on the poor was being facilitated by the ATM industry. At the time when we began the company, you had consumers out there going to an ATM roughly about seven times per month, withdrawing roughly about $60 per transaction. And the average fee at that time was $4.09. And today, the average fee is just about $4.80, something cents, depending on where you're at in the country.
\n\nAnd so, it's unfortunate the difference in these fees for these folks. It might sound absurd to say this, but it makes a difference between eating and not eating for some of these folks. And anyone who's a struggling college student or lives on the low end of the economic spectrum they understand what I mean by that, where the extra $30 or $40 in their pocket per month actually matters. It's an extra tank of gas or two tanks of gas, depending on what kind of car you're driving. And so, it matters.
\n\nWe wanted to really take a really clean look, an assertive look at the relationship that, not just the ATM, but just cash management services or cash management on a local level the impact that it actually has.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And to kind of play that back a little bit, let's say you have a bank or you're not able even to get an account in a traditional bank. Maybe your bank doesn't have an ATM in your neighborhood, and you need to always go to a different ATM to get money out of your bank. And you're just constantly paying those fees. You're more likely taking out smaller sums of money, and then you have to do that over and over again. And it becomes a really high percentage of your income that goes just towards getting money out of the ATM.
\n\nD'ONTRA: Yeah, absolutely. So, when you consider even during the pandemic, right? Everyone's at home, but businesses were trying to figure out how to cut costs. And banks, just like any other business, when they have a retail bank branch that's in a neighborhood that's perhaps low income, they may not keep that bank branch around. And that's unfortunate because it creates an additional hurdle for folks to be able to become banked.
\n\nYou may hear this term of banking deserts, and that's partially because folks have to travel too far, which is an external cost of time, and money, and resources, just to be able to put their money inside of a bank. Now, the additional cost for this particular demographic is that fees tend to add up. And we all know that the bank says, "Hey, as long as you keep $1,200 in your bank account, we're not going to charge you any fees." Well, that's really great, except for the person who is living paycheck to paycheck, right?
\n\nAnd so, this fee tax that's placed on them simply because they don't have enough money when you look at it, it's actually pretty rough [laughs]. I look at it, and sometimes I kind of laugh because it's absolutely absurd when you actually look at it on its face where the poorest people you're generating the most profits from. And unfortunately, those fees keep them in the cycle of being poor.
\n\nAnd so, it's been really great. Over the past few years, you've seen really great applications or neobanks come up that have acted as, you know, somewhat shields against all of these arbitrary fees, like, hey, no overdraft fees, and no account fees, ever, no monthly fees, and things of that nature, right? But they still aren't solving the other issues, some of the major issues.
\n\nSo, it's really great that I have your debit card. But if you're a neobank, that means I either have to use your co-op ATM network, which is only going to allow me to withdraw cash so many times per month for free, or I have to use some other third-party ATM network. The unfortunate thing about that is they're still paying that fee [laughs]. At some point, they're still going to pay that fee, and when that money is better in their pockets, it's just a little rough. It's a little hard to digest. And so, we wanted to make sure we were doing something about it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. It reminds me of a phrase I come back to sometimes is that being poor is actually very expensive [laughs].
\n\nD'ONTRA: It is.
\n\nVICTORIA: There's a lot of fees, a lot of extra stuff you have to pay for that other people don't. I'm curious: how did you narrow in on this problem? Was it through doing some market research? Was it a personal experience that led you to wanting to work for these types of users?
\n\nD'ONTRA: Even though JPMorgan was my last, like, corporate job, I went out into the world to be an entrepreneur. Being an entrepreneur is expensive because you got to figure out how to pay bills. And so, one of the side gigs I had is I worked for a hotel in Santa Monica by the name of the Fairmont, and I was managing valet. For anyone who's been to the Fairmont in Santa Monica, it's not for the cheap folks, right?
\n\nBut what would happen is, you know, patrons would show up, and they'd say, "Hey, I'm going to valet my car. I'm going to come back and pick it up." I'm going to go ahead and settle this up. But, you know, where's the nearest ATM so I can give the valet person cash?" And the most often answer was, "Well, there's one inside the lobby of the hotel, and then there's one across this very busy street." Both of these ATMs had a fee of...the one across the street was about $3.75 if you weren't a bank customer, and, of course, it wasn't a national bank. And then the one in the lobby was about $4.75, I think is what the fee was.
\n\nAnd so, here's the person who doesn't really carry cash that often being told that they have to pay a premium just to help this person out. And you could almost guess what the most likely outcome was is, unfortunately, that valet person just didn't get tipped. But the thing is, is there was actually a third source of cash, and it was actually in the valet's pocket or at the valet stand. So, there was money there in closer proximity. There just wasn't a mechanism of extracting it.
\n\nAnd so, our first look was, well, hey, can we monetize a transaction between, say, the valet stand and this consumer where, basically, the valet stand is selling these folks their cash for much cheaper than the ATM? So, it's going to save everyone time, energy, money, and it ensures that the valet folks get cash in their pocket. I can remember when we initially launched this; I thought it was such a brilliant idea. We created an app in which we would populate a map with all the people around you that had cash on them. So, when you say it out loud, --
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs] Yeah. I could see how that might be problematic.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nD'ONTRA: So, we're super stoked. We're, like, "Hey, we got this app, and it's really great. And, you know, look at all the people here that have money on them." So, we go to submit this thing to the App Store, and the legal team's like, "Absolutely not [laughs]." So, we spent about six months working back and forth with their legal team to come up with a model.
\n\nAnd it's somewhat similar to what you see today, where we're sending consumers to regular brick-and-mortar businesses that have spare cash on hand. That's it. Nothing glamorous about that. But the mechanism and the usefulness does some real overall good, not just for the consumers but for the businesses and for the local economy.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. So, I was going to ask you, like, what surprised you in the early phases: the discovery process? It sounds like you had at least [laughs] at least one big strategic turn. But I'm curious if there was anything else that came up in your early-stage journey where you realized you had to make a pivot and change up what you were doing based on the feedback you got from users.
\n\nD'ONTRA: I'd love to be able to tell the story that we got it all right the first time around, but we didn't. I think we almost hit the checklist of things that you should not do. So, like [laughs], one example is you actually really truly shouldn't listen to your customer to some degree, right? So, you have the vision for this thing, but every customer has their idea of how your app should be better or something you should add.
\n\nAnd we went through phases where we were adding features then that people just weren't using. You know, it might have worked for, you know, 10% of the user base, but we had spent two or three weeks with the dev team putting in this new feature. And it was somewhat of a departure from the core. It's adjacent, and so we could justify it. So, we did it, but we shouldn't have. So [laughs], then we had to, like, backtrack on that. We had lots of these moments.
\n\nBut I would say one of the most defining moments, and it was actually one of the first ones that came, was this moment in which one of early entrepreneurs' fear is that someone is going to steal your idea. So, we try to, you know, wrap folks up in NDAs, and secrecy, and things of that nature. You know, if you have a really solid idea, like, we all know that it has major potential to change your life.
\n\nAnd so, I can remember, you know, we went out, and we pitched this business to a venture capital company. It was very early on. That was my first lesson: people don't steal things that are worthless. And the second being that just because they steal, it doesn't mean they can build it. I can remember, you know, it took us six and a half months to get Spare in the App Store the first time around.
\n\nAnd during that time, we had met with this venture capital company looking for investors, angel investors. And it happened to be that this company gave us an offer to buy the company, and we said "No." But then were like, "Hey, why don't you come in and consult us, and let's see if we can work together to do a deal?" And me being super naive at that time, went in, and I said, "Hey, yeah. Like, this is how we would change the app, and this is what we would do."
\n\nAnd after two or three hours chatting with them, I had designed my competitor. And I didn't know that until a week later where they made their announcement, and, you know, I had Google Alerts on. And so, this app comes out and, you know, they're posting to see what people think about it. And they had gotten their app in the App Store, same business model, mind you. And I was just blown away [laughs]. Like, I think, at that time, I think I lost all composure. I was, like, sick to my stomach. I was furious.
\n\nWhen you asked about, like, the major pivot, it would have been in, like, my mindset because I went in thinking that we have this really great idea and how could anyone want to take something from an entrepreneur because starting is tough enough, especially the people that fund this stuff, right? And [laughs] I learned that, no, opportunities are opportunities, and people take them when they can.
\n\nAnd the bigger you become or depending on where your industry is, people are just looking for a shot. They're looking for an opportunity. No one really cares whether or not they're copying someone else's tech, right? If you were destined to do it, you would do it, and you would do it well, and you'd be one of the top ones to do it, right?
\n\nThat was a major change in how I saw this journey, which allowed me to kind of reframe what we were doing and how I was approaching the market, how we collected data, how we dealt with our consumers, and how we ran our business in general. And then, we had to go in and pivot back to the conversation around the customer. So, we go back, and we're going back to build this thing. And so, at that time, I'm feeling, okay, I have to, like, do any and everything I can once we're in the App Store to get users and retain them.
\n\nAnd that's when I learned the lesson of, like, don't listen to all of your users. Like, know what your thing is, and do that thing really, really well. And try not to build features that aren't central to your core because, honestly, that can just get you in a lot of trouble. And you can waste a lot of time for no reason.
\n\nBut I think the most important thing out of that is listen to the data, the information, and what I mean by that is where people go on a webpage, or where they go in your app, where they spend the most time. Listen to those things, and pay attention to the data, and somewhat become obsessed about utilizing the data to make your decisions. I think that'll save everyone a bit of heartache and, you know, pain as they go down that journey.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I really love that. There's a couple of, like, interesting points. I feel like when you said it can be daunting, like, oh, there's a million apps in there that already do this or, like, somebody else has already started this. Like, sometimes that means, well, it's a good idea because clearly somebody was willing to try and put it together, and they found a market. But you can always do it better, and you can always have a unique angle and try if you think there's a strong enough idea.
\n\nAnd I'm curious to, like, get more into, like, the data question and understand what do you use to understand how people are behaving in your app? And kind of metrics you look at to see how you're tracking and whether those are, like, key success measures or other ways that you think about that data.
\n\nD'ONTRA: For our application, you know, our KPIs were pretty simple very early on. It was like, do we have, like, the keywords that people respond to to find the application? And is it cash? Is cash the keyword? Is ATM the keyword? How do people find us, ultimately, at the end of the day? Because if you can solve that, solving what keywords are most attractive to your company, then what you're going to be able to do is organic traffic is going to be a lot easier to come by.
\n\nSo, you don't have to spend a whole lot of money trying to get advertisements. There's going to be natural search traffic that drive people toward your platform. In addition to that, it was really paying attention to where the customer complaints were coming from because that told us a lot about the application. Even still, today, we have one very consistent customer complaint that, like, the unfortunate thing is, like, it's really difficult for us to solve this thing because it's actually more in the hands of the business than it is us.
\n\nAnd that major customer complaint is when I went into this active location, the person at the cash register didn't necessarily know what I was talking about, and there's a myriad of different reasons for that. But the primary one is that these locations typically have high turnover for the person that's working at the counter. And so Spare has to be an integral part of their onboarding this person so that when someone walks off the street, they can get the service that they need.
\n\nTo some degree, listening or paying attention to the feedback that you're getting about the effectiveness of the service or being able to deliver the technology is actually a very useful data point. In addition to that, looking at where your app is available in cross-section with where the people are that are going to use your app. And this is one of the lessons, I think, we learned the hard way, where, you know, we came out the gate and said, "Hey, anybody and everybody can use this app. It doesn't matter if you're in New York, if you're in Texas, Midwest. It doesn't make a difference, right? Any and everyone can use it."
\n\nAnd the unfortunate thing is, when you do that, like, you're going to new users, which is really fun. It starts off that way. So, you go out, and you get merchants and things of that nature. And the mentality that we used was, well, we'll build it. The users will come, and the users will tell us where the businesses are or where we need to place businesses. So, we had a new person or a group of individuals show up in downtown Los Angeles. It was like, okay, cool, there's a concentration of people in Downtown LA. Let's go make sure we put businesses there. Well, that's faulty thinking in and of itself.
\n\nEven though you're getting the data points and the useful bits of data, you're actually doing it in pretty much, like, the wrong order [laughs]. We didn't really realize that, and Spare was my first tech company. And so, you know, when you think about things like that, like, you think, oh, users, they're important. But how you get them, and how you service them, and when you service them must be a strategic plan. You have to have that process thought out so that the user audience follows your plan, not you responding to them or following their informal plan.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that makes sense. And I love that, you know, focusing on the users and really focusing, like, on all of their unique needs like location [laughs] and other things like that. And I talk about that, you know, in my role as managing director at thoughtbot, I work on our DevOps and platform engineering team. I often talk about it in terms of, you know, very early in the process; you know enough about your user to tell you a lot about what their needs are going to be like on the infrastructure side, like their regional location, the sensitivity of the data, you know, that can tell you a lot about what you need to build [laughs].
\n\nSo, I'm curious, you know, you're working on a financial app here. Have you also had to consider that from a regional perspective and from an infrastructure perspective how that affects your users?
\n\nD'ONTRA: Going into COVID and how we got there, was that we thought we were actually doing really well, right? So, we officially launched our platform to the marketplace in Q4 of 2018. And we did well for the initial launch without any marketing. And then a year later, we had done 3x the volume and had a strategic partner in place that would have grown our network by 30 times by the end of the next year, you know, we were moving.
\n\nAnd then COVID came along, right? In which, you know, huge event that no one planned for. It kind of put the company on halt while businesses were shut down, and we lost about 98% of our network at that time. So, we had to go back to the drawing board and kind of, like, figure out, well, one, if this company is really truly something that we know that there's a thing, we're going to continue to build it, but let's do it better this time around, like, what did we miss the first time?
\n\nAnd the first place that we went when we were trying to make this decision is we went to look up, like, cash effectively, like cash in circulation. And to our surprise, actually, there was more cash put into [laughs] circulation during COVID than there was at any other time in the past, like, decade, and so that was shocking. And so, we said, okay, cool. We know that cash is in circulation, perfect. Where is cash in circulation? And in addition to that, where should we start with the base of our technology? And how do we want to reconfigure this? And to be honest, we need help.
\n\nSo, you know, we applied to Techstars, and we were super fortunate that we got into the Techstars Anywhere program. I think it was a lifesaver and a reboot for us and the company primarily because, you know, during the pandemic, we had lost, you know, over 70% of the folks that worked for the company at that time. So, going through that program helped us rethink a lot about strategy infrastructurel...how exactly we need to rebuild and reconfigure the company for success this next time around.
\n\nI think very early on, you know, we were just trying to do the business. We were just doing it rather than actually strategically building it. You know, that's the major difference between where we were versus where we are now is that everything that we do now is more methodical. When we look at, okay, where do we build merchant networks? Well, we're building them in a very strategic location. That particular location has this value to not only us as a company, the merchants in that area, but also the user base.
\n\nWhen we were able to take this more strategic position around, you know, how exactly we're building this business, we were actually able to see much larger opportunities that have always been there, but we just didn't see them. And so [laughs], I'm super grateful for, like, us kind of doing that recalibration because we were able to build a business that is ten times bigger than we initially thought that we were building.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's super interesting. So, yeah, like, pre-COVID, you're like, we'll get users, and then we'll figure out where to build. And then you had to, like, go through this full recalibration and focus on strategic regions, and that really opened up more opportunities and more growth than you had expected.
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\n\nVICTORIA: What does success look like for you six months from now or five years from now?
\n\nD'ONTRA: So, six months from now. We're hitting this hot streak with new clients and things of that nature. And we're going out, and we're pitching contracts that are bigger than I ever thought we would be able to pitch, honestly. And sometimes when I see the zeros on the proposals that we're sending out, there's part [laughs] of me that's like, oh, they're never going to say yes to this thing, but, one, they are, which is still shocking, even though we've gotten a few of these in.
\n\nAnd six months from now, I just want us to be doing it right. I know that sounds so arbitrary, and it sounds, like, so whimsical. But there are so many things that we're adjusting to in the marketplace and with our tech. Some of this is kind of new frontier for us. But what I would like to have happen is for the results in the next six months to indicate that we're doing it the right way and meaning that we have clients sticking around, we're still getting contracts signed, the network is growing, consumers are actually getting their needs met by our technology, and the company is growing at a rapid pace. That's what I'd like to see.
\n\nAnd granted, you know, we've, in the past, you know, few weeks here, we've doubled the size of the team, which is something that feels really great. But I want us to not lose sight of making sure that the team itself always has a common goal in mind, even as we're growing. And whether that's six months from now, 2, 5, 10 years from now, I want that to kind of be the core of the expectations of what I want this company to be able to do and to deliver.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's exactly the right attitude to have [laughs], right? It's like I want it to work. I want us [laughs] to, yeah, be successful. I think it all makes sense. You know, it's easy to come on a podcast, like, you know, you're eight years into the startup now, and you're starting to see some success. And it's like, here's how I did it. Everything sounds great. So, I'm glad you've also shared some mistakes or some things that you maybe would have reconsidered or done [laughs] differently before.
\n\nI'm curious: if you could travel back in time to when you first started, what advice would you give yourself, now that you've had this experience, to set your mind right from the very beginning?
\n\nD'ONTRA: Oh God, there's so much. There's so [laughs] much. One of the major things that I would do differently is I would read more. And what I mean by that is there are lots of lots of people that have been here in this position and done that thing already. I think in the past year, I would say probably one of the most influential books that I've read is Zero to IPO by Frederic Kerrest. And I happened to listen to it in Audible.
\n\nBut when you talk about, like, just things being pivotal, or like [laughs], going, "Oh, that makes sense," yeah, you get that because being an entrepreneur isn't new. And there are folks that have already kind of cracked the code in some regards. So, if you don't have the existing network around you already, go get the materials. Go read the books or listen to the audios of people who have been there, done that. It's going to save you so much time. So, that would be the number one thing that I would change is I would really truly read more and ingest other people's experiences more, and reach out and get mentors and advisors as you're going down this journey.
\n\nThe second thing that I would do is–it's important to move fast when you're building a company. It's important to respond to the market and all that stuff. That's all super important. That's how you live or die, right? You treat it like there's a fire behind you, and you have to lead it. You have this really hot thing. You've got to be in front of it always, or you'll lose it. And sometimes what we miss is we miss the opportunity to do it faster or better by just slowing down just a little bit. And what I mean by that is, like, I mentioned earlier about looking at the data and things of that nature.
\n\nThere may be things in the data that are making suggestions that you should go a different direction. But because of how you've built this thing, you and your co-founders, and how you guys have built these things in your head, that piece of data may not seem like it's very relevant. Sometimes, it's good to take a breath and take an assessment of where you're at.
\n\nSo, when you're with your team, whether you're setting this up monthly, quarterly, whatever it is, make sure that you're taking some time to make sure that you guys are aligned around where your company is, the industry is, and the signs that you're getting inside the space that you're operating in. It's going to save you a lot of time.
\n\nAnd I think the last thing that is probably the most important is for those out there who are listening to this that are CEOs, one of my board members/life mentors/ CEO mentors, a friend, and almost like a father figure to me at this point, one of the things that he said to me and that I've never gotten out of my mind is that the CEO position is the loneliest position inside of an organization. And the reason why is even though you may start a business with your friends or people who aren't your friends, whatever it might be, whatever those relationships might be, those folks will never quite understand what it's like to sit in your seat because everything must end with you. It has to.
\n\nEvery successful organization is going to rise or fall by the person that sits at the top. And because that burden is so heavy, oftentimes, we don't want to go and talk to people when things are going bad. We don't want to admit when, like, hey [laughs], this thing that we've sunk all these resources into isn't really working. And just the sheer pressure of being that person sucks sometimes.
\n\nWith that being said, take care of yourself and your key relationships. And I'm not talking about key as in, like, strategic. I'm talking about the people that love you. Make sure even though you're going down this journey, you're making time for your friends, your family, your significant others, your kids, whatever it might be. Because business stuff aside, and we're all chasing the–Man, this is going to be really successful one day, and I'll be able to change everyone's life. Sure, we're all chasing that.
\n\nBut there is a now moment. There is a person right now that might want your love or your attention, and do not rob them of that. Make sure that you're still making time for those things that are important. Because you could very easily start building a business and five years later, look up and go, oh, this thing didn't work. And then turn around, and there's a wasteland of relationships that you just didn't pay attention to. That's not worth it. So, make sure that you're not only showing, you know, the folks that support you some love but show yourself love by still nurturing those relationships.
\n\nVICTORIA: That reminds me I heard something about like, your rest ethic should be as good as your work ethic. And your rest ethic includes that time that you spend with family, or whether it's your religion, or your hobbies, or anything like that that makes you feel whole and like yourself, which I know can be a difficult thing to do when you're balancing starting a new business and thinking about the growth and the future all the time. So, I really appreciate that.
\n\nYou know, you mentioned mentorship and these networking and relationships. Bringing it all the way back to Start Up San Diego Week, I'm curious if you have thoughts on how founders could get the most out of those types of events. And what draws you back to Startup San Diego or startup weeks in general?
\n\nD'ONTRA: Just as a caveat to all this, even though I'm on the podcast and stuff like that, and I'm sure if you Googled my name, you'll see that I've been on TV and stuff, I generally don't like networking [laughs]. I'm a major introvert. So, like, when you put me in an event like that, it's very hard for me to talk to people. Like, when we met, it seems that would be contrary to what I'm saying because we were strangers, and I came over, and we started chatting and stuff like that. And by and large, like, that's not always, like, an easy thing for me to do.
\n\nThe reason why I'm saying that is that if you're that kind of person, do what you have to do to be more extroverted because sometimes that extroverted or that more open or welcoming side of you will allow for spontaneous interactions to occur. And so, when we think about events like, you know, Innovation Week or something like that, there's a lot of opportunity for you to either meet people that are on your journey or a similar journey like you who've been there done that, or even just to offer a different perspective.
\n\nAnd if you're in a place where you're open and constantly seeking, amazing things can happen, right? You could end up with your next co-founder. You could end up, you know, with your next investor. Or you could end up talking on a podcast with a stranger that you met just a few weeks ago, right? So, anything can happen. Keeping yourself open to the opportunity and the ability to extract as much value as you can out of those events.
\n\nIt's really interesting to kind of have your pulse on what's going on, even if it's outside your industry. We're a FinTech, but I go, and I pay attention to things that are going on in aerospace or in health because it's always good to, one, not completely have yourself submerged in just your industry, even though that might sound really great.
\n\nPeople like folks that can talk about a myriad of different topics [laughs]. So, it might be useful if you can go and have a chat with a stranger about, you know, what's the latest in aerospace, right? It gets you out of the brain drain of what it is that you do on a daily basis. But also, you get to learn some new things and cultivate some new relationships.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. Yeah, I listened to...I think it's Happiness Lab episode where they talk about random conversations with people those, like, sparks of innovation or things like ideas you never would have thought of if you hadn't run into this random person [laughs] and talked to them for five minutes about, you know, what they do in health tech, or what they do for their consumer product that they're building. So yeah, I think that's great.
\n\nAnd I've been excited to be here in Southern California for the last three years and starting to grow that network and meet people like yourself who are doing really interesting things. I'm curious if you have any questions for myself or about thoughtbot, or the podcast, or anything.
\n\nD'ONTRA: Yeah. So, you say that you've been here for three years. Tell me a little bit about your journey, how'd you get here, and why you chose the podcast life, right? As one of your many things.
\n\nVICTORIA: That is one of my many things, right? So, I grew up in Washington, D.C., And my career was in tech and civic tech. I was working for big three-letter agencies and some pseudo-federal banks like FDIC, and Fannie Mae, and PBGC, all the acronyms all the time. And we got an opportunity in early 2020 to move here for my husband's job. And we moved out here, and I decided to take a switch out of the federal space and get into more commercial consulting.
\n\nAnd I was lucky enough to find thoughtbot; they had a position that just looked great for me. And when I joined, you know, we have an internal collaboration thing called Hub that I think our CEO wrote and writes with the other people. All the developers on our team all contribute to it. But he posted a message about this Giant Robots podcast and if anybody wanted to be a new co-host. And I was like, "Sure, I've done a little podcasting here and there, and I have a microphone, so I'm ready to go."
\n\nAnd little did I realize just how popular the [chuckles] podcast was. And it ended up being a really great avenue for me to meet people and, learn more about their stories, and build relationships in a way that has been really impactful and meaningful. And like I said, you know, you never know how someone you meet might help you [laughs]. So, sometimes I'll interview people, and I'll get an idea about something that is, like, exactly relevant to the work that I am doing that week, just total kismet however it came about. So, that's how I got into podcasting and how I'm in thoughtbot and here in Southern California.
\n\nAnd so, I'm super lucky that I live in a place where there's lots of events going on all the time and lots of great people to meet. Between LA and San Diego, you could go to a different event every single day, probably [laughs], and meet people who are working on cool stuff.
\n\nSo, my background was really in operations and maintenance and taking federal agencies into more modern practices with digital services, and agile development, and DevOps. And now I'm taking kind of a similar lens but to commercial partners who are much faster and can make change quicker. And, in some cases, are doing things in even cooler ways than I could have thought and trying to think about how to move them forward with their infrastructure and how they deploy software.
\n\nD'ONTRA: That's fascinating. And, you know, it's difficult to be in Southern California, right? New events every day.
\n\nVICTORIA: And then yeah, I'll go walk my dog in the morning--
\n\nD'ONTRA: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: And people are out there surfing. And I'm like, I could surf all day. I don't have to work [laughs].
\n\nD'ONTRA: Right?
\n\nVICTORIA: But I do. I got to work.
\n\nD'ONTRA: It feels like the world of limitless possibility, right? [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. You almost feel, like, a pressure. Like, everyone else is starting their own company. Why am I not starting my company? Everyone's doing cool stuff all the time. So, you get motivated that way by being around a great group of people who are...everyone is very happy and sunny and [laughs] for the most part, the people are so nice.
\n\nD'ONTRA: Definitely a departure from the East Coast, right? And, like, I'm sure you came here with, like, that hustle mindset, where you're like, got to get it done, which is probably why you do, like, a million things. But then also, you have all of these people [laughs] that, like, I don't know, like, cares to the wind when they need to, right? Although you've got lots of successful people. But, sure, like, more or less down here, it's like, hey, you know, like, let's live life first and [laughs] make the dollars second.
\n\nVICTORIA: It's very casual. I got rid of all of my blazers. There's no more of that anymore [laughs]. People when they found out that I was moving to California, they were like, "That makes sense for you [laughs]," like, just the general, like, vibe.
\n\nD'ONTRA: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm a rock climber. So, they're like, of course, you're going to go somewhere where the outdoors is prioritized, yeah. Versus when you live in D.C., it's like the news is happening to you.
\n\nD'ONTRA: Yes [laughs].
\n\nVICTORIA: And it's very, very close. So yeah, it's interesting. I love it, though. And it's cool to take experience from that and then apply it to this world and how people might think about stuff. So, I was worried that, like, my experience might not translate, but it has. It's been very helpful [laughs] in some cases, right?
\n\nIs there anything else that you would like to promote today?
\n\nD'ONTRA: Yeah, so, you know, maybe for a future conversation, but in line with, you know, your background and what you're talking about, I would love to have a discussion around CRA, the Community Reinvestment Act, for those who don't understand the lingo, right? Because Spare's latest, like, golden nugget that we've really been just, like, kind of moving on and we're talking to federal regulators about is actually our impact on banks and the Community Reinvestment Act.
\n\nFor those who follow the news and know, you know, the time and space that we're in right now, there are some changes that are taking place inside of CRA. And it's very fascinating because when you say about your background of helping agencies kind of modernize things with digital, that's effectively what we're doing with our tech, and we're getting a lot of support from the government.
\n\nAnd so, you know, I think that we're really doing some very interesting things that are starting to get some really great attention. We recently partnered with Visa on one of our initiatives, and we're talking to a few other really large organizations and government organizations so that this technology can really be used at a scale, honestly, far beyond what I ever imagined. But when we talk about, like, actually helping people, we're doing it [laughs]. We're doing it in this very unique way, which I'm super stoked about. But maybe we'll have a chat about that in the future.
\n\nBut I think, you know, for those of you that are listening to this and you're curious, you know, what it is that we're working on, feel free to reach out. It's gotspare.com. Feel free to email me: ceo@gotspare.com. I'm generally in that email box every day. Or even just checking out our service, you know, searching Spare on the App Store or Google Play, and just going in and giving it a test drive. And, you know, we're happy to hear your thoughts.
\n\nAnd for those of you who are out there that may be looking for a new experience, we are definitely growing this team, and we want to expand as quickly as we can. We have some really aggressive initiatives for the organization over the next 12-18 months. And so, we're not going to do it on our own. I'm super stoked to where we're, like, we're at a place where we're like, we're actively building [laughs]. We're actively moving. And so, if there was a [inaudible 38:44] for us, whether it's supporting us as someone who uses the application or supporting us as a merchant who's in our community.
\n\nThere's lots of value that we're adding that we're turning back around to reach all small businesses. We're really working on combating inflation with our tech. And we've been able to do that, which is one of those really, like, refreshing byproducts of a tech company, or at least of our services. Like, we're actually adding real, true value to folks, and I'm super stoked about that.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's wonderful, and it's really close to my heart as someone who wants to see tech with purpose and who loves tech solving problems for people, especially groups of people that usually aren't the focus of founders who are trying to turn a quick buck, right [laughs]? The people who have real problems there's a real market there. It is a business, and it makes sense to start solving those problems. So, I'm really happy that you're working on it.
\n\nThank you so much for coming in today and being a guest on the show. We will include all those links and wonderful ways to reach out and get connected with you in the show notes.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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If you missed the first and second episodes with thoughtbot Incubator Program partcipant and founder Josh Herzig-Marks of Knect, you can listen to Josh's first episode and his second to catch up.
\n\nIn the third interview with Josh, Lindsey Christensen, head of Marketing at thoughtbot, and Jordyn Bonds, head of the Incubator Program at thoughtbot, discuss the progress of Knect in the thoughtbot Incubator Program. Most of the conversation involves identifying and focusing on the right target audience. Initially, they considered startup enthusiasts, but after exploring other segments like journalists, they returned to startup enthusiasts with a more refined focus. Josh also talks about developing a prototype and its usefulness in getting feedback and refining the product concept.
\n\nThe technical feasibility of integrating various communication platforms into their solution is a significant focus. They examined different platforms like email, LinkedIn, WhatsApp, Telegram, and SMS to determine which integrations were essential for the minimum viable product. Looking forward, Josh outlines the next steps for the program, which include finalizing high-quality prototypes and making strategic decisions about the scale and funding of the project.
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nLINDSEY: Hi, everyone.
\n\nJORDYN: Hi.
\n\nLINDSEY: Thanks for tuning in and joining. We're going to be checking in on one of our incubator program participants today. If you haven't joined us before, thoughtbot runs a startup incubator, about an eight-week program for the early, early, early-stage company, idea, founder project to validate that business, find the market, and start thinking about how you build that thing.
\n\nSo my name is Lindsey Christensen. I head up Marketing here at thoughtbot. And today, I am joined by Jordyn Bonds, who heads up the incubator program at thoughtbot. And our guest of honor checking in once again, Josh Herzig-Marks, Founder of Knect, the company going through the program. Thanks for joining.
\n\nJOSH: Super excited. I'm always excited.
\n\nLINDSEY: How's it going? How is your founder sentiment this week?
\n\nJOSH: This --
\n\nLINDSEY: Are you on a high? Are you on a low?
\n\nJOSH: I don't think I'm on a typically high-high. I'm a pretty even-keeled, chill founder. I think it's appropriately enthusiastic but not excessively so, and definitely not at a low trough.
\n\nLINDSEY: All right, even-keeled. We love to [crosstalk 01:19].
\n\nJOSH: Appropriately enthusiastic because we're doing really cool stuff. And this is a lot of fun.
\n\nLINDSEY: Well, that's great. So, I mean, [inaudible 01:25] that you're working on and especially the last time I checked in with you in the really early stages, trying to find that target niche audience or invalidate, like, the problem with them. How is that going? How's that search for the people with the problem going?
\n\nJOSH: Yeah. So just to, like, rewind the clock for the folks who maybe haven't seen every one of these, you know, there's a few things that I was trying to figure out to validate whether this problem that I saw was an opportunity for business. And, Jordyn, help me out if I forget some of these.
\n\nSo, number one, is this a Josh problem, or is this problem more broad? Question number two is, could we find an audience of people who are reachable, who share the problem, and who'd be willing to actually pay for this thing? And those little asterisks after pay, right? People pay for things with money but also with time or with reputation. Generally, we're thinking about money here, ultimately. But do they pay for this thing even in time? Would they be able to do that?
\n\nAnd the reason we're looking for that kind of a more narrow audience is because you got to build for somebody in the very beginning. This isn't, like, we're limiting ourselves to a narrow audience forever, but we wanted a set of people who we could design this thing for, have prototypes, share it, and hopefully get some consistent feedback so we can build a thing which they would find useful and use that from there. That was two things.
\n\nAnd the third thing: is this actually technically feasible? You know, the first time I was a founder, incidental to building our business, we built the world's fastest online transaction processing database that was processing, like, billions and billions of retail records in, like, the time it takes you to, like, click and drag and change the query that we're doing, which is really cool to say out loud, and it demoed really, really well. But that isn't actually a business.
\n\nAnd what I wanted is part of validating if this idea, if this problem was an opportunity or something that wasn't a science experiment. And I'd love to talk a little bit more about what we've been doing over the past week, maybe a little later on in this. Because I think it's been a big week for the science experiment or not validation stage of this thing.
\n\nSo, two things we've also done over the past week and a half, two weeks since the last time we chatted, we have a prototype, which looks pretty good, which we can now use to show to people who we think are our core starting audience, our core starting market, and we actually have a core starting market. Both of these things are pretty exciting. I mean, I'm always excited. But we're doing it, like, we're doing the thing that we're supposed to be doing, and I like that.
\n\nLINDSEY: That's really exciting. So, core starting market is happening. Do you want to talk about maybe how you got there?
\n\nJOSH: One of the reasons why I was excited about doing this program is Jordyn, and I share the understanding of its importance. But when you're, like, actually the founder, it's really hard to see this, right? Jordyn is like the...I don't know quite how to describe it, but Jordyn is the person who, like, made sure we stayed focused on this part of the effort. And, like, it's a really key part of the thoughtbot incubator. And it's one of the reasons why I'm really appreciative of having gone through the program.
\n\nJORDYN: So, Josh walked into the program with a problem that he had, which is frequently how products get made and companies get founded. Like, that's fine. It's a great starting place. And as he listed, his question was, is this a Josh problem, or is this a problem for more than just Josh? Because Josh isn't a market segment. Josh is an individual human [laughs]. And a lot of us have product ideas that we would love to have exist so that we can use them, but that doesn't make them good market opportunities. I may or may not be speaking from experience in that regard, ahem. Anyway, so part of the programming here was to figure this out.
\n\nAnd it's great to start with, like, okay, well, if Josh is our primary user, who is Josh? Is there a market of Joshs, right? So, we actually started off talking to those folks. And, you know, we're human beings, and we tend to hang out with people like ourselves. And so, Josh knew a lot of people like Josh.
\n\nOne of those people that he knew was me. I am like Josh in regard to this pain point. I also had it. And then I was connected to a bunch of people who had this pain point. So, we broadly spoke to a lot of those folks at first. I don't know that we really had a persona name for this. I don't know, how would you frame this?
\n\nJOSH: As you know, I only have poor pejorative names for people like us.
\n\nJORDYN: [laughs] Pejorative?
\n\nJOSH: There's, you know, a class of people who are at tech companies and startups, and sometimes they start their own companies, and sometimes they work at companies. And sometimes they do coaching. And sometimes they do a little bit of an investment. And sometimes they're on advisory boards. And, you know, when you kind of smoothly move from one thing to the next, sort of often doing several of these things all at the same time.
\n\nAnd there's not a really good name for them, but they're kind of people, like I might go so far to say the three of us, and maybe a lot of people who work at thoughtbot and a lot of people we've all worked with in the past and, hopefully, a lot of the people who are listening to this conversation because they, too, could slip into the founding a company stage of this business.
\n\nJORDYN: So, we've kind of loosely called those people, most recently, startup enthusiasts is our nickname, and there are a lot of folks under that umbrella. But as we talked to those people at this kind of high level, it was very broad. That maybe sounds fairly specific to some of you out there listening, but it's not specific, nearly specific enough to address with a product.
\n\nSo, we were talking. We were listening, getting people to talk to us, "Hey, tell us about how you keep in touch with folks. How does that go? What do you do? Have you ever built your own spreadsheet to keep track of people you know? Tell us about that." Broad questions. And we were learning things and hearing about trends. It wasn't coming into focus. We weren't hearing enough repeatable things. And we certainly weren't hearing about red, hot pain points. It was like a, "Yeah, this is kind of a problem sometimes, but not all the time. My system works more or less [inaudible 07:11].
\n\nThen we kind of found this range of personas. Some folks were just like, "I'm awesome at this. It's not a problem. I don't know what to tell you." Okay, well, clearly, that person doesn't need a product because they're feeling good. Great. At the other end of the spectrum, you have people who are just like, "I don't even know what you're talking about [laughs]. Like, this isn't [laughs]..."
\n\nThere were people who were like, "I know what you're talking about, but I'm good at it." There were people who were like, "I don't know what you're talking about. I don't care to ever do this." And then, there was this broad set of people in the middle who were like, "Yeah, I have a problem with this." But we were hearing a lot of different things.
\n\nIn the course of that, Rami, one of the folks on the team, ended up talking to a journalist. And that conversation was very interesting because it did seem like way more of a red, hot pain point with, like, something on the line. And we were like, oh, maybe we've been barking up the entire wrong tree and, like, startup enthusiasts aren't our people; journalists are our people. So, then we did a whole sprint with journalists and realized that journalists is a very broad umbrella [laughs]. There's a lot of different kinds of journalists in a lot of different kinds of contexts. And they have widely varying pain points, habits, needs, wants.
\n\nWe were like, okay, we're hearing some really interesting things in here, but they don't seem like early adopters because they are not the kind of people that just try an app who are just like, "Sure, new app, cool. I'll try that." Startup enthusiasts are people who just, like, try stuff. They're, like, on Product Hunt. They're friends with a bunch of founders, and those founders are, like, "Try this." And then they're like, "Sure, okay. Sure, I'll try it. I'll login." Login to anything once, right? Is kind of the attitude of this group of people, journalists not so much.
\n\nAnd so, it felt like it was going to be a really hard thing to address those folks. But we learned a ton. And we really ended up mapping the emotional train in a lot of detail. And as a group, like, we came to a lot of alignment. There was a lot of, like, really good understanding, deeper understanding having gone on that journey. But where we ended up back was like, okay, startup enthusiasts really actually seem like [laughs] a place to start. And it feels like there's enough of them that they could create some kind of early adopter market.
\n\nBut now, with the information that we had, the new information we had, we were like, let us sub-segment this group of people. It's not everybody in that umbrella. Doing that whole journey enabled us to kind of come back to the question with renewed focus, but, like, conviction about how valuable it was going to be to do that, right? And sometimes that's what it takes. You kind of have to do the wrong thing for a second to appreciate doing the right thing, and that's totally fine. The fact that we were able to do that in, what, five weeks is, like, fine.
\n\nJOSH: And I think the way that we found the sub-segment that made sense was actually pretty simple, right? Once we understood what are the dimensions that are actually important, we did a quick brainstorming session. This wasn't actually a very long process at the end of it, a quick brainstorming session. What are the different kinds of people who fall into this segment?
\n\nAnd we just scored them on all the easy things you'd expect to score people on, namely: are they easy to find and easy for us to reach? Do they advertise this quality of theirs someplace publicly, like, perhaps on LinkedIn? And are they easy to find? Like, do we have enough of them inside of our network so we could, like, search for these kinds of folks? And as it turns out, we've already spoken to a lot of these kinds of folks as well. And primarily, we're talking to repeat founders and/or chiefs of staff at startups.
\n\nJORDYN: If you are one of those people, please reach out to us. We'd like to talk to you.
\n\nJOSH: We would love it.
\n\nLINDSEY: Call to action. So, Josh, you mentioned one of the benefits of the program has been Jordyn's ability to kind of laser-focus on finding the target market. Jordyn, how do you do that? How do you keep the team coming back to that? Especially as sometimes it maybe doesn't take that long—sometimes it might feel like you're kind of circling around and around and still aren't finding anyone—and keeping folks motivated to do that or understanding, you know, when are we going to say, "This is it, you know, we're not finding someone"?
\n\nJORDYN: I'll talk about how it worked in this case. And every team is different and is motivated by different things. And this process is a little different every time, so it's hard to make generalizations. But in this case, what was interesting is that after we did our journalist sprint and we were like, we do want to refocus on startup enthusiasts, but we need to understand a little bit better what we're doing, we actually prototyped a little bit given what we knew, which seems like a bad idea [laughs] on the face of it. It seems premature.
\n\nThe purpose of doing that, then, was to really take a different path to drawing out of each of us what was in our lines. That's, like, so much of the work of a team at this stage is, like, making sure that we're externalizing the things that we're thinking and the assumptions that we have. And it's strange. You would think you would just be like, "Hey, tell me what's in your mind?" But minds don't work that way. You can't just be like, "Hey, mind, what's up?" And then articulate it perfectly in a way that everybody in this group is going to know what you mean.
\n\nSo, prototyping actually drew a bunch of that stuff out. It really...I think that was the moment...I don't know, Josh, how you feel about it. We had been kind of in the doldrums because we did get to the end of that journalists' sprint. And we were like, what are we doing? What have we learned? And prototyping at that moment enabled us to...it was a different way of understanding what we had learned and what we were all now thinking. And it really drew a bunch of dynamics out that it was super helpful.
\n\nJOSH: It brought some real sharpness to what we thought we'd be able to...the kind of value we thought we could deliver in the early versions of this thing, right? Fast forward two years, who knows? But it brought some sharpness to the kinds of problems that we thought we'd be able to fix and the kinds of problems we thought we couldn't solve. And that also clarified for us, certainly for me, why, oh, here's why this isn't really landing with the journalists, right? And here's why this isn't really landing with some other kinds of folks we were talking to. And --
\n\nJORDYN: Biz dev folks. We talked to a bunch of biz dev folks. It wasn't going to land with them, but yeah --
\n\nJOSH: They weren't at all excited about it, and then we can kind of understand why. One of the ways that I think about a prototype and I talk about this a lot, and I love doing this. Somebody called this a Pinocchio prototype, the wooden child who wants to be a real boy. Once we had a prototype, we could actually put it onto our actual phones.
\n\nAnd I'm not sure how many other people did this on the team besides me but, like, I would carry my phone around with a prototype on it. And every time I thought I might use it, I would pull the damn thing out of my pocket and, like, tap away on the phone. It gave me, again, a very clear sense of the kinds of things I thought we were moving towards solving and the kinds of things that we weren't really solving.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, Josh, you mentioned there were some exciting developments in the past week. Is that around the prototype?
\n\nJOSH: This is one. Having the prototype on there was good. It's also really nice to have this be part of a larger team. I was having a hard time. I had been playing with, like, our design team's paper prototype. I was having a hard time communicating what I was trying to do inside of my head. So, I built my own parallel prototype in Google Slides, which was exactly as awesome looking and as functional as everybody listening is imagining it must have been. If you would like your own copy of my Google Slides app development template, please reach out. I will share it [laughs].
\n\nBut it let me think a little bit, again, the same thing, like, here's how these things fit together. And then it started moving really, really fast. Once we were all putting things down in a way that we could play with, and touch, and talk about in a concrete way, it felt like that part of things started to move really fast. And the quality of our conversations improved with people we were talking to as well. I would say that's half of the things that are really exciting.
\n\nLINDSEY: Just to continue on the prototype for a second, Jordyn mentioned a major outcome of starting to use the prototype; well, I guess [inaudible 14:37] that you all as a team got better aligned around what you were envisioning for the solution. And then, it also helped you, again, kind of identify the true target market. Are there other things you're already learning from using the prototype and getting it in front of people?
\n\nJOSH: Yeah, I think there are. By the way, this shouldn't be surprising. This is, like, the classic diverge-converge model that I know thoughtbot uses all the time with not just startup clients when you're building something new. One of the things which, you know, rewind the clock six and a half weeks ago to when we started this thing. I didn't realize how much intelligence would be required behind the scenes to make this thing actually sensible to the final users.
\n\nAnd the more we show it to people, the more we realize that, like, intelligence to make things look simple is going to equal people actually using the damn thing. I think we started to see that ourselves in playing with it. But it's really important to have that be validated by actual potential users who aren't, like, in this shit themselves.
\n\nJORDYN: I mean, immediately, you know, we were able to start showing the prototype to the folks that we were having interviews with, and there's just nothing better than that because they're not going to pull their punches with you. And we got a lot of great immediate sort of spicy feedback [laughs] from people, especially if you're showing them to people who are, like, startup people [laughs], they're just not going to be nice. And so, there was a lot of [crosstalk 15:59].
\n\nJOSH: They're like, "Have you considered making this suck less?"
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, exactly. "I wouldn't use this at all [laughs]." You're just like, "Okay, thanks." Tell me how you really feel [laughs]. But it's great. I mean, like, there's nothing better than that. Like, I would way rather that than a bunch of people trying to be polite.
\n\nJOSH: And it also prompts feedback that we wouldn't necessarily have thought of, which is the idea of this. We [inaudible 16:20] thought of this on our own. Like the idea that sometimes you might want to not take an action when you don't really care about a person. But sometimes you really, like, dislike a person so much who you've been talking to you want to never see them again, right? Never show me this person again. It's a thing that we never would have come to, I think, if we hadn't, like, actually been showing the prototype to end users.
\n\nLINDSEY: Okay, what is the second half of the exciting thing that happened in the past week?
\n\nJOSH: This is very much a thoughtbot thing. thoughtbot is full of really talented engineers. And over the past couple of days, we've been able to bring a lot of those folks to bear on the question of like, is this thing technically feasible or not? Which was one of my big concerns. And it turns out, that was probably too large a question for the team that we started with.
\n\nAnd to be able to, like, do this, like, little discovery spike with, you know, going beyond the three-and-a-half thoughtboter team that we had to some of your most talented, most experienced engineering leads, not forever, but just for, like, a short moment is kind of, for me, at least, like, a real taste of, like, the thoughtbot value is, you know, Jordyn gets to put out a call for assistance, you know, across the company, and people raise their hands and put real-time in.
\n\nAnd, you know, we're able to do something in a couple of days that we probably couldn't have done because we have enough people. And, you know, all those, like, network effects of people coming together that could have taken us, you know, weeks or longer just kind of toiling on our own.
\n\nLINDSEY: For those technical challenges, maybe you don't want to get into specifics, but in broad strokes, can you talk about what some of those considerations are? And maybe at this point, maybe it makes sense to also talk a little bit about, like, how the solution, how you're thinking about the evolution of what the solution is and provides.
\n\nJOSH: I have an Android phone. I live in the world as a green bubble in a world of blue bubbles. My partner and I are in an interfaith relationship. She has an iPhone. I have an Android phone. And forever, people are accidentally trying to hit up my, like, iMessage account tied to my email address, and the things don't come through. And, all of a sudden, this company someplace in the U.S. figured out some way to, like, reverse engineer the Apple messages iMessages protocol, so I can put iMessages onto my Android phone. They built this thing. It's been, like, all over the tech news recently.
\n\nThis is the problem, if you're trying to bring together all of somebody's social network, is that there is no, like, handy-dandy API for iMessages. There is no handy-dandy API for regular SMS or RCS or any of those other variations of that. There is no handy-dandy API for WhatsApp, for Telegram, sort of ish, kind of maybe for Slack, not really for Discord. It remains to be seen how mature it is for LinkedIn. By the way, email works great, right? If we just build our entire lives off of email, we'd have none of these problems, but we can't.
\n\nAnd we had some hypotheses about ways that we could make connecting these other accounts easier. And we just took, like, an awful lot of hands, right? More than two hands. It took more than two hands to figure out if these things were possibilities if those things turn out to be true. And the answer is if they are true, which we're still working to figure out, though it's looking better and better, this isn't a science experiment, right? And if it's not true, then step one is an awful lot of engineer hours to go do what those Beeper Mini folks did and reverse engineer a whole bunch of protocols and systems that were never intended to be open in the first place.
\n\nJORDYN: I would like to say --
\n\nJOSH: Which is why we should all donate to EFF and promote an open internet so that startups like mine don't need to exist.
\n\nJORDYN: To loop back to your earlier question, Lindsey, about how to keep the team focused on who something is for, this conversation seems like it's not about that. But, to me, this conversation is also about that because we have a long list of messaging platforms that we have heard from folks, like from interviewing them would be useful to have brought into a single place.
\n\nThis was one of the key pain points that Josh has that we heard from other people, which is, like, you connect with people across platforms, right? You might be connected to some on LinkedIn, but you're also emailing with them. Your email history with them is not a complete history of your life with them. None of your online stuff is going to be a complete history because sometimes you actually interact with people [laughs] in reality, which is still, at this moment, not being recorded all the time, but probably not for long.
\n\nJOSH: As little as possible.
\n\nJORDYN: [laughs] But still, even within the online world, you're communicating with people across platforms. Maybe you text with someone, maybe you message on LinkedIn, whatever. And having complete context for your relationship with them in a way that makes it really easy to kind of, like, boot up that context in order to reach out to them for some reason, like, maybe you haven't talked in six months, and you just want to remember, where did I leave this relationship? What's going on with this person, right? You're like, where was I talking to them? Oh, I was talking to them in these four places that don't have very good protocols for being brought into the same interface, right? So, like, the stuff is, like, all connected.
\n\nBut to get back to the who question, we have this list of places we'd heard from people, like, in the early interviews and places that Josh was trying to do this connect with people, et cetera. So, it's, like, Slack DMs, and it's email, and it's LinkedIn, whatever. But we also heard Telegram, and we also heard other things. If we don't sufficiently focus on a narrow enough group of people, we risk making the MVP way too big because it needs to connect with every one of these things. And we can't go to market with something that doesn't connect with 12 platforms or something, right?
\n\nBut because we're sufficiently focused, we could actually do the thing where we're like, okay, well, out of this list of platforms, what are, like, the top five? Where is the line? Where's the minimum viability here with what we can connect with that will actually bring value? And I also am an Android user living in an iPhone world. And Josh and I at least have enough awareness to be like, you know what? Maybe Android isn't necessary, even though we would love [laughs] for it to be there. Nine times out of 10, the people that look like us are using iPhones, right? So great, cool. Let's just do the thing.
\n\nJOSH: Obligatory iPhone test device.
\n\nJORDYN: Right. I have one, too, but I don't know where it is. So, like, the question of who really matters. Who, like, really helps you focus? If your answer to "Who?" is anybody with a smartphone, well, like, it's going to be really tough to build an actual MVP that's buildable. So, this question that Josh brought in to us, which is, like, "What's technically feasible here?" really intersects very directly with this question of who are we building for? Because you really want to be able to start somewhere.
\n\nAnd, you know, if you have a sufficiently red, hot need and it's not, like, to time travel or something that is, like, probably impossible given the laws of our universe, you can find a way, right? And so, the question was, like, why don't we find that so that we can focus on whether it's worth finding a way? And then that intersection of who it's for, what their pain points are, and what's possible with what amount of effort. It all fits together. No single one of those pieces is sufficient for figuring out a path forward.
\n\nLINDSEY: And are you taking the, you know, okay, we've gotten really good sight on these startup enthusiasts, and these are their top four communication methods; let's try to solve them? Is that the approach?
\n\nJORDYN: More or less, yeah. Yes. It's like, can we interface with those top...I think for us, it's like a top five, maybe six.
\n\nJOSH: Five or six.
\n\nJORDYN: But, like, the first one on there is email, and that's not a problem. Like, we don't...that's fine. LinkedIn is also not a problem; one and two are email, and LinkedIn: good. We're cool with that. That's okay.
\n\nJOSH: Because every individual has their own thing. So, you know, you may be talking about long tail services, you know, but for the person who uses Telegram as their, like, daily driver, which isn't most people in the U.S., but there's a lot of people abroad, not having Telegram means it isn't useful. And I think that's one of the things hard about this, right? This is a hard business potentially, or it's really easy. We have no idea yet. And that's part of what I find exciting about this is because over the next, you know, week or so, we'll find out how hard a business this is actually, or at least where are the technically difficult parts?
\n\nLINDSEY: Great segue. What does the next week look like as we've got market niche, prototype, technical feasibility intersectioning, figuring those things out? What exciting things are on the horizon? What's next?
\n\nJOSH: So, we have about two weeks left, and at the end of two weeks, we're going to end up with a set of high-quality prototypes, which, you know, are easy for any of us to have on our phones, and to flash around to rando strangers we meet at the grocery store because there's no better way to make friends than product testing. And we'll have a good sense of how big and complicated, and complicated in what ways might it be to build this thing.
\n\nAnd then, it's time for Josh to make some decisions around, you know, the whole goal of this was to figure out, like, how big of an opportunity is this just to go and do that? What could growth look like? What could pricing look like? Where might the costs be? What would the cost be to build this? Is this, like, a side gig scale thing? Is it a small, you know, angel-funded startup thing? Is this, like, a VC-size thing? I really hope it's not a VC-size thing.
\n\nAnd then to think about, you know, what are the resources that would be required to build it, and where might those resources come from? So, at the end of this, two weeks out from now, I think we'll have all the information, you know, that we need. And then, I know a whole bunch of people inside of thoughtbot who are in a great place to provide their own thoughts and advice and experience and feedback on this.
\n\nAnd I'll take this to my personal board of directors, including my family, but also, you know, other experienced entrepreneurs and investors I know, and we'll talk through this. And we'll have to go make some decisions, which is a little scary and a little bit fun, but a nice way to kick off 2024.
\n\nJORDYN: And a lot easier to do after this program.
\n\nJOSH: We'll have some real information, right? [laughs]
\n\nJORDYN: Yes.
\n\nLINDSEY: That's the goal, right?
\n\nJOSH: Yeah.
\n\nLINDSEY: Of the incubator to get you in that spot where you can make educated decisions and get others up to speed really quickly with all that research.
\n\nJOSH: That's right.
\n\nLINDSEY: That's great. All right. So, you had a call to action earlier. What was that? Oh, if startup enthusiasts are listening, we want to chat with them and talk to them about the solution.
\n\nJOSH: If you're a founder, if you're a multi-time founder and either done it a couple of times in the past or you're still doing it, reach out. If you are a startup chief of staff and you can define that role for yourself, please reach out. We'd love to talk to you there as well. If you would like a copy of Josh's free wireframing template for mobile apps, please reach out, and I will be happy to provide you that as well.
\n\nLINDSEY: Amazing. Thank you once again, Josh and Jordyn, for joining and catching us up. It definitely was an exciting update. I can't wait to hear what happens in the final stretch.
\n\nJOSH: Me too.
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Special Guests: Jordyn Bonds and Josh Herzig-Marx .
","summary":"In the third interview with Josh, Lindsey Christensen, head of Marketing at thoughtbot, and Jordyn Bonds, head of the Incubator Program at thoughtbot, discuss the progress of Knect in the thoughtbot Incubator Program. Most of the conversation involves identifying and focusing on the right target audience. Initially, they considered startup enthusiasts, but after exploring other segments like journalists, they returned to startup enthusiasts with a more refined focus. Josh also talks about developing a prototype and its usefulness in getting feedback and refining the product concept.\r\n\r\nThe technical feasibility of integrating various communication platforms into their solution is a significant focus. They examined different platforms like email, LinkedIn, WhatsApp, Telegram, and SMS to determine which integrations were essential for the minimum viable product. Looking forward, Josh outlines the next steps for the program, which include finalizing high-quality prototypes and making strategic decisions about the scale and funding of the project.","date_published":"2023-12-12T00:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/5ea26396-39b8-498b-b76b-bec44c3c6016.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":32082539,"duration_in_seconds":1650}]},{"id":"635f974a-f575-4a3a-b66a-8cb28cc9aa89","title":"503: Epic Web and Remix with Kent C. Dodds","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/503","content_text":"Kent C. Dodds, a JavaScript engineer and teacher known for Epic Web Dev and the Remix web framework, reflects on his journey in tech, including his tenure at PayPal and his transition to full-time teaching. \n\nKent's passion for teaching is a constant theme throughout. He transitioned from corporate roles to full-time education, capitalizing on his ability to explain complex concepts in an accessible manner. This transition was marked by the creation of successful online courses like \"Testing JavaScript and Epic React,\" which have significantly influenced the web development community.\n\nAn interesting aspect of Kent's career is his involvement with Remix, including his decision to leave Shopify (which acquired Remix) to return to teaching, which led to the development of his latest project, Epic Web Dev, an extensive and innovative web development course.\n\nThis interview provides a comprehensive view of Kent C. Dodds's life and career, showcasing his professional achievements in web development and teaching, his personal life as a family man, and his unique upbringing in a large family.\n\n\n\n\nEpic Web\nRemix\nFollow Kent C. Dodds on LinkedIn or X. Visit his website at kentcdodds.com.\nFollow thoughtbot on X or LinkedIn.\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. And with me today is Kent C. Dodds. Kent is a JavaScript engineer and teacher. He has recently released a massive workshop called epicweb.dev. And he is the father of four kids. Kent, thank you for joining me.\n\nKENT: Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be here.\n\nWILL: Yeah. And it's an honor for me to have you. I am a huge fan. I think you're the one that taught me how to write tests and the importance of it. So, I'm excited to talk to you and just pick your brain and learn more about you. \n\nKENT: Oh, thank you. \n\nWILL: Yeah. So, I just want to start off just: who is Kent? What do you like to do? Tell us about your family, your hobbies, and things like that.\n\nKENT: Yeah, sure. So, you mentioned I'm the father of four kids. That is true. We are actually expecting our fifth child any day now. So, we are really excited to have our growing family. And when I'm not developing software or material for people to learn how to develop software, I'm spending time with my family. I do have some other hobbies and things, but I try to share those with my family as much as I can. \n\nSo, it's starting to snow around here in Utah. And so, the mountains are starting to get white, and I look forward to going up there with my family to go skiing and snowboarding this season. During the summertime, I spend a lot of time on my one-wheel just riding around town and bring my kids with me when I can to ride bikes and stuff, too. So, that's sort of the personal side of my life. \n\nAnd then, professionally, I have been in this industry developing for the web professionally for over a decade. Yeah, web development has just worked out super well for me. I kind of focused in on JavaScript primarily. And when I graduated with a master's degree in Information Systems at Brigham Young University, I started working in the industry. \n\nI bounced around to a couple of different companies, most of them you don't know, but you'd probably be familiar with PayPal. I was there for a couple of years and then decided to go full-time on teaching, which I had been doing as, like, a part-time thing, or, like, on the side all those years. And yeah, when teaching was able to sustain my family's needs, then I just switched full-time. So, that was a couple of years ago that I did that. I think like, 2018 is when I did that. \n\nI took a 10-month break to help Remix get off the ground, the Remix web framework. They got acquired by Shopify. And so, I went back to full-time teaching, not that I don't like Shopify, but I felt like my work was done, and I could go back to teaching. So, that's what I'm doing now, full-time teacher.\n\nWILL: Wow. Yes, I definitely have questions around that. \n\nKENT: [laughs] Okay.\n\nWILL: So many. But I want to start back...you were saying you have four kids. What are their ages? \n\nKENT: Yeah, my oldest is 11, youngest right now is 6, and then we'll have our fifth one. So, all four of the kids are pretty close in age. And then my wife and I thought we were done. And then last December, we kind of decided, you know what? I don't think we're done. I kind of think we want to do another. So, here we go. We've got a larger gap between my youngest and the next child than we have between my oldest and the youngest child. \n\nWILL: [chuckles]\n\nKENT: So, we're, like, starting a new family, or [laughs] something. \n\nWILL: Yeah [laughs]. I just want to congratulate you on your fifth child. That's amazing. \n\nKENT: Thank you. \n\nWILL: Yeah. How are you feeling about that gap?\n\nKENT: Yeah, we were pretty intentional about having our kids close together because when you do that, they have built-in friends that are always around. And as they grow older, you can do the same sorts of things with them. So, like, earlier this year, we went to Disneyland, and they all had a great time. They're all at the good age for that. And so, they actually will remember things and everything. \n\nYeah, we were pretty certain that four is a good number for us and everything. But yeah, we just started getting this nagging feeling we wanted another one. So, like, the fact that there's a big gap was definitely not in the plan. But I know a lot of people have big gaps in their families, and it's just fine. So, we're going to be okay; just it's going to change the dynamic and change some plans for us. But we're just super excited to have this next one.\n\nWILL: I totally understand what you mean by having them close together. So, I have three little ones, and my oldest and my youngest share the same exact birthday, so they're exactly three years apart. \n\nKENT: Oh, wow. Yeah, that's actually...that's fun. My current youngest and his next oldest brother are exactly two years apart. They share the same birthday, too [laughs].\n\nWILL: Wow. You're the first one I've heard that their kids share a birthday.\n\nKENT: Yeah, I've got a sister who shares a birthday with her son. And I think we've got a couple of birthdays that are shared, but I also have 11 brothers and sisters [laughs]. And so, I have got a big family, lots of opportunity for shared birthdays in my family. \n\nWILL: Yeah, I was actually going to ask you about that. How was it? I think you're the 11th. So, you're the youngest of 11?\n\nKENT: I'm the second youngest. So, there are 12 of us total. I'm number 11.\n\nWILL: Okay, how was that growing up with that many siblings?\n\nKENT: I loved it. Being one of the youngest I didn't really...my experience was very different from my older siblings. Where my older siblings probably ended up doing a fair bit of babysitting and helping around the house in that way, I was the one being babysat. And so, like, by the time I got to be, like, a preteen, or whatever, lots of my siblings had already moved out. I was already an uncle by the time I was six.\n\nI vaguely remember all 12 of us being together, but most of my growing up was just every other year; I'd have another sibling move out of the house, which was kind of sad. But they'd always come back and visit. And now I just have an awesome relationship with every one of my family members. And I have something, like, 55 nieces and nephews or more. Yeah, getting all of us together every couple of years for reunions is really a special experience. It's a lot of fun.\n\nWILL: Yeah. My mom, she had 12 brothers and sisters.\n\nKENT: Whoa.\n\nWILL: And I honestly miss it because we used to get together all the time. I used to live a lot closer. Most of them are in Louisiana or around that area, and now I'm in South Florida, so I don't get to see them as often. But yeah, I used to love getting together. I had so many cousins, and we got in so much trouble...and it was --\n\nKENT: [laughs]\n\nWILL: We loved it [laughs].\n\nKENT: Yeah, that's wonderful. I love that. \n\nWILL: Yeah. Well, I want to start here, like, how did you get your start? Because I know...I was doing some research, and I saw that, at one point, you were an AV tech. You were a computer technician. You even did maintenance. Like, what was the early start of your career like, and how did you get into web dev?\n\nKENT: I've always been very interested in computers, my interest was largely video games. So, when I was younger, I had a friend who was a computer programmer or, like, would program stuff. We had visions of...I don't know if you're familiar with RuneScape, but it's this game that he used to play, and I would play a little bit. It was just a massive online multiplayer game. And so, we had visions of building one of those and having it just running in the background, making us money, as if that's how that works [laughter]. But he tried to teach me programming, and I just could not get it at all. \n\nAnd so I realized at some point that playing video games all the time wasn't the most productive use of my time on computers, and if I wanted my parents to allow me to be on computers, I needed to demonstrate that I could be productive in learning, and making things, and stuff. So, I started blogging and making videos and just, like, music videos.\n\nMy friend, who was the programmer, he was into anime, or anime, as people incorrectly pronounce it. And [laughs] there was this website called amv.com or .org or something. It's Anime Music Videos. And so, we would watch these music videos. And I'd say, \"I want to make a music video with Naruto.\" And so, I would make a bunch of music videos from the Naruto videos I downloaded, and that was a lot of fun. I also ran around with a camera to do that. \n\nAnd then, with the blog, I wrote a blog about Google and the stuff that Google was, like, doing because I just thought it was a fascinating company. I always wanted to work at Google. In the process of, like, writing the blog, I got exposed to CSS and HTML, but I really didn't do a whole lot of programming. I also did a little bit of Google Docs. Spreadsheets had some JavaScript macros-type things that you could do. So, I did a little bit of that, but I never really got too far into programming. \n\nThen I go to college, I'm thinking, you know what? I think I want to be a video editor. I really enjoy that. And so, my brother, who at the time was working at Micron, he did quality assurance on the memory they were making. So, he would build test automation, software and hardware for testing the memory they build. And so, he recommended that I go into electrical engineering. Because what he would say is, \"If you understand computers at that foundational level, you can do anything with computers.\" And I'd say, \"Well, I like computers. And if I go into video editing, I'm going to need to understand computers, too. So yeah, sure, let's let's do that.\" \n\nI was also kind of interested in 3D animation and stuff like that, too. Like, I wasn't very good at it, but I was kind of interested in that, too. So, I thought, like, having a really good foundation on computers would be a good thing for me. Well, I was only at school for a semester when I took a break to go on a mission for my church [inaudible 09:42] mission. And when I got back and started getting back into things, I took a math refresher course. That was, like, a half a credit. It wasn't really a big thing, but I did terrible in it. I did so bad. \n\nAnd it was about that time that I realized, you know what? I've been thinking my whole life that I'm good at math. And just thinking back, I have no idea why or any justification for why I thought I was good at math because in high school, I always struggled with it. I spent so much time with it. And in fact, my senior year, I somehow ended up with a free period of nothing else to do. I don't know how this happened. But, I used that free period to go to an extra edition of my calculus class. So, I was going to twice as much calculus working, like, crazy hard and thinking that I was good at this, and I superduper was not [laughter]. \n\nAnd so, after getting back from my mission and taking that refresher course, I was like, you know what? Math is a really important part of engineering, and I'm not good at it at all, obviously. And so, I've got to pivot to something else. Well, before my mission, as part of the engineering major, you needed to take some programming classes. So, there was a Java programming class that I took and a computer systems class that included a lot of programming. \n\nThe computer systems was very low level, so we were doing zeros and ones. And I wrote a program in zeros and ones. All that it did was it would take input from the keyboard, and then spit that back out to you as output. That was what it did. But still, you know, many lines of zeros and ones and just, like, still, I can't believe I did that [laughter]. And then we upgraded from that to Assembly, and what a godsend that was [laughs], how wonderful Assembly was after working in machine code. But then we upgraded from that to C, and that's as far as that class went. And then, yeah, my Java class, we did a bunch of stuff. \n\nAnd I just remember thinking or really struggling to find any practicality to what we were doing. Like, in the Java class, we were implementing the link to list data structure. And I was like, I do not care about this. This does not make any sense. Why should I care? We were doing these transistor diagrams in the computer systems class. And why do I care about that? I do not care about this at all. Like, this is not an interesting thing for me. So, I was convinced computer programming was definitely not what I wanted to do. \n\nSo, when I'm switching from electrical engineering, I'm thinking, well, what do I do? And my dad convinced me to try accounting. That was his profession. He was a certified public accountant. And so, I said, \"Okay, I'll try that.\" I liked the first class, and so I switched my major to go into the business school for accounting. I needed to take the next accounting class, and I hated that so much. It was just dull and boring. And I'm so glad that I got out of that because [laughs] I can't imagine doing anything like that. \n\nWILL: [laughs]\n\nKENT: But as part of switching over to business school, I discovered information systems. What's really cool about that is that we were doing Excel spreadsheets and building web pages. But it was all, like, with a practical application of business and, like, solving business problems. And then, I was like, oh, okay, so I can do stuff with computers in a practical setting, and that's what got me really interested. So, I switched, finally, to information systems–made it into that program. And I was still not convinced I wanted to do programming. I just wanted to work with computers.\n\nWhat ended up happening is the same time I got into the information systems program, I got married to my wife, and then I got this part-time job at a company called the More Good Foundation. It's a non-profit organization. And one of my jobs was to rip DVDs and upload those videos to YouTube, and then also download videos from one site and upload those to YouTube as well. And so, I was doing a lot of stuff with YouTube and video stuff. \n\nAnd as part of my information systems class, I was taking another Java class. At that same time, I was like, you know, what I'm doing at work is super boring. Like, can you imagine your job is to put in a [inaudible 13:45] and then click a couple of buttons? And, like, it was so boring and error-prone, too. Like, okay, now I've got to type this out and, you know, I got to make sure it's the same, try and copy-paste as much as I can. And it was not fun. \n\nAnd so, I thought, well, I'm pretty sure there are pieces of this that I could automate. And so, with the knowledge that I was getting in my information systems programming class, that was another Java class, I decided to write a program that automated a bunch of my stuff. And so, I asked my boss, like, \"Can I automate this with writing software?\" And I'm so glad that they said I could. \n\nWILL: [laughs]\n\nKENT: Because by the end of it, I had built software that allowed me to do way more than I ever could have before. I ended up uploading thousands of videos to their YouTube channels, which would have taken years to do. And they ended up actually being so happy with me. They had me present to the board of directors when they were asking for more money [laughs] and stuff. And it was really awesome. But still, I was not interested in being a programmer. Programming, to me, was just a means to an end. \n\nWILL: Oh, wow. \n\nKENT: Yeah, I guess there was just something in me that was like, I am not a programmer. So, anyway, further into the program of information systems, I interned as a business intelligence engineer over that next summer, and I ended up staying on there. And while I was supposed to be a business intelligence engineer, I did learn a lot about SQL, and star schema, and denormalized databases to optimize for read speed and everything. I learned a lot about that. But I just kept finding myself in positions where I would use my programming experience to automate things that were problematic for us in the business realm. And this was all still Java. \n\nIt was there that I finally realized, you know what? I think I actually do want to be a programmer. I actually really do enjoy this. And I like that it's practical, and it makes sense for me, so…\n\nWILL: What year was that?\n\nKENT: That would have been 2012. Then I got a new job where my job was actually to be a programmer at a company called Domo, where they do business intelligence, actually. So, it got my foot in the door a little bit since I was a business intelligence engineer already. I got hired on, actually, as a QA engineer doing automated testing, but I never really got into that. And they shifted me over pretty quick into helping with the web app. \n\nAnd that is when I discovered JavaScript, and the whole, like, everything flooded out from there. I was like, wow, I thought I liked programming, but I had no idea how fun it could be. Because I felt like the chains had been broken. I no longer have to write Java. I can write JavaScript, and this was just so much better. \n\nWILL: [laughs]\n\nKENT: And so, yeah, I was there for a year and a half before I finally graduated. And I took a little break to work at USAA for a summer internship. And when I came back, I had another year and then converted to full-time. And so, yeah, there's my more detail than you were probably looking for, story of how I got into programming [laughs]. \n\nWILL: No, I actually love it because like I said, I've used your software, your teachings, all that. And it's amazing to hear the story of how you got there. Because I feel like a lot of times, we just see the end result, but we don't know the struggle that you went through of even trying to find your way through what your purpose was, what you're trying to do. Because, at one point, you said you were trying to do accounting, then you were trying to do something else. So, it's amazing to see, like, when it clicked for you when you got into JavaScript, so that's amazing. \n\nKENT: Yeah, it is kind of funny to think, like, some people have the story of, like, I knew I wanted to be a programmer from the very beginning, and it's just kind of funny for me to think back and, like, I was pretty certain I didn't want to be a programmer. \n\nWILL: [laughs]\n\nKENT: Like, not only did I, like, lots of people will say, \"I never really thought about it, and then I saw it, and it was great.\" But I had thought about it. And I saw it, and I thought it was awful [laughter]. And so, yeah, I'm really glad that it worked out the way it did, though, because programming has just been a really fun thing. Like, I feel so blessed to be doing something that I actually enjoy doing. \n\nLike so many of our ancestors, they would go to work because they cared about their family and they just wanted to feed their family. I'm so grateful to them for doing that. I am so lucky that I get to go to work to take care of my family, but also, I just love doing it. \n\nWILL: Yeah, I feel the same way, so yeah, totally agree. After you found out about JavaScript, when did you figure out that you want to teach JavaScript? What was that transition like?\n\nKENT: I've been teaching for my whole life. It's ingrained in my religion. Even as a kid, you know, I'd prepare a talk, a five-minute talk, and stand up in front of 30 of my peers. And even when you're an early teenager, you get into speaking in front of the entire congregation. It took a while before I got good enough at something, enough hubris to think that people would care about what I have to say --\n\nWILL: [laughs]\n\nKENT: Outside of my religion where, like, they're sitting there, and I've been asked to speak, and so they're going to listen to me. And so, when I started getting pretty good at programming, I decided, hey, I want to teach this stuff that I'm learning. And so, when I was still at school and working at Domo, the business intelligence company, one of our co-workers, Dave Geddes, he put together a workshop to teach AngularJS because we were migrating from Backbone to Angular. And I asked him if I could use his workshop material to teach my classmates. \n\nThis was, like, soon after ng-conf, the first ng-conf, which my co-workers at Domo actually put on. So, I wasn't involved in the organization, but I was very much present when it was being organized. I attended there and developed a relationship with Firebase with the people there. I was actually...they had a developer evangelist program, which they called Torchbearers or something. And actually, that was my idea to call them Torchbearers. I think they wanted to call us torches, and I'm like, that just doesn't make sense. \n\nWILL: [laughs]\n\nKENT: I developed a relationship with them. And I asked them, \"Hey, I want to teach my classmates AngularJS. Would you be interested in sponsoring some pizza and stuff?\" And they said, \"Yeah, we'll send you stickers, and hot sauce, and [laughs] a bunch of...\" Like, they sent us, like, headphones [laughs] and stuff. So, I was like, sweet. I taught my classmates AngularJS in a workshop, brought a bunch of pizza, and it was, you know, just an extracurricular thing. \n\nAnd actually, the recording is still on my YouTube channel, so if you want to go look at one of my early YouTube videos. I was very into publishing video online. So, if you are diligent, you'll be able to find some of my very early [laughter] videos from my teenage years. \n\nBut anyway, so, yes, I've been teaching since the very beginning. As soon as I graduated from college, I started speaking at meetups. I'd never been to a meetup before, and I just saw, oh, they want a speaker. I can talk about something. \n\nWILL: Wow.\n\nKENT: And not realizing that, like, meetups are literally always looking for speakers. This wasn't some special occasion.\n\nWILL: [laughs]\n\nKENT: And one of the meetups I spoke at was recorded and put on YouTube. And the guy who started Egghead io, John Lindquist, he is local here in Utah. And he saw that I spoke at that meetup, but he wasn't able to attend. So, he watched the recording, and he thought it was pretty good. He thought I would do a good job turning that into a video course. And that first video course paid my mortgage. \n\nWILL: Wow. \n\nKENT: And I was blown away. This thing that I had been doing just kind of for fun speaking at meetups, and I realized, oh, I can actually, like, make some legit good money out of this. From there, I just started making more courses on the side after I put the kids to bed. My wife is like, \"Hey, I love you, but I want you to stay away for now because I've just been with these tiny babies all day. \n\nWILL: [laughs]\n\nKENT: And I just need some alone time.\" \n\nWILL: Yes.\n\nKENT: And so, I was like, okay. \n\nWILL: [laughs]\n\nKENT: I'll just go and work on some courses. And so, I spent a lot of time for the next couple of years doing course material on the side. I reached out to Frontend Masters and just told them, \"Hey, I've been doing courses for Egghead.\" I actually met Marc Grabanski at a conference a couple of years before. And so, we established a little bit of relationship. And I just said, \"Hey, I want to come and teach there.\" So, I taught at Frontend Masters. I started putting on my own workshops at conferences. \n\nIn fact, just a few months after graduating, I got accepted to speak at a conference. And only after I was accepted did I realize it was in Sweden [laughter]. I didn't think to look where in the world this conference was. So, that was my first international trip, actually, and I ended up speaking there. I gave, actually, two talks. One of them was a three-hour talk. \n\nWILL: Whoa. \n\nKENT: Which was, yeah, that was wild. \n\nWILL: [laughs]\n\nKENT: And then, yeah, I gave a two-day workshop for them. And then, I flew straight from there to Amsterdam to give another talk and also do a live in-person podcast, which I'd been running called ngAir, an Angular podcast. It just kept on building from there until finally, I created testingjavascript.com. And that was when I realized, oh, okay, so this isn't just a thing I can use to pay my mortgage, and that's nice. This is, like, a thing I can do full-time. Because I made more with Testing JavaScript than I made from my PayPal salary.\n\nWILL: Oh wow.\n\nKENT: I was like, oh, I don't need both of these things. I would rather work half as much one full-time job; that's what I want, one full-time job and make enough to take care of my family. And I prefer teaching. So, that's when I left PayPal was when I released Testing JavaScript.\n\nWILL: Wow. So, for me, I think so many times the imposter syndrome comes up whenever I want to teach or do things at the level you're saying you're doing. Because I love teaching. I love mentoring. I remember when I came into development, it was hard. I had to find the right person to help me mentor. So now, I almost made a vow to myself that if someone wants to learn and they're willing to put in the energy, I'm going to sit down however long it takes to help them because I remember how hard it was for me whenever I was doing it. \n\nSo, you said in 2014, you were only a couple years doing development. How did you overcome impostor syndrome to stand in front of people, teach, go around the world, and give talks and podcasts? Like, how did you do that portion?\n\nKENT: Part of it is a certain level of hubris like I said. Like, you just have to be willing to believe that somebody's going to care. You know, the other part of it is, it's a secret to getting really, really good at something. They sometimes will say, like, those who can't do teach. That's total baloney because it requires a lot of being able to do to get you in a position where you can teach effectively. But the process of teaching makes you better at the process of doing as well. It's how you solidify your experience as a whatever. So, if you're a cook, you're really good at that; you will get better by teaching other people how to cook. \n\nThere's an element of selfishness in what I do. I just want to get really, really good at this, and so I'm going to teach people so that I can. So yeah, I think there's got to be also, like, a little bit of thick skin, too, because people are going to maybe not like what you have to share or think that you're posing or whatever. Learn how to let that slide off you a little bit. \n\nBut another thing is, like, as far as that's concerned, just being really honest about what your skill set is. So, if somebody asks me a question about GraphQL, I'm going to tell them, \"Well, I did use GraphQL at PayPal, but I was pretty limited. And so, I don't have a lot of experience with that,\" and then I'll answer their question. And so, like, communicating your limitations of knowledge effectively and being okay being judged by people because they're going to judge you. It just is the way it is. So, you just have to learn how to cope well with that.\n\nThere are definitely some times where I felt like I was in over my head on some subjects or I was involved in a conversation I had no business being there. I actually felt that a lot when I was sent as PayPal's delegate to the TC39 meetings. Wow, what am I doing here? I've only been in the industry for, like, two or three years at [laughter] that point. It takes a certain level of confidence in your own abilities. But also, like, being realistic about your inexperience as well, I think, is important too.\n\nWILL: Yeah, I know that you had a lot of success, and I want to cover that next. But were there any failures when you were doing those teaching moments? \n\nKENT: Years ago, Babel was still a new thing that everybody was using to compile their JavaScript with new syntax features down to JavaScript that the browser could run. There was ES Modules that was introduced, and lots of us were doing global window object stuff. And then we moved to, like, defining your dependencies with r.js or RequireJS. And then, there was CommonJS, and Universal Module Definition, and that sort of thing. So, ECMAScript modules were very exciting. Like, people were really interested in that. And so, Babel added support to it. It would compile from the module syntax down to whatever you wanted: CommonJS or...well, I'm pretty sure it could compile to RequireJS, but I compiled it to CommonJS. \n\nAnd so, there was a...yeah, I would say it's a bug in Babel at that time, where it would allow you to write your ES modules in a way that was not actually spec-compliant. It was incorrect. So, I would say export default some object, and then in another module, I would say import. And then, I'd select properties off of the object that I exported, that default I exported. That was allowed by Babel, but it is superduper, not how ECMAScript modules work. \n\nWell, the problem is that I taught, like, a ton of people how to use ECMAScript modules this way. And when I realized that I was mistaken, it was just, like, a knife to the heart because I was, like, I taught so many people this wrong thing. And so, I wrote a blog post about it. I gave a big, long talk titled “More Than You Want to Know About ECMAScript Modules,” where I talk about that with many other things as well. And so, yeah, just trying to do my part to make up for the mistake that I made. So yes, I definitely have had mistakes like that. \n\nThere's also, like, the aspect that technology moves at a rapid pace. And so, I have old things that I would show people how to do, which they still work just as well as they worked back then. But I wouldn't recommend doing it that way because we have better ways now. For some people, the old way to do it is the only way they can do it based on the constraints they have and the tools that they're using and stuff. And so, it's not, like, it's not valuable at all. But it is a struggle to make sure that people understand that, like, this is the way that you do it if you have to do it this way, but, like, we've got better ways.\n\nWILL: I'm glad you shared that because it helps. And I love how you say it: when I make a mistake, I own up to it and let everyone know, \"Hey, I made a mistake. Let's correct it and move on.\" So, I really like that. \n\nKENT: Yeah, 100%.\n\nMID-ROLL AD:\n\nAre your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features?\n\nWe know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it’s easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn’t looking.\n\nBy delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer.\n\nSave time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops.\n\nWILL: I want to go back to what you were saying. When you left PayPal, you released Testing JavaScript. How did you come up with the idea to write a Testing JavaScript course? And, two, how long did it take to take off and be successful? \n\nKENT: That was a pretty special thing, honestly. In 2018, I had put together a bunch of workshops related to testing. There was this conference called Assert(js) that invited me to come, taught them. In the year prior, I went to Midwest JS and taught how to test React. I had this material about testing. I'd gotten into testing just because of open-source stuff. I didn't want to have to manually go through all my stuff again every time I wanted to check for breakages and stuff, so that got me into testing. And whatever I'm into is what I'm going to teach. So, I started teaching that testing. \n\nAnd then my friend, Ryan Florence, put together...he separated from Michael Jackson with React Training, and built his own thing called Workshop.me. He asked me to join up with him. And he would, like, put together these workshops for me, and I would just...my job was just to show up and teach. And so, I did that. I have a picture, actually, in this blog post, The 2010s Decade in Review, of me in front of 60 people at a two-day workshop at Trulia in San Francisco. \n\nWILL: Oh, wow.\n\nKENT: And this is where I was teaching my testing workshop. Well, what's interesting about that photo is that two weeks before that, I had gotten really frustrated with the tool that everybody uses or used at the time for testing React, and that was Enzyme. And so I was preparing this workshop or working on it. I had already delivered it a number of times, but I was working on it, improving it, as I always do [laughs] when I'm preparing.\n\nWILL: [laughs]\n\nKENT: I can never give the same workshop twice, I guess. And I was just so frustrated that Enzyme was so difficult to work with. And, like, I was going to prepare this document that said, \"Here are all the things you should never do with Enzyme. Like, Enzyme encourages you to do these things; you should not do these things. And let me explain why.\" And I just hated that I needed a document like that. \n\nAnd so, I tweeted, \"I'm seriously starting to think that I should make my own very small testing lib and drop Enzyme entirely. Most of Enzyme's features are not at all useful and many damaging to my test bases. I'd rather have something smaller that encourages better practices.\" And so, I tweeted that March 15th, 2018. I did that. I did exactly that. \n\nWhat I often do in my workshops is I try to build the abstraction that we're going to use so that you can use it better. So, I was, like, building Enzyme, and I realized the jump between what I had built, the little utilities that I had built as part of the workshop, from that to Enzyme was just a huge leap. And so, I thought, you know what? These utilities that I have built to teach Enzyme are actually really good. What if I just turned that into a testing utility? And that became Testing Library, which, fast forward to today, is the number one testing library for React. And it's recommended for testing React, and Vue, and Angular.\n\nThe ideas that are in Testing Library got adopted by Playwright. If you're writing tests for anything in the browser, you are very likely using something that was either originally developed by me or inspired by the work that I did. And it all came from that testing workshop that I was working on. So, with that, I had not only that testing workshop; I had a number of other workshops around testing. \n\nAnd so I approached Joel Hooks from Egghead.io. I say, \"Hey, I'm getting ready to record a bunch of Egghead courses. I've got, like, six or seven courses I want to do.\" And he'd seen my work before, you know, I was a very productive course creator. And he said, \"Hey, how about we, you know, we've been thinking about doing this special thing. How about we make a website just dedicated to your courses?\" And I said, \"That sounds great.\"\n\nI was a little bit apprehensive because I knew that putting stuff on Egghead meant that I had, like, a built-in audience and everything that was on Egghead, so this would be really the first time of me just branching out with video material on my own. Because, otherwise, if it wasn't Egghead, it was Frontend Masters, and there was the built-in audience there. But yeah, we decided to go for it. And we released it in, I think, November. \n\nAnd it was that first week...which is always when you make the most is during the launch period. But that launch week, I made more than my PayPal salary for the entire year. And so, that was when I realized, oh, yeah, okay, let's go full-time on this because I don't need two PayPal salaries. I just need one. And then I can spend more time with my family and stuff. And especially as the kids are getting older, they're staying up later, and I want to hang out with them instead of with my computer at night [laughter], and so...\n\nWILL: I love how you explain that because I came in around 2018, 2019. And I remember Enzyme, and it was so confusing, so hard to work with, especially for, you know, a junior dev that's just trying to figure it out. And I remember Testing JavaScript and then using that library, and it was just so much easier to, like, grab whatever you needed to grab. Those utils made the biggest difference, and still today, they make a huge difference. So yes, I just resonate with what you're saying. That's amazing. \n\nKENT: Aw, thank you so much. \n\nWILL: Yeah. You did Testing JavaScript. And then what was your next course that you did?\n\nKENT: I quit PayPal, go full-time teaching. That first year, I actually did an update to Testing JavaScript. There were a couple of changes in Testing Library and other things that I needed to update it for. And then I started working on Epic React. So, while I was doing all this testing stuff, I was also very into React, creating a bunch of workshops around that. I was invited to speak all over the world to talk about React. And I had a couple of workshops already for React. So, I was invited to give workshops at these conferences about React. \n\nAnd so, I thought, you know, let's do this again, and we'll do it with React this time. The other thing was, I'd never really planned on being the testing guy. It just kind of happened, and I actually didn't really like it either. I wanted to be more broad than just testing. So, that kind of motivated me to say, hey, let's do something with React to be a little bit more broad. \n\nYeah, so I worked on putting those workshops together and delivered them remotely. And then, yeah, COVID hit, and just really messed everything up [laughs] really bad. So, I had everything done on my end for Epic React by March of 2020, which is, like, immediately after COVID got started, in the U.S. at least. And so, yeah, then we actually didn't end up releasing Epic React until October that year, which, honestly [laughs], was a little bit frustrating for me because I was like, \"Hey, guys, I have recorded all the videos and everything. Can we get this released?\" But, like, that just was a really rough year for everybody. \n\nBut yeah, so Egghead got the site put together. I did a bunch of interviews and stuff. And then we launched in October of 2020. That was way bigger than Testing JavaScript because Testing JavaScript was still very informed by my experience as an Egghead instructor, which, typically, the Egghead courses are, like, a video where watch me do this thing, and then you'll learn something and go apply it to your own stuff. And that's kind of what Testing JavaScript was built as. \n\nBut as part of the update of Testing JavaScript in 2019, I added another workshop module called Testing Node Applications. And in that one, I decided, hey, typically, I would have a workshop version of my material and a course version. The workshop version had like instructions and exercises. And the course version was no instructions or anything. It was just, like, watch these videos. And it was just me doing the exercises. \n\nAnd with the update of Testing JavaScript, I added that Testing Node workshop, and I said, hey, what if we just, like, embrace the fact that these are exercises, and it's just, like, me recording the workshop? How I would deliver the workshop? And so, I tested that out, and that went really well. And so, I doubled down on that with Epic React. And I said, okay, now, this isn't just, like, watch these videos. This is a do the exercise and then watch me do the exercise. \n\nSo, Epic React was not only a lot more material but the format of the material was more geared for retention and true practice and learning. And so, Epic React ended up doing much better than Testing JavaScript, and even still, is still doing a remarkable job as far as course material is concerned. And, like, so many people are getting a lot of really great knowledge from Epic React. So yeah, very gratifying to have that. \n\nWILL: Once again, I've used Epic React. It's taught me so many...stretched me. And I do like the format, so yes, I totally agree with that, yeah. The next thing, Remix, correct?\n\nKENT: Yeah. So, how I got into Remix, around the same time we finished recording Epic React videos, I was doing some other stuff kind of to keep content going and stuff while we were waiting to launch Epic React. And around that same time, my friend Ryan Florence and Michael Jackson––they were doing the React training thing. And so, we were technically competitors. Like I said, Ryan and I kind of joined forces temporarily for his Workshop Me thing, but that didn't end up working out very well. And Michael really wanted Ryan back, and so they got back together. \n\nAnd their React training business went way better than it had before. They were hiring people and all sorts of stuff. And then, a training business that focuses on in-person training just doesn't do very well when COVID comes around. And so, they ended up having to lay off everybody and tried to figure out, okay, now what are we going to do? Our income has gone overnight. This is a bit of a simplification. But they decided to build software and get paid for it like one does. \n\nSo, they started building Remix. Ryan, actually, around that time, moved back to Utah. He and I would hang out sometimes, and he would share what he was working on with Michael. We would do, like, Zoom calls and stuff, too. I just got really excited about what they were working on. I could see the foundation was really solid, and I thought it was awesome. But I was still working on Epic React. \n\nI end up launching Epic React. He launches Remix the very next month as a developer preview thing. Yeah, it definitely...it looked a lot like current Remix in some ways but very, very different in lots of others. But I was super hooked on that. And so, I paid for the developer preview and started developing my website with it. And around the next year in August, I was getting close to finishing my website. \n\nMy website is, like, pretty legit. If you haven't gone to kentcdodds.com. Yet, it is cooler than you think it is. There's a lot that goes into that website. So, I had a team help me with the product planning and getting illustrations and had somebody help me implement the designs and all that stuff. It was a pretty big project. \n\nAnd then, by August of 2021, Ryan and I were talking, and I said, \"Hey, listen, I want to update Epic React to use Remix because I just think that is the best way to build React applications. But I have this little problem where Remix is a paid framework. That's just going to really reduce the number of people who are interested in learning what I have to teach. And on top of that, like, it just makes it difficult for people to test things out.\" And so, he, around that time, was like, \"Hey, just hold off a little bit. We've got some announcements.\"\n\nAnd so, I think it was September when they announced that they'd raised VC money and they were going to make Remix open source. That was when Ryan said, \"Hey, listen, Kent, I think that it's awesome you want to update Epic React to use Remix. But the problem is that Remix isn't even 1.0 yet. The community is super small. It needs a lot of help. If you release a course on Remix right now, then you're not going to get any attention because, like, nobody even knows what it is.\"\n\nSo, part of me is like, yeah, that's true. But also, the other part of me is like, how do people find out what it is [laughs] unless there's, like, material about it? But he was right. And he said, \"Listen, we've got a bunch of VC money. I've always wanted to work with you. How about we just hire you? And you can be a full-time teacher about Remix. But you don't have to charge anything. You just, like, make a bunch of stuff for free about Remix.\" I said, \"That sounds great. But, you know, to make that worth my while because I'm really happy with what I'm doing with this teaching thing, like, I'm going to need a lot of Remix.\" \n\nAnd so, Michael Jackson was like, \"How about we just make you a co-founder, and we give you a lot of Remix?\" And I said, \"Okay, let's do this.\" And so I jumped on board with them as a year-delayed co-founder. I guess that's pretty common. But, like, that felt kind of weird to me [laughs] to be called a co-founder. But yeah, so I joined up with them.\n\nI worked on documentation a little bit, mostly community building. I ran Remix Conf. Shopify was interested in what we were doing. And we were interested in what Shopify was doing because, at the time, they were working on Hydrogen, which was one of the early adopters of React Server Components. And, of course, everybody was interested in whether Remix was going to be adding support for server components. And Ryan put together a couple of experiments and found out that server components were nowhere near ready. And we could do better than server components could as of, you know, the time that he wrote the blog posts, like, two years ago. \n\nSo, Hydrogen was working with server components. And I put us in touch with the Hydrogen team—I think it was me—to, like, talk with the Hydrogen team about, like, \"Hey, how about instead of spending all this time building your own framework, you just build on top of Remix then you can, you know, make your Shopify starter projects just, like, a really thin layer on top of Remix and people will love it? And this is very important to us because we need to get users, especially really big and high profile users, so people will take us seriously.\"\n\nAnd so, we have this meeting. They fly a bunch of their people out to Salt Lake. They're asking us questions. We're asking them questions and saying, \"Hey, listen, this is why server components are just not going to work out for you.\" Well, apparently, they didn't listen to us. It felt like they were just like, \"No, we're highly invested in this. We've already sunk all this cost into this, but we're going to keep going.\" And they did end up shipping Hydrogen version 1 on top of server components, which I just thought was a big mistake. \n\nAnd it wasn't too long after that they came back and said, \"Hey, we're kind of interested in having you guys join Shopify.\" So, right after Remix Conf, I go up into Michael's room at the hotel with Ryan. And they say, \"Hey, listen, Kent, we're talking with Shopify about selling Remix and joining Shopify,\" and kind of bounced back and forth on whether we wanted to do it. All of us were just not sure. Because when I joined Remix, I was thinking, okay, we're going to build something, and it's going to be huge. This is going to be bigger than Vercel, like multibillion-dollar company. So, I really kind of struggled with thinking, hey, we're selling out. Like, we're just getting started here. \n\nSo, Ryan and I ended up at RenderATL in Atlanta at that conference. We were both speaking there. And Ryan didn't fill out the right form. So, he actually didn't have a hotel room [laughs], and so he ended up staying in my room. I intentionally always get a double bedroom just in case somebody needs to stay with me because somebody did that for me once, and I just...it was really nice of them. So, I've always done that since. And so, I said, \"Yeah, Ryan, you can stay with me.\" \n\nAnd so, we spent just a ton of time together. And this was all while we were trying to decide what to do with Shopify. And we had a lot of conversations about, like, what do we want for Remix in the future? And it was there that I realized, oh if I want to take this to, like, multi-billion dollar valuation, I've got to do things that I am not at all interested in doing. Like, you've got to build a business that is worth that much money and do business-related things. \n\nOn top of all of that, to get any money out of it...because I just had a percentage of the company, not actually any money. There was no stock. So, the only way you can get money out of a situation like that is if you have a liquidation event like an IPO, which sounds, like, awful—I [laughs] would hate to go through an IP0—or you have to be bought. And if you're worth $2 billion, or 3, or whatever, who can buy you? There's almost nobody who can buy you at that valuation. Do you really want to outprice anybody that could possibly buy you?\n\nAnd then, on top of that, to get there, that's, like, a decade worth of your life of working really superduper hard to get to that point, and there's no guarantee. Ryan would always say a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. He was saying Shopify is a bird in the hand, and we do not know what the future holds. And so, we were all finally convinced that, yeah, we want to sell, and so we decided, yeah, let's sell. \n\nAnd as the sale date grew closer, I was getting excited because I was like, oh, I can be back on the TC39 because Shopify is, like, I don't know if they're actually sending delegates to the TC39, but I'm sure that they would be interested if I ask them to, like, \"Hey, let's be involved in the evolution of JavaScript.\" And I know they're on the Web Working Group. Like, they're on a bunch of different committees and stuff. And I just thought it'd be really cool to get involved in the web platform again. And then, on top of that, I just thought, you know what? I'll just spend all my time teaching Shopify developers how to use Remix. That sounds like a lot of fun. \n\nAs things drew closer, I got more and more uneasy about that. And I thought, you know, I could probably do just as well for myself by going full-time teacher again. I've done this thing before. I just really like being a teacher and, like, having total control over everything that I do. And if I work at Shopify, they're going to tell me, \"Hey, you need to, like, do this, and that, and the other.\" And I don't know if I want to go back to that. \n\nAnd so, I decided, this is awesome. Super, super good job, folks. I think I've done everything for you that you need me to do. I'm going to bail out. And so, yeah, Shopify wasn't super jazzed about that. But the deal went through anyway. And that's how I ended my time at Shopify. \n\nWILL: I love it. It's lining up perfectly because you say you left Shopify to go back doing more teaching. And then you released another course; that's Epic Web, correct?\n\nKENT: Right. That was the reason I left Shopify or I didn't join up with Shopify is because I wanted to work on Epic Web. In this 2010s blog post, one of the last things that I mention...toward the bottom, there's a section, KCD EDU, which is basically, like, I wanted to help someone go from zero to my level as an engineer in a single place where I teach just all of the things that I can teach to get somebody there. And so I wanted to call it KCD EDU, but I guess you have to be an accredited university to get that domain or something. But that was the idea. \n\nErin Fox, back in 2020 she said, \"I'm expecting you to announce your online Kent C. Dodds engineering bootcamp.\" And I replied, \"I'm planning on doing this, no joke.\" So, I've been wanting to do this for a really long time. And so, leaving Remix was like, yeah, this is what I'm going to go do. I'm going to go build KCD EDU. \n\nAnd I was talking with Ryan at some point about, like, what I was planning on doing in the future. And something he said or something I said in that conversation made me realize, oh, shoot, I want to build Epic Web Dev. So, I've got Epic React. I don't want Epic Remix. I want people to, like, be web developers. Remix is just, like, an implementation detail. And so, I went and I was relieved to find that the domain was still available: epicweb.dev, and so I bought that. And so, I was always planning on, like, even while I was at Remix, eventually, I would leave Remix and go build Epic Web Dev. So, that's what I did. \n\nStarting in August, I decided, okay, how about this: I will build a legit real-world web application, and then I will use that to teach people how to build legit real-world web applications from start to finish. If it's included as, like, knowledge you would need to build this web app, then that's knowledge you need to be able to build a full-stack application. That was the idea.\n\nSo, I started live streaming in, like, August or September, and I would live stream almost everyday development of this web app. So, people can go and watch those on my YouTube channel. I would livestream for, like, sometimes six hours at a time with breaks every 45 minutes. So, I'd just put it on a break slide, go for a quick walk, or take a drink, whatever, and then I would come back. And I would just, like, so much development and live streaming for a long time. \n\nOnce I got, like, in a pretty good place with that, the app I was building was called Rocket Rental. It's like Airbnb for rocket ships. So, you could rent, like, your own rocket ship to other people to fly. So, it had to be, like, realistic enough that, like, you could relate it to whatever you were building but not realistic enough that people would actually think it was a real product [laughs]. \n\nI worked with Egghead again. They actually have a sister company now called Skill Recordings that's responsible for these types of products. And so, I was working with Skill Recordings on, like, they would get me designs. And then I would, like, work with other people to help implement some of those designs. And then, I started working on turning this stuff into workshops.\n\nAnd with Epic React, we have this workshop app that you run locally so that you can work in your own editor, in your own environment, and with your own editor plugins and all that stuff. I want you to practice the way that you're going to actually exercise that practice when you're done––when you're working at work. And so we have this workshop app with Epic React. Well, that was built with Create React app, very limited on what you could do. \n\nAnd so, I started working on a new workshop app that I just called KCD Shop, that was built with Remix. And so, now we've got a bunch of server-side stuff we can do. And this server side is running on your machine. And so, so much stuff that I can do with this thing. \n\nOne of the big challenges with Epic React was that the video you watch is on epicreact.dev, but the exercises you run are on localhost. And so, you have to keep those things in sync. You'd see, okay, I'm in exercise one on the videos. Let me go find exercise one in the app and then find the file exercise one. So, you've got, like, three different things you've got to keep in sync. \n\nAnd so, with the workshop app for Epic Web, I said, how about we make it so that we can embed the video into the app? And so, you just have localhost running, and you see the video right above the instructions for the exercise. And so, you watch the video that kind of introduces the problem that you're going to be doing, and then you read the instructions. And then we can also make it so that we have links you can click or buttons you can click in the app that will open your editor exactly where you're supposed to go. \n\nSo you don't have to keep anything in sync. You go to the app, and you watch the video. You read the instructions. You click this button. It opens your editor. And so, that's exactly what I did. And it's an amazing experience. It is phenomenal, not just for the workshop learners but for me, as a workshop developer, like, creating the workshop––it's just been phenomenal. Because, like, we also have this diff view where you can see the difference between your work in progress and the solution. So, if you get stuck, then it's very easy to see where you went wrong. \n\nIt also means that we can build even very large applications as part of our workshop and our exercise where there are dozens or hundreds of files. And you don't have to worry about finding them because it'll tell you exactly which ones you need to be working in, so all sorts of really, really cool things. So, this workshop app––actually, took a lot of time and effort to build. But now that it's done, like, people are going through it now, and they're just loving it. \n\nSo, I built the workshop app, I put the first workshop of Rocket Rental into this workshop app, and I delivered it. And I found out very quickly that a full application with all the bells and whistles you'd expect, like, tons of different routes and stuff, was just too much. Even with the workshop app, it was just really pretty difficult for people to gain enough context around what they were building to be effective. So, I was concerned about that. \n\nBut then, around the same time, I started realizing that I had a marketing problem. And that is that with Testing JavaScript, people know that they're customers because they're like, I'm a JavaScript developer, and I know how to test––boom. I'm a Testing JavaScript customer. With Epic React, I join this company; they're using React; I need to know React, boom. I'm a customer of Epic React. \n\nBut with something like Epic Web, it's just so broad that, like, yeah, I am a web developer. I just don't know if I'm a customer to Epic Web. Like, is Epic Web for only really advanced people, or is it only for really beginner people? Or is it only for people who are using this set of tools or... Like, it's just a very difficult thing to, like, identify with. And so I wanted to de-emphasize the fact that we used Remix because the fact is that you can walk away from this material and work in a Next.js app or a SvelteKit app and still use so much of the knowledge that you gained in that environment. \n\nSo, I didn't want to focus on the fact that we're using any particular set of tools because the tools themselves I select them, not only because I think that they are really great tools but also because the knowledge you gain from these tools is very transferable. And I'm going to teach it in a way that's very transferable. That was the plan. \n\nBut I still had this issue, like, I need people to be able to identify themselves as customers of this thing. So, what I decided to do through some, like, hints and inspiration from other people was how about I turn Rocket Rental into a much simpler app and make that a project starter? And while I was at Remix, actually, I directed the creation of this feature called Remix Stacks. It's basically the CLI allows you to create a Remix app based on a template. I said I can make a Remix Stack out of this, and I called it the Epic Stack. \n\nAnd so, just took all of the concepts that came from Rocket Rental; applied it to a much simpler app. It's just a note-taking app, but it has, like, all of the features that you would need to build in a typical application. So, it's got a database. It's got deployment, GitHub integration. So, you have GitHub Actions to run tests and stuff. It has the tests. It has authentication already implemented, and even two-factor auth, and third-party auth, and file upload, and, like, just tons and tons of stuff built in. And so, people can start a new project and ship that and have a lot of success, like, skip all the basic stuff. \n\nSo, I presented that at Remix Conf. I wasn't working at Remix anymore, but they asked me to run Remix Conf again, so I did. And I told them, \"If I'm running it this year, I'm going to select myself to speak.\" And I spoke and introduced the Epic Stack there. And then that was when I started to create the workshops based on the Epic Stack. \n\nAnd so, now it was no longer we're going to have workshops to build Rocket Rental; it was we're going to have workshops to build the Epic Stack, with the idea being that if you build the thing, you are able to use it better, like, still following the same pattern I did with Testing JavaScript where we build a framework first. Like, before you start using Jest, we're building Jest and same with Testing Library. We do the same thing with React. Before we bring in React, I teach you how to create DOM nodes yourself and render those to the page and all of that. \n\nAnd so, here with Epic Web, I'm going to teach you how to build the framework that you can use to build applications. So, that is what Epic Web is, it's effectively we're building the Epic Stack. In the process, you learn all about really basic things, like, how do you get styles onto the page all the way to really complex things like, how do you validate a user's email? Or how do you implement two-factor auth? Or how do you create a test database? So, you don't have to mock out the database, but you can still run your test in isolation. \n\nAround this time was when my wife and I were trying to become pregnant. And we got the news that we were expecting, and we were super excited. And so, I'm thinking, okay, I've got to ship this thing before the baby comes. Because who knows what happens after this baby comes? So, I am talking with Skill Recordings. I'm saying, \"We've got to get this done by October.\" I think it was May. \n\nAnd so, I was thinking like, okay, I've probably got, like, maybe eight days worth of workshops here. And so, kind of outlined all of the workshops. Like, I know what needs to be included. I know what the end looks like because I've got the Epic Stack. The end is the Epic Stack. The beginning is, like, a brand new create Remix app creation right there. So, I know what the start and the end looks like. I kind of can figure out how much time I need to teach all of that. And I said, \"Let's do eight days.\" \n\nAnd so, we got that scheduled and started selling tickets. And we sold out 30 tickets in just a couple of days, and that's what we originally planned for. I'm like, well, gosh, I can handle 80 people in a workshop. I've done that before, but that's about as far as I go. I don't really like going that much. In fact, online, especially, I only like to go up to, like, 40. But we said, \"Hey, let's knock this out of the park.\" So, we doubled it, and we sold another 30 seats. And so, it was sold out before even the early bird sale was over. So, that was pretty encouraging. \n\nThe problem was that I hadn't actually developed this material. I'd already given one workshop about testing with Rocket Rental, and I'd given one workshop about the fundamentals with Rocket Rental. But I hadn't done anything of the authentication or, the forms, or data modeling. Also, like, Epic Notes app is different from Rocket Rental. So, I got to rebuild those workshops.\n\nLike, the first workshop was going to start in, like, two weeks, maybe three weeks. And so, I'm working on these workshops. And I'm like, I've finished the first workshop, which was going to be a two-day workshop, and so I get that done. And so, that next week, I'm getting close to finished on the forms workshop, and then I start the workshops. \n\nAnd that was when I started to realize, oh, shoot, I am in huge trouble because I have to not only deliver two workshops a week, so that's two days a week that I'm not able to work on the workshops, really. And then also develop the material as I go, which I don't normally do this at all because I just don't like stressing myself out so much. But, like, I'd had this timeline put together, and I'm like, I need to ship this by October. \n\nFor about five weeks, I worked 80 to 100 hours a week, maybe more, in a row to get those workshops created [laughs]. And I do not recommend this, and I will never do it again. I can tell you this now. I didn't tell anybody at the time because I was worried that people would think, well, geez, is that the type of product you create, like, you're just rushing through this stuff? \n\nBut I can tell you this safely now because the results speak for themselves. Like, these people loved this stuff. They ate it up. It was so good. I won't do this again. It's not something that I typically do. But it worked. And, like, I put in a crazy amount of work to make this work. People loved it. And yeah, I'm really, really happy with that.\n\nThe next step, though, so it was eight days' worth of workshops in four weeks. And I realized, as I almost always realize when I'm presenting workshops, that, like, oh my gosh, I have way more material than I have time for. So, by the end of it, when I was all done, I'm pretty sure we've got around 16 days' worth of workshop material, so twice as much as I thought, which is; honestly, I shouldn't be surprised because this is always how it works. \n\nSo, I've got 16 days worth of workshops to record starting in August that needed to get all recorded six weeks before the launch date, which was my birthday. So, I have until, like, the first part of September to get all this stuff recorded. That is a lot to get recorded, but I managed to do that. So, in about four weeks, I recorded 450 videos. Like, anybody go through this material, and you'll be blown away that I was able to do this. So, I'm patting myself on the back, I know. I probably sound super cocky, but I nailed it. And it is so good. \n\nI can credit a lot of my ability to record and get those videos produced, first, to the fact that I wasn't editing the videos. I would export the videos, and an editor would take care of editing it for me. And then, secondly, that I've done this for so long. I've just been creating workshops for a long time. I'm just really practiced at teaching while I'm typing and talking and everything. And then, also, just the level of preparation that I put into this workshop material. It was just a very well-oiled machine by this point. So, it ended up working out super-duper well.\n\nSo, I get the videos done. I'm recording a bunch of expert interviews with 25 people during the month of September. Then we launched on my birthday, October 18th. And it went superduper well.\n\nWILL: Wow. That's a lot of video recording and a lot of stuff you have to do. I feel like that's most parents when they're trying to meet a deadline for a kid that you don't know when they're coming. It's like, oh, I got to do this. I got to do that before the baby comes. So, you did it. You were successful with that [laughter]. \n\nKENT: Yeah, thank you. \n\nWILL: Wow, who is this course for?\n\nKENT: The course is for anybody who wants to learn how to build web applications the way I do. I like to focus my building of web applications on the primitives of the web platform as much as possible while acknowledging the practicality of using a framework. \n\nIf you want to be able to ship really awesome user experiences on the web platform, regardless of whether you're using the same tools I am, like, if you're not using Prisma, if you're not using Tailwind, if you're not using Remix, you're still going to walk away from this with a lot of really, really practical material. Because I don't really focus on the tools as much as I do on the patterns and the practical application of security practices and various things of that nature. So, anybody who wants to be really good at the web will benefit a lot from Epic Web. \n\nWILL: Okay. And I'll put this in the show notes, but they can find it at epicweb.dev? \n\nKENT: Mm-hmm.\n\nWILL: Perfect. Okay. Is there anything else that you want to talk about around epicweb.dev?\n\nKENT: I'll just reiterate that, like, your learning experience on epicweb.dev will be different from anything you've ever seen before. It will be a little bit similar to Epic React if you've done that before. But even still, the new workshop app is unreal, and people are loving it. \n\nOne feature that I really love about it is we try to make it so that you don't feel like you're learning alone because we learn better when we're learning together, and we feel like we're not alone. So, we have a presence feature on Epic Web. So, when you're working through the workshops, you can see all the other people that are currently working on the workshops as well. Of course, you can opt out of this if you don't want your face on there, but, like, it's just, like, a little pile of faces of people who are working on it. And it says where they're working right now. And it's just really, really cool to be able to have that camaraderie. \n\nSo, it's really geared toward retention. So, this is nothing like a Udemy course that is, like, a 45-hour thing that you just sit and watch. This is very hands-on. You will remember this stuff, and you will become a better developer when you're done.\n\nWILL: Wow, wow. I love that I have not gotten the course, but I'm definitely looking into it. You've talked me into it. I'm going to go and try to try it out. So yes.\n\nKENT: Cool. \n\nWILL: Well, I want to close out on a couple of things that I saw. And it was just interesting hearing your story. Like, early on, you were talking about your purpose and kind of the things that you love. One thing that I picked up on is, like, you're saying that you love audio and video programming and teaching. It's amazing that that's essentially what you're doing now. \n\nKENT: [laughs]\n\nWILL: Like, that's what you're in right now. You're in teaching with audio and video, and you're teaching programming.\n\nKENT: Hmm. Yeah, it is kind of funny how it, like, comes full circle.\n\nWILL: Yeah, so I really love that. And then I have this thing, whenever I think something, especially positive, I try to tell people. I hate to not share what I'm thinking, especially when it's positive because I feel like if it's negative, we just do it so freely, but we never do the positive. \n\nSo, I think, for you, I want to just tell you you had a couple of things you were saying, like your purpose when writing software is the people. You want to teach people how to write awesome software to make the world a better place, and I just want you to know I know, for me, you've done that. You've helped me so much on my journey of coding and development. And I just really appreciate you and what you've done for the space. And I just want to say thank you.\n\nKENT: Aw, Will, thank you. That does mean a lot to me. So, I really appreciate you saying that. \n\nWILL: Yeah, awesome. Well, it was a great conversation. I loved learning more about you and just everything you shared. So, thank you for being a part of the podcast. \n\nKENT: Thank you. \n\nWILL: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry. \n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.\n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.\n\nAD:\n\nDid you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.\n\nMore info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.Special Guest: Kent C. Dodds.Sponsored By:thoughtbot: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? \r\n\r\nWe know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it’s easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn’t looking.\r\n\r\nBy delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer.\r\n\r\nSave time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops","content_html":"Kent C. Dodds, a JavaScript engineer and teacher known for Epic Web Dev and the Remix web framework, reflects on his journey in tech, including his tenure at PayPal and his transition to full-time teaching.
\n\nKent's passion for teaching is a constant theme throughout. He transitioned from corporate roles to full-time education, capitalizing on his ability to explain complex concepts in an accessible manner. This transition was marked by the creation of successful online courses like "Testing JavaScript and Epic React," which have significantly influenced the web development community.
\n\nAn interesting aspect of Kent's career is his involvement with Remix, including his decision to leave Shopify (which acquired Remix) to return to teaching, which led to the development of his latest project, Epic Web Dev, an extensive and innovative web development course.
\n\nThis interview provides a comprehensive view of Kent C. Dodds's life and career, showcasing his professional achievements in web development and teaching, his personal life as a family man, and his unique upbringing in a large family.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. And with me today is Kent C. Dodds. Kent is a JavaScript engineer and teacher. He has recently released a massive workshop called epicweb.dev. And he is the father of four kids. Kent, thank you for joining me.
\n\nKENT: Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be here.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. And it's an honor for me to have you. I am a huge fan. I think you're the one that taught me how to write tests and the importance of it. So, I'm excited to talk to you and just pick your brain and learn more about you.
\n\nKENT: Oh, thank you.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. So, I just want to start off just: who is Kent? What do you like to do? Tell us about your family, your hobbies, and things like that.
\n\nKENT: Yeah, sure. So, you mentioned I'm the father of four kids. That is true. We are actually expecting our fifth child any day now. So, we are really excited to have our growing family. And when I'm not developing software or material for people to learn how to develop software, I'm spending time with my family. I do have some other hobbies and things, but I try to share those with my family as much as I can.
\n\nSo, it's starting to snow around here in Utah. And so, the mountains are starting to get white, and I look forward to going up there with my family to go skiing and snowboarding this season. During the summertime, I spend a lot of time on my one-wheel just riding around town and bring my kids with me when I can to ride bikes and stuff, too. So, that's sort of the personal side of my life.
\n\nAnd then, professionally, I have been in this industry developing for the web professionally for over a decade. Yeah, web development has just worked out super well for me. I kind of focused in on JavaScript primarily. And when I graduated with a master's degree in Information Systems at Brigham Young University, I started working in the industry.
\n\nI bounced around to a couple of different companies, most of them you don't know, but you'd probably be familiar with PayPal. I was there for a couple of years and then decided to go full-time on teaching, which I had been doing as, like, a part-time thing, or, like, on the side all those years. And yeah, when teaching was able to sustain my family's needs, then I just switched full-time. So, that was a couple of years ago that I did that. I think like, 2018 is when I did that.
\n\nI took a 10-month break to help Remix get off the ground, the Remix web framework. They got acquired by Shopify. And so, I went back to full-time teaching, not that I don't like Shopify, but I felt like my work was done, and I could go back to teaching. So, that's what I'm doing now, full-time teacher.
\n\nWILL: Wow. Yes, I definitely have questions around that.
\n\nKENT: [laughs] Okay.
\n\nWILL: So many. But I want to start back...you were saying you have four kids. What are their ages?
\n\nKENT: Yeah, my oldest is 11, youngest right now is 6, and then we'll have our fifth one. So, all four of the kids are pretty close in age. And then my wife and I thought we were done. And then last December, we kind of decided, you know what? I don't think we're done. I kind of think we want to do another. So, here we go. We've got a larger gap between my youngest and the next child than we have between my oldest and the youngest child.
\n\nWILL: [chuckles]
\n\nKENT: So, we're, like, starting a new family, or [laughs] something.
\n\nWILL: Yeah [laughs]. I just want to congratulate you on your fifth child. That's amazing.
\n\nKENT: Thank you.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. How are you feeling about that gap?
\n\nKENT: Yeah, we were pretty intentional about having our kids close together because when you do that, they have built-in friends that are always around. And as they grow older, you can do the same sorts of things with them. So, like, earlier this year, we went to Disneyland, and they all had a great time. They're all at the good age for that. And so, they actually will remember things and everything.
\n\nYeah, we were pretty certain that four is a good number for us and everything. But yeah, we just started getting this nagging feeling we wanted another one. So, like, the fact that there's a big gap was definitely not in the plan. But I know a lot of people have big gaps in their families, and it's just fine. So, we're going to be okay; just it's going to change the dynamic and change some plans for us. But we're just super excited to have this next one.
\n\nWILL: I totally understand what you mean by having them close together. So, I have three little ones, and my oldest and my youngest share the same exact birthday, so they're exactly three years apart.
\n\nKENT: Oh, wow. Yeah, that's actually...that's fun. My current youngest and his next oldest brother are exactly two years apart. They share the same birthday, too [laughs].
\n\nWILL: Wow. You're the first one I've heard that their kids share a birthday.
\n\nKENT: Yeah, I've got a sister who shares a birthday with her son. And I think we've got a couple of birthdays that are shared, but I also have 11 brothers and sisters [laughs]. And so, I have got a big family, lots of opportunity for shared birthdays in my family.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I was actually going to ask you about that. How was it? I think you're the 11th. So, you're the youngest of 11?
\n\nKENT: I'm the second youngest. So, there are 12 of us total. I'm number 11.
\n\nWILL: Okay, how was that growing up with that many siblings?
\n\nKENT: I loved it. Being one of the youngest I didn't really...my experience was very different from my older siblings. Where my older siblings probably ended up doing a fair bit of babysitting and helping around the house in that way, I was the one being babysat. And so, like, by the time I got to be, like, a preteen, or whatever, lots of my siblings had already moved out. I was already an uncle by the time I was six.
\n\nI vaguely remember all 12 of us being together, but most of my growing up was just every other year; I'd have another sibling move out of the house, which was kind of sad. But they'd always come back and visit. And now I just have an awesome relationship with every one of my family members. And I have something, like, 55 nieces and nephews or more. Yeah, getting all of us together every couple of years for reunions is really a special experience. It's a lot of fun.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. My mom, she had 12 brothers and sisters.
\n\nKENT: Whoa.
\n\nWILL: And I honestly miss it because we used to get together all the time. I used to live a lot closer. Most of them are in Louisiana or around that area, and now I'm in South Florida, so I don't get to see them as often. But yeah, I used to love getting together. I had so many cousins, and we got in so much trouble...and it was --
\n\nKENT: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: We loved it [laughs].
\n\nKENT: Yeah, that's wonderful. I love that.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. Well, I want to start here, like, how did you get your start? Because I know...I was doing some research, and I saw that, at one point, you were an AV tech. You were a computer technician. You even did maintenance. Like, what was the early start of your career like, and how did you get into web dev?
\n\nKENT: I've always been very interested in computers, my interest was largely video games. So, when I was younger, I had a friend who was a computer programmer or, like, would program stuff. We had visions of...I don't know if you're familiar with RuneScape, but it's this game that he used to play, and I would play a little bit. It was just a massive online multiplayer game. And so, we had visions of building one of those and having it just running in the background, making us money, as if that's how that works [laughter]. But he tried to teach me programming, and I just could not get it at all.
\n\nAnd so I realized at some point that playing video games all the time wasn't the most productive use of my time on computers, and if I wanted my parents to allow me to be on computers, I needed to demonstrate that I could be productive in learning, and making things, and stuff. So, I started blogging and making videos and just, like, music videos.
\n\nMy friend, who was the programmer, he was into anime, or anime, as people incorrectly pronounce it. And [laughs] there was this website called amv.com or .org or something. It's Anime Music Videos. And so, we would watch these music videos. And I'd say, "I want to make a music video with Naruto." And so, I would make a bunch of music videos from the Naruto videos I downloaded, and that was a lot of fun. I also ran around with a camera to do that.
\n\nAnd then, with the blog, I wrote a blog about Google and the stuff that Google was, like, doing because I just thought it was a fascinating company. I always wanted to work at Google. In the process of, like, writing the blog, I got exposed to CSS and HTML, but I really didn't do a whole lot of programming. I also did a little bit of Google Docs. Spreadsheets had some JavaScript macros-type things that you could do. So, I did a little bit of that, but I never really got too far into programming.
\n\nThen I go to college, I'm thinking, you know what? I think I want to be a video editor. I really enjoy that. And so, my brother, who at the time was working at Micron, he did quality assurance on the memory they were making. So, he would build test automation, software and hardware for testing the memory they build. And so, he recommended that I go into electrical engineering. Because what he would say is, "If you understand computers at that foundational level, you can do anything with computers." And I'd say, "Well, I like computers. And if I go into video editing, I'm going to need to understand computers, too. So yeah, sure, let's let's do that."
\n\nI was also kind of interested in 3D animation and stuff like that, too. Like, I wasn't very good at it, but I was kind of interested in that, too. So, I thought, like, having a really good foundation on computers would be a good thing for me. Well, I was only at school for a semester when I took a break to go on a mission for my church [inaudible 09:42] mission. And when I got back and started getting back into things, I took a math refresher course. That was, like, a half a credit. It wasn't really a big thing, but I did terrible in it. I did so bad.
\n\nAnd it was about that time that I realized, you know what? I've been thinking my whole life that I'm good at math. And just thinking back, I have no idea why or any justification for why I thought I was good at math because in high school, I always struggled with it. I spent so much time with it. And in fact, my senior year, I somehow ended up with a free period of nothing else to do. I don't know how this happened. But, I used that free period to go to an extra edition of my calculus class. So, I was going to twice as much calculus working, like, crazy hard and thinking that I was good at this, and I superduper was not [laughter].
\n\nAnd so, after getting back from my mission and taking that refresher course, I was like, you know what? Math is a really important part of engineering, and I'm not good at it at all, obviously. And so, I've got to pivot to something else. Well, before my mission, as part of the engineering major, you needed to take some programming classes. So, there was a Java programming class that I took and a computer systems class that included a lot of programming.
\n\nThe computer systems was very low level, so we were doing zeros and ones. And I wrote a program in zeros and ones. All that it did was it would take input from the keyboard, and then spit that back out to you as output. That was what it did. But still, you know, many lines of zeros and ones and just, like, still, I can't believe I did that [laughter]. And then we upgraded from that to Assembly, and what a godsend that was [laughs], how wonderful Assembly was after working in machine code. But then we upgraded from that to C, and that's as far as that class went. And then, yeah, my Java class, we did a bunch of stuff.
\n\nAnd I just remember thinking or really struggling to find any practicality to what we were doing. Like, in the Java class, we were implementing the link to list data structure. And I was like, I do not care about this. This does not make any sense. Why should I care? We were doing these transistor diagrams in the computer systems class. And why do I care about that? I do not care about this at all. Like, this is not an interesting thing for me. So, I was convinced computer programming was definitely not what I wanted to do.
\n\nSo, when I'm switching from electrical engineering, I'm thinking, well, what do I do? And my dad convinced me to try accounting. That was his profession. He was a certified public accountant. And so, I said, "Okay, I'll try that." I liked the first class, and so I switched my major to go into the business school for accounting. I needed to take the next accounting class, and I hated that so much. It was just dull and boring. And I'm so glad that I got out of that because [laughs] I can't imagine doing anything like that.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nKENT: But as part of switching over to business school, I discovered information systems. What's really cool about that is that we were doing Excel spreadsheets and building web pages. But it was all, like, with a practical application of business and, like, solving business problems. And then, I was like, oh, okay, so I can do stuff with computers in a practical setting, and that's what got me really interested. So, I switched, finally, to information systems–made it into that program. And I was still not convinced I wanted to do programming. I just wanted to work with computers.
\n\nWhat ended up happening is the same time I got into the information systems program, I got married to my wife, and then I got this part-time job at a company called the More Good Foundation. It's a non-profit organization. And one of my jobs was to rip DVDs and upload those videos to YouTube, and then also download videos from one site and upload those to YouTube as well. And so, I was doing a lot of stuff with YouTube and video stuff.
\n\nAnd as part of my information systems class, I was taking another Java class. At that same time, I was like, you know, what I'm doing at work is super boring. Like, can you imagine your job is to put in a [inaudible 13:45] and then click a couple of buttons? And, like, it was so boring and error-prone, too. Like, okay, now I've got to type this out and, you know, I got to make sure it's the same, try and copy-paste as much as I can. And it was not fun.
\n\nAnd so, I thought, well, I'm pretty sure there are pieces of this that I could automate. And so, with the knowledge that I was getting in my information systems programming class, that was another Java class, I decided to write a program that automated a bunch of my stuff. And so, I asked my boss, like, "Can I automate this with writing software?" And I'm so glad that they said I could.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nKENT: Because by the end of it, I had built software that allowed me to do way more than I ever could have before. I ended up uploading thousands of videos to their YouTube channels, which would have taken years to do. And they ended up actually being so happy with me. They had me present to the board of directors when they were asking for more money [laughs] and stuff. And it was really awesome. But still, I was not interested in being a programmer. Programming, to me, was just a means to an end.
\n\nWILL: Oh, wow.
\n\nKENT: Yeah, I guess there was just something in me that was like, I am not a programmer. So, anyway, further into the program of information systems, I interned as a business intelligence engineer over that next summer, and I ended up staying on there. And while I was supposed to be a business intelligence engineer, I did learn a lot about SQL, and star schema, and denormalized databases to optimize for read speed and everything. I learned a lot about that. But I just kept finding myself in positions where I would use my programming experience to automate things that were problematic for us in the business realm. And this was all still Java.
\n\nIt was there that I finally realized, you know what? I think I actually do want to be a programmer. I actually really do enjoy this. And I like that it's practical, and it makes sense for me, so…
\n\nWILL: What year was that?
\n\nKENT: That would have been 2012. Then I got a new job where my job was actually to be a programmer at a company called Domo, where they do business intelligence, actually. So, it got my foot in the door a little bit since I was a business intelligence engineer already. I got hired on, actually, as a QA engineer doing automated testing, but I never really got into that. And they shifted me over pretty quick into helping with the web app.
\n\nAnd that is when I discovered JavaScript, and the whole, like, everything flooded out from there. I was like, wow, I thought I liked programming, but I had no idea how fun it could be. Because I felt like the chains had been broken. I no longer have to write Java. I can write JavaScript, and this was just so much better.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nKENT: And so, yeah, I was there for a year and a half before I finally graduated. And I took a little break to work at USAA for a summer internship. And when I came back, I had another year and then converted to full-time. And so, yeah, there's my more detail than you were probably looking for, story of how I got into programming [laughs].
\n\nWILL: No, I actually love it because like I said, I've used your software, your teachings, all that. And it's amazing to hear the story of how you got there. Because I feel like a lot of times, we just see the end result, but we don't know the struggle that you went through of even trying to find your way through what your purpose was, what you're trying to do. Because, at one point, you said you were trying to do accounting, then you were trying to do something else. So, it's amazing to see, like, when it clicked for you when you got into JavaScript, so that's amazing.
\n\nKENT: Yeah, it is kind of funny to think, like, some people have the story of, like, I knew I wanted to be a programmer from the very beginning, and it's just kind of funny for me to think back and, like, I was pretty certain I didn't want to be a programmer.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nKENT: Like, not only did I, like, lots of people will say, "I never really thought about it, and then I saw it, and it was great." But I had thought about it. And I saw it, and I thought it was awful [laughter]. And so, yeah, I'm really glad that it worked out the way it did, though, because programming has just been a really fun thing. Like, I feel so blessed to be doing something that I actually enjoy doing.
\n\nLike so many of our ancestors, they would go to work because they cared about their family and they just wanted to feed their family. I'm so grateful to them for doing that. I am so lucky that I get to go to work to take care of my family, but also, I just love doing it.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I feel the same way, so yeah, totally agree. After you found out about JavaScript, when did you figure out that you want to teach JavaScript? What was that transition like?
\n\nKENT: I've been teaching for my whole life. It's ingrained in my religion. Even as a kid, you know, I'd prepare a talk, a five-minute talk, and stand up in front of 30 of my peers. And even when you're an early teenager, you get into speaking in front of the entire congregation. It took a while before I got good enough at something, enough hubris to think that people would care about what I have to say --
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nKENT: Outside of my religion where, like, they're sitting there, and I've been asked to speak, and so they're going to listen to me. And so, when I started getting pretty good at programming, I decided, hey, I want to teach this stuff that I'm learning. And so, when I was still at school and working at Domo, the business intelligence company, one of our co-workers, Dave Geddes, he put together a workshop to teach AngularJS because we were migrating from Backbone to Angular. And I asked him if I could use his workshop material to teach my classmates.
\n\nThis was, like, soon after ng-conf, the first ng-conf, which my co-workers at Domo actually put on. So, I wasn't involved in the organization, but I was very much present when it was being organized. I attended there and developed a relationship with Firebase with the people there. I was actually...they had a developer evangelist program, which they called Torchbearers or something. And actually, that was my idea to call them Torchbearers. I think they wanted to call us torches, and I'm like, that just doesn't make sense.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nKENT: I developed a relationship with them. And I asked them, "Hey, I want to teach my classmates AngularJS. Would you be interested in sponsoring some pizza and stuff?" And they said, "Yeah, we'll send you stickers, and hot sauce, and [laughs] a bunch of..." Like, they sent us, like, headphones [laughs] and stuff. So, I was like, sweet. I taught my classmates AngularJS in a workshop, brought a bunch of pizza, and it was, you know, just an extracurricular thing.
\n\nAnd actually, the recording is still on my YouTube channel, so if you want to go look at one of my early YouTube videos. I was very into publishing video online. So, if you are diligent, you'll be able to find some of my very early [laughter] videos from my teenage years.
\n\nBut anyway, so, yes, I've been teaching since the very beginning. As soon as I graduated from college, I started speaking at meetups. I'd never been to a meetup before, and I just saw, oh, they want a speaker. I can talk about something.
\n\nWILL: Wow.
\n\nKENT: And not realizing that, like, meetups are literally always looking for speakers. This wasn't some special occasion.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nKENT: And one of the meetups I spoke at was recorded and put on YouTube. And the guy who started Egghead io, John Lindquist, he is local here in Utah. And he saw that I spoke at that meetup, but he wasn't able to attend. So, he watched the recording, and he thought it was pretty good. He thought I would do a good job turning that into a video course. And that first video course paid my mortgage.
\n\nWILL: Wow.
\n\nKENT: And I was blown away. This thing that I had been doing just kind of for fun speaking at meetups, and I realized, oh, I can actually, like, make some legit good money out of this. From there, I just started making more courses on the side after I put the kids to bed. My wife is like, "Hey, I love you, but I want you to stay away for now because I've just been with these tiny babies all day.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nKENT: And I just need some alone time."
\n\nWILL: Yes.
\n\nKENT: And so, I was like, okay.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nKENT: I'll just go and work on some courses. And so, I spent a lot of time for the next couple of years doing course material on the side. I reached out to Frontend Masters and just told them, "Hey, I've been doing courses for Egghead." I actually met Marc Grabanski at a conference a couple of years before. And so, we established a little bit of relationship. And I just said, "Hey, I want to come and teach there." So, I taught at Frontend Masters. I started putting on my own workshops at conferences.
\n\nIn fact, just a few months after graduating, I got accepted to speak at a conference. And only after I was accepted did I realize it was in Sweden [laughter]. I didn't think to look where in the world this conference was. So, that was my first international trip, actually, and I ended up speaking there. I gave, actually, two talks. One of them was a three-hour talk.
\n\nWILL: Whoa.
\n\nKENT: Which was, yeah, that was wild.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nKENT: And then, yeah, I gave a two-day workshop for them. And then, I flew straight from there to Amsterdam to give another talk and also do a live in-person podcast, which I'd been running called ngAir, an Angular podcast. It just kept on building from there until finally, I created testingjavascript.com. And that was when I realized, oh, okay, so this isn't just a thing I can use to pay my mortgage, and that's nice. This is, like, a thing I can do full-time. Because I made more with Testing JavaScript than I made from my PayPal salary.
\n\nWILL: Oh wow.
\n\nKENT: I was like, oh, I don't need both of these things. I would rather work half as much one full-time job; that's what I want, one full-time job and make enough to take care of my family. And I prefer teaching. So, that's when I left PayPal was when I released Testing JavaScript.
\n\nWILL: Wow. So, for me, I think so many times the imposter syndrome comes up whenever I want to teach or do things at the level you're saying you're doing. Because I love teaching. I love mentoring. I remember when I came into development, it was hard. I had to find the right person to help me mentor. So now, I almost made a vow to myself that if someone wants to learn and they're willing to put in the energy, I'm going to sit down however long it takes to help them because I remember how hard it was for me whenever I was doing it.
\n\nSo, you said in 2014, you were only a couple years doing development. How did you overcome impostor syndrome to stand in front of people, teach, go around the world, and give talks and podcasts? Like, how did you do that portion?
\n\nKENT: Part of it is a certain level of hubris like I said. Like, you just have to be willing to believe that somebody's going to care. You know, the other part of it is, it's a secret to getting really, really good at something. They sometimes will say, like, those who can't do teach. That's total baloney because it requires a lot of being able to do to get you in a position where you can teach effectively. But the process of teaching makes you better at the process of doing as well. It's how you solidify your experience as a whatever. So, if you're a cook, you're really good at that; you will get better by teaching other people how to cook.
\n\nThere's an element of selfishness in what I do. I just want to get really, really good at this, and so I'm going to teach people so that I can. So yeah, I think there's got to be also, like, a little bit of thick skin, too, because people are going to maybe not like what you have to share or think that you're posing or whatever. Learn how to let that slide off you a little bit.
\n\nBut another thing is, like, as far as that's concerned, just being really honest about what your skill set is. So, if somebody asks me a question about GraphQL, I'm going to tell them, "Well, I did use GraphQL at PayPal, but I was pretty limited. And so, I don't have a lot of experience with that," and then I'll answer their question. And so, like, communicating your limitations of knowledge effectively and being okay being judged by people because they're going to judge you. It just is the way it is. So, you just have to learn how to cope well with that.
\n\nThere are definitely some times where I felt like I was in over my head on some subjects or I was involved in a conversation I had no business being there. I actually felt that a lot when I was sent as PayPal's delegate to the TC39 meetings. Wow, what am I doing here? I've only been in the industry for, like, two or three years at [laughter] that point. It takes a certain level of confidence in your own abilities. But also, like, being realistic about your inexperience as well, I think, is important too.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I know that you had a lot of success, and I want to cover that next. But were there any failures when you were doing those teaching moments?
\n\nKENT: Years ago, Babel was still a new thing that everybody was using to compile their JavaScript with new syntax features down to JavaScript that the browser could run. There was ES Modules that was introduced, and lots of us were doing global window object stuff. And then we moved to, like, defining your dependencies with r.js or RequireJS. And then, there was CommonJS, and Universal Module Definition, and that sort of thing. So, ECMAScript modules were very exciting. Like, people were really interested in that. And so, Babel added support to it. It would compile from the module syntax down to whatever you wanted: CommonJS or...well, I'm pretty sure it could compile to RequireJS, but I compiled it to CommonJS.
\n\nAnd so, there was a...yeah, I would say it's a bug in Babel at that time, where it would allow you to write your ES modules in a way that was not actually spec-compliant. It was incorrect. So, I would say export default some object, and then in another module, I would say import. And then, I'd select properties off of the object that I exported, that default I exported. That was allowed by Babel, but it is superduper, not how ECMAScript modules work.
\n\nWell, the problem is that I taught, like, a ton of people how to use ECMAScript modules this way. And when I realized that I was mistaken, it was just, like, a knife to the heart because I was, like, I taught so many people this wrong thing. And so, I wrote a blog post about it. I gave a big, long talk titled “More Than You Want to Know About ECMAScript Modules,” where I talk about that with many other things as well. And so, yeah, just trying to do my part to make up for the mistake that I made. So yes, I definitely have had mistakes like that.
\n\nThere's also, like, the aspect that technology moves at a rapid pace. And so, I have old things that I would show people how to do, which they still work just as well as they worked back then. But I wouldn't recommend doing it that way because we have better ways now. For some people, the old way to do it is the only way they can do it based on the constraints they have and the tools that they're using and stuff. And so, it's not, like, it's not valuable at all. But it is a struggle to make sure that people understand that, like, this is the way that you do it if you have to do it this way, but, like, we've got better ways.
\n\nWILL: I'm glad you shared that because it helps. And I love how you say it: when I make a mistake, I own up to it and let everyone know, "Hey, I made a mistake. Let's correct it and move on." So, I really like that.
\n\nKENT: Yeah, 100%.
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\n\nWILL: I want to go back to what you were saying. When you left PayPal, you released Testing JavaScript. How did you come up with the idea to write a Testing JavaScript course? And, two, how long did it take to take off and be successful?
\n\nKENT: That was a pretty special thing, honestly. In 2018, I had put together a bunch of workshops related to testing. There was this conference called Assert(js) that invited me to come, taught them. In the year prior, I went to Midwest JS and taught how to test React. I had this material about testing. I'd gotten into testing just because of open-source stuff. I didn't want to have to manually go through all my stuff again every time I wanted to check for breakages and stuff, so that got me into testing. And whatever I'm into is what I'm going to teach. So, I started teaching that testing.
\n\nAnd then my friend, Ryan Florence, put together...he separated from Michael Jackson with React Training, and built his own thing called Workshop.me. He asked me to join up with him. And he would, like, put together these workshops for me, and I would just...my job was just to show up and teach. And so, I did that. I have a picture, actually, in this blog post, The 2010s Decade in Review, of me in front of 60 people at a two-day workshop at Trulia in San Francisco.
\n\nWILL: Oh, wow.
\n\nKENT: And this is where I was teaching my testing workshop. Well, what's interesting about that photo is that two weeks before that, I had gotten really frustrated with the tool that everybody uses or used at the time for testing React, and that was Enzyme. And so I was preparing this workshop or working on it. I had already delivered it a number of times, but I was working on it, improving it, as I always do [laughs] when I'm preparing.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nKENT: I can never give the same workshop twice, I guess. And I was just so frustrated that Enzyme was so difficult to work with. And, like, I was going to prepare this document that said, "Here are all the things you should never do with Enzyme. Like, Enzyme encourages you to do these things; you should not do these things. And let me explain why." And I just hated that I needed a document like that.
\n\nAnd so, I tweeted, "I'm seriously starting to think that I should make my own very small testing lib and drop Enzyme entirely. Most of Enzyme's features are not at all useful and many damaging to my test bases. I'd rather have something smaller that encourages better practices." And so, I tweeted that March 15th, 2018. I did that. I did exactly that.
\n\nWhat I often do in my workshops is I try to build the abstraction that we're going to use so that you can use it better. So, I was, like, building Enzyme, and I realized the jump between what I had built, the little utilities that I had built as part of the workshop, from that to Enzyme was just a huge leap. And so, I thought, you know what? These utilities that I have built to teach Enzyme are actually really good. What if I just turned that into a testing utility? And that became Testing Library, which, fast forward to today, is the number one testing library for React. And it's recommended for testing React, and Vue, and Angular.
\n\nThe ideas that are in Testing Library got adopted by Playwright. If you're writing tests for anything in the browser, you are very likely using something that was either originally developed by me or inspired by the work that I did. And it all came from that testing workshop that I was working on. So, with that, I had not only that testing workshop; I had a number of other workshops around testing.
\n\nAnd so I approached Joel Hooks from Egghead.io. I say, "Hey, I'm getting ready to record a bunch of Egghead courses. I've got, like, six or seven courses I want to do." And he'd seen my work before, you know, I was a very productive course creator. And he said, "Hey, how about we, you know, we've been thinking about doing this special thing. How about we make a website just dedicated to your courses?" And I said, "That sounds great."
\n\nI was a little bit apprehensive because I knew that putting stuff on Egghead meant that I had, like, a built-in audience and everything that was on Egghead, so this would be really the first time of me just branching out with video material on my own. Because, otherwise, if it wasn't Egghead, it was Frontend Masters, and there was the built-in audience there. But yeah, we decided to go for it. And we released it in, I think, November.
\n\nAnd it was that first week...which is always when you make the most is during the launch period. But that launch week, I made more than my PayPal salary for the entire year. And so, that was when I realized, oh, yeah, okay, let's go full-time on this because I don't need two PayPal salaries. I just need one. And then I can spend more time with my family and stuff. And especially as the kids are getting older, they're staying up later, and I want to hang out with them instead of with my computer at night [laughter], and so...
\n\nWILL: I love how you explain that because I came in around 2018, 2019. And I remember Enzyme, and it was so confusing, so hard to work with, especially for, you know, a junior dev that's just trying to figure it out. And I remember Testing JavaScript and then using that library, and it was just so much easier to, like, grab whatever you needed to grab. Those utils made the biggest difference, and still today, they make a huge difference. So yes, I just resonate with what you're saying. That's amazing.
\n\nKENT: Aw, thank you so much.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. You did Testing JavaScript. And then what was your next course that you did?
\n\nKENT: I quit PayPal, go full-time teaching. That first year, I actually did an update to Testing JavaScript. There were a couple of changes in Testing Library and other things that I needed to update it for. And then I started working on Epic React. So, while I was doing all this testing stuff, I was also very into React, creating a bunch of workshops around that. I was invited to speak all over the world to talk about React. And I had a couple of workshops already for React. So, I was invited to give workshops at these conferences about React.
\n\nAnd so, I thought, you know, let's do this again, and we'll do it with React this time. The other thing was, I'd never really planned on being the testing guy. It just kind of happened, and I actually didn't really like it either. I wanted to be more broad than just testing. So, that kind of motivated me to say, hey, let's do something with React to be a little bit more broad.
\n\nYeah, so I worked on putting those workshops together and delivered them remotely. And then, yeah, COVID hit, and just really messed everything up [laughs] really bad. So, I had everything done on my end for Epic React by March of 2020, which is, like, immediately after COVID got started, in the U.S. at least. And so, yeah, then we actually didn't end up releasing Epic React until October that year, which, honestly [laughs], was a little bit frustrating for me because I was like, "Hey, guys, I have recorded all the videos and everything. Can we get this released?" But, like, that just was a really rough year for everybody.
\n\nBut yeah, so Egghead got the site put together. I did a bunch of interviews and stuff. And then we launched in October of 2020. That was way bigger than Testing JavaScript because Testing JavaScript was still very informed by my experience as an Egghead instructor, which, typically, the Egghead courses are, like, a video where watch me do this thing, and then you'll learn something and go apply it to your own stuff. And that's kind of what Testing JavaScript was built as.
\n\nBut as part of the update of Testing JavaScript in 2019, I added another workshop module called Testing Node Applications. And in that one, I decided, hey, typically, I would have a workshop version of my material and a course version. The workshop version had like instructions and exercises. And the course version was no instructions or anything. It was just, like, watch these videos. And it was just me doing the exercises.
\n\nAnd with the update of Testing JavaScript, I added that Testing Node workshop, and I said, hey, what if we just, like, embrace the fact that these are exercises, and it's just, like, me recording the workshop? How I would deliver the workshop? And so, I tested that out, and that went really well. And so, I doubled down on that with Epic React. And I said, okay, now, this isn't just, like, watch these videos. This is a do the exercise and then watch me do the exercise.
\n\nSo, Epic React was not only a lot more material but the format of the material was more geared for retention and true practice and learning. And so, Epic React ended up doing much better than Testing JavaScript, and even still, is still doing a remarkable job as far as course material is concerned. And, like, so many people are getting a lot of really great knowledge from Epic React. So yeah, very gratifying to have that.
\n\nWILL: Once again, I've used Epic React. It's taught me so many...stretched me. And I do like the format, so yes, I totally agree with that, yeah. The next thing, Remix, correct?
\n\nKENT: Yeah. So, how I got into Remix, around the same time we finished recording Epic React videos, I was doing some other stuff kind of to keep content going and stuff while we were waiting to launch Epic React. And around that same time, my friend Ryan Florence and Michael Jackson––they were doing the React training thing. And so, we were technically competitors. Like I said, Ryan and I kind of joined forces temporarily for his Workshop Me thing, but that didn't end up working out very well. And Michael really wanted Ryan back, and so they got back together.
\n\nAnd their React training business went way better than it had before. They were hiring people and all sorts of stuff. And then, a training business that focuses on in-person training just doesn't do very well when COVID comes around. And so, they ended up having to lay off everybody and tried to figure out, okay, now what are we going to do? Our income has gone overnight. This is a bit of a simplification. But they decided to build software and get paid for it like one does.
\n\nSo, they started building Remix. Ryan, actually, around that time, moved back to Utah. He and I would hang out sometimes, and he would share what he was working on with Michael. We would do, like, Zoom calls and stuff, too. I just got really excited about what they were working on. I could see the foundation was really solid, and I thought it was awesome. But I was still working on Epic React.
\n\nI end up launching Epic React. He launches Remix the very next month as a developer preview thing. Yeah, it definitely...it looked a lot like current Remix in some ways but very, very different in lots of others. But I was super hooked on that. And so, I paid for the developer preview and started developing my website with it. And around the next year in August, I was getting close to finishing my website.
\n\nMy website is, like, pretty legit. If you haven't gone to kentcdodds.com. Yet, it is cooler than you think it is. There's a lot that goes into that website. So, I had a team help me with the product planning and getting illustrations and had somebody help me implement the designs and all that stuff. It was a pretty big project.
\n\nAnd then, by August of 2021, Ryan and I were talking, and I said, "Hey, listen, I want to update Epic React to use Remix because I just think that is the best way to build React applications. But I have this little problem where Remix is a paid framework. That's just going to really reduce the number of people who are interested in learning what I have to teach. And on top of that, like, it just makes it difficult for people to test things out." And so, he, around that time, was like, "Hey, just hold off a little bit. We've got some announcements."
\n\nAnd so, I think it was September when they announced that they'd raised VC money and they were going to make Remix open source. That was when Ryan said, "Hey, listen, Kent, I think that it's awesome you want to update Epic React to use Remix. But the problem is that Remix isn't even 1.0 yet. The community is super small. It needs a lot of help. If you release a course on Remix right now, then you're not going to get any attention because, like, nobody even knows what it is."
\n\nSo, part of me is like, yeah, that's true. But also, the other part of me is like, how do people find out what it is [laughs] unless there's, like, material about it? But he was right. And he said, "Listen, we've got a bunch of VC money. I've always wanted to work with you. How about we just hire you? And you can be a full-time teacher about Remix. But you don't have to charge anything. You just, like, make a bunch of stuff for free about Remix." I said, "That sounds great. But, you know, to make that worth my while because I'm really happy with what I'm doing with this teaching thing, like, I'm going to need a lot of Remix."
\n\nAnd so, Michael Jackson was like, "How about we just make you a co-founder, and we give you a lot of Remix?" And I said, "Okay, let's do this." And so I jumped on board with them as a year-delayed co-founder. I guess that's pretty common. But, like, that felt kind of weird to me [laughs] to be called a co-founder. But yeah, so I joined up with them.
\n\nI worked on documentation a little bit, mostly community building. I ran Remix Conf. Shopify was interested in what we were doing. And we were interested in what Shopify was doing because, at the time, they were working on Hydrogen, which was one of the early adopters of React Server Components. And, of course, everybody was interested in whether Remix was going to be adding support for server components. And Ryan put together a couple of experiments and found out that server components were nowhere near ready. And we could do better than server components could as of, you know, the time that he wrote the blog posts, like, two years ago.
\n\nSo, Hydrogen was working with server components. And I put us in touch with the Hydrogen team—I think it was me—to, like, talk with the Hydrogen team about, like, "Hey, how about instead of spending all this time building your own framework, you just build on top of Remix then you can, you know, make your Shopify starter projects just, like, a really thin layer on top of Remix and people will love it? And this is very important to us because we need to get users, especially really big and high profile users, so people will take us seriously."
\n\nAnd so, we have this meeting. They fly a bunch of their people out to Salt Lake. They're asking us questions. We're asking them questions and saying, "Hey, listen, this is why server components are just not going to work out for you." Well, apparently, they didn't listen to us. It felt like they were just like, "No, we're highly invested in this. We've already sunk all this cost into this, but we're going to keep going." And they did end up shipping Hydrogen version 1 on top of server components, which I just thought was a big mistake.
\n\nAnd it wasn't too long after that they came back and said, "Hey, we're kind of interested in having you guys join Shopify." So, right after Remix Conf, I go up into Michael's room at the hotel with Ryan. And they say, "Hey, listen, Kent, we're talking with Shopify about selling Remix and joining Shopify," and kind of bounced back and forth on whether we wanted to do it. All of us were just not sure. Because when I joined Remix, I was thinking, okay, we're going to build something, and it's going to be huge. This is going to be bigger than Vercel, like multibillion-dollar company. So, I really kind of struggled with thinking, hey, we're selling out. Like, we're just getting started here.
\n\nSo, Ryan and I ended up at RenderATL in Atlanta at that conference. We were both speaking there. And Ryan didn't fill out the right form. So, he actually didn't have a hotel room [laughs], and so he ended up staying in my room. I intentionally always get a double bedroom just in case somebody needs to stay with me because somebody did that for me once, and I just...it was really nice of them. So, I've always done that since. And so, I said, "Yeah, Ryan, you can stay with me."
\n\nAnd so, we spent just a ton of time together. And this was all while we were trying to decide what to do with Shopify. And we had a lot of conversations about, like, what do we want for Remix in the future? And it was there that I realized, oh if I want to take this to, like, multi-billion dollar valuation, I've got to do things that I am not at all interested in doing. Like, you've got to build a business that is worth that much money and do business-related things.
\n\nOn top of all of that, to get any money out of it...because I just had a percentage of the company, not actually any money. There was no stock. So, the only way you can get money out of a situation like that is if you have a liquidation event like an IPO, which sounds, like, awful—I [laughs] would hate to go through an IP0—or you have to be bought. And if you're worth $2 billion, or 3, or whatever, who can buy you? There's almost nobody who can buy you at that valuation. Do you really want to outprice anybody that could possibly buy you?
\n\nAnd then, on top of that, to get there, that's, like, a decade worth of your life of working really superduper hard to get to that point, and there's no guarantee. Ryan would always say a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. He was saying Shopify is a bird in the hand, and we do not know what the future holds. And so, we were all finally convinced that, yeah, we want to sell, and so we decided, yeah, let's sell.
\n\nAnd as the sale date grew closer, I was getting excited because I was like, oh, I can be back on the TC39 because Shopify is, like, I don't know if they're actually sending delegates to the TC39, but I'm sure that they would be interested if I ask them to, like, "Hey, let's be involved in the evolution of JavaScript." And I know they're on the Web Working Group. Like, they're on a bunch of different committees and stuff. And I just thought it'd be really cool to get involved in the web platform again. And then, on top of that, I just thought, you know what? I'll just spend all my time teaching Shopify developers how to use Remix. That sounds like a lot of fun.
\n\nAs things drew closer, I got more and more uneasy about that. And I thought, you know, I could probably do just as well for myself by going full-time teacher again. I've done this thing before. I just really like being a teacher and, like, having total control over everything that I do. And if I work at Shopify, they're going to tell me, "Hey, you need to, like, do this, and that, and the other." And I don't know if I want to go back to that.
\n\nAnd so, I decided, this is awesome. Super, super good job, folks. I think I've done everything for you that you need me to do. I'm going to bail out. And so, yeah, Shopify wasn't super jazzed about that. But the deal went through anyway. And that's how I ended my time at Shopify.
\n\nWILL: I love it. It's lining up perfectly because you say you left Shopify to go back doing more teaching. And then you released another course; that's Epic Web, correct?
\n\nKENT: Right. That was the reason I left Shopify or I didn't join up with Shopify is because I wanted to work on Epic Web. In this 2010s blog post, one of the last things that I mention...toward the bottom, there's a section, KCD EDU, which is basically, like, I wanted to help someone go from zero to my level as an engineer in a single place where I teach just all of the things that I can teach to get somebody there. And so I wanted to call it KCD EDU, but I guess you have to be an accredited university to get that domain or something. But that was the idea.
\n\nErin Fox, back in 2020 she said, "I'm expecting you to announce your online Kent C. Dodds engineering bootcamp." And I replied, "I'm planning on doing this, no joke." So, I've been wanting to do this for a really long time. And so, leaving Remix was like, yeah, this is what I'm going to go do. I'm going to go build KCD EDU.
\n\nAnd I was talking with Ryan at some point about, like, what I was planning on doing in the future. And something he said or something I said in that conversation made me realize, oh, shoot, I want to build Epic Web Dev. So, I've got Epic React. I don't want Epic Remix. I want people to, like, be web developers. Remix is just, like, an implementation detail. And so, I went and I was relieved to find that the domain was still available: epicweb.dev, and so I bought that. And so, I was always planning on, like, even while I was at Remix, eventually, I would leave Remix and go build Epic Web Dev. So, that's what I did.
\n\nStarting in August, I decided, okay, how about this: I will build a legit real-world web application, and then I will use that to teach people how to build legit real-world web applications from start to finish. If it's included as, like, knowledge you would need to build this web app, then that's knowledge you need to be able to build a full-stack application. That was the idea.
\n\nSo, I started live streaming in, like, August or September, and I would live stream almost everyday development of this web app. So, people can go and watch those on my YouTube channel. I would livestream for, like, sometimes six hours at a time with breaks every 45 minutes. So, I'd just put it on a break slide, go for a quick walk, or take a drink, whatever, and then I would come back. And I would just, like, so much development and live streaming for a long time.
\n\nOnce I got, like, in a pretty good place with that, the app I was building was called Rocket Rental. It's like Airbnb for rocket ships. So, you could rent, like, your own rocket ship to other people to fly. So, it had to be, like, realistic enough that, like, you could relate it to whatever you were building but not realistic enough that people would actually think it was a real product [laughs].
\n\nI worked with Egghead again. They actually have a sister company now called Skill Recordings that's responsible for these types of products. And so, I was working with Skill Recordings on, like, they would get me designs. And then I would, like, work with other people to help implement some of those designs. And then, I started working on turning this stuff into workshops.
\n\nAnd with Epic React, we have this workshop app that you run locally so that you can work in your own editor, in your own environment, and with your own editor plugins and all that stuff. I want you to practice the way that you're going to actually exercise that practice when you're done––when you're working at work. And so we have this workshop app with Epic React. Well, that was built with Create React app, very limited on what you could do.
\n\nAnd so, I started working on a new workshop app that I just called KCD Shop, that was built with Remix. And so, now we've got a bunch of server-side stuff we can do. And this server side is running on your machine. And so, so much stuff that I can do with this thing.
\n\nOne of the big challenges with Epic React was that the video you watch is on epicreact.dev, but the exercises you run are on localhost. And so, you have to keep those things in sync. You'd see, okay, I'm in exercise one on the videos. Let me go find exercise one in the app and then find the file exercise one. So, you've got, like, three different things you've got to keep in sync.
\n\nAnd so, with the workshop app for Epic Web, I said, how about we make it so that we can embed the video into the app? And so, you just have localhost running, and you see the video right above the instructions for the exercise. And so, you watch the video that kind of introduces the problem that you're going to be doing, and then you read the instructions. And then we can also make it so that we have links you can click or buttons you can click in the app that will open your editor exactly where you're supposed to go.
\n\nSo you don't have to keep anything in sync. You go to the app, and you watch the video. You read the instructions. You click this button. It opens your editor. And so, that's exactly what I did. And it's an amazing experience. It is phenomenal, not just for the workshop learners but for me, as a workshop developer, like, creating the workshop––it's just been phenomenal. Because, like, we also have this diff view where you can see the difference between your work in progress and the solution. So, if you get stuck, then it's very easy to see where you went wrong.
\n\nIt also means that we can build even very large applications as part of our workshop and our exercise where there are dozens or hundreds of files. And you don't have to worry about finding them because it'll tell you exactly which ones you need to be working in, so all sorts of really, really cool things. So, this workshop app––actually, took a lot of time and effort to build. But now that it's done, like, people are going through it now, and they're just loving it.
\n\nSo, I built the workshop app, I put the first workshop of Rocket Rental into this workshop app, and I delivered it. And I found out very quickly that a full application with all the bells and whistles you'd expect, like, tons of different routes and stuff, was just too much. Even with the workshop app, it was just really pretty difficult for people to gain enough context around what they were building to be effective. So, I was concerned about that.
\n\nBut then, around the same time, I started realizing that I had a marketing problem. And that is that with Testing JavaScript, people know that they're customers because they're like, I'm a JavaScript developer, and I know how to test––boom. I'm a Testing JavaScript customer. With Epic React, I join this company; they're using React; I need to know React, boom. I'm a customer of Epic React.
\n\nBut with something like Epic Web, it's just so broad that, like, yeah, I am a web developer. I just don't know if I'm a customer to Epic Web. Like, is Epic Web for only really advanced people, or is it only for really beginner people? Or is it only for people who are using this set of tools or... Like, it's just a very difficult thing to, like, identify with. And so I wanted to de-emphasize the fact that we used Remix because the fact is that you can walk away from this material and work in a Next.js app or a SvelteKit app and still use so much of the knowledge that you gained in that environment.
\n\nSo, I didn't want to focus on the fact that we're using any particular set of tools because the tools themselves I select them, not only because I think that they are really great tools but also because the knowledge you gain from these tools is very transferable. And I'm going to teach it in a way that's very transferable. That was the plan.
\n\nBut I still had this issue, like, I need people to be able to identify themselves as customers of this thing. So, what I decided to do through some, like, hints and inspiration from other people was how about I turn Rocket Rental into a much simpler app and make that a project starter? And while I was at Remix, actually, I directed the creation of this feature called Remix Stacks. It's basically the CLI allows you to create a Remix app based on a template. I said I can make a Remix Stack out of this, and I called it the Epic Stack.
\n\nAnd so, just took all of the concepts that came from Rocket Rental; applied it to a much simpler app. It's just a note-taking app, but it has, like, all of the features that you would need to build in a typical application. So, it's got a database. It's got deployment, GitHub integration. So, you have GitHub Actions to run tests and stuff. It has the tests. It has authentication already implemented, and even two-factor auth, and third-party auth, and file upload, and, like, just tons and tons of stuff built in. And so, people can start a new project and ship that and have a lot of success, like, skip all the basic stuff.
\n\nSo, I presented that at Remix Conf. I wasn't working at Remix anymore, but they asked me to run Remix Conf again, so I did. And I told them, "If I'm running it this year, I'm going to select myself to speak." And I spoke and introduced the Epic Stack there. And then that was when I started to create the workshops based on the Epic Stack.
\n\nAnd so, now it was no longer we're going to have workshops to build Rocket Rental; it was we're going to have workshops to build the Epic Stack, with the idea being that if you build the thing, you are able to use it better, like, still following the same pattern I did with Testing JavaScript where we build a framework first. Like, before you start using Jest, we're building Jest and same with Testing Library. We do the same thing with React. Before we bring in React, I teach you how to create DOM nodes yourself and render those to the page and all of that.
\n\nAnd so, here with Epic Web, I'm going to teach you how to build the framework that you can use to build applications. So, that is what Epic Web is, it's effectively we're building the Epic Stack. In the process, you learn all about really basic things, like, how do you get styles onto the page all the way to really complex things like, how do you validate a user's email? Or how do you implement two-factor auth? Or how do you create a test database? So, you don't have to mock out the database, but you can still run your test in isolation.
\n\nAround this time was when my wife and I were trying to become pregnant. And we got the news that we were expecting, and we were super excited. And so, I'm thinking, okay, I've got to ship this thing before the baby comes. Because who knows what happens after this baby comes? So, I am talking with Skill Recordings. I'm saying, "We've got to get this done by October." I think it was May.
\n\nAnd so, I was thinking like, okay, I've probably got, like, maybe eight days worth of workshops here. And so, kind of outlined all of the workshops. Like, I know what needs to be included. I know what the end looks like because I've got the Epic Stack. The end is the Epic Stack. The beginning is, like, a brand new create Remix app creation right there. So, I know what the start and the end looks like. I kind of can figure out how much time I need to teach all of that. And I said, "Let's do eight days."
\n\nAnd so, we got that scheduled and started selling tickets. And we sold out 30 tickets in just a couple of days, and that's what we originally planned for. I'm like, well, gosh, I can handle 80 people in a workshop. I've done that before, but that's about as far as I go. I don't really like going that much. In fact, online, especially, I only like to go up to, like, 40. But we said, "Hey, let's knock this out of the park." So, we doubled it, and we sold another 30 seats. And so, it was sold out before even the early bird sale was over. So, that was pretty encouraging.
\n\nThe problem was that I hadn't actually developed this material. I'd already given one workshop about testing with Rocket Rental, and I'd given one workshop about the fundamentals with Rocket Rental. But I hadn't done anything of the authentication or, the forms, or data modeling. Also, like, Epic Notes app is different from Rocket Rental. So, I got to rebuild those workshops.
\n\nLike, the first workshop was going to start in, like, two weeks, maybe three weeks. And so, I'm working on these workshops. And I'm like, I've finished the first workshop, which was going to be a two-day workshop, and so I get that done. And so, that next week, I'm getting close to finished on the forms workshop, and then I start the workshops.
\n\nAnd that was when I started to realize, oh, shoot, I am in huge trouble because I have to not only deliver two workshops a week, so that's two days a week that I'm not able to work on the workshops, really. And then also develop the material as I go, which I don't normally do this at all because I just don't like stressing myself out so much. But, like, I'd had this timeline put together, and I'm like, I need to ship this by October.
\n\nFor about five weeks, I worked 80 to 100 hours a week, maybe more, in a row to get those workshops created [laughs]. And I do not recommend this, and I will never do it again. I can tell you this now. I didn't tell anybody at the time because I was worried that people would think, well, geez, is that the type of product you create, like, you're just rushing through this stuff?
\n\nBut I can tell you this safely now because the results speak for themselves. Like, these people loved this stuff. They ate it up. It was so good. I won't do this again. It's not something that I typically do. But it worked. And, like, I put in a crazy amount of work to make this work. People loved it. And yeah, I'm really, really happy with that.
\n\nThe next step, though, so it was eight days' worth of workshops in four weeks. And I realized, as I almost always realize when I'm presenting workshops, that, like, oh my gosh, I have way more material than I have time for. So, by the end of it, when I was all done, I'm pretty sure we've got around 16 days' worth of workshop material, so twice as much as I thought, which is; honestly, I shouldn't be surprised because this is always how it works.
\n\nSo, I've got 16 days worth of workshops to record starting in August that needed to get all recorded six weeks before the launch date, which was my birthday. So, I have until, like, the first part of September to get all this stuff recorded. That is a lot to get recorded, but I managed to do that. So, in about four weeks, I recorded 450 videos. Like, anybody go through this material, and you'll be blown away that I was able to do this. So, I'm patting myself on the back, I know. I probably sound super cocky, but I nailed it. And it is so good.
\n\nI can credit a lot of my ability to record and get those videos produced, first, to the fact that I wasn't editing the videos. I would export the videos, and an editor would take care of editing it for me. And then, secondly, that I've done this for so long. I've just been creating workshops for a long time. I'm just really practiced at teaching while I'm typing and talking and everything. And then, also, just the level of preparation that I put into this workshop material. It was just a very well-oiled machine by this point. So, it ended up working out super-duper well.
\n\nSo, I get the videos done. I'm recording a bunch of expert interviews with 25 people during the month of September. Then we launched on my birthday, October 18th. And it went superduper well.
\n\nWILL: Wow. That's a lot of video recording and a lot of stuff you have to do. I feel like that's most parents when they're trying to meet a deadline for a kid that you don't know when they're coming. It's like, oh, I got to do this. I got to do that before the baby comes. So, you did it. You were successful with that [laughter].
\n\nKENT: Yeah, thank you.
\n\nWILL: Wow, who is this course for?
\n\nKENT: The course is for anybody who wants to learn how to build web applications the way I do. I like to focus my building of web applications on the primitives of the web platform as much as possible while acknowledging the practicality of using a framework.
\n\nIf you want to be able to ship really awesome user experiences on the web platform, regardless of whether you're using the same tools I am, like, if you're not using Prisma, if you're not using Tailwind, if you're not using Remix, you're still going to walk away from this with a lot of really, really practical material. Because I don't really focus on the tools as much as I do on the patterns and the practical application of security practices and various things of that nature. So, anybody who wants to be really good at the web will benefit a lot from Epic Web.
\n\nWILL: Okay. And I'll put this in the show notes, but they can find it at epicweb.dev?
\n\nKENT: Mm-hmm.
\n\nWILL: Perfect. Okay. Is there anything else that you want to talk about around epicweb.dev?
\n\nKENT: I'll just reiterate that, like, your learning experience on epicweb.dev will be different from anything you've ever seen before. It will be a little bit similar to Epic React if you've done that before. But even still, the new workshop app is unreal, and people are loving it.
\n\nOne feature that I really love about it is we try to make it so that you don't feel like you're learning alone because we learn better when we're learning together, and we feel like we're not alone. So, we have a presence feature on Epic Web. So, when you're working through the workshops, you can see all the other people that are currently working on the workshops as well. Of course, you can opt out of this if you don't want your face on there, but, like, it's just, like, a little pile of faces of people who are working on it. And it says where they're working right now. And it's just really, really cool to be able to have that camaraderie.
\n\nSo, it's really geared toward retention. So, this is nothing like a Udemy course that is, like, a 45-hour thing that you just sit and watch. This is very hands-on. You will remember this stuff, and you will become a better developer when you're done.
\n\nWILL: Wow, wow. I love that I have not gotten the course, but I'm definitely looking into it. You've talked me into it. I'm going to go and try to try it out. So yes.
\n\nKENT: Cool.
\n\nWILL: Well, I want to close out on a couple of things that I saw. And it was just interesting hearing your story. Like, early on, you were talking about your purpose and kind of the things that you love. One thing that I picked up on is, like, you're saying that you love audio and video programming and teaching. It's amazing that that's essentially what you're doing now.
\n\nKENT: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: Like, that's what you're in right now. You're in teaching with audio and video, and you're teaching programming.
\n\nKENT: Hmm. Yeah, it is kind of funny how it, like, comes full circle.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, so I really love that. And then I have this thing, whenever I think something, especially positive, I try to tell people. I hate to not share what I'm thinking, especially when it's positive because I feel like if it's negative, we just do it so freely, but we never do the positive.
\n\nSo, I think, for you, I want to just tell you you had a couple of things you were saying, like your purpose when writing software is the people. You want to teach people how to write awesome software to make the world a better place, and I just want you to know I know, for me, you've done that. You've helped me so much on my journey of coding and development. And I just really appreciate you and what you've done for the space. And I just want to say thank you.
\n\nKENT: Aw, Will, thank you. That does mean a lot to me. So, I really appreciate you saying that.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, awesome. Well, it was a great conversation. I loved learning more about you and just everything you shared. So, thank you for being a part of the podcast.
\n\nKENT: Thank you.
\n\nWILL: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.
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Special Guest: Kent C. Dodds.
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If you missed the first episode with thoughtbot Incubator Program partcipants and founders Mike Rosenthal and Chris Cerrito of Goodz, you can go here first to catch up!
\n\nStartup founders Mike Rosenthal and Chris Cerrito are participating in thoughtbot's eight-week incubator program. Mike, with a background in the music industry, and Chris, experienced in physical computing and exhibit development, are collaborating on a startup that creates physical objects linked to digital content, primarily in music. Their goal is to enhance the connection between tangible and digital experiences, starting with a product that resembles a mixtape, using NFC technology for easy access to digital playlists.
\n\nThis project is unique within the thoughtbot incubator as it's the first pure consumer product and involves both physical and digital elements. The team is engaged in user interviews and market validation, with the aim of launching a physical product with a digital backend. They are exploring various marketing strategies for the product and are in the process of building its technical backend.
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nLINDSEY: All right. I'm going to kick us off here. Thanks, everyone, for tuning in. We're doing our first update with two founders that are now going through the Startup incubator at thoughtbot. thoughtbot, if you're not familiar, product design and development consultancy. We'll help you on your product and make your team a success. One of the very fun ways we do that is through the startup thoughtbot incubator, which is an eight-week program.
\n\nSo, with us today, I myself am Lindsey Christensen, marketing for thoughtbot. We also have Jordyn Bonds, who is our Director of Product Strategy and runs the thoughtbot incubator. And then, as I mentioned, we've got two new founders who are going to tell us a little bit about themselves and what they're working on. Mike Rosenthal, let's kick off with you. Can you tell us a little bit about maybe your background and what brings you to present day?
\n\nMIKE: Sure. First of, thanks for having us. It's been a lot of fun doing this over the last [inaudible 01:03]; it's only two weeks, two and a half weeks, something like that. It feels like a lot more. I come from a music industry background, so worked in sort of marketing and strategy for artists for a long time; worked with a band called OK Go back, sort of starting in 2009 or so.
\n\nI did a lot of early kind of viral music video stuff. And we were sort of early to the idea of sort of leveraging fan engagement and revenue, honestly, kind of beyond sort of just selling their music and touring, so sort of exploring other ways that artists can make money and connect with their fans and was with those guys for five years.
\n\nAnd then, I went on and worked at an artist management company in Brooklyn called Mick Management and ran the marketing department there, so doing similar type of work but for a roster of 2025 major label bands. And so, really got to see fan engagement on all different levels, from really large bands down to baby bands who were just getting started. And then, yeah, started my first startup in 2018, so doing sort of fan engagement work, and NFTs, and blockchain-type stuff working with bands, but then also sports and entertainment properties. Yeah, that kind of brings me here.
\n\nSo, always been sort of on the music side of things, which ties into a lot of what Chris and I are working on now, but more generally, sort of fan engagement and how to, you know, drive revenue and engagement for artists and deliver value for fans.
\n\nLINDSEY: Very interesting. All right, Chris, going to head over to you. Chris Cerrito, can you tell us a bit about your background? And it sounds like yours and Mike's paths; this isn't the first time you've crossed.
\n\nCHRIS: No. Mike and I have been working together since 2007, I believe. Yeah, that's a great place to start. I've always been kind of a maker and a tinkerer, always been interested in art materials, how things are put together. And that kind of culminated at grad school, where Mike and I met at NYU, where we both studied physical computing and human-computer interaction, making weird things that kind of changed the way that people interact and play with technology in their day-to-day lives.
\n\nI think the first project he and I worked on together was a solar robotic band that we played with light in front of a bunch of people. It was very wonderful and confusing at the same time. After grad school, I was lucky enough to become a resident artist and then an exhibit developer at a museum in San Francisco called the Exploratorium, which is a museum of science, art, and human perception.
\n\nI spent ten years there working on exhibits teaching people things ranging from, let's see, I built a dueling water fountain to teach visitors and users about the prisoner's dilemma. I built a photo booth that used computer vision to teach people about the microbiome that lives on their face, like, just all kinds of weird things like that that fuse the digital and the physical worlds. I loved my time there.
\n\nAnd then kind of COVID hit and I realized that everything I had been working on for ten years was locked up in a museum that I no longer had access to. And it really gave me a desire to kind of bring my ideas into the physical world. I wanted to make things that people interact with and use in their lives on a day-to-day basis. And I would say that's really what brought me here to this point.
\n\nLINDSEY: Very cool. Very interesting backgrounds, in my opinion. What is the new idea? What is the thing that you're bringing into the incubator? Mike, I'll start with you. Tell us a bit about what you're working on.
\n\nMIKE: Chris and I are working on physical objects that connect to digital content is sort of the broadest way that I could describe it. I think, you know, as Chris kind of mentioned, you know, we've both been working on sort of physical things that have interactivity for a lot of our careers. I think we both come from an era of a lot more physical objects in your life, whether that's, you know, VHS cassettes at your parent's house growing up, or records and tape cassettes, and just sort of physical things that remind you of the things that you love.
\n\nAnd I think that, you know, cell phones are great, and the sort of the smartphone era is amazing and having, you know, every single song, and movie, and television show and podcasts, et cetera, in a black box in my pocket is great. But I think we've sort of gotten to a point where it's more of an organizational problem now than anything else. And we sort of forget the actual things that we love in this world.
\n\nAnd so, we're working on basically making physical objects to tie to digital content, and we're starting with music. And that's what we've been working on at thoughtbot is sort of how we can create physical things that basically you can tap, and that will take you to streaming content. One of the first things we're working on literally looks like sort of a little mixtape on a piece of wood, and you can just load that up with any sort of playlist that you might have on Spotify, or Apple Music, or YouTube, or whatever, and tap it, and it will take you there.
\n\nAnd so, it's just sort of that idea of like, oh, we used to be able to sort of flip through a friend's music collection and judge them ruthlessly, or become even better friends with them based on kind of what you saw there. And we think that the time is ripe for, I don't know, a blend of that nostalgia with actual sort of, like, real-world utility that people could be into this right now. Chris, what am I missing there?
\n\nCHRIS: I'd say just to expand on that a little bit, it's, you know, we spend so much time in the digital world, but we still exist in the physical. And a lot of the things, like, you might spend a really long time editing a photo for your parents or making a playlist for a friend, and there's, like, a value there that might not translate because it's digital. It's ephemeral. And I think tying these digital assets to a physical thing makes them special. It gives them, like, a permanent place in your life, something to respect, to hold on to, and maybe even pass down at some point.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, and I think before we logged on, we actually had Jordyn and Mike grabbing cassette tapes from the room there and to show us --
\n\nMIKE: [inaudible 06:49]
\n\nLINDSEY: What [laughs] was some of their collection and to prove some of the power of these physical –-
\n\nMIKE: Nothing, like, just old mixtapes.
\n\nLINDSEY: Mementos.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. We were just talking about this on our sync with the thoughtbot crew. They're, like, there's sort of two levels of nostalgia. There's nostalgia for people like us who, yeah, [crosstalk 07:09] mixtapes, right? For people who actually grew up with this stuff and still have it lying around or don't but, like, look at something like that that gives you, like, instant flashbacks, right? You're like, oh my God, I remember scrolling on that little j-card or, like, getting a mixtape for my first, you know, boyfriend or girlfriend, and having it just mean everything. So, there's people for whom that was a thing.
\n\nAnd there's, you know, generations of people for whom that is, like, their only connection to that is, you know, Stranger Things or, like, you know, the mixtape exists in pop culture as a reference. So, there's still, like, a very strong attachment there, but it's not a personal one, right? It's a cultural one. But I think everybody has that connection. So, that's kind of why we're starting with the mixtape, just because I think everyone can kind of relate to that in some way.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, no, yeah. When I hear mixtape, it goes immediately to crushes. You make a mixtape for your crush.
\n\nCHRIS: Exactly.
\n\nLINDSEY: It's a huge, powerful market, powerful.
\n\nMIKE: Oh my God, so powerful. I mean, yeah, I don't know anybody --
\n\nLINDSEY: What's more motivating?
\n\nMIKE: [laughs] Yeah, exactly.
\n\nCHRIS: Or even just I have a really good friend who I don't get to see as often as I'd like. And he and I are constantly sending each other, you know, Spotify links and text messages. And it's great. I love that interaction. But at the same time, you know, I might forget to add that to a playlist, and then it's kind of lost. If I had taken the time to make something and send it to him physically or vice versa, it just becomes so much more special and so much more real.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. I mean, honestly, I first made these...I mean, we can go to this origin if we want. But, like, I literally just went on moo.com, right? The business card company. And they let you upload, you know, 50 different images, and they'll send you all of those as business cards. And so, I literally went on and just made business cards of all the album covers of, like, albums that I loved growing up, right? And their cheapest is this little piece of cardboard. But I had 50 of these, and I'd put them all out on my coffee table, just as something I wanted to have around.
\n\nAnd people kept coming, you know, friends would come over, and you would just have these conversations that I haven't had in 10 or 15 years, right? Because no one's going to come to my house and pick up my phone and look at my Spotify collection. But if these things are all just sitting out, they're like, "Oh shit, you're into that? Like, I haven't thought about that album in 15 years." Or like, "Oh, I didn't know you were into that. I'm, like, a crazy super fan of that artist as well." And all of a sudden, we're having these conversations that we just weren't having. Yeah, there's something there where it's all been nostalgia coupled with the kind of prompting of conversation and connection that we've kind of lost, I think.
\n\nCHRIS: And I think just to clarify a little bit on what Mike's saying, is, you know, this mixtape will be our first product launch, and then we're hoping to move into collectibles for artists and labels. So, shortly after we launch this tape, we're hoping to launch some kind of pilot with a label where you will be able to buy a version of this for your favorite music artist at a merch table in a concert, possibly online. Our dream is to have these sitting there on the table with T-shirts, and records, and other things that artists sell so you can express for the artists that you love. This is a way of expressing your fandom.
\n\nLINDSEY: Jordyn, heading over to you, this feels like maybe the first consumer product that has gone through the incubator, would you say? Or how do you think about it?
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, if you're a consumer --
\n\nLINDSEY: Or is it different than other types of products?
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, the first incubator project we did with Senga was, I think, what you would call prosumer. So, it was sort of a consumer thing but directed at folks who had kind of freelancing in sort of a business context. It's got a lot of dynamics of the consumer. But this one, for sure, is the first pure consumer play. Though now that I'm thinking about it, you know, AvidFirst had some consumer elements to it, but it was, you know, it was, like, more complex tech [laughs] [inaudible 10:46] totally different thing --
\n\nLINDSEY: But definitely the first of the physical, physical [inaudible 10:52]
\n\nJORDYN: Oh, sure, the first of the physical thing. Right. Absolutely.
\n\nLINDSEY: Does that change any of, like, the approach of the programming, or it's kind of --
\n\nJORDYN: I mean, no, not fundamentally, though it does add this layer of operations that you don't have with a pure software play. So, we have to be, there is a thing that needs to get shipped to people in the world, and that takes timelines, and it takes --
\n\nLINDSEY: Supply chain.
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, exactly. And Chris is doing most of that stuff. I don't want to, you know, this is not, like, the main focus of our team necessarily, but it intersects, right? So, this isn't the first one of these types of products I've worked on personally in my career. But there's something, like, really, for me, very fulfilling about, like, there's software. There's a big component of software. There's also this physical object that needs to exist in the world.
\n\nAnd partly, what's so compelling about Goodz is that it gives you the promise of a physical, like, the sort of good aspects of a physical product, a thing you can hold in your hand and look at and really connect with in that physical way. But it has this dynamic digital, like, essential quality as well. So, it's very compelling as a product because it sort of marries the things that we like about both the physical world and the digital world, which is partly why the team was really excited about working on it [laughs].
\n\nLINDSEY: Well, that was going to be my next question is, you know, what stood out to you about the Goodz application for the incubator and the interview process that made you and the team feel like this was going to be a great project to work on?
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah. So, I think just the team really resonated with the sort of idea in general, and it seemed fun. There was, like, it's a very positive thing, right? It isn't so much about solving problems and pain points. And, sometimes the, you know, when you're very focused on solving problems, it can feel a little doomy because you actually have to, like, immerse yourself in the problems of the people that you're making software for. And sometimes, you start to feel like the world is just full of problems.
\n\nWhat Goodz is doing is sort of it is solving a problem in a sense, but not in that kind of way. It's really, like, a fun upside kind of thing, which I think a lot of the folks on the team were very excited about. But, like, the software component, actually, is very interesting to us from a technological standpoint as well. There's a lot of opportunity here to do interesting things on the backend with an object that's essentially functioning as a bookmark out in the world. What all can you do with that? There's something super compelling and technically interesting about it.
\n\nAnd I think, also, the team was just sort of excited by Chris and Mike, you know, the energy and the kind of background they were bringing to the table was also super interesting. And then, above all else, what I say every time you ask me this question, which is stage fit, y'all, good stage fit. They're right at the beginning. They haven't built the product yet [laughs]. Gotta say it. It's a good stage fit. They know who they're building for broadly but not super specifically. Got a good vision but, like, haven't made that first step with the software. Perfect stage fit for us [laughs].
\n\nLINDSEY: Great. So, Chris, we were talking a bit before about how you two have been collaborators in the past, worked on business ideas before. Why bring this idea into the thoughtbot incubator? What are you hoping to, you know, achieve?
\n\nCHRIS: One of the main reasons why we wanted to bring this into the incubator was just for support, momentum, and then, also, I would say validation for our idea. I mean, we came to the incubator with a very, yeah, I would say it was a fairly developed idea that needed to be proved, and we, quite frankly, needed help with that. You know, Mike and I have our own expertises, but we don't know how to do everything. We're more than willing to jump in where we need to go.
\n\nBut having people with expertise to work with has proven to be incredibly helpful and just having kind of fresh faces to bat ideas around with after he and I have been staring at each other for months now on Zoom calls and meetings. And just, you know, being able to talk about these ideas with fresh faces and new people and get new perspectives has been so very, very helpful.
\n\nI think something that's also great from the momentum standpoint is that because there's a time limit to this experience, we've got the time that we have with you guys, and we've been able to set goals that I think are very achievable for things we want to occur in the next couple of months, and it feels like we're going to get there.
\n\nAnd I think by the end of this, I mean, our hope, and I think we're on track, is to have a functioning physical product that we're going to offer to consumers with a digital backend to support it, which is, in my mind, amazing. That'll totally validate this idea and prove if we have something or not.
\n\nLINDSEY: I was going to ask if you're open to sharing what those goals specifically are. Is that it? Is it that by the end, you have --
\n\nMIKE: Is that it? Lindsey, that's a lot.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nCHRIS: It's a lot. I mean, yeah. I mean, we're going to have a physical object in the world that you can buy via an e-commerce site --
\n\nJORDYN: Sounds like we need Lindsey on the team if Lindsey feels like this is so achievable. [laughter]
\n\nCHRIS: Yeah, yeah. Lindsey...yeah. We're in the beginning [crosstalk 15:47]
\n\nLINDSEY: I meant, is that the goal?
\n\nCHRIS: That is the goal.
\n\nLINDSEY: Is that all?
\n\nCHRIS: I was going to –-
\n\nLINDSEY: Is that all you got?
\n\nCHRIS: Mike, do you agree?
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. Is that the goal? Yes, that is the goal. I mean, you know, when we sat down with the thoughtbot team kind of week one, you know, they're sort of like, "All right, let's define kind of the experiment." So, we refer to them as experiments, which I think is helpful because, like, what are the experiments that we want to be doing during our time here? And, you know, we talked about it a lot.
\n\nAnd yeah, I think it's, you know, having a physical product out in the world, having a website in which to sell it. But also, it's really, like Chris was saying, it's like, it's market validation, and just making sure we actually have something that people want. It's like, you know, running a startup takes so long and, like [laughs], you know, you'll do it for so many years. It's like bands when people say, like, "Oh, that's an overnight sensation." It's like, you know, that band has been slogging it out in tiny, little venues for four years before you ever heard of them.
\n\nIt's like, that's what so much of the startup world feels like to me, too. It's like, "Oh, you're just getting started as a startup?" It's like, "Well, we've been working on this forever." And I know how long this can take. And so, I think we want to learn as early as possible, like, is this something people actually want? Because if they don't, like, we'll just go do something else. I don't want to spend years making something that people don't want.
\n\nSo, I think the biggest goal, for me, is just validation, and then that is sort of how we get there is like, okay, how do we validate this? Cool. Let's identify some, you know, assumptions of personas that we think are people who do actually want this and then try to go sell it to them. And all the implications from that are, okay, well, you need a website where somebody can buy it. You need a physical product that somebody can actually buy. So, all those things sort of come out of that, but, for me, it's like, proving that assumption, is this thing real? Do people actually want this? And everything else is like, okay, how do we prove that?
\n\nLINDSEY: Jordyn, what does that look like in these first few weeks here? User interviews, I assume, how are the user interviews going?
\n\nJORDYN: Always. Always. So, you know, we kick it off by just, like, doing the exercise where we list everybody who might want this. And the team, you know, it's a fun product. Everybody brought their own assumptions and ideas to the table on that. You know, we had a lot of different scenarios we were imagining. It's super fun getting that stuff out of people's heads, just, like, what are we all thinking?
\n\nAnd then, you know, we get to negotiate, like, okay...I always encourage everyone to think, like, if everyone else on the team was on the moon, you had to make a decision about a market segment to pick; which one would you pick? And then we kind of argue about it in a productive way. It really helps us get at, like, what are the dynamics that we think matter upfront? And then we pick one, or, in this case, we have a few. We have a handful.
\n\nAnd we're running interview projects where we just recruit people to talk about people that meet this persona, talk about a specific problem. We're in the middle of that right now. And it's fun, fantastic. These conversations are super interesting. We're validating a lot of the things that Mike and Chris, you know, walked into this with, but we're learning a bunch of new things as well.
\n\nAnd, like, really, part of the aim there is to validate that there's a hole in the market that we might fill but also to hear the language people are using to describe this stuff. So, when people talk about buying music, merch, you know, making playlists, et cetera, like, what language do they use to talk about that? So that we make sure we're speaking the language that our customer uses to describe this stuff. And we're, you know, we're right in the pocket of doing that, learning stuff all the time.
\n\nAnd it helps us kind of hone the messaging. It helps us know where to go talk to people about it, how to talk about it, but it's, you know, it all kind of fits together. And it's just this, really...the early stages. It's just a bunch of us in a room, a virtual room, in this case, sort of, like, tossing ideas around. But out of it crystallizes this sense of alignment about who this is for, how to talk to them about it, and with a goal.
\n\nAnd, you know, Mike and Chris walked in with the exact right mindset about this, which is, yes, it's experiments. We need to validate it. Let's make sure there's a there-there. If there's a there-there, let's figure out where it is [laughs], like, all those things. And we're running these experiments, and it was really [inaudible 19:36]. We got down to business quite quickly here. It was really great.
\n\nLINDSEY: Like you said, it's not necessarily a problem or, you know, the typical framing of a problem. How do you start those user interview questions around this? Do you feel a gap between the physical and the digital sound? [laughter]
\n\nJORDYN: No, no.
\n\nLINDSEY: It's maybe not it [laughs].
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, no. Well, I can tell you what our startup questions are. One of them is, tell me about the last time you bought music merch. Go for it, Lindsey. Tell us.
\n\nLINDSEY: The last time I bought music merch I went to a Tegan and Sara concert a few weeks ago, and I bought a T-shirt.
\n\nJORDYN: Tell me about buying that T-shirt. Why'd you buy it?
\n\nLINDSEY: Because I wanted to remember the show and my time with my friends, and I wanted to support the artists. I know that buying merch is the best way to support your favorite touring artists.
\n\nJORDYN: So, it's just, you know, we could spend the rest of this time talking [laughter] [crosstalk 20:34], and it would be awesome. So, it's really a lot of things like that.
\n\nLINDSEY: Gotcha.
\n\nJORDYN: You don't ask, "What problem are you trying to solve by buying this t-shirt?" Right? Like, that's not, you know, but we ask you to tell us a bunch of stories about when you did this recently. You know, and if you make playlists for friends, you know, that's a different persona. But we would have asked, you know, like, "Tell me about the last playlist you made. You know, who did you share it with? You know, what happened after that? What happened after that? What happened after that?" It's a lot of questions like that. And there's just nothing better. People love to tell you what's going on with them. And it's great [laughs].
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. As you all have been doing these interviews, Mike and Chris, have you been surprised by anything? Any interesting insights that you're seeing already?
\n\nCHRIS: I mean, I haven't done really much in the way of user interviews in the past. This is a really new experience for me. And then we're, obviously, not on the calls because that would be weird and probably intimidating for people. But we're getting lots of highlights from folks who are doing them, you know, in our daily sync.
\n\nAnd I'm surprised at how many, like, really intense, like, playlist nerds we have found even just in, like, the few people we've talked to, like, in the best possible way. Like, people who are like, "I make playlists all the time." Like, you're talking about, like, a vinyl fan or, like, a...Jordyn, what's the story? It's, like, the guy who there was so much out-of-print vinyl that he started a vinyl label just to get the albums in vinyl. [crosstalk 21:56]
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah. There were a bunch of releases that he feels really passionately about that were never released on vinyl that he knew would never be released on vinyl. And so, he started a vinyl record label. And we just found this guy [laughter].
\n\nCHRIS: Is that indicative that that's, like, an entire persona we're going to, like, target? Absolutely not. But it's just, like, it's amazing that even just in the few user interviews we've done, that we've found so many very passionate people. And it's sent me down, like, a TikTok rabbit hole of, like, TikTok, like, music nerd influencer-type folks who are posting playlists.
\n\nAnd they, like, hundreds of thousands of likes on these videos that are literally just, like, screen with text on it that you're supposed to, like, pause the video [laughs] and, like, look at, like, the songs that they're recommending. And it's like, who does that? And it was like, these people do that. And it's like, so there are...it's been very encouraging to me, actually. I was worried that we were going to find not as much passion as we had suspected, and I think the opposite has proven to be true. So, it's exciting.
\n\nCHRIS: Yeah, I completely agree with Mike. It's been so encouraging. I think, for me, what we're doing is an idea that I'm very excited about and have been very excited about for a long time. But hearing the responses that we're getting makes me confident in the idea, too. That's great. I mean, I think that is everything that a founder needs, you know, is excitement and confidence.
\n\nMIKE: Well, and just the whole user interview experience has, like, made a lot of my other conversations sort of I've tried to frame parts of them as user interviews because I'm talking to a lot of, like, label folks now, and artists, merch people. And, you know, I ended up just sort of, like, asking them, I mean, yes, trying to explain the product and work on kind of partnership stuff, but a lot of it is really just geeking out with them. And just, like, hearing their thoughts about, like, what they love about merch because these are people that clearly think about this stuff all the time. So, it's definitely kind of, like, tuned my other conversations into trying to get unbiased feedback.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. Everything is a little user interview now.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, exactly.
\n\nLINDSEY: Get that angle in there. All right, so some early validation and excitement. That's really cool to hear. Any challenges or, you know, other kinds of learnings early on? Anything that's been invalidated?
\n\nMIKE: I don't know that we're there yet. [inaudible 24:02] Chris, I don't know. I'm happy to find that some things are invalidated, but I don't really feel...you know, some of the personas that we decided or maybe just one of the personas we decided to pursue, I think we're having a hard time having those user interviews kind of really bear fruit, but that's helpful, too, actually. I mean, it's like, okay, well, maybe that's not a group that we target.
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah. It's about, like [inaudible 24:24]. I encourage folks not to think about this like a 'no, not that,' and instead think of it as like a 'not yet.' And that's, I think, the dynamic here with a couple of the personas we were interested in. It's just been turned into kind of, like, a not yet for reasons that we very quickly figured out, but we'll get there. It's just a matter of figuring out we had some other personas take precedence because they're more sort of red, hot in a way, right? It's just easier to get in contact with these people, or it's, like, clear what they're going for or what they need from the market.
\n\nSo, you know, we have this whole list, and it was not clear at first who was going to kind of stand out. But we've kind of found some focus there, which means, invariably, that there's things that are falling out of the frame for now, and you're kind of de-prioritizing them. But it really is, like, a we'll get to that [laughs]. We'll eventually get to that.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. And part of the process, who's going to rise to the top right now?
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, exactly.
\n\nLINDSEY: Do you have anything you can show and tell with us today or not yet?
\n\nMIKE: So, Chris has been hard at work on all the physical side of this stuff and going back and forth with our manufacturing partner and all that good stuff. But we have a final version of the mixtape product.
\n\nLINDSEY: For when this gets pulled into the podcast, Mike's showing us a physical card.
\n\nCHRIS: It's a small card, and we call them Goodz. And it's printed on three-millimeter plywood using a UV printing process, super durable. And this is something you can put in your pocket. You're not going to wreck it. I think you could actually (Don't quote me on this.), but I think you can even, like, put it through a washing machine, and it would be fine. Embedded in this card is a chip that can be read by your phone, and that's pretty much what we're working with.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, so the idea is you just sort of tap this, and it'll take you to a streaming version of a playlist. And then Chris has also been making these adorable crates. And [crosstalk 26:10]
\n\nLINDSEY: The little crates I love.
\n\nMIKE: And we actually have some wooden ones, too, in the testing that's [crosstalk 26:15]
\n\nLINDSEY: And then the mixtapes get stored in the little crates [crosstalk 26:19]
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. So, you could have --
\n\nLINDSEY: Throw it on your desk.
\n\nCHRIS: Each crate can hold about, I think, 15 of these things. What's really cool about this product on the physical side is we are using a tried-and-true technology, which is NFC chips. These are things that make Apple Pay work, make Google Pay work. They are in your E-ZPass when you drive through a toll booth. This is stuff that's been around for years. So, we're just kind of leveraging this technology that's been around for so long in a new way.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, I think it's similar to kind of the evolution of QR codes, right? It's like they were sort of around forever, and then it was, like, COVID and restaurant menus kind of kicked those into mainstream. Like, NFC has been around for a long time. It's very tried and true. It's affordable. But I want to say Apple only turned it on by default, like, the NFC reader in the iPhone in the last, like, 18 to 24 months, right? Like, it started...like, it's been around for a while, but they're sort of slowly kind of...and now you just sort of see it everywhere. People are using it on the subways in New York to scan for tickets or for accessing stuff.
\n\nI was also just showing Chris has been prototyping with the ability to sort of keep these on a key ring. So, we have, like, a little chain hole on them. It is [inaudible 27:22] to sort of have this on your backpack or, you know, on a key ring, or something like that. And friends could kind of, like, come up to you and just, like, scan one that looks interesting.
\n\nCHRIS: And yeah, something that's awesome about this is you don't need an app. You don't need to download anything. As long as your NFC reader is on when you scan this, it will bring you to the music that it's linked to, which I think is awesome. So, I mean, my dream is to have these, like, hanging off of people's backpacks so I can, like, scan them in the subway or, you know, it's such, like, an easy thing to do. And it requires so little technical time on the user's end to be able to do it.
\n\nLINDSEY: Oh, we got a question here. "So, Moo used to offer NFC cards. What made you decide to do the thicker plywood model?"
\n\nCHRIS: Durability is really what it comes down to. We wanted something that felt like an object that you can have and treasure. Like, these have weight, you know, these feel like something, not just a piece of paper. This is something that you can have and [inaudible 28:22] your desk, and it's not going to fade in the sunlight. It's not going to disintegrate over time. This is something that's going to last.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, the cards would definitely, like, as I would sort of carry them around and show them to people and stuff, the cards would start, you know, breaking. It's like having a business card in your pocket, right? Eventually, it's going to kind of wear out. And plus, we had, like, the stickers were visible on the back of them. And we were, like, having the sticker just completely disappear inside the wood it just feels a little bit more like magic.
\n\nLINDSEY: Well, thanks for demoing there. I put you on the spot a little bit. But they are...I had seen them in the Slack, and they're very cool [laughs]. So, I had to ask if we could show them off a bit.
\n\nMIKE: Of course.
\n\nCHRIS: I think another thing to think about, too, is we've been talking a lot about the user experience. But if and when we get to the point of making these for artists, artists will be able to collect so much data off of the way that people buy and collect and use these things over time, which is something that we're really, really excited about. And also, you know, we're working on a way to make the link in the object updatable over time. So, artists will be able to change what a card points do to inform their users about the latest and greatest thing.
\n\nLINDSEY: Very cool. Jordyn, what's next on the programming agenda for Chris and Mike?
\n\nJORDYN: It's really sort of we're in this, like, iterative cycle. So, we're talking to folks. We're working on the website. The conversations we're having with people are informing how we're framing this first experiment with the mixtape, how we're marketing it, who we're marketing it to. I think next up is probably a Google Ad experiment to really see if we can piggyback on some stuff or at least figure out a new consumer product. It's so tough, right?
\n\nIt's also not a thing people are searching for. So, we have to come up with some experiments for how we get people to that website [laughs]. So, you know, Google Ads funnels is just something you kind of have to do because it's very interesting to figure out what people are responding to, what people are searching for. But we're going to have a bunch of other experiments as well and non-experiments. Outbound experiments: can we go to people? Can we get listed in a gift-buying guide for the holidays? Or, like, we don't know. There's a bunch of experiments we need to do around that, which is really just this iteration.
\n\nWe won't stop talking to users but, you know, everything we're hearing from them will inform where we go and how we talk to the folks in those places where we end up. And really, it's just about starting...once this is up and, you know, there's, like, an orderable thing, there's, like, a whole data cycle where we start to learn from the stuff we're testing; we actually have some real data for it, and we can start to tweak, iterate and change our strategy.
\n\nBut the bigger thing, also, is this bigger platform. So, the next thing really, the big next thing, is to sort of start to scope and create an architecture idea. What's it going to take to build the actual backend thing? And it's the thing that thoughtbot really [laughs] excels at, which is software. So, you know, that's the big next kind of project. Once the mixtape experiment is sort of out and in flight and we're getting data, we really need to turn our attention to the technical backend.
\n\nLINDSEY: Exciting. Another comment/question from Jeff, who maybe needs a user interview. "Love the crate more than the actual albums. Maybe offer collections of artists."
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, that's the plan.
\n\nCHRIS: Yeah, definitely. It's a good idea. Yeah, it's, I mean, and labels get to, especially, like, small indie labels get really excited about doing, like, crates worth of collections of different artists or, like, you know, digging through their back catalog, their subscription services. There's a lot of different angles for sure about that idea.
\n\nLINDSEY: [inaudible 31:55] Chris and Mike, going into this next section of the programming, for anyone watching right now, or watching the recording, or listening to the recording, any action items from them? You know, are you looking for any user interviews or have any survey or any destinations you'd like to send people yet?
\n\nCHRIS: Not quite yet, but soon, I would say. Well --
\n\nMIKE: I mean, [inaudible 32:19] plug the website, I mean, you know, I think we've got, like, an email to sign up from there, right? The URL is getthegoodz.com and I [crosstalk 32:27]
\n\nLINDSEY: Goodz with a Z.
\n\nMIKE: Goodz with a Z.
\n\nCHRIS: With Z.
\n\nMIKE: So yeah, if you want to go there, you can sign up. I think there's an email signup on there to learn more.
\n\nLINDSEY: Perfect. All right. getthegoodz.com email sign up. To stay up to date on Goodz and the incubator, you can follow along on the thoughtbot blog. You know, as always, send us any questions you might have, and we're happy to get to those. But otherwise, thanks for listening.
\n\nAnd thank you all — Jordyn, Chris, and Mike. Thanks so much for joining today and sharing and being open about your stories so far.
\n\nMIKE: Thank you.
\n\nCHRIS: Yeah, thank you, Lindsey.
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","summary":"Startup founders Mike Rosenthal and Chris Cerrito are participating in thoughtbot's eight-week incubator program. Mike, with a background in the music industry, and Chris, experienced in physical computing and exhibit development, are collaborating on a startup that creates physical objects linked to digital content, primarily in music. Their goal is to enhance the connection between tangible and digital experiences, starting with a product that resembles a mixtape, using NFC technology for easy access to digital playlists.\r\n\r\nThis project is unique within the thoughtbot incubator as it's the first pure consumer product and involves both physical and digital elements. The team is engaged in user interviews and market validation, with the aim of launching a physical product with a digital backend. They are exploring various marketing strategies for the product and are in the process of building its technical backend.","date_published":"2023-12-05T00:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/b8340d6f-ec76-417d-8a20-d257b4e03134.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":21449260,"duration_in_seconds":1546}]},{"id":"49dfece8-8f6a-4ea0-b849-0099a5cb14c6","title":"502: OKRs and Business Coaching with Evan Hammer","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/502","content_text":"Today's conversation revolves around the importance and challenges of goal setting within organizations. It highlights how identifying and articulating real problems can be transformative, turning abstract desires for growth into concrete plans for improvement. Host Victoria Guido and special guest Evan Hammer discuss the nuances of leadership and organizational self-awareness, emphasizing the need for honesty and a growth mindset when addressing weaknesses. They touch on Evan's role as an OKR Coach in fostering alignment, focus, and excitement around goals, particularly in small to mid-sized companies.\n\nEvan shares his enthusiasm for goal setting and believes his passion can inspire others. He points out the positive outcomes when employees engage with goals that address problems they care about. Victoria and Evan agree that success is not solely measured by hitting OKRs but also by engagement and alignment within the team. They discuss the ideal organizations for Evan's work, which include small to medium-sized companies seeking to improve focus and alignment, as well as start-up teams needing more straightforward goal statements and go-to-market strategies. Evan also recounts his experience as a Techstars mentor, noting that a common issue across companies is the lack of clear goals, and he emphasizes the power of focus as a lever for growth.\n\n\n\n\nFollow Evan Hammer on LinkedIn or X. Visit his website at evanhammer.com.\nFollow thoughtbot on X or LinkedIn.\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Evan Hammer, OKR and personal goals coach. Evan, thank you for joining us.\n\nEVAN: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. Me too. And I wanted to ask you first, before we dive into business, tell me a personal goal that you've achieved recently that you're most proud of.\n\nEVAN: I guess a couple of months ago, I did a 100-mile loop of Mount Rainier. So, it was a 10-day backpacking trip. My younger brother, I went with him, and it's the kind of thing he does more regularly. Yeah, it was something I was kind of excited to do but really unsure of, and worked super hard between the gear and the training and just, like, the mindset. But it was also just awesome being out in the woods for ten days.\n\nVICTORIA: I also love being out in the woods for long periods of time. I guess, like, how long did your brother plan this trip for? And how long were you involved before you decided to go?\n\nEVAN: You know, it was something he was planning to do since the spring. He won a lottery to be able to do it. And I was going back and forth for a few months. And I think it was just maybe in the end of June where I was like, okay, I'm doing this. I need to put together a gear list, figure out a training plan. I live in Fort Greene in Brooklyn. And it was a lot of, like, waking up early and going up and down the steps in Fort Greene Park, which is, like, you know, 6, 10 flights of steps, something like that outdoors --\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs]\n\nEVAN: With a heavy backpack on for two to three hours, like on weekends.\n\nVICTORIA: Oooh. Wow.\n\nEVAN: Yeah, it was one of those things I was like, you know, you don't know when you do something like this how it's going to go until you're there doing it or how your body is going to respond. So, it was a little bit of, like, trying to train as much as possible but also being aware that I just have to deal with whatever will happen on the trip.\n\nVICTORIA: I love that, at first, it sounds sort of, like, fun. Like, \"Oh, do you want to go on this trip with me?\" And you're like, \"Yeah, okay.\" And then you look at the training plan, and it's like, \"We'll wake up at 6:00 a.m. every day and walk up and down ten flights of stairs [laughs] with a heavy backpack on,\" you know, like, \"Oh okay, [laughs] a lot of prep work to have this trip.\" [laughs]\n\nEVAN: It's fun in that you're doing something amazing, and it's beautiful. And it was just one of the more beautiful places I've ever been. It was really interesting and meaningful to me to kind of be detached from everything that I normally do and just focus on being in the woods and hiking these mountains. But yeah, you don't know how it's going to go. So, it's like you're putting yourself in an extreme physical situation. I think that's anxiety-inducing, and it feels good and is healthy and protective to train for it.\n\nVICTORIA: I agree. Yeah, I mean, I totally relate to that. I'm a rock climber and hiker myself. And sometimes I spend all this time, you know, on gym memberships, climbing in the gym, running up and down hills. And then, I get all the way out to rock, and I'm about to start my climb, and I'm like, why am I doing this? [laughs] This is a lot of work to get to this point. But then it is all fun, and it's super worth it. And I always feel restored whenever I come back from being a long time in nature. It's really great. \n\nI think maybe to get towards, like, a metrics conversation that we talk about a lot in climbing is the type of fun something is. So, there's three types of fun levels. Have you heard this framework before, Evan?\n\nEVAN: I have not.\n\nVICTORIA: Okay, so there's three levels of fun. Level one fun is, like, you're having fun while you're doing it. We're, like, laughing and enjoying recording a podcast together. Like, oh my God, it's so much fun, super easy, not stressful. Maybe it was a little stressful for you, I don't know. [chuckles] It's a little stressful for me.\n\nLevel two fun is it's a little difficult while you're doing it, but you're still looking back on it and having fun, but you're never really in any kind of intense danger, right? Like, you're going on a backpacking trip. It's relatively within your health expectations, and the trail is walkable. You're not, like, going to fumble and fall down a cliff. It's level-two fun. So, you're mostly enjoying it. Like, it's kind of difficult, and there's some effort involved, but it's still fun. \n\nLevel three fun is when it's very dangerous, and you're really scared the whole time [laughs], and, like, you maybe, like, could have died. But looking back on it, it's fun. So, how would you rate your Mount Rainier trip?\n\nEVAN: It's funny because we actually...we didn't come up with the levels, but we spoke about how when you're hiking, often, in your head, you're just trying to figure out how much longer you have to hike as if the whole point was not to be hiking. And then you finish hiking for the day, and you're like, \"Oh, that was so great. I'm so looking forward to waking up tomorrow and hiking some more.\" \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah [chuckles], exactly.\n\nEVAN: That fits the level two fun pretty explicitly.\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. Yeah, it's a very, you know, I've found it to be pretty useful. And, you know, as I get older, I tend to try to avoid level three fun more often [laughs]. Like, I don't really need to be frightened [laughs]. I have enough stress in my life. I don't need to also endanger myself too aggressively. \n\nBut, you know, everyone has their own risk level as well, right? Like, someone else might think the type of climbing and hiking that I'm doing is level three fun, but, for me, it's more...and, like, there's other things like skateboarding and riding a bike where, for me, is level three. I'm scared and [laughs] -- \n\nEVAN: Right. And I think you also frame level three as, like, sort of physical safety. But, you know, people have different risk tolerances and classifications across the board. So, like, for me, I try to stay away from things that I would consider physically dangerous. But I'm very comfortable, like, taking financial or social risk, where I know other people have an inverted kind of spectrum where, like, social risk is, like [laughs], you know, is a terror to them when physical risk doesn't seem that scary to them, you know, so...\n\nVICTORIA: That's so interesting. And especially for me, I do a lot of networking. And I'm, of course, been really active in San Diego Startup Week this week. We're recording this in October. So, for some people, going to an event where there's going to be hundreds of people, you maybe have met some of them before, but you really don't have a buddy that you are coming to this event with. You're on your own. You're going to have to walk up to people, start conversations, figure out who is who, and, like, find your people. That's terrifying for a lot of people. And they're like, \"Absolutely not.\" [laughs]\n\nEVAN: Well, it's interesting how, like, level one and level three can be inverted. I went to a conference last fall by myself, and I actually had some voice issues. So, I couldn't talk for a little bit before this, so it was like...or even that well, during, you know, it was kind of an environment that I think a lot of people might be feeling like, oh, that's level three social experience. And I just remember how much fun I had there. Like, for me, it was totally a level one thing. But, you know, there's definitely moments on this hike where I was like, oh, this is level three. This feels physically scary, even though most of the time it wasn't. \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, no, I think it's helpful. So, maybe that helps us segue a little bit into telling me more about what you do and how you came to do what you do. What's your background?\n\nEVAN: What do I do? I'll give you, like, a list of the things that I do. I will say I help people focus and maybe communicate better. You know, the list is, like, I am an OKR coach, right? That's objectives and key results, coaching business leaders on how to set goals and get everybody aligned towards the same goals. I do personal goals coaching, and that's, like, helping individual people set goals that are meaningful to them and live more intentionally. I'm a Techstars mentor, where I mentor companies. And I also do, like, a fractional head of product role. \n\nAnd it's a little all over the place. I mean, it's something that, obviously, a lot of that is, like, business coaching but really focused around focus and how you can use goal setting to accelerate growth for a business or an organization or for yourself personally.\n\nVICTORIA: How did it get started? What led you to be the coach that you are today?\n\nEVAN: Yeah, you know, I get asked this question. And I feel like there's a story about how I kind of tested goal setting. I was a founder. I went to Techstars in, like, 2013. And I was running the company. So, I had to, like, mess around with goal setting and then ended up being at Codecademy and Vimeo. They were doing OKRs. And there were certain things I liked and certain things I didn't. And there was, like, this progression. \n\nBut I think the truth is that I just really like systems and organizing things, and I think I've always been like that. And OKRs are a way of taking something that's really messy, which is, like, a group of people running together in some direction and saying, \"Oh, well, what if we come up with, like, some agreed plan here, and some rules, and some guidance? And we can split this out between what, like, the company and the organization is doing versus what individual people are doing or what the department's doing.\"\n\nI think I just find that process comforting. It's just, like, gleeful for me to be working with people on how they're going to focus and organize themselves, and then also how they're going to communicate that focus to each other, which I think is, like, a key part of people staying on the same page.\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And I really want to dig into some examples of OKRs and maybe even get some free OKR coaching for myself on this episode. But, you know, but with your background, I wanted to start with looking at the founder experience versus being someone in a larger organization. How do you bring in that context of where you are in your journey into how you think about setting goals for an individual?\n\nEVAN: I think it's a hard question for me because my viewpoint on how goal setting and strategy and achievement in organizations has changed over this whole time, right? So, I was a founder, then at these larger organizations. I think I've tried to synthesize some, like, through line rather than difference between them. So, let me start there. \n\nI think when you look at a founder, or a founding team, or a larger organization, the key thing to figure out is where you're going and coming up with really clear goals. And then, depending on the size of the organization, there's different tactics you can use, right? So, if you're a founder, it might be just sitting down with your co-founders once a week, having a clear Northstar metric, and having a clear goal, and then everybody's running, and that works. \n\nZoom to a 100-person company, which is, like, I probably focus on, like, 20 to 100-person companies. And now you have a lot of confusion between departments because you have people who are working on very different parts of the business. So, I think OKRs, at that point, are really great because it is this, like...and we will talk more about OKRs. But it's this cascading goal-setting technique where you have company goals that everybody understands and agrees to, and then each department is carving out how they're going to support that, which is, like, less necessary for a small company. \n\nBut I still think the key thing is to know what you want, what your biggest problem is in getting there, and what your approach is going to be in overcoming that problem, which is, you know, is, like, I guess, strategy 101.\n\nVICTORIA: I like that. And it's funny; it makes me think of a tarot card layout. That's a situation I'll come and approach. Anyways, I wanted to get, like, down to the basics. I think we said OKRs earlier, but what is an OKR, if you can define that?\n\nEVAN: Yeah, so objectives and key results. An objective is any goal you have, so that can be launch a feature, revamp your sales process, or achieve some sort of milestone or some capability, right? So, often, that's, like, build a new department, or come up not just with a specific feature but a new offering, like launch a whole product line. Anything that's important to you can be a goal. It should be clear and inspiring. And that's the objective piece.\n\nKey results answer the question: how will you know if you're successful in reaching that goal? That might be if you're building a new department, a certain number of hires. If you're launching a feature or want to have a new offering, that might be some KPI for the product team, like, you know, onboarding rates or retention rates.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, and let's maybe even go into a real example: myself, I'm a managing director here at thoughtbot. People who aren't familiar with thoughtbot...I'm sure everyone listening has [laughs] familiarity with what we do as a product and business consultancy. And our team at Mission Control, the goal was to innovate on our approach to how we were deploying and managing software. \n\nSo, over 20 years, the trends and modernization of infrastructure was something we wanted to be a part of, and we wanted to enable and accelerate not just our own development teams but our clients' teams in deploying software securely and efficiently and meeting everything that we need to do. Like, it's an incredibly complex environment. And there's lots of choices to make. So, that's, like, the big vision of what we're trying to do at thoughtbot. It's a new service. It's touching not only our internal processes but also, like, the growth of our business overall. \n\nSo, what I've done as a managing director I talk with my team. I work with the CTO of thoughtbot, Joe Ferris. He's my acting director [chuckles] on identifying what is our overall approach? What's our strategy? So, one of the things we do at thoughtbot, one of our strategies, is to put content out there. So, we want to build stuff that works for us, and we want to share and talk about it. \n\nAnd we believe that by putting good stuff out there, good stuff will come back to us [laughs]. So, really just increasing the amount of blog posts, increasing the amount of open-source contributions and [inaudible 13:03] people we talk to and hear about what their problems are. We think that that will be an indicator for us of whether or not we're being successful in growing this business. So, that's just, like, one small strategy, but I've got five other ones if you want to talk about them.\n\nEVAN: Yeah, I mean, you highlighted a large goal that you have, and then some of the, like, sub-objectives in reaching that goal. And you could imagine key results being metrics along number of blog posts, audience size, number of readers, engagement. I mean, all those have different values, depending on what your goals are.\n\nVICTORIA: Exactly right. Like, there's the overall leading indicators we have of, like, whether or not we're successful as a business [laughs], which is, like, revenue, and, like, margins of profit, which really aren't going to change. And as a company, we don't change our policies or things that often to where those costs are ultimately going to change. It's all about, like, are we bringing in new business? Are we retaining the clients we have? And are we able to sustain, you know, work that centers around this problem area? \n\nSo, that kind of, like, makes our goal tracking, like, the numbers month to month somewhat easy. Although those individual strategies and how they all line up to meet, that is something I think I'm curious to hear about how you facilitate those discussions with teams. How would you, like, begin an engagement with a team where you have a company like thoughtbot [laughs]? How are you going to coach us to get better at our goals?\n\nEVAN: Well, one thing I do is I pull apart KPIs, Key Performance Indicators, from OKRs, which you actually implied. KPIs are metrics you use to judge the health of your business, when OKRs are the goals that are going to transform your business. They fit well together. But, you know, for a founding team, they're still trying to figure out, well, how do we actually measure if this is going well? What does that mean? And I have a whole technique for that. \n\nBut for a larger company, something like thoughtbot, you probably have pretty clear KPIs for the business and for each department. And you can look each month to make sure that those are in a healthy band or each week. And then, when you go to set goals, one of the things you can say is, \"Hey, what's not working well? Why are the KPIs not where they should be?\" And there's other ways of coming up with good goals, but I do think that's one of the starting points for goal setting. \n\nAnother one, and I'm curious if you all have this here, is, like, a sense of what's holding back your growth. So, if you have a clear goal of growing your business year over year; usually, people in different departments have a sense of what challenges they're facing in executing towards those growth goals. And, fundamentally, there's usually some sort of competitive or market conditions or customer conditions that are concerning to you as a business in terms of where you're currently at. So, do you all have that type of, I guess, angle on thoughtbot's growth at all?\n\nVICTORIA: You know, for me, it's my first year as managing director. And experiencing how thoughtbot does planning, I appreciated our approach this year was to ask each managing director more like a retro style, like, \"What should we do more of? What do we like doing? What didn't really work, and what should we do less of? And what other things do we want to start doing?\"\n\nSo, it's kind of similar to start, stop, continue but, you know, just really reflecting on, like, what's working? What should we do more of? What doesn't work, and we should just stop [laughs], or change, or figure out how to improve? And then, what should we start doing? And what kind of new behaviors do we need to practice and learn to build a better system? \n\nWhich I think when you talk about what's holding people back, I think it's difficult to understand in a complex organization of 100 people how all these departments work together and how they contribute and support teams. So, I'm curious, from your experience, and you like to come in and organize and get focused, so if you have that level of complexity in an organization, how do you start to get people organized and understanding how they all work together and what's working and what's not?\n\nEVAN: Yeah, that's a good question. I might punt that to the second half of my answer here and answer an earlier question [inaudible 17:08] how we get started. Because I think that actually comes up as, like, the second piece. I think the first piece is, like, when I start with an organization, I usually sit down with the CEO. Maybe there's a founding team. Maybe it's a leadership team. \n\nAnd I try to understand their vision for where the company's going and, one, how clear and actionable it is. So, does it feel like, oh, I get exactly how they're going from point A to point B to point C, or is it a little bit murkier? And trying to nail that down. And sometimes I do, like, a strategy workshop around that. \n\nBut the next piece is understanding if they have a clear plan for the next quarter, next year. When I come into companies, I'm doing OKRs quarterly. So, even if they don't have a clear strategy, we still need to set goals for the next quarter. I then have them just kind of draft goals with not that much guidance here. I might do some sort of training so everybody, like, understands what OKRs are. And then, you know, I do...and this is a common thing, I think, like, my background is in product, is trying to understand the root cause of things. \n\nSo, usually, there's some goal that I can ask. And, usually, there's a goal that's, like, something that seems very strategic, like a new offering, or changing how the business is organized, or it's very growth revenue-oriented. Those are, like, the two types of goals that people usually come up with. \n\nSo, there's a lot of just, like, asking why this is valuable, and kind of going up the ladder, down the ladder asking why it's valuable, and understanding what their root motivation is for doing this. And then going the other direction and saying, \"Oh, if we did this, then what would happen?\" And trying to just understand how they're thinking of this goal and how it fits in a longer chain of events. \n\nAnd, usually, through that process, we shift the focus point. So, it's rare that somebody comes up with, like, exactly the right goal. I think when they start understanding what would the effect be of that goal, sometimes one of those things is the actual goal. Or if there's a root cause, it doesn't always mean that we go to the root cause, right? \n\nIf somebody wants to, like, fix their onboarding, and that's really, like, their whole focus point, you know, when you say, \"Why?\" and they talk about helping a certain customer get more focused. And then you may say, \"Well, why?\" And they say, \"Oh, well, you know, we have this revenue model that involves helping them, and we make money.\" And \"Why?\" \"So we can grow our business at a certain clip.\" And that's the arc that we build. \n\nThat doesn't mean we go to, oh, well, you're trying to make more money faster. That might not be really what the focus should be for the quarter. So, we have to always start just trying to, like, dial in with what the right angle is. That's both...I think you want to choose the thing that's the most fundamental to the business that still feels attainable and focusable, if that's a word, in the short term, right? That's like, oh, this is a good target for a quarter or a year, if you're doing it on an annual basis. \n\nSo, that's, like, how I usually get started with folks, which, you know, depending on how much thought there is around strategy, like, it goes in different ways. Sometimes, the company has a very, like, clear strategy, and then everything I said works pretty smoothly. And you get to a goal very quickly that you kind of orient the company around. \n\nIf the strategy is either not explicit or maybe the CEO has a different vision for it than, you know, CTO or the head of sales, then there's more negotiating between folks and getting on the same page. And I think that's a whole, like, can of worms that we can dive into, but that's, like, a different type of exploration.\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, I love all that. I have so many follow-up things I want to ask. Just to play it back a little bit, too, I really resonated with some of what you're saying around it's kind of better to draft it; just write it. Like, the act of planning is more valuable than the plan itself. Like, get as close as you can as fast as you can [laughs]. That makes sense. Like, something that feels, like, good enough and, like, kind of go with it and, like, see how it goes. \n\nYou know, like, I think that's a mindset that can be difficult to implement in an organization, especially if there's been, like, past trauma with, like, not meeting your goals. And how does that flow down to the organization? \n\nEVAN: That's a hard thing. \n\nVICTORIA: And it makes me think of, like, what you started with, like, talking about getting to the root of what's happening. Like, what are the motivations of individual people? Like, what's happened in the past? Like, trying to take an approach that's...I prefer blame-aware to blameless. You can't get away from the tendency to blame people. So, you just have to accept that that happens and kind of move on and, like, quickly go past it [laughs] and just, like, really get to, like, what are the facts? What does the data say about this organization? So, anyways, I think that that was where I went to. I think --\n\nEVAN: One thing I did...I started with a new company; I guess, two or three quarters ago around the OKR coaching. And, you know, I think there was this expectation. We've been doing OKRs. There's issues we need you to come in and solve and fix everything. And the tone I tried to set was, hey, I'm not here to set great goals for you. You're going to set the best goals you can. And I'm here to help support that process and teach you a lot about goal setting. \n\nAnd we're going to do this every quarter. And after two or three quarters, things are going to start becoming a lot easier. People are going to communicate better. Everybody's going to be on the same page. And it's going to feel like, oh, we're getting really good at goal setting. \n\nAnd then, like, I try to set that tone when I start working with the CEO of, like, the point here is to make your whole leadership team good at goal setting so that you have this skill as an organization, rather than set just the right goals with the right language in the right way right now, right? We want to timebox everything. So, we're moving forward using this tool to make progress throughout the quarter, and then each quarter, revisiting it and getting better. \n\nMID-ROLL AD:\n\nAre you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you’re tight on time and investment, which is why we’ve created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product’s next steps.\n\nOver four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success.\n\nFind out how we can help you move the needle at tbot.io/entrepreneurs.\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm curious if there's anything else when you're evaluating whether or not someone might be a good fit for the work that you want to do with them. Are there, like, some red flag, green flag energy that you check for with executives when you're deciding whether or not to work with them?\n\nEVAN: Yeah, there are two flags that come up; one is, are they clear with what they're saying? I think a lot of leaders want to sound good. So, that doesn't mean that they need to be clear right off the bat. But in a conversation where someone says, \"This is our vision,\" and you say, \"Hey, I don't understand X, Y, and Z,\" or \"This part didn't make sense to me. Can we dive into it?\" \n\nAnd yeah, if someone through a conversation can be really clear about what's important to the company and where they're going, I think that's, like, key. Because if someone's talking around issues all the time and when you kind of bring up things they don't really address it, it's very hard to make any progress. It's like, you know, the lack of specificity ends up being a defense towards maybe dealing with some of the difficult conversations.\n\nBut, like, at the end of the day, like, one of the major things that happens with goal setting that makes it, I think, feel exciting to people when it does—it always feels exciting to me [laughs]—when it feels exciting to other people is that they say, for the first time, \"Oh, this is actually the thing holding us back. This is the problem. Yeah, we want to grow our business.\" \n\nBut when you say, \"Well, what are all the things you do to grow your business?\" All of a sudden, you start talking through things, and someone says, \"Hey, this is the real problem. This is why we're struggling to grow our business.\" And, you know, that transforms the conversation. People who are avoiding being specific, that can be really hard. That's one thing. \n\nAnd the other thing is around responding to feedback. And, you know, you can just...and this is a common interview question, right? You can ask somebody, \"What do you think the weaknesses of your organization are?\" And if somebody doesn't know, but they're, like, open to it, that's, I think, totally fine. But if it seems like they're constantly kind of, like, filibustering the answer there, it's like, hey, the main thing you're bringing me on to do is to make sure that you communicate the weaknesses of your organization to everybody else because that's what goals are about. They're about overcoming the weaknesses of your organization. \n\nSo, those are two areas. And they also speak to, like, I think, rapport with the people that I'll be working with.\n\nVICTORIA: I agree. And I like that, you know, you're asking really for people, are you going to be honest about what's happening in your organization? Are you honest with yourself about where you're not doing well? And I think I also pay attention to the language people use to describe those problems. And are they really speaking with a growth mindset or a fixed mindset? Because that's a really hard thing to change [laughs]. Naturally, I think people who are good leaders and run successful companies have a growth mindset. So, I think that's usually there. But that would be some yellow-flag stuff for me.\n\nEVAN: You know, when people are looking to hire an OKR coach, they usually already are looking for improvement. And it's not like they're hiring a product manager, right? You have to be saying to yourself, hey, I believe that if we did better around goals, our company would grow better. We'd have better focus. We'd have better alignment. Like, there's already a belief that people have that is usually pretty self-aware of the limits of both the people there and the organization where it's at today, and they're looking for help. \n\nSo, I think I come across what you brought up more in individual people on a leadership team that, like, feel more coachable or less coachable depending on how interested they are around expanding how they think about things and growing. And, you know, obviously, [inaudible 27:01] lots of opinions that are wrong, and I love the disagreement that comes up there. But you want to, you know, you want to be speaking to people that are generally open to learning through a conversational process.\n\nVICTORIA: Right. Yeah, I think it's like a confirming thing. Like, if they're reaching out to a goals coach, they probably do have a growth mindset. And if the top leadership does, then that means that there's an opportunity for other people to come along as well. So, I like opening it up that way and getting people to get specific about their goals as well. I think that's a real challenge. Like, it's either too vague or too specific, not inspiring enough. \n\nSome people still bring up SMART goals with me. I like to prefer HARD goals, but you probably need those. And I'm curious if you're familiar with those acronyms. I can spell them out. And I'm sure you've heard of both of these [laughs]. A lot of people are familiar with the SMART goals and the specific, measurable, actionable. I forget what the Rs and Ts are. \n\nBut then HARD goals are heartfelt and more around, like, the big vision. And it's something that you want to get people excited about, which is something that you said earlier. Like, how do you get people excited? And some people would think of a corporate goal-setting event as a level three fun [laughter]. So, how do you make it more like a two or a one?\n\nEVAN: I don't know, a lot of what I hope I offer to folks...and I've gotten good feedback here is that I enjoy goal setting a lot. So, talking through all these problems, talking through challenges, doing workshops, having these conversations. Like, whenever I'm doing that, it's my favorite thing to be doing. So, I think, hopefully, some of my joy just rubs off on the people around me. Because I do think talking to somebody who's excited about what you're talking about is helpful. \n\nThe other thing is, usually, at a decently small company, under 100 people, I'm working with the CEO and the leadership team; you know, people are there because they care about the company. They care about the mission of the company. They care about the people in the company, and they care about the growth of the company. \n\nSo, I get why goal setting has, I think, can have a bad rap. But if you're fundamentally solving problems that people care about, there should be some, like, glee that comes in when people say, like, \"Oh, yeah, I thought this was going to be about, like, how do we grow more? And that felt very generic to me.\" And it turns out when we actually think about how we grow more, and we talk through what's holding back our growth and what we can do to overcome that, and we have the top few ideas that we've all come up with, usually, those feel really relieving to people.\n\nAnd there's a company I'm working with now that I think is struggling to shift their target market a bit because...and there's awareness that the target market needs to shift, but there isn't so much knowledge around the new target market. There's a lot more knowledge around the old target market. And so, we're doing a bunch of research and talking to folks. \n\nAnd I know once we're able to say, \"For this target market, we need to do X,\" there is going to be, like, a huge amount of excitement and relief at the organization because people will feel like, oh, we've crossed that bridge, that bridge that we were kind of in the middle of crossing and didn't really know where the other side was. We now can see that other side, and we're going there. So yeah, I think there can be a lot of excitement around this stuff when it's real, and it's important work that you're doing.\n\nVICTORIA: Right. Like, maybe there's a good factor of, like, how do you measure if what you've done with a company is successful? Is there a glee scale that you [laughs] use to evaluate?\n\nEVAN: You know, for me, it's still probably more subjective than I want it to be. You know, I'd love it to be like, what percentage of people's OKRs did I [laughs] hit each quarter? And when I work with them, it gets better. But I think that's, like, a pretty short-sighted view in terms of my role. So, you know, I'm looking for people who were maybe disengaged to be more engaged, people who didn't see the value of OKRs to see and be able to articulate how their daily work is different because of the OKRs we set. \n\nYeah, and obviously, there's excitement when we're solving real problems. And we're changing the problems each quarter, and people are seeing growth increase. You know, like, all that stuff, I guess there's, like, a tangible excitement with. But I hope folks can, like, just connect the dots between the work, which can be tedious work around goal setting and negotiating with people. And often, it pulls you out of other day-to-day work that you're doing, especially for a small company, with the excitement towards the end of the quarter of reaching these goals and moving on to the next challenge.\n\nVICTORIA: I think that's great. I think that was a perfect answer. It's kind of not always easy to know what [laughs]...like, sometimes there's a sense of it, like, you have a feeling, and sometimes you can get data to back that up. And other times, you know you're doing the right thing by the people's faces around you at the end of the workshop [laughs]. So, I think that's great. And so, maybe my final question would be is, like, what would be the ideal organization that you would want to work with? Like, who's your ideal customer right now?\n\nEVAN: Yeah, I guess I have two ideal customers based on these, like, two things that I'm doing. In terms of the OKR coaching, I usually look for CEO or founding team of a company that's now, like, 20-plus people who's saying, \"Oh, we have these departments,\" or \"We have this leadership team. And we need to really get all on the same page at the beginning of the quarter because then everybody's going to consistently be talking to each other but has other people that they need to organize.\" That's definitely for the OKR coaching where, like, 20 to 30 people is where that starts. That probably goes up to 100 in terms of where I focus.\n\nFor the other work I do as a Techstars mentor and the coaching I do through that, that's really for founding teams. And that's more focused on how do you take your vision and make that a clear goal statement, which is around, like, behavior change, usually, in a certain population you're targeting? How do you turn that into a go-to-market plan? How do you turn that into a product roadmap? So, for that, that's just much smaller teams. \n\nI actually think that work often needs to be done at larger organizations, too. That's, like, a common thing that comes up. And that can bleed into strategy at large organizations. But yeah, I know that's probably a pretty broad bucket, but groups of people that believe that focus is a key lever towards faster growth.\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you for that. And I guess I said that was my final question, but I'll add two more questions. Can you share an anecdote from being a mentor at Techstars that you think will be interesting for our audience?\n\nEVAN: I think I was struck the first time I did the mentoring. They do, like, a Mentor Madness. So, it's like, you know, six companies in a row, and every company they all have different challenges. But a lot of them, it's, like, helping them articulate what they're doing a little bit more clearly. And often, there's a question around sales and growth and maybe fundraising. So, there's just, like, a focus in that direction. And I found that every company, even though they had kind of different questions, I was giving the same answer to, which was, I don't think your goal is clear to you or to me. \n\nAnd so, there's this framework that I would use with each company that there was, like, this aha moment. And I picked this up from a person named Matt Wallaert. It was a book, \"Start at the End.\" It's called a behavioral statement. And it's when population wants to motivation, and they have limitations, they do behavior as measured by data. And the kind of conceptual version is, oh, you're trying to get some group of people to change their behavior. And that's only going to happen if you can tap into a motivation that happens to them as frequently as the behavior you want to change. So, it's like a formalization of that. \n\nAnd each group, I'd like bring up the statement; we work on filling it quickly. And there was just, like, a clarity that would develop around what they were doing and how to orient themselves both on the growth and marketing side and on the product development side. I guess it just struck me how much that little framing was transformative to [laughs] accelerating both focus and alignment but, more importantly, like, getting somewhere that they wanted to get to. \n\nVICTORIA: It sounds almost like building a mental model of what you're trying to do [laughs], right? Like, it was a mental model that you referenced in your mind that helps you make decisions every single day. So, I really appreciate that. And we are about out of time. So, let me ask you, is there anything else that you would like to promote today?\n\nEVAN: Sure. Looking for a couple more OKR coaching clients for the new year, and just happy to chat with anybody who has questions around OKRs or goal setting for their organization. \n\nI also do personal goals coaching, which is a little different from the OKR coaching that I help individual people with their goals. But it's also similar. It's a lot of like...it's a lot more, like, reflection, and getting to know oneself, and coming up with goals that are really meaningful. \n\nAnd then the other half of, like, I think you alluded to this earlier around systems. Like, how do you take a goal that's important to you and actually act every day in ways that move you towards that goal? So yeah, interested in talking to people about both of those. I do some workshops as well, so people can reach out to me at evan@evanhammer.com. I can also put anybody on my mailing list. I do some workshops around both those things.\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Evan, for joining us today. \n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. \n\nThank you for listening. See you next time.\n\nAD:\n\nDid you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.\n\nMore info on our website at tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.Special Guest: Evan Hammer.Sponsored By:thoughtbot: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you’re tight on time and investment, which is why we’ve created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product’s next steps.\r\n\r\nOver four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success.\r\n\r\nFind out how we can help you move the needle at: tbot.io/entrepreneurs","content_html":"Today's conversation revolves around the importance and challenges of goal setting within organizations. It highlights how identifying and articulating real problems can be transformative, turning abstract desires for growth into concrete plans for improvement. Host Victoria Guido and special guest Evan Hammer discuss the nuances of leadership and organizational self-awareness, emphasizing the need for honesty and a growth mindset when addressing weaknesses. They touch on Evan's role as an OKR Coach in fostering alignment, focus, and excitement around goals, particularly in small to mid-sized companies.
\n\nEvan shares his enthusiasm for goal setting and believes his passion can inspire others. He points out the positive outcomes when employees engage with goals that address problems they care about. Victoria and Evan agree that success is not solely measured by hitting OKRs but also by engagement and alignment within the team. They discuss the ideal organizations for Evan's work, which include small to medium-sized companies seeking to improve focus and alignment, as well as start-up teams needing more straightforward goal statements and go-to-market strategies. Evan also recounts his experience as a Techstars mentor, noting that a common issue across companies is the lack of clear goals, and he emphasizes the power of focus as a lever for growth.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Evan Hammer, OKR and personal goals coach. Evan, thank you for joining us.
\n\nEVAN: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. Me too. And I wanted to ask you first, before we dive into business, tell me a personal goal that you've achieved recently that you're most proud of.
\n\nEVAN: I guess a couple of months ago, I did a 100-mile loop of Mount Rainier. So, it was a 10-day backpacking trip. My younger brother, I went with him, and it's the kind of thing he does more regularly. Yeah, it was something I was kind of excited to do but really unsure of, and worked super hard between the gear and the training and just, like, the mindset. But it was also just awesome being out in the woods for ten days.
\n\nVICTORIA: I also love being out in the woods for long periods of time. I guess, like, how long did your brother plan this trip for? And how long were you involved before you decided to go?
\n\nEVAN: You know, it was something he was planning to do since the spring. He won a lottery to be able to do it. And I was going back and forth for a few months. And I think it was just maybe in the end of June where I was like, okay, I'm doing this. I need to put together a gear list, figure out a training plan. I live in Fort Greene in Brooklyn. And it was a lot of, like, waking up early and going up and down the steps in Fort Greene Park, which is, like, you know, 6, 10 flights of steps, something like that outdoors --
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs]
\n\nEVAN: With a heavy backpack on for two to three hours, like on weekends.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oooh. Wow.
\n\nEVAN: Yeah, it was one of those things I was like, you know, you don't know when you do something like this how it's going to go until you're there doing it or how your body is going to respond. So, it was a little bit of, like, trying to train as much as possible but also being aware that I just have to deal with whatever will happen on the trip.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that, at first, it sounds sort of, like, fun. Like, "Oh, do you want to go on this trip with me?" And you're like, "Yeah, okay." And then you look at the training plan, and it's like, "We'll wake up at 6:00 a.m. every day and walk up and down ten flights of stairs [laughs] with a heavy backpack on," you know, like, "Oh okay, [laughs] a lot of prep work to have this trip." [laughs]
\n\nEVAN: It's fun in that you're doing something amazing, and it's beautiful. And it was just one of the more beautiful places I've ever been. It was really interesting and meaningful to me to kind of be detached from everything that I normally do and just focus on being in the woods and hiking these mountains. But yeah, you don't know how it's going to go. So, it's like you're putting yourself in an extreme physical situation. I think that's anxiety-inducing, and it feels good and is healthy and protective to train for it.
\n\nVICTORIA: I agree. Yeah, I mean, I totally relate to that. I'm a rock climber and hiker myself. And sometimes I spend all this time, you know, on gym memberships, climbing in the gym, running up and down hills. And then, I get all the way out to rock, and I'm about to start my climb, and I'm like, why am I doing this? [laughs] This is a lot of work to get to this point. But then it is all fun, and it's super worth it. And I always feel restored whenever I come back from being a long time in nature. It's really great.
\n\nI think maybe to get towards, like, a metrics conversation that we talk about a lot in climbing is the type of fun something is. So, there's three types of fun levels. Have you heard this framework before, Evan?
\n\nEVAN: I have not.
\n\nVICTORIA: Okay, so there's three levels of fun. Level one fun is, like, you're having fun while you're doing it. We're, like, laughing and enjoying recording a podcast together. Like, oh my God, it's so much fun, super easy, not stressful. Maybe it was a little stressful for you, I don't know. [chuckles] It's a little stressful for me.
\n\nLevel two fun is it's a little difficult while you're doing it, but you're still looking back on it and having fun, but you're never really in any kind of intense danger, right? Like, you're going on a backpacking trip. It's relatively within your health expectations, and the trail is walkable. You're not, like, going to fumble and fall down a cliff. It's level-two fun. So, you're mostly enjoying it. Like, it's kind of difficult, and there's some effort involved, but it's still fun.
\n\nLevel three fun is when it's very dangerous, and you're really scared the whole time [laughs], and, like, you maybe, like, could have died. But looking back on it, it's fun. So, how would you rate your Mount Rainier trip?
\n\nEVAN: It's funny because we actually...we didn't come up with the levels, but we spoke about how when you're hiking, often, in your head, you're just trying to figure out how much longer you have to hike as if the whole point was not to be hiking. And then you finish hiking for the day, and you're like, "Oh, that was so great. I'm so looking forward to waking up tomorrow and hiking some more."
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah [chuckles], exactly.
\n\nEVAN: That fits the level two fun pretty explicitly.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. Yeah, it's a very, you know, I've found it to be pretty useful. And, you know, as I get older, I tend to try to avoid level three fun more often [laughs]. Like, I don't really need to be frightened [laughs]. I have enough stress in my life. I don't need to also endanger myself too aggressively.
\n\nBut, you know, everyone has their own risk level as well, right? Like, someone else might think the type of climbing and hiking that I'm doing is level three fun, but, for me, it's more...and, like, there's other things like skateboarding and riding a bike where, for me, is level three. I'm scared and [laughs] --
\n\nEVAN: Right. And I think you also frame level three as, like, sort of physical safety. But, you know, people have different risk tolerances and classifications across the board. So, like, for me, I try to stay away from things that I would consider physically dangerous. But I'm very comfortable, like, taking financial or social risk, where I know other people have an inverted kind of spectrum where, like, social risk is, like [laughs], you know, is a terror to them when physical risk doesn't seem that scary to them, you know, so...
\n\nVICTORIA: That's so interesting. And especially for me, I do a lot of networking. And I'm, of course, been really active in San Diego Startup Week this week. We're recording this in October. So, for some people, going to an event where there's going to be hundreds of people, you maybe have met some of them before, but you really don't have a buddy that you are coming to this event with. You're on your own. You're going to have to walk up to people, start conversations, figure out who is who, and, like, find your people. That's terrifying for a lot of people. And they're like, "Absolutely not." [laughs]
\n\nEVAN: Well, it's interesting how, like, level one and level three can be inverted. I went to a conference last fall by myself, and I actually had some voice issues. So, I couldn't talk for a little bit before this, so it was like...or even that well, during, you know, it was kind of an environment that I think a lot of people might be feeling like, oh, that's level three social experience. And I just remember how much fun I had there. Like, for me, it was totally a level one thing. But, you know, there's definitely moments on this hike where I was like, oh, this is level three. This feels physically scary, even though most of the time it wasn't.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, no, I think it's helpful. So, maybe that helps us segue a little bit into telling me more about what you do and how you came to do what you do. What's your background?
\n\nEVAN: What do I do? I'll give you, like, a list of the things that I do. I will say I help people focus and maybe communicate better. You know, the list is, like, I am an OKR coach, right? That's objectives and key results, coaching business leaders on how to set goals and get everybody aligned towards the same goals. I do personal goals coaching, and that's, like, helping individual people set goals that are meaningful to them and live more intentionally. I'm a Techstars mentor, where I mentor companies. And I also do, like, a fractional head of product role.
\n\nAnd it's a little all over the place. I mean, it's something that, obviously, a lot of that is, like, business coaching but really focused around focus and how you can use goal setting to accelerate growth for a business or an organization or for yourself personally.
\n\nVICTORIA: How did it get started? What led you to be the coach that you are today?
\n\nEVAN: Yeah, you know, I get asked this question. And I feel like there's a story about how I kind of tested goal setting. I was a founder. I went to Techstars in, like, 2013. And I was running the company. So, I had to, like, mess around with goal setting and then ended up being at Codecademy and Vimeo. They were doing OKRs. And there were certain things I liked and certain things I didn't. And there was, like, this progression.
\n\nBut I think the truth is that I just really like systems and organizing things, and I think I've always been like that. And OKRs are a way of taking something that's really messy, which is, like, a group of people running together in some direction and saying, "Oh, well, what if we come up with, like, some agreed plan here, and some rules, and some guidance? And we can split this out between what, like, the company and the organization is doing versus what individual people are doing or what the department's doing."
\n\nI think I just find that process comforting. It's just, like, gleeful for me to be working with people on how they're going to focus and organize themselves, and then also how they're going to communicate that focus to each other, which I think is, like, a key part of people staying on the same page.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And I really want to dig into some examples of OKRs and maybe even get some free OKR coaching for myself on this episode. But, you know, but with your background, I wanted to start with looking at the founder experience versus being someone in a larger organization. How do you bring in that context of where you are in your journey into how you think about setting goals for an individual?
\n\nEVAN: I think it's a hard question for me because my viewpoint on how goal setting and strategy and achievement in organizations has changed over this whole time, right? So, I was a founder, then at these larger organizations. I think I've tried to synthesize some, like, through line rather than difference between them. So, let me start there.
\n\nI think when you look at a founder, or a founding team, or a larger organization, the key thing to figure out is where you're going and coming up with really clear goals. And then, depending on the size of the organization, there's different tactics you can use, right? So, if you're a founder, it might be just sitting down with your co-founders once a week, having a clear Northstar metric, and having a clear goal, and then everybody's running, and that works.
\n\nZoom to a 100-person company, which is, like, I probably focus on, like, 20 to 100-person companies. And now you have a lot of confusion between departments because you have people who are working on very different parts of the business. So, I think OKRs, at that point, are really great because it is this, like...and we will talk more about OKRs. But it's this cascading goal-setting technique where you have company goals that everybody understands and agrees to, and then each department is carving out how they're going to support that, which is, like, less necessary for a small company.
\n\nBut I still think the key thing is to know what you want, what your biggest problem is in getting there, and what your approach is going to be in overcoming that problem, which is, you know, is, like, I guess, strategy 101.
\n\nVICTORIA: I like that. And it's funny; it makes me think of a tarot card layout. That's a situation I'll come and approach. Anyways, I wanted to get, like, down to the basics. I think we said OKRs earlier, but what is an OKR, if you can define that?
\n\nEVAN: Yeah, so objectives and key results. An objective is any goal you have, so that can be launch a feature, revamp your sales process, or achieve some sort of milestone or some capability, right? So, often, that's, like, build a new department, or come up not just with a specific feature but a new offering, like launch a whole product line. Anything that's important to you can be a goal. It should be clear and inspiring. And that's the objective piece.
\n\nKey results answer the question: how will you know if you're successful in reaching that goal? That might be if you're building a new department, a certain number of hires. If you're launching a feature or want to have a new offering, that might be some KPI for the product team, like, you know, onboarding rates or retention rates.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, and let's maybe even go into a real example: myself, I'm a managing director here at thoughtbot. People who aren't familiar with thoughtbot...I'm sure everyone listening has [laughs] familiarity with what we do as a product and business consultancy. And our team at Mission Control, the goal was to innovate on our approach to how we were deploying and managing software.
\n\nSo, over 20 years, the trends and modernization of infrastructure was something we wanted to be a part of, and we wanted to enable and accelerate not just our own development teams but our clients' teams in deploying software securely and efficiently and meeting everything that we need to do. Like, it's an incredibly complex environment. And there's lots of choices to make. So, that's, like, the big vision of what we're trying to do at thoughtbot. It's a new service. It's touching not only our internal processes but also, like, the growth of our business overall.
\n\nSo, what I've done as a managing director I talk with my team. I work with the CTO of thoughtbot, Joe Ferris. He's my acting director [chuckles] on identifying what is our overall approach? What's our strategy? So, one of the things we do at thoughtbot, one of our strategies, is to put content out there. So, we want to build stuff that works for us, and we want to share and talk about it.
\n\nAnd we believe that by putting good stuff out there, good stuff will come back to us [laughs]. So, really just increasing the amount of blog posts, increasing the amount of open-source contributions and [inaudible 13:03] people we talk to and hear about what their problems are. We think that that will be an indicator for us of whether or not we're being successful in growing this business. So, that's just, like, one small strategy, but I've got five other ones if you want to talk about them.
\n\nEVAN: Yeah, I mean, you highlighted a large goal that you have, and then some of the, like, sub-objectives in reaching that goal. And you could imagine key results being metrics along number of blog posts, audience size, number of readers, engagement. I mean, all those have different values, depending on what your goals are.
\n\nVICTORIA: Exactly right. Like, there's the overall leading indicators we have of, like, whether or not we're successful as a business [laughs], which is, like, revenue, and, like, margins of profit, which really aren't going to change. And as a company, we don't change our policies or things that often to where those costs are ultimately going to change. It's all about, like, are we bringing in new business? Are we retaining the clients we have? And are we able to sustain, you know, work that centers around this problem area?
\n\nSo, that kind of, like, makes our goal tracking, like, the numbers month to month somewhat easy. Although those individual strategies and how they all line up to meet, that is something I think I'm curious to hear about how you facilitate those discussions with teams. How would you, like, begin an engagement with a team where you have a company like thoughtbot [laughs]? How are you going to coach us to get better at our goals?
\n\nEVAN: Well, one thing I do is I pull apart KPIs, Key Performance Indicators, from OKRs, which you actually implied. KPIs are metrics you use to judge the health of your business, when OKRs are the goals that are going to transform your business. They fit well together. But, you know, for a founding team, they're still trying to figure out, well, how do we actually measure if this is going well? What does that mean? And I have a whole technique for that.
\n\nBut for a larger company, something like thoughtbot, you probably have pretty clear KPIs for the business and for each department. And you can look each month to make sure that those are in a healthy band or each week. And then, when you go to set goals, one of the things you can say is, "Hey, what's not working well? Why are the KPIs not where they should be?" And there's other ways of coming up with good goals, but I do think that's one of the starting points for goal setting.
\n\nAnother one, and I'm curious if you all have this here, is, like, a sense of what's holding back your growth. So, if you have a clear goal of growing your business year over year; usually, people in different departments have a sense of what challenges they're facing in executing towards those growth goals. And, fundamentally, there's usually some sort of competitive or market conditions or customer conditions that are concerning to you as a business in terms of where you're currently at. So, do you all have that type of, I guess, angle on thoughtbot's growth at all?
\n\nVICTORIA: You know, for me, it's my first year as managing director. And experiencing how thoughtbot does planning, I appreciated our approach this year was to ask each managing director more like a retro style, like, "What should we do more of? What do we like doing? What didn't really work, and what should we do less of? And what other things do we want to start doing?"
\n\nSo, it's kind of similar to start, stop, continue but, you know, just really reflecting on, like, what's working? What should we do more of? What doesn't work, and we should just stop [laughs], or change, or figure out how to improve? And then, what should we start doing? And what kind of new behaviors do we need to practice and learn to build a better system?
\n\nWhich I think when you talk about what's holding people back, I think it's difficult to understand in a complex organization of 100 people how all these departments work together and how they contribute and support teams. So, I'm curious, from your experience, and you like to come in and organize and get focused, so if you have that level of complexity in an organization, how do you start to get people organized and understanding how they all work together and what's working and what's not?
\n\nEVAN: Yeah, that's a good question. I might punt that to the second half of my answer here and answer an earlier question [inaudible 17:08] how we get started. Because I think that actually comes up as, like, the second piece. I think the first piece is, like, when I start with an organization, I usually sit down with the CEO. Maybe there's a founding team. Maybe it's a leadership team.
\n\nAnd I try to understand their vision for where the company's going and, one, how clear and actionable it is. So, does it feel like, oh, I get exactly how they're going from point A to point B to point C, or is it a little bit murkier? And trying to nail that down. And sometimes I do, like, a strategy workshop around that.
\n\nBut the next piece is understanding if they have a clear plan for the next quarter, next year. When I come into companies, I'm doing OKRs quarterly. So, even if they don't have a clear strategy, we still need to set goals for the next quarter. I then have them just kind of draft goals with not that much guidance here. I might do some sort of training so everybody, like, understands what OKRs are. And then, you know, I do...and this is a common thing, I think, like, my background is in product, is trying to understand the root cause of things.
\n\nSo, usually, there's some goal that I can ask. And, usually, there's a goal that's, like, something that seems very strategic, like a new offering, or changing how the business is organized, or it's very growth revenue-oriented. Those are, like, the two types of goals that people usually come up with.
\n\nSo, there's a lot of just, like, asking why this is valuable, and kind of going up the ladder, down the ladder asking why it's valuable, and understanding what their root motivation is for doing this. And then going the other direction and saying, "Oh, if we did this, then what would happen?" And trying to just understand how they're thinking of this goal and how it fits in a longer chain of events.
\n\nAnd, usually, through that process, we shift the focus point. So, it's rare that somebody comes up with, like, exactly the right goal. I think when they start understanding what would the effect be of that goal, sometimes one of those things is the actual goal. Or if there's a root cause, it doesn't always mean that we go to the root cause, right?
\n\nIf somebody wants to, like, fix their onboarding, and that's really, like, their whole focus point, you know, when you say, "Why?" and they talk about helping a certain customer get more focused. And then you may say, "Well, why?" And they say, "Oh, well, you know, we have this revenue model that involves helping them, and we make money." And "Why?" "So we can grow our business at a certain clip." And that's the arc that we build.
\n\nThat doesn't mean we go to, oh, well, you're trying to make more money faster. That might not be really what the focus should be for the quarter. So, we have to always start just trying to, like, dial in with what the right angle is. That's both...I think you want to choose the thing that's the most fundamental to the business that still feels attainable and focusable, if that's a word, in the short term, right? That's like, oh, this is a good target for a quarter or a year, if you're doing it on an annual basis.
\n\nSo, that's, like, how I usually get started with folks, which, you know, depending on how much thought there is around strategy, like, it goes in different ways. Sometimes, the company has a very, like, clear strategy, and then everything I said works pretty smoothly. And you get to a goal very quickly that you kind of orient the company around.
\n\nIf the strategy is either not explicit or maybe the CEO has a different vision for it than, you know, CTO or the head of sales, then there's more negotiating between folks and getting on the same page. And I think that's a whole, like, can of worms that we can dive into, but that's, like, a different type of exploration.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, I love all that. I have so many follow-up things I want to ask. Just to play it back a little bit, too, I really resonated with some of what you're saying around it's kind of better to draft it; just write it. Like, the act of planning is more valuable than the plan itself. Like, get as close as you can as fast as you can [laughs]. That makes sense. Like, something that feels, like, good enough and, like, kind of go with it and, like, see how it goes.
\n\nYou know, like, I think that's a mindset that can be difficult to implement in an organization, especially if there's been, like, past trauma with, like, not meeting your goals. And how does that flow down to the organization?
\n\nEVAN: That's a hard thing.
\n\nVICTORIA: And it makes me think of, like, what you started with, like, talking about getting to the root of what's happening. Like, what are the motivations of individual people? Like, what's happened in the past? Like, trying to take an approach that's...I prefer blame-aware to blameless. You can't get away from the tendency to blame people. So, you just have to accept that that happens and kind of move on and, like, quickly go past it [laughs] and just, like, really get to, like, what are the facts? What does the data say about this organization? So, anyways, I think that that was where I went to. I think --
\n\nEVAN: One thing I did...I started with a new company; I guess, two or three quarters ago around the OKR coaching. And, you know, I think there was this expectation. We've been doing OKRs. There's issues we need you to come in and solve and fix everything. And the tone I tried to set was, hey, I'm not here to set great goals for you. You're going to set the best goals you can. And I'm here to help support that process and teach you a lot about goal setting.
\n\nAnd we're going to do this every quarter. And after two or three quarters, things are going to start becoming a lot easier. People are going to communicate better. Everybody's going to be on the same page. And it's going to feel like, oh, we're getting really good at goal setting.
\n\nAnd then, like, I try to set that tone when I start working with the CEO of, like, the point here is to make your whole leadership team good at goal setting so that you have this skill as an organization, rather than set just the right goals with the right language in the right way right now, right? We want to timebox everything. So, we're moving forward using this tool to make progress throughout the quarter, and then each quarter, revisiting it and getting better.
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\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm curious if there's anything else when you're evaluating whether or not someone might be a good fit for the work that you want to do with them. Are there, like, some red flag, green flag energy that you check for with executives when you're deciding whether or not to work with them?
\n\nEVAN: Yeah, there are two flags that come up; one is, are they clear with what they're saying? I think a lot of leaders want to sound good. So, that doesn't mean that they need to be clear right off the bat. But in a conversation where someone says, "This is our vision," and you say, "Hey, I don't understand X, Y, and Z," or "This part didn't make sense to me. Can we dive into it?"
\n\nAnd yeah, if someone through a conversation can be really clear about what's important to the company and where they're going, I think that's, like, key. Because if someone's talking around issues all the time and when you kind of bring up things they don't really address it, it's very hard to make any progress. It's like, you know, the lack of specificity ends up being a defense towards maybe dealing with some of the difficult conversations.
\n\nBut, like, at the end of the day, like, one of the major things that happens with goal setting that makes it, I think, feel exciting to people when it does—it always feels exciting to me [laughs]—when it feels exciting to other people is that they say, for the first time, "Oh, this is actually the thing holding us back. This is the problem. Yeah, we want to grow our business."
\n\nBut when you say, "Well, what are all the things you do to grow your business?" All of a sudden, you start talking through things, and someone says, "Hey, this is the real problem. This is why we're struggling to grow our business." And, you know, that transforms the conversation. People who are avoiding being specific, that can be really hard. That's one thing.
\n\nAnd the other thing is around responding to feedback. And, you know, you can just...and this is a common interview question, right? You can ask somebody, "What do you think the weaknesses of your organization are?" And if somebody doesn't know, but they're, like, open to it, that's, I think, totally fine. But if it seems like they're constantly kind of, like, filibustering the answer there, it's like, hey, the main thing you're bringing me on to do is to make sure that you communicate the weaknesses of your organization to everybody else because that's what goals are about. They're about overcoming the weaknesses of your organization.
\n\nSo, those are two areas. And they also speak to, like, I think, rapport with the people that I'll be working with.
\n\nVICTORIA: I agree. And I like that, you know, you're asking really for people, are you going to be honest about what's happening in your organization? Are you honest with yourself about where you're not doing well? And I think I also pay attention to the language people use to describe those problems. And are they really speaking with a growth mindset or a fixed mindset? Because that's a really hard thing to change [laughs]. Naturally, I think people who are good leaders and run successful companies have a growth mindset. So, I think that's usually there. But that would be some yellow-flag stuff for me.
\n\nEVAN: You know, when people are looking to hire an OKR coach, they usually already are looking for improvement. And it's not like they're hiring a product manager, right? You have to be saying to yourself, hey, I believe that if we did better around goals, our company would grow better. We'd have better focus. We'd have better alignment. Like, there's already a belief that people have that is usually pretty self-aware of the limits of both the people there and the organization where it's at today, and they're looking for help.
\n\nSo, I think I come across what you brought up more in individual people on a leadership team that, like, feel more coachable or less coachable depending on how interested they are around expanding how they think about things and growing. And, you know, obviously, [inaudible 27:01] lots of opinions that are wrong, and I love the disagreement that comes up there. But you want to, you know, you want to be speaking to people that are generally open to learning through a conversational process.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. Yeah, I think it's like a confirming thing. Like, if they're reaching out to a goals coach, they probably do have a growth mindset. And if the top leadership does, then that means that there's an opportunity for other people to come along as well. So, I like opening it up that way and getting people to get specific about their goals as well. I think that's a real challenge. Like, it's either too vague or too specific, not inspiring enough.
\n\nSome people still bring up SMART goals with me. I like to prefer HARD goals, but you probably need those. And I'm curious if you're familiar with those acronyms. I can spell them out. And I'm sure you've heard of both of these [laughs]. A lot of people are familiar with the SMART goals and the specific, measurable, actionable. I forget what the Rs and Ts are.
\n\nBut then HARD goals are heartfelt and more around, like, the big vision. And it's something that you want to get people excited about, which is something that you said earlier. Like, how do you get people excited? And some people would think of a corporate goal-setting event as a level three fun [laughter]. So, how do you make it more like a two or a one?
\n\nEVAN: I don't know, a lot of what I hope I offer to folks...and I've gotten good feedback here is that I enjoy goal setting a lot. So, talking through all these problems, talking through challenges, doing workshops, having these conversations. Like, whenever I'm doing that, it's my favorite thing to be doing. So, I think, hopefully, some of my joy just rubs off on the people around me. Because I do think talking to somebody who's excited about what you're talking about is helpful.
\n\nThe other thing is, usually, at a decently small company, under 100 people, I'm working with the CEO and the leadership team; you know, people are there because they care about the company. They care about the mission of the company. They care about the people in the company, and they care about the growth of the company.
\n\nSo, I get why goal setting has, I think, can have a bad rap. But if you're fundamentally solving problems that people care about, there should be some, like, glee that comes in when people say, like, "Oh, yeah, I thought this was going to be about, like, how do we grow more? And that felt very generic to me." And it turns out when we actually think about how we grow more, and we talk through what's holding back our growth and what we can do to overcome that, and we have the top few ideas that we've all come up with, usually, those feel really relieving to people.
\n\nAnd there's a company I'm working with now that I think is struggling to shift their target market a bit because...and there's awareness that the target market needs to shift, but there isn't so much knowledge around the new target market. There's a lot more knowledge around the old target market. And so, we're doing a bunch of research and talking to folks.
\n\nAnd I know once we're able to say, "For this target market, we need to do X," there is going to be, like, a huge amount of excitement and relief at the organization because people will feel like, oh, we've crossed that bridge, that bridge that we were kind of in the middle of crossing and didn't really know where the other side was. We now can see that other side, and we're going there. So yeah, I think there can be a lot of excitement around this stuff when it's real, and it's important work that you're doing.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. Like, maybe there's a good factor of, like, how do you measure if what you've done with a company is successful? Is there a glee scale that you [laughs] use to evaluate?
\n\nEVAN: You know, for me, it's still probably more subjective than I want it to be. You know, I'd love it to be like, what percentage of people's OKRs did I [laughs] hit each quarter? And when I work with them, it gets better. But I think that's, like, a pretty short-sighted view in terms of my role. So, you know, I'm looking for people who were maybe disengaged to be more engaged, people who didn't see the value of OKRs to see and be able to articulate how their daily work is different because of the OKRs we set.
\n\nYeah, and obviously, there's excitement when we're solving real problems. And we're changing the problems each quarter, and people are seeing growth increase. You know, like, all that stuff, I guess there's, like, a tangible excitement with. But I hope folks can, like, just connect the dots between the work, which can be tedious work around goal setting and negotiating with people. And often, it pulls you out of other day-to-day work that you're doing, especially for a small company, with the excitement towards the end of the quarter of reaching these goals and moving on to the next challenge.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think that's great. I think that was a perfect answer. It's kind of not always easy to know what [laughs]...like, sometimes there's a sense of it, like, you have a feeling, and sometimes you can get data to back that up. And other times, you know you're doing the right thing by the people's faces around you at the end of the workshop [laughs]. So, I think that's great. And so, maybe my final question would be is, like, what would be the ideal organization that you would want to work with? Like, who's your ideal customer right now?
\n\nEVAN: Yeah, I guess I have two ideal customers based on these, like, two things that I'm doing. In terms of the OKR coaching, I usually look for CEO or founding team of a company that's now, like, 20-plus people who's saying, "Oh, we have these departments," or "We have this leadership team. And we need to really get all on the same page at the beginning of the quarter because then everybody's going to consistently be talking to each other but has other people that they need to organize." That's definitely for the OKR coaching where, like, 20 to 30 people is where that starts. That probably goes up to 100 in terms of where I focus.
\n\nFor the other work I do as a Techstars mentor and the coaching I do through that, that's really for founding teams. And that's more focused on how do you take your vision and make that a clear goal statement, which is around, like, behavior change, usually, in a certain population you're targeting? How do you turn that into a go-to-market plan? How do you turn that into a product roadmap? So, for that, that's just much smaller teams.
\n\nI actually think that work often needs to be done at larger organizations, too. That's, like, a common thing that comes up. And that can bleed into strategy at large organizations. But yeah, I know that's probably a pretty broad bucket, but groups of people that believe that focus is a key lever towards faster growth.
\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you for that. And I guess I said that was my final question, but I'll add two more questions. Can you share an anecdote from being a mentor at Techstars that you think will be interesting for our audience?
\n\nEVAN: I think I was struck the first time I did the mentoring. They do, like, a Mentor Madness. So, it's like, you know, six companies in a row, and every company they all have different challenges. But a lot of them, it's, like, helping them articulate what they're doing a little bit more clearly. And often, there's a question around sales and growth and maybe fundraising. So, there's just, like, a focus in that direction. And I found that every company, even though they had kind of different questions, I was giving the same answer to, which was, I don't think your goal is clear to you or to me.
\n\nAnd so, there's this framework that I would use with each company that there was, like, this aha moment. And I picked this up from a person named Matt Wallaert. It was a book, "Start at the End." It's called a behavioral statement. And it's when population wants to motivation, and they have limitations, they do behavior as measured by data. And the kind of conceptual version is, oh, you're trying to get some group of people to change their behavior. And that's only going to happen if you can tap into a motivation that happens to them as frequently as the behavior you want to change. So, it's like a formalization of that.
\n\nAnd each group, I'd like bring up the statement; we work on filling it quickly. And there was just, like, a clarity that would develop around what they were doing and how to orient themselves both on the growth and marketing side and on the product development side. I guess it just struck me how much that little framing was transformative to [laughs] accelerating both focus and alignment but, more importantly, like, getting somewhere that they wanted to get to.
\n\nVICTORIA: It sounds almost like building a mental model of what you're trying to do [laughs], right? Like, it was a mental model that you referenced in your mind that helps you make decisions every single day. So, I really appreciate that. And we are about out of time. So, let me ask you, is there anything else that you would like to promote today?
\n\nEVAN: Sure. Looking for a couple more OKR coaching clients for the new year, and just happy to chat with anybody who has questions around OKRs or goal setting for their organization.
\n\nI also do personal goals coaching, which is a little different from the OKR coaching that I help individual people with their goals. But it's also similar. It's a lot of like...it's a lot more, like, reflection, and getting to know oneself, and coming up with goals that are really meaningful.
\n\nAnd then the other half of, like, I think you alluded to this earlier around systems. Like, how do you take a goal that's important to you and actually act every day in ways that move you towards that goal? So yeah, interested in talking to people about both of those. I do some workshops as well, so people can reach out to me at evan@evanhammer.com. I can also put anybody on my mailing list. I do some workshops around both those things.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Evan, for joining us today.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThank you for listening. See you next time.
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Special Guest: Evan Hammer.
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If you missed the first episode with thoughtbot Incubator Program partcipant and founder Josh Herzig-Marks of Knect, you can go here first to catch up.
\n\nA key focus of Josh's second episode is the importance of user research and customer discovery. Josh stresses that talking to users is crucial, as it grounds the development process in reality. thoughtbot's Director of Product Strategy, Jordyn Bonds, adds that direct engagement with users builds empathy and understanding within the team, making it more effective.
\n\nThey also discuss the challenges of identifying a product's target audience and the importance of iterative customer feedback. Josh and Jordyn highlight the need for founders to be resilient and open to feedback, even when it's negative.
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nJOSH: We're live.
\n\nDAWN: Welcome. Thanks, everyone, for joining. I'm Dawn. I am going to be emceeing today, facilitating, really just asking questions and letting these great people talk. Filling in for Lindsey, who is usually here. Thanks for being here. We're excited to talk to everyone and hear your comments and questions.
\n\nYou might be familiar with thoughtbot. We're a product design and development consultancy. And we like to help people make products or make products better. We are currently in our third incubator session. And today, we're talking to one of two founding teams.
\n\nAnd in case you aren't familiar with the incubator, it's an eight-week program that we run with founders. We pair founders up with a product quad from thoughtbot. And we undergo market research, customer discovery, basically market and product validation exercises to help us hone in on a solution, a potential solution for the problem that we're trying to solve, and build a product plan with the founder, basically set them off on a path for success, hopefully, and next steps. Do you want to kick us off, Jordyn?
\n\nJORDYN: Yes.
\n\nDAWN: Tell the people about yourself.
\n\nJORDYN: I'm Jordyn. I'm the Director of Product Strategy on Dawn's team. Dawn is my boss. And I sort of run the incubator. I have also founded two startups and been the first head of product at two others, so four early-stage startups.
\n\nJOSH: I'm Josh. I am the founder part of this who is working with the thoughtbot incubator. I founded a startup. I wasn't very good at it. I was very lucky at it. I was head of product at a whole series of other startups. And I enjoy that a lot.
\n\nA few folks have asked me why I wanted to join the thoughtbot incubator if I've done this before. I'm, like, moderately techie for a non-technical person. And I coach other founders in doing the sorts of things that Jordyn and her team are coaching me on. So, I'm doing this thing for a few reasons. One is being a founder is really, really lonely. But the other one is that there's just a huge value in bringing together the diverse set of perspectives. And we're doing that with a company that's really good at getting complicated things out the door, having them be successful through a focus on who the end user is.
\n\nIt kind of felt like a no-brainer because I felt like—and we talked about this last week—I had the Josh problem that I wanted there to be a solution to. And trying to figure out, is there a larger opportunity that this represents?
\n\nDAWN: Thanks. Well, you cued us up well for the topic, at least that we're going to start with today, which is user research or customer discovery. I think it probably goes by several names. That's another interesting topic we [laughs] could get into. But what is this user research that you're doing? Why is it important? What's it doing for this team at this stage?
\n\nJOSH: One of the founders I work with asked me a couple of months ago, "Just remind me again, what are the things I have to do to build a product?" And I'm like, "It's actually really easy," right? My, like, standing on one foot advice is talk to users, mostly customers. Bring your engineers along when you can. And if you do those things, mostly everything will work out. But I think it's actually, like, there's some subtlety in all of those things, right?
\n\nIt's not that talking to users or customers is going to solve all of your problems. It's just that you're not going to make any progress in the absence of doing that, right? Because then you're just talking to yourself. And I don't know about everybody else here in this group or who might be listening, but it's really easy to get yourself all spun up inside of your head if you're only talking to yourself. Users are the ones who ground you, right? And ultimately, users are the ones who could turn to customers. So, why customers, right? As the people you really want to be talking to. Now, we don't have any customers yet, so we can't do that.
\n\nBut you know something about customers more than anybody else, and that's they're willing to pay for the thing, for the problem you're trying to solve. They could be paying in money. They could be paying in time. They could be paying in reputation. Oftentimes, they'll be paying in all three of those things or two out of three of those things. But they have an expressed willingness to pay. And that's really the magic of, like, having a product and having those conversations.
\n\nNow, why do you bring along your engineers? It's because the most effective tech companies...and I think thoughtbot is maybe unusual in design-build firms in really internalizing this, but the most successful tech companies are the ones where the entire organization is aligned around understanding who is our market? Who is our customer? What is their problem, and what does it take to solve that problem for them?
\n\nAnd too often, all that stuff is, like, stuck inside of the founder's head, or the sales team's head, or the marketing team's head, or the product manager's head, or little bits of stories are stuck other places. But when we're all listening to the same conversations, that's when it's most effective to build alignment around who's the customer? What are their needs? What would they pay for?
\n\nJORDYN: I agree. And I would add some detail there that why does it work like that? How does having everyone at the organization talk to users and customers build that alignment? And it's one of those things that's kind of, like, it has to be seen to be believed in a certain way. But, like, you can break it down. You know, we can all sit in a room and argue about what reality looks like out there. But it's a lot more efficient if we're all living in that reality together. There's a lot less bringing everyone along.
\n\nIf you've got skeptics on your team, and I hope that you do because they're very useful people, they want to hear it from the source. So, great, go have them hear it from the source. And there's nothing that's more motivating as an engineer, having been an engineer, than seeing someone live fail to achieve their goal in the piece of software you're working on. You will turn around and go fix that bug right then. A bug that has maybe been sitting at the top of the backlog for, like, six weeks or six months, when you see someone struggling with it [laughs] in action, you'll be like, oh, I see. Okay, this is actually causing a lot of angst out there, and I...
\n\nSo, anyway, building that empathy, it's always easiest to build it directly. And it's harder if I am here and if I'm having to triangulate empathy through someone else. Like, if only one person on your team is talking to users and listening to users, and then they come back to the team, and they're like, "Here's what I'm hearing," maybe the team believes you. Maybe they hear the same things out of your mouth that they would have heard directly out of the user, but probably not [laughs].
\n\nSo, it sounds less efficient. People resist it because it feels intuitively, I think, to a lot of people like a waste of time to have engineers doing user interviews or having anyone else. There's a lot of pushback at organizations for doing this for different reasons. If you're doing, like, an enterprise SaaS thing, sales might really not want anyone else talking to customers because they worry it's going to erode that relationship that they feel like they have.
\n\nNothing could be further from the truth in my experience. Customers feel valued. The more people on your team they talk to, the more they are listened to, the more they are taken seriously, and, like, have people engaging with them, that only bolsters your relationship with them, not the opposite. But either way, it's just much more efficient when everyone is hearing the thing from the people it's impacting directly. I get that that does not intuitively feel true, but I assure you that it is true.
\n\nDAWN: So, --
\n\nJOSH: And even more so at this stage where our experience as designers or engineers is much less important than our experience as team members who are trying to find who is that initial audience going to be who is so motivated they will let us build a product for them?
\n\nDAWN: That's exactly what my follow-up question was related to, which is there's this sort of perception that you sort of stay in your lane, right? With the different roles that you occupy [laughs] in an organization, whether it's early stage or later stage. And even for people who are participating in that customer discovery, you kind of want to, like, ask questions that are most relevant to your role.
\n\nSo, how do you, like, prepare teams or, you know, offer guidance to teams to help them sort of get into the right mindset going into those conversations, not so that they execute it perfectly because they have to have some UX design background, but so that you can learn the important things?
\n\nJOSH: I think it is totally natural for someone to feel unprepared coming into these, but that's okay, right? Their job is to develop this as a skill, and the only way they're going to do that is by actually doing it. I am certain there were people on the thoughtbot team who felt uncomfortable doing this for the first time, talking to somebody who wasn't even a user, a rando who Josh found on the internet who was willing to chat and go talk to them.
\n\nAnd I know they got better at it because I get to watch everybody's interview recordings, and I get to watch the notes they're taking. And I get to watch my own. And we have, like, a team of five of us who, like, are all getting better at this, and that's good. These things are skills, and you got to practice them, which, putting on my friends of thoughtbot hat, is, I think, one of the reasons why thoughtbot likes to do these things because it's a chance to develop these skills in a really intense way, which we may not otherwise get to.
\n\nAnd it's a thing that, you know, as a founder, I want everybody on my team to be getting good at as quickly as possible. So, sure, prep work. You read a book. It's like baking a cake, right? You know, you can read cookbooks. You can walk up and down the aisle at the supermarket, right? You can go to the bakery and try other people's cakes, but until your arms are deep in flour, butter, and sugar, like, you've no idea what you're really talking about. And I just want to get people making a mess in the kitchen as fast as possible. Nothing bad happens if you have a bad interview. Lots of bad things happen if you never interview. That's my very strong opinion.
\n\nJORDYN: I share the opinion and its intensity. That is exactly how I would have answered.
\n\nJOSH: [laughs]
\n\nJORDYN: There's no substitute for doing the thing. And you can spend your whole life feeling like you're not ready to do the thing. You're not going to learn and get better at it until you just start doing it. It's like...and, Josh, you are right. That is partly what this incubator is for, both internally and externally.
\n\nOne of the main differentiators of what we're doing here with this incubator from other incubator programs out there is we get into the kitchen with you and get our arms and elbow deep in flour with you so that we can help founders, not necessarily Josh who has brought some skills into this with him, but, like, so that you know what it feels like to do the thing.
\n\nThere's a lot of content out there about how to start a company, how to do customer discovery, all this stuff, and you can read all of that stuff. You can also listen to people talk about it all the livelong day. There are tons of people out there who do this all the time. They are on podcasts. They are here on this live stream. That's cool [laughs]. Like, listen to them.
\n\nBut really, there's no substitute for you getting out there and talking to people. And this, I just cannot stress this, like, so many people...given my role here and what I do, people often bring their startup ideas to me. People at thoughtbot, people outside of thoughtbot they say, "I have this idea." I ask, "Who is it for?" They tell me. I say, "Have you talked to those people?" and they say, "I'm not ready to start talking to people yet."
\n\nAnd I'm like, "That is incorrect. You're talking to me. The only way you're going to get to a thing is if you start talking to people, like, yesterday." And they resist. "Well, I still need to figure out." And I'm like, "No, you don't need [laughs] to figure anything out." If you're going to build something for someone, go engage with them, learn what their life is like, what their work is like today. Hello, people listening to this, do this today.
\n\nJOSH: Jordyn talks a lot about the emotional labor of being a founder, and I think it's really important. Like, hey, founders out there who hear this and they feel a bit overwhelmed, that's okay, right? The thing which you're going to learn how to do as a founder is talk to people about the thing you're trying to do and have people give you feedback you don't like, and it's not fun.
\n\nYou know, I work with a lot of very technical founders, and it's amazing the things people will do to avoid that. They will take their savings, their retirement money out of the bank and plow it into design-build firms. They will quit their jobs to build this thing themselves just to avoid having that potentially unpleasant conversation.
\n\nSo, potential founders, if you want to prepare yourself for being a successful founder or even a mediocre founder, the thing which you need to do is [laughs] improve your frustration tolerance. Get really good at people telling you your idea is bad, or your process is bad, or something else is bad. And maybe they're right, and maybe they're wrong, and it doesn't matter. But you got to be able to tolerate that.
\n\nJORDYN: Yes, you have to be able to tolerate that. And you have to be able to actually, like, listen for the relevant feedback that's buried in there. So, the founder Josh just described was me, P.S.
\n\nJOSH: [laughs]
\n\nJORDYN: The first time.
\n\nJOSH: Not just you.
\n\nJORDYN: And not just me, not merely me, but it was me. You know, technical background definitely plowed my meager savings—because I'd already been working in startups, which does not pay well, newsflash [laughs]. I don't know if any of you know this; they don't pay well—into a product that I hadn't really spoken to very many people about. But I knew that I needed to start talking about it with people, but I didn't know how to do that well. That's okay. So, I started talking to people about it after the fact. I should have done this sooner. That's cool.
\n\nMy first company was this product called TallyLab. Like, you can think of it like a data diary app. Basically, it's a place you can go and collect small data to kind of figure out, like, if you think you have a food allergy. Think of it like a food allergy notebook but a digital app for it. I think that when the moon is full, and I eat over a pint of strawberries, I get a stomach ache, whatever it is. So, you need to track the cycles of the moon and how much strawberries you ate and when, and then you can do this analysis.
\n\nAnyway, if you're thinking to yourself, that doesn't sound like a business, you are correct. Anyway [laughs], I was describing this to my friend's dad. My friend had just had her first kid. I was over meeting this baby. Her dad was there. And he was just like, "What do you do?" And I was like, "Oh, I have a startup." He's like, "What's your startup do?" And I told him. And he was like, "Sounds like you're just feeding people's OCD to me."
\n\nLike, I felt physical pain at that reaction to this. Like, he was like not only...his tone was so derisive [laughs]. But, like, there was information for me in that. First of all, I needed to think about who is this guy. Where is he coming from? Does this have anything to do with his life at all? Should I even listen to this? In fact, maybe he's, like, my anti-ideal customer. And this feedback is great for me because it means my ideal customer is a good fit, whatever. There's information in there, right?
\n\nBut this was some of the first feedback I was getting on this from someone in the wild [laughs]. So, I had to dig that dagger right out of my heart. So, it's going to happen. It's going to happen, but you got to, like, steel yourself for it, like Josh says. And you also find a way to respond to it with curiosity.
\n\nSo, if I could go back in time to that conversation...I just changed the subject immediately, I think, at the time. I was like, "Cool. Let's talk about something else [laughs]." What I should have done is been like, "Tell me more. Why does it strike you like that? Tell me more about this problem in your life," right? That was an opportunity for me to have a customer interview, and I just totally whiffed it [laughs].
\n\nDAWN: Hopefully, it didn't harm your relationship with your friend [laughs].
\n\nJORDYN: Not at all. Not at all. I think she felt somewhat aghast. She was like, "Dad, lay off." [laughs]
\n\nJOSH: Which is actually the other lesson to take from this, which is these things all feel really important and personal and, like, present to you as the founder. Nobody else gives a shit.
\n\nJORDYN: No. And this was a lesson for me. I at least didn't have that problem because I had been in a series of touring rock bands, and I had learned over and over again how little anything I was doing mattered to anyone. Like, you know, you get to the point where, like, you walk offstage, and you're like, "That was the worst set we ever played." No one knows that. No one cares. They were, like, talking to their girlfriend at the bar the whole time, like, whatever, man [laughs].
\n\nLike, whatever is going on with you, you as a human are maybe this big in their purview. What you're doing professionally is even smaller. So, like, don't sweat it. They're not going to be thinking about it again, ever [laughs].
\n\nDAWN: That's the thing. Maybe your startup idea doesn't matter, but you matter. Everyone here matters. Okay?
\n\nJORDYN: Yes.
\n\nDAWN: So, I want to go back to the users or the particular customers in this case. Have there been any surprises? Have there been any daggers out there or any delights? What have you been learning?
\n\nJOSH: Last time we were speaking, we were basically talking to a convenient sample of people who, let's be honest, look a lot like Jordyn and myself, right? They are people in mostly U.S. tech companies, mostly early-stage ones, not necessarily programmers, but maybe they found the company. Maybe they work in product management, or they have other kinds of executive roles. Maybe they change their job every couple of years because that's what people in tech companies do.
\n\nMaybe they like, you know, they carry around a smartphone. They live out of their smartphone. They care about building a network. They attend in-person things when they can. They're in a bunch of, like, networking Slacks, and WhatsApp groups, and things like that. And they all kind of look the same.
\n\nAnd I think the last time we spoke two weeks ago, we were noticing that this thing we were trying to work on was a problem for all of them but not necessarily a problem that they were, on average, investing a whole lot of time and energy into. We recognized this as a group largely because everybody was participating in the conversations and getting better and better at it and getting better and better at kind of, like, pulling out the insights.
\n\nSo, we experimented with a couple of other audiences. And the reminder here is the idea isn't to build a product for one of these audiences; the idea is to build the first version of the product for one of these audiences who feels the need so intensely they're actually going to use the damn thing and give you some feedback. So, the audience has to have a real pain–a willingness to do some work. And we have to be able to find them, so some attribute that allows us to identify where they are.
\n\nThey all hang out at the playground after recess is, like, a good attribute, or they all search for the same kinds of things using the same language or a comparable language on Google, or they all follow the same people on TikTok. They are all examples of audiences that we could somehow identify and address. People who, you know, deep down, are worried that their second-grade teacher didn't like them enough, right? Probably not an addressable audience, even though you can imagine, you know, all sorts of potential problems and potential solutions you can build for those folks. So, we got to find that.
\n\nSo, we've experimented with a few other groups. One is we identified early on in kind of our broader conversations that journalists might have a need for this, journalists or folks that have a broad network, and they check in with those people frequently. And the other one was people who do Biz Dev, or partnerships work at tech companies as well. And we reached out to a bunch of people. And we discovered that both those groups are probably also a little bit too big for us to be focused on.
\n\nIt's not that nobody in those groups had a burning need for the thing that we're trying to do; it's that people in those groups overall didn't. And now we got to go figure out, like, okay, is there, like, a subgroup inside of there that we can identify? Just sports journalists, just investigative journalists, just journalists who don't have a salary who work freelance, just radio journalists, you know, just journalists who went to specific schools. Hard to know what that's going to be, and that's the work that we're doing, like, literally right now.
\n\nJORDYN: We actually published our methodology for doing this recently. People should go to thoughtbot.com and look at our Playbook, our Customer Discovery Playbook, if you want to know how to do this. It is not black magic or something. Basically, you just think about the dynamics that matter that create a need for the thing that you're contemplating building, and then you just generate giant lists of the people who might need that thing.
\n\nAnd guess what? It's going to be totally wrong and weird, and a bunch of different shaped groups of people. It is going to be like people who hang out at the playground and also dog walkers, and just, like, some weird random assortment of personas, individuals, groups of people, but that's where you start. And then you start learning. You take what you know about those people today, and you find the best place to start. And then you start talking to them, and then you learn why they are or are not a good fit, and you keep going through the list. So, it's not mysterious, but it is work. It is hard work.
\n\nSynthesizing on a team what you're hearing is part of that hard work, but it's really invaluable because everybody, like Josh mentioned earlier, brings something different to the conversation, thinks about it from a different vantage, brings different life experiences. And that is just invaluable to unlocking insights, perspectives, directions to pursue. It really is very much a...I don't know what we would call it. It's like a real...it's the hard work.
\n\nYou go talk to a bunch of people. You get together as a group, and you talk to each other about what you're hearing from all the other people [laughs]. You go back and talk to more people or the same people if you realized you weren't asking them the things that you needed to be asking them. You come back together. And out of that process, the patterns emerge.
\n\nDAWN: This is also kind of meta, the fact that y'all are doing so much customer discovery with potential customers who their entire work lives [laughs] are managing conversations, both the frequency and timing of that, but also, like, what they're learning from those conversations. So, that's super interesting.
\n\nIt sounds like, obviously, there are still many conversations to be had. But what else is next? I know we're about halfway through the program. So, what are y'all looking into for the next week or two?
\n\nJOSH: I mean, we don't yet have that audience, which is, I think, a really important part of this and something which I think about all the time as the founder. What does this mean that it's hard to find the audience? Like, what does that tell about the idea, about the opportunity? But I think we've had enough conversations with enough people who have enough similarities in the problems we're trying to solve that I think we're getting good insights into if we knew who would really want this thing; we have some good ideas about how we might be able to help them out.
\n\nSo, we're starting to actually go through the process of, you know, the really early sketches, the wireframes. And what might a solution look like? Which I think is doing two things, right? One, it helps us to sharpen our thinking a fair amount, right? There's, like, a thing which we can react to as a group, which is not as amorphous as an interview. Like, a sharp, pointy thing we can react to. The second is we're going to start showing this to people.
\n\nAnd not everybody we talk to is going to be, like, our final audience we're building for. That's okay. They can still, like, give us thoughts and give us feedback. And it'll probably change the tenor of the conversations we're having with them. And that's also okay, too, right? We're going to learn different kinds of things than we would in the absence of this.
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah. And that is super exciting. And then the other side of that coin becomes feasibility questions. So, this thing that we're imagining, how would we build it? Can we build it? What do we need in order to build it? And so, those conversations are really starting to fire up as we start to imagine a solution.
\n\nDAWN: I know there's a really awesome blog post to come from Jordyn that I reviewed [inaudible 22:27]
\n\nJORDYN: Wow. Public nudging.
\n\nDAWN: [laughs]
\n\nJORDYN: I'm late with this blog post, and I'm being publicly nudged. This is so intense; you're right.
\n\nDAWN: [laughs] But it's so relevant to exactly what y'all have been talking about.
\n\nJORDYN: I know. I know. [laughs]
\n\nDAWN: So, [crosstalk 22:40] retroactively point everyone to it. It's really good stuff.
\n\nJORDYN: How would you state the problem, Josh, if anyone out there has the problem?
\n\nJOSH: The problem we're looking at is people who have a hard time managing their social network in general but their professional social network in particular. You know, that might be, you know there's people you wish you were keeping in touch with, but you just forget to keep in touch with them. Or, you know, you tell somebody to do something in some thread, or some channel, on some social network, or some direct message, and you just kind of forget about that because you don't go back to it.
\n\nOr maybe, you know, you're making friends on Discord. You're making friends on Slack. You're making friends out in the real world, but you don't actually, like, add them into your LinkedIn, something like that. Somebody who's having problems like that that's actually done something about it. Did you go and build yourself, like, a spreadsheet? A baby CRM in Notion, or in Coda, or in Airtable? Do you search out a purpose-built tool?
\n\nYou know, if you think you've ever tried, whether you've been successful or not, to actually solve this problem for yourself, I'd love to talk to you, or Jordyn would love to talk to you. Dawn would probably love to talk to you also. But reach out to any of us any way you can. I got a super Googleable SEO-compatible name, as does Jordyn. So, like, reach out to one of us, and we'd love to chat.
\n\nDAWN: Awesome. Well, thanks, y'all. This has been wonderful, as always. And if anybody has questions for the team, feel free to comment on the post afterwards. And we'll see y'all next time.
\n\nAD:
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","summary":"A key focus of Josh's second episode is the importance of user research and customer discovery. Josh stresses that talking to users is crucial, as it grounds the development process in reality. thoughtbot's Director of Product Strategy, Jordyn Bonds, adds that direct engagement with users builds empathy and understanding within the team, making it more effective.\r\n\r\nThey also discuss the challenges of identifying a product's target audience and the importance of iterative customer feedback. Josh and Jordyn highlight the need for founders to be resilient and open to feedback, even when it's negative.","date_published":"2023-11-28T12:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/c23decc2-4eff-4117-b30b-f343c4b92562.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":28001983,"duration_in_seconds":1471}]},{"id":"dc62b129-5109-4017-bd1e-0516f9cb22ff","title":"501: GNOME and OpenKids Africa with Regina Nkenchor","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/501","content_text":"Host Victoria Guido and special guest Regina Nkenchor discuss the evolution and impact of Regina's work with the GNOME Project and OpenKids Africa. Regina explains how the GNOME Project is advancing its Global Inclusive Initiative, aiming to amplify diverse voices within the community and contribute to GNOME's development. She expresses enthusiasm for OpenKids Africa's efforts to incorporate technology education in rural communities, primarily through engaging early childhood teachers in understanding and teaching tech like virtual reality and robotics.\n\nVictoria probes into strategies for sparking children's interest in technology, with Regina advocating for a co-creative, experience-based approach that includes real-life applications and interactive participation. They also touch on the challenges of balancing professional and personal commitments. Regina shares her ongoing journey to find balance by prioritizing and delegating while still maintaining her nonprofit work and her role at the GNOME Project.\n\nThey also talk about personal growth and community engagement. Regina advises newcomers to leverage open-source tools and be open to change while encouraging fair treatment within the open-source community. Victoria reflects on her experiences with Women Who Code, highlighting the importance of community involvement and networking for career advancement. Both emphasize the significance of creating safe, welcoming spaces in tech communities to foster inclusion and support, especially for women in tech.\n\n\n\n\nGNOME\nFollow GNOME on X, Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, or Mastodon.\nOpenKids Africa\nFollow OpenKids Africa on LinkedIn, X, YouTube, Facebook, or Instagram.\nFollow Regina Nkenchor on LinkedIn.\nFollow thoughtbot on X or LinkedIn.\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Regina, Board Vice President of the GNOME Foundation and Founder at OpenKids Africa. Regina, thank you for joining me.\n\nREGINA: Thank you so much for having me. It's such a great opportunity to be here today.\n\nVICTORIA: That's wonderful. So, what's going on in your world, anything fun or exciting happening?\n\nREGINA: You know, I actually work in Sweden. And this period is actually one of the...let me say the peak period, beginning of a new year, beginning of a new year for my job. So, there's so much around projects, projects, projects. So, I wouldn't say this is more like a fun period because, after the summer, it's a different time here when you're working in Europe.\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, working in Sweden must be so interesting. I'm wondering if you found any cultural differences that were really surprising about working there.\n\nREGINA: Oh yes. I think there are so many cultural differences, one of it is...I come from Nigeria, and we have more, like, a particular way...we don't have a schedule for having breakfast. So, we can have breakfast anytime we want to, and we don't feel any problem by it. So, I could decide to have my breakfast by 12:00 or by 1:00 and have my lunch by 4:00 p.m., you know, it just depends. But here, it's more like you have to have your breakfast early. And by 11:00, 12:00, 1:00, you should be having your lunch. I'm still trying to get used to that one anyway.\n\nAnd also, another cultural difference that I've seen here that is very, very obvious to me compared to where I'm coming from, and I think this is basically the work culture around here, so they have, like, a work culture of taking certain timeouts for vacations, which is not the same thing for me when I was working back in Nigeria. I mean, you could just pick your vacations anytime you want to have them. But here, it's more like you have to have them around the summer somehow so that you could basically have much fun and get the time required. So, I think these basic two things are things I've had to adjust to working here now for over two years, so yeah.\n\nVICTORIA: So, more rigid timeframes for lunch, and breakfast, and vacation [laughs].\n\nREGINA: Yes, yes. And, you know, it's quite funny because even when my colleagues are like, \"Let's go and have lunch,\" and I'm not ready. And they feel like, \"Are you okay? Like, you should be having lunch.\" [laughs] So, it's really rigid timeframe here, I would say that. \n\nVICTORIA: I like that. You know, working in a remote world, it's so easy to just work through lunch or skip breakfast and just go straight to your computer and work. So, I kind of like it. They're looking out for you and making sure that you're taking your breaks.\n\nREGINA: Yes. Yes. And it's actually also making me self-conscious. Because, you know, working daytime as a software engineer, you don't know when to eat. You don't know when to take a break. So, that realization, I'm beginning to more, like, take it more in and adapt to the culture here. Now, I'm always looking out for myself. \n\nAnd when I wake up in the morning, I remember that I need to, you know, grab something, no matter how small. And then, when it's around lunchtime, I'm also preparing to have something as well. So, I think it's really good. And it also keeps me more healthy, I would say [laughs], compared to me just eating anytime I want to eat. So, I think it's a very good culture.\n\nVICTORIA: That's wonderful. And I really want to hear more about your journey and your career. I first heard about you and invited you to the podcast when you were a speaker for Open Source Festival in Nigeria earlier this year. So, I'm curious how you went from being in Nigeria and how did you get into software engineering and get to where you are today with the GNOME Project and everything else.\n\nREGINA: Well, thank you so much for that. I actually started my technology career path...that's about...I would say around about 10-11 years ago. So, I graduated with a public administration bachelor's, so a bachelor's in public administration. I really did not think that I would be doing what I'm doing today. \n\nBut so, when I graduated years ago, that was 2010, I needed more opportunity. And at the time, in Nigeria, technology was not something that was very available to everyone. What I mean is technology was mostly found around those that are privileged, those with more advantage, and all of that. And I wasn't around the set of people that had...those privileged to have computers in their homes or to have parents that has the money to buy these kinds of resources. \n\nBut I had always known as a child that I was very good with my hands. And I could remember when I was quite younger, I was the one that my dad would go to to repair his phone when it's not working well. So, I had this thing with my hands that I couldn't really explain that I like to repair things. \n\nAnd so, when I graduated from the university, I got an opportunity to attend more like a program, a computer program, where they would teach stuff around IT for beginners and all of that. So, I enrolled, and when I enrolled for that particular program, I can remember they would show us more like a slideshow of different programs that you would like to learn, and then give you more like, insight into job opportunities available for those programs. \n\nSo, when I sat in that class as a beginner, and I was watching the slideshows, one of the courses that caught my interest was Linux administration and database administration, so I opted in for that particular course. And that was basically how my journey began. When I began to learn about Linux, I began to use it to basically manage databases; then, I was managing databases in Oracle. And I found that one of the things that I needed to learn was basically knowing how to administer the Linux OS. \n\nFrom there, I began my first job. I worked as a faculty, more like a lecturer teaching Linux administration. So, this time, I had learned, and now I have to help other students learn as well. So, because of this, I began to use more of open-source tools. Now, just to do a little bit of realization check here, at the time when I was basically lecturing years back as a Linux administrator, I did not know that the concept open source existed. I knew that I was using Linux, but I did not really understand the concept of what open source is. \n\nSo, going forward now, as I began to use these tools and began to teach students how to administer databases and use more of Linux operating system tools, I somehow, a particular year, stumbled on the GNOME Project. Because GNOME is more like a feature of the Linux OS—it's a desktop application—I was already familiar with it. I just decided to make my contributions there anyway since I had been using the GNOME Project over the years with the Linux operating system. \n\nSo, I was basically fascinated to see that everything I had done as a user in my career was basically using open source to basically teach Linux and to teach my students. So, that's, in some way, how I got into technology, how I got into open source, and all of that. \n\nSo, going into how I found myself [laughs] in the Open Source Festival and how I found myself in GNOME Project, I chose to contribute to the GNOME Project, one, because GNOME is one of the basic...I'll say a very good feature of the Linux OS. It's a desktop application––allows usability in a way that Linux seems like a Windows operating system. And so, I decided to go into GNOME just to learn more about community, how the community looks like and also contribute my quota to outreach and engagement. \n\nSo, what it means is that there are different areas you can contribute to in the GNOME project, one of it is community and engagements, which means you basically help to do outreach, marketing, and events. So, I wanted to basically bring the GNOME project down to my location, and that's Africa, Nigeria. I wanted people to basically see the benefits of what the GNOME Project is to the Linux ecosystem and how they can also contribute to it. So, because of this, I created a chapter of GNOME in Africa. Right now, we have a community of GNOME Africa. And basically, that is how I started. \n\nSo, this particular Open Source Festival that just completed for 2023 was not my first, although I was a keynote for this particular one. I had attended Open Source Festival in 2020, where I shared as a workshop speaker, and I shared more about improving Linux experience for African users. And one of the demos I did was basically showcasing the GNOME Project to the users. \n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And maybe you can say more about what the GNOME Project is and the kind of impact it can have on communities like the one that you're from.\n\nREGINA: One of the things with GNOME Project, in some way, it's a desktop application, a desktop application that features in the Linux operating system. So, like you know, we have the Windows operating system, and then we have user-friendly desktop that allows us to be able to basically use Windows without going through command lines all the time. GNOME is like that desktop application to Linux operating system. So, it's a feature of distros of Linux that decides to basically use it. \n\nSo, what does it do to a community like mine? I think it is very clear, usability, and allows people as well to be able to contribute to the GNOME shell. Like any other open-source projects, one of the things is that you don't just become a user. But also, you can contribute to the innovation of that particular project, so not just having to be consumers of products but also become creators of those products by contributing to what the community is doing. \n\nSo, I think what it has done to a community like mine is basically given people the opportunity and the free will to become creators for something that is quite unique to the Linux operating system and allowing them to also become part of a community, bringing diversity to the global community globally.\n\nVICTORIA: So, how does GNOME benefit as a project from having these additional communities in areas where they may not have had before?\n\nREGINA: I think the key thing here is diverse voices. The key thing here is bringing in people to create more diverse GNOME Projects. And it's not a buzzword. I think creating better technologies is allowing for diverse users' views to be heard. So, before I came into the GNOME project, they had presence around Europe and the U.S. but not so much around Asia and Africa. What this means is that the design, the usability, the culture around the community is not going to be that that is very friendly towards these communities that they are not part of, these communities that doesn't really know what is happening in the GNOME Project. \n\nSo, having to bring in diversity, bringing in somebody like myself, community like myself, into the GNOME Project, what this means is that there will be more opportunities for GNOME to evolve around what they have in the previous years into something that is more global, something that is more inclusive, you know, a project that allows people to become contributors and designers of the GNOME shell. \n\nSo, I would say this: when I got into the board...this is my second time in the board. We've had several discussions around how to bring in diversity into the GNOME Project and also allow users, newcomers to feel welcomed in the GNOME Project. And that is a discussion and an action that is basically progressive here. \n\nWe are having these conversations because I have now come into the project. There is now space for the GNOME Project to see that we need to be more inclusive. We need to be more diverse in our approach, in our design, in the basically way we listen to users right now. So, this was not the case before I came in. So, it's basically just allowing more diversity into the GNOME Project.\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And I think there's been a lot of studies and evidence that have shown that projects and companies with more inclusive and more diverse voices perform better business-wise afterwards. So, it's not only, like, a moral imperative but just smart business decisions. \n\nREGINA: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes. \n\nVICTORIA: And I'm curious, as a community organizer myself [chuckles], what surprised you about the early stages of starting up this community in Africa, or maybe even joining the board of this community now that you've become there? Anything that surprised you in the process there?\n\nREGINA: I think one of the first things that surprised me is that it was more like I was the only one that knows that GNOME exists [laughs]. So, it's me having to first always explain, giving onboarding sections to newcomers to basically explain to them what the GNOME Project is, and doing multiple demos to show how the GNOME desktop works within Linux. \n\nAnd I thought that people would just know these things and people would just understand how the Linux project works. So, that basically surprised me because I had to always have to...even up until now, I always have to more, like, introduce, guide, and explain what GNOME is and help users to basically or newcomers basically decide if it is something that they will want to contribute to, right? So, that's one thing that surprised me. \n\nAnd I think the second thing that surprised me was mainly about when I came into the GNOME Project; for a project that global, I thought that there would be some certain level of diversity around the projects. And I thought that I would see more of people like myself or more of people from maybe, you know, Asia or something like that. But I realized that that wasn't the case. \n\nInstead, I remember when I was being introduced to the project, I was introduced to other two Africans, and that made us three. And it was shocking for me that there was less presence for Africans within the GNOME Project. And I think that's one of the basic motivation for me to build a community in Africa and to see that they know that a project like GNOME exists.\n\nVICTORIA: I love that, and it reminds me of when I was running DevOps groups with Women Who Code and DevOps DC, how frequently you have to do just a 101, like, a 101, like, here's the basics. Here's the introduction. And getting really good at that and just knowing you're going to have to keep doing that and to bring in new people. Yeah, that's interesting; that was the point for you.\n\nMid-Roll Ad:\n\nWhen starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment but that you don’t have all year to do extended research.\n\nIn just a few weeks, thoughtbot’s Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We’ll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts.\n\nMaximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprint\n\nVICTORIA: I'm curious; maybe we can dive more into open source in general and how it can be more inclusive and more diverse. Because I think what I see with open source is, you know, often, it's people doing maintenance on their own free time. They're not getting paid for it. And, of course, there's all the existing access and issues with enabling women to be more into technology careers. So, I'm curious if you have anything else that you think we should talk about with open source and how to make it more inclusive and have more voices at the table.\n\nREGINA: One of the things here is...and I feel like discussion there is a progressive discussion as open-source communities begin to grow, open-source ecosystem continues to grow. So, one of the things here is, basically, having programs that is geared towards under-representation people within the open-source ecosystem. And this program, I feel like, should be a program that encourages some certain level of incentives, you know, stipends for people that are going to be contributing.\n\nBecause, like I said, in the past, open source has thrived more within Europe and the U.S. area. But in these areas, there are certain levels of opportunities that is presented. It's either the maintainer has good jobs, or they have projects that pays them on the side. So, they could easily give their free time to open-source contribution. \n\nBut looking at the economy side of things and problems we have within areas like Africa and Asia, if you see people contributing or you want people to contribute to open source, there must be some other level of motivations that would get them to basically contribute to your project. So, there are programs like Outreachy. Outreachy is basically a program that helps women to contribute to open source, and they are paid a certain level of stipends at the end of three months, at the end of their contribution. \n\nWe need to have more of such programs to encourage inclusive contribution into open source-projects. Because this way, we get more people that would not necessarily have an opportunity to become open-source contributors to come in to contribute. And also, [inaudible 18:29] more diverse voices in the open-source ecosystem. \n\nAnother thing here is also that we need to also talk about one of the problems within open source at the moment, which is that we have less women representation, and I'm very glad you're very deep within community and Women Who Code as well. So, you will basically relate with this one. So, there are less women within the open-source ecosystem. And even the women that are contributing––they have challenges within the ways they are treated amongst maintenance. They have challenges even with how to prioritize what they are doing and to be able to also give their time to open source. \n\nSo, these all challenges we need to begin to, you know, address them by giving voices to women within open source and helping them to solve some of these problems that they have within, you know, the communities that they are serving in.\n\nAnother thing is to have representation in leadership, and I really cannot stress this enough. When I mean representation, it's having more women leaders because this is where the gap is here at the moment. I think the Linux Foundation had a particular research; I'm not very sure about the year. But it shows that we have about 93% of men in the open-source ecosystem, and that tells you what is left of women, you know, the percentage of women that we have within the open-source ecosystem. So, there's a whole lot of work we need to do to bring in more inclusiveness, to bring in more women into the open-source ecosystem. I'm not particularly sure about the exact statistics for that research, but I know it's around that range. \n\nAnother thing is that we should encourage communities, open-source communities, to have separate channels where diverse voices can basically have their views about their community, so whether it is having to have a pool of questions geared towards, how do you think we are diverse? How diverse are we in this community? What can we do better? You know, taking metrics of your community is one way we can also bring in inclusivity into the open-source ecosystem. \n\nOne of the last thing here that I would mention is events also––open-source events, has to also be conscious around people that are attending their events, around the different races, the different genders. This matrix needs to be taken to basically help to solve and bring more inclusivity into open-source community and open-source events.\n\nVICTORIA: You raised a lot of really great points there. And I won't even try to recap them all because I think I'll miss them [laughs]. But I think you're spot on with everything. It resonates with me, especially, like, working through Women Who Code; what you'll see is there's lots of people interested in joining. There's a drop-off rate around the mid-level of your career because of some of the things that you mentioned, the way that they're treated in the environments and in the communities, and not seeing a path forward to leadership. So, I think you're spot on with everything that you said there. \n\nAnd I'm curious; I want to make sure we make time to also talk about OpenKids Africa and your founding of that. And what was the goal or the idea behind it?\n\nREGINA: The idea behind it was basically my journey into tech. If you recall, I said I started my journey into tech after my bachelor's degree in public administration. And I felt like I could have done more with technology if I was aware about technology a bit more earlier in life. \n\nSo, I wanted to create something and to build something that would give children an opportunity to have better career choices and possibly become technologists, or software engineer, or robotics engineer, or developers in future. But giving them the opportunity to know that this set of careers exist and they could actually make their choices from it. \n\nSo, I grew up in Nigeria, like I said. And at the time I grew up, the trending careers were doctors, engineers, lawyers. And my parents actually wanted me to be a lawyer because, at the time, they believed that I was very good at arguments [chuckles]. I could argue a lot. And that basically quickly transcends to I can be a better lawyer. And also because lawyers, in those times, lawyers were very respected in the society. Now, don't get me wrong, lawyers are still respected. But at that time, it felt as though being a lawyer or being a doctor is the only way you're ever going to have a career in Nigeria.\n\nHaving to feel like I disappointed my parents because I couldn't get into law...I had a diploma. I did a diploma in law program, but I did not get into my degree. So, I had to do something close, which was the public administration I took. Having to go through those whole process in my career and then finish my bachelor's and realizing that I was a bit better in a technology career, I felt like it was a bit late for me and that I would have taken a better chance at my career choices if I had known about technologies earlier. \n\nSo, this is the motivation of creating OpenKids Africa is basically giving children an opportunity to know what they can do with technology, to know how technology cuts across different careers, and to make them realize that technology is no longer an option in your career choices; it's something that needs to be part of your career journey, whether they want to become doctors, whether they want to become technologists in future. Whatever they want to become, they need to have this basic foundation to thrive. So, that's basically what brought about OpenKids Africa. \n\nAnd my target is basically children in rural communities. And so, we are teaching children in rural communities several skills: how to code, how to understand basically foundational courses within technology. Recently, we went to different schools and giving them an experience of how virtual reality looks like. And it was really fun for these children because, like I said, they are in rural communities. They don't even have these opportunities in the first place, and except it is provided to them here. So, that's basically what we're doing. We're giving children in rural community an opportunity to experience technology and to make better career choices in the future.\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And so, you found that the kids are really excited about learning about computers. Do you feel that the parents agree that technology is a good path for them to follow and study? \n\nREGINA: Well, I think that that's another part of OpenKids Africa. So, when I started OpenKids Africa, I wanted to explore the rural community and understand, basically, what are the unique cases that we have here? So that's part of those...I was exploring, basically. We found that some of the children would tell us that, \"I like this, but my mom or my parent would not allow me to do this. They will not allow me to know how to use computers or to become maybe a technologist in future because my mom or my dad thinks I should be a doctor,\" and all of that. \n\nSo, we had to remodel our strategy in a way that we now go to parents' associations in schools in rural communities. And we talk to them about technology, benefits of technology, and how they can encourage their children to learn technology, and also the future career choices for their children. And when we do this, when we speak to parents, we see the excitement of \"Oh, so, my child can actually become this with this technology thing.\" And we also give them safety measures because, of course, there's so many things on the internet here. And there's safety tips for parents to know about, even if they want to allow their children to basically use computers and all of that, child control and all of those things. \n\nSo, by talking to parents, we've realized that we have to have a two-model approach in OpenKids Africa, where we don't just teach the children and encourage the teachers to learn more about technology, but we also have to talk to the parents to allow their children to basically explore technology careers in the future, and also, showing them the opportunities that it will pose to them. So yeah, to be honest, this is one of the surprising things that I found, and it has continued to surprise me as a founder of OpenKids.\n\nVICTORIA: Well, that's, I think, a very common thing for founders is that you think you have one set of users, but there's actually another one [laughs] where it impacts you. \n\nREGINA: Exactly. Exactly [laughs].\n\nVICTORIA: That's wonderful. Are you excited about on the horizon with either the GNOME Project or OpenKids Africa? \n\nREGINA: I will start with the GNOME Project. Right now, we are looking towards things like the Global Inclusive Initiative. And it's basically an initiative that we are looking to put together all the communities we have globally, giving more voices to diverse users to be able to contribute into GNOME. That is something on the pipeline that we're looking to plan. \n\nAnd I'm also excited for OpenKids Africa. So, right now, we are exploring how to get teachers in rural communities involved with what we're doing and basically train them separately as well to know the benefit of technology to children. So, the target teachers here are teachers that basically...early child education teachers and helping them to understand how to teach technology to children, and how to inspire children to appreciate technology innovation we have around the world, innovations like virtual reality, you know, robotics, and all of that. \n\nSo, I'm really excited about that one because I feel like if you can tell the teachers how these things are and the benefits, and then they can better pass the message across to the children, making our work more easier when we have workshops and demos to do in schools, yeah.\n\nVICTORIA: And I've actually gotten this question quite a few times from people, which is, how do you get kids interested in learning [laughs] technology and learning how to code?\n\nREGINA: I think it's basically having a practice that is more child-friendly, co-creative. So, co-creation is basically, you are not the only one doing it. You're involving the children in it as well, and you give them the real-life experiences. So, for instance, when we went to talk about virtual reality to children, and we showed them what virtual reality does in the presentation, we engage with the kids. We make them give us their own ideas. \n\nWe even go as far as allowing them to draw what they see and give us what they think about it. But we don't stop there. We get virtual sets and show them exactly...give them a real-life experience of what virtual reality is. So, children are very, very creative, and they also have a very fast mind to pick pictures. But not only that, they can also store experiences very, very fast. So, we utilize every area that makes children excited in our workshops. After we are done, we do practices, and we give them gifts as well for engaging in those practices. So yeah, we just co-creation [laughs].\n\nVICTORIA: Wow. And you're doing so much because you have a full-time job. You're on the board for GNOME Project, and you have your non-profit, OpenKids Africa. So, how do you find a right balance in your life of work, and extra stuff, and your regular life [laughs]?\n\nREGINA: Honestly, I would say that the word balance I wouldn't use balance for me at the moment because I feel like I've not basically found the balance I'm looking for, but I've been able to prioritize. So, what that means is that I've been able to know what is important part-time and know when to take certain engagements. So, my full-time job is more, like, a priority right now because, of course, we need a job to be able to sustain our lives. So, I take that as my priority. \n\nAnd I have different schedule of days for other things like the GNOME community and working with my team in OpenKids Africa. So, I would say I'm quite lucky to have a very good team. And also, being part of GNOME board, the commitments are not as demanding as you would expect, you know, maybe a regular board. There are fixed schedules on things, and they have flexible time for contribution as well. \n\nI'm also part of the GNOME Africa community. And I recently just on-boarded a community manager because I realized that I need more, like, to take a step back so that I don't get burned out and all of that. So, I think it's basically prioritizing for me at the moment to gain the balance that I'm looking for. So, I think if I have a conversation with you maybe months after now, I would be able to know what balance feels like. So, I'm really experimenting with prioritizing at the moment.\n\nVICTORIA: We'll have to check back in in a few months and see how things are going. But I think that's a very honest answer, and I appreciate that. And I think that probably relates to how a lot of people feel, honestly, even having less on their plate that it's hard to find that balance. So, I appreciate you sharing that. And I wonder, too, if you had any advice for yourself. If you could go back in time, either when you were first starting on your journey or when you were first starting on either of these projects, what advice would you give yourself?\n\nREGINA: I think one of the things...I will talk about first starting on my technology career. I didn't have the opportunities that many young people had at the time because I didn't come from a background where my parents had the finances to basically give me the opportunity to learn technology the way I wanted to. But, I was able to make do with the resources I had at the time to learn and to basically grow. \n\nSo, an advice I will give to my younger self and to anybody that wants to come into technology that do not have the resources, I would say leverage open-source tools as much as you can because now I realize that that's basically what helped me. And also, allow yourself to grow; it will always get better.\n\nAdvice I would give to somebody coming into an open-source project like me at the GNOME Project. I think that one of the things that...understand why you're contributing to that project, and always seek to be treated fairly, always seek to be treated nicely. And also treat other people nicely and fairly as well. I think if we have these both balance, we'll have a better, healthy community within open source. And don't be scared to share your view. Don't be scared to basically be yourself wherever you are found in the community that you're representing.\n\nAnd if I would like to add: OpenKids Africa, for me, if anyone would be...it's, I would say, it's still young because we are going, I think, about our third year now. So, I will say it's still young. But what I would say to any founder that wants to basically found a non-profit or do something in the society, I think, is just to get your motivation, understand why you're doing them, and be open-minded to what you'll learn along the way. That's it.\n\nVICTORIA: I think that's great. Yeah, I love that. And I like that you mentioned that there are open-source tools out there. I'm trying to use those more, and I think I always try to iterate that for people, too, is, like, there's free training. There's free resources. There's free tools. And there are lots of people who want to see you succeed, no matter your background, or where you're from, or what you look like. So, I think that that's a really powerful message. So, I appreciate that. And do you have anything else that you would like to promote?\n\nREGINA: I think before that, I would like to learn more about the Women Who Code. As a community builder, what basically surprised you the most? \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. So, what I loved about Women Who Code is that it was really aimed at helping women get started in careers in technology and maintaining careers in technology. So, I think what was interesting for me...I think I started doing it back in 2017 or 2018, and I just loved it. I loved going to a tech meetup with a room where it's all women [laughs]. Because, normally, and I'm sure you've had this experience, you go to a tech meetup, and you're maybe one of two, at the best, of women in the group. I just really enjoyed that. \n\nAnd I've been really surprised and happy to see how the women, including myself, who started running the meetups, and doing trainings, and helping other women learn how to code have really advanced in their career and become directors, or engineering managers, or really senior contributors in different companies. So, I think that that was a really interesting and surprising thing for people is, like, well, if you want to grow in your career, it helps to be active in your community and to be someone that people know and to have those connections. \n\nAnd I think it still surprises me to this day how my network that I got from investing in all of those meetups and all that time is still paying off [laughs]. Like, I could still, like, reach back into my network and find someone who is an expert on a particular subject or works at a company that I want to talk to or something like that. So, I think that that's been a really wonderful aspect of it. \n\nREGINA: Wow, that's quite interesting. And I really think, also I agree with you. One of the beautiful things around communities and meetups is basically networks, the people that you get to meet, the people that you get to know along the way.\n\nVICTORIA: Absolutely. Yeah, and those are the people that you want to keep working with. So, it helps you find jobs. It helps you find people to hire if you're hiring. It's worth it. Like [laughs], it can feel like, ugh, am I really going to go to this meetup [laughter], like, after work, after a long day? And, you know, maybe the topic is even something I'm not interested in. But it does pay off if you keep showing up and continue to invest in it. Yeah, I think that's smart.\n\nAnd make people feel safe, too. I think that was a big part of it is, you know, going to a meetup and meeting someone maybe like me who's nice and friendly and wants to hear your voice. I think that has a big impact for people, especially if they're, you know, the only woman at their company. And now they have a whole set of friends [laughs]. That's, yeah, how powerful that can be for people.\n\nREGINA: Exactly. Exactly. And you just said one of the most important things, and that's basically making people feel safe, making them welcomed as well. Interesting. Thank you for sharing that one because I was quite curious, and I wanted to really learn more.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I'm very lucky. And we actually had the CEO and founder of Women Who Code on our podcast lately. So, you're in good company [laughs]. \n\nREGINA: Nice.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, it's wonderful. Do you have any other questions for me?\n\nREGINA: My last question, and I'm going to be asking again that I will be inviting you on my podcast as well [inaudible 37:32] [laughs]\n\nVICTORIA: Yes. Of course, yes. Absolutely. Send me the details. I'd be happy to join. \n\nAll right. Well, thank you so much again for joining us. I really appreciate your time. \n\nAnd for our listeners, you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. \n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. \n\nThank you for listening. See you next time.\n\nAD:\n\nDid you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.\n\nMore info on our website at tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.Special Guest: Regina Nkenchor.Sponsored By:thoughtbot: When starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment, but that you don’t have all year to do extended research. \r\n\r\nIn just a few weeks, thoughtbot’s Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We’ll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts. \r\n\r\nMaximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprint","content_html":"Host Victoria Guido and special guest Regina Nkenchor discuss the evolution and impact of Regina's work with the GNOME Project and OpenKids Africa. Regina explains how the GNOME Project is advancing its Global Inclusive Initiative, aiming to amplify diverse voices within the community and contribute to GNOME's development. She expresses enthusiasm for OpenKids Africa's efforts to incorporate technology education in rural communities, primarily through engaging early childhood teachers in understanding and teaching tech like virtual reality and robotics.
\n\nVictoria probes into strategies for sparking children's interest in technology, with Regina advocating for a co-creative, experience-based approach that includes real-life applications and interactive participation. They also touch on the challenges of balancing professional and personal commitments. Regina shares her ongoing journey to find balance by prioritizing and delegating while still maintaining her nonprofit work and her role at the GNOME Project.
\n\nThey also talk about personal growth and community engagement. Regina advises newcomers to leverage open-source tools and be open to change while encouraging fair treatment within the open-source community. Victoria reflects on her experiences with Women Who Code, highlighting the importance of community involvement and networking for career advancement. Both emphasize the significance of creating safe, welcoming spaces in tech communities to foster inclusion and support, especially for women in tech.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Regina, Board Vice President of the GNOME Foundation and Founder at OpenKids Africa. Regina, thank you for joining me.
\n\nREGINA: Thank you so much for having me. It's such a great opportunity to be here today.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's wonderful. So, what's going on in your world, anything fun or exciting happening?
\n\nREGINA: You know, I actually work in Sweden. And this period is actually one of the...let me say the peak period, beginning of a new year, beginning of a new year for my job. So, there's so much around projects, projects, projects. So, I wouldn't say this is more like a fun period because, after the summer, it's a different time here when you're working in Europe.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, working in Sweden must be so interesting. I'm wondering if you found any cultural differences that were really surprising about working there.
\n\nREGINA: Oh yes. I think there are so many cultural differences, one of it is...I come from Nigeria, and we have more, like, a particular way...we don't have a schedule for having breakfast. So, we can have breakfast anytime we want to, and we don't feel any problem by it. So, I could decide to have my breakfast by 12:00 or by 1:00 and have my lunch by 4:00 p.m., you know, it just depends. But here, it's more like you have to have your breakfast early. And by 11:00, 12:00, 1:00, you should be having your lunch. I'm still trying to get used to that one anyway.
\n\nAnd also, another cultural difference that I've seen here that is very, very obvious to me compared to where I'm coming from, and I think this is basically the work culture around here, so they have, like, a work culture of taking certain timeouts for vacations, which is not the same thing for me when I was working back in Nigeria. I mean, you could just pick your vacations anytime you want to have them. But here, it's more like you have to have them around the summer somehow so that you could basically have much fun and get the time required. So, I think these basic two things are things I've had to adjust to working here now for over two years, so yeah.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, more rigid timeframes for lunch, and breakfast, and vacation [laughs].
\n\nREGINA: Yes, yes. And, you know, it's quite funny because even when my colleagues are like, "Let's go and have lunch," and I'm not ready. And they feel like, "Are you okay? Like, you should be having lunch." [laughs] So, it's really rigid timeframe here, I would say that.
\n\nVICTORIA: I like that. You know, working in a remote world, it's so easy to just work through lunch or skip breakfast and just go straight to your computer and work. So, I kind of like it. They're looking out for you and making sure that you're taking your breaks.
\n\nREGINA: Yes. Yes. And it's actually also making me self-conscious. Because, you know, working daytime as a software engineer, you don't know when to eat. You don't know when to take a break. So, that realization, I'm beginning to more, like, take it more in and adapt to the culture here. Now, I'm always looking out for myself.
\n\nAnd when I wake up in the morning, I remember that I need to, you know, grab something, no matter how small. And then, when it's around lunchtime, I'm also preparing to have something as well. So, I think it's really good. And it also keeps me more healthy, I would say [laughs], compared to me just eating anytime I want to eat. So, I think it's a very good culture.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's wonderful. And I really want to hear more about your journey and your career. I first heard about you and invited you to the podcast when you were a speaker for Open Source Festival in Nigeria earlier this year. So, I'm curious how you went from being in Nigeria and how did you get into software engineering and get to where you are today with the GNOME Project and everything else.
\n\nREGINA: Well, thank you so much for that. I actually started my technology career path...that's about...I would say around about 10-11 years ago. So, I graduated with a public administration bachelor's, so a bachelor's in public administration. I really did not think that I would be doing what I'm doing today.
\n\nBut so, when I graduated years ago, that was 2010, I needed more opportunity. And at the time, in Nigeria, technology was not something that was very available to everyone. What I mean is technology was mostly found around those that are privileged, those with more advantage, and all of that. And I wasn't around the set of people that had...those privileged to have computers in their homes or to have parents that has the money to buy these kinds of resources.
\n\nBut I had always known as a child that I was very good with my hands. And I could remember when I was quite younger, I was the one that my dad would go to to repair his phone when it's not working well. So, I had this thing with my hands that I couldn't really explain that I like to repair things.
\n\nAnd so, when I graduated from the university, I got an opportunity to attend more like a program, a computer program, where they would teach stuff around IT for beginners and all of that. So, I enrolled, and when I enrolled for that particular program, I can remember they would show us more like a slideshow of different programs that you would like to learn, and then give you more like, insight into job opportunities available for those programs.
\n\nSo, when I sat in that class as a beginner, and I was watching the slideshows, one of the courses that caught my interest was Linux administration and database administration, so I opted in for that particular course. And that was basically how my journey began. When I began to learn about Linux, I began to use it to basically manage databases; then, I was managing databases in Oracle. And I found that one of the things that I needed to learn was basically knowing how to administer the Linux OS.
\n\nFrom there, I began my first job. I worked as a faculty, more like a lecturer teaching Linux administration. So, this time, I had learned, and now I have to help other students learn as well. So, because of this, I began to use more of open-source tools. Now, just to do a little bit of realization check here, at the time when I was basically lecturing years back as a Linux administrator, I did not know that the concept open source existed. I knew that I was using Linux, but I did not really understand the concept of what open source is.
\n\nSo, going forward now, as I began to use these tools and began to teach students how to administer databases and use more of Linux operating system tools, I somehow, a particular year, stumbled on the GNOME Project. Because GNOME is more like a feature of the Linux OS—it's a desktop application—I was already familiar with it. I just decided to make my contributions there anyway since I had been using the GNOME Project over the years with the Linux operating system.
\n\nSo, I was basically fascinated to see that everything I had done as a user in my career was basically using open source to basically teach Linux and to teach my students. So, that's, in some way, how I got into technology, how I got into open source, and all of that.
\n\nSo, going into how I found myself [laughs] in the Open Source Festival and how I found myself in GNOME Project, I chose to contribute to the GNOME Project, one, because GNOME is one of the basic...I'll say a very good feature of the Linux OS. It's a desktop application––allows usability in a way that Linux seems like a Windows operating system. And so, I decided to go into GNOME just to learn more about community, how the community looks like and also contribute my quota to outreach and engagement.
\n\nSo, what it means is that there are different areas you can contribute to in the GNOME project, one of it is community and engagements, which means you basically help to do outreach, marketing, and events. So, I wanted to basically bring the GNOME project down to my location, and that's Africa, Nigeria. I wanted people to basically see the benefits of what the GNOME Project is to the Linux ecosystem and how they can also contribute to it. So, because of this, I created a chapter of GNOME in Africa. Right now, we have a community of GNOME Africa. And basically, that is how I started.
\n\nSo, this particular Open Source Festival that just completed for 2023 was not my first, although I was a keynote for this particular one. I had attended Open Source Festival in 2020, where I shared as a workshop speaker, and I shared more about improving Linux experience for African users. And one of the demos I did was basically showcasing the GNOME Project to the users.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And maybe you can say more about what the GNOME Project is and the kind of impact it can have on communities like the one that you're from.
\n\nREGINA: One of the things with GNOME Project, in some way, it's a desktop application, a desktop application that features in the Linux operating system. So, like you know, we have the Windows operating system, and then we have user-friendly desktop that allows us to be able to basically use Windows without going through command lines all the time. GNOME is like that desktop application to Linux operating system. So, it's a feature of distros of Linux that decides to basically use it.
\n\nSo, what does it do to a community like mine? I think it is very clear, usability, and allows people as well to be able to contribute to the GNOME shell. Like any other open-source projects, one of the things is that you don't just become a user. But also, you can contribute to the innovation of that particular project, so not just having to be consumers of products but also become creators of those products by contributing to what the community is doing.
\n\nSo, I think what it has done to a community like mine is basically given people the opportunity and the free will to become creators for something that is quite unique to the Linux operating system and allowing them to also become part of a community, bringing diversity to the global community globally.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, how does GNOME benefit as a project from having these additional communities in areas where they may not have had before?
\n\nREGINA: I think the key thing here is diverse voices. The key thing here is bringing in people to create more diverse GNOME Projects. And it's not a buzzword. I think creating better technologies is allowing for diverse users' views to be heard. So, before I came into the GNOME project, they had presence around Europe and the U.S. but not so much around Asia and Africa. What this means is that the design, the usability, the culture around the community is not going to be that that is very friendly towards these communities that they are not part of, these communities that doesn't really know what is happening in the GNOME Project.
\n\nSo, having to bring in diversity, bringing in somebody like myself, community like myself, into the GNOME Project, what this means is that there will be more opportunities for GNOME to evolve around what they have in the previous years into something that is more global, something that is more inclusive, you know, a project that allows people to become contributors and designers of the GNOME shell.
\n\nSo, I would say this: when I got into the board...this is my second time in the board. We've had several discussions around how to bring in diversity into the GNOME Project and also allow users, newcomers to feel welcomed in the GNOME Project. And that is a discussion and an action that is basically progressive here.
\n\nWe are having these conversations because I have now come into the project. There is now space for the GNOME Project to see that we need to be more inclusive. We need to be more diverse in our approach, in our design, in the basically way we listen to users right now. So, this was not the case before I came in. So, it's basically just allowing more diversity into the GNOME Project.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And I think there's been a lot of studies and evidence that have shown that projects and companies with more inclusive and more diverse voices perform better business-wise afterwards. So, it's not only, like, a moral imperative but just smart business decisions.
\n\nREGINA: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm curious, as a community organizer myself [chuckles], what surprised you about the early stages of starting up this community in Africa, or maybe even joining the board of this community now that you've become there? Anything that surprised you in the process there?
\n\nREGINA: I think one of the first things that surprised me is that it was more like I was the only one that knows that GNOME exists [laughs]. So, it's me having to first always explain, giving onboarding sections to newcomers to basically explain to them what the GNOME Project is, and doing multiple demos to show how the GNOME desktop works within Linux.
\n\nAnd I thought that people would just know these things and people would just understand how the Linux project works. So, that basically surprised me because I had to always have to...even up until now, I always have to more, like, introduce, guide, and explain what GNOME is and help users to basically or newcomers basically decide if it is something that they will want to contribute to, right? So, that's one thing that surprised me.
\n\nAnd I think the second thing that surprised me was mainly about when I came into the GNOME Project; for a project that global, I thought that there would be some certain level of diversity around the projects. And I thought that I would see more of people like myself or more of people from maybe, you know, Asia or something like that. But I realized that that wasn't the case.
\n\nInstead, I remember when I was being introduced to the project, I was introduced to other two Africans, and that made us three. And it was shocking for me that there was less presence for Africans within the GNOME Project. And I think that's one of the basic motivation for me to build a community in Africa and to see that they know that a project like GNOME exists.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that, and it reminds me of when I was running DevOps groups with Women Who Code and DevOps DC, how frequently you have to do just a 101, like, a 101, like, here's the basics. Here's the introduction. And getting really good at that and just knowing you're going to have to keep doing that and to bring in new people. Yeah, that's interesting; that was the point for you.
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\n\nVICTORIA: I'm curious; maybe we can dive more into open source in general and how it can be more inclusive and more diverse. Because I think what I see with open source is, you know, often, it's people doing maintenance on their own free time. They're not getting paid for it. And, of course, there's all the existing access and issues with enabling women to be more into technology careers. So, I'm curious if you have anything else that you think we should talk about with open source and how to make it more inclusive and have more voices at the table.
\n\nREGINA: One of the things here is...and I feel like discussion there is a progressive discussion as open-source communities begin to grow, open-source ecosystem continues to grow. So, one of the things here is, basically, having programs that is geared towards under-representation people within the open-source ecosystem. And this program, I feel like, should be a program that encourages some certain level of incentives, you know, stipends for people that are going to be contributing.
\n\nBecause, like I said, in the past, open source has thrived more within Europe and the U.S. area. But in these areas, there are certain levels of opportunities that is presented. It's either the maintainer has good jobs, or they have projects that pays them on the side. So, they could easily give their free time to open-source contribution.
\n\nBut looking at the economy side of things and problems we have within areas like Africa and Asia, if you see people contributing or you want people to contribute to open source, there must be some other level of motivations that would get them to basically contribute to your project. So, there are programs like Outreachy. Outreachy is basically a program that helps women to contribute to open source, and they are paid a certain level of stipends at the end of three months, at the end of their contribution.
\n\nWe need to have more of such programs to encourage inclusive contribution into open source-projects. Because this way, we get more people that would not necessarily have an opportunity to become open-source contributors to come in to contribute. And also, [inaudible 18:29] more diverse voices in the open-source ecosystem.
\n\nAnother thing here is also that we need to also talk about one of the problems within open source at the moment, which is that we have less women representation, and I'm very glad you're very deep within community and Women Who Code as well. So, you will basically relate with this one. So, there are less women within the open-source ecosystem. And even the women that are contributing––they have challenges within the ways they are treated amongst maintenance. They have challenges even with how to prioritize what they are doing and to be able to also give their time to open source.
\n\nSo, these all challenges we need to begin to, you know, address them by giving voices to women within open source and helping them to solve some of these problems that they have within, you know, the communities that they are serving in.
\n\nAnother thing is to have representation in leadership, and I really cannot stress this enough. When I mean representation, it's having more women leaders because this is where the gap is here at the moment. I think the Linux Foundation had a particular research; I'm not very sure about the year. But it shows that we have about 93% of men in the open-source ecosystem, and that tells you what is left of women, you know, the percentage of women that we have within the open-source ecosystem. So, there's a whole lot of work we need to do to bring in more inclusiveness, to bring in more women into the open-source ecosystem. I'm not particularly sure about the exact statistics for that research, but I know it's around that range.
\n\nAnother thing is that we should encourage communities, open-source communities, to have separate channels where diverse voices can basically have their views about their community, so whether it is having to have a pool of questions geared towards, how do you think we are diverse? How diverse are we in this community? What can we do better? You know, taking metrics of your community is one way we can also bring in inclusivity into the open-source ecosystem.
\n\nOne of the last thing here that I would mention is events also––open-source events, has to also be conscious around people that are attending their events, around the different races, the different genders. This matrix needs to be taken to basically help to solve and bring more inclusivity into open-source community and open-source events.
\n\nVICTORIA: You raised a lot of really great points there. And I won't even try to recap them all because I think I'll miss them [laughs]. But I think you're spot on with everything. It resonates with me, especially, like, working through Women Who Code; what you'll see is there's lots of people interested in joining. There's a drop-off rate around the mid-level of your career because of some of the things that you mentioned, the way that they're treated in the environments and in the communities, and not seeing a path forward to leadership. So, I think you're spot on with everything that you said there.
\n\nAnd I'm curious; I want to make sure we make time to also talk about OpenKids Africa and your founding of that. And what was the goal or the idea behind it?
\n\nREGINA: The idea behind it was basically my journey into tech. If you recall, I said I started my journey into tech after my bachelor's degree in public administration. And I felt like I could have done more with technology if I was aware about technology a bit more earlier in life.
\n\nSo, I wanted to create something and to build something that would give children an opportunity to have better career choices and possibly become technologists, or software engineer, or robotics engineer, or developers in future. But giving them the opportunity to know that this set of careers exist and they could actually make their choices from it.
\n\nSo, I grew up in Nigeria, like I said. And at the time I grew up, the trending careers were doctors, engineers, lawyers. And my parents actually wanted me to be a lawyer because, at the time, they believed that I was very good at arguments [chuckles]. I could argue a lot. And that basically quickly transcends to I can be a better lawyer. And also because lawyers, in those times, lawyers were very respected in the society. Now, don't get me wrong, lawyers are still respected. But at that time, it felt as though being a lawyer or being a doctor is the only way you're ever going to have a career in Nigeria.
\n\nHaving to feel like I disappointed my parents because I couldn't get into law...I had a diploma. I did a diploma in law program, but I did not get into my degree. So, I had to do something close, which was the public administration I took. Having to go through those whole process in my career and then finish my bachelor's and realizing that I was a bit better in a technology career, I felt like it was a bit late for me and that I would have taken a better chance at my career choices if I had known about technologies earlier.
\n\nSo, this is the motivation of creating OpenKids Africa is basically giving children an opportunity to know what they can do with technology, to know how technology cuts across different careers, and to make them realize that technology is no longer an option in your career choices; it's something that needs to be part of your career journey, whether they want to become doctors, whether they want to become technologists in future. Whatever they want to become, they need to have this basic foundation to thrive. So, that's basically what brought about OpenKids Africa.
\n\nAnd my target is basically children in rural communities. And so, we are teaching children in rural communities several skills: how to code, how to understand basically foundational courses within technology. Recently, we went to different schools and giving them an experience of how virtual reality looks like. And it was really fun for these children because, like I said, they are in rural communities. They don't even have these opportunities in the first place, and except it is provided to them here. So, that's basically what we're doing. We're giving children in rural community an opportunity to experience technology and to make better career choices in the future.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And so, you found that the kids are really excited about learning about computers. Do you feel that the parents agree that technology is a good path for them to follow and study?
\n\nREGINA: Well, I think that that's another part of OpenKids Africa. So, when I started OpenKids Africa, I wanted to explore the rural community and understand, basically, what are the unique cases that we have here? So that's part of those...I was exploring, basically. We found that some of the children would tell us that, "I like this, but my mom or my parent would not allow me to do this. They will not allow me to know how to use computers or to become maybe a technologist in future because my mom or my dad thinks I should be a doctor," and all of that.
\n\nSo, we had to remodel our strategy in a way that we now go to parents' associations in schools in rural communities. And we talk to them about technology, benefits of technology, and how they can encourage their children to learn technology, and also the future career choices for their children. And when we do this, when we speak to parents, we see the excitement of "Oh, so, my child can actually become this with this technology thing." And we also give them safety measures because, of course, there's so many things on the internet here. And there's safety tips for parents to know about, even if they want to allow their children to basically use computers and all of that, child control and all of those things.
\n\nSo, by talking to parents, we've realized that we have to have a two-model approach in OpenKids Africa, where we don't just teach the children and encourage the teachers to learn more about technology, but we also have to talk to the parents to allow their children to basically explore technology careers in the future, and also, showing them the opportunities that it will pose to them. So yeah, to be honest, this is one of the surprising things that I found, and it has continued to surprise me as a founder of OpenKids.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, that's, I think, a very common thing for founders is that you think you have one set of users, but there's actually another one [laughs] where it impacts you.
\n\nREGINA: Exactly. Exactly [laughs].
\n\nVICTORIA: That's wonderful. Are you excited about on the horizon with either the GNOME Project or OpenKids Africa?
\n\nREGINA: I will start with the GNOME Project. Right now, we are looking towards things like the Global Inclusive Initiative. And it's basically an initiative that we are looking to put together all the communities we have globally, giving more voices to diverse users to be able to contribute into GNOME. That is something on the pipeline that we're looking to plan.
\n\nAnd I'm also excited for OpenKids Africa. So, right now, we are exploring how to get teachers in rural communities involved with what we're doing and basically train them separately as well to know the benefit of technology to children. So, the target teachers here are teachers that basically...early child education teachers and helping them to understand how to teach technology to children, and how to inspire children to appreciate technology innovation we have around the world, innovations like virtual reality, you know, robotics, and all of that.
\n\nSo, I'm really excited about that one because I feel like if you can tell the teachers how these things are and the benefits, and then they can better pass the message across to the children, making our work more easier when we have workshops and demos to do in schools, yeah.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I've actually gotten this question quite a few times from people, which is, how do you get kids interested in learning [laughs] technology and learning how to code?
\n\nREGINA: I think it's basically having a practice that is more child-friendly, co-creative. So, co-creation is basically, you are not the only one doing it. You're involving the children in it as well, and you give them the real-life experiences. So, for instance, when we went to talk about virtual reality to children, and we showed them what virtual reality does in the presentation, we engage with the kids. We make them give us their own ideas.
\n\nWe even go as far as allowing them to draw what they see and give us what they think about it. But we don't stop there. We get virtual sets and show them exactly...give them a real-life experience of what virtual reality is. So, children are very, very creative, and they also have a very fast mind to pick pictures. But not only that, they can also store experiences very, very fast. So, we utilize every area that makes children excited in our workshops. After we are done, we do practices, and we give them gifts as well for engaging in those practices. So yeah, we just co-creation [laughs].
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow. And you're doing so much because you have a full-time job. You're on the board for GNOME Project, and you have your non-profit, OpenKids Africa. So, how do you find a right balance in your life of work, and extra stuff, and your regular life [laughs]?
\n\nREGINA: Honestly, I would say that the word balance I wouldn't use balance for me at the moment because I feel like I've not basically found the balance I'm looking for, but I've been able to prioritize. So, what that means is that I've been able to know what is important part-time and know when to take certain engagements. So, my full-time job is more, like, a priority right now because, of course, we need a job to be able to sustain our lives. So, I take that as my priority.
\n\nAnd I have different schedule of days for other things like the GNOME community and working with my team in OpenKids Africa. So, I would say I'm quite lucky to have a very good team. And also, being part of GNOME board, the commitments are not as demanding as you would expect, you know, maybe a regular board. There are fixed schedules on things, and they have flexible time for contribution as well.
\n\nI'm also part of the GNOME Africa community. And I recently just on-boarded a community manager because I realized that I need more, like, to take a step back so that I don't get burned out and all of that. So, I think it's basically prioritizing for me at the moment to gain the balance that I'm looking for. So, I think if I have a conversation with you maybe months after now, I would be able to know what balance feels like. So, I'm really experimenting with prioritizing at the moment.
\n\nVICTORIA: We'll have to check back in in a few months and see how things are going. But I think that's a very honest answer, and I appreciate that. And I think that probably relates to how a lot of people feel, honestly, even having less on their plate that it's hard to find that balance. So, I appreciate you sharing that. And I wonder, too, if you had any advice for yourself. If you could go back in time, either when you were first starting on your journey or when you were first starting on either of these projects, what advice would you give yourself?
\n\nREGINA: I think one of the things...I will talk about first starting on my technology career. I didn't have the opportunities that many young people had at the time because I didn't come from a background where my parents had the finances to basically give me the opportunity to learn technology the way I wanted to. But, I was able to make do with the resources I had at the time to learn and to basically grow.
\n\nSo, an advice I will give to my younger self and to anybody that wants to come into technology that do not have the resources, I would say leverage open-source tools as much as you can because now I realize that that's basically what helped me. And also, allow yourself to grow; it will always get better.
\n\nAdvice I would give to somebody coming into an open-source project like me at the GNOME Project. I think that one of the things that...understand why you're contributing to that project, and always seek to be treated fairly, always seek to be treated nicely. And also treat other people nicely and fairly as well. I think if we have these both balance, we'll have a better, healthy community within open source. And don't be scared to share your view. Don't be scared to basically be yourself wherever you are found in the community that you're representing.
\n\nAnd if I would like to add: OpenKids Africa, for me, if anyone would be...it's, I would say, it's still young because we are going, I think, about our third year now. So, I will say it's still young. But what I would say to any founder that wants to basically found a non-profit or do something in the society, I think, is just to get your motivation, understand why you're doing them, and be open-minded to what you'll learn along the way. That's it.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think that's great. Yeah, I love that. And I like that you mentioned that there are open-source tools out there. I'm trying to use those more, and I think I always try to iterate that for people, too, is, like, there's free training. There's free resources. There's free tools. And there are lots of people who want to see you succeed, no matter your background, or where you're from, or what you look like. So, I think that that's a really powerful message. So, I appreciate that. And do you have anything else that you would like to promote?
\n\nREGINA: I think before that, I would like to learn more about the Women Who Code. As a community builder, what basically surprised you the most?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. So, what I loved about Women Who Code is that it was really aimed at helping women get started in careers in technology and maintaining careers in technology. So, I think what was interesting for me...I think I started doing it back in 2017 or 2018, and I just loved it. I loved going to a tech meetup with a room where it's all women [laughs]. Because, normally, and I'm sure you've had this experience, you go to a tech meetup, and you're maybe one of two, at the best, of women in the group. I just really enjoyed that.
\n\nAnd I've been really surprised and happy to see how the women, including myself, who started running the meetups, and doing trainings, and helping other women learn how to code have really advanced in their career and become directors, or engineering managers, or really senior contributors in different companies. So, I think that that was a really interesting and surprising thing for people is, like, well, if you want to grow in your career, it helps to be active in your community and to be someone that people know and to have those connections.
\n\nAnd I think it still surprises me to this day how my network that I got from investing in all of those meetups and all that time is still paying off [laughs]. Like, I could still, like, reach back into my network and find someone who is an expert on a particular subject or works at a company that I want to talk to or something like that. So, I think that that's been a really wonderful aspect of it.
\n\nREGINA: Wow, that's quite interesting. And I really think, also I agree with you. One of the beautiful things around communities and meetups is basically networks, the people that you get to meet, the people that you get to know along the way.
\n\nVICTORIA: Absolutely. Yeah, and those are the people that you want to keep working with. So, it helps you find jobs. It helps you find people to hire if you're hiring. It's worth it. Like [laughs], it can feel like, ugh, am I really going to go to this meetup [laughter], like, after work, after a long day? And, you know, maybe the topic is even something I'm not interested in. But it does pay off if you keep showing up and continue to invest in it. Yeah, I think that's smart.
\n\nAnd make people feel safe, too. I think that was a big part of it is, you know, going to a meetup and meeting someone maybe like me who's nice and friendly and wants to hear your voice. I think that has a big impact for people, especially if they're, you know, the only woman at their company. And now they have a whole set of friends [laughs]. That's, yeah, how powerful that can be for people.
\n\nREGINA: Exactly. Exactly. And you just said one of the most important things, and that's basically making people feel safe, making them welcomed as well. Interesting. Thank you for sharing that one because I was quite curious, and I wanted to really learn more.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I'm very lucky. And we actually had the CEO and founder of Women Who Code on our podcast lately. So, you're in good company [laughs].
\n\nREGINA: Nice.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, it's wonderful. Do you have any other questions for me?
\n\nREGINA: My last question, and I'm going to be asking again that I will be inviting you on my podcast as well [inaudible 37:32] [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes. Of course, yes. Absolutely. Send me the details. I'd be happy to join.
\n\nAll right. Well, thank you so much again for joining us. I really appreciate your time.
\n\nAnd for our listeners, you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
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We released episode one of this podcast on June 11, 2012. Now, more than a decade later, we're celebrating the 500th episode of our show. In honor of this milestone, Victoria, Will, and Chad caught up with each of the past hosts of the show: Ben Orenstein, Chris Toomey, and Lindsey Christensen.
\n\nWe chatted about what they’re up to now, what they liked and learned from hosting the show, their time at thoughtbot, and more!
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido.
\n\nWILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry.
\n\nCHAD: And I'm your other host, Chad Pytel.
\n\nWe released episode one of this podcast on June 11, 2012. Now more than a decade later, were celebrating this: the 500th episode of our show. In honor of this milestone, Victoria, Will, and I caught up with each of the past hosts of the show: Ben Orenstein, Chris Toomey, and Lindsey Christensen.
\n\nWe chatted about what they’re up to now, what they liked and learned from hosting the show and their time at thoughtbot, and more. First up: Ben Orenstein. Ben was the very first host of the show back in 2012 when he was a developer at thoughtbot. He is now the co-founder and Head of Product at Tuple, a remote pair programming tool for designers and developers. Ben, it's great to talk to you again. It's been a while since you and I talked. How have you been?
\n\nBEN: I've been decent, yeah. It's fun to be back to my roots a little bit. I told some folks that I work with that I was coming back to the pod for the 500th Episode, and they were stoked. So, it's kind of a treat to get to be on these airwaves again.
\n\nCHAD: What have you been up to since you left this show and thoughtbot?
\n\nBEN: Well, I started a company. So, I was at thoughtbot for a while; I think it was seven years. And I eventually sort of struck out to start my own thing–had a false start or two here and there. And then, I ended up starting a company called Tuple, and we still exist today, fortunately.
\n\nTuple is a tool for doing remote pair programming. We started off on macOS and then wrote a Linux client. And we're launching a Windows client now. But it's sort of, like, screen sharing with remote control for developers who are actually writing code and want to have great, low latency remote control and who care about screen share quality and that sort of thing.
\n\nI started that about five years ago with two co-founders. Today, we are a team of 11, I think it is. And it's been going well. Our timing was really great, it turned out. We launched a little bit before COVID. So, remote work turned into a lot more of a thing, and we were already in the market. So, that helped us a ton. It was quite a wild ride there for a bit.
\n\nBut things have calmed down a little lately, but it's still fun. I'm, like, really enjoying being a co-founder of a software company. It was what I've always sort of wanted to do. And it turns out it actually is pretty fun and pretty great. Although there are, of course, the ups and downs of business ownership. It is never quite as calm or relaxing as being an employee somewhere else.
\n\nCHAD: You started Tuple instigated by...full disclosure: thoughtbot's an early customer of Tuple. We're still a customer. We use it a lot.
\n\nBEN: Woo-hoo. I appreciate that. Thank you.
\n\nCHAD: If I remember right, you started and were sort of instigated to create Tuple because there was a prior product that then Slack bought, and then it started to degrade. And now, it no longer exists in the same way that it did before.
\n\nBEN: Yeah. So, there was this tool called Screenhero, which I actually started using --
\n\nCHAD: [inaudible 02:14]
\n\nBEN: Yeah, first at thoughtbot. Some other thoughtboter introduced me to it, and we would use it for pair programming. And I was like, oh, this is nice. And then yeah, Slack kind of acqui-hired it and more or less ended up shutting the product down. And so, there was this gap in the market. And I would ask my friends, I would ask thoughtboters and other developers, like, "What are you using now that Screenhero is gone?" And no one had a good answer.
\n\nAnd so, after a while of this thing sort of staring me in the face, I was like, we have to try to solve this need. There's clearly a hole in the market. Yeah, so we were heavily inspired by them in the early days. Hopefully, we've charted our own path now. But they were definitely...the initial seed was, you know, let's do Screenhero but try to not get bought early or something.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] How did you or did you feel like you captured a lot of the Screenhero customers and reached them in those early days?
\n\nBEN: I think so. The pitch for it was sort of shockingly easy because Screenhero had kind of blazed this trail. Like, I would often just be like, "Oh, we're making a thing. Do you remember Screenhero?" And they'd go, "Oh yeah, I loved Screenhero". I'd be like, "Yeah, we're going to try to do that." And they'd be like, "Nice. Sign me up." So, it for sure helped a ton. I have no idea what percentage of customers we converted. And they were a pretty large success, so probably a small fraction, but it definitely, like, made the initial days much easier.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. And then, like you said, COVID happened.
\n\nBEN: COVID happened, yeah. I think we had been around for about a year when COVID hit. So, we were getting our feet underneath us. And we were already, like, the company was already growing at a pretty good rate, and we were feeling pretty good about it. I don't think we had quite hit ramen profitable, but we were probably pretty close or, like, flirting with it.
\n\nYeah, the business, like, I don't know, tripled or quadrupled in a matter of months. We had a few big customers that, like, just told everyone to start using Tuple. So, we had, like, thousands and thousands of new users kind of immediately. So, it was a crazy time. Everything melted, of course. We hadn't quite engineered for that much scale. We had a really rough day or so as we scrambled, but fortunately, we got things under control. And then had this, like, very nice tailwind.
\n\nBecause we started the company assuming that remote work would grow. We assumed that there would be more remote developers every year. And, you know, it's probably maybe 5% of dev jobs are remote or maybe even less, but we expect to see this number creeping up. We don't think that trend will reverse. And so, COVID just, like, it just yanked it, you know, a decade in the future.
\n\nCHAD: You haven't tripled or quadrupled your team size, have you?
\n\nBEN: No. Well, I mean, I guess, I mean, we started as 3, and now we're 11, so kind of.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] Yeah, that's true.
\n\nBEN: Expenses have not grown as fast as revenue, fortunately.
\n\nCHAD: That's good. That's basically what I was asking [laughs].
\n\nBEN: Yeah, yeah. We're still a pretty small team, actually. We have only, like, four or five full-time engineers on the team at the moment, which is kind of wild because we are now, you know, we have three platforms to support: Linux, Windows, and Mac. It's a pretty complicated app doing, like, real-time streaming of audio, webcams, desktops, caring about OS-level intricacies.
\n\nSo, I think we will be hiring more people soon, although we haven't said that for a long time. We sort of have always had a bit of a hire-slow mentality to try to get the right team members and, like, feel a real pain before we hire someone into it. But we have been getting a bit more aggressive with hiring lately.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, I really appreciate Tuple. I installed it when I first started working here at thoughtbot. And we have random pairings with everyone across the company. So, I'll randomly get to meet someone halfway across the world who's working on similar projects. And I think they really enjoy that I have a tool they like working to share what they're working on. So, I want to thank you for that.
\n\nAnd I'm curious about when you really started to scale during COVID, what were some of the technology architecture trade-offs you came across, and where did you land with it?
\n\nBEN: Well, we got fairly...I don't know if it was lucky, but we...for a long time, for years, even through COVID, maybe the first four years of the company, all Tuple calls were purely peer-to-peer. And there was no server that we owned intermediating things. This was, like, kind of one of the keys of, like, not having expenses. The scale of revenue was we could have lots more calls happen. And it wouldn't cost us bandwidth or server capacity.
\n\nTo this day, still, for any calls with three or fewer participants, they're purely peer-to-peer. And this is nice for latency purposes because it just...we can find the most direct path to the internet between two people. It's also nice from our cost perspective because we don't need to pay to send that data. And that was hugely useful as call volume went up immensely. Didn't have to worry too much about server load and didn't have to worry too much about bandwidth costs.
\n\nCHAD: Today, is there a central service that makes the initial connection for people?
\n\nBEN: Yes, yeah, yeah. So, there is a signaling server. So, when you launch the app, you sign in, and you see, like, oh, which of my co-workers are online? So, there is actually a Rails app that handles that, actually, increasingly less the Rails app. We have now...I think it's a Go service that actually manages all those. I'm further and further from the code every year. Some of the technical questions might be a little bit beyond me, or I might have slightly out-of-date info.
\n\nBut back to the architecture question for a second, we did a pretty big refactor when we decided to go from just being a Mac client to supporting other platforms, where we split out a cross-platform real-time communication engine written in C++ so that we could use that for all of the heavy lifting, all the managing of the connections, and the tricky bandwidth estimation, and all this stuff, and use that across different platforms. And so, today, you have the cross-platform engine, and then on top of that is a, like, a less specific layer for each of the operating systems that we support.
\n\nCHAD: So, you mentioned you're less and less in the code these days. So, what do you spend your time doing then?
\n\nBEN: It's a mix of things. These days, it's basically mostly --
\n\nCHAD: Just cocktails on the beach, right?
\n\nBEN: Cocktails, yes [laughs], cocktails on the beach, appearing on podcasts trying to sound important and impressive, yeah. Mostly product work. So, right before this, I just got off a call with some folks from The Browser Company. They are some of our first alpha users for our new Windows clients. So, I hopped on the call with them and, like, watched three of them install the product and inevitably run into some bugs. And, you know, chatted through those with the engineer that was working on it, prioritized some stuff, made some decisions about what's coming up next, and what we're going to ignore. So, mostly product work these days.
\n\nFor the first five years of the company, I was CEO, so I was doing kind of everything: marketing, and also hiring, and also product. About two months ago, I stepped down as CEO, and one of my other co-founders, Spencer, stepped up. And so, now my focus has narrowed to be mostly just product stuff and much less on the marketing or hiring side.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, you mentioned that it was a little more comfortable to be an employee than to be a founder. I don't know if you could say more about that because, certainly, a lot of engineers are smart enough and capable enough to run their own company. But what really informed your choice there, and do you regret it? [laughs]
\n\nBEN: I definitely don't regret it. thoughtbot was a close second in terms of wonderful professional experiences. But running my own thing has been the most interesting professional thing I've done by a big margin. It has also been more stressful. And, Chad, I don't know if you remember, I think, like, maybe eight years ago, you tweeted something like, if you want to sleep well at night, and, like, value that, like, peace of mind, like, don't start a company or something. I have experienced that.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nBEN: A lot more, yeah, like waking up in the middle of the night worrying about things. It feels a little bit like the highs are higher; the lows are lower. Being an employee somewhere, it's like, if this company fails, I know I can go get another job, right? Like, you're a developer. You're extremely employable. But as the owner of the company, if the company fails, like, a huge chunk of your net worth is gone. Like, this thing you poured your life into is gone. It's way more stressful and traumatic to have that happen, or have that threatened to be happening, or just imagine that happening.
\n\nSo, overall, I have found the trade-off to be totally worth it. It's awesome to make your own decisions and chart your own path. And when it works, it can work in a way that being a salaried employee can't. So, I'm happy with those trade-offs. But I think that is a good question for people to ask themselves as they consider doing something like this is, like: is that the kind of trade-off that you want to make? Because it has significant downsides for sure.
\n\nWILL: I am a big fan of Tuple also. I love it. It [inaudible 10:08] easy, especially with remote work. You hit the jackpot with COVID and remote work, so kudos for that [laughs]. Was there anything...because I know from our previous companies, about over...hopefully a lot more of the good stuff than the bad stuff. But was there anything that you learned? Because you were at thoughtbot for seven years. Was there anything that you're like, oh my gosh, I learned that, and it's helped me till this day while I'm running my company?
\n\nBEN: Yeah, quite a bit, actually. I think it'd be hard to tease apart exactly which lessons, but I do...so I ran Upcase for thoughtbot and also FormKeep. So, I got a chance to kind of run a small division of the company, while still being a normal employee and, like, having not much of that risk. And I think that was a really wonderful opportunity for me to, like, practice the skills that I was interested in. Just, like, how do you market a thing? How do you design a product and have it be good? How do you prioritize user feedback?
\n\nThere were a ton of lessons from those days that I feel like made me better at running our company when we actually took a shot at it. So, there were, like, the specific things that I learned by the work I was doing there. But then just, like, I mean, I think I am the programmer I am today because of, like, the weekly dev discussions that happened.
\n\nLike, spending so much time with Joe Ferris and, like, trying to copy as much of his brain as possible, like, really, like, imprinted on me as, like, a programmer. And also, just, like, a lot of the sort of cultural things from my time at thoughtbot of, like, you should be sharing the things you're learning. Like, writing blog posts is a great use of time. Like, doing open-source work is a great use of time.
\n\nAnd maybe you can't directly trace how doing, like, working in public or sharing information benefits the company. It's hard to, like, attribute it from a marketing sense. But if you sort of have faith that in the large, it's going to work out, it probably will. That feels like a thoughtbot lesson to me, and I think it has served us really well; where I recorded a weekly podcast for a long time called The Art of Product. I'm recording a new podcast called Hackers Incorporated with Adam Wathan of Tailwind fame.
\n\nAnd I don't ever think, like, hmm, how many new leads do we think we get per episode, and how many hours has that taken? What's the ROI? I just have this sort of reflex that I developed from thoughtbot time of, like, you should be putting stuff out there, or you should be giving back. You should help other people. And that will probably help your business and make it work in the long term.
\n\nCHAD: That's a good lesson [laughs]. One of the other things, you know, while you were a host of Giant Robots, you were the first host. I remember, you know, encouraging you to be the first host, and I think we talked about that in one of the episodes along the way. But we also transitioned the format a little bit, especially as you started to work on products here; you know, it was more about the building of those products and following along with those.
\n\nAnd one of the things that sort of half-jokingly defined, I think, your impact on a lot of products was pricing, experimenting with pricing, learning about pricing, increasing prices more than people were maybe comfortable doing so. How has that worked out with Tuple, pricing in particular?
\n\nBEN: It's really hard to say. It's hard to know what, like, the other path would have been through the world-. We sort of decided from, like, the early days that we wanted to have, like, a fairly premium price. Like, we wanted to be the product that was really good and was, like, a little bit annoyingly expensive, but you still paid for it because it felt worth it. And I think people could debate in both directions whether we nailed that or not.
\n\nWe have had a price increase that we ended up rolling back. We went, like, a little too far one time and said, "You know what? I think we're a little bit over," and we reverted that. But I would say even today, we are still a fairly pricey product. I mean, I'm pretty happy with how the company has done. I can't prove to you that, like, if the price were half what it is, we would have, you know, better success or not.
\n\nCHAD: I think it'd be very hard to make the argument that if it was half that, you would have double the number of customers.
\n\nBEN: Yeah, that's probably not true.
\n\nCHAD: Not with the customers that you have, who are companies that will pay for products that they use as much as Tuple.
\n\nBEN: Yeah, I'm happy serving the kind of companies, and they end up being mostly tech companies that really value developer happiness. When their developers come to them and they say, "We don't want to pair over Zoom. We like this thing. It's better. It feels nicer to use," they say, "Okay," and they buy the tool for them. There are places where that's not the case. And they say, "We already have a thing that does screen sharing. You're not allowed to buy this." We don't invest a lot of time trying to sell to those people or convince them that they're wrong. And I'm pretty happy serving sort of the first group.
\n\nCHAD: So, you've mentioned that you've still been podcasting. To be honest, I didn't realize you were starting something new. Is it live now?
\n\nBEN: It is live now, yeah.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. Where can people find that?
\n\nBEN: hackersincorporated.com. It's about the transition from developer to founder, which is kind of what we've been touching on here. Yeah, hopefully, the audience is developers who want to start something or have started something who are maybe a little bit further behind progression-wise.
\n\nAnd it's kind of, like, I have some lessons, and Adam has some lessons, and, you know, we don't think that we're experts. But sometimes it's useful to just hear, like, two people's story and sort of see, like, what seemingly has worked for them. So, we've been trying to share things there. And I think people will find it useful.
\n\nVICTORIA: I was going to ask you for a lesson, maybe give us a little sample about how would you advise someone who's built a product and wants to market it, and it's targeted towards developers since you mentioned that previously as well.
\n\nBEN: Yeah, in a way, the question already contains a problem. It's like, oh, I built the product; now how do I market it? It's a little bit indicative of a very common failure mode for developers, which is that. They sort of assume, okay, after you make the product, you then figure out how you're going to market it. And marketing is sort of a thing you layer on later on when you realize that just, like, throwing it on Twitter or Product Hunt didn't really work.
\n\nWhen we started building Tuple, I was out there marketing it already. So, I had two co-founders, so this is a luxury I had. My two co-founders were writing code, and I was out doing stuff. I was recording podcasts. I was tweeting about things. I was making videos. I was giving conference talks. And I was getting people to hear about our product well before it was done. In fact, I was even selling it. I was taking pre-orders for annual subscriptions to the app while it was still vaporware.
\n\nSo, I would say, like, you basically can't start marketing too early. If you start marketing early and no one really cares, well, then you don't really have to build it probably. I would actually even go a little further and say, like, I started marketing Tuple before we had a product available. But in reality, I started marketing Tuple seven or so years before that when I started publishing things through thoughtbot.
\n\nIt's like when I was traveling around giving talks about Ruby, and when I was making screencasts about Vim, and when I was running Upcase, I was, over time, building an audience. And that audience was useful for thoughtbot, and it also was useful for me so that when I left, I had something like 10,000 Twitter followers or something, a few thousand people on our mailing list.
\n\nBut there were a lot of developers that already sort of knew me and trusted me to make fairly good things. And so, when I said, "Hey, I've made a new thing, and it's for you," I really benefited from those years of making useful content and trying to be useful on the internet. And in the early days, we had people sign up, and they would say, "I don't even really think I'm going to use this. But I've learned so much from you over the years that I want to support you, so I'm going to pay for a subscription."
\n\nVICTORIA: I like your answer because I think the same thing when people ask me, like, because I am an organizer for Women Who Code, and I know all these great people from showing up for years in person months over months. And so, then people will ask, "Oh, how do I recruit more women in my company?" I'm like, "Well, you got to start showing up [laughs] now and do that for a couple of years, and then maybe people will trust you," right? So, I really like that answer.
\n\nWILL: How has your relationship with Chad continued to grow since you left? Because seven years at the company is a lot. And it seems like you're still on really, really good terms, and you're still friends. And I know that doesn't happen at every company.
\n\nBEN: I mean, it was tough deciding to leave. I think, like, both of us felt pretty sad about it. That was the longest I'd ever worked anywhere, and I really enjoyed the experience. So, I think it was tough on both sides, honestly. But we haven't kept in that much touch since then. I think we've emailed a handful of times here and there. We're both sociable people, and we sort of get each other. And there's a long history there. So, I think it's just easy for us to kind of drop back into a friendly vibe is sort of how I feel about it.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. And the way I explain it to people, you know, when you're leading a company, which Ben and I both are, you put a lot of energy into that and to the people who are on that team. If you're doing things right, there's not really hard feelings when someone leaves. But you need to put in a lot of effort to keep in touch with people outside of the company and a lot of energy. And, to be honest, I don't necessarily do as good a job with that as I would like because it's a little bit higher priority to maintain relationships with them, the people who are still at thoughtbot and who are joining.
\n\nBEN: What you're saying is I'm dead to you [laughter]. That's CEO, for you're dead to me.
\n\nCHAD: No. It's just...no hard feelings.
\n\nBEN: Totally.
\n\nCHAD: I think one of the things that has been great about the show over the years is that we haven't been afraid to change the format, which I think has been important to keeping it going. So, there is sort of; in fact, the website now is organized into seasons. And I went back and re-categorized all the episodes into seasons. And when the seasons were made up of, like, sort of the format of the show or particular hosts...when we started, it was just an interview show, and it was largely technical topics.
\n\nAnd then we started The Bike Shed, and the technical topics sort of moved over there. But it also went with your interests more under the product and business side. Then you started working on products at thoughtbot, so it started to go even more in that. And I think Chris joined you on the show, and that was sort of all about those topics.
\n\nBEN: Yeah, that makes sense. I think if you don't let the hosts kind of follow their interests, they're going to probably burn out on the thing. It's not fun to force yourself, I think, to record a podcast.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. And then when you left, you know, I took over hosting and hosted by myself for a while, went back to the interview format, but then was joined by Lindsey for a little while. We experimented with a few different things: one, interviews, but then we did a whole, just under a year, where we followed along with three companies. And each month, we would have an interview episode where we talked to them, all three companies, about the same topic.
\n\nAnd then, we also did an episode with just Lindsey and I talking about that topic and about what we learned from the startup companies that we were following along with for the year. And now we're back to interview freeform, different guests, different topics. It seems like we're going to stick with that for a little while. But, obviously, as Will and Victoria have said, like, we'll probably change it again in some way, you know, a year, two years, three years from now.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, and I'm definitely bringing my interest around DevOps and platform engineering, so you'll see more guests who have that focus in their background. And with that, sometimes my interview style is more; how do I ask a question that I can't read from your developer docs and that I might not understand the answer to? [laughs] That's kind of where I like to go with it. So yeah, I'm really excited about...it's probably one of my favorite parts of my job here at thoughtbot because I get to meet so many interesting people. And, hopefully, that's interesting to everyone else [laughs] and our guests, yeah.
\n\nBEN: Totally. Well, I dramatically underestimated how awesome it would be to meet all kinds of cool people in the industry when I started the podcast. I didn't truly connect in my head, like, wait a second, if I have a 45-minute conversation with, like, a lot of prominent, awesome people in our field, that's going to be really interesting and useful for me. So, I think, yeah, it's nice to be in the hosting seat.
\n\nVICTORIA: And it's so surprising how I'll meet someone at a conference, and I'll invite them onto the podcast. And the way it winds up is that whatever we're talking about on the show is directly relevant to what I'm working on or a problem that I have.
\n\nIt's been incredible. And I really appreciate you for coming back for our 500th Episode here.
\n\nCHAD: Ben, thanks very much again for joining us, and congratulations on all the success with Tuple. And I wish you the best.
\n\nBEN: Thank you so much. Thanks for being a continuing customer. I really appreciate it.
\n\nCHAD: Next, we caught up with Chris Toomey, who had a run as co-host of the show with Ben throughout 2016.
\n\nCHRIS: Hi there. Thanks for having me.
\n\nSo, we're talking with all of the past hosts. I know you joined the show, and you were on it with Ben. And then you moved over to The Bike Shed, right?
\n\nCHRIS: Yeah. So, I had co-hosted with Ben for about six months. And then I think I was transitioning off of Upcase, and so that ended sort of the Giant Robots “let's talk about business” podcast tour for me. And then, I went back to consulting for a while. And, at some point, after Derek Prior had left, I took over as the host of The Bike Shed. So, I think there was probably, like, a year and a half, two-year gap in between the various hostings.
\n\nCHAD: Are you doing any podcasting now?
\n\nCHRIS: I'm not, and I miss it. It was a lot of fun. It was, I think, an ideal medium for me. I'm not as good at writing. I tend to over-edit and overthink. But when you get me on a podcast, I just start to say what's in my head, and I tend to not hate it after the fact. So [chuckles], that combination I found to be somewhat perfect for me. But yeah, lacking that in my current day-to-day.
\n\nCHAD: Well, what's been taking up your time since you left?
\n\nCHRIS: I had decided it was time to sort of go exploring, try and maybe join a startup, that sort of thing. I was sort of called in that direction. So, just after I left thoughtbot, I did a little bit of freelancing, but that was mostly to sort of keep the lights on and start to connect with folks and see if there might be an opportunity out there.
\n\nI was able to connect with a former thoughtbot client, Sam Zimmerman, who was looking to start something as well. And so, we put our act together and formed a company called Sagewell, which was trying to build a digital financial platform for seniors, which is a whole bunch of different complicated things to try and string together. So, that was a wonderful experience. I was CTO of that organization. And I think that ran for about two and a half years. Unfortunately, Sagewell couldn't quite find the right sort of sticking point and, unfortunately, shut down a little bit earlier in this year.
\n\nBut that was, I would say, the lion's share of what I have done since leaving thoughtbot, really wonderful experience, got to learn a ton about all of the different aspects of building a startup. And I think somewhat pointedly learned that, like, it's messy, but I think I do like this startup world.
\n\nSo, since leaving Sagewell, I've now joined a company called August Health, which has a couple of ex-thoughtboters there as well. And August is post their Series A. They're a little bit further along in their journey. So, it was sort of a nice continuation of the startup experience, getting to see a company a little bit further on but still with lots of the good type of problems, lots of code to write, lots of product to build. So, excited to be joining them. And yeah, that's mostly what's taking up my time these days.
\n\nCHAD: So, I know at Sagewell, you made a lot of technical architecture, team decisions. It was Rails in the backend, Svelte in the frontend, if I'm not mistaken.
\n\nCHRIS: Yep, that's correct.
\n\nCHAD: You know, hindsight is always 2020. Is there anything you learned along the way, or given how things ended up, that you would do differently?
\n\nCHRIS: Sure. I was really happy with the tech stack that we were able to put together. Svelte was probably the most out there of the choices, I would say, but even that, it was sort of relegated to the frontend. And so, it was a little bit novel for folks coming into the codebase. Most folks had worked in React before but didn't know Svelte. They were able to pick it up pretty quickly.
\n\nBut Inertia.js was actually the core sort of architecture of the app, sort of connected the frontend and the backend, and really allowed us to move incredibly quickly. And I was very, very happy with that decision. We even ended up building our mobile applications, both for iOS and Android. So, we had native apps in both of the stores, but the apps were basically wrappers around the Rails application with a technology similar to Turbolinks native–if folks are familiar with that so, sort of a WebView layer but with some native interactions where you want.
\n\nAnd so, like, we introduced a native login screen on both platforms so that we could do biometric login and that sort of thing. But at the end of the day, most of the screens in the app didn't need to be differentiated between a truly native mobile app and what like, mobile WebView would look like. So, we leaned into that.
\n\nAnd it was incredible just how much we were able to do with that stack and how quickly we were able to move, and also how confidently we were able to move, which was really a nice thing. Having the deep integration between the backend and the frontend really allowed a very small team to get a lot done in a short time.
\n\nCHAD: Does that code live on in any capacity?
\n\nCHRIS: No.
\n\nCHAD: Oh. How does that make you feel?
\n\n[chuckles]
\n\nCHRIS: It makes me feel very sad, I will say. That said, I mean, at the end of the day, code is in service of a business. And so, like, the code...there are, I think, probably a couple of things that we might be able to extract and share. There were some interesting...we did some weird stuff with the serializers and some, like, TypeScript type generation on the frontend that was somewhat novel.
\n\nBut at the end of the day, you know, code is in service of a business, and, unfortunately, the business is not continuing on. So, the code in the abstract is...it's more, you know, the journey that we had along the way and the friends we made and whatnot. But I think, for me, sort of the learnings of I really appreciate this architecture and will absolutely bring it to any new projects that I'm building from, you know, greenfield moving forward.
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm curious what it was like to go from being a consultant to being a big player in a startup and being responsible for the business and the technology. How did that feel for you?
\n\nCHRIS: I would say somewhat natural. I think the consulting experience really lent well to trying to think about not just the technical ramifications but, you know, what's the business impact? How do we structure a backlog and communicate about what features we want to build in what order? How do we, you know, scope a minimal MVP? All those sorts of things were, I think, really useful in allowing me to sort of help shape the direction of the company and be as productive of an engineering team as we could be.
\n\nCHAD: A lot of the projects you worked on at thoughtbot were if not for startups, helping to launch new products. And then, a lot of the work you did at thoughtbot, too, was on Upcase, which was very much building a business.
\n\nCHRIS: Yes. I definitely find myself drawn in that direction, and part of like, as I mentioned, I seem to be inclined towards this startup world. And I think it's that, like, the intersection between tech and business is sort of my sweet spot. I work with a lot of developers who are really interested in getting sort of deeper into the technical layers, or Docker and Kubernetes and orchestration. And I always find myself a little bit resistant to those. I'm like, I mean, whatever. Let's just...let's get something out there so that we can get users on it. And I am so drawn to that side, you know, you need both types of developers critically.
\n\nI definitely find myself drawn to that business side a little bit more than many of the folks that I work with, and helping to bridge that gap and communicate about requirements and all those sort of things. So, definitely, the experience as a consultant really informed that and helped me have sort of a vocabulary and a comfort in those sort of conversations.
\n\nWILL: How did Upcase come about? Because I know I've talked to numerous people who have gone through Upcase. I actually went through it, and I learned a ton. So, how did that come about?
\n\nCHRIS: I think that was a dream in Ben Orenstein's eye. It started as thoughtbot Learn many, many years ago. There was a handful of workshops that had been recorded. And so, there were the video recordings of those workshops that thoughtbot used to provide in person. Ben collected those together and made them sort of an offering on the internet.
\n\nI think Chad, you, and I were on some podcast episode where you sort of talked about the pricing models over time and how that went from, like, a high dollar one-time download to, like, $99 a month to $29 a month, and now Upcase is free. And so, it sort of went on this long journey. But it was an interesting exploration of building a content business of sort of really leaning into the thoughtbot ideal of sharing as much information as possible, and took a couple of different shapes over time.
\n\nThere was the weekly iterations of the video series that would come out each week, as well as the, like, longer format trails, and eventually some exercises and whatnot, but very much an organic sort of evolving thing that started as just a handful of videos and then became much more of a complete platform. I think I hit the high points there. But, Chad, does that all sound accurate to you?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I led the transition from our workshops to Learn, which brought everything together. And then, I stepped away as product manager, and Ben took it the next step to Upcase and really productized it into a SaaS sort of monthly recurring billing model and took it over from there. But it still exists, and a lot of the stuff there is still really good [laughs].
\n\nCHRIS: Yeah, I remain deeply proud of lots of the videos on that platform. And I'm very glad that they are still out there, and I can point folks at them.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that idea that you said about trying to get as much content out there as possible or, like, really overcommunicate. I'm curious if that's also stayed with you as you've moved on to startups, about just trying to get that influence over, like, what you're doing and how you're promoting your work continues.
\n\nCHRIS: I will say one of the experiences that really sticks with me is I had followed thoughtbot for a while before I actually joined. So, I was reading the blog, and I was listening to the podcasts and was really informing a lot of how I thought about building software. And I was so excited when I joined thoughtbot to, like, finally see behind the curtain and see, like, okay, so, what are the insider secrets?
\n\nAnd I was equal parts let down...actually, not equal parts. I was a little bit let down but then also sort of invigorated to see, like, no, no, it's all out there. It's like, the blog and the open-source repos and those sort of...that really is the documentation of how thoughtbot thinks about and builds software. So, that was really foundational for me. But at the same time, I also saw sort of the complexity of it and how much effort goes into it, you know, investment time Fridays, and those sort of things.
\n\nLike, a thoughtbot blog post is not a trivial thing to put up into the world. So many different people were collaborating and working on it. And so, I've simultaneously loved the sharing, and where sharing makes sense, I've tried to do that. But I also recognize the deep cost. And I think for thoughtbot, it's always made sense because it's been such a great mechanism for getting the thoughtbot name out there and for getting clients and for hiring developers.
\n\nAt startups, it becomes a really interesting trade-off of, should we be allocating time to building up sort of a brand in the name and getting ourselves, you know, getting information out there? Versus, should we be just focusing on the work at hand? And most organizations that I've worked with have bias towards certainly less sharing than thoughtbot, but just not much at all. Often, I'll see folks like, "Hey, maybe we should start a blog." And I'm like, "Okay, let's just talk about how much effort that [laughs] actually looks like." And I wonder if I'm actually overcorrected on that, having seen, you know, the high bar that thoughtbot set.
\n\nCHAD: I think it's a struggle. This is one of my [laughs] hot topics or spiels that I can go on. You know, in most other companies, that kind of thing only helps...it only helps in hiring or the people being fulfilled in the work. But at most companies, your product is not about that; that's not what your business is. So, having a more fulfilled engineering team who is easier to hire—don't get me wrong, there are advantages to that—but it doesn't also help with your sales.
\n\nCHRIS: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: And at thoughtbot, our business is totally aligned with the people and what we do as designers and developers. And so, when we improve one, we improve the other, and that's why we can make it work. That is marketing for the product that we actually sell, and that's not the case at a SaaS software company.
\n\nCHRIS: Yes, yeah, definitely. That resonates strongly. I will say, though, on the hiring side, hiring at thoughtbot was always...there was...I won't say a cheat code, but just if someone were to come into the hiring process and they're like, "Oh yeah, I've read the blog. I listen to the podcast," this and that, immediately, you were able to skip so much further into the conversation and be like, "Okay, what do you agree with? What do you disagree with? Like, let's talk." But there's so much.
\n\nBecause thoughtbot put so much out there, it was easy to say, like, "Hey, this is who we are. Do you like that? Is that your vibe?" Whereas most engineering organizations don't have that. And so, you have to try and, like, build that in the context of, you know, a couple of hour conversations in an interview, and it's just so much harder to do. So, again, I've leaned in the direction of not going anywhere near thoughtbot's level of sharing. But the downside when you are hiring, you're like, oh, this is going to be trickier.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. One of the moments that stands out in my mind, and maybe I've told this story before on the podcast, but I'll tell it again. When we opened the New York studio, it was really fast growing and was doing a lot of hiring. And one of the people who had just joined the company a couple of weeks before was doing an interview and rejected the person was able to write an articulate reason why. But it all boiled down to this person is, you know, not a fit for thoughtbot.
\n\nBased on what they were able to describe, I felt very confident with the ability or with the fact that they were able to make that call, even though they had been here only a couple of weeks, because they joined knowing who we were, and what we stand for, and what our culture and our values are, and the way that we do things, and all that kind of thing. And so, yeah, that's definitely a huge benefit to us.
\n\nVICTORIA: I've certainly enjoyed that as well, as someone who hires developers here and also in meeting new companies and organizations when they already know thoughtbot. That's really nice to have that reputation there, coming from my background—some really more scrappier startup kind of consulting agencies.
\n\nBut, you know, I wanted to talk a little bit more about your podcasting experience while you're here. So, I know you were on both The Bike Shed and Giant Robots. Which is the better podcast? [laughter] So, what's your...do you have, like, a favorite episode or favorite moment, or maybe, like, a little anecdote you can share from hosting?
\n\nCHRIS: Well, I guess there's, like, three different eras for me in the podcasting. So, there's Giant Robots with Ben talking more about business stuff, and I think that was really useful. I think it was more of a forcing function on me because I sort of...Both Ben and I were coming on; we were giving honest, transparent summaries of our, like, MRR and stats and how things were growing, and acted as sort of an accountability backstop, which was super useful but also just kind of nerve-wracking.
\n\nThen, when I joined the Bike Shed, the interviewing sequence that I did each week was just a new person that I was chatting with. And I sort of had to ramp them up on, hey, here's a quick summary on how to think about podcasting. Don't worry, it'll be great. Everybody have fun. But I was finding each of the guests. I was sort of finding a topic to talk about with them. So, that ended up being a lot more work.
\n\nAnd then, the last three years chatting with Steph that was by far my favorite. There was just such a natural back-and-forth. It really was just capturing the conversations of two developers at thoughtbot and the questions we would ask each other as we hit something complicated in a piece of code or, "Oh, I saw this, you know, article about a new open-source repository. What do you think about that?" It was so much easier, so much more natural, and, frankly, a lot of fun to do that.
\n\nAnd, two, I actually do have an answer to the favorite podcast episode, which is the first episode that Steph was ever on. It was before she actually joined as a co-host. But it was called “What I Believe About Software.” And it was just this really great, deep conversation about how we think about software. And a lot of it is very much, like, thoughtbot ideals, I would say. But yeah, Steph came in and just brought the heat in that first episode, and I remember just how enjoyable that experience was. And I was like, all right, let's see if I can get her to hang out a little bit more, and, thankfully, she was happy to join.
\n\nWILL: What was your favorite position, I guess you can call it? Because you say you like the mixture of business and, you know, development. So, you've been in leadership as development director, CTO. You've been a web developer. You've been over content, like, with Upcase. What was your favorite position [inaudible 16:43] you were doing, and why was it your favorite?
\n\nCHRIS: The development director role feels like sort of a cheating answer, but I think that would be my answer because it contained a handful of things within it. Like, as development director, I was still working on client projects three days a week. And then, one day a week was sort of allocated to the manager-type tasks, or having one-on-ones with my team sort of helping to think about strategy and whatnot. And then, ideally, still getting some amount of investment time, although the relative amounts of those always flexed a little bit. Because that one sort of encompassed different facets, I think that's going to be my answer.
\n\nAnd I think, like, some of what drew me to consulting in the first place and kept me in that line of work for seven years was the variety, you know, different clients, as well as, even within thoughtbot, different modes of working in podcasts or video. Or there was a bootcamp that I taught, a session of Metis, which that was a whole other experience. And so, getting that variety was really interesting.
\n\nAnd I think as sort of a tricky answer to your question, the development director role as a singular thing contained a multitude, and so I think that was the one that would stand out to me. It's also the most, you know, the one that I ended on, so [laughs] it might just be recency bias, but yeah.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, I love that. Is there anything else that you would like to promote on the podcast today?
\n\nCHRIS: No, although as you ask the question, I feel like I should, I don't know, make some things to promote, get back into some, I don't know, content generation or something like that. But for now, no. I'm, you know, diving into the startup life, and it's a wonderful and engrossing way to do work, but it does definitely take up a lot of my headspace. So, it's an interesting trade-off.
\n\nBut right now, I don't know; if folks are online and they want to say hi, most of my contact information is readily available. So, I would love to say hi to folks, anyone that listened in the past or, you know, has any thoughts in the now. Would love to connect with folks. But otherwise, yeah, thank you so much for having me on.
\n\nCHAD: In 2017, I took over from Ben as solo host of the show but was joined by Lindsey Christainson as cohost in 2019. After some time away from thoughtbot, Lindsey is back with us and we sat down to catch up with her.
\n\nVICTORIA: Why don't you tell me about your current role with thoughtbot?
\n\nLINDSEY: I am currently supporting marketing and business development at thoughtbot, as well as working as a marketing consultant for thoughtbot clients.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. And I understand that you had worked with thoughtbot many years ago, and that's when you also came on as a co-host of Giant Robots. Is that right?
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, a couple of years ago. I left thoughtbot in spring of 2021. And I forget how long my stint was as a co-host of Giant Robots, but over a year, maybe a year and a half, two years?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I think that's right. I think you started in 2019.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. Yeah, that sounds right. And Chad and I were co-hosts, I think, similar to the setup today in which sometimes we hosted together, and sometimes we were conducting interviews separately.
\n\nCHAD: And then we sort of introduced a second season, where we followed along with a batch of companies over the course of the entire season. And that was fun, and we learned a lot. And it was nice to have consistent guests.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, that was a lot of fun. I really liked that format. I don't know; they almost were, like, more than guests at that point. They were just like other co-hosts [laughs] that we could rely on week in, week out to check in with them as they're working on early-stage companies. So, every time we checked in with them, they usually had some new, exciting developments.
\n\nWILL: I really like that idea. How did y'all come up with that?
\n\nCHAD: I'm not sure. I think a few years before I had taken over hosting of the show, and I forget...my memory maybe is that I went to Lindsey and said, "You know, let's do something different." But I'm not sure. Does that match your memory, Lindsey?
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, I think there were two main drivers; one was I think you were feeling like you were having similar conversations in the interviews every time. Like, you couldn't get to a certain depth because every time you were interviewing someone, you were doing, like, the, "Well, tell me your founding story." And, you know, how did you raise funding? It kind of got a little bit repetitive.
\n\nAnd then, on the side, the few we had done together, I think we both really enjoyed. So, we were thinking, like, what's the format in which the two of us could co-host together more regularly? Because I'm a pleasure to talk to [laughter]. I think you were like, I need to talk to Lindsey more. [inaudible 3:13]
\n\nVICTORIA: What is your hosting style? How would you describe your approach to hosting a podcast?
\n\nLINDSEY: I mean, obviously, it's a podcast about products and business. I think as a marketer, I am, you know, drawn a lot to the marketing side, so tending to ask questions around go-to-market audience, users. That's always just, like, a particular interest of mine. But then also, like, the feelings. I love asking about the feelings of things, you know, how did it feel when you started? How did it feel when you made this tough decision? So, that's another thing I think I noticed in my interviews is asking about some of the emotions behind business decisions.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I like hearing about how people felt at the time and then how they felt afterwards [laughs]. And, like, how people around them supported each other and that type of thing. That's really fun.
\n\nI'm curious, too, from your marketing background and having to do with podcasts like; some founders, I think, get the advice to just start a podcast to start building a community. But I'm curious on your thoughts about, like, how does podcasting really play into, like, business and marketing development for products?
\n\nLINDSEY: Oh yeah. It's become definitely, like, a standard channel in B2B these days. I feel like that it's pretty typical for a company to have a podcast as one way that they engage their audience and their users. In marketing, you're really vying for people's attention, and people's attention span is getting shorter and shorter. So, like, if you have an ad or a blog, you're getting, like, seconds, maybe minutes of someone's attention. And whereas something like a podcast offers a unique channel to have someone's undivided attention for, you know, 30 minutes, an hour, and if you're lucky, you know, checking back in week over week. So, it became a really popular method.
\n\nThat said, I think you're probably also seeing the market get saturated [laughs] with podcasts now, so some diminishing returns. And, you know, as always, kind of looking for, you know, what's the next way? What's the next thing that people are interested in in ways to capture their attention?
\n\nCHAD: What is the next thing?
\n\nLINDSEY: I don't know, back to micro-content? TikTok videos --
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I was going to say TikTok, yeah.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, you know, 10-30 seconds, what can you communicate?
\n\nVICTORIA: I see people live streaming on Twitch a lot for coding and developer products.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, I think we've seen some of that, too. We've been experimenting more at thoughtbot with live streaming as well. It's another interesting mechanism. But yeah, I don't know, it's interesting. It's another form of, like, community and how people engage with their communities. So, it's always evolving. It's always evolving, and sometimes it's not. Sometimes, people just do want to get in a room together, too, which is always interesting.
\n\nWILL: What has been, in your experience, the good the bad? Like, how do you feel about the way that it has shifted? Because I think you started in, like, 2000, like, kind of earlier 2000, 2005, something around there. And it was totally different than now like you're saying. Because I feel like, you know, Channel 5 30-second ad, you know, with some of the marketing depending on what you're doing, to now to where you're, like, you're paying influencers to advertise your product, or you're doing an ad. Or it's more social media-driven and tech-driven. What has been your opinion and feelings on the way that it has grown and evolved?
\n\nLINDSEY: Marketing, in general, yeah, I graduated college in 2005 and started my marketing career. And yeah, you could, like, actually get people to click on banner ads back then, which was pretty [inaudible 07:14] [laughs].
\n\nWILL: I forgot about banner ads [laughs].
\n\nLINDSEY: I don't know, yeah. I don't know. In order for myself to not just get too frustrated, I think I've got to, like, view it as a game kind of. What new things are we going to try? You know, what do we see work? But it can really depend. And I've always been in B2B side of things. And consumer, I'm sure, has its own kind of evolution around how people engage and how they consume content and byproducts. But in B2B, you know, it can really depend on industry too.
\n\nYou know, I'm working with a client right now in the senior living space, and they're really big in in-person conferences. So, that's how people consume, get a lot of their information and, make connections, and learn about new products. So, it's been interesting to work in an industry that what might be considered, like, a little bit more old-school channels are still effective. And then just thinking about how you weave in the new channels with the existing ones without ignoring them. They might get information in conferences, but they're still a modern human who will then, you know, search online to learn more, for example.
\n\nVICTORIA: It reminds me of a phrase I like to say, which is that, like, technology never dies; you just have more of it. There's just more different options and more different ways to do things. And some people are always, you know, sometimes you have to be flexible and do everything.
\n\nCHAD: So, tell us more about what you did in between...after you left thoughtbot, what did you do?
\n\nLINDSEY: I was heading up B2B marketing for a company called Flywire, which is headquartered in Boston but is a global company now. And they were just kind of starting their B2B business unit, which, as I mentioned, B2B is my personal specialty. I had been connected to their CMO through the Boston startup community. And yeah, I was helping them kind of launch their go-to-market for B2B. The industries they were in before...they got their start in higher education and then expanded in healthcare and found a niche in luxury travel, and then we were figuring out the B2B piece. But yeah, I was there for about a year and a half.
\n\nThey actually went public the second week I was there, which was an interesting [laughs] experience. I knew they were, like, on that journey, but it was kind of funny to be there the second week, and people were, like, "Congrats." And I was like, "Well, I definitely didn't have anything to do with it because I just finished my onboarding, but thank you," [laughs].
\n\nCHAD: One of the things that really impressed me when you joined thoughtbot was the way in which you learned about who we were and really internalized that in a way where you were then able to pretty meaningfully understand our market, our positioning in the market, and come up with new strategies for us. I assume that's something you're good at in general [laughs]. How do you approach it? How did you approach it when you joined Flywire, for example? And how was it the same or different than how you approached thoughtbot?
\n\nLINDSEY: Ooh, yeah, that's a good question. And I appreciate that comment because it's difficult. But I think, yeah, with any new organization that I'm joining, you know, I think starting out with your kind of mini-listening tour of your key stakeholders across, you know, the different departmental focuses to get a sense of, what are the challenges? What are the opportunities? It's actually like, you know, it's the SWOT analysis, kind of trying to fill in your own mind map of a SWOT analysis of where the company is. What are the major hurdles you're facing? Where are people trying to go? What have they tried that's worked? What have they tried that's failed?
\n\nBut then, like, I think for the culture component, I think a part of that maybe is, like, feel, and maybe something that I do have a knack for. Again, maybe this is, like, you know, emotional intelligence quotient, where it's like, you know, but it's the company, you know, who is this company? What is important to them? How do they work and go about things?
\n\nI know thoughtbot is certainly very unique, I think, in that arena in terms of being, like, a really value-driven company, and one where especially, like, marketing and business work is, like, distributed across teams in a really interesting way. You know, I'm sure the fact that it fascinated me and was something I could get passionate and get behind was something that also helped me understand it quickly.
\n\nCHAD: I was excited that...or it was sort of a coincidence because I had reached out to you and without realizing that you had left Flywire. And Kelly, who had been doing a combined sales and marketing role, was going on parental leave. And so, it was fortuitous [laughs] that you were able to come back and help us and provide coverage, like, Kelly was out.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, it definitely felt like stars aligned moment, which, you know, I'm pretty woo-woo, so I believe in [laughter]...I believe in that kind of thing. You know, yeah, it was wild. It really did feel like your email came out of nowhere. And, you know, I mentioned it, obviously, to my partner and my friends. And they were like, "Oh, he definitely knows, like, that you left your last company." And I'm like, "I actually don't think he does [laughter]. I actually don't think he does." Yeah, and then we started chatting about me coming back to help. And it was great. thoughtbot makes it hard to work anywhere else [laughs]. So, I was happy to come back. I missed the team.
\n\nCHAD: And one of the exciting things, and you've mentioned it, is you're not just doing marketing for thoughtbot now. We have started to offer your services to our clients.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, I'm super excited about this. And it's something I'd started thinking about. I had decided to take some time off between Flywire and my next thing and had started thinking about doing marketing, consulting. And as I'm doing that, I'm thinking a lot about how thoughtbot does consulting and, you know, wanting to emulate something like that.
\n\nSo, I started back up at thoughtbot. That wasn't part of the plan. I was just going to, you know, fill in for Kelly and help with marketing things. But then, you know, a good opportunity arose to work on a client, and I was really excited. When, you know, Chad, you and I chatted through it, we came to the conclusion that this was something worth exploring under the, you know, thoughtbot umbrella. And it's been a really great experience so far. And we now have brought on another client now. And if you're listening and need early-stage B2B marketing support, reach out to lindsey@thoughtbot.com.
\n\nCHAD: Definitely. And Lindsey is pretty good, so you're going to like it [laughs].
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, you're going to like the way you look.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, definitely. Because I can even feel your presence here, you know, coming back. Because even like, you know, the market where it's at now and some of the suggestions that, you know, you've been helping us. For example, like, I do a lot of React Native, and you're like, "Hey, you know, blog posts have done a lot of traction, you know, let's get some more blog posts out in the market to help with the traffic and everything."
\n\nSo, the question I have with that is, like, thank you for even suggesting that because it's, like, those little things that you don't even think about. It's like, oh yeah, blog posts, that's an easy transition to help the market, clients, things like that. But with the market the way it is, what has been your experience working during this time with the market? I don't know if you want to call it struggling, but whatever you want to call it that, it's doing [laughs].
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, I mean, the economy is difficult now. We also went through a really tough spot when I was here last time. During COVID, you know, we faced a major company challenge. And, I mean, I'll let Chad speak to it, but I would imagine it's probably one of the bigger, like, economic inflection points that you faced. Would you say that?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, definitely. The thing about it that made it worse was how quickly it happened. You know, it was something that you didn't see coming, and then, you know, about 40% of our business went away in a single month. That's the kind of thing that was a real shock to the system.
\n\nI think the thing that made it difficult, too, was then the aspects of COVID, where we were no longer able to go into our studios. We were all working remotely. We were isolated from each other. And so, that made executing on what needed to be done in order to make the company survive additionally challenging.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, so I think, like, going through that experience, also, and seeing how the team and the leadership team rallied together to get through it. And then, you know, ultimately, I think 2021 and 2022 have, like, really good years. That was a really positive experience. And something I'll definitely take with me for a while is just, like, keeping a cool head and just knowing you have, like, really smart, talented folks with you working on it and that you can get through it.
\n\nAnd just, like, doing some, I mean, we relied on what we did best, which was, like, design thinking, using design exercise to think about, like, how we might re-organize the company, or what other services we might try launching, or how might we re-package, you know, larger services into smaller more palatable services when people have, like, kind of tighter purse strings. So, that was, like, a great educational experience, and I think something we just continue to do now: be open to change, be open to changing how we package services, what clients we go after, and coming at it with, like, an agile, experimental mindset and try to find out what works.
\n\nVICTORIA: I really appreciate that. And it aligns now with the new service we've developed around you and the marketing that you provide. And I'm curious because I've had founders come up to me who say they need help with marketing or they need to, like, figure out their marketing plans. So, say you've met a founder who has this question, like, what questions do you ask them to kind of narrow down what it is they really need and really want to get out of a marketing plan?
\n\nLINDSEY: I've been thinking about this a lot recently. And, like, obviously, I see other marketing leaders in the market. Marketers like to talk about what they do on LinkedIn [laughs], so I get to...I read a lot about different people's approaches to this. And some people kind of go in and are like, okay, this is what you need. This is how we're going to do it, and they start executing on it.
\n\nAnd I really do take a very collaborative approach with founders. I think they're, especially in early stage, they're your most important asset in a way, and a lot of their intuition around the market and the business, you know, it's gotten them to where they're at. And so, I think starting from the point of, like, taking what they view as priorities or challenges, and then helping them better explore them or understand them with my own marketing experience and expertise, to narrow in on work that's going to be valuable for them, is kind of my starting point with early-stage companies.
\n\nAgain, a little bit of that, like, listening tour kind of attitude of, like, what do you think is important? And there's probably data points behind that. And then helping you as a company frame that into, you know, what's going to be the most valuable? Like, is it an awareness campaign, or a lead-generating campaign, or a content strategy?
\n\nDo we actually need to take a look at the data you have and spend a little bit of effort cleaning that up so that we understand what we're working with better? Is it sales enablement? You know, do you have existing salespeople, but maybe they're struggling or don't have unified tools and messaging that they're using? That's how I kind of first approach it with the founder, very much kind of in lockstep.
\n\nVICTORIA: I appreciate that little preview of what your services would be like. And I always really appreciate when you help me with my marketing plans around our Mission Control team and platform engineering and how to really refine our message and make sure it reaches the right people.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, I think another thing I used at thoughtbot in the previous time that I've taken with me to Flywire and now with clients is, like, the idea of, like, mini-briefs and working on them with the key stakeholder, whether that's you the head of, you know, a business unit or a founder, which is, like, let's just take the, however long, 30 minutes to talk about, who's the audience? What's our goal? You know, what are the elements that might help us achieve that goal? What are some of the metrics that we might use to measure whether or not we were successful in reaching that goal?
\n\nAnd it sounds really basic, but a lot of people can skip it. And I think then there's confusion around who you are targeting, or people have different ideas in mind of, like, what you are actually trying to achieve.
\n\nVICTORIA: I like that. And to pivot a little bit, I wonder if you have any thoughts on our podcast here at Giant Robots. What do you think the benefit of it is to thoughtbot, actually?
\n\nLINDSEY: I think it's been a brand builder and a way to, again, like, another channel to engage with our audience. It's been so long-standing now, you know. I talked about how most companies have a podcast now. But this is what? The 500th Episode, right? Over years and years, which is really impressive that it's been going that long. So, it's a way to bring the brand to life.
\n\nI think one of my first insights coming into the thoughtbot team is, you know, as a consulting organization, when I interviewed clients about what they loved about thoughtbot, I thought they were going to say that they ended up with amazing products. And they did. They did say that. They said they ended up with amazing products. But I said, "You know, what was the biggest benefit, or what stood out to you the most?" And they all said it was the people, you know, they loved the people. They loved learning from thoughtboters. They were, like, you know, teachers and mentors, and so smart, but also, like, very kind and helpful.
\n\nSo, when you think about it like that, podcasts or videos and ways you're able to, like, better see and hear and feel the person on the other side is a really great way of, you know, continuing to make that connection with folks.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that answer. I wish we had little heart emojis we could share, like in Google Meets with Zencastr. So, what do you think...Maybe this is a question for everyone on here, too, that we're asking is, like, where do you think we should go with the podcast? What should we change? What should we think about for future episodes?
\n\nLINDSEY: I think you should ask the listeners if possible. We tried, in the past, surveying. And it's hard because you don't have, like, necessarily an email list of listeners. But there does tend to be some overlap of, like, our newsletter subscribers with podcast listeners. So yeah, I'd go straight to the audience and just learn more about...ask them what they care about and what they want to learn. Because at the end of the day, it's really for them, providing value for them and something they want to come back to listen to week after week.
\n\nCHAD: Oh, when we've done the surveys in the past, we've had very few people [laughs] respond. So, you can always email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm if you have feedback on the show, questions for people, questions for the hosts, or opinions on, you know, who would make a great guest or a direction we should take the show. All that is super valuable. And we definitely would take it to heart.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, please send me your feedback. I will read your emails and incorporate it into the show. So, it'd be great. I wonder, Lindsey, do you have any questions for us?
\n\nLINDSEY: How do y'all like hosting the podcast? [laughs] How's it going?
\n\nWILL: I feel like I'm starting to find my style and the way that it works best for me, so that's exciting. I do want to engage more with the listener. So, that's one thing that I'm trying to brainstorm on what's the best way to do that. Also, you know, inviting just different types of guests, trying to think through what's some different type, a different angle that we can invite for the podcast? But as far as how do I like doing the podcast, I really enjoy it. It's pushed me out of my comfort zone. But it was a good thing for me. So, I'm really enjoying it.
\n\nLINDSEY: How long have you been doing it, Will?
\n\nWILL: A little over a year. So, I think I started after I went on parental leave with my youngest child. And then when I came back, I took a couple of weeks, and then I started. So yeah, about a year, a little over a year.
\n\nLINDSEY: That's fun. What's your favorite part about doing it?
\n\nWILL: I love talking to the guests. And I love learning, like, people's stories. And so, that has been the most exciting thing for me, like, because especially with the founders, like, it's not easy to be a founder. But people they go all out, and they make a difference. And even through the heartache, and the pain, and just all different levels, but they're willing to endure it because they believe in their product. They believe it's going to make a difference. So, I think the stories, the stories, and the people, meeting new people, and hearing their stories is what I love.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm the same as Will. I've been on the show for about a year now. And the first episode I recorded with Chad, I think afterwards, he said, "Oh, you didn't ask any questions [laughs]. Like, you were too quiet." But then I think I got a hang of it. And now I really like making people feel comfortable and opening up about their story and hearing, yeah, like the emotions and what it really felt like to go through that. Because, you know, if it's interesting for me to hear that, then I think that our audience will also appreciate it and to feel like you're not alone, right? To build that community and hear those same stories and people going through similar things.
\n\nYeah, some of the guests that we've had on have just been really incredible. And they are people who I admire in the industry, and to have them on the show and to be a part of it has been really special.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, that's cool. That reminds me another kind of underlying thing I love about the podcast and the interviewing. It's also low-key, like, market research [laughs], which is interesting, like, better understanding the types of people we provide services to and their kind of drivers and challenges. There's, like, an interesting element there. And yeah, at the end of the day, you get really interested and into it, and you're just, like, having a conversation with them, probably makes for the best kind of episode.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And then afterwards, you have to, like, pace around the room to, like, decompress [laughs] because you're operating at, like, such a level, at least, that happens to me; I don't know about anybody else.
\n\nLINDSEY: No, totally. I would also...if we had, like, an episode scheduled and then it got, like, rescheduled at the last second, I would find I had all this, like, pent-up energy that my body was, like, preparing me to, like, go into the interview.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, sometimes I have to get hyped. Like, you got to do some movement right before because you got to get into the zone. But I'm curious, Chad, this is, you know, you've been a host for a number of years now, too. Like, how do you feel about the podcast? Do you still like hosting it?
\n\nCHAD: No [laughs]. I'm kidding. I have taken a little bit of a break recently from the ongoing continuous hosting because I was really busy. And it was hard to create the time and dedicate the time to it. But I really like hosting the show. I love talking to different people and learning about their stories. I also really like the episodes where it's able to be more of a conversation with people, and I get a lot of enjoyment out of that.
\n\nLINDSEY: We've seen, also, some trends in, like, the episodes where Chad will talk about, like, the business of thoughtbot perform well, too. Because I know there's, like, a lot of folks, who listen who also own agencies or consultancies and always appreciate Chad's transparency around how we run thoughtbot.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's interesting. And yeah, I think one of the ways that we've been experimenting with getting the episodes to be more conversational is to have more than one host in the episode. So, Chad or Lindsey, if you're ever wanting to rejoin an episode or invite a founder on and be one of the co-hosts, you're always welcome.
\n\nLINDSEY: I'm always down. I love talking. That actually...that does remind me we were thinking...we've been doing live streams that cover thoughtbot's new startup incubator. So, we have the second session currently in progress. But repurposing some of those live streams into, like, mini–Giant Robots episodes. So, that may happen soon. We may do a little bit of that and then give some insight into what it's like week in, week out for founders going through the startup incubator. It's super, super interesting if you're a startup nerd like me.
\n\nVICTORIA: That would be great, yeah. We did an episode with Agnes for the first incubator round, and I think that was really interesting. And something we've been experimenting with a little bit is having that diverse group of founders. So, there's founders from companies who the company has managed to survive and excel, and they've been around for ten years or so. Then there's other people who are just starting out. And, like, hearing those stories, too, and, like, the things they're thinking about and what challenges they're facing has been super interesting. Anything else you'd like to promote Lindsey?
\n\nLINDSEY: Hire me for all your marketing consulting needs.
\n\nCHAD: It was great to catch up with everyone in celebration of our 500th episode. Thank you to Ben, Chris, and Lindsey. But most of all, that you to you. We make the show, but you make the show possible.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes, along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm.
\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening, and here’s to the next 500 episodes!
AD:
\n\nDid you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.More info on our website at tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.
","summary":"We released episode one of this podcast on June 11, 2012. Now, more than a decade later, we're celebrating the 500th episode of our show. In honor of this milestone, Victoria, Will, and Chad caught up with each of the past hosts of the show: Ben Orenstein, Chris Toomey, and Lindsey Christensen. \r\n\r\nWe chatted about what they’re up to now, what they liked and learned from hosting the show, their time at thoughtbot, and more!","date_published":"2023-11-16T00:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/93b83554-267a-4504-8564-08a65c711b0f.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":81758032,"duration_in_seconds":4337}]},{"id":"b253d984-0f9b-481d-a798-822ae375d449","title":"thoughtbot's Incubator Program Mini Season 3 - Episode 02: Goodz with Mike Rosenthal and Chris Cerrito","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/s3e2incubatorgoodz","content_text":"This episode introduces the second participants of the season's thoughtbot's Incubator Program, Mike Rosenthal and Chris Cerrito. Mike has a background in music industry marketing, and Chris is a maker and tinkerer with experience in exhibit development. They're developing a product combining physical objects with digital content, starting with music. Their concept involves creating physical items like wooden mixtapes with NFC chips linking to digital playlists. This blend of physical and digital aims to revive the tangible aspects of fan engagement in a digital era.\n\nTheir project, named Goodz, is the first pure consumer product in the Incubator program, adding complexities like supply chain and manufacturing considerations. The team is conducting user interviews to validate market interest and refine their messaging. They aim to have a functioning physical product and a supporting digital backend by the end of the program. Challenges include defining the target market and understanding how to attract customers to a new product type. The thoughtbot team is excited about the project due to its fun nature and technical aspects, offering a fresh perspective compared to problem-focused startups.\n\nThe conversation also explores the broader implications of bridging the digital and physical worlds in fan engagement, with the potential to collect valuable data for artists and create lasting, meaningful connections for fans.\n\n\nFollow Josh Herzig-Marx on LinkedIn or X. Visit his website at joshua.herzig-marx.com.\nFollow thoughtbot on X or LinkedIn.\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nLINDSEY: All right. I'm going to kick us off here. Thanks, everyone, for tuning in. We're doing our first update with two founders that are now going through the Startup incubator at thoughtbot. thoughtbot, if you're not familiar, product design and development consultancy. We'll help you on your product and make your team a success. One of the very fun ways we do that is through the startup thoughtbot incubator, which is an eight-week program. \n\nSo, with us today, I myself am Lindsey Christensen, marketing for thoughtbot. We also have Jordyn Bonds, who is our Director of Product Strategy and runs the thoughtbot incubator. And then, as I mentioned, we've got two new founders who are going to tell us a little bit about themselves and what they're working on. Mike Rosenthal, let's kick off with you. Can you tell us a little bit about maybe your background and what brings you to present day?\n\nMIKE: Sure. First of, thanks for having us. It's been a lot of fun doing this over the last [inaudible 01:03]; it's only two weeks, two and a half weeks, something like that. It feels like a lot more. I come from a music industry background, so worked in sort of marketing and strategy for artists for a long time; worked with a band called OK Go back, sort of starting in 2009 or so. \n\nI did a lot of early kind of viral music video stuff. And we were sort of early to the idea of sort of leveraging fan engagement and revenue, honestly, kind of beyond sort of just selling their music and touring, so sort of exploring other ways that artists can make money and connect with their fans and was with those guys for five years. \n\nAnd then, I went on and worked at an artist management company in Brooklyn called Mick Management and ran the marketing department there, so doing similar type of work but for a roster of 2025 major label bands. And so, really got to see fan engagement on all different levels, from really large bands down to baby bands who were just getting started. And then, yeah, started my first startup in 2018, so doing sort of fan engagement work, and NFTs, and blockchain-type stuff working with bands, but then also sports and entertainment properties. Yeah, that kind of brings me here. \n\nSo, always been sort of on the music side of things, which ties into a lot of what Chris and I are working on now, but more generally, sort of fan engagement and how to, you know, drive revenue and engagement for artists and deliver value for fans.\n\nLINDSEY: Very interesting. All right, Chris, going to head over to you. Chris Cerrito, can you tell us a bit about your background? And it sounds like yours and Mike's paths; this isn't the first time you've crossed.\n\nCHRIS: No. Mike and I have been working together since 2007, I believe. Yeah, that's a great place to start. I've always been kind of a maker and a tinkerer, always been interested in art materials, how things are put together. And that kind of culminated at grad school, where Mike and I met at NYU, where we both studied physical computing and human-computer interaction, making weird things that kind of changed the way that people interact and play with technology in their day-to-day lives. \n\nI think the first project he and I worked on together was a solar robotic band that we played with light in front of a bunch of people. It was very wonderful and confusing at the same time. After grad school, I was lucky enough to become a resident artist and then an exhibit developer at a museum in San Francisco called the Exploratorium, which is a museum of science, art, and human perception. \n\nI spent ten years there working on exhibits, teaching people things ranging from, let's see; I built a dueling water fountain to teach visitors and users about the prisoner's dilemma. I built a photo booth that used computer vision to teach people about the microbiome that lives on their face, like, just all kinds of weird things like that that fuse the digital and the physical worlds. I loved my time there.\n\nAnd then kind of COVID hit, and I realized that everything I had been working on for ten years was locked up in a museum that I no longer had access to. And it really gave me a desire to kind of bring my ideas into the physical world. I wanted to make things that people interact with and use in their lives on a day-to-day basis. And I would say that's really what brought me here to this point.\n\nLINDSEY: Very cool. Very interesting backgrounds, in my opinion. What is the new idea? What is the thing that you're bringing into the incubator? Mike, I'll start with you. Tell us a bit about what you're working on.\n\nMIKE: Chris and I are working on physical objects that connect to digital content is sort of the broadest way that I could describe it. I think, you know, as Chris kind of mentioned, you know, we've both been working on sort of physical things that have interactivity for a lot of our careers. I think we both come from an era of a lot more physical objects in your life, whether that's, you know, VHS cassettes at your parent's house growing up, or records and tape cassettes, and just sort of physical things that remind you of the things that you love. \n\nAnd I think that, you know, cell phones are great, and the sort of the smartphone era is amazing and having, you know, every single song, and movie, and television show and podcasts, et cetera, in a black box in my pocket is great. But I think we've sort of gotten to a point where it's more of an organizational problem now than anything else. And we sort of forget the actual things that we love in this world. \n\nAnd so, we're working on basically making physical objects to tie to digital content, and we're starting with music. And that's what we've been working on at thoughtbot is sort of how we can create physical things that basically you can tap, and that will take you to streaming content. One of the first things we're working on literally looks like sort of a little mixtape on a piece of wood, and you can just load that up with any sort of playlist that you might have on Spotify, or Apple Music, or YouTube, or whatever, and tap it, and it will take you there. \n\nAnd so, it's just sort of that idea of like, oh, we used to be able to sort of flip through a friend's music collection and judge them ruthlessly, or become even better friends with them based on kind of what you saw there. And we think that the time is ripe for, I don't know, a blend of that nostalgia with actual sort of, like, real-world utility that people could be into this right now. Chris, what am I missing there?\n\nCHRIS: I'd say just to expand on that a little bit, it's, you know, we spend so much time in the digital world, but we still exist in the physical. And a lot of the things, like, you might spend a really long time editing a photo for your parents or making a playlist for a friend, and there's, like, a value there that might not translate because it's digital. It's ephemeral. And I think tying these digital assets to a physical thing makes them special. It gives them, like, a permanent place in your life, something to respect, to hold on to, and maybe even pass down at some point. \n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, and I think before we logged on, we actually had Jordyn and Mike grabbing cassette tapes from the room there and to show us --\n\nMIKE: [inaudible 06:49]\n\nLINDSEY: What [laughs] was some of their collection and to prove some of the power of these physical –-\n\nMIKE: Nothing, like, just old mixtapes. \n\nLINDSEY: Mementos.\n\nMIKE: Yeah. We were just talking about this on our sync with the thoughtbot crew. They're, like, there's sort of two levels of nostalgia. There's nostalgia for people like us who, yeah, [crosstalk 07:09] mixtapes, right? For people who actually grew up with this stuff and still have it lying around or don't but, like, look at something like that that gives you, like, instant flashbacks, right? You're like, oh my God, I remember scrolling on that little j-card or, like, getting a mixtape for my first, you know, boyfriend or girlfriend, and having it just mean everything. So, there's people for whom that was a thing. \n\nAnd there's, you know, generations of people for whom that is, like, their only connection to that is, you know, Stranger Things or, like, you know, the mixtape exists in pop culture as a reference. So, there's still, like, a very strong attachment there, but it's not a personal one, right? It's a cultural one. But I think everybody has that connection. So, that's kind of why we're starting with the mixtape, just because I think everyone can kind of relate to that in some way.\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, no, yeah. When I hear mixtape, it goes immediately to crushes. You make a mixtape for your crush. \n\nCHRIS: Exactly. \n\nLINDSEY: It's a huge, powerful market, powerful.\n\nMIKE: Oh my God, so powerful. I mean, yeah, I don't know anybody --\n\nLINDSEY: What's more motivating?\n\nMIKE: [laughs] Yeah, exactly.\n\nCHRIS: Or even just I have a really good friend who I don't get to see as often as I'd like. And he and I are constantly sending each other, you know, Spotify links and text messages. And it's great. I love that interaction. But at the same time, you know, I might forget to add that to a playlist, and then it's kind of lost. If I had taken the time to make something and send it to him physically or vice versa, it just becomes so much more special and so much more real. \n\nMIKE: Yeah. I mean, honestly, I first made these...I mean, we can go to this origin if we want. But, like, I literally just went on moo.com, right? The business card company. And they let you upload, you know, 50 different images, and they'll send you all of those as business cards. And so, I literally went on and just made business cards of all the album covers of, like, albums that I loved growing up, right? And their cheapest is this little piece of cardboard. But I had 50 of these, and I'd put them all out on my coffee table, just as something I wanted to have around. \n\nAnd people kept coming, you know, friends would come over, and you would just have these conversations that I haven't had in 10 or 15 years, right? Because no one's going to come to my house and pick up my phone and look at my Spotify collection. But if these things are all just sitting out, they're like, \"Oh shit, you're into that? Like, I haven't thought about that album in 15 years.\" Or like, \"Oh, I didn't know you were into that. I'm, like, a crazy super fan of that artist as well.\" And all of a sudden, we're having these conversations that we just weren't having. Yeah, there's something there where it's all been nostalgia coupled with the kind of prompting of conversation and connection that we've kind of lost, I think.\n\nCHRIS: And I think just to clarify a little bit on what Mike's saying, is, you know, this mixtape will be our first product launch, and then we're hoping to move into collectibles for artists and labels. So, shortly after we launch this tape, we're hoping to launch some kind of pilot with a label where you will be able to buy a version of this for your favorite music artist at a merch table in a concert, possibly online. Our dream is to have these sitting there on the table with T-shirts, and records, and other things that artists sell so you can express for the artists that you love. This is a way of expressing your fandom.\n\nLINDSEY: Jordyn, heading over to you, this feels like maybe the first consumer product that has gone through the incubator, would you say? Or how do you think about it?\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, if you're a consumer --\n\nLINDSEY: Or is it different than other types of products?\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, the first incubator project we did with Senga was, I think, what you would call prosumer. So, it was sort of a consumer thing but directed at folks who had kind of freelancing in sort of a business context. It's got a lot of dynamics of the consumer. But this one, for sure, is the first pure consumer play. Though now that I'm thinking about it, you know, AvidFirst had some consumer elements to it, but it was, you know, it was, like, more complex tech [laughs] [inaudible 10:46] totally different thing --\n\nLINDSEY: But definitely the first of the physical, physical [inaudible 10:52]\n\nJORDYN: Oh, sure, the first of the physical thing. Right. Absolutely.\n\nLINDSEY: Does that change any of, like, the approach of the programming, or it's kind of --\n\nJORDYN: I mean, no, not fundamentally, though it does add this layer of operations that you don't have with a pure software play. So, we have to be, there is a thing that needs to get shipped to people in the world, and that takes timelines, and it takes --\n\nLINDSEY: Supply chain. \n\nJORDYN: Yeah, exactly. And Chris is doing most of that stuff. I don't want to, you know, this is not, like, the main focus of our team necessarily, but it intersects, right? So, this isn't the first one of these types of products I've worked on personally in my career. But there's something, like, really, for me, very fulfilling about, like, there's software. There's a big component of software. There's also this physical object that needs to exist in the world. \n\nAnd partly, what's so compelling about Goodz is that it gives you the promise of a physical, like, the sort of good aspects of a physical product, a thing you can hold in your hand and look at and really connect with in that physical way. But it has this dynamic digital, like, essential quality as well. So, it's very compelling as a product because it sort of marries the things that we like about both the physical world and the digital world, which is partly why the team was really excited about working on it [laughs].\n\nLINDSEY: Well, that was going to be my next question is, you know, what stood out to you about the Goodz application for the incubator and the interview process that made you and the team feel like this was going to be a great project to work on? \n\nJORDYN: Yeah. So, I think just the team really resonated with the sort of idea in general, and it seemed fun. There was, like, it's a very positive thing, right? It isn't so much about solving problems and pain points. And, sometimes the, you know, when you're very focused on solving problems, it can feel a little doomy because you actually have to, like, immerse yourself in the problems of the people that you're making software for. And sometimes, you start to feel like the world is just full of problems. \n\nWhat Goodz is doing is sort of it is solving a problem in a sense, but not in that kind of way. It's really, like, a fun upside kind of thing, which I think a lot of the folks on the team were very excited about. But, like, the software component, actually, is very interesting to us from a technological standpoint as well. There's a lot of opportunity here to do interesting things on the backend with an object that's essentially functioning as a bookmark out in the world. What all can you do with that? There's something super compelling and technically interesting about it. \n\nAnd I think, also, the team was just sort of excited by Chris and Mike, you know, the energy and the kind of background they were bringing to the table was also super interesting. And then, above all else, what I say every time you ask me this question, which is stage fit, y'all, good stage fit. They're right at the beginning. They haven't built the product yet [laughs]. Gotta say it. It's a good stage fit. They know who they're building for broadly but not super specifically. Got a good vision but, like, haven't made that first step with the software. Perfect stage fit for us [laughs]. \n\nLINDSEY: Great. So, Chris, we were talking a bit before about how you two have been collaborators in the past, worked on business ideas before. Why bring this idea into the thoughtbot incubator? What are you hoping to, you know, achieve? \n\nCHRIS: One of the main reasons why we wanted to bring this into the incubator was just for support, momentum, and then, also, I would say, validation for our idea. I mean, we came to the incubator with a very, yeah, I would say it was a fairly developed idea that needed to be proved, and we, quite frankly, needed help with that. You know, Mike and I have our own expertises, but we don't know how to do everything. We're more than willing to jump in where we need to go. \n\nBut having people with expertise to work with has proven to be incredibly helpful, and just having kind of fresh faces to bat ideas around with after he and I have been staring at each other for months now on Zoom calls and meetings. And just, you know, being able to talk about these ideas with fresh faces and new people and get new perspectives has been so very, very helpful. \n\nI think something that's also great from the momentum standpoint is that because there's a time limit to this experience, we've got the time that we have with you guys, and we've been able to set goals that I think are very achievable for things we want to occur in the next couple of months, and it feels like we're going to get there. \n\nAnd I think by the end of this, I mean, our hope, and I think we're on track, is to have a functioning physical product that we're going to offer to consumers with a digital backend to support it, which is, in my mind, amazing. That'll totally validate this idea and prove if we have something or not. \n\nLINDSEY: I was going to ask if you're open to sharing what those goals specifically are. Is that it? Is it that by the end, you have --\n\nMIKE: Is that it? Lindsey, that's a lot. \n\n[laughter]\n\nCHRIS: It's a lot. I mean, yeah. I mean, we're going to have a physical object in the world that you can buy via an e-commerce site --\n\nJORDYN: Sounds like we need Lindsey on the team if Lindsey feels like this is so achievable. [laughter]\n\nCHRIS: Yeah, yeah. Lindsey...yeah. We're in the beginning [crosstalk 15:47]\n\nLINDSEY: I meant, is that the goal? \n\nCHRIS: That is the goal.\n\nLINDSEY: Is that all? \n\nCHRIS: I was going to –-\n\nLINDSEY: Is that all you got?\n\nCHRIS: Mike, do you agree?\n\nMIKE: Yeah. Is that the goal? Yes, that is the goal. I mean, you know, when we sat down with the thoughtbot team kind of week one, you know, they're sort of like, \"All right, let's define kind of the experiment.\" So, we refer to them as experiments, which I think is helpful because, like, what are the experiments that we want to be doing during our time here? And, you know, we talked about it a lot. \n\nAnd yeah, I think it's, you know, having a physical product out in the world, having a website in which to sell it. But also, it's really like Chris was saying, it's like, it's market validation, and just making sure we actually have something that people want. It's like, you know, running a startup takes so long and, like [laughs], you know, you'll do it for so many years. It's like bands when people say, like, \"Oh, that's an overnight sensation.\" It's like, you know, that band has been slogging it out in tiny, little venues for four years before you ever heard of them. \n\nIt's like, that's what so much of the startup world feels like to me, too. It's like, \"Oh, you're just getting started as a startup?\" It's like, \"Well, we've been working on this forever.\" And I know how long this can take. And so, I think we want to learn as early as possible, like, is this something people actually want? Because if they don't, like, we'll just go do something else. I don't want to spend years making something that people don't want. \n\nSo, I think the biggest goal, for me, is just validation, and then that is sort of how we get there is like, okay, how do we validate this? Cool. Let's identify some, you know, assumptions of personas that we think are people who do actually want this and then try to go sell it to them. And all the implications from that are, okay, well, you need a website where somebody can buy it. You need a physical product that somebody can actually buy. So, all those things sort of come out of that, but, for me, it's like, proving that assumption, is this thing real? Do people actually want this? And everything else is like, okay, how do we prove that?\n\nLINDSEY: Jordyn, what does that look like in these first few weeks here? User interviews, I assume, how are the user interviews going?\n\nJORDYN: Always. Always. So, you know, we kick it off by just, like, doing the exercise where we list everybody who might want this. And the team, you know, it's a fun product. Everybody brought their own assumptions and ideas to the table on that. You know, we had a lot of different scenarios we were imagining. It's super fun getting that stuff out of people's heads, just, like, what are we all thinking? \n\nAnd then, you know, we get to negotiate, like, okay...I always encourage everyone to think, like, if everyone else on the team was on the moon, you had to make a decision about a market segment to pick; which one would you pick? And then we kind of argue about it in a productive way. It really helps us get at, like, what are the dynamics that we think matter upfront? And then we pick one, or, in this case, we have a few. We have a handful. \n\nAnd we're running interview projects where we just recruit people to talk about people that meet this persona, talk about a specific problem. We're in the middle of that right now. And it's fun, fantastic. These conversations are super interesting. We're validating a lot of the things that Mike and Chris, you know, walked into this with, but we're learning a bunch of new things as well. \n\nAnd, like, really, part of the aim there is to validate that there's a hole in the market that we might fill but also to hear the language people are using to describe this stuff. So, when people talk about buying music, merch, you know, making playlists, et cetera, like, what language do they use to talk about that? So that we make sure we're speaking the language that our customer uses to describe this stuff. And we're, you know, we're right in the pocket of doing that, learning stuff all the time. \n\nAnd it helps us kind of hone the messaging. It helps us know where to go talk to people about it, how to talk about it, but it's, you know, it all kind of fits together. And it's just this, really...the early stages. It's just a bunch of us in a room, a virtual room, in this case, sort of, like, tossing ideas around. But out of it crystallizes this sense of alignment about who this is for, how to talk to them about it, and with a goal. \n\nAnd, you know, Mike and Chris walked in with the exact right mindset about this, which is, yes, it's experiments. We need to validate it. Let's make sure there's a there-there. If there's a there-there, let's figure out where it is [laughs], like, all those things. And we're running these experiments, and it was really [inaudible 19:36]. We got down to business quite quickly here. It was really great. \n\nLINDSEY: Like you said, it's not necessarily a problem or, you know, the typical framing of a problem. How do you start those user interview questions around this? Do you feel a gap between the physical and the digital sound? [laughter] \n\nJORDYN: No, no.\n\nLINDSEY: It's maybe not it [laughs].\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, no. Well, I can tell you what our startup questions are. One of them is, tell me about the last time you bought music merch. Go for it, Lindsey. Tell us.\n\nLINDSEY: The last time I bought music merch, I went to a Tegan and Sara concert a few weeks ago, and I bought a T-shirt.\n\nJORDYN: Tell me about buying that T-shirt. Why'd you buy it? \n\nLINDSEY: Because I wanted to remember the show and my time with my friends, and I wanted to support the artists. I know that buying merch is the best way to support your favorite touring artists.\n\nJORDYN: So, it's just, you know, we could spend the rest of this time talking [laughter] [crosstalk 20:34], and it would be awesome. So, it's really a lot of things like that.\n\nLINDSEY: Gotcha.\n\nJORDYN: You don't ask, \"What problem are you trying to solve by buying this t-shirt?\" Right? Like, that's not, you know, but we ask you to tell us a bunch of stories about when you did this recently. You know, and if you make playlists for friends, you know, that's a different persona. But we would have asked, you know, like, \"Tell me about the last playlist you made. You know, who did you share it with? You know, what happened after that? What happened after that? What happened after that?\" It's a lot of questions like that. And there's just nothing better. People love to tell you what's going on with them. And it's great [laughs]. \n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. As you all have been doing these interviews, Mike and Chris, have you been surprised by anything? Any interesting insights that you're seeing already?\n\nCHRIS: I mean, I haven't done really much in the way of user interviews in the past. This is a really new experience for me. And then we're, obviously, not on the calls because that would be weird and probably intimidating for people. But we're getting lots of highlights from folks who are doing them, you know, in our daily sync. \n\nAnd I'm surprised at how many, like, really intense, like, playlist nerds we have found even just in, like, the few people we've talked to, like, in the best possible way. Like, people who are like, \"I make playlists all the time.\" Like, you're talking about, like, a vinyl fan or, like, a...Jordyn, what's the story? It's, like, the guy who there was so much out-of-print vinyl that he started a vinyl label just to get the albums in vinyl. [crosstalk 21:56]\n\nJORDYN: Yeah. There were a bunch of releases that he feels really passionately about that were never released on vinyl that he knew would never be released on vinyl. And so, he started a vinyl record label. And we just found this guy [laughter].\n\nCHRIS: Is that indicative that that's, like, an entire persona we're going to, like, target? Absolutely not. But it's just, like, it's amazing that even just in the few user interviews we've done, that we've found so many very passionate people. And it's sent me down, like, a TikTok rabbit hole of, like, TikTok, like, music nerd influencer-type folks who are posting playlists. \n\nAnd they, like, hundreds of thousands of likes on these videos that are literally just, like, screen with text on it that you're supposed to, like, pause the video [laughs] and, like, look at, like, the songs that they're recommending. And it's like, who does that? And it was like, these people do that. And it's like, so there are...it's been very encouraging to me, actually. I was worried that we were going to find not as much passion as we had suspected, and I think the opposite has proven to be true. So, it's exciting.\n\nCHRIS: Yeah, I completely agree with Mike. It's been so encouraging. I think, for me, what we're doing is an idea that I'm very excited about and have been very excited about for a long time. But hearing the responses that we're getting makes me confident in the idea, too. That's great. I mean, I think that is everything that a founder needs, you know, is excitement and confidence.\n\nMIKE: Well, and just the whole user interview experience has, like, made a lot of my other conversations sort of I've tried to frame parts of them as user interviews because I'm talking to a lot of, like, label folks now, and artists, merch people. And, you know, I ended up just sort of, like, asking them, I mean, yes, trying to explain the product and work on kind of partnership stuff, but a lot of it is really just geeking out with them. And just, like, hearing their thoughts about, like, what they love about merch because these are people that clearly think about this stuff all the time. So, it's definitely kind of, like, tuned my other conversations into trying to get unbiased feedback.\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. Everything is a little user interview now. \n\nMIKE: Yeah, exactly.\n\nLINDSEY: Get that angle in there. All right, so some early validation and excitement. That's really cool to hear. Any challenges or, you know, other kinds of learnings early on? Anything that's been invalidated?\n\nMIKE: I don't know that we're there yet. [inaudible 24:02] Chris, I don't know. I'm happy to find that some things are invalidated, but I don't really feel...you know, some of the personas that we decided or maybe just one of the personas we decided to pursue, I think we're having a hard time having those user interviews kind of really bear fruit, but that's helpful, too, actually. I mean, it's like, okay, well, maybe that's not a group that we target.\n\nJORDYN: Yeah. It's about, like, [inaudible 24:24]. I encourage folks not to think about this like a 'no, not that,' and instead think of it as like a 'not yet.' And that's, I think, the dynamic here with a couple of the personas we were interested in. It's just been turned into kind of, like, a not yet for reasons that we very quickly figured out, but we'll get there. It's just a matter of figuring out we had some other personas take precedence because they're more sort of red, hot in a way, right? It's just easier to get in contact with these people, or it's, like, clear what they're going for or what they need from the market. \n\nSo, you know, we have this whole list, and it was not clear at first who was going to kind of stand out. But we've kind of found some focus there, which means, invariably, that there's things that are falling out of the frame for now, and you're kind of de-prioritizing them. But it really is, like, a we'll get to that [laughs]. We'll eventually get to that.\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. And part of the process, who's going to rise to the top right now? \n\nJORDYN: Yeah, exactly.\n\nLINDSEY: Do you have anything you can show and tell with us today or not yet?\n\nMIKE: So, Chris has been hard at work on all the physical side of this stuff and going back and forth with our manufacturing partner and all that good stuff. But we have a final version of the mixtape product.\n\nLINDSEY: For when this gets pulled into the podcast, Mike's showing us a physical card.\n\nCHRIS: It's a small card, and we call them Goodz. And it's printed on three-millimeter plywood using a UV printing process, super durable. And this is something you can put in your pocket. You're not going to wreck it. I think you could actually (Don't quote me on this.), but I think you can even, like, put it through a washing machine, and it would be fine. Embedded in this card is a chip that can be read by your phone, and that's pretty much what we're working with. \n\nMIKE: Yeah, so the idea is you just sort of tap this, and it'll take you to a streaming version of a playlist. And then Chris has also been making these adorable crates. And [crosstalk 26:10] \n\nLINDSEY: The little crates I love.\n\nMIKE: And we actually have some wooden ones, too, in the testing that's [crosstalk 26:15]\n\nLINDSEY: And then the mixtapes get stored in the little crates [crosstalk 26:19] \n\nMIKE: Yeah. So, you could have --\n\nLINDSEY: Throw it on your desk.\n\nCHRIS: Each crate can hold about, I think, 15 of these things. What's really cool about this product on the physical side is we are using a tried-and-true technology, which is NFC chips. These are things that make Apple Pay work, make Google Pay work. They are in your E-ZPass when you drive through a toll booth. This is stuff that's been around for years. So, we're just kind of leveraging this technology that's been around for so long in a new way. \n\nMIKE: Yeah, I think it's similar to kind of the evolution of QR codes, right? It's like they were sort of around forever, and then it was, like, COVID and restaurant menus kind of kicked those into mainstream. Like, NFC has been around for a long time. It's very tried and true. It's affordable. But I want to say Apple only turned it on by default, like, the NFC reader in the iPhone in the last, like, 18 to 24 months, right? Like, it started...like, it's been around for a while, but they're sort of slowly kind of...and now you just sort of see it everywhere. People are using it on the subways in New York to scan for tickets or for accessing stuff. \n\nI was also just showing Chris has been prototyping with the ability to sort of keep these on a key ring. So, we have, like, a little chain hole on them. It is [inaudible 27:22] to sort of have this on your backpack or, you know, on a key ring, or something like that. And friends could kind of, like, come up to you and just, like, scan one that looks interesting. \n\nCHRIS: And yeah, something that's awesome about this is you don't need an app. You don't need to download anything. As long as your NFC reader is on when you scan this, it will bring you to the music that it's linked to, which I think is awesome. So, I mean, my dream is to have these, like, hanging off of people's backpacks so I can, like, scan them in the subway or, you know, it's such, like, an easy thing to do. And it requires so little technical time on the user's end to be able to do it. \n\nLINDSEY: Oh, we got a question here. \"So, Moo used to offer NFC cards. What made you decide to do the thicker plywood model?\" \n\nCHRIS: Durability is really what it comes down to. We wanted something that felt like an object that you can have and treasure. Like, these have weight, you know, these feel like something, not just a piece of paper. This is something that you can have and [inaudible 28:22] your desk, and it's not going to fade in the sunlight. It's not going to disintegrate over time. This is something that's going to last.\n\nMIKE: Yeah, the cards would definitely, like, as I would sort of carry them around and show them to people and stuff, the cards would start, you know, breaking. It's like having a business card in your pocket, right? Eventually, it's going to kind of wear out. And plus, we had, like, the stickers were visible on the back of them. And we were, like, having the sticker just completely disappear inside the wood; it just feels a little bit more like magic.\n\nLINDSEY: Well, thanks for demoing there. I put you on the spot a little bit. But they are...I had seen them in the Slack, and they're very cool [laughs]. So, I had to ask if we could show them off a bit.\n\nMIKE: Of course.\n\nCHRIS: I think another thing to think about, too, is we've been talking a lot about the user experience. But if and when we get to the point of making these for artists, artists will be able to collect so much data off of the way that people buy and collect and use these things over time, which is something that we're really, really excited about. And also, you know, we're working on a way to make the link in the object updatable over time. So, artists will be able to change what a card points do to inform their users about the latest and greatest thing. \n\nLINDSEY: Very cool. Jordyn, what's next on the programming agenda for Chris and Mike? \n\nJORDYN: It's really sort of we're in this, like, iterative cycle. So, we're talking to folks. We're working on the website. The conversations we're having with people are informing how we're framing this first experiment with the mixtape, how we're marketing it, who we're marketing it to. I think next up is probably a Google Ad experiment to really see if we can piggyback on some stuff or at least figure out a new consumer product. It's so tough, right? \n\nIt's also not a thing people are searching for. So, we have to come up with some experiments for how we get people to that website [laughs]. So, you know, Google Ads funnels is just something you kind of have to do because it's very interesting to figure out what people are responding to, what people are searching for. But we're going to have a bunch of other experiments as well and non-experiments. Outbound experiments: can we go to people? Can we get listed in a gift-buying guide for the holidays? Or, like, we don't know. There's a bunch of experiments we need to do around that, which is really just this iteration.\n\nWe won't stop talking to users, but, you know, everything we're hearing from them will inform where we go and how we talk to the folks in those places where we end up. And really, it's just about starting...once this is up and, you know, there's, like, an orderable thing, there's, like, a whole data cycle where we start to learn from the stuff we're testing; we actually have some real data for it, and we can start to tweak, iterate and change our strategy. \n\nBut the bigger thing, also, is this bigger platform. So, the next thing really, the big next thing, is to sort of start to scope and create an architecture idea. What's it going to take to build the actual backend thing? And it's the thing that thoughtbot really [laughs] excels at, which is software. So, you know, that's the big next kind of project. Once the mixtape experiment is sort of out and in flight and we're getting data, we really need to turn our attention to the technical backend. \n\nLINDSEY: Exciting. Another comment/question from Jeff, who maybe needs a user interview. \"Love the crate more than the actual albums. Maybe offer collections of artists.\"\n\nMIKE: Yeah, that's the plan. \n\nCHRIS: Yeah, definitely. It's a good idea. Yeah, it's, I mean, and labels get to, especially, like, small indie labels get really excited about doing, like, crates worth of collections of different artists or, like, you know, digging through their back catalog, their subscription services. There's a lot of different angles for sure about that idea.\n\nLINDSEY: [inaudible 31:55] Chris and Mike, going into this next section of the programming, for anyone watching right now, or watching the recording, or listening to the recording, any action items from them? You know, are you looking for any user interviews or have any survey or any destinations you'd like to send people yet? \n\nCHRIS: Not quite yet, but soon, I would say. Well --\n\nMIKE: I mean, [inaudible 32:19] plug the website, I mean, you know, I think we've got, like, an email to sign up from there, right? The URL is getthegoodz.com and I [crosstalk 32:27]\n\nLINDSEY: Goodz with a Z. \n\nMIKE: Goodz with a Z.\n\nCHRIS: With Z.\n\nMIKE: So yeah, if you want to go there, you can sign up. I think there's an email signup on there to learn more.\n\nLINDSEY: Perfect. All right. getthegoodz.com email sign up. To stay up to date on Goodz and the incubator, you can follow along on the thoughtbot blog. You know, as always, send us any questions you might have, and we're happy to get to those. But otherwise, thanks for listening. \n\nAnd thank you all — Jordyn, Chris, and Mike. Thanks so much for joining today and sharing and being open about your stories so far. \n\nMIKE: Thank you. \n\nCHRIS: Yeah, thank you, Lindsey.\n\nAD:\n\nDid you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.\n\nMore info on our website at tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.Special Guests: Chris Cerrito and Mike Rosenthal.","content_html":"This episode introduces the second participants of the season's thoughtbot's Incubator Program, Mike Rosenthal and Chris Cerrito. Mike has a background in music industry marketing, and Chris is a maker and tinkerer with experience in exhibit development. They're developing a product combining physical objects with digital content, starting with music. Their concept involves creating physical items like wooden mixtapes with NFC chips linking to digital playlists. This blend of physical and digital aims to revive the tangible aspects of fan engagement in a digital era.
\n\nTheir project, named Goodz, is the first pure consumer product in the Incubator program, adding complexities like supply chain and manufacturing considerations. The team is conducting user interviews to validate market interest and refine their messaging. They aim to have a functioning physical product and a supporting digital backend by the end of the program. Challenges include defining the target market and understanding how to attract customers to a new product type. The thoughtbot team is excited about the project due to its fun nature and technical aspects, offering a fresh perspective compared to problem-focused startups.
\n\nThe conversation also explores the broader implications of bridging the digital and physical worlds in fan engagement, with the potential to collect valuable data for artists and create lasting, meaningful connections for fans.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nLINDSEY: All right. I'm going to kick us off here. Thanks, everyone, for tuning in. We're doing our first update with two founders that are now going through the Startup incubator at thoughtbot. thoughtbot, if you're not familiar, product design and development consultancy. We'll help you on your product and make your team a success. One of the very fun ways we do that is through the startup thoughtbot incubator, which is an eight-week program.
\n\nSo, with us today, I myself am Lindsey Christensen, marketing for thoughtbot. We also have Jordyn Bonds, who is our Director of Product Strategy and runs the thoughtbot incubator. And then, as I mentioned, we've got two new founders who are going to tell us a little bit about themselves and what they're working on. Mike Rosenthal, let's kick off with you. Can you tell us a little bit about maybe your background and what brings you to present day?
\n\nMIKE: Sure. First of, thanks for having us. It's been a lot of fun doing this over the last [inaudible 01:03]; it's only two weeks, two and a half weeks, something like that. It feels like a lot more. I come from a music industry background, so worked in sort of marketing and strategy for artists for a long time; worked with a band called OK Go back, sort of starting in 2009 or so.
\n\nI did a lot of early kind of viral music video stuff. And we were sort of early to the idea of sort of leveraging fan engagement and revenue, honestly, kind of beyond sort of just selling their music and touring, so sort of exploring other ways that artists can make money and connect with their fans and was with those guys for five years.
\n\nAnd then, I went on and worked at an artist management company in Brooklyn called Mick Management and ran the marketing department there, so doing similar type of work but for a roster of 2025 major label bands. And so, really got to see fan engagement on all different levels, from really large bands down to baby bands who were just getting started. And then, yeah, started my first startup in 2018, so doing sort of fan engagement work, and NFTs, and blockchain-type stuff working with bands, but then also sports and entertainment properties. Yeah, that kind of brings me here.
\n\nSo, always been sort of on the music side of things, which ties into a lot of what Chris and I are working on now, but more generally, sort of fan engagement and how to, you know, drive revenue and engagement for artists and deliver value for fans.
\n\nLINDSEY: Very interesting. All right, Chris, going to head over to you. Chris Cerrito, can you tell us a bit about your background? And it sounds like yours and Mike's paths; this isn't the first time you've crossed.
\n\nCHRIS: No. Mike and I have been working together since 2007, I believe. Yeah, that's a great place to start. I've always been kind of a maker and a tinkerer, always been interested in art materials, how things are put together. And that kind of culminated at grad school, where Mike and I met at NYU, where we both studied physical computing and human-computer interaction, making weird things that kind of changed the way that people interact and play with technology in their day-to-day lives.
\n\nI think the first project he and I worked on together was a solar robotic band that we played with light in front of a bunch of people. It was very wonderful and confusing at the same time. After grad school, I was lucky enough to become a resident artist and then an exhibit developer at a museum in San Francisco called the Exploratorium, which is a museum of science, art, and human perception.
\n\nI spent ten years there working on exhibits, teaching people things ranging from, let's see; I built a dueling water fountain to teach visitors and users about the prisoner's dilemma. I built a photo booth that used computer vision to teach people about the microbiome that lives on their face, like, just all kinds of weird things like that that fuse the digital and the physical worlds. I loved my time there.
\n\nAnd then kind of COVID hit, and I realized that everything I had been working on for ten years was locked up in a museum that I no longer had access to. And it really gave me a desire to kind of bring my ideas into the physical world. I wanted to make things that people interact with and use in their lives on a day-to-day basis. And I would say that's really what brought me here to this point.
\n\nLINDSEY: Very cool. Very interesting backgrounds, in my opinion. What is the new idea? What is the thing that you're bringing into the incubator? Mike, I'll start with you. Tell us a bit about what you're working on.
\n\nMIKE: Chris and I are working on physical objects that connect to digital content is sort of the broadest way that I could describe it. I think, you know, as Chris kind of mentioned, you know, we've both been working on sort of physical things that have interactivity for a lot of our careers. I think we both come from an era of a lot more physical objects in your life, whether that's, you know, VHS cassettes at your parent's house growing up, or records and tape cassettes, and just sort of physical things that remind you of the things that you love.
\n\nAnd I think that, you know, cell phones are great, and the sort of the smartphone era is amazing and having, you know, every single song, and movie, and television show and podcasts, et cetera, in a black box in my pocket is great. But I think we've sort of gotten to a point where it's more of an organizational problem now than anything else. And we sort of forget the actual things that we love in this world.
\n\nAnd so, we're working on basically making physical objects to tie to digital content, and we're starting with music. And that's what we've been working on at thoughtbot is sort of how we can create physical things that basically you can tap, and that will take you to streaming content. One of the first things we're working on literally looks like sort of a little mixtape on a piece of wood, and you can just load that up with any sort of playlist that you might have on Spotify, or Apple Music, or YouTube, or whatever, and tap it, and it will take you there.
\n\nAnd so, it's just sort of that idea of like, oh, we used to be able to sort of flip through a friend's music collection and judge them ruthlessly, or become even better friends with them based on kind of what you saw there. And we think that the time is ripe for, I don't know, a blend of that nostalgia with actual sort of, like, real-world utility that people could be into this right now. Chris, what am I missing there?
\n\nCHRIS: I'd say just to expand on that a little bit, it's, you know, we spend so much time in the digital world, but we still exist in the physical. And a lot of the things, like, you might spend a really long time editing a photo for your parents or making a playlist for a friend, and there's, like, a value there that might not translate because it's digital. It's ephemeral. And I think tying these digital assets to a physical thing makes them special. It gives them, like, a permanent place in your life, something to respect, to hold on to, and maybe even pass down at some point.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, and I think before we logged on, we actually had Jordyn and Mike grabbing cassette tapes from the room there and to show us --
\n\nMIKE: [inaudible 06:49]
\n\nLINDSEY: What [laughs] was some of their collection and to prove some of the power of these physical –-
\n\nMIKE: Nothing, like, just old mixtapes.
\n\nLINDSEY: Mementos.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. We were just talking about this on our sync with the thoughtbot crew. They're, like, there's sort of two levels of nostalgia. There's nostalgia for people like us who, yeah, [crosstalk 07:09] mixtapes, right? For people who actually grew up with this stuff and still have it lying around or don't but, like, look at something like that that gives you, like, instant flashbacks, right? You're like, oh my God, I remember scrolling on that little j-card or, like, getting a mixtape for my first, you know, boyfriend or girlfriend, and having it just mean everything. So, there's people for whom that was a thing.
\n\nAnd there's, you know, generations of people for whom that is, like, their only connection to that is, you know, Stranger Things or, like, you know, the mixtape exists in pop culture as a reference. So, there's still, like, a very strong attachment there, but it's not a personal one, right? It's a cultural one. But I think everybody has that connection. So, that's kind of why we're starting with the mixtape, just because I think everyone can kind of relate to that in some way.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, no, yeah. When I hear mixtape, it goes immediately to crushes. You make a mixtape for your crush.
\n\nCHRIS: Exactly.
\n\nLINDSEY: It's a huge, powerful market, powerful.
\n\nMIKE: Oh my God, so powerful. I mean, yeah, I don't know anybody --
\n\nLINDSEY: What's more motivating?
\n\nMIKE: [laughs] Yeah, exactly.
\n\nCHRIS: Or even just I have a really good friend who I don't get to see as often as I'd like. And he and I are constantly sending each other, you know, Spotify links and text messages. And it's great. I love that interaction. But at the same time, you know, I might forget to add that to a playlist, and then it's kind of lost. If I had taken the time to make something and send it to him physically or vice versa, it just becomes so much more special and so much more real.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. I mean, honestly, I first made these...I mean, we can go to this origin if we want. But, like, I literally just went on moo.com, right? The business card company. And they let you upload, you know, 50 different images, and they'll send you all of those as business cards. And so, I literally went on and just made business cards of all the album covers of, like, albums that I loved growing up, right? And their cheapest is this little piece of cardboard. But I had 50 of these, and I'd put them all out on my coffee table, just as something I wanted to have around.
\n\nAnd people kept coming, you know, friends would come over, and you would just have these conversations that I haven't had in 10 or 15 years, right? Because no one's going to come to my house and pick up my phone and look at my Spotify collection. But if these things are all just sitting out, they're like, "Oh shit, you're into that? Like, I haven't thought about that album in 15 years." Or like, "Oh, I didn't know you were into that. I'm, like, a crazy super fan of that artist as well." And all of a sudden, we're having these conversations that we just weren't having. Yeah, there's something there where it's all been nostalgia coupled with the kind of prompting of conversation and connection that we've kind of lost, I think.
\n\nCHRIS: And I think just to clarify a little bit on what Mike's saying, is, you know, this mixtape will be our first product launch, and then we're hoping to move into collectibles for artists and labels. So, shortly after we launch this tape, we're hoping to launch some kind of pilot with a label where you will be able to buy a version of this for your favorite music artist at a merch table in a concert, possibly online. Our dream is to have these sitting there on the table with T-shirts, and records, and other things that artists sell so you can express for the artists that you love. This is a way of expressing your fandom.
\n\nLINDSEY: Jordyn, heading over to you, this feels like maybe the first consumer product that has gone through the incubator, would you say? Or how do you think about it?
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, if you're a consumer --
\n\nLINDSEY: Or is it different than other types of products?
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, the first incubator project we did with Senga was, I think, what you would call prosumer. So, it was sort of a consumer thing but directed at folks who had kind of freelancing in sort of a business context. It's got a lot of dynamics of the consumer. But this one, for sure, is the first pure consumer play. Though now that I'm thinking about it, you know, AvidFirst had some consumer elements to it, but it was, you know, it was, like, more complex tech [laughs] [inaudible 10:46] totally different thing --
\n\nLINDSEY: But definitely the first of the physical, physical [inaudible 10:52]
\n\nJORDYN: Oh, sure, the first of the physical thing. Right. Absolutely.
\n\nLINDSEY: Does that change any of, like, the approach of the programming, or it's kind of --
\n\nJORDYN: I mean, no, not fundamentally, though it does add this layer of operations that you don't have with a pure software play. So, we have to be, there is a thing that needs to get shipped to people in the world, and that takes timelines, and it takes --
\n\nLINDSEY: Supply chain.
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, exactly. And Chris is doing most of that stuff. I don't want to, you know, this is not, like, the main focus of our team necessarily, but it intersects, right? So, this isn't the first one of these types of products I've worked on personally in my career. But there's something, like, really, for me, very fulfilling about, like, there's software. There's a big component of software. There's also this physical object that needs to exist in the world.
\n\nAnd partly, what's so compelling about Goodz is that it gives you the promise of a physical, like, the sort of good aspects of a physical product, a thing you can hold in your hand and look at and really connect with in that physical way. But it has this dynamic digital, like, essential quality as well. So, it's very compelling as a product because it sort of marries the things that we like about both the physical world and the digital world, which is partly why the team was really excited about working on it [laughs].
\n\nLINDSEY: Well, that was going to be my next question is, you know, what stood out to you about the Goodz application for the incubator and the interview process that made you and the team feel like this was going to be a great project to work on?
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah. So, I think just the team really resonated with the sort of idea in general, and it seemed fun. There was, like, it's a very positive thing, right? It isn't so much about solving problems and pain points. And, sometimes the, you know, when you're very focused on solving problems, it can feel a little doomy because you actually have to, like, immerse yourself in the problems of the people that you're making software for. And sometimes, you start to feel like the world is just full of problems.
\n\nWhat Goodz is doing is sort of it is solving a problem in a sense, but not in that kind of way. It's really, like, a fun upside kind of thing, which I think a lot of the folks on the team were very excited about. But, like, the software component, actually, is very interesting to us from a technological standpoint as well. There's a lot of opportunity here to do interesting things on the backend with an object that's essentially functioning as a bookmark out in the world. What all can you do with that? There's something super compelling and technically interesting about it.
\n\nAnd I think, also, the team was just sort of excited by Chris and Mike, you know, the energy and the kind of background they were bringing to the table was also super interesting. And then, above all else, what I say every time you ask me this question, which is stage fit, y'all, good stage fit. They're right at the beginning. They haven't built the product yet [laughs]. Gotta say it. It's a good stage fit. They know who they're building for broadly but not super specifically. Got a good vision but, like, haven't made that first step with the software. Perfect stage fit for us [laughs].
\n\nLINDSEY: Great. So, Chris, we were talking a bit before about how you two have been collaborators in the past, worked on business ideas before. Why bring this idea into the thoughtbot incubator? What are you hoping to, you know, achieve?
\n\nCHRIS: One of the main reasons why we wanted to bring this into the incubator was just for support, momentum, and then, also, I would say, validation for our idea. I mean, we came to the incubator with a very, yeah, I would say it was a fairly developed idea that needed to be proved, and we, quite frankly, needed help with that. You know, Mike and I have our own expertises, but we don't know how to do everything. We're more than willing to jump in where we need to go.
\n\nBut having people with expertise to work with has proven to be incredibly helpful, and just having kind of fresh faces to bat ideas around with after he and I have been staring at each other for months now on Zoom calls and meetings. And just, you know, being able to talk about these ideas with fresh faces and new people and get new perspectives has been so very, very helpful.
\n\nI think something that's also great from the momentum standpoint is that because there's a time limit to this experience, we've got the time that we have with you guys, and we've been able to set goals that I think are very achievable for things we want to occur in the next couple of months, and it feels like we're going to get there.
\n\nAnd I think by the end of this, I mean, our hope, and I think we're on track, is to have a functioning physical product that we're going to offer to consumers with a digital backend to support it, which is, in my mind, amazing. That'll totally validate this idea and prove if we have something or not.
\n\nLINDSEY: I was going to ask if you're open to sharing what those goals specifically are. Is that it? Is it that by the end, you have --
\n\nMIKE: Is that it? Lindsey, that's a lot.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nCHRIS: It's a lot. I mean, yeah. I mean, we're going to have a physical object in the world that you can buy via an e-commerce site --
\n\nJORDYN: Sounds like we need Lindsey on the team if Lindsey feels like this is so achievable. [laughter]
\n\nCHRIS: Yeah, yeah. Lindsey...yeah. We're in the beginning [crosstalk 15:47]
\n\nLINDSEY: I meant, is that the goal?
\n\nCHRIS: That is the goal.
\n\nLINDSEY: Is that all?
\n\nCHRIS: I was going to –-
\n\nLINDSEY: Is that all you got?
\n\nCHRIS: Mike, do you agree?
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. Is that the goal? Yes, that is the goal. I mean, you know, when we sat down with the thoughtbot team kind of week one, you know, they're sort of like, "All right, let's define kind of the experiment." So, we refer to them as experiments, which I think is helpful because, like, what are the experiments that we want to be doing during our time here? And, you know, we talked about it a lot.
\n\nAnd yeah, I think it's, you know, having a physical product out in the world, having a website in which to sell it. But also, it's really like Chris was saying, it's like, it's market validation, and just making sure we actually have something that people want. It's like, you know, running a startup takes so long and, like [laughs], you know, you'll do it for so many years. It's like bands when people say, like, "Oh, that's an overnight sensation." It's like, you know, that band has been slogging it out in tiny, little venues for four years before you ever heard of them.
\n\nIt's like, that's what so much of the startup world feels like to me, too. It's like, "Oh, you're just getting started as a startup?" It's like, "Well, we've been working on this forever." And I know how long this can take. And so, I think we want to learn as early as possible, like, is this something people actually want? Because if they don't, like, we'll just go do something else. I don't want to spend years making something that people don't want.
\n\nSo, I think the biggest goal, for me, is just validation, and then that is sort of how we get there is like, okay, how do we validate this? Cool. Let's identify some, you know, assumptions of personas that we think are people who do actually want this and then try to go sell it to them. And all the implications from that are, okay, well, you need a website where somebody can buy it. You need a physical product that somebody can actually buy. So, all those things sort of come out of that, but, for me, it's like, proving that assumption, is this thing real? Do people actually want this? And everything else is like, okay, how do we prove that?
\n\nLINDSEY: Jordyn, what does that look like in these first few weeks here? User interviews, I assume, how are the user interviews going?
\n\nJORDYN: Always. Always. So, you know, we kick it off by just, like, doing the exercise where we list everybody who might want this. And the team, you know, it's a fun product. Everybody brought their own assumptions and ideas to the table on that. You know, we had a lot of different scenarios we were imagining. It's super fun getting that stuff out of people's heads, just, like, what are we all thinking?
\n\nAnd then, you know, we get to negotiate, like, okay...I always encourage everyone to think, like, if everyone else on the team was on the moon, you had to make a decision about a market segment to pick; which one would you pick? And then we kind of argue about it in a productive way. It really helps us get at, like, what are the dynamics that we think matter upfront? And then we pick one, or, in this case, we have a few. We have a handful.
\n\nAnd we're running interview projects where we just recruit people to talk about people that meet this persona, talk about a specific problem. We're in the middle of that right now. And it's fun, fantastic. These conversations are super interesting. We're validating a lot of the things that Mike and Chris, you know, walked into this with, but we're learning a bunch of new things as well.
\n\nAnd, like, really, part of the aim there is to validate that there's a hole in the market that we might fill but also to hear the language people are using to describe this stuff. So, when people talk about buying music, merch, you know, making playlists, et cetera, like, what language do they use to talk about that? So that we make sure we're speaking the language that our customer uses to describe this stuff. And we're, you know, we're right in the pocket of doing that, learning stuff all the time.
\n\nAnd it helps us kind of hone the messaging. It helps us know where to go talk to people about it, how to talk about it, but it's, you know, it all kind of fits together. And it's just this, really...the early stages. It's just a bunch of us in a room, a virtual room, in this case, sort of, like, tossing ideas around. But out of it crystallizes this sense of alignment about who this is for, how to talk to them about it, and with a goal.
\n\nAnd, you know, Mike and Chris walked in with the exact right mindset about this, which is, yes, it's experiments. We need to validate it. Let's make sure there's a there-there. If there's a there-there, let's figure out where it is [laughs], like, all those things. And we're running these experiments, and it was really [inaudible 19:36]. We got down to business quite quickly here. It was really great.
\n\nLINDSEY: Like you said, it's not necessarily a problem or, you know, the typical framing of a problem. How do you start those user interview questions around this? Do you feel a gap between the physical and the digital sound? [laughter]
\n\nJORDYN: No, no.
\n\nLINDSEY: It's maybe not it [laughs].
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, no. Well, I can tell you what our startup questions are. One of them is, tell me about the last time you bought music merch. Go for it, Lindsey. Tell us.
\n\nLINDSEY: The last time I bought music merch, I went to a Tegan and Sara concert a few weeks ago, and I bought a T-shirt.
\n\nJORDYN: Tell me about buying that T-shirt. Why'd you buy it?
\n\nLINDSEY: Because I wanted to remember the show and my time with my friends, and I wanted to support the artists. I know that buying merch is the best way to support your favorite touring artists.
\n\nJORDYN: So, it's just, you know, we could spend the rest of this time talking [laughter] [crosstalk 20:34], and it would be awesome. So, it's really a lot of things like that.
\n\nLINDSEY: Gotcha.
\n\nJORDYN: You don't ask, "What problem are you trying to solve by buying this t-shirt?" Right? Like, that's not, you know, but we ask you to tell us a bunch of stories about when you did this recently. You know, and if you make playlists for friends, you know, that's a different persona. But we would have asked, you know, like, "Tell me about the last playlist you made. You know, who did you share it with? You know, what happened after that? What happened after that? What happened after that?" It's a lot of questions like that. And there's just nothing better. People love to tell you what's going on with them. And it's great [laughs].
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. As you all have been doing these interviews, Mike and Chris, have you been surprised by anything? Any interesting insights that you're seeing already?
\n\nCHRIS: I mean, I haven't done really much in the way of user interviews in the past. This is a really new experience for me. And then we're, obviously, not on the calls because that would be weird and probably intimidating for people. But we're getting lots of highlights from folks who are doing them, you know, in our daily sync.
\n\nAnd I'm surprised at how many, like, really intense, like, playlist nerds we have found even just in, like, the few people we've talked to, like, in the best possible way. Like, people who are like, "I make playlists all the time." Like, you're talking about, like, a vinyl fan or, like, a...Jordyn, what's the story? It's, like, the guy who there was so much out-of-print vinyl that he started a vinyl label just to get the albums in vinyl. [crosstalk 21:56]
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah. There were a bunch of releases that he feels really passionately about that were never released on vinyl that he knew would never be released on vinyl. And so, he started a vinyl record label. And we just found this guy [laughter].
\n\nCHRIS: Is that indicative that that's, like, an entire persona we're going to, like, target? Absolutely not. But it's just, like, it's amazing that even just in the few user interviews we've done, that we've found so many very passionate people. And it's sent me down, like, a TikTok rabbit hole of, like, TikTok, like, music nerd influencer-type folks who are posting playlists.
\n\nAnd they, like, hundreds of thousands of likes on these videos that are literally just, like, screen with text on it that you're supposed to, like, pause the video [laughs] and, like, look at, like, the songs that they're recommending. And it's like, who does that? And it was like, these people do that. And it's like, so there are...it's been very encouraging to me, actually. I was worried that we were going to find not as much passion as we had suspected, and I think the opposite has proven to be true. So, it's exciting.
\n\nCHRIS: Yeah, I completely agree with Mike. It's been so encouraging. I think, for me, what we're doing is an idea that I'm very excited about and have been very excited about for a long time. But hearing the responses that we're getting makes me confident in the idea, too. That's great. I mean, I think that is everything that a founder needs, you know, is excitement and confidence.
\n\nMIKE: Well, and just the whole user interview experience has, like, made a lot of my other conversations sort of I've tried to frame parts of them as user interviews because I'm talking to a lot of, like, label folks now, and artists, merch people. And, you know, I ended up just sort of, like, asking them, I mean, yes, trying to explain the product and work on kind of partnership stuff, but a lot of it is really just geeking out with them. And just, like, hearing their thoughts about, like, what they love about merch because these are people that clearly think about this stuff all the time. So, it's definitely kind of, like, tuned my other conversations into trying to get unbiased feedback.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. Everything is a little user interview now.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, exactly.
\n\nLINDSEY: Get that angle in there. All right, so some early validation and excitement. That's really cool to hear. Any challenges or, you know, other kinds of learnings early on? Anything that's been invalidated?
\n\nMIKE: I don't know that we're there yet. [inaudible 24:02] Chris, I don't know. I'm happy to find that some things are invalidated, but I don't really feel...you know, some of the personas that we decided or maybe just one of the personas we decided to pursue, I think we're having a hard time having those user interviews kind of really bear fruit, but that's helpful, too, actually. I mean, it's like, okay, well, maybe that's not a group that we target.
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah. It's about, like, [inaudible 24:24]. I encourage folks not to think about this like a 'no, not that,' and instead think of it as like a 'not yet.' And that's, I think, the dynamic here with a couple of the personas we were interested in. It's just been turned into kind of, like, a not yet for reasons that we very quickly figured out, but we'll get there. It's just a matter of figuring out we had some other personas take precedence because they're more sort of red, hot in a way, right? It's just easier to get in contact with these people, or it's, like, clear what they're going for or what they need from the market.
\n\nSo, you know, we have this whole list, and it was not clear at first who was going to kind of stand out. But we've kind of found some focus there, which means, invariably, that there's things that are falling out of the frame for now, and you're kind of de-prioritizing them. But it really is, like, a we'll get to that [laughs]. We'll eventually get to that.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. And part of the process, who's going to rise to the top right now?
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, exactly.
\n\nLINDSEY: Do you have anything you can show and tell with us today or not yet?
\n\nMIKE: So, Chris has been hard at work on all the physical side of this stuff and going back and forth with our manufacturing partner and all that good stuff. But we have a final version of the mixtape product.
\n\nLINDSEY: For when this gets pulled into the podcast, Mike's showing us a physical card.
\n\nCHRIS: It's a small card, and we call them Goodz. And it's printed on three-millimeter plywood using a UV printing process, super durable. And this is something you can put in your pocket. You're not going to wreck it. I think you could actually (Don't quote me on this.), but I think you can even, like, put it through a washing machine, and it would be fine. Embedded in this card is a chip that can be read by your phone, and that's pretty much what we're working with.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, so the idea is you just sort of tap this, and it'll take you to a streaming version of a playlist. And then Chris has also been making these adorable crates. And [crosstalk 26:10]
\n\nLINDSEY: The little crates I love.
\n\nMIKE: And we actually have some wooden ones, too, in the testing that's [crosstalk 26:15]
\n\nLINDSEY: And then the mixtapes get stored in the little crates [crosstalk 26:19]
\n\nMIKE: Yeah. So, you could have --
\n\nLINDSEY: Throw it on your desk.
\n\nCHRIS: Each crate can hold about, I think, 15 of these things. What's really cool about this product on the physical side is we are using a tried-and-true technology, which is NFC chips. These are things that make Apple Pay work, make Google Pay work. They are in your E-ZPass when you drive through a toll booth. This is stuff that's been around for years. So, we're just kind of leveraging this technology that's been around for so long in a new way.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, I think it's similar to kind of the evolution of QR codes, right? It's like they were sort of around forever, and then it was, like, COVID and restaurant menus kind of kicked those into mainstream. Like, NFC has been around for a long time. It's very tried and true. It's affordable. But I want to say Apple only turned it on by default, like, the NFC reader in the iPhone in the last, like, 18 to 24 months, right? Like, it started...like, it's been around for a while, but they're sort of slowly kind of...and now you just sort of see it everywhere. People are using it on the subways in New York to scan for tickets or for accessing stuff.
\n\nI was also just showing Chris has been prototyping with the ability to sort of keep these on a key ring. So, we have, like, a little chain hole on them. It is [inaudible 27:22] to sort of have this on your backpack or, you know, on a key ring, or something like that. And friends could kind of, like, come up to you and just, like, scan one that looks interesting.
\n\nCHRIS: And yeah, something that's awesome about this is you don't need an app. You don't need to download anything. As long as your NFC reader is on when you scan this, it will bring you to the music that it's linked to, which I think is awesome. So, I mean, my dream is to have these, like, hanging off of people's backpacks so I can, like, scan them in the subway or, you know, it's such, like, an easy thing to do. And it requires so little technical time on the user's end to be able to do it.
\n\nLINDSEY: Oh, we got a question here. "So, Moo used to offer NFC cards. What made you decide to do the thicker plywood model?"
\n\nCHRIS: Durability is really what it comes down to. We wanted something that felt like an object that you can have and treasure. Like, these have weight, you know, these feel like something, not just a piece of paper. This is something that you can have and [inaudible 28:22] your desk, and it's not going to fade in the sunlight. It's not going to disintegrate over time. This is something that's going to last.
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, the cards would definitely, like, as I would sort of carry them around and show them to people and stuff, the cards would start, you know, breaking. It's like having a business card in your pocket, right? Eventually, it's going to kind of wear out. And plus, we had, like, the stickers were visible on the back of them. And we were, like, having the sticker just completely disappear inside the wood; it just feels a little bit more like magic.
\n\nLINDSEY: Well, thanks for demoing there. I put you on the spot a little bit. But they are...I had seen them in the Slack, and they're very cool [laughs]. So, I had to ask if we could show them off a bit.
\n\nMIKE: Of course.
\n\nCHRIS: I think another thing to think about, too, is we've been talking a lot about the user experience. But if and when we get to the point of making these for artists, artists will be able to collect so much data off of the way that people buy and collect and use these things over time, which is something that we're really, really excited about. And also, you know, we're working on a way to make the link in the object updatable over time. So, artists will be able to change what a card points do to inform their users about the latest and greatest thing.
\n\nLINDSEY: Very cool. Jordyn, what's next on the programming agenda for Chris and Mike?
\n\nJORDYN: It's really sort of we're in this, like, iterative cycle. So, we're talking to folks. We're working on the website. The conversations we're having with people are informing how we're framing this first experiment with the mixtape, how we're marketing it, who we're marketing it to. I think next up is probably a Google Ad experiment to really see if we can piggyback on some stuff or at least figure out a new consumer product. It's so tough, right?
\n\nIt's also not a thing people are searching for. So, we have to come up with some experiments for how we get people to that website [laughs]. So, you know, Google Ads funnels is just something you kind of have to do because it's very interesting to figure out what people are responding to, what people are searching for. But we're going to have a bunch of other experiments as well and non-experiments. Outbound experiments: can we go to people? Can we get listed in a gift-buying guide for the holidays? Or, like, we don't know. There's a bunch of experiments we need to do around that, which is really just this iteration.
\n\nWe won't stop talking to users, but, you know, everything we're hearing from them will inform where we go and how we talk to the folks in those places where we end up. And really, it's just about starting...once this is up and, you know, there's, like, an orderable thing, there's, like, a whole data cycle where we start to learn from the stuff we're testing; we actually have some real data for it, and we can start to tweak, iterate and change our strategy.
\n\nBut the bigger thing, also, is this bigger platform. So, the next thing really, the big next thing, is to sort of start to scope and create an architecture idea. What's it going to take to build the actual backend thing? And it's the thing that thoughtbot really [laughs] excels at, which is software. So, you know, that's the big next kind of project. Once the mixtape experiment is sort of out and in flight and we're getting data, we really need to turn our attention to the technical backend.
\n\nLINDSEY: Exciting. Another comment/question from Jeff, who maybe needs a user interview. "Love the crate more than the actual albums. Maybe offer collections of artists."
\n\nMIKE: Yeah, that's the plan.
\n\nCHRIS: Yeah, definitely. It's a good idea. Yeah, it's, I mean, and labels get to, especially, like, small indie labels get really excited about doing, like, crates worth of collections of different artists or, like, you know, digging through their back catalog, their subscription services. There's a lot of different angles for sure about that idea.
\n\nLINDSEY: [inaudible 31:55] Chris and Mike, going into this next section of the programming, for anyone watching right now, or watching the recording, or listening to the recording, any action items from them? You know, are you looking for any user interviews or have any survey or any destinations you'd like to send people yet?
\n\nCHRIS: Not quite yet, but soon, I would say. Well --
\n\nMIKE: I mean, [inaudible 32:19] plug the website, I mean, you know, I think we've got, like, an email to sign up from there, right? The URL is getthegoodz.com and I [crosstalk 32:27]
\n\nLINDSEY: Goodz with a Z.
\n\nMIKE: Goodz with a Z.
\n\nCHRIS: With Z.
\n\nMIKE: So yeah, if you want to go there, you can sign up. I think there's an email signup on there to learn more.
\n\nLINDSEY: Perfect. All right. getthegoodz.com email sign up. To stay up to date on Goodz and the incubator, you can follow along on the thoughtbot blog. You know, as always, send us any questions you might have, and we're happy to get to those. But otherwise, thanks for listening.
\n\nAnd thank you all — Jordyn, Chris, and Mike. Thanks so much for joining today and sharing and being open about your stories so far.
\n\nMIKE: Thank you.
\n\nCHRIS: Yeah, thank you, Lindsey.
\n\nAD:
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Special Guests: Chris Cerrito and Mike Rosenthal.
","summary":"This episode introduces the second participants of the season's thoughtbot's Incubator Program, Mike Rosenthal and Chris Cerrito. Mike has a background in music industry marketing, and Chris is a maker and tinkerer with experience in exhibit development. They're developing a product combining physical objects with digital content, starting with music. Their concept involves creating physical items like wooden mixtapes with NFC chips linking to digital playlists. This blend of physical and digital aims to revive the tangible aspects of fan engagement in a digital era.\r\n\r\nTheir project, named Goodz, is the first pure consumer product in the Incubator program, adding complexities like supply chain and manufacturing considerations. The team is conducting user interviews to validate market interest and refine their messaging. They aim to have a functioning physical product and a supporting digital backend by the end of the program. Challenges include defining the target market and understanding how to attract customers to a new product type. The thoughtbot team is excited about the project due to its fun nature and technical aspects, offering a fresh perspective compared to problem-focused startups.\r\n\r\nThe conversation also explores the broader implications of bridging the digital and physical worlds in fan engagement, with the potential to collect valuable data for artists and create lasting, meaningful connections for fans.","date_published":"2023-11-14T00:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/b253d984-0f9b-481d-a798-822ae375d449.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":33749166,"duration_in_seconds":2015}]},{"id":"f244fe72-ce42-47f8-b563-aee8c44c14ed","title":"499: Infinite Red with Jamon Holmgren","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/499","content_text":"Jamon Holmgren is the founder of Infinite Red, a consultancy specializing in React Native. He discusses his journey and insights into technology and leadership and highlights how Infinite Red stands as a testament that businesses can be run ethically while still achieving success.\n\nThe conversation shifts to leadership styles and the principle of \"one-minute praise\" from the book \"One Minute Manager.\" Both Jamon and Will agree that acknowledging others' efforts openly can make a significant difference, enhancing leadership skills and building stronger relationships. Will points out how this simple principle has been a game-changer for him in various aspects of life, including his personal relationships.\n\nTowards the end, the focus turns to motivation and long-term strategy. Jamon is driven by his enthusiasm for learning and the thrill of tackling diverse challenges in his consultancy work. He also shares his philosophy of keeping the company \"10 degrees above the horizon,\" emphasizing steady, sustainable growth rather than erratic leaps and bounds.\n\n\n\n\nInfinite Red\nFollow Infinite Red on LinkedIn, X, YouTube, GitHub, Facebook, or Instagram.\nFollow Jamon Holmgren on LinkedIn or X. Visit his website at jamon.dev.\nFollow thoughtbot on X or LinkedIn.\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. And with me today is Jamon Holmgren, Co-Founder and CTO of Infinite Red, a software consulting agency that specializes in React Native. Jamon, thank you for joining me.\n\nJAMON: Yeah. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.\n\nWILL: So, Jamon, what's going on in your life? How's everything going?\n\nJAMON: You know, things have been obviously very busy, like, I guess, pretty much everybody. You know, school has started. I have four kids, so that keeps me quite busy, going to various school events, going to volleyball, you know, bringing kids here and there, running the company. I have some side projects I'm doing. I am playing hockey. So, it just seems like every waking hour is filled with something.\n\n[laughter]\n\nWILL: I totally understand that. I have three kids of my own. So, they're a little bit younger than yours, so mine is 4, 3, and, like, 17 months, so... \n\nJAMON: Okay. Yeah, so you're just getting started. And you're doing all of the, like, physical labor associated with being a parent.\n\nWILL: Yes, yes, yes. So, I want to start there. Tell me a little bit about your kids. I know their ages are 10 to 18.\n\nJAMON: Yeah, so I have a boy, Cedric. He's actually a programmer as well. He's just starting his career. He is the oldest, and then we have three girls. We have a 15-year-old who's a sophomore in high school. And then we have a 12-year-old who's in middle school and a 10-year-old who is in fifth grade in elementary school. And it's a lot. \n\nMy wife and I both came from very large families, so we're kind of used to it. And it's a lot of fun. A lot of challenges at this age, I mean, teenagers especially, you know, as they kind of all come into that same era, you know, it's more of a challenge. I guess the thing that I think about it is a lot of the skills that I learned as a young kid parent don't really translate super well to being a teenager parent. And I'm having to learn a lot of new skills. And I actually talked to a guy the other day. His kids are, I think, 32 and 28, or something like that. And he said, \"Yeah, the learning never stops.\" [laughs]\n\nWILL: So, I'm going to ask you for the secret sauce because I'm still in the temper tantrums and those type of emotions and stuff. So, how is it different in the teenage years from the temper tantrums?\n\nJAMON: Well, I think that they can act like adults in a lot of cases, and you start thinking of them as adults, and you start developing a relationship there. But their brains are also not fully developed. And so, they will also do things that are very inexplicable, like, you'll just be like, why? Why would this be a thing? Like, I don't get it. Like, you act like an adult for half the time, and then the other half, you act like a kid. Navigating that, and the fact that they change all the time, and all the other challenges.\n\nAnd they're all different. Like, if we had only had one kid, you know, my boy was pretty easy. He was pretty straightforward. It would have been like, well, shoot, being a parent is pretty easy. Like, I don't know what everybody else is complaining about. Like, he never did tantrums. He was just a really quiet, you know, like, well-behaved kid and kind of went through life like that. But then, obviously, developing a relationship with him is more of the challenge because he's quieter, where with my girls, it's easier to develop the relationship, but then you [laughs] deal with a lot more volatility as well. So, they're all different. Every kid's different. It's hard to really apply that directly. \n\nI would say that the thing that I've learned the most in the last few years is just kind of continuing to be, like, even through some of the tougher times, continuing to be there, continuing to develop that relationship. A lot of times, it feels like you're not getting anywhere, but you are. It is actually happening. You just don't see it until later.\n\nWILL: I'm writing that down. That's great advice [laughter]. You mentioned hockey. Tell me about it. I've never played hockey. I grew up in the South, so we didn't have that. So, tell me about it. And you're a goalie also, correct?\n\nJAMON: Yeah, I play goalie. I didn't discover hockey...I played basketball in high school. I played four years of high school basketball. I even played a little bit at college. And I didn't really discover hockey until I moved to Southwest Washington, about an hour away from where I grew up in the coast of Oregon. When I got there, a lot of my friends that I made were playing hockey. And one friend, in particular, he was a goalie, and he had grown up in Upper Michigan. So, you know, like, he grew up playing hockey. He was a very good skater and things like that. \n\nBut there was one weekend I was coming to watch him play just rec hockey. And he's like, \"You know what? I can't make it. Would you want to jump in and, like, be my sub?\" And it was just a pick-up game. So, it wasn't like there was anything on the line. And I was like, \"All right, I'll give it a try.\" You know, put on the gear. He showed me what to do to put on the gear. He kind of gave me some tips. Like, in the living room where we were, he was, like, showing me how to play. \n\nWe were, like, I would say, 19, I think. Nineteen years old, something like that. Anyway, I show up, and I put on the gear, and I go out there. And I actually had a decent game, considering I barely knew how to skate and barely knew how to do anything. But I'm kind of big; I'm six foot four, almost six foot five. And having all that gear and everything, I filled up a lot of the net. And it wasn't a very high-level game, so I did pretty well. \n\nAnd after that, the team was like, \"Well, we'd love to have you back.\" And then my friend really was not interested in continuing, so he was like, \"You can have it, like, just roll with it.\" I kept playing for about three years, and then, I don't know, I took over a decade off. The team dissolved. It wasn't even a league team. It was just, you know, pick-up hockey. \n\nAnd then a friend called me and was like, \"Hey, I'm starting up a game. It's going to be Finnish Americans,\" because I'm half-Finnish myself. \"So, it's going to be all Finnish Americans. We're going to call it the [Foreign language],\" which is the Finnish boys in sort of Finnish. It's not exactly supposed to be like that in Finnish. Anybody listening who's Finnish is going to be like, \"Yeah, that's bad Finnish.\" But it kind of means Finnish boys or Finland boys. \n\nAnd we put together the team, and I've been playing for the last three-plus years. It's been kind of, like, a rec league team. We've won the championship four times, which was really fun. This year, I'm actually playing in two leagues. I'm playing in rec league, and I'm also playing the next league up, so a little bit faster, better skaters, better shooters, things like that. And I just love it. It's so much fun.\n\nWILL: Wow, that's amazing that you started later and that you're still playing it. Because when I look at hockey, I'm like, that's really hard. I don't know if I could do that. I can skate. I can't stop.\n\nJAMON: [laughs]\n\nWILL: Like, I can get a lot of speed [laughs]. But it's just something about turning sideways and thinking I'm going to fly over the skates.\n\nJAMON: [laughs]\n\nWILL: And yeah, it's a whole thing [laughs]. Is goalie harder than playing any of the other positions?\n\nJAMON: I would say it's different. Like, I don't have to be as good of a skater, you know, things like hockey stops are still not supernatural for me. I don't skate backwards super-fast. You know, I'm not a fast skater in general. But the difference is, of course, you have to be reading the flow of the game. You have to know the body language of the players that are coming at you. You have to kind of see what's happening. At the end of the day, lots of things can happen, so you try to put yourself in the best position. \n\nIt's a lot of, like, positional, like, where are you in the net? What does your position look like? And then, once they shoot, how do you react? Are you dropping down, or are you staying up? Are you using your glove? Are you using your blocker? Are you just trying to block with your body using your stick? Then, once the puck hits you, then what do you do? How do you control the rebound? Are you trying to cover it up and ice the puck so they do a face-off? Are you trying to kick it out to one of your skaters? \n\nAnd then, once that happens, you have a little bit of a rest, hopefully, while they're down on the other side. But you're continually alert and watching to see what's going to develop because it could be a breakaway. And then it's just you and the skater and trying to anticipate what they're doing and try to make it so that they have to make a play. Like, just be big, be in position. Don't get out of position. Don't make a mistake. \n\nAnd I've had really great games where I've, you know, had 45 shots on me, and I've only let one in or something like that. And I've had some bad games too. I know there's one game in a championship where they only had six shots on me. But we ended up losing because I let in two, so that was not a fun game. I only had six opportunities, and I failed on two of them. But that happens, and so you just have to be mentally tough.\n\nWILL: Wow, that's amazing. The limited knowledge of hockey...I'm going to assume here, so I hope it's right. With you being 6'4, 6'5, I'm guessing that the five-hole, if I'm correct, was probably your toughest position to defend.\n\nJAMON: You know, you would think so. And just for the audience, the five-hole is, like, between your legs, you know, the puck going between your legs underneath. But I play a style...a little bit older style of goalie because that's what I watched. You know, in, like, the early 2000s, I watched Patrick Roy of the Colorado Avalanche, one of the greatest goalies of all time, and he played what's called a butterfly style. \n\nSo, as the play develops, you're standing, but then you go down fairly early, and you're protecting the bottom. You have your stick in front of you protecting the five-hole, and you have your legs, you know, spread out. So, I used my height really more for blocking as I'm down rather than standing because when I'm standing, I'm above the net. It's better for me to get down. And I think that that's worked out pretty well. \n\nYou know, Patrick Roy was a pretty big goalie as well. Most modern goalies play a more hybrid style. But, you know, we could get into all that. I'm a big kind of hockey nerd in this way. But that's what I do. I play butterfly, so most of the time, people don't beat me five-hole; when they do, it's usually they're picking a corner.\n\nWILL: Wow. Now that you've painted the picture, I can see how that's smart because you do have the goal, I mean, the gloves plus the stick and then your height. Yeah, I can see how...that's smart. That's very smart [laughs].\n\nJAMON: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's kind of the goal. And also, because I wasn't a great skater, it sort of played into it as well, playing down on the ice where I was just more comfortable that way. It's worked out. I've had a pretty decent record over my career here [laughs].\n\nWILL: That's awesome. Well, let's transition a little bit into consultant agencies. You've been doing it for 18 years. Tell me about that. How did you get started?\n\nJAMON: Well, when I started, I was working in construction. I was working for a home builder. And, you know, everybody I knew pretty much worked in construction, including my dad, who owned a business. And I went on my own. I had always dreamed of owning my own business, but I didn't start really thinking about websites. I was coding. I loved coding, and I was coding since I was 12. \n\nSo, when I got to 23 years old, I thought, I'll start a business, and I'll do home design because that's what I was doing for the builder was, I was drawing homes. I was designing homes and remodels and things like that. And so, I started it doing that. But I also needed a little bit extra work. I didn't have enough work. Like, I had people, you know, sending me work, you know, home design and whatnot, but I didn't have quite enough. So, I would also build websites on the side, PHP and HTML, MySQL, and JavaScript. And I just sort of continued to do that. \n\nBut in 2008, there was the housing crisis, and all of the design work for homes just dried up. There wasn't much there. In fact, it actually really dried up in 2007 because things kind of started a little early for designers. And so, I was like; I got to do something to stay busy. I've got a wife. I've got a young kid (Actually, at that point, I had two kids.), and I need to make sure that I'm staying busy. And so, I really ramped up trying to find work, you know, as a programmer, as a web developer. \n\nAnd there were plenty of companies at that time that were really trying to drum up business. So, they were putting money into their websites trying to get new projects, and they were all construction companies. And so, that's how I started. And I started doing more things like internal web apps for managing orders and managing sales leads, and that sort of thing. And that led me into web apps and eventually to Ruby on Rails, which became sort of my bread and butter for a while.\n\nAs I was doing Ruby on Rails, you know, obviously, the iPhone was out, but the iPad came out. And I was more of an Android guy at that point. But I bought an iPad because it looked really cool, and my dad had one. When I started playing around with it, I'm like, I need to build apps for this. This is super cool. So, I took some Stanford courses online, which you could do back in those days, iTunes U, and learned how to use Objective-C. \n\nThis was previous to Automatic Reference Counting and stuff. So, you had to manage your own memory, and this was a lot of manual work; very different environment than JavaScript, and PHP, and Ruby. But I actually enjoyed it quite a bit and then eventually transitioned into React Native later. But really, getting over to mobile and that sort of thing was...once I found mobile, I really didn't want to do web anymore. Mobile is what I really enjoy doing. \n\nWILL: Wow, I love that. If I'm following you correctly, you said in 2007, that's kind of when everything dried up. So, you were almost forced to find something different, correct?\n\nJAMON: Yeah, that's right. I mean, I kind of sat around feeling sorry for myself for a while. And then I was like, well, it's my business. I got to figure out what to do. It's not anybody else's fault. Like, you know, it doesn't matter that this is forces out of my control. I do have control. I have the ability to go in there and figure out, okay, what do I do next? Well, I know how to program, and it seems like people want me to program. So, let's lean into that.\n\nWILL: Wow. I love that. Because it's funny, that's how I got started in programming. I lost my job. And I was working at Buckle, the clothing store. If you know me, that is not me at all, like, at all [laughter]. I love gym shorts and athletic clothes. Like, fashion is not my thing. It's just not. So [laughs], I got into programming because I was just struggling. And it was a very pivotal moment in my life. And I'm thankful that I lost my job. Losing your job is just hard, and I think it makes you rethink things.\n\nJAMON: Yeah, absolutely. It was a growth moment for me as well, one of many. But that was definitely a point that I look back on and say, I mean because I can actually point at almost the day when it all dried up. It was, like, April 2007. And my uncle had been sending me a lot of work, you know, he had extra work. He didn't have barely enough for himself anymore at that point. And I finished up my last project, and he's like, \"I don't have anything else.\" And I had some other clients as well and called them up, and they were like, \"No, we don't have anything. Like, nobody is buying right now.\" And it just kept going like that. \n\nAnd it was weird because 2005, 2006, most of 2007, it felt like things were really rolling, but it just dried up all at once. And so, I was really lucky that I did end up getting a bunch of web work to do in 2008. I was still doing home design till probably late 2008, 2009. But then I eventually just hung that up and was like, okay, this is over. I'm definitely focusing on programming.\n\nWILL: Wow, how was the initial traction when you moved into ramping up the web development?\n\nJAMON: It was really good because it didn't take much to keep me busy. And I ended up getting some big contracts from, like, a cabinet manufacturer was a big one. I did some other things as well. And I ended up hiring my first employees in 2009. So, really, less than two years later, I was starting to hire employees. And I just hired, like, junior developers who had barely learned to code and taught them to code. So, I hired probably, over the years, next few years, like, ten programmers, many of whom are actually still with me today, and I taught them to code back in the day. \n\nAnd as time went on, they became senior and really high-level programmers who are now leading projects for big companies that you've heard of. But they started with me building, you know, PHP and MySQL and whatnot for small, like, regional construction companies. And we learned together. So, it was definitely a progression you can go look back and see.\n\nWILL: Yeah, I saw a tweet that you tweeted, and I loved it because I totally understand. \n\nJAMON: [laughs]\n\nWILL: And so, I'm glad you mentioned the junior devs and stuff. The tweet that I'm talking about was, \"I got into this industry to code; ended up becoming a founder because I was the only person who would hire me.\" \n\nJAMON: [laughs]\n\nWILL: I want to ask you about that.\n\n[laughter]\n\nJAMON: Yeah, it's really that I grew up in a small logging town, like, very tiny logging town in Northwest Oregon. I didn't know...I knew one programmer, and the guy was, like, an incredible genius. And I just thought that that was the only way that you could professionally be a programmer was to be an incredible genius. I was coding, but I was, like, coding games, you know, in QBasic. And so, for me, every time I looked around, it was just, like, construction, or logging or, you know, blue collar, like, working at a mill. Like, these were the things that I saw around me. And so, that was the path I went. \n\nAnd I didn't really think of using this passion that I had for coding to turn it into, like, actual money. And when I did start thinking about it, I was like, I don't know anybody who does software. Like, even when I moved to Southwest Washington, I was closer to Portland. But I thought you had to have a CS degree, and I didn't have a CS degree. So, I was like, okay, well, I'll start my own business then, and that will be the thing that kind of leads me into tech. And that's what ended up happening. \n\nAnd it's kind of funny because I did go to, you know, one semester of community college for basketball and for...until I got cut. And then I studied some things there. But I never finished for the community college. What's kind of cool, though, is today, I'm actually on their, like, tech advisory committee. Like, they actually have me advising their professors on the current state of tech, which is kind of cool.\n\nWILL: Wow, that is really cool. It is interesting because I remember when I first started out and that feeling of probably over 300 applications just trying to get a job. And it was just hard. And my first job, to be honest, I think it was because of networking is why I got the job. If I didn't know the person that introduced me to the company, I probably wouldn't have gotten the job, if I'm being honest. \n\nBut I am very sympathetic for junior devs anytime. If a junior dev asks me a question, I will take time, help them out. Because I remember...it's very hard as a junior dev trying to get that first job. So, when you said that, I was like, yeah, I can see your heart towards junior devs.\n\nJAMON: Absolutely. That's where I started. You know, the first developers that I hired were all juniors. We don't hire juniors anymore because of the style of business that we are. But I miss that. I miss that to some degree. We really can't. And we've looked at it from just about every angle. But I did my time [laughs]. I spent a lot of hours teaching junior developers when I could have done it quicker myself.\n\nWILL: Definitely. Like, you end up losing some money when you do a junior dev and you're hiring for the future. So, like, in a consultant agency, I totally understand that, yeah. \n\nJAMON: Yeah, absolutely.\n\nMID-ROLL AD:\n\nNow that you have funding, it's time to design, build, and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future.\n\nthoughtbot Liftoff brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success.\n\nAs your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices.\n\nMake the right decisions for tomorrow today. Get in touch at thoughtbot.com/liftoff.\n\nWILL: So, I want to ask you about the transition from ClearSight Studio to Infinite Red. How did that happen?\n\nJAMON: ClearSight was my first company. And it sort of evolved from being a, you know, a home design/website company to just a website and web app company, and then mobile apps. And, at a certain time, we had, I think, around 12 employees, something like that. I had a design department. We were building websites and whatnot. And I was really interested in iOS development. That was really my passion. \n\nAnd so I actually ended up working on some open source with iOS developers across the globe and then got invited to a conference down in San Francisco in 2014. And I went and gave a talk there. It was my first tech conference that I'd ever been to, much less given a talk, and I was the first talk [laughs]. So, that was kind of an interesting little anecdote there. \n\nAnd as I did it, I got to know some other developers. I had one in particular, Todd Werth, who I really hit it off with, and we ended up chatting a lot after the conference. And it felt like he and I had a very similar outlook. And he had an iOS agency. That's all they did. \n\nWell, 2015 rolls around, and I had had some rough times toward the end of 2014 in terms of the business, and I was kind of complaining to Todd. He had had some issues as well, and we started commiserating. And he's like, you know, he just started joking. I still have this conversation in Slack way back if I go look. And he's like, \"Well, maybe we should just merge our businesses together,\" because it felt like we had maybe complementary skills. And we had a similar outlook on what we wanted from our businesses. And so, we ended up eventually solidifying that. I flew down there, talked to him and his business partner, Ken, at the time. We ended up making that happen later that year. \n\nSo, just a few days ago, October 1st was our eighth anniversary running the companies, running the new company, the merged company, which is Infinite Red. So, that was kind of how that all came together. Eventually, Ken left, and we had a new business partner who was our top employee buy-in; that's Gant Laborde. And so, there are still three owners. We have three directors and then the rest of the team. We're about 30 people altogether, and we focus entirely on React Native.\n\nWILL: Wow, congratulations on eight years. That's a lot. That's amazing.\n\nJAMON: Yeah, thank you. I was just thinking the other day that I ran ClearSight for ten years. Infinite Red is getting close to how long I ran my first business. And, like, my youngest is, like I said, 10. So she was only two years old when I merged the company. She does not remember my old company, which is weird to me.\n\n[laughter]\n\nWILL: Wow. So, can you walk me through your decision to go here with React Native and specialize in that? Because it sounds like right around the time when React Native was created, and people started using it in production.\n\nJAMON: That's right. The iOS technology that we had sort of bonded over at that conference was called RubyMotion. But in 2015, the founder ended up going to work for Microsoft for a while and then went back to Apple. He had been from Apple before. So, it was sort of going down. And we were looking for a different technology, both of our companies were, and then, of course, the merged company. \n\nReact Native looked interesting, but it didn't have an Android version yet. But then, in September of 2015, Android came out, so it was iOS and Android. So, we were able to take a look at that one month before we ended up solidifying the actual merger. So, basically, day one, October 1st, 2015, we were, like, we are now doing React Native for mobile, but we kept doing web. We kept doing Ruby on Rails. We did some Elixir. We did some Elm. We did some...I think we had some old Ember stuff going on. We had all kinds of things going on. \n\nBut over time, we got more and more traction with React Native because that's really where our interest was. And so, we ended up saying, okay, well, this is where we really want to be. It took us a few years. It took us probably five years, six years, something like that, to really develop the confidence to say, \"Hey, this is all we want to do,\" because it's a risk. Like, you put yourself on one technology. We had that before with the other technology that went down. But we had the confidence that we knew we could step off of a sinking ship onto another one if we needed to. So, we said, \"You know what? Let's do this.\" \n\nAnd I got to give my co-founder, Todd, a lot of credit because he was the first one to say, \"Let's go all React Native. Anywhere that React Native is, React Native is on a lot of different platforms. You can do tvOS. You can do Mac. You can do Windows. You can do web with React Native web, all kinds of things. So, let's just focus on React Native. Our team will just focus on that. We will only hire React Native developers. All of our marketing is going to be around React Native. Let's just focus on that.\" \n\nAnd it ended up being a great call. We did that. We made that happen. And for probably the last, I would say, three, four years, something like that, that's all we've been doing.\n\nWILL: So, what's your opinion on, I guess, the argument that's being held right now with native iOS and Android, even the Flutter, and I think Ionic is the other one that I've heard of, versus React Native? What's your pitch on React Native over those?\n\nJAMON: There's definitely reasons to use any of those. But I wrote this article a while back. It was specifically about Flutter, but I think it applies to a lot of the other competitors as well. The title of the article was provocatively titled, \"Flutter Is Better Than React Native in All the Ways That Don't Matter.\" And the idea behind this is that, yes, Flutter gets a lot of things very right. A lot of their developer experience is actually better than React Native; some is worse, but, you know, some is better. \n\nBut really, when it comes down to it, the things that matter are more business level. React Native is good enough. It's like native views. So, you have the native performance. With Hermes, you have really good performance in JavaScript. So, you know that you can get really high-level JavaScript performance. You can ship JavaScript, which really helps because then you can bring in JavaScript developers, and specifically React developers. \n\nSo, a lot of companies already use React. It's a no-brainer to then use React Native if you're already using React Web. It doesn't really make sense to go to Flutter. It makes maybe some sense to write it in native, but then you have to write it twice. And you have three teams. You have a web team. You have an iOS team, and you have an Android team. And you also have three codebases, and one's always lagging behind. That's always what's happening. \n\nMarketing is like, \"Okay, when can we announce this?\" \"Well, iOS isn't done,\" or \"Android is not done,\" or \"Web is not done.\" Where if you can combine all of those things and combine just the culture of your team, then it becomes more tight-knit because everybody's working on all aspects at one time. You can take a feature, and you can build it in web, and you can build it in iOS, and you can build it Android with all the same skills. \n\nNow, there are some deeper parts of React Native. It goes really deep. But in terms of just being productive out of the gate, a React developer can be productive in week one, and that's, I think, a huge deal. So, it really comes down to is the performance and developer experience good enough? And the answer is absolutely yes.\n\nAnd then, secondly, like, what's the business case for React Native? Well, you can have the same developers doing iOS, Android, and web, and even if you don't, you can share techniques. You can be like, \"Hey, here's this cool JavaScript thing,\" and the Kotlin developers aren't just like, \"Ugh, you know, JavaScript.\" Or you can be like, \"Hey, here's our TypeScript configuration across the whole codebase.\" You can even have a monorepo with everything in it. It just makes a lot of sense that way. And especially now with Expo, it makes it even more that way because Expo removes a lot of the barriers for web developers that they would have coming into native. \n\nSo, with that in mind, I still see React Native dominating the apps that are at the top of the App Store. One of the Expo developers, Evan Bacon, has put out a bunch of tweets about, you know, like, 24 out of the top 100 food and drink apps are written in React Native, as opposed to 8 in all the other options combined other than native, you know. So, it gives a good sense that React Native is still growing and continuing to. It has a lot of steam behind it. \n\nWILL: Yeah, I totally agree with you. I'm a big React Native fan, and I do a lot of React Native work here. So, yes, totally agree with you. And one of the most frustrating things that I've come across is, I'm a big researcher, and so I'll research things, and I'm like, oh, there's an app for this. And I'm a big Android fan, so when I go to them, it's like, oh yes, I can use this app. And then it's like, no, I can't. It's only for iOS. Okay, like, you lost me as a customer. \n\nJAMON: [laughs]\n\nWILL: I was willing to pay whatever on this because I've been looking for it. So yeah, I like how you said that.\n\nJAMON: Yeah. It treats all of the platforms as first-class citizens.\n\nWILL: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Totally agree. How does your company handle the backend? Do y'all do any of the backend, or how is that handled at Infinite Red?\n\nJAMON: We used to do that, like I mentioned. But a few years ago...we had a very, very small back-end team by then. Most of the time, and now pretty much 100% of the time, when someone comes to us, they already have a back-end team, so we work directly with them. A lot of our developers were back-end developers, and so they understand the backend really well, but they're obviously React Native specialists now. \n\nSo, you know, I came from that. I did PHP. I did Ruby, Ruby on Rails, Elixir, Node, all kinds of back-end technology. So, I understand it really well as well. But yeah, we lean on our clients for that. We might partner with an agency like you folks over there at thoughtbot and have them do the backend, or just have the client, you know, come up with their own solution.\n\nWILL: Yeah, I love that, yeah. And we've done that with numerous agencies, so yeah, that's awesome. What does success look like for Infinite Red now versus, you know, six months or five years from now? Do y'all have any goals in mind that you're trying to hit?\n\nJAMON: In the Infinite Red leadership, we are currently reading John Maxwell's 21 indisputable Laws of Leadership, which is a good book. And we had this really great conversation at our first book club meeting in leadership, which John Maxwell defines success in a very different way than we do. You know, he measured it as, like, McDonald's, or Starbucks, or something like that, like, giant, becoming huge, becoming big, making tons of money. And it was sort of just implicit in the book that that was the case. \n\nWe had this great talk internally. Why didn't this resonate with us? And that's because we don't really measure success that way. So, I love that question, Will, because measuring success is you really have to start there. Like, you have to start there and say, \"What do we want from this?\" So, ultimately, we want to build cool things with our friends. I'm a coding nerd. I want to code. I want to be in the code. That's why we're an agency. Like, if we were a product company, if we were building, I don't know, podcasting software or something, we'd have to become experts in podcasting rather than experts in React Native, or experts in TypeScript, or whatever we want to do. \n\nSo, we really love code. We want to build that. We want to have an amazing family-first environment. We want to treat everybody super well. We want to have really low turnover, which we've been able to achieve. Hardly anybody leaves Infinite Red. Maybe every other year, we might lose one person. And even with those people, they tend to come back [laughs], which is a great sign. They go out and find out that, yeah, actually, Infinite Red is pretty awesome, and they come back. So, we really look for that. We really focus on that. We want that to happen. \n\nAnd it's really less about making the most money we can. Obviously, everybody wants to be well paid. And so, we're going to try to make sure we have a successful business in that way and that we want to be around for a long time. But, really, measuring success is less about business success and it's more about life success. It's really more about family success, being with my four kids, being there for them when they need me to be. That's why we're remote, you know, as another example. So, everything really hinges off of that. It's around happiness. It's around fulfillment. It's not around financial success.\n\nWILL: I'm a huge John Maxwell fan, by the way. \n\nJAMON: [laughs] There you go.\n\nWILL: So, yes, I love it. And I love how you explained, you know, because one of my questions I was going to ask you is about the core values, but I'm going to switch it up a little bit. So, I'm just going to say, in my opinion, I feel like there's almost leadership talk void at times, especially in the tech space. Like, we don't talk about leadership a lot. But it plays a huge part in what we do day to day. Like, you named a couple of core values and principles that you're following because of the leadership. So, for you, why is the leadership so important and I guess you can say have a seat at the table at Infinite Red?\n\nJAMON: I'm a strong believer, and I've become more of a strong believer over time, that it all starts at the top. If you don't have buy-in from your top leadership, it does not really matter what happens otherwise because they will continually undermine, and they have the power to continually undermine that. So, these core values have to apply to the top leaders. They have to be held accountable to that. And these leaders also need to be developed. \n\nSo, we have three owners. We have three directors. And the three directors who are underneath us were not directors when we hired them; you know, they started out as developers. They started out as designers. They started out as project managers. But they became Director of Operations, Director of Engineering, Director of Communications. And we developed them. We poured a lot of time into them, and we continue to do that. In fact, even reading this book with them and going through that exercise is continuing to invest in them. Not that we as owners don't have growth to do; we also do. And so, we learn from them, and we learn from our team. So, you have to start there. \n\nAnd on that same vein, we do have some core values. We call them our foundation and our pillars. We have three foundational things, and we have four pillars. So, the three foundations are: one, we control our own destiny. We are not going to be beholden to some other company. We're not going to ride someone else's coattails. We're not going to be in a situation where someone else can kill us. And it can be easily done that way where we're in a position where, you know, we're too reliant on one whale client or something like that. We just won't do it. \n\nThe second foundational thing is that we have...it's a word bonitas, which means kindness, friendliness, benevolence, blamelessness. And it's basically just being a good person to everybody and doing the right thing. \n\nAnd the third one is having a significant positive impact. That's why we do so much media. That's why we try to have an impact outside. And we're only 30 people, but people think we're way bigger because of how we kind of present ourselves in the world. And then our pillars all support those things, so high personal support. We support each other. We have high expectations, but we also support each other not just at work but also as a whole person.\n\nLong-term viewpoint, we think way beyond this year. We think about what is Infinite Red going to be when I retire? You know, I'm 41; that's a ways out, hopefully. But what's that going to look like? \n\nThe next one is collaborative creativity. Creativity by yourself is just a solo thing. We're a team, so it has to be collaborative. We have to do it together. All our creative work, whether it's our conference, Chain React, or our work, it's all collaborative, and we love being creative. \n\nAnd the last thing is being pioneers, pioneering spirit. We like to be pioneers in technology. We put out a lot of open source. And we try to bring that pioneering spirit everywhere we go. And then, there's a lot of different things that kind of come out of that. For example, we have this internal saying, which is, \"Don't do hard things alone.\" \n\nSo, you have a hard thing coming up? And it could be hard in various ways. It could be a technically challenging thing. It could just be hard because of the mood you're in that day. But don't do it alone. Ask someone to help you, you know, jump in with you, pair with you. Do it together. And we love that. That's part of the high personal support and the bonitas. So, all these things come out of the foundation and pillars that we have.\n\nWILL: Wow, I love all those. I want to pick one of them out and ask you a question around it. So, you're talking about having an impact. I'm loving this conversation just talking to you. It's just been amazing. So, for you, what do you want the impact on the world to be from your perspective?\n\nJAMON: That's a hard question to answer, and it tends to be something that I think about a lot. I'm more of an opportunistic person. I react more than I plan ahead, that sort of thing. But with that said, I think that we have had significant positive impact through a lot of different ways. So, on Twitter, for example, I try to present a...and this is authentically who I am. But I try to present a positive force out there, someone who's excited and enthusiastic about the technology, who supports other people, even who you might consider competitors, for example. \n\nI just retweeted recently a Callstack thing. I mean, you might consider them a competitor. They're another React Native agency. But I love Callstack. They're great people. And I retweeted one of their really amazing resources, which is the ultimate guide to React Native performance, which, by the way, is really good. And if you do React Native, you should check it out. \n\nSo, I think what goes around comes around, and I really want to have that positive impact out there. I want to give talks that inspire people. You know, I'm a nerd, and I'm going to nerd out about stuff. And I feel like that has an impact all of its own. So, that's kind of my personal side of it. And then Infinite Red is a showcase that you can run a company the right way. You can treat people the right way. And the company can be successful along our own metrics of success.\n\nWILL: So, one of my biggest principles that I've learned in life that's changed my leadership 100,000% is from this book called One Minute Manager. And I think it's called one-minute praise. And, essentially, the background behind it is, if you think something, just tell the person because so many times...and I get in my head, and I think amazing things about people, but I never say it. \n\nJAMON: [laughs]\n\nWILL: So, I want to just tell you, like, you said, the impact that you're making. You are doing that. Like, one of the reasons why I invited you on the show was because of your impact that I see that you're having on Twitter and LinkedIn and just everything that you're doing at Infinite Red. So, keep going. I want you to know that you are making a difference. I see you, and it's making a big difference in my life.\n\nJAMON: I love that, and it makes me feel great. And I appreciate you sharing that one-minute praise there. It is something that sometimes you put it out there, and you don't really know what the impact is, you know, it's sort of hidden in maybe the likes, or the replies, or whatever. \n\nAs an example, I just reached out to my friend Aaron Francis last night, and I told him, \"Hey, I love your videos.\" I don't even do the tech that he does. But I watch his videos on YouTube because I just love the vibe that he has. And I told him that. I was like, \"You're doing a great job. You're being a very good advocate for your company.\" And I agree with you; I think that just taking the moment to reach out and say, \"Hey, I think you're doing good work,\" it encourages people to do more of it. So, I appreciate it a lot, Will. That's really nice of you to say. \n\nWILL: Yeah, definitely. If you can go back, what is some advice that you would give yourself? We could do both at the beginning when you did ClearSight and whenever you merged and did Infinite Red. Was there any advice that you're like, wow, I learned these lessons, and they were game changers for me?\n\nJAMON: [laughs] Boy, this could be a whole nother podcast, to be honest. There are so many different things that I've kind of learned over the years. I feel like, you know, there's value in, you know, there was actually...I forget exactly where I heard this, but it was about Cloudflare, the company. \n\nAnd a long time ago, as they were sort of launching, one of the people that worked on the...I think it was their founder, actually. One of their investors told him, \"Hey, running a company is sort of like flying an airplane. You want to make sure that it's well-maintained at all times. And then, when you're flying, you keep the wheel steady and the nose 10 degrees above the horizon so you continue to rise. And you don't need to shoot for the moon. We're not a rocket here. Just continue to execute well, make sure that it's well maintained, make sure that you're continually rising.\" \n\nAnd Cloudflare is a good example of this, and I think that Infinite Red is as well. Every year, we try to do something where we're continuing to keep that nose 10% above the horizon. That doesn't always mean growing. Like, we don't hire all that often. We don't grow in terms of headcount, but we grow in other ways. And you can see that looking back over the years. Every year, there was something that we continued to, you know, improve, keeping that nose 10 degrees above the horizon. And so, that's a big one. And you can just go do all the little things really well and continue to think long term and where are you headed. And if you do the right things long enough, good things happen.\n\nWILL: I love that because, especially when I'm working out, I try to shoot for the moon. \n\nJAMON: [laughs]\n\nWILL: I go all out. So, that was some amazing advice. I don't even remember who told me, but when I first started programming, I tried to shoot for the moon. And, oh, I crashed and burned so many times [laughs] because it's just something you can't just master it, and just like, I got it, da da da. And I love that advice. That's amazing advice. So, that's perfect.\n\nJAMON: Yeah, it really stuck with me, and I have so many more lessons. I have actually kept a notebook of profound things that I've heard over the years, and I actually really enjoy that minute praising you said. And I'm going to look up the quote after this, and I'm going to put it in my notebook.\n\n[laughter]\n\nWILL: Yeah, yeah. It's been a game-changer because I'm a very straightforward person. And so, a lot of times, like, I don't mind addressing an issue just head-on. But what I found is I'm just always doing that. And I never had equity in the bank at times. This is when I was a very young leader. I didn't have equity. And so, it was just hard to tell people, \"Hey, can we tweak this? Can we do that?\" \n\nAnd then I had to sit back and say, okay, what can I change to be a better leader? And it's like, I can connect better. And I see so many things. Like, I'm very observant, I think. To be honest, it's helped me in every area, even with my spouse, with my kids, with friends. It's just saying, \"Hey, I see what you did. I see that you made breakfast.\" Or \"My kids, I see that you made this beautiful mud pie for me. And it's amazing. So, thank you. Thank you.\" And so, yeah, it's been a game changer for me.\n\nJAMON: Yeah, one of my friends, his goal was...and he's a leader. And he said that his goal with everyone on one was to give them one thing to change and highlight one thing they did well like you said, equity in the bank. He was talking about when he was a leader of, like, a call bank. And he said, \"No matter how bad the call was, I wouldn't give them more than two things to improve because there was no way that they could take ten critiques and improve. They would just be defeated.\" And then, he would review and see if they could improve one more thing, avoided negative language, things like that. So, that's a really interesting concept.\n\nWILL: Yeah, definitely, definitely. So, I have one other question for you. What motivates you? What's your wind in your sails? What keeps you going? Because I know running a consultant agency is not easy. What keeps you going?\n\nJAMON: For me, motivation tends to be enthusiasm for learning, really more than anything, like going into something new and, like, exploring. I see it more as exploring even than learning. With a consultancy, there's always so many different...it's never the same, you know, there's always some other challenge. And that's one of the reasons I've loved being, you know, a consultancy owner for so many years. You're never dealing with just the same stuff over and over. So, I would say it's really about the exploration that happens, and just loving code, and talking shop, and being around great people. To me, that continues to motivate me.\n\nWILL: I love that. Do you have anything that you would like to promote — personally, Infinite Red, anything?\n\nJAMON: Well, Infinite Red, of course. If you're looking for React Native, we are all senior-level React Native developers. We've been working together for a long time. So, big companies, the biggest ones you can think of, many of them have hired us to, you know, be the experts with their team. We usually put 2 or 3 people on a project, and then the client will come in with 2 to 10 people or whatever they have on their side. And we work with them side by side, teaching them as well as delivering code. So, that's really our bread and butter. \n\nWe also put on the biggest and, I think, only U.S.-based React Native conference, and it's called Chain React. It's in Portland. Next year, it's going to be in July. So, go check it out: chainreactconf.com. We'd love to see you all there. I'd love to see you there, Will. And network with all these different React Native developers. There's people from Meta, and Microsoft, Amazon, all over the world, really. And they're some of the best React Native programmers you're going to ever meet, and some great talks, and great food, and a great city.\n\nWILL: Yeah, I would love to be there. Let me ask you this: how is Portland in July?\n\nJAMON: Portland is amazing in July. Sometimes, it can get hot, but for the most part, it's just beautiful. It'll be like 85 degrees, not really any humidity, nice, little breeze. It's just a beautiful weather pattern around Julyish. That's why we chose that time of year. So, definitely, if you're going to be coming to Oregon, Portland, you know, West Coast, July is a great time to come. It's not going to be super, super hot, usually. Sometimes, I mean, we get over 100 sometimes, but no worries, you know, there's AC as well. But for the most part, it's beautiful.\n\nWILL: You sold me already. \n\nJAMON: [laughs]\n\nWILL: So, I live in South Florida, so...[laughs]\n\nJAMON: Yeah, it's going to be different in South Florida in July.\n\n[laughter]\n\nWILL: Awesome. Well, this has been an amazing chat, and just great getting to know you and learning more about Infinite Red. Thank you for being a part of the podcast.\n\nJAMON: Yeah. Thanks for inviting me, Will. It was a lot of fun, and you're a great host. I appreciate it. \n\nWILL: I appreciate it.\n\nJAMON: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry.\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.\n\nDid you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.\n\nMore info on our website at tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.Special Guest: Jamon Holmgren.Sponsored By:thoughtbot: Now that you have funding, it’s time to design, build and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future. \r\n\r\nthoughtbot Lift Off brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success. As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we’ll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today’s new technologies and agile best practices.\r\n\r\nMake the right decisions for tomorrow, today. Get in touch at: thoughtbot.com/liftoff","content_html":"Jamon Holmgren is the founder of Infinite Red, a consultancy specializing in React Native. He discusses his journey and insights into technology and leadership and highlights how Infinite Red stands as a testament that businesses can be run ethically while still achieving success.
\n\nThe conversation shifts to leadership styles and the principle of "one-minute praise" from the book "One Minute Manager." Both Jamon and Will agree that acknowledging others' efforts openly can make a significant difference, enhancing leadership skills and building stronger relationships. Will points out how this simple principle has been a game-changer for him in various aspects of life, including his personal relationships.
\n\nTowards the end, the focus turns to motivation and long-term strategy. Jamon is driven by his enthusiasm for learning and the thrill of tackling diverse challenges in his consultancy work. He also shares his philosophy of keeping the company "10 degrees above the horizon," emphasizing steady, sustainable growth rather than erratic leaps and bounds.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. And with me today is Jamon Holmgren, Co-Founder and CTO of Infinite Red, a software consulting agency that specializes in React Native. Jamon, thank you for joining me.
\n\nJAMON: Yeah. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.
\n\nWILL: So, Jamon, what's going on in your life? How's everything going?
\n\nJAMON: You know, things have been obviously very busy, like, I guess, pretty much everybody. You know, school has started. I have four kids, so that keeps me quite busy, going to various school events, going to volleyball, you know, bringing kids here and there, running the company. I have some side projects I'm doing. I am playing hockey. So, it just seems like every waking hour is filled with something.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nWILL: I totally understand that. I have three kids of my own. So, they're a little bit younger than yours, so mine is 4, 3, and, like, 17 months, so...
\n\nJAMON: Okay. Yeah, so you're just getting started. And you're doing all of the, like, physical labor associated with being a parent.
\n\nWILL: Yes, yes, yes. So, I want to start there. Tell me a little bit about your kids. I know their ages are 10 to 18.
\n\nJAMON: Yeah, so I have a boy, Cedric. He's actually a programmer as well. He's just starting his career. He is the oldest, and then we have three girls. We have a 15-year-old who's a sophomore in high school. And then we have a 12-year-old who's in middle school and a 10-year-old who is in fifth grade in elementary school. And it's a lot.
\n\nMy wife and I both came from very large families, so we're kind of used to it. And it's a lot of fun. A lot of challenges at this age, I mean, teenagers especially, you know, as they kind of all come into that same era, you know, it's more of a challenge. I guess the thing that I think about it is a lot of the skills that I learned as a young kid parent don't really translate super well to being a teenager parent. And I'm having to learn a lot of new skills. And I actually talked to a guy the other day. His kids are, I think, 32 and 28, or something like that. And he said, "Yeah, the learning never stops." [laughs]
\n\nWILL: So, I'm going to ask you for the secret sauce because I'm still in the temper tantrums and those type of emotions and stuff. So, how is it different in the teenage years from the temper tantrums?
\n\nJAMON: Well, I think that they can act like adults in a lot of cases, and you start thinking of them as adults, and you start developing a relationship there. But their brains are also not fully developed. And so, they will also do things that are very inexplicable, like, you'll just be like, why? Why would this be a thing? Like, I don't get it. Like, you act like an adult for half the time, and then the other half, you act like a kid. Navigating that, and the fact that they change all the time, and all the other challenges.
\n\nAnd they're all different. Like, if we had only had one kid, you know, my boy was pretty easy. He was pretty straightforward. It would have been like, well, shoot, being a parent is pretty easy. Like, I don't know what everybody else is complaining about. Like, he never did tantrums. He was just a really quiet, you know, like, well-behaved kid and kind of went through life like that. But then, obviously, developing a relationship with him is more of the challenge because he's quieter, where with my girls, it's easier to develop the relationship, but then you [laughs] deal with a lot more volatility as well. So, they're all different. Every kid's different. It's hard to really apply that directly.
\n\nI would say that the thing that I've learned the most in the last few years is just kind of continuing to be, like, even through some of the tougher times, continuing to be there, continuing to develop that relationship. A lot of times, it feels like you're not getting anywhere, but you are. It is actually happening. You just don't see it until later.
\n\nWILL: I'm writing that down. That's great advice [laughter]. You mentioned hockey. Tell me about it. I've never played hockey. I grew up in the South, so we didn't have that. So, tell me about it. And you're a goalie also, correct?
\n\nJAMON: Yeah, I play goalie. I didn't discover hockey...I played basketball in high school. I played four years of high school basketball. I even played a little bit at college. And I didn't really discover hockey until I moved to Southwest Washington, about an hour away from where I grew up in the coast of Oregon. When I got there, a lot of my friends that I made were playing hockey. And one friend, in particular, he was a goalie, and he had grown up in Upper Michigan. So, you know, like, he grew up playing hockey. He was a very good skater and things like that.
\n\nBut there was one weekend I was coming to watch him play just rec hockey. And he's like, "You know what? I can't make it. Would you want to jump in and, like, be my sub?" And it was just a pick-up game. So, it wasn't like there was anything on the line. And I was like, "All right, I'll give it a try." You know, put on the gear. He showed me what to do to put on the gear. He kind of gave me some tips. Like, in the living room where we were, he was, like, showing me how to play.
\n\nWe were, like, I would say, 19, I think. Nineteen years old, something like that. Anyway, I show up, and I put on the gear, and I go out there. And I actually had a decent game, considering I barely knew how to skate and barely knew how to do anything. But I'm kind of big; I'm six foot four, almost six foot five. And having all that gear and everything, I filled up a lot of the net. And it wasn't a very high-level game, so I did pretty well.
\n\nAnd after that, the team was like, "Well, we'd love to have you back." And then my friend really was not interested in continuing, so he was like, "You can have it, like, just roll with it." I kept playing for about three years, and then, I don't know, I took over a decade off. The team dissolved. It wasn't even a league team. It was just, you know, pick-up hockey.
\n\nAnd then a friend called me and was like, "Hey, I'm starting up a game. It's going to be Finnish Americans," because I'm half-Finnish myself. "So, it's going to be all Finnish Americans. We're going to call it the [Foreign language]," which is the Finnish boys in sort of Finnish. It's not exactly supposed to be like that in Finnish. Anybody listening who's Finnish is going to be like, "Yeah, that's bad Finnish." But it kind of means Finnish boys or Finland boys.
\n\nAnd we put together the team, and I've been playing for the last three-plus years. It's been kind of, like, a rec league team. We've won the championship four times, which was really fun. This year, I'm actually playing in two leagues. I'm playing in rec league, and I'm also playing the next league up, so a little bit faster, better skaters, better shooters, things like that. And I just love it. It's so much fun.
\n\nWILL: Wow, that's amazing that you started later and that you're still playing it. Because when I look at hockey, I'm like, that's really hard. I don't know if I could do that. I can skate. I can't stop.
\n\nJAMON: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: Like, I can get a lot of speed [laughs]. But it's just something about turning sideways and thinking I'm going to fly over the skates.
\n\nJAMON: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: And yeah, it's a whole thing [laughs]. Is goalie harder than playing any of the other positions?
\n\nJAMON: I would say it's different. Like, I don't have to be as good of a skater, you know, things like hockey stops are still not supernatural for me. I don't skate backwards super-fast. You know, I'm not a fast skater in general. But the difference is, of course, you have to be reading the flow of the game. You have to know the body language of the players that are coming at you. You have to kind of see what's happening. At the end of the day, lots of things can happen, so you try to put yourself in the best position.
\n\nIt's a lot of, like, positional, like, where are you in the net? What does your position look like? And then, once they shoot, how do you react? Are you dropping down, or are you staying up? Are you using your glove? Are you using your blocker? Are you just trying to block with your body using your stick? Then, once the puck hits you, then what do you do? How do you control the rebound? Are you trying to cover it up and ice the puck so they do a face-off? Are you trying to kick it out to one of your skaters?
\n\nAnd then, once that happens, you have a little bit of a rest, hopefully, while they're down on the other side. But you're continually alert and watching to see what's going to develop because it could be a breakaway. And then it's just you and the skater and trying to anticipate what they're doing and try to make it so that they have to make a play. Like, just be big, be in position. Don't get out of position. Don't make a mistake.
\n\nAnd I've had really great games where I've, you know, had 45 shots on me, and I've only let one in or something like that. And I've had some bad games too. I know there's one game in a championship where they only had six shots on me. But we ended up losing because I let in two, so that was not a fun game. I only had six opportunities, and I failed on two of them. But that happens, and so you just have to be mentally tough.
\n\nWILL: Wow, that's amazing. The limited knowledge of hockey...I'm going to assume here, so I hope it's right. With you being 6'4, 6'5, I'm guessing that the five-hole, if I'm correct, was probably your toughest position to defend.
\n\nJAMON: You know, you would think so. And just for the audience, the five-hole is, like, between your legs, you know, the puck going between your legs underneath. But I play a style...a little bit older style of goalie because that's what I watched. You know, in, like, the early 2000s, I watched Patrick Roy of the Colorado Avalanche, one of the greatest goalies of all time, and he played what's called a butterfly style.
\n\nSo, as the play develops, you're standing, but then you go down fairly early, and you're protecting the bottom. You have your stick in front of you protecting the five-hole, and you have your legs, you know, spread out. So, I used my height really more for blocking as I'm down rather than standing because when I'm standing, I'm above the net. It's better for me to get down. And I think that that's worked out pretty well.
\n\nYou know, Patrick Roy was a pretty big goalie as well. Most modern goalies play a more hybrid style. But, you know, we could get into all that. I'm a big kind of hockey nerd in this way. But that's what I do. I play butterfly, so most of the time, people don't beat me five-hole; when they do, it's usually they're picking a corner.
\n\nWILL: Wow. Now that you've painted the picture, I can see how that's smart because you do have the goal, I mean, the gloves plus the stick and then your height. Yeah, I can see how...that's smart. That's very smart [laughs].
\n\nJAMON: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's kind of the goal. And also, because I wasn't a great skater, it sort of played into it as well, playing down on the ice where I was just more comfortable that way. It's worked out. I've had a pretty decent record over my career here [laughs].
\n\nWILL: That's awesome. Well, let's transition a little bit into consultant agencies. You've been doing it for 18 years. Tell me about that. How did you get started?
\n\nJAMON: Well, when I started, I was working in construction. I was working for a home builder. And, you know, everybody I knew pretty much worked in construction, including my dad, who owned a business. And I went on my own. I had always dreamed of owning my own business, but I didn't start really thinking about websites. I was coding. I loved coding, and I was coding since I was 12.
\n\nSo, when I got to 23 years old, I thought, I'll start a business, and I'll do home design because that's what I was doing for the builder was, I was drawing homes. I was designing homes and remodels and things like that. And so, I started it doing that. But I also needed a little bit extra work. I didn't have enough work. Like, I had people, you know, sending me work, you know, home design and whatnot, but I didn't have quite enough. So, I would also build websites on the side, PHP and HTML, MySQL, and JavaScript. And I just sort of continued to do that.
\n\nBut in 2008, there was the housing crisis, and all of the design work for homes just dried up. There wasn't much there. In fact, it actually really dried up in 2007 because things kind of started a little early for designers. And so, I was like; I got to do something to stay busy. I've got a wife. I've got a young kid (Actually, at that point, I had two kids.), and I need to make sure that I'm staying busy. And so, I really ramped up trying to find work, you know, as a programmer, as a web developer.
\n\nAnd there were plenty of companies at that time that were really trying to drum up business. So, they were putting money into their websites trying to get new projects, and they were all construction companies. And so, that's how I started. And I started doing more things like internal web apps for managing orders and managing sales leads, and that sort of thing. And that led me into web apps and eventually to Ruby on Rails, which became sort of my bread and butter for a while.
\n\nAs I was doing Ruby on Rails, you know, obviously, the iPhone was out, but the iPad came out. And I was more of an Android guy at that point. But I bought an iPad because it looked really cool, and my dad had one. When I started playing around with it, I'm like, I need to build apps for this. This is super cool. So, I took some Stanford courses online, which you could do back in those days, iTunes U, and learned how to use Objective-C.
\n\nThis was previous to Automatic Reference Counting and stuff. So, you had to manage your own memory, and this was a lot of manual work; very different environment than JavaScript, and PHP, and Ruby. But I actually enjoyed it quite a bit and then eventually transitioned into React Native later. But really, getting over to mobile and that sort of thing was...once I found mobile, I really didn't want to do web anymore. Mobile is what I really enjoy doing.
\n\nWILL: Wow, I love that. If I'm following you correctly, you said in 2007, that's kind of when everything dried up. So, you were almost forced to find something different, correct?
\n\nJAMON: Yeah, that's right. I mean, I kind of sat around feeling sorry for myself for a while. And then I was like, well, it's my business. I got to figure out what to do. It's not anybody else's fault. Like, you know, it doesn't matter that this is forces out of my control. I do have control. I have the ability to go in there and figure out, okay, what do I do next? Well, I know how to program, and it seems like people want me to program. So, let's lean into that.
\n\nWILL: Wow. I love that. Because it's funny, that's how I got started in programming. I lost my job. And I was working at Buckle, the clothing store. If you know me, that is not me at all, like, at all [laughter]. I love gym shorts and athletic clothes. Like, fashion is not my thing. It's just not. So [laughs], I got into programming because I was just struggling. And it was a very pivotal moment in my life. And I'm thankful that I lost my job. Losing your job is just hard, and I think it makes you rethink things.
\n\nJAMON: Yeah, absolutely. It was a growth moment for me as well, one of many. But that was definitely a point that I look back on and say, I mean because I can actually point at almost the day when it all dried up. It was, like, April 2007. And my uncle had been sending me a lot of work, you know, he had extra work. He didn't have barely enough for himself anymore at that point. And I finished up my last project, and he's like, "I don't have anything else." And I had some other clients as well and called them up, and they were like, "No, we don't have anything. Like, nobody is buying right now." And it just kept going like that.
\n\nAnd it was weird because 2005, 2006, most of 2007, it felt like things were really rolling, but it just dried up all at once. And so, I was really lucky that I did end up getting a bunch of web work to do in 2008. I was still doing home design till probably late 2008, 2009. But then I eventually just hung that up and was like, okay, this is over. I'm definitely focusing on programming.
\n\nWILL: Wow, how was the initial traction when you moved into ramping up the web development?
\n\nJAMON: It was really good because it didn't take much to keep me busy. And I ended up getting some big contracts from, like, a cabinet manufacturer was a big one. I did some other things as well. And I ended up hiring my first employees in 2009. So, really, less than two years later, I was starting to hire employees. And I just hired, like, junior developers who had barely learned to code and taught them to code. So, I hired probably, over the years, next few years, like, ten programmers, many of whom are actually still with me today, and I taught them to code back in the day.
\n\nAnd as time went on, they became senior and really high-level programmers who are now leading projects for big companies that you've heard of. But they started with me building, you know, PHP and MySQL and whatnot for small, like, regional construction companies. And we learned together. So, it was definitely a progression you can go look back and see.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I saw a tweet that you tweeted, and I loved it because I totally understand.
\n\nJAMON: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: And so, I'm glad you mentioned the junior devs and stuff. The tweet that I'm talking about was, "I got into this industry to code; ended up becoming a founder because I was the only person who would hire me."
\n\nJAMON: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: I want to ask you about that.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nJAMON: Yeah, it's really that I grew up in a small logging town, like, very tiny logging town in Northwest Oregon. I didn't know...I knew one programmer, and the guy was, like, an incredible genius. And I just thought that that was the only way that you could professionally be a programmer was to be an incredible genius. I was coding, but I was, like, coding games, you know, in QBasic. And so, for me, every time I looked around, it was just, like, construction, or logging or, you know, blue collar, like, working at a mill. Like, these were the things that I saw around me. And so, that was the path I went.
\n\nAnd I didn't really think of using this passion that I had for coding to turn it into, like, actual money. And when I did start thinking about it, I was like, I don't know anybody who does software. Like, even when I moved to Southwest Washington, I was closer to Portland. But I thought you had to have a CS degree, and I didn't have a CS degree. So, I was like, okay, well, I'll start my own business then, and that will be the thing that kind of leads me into tech. And that's what ended up happening.
\n\nAnd it's kind of funny because I did go to, you know, one semester of community college for basketball and for...until I got cut. And then I studied some things there. But I never finished for the community college. What's kind of cool, though, is today, I'm actually on their, like, tech advisory committee. Like, they actually have me advising their professors on the current state of tech, which is kind of cool.
\n\nWILL: Wow, that is really cool. It is interesting because I remember when I first started out and that feeling of probably over 300 applications just trying to get a job. And it was just hard. And my first job, to be honest, I think it was because of networking is why I got the job. If I didn't know the person that introduced me to the company, I probably wouldn't have gotten the job, if I'm being honest.
\n\nBut I am very sympathetic for junior devs anytime. If a junior dev asks me a question, I will take time, help them out. Because I remember...it's very hard as a junior dev trying to get that first job. So, when you said that, I was like, yeah, I can see your heart towards junior devs.
\n\nJAMON: Absolutely. That's where I started. You know, the first developers that I hired were all juniors. We don't hire juniors anymore because of the style of business that we are. But I miss that. I miss that to some degree. We really can't. And we've looked at it from just about every angle. But I did my time [laughs]. I spent a lot of hours teaching junior developers when I could have done it quicker myself.
\n\nWILL: Definitely. Like, you end up losing some money when you do a junior dev and you're hiring for the future. So, like, in a consultant agency, I totally understand that, yeah.
\n\nJAMON: Yeah, absolutely.
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\n\nWILL: So, I want to ask you about the transition from ClearSight Studio to Infinite Red. How did that happen?
\n\nJAMON: ClearSight was my first company. And it sort of evolved from being a, you know, a home design/website company to just a website and web app company, and then mobile apps. And, at a certain time, we had, I think, around 12 employees, something like that. I had a design department. We were building websites and whatnot. And I was really interested in iOS development. That was really my passion.
\n\nAnd so I actually ended up working on some open source with iOS developers across the globe and then got invited to a conference down in San Francisco in 2014. And I went and gave a talk there. It was my first tech conference that I'd ever been to, much less given a talk, and I was the first talk [laughs]. So, that was kind of an interesting little anecdote there.
\n\nAnd as I did it, I got to know some other developers. I had one in particular, Todd Werth, who I really hit it off with, and we ended up chatting a lot after the conference. And it felt like he and I had a very similar outlook. And he had an iOS agency. That's all they did.
\n\nWell, 2015 rolls around, and I had had some rough times toward the end of 2014 in terms of the business, and I was kind of complaining to Todd. He had had some issues as well, and we started commiserating. And he's like, you know, he just started joking. I still have this conversation in Slack way back if I go look. And he's like, "Well, maybe we should just merge our businesses together," because it felt like we had maybe complementary skills. And we had a similar outlook on what we wanted from our businesses. And so, we ended up eventually solidifying that. I flew down there, talked to him and his business partner, Ken, at the time. We ended up making that happen later that year.
\n\nSo, just a few days ago, October 1st was our eighth anniversary running the companies, running the new company, the merged company, which is Infinite Red. So, that was kind of how that all came together. Eventually, Ken left, and we had a new business partner who was our top employee buy-in; that's Gant Laborde. And so, there are still three owners. We have three directors and then the rest of the team. We're about 30 people altogether, and we focus entirely on React Native.
\n\nWILL: Wow, congratulations on eight years. That's a lot. That's amazing.
\n\nJAMON: Yeah, thank you. I was just thinking the other day that I ran ClearSight for ten years. Infinite Red is getting close to how long I ran my first business. And, like, my youngest is, like I said, 10. So she was only two years old when I merged the company. She does not remember my old company, which is weird to me.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nWILL: Wow. So, can you walk me through your decision to go here with React Native and specialize in that? Because it sounds like right around the time when React Native was created, and people started using it in production.
\n\nJAMON: That's right. The iOS technology that we had sort of bonded over at that conference was called RubyMotion. But in 2015, the founder ended up going to work for Microsoft for a while and then went back to Apple. He had been from Apple before. So, it was sort of going down. And we were looking for a different technology, both of our companies were, and then, of course, the merged company.
\n\nReact Native looked interesting, but it didn't have an Android version yet. But then, in September of 2015, Android came out, so it was iOS and Android. So, we were able to take a look at that one month before we ended up solidifying the actual merger. So, basically, day one, October 1st, 2015, we were, like, we are now doing React Native for mobile, but we kept doing web. We kept doing Ruby on Rails. We did some Elixir. We did some Elm. We did some...I think we had some old Ember stuff going on. We had all kinds of things going on.
\n\nBut over time, we got more and more traction with React Native because that's really where our interest was. And so, we ended up saying, okay, well, this is where we really want to be. It took us a few years. It took us probably five years, six years, something like that, to really develop the confidence to say, "Hey, this is all we want to do," because it's a risk. Like, you put yourself on one technology. We had that before with the other technology that went down. But we had the confidence that we knew we could step off of a sinking ship onto another one if we needed to. So, we said, "You know what? Let's do this."
\n\nAnd I got to give my co-founder, Todd, a lot of credit because he was the first one to say, "Let's go all React Native. Anywhere that React Native is, React Native is on a lot of different platforms. You can do tvOS. You can do Mac. You can do Windows. You can do web with React Native web, all kinds of things. So, let's just focus on React Native. Our team will just focus on that. We will only hire React Native developers. All of our marketing is going to be around React Native. Let's just focus on that."
\n\nAnd it ended up being a great call. We did that. We made that happen. And for probably the last, I would say, three, four years, something like that, that's all we've been doing.
\n\nWILL: So, what's your opinion on, I guess, the argument that's being held right now with native iOS and Android, even the Flutter, and I think Ionic is the other one that I've heard of, versus React Native? What's your pitch on React Native over those?
\n\nJAMON: There's definitely reasons to use any of those. But I wrote this article a while back. It was specifically about Flutter, but I think it applies to a lot of the other competitors as well. The title of the article was provocatively titled, "Flutter Is Better Than React Native in All the Ways That Don't Matter." And the idea behind this is that, yes, Flutter gets a lot of things very right. A lot of their developer experience is actually better than React Native; some is worse, but, you know, some is better.
\n\nBut really, when it comes down to it, the things that matter are more business level. React Native is good enough. It's like native views. So, you have the native performance. With Hermes, you have really good performance in JavaScript. So, you know that you can get really high-level JavaScript performance. You can ship JavaScript, which really helps because then you can bring in JavaScript developers, and specifically React developers.
\n\nSo, a lot of companies already use React. It's a no-brainer to then use React Native if you're already using React Web. It doesn't really make sense to go to Flutter. It makes maybe some sense to write it in native, but then you have to write it twice. And you have three teams. You have a web team. You have an iOS team, and you have an Android team. And you also have three codebases, and one's always lagging behind. That's always what's happening.
\n\nMarketing is like, "Okay, when can we announce this?" "Well, iOS isn't done," or "Android is not done," or "Web is not done." Where if you can combine all of those things and combine just the culture of your team, then it becomes more tight-knit because everybody's working on all aspects at one time. You can take a feature, and you can build it in web, and you can build it in iOS, and you can build it Android with all the same skills.
\n\nNow, there are some deeper parts of React Native. It goes really deep. But in terms of just being productive out of the gate, a React developer can be productive in week one, and that's, I think, a huge deal. So, it really comes down to is the performance and developer experience good enough? And the answer is absolutely yes.
\n\nAnd then, secondly, like, what's the business case for React Native? Well, you can have the same developers doing iOS, Android, and web, and even if you don't, you can share techniques. You can be like, "Hey, here's this cool JavaScript thing," and the Kotlin developers aren't just like, "Ugh, you know, JavaScript." Or you can be like, "Hey, here's our TypeScript configuration across the whole codebase." You can even have a monorepo with everything in it. It just makes a lot of sense that way. And especially now with Expo, it makes it even more that way because Expo removes a lot of the barriers for web developers that they would have coming into native.
\n\nSo, with that in mind, I still see React Native dominating the apps that are at the top of the App Store. One of the Expo developers, Evan Bacon, has put out a bunch of tweets about, you know, like, 24 out of the top 100 food and drink apps are written in React Native, as opposed to 8 in all the other options combined other than native, you know. So, it gives a good sense that React Native is still growing and continuing to. It has a lot of steam behind it.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I totally agree with you. I'm a big React Native fan, and I do a lot of React Native work here. So, yes, totally agree with you. And one of the most frustrating things that I've come across is, I'm a big researcher, and so I'll research things, and I'm like, oh, there's an app for this. And I'm a big Android fan, so when I go to them, it's like, oh yes, I can use this app. And then it's like, no, I can't. It's only for iOS. Okay, like, you lost me as a customer.
\n\nJAMON: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: I was willing to pay whatever on this because I've been looking for it. So yeah, I like how you said that.
\n\nJAMON: Yeah. It treats all of the platforms as first-class citizens.
\n\nWILL: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Totally agree. How does your company handle the backend? Do y'all do any of the backend, or how is that handled at Infinite Red?
\n\nJAMON: We used to do that, like I mentioned. But a few years ago...we had a very, very small back-end team by then. Most of the time, and now pretty much 100% of the time, when someone comes to us, they already have a back-end team, so we work directly with them. A lot of our developers were back-end developers, and so they understand the backend really well, but they're obviously React Native specialists now.
\n\nSo, you know, I came from that. I did PHP. I did Ruby, Ruby on Rails, Elixir, Node, all kinds of back-end technology. So, I understand it really well as well. But yeah, we lean on our clients for that. We might partner with an agency like you folks over there at thoughtbot and have them do the backend, or just have the client, you know, come up with their own solution.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I love that, yeah. And we've done that with numerous agencies, so yeah, that's awesome. What does success look like for Infinite Red now versus, you know, six months or five years from now? Do y'all have any goals in mind that you're trying to hit?
\n\nJAMON: In the Infinite Red leadership, we are currently reading John Maxwell's 21 indisputable Laws of Leadership, which is a good book. And we had this really great conversation at our first book club meeting in leadership, which John Maxwell defines success in a very different way than we do. You know, he measured it as, like, McDonald's, or Starbucks, or something like that, like, giant, becoming huge, becoming big, making tons of money. And it was sort of just implicit in the book that that was the case.
\n\nWe had this great talk internally. Why didn't this resonate with us? And that's because we don't really measure success that way. So, I love that question, Will, because measuring success is you really have to start there. Like, you have to start there and say, "What do we want from this?" So, ultimately, we want to build cool things with our friends. I'm a coding nerd. I want to code. I want to be in the code. That's why we're an agency. Like, if we were a product company, if we were building, I don't know, podcasting software or something, we'd have to become experts in podcasting rather than experts in React Native, or experts in TypeScript, or whatever we want to do.
\n\nSo, we really love code. We want to build that. We want to have an amazing family-first environment. We want to treat everybody super well. We want to have really low turnover, which we've been able to achieve. Hardly anybody leaves Infinite Red. Maybe every other year, we might lose one person. And even with those people, they tend to come back [laughs], which is a great sign. They go out and find out that, yeah, actually, Infinite Red is pretty awesome, and they come back. So, we really look for that. We really focus on that. We want that to happen.
\n\nAnd it's really less about making the most money we can. Obviously, everybody wants to be well paid. And so, we're going to try to make sure we have a successful business in that way and that we want to be around for a long time. But, really, measuring success is less about business success and it's more about life success. It's really more about family success, being with my four kids, being there for them when they need me to be. That's why we're remote, you know, as another example. So, everything really hinges off of that. It's around happiness. It's around fulfillment. It's not around financial success.
\n\nWILL: I'm a huge John Maxwell fan, by the way.
\n\nJAMON: [laughs] There you go.
\n\nWILL: So, yes, I love it. And I love how you explained, you know, because one of my questions I was going to ask you is about the core values, but I'm going to switch it up a little bit. So, I'm just going to say, in my opinion, I feel like there's almost leadership talk void at times, especially in the tech space. Like, we don't talk about leadership a lot. But it plays a huge part in what we do day to day. Like, you named a couple of core values and principles that you're following because of the leadership. So, for you, why is the leadership so important and I guess you can say have a seat at the table at Infinite Red?
\n\nJAMON: I'm a strong believer, and I've become more of a strong believer over time, that it all starts at the top. If you don't have buy-in from your top leadership, it does not really matter what happens otherwise because they will continually undermine, and they have the power to continually undermine that. So, these core values have to apply to the top leaders. They have to be held accountable to that. And these leaders also need to be developed.
\n\nSo, we have three owners. We have three directors. And the three directors who are underneath us were not directors when we hired them; you know, they started out as developers. They started out as designers. They started out as project managers. But they became Director of Operations, Director of Engineering, Director of Communications. And we developed them. We poured a lot of time into them, and we continue to do that. In fact, even reading this book with them and going through that exercise is continuing to invest in them. Not that we as owners don't have growth to do; we also do. And so, we learn from them, and we learn from our team. So, you have to start there.
\n\nAnd on that same vein, we do have some core values. We call them our foundation and our pillars. We have three foundational things, and we have four pillars. So, the three foundations are: one, we control our own destiny. We are not going to be beholden to some other company. We're not going to ride someone else's coattails. We're not going to be in a situation where someone else can kill us. And it can be easily done that way where we're in a position where, you know, we're too reliant on one whale client or something like that. We just won't do it.
\n\nThe second foundational thing is that we have...it's a word bonitas, which means kindness, friendliness, benevolence, blamelessness. And it's basically just being a good person to everybody and doing the right thing.
\n\nAnd the third one is having a significant positive impact. That's why we do so much media. That's why we try to have an impact outside. And we're only 30 people, but people think we're way bigger because of how we kind of present ourselves in the world. And then our pillars all support those things, so high personal support. We support each other. We have high expectations, but we also support each other not just at work but also as a whole person.
\n\nLong-term viewpoint, we think way beyond this year. We think about what is Infinite Red going to be when I retire? You know, I'm 41; that's a ways out, hopefully. But what's that going to look like?
\n\nThe next one is collaborative creativity. Creativity by yourself is just a solo thing. We're a team, so it has to be collaborative. We have to do it together. All our creative work, whether it's our conference, Chain React, or our work, it's all collaborative, and we love being creative.
\n\nAnd the last thing is being pioneers, pioneering spirit. We like to be pioneers in technology. We put out a lot of open source. And we try to bring that pioneering spirit everywhere we go. And then, there's a lot of different things that kind of come out of that. For example, we have this internal saying, which is, "Don't do hard things alone."
\n\nSo, you have a hard thing coming up? And it could be hard in various ways. It could be a technically challenging thing. It could just be hard because of the mood you're in that day. But don't do it alone. Ask someone to help you, you know, jump in with you, pair with you. Do it together. And we love that. That's part of the high personal support and the bonitas. So, all these things come out of the foundation and pillars that we have.
\n\nWILL: Wow, I love all those. I want to pick one of them out and ask you a question around it. So, you're talking about having an impact. I'm loving this conversation just talking to you. It's just been amazing. So, for you, what do you want the impact on the world to be from your perspective?
\n\nJAMON: That's a hard question to answer, and it tends to be something that I think about a lot. I'm more of an opportunistic person. I react more than I plan ahead, that sort of thing. But with that said, I think that we have had significant positive impact through a lot of different ways. So, on Twitter, for example, I try to present a...and this is authentically who I am. But I try to present a positive force out there, someone who's excited and enthusiastic about the technology, who supports other people, even who you might consider competitors, for example.
\n\nI just retweeted recently a Callstack thing. I mean, you might consider them a competitor. They're another React Native agency. But I love Callstack. They're great people. And I retweeted one of their really amazing resources, which is the ultimate guide to React Native performance, which, by the way, is really good. And if you do React Native, you should check it out.
\n\nSo, I think what goes around comes around, and I really want to have that positive impact out there. I want to give talks that inspire people. You know, I'm a nerd, and I'm going to nerd out about stuff. And I feel like that has an impact all of its own. So, that's kind of my personal side of it. And then Infinite Red is a showcase that you can run a company the right way. You can treat people the right way. And the company can be successful along our own metrics of success.
\n\nWILL: So, one of my biggest principles that I've learned in life that's changed my leadership 100,000% is from this book called One Minute Manager. And I think it's called one-minute praise. And, essentially, the background behind it is, if you think something, just tell the person because so many times...and I get in my head, and I think amazing things about people, but I never say it.
\n\nJAMON: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: So, I want to just tell you, like, you said, the impact that you're making. You are doing that. Like, one of the reasons why I invited you on the show was because of your impact that I see that you're having on Twitter and LinkedIn and just everything that you're doing at Infinite Red. So, keep going. I want you to know that you are making a difference. I see you, and it's making a big difference in my life.
\n\nJAMON: I love that, and it makes me feel great. And I appreciate you sharing that one-minute praise there. It is something that sometimes you put it out there, and you don't really know what the impact is, you know, it's sort of hidden in maybe the likes, or the replies, or whatever.
\n\nAs an example, I just reached out to my friend Aaron Francis last night, and I told him, "Hey, I love your videos." I don't even do the tech that he does. But I watch his videos on YouTube because I just love the vibe that he has. And I told him that. I was like, "You're doing a great job. You're being a very good advocate for your company." And I agree with you; I think that just taking the moment to reach out and say, "Hey, I think you're doing good work," it encourages people to do more of it. So, I appreciate it a lot, Will. That's really nice of you to say.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, definitely. If you can go back, what is some advice that you would give yourself? We could do both at the beginning when you did ClearSight and whenever you merged and did Infinite Red. Was there any advice that you're like, wow, I learned these lessons, and they were game changers for me?
\n\nJAMON: [laughs] Boy, this could be a whole nother podcast, to be honest. There are so many different things that I've kind of learned over the years. I feel like, you know, there's value in, you know, there was actually...I forget exactly where I heard this, but it was about Cloudflare, the company.
\n\nAnd a long time ago, as they were sort of launching, one of the people that worked on the...I think it was their founder, actually. One of their investors told him, "Hey, running a company is sort of like flying an airplane. You want to make sure that it's well-maintained at all times. And then, when you're flying, you keep the wheel steady and the nose 10 degrees above the horizon so you continue to rise. And you don't need to shoot for the moon. We're not a rocket here. Just continue to execute well, make sure that it's well maintained, make sure that you're continually rising."
\n\nAnd Cloudflare is a good example of this, and I think that Infinite Red is as well. Every year, we try to do something where we're continuing to keep that nose 10% above the horizon. That doesn't always mean growing. Like, we don't hire all that often. We don't grow in terms of headcount, but we grow in other ways. And you can see that looking back over the years. Every year, there was something that we continued to, you know, improve, keeping that nose 10 degrees above the horizon. And so, that's a big one. And you can just go do all the little things really well and continue to think long term and where are you headed. And if you do the right things long enough, good things happen.
\n\nWILL: I love that because, especially when I'm working out, I try to shoot for the moon.
\n\nJAMON: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: I go all out. So, that was some amazing advice. I don't even remember who told me, but when I first started programming, I tried to shoot for the moon. And, oh, I crashed and burned so many times [laughs] because it's just something you can't just master it, and just like, I got it, da da da. And I love that advice. That's amazing advice. So, that's perfect.
\n\nJAMON: Yeah, it really stuck with me, and I have so many more lessons. I have actually kept a notebook of profound things that I've heard over the years, and I actually really enjoy that minute praising you said. And I'm going to look up the quote after this, and I'm going to put it in my notebook.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nWILL: Yeah, yeah. It's been a game-changer because I'm a very straightforward person. And so, a lot of times, like, I don't mind addressing an issue just head-on. But what I found is I'm just always doing that. And I never had equity in the bank at times. This is when I was a very young leader. I didn't have equity. And so, it was just hard to tell people, "Hey, can we tweak this? Can we do that?"
\n\nAnd then I had to sit back and say, okay, what can I change to be a better leader? And it's like, I can connect better. And I see so many things. Like, I'm very observant, I think. To be honest, it's helped me in every area, even with my spouse, with my kids, with friends. It's just saying, "Hey, I see what you did. I see that you made breakfast." Or "My kids, I see that you made this beautiful mud pie for me. And it's amazing. So, thank you. Thank you." And so, yeah, it's been a game changer for me.
\n\nJAMON: Yeah, one of my friends, his goal was...and he's a leader. And he said that his goal with everyone on one was to give them one thing to change and highlight one thing they did well like you said, equity in the bank. He was talking about when he was a leader of, like, a call bank. And he said, "No matter how bad the call was, I wouldn't give them more than two things to improve because there was no way that they could take ten critiques and improve. They would just be defeated." And then, he would review and see if they could improve one more thing, avoided negative language, things like that. So, that's a really interesting concept.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, definitely, definitely. So, I have one other question for you. What motivates you? What's your wind in your sails? What keeps you going? Because I know running a consultant agency is not easy. What keeps you going?
\n\nJAMON: For me, motivation tends to be enthusiasm for learning, really more than anything, like going into something new and, like, exploring. I see it more as exploring even than learning. With a consultancy, there's always so many different...it's never the same, you know, there's always some other challenge. And that's one of the reasons I've loved being, you know, a consultancy owner for so many years. You're never dealing with just the same stuff over and over. So, I would say it's really about the exploration that happens, and just loving code, and talking shop, and being around great people. To me, that continues to motivate me.
\n\nWILL: I love that. Do you have anything that you would like to promote — personally, Infinite Red, anything?
\n\nJAMON: Well, Infinite Red, of course. If you're looking for React Native, we are all senior-level React Native developers. We've been working together for a long time. So, big companies, the biggest ones you can think of, many of them have hired us to, you know, be the experts with their team. We usually put 2 or 3 people on a project, and then the client will come in with 2 to 10 people or whatever they have on their side. And we work with them side by side, teaching them as well as delivering code. So, that's really our bread and butter.
\n\nWe also put on the biggest and, I think, only U.S.-based React Native conference, and it's called Chain React. It's in Portland. Next year, it's going to be in July. So, go check it out: chainreactconf.com. We'd love to see you all there. I'd love to see you there, Will. And network with all these different React Native developers. There's people from Meta, and Microsoft, Amazon, all over the world, really. And they're some of the best React Native programmers you're going to ever meet, and some great talks, and great food, and a great city.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I would love to be there. Let me ask you this: how is Portland in July?
\n\nJAMON: Portland is amazing in July. Sometimes, it can get hot, but for the most part, it's just beautiful. It'll be like 85 degrees, not really any humidity, nice, little breeze. It's just a beautiful weather pattern around Julyish. That's why we chose that time of year. So, definitely, if you're going to be coming to Oregon, Portland, you know, West Coast, July is a great time to come. It's not going to be super, super hot, usually. Sometimes, I mean, we get over 100 sometimes, but no worries, you know, there's AC as well. But for the most part, it's beautiful.
\n\nWILL: You sold me already.
\n\nJAMON: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: So, I live in South Florida, so...[laughs]
\n\nJAMON: Yeah, it's going to be different in South Florida in July.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nWILL: Awesome. Well, this has been an amazing chat, and just great getting to know you and learning more about Infinite Red. Thank you for being a part of the podcast.
\n\nJAMON: Yeah. Thanks for inviting me, Will. It was a lot of fun, and you're a great host. I appreciate it.
\n\nWILL: I appreciate it.
\n\nJAMON: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
\n\nDid you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.
\n\nMore info on our website at tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.
Special Guest: Jamon Holmgren.
Sponsored By:
thoughtbot's Incubator Program is back for a third round! This episode introduces founder Josh Herzig-Marks of Knect, and he will be sharing his journey from freelance work to joining the program and what happens throughout! So far, he appreciates the deliberate communication practices required for practical remote work, despite remote work already being second nature to him, and he understands the importance of proactive and transparent communication in a team setting.
\n\nOne critical insight for Josh so far was the misconception surrounding the term "CRM" in personal relationship management. His moment involved mislabeling a survey, which led to confusion about the project's intent.
\n\nAs the Incubator Program progresses and continues to scale, Jordyn expresses excitement about involving more teams with different geographic focuses. The goal is to foster a collaborative environment within the thoughtbot Incubator Slack channel, encouraging past and present participants to share experiences and advice.
\n\nWe invite listeners who resonate with any of the challenges heard or have potential solutions to reach out! Our next Incubator episode will introduce our other Session 3 participants, Mike and Chris, founders of Goodz.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nLINDSEY: My name is Lindsey Christensen, and I head up marketing for thoughtbot. For anyone listening or joining who isn't familiar with thoughtbot, we're a product design and development consultancy that helps you make great products and help make your team a success.
\n\nOne of the very cool ways we do that is with the thoughtbot Startup Incubator, which is a program that we launched this year and that Jordyn, who's with us today, has been heading up. What's up, Jordyn? And today, what we're going to be doing is catching up with one of the latest founders who's participating in the incubator and seeing what he's been up to since the kickoff over these last two weeks.
\n\nJOSH: It's been two weeks. It's been two really fast weeks.
\n\nLINDSEY: [laughs] Josh, could you give us a little introduction to yourself?
\n\nJOSH: Sure. I'm Josh. Hi. I've been in tech product management for, like, 20-ish years, 15 or so of those were in head-of-product roles. And a bunch of those early on were my own startup, where I discovered I was a pretty mediocre founder but really liked this product leadership thing. I had a very lucky exit, which I leveraged into a series of first product manager, first head of product, first product leader roles at a series of early-stage companies across a ton of domains: B2B, B2C, FinTech, mobile, Revtech.
\n\nAnd then, a little over a year ago, my partner and I got to do this thing we've been talking about for a while, which was we swapped who the primary parent was. We have two kids, two teens, 13 and 15, right now, so that's eighth grade and ninth grade. I wanted to take over primary parenting so that they could focus as much or as little on their career as they wanted to in the same way they had allowed me to do for the first 15-ish years of our kids being kids.
\n\nAnd if I were a better person, I would have found some kind of job that allowed for work-life balance, but I'm not. I have a whopping case of ADD, which we'll probably come back to later on in this conversation. And the way that I knew I'd be able to actually fulfill my responsibility as a primary parent was by retiring from salaried work. So, I did that a little over a year ago, last summer. And kind of keep me busy and occupied in between 8:30 in the morning, you know, school drop off and 3:00 o'clock in the afternoon school pickup.
\n\nAnd when I'm not doing shopping, and cooking, and lunches, and doctor's appointments, and dentist appointments, and orthodontist appointments, and play dates, and soccer practices, and basketball practices, and soccer games, and basketball games, and Bar and Bat Mitzvahs, and all the other things that we do, I built a very small niche coaching mentorship and advisory practice around founders, solo product managers, and first-time heads of product. And that's pretty much up until about two weeks ago what I had been doing with myself.
\n\nLINDSEY: That's a great update. I especially liked all the practices that you have to go to. [crosstalk 02:54]
\n\nJOSH: I do like practices. We went to a co-ed soccer game for my middle school kid. And it was the first time that the boys' team and the girls' team ever played together, and they got totally clobbered by this other team. And what I loved about it at the end was the kids weren't bummed. They were like, "That was really fun."
\n\nAnd, you know, for a lot of these kids, they've been friends since kindergarten. So, this is, like, nine years of being friends and playing recess soccer together. And they're not very good at soccer, but they just really love all playing together so much. And they just bring so much sportspersonship to the field. It was really a pleasure.
\n\nLINDSEY: Okay. So, you're doing all this fun primary parenting and going to all the fun practices. You've got a coaching business that you're working on as well. But there was this idea, this idea that's needling. What brings you to us?
\n\nJOSH: I think before it was an idea, it was a problem. And I knew this was a Josh problem. And the Josh problem was that I have a really big network, you know, built over the past, you know, more than 20 years of professional life. And, you know, one of the joke lines I have is that the solution to almost any business problem is found in talking to more people. I really value being able to, you know, call people up, message them, text them, email them, get together with them, ask them lots of questions, listen hard. And I try really hard to reciprocate, doing the same thing.
\n\nI don't know what your professional network looks like, Lindsey or Jordyn, over the past, I don't know, couple years, decade, however long it's been, you know. But what used to be email and LinkedIn, maybe, and maybe getting together in some local meetups, has really spiraled what, to me, feels, again, whopping case of ADD, completely out of control, right?
\n\nI have my LinkedIn network, which has not gone away, right? And now I'm a member of, I don't know, Jordyn, we share these a lot, a dozen different professional networking Slacks. Those are the ones that Jordyn and I share, probably far, far more than that, right? Product management ones, entrepreneurship ones, product marketing ones, engineering ones, tech company ones, ones geographically based for the Boston area, ones that are focused on things like climate change and climate tech. So, a ridiculous number of these.
\n\nAnd as somebody with some experience and the privilege to have some free time, it feels kind of like, I don't know, an obligation sounds too grandiose, but it feels like a nice way that I can give back is by participating and trying to be helpful inside of these. So, that's happened.
\n\nAnd Discord became a thing, you know, certainly, it had been a thing for gamers since before that. But since the beginning of the pandemic, Discord became a thing. I'm in, like, I don't know, a dozen different similar Discord groups. And I'm in WhatsApp communities, and I'm in Telegram communities. And in-person meetups have started to happen again.
\n\nAnd I found myself kind of losing control. I was telling people, whether, you know, over the phone, or in Zoom calls, or direct messages, that I'd make connections to them, make intros, and it was getting increasingly hard to do that. I was forgetting about people, you know, like, it's hard to remember to stay in touch with all of your colleagues when you move on from past roles.
\n\nAnd, you know, I would try to make connections to people to be like, okay, Lindsey, you know, you wanted to meet somebody else in marketing in the Boston area. And I remember that, like, six years ago, they worked at Rocket, and now they've moved on to something else. I can't remember what it's called. And, like, how do you, like, you know, page through your email and your Slack connections and your LinkedIn to find that person? And that was really hard, too.
\n\nSo, I have ADD. My family would say that I'm, like, moderately functional. So, how do I achieve that? By creating systems for myself. And I did all the things which other people have tried to do. I built myself, like spreadsheets and Notion databases. I have an awful lot of, like, Notion databases now powered by forms. I'm like, just put your information in, and it'll appear magically into my database where I try to, you know, push the work onto other people. And none of it was really working for me. And that was kind of the genesis of the idea and then trying to figure out, is this a Josh problem, or is this a broader problem? That's kind of how I got started.
\n\nLINDSEY: Lots of people, lots of channels, not a lot of tracking or confusing tracking. And we chatted briefly before, you know, you were starting the program. And this really resonated for me. And I also ended up doing a user interview [chuckles] with the team about it.
\n\nJOSH: Yeah [laughs].
\n\nLINDSEY: Because yeah, in my role, and moving from different companies or doing mentoring on the side, and being in investor communities and marketing communities, it gets overwhelming for sure. And I feel the pain. And I've had the embarrassing moments of not remembering how I know someone or a conversation we had, or someone I really respect asking me for an intro, and I'm like, I don't remember anything about how I know that person.
\n\nJOSH: I mean, that was both gratifying and disappointing. Gratifying, like, oh, it's not just a Josh problem; we all struggle with this, and disappointing, right? And as I've had more of these conversations, just to realize, like, I know almost nobody who doesn't struggle with this. There's a few. There's a few outliers, a few weirdos, a few superheroes who are able to do this really well and who feel in control. And, like, literally, as they describe it, it sounds like...Jordyn, you're nodding, right? It sounds like a superpower as they're describing how they do this, how they kind of manage it.
\n\nJORDYN: [laughs]
\n\nJOSH: But for the most part, thank goodness it's not a Josh problem. The bummer is, nobody has, like, you know, the magic incantation, right? The spell or the secret or, like, the one weird trick, or the tool or, like, could I just give you money and solve this thing? And none of this really exists today. And that was kind of a bummer. I was hoping for, you know, better news that this was a solved problem.
\n\nLINDSEY: [laughs] Yeah. Jordyn, heading over to you for a minute, Josh applied for the incubator with this problem that he was working on. We had a lot of great applications, I think, for this session. What made you think or you and the team land on Josh as one of our session three founders that would be a great fit for the programming?
\n\nJORDYN: I'd say it was probably two factors; one is the stage. What's really tough was figuring out who's a good stage fit for us. So, like, what that means is you've identified a specific enough problem. You're not just, like, I want to solve world hunger or something, like, super broad. There's enough of a specific pain point or a problem that you're trying to solve that there's, like, we might conceivably make progress on it in eight weeks. But you're not so far along that you are basically like, "Hey, I've got the specs for an MVP. Can you just build it?" Which is, like, too late for us.
\n\nAnd part of that is a discovery mindset of, "Hey, I've identified this pain point. I think other people have it. But I am very open to how we solve the problem or learning new things about it, learning that it is a bigger need in a market I've never thought about," like being open to the things we might learn together. So those things: stage fit, mindset fit.
\n\nBut, also, like, it is a problem that is addressable with software, right? thoughtbot's focus is software. Like, yes, we have worked on products that are not software products, but, like, our bread and butter is software. And my personal bread and butter professionally is software. So, is the problem on the table something that, you know, software is a big component in meeting the need?
\n\nSo, it's, you know, it's stage. So, I guess it's three things: stage, founder mindset, which is this combination of having conviction but being open-minded, a very weird [laughs] thing to find in a person. And then, you know, can we conceive of a way to address this with software without jumping to a solutionizing? That's sort of what we're looking for, and Josh checked all of those boxes.
\n\nAnd I think, also, just had a problem that people really resonated [laughs] with, which is clear from [laughs] what Lindsey was saying and for me personally as well, I think I should [laughter] say. This is a problem I have. So, when Josh and I first talked about it, I was just like, yes, I would love to solve this problem. I also wish there was some spell, or incantation, or weird trick, or existing products, et cetera.
\n\nJOSH: We might have spent an hour nerding out over all of the things that we've tried, yeah.
\n\nJORDYN: The things that we've tried, emphasis on the nerding.
\n\nJOSH: On the nerding part, yeah.
\n\nJORDYN: Any of you listening [crosstalk 10:45]
\n\nJOSH: Or what if we get sneakier connect Google Sheets to this, like, really weird web query and [laughs] --
\n\nJORDYN: [laughs] Exactly. And then giving up because it's totally unmaintainable or, like, [laughter] impossible, yeah. So...
\n\nJOSH: Right. Oh, and it's all crap, too [laughs].
\n\nJORDYN: Right, right. So, if anyone out there listening is like, "Oh yeah, that's me," first of all, you're not alone. Second of all, please reach out to us. We would like to interview you [crosstalk 11:09]
\n\nJOSH: Or, if anyone out there is like, "Oh, I have this thing solved," right? If you got the solution, please reach out to us.
\n\nJORDYN: [laughs] Yes, also, please.
\n\nJOSH: You can save us six more weeks of work [laughs].
\n\nJORDYN: If you know the solution, definitely tell us. Anyway, so to your question, though, Lindsey, that's how this [inaudible 11:23], and it just seemed like a great fit along those lines.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. So but, Josh, you mentioned...well, I think you kind of downplayed your founder history a little bit. But you've been a founder who had success, certainly a product team leader who has been very successful in the early-stage teams. What were you looking for from thoughtbot? Like, what attracted you to working with the thoughtbot team on your problem when you have all this kind of past experience already?
\n\nJOSH: I think there's probably three parts to it; one is I know a bunch of people in the thoughtbot team pretty well. In past roles, I have actually hired thoughtbot; I think it was twice. And I've referred a bunch of your current and past clients as well. Like, I'm just generally a big thoughtbot fan. I think I've even used thoughtbot products long before I even knew, like, Chad or Jordyn, some of your old products from, like, you know, the early 2000s. So, we're going really OG here. So, I knew thoughtbot really well and think really highly of everybody who I've interacted with there.
\n\nNumber two is, I know, you say incubator, but, for me, the word that's really been resonating has been accelerator. It can be really slow the early, I don't know, weeks, months, years to go from an idea to, hey, this is really an opportunity. And I didn't want to spend weeks or years at this. I have a full-time job. It's, you know, taking care of the family. Like, that's what I wanted to be focused on. And if this was really an opportunity, I wanted to figure this out relatively quickly. And I love the fact that thoughtbot has this eight-week accelerating program.
\n\nAnd the third one is I had this...and, you know, not every assumption I came in with was one that I'm going to leave the program with. But I came in with the assumption that a lot of the risk was technology risk. I had a rough idea. I was quickly discovering this wasn't just a Josh problem; this was a broader problem, right? There's plenty of challenges beyond that, but it's good to discover that your problem is broad. But is it something which can actually get built and built relatively straightforward?
\n\nJordyn here [inaudible 13:27] this all the time. You know, I don't like science project problems, right? And thoughtbot is really, really good at building software and partnering with somebody who could help to remove that kind of risk as a non-technical founder, as somebody with literally zero technical skills, I find that very, I don't know, comforting, exciting.
\n\nLINDSEY: Okay, writes down in marketing notebook: "Accelerator resonating more than incubator." [laughs]
\n\nJOSH: I wanted to get to the decision...incubator is a better word for it. But I personally wanted to get to that is this a good opportunity or a bad opportunity decision faster.
\n\nLINDSEY: To quickly validate invalidate.
\n\nJOSH: Right. I wanted this, like, I wanted to timebox this thing, and eight weeks is a nice chunk of time.
\n\nLINDSEY: Love that, yeah.
\n\nJORDYN: I want to just, like, flag here that, like, all of these words are very frustrating [laughter]. And we had a really hard time picking one.
\n\nLINDSEY: I know [laughs].
\n\nJORDYN: And we really actually, like, in literal terms, I think that program is way more, like, founder bootcamp than anything, but thoughtbot can't run a bootcamp without people thinking it's a Rails bootcamp, right?
\n\nJOSH: Yeah.
\n\nLINDSEY: [laughs]
\n\nJORDYN: Like, if we just said, "thoughtbot bootcamp," people would be like, oh, as a developer, I should go to this bootcamp, and thoughtbot will teach me how to be a better engineer, which would be totally reasonable from a brand standpoint, right? So, we were like, all right, not bootcamp.
\n\nAnd then accelerator typically comes with investment dollars, in my experience as a founder, and we don't invest cash in the companies that we work with yet. So, that was off the list. And that just left incubator, which, eh, like, I don't disagree that it's not the best word, but, whatever, we lack a good one.
\n\nJOSH: I'll tell you one thing. So, I'm involved with other things in this space. I'm based in Boston but for Raleigh's brand-new Founder Institute chapter, which I think is a great program. And I'm really proud of the, you know, first cohort of founders that are going to the program down there. And I love them. And I love their energy, and enthusiasm, and focus and that we at Founder Institute are providing them with value. I think we really are, or I wouldn't be participating.
\n\nBut I wanted people to work alongside me. And I think that's actually one of the things which is really unique about thoughtbot's program. This isn't, like, you know, a bunch of other founders with varying amounts of experience working alongside you. This is, like, actual people who do things: designers and software engineers, developers who are working alongside you and learning alongside you. But it makes it, I would say, less of a lonely process.
\n\nThis is one of the things I remember. When I founded a company, the one time I did this prior, I did it with my best friend, which is about as unlonely as you can possibly get. And it still is really, really lonely. Having this like, you know, team backing you up and a company backing up that team and organization is nice.
\n\nLINDSEY: Thanks for sharing that about the loneliness factor. That kind of reminds me, Jordyn; I know in the last session, you were trying out the idea of, like, this founder emotion tracker. Has that made its way to session 3?
\n\nJORDYN: Not really, mostly because both of the teams we're working with, two teams, by the way, not just Josh, have been founders before. And so, the emotional rollercoaster of, like, literally every day, you know, Monday, you feel like a million bucks because you have a really great idea, and you're really excited about it. And then, Tuesday, you talk to a bunch of people who add some complexity to the assumptions that you had [laughs] made on Monday. And then you start to feel like maybe this isn't a thing, oh no.
\n\nAnd then, Wednesday, you learn about some, like, technical thing that you didn't realize was a stumbling block. And so, by the end of Wednesday, you're like, everything is doomed. I shouldn't even be doing this. I've just wasted everyone's time. But then the team wakes up on Thursday and is like, "Actually, there's an easy solution to this. And we've found a new group of people to talk to who have this problem in a really clear way." And then you feel like a million bucks again. And then you just cycle through it.
\n\nLike, that cycle is something that Josh and our other founding team have actually felt before. And so, we haven't really been, like, leaning on the emotional roller coaster timeline as much just because it hasn't been as relevant. And that's kind of what's tough about the program we're running, which is that everybody comes to it with different assets in hand. I always think of that scene in The Princess Bride when they're outside the castle, and Westley is like, "What do we have? What are our assets?"
\n\nIt's like you arrive to this with different assets in hand. You might have already talked to 50 people, but you have no technical background. So, you don't know what on earth to do about the information that you've learned. Or, you know, maybe you do have a technical background. And so, you've done a bunch of solutionizing, but you haven't talked to a single person about [laughs] whether they have the problem you're trying to solve. Anyway, it really runs the gamut.
\n\nAnd so, the programming is designed to help teams find focus and find market message fit. But what people roll up with is very different. In this case, we have a cohort, so to speak, that has some prior startup experience, especially as founders. And so, they know a little bit more about how every day is going to emotionally feel different. And that emotional rollercoaster workstream is on the roadmap. But we don't spend as much time with it as we did with Ashley and with Agnes before in the first two sessions because they were first-time founders and really didn't know how they should be feeling.
\n\nAnd that, to me, is one of the many value adds, including what Josh mentioned, like just having a team diligently focused on your problem space full-time is a huge boost of momentum and confidence. Just, like, people thinking about the same thing you're thinking about with you and bringing their earnest efforts to solving the problem has been one of the main things people have found valuable about it, in addition to the acknowledgement that, like, you're going to have a lot of different emotions. And it doesn't mean anything necessarily.
\n\nLike, your day-to-day emotion does not mean that you are a failure or that this is a bad idea or that you're a success, and this is a good idea [laughs]. Like, neither of those things is necessarily true.
\n\nLINDSEY: So, let's chat a little bit about what has actually been happening since kickoff. So, two weeks ago, started. Jordyn, maybe I'll start with you. What has the first two weeks of programming looked like?
\n\nJORDYN: We have been really heads down on interviewing. Josh rolled up having done a survey, which yielded a bunch of conversations already, conversations [inaudible 19:34]. So, we iterated on the scripts. You know, part of the efforts of the first couple of weeks are really geared toward having our team understand the things that Josh understands already. We need to kind of get on the same page.
\n\nAnd so, we try to talk to as many people as we can because there's nothing...One of our theses here, beliefs, I don't know what the right word is, is that there's really nothing that drives momentum quite like team alignment, and there's nothing quite like talking to customers and hearing for yourself what their pain points are. That drives alignment. So, it's like, everyone's talking to people. I'm sure people out there have been on teams where it's like one person talks to customers, and they're translating to everybody else. "Here's what I'm hearing. So, this is what we need to build."
\n\nAnd it's like if everybody has first-hand experience with the conversations, alignment and conviction sort of grows organically out of it. It's a lot less work to align if everybody's talking to people. So, it's always, like, the first order of business is, how do we talk to people so that we know the things you know to the level that you know them? So, we've been doing a ton of interviewing. And then, that's about driving alignment and understanding, but it's also ultimately about trying to drive focus.
\n\nSo, as we are talking to people and listening to them, we're really trying to listen for patterns and to map those to the market segments these people inhabit. So, like, every one of us has our own network that we're bringing to this effort, and so we start there. And we start where you are with what you have, right? I think that's, like, a Teddy Roosevelt quote: start where you are with what you have. Somebody said that. Anyway, so we all do that.
\n\nBut really, ultimately, we want to...building software is all about a repeatable problem that you can address with a one-size-fits-all [laughs] more or less product. What we're trying to find is, like, we're trying to listen for patterns and listen for pain points that are addressable and really focus in on a narrow niche or a situation context that we can address in some repeatable way. And I would say, at this moment, we've done a bunch of that interviewing. And we're now like, okay, we're feeling the need to focus, but we have not quite started that dive. I don't know, Josh, maybe you feel the same or different.
\n\nJOSH: No, I think that's right on. I mean, you know, the first thing we all had to do was develop our own [inaudible 21:45] understanding of the problem and the potential user, right? It wasn't going to happen from me talking to people. It was going to happen from us talking to people. And then, the next step is to start to align that empathic understanding, which sounds like a thing that gets finished, but really, it's only a thing that gets started and never really ends.
\n\nAnd then, you know, we got to be willing to make some bets, right? We got to figure out, you know, what is our hypothesis? You know, what do we think are the risky bits? And what are the things that differentiate this from being a problem? Where I think we have broad agreement across the entire team. And, literally, everybody we spoke to, the only people who don't think this is a problem are the ones who have some complicated, ridiculous system they built themselves, which they will acknowledge is not going to apply to anybody else. So, the problem is broad, right? But where exactly is the opportunity? Because at the end of the day, we're looking to build a business.
\n\nLINDSEY: Josh, I saw your head nodding during the alignment discussion. How has it been aligning with the team around the problem you've been thinking so much about?
\n\nJOSH: I don't know, Jordyn, how you feel about it. I've found it really fun. And it's been fun for a couple of reasons. I think the number one reason that I really like it is this is a really diverse team, right? So, Jordyn and I are in Boston and have; I would say, fairly similar tech company entrepreneurish sort of, you know, hand-wavy, miscellaneous tech people, startup folks background. We have somebody in Denmark, but she's Spanish. We have someone in maybe London right now, but he's Nigerian. And we have a member of our team in Saudi Arabia. That's a lot broader perspective.
\n\nAnd I think that comes to play in, like, at least three different ways. They come with their own perspectives, and their own world experiences, and lived experiences, and values, and ways they talk about those things, right? Number one. They come with their own networks of people to talk to you for whom it's easy to reach. So, it's not just all hand-wavy, tech startupy folks like I'd be talking to. And, like, literally, my entire list is, like, oh, they're all people like me. Like it was really easy to get 60 people to want to talk to me because they're all people I've been talking to for a while, which is awesome and maybe a little bit uninteresting.
\n\nBut more than that, they all bring different language. Like, we've been struggling. Like, this is what we did. We spent what? Two hours of our hour and a half meeting this morning struggling with, like, are we having a difference, like, meaning or a difference of words? And it's not an efficient way to use your time, but it really is an effective way to use your time. Because, like, that struggle of trying to communicate what we're hearing and try to communicate what we're thinking and what we're feeling, I think, has led to a much better understanding of the problem and maybe even the opportunity than we would have had otherwise. I'm a big fan of struggle.
\n\nJORDYN: Definitely. And I do feel like there's an element of this where you can never understand your customers' problems in too much detail. It's like every pass we do at this, we kind of have a deeper, more granular, nuanced sense of the problems. And just in that conversation this morning, we, like, took a problem that we had understood one way and, like, were able to break it down, like, okay, what are the actual pieces of this? Oh, there's, like, many pieces of it, right? Like you said, Josh, it feels inefficient, or sometimes it just feels like you walk out of a call and you're like, what was that about?
\n\nAnd then only later do you find, you know, maybe when we are ideating, like, ways we might solve a problem, that conversation we had that felt really murky and, like, are we just arguing about semantics here? Are we arguing [laughs]...I don't know, like, however, you might frame that, like, actually becomes really important where you're like, oh, well, I'm very glad we took the time to break this problem down because now that we're trying to develop a solution, it becomes clear that there are many, little things we're trying to solve. And we can't solve them all at once. And so, it's great that we all have a fluent understanding of the details of that because it makes those conversations much faster so [inaudible 25:30].
\n\nJOSH: Can I say a nice thing about thoughtbot? I know this isn't, like, the, you know, [crosstalk 25:34]
\n\nLINDSEY: Please. Please do. Welcome, Josh. Yeah, the floor is yours.
\n\nJOSH: Let me say a nice thing about thoughtbot. The last time I did this, I did this with my best friend, Ben, a person I had literally known since I was six years old, maybe five, I don't know, since first grade. And we were entering a new space. This was, like, grocery marketing.
\n\nAnd we talked to a crap ton of people, a lot of them doing things like going to grocery store headquarters and just talking to people and meeting people who are, like, manufacturers of a grocery product and going to trade shows with 60,000 grocers all in one giant room. Remember those days pre-COVID? We would, like, you know, take the samples with your left hand and shake with your right hand, and don't get those two things mixed up because there's a lot of people in the room with you.
\n\nAnd we talked to easily 1,000 people, and we knew how to establish that, like, shared empathic understanding of the market and the problem really well because we were side by side. We were really well-practiced at having those conversations. And, you know, after the day of, you know, shaking hands, and meeting people, and introducing ourselves was done, we'd go back to the hotel room, shared, of course, because we were young entrepreneurs who couldn't afford to get nice hotel rooms. And we'd spend the next couple of hours, like, talking about it. We, like, talked to each other all the time.
\n\nOne nice thing about thoughtbot is you're really good at working remotely and working asynchronously. And if, you know, it had been up to me by myself to be like, okay, you know, Josh, you have this, like, remote team in different time zones with, you know, non-overlapping hours. How are you going to, like, work together to establish this common understanding, this common semantic model, this common syntax for talking about the problem, and the users, and the needs, and the opportunity? I'd be like, I don't know, right?
\n\nAnd this is somebody who's, like, worked remotely for the past, I don't know, 5,6, 7 years, I mean, most of his job. But, like, still, that early bit is a thing, which, you know, I've seen a lot of thoughtbot practice and skill around. And it's not an easy skill to master. And it's one that you practiced organizationally. And that's really valuable. And I don't think I fully appreciated that until we got started.
\n\nLINDSEY: Oh, thanks. Jordyn, any thoughts on that? Were you thinking about remote setup of the program, or at this point, it's just everything is remote?
\n\nJORDYN: Working remotely can really deepen, in good ways, one's communication practices because it forces you to be intentional about communicating in a way that when you are co-located with people, you kind of don't have to because there's people in front of you when you talk to them. So, I agree, Josh, that thoughtbot does a good job of making that work, the work to communicate and stay on the same page, like, tangible, visible, whatever it is.
\n\nThat's also just something I've given a ton of thought to because I've been working remotely, like, as a primary orientation since 2010. And so, this is just, like, how I work. And it's very; I don't know, organic to my mind now that it's basically, like, if I'm doing something and I don't tell someone about it, it's like a tree falls in the forest, you know, if there's no one around to hear it. If I'm working on something and I don't tell anyone about it, it's like I didn't do anything.
\n\nCommunication is, like, 60% of the job. And the setpoint is, oh, I did something. Oh, I emailed someone. Maybe I should tell the team about this [laughs]. Just literally because you're not in a situation where I'm going to overhear a phone call that Josh is having because he's at the desk next to mine, or I'm going to, like, ambiently be aware that, like, Carol and Toby went into a conference room to talk about something. Like, while I maybe didn't consciously think about that, it's sort of in my periphery. Like, none of that is happening because we're not in the office together, right?
\n\nWe don't get to do the thing that you did with Ben, where we just talk about stuff because we're near each other. So, you really have to get into this practice of externalizing very proactively the things going on in your own mind with the team. And it's a challenge. It's work. It doesn't just happen effortlessly, right?
\n\nBut yeah, to say it's critical or to say it's a critical piece of how we approach the work is an understatement. I don't know, it's like, it is the work [laughs]. The making of the software, whatever, that's easy [laughs]. Communicating about making software that's hard [laughs]. So, I don't know, it's very heartening --
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, that makes sense.
\n\nJORDYN: To hear, Josh, that you think that we do a good job of that. I think we're constantly trying to do a better job of it, frankly. I don't know if you can do [crosstalk 29:28]
\n\nJOSH: That's probably why you do a good job.
\n\nLINDSEY: So, I know a lot of the early weeks, days has been around alignment and doing a lot of these user interviews. Have there been any moments yet, Josh, any new, like, light bulbs for you or insights, or are we not quite there yet; it's more kind of setting the scene?
\n\nJOSH: I'll share one really embarrassing one.
\n\nLINDSEY: Oooh.
\n\nJOSH: Which keeps on coming back to bite me. When I sent out the survey and, of course, I [inaudible 29:57] for everybody listening, basically, surveys are useless, except they're really nice lead generation tools for people who are willing to talk to you. But when we sent out the survey, at the top, it says something like, "Personal CRM survey." And I'm pretty sure that when I set up the calendar invite system, which is, by the way, for folks listening out there, like, you want to get your, like, operational side of this thing done before you start sending emails out because you're going to quickly, like, lose the ability to keep track of stuff.
\n\nI think the meeting of it also, I said something like personal CRM survey. And it was, I don't know, sometime in the middle of the first week, maybe later on, when, like, I think we all realized on the team that, like, CRM is the wrong framing for this thing, right? Nobody likes CRMS [laughs]. CRMs are transactional. They're tools to sell something to somebody. You know, they are tools for, like, auditing your behavior if you're a salesperson to make sure you're doing what you're supposed to be doing. They're, like, on a cadence. Like, CRMs are tools for a world, which is not what most people aspire for their personal relationships to be.
\n\nAnd I don't think we've quite settled on what this thing actually is. And maybe there isn't a thing yet, right? Maybe that's part of the challenge that we're having, like, this thing doesn't exist, but it's not a CRM. And three-quarters of the way through the interviews is when I asked people like, "So, what question should I have asked you?" They all said, "Well, you didn't ask me about personal CRMs at all." I'm like, "Okay, that's a good point [laughs]."
\n\nSo, there have been plenty of pivots inside of my head around this and the way that I think about this problem, and some of these things are still embarrassing and still kind of coming back to haunt me and maybe haunt the rest of the team as well. I don't know, Jordyn, what [crosstalk 31:27]
\n\nLINDSEY: Honestly, I was hoping for something way more embarrassing, but [laughs] --
\n\nJOSH: Way more embarrassing.
\n\nJORDYN: If that's your embarrassing...[laughs]
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, you're doing great. You're doing great.
\n\nJORDYN: You're doing great.
\n\nJOSH: Okay, the number of video calls where I'm not wearing pants.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nLINDSEY: Okay, onto the next question, Jordyn –-
\n\nJOSH: Embarrassing or awkward, I don't know, yeah.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nLINDSEY: Jordyn, you mentioned that Josh is not the only participant in this [crosstalk 31:52]
\n\nJORDYN: Great question.
\n\nLINDSEY: Tell me about, why not just Josh? What's going on? What are the developments there?
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, this is really exciting. So, we wanted to scale this program from the moment that we ran single companies [inaudible 32:08] to start because we wanted to learn as much as we could in a kind of intense, focused way from developing a process and seeing what's valuable about it. So, this was always kind of on our minds to do.
\n\nAnd the way it worked out was just that there were two teams at thoughtbot ready and willing to serve. And we had, you know, anytime we [inaudible 32:28] the application window, we always kind of have a list of folks that we're excited about. We can't take all of them. But in this case, we had the two teams. And it also kind of fell in this nice way where we've got this team with a center of gravity, you know, GMT center of gravity, essentially. And then we have another team, which has more of a, like, U.S. center of gravity. And so, the timing kind of worked out.
\n\nAnd yeah, I don't know, it wasn't anything more complex than that. It's just we'd always been on the lookout for how we could scale this effort––bring it to more folks. And this was the first opportunity where it appeared like it would work out. I mean, TBD if it's working out [laughs]. We can decide at the end [laughs]. But it's very exciting. It's fun. And we're really looking for ways to help these teams collaborate, you know, we'll see how.
\n\nEverybody's in a Slack channel together inside of thoughtbot's Slack called thoughbot incubator. And our past participants are in there as well. And we're really trying to create an atmosphere where people can help each other, share tips, talk about what they're working on. There is actually some intersection between what Josh is working on and what the other team is working on, I think, just because, Josh, what you're working on applies [laughs] to a lot of people. I think it applies to these people, too. Anyway, that's [crosstalk 33:42]
\n\nLINDSEY: It's fun to see the incubator Slack start to build out and folks talking to each other, and more thoughtboters are trickling in there. Because, Josh, you mentioned you've been a client before and a thoughtbot fan in the past. And now you can officially live in thoughtbot Slack, too, and hang out with us 24/7.
\n\nJOSH: Still just a guest.
\n\nLINDSEY: [laughs]
\n\nJOSH: Only got my two channels. Can't DM you unless you're in one of those two channels.
\n\nLINDSEY: One [crosstalk 34:11]
\n\nJOSH: But yes, it is very exciting. This is better than snacks at your downtown Boston office.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, that's great.
\n\nJOSH: I think I even added an emoji to Slack. I was pretty happy with that.
\n\nLINDSEY: Oh, nice. We've got a good custom emoji library.
\n\nJOSH: I mean, that's what we have for company culture, right? Is company emojis.
\n\nLINDSEY: To kind of finish this out here, Josh or Jordyn, do you have any calls to action for our viewers or listeners, maybe interviews or survey participants or anything else?
\n\nJORDYN: Well, certainly, if the pain point we described resonates for you [laughs], reach out. We would love to interview you. Or, like Josh said, if you actually have solved this problem [laughs] --
\n\nLINDSEY: Oh yeah, that was a good one.
\n\nJORDYN: Please reach out [laughs]. That would be amazing.
\n\nJOSH: But I actually meant that. So, like, hey, if you out there are a software developer, an entrepreneur, own a company that you think has really solved this, I would love to learn from that if you want to talk to us.
\n\nIf you are a person who struggles with this and feels like you've tried really hard to solve this, I'd love to hear from you as well. You know, did you search for a tool? Did you ask your friends? Did you try to build something yourself? Do you still use that thing you built yourself? Did you try one of those CRMs? [crosstalk 35:26] Did you try a personal CRM tool out there, right? Clay, Dex, Monica, folk, if those names resonate with you, like, I want to hear, right? I want to hear about people who feel like they're doing this thing really well or people who don't feel like they're doing as well as they should but who feel like they've put, like, real effort into it.
\n\nLINDSEY: Great. Well, we're going to be catching up with Josh here every other week.
\n\nJOSH: Great.
\n\nLINDSEY: We'll have some updates on the thoughtbot blog. And in our alternating week, we're going to be catching up with the other founders going through the incubator. So, next week, we're going to chat with Mike and Chris. And y'all will get to meet them and hear a little bit about their journey and what's led them to validating their idea in the thoughtbot incubator as well.
\n\nJOSH: And strong rec people to tune in for that one. They are extremely photogenic and very funny, and they talk slower than me, too, so a greater chance for people to understand what they're saying. So, all in all, definitely tune in for that.
\n\nLINDSEY: That's a great promo.
\n\nIf you want to stay up to date with the incubator or are thinking about applying for the next session, I think will be in the new year, you can go to thoughtbot.com/incubator. And you can also sign up for email updates. And we can make sure to send you recordings of these interviews as well as the blog updates and then keep you up to date about when applications open and end.
\n\nJordyn and Josh, thank you so much for joining today and sharing what's been going on in the early days. It's really exciting to follow along. All right, have a great day. Thanks, everyone, for watching.
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Special Guests: Jordyn Bonds and Josh Herzig-Marx .
","summary":"thoughtbot's Incubator Program is back for a third round! This episode introduces founder Josh Herzig-Marks of Knect, and he will be sharing his journey from freelance work to joining the program and what happens throughout! So far, he appreciates the deliberate communication practices required for practical remote work, despite remote work already being second nature to him, and he understands the importance of proactive and transparent communication in a team setting.\r\n\r\nOne critical insight for Josh so far was the misconception surrounding the term \"CRM\" in personal relationship management. His moment involved mislabeling a survey, which led to confusion about the project's intent. \r\n\r\nAs the Incubator Program progresses and continues to scale, Jordyn expresses excitement about involving more teams with different geographic focuses. The goal is to foster a collaborative environment within the thoughtbot Incubator Slack channel, encouraging past and present participants to share experiences and advice. \r\n\r\nWe invite listeners who resonate with any of the challenges heard or have potential solutions to reach out! Our next Incubator episode will introduce our other Session 3 participants, Mike and Chris, founders of Goodz.","date_published":"2023-11-07T00:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/15095e63-8f13-423e-8ef1-cc6aab6e186e.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":42494328,"duration_in_seconds":2248}]},{"id":"e326142a-87d0-4279-9cbd-2c131506a313","title":"498: RubyConf San Diego with Chelsea Kaufman and Allison McMillan","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/498","content_text":"In this episode, the focus is on RubyConf, the upcoming conference dedicated to the Ruby programming language. They start by talking about the origin and evolution of RubyConf, highlighting its growth in attendance and its impact on the Ruby community. Chelsea details how the conference has adapted to the digital format due to the COVID-19 pandemic but points out the value of in-person connections. They are looking forward to the Community Day event, which will feature various activities to encourage community interaction and an acknowledgment of scholarships that would help more people attend.\n\nThe event will offer various programming options, workshops, and talks to cater to newcomers and seasoned professionals. There will also be some level of hands-on learning through hacking activities. The conference aims to be inclusive, offering opportunities for mentorship and growth, regardless of one's career stage.\n\nTowards the end, the discussion shifts to Ruby Central, the organizing body behind RubyConf and RailsConf. Chelsea and Allison describe multiple avenues for community engagement, ranging from board membership to open-source contributions. They also encourage donations and corporate sponsorships. Don't miss your chance to register for RubyConf and engage with the fantastic Ruby community!\n\n\n\n\nRubyConf\nFollow RubyConf on LinkedIn, X, YouTube, or Mastodon.\nLearn Academy\nFollow Learn Academy on Facebook, X, LinkedIn, or Instagram.\nFollow Chelsea Kaufman on LinkedIn or X.\nFollow Allison McMillan on LinkedIn or X. Visit her website at daydreamsinruby.com.\nFollow thoughtbot on X or LinkedIn.\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Allison McMillan and Chelsea Kaufman, Board Directors, and RubyConf '23 Co-chairs. Thank you for joining me.\n\nALLISON: Hi, thanks for having us.\n\nCHELSEA: Thanks for having us. \n\nVICTORIA: Yes, I'm glad that you were able to make time to come on the show today. I understand, Allison, that you've been having very full weeks with family over the last month. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about that?\n\nALLISON: Yeah, it's...we have just ended what I call the gauntlet of Jewish holidays. But, basically, there are four Jewish holidays starting with Rosh Hashanah, which many folks know that's the Jewish New Year. But what a lot of folks don't know is that there are actually four holidays that are all in a row, each about a week apart. And you do different celebratory things for each of them. \n\nAnd so, it's been really amazing and fun, and lots of, like, sharing our home with others and meals and seeing lots of people. But it is also exhausting. And they basically all fell on weekends this year, which was nice from sort of a scheduling perspective but was exhausting in the fact that I basically have not had a weekend in over a month. So, it was wonderful and tiring. And I am, I guess, both happy and sad that they're over now. \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that does sound like a lot of quality family time, which has its pros and cons [laughs], right? So, after going through that, do you feel more rested? Or what do you feel like you need to do in order to recuperate and return to your normal energy levels after having every weekend full after that?\n\nALLISON: Oh, that's a great question. I've been looking at my calendar to be like, I should take a day off. I should take a break. I'm working for myself and [inaudible 02:02] entrepreneur consultant. So, I do have the flexibility to do so, but it is hard to look at my calendar and be like, yes, I will take this day off because I deserve it. But, ideally, I would take a day or multiple days off. \n\nVICTORIA: Yes. And some of us are lucky enough to have a reason to travel for work purposes and to sneak in a little vacation and be productive [laughs] in our companies. So, I'm curious, Chelsea, if you can tell me a little bit about the option for people to come to San Diego in November and take a restful vacation by the beach and learn a little bit more about Ruby.\n\nCHELSEA: Yeah, so RubyConf will be in San Diego this year. As a native San-dieagan, I am a bit biased, but November is a beautiful time to be in San Diego. And we're going to be at the Town and Country, which feels a little bit like we're going to be in a, like, Palm Springs resort. They just went through a major renovation. \n\nAnd there's these really awesome, like, lounge areas with fire pits and just places for people to gather, which really kind of aligns itself with some of the stuff that we're planning because we're really trying to focus in on just connecting Rubyists together. So, to me, it feels like the perfect place because I think San Diego is, one, we're a little bit more low key, a little chill. And it's a great place to just gather and connect and share with people that have, you know, similar interests. \n\nVICTORIA: Yes, I live in San Diego now, but I was from Washington, D.C., And I would come and visit my family in San Diego once a year. And they would always go on about how great it is and how beautiful, and everyone is so happy and chill. And I was like, sure, whatever. And then we [chuckles] had the opportunity to move here, and now I'm one of those people who says that [laughs]. Like, it's great, especially in November. Everywhere else is getting a little cold and fall. And San Diego has a little bit of fall, but it's still 75 degrees out. I forget what that is in Celsius. But yes, I'm also super excited. \n\nCHELSEA: We have, like, fake fall activities that you can go do. Like, Allison, when you're talking about doing all the family activities and things like that, you know, this is when we start thinking about, oh, we need to go to, like, the pumpkin patch and apple picking and do all these things, but it's not cold or, like, fall weather at all. So, you want to get all, like, bundled up in your cute fall clothes or, like, put my kids and bundle them up in cute things. But then they're, like, sweating and trying to do [laughs] all these funny activities. \n\nBut I think that there's so many beautiful things to do here that we, like, try and do these, like, fall activities. But then we just end up at the beach and play in the sand [laughs].\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I will go out in, like, shorts and a T-shirt because it's that kind of weather. And my neighbors will be wearing full puffy jackets and [laughs], like, long pants and a hat. And they're like, \"You're not from around here, are you?\" [laughs]. It's like, you guys are silly. But it's fun. Yeah, there's seasons, I think, you know, in November...I made a list of suggested activities for my team members since thoughtbot is sponsoring RubyConf this year. And we're going to have a couple of speakers at the event. And we'll have other thoughtboters available at our booth for people to come up and chat with us. So, I'm really thrilled to be hosting everyone. \n\nAnd I made a list of, like, activities, and most of them were about where to see cool animals [laughs]. I was like, of course, there's the zoo, which is the obvious one, but then there's baby leopard sharks, and there's a season for them. I think they will still be around in November; I'm curious if you know, Chelsea, actually. And then there's, like, the safari parks, and whale watching, and the sea lions at La Jolla and, like, just a bunch of cool animals to see that I think it makes San Diego really special.\n\nCHELSEA: I agree. The zoo, the safari park are great places to just hang out and see some really cool exhibits. Balboa Park, the museums there are amazing. Liberty Station is one of my favorite places to go; that it's an old historic naval training center that's been converted into an arts and culture area. So, they have, like, little shops. They have...there's museums. There's brew pubs. There's coffee shops. And then there's beautiful, like, grassy areas, and right by the water, it's one of my favorite places to just go and hang out. \n\nALLISON: This is great. I've done zero research on San Diego so far. So, just, like, I'm writing notes of what things to do and see while I'm there.\n\nCHELSEA: Yeah, I know the San Diego Ruby group is trying to put together some, like, local events and things that people can gather and do together. I know that there was a talk about doing a taco crawl. I think if I say that on the podcast, it might actually push them to do it because there are some amazing tacos in San Diego to be had.\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, I love that taco crawl. I'll reach out to them because I'll help put something like that together. I'm writing a blog post right now about all of these things and about all the other kind of events that are coming up in San Diego this fall. Great location, great time of year to be here. Tell me a little bit more about RubyConf specifically. And what are you all trying to do different this year than in past events?\n\nALLISON: There are a bunch of things that we're doing differently. Our goal this year with this RubyConf is really to sort of focus on more ways to bring the community together. I think in the last little bit so much excitement around Ruby and Ruby Central and just sort of the community in general. It's a hard time in tech. I think people need to be sort of choosier about sort of what they attend and why they're attending something. And so, we really wanted to help folks connect with each other, help folks get to know other people, help folks sort of reconnect to ways that they love Ruby and the Ruby community and being a Ruby programmer. \n\nSo, one of the things that we're doing differently is we have a three-day conference. And the way that that sort of broken down is the first day is a Community Day. And the first day is comprised of the workshops, as well as sort of this Hack Day, where people can bring their own projects. \n\nWe're going to have people there that folks can hack with, sort of open-source projects that folks can work on, all sorts of different stuff. So that people can really sort of get to know one another, work with one another, work with people that they might, you know, admire or have followed in the community for a while, and have that sort of really special experience that doesn't feel as conference-y, right? It feels a little bit more sort of organic in terms of the way that the day will flow and, the options that people have, and sort of what that day looks like. \n\nAnd then following that, we have two days of sort of RubConf with talks and speakers, et cetera. And I'll let Chelsea add anything to Community Day and then also jump into some of the sort of new and different things we're doing at RubyConf.\n\nCHELSEA: I agree with Allison in that we've really wanted to focus in on the connection side of things. But I think coming out of the last few years, out of even the last year that's been tough in the industry, just finding ways for people to connect, support, lift up each other, I think that that was something we really wanted to do. And we didn't want it to just be about going and seeing speakers. We wanted to find more ways for people to learn from each other, to connect. And so we added in quite a few of these community connection points. \n\nSo, on that first day, there's a lot of community aspects to it. We have a lot of learning happening with our workshops and also working on projects, hacking together, showing off what you're working on, connecting with people in the community. It's going to be really focused in on everyone's own skills and talents and coming together and supporting each other in where we're at in our careers, in our learning. \n\nAnd then, the next couple of days will look a little bit familiar in the way that it is structured with some new aspects kind of woven in. We'll have our Community Room, where we're bringing different community groups together so that people can learn more about what is going on in the community, how they can support, how they can connect. \n\nAnd in addition to seeing and learning about some of the new things happening in the Ruby community, we'll also have our Career Pathways room again, which will be a place for people to support their own careers. And that room was really set up so that it wasn't just about early career, but also about folks in their mid and senior careers, and finding the advice, finding the resources, finding the mentorship that they might need in whatever stage of their career that they're at, and figuring out how we can together as a community grow as a whole. \n\nVICTORIA: I really appreciate the focus on community. And, for me, as managing director at thoughtbot, in deciding to invest in which conferences we want to attend and sponsor, we find more value in groups that are trying to bring people together around a common passion and purpose versus a particular product. \n\nBut I'd like to hear from each of you if you can tell me, what does the community mean to you? And I'm looking for, like, a personal story on how you've benefited or how you've engaged with the Ruby community in the past. And what makes you motivated as CEOs and founders of your own companies [laughs] to spend all this time organizing a conference?\n\nALLISON: Many, many, many years ago, I did a Rails Girls workshop. It was actually my first introduction into the tech community, into programming in general. And, for me, really, I did Rails Girls. I did not actually expect to like programming. But I was sort of launching a startup, and I wanted to learn more about tech and blah, blah, blah. And at the end of the day, I was, like, so energized and so excited about what I had built and what I had done.\n\nThe Ruby community in D.C., who I always think is just a group of really special individuals, was so supportive, was so wonderful, was so, like, \"Here's where we co-work on Wednesdays. Come to this coffee shop. Here's how you can keep learning,\" just was so encouraging. You know, I went to the local Ruby meetup sort of really not knowing anything. And they were excited about, you know, newbies being there and asking questions and, you know, really sort of getting to know folks who are just starting out in their programming journey. \n\nAnd really, through that, I mean, I went to my first RubyConf as a scholar. Was strongly encouraged to do a lightning talk, did a lightning talk. That's how I, you know, sort of ended up having a whole bunch of informational interviews and having conversations with folks. And really, that's how I got my first real job in tech. And so, you know, I want people that are coming into the industry now to have that same support, to have those same opportunities, to have that same encouragement. \n\nAnd, for me, sort of planning RubyConf, planning these conferences, being a part of Ruby Central is really me giving back to the community that has gotten me to where I am today, right? And it's amazing, also, to just...I'm still in touch with the people that were at my table, sort of guiding and mentoring at that first Rails Girls session or the people who I met at the first-ever Ruby meetup that I went to. \n\nI still talk to them. I'm still in touch with them. We still get together. I still ask them for, you know, advice and guidance sometimes. And sometimes, they ask me, at this point, for advice and guidance, which is fun. But yeah, it just means so much to me that I have really been able to get to where I'm at because of the support and encouragement of the community.\n\nCHELSEA: I have a similar story. I guess over, gosh, over a decade ago, I also went to my first RailsBridge and got introduced to the community there at RailsBridge. And, you know, at the time, I wasn't in tech. I was in the theater. I come from the performing arts. I had spent a very long time executive leadership in the theater. And I got introduced to this community that was so warm and welcoming to people wanting to learn and grow. And I was so interested in how communities are built and how people connect together that I started getting more and more involved in the Ruby community here in San Diego.\n\nAnd just like Allison was saying about the welcoming and warmth that she felt from the D.C. community, I felt the same way here in San Diego. Before that, you know, I had spent so many years being the only woman in a room. I had been in an industry that made me feel like my voice was not always heard. And when I walked into this room, I felt like I mattered. I felt like people wanted to hear what I had to say. And they wanted to learn from my experiences. \n\nAnd in 2014, San Diego hosted RubyConf here. And at that point, my business partner and I launched our business, LEARN Academy, and it's still running strong today. But it was about creating that on-ramp for people and a launchpad into this industry where they could make a difference and they could have their voice heard. And they could be a part of a conversation, even if they hadn't been a part of that community for many, many years, that their background mattered, that their growth mattered. \n\nAnd helping people find their voice at a table is something that is so important to me that I love being able to bring that into the planning of this conference, into a lot of the work that I've done with Ruby Central, with LEARN academy. And really just helping people understand that just because you don't have the traditional background, maybe you didn't start programming at the age of two, you can have a different background and a different path and still provide so much value. \n\nAnd I think that that is the thing that I wanted to continue to be a part of and to make sure was a part of the conversation, that we need so many different types of people at the table. And I want to make sure that our community is responsive to that, that it's inclusive to that, that it's equitable as best we can, and just allows people to share their own experiences. And so, you know, I feel like, for me, we're, you know, almost at our 10-year mark at LEARN academy and that we were launching the company at RubyConf in 2014. To have it here again this year is so special to me. \n\nI remember being at the conference many years ago; you know, we spend a lot of time helping companies figure out how to work with early-career developers and to create those pipelines for them so that there's career growth for them. And, you know, I remember sitting around the table and just saying, \"Hey, who wants an internship? Who wants to, you know, help these early-career developers?\" And everyone raised their hand, and we found some of our very first partners at that conference. And it's always been such a warm and welcoming community that has allowed me to feel like I have a voice and then allows me to help other people find theirs.\n\nVICTORIA: Wow, thank you both for sharing that. I totally relate to that feeling of a welcoming community and just getting the sense that, like, wow, everyone who does Ruby is really nice [laughs]. And I think that you know, for me, same as Allison, starting in D.C., there were quite a few people who were involved in Women Who Code who were running Ruby meetups. And that's where I met Valerie Woolard, who I think is also coming to San Diego for RubyConf. I'm excited to see her again. \n\nAnd it's interesting for me coming from that perspective and hearing that from both of you because I've also heard a viewpoint on Ruby community as being highly opinionated and causing certain amounts of consternation. So, I'm curious if you have any comments on that. If not, otherwise, I'm grateful that there are people working to bring that better community in the community that I'm more familiar with more to the forefront and making it more inclusive and open for everyone. \n\nSo, to, like, bring the question all the way back, it's like [chuckles], do you have any comments on, like, if there's a tendency for Rubyists to be really highly opinionated? Or what else can we do to make it more open and inclusive for people to join the community?\n\nCHELSEA: I mean, I think that people are going to be opinionated about something that they care a lot about. And I think that the thing that I've noticed in the Ruby community is people love this language. They love programming in this language, and I think that there's something very powerful about that. And it does, you know, lend itself to people [laughs] having very strong opinions about what they think needs to be out there. \n\nAnd, to me, it's not a matter of, like, whether we have strong opinions or not. It has more to do with whether we're listening or not. But I think it's really important for those of us who are leading to be the listeners, and that we should be there to make sure that there is space for people to be heard, whether their opinion is loud or not. And I think that there are people that are going to be louder than others; that is going to be true no matter where we go. \n\nBut I think that as long as there is intention around making sure that we are listening to even the quietest voices and that we are creating space for the quietest voices, that's where we're going to find more collaboration. But if we're only going out there and saying, \"This is the way it needs to be,\" and we're not willing to listen to anything else, then I think that growth will stop happening because we need to listen to everyone. We need to be able to create some kind of place for people to come together and share ideas; you know, you don't get the perspectives of all these amazing people in the industry. \n\nSo, that's why I feel like, you know, I've been on the board at Ruby Central for about a year now, and the biggest thing that I feel like I can contribute is to simply listen. If I can help in any way of filtering ideas or creating connections with people because I've been putting my ear to the ground and saying, \"Okay, these people are talking about this, and we're expanding here.\" And we just want to make sure that we're doing the best we can at being open to all different kinds of ideas and not closing anyone off. \n\nMaybe your opinion is really strong. It doesn't mean that we should shut you down. It just means that we need to make sure that there's space for other people, too. And I think that that's the part that, you know, as someone who has always been a bit of an introvert, a bit of a wallflower, I understand how hard it is to get my voice out there. And so, I often fight for the quiet people. I think in every language and any space where it's a craft, it's something that we're creating, people get really passionate about it. And that's going to happen. And I think there's something powerful in that because there's going to be change that happens from that. \n\nBut if we're not doing our part in the listening and making sure that there isn't just one voice, that there's a collective voice, that's the part that I felt so powerful when I joined the community so many years ago was that, even though I had, you know, months of experience, my questions mattered. And as long as we hold on to that, the community will continue to grow. \n\nBut those of us at Ruby Central and some of the other organizations, if we're creating space to allow people to question, allow people to speak their opinions and listen, then I think that the industry, the community will just continue to thrive because of that. But we have to be open, and we have to be compassionate when we're doing our listening.\n\nALLISON: Yeah, I agree with all of that. And I would just add in safe places, in a way that we're creating sort of safe structures and safe places for folks to communicate.\n\nMID-ROLL AD:\n\nAre your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features?\n\nWe know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it’s easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn’t looking.\n\nBy delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer.\n\nSave time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops.\n\nVICTORIA: What, if you could tell me, what does Ruby really have going for it? Like what makes Ruby a good choice for tech founders or for new companies would make someone decide they want to build with Ruby?\n\nALLISON: First, it's a little bit about just sort of the ease of the language to jump into and to understand, right? There's a lot that you can get done very quickly with Ruby and Rails. And in addition to sort of individuals being able to work in it, there's a whole community of resources, and support, and podcasts, and tutorials, and all sorts of stuff. \n\nI know that as an engineering leader at any company, when engineers are coming to me with, like, the desire to use a new language or try something new, part of what I look at is, if I'm going to hire, like, what would hiring look like? What does it look like for engineers to have to ramp up in this area? How long does that take? What resources are available? What sort of community am I pulling from and looking at? And that's both community in terms of sort of technical experience, expertise, years, et cetera, but also non-technical skills, right? What does the community look like in terms of some of those ideals around communication, collaboration, just sort of general pieces like that?\n\nAnd so, I think that, given sort of the strength of open source, strength of community, community contributions, ways to contribute, etcetera, I think that's one of the reasons that it still makes Ruby a really strong choice for folks to build in and to work with.\n\nVICTORIA: What type of people, what personas do you think will be the most interested in attending RubyConf? Is it all just going to be, like, senior or super Ruby developers, or what?\n\nCHELSEA: Oh, I don't think so. I mean, this RubyConf, in particular, is great for anyone on a learning journey. We've worked really hard to make sure there's a good breadth of programming for different folks in different stages of their careers. I think that, you know, those of you that are maybe earlier on there, this is a great opportunity to meet people who are maybe even a step or two ahead of you. I think that the best mentorship that you can find is someone who is only maybe a year ahead of you because they're going to recognize where you're at and help you along the way. And I think that there's a lot of opportunities here for that. \n\nI think that with our Community Day, the hacking that's going to be involved, like, maybe, as a new developer, you wouldn't be able to come in and, like, get your hands really dirty. But you'll get to sit next to somebody who has been through all the different stages and get to watch, and explore, and learn. I think that making those connections could be really great for anyone's career. I think that our mid-level developers, folks that are our management, there's great resources for them to connect with other developers in similar stages. There's great workshops. \n\nBecause of our focus on the community, I think that it's going to be a place where you can really connect with other Rubyists. And so, if you are at a stage in your career that you want to figure out what that next spring is, where that next ladder step is, this is a good place to see all the different options because you're going to be surrounded by people in all different stages of their careers. \n\nAnd what we've, I think, said now quite a few times is so many people there are just so excited to help people continue that growth. And so, I think that no matter what stage you're in, you're going to find people there that are excited to help you along the way. \n\nThat being said, I think for our more senior, more advanced, our executive leadership, this is going to be a great place to, one, meet some really great talent, and, two, I think, learn from other folks in the industry of, like, where people are at, what we're struggling with, and how we're changing and doing things differently. \n\nSo, I really do think there's going to be a little bit of everything for people. And what I love about that is really that it gets to the core and heart of the Ruby community because we're so excited about new folks coming in that that growth continues, that you have folks like Allison who started out as a scholar and want to give back. \n\nAnd then because we have folks at all those different stages, you can find people that are, you know, maybe a step or two ahead of you that are going to be able to help bring you up to that next level. So, I think it's an exciting opportunity for people to really meet new people, learn some new things, maybe find a little bit of encouragement, empowerment on where you're going to go next on your career.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, absolutely. And it reminds me of an article I read while I was at RailsConf earlier this year about why we do conferences and what's the whole point. And, you know, for me, all of those things are true, like, all those values. As an executive, I'm going to meet a lot of great talent. I'm going to connect with other companies. I'm just going to get to show up and say hi to people and ask them questions in a way that's very informal. And that's so valuable to have that.\n\nI think where I was going to go next with this was with Ruby Central, which I believe organizes both RailsConf and RubyConf. (And you can correct me if I'm wrong on that.) I'm curious if there are anything else you want to talk about with, like how the community can engage in support and how other companies could get involved with the community and show their support.\n\nCHELSEA: I think that there's quite a few different ways for folks to get involved. We are currently recruiting board members. We just finished a round just now. But I know that in our planning, that we're likely going to bring on at least one, maybe two more, in the next six months. So, I definitely...for folks in the community that want to get involved, that is a really great place to really get involved with Ruby Central.\n\nWe also have a really strong open-source community. And we're working, oh gosh, with quite a few different companies now that are really helping to support our open-source efforts. And those are also good ways to get involved. You know, we do plan both RailsConf and RubyConf. RailsConf will be in the spring again. And, you know, it takes a village to put on a conference like this and that, you know, we also look for programming committee members to help us shape the program of the conferences. So, if you are interested in any of that, that's also another great way to get involved in the community. \n\nWe have an amazing programming committee that's helped us with RubyConf. And I'm excited to see what we do next with RailsConf. And I think that you know if you're one that's going to the conference and are saying, \"Man, I wish that they would do this,\" or \"I wish I could see that,\" come and talk to us because that's the best way for us to learn, that we want to hear all of those pieces. But don't be surprised if we then send you an email and say, \"Hey, you want to be on our programming committee with us?\"\n\nALLISON: I'll add that we also, through our website, we take donations. So, if you want to help monetarily, there's the option to do that on the website. And if you're a company, I mean, we're always looking for conference sponsorships. But if your company also is interested in getting involved in sort of more of a corporate sense of sponsoring or supporting Ruby Central, we are always open to those conversations. You can send an email to contact@rubycentral.org.\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. I have a fun question about the conference because I'm leading the event with thoughtbot since I live here. And I'm thinking about some fun swag to give away. Rank your preferences on what kind of swag you'd like to see at the thoughtbot sponsor booth: a thoughtbot-branded surfboard or, a boogie board, a bucket hat, or a pickleball paddle. Any of those interesting for you?\n\nALLISON: Wait, when you say surfboard, like, how am I going to get a surfboard back to D.C.?\n\n[laughter]\n\nVICTORIA: Okay. I think it's, like, kind of funny because if you win it, it's like, well, what do you do? [laughter] You got to shake it back. That sounds like maybe a boogie board.\n\nCHELSEA: Yeah, I'm down for a boogie board.\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you so [laughs] much for entertaining me on that one. Is there anything else that you would like to promote today?\n\nALLISON: We would love to see everybody at RubyConf. You can register. Check out the program speakers, et cetera, at rubyconf.org. You can learn more about Ruby Central at rubycentral.org. Those are, I think, the two things that we'd love to make sure everybody knows about.\n\nCHELSEA: And if you're here in San Diego, come say hello. \n\nVICTORIA: Yes, I have met up with a few random people from the internet [laughs] who have said like, \"I'm in San Diego. Who should I say hi [inaudible 34:02]?\" I was like, \"Me, me, me,\" [laughter]. So, yes, I'm very happy to meet up for drinks. Chelsea, you and I will have to get together sometime soon before the conference. And I'm super excited for RubyConf. And thank you both so much for being here today.\n\nALLISON: Thanks for having us. \n\nCHELSEA: Thank you. \n\nVICTORIA: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantsrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. \n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.\n\nAD:\n\nDid you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.\n\nMore info on our website at tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.Special Guests: Allison McMillan and Chelsea Kaufman.Sponsored By:thoughtbot: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? \r\n\r\nWe know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it’s easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn’t looking.\r\n\r\nBy delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer.\r\n\r\nSave time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops","content_html":"In this episode, the focus is on RubyConf, the upcoming conference dedicated to the Ruby programming language. They start by talking about the origin and evolution of RubyConf, highlighting its growth in attendance and its impact on the Ruby community. Chelsea details how the conference has adapted to the digital format due to the COVID-19 pandemic but points out the value of in-person connections. They are looking forward to the Community Day event, which will feature various activities to encourage community interaction and an acknowledgment of scholarships that would help more people attend.
\n\nThe event will offer various programming options, workshops, and talks to cater to newcomers and seasoned professionals. There will also be some level of hands-on learning through hacking activities. The conference aims to be inclusive, offering opportunities for mentorship and growth, regardless of one's career stage.
\n\nTowards the end, the discussion shifts to Ruby Central, the organizing body behind RubyConf and RailsConf. Chelsea and Allison describe multiple avenues for community engagement, ranging from board membership to open-source contributions. They also encourage donations and corporate sponsorships. Don't miss your chance to register for RubyConf and engage with the fantastic Ruby community!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Allison McMillan and Chelsea Kaufman, Board Directors, and RubyConf '23 Co-chairs. Thank you for joining me.
\n\nALLISON: Hi, thanks for having us.
\n\nCHELSEA: Thanks for having us.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, I'm glad that you were able to make time to come on the show today. I understand, Allison, that you've been having very full weeks with family over the last month. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about that?
\n\nALLISON: Yeah, it's...we have just ended what I call the gauntlet of Jewish holidays. But, basically, there are four Jewish holidays starting with Rosh Hashanah, which many folks know that's the Jewish New Year. But what a lot of folks don't know is that there are actually four holidays that are all in a row, each about a week apart. And you do different celebratory things for each of them.
\n\nAnd so, it's been really amazing and fun, and lots of, like, sharing our home with others and meals and seeing lots of people. But it is also exhausting. And they basically all fell on weekends this year, which was nice from sort of a scheduling perspective but was exhausting in the fact that I basically have not had a weekend in over a month. So, it was wonderful and tiring. And I am, I guess, both happy and sad that they're over now.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that does sound like a lot of quality family time, which has its pros and cons [laughs], right? So, after going through that, do you feel more rested? Or what do you feel like you need to do in order to recuperate and return to your normal energy levels after having every weekend full after that?
\n\nALLISON: Oh, that's a great question. I've been looking at my calendar to be like, I should take a day off. I should take a break. I'm working for myself and [inaudible 02:02] entrepreneur consultant. So, I do have the flexibility to do so, but it is hard to look at my calendar and be like, yes, I will take this day off because I deserve it. But, ideally, I would take a day or multiple days off.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes. And some of us are lucky enough to have a reason to travel for work purposes and to sneak in a little vacation and be productive [laughs] in our companies. So, I'm curious, Chelsea, if you can tell me a little bit about the option for people to come to San Diego in November and take a restful vacation by the beach and learn a little bit more about Ruby.
\n\nCHELSEA: Yeah, so RubyConf will be in San Diego this year. As a native San-dieagan, I am a bit biased, but November is a beautiful time to be in San Diego. And we're going to be at the Town and Country, which feels a little bit like we're going to be in a, like, Palm Springs resort. They just went through a major renovation.
\n\nAnd there's these really awesome, like, lounge areas with fire pits and just places for people to gather, which really kind of aligns itself with some of the stuff that we're planning because we're really trying to focus in on just connecting Rubyists together. So, to me, it feels like the perfect place because I think San Diego is, one, we're a little bit more low key, a little chill. And it's a great place to just gather and connect and share with people that have, you know, similar interests.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, I live in San Diego now, but I was from Washington, D.C., And I would come and visit my family in San Diego once a year. And they would always go on about how great it is and how beautiful, and everyone is so happy and chill. And I was like, sure, whatever. And then we [chuckles] had the opportunity to move here, and now I'm one of those people who says that [laughs]. Like, it's great, especially in November. Everywhere else is getting a little cold and fall. And San Diego has a little bit of fall, but it's still 75 degrees out. I forget what that is in Celsius. But yes, I'm also super excited.
\n\nCHELSEA: We have, like, fake fall activities that you can go do. Like, Allison, when you're talking about doing all the family activities and things like that, you know, this is when we start thinking about, oh, we need to go to, like, the pumpkin patch and apple picking and do all these things, but it's not cold or, like, fall weather at all. So, you want to get all, like, bundled up in your cute fall clothes or, like, put my kids and bundle them up in cute things. But then they're, like, sweating and trying to do [laughs] all these funny activities.
\n\nBut I think that there's so many beautiful things to do here that we, like, try and do these, like, fall activities. But then we just end up at the beach and play in the sand [laughs].
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I will go out in, like, shorts and a T-shirt because it's that kind of weather. And my neighbors will be wearing full puffy jackets and [laughs], like, long pants and a hat. And they're like, "You're not from around here, are you?" [laughs]. It's like, you guys are silly. But it's fun. Yeah, there's seasons, I think, you know, in November...I made a list of suggested activities for my team members since thoughtbot is sponsoring RubyConf this year. And we're going to have a couple of speakers at the event. And we'll have other thoughtboters available at our booth for people to come up and chat with us. So, I'm really thrilled to be hosting everyone.
\n\nAnd I made a list of, like, activities, and most of them were about where to see cool animals [laughs]. I was like, of course, there's the zoo, which is the obvious one, but then there's baby leopard sharks, and there's a season for them. I think they will still be around in November; I'm curious if you know, Chelsea, actually. And then there's, like, the safari parks, and whale watching, and the sea lions at La Jolla and, like, just a bunch of cool animals to see that I think it makes San Diego really special.
\n\nCHELSEA: I agree. The zoo, the safari park are great places to just hang out and see some really cool exhibits. Balboa Park, the museums there are amazing. Liberty Station is one of my favorite places to go; that it's an old historic naval training center that's been converted into an arts and culture area. So, they have, like, little shops. They have...there's museums. There's brew pubs. There's coffee shops. And then there's beautiful, like, grassy areas, and right by the water, it's one of my favorite places to just go and hang out.
\n\nALLISON: This is great. I've done zero research on San Diego so far. So, just, like, I'm writing notes of what things to do and see while I'm there.
\n\nCHELSEA: Yeah, I know the San Diego Ruby group is trying to put together some, like, local events and things that people can gather and do together. I know that there was a talk about doing a taco crawl. I think if I say that on the podcast, it might actually push them to do it because there are some amazing tacos in San Diego to be had.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, I love that taco crawl. I'll reach out to them because I'll help put something like that together. I'm writing a blog post right now about all of these things and about all the other kind of events that are coming up in San Diego this fall. Great location, great time of year to be here. Tell me a little bit more about RubyConf specifically. And what are you all trying to do different this year than in past events?
\n\nALLISON: There are a bunch of things that we're doing differently. Our goal this year with this RubyConf is really to sort of focus on more ways to bring the community together. I think in the last little bit so much excitement around Ruby and Ruby Central and just sort of the community in general. It's a hard time in tech. I think people need to be sort of choosier about sort of what they attend and why they're attending something. And so, we really wanted to help folks connect with each other, help folks get to know other people, help folks sort of reconnect to ways that they love Ruby and the Ruby community and being a Ruby programmer.
\n\nSo, one of the things that we're doing differently is we have a three-day conference. And the way that that sort of broken down is the first day is a Community Day. And the first day is comprised of the workshops, as well as sort of this Hack Day, where people can bring their own projects.
\n\nWe're going to have people there that folks can hack with, sort of open-source projects that folks can work on, all sorts of different stuff. So that people can really sort of get to know one another, work with one another, work with people that they might, you know, admire or have followed in the community for a while, and have that sort of really special experience that doesn't feel as conference-y, right? It feels a little bit more sort of organic in terms of the way that the day will flow and, the options that people have, and sort of what that day looks like.
\n\nAnd then following that, we have two days of sort of RubConf with talks and speakers, et cetera. And I'll let Chelsea add anything to Community Day and then also jump into some of the sort of new and different things we're doing at RubyConf.
\n\nCHELSEA: I agree with Allison in that we've really wanted to focus in on the connection side of things. But I think coming out of the last few years, out of even the last year that's been tough in the industry, just finding ways for people to connect, support, lift up each other, I think that that was something we really wanted to do. And we didn't want it to just be about going and seeing speakers. We wanted to find more ways for people to learn from each other, to connect. And so we added in quite a few of these community connection points.
\n\nSo, on that first day, there's a lot of community aspects to it. We have a lot of learning happening with our workshops and also working on projects, hacking together, showing off what you're working on, connecting with people in the community. It's going to be really focused in on everyone's own skills and talents and coming together and supporting each other in where we're at in our careers, in our learning.
\n\nAnd then, the next couple of days will look a little bit familiar in the way that it is structured with some new aspects kind of woven in. We'll have our Community Room, where we're bringing different community groups together so that people can learn more about what is going on in the community, how they can support, how they can connect.
\n\nAnd in addition to seeing and learning about some of the new things happening in the Ruby community, we'll also have our Career Pathways room again, which will be a place for people to support their own careers. And that room was really set up so that it wasn't just about early career, but also about folks in their mid and senior careers, and finding the advice, finding the resources, finding the mentorship that they might need in whatever stage of their career that they're at, and figuring out how we can together as a community grow as a whole.
\n\nVICTORIA: I really appreciate the focus on community. And, for me, as managing director at thoughtbot, in deciding to invest in which conferences we want to attend and sponsor, we find more value in groups that are trying to bring people together around a common passion and purpose versus a particular product.
\n\nBut I'd like to hear from each of you if you can tell me, what does the community mean to you? And I'm looking for, like, a personal story on how you've benefited or how you've engaged with the Ruby community in the past. And what makes you motivated as CEOs and founders of your own companies [laughs] to spend all this time organizing a conference?
\n\nALLISON: Many, many, many years ago, I did a Rails Girls workshop. It was actually my first introduction into the tech community, into programming in general. And, for me, really, I did Rails Girls. I did not actually expect to like programming. But I was sort of launching a startup, and I wanted to learn more about tech and blah, blah, blah. And at the end of the day, I was, like, so energized and so excited about what I had built and what I had done.
\n\nThe Ruby community in D.C., who I always think is just a group of really special individuals, was so supportive, was so wonderful, was so, like, "Here's where we co-work on Wednesdays. Come to this coffee shop. Here's how you can keep learning," just was so encouraging. You know, I went to the local Ruby meetup sort of really not knowing anything. And they were excited about, you know, newbies being there and asking questions and, you know, really sort of getting to know folks who are just starting out in their programming journey.
\n\nAnd really, through that, I mean, I went to my first RubyConf as a scholar. Was strongly encouraged to do a lightning talk, did a lightning talk. That's how I, you know, sort of ended up having a whole bunch of informational interviews and having conversations with folks. And really, that's how I got my first real job in tech. And so, you know, I want people that are coming into the industry now to have that same support, to have those same opportunities, to have that same encouragement.
\n\nAnd, for me, sort of planning RubyConf, planning these conferences, being a part of Ruby Central is really me giving back to the community that has gotten me to where I am today, right? And it's amazing, also, to just...I'm still in touch with the people that were at my table, sort of guiding and mentoring at that first Rails Girls session or the people who I met at the first-ever Ruby meetup that I went to.
\n\nI still talk to them. I'm still in touch with them. We still get together. I still ask them for, you know, advice and guidance sometimes. And sometimes, they ask me, at this point, for advice and guidance, which is fun. But yeah, it just means so much to me that I have really been able to get to where I'm at because of the support and encouragement of the community.
\n\nCHELSEA: I have a similar story. I guess over, gosh, over a decade ago, I also went to my first RailsBridge and got introduced to the community there at RailsBridge. And, you know, at the time, I wasn't in tech. I was in the theater. I come from the performing arts. I had spent a very long time executive leadership in the theater. And I got introduced to this community that was so warm and welcoming to people wanting to learn and grow. And I was so interested in how communities are built and how people connect together that I started getting more and more involved in the Ruby community here in San Diego.
\n\nAnd just like Allison was saying about the welcoming and warmth that she felt from the D.C. community, I felt the same way here in San Diego. Before that, you know, I had spent so many years being the only woman in a room. I had been in an industry that made me feel like my voice was not always heard. And when I walked into this room, I felt like I mattered. I felt like people wanted to hear what I had to say. And they wanted to learn from my experiences.
\n\nAnd in 2014, San Diego hosted RubyConf here. And at that point, my business partner and I launched our business, LEARN Academy, and it's still running strong today. But it was about creating that on-ramp for people and a launchpad into this industry where they could make a difference and they could have their voice heard. And they could be a part of a conversation, even if they hadn't been a part of that community for many, many years, that their background mattered, that their growth mattered.
\n\nAnd helping people find their voice at a table is something that is so important to me that I love being able to bring that into the planning of this conference, into a lot of the work that I've done with Ruby Central, with LEARN academy. And really just helping people understand that just because you don't have the traditional background, maybe you didn't start programming at the age of two, you can have a different background and a different path and still provide so much value.
\n\nAnd I think that that is the thing that I wanted to continue to be a part of and to make sure was a part of the conversation, that we need so many different types of people at the table. And I want to make sure that our community is responsive to that, that it's inclusive to that, that it's equitable as best we can, and just allows people to share their own experiences. And so, you know, I feel like, for me, we're, you know, almost at our 10-year mark at LEARN academy and that we were launching the company at RubyConf in 2014. To have it here again this year is so special to me.
\n\nI remember being at the conference many years ago; you know, we spend a lot of time helping companies figure out how to work with early-career developers and to create those pipelines for them so that there's career growth for them. And, you know, I remember sitting around the table and just saying, "Hey, who wants an internship? Who wants to, you know, help these early-career developers?" And everyone raised their hand, and we found some of our very first partners at that conference. And it's always been such a warm and welcoming community that has allowed me to feel like I have a voice and then allows me to help other people find theirs.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow, thank you both for sharing that. I totally relate to that feeling of a welcoming community and just getting the sense that, like, wow, everyone who does Ruby is really nice [laughs]. And I think that you know, for me, same as Allison, starting in D.C., there were quite a few people who were involved in Women Who Code who were running Ruby meetups. And that's where I met Valerie Woolard, who I think is also coming to San Diego for RubyConf. I'm excited to see her again.
\n\nAnd it's interesting for me coming from that perspective and hearing that from both of you because I've also heard a viewpoint on Ruby community as being highly opinionated and causing certain amounts of consternation. So, I'm curious if you have any comments on that. If not, otherwise, I'm grateful that there are people working to bring that better community in the community that I'm more familiar with more to the forefront and making it more inclusive and open for everyone.
\n\nSo, to, like, bring the question all the way back, it's like [chuckles], do you have any comments on, like, if there's a tendency for Rubyists to be really highly opinionated? Or what else can we do to make it more open and inclusive for people to join the community?
\n\nCHELSEA: I mean, I think that people are going to be opinionated about something that they care a lot about. And I think that the thing that I've noticed in the Ruby community is people love this language. They love programming in this language, and I think that there's something very powerful about that. And it does, you know, lend itself to people [laughs] having very strong opinions about what they think needs to be out there.
\n\nAnd, to me, it's not a matter of, like, whether we have strong opinions or not. It has more to do with whether we're listening or not. But I think it's really important for those of us who are leading to be the listeners, and that we should be there to make sure that there is space for people to be heard, whether their opinion is loud or not. And I think that there are people that are going to be louder than others; that is going to be true no matter where we go.
\n\nBut I think that as long as there is intention around making sure that we are listening to even the quietest voices and that we are creating space for the quietest voices, that's where we're going to find more collaboration. But if we're only going out there and saying, "This is the way it needs to be," and we're not willing to listen to anything else, then I think that growth will stop happening because we need to listen to everyone. We need to be able to create some kind of place for people to come together and share ideas; you know, you don't get the perspectives of all these amazing people in the industry.
\n\nSo, that's why I feel like, you know, I've been on the board at Ruby Central for about a year now, and the biggest thing that I feel like I can contribute is to simply listen. If I can help in any way of filtering ideas or creating connections with people because I've been putting my ear to the ground and saying, "Okay, these people are talking about this, and we're expanding here." And we just want to make sure that we're doing the best we can at being open to all different kinds of ideas and not closing anyone off.
\n\nMaybe your opinion is really strong. It doesn't mean that we should shut you down. It just means that we need to make sure that there's space for other people, too. And I think that that's the part that, you know, as someone who has always been a bit of an introvert, a bit of a wallflower, I understand how hard it is to get my voice out there. And so, I often fight for the quiet people. I think in every language and any space where it's a craft, it's something that we're creating, people get really passionate about it. And that's going to happen. And I think there's something powerful in that because there's going to be change that happens from that.
\n\nBut if we're not doing our part in the listening and making sure that there isn't just one voice, that there's a collective voice, that's the part that I felt so powerful when I joined the community so many years ago was that, even though I had, you know, months of experience, my questions mattered. And as long as we hold on to that, the community will continue to grow.
\n\nBut those of us at Ruby Central and some of the other organizations, if we're creating space to allow people to question, allow people to speak their opinions and listen, then I think that the industry, the community will just continue to thrive because of that. But we have to be open, and we have to be compassionate when we're doing our listening.
\n\nALLISON: Yeah, I agree with all of that. And I would just add in safe places, in a way that we're creating sort of safe structures and safe places for folks to communicate.
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\n\nVICTORIA: What, if you could tell me, what does Ruby really have going for it? Like what makes Ruby a good choice for tech founders or for new companies would make someone decide they want to build with Ruby?
\n\nALLISON: First, it's a little bit about just sort of the ease of the language to jump into and to understand, right? There's a lot that you can get done very quickly with Ruby and Rails. And in addition to sort of individuals being able to work in it, there's a whole community of resources, and support, and podcasts, and tutorials, and all sorts of stuff.
\n\nI know that as an engineering leader at any company, when engineers are coming to me with, like, the desire to use a new language or try something new, part of what I look at is, if I'm going to hire, like, what would hiring look like? What does it look like for engineers to have to ramp up in this area? How long does that take? What resources are available? What sort of community am I pulling from and looking at? And that's both community in terms of sort of technical experience, expertise, years, et cetera, but also non-technical skills, right? What does the community look like in terms of some of those ideals around communication, collaboration, just sort of general pieces like that?
\n\nAnd so, I think that, given sort of the strength of open source, strength of community, community contributions, ways to contribute, etcetera, I think that's one of the reasons that it still makes Ruby a really strong choice for folks to build in and to work with.
\n\nVICTORIA: What type of people, what personas do you think will be the most interested in attending RubyConf? Is it all just going to be, like, senior or super Ruby developers, or what?
\n\nCHELSEA: Oh, I don't think so. I mean, this RubyConf, in particular, is great for anyone on a learning journey. We've worked really hard to make sure there's a good breadth of programming for different folks in different stages of their careers. I think that, you know, those of you that are maybe earlier on there, this is a great opportunity to meet people who are maybe even a step or two ahead of you. I think that the best mentorship that you can find is someone who is only maybe a year ahead of you because they're going to recognize where you're at and help you along the way. And I think that there's a lot of opportunities here for that.
\n\nI think that with our Community Day, the hacking that's going to be involved, like, maybe, as a new developer, you wouldn't be able to come in and, like, get your hands really dirty. But you'll get to sit next to somebody who has been through all the different stages and get to watch, and explore, and learn. I think that making those connections could be really great for anyone's career. I think that our mid-level developers, folks that are our management, there's great resources for them to connect with other developers in similar stages. There's great workshops.
\n\nBecause of our focus on the community, I think that it's going to be a place where you can really connect with other Rubyists. And so, if you are at a stage in your career that you want to figure out what that next spring is, where that next ladder step is, this is a good place to see all the different options because you're going to be surrounded by people in all different stages of their careers.
\n\nAnd what we've, I think, said now quite a few times is so many people there are just so excited to help people continue that growth. And so, I think that no matter what stage you're in, you're going to find people there that are excited to help you along the way.
\n\nThat being said, I think for our more senior, more advanced, our executive leadership, this is going to be a great place to, one, meet some really great talent, and, two, I think, learn from other folks in the industry of, like, where people are at, what we're struggling with, and how we're changing and doing things differently.
\n\nSo, I really do think there's going to be a little bit of everything for people. And what I love about that is really that it gets to the core and heart of the Ruby community because we're so excited about new folks coming in that that growth continues, that you have folks like Allison who started out as a scholar and want to give back.
\n\nAnd then because we have folks at all those different stages, you can find people that are, you know, maybe a step or two ahead of you that are going to be able to help bring you up to that next level. So, I think it's an exciting opportunity for people to really meet new people, learn some new things, maybe find a little bit of encouragement, empowerment on where you're going to go next on your career.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, absolutely. And it reminds me of an article I read while I was at RailsConf earlier this year about why we do conferences and what's the whole point. And, you know, for me, all of those things are true, like, all those values. As an executive, I'm going to meet a lot of great talent. I'm going to connect with other companies. I'm just going to get to show up and say hi to people and ask them questions in a way that's very informal. And that's so valuable to have that.
\n\nI think where I was going to go next with this was with Ruby Central, which I believe organizes both RailsConf and RubyConf. (And you can correct me if I'm wrong on that.) I'm curious if there are anything else you want to talk about with, like how the community can engage in support and how other companies could get involved with the community and show their support.
\n\nCHELSEA: I think that there's quite a few different ways for folks to get involved. We are currently recruiting board members. We just finished a round just now. But I know that in our planning, that we're likely going to bring on at least one, maybe two more, in the next six months. So, I definitely...for folks in the community that want to get involved, that is a really great place to really get involved with Ruby Central.
\n\nWe also have a really strong open-source community. And we're working, oh gosh, with quite a few different companies now that are really helping to support our open-source efforts. And those are also good ways to get involved. You know, we do plan both RailsConf and RubyConf. RailsConf will be in the spring again. And, you know, it takes a village to put on a conference like this and that, you know, we also look for programming committee members to help us shape the program of the conferences. So, if you are interested in any of that, that's also another great way to get involved in the community.
\n\nWe have an amazing programming committee that's helped us with RubyConf. And I'm excited to see what we do next with RailsConf. And I think that you know if you're one that's going to the conference and are saying, "Man, I wish that they would do this," or "I wish I could see that," come and talk to us because that's the best way for us to learn, that we want to hear all of those pieces. But don't be surprised if we then send you an email and say, "Hey, you want to be on our programming committee with us?"
\n\nALLISON: I'll add that we also, through our website, we take donations. So, if you want to help monetarily, there's the option to do that on the website. And if you're a company, I mean, we're always looking for conference sponsorships. But if your company also is interested in getting involved in sort of more of a corporate sense of sponsoring or supporting Ruby Central, we are always open to those conversations. You can send an email to contact@rubycentral.org.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. I have a fun question about the conference because I'm leading the event with thoughtbot since I live here. And I'm thinking about some fun swag to give away. Rank your preferences on what kind of swag you'd like to see at the thoughtbot sponsor booth: a thoughtbot-branded surfboard or, a boogie board, a bucket hat, or a pickleball paddle. Any of those interesting for you?
\n\nALLISON: Wait, when you say surfboard, like, how am I going to get a surfboard back to D.C.?
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nVICTORIA: Okay. I think it's, like, kind of funny because if you win it, it's like, well, what do you do? [laughter] You got to shake it back. That sounds like maybe a boogie board.
\n\nCHELSEA: Yeah, I'm down for a boogie board.
\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you so [laughs] much for entertaining me on that one. Is there anything else that you would like to promote today?
\n\nALLISON: We would love to see everybody at RubyConf. You can register. Check out the program speakers, et cetera, at rubyconf.org. You can learn more about Ruby Central at rubycentral.org. Those are, I think, the two things that we'd love to make sure everybody knows about.
\n\nCHELSEA: And if you're here in San Diego, come say hello.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, I have met up with a few random people from the internet [laughs] who have said like, "I'm in San Diego. Who should I say hi [inaudible 34:02]?" I was like, "Me, me, me," [laughter]. So, yes, I'm very happy to meet up for drinks. Chelsea, you and I will have to get together sometime soon before the conference. And I'm super excited for RubyConf. And thank you both so much for being here today.
\n\nALLISON: Thanks for having us.
\n\nCHELSEA: Thank you.
\n\nVICTORIA: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantsrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.
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Dawn Delatte, Vendela Colavecchio, and Jordyn Bonds interview Ashley Sheble, the Founder of AvidFirst, about her experiences and progress in thoughtbot's Incubator Program, which aims to help founders like Ashley turn an idea into a viable product.
\n\nThe discussion covers various aspects of the program, including the evolution of the product idea, insights gained from industry conferences, the importance of listening to customers, and the ongoing development of the go-to-market strategy. Everyone emphasizes the value of the Incubator Program in helping founders connect with their market and refine their strategy.
\n\nJust catching up? Listen to Part I, Part 2, and Part 3 of the Mini Incubator Series!
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nDAWN: Hello, everyone. So, since we have a bigger crew here today, slightly bigger crew, we should just jump right in, right?
\n\nIf you're not familiar with thoughtbot, we're a design and development consultancy who create and build products from the very earliest stages.
\n\nWe are currently in our second incubator session. This is actually our final week. We're wrapping up this week our second program with Ashley at AvidFirst. And I'll let everybody go around and say hi and give a little intro.
\n\nToday, we're going to be chatting about how the program has been going, any new recent activity, and things that we've learned and done, and, you know, what's going to happen here after the session ends.
\n\nI'm Dawn. I am a Managing Director here at thoughtbot. And I will shoot it over to you, Ashley.
\n\nASHLEY: Thanks, Dawn. And my name is Ashley Sheble. I'm the CEO and Founder of AvidFirst. AvidFirst is really focused on helping people save and spend for college in a modern way. We're simplifying the process, modernizing the experience, and really, with the end goal of helping families avoid student debt.
\n\nSo, I've been working with the thoughtbot team for the past eight weeks, really refining our strategy, and we'll talk about this here in a minute. But pivoting a little bit on the strategy just based on what we learn from the market from talking to users, from talking to experts, from talking to people with just insight around what's needed in the space. And so I'm excited to share more about the past eight weeks.
\n\nDAWN: Awesome. Thank you. Jordyn, do you want to hop in?
\n\nJORDYN: Sure. I'm Jordyn Bonds. And I'm the Director of Product Strategy on the Ignite team. And I am a two-time former co-founder of tech startups, so whence I come to this work. Vendela, I'll let you go.
\n\nVENDELA: I'm Vendela Colavecchio. I'm the Design Director on our team here running the incubators at thoughtbot. And yeah, should I talk about my role on the incubator [chuckles] more?
\n\nI guess the incubator is sort of funny because, you know, as a designer, typically, my tasks fall under more of a traditional design category. But I think with the incubator, we're, like, all hands on deck, just trying to get lots of things done and help out in any way that we can. So, definitely some design things, but also just a bunch of participating in discussions and getting all sorts of tasks done.
\n\nDAWN: I'm sure we'll dive more into that. As usual, though, we're going to let Ashley kick us off, kick our discussion off with a little bit of an update on what's been going on in these past two weeks since we last chatted and, you know, where we are now.
\n\nASHLEY: Yeah. So, the past couple of weeks have been pretty exciting. I went to an industry conference. It was a 529 and ABLE conference. So, 529s are tax-advantaged savings accounts specific for education expenses. ABLE accounts are tax-advantaged savings accounts, specifically for people who have a disability. And so, spent a week learning from experts in both spaces, hearing from all the different stakeholders, so state agencies, program distributors, you name it, every sort of stakeholder in the whole industry was there. And it was amazing to just be able to go in and learn and meet people and hear their perspectives around what's going well, what's not going well.
\n\nIt could not have been more well timed because I think had the conference been earlier, I might not have been ready to ask the right questions from the different stakeholders. And had the conference been later, well, we couldn't have used any of that insight and learning to continue working on refining or pivoting the project. So, it was a great experience. People were so collaborative, so helpful.
\n\nI think it's interesting that my perspective going in was, oh, people aren't going to want to talk to me. They're not going to want to share their insight. But it was quite the opposite. People were really happy to talk about what they thought could be improved or what they thought seemed to be going well. But it's only from one perspective. So, if you start asking questions around what you've learned from other people's perspectives, you kind of see this, like, aha moment. Like, oh, I hadn't thought about that before. Maybe that's something to consider. So, it was an amazing experience.
\n\nSo, as a result of that particular event last week, have really been synthesizing what we learned, filling in any gaps. And then just using that to think about a different strategy based on kind of the signals in the room, what people were really excited about, and what people really thought needed some work versus what we went into the conference thinking was the right answer, if that makes sense.
\n\nDAWN: That's so exciting. Can you tell us more about this pivot? You mentioned a pivot.
\n\nASHLEY: Yeah. And I wouldn't call it maybe a full pivot. I would say it's more an expansion on the work we've already done, which is good. So, we're not just throwing away all the work we've done for the past seven weeks and saying, "Forget it."
\n\nThere are a lot of parallels in the 529 space and the ABLE space. A lot of the stakeholders are the same, and it's just a different target market with a little bit different need set. And so, really trying to understand what the differences are, and what the similarities are, and how we can replicate the work that we've already done for one space in the other space, and then build upon that a lot more rapidly than it took us to build the initial work for the 529.
\n\nSo, there's definitely some advantages that the two industries are really intertwined. But at the same time, there are some differences that we need to be keenly aware of and making sure that we're solving a problem meaningfully.
\n\nDAWN: Jordyn and Vendela, how has this, not pivot, but new expansion or new strategy, how has this affected your work?
\n\nVENDELA: What I'm thinking about on sort of a meta-level is how it's exciting to see that this new angle doesn't really change how we would approach the problem in terms of just running the incubator. So, it's almost, not in a discouraging way, but it's almost just like starting back from week one and kind of going through, what do we know? What do we need to find out? What kind of questions do we need to ask stakeholders, et cetera?
\n\nAnd just seeing how having done that already together it makes it pretty clear what the path forward would be in terms of the process. In terms of information, who knows what we'll find out? But I think that's been exciting. The pivot doesn't feel so scary as it might sound [laughs].
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, I would just build on that to say that it's giving us this really awesome opportunity to immediately run the same process that we just ran but, like, to see how much we've learned from doing it the first time. It's like you're starting over, but you're starting over from a better place, right? With more skills, way more understanding of sort of what's important and what's not important.
\n\nAnd, you know, once you've run the process at least once, no part of it feels daunting, right? It just feels like work you know how to do, so it's like, okay, this is a really interesting additional sort of adjacent opportunity. We need to very quickly itemize all the things we don't know about it, and then figure out how to learn about it. Is it research? Is it interviewing? Is it testing? But none of those things feels unknown, right? It just feels like you get to do it faster and better.
\n\nThis is, like, a thing, you kind of can't convince someone without them having done it. And a lot of folks come to us, come to thoughtbot with a product idea. And we tell them like, "Okay, let's get in there and validate and invalidate things." And they're, like, "Invalidate? [vocalization] I don't want to invalidate my awesome, precious product idea [laughs]." And what we know that they don't know is that there are pieces that we're going to validate and pieces we're going to invalidate, but always you uncover new opportunities in that process. And you're just better and better at ascertaining what's promising about those things.
\n\nSo, it's only upside, but it feels like we're asking them to let go of something or to lose something, right? There's a feeling of like, it's like a scary...it's a feeling of like, I've built something, a tiny thing of value here, and you're asking me to risk that. And that couldn't be further from the truth. But it's, like, a really hard thing to convince someone until you've done it once. So, it's very fun, anyway, that we're getting to do this within one incubator cycle. Usually, it's, you know, it doesn't happen that quickly.
\n\nASHLEY: I like how you qualified that as fun. I will say...and Vendela and I were talking yesterday, and we were going through the sprints around, not starting over but beginning at the beginning with this new angle. And I was having the emotional rollercoaster of, like, what are we doing? Oh my gosh. And then, oh my gosh, this is so exciting. And then, oh my gosh, what are we doing?
\n\nI feel very equipped now, having gone through this process once, to have the tools, the skills, the mindset to know, okay, it's part of the process. Here's what's going to happen. Here's what we'll probably learn. And just have a very structured way of approaching a new idea or a new angle, versus feeling like just thrown into the deep end and trying to figure out how to swim or which way is up. So, that's been pretty encouraging and eye-opening, too, that I developed all these skills that I didn't realize I had developed till we started redoing this, which is exciting.
\n\nDAWN: I love that. It's kind of a testament to how valuable time spent is and how important it is to become really, like, more efficient with this process and the value of sort of rapidly being able to validate or invalidate different assumptions. I imagine that this might be a little bit different than what you expected. As Jordyn was saying, [laughs] most founders don't, you know, expect to have to loosen the grip on specific ideas. So, now that you're at week eight, how has this experience been overall for you?
\n\nASHLEY: It's been incredible. First of all, just the talented team that has been working on this project with me, I cannot say enough good, nice, positive things about that. I've heard horror stories about people working with teams that there's just a lot of dissension. There's lack of trust, all those things. And we had none of that, which is incredible. So, I feel very fortunate to have been with the team that I was with.
\n\nI will also say that everybody had different strengths. And so, we're looking at an opportunity or a problem from a different lens in four ways, which is amazing because then you can cover so much more ground so much more quickly. I will also say, too, just the process: the thoughtbot program has for the eight-week structure is so intentional because sometimes I would think, well, wouldn't it make sense to do this thing before this thing? But just trusted the process, and the process was right.
\n\nSo, I would just say anybody that's thinking about going through the incubator or goes through the incubator next, just trust the process because you guys have a portfolio of success. You know what you're doing. I'm a testament to just really endorse the fact that each step is necessary in getting to the next step in a successful way. So, you're not taking two steps forward, one step back. You're constantly making forward progress.
\n\nDAWN: That's awesome. What about you, Vendela, and Jordyn, how has this program and this session been this time around?
\n\nVENDELA: I can talk about my experience as the first time going through the incubator, and then maybe, Jordyn, you have some insight on comparing the two or how you think it went in general.
\n\nBut I think one thing that has been really fun to do and participate in, and to Ashley's point about kind of having this environment of trust and just counting on each other that we're all distilling the information that we're hearing, I guess, accurately or in a way that aligns with how the rest of the team would perceive these things, is that we've had these really cool moments of not feeling like we 100% with complete certainty know exactly how something looks, but being creative about how we might get closer to that point.
\n\nSo, hearing a few tidbits here and there, thinking of ways that we're reading between the lines and interpreting that, and thinking about how we can narrow who we're talking to or approach the conversation slightly differently, so adjusting our script, or running some kind of other experiment, or structure things differently. And then, we might find that that angle wasn't exactly right, but by pursuing that angle, we learned something new that actually did get us closer in some way. And I think a lot of that was subtle throughout the process.
\n\nBut now, just thinking about this new kind of topic or pivot, whatever you want to call it [laughs], that we're pursuing, I think that lesson is going to be really valuable for Ashley moving forward, too, and just thinking, okay, I feel like what we're trying now isn't getting any closer. What have I heard that I could just grab, like, a small piece of string and pull on it, and see where that goes, and unravel something, and hopefully learn something new? So that there's just consistent kind of learning and not feeling like you're just totally blocked at any point.
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, to build on that a little bit, there's a real quality with this early work of just starting with what you have, where you are. And, you know, you don't have everything you need, like, you just don't, not in life and certainly not in [laughs] startup land. But the question is, like, figuring out what you need and figuring out how to get that from where you are. And that might be validation of a hypothesis you have, or it might be resources that you need that you don't have yet.
\n\nAnd so, a lot of the work that we did together is to identify those things and to figure out ways to get them. And it's a real creative process because every problem is different. It's why it's really hard to talk about the programming in a specific way. It's like, you know, broadly, we're driving at the same outcomes every time. But every problem space, every industry requires a kind of different set of approaches, and, to me, that's really fun.
\n\nIt's like, okay, imagine as a metaphor, you know, that you are dropped from a helicopter into a jungle in Central America versus into Mongolia. Like, what you're going to need to survive in those two [laughs] environments is probably going to be pretty different, right? But that doesn't mean that your strategy for figuring those things out is going, like, the tactics you employ will be different. Yeah, I'm glad to hear, Vendela; that was a fun aspect of this.
\n\nAnd sort of jumping off from that point, what was different this time? It's always different running this program. And every time, there's something new and different. But this was the first time we've run it with a FinTech product, and just learning about that ecosystem, the players, and the complex landscape of incentives and motivations, et cetera, was just, like, there was a steep learning curve for us at the beginning. And it was just super interesting and helpful to sift through that.
\n\nIt was like being, you know, dropped from a helicopter into a new sort of ecosystem. And we were like, all right, like, which berries are poisonous here? I don't know. But I also know that I need to eat something to survive [laughs]. So, it's like those kinds of questions, which is just super interesting.
\n\nAnd then, what it always causes me to do is look at my own network anew. So, often, we find ourselves talking about, like, this question of starting with where you are with what you have. That includes with the network you have and the people you know. And it really depends on the problem you're solving, who you tap for what questions, right? And, suddenly, like, every one of these that we run, I get to turn to my own network. And I find new reasons to talk to different people about different things in my own network, which is really fun.
\n\nIt's like it allows me to get to know people in my own life in a new way. Like, every time this happens like, one of the first things we do is we turn to our own networks. Like, who do we know that has this problem or works in this industry, whatever? But having never worked on a FinTech product before, I didn't really need to do that with this lens. And it's like a whole new set of people lit up for me, and I got to have really interesting conversations with them. So, that was one thing that was different and really kind of fun.
\n\nASHLEY: It's funny to hear your take on the FinTech complexity because I feel like every time Vendela, or Jordyn, or Dave, who's not here, would ask me a question, it was, well, here's the answer, but if this, then that, or if this other thing, then that. It was never just a straightforward answer.
\n\nAnd I was like, oh my gosh, they're just going to throw their hands up in the air at some point, but never did. They were just like, cool, that's fine. We'll figure out these different pathways, and if this, then we'll do that, and if this other thing, then we'll do this other thing. And I was just blown away by how nimble the team was and willing to just embrace the complexity. So, that, for me, was a huge positive. I don't know if you'll ever want to work in a FinTech product again; maybe yes, maybe no.
\n\nDAWN: I would argue that we're more prepared now. You know, we've done a lot of FinTech work in the past, but applying this framework to understanding it as quickly as the team needed to, I'm sure, sort of pushed everybody farther, faster. So, Dave --
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, I should say that was specific to me. thoughtbot has done plenty of FinTech work, Jordyn has not. But also, to your point, Ashley, like, I would love to actually. Now I'm like, oh okay, I kind of understand where the opportunities are here. I feel more prepared now rather than, like, more daunted.
\n\nASHLEY: Well, and you have a huge network in the FinTech space. So, that was something that was hugely helpful to me was talking with other founders who have been successful in the FinTech space, or people who have exited and had a great experience, or maybe people who have exited for, you know, reasons they didn't choose. But it was so important to hear from all those different perspectives and say, okay, here's what I would want to replicate, what I would definitely want to avoid. And so, anyways, just the network that Jordyn and others had and were willing to share with me was so valuable.
\n\nDAWN: I was going to quickly shout out to Dave, who was sick this morning and wasn't able to make it. We were going to have him join. He was the senior developer in this sort of product pod that you've been working with. And I'm sure he has some interesting, more technical perspective to share. He did write a blog post, I think, maybe after week four, that I'm sure has some of those insights in it for folks who might be interested in reading from a developer's perspective. Yes, this is all wonderful to hear.
\n\nI am curious to know what's next for AvidFirst.
\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, continuing on. There are a couple of things to pilot. And so, that's really the next step, pilot MVP as we think about this new angle. Because we want to make sure that the solution in mind is actually the solution that's needed. And so, those are the next steps, and then capital raise and then off to the races. So, if there's anybody listening that is interested in teaming up or wants to talk or contribute, would love to have a chat.
\n\nDAWN: Is there anything that we can help with, anything on your mind, more network connections? [laughs]
\n\nASHLEY: Oh, gosh, offhand, I feel like I would be over-asking at this point because you guys have been beyond helpful. I really think the framework that I have to work with going forward—the team helped build a plan for here's what to do next, here's what to do after that, and here's what to do after that—is really setting me up for success as I think about continuing this journey without the amazing team day in, day out.
\n\nJORDYN: Well, you have us as a team for life now, sorry. So, anytime you need something, [laughs] you can call.
\n\nVENDELA: I was going to say I hope that you stick around in our Slack channel and update us on what's going on because now we're super invested, and we definitely want to hear how you're doing.
\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, absolutely.
\n\nDAWN: Vendela and Jordyn, we've got another application window happening right now about to close for the next incubator session. Who should apply? What should they expect?
\n\nJORDYN: Anybody with a business idea that involves software. The earlier, the better. And a lot of people, you know, come to us and are like, "Well, I have this idea that I'm kicking around for years in my head, but I haven't done anything yet. You know, what do I have to do to apply?" And we're like, "Sounds good. Apply."
\n\nAnd then, other folks who are a little later, you know, and they feel like maybe they've hit some doldrums with an idea that they've explored a little bit. But they need a little bit of sort of reinvigorating and, you know, like a spark to get going on it. That's also a good time. We're really sort of excited to hear everybody's ideas. And the only, you know, downside is that we get more applications than folks we can work with. And there's always, like, a lot of great stuff in there. But everyone is encouraged to apply.
\n\nYou know, we used to have somewhat of a, like, non-technical founder. And when we first started, that was kind of the premise was, like, if you're a non-technical founder, we'll be your technical founding team. But I think we're finding that we kind of round out any skill sets in a way. If you bring a technical background, we can help you with the sales, and the marketing, and the business strategy. And if you come with those things, we can help you with the product and the technology strategy. It's the early-stage work, and the early-stage work is the early-stage work, regardless of your background. We can help fill in those gaps.
\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, I'll just add, too, I came in with this pitch check. I'm like, I'm ready to go, you know, we just need to build this thing. And, wow, the idea has changed so much since eight weeks ago. And so, I would just say, too, like, be open to feedback, be open to where the experience takes you. Even if you do have a really well-researched idea, there's always opportunity for improvement based on what the market says.
\n\nAnd the market is constantly changing. And customer needs are constantly changing. And so, if you're not evolving with that experience, then you're going to get left behind or build a product for no one or, you know, a product for everyone is really a product for no one also. So, being open to the team's input and process is just invaluable no matter what stage somebody is coming into this with.
\n\nJORDYN: That makes me just so happy to hear. And I will add that, like, I cannot stress enough that mostly what this program is for is to help folks connect with their market. Like, we actually don't want you to listen to us. We want you to listen to your customer all day, every day. How can you make sure you're moving with those folks, evolving with them, speaking their language, addressing the pain points that they have? Because that's why you're doing this, not because of what you think alone or what we think as your product pod. It's really what the market is doing and what your customer base is doing, and thinking, and feeling.
\n\nAnd really, the programming is sort of geared toward helping people understand how to do that work. Like, you might conceptually understand that you need to do that. As a first-time founder, I certainly, you know, I had read the blogs, man. I knew I needed to be, like, customer-centric or whatever. But, like, I didn't really actually know how to do that. And once I did talk to some folks, it was a whole other new skill set to figure out how to listen for the things that mattered in what they were saying to me, right?
\n\nTranslating, you know, what folks are telling you and how they talk about their life and their work into product opportunities and innovation, it's a whole skill set that I, even coming into this work, you know, as a first-time founder with the background I had, I didn't have that skill set. You know, most people sitting out there would not argue, like, of course, you need to listen to your customer and move with the market, et cetera. But the question of, like, how to operationalize that [laughs], you know, is a completely opaque thing sometimes. Even for folks who have, like, done it before somewhat, it can still remain challenging.
\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, I feel in a better position now to continue keeping pace with the market. Because if you look at FinTech, historically, there were major innovations every ten years, and then that pace changed to every couple of years, and then it changed to every one year. And now you're seeing FinTech innovation accelerated to every few months; the landscape is different. And so, the solution today may need to be different in six months, or three months, something like that. But I feel like I have the tools now to keep up with that pace of change, whereas before, I would have been left behind. So, I feel really grateful for that. Thank you.
\n\nDAWN: That warms my heart. We do have a question. So, does thoughtbot help with go-to-market strategy, or is the incubator more focused on zero to MVP?
\n\nJORDYN: You know, I'm full of very spicy takes. Spicy take here: you're always going to market. Zero to MVP is different than go-to-market? I'm sorry, how? So, the answer is, like, absolutely. And really, what you're doing is perennially going to the market [laughs]. You're making a go-to-market strategy. You're keeping that fresh. You're keeping it new in the same way that you're keeping your products and technology strategy fresh and new, given what you're learning and what you're hearing.
\n\nSo, absolutely, I would say that's actually primarily what the incubator is for [laughs], and then making sure that those strategies are aligned. So, like, one of the things that I've seen in my own work at multiple startups, not just my own, is that those things can become disconnected as your team grows because people have different backgrounds and different...they just have a different focus, right? Your head of marketing has a different focus than your head of product and has a different focus than your head of technology.
\n\nAnd keeping all of those strategically aligned and focused on the same customer and the same problem set is a lot of the work of an early-stage startup. And that's, like, a lot of the work that we kind of help founders figure out how to do. How do you tie your go-to-market to your MVP? Like, how do those two things fit in together, right? And how do you keep them in sync? It's not merely like you do this one time and then everyone goes their separate ways [laughs], and in 18 months, you meet back again and have a conversation about it, like, [laughs] not how this works. So, I mean, absolutely.
\n\nVENDELA: I would add to that, too; I think something that we talk about with all these types of projects is just...and, internally, we talk about this a lot, too, like, we kind of hate the term MVP because it's so ambiguous really. Like, what does that mean for any given product? And so, I think, to your point, Jordyn, like, the going to market and the MVP are so tied together because the whole point of an MVP is to learn something so that you can then bring it from a minimum viable product to something more than that.
\n\nAnd we talk a lot with founders about different approaches to MVP. I think some people have maybe a narrow view of what they can be. It's this, you know, maybe slightly lower fidelity but coded custom thing. And there's lots of ways to approach it that don't fit that definition and maybe would work better as a way to experiment and learn something, and then create a new version later on. So, you know, with that first version, you can still go to market, but you're learning something, and then you're maybe building a new MVP after that. And so, making sure that that's not too precious or hard to throw away is something, I think, we tell everybody, too.
\n\nDAWN: Yes, that's great. Cool. Well, I think it's about time for us to wrap up. Thank you so much, Ashley. It's always an honor to kind of watch the team work with different founders and see them sort of learning as they go and seeing the product and the opportunities evolve. And it's been really great to be able to participate a little bit more this time and chatting with you and hearing about how things are going.
\n\nI'm happy to hear that there was a lot of opportunity for you to continue exploring with AvidFirst. And we'll be here, so please [laughs] come to us as much as possible. Everybody is really excited to see, you know, you and this thing be successful. So, thank you, Vendela and Jordyn, as always, for being a wonderful team.
\n\nIf you're interested in applying to the incubator, do it. Don't hesitate. You can always visit thoughtbot.com/incubator for more information. And thanks for tuning in.
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\n\nMore info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.
Special Guests: Ashley Sheble, Dawn Delatte, Jordyn Bonds, and Vendela Colavecchio.
","summary":"Dawn Delatte, Vendela Colavecchio, and Jordyn Bonds interview Ashley Sheble, the Founder of AvidFirst, about her experiences and progress in thoughtbot's Incubator Program, which aims to help founders like Ashley turn an idea into a viable product. \r\n\r\nThe discussion covers various aspects of the program, including the evolution of the product idea, insights gained from industry conferences, the importance of listening to customers, and the ongoing development of the go-to-market strategy. Everyone emphasizes the value of the Incubator Program in helping founders connect with their market and refine their strategy.","date_published":"2023-11-01T00:45:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/f8604f7e-6577-459c-947a-6e8d29496edc.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":29723201,"duration_in_seconds":1703}]},{"id":"8e1e5d51-e60b-4493-8d4e-4af819291e80","title":"thoughtbot's Incubator Program Mini Season - Episode 03: AvidFirst with Ashley Sheble","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/incubatormini3","content_text":"Dawn Delatte and Jordyn Bonds interview Ashley Sheble, the Founder of AvidFirst, about her experiences and progress in thoughtbot's Incubator Program, which aims to help founders like Ashley turn an idea into a viable product. \n\nIn the third part of the Mini Incubator Series, they talk about user interviews, data analysis, and prototyping to validate ideas. They emphasize the importance of being open to user signals and adjusting their approach accordingly. They also discuss the upcoming weeks of the program and the goal of refining their story and business strategy.\n\nJust catching up? Listen to Part I and Part 2 of the Mini Incubator Series!\n\n\n\n\nFollow Ashley Sheble on LinkedIn.\nFollow thoughtbot on X or LinkedIn.\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nDAWN: Thanks, everybody, for joining. We're glad that you're here. If you've tuned in before, great, welcome back. You're probably familiar with thoughtbot; if you're not, we're a product design and development consultancy that helps make you, and your team, and your product successful. \n\nWe are currently running the second session of our incubator program, which is an eight-week program that takes you through a lot of different activities and exercises to help you identify market and product opportunities, experiment with them, and ideally come up with a solution that you can move forward with. \n\nI'm Dawn. I'm a Managing Director here at thoughtbot. And I lead a team that works with very early-stage products, and founders, and companies. And I'll hand it over to Jordyn.\n\nJORDYN: I'm Jordyn Bonds, and I'm the Director of Product Strategy on Dawn's team. And I'm kind of the...I don't know what, founder in residence for the incubator trying to bring my experience as a former founder to bear for our participants, in this case, Ashley.\n\nASHLEY: Okay, my name is Ashley Sheble. I'm the CEO and founder of AvidFirst and have been working with Jordyn and a great team in the second incubator session. So, removing all bias from the statement I'm about to say, but if anybody's thinking about applying to the next incubator, just do it. It's an amazing experience. You're going to learn so much. There are so many smart, helpful people who really care about building cool products that make a difference. And so, do it.\n\nDAWN: I love it. Thanks for the impromptu promo. \n\nJORDYN: Yeah, thank you [laughs]. It's good to hear. \n\nDAWN: Yeah, I'm excited. Cool. Well, Ashley, why don't you maybe kick us off with a little bit of a recap of these past two weeks? What have y'all been working on?\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, so, just for a little background, in case anybody hasn't been following along, AvidFirst is a technology company aimed at simplifying college saving and spending. Our goal is really to make 529 accounts more usable broadly and then, more specifically, attractive to next-gen consumers. \n\nAnd for those who aren't familiar with 529 plans, that's okay because neither are about 70% of Americans. But essentially, they are college savings vehicles. They're investment accounts that allow people to contribute money. The money grows tax-free and then can be withdrawn tax-free when used for qualified education expenses. \n\nAnd over the past few years, the term qualified education expense has really expanded from beyond just tuition and fees to room and board on and off campus, computers, technology, supplies, apprenticeships, K through 12, like, the list is getting longer and longer. And so, our goal is just to really help simplify a really complex system and savings vehicle to make them more appealing and attractive to people. \n\nSo, the past few weeks, specifically, we have been aggregating all the data from our user interviews. We've done a lot of user interviews with different stakeholders and have been taking the information and saying, okay, what do we do next? How do we validate the way we're thinking about solving this problem will actually solve the problem in the way that we think it will? And so, through lots of process mapping, brainstorming different pilot initiatives, and then now working through some of the nuances of the industry. The 529 industry, specifically, is a complex animal. I don't really know how else to explain it. It's very complex. And so, we are just navigating these complexities and looking for solutions that will truly simplify the complexity. \n\nJORDYN: I will just dig in a little bit to that analysis of the interviews that we've been conducting. That analysis kind of, like, stepped up a notch in the last week in a really fun way where we, the team, really kind of dug into the dynamics of each interview, sort of the things that we're most curious about, and have been asking and really, like, scored each interview. And then did sort of a cohort analysis, like, where are the trends with which personas? \n\nWe had already had some intuitions, and we just wanted to confirm with the data that we weren't deluding ourselves about what the direction was. So, that was a really, like, I think it was a really useful exercise and kind of fun to see. And what doing that helps with is our own conviction, but then it also helps us make sure that we are honing who we're talking to going forward. \n\nTalking to folks is, like, so critical and is so not scalable. It is so time-consuming [laughs]. So, you want to make sure that you're doing it really strategically. So, it's sort of, like, every wave of interviews we do, we do a little more analysis. And it's, like, we finally got to a critical number where we felt like doing this data pass was going to be statistically significant. We had enough interviews to really focus the interviews we're going to do going forward. So, just to give a little, like, lens into how that's worked and how we've been thinking about it.\n\nDAWN: I think we ask this question often, maybe every time, but I'm interested to see how it continues to evolve. But what was something that you learned these past two weeks that really surprised you or maybe even confirmed your hunches?\n\nJORDYN: So, as often happens, when you start talking to a focus group of people who share a lot of pain points in their lives or their work, you end up with, like, a lot of trends. Like, there might be a thing you're asking them about that you're particularly focused on or curious about, and you want to focus your questions on that. But invariably, you're talking to a human being, and they're going to talk about a lot of different things. \n\nAnd so, early on, and when we started interviewing people at the very beginning of this project in August, you know, we were very focused on college savings and spending. But an interesting thing, like, sort of trend that came up was also how much parents care about imparting, you know, some sense of financial responsibility in their young adults [laughs]. And we were like, well, that's interesting. Okay, let's, like, keep an eye on that. Maybe that's interesting to us. \n\nAnd what has kind of surprised me in the last couple of weeks is how much of that has sort of solidified. This is not, like, a news flash, by the way, like I think [laughs]. This is, like, a thing. Anyone who has teenagers out there is like, duh, like, why is this shocking to you? But the way that it ties into college savings and spending, I think we found some really interesting connections and threads there that have only gotten stronger with the specific cohorts that we've been talking to. \n\nSo, I think that we, at first, had started as just this sort of, like, well, that's interesting, but we'll see where it goes kind of thing. And now it's, like, become a little bit more core to how we're thinking about just broadly what folks are facing, who we're addressing. So, I guess it wasn't, like, a surprise, but, like, the deepening of that signal, you know, in the sense of signal and noise, has been, like, really interesting to us, I think.\n\nASHLEY: There's a system thinking expert that talks about how changes in a field are rarely made by the experts in the field but rather outsiders looking in. And so, for me, that's amazing because I don't have experience as a technology founder. I'm working with others who are founders in the technology space, which is great. \n\nBut it does leave some question marks for us as it relates to building some processes and doing some pilot mapping, which completely overcomable because we're able to draw on resources from within the thoughtbot organization. And then, also, just network, people within our network. Jordyn seems to know everybody. I'll be like, \"Do you know somebody in North Dakota?\" And she's like, \"Actually, yes, my third cousin's sister lives there, and I can get her on the phone.\" And it's just --\n\nJORDYN: It's my first cousin. I will tell you, it's my straight-up first cousin. \n\nASHLEY: Well, there's always someone that Jordyn knows no matter where, it seems like, which is extremely helpful when we're trying to find experts to help us answer some questions. So, it's great to be able to work through problems in a very systematic way, using some of the strategies that thoughtbot has employed, I guess, over and over and can be applied to different industries. But it does help us find, what are the questions we still need answered? And then, who are the people that can help us answer these questions? And be very strategic about that.\n\nJORDYN: I would add to that on the networking score. I think this is one of those things that first-time founders often struggle with. They struggle with recognizing who in their network is a valuable person to talk to in the first place. And then, they struggle with making those connections because it feels like you're asking people to do stuff for you, and that doesn't always feel great. \n\nBut really, your network, and where you come from, and the people you know and who care about you are one of your biggest assets going into this work. And it's important to take stock of those folks as early as you can and think about how to involve them. And often, they want to be involved. They're excited to have a way to support you and contribute their expertise or whatever else. \n\nIt's actually really transformed some of my relationships, like family relationships that I didn't necessarily have as...people I just discovered in my own sort of extended family who were doing related things to me. And we're much deeper friends now because we get to talk about that stuff all the time. And before I was a founder, we just didn't really talk [laughs]. So, just think through who you know and how they might be able to help you, and chances are they really want to. It's a very useful exercise. And it doesn't have to be super transactional. It can be a real bond builder.\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, I would say that's completely true, especially from my own experience. I don't like to ask people for help, generally. And so, asking people for their time and for their advice, I'm like, oh my gosh, why are they going to give this to me? What can I do for them? But it's really been amazing how generous people are with their knowledge, and insight, and their time. \n\nI'm attending a conference next week for the 529 industry. And there have been so many helpful, kind people who are just experts in their field, leaders in their companies and are willing to talk to me about their experiences about what challenges they see. Because ultimately, you know, when a company succeeds and helps the industry grow, everybody grows and benefits from that. So, I hadn't really looked at it that way until Jordyn really encouraged me to just be, like, just call that person or just, you know, reach out. And sure enough, they were more than willing to be helpful.\n\nDAWN: I imagine there is a sort of a bit of human factor here in that, you know, what you're giving to them is an opportunity for them to share, like, something that's, like, deeply important to them and that probably not a lot of people ask them about, even their day-to-day work. So, I imagine that can feel good, too, and maybe even sort of help them better understand [laughs], like, what it is they're doing. \n\nSo, you've definitely sunk into who to talk to. What about the how? Like, what are y'all doing now to try to continue validating that this is the right opportunity and that there's a product opportunity there?\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, so, really drilling down on those two cohorts that we mentioned a little earlier, specifically one of them, making sure that we are asking questions now related to this solution that we are thinking about, and more around their experience with similar type of products or similar type of solutions to make sure that we are thinking about building features or building process flows in a way that will integrate into the way they're used to doing things today so it doesn't seem like a new learning curve to, you know, think about adopting our product.\n\nAnd then, also, just making sure that we are providing value, ultimately, because we don't want to just build something just to build something that we think will work for this group of people who told us that something is hard. We want to make sure that we're actually making something that's hard much easier than it already is.\n\nJORDYN: Yeah. We've really, I mean, to build on that, we've gotten a little bit further into testing messaging, which is we think that we understand folks' problems and how they are talking about them, but we really need to validate that. And, you know, we have created some landing pages and are showing them to folks and getting their reactions. But we've also started doing a little bit of prototyping, which we hope to start showing folks soon. \n\nAnd this is all just...a prototype, in this case, meaning this isn't, like, a clickable app. This is just, like, sort of a static design that appears clickable [laughs], think of it like a PDF with some links in it, and just showing that to folks and saying, you know, \"What would you do here? How would you respond to this?\" And it's just a really great way to...it's fast. It's easy to spin one of those up and then get them in front of folks and make sure that how we're thinking about this is sort of broadly in the right direction. \n\nIt's so much cheaper to find out that we're thinking about this wrongly with something like that than with an app that we spent six months building and launching, ha-ha. Now, who's done that before? Not me, no, never [laughs]. I've never wasted a year building a thing. So, it's a really fun thing to do. And sometimes you can even...it's not even, like, let's validate what we're thinking. Sometimes, it's really helpful to actually throw some curveballs in there on purpose to make sure we're invalidating the right things. So, it's really fun to be moving into that phase with what we know to be true and really getting closer to testing things out in, like, a real-world situation.\n\nASHLEY: It's somewhat surprising, too, what people are reacting to or not reacting to. The things that we thought people would be really excited about, they're like, \"Eh.\" And the things that we thought are just kind of, like, filler on the page, they're like, \"That's awesome.\" So, it's really crazy to see that juxtaposition. And then, you've got some people who will be like, \"Huh, that's cool.\" And then, you've got some people who are like, \"Can I sign up right now?\" And you have to say, \"We'll let you know when you can, but not right now.\" Just the differences are pretty surprising.\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up, Ashley, about, like, the stuff that you just kind of put on the page to make it look like a real page, and then people really zero in on it. There's just so much serendipity involved in this work. And part of the skill in making products is being open to the right things at the right time, right? You want to stay focused on your mission and what it is you're trying to accomplish. But you don't want to ignore, you know, if people are reacting really strongly to something that you thought was sort of ancillary, it's important to, like, take a beat and think about that. How does that fit in? Can we use that?\n\nWhat you want to do is find lightning that you can bottle, and if people are not feeling lightning [laughs] about the primary thing you are working on but they are about something else, that's totally okay. I mean, the recent past of successful applications in software products is littered with stories like that, where people thought they were building one thing, and they just consistently heard about this related thing from their users. And they were like, well, why don't we just invest in that? It takes a lot of courage to stare in the face of that signal, the data that you're getting from people, and let go of the things that are not working and really embrace the things that are.\n\nDAWN: This reminds me a little bit of the conversation we were having when we were together in New York last week around the focus on validating or invalidating. The conversation we were having was kind of trying to shift that away from ideas to assumptions. But this is making me think that it focuses too much on one single thing that you're trying to get an answer for, as opposed to, like you're saying, being open to sort of receiving signals about completely tangential things or things that you may have not been paying attention to before. So, that makes a lot of sense. \n\nASHLEY: Yeah. Now I'm thinking, like, should we put even more crazy things on the page and just see what happens? Who knows?\n\nJORDYN: I think there's another aspect of this first-time founders often struggle with, which is that feeling that you shouldn't put anything on the page that you're testing that you couldn't actually do. And it's tough. It can feel a little bit like you're misleading people. But there's absolutely ethical ways to do this, where you tell people, \"Hey, this is just an idea. We're just trying to get people's gut reactions to this. We have not even put pixel-to-paper here. We don't even know. We just want to get your reaction.\" \n\nAs long as you're transparent with folks about where you're at and about not promising them things you can't actually do, I mean, obviously, if it were as easy as just promising stuff to people of what they want, we could just make a landing page that said, like, \"Free bag of money. Who wants free bag of money,\" right? [laughs] And people would be like, \"Why is the bag of money free?\" [laughs] Right? And so, you really want to be careful and not necessarily do anything that is misleading. \n\nBut on the other hand, there's no better way to get folks' emotional reaction than to put something together and just see how they respond to it. So, there's a lot of, like, sort of nuance to doing this. And, Dawn, to your point, the balancing act between being open and being scattered, right? That's a fine line. I've definitely been on teams before that are just, like, the new hotness every week. \"Hey, there's this cool app out. Let's just immediately redesign everything to look just like that.\" And you're like, \"Maybe? [laughs] I don't know if that's, like, the best idea.\" \n\nSo, it's a real balancing act, but it always comes back to who you're building for and what they want and need. And if you're staying very focused on that and measuring, you know, comparing every idea anything that comes your way against those, showing it to them and getting their reaction, you can't fail. Keeping no daylight between yourself and your customer that is the surest path.\n\nDAWN: Yeah, it kind of carries through to the core thing that we're saying, which is don't focus on one thing to validate or invalidate. Be open to receiving signals from other, you know, opportunities. But that's not validating or invalidating something. That's showing you where to focus your time. And then the product experiments and feasibility research and all of that is designed to help you to get closer to validation. \n\nBut, in some cases, there's a point at which you have to take a risk, right? And your customers are ultimately going to tell you over time whether or not the solution was the right one. But you get more confidence. You get closer to the right solution the more strategic you are about that process, so...oh, go ahead.\n\nASHLEY: I think the great thing about technology, too, is it's not set in stone. You can change it. If you learn something new, you can modify what you're doing to fit what you're hearing, and I think that's so incredible. We live in a time where there are so many tools and resources out there to really be nimble. And just to Jordyn's point earlier, I think the hardest part is being willing to take in some of these signals and be like, okay, this is what they want, and being willing to move in that direction versus the path you have already designed in your head.\n\nDAWN: Yeah, we've only got a couple of weeks left in this incubator [laughs]. How are y'all feeling? What are you planning? What are you looking forward to over the next couple of weeks?\n\nASHLEY: I can't believe that time went by so fast. I thought eight weeks felt like two years when we first started. I was like, oh, we've got so much time. We're going to do so much. We have done a lot. But the time has really flown by. So, I'm just kind of, like, now thinking about how do I make the most of the last few weeks? And just make sure that we check all the boxes that we set out to check in the beginning, and then have a plan from there in terms of continuing the work in a productive and, you know, exciting way.\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, one of the, like, sort of Northstar outcome for us in the incubator is to give the founder confidence in what they're doing and their path, the confidence in that vision, and then enough confidence to articulate it consistently to the folks they need to sort of bring along with them. So, what I'm, like, really looking forward to in the next couple of weeks is honing that story for Ashley. Like, what's your story? What's your why? What's your how? What's your when? And how to make sure that story is just easy to communicate. \n\nI mean, already, Ashley, like, up top of this exact livestream where you articulated sort of, like, what AvidFirst is doing, I think I feel better and better about that articulation given what we know. It feels really good. It feels solid. And as we're going, we're just as skeptical as anyone else, right? But we're trying to anticipate what folks...external stakeholders broadly define what their misgivings are going to be. And we're compiling a kind of list of frequently asked questions about what AvidFirst is doing, like, why 529s? Why next-gen consumers? Et cetera. Just so that that story is so internalized that, like, you can't really be taken off guard necessarily. \n\nI mean, you want to be open to new questions and new ideas. That's not what I'm saying. But just basically, like, being able to thoroughly and deeply, at the drop of a hat, to sort of pitch this to your dentist while they're cleaning your teeth, you know, like that kind of conviction and, like, the solidity of the narrative is really what we're going for in the next few weeks. \n\nAnd I think we're well on our way there. We have all the pieces. It's about putting it together coherently, I think, at this point. It's really exciting, though. I do feel like we're really zeroing in on a valuable lens on college saving and spending that I think the market is really ripe for, so it's exciting.\n\nDAWN: Yeah, it's been great to see all the progress. We have a comment that I just noticed.\n\nASHLEY: Oh.\n\nDAWN: Not a question, but I wanted to call it out because it was related to what you were talking about a few minutes ago, Jordyn. Kiran said they totally agree. \"We had the same epiphany/pivot this summer. We went from direct-to-consumer to an enterprise model. Try to zoom out with a systems thinking lens, and it will help with a clearer path and tell your story.\"\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, that's awesome. \n\nDAWN: There are no other questions from the audience. And it seems like maybe there's still a little bit of a lag. So [laughs], we can wrap up. If anybody has questions after this, feel free to comment. We'll be, you know, checking out the posts on LinkedIn and YouTube. And we can follow up there. \n\nYou can always, like I said, come and follow along. Check out our thoughtbot.com incubator site. You can both apply to the next incubator session and sign up to hear from us in our weekly newsletter. We write about progress on our blog as well, so thoughtbot.com/blog. There's all kinds of ways to find us and actually talking about the work that we're doing. So, please follow along.\n\nJORDYN: Anyone out there who's wondering, am I right for the incubator? Just apply. It's really, like, nothing is too early if it's just an idea you've been kicking around that's born of your industry experience or your personal experience. The application process is really lightweight. This is not going to take you days to fill out this application. \n\nWe've heard from folks that even filling out the application is the first thing they ever did with regard to the idea, helped solidify it, and solidify their thinking for them. So, just go apply. You got something? You got an idea for an app? You see a growing market out there, and you feel like it's underserved with software? Just holler at us. We'd love to hear it. Apply. It's fun [laughs]. \n\nDAWN: Yeah. Thanks, everybody, for tuning in. Thanks, Jordyn and Ashley, for participating. See you again in a couple of weeks, yeah?\n\nJORDYN: Yes. It'll be the last week, so we'll have things to say, no doubt.\n\nDAWN: Yes, tune in. It'll be a good time. All right. Thanks, everybody.\n\nAD:\n\nDid you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or a development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.\n\nMore info on our website at tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.Special Guests: Ashley Sheble, Dawn Delatte, and Jordyn Bonds.","content_html":"Dawn Delatte and Jordyn Bonds interview Ashley Sheble, the Founder of AvidFirst, about her experiences and progress in thoughtbot's Incubator Program, which aims to help founders like Ashley turn an idea into a viable product.
\n\nIn the third part of the Mini Incubator Series, they talk about user interviews, data analysis, and prototyping to validate ideas. They emphasize the importance of being open to user signals and adjusting their approach accordingly. They also discuss the upcoming weeks of the program and the goal of refining their story and business strategy.
\n\nJust catching up? Listen to Part I and Part 2 of the Mini Incubator Series!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nDAWN: Thanks, everybody, for joining. We're glad that you're here. If you've tuned in before, great, welcome back. You're probably familiar with thoughtbot; if you're not, we're a product design and development consultancy that helps make you, and your team, and your product successful.
\n\nWe are currently running the second session of our incubator program, which is an eight-week program that takes you through a lot of different activities and exercises to help you identify market and product opportunities, experiment with them, and ideally come up with a solution that you can move forward with.
\n\nI'm Dawn. I'm a Managing Director here at thoughtbot. And I lead a team that works with very early-stage products, and founders, and companies. And I'll hand it over to Jordyn.
\n\nJORDYN: I'm Jordyn Bonds, and I'm the Director of Product Strategy on Dawn's team. And I'm kind of the...I don't know what, founder in residence for the incubator trying to bring my experience as a former founder to bear for our participants, in this case, Ashley.
\n\nASHLEY: Okay, my name is Ashley Sheble. I'm the CEO and founder of AvidFirst and have been working with Jordyn and a great team in the second incubator session. So, removing all bias from the statement I'm about to say, but if anybody's thinking about applying to the next incubator, just do it. It's an amazing experience. You're going to learn so much. There are so many smart, helpful people who really care about building cool products that make a difference. And so, do it.
\n\nDAWN: I love it. Thanks for the impromptu promo.
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, thank you [laughs]. It's good to hear.
\n\nDAWN: Yeah, I'm excited. Cool. Well, Ashley, why don't you maybe kick us off with a little bit of a recap of these past two weeks? What have y'all been working on?
\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, so, just for a little background, in case anybody hasn't been following along, AvidFirst is a technology company aimed at simplifying college saving and spending. Our goal is really to make 529 accounts more usable broadly and then, more specifically, attractive to next-gen consumers.
\n\nAnd for those who aren't familiar with 529 plans, that's okay because neither are about 70% of Americans. But essentially, they are college savings vehicles. They're investment accounts that allow people to contribute money. The money grows tax-free and then can be withdrawn tax-free when used for qualified education expenses.
\n\nAnd over the past few years, the term qualified education expense has really expanded from beyond just tuition and fees to room and board on and off campus, computers, technology, supplies, apprenticeships, K through 12, like, the list is getting longer and longer. And so, our goal is just to really help simplify a really complex system and savings vehicle to make them more appealing and attractive to people.
\n\nSo, the past few weeks, specifically, we have been aggregating all the data from our user interviews. We've done a lot of user interviews with different stakeholders and have been taking the information and saying, okay, what do we do next? How do we validate the way we're thinking about solving this problem will actually solve the problem in the way that we think it will? And so, through lots of process mapping, brainstorming different pilot initiatives, and then now working through some of the nuances of the industry. The 529 industry, specifically, is a complex animal. I don't really know how else to explain it. It's very complex. And so, we are just navigating these complexities and looking for solutions that will truly simplify the complexity.
\n\nJORDYN: I will just dig in a little bit to that analysis of the interviews that we've been conducting. That analysis kind of, like, stepped up a notch in the last week in a really fun way where we, the team, really kind of dug into the dynamics of each interview, sort of the things that we're most curious about, and have been asking and really, like, scored each interview. And then did sort of a cohort analysis, like, where are the trends with which personas?
\n\nWe had already had some intuitions, and we just wanted to confirm with the data that we weren't deluding ourselves about what the direction was. So, that was a really, like, I think it was a really useful exercise and kind of fun to see. And what doing that helps with is our own conviction, but then it also helps us make sure that we are honing who we're talking to going forward.
\n\nTalking to folks is, like, so critical and is so not scalable. It is so time-consuming [laughs]. So, you want to make sure that you're doing it really strategically. So, it's sort of, like, every wave of interviews we do, we do a little more analysis. And it's, like, we finally got to a critical number where we felt like doing this data pass was going to be statistically significant. We had enough interviews to really focus the interviews we're going to do going forward. So, just to give a little, like, lens into how that's worked and how we've been thinking about it.
\n\nDAWN: I think we ask this question often, maybe every time, but I'm interested to see how it continues to evolve. But what was something that you learned these past two weeks that really surprised you or maybe even confirmed your hunches?
\n\nJORDYN: So, as often happens, when you start talking to a focus group of people who share a lot of pain points in their lives or their work, you end up with, like, a lot of trends. Like, there might be a thing you're asking them about that you're particularly focused on or curious about, and you want to focus your questions on that. But invariably, you're talking to a human being, and they're going to talk about a lot of different things.
\n\nAnd so, early on, and when we started interviewing people at the very beginning of this project in August, you know, we were very focused on college savings and spending. But an interesting thing, like, sort of trend that came up was also how much parents care about imparting, you know, some sense of financial responsibility in their young adults [laughs]. And we were like, well, that's interesting. Okay, let's, like, keep an eye on that. Maybe that's interesting to us.
\n\nAnd what has kind of surprised me in the last couple of weeks is how much of that has sort of solidified. This is not, like, a news flash, by the way, like I think [laughs]. This is, like, a thing. Anyone who has teenagers out there is like, duh, like, why is this shocking to you? But the way that it ties into college savings and spending, I think we found some really interesting connections and threads there that have only gotten stronger with the specific cohorts that we've been talking to.
\n\nSo, I think that we, at first, had started as just this sort of, like, well, that's interesting, but we'll see where it goes kind of thing. And now it's, like, become a little bit more core to how we're thinking about just broadly what folks are facing, who we're addressing. So, I guess it wasn't, like, a surprise, but, like, the deepening of that signal, you know, in the sense of signal and noise, has been, like, really interesting to us, I think.
\n\nASHLEY: There's a system thinking expert that talks about how changes in a field are rarely made by the experts in the field but rather outsiders looking in. And so, for me, that's amazing because I don't have experience as a technology founder. I'm working with others who are founders in the technology space, which is great.
\n\nBut it does leave some question marks for us as it relates to building some processes and doing some pilot mapping, which completely overcomable because we're able to draw on resources from within the thoughtbot organization. And then, also, just network, people within our network. Jordyn seems to know everybody. I'll be like, "Do you know somebody in North Dakota?" And she's like, "Actually, yes, my third cousin's sister lives there, and I can get her on the phone." And it's just --
\n\nJORDYN: It's my first cousin. I will tell you, it's my straight-up first cousin.
\n\nASHLEY: Well, there's always someone that Jordyn knows no matter where, it seems like, which is extremely helpful when we're trying to find experts to help us answer some questions. So, it's great to be able to work through problems in a very systematic way, using some of the strategies that thoughtbot has employed, I guess, over and over and can be applied to different industries. But it does help us find, what are the questions we still need answered? And then, who are the people that can help us answer these questions? And be very strategic about that.
\n\nJORDYN: I would add to that on the networking score. I think this is one of those things that first-time founders often struggle with. They struggle with recognizing who in their network is a valuable person to talk to in the first place. And then, they struggle with making those connections because it feels like you're asking people to do stuff for you, and that doesn't always feel great.
\n\nBut really, your network, and where you come from, and the people you know and who care about you are one of your biggest assets going into this work. And it's important to take stock of those folks as early as you can and think about how to involve them. And often, they want to be involved. They're excited to have a way to support you and contribute their expertise or whatever else.
\n\nIt's actually really transformed some of my relationships, like family relationships that I didn't necessarily have as...people I just discovered in my own sort of extended family who were doing related things to me. And we're much deeper friends now because we get to talk about that stuff all the time. And before I was a founder, we just didn't really talk [laughs]. So, just think through who you know and how they might be able to help you, and chances are they really want to. It's a very useful exercise. And it doesn't have to be super transactional. It can be a real bond builder.
\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, I would say that's completely true, especially from my own experience. I don't like to ask people for help, generally. And so, asking people for their time and for their advice, I'm like, oh my gosh, why are they going to give this to me? What can I do for them? But it's really been amazing how generous people are with their knowledge, and insight, and their time.
\n\nI'm attending a conference next week for the 529 industry. And there have been so many helpful, kind people who are just experts in their field, leaders in their companies and are willing to talk to me about their experiences about what challenges they see. Because ultimately, you know, when a company succeeds and helps the industry grow, everybody grows and benefits from that. So, I hadn't really looked at it that way until Jordyn really encouraged me to just be, like, just call that person or just, you know, reach out. And sure enough, they were more than willing to be helpful.
\n\nDAWN: I imagine there is a sort of a bit of human factor here in that, you know, what you're giving to them is an opportunity for them to share, like, something that's, like, deeply important to them and that probably not a lot of people ask them about, even their day-to-day work. So, I imagine that can feel good, too, and maybe even sort of help them better understand [laughs], like, what it is they're doing.
\n\nSo, you've definitely sunk into who to talk to. What about the how? Like, what are y'all doing now to try to continue validating that this is the right opportunity and that there's a product opportunity there?
\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, so, really drilling down on those two cohorts that we mentioned a little earlier, specifically one of them, making sure that we are asking questions now related to this solution that we are thinking about, and more around their experience with similar type of products or similar type of solutions to make sure that we are thinking about building features or building process flows in a way that will integrate into the way they're used to doing things today so it doesn't seem like a new learning curve to, you know, think about adopting our product.
\n\nAnd then, also, just making sure that we are providing value, ultimately, because we don't want to just build something just to build something that we think will work for this group of people who told us that something is hard. We want to make sure that we're actually making something that's hard much easier than it already is.
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah. We've really, I mean, to build on that, we've gotten a little bit further into testing messaging, which is we think that we understand folks' problems and how they are talking about them, but we really need to validate that. And, you know, we have created some landing pages and are showing them to folks and getting their reactions. But we've also started doing a little bit of prototyping, which we hope to start showing folks soon.
\n\nAnd this is all just...a prototype, in this case, meaning this isn't, like, a clickable app. This is just, like, sort of a static design that appears clickable [laughs], think of it like a PDF with some links in it, and just showing that to folks and saying, you know, "What would you do here? How would you respond to this?" And it's just a really great way to...it's fast. It's easy to spin one of those up and then get them in front of folks and make sure that how we're thinking about this is sort of broadly in the right direction.
\n\nIt's so much cheaper to find out that we're thinking about this wrongly with something like that than with an app that we spent six months building and launching, ha-ha. Now, who's done that before? Not me, no, never [laughs]. I've never wasted a year building a thing. So, it's a really fun thing to do. And sometimes you can even...it's not even, like, let's validate what we're thinking. Sometimes, it's really helpful to actually throw some curveballs in there on purpose to make sure we're invalidating the right things. So, it's really fun to be moving into that phase with what we know to be true and really getting closer to testing things out in, like, a real-world situation.
\n\nASHLEY: It's somewhat surprising, too, what people are reacting to or not reacting to. The things that we thought people would be really excited about, they're like, "Eh." And the things that we thought are just kind of, like, filler on the page, they're like, "That's awesome." So, it's really crazy to see that juxtaposition. And then, you've got some people who will be like, "Huh, that's cool." And then, you've got some people who are like, "Can I sign up right now?" And you have to say, "We'll let you know when you can, but not right now." Just the differences are pretty surprising.
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up, Ashley, about, like, the stuff that you just kind of put on the page to make it look like a real page, and then people really zero in on it. There's just so much serendipity involved in this work. And part of the skill in making products is being open to the right things at the right time, right? You want to stay focused on your mission and what it is you're trying to accomplish. But you don't want to ignore, you know, if people are reacting really strongly to something that you thought was sort of ancillary, it's important to, like, take a beat and think about that. How does that fit in? Can we use that?
\n\nWhat you want to do is find lightning that you can bottle, and if people are not feeling lightning [laughs] about the primary thing you are working on but they are about something else, that's totally okay. I mean, the recent past of successful applications in software products is littered with stories like that, where people thought they were building one thing, and they just consistently heard about this related thing from their users. And they were like, well, why don't we just invest in that? It takes a lot of courage to stare in the face of that signal, the data that you're getting from people, and let go of the things that are not working and really embrace the things that are.
\n\nDAWN: This reminds me a little bit of the conversation we were having when we were together in New York last week around the focus on validating or invalidating. The conversation we were having was kind of trying to shift that away from ideas to assumptions. But this is making me think that it focuses too much on one single thing that you're trying to get an answer for, as opposed to, like you're saying, being open to sort of receiving signals about completely tangential things or things that you may have not been paying attention to before. So, that makes a lot of sense.
\n\nASHLEY: Yeah. Now I'm thinking, like, should we put even more crazy things on the page and just see what happens? Who knows?
\n\nJORDYN: I think there's another aspect of this first-time founders often struggle with, which is that feeling that you shouldn't put anything on the page that you're testing that you couldn't actually do. And it's tough. It can feel a little bit like you're misleading people. But there's absolutely ethical ways to do this, where you tell people, "Hey, this is just an idea. We're just trying to get people's gut reactions to this. We have not even put pixel-to-paper here. We don't even know. We just want to get your reaction."
\n\nAs long as you're transparent with folks about where you're at and about not promising them things you can't actually do, I mean, obviously, if it were as easy as just promising stuff to people of what they want, we could just make a landing page that said, like, "Free bag of money. Who wants free bag of money," right? [laughs] And people would be like, "Why is the bag of money free?" [laughs] Right? And so, you really want to be careful and not necessarily do anything that is misleading.
\n\nBut on the other hand, there's no better way to get folks' emotional reaction than to put something together and just see how they respond to it. So, there's a lot of, like, sort of nuance to doing this. And, Dawn, to your point, the balancing act between being open and being scattered, right? That's a fine line. I've definitely been on teams before that are just, like, the new hotness every week. "Hey, there's this cool app out. Let's just immediately redesign everything to look just like that." And you're like, "Maybe? [laughs] I don't know if that's, like, the best idea."
\n\nSo, it's a real balancing act, but it always comes back to who you're building for and what they want and need. And if you're staying very focused on that and measuring, you know, comparing every idea anything that comes your way against those, showing it to them and getting their reaction, you can't fail. Keeping no daylight between yourself and your customer that is the surest path.
\n\nDAWN: Yeah, it kind of carries through to the core thing that we're saying, which is don't focus on one thing to validate or invalidate. Be open to receiving signals from other, you know, opportunities. But that's not validating or invalidating something. That's showing you where to focus your time. And then the product experiments and feasibility research and all of that is designed to help you to get closer to validation.
\n\nBut, in some cases, there's a point at which you have to take a risk, right? And your customers are ultimately going to tell you over time whether or not the solution was the right one. But you get more confidence. You get closer to the right solution the more strategic you are about that process, so...oh, go ahead.
\n\nASHLEY: I think the great thing about technology, too, is it's not set in stone. You can change it. If you learn something new, you can modify what you're doing to fit what you're hearing, and I think that's so incredible. We live in a time where there are so many tools and resources out there to really be nimble. And just to Jordyn's point earlier, I think the hardest part is being willing to take in some of these signals and be like, okay, this is what they want, and being willing to move in that direction versus the path you have already designed in your head.
\n\nDAWN: Yeah, we've only got a couple of weeks left in this incubator [laughs]. How are y'all feeling? What are you planning? What are you looking forward to over the next couple of weeks?
\n\nASHLEY: I can't believe that time went by so fast. I thought eight weeks felt like two years when we first started. I was like, oh, we've got so much time. We're going to do so much. We have done a lot. But the time has really flown by. So, I'm just kind of, like, now thinking about how do I make the most of the last few weeks? And just make sure that we check all the boxes that we set out to check in the beginning, and then have a plan from there in terms of continuing the work in a productive and, you know, exciting way.
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, one of the, like, sort of Northstar outcome for us in the incubator is to give the founder confidence in what they're doing and their path, the confidence in that vision, and then enough confidence to articulate it consistently to the folks they need to sort of bring along with them. So, what I'm, like, really looking forward to in the next couple of weeks is honing that story for Ashley. Like, what's your story? What's your why? What's your how? What's your when? And how to make sure that story is just easy to communicate.
\n\nI mean, already, Ashley, like, up top of this exact livestream where you articulated sort of, like, what AvidFirst is doing, I think I feel better and better about that articulation given what we know. It feels really good. It feels solid. And as we're going, we're just as skeptical as anyone else, right? But we're trying to anticipate what folks...external stakeholders broadly define what their misgivings are going to be. And we're compiling a kind of list of frequently asked questions about what AvidFirst is doing, like, why 529s? Why next-gen consumers? Et cetera. Just so that that story is so internalized that, like, you can't really be taken off guard necessarily.
\n\nI mean, you want to be open to new questions and new ideas. That's not what I'm saying. But just basically, like, being able to thoroughly and deeply, at the drop of a hat, to sort of pitch this to your dentist while they're cleaning your teeth, you know, like that kind of conviction and, like, the solidity of the narrative is really what we're going for in the next few weeks.
\n\nAnd I think we're well on our way there. We have all the pieces. It's about putting it together coherently, I think, at this point. It's really exciting, though. I do feel like we're really zeroing in on a valuable lens on college saving and spending that I think the market is really ripe for, so it's exciting.
\n\nDAWN: Yeah, it's been great to see all the progress. We have a comment that I just noticed.
\n\nASHLEY: Oh.
\n\nDAWN: Not a question, but I wanted to call it out because it was related to what you were talking about a few minutes ago, Jordyn. Kiran said they totally agree. "We had the same epiphany/pivot this summer. We went from direct-to-consumer to an enterprise model. Try to zoom out with a systems thinking lens, and it will help with a clearer path and tell your story."
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, that's awesome.
\n\nDAWN: There are no other questions from the audience. And it seems like maybe there's still a little bit of a lag. So [laughs], we can wrap up. If anybody has questions after this, feel free to comment. We'll be, you know, checking out the posts on LinkedIn and YouTube. And we can follow up there.
\n\nYou can always, like I said, come and follow along. Check out our thoughtbot.com incubator site. You can both apply to the next incubator session and sign up to hear from us in our weekly newsletter. We write about progress on our blog as well, so thoughtbot.com/blog. There's all kinds of ways to find us and actually talking about the work that we're doing. So, please follow along.
\n\nJORDYN: Anyone out there who's wondering, am I right for the incubator? Just apply. It's really, like, nothing is too early if it's just an idea you've been kicking around that's born of your industry experience or your personal experience. The application process is really lightweight. This is not going to take you days to fill out this application.
\n\nWe've heard from folks that even filling out the application is the first thing they ever did with regard to the idea, helped solidify it, and solidify their thinking for them. So, just go apply. You got something? You got an idea for an app? You see a growing market out there, and you feel like it's underserved with software? Just holler at us. We'd love to hear it. Apply. It's fun [laughs].
\n\nDAWN: Yeah. Thanks, everybody, for tuning in. Thanks, Jordyn and Ashley, for participating. See you again in a couple of weeks, yeah?
\n\nJORDYN: Yes. It'll be the last week, so we'll have things to say, no doubt.
\n\nDAWN: Yes, tune in. It'll be a good time. All right. Thanks, everybody.
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Special Guests: Ashley Sheble, Dawn Delatte, and Jordyn Bonds.
","summary":"Dawn Delatte and Jordyn Bonds interview Ashley Sheble, the Founder of AvidFirst, about her experiences and progress in thoughtbot's Incubator Program, which aims to help founders like Ashley turn an idea into a viable product. \r\n\r\nIn the third part of the Mini Incubator Series, they talk about user interviews, data analysis, and prototyping to validate ideas. They emphasize the importance of being open to user signals and adjusting their approach accordingly. They also discuss the upcoming weeks of the program and the goal of refining their story and business strategy.","date_published":"2023-11-01T00:30:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/8e1e5d51-e60b-4493-8d4e-4af819291e80.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":21722274,"duration_in_seconds":1416}]},{"id":"41f151d5-8ded-4707-b991-42677023455f","title":"thoughtbot's Incubator Program Mini Season - Episode 02: AvidFirst with Ashley Sheble","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/incubatormini2","content_text":"In this second conversation in this Mini Incubator Series, Dawn Delatte and Jordyn Bonds interview Ashley Sheble, the Founder of AvidFirst, about her experiences and progress in thoughtbot's Incubator Program, which aims to help founders like Ashley turn an idea into a viable product. \n\nThe trio talks about Ashley's experiences and progress in the program. She emphasizes the significance of user research and interviews in shaping product strategy and understanding customer needs. She also highlights the need to narrow their focus to specific customer segments to build a product that resonates with a particular group. Additionally, they discuss the complexities of the FinTech industry and how regulatory considerations are an integral part of their product development process. As they gain more insights, they are transitioning into the prototyping and testing phase to validate their product concepts and messaging.\n\nJust catching up? Listen to Part I of the Mini Incubator Series.\n\n\n\n\nFollow Ashley Sheble on LinkedIn.\nFollow thoughtbot on X or LinkedIn.\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nDAWN: Hello, everyone. I'm Dawn Delatte. I am a Managing Director here at thoughtbot. And I'm filling in for Lindsey. And I'm super excited to be here and chat with Ashley and Jordyn about how the incubator is going so far. \n\nIf you are tuning in, you're probably familiar with thoughtbot, but just in case you're not, we are a product design and development consultancy who works with people and products across the entire product lifecycle to make your team and product a success. We are currently running our second incubator session. If you're not familiar with it, we've got a ton of content from our first session that you can check out, or you can follow along in this one. \n\nBut our incubator program is an eight-week program that we take a founder through to validate or invalidate their new product ideas through lots of market research, customer discovery, interviews, and such. And then, we come out with a product plan that helps set them on the right path forward. \n\nIn the last update, we introduced our incubator founder, who's with us again today. In this session, we'll be talking with Ashley and Jordyn about digging deep into research and plenty of interviews and, you know, what they're learning and what the process is like so far. So, I'm excited to get started. How about y'all kick us off with some introductions? Jordyn?\n\nJORDYN: I'm Jordyn Bonds. I'm the Director of Product Strategy at thoughtbot on Dawn's team, the Ignite team at thoughtbot. I'm a two-time startup founder myself. I've worked with a couple of other early-stage startups, so all about the zero-to-one startup journey over here. \n\nASHLEY: And I'm Ashley Sheble. I am the Founder of AvidFirst, and I am the second incubator founder. And working with Jordyn and team and thoughtbot to really accelerate the mission of our company, which is focused on simplifying college saving and spending.\n\nDAWN: Ashley, why don't you recap a little bit for us what's happened since the last time? \n\nASHLEY: Yeah, I'd love to. So, the past three weeks have been really just getting into the weeds on user interviews, talking with different stakeholders as it relates to the problem we're looking to solve. And what we're finding are some key themes. And so, really trying to aggregate the data, focus in on those key themes, and find out where we can really pull at some of those strings to start creating some solutions that are meaningful and specific. \n\nOne of the primary trends that we're seeing is just lack of awareness around some of the resources and tools available to people as it relates to saving for college; 529s, for example, are a really great tool. And most people, 70%, aren't aware of them. And so, if you've never heard of them, you're in great company. \n\nSo, just really looking at high-level trends, getting more specific on even more granular trends, and trying to pull everything together and create a product that's meaningful. And again, it circles back to our overarching mission of simplifying college saving and spending.\n\nDAWN: Nice. Is there something that has come up either in the process or, you know, from interviews that has been your big sort of aha or eureka moment?\n\nASHLEY: I feel like there's an aha moment pretty much every day. And sometimes the aha moments are like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. We're really on to something. And then, sometimes the aha moments are like, wow, we're really off course, and we have no idea what this means and what do we do with it. And so, it's kind of this up-and-down experience, like we talked about last time we chatted.\n\nBut it is exciting at the same time because no matter what aha moment, all of it means something. And it helps us make forward progress in the right direction versus making forward progress and then hitting a roadblock and realizing, okay, that's as far as we can go, and now we have to start all over. The team has been really good about helping me make sense of some of these findings that we are uncovering and piecing together some solutions that really address some of these aha moments, both shocking and positive.\n\nDAWN: It's really great to hear you articulate that from a founder perspective and someone who, you know, isn't doing this sort of day-to-day product and development thing because, you know, that's a really common experience for us is hearing what's going well and what's not going well and sort of pivoting. But yeah, it's good to hear that directly from you. \n\nSo, y'all have been doing a ton of research and a ton of talking to people. Jordyn, tell us how you feel about user research. I know that term, in particular, has some interesting [chuckles] connotations, but dig into that.\n\nJORDYN: Yeah. Well, we kind of talked about this a little bit this week, and I think research is really broad and vague. And so, just talking about research often doesn't feel super sort of actionable to people. User research is really about once you have a product and market and you have users, how they're using your product or not using it, right? So that's user research. \n\nBut I find that people often talk about this sort of higher-level strategic research that we're engaged in right now using the same term. And it leads people astray because they think that you need a prototype or you need an app to be able to do user research, which you do. But that's not really the kind of research that we're engaged in yet. Right now, we're doing customer discovery. And that involves researching and interviewing a ton of different personas, some of whom might end up being our customers, some of whom are interested stakeholders or partners. It's a really wide-ranging kind of cast of characters. \n\nAnd the truth is, we don't know who these people are to us yet, right? So, it's really just sort of interviewing [laughs]. It's a hard thing to kind of characterize. I would love to hear, Ashley, like, how you're finding it. But, like, from where I sit, it really isn't about walking people through an interface yet. It's way more just asking folks about their life and their work and how they're doing things now, I think, is a really critical component.\n\nLike what you're trying to do with these interviews is find out what are the true pain points that people have, not what they think you want to hear, but what the pain points are that they already have and that they are already trying to solve in certain ways and how they're solving them. And it requires a lot of just high-level questions and then closing your mouth and listening. But it's a very different thing, I think, than user research. But often, in product land, we kind of just use user research as this blanket term, but it really is a bunch of different kinds of things.\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, I would add to what Jordyn is saying, and the use of research, it's really interesting to just hear people's experience and their own background. And we always try to preface, like, there is no right or wrong answer. We just want to hear about the way you're thinking about something or the way you're currently doing something, not how you hypothetically would do something. Because, I don't know, think about your own life, and you think about the way you would do something. It's probably about ten times better than the way you actually do something. \n\nWhen I get asked like, \"Well, how many times a day do you set time to just decompress?\" In my mind, I'm like, \"Oh, probably, like, five times a day.\" When in reality, that's never. It's a never. So, if somebody were, like, you know, asking me for user research, you know, \"Would you use this thing to decompress?\" I'd be like, \"Sure.\" But I wouldn't. I would not use it because I just don't make the time for something like that. So, the point is, is not asking people hypothetically how they would do something but how they're actually doing something now and then using that insight to build around. \n\nAnd then, beyond just that customer journey, the stakeholder journey. And when you think about building a solution, there are more people involved than just the end user. There are so many different parties that play into a certain product, especially as you think about FinTech or you think about a large segment like the education segment. There are a lot of players, and you have to look at the way each player is looking at a problem and understand how those all tie together. And sometimes that's super obvious, and sometimes it's not obvious at all. And so, thankfully, having a team that has a different lens in the way we're interpreting data allows us to get to a solution faster.\n\nDAWN: Yeah, I like that. Again, it's great to hear you articulating that. And I think we have this old article about not using terms like user research. I think it focuses a little bit more on user testing because that implies the idea of testing a user. But we're not testing people; we're testing our concepts. I think that we use the word usability test as a way to sort of delineate a little bit better. Here's the purpose of this test. We're actually testing the product versus, you know, having a conversation.\n\nWhen you throw in words like interview or even customer, customer could be presumptive in some ways. But it's difficult to sort of tell people what you're doing when you're like, I'm just having a lot of conversations this week [laughs], just meeting, meeting a lot of people and listening. Meeting and listening, I guess, is the activity [laughs]. So, why is that stuff important? And can there be too much of it? What is this process like, and why are y'all doing it?\n\nJORDYN: It's so funny to have internalized the sort of value of doing this kind of work so thoroughly that sometimes I even have...I'm like, how else do you know what's going on out there? I mean, that's ultimately the purpose of it is that you really don't know how people are living and working until you ask them or, even better, watch them live and work if you can. And what's really critical is that that changes over time. We're all constantly changing our behavior in response to new trends, new tools we might adopt, right? And the research at this level, this high level of, like, how are you living and working, really can never end for that reason, right? \n\nLike, the classic example in sort of software product land is when Netflix really started to invest in online streaming and gradually sunset its DVD-by-mail service. And they did it right at the peak of that service. And so, people were like, this is really wild. Why are they doing this? This is so successful. Why would they, like, stop doing this thing that's really successful?\n\nBut they had been talking to their customers, their end users. They had been, as you said, Dawn, more than talking to them, listening to them. And they were looking at the trends. And they were like, there's no future in this. There's a future in online streaming, and we need to get ahead of that future. And we need to dominate that opportunity because we're in a position to do so. And it takes a lot of listening, synthesizing, and then risk-taking. But it doesn't feel like a risk when you've been listening to your customers, I guess, is, like, why this research is so important. \n\nWhen you know something about the market because there is no daylight between you and how folks are living and what they're doing out there, it doesn't feel very risky. You have, like, complete certainty about what's happening out there because you know. Because you're talking to people. You have relationships with them. It's not merely about some...and when we say research, I don't want it to sound, like, sort of cold and, like, purely numbers-driven. \n\nThis is, like, we're having warm, engaging, you know, human conversations with human beings, like, all day, every day. But because of that, we have a really good sense of what's going on out there. And the decisions we make, they feel inevitable or something. You start to see an opportunity out there that just feels obvious. And it's a funny thing to watch that kind of once everybody on the team is aligned around that reality that we're hearing and the sort of inevitability of, like, what you need. You start to get kind of panicked because you're like, who else is seeing this? This is so obvious to us. And you start to kind of be like, who else is it obvious to?\n\nBut, you know, sadly, I don't know what the right word is here, but, like, it's hard work. This work of listening it is not very scalable work. You can do some things to operationalize it for sure, but it takes time to engage with humans, to synthesize what you've heard, to share it with your team, to stay on the same page about it. It's not super scalable work, straight up. But it is the most valuable work that you could possibly be doing. So, it's okay that it's not scalable. But yeah, you start to identify these real market insights. And then you kind of have this minute of, like, who else is seeing this? Because this looks really clear to us, right? [laughs]\n\nASHLEY: And it's interesting because the last time we chatted here a couple of weeks ago, Lindsey was like, \"I'm sure you'll be in a different spot next week. And, you know, you'll be thinking about something different than you are right now.\" And, in my head, I was like, probably not. I've done a lot of research. It'll probably be the same. And she was right. It's very different from where we were a couple of weeks ago, and the way we're thinking about taking a certain path and circling back to having these conversations that are so critical and really shape the way you're thinking about problems from so many different directions. And so, I thought that was funny that she was right.\n\nDAWN: Lindsey is always right.\n\nJORDYN: Another ingredient here that I think is really important that becomes clear when you start doing this work but is a hard thing to describe...and I would kind of love to hear how Ashley has been thinking about this. But if you're not hearing a pattern, if you're out there doing the interviewing and it's just a million different descriptions of reality, that is the surest sign that you are not focused on a small enough addressable group of people. You haven't narrowed into a group of people who are the same. \n\nAnd that's really the only way to build a product is to find a group of people who are the same. Make something for them that they love, and then think about where you can go from there. You can't please all of the people all of the time, but you can't please all the people at once, right? You're not going to be able to build a product that does that. And I would say, like, even later, you're not, you know, there's like...it just...it totally dilutes your focus. \n\nSo, if you are out there doing a bunch of interviewing, a bunch of research, and you're just hearing a bunch of different voices, and it sounds like there's no signal there, it's just that you haven't sufficiently narrowed. So, one of the things we've been doing over the last couple of weeks is really trying to figure out who exactly has the pain point the most that is addressable, in the sense that it's a group of people who are similar, similar enough that we can build a product for them, that is going to work for all of them, and we can speak about it in a way that resonates for them?\n\nAnd it feels kind of impossible. And it also kind of feels, I don't know, a little bit like cheating. Like, it feels opposite of how I think founders think about making products. It's like, you want to build a thing that appeals to a lot of people. That's the drive, and that is absolutely the correct long-term drive, right? And it feels a little bit about sort of throw the game by choosing the people. It feels a little bit like you're like, well, of course, we can make something for a group of people if we've already pre-selected who they are, but it's like, yeah, exactly, that's a lot easier [laughs]. \n\nSo, anyway, I didn't want to move on without sort of mentioning that that focus on a persona is really, really critical. Yes, we're doing a ton of research, or we're talking to a ton of different people. But in each of those categories, we're really trying to figure out who are addressable niches to start?\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, and I think just getting as specific as possible, like Jordyn has said, has been...in my mind, I was thinking, we don't want to do that because then that really limits the amount of people we can help or the amount of people who could really benefit from a solution. But the good news is that once you solve a problem for a group of people, you can expand upon that and use the learnings from that solution and build something that can help more and more people. Because initially, I was like, \"No, we don't want to do that. That's crazy.\" And she was right.\n\nDAWN: Jordyn is another one of those people that's always right [laughs]. Mostly right. Okay, so you're using what you're finding and hearing in these conversations to help guide, you know, your focus, but especially the space that y'all are operating in, FinTech, in particular, is a very complex space. And so, there's all sorts of other dynamics that have to come into your strategy and direction for the product. So, how are y'all navigating which dynamics to focus on outside of what you're discovering in these conversations, you know, whether that be infrastructure, regulatory things, like, you know, all of those complexities?\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, I would say, right now, we're focusing on infrastructure. And that will inform the regulatory piece because there are so many nuances in the space as it relates to what type of product you're building for whom and where. And so, once that is more crystallized, the regulatory pieces can be plugged in. And you're right; it's super complex. And we want to make sure that we're being extremely compliant in every possible way. And so, that is highest priority. \n\nBut I think, too, to try to boil the ocean with all the different nuances when maybe we're not as crystal clear on the infrastructure would be, I don't know, waste of time is the wrong phrase, but I think it would not be the most efficient use of time. I think getting that infrastructure and then nailing down the regulatory piece around the infrastructure is the best path that we're thinking.\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, I would just add here that this space is really complex. And the image that's kind of emerged most recently is of a giant puzzle we're putting together. There are a lot of pieces to this puzzle. It's not a thousand-piece puzzle, but it feels close [laughs]. But where we're starting out is where you start with any puzzle, which is the corner pieces. Like, what are the cornerstones of what we're doing? And figuring out what those are, always centered in what the value proposition is to customers, right? We need to know what their incentives are, what they need and want. That's the cornerstone. \n\nAnd then the feasibility and the infrastructure and, you know, regulatory are the blanks we fill in sort of from there. But without demand, none of that stuff would matter, right? It's a really hard thing because you start to think about...and we talk about this stuff all the time; I want to call out. It's not, like, we're strictly disciplined about we're not talking about that right now. Like, it comes up all the time. \n\nAnd we're sharing what we're learning and what we're seeing out there. We're looking at other products that have, you know, come onto the market recently, like, long-time players in the FinTech space. We're looking at all of that stuff, what they've done, what they've built, and how. We're thinking and talking about those things, but those decisions are not as important as making sure that we're as close to the customer as we can. That's the cornerstone pieces.\n\nOur customers and our partners, what are their motivations? What do they need? And then, once we have those corner pieces, then we fill in the puzzle. It's a big, complex puzzle, but you always have to start with something of value. If you're not bringing something of value to those folks, none of this other stuff really matters.\n\nDAWN: This is making me wonder if there are people out there who start their puzzles in the middle [laughs]. \n\nJORDYN: Guilty as charged [laughs].\n\nDAWN: I meant more [inaudible 18:57]. I didn't mean metaphorically. We know that happens [laughter], unfortunately.\n\nJORDYN: Yes, no, I have absolutely been that person personally, you know, and it can be really distracting. The feasibility puzzle is very interesting, and it feels inevitable. Like, you're going to have to solve those problems. The problem is that you don't know which of them is going to matter right now. So, solving those problems now, like Ashley said, it's sort of a waste of time. You might end up solving them eventually, right? But you need to figure out the strategic path forward. And so, yeah, it's tough. \n\nI have an engineering background. I love solving complex puzzles. It's very tempting to go do that right now, and it feels much more tangible. Like, okay, we can go read the regulations. We can, like, look at what the infrastructure can do right now. Let's go solve that problem. But it would be just a colossal waste of time to go off in that direction right now. And we don't yet know fully what the value proposition is for whom. Like, that is the gem at the heart of this.\n\nI want to acknowledge that there are software efforts out there where the core value really is in a technical innovation. But I would still argue that the timing of bringing that technical innovation to market has as much to do with the market. We can see this over and over again with tons of technologies that were developed years or decades ago, but the market was not at a place where it needed that thing yet. \n\nAnd I really say needed; wanted is a different thing, right? You need to get to a place where the need is red hot. So, it's tough. The puzzle is fascinating. It's very distracting. We end up talking about it a lot, but we have to, like, bring ourselves back to the stakeholders.\n\nDAWN: To wrap things up, now that y'all have sort of deepened your understanding of things, what can you expect from the process going forward? What should we expect to sort of hear about next time we meet?\n\nJORDYN: We're actually already edging into this, and it's fun to watch how this process happens. When you start to hear something repeatable, you inevitably move into prototyping because you start to have a real shared understanding of what it is you need to put in front of people. \n\nWe're just now, I would say, like, today, getting to the place where we're confident that we need to be testing messaging in particular. We've heard enough things that we need to start testing. Like, are we talking about the problems in the way that, you know, customers and our partners are talking about them? And we need to start trying that language out and then seeing how it resonates. That's the first piece of testing. We're already starting to conceive of workflows, like a prototype concept. \n\nIt's so fascinating how, again, it's just always is a consequence of alignment and insight. You don't have to plan it. It emerges. As soon as you've started to put the pieces together a little bit, it's just very natural that, as a group, you start talking about how you might address this problem. You can tell when we've gotten there because we are aligned. In the same way that you're hearing the same thing from the customer, you start to see the same solution because it's clear what is needed. So, we're really moving into that. \n\nI want to make it clear, like, we don't stop interviewing. We don't stop talking to folks. But the sort of how specific we are with what we're asking and what we're showing people changes a little bit. That's really just starting to happen now. And I'm sure we'll have a lot more to say about that next time [laughs].\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. I'll say the value of the team is incredible. I can't stress that enough. Just this morning, I came to our morning sync and was like, \"Listen, I learned this thing. I think it's over. We're done.\" And Jordyn and team were like, \"No, this is actually a really great thing.\" And, you know, I'm just like, they're going to give up. They're going to shut it down. They're going to say, \"No, we don't want to work with you.\" And they're like, \"This is great news.\" \n\nAnd so, just the diversity of perspective is so different, and it's really great to have that. Because sometimes you can get focused on something in such a linear way that you're like, there's no way out of this thing. And you kind of miss the forest for the trees, so...\n\nJORDYN: I'm glad you brought that moment up. I was hoping we would talk about it during this live session because it was one of those moments where you were like, \"I have some really bad news. I learned something. This is very sad.\" And you kind of talked about it a minute. \n\nI had a sort of unbridled glee [laughs]. I was like, oh, awesome, because we knew enough to know there was, like, we were missing something. There are a bunch of solutions in the market that look very different than what we were considering. And we were like, why? There's got to be a good reason. These people are not dumb. The market they're seeing is not different from the market we're seeing. So, like, why have they made a different call? \n\nAnd this piece of information, you know, Ashley showed up and was like, \"Hey, I learned something, here it is.\" And I was like, \"That's the piece of information. Great.\" So, now we actually can make a plan. We are still sort of convinced of the value that we were driving toward. And now we just have an added understanding of what it will take to get there. Good. Now we know what it'll take. \n\nIt's really terrible to have an idea of the value prop that you want to pursue and not have any idea of how would it get there. But now we actually really did feel like a piece of a puzzle falling into place. And it was hilarious because Ashely was, like, very grim, and then I was like, \"Oh,\" I was like, \"Great.\" [laughs]\n\nASHLEY: I was like --\n\nJORDYN: Ashley was like, \"Wait, what?\" [laughs] It was very funny.\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, it was great. I was like, I hope the rest of my day is this good, so...\n\n[laughter]\n\nDAWN: Well, I'm sorry to say, Ashley, but you can't get rid of us that easily [laughter]. Thank you both for chatting with me today. \n\nIf y'all want to stay updated, you can follow along on LinkedIn or YouTube. We do these live streams every two weeks. We also share incubator news and updates on our blog, so thoughtbot.com/blog. You can always go to the incubator site to understand a little bit more about the program. That's thoughtbot.com/incubator. Send us your questions if you have them. And you can always attend the lives, comment on the threads, send us an email. We love to hear from y'all. Thank you for tuning in\n\nAD:\n\nDid you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.\n\nMore info on our website at tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.Special Guests: Ashley Sheble, Dawn Delatte, and Jordyn Bonds.","content_html":"In this second conversation in this Mini Incubator Series, Dawn Delatte and Jordyn Bonds interview Ashley Sheble, the Founder of AvidFirst, about her experiences and progress in thoughtbot's Incubator Program, which aims to help founders like Ashley turn an idea into a viable product.
\n\nThe trio talks about Ashley's experiences and progress in the program. She emphasizes the significance of user research and interviews in shaping product strategy and understanding customer needs. She also highlights the need to narrow their focus to specific customer segments to build a product that resonates with a particular group. Additionally, they discuss the complexities of the FinTech industry and how regulatory considerations are an integral part of their product development process. As they gain more insights, they are transitioning into the prototyping and testing phase to validate their product concepts and messaging.
\n\nJust catching up? Listen to Part I of the Mini Incubator Series.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nDAWN: Hello, everyone. I'm Dawn Delatte. I am a Managing Director here at thoughtbot. And I'm filling in for Lindsey. And I'm super excited to be here and chat with Ashley and Jordyn about how the incubator is going so far.
\n\nIf you are tuning in, you're probably familiar with thoughtbot, but just in case you're not, we are a product design and development consultancy who works with people and products across the entire product lifecycle to make your team and product a success. We are currently running our second incubator session. If you're not familiar with it, we've got a ton of content from our first session that you can check out, or you can follow along in this one.
\n\nBut our incubator program is an eight-week program that we take a founder through to validate or invalidate their new product ideas through lots of market research, customer discovery, interviews, and such. And then, we come out with a product plan that helps set them on the right path forward.
\n\nIn the last update, we introduced our incubator founder, who's with us again today. In this session, we'll be talking with Ashley and Jordyn about digging deep into research and plenty of interviews and, you know, what they're learning and what the process is like so far. So, I'm excited to get started. How about y'all kick us off with some introductions? Jordyn?
\n\nJORDYN: I'm Jordyn Bonds. I'm the Director of Product Strategy at thoughtbot on Dawn's team, the Ignite team at thoughtbot. I'm a two-time startup founder myself. I've worked with a couple of other early-stage startups, so all about the zero-to-one startup journey over here.
\n\nASHLEY: And I'm Ashley Sheble. I am the Founder of AvidFirst, and I am the second incubator founder. And working with Jordyn and team and thoughtbot to really accelerate the mission of our company, which is focused on simplifying college saving and spending.
\n\nDAWN: Ashley, why don't you recap a little bit for us what's happened since the last time?
\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, I'd love to. So, the past three weeks have been really just getting into the weeds on user interviews, talking with different stakeholders as it relates to the problem we're looking to solve. And what we're finding are some key themes. And so, really trying to aggregate the data, focus in on those key themes, and find out where we can really pull at some of those strings to start creating some solutions that are meaningful and specific.
\n\nOne of the primary trends that we're seeing is just lack of awareness around some of the resources and tools available to people as it relates to saving for college; 529s, for example, are a really great tool. And most people, 70%, aren't aware of them. And so, if you've never heard of them, you're in great company.
\n\nSo, just really looking at high-level trends, getting more specific on even more granular trends, and trying to pull everything together and create a product that's meaningful. And again, it circles back to our overarching mission of simplifying college saving and spending.
\n\nDAWN: Nice. Is there something that has come up either in the process or, you know, from interviews that has been your big sort of aha or eureka moment?
\n\nASHLEY: I feel like there's an aha moment pretty much every day. And sometimes the aha moments are like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. We're really on to something. And then, sometimes the aha moments are like, wow, we're really off course, and we have no idea what this means and what do we do with it. And so, it's kind of this up-and-down experience, like we talked about last time we chatted.
\n\nBut it is exciting at the same time because no matter what aha moment, all of it means something. And it helps us make forward progress in the right direction versus making forward progress and then hitting a roadblock and realizing, okay, that's as far as we can go, and now we have to start all over. The team has been really good about helping me make sense of some of these findings that we are uncovering and piecing together some solutions that really address some of these aha moments, both shocking and positive.
\n\nDAWN: It's really great to hear you articulate that from a founder perspective and someone who, you know, isn't doing this sort of day-to-day product and development thing because, you know, that's a really common experience for us is hearing what's going well and what's not going well and sort of pivoting. But yeah, it's good to hear that directly from you.
\n\nSo, y'all have been doing a ton of research and a ton of talking to people. Jordyn, tell us how you feel about user research. I know that term, in particular, has some interesting [chuckles] connotations, but dig into that.
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah. Well, we kind of talked about this a little bit this week, and I think research is really broad and vague. And so, just talking about research often doesn't feel super sort of actionable to people. User research is really about once you have a product and market and you have users, how they're using your product or not using it, right? So that's user research.
\n\nBut I find that people often talk about this sort of higher-level strategic research that we're engaged in right now using the same term. And it leads people astray because they think that you need a prototype or you need an app to be able to do user research, which you do. But that's not really the kind of research that we're engaged in yet. Right now, we're doing customer discovery. And that involves researching and interviewing a ton of different personas, some of whom might end up being our customers, some of whom are interested stakeholders or partners. It's a really wide-ranging kind of cast of characters.
\n\nAnd the truth is, we don't know who these people are to us yet, right? So, it's really just sort of interviewing [laughs]. It's a hard thing to kind of characterize. I would love to hear, Ashley, like, how you're finding it. But, like, from where I sit, it really isn't about walking people through an interface yet. It's way more just asking folks about their life and their work and how they're doing things now, I think, is a really critical component.
\n\nLike what you're trying to do with these interviews is find out what are the true pain points that people have, not what they think you want to hear, but what the pain points are that they already have and that they are already trying to solve in certain ways and how they're solving them. And it requires a lot of just high-level questions and then closing your mouth and listening. But it's a very different thing, I think, than user research. But often, in product land, we kind of just use user research as this blanket term, but it really is a bunch of different kinds of things.
\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, I would add to what Jordyn is saying, and the use of research, it's really interesting to just hear people's experience and their own background. And we always try to preface, like, there is no right or wrong answer. We just want to hear about the way you're thinking about something or the way you're currently doing something, not how you hypothetically would do something. Because, I don't know, think about your own life, and you think about the way you would do something. It's probably about ten times better than the way you actually do something.
\n\nWhen I get asked like, "Well, how many times a day do you set time to just decompress?" In my mind, I'm like, "Oh, probably, like, five times a day." When in reality, that's never. It's a never. So, if somebody were, like, you know, asking me for user research, you know, "Would you use this thing to decompress?" I'd be like, "Sure." But I wouldn't. I would not use it because I just don't make the time for something like that. So, the point is, is not asking people hypothetically how they would do something but how they're actually doing something now and then using that insight to build around.
\n\nAnd then, beyond just that customer journey, the stakeholder journey. And when you think about building a solution, there are more people involved than just the end user. There are so many different parties that play into a certain product, especially as you think about FinTech or you think about a large segment like the education segment. There are a lot of players, and you have to look at the way each player is looking at a problem and understand how those all tie together. And sometimes that's super obvious, and sometimes it's not obvious at all. And so, thankfully, having a team that has a different lens in the way we're interpreting data allows us to get to a solution faster.
\n\nDAWN: Yeah, I like that. Again, it's great to hear you articulating that. And I think we have this old article about not using terms like user research. I think it focuses a little bit more on user testing because that implies the idea of testing a user. But we're not testing people; we're testing our concepts. I think that we use the word usability test as a way to sort of delineate a little bit better. Here's the purpose of this test. We're actually testing the product versus, you know, having a conversation.
\n\nWhen you throw in words like interview or even customer, customer could be presumptive in some ways. But it's difficult to sort of tell people what you're doing when you're like, I'm just having a lot of conversations this week [laughs], just meeting, meeting a lot of people and listening. Meeting and listening, I guess, is the activity [laughs]. So, why is that stuff important? And can there be too much of it? What is this process like, and why are y'all doing it?
\n\nJORDYN: It's so funny to have internalized the sort of value of doing this kind of work so thoroughly that sometimes I even have...I'm like, how else do you know what's going on out there? I mean, that's ultimately the purpose of it is that you really don't know how people are living and working until you ask them or, even better, watch them live and work if you can. And what's really critical is that that changes over time. We're all constantly changing our behavior in response to new trends, new tools we might adopt, right? And the research at this level, this high level of, like, how are you living and working, really can never end for that reason, right?
\n\nLike, the classic example in sort of software product land is when Netflix really started to invest in online streaming and gradually sunset its DVD-by-mail service. And they did it right at the peak of that service. And so, people were like, this is really wild. Why are they doing this? This is so successful. Why would they, like, stop doing this thing that's really successful?
\n\nBut they had been talking to their customers, their end users. They had been, as you said, Dawn, more than talking to them, listening to them. And they were looking at the trends. And they were like, there's no future in this. There's a future in online streaming, and we need to get ahead of that future. And we need to dominate that opportunity because we're in a position to do so. And it takes a lot of listening, synthesizing, and then risk-taking. But it doesn't feel like a risk when you've been listening to your customers, I guess, is, like, why this research is so important.
\n\nWhen you know something about the market because there is no daylight between you and how folks are living and what they're doing out there, it doesn't feel very risky. You have, like, complete certainty about what's happening out there because you know. Because you're talking to people. You have relationships with them. It's not merely about some...and when we say research, I don't want it to sound, like, sort of cold and, like, purely numbers-driven.
\n\nThis is, like, we're having warm, engaging, you know, human conversations with human beings, like, all day, every day. But because of that, we have a really good sense of what's going on out there. And the decisions we make, they feel inevitable or something. You start to see an opportunity out there that just feels obvious. And it's a funny thing to watch that kind of once everybody on the team is aligned around that reality that we're hearing and the sort of inevitability of, like, what you need. You start to get kind of panicked because you're like, who else is seeing this? This is so obvious to us. And you start to kind of be like, who else is it obvious to?
\n\nBut, you know, sadly, I don't know what the right word is here, but, like, it's hard work. This work of listening it is not very scalable work. You can do some things to operationalize it for sure, but it takes time to engage with humans, to synthesize what you've heard, to share it with your team, to stay on the same page about it. It's not super scalable work, straight up. But it is the most valuable work that you could possibly be doing. So, it's okay that it's not scalable. But yeah, you start to identify these real market insights. And then you kind of have this minute of, like, who else is seeing this? Because this looks really clear to us, right? [laughs]
\n\nASHLEY: And it's interesting because the last time we chatted here a couple of weeks ago, Lindsey was like, "I'm sure you'll be in a different spot next week. And, you know, you'll be thinking about something different than you are right now." And, in my head, I was like, probably not. I've done a lot of research. It'll probably be the same. And she was right. It's very different from where we were a couple of weeks ago, and the way we're thinking about taking a certain path and circling back to having these conversations that are so critical and really shape the way you're thinking about problems from so many different directions. And so, I thought that was funny that she was right.
\n\nDAWN: Lindsey is always right.
\n\nJORDYN: Another ingredient here that I think is really important that becomes clear when you start doing this work but is a hard thing to describe...and I would kind of love to hear how Ashley has been thinking about this. But if you're not hearing a pattern, if you're out there doing the interviewing and it's just a million different descriptions of reality, that is the surest sign that you are not focused on a small enough addressable group of people. You haven't narrowed into a group of people who are the same.
\n\nAnd that's really the only way to build a product is to find a group of people who are the same. Make something for them that they love, and then think about where you can go from there. You can't please all of the people all of the time, but you can't please all the people at once, right? You're not going to be able to build a product that does that. And I would say, like, even later, you're not, you know, there's like...it just...it totally dilutes your focus.
\n\nSo, if you are out there doing a bunch of interviewing, a bunch of research, and you're just hearing a bunch of different voices, and it sounds like there's no signal there, it's just that you haven't sufficiently narrowed. So, one of the things we've been doing over the last couple of weeks is really trying to figure out who exactly has the pain point the most that is addressable, in the sense that it's a group of people who are similar, similar enough that we can build a product for them, that is going to work for all of them, and we can speak about it in a way that resonates for them?
\n\nAnd it feels kind of impossible. And it also kind of feels, I don't know, a little bit like cheating. Like, it feels opposite of how I think founders think about making products. It's like, you want to build a thing that appeals to a lot of people. That's the drive, and that is absolutely the correct long-term drive, right? And it feels a little bit about sort of throw the game by choosing the people. It feels a little bit like you're like, well, of course, we can make something for a group of people if we've already pre-selected who they are, but it's like, yeah, exactly, that's a lot easier [laughs].
\n\nSo, anyway, I didn't want to move on without sort of mentioning that that focus on a persona is really, really critical. Yes, we're doing a ton of research, or we're talking to a ton of different people. But in each of those categories, we're really trying to figure out who are addressable niches to start?
\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, and I think just getting as specific as possible, like Jordyn has said, has been...in my mind, I was thinking, we don't want to do that because then that really limits the amount of people we can help or the amount of people who could really benefit from a solution. But the good news is that once you solve a problem for a group of people, you can expand upon that and use the learnings from that solution and build something that can help more and more people. Because initially, I was like, "No, we don't want to do that. That's crazy." And she was right.
\n\nDAWN: Jordyn is another one of those people that's always right [laughs]. Mostly right. Okay, so you're using what you're finding and hearing in these conversations to help guide, you know, your focus, but especially the space that y'all are operating in, FinTech, in particular, is a very complex space. And so, there's all sorts of other dynamics that have to come into your strategy and direction for the product. So, how are y'all navigating which dynamics to focus on outside of what you're discovering in these conversations, you know, whether that be infrastructure, regulatory things, like, you know, all of those complexities?
\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, I would say, right now, we're focusing on infrastructure. And that will inform the regulatory piece because there are so many nuances in the space as it relates to what type of product you're building for whom and where. And so, once that is more crystallized, the regulatory pieces can be plugged in. And you're right; it's super complex. And we want to make sure that we're being extremely compliant in every possible way. And so, that is highest priority.
\n\nBut I think, too, to try to boil the ocean with all the different nuances when maybe we're not as crystal clear on the infrastructure would be, I don't know, waste of time is the wrong phrase, but I think it would not be the most efficient use of time. I think getting that infrastructure and then nailing down the regulatory piece around the infrastructure is the best path that we're thinking.
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, I would just add here that this space is really complex. And the image that's kind of emerged most recently is of a giant puzzle we're putting together. There are a lot of pieces to this puzzle. It's not a thousand-piece puzzle, but it feels close [laughs]. But where we're starting out is where you start with any puzzle, which is the corner pieces. Like, what are the cornerstones of what we're doing? And figuring out what those are, always centered in what the value proposition is to customers, right? We need to know what their incentives are, what they need and want. That's the cornerstone.
\n\nAnd then the feasibility and the infrastructure and, you know, regulatory are the blanks we fill in sort of from there. But without demand, none of that stuff would matter, right? It's a really hard thing because you start to think about...and we talk about this stuff all the time; I want to call out. It's not, like, we're strictly disciplined about we're not talking about that right now. Like, it comes up all the time.
\n\nAnd we're sharing what we're learning and what we're seeing out there. We're looking at other products that have, you know, come onto the market recently, like, long-time players in the FinTech space. We're looking at all of that stuff, what they've done, what they've built, and how. We're thinking and talking about those things, but those decisions are not as important as making sure that we're as close to the customer as we can. That's the cornerstone pieces.
\n\nOur customers and our partners, what are their motivations? What do they need? And then, once we have those corner pieces, then we fill in the puzzle. It's a big, complex puzzle, but you always have to start with something of value. If you're not bringing something of value to those folks, none of this other stuff really matters.
\n\nDAWN: This is making me wonder if there are people out there who start their puzzles in the middle [laughs].
\n\nJORDYN: Guilty as charged [laughs].
\n\nDAWN: I meant more [inaudible 18:57]. I didn't mean metaphorically. We know that happens [laughter], unfortunately.
\n\nJORDYN: Yes, no, I have absolutely been that person personally, you know, and it can be really distracting. The feasibility puzzle is very interesting, and it feels inevitable. Like, you're going to have to solve those problems. The problem is that you don't know which of them is going to matter right now. So, solving those problems now, like Ashley said, it's sort of a waste of time. You might end up solving them eventually, right? But you need to figure out the strategic path forward. And so, yeah, it's tough.
\n\nI have an engineering background. I love solving complex puzzles. It's very tempting to go do that right now, and it feels much more tangible. Like, okay, we can go read the regulations. We can, like, look at what the infrastructure can do right now. Let's go solve that problem. But it would be just a colossal waste of time to go off in that direction right now. And we don't yet know fully what the value proposition is for whom. Like, that is the gem at the heart of this.
\n\nI want to acknowledge that there are software efforts out there where the core value really is in a technical innovation. But I would still argue that the timing of bringing that technical innovation to market has as much to do with the market. We can see this over and over again with tons of technologies that were developed years or decades ago, but the market was not at a place where it needed that thing yet.
\n\nAnd I really say needed; wanted is a different thing, right? You need to get to a place where the need is red hot. So, it's tough. The puzzle is fascinating. It's very distracting. We end up talking about it a lot, but we have to, like, bring ourselves back to the stakeholders.
\n\nDAWN: To wrap things up, now that y'all have sort of deepened your understanding of things, what can you expect from the process going forward? What should we expect to sort of hear about next time we meet?
\n\nJORDYN: We're actually already edging into this, and it's fun to watch how this process happens. When you start to hear something repeatable, you inevitably move into prototyping because you start to have a real shared understanding of what it is you need to put in front of people.
\n\nWe're just now, I would say, like, today, getting to the place where we're confident that we need to be testing messaging in particular. We've heard enough things that we need to start testing. Like, are we talking about the problems in the way that, you know, customers and our partners are talking about them? And we need to start trying that language out and then seeing how it resonates. That's the first piece of testing. We're already starting to conceive of workflows, like a prototype concept.
\n\nIt's so fascinating how, again, it's just always is a consequence of alignment and insight. You don't have to plan it. It emerges. As soon as you've started to put the pieces together a little bit, it's just very natural that, as a group, you start talking about how you might address this problem. You can tell when we've gotten there because we are aligned. In the same way that you're hearing the same thing from the customer, you start to see the same solution because it's clear what is needed. So, we're really moving into that.
\n\nI want to make it clear, like, we don't stop interviewing. We don't stop talking to folks. But the sort of how specific we are with what we're asking and what we're showing people changes a little bit. That's really just starting to happen now. And I'm sure we'll have a lot more to say about that next time [laughs].
\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. I'll say the value of the team is incredible. I can't stress that enough. Just this morning, I came to our morning sync and was like, "Listen, I learned this thing. I think it's over. We're done." And Jordyn and team were like, "No, this is actually a really great thing." And, you know, I'm just like, they're going to give up. They're going to shut it down. They're going to say, "No, we don't want to work with you." And they're like, "This is great news."
\n\nAnd so, just the diversity of perspective is so different, and it's really great to have that. Because sometimes you can get focused on something in such a linear way that you're like, there's no way out of this thing. And you kind of miss the forest for the trees, so...
\n\nJORDYN: I'm glad you brought that moment up. I was hoping we would talk about it during this live session because it was one of those moments where you were like, "I have some really bad news. I learned something. This is very sad." And you kind of talked about it a minute.
\n\nI had a sort of unbridled glee [laughs]. I was like, oh, awesome, because we knew enough to know there was, like, we were missing something. There are a bunch of solutions in the market that look very different than what we were considering. And we were like, why? There's got to be a good reason. These people are not dumb. The market they're seeing is not different from the market we're seeing. So, like, why have they made a different call?
\n\nAnd this piece of information, you know, Ashley showed up and was like, "Hey, I learned something, here it is." And I was like, "That's the piece of information. Great." So, now we actually can make a plan. We are still sort of convinced of the value that we were driving toward. And now we just have an added understanding of what it will take to get there. Good. Now we know what it'll take.
\n\nIt's really terrible to have an idea of the value prop that you want to pursue and not have any idea of how would it get there. But now we actually really did feel like a piece of a puzzle falling into place. And it was hilarious because Ashely was, like, very grim, and then I was like, "Oh," I was like, "Great." [laughs]
\n\nASHLEY: I was like --
\n\nJORDYN: Ashley was like, "Wait, what?" [laughs] It was very funny.
\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, it was great. I was like, I hope the rest of my day is this good, so...
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nDAWN: Well, I'm sorry to say, Ashley, but you can't get rid of us that easily [laughter]. Thank you both for chatting with me today.
\n\nIf y'all want to stay updated, you can follow along on LinkedIn or YouTube. We do these live streams every two weeks. We also share incubator news and updates on our blog, so thoughtbot.com/blog. You can always go to the incubator site to understand a little bit more about the program. That's thoughtbot.com/incubator. Send us your questions if you have them. And you can always attend the lives, comment on the threads, send us an email. We love to hear from y'all. Thank you for tuning in
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Special Guests: Ashley Sheble, Dawn Delatte, and Jordyn Bonds.
","summary":"In this second conversation in this Mini Incubator Series, Dawn Delatte and Jordyn Bonds interview Ashley Sheble, the Founder of AvidFirst, about her experiences and progress in thoughtbot's incubator program. thoughtbot's Incubator Program aims to help founders like Ashley turn an idea into a viable product. \r\n\r\nThe trio talks about Ashley's experiences and progress in the program. She emphasizes the significance of user research and interviews in shaping product strategy and understanding customer needs. She also highlights the need to narrow their focus to specific customer segments to build a product that resonates with a particular group. Additionally, they discuss the complexities of the FinTech industry and how regulatory considerations are an integral part of their product development process. As they gain more insights, they are transitioning into the prototyping and testing phase to validate their product concepts and messaging.","date_published":"2023-11-01T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/41f151d5-8ded-4707-b991-42677023455f.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":26704867,"duration_in_seconds":1520}]},{"id":"89aa52e1-a052-4d03-9007-726f933a8cba","title":"thoughtbot's Incubator Program Mini Season - Episode 01: AvidFirst with Ashley Sheble","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/incubatormini1","content_text":"Lindsey Christensen is back as the Marketing Lead at thoughtbot! She's joined by guests Jordyn Bonds, the Director of Product Strategy at thoughtbot, and Ashley Sheble, a founder currently participating in thoughtbot's eight-week startup incubator, to discuss the multifaceted journey of entrepreneurship. \n\nthoughtbot's Incubator Program aims to help founders like Ashley turn an idea into a viable product. They're currently at the stage of validating assumptions about the problem space and target market. Jordyn introduces a new concept: a project roadmap visualization that includes an \"emotions workstream.\" This is designed to help founders anticipate and navigate the emotional rollercoaster often associated with the early stages of startup development.\n\nAshley finds the roadmap valuable, especially as it challenges her to examine her ideas from multiple perspectives. She appreciates the one-on-one support from the Incubator team, which complements her own expertise. She also speaks to the liberating aspect of acknowledging emotions in the startup journey, which is especially pertinent for female founders who often face additional challenges like lack of funding.\n\nJordyn emphasizes the importance of early and continuous customer engagement for product validation and innovation. She encourages aspiring entrepreneurs to talk to potential customers as soon as possible to iterate and learn from these interactions. Jordan and Ashley stress that embracing the logical and emotional aspects of entrepreneurship leads to more effective and grounded decision-making.\n\n\n\n\nFollow Ashley Sheble on LinkedIn.\nFollow thoughtbot on X or LinkedIn.\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nLINDSEY: All right, we are live. So, thank you for joining us today. So, we've got a new founder that's going through thoughtbot's startup incubator. And we're going to be checking in with her as she goes through the program, learning what she learns, learning about the process. \n\nQuick reminder: thoughtbot is a development and design company. We help founders and existing companies create, launch, and improve amazing products and their teams. And one way we do that is through our startup incubator. The incubator is an eight-week program. And our second session just kicked off, which we're going to be talking about a whole lot today. \n\nSo, I'm excited to introduce you to the founder that's going through that process, as well as our fearless leader of the incubator program, Jordyn, I myself, Lindsey Christensen. I'm the Marketing Lead here at thoughtbot. I'll be asking lots of questions. But if you also have questions, please enter them in the chat, and we'll get to those as well. Before we get to Ashley, I'm going to start off with Jordyn. For those who may not be familiar with you, can you tell us who you are and what you're doing?\n\nJORDYN: I am Jordyn Bonds. And I am the Director of Product Strategy on thoughtbot's, Ignite team, which is the team that is kind of experimenting with this incubator, shall we say. And I am a two-time startup founder myself. I've worked at other early-stage startups as initial head of product. Long ago, I spent ten years as a software engineer. So, that's my distant background. And I live in Boston.\n\nLINDSEY: Oh, we got our first comment. Someone says, \"Thanks for sharing your experience.\" Thank you. Welcome. Love that. Keep the comments and questions coming. \n\nOkay. And now for our latest guest of honor. Ashley, can you introduce yourself to the audience? A little bit about you and maybe even about your journey to bring you here today.\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, absolutely. So, hi, everybody. My name is Ashley Sheble. I'm currently based in Houston, Texas. I have about 15 years of experience in sales and operations roles. And I have two kids. I've got one who started third grade yesterday and one who started her senior year of high school yesterday, which is crazy. Time really flies by. \n\nBut the reason why that's relevant for this conversation is because I have attended so many college tours over the past few years and started learning about just how expensive higher education has become. I had no idea that a public four-year in-state school could cost $100,000 plus for just four years. And then, you start looking at out-of-state and private schools, and that number doubles, which is crazy to me. \n\nSo, after I got through that initial sticker shock, I was like, how is this possible? Like, now I understand why the student debt crisis is happening. And became really passionate about learning more about it and trying to figure out ways that I could help. Because obviously, the solutions and tools we have today to help people prepare for the education they or their children or family members need or want just aren't working. So, became really excited about that and working with thoughtbot as their second founder to explore this further.\n\nLINDSEY: Amazing. So, Ashley, fighting the good fight. Student debt, I know, a topic near and dear to many people who are dealing with this. You mentioned your kid's journey to college is what started the idea. Let's dig into that a little bit more. How are you approaching the challenge, the problems that you see? Or maybe, like, how long it's been that you've been kind of playing around with this idea.\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm in a graduate school program and have used this as an opportunity to really explore different ways to attack problems. I became really interested in innovation and entrepreneurship at grad school and began just doing research, learning about ways to solve really big, complex problems, and found that technology could really be an interesting way to approach the student debt problem differently than what's been done before. \n\nIt's an industry that has largely lacked innovation, and have been working with professors and experts just to think about ways to apply technology to this really complicated problem to provide a more simple solution for people who just want to pay for school.\n\nLINDSEY: And this is your first time being a founder. Is that right?\n\nASHLEY: It is. So, thank goodness for thoughtbot being my partner here because I'm not a technical person, meaning I don't develop software. I'm not a software designer, and knew that that was going to be a critical piece of developing a solution. And so, I'm grateful for the opportunity to work with Jordyn and her team.\n\nLINDSEY: Have you, like, always thought you would, at some point, start your own thing? You know, have you always been entrepreneurial?\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, I think so. I can tell you my first business started in third grade. I launched my babysitting venture and marketed my services all over the neighborhood and church, and wherever would allow me to hang up a flyer, and had a pretty steady book of business, if you will. And in hindsight, I really cannot believe that parents allowed a 10-year-old to babysit their kids. You know, maybe in the '90s there were fewer questions–definitely less legal restrictions around age.\n\nLINDSEY: The '90s were wild.\n\nASHLEY: The '90s were wild, yeah. Maybe I just seemed mature and responsible. I don't know. I don't know.\n\nLINDSEY: Amazing. All right. Jordyn, so Ashley submitted for the thoughtbot incubator. What stood out to you in that application? And why did she seem like, you know, the right fit to go through the program?\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, Ashley's application was just totally...it had that combination of prepared, done her homework, done the work to present the story well, but also clearly had a passion and a connection to the problem space. It wasn't just, like, a purely academic exercise for her, and just came prepared–really gave thoughtful answers in the application. There's a number of interviews that happened during the application process. She showed up with bells on and asked really good questions, which is something we always look for from founders as well. And she just knocked it out of the park.\n\nASHLEY: Thank you. \n\nLINDSEY: And why was maybe where she is in her business or product journey a good fit for the incubator? \n\nJORDYN: Great question. So, we sit at a really special moment, which is usually founders are coming to us, well, hopefully, founders are coming to us pre-product. So, they have not built a thing yet. They're basically at that moment where they've identified an opportunity. They've given it lots of thought, done a ton of research, maybe started talking to people about it.\n\nBut they're not sure how to take an idea, an opportunity, and what happens between that moment and innovation, actually a plan for a product, a strategic plan for product, and the ability to execute on that. There's a big gap there in understanding, especially for first-time founders. It certainly was a gap for me as a [laughs] first-time founder. That's the ideal candidate for us. \n\nThat said, we do have folks coming to the incubator who are interested in executing, like, a strategic pivot. Maybe they've found that the first thing they did was just, like, a market flop, and they basically want to do the programming. They're sort of starting over. Maybe they have a little bit...they're basically like, \"Hey, we disqualified one idea. [laughs] We would like to come up with some other options.\" Those folks are also a good fit. And that is exactly the moment that Ashley is at. She's done a lot of great research so far–has a really interesting idea, interesting take on an interesting problem, but could really benefit from the programming of turning that into technical innovation.\n\nLINDSEY: Which leads me back to you, Ashley. Can you tell us a little bit about your pre-thoughtbot research, like, both, like, how you approached it and maybe even some things that you learned that have helped you with your early direction?\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, absolutely. So, initially, just did a lot of industry research, just general population research, and then became a little bit more focused on solving problems for families in the U.S. right now. So, narrowing down that market scope. \n\nAnd then, our focus right now is drilling into: how can we serve parents, students at each phase of their journey as parents or students, making sure that we are adding value as we're creating a service to help attack saving for college in a really effective way that is easy to do and is also going to help somebody be financially prepared to pay for a really expensive price tag without having to rely on student loans?\n\nAnd so, we're doing a lot of focused research right now, building on what I did in grad school with professors and mentors and experts there, but being more focused and intentional around understanding each phase of the customer journey. So, whether you're a new parent, maybe a parent of kids that are a little older, or a parent of kids that are about to go to college or in college, how are we providing value at each stage of that journey? And so, we're really focusing in with customer interviews, understanding the pain points, and understanding what value is lacking as we think about building something that people want and like to use.\n\nLINDSEY: In that early research, is there anything you learned or, like, positive signals you got as you were talking to people where it gave you a motivation to keep going, like, there is a good idea here to follow?\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, there have been some ideas that we're finding are just absolutely terrible, and they're just not going to work, which is good to know now before we spend a lot of time chasing something that's not going to be helpful. And also really finding some interesting patterns among conversations. We're digging in a little more where, initially, we thought, oh, nobody cares about that, or, oh, that's not a big deal. That's not a pain point, but actually, it is. \n\nSo, Jordyn, with her experience as a founder in prior experiences she's been able to use what she learned that maybe went well or didn't go as well as she had hoped and apply that learning to what we're doing together on this particular project. And so, that's super valuable, helps me avoid some rookie mistakes, and definitely prevents us from wasting a lot of time and resources that probably would have been wasted otherwise. \n\nLINDSEY: Jordyn, can you tell me a little bit more about the kickoff, where we are? Because this is early, early days, where, you know, maybe a week in. You know, what does that initial kickoff with the founder look like? What are you doing?\n\nJORDYN: Yeah. So, the first few days are really spent...we as a team on the thoughtbot side need to get to the place where we know everything the founder knows to date. So, it's very intense, a lot of, like, resource sharing, research sharing, conversations, a lot of elliptical conversations where Ashley will tell us something, we'll all go off and do some digging and some research, and come back and be like, ask her some questions, where she's like, [laughs] \"If you recall, I said that to you,\" you know. \n\nBut, basically, it's one of those sort of processes where you don't know what you don't know. You start to understand. You come back, you ask questions, you dig. And the process is really about figuring out: where are the holes? So, Ashley has done a ton of really great work. She is but one person who has had divided attention. So, there are some places where we have some assumptions, all of us as individuals, and Ashley, specifically as a founder, has some assumptions about this problem space that we haven't validated yet. We haven't validated or invalidated. That's really what we're looking for. \n\nIt's like, is this hunch correct, incorrect? How do we know? So, we're really in those first few days are listening for those assumptions, for those untested assumptions. There's a ton of stuff in there where she's just like, I know the answer to this already. Here's what I know, and here's how I know it. Great, cool, validated, got it. But there's this other set of things that really then becomes the focus of the subsequent weeks of work. \n\nAnd often, we find what those assumptions center around are early adopter market characteristics. There's the big vision, right? Which we don't doubt. Basically like, we do not disagree that paying for college is a huge problem. The student debt crisis is huge. There's a million ways to go about addressing that problem. How are we going to, from where we are right now, lay a pathway where we build value upon value? We find something valuable to give the market where it is right now, where we are right now, and then we build from that. \n\nAnd so, you know, there's assumptions about who needs this, who wants this, who's struggling to pay for college, who's having no problem at all paying for college. But what we're trying to do is sort of zoom in on that group of folks, very tiny, specific group of folks who are having this problem the most acutely in a way that we are best situated to address. That's the magic we're trying to do. \n\nSo, it's really those early days are about listening to what Ashley knows, going out into the market, doing some research, follow-up research, but then really trying to come up with an early adopter hypothesis. And then immediately, as quickly as possible, interviewing as many of those people as we can so that we can validate or invalidate the assumptions we have about them. So, that's really the phase that we just started. Like, today and yesterday, we just started interviewing.\n\nWe have our first sort of hypothesis about...Ashley mentioned the journey of, like, beginning of child's life. Maybe, as a parent, I have aspirations for this child to go to college. Where do I start saving? You know, that end of the journey all the way to I am actively paying for a college education right now. Where in that journey are the pain points? And can we focus specifically on a particular group of people at a particular moment in that journey in order to provide maximum value right now and then expand from there? \n\nSo, we're doing a bunch of interviewing. I had a customer persona interview right before coming to this. You immediately start learning. There's just no substitute for it. The thing I tell founders constantly and I just sound like an absolute broken record, but you got to talk to people. You got to start talking to them now. You got to keep talking to them. You got to think hard and creatively about what you're hearing and who they are. And that's really the work that we're doing together right now.\n\nLINDSEY: Exciting. [crosstalk 15:04] Ashley, I was going to say how is this kickoff then for you?\n\nASHLEY: Really good. One thing Lindsey and team have brought to the table, especially thinking about me working as a solo founder, is just around the fact that everybody has different perspectives. And we all have different expertise and different experiences that we're bringing to the table. So, the way that I've been thinking about a problem could be 180 from the way Jordyn's thinking about it or some other folks on our team. \n\nAnd it's really interesting to have to really test a lot of these assumptions. I'm like, oh yeah, everybody thinks this way. Oh yeah, everybody does this. And it turns out I'm the only one, or maybe only a couple of us in the group are aligning with that perspective. And so, it has been so valuable as a solo founder to have a team of people researching the same problem from a different perspective. So, I just wanted to add that.\n\nLINDSEY: No, that's a great one. And that is sometimes challenging, I think, for the founders. I don't know if you're finding this when you're just getting started. But as you go through the process, things that you have maybe held to be true or facts you end up finding out are assumptions, or maybe assumptions that are false. Which also reminds me of Jordyn: you were telling me something very interesting that you're doing during this incubator, which is founder emotions mapping.\n\nJORDYN: [laughs] Yeah.\n\nLINDSEY: What is this? \n\nJORDYN: Yeah, we've got this project roadmap visualization. It's a Gantt chart. Y'all, it is a Gantt chart. And it basically just lays out, broadly speaking, what we're going to do together on what timeline. It helps us, together, visualize where we're going, where we are, and what we need to do in between so that we don't lose sight of that. \n\nAnd this time, it was the first time that we added...we had this sort of insight that we should add an emotions workstream [laughs] because so much of the early stage is just an emotional rollercoaster because you are learning so much so fast. And if you're lucky and you immediately go into innovation, delivery, learning more, scaling, right? It's this very fast loop. And it's not just that you're learning stuff about your market really quickly. You're learning stuff about yourself and about the work. The learning curve is just really steep. \n\nAnd we had realized that you end up going through this cycle of emotions that's pretty predictable [chuckles], and that's great, right? We want founders to know that their emotions...not only are their emotions, like, totally valid, we wanted to welcome them in a little bit more than we have in the past. \n\nSo, we added this little emotions work stream that was basically just like, hey, first week, first few days of kickoff, you're going to feel like a million bucks. You're like, yes, I know some stuff. I finally got a team working on this with me. To the moon, right? Like, you got this, like, very optimistic, exuberant kind [laughs] of attitude. \n\nImmediately, you start hearing perspectives you hadn't heard before in your problem space. You start uncovering contrary evidence. We start talking to people. Immediately, you start to learn things that you didn't know you didn't know, right? So, up until this moment, you've just had some blinders on, and you're like, the path is clear, and it is amazing. I'm just going to motor my way to success. \n\nAnd our process is about really taking those blinders off and figuring out what is actually around me on this road? Are there words of attackers coming at me from the sides? Like, I need to know those things, right? But what happens is you start to know what you don't know. And so, there's this dip. You start off very optimistic, and then you have a week or two of declining mood where you're mortified. You learn that you had some assumptions that are not valid. There's some other risks and things lying out there in the market. It's truly mortifying. \n\nMaybe you learn about a competitor you didn't know about because you just weren't searching the right words, or whatever it is, right? That moment a lot of founders are just like, the moment I discovered my first real competitor, and I had, like, a panic attack, right? That happened to me. \n\nBut then you start to make a plan around those things, okay, cool. Like, maybe we need to differentiate ourselves. Maybe there is some more information we need to figure out about how to go after this, et cetera. And you start that slow climb of dealing with the new information that you have, right? And filling in those gaps [inaudible 19:22]. \n\nThen you start to climb out of the hole, right? You're like, okay, we got a plan. I got a team. We're doing the work. Awesome. You learn new, really exciting things. And then you end up back on that, like, high where you're like, this is so awesome. We have the best idea. And now we know everything there is to know. But no, no, you've just reached a new plateau [laughs]. And there are more things to be learned and more things...So, it's this really predictable cycle, and that's fine. That's good. You wouldn't be here if you didn't care about the problem space, right? If you weren't passionate about it. \n\nAnd so, we really wanted to actually call that out this time and make space for it and put it on the map. Hey, we might be feeling this way right now, just heads up. That's okay. We're going to be feeling really great in a week. And then, the week after that, we're going to be feeling [laughs] like garbage again. It's okay. Because knowing that really makes you feel. \n\nAnd it took me a long time as a first-time founder to realize that, like, my moment-to-moment emotional experience is...I need to make space for it. It is what it is. But it is not the story of my business. And it's a thing you just kind of have to learn after going through a bunch of those cycles. But, like, part of what we're trying to do with the incubator is help founders not fall in those potholes, not make the rookie mistakes, as Ashley put it. \n\nAnd one of those rookie mistakes is thinking that the first time you identify a direct competitor, everything that you've been working toward for the last year is useless, and you should quit, and everyone thinks you're a fool, and, like, whatever crazy narrative you [laughs] have going on in your mind [laughs]. We're kind of here to be like, it's okay. This is to be expected: onward and upward. The hard work continues. \n\nSo yeah, it's very fun. At some point, we will publish a little version of this visualization with our little cycle of feelings on the bottom. But it reminds us to make space for them in the conversation when we are doing those check-ins. Like, here we are on this roadmap, and here's where our feelings may or may not be.\n\nASHLEY: Her recap for day one is spot on. I left that conversation; I walked out of my office and told my husband, I said, \"Listen, we're going to solve the student debt crisis. We're going to.\" And he was like, \"Really? Okay.\" And I was like, \"Yeah, we are.\" And then, like, two days later, I was like, \"No, we are not going to be effective at this.\" And then, the next day, I was like, \"No, I fixed it. We fixed it. It's fine.\" So, being able to reference that chart is really helpful and validating for me as a person to be like: I should be feeling like this; yes, I do. Perfect, you know, I'm right on track. \n\nAnd I think, too, as a founder, and especially as a female founder, you are expected to just keep it together. Maybe that's a self-imposed belief. But when you think about the fact that female CEOs only have about 2% of the venture capital funding, it's like, you know, why would I ever raise a red flag for myself by letting my emotions be part of the conversation or letting my emotions even have a place in the business I'm building? And so, for her to say, \"Listen, no, that's a really important part of this journey; we need to talk about it and make space for it,\" is really liberating. \n\nAnd I think, too, just when you think about what has happened with the pandemic and all the awareness around mental health and behavioral health, and making sure that we're making time for managing emotions has been more important than ever. We see the research that if you don't manage those emotions, they're going to manage you. So, find a productive way to do it. Work with your team and find support in a way that works for you or a productive way to just kind of get some stress out without having to just internalize everything because that never works out. \n\nSo, it's been really great to have her be able to bring that as part of our conversation and our project plan and make sure that it's a relevant piece.\n\nLINDSEY: Very well said. And I'm so glad you did bring up that point about being women founders, and, you know, having more of a, you know, an uphill battle and feeling that emotions are a sign of weakness or a sign that you don't know what you're doing. We have more impostor syndrome because of these outside factors like lack of funding, you know, lack of support. So, it's really great for you to share that and hopefully inspire others. In fact, we got a comment: \"Ashley, your drive and ambition to solve a huge issue in our country is so inspiring.\" Thank you --\n\nASHLEY: Oh, thank you.\n\nLINDSEY: For adding that comment, folks who are following along. So, it sounds like, for you, the emotion mapping is a positive experience, where it's helping you kind of ground yourself as, even these early days, some assumptions are being challenged, or you're seeing some challenges in the business idea.\n\nASHLEY: Oh yeah, absolutely. Circling back to the thoughtbot team, couldn't do this without them in a really tactical and effective way. Because they have the experience and the skills that I don't have, and us working together on this same problem has been incredible.\n\nLINDSEY: How did you come to get connected with the incubator and thoughtbot and submitting that application?\n\nASHLEY: Yeah. So, I'm part of the Harvard Innovation Lab, which is the innovation program at Harvard for all the students. And somebody was talking about this incubator program, and there are a lot of incubator programs out there. And so, initially, I thought, oh okay, well, this will be just, like, all the others and probably not what I'm looking for. But I did some research and looked at the website and read more about the program and thought, oh my gosh, this is exactly what I've been looking for and didn't know existed because it is that one-on-one support, and most incubator or accelerator programs you're one of many companies going through the process. \n\nAnd so, the feedback I have from others who have gone through similar paths is it's great, and it's nice to have a cohort. But at the same time, you're largely figuring things out for yourself, which I was doing anyway. So, I was like, well, what value is that going to bring? This is a one-on-one experience. There's a team dedicated to working on this solution, problem, et cetera with me. \n\nAnd I'm just so thankful that there are software developers and designers that are interested in helping me tackle this challenge also. So, that was really exciting to have other people also excited about the same problem but able to bring different skill sets to the table to actually bring this to life.\n\nLINDSEY: Oh, that's great. Thanks for sharing. All right, so nearing the end of our chat here. Jordyn, what is next? I think we're going to check back in in a couple of weeks. What might those weeks include?\n\nJORDYN: Well, as I mentioned, we really began customer interviewing...I say customer, and this is really...often, it means a lot of things. It means interviewing people who might be users, people who might be customers, people who might be partners in what we're building. And we are just going to learn so much so quickly. We're going to invalidate a lot of things. We're going to come up with new ideas. So like, we will be different humans with a different perspective on the world in two weeks, which is really exciting. \n\nBut really, so this effort is really about learning how to have your audience lead you. And it isn't about just listening to your audience. So, when they say like, \"Make the button blue,\" you're like, \"Okay, blue button, you got it.\" It's like actually hearing about their lives and their pain points and then innovating. They're not software developers, your audience typically, so they aren't solving this problem themselves. It's up to you to translate what you're hearing into something innovative. \n\nI think a standard metaphor here or example–I guess it's more like a case study—is, like, the famous Ford quote that, like, if he had pulled people and asked them what they wanted, they would have said faster horses, not a car, right? So, it's like, you got to look at the landscape, look at what's possible, maybe new things are possible technically, right? And so, we can solve this problem better, a problem that we know humans have, which is paying for college, or, in Ford's case, getting from point A to point B quickly. \n\nSo, it's really our job to listen and let what we're hearing from the audience be our guide, but not just, like, sort of take dictation, right? And that's where the skill and having done this lots of times comes in. So, that's what we're going to be doing in the next two weeks. We're going to be listening very closely, iterating on the questions that we're asking and who we're asking them to. And out of that will emerge the strategically sound innovation path, and it never fails to work. I cannot stress enough that if you talk to [laughs] people and you listen to them, opportunities become very clear. \n\nSo, if any of you out there are nursing an idea that you've been nursing for a while, and you're like, I'm not ready to talk to people about it; I need to think about it longer, nope. Talk to people about it today, please. Will you screw that conversation up? Yep. But the sooner you have it, the sooner you'll screw it up and learn from it. The longer you wait, the more your assumptions build, and then it gets very tense and very wrong. And you could really think yourself off into, like, a very weird place. \n\nSo, I encourage you all to do your research; talk to people about what you're thinking, what you're working on, the people for whom it matters. And that is what we are going to be doing for the next two weeks, and then is what Ashley is going to be doing for the rest of the life of this company because you never stop. It's not a thing. You don't do, like, a customer research sprint, and then you stop. If you stop doing that, you stop innovating, and then other people in the market overtake you. Sorry, I feel passionate about this issue [laughs].\n\nLINDSEY: No, that's good. That's a quick pitch at the end here for everyone to apply to the next session incubator. Start getting the idea and the research you've been doing together. This could be you. So, hope you'll join us again in two weeks as we catch up. And yeah, as Jordyn said, things are going to be...there'll be so many insights in that amount of time. I almost started laughing after I asked, like, what will happen in two weeks? Because I know it's going to be so different, you know, day to day you all are doing so much work, learning so much. So, I'm really excited to learn about that. \n\nSo, stay tuned with us here in two weeks. We'll also be posting updates to the thoughtbot blog: thoughtbot.com/blog. And just really looking forward to following along with your journey, Ashley. Thank you so much for joining and sharing today. \n\nASHLEY: Yeah, thank you for having me.\n\nLINDSEY: Jordyn, thank you as always.\n\nJORDYN: Of course.\n\nLINDSEY: And thank you, audience. Everyone have a fantastic day.\n\nDid you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.\n\nMore info on our website at tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.Special Guests: Ashley Sheble and Jordyn Bonds.","content_html":"Lindsey Christensen is back as the Marketing Lead at thoughtbot! She's joined by guests Jordyn Bonds, the Director of Product Strategy at thoughtbot, and Ashley Sheble, a founder currently participating in thoughtbot's eight-week startup incubator, to discuss the multifaceted journey of entrepreneurship.
\n\nthoughtbot's Incubator Program aims to help founders like Ashley turn an idea into a viable product. They're currently at the stage of validating assumptions about the problem space and target market. Jordyn introduces a new concept: a project roadmap visualization that includes an "emotions workstream." This is designed to help founders anticipate and navigate the emotional rollercoaster often associated with the early stages of startup development.
\n\nAshley finds the roadmap valuable, especially as it challenges her to examine her ideas from multiple perspectives. She appreciates the one-on-one support from the Incubator team, which complements her own expertise. She also speaks to the liberating aspect of acknowledging emotions in the startup journey, which is especially pertinent for female founders who often face additional challenges like lack of funding.
\n\nJordyn emphasizes the importance of early and continuous customer engagement for product validation and innovation. She encourages aspiring entrepreneurs to talk to potential customers as soon as possible to iterate and learn from these interactions. Jordan and Ashley stress that embracing the logical and emotional aspects of entrepreneurship leads to more effective and grounded decision-making.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nLINDSEY: All right, we are live. So, thank you for joining us today. So, we've got a new founder that's going through thoughtbot's startup incubator. And we're going to be checking in with her as she goes through the program, learning what she learns, learning about the process.
\n\nQuick reminder: thoughtbot is a development and design company. We help founders and existing companies create, launch, and improve amazing products and their teams. And one way we do that is through our startup incubator. The incubator is an eight-week program. And our second session just kicked off, which we're going to be talking about a whole lot today.
\n\nSo, I'm excited to introduce you to the founder that's going through that process, as well as our fearless leader of the incubator program, Jordyn, I myself, Lindsey Christensen. I'm the Marketing Lead here at thoughtbot. I'll be asking lots of questions. But if you also have questions, please enter them in the chat, and we'll get to those as well. Before we get to Ashley, I'm going to start off with Jordyn. For those who may not be familiar with you, can you tell us who you are and what you're doing?
\n\nJORDYN: I am Jordyn Bonds. And I am the Director of Product Strategy on thoughtbot's, Ignite team, which is the team that is kind of experimenting with this incubator, shall we say. And I am a two-time startup founder myself. I've worked at other early-stage startups as initial head of product. Long ago, I spent ten years as a software engineer. So, that's my distant background. And I live in Boston.
\n\nLINDSEY: Oh, we got our first comment. Someone says, "Thanks for sharing your experience." Thank you. Welcome. Love that. Keep the comments and questions coming.
\n\nOkay. And now for our latest guest of honor. Ashley, can you introduce yourself to the audience? A little bit about you and maybe even about your journey to bring you here today.
\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, absolutely. So, hi, everybody. My name is Ashley Sheble. I'm currently based in Houston, Texas. I have about 15 years of experience in sales and operations roles. And I have two kids. I've got one who started third grade yesterday and one who started her senior year of high school yesterday, which is crazy. Time really flies by.
\n\nBut the reason why that's relevant for this conversation is because I have attended so many college tours over the past few years and started learning about just how expensive higher education has become. I had no idea that a public four-year in-state school could cost $100,000 plus for just four years. And then, you start looking at out-of-state and private schools, and that number doubles, which is crazy to me.
\n\nSo, after I got through that initial sticker shock, I was like, how is this possible? Like, now I understand why the student debt crisis is happening. And became really passionate about learning more about it and trying to figure out ways that I could help. Because obviously, the solutions and tools we have today to help people prepare for the education they or their children or family members need or want just aren't working. So, became really excited about that and working with thoughtbot as their second founder to explore this further.
\n\nLINDSEY: Amazing. So, Ashley, fighting the good fight. Student debt, I know, a topic near and dear to many people who are dealing with this. You mentioned your kid's journey to college is what started the idea. Let's dig into that a little bit more. How are you approaching the challenge, the problems that you see? Or maybe, like, how long it's been that you've been kind of playing around with this idea.
\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm in a graduate school program and have used this as an opportunity to really explore different ways to attack problems. I became really interested in innovation and entrepreneurship at grad school and began just doing research, learning about ways to solve really big, complex problems, and found that technology could really be an interesting way to approach the student debt problem differently than what's been done before.
\n\nIt's an industry that has largely lacked innovation, and have been working with professors and experts just to think about ways to apply technology to this really complicated problem to provide a more simple solution for people who just want to pay for school.
\n\nLINDSEY: And this is your first time being a founder. Is that right?
\n\nASHLEY: It is. So, thank goodness for thoughtbot being my partner here because I'm not a technical person, meaning I don't develop software. I'm not a software designer, and knew that that was going to be a critical piece of developing a solution. And so, I'm grateful for the opportunity to work with Jordyn and her team.
\n\nLINDSEY: Have you, like, always thought you would, at some point, start your own thing? You know, have you always been entrepreneurial?
\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, I think so. I can tell you my first business started in third grade. I launched my babysitting venture and marketed my services all over the neighborhood and church, and wherever would allow me to hang up a flyer, and had a pretty steady book of business, if you will. And in hindsight, I really cannot believe that parents allowed a 10-year-old to babysit their kids. You know, maybe in the '90s there were fewer questions–definitely less legal restrictions around age.
\n\nLINDSEY: The '90s were wild.
\n\nASHLEY: The '90s were wild, yeah. Maybe I just seemed mature and responsible. I don't know. I don't know.
\n\nLINDSEY: Amazing. All right. Jordyn, so Ashley submitted for the thoughtbot incubator. What stood out to you in that application? And why did she seem like, you know, the right fit to go through the program?
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, Ashley's application was just totally...it had that combination of prepared, done her homework, done the work to present the story well, but also clearly had a passion and a connection to the problem space. It wasn't just, like, a purely academic exercise for her, and just came prepared–really gave thoughtful answers in the application. There's a number of interviews that happened during the application process. She showed up with bells on and asked really good questions, which is something we always look for from founders as well. And she just knocked it out of the park.
\n\nASHLEY: Thank you.
\n\nLINDSEY: And why was maybe where she is in her business or product journey a good fit for the incubator?
\n\nJORDYN: Great question. So, we sit at a really special moment, which is usually founders are coming to us, well, hopefully, founders are coming to us pre-product. So, they have not built a thing yet. They're basically at that moment where they've identified an opportunity. They've given it lots of thought, done a ton of research, maybe started talking to people about it.
\n\nBut they're not sure how to take an idea, an opportunity, and what happens between that moment and innovation, actually a plan for a product, a strategic plan for product, and the ability to execute on that. There's a big gap there in understanding, especially for first-time founders. It certainly was a gap for me as a [laughs] first-time founder. That's the ideal candidate for us.
\n\nThat said, we do have folks coming to the incubator who are interested in executing, like, a strategic pivot. Maybe they've found that the first thing they did was just, like, a market flop, and they basically want to do the programming. They're sort of starting over. Maybe they have a little bit...they're basically like, "Hey, we disqualified one idea. [laughs] We would like to come up with some other options." Those folks are also a good fit. And that is exactly the moment that Ashley is at. She's done a lot of great research so far–has a really interesting idea, interesting take on an interesting problem, but could really benefit from the programming of turning that into technical innovation.
\n\nLINDSEY: Which leads me back to you, Ashley. Can you tell us a little bit about your pre-thoughtbot research, like, both, like, how you approached it and maybe even some things that you learned that have helped you with your early direction?
\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, absolutely. So, initially, just did a lot of industry research, just general population research, and then became a little bit more focused on solving problems for families in the U.S. right now. So, narrowing down that market scope.
\n\nAnd then, our focus right now is drilling into: how can we serve parents, students at each phase of their journey as parents or students, making sure that we are adding value as we're creating a service to help attack saving for college in a really effective way that is easy to do and is also going to help somebody be financially prepared to pay for a really expensive price tag without having to rely on student loans?
\n\nAnd so, we're doing a lot of focused research right now, building on what I did in grad school with professors and mentors and experts there, but being more focused and intentional around understanding each phase of the customer journey. So, whether you're a new parent, maybe a parent of kids that are a little older, or a parent of kids that are about to go to college or in college, how are we providing value at each stage of that journey? And so, we're really focusing in with customer interviews, understanding the pain points, and understanding what value is lacking as we think about building something that people want and like to use.
\n\nLINDSEY: In that early research, is there anything you learned or, like, positive signals you got as you were talking to people where it gave you a motivation to keep going, like, there is a good idea here to follow?
\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, there have been some ideas that we're finding are just absolutely terrible, and they're just not going to work, which is good to know now before we spend a lot of time chasing something that's not going to be helpful. And also really finding some interesting patterns among conversations. We're digging in a little more where, initially, we thought, oh, nobody cares about that, or, oh, that's not a big deal. That's not a pain point, but actually, it is.
\n\nSo, Jordyn, with her experience as a founder in prior experiences she's been able to use what she learned that maybe went well or didn't go as well as she had hoped and apply that learning to what we're doing together on this particular project. And so, that's super valuable, helps me avoid some rookie mistakes, and definitely prevents us from wasting a lot of time and resources that probably would have been wasted otherwise.
\n\nLINDSEY: Jordyn, can you tell me a little bit more about the kickoff, where we are? Because this is early, early days, where, you know, maybe a week in. You know, what does that initial kickoff with the founder look like? What are you doing?
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah. So, the first few days are really spent...we as a team on the thoughtbot side need to get to the place where we know everything the founder knows to date. So, it's very intense, a lot of, like, resource sharing, research sharing, conversations, a lot of elliptical conversations where Ashley will tell us something, we'll all go off and do some digging and some research, and come back and be like, ask her some questions, where she's like, [laughs] "If you recall, I said that to you," you know.
\n\nBut, basically, it's one of those sort of processes where you don't know what you don't know. You start to understand. You come back, you ask questions, you dig. And the process is really about figuring out: where are the holes? So, Ashley has done a ton of really great work. She is but one person who has had divided attention. So, there are some places where we have some assumptions, all of us as individuals, and Ashley, specifically as a founder, has some assumptions about this problem space that we haven't validated yet. We haven't validated or invalidated. That's really what we're looking for.
\n\nIt's like, is this hunch correct, incorrect? How do we know? So, we're really in those first few days are listening for those assumptions, for those untested assumptions. There's a ton of stuff in there where she's just like, I know the answer to this already. Here's what I know, and here's how I know it. Great, cool, validated, got it. But there's this other set of things that really then becomes the focus of the subsequent weeks of work.
\n\nAnd often, we find what those assumptions center around are early adopter market characteristics. There's the big vision, right? Which we don't doubt. Basically like, we do not disagree that paying for college is a huge problem. The student debt crisis is huge. There's a million ways to go about addressing that problem. How are we going to, from where we are right now, lay a pathway where we build value upon value? We find something valuable to give the market where it is right now, where we are right now, and then we build from that.
\n\nAnd so, you know, there's assumptions about who needs this, who wants this, who's struggling to pay for college, who's having no problem at all paying for college. But what we're trying to do is sort of zoom in on that group of folks, very tiny, specific group of folks who are having this problem the most acutely in a way that we are best situated to address. That's the magic we're trying to do.
\n\nSo, it's really those early days are about listening to what Ashley knows, going out into the market, doing some research, follow-up research, but then really trying to come up with an early adopter hypothesis. And then immediately, as quickly as possible, interviewing as many of those people as we can so that we can validate or invalidate the assumptions we have about them. So, that's really the phase that we just started. Like, today and yesterday, we just started interviewing.
\n\nWe have our first sort of hypothesis about...Ashley mentioned the journey of, like, beginning of child's life. Maybe, as a parent, I have aspirations for this child to go to college. Where do I start saving? You know, that end of the journey all the way to I am actively paying for a college education right now. Where in that journey are the pain points? And can we focus specifically on a particular group of people at a particular moment in that journey in order to provide maximum value right now and then expand from there?
\n\nSo, we're doing a bunch of interviewing. I had a customer persona interview right before coming to this. You immediately start learning. There's just no substitute for it. The thing I tell founders constantly and I just sound like an absolute broken record, but you got to talk to people. You got to start talking to them now. You got to keep talking to them. You got to think hard and creatively about what you're hearing and who they are. And that's really the work that we're doing together right now.
\n\nLINDSEY: Exciting. [crosstalk 15:04] Ashley, I was going to say how is this kickoff then for you?
\n\nASHLEY: Really good. One thing Lindsey and team have brought to the table, especially thinking about me working as a solo founder, is just around the fact that everybody has different perspectives. And we all have different expertise and different experiences that we're bringing to the table. So, the way that I've been thinking about a problem could be 180 from the way Jordyn's thinking about it or some other folks on our team.
\n\nAnd it's really interesting to have to really test a lot of these assumptions. I'm like, oh yeah, everybody thinks this way. Oh yeah, everybody does this. And it turns out I'm the only one, or maybe only a couple of us in the group are aligning with that perspective. And so, it has been so valuable as a solo founder to have a team of people researching the same problem from a different perspective. So, I just wanted to add that.
\n\nLINDSEY: No, that's a great one. And that is sometimes challenging, I think, for the founders. I don't know if you're finding this when you're just getting started. But as you go through the process, things that you have maybe held to be true or facts you end up finding out are assumptions, or maybe assumptions that are false. Which also reminds me of Jordyn: you were telling me something very interesting that you're doing during this incubator, which is founder emotions mapping.
\n\nJORDYN: [laughs] Yeah.
\n\nLINDSEY: What is this?
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, we've got this project roadmap visualization. It's a Gantt chart. Y'all, it is a Gantt chart. And it basically just lays out, broadly speaking, what we're going to do together on what timeline. It helps us, together, visualize where we're going, where we are, and what we need to do in between so that we don't lose sight of that.
\n\nAnd this time, it was the first time that we added...we had this sort of insight that we should add an emotions workstream [laughs] because so much of the early stage is just an emotional rollercoaster because you are learning so much so fast. And if you're lucky and you immediately go into innovation, delivery, learning more, scaling, right? It's this very fast loop. And it's not just that you're learning stuff about your market really quickly. You're learning stuff about yourself and about the work. The learning curve is just really steep.
\n\nAnd we had realized that you end up going through this cycle of emotions that's pretty predictable [chuckles], and that's great, right? We want founders to know that their emotions...not only are their emotions, like, totally valid, we wanted to welcome them in a little bit more than we have in the past.
\n\nSo, we added this little emotions work stream that was basically just like, hey, first week, first few days of kickoff, you're going to feel like a million bucks. You're like, yes, I know some stuff. I finally got a team working on this with me. To the moon, right? Like, you got this, like, very optimistic, exuberant kind [laughs] of attitude.
\n\nImmediately, you start hearing perspectives you hadn't heard before in your problem space. You start uncovering contrary evidence. We start talking to people. Immediately, you start to learn things that you didn't know you didn't know, right? So, up until this moment, you've just had some blinders on, and you're like, the path is clear, and it is amazing. I'm just going to motor my way to success.
\n\nAnd our process is about really taking those blinders off and figuring out what is actually around me on this road? Are there words of attackers coming at me from the sides? Like, I need to know those things, right? But what happens is you start to know what you don't know. And so, there's this dip. You start off very optimistic, and then you have a week or two of declining mood where you're mortified. You learn that you had some assumptions that are not valid. There's some other risks and things lying out there in the market. It's truly mortifying.
\n\nMaybe you learn about a competitor you didn't know about because you just weren't searching the right words, or whatever it is, right? That moment a lot of founders are just like, the moment I discovered my first real competitor, and I had, like, a panic attack, right? That happened to me.
\n\nBut then you start to make a plan around those things, okay, cool. Like, maybe we need to differentiate ourselves. Maybe there is some more information we need to figure out about how to go after this, et cetera. And you start that slow climb of dealing with the new information that you have, right? And filling in those gaps [inaudible 19:22].
\n\nThen you start to climb out of the hole, right? You're like, okay, we got a plan. I got a team. We're doing the work. Awesome. You learn new, really exciting things. And then you end up back on that, like, high where you're like, this is so awesome. We have the best idea. And now we know everything there is to know. But no, no, you've just reached a new plateau [laughs]. And there are more things to be learned and more things...So, it's this really predictable cycle, and that's fine. That's good. You wouldn't be here if you didn't care about the problem space, right? If you weren't passionate about it.
\n\nAnd so, we really wanted to actually call that out this time and make space for it and put it on the map. Hey, we might be feeling this way right now, just heads up. That's okay. We're going to be feeling really great in a week. And then, the week after that, we're going to be feeling [laughs] like garbage again. It's okay. Because knowing that really makes you feel.
\n\nAnd it took me a long time as a first-time founder to realize that, like, my moment-to-moment emotional experience is...I need to make space for it. It is what it is. But it is not the story of my business. And it's a thing you just kind of have to learn after going through a bunch of those cycles. But, like, part of what we're trying to do with the incubator is help founders not fall in those potholes, not make the rookie mistakes, as Ashley put it.
\n\nAnd one of those rookie mistakes is thinking that the first time you identify a direct competitor, everything that you've been working toward for the last year is useless, and you should quit, and everyone thinks you're a fool, and, like, whatever crazy narrative you [laughs] have going on in your mind [laughs]. We're kind of here to be like, it's okay. This is to be expected: onward and upward. The hard work continues.
\n\nSo yeah, it's very fun. At some point, we will publish a little version of this visualization with our little cycle of feelings on the bottom. But it reminds us to make space for them in the conversation when we are doing those check-ins. Like, here we are on this roadmap, and here's where our feelings may or may not be.
\n\nASHLEY: Her recap for day one is spot on. I left that conversation; I walked out of my office and told my husband, I said, "Listen, we're going to solve the student debt crisis. We're going to." And he was like, "Really? Okay." And I was like, "Yeah, we are." And then, like, two days later, I was like, "No, we are not going to be effective at this." And then, the next day, I was like, "No, I fixed it. We fixed it. It's fine." So, being able to reference that chart is really helpful and validating for me as a person to be like: I should be feeling like this; yes, I do. Perfect, you know, I'm right on track.
\n\nAnd I think, too, as a founder, and especially as a female founder, you are expected to just keep it together. Maybe that's a self-imposed belief. But when you think about the fact that female CEOs only have about 2% of the venture capital funding, it's like, you know, why would I ever raise a red flag for myself by letting my emotions be part of the conversation or letting my emotions even have a place in the business I'm building? And so, for her to say, "Listen, no, that's a really important part of this journey; we need to talk about it and make space for it," is really liberating.
\n\nAnd I think, too, just when you think about what has happened with the pandemic and all the awareness around mental health and behavioral health, and making sure that we're making time for managing emotions has been more important than ever. We see the research that if you don't manage those emotions, they're going to manage you. So, find a productive way to do it. Work with your team and find support in a way that works for you or a productive way to just kind of get some stress out without having to just internalize everything because that never works out.
\n\nSo, it's been really great to have her be able to bring that as part of our conversation and our project plan and make sure that it's a relevant piece.
\n\nLINDSEY: Very well said. And I'm so glad you did bring up that point about being women founders, and, you know, having more of a, you know, an uphill battle and feeling that emotions are a sign of weakness or a sign that you don't know what you're doing. We have more impostor syndrome because of these outside factors like lack of funding, you know, lack of support. So, it's really great for you to share that and hopefully inspire others. In fact, we got a comment: "Ashley, your drive and ambition to solve a huge issue in our country is so inspiring." Thank you --
\n\nASHLEY: Oh, thank you.
\n\nLINDSEY: For adding that comment, folks who are following along. So, it sounds like, for you, the emotion mapping is a positive experience, where it's helping you kind of ground yourself as, even these early days, some assumptions are being challenged, or you're seeing some challenges in the business idea.
\n\nASHLEY: Oh yeah, absolutely. Circling back to the thoughtbot team, couldn't do this without them in a really tactical and effective way. Because they have the experience and the skills that I don't have, and us working together on this same problem has been incredible.
\n\nLINDSEY: How did you come to get connected with the incubator and thoughtbot and submitting that application?
\n\nASHLEY: Yeah. So, I'm part of the Harvard Innovation Lab, which is the innovation program at Harvard for all the students. And somebody was talking about this incubator program, and there are a lot of incubator programs out there. And so, initially, I thought, oh okay, well, this will be just, like, all the others and probably not what I'm looking for. But I did some research and looked at the website and read more about the program and thought, oh my gosh, this is exactly what I've been looking for and didn't know existed because it is that one-on-one support, and most incubator or accelerator programs you're one of many companies going through the process.
\n\nAnd so, the feedback I have from others who have gone through similar paths is it's great, and it's nice to have a cohort. But at the same time, you're largely figuring things out for yourself, which I was doing anyway. So, I was like, well, what value is that going to bring? This is a one-on-one experience. There's a team dedicated to working on this solution, problem, et cetera with me.
\n\nAnd I'm just so thankful that there are software developers and designers that are interested in helping me tackle this challenge also. So, that was really exciting to have other people also excited about the same problem but able to bring different skill sets to the table to actually bring this to life.
\n\nLINDSEY: Oh, that's great. Thanks for sharing. All right, so nearing the end of our chat here. Jordyn, what is next? I think we're going to check back in in a couple of weeks. What might those weeks include?
\n\nJORDYN: Well, as I mentioned, we really began customer interviewing...I say customer, and this is really...often, it means a lot of things. It means interviewing people who might be users, people who might be customers, people who might be partners in what we're building. And we are just going to learn so much so quickly. We're going to invalidate a lot of things. We're going to come up with new ideas. So like, we will be different humans with a different perspective on the world in two weeks, which is really exciting.
\n\nBut really, so this effort is really about learning how to have your audience lead you. And it isn't about just listening to your audience. So, when they say like, "Make the button blue," you're like, "Okay, blue button, you got it." It's like actually hearing about their lives and their pain points and then innovating. They're not software developers, your audience typically, so they aren't solving this problem themselves. It's up to you to translate what you're hearing into something innovative.
\n\nI think a standard metaphor here or example–I guess it's more like a case study—is, like, the famous Ford quote that, like, if he had pulled people and asked them what they wanted, they would have said faster horses, not a car, right? So, it's like, you got to look at the landscape, look at what's possible, maybe new things are possible technically, right? And so, we can solve this problem better, a problem that we know humans have, which is paying for college, or, in Ford's case, getting from point A to point B quickly.
\n\nSo, it's really our job to listen and let what we're hearing from the audience be our guide, but not just, like, sort of take dictation, right? And that's where the skill and having done this lots of times comes in. So, that's what we're going to be doing in the next two weeks. We're going to be listening very closely, iterating on the questions that we're asking and who we're asking them to. And out of that will emerge the strategically sound innovation path, and it never fails to work. I cannot stress enough that if you talk to [laughs] people and you listen to them, opportunities become very clear.
\n\nSo, if any of you out there are nursing an idea that you've been nursing for a while, and you're like, I'm not ready to talk to people about it; I need to think about it longer, nope. Talk to people about it today, please. Will you screw that conversation up? Yep. But the sooner you have it, the sooner you'll screw it up and learn from it. The longer you wait, the more your assumptions build, and then it gets very tense and very wrong. And you could really think yourself off into, like, a very weird place.
\n\nSo, I encourage you all to do your research; talk to people about what you're thinking, what you're working on, the people for whom it matters. And that is what we are going to be doing for the next two weeks, and then is what Ashley is going to be doing for the rest of the life of this company because you never stop. It's not a thing. You don't do, like, a customer research sprint, and then you stop. If you stop doing that, you stop innovating, and then other people in the market overtake you. Sorry, I feel passionate about this issue [laughs].
\n\nLINDSEY: No, that's good. That's a quick pitch at the end here for everyone to apply to the next session incubator. Start getting the idea and the research you've been doing together. This could be you. So, hope you'll join us again in two weeks as we catch up. And yeah, as Jordyn said, things are going to be...there'll be so many insights in that amount of time. I almost started laughing after I asked, like, what will happen in two weeks? Because I know it's going to be so different, you know, day to day you all are doing so much work, learning so much. So, I'm really excited to learn about that.
\n\nSo, stay tuned with us here in two weeks. We'll also be posting updates to the thoughtbot blog: thoughtbot.com/blog. And just really looking forward to following along with your journey, Ashley. Thank you so much for joining and sharing today.
\n\nASHLEY: Yeah, thank you for having me.
\n\nLINDSEY: Jordyn, thank you as always.
\n\nJORDYN: Of course.
\n\nLINDSEY: And thank you, audience. Everyone have a fantastic day.
\n\nDid you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.
\n\nMore info on our website at tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.
Special Guests: Ashley Sheble and Jordyn Bonds.
","summary":"Lindsey Christensen is back as the Marketing Lead at thoughtbot! She's joined by guests Jordyn Bonds, the Director of Product Strategy at thoughtbot, and Ashley Sheble, a founder currently participating in thoughtbot's eight-week startup incubator, to discuss the multifaceted journey of entrepreneurship. \r\n\r\nthoughtbot's Incubator Program aims to help founders like Ashley turn an idea into a viable product. They're currently at the stage of validating assumptions about the problem space and target market. Jordyn introduces a new concept: a project roadmap visualization that includes an \"emotions workstream.\" This is designed to help founders anticipate and navigate the emotional rollercoaster often associated with the early stages of startup development.\r\n\r\nAshley finds the roadmap valuable, especially as it challenges her to examine her ideas from multiple perspectives. She appreciates the one-on-one support from the Incubator team, which complements her own expertise. She also speaks to the liberating aspect of acknowledging emotions in the startup journey, which is especially pertinent for female founders who often face additional challenges like lack of funding.\r\n\r\nJordyn emphasizes the importance of early and continuous customer engagement for product validation and innovation. She encourages aspiring entrepreneurs to talk to potential customers as soon as possible to iterate and learn from these interactions. Jordan and Ashley stress that embracing the logical and emotional aspects of entrepreneurship leads to more effective and grounded decision-making.","date_published":"2023-11-01T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/89aa52e1-a052-4d03-9007-726f933a8cba.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":32262330,"duration_in_seconds":1838}]},{"id":"6bfba652-2dc5-4089-9cc2-c6c6020e73ab","title":"497: Axiom with Seif Lotfy","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/497","content_text":"Victoria is joined by guest co-host Joe Ferris, CTO at thoughtbot, and Seif Lotfy, the CTO and Co-Founder of Axiom. Seif discusses the journey, challenges, and strategies behind his data analytics and observability platform. \n\nSeif, who has a background in robotics and was a 2008 Sony AIBO robotic soccer world champion, shares that Axiom pivoted from being a Datadog competitor to focusing on logs and event data. The company even built its own logs database to provide a cost-effective solution for large-scale analytics. Seif is driven by his passion for his team and the invaluable feedback from the community, emphasizing that sales validate the effectiveness of a product. The conversation also delves into Axiom's shift in focus towards developers to address their need for better and more affordable observability tools.\n\nOn the business front, Seif reveals the company's challenges in scaling across multiple domains without compromising its core offerings. He discusses the importance of internal values like moving with urgency and high velocity to guide the company's future. Furthermore, he touches on the challenges and strategies of open-sourcing projects and advises avoiding platforms like Reddit and Hacker News to maintain focus. \n\n\n\n\nAxiom\nFollow Axiom on LinkedIn, X, GitHub, or Discord.\nFollow Seif Lotfy on LinkedIn or X. Visit his website at seif.codes.\nFollow thoughtbot on X or LinkedIn.\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido, and with me today is Seif Lotfy, CTO and Co-Founder of Axiom, the best home for your event data. Seif, thank you for joining me.\n\nSEIF: Hey, everybody. Thanks for having me. This is awesome. I love the name of the podcast, given that I used to compete in robotics.\n\nVICTORIA: What? All right, we're going to have to talk about that. And I also want to introduce a guest co-host today. Since we're talking about cloud, and observability, and data, I invited Joe Ferris, thoughtbot CTO and Director of Development of our platform engineering team, Mission Control. Welcome, Joe. How are you? \n\nJOE: Good, thanks. Good to be back again.\n\nVICTORIA: Okay. I am excited to talk to you all about observability. But I need to go back to Seif's comment on competing with robots. Can you tell me a little bit more about what robots you've built in the past?\n\nSEIF: I didn't build robots; I used to program them. Remember the Sony AIBOs, where Sony made these dog robots? And we would make them compete. There was an international competition where we made them play soccer, and they had to be completely autonomous. They only communicate via Bluetooth or via wireless protocols. And you only have the camera as your sensor as well as...a chest sensor throws the ball near you, and then yeah, you make them play football against each other, four versus four with a goalkeeper and everything. Just look it up: RoboCup AIBO. Look it up on YouTube. And I...2008 world champion with the German team.\n\nVICTORIA: That sounds incredible. What kind of crowds are you drawing out for a robot soccer match? Is that a lot of people involved with that?\n\nSEIF: You would be surprised how big the RoboCup competition is. It's ridiculous.\n\nVICTORIA: I want to go. I'm ready. I want to, like, I'll look it up and find out when the next one is.\n\nSEIF: No more Sony robots but other robots. Now, there's two-legged robots. So, they make them play as two-legged robots, much slower than four-legged robots, but works.\n\nVICTORIA: Wait. So, the robots you were playing soccer with had four legs they were running around on?\n\nSEIF: Yeah, they were dogs [laughter]. \n\nVICTORIA: That's awesome. \n\nSEIF: We all get the same robot. It's just a competition on software, right? On a software level. And some other competitions within the RoboCup actually use...you build your own robot and stuff like that. But this one was...it's called the Standard League, where we all have a robot, and we have to program it. \n\nJOE: And the standard robot was a dog. \n\nSEIF: Yeah, I think back then...we're talking...it's been a long time. I think it started in 2001 or something. I think the competition started in 2001 or 2002. And I compete from 2006 to 2008. Robots back then were just, you know, simple.\n\nVICTORIA: Robots today are way too complicated [laughs].\n\nSEIF: Even AI is more complicated.\n\nVICTORIA: That's right. Yeah, everything has gotten a lot more complicated [laughs]. I'm so curious how you went from being a world-champion robot dog soccer player [laughs] programmer [laughs] to where you are today with Axiom. Can you tell me a little bit more about your journey?\n\nSEIF: The journey is interesting because it came from open source. I used to do open source on the side a lot–part of the GNOME Project. That's where I met Neil and the rest of my team, Mikkel Kamstrup, the whole crowd, basically. We worked on GNOME. We worked on Ubuntu. Like, most of them were working professionally on it. I was working for another company, but we worked on the same project. \n\nWe ended up at Xamarin, which was bought by Microsoft. And then we ended up doing Axiom. But we've been around each other professionally since 2009, most of us. It's like a little family. But how we ended up exactly in observability, I think it's just trying to fix pain points in my life.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I was reading through the docs on Axiom. And there's an interesting point you make about organizations having to choose between how much data they have and how much they want to spend on it. So, maybe you can tell me a little bit more about that pain point and what you really found in the early stages that you wanted to solve.\n\nSEIF: So, the early stages of what we wanted to solve we were mainly dealing with...so, the early, early stage, we were actually trying to be a Datadog competitor, where we were going to be self-hosted. Eventually, we focused on logs because we found out that's what was a big problem for most people, just event data, not just metric but generally event data, so logs, traces, et cetera. We built out our own logs database completely from scratch. \n\nAnd one of the things we stumbled upon was; basically, you have three things when it comes to logging, which is low cost, low latency, and large scale. That's what everybody wants. But you can't get all three of them; you can only get two of them. And we opted...like, we chose large scale and low cost. And when it comes to latency, we say it should be just fast enough, right? And that's where we focused on, and this is how we started building it. And with that, this is how we managed to stand out by just having way lower cost than anybody else in the industry and dealing with large scale.\n\nVICTORIA: That's really interesting. And how did you approach making the ingestion pipeline for masses amount of data more efficient? \n\nSEIF: Just make it coordination-free as possible, right? And get rid of Kafka because Kafka just, you know, drains your...it's where you throw in money. Like maintaining Kafka...it's like back then Elasticsearch, right? Elasticsearch was the biggest part of your infrastructure that would cost money. Now, it's also Kafka. \n\nSo, we found a way to have our own internal way of queueing things without having to rely on Kafka. As I said, we wrote everything from scratch to make it work. Like, every now and then, I think that we can spin this out of the company and make it a new product. But now, eyes on the prize, right?\n\nJOE: It's interesting to hear that somebody who spent so much time in the open-source community ended up rolling their own solution to so many problems. Do you feel like you had some lessons learned from open source that led you to reject solutions like Kafka, or how did that journey go?\n\nSEIF: I don't think I'm rejecting Kafka. The problem is how Kafka is built, right? Kafka is still...you have to set up all these servers. They have to communicate, et cetera, etcetera. They didn't build it in a way where it's stateless, and that's what we're trying to go to. We're trying to make things as stateless as possible. So, Kafka was never built for the cloud-native era. And you can't really rely on SQS or something like that because it won't deal with this high throughput. \n\nSo, that's why I said, like, we will sacrifice some latency, but at least the cost is low. So, if messages show after half a second or a second, I'm good. It doesn't have to be real-time for me. So, I had to write a couple of these things. But also, it doesn't mean that we reject open source. Like, we actually do like open source. We open-source a couple of libraries. We contribute back to open source, right? We needed a solution back then for that problem, and we couldn't find any. And maybe one day, open source will have, right? \n\nJOE: Yeah. I was going to ask if you considered open-sourcing any of your high latency, high throughput solutions.\n\nSEIF: Not high latency. You make it sound bad.\n\nJOE: [laughs]\n\nSEIF: You make it sound bad. It's, like, fast enough, right? I'm not going to compete on milliseconds because, also, I'm competing with ClickHouse. I don't want to compete with ClickHouse. ClickHouse is low latency and large scale, right? But then the cost is, you know, off the charts a bit sometimes. \n\nI'm going the other route. Like, you know, it's fast enough. Like, how, you know, if it's under two, three seconds, everybody's happy, right? If the results come within two, three seconds, everybody is happy. If you're going to build a real-time trading system on top of it, I'll strongly advise against that. But if you're building, you know, you're looking at dashboards, you're more in the observability field, yeah, we're good.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I'm curious what you found, like, which customer personas that market really resonated with. Like, is there a particular, like, industry type where you're noticing they really want to lower their cost, and they're okay with this just fast enough latency?\n\nSEIF: Honestly, with the current recession, everybody is okay with giving up some of the speed to reduce the money because I think it's not linear reduction. It's more exponential reduction at this point, right? You give up a second, and you're saving 30%. You give up two seconds, all of a sudden, you're saving 80%. \n\nSo, I'd say in the beginning, everybody thought they need everything to be very, very fast. And now they're realizing, you know, with limitations you have around your budget and spending, you're like, okay, I'm okay with the speed. And, again, we're not slow. I'm just saying people realize they don't need everything under a second. They're okay with waiting for two seconds.\n\nVICTORIA: That totally resonates with me. And I'm curious if you can add maybe a non-technical or a real-life example of, like, how this impacts the operations of a company or organization, like, if you can give us, like, a business-y example of how this impacts how people work.\n\nSEIF: I don't know how, like, how do people work on that? Nothing changed, really. They're still doing the, like...really nothing because...and that aspect is you run a query, and, again, as I said, you're not getting the result in a second. You're just waiting two seconds or three seconds, and it's there. So, nothing really changed. I think people can wait three seconds. And we're still like–when I say this, we're still faster than most others. We're just not as fast as people who are trying to compete on a millisecond level. \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that's okay. Maybe I'll take it back even, like, a step further, right? Like, our audience is really sometimes just founders who almost have no formal technical training or background. So, when we talk about observability, sometimes people who work in DevOps and operations all understand it and kind of know why it's important [laughs] and what we're talking about. So, maybe you could, like, go back to --\n\nSEIF: Oh, if you're asking about new types of people who've been using it --\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Like, if you're going to explain to, like, a non-technical founder, like, why your product is important, or, like, how people in their organization might use it, what would you say?\n\nSEIF: Oh, okay, if you put it like that. It's more of if you have data, timestamp data, and you want to run analytics on top of it, so that could be transactions, that could be web vitals, rather than count every time somebody visits, you have a timestamp. So, you can count, like, how many visitors visited the website and what, you know, all these kinds of things. That's where you want to use something like Axiom. That's outside the DevOps space, of course. And in DevOps space, there's so many other things you use Axiom for, but that's outside the DevOps space. \n\nAnd we actually...we implemented as zero-config integration with Vercel that kind of went viral. And we were, for a while, the number one enterprise for self-integration because so many people were using it. So, Vercel users are usually not necessarily writing the most complex backends, but a lot of things are happening on the front-end side of things. And we would be giving them dashboards, automated dashboards about, you know, latencies, and how long a request took, and how long the response took, and the content type, and the status codes, et cetera, et cetera. And there's a huge user base around that.\n\nVICTORIA: I like that. And it's something, for me, you know, as a managing director of our platform engineering team, I want to talk more to founders about. It's great that you put this product and this app out into the world. But how do you know that people are actually using it? How do you know that people, like, maybe, are they all quitting after the first day and not coming back to your app? Or maybe, like, the page isn't loading or, like, it's not working as they expected it to. \n\nAnd, like, if you don't have anything observing what users are doing in your app, then it's going to be hard to show that you're getting any traction and know where you need to go in and make corrections and adjust.\n\nSEIF: We have two ways of doing this. Right now, internally, we use our own tools to see, like, who is sending us data. We have a deployment that's monitoring production deployment. And we're just, you know, seeing how people are using it, how much data they're sending every day, who stopped sending data, who spiked in sending data sets, et cetera. \n\nBut we're using Mixpanel, and Dominic, our Head of Product, implemented a couple of key metrics to that for that specifically. So, we know, like, what's the average time until somebody starts going from building its own queries with the builder to writing APL, or how long it takes them from, you know, running two queries to five queries. And, you know, we just start measuring these things now. And it's been going...we've been growing healthy around that. \n\nSo, we tend to measure user interaction, but also, we tend to measure how much data is being sent. Because let's keep in mind, usually, people go in and check for things if there's a problem. So, if there's no problem, the user won't interact with us much unless there's a notification that kicks off. We also just check, like, how much data is being sent to us the whole time.\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. Like, you can't just rely on, like, well, if it was broken, they would write a [chuckles], like, a question or something. So, how do you get those metrics and that data around their interactions? So, that's really interesting. So, I wonder if we can go back and talk about, you know, we already mentioned a little bit about, like, the early days of Axiom and how you got started. Was there anything that you found in the early discovery process that was surprising and made you pivot strategy?\n\nSEIF: A couple of things. Basically, people don't really care about the tech as much as they care [inaudible 12:51] and the packaging, so that's something that we had to learn. And number two, continuous feedback. Continuous feedback changed the way we worked completely, right? And, you know, after that, we had a Slack channel, then we opened a Discord channel. And, like, this continuous feedback coming in just helps with iterating, helps us with prioritizing, et cetera. And that changed the way we actually developed product.\n\nVICTORIA: You use Slack and Discord?\n\nSEIF: No. No Slack anymore. We had a community Slack. We had a community [inaudible 13:19] Slack. Now, there's no community Slack. We only have a community Discord. And the community Slack is...sorry, internally, we use Slack, but there's a community Discord for the community.\n\nJOE: But how do you keep that staffed? Is it, like, everybody is in the Discord during working hours? Is it somebody's job to watch out for community questions?\n\nSEIF: I think everybody gets involved now just...and you can see it. If you go on our Discord, you will just see it. Just everyone just gets involved. I think just people are passionate about what they're doing. At least most people are involved on Discord, right? Because there's, like, Discord the help sections, and people are just asking questions and other people answering. \n\nAnd now, we reached a point where people in the community start answering the questions for other people in the community. So, that's how we see it's starting to become a healthy community, et cetera. But that is one of my favorite things: when I see somebody from the community answering somebody else, that's a highlight for me. Actually, we hired somebody from that community because they were so active.\n\nJOE: Yeah, I think one of the biggest signs that a product is healthy is when there's a healthy ecosystem building up around it.\n\nSEIF: Yeah, and Discord reminds me of the old days of open sources like IRC, just with memes now. But because all of us come from the old IRC days, being on Discord and chatting around, et cetera, et cetera, just gives us this momentum back, gave us this momentum back, whereas Slack always felt a bit too businessy to me.\n\nJOE: Slack is like IRC with emoji. Discord is IRC with memes.\n\nSEIF: I would say Slack reminds me somehow of MSN Messenger, right? \n\nJOE: I feel like there's a huge slam on MSN Messenger here.\n\nSEIF: [laughs] What do you guys use internally, Slack or? I think you're using Slack, right? Or Teams. Don't tell me you're using Teams.\n\nJOE: No, we're using Slack.\n\nSEIF: Okay, good, because I shit talk. Like, there is this, I’ll sh*t talk here–when I start talking about Teams, so...I remember that one thing Google did once, and that failed miserably.\n\nJOE: Google still has, like, seven active chat products.\n\nSEIF: Like, I think every department or every, like, group of engineers just uses one of them internally. I'm not sure. Never got to that point. But hey, who am I to judge?\n\nVICTORIA: I just feel like I end up using all of them, and then I'm just rotating between different tabs all day long. You maybe talked me into using Discord. I feel like I've been resisting it, but you got me with the memes. \n\nSEIF: Yeah, it's definitely worth it. It's more entertaining. More noise, but more entertaining. You feel it's alive, whereas Slack is...also because there's no, like, history is forever. So, you always go back, and you're like, oh my God, what the hell is this?\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I have, like, all of them. I'll do anything.\n\nSEIF: They should be using Axiom in the background. Just send data to Axiom; we can keep your chat history.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, maybe. I'm so curious because, you know, you mentioned something about how you realized that it didn't matter really how cool the tech was if the product packaging wasn't also appealing to people. Because you seem really excited about what you've built. So, I'm curious, so just tell us a little bit more about how you went about trying to, like, promote this thing you built. Or was, like, the continuous feedback really early on, or how did that all kind of come together? \n\nSEIF: The continuous feedback helped us with performance, but actually getting people to sign up and pay money it started early on. But with Vercel, it kind of skyrocketed, right? And that's mostly because we went with the whole zero-config approach where it's just literally two clicks. And all of a sudden, Vercel is sending your data to Axiom, and that's it. We will create [inaudible 16:33].\n\nAnd we worked very closely with Vercel to do this, to make this happen, which was awesome. Like, yeah, hats off to them. They were fantastic. And just two clicks, three clicks away, and all of a sudden, we created Axiom organization for you, the data set for you. And then we're sending it...and the data from Vercel is being forwarded to it. I think that packaging was so simple that it made people try it out quickly. And then, the experience of actually using Axiom was sticky, so they continued using it. \n\nAnd then the price was so low because we give 500 gigs for free, right? You send us 500 gigs a month of logs for free, and we don't care. And you can start off here with one terabyte for 25 bucks. So, people just start signing up. Now, before that, it was five terabytes a month for $99, and then we changed the plan. But yeah, it was cheap enough, so people just start sending us more and more and more data eventually.\n\nThey weren't thinking...we changed the way people start thinking of “what am I going to send to Axiom” or “what am I going to send to my logs provider or log storage?” To how much more can I send? And I think that's what we wanted to reach. We wanted people to think, how much more can I send?\n\nJOE: You mentioned latency and cost. I'm curious about...the other big challenge we've seen with observability platforms, including logs, is cardinality of labels. Was there anything you had to sacrifice upfront in terms of cardinality to manage either cost or volume?\n\nSEIF: No, not really. Because the way we designed it was that we should be able to deal with high cardinality from scratch, right? I mean, there's open-source ways of doing, like, if you look at how, like, a column store, if you look at a column store and every dimension is its own column, it's just that becomes, like, you can limit on the amount of columns you're creating, but you should never limit on the amount of different values in a column could be. \n\nSo, if you're having something like stat tags, right? Let's say hosting, like, hostname should be a column, but then the different hostnames you have, we never limit that. So, the cardinality on a value is something that is unlimited for us, and we don't really see it in cost. It doesn't really hit us on cost. It reflects a bit on compression if you get into technical details of that because, you know, high cardinality means a lot of different data. So, compression is harder, but it's not repetitive. \n\nBut then if you look at, you know, oh, I want to send a lot of different types of fields, not values with fields, so you have hostname, and latency, and whatnot, et cetera, et cetera, yeah, that's where limitation starts because then they have...it's like you're going to a wide range of...and a wider dimension. But even that, we, yeah, we can deal with thousands at this point. And we realize, like, most people will not need more than three or four. It's like a Postgres table. You don't need more than 3,000 to 4000 columns; else, you know, you're doing a lot.\n\nJOE: I think it's actually pretty compelling in terms of cost, though. Like, that's one of the things we've had to be most careful about in terms of containing cost for metrics and logs is, a lot of providers will...they'll either charge you based on the number of unique metric combinations or the performance suffers greatly. Like, we've used a lot of Prometheus-based solutions. \n\nAnd so, when we're working with developers, even though they don't need more than, you know, a few dozen metric combinations most of the time, it's hard for people to think of what they need upfront. It's much easier after you deploy it to be able to query your data and slice it retroactively based on what you're seeing.\n\nSEIF: That's the detail. When you say we're using Prometheus, a lot of the metrics tools out there are using, just like Prometheus, are using the Gorilla data structure. And the real data structure was never designed to deal with high cardinality labels. So, basically, to put it in a simple way, every combination of tags you send for metrics is its own file on disk. That's, like, the very simple way of explaining this. And then, when you're trying to search through everything, right? And you have a lot of these combinations. I actually have to get all these files from this conversion back together, you know, and then they're chunked, et cetera. So, it's a problem. \n\nGenerally, how metrics are doing it...most metrics products are using it, even VictoriaMetrics, et cetera. What they're doing is they're using either the Prometheus TSDB data structure, which is based on Gorilla. Influx was doing the same thing. They pivoted to using more and more like the ones we use, and Honeycomb uses, right? So, we might not be as fast on metrics side as these highly optimized. But then when it comes to high [inaudible 20:49], once we start dealing with high cardinality, we will be faster than those solutions. And that's on a very technical level.\n\nJOE: That's pretty cool. I realize we're getting pretty technical here. Maybe it's worth defining cardinality for the audience.\n\nSEIF: Defining cardinality to the...I mean, we just did that, right?\n\nJOE: What do you think, Victoria? Do you know what cardinality is now? [laughs]\n\nVICTORIA: All right. Now I'm like, do I know? I was like, I think I know what it means. Cardinality is, like, let's say you have a piece of data like an event or a transaction.\n\nSEIF: It's like the distinct count on a property that gives you the cardinality of a property.\n\nVICTORIA: Right. It's like how many pieces of information you have about that one event, basically, yeah. \n\nJOE: But with some traditional metrics stores, it's easy to make mistakes. For example, you could have unbounded cardinality by including response time as one of the labels -- \n\nSEIF: Tags. \n\nJOE: And then it's just going to --\n\nSEIF: Oh, no, no. Let me give you a better one. I put in timestamp at some point in my life. \n\nJOE: Yeah, I feel like everybody has done that one. \n\n[laughter]\n\nSEIF: I've put a system timestamp at some point in my life. There was the actual timestamp, and there was a system timestamp that I would put because I wanted to know when the...because I couldn't control the timestamp, and the only timestamp I had was a system timestamp. I would always add the actual timestamp of when that event actually happened into a metric, and yeah, that did not scale.\n\nMID-ROLL AD:\n\nAre you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you’re tight on time and investment, which is why we’ve created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product’s next steps.\n\nOver four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success.\n\nFind out how we can help you move the needle at tbot.io/entrepreneurs.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. I wonder if you could maybe share, like, a story about when it's gone wrong, and you've suddenly charged a lot of money [laughs] just to get information about what's happening in the system. Any, like, personal experiences with observability that kind of informed what you did with Axiom?\n\nSEIF: Oof, I have a very bad one, like, a very, very bad one. I used to work for a company. We had to deploy Elasticsearch on Windows Servers, and it was US-East-1. So, just a combination of Elasticsearch back in 2013, 2014 together with Azure and Windows Server was not a good idea. So, you see where this is going, right? \n\nJOE: I see where it's going. \n\nSEIF: Eventually, we had, like, we get all these problems because we used Elasticsearch and Kibana as our, you know, observability platform to measure everything around the product we were building. And funny enough, it cost us more than actually maintaining the infrastructure of the product. But not just that, it also kept me up longer because most of the downtimes I would get were not because of the product going down. It's because my Elasticsearch cluster started going down, and there's reasons for that. Because back then, Microsoft Azure thought that it's okay for any VM to lose connection with the rest of the VMs for 30 seconds per day. And then, all of a sudden, you have Elasticsearch with a split-brain problem. \n\nAnd there was a phase where I started getting alerted so much that back then, my partner threatened to leave me. So I bought a...what I think was a shock bracelet or a shock collar via Bluetooth, and I connected it to phone for any notification. And I bought that off Alibaba, by the way. And I would charge it at night, put it on my wrist, and go to sleep. And then, when alert happens, it will fully discharge the battery on me every time. \n\nJOE: Okay, I have to admit, I did not see where that was going.\n\nSEIF: Yeah, did that for a while; definitely did not save my relationship either. But eventually, that was the point where, you know, we started looking into other observability tools like Datadog, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And that's where the actual journey began, where we moved away from Elasticsearch and Kibana to look for something, okay, that we don't have to maintain ourselves and we can use, et cetera. So, it's not about the costs as much; it was just pain.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, pain is a real pain point, actual physical [chuckles] and emotional pain point [laughter]. What, like, motivates you to keep going with Axiom and to keep, like, the wind in your sails to keep working on it?\n\nSEIF: There's a couple of things. I love working with my team. So, honestly, I just wake up, and I compliment my team. I just love working with them. They're a lot of fun to work with. And they challenge me, and I challenge them back. And I upset them a lot. And they can't upset me, but I upset them. But I love working with them, and I love working with that team. \n\nAnd the other thing is getting, like, having this constant feedback from customers just makes you want to do more and, you know, close sales, et cetera. It's interesting, like, how I'm a very technical person, and I'm more interested in sales because sales means your product works, the product, the technical parts, et cetera. Because if technically it's not working, you can't build a product on top of it. And if you're not selling it, then what's the point? You only sell when the product is good, more or less, unless you're Oracle.\n\nVICTORIA: I had someone ask me about Oracle recently, actually. They're like, \"Are you considering going back to it?\" And I'm maybe a little allergic to it from having a federal consulting background [laughs]. But maybe they'll come back around. I don't know. We'll see. \n\nSEIF: Did you sell your soul back then?\n\nVICTORIA: You know, I feel like I just grew up in a place where that's what everyone did was all.\n\nSEIF: It was Oracle, IBM, or HP back in the day. \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Well, basically, when you're working on applications that were built in, like, the '80s, Oracle was, like, this hot, new database technology [laughs] that they just got five years ago. So, that's just, yeah, interesting.\n\nSEIF: Although, from a database perspective, they did a lot of the innovations. A lot of first innovations could have come from Oracle. From a technical perspective, they're ridiculous. I'm not sure from a product perspective how good they are. But I know their sales team is so big, so huge. They don't care about the product anymore. They can still sell.\n\nVICTORIA: I think, you know, everything in tech is cyclical. So, you know, if they have the right strategy and they're making some interesting changes over there, there's always a chance [laughs]. Certain use cases, I mean, I think that's the interesting point about working in technology is that you know, every company is a tech company. And so, there's just a lot of different types of people, personas, and use cases for different types of products. So, I wonder, you know, you kind of mentioned earlier that, like, everyone is interested in Axiom. But, you know, I don't know, are you narrowing the market? Or, like, how are you trying to kind of focus your messaging and your sales for Axiom?\n\nSEIF: I'm trying to focus on developers. So, we're really trying to focus on developers because the experience around observability is crap. It's stupid expensive. Sorry for being straightforward, right? And that's what we're trying to change. And we're targeting developers mainly. We want developers to like us. And we'll find all these different types of developers who are using it, and that's the interesting thing. \n\nAnd because of them, we start adding more and more features, like, you know, we added tracing, and now that enables, like, billions of events pushed through for, you know, again, for almost no money, again, $25 a month for a terabyte of data. And we're doing this with metrics next. And that's just to address the developers who have been giving us feedback and the market demand. I will sum it up, again, like, the experience is crap, and it's stupid expensive. I think that's the [inaudible 28:07] of observability is just that's how I would sum it up.\n\nVICTORIA: If you could go back in time and talk to yourself when you were still a developer, now that you're CTO, what advice would you give yourself?\n\nJOE: Besides avoiding shock collars.\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs] Yes.\n\nSEIF: Get people's feedback quickly so you know you're on the right track. I think that's very, very, very, very important. Don't just work in the dark, or don't go too long into stealth mode because, eventually, people catch up. Also, ship when you're 80% ready because 100% is too late. I think it's the same thing here. \n\nJOE: Ship often and early. \n\nSEIF: Yeah, even if it's not fully ready, it's still feedback.\n\nVICTORIA: Ship often and early and talk to people [laughs]. Just, do you feel like, as a developer, did you have the skills you needed to be able to get the most out of those feedback and out of those conversations you were having with people around your product?\n\nSEIF: I still don't think I'm good enough. You're just constantly learning, right? I just accepted I'm part of a team, and I have my contributions. But as an individual, I still don't think I know enough. I think there's more I need to learn at this point.\n\nVICTORIA: I wonder, what questions do you have for me or Joe? \n\nSEIF: How did you start your podcast, and why the name? \n\nVICTORIA: Oh, man, I hope I can answer. So, the podcast was started...I think it's, like, we're actually about to be at our 500th Episode. So, I've only been a host for the last year. Maybe Joe even knows more than I do. But what I recall is that one person at thoughtbot thought it would be a great idea to start a podcast, and then they did it. And it seems like the whole company is obsessed with robots. I'm not really sure where that came from. There used to be a tiny robot in the office, is what I remember. And people started using that as, like, the mascot. And then, yeah, that's it, that's the whole thing.\n\nSEIF: Was the robot doing anything useful or just being cute?\n\nJOE: It was just cute, and it's hard to make a robot cute.\n\nSEIF: Was it a real robot, or was it like a --\n\nJOE: No, there was, at one point, a toy robot. The name...I actually forget the origin–origin of the name, but the name Giant Robots comes from our blog. So, we named the podcast the same as the blog: Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots.\n\nSEIF: Yes, it's called transformers.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I like it. It's, I mean, now I feel like --\n\nSEIF: [laughs]\n\nVICTORIA: We got to get more, like, robot dogs involved [laughs] in the podcast.\n\nSEIF: Like, I wanted to add one thing when we talked about, you know, what gets me going. And I want to mention that I have a six-month-old son now. He definitely adds a lot of motivation for me to wake up in the morning and work. But he also makes me wake up regardless if I want to or not.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, you said you had invented an alarm clock that never turns off. Never snoozes [laughs]. \n\nSEIF: Yes, absolutely. \n\nVICTORIA: I have the same thing, but it's my dog. But he does snooze, actually. He'll just, like, get tired and go back to sleep [laughs].\n\nSEIF: Oh, I have a question. Do dogs have a Tamagotchi phase? Because, like, my son, the first three months was like a Tamagotchi. It was easy to read him. \n\nVICTORIA: Oh yeah, uh-huh.\n\nSEIF: Noisy but easy.\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, yes.\n\nSEIF: Now, it's just like, yeah, I don't know, like, the last month he has opinions at six months. I think it's because I raised him in Europe. I should take him back to the Middle East [laughs]. No opinions.\n\nVICTORIA: No, dogs totally have, like, a communication style, you know, I pretty much know what he, I mean, I can read his mind, obviously [laughs].\n\nSEIF: Sure, but that's when they grow a bit. But what when they were very...when the dog was very young?\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, they, I mean, they also learn, like, your stuff, too. So, they, like, learn how to get you to do stuff or, like, I know she'll feed me if I'm sitting here [laughs].\n\nSEIF: And how much is one dog year, seven years? \n\nVICTORIA: Seven years.\n\nSEIF: Seven years?\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, seven years? \n\nSEIF: Yeah. So, basically, in one year, like, three months, he's already...in one month, he's, you know, seven months old. He's like, yeah.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. In a year, they're, like, teenagers. And then, in two years, they're, like, full adults.\n\nSEIF: Yeah. So, the first month is basically going through the first six months of a human being. So yeah, you pass...the first two days or three days are the Tamagotchi phase that I'm talking about.\n\nVICTORIA: [chuckles] I read this book, and it was, like, to understand dogs, it's like, they're just like humans that are trying to, like, maximize the number of positive experiences that they have. So, like, if you think about that framing around all your interactions about, like, maybe you're trying to get your son to do something, you can be like, okay, how do I, like, I don't know, train him that good things happen when he does the things I want him to do? [laughs] That's kind of maybe manipulative but effective. So, you're not learning baby sign language? You're just, like, going off facial expressions?\n\nSEIF: I started. I know how Mama looks like. I know how Dada looks like. I know how more looks like, slowly. And he already does this thing that I know that when he's uncomfortable, he starts opening and closing his hands. And when he's completely uncomfortable and basically that he needs to go sleep, he starts pulling his own hair. \n\nVICTORIA: [laughs] I do the same thing [laughs]. \n\nSEIF: You pull your own hair when you go to sleep? I don't have that. I don't have hair.\n\nVICTORIA: I think I do start, like, touching my head though, yeah [inaudible 33:04].\n\nSEIF: Azure took the last bit of hair I had! Went away with Azure, Elasticsearch, and the shock collar. \n\nVICTORIA: [laughs]\n\nSEIF: I have none of them left. Absolutely nothing. I should sue Elasticsearch for this shit.\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs] Let me know how that goes. Maybe there's more people who could join your lawsuit, you know, with a class action.\n\nSEIF: [laughs] Yeah. Well, one thing I wanted to also just highlight is, right now, one of the things that also makes the company move forward is we realized that in a single domain, we proved ourselves very valuable to specific companies, right? So, that was a big, big thing, milestone for us. And now we're trying to move into a handful of domains and see which one of those work out the best for us. Does that make sense?\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And I'm curious: what are the biggest challenges or hurdles that you associate with that?\n\nSEIF: At this point, you don't want just feedback. You want constructive criticism. Like, you want to work with people who will criticize the applic...and you iterate with them based on this criticism, right? They're just not happy about you and trying to create design partners. So, for us, it was very important to have these small design partners who can work with us to actually prove ourselves as valuable in a single domain. \n\nRight now, we need to find a way to scale this across several domains. And how do you do that without sacrificing? Like, how do you open into other domains without sacrificing the original domain you came from? So, there's a lot of things [inaudible 34:28]. And we are in the middle of this. Honestly, I Forrest Gumped my way through half of this, right? Like, I didn't know what I was doing. I had ideas. I think it's more of luck at this point. And I had luck. No, we did work. We did work a lot. We did sleepless nights and everything. \n\nBut I think, in the last three years, we became more mature and started thinking more about product. And as I said, like, our CEO, Neil, and Dominic, our head of product, are putting everything behind being a product-led organization, not just a tech-led organization.\n\nVICTORIA: That's super interesting. I love to hear that that's the way you're thinking about it.\n\nJOE: I was just curious what other domains you're looking at pushing into if you can say.\n\nSEIF: So, we are going to start moving into ETL a bit more. We're trying to see how we can fit in specific ML scenarios. I can't say more about the other, though.\n\nJOE: Do you think you'll take the same approaches in terms of value proposition, like, low cost, good enough latency?\n\nSEIF: Yes, that's definitely one thing. But there's also...so, this is the values we're bringing to the customer. But also, now, our internal values are different. Now it's more of move with urgency and high velocity, as we said before, right? Think big, work small. The values in terms of values we're going to take to the customers it's the same ones. And maybe we'll add some more, but it's still going to be low-cost and large-scale. And, internally, we're just becoming more, excuse my French, agile. I hate that word so much. Should be good with Scrum.\n\nVICTORIA: It's painful, but everyone knows what you're talking about [laughs], you know, like --\n\nSEIF: See, I have opinions here about Scrum. I think Scrum should be only used in terms of iceScrum [inaudible 36:04], or something like that.\n\nVICTORIA: Oh no [laughter]. Well, it's a Rugby term, right? Like, that's where it should probably stay.\n\nSEIF: I did not know it's a rugby term. \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, so it should stay there, but --\n\nSEIF: Yes [laughs]. \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I think it's interesting. Yeah, I like the being flexible. I like the just, like, continuous feedback and how you all have set up to, like, talk with your customers. Because you mentioned earlier that, like, you might open source some of your projects. And I'm just curious, like, what goes into that decision for you when you're going to do that? Like, what makes you think this project would be good for open source or when you think, actually, we need to, like, keep it? \n\nSEIF: So, we open source libraries, right? We actually do that already. And some other big organizations use our libraries; even our competitors use our libraries, that we do. The whole product itself or at least a big part of the product, like database, I'm not sure we're going to open source that, at least not anytime soon. And if we open source, it's going to be at a point where the value-add it brings is nothing compared to how well our product is, right? So, if we can replace whatever's at the back with...the storage engine we have in the back with something else and the product doesn't get affected, that's when we open source it.\n\nVICTORIA: That's interesting. That makes sense to me. But yeah, thank you for clarifying that. I just wanted to make sure to circle back. Since you have this big history in open source, yeah, I'm curious if you see...\n\nSEIF: Burning me out?\n\nVICTORIA: Burning you out, yeah [laughter]. Oh, that's a good question. Yeah, like, because, you know, we're about to be in October here. Do you have any advice or strategies as a maintainer for not getting burned out during the next couple of weeks besides, like, hide in a cave and without internet access [laughs]?\n\nSEIF: Stay away from Reddit and Hacker News. That's my goal for October now because I'm always afraid of getting too attached to an idea, or too motivated, or excited by an idea that I drift away from what I am actually supposed to be doing.\n\nVICTORIA: Last question is, is there anything else you would like to promote?\n\nSEIF: Yeah, check out our website; I think it's at axiom.co. Check it out. Sign up. And comment on Discord and talk to me. I don't bite, sometimes grumpy, but that's just because of lack of sleep in the morning. But, you know, around midday, I'm good. And if you're ever in Berlin and you want to hang out, I'm more than willing to hang out.\n\nVICTORIA: Whoo, that's awesome. Yeah, Berlin is great. I was there a couple of years ago but no plans to go back anytime soon, but maybe I'll keep that in mind. \n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. \n\nIf you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you could find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.\n\nAnd this podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. \n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.\n\nDid you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.\n\nMore info on our website at tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.Special Guests: Joe Ferris and Seif Lotfy.Sponsored By:thoughtbot: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you’re tight on time and investment, which is why we’ve created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product’s next steps.\r\n\r\nOver four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success.\r\n\r\nFind out how we can help you move the needle at: tbot.io/entrepreneurs","content_html":"Victoria is joined by guest co-host Joe Ferris, CTO at thoughtbot, and Seif Lotfy, the CTO and Co-Founder of Axiom. Seif discusses the journey, challenges, and strategies behind his data analytics and observability platform.
\n\nSeif, who has a background in robotics and was a 2008 Sony AIBO robotic soccer world champion, shares that Axiom pivoted from being a Datadog competitor to focusing on logs and event data. The company even built its own logs database to provide a cost-effective solution for large-scale analytics. Seif is driven by his passion for his team and the invaluable feedback from the community, emphasizing that sales validate the effectiveness of a product. The conversation also delves into Axiom's shift in focus towards developers to address their need for better and more affordable observability tools.
\n\nOn the business front, Seif reveals the company's challenges in scaling across multiple domains without compromising its core offerings. He discusses the importance of internal values like moving with urgency and high velocity to guide the company's future. Furthermore, he touches on the challenges and strategies of open-sourcing projects and advises avoiding platforms like Reddit and Hacker News to maintain focus.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido, and with me today is Seif Lotfy, CTO and Co-Founder of Axiom, the best home for your event data. Seif, thank you for joining me.
\n\nSEIF: Hey, everybody. Thanks for having me. This is awesome. I love the name of the podcast, given that I used to compete in robotics.
\n\nVICTORIA: What? All right, we're going to have to talk about that. And I also want to introduce a guest co-host today. Since we're talking about cloud, and observability, and data, I invited Joe Ferris, thoughtbot CTO and Director of Development of our platform engineering team, Mission Control. Welcome, Joe. How are you?
\n\nJOE: Good, thanks. Good to be back again.
\n\nVICTORIA: Okay. I am excited to talk to you all about observability. But I need to go back to Seif's comment on competing with robots. Can you tell me a little bit more about what robots you've built in the past?
\n\nSEIF: I didn't build robots; I used to program them. Remember the Sony AIBOs, where Sony made these dog robots? And we would make them compete. There was an international competition where we made them play soccer, and they had to be completely autonomous. They only communicate via Bluetooth or via wireless protocols. And you only have the camera as your sensor as well as...a chest sensor throws the ball near you, and then yeah, you make them play football against each other, four versus four with a goalkeeper and everything. Just look it up: RoboCup AIBO. Look it up on YouTube. And I...2008 world champion with the German team.
\n\nVICTORIA: That sounds incredible. What kind of crowds are you drawing out for a robot soccer match? Is that a lot of people involved with that?
\n\nSEIF: You would be surprised how big the RoboCup competition is. It's ridiculous.
\n\nVICTORIA: I want to go. I'm ready. I want to, like, I'll look it up and find out when the next one is.
\n\nSEIF: No more Sony robots but other robots. Now, there's two-legged robots. So, they make them play as two-legged robots, much slower than four-legged robots, but works.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wait. So, the robots you were playing soccer with had four legs they were running around on?
\n\nSEIF: Yeah, they were dogs [laughter].
\n\nVICTORIA: That's awesome.
\n\nSEIF: We all get the same robot. It's just a competition on software, right? On a software level. And some other competitions within the RoboCup actually use...you build your own robot and stuff like that. But this one was...it's called the Standard League, where we all have a robot, and we have to program it.
\n\nJOE: And the standard robot was a dog.
\n\nSEIF: Yeah, I think back then...we're talking...it's been a long time. I think it started in 2001 or something. I think the competition started in 2001 or 2002. And I compete from 2006 to 2008. Robots back then were just, you know, simple.
\n\nVICTORIA: Robots today are way too complicated [laughs].
\n\nSEIF: Even AI is more complicated.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's right. Yeah, everything has gotten a lot more complicated [laughs]. I'm so curious how you went from being a world-champion robot dog soccer player [laughs] programmer [laughs] to where you are today with Axiom. Can you tell me a little bit more about your journey?
\n\nSEIF: The journey is interesting because it came from open source. I used to do open source on the side a lot–part of the GNOME Project. That's where I met Neil and the rest of my team, Mikkel Kamstrup, the whole crowd, basically. We worked on GNOME. We worked on Ubuntu. Like, most of them were working professionally on it. I was working for another company, but we worked on the same project.
\n\nWe ended up at Xamarin, which was bought by Microsoft. And then we ended up doing Axiom. But we've been around each other professionally since 2009, most of us. It's like a little family. But how we ended up exactly in observability, I think it's just trying to fix pain points in my life.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I was reading through the docs on Axiom. And there's an interesting point you make about organizations having to choose between how much data they have and how much they want to spend on it. So, maybe you can tell me a little bit more about that pain point and what you really found in the early stages that you wanted to solve.
\n\nSEIF: So, the early stages of what we wanted to solve we were mainly dealing with...so, the early, early stage, we were actually trying to be a Datadog competitor, where we were going to be self-hosted. Eventually, we focused on logs because we found out that's what was a big problem for most people, just event data, not just metric but generally event data, so logs, traces, et cetera. We built out our own logs database completely from scratch.
\n\nAnd one of the things we stumbled upon was; basically, you have three things when it comes to logging, which is low cost, low latency, and large scale. That's what everybody wants. But you can't get all three of them; you can only get two of them. And we opted...like, we chose large scale and low cost. And when it comes to latency, we say it should be just fast enough, right? And that's where we focused on, and this is how we started building it. And with that, this is how we managed to stand out by just having way lower cost than anybody else in the industry and dealing with large scale.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really interesting. And how did you approach making the ingestion pipeline for masses amount of data more efficient?
\n\nSEIF: Just make it coordination-free as possible, right? And get rid of Kafka because Kafka just, you know, drains your...it's where you throw in money. Like maintaining Kafka...it's like back then Elasticsearch, right? Elasticsearch was the biggest part of your infrastructure that would cost money. Now, it's also Kafka.
\n\nSo, we found a way to have our own internal way of queueing things without having to rely on Kafka. As I said, we wrote everything from scratch to make it work. Like, every now and then, I think that we can spin this out of the company and make it a new product. But now, eyes on the prize, right?
\n\nJOE: It's interesting to hear that somebody who spent so much time in the open-source community ended up rolling their own solution to so many problems. Do you feel like you had some lessons learned from open source that led you to reject solutions like Kafka, or how did that journey go?
\n\nSEIF: I don't think I'm rejecting Kafka. The problem is how Kafka is built, right? Kafka is still...you have to set up all these servers. They have to communicate, et cetera, etcetera. They didn't build it in a way where it's stateless, and that's what we're trying to go to. We're trying to make things as stateless as possible. So, Kafka was never built for the cloud-native era. And you can't really rely on SQS or something like that because it won't deal with this high throughput.
\n\nSo, that's why I said, like, we will sacrifice some latency, but at least the cost is low. So, if messages show after half a second or a second, I'm good. It doesn't have to be real-time for me. So, I had to write a couple of these things. But also, it doesn't mean that we reject open source. Like, we actually do like open source. We open-source a couple of libraries. We contribute back to open source, right? We needed a solution back then for that problem, and we couldn't find any. And maybe one day, open source will have, right?
\n\nJOE: Yeah. I was going to ask if you considered open-sourcing any of your high latency, high throughput solutions.
\n\nSEIF: Not high latency. You make it sound bad.
\n\nJOE: [laughs]
\n\nSEIF: You make it sound bad. It's, like, fast enough, right? I'm not going to compete on milliseconds because, also, I'm competing with ClickHouse. I don't want to compete with ClickHouse. ClickHouse is low latency and large scale, right? But then the cost is, you know, off the charts a bit sometimes.
\n\nI'm going the other route. Like, you know, it's fast enough. Like, how, you know, if it's under two, three seconds, everybody's happy, right? If the results come within two, three seconds, everybody is happy. If you're going to build a real-time trading system on top of it, I'll strongly advise against that. But if you're building, you know, you're looking at dashboards, you're more in the observability field, yeah, we're good.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I'm curious what you found, like, which customer personas that market really resonated with. Like, is there a particular, like, industry type where you're noticing they really want to lower their cost, and they're okay with this just fast enough latency?
\n\nSEIF: Honestly, with the current recession, everybody is okay with giving up some of the speed to reduce the money because I think it's not linear reduction. It's more exponential reduction at this point, right? You give up a second, and you're saving 30%. You give up two seconds, all of a sudden, you're saving 80%.
\n\nSo, I'd say in the beginning, everybody thought they need everything to be very, very fast. And now they're realizing, you know, with limitations you have around your budget and spending, you're like, okay, I'm okay with the speed. And, again, we're not slow. I'm just saying people realize they don't need everything under a second. They're okay with waiting for two seconds.
\n\nVICTORIA: That totally resonates with me. And I'm curious if you can add maybe a non-technical or a real-life example of, like, how this impacts the operations of a company or organization, like, if you can give us, like, a business-y example of how this impacts how people work.
\n\nSEIF: I don't know how, like, how do people work on that? Nothing changed, really. They're still doing the, like...really nothing because...and that aspect is you run a query, and, again, as I said, you're not getting the result in a second. You're just waiting two seconds or three seconds, and it's there. So, nothing really changed. I think people can wait three seconds. And we're still like–when I say this, we're still faster than most others. We're just not as fast as people who are trying to compete on a millisecond level.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that's okay. Maybe I'll take it back even, like, a step further, right? Like, our audience is really sometimes just founders who almost have no formal technical training or background. So, when we talk about observability, sometimes people who work in DevOps and operations all understand it and kind of know why it's important [laughs] and what we're talking about. So, maybe you could, like, go back to --
\n\nSEIF: Oh, if you're asking about new types of people who've been using it --
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Like, if you're going to explain to, like, a non-technical founder, like, why your product is important, or, like, how people in their organization might use it, what would you say?
\n\nSEIF: Oh, okay, if you put it like that. It's more of if you have data, timestamp data, and you want to run analytics on top of it, so that could be transactions, that could be web vitals, rather than count every time somebody visits, you have a timestamp. So, you can count, like, how many visitors visited the website and what, you know, all these kinds of things. That's where you want to use something like Axiom. That's outside the DevOps space, of course. And in DevOps space, there's so many other things you use Axiom for, but that's outside the DevOps space.
\n\nAnd we actually...we implemented as zero-config integration with Vercel that kind of went viral. And we were, for a while, the number one enterprise for self-integration because so many people were using it. So, Vercel users are usually not necessarily writing the most complex backends, but a lot of things are happening on the front-end side of things. And we would be giving them dashboards, automated dashboards about, you know, latencies, and how long a request took, and how long the response took, and the content type, and the status codes, et cetera, et cetera. And there's a huge user base around that.
\n\nVICTORIA: I like that. And it's something, for me, you know, as a managing director of our platform engineering team, I want to talk more to founders about. It's great that you put this product and this app out into the world. But how do you know that people are actually using it? How do you know that people, like, maybe, are they all quitting after the first day and not coming back to your app? Or maybe, like, the page isn't loading or, like, it's not working as they expected it to.
\n\nAnd, like, if you don't have anything observing what users are doing in your app, then it's going to be hard to show that you're getting any traction and know where you need to go in and make corrections and adjust.
\n\nSEIF: We have two ways of doing this. Right now, internally, we use our own tools to see, like, who is sending us data. We have a deployment that's monitoring production deployment. And we're just, you know, seeing how people are using it, how much data they're sending every day, who stopped sending data, who spiked in sending data sets, et cetera.
\n\nBut we're using Mixpanel, and Dominic, our Head of Product, implemented a couple of key metrics to that for that specifically. So, we know, like, what's the average time until somebody starts going from building its own queries with the builder to writing APL, or how long it takes them from, you know, running two queries to five queries. And, you know, we just start measuring these things now. And it's been going...we've been growing healthy around that.
\n\nSo, we tend to measure user interaction, but also, we tend to measure how much data is being sent. Because let's keep in mind, usually, people go in and check for things if there's a problem. So, if there's no problem, the user won't interact with us much unless there's a notification that kicks off. We also just check, like, how much data is being sent to us the whole time.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. Like, you can't just rely on, like, well, if it was broken, they would write a [chuckles], like, a question or something. So, how do you get those metrics and that data around their interactions? So, that's really interesting. So, I wonder if we can go back and talk about, you know, we already mentioned a little bit about, like, the early days of Axiom and how you got started. Was there anything that you found in the early discovery process that was surprising and made you pivot strategy?
\n\nSEIF: A couple of things. Basically, people don't really care about the tech as much as they care [inaudible 12:51] and the packaging, so that's something that we had to learn. And number two, continuous feedback. Continuous feedback changed the way we worked completely, right? And, you know, after that, we had a Slack channel, then we opened a Discord channel. And, like, this continuous feedback coming in just helps with iterating, helps us with prioritizing, et cetera. And that changed the way we actually developed product.
\n\nVICTORIA: You use Slack and Discord?
\n\nSEIF: No. No Slack anymore. We had a community Slack. We had a community [inaudible 13:19] Slack. Now, there's no community Slack. We only have a community Discord. And the community Slack is...sorry, internally, we use Slack, but there's a community Discord for the community.
\n\nJOE: But how do you keep that staffed? Is it, like, everybody is in the Discord during working hours? Is it somebody's job to watch out for community questions?
\n\nSEIF: I think everybody gets involved now just...and you can see it. If you go on our Discord, you will just see it. Just everyone just gets involved. I think just people are passionate about what they're doing. At least most people are involved on Discord, right? Because there's, like, Discord the help sections, and people are just asking questions and other people answering.
\n\nAnd now, we reached a point where people in the community start answering the questions for other people in the community. So, that's how we see it's starting to become a healthy community, et cetera. But that is one of my favorite things: when I see somebody from the community answering somebody else, that's a highlight for me. Actually, we hired somebody from that community because they were so active.
\n\nJOE: Yeah, I think one of the biggest signs that a product is healthy is when there's a healthy ecosystem building up around it.
\n\nSEIF: Yeah, and Discord reminds me of the old days of open sources like IRC, just with memes now. But because all of us come from the old IRC days, being on Discord and chatting around, et cetera, et cetera, just gives us this momentum back, gave us this momentum back, whereas Slack always felt a bit too businessy to me.
\n\nJOE: Slack is like IRC with emoji. Discord is IRC with memes.
\n\nSEIF: I would say Slack reminds me somehow of MSN Messenger, right?
\n\nJOE: I feel like there's a huge slam on MSN Messenger here.
\n\nSEIF: [laughs] What do you guys use internally, Slack or? I think you're using Slack, right? Or Teams. Don't tell me you're using Teams.
\n\nJOE: No, we're using Slack.
\n\nSEIF: Okay, good, because I shit talk. Like, there is this, I’ll sh*t talk here–when I start talking about Teams, so...I remember that one thing Google did once, and that failed miserably.
\n\nJOE: Google still has, like, seven active chat products.
\n\nSEIF: Like, I think every department or every, like, group of engineers just uses one of them internally. I'm not sure. Never got to that point. But hey, who am I to judge?
\n\nVICTORIA: I just feel like I end up using all of them, and then I'm just rotating between different tabs all day long. You maybe talked me into using Discord. I feel like I've been resisting it, but you got me with the memes.
\n\nSEIF: Yeah, it's definitely worth it. It's more entertaining. More noise, but more entertaining. You feel it's alive, whereas Slack is...also because there's no, like, history is forever. So, you always go back, and you're like, oh my God, what the hell is this?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I have, like, all of them. I'll do anything.
\n\nSEIF: They should be using Axiom in the background. Just send data to Axiom; we can keep your chat history.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, maybe. I'm so curious because, you know, you mentioned something about how you realized that it didn't matter really how cool the tech was if the product packaging wasn't also appealing to people. Because you seem really excited about what you've built. So, I'm curious, so just tell us a little bit more about how you went about trying to, like, promote this thing you built. Or was, like, the continuous feedback really early on, or how did that all kind of come together?
\n\nSEIF: The continuous feedback helped us with performance, but actually getting people to sign up and pay money it started early on. But with Vercel, it kind of skyrocketed, right? And that's mostly because we went with the whole zero-config approach where it's just literally two clicks. And all of a sudden, Vercel is sending your data to Axiom, and that's it. We will create [inaudible 16:33].
\n\nAnd we worked very closely with Vercel to do this, to make this happen, which was awesome. Like, yeah, hats off to them. They were fantastic. And just two clicks, three clicks away, and all of a sudden, we created Axiom organization for you, the data set for you. And then we're sending it...and the data from Vercel is being forwarded to it. I think that packaging was so simple that it made people try it out quickly. And then, the experience of actually using Axiom was sticky, so they continued using it.
\n\nAnd then the price was so low because we give 500 gigs for free, right? You send us 500 gigs a month of logs for free, and we don't care. And you can start off here with one terabyte for 25 bucks. So, people just start signing up. Now, before that, it was five terabytes a month for $99, and then we changed the plan. But yeah, it was cheap enough, so people just start sending us more and more and more data eventually.
\n\nThey weren't thinking...we changed the way people start thinking of “what am I going to send to Axiom” or “what am I going to send to my logs provider or log storage?” To how much more can I send? And I think that's what we wanted to reach. We wanted people to think, how much more can I send?
\n\nJOE: You mentioned latency and cost. I'm curious about...the other big challenge we've seen with observability platforms, including logs, is cardinality of labels. Was there anything you had to sacrifice upfront in terms of cardinality to manage either cost or volume?
\n\nSEIF: No, not really. Because the way we designed it was that we should be able to deal with high cardinality from scratch, right? I mean, there's open-source ways of doing, like, if you look at how, like, a column store, if you look at a column store and every dimension is its own column, it's just that becomes, like, you can limit on the amount of columns you're creating, but you should never limit on the amount of different values in a column could be.
\n\nSo, if you're having something like stat tags, right? Let's say hosting, like, hostname should be a column, but then the different hostnames you have, we never limit that. So, the cardinality on a value is something that is unlimited for us, and we don't really see it in cost. It doesn't really hit us on cost. It reflects a bit on compression if you get into technical details of that because, you know, high cardinality means a lot of different data. So, compression is harder, but it's not repetitive.
\n\nBut then if you look at, you know, oh, I want to send a lot of different types of fields, not values with fields, so you have hostname, and latency, and whatnot, et cetera, et cetera, yeah, that's where limitation starts because then they have...it's like you're going to a wide range of...and a wider dimension. But even that, we, yeah, we can deal with thousands at this point. And we realize, like, most people will not need more than three or four. It's like a Postgres table. You don't need more than 3,000 to 4000 columns; else, you know, you're doing a lot.
\n\nJOE: I think it's actually pretty compelling in terms of cost, though. Like, that's one of the things we've had to be most careful about in terms of containing cost for metrics and logs is, a lot of providers will...they'll either charge you based on the number of unique metric combinations or the performance suffers greatly. Like, we've used a lot of Prometheus-based solutions.
\n\nAnd so, when we're working with developers, even though they don't need more than, you know, a few dozen metric combinations most of the time, it's hard for people to think of what they need upfront. It's much easier after you deploy it to be able to query your data and slice it retroactively based on what you're seeing.
\n\nSEIF: That's the detail. When you say we're using Prometheus, a lot of the metrics tools out there are using, just like Prometheus, are using the Gorilla data structure. And the real data structure was never designed to deal with high cardinality labels. So, basically, to put it in a simple way, every combination of tags you send for metrics is its own file on disk. That's, like, the very simple way of explaining this. And then, when you're trying to search through everything, right? And you have a lot of these combinations. I actually have to get all these files from this conversion back together, you know, and then they're chunked, et cetera. So, it's a problem.
\n\nGenerally, how metrics are doing it...most metrics products are using it, even VictoriaMetrics, et cetera. What they're doing is they're using either the Prometheus TSDB data structure, which is based on Gorilla. Influx was doing the same thing. They pivoted to using more and more like the ones we use, and Honeycomb uses, right? So, we might not be as fast on metrics side as these highly optimized. But then when it comes to high [inaudible 20:49], once we start dealing with high cardinality, we will be faster than those solutions. And that's on a very technical level.
\n\nJOE: That's pretty cool. I realize we're getting pretty technical here. Maybe it's worth defining cardinality for the audience.
\n\nSEIF: Defining cardinality to the...I mean, we just did that, right?
\n\nJOE: What do you think, Victoria? Do you know what cardinality is now? [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: All right. Now I'm like, do I know? I was like, I think I know what it means. Cardinality is, like, let's say you have a piece of data like an event or a transaction.
\n\nSEIF: It's like the distinct count on a property that gives you the cardinality of a property.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. It's like how many pieces of information you have about that one event, basically, yeah.
\n\nJOE: But with some traditional metrics stores, it's easy to make mistakes. For example, you could have unbounded cardinality by including response time as one of the labels --
\n\nSEIF: Tags.
\n\nJOE: And then it's just going to --
\n\nSEIF: Oh, no, no. Let me give you a better one. I put in timestamp at some point in my life.
\n\nJOE: Yeah, I feel like everybody has done that one.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nSEIF: I've put a system timestamp at some point in my life. There was the actual timestamp, and there was a system timestamp that I would put because I wanted to know when the...because I couldn't control the timestamp, and the only timestamp I had was a system timestamp. I would always add the actual timestamp of when that event actually happened into a metric, and yeah, that did not scale.
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\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. I wonder if you could maybe share, like, a story about when it's gone wrong, and you've suddenly charged a lot of money [laughs] just to get information about what's happening in the system. Any, like, personal experiences with observability that kind of informed what you did with Axiom?
\n\nSEIF: Oof, I have a very bad one, like, a very, very bad one. I used to work for a company. We had to deploy Elasticsearch on Windows Servers, and it was US-East-1. So, just a combination of Elasticsearch back in 2013, 2014 together with Azure and Windows Server was not a good idea. So, you see where this is going, right?
\n\nJOE: I see where it's going.
\n\nSEIF: Eventually, we had, like, we get all these problems because we used Elasticsearch and Kibana as our, you know, observability platform to measure everything around the product we were building. And funny enough, it cost us more than actually maintaining the infrastructure of the product. But not just that, it also kept me up longer because most of the downtimes I would get were not because of the product going down. It's because my Elasticsearch cluster started going down, and there's reasons for that. Because back then, Microsoft Azure thought that it's okay for any VM to lose connection with the rest of the VMs for 30 seconds per day. And then, all of a sudden, you have Elasticsearch with a split-brain problem.
\n\nAnd there was a phase where I started getting alerted so much that back then, my partner threatened to leave me. So I bought a...what I think was a shock bracelet or a shock collar via Bluetooth, and I connected it to phone for any notification. And I bought that off Alibaba, by the way. And I would charge it at night, put it on my wrist, and go to sleep. And then, when alert happens, it will fully discharge the battery on me every time.
\n\nJOE: Okay, I have to admit, I did not see where that was going.
\n\nSEIF: Yeah, did that for a while; definitely did not save my relationship either. But eventually, that was the point where, you know, we started looking into other observability tools like Datadog, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And that's where the actual journey began, where we moved away from Elasticsearch and Kibana to look for something, okay, that we don't have to maintain ourselves and we can use, et cetera. So, it's not about the costs as much; it was just pain.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, pain is a real pain point, actual physical [chuckles] and emotional pain point [laughter]. What, like, motivates you to keep going with Axiom and to keep, like, the wind in your sails to keep working on it?
\n\nSEIF: There's a couple of things. I love working with my team. So, honestly, I just wake up, and I compliment my team. I just love working with them. They're a lot of fun to work with. And they challenge me, and I challenge them back. And I upset them a lot. And they can't upset me, but I upset them. But I love working with them, and I love working with that team.
\n\nAnd the other thing is getting, like, having this constant feedback from customers just makes you want to do more and, you know, close sales, et cetera. It's interesting, like, how I'm a very technical person, and I'm more interested in sales because sales means your product works, the product, the technical parts, et cetera. Because if technically it's not working, you can't build a product on top of it. And if you're not selling it, then what's the point? You only sell when the product is good, more or less, unless you're Oracle.
\n\nVICTORIA: I had someone ask me about Oracle recently, actually. They're like, "Are you considering going back to it?" And I'm maybe a little allergic to it from having a federal consulting background [laughs]. But maybe they'll come back around. I don't know. We'll see.
\n\nSEIF: Did you sell your soul back then?
\n\nVICTORIA: You know, I feel like I just grew up in a place where that's what everyone did was all.
\n\nSEIF: It was Oracle, IBM, or HP back in the day.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Well, basically, when you're working on applications that were built in, like, the '80s, Oracle was, like, this hot, new database technology [laughs] that they just got five years ago. So, that's just, yeah, interesting.
\n\nSEIF: Although, from a database perspective, they did a lot of the innovations. A lot of first innovations could have come from Oracle. From a technical perspective, they're ridiculous. I'm not sure from a product perspective how good they are. But I know their sales team is so big, so huge. They don't care about the product anymore. They can still sell.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think, you know, everything in tech is cyclical. So, you know, if they have the right strategy and they're making some interesting changes over there, there's always a chance [laughs]. Certain use cases, I mean, I think that's the interesting point about working in technology is that you know, every company is a tech company. And so, there's just a lot of different types of people, personas, and use cases for different types of products. So, I wonder, you know, you kind of mentioned earlier that, like, everyone is interested in Axiom. But, you know, I don't know, are you narrowing the market? Or, like, how are you trying to kind of focus your messaging and your sales for Axiom?
\n\nSEIF: I'm trying to focus on developers. So, we're really trying to focus on developers because the experience around observability is crap. It's stupid expensive. Sorry for being straightforward, right? And that's what we're trying to change. And we're targeting developers mainly. We want developers to like us. And we'll find all these different types of developers who are using it, and that's the interesting thing.
\n\nAnd because of them, we start adding more and more features, like, you know, we added tracing, and now that enables, like, billions of events pushed through for, you know, again, for almost no money, again, $25 a month for a terabyte of data. And we're doing this with metrics next. And that's just to address the developers who have been giving us feedback and the market demand. I will sum it up, again, like, the experience is crap, and it's stupid expensive. I think that's the [inaudible 28:07] of observability is just that's how I would sum it up.
\n\nVICTORIA: If you could go back in time and talk to yourself when you were still a developer, now that you're CTO, what advice would you give yourself?
\n\nJOE: Besides avoiding shock collars.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs] Yes.
\n\nSEIF: Get people's feedback quickly so you know you're on the right track. I think that's very, very, very, very important. Don't just work in the dark, or don't go too long into stealth mode because, eventually, people catch up. Also, ship when you're 80% ready because 100% is too late. I think it's the same thing here.
\n\nJOE: Ship often and early.
\n\nSEIF: Yeah, even if it's not fully ready, it's still feedback.
\n\nVICTORIA: Ship often and early and talk to people [laughs]. Just, do you feel like, as a developer, did you have the skills you needed to be able to get the most out of those feedback and out of those conversations you were having with people around your product?
\n\nSEIF: I still don't think I'm good enough. You're just constantly learning, right? I just accepted I'm part of a team, and I have my contributions. But as an individual, I still don't think I know enough. I think there's more I need to learn at this point.
\n\nVICTORIA: I wonder, what questions do you have for me or Joe?
\n\nSEIF: How did you start your podcast, and why the name?
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, man, I hope I can answer. So, the podcast was started...I think it's, like, we're actually about to be at our 500th Episode. So, I've only been a host for the last year. Maybe Joe even knows more than I do. But what I recall is that one person at thoughtbot thought it would be a great idea to start a podcast, and then they did it. And it seems like the whole company is obsessed with robots. I'm not really sure where that came from. There used to be a tiny robot in the office, is what I remember. And people started using that as, like, the mascot. And then, yeah, that's it, that's the whole thing.
\n\nSEIF: Was the robot doing anything useful or just being cute?
\n\nJOE: It was just cute, and it's hard to make a robot cute.
\n\nSEIF: Was it a real robot, or was it like a --
\n\nJOE: No, there was, at one point, a toy robot. The name...I actually forget the origin–origin of the name, but the name Giant Robots comes from our blog. So, we named the podcast the same as the blog: Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots.
\n\nSEIF: Yes, it's called transformers.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I like it. It's, I mean, now I feel like --
\n\nSEIF: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: We got to get more, like, robot dogs involved [laughs] in the podcast.
\n\nSEIF: Like, I wanted to add one thing when we talked about, you know, what gets me going. And I want to mention that I have a six-month-old son now. He definitely adds a lot of motivation for me to wake up in the morning and work. But he also makes me wake up regardless if I want to or not.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, you said you had invented an alarm clock that never turns off. Never snoozes [laughs].
\n\nSEIF: Yes, absolutely.
\n\nVICTORIA: I have the same thing, but it's my dog. But he does snooze, actually. He'll just, like, get tired and go back to sleep [laughs].
\n\nSEIF: Oh, I have a question. Do dogs have a Tamagotchi phase? Because, like, my son, the first three months was like a Tamagotchi. It was easy to read him.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh yeah, uh-huh.
\n\nSEIF: Noisy but easy.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, yes.
\n\nSEIF: Now, it's just like, yeah, I don't know, like, the last month he has opinions at six months. I think it's because I raised him in Europe. I should take him back to the Middle East [laughs]. No opinions.
\n\nVICTORIA: No, dogs totally have, like, a communication style, you know, I pretty much know what he, I mean, I can read his mind, obviously [laughs].
\n\nSEIF: Sure, but that's when they grow a bit. But what when they were very...when the dog was very young?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, they, I mean, they also learn, like, your stuff, too. So, they, like, learn how to get you to do stuff or, like, I know she'll feed me if I'm sitting here [laughs].
\n\nSEIF: And how much is one dog year, seven years?
\n\nVICTORIA: Seven years.
\n\nSEIF: Seven years?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, seven years?
\n\nSEIF: Yeah. So, basically, in one year, like, three months, he's already...in one month, he's, you know, seven months old. He's like, yeah.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. In a year, they're, like, teenagers. And then, in two years, they're, like, full adults.
\n\nSEIF: Yeah. So, the first month is basically going through the first six months of a human being. So yeah, you pass...the first two days or three days are the Tamagotchi phase that I'm talking about.
\n\nVICTORIA: [chuckles] I read this book, and it was, like, to understand dogs, it's like, they're just like humans that are trying to, like, maximize the number of positive experiences that they have. So, like, if you think about that framing around all your interactions about, like, maybe you're trying to get your son to do something, you can be like, okay, how do I, like, I don't know, train him that good things happen when he does the things I want him to do? [laughs] That's kind of maybe manipulative but effective. So, you're not learning baby sign language? You're just, like, going off facial expressions?
\n\nSEIF: I started. I know how Mama looks like. I know how Dada looks like. I know how more looks like, slowly. And he already does this thing that I know that when he's uncomfortable, he starts opening and closing his hands. And when he's completely uncomfortable and basically that he needs to go sleep, he starts pulling his own hair.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs] I do the same thing [laughs].
\n\nSEIF: You pull your own hair when you go to sleep? I don't have that. I don't have hair.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think I do start, like, touching my head though, yeah [inaudible 33:04].
\n\nSEIF: Azure took the last bit of hair I had! Went away with Azure, Elasticsearch, and the shock collar.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs]
\n\nSEIF: I have none of them left. Absolutely nothing. I should sue Elasticsearch for this shit.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs] Let me know how that goes. Maybe there's more people who could join your lawsuit, you know, with a class action.
\n\nSEIF: [laughs] Yeah. Well, one thing I wanted to also just highlight is, right now, one of the things that also makes the company move forward is we realized that in a single domain, we proved ourselves very valuable to specific companies, right? So, that was a big, big thing, milestone for us. And now we're trying to move into a handful of domains and see which one of those work out the best for us. Does that make sense?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And I'm curious: what are the biggest challenges or hurdles that you associate with that?
\n\nSEIF: At this point, you don't want just feedback. You want constructive criticism. Like, you want to work with people who will criticize the applic...and you iterate with them based on this criticism, right? They're just not happy about you and trying to create design partners. So, for us, it was very important to have these small design partners who can work with us to actually prove ourselves as valuable in a single domain.
\n\nRight now, we need to find a way to scale this across several domains. And how do you do that without sacrificing? Like, how do you open into other domains without sacrificing the original domain you came from? So, there's a lot of things [inaudible 34:28]. And we are in the middle of this. Honestly, I Forrest Gumped my way through half of this, right? Like, I didn't know what I was doing. I had ideas. I think it's more of luck at this point. And I had luck. No, we did work. We did work a lot. We did sleepless nights and everything.
\n\nBut I think, in the last three years, we became more mature and started thinking more about product. And as I said, like, our CEO, Neil, and Dominic, our head of product, are putting everything behind being a product-led organization, not just a tech-led organization.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's super interesting. I love to hear that that's the way you're thinking about it.
\n\nJOE: I was just curious what other domains you're looking at pushing into if you can say.
\n\nSEIF: So, we are going to start moving into ETL a bit more. We're trying to see how we can fit in specific ML scenarios. I can't say more about the other, though.
\n\nJOE: Do you think you'll take the same approaches in terms of value proposition, like, low cost, good enough latency?
\n\nSEIF: Yes, that's definitely one thing. But there's also...so, this is the values we're bringing to the customer. But also, now, our internal values are different. Now it's more of move with urgency and high velocity, as we said before, right? Think big, work small. The values in terms of values we're going to take to the customers it's the same ones. And maybe we'll add some more, but it's still going to be low-cost and large-scale. And, internally, we're just becoming more, excuse my French, agile. I hate that word so much. Should be good with Scrum.
\n\nVICTORIA: It's painful, but everyone knows what you're talking about [laughs], you know, like --
\n\nSEIF: See, I have opinions here about Scrum. I think Scrum should be only used in terms of iceScrum [inaudible 36:04], or something like that.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh no [laughter]. Well, it's a Rugby term, right? Like, that's where it should probably stay.
\n\nSEIF: I did not know it's a rugby term.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, so it should stay there, but --
\n\nSEIF: Yes [laughs].
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I think it's interesting. Yeah, I like the being flexible. I like the just, like, continuous feedback and how you all have set up to, like, talk with your customers. Because you mentioned earlier that, like, you might open source some of your projects. And I'm just curious, like, what goes into that decision for you when you're going to do that? Like, what makes you think this project would be good for open source or when you think, actually, we need to, like, keep it?
\n\nSEIF: So, we open source libraries, right? We actually do that already. And some other big organizations use our libraries; even our competitors use our libraries, that we do. The whole product itself or at least a big part of the product, like database, I'm not sure we're going to open source that, at least not anytime soon. And if we open source, it's going to be at a point where the value-add it brings is nothing compared to how well our product is, right? So, if we can replace whatever's at the back with...the storage engine we have in the back with something else and the product doesn't get affected, that's when we open source it.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's interesting. That makes sense to me. But yeah, thank you for clarifying that. I just wanted to make sure to circle back. Since you have this big history in open source, yeah, I'm curious if you see...
\n\nSEIF: Burning me out?
\n\nVICTORIA: Burning you out, yeah [laughter]. Oh, that's a good question. Yeah, like, because, you know, we're about to be in October here. Do you have any advice or strategies as a maintainer for not getting burned out during the next couple of weeks besides, like, hide in a cave and without internet access [laughs]?
\n\nSEIF: Stay away from Reddit and Hacker News. That's my goal for October now because I'm always afraid of getting too attached to an idea, or too motivated, or excited by an idea that I drift away from what I am actually supposed to be doing.
\n\nVICTORIA: Last question is, is there anything else you would like to promote?
\n\nSEIF: Yeah, check out our website; I think it's at axiom.co. Check it out. Sign up. And comment on Discord and talk to me. I don't bite, sometimes grumpy, but that's just because of lack of sleep in the morning. But, you know, around midday, I'm good. And if you're ever in Berlin and you want to hang out, I'm more than willing to hang out.
\n\nVICTORIA: Whoo, that's awesome. Yeah, Berlin is great. I was there a couple of years ago but no plans to go back anytime soon, but maybe I'll keep that in mind.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm.
\n\nIf you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you could find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nAnd this podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.
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Special Guests: Joe Ferris and Seif Lotfy.
Sponsored By:
Hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido talk with Lonni Kieffer, Co-Founder and Chief Customer Officer at SmartCert. SmartCert's mission is to digitize and streamline the certificate transfer process in supply chains, mainly focusing on the aerospace industry. Lonni shares insights into the challenges of managing change within traditional industries, the importance of building a solid foundation of leadership and core values, and SmartCert's strategies for customer success and self-service.
\n\nLonni also shares the history of the company's growth and its focus on vendor accountability and internal processes to increase supply chain efficiency. SmartCert's platform offers features like document verification and digital signatures to facilitate accessible communication among teams. She discusses the role of their partner company, TechFabric, in building their MVP and how they've grown their internal team. She also highlights 2024 as a pivotal year for SmartCert, aiming for a global impact within the next five years.
\n\nRegarding advice for aspiring entrepreneurs, Lonni emphasizes the importance of grit, flexibility, and a strong belief in one's mission. She also talks about the value of relationships in business growth and the critical role of sleep for effective functioning and decision-making.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Lonni Kieffer, Co-Founder and Chief Customer Officer at SmartCert, a universal cloud-based platform that simplifies every aspect of cert transfer. Lonni, thank you for joining me.
\n\nLONNI: Thanks so much for having me. I love what you guys do. And I'm excited to contribute to the conversation.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. Well, we like to warm up a little bit first before we dive into business topics. Anything exciting going on in your world, Will or Lonni?
\n\nLONNI: I'll let Will start.
\n\nWILL: It's funny because, with three small kids, I think we're finally starting to find our rhythm and our routine, so that's kind of exciting. I know it sounds boring, but when you have three small kids, routine, I feel like, is everything. We're starting to find that because a couple of weeks ago, my son had surgery. So, it threw all of our routines off and everything, and trying to help him get better and heal and everything. But now he's doing good. He's back running around, having fun. So yeah, getting back to that normal life it's exciting, and we're looking forward to it.
\n\nLONNI: That makes so much sense. And I'm glad you mentioned kids because [laughs] I was also going to talk about my three kids and the fact that I am headed down to a family weekend tomorrow to join two-thirds of my daughters for a fun activity. It usually involves some fun meals, grocery shopping to fill [laughs] small college dorm refrigerators. But the challenge that I have then...Will, you have the young ones, and I have the older ones that are definitely going to keep me on my toes. I don't know that I can keep up with college life so much. So, usually, this is really fun but also really exhausting [laughs].
\n\nWILL: I promise you, they're looking forward to it, so don't underestimate what you're doing [laughs].
\n\nLONNI: [chuckles] Yes, for sure.
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm going to feel bad with my update [laughs]. It's like, oh, I'm surfing. I think I was in a surf film yesterday on accident, which was pretty funny. And then I'm going to surf this afternoon and climb. Which you're talking about being on a routine and I just...I can't seem to get my routine of when I'm surfing or when I'm climbing figured out to the point where I just keep, like, exhausting myself trying to do both [laughs]. But that's what's going on in my world. But I am not quite on the kids and baby train yet. But it does sound fun. It sounds...it encompasses a lot. And then you get to just experience a different time of their life compared to what you're going through.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, don't feel bad talking about something else, and fun. Like, today, I signed up for a kickball league in my area. So, I'm looking forward to it. So, I have those activities also. That's a must, I feel.
\n\nLONNI: That's so true, any kind of outdoor time. Even just reading about all the statistics now about direct sunlight, I think it's so incredibly important to weave that into the day. So, Victoria, I give you mad props for having a full agenda of those [laughs] activities.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's good. I'm glad to hear you're having some fun, too, Will and Lonni, getting out there, getting outside in the sunshine while it's still here. Yeah, I appreciate that. So, I'm curious...you know, that's what humans do best, right? Like humans, we're supposed to be outside. We're supposed to be, like, enjoying the sunshine. We're not supposed to be managing paperwork every day [laughs]. So, could you tell me a little bit more about SmartCert and the mission behind the company?
\n\nLONNI: For sure. The paperwork side is truly sad. I was having a discussion with a customer yesterday, and they still receive 90% of the product certs as paper from their vendors. And if you imagine not only the time that it takes to use paper these days [laughs] but the cost associated with that, I think there's some painful statistics around the fact that companies spend on average almost $500 a day on paper and toner.
\n\nAnd, you know, our goal started three years ago when the founder, Lyndon Lattie, who had spent 20 years in manufacturing and distribution in aerospace, finally decided to quit his perfectly good job and really work on alleviating a lot of the bottlenecks and hurdles that's really prevalent in supply chains. Every little nut and bolt that goes into an aircraft requires a lot of documentation that provides traceability to acknowledge that these parts meet the standards that the industry holds that we all have confidence in. So, when there isn't a paper trail or documents go missing, things get very expensive and chaotic.
\n\nAnd what we're trying to do is really remove paper [laughs], the physical part of it, from the equation and use the cloud to not only receive documents from suppliers but store them and send them on to customers. So, we're not only speeding things up, but we're also checking the box on sustainability and helping a fairly antiquated industry move forward with innovation and technology.
\n\nWILL: I love that idea because I'm the type of person that I don't use journals or things like that or paper to-do lists because I lose them all. And I like to think I'm a fairly responsible person, and I still lose them all. I love having it on my phone because I know exactly where it's at. 9.9 times out of 10, I have my phone with me. So, when I think of an idea, I have it; I can do something on it. In your experience, I don't know if you have this number or if you can estimate how often does paper certifications go missing, do you think?
\n\nLONNI: We're talking to some big, big aerospace companies these days, and they have estimated on a daily basis that 80 to 100 shipments have paperwork problems. So, when you think about the sheer volume on a daily basis and the time that it requires to really enable teams to track down paperwork, sometimes you go to your vendor and ask for the documentation, and they have to go back in time because they don't have it. Those delays can halt manufacturing and certainly make a big impact on profitability and just the ability to do business.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And from my background working in the federal government space for a while, I have a sense of just how many rules and regulations a particular product might have applied to it. And thinking about, like, the aerospace where, like, down to the individual bolts and nuts have to have all the specifications and the documentation of, like, the size, and where it came from, and the materials. And if you lose that, then you can't...it's, like, you can't work, or you have to go back to a manufacturer. So, how does SmartCert start to solve that issue?
\n\nLONNI: One of the big things that we're focused on this year is making it easier to receive documents from suppliers. It's the one place that a lot of companies don't have control over. You could have a strong internal process. You could have a strong process for sending these documents to your customers, but you're still at the mercy of what your suppliers choose to do.
\n\nOur big focus this year is starting with vendor accountability and starting to be able to compile data around vendor performance with documents but also start to create a more standard receiving process. So, next month, we are launching a new feature where you could take an email or a digital document, even if you do have to scan it in from a supplier and add that all to your shared dashboard.
\n\nAnd the idea here is to create a strong internal process instead of being at the mercy of your vendors but also make things work faster once documents are received. Usually, that effort is pretty siloed, where there's one receiving team, the processing and review team. The quality team is waiting for the documents. When you start to give everyone access to documents as they're received, you certainly can see cutting down on the steps and fostering stronger communication among internal teams.
\n\nSo, because you now have a good repository and time and date-stamped information, you can start to see the vendors that are costing you money, have the conversations ahead of contracts. There's a big focus on vendor scorecards and continuous improvement in the industry. So, our goal is to be able to provide that centralized repository where the data comes to life instead of multiple people receiving certs and processing certs. That's one big focus on the receiving side.
\n\nAnd then, from an internal perspective, we've built the tools in SmartCert that enable the teams, once the documents are received, to quickly search in the document, make sure that the information is included and accurate. If it is, they can digitally sign and approve it, which is a common next step. If there is information missing, they can reject those certs and kind of maintain the communication within the same platform instead of going into an email and waiting on when to provide updated documents. We're focused on, again, keeping the conversation within one platform.
\n\nAnd then, on the customer side, it's the same thing: the traceability, the visibility of sending documents. So many companies are at the mercy of customers losing paperwork or asking them to resend it. And those are the things that we've eliminated by providing dashboard-to-dashboard delivery and that centralized access. So, even if the buyer you work with is on vacation, your certs aren't sitting in an email inbox for the next five days, not being accessible to the rest of the team. So, those kinds of, I think, focuses on efficiency all the way through the process are where we really feel will make a big impact for every company, large and small.
\n\nWILL: So, I know in the past you started multiple companies, and then about four years ago, you started SmartCert. So, how was the beginning getting traction for SmartCert? And were there any benefits to being a founder in the past that helped you with SmartCert?
\n\nLONNI: I love that question. My efforts at entrepreneurship certainly help. You know, you recognize that the ball's in your court in every facet of the business, the hats that you have to wear across everything you do and want to accomplish. It helped provide a good foundation. SmartCert certainly is more daunting and bigger than my past experiences. But having a good understanding of the requirements around flexibility, a willingness to figure things out on the fly, and a real confidence in what we're doing and believing in is so important.
\n\nYou know, we are working to convince hundreds of thousands of companies to finally move away from super manual processes. And I think you have to have a lot of confidence and belief in not only what you're doing but the impact that you can make in order for you to keep going. And recognize if you are a new product in a new category, the path to building growth is usually pretty difficult.
\n\nWILL: If there is someone who is thinking about starting a company, what advice would you give them? Because I know it's not easy to start a company. It's hard, let's just be honest, it's very hard. If you can give someone advice on, "Hey, take that next step, start it," what advice would you give them?
\n\nLONNI: Well, I think you have to have the grit to get through the bad days. It is an insane roller coaster. But, for me, I think there are so many books and advice, and formulas out there for starting a business. You know, we've read every single book out there. And I think intuition is such a big piece of the potential and success for a business. While formulas and successful companies and what they share and how they did it is really helpful, I think at the end of the day, there may be moments that give you pause because it doesn't align with your intuition. And I think you really have to pay attention to those.
\n\nSo, we spent all of 2022 really working on the SaaS formula. We aligned our website and our conversations to fit those kinds of meetings and conversations. And it turns out because of the people we were talking to and the challenge with change management in this level of transition, the SaaS formula was not successful for us. We made a decision at the end of 2022 to move towards product-led growth, having about 1,000 companies. I hope that'll be next week—our big magic, fun, new milestone.
\n\nWe're really looking to empower the companies who are already participating on the network to drive growth. Many of them are receiving certs from our paying customers and just starting to get familiar with a new way of doing business. But things last year didn't feel right. It was incredibly frustrating to go through those motions and not have the success and metrics that were expected. The piece about intuition and being bold enough and confident enough in why you're doing what you're doing to be able to pivot is crucial.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, you've talked to...or have over 1,000 customers. I wonder what was anything really surprising to you that you discovered in that process.
\n\nLONNI: I think for us...and it kind of lends itself to the conversations we were having last year. To us and to our early adopters, SmartCert was a no-brainer. People that were spending eight hours a day were now spending an hour a day on the same work but just doing it much faster, reducing a lot of human error and automating so much of it. So, when we did have the conversations and make, you know, the introductions to the industry and work to build awareness, it was very obvious that change management is a paralyzing [laughs] aspect.
\n\nAnd when technology is rearing its ugly head in the requirements for your business, the future of your business, I think for manufacturing and distribution, the timeline for a lot of that movement towards digital documents and working in the cloud was accelerated with COVID, with inflation. And all of a sudden, now there's companies who are leaping ahead and some that are falling behind. And it's now a requirement to prioritize more efficient processes simply because there's less people to do the work. And the companies who are taking advantage of innovation are really maximizing the opportunities to build their business, get more customers, and have more success.
\n\nWILL: I was looking at your team, and it looks like you brought on the head of technology, I think, in 2022. And so, I think it was you and your co-founder in the very early days. How was it as a founder to build a technical app and going through that process? How was that process for you?
\n\nLONNI: We were so lucky to partner with a local company in building out the MVP of SmartCert. They had an amazing team. They helped us bring to life a lot of Lyndon's ideas and also had a good background in supply chain. So, I always give props to TechFabric in Gilbert, Arizona, for giving us the opportunity to prove out the model. And that was then enabling us to get the funding and higher Mark who, I will say, every day I don't know how we became so lucky.
\n\nI think startup life is challenging in and of itself. But he really embraced the mission and the opportunity to rebuild SmartCert from the ground up for the scalability it requires but to also embrace the security aspects that are coming to the industry, those compliance requirements, and working alongside us. He's one of the few, I think, heads of technology that are involved in a lot of conversations with customers. And we are absolutely so lucky to be able to add him to our team and continue to evolve the platform in all the ways it needs to to accommodate what we're trying to achieve.
\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you for sharing that. I wonder, what does success really look like for you now, or six months from now, maybe even five years from now?
\n\nLONNI: It'll be three years that we have launched SmartCert in March. And when we think about, you know, what's the first thing to prove when you're a new product in a new market, and it's to prove that people are willing to pay to alleviate the pain. And I think we've done a good job doing that. It's building virality now, you know. As the industry is now expanding its use of SmartCert, more companies are participating. So, we've built a good foundation, which has allowed us to start working with some of the global aerospace companies, distributors, and contract manufacturers, and pilots. We're defining those opportunities now.
\n\nAnd I think 2024 will be a really big year for us to expand the features and the usage and adoption not only with additional supply chains but much more fast-paced growth with participating companies so that in five years, we could really look back and say, "We have really supported supply chains all over the world in working smarter, approaching sustainability with the right goals and processes to cut down on paper, and also be able to combat the challenges with labor shortages, apply technology in ways that are going to certainly make sense for them and for the future."
\n\nVICTORIA: I like that you tie in business goals with, like, big, dreamy goals, like, really reducing our impact on the planet and things like that. Because I think that's...you need to have something to come back to at the end of the day when you're working really hard in a startup like this.
\n\nLONNI: We had a really fun exercise, an internal exercise. So, our lead investor, TitletownTech, obviously has entrepreneurs in residence that we had the advantage of working with. We went through an exercise of really trying to articulate what is, like, the big, hairy goal? What is our mission? And our tagline is now taking the paper and the work out of paperwork so humans can do what they do best.
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\n\nWILL: You were talking about the exercise to figure out, like, where your company is going. I want to ask question, like, around your leadership and core values. Like, how important is it for you to set that foundation now for the next couple of years? Because it sounds like that's what you're doing. You're setting that foundation, and I heard you say it a couple of times, foundation. So, how important is it to set that foundation for the growth that you're expecting over the next couple of years?
\n\nLONNI: When you do have a product-led growth initiative, it means you need to provide as much self-service onboarding, and training tools, and resources as you can to make it easy for companies to move from their free account to a paid account and take advantage of all of the features and the functionality.
\n\nSo, our goals right now are to eliminate hurdles that companies may feel in making the transition. Because we've had so many conversations over the past, I guess, almost three years, we're pretty articulate on being able to help with process changes. What are you doing now? Here's how SmartCert fits in. Are your goals on the supplier side or your internal organization? Is it with customers? And just help walk them down the path of making a transition so it doesn't feel like it's going to require months or years or tons of man-hours that just aren't available as people just try and get through the day.
\n\nSo, from a foundational perspective, customer success is really now sales, marketing support. And those are the tools that I think will help companies have a clear path. We've learned that they really want to make very clear decisions. If I do this, what are the steps? So, we're providing clarity and a lot of good guidance that doesn't require a lot of man-hours on our side to be able to help turn free accounts into paid accounts and continue their expanded use of the platform.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's very cool. Do you have any questions for me or Will?
\n\nLONNI: So, you guys have a lot of conversations. I would love to hear what's really stood out in the last month or so. What's kind of resonated with you? Or what did you hear and apply in your life?
\n\nVICTORIA: I have a couple of answers. I mean, I've had a lot of really amazing guests on the show. It's hard to pick out any few that were really important or had some meaningful takeaways. I really liked Charity Majors when I asked her how the company is doing, and she's like, "Well, we haven't failed yet." [laughs] And just an interesting mentality of very humble and very just open to change and open to seeing, like, what's going to happen next.
\n\nAnd also, I think that Irina Nazarova talked about managing products versus managing open-source projects, and how that is different, and how it might influence your business differently, especially as a consulting company. So, I thought that was really interesting.
\n\nI always love having guests on the show and hearing about why they started what they're doing. And it's just really inspiring to hear people take a chance on an idea that they have, that they feel passionate about, and really put everything behind it. And, you know, most of the time, we're talking to people who have succeeded [chuckles]. A few guests we've had are just getting started in their journey, and it is still kind of unclear. And I really enjoy those conversations as well, where they're just still not really sure if it's going to work. So, that's been a little bit about my experience as a host on the show.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I think I was going to go in a similar direction because I love talking to founders because it's just a different...almost like what you said, like, it's okay; go out there. Take that next step. It may hurt. It may be hard. It's not an easy path but go out there. You can do it. And it's not just for starting a company; for me, it's almost everyday life, like the hard things that come my way in life. Like, it's okay; I can do it.
\n\nSo, I think it's very encouraging to hear founders and their mindset when they started companies and after, like, multiple years of where they're at. And, like, yeah, it was hard. It was not easy, but hey, I made it. Like, I'm on the other side of it. And we're doing great, or we're still in there just hanging out. So, I think, for me, it's being resilient. I think that's the big thing.
\n\nLONNI: I think you nailed it because real talk is survival. And if you aren't honest with yourself, it's not likely you're going to be able to survive. So, I think when you take stock of what you're trying to achieve, the road is super hard, or, like, everyone says, "Everyone would be doing it." But there's a reason, and there's intention there.
\n\nAnd there are so many entrepreneurs who have failed over time only to have more intelligence, experience to get it right at some point. So, I don't know that anything is linear these days. We get smarter and certainly savvier around topics that interest us. And if it drives you towards entrepreneurship, I salute you. It makes having three daughters feel like a spa treatment.
\n\nBut I also know that I get excited about the other side of this. But our board reminds me that there's so much of this that feeds my soul. And it's hard to give that up when you do sell the company or move on because you're used to just being involved in all the things and being able to take advantage of the highs and come together during the lows. And that roller coaster is actually what everyone tells me I'm going to miss the most. I don't believe them yet. But [laughs] I think that they're probably right.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think maybe you'll have a nostalgia for it. But you'll enjoy your peacefulness as well.
\n\nLONNI: Yeah [laughs].
\n\nVICTORIA: Hopefully. [laughs] You have to hope. Yeah, I wonder, you know, speaking about, like, having investors and going around trying to raise money for a product, did you receive any advice or suggestions that, looking back on, you were like, "Actually, that was completely not helpful; I'm glad I didn't take it"?
\n\nLONNI: There were many companies who declined to participate in conversations because we were not building SmartCert on blockchain. And some of them have come back around and asked, "Are your plans to include it?" And we've always felt not only does that require a huge leap...We're taking an industry from paper to digital, so if you want to layer blockchain on that, you're probably going to go nowhere really fast. Because I don't think there's anyone on this planet who can explain it well or really articulate the benefits when, in fact, you're sending paper in boxes. And, sure, there's the security element to that, but it's not really aligned with what blockchain is meant to do.
\n\nSo, we kind of have a laugh now about those that pushed so hard for we will only fund if this is blockchain-enabled. And we're so glad we didn't do that [laughs].
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I mean, my understanding for, like, a blockchain, one good use case might be for, like, unique identities or something. Taking the more practical approach, sometimes I think people forget in technology that we're just...the future is here, but it's not evenly distributed. And there is paper being sent in boxes. And sometimes we can make a big impact, which is very simple solutions. But even simple solutions aren't simple to implement and make change happen.
\n\nSo, I'm wondering if you have any advice for founders who are facing a big change management that they're trying to push through. What advice would you give them to kind of start making inroads into that?
\n\nLONNI: There are companies who make hundreds of millions of dollars helping [laughs] other companies through change management, and it's not lost on me that it's its own business. What we have really come to understand is you need to meet everyone where they're at. The tools that we've built are simple. You learn SmartCert in five minutes. It is how processes change that have been in place since the beginning of time for this company.
\n\nAnd I think when it comes down to it, there are plenty of business owners and C-suite executives that can say, "Yes, this makes sense. We're going to do it." But being voluntold as the user who needs to not only learn something new but move out of their comfort zone figure out how to learn while doing your job every day, those are the people that I really think is important to support. They're going to mean the success of the adoption. And they are the ones that deserve the cheerleading.
\n\nSo, with change management, my advice would be is to think about every single person that this affects in the company, understand who is able to realize immediate benefits, whose are maybe more short-term once this is launched or as your customers adopt it. And then who benefits, and how do they benefit for the long-term? Because you sort of need to help them keep their eye on the prize to get through the steps, it's going to require to change the way they show up every day.
\n\nWILL: So, Victoria asked you about advice that you're glad that you didn't take. Was there any advice that you're like, "Wow, that was the best advice, and I am so glad that we did follow it"?
\n\nLONNI: Towards the end of last year when, we sort of accepted our fate that standard sales, SaaS sales, was not going to work for us. Lyndon, the founder and one of the members of our board, had a really great conversation around relationships, especially with these antiquated industries. And if you are new technology, the real key to winning business, sort of earning that street cred, being accepted as a thought leader, is to make relationships with people.
\n\nIt is still a person-to-person decision that helped us prioritize attending regional conferences and industry conferences to meet people face to face as often as possible to build the trust and to be able to build the relationships that will help create the confidence in every company we talk to about moving forward but making sure that there's still a human element involved.
\n\nWILL: I love that advice. Yeah, it's interesting how many companies, I feel like, forget that, is that the people is the reason that your company exists. I don't know where I got it from, but someone told me it's three Ps that, like, what is kind of the foundation for your company. I think it's people, processes, and products. If you can nail those three things, like you will be successful majority of the time. And I thought that was very interesting.
\n\nLONNI: It's so true. Empowering people and accepting the challenges that they face, being real about what change means for them, being able to, you know, speak their language, and acknowledge what taking on new commitments and new processes means for them is going to be the way to be successful.
\n\nVICTORIA: And how does your balance feel between your life and your family, that you've mentioned, and working for this company trying to get it off the ground?
\n\nLONNI: There are times where I'm proud being able to show my daughters that you can do it all, but it's hard to do it all. I'm grateful to work from home because it does enable me to not only work in yoga pants all day but to have time for self-care. So, the endorphins at the gym are survival for me. Being able to find your people...I was so lucky to be a part of StartupAZ, which is a cohort here in Arizona of just about a dozen companies. And we got together on a monthly basis to talk through what's working, what's not working, sort of setting goals for ourselves but also commiserating.
\n\nBecause I feel like being an entrepreneur can feel really isolating. I don't think there's many people that understand what this means on a daily basis. There's certainly a whole new language beyond that with tech founders. And it helped me feel seen in a way that I can't articulate or get from my friends. So, that was really important for me.
\n\nWhat I try and be really sensitive to is this is a grind, but I'm doing it on behalf of my family. So, prioritizing time, even if it's, well, you know what? I'm going to drive you to school because that means I get 10 minutes in the car one one-on-one with you. Those are the things that I think if you're going to have less time, find ways to make it more meaningful without screens and phones, and just connect to your people. That's been important to me.
\n\nThere are days that I'm better at it. This week has not been great simply because we have some big deadlines. And I do still try and prioritize things like the gym simply because my brain works so much better with [chuckles] endorphins than without. So, you'll have parental guilt. But if you really remind yourself that you're showing up for the greater good and you're doing it for your people, then your people will still always be in the forefront.
\n\nWILL: Do you have any foreseeable hurdles coming up with SmartCert?
\n\nLONNI: This is a big year for us. We, as many tech companies, have worked really hard to extend our runway. The funding [chuckles] world, the milestones, and markers required for a Series A round have all changed a lot since we were funded. And I think the hurdles we face is to demonstrate enough of momentum, great outcomes with our pilots, with these larger companies, to be able to go back to our investors and expand the future with the funding we'll need to continue to scale. So, that's probably a consistent point of view for a lot of tech companies.
\n\nIt's sort of that make-or-break year. But we feel pretty good about it certainly because of the changes we've made to the way we go to market, but also the features we released this year in support of these larger conversations and being able to bring on someone who's going to then have 2,400 of their suppliers join the network. So, there's a lot of potential, but there's also a lot at risk.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. So, I'm curious how that process was when you decided to pivot and you decided to create some new features to meet what your customers were telling you. How did you go about getting the support you needed to build those features?
\n\nLONNI: One thing that I think we did okay at, but if I had to look back, I'd say we should have done more of, is talking to the companies represented on SmartCert, certainly our paid customers. But those conversations helped us prioritize the features that would enable them to work smarter, to reduce risk, to be more efficient, to grow in a way that's going to support and embrace technology as it's introduced to the industry.
\n\nSo, when you think back to what can you learn, it should always be the people that are using your product. We have, in this year, created a lot of internal tools so that once you do receive documents, or if you're a manufacturer and you're generating documents, centralizing those for access among teams, and creating a really automated process to send those to customers was the focus. And the conversation now has moved, as I mentioned, to the supplier side. And that's one area where I think we have the greatest opportunity for growth simply because it is the one area of the business you have the least control over.
\n\nSo, we've kind of come full circle with building the tools that make sense for those that are using it now and building a new path to participate on a network or create efficiencies by making standard processes. Even if your suppliers aren't participating on SmartCert, we are going to be launching the ability to take the documents, as I mentioned, and turn them into SmartCerts. That, to me, I think presents the greatest opportunity for us to really build a lot of momentum.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And so, you have your own team of developers working on this. Are you working with, like, an outsourced team? Or how did you structure the type of technical skills you needed to bring into the team?
\n\nLONNI: Our partner company that built our MVP, TechFabric, is still connected with us. So, if we have integrations, their team usually assists us with those SmartCert integrations into things like ERPs and just legacy systems that our customers are using. What they helped us with is to kind of provide the ideal candidate framework based on their knowledge of not only where the platform needs to go but the requirements and capabilities it requires, and participated in interviews to help us build our internal team. So, without having leadership in technology, that was a huge win for us to have an advisor and a supporter to be able to have the conversations we weren't qualified to have in order to hire the right people.
\n\nVICTORIA: Gotcha. That makes sense. And maybe I missed this point earlier. But how did you meet them, or how did you find them?
\n\nLONNI: Well, the story is a good one. We're based in Gilbert, Arizona. And as we were exploring what the options were, obviously trying to prioritize local relationships and partnerships, we did a Google search and ended up just having great conversations and feeling very fortunate that they were in our backyard and still are a really strong partner.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that makes sense. And having someone nearby, too, probably helps to just make it all feel a little cozier, so I love that. I love hearing about it and that they've helped you get to a place you want to be with the app. I'm so grateful to hear your story and hear more about what y'all are working on. Is there anything else that you would like to promote?
\n\nLONNI: It's always fun having these conversations because sometimes you forget, you know, you're stuck in the minutiae of the day-to-day. And I just appreciate being able to tell the story and be reminded of how far we've come. And certainly celebrate and challenge anyone else who's considering a [inaudible 41:24] at this to take it.
\n\nAnd if there's any advice that I would want to leave everyone with is to prioritize sleep [laughs] because it's the secret weapon. And I can tell that the days that I don't get enough, I don't think the way that I should. And it's almost like sleep is the new drug. And find any way possible, whether it's white noise, CBD, black-out shades, find your peace because sleep is your friend.
\n\nWILL: I totally agree with that.
\n\n[chuckles]
\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you so much for your time and for being here with us today.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nWILL: And you could find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.
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\n\nQuincy Larson is the founder of freeCodeCamp.org, which helps people learn to code for free by creating thousands of videos, articles, and interactive coding lessons–all freely available to the public. Quincy shares his journey from transitioning from teaching into software development, how freeCodeCamp was born out of his desire to make educational systems more efficient through coding, and discusses the early challenges of bootstrapping the platform, and how it has now grown into a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.
\n\nQuincy and hosts Victoria and Will, discuss the platform's technical architecture, especially their global server distribution and decision to rely on volunteer-led translation efforts rather than machines to ensure both the quality and human touch of their educational content. He also talks about the state of free and low-cost degree programs, the student loan crisis, and the ongoing debate between traditional computer science degrees and coding bootcamps.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robot Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Quincy Larson, Host of the freeCodeCamp Podcast, Teacher, and Founder of freecodecamp.org, a community of people around the world who are learning to code together. Quincy, thank you for joining us.
\n\nQUINCY: Yeah, thanks for having me, Will and Victoria.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, thank you for being here. So, I understand that you made a big shift personally for yourself from California to Texas. How has that been for your family and for, you know, as a founder who is running a nonprofit?
\n\nQUINCY: Yeah, things are going great. It was a big move. We had some kids, and it was difficult to find, like, a good place to live in California that didn't cost, like, millions of dollars [laughter]. And so, at least in the San Francisco Bay Area, we were living in East Bay.
\n\nI grew up here in Texas and Oklahoma. And I was like, well, maybe we could go back to the southwest, and so we did that. And we were able to come back and comfortably purchase a home here in Plano, Texas. We were able to find one that was, like, really close to a really good public school system. And so, every morning, I'm able to walk my kids to school.
\n\nAnd I'd say that Texas has been a great change from California, where I lived for seven or eight years over there. And I love California. Texas has a lot of great things about it, too. It is a little bit hotter than California. It doesn't quite have California's Mediterranean climate, but it's been great here. I like it. And I would say if people are thinking about moving to Texas from California, there are definitely some really good spots of Texas that I think they'll feel really comfortable in.
\n\nWILL: That's awesome, yeah. I'm originally from Louisiana. So, you're bringing back, like, memories of me growing up, always going to Texas and stuff. And I know exactly where Plano is, so that's amazing. How has it been with your kids? Because we were talking, and you said your kid recently started school. How's that been?
\n\nQUINCY: Yeah, so my daughter started school a couple of years ago, and she just turned eight. And my son he's turning six this weekend. He just started kindergarten. We were having him take classes at the YMCA some pre-school. And he went from doing that for the first few hours of the day, and then we'd pick him up and bring him home and eat lunch with him and everything.
\n\nAnd now he's got to go to school from, like, 7:00 a.m. to, like, 3:00 p.m. And he's been freaking out, like, "Why is school so long? Oh my goodness, I'm so tired all the time," [laughs]. So, he didn't realize that school would be as involved a process. He was all excited. But now he's complaining about, like, just the sheer length of school. But meanwhile, my wife and I we're just, like, celebrating because we actually have some time around the house where we can get work done without having kids running around causing chaos [laughs]. So yeah, I think he's adapting. He's making friends. We're doing playdates and stuff, and he's having fun. It's just a transition, you know.
\n\nBut it is nice because before, I would walk my daughter to school, and that was a very quick, 10-minute round trip, and then I'd walk my son to school. And that was, like, an hour round trip because we walked all the way to the YMCA. And I would do that to kind of toughen him up and get him walking a lot. It was a huge chunk of time. And now I can just grab both, one [inaudible 4:04] hand in each hand, and walk them to school, and drop them off, and be done with it and get back to work. So, it's definitely nice having both at the same school.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love the work-life balance and that you were able to find and live somewhere that's affordable and has enough space for your family. And I wonder if we can draw a connection there between achieving that kind of lifestyle and learning to code, and what the mission of freeCodeCamp is for you, and what that means to people and changing careers.
\n\nQUINCY: Absolutely. So, my background is in teaching. And I was a teacher and a school director at schools here in the U.S. and over in China. And that involved me being on campus, like working directly with my admin staff, with my instructional staff, and working directly with students. So, working remotely was kind of, like, a foreign concept way back in, like, 2010 or so 2011 when I started my transition into working as a software developer.
\n\nBut being able to work remotely has been a real game changer for me. And also, you can imagine, like, being a developer, you can command much larger compensation, and you have a lot more career options than being a teacher or a school director. So, it's given me a lot of agency in what I wanted to do. Even before, you know, starting freeCodeCamp, when I was working as a software developer and doing freelance work and stuff, I was able to do everything remotely. And that just gave me a ton of flexibility.
\n\nSo, the way that I learned to code personally was I wanted to help our school be more efficient. A lot of our teachers, a lot of our admin they were spending all day kind of chained to their desk entering information into computers for compliance reasons, to be able to produce great reports, to be able to produce attendance reports, immigration documents, all those things. And I just thought, like, is there a way that maybe I could automate some of this?
\n\nAnd I didn't know anything about programming. I was about 31 years old. I was just sitting at my desk, and I just started kind of, like, Googling around and learning some very basic programming. And with that, over the course of a few months, I was really able to transform how the school ran. And we, like, won an award. And, like, a whole bunch of the students were, like, having a great time because they were spending so much more time with their teachers. And they were like, "Hey..." like, telling all their friends and family to transfer into the school. So, it was a massive success.
\n\nAnd I thought, wow, if one person who doesn't even really know that much about programming can effect such a change with just a little bit of programming skills, imagine what I could do if I actually learned to code properly, so [chuckles] I did that. I spent about nine months going to hackathons every weekend, and reading a lot of books, and using a lot of open courses online, like from MIT, from Stanford, and I kind of taught myself to code for free.
\n\nAnd then, I was able to get a job as a developer at a mid-size tech startup in California. And from there, I just learned more and more, and it was amazing. And it was an amazing transformation for me personally. And I thought, well, I want to help other people be able to do this because I know so many people out there would like to be working in a field where they have more conversation, a higher degree of control. They get to do creative work instead of, you know, tedious work.
\n\nAs a developer, you're constantly doing new stuff because code is infinitely reproducible. So, you could always just go back to code you've previously written if you needed to solve the same problem again. So, you're always in this kind of learning mindset. You're always in this problem-solving mindset. And it's really thrilling. It's just great, impactful work. So, I wanted to help more people be able to do that, hence starting a bunch of different projects that people didn't care about and then eventually starting a project that people did care about, which is freeCodeCamp. And since then, just kind of leading this project in trying to help as many people as possible learn to code.
\n\nWILL: So, I was looking at your website. And I didn't even realize this until I was doing more research for the podcast, but you have over 10,000 tutorials, and they're in different categories. I saw you just recently released one on finance, which I actually bookmarked it because I'm going to go through it and look at it. You help more than a million people every day. So, how was it when you first started out? Like, how was, I guess, you could say, the grind? How was it in those early days?
\n\nQUINCY: I'm a big advocate of, you know, for work-life balance, but, like, I kind of, like, exclude founders from that. I really do think that if you're trying to get something started, you're going to have to work really hard and probably way beyond what would be reasonable for a person who's getting a salary or working at an existing company if you're trying to get things started. So, I mean, it was, like, 100-hour weeks, maybe 120 some weeks [laughs].
\n\nI would sleep and just wake up and get to my desk and try to, like, put out fires, fix the server, improve the codebase, respond to learners in the community who had feedback, deal with support issues. Like, I was basically doing everything myself. And gradually, we were able to, like, build out the team over a long period of time. But really, the first few years was me self-financing everything with just my teacher savings. I spent, like, $150,000 of my own money just trying to keep freeCodeCamp going.
\n\nFor the first couple of years, we got tax-exempt status from the IRS. When that finally happened, I was like, great, like, let's go out and see if we can get some people to donate. So, we started asking people who were using freeCodeCamp if they'd be willing to donate $3 a month and eventually $5 a month, and we were able to support the organization through that. Really, it's just like a grassroots donor-supported effort.
\n\nAnd then, we've been able to get some grants from Linux Foundation, and From Google, from Microsoft, from a whole lot of other big tech companies, and from some other nonprofits in the space. But mostly, it's just been, like, individual donors donating $5. And if you get enough people doing that, you get, like, a budget where you can actually pay for, you know, we have more than 100 servers around the world serving freeCodeCamp in, like, six different languages.
\n\nWe have, you know, all these other, like, initiatives. Like, we've got Code Radio, where you can go listen to Lo-fi while you're coding. And there are servers all over the world. And you can change the bit rate to suit whatever data you have and everything. Like, we wanted to just offer a whole lot of different services. We have mobile apps now. We've got an iOS and an Android app for freeCodeCamp. And then, of course, we've got the podcasts. We've got four podcasts: one in English, which I host, and then we've got one in Spanish, one in Portuguese, and one in Chinese.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I absolutely want to ask you more about your podcasts. But first, I wanted to hear–can you tell me a little more about the decision to be 501(c)(3) or a nonprofit status? And were you always firm in that decision? Do people question it? And what was the real reasoning and commitment to that formation?
\n\nQUINCY: I guess I would consider myself an idealist. Like, I genuinely believe that most educational endeavors should be, you know, nonprofit. They should be driven by either governments or by charities. I'm always kind of skeptical when there's, like, some late-night TV commercial, like, "Viewer, we'll help you get our degree," and it's from, like, a private for-profit university, something like that.
\n\nSo, I was like, in education...and I don't think everything in society needs to be that way, but I do think, like, education and, to an extent, healthcare these should be led by charities. Like, you know, the Red Cross, or, like, Doctors Without Borders, or churches, you know, own many of the universities, many of the hospital systems in the United States. I think that's a good thing. I think it's a very good thing that it's not just, you know, private profit-maximizing, market incentive-bound organizations that are doing all the stuff in education and in healthcare.
\n\nI wanted to try to create something that, like, a lot of other people would see and say, "Oh wow, this charity can actually survive. It can sustain itself without raising a bunch of VC, without going public," or any of those things that a for-profit entity would do. And, again, I just want to emphasize, like, I don't think that iPhones should be made [chuckles] by nonprofits or anything like that.
\n\nI'm just saying, like, for the purpose of actually educating people, the incentives are not necessarily aligned when you're trying to get money from...especially when you're talking about people that 60% of people on earth live off less than $10 a day. Those people should be spending their money on food. They should be spending their money on shelter. They should be spending their money on family. They should not be spending money on online courses, in my humble opinion. Like, online courses should be freely available to those people.
\n\nSo, to some extent, freeCodeCamp, we want to make sure that everybody everywhere in the world has access to first-rate learning resources on math, programming, computer science, regardless of their ability to pay. So, that's kind of, like, the ideal logical [inaudible 12:19], I guess, of freeCodeCamp. We kind of live that. Like, we're really serious. We will never pay, well, anything on freeCodeCamp. We won't account email gate anything. We are, I guess, absolutist in the sense that we want all of freeCodeCamp's learning resources to be free for everyone.
\n\nBecause of that, it made sense to like, incorporate as a 501 (c)(3) public charity. And so, we're tax-exempt. And people who donate to freeCodeCamp they can, you know, deduct it from their U.S. taxes. If a large company or even a small startup...we've had lots of startups like New Relic, like Retool, we've had Postman, Hostinger, a whole lot of different startups and mid-sized tech companies, Pulumi, Appsmith, they've all given us these grants that we can use to develop courses. So, we can often develop courses incorporating those resources. But that's tax-exempt, right? They can deduct that from their U.S. taxes.
\n\nSo, it's a big incentive for other people to partner with us and for people to donate funds to us. And it allows us to have the interests aligned in the sense that only people who have, you know, free cash flow or who have disposable income those are the people that are supporting freeCodeCamp.
\n\nFor the people that are, you know, single parents or that are taking care of their aging relatives, or are already working two jobs, or are completely unemployed and don't have any funds to speak of that are using the public library computer to access freeCodeCamp, right? Or using freeCodeCamp on a $50 prepaid phone from Walmart or something like that, right? Like those people can still use freeCodeCamp, and we can have the people who do have resources subsidize everyone else.
\n\nWILL: Wow. I absolutely love that because...and I wish freeCodeCamp was around whenever I was in, like, high school and, you know, the early 2000s because we just didn't have the resources because I grew up in a small town in Louisiana. And this could have been so beneficial to that community because, like you said, we didn't have the resources–someone to teach coding there. There was no developers around that town that I was in. So, I really appreciate that you're doing this for everyone.
\n\nAnd I know for me even...so, when I reached out to you, I did it because I was excited because I've used freeCodeCamp so many times, so many times to learn just in my journey to become a senior developer. Like, freeCodeCamp was one of the resources that I used because, one, it was free. But it wasn't...I think sometimes you can get free resources, and it's not great quality almost. Like, it's almost like you're more confused than before. But with freeCodeCamp, it was very, very amazing quality. And it was very clear on what I was learning. Honestly, thank you for helping me grow as a developer, just, honestly, thank you for that.
\n\nQUINCY: Absolutely, Will. I feel honored to have helped you. And, yes, we want to help all the kids who are growing up in rural Louisiana or...I'm from, you know, Oklahoma City, not, like, the biggest, most prosperous city in the United States. Like, I want to help all of my friends who growing up who were eating meals provided by the state school system or my older friends who are on disability. Like, I want to make sure that they have resources, too.
\n\nAnd in the process of doing that, it's a privilege to also serve all the working software engineers like you out there who just need, like, a reference resource or, like, oh, I've heard about Bun JS or Tailwind CSS. Or something like, I'm going to watch this three-hour course where I'm going to learn how to do Flutter. Like, freeCodeCamp has a 37-hour Flutter course. So, we've got, like, all these courses on using OpenAI APIs and things like that, too, right?
\n\nSo, it's not just for beginners, but we definitely want to, like, first and foremost, we want to serve people who we're kind of, like, the resource of last resort for, if you want to think of it that way. Like, only freeCodeCamp can help these people. Sure, they can probably use some other free courses on YouTube. And there are lots of other blogs that publish good tutorials and stuff. But freeCodeCamp is like an organized effort, specifically to help those people in need. And just kind of a side benefit of it is that you know, more established, experienced devs like you also get kind of, like, some benefit out of it as well.
\n\nWILL: Whenever you were a developer, and you decided to start freeCodeCamp, how many years of experience did you have? And how did you overcome impostor syndrome, not only as a developer but as a founder? Because I feel like just overcoming it as a developer is hard, but you were also, you know, like you said, you know, handling everything for freeCodeCamp. So, how did you do that? And kind of tell us about that experience.
\n\nQUINCY: Yeah. So, I didn't really know what I was doing. I think most founders probably don't know what they're doing. And I think that's totally fine because you can learn while you're doing. And we live in the United States, which is a country that kind of rewards experimentation and does not punish failure as much as a lot of other cultures does. Even if you try really hard, you're going to learn a tremendous amount, and you're going to try your next project. And that's what I did. I tried...I launched several educational, like, open learning resource-type projects, and none of them made any dent at all [laughs] in the proverbial universe. Like, nobody cared.
\n\nLike, I would go and, like, I'd be talking to people. And I'd be explaining, like, "Oh, this solves this problem that you have." And you could kind of tell, like, people would sign in one time just to be polite, but then they'd never sign in again. So, it was very tricky to get traction. And I read a bunch of books. And I went to a lot of founder-focused meetups in San Francisco Bay Area. I had, like, moved out to San Francisco, specifically to try to, like, kind of make up for my deficit, the fact that I didn't know anybody because I was from Oklahoma City.
\n\nI didn't know anybody in tech. And I didn't have, like, a fancy, you know, pedigree from, like, Harvard, or Wharton, or something like that, right? Like, I went to, like, a state university, and I studied English, right? And [chuckles] so, I didn't even have, like, a CS degree or anything like that. So, I definitely felt like an impostor. I just had to kind of, like, power through that and be okay with that.
\n\nAnd it's something a little bit easier for me to do because, you know, I'm a White guy with glasses and a beard. And, like, nobody's walking up saying, "Are you sure you're a developer?" Or like, "Are you in marketing?" You know, like, the typical kind of, like, slight that they may say to somebody who doesn't necessarily look like me. And so I didn't have to deal with any of that nonsense, but there was still a lot of just self-doubt that I had to power through. And I think that was a big advantage for me. It was just, like, I was kind of, like, at war with myself and my own confidence.
\n\nIn fact, I found the software development community, and especially the open-source community, to be incredibly uplifting and empowering. And, like, they want to see you win. They want you to sit down and build a really cool project over the weekend and in the hackathon and present it. And, you know, they want you to learn. They know that you know, everybody is going to learn at a different rate and that a lot of people are going to get discouraged and leave tech and just go back to working in whatever field they were working in before. And that's totally cool.
\n\nBut I do feel that they're there to support you and to encourage you. And there are lots of different events. There are lots of different communities. I recently listened to the founder of Women Who Code, who was on this very podcast [laughs], Giant Robots Smashing Into Giant Robots, the greatest podcast name of all time. And, you know, there are people out there that are working very hard to make it easier for folks to get into tech. I think that that has been a huge part.
\n\nEven before freeCodeCamp, you know, there were Harvard professors–Stanford professors putting their entire coursework for free online. You could go to, like, different tech events around California, for example, where I was when I was learning to code. And there'd just be tons of people that were eager to, like, learn more about you and to welcome you. And there would be, you know, recruiters that would talk to you and say, "Well, you may not be ready yet, but, like, let's talk in six months," right?
\n\nAnd so, there was kind of, like, that spirit of you're going to get there. It's just going to take a lot of time. Nobody was telling me, "Oh, learning to code is easy," [chuckles] because it's not easy. There were lots of people that were, like, "Learning to code is hard. But you've got this. Just stick with it. If I could be of help, let me know," people who would pair program with me to help me, like, improve my chops, people who would volunteer to, like, look at my projects and give design feedback, all those kinds of things.
\n\nAnd I think you're going to find all those things on the web. You're going to find those things in the open-source community. freeCodeCamp has a forum where people volunteer their time and energy to help build one another up and help one another get unstuck on whatever projects they're working on, give feedback on projects. And so, I think, to a large extent, the very giving nature, I almost want to say, like, selfless nature, of the global software developer community that is what saved me. And that's what enabled me to transition into this field, even as a teacher in his 30s.
\n\nVICTORIA: It's interesting you say that. Because I feel as someone who hires engineers and developers, I love people who have teaching backgrounds because it means they're five-star communicators [laughs]. And I think that you know, in your job, when you're pairing with other developers, or you're talking to clients, in our case, that communicating what you're working on and how you're thinking about something is, like, 50% of the job [laughs].
\n\nFor freeCodeCamp, I saw you have 40,000 people have found jobs after completing courses on there. I hope you feel like you've really, like, established some success here already. But what's on the horizon? What are you looking forward to in the next six months or six years with freeCodeCamp?
\n\nQUINCY: Yeah, I'll be happy to answer that. But I want to emphasize what you just said: communication is, like, half the job. That's something that thoughtbot has gotten really early on. And I'll tell you that thoughtbot Playbook was incredibly helpful for me as a software developer and also early on for freeCodeCamp's team. And I think a lot of teams make use of that open resource.
\n\nSo, thank you for continuing to maintain that and kind of drive home that communication really is...like, meetings are essential [chuckles]. And it's not always just, like, leave me alone and let me go back to my cubicle and code. You know, I like to quote the old joke that, you know, weeks of coding can save you hours of meetings because I really do believe that communication is core.
\n\nSo, to answer your question about where freeCodeCamp is headed in terms of what kind of impact we'd like to have, I feel like we're just getting started. I feel like pretty much every Fortune 500 company wants to become a tech company in some way or another. Everybody is pushing things to the software layer because software is infinitely reproducible. It's so much easier to maintain software or fix things in production.
\n\nLike, you realize, oh, there's a big problem. Like, we don't have to recall all the cars back to the dealerships to go and open up the hood and fix this, you know, mechanical defect. If we're controlling all these things at the software layer, right? We can potentially just deploy a fix and tell people like, "Hey, version update [chuckles], you know, download this security patch," or whatever, right?
\n\nSo, there are so many different things that you can do with software. I feel like the potential growth of the field of software and the number of software developers that the world will ultimately need...currently, we've got maybe 30 or 40 million developers on earth that are professional paid-to-code people. But I think that number is going to increase dramatically over the next 50 years or so.
\n\nAnd I'll go ahead and address the elephant in the room [laughs] because pretty much everybody asks me this question like, "Don't you think that, like, tools like large language models like GPT-4 and things are going to obviate the need for so many developers?" And I think they're going to make individual developers more productive.
\n\nBut if you think about what code is, it's really extremely explicit directions for how to do something, whether you're using, you know, machine code, or you're using a scripting language like Python, or you're using English, and you're talking directly to the computer like you would on Star Trek. Essentially, you have to have a really deep understanding of the problem. And you need to know exactly what needs to be done in exactly what sequence. You may not need to manipulate bytecode like you would back in the '70s. But you are going to need to understand the fundamental problems, and you're going to need to be able to address it.
\n\nSo, I'm optimistic that the number of developers is going to continue to grow. The developers are going to continue to command more and more, I guess, respect in society. And they're going to continue to have more and more agency in what they want to do with their careers and have more and more options and, ultimately, be able to command higher compensation, be able to work remotely if they'd like.
\n\nDevelopers will continue to be able to ascend through corporate hierarchies and become, you know, vice presidents or even executives like the CEO, right? If you look at a lot of the big tech companies, the CEO is a developer. And I think that that will continue. And the computer science degrees will continue to be extremely valuable.
\n\nSo, what is freeCodeCamp working on now that we think will further help people? Well, we're working on a free four-year computer science degree, a Bachelor in computer science, and there's also an associate in mathematics that we're developing. And those are going to be a progression of 40 university-level courses that have labs and have a substantial block of lectures that you'll watch. And then, we'll also have final examinations and everything. And we're developing that curriculum. We've got one of the courses live, and we're developing the second one, and eventually, we'll have all 40. It'll take till the 2030s. But we're going to have those.
\n\nAnd then, once we have some longitudinal data about graduates and their success rates and everything, we are going to apply for the accreditation process, and we're going to get accredited as a university, right? Like, you can go through that process. Not a lot of organizations do that; not a lot of new universities are coming about in the 2020s. But it is something that can be done. And we've done a great deal of research, talked to a bunch of accreditors, talked to a bunch of university admins who go through the accreditation process. We think we can do it.
\n\nSo, again, very long-term goal. But when you're a 501(c)(3) public charity, you don't have to worry about freeCodeCamp getting acquired or all the things that would traditionally happen with, like, a for-profit company. You have a lot more leeway to plan really far. And you've got, like, this really broad mandate in terms of what you want to accomplish. And even if, you know, creating a university degree program in the 2030s would not be a profitable endeavor that, like, a rational shareholder value-maximizing corporation would embark upon, it is the sort of project that, you know, a charity like freeCodeCamp could do. So, we're going to do it.
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\n\nVICTORIA: I think that's great. And, actually, you know, I got my master's in information technology and project management online way back when. So, I really like the availability of modern computer science bachelor's and master's being available at that low price point. And you're able to pursue that with the business structure you put in place.
\n\nI'm curious to kind of go back to something you said earlier on how widely available it is and how you spread out across all these multiple countries. Were there any technical architecture decisions that you had to make along the way? And how did those decisions end up turning out?
\n\nQUINCY: Absolutely. So, one of the things we did was we located servers all around the world. We're multi-cloud, and we've got servers in different data centers in, like, Singapore, Europe, Latin America, and we're trying to reduce latency for everybody. Another thing that we've done is, you know, we don't use, like, Google Translate to just translate all our different pages into however many languages are currently available on Google Translate; I think it's, like, more than 100. We actually have a big localization effort that's led primarily by volunteers. We have some staff that oversee some of the translation.
\n\nAnd essentially, we have a whole bunch of people working at translate.freecodecamp.org and translating the curriculum, translating the tutorials into major world languages. Most prominently would be Spanish, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Portuguese, Ukrainian. Like, all these different world languages, there's, like, a freeCodeCamp version for those, and you can go into the menu, and you can choose it. And it's actually, like, hand-translated by native speakers of that language who are developers.
\n\nSo, that's been another extremely, you know, time-intensive effort by the community. But we believe that, you know, the quality of the translations is really important. And we want that kind of human touch. We don't want kind of weird artifacts and typos that would be associated with machine translation. And we want to make sure that each of the challenges...because they're extremely tersely worded, again, communication is so important.
\n\nIf you go through the freeCodeCamp curriculum, we try to use as few words as absolutely necessary to effectively communicate what the task the learner needs to accomplish is, and we try to, just in time, teach them concepts. We don't want to present them with a big wall of text. Read this 20-page PDF to understand how, you know, CSS, you know, borders work or something like that. No, we're teaching, like, kind of, like, just in time, like, okay, let's write this line of code. Okay, great, the test passed. Let's go to this next one. This test isn't passing. Here is some contextual-specific hints as to why your code is not passing, why you're not able to advance, right?
\n\nAnd we do projects [inaudible 30:30] to learn where we break everything down into steps. So, that's a lot of instructions that need to be very carefully translated into these different world languages to truly make freeCodeCamp accessible to everyone, regardless of whether they happen to be fortunate enough to grow up speaking English at a native level, right?
\n\nI would say that's our main consideration is, like, the localization effort but also just having servers everywhere and doing everything we can to comply with, like, all the different data rules and privacy rules and everything of all these different countries. It's a lot of work, but in my humble opinion, it's worth it.
\n\nWILL: I had, like, a two-part question because I wanted to loop back around. When you're talking about the free bachelor's program, one, does anything like that exist where you can get a bachelor-level program, and it's free? And then the second part is, how many countries are you in?
\n\nQUINCY: Yeah, so currently, lots of governments in Europe, for example, will offer free degrees that are kind of subsidized by the state. There may be some other kind of degree equivalent programs that are offered that are subsidized by corporations. For example, if you work at Starbucks, I think you can get a degree from Arizona State University. And that's a great benefit that Starbucks offers to people. Arizona State University, of course, being one of the biggest public universities in the United States in terms of enrollment.
\n\nAs far as free degrees, though, in the United States, there's nothing like that where, like, literally anyone can just go and get a degree for free without needing to enroll, without needing to pay any sort of fees. There are tuition-free programs, but they still charge you fees for, like, taking exams and things like that.
\n\nWhat I like to call ultra-low-cost degree providers–there's Western Governors University, and there's University of the People. And both of these are accredited institutions that you can go, and you can get a degree for, you know, $5,000, $10,000, $15,000. And it's a full-blown four-year degree. Now, that is amazing. I applaud those efforts. I've enjoyed talking to the folks at those different schools.
\n\nI think the next step is to go truly free. There's nothing blocking you at all. You don't have to be banked. You don't have to have a credit card. You don't have to have any money. You can still get this degree. That's what we're chasing. And I think we'll get there, but it's just a lot of work.
\n\nWILL: So, it's blowing my mind. It's just blowing me away because, like, you know, we talk about the student loan crisis, I would say. The impact if...when—I'm not going to say if—when you do this, the impact that can have on there, have you thought about that? And kind of, if you have, what has been your thoughts around that?
\n\nQUINCY: Yeah, so there are $1.7 trillion in outstanding student loans in the United States. That's money that individual people, most of whom don't make a ton of money, right? Like, many of those people didn't actually finish the degree that they incurred the debt to pursue. Many of them had to drop out for a variety of different reasons or defer. Maybe they'll eventually finish those degrees. But as you can see from, like, the macroeconomic, educational, like, labor market data, like, having a partial degree doesn't make a big difference in terms of your earning power. You really need to finish the degree to be able to realize the benefits of having spent all that time studying, and a lot of people haven't.
\n\nSo, yes, there are, like, a lot of people out there that went to medical school, for example, and they're working as physicians. And they are going to eventually be able to pay that off because they're doctors, and they're commanding a great compensation, right? And they've got tons of career options.
\n\nBut if you studied English like I did and you incurred a whole lot of student debt, it could take a very long time for you to make enough money as a teacher, or as, like, a grant writer, or working at a newspaper, or something like that. Like, it can take you years to pay it off. And, in the meantime, it's just continuing to accumulate interest in your, you know, you might be a very diligent person who pays their student loan bill every single month, and yet, you could see that amount, the total amount that you owe continuing to grow despite this. That's just the nature of the time value of money and the nature of debt.
\n\nAnd I thank my lucky stars that I went to school back in, like, 2000. Like, my tuition was $1,000 a semester, right? I mean, it's incredible. But that was, like, at a state school, like, a public university in the middle of Oklahoma. And it's not, like, a university you've heard of. It's basically, like, the cheapest possible option. I think community colleges can make a huge dent. I always implore people to think more about community colleges.
\n\nI've talked with so many people on the freeCodeCamp podcast who were able to leverage community colleges and then transition into a, you know, research university, like a state school, and finish up their degree there. But they saved, like, basically half their money because they were paying almost nothing to attend the community college. And in California especially, the community colleges are just ridiculously worth it. Like, you're paying a few hundred dollars a course. I mean, it's just incredible value. So, I think the community college system is going to play a big role. But my hope is that, you know, freeCodeCamp can thrive.
\n\nAnd it'll take us years for people to realize because if you go on, like, Google Ads and you try to run a Google Ad for, like, any sort of educational-related topic, anything related to higher education, it's, like, hundreds of dollars per click because there are all these for-profit universities that make a tremendous amount of money from getting people who just came back from serving in the military and getting, like, huge chunks of their GI Bill, or getting, like, all these federal subsidies, any number of things. Or basically just tricking families into paying huge amounts of money when they could have attended a much more sensible public university, you know, a private nonprofit university that doesn't charge an arm and a leg.
\n\nSo, I think that we are going to have an impact. I just want to say that I don't think that this is a panacea. It's going to take many years for freeCodeCamp to be adopted by a whole lot of people. It will take a long time for employers to look at the freeCodeCamp degree and say, "Oh, this is comparable to a computer science degree from..." say, Ohio State, or UT Austin, or something like that, right? Like, it's going to be a long time before we can get that level of buy-in.
\n\nI don't want anybody listening to say, "Oh, I'd love to get a computer science degree. I'm just going to hold out and get the degree from freeCodeCamp." Like, my humble advice would be: go to a community college, then go to a state school. Get that four-year computer science degree. It is worth its weight in gold. But you don't want to accumulate a lot of debt. Just try to like, minimize your debt in the meantime.
\n\nAnd, hopefully, over time, you know, the free model will prove out, and it'll just be a whole bunch of alumni supporting freeCodeCamp. And that's the dream is that, like, you know, Michael Bloomberg gave a billion dollars to Johns Hopkins University, a billion dollars. Like, Johns Hopkins never needs to charge tuition again with a billion dollars. They can just basically operate their institution off the interest from that, right? And lots of institutions...like, Harvard has, I don't know, like, 60-plus billion dollars in their endowment, right?
\n\nSo, the idea would be freeCodeCamp continues to get this, you know, huge alumni network of people who are doing great and who went to freeCodeCamp and who basically donate back in. And then, we can essentially have the deep pockets subsidizing everybody else who's just at the beginning of their careers who don't have a lot of earning power.
\n\nYou know, when I was a teenager, when I was in my 20s, I worked at convenience stores. I worked at Taco Bell. I did all kinds of, like, literally showing up at 6:00 a.m. to mop the grocery store-type jobs, right? And that is not a path to being able to afford an education in 2023. University tuition is out of control. It's, like, ridiculously high. It's grown way faster than inflation for decades. So, what can we do to alleviate that pressure? In my humble opinion, we just need to come up with free options and support ultra-low-cost options that are already out there.
\n\nVICTORIA: I was going to ask, but you might have already answered this question somewhat. But I get this question a lot for people who are interested in getting into tech, whether they should get a computer science degree or go to a bootcamp. And I think you've mentioned all the positive things about getting a degree. I'm curious if, in your degree program, you would also tailor it more to what people might expect in a modern tech market and industry in their first job.
\n\nQUINCY: Yeah. So, the way that we're developing our degree program is we essentially did, like, an analysis of the top 20 computer science programs in the United States: Carnegie Mellon, Berkeley, Stanford, MIT, all those schools that you would think of as being, like, really good computer science programs. And we basically drew a best-fit line through all their course offerings and looked at all their textbooks and everything that they cover. And, essentially, we're teaching a composite of those top 20 programs.
\n\nNow, there are some things that, surprisingly, those programs don't offer, such as a course on ethics. It's something like 13% of those degree programs require an ethics course. And I think every developer should take a developer ethics course, or at least some sort of philosophy course to, like, understand what does it mean to be a good person? [laughs] Like, what is, you know, an anti-pattern? What is Blackhat user experiences? [laughs] I'm like, when should I, like, raise my hand during a meeting to say like, "Hey, should we really be doing this?" You know.
\n\nSo, ethics–security courses–I was surprised that not very many of those degree programs offer a course in information security, which I believe should be required. So, I'm kind of editorializing a little bit on top of what the composite says. But I feel very strongly that, you know, our degree program needs to have those courses. But in general, it's just everything that everybody else is teaching.
\n\nAnd yes, like, a coding bootcamp...I've written a lot about coding bootcamps. I wrote, like, a Coding Bootcamp Handbook, which you can just Google, like, "Coding bootcamp book" or something like that, probably then you can find it. But, essentially like, those programs are usually private. Even if it's at a big, public university, it's often run by a big, private for-profit bootcamp chain. I don't want to say, like, all bootcamps are a bad deal, but buyer beware [laughs].
\n\nFrankly, I don't think that you can learn everything you need to know to be a software engineer within the compressed timelines that a lot of those bootcamps are operating under. There's a reason it takes four years to get a computer science degree because: there's a tremendous amount of math, programming, computer science, engineering knowledge that you need to cultivate.
\n\nAnd you can absolutely get a developer job without a computer science degree. I don't have a computer science degree [chuckles], and I worked as a software engineer, right? And I know plenty of people who are doing that that didn't even go to college, right? People who were truckers or people who were doing construction work who just sat down and hit the books really hard and came out the other side being able to work as a software developer. But it is going to be vastly easier for you if you do have a computer science degree.
\n\nNow, if you're in your 30s, if you've got kids, if you've got a whole lot of other obligations, should you go back to school? Maybe not. And so, it's not cut and dry, like, oh, just drop whatever you're doing and go back to...The situation is going to be nuanced.
\n\nIf you've already got a job working as a developer, should you go back and get a CS degree? Probably not. Maybe you can get your employer to pay for you to go to, like, a CS master's program, for example. There are a lot of really good online master's degree programs. Like, Georgia Tech has a master's in computer science that is very affordable, and it's very good. Georgia Tech is one of the best computer science programs in the United States.
\n\nSo, definitely, like, everybody's situation is going to be different. And there's no blanket advice. I would just be very wary of, like, anybody who's talking to you who wants your money [laughs]. freeCodeCamp will never want your money for anything. Like, we would love to have your donation long after you're a successful developer. You turn around and, like, send the elevator back down by donating to freeCodeCamp.
\n\nBut just be skeptical and, like, do your research and don't buy into, like, the marketing speak about, like, being able to get a job immediately. "Oh, it's easy. Anybody can learn to code." Like, I do believe any sufficiently motivated person can learn to code. But I also believe that it's a process that can take years, especially if you're doing the safe thing and continuing to work your day job while you learn these skills over a much longer period of time.
\n\nI don't believe learning in a compressed kind of bootcamp...like, if you think about, you know, bootcamp in the military, like, this is, like, you're getting shipped away, and you're doing nothing but, like, learning these skills and everything like that. And I don't think that that's right for programming, personally [laughs].
\n\nI think there's a reason why many of these programs have gone from 9 weeks to 12 weeks to 6 months. Some of them might be, like, an entire year now. It's because it's them kind of admitting that, like, oh, there's quite a bit to learn here, and it's going to take some time. And there's diminishing returns to learning a whole bunch of hours in a day. I think you'll make much better gains studying programming 1 hour a day for 365 days than you'll make studying, you know, 8 hours a day for, like, two months or something like that if that makes sense. I'm not sure if the math works out there.
\n\nBut my point is, it's totally fine, and it's actually quite optimal to just work your day job, take care of your kids, spend time with your parents, you know, do all those things, hang out with friends and have a social life, all those things in addition to just having programming be one of those things you're working on in the background with your mornings or your evenings.
\n\nWILL: Tell us a little bit about your podcast. Yeah, tell us kind of what's the purpose of it and just the history of it.
\n\nQUINCY: Yeah. Well, I learned from the best. So, I'm a longtime listener of this podcast, of course. My friend, Saron Yitbarek, hosts CodeNewbie, which is an excellent podcast, the Changelog, which is an open-source podcast. I've had a great time interviewing the Changelog hosts and being on their show several times. So, I basically just learned as much as I could, and then I just went out and started interviewing people.
\n\nAnd so, I've interviewed a lot of devs. I've interviewed people that are, like, learning to code driving Uber. I've interviewed the founder of Stack Overflow [chuckles], Jeff Atwood. I'm going to interview the founder of Trello in a few weeks when I'm back out in New York City. And I do my interviews in person. I just have my mobile studio. When I'm in San Francisco–when I'm in New York, I just go around and do a bunch of interviews and kind of bank them, and then I edit them myself and publish them.
\n\nAnd the goal is just to give people exposure to developers. What are developers thinking? What are developers talking about? What do developers care about? And I try to hit, like, a very broad range of developers, try to talk to as many women as possible and, you know, striving for, like, 50% representation or better on the podcast. And I talk to a lot of people from different countries, although that's a little harder to do when you're recording in person. I may break down and do some over Zencastr, which is a tool we used in the past. I just like the spontaneity and the fun of meeting with people in person.
\n\nBut yeah, it's just like, if you are looking for, like, long-form, some of these are, like, two-and-a-half-hour long discussions, where we really delve into people's backstory and, like, what inspired them to become a developer, what they're learning along the way, how they feel about different aspects of software development. Like, for example, earlier, Will, you mentioned impostor syndrome, which is something I think virtually everybody struggles with in some capacity, you know, the freeCodeCamp podcast, tune in [chuckles] and subscribe.
\n\nAnd if you have any feedback for me, I'd love to hear it. I'm still learning. I'm doing my best as a podcast host. And I'm constantly learning about tech as it evolves, as new tools come out, as new practices are pioneered. There's entire new technologies, like large language models, that actually work. And, I mean, we've had those since, like, the '60s, like, language models and stuff, but, like, only recently have they become incredibly impressive, exploring these tools and exploring a lot of the people behind them.
\n\nVICTORIA: Okay, great. Do you have any questions for me or Will?
\n\nQUINCY: Yeah. What inspired you all to get involved in tech, in...I don't know if somebody...did somebody at thoughtbot actually approach you and say, "Hey, we want you to run this"? Or was it something where like, "I'd love to run this"? Like, because podcasting is not easy. You're putting yourself out there. You're saying things that are recorded forever [laughs]. And so, if you say something really naive or silly or something like that, that's kind of always there, right? It takes a certain amount of bravery to do this. What got you into hosting this podcast?
\n\nVICTORIA: For me, I mean, if I go way back before getting into tech, my mom she got her undergraduate degree in horticulture to become a florist, and then realized she couldn't make any money off that and went back to school for computer science. And so, she taught me how to use a computer really early on. And when I was in school, I had started in architecture, and then I wanted to change into business intelligence. But I didn't want to apply to the business school, so I got a degree in economics and a job at the IT help desk.
\n\nAnd then from there, I was able to kind of transition into tech as a teacher, which was oddly enough...my first job in tech was training a 400-person program how to do, like, version management, and peer reviews [laughs], and timekeeping. And the reason I got the job is a friend from rock climbing introduced me, and he's like, they're like, "Oh, well, you train people how to rock climb. You can train people how to, like, do this stuff." [laughs] I'm like, oh, okay, that sounds great.
\n\nBut anyways, I worked my way up into project management and ended up getting my masters in IT. And when I came to thoughtbot, I had just moved to California, and I wanted to rebuild my network. I had a big network in D.C., organizing meetups and DevOps D.C., Women Who Code, teaching people, and communicating. And I ran a very small podcast there with a friend.
\n\nSo, when I joined thoughtbot, a podcast was a great way to just meet different people, expand my network, give people something to talk to me about when I go to events [laughs] that's not just, like, let me sell you some DevOps work. For me, it's been really fun to just reach out to people that we admire in the community and hear their story, and a little bit about them, and what advice they have for themselves or for other people. And, usually, that ends up benefiting me as well. So, it's been very fun for me.
\n\nQUINCY: So, your less conventional path into tech combined with your own experience doing podcasting, it sounds like you were a natural choice for hosting a podcast.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And I think I said before we started the show I didn't realize that it was such a well-loved and long-running podcast [laughs] [inaudible 49:01]. But I think we've really come into our own a little bit with hosting, and it's been super fun to work with Will and Chad on it as well.
\n\nQUINCY: Awesome. And, Will, what's your story, man? How did you get onto the coveted Giant Robots Smashing into Giant Robots podcast?
\n\nWILL: I actually went to college for sports medicine, and I was on track to go to med school, but my senior year...which I wish I would have had this conversation with myself a lot earlier, didn't have to do the hard work that I did at undergraduate. But my senior year, I was like, why am I really going to med school? And, honestly, it was more for the money, for the...yeah, more for the money. I just wanted to get paid a lot of money. I was like, yeah, that's not going to sustain me. I need to just pivot.
\n\nSo, I pivoted–started working at some nonprofits. And I ended up losing my job and got another job at Buckle, the clothing store, which was not a great fit for me. It helped me provide, but that's just not who I am. I'm not a fashion icon [laughs]. And then I changed to a travel agency insurance company, which it paid the bills. I wasn't passionate about it at all, and it paid the bills. And I was still struggling from losing my job. It was the first time that I lost my job.
\n\nAnd my spouse came to me one day and is like, "All right, we're going to have the serious talk." And we almost flipped roles because that's usually who I am. I'm like, "All right, let's have a real talk. Let's get down to it." But I was just in a bad place. And she was like, "All right, we have to change because we can't keep going down this path."
\n\nSo, she was like, "If you had a choice to do anything, what would you want to do?" And I was like, "Well, probably something with computers and coding because I never had that opportunity when I was growing up because of the small town." And she looked at me, and she's like, "Go sign up right now." And I was like, okay, I'm going to sign up.
\n\nWhen you mentioned that you made a transition in your 30s, I was around my 30s when I made the transition into coding. And so, it was a big transition. It was a big pivot for me because I'm having to learn, almost like I'm in college again, which was eight years ago. And so, it was just tough, and it wasn't new. So, that's how I got into coding.
\n\nHow I got on the podcast: I think I was talking to Chad and my direct report. I was just talking to them about challenging myself, and so it was multiple things. But, like, writing blog posts that was actually very challenging to me. I still don't like to write. It's not my favorite thing. Give me math or something like that or science; that's where I feel at home. But whenever, you know, you talk about writing and stuff, I can do it, and I'm decent at it. But it's not something that I feel comfortable in. The same thing with the podcast.
\n\nThe reason why I got on here is because I wanted to get out of my comfort zone and I wanted to grow. And I also wanted to get a chance to talk to people who's making a difference–who's impacting the world. So, like, this conversation today is like, yes, this is why I wanted to be a part of this podcast. So yeah, that's how I got started in tech and on the podcast.
\n\nQUINCY: Awesome, Will. I'm thrilled that you went ahead and persevered and got into tech. It doesn't sound like it was a straight line, and it rarely is for people. But I'm always excited to meet somebody who learned to code in their 30s who stuck with it and is prospering as a result. So, congratulations to you.
\n\nWILL: Thank you.
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm still learning. I haven't quite got [inaudible 52:42] "Hello, worlds," multiple times [laughs]. But I don't really code every day for my job. I just kind of need to know what stuff is to be able to talk to people and in that way as a managing director. So, I appreciate Will bringing that backstory to this episode in particular. What else? Any other final takeaway that you'd like to leave our listeners with?
\n\nQUINCY: I just want to thank you all for continuing to host this podcast, thoughtbot for operating the excellent Playbook, which, for anybody listening who is unfamiliar with, you should check it out. Again, it's just chock full of institutional wisdom accumulated over the years.
\n\nAnd I hope everybody out there who's thinking about taking the plunge and learning coding or software development, or even, like, a semi-technical area of being in the software development process of learning visual design, learning how to do user experience research, any number of the different roles in tech, I hope you'll go for it. And I hope you will be as undaunted as you can. And just know that freeCodeCamp and the freeCodeCamp community we are in your corner.
\n\nIf you need to learn something, there's a very good chance that we have some tutorials written by thoughtful teachers who want people like you to come forward and like, read these resources and use it. There's a saying: like, the thing that programmers want the most is to have their code running in production somewhere. And, as a teacher, the thing you want the most is for you to have students, for you to have learning resources out there that are making a positive difference.
\n\nSo, again, I just count my blessings every day that I'm able to be involved in this community. I hope anyone listening who wants to transition into tech or to become even more technical gets involved in the freeCodeCamp community as well. We welcome you.
\n\nWILL: Are there any opportunities? I know we talked about donations. So, for one, where can they go if they want to donate? And then also, like, you know, if developers want to get to be a part of the open-source network you have, is that possible? And how can they do that?
\n\nQUINCY: Absolutely. So, if you want to donate to freeCodeCamp, just go to donate.freecodecamp.org. And you can become, like, a $5 a month donor, if you'd like. If you want to give a larger amount, I've got this article; just Google "How to Donate to freeCodeCamp." And I've written this detailed guide to, like, all the different ways like mailing checks.
\n\nWe had a gentleman who passed away and left a whole lot of money for freeCodeCamp in his will. So, those kinds of legacy gifts are definitely something. We've had people donate stock, like, any number of different things. I will bend over backwards to make sure that we can receive your donation, and we can give you a tax receipt so you can deduct it from your taxes as well if you'd like.
\n\nAnd then, for contributing to freeCodeCamp, of course, we're an open-source project, and we welcome your code contributions. We have spent a great deal of time trying to make freeCodeCamp as hospitable as possible for both new developers who want to get involved and more senior developers who just want to do some, like, 20%-time type contributing to open-source projects: contribute.freecodecamp.org. So, again, donate.freecodecamp.org and contribute.freecodecamp.org. Those will take you where you need to go.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. Thank you so much again, Quincy, for joining us.
\n\nAnd you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nWILL: And you could find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Quincy Larson.
Sponsored By:
We are thrilled to announce the third session of our new Incubator Program. If you have a business idea that involves a web or mobile app, we encourage you to apply to our eight-week program. We'll help you validate your market opportunity, experiment with messaging and product ideas, and move forward with confidence toward an MVP.
\n\nLearn more and apply at tbot.io/incubator. We look forward to seeing your application in our inbox!
\n\nPeter Voss is the CEO and Chief Scientist of Aigo.ai, a groundbreaking alternative to conventional chatbots and generative models like ChatGPT. Aigo's chatbot is powered by Artificial General Intelligence (AGI), enabling it to think, learn, and reason much like a human being. It boasts short-term and long-term memory, setting it apart in terms of personalized service and context-awareness.
\n\nAlong with host Chad Pytel, Peter talks about how most chatbots and AI systems today are basic. They can answer questions but can't understand or remember the context. Aigo.ai is different because it's built to think and learn more like humans. It can adapt and get better the more you use it. He also highlights the challenges Aigo.ai faces in securing venture capital, given that its innovative approach doesn't align with current investment models heavily focused on generative or deep learning AI. Peter and Chad agree that while generative AI serves certain functions well, the quest for a system that can think, learn, and reason like a human demands a fundamentally different approach.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Peter Voss, CEO and Chief Scientist at Aigo.ai. Peter, thanks so much for joining me.
\n\nPETER: Yes, thank you.
\n\nCHAD: So, tell us a little bit about what Aigo.ai does. You've been working in AI for a long time. And it seems like Aigo is sort of the current culmination of a lot of your 15 years of work, so...
\n\nPETER: Yes, exactly. So, the quick way to describe our current product is a chatbot with a brain, and the important part is the brain. That basically, for the last 15-plus years, I've been working on the core technology for what's called AGI, Artificial General Intelligence, a system that can think, learn, reason similar to the way humans do. Now, we're not yet at human level with this technology. But it's a lot smarter and a lot more usable than traditional chatbots that don't have a brain.
\n\nCHAD: I want to dig into this idea a little bit. I think, like a lot of people, I've used just traditional chatbots, particularly like ChatGPT is the latest. I've built some things on top of it. What is the brain that makes it different? Especially if you've used one, what is using Aigo going to be different?
\n\nPETER: Right. I can give a concrete example of one of our customers then I can talk about the technology. So, one of our big customers is the 1-800-Flowers group of companies, which is Harry & David Popcorn Factory and several others. And wanted to provide a hyper-personalized concierge service for their customers where, you know, the system learns who you buy gifts for, for what occasions, you know, what your relationship is to them, and to basically remember who you are and what you want for each of their 20 million customers.
\n\nAnd they tried different technologies out there, you know, all the top brands and so on, and they just couldn't get it off the ground. And the reason is because they really don't learn. And we now have 89% self-service on the things that we've implemented, which is pretty much unheard of for complex conversations.
\n\nSo, why can we do that? The reason is that our system has deep understanding. So, we have deep pausing, deep understanding, but more importantly, that the system remembers. It has short-term memory. It has long-term memory. And it uses that as context. So, you know, when you call back a second time, it'll remember what your previous call was, you know, what your preferences are, and so on. And it can basically use that information, the short and long-term memory, and reason about it. And that is really a step forward.
\n\nNow, until ChatGPT, which is really very different technology from chatbot technology, I mean, chatbot technology, you're assuming...the kind of thing we're talking about is really augmenting call center, you know, automatic call center calls. There, you need deep integration into the customers' back-end system. You obviously need to know what the latest product availability is, what the customers' outstanding orders are, you know, all sorts of things like, you know, delivery schedules. And we probably have, like, two dozen APIs that connect our system to their various corporate databases and so on.
\n\nNow, traditional chatbots obviously can do that. You hook up the APIs and do things, and it's, you know, it's a lot of work. But traditional chatbot technology really hasn't really changed much in 30 years. You basically have a categorizer; how can I help you? Basically, try to...what is the intent, intent categorizer? And then once your intent has been identified, you basically have a flowchart-type program that, you know, forces you down a flowchart. And that's what makes them so horrible because it doesn't use context. It doesn't have short-term memory.
\n\nCHAD: And I just wanted to clarify the product and where you mentioned call center. So, this isn't just...or only text-based chat. This is voice.
\n\nPETER: Yes. We started off with chat, and we now also have voice, so omnichannel. And the beauty of the system having the brain as well is you can jump from text messaging to a chat on the website to Apple ABC to voice, you know. So, you can basically move from one channel to another seamlessly. You know, so that's against traditional chatbot technology, which is really what everybody is still using.
\n\nNow, ChatGPT, of course, the fact that it's called ChatGPT sort of makes it a bit confusing. And, I mean, it's phenomenal. The technology is absolutely phenomenal in terms of what it can do, you know, write poems and give you ideas. And the amount of information it's amazing. However, it's really not suited for commercial-grade applications because it hallucinates and it doesn't have memory.
\n\nCHAD: You can give it some context, but it's basically faking it. You're providing it information every time you start to use it.
\n\nPETER: Correct. The next time you connect, that memory is gone, you know [crosstalk 05:58]
\n\nCHAD: Unless you build an application that saves it and then feeds it in again.
\n\nPETER: Right. Then you basically run out of context we know very quickly. In fact, I just published a white paper about how we can get to human-level AI. And one of the things we did and go over in the paper is we did a benchmark our technology where we fed the system about 300 or 400 facts, simple facts. You know, it might be my sister likes chocolate or, you know, it could be other things like I don't park my car in the garage or [chuckles], you know. It could be just simple facts, a few hundred of those. And then we asked questions about that.
\n\nNow, ChatGPT scored less than 1% on that because, you know, with an 8K window, it basically just couldn't remember any of this stuff. So, we use --
\n\nCHAD: It also doesn't, in my experience...it's basically answering the way it thinks the answer should sound or look. And so, it doesn't actually understand the facts that you give it.
\n\nPETER: Exactly.
\n\nCHAD: And so, if you feed it a bunch of things which are similar, it gets really confused because it doesn't actually understand the things. It might answer correctly, but it will, in my experience, just as likely answer incorrectly.
\n\nPETER: Yeah. So, it's extremely powerful technology for helping search as well if a company has all the documents and they...but the human always has to be in the loop. It just makes way too many mistakes. But it's very useful if it gives you information 8 out of 10 times and saves you a lot of time. And it's relatively easy to detect the other two times where it gives you wrong information. Now, I know in programming, sometimes, it's given me wrong information and ended up taking longer to debug the misinformation it gave me than it would have taken me. But overall, it's still a very, very powerful tool.
\n\nBut it really isn't suitable for, you know, serious chatbot applications that are integrated into back-end system because these need to be signed off by...legal department needs to be happy that it's not going to get the company into trouble. Marketing department needs to sign off on it and customer experience, you know. And a generative system like that, you really can't rely on what it's going to say, and that's apart from security concerns and, you know, the lack of memory and deep understanding.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. So, you mentioned generative AI, which is sort of one of the underlying pieces of ChatGPT. In your solutions, are you using any generative solutions?
\n\nPETER: No, not at all. Well, I can give one example. You know, what 1-800-Flowers do is they have an option to write a poem for your mother's birthday or Mother's Day or something like it. And for that, we will use ChatGPT, or they use ChatGPT for that because that's what it's good at. But, you know, that's really just any other app that you might call up to do something for you, you know, like calling up FedEx to find out where your goods are.
\n\nApart from that, our technology...it's a good question you ask because, you know, statistical systems and generative AI now have really dominated the AI scene for the last about 12 years, really sort of since DeepMind started. Because it's been incredibly successful to take masses amounts of data and masses amounts of computing power and, you know, number crunch them and then be able to categorize and identify images and, you know, do all sorts of magical things.
\n\nBut, the approach we use is cognitive AI as opposed to generative. It's a relatively unknown approach, but that's what we've been working on for 15 years. And it starts with the question of what does intelligence require to build a system so that it doesn't use masses amounts of data? It's not the quantity of data that counts. It's the quality of data.
\n\nAnd it's important that it can learn incrementally as you go along like humans do and that it can validate what it learns. It can reason about, you know, new information. Does this make sense? Do I need to ask a follow-up question? You know, that kind of thing. So, it's cognitive AI. That's the approach we're using.
\n\nCHAD: And, obviously, you have a product, and you've productized it. But you said, you know, we've been working on this, or you've been working on this model for a long time. How has it progressed?
\n\nPETER: Yes, we are now on, depending on how you count, but on the third major version of it that we've started. And really, the progress has been determined by resources really than any technology. You know, it's not that we sort of have a big R&D requirement. It's really more development. But we are a relatively small company. And because we're using such different technology, it's actually been pretty hard to raise VC money. You know, they look at it and, you know, ask you, "What's your training data? How big is your model?" You know, and that kind of thing.
\n\nCHAD: Oh, so the questions investors or people know to ask aren't relevant.
\n\nPETER: Correct. And, you know, they bring in the AI experts, and then they say, "Well, what kind of deep learning, machine learning, or generative, or what transformer model are using?" And we say, "Well, we don't." And typically, that's kind of, "Oh okay, well, then it can't possibly work, you know, we don't understand it."
\n\nSo, we just recently launched. You know, with all the excitement of generative AI now recently, with so much money flowing into it, we actually launched a major development effort. Now we want to hire an additional a hundred people to basically crank up the IQ. So, over the years, you know, we're working on two aspects of it: one is to continually crank up the IQ of the system, that it can understand more and more complex situations; it can reason better and be able to handle bigger amounts of data. So, that's sort of the technical part that we've been working on.
\n\nBut then the other side, of course, running a business, a lot of our effort over the last 15 years has gone into making it industrial strength, you know, security, scalability, robustness of the system. Our current technology, our first version, was actually a SaaS model that we deployed behind a customer's firewall.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I noticed that you're targeting more enterprise deployments.
\n\nPETER: Yeah, that's at the moment because, financially, it makes more sense for us to kind of get off the ground to work with, you know, larger companies where we supply the technology, and it's deployed usually in the cloud but in their own cloud behind their firewall. So, they're very happy with that. You know, they have complete control over their data and reliability, and so on. But we provide the technology and then just licensing it.
\n\nCHAD: Now, a lot of people are familiar with generative AI, you know, it runs on GPUs and that kind of thing. Does the hardware profile for where you're hosting it look the same as that, or is it different?
\n\nPETER: No, no, no, it requires much less horsepower. So, I mean, we can run an agent on a five-year-old laptop, you know, and it doesn't...instead of it costing $100 million to train the model, it's like pennies [laughter] to train the model. I mean, we train it during our regression testing, and that we train it several times a day.
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\n\nCHAD: So, you mentioned ramping up the IQ is a goal of yours. With a cognitive model, does that mean just teaching it more things? What does it entail?
\n\nPETER: Yes, there's a little bit of tension between commercial requirements and what you ultimately want for intelligence because a truly intelligent system, you want it to be very autonomous and adaptive and have a wide range of knowledge. Now, for current commercial applications we're doing, you actually don't want the system to learn things by itself or to make up stuff, you know, you want it to be predictable. So, they develop and to ultimately get to full human-level or AGI capability requires a system to be more adaptive–be able to learn things more.
\n\nSo, the one big change we are making to the system right now is natural language understanding or English understanding. And our current commercial version was actually developed through our—we call them AI psychologists, our linguists, and cognitive psychologists—by basically teaching it the rules of English grammar. And we've always known that that's suboptimal. So, with the current version, we are now actually teaching it English from the ground up the way a child might learn a language, so the language itself. So, it can learn any language.
\n\nSo, for commercial applications, that wasn't really a need. But to ultimately get to human level, it needs to be more adaptive, more autonomous, and have a wider range of knowledge than the commercial version. That's basically where our focus is. And, you know, we know what needs to be done, but, you know, it's quite a bit of work. That's why we need to hire about 100 people to deal with all of the different training things. It's largely training the system, you know, but there are also some architectural improvements we need to make on performance and the way the system reasons.
\n\nCHAD: Well, you used the term Artificial General Intelligence. I understand you're one of the people who coined that term [chuckles] or the person.
\n\nPETER: Yes. In 2002, I got together with two other people who felt that the time was ripe to get back to the original dream of AI, you know, from 60 years ago, to build thinking machines basically. So, we decided to write a book on the topic to put our ideas out there. And we were looking for a title for the book, and three of us—myself, Ben Goertzel, and Shane Legg, who's actually one of the founders of DeepMind; he was working for me at the time. And we were brainstorming it, and that's what we came up with was AGI, Artificial General Intelligence.
\n\nCHAD: So, for people who aren't familiar, it's what you were sort of alluding to. You're basically trying to replicate the human brain, the way humans learn, right? That's the basic idea is --
\n\nPETER: Yeah, the human cognition really, yeah, human mind, human cognition. That's exactly right. I mean, we want an AI that can think, learn, and reason the way humans do, you know, that it can hit the box and learn a new topic, you know, you can have any kind of conversation. And we really believe we have the technology to do that.
\n\nWe've built quite a number of different prototypes that already show this kind of capability where it can, you know, read Wikipedia, integrate that with existing knowledge, and then have a conversation about it. And if it's not sure about something, it'll ask for clarification and things like that. We really just need to scale it up. And, of course, it's a huge deal for us to eventually get to human-level AI.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. How much sort of studying of the brain or cognition do you do in your work, where, you know, sort of going back and saying, "Okay, we want to tackle this thing"? Do you do research into cognition?
\n\nPETER: Yeah, that's a very interesting question. It really gets to the heart of why I think we haven't made more progress in developing AGI. In fact, another white paper I published recently is "Why Don't We Have AGI Yet?" And, you know, one of the big problems is that statistical AI has been so incredibly successful over the last decade or so that it sucked all of the oxygen out of the air.
\n\nBut to your question, before I started on this project, I actually took off five years to study intelligence because, to me, that's really what cognitive AI approach is all about is you start off by saying, what is intelligence? What does it require? And I studied it from the perspective of philosophy, epistemology, theory of knowledge. You know, what's reality? How do we know anything?
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nPETER: How can we be sure? You know, really those most fundamental questions. Then how do children learn? What do IQ tests measure? How does our intelligence differ to animal intelligence? What is that magic difference between, you know, evolution? Suddenly, we have this high-level cognition. And the short answer of that is being able to form abstract concepts or concept formation is sort of key, and to have metacognition, to be able to think about your own thinking.
\n\nSo, those are kind of the things I discovered during the five years of study. Obviously, I also looked at what had already been done in the field of AI, as in good old-fashioned AI, and neural networks, and so on. So, this is what brought me together. So, absolutely, as a starting point to say, what is intelligence? Or what are the aspects of intelligence that are really important and core?
\n\nNow, as far as studying the brain is concerned, I certainly looked at that, but I pretty quickly decided that that wasn't that relevant. It's, you know, you certainly get some ideas. I mean, neural networks, ours is kind of a neural network or knowledge graph, so there's some similarity with that. But the analogy one often gives, which I think is not bad, is, you know, we've had flying machines for 100 years. We are still nowhere near reverse engineering a bird.
\n\nCHAD: Right.
\n\nPETER: So, you know, evolution and biology are just very different from designing things and using the materials that we need to use in computers. So, definitely, understanding intelligence, I think, is key to being able to build it.
\n\nCHAD: Well, in some ways, that is part of the reason why statistical AI has gotten so much attention with that sort of airplane analogy because it's like, maybe we need to not try to replicate human cognition [chuckles]. Maybe we need to just embrace what computers are good at and try to find a different way.
\n\nPETER: Right, right. But that argument really falls down when you say you are ignoring intelligence, you know, or you're ignoring the kind of intelligence. And we can see how ridiculous the sort of the current...well, I mean, first of all, let me say Sam Altman, and everybody says...well, they say two things: one, we have no idea how these things work, which is not a good thing if you're [chuckles] trying to build something and improve it. And the second thing they say...Demis Hassabis and, you know, everybody says it, "This is not going to get us to human-level AI, to human-level intelligence."
\n\nThey realize that this is the wrong approach. But they also haven't come up with what the right approach is because they are stuck within the statistical big data approach, you know, we need another 100 billion dollars to build even bigger computers with bigger models, you know, but that's really --
\n\nCHAD: Right. It might be creating a tool, which has some uses, but it is not actual; I mean, it's not really even actual artificial intelligence --
\n\nPETER: Correct. And, I mean, you can sort of see this very easily if...imagine you hired a personal assistant for yourself, a human. And, you know, they come to you, and they know how to use Excel and do QuickBooks or whatever, and a lot of things, so great. They start working with you.
\n\nBut, you know, every now and again, they say something that's completely wrong with full confidence, so that's a problem. Then the second thing is you tell them, "Well, we've just introduced a new product. We shut down this branch here. And, you know, I've got a new partner in the business and a new board member." And the next day, they come in, and they remember nothing of that, you know, [chuckles] that's not very intelligent.
\n\nCHAD: Right. No, no, it's not. It's possible that there's a way for these two things to use each other, like generating intelligent-sounding, understanding what someone is saying and finding like things to it, and being able to generate meaningful, intelligent language might be useful in a cognitive model.
\n\nPETER: We obviously thought long and hard about this, especially when, you know, generative AI became so powerful. I mean, it does some amazing things. So, can we combine the technology? And the answer is quite simply no. As I mentioned earlier, we can use generative AI kind of as an API or as a tool or something. You know, so if our system needs to write a poem or something, then yes, you know, these systems can do a good job of it.
\n\nBut the reason you can't really just combine them and kind of build a Frankensteinian kind of [laughs] thing is you really need to have context that you currently have fully integrated. So you can't have two brains, you know, the one brain, which is a read-only brain, and then our brain, our cognitive brain, which basically constantly adapts and uses the context of what it's heard using short-term memory, long-term memory, reasoning, and so on.
\n\nSo, all of those mental mechanisms of deep understanding of context, short-term and long-term memory, reasoning, language generation–they all have to be tightly integrated and work together. And that's basically the approach that we have. Now, like a human to...if you write, you know, "Generate an essay," and you want to have it come up with maybe some ideas, changing the style, for example, you know, it would make sense for our system to use a generative AI system like a tool because humans are good tool users. You know, I wouldn't expect our system to be the world chess champion or Go champion. It can use a chess-playing AI or a Go-playing AI to do that job.
\n\nCHAD: That's really cool. You mentioned the short-term, long-term memory. If I am using or working on a deployment for Aigo, is that something that I specify, like, oh, this thing where we've collected goes in short term versus long term, or does the system actually do that automatically?
\n\nPETER: That's the beauty of the system that: it automatically has short and long-term memory. So, really, the only thing that needs to be sort of externally specified is things you don't want to keep in long-term memory, you know, that for some reason, security reasons, or a company gives you a password or whatever. So, then, they need to be tagged.
\n\nSo, we have, like, an ontology that describes all of the different kinds of knowledge that you have. And in the ontology, you can tag certain branches of the ontology or certain nodes in the ontology to say, this should not be remembered, or this should be encrypted or, you know, whatever. But by default, everything that comes into short-term memory is remembered. So, you know, a computer can have photographic memory.
\n\nCHAD: You know, that is part of why...someone critical of what they've heard might say, "Well, you're just replicating a human brain. How is this going to be better?" And I think that that's where you're just...what you said, like, when we do artificial general intelligence with computers, they all have photographic memory.
\n\nPETER: Right. Well, in my presentations, when I give talks on this, I have the one slide that actually talks about how AI is superior to humans in as far as getting work done in cognition, and there's actually quite a number of things. So, let me first kind of give one example here. So, imagine you train up one AI to be a PhD-level cancer researcher, you know, it goes through whatever training, and reading, and coaching, and so on.
\n\nSo, you now have this PhD-level cancer researcher. You now make a million copies of that, and you have a million PhD-level cancer researchers chipping away at the problem. Now, I'm sure we would make a lot more progress, and you can now replicate that idea, that same thinking, you know, in energy, pollution, poverty, whatever, I mean, any disease, that kind of approach. So, I mean, that already is one major difference that you make copies of an AI, which you can't of humans.
\n\nBut there are other things. First of all, they are significantly less expensive than humans. Humans are very expensive. So much lower cost. They work 24/7 without breaks, without getting tired. I don't know the best human on how many hours they can concentrate without needing a break, maybe a few hours a day, or six, maybe four hours a day. So, 24/7.
\n\nThen, they can communicate with each other much better than humans do because they could share information sort of by transferring blocks of data across from one to the other without the ego getting in the way. I mean, you take humans, not very good at sharing information and discoveries. Then they don't have certain distractions that we have like romantic things and kids in schools and, you know.
\n\nCHAD: Although if you actually do get a full [laughs] AGI, then it might start to have those things [laughs].
\n\nPETER: Well, yeah, that's a whole nother topic. But our AIs, we basically build them not to want to have children [laughs] so, you know. And then, of course, things we spoke about, photographic memory. It has instantaneous access to all the information in the world, all the databases, you know, much better than we have, like, if we had a direct connection to the internet and brain, you know, but at a much higher bandwidth than we could ever achieve with our wetware.
\n\nAnd then, lastly, they are much better at reasoning than humans are. I mean, our ability to reason is what I call an evolutionary afterthought. We are not actually that good at logical thinking, and AIs can be, you know.
\n\nCHAD: We like to think we are, though.
\n\nPETER: [chuckles] Well, you know, compared to animals, yes, definitely. We are significantly better. But realistically, humans are not that good at rational, logical thinking.
\n\nCHAD: You know, I read something that a lot of decisions are made at a different level than the logical part. And then, the logical part justifies the decision.
\n\nPETER: Yeah, absolutely. And, in fact, this is why smart people are actually worse at that because they're really good at rationalizations. You know, they can rationalize their weird beliefs and/or their weird behavior or something. That's true.
\n\nCHAD: You mentioned that your primary customers are enterprises. Who makes up your ideal customer? And if someone was listening who matched that profile and wanted to get in touch with you, what would they look like?
\n\nPETER: The simplest and most obvious way is if they have call centers of 100 people or more—hundreds, or thousands, tens of thousands even. But the economics from about 100 people in the call center, where we might be able to save them 50% of that, you know, depending on the kind of business.
\n\nCHAD: And are your solutions typically employed before the actual people, and then they fall back to people in certain circumstances?
\n\nPETER: Correct. That's exactly right. And, you know, the advantage there is, whatever Aigo already gathers, we then summarize it and pop that to the human operator so that, you know, that the customer --
\n\nCHAD: That's great because that's super annoying.
\n\nPETER: It is.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nPETER: It is super annoying and --
\n\nCHAD: When you finally get to a person, and it's like, I just spent five minutes providing all this information that you apparently don't have.
\n\nPETER: Right. Yeah, no, absolutely, that's kind of one of the key things that the AI has that information. It can summarize it and provide it to the live operator. So that would be, you know, the sort of the most obvious use case.
\n\nBut we also have use cases on the go with student assistant, for example, where it's sort of more on an individual basis. You know, imagine your kid just starts at university. It's just overwhelming. It can have a personal personal assistant, you know, that knows all about you in particular. But then also knows about the university, knows its way around, where you get your books, your meals, and, you know, different societies and curriculum and so on. Or diabetes coach, you know, where it can help people with diabetes manage their meals and activities, where it can learn whether you love broccoli, or you're vegetarian, or whatever, and help guide you through that. Internal help desks are another application, of course.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. I was going to say even the same thing as at a university when people join a big company, you know, there's an onboarding process.
\n\nPETER: Exactly. Yeah.
\n\nCHAD: And there could be things that you're not aware of or don't know where to find.
\n\nPETER: Internal HR and IT, absolutely, as you say, on onboarding. Those are other applications where our technology is well-suited.
\n\nAnd one other category is what we call a co-pilot. So, think of it as Clippy on steroids, you know, where basically you have complex software like, you know, SAP, or Salesforce, or something like that. And you can basically just have Aigo as a front end to it, and you can just talk to it. And it will know where to navigate, what to get, and basically do things, complex things in the software.
\n\nAnd software vendors like that idea because people utilize more features of the software than they would otherwise, you know. It can accelerate your learning curve and make it much easier to use the product. So, you know, really, the technology that we have is industry and application-agnostic to a large extent. We're just currently not yet at human level.
\n\nCHAD: Right. I hope you get there eventually. It'll be certainly exciting when you do.
\n\nPETER: Yes. Well, we do expect to get there. We just, you know, as I said, we've just launched a project now to raise the additional money we need to hire the people that we need. And we actually believe we are only a few years away from full human-level intelligence or AGI.
\n\nCHAD: Wow, that's exciting. So, if the solution that you currently have and people want to go along for the journey with you, how can they get in touch with Aigo?
\n\nPETER: They could contact me directly: peter@aigo.ai. I'm also active on Twitter, LinkedIn.
\n\nCHAD: Cool. We'll include all of those links in the show notes, which people can find at giantrobots.fm.
\n\nIf you have questions for me, email me at hosts@giantrobots.fm. Find me on Mastodon @cpytel@thoughtbot.social.
\n\nYou can find a complete transcript for this episode as well at giantrobots.fm.
\n\nPeter, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it and all of the wisdom that you've shared with us today.
\n\nPETER: Well, thank you. They were good questions. Thank you.
\n\nCHAD: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening, and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
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\n\nCo-host Will Larry interviews Stephen Hanson, the Director of Mobile Development at thoughtbot. The two explore the complexities of mobile app development, focusing on the advantages and disadvantages of React Native and Flutter.
\n\nStephen, who initially started as a full-stack web developer specializing in Enterprise Java, discusses React Native's cost-effectiveness and the convenience of having a unified codebase for iOS and Android platforms. However, he notes that Flutter might be a more suitable choice for high-performance needs. Both hosts emphasize the nuances of the mobile ecosystem, covering topics like in-app purchases, push notifications, and the strict guidelines set by app stores like Apple's. They agree that a comprehensive understanding of these aspects is crucial for an entire development team, including designers and project managers.
\n\nAdditionally, Stephen shares that the driving force behind his career is the opportunity to create apps that enhance people's lives. Stephen wraps up the discussion by detailing thoughtbot's goals of improving mobile development practices within the company and the broader developer community.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. And with me today is Stephen Hanson, Director of Mobile Development here at thoughtbot. Stephen, thank you for joining me.
\n\nSTEPHEN: Hi, Will. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. I'm excited to talk about mobile development. But before we get started, tell us a little bit about who Stephen Hanson is: your personal life.
\n\nSTEPHEN: You know this because we often talk about our families when we get together. But I have two young kids, two and four years old. When you say personal life to anybody who has young kids, that's what we're talking about.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nWILL: Yes.
\n\nSTEPHEN: So, they're keeping me busy but in the best way.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, definitely. And I totally understand that. So, I know we talk about this often, but you like to woodwork. You like to work with your hands like most of us in tech. Like, we think so much with our head and mental that we try to find something to do physically, and yours is woodworking. Tell me a little bit about that.
\n\nSTEPHEN: Yeah. I think it's exactly what you said. I think working on a computer all day, you know, many years ago, I was like, what's something I can do with my hands, right? Something a little more physical. So yeah, fine woodworking has been a hobby of mine for quite a few years. And we were even chatting the other day about, you know, I'm trying to take time during the day to sneak out to the garage for 15 minutes, you know, during my lunch break or whatever to just get that mental reset and just work on something.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. I know that you built your office that you work out of. I've been wanting to ask you, one, how did you do it? Two, how did you have the confidence to do it [laughter] to make sure that it was going to...how can I say this? I would be afraid that would it still be standing [laughter] after a little bit? [laughs]
\n\nSTEPHEN: Yeah, to be honest, that was definitely a fear. Yeah, I built my office in 2020, you know, COVID hit. All of a sudden, I was working fully remote. And we had another kid on the way. You know, we didn't have space in the house. So, I was like, what am I going to do? [laughs] I was already doing woodworking, but I didn't have any construction or carpentry experience.
\n\nSo, yeah, I definitely had the confidence issue. And I think, you know, I was just like, I don't know, let's just give it a try. [laughter] That's really all I can say. I didn't have the skills yet. But I watched a lot of YouTube and read a lot of [laughs] forums or, you know, just found info wherever I could, so...[laughs]
\n\nWILL: Yep. And it's still standing today, correct? [laughs]
\n\nSTEPHEN: Correct. Yeah. [laughs] No, I'm just sitting in, like, a pile of rubble right now.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nWILL: That's awesome, yeah. It's kind of like development sometimes for me. Like, you just got to take that leap sometimes, so...
\n\nSTEPHEN: You do, right? It's like, you know, fake it till you make it.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nWILL: Yep. That's awesome. Awesome. Awesome. So, tell us a little bit about how did you get started in development in general? And then, how did you get started in React Native?
\n\nSTEPHEN: Yeah. So, I started out as a full-stack web developer. So, I didn't initially set out and say, "I'm going to build mobile apps," right? And I started out in 2011. I was working in Enterprise Java. I worked for American Airlines for a couple of years, and then I did enterprise consulting. I eventually made my way to, like, Rails and front-end development. And around 2016, 2017, I was freelancing. And eventually, clients started asking me to build mobile apps. [chuckles]
\n\nWILL: [inaudible 04:16]
\n\nSTEPHEN: And I didn't know how to build mobile apps. So, I did what any web developer would do who doesn't build apps, and I used web technology. So, those first couple of apps that I built were hybrid apps. I used Ionic. And those are, you know, web apps that you package in a Native Wrapper. So, developing these apps, I literally developed them in a browser, right? And they're web apps. [laughs] And that was my first experience building apps.
\n\nEven if they were web-based, I still had to work with the native app stores and learn, you know, app review guidelines and implement some native functionality, even though it was through, like, the Ionic wrappers. You know, people kind of trash on hybrid apps, and sometimes for good reason. But that wasn't a bad first experience for me or outcome, honestly. The clients were happy. They had apps in the app stores that were working for a pretty reasonable development cost. So yeah, that was my first experience in mobile. The end result isn't something I'd be necessarily proud of today. [laughs]
\n\nWILL: I think that's all devs. [laughs]
\n\nSTEPHEN: Yeah, you know, [laughter] yeah, I --
\n\nWILL: Looking back at their work, yeah. [laughs]
\n\nSTEPHEN: I was talking about that. I could look back to something I built a month ago. [laughs]
\n\nWILL: Yes.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nSTEPHEN: You don't have to go back far.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nWILL: Yeah, so true [laughs]. You started working with the client when you were freelancing. So, how did you go from the hybrid web apps to actually saying, okay, I want to change, and I want to go all in on React Native?
\n\nSTEPHEN: React Native came out around that same time I was building those hybrid apps. So, the hybrid apps were 2016, 2017. React Native came out in 2015. So it was out, but it was still pretty new. And I was really interested in React Native right from the beginning, but I was also a little intimidated by it [chuckles].
\n\nSo, when those first clients came to me for mobile apps, I didn't feel confident enough to say, "Yes, I can build you a React Native app." But a year or two later, I was working for another client on their Rails app. And I was building an API for their new React Native app. You know, I was really interested in React Native. So I said, "Hey, [chuckles] why don't I help out on the app side, too?" And they were like, "Sure, that sounds great." So that was kind of where I got my foot in the door with React Native.
\n\nAnd then more opportunities like that just kept popping up over the next year. So, I got to work on a couple of other React Native apps. And like we talked about, I just started calling myself a React Native developer [laughs]. The rest is history.
\n\nWILL: Yep. So true. We'll touch more on that later. But what would you say to a client who is trying to figure out if they should build native versus React Native?
\n\nSTEPHEN: There's a few things to consider when making that decision. But I think, usually, what I've seen is it comes down to budget and user experience. The bottom line is React Native is going to be a lot cheaper. You're basically building one app instead of two, right? Most of your code in a React Native app is going to be in JavaScript, and you can reuse all of that code across Android and iOS.
\n\nIf you're building a native app, you're just building two completely separate apps. So, it's just going to be cheaper to build that React Native app, and a lot of times, that's what it comes down to. For most companies, it can be really hard to justify that extra cost of building a completely native app for each platform.
\n\nBut then the question is when we talk about how can you justify the cost? Well, what would justify the cost, right? [laughs] I think probably the biggest trade-off when you build a React Native app versus a purely native app is there is a little bit of a performance penalty by building in React Native versus native.
\n\nSo, I think apps that will need to have a very flashy cutting-edge experience with lots of user-driven animation and effects, you know, when you get into that domain, I think that's where we see pure native starting to make more sense. But most apps and users would never feel that performance penalty of React Native. So, for most apps, that's not really something that enters into the equation.
\n\nWILL: I want to dig into something you said. You were talking about if you do go native, you usually have to build an iOS and an Android separately. But with React Native, you could do it together. So, for someone who's maybe never done either one of them, can you kind of dig into, like, what does that look like? So, when you say I have to build an iOS and an Android portion versus I can do one codebase for React Native, can you walk us through kind of what that looks like, just a sample feature?
\n\nSTEPHEN: When I say React Native is a single codebase and, you know, native apps, you're building two apps, the way React Native works is you're basically building a React app. So, all of your business logic is going to be in React. And when your React code renders some UI, that gets translated into native UI. But your business logic is still going to be living in that JavaScript React app. So, one, when I say performance penalty, that's what I'm talking about is: there's a little bit of a performance penalty communicating back and forth between your JavaScript thread and the native system thread.
\n\nBut when we talk about one codebase versus two, that's what a React Native app looks like. You basically are working on a React app. It's one codebase with one set of business logic. And when you say, "Show a modal on the screen," that gets translated into a native Android modal or a native iOS modal, but in your code, you're just saying, "Show a modal." [laughs] So, you're just writing that one time. So yeah, a React Native project is just one codebase.
\n\nNow, one thing that we haven't really touched on is in a React Native app, you do have the ability to drop down into native code. So, you have access to the native Android project and the native iOS project in your React Native app. So, you can write completely native code if you want to.
\n\nBut the appeal of React Native is you don't have to, you know, unless you get into one of those situations where you need to do something native that isn't supported out of the box with React Native or by an existing third-party library, or you want to have a very performant, very interactive part of your app. Maybe there's a reason you want to do that in native. You know, you do have that option in a React Native app of dropping down into that native code level.
\n\nBut to contrast that with a purely native project, you will have two completely separate codebases, one for Android and one for iOS. You'll have a development team for Android and a development team for iOS, you know, typically with different skill sets. The Android project will be Java, Kotlin. And your iOS project is swift. So, just in every sense, you really have two different projects when you're working on a purely native app.
\n\nWILL: Okay, yeah, that makes sense. So like, for React Native, that show modal is just however many lines to show that one modal, and it does it for iOS and Android. But when you talk about native, you're saying that; however, iOS says to show that modal, you have to do it that way. But then Android, you also have to do it the Android way. And one developer, unless they know both of them, may not be able to handle both for those cases, correct?
\n\nSTEPHEN: Yeah, exactly. React Native abstracts away those underlying platforms. So, you really just need to know React Native for most cases. Though, there's definitely a benefit of knowing the underlying platforms.
\n\nWILL: Definitely. Especially, like you touched on if you wanted to go into that native portion to add in a feature. You know, for example, I know we both worked on a project where we had a scanning app. And we had to tap into that native portion and React Native in order to get the scanning app to work, correct?
\n\nSTEPHEN: Yeah, that's right. We had to support some barcode scanning devices and hook into those barcode scanning frameworks that were proprietary [chuckles] to those devices. So yeah, we had to build native modules for Android and iOS to support those.
\n\nWILL: Gotcha. Okay. I want to touch back on something you said earlier about the flashy experiences. You said sometimes you may not see it or whatever, but sometimes, if you want that flashy experience, it's better to go the native route. Can you explain that a little bit more?
\n\nSTEPHEN: So yeah, it's kind of what I was touching on a second ago. You know, in a React Native app, you have the JavaScript thread that is always running and coordinating UI changes with business logic. So, you've got your business logic in JavaScript. You've got the UI in native. And those need to be coordinated to interact. So, that's kind of where that performance penalty can happen.
\n\nYou know, again, most apps and users would never feel this penalty. I've never been, like, using my phone and been like, oh, this is a React Native app; I can feel it, you know. [laughs] It's not something that typically enters the picture for most apps that we work on. But there are certain types of apps that might be more important, you know, highly interactive games or things that just need to have that extra flashiness and interactive flashiness specifically, where it could make sense to build that natively.
\n\nAnother interesting thing in the React Native space is React Native recently re-architected their rendering engine to be written in C++ and be more efficient. So, this performance overhead might be a little bit less of a trade-off. They've re-architected the way that React Native JavaScript talks to the native layer, which might make this even less of an issue going forward.
\n\nWILL: I looked it up for the podcast. But do you know some of the companies that we probably are familiar with, like they built apps on React Native? Can you name a couple?
\n\nSTEPHEN: Yeah, I was recently looking at this, too. And, you know, the big one is Facebook, right? Facebook built React Native. So, they're the sponsor of that project. So, Facebook and Facebook Messenger, I believe those apps are built with React Native. I don't know if the entire apps are or not [chuckles]. Do you know by chance? [laughs]
\n\nWILL: React Native on their website says, "Hey, we're going to showcase these apps that they're built in React Native." So, I'm guessing a huge portion of it was built in React Native, so...
\n\nSTEPHEN: Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah, you're right. They're showcasing it there. So yeah, you know, other ones, you know, lots of brands, Shopify, looks like PlayStation. I'm looking at the list now on the React Native website: Pinterest, Flipkart, Discord, Walmart, Tesla, Coinbase, Mercari. Yeah, I mean, it's just a lot of big-name apps built in React Native, including quite a few that we've [laughs] that we've built.
\n\n[laughter]
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\n\nWILL: If I'm absolutely sold on getting that flashy experience, is native the only route to go?
\n\nSTEPHEN: I think until pretty recently, that would have been your option [laughs]. But Flutter has been picking up a little bit of momentum. So, Flutter is developed by Google. And it's kind of a challenger in that React Native space. It kind of has the same write once, run anywhere, you know, philosophy as React Native. You have one codebase. But they tout kind of being a more performant option than React Native. So, it compiles down to native ARM or Intel code, which can give better performance without, you know, not needing that JavaScript bridge kind of handling that communication between the UI and the business logic.
\n\nWILL: So, when would you use Flutter versus React Native?
\n\nSTEPHEN: I kind of keep going back to, like, you know, we talk about the performance overhead of a React Native app. I don't think that's even on the map for the vast majority of apps. Like, this isn't a performance penalty that you can typically feel.
\n\nSo, looking at Flutter versus React Native, React Native has several advantages. I think the biggest one is it's React. So, every team has React developers already on the team, pretty much nowadays. So, you know, if you've got an organization that says, "Oh, we need to build a mobile app," they probably already have a team of React developers somewhere working on their web app [laughs]. So, there's a big benefit of kind of centralizing their team around that technology. You know, you can have a little bit of cross-pollination between web and mobile, which can be really nice.
\n\nI think, similarly, it's a lot easier to find and hire React or React Native developers right now than it is to find and hire Flutter developers. So, Flutter is written in Dart, and it has its own front-end framework. So, this isn't necessarily a technology that you're going to have on your existing team. Like, I've never worked with Dart, personally. It's not nearly as common as React developers. You know, that, to me, is going to be a big downside. You know, the talent pool is a lot smaller for Flutter/Dart developers.
\n\nAlso, the ecosystem with Flutter being newer, it's not as established. It doesn't have as large of an ecosystem as React Native. So, for those reasons, I think React Native is still, at least for us, like, it's usually where we would steer a client over Flutter, unless they're in that category of, like, they're really going for something, you know, groundbreaking. And, you know, the choice is either, you know, they've ruled out React Native. They need to get that native performance, and maybe they could achieve that with Flutter, and maybe Flutter would be a good option then.
\n\nWILL: Okay. You mentioned that—and I agree with you—like, you probably have some React devs on your team somewhere. Most companies does. So, say if I am bought in, I'm going all in on React Native, and I have React web developers on my team. Is that an easy transition for those developers, or what does that transition look like?
\n\nSTEPHEN: Yeah, this is something...I think you and I have talked about this a lot because we both transitioned from React Web to React Native. And, you know, it wasn't all that easy, right? [laughs]
\n\nWILL: No, it was not [laughter] at all.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nSTEPHEN: So yeah, you know, it is a fallacy to say, "Hey, we've got a React team, you know, let's just start tomorrow on building an app, and it'll be smooth sailing. And, you know, no one needs to learn anything, and we'll be good to go," right? [laughs] So, you know, what I always say is a React web developer can successfully work on a React Native app. But I don't think they have the skills yet to lead that initiative because there's just so much to the mobile ecosystem that needs to be learned.
\n\nAnd really, you know, my first couple of React Native apps, I wasn't the lead developer. There was somebody on those projects who really knew that space better than I did. And that was really helpful for me to have. How about you? What about your first, like, React Native project? What did that look like?
\n\nWILL: It was at another company, and the exact words paraphrasing was, "You know React, so you can easily work on React Native." And so, I got on the project. And I really struggled, to be honest with you, because there's a lot of things that I didn't know: in-app purchases, push notifications, how to deal with Apple store, Android store, deploying to those stores. Like all of those things, navigation is totally different than React navigations and routes. It was a lot. It was a lot more than they led on to what it was.
\n\nEventually, I caught on. It took me a while. I needed to work with some more senior React Native developers, and I was able to really pick it up. But yeah, it was tough. I'll be honest: I struggled for a while because I went in feeling like I should have known all those things because that's the way it was conveyed to me. Now that I look back on it I was like, there's no way I could have known those things. It's just a different language. So, I had to get in there and learn it.
\n\nAnd I even...I'm trying to think I've learned a couple of new languages. But it's almost like learning a new language just with, you know, the, like I mentioned, the in-app purchases, push notifications. It's just totally different.
\n\nSTEPHEN: Yeah, that's been my experience also. I think the challenges weren't, like, coding [laughs] because, you know, building a React Native app is coding in React. The challenges that I faced were, like you said, it's just the mobile ecosystem and learning all the intricacies, the functionality that users have come to expect in mobile apps, you know, like password manager, integration, and background execution modes, and deep linking strategies, all that kind of stuff.
\n\nYou know, if you don't know what questions to ask or what features to be thinking of, it's just really hard. And [laughs] I think it's more than just the developer needing to know that too. I think anytime it comes, you know, down to building an app, the whole team needs to have that mobile background. It's just a completely different platform than building for the web, right? So like, product owners, project managers, designers, developers all need that context so we can be prioritizing the right features and building a UI that matches the patterns that people have come to expect in a mobile app. And then, of course, developing those apps using the, you know, the proper native modules.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, definitely. And I [chuckles]...you mentioned that it's mostly on, like, the mobile side. I don't know the best way to say that. But, like, I can tell you, when I first got onto the React Native project, there were numerous features that I could implement, and to a certain point to where I had to go that mobile.
\n\nSo, like, I was like, oh yeah, I can learn these new components that's in React Native. Okay, I got it to work. It's finished. You know, my PM would be like, "Well, it's not completely finished because you have to deploy it." And I was like, oh, I have no idea what I'm doing now. Like, I just know [laughs]...I know up to this point.
\n\nSTEPHEN: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: But anything over that, I'm like, yeah, I have no idea.
\n\nSTEPHEN: Especially with consulting, right? With consulting, you need even more expertise, right? The clients are counting on you to build their app. And that's where, you know, having that deep, deep familiarity where you can say to a client, "This is how we're going to do the deployment process, you know, and I need, you know, X, Y, and Z to help set it up. And here are the deliverables, and here's when we'll have it," that kind of thing. Like, it really takes it up a whole nother notch what you need to know.
\n\nWILL: Definitely, yeah. Because I think compared to mobile, I feel like web development can almost be like the Wild Wild West. And what I mean by that is, like, there's no rules for you to push out a website in web. Like, you know, you build it. You push it out. It can be out there, you know. Whoever is hosting it, unless you go against their rules, maybe, but their rules are very relaxed and stuff like that.
\n\nMobile, there's a totally different set of rules. Because, like, I was laughing not too long ago. There was rumors that Elon Musk was going to remove the blocking feature on Twitter [chuckles]. And it was funny because all the mobile devs they came out. And if you're a mobile dev, you know this. Apple is very strict.
\n\nSTEPHEN: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: If this is a social media app that you're building, you have to have that blocking feature, which I agree it needs to be there. But it's funny, like, all the mobile devs was like, yeah, that's not going to work. Good luck [chuckles]. Good luck being an app again.
\n\nSTEPHEN: Yeah, [laughs] good luck.
\n\nWILL: Like, they're going to kick it off. And yeah, they're very big on kicking it off if it doesn't follow those rules and things like that. So yeah, for React Native, you have to learn those rules, or, like I said, they won't approve it. They won't push it out to their store.
\n\nSTEPHEN: Yep, exactly. Yeah. I feel like the new one at every client project; I have to say, "We have to offer a way to delete your account in the app," because [laughs] that's a new one that launched last year, and I think has just started being enforced more recently. Like, all those little gotcha rules, you know, like, if you don't know about that, then you're going to go to submit your app to the stores, and you're going to get rejected every single time. [laughs].
\n\nWILL: And they're not shy about rejecting you [laughs].
\n\nSTEPHEN: Yeah. But I would say, like, a lot of the rules, I'm like, yes, this is amazing that we have these rules, you know. It does help keep the community safer like things like blocking. But then there's the other rules of, like, Apple's like, hey, you've got to use our payment system and pay us 30% of every sale.
\n\nWILL: Yes [laughs].
\n\nSTEPHEN: I was, like, you know, there's some evil stuff happening there, too.
\n\nWILL: I totally agree. And we ran into that issue. We had an app that used Stripe. And we actually had to remove it in order to use in-app purchases because...I forgot the rules around it, but it was essentially for digital content. I think it's what it was. And so, we had to use Apple's in-app purchases. So yeah, I totally agree with you on that.
\n\nSTEPHEN: Yeah. I feel like I've been a part of so many apps where we're, like, reading those rules. And we're like, okay, you know, it's like, we're watching a live stream of birds.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nSTEPHEN: You know, like, the birds aren't digital [laughter], you know. It's like, [laughs] where does this fall in the rule? [laughs]
\n\nWILL: Yes [laughs]. I've done that, too [laughter]. Yep. It's almost like, you know, I feel like lawyers, okay, like, is this what this rule is, or the law what is written, or does this fall underneath that? So yeah, totally, totally agree.
\n\nSTEPHEN: Yep [laughs].
\n\nWILL: So, you've been here a couple of years at thoughtbot. What has been your experience building React Natives here for clients at thoughtbot?
\n\nSTEPHEN: Yeah, yeah. I've been at thoughtbot for about five years now. And I have been building React Native apps that whole time. And, I mean, I started at thoughtbot a little more in the full-stack space, web development, and have transitioned to where I'm mostly only building React Native mobile apps now.
\n\nIt's been a great experience. I think that React Native is really a sweet spot of; we're able to build these apps really efficiently and much less expensively than when we're doing pure native. And the end product is a really good app. So, it's been a great experience, you know, React Native is really...it has a really nice development experience. You know, it's the JavaScript React ecosystem. And we use TypeScript, and we have a really good developer experience with it. And then we're building apps that clients are really happy with and with a good budget.
\n\nSo, I think it's kind of that, you know, like, win-win-win kind of scenario where everybody is happy. And yeah, I don't see it going anywhere. And I think we're going to be building React Native apps for quite a while to come.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I totally agree with that. Where do you see React Native and mobile dev going here at thoughtbot in the next six months or even the next year? What are your goals for the mobile team?
\n\nSTEPHEN: We've got a couple of goals. One of them is around kind of what we've talked about with the mobile space in general. This isn't really specific to React Native, but it can be. But, consulting in the mobile space is challenging because there's a lot of mobile-specific domain knowledge that a team really needs to have.
\n\nSo, that's something that we've started looking into is, like, how do we build up our resources internally and then, hopefully, externally as well to help guide us on our projects and ensure that we have, like, you know, we are developing apps consistently and efficiently every time? So, that's something we're looking into is, like resources to help our teams—not just developers, but project managers, designers, and developers—help us navigate the mobile space.
\n\nOkay, you're going to do push notifications. Here's the library we use. Here's things to think about, and interactions to think about, and iOS-specific functionality that we could support, and Android-specific functionality that we can support. You know, you're going to do deep linking; do you want to use universal links, or do you want to use a different strategy, a scheme-based link? So, basically, building up that set of resources so that our teams are all able to consult and build efficiently and consistently across the board. So, that's kind of goal number one.
\n\nAnd then, goal number two is to kind of bring some of that out into the community a little bit more. So, thoughtbot is very well known in the Rails space for all of the open-source content we've put out and blog posts, and courses, and books. I mean, there's just so much on the Rails side that thoughtbot has done. And we're just a little bit less mature on the React Native side in terms of what we've put out there. So, that's kind of the second goal is giving back, helping others kind of do that same thing. I feel like we have developed our practices internally, and we're building some great apps. And it's kind of time to contribute back a little bit more.
\n\nWILL: Awesome. I'm looking forward to reaching those goals. If you can go back and give yourself advice, what would you tell yourself?
\n\nSTEPHEN: I would maybe say, read the documentation [laughs]. I don't know when I got into mobile; I think I just jumped in. And, you know, we've talked about some of the mobile-specific domain, and not knowing what you don't know, and app review guidelines. I feel like early on, I just responded to challenges as they came up, as opposed to just digging into, you know, Apple's documentation and Android's documentation and just really understanding the underlying operating systems in stores. That's probably a piece of advice.
\n\nIf I could go back, I would just start at the documentation, you know, go to developer.apple.com and read about all of the underlying APIs of StoreKit and, you know, associated domains and all of these sorts of things. Just learn 'em, and then you know 'em. [laughs].
\n\nSo, maybe that could have saved me some heartache if I just was a little more intentional about, okay, I'm getting into app development. I'm going to set aside some time and just really learn this stuff, as opposed to kind of where I had one foot in the door, one foot out of the door for a while. And I think that kept me from just sitting down and really going deep.
\n\nWILL: That's really good advice. Just read the documentation. And that's not just Apple.
\n\nSTEPHEN: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: That's a lot of departments, sections of my life. So, yes, I like that.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nSTEPHEN: I actually...that's something I did early in my career. So, I started as an Enterprise Java developer in 2011, and I was using the Spring framework. I downloaded the entire PDF. It was, like, 250 pages, the documentation [laughs]. And I remember just being on, like, airplane flights, and I just read the documentation, just cover to cover. That served me so well. I was, like, the expert, you know [laughs]. I don't always do it, but when I do, I'm like, oh yeah, why didn't I do that sooner? [laughs]
\n\nWILL: Yeah, totally agree. I like that. What is the wind in your sails? What motivates Stephen?
\n\nSTEPHEN: Like, I think what attracted me to software development is just being able to build stuff, you know, probably the same thing that attracted me to woodworking. So, I think what motivates me is that prospect of, hey, I'm building an app that people are going to use, and it's going to make their life better. So, that's really what gets me up and gets me motivated. It's less so the actual coding, to be honest. It's really the prospect of, like, hey, I'm building something.
\n\nWILL: Awesome. Yeah. Is there anything that you would like to promote?
\n\nSTEPHEN: If you're interested in building a mobile app, come talk to us. We'd love to build your mobile app. Go to thoughtbot.com/hire-us; I believe hire-us. We would love to talk to you about your mobile project. So, don't hesitate to reach out. We'd love to hear about what you're interested in building.
\n\nWILL: Awesome. Well, Stephen, it was great to chat with you. It's always great to chat with you about mobile development and just personal life things. So, I really appreciate you being on the podcast today.
\n\nSTEPHEN: Thanks for having me, Will. It was a lot of fun. Always good talking with you.
\n\nWILL: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm.
\n\nIf you have any questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Stephen Hanson.
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Victoria and Will interview Rishi Malik, the Founder of Backstop.it and VP of Engineering at Varo Bank. They talk about Rishi's recent adventure at DEF CON, the renowned annual security conference that he's attended for six years, and describes how it has transformed from a mere learning experience into a thrilling competition for him and his team. The conference = their playground for tackling an array of security challenges and brain-teasing puzzles, with a primary focus on cloud security competitions.
\n\nThey talk about the significance of community in such events and how problem-solving through interaction adds value. Rishi shares his background, tracing his path from firmware development through various tech companies to his current roles in security and engineering management.
\n\nThe vital topic of security in the fintech and banking sector highlights the initial concerns people had when online banking emerged. Rishi navigates through the technical intricacies of security measures, liability protection, and the regulatory framework that safeguards online banking for consumers. He also highlights the evolving landscape, where technological advancements and convenience have bolstered consumer confidence in online banking.
\n\nRishi shares his unique approach to leadership and decision-making, and pearls of wisdom for budding engineers starting their careers. His advice revolves around nurturing curiosity and relentlessly seeking to understand the "why" behind systems and processes.
\n\n__
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido.
\n\nWILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. And with us today is Rishi Malik, Founder of Backstop.it and VP of Engineering at Varo Bank. Rishi, thank you for joining us.
\n\nRISHI: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, Rishi. I'm so excited to talk with you today about your security background and get into your role at Varo and Backstop IT. But first, I wanted to hear a little bit more about your recent experience attending DEF CON. How was that?
\n\nRISHI: It was awesome. I do have quite the background in security at this point. And one of the things I started doing early on, as I was getting up to speed and learning more about the security-specific side of things, was beginning to attend DEF CON itself. So, I've now gone six years straight.
\n\nAnd it started out as just kind of experiencing the conference and security and meeting folks. But it's progressed to where I now bring a team of people where we go and we compete. We have a good time. But we do get to kind of bring the security side of things into the software engineering and engineering leadership stuff that we all do on a day-to-day basis.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And what kind of puzzles do you solve with your team when you attend DEF CON?
\n\nRISHI: There's definitely a lot of variety there, which I think is part of the fun. So, DEF CON frequently has electronic badges, you know, with random puzzles on there that you have to solve. Some of it are cryptographic. Some of them are kind of random cultural things. Sometimes there's music challenges based around it. Sometimes, it's social and interactive. And you have to go find the right type of badge or the right person behind it to unlock something. So, all of those, you know, typically exist and are a ton of fun.
\n\nPrimarily, in the last few years, we've been focusing more on the cloud CTF. So, in this case, it's our team competing against other teams and really focused on cloud security. So, it's, you know, figuring out vulnerabilities in, you know, specially designed puzzles around AWS and GCP, the application side of things as well, and competing to see how well you can do.
\n\nThree years ago, the last couple of years, we've not won it, but we've been pretty competitive. And the great thing is the field is expanding as more and more people get into CTF themselves but, more importantly, into cloud infrastructure and cloud knowledge there. So, it's just great to see that expansion and see what people are into, what people are learning, and how challenging some of these things can be.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love the idea of having a puzzle at a conference where you have to find a specific person to solve it. And yeah, I'm always interested in ways where we can have these events where you're getting together and building community and growing expertise in a field but in a way that makes it fun [laughs] and isn't just life-draining long, like, talks about random stuff.
\n\nRISHI: [laughs] I think what you're touching on there is crucial. And you said the word community, and, to me, that is, you know, a big part of what DEF CON and, you know, hacking and security culture is. But it is, I think, one of the things that kind of outside of this, we tend to miss it more, you know, specifically, like, focused conferences. It is more about kind of the content, you know, the hallway track is always a thing. But it's less intentional than I personally, at this stage, really prefer, you know. So, I do like those things where it is encouraging interaction.
\n\nFor me, I'd rather go to happy hour with some people who are really well versed in the subject that they're in rather than even necessarily listening to a talk from them on what they're doing. Simply because I think the community aspect, the social aspect, actually gets you more of the information that is more relevant to what you're doing on a day-to-day basis than just consuming it passively.
\n\nVICTORIA: I agree because consuming it passively or even intentionally remotely, there are things that you didn't even think to think about [laughs] that aren't going to come up just on your own. You have to have another person there who's...Actually, I have a good friend who's co-working with me this week who's at Ticketmaster. And so, just hearing about some of the problems they have and issues there has been entertaining for me. So yeah, I love that about DEF CON, and I love hearing about community stories and fun ways that companies can get a benefit out of coming together and just putting good content out there.
\n\nRISHI: Absolutely. I think problem-solving is where you get the most value out of it as a company and as a business.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, maybe that's a good segue to tell me a little bit more about your background and how you came to be where you are today.
\n\nRISHI: Yeah. For me growing up, I was always that problem-solver type of person. So, I think that's what kind of naturally gravitated me towards tech and, you know, hardware and software engineering. You know, so, for me, I go back quite a while. I'd been doing a lot of development, you know, in the early days of my career.
\n\nI started out doing firmware development back in the days of large tape libraries, right? So, if you think about, like, big businesses back before cloud was a big thing and even back before SSDs were a thing, you know, it was all spinning disks. It was all tape. And that's kind of the area that I started in. So, I was working on robots that actually move tapes around these giant tape libraries that are, you know, taller than I am that you can walk inside of because they're so big, for big corporations to be able to backup their data on an overnight basis. You have to do that kind of stuff.
\n\nThen I started going into smaller and smaller companies, into web tech, into startups, then into venture-backed startups. And then, eventually, I started my own company and did that for a while. All of this is really just kind of, you know, software engineering in a nutshell, lots of different languages, lots of different technologies. But really, from the standpoint of, here's a whole bunch of hard problems that need to be solved. Let's figure out how we can do that and how we can make some money by solving some of these problems.
\n\nThat eventually kind of led me down the security path as well and the engineering management side of things, which is what I do now, both at Backstop...is a security consulting business and being VP of Engineering at Varo Bank.
\n\nWILL: How was your journey? Because you started as an intern in 2003.
\n\nRISHI: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: And then, you know, 20 years later. So, how was your journey through all of that? [laughs]
\n\nRISHI: [laughs] You know, I hadn't actually put it together that it has been 20 years this year until you said that. So, that's awesome. It's been a blast, you know. I can honestly say it's been wildly different than what I imagined 20 years ago and interesting in different ways. I think I'm very fortunate to be able to say that.
\n\nWhen I started out as an intern in 2003, technologies were very different. I was doing some intern shifts with the federal government, you know, so the pace was wildly different. And when I think of where technology has come now, and where the industry has gone, and what I get to do on a day-to-day basis, I'm kind of just almost speechless at just how far we've come in 20 years, how easy some things are, how remarkably hard some other things are that should honestly be easy at this point, but just the things that we can do.
\n\nI'm old enough that I remember cell phones being a thing and then smartphones coming out and playing with them and being like, yeah, this is kind of mediocre. I don't really know why people would want this. And the iPhone coming out and just changing the game and being like, okay, now I get it. You know, to the experience of the internet and, you know, mobile data and everywhere. It's just phenomenal the advances that we've had in the last 20 years. And it makes me excited for the next 20 years to see what we can do as we go forward.
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm going to take personal offense to someone knowing that technology being too old [laughs], but, yeah, because it really wasn't that long ago. And I think one thing I always think about having a background in civic tech and in financial tech as well is that the future is here; it's just not evenly distributed. So, now, if you're building a new company, of course, the default is to go straight to the cloud.
\n\nBut many companies and organizations that have been around for 60-80 years and using the internet right when it first came out are still in really old technologies that just simply work. And maybe they're not totally sure why, and change is difficult and slow. So, I wonder if you have any experience that you can take from the banking or fintech industry on how to make the most out of modern security and compliance platforms.
\n\nRISHI: Yeah, you know, I think most people in tech especially...and the gray hairs on me are saying the younger folks in tech especially don't realize just how much older technologies still exist and will exist for quite some time.
\n\nWhen you think of banking itself, you know, most of the major companies that you can think of, you know, in the U.S. especially but kind of across the world that are the top tier names of banks, and networks, and stuff like that, still run mainframes. When you swipe your credit card, there's a very good chance that is processed on a mainframe. And that's not a bad thing. But it's just, you know when you talk to younger engineers, it's not something that kind of crosses their mind. They feel like it is old-tech.
\n\nThe bulk of businesses don't actually run on the cloud. Having been through it, I've racked and stacked servers and had to figure out how to physically take hardware across, you know, country borders and things like those lines. And now, when I do want to spin up a server somewhere else, it's just a different AWS region. So, it's remarkably easy, at this point, to solve a lot of those problems.
\n\nBut once you're up and live and you have customers, you know, where downtime is impactful or, you know, the cost of moving to the cloud or modernizing your technology is substantial, things tend to move a lot slower. And I think you see that, especially when it comes to security, because we have more modern movements like DevOps bringing security into it. And with a lot of the, you know, the modern security and compliance platforms that exist, they work very, very well for what they do, especially when you're a startup or your whole tech stack is modernized.
\n\nThe biggest challenges, I think, seem to come in when you have that hybrid aspect of it. You do have some cloud infrastructure you have to secure. You do have some physical data centers you have to secure. You have something that is, you know, on-premise in your office. You have something that is co [inaudible 10:01] somewhere else. Or you also have to deal with stuff like, you know, much less modern tech, you know, when it comes to mainframes and security and kind of being responsible for all of that.
\n\nAnd I think that is a big challenge because security is one of those things where it's, you know, if you think of your house, you can have the strongest locks on your door and everything else like that. But if you have one weak point, you have a window that's left open, that's all it takes. And so, it has to be all-inclusive and holistic. And I think that is remarkably hard to do well, even despite where technology has come to these days.
\n\nWILL: Speaking of securities, I remember when the Internet banking started a couple of years ago. And some of the biggest, I guess, fears were, like, the security around it, the safety. Because, you know, your money, you're putting your money in it, and you can't go to a physical location to talk to anyone or anything. And the more and more you learn about it...at first, I was terrified of it because you couldn't go talk to someone. But the more and more I learned about it, I was like, oh, there's so much security around it. In your role, what does that look like for you? Because you have such a huge impact with people's money. So, how do you overcome that fear that people have?
\n\nRISHI: There's, I think, a number of steps that kind of go into it. And, you know, in 2023, it's certainly a little bit easier than it used to be. But, you know, very similar, I've had the same questions, you know, and concerns that you're describing. And I remember using one of the first banks that was essentially all digital and kind of wondering, you know, where is my money going? What happens if something goes wrong? And all of those types of things.
\n\nAnd so, I think there is kind of a number of different aspects that go into it. One is, you know, obviously, the technical aspects of security, you know, when you put your credit card number in on the internet, you know, is it encrypted? You know, is it over, you know, TLS? What's happening there? You know, how safe and secure is all that kind of thing?
\n\nYou know, at this point, pretty much everyone, at least in the U.S., has been affected by credit card breaches, huge companies like Home Depot and Target that got cards accessed or, you know, just even the smaller companies when you're buying something random from maybe something...a smaller website on the internet. You know, that's all a little bit better now. So, I think what you have there was just kind of a little bit of becoming comfortable with what exists now.
\n\nThe other aspect, though, I think, then comes into, well, what happens when something goes wrong? And I think there's a number of aspects that are super helpful for that. I think the liability aspect of credit card, you know, companies saying, you know, and the banks "You're not liable for a fraudulent transaction," I think that was a very big and important step that really helps with that.
\n\nAnd on top of that, then I think when you have stuff like the FDIC, you know, and insurance in the U.S., you know, that is government-backed that says, you know what? Even if this is an online-only digital bank, you're safe. You're protected. The government's got your back in that regard. And we're going to make sure that's covered. At Varo, that's one of the key things that we think about a lot because we are a bank.
\n\nNow, most FinTechs, actually, aren't banks, right? They partner with other third-party banks to provide their financial services. Whereas at Varo, we are federally regulated. And so, we have the full FDIC protection. We get the benefits of that. But it also means that we deal with the regulation aspects and being able to prove that we are safe and secure and show the regulators that we're doing the right things for our customers.
\n\nAnd I think that's huge and important because, obviously, it's safety for customers. But then it changes how you begin to think about how you're designing products, and how you're [inaudible 13:34] them, and, you know, how you're marketing them. Are we making a mobile app that shows that we're safe, and secure, and stable? Or are we doing this [inaudible 13:42] thing of moving too fast and breaking things?
\n\nWhen it's people's money, you have to be very, very dialed into that. You still have to be able to move fast, but you have to show the protection and the safety that people have because it is impactful to their lives. And so, I think from the FinTech perspective, that's a shift that's been happening over the last couple of years to continue that.
\n\nThe last thing I'll say, too, is that part of it has just come from technology itself and the comfort there. It used to be that people who were buying, you know, items on the internet were more the exception rather than the rule. And now with Amazon, with Shopify, with all the other stuff that's out there, like, it's much more than a norm. And so, all of that just adds that level of comfort that says, I know I'm doing the right things as a consumer, that I'm protected. If I, you know, do have problems, my bank's got my back. The government is watching out for what's happening and trying to do what they can do to regulate all of that.
\n\nSo, I think all of that has combined to get to that point where we can do much more of our banking online and safely. And I think that's a pretty fantastic thing when it comes to what customers get from that. I am old enough that I remember having to figure out times to get to the bank because they're open nine to five, and, you know, I have to deposit my paycheck. And, you know, I work nine to five, and maybe more hours pass, and I had no idea when I can go get that submitted.
\n\nAnd now, when I have to deposit something, I can just take a picture with my phone, and it safely makes it to my account. So, I think the convenience that we have now is really amazing, but it has certainly taken some time. And I think a number of different industry and commercial players kind of come together and make that happen.
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\n\nVICTORIA: I appreciate that perspective on approaching security from the user experience of wanting safety. And I'm curious if we can talk in contrast from that experience to the developer experience with security. And how do you, as a new leader in this financial product company, prioritize security and introduce it from a, like, building a safety culture perspective?
\n\nRISHI: I think you just said that very eloquently. It is a safety culture. And cultural changes are hard. And I think for quite some time in the developer industry, security was either an afterthought or somebody else's problem. You know, it's the security team that has to think about it. It's, you know, and even these days, it's the red team that's going to go, you know, find these answers or whatever I'm shipping as a developer. My only thing to focus on is how fast I can ship, or, you know, what I'm shipping, rather than how secure is what I'm shipping.
\n\nAnd so, I think to really be effective at that, it is a cultural shift. You have to think and talk about security from the outset. And you have to bake those processes into how you build product. Those security conversations really do need to start at the design phase. And, you know, thinking about a mobile app for a bank as an example, you know, it starts when you're just thinking about the different screens on a mobile app that people are going to go through. How are people interpreting this? You know, what is the [inaudible 17:23], and the feeling, and the emotions, that we're building towards? You know, is that safe and secure or, you know, is it not?
\n\nBut then it starts getting to the architecture and the design of the systems themselves to say, well, here's how they're going to enter information, here's how we're passing this back and forth. And especially in a world where a lot of software isn't just 100% in-house, but we're calling other partners for that, you know, be it, you know, infrastructure or risk, you know, or compliance, or whatever else it may be, how are we protecting people's data? How are we making sure our third parties are protecting people's data? You know, how are we encrypting it? How are we thinking about their safety all the way through?
\n\nAgain, even all the way down to the individual developer that's writing code, how are we verifying they're writing good, high-quality, secure code? Part of it is training, part of it is culture, part of it is using good tooling around that to be able to make sure and say, when humans make mistakes because we are all human and we all will make mistakes, how are we catching that?
\n\nWhat are the layers do we have to make sure that if a mistake does happen, we either catch it before it happens or, you know, we have defense in depth such that that mistake in and of itself isn't enough to cause a, you know, compromise or a problem for our customers? So, I think it starts right from the start. And then, every kind of step along the way for delivering value for customers, also let's add that security and privacy and compliance perspective in there as well.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, I agree. And I don't want to work for a company where if I make a small human mistake, I'm going to potentially cost someone tens or however many thousands of dollars. [laughs]
\n\nWILL: I have a question around that. How, as a leader, how does that affect you day to day? Because I feel like there's some companies, maybe thoughtbot, maybe other companies, that a decision is not as critical as working as a bank. So, you, as a leader, how do you handle that?
\n\nRISHI: There's a couple of things I try and consider in any given big or important decision I have to make, the aspects around, like, you know, the context, what the decision is, and that type of stuff. But from a higher level, there's kind of two things I try and keep in mind. And when I say keep in mind, like, when it's a big, impactful decision, I will actually go through the steps of, you know, writing it down or talking this out loud, sometimes by myself, sometimes with others, just, again, to make sure we are actually getting to the meat of it.
\n\nBut the first thing I'm trying to think of is kind of the Amazon idea of one-way versus two-way doors. If we make this decision and this is the wrong decision, what are the ramifications of that? You know, is it super easy to undo and there's very little risk with it? Or is it once we've made this decision or the negative outcome of this decision has happened, is it unfixable to a certain degree?
\n\nYou know, and that is a good reminder in my head to make sure that, you know, A, I am considering it deeply. And that, B, if it is something where the ramifications, you know, are super huge, that you do take the time, and you do the legwork necessary to make sure you're making a good, valid decision, you know, based on the data, based on the risks involved and that there's a deep understanding of the problem there.
\n\nThe second thing I try to think of is our customers. So, at Varo, our customers aren't who most banks target. A lot of banks want you to take all your money, put it in there, and they're going to loan that money out to make their money. And Varo is not that type of bank, and we focus on a pretty different segment of the market. What that means is our customers need their money. They need it safely and reliably, and it needs to be accurate when they have it.
\n\nAnd what I mean by that is, you know, frequently, our customers may not have, you know, hundreds or a thousand dollars worth of float in their bank accounts. So, if they're going and they're buying groceries and they can't because there's an error on our side because we're down, and because the transactions haven't settled, then that is very, very impactful to them, you know, as an individual.
\n\nAnd I think about that with most of these decisions because being in software and being in engineering I am fortunate enough that I'm not necessarily experiencing the same economic struggles that our customers may have. And so, that reminder helps me to think about it from their perspective. In addition, I also like to try and think of it from the perspective...from my mom, actually, who, you know, she is retired age. She's a teacher. She's non-technical.
\n\nAnd so, I think about her because I'd say, okay, when we're making a product or a design decision, how easy is it for her to understand? And my biases when I think about that, really kind of come into focus when I think about how she would interpret things. Because, you know, again, for me, I'm in tech. I think about things, you know, very analytically. And I just have a ton of experience across the industry, which she doesn't have. So, even something as simple as a little bit of copy for a page that makes a ton of sense to me, when I think about how she would interpret it, it's frequently wildly different.
\n\nAnd so, all of those things, I think, kind of come together to help make a very strong and informed decision in these types of situations where the negative outcomes really do matter. But you are, you know, as Varo is, you're a startup. And you do need to be able to build more products quickly because our customers have needs that aren't being met by the existing banking industry. And so, we need to provide value to them so that their lives are a bit better.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that focus on a specific market segment and their needs and solving for that problem. And we know that if you're at a certain income level, it's more expensive [laughs] because of the overdraft fees and other things that can cause you problems. So, I really appreciate that that's the mission at Varo, and that's who you're focusing on to create a better banking product that makes more sense.
\n\nI'm curious if there were any surprises and challenges that you could share from that discovery process and finding out, you know, exactly what were those things where your mom was, like, uh, actually, I need something completely different. [laughs]
\n\nRISHI: Yeah, so, [chuckles] I'm chuckling because, you know, it's not, like, a single kind of time or event. It's, you know, definitely an ongoing process. But, you know, as actually, we were talking, you know, about earlier in terms of being kind of comfortable with doing things digital and online, that in and of itself is something that even in 2023, my mom isn't as comfortable or as confident as, you know, say, maybe the three of us are.
\n\nAs an example, when sending money, you know, kind of like a peer-to-peer basis, like, if I'm sending my mom a little bit of money, or she's sending me something, you're kind of within the family. Things that I would think would be kind of very easy and straightforward actually do cause her a little bit more concern. Okay, I'm entering my debit card number into this so that it can get, you know, the cash transferred into my bank account. You know, again, for me, it didn't even cross my mind, actually, that that would be something uncomfortable. But for my mom, that was something where she actually had some concerns about it and was messaging me.
\n\nHer kind of personal point of view on that was, I would rather use a credit card for this and get the money on a credit card instead of a debit card because the debit card is linked to a bank account, and the security around that needs to be, you know, much tighter. And so, it made her more uncomfortable entering that on her phone. Whereas even a credit card it would have given her a little bit more peace of mind simply because it wasn't directly tied to her bank account.
\n\nSo, that's just, you know, the most recent example. I mean, honestly, that was earlier today, but it's something I hadn't thought of. And, again, for most of our customers, maybe that's not the case and how they think. But for folks that are at that retirement age, you know, in a world where there are constant barrages of scam, you know, emails, and phone calls, and text messages going around, the concern was definitely there.
\n\nVICTORIA: That happened to me. Last week, I was on vacation with my family, and we needed to pay my mom for the house we'd rented. And I had to teach her how to use Zelle and set up Zelle. [laughter] It was a week-long process. But we got there, and it works [laughs] now. But yeah, it's interesting what concerns they have. And the funny part about it was that my sister-in-law happens to be, like, a lawyer who prevents class action lawsuits at a major bank. And she reassured us that it was, in fact, secure. [laughs]
\n\nI think it's interesting thinking about that user experience for security. And I'm curious, again, like, compare again with the developer experience and using security toolings. And I wonder if you had any top recommendations on tools that make the developer experience a little more comfortable and feeling like you're deploying with security in mind.
\n\nRISHI: That, in particular, is a bit of a hard question to answer. I try and stay away from specific vendors when it comes to that because I think a lot of it is contextual. But I could definitely talk through, like, some of the tools that I use and the way I like to think about it, especially from the developer perspective.
\n\nI think, first off, consider what aspect of the software development, you know, lifecycle you're in. If you are an engineer writing, you know, mostly application code and dealing with building product and features and stuff like that, start from that angle. I could even take a step back and say security as an industry is very, very wide at this point. There is somebody trying to sell you a tool for basically every step in the SDLC process, and honestly, before and after to [inaudible 26:23]. I would even almost say it's, to some extent, kind of information and vendor overload in a lot of ways.
\n\nSo, I think what's important is to think about what your particular aspect of that is. Again, as an application engineer, or if you're building cloud infrastructure, or if you're an SRE, you know, or a platform team, kind of depending on what you are, your tooling will be different. The concepts are all kind of similar ideas, but how you go about what you build will be different.
\n\nIn general, I like to say, from the app side of things, A, start with considering the code you're writing. And that's a little bit cultural, but it's also kind of more training. Are you writing code with a security mindset? are you designing systems with a security mindset? These aren't things that are typically taught, you know, in school if you go get a CS degree, or even in a lot of companies in terms of the things that you should be thinking about. So, A, start from there.
\n\nAnd if you don't feel like you think about, you know, is this design secure? Have we done, you know, threat modeling on it? Are we considering all of the error paths or the negative ways people can break the system? Then, start from that and start going through some of the security training that exists out there. And there's a lot of different aspects or avenues by which you can get that to be able to say, like, okay, I know I'm at least thinking about the code I write with a security mindset, even if you haven't actually changed anything about the code you're writing yet.
\n\nWhat I actually think is really helpful for a lot of engineers is to have them try and break things. It's why I like to compete in CTFs, but it's also why I like to have my engineers do the same types of things. Trying to break software is both really insightful from the aspect that you don't get when you're just writing code and shipping it because it's not something you have time to do, but it's also a great way to build up some of the skills that you need to then protect against.
\n\nAnd there's a lot of good, you know, cyber ranges out there. There's lots of good, just intentionally vulnerable applications that you can find on GitHub but that you can just run, you know, locally even on your machine and say, okay, now I have a little web app stood up. I know this is vulnerable. What do I do? How do I go and break it? Because then all of a sudden, the code that you're writing you start to think about a little bit differently.
\n\nIt's not just about how am I solving this product problem or this development problem? But it's, how am I doing this in a way that is safe and secure? Again, as an application side of things, you know, just make sure you know the OWASP Top 10 inside and out. Those are the most basic things a lot of engineers miss. And it only takes, again, one miss for it to be critical. So, start reviewing it.
\n\nAnd then, you start to think about the tooling aspect of it. People are human. We're going to make mistakes. So, how do we use the power of technology to be able to stop this? You know, and there is static scanning tools. Like, there's a whole bunch of different ones out there. You know, Semgrep is a great one that's open source just to get started with that can help you find the vulnerable code that may exist there.
\n\nConsider the SQL queries that you're writing, and most importantly, how you're writing them. You know, are you taking user input and just chucking it in there, or are you sanitizing it? When I ask these questions, for a lot of engineers, it's not usually yes or no. It's much more of an, well, I don't know. Because in software, we do a really good job of writing abstraction layers. But that also means, you know, to some extent, there may be a little bit of magic in there, or a lack thereof of magic that you don't necessarily know about.
\n\nAnd so, you have to be able to dive into the libraries. You have to know what you're doing to even be able to say something like, oh no, this SQL query is safe from this user input because we have sanitized it. We have, you know, done a prepared statement, whatever it may be. Or, no, actually, we are just doing something here that's been vulnerable, and we didn't realize we were, and so now that's something we have to address.
\n\nSo, I think, like, that aspect in and of itself, which isn't, you know, a crazy ton of things. It's not spending a ton of money on different tools. But it's just internalizing the fact that you start to think a little bit differently. It provides a ton of value.
\n\nThe last thing on that, too, is to be able to say, especially if you're coming from a development side, or even just from a founder or a startup side of things, what are my big risks? What do I need to take care of first? What are the giant holes or flaws? You know, and what is my threat model around that?
\n\nObviously, as a bank, you have to care very deeply right from the start. You know, if you're not a bank, if you're not dealing with financial transactions, or PII, or anything like that, there are some things that you can deal with a little bit later. So, you have to know your industry, and you have to know what people are trying to do and the threat models and the threat vectors that can exist based on where you are.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing. You know, earlier, we talked about you being an engineer for 20 years, different areas, and stuff like that. Do you have any advice for engineers that are starting out right now? And, you know, from probably year one to year, you know, anything under ten years of experience, do you have any advice that you usually give engineers when you're chatting with them?
\n\nRISHI: The advice I tend to give people who are just starting out is be the type of person that asks, "How does this work?" Or "Why does this work?" And then do the work to figure out the answer. Maybe it is talking to someone; maybe it's diving into the details; maybe it's reading a book in some aspect that you haven't had much exposure to.
\n\nWhen I look at my career and when I look at the careers of folks around me and the people that I've seen be most successful, both in engineering but also on the business side, that desire to know why something is the case is I think, one of the biggest things that determines success. And then the ability to answer that question by putting in the right types of work, the right types of scientific method and processes and such, are the other factor. So, to me, that's what I try and get across to people.
\n\nI say that mostly to junior folks because I think when you're getting started, it's really difficult. There's a ton out there. And we've, again, as software engineers, and hardware engineers, and cloud, and all this kind of stuff, done a pretty good job of building a ton of abstraction layers. All of our abstraction layers [inaudible 32:28] to some degree.
\n\nYou know, so as you start, you know, writing a bunch of code, you start finding a bunch of bugs that you don't necessarily know how to solve and that don't make any sense in the avenue that you've been exposed to. But as soon as you get into the next layer, you understand how that works begin to make a lot more sense. So, I think being comfortable with saying, "I have no idea why this is the case, but I'm going to go find out," makes the biggest difference for people just starting out their career.
\n\nWILL: I love that advice. Not too long ago, my manager encouraged me to write a blog post on something that I thought that I really knew. And when I started writing that blog post, I was like, oh boy, I have no idea. I know how to do it, but I don't know the why behind it. And so, I was very thankful that he encouraged me to write a blog post on it. Because once you start explaining it to other people, I feel you really have to know the whys. And so, I love that advice. That's really good advice.
\n\nVICTORIA: Me too. And it makes sense with what we see statistically as well in the DORA research. The DevOps Research Association publishes a survey every year, the State of DevOps Report. And one of the biggest findings I remember from last year's was that the most secure and reliable systems have the most open communication and high trust among the teams. And so, being able to have that curiosity as a junior developer, you need to be in an environment where you can feel comfortable asking questions [laughs], and you can approach different people, and you're encouraged to make those connections and write blog posts like Will was saying.
\n\nRISHI: Absolutely, absolutely. I think you touched on something very important there as well. The psychological safety really makes a big difference. And I think that's critical for, again, like, folks especially earlier in their career or have recently transitioned to tech, or whatever the case may be. Because asking "Why?" should be something that excites people, and there are companies where that's not necessarily the case, right? Where you asking why, it seems to be viewed as a sign that you don't know something, and therefore, you're not as good as what you should be, you know, the level you should be at or for whatever they expect.
\n\nBut I do think that's the wrong attitude. I think the more people ask why, the more people are able and comfortable to be able to say, "I don't know, but I'm going to go find out," and then being able to be successful with that makes way better systems. It makes way safer and more secure systems. And, honestly, I think it makes humans, in general, better humans because we can do that.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think that's a great note to start to wrap up on. Is there any questions that you have for me or Will?
\n\nRISHI: Yeah. I would love to hear from both of you as to what you see; with the experiences that you have and what you do, the biggest impediments or speed bumps are when it comes to developers being able to write and ship secure code.
\n\nVICTORIA: When we're talking with new clients, it depends on where they are in really the adoption of their product and the maturity of their organization. Some early founders really have no technology experience. They have never managed an IT organization. You know, setting up basic employee account access and IDs is some of the initial steps you have to take to really get to where you can do identity management, and permissions management, and all the things that are really table stakes for security.
\n\nAnd then others have some progress, and they have a fair amount of data. And maybe it's in that situation, like you said before, where it's really a trade-off between the cost and benefit of making those changes to a more secure, more best practice in the cloud or in their CI/CD pipeline or wherever it may be.
\n\nAnd then, when you're a larger organization, and you have to make the trade-offs between all of that, and how it's impacting your developer experience, and how long are those deployed times now. And you might get fewer rates of errors and fewer rates of security vulnerabilities. But if it's taking three hours for your deployments to go out [laughs] because there's so many people, and there's so many checks to go through, then you have to consider where you can make some cuts and where there might be more efficiencies to be gained.
\n\nSo, it's really interesting. Everyone's on a different point in their journey. And starting with the basics, like you said, I love that you brought up the OWASP Top 10. We've been adopting the CIS Controls and just doing a basic internal security audit ourselves to get more ready and to be in a position where...
\n\nWhat I'm familiar with as well from working in federal agencies, consulting, maintaining some of the older security frameworks can be a really high cost, not only in terms of auditing fees but what it impacts to your organization to, like, maintain those things [laughs] and the documentation required. And how do you do that in an agile way, in a way that really focuses on addressing the actual purpose of the requirements over needing to check a box? And how do we replicate that for our clients as well?
\n\nRISHI: That is super helpful. And I think the checkbox aspect that you just discussed I think is key. It's a difficult position to be in when there are boxes that you have to check and don't necessarily actually add value when it comes to security or compliance or, you know, a decrease in risk for the company. And I think that one of the challenges industry-wide has always been that security and compliance in and of itself tends to move a little bit slower from a blue team or a protection perspective than the rest of the industry.
\n\nAnd so, I mean, I can think of, you know, audits that I've been in where, you know, just even the fact that things were cloud-hosted just didn't make sense to the auditors. And it was a struggle to get them to understand that, you know, there is shared responsibility, and this kind of stuff exists, and AWS is taking care of some things, and we're taking care of some other things when they've just been developed with this on-premise kind of mentality.
\n\nThat is one of the big challenges that still exists kind of across the board is making sure that the security work that you're doing adds security value, adds business value. It isn't just checking the box for the sake of checking the box, even when that's sometimes necessary.
\n\nVICTORIA: I am a pro box checker.
\n\nRISHI: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Like, I'll get the box checked. I'll use Trello and Confluence and any other tool besides Excel to do it, too. We'll make it happen with less pain, but I'd rather not do it [laughs] if we don't have to.
\n\nRISHI: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Let's make it easy. No, I love it. Is there anything else that you want to promote?
\n\nRISHI: No, I don't think there's anything else I want to promote other than I'm going to go back to what I said just earlier, like, that culture. And if, you know, folks are out there and you have junior engineers, you have engineers that are asking "Why?", you have people that just want to do the right thing and get better, lean into that. Double down on those types of folks. Those are the ones that are going to make big differences in what you do as a business, and do what you can to help them out. I think that is something we don't see enough of in the industry still. And I would love for that to change.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. Thank you so much, Rishi, for joining us.
\n\nRISHI: Thanks for having me. This was a great conversation. I appreciate the time.
\n\nVICTORIA: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nWILL: And you could find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Rishi Malik.
Sponsored By:
Amy Spurling is the Founder and CEO of Compt, helping companies build and scale flexible perks, stipends that delight teams. She explains how Compt's approach to benefits aligns with an employee's life stages, and shares insights from data that revealed the vast diversity of vendors utilized by employees.
\n\nAmy talks about fundraising for Compt, highlighting the gender investment gap and the difficulties faced by female founders. She also shares her personal experiences as a lesbian founder and emphasizes the importance of a diverse workforce. She outlines Compt's mission to provide equitable compensation and foster a broader perspective within companies, the economic miss of not investing in female-founded companies, and the complexities of transitioning into different roles within a startup.
\n\nAmy's leadership values of balance and belonging are explored, and she shares insights about navigating hurdles like SOC 2 and GDPR compliance. Additionally, they talk about trends in the tech industry, such as AI's use in healthcare and the potential for bias in software, along with data privacy issues.
\n\n__
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido.
\n\nWILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. And with us today is Amy Spurling, Founder and CEO of Compt, helping companies build and scale flexible perks, stipends that delight teams. Amy, thank you for joining.
\n\nAMY: Thanks so much for having me.
\n\nVICTORIA: Amy, I saw in your LinkedIn background that you have a picture of someone hiking in what looks like a very remote area. So, just to start us off today, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about that. And what's your hobby there?
\n\nAMY: Sure. I do spend a lot of time backpacking. That picture, I believe, was actually taken in Mongolia a couple of years ago. We spent ten days kind of hiking around in, I mean, everything is backcountry basically in Mongolia. So, spending a lot of time walking around, looking at mountains, is kind of my pastime.
\n\nWILL: I have a question around backpacking itself. When you say backpacking, what does that mean? Does it mean you only have a backpack, and you're out in the mountains, and you're just enjoying life?
\n\nAMY: It depends. So, in Mongolia, there were a couple of folks with camels, so carrying the heavy gear for us but still living in tents. My wife and I just did a backpacking trip in the Accursed Mountains in Albania, though, and everything was on our backpack. So, you're carrying a 35-pound pack. It has all your food, your water, your camping gear, and you just go. And you're just kind of living off the land kind of. I mean, you're taking food, so it's not like I'm foraging or hunting but living in the outback.
\n\nWILL: Wow. What does that do for you just internally, just getting off the grid, enjoying nature? Because I know with tech and everything now, it's kind of hard to do that. But you've done that, I think you said, for ten days. Like, walk us through that experience a little bit.
\n\nAMY: Some people use yoga, things like that, to go to a zen place, be calm, you know, help quiet their mind. For me, I need to do something active, and that's what I use this for. So getting off away from my phone, away from my laptop—those are not available to me when I'm in the mountains—and just focusing on being very present and listening to the birds, smelling the flowers. You know, pushing myself to where I'm, you know, exerting a lot of energy hiking and just kind of being is just...it's pretty fantastic.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm curious, what brought you to decide to go to Albania to get to that experience? Because that's not a top destination for many people. But --
\n\nAMY: It is not. So, we travel a fair amount, and we backpack a fair amount. And the mountains there are honestly some of the most beautiful I've seen anywhere in the world. And so, we're always looking for, where can you get off the grid pretty quickly? Where can you be in the mountains pretty quickly in a way that still has a path so that you're not putting yourself in danger? Unless...I mean, we've done that too.
\n\nBut you want to make sure you have a guide, obviously, if you're going completely no path, no trail kind of camping, too. But it just looked really beautiful. We planned it actually for three years ago and had to cancel because it was May of 2020. And so, we've had this trip kind of on the books and planned for it for a while.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's awesome. Yeah, I know of Albania because I had a friend who worked there for a few years. And she said the rock climbing there is amazing. And it actually has one of the last wild rivers in Europe. So, it's just a very remote, very interesting place. So, it's funny that you went there [laughs]. I was like, wait, other people also go to Albania. That's awesome. I love the outdoor space.
\n\nWell, what a great perk or benefit to working to be able to take those vacations and take that time off and spend it in a way that makes you feel refreshed. Tell me more about Compt and your background. What led you to found this company?
\n\nAMY: Sure. I've been in tech companies for, you know, over 20 years. I've been a CFO, a COO building other people's dreams, so coming in as a primary executive, you know, first funding round type of person, help scale the team, manage finance and HR. And I loved doing that, but I got really frustrated with the lack of tools that I needed to be able to hire people and to retain people. Because the way we compensate people has changed for the last 10, 15 years.
\n\nAnd so, ultimately, decided to build a platform to solve my own problem and my own team's problems, and started that getting close to six years ago now. But wanted to build a tech company in a very different way as well. So, in the same way, I take time off, I want my team to take time off. So, we operate on a basis of everyone should be taking their time off. Don't check in while you're out. We'll make sure we're covered. You know, let's build a sustainable business here. And everybody should be working 40 to 45 hours a week, which is definitely not a startup culture or norm.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. I love that. I was doing some research on Compt. And so, in your words, can you explain to everyone exactly what your company does?
\n\nAMY: Sure. So, we build lifestyle benefit accounts for companies. And what that means...and the terminology keeps changing, so some people may call them stipends or allowances. But it's really looking at how you pull together employee perks, benefits that will help compete for talent. And right now, retention is kind of the key driver for most companies. How do I keep the people I have really happy?
\n\nCompetitive salaries are obviously table stakes. Health insurance for most industries is table stakes. So, it's, what else are you offering them? You can offer a grab bag of stuff, which a lot of companies try and do, but you get very low utilization. Or you can do something like a stipend or a lifestyle spending account, which is what we build, which allows for complete flexibility so that every employee can do something different. So that even if you're offering wellness, you know, what the three of us think about as wellness is likely very different.
\n\nI spend a lot of money at REI, like, they are basically, like, as big as my mortgage. I spend so much money there because I want backpacking gear. Wellness for you folks may be a little bit different. And so, allowing for that personalization so everybody can do something that matters to them.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And I love that it comes from a problem you found in your own experience of working with early-stage startups and being on the executive level and finance and building teams from the ground up. So, I'm curious, what lessons did you find in your previous roles that were maybe ten times more important when you started your own company?
\n\nAMY: I learned so much through all of my prior companies and pulled in the lessons of the things that worked really well but then also the things that it was, like, wow, I would definitely do that different. DEI is very important to us. I knew building a diverse team was going to be a competitive advantage for us. And none of my prior teams really met that mark. You know, most of them were Boston-based, the usual kind of profile of a tech company: 85%-95% White guys, mostly from MIT, you know, very, very talented, but also coached and trained by the same professors for the last 20 years.
\n\nSo, I knew I wanted different perspectives around the table, and that was going to be really key. So, looking at non-traditional backgrounds, especially as we were looking at hiring engineers, for instance, that was really interesting to me because I knew that would be part of our competitive advantage as we started building up this platform that is employee engagement but very much a tax compliance and budgeting tool as well.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love hearing that. And it's something I've heard from actually thoughtbot's founder, Chad. That is something he wished he invested more in when he first started it. So, I'm curious as to how that's played out from when you started to where you are now. You said, I think, it's been six years, right?
\n\nAMY: January will be six years, so five and a half-ish, I guess, right now. I mean, it was a stated part of what we were going to do from day one. All of my prior companies wanted that as well. I don't think anybody starts out and says, "Hey, I'd really love a one-note company." No one says that. Everybody thinks that they're doing the right things and hiring the best talent. But what you do is you end up hiring from your network, which usually looks just like you.
\n\nAnd when you get to be, you know, 100, 150 people and you're looking around going, wow, we have some gaps here, it's really hard to fill them because who wants to be the first and the only of whatever? You know, I've been the only woman on most management teams.
\n\nSo, for us, it was day one, make it part of the focus and make sure we're really looking for the best talent and casting a very wide net. So, right now, we're sitting at 56% female and 36% people of color, and somewhere around 18%-19% LGBTQIA. So, we're trying to make sure that we're attracting all those amazing perspectives.
\n\nAnd they're from people from around the country, which I also think is really important when you're building a tech company. Don't just build in areas where you're in your little tech bubble. If you want to build a product that actually services everyone, you need to have other kind of cultural and country perspectives as well.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And that makes perfect sense for what you described earlier for Compt, that it is supposed to be flexible to provide health benefits or wellness benefits to anyone. And there can be a lot of different definitions of that. So, it makes sense that your team reflects the people that you're building for.
\n\nAMY: Exactly.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. How does that work? How does Compt accomplish that? Because I know early on I was doing nonprofits and I was a decent leader. But I struggle to get outside of myself, my own bubble if that makes sense. So, like, that was before I had kids. I had no idea what it meant to have kids and just the struggles and everything if you have kids. So, there's so many different things that I've learned over the years that, like, just people have their own struggles. So, how does Compt accomplish the diversity of a company?
\n\nAMY: So, it's so interesting you mentioned that. I was on a podcast the other day with somebody who was, like, "You know, we didn't really think about our benefits and how important they were." And then, the founder who was the person on the podcast, and he was like, "But then I had kids. And suddenly, I realized, and we had this amazing aha moment." I'm like, well, it's great you had the aha moment. But let's back it up and do this before the founder has children. Sometimes you need to recognize the entire team needs something different and try and support them.
\n\nMy frustration with the tools out there are there are tools that are like, hey, we're a DE&I platform. We will help you with that. You know, we've got a benefit for fertility. We've got a benefit for, you know, elder care. There's all kinds of benefits. These are great benefits, but they're also very, very specific in how they support an employee. And it's very small moment in time, usually.
\n\nWhereas with something like Compt, where we say, "Hey, we support family," your version of family, having children is very different from my version of family, where I don't have children, but we both have families. And we can both use that stipend in a way that is meaningful for us. What puts the employee back in charge, what matters in their lives, instead of the company trying to read everyone's mind, which is honestly a no-win situation for anyone. So, it just makes it very, very broad.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes. And I've been on both sides, obviously, as an employee, but also previously role of VP of Operations. And trying to design benefits packages that are appealing, and competitive, and fair is a challenging task. So --
\n\nAMY: It's impossible. It's impossible. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Very hard. And I'm curious what you found in the early stages of Compt that was surprising to you in the discovery process building the product.
\n\nAMY: So, for me, I mean, discovery was I am the buyer for this product. So, I wanted this about five years before I decided to go and build it. And I was talking to other finance and HR professionals going around going, "All right, are you feeling this exact same pain that I'm feeling? Because it is getting completely insurmountable."
\n\nWe were all being pitched all these different platforms and products. Everybody had something they wanted to sell through HR to help attract, and engage and retain talent and all the things, right? But there's no tracking. It's not taxed correctly. And ultimately, no matter what you bring in, maybe 2% to 3% of your team would use it. So, you're spending all this time and energy in putting all this love into wanting to support your team, and then nobody uses the stuff that you bring in because it just doesn't apply to them.
\n\nAnd so, I realized, like, my pivotal moment was, all right, none of this is working. I've been waiting five years for somebody to build it. Let's go build something that is completely vendor-agnostic. There's no vendors on this platform by design because everyone ultimately wants something different.
\n\nAnd, you know, through that process, we were, of course, pushed by many VCs who said, "Hey, build your marketplace, build your marketplace, you know, that's going to be your moat and your special sauce." And I said, "No, no, no, that's not what we're going to do here because that doesn't solve that problem." And we finally had the data to prove it, which is fantastic.
\n\nYou know, we actually did a sample of 8,700 people on our platform, and we watched them for a year. And said, "How many different vendors are these 8,700 people going to use?" Because that's the marketplace we'd have to build because we have 91% employee engagement. Nobody can beat us in the industry. We've got the highest employee engagement of any platform in our category. So, how many different vendors could 8,700 people use in that time period? Do you guys have any guesses how many they used in that time period to get to that engagement?
\n\nVICTORIA: Out of 8,700 vendors?
\n\nAMY: No, 8,700 employees. So, how many different vendors they used in that time period.
\n\nVICTORIA: Hmm, like, per employee, I could see maybe, like, 10? I don't know. Two?
\n\nAMY: We saw 27,000 different vendors used across all the employees, so 27,000 different unique vendors. So, on average, every employee wants three unique vendors that no one else is using.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh wow.
\n\nWILL: Wow.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, okay. [laughter] Right.
\n\nAMY: So, it's just you can't build that, I mean, you could build that marketplace, but nobody's going to visit that marketplace because nobody wants to scroll through 27,000 things. And so, it just keeps changing.
\n\nYou know, and I saw that even with the woman who started the company with me, you know, when she...we, of course, use Compt internally. And she started using her wellness stipend. You know, at first, she was doing 5Ks. So, she'd register for the race. She'd go train. She'd do all the things. Then she got pregnant and had a baby and started shifting over to prenatal vitamins, to Lamaze classes, to, you know, mommy yoga, things like that. Then once she had the baby, it shifted again.
\n\nAnd so, it allows for a company to flow with an employee's lifecycle without having to get into an employee's life stage and, "Hey, what do you need at this moment in time?" Employees can self-direct that, so it makes it easier for employees and a lot easier for companies who are not trying to...we don't want to map out every single moment of our employee's personal life. We shouldn't be involved in that. And so, this is a way to support them but also give them a little space too.
\n\nWILL: I absolutely love that because that is, yes, that is a flow. Like, before you have kids, it's, like, yes, I can go run these 5Ks; I can do this. When you have kids, it totally changes. Like, okay, what can I do with my kids? So, workout, or that's my away time. So, I love that it's an ebb and flow with the person. And they can pick their own thing, like --
\n\nAMY: Right. We're all adults.
\n\nWILL: Yes. [laughs]
\n\nAMY: I think I sat there going; why am I dictating someone's health and wellness regimen? I am not qualified for this on any stretch. Like, why am I dictating what somebody's mental health strategy should be? That's terrifying. You're adults. You work with your professionals. We'll support it.
\n\nWILL: Yes. I remember at one company I worked for; they had this gym that they had, you know, got a deal with. And I was so frustrated because I was like, that's, like, 45 minutes away from my house.
\n\nAMY: [laughs] Right.
\n\nWILL: It's a perk, but it means absolutely nothing to me. I can't use it. So yes, yeah. [laughs]
\n\nAMY: Well, and, like, not everybody wants to work, say...there was, you know, we see a lot of that is there's been a transition over time. COVID really changed that as people couldn't go to gyms, and companies shifted to stipends. But you may not want to work out with your co-workers, and that's okay, too. Like, it's okay to want to do your own thing and be in your own space, which is where we see this kind of decline of the, you know, on-site company gym, which, you know, some people just don't want to do that.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. So, I love that you stayed true to this problem that you found and you backed it up with data. So, you're like, here's clear data on, say, why those VCs' advice was bad [laughs] about the marketplace.
\n\nAMY: Ill-informed. They needed data to see otherwise. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Well, I'm curious about your experience going through fundraising and starting up for Compt with your background as a CFO and how that was for you.
\n\nAMY: It was...I naively thought it would be easier for me, and maybe it was because I had all this experience raising money as a CFO in all these prior companies. But the reality is that women receive less than 2% of all funding, even though we start 50% of the businesses. And if you look at, you know, Black female founders, they're receiving, like, 0.3, 0.5% of funding. Like, it's just...it's not nice out there.
\n\nYou know, on average, a lot of VCs are looking at 3,000, 4,000, or 5000 different companies a year and investing in 10. And so, the odds of getting funded are very, very low, which means that you're just going to experience a whole lot of unique situations as a female founder. I saw that you folks work with LOLA, which is fantastic. I'm a huge fan of LOLA and kind of what their founders put together. And I've heard some amazing things about the pitches that she's done for VCs and that she's just not shy about what she's building. And I really appreciate that.
\n\nIt's never a fun situation. And it gets easier the later stages because you have more metrics, and data, and all of that. And we ultimately found phenomenal investors that I'm very, very happy to have as part of our journey. But it's definitely...it's not pretty out there is the reality.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And I saw that you either attended or put on an event about the gender investment gap, which I think is what you just referred to there as well. So, I'm curious how that conversation went and if there were any insights about what the industry can do to promote more investment in women and people of color founders.
\n\nAMY: So, that's actually coming up August 10th, and so that's coming up in a few weeks that we're going to be hosting that. I'm actually part of a small group that is spearheading some legislation in Massachusetts to help change this funding dynamic for female founders, which I'm pretty excited about. And California also has some legislation they're looking at right now.
\n\nIn Mass, we're looking at how fair lending laws can apply to venture capital. There are laws on the books on how capital gets distributed when you look at the banking system. But there's virtually no regulation when you look at venture funding, and there's no accountability, and there's no metrics that anybody is being held to.
\n\nI don't believe that you know, just because I pitched a VC that they should be funding me, you know, it needs to be part of their thesis and all of those things. But when you see so much disparity in what is happening out there, bias is coming into play. And there needs to be something that helps level that playing field. And so, that's where legislation comes into play and helps change that dynamic. So, pretty excited about the legislation that's before both the Senate and the Mass State House, likely going to be heard this November. So, we're pretty excited about that.
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\n\nWILL: So, Amy, you're talking a lot about diversity, inclusion, and just biases, and things like that. You're doing a great job with it. Your product is perfect for that because it reaches so many different levels. And I just want to ask you, why are you so passionate about it? Why is this so important to you?
\n\nAMY: For me, personally, I am a lesbian founder. I am the only, you know, LGBTQ in many of my companies. And I'm always the, I mean, very frequently, the only woman in the boardroom, the only woman on the leadership team. That's not super comfortable, honestly. When you are having to fight for your place at the table, and you see things that could be done differently because you're bringing a different perspective, that, to me, is a missed opportunity for companies and for employees as well who, you know, there's amazing talent out there. If you're only looking at one flavor of talent, you're missing the opportunity to really build a world-class organization.
\n\nAnd so, to me, it's both the personal side where I want to work with the best people. I want to work with a lot of different perspectives. I want to work with people who are bringing things to the table that I haven't thought about. But also, making sure that we're creating an environment where those people can feel comfortable as well, and so people don't feel marginalized or tokenized and have the ability to really bring their best selves to work. That's really important to me.
\n\nIt's a reflection of the world around us. It's bringing out the best in all of us. And so, for me, that's the environment I want to create in my own company. And it's also what I want to help companies be able to foster within their companies because I think a lot of companies really do want that. They just don't know how to go about it. They don't have actual tools to support a diverse team. You pay for things for the people you have, and then you hire more people like the people you have. We want to be a tool to help them expand that very organically and make it a lot easier to support a broader perspective of people.
\n\nVICTORIA: I appreciate that. And it speaks to something you said earlier about 50% of the businesses are started by women. And so, if you're not investing in them, there's a huge market and huge potential and opportunity there that's just not --
\n\nAMY: The economic miss is in the trillions, is what's been estimated. Like, it's an absolute economic miss. I mean, you also have the statistics of what female-founded companies do. We tend to be more profitable. We tend to be more capital efficient. We tend to, you know, have better outcomes. It's just so the economics of it are there. It's just trying to get folks to understand where their biases are coming into play and funding things that may be a little outside their comfort zone.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. That's going to be a big project to undo all of that. So, each piece that works towards it to break it down, I think, is really important. And it seems like Compt is a great tool for companies to start working towards that, at least in the equity of their benefits, which is -- [laughs]
\n\nAMY: Exactly. Because, I mean, if people can't use a perk, then it's inequitable compensation. And if you have inequitable compensation, you're already going down that path. You end up with wage gaps, and then you end up with promotion gaps. And all these things feed into each other. So, we're just trying to chip away at one piece of the problem. There's lots of places that this needs to be adjusted and changed over time. But we want to at least chip away at that one piece where this piece of compensation can be equitable and support everyone.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I love that. I was looking at your LinkedIn. And it looks like you've been almost, later this year, maybe six years of Compt. What was some of the early traction? Like, how was it in the early days for you?
\n\nAMY: It was an interesting transition for me, going from CFO and COO over to the CEO role. That was easier in some ways than I thought it was going to be and harder in other ways. You know, on the easy side, I've already done fundraising. I understand how to write a business model, and look at financial plans, and make sure the concept is viable and all the things. But I also am not an engineer. I'm not a product designer.
\n\nAnd so needed to make sure we immediately surrounded ourselves with the right talent and the right help to make sure that we could build the right product, pull the things out of my brain that are conceptual but definitely not product design. No one wants me touching product design. I've been barred from all codebases in this company. They don't want me touching anything, with good reason. And so, making sure that we have those right people to build and design the software in a way that functionally makes sense.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think that is great that...I laughed when you said that you are barred from touching any of the code. [laughs] It's like, you're able to...I think a strong leader recognizes when other people have the expertise and makes space for them to do their best work. I also see that, at the same time, you've been a mentor with the MassChallenge group. And I'm curious if you have a most frequent piece of advice that you give to founders and people starting out building great products.
\n\nAMY: The biggest piece of advice, I think, is to make sure you're taking care of yourself through this process. It's an exhausting process to build a company. And there's always way more that you should be doing every day than you can possibly get done. And if you just completely absorb yourself in it, you're going to end up burning out. So, making sure that you rest, that you still make time to exercise and to move, and that you spend time with family. All of those things, I think, are really, really important. That's been part of our core tenets.
\n\nFrom day one, I said, "No more than 40 to 45 hours a week." It doesn't mean I'm not thinking about this business far more than 45 hours a week, but I'm not going to sit behind a computer that many hours in a week because I will burn out. And if I'm out and I'm reading something, or I'm, you know, going for a walk, I'm going to have moments of inspiration because I can actually have those creative thoughts firing when I'm not just putting out fires.
\n\nAnd so, I think that's really, really important for founders to make sure they take that time and allow their brains to clear a little bit so that they can build more efficiently, build faster, and have really good critical reasoning skills.
\n\nWILL: I love that you not only have the product to, you know, help taking time off, but you also are preaching it per se, like, take time off. Don't work more than 40-45 hours. Like, take care of yourself. So, I love that advice that you're giving is right in the message with your product. So, I love it.
\n\nAMY: Thank you. I do hammer home with this team. What we build is obviously very, very important to me, but how we build this company is equally important. We spend just as much time thinking about how we're building and designing this company internally as we do about our product because they need to be a virtuous cycle between the two, quite frankly. And so, if they aren't aligned, we're going to fail.
\n\nWILL: Definitely. Wow. Awesome. What does success look like for you and Compt in the next, you know, six months to a year?
\n\nAMY: For us, it's really about reaching as many people as possible. So, how do we have an impact on as many lives as possible and help people be able to access this piece of their compensation? What is interesting right now is we're in a really interesting moment. The tech industry is going through...shall we call it an awakening? Where money is tighter. There's been some layoffs. You know, it's just a very different world in tech right now. And everybody's in a little bit of a holding pattern to figure out, okay, what's next?
\n\nWhat we're seeing across our portfolio of companies is that there's a lot of industries that are, for the first time, really thinking about how do we retain folks? How do we think about hiring in a new way? So, industries like construction and manufacturing. Industries that never had employee kind of lifestyle benefits or perks they're taking a look at that because unemployment is so, so low.
\n\nAnd so, for the first time ever, we have the ability to have an impact on groups that never had access to professional development, to wellness, to things like that. And that's really exciting because you can have such a huge, impactful moment where people have just been without for so long. And so, that's pretty exciting for us.
\n\nVICTORIA: You're touching upon a topic that I've thought about before, where in the tech industry, we're used to having a lot of benefits and perks and that not every industry is the same way. So, I'm curious; you mentioned construction and some other groups that are looking to adopt more of these benefits because unemployment is so low. I'm curious, like, if there are any patterns or things that you see, like, specific industries that are more interested than others, or what's going on there?
\n\nAMY: Our portfolio of tech companies are only about...they're less than 40% of our customers, actually. So, a relatively low percentage of our customers come from the tech industry. What we find is that healthcare systems this is really important. As you're thinking about how you're going to retain nursing staff, it is incredibly difficult. And so, we see a lot of movement in the healthcare space. We see a lot of movement, again, across manufacturing and construction, you know, financial services.
\n\nPretty much anybody who is struggling to hire and is worried about retaining is trying to figure out what's my strategy? How do I do this in the least expensive way possible but reach everyone? Because those employee engagement metrics are so consistently important to look at. And most platforms and things that you could be doing out there are going to give you a 2% to 3% utilization. So, it's very, very low.
\n\nYou know, wellness is by far the most common use case we see companies putting in place. It's good for employees. It's good for the employer. That's by far the most important or the most common. But we also see things like family, and just more of a whole well-being kind of concept as well, so beyond wellness, so allowing for that broader reach.
\n\nWe're also seeing industries where people are starting to age out. So, we've got five generations at work right now. There's industries where folks have historically stayed forever. You know, you've got the people who have been there 20-30 years. Well, those same industries are now sitting there going, all right, how do I get the next two generations to come in here? Because it's such an old-guard and old approach. We've got to change things up. And so, we're seeing a pretty big cultural shift happen within a lot of these more nascent industries.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. I can definitely see how that would be tough going from, you know, you said five generations are currently in the workforce?
\n\nAMY: Yep.
\n\nWILL: I didn't even think about that. Wow.
\n\nAMY: Yeah, you got a lot of different parts of the life cycle. You know, think about professional development. Professional development for a 22-year-old is very different from professional development for a 65-year-old. But both are in the workplace, and both want to keep learning. It's just what your needs are and what you need to learn. And how you want to learn is going to be very, very different.
\n\nWILL: Wow. So true. I love how you're talking about your leadership and just the way you lead. I can just hear it in what you're saying. What are some of your core values that drive you every day?
\n\nAMY: One of the big ones, and it probably goes back to, you know, I'm sure, birth placement, whatever. I'm an oldest child, all the things that come with being an oldest child. But fairness is a really big one for me. And so, it's thinking about how we apply that as a company, so equitable compensation falls under that. Making sure that we've got a team that is balanced and diverse is really important to me.
\n\nYou know, thinking, you know, our core values are balance and belonging. That runs through absolutely everything that we do and is core and central to it. Because, again, how we build this company is just as important to me as what we're building. And so, making sure that we hold true to those values is critical because we have amazing people, and they need to feel supported as well.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, that really comes through in everything that you say and that we've talked about so far today, and I really appreciate that. And I'm curious if you could go back in time to when you first started Compt and tell yourself any piece of advice or information; what would you say?
\n\nAMY: That piece of advice has changed over time; I will tell you that. The one that is most recent for me is really because we're an HR tech platform, and we service, you know, an entire organization, is really thinking about how you support different industries at different moments in time, the concept of product-market fit. When you're that type of a platform, which there aren't many, there's not many platforms that sit across an entire organization, but compensation is one of them. You need to be thinking about which industries are struggling to hire, which are struggling to retain at this moment in time.
\n\nAnd so, I don't think there's one place, like, hey, we have product-market fit, now we can scale. I think that's a misnomer for our part of the HR tech space. And so, it's constant experimentation on go-to-market strategy and constant kind of adjustment as markets ebb and flow over time.
\n\nWILL: What is some of your biggest hurdles right now or even in the future that you can see coming?
\n\nAMY: If I had a crystal ball, life would definitely be easier. I'd love to know when this economic cycle is going to shift and, you know when things get a little bit easier for companies. You know, HR leaders and finance leaders are not having the most fun at this moment in time. They're being tasked with making everybody happy but on very small budgets, and so they're really challenged with that. And they're really burnt out, and they're exhausted. So, I'm looking forward to a shift so when people can get back to feeling a little bit physically better. But also, it just helps navigate a market and be better able to support your employees.
\n\nVICTORIA: I've been thinking about that question recently, what I would tell my past self, and I think it's mostly, like, food related.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nAMY: Ooh, interesting.
\n\nVICTORIA: Use better vinegars, like, invest in fancier olive oil. [laughs]
\n\nAMY: So, my new luxury pro-tip is you buy a $7 bunch of eucalyptus at the grocery store, and you tie it above your shower head. I'm not kidding; you will feel like you're at a spa. It costs $7. I learned it because I was at some fancy resort. One of my investors, you know, paid for us to go to a conference that I was not paying for. And I was like, that is genius. You suddenly feel like you are in someplace fancy, and it was seven bucks. It's amazing.
\n\nWILL: Yes.
\n\nVICTORIA: That sounds incredible. I'm going to do that.
\n\nWILL: Same.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nVICTORIA: [inaudible 34:35] buy some. No, it's so good. Do you have any questions for us, Amy?
\n\nAMY: Yeah. I mean, what trends are you seeing in the market right now? Like, what types of companies are being developed? Where do you see growth happening in the market?
\n\nVICTORIA: That's probably a better question for me. As a managing director, I spend more time networking and going to events. And it's interesting being in San Diego. There's a big biotech startup here. So, I went to an EvoNexus Demo Day and saw the things that people were using. And there seemed to be a trend of using AI and machine learning to create better health outcomes, whether that's for predictors for which people will respond better to anti-cancer drugs, or, you know, how do we monitor the release of drugs for someone's system who's, you know, going through methadone in therapy. So, it's really interesting.
\n\nI think that you know, you mentioned that there's not the same amount of money in the tech market, but I think there is still a lot of work being done to solve real problems that people have. So yeah, I'm really curious to see those types of projects and which ones are going to be successful, and how much the AI trend will really fade out. Like, clearly, in some use cases, you can see how beneficial it could be. And other times, it seems like it's kind of just like slapped on there for --
\n\nAMY: Agreed.
\n\nVICTORIA: Marketing purposes, so...
\n\nAMY: That's really just a database query. It's not AI. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. [laughs] It's interesting because, you know, I just had lunch with a bunch of other CTOs in San Diego, and we were talking about AI, and some of the inherent risks of it, and the damage it can cause. And I always like to bring it back to, like, there are some people who are already harmed by these trends. And we have to work around that. Like, there is some, you know, greater supposed existential threat with AI that I think is rather unlikely. But if we think about that too much and not focus on the current harm that's being done, then that's, you know, more dangerous than the other one.
\n\nAMY: Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, there's definitely, I mean, even just with facial recognition and how that's applied and what that's used for. I mean, any software that is built with people has bias. And so, whatever biases they're bringing into it is the bias that's going to exist in the software. And so, there's...we already are starting from, you know, going back to our earlier conversation, if companies are not diverse and not building for really diverse perspectives, they're inherently going to build bias software, whether or not, I mean, I don't think that's anybody's intention. But that's what's going to happen because you just didn't think about things you didn't know.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And, of course, I'm here in Southern California. There's the strikes for the actors and writers' strike happening a few hours north of us. And they were actually, you know, for some actors, signing away their rights to their likeness.
\n\nAMY: Wow.
\n\nVICTORIA: And then they could make an AI image and --
\n\nAMY: Wow. You could just create an entire movie with somebody's image and dub in a voice, and suddenly you don't need actors.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And it's, of course, more often non-White actors and models who are being replaced. And so, I think that's a very interesting trend that people may not have thought about yet.
\n\nAMY: Fascinating.
\n\nVICTORIA: So yeah, I mean, having people on your leadership team who are thinking about these [laughs] different types of issues, like, yeah, I think it's really important. And then also, from, like, a data privacy perspective, all the laws that are coming out and that have come out. And I think that some founders and CTOs are really struggling with how to comply and protect everyone's data that way.
\n\nAMY: No. It's something we think about a lot because we have the potential to have access to a lot of employee data. We take a very minimalist approach stated, not a big data play. That's not what we're here for. That's not what we're trying to do, this mountain of data on people, and then we'll figure out how to monetize it. We want to build something a little bit different. And so using only data that needs to be used so that we can truly support people with what our actual goal and aim is, rather than having that be a secondary cause.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And I wanted to ask you about that actually because you have SOC 2 and GDPR compliance. And it's a topic that I think a lot of founders know that security is important, but it can be a significant investment. So, I'm curious your trade-offs and your timing for when you went for those compliance frameworks.
\n\nAMY: We went early for it. I mean, so our platform, I mean, we're integrated with payroll platforms. We're touching employee data. So, we went for it early because we knew that it was going to be important, and it's a lot easier to do it before you make a mess than it is after the fact. I've done SOC 2 compliance in two prior companies. It's not fun. It is not my most fun thing that I've ever done.
\n\nFortunately, there are geniuses out there who built platforms to make this very, very easy now. We use a platform called Vanta that is absolutely incredible, made it super easy to get SOC 2 compliant, go through our audits, do all the things, so that, at least, is a lot easier. But it was something that we needed the funding to invest in. It's not inexpensive.
\n\nBut we knew that it was going to be critical because people need to feel that their data is secure and that you know what you're doing, and that you're not just kind of flying by the seat of your pants. There's a lot of tech companies that operate on, we'll figure out the tax, or we'll figure out the law. We'll figure out the compliance later. And that's been a stated part of their mission. That's just not the way I'm going to operate. And that doesn't work very well when you're dealing with HR, quite frankly, or finance because we have to comply with laws. So, getting ahead of that early was part of our strategy.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. Your finance background making it clear what the legal implications are. [laughs]
\n\nAMY: Exactly. Like, I'm not messing around with the IRS. Nobody wants to get audited by the IRS. It's not fun. Let's just keep things tax compliant. Chances are you're not going to get audited by the IRS. But if you are a tech company, if you do want to go public, if you do want to be acquired likely from a public company, you have to have these things in order because otherwise, it's coming off your purchase price or your stock price because you've got disclosures you've got to put out there, so little hidden, nasty gotchas.
\n\nAnd it can be a six-year lookback period. So, you're like, oh, I'll worry about it later. Six years is a long time. And if you start messing around with that, it gets very, very expensive to clean up. So, just do it right from the beginning. You know, the same way you're doing payroll correctly now, invest a little bit, and it makes it a lot easier.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I agree. And I think the tooling that's out there makes it a little bit easier; at least then, you know you have the confidence that your data is protected. Especially if you're a non-technical founder, I can imagine that makes you feel better that things are the way they should be.
\n\nAMY: Exactly. Somebody has looked at this thing. Somebody is making sure that it's working the way it's supposed to. You know, that definitely helps when you're a non-technical founder, or just not a tax expert, or a legal expert, you know, around these things. It's not even the technical founders that have to worry about it. Data comes in all kinds of forms.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
\n\nAMY: This has been a fantastic conversation. I've really enjoyed it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, thank you.
\n\nWILL: Same.
\n\nVICTORIA: I've enjoyed it as well. I really appreciate you taking the time.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nWILL: And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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Sean O'Connor is the Director of Engineering at Datadog. Datadog is the essential monitoring and security platform for cloud applications.
\n\nSean discusses his transition from an individual contributor to management and shares why he chose Datadog, emphasizing the appeal of high-scale problems and the real business nature of the company. They delve into the importance of performance management and observability and cover the cultural and technical challenges Sean faces in managing a diverse, geographically spread team, and discuss the transition at Datadog from a decentralized model to more centralized platforms, the corresponding changes in both technical strategies and people management, and what excites him about Datadog's future, including the integration of security offerings into developers' daily experiences, and the evolution of Kubernetes and internal build and release tooling.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido.
\n\nWILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. And with us today is Sean O'Connor. He is the Director of Engineering at Datadog. Datadog is the essential monitoring and security platform for cloud applications. Sean, thank you for joining us.
\n\nSEAN: Hi, thanks for having me on.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I'm super excited to get to talking with you about everything cloud, and DevOps, and engineering. But why don't we first start with just a conversation about what's going on in your life? Is there any exciting personal moment coming up for you soon?
\n\nSEAN: Yeah, my wife and I are expecting our first kiddo in the next few weeks, so getting us prepared for that as we can and trying to get as much sleep as we can. [laughs]
\n\nWILL: Get as much sleep as you can now, so...[laughs] I have a question around that. When you first found out that you're going to be a dad, what was your feeling? Because I remember the feeling that I had; it was a mixed reaction of just everything. So, I just wanted to see what was your reaction whenever you found out that you're going to be a dad for the first time.
\n\nSEAN: Yeah, I was pretty excited. My wife and I had been kind of trying for this for a little while. We're both kind of at the older end for new parents in our late 30s. So, yeah, excited but definitely, I don't know, maybe a certain amount of, I don't know about fear but, you know, maybe just concerned with change and how different life will be, but mostly excitement and happiness. [laughs]
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I remember the excitement and happiness. But I also remember, like, wait, I don't know exactly what to do in this situation. And what about the situations that I have no idea about and things like that? So, I will tell you, kids are resilient. You're going to do great as a dad.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nSEAN: Yep. Yeah, definitely; I think I feel much more comfortable about the idea of being a parent now than I may have been in my 20s. But yeah, definitely, the idea of being responsible for and raising a whole other human is intimidating. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: I think the fact that you're worried about it is a good sign [laughs], right?
\n\nSEAN: I hope so. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Like, you understand that it's difficult. You're going to be a great parent just by the fact that you understand it's difficult and there's a lot of work ahead. So, I think I'm really excited for you. And I'm glad we get to talk to you at this point because probably when the episode comes out, you'll be able to listen to it with your new baby in hand. So...
\n\nWILL: Good. Excited for it. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, love that. Well, great. Well, why don't you tell me a little bit more about your other background, your professional background? What brought you to the role you're into today?
\n\nSEAN: Yeah. Well, like we mentioned in the beginning; currently, I'm a Director of Engineering at Datadog. I run our computing cloud team. It's responsible for all of our Kubernetes infrastructure, as well as kind of all the tooling for dealing with the cloud providers that we run on and as well as kind of [inaudible 02:54] crypto infrastructure.
\n\nWithin Datadog, I've always been in management roles though I've kind of bounced around. I've been here for about five and a half years. So, before this, I was running a data store infrastructure team. Before that, when I first came in, I was running the APM product team, kind of bounced around between product and infra. And that's kind of, I guess, been a lot of the story of much of my career is wearing lots of different hats and kind of bouncing around between kind of infrastructure-focused roles and product-focused roles.
\n\nSo, before this, I was running the back-end engineering and DevOps teams at Bitly. So, I was there for about five and a half years, started there originally as a software engineer. And before that, a lot of early-stage startups and consulting doing whatever needed doing, and getting to learn about lots of different kind of industries and domains, which is always fun. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. So, you had that broad range of experience coming from all different areas of operations in my mind, which is, like, security and infrastructure, and now working your way into a management position. What was the challenge for you in making that switch from being such a strong individual contributor into an effective manager?
\n\nSEAN: Sure. You know, I think certainly there is a lot of kind of the classic challenges of learning to let go but still staying involved, right? You know, as a manager, if you're working on critical path tasks hands-on yourself, that's probably not a good sign. [laughs] On the other hand, if you come, like, completely divorced from what your team is doing, especially as, like, a team lead level kind of manager, you know, that's not great either. So, figuring that balancing act definitely was a bit tricky for me.
\n\nSimilarly, I think time management and learning to accept that, especially as you get into, like, further steps along in your career that, like, you know, it's not even a question of keeping all the balls in the air, but more figuring out, like, what balls are made out of rubber and which ones are made out of glass, and maybe keeping those ones in the air. [laughs] So, just a lot of those kind of, like, you know, prioritization and figuring out, like, what the right level of involvement and context is, is definitely the eternal learning, I think, for me. [laughs]
\n\nWILL: I remember whenever I was looking to change jobs, kind of my mindset was I wanted to work at thoughtbot more because of the values. And I wanted to learn and challenge myself and things like that. And it was so much more, but those were some of the main items that I wanted to experience in my next job. So, when you changed, and you went from Bitly to Datadog, what was that thing that made you say, I want to join Datadog?
\n\nSEAN: Yeah, that was definitely an interesting job search and transition. So, at that point in time, I was living in New York. I was looking to stay in New York. So, I was kind of talking to a bunch of different companies. Both from personal experience and from talking to some friends, I wasn't super interested in looking at, like, working at mostly, like, the super big, you know, Google, Amazon, Meta type of companies. But also, having done, like, super early stage, you know, like, seed, series A type of companies, having played that game, I wasn't in a place in my life to do that either. [laughs] So, I was looking kind of in between that space.
\n\nSo, this would have been in 2018. So, I was talking to a lot of, like, series A and series B-type companies. And most of them were, like, real businesses. [laughs] Like, they may not be profitable yet, but, like, they had a very clear idea of how they would get there and, like, what that would look like. And so, that was pleasant compared to some past points in my career.
\n\nBut a lot of them, you know, I was effectively doing, like, automation of human processes, which is important. It has value. But it means that, like, realistically, this company will never have more than 50 servers. And when I worked at Bitly, I did have a taste for kind of working in those high-scale, high-availability type environments.
\n\nSo, Datadog initially was appealing because it kind of checked all those boxes of, you know, very high-scale problems, high availability needs, a very real business. [laughs] This is before Datadog had gone public. And then, as I started to talk to them and got to know them, I also really liked a lot of kind of the culture and all the people I interacted with. So, it became a very clear choice very quickly as that process moved along.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, a very real business. Datadog is one of the Gartner's Magic leaders for APM and observability in the industry. And I understand you're also one of the larger SaaS solutions running Kubernetes, right?
\n\nSEAN: Yep. Yeah, at this point. Five years ago, that story was maybe a little bit different. [laughs] But yeah, no, no, we definitely have a pretty substantial Kubernetes suite that we run everything on top of. And we get the blessings and curses of we get some really cool problems to work on, but there's also a lot of problems that we come across that when we talk to kind of peers in the industry about kind of how they're trying to solve them, they don't have answers yet either. [laughs] So, we get to kind of figure out a lot of that kind of early discovery games. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. I like how exciting and growing this industry is around kind of your compute and monitoring the performance of your applications. I wonder if you could kind of speak to our audience a little bit, who may not have a big technical background, about just why it's important to think about performance management and observability early on in your application.
\n\nSEAN: There can be a few pieces there. One of the bigger ones, I think, is thinking about that kind of early and getting used to working with that kind of tooling early in a project or a product. I think it has an analogous effect to, like, thinking about, like, compounding interest in, like, a savings account or investing or something like that. In that, by having those tools available early on and having that visibility available early on, you can really both initially get a lot of value and just kind of understanding kind of what's happening with your system and very quickly troubleshoot problems and make sure things are running efficiently.
\n\nBut then that can help get to a place where you get to that, like, flywheel effect as you're kind of building your product of, as you're able to solve things quickly, that means you have more time to invest in other parts of the product, and so on and so forth. So, yeah, it's one of those things where kind of the earlier you can get started on that, the more that benefit gets amplified over time.
\n\nAnd thankfully, with Datadog and other offerings like that now, you can get started with that relatively quickly, right? You're not having to necessarily make the choice of, like, oh, can I justify spending a week, a month, whatever, setting up all my own infrastructure for this, as opposed to, you know, plugging in a credit card and getting going right away? And not necessarily starting with everything from day zero but getting started with something and then being able to build on that definitely can be a worthwhile trade-off. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. And I'm curious your perspective, Will, as a developer on our Lift Off team, which is really about the services around that time when you want to start taking it really seriously. Like, you've built an app [laughs]. You know it's a viable product, and there's a market for it. And just, like, how you think about observability when you're doing your app building.
\n\nWILL: The approach I really take is, like, what is the end goal? I'm currently on a project right now that we came in later than normal. We're trying to work through that.
\n\nSEAN: I haven't come from, you know, that kind of consulting and professional services and support kind of place. I'm curious about, like, what, if any, differences or experiences do you have, like, in that context of, like, how do you use your observability tools or, like, what value they have as opposed to maybe more, like, straight product development?
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. So, we recently partnered with, you know, our platform engineering team worked with the Lift Off team to create a product from scratch. And we built in observability tools with Prometheus, and Grafana, and Sentry so that the developers could instrument their app and build metrics around the performance in the way they expected the application to work so that when it goes live and meets real users, they're confident their users are able to actually use the app with a general acceptable level of latency and other things that are really key to the functionality of the app.
\n\nAnd so, I think that the interesting part was, with the founders who don't have a background in IT operations or application monitoring and performance, it sort of makes sense. But it's still maybe a stretch to really see the full value of that, especially when you're just trying to get the app out the door.
\n\nSEAN: Nice.
\n\nVICTORIA: [chuckles] That's my answer. What kind of challenges do you have in your role managing this large team in a very competitive company, running a ton of Kubernetes clusters? [laughs] What's your challenges in your director of engineering role there?
\n\nSEAN: You know, it's definitely a mix of kind of, like, technical or strategic challenges there, as well as people challenges. On the technical and strategic side, the interesting thing for our team right now is we're in the middle of a very interesting transition. Still, today, the teams at Datadog work in very much a 'You build it, you run it' kind of model, right? So, teams working on user-facing features in addition to, like, you know, designing those features and writing the code for that, they're responsible for deploying that code, offering the services that code runs within, being on call for that, so on and so forth.
\n\nAnd until relatively recently, that ownership was very intense to the point where some teams maybe even had their own build and release processes. They were running their own data stores. And, like, that was very valuable for much of our history because that let those teams to be very agile and not have to worry about, like, convincing the entire company to change if they needed to make some kind of change.
\n\nBut as we've grown and as, you know, we've kind of taken on a lot more complexity in our environment from, you know, running across more providers, running across more regions, taking on more of regulatory concerns, to kind of the viability of running everything entirely [inaudible 12:13] for those product teams, it has become much harder. [laughs]
\n\nYou start to see a transition where previously the infrastructure teams were much more acting as subject matter experts and consultants to, now, we're increasingly offering more centralized platforms and offerings that can offload a lot of that kind of complexity and the stuff that isn't the core of what the other product-focused teams are trying to do.
\n\nAnd so, as we go through that change, it means internally, a lot of our teams, and how we think about our roles, and how we go about doing our work, changes from, like, a very, you know, traditional reliability type one on one consultation and advising type role to effectively internal product development and internal platform development. So, that's a pretty big both mindset and practice shift. [laughs] So, that's one that we're kind of evolving our way through.
\n\nAnd, of course, as what happens to kind of things, like, you still have to do all the old stuff while you're doing the new thing. [laughs] You don't get to just stop and just do the new thing. So, that's been an interesting kind of journey and one that we're always kind of figuring out as we go. That is a lot of kind of what I focus on.
\n\nYou know, people wise, you know, we have an interesting aim of...There's about 40 people in my org. They are spread across EMEA and North America with kind of, let's say, hubs in New York and Paris. So, with that, you know, you have a pretty significant time zone difference and some non-trivial cultural differences. [laughs] And so, you know, making sure that everybody is still able to kind of work efficiently, and communicate effectively, and collaborate effectively, while still working within all those constraints is always an ongoing challenge. [laughs]
\n\nWILL: Yeah, you mentioned the different cultures, the different types of employees you have, and everyone is not the same. And there's so many cultures, so many...whatever people are going through, you as a leader, how do you navigate through that? Like, how do you constantly challenge yourself to be a better leader, knowing that not everyone can be managed the same way, that there's just so much diversity, probably even in your company among your employees?
\n\nSEAN: I think a lot of it starts from a place of listening and paying attention to kind of just see where people are happy, where they feel like they have unmet needs. As an example, I moved from that last kind of data store-focused team to this computing cloud team last November.
\n\nAnd so, as part of that move, probably for the first two or three months that I was in the role, I wasn't particularly driving much in the way of changes or setting much of a vision beyond what the team already had, just because as the new person coming in, it's usually kind of hard to have a lot of credibility and/or even just have the idea of, like, you know, like you're saying, like, what different people are looking for, or what they need, how they will respond best.
\n\nI just spend a lot of time just talking to people, getting to know the team, building those relationships, getting to know those people, getting to know those groups. And then, from there, figuring out, you know, both where the kind of the high priority areas where change or investment is needed. But then also figuring out, yeah, kind of based on all that, what's the right way to go about that with the different groups? Because yeah, it's definitely isn't a one size fits all solution.
\n\nBut for me, it's always kind of starting from a place of listening and understanding and using that to develop, I guess, empathy for the people involved and understanding their perspectives and then figuring it out from there. I imagine–I don't know, but I imagine thoughtbot's a pretty distributed company. How do you all kind of think about some of those challenges of just navigating people coming from very different contexts?
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I was going to ask Victoria that because Victoria is one of the leaders of our team here at thoughtbot. So, Victoria, what are your thoughts on it?
\n\nVICTORIA: I have also one of the most distributed teams at thoughtbot because we do offer 24/7 support to some clients. And we cover time zones from the Pacific through West Africa. So, we just try to create a lot of opportunities for people to engage, whether it's remotely, especially offering a lot of virtual engagement and social engagement remotely. But then also, offering some in-person, whether it's a company in-person event, or encouraging people to engage with their local community and trying to find conferences, meetups, events that are relevant to us as a business, and a great opportunity for them to go and get some in-person interaction. So, I think then encouraging them to bring those ideas back.
\n\nAnd, of course, thoughtbot is known for having just incredible remote async communication happening all the time. It's actually almost a little oppressive to keep up with, to be honest, [laughs] but I love it. There's just a lot of...there's GitHub issues. There's Slack communications. There's, like, open messages. And people are really encouraged to contribute to the conversation and bring up any idea and any problem they're having, and actively add to and modify our company policies and procedures so that we can do the best work with each other and know how to work with each other, and to put out the best products.
\n\nI think that's key to having that conversation, especially for a company that's as big as Datadog and has so many clients, and has become such a leader in this metrics area. Being able to listen within your company and to your clients is probably going to set you up for success for any, like, tech leadership role [laughs].
\n\nI'm curious, what are you most excited about now that you've been in the role for a little while? You've heard from a lot of people within the company. Can you share anything in your direction in the next six months or a year that you're super excited about?
\n\nSEAN: So, there's usually kind of probably two sides to that question of kind of, like, from a product and business standpoint and from an internal infrastructure standpoint, given that's where my day-to-day focus is. You know, on the product side, one thing that's been definitely interesting to watch in my time at Datadog is we really made the transition from kind of, like, a point solution type product to much more of a platform.
\n\nFor context, when I joined Datadog, I think logs had just gone GA, and APM was in beta, I think. So, we were just starting to figure out, like, how we expand beyond the initial infrastructure metrics product. And, obviously, at this point, now we have a whole, you know, suite of offerings. And so, kind of the opportunities that come with that, as far as both different spaces that we can jump into, and kind of the value that we can provide by having all those different capabilities play together really nicely, is exciting and is cool.
\n\nLike, you know, one of the things that definitely lit an interesting light bulb for me was talking to some of the folks working on our newer security offerings and them talking about how, obviously, you want to meet, you know, your normal requirements in that space, so being able to provide the visibility that, you know, security teams are looking for there.
\n\nBut also, figuring out how we integrate that information into your developers' everyday experience so that they can have more ownership over that aspect of the systems that they're building and make everybody's job easier and more efficient, right? Instead of having, you know, the nightmare spreadsheet whenever a CVE comes out and having some poor TPM chase half the company to get their libraries updated, you know, being able to make that visible in the product where people are doing their work every day, you know, things like that are always kind of exciting opportunities.
\n\nOn the internal side, we're starting to think about, like, what the next major evolution of our kind of Kubernetes and kind of internal build and release tooling looks like. Today, a lot of kind of how teams interact with our Kubernetes infrastructure is still pretty raw. Like, they're working directly with specific Kubernetes clusters, and they are exposed to all the individual Kubernetes primitives, which is very powerful, but it's also a pretty steep learning curve. [laughs]
\n\nAnd for a lot of teams, it ends up meaning that there's lots of, you know, knobs that they have to know what they do. But at the end of the day, like, they're not getting a lot of benefit from that, right? There's more just opportunity for them to accidentally put themselves in a bad place. So, we're starting to figure out, like, higher level abstractions and offerings to simplify how all that for teams look like.
\n\nSo, we're still a bit early days in working through that, but it's exciting to figure out, like, how we can still give teams kind of the flexibility and the power that they need but make those experiences much easier and not have to have them become Kubernetes experts just to deploy a simple process. And, yes, so there's some lots of fun challenges in there. [laughs]
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\n\nWILL: I have a question around your experience. So, you've been a developer around 20 years. What has been your experience over that 20 years or about of the growth in this market? Because I can only imagine what the market was, you know, in the early 2000s versus right now because I still remember...I still have nightmares of dial-up, dial tone tu-tu-tu. No one could call you, stuff like that. So, what has been your experience, just seeing the market grow from where you started?
\n\nSEAN: Sure, yeah. I think probably a lot of the biggest pieces of it are just seeing the extent to which...I want to say it was Cory Doctorow, but I'm not sure who actually originally coined the idea, but the idea that, you know, software is eating the world, right? Like, eventually, to some degree, every company becomes a software company because software ends up becoming involved in pretty much everything that we as a society do.
\n\nSo, definitely seeing the progression of that, I think, over that time period has been striking, you know, especially when I was working in more consulting contexts and working more in companies and industries where like, you know, the tech isn't really the focus but just how much that, you know, from an engineering standpoint, relatively basic software can fundamentally transform those businesses and those industries has definitely been striking.
\n\nAnd then, you know, I think from a more individual perspective, seeing as, you know, our tools become more sophisticated and easier to access, just seeing how much of a mixed bag that has become [laughs]. And just kind of the flavor of, like, you know, as more people have more powerful tools, that can be very enabling and gives voice to many people. But it also means that the ability of an individual or a small group to abuse those tools in ways that we're maybe not fully ready to deal with as a society has been interesting to see how that's played out.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. I think you bring up some really great points there. And it reminds me of one of my favorite quotes is that, like, the future is here—it's just not evenly distributed. [laughs] And so, in some communities that I go to, everyone knows what Kubernetes is; everyone knows what DevOps is. It's kind of, like, old news. [laughs] And then, some people are still just like, "What?" [laughs].
\n\nIt's interesting to think about that and think about the implications on your last point about just how dangerous the supply chain is in building software and how some of these abstractions and some of these things that just make it so easy to build applications can also introduce a good amount of risk into your product and into your business, right? So, I wonder if you can tell me a little bit more about your perspective on security and DevSecOps and what founders might be thinking about to protect their IP and their client's data in their product.
\n\nSEAN: That one is interesting and tricky in that, like, we're in a little bit of, like, things are better and worse than they ever have been before [laughs], right? Like, there is a certain level of, I think, baseline knowledge and competency that I think company leaders really just have to have now, part of, like, kind of table stakes, which can definitely be challenging, and that, like, that probably was much less, if even the case, you know, 10-20 years ago in a lot of businesses.
\n\nAs an example, right? Like, obviously, like if it's a tech-focused company, like, that can be a thing. But, like, if you're running a plumbing business with a dozen trucks, let's say, like, 20 years ago, you probably didn't have to think that much about data privacy and data security. But, like, now you're almost certainly using some kind of electronic system to kind of manage all your customer records, and your job scheduling, and all that kind of stuff. So, like, now, that is something that's a primary concern for your business.
\n\nOn the flip side of that, I think there is much better resources, and tools, and practices available out there. I forget the name of the tool now. But I remember recently, I was working with a company on the ISO long string of numbers certifications that you tend to want to do when you're handling certain types of data. There was a tool they were able to work with that basically made it super easy for them to, like, gather all the evidence for that and whatnot, in a way where, like, you know, in the past, you probably just had to hire a compliance person to know what you had to do and how to present that.
\n\nBut now, you could just sign up for a SaaS product. And, like, obviously, it can't just do it for you. Like, it's about making your policies. But it still gave you enough support where if you're, like, bootstrapping a company, like, yeah, you probably don't need to hire a specialist to [inaudible 25:08], which is a huge deal.
\n\nYou know, similarly, a lot of things come much safer by default. When you think about, like, the security on something like an iPhone, or an iPad, or an Android device, like, just out of the box, that's light-years ahead of whatever Windows PC you were going to buy ten years ago. [laughs] And so, that kind of gives you a much better starting place. But some interesting challenges that come with that, right? And that we do now, literally, every person on the planet is walking around with microphones and cameras and all kinds of sensors on them. It's an interesting balance, I think.
\n\nSimilarly, I'm curious how you all think about kind of talking with your clients and your customers about this because I'm sure you all have a non-trivial amount of education to do there. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, definitely. And I think a lot of it comes in when we have clients who are very early founders, and they don't have a CTO or a technical side of their business, and advising them on exactly what you laid out. Like, here's the baseline. Like, here's where you want to start from. We generally use the CIS controls, this internet for internet security. It puts out a really great tool set, too, for some things you were mentioning earlier. Let's figure out how to report and how to identify all of the things that we're supposed to be doing. It could be overwhelming. It's a lot.
\n\nLike, in my past role as VP of Operations at Pluribus Digital, I was responsible for helping our team continue to meet our...we had three different ISO long number certifications [laughs]. We did a CMMI as well, which has come up a few times in my career. And they give you about a couple of hundreds of controls that you're supposed to meet. It's in very kind of, like, legalese that you have to understand. And that's a pretty big gap to solve for someone who doesn't have the technical experience to start.
\n\nLike, what you were saying, too, that it's more dangerous and more safer than it has been before. So, if we make choices for those types of clients in very safe, trusted platforms, then they're going to be set up for success and not have to worry about those details as much. And we kind of go forward with confidence that if they are going to have to come up against compliance requirements or local state regulations, which are also...there's more of those every day, and a lot of liability you can face as a founder, especially if you're dealing with, like, health or financial data, in the state of California, for example. [laughs]
\n\nIt puts you at a really big amount of liability that I don't think we've really seen the impact of how bad it can be and will be coming out in the next couple of years now that that law has passed. But that's kind of the approach that we like to think. It's like, you know, there's a minimum we can do that will mitigate a lot of this risk [laughs], so let's do that. Let's do the basics and start off on the right foot here.
\n\nSEAN: Yeah, no, that makes sense. Yeah, it's definitely something I've come to appreciate, especially doing work in regulated spaces is, when you do reach the point where you do need to have some kind of subject matter expert involved, whether it's somebody in-house or a consultant or an advisor, I've definitely learned that usually, like, the better ones are going to talk to you in terms of, like, what are the risk trade-offs you're making here? And what are the principles that all these detailed controls or guidelines are looking to get at?
\n\nAs opposed to just, like, walking you through the box-checking exercise. In my experience, a really good lawyer or somebody who will talk to you about risk versus just saying whether or not you can do something. [laughs] It has a very similar feeling in my experience.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, it's a lot about risk. And someone's got to be able to make those trade-off decisions, and it can be really tough, but it's doable. And I think it shouldn't scare people away. And there's lots of people, lots of ways to do it also, which is exciting. So, I think it's a good space to be in and to see it growing and pay attention to. [laughs]
\n\nIt's fun for me to be in a different place where we're given the opportunity to kind of educate or bring people along in a security journey versus having it be a top-down executive-level decision that we need to meet this particular security standard, and that's the way it's going to be. [laughs] Yeah, so that I appreciate.
\n\nIs there anything that really surprised you in your conversations with Datadog or with other companies around these types of services for, like, platform engineering and observability? Is there anything that surprised you in the discovery process with potential clients for your products?
\n\nSEAN: I think one of the biggest surprises, or maybe not a surprise but an interesting thing is, to what extent, you know, for us, I don't know if this is still the case, but I think in many places, like, we're probably more often competing against nothing than a competing product. And by that, I mean, especially as you look at some of our more sophisticated products like APM, or profiling, it's not so much that somebody has an existing tool that we're looking to replace; it's much more than this is just not a thing they do today. [laughs]
\n\nAnd so, that leads to a very interestingly different conversation that I think, you know, relates to some of what we were saying with security where, you know, I think a non-trivial part of what our sales and technical enablement folks do is effectively education for our customers and potential customers of why they might want to use tools like this, and what kind of value they could get from them.
\n\nThe other one that's been interesting is to see how different customers' attitudes around tools like this have evolved as they've gone through their own migration to the cloud journeys, right? We definitely have a lot of customers that, I think, you know, 5, 10 years ago, when they were running entirely on-prem, using a SaaS product would have been a complete non-starter.
\n\nBut as they move into the cloud, both as they kind of generally get more comfortable with the idea of delegating some of these responsibilities, as well as they start to understand kind of, like, the complexity of the tooling required as their environment gets more complex, the value of a dedicated product like something like Datadog as opposed to, you know, what you kind of get out of the box with the cloud providers or what you might kind of build on your own has definitely been interesting. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Is there a common point that you find companies get to where they're like, all right, now, I really need something? Can you say a little bit more about, like, what might be going on in the organization at that time?
\n\nSEAN: You know, I think there could be a few different paths that companies take to it. Some of it, I think, can come from a place of...I think, especially for kind of larger enterprise customers making a transition like that, they tend to be taking a more holistic look at kind of their distinct practices and seeing what they want to change as they move into the cloud. And often, kind of finding an observability vendor is just kind of, like, part of the checklist there. [laughs] Not to dismiss it, but just, like, that seems to be certainly one path into it.
\n\nI think for smaller customers, or maybe customers that are more, say, cloud-native, I think it can generally be a mix of either hitting a point where they're kind of done with the overhead of trying to maintain their own infrastructure of, like, trying to run their own ELK stack and, like, build all the tooling on top of that, and keeping that up and running, and the costs associated with that. Or, it's potentially seeing the sophistication of tooling that, like, a dedicated provider can afford to invest that realistically, you're never going to invest in on your own, right? Like, stuff like live profiling is deeply non-trivial to implement. [laughs]
\n\nI think especially once people get some experience with a product like Datadog, they start thinking about, like, okay, how much value are we actually getting out of doing this on our own versus using a more off-the-shelf product? I don't know if we've been doing it post-COVID. But I remember pre-COVID...so Datadog has a huge presence at re:Invent and the other similar major cloud provider things.
\n\nAnd I remember for a few years at re:Invent, you know, we obviously had, like, the giant 60x60 booth in the main expo floor, where we were giving demos and whatnot. But they also would have...AWS would do this, like, I think they call it the interactive hall where companies could have, like, more hands-on booths, and you had, like, a whole spectrum of stuff. And there were, like, some companies just had, like, random, like, RC car setups or Lego tables, just stuff like that.
\n\nBut we actually did a setup where there was a booth of, I think, like, six stations. People would step up, and they would race each other to solve a kind of faux incident using Datadog. The person who would solve it first would win a switch. I think we gave away a huge number of switches as part of that, which at first I was like, wow, that seems expensive. [laughs]
\n\nBut then later, you know, I was mostly working the main booth at that re:Invent. So by the, like, Wednesday and Thursday of re:Invent, I'd have people walking up to the main booth being like, "Hey, so I did the thing over at the Aria. And now I installed Datadog in prod last night, and I have questions." I was like, oh, okay. [laughs] So, I think just, like, the power of, like, getting that hands-on time, and using some of the tools, and understanding the difference there is what kind of gets a lot of people to kind of change their mind there. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: You'd get me with a switch right now. I kind of want one, but I don't want to buy one.
\n\nSEAN: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: Same. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Because I know it'll take up all my time.
\n\nSEAN: Uh-huh. That's fair. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: But I will try to win one at a conference for sure. I think that's true. And it makes sense that because your product is often going with clients that don't have these practices yet, that as soon as you give them exposure to it, you see what you can do with it, that becomes a very powerful selling tool. Like, this is the value of the product, right? [laughs]
\n\nSEAN: Yeah, there is also something we see, and I think most of our kind of peers in the industry see is, very often, people come in initially looking for and using a single product, like, you know, infrastructure, metrics, or logs. And then, as they see that and see where that touches other parts of the product, their usage kind of grows and expands over time. I would obviously defer to our earnings calls for exact numbers. But generally speaking, more or less kind of half of our new business is usually expanded usage from existing customers as opposed to new customers coming in. So, I think there's also a lot of just kind of organic discovery and building of trust over time that happens there, which is interesting.
\n\nVICTORIA: One of my favorite points to make, which is that SRE sounds very technical and, like, this really extreme thing. But to make it sound a little more easier, is that it is how you validate that the user experience is what you expect it to be. [laughs] I wonder if you have any other thoughts you want to add to that, just about, like, SRE and user experience and how that all connects for real business value.
\n\nSEAN: I think a lot of places where, you know, we've both seen internally ourselves and with customers is, you know; obviously, different companies operate in different models and whatnot. Where people have seen success is where, you know, people with formal SRE titles or team names can kind of be coming in as just kind of another perspective on the various kind of things that teams are trying to drive towards.
\n\nThe places reliability is successfully integrated is when they can kind of make that connection that you were talking about. It's, like, obviously, everybody should go take their vitamins, but, like, what actual value is coming from this, right? Nobody wants to have outages, but, like, to do the work to invest in reliability, often, like, it can be hard to say, like, okay, what's the actual difference between before and after? Having people who can help draw those connections and help weigh those trade-offs, I think, can definitely be super helpful.
\n\nBut it is generally much more effective, I think, in my experience, when it does come from that perspective of, like, what value are we providing? What are we trading off as part of this? As opposed to just, well, you should do this because it's the right thing to do, kind of a moralistic perspective. [laughs] But, I don't know, how do you all kind of end up having that conversation with your customers and clients?
\n\nVICTORIA: That's exactly it. That's the same. It's starting that conversation about, like, well, what happens when this experience fails, which designers don't necessarily think about? What's, like, the most important paths that you want a user to take through your application that we want to make sure works?
\n\nAnd when you tie it all back there, I think then when the developers are understanding how to create those metrics and how to understand user behavior, that's when it becomes really powerful so that they're getting the feedback they need to do the right code, and to make the right changes. Versus just going purely on interviews [laughs] and not necessarily, like, understanding behavior within the app. I think that starts to make it clear.
\n\nSEAN: Part of that, I think that's been an interesting experience for us is also just some of the conversation there around, like, almost the flip side of, when are you investing potentially too much in that, right? Because, like, especially after a certain point, the cost of additional gains grows exponentially, right? Each one of those nines gets more and more expensive. [laughs]
\n\nAnd so, having the conversation of, like, do you actually need that level of reliability, or, like, is that...just like what you're saying. Like, you know, kind of giving some of that context and that pressure of, like, yeah, we can do that, but, like, this is what it's going to cost. Is that what you want to be spending your money on? Kind of things can also be an interesting part of that conversation.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's a really good point that, you know, you can set goals that are too high [laughs] and not necessary. So, it does take a lot of just understanding about your data and your users to know what are acceptable levels of error.
\n\nI think the other thing that you can think about, too, like, what could happen, and we've seen it happen with some startups, is that, like, something within the app is deeply broken, but you don't know. And you just think that you're not having user engagement, or that users are signing off, or, like, you know, not opening the app after the first day.
\n\nSo, if you don't have any way to really actively monitor it and you're not spending money on an active development team, you can have some method to just be confident that the app is working and to make your life less miserable [laughs] when you have a smaller team supporting, especially if you're trying to really minimize your overhead for running an application.
\n\nSEAN: Yep. It's surprisingly hard to know when things are broken sometimes. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, and then extremely painful when you find out later [laughs] because that's when it's become a real problem, yeah. I wonder, are there any other questions you have for me or for Will?
\n\nSEAN: How big of an organization is thoughtbot at this time?
\n\nVICTORIA: Close to 75 people? We're, yeah, between the Americas and the [inaudible 38:31] region. So, that's where we're at right now, yeah.
\n\nSEAN: Nice. At that size, like, and I guess it sounds like you're pretty heavily distributed, so maybe some of this doesn't happen as much, but, like, one of the things I definitely remember...so, when I joined Datadog, it was probably about 500 people. And I think we're just under 5,000 now. There are definitely some points where there were surprisingly, like, physical aspects to where it became a problem of just, like, where certain teams didn't fit into a room anymore. [laughs] Like, I had surprise in the changes in that, like, dynamic. I'm curious if you've all kind of run into any kind of, I don't know, similar interesting thresholds or changes as you've kind of grown and evolved.
\n\nWILL: I will say this, we're about 100, I think, Victoria.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, okay, we're 100 people. I think, you know, I've only been at thoughtbot for just over a year now. And my understanding of the history is that when we were growing before COVID, there's always been a very intentionality about growth. And there was never a goal to get to a huge size or to really grow beyond just, like, a steady, profitable growth. [laughs]
\n\nSo, when we were growing in person, there were new offices being stood up. So, we, you know, maybe started out of New York and Boston and grew to London. And then, there was Texas, and I think a few other ones that started. Then with COVID, the decision was made to go fully remote, and I think that's opened up a lot of opportunities for us. And from my understanding in the previous and the past, is that there's a big shift to be fully remote.
\n\nIt's been challenging, where I think a lot of people miss some of the in-person days, and I'm sure it's definitely lonely working remote all day by yourself. So, you have to really proactively find opportunities to see other people and to engage remotely. But I think also, we hire people from so many different places and so much different talent, and then, also, you know, better informs our products and creates a different, you know, energy within the company that I think is really fun and really exciting for us now.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I would agree with that because I think the team that I'm on has about 26 people on the Lift Off team. And we're constantly thinking of new ways to get everyone involved. But as a developer, me myself being remote, I love talking to people. So, I try to be proactive and, like, connect with the people I'm working with and say, "Hey, how can I help you with this?" Let's jump in this room and just work together, chat together, and stuff like that, so...
\n\nAnd it has opened the door because the current project that I'm on, I would never have had an opportunity to be on. I think it's based in Utah, and I'm in South Florida. So, there's just no way if we weren't remote that I'd been a part of it. So...
\n\nSEAN: Nice. And I can definitely appreciate that. I remember when we first started COVID lockdown; I think, at that point, Datadog was probably about...Datadog engineering was probably about 30% remote, so certainly a significant remote contingent but mixed. But my teams were pretty remote-heavy. So, in some ways, not a lot changed, right? Like, I think more people on my team were, like, who are all these other people in my house now instead of [laughs], I mean, just transition from being in an office to working from home.
\n\nBut I do remember maybe, like, about six months in, starting to feel, yeah, some of the loneliness and the separation of just, like, not being able to do, like, quarterly team meetups or stuff like that. So, it's definitely been an interesting transition. For context, at this point, we kind of have a hybrid setup. So, we still have a significant kind of full-time remote contingent, and then four people who are in office locations, people joining for about three days a week in office. So, it's definitely an interesting transition and an interesting new world. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And I'm curious how you find the tech scene in Denver versus New York or if you're engaging in the community in the same way since you moved.
\n\nSEAN: There definitely is some weirdness since COVID started [laughs] broadly [inaudible 42:21]. So, I moved here in 2020. But I'd been coming out here a lot before that. I helped to build an office here with Bitly. So, I was probably coming out once a quarter for a bunch of years. So, one parallel that is finally similar is, like, in both places, it is a small world. It doesn't take that long for you to be in that community, in either of those communities and start running into the same people in different places. So, that's always been [inaudible 42:42] and especially in New York. New York is a city of what? 8, 9 million people?
\n\nBut once you're working in New York tech for a few years and you go into some meetups, you start running into the same people, and you have one or two degrees [inaudible 42:52] to a lot of people, surprisingly quickly. [laughs] So, that's similar. But Denver probably is interesting in that it's definitely transplant-heavy. I think Denver tends to check the box for, like, it was part of why Bitly opened an office here and, to a degree, Datadog as well.
\n\nI think of like, you know, if you're trying to recruit people and you previously were mostly recruiting in, like, New York or Silicon Valley; if you're based in New York, and you're trying to recruit somebody from Silicon Valley, and part of why they're looking for a new gig is they're burned out on Silicon Valley, asking them to move to New York probably isn't all that attractive. [laughs] But Denver is different enough in that in terms of kind of being a smaller city, easier access to nature, a bunch of that kind of stuff, that a lot of times we were able to attract talent that was a much more appealing prospect. [laughs]
\n\nYou'll see an interesting mix of industries here. One of the bigger things here is there's a very large government and DOD presence here. I remember I went to DevOps Days Rockies, I think, a few years ago. There was a Birds of a Feather session on trying to apply DevOps principles in air-gapped networks. That was a very interesting conversation. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: That's interesting. I would not have thought Colorado would be a big hub for federal technology. But there you go, it's everywhere.
\n\nWILL: Yeah.
\n\nSEAN: Denver metro, I think, is actually the largest presence of federal offices outside of the D.C. metro.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's interesting. Yeah, I'm used to trying to recruit people into D.C., and so, it's definitely not the good weather, [laughs], not a good argument in my favor. So, I just wanted to give you a final chance. Anything else you'd like to promote, Sean?
\n\nSEAN: Generally, not super active on social things these days, but you can find whatever I have done at seanoc.com, S-E–A-N-O-C.com for the spelling. And otherwise, if you're interested in some engineering content and hearing about some of those kind of bleeding edge challenges that I was mentioning before, I would definitely check out the Datadog engineering blog. There's lots of kind of really interesting content there on both, you know, things we've learned from incidents and interesting projects that we're working on. There's all kinds of fun stuff there.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes me think I should have asked you more questions, Sean. [laughs] No, I think it was great. Thank you so much for joining us today. I'll definitely check all that stuff out.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nWILL: And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Sean O'Connor.
Sponsored By:
Kendall Miller is the Co-Founder and COO of CTO Lunches, a network of engineering leaders to get trusted advice and connections.
\n\nThe first half of the conversation with host Victoria Guido and special guest host, Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot revolves around the use, adoption, and growth of Kubernetes within the technology industry. The discussion explores Kubernetes' history, influence, and its comparison with other platforms like Heroku and WordPress, emphasizing its adaptability and potential.
\n\nThe second half focuses on more practical aspects of Kubernetes, including its adoption and scalability. It centers on the appropriateness of adopting Kubernetes for different projects and how it can future-proof infrastructure. The importance of translating technical language into business speak is emphasized to influence executives and others in the decision-making process and Kendall also discuss communication and empathy in tech, particularly the skill of framing questions and understanding others' emotional states.
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\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Kendall Miller, Co-Founder and COO of CTO Lunches, a network of engineering leaders to get trusted advice and connections. Kendall, thank you for joining me.
\n\nKENDALL: Thanks for having me. I'm excited.
\n\nVICTORIA: And today, we have a special guest host, Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot. Joe, thank you for joining us.
\n\nJOE: Hello there. Thank you for having me.
\n\nKENDALL: Hi, Joe. Thanks for being here. It's exciting.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes. It's so exciting. I think this is going to be a great episode. So, Kendall, I met you at a San Diego CTO lunch recently, and I know that's not the only thing that you do. So, you're also an advisor, a board member, and CXO. So, maybe tell us a little bit more about your background.
\n\nKENDALL: Gosh, my background is complicated. I've been involved in tech for a very long time. In college, I worked for a company that started Twitter about five years too soon, and then worked in the nonprofit space in China for ten years, then came back, got back involved in tech.
\n\nToday, I'm usually the business guy. So, when technical founders start technical products and want help turning them into successful technical businesses, that's when they call me. So, I have the technical background. I have never been paid to write code, which is probably a good thing. But I can hang in the technical conversations for the most part, but I'm much more interested in the business side and the people leadership side of business. So that tends to be where I play. Every organization hires me to do something different.
\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you for that. And I'm just curious about the CTO Lunches. Just tell me a little bit more about that. And what's the idea behind it that led you to co-found it?
\n\nKENDALL: CTO Lunches has actually been around for about eight years. And I didn't start the initial incarnation of it. It was two people that got us started, and I was trying to hire one of them; one thing led to another. Actually, originally, they did not want me to join. I think, at the time, my title was COO at a company that I was working with.
\n\nAbout six months later, I took over engineering as VP of engineering, and then they're like, you can join the group now. We're less strict about that [laughs] now. Although it is highly focused on senior engineering leaders, it's not exclusively CTOs. But the group's been in place for a very long time, just intended as a place to network, have conversation with people who are in that senior-most technical position at technical organization.
\n\nSo, the CTO role is a lonely role. CTOs get fired all the time. There's not a technical person at the company that doesn't think they can do the job better than them. So, the CTO is always getting feedback. You're doing this wrong. The trade-offs you're making are wrong. This isn't going where it should be going. We should automate that. Why haven't we automated that? We should switch to this other tool. I've used it before; it's 100 times better. Joe, let me know if I'm getting any of this wrong. But that's the experience that I've had.
\n\nHaving a place where people can get together and, you know, half the time just complain to each other, hey, this is hard, is really why the networking group exists. So, it's a listserv. And there are local lunches that started in Boulder, Colorado. It's gotten pretty global.
\n\nAbout a year ago, a little over a year ago, I was talking with one of the people who'd gotten it started. I've been involved in the Denver chapter for most of those eight years. And I was suggesting to him that he change a few things about it, to monetize it so that he could invest in it further. And he came back a few months later and said, "I want to take your advice and do this, but I want you to come do it with me."
\n\nSo, we founded the company officially...I think in December is when paperwork went into place. And we started investing in it a little bit more heavily. I was living in Europe last year, so we went and put on lunches in Paris, and Lisbon, and London, and, gosh, all over the place. I'm sure I'm missing some, Amsterdam. But there's been chapters all over the U.S. and a couple of other parts of the world for a long time.
\n\nVICTORIA: That reflects my experience attending a CTO lunch. It's just very casual, like, just get together and eat food and talk about what you've worked on recently, issues you're having, just get ideas and make some friends. So, I really appreciated the group, and I'm going to personally plug the San Diego Chapter has picked up again. And we're meeting next Friday down in Del Mar. And we're going to be meeting on the last Friday of every month through October. So, I'm super excited to be a part of the group.
\n\nAnd Joe, yeah, I'm curious about your perspective. As a CTO with thoughtbot, just what are your thoughts about that kind of thing?
\n\nKENDALL: Yeah. How right am I about how lonely you are, Joe?
\n\nJOE: [laughs] You know, I've been lonelier since we went remote. I used to work in the office, and I was a CTO, but also, I had lunch with people, which was nice. So, I'm lonelier. But yeah, I think everybody needs a group like that, like, senior developer therapy just to talk about your woes together, drown your sorrows.
\n\nKENDALL: Well, I think years ago, I heard that CTOs are the most fired C-level executive.
\n\nJOE: You're making me nervous now.
\n\nKENDALL: [laughs] You've been there a long time, Joe. I know you've been there a long time. If you haven't been fired yet, you probably got a little while longer in you. This will be really awkward if it's published and you've already been fired.
\n\nVICTORIA: We can always edit that out afterwards.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nKENDALL: Yeah, no, I think it is a particularly lonely position. And, again, I think a lot of it is the average engineer in a technical company doesn't look at the COO or the CFO or even the CEO and think I could do that. But they're all looking at the CTO and thinking, what does that person do that I can't do?
\n\nIt's ridiculous because most of them would make terrible CTOs because it does require some of the business sense. Or, you know, right out of the gate, they might make terrible CTOs. It actually is quite a skill to be the most technical person and speak the business language. I mean, am I right about that, Joe? Like, was that hard for you to learn?
\n\nJOE: Yeah, I definitely think...so, my background is also technical. I have a background in consulting. So, I always did a lot of metaprogramming, if you will. But making that transition to thinking about organizations that way, thinking about how all the other pieces play into it, was a pretty big step for me, even before I became a CTO as a consultant.
\n\nKENDALL: Well, because you can't just chase the newest, hottest technology. You have to make business trade-offs. And not everything can be resume-driven development, right? Even if that technology over there is newer or hotter, it doesn't mean you have a business model that supports it. And it doesn't mean that migrating to it can be done, right?
\n\nJOE: Yeah. I mean, even beyond choosing technologies, just choosing where to invest in your software stack, like, what needs to be reworked, what doesn't, and trying to explain those trade-offs, I think, is a rare skill. Being able to explain why something would be harder than something else when you're working with the leadership to prioritize a backlog it's a puzzle.
\n\nKENDALL: Well, and I think when I'm in an executive conversation, and the CTO says, "Here's the thing that I think is the best decision technically, and I think it's the wrong decision for the business because of X, Y, or Z," I'm always super impressed, right? Like, this is the right technical solution for what we want. However, we shouldn't pursue that for business reasons right now. Maybe we can in six months, but right now, we need to prioritize this other thing. I don't know, that's always when I feel like, oh, this person knows what they're doing.
\n\nJOE: There's nothing more dangerous to software than a bored developer. [laughs] One nice thing about being a consultant is that I don't have to invent problems to solve with technology at my company because sooner or later, I'll run across a company that has those problems, and I'll get to use that technology.
\n\nBut I think a lot of people are mostly happy...they might be happy in their role. They might be happy with our team. But they're very interested in whatever is hot right now, like machine learning, AI. And so, suddenly, that surreptitiously makes its way into the tech stack. And then, years later, it's somebody's problem to maintain.
\n\nKENDALL: [laughs] Well, I have a specific memory of a firm in New York City that was, you know, this is relevant to y'all as thoughtbot is that, you know, at least historically, it was, to me, the premier Ruby on Rails consulting shop. I think that's still largely y'alls focus. Am I right about that?
\n\nJOE: We still do a ton of Rails, yeah.
\n\nKENDALL: Okay. Well, so this organization was all Ruby on Rails. It was a big organization. They had a very large customer base. And they hired a new CTO who came in, told everybody in the company they were stupid, laid off 70% of the engineering organization, and told the CEO he was going to completely rewrite the product from scratch in .NET, and he could do it in three weeks. And I'm pretty sure the business went under about three months later [laughs] because that was just so outrageously nuts to me.
\n\nJOE: It's too bad he laid everybody off beforehand. I've been in that situation where somebody tells me, "I'm going to rewrite this. It'll be ready in three weeks." And I could fight with them and try and convince them they're wrong. But I feel like somebody who's approaching that with that attitude they're missing all of the nuance and context that would make it possible to explain to them why it's not going to work. And so, it's easier to just say, "You know, take the three weeks. I'll talk to you in three weeks." But if you've already laid off your development team, that's hard [laughs] to recover from.
\n\nKENDALL: That's exactly right.
\n\nVICTORIA: There's got to be a name for that kind of CTO who just wants to come in and blow everything up [laughs]. Yeah, so you spend a lot of time talking to different CTOs and doing this social networking aspect. I'm wondering if there's, like, patterns that you see. You've mentioned already one about just, like, the most often getting fired. [laughs] But what are the patterns you see, like, in challenges, and then what makes someone successful in that CTO role?
\n\nKENDALL: Well, oh gosh, I have so many thoughts about this. First of all, I run into a couple of different categories of CTOs. There's a lot of people who come to CTO Lunches who are small company CTOs. I mean, it makes sense that there's a lot more small company CTOs than there are big company CTOs. But the small company CTO who maybe it's their first gig in the role or they're a serial CTO. There's the fractional CTOs that come that are doing it across several different organizations at the same time, and then there's the big company CTO who shows up. And honestly, all of their problems are very different.
\n\nThe thing that they have in common is even at a very large organization, in that position, they can make a decision that causes the company to go under. So, there is a significant amount of volatility in the amount of power that they wield. So, what's interesting about that is not everybody understands that.
\n\nAnd so, first of all, there's the kind of CTO that just doesn't get that, and that doesn't matter if they're fractional, or a small company CTO, or a big company CTO. If they don't understand that, they're going to cause significant problems, right? Like the person I just mentioned who said, "I can just re-platform this in three weeks in .NET." There's that.
\n\nI mean, I think, as with any senior leadership position, the comfort with volatility, the ability to know what to communicate down versus across and versus up, and then the ability to speak the business language. For everybody, the CFO's job is to communicate the financial needs alongside of the business leads, right?
\n\nIf the CFO's sole goal is to cut costs or make sure we're running as lean as possible, they're a bad CFO. But they're not as good of a CFO as the CFO who can say, "Hey, we're underspending right here. And I can look at the numbers and know we should invest more there. How can we invest more there and invest it well?" And it's the same thing for a technology executive to be able to look at the business context and communicate it back.
\n\nAnd there are so many CTOs that I've worked with who they're the most technical person in the room, and they know it. And as a result, they're just a jerk to everyone around them, like, everything you did here was wrong. You know, that's where they fail. And so, if they can communicate the business needs, navigate the volatility, and support a team that's going to make decisions that aren't always the same decision they're going to make, they're going to be successful. Honestly, there's very, very few CTOs that I've met like that. People who are excited to meet you at work, excited to see you succeed, excited to see that you went and built a thing is great.
\n\nI mean, the reason I was VP of engineering is the CTO that I was working with at the time...it's a terrible story. There was an engineer who had seen something that we were doing on repeat all the time and, in his spare time, spent about 40 hours outside of work, not during work hours, automating this task that we were doing regularly. And it was related to standing up a whole bunch of things in our standard infrastructure.
\n\nHe brings it to the CTO and says, "Look what I built." And the CTO, instead of saying, "Hey, this is incredible. Thank you. This is going to save us a bunch of time. Let's iterate on it. Here's some things I'd like to tweak. Can we bring it in this direction? Can we..." you know, whatever, said, "Why is this in Python? It should be in Ansible," something like that. I can't remember. And the engineer literally burst into tears. [laughs]
\n\nJOE: Oh my God.
\n\nKENDALL: [laughs] Well, I mean, yeah, it was like; literally, that's why the CTO stopped managing people that day. There's a lot of examples that I have like that. Joe, I appreciate that your response is, "Oh my God." Because I think there's a lot of people who'd be like, wait, what was wrong with that? Shouldn't it have been in Ansible?
\n\nJOE: [laughs] Yeah, I've seen CTOs come into primarily two groups. One is the CTO who just tells, you know, like, they make the decisions, and they tell everybody what to do. They obviously don't have all of the information because you can't be in every room all the time. And the other is the CTO, who just wants to be one of the team members and doesn't make any decisions and tries to get people to make decisions collectively on their own without any particular guidance or structure. And finding that middle spot of, like, not just saying, "Hey, everything's in Ansible," allowing for the creativity and initiative, but also coalescing the group into a single direction, I think, is what makes a good CTO.
\n\nKENDALL: Well, yeah, because the CTO does have to say no, sometimes, right? Like, the best product, people say, "No." Good CTOs say, "No." There is some amount of, hey, I need you to come to me with trade-offs about this. Why are you going to make that decision? And I'm sorry, you still didn't convince me, right? Like, I mean, those are appropriate things to say. But yeah, I'm with you on that. You said they fall into two categories. But you really mean the third and that middle ground. Is it easy for you to walk that middle ground, Joe?
\n\nJOE: I wouldn't say it's easy. [laughs]
\n\nKENDALL: Yeah. Well, I'm always nervous to say something. I'm doing well because I know there's a report out there that can point at every time I failed at it, right? So...
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\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, what I'm getting from what you're saying, too, is this communication ability and not just, like, to communicate clearly but with a high level of empathy. So, if you say like, "Well, why is it in Python and not Ansible?" is different than being like, "What makes Python the best solution here?" Like, it's a different way to frame the question that could put someone on the defensive that just really requires, like, a high level of emotional intelligence.
\n\nAnd also, if they've just worked, like, an 80-hour week, [laughs] I probably would maybe choose a different time to bring those questions up and notice that they have been burning the candle at both ends and prioritize getting them some rest. So, speaking of, like, communication and getting prioritization for [inaudible 15:34], especially on, like, infrastructure teams, maybe we could talk a little bit about Kubernetes, like, when that comes up as an appropriate solution, and how you talk about it with the business.
\n\nKENDALL: My background with Kubernetes is long because a company that I still work with, Fairwinds, used to be called ReactiveOps, has been in the Kubernetes space for a very long time. I think we were one of the very first companies working with Kubernetes. It was coming up that people were running into the limits of something like Heroku, right? And I think it's Kelsey Hightower who said every company wants a PaaS. They just want the Paas that they built themselves. And that's really accurate.
\n\nAnd I think Kubernetes isn't quite a framework for building your own PaaS or isn't quite a foundation where I think of a foundation for a house. Instead, it's more like rebar and cement and somebody saying, "Good luck, buddy." You know, you still have to know how to put the rebar and cement together to even make the foundation, but it is the building blocks that help get you to a custom-built PaaS. And it's become something that a lot of people have landed on as, you know, the broadly accepted way to build cloud-native infrastructure.
\n\nThe reason I've been in the Kubernetes space and the space that I see Kubernetes still filling is we need to standardize on something. We can choose a cloud provider's PaaS. We can choose a third-party PaaS, or we can standardize on something like Kubernetes. And even though we're not going to migrate from AWS to Azure, the flexibility that Kubernetes gives us as a broadly adopted pattern is going to give us some ability to be future-proofed in our infrastructure in a way that previous stacks were not, you know, it was Puppet, and it was Ansible. And it was SaltStack. And it was all Terraform all the time.
\n\nI'm not saying those things don't exist anymore. I'm saying Kubernetes kind of has won that battle. Joe, since you're here and I know y'all are doing some Kubernetes work now at thoughtbot, I'm curious if you agree with that characterization.
\n\nJOE: Yeah, I think that's true. I think it's the center for people to coalesce around. Like, for an effort in the industry to move forward, there needs to be some common language, some common ground. And I think Kubernetes struck the right balance of being abstract. So, you can use it in different environments but still making some decisions, so you don't have to make them all.
\n\nAnd so, like, all of the things you had to do with containers like figuring out what your data solution is going to be, what your networking solution is going to be, Kubernetes didn't even really make those decisions. [laughs] They just made a platform where those decisions can be made in a common way. And that allowed the community and the ecosystem to grow.
\n\nKENDALL: I mean, I think of it a lot like WordPress; you know, WordPress is hated by many. When WordPress came out, it was hot, right? And it was PHP, which everybody was super excited about at the time. Kubernetes is going to reach a point where it's as long in the tooth and terrible as people think WordPress is, but it has become the standard. And the advantage of the standard is you can use the not standard. You can go build a website in Jekyll instead of WordPress, and there's going to be some things that are nicer about Jekyll.
\n\nBut because WordPress is so broadly adopted, there's a plugin for everything. And I think that's where Kubernetes sits is because it's become so widely adopted everybody's building for it. Everybody's adapting for it. If you run into a problem, you're going to find somebody else out there who has that problem.
\n\nIn fact, I think of one organization that I know that was on HashiCorp's Nomad. And they said, "Actually, we think Nomad has better technology through and through. But we think we're the only company at this size and scale using Nomad. And so, when we run into a problem, we can't Google for it. There's no such thing as a plugin that exists to solve this. Nobody has ever run into this before on Nomad. But there's 100 companies dealing with the same problem in Kubernetes, and there's ten solutions." And I think that's the power that it brings.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, it's not just a trend that CTOs are moving towards, you think.
\n\nKENDALL: I mean, I think it's already won the battle and the hockey stick of adoption. We're still right at the very bottom of that tick-up because it takes people a long time to adapt new technology like this, especially in their infrastructure. It's a big migration, to move. So, I don't think it's the widely adopted infrastructure technology even yet. I think a lot of the biggest organizations are still running on things that predate Kubernetes. But I think it has won the battle, and it is winning the battle and is going to be the thing going forward, so yeah.
\n\nJOE: I think it also has a lot of room to grow still. Like, there are other technologies that I used previously, like Docker, and they were a big step up from some of the things I was doing at the time. But you quickly hit the ceiling, or it was, like, I don't know where to go with this next. I don't know what else is going to happen.
\n\nWhereas with Kubernetes, there are so many directions it can go in. Like, the serverless Kubernetes offerings that are starting to pop up are extremely interesting, where, you know, you don't actually maintain a cluster or anything. You just deploy things to this ethereal cluster that always exists. And so, that sort of combination of platform as a service, function as a service, Kubernetes, as that evolves, I think there are a lot of exciting things that have yet to come in the Kubernetes space.
\n\nKENDALL: Well, so say more about that, Joe, because I've been going to KubeCon for a very long time, maybe...I don't know if it's 2016 or so when I first went. And it felt for a number of years...maybe those first four-ish years it was always the people at KubeCon were the, like, big dreamers and thinkers and, like, we're here to change the future of cloud infrastructure. And this is going places, and we're excited to be here and be a part of it. And here's what I'm going to do that changes the next thing.
\n\nAnd I feel like now if I go to KubeCon, it's a lot of people from, you know, IBM and some big bank that are, like, deep sigh, well, I have to adopt Kubernetes. I need to know what the vendors are. What do you guys do, and how does this work? Can you please teach it to me? Because I'm being told by my boss, I have to do it.
\n\nI don't see that excitement around Kubernetes anymore. The excitement I see is all around further up the stack, you know, things like Wasm, WebAssembly, or eBPF, the networking things and tracing things that are possible. Maybe that's further down the stack. I guess it depends on how you think about it, but different part of the stack. So, I'm curious, touching on the serverless components of Kubernetes; sure, I get that. And I do think, increasingly, the PaaSs of the future are all going to be Kubernetes-based, whether that's exposed or not.
\n\nBut where are the places that you think it's still going to go? Because I feel like it's already gotten boring, maybe in a positive way. But I don't see the excitement around it like I saw a few years back. And I'm curious what else you think is going to happen.
\n\nJOE: Yeah, I mean, I don't think I disagree. I think Kubernetes itself, the core concept, is, like, it's still changing. But you're right that the excitement about Kubernetes existing has gone down because it's been there for a while. But I feel like the ecosystem is still growing pretty rapidly. Like, the things you mentioned, like Wasm and Istio, and all the tools in that ecosystem that continue to grow, is where I think the interesting things will happen. Like, it's created this new lower-level layer of abstraction that makes it possible to build concepts and technology that could not have existed before.
\n\nKENDALL: Yeah, well, and I'm, you know, talking to people who are working really hard at making short-run ephemeral workloads work better on things like GPUs for the sake of AI, right? Like, I mean, there is some really interesting things happening, and people are doing this in Kubernetes. So, I get that. I agree with that.
\n\nIt is interesting that Kubernetes has become sort of the stable thing, and now it's about who can build the interesting add-ons. It's almost like, okay, we've built Half-Life. What is Counter-Strike going to look like? You know. That's a terrible (I'm aging myself.) example. But still.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think it's interesting, I mean, to look at the size of the market for platform engineering right now. In 2022, was 4.8 billion, and it's estimated to be in 10 years $41 billion. So, there is this emerging trend of different platform engineering products, different abstractions on top of Kubernetes. And I wonder what advice you would have for a technical founder who's looking to build and solve some of these interesting issues in Kubernetes and create a business around it.
\n\nKENDALL: Well, okay, let me clarify that question. Are you thinking, I'm a startup, and I need to build my infrastructure, and I'm going to choose Kubernetes. What advice do I need? Or are you thinking, I am founder, and I want to go build on the Kubernetes ecosystem. What advice do you have?
\n\nVICTORIA: Now I want to know the answer to both. But my question was the second one to start.
\n\nKENDALL: One of the things that is hard about the Kubernetes ecosystem is there's not a ton of companies that have made a whole bunch of money in Kubernetes because, as I said, I still think we're actually really early in the adoption curve.
\n\nThe kinds of companies that have adopted Kubernetes are the kinds of companies that don't spend lots and lots of money on an infrastructure. [laughs] They're the kinds of companies that are fast-moving, early adopters, or, you know, those first followers, and so they're under $100 million companies for the most part. Where the JP Morgans and Chase are running Kubernetes somewhere in their stack, but they haven't adopted it across the stack to need the biggest, best tools about it.
\n\nSo, the first piece of advice that I'd give is, be a little wary. It's still very early to the market. Maybe now is the time to build the thing. When ReactiveOps pivoted to Kubernetes, I think it was six months of having conversations with companies who were just, like, so excited about it, and this is definitely what we want to do. But nobody was doing it yet. You know, it was, we have, like, six solid months of just excitement and nobody actually pulling the trigger. And, you know, we were a little too early to that market. And that was just the people adopting it.
\n\nSo, I think there is some nervousness that cloud-native solutions the only people who are really making money in Kubernetes are named Amazon, Google, and Microsoft because it's the cloud providers that are making a ton off of it. Now, there's Rancher. There is StackPointCloud. There's a few others that have had big exits in this space. But I don't think it's actually as big of a booming economy as a lot of people think, in part because EKS is an incredibly amazing product.
\n\nLike, eight years ago, the thing people paid us the most to do at ReactiveOps was just stand up Kubernetes because it was so stinking hard to just get it up and working. And now you click some buttons. Anybody can go do that. So, it's changed a lot, right? And I think be wary when you're entering that ecosystem.
\n\nAnd then, my advice to the founder that's not building on the ecosystem but just looking to adopt a technology that's going to be a future-proofed infrastructure is just adopt one of the cloud-native platforms. And there are a whole bunch of sort of default best-in-class add-ons out there that you need to throw in. Don't adopt too many because then you have to maintain them forever. That's the easiest way to get started. You can figure out all the rest of it later. But if you go use EKS, or GKE, AKS, you can get started pretty easily and build something that is going to be future-proofed. I don't know, Joe; I'm curious if you disagree with any of that.
\n\nJOE: Well, I think it's interesting to think about who's making money in Kubernetes. Like, I think there might not be as many companies who are doing only Kubernetes and Kubernetes-focused products that are massively successful. But I think because it has had a good amount of adoption and because it's easier to work with something that's standardized, it has helped companies sell things that they wanted to sell anyway. Like, all the Datadog, all the Scalas, the logging companies, they all have Kubernetes add-ons.
\n\nAnd now everybody is paying Datadog [laughs] to have a dashboard for their Kubernetes cluster. I think they're making more money than they would have been without targeting the market. And so, I think that's really...if you want to get into the market, it's not, like, I'm going to build a Kubernetes product. It's if I'm building operations and an infrastructure product, I should definitely have it work with Kubernetes, and people will want to click and install it.
\n\nKENDALL: So, to be clear, you know, one of the companies that I work with is called Axiom, and they play in the same, you know, monitoring, observability space as Datadog does. And part of what makes Kubernetes interesting in that space is in a microservice environment; there's so much happening. Where are problems being caused? We don't live in a day where I can just run my code, and it tells me that there's an unexpected semicolon on line 23, right? Like, that still happens. You're still doing those things.
\n\nBut this microservice talking to that microservice is where things tend to break down. Did I communicate this correctly? What was sent? What was received? Where did it break down? What was the latency? And if you were doing things in the old way back when you were standing it up with, say, Ansible, or Puppet, or something like that, and you were orchestrating all of these cloud virtual machines, you had to really work hard to instrument the tracing and logging and everything involved in order to track what was going on.
\n\nWhereas that's one of the magic things about Kubernetes is with a few of the add-ons or some of the things out of the box with Kubernetes, it's a couple of clicks to get so, so much of the data and have insight into where things are going and what's going wrong. And so, I 100% agree with that.
\n\nKubernetes is generating a tremendous amount of data. And if you're a data company, it's really nice to have all that come in, and it helps them make money, helps the user of Kubernetes in that situation understand where problems are happening and breaking down. Yeah, there's definitely some network effects of what Kubernetes is doing in that. I completely agree.
\n\nJOE: I think there are also some interesting companies, like, where they make...Emissary, Ambassador, and they have that sort of dual --
\n\nKENDALL: Komodor, is that --
\n\nJOE: Yeah, maybe. They have open source, but then they have a product.
\n\nKENDALL: You're thinking of Ambassador Labs.
\n\nJOE: Yeah. Ambassador Labs, yeah. I guess I don't really know how much money they're making. But I think that's a really interesting concept as people who make open-source things then make a well-supported product built around it.
\n\nKENDALL: Sure. What's interesting is, I think in the VC world, at least right now, and it may pick up again, but post-Silicon Valley Bank nearly caving in, I think that the VC tolerance for, yeah, just go get a billion open-source adopters, and we'll figure out how to monetize later I think that the tolerance for that is a lot lower than it was even six months ago.
\n\nJOE: Yeah, I think you have to have a dual model right from the beginning now.
\n\nKENDALL: Yeah. Agreed.
\n\nVICTORIA: You got to figure out how to make money on Kubernetes before you can. [laughs]
\n\nKENDALL: You know, minor detail. That's why I think services companies in this space still have a lot going for it. Because in order to even be able to sell software to a company using Kubernetes, you half the time have to go stand up Kubernetes for them because it is still that hard for so many people to really adopt it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And maybe, like, talking more about, like, when it is the right decision to start on Kubernetes because I think the question I get sometimes is just, is it overkill? Is it too much for what we're building? Especially, like, if you're building a brand-new product, you're not even sure if it's going to get adopted that widely.
\n\nKENDALL: I mean, and I'm [laughs] curious your thought on this, Joe, but there's a good argument to be made that Heroku was enough for the vast majority of founders early on. But the thing is, Kubernetes isn't as hard as it used to be. Going and clicking a couple of buttons on GKE and deploying something into Kubernetes with GKE Autopilot running it's not as easy as Heroku, but it's not wildly far off. And it does substantially future-proof you.
\n\nSo, when is it too early? I'm not sure it's ever too early if you have an intention of scaling if you're planning on running some kind of legacy workload, like, things that are going to be stateful. Or maybe WordPress, for example, you don't probably need to deploy your WordPress blog onto Kubernetes. You can do that in your cPanel on Bluehost. I don't actually know if Bluehost even exists anymore, but I assume it's still a thing. I don't know, what would you say, Joe?
\n\nJOE: I agree with that. I think it's a hard first pill to swallow. But I think the reality is that it's very easy to underestimate the infrastructure needs of even an early product. Like, it doesn't really matter what you're building. You're still going to have things like secrets management. You're still going to have to worry about networking. They just don't go away. There's no way you have a product without them.
\n\nAnd so, rather than slowly solving all those problems from scratch on a platform that isn't designed for it, I think it's easier to just bite the bullet and use one of the managed solutions, especially, as you said, I think it's getting easier and easier. The activation energy from going from credit card to Kubernetes cluster is just getting lower.
\n\nKENDALL: And so, the role of the CTO is just getting easier and easier because they can just adopt the one technology, and it's obviously Kubernetes. And it's obviously Rust, right? [laughter] Yeah, no, I'm with you. And I think if you find somebody who knows Kubernetes inside and out, it's really not going to take them long to get started.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, once again, change management is the biggest challenge for any new innovation coming into adoption. So, I'm curious to talk more about the influence that you need and how you influence others to come around to these types of ideas, like, in the executive suite and with the leadership of a company, especially on these types of topics, which can feel maybe a little abstract for people.
\n\nKENDALL: How you influence them specifically to use Kubernetes, or just how you talk with them about technology adoption in general? Or what are you asking?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, like, how do I get people to not just turn their ears off when I say the word Kubernetes? [laughs]
\n\nKENDALL: Yeah, I mean, I think...so I think that's where it's the technologist's job and the role of the CTO to translate these things into business speak. And that's why I'm using words like future-proofing your infrastructure is because there are companies that...I know one company that made a conscious decision that they were going to try to re-platform every single year, and that is not a good idea or sustainable for the vast majority [laughs] of companies. In fact, I can't think of a single situation where that makes sense.
\n\nBut if you can say to the CFO, "Hey, it's going to cost us a little bit more right now. It's going to save us substantially in the long term because this is the thing that's winning. And if we go standardize on Heroku right now, every company does eventually have to migrate off of Heroku. They either go out of business, or they get too big for it." That's the kind of thing that needs to be communicated in order to get people to adopt it.
\n\nThey don't care what the word is. They don't care if you're saying Kubernetes; you know, most CFOs understand it about as well as my mom does. My mom tries to bring it up in conversation because she's heard me use it. And she thinks it makes her sound smart, which maybe it does in the right climate.
\n\nVICTORIA: My partner does the same thing. He says DevOps and Kubernetes all the time. I'm like; you don't know what you're talking about. [laughter]
\n\nJOE: Those words do not come up in my house.
\n\nKENDALL: One of my kids asked me to explain Kubernetes. And I do a whole talk, particularly at organizations where understanding Kubernetes is essential to the salespeople's role. And I give a whole talk about the background of how we got here from deploying on some servers in our back room. And, you know, what's different about the cloud, what containerization did, et cetera. And I have this long explanation. And I remember taking a deep breath and saying to my kids, "Do you really want to hear this?" And I had one son say, "Yes, absolutely." And my wife and three of the other kids all stood up and said, "No way," and left the room.
\n\nSo, when somebody asks me, "What do you do?" Actually, one of the key relationships I built with some of the early people at GCP when we were partnering closely with them was a person that I met, and I asked, "What do you do for a living?" And he said, "I can tell you, but it's not going to mean anything to you." And I was like, "That's what I say to people." And it turned out he was in charge of, you know, Kubernetes partnerships for Google. I can explain to you what it means and why it's important. But you're not going to be happy that I spent that time explaining it to you.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs] That sounds awesome, though. It sounds like you built a server rack just to demo to your children what it was.
\n\nKENDALL: No, no. I just talked back through the history of...that company that I mentioned that built Twitter about five years too early; we had a, you know, we had a server rack in the...literally physically in our closet that was serving up our product at the time.
\n\nVICTORIA: Probably the best demo I ever saw was at Google headquarters in Herndon, and someone had built...They had 3D-printed a little mini server rack that they had put Raspberry Pis onto, and then they had Kubernetes deployed on it. And they did an automatic failover of a node to just demo how it works and had little lights that went with it. It was pretty fun. So maybe you should get one for yourself. [laughter] It's a fun project.
\n\nKENDALL: They remember the things that it enables. They don't remember what it does. And so, when I say so, and so is a client that's using this technology, then they get real excited because they're like, "My dad makes that work." And I'm like, well, okay, that's kind of a stretch, but you get the idea.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, you got to lean into that kind of reputation in your house.
\n\nKENDALL: That's right.
\n\nVICTORIA: And you're like, yes, that's correct.
\n\nKENDALL: That's right. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: I do make Kubernetes. I make all the clouds work, yeah.
\n\nKENDALL: Actually, my most common explanation is Kubernetes is the plumbing of the internet. Unless you're a plumber, you don't care about the pipes. You just want your shit to flush when you use the toilet. You want the things to load when you click your buttons. You don't actually care what's going on behind the scenes, but this is what's orchestrating it increasingly across the internet.
\n\nVICTORIA: So far, we've called Kubernetes WordPress or the toilet. [laughs]
\n\nKENDALL: The plumbing.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nVICTORIA: You are really good at selling it.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nKENDALL: Hey, if you want to build a nice, clean city, you need good plumbing. You might not care what the pipes are made of, but you need good plumbing. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Works for me. On that note -- [laughs]
\n\nKENDALL: Yeah. Right? Right?
\n\nVICTORIA: That's [inaudible 36:41] on a high note. Is there anything else that you'd like to promote?
\n\nKENDALL: With regards to CTO Lunches, we have a free listserv. There are local lunches. If there isn't a local lunch where you are, it's very lightweight to start up a chapter. We often have folks who are willing to sponsor that first lunch to get you going. We do have a paid tier of CTO Lunches. If you want a small back room Slack channel of people to discuss, I think it's $99 a month.
\n\nYeah, if you're a CTO and/or a senior engineering leader and you want a community of people to process with, be it our free tier or our paid tier, we've got something for you. We're trying to invest in this to build community around it. And it's something we enjoy doing more than almost anything. Come take part.
\n\nVICTORIA: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Kendall Miller.
Sponsored By:
Alaina Percival is the Co-Founder and CEO of Women Who Code, with a mission to empower diverse women to excel in technology careers.
\n\nAlaina delves into the origin and mission of Women Who Code, highlighting its community building, free technical events, and collaboration with companies to promote diversity in hiring. Victoria adds her personal experience with the organization, emphasizing its positive impact on her career.
\n\nThey discuss the challenges faced while expanding Women Who Code, including the need for systems and processes to manage growth. Alaina recounts stories of discrimination faced by women in tech and stresses the need for continued support and encouragement. The conversation also touches on the financial benefits of diversity and the alignment of Valor Ventures with Women Who Code's values.
\n\nThis discussion offers a detailed look into the women in tech movement, the importance of community, and the drive to create a more equitable industry. It serves as a reflection on both the strides made in fostering diversity and the work still needed to create a truly inclusive technology field.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Alaina Percival, Venture Partner at Valor Ventures and Co-Founder and CEO of Women Who Code, with a mission to empower diverse women to excel in technology careers. Alaina, thank you for joining us.
\n\nALAINA: Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm thrilled to have you as well. I reached out. As you know, I was previously a Director of Women Who Code D.C. and helped to organize our DevOps and cloud series when I lived there. And it really had a huge impact on my career. So, I'm just super psyched to talk to you today. What's going on in your world, Alaina?
\n\nALAINA: So, in addition to my full-time job of working with Women Who Code, I'm also a mom of two young children, and so they're currently three and five. And so, it's summer. We've got summer camp. Every week is a different program with different details and things that you have to read and stay up on. It's a lot of additional project management added on over the summer. I'm looking forward to getting back to the school year, where I can kind of focus on just one role.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing. And I can totally relate because I have a four, a three, and a one-year-old. Yes, it's a different story when you have to, like you said, project manage around them. So, that's amazing that you're wearing so many hats, and you're doing that. Hats off to you.
\n\nALAINA: Same to you. [laughter]
\n\nWILL: Victoria, what about you? What's going on in your world?
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, it is summertime at the beach, so all the kids are out. [laughs] It's busy. But that means that you know, the weather is warming up. It's tempting to try to go surfing again, so we'll see if that ends up happening anytime soon. But no, I'm hanging out. I'm local. I'm kind of done traveling for a little bit, so not until I go out to Outer Banks to visit my baby niece and nephew in August. So that's where I'm at right now. I'm kind of hunkered in trying to survive without air conditioning here and get through the summer. [laughs]
\n\nWILL: You don't have AC?
\n\nVICTORIA: I do not. Yeah, there's a lot of houses around here just never were built with it. I have heat, but I have no air conditioning.
\n\nALAINA: Are you being hit with the heat wave that's happening?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes. But it's still very mild. We're spoiled here for sure on weather.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: It's like 77, and I'm like, ugh, it's so hot. [laughs]
\n\nWILL: I'm in Florida, and it amazes me. So, I got up early, around 7:00 o'clock, to go out for a run, and it's, like, 87 degrees. And it feels like almost 100 at 7:00 a.m. And I'm like --
\n\nVICTORIA: Oof.
\n\nWILL: How? [laughs] Like, the sun is barely out, and it's already reaching 100. So yeah.
\n\nALAINA: I feel you. I'm in Atlanta. Yesterday, I had an in-person meeting. Typically, we're entirely remote. So, I was wearing real pants [laughs], and it was a hard day. We're not quite as hot as Florida. We are in the low 90s. But yeah, this weather is for real.
\n\nWILL: Yes. [laughter]
\n\nVICTORIA: That is the...yeah, working in person again in a hot climate. [laughs] I forgot the challenges of that of, like, trying to navigate life while having to be fully clothed is difficult in that kind of weather. So, I'm glad. I hope you all find some ways to stay cool and to entertain your children [laughs] so that you have some sanity and can get through the summer. I've also been really interested in the European model of just taking five weeks off in the summer. Doesn't that sound nice?
\n\nWILL: Yes. [laughs]
\n\nALAINA: Yeah. I started my career off in Germany. I worked for Puma. Their headquarters is right outside of Nuremberg in a town called Herzogenaurach. And people really do take the whole month off August. And, in fact, you would even separate out the salaries. So, you got something called urlaubsgeld, which was vacation money. So, you would get kind of a little bonus going into August, and then everybody would take off. So, I agree with you. We should be doing that.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, we should be doing that. And I'm so excited. Maybe we can segue into, like, your background and how you got started. How did you go from there to founding Women Who Code?
\n\nALAINA: Yeah, so after working at Puma, I somewhat came back to the United States. I did a dual degree program, an MBA where I was studying between Atlanta, so I could get back in the United States, spend some time with my family, and then also the Sorbonne in Paris. And I did an MBA and a degree in organizational management, Master's in organizational management.
\n\nThen I went to work for really small ones, performance wear company. And that was more, like, a startup because you really had to think outside of the box. You know, you're a small $10 million a year company, and Nike and Mizuno, you know, these big companies are your competitors.
\n\nSo, I had the opportunity to move out to San Francisco. It was one of the cities that was always on my list of, hey, if you get a chance to do it, go for it. And I did. So, I moved out there, and I kind of hit a bit of a wall with my career, an unexpected wall because up until that point, I had just this really, you know, successful early career. I got out there, and they're, like, Puma. You know, you haven't worked for Microsoft, or Twitter, or Facebook, or Google. Who are you?
\n\nSo, I started learning to code just to transition my skill set to help me understand the culture and the language and just getting more involved in the tech community. And I was still struggling a little bit in figuring out my transition pathway and got more and more involved with Women Who Code and started, you know, spending my nights and weekends.
\n\nAnd finally, I was at a small startup that had gotten acquired, so I had my official tech credibility. And I went to work for one of the top technical recruiting firms, executive recruiting firms in the Bay Area, as their head of developer outreach. And I largely chose that role because they were allowing me to run their philanthropic arm, and I focused that around supporting underrepresented communities, you know, get a leg up in the tech community. And then, while I was there, I was working with CTOs, vice presidents of engineering, directors of engineering on a day-to-day basis.
\n\nAnd I started learning what they were doing in their career to help develop and cultivate the success that they were having, and I started bringing that knowledge and programming into Women Who Code. And that's where our mission around seeing diverse women excel in technology careers came about is, you know, that piece of retaining and seeing diverse women excelling was an area that wasn't really the focus at the time. And I feel like it sounds funny now because it's such a big piece of conversation. But that was the beginning.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, it's so interesting that your experience from being in a startup and then how you moved up into being really involved in the hiring and the process of how women...how anyone would actually, like, move up in their career led you to have that background to found Women Who Code. And for people who maybe don't know, [laughs] no, I certainly know what it is. Can you talk a little bit more about what it offers to women and what it offers to companies who are looking to hire diverse women?
\n\nALAINA: For individuals, we are the largest and most active community of diverse technologists. We have close to 350,000 members. We're serving members across 147 countries. And we're producing close to 2,000 free technical events every single year, so that's about an average of 5 per day.
\n\nOnce those events take place, if you happen to miss them if you happen to not be in a location where they're having them in person, we're putting a lot of that on our YouTube channel. So, you can go back when you have time, when you're available, still invest in yourself and learn some of these technical and career-related skills.
\n\nYou can also, you know, when you think about, say, the 2,000 talks that are being delivered at Women Who Code, the majority of them are being led by and delivered by diverse technologists. So, we're creating role models and helping people who are on their career path have a sense of belonging, see a pathway to success. People who are thinking about the career path see themselves represented as thought leaders, as leaders in the tech industry. And that sense of belonging, that sense of drive, is just so important to be able to continue on in your career.
\n\nBut we work with companies. So, Women Who Code is dedicated to accessibility. All of our programming is free or scholarship accessible. And so, what we do is we work with companies, and we do this for two reasons: for programmatic reasons. Because we know that if companies develop strong diversity, equity, and inclusion, and belonging practices, that we will reach our mission and vision so much faster than if we work with every individual in the world. But it also creates an opportunity for us to be able to support the community.
\n\nSo, we work with companies to sponsor Women Who Code to donate to support Women Who Code's programming. We have our first-ever walk coming up, so a walk, run, roll called Women Who Code to the Finish Line. And we're going to be having that in September of this year. And that's going to be an opportunity for the stakeholders. You know, often, people who aren't in our community but absolutely support us say, "How can we help?" And so, companies can form teams and go and walk, run, roll to change the face of the tech industry.
\n\nRight now, we're also in a position where the tech industry has been doing a lot of layoffs, so there's a lot of instability. And so, when that happens, our programming thrives. So, people are coming to our events in high numbers. People are participating in our programming. People are visiting our job board. It's the time when companies are stepping back and pulling back on their funding and things like that.
\n\nSo, I just encourage every single company to...if you have a great technical job open, make sure you're sharing it with the Women Who Code community because we have incredible technologists. They deserve access to companies that are willing to support them and the best roles that are available in the industry today.
\n\nWILL: Alaina, I just want to honestly and truly say this, what you're doing is amazing. Having a background in nonprofit, over 140 companies, over 300,000 in your membership, and it's an international nonprofit. It's truly amazing what you're doing and helping women find their role and help them become better.
\n\nI'm truly just blown away by, you know, you started in September 2011, so you're coming up on 12 years this year. And just 12 years as a nonprofit and doing this, share with us how was it received at the very beginning? Because I feel like that was a different time that we're in right now.
\n\nALAINA: Yeah, it started off as a meetup, just a community group in San Francisco. And it was incredible. It felt like our little secret. And we were spending time together. We were learning. We were building connections. And just it was this incredible community. And then, the world started talking about, hey, we need to teach girls to code. We need to teach women to code. And we were this community of people in the industry. Our average age at Women Who Code is 30, so 50% of our members are currently in technical roles.
\n\nSo, we had this moment of, hey, we need to elevate the voice of those who are in the industry right now, alongside teaching girls to code and teaching women to code. Because if you miss out on that, it actually becomes a threat to the women in the industry who, every time you hear "Teach women to code," you're saying she doesn't already know how to do it. And we had so many people in our community who already did and already had to kind of prove themselves on a regular basis or constantly underestimated.
\n\nIn the early years, a Women Who Code leader who told me that she was managing a booth at a conference, and everyone was an engineer except for one recruiter, and the recruiter's name was Brian. Someone walked up to her and said, "Are you Brian?" Because it was easier to imagine that her name was Brian than that she was one of the engineers at the table.
\n\nAnd so, kind of going through this, we said, hey, we need to elevate our voices. We need to elevate the needs of women in the industry. And it feels being in it day by day, that nothing's happening. But when you look back over 13-15 years, you see that parental leave policies have improved significantly, that we see numbers in leadership going up across the board, that it's part of the conversation that relatively standard and tech companies to have DEI roles within the organization, within the people team. And so, these are not enough. It's just the beginning. But it is a lot that's taken place over the past 10 to 15 years.
\n\nVICTORIA: I agree. And I can relate as someone who was a project manager working in a technology space. Was it back in, like, 2013 or something? And you'd go to tech meetups, and most likely, I would be the only woman there. [laughs] But then, with Women Who Code, my friend invited me to go to a Ruby event, and it was, you know, all women. [laughs]. There was a woman who was even giving the instruction. And so, that was just a really cool feeling after having been out networking and feeling kind of isolated to really find a lot of people who are similar to you.
\n\nAnd I remember part of the narrative at that time when we were talking about increasing inclusion and diversity in technology; there was a narrative that, well, there just aren't as many women in tech. And being a part of Women Who Code, I could be able to, like, answer back to say, "Well, there actually is a lot of women in tech."
\n\nAnd it's the bigger problem that women would get started because they're interested in the industry and having good careers, but then they would fall out midway. So, there just wasn't enough progression in their careers. There wasn't enough support on the parental leave side, or there just wasn't enough community to keep people interested, like, when you're the only one. And many of our members they were the only women in their company, and then Women Who Code was where they found people they could really connect with.
\n\nSo, I just think it's interesting that it solves a particular problem where we would have women who are just interested in learning to code who would come to our events. And then, we had women who were actively coding in their jobs and teaching others in these leadership roles within the community to advance their own careers. And that's certainly what I did, and how I broke into executive leadership was, like, I'm a director at Women Who Code and I've got all this other leadership experience. And I'm bringing that network with me. It really increases your value to employers and demonstrates your leadership abilities.
\n\nALAINA: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. The program which we kind of fell into, it's our volunteers, is our program that I'm actually most proud of at Women Who Code. And it's probably because I get to know our volunteers because I know so many people's lives and careers are impacted by our programming.
\n\nBut that leadership development, that practice-based leadership that our volunteers are able to obtain, the doors that get open, and just like you said, it opened doors. And I remember it hit me when one of our volunteers told me she was interviewing with SpaceX. And one of the reasons they said they were excited to talk to her was because of her Women Who Code leadership experience. And I just thought to myself, we're doing something right. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, absolutely. And I think maybe part of Will's question before, too, is, like, did it always feel like you were doing something right? Or did it all just come together naturally? Or what kind of bumps did you initially hit when you were getting things off the ground?
\n\nALAINA: Yeah. When we first got started and realized, hey, we need to make Women Who Code more accessible, we were doing everything in a very manual way. We needed to adapt to building systems and processes, and that's not the fun part of running a volunteer organization. And when you're moving so fast, it means slowing things down a little bit to be able to make sure that you can do things better, more consistently, more efficiently, but it's so critical.
\n\nAnd so, I would say we kind of launched outside of the Bay Area in a couple of cities. And it just snowballed until we expanded into 20 to 40 more cities within probably a year outside of that. And we just really needed to catch up on creating systems and processes, which is not beautiful at all, but it's an important part of running a real business, a real company.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing. First off, I just want to say I am so sorry that the world we live in looks down upon women or anybody. So, I'm just so sorry that, like, the story you said about Brian, asking the lady that. I feel like that's so disrespectful. I am so sorry if you ever got treated that way or anything like that.
\n\nAnd so, I was going to ask this question, and then I kind of answered it. But the question was, do you think women are at a place to where kind of equal in tech? And I kind of answered my own question and said, "No." And so, I want to reframe it. What do you think it will take to continue to help the women get to that level of where it should be?
\n\nALAINA: It's going to take a lot of things. But the fastest and easiest way to create more equality for women and girls in the tech industry is by investing and supporting the incredible talent that is in the industry today. We need them to thrive. We need them to stay in their careers. We need them to become leaders with power and influence to create more equity in the industry so that when future generations are coming in, they're coming into an industry that is less broken for them, that is more welcoming, that shows and demonstrates more opportunity.
\n\nThis is one of the most exciting and innovative industries to be a part of. So many things are being shaped and built for the first time that are systems that are going to be the foundations for years or centuries to come. And so, it's more important now than ever for us to be thinking about bringing equity into that so we're not dealing with technical debt, where we're starting from a system that has more equality to it.
\n\nVICTORIA: I really appreciate that perspective. And I'm curious how that relates to your work at Valor Ventures as well.
\n\nALAINA: Valor Ventures is very aligned with the values of Women Who Code, which is why I chose it. I am passionate about creating more equality and opportunity for diverse individuals to thrive and succeed in general but via the tech industry. And so, when I move into focusing on entrepreneurs and focusing on seeing diverse entrepreneurs succeed in building thriving organizations, I see an opportunity to have someone who will be thinking earlier about the policies and the practices that are going to build more equitable teams, products that are really for all of their users.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think that's a great mindset. And it reminds me that when we talked about, like, the importance of diversity, and equity, and inclusion, that it's not purely a moral thing, even though morally we know we want to support and be inclusive, but that it's also good business strategy [laughs], just by the value of having different perspectives and different types of people, and then being able to have your products be accessible for a diverse group as well, right?
\n\nALAINA: Yeah, the data shows teams that are diverse are smarter. Companies that have women represented in leadership they have a stronger ROI. There's business reason behind it. There's certainly a social-moral reason that it just should take place. But, you know, if you need to come back to your shareholders or your investors, there's financial data around it.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I totally agree on all that, like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
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\n\nWILL: What have you seen hold back women in this space? And the reason I'm asking this question is because there are some biases out there, and, at times, we don't even realize it. For example, I know we have parental leave. And before I had kids, I didn't understand parental leave at all. But then, now that I have kids, I'm like, oh, it is not even close to being enough time during that time, you know, four or five hours of sleep at night, just all those things.
\n\nSo, in your experience, what have you seen? And hopefully, we can use this as a learning opportunity for anybody that just may be blind to it. What have you seen that kind of holds it back?
\n\nALAINA: That's holding back, like, implementing specific policies and practices or?
\n\nWILL: Yes, holding back the policies, or maybe women not being as prevalent in tech roles any of those areas.
\n\nALAINA: So, sort of two different approaches with that is I'm optimistic. I think most companies, yes, they care about the bottom line, but they want to be doing the right thing if it's easy. Leaders like me we need to put pressure on companies making better decisions. But also, industry leaders and organizations out there need to be able to make it easier for companies to make the decisions that are going to create more equity inside of their organization.
\n\nI know that's taking the responsibility off of them a little bit. But companies won't make commitments. They won't do the hard things if they don't know how to do it. And so, the easier that we can make it for them to make the right decision, the more likely they are to make the right decision.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think that people want to do the right thing if it's easy is a really succinct way to explain a lot of, like, social and moral [laughs] issues right now, right? Most people generally want to do the right thing, but it can be complex.
\n\nI'm curious about, speaking of complexity, for Women Who Code, going through, you know, being an organization that was built around in-person events, and then having COVID happen, so, like, what were some of the challenges of the last few years and changes that you experienced along the way?
\n\nALAINA: Yeah, when COVID hit, that was a big moment for the whole world. It was certainly really hard for organizations that rely on in-person activities. You know, our major conference supplied a third of our operating revenue. Our members were going to, you know, close to 2,000 in-person events. And so, we had to adapt just like everyone else. The organizations and the companies that adapted were the ones that thrived.
\n\nSo, we had to completely retrain all of our volunteers from doing in-person events to be able to create digital events for our community. We had to figure out how to produce major events, and conferences, and hackathons and do it in a remote way. And then, of course, there's the day-to-day that absolutely everyone had, and that was, you know, just your team went from meeting in person to everyone being remote.
\n\nAnd some of the great things that came out about that is we were serving members in about 26 countries and about 80 cities, and now we serve members in 147 countries. It just made it accessible that if you don't happen to be in a location where an event is happening and you also don't happen to have childcare, be able to participate, that you are still able to participate in an online setting.
\n\nAnd then, what we saw with being able to start moving more of, you know, those talks that were being delivered to our YouTube channel, it then became even more accessible. People spent about five years of life watching our YouTube trainings, and that's time people are investing in themselves. And when I say they did it, and I'm talking about in 2022. So, our YouTube channel, our trainings, they continue to grow, and then our online events continue to happen. But luckily, now we are able to start going back in person.
\n\nAnd it's, again, just so amazing to be able to see the people you haven't seen in a long time, feel that feeling that is just a little bit different for an in-person event.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing. So, from, say, 2019, 2020 to now, it went from 80 countries to over 140, just because of the pivot to go more, like, YouTube and tech. Is that kind of what you're saying about the growth of it?
\n\nALAINA: Yeah, so about 80 cities, so about 25 countries to serving members in 147 countries.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing.
\n\nALAINA: Yeah, a tremendous amount of growth and creating accessibility around the globe. Previously, we were really only able to focus on tech hubs that had an ecosystem to support it. But, you know, just because you're from a rural area of your state or from a country in the Global South, you still deserve access to this incredible community and all of the free accessible programming that Women Who Code has to offer.
\n\nWhen we have a conference, we have people from 88 countries participating. And when you sign into the networking session, you're going to hop on the phone with someone from Nigeria, someone from Bangladesh, someone from your same city, and it's just such an incredible experience to be able to have that global focus and reach.
\n\nWILL: Wow, that is so amazing. So, let's talk about right now. What does your next milestone look like, you know, in the next six months or next year? What does that look like for you?
\n\nALAINA: As I mentioned before, one of the big challenges we've had this year is our programming is going so, so well, but our funding has pulled back a little bit. And so, we're working to diversify our revenue strategy a little bit and have a traditional nonprofit walk that we've never done before. And it's a remote walk, so anyone all over the world can participate just like you can with our digital events.
\n\nBut this has been something new for us. Because when we went through it during COVID, again, you know, you'd get on the call with all of your partners. You know, the world is going through something, and you kind of say, oh yeah, we're in it together. But you don't see the grace that you saw in 2020 and sort of the camaraderie, and we're in this together, and we're going to give you space and support you, you know, in every way that we can that, you know, is just really missing this time around. You know, we have members who absolutely need support in their careers right now. And so, it's navigating through something different.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And I guess talking more about inclusivity, like, we have all this free content, and it is Women Who Code. But I remember when I was an organizer, I had a few people ask me, "Well if I'm a man, can I come to your event?" And I was like, "Yes, it's open to everyone," right? Like, it's promoting women, and it's about women growing in their careers. And certainly, if that's not also your intention with attending the event, you should keep that in mind and make sure you're leaving space for other people.
\n\nBut I also really appreciated that it's open for everyone and that it's open for everyone who is in the women umbrella, and being intentional about that, and that it's inclusive of everyone who relates to being a woman, right?
\n\nALAINA: Yeah. Women Who Code welcomes all genders. We, you know, really struggle with our name from a brand perspective because it isn't as inclusive as we'd like it to be. So, actually, after we say our name, we try not to repeat the word women anywhere else. From the beginning, been dedicated to having an open, accessible community. But we definitely require, you know, that you are following our code of conduct, that you're there for the intended purpose of the event. And we want to make sure that we're protecting our community.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, I really appreciate that. And I appreciate...it sounds like a value organization that I'm with. I always look for those things that that's what we're really promoting.
\n\nThere's been so many changes that have happened with Women Who Code and in your career. If you could go back in time and give yourself some advice when you were first getting started, what would you tell yourself?
\n\nALAINA: If I was going back and thinking about what I would tell myself in the beginning, I'd probably tell myself to focus on data sooner. Coming from the history of being a meetup group to transitioning to being a global nonprofit, we dragged our feet around focusing on data impact, and really, it's because we're constantly doing so much programming. We're always doing so many things, and anything you add on is an extra thing to do. And so, I would say focus on the data much sooner.
\n\nVICTORIA: I can speak to there being a lot of events. I remember back in the heyday in D.C., it was, like, algorithms on Tuesdays and Ruby on Thursdays, and then next week, it would be DevOps. And there was just always something going on. And I thought that was so cool. And I really appreciate just really everyone who is involved in putting on those programs. I really want to emphasize, too, like, the value for companies working with Women Who Code. And what do they get out of the partnership, and how can they really engage with the community?
\n\nALAINA: Yeah. So, companies that work with us, it's a partnership. They are there to support the community, and that's what they have to do to really develop trust. And we're going to make sure that we're guiding them in that process. So, if we see an opportunity for them to engage in a more authentic way, we're going to point that out. But companies are often hiring from our community; that's one of the big reasons, not just through our job board because our members are unicorns. They're diverse technologists, and everyone wants to hire them.
\n\nAnd so, you can just say, "Hey, come work for me." But really, they want you to explain who's on the team? What are the exciting projects, and what are the exciting technologies that your company is building? So that they can actually identify that your company is an organization that they would want to work for before just applying for a job. And that's what a lot of our partnership creates space for.
\n\nSo, maybe getting an opportunity to join our podcast and tell the story and get to know some of the diverse leadership team or diverse engineering team, learn about some of your, like, commitment to DEI and things like that. Because when a senior engineer receives multiple job outreaches, they're going to respond to the one that they've heard of, that they already know is a good company, that they know is supporting and investing in building equity into the tech ecosystem. That's going to go a long way in them deciding to reply.
\n\nWILL: That's awesome. Earlier, you mentioned being inclusive of all the members. I think I know the answer, but I just want to double-check. If I want to volunteer, am I able to volunteer at Women Who Code?
\n\nALAINA: Yes, absolutely. If you visit our website...and we just updated our website, so I encourage everyone to go visit womenwhocode.com today. It's looking different than it has over the past five years. There's a sign-up to volunteer. You would be absolutely welcome, Will.
\n\nWILL: Awesome. And, as a volunteer, what would that look like? What could I get involved in? What areas?
\n\nALAINA: You could decide to be a speaker. You could apply to be a network leader. You could become a lead in a particular technology area. We have six technical tracks. Our tracks are cloud, data science, Python, mobile. When [inaudible 32:53] hears about it, we will have emerging technologies track that was expanded from our blockchain community this year. And then, we also have a career track as well. So, you can become a lead focused on one of those particular areas in our digital communities. You can get engaged with the Women Who Code community in many different ways.
\n\nWe also have some really cool programs like mentor me and buddy system, so getting involved in those. Building long-form connections or long-time connections with individuals in the community really helps to create a sense of belonging and start to build trust and an opportunity to exchange knowledge.
\n\nVICTORIA: I always really appreciated people who were, like, "Do you need a space to host your meetup?" Or "Do you want us to buy you pizza for your meetup?" [laughs] Those are very easy ways to engage. And it's true that the membership does see and pay attention to, like, who is regularly getting involved in committing to this, and it makes a difference in your brand and reputation.
\n\nALAINA: Absolutely. The companies that work with us absolutely hire from the Women Who Code community. I'll give two examples. So, one of the most exciting examples was we had an event at a company, and they sort of were connecting in an authentic way, not, like, an interview way, but they essentially were doing an early interview with people who were there. And so I remember that it took place on Tuesday, and they had a job offer on Friday at the company that they were at. So, they were just able to move so quickly and hire someone from our community.
\n\nAnd then, ages ago, Snapchat was at our first-ever conference, and they had hired four or six people at that event. And it was just so cool to see that we're not a recruiting agency, so we really just rely on either individuals or companies to tell us when they have these amazing career outcomes. So, every time we hear about it, it's always exciting to me.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's super cool. And I wonder, what is the thing you're most excited about coming up for Women Who Code this year?
\n\nALAINA: We have CONNECT Asia taking place later on this year, and so that's our major technical conference with a focus in the Asia market. It's going to be just really, really exciting. We haven't had one since pre-COVID. It's still going to be a remote event. We had CONNECT LATAM, so our first-ever conference focused on Latin America last year. And this year, it's focused on Asia. So, it's really exciting to get back and provide some support to our regional audiences and really showcase some of the incredible talent and leadership coming out of those regions.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing. So, the question I have for you, and it's easy to assume this question, but I want to hear from you because I know you talked about, at the beginning, how it was when you started the nonprofit. But what is the wind in your sails? Like, what keeps you motivated and going? It sounds like it's an easy answer, but just from your heart, what motivates you?
\n\nALAINA: Oh, it is absolutely the stories that I hear, like I said, especially from our volunteers. So, the Mexico City volunteer who, in under a year, told me her salary increased 200%. The director from Toronto, you know, when she stepped up, was an individual contributor, and under one year, she made it to director level, and today she's a vice president.
\n\nSo, when I think of the career impacts that are taking place for our members, and every single time I hear about it, it drives me to wake up. It drives me to work harder. It drives me to deliver better program and just makes me completely connected to what we do as an organization.
\n\nVICTORIA: What a great benefit. And for myself, personally, it absolutely has been a factor in the last, like, two jobs I've gotten. [laughs] They're like, "Oh, you are a director at Women Who Code? That's so interesting." So, I really appreciate everything that you've done and happy to be a part of that. And my personal network, I know many women who have been through that and benefited immensely from having that networking community. And really, even just being able to see yourself and know that you belong in the industry, I think, is really, really important.
\n\nALAINA: I'm sure I'm going to be telling your story the next time someone asks me.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. No, please do. And let's see; we're wrapping up at the end of our time here. Is there anything else that you would like to promote?
\n\nALAINA: Yeah, please visit womenwhocode.com. If you have technical jobs available, please post them to the Women Who Code job board. Again, it's just womenwhocode.com/jobs. Join our community. Check out our amazing, new, beautiful website, and follow us on social media @WomenWhoCode.
\n\nVICTORIA: Love that. Thank you so much for joining us today.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nWILL: And you can find me @will23larry.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Alaina Percival.
Sponsored By:
Introducing thoughtbot's ongoing maintenance service. Need reliable support and maintenance for your software? Look no further. Our expert team handles upgrades, bug fixes, UI adjustments, and new feature development. And the best part? Our maintenance packages start at just 5k per month for companies of all sizes.
\n\nFrom Ruby on Rails to Node, React, and, yes, even PHP, we've got you covered. Trust thoughtbot for top-notch support and optimized performance.
\n\nTo receive a custom quote, contact sales@thoughtbot.com.
\n\nMarc Mar-Yohana is the CEO and Founder of OtisHealth, a personal health application and platform for patient-caregiver engagement, population health, and clinical research.
\n\nThe conversation revolves around the origin and working principles of OtisHealth, a healthcare app designed to consolidate health information. Marc was motivated to start the app following the tragic death of his eight-year-old daughter, Constance, from an undiagnosed brain tumor. Despite being under the care of multiple health providers, the fragmentation of her medical data meant they missed the signs of her condition.
\n\nMarc has dedicated his life to developing better tools for families and caregivers to manage their loved one's health. He aimed to create a unified system where all health data could be gathered, enabling caregivers, patients, and medical providers to see the whole picture. OtisHealth allows patients to integrate data from different sources, including wearable devices, and capture information outside clinical settings.
\n\nThe initial outreach strategy of OtisHealth through consumer channels was slow to get traction. The company switched to recruiting through organizations with health interests, such as health insurers or "payers," leading to a significant increase in users. Although not everyone uses the app daily, it is a crucial health management tool for those with chronic illnesses or emergencies.
\n\nThe trustworthiness of OtisHealth is demonstrated through accreditation from the Electronic Healthcare Network Accreditation Commission, indicating that their practices meet or exceed federal regulatory requirements and industry guidelines. This, along with community outreach and educational content, helped build trust with users.
\n\nMarc's diverse corporate background gave him the skill set to lead OtisHealth, emphasizing the importance of team development and collaboration with other organizations, even competitors, to move the mission forward.
\n\n__
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Marc Mar-Yohana, CEO and Founder of OtisHealth, a personal health application and a platform for patient-caregiver engagement, population health, and clinical research. Marc, thank you for joining me.
\n\nMARC: Victoria, I'm honored to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me to join you on this podcast.
\n\nVICTORIA: You're welcome. I'm excited to have you. So, why don't you just tell me a little bit about what's going on in your world right now?
\n\nMARC: Well, OtisHealth is keeping me pretty busy. So, I live in Northern California. My team is mostly in California, a little bit in Illinois. And we're busy every day, both supporting our members and working with clients. And so, it's exciting times, especially on our advocacy front. We work with organizations across the country to advocate for patient access to their health records and also for individuals themselves to improve their access to quality healthcare wherever they reside in the United States.
\n\nThe advocacy, the work with our clients, and the work with our members keeps us super busy. Although I do still try to make time to hike in the beautiful scenery out here. I'm new to California. I'm originally from Illinois, so it's great to just be able to get out every once in a while for a hike in the area.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's wonderful. Have you made it to any redwood forest out there?
\n\nMARC: Yeah, Muir Woods, which is just north of us, north of the San Francisco Bay Area. Most of the time, we like to walk the coastline. So just north of Santa Cruz is a great state park known as Wilder State Ranch. And they have amazing views of the coastline, wonderful views of birds, as well as occasionally spotting whales, and dolphins, and sea otters along the coast.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's so cool. I had a friend, actually, who just went up there and went kayaking with the otters, and I'm very jealous. [laughter] It sounds beautiful.
\n\nMARC: Yeah, that can be fun. Otters are really cute creatures. And they can be aggressive too. There's a concern right now. There's one female otter that likes to grab people's surfboards. And I saw a video of a sea lion jumping on top of a sea kayak to steal a fish from a fisherman.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think if a sea otter or a sea lion wanted my vessel, a kayak or surfboard, I mean, you can have it. [laughter] You worked this hard. [laughs]
\n\nMARC: Yeah, they're pretty aggressive. They're more comfortable in the water than we are, so they [laughs] pretty much are in charge in the environment.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's right. We're in their house, right? So, I'm, like, okay, [laughs] you can have it. That's great. Oh, wonderful. I'm glad you still have time to get outside and enjoy hiking with your family, even though you're a very busy founder [chuckles] and very active advocate for your community. So, why don't you tell me how everything with OtisHealth got started?
\n\nMARC: So, it started with a tragedy, a horrible tragedy in my life. My daughter, Constance, who was eight years old at the time and had been previously diagnosed with autism, apraxia of speech, and epilepsy, died from an undiagnosed brain tumor. She had great healthcare. She had a neurologist, a pediatrician. She had therapists that saw her five days a week and, of course, her parents watching over her. Yet, we all missed the symptoms, the major illness that claimed her life.
\n\nAnd so, because all of her healthcare providers were on different systems, and as parents, we didn't have a system, there wasn't a place to put our observations together. And everyone attributed their observations of her changing condition to other medical concerns. And so, after she passed, I started to spend a couple of years trying to understand what happened. And I realized a big part of it was the information was in front of us. It was just in different people's hands. And when we put it together, we could have seen the whole picture that would have shown that she had a more serious illness.
\n\nAnd so I chose a new mission in my life: to abandon my corporate career and move into this role of developing a better set of tools for families and caregivers to manage their loved one's health. And so, our mission today is to work with families, caregivers, and people with chronic illness to give them better tools to manage their everyday health and the health of their loved ones, and thereby also improving lives in the community.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, I love that out of the tragedy, you were able to find direction and purpose to solve this major problem, which I can relate to having moved across the country. Your medical records don't come with you. You have to basically kind of start all over, or they have to go get them from your past patients. It's not unified as a system, as you might think that is. [laughs]
\n\nMARC: That's absolutely right. Our data is spread out across different clinical sources. Just in the time I moved out here to California from Chicago, I saw five different providers just because I wanted to get some tests done. So, I had to go to a few different locations to do a normal battery of tests. And so, I had at least five different health records created just when I moved out here. And they're all in different systems, and they're not even on the same type of application.
\n\nSo, to bring them together, I had to basically download them and put them in files on my desktop computer. With OtisHealth, I'm able to retrieve that data and put it onto one continuous record and watch it. But that's still just our clinical data, meaning data collected in clinical settings. We have more data to share of things that you and I observe as regular people or our families observe. And so, the part that's missing in the record is all the observations in the time that we're not in the physician, in a physician's office, or in the presence of a clinician.
\n\nWe can; with our tools today, such as wearable watches, or blood pressure cuffs that are Bluetooth-connected, we can get a lot more data and share that back into our records so that we have a true baseline, not the once-a-year that I go to see a physician, and they say my blood pressure is high. And the next time I go, it's low. It's because we only have two data points over two years. Where today, with our technology and our capabilities, we can have a baseline of true data continuously throughout the year that will give the physician or care team more insights into how we're doing in terms of our health.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's so interesting. And it makes a lot of sense to me why someone would want to use this or why doctors would want to use this. And I'm curious, once you had this idea, how did you get that initial traction to get started with OtisHealth?
\n\nMARC: Initially, it was a little difficult. And this is kind of part of our lessons learned when we started the company. We started advertising on Facebook. This is after we launched the product. So, we launched in 2021. We had the idea that we were going to make this available to a lot of people. We knew a lot of folks that needed it. It was okay to get the first 100 or so people because there were folks that we knew needed the application or folks that were curious about it and wanted to try it.
\n\nAnd we started advertising through consumer channels such as Facebook, and LinkedIn, and other magazines to people that we knew had the need for the app. Yet, it was a very slow uptake. And the part of what we learned and we started applying to our marketing or our membership development or recruitment thesis is that the health records are kind of like an umbrella.
\n\nWe don't think about the umbrella or going out to get an umbrella until it's raining, and for most people, it doesn't rain very often. And so, it's not something that people would use every day. In most cases, they use it only when they have an emergency or when they're managing their chronic illness or the chronic illness of a loved one.
\n\nAnd so, we eventually changed the way we were recruiting and started recruiting through other organizations, such as clients where we're able to get thousands of users through the client that has members. And then, slowly, over time, teach them the importance of managing their everyday health, and taking their own vitals, and recording that, and they record for themselves and their family.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. So, you were able to offer the app for free for daily users because you found another group that was interested in having access to the data and having this app, right?
\n\nMARC: Yeah. So, anybody today can go to the Apple Store or the Google Play Store and they could download the app for free. And they can use the web version also. And they could share it with friends and family, which I always encourage people to do. So, if you have an emergency contact, invite them to your medical records; at least they have your basic medications, and allergies, and other key information in case of an emergency.
\n\nWhat we did in terms of our change of strategy early on is we started going to organizations that also had an interest in improving the health of their population and, in particular, health insurers or what we call in the industry payers. And so, payer organizations could be Medicaid, Medicare, or it could be employee health plan, one of the big health insurance companies like Blue Cross or UnitedHealthcare. They have an interest in people managing their everyday health.
\n\nAnd so, one of our clients right now, everyone that enrolls in one of their plans automatically gets enrolled in a version of OtisHealth specifically for their members. And those members could still invite people to join them on the platform, and those people can get on with OtisHealth. But the nice thing is now this payer has a way to both encourage healthier activity or healthier practices for their population and monitor if there's a problem. So, if somebody is missing medications, or not taking their medications on time, or has vitals that are tracking poorly, this gives the payer an opportunity to reach out and ask them if they need help managing their health.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, how does that dynamic affect how you measure successful engagement on the platform, like, a successful rate of engagement?
\n\nMARC: So, for us, most people don't use the app every day. Most of us don't even think about our health [laughs] on a daily basis from a standpoint of our medical health or clinical health. Sometimes those of us that exercise regularly think about it in those terms or eating healthy. But we don't think about keeping a record or using an app to maintain our health.
\n\nAnd so, for us, an active user is anybody that's logging in at least once a month to update their information. Our really great users are the ones who are using the reminder features to take supplements or take their medications. And so, I would say of the few thousand users that we have—we're approaching 10,000 right now active users—only a small percentage of those, maybe 10%, are actually using it on a daily basis for themselves or their family.
\n\nAnd so, for us, a good engagement and good practice is folks setting reminders on at least a weekly basis to take vitals, weigh themselves—something that would help them track their health over time—and if they're taking medications, to set daily reminders for the medications that they take. And so, we currently have far more people enrolled in OtisHealth and that, you know, 5,000, 6000 I mentioned that are active. But they basically bought the umbrella, and they just put it in their closet. They're waiting for that rainy day that they have to pull it out and start using it.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. And I'm already in my head going through the people in my family who would benefit from this where, you know, I have family members who have a learning and a physical disability, and tracking everything that they're supposed to be doing to maintain their health is quite difficult. So, I can definitely see the value in that and why people would want to use it.
\n\nAnd I think for, you know, healthcare apps, you have to build this high level of trust. You know, people are giving you all this data about their health information. So, how do you go about building a product that people can trust from the beginning?
\n\nMARC: One of the things we sort early in the life of OtisHealth is an accreditation. An accreditation is not required by law. It's not required by any institution necessarily. It's a third party that reviews our practices and our systems to see if we're actually following good privacy and security standards and practices.
\n\nAnd so we went live in November of 2021, and by the end of December of 2021, we already had our full accreditation in what's called a comprehensive level from a national established organization known as The Electronic Healthcare Network Accreditation Commission.
\n\nAnd so, that was the first step of making sure that folks understood that we took their privacy and security seriously. That accreditation means that our practices and our technology meets or exceeds federal regulatory requirements and industry guidelines. And that's just the first step.
\n\nThen after that, it's really a matter of people gain their trust because an accreditation itself doesn't necessarily mean that we trust that brand. That's just a basic starting point for us. After that, we publish articles about maintaining health. We have launched some videos about different aspects of our advocacy, such as with autism for caregivers. And we participate in community activities at the national level to improve patient access and to talk about how important it is to manage our own health and the health of our loved ones.
\n\nAnd so, it's a combination of both basic accreditations that show that we made the investment, and we provided a third party to critique us and to review us. And we actively maintain that accreditation is not a one-time stamp. And then, the second part is continuous outreach, and letting the community know what we're working on, what's important to us, so that, over time, they start to look at what we do and start to trust it and invite other people to trust it as well.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. And I'm curious if there were experiences from your corporate career that informed how you acted as a founder and what you prioritized.
\n\nMARC: I've had an odd corporate career. [laughs] So, I started my career as an engineer in manufacturing operations and in product development and then went down to as a consultant strategy in ops and market management, and then, later, investment management and private equity, and then, later, for a safety science company where I was managing global capital investments in technology and new operations.
\n\nAnd so, I've been fortunate that I've had a breadth of experience, from marketing to sales, to product and technology development, and infrastructure management. So, I had some basic skills that helped me understand what...well, the endeavor before I jumped into it because I spent a couple of years thinking about whether or not I even wanted to do something like this.
\n\nAnd then, I would say probably the most important part of my previous experience that I apply every day at OtisHealth is developing teams and developing collaboration with different organizations. You know, aside from the team that I have, our own staff, we also work very closely with other organizations, even competitors, to make sure that we're all successful.
\n\nAnd so, that collaboration across organizations that don't even have a necessarily contractual relationship is something that I brought over from my previous work and seeing how working across the industry, we can help each other and serve the mission. So, I think that was probably the most important part of my previous work experience that I apply today is this: building a team and building a coalition of organizations that want to move forward together.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. And I'm wondering if there was anything that surprised you in that early phase of building collaboration with other companies and understanding your users that changed the strategic direction you were going with in the app.
\n\nMARC: So, one of the things that I was really just in awe of was how willing people in the healthcare industry were to jump in and help out when we started talking. And so, many of the organizations that we work with, the founders or the senior staff within the nonprofits we work with, all have a story of why they're doing what they're doing. Many are brilliant people who could have taken their careers in many different directions, not in healthcare. And they chose to move forward in healthcare because of some personal experience in their life.
\n\nAnd so, as I learned about the people I was working with, I was surprised how quickly they just took me under their wing and said, "Hey, let's get you started marketing. Let's move OtisHealth forward." And so, we have organizations like Onyx and Invitae [SP] that are giving us support in data access. There's another organization that I can't mention yet; that's another private entity that has offered their support, and we hope to launch with them in the next couple of weeks. And so, we're forming these data access bridges to help get patients more access to their data, their loved ones' data.
\n\nAnd then, there's the nonprofits in the advocacy and standards organizations we work with, such as HL7, which is an international health technology standards organization, and DirectTrust, which is an organization that establishes trust networks in ecosystems, as well as the technology infrastructure behind how those systems communicate. And we work also with EHNAC, the accreditation commission. So, we not only are using the accreditation from EHNAC, we're on committees to advise them on future criteria for accreditation.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really cool. I love that there's that collaboration and just openness and willingness to try to make things better and to invest in solutions together.
\n\nMid-Roll Ad:
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\n\nVICTORIA: And with me here, I have Richard Newman, who is the Development Director on our Boost Team, to talk to me a little bit more about what maintenance actually looks like once you've built your software application, right?
\n\nRICHARD: Hi, Victoria.
\n\nVICTORIA: Hi, Richard. You have experience building applications. I wonder if you could describe to a founder who's considering to build an application, like, what should they consider for their long-term maintenance?
\n\nRICHARD: Well, like you said earlier, part of what you're going for with that long-term maintenance is making sure the health of your project, of your application, is always there. And you don't want to be surprised as you're continuing to work with your users and so forth.
\n\nAnd so, a number of things that we pay attention to in maintenance are, we're paying attention to keeping the application secure, providing security updates. We want to make sure that the ecosystem, basically, all of the tools and third-party services that are tied to your application that, we're responding to those sorts of changes as we go along.
\n\nAnd then part of it is, occasionally, you're going to find some smaller issues or bugs or so forth as your user group continues to grow or as needs continue to change. You want to be able to respond to those quickly as well. And so, a lot of what goes into maintenance is making sure that you're paying attention and you're ahead of those things before they surprise you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Because what can happen? Like, what are the consequences if you don't do that ongoing maintenance?
\n\nRICHARD: Well, the security updates those happen across gems and in the platform sort of tools that are there. And so, if you're not keeping those up to date, your exposure, your vulnerability to being hacked, or having a bad actor come into your application start growing on you if you're not doing the maintenance.
\n\nThe other ones that can come up is there's new interfaces that these third-party services...they may be updating their APIs. They may be updating how you're supposed to work with their tool. And so, those can occasionally break if you're not paying attention to what's going on or you're suddenly surprised by an upgrade that you have to make.
\n\nAnd then, finally, there's this long-term sort of code change that just builds up over time if you're not keeping it refactored for the changes that are upcoming in a language or the gems that you work with. And then, suddenly, after a while, it suddenly gets to the point where you have a lot of work that you might have to do to rehabilitate the application to take on some of the newer features that are being released. And so, that makes it that much more difficult, that much more friction about being able to deliver updates for your users or to be able to respond to changes that are happening out there in your application.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. So, if you don't have that ongoing maintenance, you could run into a situation where, suddenly, you need to make a very large investment and fixing whatever is broken.
\n\nRICHARD: Absolutely. It's going to be very tough to plan for if you weren't keeping up all the way along and, yes, absolutely ends up being much slower if you have to remediate it.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. I wonder if you have any examples of a project you've walked into and said, "Wow, I wish we had been doing a little bit more maintenance." [laughs] And maybe you can share some details.
\n\nRICHARD: Yeah. We had a fairly large application that involved a number of clinic services. So, we had an application that users were going in every day and counting on our fast response. And, over time, we've got surprised by a database upgrade that had to happen. Basically, the database was going to be changed by our third-party hosting service, and that hadn't been tested. There hadn't been procedures in place when we discovered this need. And there was a very hard date that that change had to be done or else the entire application was going to go down.
\n\nAnd it came at a very inconvenient time, at the end of the year around Christmas, that we had to respond to all of that. And had we been in front of it and just updated it every quarter and staying current with it, it wouldn't have been nearly the lift that it turned out to be. We were facing a pretty hard deadline [laughs] there to keep things going. It was very, very stressful and disruptive for the team and potentially for the clinics.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And it always happens around a big holiday or something like that, right? When it all comes to a head. So...
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nRICHARD: Absolutely. You want to be in control of the timeframe and not have the timeframe be in control of you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And if you have a team like thoughtbot supporting you, you can go on your vacation with a little bit more knowledge that if something breaks, there's someone there who can respond and fix things, and you don't have to interrupt your very valuable time off. So...
\n\nRICHARD: [chuckles] Absolutely.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Richard, for joining me today. I appreciate you coming here to talk with us. And we'll talk to you again soon.
\n\nRICHARD: Yeah, it was a pleasure. Thank you.
\n\nVICTORIA: You mentioned advocacy. And I'm curious if you could say more about what advocacy are you doing or how does that blend into your business model and what you're doing with OtisHealth?
\n\nMARC: I'll give you an example. One of the organizations we belong to and I participate in personally is the Health Information Management System Society. And so, this is a professional society of healthcare IT professionals. And in Northern California, there's an advocacy committee that works directly with the state legislature to promote legislation that will improve the quality of healthcare for people in California. We actively talk to members of the legislature to tell them what bills we think are important.
\n\nThe ones we focus on and the ones I personally focus on are the ones that improve access to our data and also improve our privacy. So, there's a legislation in California, as an example, that will prohibit access to people's healthcare data without proper legal warrant. So, it's basically extending HIPAA protections across any health app launched in California. And we, of course, are already HIPAA-compliant, so that's very easy for us.
\n\nThere's also advocacy specific to certain health conditions. So, my daughter had autism. I work with the Autism Society here in California and also Achieve Tahoe, which is an organization that teaches skiing and other skills to people with disabilities in particular. This past season was my first season. I work primarily with children and young adults with autism and other developmental disorders.
\n\nAnd then we also partner with organizations when we think that they're aligned with some of our mission. And so we work with the Caregiver Action Network. We also will work with AARP and other organizations regarding caregiver rights and also teaching caregivers how to access the healthcare data of their loved ones and how to take care of themselves personally.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's wonderful. And I guess it's not really a question, but I saw that autism service dogs are a thing, and I just thought that was really cool. [laughs]
\n\nMARC: Yeah, OtisHealth is named after Constance's autism service dog, Otis. And so, service dogs are extraordinary animals. They're highly trained. Otis had been trained for two years before we received him. He was trained specifically for Constance's needs, and he kept her safe. And that was the primary interest in Otis is observing things that she...because of her cognitive limitations, wasn't always aware of her surroundings and wasn't always safe. And so, the dog maintained her safety and her boundaries and kept her focused, as well as just basically blocked her if she was going to do something that was unsafe.
\n\nSo, there are many different kinds of service dogs, and I'm talking specifically about ADA, the Americans with Disability Act type service dogs. These aren't, like, companion dogs or therapy dogs. These are truly highly trained animals that are focused on specific tasks to help an individual be safer, more free, or have more abilities than their disabilities may allow.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, I love that. And I like that the app is named after her dog as well. That's just very sweet. And I love that that's how that worked. And I'm curious, what's on the horizon? What are you most excited about for OtisHealth in the next year?
\n\nMARC: Like all startups, we have [laughs] a lot of plans. And we've been invited to speak at some conferences. I spoke at two already this year. And I have another one coming up in Washington, D.C., where we're going to advocate, again, for patient access. And this is primarily talking to the health systems themselves in adopting technology that makes it easier for patients to securely access their health records.
\n\nAnd so, we're excited about that movement in the industry to recognize and start to act on that need for patients to be able to access their health records. And we work with our partners to promote that and also with the federal government. We work with the health and human services to promote this access. And we were published in a report earlier this year because of our technology demonstration with health and human services. And it sounds like it's finally getting some real traction in hospital systems. And members of the Federal Congress are also saying that this is something we need to move forward with in a more aggressive manner.
\n\nOn a more direct path, we're excited our membership's growing. We've had tens of thousands of people register to use the app, with thousands actively using it today. We're working on some new programs right now for payers and for providers that will improve health outcomes and within their populations, as well as bring on hundreds of thousands of other people on the app.
\n\nWe're really excited to know that we're getting both recognized for the work that we're doing and that people are starting to understand the importance of managing everyday health, whether it's with OtisHealth or another application.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, I love being excited for these opportunities to advocate for your product and for the mission behind the product. I'm not going to recommend being excited about going to D.C. during the summer. [laughs] Last time I was there when I landed at 9:00 p.m., it was 90 degrees outside [chuckles] and humid, like, 90% humidity. But it's great to have access to people who care and are trying to make things better and have that voice. I'm excited to see you grow.
\n\nAnd then, it's been two years since you started the app. I wonder, if you could go back in time to when you first were getting started, what advice would you give yourself?
\n\nMARC: So, this is a really hard thing for anybody to look back and say that they'd like to change a few things. There are things I would change. I have a lot of experience managing large, sophisticated programs. Because in the past I had large budgets, it was really easy to maintain strict discipline around the implementation. And I think I was too loose in the implementation process at the onset of OtisHealth.
\n\nI would have been more disciplined around my program management and the accountability that I had to developers I was using. As a startup, I didn't have a large development team in-house. I needed to use external parties. And I should have been a little more closely on top of that process.
\n\nThe other things that we experienced were primarily a result of pivots. We were constantly pivoting as we were learning. I think having a team to review our process and pivot more quickly is really critical. You don't want to pivot 20 times a week. You need to stay focused for a while, but also having friends or advisors or members of your team that can help you assess when a pivot is necessary, or a new opportunity presents itself, I think, is critical. And so, we all know, as founders, the team is key. And I think the earlier you engage a team and not be bashful by asking for advice, the better.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And I'm curious if you have any advice from your program or from your startup career now on choosing the right development teams. And how do you find those right partners to actually build the app and have that accountability?
\n\nMARC: So, I would say the number one thing that I've learned, that I knew previously, but I really appreciate it more now as a founder of a small company, is you need mission alignment, not just company to company, but person to person. And I took my time picking advisors to join us, and I took my time getting people on board to OtisHealth. We pick folks that we believe understand what we're doing, and we take our time and make sure that they appreciate it and that we're comfortable with them.
\n\nOur startup is too small to make a bad hire or to have the wrong perspective because somebody has other motives, such as just making money. If I was providing advice in terms of picking teams or picking vendors to work with, I would say take it slow. Don't rush, even though you may be in a rush, or we may be in a rush to get moving, either for financial reasons or personal reasons.
\n\nIt's important just to feel comfortable. Get to know folks. Meet them in person if you can and spend a few hours with them at a time [laughs], just to make sure that they believe in you, and you believe in them, and that you have a common vision. Because when things get rough or tough, financially or otherwise, you need people that are going to be able to stick through it and work with you.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. There's a lot of pivots happening. You want everyone to be on the same page. And you don't want to have to be corralling everyone all the time if they have competing priorities, so that makes a lot of sense.
\n\nMARC: Absolutely. Just to be clearer on that, we all run into challenges. So, in some cases, we had to make some financial sacrifices, and everyone did it together. You really need people that are that committed that say, "Okay, I understand where we are, and so, I'm willing to take a pay cut for a while or not get paid for a while until we can get this spec started again." Even vendors I work with today that are strategic vendors understand that and have helped us financially when we need some time to get more revenue in.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. And so, when you were building a healthcare app, was there people you needed to have on your team who had that exact specialty in either patient care, or medical records, or something like that?
\n\nMARC: Yes, yeah, you need experts. So, I'm a quick read. I mean, I spent a couple of years learning the industry and understanding the technology. But the person that's our IT director he has over 25 years of experience in healthcare IT systems, so he is the expert in-house. We also have advisors on our team that are experts in payer services and payer systems, launching healthcare apps, managing standards, and managing SaaS services. We have a data and an AI expert, and a clinical research specialist. We also have physicians we refer to. [laughs] So, we have a pretty big entourage of individuals that we go to for very specific advice and work.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. Let's see, what question should I be asking that I haven't asked yet?
\n\nMARC: You know, I think most of the people listening to this podcast are technical founders. And it was surprising to me, and I had some founders contact me, asked for some free advice, which I'm happy to do, but they didn't seem sincere in their interest in being in healthcare. And one thing I told them, and I would say to anybody that's interested in being a healthcare technology developer, is you have to have a reason to do it besides the money.
\n\nIt will be a really hard battle to move forward with a technology if the only motivation is a financial opportunity. That isn't going to sustain the pivots or the development. You'll run into a lot of walls, primarily because everyone will see it. Everyone in the industry sees those players come in that just have a financial interest, and the consumers see it, and they don't like it.
\n\nSo, my advice to anybody that wants to develop technology in healthcare is you have to be a little sincere about it and have a real reason to do it beyond just making money, and I think you'll find it more rewarding. There's so much need for healthcare technology and better technology out there. So, I welcome folks to join the fight, the battle, or the opportunities. But I would say that just come in with the idea that you're helping people, not just making money.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think that rings true for any business you're in, right? But especially in healthcare because it is this big target. Even in consulting, if you're doing business development and you're thinking of working on health IT projects, there's just a huge market that you have to narrow down and figure out where you're going to be. So, if you don't have that intrinsic motivation, it can be overwhelming and scattered, and then people won't connect with you, right? Because everybody is going after the same thing.
\n\nMARC: That's exactly right. One of the conferences I went to earlier this year, a speaker got up and said, "People invest in people, or people make deals with other people." We talk about companies signing a deal with another company, but it's really one person trusting another person. Whether it's in healthcare or another industry, obviously, that trust needs to happen. At some point, if I don't trust the individual I'm talking to, I'm less likely to have a deal with that company.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. It's like; I don't know how, you know, it doesn't really matter how impressive your credentials are. If there's not a basic level of trust, you might not move forward with it, so that makes a lot of sense to me.
\n\nMARC: Yeah, that's absolutely right, Victoria.
\n\nVICTORIA: Absolutely. Is there anything else that you'd like to promote at the end of this podcast?
\n\nMARC: I'd love for folks to try OtisHealth. If you have family that have chronic medical needs or need help managing their medical information, please download OtisHealth, help them join. There are videos on YouTube that explain how to use it if you need some guidance, but we believe most of it is self-explanatory.
\n\nWe are continuously adding data access points. We're going to be launching this week new versions of OtisHealth that have access privileges for people in New York and Nevada and parts of California and Colorado. And so that means that with the app, once you're ID-proofed on the app, you can use it to get your medical records from different sources without having to log into all these different patient portals. So please try it. Use it for yourself but especially use it for your family or anybody who you care for. We'd love to get your feedback as you use the app too.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. And I'm actually already thinking about...next week; I'm going to be going to The San Diego Annual Veterans Stand Down, where anyone who is experiencing homelessness can come in and get access to all the services that they might need, whether it's legal, or healthcare, or dentistry, showers, food, all of these things. And I'm curious if that organization might benefit from having a tool like that for their users. So, I'll be talking about it. [laughs]
\n\nMARC: Oh, thank you so much. That'd be wonderful. Thank you.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. Well, thank you so much, Marc, for joining us.
\n\nMARC: My pleasure. Thank you, Victoria, for having me on the show.
\n\nVICTORIA: Excellent.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Marc Mar-Yohana.
","summary":"Marc Mar-Yohana is the CEO and Founder of OtisHealth, a personal health application and platform for patient-caregiver engagement, population health, and clinical research.\r\n\r\nMarc has dedicated his life to developing better tools for families and caregivers to manage their loved one's health. He aimed to create a unified system where all health data could be gathered, enabling caregivers, patients, and medical providers to see the whole picture. OtisHealth allows patients to integrate data from different sources, including wearable devices, and capture information outside clinical settings.","date_published":"2023-08-10T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/4ae7ab96-4127-4791-af8b-7981bfa64d29.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":42054552,"duration_in_seconds":2185}]},{"id":"872ab0ef-ad68-4f55-a79b-9da31949655e","title":"486: Blox with Simon Ritchie","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/486","content_text":"Introducing thoughtbot's ongoing maintenance service. Need reliable support and maintenance for your software? Look no further. Our expert team handles upgrades, bug fixes, UI adjustments, and new feature development. And the best part? Our maintenance packages start at just 5k per month for companies of all sizes.\n\nFrom Ruby on Rails to Node, React, and, yes, even PHP, we've got you covered. Trust thoughtbot for top-notch support and optimized performance.\n\nTo receive a custom quote, contact sales@thoughtbot.com. \n\n__\n\nSimon Ritchie, the founder and CEO of Blox, discusses his background and journey leading up to starting the company. He began his career in finance but discovered his passion for technology and finance systems. He worked at Anaplan, a successful finance planning and analysis software company, but saw the limitations of rigid systems when COVID-19 hit. He realized there was a need for a more flexible and accessible financial modeling and planning tool, especially for small businesses and charities.\n\nBlox aims to fill this gap by providing a powerful yet easy-to-use modeling, calculation, and planning engine that sits between spreadsheets and complex enterprise software. The company is about a year old, has raised venture funding, and launched a free tier of its product. They prioritize building a compelling product, iterating quickly, and engaging with users to understand their needs.\n\nSimon acknowledges that building the product has been enjoyable, leveraging his background in product management. However, sales, marketing, and customer traction have proven challenging. Nonetheless, he remains optimistic about Blox's progress and is committed to providing a valuable solution to help businesses make informed decisions and achieve their financial goals.\n\n\nBlox\nFollow Blox on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, or TikTok\nFollow Simon Ritchie on LinkedIn.\nFollow thoughtbot on Twitter or LinkedIn.\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido.\n\nWILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. And with me today is Simon Ritchie, Founder and CEO of Blox, which provides pre-built planning models to help business leaders escape the tyranny of complex, clunky, and error-prone spreadsheets, giving you visibility into and confidence in the reality of your business. \n\nSimon, thank you for joining us. How are you doing today?\n\nSIMON: Hey, guys. Yeah, I'm very good today.\n\nVICTORIA: So, Simon, where are you joining us from today?\n\nSIMON: So, I'm joining from the UK. I live in a city called Brighton on the South Coast of the UK, where it's a lovely day today. It's nice and sunny.\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that's where our thoughtbot summit has been the last two years, in Brighton, actually.\n\nSIMON: Fantastic. Yeah, it's a wonderful place. \n\nVICTORIA: And a great place to be in the summer right now, right? Do you get out in the water very often?\n\nSIMON: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Like many others, we have a paddle board. So, I go out with my family. I have four kids, so we go out and have fun at the beach. Brighton's got a stony beach. So we are, as Brightoners, we're very proud of the stones. You know, if you have sand, you get sand everywhere, stones are...it's much cleaner. [laughter] It does hurt your feet, though. There you go.\n\n[laughter]\n\nWILL: Yeah, that was the first time I've ever seen that, and I was like, that's very interesting. \n\nSIMON: Yeah. [laughs] \n\nWILL: I probably will like it because I don't like the sand getting everywhere, so... \n\nSIMON: Yeah, absolutely.\n\nWILL: So, yeah, I probably could trade that in. [laughs]\n\nSIMON: Yeah, yeah. You just have to wear shoes if you want to go run around. We're proud. We're proud of it.\n\nVICTORIA: I didn't think about that either. It makes a lot more sense. I don't really like the sand [laughter]. Rocks make more sense. But in California here, we're surfing, so having too many rocks on the beach would be a problem [laughs] for those of us who can't control ourselves. [laughter]\n\nSIMON: Yes. Yeah, Victoria, I thought you lived in Wales when I first looked at your profile --\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, right. \n\nSIMON: On LinkedIn. And I thought, oh --\n\nVICTORIA: That's...yeah.\n\nSIMON: A Welsh girl. That's --\n\nVICTORIA: My family is actually Welsh on my mother's side.\n\nSIMON: Oh really?\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. \n\nSIMON: Okay.\n\nVICTORIA: And Cardiff...California is named after Cardiff, Wales. \n\nSIMON: Okay, oh.\n\nVICTORIA: But yeah, so that's where it came from. So, I thought that was very cute, too. \n\nSIMON: [laughs] Very cool.\n\nVICTORIA: But, you know, Cardiff-by-the Sea is its own little beach town here.\n\nSIMON: It's not Wales. [laughs]\n\nVICTORIA: Not Wales. [laughs] Pretty different. But I do hear Wales is beautiful. \n\nSIMON: Oh, it is. Yeah, absolutely.\n\nVICTORIA: Awesome. Well, let's talk about Blox a little bit. So, why don't you tell us maybe a little bit about your background and how you came around to starting it? \n\nSIMON: Yeah, great. So, and just in terms of me and my background, so I started my career in finance, actually. I didn't really know what to go and study, so I thought, you know, studying numbers was probably a good thing. So, I did an accounting finance degree. And I got into the world of work in finance roles very quickly realized that finance wasn't for me. I just didn't really want to be a CFO. I just didn't feel the passion for it. \n\nBut I was the techie guy always in the finance team. I was the guy people turned to and originally for, you know, Excel and spreadsheet modeling. And behind Excel, you've got VBA. So, you've got this little, you know, it was my first exposure to programming and some, you know, and what coding was. And so, I sort of just realized, actually, I love the technology side. And so, I followed my passion more into the finance systems arena. \n\nAnd my passion has always been...the focus of my career has been helping leaders understand what's going on in the business by getting hold of those numbers, the data that they have, and analyzing it, summarizing it, trying to draw insights from it so they can make decisions. And so, in the early days, it was lots of Excel spreadsheet modeling. And, in some businesses, there's still tons of spreadsheet modeling going on. \n\nAnd then the next phase of my career was actually working in...there are a number of software options that help you with planning, modeling, reporting, et cetera. So, I joined...well, I did some consulting for a while and then joined a company called Anaplan. And was an early employee, the company was still very early in their journey. They were just launching a European office, so I joined as one of the early European employees.\n\nAnd Anaplan went on, over the course of nearly eight years that I was there, to be [inaudible 04:31], absolute rocket ship, grew up to 2,000 people, and we floated on the New York Stock Exchange and then IPO in 2018. It was acquired last year for a very big number. So really fantastic time there.\n\nBut to just talk about Blox, so I left Anaplan two years ago. The observations that I made that led to Blox ultimately were there were sort of three main aspects. Like, when COVID happened, the world changed radically. And what I saw...I was working in Anaplan. For anyone who doesn't know, Anaplan they focus on selling to large enterprise. So, you may not be familiar with the company if you're not a CFO or a finance person in a very large company. And they sell very expensive product. It's very, very powerful modeling, calculation, FP&A, finance planning, and analysis software. \n\nAnd so, companies...we were working with companies like Procter & Gamble, HP, Cisco, Google, and others. What I observed was when COVID kicked in, the FP&A system was too rigid. So, Anaplan, you know, these models that people had built up, spent a lot of time and energy building up, it was too rigid. The world changed so much that they couldn't really use their typical budgeting systems or these FP&A solutions. They couldn't use Anaplan. \n\nSo, everybody just jumped back into a spreadsheet to figure out, you know, do I still have a business? How am I going to survive this if I just had to shut all my retail stores or if I had to send everybody home? You know, so everyone was using spreadsheets, basically. \n\nAnd so my observation there was that the tools that are available at that point are still way too hard to use. They're not flexible enough. You can't mold them quickly enough to really handle some of those scenarios that you want to throw at it as a leader. So, when you're trying to make big decisions about new revenue streams, new offices that you would want to launch, restructuring your team, investing in more people, those things they're really hard to model in the tools that are available. You need real specialist experience and expertise. That's very expensive, et cetera. So that was one part. \n\nAnd then the other thing that happened was I've worked most of my career in larger companies. And I'd worked in, yeah, in finance, in businesses. And also, I'm a chartered management accountant. It's all about helping with managing a business with your numbers. And I hadn't really worked with many very small companies. I ended up volunteering. \n\nWhen the lockdowns were happening, there were lots of people that were sheltering in place and they were staying at home. And so, a local charity had organized to put together food parcels, and then they found drivers to drive them around. And so I had volunteered through a friend of a friend, and somewhere my name got put in. So, I ended up driving these food deliveries around for the summer, and I loved it. Every Thursday, I'd take a couple of hours to just drive around and drop some food on people's doorsteps and then maybe have a quick conversation with them from a distance. \n\nI got connected with the charity. It is a local charity that runs on the South Coast in England here. And they found out I was an accountant, and I worked in software technology. They were like, [gasps], please, you can be our new best friend. We need some help. So, I ended up helping them a bit in their back office with some of the reporting that they do. And to cut a long story short, they're a charity. They live on grant funding that they get. So, they apply for grants, and then the grant providers want them to report back on the progress that they've made, the services that they've offered, the people they've helped. \n\nSo, I went and helped them, and they needed these reports and some plans for grants that they were trying to get. What seemed really easy to me, like, they were showing me that they had to download this data from a system. And they needed to filter it and then count how many people they had been helping. And they basically were just, you know, with different needs and in different categories and cohorts. \n\nSo, they would basically download the data, open it in a spreadsheet, put a filter on, select some filters, and then they would count the number of rows that had that criteria. And then, they would type the number into an email. And I just showed them some very simple things, like, when you do a filter or if you select the cells, you can see a countdown at the bottom-right in Excel, and I showed them that. And they almost fell off their chair because [laughs] they were like, \"Oh, you know, why did we not see that sooner?\" \n\nBut I suppose through that, and, you know, through the various times that I helped them...and I just helped them with initially some spreadsheets and just some help with that. But it just showed me that there are a lot of businesses, a lot of charities in this case, but a lot of businesses where the leaders are not finance savvy, and they are not accountants. They're not MBAs, but they still need help running their business. They need to do reporting. They need to do planning, you know, manage their business, control the finances. \n\nSo, I just thought, you know, just started thinking a lot more about what does a small business need? What does a leader in a business need to make great decisions, run the business? And how could we get them a tool or some software that doesn't cost hundreds of grand every year but is accessible, a nice, low price point, and really easy for them to use? And that's the problem that I thought about for a long time. And ultimately, that's what we're trying to work on with Blox.\n\nWILL: That's amazing. I used to work at a nonprofit. And I remember those days of, like, because I wasn't an MBA, like you said, MBA finance and just trying to figure out numbers. I don't even remember the software we used. \n\nSIMON: [laughs]\n\nWILL: But it was old and very hard to maneuver. [laughter]\n\nSIMON: Oh yeah.\n\nWILL: It was harder to maneuver than spreadsheets. And I was like, ahh, this is a nightmare. So, this is amazing that you're doing that. Can you tell us more about how Blox solves that issue? Because it sounds like it is a tween of big software that's for enterprise companies and spreadsheets. So, it's kind of in the middle; it sounds like.\n\nSIMON: So, spreadsheets are great. They're really easy. They're easy to start with. You'll often find that your spreadsheet will just kind of reach its natural end. It becomes too complex. And that normally happens when you've got, like, you're planning for lots of people, or lots of products, or lots of different projects. \n\nAnd so, you end up sort of having to figure out how to scale the model, you know, across lots of different columns or rows, or you start copying. And how you'll have three identical tabs or ten identical tabs. And, at that point, you've basically outgrown Excel, and trying to keep that spreadsheet running and working it becomes a real nightmare. And so, that's the point where Blox comes in. You could use Blox right from the very beginning. \n\nWe've started with a focus on making really nice, simple models that you can just pick up and use. So, our earliest customers are startups doing a financial model for a brand-new idea. So, you can use Blox from the beginning, but you could probably use a spreadsheet, too. Where you would want to use Blox is where it becomes more complex, and you've got a lot more going on. You might have lots of different months, and you've got loads of time. You might want to connect it to your actual accounting system or a CRM system. \n\nAnd so, when you want to pull in actual data and do some reporting and maybe have different scenarios, different versions of a plan or of a report, that's where you've basically outgrown a spreadsheet, and it just becomes complex and unwieldy. And that's where you would want to move into a system. That's what we're building with Blox is basically a powerful modeling calculation planning engine that scales really easily. \n\nSo, you can build up your dimensions, products, countries, time, et cetera, and you can build up those dimensions. You can build up your logic. You can add your own KPIs. You can add your own projection logic, et cetera. You can build out a model. We've got lots of template models that you can start with because you shouldn't have to start from scratch every time. You can get going. You can load up your own data very quickly at the beginning. \n\nFor a lot of models, it's just assumptions. You're just trying to work out, okay, like, we've got some service businesses that use Blox. To get a basic model together, what you need to know is how many people do you have roughly? How much do you pay them? And then, how many people do you plan to hire at certain times? And how long does it take to ramp a new hire? Because, normally, there's some sort of ramp time. \n\nAnd if it's a service business and you're selling time, then you kind of have an average number of hours billable or often called utilization. So, with a few quick assumptions, you could throw them in. You could build out a multi-year plan for your business. And you could use that to think about, okay, how can I grow this business? I kind of talk about it as a financial roadmap that you could create. \n\nSo, you know, often in the product world, we talk about product roadmaps. I like to talk about, you know, a business roadmap or financial roadmap. And that's really what we are working on; Blox and Blox will help you with this financial roadmap that you can build out. You know, I'd like to get my business to this point to, you know, 2 million in revenue, or 10 million in revenue, or maybe there are some financial or non-financial goals that you're trying to get to. \n\nAnd, with a model, you can help try and kind of work out what the assumptions and drivers and what those things need to look like. And then, as a manager of the business, you can start working on, okay, how do I increase my headcount? Or how do I decrease this particular cost per unit or various things like that? So yeah, that's a very high level on what we're doing with Blox.\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you for that. And I certainly can relate to that, having worked for several different consulting services companies and how difficult it can be to get software [laughs] to project that --\n\nSIMON: [laughs]\n\nVICTORIA: Far into the future, like, to think about how you're going to hire, all the things that go into it. So, I'm curious about your own plan for Blox. Like, how would you describe where you are in your plan for the company?\n\nSIMON: We are a year old, actually just celebrated our one-year anniversary. In the last year, we've formed, hired an early team. We've fundraised successfully. So, we raised venture finance to fund the business. It's a complex product to build. We're trying to replace a spreadsheet, which has got tons and tons of features. They've been developing that for a long time. So, for someone to come across, it needs to be a relatively mature product. \n\nSo, we raised venture funds from investors. We're busy investing that to build up the product and take that to market. It's been a fantastic year. And this is my first time as a founder. I've worked in leadership roles in technology businesses, in customer success, and in product as well. \n\nYeah, I definitely would say working as a founder in a brand-new startup is very different to working in product, in a scale-up. You know, some of the lessons that I learned back there have been useful. You know, you learn how to juggle chaos, how to juggle...how to spin lots of plates. But yeah, I'm really delighted with our progress so far. We've fundraised. We ran a beta of our product last year with some early customers. We graduated from that.\n\nOur approach has always been to try and get the product out, so really embrace agile. It's kind of you don't see it so often in enterprise software. What you see is companies that like to just put \"Book a demo\" on the website. And they don't like to show their software until they've already kind of sold the value, and they've pitched, you know, positioned their pricing, and qualified their leads, et cetera. Our approach has always been let's build a fantastic product. Let's build something which is super compelling, super easy to use. Let's get people into the product as quickly as possible so they can experience it, see if it's going to be valuable for them. \n\nWe launched a free tier of our product, the first sort of MVP, as a free tier, so not paid, not with some of the features that we plan to add to the product. And so, we've got that out there, and it's been fantastic. We've got users from all over the world using it in all sorts of different ways. And that's the other thing that is really great for us. Because it's such a flexible product, it can be used in lots of places. \n\nSo, we've got all sorts of different applications being used by it. People jump in; they use it. They can try different templates that we've got. And then, if they need something different...every business is slightly different. So, if they need something slightly different, they can just chat to us in the product. We absolutely love chatting to people. And then, you know, we'll often spin up a custom template for them. And when we've done a few of those, then we'll build a standard template for a new industry. That's a little bit about where we're at.\n\nWe're a small team based between here and India, where most of our developers are. It's good fun. Some of the learning...so I would say maybe it's just because of my background. So, I moved into product, and I was a product manager and then product leader for the last six years. \n\nSo, for me, I've found building the product has been the easier part, probably because it's my background and that's where my passion is. So, I absolutely love anytime I get to spend in the product and spend with the team. The original founding team is myself as founder and CEO. And I don't get too much time on the product. I have a product manager and a designer. And so, that was the first...the early team, the founding team. And then we've added marketing and some other roles and software development. And so that's the team. \n\nI've found building the product has been really fun, and that's been a bit easier. Trying to work out how to do fundraising was a real challenge, so that took a lot of energy. We've been pretty successful so far in that. Still, always more to go, always more fundraising needed definitely. The really hard thing, especially in the market that we're in right now, it's hard, you know, getting early customer traction and selling. And that's really hard trying to get your name out there, build a brand, find early customers. That's really hard. \n\nSo yeah, that's definitely an observation for me that the product has been really fun and a bit easier than I thought. But yeah, trying to do sales, marketing, figure that out...and probably as well because it's not my background or my kind of natural area of interest, so I've been learning. That's always tough, isn't it?\n\nMid-Roll Ad:\n\nVICTORIA: Introducing thoughtbot's ongoing maintenance service. Need reliable support and maintenance for your software? Look no further. Our expert team handles upgrades, bug fixes, UI adjustments, and new feature development. And the best part? Our maintenance packages start at just 5K per month for companies of all sizes.\n\nFrom Ruby on Rails to Node, React, and, yes, even PHP, we've got you covered. Trust thoughtbot for top-notch support and optimized performance.\n\nTo receive a custom quote, contact sales@thoughtbot.com. \n\nVICTORIA: And with me here, I have Richard Newman, who is the Development Director on our Boost Team, to talk to me a little bit more about what maintenance actually looks like once you've built your software application, right?\n\nRICHARD: Hi, Victoria. \n\nVICTORIA: Hi, Richard. You have experience building applications. I wonder if you could describe to a founder who's considering to build an application, like, what should they consider for their long-term maintenance?\n\nRICHARD: Well, like you said earlier, part of what you're going for with that long-term maintenance is making sure the health of your project, of your application, is always there. And you don't want to be surprised as you're continuing to work with your users and so forth. \n\nAnd so, a number of things that we pay attention to in maintenance are, we're paying attention to keeping the application secure, providing security updates. We want to make sure that the ecosystem, basically, all of the tools and third-party services that are tied to your application that, we're responding to those sorts of changes as we go along. \n\nAnd then part of it is, occasionally, you're going to find some smaller issues or bugs or so forth as your user group continues to grow or as needs continue to change. You want to be able to respond to those quickly as well. And so, a lot of what goes into maintenance is making sure that you're paying attention and you're ahead of those things before they surprise you.\n\nVICTORIA: Because what can happen? Like, what are the consequences if you don't do that ongoing maintenance?\n\nRICHARD: Well, the security updates those happen across gems and in the platform sort of tools that are there. And so, if you're not keeping those up to date, your exposure, your vulnerability to being hacked, or having a bad actor come into your application start growing on you if you're not doing the maintenance.\n\nThe other ones that can come up is there's new interfaces that these third-party services...they may be updating their APIs. They may be updating how you're supposed to work with their tool. And so, those can occasionally break if you're not paying attention to what's going on or you're suddenly surprised by an upgrade that you have to make. \n\nAnd then, finally, there's this long-term sort of code change that just builds up over time if you're not keeping it refactored for the changes that are upcoming in a language or the gems that you work with. And then, suddenly, after a while, it suddenly gets to the point where you have a lot of work that you might have to do to rehabilitate the application to take on some of the newer features that are being released. And so, that makes it that much more difficult, that much more friction about being able to deliver updates for your users or to be able to respond to changes that are happening out there in your application.\n\nVICTORIA: Right. So, if you don't have that ongoing maintenance, you could run into a situation where, suddenly, you need to make a very large investment and fixing whatever is broken.\n\nRICHARD: Absolutely. It's going to be very tough to plan for if you weren't keeping up all the way along and, yes, absolutely ends up being much slower if you have to remediate it.\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. I wonder if you have any examples of a project you've walked into and said, \"Wow, I wish we had been doing a little bit more maintenance.\" [laughs] And maybe you can share some details.\n\nRICHARD: Yeah. We had a fairly large application that involved a number of clinic services. So, we had an application that users were going in every day and counting on our fast response. And, over time, we've got surprised by a database upgrade that had to happen. Basically, the database was going to be changed by our third-party hosting service, and that hadn't been tested. There hadn't been procedures in place when we discovered this need. And there was a very hard date that that change had to be done or else the entire application was going to go down. \n\nAnd it came at a very inconvenient time, at the end of the year around Christmas, that we had to respond to all of that. And had we been in front of it and just updated it every quarter and staying current with it, it wouldn't have been nearly the lift that it turned out to be. We were facing a pretty hard deadline [laughs] there to keep things going. It was very, very stressful and disruptive for the team and potentially for the clinics.\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And it always happens around a big holiday or something like that, right? When it all comes to a head. So...\n\n[laughter]\n\nRICHARD: Absolutely. You want to be in control of the timeframe and not have the timeframe be in control of you.\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And if you have a team like thoughtbot supporting you, you can go on your vacation with a little bit more knowledge that if something breaks, there's someone there who can respond and fix things, and you don't have to interrupt your very valuable time off. So...\n\nRICHARD: [chuckles] Absolutely.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Richard, for joining me today. I appreciate you coming here to talk with us. And we'll talk to you again soon.\n\nRICHARD: Yeah, it was a pleasure. Thank you.\n\nWILL: You mentioned getting your product out there how challenging it can be. So, what has been some other wins and some challenges that you've had as a first-time founder?\n\nSIMON: So, my approach to things as a leader is I basically like to bring silliness and games to help motivate and energize the team. So, as a human, I have quite a lot of energy. I roll around with lots of energy. And I take loads of photos of what I'm doing, and I share those. So, we have a Friday wrap-up with the team, and so I'll often share a lot of the pictures of, you know, what I've been up to this week. \n\nSo, yeah, there's been some really fantastic moments launching a product. We launched our MVP in three months. So, we basically set off...I actually funded the first season of the business, a couple of software developers, a couple of early employees. I funded the first season. We hadn't raised money. And I just spoke to my wife, and I said, \"Look, now's the time. I really want to do this.\" \n\nYou know, I've been saving up if you like, I had this, like, one day I'll do a startup fund. Some people would probably call that their long-term savings or like, you know, some...and I kind of called it my one day I'll do a startup fund. So, I'd been building up this fund because I knew that at some point, I'll probably go do this. The timing was way earlier than I thought. I thought I'd still do another four or five years in a career in a corporate role to try and get a few more notches in my belts to make fundraising easier, et cetera. \n\nThe timing came. The team was perfect. And everything just felt right, so we went for it. But yeah, we basically set out. We didn't know where we were going to get funding from. The market was in a real state, so this was middle of 2022. The Ukraine war had kicked in; valuations had dropped by 90% for a lot of tech companies. The post-COVID bubble had burst. It was hard. \n\nSo, we sat down, and we were like, okay, we could spend all of our runway trying to fundraise now, or we could crack on and try and build the first MVP. But we'd already done a lot of the market research, the user testing, early prototypes, et cetera. And that's a bit of a long story. But we had done that in the company that the founding team had worked at, and then we were actually a spin-out. So that happened. \n\nAnd we were sitting here thinking, okay, you know, we could spend all of our runway fundraising, or we could just crack on and build a product as quick as we can in the next three months. And so, we had this really hard conversation where we descoped so much stuff. And we just figured out what's the core piece that will really show the value of what we're trying to build, that we'd give to a user, that we could give to an early customer that they could use and get value from? And so, we came up with that scope. \n\nAnd we cracked on, and we built it. Within two and a half months, we had a working version. We played with it. Within three months, we kind of launched into this beta and got early users onto. So that was, you know, fantastic. So, we did that in the first three months, and then off the success of having an MVP, and just being able to show the product, and start getting some early user feedback, initial feedback was, you know, we took into account very quickly and improved. \n\nAnd just having that, you know, you basically start building momentum. Every step is still really hard, but you do build momentum. So, we got this product. We launched it. We went to a couple of events, and we talked about that, and then we did some fundraising. And we landed some funding, so that was fantastic. And then, you know, and then we've just gone sort of step by step from there. So, it's really fantastic what we've been able to achieve so far. \n\nThe challenges there's been loads of them, especially when you're building a startup. It's really exciting. So, you can get people excited quite easily about the future potential. And you can kind of talk about what this can be. I've got a printed picture of a unicorn on my whiteboard in my office right here as a sort of a statement of, you know, where we're going.\n\nIt's really hard as a founder or a leader trying to persuade people to leave a stable job, take a pay cut, and come and work with you and give them some equity, which you hope will be worth a ton, and you kind of paint the picture. But also, you don't know how long you can keep them because you're on runway. You're on runway. You haven't got infinite cash if it's not a profitable business. \n\nSo, you know, there are some real challenges. And, as a founder, you go through ups and downs. Ben Horowitz talks about it in his great book, The Hard Things About Hard Things, as the struggle. I definitely understand that a lot more now because there is an up and down to this. You do build momentum, but you also...you're creating the momentum, you know, one hard push at a time. So that's that early customers come on. You kind of pitch the dream of what the product will do, and then it will fall over as soon as they touch it. But I absolutely love it. \n\nWhat I love is the chance to create and how quickly you can move in the early days of a startup or a new product, where you don't have masses of technical debt. You don't have hundreds of customers. You don't have all this, you know, you don't have a massive team where everyone's got their point of view on what you should do. So, you can move really fast, and that's fantastic [inaudible 30:14] creative season. So yeah, lots of ups and downs, but it's really fun.\n\nVICTORIA: That's so interesting and particularly interesting that you're trying to make something that's easier to use than Excel. So, I'm curious how you're testing to make sure that it's actually easy. And what might be...I'm sure there's some interesting feedback you got about that.\n\nSIMON: Yeah, so we're making Blox easier than Excel. But it's got to be powerful enough to be able to handle the data and the modeling that you need for a business. If you're doing projections for multiple years if you've got lots of products or teams, then it can be complex, so it needs to be powerful enough to handle that. It needs to be flexible enough because you can take a template, but every business has got its own unique quirks. So, it needs to be flexible enough that it can be tailored easy for a unique business. \n\nAnd then, crucially, and this is also important, it needs to be easy enough to use so that the person who understands the business can change the model to kind of suit their business. That's the bit that most of the other players, you know, the enterprise software that's available today, just that they haven't figured out how to make it easy enough so that a businessperson that, you know, doesn't have database experience, can't write SQL, not going to write Python, you know, doesn't do complex scripting or any of this stuff. \n\nIt's got to be easy enough that they can, you know, tailor, reflect the way that their business works, the way that they make money, the way that their cost structure works, so they can figure out what drives the business. And so, if they're projecting revenue, they can work out the costs associated. \n\nSo, one of our founding team is a UX designer, a really, really fantastic designer, very experienced. He's been in the game for 25 years since, way before it was called UX. And started doing graphic design, and then has done lots of branding and branding for some really fantastic, large companies, did lots of consulting. And then got into UX and how, you know, the art of wireframing and helping to make products easily usable. I call him my secret weapon. I've worked with some fantastic designers in the past, so, as a founder, I think I appreciate and understand the value of a really good design and a really good UX designer. \n\nSo, Mike, our UX designer, has just been fantastic at that. He's very good at wireframing and very good at testing. And he's not a finance planning expert. That's why I call him my secret weapon because, you know, I understand planning really well, but sometimes I understand it too well. When I describe what a user is trying to do or, you know, what I expect a screen will look like, I'm just probably subconsciously replacing or recreating something that I've seen or used before, whereas he's coming at it brand new. He's not worked in planning or data modeling, or many of these things. He's worked in lots of different businesses. \n\nSo, he comes at it with a mobile-first perspective. Normally, he's thinking about, okay, how could this be used by a busy leader on their phone and they're running around? And so, he's been really fantastic at helping to keep it simple and easy and to rethink and to create a product, which is just so different to what other tools in the space are doing. And that's some of the feedback we get. It looks so different. It works so different. \n\nBut yeah, the hard thing is that spreadsheets are the most sticky tool, I think. They're just so useful for, you know, for everything where you need to get a list of things. You just start throwing it into a spreadsheet, and then you can, you know, organize it and improve structure over time. But yeah, it's a really sticky tool. And we train people how to use spreadsheets from early days from school. My 12-year-old daughter she already has been taught how to use a spreadsheet in school. \n\nSo, what we're trying to do is create something which is easier. But there's also, you know, you want there to be some familiarity in there so that people will...to avoid some of the friction of the people who have it. No one really signs up to learn a new tool if they can avoid it. We're lazy. [laughs]\n\nVICTORIA: It makes sense that design would be a big priority for your product because that was your intention from the beginning, right? Is to make something that's easy to use, so you prioritize that as an investment.\n\nSIMON: That's right. That's absolutely right. Yeah.\n\nVICTORIA: What's on the horizon? What are you the most excited about for Blox in the coming months?\n\nSIMON: So, yeah, we've got some really exciting elements of our roadmap coming. So, yeah, really excited to see these things come to life. Like anyone working in building products, whether you're designing, doing product, sort of overseeing, or actually developing, it's so great to see these things come to life. You spend a long time thinking and chatting about them, imagining, ideating about how they could look.\n\nThe thing that I'm just most excited about is—and that's probably why I love product—is, you know, you're building a product, and then you can...then you're talking to somebody about how they would use this. Or before that, you're talking about their day-to-day right now and what their problems are, and how you could help them save time, save money, et cetera. \n\nAnd so, you know, I absolutely love chatting to more and more different types of companies, leaders in different parts of the business. And, you know, especially in our space, it's mostly about, okay, how can I help? You know, how could we improve this planning process that we've got, whether it's, you know, planning for the cost of running a big project or trying to figure out how can I scale my business to reach my objectives? So, I just love chatting to lots of different leaders globally. So, I love going to events, chatting to people, fact-finding about how they run their business, how they think about finances, et cetera. \n\nIn terms of the product roadmap, we're working on some exciting new scenario capabilities, so you can easily look at different scenarios around a decision. So, you might be trying to decide, you know, should I be aggressive with my investments and hiring, or should I be pessimistic? Or is there a middle ground? So, we're adding, like, scenario capabilities where you can build out different versions of that, and then easily compare and contrast, and then decide which one to do. \n\nWe're working on some really...really enjoying working on some intelligent capabilities. So, again, in the search of making it really easy to use for a busy leader, for a busy businessperson, or a busy finance person, making it really easy to use. So, we've invested a lot in AI technology and been designing, developing POCs around how AI could help to onboard customers faster, how we could help to personalize models for businesses automagically. \n\nSo, as soon as we understand the website of a user, what sort of industry they're in, we can automagically personalize the template for them, add their own KPIs, like, industry-specific KPIs, into the model, and throw in benchmark data and all these things. So, we've got some fantastic AI capabilities coming through the pipe and some data integrations. As we get out more and more, we're connecting to different data sources. So, yeah, exciting times ahead for the roadmap. \n\nAnd as we add more features, then we'll add different pricing tiers, you know, so we can try and offer a nice, affordable entry-level offering for Blox, but then we will, you know, as you get more and more different features, you'll pay at the appropriate level. So that's a little bit about what our future looks like.\n\nWILL: That's neat some of the things you have coming up. You mentioned AI and how you're kind of embracing that. Can you expound on that? Like, kind of I know you said some data models automagically is going to do it. But, like, where can you see the benefit for a customer to use that? Because I know AI can be scary and stuff like that. But, like, just kind of taking the fear out of it and talking about how beneficial it can be.\n\nSIMON: Yeah. So, there's lots of different places where AI can help. So, the typical model today for finance planning is you'd have a leader who's responsible for the business, and they're responsible for an advertising budget. You know, they just intuitively know, you know, where should I spend money, what's good return on my investment, what's, you know, what works. \n\nBut when it comes to actually trying to model that, so how to put that into a financial model or some other model that you can understand the relationships between these things, put in the KPIs, have the formulas, calculating things in the right way at the right level, what you often find is that the leader is not the system's expert. So, you'll often have, especially in bigger businesses, you've got this expert data analyst or FP&A finance planning person that will do the modeling.\n\nSo, we really believe that AI can be like a digital business coach to digitize that business advisory piece. So, the leader can be sitting down. They can be looking to try and improve some part of their business or understand some part of their spend and trying to work out, like, what would life look like if I increased my spend on this particular channel by X? And so, you know, we are looking at AI to help with lots of different areas around this. Initially, it's helping a new user to get onboarded with Blox. So, it's taking a template and helping to personalize it for their business. \n\nWhat we basically try and do is fetch as much data about a new user and a new company as possible. So, if their team is on their website, then we'll pull in their team. If their products are listed on their website, we'll pull in a list of their products and try and throw that into the model and take out a lot of the friction that you have. As a user in the new system, you have to type in everything normally. If you're trying to model a business, you used to type it all in or copy and paste it from a spreadsheet. \n\nSo, we're looking at lots of options to help onboard new users. That has a good value add for us because we can increase the speed of adoption and help get users to value faster, which is great for us. And also, users are, you know, they're busy. They're impatient, and they want to understand what value they're going to get before they spend lots more of their time. So that's going to be useful for us and them. \n\nAnd yeah, helping to interpret the data. So, they'll connect us to their source systems. We'll be able to interpret what's going on, help them to understand different options and scenarios about how things might play out in the future. Basically, AI will help us to draw our insights that we can present to the user, will help explain what the user is looking at when they're looking at the model, so we can summarize some of the key insights so that they can use that.\n\nWe're expecting to have all sorts of users, but we're really focusing on really busy leaders who may have a good understanding of spreadsheets and data, but they're just too busy, and so they don't have time. So, they want something which is quick and easy. Or leaders who don't have that expertise, so those are the ones that we really cater for. We try and keep it really simple and help guide them through the process, et cetera. So that's where AI is going to be, like, that digital business AI...We kind of kind of talk about this AI business coach concept. \n\nAnd, over time, we'll build up more and more elements to that coach capability. We call him Anton in our team when we talk. We'll add more and more capabilities to him. But we've built a number of different POCs. And we've launched a couple of those with some customers. We've been out to events and showing off these new capabilities to basically test them out, understand what's working, what's not. What more do we need to think about to productionize this proof of concept? So that's, yeah, it's a very exciting time to be working on those things.\n\nVICTORIA: I love hearing about that. That's super interesting to see where it's going to go. So, my last question for you today is, is there anything else that you would like to promote?\n\nSIMON: I think I would just say, yeah, if you're a leader running a business or maybe it's a service business, and you're trying to think about, you know, when hiring business planning, financial planning, anything like that, then I'd love for you to come over to Blox, and you can jump straight into the product from our website. You can sign up. \n\nI absolutely love chatting to people about their businesses and what they're trying to do with their finances. So, if you want to do that, you can sign up. You can chat to us. I actually take a lot of time to respond to people in there, so yeah, if you want to do that. Or, if you can, also find me on LinkedIn. You can search me there. Just strike up a conversation and say, \"Hey, Simon, I'd love to chat about financial roadmapping or finance planning.\" \n\nYeah, I absolutely just love to speak to different leaders that work right across the business in different roles and see how we can help them to build a business that really unlock the potential that they have in their business through a great understanding of finances. So, yeah, if I can be of help, I would love that.\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. And we'll have all those links in the show notes so our audience can go and take a look. \n\nWILL: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry.\n\nVICTORIA: And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.Special Guest: Simon Ritchie.","content_html":"Introducing thoughtbot's ongoing maintenance service. Need reliable support and maintenance for your software? Look no further. Our expert team handles upgrades, bug fixes, UI adjustments, and new feature development. And the best part? Our maintenance packages start at just 5k per month for companies of all sizes.
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\n\nSimon Ritchie, the founder and CEO of Blox, discusses his background and journey leading up to starting the company. He began his career in finance but discovered his passion for technology and finance systems. He worked at Anaplan, a successful finance planning and analysis software company, but saw the limitations of rigid systems when COVID-19 hit. He realized there was a need for a more flexible and accessible financial modeling and planning tool, especially for small businesses and charities.
\n\nBlox aims to fill this gap by providing a powerful yet easy-to-use modeling, calculation, and planning engine that sits between spreadsheets and complex enterprise software. The company is about a year old, has raised venture funding, and launched a free tier of its product. They prioritize building a compelling product, iterating quickly, and engaging with users to understand their needs.
\n\nSimon acknowledges that building the product has been enjoyable, leveraging his background in product management. However, sales, marketing, and customer traction have proven challenging. Nonetheless, he remains optimistic about Blox's progress and is committed to providing a valuable solution to help businesses make informed decisions and achieve their financial goals.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido.
\n\nWILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. And with me today is Simon Ritchie, Founder and CEO of Blox, which provides pre-built planning models to help business leaders escape the tyranny of complex, clunky, and error-prone spreadsheets, giving you visibility into and confidence in the reality of your business.
\n\nSimon, thank you for joining us. How are you doing today?
\n\nSIMON: Hey, guys. Yeah, I'm very good today.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, Simon, where are you joining us from today?
\n\nSIMON: So, I'm joining from the UK. I live in a city called Brighton on the South Coast of the UK, where it's a lovely day today. It's nice and sunny.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that's where our thoughtbot summit has been the last two years, in Brighton, actually.
\n\nSIMON: Fantastic. Yeah, it's a wonderful place.
\n\nVICTORIA: And a great place to be in the summer right now, right? Do you get out in the water very often?
\n\nSIMON: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Like many others, we have a paddle board. So, I go out with my family. I have four kids, so we go out and have fun at the beach. Brighton's got a stony beach. So we are, as Brightoners, we're very proud of the stones. You know, if you have sand, you get sand everywhere, stones are...it's much cleaner. [laughter] It does hurt your feet, though. There you go.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nWILL: Yeah, that was the first time I've ever seen that, and I was like, that's very interesting.
\n\nSIMON: Yeah. [laughs]
\n\nWILL: I probably will like it because I don't like the sand getting everywhere, so...
\n\nSIMON: Yeah, absolutely.
\n\nWILL: So, yeah, I probably could trade that in. [laughs]
\n\nSIMON: Yeah, yeah. You just have to wear shoes if you want to go run around. We're proud. We're proud of it.
\n\nVICTORIA: I didn't think about that either. It makes a lot more sense. I don't really like the sand [laughter]. Rocks make more sense. But in California here, we're surfing, so having too many rocks on the beach would be a problem [laughs] for those of us who can't control ourselves. [laughter]
\n\nSIMON: Yes. Yeah, Victoria, I thought you lived in Wales when I first looked at your profile --
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, right.
\n\nSIMON: On LinkedIn. And I thought, oh --
\n\nVICTORIA: That's...yeah.
\n\nSIMON: A Welsh girl. That's --
\n\nVICTORIA: My family is actually Welsh on my mother's side.
\n\nSIMON: Oh really?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah.
\n\nSIMON: Okay.
\n\nVICTORIA: And Cardiff...California is named after Cardiff, Wales.
\n\nSIMON: Okay, oh.
\n\nVICTORIA: But yeah, so that's where it came from. So, I thought that was very cute, too.
\n\nSIMON: [laughs] Very cool.
\n\nVICTORIA: But, you know, Cardiff-by-the Sea is its own little beach town here.
\n\nSIMON: It's not Wales. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Not Wales. [laughs] Pretty different. But I do hear Wales is beautiful.
\n\nSIMON: Oh, it is. Yeah, absolutely.
\n\nVICTORIA: Awesome. Well, let's talk about Blox a little bit. So, why don't you tell us maybe a little bit about your background and how you came around to starting it?
\n\nSIMON: Yeah, great. So, and just in terms of me and my background, so I started my career in finance, actually. I didn't really know what to go and study, so I thought, you know, studying numbers was probably a good thing. So, I did an accounting finance degree. And I got into the world of work in finance roles very quickly realized that finance wasn't for me. I just didn't really want to be a CFO. I just didn't feel the passion for it.
\n\nBut I was the techie guy always in the finance team. I was the guy people turned to and originally for, you know, Excel and spreadsheet modeling. And behind Excel, you've got VBA. So, you've got this little, you know, it was my first exposure to programming and some, you know, and what coding was. And so, I sort of just realized, actually, I love the technology side. And so, I followed my passion more into the finance systems arena.
\n\nAnd my passion has always been...the focus of my career has been helping leaders understand what's going on in the business by getting hold of those numbers, the data that they have, and analyzing it, summarizing it, trying to draw insights from it so they can make decisions. And so, in the early days, it was lots of Excel spreadsheet modeling. And, in some businesses, there's still tons of spreadsheet modeling going on.
\n\nAnd then the next phase of my career was actually working in...there are a number of software options that help you with planning, modeling, reporting, et cetera. So, I joined...well, I did some consulting for a while and then joined a company called Anaplan. And was an early employee, the company was still very early in their journey. They were just launching a European office, so I joined as one of the early European employees.
\n\nAnd Anaplan went on, over the course of nearly eight years that I was there, to be [inaudible 04:31], absolute rocket ship, grew up to 2,000 people, and we floated on the New York Stock Exchange and then IPO in 2018. It was acquired last year for a very big number. So really fantastic time there.
\n\nBut to just talk about Blox, so I left Anaplan two years ago. The observations that I made that led to Blox ultimately were there were sort of three main aspects. Like, when COVID happened, the world changed radically. And what I saw...I was working in Anaplan. For anyone who doesn't know, Anaplan they focus on selling to large enterprise. So, you may not be familiar with the company if you're not a CFO or a finance person in a very large company. And they sell very expensive product. It's very, very powerful modeling, calculation, FP&A, finance planning, and analysis software.
\n\nAnd so, companies...we were working with companies like Procter & Gamble, HP, Cisco, Google, and others. What I observed was when COVID kicked in, the FP&A system was too rigid. So, Anaplan, you know, these models that people had built up, spent a lot of time and energy building up, it was too rigid. The world changed so much that they couldn't really use their typical budgeting systems or these FP&A solutions. They couldn't use Anaplan.
\n\nSo, everybody just jumped back into a spreadsheet to figure out, you know, do I still have a business? How am I going to survive this if I just had to shut all my retail stores or if I had to send everybody home? You know, so everyone was using spreadsheets, basically.
\n\nAnd so my observation there was that the tools that are available at that point are still way too hard to use. They're not flexible enough. You can't mold them quickly enough to really handle some of those scenarios that you want to throw at it as a leader. So, when you're trying to make big decisions about new revenue streams, new offices that you would want to launch, restructuring your team, investing in more people, those things they're really hard to model in the tools that are available. You need real specialist experience and expertise. That's very expensive, et cetera. So that was one part.
\n\nAnd then the other thing that happened was I've worked most of my career in larger companies. And I'd worked in, yeah, in finance, in businesses. And also, I'm a chartered management accountant. It's all about helping with managing a business with your numbers. And I hadn't really worked with many very small companies. I ended up volunteering.
\n\nWhen the lockdowns were happening, there were lots of people that were sheltering in place and they were staying at home. And so, a local charity had organized to put together food parcels, and then they found drivers to drive them around. And so I had volunteered through a friend of a friend, and somewhere my name got put in. So, I ended up driving these food deliveries around for the summer, and I loved it. Every Thursday, I'd take a couple of hours to just drive around and drop some food on people's doorsteps and then maybe have a quick conversation with them from a distance.
\n\nI got connected with the charity. It is a local charity that runs on the South Coast in England here. And they found out I was an accountant, and I worked in software technology. They were like, [gasps], please, you can be our new best friend. We need some help. So, I ended up helping them a bit in their back office with some of the reporting that they do. And to cut a long story short, they're a charity. They live on grant funding that they get. So, they apply for grants, and then the grant providers want them to report back on the progress that they've made, the services that they've offered, the people they've helped.
\n\nSo, I went and helped them, and they needed these reports and some plans for grants that they were trying to get. What seemed really easy to me, like, they were showing me that they had to download this data from a system. And they needed to filter it and then count how many people they had been helping. And they basically were just, you know, with different needs and in different categories and cohorts.
\n\nSo, they would basically download the data, open it in a spreadsheet, put a filter on, select some filters, and then they would count the number of rows that had that criteria. And then, they would type the number into an email. And I just showed them some very simple things, like, when you do a filter or if you select the cells, you can see a countdown at the bottom-right in Excel, and I showed them that. And they almost fell off their chair because [laughs] they were like, "Oh, you know, why did we not see that sooner?"
\n\nBut I suppose through that, and, you know, through the various times that I helped them...and I just helped them with initially some spreadsheets and just some help with that. But it just showed me that there are a lot of businesses, a lot of charities in this case, but a lot of businesses where the leaders are not finance savvy, and they are not accountants. They're not MBAs, but they still need help running their business. They need to do reporting. They need to do planning, you know, manage their business, control the finances.
\n\nSo, I just thought, you know, just started thinking a lot more about what does a small business need? What does a leader in a business need to make great decisions, run the business? And how could we get them a tool or some software that doesn't cost hundreds of grand every year but is accessible, a nice, low price point, and really easy for them to use? And that's the problem that I thought about for a long time. And ultimately, that's what we're trying to work on with Blox.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing. I used to work at a nonprofit. And I remember those days of, like, because I wasn't an MBA, like you said, MBA finance and just trying to figure out numbers. I don't even remember the software we used.
\n\nSIMON: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: But it was old and very hard to maneuver. [laughter]
\n\nSIMON: Oh yeah.
\n\nWILL: It was harder to maneuver than spreadsheets. And I was like, ahh, this is a nightmare. So, this is amazing that you're doing that. Can you tell us more about how Blox solves that issue? Because it sounds like it is a tween of big software that's for enterprise companies and spreadsheets. So, it's kind of in the middle; it sounds like.
\n\nSIMON: So, spreadsheets are great. They're really easy. They're easy to start with. You'll often find that your spreadsheet will just kind of reach its natural end. It becomes too complex. And that normally happens when you've got, like, you're planning for lots of people, or lots of products, or lots of different projects.
\n\nAnd so, you end up sort of having to figure out how to scale the model, you know, across lots of different columns or rows, or you start copying. And how you'll have three identical tabs or ten identical tabs. And, at that point, you've basically outgrown Excel, and trying to keep that spreadsheet running and working it becomes a real nightmare. And so, that's the point where Blox comes in. You could use Blox right from the very beginning.
\n\nWe've started with a focus on making really nice, simple models that you can just pick up and use. So, our earliest customers are startups doing a financial model for a brand-new idea. So, you can use Blox from the beginning, but you could probably use a spreadsheet, too. Where you would want to use Blox is where it becomes more complex, and you've got a lot more going on. You might have lots of different months, and you've got loads of time. You might want to connect it to your actual accounting system or a CRM system.
\n\nAnd so, when you want to pull in actual data and do some reporting and maybe have different scenarios, different versions of a plan or of a report, that's where you've basically outgrown a spreadsheet, and it just becomes complex and unwieldy. And that's where you would want to move into a system. That's what we're building with Blox is basically a powerful modeling calculation planning engine that scales really easily.
\n\nSo, you can build up your dimensions, products, countries, time, et cetera, and you can build up those dimensions. You can build up your logic. You can add your own KPIs. You can add your own projection logic, et cetera. You can build out a model. We've got lots of template models that you can start with because you shouldn't have to start from scratch every time. You can get going. You can load up your own data very quickly at the beginning.
\n\nFor a lot of models, it's just assumptions. You're just trying to work out, okay, like, we've got some service businesses that use Blox. To get a basic model together, what you need to know is how many people do you have roughly? How much do you pay them? And then, how many people do you plan to hire at certain times? And how long does it take to ramp a new hire? Because, normally, there's some sort of ramp time.
\n\nAnd if it's a service business and you're selling time, then you kind of have an average number of hours billable or often called utilization. So, with a few quick assumptions, you could throw them in. You could build out a multi-year plan for your business. And you could use that to think about, okay, how can I grow this business? I kind of talk about it as a financial roadmap that you could create.
\n\nSo, you know, often in the product world, we talk about product roadmaps. I like to talk about, you know, a business roadmap or financial roadmap. And that's really what we are working on; Blox and Blox will help you with this financial roadmap that you can build out. You know, I'd like to get my business to this point to, you know, 2 million in revenue, or 10 million in revenue, or maybe there are some financial or non-financial goals that you're trying to get to.
\n\nAnd, with a model, you can help try and kind of work out what the assumptions and drivers and what those things need to look like. And then, as a manager of the business, you can start working on, okay, how do I increase my headcount? Or how do I decrease this particular cost per unit or various things like that? So yeah, that's a very high level on what we're doing with Blox.
\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you for that. And I certainly can relate to that, having worked for several different consulting services companies and how difficult it can be to get software [laughs] to project that --
\n\nSIMON: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Far into the future, like, to think about how you're going to hire, all the things that go into it. So, I'm curious about your own plan for Blox. Like, how would you describe where you are in your plan for the company?
\n\nSIMON: We are a year old, actually just celebrated our one-year anniversary. In the last year, we've formed, hired an early team. We've fundraised successfully. So, we raised venture finance to fund the business. It's a complex product to build. We're trying to replace a spreadsheet, which has got tons and tons of features. They've been developing that for a long time. So, for someone to come across, it needs to be a relatively mature product.
\n\nSo, we raised venture funds from investors. We're busy investing that to build up the product and take that to market. It's been a fantastic year. And this is my first time as a founder. I've worked in leadership roles in technology businesses, in customer success, and in product as well.
\n\nYeah, I definitely would say working as a founder in a brand-new startup is very different to working in product, in a scale-up. You know, some of the lessons that I learned back there have been useful. You know, you learn how to juggle chaos, how to juggle...how to spin lots of plates. But yeah, I'm really delighted with our progress so far. We've fundraised. We ran a beta of our product last year with some early customers. We graduated from that.
\n\nOur approach has always been to try and get the product out, so really embrace agile. It's kind of you don't see it so often in enterprise software. What you see is companies that like to just put "Book a demo" on the website. And they don't like to show their software until they've already kind of sold the value, and they've pitched, you know, positioned their pricing, and qualified their leads, et cetera. Our approach has always been let's build a fantastic product. Let's build something which is super compelling, super easy to use. Let's get people into the product as quickly as possible so they can experience it, see if it's going to be valuable for them.
\n\nWe launched a free tier of our product, the first sort of MVP, as a free tier, so not paid, not with some of the features that we plan to add to the product. And so, we've got that out there, and it's been fantastic. We've got users from all over the world using it in all sorts of different ways. And that's the other thing that is really great for us. Because it's such a flexible product, it can be used in lots of places.
\n\nSo, we've got all sorts of different applications being used by it. People jump in; they use it. They can try different templates that we've got. And then, if they need something different...every business is slightly different. So, if they need something slightly different, they can just chat to us in the product. We absolutely love chatting to people. And then, you know, we'll often spin up a custom template for them. And when we've done a few of those, then we'll build a standard template for a new industry. That's a little bit about where we're at.
\n\nWe're a small team based between here and India, where most of our developers are. It's good fun. Some of the learning...so I would say maybe it's just because of my background. So, I moved into product, and I was a product manager and then product leader for the last six years.
\n\nSo, for me, I've found building the product has been the easier part, probably because it's my background and that's where my passion is. So, I absolutely love anytime I get to spend in the product and spend with the team. The original founding team is myself as founder and CEO. And I don't get too much time on the product. I have a product manager and a designer. And so, that was the first...the early team, the founding team. And then we've added marketing and some other roles and software development. And so that's the team.
\n\nI've found building the product has been really fun, and that's been a bit easier. Trying to work out how to do fundraising was a real challenge, so that took a lot of energy. We've been pretty successful so far in that. Still, always more to go, always more fundraising needed definitely. The really hard thing, especially in the market that we're in right now, it's hard, you know, getting early customer traction and selling. And that's really hard trying to get your name out there, build a brand, find early customers. That's really hard.
\n\nSo yeah, that's definitely an observation for me that the product has been really fun and a bit easier than I thought. But yeah, trying to do sales, marketing, figure that out...and probably as well because it's not my background or my kind of natural area of interest, so I've been learning. That's always tough, isn't it?
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\n\nVICTORIA: And with me here, I have Richard Newman, who is the Development Director on our Boost Team, to talk to me a little bit more about what maintenance actually looks like once you've built your software application, right?
\n\nRICHARD: Hi, Victoria.
\n\nVICTORIA: Hi, Richard. You have experience building applications. I wonder if you could describe to a founder who's considering to build an application, like, what should they consider for their long-term maintenance?
\n\nRICHARD: Well, like you said earlier, part of what you're going for with that long-term maintenance is making sure the health of your project, of your application, is always there. And you don't want to be surprised as you're continuing to work with your users and so forth.
\n\nAnd so, a number of things that we pay attention to in maintenance are, we're paying attention to keeping the application secure, providing security updates. We want to make sure that the ecosystem, basically, all of the tools and third-party services that are tied to your application that, we're responding to those sorts of changes as we go along.
\n\nAnd then part of it is, occasionally, you're going to find some smaller issues or bugs or so forth as your user group continues to grow or as needs continue to change. You want to be able to respond to those quickly as well. And so, a lot of what goes into maintenance is making sure that you're paying attention and you're ahead of those things before they surprise you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Because what can happen? Like, what are the consequences if you don't do that ongoing maintenance?
\n\nRICHARD: Well, the security updates those happen across gems and in the platform sort of tools that are there. And so, if you're not keeping those up to date, your exposure, your vulnerability to being hacked, or having a bad actor come into your application start growing on you if you're not doing the maintenance.
\n\nThe other ones that can come up is there's new interfaces that these third-party services...they may be updating their APIs. They may be updating how you're supposed to work with their tool. And so, those can occasionally break if you're not paying attention to what's going on or you're suddenly surprised by an upgrade that you have to make.
\n\nAnd then, finally, there's this long-term sort of code change that just builds up over time if you're not keeping it refactored for the changes that are upcoming in a language or the gems that you work with. And then, suddenly, after a while, it suddenly gets to the point where you have a lot of work that you might have to do to rehabilitate the application to take on some of the newer features that are being released. And so, that makes it that much more difficult, that much more friction about being able to deliver updates for your users or to be able to respond to changes that are happening out there in your application.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. So, if you don't have that ongoing maintenance, you could run into a situation where, suddenly, you need to make a very large investment and fixing whatever is broken.
\n\nRICHARD: Absolutely. It's going to be very tough to plan for if you weren't keeping up all the way along and, yes, absolutely ends up being much slower if you have to remediate it.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. I wonder if you have any examples of a project you've walked into and said, "Wow, I wish we had been doing a little bit more maintenance." [laughs] And maybe you can share some details.
\n\nRICHARD: Yeah. We had a fairly large application that involved a number of clinic services. So, we had an application that users were going in every day and counting on our fast response. And, over time, we've got surprised by a database upgrade that had to happen. Basically, the database was going to be changed by our third-party hosting service, and that hadn't been tested. There hadn't been procedures in place when we discovered this need. And there was a very hard date that that change had to be done or else the entire application was going to go down.
\n\nAnd it came at a very inconvenient time, at the end of the year around Christmas, that we had to respond to all of that. And had we been in front of it and just updated it every quarter and staying current with it, it wouldn't have been nearly the lift that it turned out to be. We were facing a pretty hard deadline [laughs] there to keep things going. It was very, very stressful and disruptive for the team and potentially for the clinics.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And it always happens around a big holiday or something like that, right? When it all comes to a head. So...
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nRICHARD: Absolutely. You want to be in control of the timeframe and not have the timeframe be in control of you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And if you have a team like thoughtbot supporting you, you can go on your vacation with a little bit more knowledge that if something breaks, there's someone there who can respond and fix things, and you don't have to interrupt your very valuable time off. So...
\n\nRICHARD: [chuckles] Absolutely.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Richard, for joining me today. I appreciate you coming here to talk with us. And we'll talk to you again soon.
\n\nRICHARD: Yeah, it was a pleasure. Thank you.
\n\nWILL: You mentioned getting your product out there how challenging it can be. So, what has been some other wins and some challenges that you've had as a first-time founder?
\n\nSIMON: So, my approach to things as a leader is I basically like to bring silliness and games to help motivate and energize the team. So, as a human, I have quite a lot of energy. I roll around with lots of energy. And I take loads of photos of what I'm doing, and I share those. So, we have a Friday wrap-up with the team, and so I'll often share a lot of the pictures of, you know, what I've been up to this week.
\n\nSo, yeah, there's been some really fantastic moments launching a product. We launched our MVP in three months. So, we basically set off...I actually funded the first season of the business, a couple of software developers, a couple of early employees. I funded the first season. We hadn't raised money. And I just spoke to my wife, and I said, "Look, now's the time. I really want to do this."
\n\nYou know, I've been saving up if you like, I had this, like, one day I'll do a startup fund. Some people would probably call that their long-term savings or like, you know, some...and I kind of called it my one day I'll do a startup fund. So, I'd been building up this fund because I knew that at some point, I'll probably go do this. The timing was way earlier than I thought. I thought I'd still do another four or five years in a career in a corporate role to try and get a few more notches in my belts to make fundraising easier, et cetera.
\n\nThe timing came. The team was perfect. And everything just felt right, so we went for it. But yeah, we basically set out. We didn't know where we were going to get funding from. The market was in a real state, so this was middle of 2022. The Ukraine war had kicked in; valuations had dropped by 90% for a lot of tech companies. The post-COVID bubble had burst. It was hard.
\n\nSo, we sat down, and we were like, okay, we could spend all of our runway trying to fundraise now, or we could crack on and try and build the first MVP. But we'd already done a lot of the market research, the user testing, early prototypes, et cetera. And that's a bit of a long story. But we had done that in the company that the founding team had worked at, and then we were actually a spin-out. So that happened.
\n\nAnd we were sitting here thinking, okay, you know, we could spend all of our runway fundraising, or we could just crack on and build a product as quick as we can in the next three months. And so, we had this really hard conversation where we descoped so much stuff. And we just figured out what's the core piece that will really show the value of what we're trying to build, that we'd give to a user, that we could give to an early customer that they could use and get value from? And so, we came up with that scope.
\n\nAnd we cracked on, and we built it. Within two and a half months, we had a working version. We played with it. Within three months, we kind of launched into this beta and got early users onto. So that was, you know, fantastic. So, we did that in the first three months, and then off the success of having an MVP, and just being able to show the product, and start getting some early user feedback, initial feedback was, you know, we took into account very quickly and improved.
\n\nAnd just having that, you know, you basically start building momentum. Every step is still really hard, but you do build momentum. So, we got this product. We launched it. We went to a couple of events, and we talked about that, and then we did some fundraising. And we landed some funding, so that was fantastic. And then, you know, and then we've just gone sort of step by step from there. So, it's really fantastic what we've been able to achieve so far.
\n\nThe challenges there's been loads of them, especially when you're building a startup. It's really exciting. So, you can get people excited quite easily about the future potential. And you can kind of talk about what this can be. I've got a printed picture of a unicorn on my whiteboard in my office right here as a sort of a statement of, you know, where we're going.
\n\nIt's really hard as a founder or a leader trying to persuade people to leave a stable job, take a pay cut, and come and work with you and give them some equity, which you hope will be worth a ton, and you kind of paint the picture. But also, you don't know how long you can keep them because you're on runway. You're on runway. You haven't got infinite cash if it's not a profitable business.
\n\nSo, you know, there are some real challenges. And, as a founder, you go through ups and downs. Ben Horowitz talks about it in his great book, The Hard Things About Hard Things, as the struggle. I definitely understand that a lot more now because there is an up and down to this. You do build momentum, but you also...you're creating the momentum, you know, one hard push at a time. So that's that early customers come on. You kind of pitch the dream of what the product will do, and then it will fall over as soon as they touch it. But I absolutely love it.
\n\nWhat I love is the chance to create and how quickly you can move in the early days of a startup or a new product, where you don't have masses of technical debt. You don't have hundreds of customers. You don't have all this, you know, you don't have a massive team where everyone's got their point of view on what you should do. So, you can move really fast, and that's fantastic [inaudible 30:14] creative season. So yeah, lots of ups and downs, but it's really fun.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's so interesting and particularly interesting that you're trying to make something that's easier to use than Excel. So, I'm curious how you're testing to make sure that it's actually easy. And what might be...I'm sure there's some interesting feedback you got about that.
\n\nSIMON: Yeah, so we're making Blox easier than Excel. But it's got to be powerful enough to be able to handle the data and the modeling that you need for a business. If you're doing projections for multiple years if you've got lots of products or teams, then it can be complex, so it needs to be powerful enough to handle that. It needs to be flexible enough because you can take a template, but every business has got its own unique quirks. So, it needs to be flexible enough that it can be tailored easy for a unique business.
\n\nAnd then, crucially, and this is also important, it needs to be easy enough to use so that the person who understands the business can change the model to kind of suit their business. That's the bit that most of the other players, you know, the enterprise software that's available today, just that they haven't figured out how to make it easy enough so that a businessperson that, you know, doesn't have database experience, can't write SQL, not going to write Python, you know, doesn't do complex scripting or any of this stuff.
\n\nIt's got to be easy enough that they can, you know, tailor, reflect the way that their business works, the way that they make money, the way that their cost structure works, so they can figure out what drives the business. And so, if they're projecting revenue, they can work out the costs associated.
\n\nSo, one of our founding team is a UX designer, a really, really fantastic designer, very experienced. He's been in the game for 25 years since, way before it was called UX. And started doing graphic design, and then has done lots of branding and branding for some really fantastic, large companies, did lots of consulting. And then got into UX and how, you know, the art of wireframing and helping to make products easily usable. I call him my secret weapon. I've worked with some fantastic designers in the past, so, as a founder, I think I appreciate and understand the value of a really good design and a really good UX designer.
\n\nSo, Mike, our UX designer, has just been fantastic at that. He's very good at wireframing and very good at testing. And he's not a finance planning expert. That's why I call him my secret weapon because, you know, I understand planning really well, but sometimes I understand it too well. When I describe what a user is trying to do or, you know, what I expect a screen will look like, I'm just probably subconsciously replacing or recreating something that I've seen or used before, whereas he's coming at it brand new. He's not worked in planning or data modeling, or many of these things. He's worked in lots of different businesses.
\n\nSo, he comes at it with a mobile-first perspective. Normally, he's thinking about, okay, how could this be used by a busy leader on their phone and they're running around? And so, he's been really fantastic at helping to keep it simple and easy and to rethink and to create a product, which is just so different to what other tools in the space are doing. And that's some of the feedback we get. It looks so different. It works so different.
\n\nBut yeah, the hard thing is that spreadsheets are the most sticky tool, I think. They're just so useful for, you know, for everything where you need to get a list of things. You just start throwing it into a spreadsheet, and then you can, you know, organize it and improve structure over time. But yeah, it's a really sticky tool. And we train people how to use spreadsheets from early days from school. My 12-year-old daughter she already has been taught how to use a spreadsheet in school.
\n\nSo, what we're trying to do is create something which is easier. But there's also, you know, you want there to be some familiarity in there so that people will...to avoid some of the friction of the people who have it. No one really signs up to learn a new tool if they can avoid it. We're lazy. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: It makes sense that design would be a big priority for your product because that was your intention from the beginning, right? Is to make something that's easy to use, so you prioritize that as an investment.
\n\nSIMON: That's right. That's absolutely right. Yeah.
\n\nVICTORIA: What's on the horizon? What are you the most excited about for Blox in the coming months?
\n\nSIMON: So, yeah, we've got some really exciting elements of our roadmap coming. So, yeah, really excited to see these things come to life. Like anyone working in building products, whether you're designing, doing product, sort of overseeing, or actually developing, it's so great to see these things come to life. You spend a long time thinking and chatting about them, imagining, ideating about how they could look.
\n\nThe thing that I'm just most excited about is—and that's probably why I love product—is, you know, you're building a product, and then you can...then you're talking to somebody about how they would use this. Or before that, you're talking about their day-to-day right now and what their problems are, and how you could help them save time, save money, et cetera.
\n\nAnd so, you know, I absolutely love chatting to more and more different types of companies, leaders in different parts of the business. And, you know, especially in our space, it's mostly about, okay, how can I help? You know, how could we improve this planning process that we've got, whether it's, you know, planning for the cost of running a big project or trying to figure out how can I scale my business to reach my objectives? So, I just love chatting to lots of different leaders globally. So, I love going to events, chatting to people, fact-finding about how they run their business, how they think about finances, et cetera.
\n\nIn terms of the product roadmap, we're working on some exciting new scenario capabilities, so you can easily look at different scenarios around a decision. So, you might be trying to decide, you know, should I be aggressive with my investments and hiring, or should I be pessimistic? Or is there a middle ground? So, we're adding, like, scenario capabilities where you can build out different versions of that, and then easily compare and contrast, and then decide which one to do.
\n\nWe're working on some really...really enjoying working on some intelligent capabilities. So, again, in the search of making it really easy to use for a busy leader, for a busy businessperson, or a busy finance person, making it really easy to use. So, we've invested a lot in AI technology and been designing, developing POCs around how AI could help to onboard customers faster, how we could help to personalize models for businesses automagically.
\n\nSo, as soon as we understand the website of a user, what sort of industry they're in, we can automagically personalize the template for them, add their own KPIs, like, industry-specific KPIs, into the model, and throw in benchmark data and all these things. So, we've got some fantastic AI capabilities coming through the pipe and some data integrations. As we get out more and more, we're connecting to different data sources. So, yeah, exciting times ahead for the roadmap.
\n\nAnd as we add more features, then we'll add different pricing tiers, you know, so we can try and offer a nice, affordable entry-level offering for Blox, but then we will, you know, as you get more and more different features, you'll pay at the appropriate level. So that's a little bit about what our future looks like.
\n\nWILL: That's neat some of the things you have coming up. You mentioned AI and how you're kind of embracing that. Can you expound on that? Like, kind of I know you said some data models automagically is going to do it. But, like, where can you see the benefit for a customer to use that? Because I know AI can be scary and stuff like that. But, like, just kind of taking the fear out of it and talking about how beneficial it can be.
\n\nSIMON: Yeah. So, there's lots of different places where AI can help. So, the typical model today for finance planning is you'd have a leader who's responsible for the business, and they're responsible for an advertising budget. You know, they just intuitively know, you know, where should I spend money, what's good return on my investment, what's, you know, what works.
\n\nBut when it comes to actually trying to model that, so how to put that into a financial model or some other model that you can understand the relationships between these things, put in the KPIs, have the formulas, calculating things in the right way at the right level, what you often find is that the leader is not the system's expert. So, you'll often have, especially in bigger businesses, you've got this expert data analyst or FP&A finance planning person that will do the modeling.
\n\nSo, we really believe that AI can be like a digital business coach to digitize that business advisory piece. So, the leader can be sitting down. They can be looking to try and improve some part of their business or understand some part of their spend and trying to work out, like, what would life look like if I increased my spend on this particular channel by X? And so, you know, we are looking at AI to help with lots of different areas around this. Initially, it's helping a new user to get onboarded with Blox. So, it's taking a template and helping to personalize it for their business.
\n\nWhat we basically try and do is fetch as much data about a new user and a new company as possible. So, if their team is on their website, then we'll pull in their team. If their products are listed on their website, we'll pull in a list of their products and try and throw that into the model and take out a lot of the friction that you have. As a user in the new system, you have to type in everything normally. If you're trying to model a business, you used to type it all in or copy and paste it from a spreadsheet.
\n\nSo, we're looking at lots of options to help onboard new users. That has a good value add for us because we can increase the speed of adoption and help get users to value faster, which is great for us. And also, users are, you know, they're busy. They're impatient, and they want to understand what value they're going to get before they spend lots more of their time. So that's going to be useful for us and them.
\n\nAnd yeah, helping to interpret the data. So, they'll connect us to their source systems. We'll be able to interpret what's going on, help them to understand different options and scenarios about how things might play out in the future. Basically, AI will help us to draw our insights that we can present to the user, will help explain what the user is looking at when they're looking at the model, so we can summarize some of the key insights so that they can use that.
\n\nWe're expecting to have all sorts of users, but we're really focusing on really busy leaders who may have a good understanding of spreadsheets and data, but they're just too busy, and so they don't have time. So, they want something which is quick and easy. Or leaders who don't have that expertise, so those are the ones that we really cater for. We try and keep it really simple and help guide them through the process, et cetera. So that's where AI is going to be, like, that digital business AI...We kind of kind of talk about this AI business coach concept.
\n\nAnd, over time, we'll build up more and more elements to that coach capability. We call him Anton in our team when we talk. We'll add more and more capabilities to him. But we've built a number of different POCs. And we've launched a couple of those with some customers. We've been out to events and showing off these new capabilities to basically test them out, understand what's working, what's not. What more do we need to think about to productionize this proof of concept? So that's, yeah, it's a very exciting time to be working on those things.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love hearing about that. That's super interesting to see where it's going to go. So, my last question for you today is, is there anything else that you would like to promote?
\n\nSIMON: I think I would just say, yeah, if you're a leader running a business or maybe it's a service business, and you're trying to think about, you know, when hiring business planning, financial planning, anything like that, then I'd love for you to come over to Blox, and you can jump straight into the product from our website. You can sign up.
\n\nI absolutely love chatting to people about their businesses and what they're trying to do with their finances. So, if you want to do that, you can sign up. You can chat to us. I actually take a lot of time to respond to people in there, so yeah, if you want to do that. Or, if you can, also find me on LinkedIn. You can search me there. Just strike up a conversation and say, "Hey, Simon, I'd love to chat about financial roadmapping or finance planning."
\n\nYeah, I absolutely just love to speak to different leaders that work right across the business in different roles and see how we can help them to build a business that really unlock the potential that they have in their business through a great understanding of finances. So, yeah, if I can be of help, I would love that.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. And we'll have all those links in the show notes so our audience can go and take a look.
\n\nWILL: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nVICTORIA: And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Simon Ritchie.
","summary":"Simon Ritchie, the founder and CEO of Blox, discusses his background and journey leading up to starting the company. He began his career in finance but discovered his passion for technology and finance systems. He worked at Anaplan, a successful finance planning and analysis software company, but saw the limitations of rigid systems when COVID-19 hit. He realized there was a need for a more flexible and accessible financial modeling and planning tool, especially for small businesses and charities.\r\n\r\nBlox aims to fill this gap by providing a powerful yet easy-to-use modeling, calculation, and planning engine that sits between spreadsheets and complex enterprise software. The company is about a year old, has raised venture funding, and launched a free tier of its product. They prioritize building a compelling product, iterating quickly, and engaging with users to understand their needs.","date_published":"2023-08-03T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/872ab0ef-ad68-4f55-a79b-9da31949655e.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":47459399,"duration_in_seconds":2760}]},{"id":"fbeccb0c-e0f7-46e8-a01e-a302462c735e","title":"485: Pointz with Maggie Bachenberg and Trisha Ballakur","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/485","content_text":"Introducing thoughtbot's ongoing maintenance service. Need reliable support and maintenance for your software? Look no further. Our expert team handles upgrades, bug fixes, UI adjustments, and new feature development. And the best part? Our maintenance packages start at just 5k per month for companies of all sizes.\n\nFrom Ruby on Rails to Node, React, and, yes, even PHP, we've got you covered. Trust thoughtbot for top-notch support and optimized performance.\n\nTo receive a custom quote, contact sales@thoughtbot.com. \n\n__\n\nMaggie Bachenberg, CEO, and Trisha Ballakur, CTO, are the co-founders of Pointz, a mobile mapping app that helps navigate bike and scooter riders through safe routes in cities. \n\nVictoria talks to Maggie and Trisha about their cycling backgrounds, how they met and became co-founders, and what they feel is the differentiator for their app versus what was/is already on the market for biking-related apps.\n\n\nPointz\nFollow Pointz on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, or TikTok\nFollow Maggie Bachenberg on LinkedIn.\nFollow Trisha Ballakur on LinkedIn.\nFollow thoughtbot on Twitter or LinkedIn.\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. With me today is Maggie Bachenberg, CEO and Co-Founder of Pointz, and Trisha Ballakur, CTO and Co-Founder of Pointz, a mobile mapping app that helps navigate bike and scooter riders through safe routes in cities. \n\nJust to get us started here, are you both cyclists? And if so, where do you do that at? What's your city? Where do you bike around?\n\nMAGGIE: Yeah, we both bike. So I live in Providence, Rhode Island, along with Trisha, and use my bike primarily as a transportation device. So I'm riding around from my house to work, to get groceries, to my friend's house, kind of all different types of purposes.\n\nTRISHA: Yeah, and I grew up biking but kind of stopped after age, like, six or seven. And it was only when I got to college at Brown, where I met Maggie, that I got back into it and felt more confident to get back on the bike. And that was completely actually because of Pointz.\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that's nice. Yeah, speaking of confidence, I am not confident on a bicycle. I actually only learned after college. [laughs] And there's a video out there of my college friends helping me learn how to ride a bike. It's very cute. But still not my expertise. So I'm excited to learn more about it and learn about how Pointz could give you that confidence. So, whoever who'd like to start, why don't you tell me about what caused you to want to create Pointz?\n\nMAGGIE: Pointz was originally kind of my idea. And I got into biking in 2017 when I did a long-distance bike trip. I biked from Virginia to California. And it was my first time doing long-distance cycling, and I just kind of fell in love with it. \n\nBut I realized that when I was riding, it was pretty scary to navigate cities in particular. And so, a lot of locals would redirect me onto different routes that were safer. And I was confused why this wasn't captured in a mapping app already. And so, that's kind of where the idea was seeded. But I didn't start working on it until I got to college and met Trisha.\n\nVICTORIA: Great. So you got to college, and you saw that there was a need to have easier access to biking and biking information in an area, right?\n\nMAGGIE: Yeah, exactly. \n\nVICTORIA: Very cool. What was that initial process like? It was just the two of you, and you started building stuff? How did you really get the traction going early on?\n\nMAGGIE: It started with doing some customer discovery interviews with local cyclists. And so we interviewed over 100 initially and just asked kind of what their biggest barrier was to start riding. And we kept hearing this recurring theme of people not feeling safe enough to go on different routes. \n\nAnd so we brainstormed a bunch of different ideas in a class that Trisha and I were in together. But we ended up landing on the one that we're working on today, which is, like, you know, the rating system, and then also putting the rating system of bike friendliness into a routing algorithm where people could actually find routes.\n\nVICTORIA: That's very cool. And was there anything that really surprised you in that customer discovery process?\n\nMAGGIE: Just maybe the consistency around people's fear and, like, I guess, being nervous on a bike because we were interviewing people of all types of backgrounds and experiences. And even people that were more experienced had this fear of getting hit by a car because of lack of infrastructure and that sort of thing.\n\nTRISHA: Doing customer discovery and chatting with so many different types of riders...and we call them riders, bike riders, rather than cyclists for the distinction that, you know, in the bike riding community, there's a lot of very avid fitness-geared cyclists, maybe who want to go on their bikes to burn calories and challenge themselves. \n\nA lot of people they would call themselves someone who rides a bike. And it's to those types of people where safety is really critical, especially in allowing new people to go and try to ride a bike for the first time or the first time in many years. And so, that's something else that we noticed from those customer discovery interviews is identifying the different types of riders.\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you. That clears it up for me because I never know to call someone a cyclist or a rider, but it makes sense that cyclist is more, like, the athletic pursuit versus riding and, you know, just trying to get about your day. [laughs] And it also makes me feel better that even people who are really experienced riders have fear of being unsafe or getting hit by a car because that's certainly what I'm thinking about when I'm [laughs] venturing out there. So, what was your initial build like for the app solving this problem?\n\nTRISHA: Initially, we had a couple of different Brown University interns or students working on it together one summer and myself included. And that evolved to me and this one other student who was working with us figuring out how to transition the app from, like, an iOS Swift native app to React Native so it could be cross-platform. And we had to teach ourselves React Native for that. \n\nSo our intern at the time he had done an internship during the summer at this one startup where they taught him React Native. So he had done a couple of projects there. And I had a little bit of experience writing in JavaScript but really not as much as him. And so, together, we worked on coding the app from what we had in iOS in Swift, which was pretty limiting. But, at the time, it wasn't very much. \n\nBut we were able to replicate that in React Native during; I think it was my junior...Maggie in my junior winter break. That became the start of our MVP, which had many, many more iterations to get all the features in and was a little bit slow to build until when we released it out, which was our senior year in about March or so.\n\nVICTORIA: So that's really exciting. So, like, how long did it take you to really get to that initial MVP with the team that you have?\n\nTRISHA: It took quite a bit longer than expected, as with all sorts of technology when you're building it for the first time. So what was important to us throughout the process was making sure that all the features we put out there were really well tested, and were useful, and were actually solving the problem of providing safer routing. \n\nAnd to get to that stage, at first, we, you know, we had an app in Swift. Then we wanted to make it cross-platformed, and we needed to have the routing algorithm actually take those different weights, the different bike friendliness ratings of the roads into account. And that took a lot of researching and talking to mentors. So there were quite a few really hard challenges to get to the MVP, which is why it spanned about a year to get to that point. \n\nBut throughout it all, we worked with other students at Brown. Then we pulled in some front-end contractors from online, like contractor sites, who were awesome. And we were just focused on being really scrappy to get it out in March of 2022. \n\nVICTORIA: That's great. And maybe it felt like a long time, but I feel like a year for a really solid MVP is pretty good, [laughs] especially when you have those safety concerns, and the quality of your data, and what you're giving out is super important. So now you've got the MVP, and I believe you just raised your round of seed funding last year. What was that process like for you?\n\nMAGGIE: Yes, so the round of funding that we did, we raised the first initial amount actually going into our senior year, and that was from a firm called Rogue Venture Partners. And we also got a little bit of it from their Women's Fund. And, yeah, that was the kind of piece of funding that got us started and allowed us to really, you know, add additional resources to the product to get it out there, at least the MVP. And then, after that, we got a little bit more funding from them. \n\nAnd then we raised money from Techstars as well because we got into their accelerator at The Roux Institute. That's kind of in association with Northeastern, and that was out of Portland, Maine. I guess it wasn't really necessarily, like, a cohesive round. It was, like, a couple of different checks that all kind of went into, like, our early funding for Pointz. \n\nAnd I would say it was very much so based on, you know, our relationship that we had with our initial venture firm that were working with Rogue. They actually mentored us for quite a few months before they invested in us. So they started mentoring us our junior year when we were in school. And then we got the deal together September of 2021.\n\nVICTORIA: That's awesome. Well, congratulations. And I'm glad you were able to find the right partnerships, and mentors, and funding that you needed. What did you find was really the differentiator for your app versus what was already on the market for biking-related apps?\n\nMAGGIE: There are a couple of different types of competitors, so there are the biking-related apps that you just mentioned, and then there are the general kind of use case apps like Google Maps or Apple Maps. And so, for the bike-related apps, the main thing that's different about Pointz is that we're more focused on, like, bike riders in general, so people that are riding around for transportation and recreation, not so much the cyclist type of a person that Trisha described earlier. \n\nSo, you know, a lot of our features are geared towards people that are getting around the city or maybe are exploring a city or a neighborhood. It doesn't necessarily have to be a city, but that's kind of the focus. Whereas for other cycling-specific apps, like Komoot or Ride with GPS, it's focused a lot on, like, the fitness side of things and the recreation fitness side of riders. And so, at least the Ride with GPS and a few other of, like, the technologies that are available to more hardcore cyclists tend to have a more sharp learning curve. And ours was built more as, like, a general use case in navigating and exploring. \n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. So it's more for people like me who are trying to go the most scenic [laughs] or the flattest and the safest way, not necessarily the fastest or the more fitness-focused aspect of cycling and biking.\n\nMAGGIE: Yeah, exactly. And, you know, we actually built this for people like us. Granted, I did do that long-distance bike trip. But, generally, I don't consider myself that hardcore of a rider, I mean, in my daily life. So it's for people who don't really identify as a cyclist and are more just, like, riding their bike around and, honestly, for people who are new to riding in general. \n\nBecause a lot of our riders have recently gotten into biking or have recently moved to a new area, and so, they're just trying to figure out, you know, where are the good places to ride? Where do I feel safe? And, you know, how can I get more comfortable on my bike?\n\nVICTORIA: I'm loving this idea because I have a bike that's been sitting in my patio for over a year. [laughs] I haven't used...my partner is like, \"Can we get rid of it? Because you don't use it.\" But I'm like, \"I will. I will use it.\" I know my neighborhood problem is that there are giant hills if we leave our street here. So getting out is fine. But getting back in [laughs], it's like you need an electric bike. So that's very exciting.\n\nSo, tell me more about now that you've graduated and you're taking this up full time; what does the future look like? What's on your horizon?\n\nMAGGIE: I mean, we've been working a lot with one of our advisors on, you know, getting to the point where people really love the product, and that's been kind of happening over the last year. We met Anuj Adhiya from Lenny's Newsletter. We've been working with him to really hone in on what the thing is that people really love about Pointz and make that experience better. And then also figure out what exactly the persona is so we can target them eventually with marketing, which is kind of the stage that we're at right now. \n\nSo we were seeing our retention curves really evening out in especially a couple of cities that we're targeting. And so, this summer, we're focusing on getting our user base up in Los Angeles and then trying to figure out how, like, a playbook for scaling up a user base in a specific geography. Right now, a lot of our users are distributed throughout the United States. And there are clusters, but there's not, like, a huge spike in one city. And so, that's what we're working on right now is figuring out how to get a geographic kind of density to happen. \n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. And it sounded like the app also uses a lot of user-generated data for safety ratings and things like that. Am I getting that accurately?\n\nTRISHA: Yep, that's correct. And what we do is we have a bunch of different layers of our data that we pull from. We have a base layer of data that comes from OpenStreetMap, and then we build on top of that. We rate all roads on a one through five bike friendliness scale. And building on top of that, we pull from city-specific data sets from cities, and towns, and municipalities. And then, we layer on the crowdsourcing similar to how Waze does at the top.\n\nVICTORIA: Got it. So taking advantage of that open data, the open city data, and what other data the city is putting out there. Are you finding that you're using whether or not a city has open data to inform if you're going to expand into that location?\n\nMAGGIE: Kind of as a focus point. So, the way it works right now is Pointz is available actually anywhere in the U.S. So; it doesn't matter if you're in a city or a rural area, you can use Pointz. And you can use it for routing and navigation and all the features that are available. However, we only have visualized the ratings in all 350 or so urban areas in the U.S., and so those are all visualized, but not all of them have the supplemental city-data.\n\nAnd so, the way we decide when we pull in city data is based on gaps in, like, the base layer. So, if we're seeing that there are a lot of accuracy issues in a specific city, we'll go, and we'll look and see if there's a more accurate map that the city has put out or that an advocacy group has put out. And so, we've done this recently in Chicago, Minneapolis, Portland, Oregon, just to supplement the base layer of data, and it has helped a lot in terms of accuracy. And users or our riders really like it.\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. And what is your current level of usage in the app? How well have you been adopted?\n\nMAGGIE: Are you talking in terms of, like, user numbers or just, like, our engagement levels?\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, whatever you're using to measure your level of engagement or number of users on the app. Like, what are your stats looking like?\n\nMAGGIE: Yeah, so, we use...we have our overall signups. And then we have a subcategory of, like, active and engaged users. And so, for our overall signups, we're at just over 9,000 total signups since we launched the MVP, and we haven't marketed it at all kind of until right now, where we're trying to push it out in LA a bit more. \n\nAnd then, in terms of our engaged cohort, I'd have to pull up the exact number. But last I checked, it was around 1,800 monthly active users. We kind of look at that cohort, and then we break it down into, you know, who's even more engaged in that? Who's coming back every week, every day?\n\nMid-Roll Ad:\n\nVICTORIA: Introducing thoughtbot's ongoing maintenance service. Need reliable support and maintenance for your software? Look no further. Our expert team handles upgrades, bug fixes, UI adjustments, and new feature development. And the best part? Our maintenance packages start at just 5K per month for companies of all sizes.\n\nFrom Ruby on Rails to Node, React, and, yes, even PHP, we've got you covered. Trust thoughtbot for top-notch support and optimized performance.\n\nTo receive a custom quote, contact sales@thoughtbot.com. \n\nVICTORIA: And with me here, I have Richard Newman, who is the Development Director on our Boost Team, to talk to me a little bit more about what maintenance actually looks like once you've built your software application, right?\n\nRICHARD: Hi, Victoria. \n\nVICTORIA: Hi, Richard. You have experience building applications. I wonder if you could describe to a founder who's considering to build an application, like, what should they consider for their long-term maintenance?\n\nRICHARD: Well, like you said earlier, part of what you're going for with that long-term maintenance is making sure the health of your project, of your application, is always there. And you don't want to be surprised as you're continuing to work with your users and so forth. \n\nAnd so, a number of things that we pay attention to in maintenance are, we're paying attention to keeping the application secure, providing security updates. We want to make sure that the ecosystem, basically, all of the tools and third-party services that are tied to your application that, we're responding to those sorts of changes as we go along. \n\nAnd then part of it is, occasionally, you're going to find some smaller issues or bugs or so forth as your user group continues to grow or as needs continue to change. You want to be able to respond to those quickly as well. And so, a lot of what goes into maintenance is making sure that you're paying attention and you're ahead of those things before they surprise you.\n\nVICTORIA: Because what can happen? Like, what are the consequences if you don't do that ongoing maintenance?\n\nRICHARD: Well, the security updates those happen across gems and in the platform sort of tools that are there. And so, if you're not keeping those up to date, your exposure, your vulnerability to being hacked, or having a bad actor come into your application start growing on you if you're not doing the maintenance.\n\nThe other ones that can come up is there's new interfaces that these third-party services...they may be updating their APIs. They may be updating how you're supposed to work with their tool. And so, those can occasionally break if you're not paying attention to what's going on or you're suddenly surprised by an upgrade that you have to make. \n\nAnd then, finally, there's this long-term sort of code change that just builds up over time if you're not keeping it refactored for the changes that are upcoming in a language or the gems that you work with. And then, suddenly, after a while, it suddenly gets to the point where you have a lot of work that you might have to do to rehabilitate the application to take on some of the newer features that are being released. And so, that makes it that much more difficult, that much more friction about being able to deliver updates for your users or to be able to respond to changes that are happening out there in your application.\n\nVICTORIA: Right. So, if you don't have that ongoing maintenance, you could run into a situation where, suddenly, you need to make a very large investment and fixing whatever is broken.\n\nRICHARD: Absolutely. It's going to be very tough to plan for if you weren't keeping up all the way along and, yes, absolutely ends up being much slower if you have to remediate it.\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. I wonder if you have any examples of a project you've walked into and said, \"Wow, I wish we had been doing a little bit more maintenance.\" [laughs] And maybe you can share some details.\n\nRICHARD: Yeah. We had a fairly large application that involved a number of clinic services. So, we had an application that users were going in every day and counting on our fast response. And, over time, we've got surprised by a database upgrade that had to happen. Basically, the database was going to be changed by our third-party hosting service, and that hadn't been tested. There hadn't been procedures in place when we discovered this need. And there was a very hard date that that change had to be done or else the entire application was going to go down. \n\nAnd it came at a very inconvenient time, at the end of the year around Christmas, that we had to respond to all of that. And had we been in front of it and just updated it every quarter and staying current with it, it wouldn't have been nearly the lift that it turned out to be. We were facing a pretty hard deadline [laughs] there to keep things going. It was very, very stressful and disruptive for the team and potentially for the clinics.\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And it always happens around a big holiday or something like that, right? When it all comes to a head. So...\n\n[laughter]\n\nRICHARD: Absolutely. You want to be in control of the timeframe and not have the timeframe be in control of you.\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And if you have a team like thoughtbot supporting you, you can go on your vacation with a little bit more knowledge that if something breaks, there's someone there who can respond and fix things, and you don't have to interrupt your very valuable time off. So...\n\nRICHARD: [chuckles] Absolutely.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Richard, for joining me today. I appreciate you coming here to talk with us. And we'll talk to you again soon.\n\nRICHARD: Yeah, it was a pleasure. Thank you.\n\nVICTORIA: I'm wondering if you have any incentives built into the app for users who are, like, contributing data back, or maybe they're writing every single day. Are there any little challenges or achievements that you could unlock within the app right now?\n\nMAGGIE: We do have some gamification, yes. And so, the way that people can earn points on the app...we call them points with a Z because of the name. The way that they can earn those points are a couple of ways. So, one is through riding their bike and using Pointz as a navigation tool or as a tool to record their ride. And so, for that, you get one point for every mile. \n\nAnd then the second way is by contributing to the map, so either crowdsourcing an amenity like a bike parking that isn't on the map already or by adding information about a hazard that might be on the map, like, for example, a car parked in the bike lane. And for each of those, you know, you get one point. And so, yeah, we have that gamification system built out and a couple of...like, we have a leaderboard. And then, also, we have, like, a way for you to kind of go up in your avatar on the app. \n\nBut besides that, we do monthly contests. And so, this past month, we partnered up with a company called Po Campo, which makes stylish bike bags that can be taken off your bike and then worn as, like, a purse or a handbag. And so, they sponsored the prize, which is one of their bags, and whoever kind of gave the highest quality and quantity of crowdsourcing reviews and miles ridden they're the winner of the contest for this month of June.\n\nVICTORIA: That's very cool. I love to see that and hear about what strategies people have for engaging with their users within the app. I'm curious to go back to, you know when you two first met, how did you know that you were going to be good partners to work on this project together?\n\nTRISHA: One of the ways that we knew that was because we had first been introduced to each other from our mutual friend who is a close friend of both of ours, and she had been telling the other person about each other. And it was one day where we just met up, and we really clicked.\n\nBut, at that point, Maggie was looking for someone who could work on the mobile development, and I didn't have any experience with that. However, I joined a club, which Maggie was leading, which was called The Women's Entrepreneurship Group. And we got a chance to work together and plan out many events, including a large conference right before COVID hit. \n\nLike, we saw how we'd worked together. We really enjoyed it. And we had very similar aspirations and motivations towards entrepreneurship. When I had the chance to basically join what Maggie was already working on with Pointz in the summer of 2020, I knew that that was going to be a great opportunity. And we decided to become co-founders by the end of the summer.\n\nVICTORIA: That's very cool. And I know how important it is to have the right team together to work on a project like this and to start something up from scratch. So, were there other big turning points? And you mentioned COVID, so I'm curious how that affected the growth and progress of this effort. \n\nMAGGIE: Yeah, to be honest, in the heart of COVID, like 2020, we weren't really built yet. So, it didn't quite affect us a whole lot, just because the product didn't get launched until the spring of 2020 to actually, you know, kind of publicly. But there were a couple of other turning points in our company, one of them was Techstars and kind of the progress we made during Techstars. \n\nWe joined the accelerator, and we were having a bit of a hard time getting tech kind of pushed out really quickly. It was taking us a long time to build the features. And so, Trisha and I kind of evaluated why that was happening. And we came up with a process that worked a lot better, which we still use today. And speaking of team, we got a couple of really awesome teammates that made a huge difference on how quickly we could turn around features and bug fixes. And so, that was a really big turning point because we were able to iterate much more quickly and get feedback from our riders a lot faster. So that happened November, December of last year, of 2022. \n\nThe other big turning point, I would say, is the slider that we released in March of this past year of 2023. And so we were having a hard time retaining users and getting them to really like the routing because people who bike tend to be very opinionated. And if the route isn't exactly kind of how they wanted it, they would be upset. And so, we'd fix it for one group of users, and then we would upset another group that didn't want that, you know, added to the routing. \n\nWhat we ended up doing was releasing this safety slider, which has the fastest routes on the left side of the slider and then the safest or the longest routes on the right side of the slider. And that really helped people get a wide variety of routes that fit their use case. And it's helped a ton with retention. And also, the feedback we were getting from users really changed from, like, really honing in on a very specific issue with routes that they were getting to general feedback about how we could enhance the app and keep people coming back more consistently.\n\nTRISHA: I just want to emphasize again that, yeah, the team is really critical. And, like, on our team, we have really awesome people who are 10xers and just great. Also, have someone who worked at MapQuest and has...I think our combined mapping experience is around 20-plus years. So it's really awesome to have that sort of a team together.\n\nVICTORIA: Yes. And, you know, talking about it now on the podcast, in retrospect, I'm sure it all seems like it came together, and it was kismet, and everything just worked. But was that how it really felt? Or were there moments where you doubted it and thought, maybe this isn't going to come together?\n\nMAGGIE: Yeah, definitely. There were moments of that feeling. One thing that gave us a lot of confidence was getting to the point where we felt like we could really iterate quickly and release features at a consistent and predictable cadence. So that gave us confidence that you know, there is a process for this, and there's a process of gathering user feedback and rider feedback, and then translating that into features, or bug fixes, or UI fixes. I think that gave me a lot of confidence that we could solve it. \n\nBut, of course, it always takes a lot longer than you expect. And our advisor, Anuj, always says that 80% of what you're going to do won't work and 20% of it will. And it's all about how quickly you can iterate and figure out what works. And sometimes you get lucky, and it happens quicker. Or maybe you have unique insight into the problem, and you can guess, and it works out quicker. But I don't know; I definitely think it's been a learning process for everyone on our team.\n\nVICTORIA: That's great advice. And now that you've got your velocity up and you have your confidence, what's on the horizon? Are there new features that you all are working on that you're excited about?\n\nTRISHA: Yeah, so we're really excited about leaning into the whole generative AI trends that are happening, especially with ChatGPT and others. One thing that we've been hearing from most of our riders, people who use Pointz, is that using the app to create routes, which will allow them to explore new places, go to a new coffee shop that they've been hoping to go to but just don't know how to actually get there is critical. And most of our riders on Pointz are people who are new to a city. Maybe they've only lived there for a max of one year or less. So, exploring the area around them is really important to them, and that's why they use Pointz. \n\nAnd so, leaning into that, we're going to be releasing, in the next couple of weeks, a new explore feature where someone can go and, you know, describe to Pointz what type of route or...not even route, what type of things they want to see in a city, and Pointz will come up with that. It'll learn their preferences and continue to suggest really awesome places to get to, which they can do car-free, basically, through bikes, because they can be safe and, you know, they can rely on this app to get them through the city safely.\n\nVICTORIA: That's really exciting. And I'm excited to try it out myself [laughs] once you have that feature launched. Maybe you can tell me how that feature plays into...or what your success really looks like for Pointz in the next six months.\n\nMAGGIE: Yeah, so I think that feature is something that will be, I mean, of course, we got to test it, but I think that it will help people kind of use Pointz as an exploration tool more effectively. People are already using it for that, but it's not specifically built for exploration. Right now, it's built more for, I guess, routing to, you know, new places but not specifically, like, oh, let's go on a route that takes me through all these tourist destinations in the city I'm visiting. But this new feature will allow people to use it for that more. \n\nAnd I think, overall, you know, our mission at Pointz is to help people feel comfortable riding bikes so that they can drive less and feel like they can get around in a sustainable fashion, rather than having to rely on their car so often. And this feature is tied to that in the sense of, like, people can use it as a tool to help them, you know, find the safe route or a route they're comfortable with, and then use it to explore an area but maybe a bit more geared towards, like, tourists or, you know, more recreational-type use cases.\n\nVICTORIA: That's very cool. Thank you so much for sharing that. And what is your biggest challenge to achieving that success?\n\nMAGGIE: I think biking is a first step in that process of helping people feel like they can be more car-light or car-free, you know, use their car less. There are obviously a ton of other factors that go into whether or not you're driving, or you're taking a bike, or you're taking public transportation. And, you know, our next steps after we have really nailed this product are to explore those opportunities and build tools that help people choose alternative transportation more often. That's what we're excited about going into the future.\n\nYou know, there's a ton happening in cities all across the U.S., not only for biking but also investments in transit, infrastructure, and whatnot. So, you know, young people and people of all ages...I think a lot of people feel comfortable and that they don't want to be sitting in traffic a whole lot [laughs] because that's not fun for anyone. And, you know, traffic and congestion is always frustrating. So, as much as we can reduce that, I think that's the mission of our company. And, of course, it takes a ton of scale. But it's a big goal, but we're going after it.\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. You know, I heard about a town in the U.S. that actually had banned cars and was pedestrians only for the whole town. It's like, what a great idea. [laughs] But I love it. I love that you're working on it. And I wonder now, you know, you're a couple of years into it. If you could go back in time and give advice to yourself when you first started this project, what advice would you give yourself?\n\nMAGGIE: For me, I would say to get a minimal viable product more minimal, [chuckles] so reduce it to, like, a single feature, get it out quickly, and start getting feedback more quickly from, like, a very practical, you know, piece of advice.\n\nAnd then, like, an overall piece of advice would be just to be more confident earlier on. It took a long time for me to gain the confidence of, like, being a thought leader in the space. And, you know, I felt like I was young, so there were all these people that knew more than me. But I think everyone has a really unique perspective, and if you really lean into that and share that with the world, it can inspire a lot of people. And you just have to be confident enough to do that.\n\nTRISHA: Yeah, I definitely second what Maggie just said. I think also from the tech perspective, if you're someone who is maybe more inexperienced, like, I just got out of college and did this, and I have never worked a full-time job before anywhere except this. And so I think there was a lot of doubt that I had of being able to lead the technical side because I didn't have 20 years experience working somewhere. \n\nBut, actually, at the end of the day, that doesn't matter. It just matters that you're able to be in touch with what it takes to build certain features and talk to the users, or your riders, or whoever because they're the ones who are going to be dictating whether this is a success or not based on what you build. It's really not good if you're building and wasting a lot of resources and time on features which nobody wants or nobody uses. And so, that's been core to why I think I've gotten a lot of confidence in being able to be, like, the tech leader in this app and in this space.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I'm curious to hear more about that. You touched on this really being your first full-time job. So, how do you build your personal brand as an executive leader in this company that you're building?\n\nTRISHA: For anyone who does startups, they'll know that it's a lot of figuring it out as you go, and things that you're taught in school don't necessarily translate well to the startup world because, like, I did, like, a Bachelor of Science in Computer Science. I did operating systems. I built a whole bunch of random stuff in school, and I studied for hours and hours.\n\nOf a lot of that, the most important thing, which actually translates to working in my field, is the perseverance to, like, keep going and working really hard. Otherwise, none of that stuff which I learned honestly translates. I had to learn everything myself with regards to building mobile apps. And I think the foundations were really critical from school but not really much of the hours of studying. I don't think that that's necessary, but I think it's necessary to build that sort of perseverance mindset.\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense sort of to reflect that back a little bit, just having the perseverance to keep pushing, and keep learning, and keep understanding what is it going to take to build the features that you want? And that's really the core of being a CTO, right?\n\nTRISHA: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.\n\nVICTORIA: And, Maggie, I wonder about you as well, like, what resources are you drawing on to really perform as a CEO for this company?\n\nTRISHA: One thing that I read a lot is...it's more product-focused, actually, but it's product and growth-focused. It's Lenny's Newsletter, which I mentioned earlier. I use that as a resource a lot. I listen to their podcasts, and I read their articles. \n\nAnd then secondly, I interact a lot with other CEOs and founders because I think that's one of the best ways you can learn is from other people who are in it right now, maybe are a couple of steps ahead of you, or who have done it before. And so, I lean into that quite a bit. And just, you know, try to get advice from people, take what makes sense, and apply it to what we're working on.\n\nVICTORIA: That sounds great, yeah. I can relate to that; just building your personal network with people who are in similar roles helps you stay in touch and understand what other challenges people are facing and what you might face someday, right? [laughs] That's really cool. I love that you have all that set up. \n\nAnd is there anything else that you all would like to promote today?\n\nMAGGIE: I would just say to anybody who's interested in biking or maybe is, like, a beginner rider, we'd love to have you try out the app and then explore your area and give it a try one weekend when you have some time and see if you feel more confident, you know, given the routes that are on more green and protected roads.\n\nVICTORIA: I'm really excited to be talking to you because I am that person. I need this app. [laughs] I'm excited to try it out. Thank you, Maggie and Trisha, for joining us today. [laughs] It was a really great conversation, and I'm excited to follow along and see what happens with Pointz in the coming years. \n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. See you next time.\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.Special Guests: Maggie Bachenberg and Trisha Ballakur.","content_html":"Introducing thoughtbot's ongoing maintenance service. Need reliable support and maintenance for your software? Look no further. Our expert team handles upgrades, bug fixes, UI adjustments, and new feature development. And the best part? Our maintenance packages start at just 5k per month for companies of all sizes.
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\n\nMaggie Bachenberg, CEO, and Trisha Ballakur, CTO, are the co-founders of Pointz, a mobile mapping app that helps navigate bike and scooter riders through safe routes in cities.
\n\nVictoria talks to Maggie and Trisha about their cycling backgrounds, how they met and became co-founders, and what they feel is the differentiator for their app versus what was/is already on the market for biking-related apps.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. With me today is Maggie Bachenberg, CEO and Co-Founder of Pointz, and Trisha Ballakur, CTO and Co-Founder of Pointz, a mobile mapping app that helps navigate bike and scooter riders through safe routes in cities.
\n\nJust to get us started here, are you both cyclists? And if so, where do you do that at? What's your city? Where do you bike around?
\n\nMAGGIE: Yeah, we both bike. So I live in Providence, Rhode Island, along with Trisha, and use my bike primarily as a transportation device. So I'm riding around from my house to work, to get groceries, to my friend's house, kind of all different types of purposes.
\n\nTRISHA: Yeah, and I grew up biking but kind of stopped after age, like, six or seven. And it was only when I got to college at Brown, where I met Maggie, that I got back into it and felt more confident to get back on the bike. And that was completely actually because of Pointz.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that's nice. Yeah, speaking of confidence, I am not confident on a bicycle. I actually only learned after college. [laughs] And there's a video out there of my college friends helping me learn how to ride a bike. It's very cute. But still not my expertise. So I'm excited to learn more about it and learn about how Pointz could give you that confidence. So, whoever who'd like to start, why don't you tell me about what caused you to want to create Pointz?
\n\nMAGGIE: Pointz was originally kind of my idea. And I got into biking in 2017 when I did a long-distance bike trip. I biked from Virginia to California. And it was my first time doing long-distance cycling, and I just kind of fell in love with it.
\n\nBut I realized that when I was riding, it was pretty scary to navigate cities in particular. And so, a lot of locals would redirect me onto different routes that were safer. And I was confused why this wasn't captured in a mapping app already. And so, that's kind of where the idea was seeded. But I didn't start working on it until I got to college and met Trisha.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. So you got to college, and you saw that there was a need to have easier access to biking and biking information in an area, right?
\n\nMAGGIE: Yeah, exactly.
\n\nVICTORIA: Very cool. What was that initial process like? It was just the two of you, and you started building stuff? How did you really get the traction going early on?
\n\nMAGGIE: It started with doing some customer discovery interviews with local cyclists. And so we interviewed over 100 initially and just asked kind of what their biggest barrier was to start riding. And we kept hearing this recurring theme of people not feeling safe enough to go on different routes.
\n\nAnd so we brainstormed a bunch of different ideas in a class that Trisha and I were in together. But we ended up landing on the one that we're working on today, which is, like, you know, the rating system, and then also putting the rating system of bike friendliness into a routing algorithm where people could actually find routes.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's very cool. And was there anything that really surprised you in that customer discovery process?
\n\nMAGGIE: Just maybe the consistency around people's fear and, like, I guess, being nervous on a bike because we were interviewing people of all types of backgrounds and experiences. And even people that were more experienced had this fear of getting hit by a car because of lack of infrastructure and that sort of thing.
\n\nTRISHA: Doing customer discovery and chatting with so many different types of riders...and we call them riders, bike riders, rather than cyclists for the distinction that, you know, in the bike riding community, there's a lot of very avid fitness-geared cyclists, maybe who want to go on their bikes to burn calories and challenge themselves.
\n\nA lot of people they would call themselves someone who rides a bike. And it's to those types of people where safety is really critical, especially in allowing new people to go and try to ride a bike for the first time or the first time in many years. And so, that's something else that we noticed from those customer discovery interviews is identifying the different types of riders.
\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you. That clears it up for me because I never know to call someone a cyclist or a rider, but it makes sense that cyclist is more, like, the athletic pursuit versus riding and, you know, just trying to get about your day. [laughs] And it also makes me feel better that even people who are really experienced riders have fear of being unsafe or getting hit by a car because that's certainly what I'm thinking about when I'm [laughs] venturing out there. So, what was your initial build like for the app solving this problem?
\n\nTRISHA: Initially, we had a couple of different Brown University interns or students working on it together one summer and myself included. And that evolved to me and this one other student who was working with us figuring out how to transition the app from, like, an iOS Swift native app to React Native so it could be cross-platform. And we had to teach ourselves React Native for that.
\n\nSo our intern at the time he had done an internship during the summer at this one startup where they taught him React Native. So he had done a couple of projects there. And I had a little bit of experience writing in JavaScript but really not as much as him. And so, together, we worked on coding the app from what we had in iOS in Swift, which was pretty limiting. But, at the time, it wasn't very much.
\n\nBut we were able to replicate that in React Native during; I think it was my junior...Maggie in my junior winter break. That became the start of our MVP, which had many, many more iterations to get all the features in and was a little bit slow to build until when we released it out, which was our senior year in about March or so.
\n\nVICTORIA: So that's really exciting. So, like, how long did it take you to really get to that initial MVP with the team that you have?
\n\nTRISHA: It took quite a bit longer than expected, as with all sorts of technology when you're building it for the first time. So what was important to us throughout the process was making sure that all the features we put out there were really well tested, and were useful, and were actually solving the problem of providing safer routing.
\n\nAnd to get to that stage, at first, we, you know, we had an app in Swift. Then we wanted to make it cross-platformed, and we needed to have the routing algorithm actually take those different weights, the different bike friendliness ratings of the roads into account. And that took a lot of researching and talking to mentors. So there were quite a few really hard challenges to get to the MVP, which is why it spanned about a year to get to that point.
\n\nBut throughout it all, we worked with other students at Brown. Then we pulled in some front-end contractors from online, like contractor sites, who were awesome. And we were just focused on being really scrappy to get it out in March of 2022.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. And maybe it felt like a long time, but I feel like a year for a really solid MVP is pretty good, [laughs] especially when you have those safety concerns, and the quality of your data, and what you're giving out is super important. So now you've got the MVP, and I believe you just raised your round of seed funding last year. What was that process like for you?
\n\nMAGGIE: Yes, so the round of funding that we did, we raised the first initial amount actually going into our senior year, and that was from a firm called Rogue Venture Partners. And we also got a little bit of it from their Women's Fund. And, yeah, that was the kind of piece of funding that got us started and allowed us to really, you know, add additional resources to the product to get it out there, at least the MVP. And then, after that, we got a little bit more funding from them.
\n\nAnd then we raised money from Techstars as well because we got into their accelerator at The Roux Institute. That's kind of in association with Northeastern, and that was out of Portland, Maine. I guess it wasn't really necessarily, like, a cohesive round. It was, like, a couple of different checks that all kind of went into, like, our early funding for Pointz.
\n\nAnd I would say it was very much so based on, you know, our relationship that we had with our initial venture firm that were working with Rogue. They actually mentored us for quite a few months before they invested in us. So they started mentoring us our junior year when we were in school. And then we got the deal together September of 2021.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's awesome. Well, congratulations. And I'm glad you were able to find the right partnerships, and mentors, and funding that you needed. What did you find was really the differentiator for your app versus what was already on the market for biking-related apps?
\n\nMAGGIE: There are a couple of different types of competitors, so there are the biking-related apps that you just mentioned, and then there are the general kind of use case apps like Google Maps or Apple Maps. And so, for the bike-related apps, the main thing that's different about Pointz is that we're more focused on, like, bike riders in general, so people that are riding around for transportation and recreation, not so much the cyclist type of a person that Trisha described earlier.
\n\nSo, you know, a lot of our features are geared towards people that are getting around the city or maybe are exploring a city or a neighborhood. It doesn't necessarily have to be a city, but that's kind of the focus. Whereas for other cycling-specific apps, like Komoot or Ride with GPS, it's focused a lot on, like, the fitness side of things and the recreation fitness side of riders. And so, at least the Ride with GPS and a few other of, like, the technologies that are available to more hardcore cyclists tend to have a more sharp learning curve. And ours was built more as, like, a general use case in navigating and exploring.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. So it's more for people like me who are trying to go the most scenic [laughs] or the flattest and the safest way, not necessarily the fastest or the more fitness-focused aspect of cycling and biking.
\n\nMAGGIE: Yeah, exactly. And, you know, we actually built this for people like us. Granted, I did do that long-distance bike trip. But, generally, I don't consider myself that hardcore of a rider, I mean, in my daily life. So it's for people who don't really identify as a cyclist and are more just, like, riding their bike around and, honestly, for people who are new to riding in general.
\n\nBecause a lot of our riders have recently gotten into biking or have recently moved to a new area, and so, they're just trying to figure out, you know, where are the good places to ride? Where do I feel safe? And, you know, how can I get more comfortable on my bike?
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm loving this idea because I have a bike that's been sitting in my patio for over a year. [laughs] I haven't used...my partner is like, "Can we get rid of it? Because you don't use it." But I'm like, "I will. I will use it." I know my neighborhood problem is that there are giant hills if we leave our street here. So getting out is fine. But getting back in [laughs], it's like you need an electric bike. So that's very exciting.
\n\nSo, tell me more about now that you've graduated and you're taking this up full time; what does the future look like? What's on your horizon?
\n\nMAGGIE: I mean, we've been working a lot with one of our advisors on, you know, getting to the point where people really love the product, and that's been kind of happening over the last year. We met Anuj Adhiya from Lenny's Newsletter. We've been working with him to really hone in on what the thing is that people really love about Pointz and make that experience better. And then also figure out what exactly the persona is so we can target them eventually with marketing, which is kind of the stage that we're at right now.
\n\nSo we were seeing our retention curves really evening out in especially a couple of cities that we're targeting. And so, this summer, we're focusing on getting our user base up in Los Angeles and then trying to figure out how, like, a playbook for scaling up a user base in a specific geography. Right now, a lot of our users are distributed throughout the United States. And there are clusters, but there's not, like, a huge spike in one city. And so, that's what we're working on right now is figuring out how to get a geographic kind of density to happen.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. And it sounded like the app also uses a lot of user-generated data for safety ratings and things like that. Am I getting that accurately?
\n\nTRISHA: Yep, that's correct. And what we do is we have a bunch of different layers of our data that we pull from. We have a base layer of data that comes from OpenStreetMap, and then we build on top of that. We rate all roads on a one through five bike friendliness scale. And building on top of that, we pull from city-specific data sets from cities, and towns, and municipalities. And then, we layer on the crowdsourcing similar to how Waze does at the top.
\n\nVICTORIA: Got it. So taking advantage of that open data, the open city data, and what other data the city is putting out there. Are you finding that you're using whether or not a city has open data to inform if you're going to expand into that location?
\n\nMAGGIE: Kind of as a focus point. So, the way it works right now is Pointz is available actually anywhere in the U.S. So; it doesn't matter if you're in a city or a rural area, you can use Pointz. And you can use it for routing and navigation and all the features that are available. However, we only have visualized the ratings in all 350 or so urban areas in the U.S., and so those are all visualized, but not all of them have the supplemental city-data.
\n\nAnd so, the way we decide when we pull in city data is based on gaps in, like, the base layer. So, if we're seeing that there are a lot of accuracy issues in a specific city, we'll go, and we'll look and see if there's a more accurate map that the city has put out or that an advocacy group has put out. And so, we've done this recently in Chicago, Minneapolis, Portland, Oregon, just to supplement the base layer of data, and it has helped a lot in terms of accuracy. And users or our riders really like it.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. And what is your current level of usage in the app? How well have you been adopted?
\n\nMAGGIE: Are you talking in terms of, like, user numbers or just, like, our engagement levels?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, whatever you're using to measure your level of engagement or number of users on the app. Like, what are your stats looking like?
\n\nMAGGIE: Yeah, so, we use...we have our overall signups. And then we have a subcategory of, like, active and engaged users. And so, for our overall signups, we're at just over 9,000 total signups since we launched the MVP, and we haven't marketed it at all kind of until right now, where we're trying to push it out in LA a bit more.
\n\nAnd then, in terms of our engaged cohort, I'd have to pull up the exact number. But last I checked, it was around 1,800 monthly active users. We kind of look at that cohort, and then we break it down into, you know, who's even more engaged in that? Who's coming back every week, every day?
\n\nMid-Roll Ad:
\n\nVICTORIA: Introducing thoughtbot's ongoing maintenance service. Need reliable support and maintenance for your software? Look no further. Our expert team handles upgrades, bug fixes, UI adjustments, and new feature development. And the best part? Our maintenance packages start at just 5K per month for companies of all sizes.
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\n\nVICTORIA: And with me here, I have Richard Newman, who is the Development Director on our Boost Team, to talk to me a little bit more about what maintenance actually looks like once you've built your software application, right?
\n\nRICHARD: Hi, Victoria.
\n\nVICTORIA: Hi, Richard. You have experience building applications. I wonder if you could describe to a founder who's considering to build an application, like, what should they consider for their long-term maintenance?
\n\nRICHARD: Well, like you said earlier, part of what you're going for with that long-term maintenance is making sure the health of your project, of your application, is always there. And you don't want to be surprised as you're continuing to work with your users and so forth.
\n\nAnd so, a number of things that we pay attention to in maintenance are, we're paying attention to keeping the application secure, providing security updates. We want to make sure that the ecosystem, basically, all of the tools and third-party services that are tied to your application that, we're responding to those sorts of changes as we go along.
\n\nAnd then part of it is, occasionally, you're going to find some smaller issues or bugs or so forth as your user group continues to grow or as needs continue to change. You want to be able to respond to those quickly as well. And so, a lot of what goes into maintenance is making sure that you're paying attention and you're ahead of those things before they surprise you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Because what can happen? Like, what are the consequences if you don't do that ongoing maintenance?
\n\nRICHARD: Well, the security updates those happen across gems and in the platform sort of tools that are there. And so, if you're not keeping those up to date, your exposure, your vulnerability to being hacked, or having a bad actor come into your application start growing on you if you're not doing the maintenance.
\n\nThe other ones that can come up is there's new interfaces that these third-party services...they may be updating their APIs. They may be updating how you're supposed to work with their tool. And so, those can occasionally break if you're not paying attention to what's going on or you're suddenly surprised by an upgrade that you have to make.
\n\nAnd then, finally, there's this long-term sort of code change that just builds up over time if you're not keeping it refactored for the changes that are upcoming in a language or the gems that you work with. And then, suddenly, after a while, it suddenly gets to the point where you have a lot of work that you might have to do to rehabilitate the application to take on some of the newer features that are being released. And so, that makes it that much more difficult, that much more friction about being able to deliver updates for your users or to be able to respond to changes that are happening out there in your application.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. So, if you don't have that ongoing maintenance, you could run into a situation where, suddenly, you need to make a very large investment and fixing whatever is broken.
\n\nRICHARD: Absolutely. It's going to be very tough to plan for if you weren't keeping up all the way along and, yes, absolutely ends up being much slower if you have to remediate it.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. I wonder if you have any examples of a project you've walked into and said, "Wow, I wish we had been doing a little bit more maintenance." [laughs] And maybe you can share some details.
\n\nRICHARD: Yeah. We had a fairly large application that involved a number of clinic services. So, we had an application that users were going in every day and counting on our fast response. And, over time, we've got surprised by a database upgrade that had to happen. Basically, the database was going to be changed by our third-party hosting service, and that hadn't been tested. There hadn't been procedures in place when we discovered this need. And there was a very hard date that that change had to be done or else the entire application was going to go down.
\n\nAnd it came at a very inconvenient time, at the end of the year around Christmas, that we had to respond to all of that. And had we been in front of it and just updated it every quarter and staying current with it, it wouldn't have been nearly the lift that it turned out to be. We were facing a pretty hard deadline [laughs] there to keep things going. It was very, very stressful and disruptive for the team and potentially for the clinics.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And it always happens around a big holiday or something like that, right? When it all comes to a head. So...
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nRICHARD: Absolutely. You want to be in control of the timeframe and not have the timeframe be in control of you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And if you have a team like thoughtbot supporting you, you can go on your vacation with a little bit more knowledge that if something breaks, there's someone there who can respond and fix things, and you don't have to interrupt your very valuable time off. So...
\n\nRICHARD: [chuckles] Absolutely.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Richard, for joining me today. I appreciate you coming here to talk with us. And we'll talk to you again soon.
\n\nRICHARD: Yeah, it was a pleasure. Thank you.
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm wondering if you have any incentives built into the app for users who are, like, contributing data back, or maybe they're writing every single day. Are there any little challenges or achievements that you could unlock within the app right now?
\n\nMAGGIE: We do have some gamification, yes. And so, the way that people can earn points on the app...we call them points with a Z because of the name. The way that they can earn those points are a couple of ways. So, one is through riding their bike and using Pointz as a navigation tool or as a tool to record their ride. And so, for that, you get one point for every mile.
\n\nAnd then the second way is by contributing to the map, so either crowdsourcing an amenity like a bike parking that isn't on the map already or by adding information about a hazard that might be on the map, like, for example, a car parked in the bike lane. And for each of those, you know, you get one point. And so, yeah, we have that gamification system built out and a couple of...like, we have a leaderboard. And then, also, we have, like, a way for you to kind of go up in your avatar on the app.
\n\nBut besides that, we do monthly contests. And so, this past month, we partnered up with a company called Po Campo, which makes stylish bike bags that can be taken off your bike and then worn as, like, a purse or a handbag. And so, they sponsored the prize, which is one of their bags, and whoever kind of gave the highest quality and quantity of crowdsourcing reviews and miles ridden they're the winner of the contest for this month of June.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's very cool. I love to see that and hear about what strategies people have for engaging with their users within the app. I'm curious to go back to, you know when you two first met, how did you know that you were going to be good partners to work on this project together?
\n\nTRISHA: One of the ways that we knew that was because we had first been introduced to each other from our mutual friend who is a close friend of both of ours, and she had been telling the other person about each other. And it was one day where we just met up, and we really clicked.
\n\nBut, at that point, Maggie was looking for someone who could work on the mobile development, and I didn't have any experience with that. However, I joined a club, which Maggie was leading, which was called The Women's Entrepreneurship Group. And we got a chance to work together and plan out many events, including a large conference right before COVID hit.
\n\nLike, we saw how we'd worked together. We really enjoyed it. And we had very similar aspirations and motivations towards entrepreneurship. When I had the chance to basically join what Maggie was already working on with Pointz in the summer of 2020, I knew that that was going to be a great opportunity. And we decided to become co-founders by the end of the summer.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's very cool. And I know how important it is to have the right team together to work on a project like this and to start something up from scratch. So, were there other big turning points? And you mentioned COVID, so I'm curious how that affected the growth and progress of this effort.
\n\nMAGGIE: Yeah, to be honest, in the heart of COVID, like 2020, we weren't really built yet. So, it didn't quite affect us a whole lot, just because the product didn't get launched until the spring of 2020 to actually, you know, kind of publicly. But there were a couple of other turning points in our company, one of them was Techstars and kind of the progress we made during Techstars.
\n\nWe joined the accelerator, and we were having a bit of a hard time getting tech kind of pushed out really quickly. It was taking us a long time to build the features. And so, Trisha and I kind of evaluated why that was happening. And we came up with a process that worked a lot better, which we still use today. And speaking of team, we got a couple of really awesome teammates that made a huge difference on how quickly we could turn around features and bug fixes. And so, that was a really big turning point because we were able to iterate much more quickly and get feedback from our riders a lot faster. So that happened November, December of last year, of 2022.
\n\nThe other big turning point, I would say, is the slider that we released in March of this past year of 2023. And so we were having a hard time retaining users and getting them to really like the routing because people who bike tend to be very opinionated. And if the route isn't exactly kind of how they wanted it, they would be upset. And so, we'd fix it for one group of users, and then we would upset another group that didn't want that, you know, added to the routing.
\n\nWhat we ended up doing was releasing this safety slider, which has the fastest routes on the left side of the slider and then the safest or the longest routes on the right side of the slider. And that really helped people get a wide variety of routes that fit their use case. And it's helped a ton with retention. And also, the feedback we were getting from users really changed from, like, really honing in on a very specific issue with routes that they were getting to general feedback about how we could enhance the app and keep people coming back more consistently.
\n\nTRISHA: I just want to emphasize again that, yeah, the team is really critical. And, like, on our team, we have really awesome people who are 10xers and just great. Also, have someone who worked at MapQuest and has...I think our combined mapping experience is around 20-plus years. So it's really awesome to have that sort of a team together.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes. And, you know, talking about it now on the podcast, in retrospect, I'm sure it all seems like it came together, and it was kismet, and everything just worked. But was that how it really felt? Or were there moments where you doubted it and thought, maybe this isn't going to come together?
\n\nMAGGIE: Yeah, definitely. There were moments of that feeling. One thing that gave us a lot of confidence was getting to the point where we felt like we could really iterate quickly and release features at a consistent and predictable cadence. So that gave us confidence that you know, there is a process for this, and there's a process of gathering user feedback and rider feedback, and then translating that into features, or bug fixes, or UI fixes. I think that gave me a lot of confidence that we could solve it.
\n\nBut, of course, it always takes a lot longer than you expect. And our advisor, Anuj, always says that 80% of what you're going to do won't work and 20% of it will. And it's all about how quickly you can iterate and figure out what works. And sometimes you get lucky, and it happens quicker. Or maybe you have unique insight into the problem, and you can guess, and it works out quicker. But I don't know; I definitely think it's been a learning process for everyone on our team.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great advice. And now that you've got your velocity up and you have your confidence, what's on the horizon? Are there new features that you all are working on that you're excited about?
\n\nTRISHA: Yeah, so we're really excited about leaning into the whole generative AI trends that are happening, especially with ChatGPT and others. One thing that we've been hearing from most of our riders, people who use Pointz, is that using the app to create routes, which will allow them to explore new places, go to a new coffee shop that they've been hoping to go to but just don't know how to actually get there is critical. And most of our riders on Pointz are people who are new to a city. Maybe they've only lived there for a max of one year or less. So, exploring the area around them is really important to them, and that's why they use Pointz.
\n\nAnd so, leaning into that, we're going to be releasing, in the next couple of weeks, a new explore feature where someone can go and, you know, describe to Pointz what type of route or...not even route, what type of things they want to see in a city, and Pointz will come up with that. It'll learn their preferences and continue to suggest really awesome places to get to, which they can do car-free, basically, through bikes, because they can be safe and, you know, they can rely on this app to get them through the city safely.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really exciting. And I'm excited to try it out myself [laughs] once you have that feature launched. Maybe you can tell me how that feature plays into...or what your success really looks like for Pointz in the next six months.
\n\nMAGGIE: Yeah, so I think that feature is something that will be, I mean, of course, we got to test it, but I think that it will help people kind of use Pointz as an exploration tool more effectively. People are already using it for that, but it's not specifically built for exploration. Right now, it's built more for, I guess, routing to, you know, new places but not specifically, like, oh, let's go on a route that takes me through all these tourist destinations in the city I'm visiting. But this new feature will allow people to use it for that more.
\n\nAnd I think, overall, you know, our mission at Pointz is to help people feel comfortable riding bikes so that they can drive less and feel like they can get around in a sustainable fashion, rather than having to rely on their car so often. And this feature is tied to that in the sense of, like, people can use it as a tool to help them, you know, find the safe route or a route they're comfortable with, and then use it to explore an area but maybe a bit more geared towards, like, tourists or, you know, more recreational-type use cases.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's very cool. Thank you so much for sharing that. And what is your biggest challenge to achieving that success?
\n\nMAGGIE: I think biking is a first step in that process of helping people feel like they can be more car-light or car-free, you know, use their car less. There are obviously a ton of other factors that go into whether or not you're driving, or you're taking a bike, or you're taking public transportation. And, you know, our next steps after we have really nailed this product are to explore those opportunities and build tools that help people choose alternative transportation more often. That's what we're excited about going into the future.
\n\nYou know, there's a ton happening in cities all across the U.S., not only for biking but also investments in transit, infrastructure, and whatnot. So, you know, young people and people of all ages...I think a lot of people feel comfortable and that they don't want to be sitting in traffic a whole lot [laughs] because that's not fun for anyone. And, you know, traffic and congestion is always frustrating. So, as much as we can reduce that, I think that's the mission of our company. And, of course, it takes a ton of scale. But it's a big goal, but we're going after it.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. You know, I heard about a town in the U.S. that actually had banned cars and was pedestrians only for the whole town. It's like, what a great idea. [laughs] But I love it. I love that you're working on it. And I wonder now, you know, you're a couple of years into it. If you could go back in time and give advice to yourself when you first started this project, what advice would you give yourself?
\n\nMAGGIE: For me, I would say to get a minimal viable product more minimal, [chuckles] so reduce it to, like, a single feature, get it out quickly, and start getting feedback more quickly from, like, a very practical, you know, piece of advice.
\n\nAnd then, like, an overall piece of advice would be just to be more confident earlier on. It took a long time for me to gain the confidence of, like, being a thought leader in the space. And, you know, I felt like I was young, so there were all these people that knew more than me. But I think everyone has a really unique perspective, and if you really lean into that and share that with the world, it can inspire a lot of people. And you just have to be confident enough to do that.
\n\nTRISHA: Yeah, I definitely second what Maggie just said. I think also from the tech perspective, if you're someone who is maybe more inexperienced, like, I just got out of college and did this, and I have never worked a full-time job before anywhere except this. And so I think there was a lot of doubt that I had of being able to lead the technical side because I didn't have 20 years experience working somewhere.
\n\nBut, actually, at the end of the day, that doesn't matter. It just matters that you're able to be in touch with what it takes to build certain features and talk to the users, or your riders, or whoever because they're the ones who are going to be dictating whether this is a success or not based on what you build. It's really not good if you're building and wasting a lot of resources and time on features which nobody wants or nobody uses. And so, that's been core to why I think I've gotten a lot of confidence in being able to be, like, the tech leader in this app and in this space.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I'm curious to hear more about that. You touched on this really being your first full-time job. So, how do you build your personal brand as an executive leader in this company that you're building?
\n\nTRISHA: For anyone who does startups, they'll know that it's a lot of figuring it out as you go, and things that you're taught in school don't necessarily translate well to the startup world because, like, I did, like, a Bachelor of Science in Computer Science. I did operating systems. I built a whole bunch of random stuff in school, and I studied for hours and hours.
\n\nOf a lot of that, the most important thing, which actually translates to working in my field, is the perseverance to, like, keep going and working really hard. Otherwise, none of that stuff which I learned honestly translates. I had to learn everything myself with regards to building mobile apps. And I think the foundations were really critical from school but not really much of the hours of studying. I don't think that that's necessary, but I think it's necessary to build that sort of perseverance mindset.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense sort of to reflect that back a little bit, just having the perseverance to keep pushing, and keep learning, and keep understanding what is it going to take to build the features that you want? And that's really the core of being a CTO, right?
\n\nTRISHA: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
\n\nVICTORIA: And, Maggie, I wonder about you as well, like, what resources are you drawing on to really perform as a CEO for this company?
\n\nTRISHA: One thing that I read a lot is...it's more product-focused, actually, but it's product and growth-focused. It's Lenny's Newsletter, which I mentioned earlier. I use that as a resource a lot. I listen to their podcasts, and I read their articles.
\n\nAnd then secondly, I interact a lot with other CEOs and founders because I think that's one of the best ways you can learn is from other people who are in it right now, maybe are a couple of steps ahead of you, or who have done it before. And so, I lean into that quite a bit. And just, you know, try to get advice from people, take what makes sense, and apply it to what we're working on.
\n\nVICTORIA: That sounds great, yeah. I can relate to that; just building your personal network with people who are in similar roles helps you stay in touch and understand what other challenges people are facing and what you might face someday, right? [laughs] That's really cool. I love that you have all that set up.
\n\nAnd is there anything else that you all would like to promote today?
\n\nMAGGIE: I would just say to anybody who's interested in biking or maybe is, like, a beginner rider, we'd love to have you try out the app and then explore your area and give it a try one weekend when you have some time and see if you feel more confident, you know, given the routes that are on more green and protected roads.
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm really excited to be talking to you because I am that person. I need this app. [laughs] I'm excited to try it out. Thank you, Maggie and Trisha, for joining us today. [laughs] It was a really great conversation, and I'm excited to follow along and see what happens with Pointz in the coming years.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guests: Maggie Bachenberg and Trisha Ballakur.
","summary":"Maggie Bachenberg, CEO, and Trisha Ballakur, CTO, are the co-founders of Pointz, a mobile mapping app that helps navigate bike and scooter riders through safe routes in cities. \r\n\r\nVictoria talks to Maggie and Trisha about their cycling backgrounds, how they met and became co-founders, and what they feel is the differentiator for their app versus what was/is already on the market for biking-related apps.","date_published":"2023-07-27T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/fbeccb0c-e0f7-46e8-a01e-a302462c735e.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":42059401,"duration_in_seconds":2292}]},{"id":"813476f9-eae5-469d-8bf3-339cf5936269","title":"484: Ruby On Rails: The Podcast with Brittany Martin","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/484","content_text":"Introducing thoughtbot's ongoing maintenance service. Need reliable support and maintenance for your software? Look no further. Our expert team handles upgrades, bug fixes, UI adjustments, and new feature development. And the best part? Our maintenance packages start at just 5k per month for companies of all sizes.\n\nFrom Ruby on Rails to Node, React, and, yes, even PHP, we've got you covered. Trust thoughtbot for top-notch support and optimized performance.\n\nTo receive a custom quote, contact sales@thoughtbot.com. \n\n--\n\nBrittany Martin is an Engineering Manager at Shogun, where she manages a team of Ruby and React engineers and is the Co-host of The Ruby on Rails Podcast.\n\nVictoria and Will talk to Brittany about the multitude of stuff she's interested in, including Roller Derby, and gives the story of how she found herself co-hosting the show. She says knowing what your brand is and what listeners should expect from listening to you is super important, and she gives her opinion on what it means to be in the Ruby on Rails Community.\n\n\nShogun\nThe Ruby on Rails Podcast\nFollow Brittany Martin on LinkedIn or Twitter, or visit her website.\nFollow thoughtbot on Twitter or LinkedIn.\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido.\n\nWILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. And with us today is Brittany Martin, an Engineering Manager at Shogun, where she manages a team of Ruby and React engineers. She is the Co-host of The Ruby on Rails Podcast, almost five years running. And she plays roller derby for Steel City Roller Derby under the pseudonym, catch this, Merge Conflict. She is based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Brittany, thank you for joining us.\n\nBRITTANY: I am so thrilled to be on here. I have been listening to Giant Robots for years. So it's an absolute honor to be on the show today.\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, thank you so much for joining us. And I met you at RailsConf this year. And, at the time, you had a boot on your foot. So, I have to ask you, are you healed? Are you recovered? Are you walking around again?\n\nBRITTANY: This is such a good question. When I was between jobs in March, I was, you know, having these two weeks, I had a whole list of things that I was going to be doing. You know, I was going to train, like, running and whatnot. And I had roller derby practice that first week, and I broke my ankle. And, you know, going into it, I had no idea what a blocker it was going to be. I was like, oh, this is minor. It'll just take a couple of weeks to heal. No, it's been a long process.\n\nBut I can gleefully tell the listeners that I am out of the boot. I am walking. I am hopefully getting into a sports program next week that will train me up to get back into CrossFit, running, and skating. Though the really funny part is that I currently have another injury which is golfer's elbow. [laughs]\n\nWILL: Oh, wow. \n\nBRITTANY: Yeah. So I have that from overusing my arms. So I'm a little bit of a mess, but, you know, getting myself back together physically so I can get back on my skates.\n\nWILL: So I know it's called golfer's elbow. But did you actually hurt it doing golf, or was it another sport you were playing?\n\nBRITTANY: It's so funny that you ask that, Will, because whenever people ask me how I broke my ankle, I can be glamorous and be like, \"Oh, it was roller derby.\"\n\nWILL: [laughs]\n\nBRITTANY: Like, it's a sexy injury, you know. I have a friend who just broke their ankle because they were dancing down the stairs and broke it, not as glamorous of a story, right?\n\nWILL: [laughs]\n\nBRITTANY: Golfer's elbow. I literally have no idea how this happened. I've never golfed a day in my life. So [laughter] it's my non-glamorous injury at this point.\n\nWILL: Yeah, that's my background, sports medicine. \n\nBRITTANY: Oh, great. \n\nWILL: So it's interesting. Yeah, golfer's elbow, and I'm like, it's usually not golf that does it. So...[laughs]\n\nBRITTANY: Yeah. So I said something to my PT. I was like, \"Am I the first person to ever get golfer's elbow from, like, you know, fixing another injury?\" And she's like, \"Yes. Yes, you are.\" [laughs] And I was like, oh. [laughter] I really was expecting to get some reassurance that it wasn't me. But hey, what are you going to do? \n\nWILL: There you go. \n\nBRITTANY: I love the fact that you do love my roller derby name. As you can imagine, it is a beacon for finding the other programmers out on the track because they find it very funny. Nobody else finds it funny whatsoever. And people call me Merge for short, and some people think it's Marge. And I just allow it at this point. [laughter] My number is 200, and its status code okay. When you hit me, I get up okay until, apparently, I break my ankle. So...[laughter]\n\nWILL: I love it. Because if you're a programmer, you're like, oh, she means business. \n\nBRITTANY: Exactly.\n\nWILL: Because merge conflicts...yeah, never fun.\n\nBRITTANY: Exactly.\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. I love finding other people who work in tech in other random activities. Like, I've recruited people from the climbing gym. [laughs] I'm like, oh, we're climbing together, and, oh, you're an engineer. That's interesting. [laughs] So it's great to, like, be with your community in different settings, so...\n\nAnd you're just so involved in the Ruby on Rails Community. And I'm curious what really got you started into podcasting. \n\nBRITTANY: Yeah, that's a really good question. So I'm a former product manager former MBA. So I didn't know how to code. I moved out to San Francisco because I thought that's what everyone did. If you wanted to be in tech, you moved out to San Francisco, and so I did that. \n\nAnd I realized very quickly that it was going to be hard for me to be a product manager without knowing how to code. And so I went to a bootcamp at night, and I became a Ruby on Rails developer. So I wish I had, like, just a really cool story for why I chose Rails. It's literally the framework that was being taught by the bootcamp. \n\nWILL: [laughs]\n\nBRITTANY: But I'm so glad that it was because I love this community so much. But, you know, when I moved out to San Francisco, I just had my current partner at the time and my dog. I didn't have any friends. And so it was really the perfect time to learn how to code just because I was really able to focus. And I ended up having a lot of long walks at night, like, getting to the train, getting to the bus, and that's really when I got into listening to podcasts. I'm not a huge music person, which is kind of weird. I really...I deeply love podcasts. \n\nAnd so I just kind of glommed on to a bunch of podcasts like Giant Robots, CodeNewbie, Bike Shed. I figured if I listened to all the things that I wanted to be, like, osmosis would just happen, and I would just start learning the things because I was actively learning about how to code. And I thought just listening to those concepts would really help. And really what ended up happening is those people that I was listening to, like, to me, they became celebrities to me. Like, I don't care about regular celebrities. [laughter] I care about people within these communities that I care so much about. \n\nAnd so, you know, a couple of years into that, I was still very much devoted to listening to podcasts. I trained for my first marathon listening to podcasts. And I was listening to The Ruby on Rails Podcast, and, at the time, Kyle Daigle had taken over the show. And he had decided, in order to spice things up on the show, he was going to bring co-hosts on that he was going to rotate through. So, every couple of weeks, you would come on as a co-host, and you would drive the conversation with things that were going on in your life. \n\nAnd, at the time, you know, there wasn't a lot of women, female representation in podcasts. I felt that I was doing interesting things. I was working at a non-profit doing ticketing for the Broadway Symphony and opera, like, in Rails. So I felt like I was always working in Rails, and I thought I could provide some useful insight. So I reached out to Kyle. I must have been very ambitious that day because I reached out and I said, \"Hey, how about bringing me on as a co-host?\" And he said, \"Yeah, absolutely. Like, that would be great.\" \n\nAnd so I came on as one of the regular co-hosts on The Ruby on Rails Podcast, which I should have been flying high, right? Like, this is exactly what I wanted. I got to become like one of my own celebrities, right? Well, Kyle got really busy. At the time, I believe it's when Microsoft was acquiring GitHub. And Kyle still works at GitHub today. Kyle is amazing. He's their COO now. \n\nBut the podcast kind of went dormant for a couple of months. It was my big opportunity. I really loved, you know, being on a podcast. I had done a couple of episodes. So I reached out to Kyle and said, \"Hey, is there any chance you would give me the podcast?\" And he said, \"Absolutely.\" And he signed over everything to me, [laughter] which was really scary because I was taking over a podcast that had been around, at that time, it had been around for at least ten years, hundreds of episodes deep. It was on its own network. It was on the 5by5 Network at the time. So it had sponsors and expectations. \n\nAnd so, really, I had to learn everything from the get-go. Like, I made up my own episode plans. I made up my own questions, like, how to do ad reads, how to edit, how to upload to the hosting platform like; that was entirely on me. And, you know, we can talk more about how the podcast has evolved over those years. But yeah, long story now made short, that is how I got my start in podcasting.\n\nWILL: That's actually really amazing that that's how it got started and everything. Let's go back to when you first started. What was your feelings like? You say it was a lot to take on. Can you dig deeper in that and tell us more about that? Because I think I felt the same way. I think we've been doing this for about a year now. It's scary, let's be honest. It's scary jumping on a podcast and sharing who you are and what you're doing. So, can you tell us more about that?\n\nBRITTANY: Absolutely. I think one thing is just knowing what is your brand and, you know, what listeners should expect from listening to you because this is a podcast that had been around for ten years. You know, it had changed formats several times. It was an interview-style podcast at one point. At one point, it was a bunch of co-hosts that would just meet every week to talk out what was going on. And so I really needed to take a moment and kind of look over the metrics of the episodes. \n\nLike, I have that marketing background. I have that product background. So I wanted to know, like, what's actually working? Like, what do listeners want to listen to? And I also, like, kind of pored through all the reviews of the podcast. I'm like, did people even notice that this podcast went offline? Like, what's the current ecosystem? How many podcasts are out there in the Ruby and Rails space? \n\nAnd so what I started doing is I wanted to create, like, a safe environment in order to start the podcast over again. So what I did is I did interview-style podcasts with my friends, people that would tolerate me, you know, making mistakes, knowing that I was probably...I am a terrible editor. And so bringing those people on to have just genuine conversations with. And then really just tried to pick up the listenership of the podcast because I'm basically waving my arms saying, \"Hey, folks. Like, The Ruby on Rails Podcast is back. I'm here as your host. And, like, we are here to stay. Like, I want this to be a mainstay in the community.\"\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. So you started to apply those concepts from your product background. And I'm curious what you found in how the business of the podcast really works.\n\nBRITTANY: Yeah, I learned a lot, and we can talk about the transition. So, when I came on to the 5by5 Ruby on Rails Podcast, at the time, this was back in 2018. The podcast was being managed by 5by5, which is, like, a long-standing podcast network. They're still around, but they're much smaller than they used to be. \n\nSo, like, all of the sponsorship and the episode management was being handled by them. And so I didn't have a lot of insight into that part of the podcast. What I did have insight into is, like, what content is performing well? And what is the audience reaction to what we're putting out there? Like, how is the listenership coming back and whatnot? \n\nNow, one thing that did happen over the course of me managing The Ruby on Rails Podcast is we decided to take the podcast independent at one point, you know, 5by5 was starting to wind down. And so, back in 2021, I reached out to 5by5 and said, \"Hey, I genuinely really love this podcast. I want to be able to take it to a different platform, you know, have it go independent. But it's really important to me that I'm able to hold on to the current subscribers that I have.\" \n\nI think we all know that, like, if you rebrand something and it's a totally different RSS feed, it's really hard to get people to move over, especially if they're using something that makes podcast listening really easy like Apple Podcasts, you know, you subscribe. You get new episodes, and you just hit play. And so they were extremely willing to work with me. \n\nAnd so, we ended up taking the podcast independent. 5by5 created the hosting platform Fireside. And so we moved the podcast over to Fireside, and that was, like, a very seamless transition. But it was a moment in time where, you know, I was kind of questioning. We're no longer 5by5. It was the 5by5 Ruby on Rails Podcast. What do we call it? And so I genuinely had that moment where I was like, I could be really clever with the name. But then I stepped back, and I was like, no, everyone already refers to it as The Ruby on Rails Podcast. I'm just going to go with it. And so I think that ended up being a good decision. \n\nWe did change the logo of the show. We kept the same feed. And we had, like, the first episode on the new...we're not even on a network now; we're independent. The first episode of, like, the V2 of The Ruby on Rails Podcast is really what we called it. We just kind of explained the whole move. And I'm just deeply grateful all of our listeners just kind of followed along. \n\nAnd I will say the biggest boon to us moving is that we did get a professional editor. And so, like, the quality of the episodes went up, which is the best money that you can spend. Get yourself a professional editor. I cannot stress that enough. Or you get really good at it yourself. But I know my own skills, and it was never going to be that way. \n\nAnd so we took it independent. And I also decided to do a format change as well because it was a lot to do years of a podcast by myself. It was a lot. So I'm really glad Victoria and Will that you have each other. I think it's really great to have co-hosts. So I ended up moving the podcast. I now have a producing partner, and that's Mirror Placement. They do recruiting for Ruby on Rails, and they are wonderful partners. \n\nBut I also have three co-hosts that rotate through. I have Brian Mariani, who's a recruiter and founder of Mirror Placement. I have Jemma Issroff, who works on Ruby at Shopify. And I have Nick Schwaderer, who works on Rails infrastructure at Shopify. And that's been great because I rotate through those co-hosts. And I always have fresh content from them. But I also do the interview-style episodes as well, which Victoria was on recently.\n\nVICTORIA: Yes. I agree 100%. Having a co-host like Will makes it so much more fun. And I cannot appreciate our editor Mandy Moore enough. And I agree on that advice. And I actually would add when people ask me if they should start a podcast, recommend having at least one other person [laughs] who you want to talk with about that topic for every week. But I wonder, if someone's thinking about starting a podcast, what would you have them consider as to whether or not it's worth it for them?\n\nBRITTANY: I recently joined the podcasting subreddit on Reddit just because I was interested to see what kind of questions there were out there. Because when I got into podcasting, I was, like, oh, you just need to have a microphone and a way to record, and you just put it out there, and people are going to listen. It feels very much...like, you remember when, you know, the iPhone came out, and the App Store was empty? And then any app that you made was, like, amazing. Everybody would download it because there was nothing to download. We're now getting to a point with podcasts; there's just a lot out there. \n\nMy first bit of advice is, something that I said earlier, is make sure that you have an identity around your podcasts. Like, make sure that you are targeting a niche. It's fine if there are other people doing it, but do something that is uniquely you and do something that brings you joy. I really love talking to people in the Ruby on Rails Community. I have a special affinity for people who have never been on a podcast before. It's a lot of work. \n\nSo it's definitely worth it. I've gotten to meet a lot of my programming heroes because of it. And there are times where I've been very tempted to take a break and be able to step away from it. But, as of right now, it has been a good experience. \n\nAnd what I often say whenever I open up my conference talks is the Ruby on Rails Community is my community contribution because I'm not someone who regularly contributes to open source. And so this is kind of, like, how I give back, and I get to meet a lot of amazing people.\n\nMid-Roll Ad:\n\nVICTORIA: Introducing thoughtbot's ongoing maintenance service. Need reliable support and maintenance for your software? Look no further. Our expert team handles upgrades, bug fixes, UI adjustments, and new feature development. And the best part? Our maintenance packages start at just 5k per month for companies of all sizes.\n\nFrom Ruby on Rails to Node, React, and, yes, even PHP, we've got you covered. Trust thoughtbot for top-notch support and optimized performance.\n\nTo receive a custom quote, contact sales@thoughtbot.com. \n\nVICTORIA: And with me here, I have Richard Newman, who's the Development Director on our Boost Team, to talk to me a little bit more about what maintenance actually looks like once you've built your software application, right?\n\nRICHARD: Hi, Victoria. \n\nVICTORIA: Hi, Richard. You have experience building applications. I wonder if you could describe to a founder who's considering to build an application, like, what should they consider for their long-term maintenance?\n\nRICHARD: Well, like you said earlier, part of what you're going for with that long-term maintenance is making sure the health of your project, of your application, is always there. And you don't want to be surprised as you're continuing to work with your users and so forth. \n\nAnd so a number of things that we pay attention to in maintenance are we're paying attention to keeping the application secure, providing security updates. We want to make sure that the ecosystem, basically, all of the tools and third-party services that are tied to your application, we're responding to those sorts of changes as we go along. \n\nAnd then part of it is, occasionally, you're going to find some smaller issues or bugs or so forth as your user group continues to grow or as needs continue to change. You want to be able to respond to those quickly as well. And so a lot of what goes into maintenance is making sure that you're paying attention and you're ahead of those things before they surprise you.\n\nVICTORIA: Because what can happen? Like, what are the consequences if you don't do that ongoing maintenance?\n\nRICHARD: Well, the security updates those happen across gems and in the platform sort of tools that are there. And so, if you're not keeping those up to date, your exposure, your vulnerability to being hacked, or having a bad actor come into your application start growing on you if you're not doing the maintenance.\n\nThe other ones that can come up is there's new interfaces that these third-party services...they may be updating their APIs. They may be updating how you're supposed to work with their tool. And so those can occasionally break if you're not paying attention to what's going on or you're suddenly surprised by an upgrade that you have to make. \n\nAnd then, finally, there's this long-term sort of code change that just builds up over time if you're not keeping it refactored for the changes that are upcoming in a language or the gems that you work with. And then, suddenly, after a while, it suddenly gets to the point where you have a lot of work that you might have to do to rehabilitate the application to take on some of the newer features that are being released. And so that makes it that much more difficult, that much more friction about being able to deliver updates for your users or to be able to respond to changes that are happening out there in your application.\n\nVICTORIA: Right. So, if you don't have that ongoing maintenance, you could run into a situation where suddenly, you need to make a very large investment and fixing whatever is broken.\n\nRICHARD: Absolutely. It's going to be very tough to plan for if you weren't keeping up all the way along and, yes, absolutely ends up being much slower if you have to remediate it.\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. I wonder if you have any examples of a project you've walked into and said, \"Wow, I wish we had been doing a little bit more maintenance.\" [laughs] And maybe you can share some details.\n\nRICHARD: Yeah. We had a fairly large application that involved a number of clinic services. So we had an application that users were going in every day and counting on our fast response. And, over time, we've got surprised by a database upgrade that had to happen. Basically, the database was going to be changed by our third-party hosting service, and that hadn't been tested. There hadn't been procedures in place when we discovered this need. And there was a very hard date that that change had to be done or else the entire application was going to go down. \n\nAnd it came at a very inconvenient time, at the end of the year around Christmas, that we had to respond to all of that. And had we been in front of it and just updated it every quarter and staying current with it, it wouldn't have been nearly the lift that it turned out to be. We were facing a pretty hard deadline [laughs] there to keep things going. It was very, very stressful and disruptive for the team and potentially for the clinics.\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And it always happens around a big holiday or something like that, right? When it all comes to a head.\n\n[laughter]\n\nRICHARD: Absolutely. You want to be in control of the timeframe and not have the timeframe be in control of you.\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And if you have a team like thoughtbot supporting you, you can go on your vacation with a little bit more knowledge that if something breaks, there's someone there who can respond and fix things, and you don't have to interrupt your very valuable time off. So...\n\nRICHARD: [chuckles] Absolutely.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Richard, for joining me today. I appreciate you coming here to talk with us. And we'll talk to you again soon.\n\nRICHARD: Yeah, it was a pleasure. Thank you.\n\nWILL: I have a question around your listeners. I just want to take a second and just thank everyone who listens to the podcast. We really appreciate you so much, so just thank you, thank you, thank you. Because if you don't have listeners, you don't have a podcast, like you said a second ago. And you went through so many changes. What's been your biggest win, and how do you continue winning with your listeners? And how do you engage with them?\n\nBRITTANY: This is a fun answer because, actually, thoughtbot comes into play there. They did not pay me to say this. But one thing that The Bike Shed used to do is they used to go to RailsConf and RubyConf, and they would record episodes during the conference with various Ruby heroes in the community. This is going back to me seeing these people as celebrities. I just thought that was, like, the coolest thing. And, at the time, I couldn't afford to go to conferences like that. So being able to listen to those podcasts and get to hear that kind of content was really important to me. \n\nAnd so, you know, eventually, that stopped being a thing at RubyConf and RailsConf. And two years ago, I reached out and said, \"Hey, I really love those kinds of sessions. Is there any way that I could take the lead on bringing those sessions back?\" And we did. So it took in the form of a podcast panel at these different conferences where we would bring in different podcasts in the community. And we would have a panel. We would answer listener questions. It was genuinely a lot of fun. \n\nSo that is a proud moment for me. But it's a proud moment for me because it gave me the opportunity to reach out to podcasts in the community and say, \"Hey, we're not competing here. We're friends. I want to record content with you. Like, please be part of my podcast community.\" And we have never been tighter. \n\nSo, like, we guest on each other's podcasts. We promote each other's podcasts on like Mastodon and Twitter. And it is just the most lovely thing ever because now we say things like, oh, yeah, like, this podcast, like, that's our, like, sister podcast, or that's our brother podcast. Like, it's so cool that we, you know, rising tide raises all ships. That's exactly what's happening here in the Ruby podcast community.\n\nVICTORIA: I like that familial sense within the different Ruby on Rails podcasts, and maybe even Giant Robots is a part of that. Like, are we a cousin or an uncle? [laughter] Who knows? But I was actually there when you recorded the episode live at RailsConf in Atlanta this year. Was that your favorite moment at RailsConf, or was it something else? \n\nBRITTANY: Yeah, I would say that was my favorite moment at RailsConf. No matter how many times I meet Aaron Patterson, I am always, like, deeply intimidated by just how funny and intelligent he is. So having that excuse of reaching out to him and saying like, \"Hey, will you please be on this podcast panel?\" was so fun. \n\nI deeply adore Irina Nazarova, and so having her on the panel as well was fun. And then just doing the wildcard of having the audience, like, vote in who was going to be the third panel was truly a risky move, Victoria. [laughs] But it ended up paying off, and it ended up generating some really fun content for us.\n\nVICTORIA: That's awesome. And I'm curious, you know, to talk a little bit more about the Ruby on Rails Community. And what do you see is the biggest challenge that it's facing right now?\n\nBRITTANY: Oh, I have so many opinions on this. What a great question. [laughs] So I recently put together a talk proposal. It's currently waitlisted at a conference, but it is a talk that I very much want to give. \n\nBut one project that I would really like to work on is...between, I would say, 2013 and 2015, Ruby on Rails was definitely the number one framework that was being taught in bootcamps. And I'm really curious about what happened to all those people. I'm one of them. I learned Ruby on Rails in 2014. I still believe that I'm in the Ruby on Rails Community, not only for the podcast, but I'm an engineering manager for a company that writes Rails. So I believe I'm very much in the community. I'm so curious. Those people had so much potential of being seniors, principals, staff engineers, founders, engineering managers, architects. What happened to them? And did they stay in our community? \n\nAnd then my second part of that is, what does it mean to be in the Ruby on Rails Community? Like, can you just listen to podcasts and be in the community? Do you need to actively write Ruby? I just find that whole thing very interesting. We're very obsessed with bringing new programmers into the Rails community, which I think is important. But what about the people who we taught Rails and left us? Like, is there an opportunity to bring them back?\n\nWILL: It's funny you say that because I wasn't in that year range. I was a little later, like, 2017. And I learned Ruby on Rails, and then I went to JavaScript, you know, React, React Native, but I'm slowly inching back towards Ruby on Rails. My current project, I'm actually able to do some Ruby on Rails. And I'm really excited about it because, like you, that was my first language style that I learned, and I still love it. It is weird, but you always love your first language; I do, at least. So it's interesting that you said that because, yeah, I can say, for me, I'm slowly coming back towards it.\n\nBRITTANY: Well, welcome back, Will. We're excited to have you.\n\nI know that Node was such a heavy hitter when it came out, and it made a lot of sense. Like, we're going to teach you JavaScript on the front end. Oh, hey, we're going to also teach you JavaScript on the back end. You know, from the business side, I'm so curious whether or not Rails is still, like, one of the top three solutions in order to get an MVP off the ground. I don't have my thumb on that, so I'm very curious whether or not that's true or not.\n\nVICTORIA: We certainly still tend to default to it at thoughtbot and to get MVPs off the ground. And we're still building a bunch of products every year with it. [laughs] So, Ruby on Rails and React together, especially if you're trying to iterate very quickly and test your assumptions about what you're building, I think that it's still a really fast and high-performing framework to use. \n\nAnd it's interesting because there's a coding school in San Diego, Codecademy, which is really heavily involved, [chuckles] of course, in the Ruby on Rails Community, and they still teach it in their bootcamp. And one of the reasons they said to me was because it's one of the frameworks that gives you that holistic view of how everything works. [laughs] \n\nLike, if you're new to tech, new to programming, in general, it's a very easy entry point to understanding. And I think that, of itself, when you're talking, like, the long-term viability of a framework, being able to hire people who can step in and understand what's going on in your codebase, that framework gives you a higher chance of that. [laughs] You know, that might point to your long-term success, too.\n\nBRITTANY: Now, that's a really good point. Going back to the podcast as well, I think one thing that is not very well solved is just being able to make it sustainable as well because there are only so many sponsors out there. And it's really hard to prove ROI from sponsoring a podcast, right? Like, you can put links in the show notes. And you can hope people click on them and they convert. And you can be able to say, \"Hey, this podcast is the reason.\" \n\nBut I've seen a lot of people start podcasts, and they think, well, if I put a bunch of episodes out and some people listen, then sponsors are going to knock down my door. I'm very lucky that I've had some long-term sponsors that have been able to keep the show sustainable. And I love seeing podcasts that come out of companies, you know, like thoughtbot, where you are being sustained by the company that, you know, is producing it. It's really hard to justify a podcast as a business unless you are already a major celebrity already, right?\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, we certainly don't do it for the money it makes us directly off the podcast. We do not.\n\n[laughter]\n\nBRITTANY: We do not.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I agree with that. And yeah, and even it's interesting as an advertising vehicle or marketing for your company. It can be great because, like, I feel with Giant Robots, we have so many listeners, like, loyal listeners over the years that we have this, like, direct way of communicating with a community that we care about. [laughs] But if you don't have...trying to, like, create that market and create that group of people from the ground up can be really tough. [laughs] And it takes a lot of time, a lot of investment, and a lot of effort, especially if you can't afford a professional editor. [laughs]\n\nBRITTANY: Agreed. There's just some cost that I believe, like, the longer I do this, that are just, like, non-negotiable. There are some things that you can definitely have as optional. You know, for me, like, you have to have a good microphone. You have to have a professional editor. I pay for, like, my calendar scheduling software because I want to make that really, like, slick for my guests. Like, I used to...oh, I used to do the emails back and forth of, like, I'm available at Thursday at 2:00 or Friday at 3:00. Like, would one of these work for you? No. [laughs] It's just...that's a rotten experience.\n\nFor us, we do send, like, a thank you gift after being on the show, which has been, like, a nice add with having a producing partner that will back me on that. And I try to get to as many conferences as possible because I think it's a great vehicle to promote the podcast, but those end up all being optional. And all those things they do cost money.\n\nVICTORIA: They do. And it's funny, like, yeah, getting out to the conferences, it's still the number one way to grow things is by meeting people in person [laughs], like, being real and human. \n\nBRITTANY: Shocking, right? [laughs]\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And I'm just kind of curious, like, in terms of how you picture what success means for your podcast. Like, what does that look like in the next six months or even, like, five years of hosting this podcast for you? \n\nBRITTANY: Ooh, this is, like, the existential crisis question because I've been doing it for nearly five years. And I think the question is always going to be, you know, like, how long do I want to keep hosting the podcast? I will say the podcast is a positive influence on me in terms of making sure that I stay connected to people, that I keep writing code on the side so that way, I know what I'm talking about. \n\nI have this whole imposter thing of, like, what if someone finds out I'm not a Ruby on Rails developer day to day and that I'm, like, actually thinking about business problems; I was, like, an engineering manager? You know, I'm going to get found out, and people are going to unsubscribe. \n\nBut in all seriousness, I think the success for this podcast is that it can go on without me. It's been around for that long already. And eventually, like, I want to have a succession plan where someones, I will say, like, multiple co-hosts to be able to take it over from there. It'll be rough to watch because, like, I really enjoy, you know, my current era because I feel like the podcast has gone through different eras. I really do enjoy it. But, at some point, it's just not going to make sense in terms of my professional goals. Do you feel the same?\n\nVICTORIA: Yes. But we're only a year in. So I feel like I'm still...[laughter] I feel like I'm still new to hosting. And I'm like, oh, I've already recorded, like, 30 episodes or something. [laughs] \n\nThere's been a lot of change. And we're always thinking about, like, how do we make it better? What do we do? And trying to figure out how do we really get the most out of it for ourselves. But I feel the same way that it's just one of the more fun things that I do at thoughtbot [laughs]. And it gives me that chance to reach out to people and start conversations that I otherwise would not have had. So I really appreciate it. I don't know what you think, Will.\n\nWILL: No, I totally agree with you. I love meeting new people. And I love meeting the diverse group of people that we have on the podcast. I love that just, like, how did you get here? Like, what makes you keep at it? Like, you've been at it for five years. What makes you keep at it? Just those questions like that I really love.\n\nFor me personally, I think that I'm still in the growing phase of podcast hosting. Like, I can get better at this. I can get better at that. What else can I get better at? So I think that's where I'm at in this phase. But, like Victoria said, that's only a year in. It's a different story when you're five years in.\n\nBRITTANY: [laughs] It is. And one thing that I will do to make it more sustainable is, you know, like when you're running, you can either be sprinting, or you can be doing, like, a long endurance race. So with the podcast, I will book a bunch of podcasts in one week and say, this is my week to be recording. Like, I'm going to be very heads down on the podcast. I have other things going on in my life, but I'm like, this is a podcast week for me. And so I will record a bunch of episodes. \n\nAnd that essentially gives me a couple of weeks where I can essentially take a break from the podcast. But guess what, listeners? Like, you're still getting new episodes. So you have no idea that I'm secretly taking a break. And I think that has also been a huge help. \n\nOdd fact is that the five years that I've been hosting The Ruby on Rails Podcast, I am only missing from one episode. And the reason for that is that when I broke my ankle, [laughs] I called my co-host and was like, \"Hey, I'm going into surgery tomorrow. We have this great episode being recorded tomorrow. I need you to take it.\" [laughs] And so that is the one episode that I am missing from, but I think it was a good lesson for me to know that I can step away and good content can still happen.\n\nWILL: That's amazing. That's a pretty good record. [laughs]\n\nBRITTANY: Or it might be obsessive, Will. I don't know.\n\n[laughter]\n\nWILL: Let me ask you this, what does success look like for you personally - roller derby, your full-time job? What does success look like for you in those areas in six months or a couple of years?\n\nBRITTANY: Oh, that's a really great question. So I had stepped away from roller derby during the pandemic. And so I absolutely love fitness. I do CrossFit. I have a peloton. I have my own little home gym that I built during the pandemic that I absolutely adore. \n\nSo, you know, success for me is continuing to invest in that self-care. I want to keep skating just because I'm that person. Everyone came to me, and they're like, \"Oh, you broke your ankle. I bet you won't go back to a roller derby.\" And I was like, oh, you think I won't? You think I won't go back? [laughs] So I'm headed back, but I'm going to be very careful about it. Because I've seen that, you know, your body can break, and you need to give yourself some rest. \n\nBut to answer, overall, like, I am an engineering manager now, and, you know, my goal is to eventually to get to that director level. And, in some ways, like, I can justify the podcast just because I do get the excuse to talk to people that have the job that I eventually want to have in my career. And so it helps in that regard as well.\n\nVICTORIA: I think that's great, and I agree. That's also why I started getting involved in my community a lot, maybe 5 or 10 years ago. I was just like, here's opportunities to show my leadership and see how connected I am with other leaders. [laughs] It helps in that way. And on blading, I actually bought rollerblades recently just to go around the neighborhood. \n\nBRITTANY: Yeesssss!\n\nVICTORIA: And I got heckled by a woman [laughs] who said...I think she was being sincere, but she was like, \"Bend your knees, and it's going to be okay.\" [laughter] Like, \"Wear wrist guards next time.\" [laughter] I was like, maybe just my face was very try-hard in that moment. Because I have a lot of respect for people who can roller derby and get around on skates that fast. [laughs]\n\nBRITTANY: Well, you know what's really funny? (I haven't even talked about this on my own podcast.) is that you know, I'm involved in the Roller Derby League. Obviously, I can't skate right now. And so I needed to find a committee so that I was able to still, you know, provide value to the league. And so, for some reason, I decided that skater resources would be a good idea.\n\nSo I'm essentially one of the people who is, you know, human resources within the Roller Derby League. And so when there are disputes or questions, or people have hurt feelings, like, they're coming to me, which is, you know, really funny because I do some of that as an engineering manager. So, like, to your point, Victoria, like, you know, I can do growth because they're way more extreme through roller derby, as you can imagine. And, in some ways, it ends up being good practice.\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, that does sound like practice for higher-level management decisions, [laughs] so get ready. You're going to have issues and problems, and you're the one to solve it. So...\n\nBRITTANY: Yeah. It's not like their problems don't matter. But, in some ways, it's almost like playing with monopoly money because, like, you know, you're not dealing with somebody's, like, livelihood. You're dealing with a sport that they do for fun. Like, trust me, no one is being paid to play roller derby. [laughs] It's a very expensive sport. There's a lot of equipment involved. And, Victoria, yes, you want to wear wristguards. \n\n[laughter] \n\nVICTORIA: Yes. I learned my lesson.\n\nBRITTANY: You write code. You want to wear wrist guards.\n\n[laughter]\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And yeah, it's funny about things like that. Like, it's still very meaningful to people. Like, when I used to coach kids' climbing competitions, it's, like, the same thing. Like, it's rock climbing, everybody, but some people take it very seriously. [laughs] There's a lot of feelings involved. But, at the end of the day, it's nice to have that practice outside of the pressure of it being someone's livelihood and all of those details.\n\nBRITTANY: Agreed.\n\nVICTORIA: Well, let me ask you this question. It's one of our favorite ones. But if you could go back in time and give advice to your younger self, what would you say? And maybe it's at the beginning of the podcast or some other inflection point in your career.\n\nBRITTANY: That is...oh, what a gift because hindsight is 20/20, isn't it? When I was going through school, I ended up getting a marketing degree because I really enjoyed business. I really liked, you know, the mechanics behind marketing. But, at the time, I had taken a couple of computer classes, and this was back in 2006. And, you know, I thought about double majoring in computer science and marketing. And someone gave me the terrible advice that computer programming was going to go away [laughs], and so it would be a waste of time to get that double degree in computer science. And so, you know, I'm very much a second career developer. \n\nLike I noted earlier, you know, I was a PM. I was a non-technical product manager before I learned how to code, and so I learned how to code in my 30s. So I wish I could go back and get into programming way earlier. It would have changed the entire trajectory of my life. But part of me always wants to live out, like, that Black Mirror, like, what it would have been like if I had learned to code so much earlier. Would I have found Ruby? Maybe not.\n\nWILL: I totally agree with that because the same story. I remember growing up, and I had a cousin that lived next door. He used to program, and I was just, like, he was a celebrity because I was like, whoa, look what he's doing, and how can you do that? And then I went off to college. \n\nWell, I grew up in a small town, so we didn't really have many computer programs. I went to a college, and they said, \"Hey, we have this one computer course you can either take it or test out.\" I was like; I'm not taking it; test out. I want to save that money. And I didn't realize how much I'll love computers and programming until later in life, late 20s, early 30s. And I wish I could have started early, so I totally agree with you about that.\n\nVICTORIA: Like, I wish I would have time now to learn how to code. [laughs] Like, I still need to learn it. No, I think that...oh, would I advise? I don't know. You know what's funny? A recent guest said that if that had happened, they still wouldn't have believed themselves [laughs], right? Like, would you really believe someone telling you what to do? Like, you know, you try to make the best decision that you can at the time.\n\nBRITTANY: I think it's fun to look back and see all the little things that happened that got you to where you are. So, like, two of, like, crucial things that happened for me. I was in school to become a genetic counselor, and I hated it. And so I had gotten an internship, and, like, that internship changed everything because it was like a day in the life as a genetic counselor, and I really did not like it at all. And so, I ended up dropping all my classes and moving into the business school. And so that was one thing that happened. \n\nAnd then the second thing is, you know, I was working at a cowboy restaurant. [laughs] It was ridiculous. And I was getting ready to graduate school and just absolutely terrified about not having a job. I ended up getting this table of this company that was, like, having a business meeting, and we ended up chatting, and they were so wonderful. And they left me their business card, and, like, that ended up being my first job. \n\nIt's just the little micro-decisions that you make that, like, change your entire trajectory, which is really so cool. So you end up not really regretting anything, but you always just kind of look back and reflect, and you're like, what if I had given that table away? Or what if I hadn't been ambitious and, like, tried to get that internship? So just everything's an opportunity, right?\n\nWILL: Yeah, I totally, totally agree with that. So you do roller derby, CrossFit, marathons, coding, your podcast. So you do a lot of self-care, which I don't think, especially in the tech world, we do enough self-care. I know I don't. I am horrible at it, trying to get better. What's your wind in your sails for that? Like, how do you keep going? Like, how do you stay disciplined with that?\n\nBRITTANY: I think, for me, I feel better when I move my body. I make better decisions. I am more patient. I need to work out earlier in the day. Like, I am a morning person, and so it makes me feel good. And so then I go into work in a good mood. And I deal with people day to day, right? Like, I manage ten developers. And so it's also something that I can use to connect with my team as well. A lot of them also like to do physical things, and so that works out nicely. \n\nIn terms of nutrition, I definitely could be better. But I will say my partner and I take turns meal prepping our lunches. We both work from home. And so being able to, like, in between meetings run over and grab a box of actually good food to be able to eat lunch. We do, like, a meal service at night as well. \n\nI don't know, like, you need to look out for you. Because while the belief is that other people are also looking out, nobody's going to look out for you like you are. And so you have to prioritize self-care and just making sure that you're getting those moments. And I agree with you, Will; sometimes, I'm absolutely terrible at setting up those processes so that way you don't fall through.\n\nVICTORIA: I think there's a book that makes me think of it called, like, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck. [laughs]\n\nBRITTANY: Yes.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah.\n\nBRITTANY: Yes. \n\nVICTORIA: Yep. And I think that's part of it, too. Like, there's a lot of pressure to be so high-performing and to do all the things for your family, and for your work and your personal life. But, at the end of the day, it's also okay to just sit around and do nothing [laughs] and, like, relax. \n\nBRITTANY: Yeah, I've watched a lot of Drag Race, a lot. [laughs]\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, awesome. Yes. What's your favorite season?\n\nBRITTANY: Oh, season six, I would say. Season six is just so good. Are you watching All-Stars?\n\nVICTORIA: I'm not right now. I'm actually...I usually binge-watch it at random times. So I'm not really caught up. But I have met a few of them at drag shows. I think I've met Milk. Is that [inaudible 44:27]\n\nBRITTANY: Oh, wow. What a queen to have met.\n\nVICTORIA: I know.\n\nBRITTANY: That's amazing. [laughs]\n\nVICTORIA: That was actually a very funny story. I'll tell you another time. [laughs] But yes.\n\nBRITTANY: But honestly, like, Drag Race actually relates to engineering management for me because, you know, at my last job, I had two developers that I was struggling to connect with. And I realized that after stand-up, they were staying behind to talk about Drag Race, and I wanted to connect with them. And I was like, oh, I'll check out a couple of episodes and became so deeply addicted [laughs] that, like, I surpassed them in how much I loved it. \n\nSo, like, it is a fun, like, I've always thought about giving a conference talk where, like, each report that I have, like, one crazy thing that they do...well, not crazy but, like, one, you know, passion that they have and, like, trying it just to have something to relate to. Though I will say, I did manage somebody who really liked to jump out of planes, and that is just not in the cards for me. \n\nVICTORIA: I love that too. I like when someone is really passionate about something. I'm like, okay, I'll give it a chance, at least once, you know. But I have some friends right now who are into freediving, and I'm not convinced [laughs] that I want to go try to hold my breath underwater. \n\nBRITTANY: What in the world is freediving? \n\nVICTORIA: It's diving underwater without oxygen.\n\nBRITTANY: No.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Yeah.\n\nBRITTANY: That's a big nope for me. \n\nVICTORIA: And, like, hunting fish. So, like, they catch tuna and stuff. They're down there pew-pew and making sushi when they get back.\n\nBRITTANY: Well, that actually sounds wonderful. But --\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I'm like, I will eat this. I will eat [laughs] whatever you catch. \n\nBRITTANY: Yes, that's fair.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Like, I'm into the results but not...I might try some of the, like... a lot of it is, like, training your breath and being able to hold your breath and to stay calm because that's really the biggest problem. [laughs] I do rock climbing. I think that's enough. Like, that's -- \n\nWILL: [laughs]\n\nBRITTANY: That's pretty badass. \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. [laughs]\n\nWILL: Yes.\n\nBRITTANY: That is a very cool sport.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And, actually, you're mentioning how it was, like, you worked at a cowboy restaurant, and that was how you got your first connection to your job. And, like, I would go up to, like, my college climbing wall and be, like, I'm a rock climber; you should hire me. And [laughs] through that connection, I got my first referral to my first job in DC. And so, basically, my whole life revolves around it. [laughs] Nothing would happen without these little connections that you make.\n\nI'm curious, Will, if you had a pivot point like that you can tell us about.\n\nWILL: It was probably getting to tech because it was more of a hobby, and sometimes it's still a big hobby for me. So I will say either getting into tech or working out. So I try to work out with friends. So I used to play football. Everything was a group workout. So after football, it was very hard for me to work out because it was always a group workout. So after many, many years of finally realizing that, I try to work out in groups, with friends, and stuff like that. So that's probably the biggest thing for me is, like, working out in a group and having someone to hold me accountable.\n\nBRITTANY: I love that. That's one reason...so I used to be a fitness instructor. I should reveal that as well. I used to be a BODYPUMP instructor. And the reason for that is just, like, again, I thought people that were fitness instructors were just, like, celebrities and absolute badasses. And so, I used to only go to group fitness class as well because I needed that accountability. And so, yeah, there's definitely days I wake up where I absolutely do not want to do anything. But having that accountability, it's just really awesome, and really, it makes sure that you follow through.\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense how you've practiced your voice and why your podcasting voice is so strong [laughter] because you're a fitness instructor. That's what is starting to add up for me. [laughter]\n\nBRITTANY: You know what? The biggest challenge of being a fitness instructor is that they would send me the routines, and I would have to memorize them. And being able to memorize like, oh, I'm going to squat on the fourth count. And I'm going to do a clean and press on the eighth count. Oh my God, is that an algorithm -- \n\nWILL: Yes.\n\nBRITTANY: You know, for a pro...and I was like, is there any way that I could somehow automate? Like, part of me wanted to game it. I'm like, how do I game this so I don't have to spend so much time trying to memorize it? I mean, it was truly, truly challenging. And it was probably, like, the best brain teaser that I could have been doing because you're essentially putting on a live performance while working out. And everyone needs to be able to follow you and feel encouraged by you. It was just...it was a wild time.\n\nWILL: [laughs]\n\nVICTORIA: That sounds very demanding. Well, coming up to the end of our time here, is there anything else you would like to promote today? \n\nBRITTANY: Ooh, no. We're currently not hiring at my job. Normally, that is something that I would promote. I would say if you are interested in checking out my podcast, it is The Ruby on Rails Podcast. We have plenty of things on there that are not Rails-specific. We've had conversations about, like, what's it like to get stock options at a company? What does the recruiting landscape currently look like? And then we also have, like, deep topics about, like, what's currently being merged into Ruby Core? So, really, we have a wide variety of topics.\n\nSo, if you find my voice somewhat pleasant, come on over; we'd be happy to have you. And, of course, you can listen to Victoria's episode, that will be linked up in the show notes. But this was such a pleasure. It was great spending time with you both, Will and Victoria.\n\nWILL: Yeah, it was great. Loved chatting with you.\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, thank you so much for joining. This was super fun. \n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. \n\nWILL: If you have any questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you could find me on Twitter @will23larry. \n\nVICTORIA: And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. \n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. \n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.Special Guest: Brittany Martin.","content_html":"Introducing thoughtbot's ongoing maintenance service. Need reliable support and maintenance for your software? Look no further. Our expert team handles upgrades, bug fixes, UI adjustments, and new feature development. And the best part? Our maintenance packages start at just 5k per month for companies of all sizes.
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\n\nBrittany Martin is an Engineering Manager at Shogun, where she manages a team of Ruby and React engineers and is the Co-host of The Ruby on Rails Podcast.
\n\nVictoria and Will talk to Brittany about the multitude of stuff she's interested in, including Roller Derby, and gives the story of how she found herself co-hosting the show. She says knowing what your brand is and what listeners should expect from listening to you is super important, and she gives her opinion on what it means to be in the Ruby on Rails Community.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido.
\n\nWILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. And with us today is Brittany Martin, an Engineering Manager at Shogun, where she manages a team of Ruby and React engineers. She is the Co-host of The Ruby on Rails Podcast, almost five years running. And she plays roller derby for Steel City Roller Derby under the pseudonym, catch this, Merge Conflict. She is based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Brittany, thank you for joining us.
\n\nBRITTANY: I am so thrilled to be on here. I have been listening to Giant Robots for years. So it's an absolute honor to be on the show today.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, thank you so much for joining us. And I met you at RailsConf this year. And, at the time, you had a boot on your foot. So, I have to ask you, are you healed? Are you recovered? Are you walking around again?
\n\nBRITTANY: This is such a good question. When I was between jobs in March, I was, you know, having these two weeks, I had a whole list of things that I was going to be doing. You know, I was going to train, like, running and whatnot. And I had roller derby practice that first week, and I broke my ankle. And, you know, going into it, I had no idea what a blocker it was going to be. I was like, oh, this is minor. It'll just take a couple of weeks to heal. No, it's been a long process.
\n\nBut I can gleefully tell the listeners that I am out of the boot. I am walking. I am hopefully getting into a sports program next week that will train me up to get back into CrossFit, running, and skating. Though the really funny part is that I currently have another injury which is golfer's elbow. [laughs]
\n\nWILL: Oh, wow.
\n\nBRITTANY: Yeah. So I have that from overusing my arms. So I'm a little bit of a mess, but, you know, getting myself back together physically so I can get back on my skates.
\n\nWILL: So I know it's called golfer's elbow. But did you actually hurt it doing golf, or was it another sport you were playing?
\n\nBRITTANY: It's so funny that you ask that, Will, because whenever people ask me how I broke my ankle, I can be glamorous and be like, "Oh, it was roller derby."
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nBRITTANY: Like, it's a sexy injury, you know. I have a friend who just broke their ankle because they were dancing down the stairs and broke it, not as glamorous of a story, right?
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nBRITTANY: Golfer's elbow. I literally have no idea how this happened. I've never golfed a day in my life. So [laughter] it's my non-glamorous injury at this point.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, that's my background, sports medicine.
\n\nBRITTANY: Oh, great.
\n\nWILL: So it's interesting. Yeah, golfer's elbow, and I'm like, it's usually not golf that does it. So...[laughs]
\n\nBRITTANY: Yeah. So I said something to my PT. I was like, "Am I the first person to ever get golfer's elbow from, like, you know, fixing another injury?" And she's like, "Yes. Yes, you are." [laughs] And I was like, oh. [laughter] I really was expecting to get some reassurance that it wasn't me. But hey, what are you going to do?
\n\nWILL: There you go.
\n\nBRITTANY: I love the fact that you do love my roller derby name. As you can imagine, it is a beacon for finding the other programmers out on the track because they find it very funny. Nobody else finds it funny whatsoever. And people call me Merge for short, and some people think it's Marge. And I just allow it at this point. [laughter] My number is 200, and its status code okay. When you hit me, I get up okay until, apparently, I break my ankle. So...[laughter]
\n\nWILL: I love it. Because if you're a programmer, you're like, oh, she means business.
\n\nBRITTANY: Exactly.
\n\nWILL: Because merge conflicts...yeah, never fun.
\n\nBRITTANY: Exactly.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. I love finding other people who work in tech in other random activities. Like, I've recruited people from the climbing gym. [laughs] I'm like, oh, we're climbing together, and, oh, you're an engineer. That's interesting. [laughs] So it's great to, like, be with your community in different settings, so...
\n\nAnd you're just so involved in the Ruby on Rails Community. And I'm curious what really got you started into podcasting.
\n\nBRITTANY: Yeah, that's a really good question. So I'm a former product manager former MBA. So I didn't know how to code. I moved out to San Francisco because I thought that's what everyone did. If you wanted to be in tech, you moved out to San Francisco, and so I did that.
\n\nAnd I realized very quickly that it was going to be hard for me to be a product manager without knowing how to code. And so I went to a bootcamp at night, and I became a Ruby on Rails developer. So I wish I had, like, just a really cool story for why I chose Rails. It's literally the framework that was being taught by the bootcamp.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nBRITTANY: But I'm so glad that it was because I love this community so much. But, you know, when I moved out to San Francisco, I just had my current partner at the time and my dog. I didn't have any friends. And so it was really the perfect time to learn how to code just because I was really able to focus. And I ended up having a lot of long walks at night, like, getting to the train, getting to the bus, and that's really when I got into listening to podcasts. I'm not a huge music person, which is kind of weird. I really...I deeply love podcasts.
\n\nAnd so I just kind of glommed on to a bunch of podcasts like Giant Robots, CodeNewbie, Bike Shed. I figured if I listened to all the things that I wanted to be, like, osmosis would just happen, and I would just start learning the things because I was actively learning about how to code. And I thought just listening to those concepts would really help. And really what ended up happening is those people that I was listening to, like, to me, they became celebrities to me. Like, I don't care about regular celebrities. [laughter] I care about people within these communities that I care so much about.
\n\nAnd so, you know, a couple of years into that, I was still very much devoted to listening to podcasts. I trained for my first marathon listening to podcasts. And I was listening to The Ruby on Rails Podcast, and, at the time, Kyle Daigle had taken over the show. And he had decided, in order to spice things up on the show, he was going to bring co-hosts on that he was going to rotate through. So, every couple of weeks, you would come on as a co-host, and you would drive the conversation with things that were going on in your life.
\n\nAnd, at the time, you know, there wasn't a lot of women, female representation in podcasts. I felt that I was doing interesting things. I was working at a non-profit doing ticketing for the Broadway Symphony and opera, like, in Rails. So I felt like I was always working in Rails, and I thought I could provide some useful insight. So I reached out to Kyle. I must have been very ambitious that day because I reached out and I said, "Hey, how about bringing me on as a co-host?" And he said, "Yeah, absolutely. Like, that would be great."
\n\nAnd so I came on as one of the regular co-hosts on The Ruby on Rails Podcast, which I should have been flying high, right? Like, this is exactly what I wanted. I got to become like one of my own celebrities, right? Well, Kyle got really busy. At the time, I believe it's when Microsoft was acquiring GitHub. And Kyle still works at GitHub today. Kyle is amazing. He's their COO now.
\n\nBut the podcast kind of went dormant for a couple of months. It was my big opportunity. I really loved, you know, being on a podcast. I had done a couple of episodes. So I reached out to Kyle and said, "Hey, is there any chance you would give me the podcast?" And he said, "Absolutely." And he signed over everything to me, [laughter] which was really scary because I was taking over a podcast that had been around, at that time, it had been around for at least ten years, hundreds of episodes deep. It was on its own network. It was on the 5by5 Network at the time. So it had sponsors and expectations.
\n\nAnd so, really, I had to learn everything from the get-go. Like, I made up my own episode plans. I made up my own questions, like, how to do ad reads, how to edit, how to upload to the hosting platform like; that was entirely on me. And, you know, we can talk more about how the podcast has evolved over those years. But yeah, long story now made short, that is how I got my start in podcasting.
\n\nWILL: That's actually really amazing that that's how it got started and everything. Let's go back to when you first started. What was your feelings like? You say it was a lot to take on. Can you dig deeper in that and tell us more about that? Because I think I felt the same way. I think we've been doing this for about a year now. It's scary, let's be honest. It's scary jumping on a podcast and sharing who you are and what you're doing. So, can you tell us more about that?
\n\nBRITTANY: Absolutely. I think one thing is just knowing what is your brand and, you know, what listeners should expect from listening to you because this is a podcast that had been around for ten years. You know, it had changed formats several times. It was an interview-style podcast at one point. At one point, it was a bunch of co-hosts that would just meet every week to talk out what was going on. And so I really needed to take a moment and kind of look over the metrics of the episodes.
\n\nLike, I have that marketing background. I have that product background. So I wanted to know, like, what's actually working? Like, what do listeners want to listen to? And I also, like, kind of pored through all the reviews of the podcast. I'm like, did people even notice that this podcast went offline? Like, what's the current ecosystem? How many podcasts are out there in the Ruby and Rails space?
\n\nAnd so what I started doing is I wanted to create, like, a safe environment in order to start the podcast over again. So what I did is I did interview-style podcasts with my friends, people that would tolerate me, you know, making mistakes, knowing that I was probably...I am a terrible editor. And so bringing those people on to have just genuine conversations with. And then really just tried to pick up the listenership of the podcast because I'm basically waving my arms saying, "Hey, folks. Like, The Ruby on Rails Podcast is back. I'm here as your host. And, like, we are here to stay. Like, I want this to be a mainstay in the community."
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. So you started to apply those concepts from your product background. And I'm curious what you found in how the business of the podcast really works.
\n\nBRITTANY: Yeah, I learned a lot, and we can talk about the transition. So, when I came on to the 5by5 Ruby on Rails Podcast, at the time, this was back in 2018. The podcast was being managed by 5by5, which is, like, a long-standing podcast network. They're still around, but they're much smaller than they used to be.
\n\nSo, like, all of the sponsorship and the episode management was being handled by them. And so I didn't have a lot of insight into that part of the podcast. What I did have insight into is, like, what content is performing well? And what is the audience reaction to what we're putting out there? Like, how is the listenership coming back and whatnot?
\n\nNow, one thing that did happen over the course of me managing The Ruby on Rails Podcast is we decided to take the podcast independent at one point, you know, 5by5 was starting to wind down. And so, back in 2021, I reached out to 5by5 and said, "Hey, I genuinely really love this podcast. I want to be able to take it to a different platform, you know, have it go independent. But it's really important to me that I'm able to hold on to the current subscribers that I have."
\n\nI think we all know that, like, if you rebrand something and it's a totally different RSS feed, it's really hard to get people to move over, especially if they're using something that makes podcast listening really easy like Apple Podcasts, you know, you subscribe. You get new episodes, and you just hit play. And so they were extremely willing to work with me.
\n\nAnd so, we ended up taking the podcast independent. 5by5 created the hosting platform Fireside. And so we moved the podcast over to Fireside, and that was, like, a very seamless transition. But it was a moment in time where, you know, I was kind of questioning. We're no longer 5by5. It was the 5by5 Ruby on Rails Podcast. What do we call it? And so I genuinely had that moment where I was like, I could be really clever with the name. But then I stepped back, and I was like, no, everyone already refers to it as The Ruby on Rails Podcast. I'm just going to go with it. And so I think that ended up being a good decision.
\n\nWe did change the logo of the show. We kept the same feed. And we had, like, the first episode on the new...we're not even on a network now; we're independent. The first episode of, like, the V2 of The Ruby on Rails Podcast is really what we called it. We just kind of explained the whole move. And I'm just deeply grateful all of our listeners just kind of followed along.
\n\nAnd I will say the biggest boon to us moving is that we did get a professional editor. And so, like, the quality of the episodes went up, which is the best money that you can spend. Get yourself a professional editor. I cannot stress that enough. Or you get really good at it yourself. But I know my own skills, and it was never going to be that way.
\n\nAnd so we took it independent. And I also decided to do a format change as well because it was a lot to do years of a podcast by myself. It was a lot. So I'm really glad Victoria and Will that you have each other. I think it's really great to have co-hosts. So I ended up moving the podcast. I now have a producing partner, and that's Mirror Placement. They do recruiting for Ruby on Rails, and they are wonderful partners.
\n\nBut I also have three co-hosts that rotate through. I have Brian Mariani, who's a recruiter and founder of Mirror Placement. I have Jemma Issroff, who works on Ruby at Shopify. And I have Nick Schwaderer, who works on Rails infrastructure at Shopify. And that's been great because I rotate through those co-hosts. And I always have fresh content from them. But I also do the interview-style episodes as well, which Victoria was on recently.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes. I agree 100%. Having a co-host like Will makes it so much more fun. And I cannot appreciate our editor Mandy Moore enough. And I agree on that advice. And I actually would add when people ask me if they should start a podcast, recommend having at least one other person [laughs] who you want to talk with about that topic for every week. But I wonder, if someone's thinking about starting a podcast, what would you have them consider as to whether or not it's worth it for them?
\n\nBRITTANY: I recently joined the podcasting subreddit on Reddit just because I was interested to see what kind of questions there were out there. Because when I got into podcasting, I was, like, oh, you just need to have a microphone and a way to record, and you just put it out there, and people are going to listen. It feels very much...like, you remember when, you know, the iPhone came out, and the App Store was empty? And then any app that you made was, like, amazing. Everybody would download it because there was nothing to download. We're now getting to a point with podcasts; there's just a lot out there.
\n\nMy first bit of advice is, something that I said earlier, is make sure that you have an identity around your podcasts. Like, make sure that you are targeting a niche. It's fine if there are other people doing it, but do something that is uniquely you and do something that brings you joy. I really love talking to people in the Ruby on Rails Community. I have a special affinity for people who have never been on a podcast before. It's a lot of work.
\n\nSo it's definitely worth it. I've gotten to meet a lot of my programming heroes because of it. And there are times where I've been very tempted to take a break and be able to step away from it. But, as of right now, it has been a good experience.
\n\nAnd what I often say whenever I open up my conference talks is the Ruby on Rails Community is my community contribution because I'm not someone who regularly contributes to open source. And so this is kind of, like, how I give back, and I get to meet a lot of amazing people.
\n\nMid-Roll Ad:
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\n\nVICTORIA: And with me here, I have Richard Newman, who's the Development Director on our Boost Team, to talk to me a little bit more about what maintenance actually looks like once you've built your software application, right?
\n\nRICHARD: Hi, Victoria.
\n\nVICTORIA: Hi, Richard. You have experience building applications. I wonder if you could describe to a founder who's considering to build an application, like, what should they consider for their long-term maintenance?
\n\nRICHARD: Well, like you said earlier, part of what you're going for with that long-term maintenance is making sure the health of your project, of your application, is always there. And you don't want to be surprised as you're continuing to work with your users and so forth.
\n\nAnd so a number of things that we pay attention to in maintenance are we're paying attention to keeping the application secure, providing security updates. We want to make sure that the ecosystem, basically, all of the tools and third-party services that are tied to your application, we're responding to those sorts of changes as we go along.
\n\nAnd then part of it is, occasionally, you're going to find some smaller issues or bugs or so forth as your user group continues to grow or as needs continue to change. You want to be able to respond to those quickly as well. And so a lot of what goes into maintenance is making sure that you're paying attention and you're ahead of those things before they surprise you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Because what can happen? Like, what are the consequences if you don't do that ongoing maintenance?
\n\nRICHARD: Well, the security updates those happen across gems and in the platform sort of tools that are there. And so, if you're not keeping those up to date, your exposure, your vulnerability to being hacked, or having a bad actor come into your application start growing on you if you're not doing the maintenance.
\n\nThe other ones that can come up is there's new interfaces that these third-party services...they may be updating their APIs. They may be updating how you're supposed to work with their tool. And so those can occasionally break if you're not paying attention to what's going on or you're suddenly surprised by an upgrade that you have to make.
\n\nAnd then, finally, there's this long-term sort of code change that just builds up over time if you're not keeping it refactored for the changes that are upcoming in a language or the gems that you work with. And then, suddenly, after a while, it suddenly gets to the point where you have a lot of work that you might have to do to rehabilitate the application to take on some of the newer features that are being released. And so that makes it that much more difficult, that much more friction about being able to deliver updates for your users or to be able to respond to changes that are happening out there in your application.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. So, if you don't have that ongoing maintenance, you could run into a situation where suddenly, you need to make a very large investment and fixing whatever is broken.
\n\nRICHARD: Absolutely. It's going to be very tough to plan for if you weren't keeping up all the way along and, yes, absolutely ends up being much slower if you have to remediate it.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. I wonder if you have any examples of a project you've walked into and said, "Wow, I wish we had been doing a little bit more maintenance." [laughs] And maybe you can share some details.
\n\nRICHARD: Yeah. We had a fairly large application that involved a number of clinic services. So we had an application that users were going in every day and counting on our fast response. And, over time, we've got surprised by a database upgrade that had to happen. Basically, the database was going to be changed by our third-party hosting service, and that hadn't been tested. There hadn't been procedures in place when we discovered this need. And there was a very hard date that that change had to be done or else the entire application was going to go down.
\n\nAnd it came at a very inconvenient time, at the end of the year around Christmas, that we had to respond to all of that. And had we been in front of it and just updated it every quarter and staying current with it, it wouldn't have been nearly the lift that it turned out to be. We were facing a pretty hard deadline [laughs] there to keep things going. It was very, very stressful and disruptive for the team and potentially for the clinics.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And it always happens around a big holiday or something like that, right? When it all comes to a head.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nRICHARD: Absolutely. You want to be in control of the timeframe and not have the timeframe be in control of you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And if you have a team like thoughtbot supporting you, you can go on your vacation with a little bit more knowledge that if something breaks, there's someone there who can respond and fix things, and you don't have to interrupt your very valuable time off. So...
\n\nRICHARD: [chuckles] Absolutely.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Richard, for joining me today. I appreciate you coming here to talk with us. And we'll talk to you again soon.
\n\nRICHARD: Yeah, it was a pleasure. Thank you.
\n\nWILL: I have a question around your listeners. I just want to take a second and just thank everyone who listens to the podcast. We really appreciate you so much, so just thank you, thank you, thank you. Because if you don't have listeners, you don't have a podcast, like you said a second ago. And you went through so many changes. What's been your biggest win, and how do you continue winning with your listeners? And how do you engage with them?
\n\nBRITTANY: This is a fun answer because, actually, thoughtbot comes into play there. They did not pay me to say this. But one thing that The Bike Shed used to do is they used to go to RailsConf and RubyConf, and they would record episodes during the conference with various Ruby heroes in the community. This is going back to me seeing these people as celebrities. I just thought that was, like, the coolest thing. And, at the time, I couldn't afford to go to conferences like that. So being able to listen to those podcasts and get to hear that kind of content was really important to me.
\n\nAnd so, you know, eventually, that stopped being a thing at RubyConf and RailsConf. And two years ago, I reached out and said, "Hey, I really love those kinds of sessions. Is there any way that I could take the lead on bringing those sessions back?" And we did. So it took in the form of a podcast panel at these different conferences where we would bring in different podcasts in the community. And we would have a panel. We would answer listener questions. It was genuinely a lot of fun.
\n\nSo that is a proud moment for me. But it's a proud moment for me because it gave me the opportunity to reach out to podcasts in the community and say, "Hey, we're not competing here. We're friends. I want to record content with you. Like, please be part of my podcast community." And we have never been tighter.
\n\nSo, like, we guest on each other's podcasts. We promote each other's podcasts on like Mastodon and Twitter. And it is just the most lovely thing ever because now we say things like, oh, yeah, like, this podcast, like, that's our, like, sister podcast, or that's our brother podcast. Like, it's so cool that we, you know, rising tide raises all ships. That's exactly what's happening here in the Ruby podcast community.
\n\nVICTORIA: I like that familial sense within the different Ruby on Rails podcasts, and maybe even Giant Robots is a part of that. Like, are we a cousin or an uncle? [laughter] Who knows? But I was actually there when you recorded the episode live at RailsConf in Atlanta this year. Was that your favorite moment at RailsConf, or was it something else?
\n\nBRITTANY: Yeah, I would say that was my favorite moment at RailsConf. No matter how many times I meet Aaron Patterson, I am always, like, deeply intimidated by just how funny and intelligent he is. So having that excuse of reaching out to him and saying like, "Hey, will you please be on this podcast panel?" was so fun.
\n\nI deeply adore Irina Nazarova, and so having her on the panel as well was fun. And then just doing the wildcard of having the audience, like, vote in who was going to be the third panel was truly a risky move, Victoria. [laughs] But it ended up paying off, and it ended up generating some really fun content for us.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's awesome. And I'm curious, you know, to talk a little bit more about the Ruby on Rails Community. And what do you see is the biggest challenge that it's facing right now?
\n\nBRITTANY: Oh, I have so many opinions on this. What a great question. [laughs] So I recently put together a talk proposal. It's currently waitlisted at a conference, but it is a talk that I very much want to give.
\n\nBut one project that I would really like to work on is...between, I would say, 2013 and 2015, Ruby on Rails was definitely the number one framework that was being taught in bootcamps. And I'm really curious about what happened to all those people. I'm one of them. I learned Ruby on Rails in 2014. I still believe that I'm in the Ruby on Rails Community, not only for the podcast, but I'm an engineering manager for a company that writes Rails. So I believe I'm very much in the community. I'm so curious. Those people had so much potential of being seniors, principals, staff engineers, founders, engineering managers, architects. What happened to them? And did they stay in our community?
\n\nAnd then my second part of that is, what does it mean to be in the Ruby on Rails Community? Like, can you just listen to podcasts and be in the community? Do you need to actively write Ruby? I just find that whole thing very interesting. We're very obsessed with bringing new programmers into the Rails community, which I think is important. But what about the people who we taught Rails and left us? Like, is there an opportunity to bring them back?
\n\nWILL: It's funny you say that because I wasn't in that year range. I was a little later, like, 2017. And I learned Ruby on Rails, and then I went to JavaScript, you know, React, React Native, but I'm slowly inching back towards Ruby on Rails. My current project, I'm actually able to do some Ruby on Rails. And I'm really excited about it because, like you, that was my first language style that I learned, and I still love it. It is weird, but you always love your first language; I do, at least. So it's interesting that you said that because, yeah, I can say, for me, I'm slowly coming back towards it.
\n\nBRITTANY: Well, welcome back, Will. We're excited to have you.
\n\nI know that Node was such a heavy hitter when it came out, and it made a lot of sense. Like, we're going to teach you JavaScript on the front end. Oh, hey, we're going to also teach you JavaScript on the back end. You know, from the business side, I'm so curious whether or not Rails is still, like, one of the top three solutions in order to get an MVP off the ground. I don't have my thumb on that, so I'm very curious whether or not that's true or not.
\n\nVICTORIA: We certainly still tend to default to it at thoughtbot and to get MVPs off the ground. And we're still building a bunch of products every year with it. [laughs] So, Ruby on Rails and React together, especially if you're trying to iterate very quickly and test your assumptions about what you're building, I think that it's still a really fast and high-performing framework to use.
\n\nAnd it's interesting because there's a coding school in San Diego, Codecademy, which is really heavily involved, [chuckles] of course, in the Ruby on Rails Community, and they still teach it in their bootcamp. And one of the reasons they said to me was because it's one of the frameworks that gives you that holistic view of how everything works. [laughs]
\n\nLike, if you're new to tech, new to programming, in general, it's a very easy entry point to understanding. And I think that, of itself, when you're talking, like, the long-term viability of a framework, being able to hire people who can step in and understand what's going on in your codebase, that framework gives you a higher chance of that. [laughs] You know, that might point to your long-term success, too.
\n\nBRITTANY: Now, that's a really good point. Going back to the podcast as well, I think one thing that is not very well solved is just being able to make it sustainable as well because there are only so many sponsors out there. And it's really hard to prove ROI from sponsoring a podcast, right? Like, you can put links in the show notes. And you can hope people click on them and they convert. And you can be able to say, "Hey, this podcast is the reason."
\n\nBut I've seen a lot of people start podcasts, and they think, well, if I put a bunch of episodes out and some people listen, then sponsors are going to knock down my door. I'm very lucky that I've had some long-term sponsors that have been able to keep the show sustainable. And I love seeing podcasts that come out of companies, you know, like thoughtbot, where you are being sustained by the company that, you know, is producing it. It's really hard to justify a podcast as a business unless you are already a major celebrity already, right?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, we certainly don't do it for the money it makes us directly off the podcast. We do not.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nBRITTANY: We do not.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I agree with that. And yeah, and even it's interesting as an advertising vehicle or marketing for your company. It can be great because, like, I feel with Giant Robots, we have so many listeners, like, loyal listeners over the years that we have this, like, direct way of communicating with a community that we care about. [laughs] But if you don't have...trying to, like, create that market and create that group of people from the ground up can be really tough. [laughs] And it takes a lot of time, a lot of investment, and a lot of effort, especially if you can't afford a professional editor. [laughs]
\n\nBRITTANY: Agreed. There's just some cost that I believe, like, the longer I do this, that are just, like, non-negotiable. There are some things that you can definitely have as optional. You know, for me, like, you have to have a good microphone. You have to have a professional editor. I pay for, like, my calendar scheduling software because I want to make that really, like, slick for my guests. Like, I used to...oh, I used to do the emails back and forth of, like, I'm available at Thursday at 2:00 or Friday at 3:00. Like, would one of these work for you? No. [laughs] It's just...that's a rotten experience.
\n\nFor us, we do send, like, a thank you gift after being on the show, which has been, like, a nice add with having a producing partner that will back me on that. And I try to get to as many conferences as possible because I think it's a great vehicle to promote the podcast, but those end up all being optional. And all those things they do cost money.
\n\nVICTORIA: They do. And it's funny, like, yeah, getting out to the conferences, it's still the number one way to grow things is by meeting people in person [laughs], like, being real and human.
\n\nBRITTANY: Shocking, right? [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And I'm just kind of curious, like, in terms of how you picture what success means for your podcast. Like, what does that look like in the next six months or even, like, five years of hosting this podcast for you?
\n\nBRITTANY: Ooh, this is, like, the existential crisis question because I've been doing it for nearly five years. And I think the question is always going to be, you know, like, how long do I want to keep hosting the podcast? I will say the podcast is a positive influence on me in terms of making sure that I stay connected to people, that I keep writing code on the side so that way, I know what I'm talking about.
\n\nI have this whole imposter thing of, like, what if someone finds out I'm not a Ruby on Rails developer day to day and that I'm, like, actually thinking about business problems; I was, like, an engineering manager? You know, I'm going to get found out, and people are going to unsubscribe.
\n\nBut in all seriousness, I think the success for this podcast is that it can go on without me. It's been around for that long already. And eventually, like, I want to have a succession plan where someones, I will say, like, multiple co-hosts to be able to take it over from there. It'll be rough to watch because, like, I really enjoy, you know, my current era because I feel like the podcast has gone through different eras. I really do enjoy it. But, at some point, it's just not going to make sense in terms of my professional goals. Do you feel the same?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes. But we're only a year in. So I feel like I'm still...[laughter] I feel like I'm still new to hosting. And I'm like, oh, I've already recorded, like, 30 episodes or something. [laughs]
\n\nThere's been a lot of change. And we're always thinking about, like, how do we make it better? What do we do? And trying to figure out how do we really get the most out of it for ourselves. But I feel the same way that it's just one of the more fun things that I do at thoughtbot [laughs]. And it gives me that chance to reach out to people and start conversations that I otherwise would not have had. So I really appreciate it. I don't know what you think, Will.
\n\nWILL: No, I totally agree with you. I love meeting new people. And I love meeting the diverse group of people that we have on the podcast. I love that just, like, how did you get here? Like, what makes you keep at it? Like, you've been at it for five years. What makes you keep at it? Just those questions like that I really love.
\n\nFor me personally, I think that I'm still in the growing phase of podcast hosting. Like, I can get better at this. I can get better at that. What else can I get better at? So I think that's where I'm at in this phase. But, like Victoria said, that's only a year in. It's a different story when you're five years in.
\n\nBRITTANY: [laughs] It is. And one thing that I will do to make it more sustainable is, you know, like when you're running, you can either be sprinting, or you can be doing, like, a long endurance race. So with the podcast, I will book a bunch of podcasts in one week and say, this is my week to be recording. Like, I'm going to be very heads down on the podcast. I have other things going on in my life, but I'm like, this is a podcast week for me. And so I will record a bunch of episodes.
\n\nAnd that essentially gives me a couple of weeks where I can essentially take a break from the podcast. But guess what, listeners? Like, you're still getting new episodes. So you have no idea that I'm secretly taking a break. And I think that has also been a huge help.
\n\nOdd fact is that the five years that I've been hosting The Ruby on Rails Podcast, I am only missing from one episode. And the reason for that is that when I broke my ankle, [laughs] I called my co-host and was like, "Hey, I'm going into surgery tomorrow. We have this great episode being recorded tomorrow. I need you to take it." [laughs] And so that is the one episode that I am missing from, but I think it was a good lesson for me to know that I can step away and good content can still happen.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing. That's a pretty good record. [laughs]
\n\nBRITTANY: Or it might be obsessive, Will. I don't know.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nWILL: Let me ask you this, what does success look like for you personally - roller derby, your full-time job? What does success look like for you in those areas in six months or a couple of years?
\n\nBRITTANY: Oh, that's a really great question. So I had stepped away from roller derby during the pandemic. And so I absolutely love fitness. I do CrossFit. I have a peloton. I have my own little home gym that I built during the pandemic that I absolutely adore.
\n\nSo, you know, success for me is continuing to invest in that self-care. I want to keep skating just because I'm that person. Everyone came to me, and they're like, "Oh, you broke your ankle. I bet you won't go back to a roller derby." And I was like, oh, you think I won't? You think I won't go back? [laughs] So I'm headed back, but I'm going to be very careful about it. Because I've seen that, you know, your body can break, and you need to give yourself some rest.
\n\nBut to answer, overall, like, I am an engineering manager now, and, you know, my goal is to eventually to get to that director level. And, in some ways, like, I can justify the podcast just because I do get the excuse to talk to people that have the job that I eventually want to have in my career. And so it helps in that regard as well.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think that's great, and I agree. That's also why I started getting involved in my community a lot, maybe 5 or 10 years ago. I was just like, here's opportunities to show my leadership and see how connected I am with other leaders. [laughs] It helps in that way. And on blading, I actually bought rollerblades recently just to go around the neighborhood.
\n\nBRITTANY: Yeesssss!
\n\nVICTORIA: And I got heckled by a woman [laughs] who said...I think she was being sincere, but she was like, "Bend your knees, and it's going to be okay." [laughter] Like, "Wear wrist guards next time." [laughter] I was like, maybe just my face was very try-hard in that moment. Because I have a lot of respect for people who can roller derby and get around on skates that fast. [laughs]
\n\nBRITTANY: Well, you know what's really funny? (I haven't even talked about this on my own podcast.) is that you know, I'm involved in the Roller Derby League. Obviously, I can't skate right now. And so I needed to find a committee so that I was able to still, you know, provide value to the league. And so, for some reason, I decided that skater resources would be a good idea.
\n\nSo I'm essentially one of the people who is, you know, human resources within the Roller Derby League. And so when there are disputes or questions, or people have hurt feelings, like, they're coming to me, which is, you know, really funny because I do some of that as an engineering manager. So, like, to your point, Victoria, like, you know, I can do growth because they're way more extreme through roller derby, as you can imagine. And, in some ways, it ends up being good practice.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, that does sound like practice for higher-level management decisions, [laughs] so get ready. You're going to have issues and problems, and you're the one to solve it. So...
\n\nBRITTANY: Yeah. It's not like their problems don't matter. But, in some ways, it's almost like playing with monopoly money because, like, you know, you're not dealing with somebody's, like, livelihood. You're dealing with a sport that they do for fun. Like, trust me, no one is being paid to play roller derby. [laughs] It's a very expensive sport. There's a lot of equipment involved. And, Victoria, yes, you want to wear wristguards.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes. I learned my lesson.
\n\nBRITTANY: You write code. You want to wear wrist guards.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And yeah, it's funny about things like that. Like, it's still very meaningful to people. Like, when I used to coach kids' climbing competitions, it's, like, the same thing. Like, it's rock climbing, everybody, but some people take it very seriously. [laughs] There's a lot of feelings involved. But, at the end of the day, it's nice to have that practice outside of the pressure of it being someone's livelihood and all of those details.
\n\nBRITTANY: Agreed.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, let me ask you this question. It's one of our favorite ones. But if you could go back in time and give advice to your younger self, what would you say? And maybe it's at the beginning of the podcast or some other inflection point in your career.
\n\nBRITTANY: That is...oh, what a gift because hindsight is 20/20, isn't it? When I was going through school, I ended up getting a marketing degree because I really enjoyed business. I really liked, you know, the mechanics behind marketing. But, at the time, I had taken a couple of computer classes, and this was back in 2006. And, you know, I thought about double majoring in computer science and marketing. And someone gave me the terrible advice that computer programming was going to go away [laughs], and so it would be a waste of time to get that double degree in computer science. And so, you know, I'm very much a second career developer.
\n\nLike I noted earlier, you know, I was a PM. I was a non-technical product manager before I learned how to code, and so I learned how to code in my 30s. So I wish I could go back and get into programming way earlier. It would have changed the entire trajectory of my life. But part of me always wants to live out, like, that Black Mirror, like, what it would have been like if I had learned to code so much earlier. Would I have found Ruby? Maybe not.
\n\nWILL: I totally agree with that because the same story. I remember growing up, and I had a cousin that lived next door. He used to program, and I was just, like, he was a celebrity because I was like, whoa, look what he's doing, and how can you do that? And then I went off to college.
\n\nWell, I grew up in a small town, so we didn't really have many computer programs. I went to a college, and they said, "Hey, we have this one computer course you can either take it or test out." I was like; I'm not taking it; test out. I want to save that money. And I didn't realize how much I'll love computers and programming until later in life, late 20s, early 30s. And I wish I could have started early, so I totally agree with you about that.
\n\nVICTORIA: Like, I wish I would have time now to learn how to code. [laughs] Like, I still need to learn it. No, I think that...oh, would I advise? I don't know. You know what's funny? A recent guest said that if that had happened, they still wouldn't have believed themselves [laughs], right? Like, would you really believe someone telling you what to do? Like, you know, you try to make the best decision that you can at the time.
\n\nBRITTANY: I think it's fun to look back and see all the little things that happened that got you to where you are. So, like, two of, like, crucial things that happened for me. I was in school to become a genetic counselor, and I hated it. And so I had gotten an internship, and, like, that internship changed everything because it was like a day in the life as a genetic counselor, and I really did not like it at all. And so, I ended up dropping all my classes and moving into the business school. And so that was one thing that happened.
\n\nAnd then the second thing is, you know, I was working at a cowboy restaurant. [laughs] It was ridiculous. And I was getting ready to graduate school and just absolutely terrified about not having a job. I ended up getting this table of this company that was, like, having a business meeting, and we ended up chatting, and they were so wonderful. And they left me their business card, and, like, that ended up being my first job.
\n\nIt's just the little micro-decisions that you make that, like, change your entire trajectory, which is really so cool. So you end up not really regretting anything, but you always just kind of look back and reflect, and you're like, what if I had given that table away? Or what if I hadn't been ambitious and, like, tried to get that internship? So just everything's an opportunity, right?
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I totally, totally agree with that. So you do roller derby, CrossFit, marathons, coding, your podcast. So you do a lot of self-care, which I don't think, especially in the tech world, we do enough self-care. I know I don't. I am horrible at it, trying to get better. What's your wind in your sails for that? Like, how do you keep going? Like, how do you stay disciplined with that?
\n\nBRITTANY: I think, for me, I feel better when I move my body. I make better decisions. I am more patient. I need to work out earlier in the day. Like, I am a morning person, and so it makes me feel good. And so then I go into work in a good mood. And I deal with people day to day, right? Like, I manage ten developers. And so it's also something that I can use to connect with my team as well. A lot of them also like to do physical things, and so that works out nicely.
\n\nIn terms of nutrition, I definitely could be better. But I will say my partner and I take turns meal prepping our lunches. We both work from home. And so being able to, like, in between meetings run over and grab a box of actually good food to be able to eat lunch. We do, like, a meal service at night as well.
\n\nI don't know, like, you need to look out for you. Because while the belief is that other people are also looking out, nobody's going to look out for you like you are. And so you have to prioritize self-care and just making sure that you're getting those moments. And I agree with you, Will; sometimes, I'm absolutely terrible at setting up those processes so that way you don't fall through.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think there's a book that makes me think of it called, like, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck. [laughs]
\n\nBRITTANY: Yes.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah.
\n\nBRITTANY: Yes.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yep. And I think that's part of it, too. Like, there's a lot of pressure to be so high-performing and to do all the things for your family, and for your work and your personal life. But, at the end of the day, it's also okay to just sit around and do nothing [laughs] and, like, relax.
\n\nBRITTANY: Yeah, I've watched a lot of Drag Race, a lot. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, awesome. Yes. What's your favorite season?
\n\nBRITTANY: Oh, season six, I would say. Season six is just so good. Are you watching All-Stars?
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm not right now. I'm actually...I usually binge-watch it at random times. So I'm not really caught up. But I have met a few of them at drag shows. I think I've met Milk. Is that [inaudible 44:27]
\n\nBRITTANY: Oh, wow. What a queen to have met.
\n\nVICTORIA: I know.
\n\nBRITTANY: That's amazing. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: That was actually a very funny story. I'll tell you another time. [laughs] But yes.
\n\nBRITTANY: But honestly, like, Drag Race actually relates to engineering management for me because, you know, at my last job, I had two developers that I was struggling to connect with. And I realized that after stand-up, they were staying behind to talk about Drag Race, and I wanted to connect with them. And I was like, oh, I'll check out a couple of episodes and became so deeply addicted [laughs] that, like, I surpassed them in how much I loved it.
\n\nSo, like, it is a fun, like, I've always thought about giving a conference talk where, like, each report that I have, like, one crazy thing that they do...well, not crazy but, like, one, you know, passion that they have and, like, trying it just to have something to relate to. Though I will say, I did manage somebody who really liked to jump out of planes, and that is just not in the cards for me.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that too. I like when someone is really passionate about something. I'm like, okay, I'll give it a chance, at least once, you know. But I have some friends right now who are into freediving, and I'm not convinced [laughs] that I want to go try to hold my breath underwater.
\n\nBRITTANY: What in the world is freediving?
\n\nVICTORIA: It's diving underwater without oxygen.
\n\nBRITTANY: No.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Yeah.
\n\nBRITTANY: That's a big nope for me.
\n\nVICTORIA: And, like, hunting fish. So, like, they catch tuna and stuff. They're down there pew-pew and making sushi when they get back.
\n\nBRITTANY: Well, that actually sounds wonderful. But --
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I'm like, I will eat this. I will eat [laughs] whatever you catch.
\n\nBRITTANY: Yes, that's fair.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Like, I'm into the results but not...I might try some of the, like... a lot of it is, like, training your breath and being able to hold your breath and to stay calm because that's really the biggest problem. [laughs] I do rock climbing. I think that's enough. Like, that's --
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nBRITTANY: That's pretty badass.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. [laughs]
\n\nWILL: Yes.
\n\nBRITTANY: That is a very cool sport.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And, actually, you're mentioning how it was, like, you worked at a cowboy restaurant, and that was how you got your first connection to your job. And, like, I would go up to, like, my college climbing wall and be, like, I'm a rock climber; you should hire me. And [laughs] through that connection, I got my first referral to my first job in DC. And so, basically, my whole life revolves around it. [laughs] Nothing would happen without these little connections that you make.
\n\nI'm curious, Will, if you had a pivot point like that you can tell us about.
\n\nWILL: It was probably getting to tech because it was more of a hobby, and sometimes it's still a big hobby for me. So I will say either getting into tech or working out. So I try to work out with friends. So I used to play football. Everything was a group workout. So after football, it was very hard for me to work out because it was always a group workout. So after many, many years of finally realizing that, I try to work out in groups, with friends, and stuff like that. So that's probably the biggest thing for me is, like, working out in a group and having someone to hold me accountable.
\n\nBRITTANY: I love that. That's one reason...so I used to be a fitness instructor. I should reveal that as well. I used to be a BODYPUMP instructor. And the reason for that is just, like, again, I thought people that were fitness instructors were just, like, celebrities and absolute badasses. And so, I used to only go to group fitness class as well because I needed that accountability. And so, yeah, there's definitely days I wake up where I absolutely do not want to do anything. But having that accountability, it's just really awesome, and really, it makes sure that you follow through.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense how you've practiced your voice and why your podcasting voice is so strong [laughter] because you're a fitness instructor. That's what is starting to add up for me. [laughter]
\n\nBRITTANY: You know what? The biggest challenge of being a fitness instructor is that they would send me the routines, and I would have to memorize them. And being able to memorize like, oh, I'm going to squat on the fourth count. And I'm going to do a clean and press on the eighth count. Oh my God, is that an algorithm --
\n\nWILL: Yes.
\n\nBRITTANY: You know, for a pro...and I was like, is there any way that I could somehow automate? Like, part of me wanted to game it. I'm like, how do I game this so I don't have to spend so much time trying to memorize it? I mean, it was truly, truly challenging. And it was probably, like, the best brain teaser that I could have been doing because you're essentially putting on a live performance while working out. And everyone needs to be able to follow you and feel encouraged by you. It was just...it was a wild time.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: That sounds very demanding. Well, coming up to the end of our time here, is there anything else you would like to promote today?
\n\nBRITTANY: Ooh, no. We're currently not hiring at my job. Normally, that is something that I would promote. I would say if you are interested in checking out my podcast, it is The Ruby on Rails Podcast. We have plenty of things on there that are not Rails-specific. We've had conversations about, like, what's it like to get stock options at a company? What does the recruiting landscape currently look like? And then we also have, like, deep topics about, like, what's currently being merged into Ruby Core? So, really, we have a wide variety of topics.
\n\nSo, if you find my voice somewhat pleasant, come on over; we'd be happy to have you. And, of course, you can listen to Victoria's episode, that will be linked up in the show notes. But this was such a pleasure. It was great spending time with you both, Will and Victoria.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, it was great. Loved chatting with you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, thank you so much for joining. This was super fun.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm.
\n\nWILL: If you have any questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you could find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nVICTORIA: And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Brittany Martin.
","summary":"Brittany Martin is an Engineering Manager at Shogun, where she manages a team of Ruby and React engineers and is the Co-host of The Ruby on Rails Podcast.\r\n\r\nVictoria and Will talk to Brittany about the multitude of stuff she's interested in, including Roller Derby, and gives the story of how she found herself co-hosting the show. She says knowing what your brand is and what listeners should expect from listening to you is super important, and she gives her opinion on what it means to be in the Ruby on Rails Community.","date_published":"2023-07-20T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/813476f9-eae5-469d-8bf3-339cf5936269.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":64450799,"duration_in_seconds":3030}]},{"id":"99c2286f-3a41-40d3-94bf-074d8838dab6","title":"483: Honeycomb.io with Charity Majors","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/483","content_text":"Charity Majors is Co-Founder and CTO of Honeycomb, which provides full-stack observability that enables engineers to deeply understand and debug production software together.\n\nVictoria and Will talk to Charity about observability, her technical background and decision to start Honeycomb.io, thoughts about the whole ops SRE profession, and things that surprised her along her journey of building a company around observability as a concept.\n\n\nHoneycomb\nFollow Honeycomb on Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, or LinkedIn.\nFollow Charity Majors on LinkedIn or Twitter, or visit her website.\nFollow thoughtbot on Twitter or LinkedIn.\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido.\n\nWILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. And with us today is Charity Majors, Co-Founder and CTO of Honeycomb, which provides full-stack observability that enables engineers to deeply understand and debug production software together. Charity, thank you for joining us. How are you doing?\n\nCHARITY: Thanks for having me. I'm a little bit crunchy from a [laughs] long flight this morning. But I'm very happy to be home in San Francisco and happy to be talking to you.\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. And, Charity, I looked at your profile and noticed that you're a fan of whiskey. And I thought I might ask you just to get us started here, like, what's your favorite brand?\n\nCHARITY: Oh, goodness, that's like asking me to choose my favorite child if I had children. [laughter]. You know, I used to really be into the peaty scotches, the Islays, in particular. But lately, I've been more of a bourbon kick. Of course, everybody loves Pappy Van Winkle, George T. Stagg; impossible to find now, but it's so, so good. You know, if it's high-proof and single barrel, I will probably drink it.\n\nVICTORIA: That sounds great. Yeah, I tend to have the same approach. And, like, people ask me if I like it, and I like all of them. [laughter] I don't [inaudible 01:21] that I didn't like. [laughs] \n\nCHARITY: [inaudible 01:23] tongue sting? Then I'm in. [laughs]\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, [inaudible 01:26]. \n\nWILL: See, I'm the opposite. I want something smooth. I'm a fruity drink type of guy. I'm just going, to be honest. \n\nCHARITY: There's no shame in that. \n\nWILL: No shame here. [laughs] Give me a margarita, and you have a happy Will for life. [laughs]\n\nVICTORIA: We'll have to get you to come out and visit San Diego for some margaritas, Will. That's -- \n\nCHARITY: Oh yeah.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, it's the place to be. Yeah, we do more of a bourbon drink in our house, like bourbon soda. That's usually what we make, like, my own custom simple syrup, and mix it with a little bourbon and soda water. And that's what we do for a cool down at the end of the day sometimes, yeah. Well, awesome. \n\nLet's see. So, Charity, why don't you just tell me a little more about Honeycomb? What is it?\n\nCHARITY: Well, it's a startup that hasn't failed yet, so... [laughs] to my own shock. [laughs] We're still around seven and a half years in. And I say that just so much joking. Like, you're not really supposed to say this as a founder, but, like, I 100% thought we were going to fail from the beginning. But we haven't yet, and we just got more money. So we'll be around for a while.\n\nWe kind of pioneered the whole concept of observability, which now doesn't really mean anything at all. Everybody and their mother is like, well, I do observability, too. But back when we started talking about it, it was kind of a little bit revolutionary, I guess in that, you know, we started talking about how important it is to have high cardinality data in your systems. You really can't debug without it. \n\nAnd the fact that our systems are getting just astronomically more complex, and yet, we're still trying to debug it with these tools based on, you know, the metric data type [laughs] defined since the '70s when space was incredibly rare and expensive. And now space is incredibly cheap, but we should be wasteful with it so we can understand our incredibly complex systems. So that's us.\n\nWe really try to empower software engineers to own their own code in production. For a long time, it was like, all of the tools for you to understand your software were really written for low-level ops people because they speak the language of, like, RAM, and disks, and CPU, which you shouldn't have to understand that in order to be able to understand I just deployed something, what went wrong?\n\nWILL: I love the honesty because there are so many founders that I'll talk to, and I'm like, okay, you're very successful. But did you really expect this to be what it is today? Did you really expect to survive? Because, like, just some of their ideas, I'm like, it's brilliant, but if I was with you back in the day, I'd be like, it ain't going to work. It's not going to work. [laughs]\n\nCHARITY: Yeah. And I feel like the VC culture really encourages delusion, just, like, self-delusion, like, this delusive thinking. You're supposed to, like, broadcast just, like, rock-solid confidence in yourself and your ideas at all time. And I think that only sociopaths do that. [laughs] I don't want to work for anyone who's that confident in themselves or their idea. \n\nBecause I'm showing my own stripes, I guess, you know, I'm a reliability engineer. I wake up in the morning; I'm like, what's wrong with the day? That's just how my brain works. But I feel like I would rather work with people who are constantly scanning the horizon and being like, okay, what's likely to kill us today? Instead of people who are just like, I am right. [laughs] You know?\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And I can relate that back to observability by thinking how, you know, you can have an idea about how your system is supposed to work, and then there's the way that it actually works. [laughs]\n\nCHARITY: Oh my God.\n\nVICTORIA: Right?\n\nCHARITY: Yes. It's so much that.\n\nVICTORIA: Maybe you can tell us just a little bit more about, like, what is observability? Or how would you explain that to someone who isn't necessarily in it every day?\n\nCHARITY: I would explain it; I mean, it depends on who your audience is, of course. But I would explain it like engineers spend all day in their IDEs. And they come to believe that that's what software is. But software is not lines of code. Software is those lines of code running in production with real users using it. That's when software becomes real. \n\nAnd, for too long, we've treated like that, like, an entirely different...well, it's written. [laughs] You know, for launch, I was like, well, it's ops' problem, as the meme says. But we haven't really gotten to a point yet where...I feel like when you're developing with observability; you should be instrumenting your code as you go with an eye towards your future self. How am I going to know if this is working or not? How am I going to know if this breaks?\n\nAnd when you deploy it, you should then go and look at your code in production and look at it through the lens of the telemetry that you just wrote and ask yourself, is it doing what I expected it to? Does anything else look weird? Because the cost of finding and fixing bugs goes up exponentially from the moment that you write them. It's like you type a bug; you backspace. Cool, good for you. That's the fastest you can fix it. The next fastest is if you find it when you're running tests. But tests are only ever going to find the things you could predict were going to fail or that have already failed. \n\nThe first real opportunity that you have to see if your code really works or not is right after you've deployed it, but only if you've given yourself the telemetry to do so. Like, the idea of just merging your code, like walking out the door or merging your code and waiting to get paged or to get [laughs] escalated to this is madness. This should be such an artifact of the battle days when dev writes, and ops runs it. That doesn't work, right? \n\nLike, in the beginning, we had software engineers who wrote code and ran that code in production, and that's how things should be. You should be writing code and running code in production. And the reason I think we're starting to see that reality emerge again is because our systems have gotten so complicated. We kind of can't not because you can't really run your code as a black box anymore. You can't ignore what's on the inside. You have to be able to look at the code in order to be able to run it effectively. \n\nAnd conversely, I don't think you could develop good code unless you're constantly exposing yourself to the consequences of that code. It lets you know when it breaks, that whole feedback loop that completely severed when we had dev versus ops. And we're slowly kind of knitting it together again. But, like, that's what's at the heart of that incredibly powerful feedback loop. It's the heart of all software engineering is, instrumenting your code and looking at it and asking yourself, is it doing what I expected it to do?\n\nWILL: That's really neat. You said you're a reliability engineer. What's your background? Tell me more about it because you're the CTO of Honeycomb. So you have some technical background. What does that look like?\n\nCHARITY: Yeah, well, I was a music major and then a serial dropout. I've never graduated from anything, ever. And then, I worked at startups in Silicon Valley. Nothing you'd ever...well, I worked at Linden Lab for a few years and some other places. \n\nBut honestly, the reason I started Honeycomb was because...so I worked at Parse. I was the infrastructure lead at Parse; rest in peace. It got acquired by Facebook. And when I was leaving Facebook, it was the only time in my life that I'd ever had a pedigree. Well, I've actually been an ops engineer my entire career. When I was leaving Facebook, I had VCs going, \"Would you like some money to do something? Because you're coming from Facebook, so you must be smart.\" \n\nOn the one hand, that was kind of offensive. And on the other hand, like, I kind of felt the obligation to just take the money and run, like, on behalf of all dropouts, of women, and queers everywhere. Just, you know, how often...am I ever going to get this chance again? No, I'm not. So, good.\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, I will accept your money. [laughs]\n\nCHARITY: Yeah, right?\n\nVICTORIA: I will take it. And I'm not surprised that you were a music major. I've met many, I would say, people who are active in social media about DevOps, and then it turns out they were a theater major, [laughs] or music, or something different. And they kind of naturally found their way.\n\nCHARITY: The whole ops SRE profession has historically been a real magnet for weirdo people, weird past, people who took very non-traditional. So it's always been about tinkering, just understanding systems. And there hasn't been this high bar for formal, you know, knowledge that you need just to get your first job. I feel like this is all changing. And it makes me kind of...I understand why it's changing, and it also makes me kind of sad.\n\nVICTORIA: So I think you have a quote about, you know, working on infrastructure teams that everything comes back to databases. \n\nCHARITY: [laughs]\n\nVICTORIA: I wonder if you could expand on that.\n\nCHARITY: I've been an accidental DBA my entire career. I just always seemed to be the one left holding the bag. [laughs] We were playing musical chairs. I just feel like, you know, as you're moving up the stack, you can get more and more reckless. As you move down the stack, the closer you get to, like, bits on disk, the more conservative you have to be, the more blast radius your mistakes could have. \n\nLike, shit changes all the time in JavaScript land. In database land, we're still doing CRUD operators, like, since Stonebreaker did it in the '70s. We're still doing very fundamental stuff. I love it, though, because, I don't know, it's such a capsule of computers at large, which is just that people have no idea how much shit breaks. [laughs] Stuff breaks all the time. And the beauty of it is that we keep going. It's not that things don't break. You have no idea how much stuff is broken in your stack right now. But we find ways to resolve it after the fact. \n\nI just think that data is so fascinating because it has so much gravity. I don't know, I could keep going, but I feel like you get the point. I just think it's really fun. I think danger is fun, I think. It might not surprise you to learn that I, too, was diagnosed with ADHD in the past couple of years. I feel like this is another strand that most DevOps, SRE types have in common, which is just [laughs] highly motivated in a good way by panic. [laughs]\n\nWILL: I love that you said you love danger because I feel like that is right in your wheelhouse. Like, you have to love danger to be in that field because it's predictable. You're the one that's coming in and putting out the fires when everyone sometimes they're running for the window. Like you said, like, you got caught holding the bag. So that's really neat. \n\nThis is a big question for me, especially for being an engineer, a dev, do you find that product and design teams understand and see the value in SRE?\n\nCHARITY: Oooh. These types of cultural questions are always so difficult for me to gauge whether or not my sample is representative of the larger population. Because, in my experience, you know, ops teams typically rule the roost, like, they get final say over everything. But I know that that's not typically true. Like, throughout the industry, like, ops teams kind of have a history of being kind of kicked around.\n\nI think that they do see the value because everybody can see when it breaks. But I think that they mostly see the value when it breaks. I think that it takes a rare, farsighted product team to be able to consent to giving, like, investments all along in the kinds of improvements that will pay off later on instead of just pouring all of the resources into fast fixes and features and feature, feature, feature. \n\nAnd then, of course, you know, you slowly grind to a halt as a team because you're just amassing surface area. You're not paying down your tech debt. And I think it's not always clear to product and design leaders how to make those investments in a way that actually benefits them instead of it just being a cost center. You know, it's just something that's always a break on them instead of actually enabling them to move faster.\n\nWILL: Yeah, yeah. And I can definitely see that being an engineer dev. I'm going to change it a little bit. And I'm going to ask, Victoria, since you're the managing director of that team, how do you feel about that question? Do you feel that's the same thing, or what's your observation of that?\n\nVICTORIA: I think Charity is, like, spot on because it does depend on the type of organization that you're working in, the hierarchy, and who gets priority over budget and things like that. And so the interesting thought for me coming from federal IT organizations into more commercial and startup organizations is that there is a little bit of a disconnect. And we started to ask our designers and developers like, \"Well, have you thought much about, like, what happens when this fails?\" [laughs] And especially --\n\nCHARITY: Great question.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, like, when you're dealing with, like, healthcare startups or with bank startups and really thinking through all the ways it could go wrong. Is it a new pathway? Which I think is exciting for a lot of people. And I'm curious, too, Charity, like with Honeycomb, was there things that surprised you in your journey of discovery about, you know, building a company about observability and what people wanted out of this space? \n\nCHARITY: Oh my goodness. [laughs] Was anything not a surprise? I mean, [laughs] yeah, absolutely. You're a director of what team?\n\nVICTORIA: I'm a managing director of our Mission Control team. \n\nCHARITY: Oooh.\n\nVICTORIA: Which is our platform engineering, and DevOps, and SRE team.\n\nCHARITY: Now, does your platform engineering team have product managers?\n\nVICTORIA: I think it might be me. [laughs]\n\nCHARITY: Aha.\n\nVICTORIA: It might be me. And we have a team lead, and our CTO is actually our acting development director. So he's really leading the development of that project platform.\n\nCHARITY: When I was in New York the last couple of days, I just gave a talk at KubeCon about the Perils, Pitfalls, and Pratfalls of Platform Engineering, just talking about all of the ways that platform teams accidentally steer themselves into the ditch. \n\nOne of the biggest mistakes that people make in that situation is not running the platform team like a product team, you know, having a sort of, like, if we build it, they will come sort of a mentality towards the platform that they're building internally for their engineers, and not doing the things like, you know, discovery or finding out like, am I really building, you know, the most important thing, you know, that people need right now?\n\nAnd it's like, I didn't learn those skills as an engineer. Like, in the infrastructure land, we didn't learn how to work with product people. We didn't learn how to work with designers. And I feel like the biggest piece of career advice that I give, you know, people like me now, is learn how to work with product and like a product org.\n\nI'm curious, like, what you're observing in your realm when it comes to this stuff. Like, how much like a product org do you work? \n\nVICTORIA: Oh, I agree 100%. So I've actually been interested in applying our platform project to the thoughtbot Incubator Program. [laughs] \n\nCHARITY: Mmm.\n\nVICTORIA: So they have this method for doing market strategy, and user interviews, and all of that...exactly what you're saying, like, run it like a product. So I want them to help me with it. [laughs]\n\nCHARITY: Nice.\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, because I am also a managing director, and so we're managing a team and building business. And we also have this product or this open-source project, really. It's not...we don't necessarily want to be prescriptive with how we, as thoughtbot, tell people how to build their platforms. So with every client, we do a deep dive to see how is their dev team actually working? What are the pain points? What are the things we can do based on, like, you know, this collection of tools and knowledge that we have on what's worked for past clients that makes the most sense for them? \n\nSo, in that way, I think it is very customer-focused [laughs], right? And that's the motto we want to keep with. And I have been on other project teams where we just try to reproduce what worked for one client and to make that a product. And it doesn't always work [laughs] because of what you're saying. Like, you have to really...and especially, I think that just the diversity of the systems that we are building and have been built is kind of, like, breathtaking [laughs], you know. \n\nCHARITY: Yeah. [chuckles]\n\nVICTORIA: I'm sure you have some familiarity with that. \n\nCHARITY: [laughs]\n\nVICTORIA: But what did you really find in the market that worked for you right away, like, was, like, the problem that you were able to solve and start building within your business?\n\nCHARITY: We did everything all wrong. So I had had this experience at Facebook, which, you know, at Parse, you know, we had all these reliability issues because of the architecture. What we were building was just fundamentally...as soon as any customer got big, like, they would take up all the resources in this shared, you know, tenancy thing, and the whole platform would go down. And it was so frustrating. And we were working on a rewrite and everything. Like, it was professionally humiliating for me as a reliability engineer to have a platform this bad at reliability. \n\nAnd part of the issue was that you know, we had a million mobile apps, and it was a different app every time, different application...the iTunes Store, like, top five or something. And so the previous generation of tools and strategies like building dashboards and doing retros and being like, well, I'll make a dashboard so that I can find this problem next time immediately, like, just went out the window. Like, none of them would work because they were always about the last battle. And it was always something new. \n\nAnd at one point, we started getting some datasets into this tool at Facebook called Scuba. It was butt ugly. Like, it was aggressively hostile to users. But it let us do one thing really well, which was slice and dice high cardinality dimensions in near real-time. And having the ability to do that to, like, break down by user ID, which is not possible with, you know, I don't know how familiar --\n\nI'll briefly describe high cardinality. So imagine you have a collection of 100 million users. And the highest possible cardinality would be a unique ID because, you know, social security number, very high cardinality. And something much lower cardinality would be like inches of height. And all of metrics and dashboards are oriented around low cardinality dimensions. If you have more than a couple hundred hosts, you can no longer tag your metrics with a host ID. It just falls apart. So being able to break down by, like, you know, one of a million app IDs.\n\nIt took...the amount of time it took for us to identify and find these brand-new problems, it dropped like a rock, like, from hours of opening it. We never even solved a lot of the problems that we saw. We just recovered. We moved on [laughs] with our day, dropped from that to, like, seconds or minutes. Like, it wasn't even an engineering problem anymore. It was like a support problem, you know, you just go click, click, click, click, click, oh, there it is. Just follow the trail of breadcrumbs.\n\nThat made such an impression on me. And when I was leaving, I was just like, I can't go back to not having something like this. I was so much less powerful as an engineer. It's just, like, it's unthinkable. So when we started Honeycomb, we were just, like, we went hands down, and we started building. We didn't want to write a database. We had to write a database because there was nothing out there that could do this. \n\nAnd we spent the first year or two not even really talking to customers. When we did talk to customers, I would tell our engineers to ignore their feedback [laughs] because they were all telling us they wanted better metrics. And we're like, no, we're not doing metrics. \n\nThe first thing that we found we could kind of connect to real problems that people were looking for was that it was high cardinality. There were a few, not many; there were a few engineers out there Googling for high cardinality metrics. And those engineers found us and became our earliest customers because we were able to do breathtaking...from their perspective, they were like, we've been told this is impossible. We've been told that this can't be done. \n\nThings like Intercom was able to start tagging other requests with, like, app ID and customer ID. And immediately started noticing things like, oh, this database that we were just about to have to, like, spend six months sharding and extending, oh, it turns out 80% of the queries in flight to this database are all coming from one customer who is paying us $200 a month, so maybe we shouldn't [laughs] do that engineering labor. Maybe we should just, you know, throttle this guy who is only paying us 200 bucks a month. Or just all these things you can't actually see until you can use this very, very special tool. And then once you can see that...\n\nSo, like, our first customers became rabid fans and vouched for us to investors, and this still blows people's minds to this day. It's an incredibly difficult thing to explain and describe to people, but once they see it on their own data, it clicks because everybody's run into this problem before, and it's really frustrating.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that's super interesting and a great example to illustrate that point of just, like, not really knowing what's going on in your system. And, you know, you mentioned just, like, certainly at scale, that's when you really, really need to have [laughs] data and insight into your systems.\n\nCHARITY: Yeah.\n\nVICTORIA: But one question I get a lot is, like, at what scale do you actually need to start worrying about SRE? [laughs] Which --\n\nCHARITY: SRE?\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I'll let you answer that. Yeah, site reliability or even things like...like, everything under that umbrella like observability, like, you know, putting in monitoring and tracing and all this stuff. Sometimes people are just like, well, when do I actually have to care? [laughs]\n\nCHARITY: I recognize this is, you know, coming from somebody who does this for a living, so, like, people can write it off all they want. But, like, the idea of developing without observability is just sad to me, like, from day one. This is not a tax. It's not something that slows you down or makes your lives worse. It's something that makes your lives better from day one. It helps you move more quickly, with more confidence. It helps you not make as many mistakes. It helps you...\n\nLike, most people are used to interacting with their systems, which are just like flaming hairballs under their bed. Nobody has ever understood these systems. They certainly don't understand them. And every day, they ship more code that they don't understand, create systems that they've never understood. And then an alarm goes off, and everybody just, like, braces for impact because they don't understand them. \n\nThis is not the inevitable end state of computing. It doesn't have to be like this. You can have systems that are well-understood, that are tractable, that you could...it's just...it's so sad to me that people are like, oh God, when do I have to add telemetry? And I'm just like, how do you write software without telemetry? How do you have any confidence that the work you're doing is what you thought you were doing? You know, I just...\n\nAnd, of course, if you're waiting to tack it on later, of course, it's not going to be as useful because you're trying to add telemetry for stuff you were writing weeks, or months, or years ago. The time to add it is while you're writing it. No one is ever going to understand your software as well as you do the moment that you're writing it. That's when you know your original intent. You know what you're trying to do. You know why you're trying to do it. You know what you tried that didn't work. You know, ultimately, what the most valuable pieces of data are. Why wouldn't you leave little breadcrumbs for yourself so that future you can find them? \n\nYou know, it's like...I just feel like this entire mental shift it can become just as much of a habit as like commenting your code or adding, you know, commenting in your pull request, you know. It becomes second nature, and reaching for it becomes second nature. You should have in your body a feeling of I'm not done until you've looked at your telemetry in production. That's the first moment that you can tell yourself, ah, yes, it probably does what I think it does, right?\n\nSo, like, this question it makes me sad. It gets me a little worked up because I feel like it's such a symptom of people who I know what their jobs are like based on that question, and it's not as good as it could be. Their jobs are much sadder and more confusing than it could be if they had a slightly different approach to telemetry. That's the observability bit. \n\nBut about SRE, very few ops engineers start companies, it seems, when I did, you know, I was one of three founding members. And the first thing I did was, of course, spin up an infrastructure and set up CI/CD and all this stuff. And I'm, like, feeling less useful than the others but, you know, doing my part. But that stuff that I spun up, we didn't have to hire an SRE for years, and when we did, it was pretty optional. And this is a system, you know, things trickle down, right? \n\nDoing things right from the beginning and having them be clear and well-understood, and efficient, we were able to do so much with so few people. You know, we were landing, you know, hundreds of thousand-dollar deals with people who thought we had hundreds of employees. We had 12 engineers for the first almost five years, just 12 engineers. But, like, almost all of the energy that they put into the world went into moving the business forward, not fighting with the system, or thrashing the system, or trying to figure out bugs, or trying to track down things that were just, like, impossible to figure out. We waste so much time as engineers by trying to add this stuff in later.\n\nSo the actual answer to your question is, like, if you aren't lucky enough to have an ops co-founder, is as soon as you have real users. You know, I've made a career out of basically being the first engineer to join from infrastructure when the software engineers are starting to have real customers. Like, at Parse, they brought me in when they were about to do their alpha release. And they're like, whoa, okay, I guess we better have someone who knows how to run things. \n\nAnd I came in, and I spent the next, you know, year or so just cleaning up shit that they had done, which wasn't terrible. But, you know, they just didn't really know what they were doing. So I kind of had to undo everything, redo it. And just the earlier, the better, right? It will pay off. \n\nNow, that said, there is a real risk of over-engineering early. Companies they don't fail because they innovated too quickly; let's put it that way. They fail because they couldn't focus. They couldn't connect with their customers. They couldn't do all these things. And so you really do want to do just enough to get you to the next place so that you can put most of your effort into making product for your customers. \n\nBut yeah, it's so much easier to set yourself up with auto-deployment so that every CI/CD run automatically deploys your code to production and just maintain as you grow. That is so easy compared to trying to take, you know, a long, slow, you know, leaky deploy process and turn it into one that could auto-deploy safely after every commit. So yeah, do it early. And then maintain is the easiest way in the world to do this stuff.\n\nMid-Roll Ad:\n\nAs life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust.\n\nWe provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what’s important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust.\n\nWe take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers.\n\nTake your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode.\n\nWILL: Correct me if I'm wrong, I think you said Facebook and mobile. Do you have, not experience with mobile but do you...does Honeycomb do anything in the mobile space? Because I feel like that portion is probably the most complicated for mobile, like, dealing with iOS and Android and everything that they're asking for. So...\n\nCHARITY: We don't have mobile stuff at Honeycomb. Parse was a mobile Backend as a Service. So I went straight from doing all mobile all the time to doing no mobile at all. I also went from doing databases all the time to doing, you know...it's good career advice typically to find a niche and then stay in it, and I have not followed that advice. [laughter] I've just jumped from...as soon as I'm good at something, I start doing something else.\n\nWILL: Let me ask you this, how come you don't see more mobile SRE or help in that area?\n\nCHARITY: I think that you see lots of SREs for mobile apps, but they're on the back-end side. They're on the server side. So it's just not as visible. But even if you've got, like, a stack that's entirely serverless, you still need SRE. \n\nBut I think that the model is really shifting. You know, it used to be you hired an SRE team or an ops team to carry the pager for you and to take the alerts and to, like, buffer everything, and nowadays, that's not the expectation. That's not what good companies do. You know, they set up systems for their software engineers to own their code in production. But they need help because they're not experts in this, and that's where SRE types come in. Is that your experience? \n\nWILL: Yeah, for the most part. Yeah, that is.\n\nCHARITY: Yeah, I think that's very healthy.\n\nVICTORIA: And I agree with that as well. And I'm going to take that clip of your reaction to that question about when you should start doing [laughter] observability and just play for everybody whenever someone asks [laughs] me that. I'm like, here's the answer. That's great.\n\nCHARITY: I think a good metaphor for that is like, if you're buying a house and taking out a loan, the more of a down payment you can put down upfront, the lower that your monthly payments are going to be for the rest of your...you amortize that out over the next 20-30 years. The more you can do that, the better your life is going to be because interest rates are a bitch.\n\nVICTORIA: It makes sense. And yeah, like, to your point earlier about when people actually do start to care about it is usually after something has broken in a traumatic way that can be really bad for your clients and, like, your legal [laughter] stance --\n\nCHARITY: That's true.\n\nVICTORIA: As a company.\n\nCHARITY: Facing stuff, yeah, is where people usually start to think about it. But, like, the less visible part, and I think almost the more important part is what it does to your velocity and your ability to execute internally. When you have a good, clean system that is well-tended that, you know, where the amount of time between when you're writing the code and when the code is in production, and you're looking at...when that is short and tight, like, no more than a couple of hours, like, it's a different job than if it takes you, like, days or weeks to deploy. Your changes get bashed up with other people's.\n\nAnd, you know, like, you enter, like, the software development death spiral where, you know, it takes a while. So your diffs get even bigger, so code review takes even longer, so it takes even longer. And then your changes are all getting bashed up. And, you know, now you need a team to run deploys and releases. And now you need an SRE team to do the firefighting. \n\nAnd, like, your systems are...the bigger it gets, the more complicated it gets, the more you're spending time just waiting on each other or switching contexts. You ever, like, see an app and been like, oh, that's a cool app? I wonder...they have 800 engineers at that company. And you're just like, what the hell are they all doing? Like, seriously, how does it take that many engineers to build this admittedly nice little product? \n\nI guarantee you it's because their internal hygiene is just terrible. It takes them too long to deploy things. They've forgotten what they've written by the time it's out, so nobody ever goes and looks at it. So it's just like, it's becoming a hairball under your bed. Nobody's looking at it. It's becoming more and more mysterious to you. \n\nLike, I have a rule of thumb which there's no mathematical science behind this, just experience. But it's a rule of thumb that says that if it takes you, you know, on the order of, say, a couple of hours tops to deploy your software, if it takes you that many engineers to build and own that product, well, if your deploys take on the order of days instead of hours, it will take you twice as many people [chuckles] to build and support that product. \n\nAnd if it takes you weeks to deploy that product, it will take you twice as many again; if anything, that is an underestimate because it actually goes up exponentially, not linearly. But, like, we are so wasteful when it comes to people's time. It is so much easier for managers to go, uh, we're overloaded. Let's hire more people. For some reason, you can always get headcount when you can't actually get the discipline to say no to things or the people to work on internal tools to, like, shrink that gap between when you've written it and when it's live. \n\nAnd just the waste, it just spirals out of control, man, and it's not good. And, you know, it should be such a fun, creative, fulfilling job where you spend your day solving puzzles for money and moving the business materially forward every day. And instead, how much of our time do we just sit here, like, twiddling our thumbs and waiting for the build to finish or waiting for code review [laughs] to get turned around? Or, you know, swapping projects and, like, trying to page all that context in your brain? Like, it's absurd, and this is not that hard of a problem to fix.\n\nVICTORIA: Engineering should be fun, and it should be dangerous. That's what [laughs] I'm getting out of this --\n\nCHARITY: It should be fun, and it should be dangerous. I love that.\n\nVICTORIA: Fun and dangerous. I like it. [laughs] And speaking of danger, I mean, maybe it's not dangerous, but what does success really look like for you at Honeycomb in the next six months or even in the next five years?\n\nCHARITY: I find it much more easier to answer what failure would look like.\n\nVICTORIA: You can answer that too if you like. [laughs]\n\nCHARITY: [laughs] What would success look like? I mean, obviously, I have no desire to ever go through another acquisition, and I don't want to go out of business. So it'd be nice not to do either of those things, which means since we've taken VC money, IPO would be nice eventually. \n\nBut, like, ultimately, like, what motivates Christine and me and our entire company really is just, you know, we're engineers. We've felt this pain. We have seen that the world can be better. [laughs] We really just want to help, you know, move engineering into the current decade.\n\nI feel like there are so many teams out there who hear me talk about this stuff. And they listen wistfully, and they're like, yeah, and they roll their eyes. They're like, yeah, you work in Silicon Valley, or yeah, but you work at a startup, or yeah...they have all these reasons why they don't get nice things. \n\nWe're just not good enough engineers is the one that breaks my heart the most because it's not true. Like, it has nothing to do...it has almost nothing to do with how good of an engineer you are. You have to be so much better of an engineer to deal with a giant hairball than with software that gets deployed, you know, within the hour that you can just go look at and see if it's working or not. \n\nI want this to go mainstream. I want people...I want engineers to just have a better time at work. And I want people to succeed at what they're doing. And just...the more we can bring that kind of change to more and more people, the more successful I will feel.\n\nVICTORIA: I really like that. And I think it's great. And it also makes me think I find that people who work in the DevOps space have a certain type of mentality sometimes, [laughs] like, it's about the greater community and, like, just making being at work better. And I also think it maybe makes you more willing to admit your failures [laughs] like you were earlier, right?\n\nCHARITY: Probably.\n\nVICTORIA: That's part of the culture. It's like, well, we messed up. [laughs] We broke stuff, and we're going to learn from it. \n\nCHARITY: It's healthy. I'm trying to institute a rule where at all hands when we're doing different organizations giving an update every two weeks, where we talk two-thirds about our successes and things that worked great and one-third about things that just didn't work. Like, I think we could all stand to talk about our failures a lot more.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, makes it a lot less scary, I think [laughs], right?\n\nCHARITY: Yeah, yeah. It democratizes the feeling, and it genuinely...it makes me happy. It's like, that didn't work, great. Now we know not to do it. Of the infinite number of things that we could try, now we know something for real. I think it's exciting. And, I don't know, I think it's funny when things fail. And I think that if we can just laugh about it together...\n\nYou know, in every engineering org that I've ever worked at, out of all the teams, the ops types teams have always been the ones that are the most tightly bonded. They have this real, like, Band of Brothers type of sentiment. And I think it's because, you know, we've historically endured most of the pain. [laughs] But, like, that sense of, like, it's us against the system, that there is hilarity in failure. And, at the end of the day, we're all just monkeys, like, poking at electrical sockets is, I think...I think it's healthy. [laughs]\n\nWILL: That's really neat. I love it. This is one of my favorite questions. What advice would you give yourself if you could go back in time?\n\nCHARITY: I don't know. I think I'd just give myself a thumbs up and go; it's going to be all right. I don't know; I wouldn't... I don't think that I would try to alter the time continuum [laughs] in any way. But I had a lot of anxiety when I was younger about going to hell and all this stuff. And so I think...but anything I said to my future self, I wouldn't have believed anyway. So yeah, I respectfully decline the offer.\n\nVICTORIA: That's fair. I mean, I think about that a lot too actually, like, I sometimes think like, well, if I could go back to myself a year ago and just --\n\nCHARITY: Yeah. I would look at me like I was stupid.\n\n[laughter]\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. It reminds me a little bit about what you said, though, like, doing SRE and everything upfront or the observability pieces and building it correctly in a way you can deploy fastly is like a gift to your future self. [laughs]\n\nCHARITY: Yes, it is, with a bow. Yes, exactly.\n\nVICTORIA: There you go. Well, all right. I think we are about ready to wrap up. Is there anything you would like to promote specifically?\n\nCHARITY: We just launched this really cool little thing at Honeycomb. And you won't often hear me say the words cool and AI in proximity to each other, but we just launched this really dope little thing. It's a tool for using natural language to ask questions of your telemetry. So, if you just deployed something and you want to know, like, what's slow or did anything change, you can just ask it using English, and it does a ChatGPT thing and generates the right graphs for you. It's pretty sweet.\n\nVICTORIA: That's really cool. So, if you have Honeycomb set up and working in your system and then you can just ask the little chatbot, \"Hey, what's going on here?\"\n\nCHARITY: Yeah. What's the slowest endpoint? And it'll just tell you, which is great because I feel like I do not think graphically at all. My brain just really doesn't. So I have never been the person who's, like, creating dashboards or graphs. My friend Ben Hartshorne works with me, and he'll make the dashboards. And then I get up in the morning, and I bookmark them. And so we're sort of symbiotic. \n\nBut everyone can tweak a query, right? Once you have something that you know is, like, within spitting distance as the data you want, anyone can tweak it, but composing is really hard. So I feel like this really helps you get over that initial hurdle of, like, er, what do I break down by? What do I group by? What are the field names? You just ask it the question, and then you've got to click, click, click, and, like, get exactly what you want out of it. I think it's, like, a game changer.\n\nVICTORIA: That sounds extremely cool. And we will certainly link to it in our show notes today. Thank you so much for being with us and spending the time, Charity. \n\nCHARITY: Yeah, this was really fun. \n\nVICTORIA: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. \n\nWILL: And you could find me on Twitter @will23larry. \n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. \n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.Special Guest: Charity Majors.Sponsored By:thoughtbot: As life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust.\r\n\r\nWe provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what’s important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust.\r\n\r\nWe take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers.\r\n\r\nTake your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at: url tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode.","content_html":"Charity Majors is Co-Founder and CTO of Honeycomb, which provides full-stack observability that enables engineers to deeply understand and debug production software together.
\n\nVictoria and Will talk to Charity about observability, her technical background and decision to start Honeycomb.io, thoughts about the whole ops SRE profession, and things that surprised her along her journey of building a company around observability as a concept.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido.
\n\nWILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. And with us today is Charity Majors, Co-Founder and CTO of Honeycomb, which provides full-stack observability that enables engineers to deeply understand and debug production software together. Charity, thank you for joining us. How are you doing?
\n\nCHARITY: Thanks for having me. I'm a little bit crunchy from a [laughs] long flight this morning. But I'm very happy to be home in San Francisco and happy to be talking to you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. And, Charity, I looked at your profile and noticed that you're a fan of whiskey. And I thought I might ask you just to get us started here, like, what's your favorite brand?
\n\nCHARITY: Oh, goodness, that's like asking me to choose my favorite child if I had children. [laughter]. You know, I used to really be into the peaty scotches, the Islays, in particular. But lately, I've been more of a bourbon kick. Of course, everybody loves Pappy Van Winkle, George T. Stagg; impossible to find now, but it's so, so good. You know, if it's high-proof and single barrel, I will probably drink it.
\n\nVICTORIA: That sounds great. Yeah, I tend to have the same approach. And, like, people ask me if I like it, and I like all of them. [laughter] I don't [inaudible 01:21] that I didn't like. [laughs]
\n\nCHARITY: [inaudible 01:23] tongue sting? Then I'm in. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, [inaudible 01:26].
\n\nWILL: See, I'm the opposite. I want something smooth. I'm a fruity drink type of guy. I'm just going, to be honest.
\n\nCHARITY: There's no shame in that.
\n\nWILL: No shame here. [laughs] Give me a margarita, and you have a happy Will for life. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: We'll have to get you to come out and visit San Diego for some margaritas, Will. That's --
\n\nCHARITY: Oh yeah.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, it's the place to be. Yeah, we do more of a bourbon drink in our house, like bourbon soda. That's usually what we make, like, my own custom simple syrup, and mix it with a little bourbon and soda water. And that's what we do for a cool down at the end of the day sometimes, yeah. Well, awesome.
\n\nLet's see. So, Charity, why don't you just tell me a little more about Honeycomb? What is it?
\n\nCHARITY: Well, it's a startup that hasn't failed yet, so... [laughs] to my own shock. [laughs] We're still around seven and a half years in. And I say that just so much joking. Like, you're not really supposed to say this as a founder, but, like, I 100% thought we were going to fail from the beginning. But we haven't yet, and we just got more money. So we'll be around for a while.
\n\nWe kind of pioneered the whole concept of observability, which now doesn't really mean anything at all. Everybody and their mother is like, well, I do observability, too. But back when we started talking about it, it was kind of a little bit revolutionary, I guess in that, you know, we started talking about how important it is to have high cardinality data in your systems. You really can't debug without it.
\n\nAnd the fact that our systems are getting just astronomically more complex, and yet, we're still trying to debug it with these tools based on, you know, the metric data type [laughs] defined since the '70s when space was incredibly rare and expensive. And now space is incredibly cheap, but we should be wasteful with it so we can understand our incredibly complex systems. So that's us.
\n\nWe really try to empower software engineers to own their own code in production. For a long time, it was like, all of the tools for you to understand your software were really written for low-level ops people because they speak the language of, like, RAM, and disks, and CPU, which you shouldn't have to understand that in order to be able to understand I just deployed something, what went wrong?
\n\nWILL: I love the honesty because there are so many founders that I'll talk to, and I'm like, okay, you're very successful. But did you really expect this to be what it is today? Did you really expect to survive? Because, like, just some of their ideas, I'm like, it's brilliant, but if I was with you back in the day, I'd be like, it ain't going to work. It's not going to work. [laughs]
\n\nCHARITY: Yeah. And I feel like the VC culture really encourages delusion, just, like, self-delusion, like, this delusive thinking. You're supposed to, like, broadcast just, like, rock-solid confidence in yourself and your ideas at all time. And I think that only sociopaths do that. [laughs] I don't want to work for anyone who's that confident in themselves or their idea.
\n\nBecause I'm showing my own stripes, I guess, you know, I'm a reliability engineer. I wake up in the morning; I'm like, what's wrong with the day? That's just how my brain works. But I feel like I would rather work with people who are constantly scanning the horizon and being like, okay, what's likely to kill us today? Instead of people who are just like, I am right. [laughs] You know?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And I can relate that back to observability by thinking how, you know, you can have an idea about how your system is supposed to work, and then there's the way that it actually works. [laughs]
\n\nCHARITY: Oh my God.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right?
\n\nCHARITY: Yes. It's so much that.
\n\nVICTORIA: Maybe you can tell us just a little bit more about, like, what is observability? Or how would you explain that to someone who isn't necessarily in it every day?
\n\nCHARITY: I would explain it; I mean, it depends on who your audience is, of course. But I would explain it like engineers spend all day in their IDEs. And they come to believe that that's what software is. But software is not lines of code. Software is those lines of code running in production with real users using it. That's when software becomes real.
\n\nAnd, for too long, we've treated like that, like, an entirely different...well, it's written. [laughs] You know, for launch, I was like, well, it's ops' problem, as the meme says. But we haven't really gotten to a point yet where...I feel like when you're developing with observability; you should be instrumenting your code as you go with an eye towards your future self. How am I going to know if this is working or not? How am I going to know if this breaks?
\n\nAnd when you deploy it, you should then go and look at your code in production and look at it through the lens of the telemetry that you just wrote and ask yourself, is it doing what I expected it to? Does anything else look weird? Because the cost of finding and fixing bugs goes up exponentially from the moment that you write them. It's like you type a bug; you backspace. Cool, good for you. That's the fastest you can fix it. The next fastest is if you find it when you're running tests. But tests are only ever going to find the things you could predict were going to fail or that have already failed.
\n\nThe first real opportunity that you have to see if your code really works or not is right after you've deployed it, but only if you've given yourself the telemetry to do so. Like, the idea of just merging your code, like walking out the door or merging your code and waiting to get paged or to get [laughs] escalated to this is madness. This should be such an artifact of the battle days when dev writes, and ops runs it. That doesn't work, right?
\n\nLike, in the beginning, we had software engineers who wrote code and ran that code in production, and that's how things should be. You should be writing code and running code in production. And the reason I think we're starting to see that reality emerge again is because our systems have gotten so complicated. We kind of can't not because you can't really run your code as a black box anymore. You can't ignore what's on the inside. You have to be able to look at the code in order to be able to run it effectively.
\n\nAnd conversely, I don't think you could develop good code unless you're constantly exposing yourself to the consequences of that code. It lets you know when it breaks, that whole feedback loop that completely severed when we had dev versus ops. And we're slowly kind of knitting it together again. But, like, that's what's at the heart of that incredibly powerful feedback loop. It's the heart of all software engineering is, instrumenting your code and looking at it and asking yourself, is it doing what I expected it to do?
\n\nWILL: That's really neat. You said you're a reliability engineer. What's your background? Tell me more about it because you're the CTO of Honeycomb. So you have some technical background. What does that look like?
\n\nCHARITY: Yeah, well, I was a music major and then a serial dropout. I've never graduated from anything, ever. And then, I worked at startups in Silicon Valley. Nothing you'd ever...well, I worked at Linden Lab for a few years and some other places.
\n\nBut honestly, the reason I started Honeycomb was because...so I worked at Parse. I was the infrastructure lead at Parse; rest in peace. It got acquired by Facebook. And when I was leaving Facebook, it was the only time in my life that I'd ever had a pedigree. Well, I've actually been an ops engineer my entire career. When I was leaving Facebook, I had VCs going, "Would you like some money to do something? Because you're coming from Facebook, so you must be smart."
\n\nOn the one hand, that was kind of offensive. And on the other hand, like, I kind of felt the obligation to just take the money and run, like, on behalf of all dropouts, of women, and queers everywhere. Just, you know, how often...am I ever going to get this chance again? No, I'm not. So, good.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, I will accept your money. [laughs]
\n\nCHARITY: Yeah, right?
\n\nVICTORIA: I will take it. And I'm not surprised that you were a music major. I've met many, I would say, people who are active in social media about DevOps, and then it turns out they were a theater major, [laughs] or music, or something different. And they kind of naturally found their way.
\n\nCHARITY: The whole ops SRE profession has historically been a real magnet for weirdo people, weird past, people who took very non-traditional. So it's always been about tinkering, just understanding systems. And there hasn't been this high bar for formal, you know, knowledge that you need just to get your first job. I feel like this is all changing. And it makes me kind of...I understand why it's changing, and it also makes me kind of sad.
\n\nVICTORIA: So I think you have a quote about, you know, working on infrastructure teams that everything comes back to databases.
\n\nCHARITY: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: I wonder if you could expand on that.
\n\nCHARITY: I've been an accidental DBA my entire career. I just always seemed to be the one left holding the bag. [laughs] We were playing musical chairs. I just feel like, you know, as you're moving up the stack, you can get more and more reckless. As you move down the stack, the closer you get to, like, bits on disk, the more conservative you have to be, the more blast radius your mistakes could have.
\n\nLike, shit changes all the time in JavaScript land. In database land, we're still doing CRUD operators, like, since Stonebreaker did it in the '70s. We're still doing very fundamental stuff. I love it, though, because, I don't know, it's such a capsule of computers at large, which is just that people have no idea how much shit breaks. [laughs] Stuff breaks all the time. And the beauty of it is that we keep going. It's not that things don't break. You have no idea how much stuff is broken in your stack right now. But we find ways to resolve it after the fact.
\n\nI just think that data is so fascinating because it has so much gravity. I don't know, I could keep going, but I feel like you get the point. I just think it's really fun. I think danger is fun, I think. It might not surprise you to learn that I, too, was diagnosed with ADHD in the past couple of years. I feel like this is another strand that most DevOps, SRE types have in common, which is just [laughs] highly motivated in a good way by panic. [laughs]
\n\nWILL: I love that you said you love danger because I feel like that is right in your wheelhouse. Like, you have to love danger to be in that field because it's predictable. You're the one that's coming in and putting out the fires when everyone sometimes they're running for the window. Like you said, like, you got caught holding the bag. So that's really neat.
\n\nThis is a big question for me, especially for being an engineer, a dev, do you find that product and design teams understand and see the value in SRE?
\n\nCHARITY: Oooh. These types of cultural questions are always so difficult for me to gauge whether or not my sample is representative of the larger population. Because, in my experience, you know, ops teams typically rule the roost, like, they get final say over everything. But I know that that's not typically true. Like, throughout the industry, like, ops teams kind of have a history of being kind of kicked around.
\n\nI think that they do see the value because everybody can see when it breaks. But I think that they mostly see the value when it breaks. I think that it takes a rare, farsighted product team to be able to consent to giving, like, investments all along in the kinds of improvements that will pay off later on instead of just pouring all of the resources into fast fixes and features and feature, feature, feature.
\n\nAnd then, of course, you know, you slowly grind to a halt as a team because you're just amassing surface area. You're not paying down your tech debt. And I think it's not always clear to product and design leaders how to make those investments in a way that actually benefits them instead of it just being a cost center. You know, it's just something that's always a break on them instead of actually enabling them to move faster.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, yeah. And I can definitely see that being an engineer dev. I'm going to change it a little bit. And I'm going to ask, Victoria, since you're the managing director of that team, how do you feel about that question? Do you feel that's the same thing, or what's your observation of that?
\n\nVICTORIA: I think Charity is, like, spot on because it does depend on the type of organization that you're working in, the hierarchy, and who gets priority over budget and things like that. And so the interesting thought for me coming from federal IT organizations into more commercial and startup organizations is that there is a little bit of a disconnect. And we started to ask our designers and developers like, "Well, have you thought much about, like, what happens when this fails?" [laughs] And especially --
\n\nCHARITY: Great question.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, like, when you're dealing with, like, healthcare startups or with bank startups and really thinking through all the ways it could go wrong. Is it a new pathway? Which I think is exciting for a lot of people. And I'm curious, too, Charity, like with Honeycomb, was there things that surprised you in your journey of discovery about, you know, building a company about observability and what people wanted out of this space?
\n\nCHARITY: Oh my goodness. [laughs] Was anything not a surprise? I mean, [laughs] yeah, absolutely. You're a director of what team?
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm a managing director of our Mission Control team.
\n\nCHARITY: Oooh.
\n\nVICTORIA: Which is our platform engineering, and DevOps, and SRE team.
\n\nCHARITY: Now, does your platform engineering team have product managers?
\n\nVICTORIA: I think it might be me. [laughs]
\n\nCHARITY: Aha.
\n\nVICTORIA: It might be me. And we have a team lead, and our CTO is actually our acting development director. So he's really leading the development of that project platform.
\n\nCHARITY: When I was in New York the last couple of days, I just gave a talk at KubeCon about the Perils, Pitfalls, and Pratfalls of Platform Engineering, just talking about all of the ways that platform teams accidentally steer themselves into the ditch.
\n\nOne of the biggest mistakes that people make in that situation is not running the platform team like a product team, you know, having a sort of, like, if we build it, they will come sort of a mentality towards the platform that they're building internally for their engineers, and not doing the things like, you know, discovery or finding out like, am I really building, you know, the most important thing, you know, that people need right now?
\n\nAnd it's like, I didn't learn those skills as an engineer. Like, in the infrastructure land, we didn't learn how to work with product people. We didn't learn how to work with designers. And I feel like the biggest piece of career advice that I give, you know, people like me now, is learn how to work with product and like a product org.
\n\nI'm curious, like, what you're observing in your realm when it comes to this stuff. Like, how much like a product org do you work?
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, I agree 100%. So I've actually been interested in applying our platform project to the thoughtbot Incubator Program. [laughs]
\n\nCHARITY: Mmm.
\n\nVICTORIA: So they have this method for doing market strategy, and user interviews, and all of that...exactly what you're saying, like, run it like a product. So I want them to help me with it. [laughs]
\n\nCHARITY: Nice.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, because I am also a managing director, and so we're managing a team and building business. And we also have this product or this open-source project, really. It's not...we don't necessarily want to be prescriptive with how we, as thoughtbot, tell people how to build their platforms. So with every client, we do a deep dive to see how is their dev team actually working? What are the pain points? What are the things we can do based on, like, you know, this collection of tools and knowledge that we have on what's worked for past clients that makes the most sense for them?
\n\nSo, in that way, I think it is very customer-focused [laughs], right? And that's the motto we want to keep with. And I have been on other project teams where we just try to reproduce what worked for one client and to make that a product. And it doesn't always work [laughs] because of what you're saying. Like, you have to really...and especially, I think that just the diversity of the systems that we are building and have been built is kind of, like, breathtaking [laughs], you know.
\n\nCHARITY: Yeah. [chuckles]
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm sure you have some familiarity with that.
\n\nCHARITY: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: But what did you really find in the market that worked for you right away, like, was, like, the problem that you were able to solve and start building within your business?
\n\nCHARITY: We did everything all wrong. So I had had this experience at Facebook, which, you know, at Parse, you know, we had all these reliability issues because of the architecture. What we were building was just fundamentally...as soon as any customer got big, like, they would take up all the resources in this shared, you know, tenancy thing, and the whole platform would go down. And it was so frustrating. And we were working on a rewrite and everything. Like, it was professionally humiliating for me as a reliability engineer to have a platform this bad at reliability.
\n\nAnd part of the issue was that you know, we had a million mobile apps, and it was a different app every time, different application...the iTunes Store, like, top five or something. And so the previous generation of tools and strategies like building dashboards and doing retros and being like, well, I'll make a dashboard so that I can find this problem next time immediately, like, just went out the window. Like, none of them would work because they were always about the last battle. And it was always something new.
\n\nAnd at one point, we started getting some datasets into this tool at Facebook called Scuba. It was butt ugly. Like, it was aggressively hostile to users. But it let us do one thing really well, which was slice and dice high cardinality dimensions in near real-time. And having the ability to do that to, like, break down by user ID, which is not possible with, you know, I don't know how familiar --
\n\nI'll briefly describe high cardinality. So imagine you have a collection of 100 million users. And the highest possible cardinality would be a unique ID because, you know, social security number, very high cardinality. And something much lower cardinality would be like inches of height. And all of metrics and dashboards are oriented around low cardinality dimensions. If you have more than a couple hundred hosts, you can no longer tag your metrics with a host ID. It just falls apart. So being able to break down by, like, you know, one of a million app IDs.
\n\nIt took...the amount of time it took for us to identify and find these brand-new problems, it dropped like a rock, like, from hours of opening it. We never even solved a lot of the problems that we saw. We just recovered. We moved on [laughs] with our day, dropped from that to, like, seconds or minutes. Like, it wasn't even an engineering problem anymore. It was like a support problem, you know, you just go click, click, click, click, click, oh, there it is. Just follow the trail of breadcrumbs.
\n\nThat made such an impression on me. And when I was leaving, I was just like, I can't go back to not having something like this. I was so much less powerful as an engineer. It's just, like, it's unthinkable. So when we started Honeycomb, we were just, like, we went hands down, and we started building. We didn't want to write a database. We had to write a database because there was nothing out there that could do this.
\n\nAnd we spent the first year or two not even really talking to customers. When we did talk to customers, I would tell our engineers to ignore their feedback [laughs] because they were all telling us they wanted better metrics. And we're like, no, we're not doing metrics.
\n\nThe first thing that we found we could kind of connect to real problems that people were looking for was that it was high cardinality. There were a few, not many; there were a few engineers out there Googling for high cardinality metrics. And those engineers found us and became our earliest customers because we were able to do breathtaking...from their perspective, they were like, we've been told this is impossible. We've been told that this can't be done.
\n\nThings like Intercom was able to start tagging other requests with, like, app ID and customer ID. And immediately started noticing things like, oh, this database that we were just about to have to, like, spend six months sharding and extending, oh, it turns out 80% of the queries in flight to this database are all coming from one customer who is paying us $200 a month, so maybe we shouldn't [laughs] do that engineering labor. Maybe we should just, you know, throttle this guy who is only paying us 200 bucks a month. Or just all these things you can't actually see until you can use this very, very special tool. And then once you can see that...
\n\nSo, like, our first customers became rabid fans and vouched for us to investors, and this still blows people's minds to this day. It's an incredibly difficult thing to explain and describe to people, but once they see it on their own data, it clicks because everybody's run into this problem before, and it's really frustrating.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that's super interesting and a great example to illustrate that point of just, like, not really knowing what's going on in your system. And, you know, you mentioned just, like, certainly at scale, that's when you really, really need to have [laughs] data and insight into your systems.
\n\nCHARITY: Yeah.
\n\nVICTORIA: But one question I get a lot is, like, at what scale do you actually need to start worrying about SRE? [laughs] Which --
\n\nCHARITY: SRE?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I'll let you answer that. Yeah, site reliability or even things like...like, everything under that umbrella like observability, like, you know, putting in monitoring and tracing and all this stuff. Sometimes people are just like, well, when do I actually have to care? [laughs]
\n\nCHARITY: I recognize this is, you know, coming from somebody who does this for a living, so, like, people can write it off all they want. But, like, the idea of developing without observability is just sad to me, like, from day one. This is not a tax. It's not something that slows you down or makes your lives worse. It's something that makes your lives better from day one. It helps you move more quickly, with more confidence. It helps you not make as many mistakes. It helps you...
\n\nLike, most people are used to interacting with their systems, which are just like flaming hairballs under their bed. Nobody has ever understood these systems. They certainly don't understand them. And every day, they ship more code that they don't understand, create systems that they've never understood. And then an alarm goes off, and everybody just, like, braces for impact because they don't understand them.
\n\nThis is not the inevitable end state of computing. It doesn't have to be like this. You can have systems that are well-understood, that are tractable, that you could...it's just...it's so sad to me that people are like, oh God, when do I have to add telemetry? And I'm just like, how do you write software without telemetry? How do you have any confidence that the work you're doing is what you thought you were doing? You know, I just...
\n\nAnd, of course, if you're waiting to tack it on later, of course, it's not going to be as useful because you're trying to add telemetry for stuff you were writing weeks, or months, or years ago. The time to add it is while you're writing it. No one is ever going to understand your software as well as you do the moment that you're writing it. That's when you know your original intent. You know what you're trying to do. You know why you're trying to do it. You know what you tried that didn't work. You know, ultimately, what the most valuable pieces of data are. Why wouldn't you leave little breadcrumbs for yourself so that future you can find them?
\n\nYou know, it's like...I just feel like this entire mental shift it can become just as much of a habit as like commenting your code or adding, you know, commenting in your pull request, you know. It becomes second nature, and reaching for it becomes second nature. You should have in your body a feeling of I'm not done until you've looked at your telemetry in production. That's the first moment that you can tell yourself, ah, yes, it probably does what I think it does, right?
\n\nSo, like, this question it makes me sad. It gets me a little worked up because I feel like it's such a symptom of people who I know what their jobs are like based on that question, and it's not as good as it could be. Their jobs are much sadder and more confusing than it could be if they had a slightly different approach to telemetry. That's the observability bit.
\n\nBut about SRE, very few ops engineers start companies, it seems, when I did, you know, I was one of three founding members. And the first thing I did was, of course, spin up an infrastructure and set up CI/CD and all this stuff. And I'm, like, feeling less useful than the others but, you know, doing my part. But that stuff that I spun up, we didn't have to hire an SRE for years, and when we did, it was pretty optional. And this is a system, you know, things trickle down, right?
\n\nDoing things right from the beginning and having them be clear and well-understood, and efficient, we were able to do so much with so few people. You know, we were landing, you know, hundreds of thousand-dollar deals with people who thought we had hundreds of employees. We had 12 engineers for the first almost five years, just 12 engineers. But, like, almost all of the energy that they put into the world went into moving the business forward, not fighting with the system, or thrashing the system, or trying to figure out bugs, or trying to track down things that were just, like, impossible to figure out. We waste so much time as engineers by trying to add this stuff in later.
\n\nSo the actual answer to your question is, like, if you aren't lucky enough to have an ops co-founder, is as soon as you have real users. You know, I've made a career out of basically being the first engineer to join from infrastructure when the software engineers are starting to have real customers. Like, at Parse, they brought me in when they were about to do their alpha release. And they're like, whoa, okay, I guess we better have someone who knows how to run things.
\n\nAnd I came in, and I spent the next, you know, year or so just cleaning up shit that they had done, which wasn't terrible. But, you know, they just didn't really know what they were doing. So I kind of had to undo everything, redo it. And just the earlier, the better, right? It will pay off.
\n\nNow, that said, there is a real risk of over-engineering early. Companies they don't fail because they innovated too quickly; let's put it that way. They fail because they couldn't focus. They couldn't connect with their customers. They couldn't do all these things. And so you really do want to do just enough to get you to the next place so that you can put most of your effort into making product for your customers.
\n\nBut yeah, it's so much easier to set yourself up with auto-deployment so that every CI/CD run automatically deploys your code to production and just maintain as you grow. That is so easy compared to trying to take, you know, a long, slow, you know, leaky deploy process and turn it into one that could auto-deploy safely after every commit. So yeah, do it early. And then maintain is the easiest way in the world to do this stuff.
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\n\nWILL: Correct me if I'm wrong, I think you said Facebook and mobile. Do you have, not experience with mobile but do you...does Honeycomb do anything in the mobile space? Because I feel like that portion is probably the most complicated for mobile, like, dealing with iOS and Android and everything that they're asking for. So...
\n\nCHARITY: We don't have mobile stuff at Honeycomb. Parse was a mobile Backend as a Service. So I went straight from doing all mobile all the time to doing no mobile at all. I also went from doing databases all the time to doing, you know...it's good career advice typically to find a niche and then stay in it, and I have not followed that advice. [laughter] I've just jumped from...as soon as I'm good at something, I start doing something else.
\n\nWILL: Let me ask you this, how come you don't see more mobile SRE or help in that area?
\n\nCHARITY: I think that you see lots of SREs for mobile apps, but they're on the back-end side. They're on the server side. So it's just not as visible. But even if you've got, like, a stack that's entirely serverless, you still need SRE.
\n\nBut I think that the model is really shifting. You know, it used to be you hired an SRE team or an ops team to carry the pager for you and to take the alerts and to, like, buffer everything, and nowadays, that's not the expectation. That's not what good companies do. You know, they set up systems for their software engineers to own their code in production. But they need help because they're not experts in this, and that's where SRE types come in. Is that your experience?
\n\nWILL: Yeah, for the most part. Yeah, that is.
\n\nCHARITY: Yeah, I think that's very healthy.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I agree with that as well. And I'm going to take that clip of your reaction to that question about when you should start doing [laughter] observability and just play for everybody whenever someone asks [laughs] me that. I'm like, here's the answer. That's great.
\n\nCHARITY: I think a good metaphor for that is like, if you're buying a house and taking out a loan, the more of a down payment you can put down upfront, the lower that your monthly payments are going to be for the rest of your...you amortize that out over the next 20-30 years. The more you can do that, the better your life is going to be because interest rates are a bitch.
\n\nVICTORIA: It makes sense. And yeah, like, to your point earlier about when people actually do start to care about it is usually after something has broken in a traumatic way that can be really bad for your clients and, like, your legal [laughter] stance --
\n\nCHARITY: That's true.
\n\nVICTORIA: As a company.
\n\nCHARITY: Facing stuff, yeah, is where people usually start to think about it. But, like, the less visible part, and I think almost the more important part is what it does to your velocity and your ability to execute internally. When you have a good, clean system that is well-tended that, you know, where the amount of time between when you're writing the code and when the code is in production, and you're looking at...when that is short and tight, like, no more than a couple of hours, like, it's a different job than if it takes you, like, days or weeks to deploy. Your changes get bashed up with other people's.
\n\nAnd, you know, like, you enter, like, the software development death spiral where, you know, it takes a while. So your diffs get even bigger, so code review takes even longer, so it takes even longer. And then your changes are all getting bashed up. And, you know, now you need a team to run deploys and releases. And now you need an SRE team to do the firefighting.
\n\nAnd, like, your systems are...the bigger it gets, the more complicated it gets, the more you're spending time just waiting on each other or switching contexts. You ever, like, see an app and been like, oh, that's a cool app? I wonder...they have 800 engineers at that company. And you're just like, what the hell are they all doing? Like, seriously, how does it take that many engineers to build this admittedly nice little product?
\n\nI guarantee you it's because their internal hygiene is just terrible. It takes them too long to deploy things. They've forgotten what they've written by the time it's out, so nobody ever goes and looks at it. So it's just like, it's becoming a hairball under your bed. Nobody's looking at it. It's becoming more and more mysterious to you.
\n\nLike, I have a rule of thumb which there's no mathematical science behind this, just experience. But it's a rule of thumb that says that if it takes you, you know, on the order of, say, a couple of hours tops to deploy your software, if it takes you that many engineers to build and own that product, well, if your deploys take on the order of days instead of hours, it will take you twice as many people [chuckles] to build and support that product.
\n\nAnd if it takes you weeks to deploy that product, it will take you twice as many again; if anything, that is an underestimate because it actually goes up exponentially, not linearly. But, like, we are so wasteful when it comes to people's time. It is so much easier for managers to go, uh, we're overloaded. Let's hire more people. For some reason, you can always get headcount when you can't actually get the discipline to say no to things or the people to work on internal tools to, like, shrink that gap between when you've written it and when it's live.
\n\nAnd just the waste, it just spirals out of control, man, and it's not good. And, you know, it should be such a fun, creative, fulfilling job where you spend your day solving puzzles for money and moving the business materially forward every day. And instead, how much of our time do we just sit here, like, twiddling our thumbs and waiting for the build to finish or waiting for code review [laughs] to get turned around? Or, you know, swapping projects and, like, trying to page all that context in your brain? Like, it's absurd, and this is not that hard of a problem to fix.
\n\nVICTORIA: Engineering should be fun, and it should be dangerous. That's what [laughs] I'm getting out of this --
\n\nCHARITY: It should be fun, and it should be dangerous. I love that.
\n\nVICTORIA: Fun and dangerous. I like it. [laughs] And speaking of danger, I mean, maybe it's not dangerous, but what does success really look like for you at Honeycomb in the next six months or even in the next five years?
\n\nCHARITY: I find it much more easier to answer what failure would look like.
\n\nVICTORIA: You can answer that too if you like. [laughs]
\n\nCHARITY: [laughs] What would success look like? I mean, obviously, I have no desire to ever go through another acquisition, and I don't want to go out of business. So it'd be nice not to do either of those things, which means since we've taken VC money, IPO would be nice eventually.
\n\nBut, like, ultimately, like, what motivates Christine and me and our entire company really is just, you know, we're engineers. We've felt this pain. We have seen that the world can be better. [laughs] We really just want to help, you know, move engineering into the current decade.
\n\nI feel like there are so many teams out there who hear me talk about this stuff. And they listen wistfully, and they're like, yeah, and they roll their eyes. They're like, yeah, you work in Silicon Valley, or yeah, but you work at a startup, or yeah...they have all these reasons why they don't get nice things.
\n\nWe're just not good enough engineers is the one that breaks my heart the most because it's not true. Like, it has nothing to do...it has almost nothing to do with how good of an engineer you are. You have to be so much better of an engineer to deal with a giant hairball than with software that gets deployed, you know, within the hour that you can just go look at and see if it's working or not.
\n\nI want this to go mainstream. I want people...I want engineers to just have a better time at work. And I want people to succeed at what they're doing. And just...the more we can bring that kind of change to more and more people, the more successful I will feel.
\n\nVICTORIA: I really like that. And I think it's great. And it also makes me think I find that people who work in the DevOps space have a certain type of mentality sometimes, [laughs] like, it's about the greater community and, like, just making being at work better. And I also think it maybe makes you more willing to admit your failures [laughs] like you were earlier, right?
\n\nCHARITY: Probably.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's part of the culture. It's like, well, we messed up. [laughs] We broke stuff, and we're going to learn from it.
\n\nCHARITY: It's healthy. I'm trying to institute a rule where at all hands when we're doing different organizations giving an update every two weeks, where we talk two-thirds about our successes and things that worked great and one-third about things that just didn't work. Like, I think we could all stand to talk about our failures a lot more.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, makes it a lot less scary, I think [laughs], right?
\n\nCHARITY: Yeah, yeah. It democratizes the feeling, and it genuinely...it makes me happy. It's like, that didn't work, great. Now we know not to do it. Of the infinite number of things that we could try, now we know something for real. I think it's exciting. And, I don't know, I think it's funny when things fail. And I think that if we can just laugh about it together...
\n\nYou know, in every engineering org that I've ever worked at, out of all the teams, the ops types teams have always been the ones that are the most tightly bonded. They have this real, like, Band of Brothers type of sentiment. And I think it's because, you know, we've historically endured most of the pain. [laughs] But, like, that sense of, like, it's us against the system, that there is hilarity in failure. And, at the end of the day, we're all just monkeys, like, poking at electrical sockets is, I think...I think it's healthy. [laughs]
\n\nWILL: That's really neat. I love it. This is one of my favorite questions. What advice would you give yourself if you could go back in time?
\n\nCHARITY: I don't know. I think I'd just give myself a thumbs up and go; it's going to be all right. I don't know; I wouldn't... I don't think that I would try to alter the time continuum [laughs] in any way. But I had a lot of anxiety when I was younger about going to hell and all this stuff. And so I think...but anything I said to my future self, I wouldn't have believed anyway. So yeah, I respectfully decline the offer.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's fair. I mean, I think about that a lot too actually, like, I sometimes think like, well, if I could go back to myself a year ago and just --
\n\nCHARITY: Yeah. I would look at me like I was stupid.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. It reminds me a little bit about what you said, though, like, doing SRE and everything upfront or the observability pieces and building it correctly in a way you can deploy fastly is like a gift to your future self. [laughs]
\n\nCHARITY: Yes, it is, with a bow. Yes, exactly.
\n\nVICTORIA: There you go. Well, all right. I think we are about ready to wrap up. Is there anything you would like to promote specifically?
\n\nCHARITY: We just launched this really cool little thing at Honeycomb. And you won't often hear me say the words cool and AI in proximity to each other, but we just launched this really dope little thing. It's a tool for using natural language to ask questions of your telemetry. So, if you just deployed something and you want to know, like, what's slow or did anything change, you can just ask it using English, and it does a ChatGPT thing and generates the right graphs for you. It's pretty sweet.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really cool. So, if you have Honeycomb set up and working in your system and then you can just ask the little chatbot, "Hey, what's going on here?"
\n\nCHARITY: Yeah. What's the slowest endpoint? And it'll just tell you, which is great because I feel like I do not think graphically at all. My brain just really doesn't. So I have never been the person who's, like, creating dashboards or graphs. My friend Ben Hartshorne works with me, and he'll make the dashboards. And then I get up in the morning, and I bookmark them. And so we're sort of symbiotic.
\n\nBut everyone can tweak a query, right? Once you have something that you know is, like, within spitting distance as the data you want, anyone can tweak it, but composing is really hard. So I feel like this really helps you get over that initial hurdle of, like, er, what do I break down by? What do I group by? What are the field names? You just ask it the question, and then you've got to click, click, click, and, like, get exactly what you want out of it. I think it's, like, a game changer.
\n\nVICTORIA: That sounds extremely cool. And we will certainly link to it in our show notes today. Thank you so much for being with us and spending the time, Charity.
\n\nCHARITY: Yeah, this was really fun.
\n\nVICTORIA: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nWILL: And you could find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Charity Majors.
Sponsored By:
Irina Nazarova is CEO of Evil Martians, a product development consultancy that works with startups and established businesses while creating open-source products and services.
\n\nVictoria talks to Irina about getting a sense of what people are interested in learning about or what kind of problems they have, how consulting and product development complement each other, and of course, the question on everyone's minds: Is Evil Martians really evil? 😈
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Irina Nazarova, CEO at Evil Martians, a product development consultancy that works with startups and established businesses while also creating open-source-based products and services. Irina, thanks for joining us.
\n\nIRINA: Hey, thank you for having me.
\n\nVICTORIA: You're welcome. Tell me a little bit about what's going on in your world this week.
\n\nIRINA: So I just returned from Rails SaaS in Athens, which was pretty incredible. It's a smaller conference, but it has amazing vibes, amazing people. And, like, I just loved it there in Athens.
\n\nVICTORIA: Mmm.
\n\nIRINA: And, yeah, I wonder how your experience was? Because I know you also went to Japan, right?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I went to RubyKaigi in Matsumoto last month. It was a good community, and to get to travel to a cool place was really fun. So I feel really lucky that I was able to get to go. Did you eat a lot of Greek food while you were there?
\n\nIRINA: Not that much. I was a speaker. So I was a bit nervous, and I skipped some meals. [chuckles]
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh no. [laughs]
\n\nIRINA: Just to prepare. But we did have a super nice dinner with Xavier Noria, and, well, we had some Greek wine. All right, we did that.
\n\nVICTORIA: That sounds fabulous. And, you know, I was going to ask you...one of my questions was about the conferences you've been attending because we met at RailsConf in Atlanta. And I saw you went to Rails SaaS and maybe some other ones recently. So, how has that been for you overall?
\n\nIRINA: It's amazing. I think, like, all the conferences are suddenly back. And the energy is different than maybe pre-COVID. I didn't really attend many conferences pre-COVID, but I did attend some. Now people are so eager to sort of reconnect. And me, I think, I feel like I'm only starting to make those connections. And it's so emotional to meet people that I only see on Twitter, but meeting them in person is magical for some reason. So this is what's happening. Like, to me, I'm just amazed by all this energy and support coming from the community towards many people, like, towards each other.
\n\nVICTORIA: I also feel amazed when I meet someone I've followed on Twitter for a long time but in real life [laughs]. I'm like, wow. That was Aaron Patterson for me. I was like, oh, this is someone I followed on Twitter a long time ago because I thought they were funny. And now they're a speaker at this conference I'm at [laughs], which is really nice. And do the conferences help you connect more to potential clients? Or what's, like, the business reason for attending all of these events?
\n\nIRINA: Good question. So I'm not expecting any, you know, direct sales to happen at the conferences. But, for example, I get to understand the clients, maybe better, the potential clients. And I get to connect with the existing clients, again, on a different level. So, if you have a client at the conference and you have a chance to see them in person, which we never do, and you as well, right? thoughtbot, you guys are not meeting the clients, like, the same thing. But if you get to meet even, like, some people from the client team, it's amazing. You can have a different type of connection.
\n\nAnd I met an engineer from our past client at RailsConf, and it was something incredible. I didn't expect him to react like the way he did. You know, the moment he realized that I am from Evil Martians, like, his facial expressions just immediately transformed into a big smile. And he said such warm words about the things we did, something like two or three years ago. I mean, you don't have anything better than that in this industry, right? There's nothing better than this sincere, you know, gratitude from a client. [chuckles] It's just amazing.
\n\nVICTORIA: I can relate to that, being from thoughtbot and attending Rails and RubyConfs. It is a nice feeling that people know the company or they know some open-source projects or some training materials we put out. And they're so grateful. [laughs] And I've only been at thoughtbot for a year. So, for me, I'm like, you're welcome. [laughs] I haven't done those things, but I will. And I will build on, you know, I think it also helps you kind of get a sense for what people are interested in learning about or what kind of problems they have. So, tell me more about that with Evil Martians. What is it all about?
\n\nIRINA: I think we share this feeling where we want to give back. You and me we both felt something where people were grateful for something the companies did. But now I feel I need to give back somehow, and maybe I'm sure you feel the same. And you're doing this podcast, which is important for the community and other things. You're open-sourcing the tooling. So both of our companies are actually sharing a lot of, like, philosophies, attitude, where it's great to be in the community that we're in.
\n\nSo we also do something where we have some products like AnyCable. And it's interesting to talk to people using those products because we do have a much larger number of users of our products, you know, compared to our consulting clients, that's for sure. So the chances of meeting the users of AnyCable or, like, other products are pretty high at the conference, at Rails Conference.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. So I find it similar that you have the consultancy side and you have the product development side. Take it a little bit further back to just where it all started with Evil Martians. Are you really evil? It's [laughs] [inaudible 05:47] question.
\n\nIRINA: Absolutely. We are. I mean, and we come from Mars.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs]
\n\nIRINA: Yeah, that's also true. It's a nice planet. We just make you think that it's a bad planet.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, to keep you away. You don't want too many tourists.
\n\nIRINA: Yeah.
\n\nVICTORIA: Mm-hmm, that makes sense. [laughs] But I understand you all started as a consultancy from back-end engineers. And then, it grew into what it is today and having several side projects. So, how does the consultancy side and the product development side complement each other?
\n\nIRINA: Yeah, so the way it works, it's like a cycle of things where we work for startups like thoughtbot. And then, we work with 20 to 30 product engineering teams every year. And we notice which tools could be helpful for those teams and maybe would be helpful for us in those teams. So we're trying to enhance, improve our own productivity and the productivity of our clients. And that's how, I think, many of our open-source projects started.
\n\nSome of the open-source projects, I think, started, you know, for fun, for some other reasons. But many of them actually were useful in the client projects. So then we are passionate about this. So, for example, we have PostCSS. PostCSS was built by our Head of Front End, Andrey Sitnik. And it has something, like, 30,000, you know, GitHub Stars. And Autoprefixer, which is a PostCSS plugin, has, like, 20,000 GitHub Stars. So they are huge. I mean, it's not just about the stars; half of the internet is actually using PostCSS.
\n\nBut PostCSS is popular, but we didn't turn it into a product. We are not commercializing it at all. But some of the other tools, let's call them tools, that we open-sourced, we could then envision how we could commercialize them. And the way it works is there are actually several strategies. For imgproxy, for example, we sell a paid version. But for AnyCable, which is another tool, we also sell a pro version. But we also earn consulting kind of get consulting clients come in for product development related to AnyCable, let's say. This is how AnyCable also helps us get consulting clients in a major way.
\n\nAnd then we ended up building a lot of tools for engineers. And then because we work with this type of tools, now we also have many developer tools clients. So we started specializing on developer tools. It's about half of the sort of revenue. And now it's getting even more interesting; I think, because we don't just build tools for engineers, you know, ourselves as side projects, like I said. But also, our consultant work is essentially the same thing. It's often commercial open source like Teleport, or HTTPie, tools for engineers.
\n\nThis is exciting, I think, because now we can use this, you know, sort of connection with a type of audience, with a type of customer base, like the engineers, and we can leverage this experience in our consulting work, which is even better. And then we do open source with the products. They help us get consultant revenue, and then the experience on those projects helps us improve our products, and get product ideas, and get the first users for those products, et cetera. So it's like consulting helps product development, in our case.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, to play that back a little bit, it's almost like a cycle where they feed into each other where your engineers as they're working are also kind of, like, the customers who would be using the developer tools that you want to build. So you have some market research there. And then, you know, it all feeds back into each other so that the customers who are using your products are also likely to need your consultant services. [laughs] So that's a nice flow.
\n\nI wonder if there's anything surprising that came out during that kind of discovery process for product, for developer tools when you were first starting out, anything that you thought this is a tool maybe we think people are going to use. But then what was the reality, or [chuckles] what surprising things happened?
\n\nIRINA: A lot of things. But I think the main one that is sort of important is that there's a difference between open source and product a product. And the differences...okay, the way I'm trying to explain it is, like, between...it's, like, the difference between you and your friend from another industry.
\n\nLet's say you have a friend who is a microbiologist or something. And they are smart, right? They are smart in their own field. But if you give them your open source and ask them to take a look and you expect them to learn about it, to want to learn about it, they won't do it. They might use your product based on your open source, though, if it is easy if they know how to benefit from the product.
\n\nSo what I'm trying to say is, turning open source into a product is like essentially building a new product, a new thing where the customer base is different because you want it to be wider. But you don't want them to learn about your open source and to be passionate about your technology. You want them to be passionate about the value they want to get, you know, about something they're building. So it's a shift in mentality that you got to make to make it work.
\n\nAnd pretty often, the people that collaborate with us in the open source are, you know, super different from the people who become our users. And users are great, but, you know, they don't want to learn too much about the internals and how it's supposed to work. They just want to click a button, and pay some money, and get the result, get the value from this. And, I don't know, it sounds simple. But it's actually a major shift in thinking about your product for you as an author of a tool, of a technology, of something.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's a really interesting distinction to make. So, when you're building open-source projects, you want to really invite people in and get people excited about how the whole tool works and how they can use it in their projects. And then, on the product side, you're wanting to make it super easy [chuckles] for people and make sure they're focusing on the value of what they're getting out of this product instead of having to, like, understand all the little details. Is that right?
\n\nIRINA: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. And is there any product in particular that you're really excited about or you see a lot of growth in with Evil Martians?
\n\nIRINA: Yeah, I will talk about AnyCable. I will say AnyCable because I am personally involved in its development. So we did it with Vladimir Dementyev, the author. And the exciting part about AnyCable is the types of products and the types of functionality that can be built using AnyCable. So these are all kind of collaboration features, collaboration tools. The simplest are just the chats within your Rails application. And we have a lot of medical and healthcare applications that want to keep the data, the chat, you know, data on their own servers without sending them to some SaaSs. That's why they use AnyCable.
\n\nBut also, we have other tools that use AnyCable to build collaboration. And we've helped some clients build this at Evil Martians using AnyCable, leveraging AnyCable. But it's exciting when, like, other companies do it themselves sort of without us just by using the product. So I don't like it when I don't have the collaboration within a tool that you're using with someone else together.
\n\nSo I remember we were using something like a tool to create a service, and me and Vladimir we're using it simultaneously, you know, rewriting our edits all the time. And it was so frustrating because they didn't support collaboration in this tool. So the thing you do when you don't support the collaboration is just that every user, every player, is just rewriting what the other player did without saving. So it's, like, so frustrating, yeah. So I like it that our product is helping people fix this problem.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And to kind of summarize a little bit about what AnyCable does, is that it allows you to build Ruby on Rails apps and use any WebSocket server in any language as a replacement for the Ruby server. Is that accurate?
\n\nIRINA: Not exactly. So AnyCable is a server that stands next to your Ruby on Rails app and handles all the WebSockets. It's written in Go. It's super fast, super efficient, and scales efficiently. That's the most important part. Because you don't have to scale your entire Ruby on Rails app, your, you know, entire logic just to support the real-time load. So you only scale this small, efficient app, and it handles all the load and super quickly. And it also supports HTML over WebSockets updates, I mean, Hotwire and stuff. So it helps you scale your Hotwire updates as well.
\n\nSo it's much faster than Ruby. It's much more efficient in terms of scaling. And, yeah, it's bidirectional, meaning that the server sends...by the way, it's just a drop-in replacement for ActionCable. So we're using ActionCable protocol. So we have the channels and stuff. So this means that we can send data, you know, from server broadcasts, the data from server, but we can also send the data from any client.
\n\nAnd one of the use cases for Any Cable, by the way, is different devices that send their coordinates or some other data in real-time. Like, we have some kind of cars sending us GPS data. It's cute, I think that you keep your business logic in your Ruby and Rails app, which is the place to write your business logic, which is the best place to write it. But the infrastructure and all the sort of delivery guarantees, order guarantees, all this kind of infrastructure layer is serviced, is handled by AnyCable, so you don't have to worry about it.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. Thank you for expanding on that. The interesting part for you on that is just to have this be able to be more collaborative, right? So we're working on this whole project together and not siloing into our different groups and building bespoke products to solve this problem.
\n\nIRINA: Yeah, I mean, I like collaborative UI as a norm, as something that has to be there. So, for any work-related tools...and we do work remotely now over the internet somehow. So I think any tool for any professionals has to have a collaborative regime, right? Support for collaboration because people want to work together. And that's the only way to work, I think.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that makes sense to me.
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\n\nVICTORIA: Was there anything that's happened in the last few years maybe, or even that's come up in that discovery process as you're building these products that made you shift your strategic direction for Evil Martians?
\n\nIRINA: Yeah. I was initially looking for the right strategy regarding the products at Evil Martians. And what I mean is we were always passionate about building our own products, building our own products for engineers. We were always passionate about this. But, in order to make it work...and I think it works now, in a way, because we just had our other product, imgproxy, incorporate. And they raised a round of external financing, which is a win, I think. I mean, they have a long, long way to go. And we will try to support them. But, for me, it's important that we had an internal project, you know, graduate us and move beyond Evil Martians.
\n\nSo something that I changed, I think, in the company together with the founders, for sure, is how we structure the incentives related to the internal products. What I'm trying to say is this: many companies that have an internal project will be looking to own those products. That's what I'm trying to say. And we are not looking for that.
\n\nWhat we're looking for is to have a founding team for a product and to make sure they have the majority of shares, that they are the owners of this product. Because we know that building a product is such a long way, and it's a difficult journey. And it takes years and decades to build them into something large, or profitable, or sustainable. So we want the people who are actually doing this to be properly motivated.
\n\nSo something that I convinced the founders to do was to keep the share of Evil Martian's [inaudible 20:40] in those new products at a low level, which may sound counterintuitive for some businessmen, you know, for some owners of the business. They will say, "Well, this was something that was built internally in this company. So this is fully owned by this company." And I agree. Like, from the legal standpoint, this is correct.
\n\nBut it doesn't make much sense if you think about it because you don't want to own, you know, 95% or 100% in something that its worth is zero or even, you know, a negative amount when you keep investing, and you're not getting any returns. But rather, you'd have 10%, 15%, 20% in something large and profitable. And that was the change, I think, where we said, look, we'll be investing in products in a certain way to make sure that the founders, you know, the team of authors is properly motivated. So they own this, and Evil Martians is just the first investor.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense because I have been a part of companies where they wanted to reproduce and productize what they'd built for a client and make that something they owned. And I think you use an interesting approach to motivate people to contribute to a project like that by sharing the ownership. [laughs] And that makes a lot of sense to me. I'm curious, based on your response to that last question, how would you describe your leadership style as a CEO?
\n\nIRINA: There's no one way to be the CEO, I guess. So every person approaches this differently. And it's not that easy to be the CEO after the founder, [laughs] so, when, you know, the founder who was the CEO before hands you the job. It's not that easy. But I had trust and support. And I still have it, for sure, the trust and support from the founders and from the team because I've been with the company for four years already when I moved into this role.
\n\nAnd I think of my style as, first of all, you know, listen to the team, collect the information first. I imagine that I act like a consultant from a management consulting firm, but I didn't work in a management consulting firm. I didn't know how they actually work. But I imagine this is how they work. They sort of speak with every person on the team, and they try to figure out the blockers, the problems, and the aspirations of the team.
\n\nAnd then they try to find how to improve, you know, the collective utility, the utility of the group, how to improve the situation, maybe not for every single person but for the majority of them. And this was my initial approach and fixing some, maybe, problems in the company. But I would also try to come up with my own ideas as well for sure. But I rely on the team a lot.
\n\nSo what I also did is I started relying on my leadership team much more than maybe the founder and CEO. So I'm relying on Andrey Sitnik, Head of Front End, on Roman Shamin, on Vladimir Dementyev, and other people, Victoria, Victoria Melnikova, our Head of New Business. And I'm relying on many people heavily, heavily.
\n\nAnd my goal is to make sure they see where we want to go and they each can contribute in a certain way. And I ask them how they can contribute. I'm not telling them how to do this, right? I trust their judgment in their area of expertise. But mostly, I just ask about what they can do. And this is how we work together.
\n\nVICTORIA: I like that. I like how you're really connecting with your team and finding out their strengths, and their struggles, and what they think should do. And then it's how do you enable them as a CEO to achieve this greater vision that you all want to work towards? So I really like that. What would you say is maybe your biggest challenge that you're facing right now?
\n\nIRINA: I actually challenged myself to become more publicly, sort of effective. [laughs] That's why I'm here, for example. So I realized we do have amazing engineers, amazing designers who are out there, you know, doing podcasts, doing open-source, building technologies, writing on our blog, doing all of this. And I realized that, well, I should do my part as well. And this was one of the goals for this year.
\n\nThe other goal, the other challenge is so complicated that I'm not sure [laughs] I'm ready to talk about it yet. So some of the things I'm trying to do, to be honest, I'm not sure if I can do them at all, [laughs] and that's the problem.
\n\nSo thoughtbot has the Incubator Program, right? And this means that thoughtbot presumably gets equity in those new businesses that people build with thoughtbot's help and guidance. And we're not doing this, but we're doing something else, also trying to make sure we have shares in the amazing businesses that we help grow and they become successful. And we're doing everything we can to make sure they are successful. And I want this company to have a share in the success of our clients, our products, all of that together.
\n\nVICTORIA: It would probably contribute to motivation, which is another factor you mentioned previously about.
\n\nIRINA: Yep.
\n\nVICTORIA: You know, right? [laughs]
\n\nIRINA: Absolutely, yeah.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. We're all going to work a lot harder and collaborate a lot more together. That makes sense.
\n\nIRINA: Yeah, it also means, yeah, that it makes sense to have a share at Evil Martians. You know, as a part of the company, as an employee, you're getting a share in the company. But as you know, when you are a consulting company, it's sort of a complicated question, actually. If you're a startup and you are granting equity-like stock options to your team, this makes sense because if the company goes, you know, grows and goes public; those shares become something super valuable, like, super cool.
\n\nBut we are not looking to grow our consulting company into something huge. That's for sure. It won't be possible, right? We are operating at this small niche, that's for sure. And we don't have that many amazing engineers, consultants, and it's so hard to hire them. So, anyways, we're not looking to grow that much, although we are growing. And this means that shares in our company do not mean the same thing as the shares in our clients. But if we participate in the success of our clients, then it sort of changes the whole motivation on our own team. This is what I'm thinking about.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that's a great question. And I wonder, to build on that, what success really looks like six months from now, or even, like, five years from now for Evil Martians.
\n\nIRINA: I want us to be recognized as the best consultancy, consulting company for developer tools, products. I know maybe it sounds ambitious, but this is what we are super passionate about. This is where we are accumulating the expertise. And this means I want people to think Evil Martians when they build a product for engineers. I want them to think about us and reach out to us. But also, I want us to build a number of successful products, commercial products for engineers, which is a huge challenge. Like, doing both it's not easy, that's for sure. But let's see.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, it's good to be ambitious. And I love that journey for you. I'm excited to follow along. I wonder what advice you would give yourself if you could travel back in time to maybe when you first joined [chuckles] Evil Martians.
\n\nIRINA: I'd say, first of all, be confident in sharing your opinion because, well, especially for females, we do have a lot of, like, impostor syndrome when joining a tech company, for sure. But it's not just females, right? When you dig deeper, you realize that most people have impostor syndrome, regardless of their gender, background, et cetera. No one is this perfect image of a perfect engineer. It's just no one, really. And everyone has that.
\n\nAnd I want everyone who is joining the new company or maybe entering tech as the industry to be confident in sharing their opinions, well, humbly, respectfully but for sure. But don't shy away from asking the questions and from owning your agenda. That's what I want to say.
\n\nLike, the first year and maybe two years, I didn't own my own agenda. I didn't try to control the sort of to-do lists, the things I'm doing. And later, when I started thinking, you know, critically about my own priorities, I realized that I could bring more value by doing something else, maybe not, you know, not 100% different things but maybe by adding 20% to the mix and removing something that is actually not urgent, not important, you know, just randomly added to...just randomly asked by someone, [chuckles] you know.
\n\nSo I think own your own agenda. Be more confident and look forward. Try to imagine the future that you want. And, for some reason, it works. I don't know how, but it does work. So you start imagining the future. You share it with the team; you discuss it with the team. And this is the magic of the teamwork. Maybe you cannot do it alone, but as a team, so much more is possible.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And thank you so much for sharing. I'm sure there's maybe a future Irina out there [laughs] who's hearing that advice now and can take it into their work. What if your younger self could travel forward in time, and what advice would they give you now?
\n\nIRINA: Oh, this is funny. Maybe my younger self would say that I should spend more time with my friends. [laughs] That's what I should do, yeah.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's never bad advice, I think. I love it. Okay. So, is there anything that you would like to promote?
\n\nIRINA: This is not tech-related at all. But I want to ask the listeners to donate to the non-profit organizations supporting people in Ukraine because people are suffering in Ukraine. And there was this explosion of the dam, and the floods, everything. And it's never been as important as it is now to support the non-profits. And I can suggest the Nova Ukraine non-profit organization. It's an American organization, but they send all their money to the local initiatives. So it's a great way to support a good cause.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, wonderful, and we can include that into the show notes. Thank you so much for joining me today, Irina.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you could email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Irina Nazarova.
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Neetu Rajpal is the CTO of Oscar Health. Oscar aims to make a healthier life accessible and affordable for all by refactoring healthcare to make great care cost less.
\n\nChad talks to Neetu about working for a relatively new insurance company, reorganizing its structure by getting people into the right positions, and how incorporating large language models and generative AI is an inflection point that will help move things forward.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Neetu Rajpal, the CTO of Oscar Health. Neetu, thank you so much for joining me.
\n\nNEETU: It's great to be here. Thank you very much for having me.
\n\nCHAD: I want to talk about your role at Oscar Health, and your history, and everything that you've done. But everyone listening might not be familiar with Oscar Health. So let's start there; what is Oscar Health?
\n\nNEETU: Yes. Oscar Health is a health insurance company. We sell health insurance, primarily on the ACA marketplace across 20 different states in the U.S. We have just over a million members. So we basically sell health insurance to people.
\n\nOne of the big, unique things about Oscar Health has been it's a very relatively new insurance company. So it's only been around for about ten years. And it was founded as a pretty standard tech startup. We've built all of the infrastructure for acquiring supporting members and providers, and brokers in-house. So we're fully cloud-native, distributed systems hosted on AWS and GCP with a giant data lake that supports all of our workflows. And this is a pretty unique integrated solution in terms of health insurance companies. So we're very much a tech-focused health insurance company. I've been at Oscar for about three and a half years.
\n\nI came to Oscar not from a healthcare background but just really mission-oriented and motivated to go help something in the healthcare space. I've spent most of my career building software, first at Microsoft and then at Conductor and WeWork. And I'm really excited to be here. It's really, really rewarding to be at a company that's serving primarily an underserved market in the ACA space.
\n\nCHAD: Well, I suppose full disclosure is in order. Oscar and thoughtbot have been working together for a long time now, actually, with Oscar as a client of ours. So I appreciate you joining us on the show, and I appreciate you working with us over the years. I think we worked...we started working with Oscar maybe when you were just in one or two states. And so, how have you handled that growth? And I think that's one of the complexities of the insurance space, right? Is every location is different in important ways.
\n\nNEETU: Yeah. Actually, it seems like Oscar and thoughtbot have worked longer than Oscar and myself.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nNEETU: So I think that's a pretty exciting, interesting statistic. And even during my time, it's been a great experience working with thoughtbot.
\n\nOne of the big premise Oscar had was to build software that was segregated enough and isolated enough but composable enough that you could, in fact, bundle the full healthcare tech stack and then bundle it back together as you needed with configuration and scale it as you needed with, like, smart built-in scalability. And I think our ability to grow into multiple states and multiple counties has been, like, a good proof point of the fact that you can, in fact, do that.
\n\nIn most cases, adding a new state is sometimes, at least from the tech perspective, from the software perspective is a combination of identifying the right configuration settings, mapping it to the features, and then just configuring the software to be able to support that new service area that we've just added. And that, I think, has been, like, a huge value add in terms of being able to add new locations to serve our members, add new providers, add new contracts. And our premise of building stuff or to unbundle and then bundle it back together as needed has really proven out a lot.
\n\nCHAD: I assume there have been some challenges along the way. What do you think have been among the biggest?
\n\nNEETU: I think the challenges have been an interesting combination of just learning the insurance business landscape then building software that aligns with it. So each county you might go into, each state you might go into, have its own set of regulatory requirements, have its own set of, like, reimbursement requirements, have its own set of, like, plan requirements, and these are...as a new insurance company, I think along the way, we really did have to learn a lot of these things and sometimes by trial and error and that, you know, it's a pretty sometimes a long cycle with insurance. So that has been interesting and challenging.
\n\nCHAD: So not necessarily a technical problem but more, like, even just figuring out what it should...how it should work.
\n\nNEETU: Yeah. I think definitely the business problem has been interesting on the technical side. So I started at Oscar about three and a half years ago. And my first questions as I was going through the interview process were, "Like, I don't understand why you built all of this stuff in-house, like, why aren't you just [inaudible 05:18]?" And those were rather naive questions to be asking a tech-focused insurance company.
\n\nMany years ago, when Oscar chose to use Elasticsearch, it wasn't a BAA-compliant solution. So you couldn't actually use a managed version of Elasticsearch. So we ended up hosting our own Elasticsearch cluster. We were one of the first or the first few people to actually sign a BAA with AWS a long time ago. So, technically speaking, I think the challenges have been around you don't always have the same set of tools available to you; at least, that used to be the case. This is rapidly declining rapidly. The availability of tools is almost the same now. And two, the ecosystem that you live in.
\n\nWe still definitely have a service that has easy availability to a fax machine, and I think there are a few companies that are able to say that. But it's also the ecosystem that you live in, that you're trying to bring along with yourself, and also ecosystem you're using to support and build the tech stack. Both of those things have been rather interesting. In terms of actually building the software, that's, like, pretty standard regular set of software challenges.
\n\nCHAD: How big is the Oscar engineering team at this point?
\n\nNEETU: Oscar engineering team has fluctuated between 300 and 400 people over the past few years. I think we're about 350 or so right now.
\n\nCHAD: Generally speaking, how is the team organized to perform at that scale?
\n\nNEETU: I am actually a pretty big believer in first building a tech strategy that is tied to the business strategy before building the org structure. So, even at the Oscar engineering and tech team org structure, it has probably fluctuated quite a bit based on what the business needed. As of right now, we have dedicated folks that are aligned along individual set of audiences that we are supporting.
\n\nSo we have a group of people who focuses primarily on the members and the member applications. We have a group of folks who focuses primarily on the provider and all the needs of the providers. And then we have a group of people maybe focused on just growth in general. And that could be growth through enrollments with brokers, enrollments without brokers, direct exchanges, or even some of our +Oscar business work.
\n\nSo we've tried to, at this moment, align ourselves with the audience that we're serving. And, of course, like, no engineering team is purely vertical or purely horizontal. So we also have an infrastructure platform team that supports all of the areas.
\n\nCHAD: Do people sort of opt in, or are their roles advertised in each of those places? Or, as you reorganize into those structures, have you seen ways that work successfully in terms of getting people into the right position?
\n\nNEETU: Like, at the larger level in terms of the audience space, there tends to be pretty standard set of roles. As you might imagine, when the companies are smaller, there's a lot of investment or need for really, truly full-stack developers and full-stack engineers. As we've grown larger, there is a bit of specialization towards either the front-end portion of the house or the back-end portion of the house.
\n\nAnd we do have roles posted, and the roles some of them concentrate more towards the front-end tech. Some of them concentrate more towards distributed computing, and back end, and data engineering roles. And some concentrate more towards infrastructure engineering. And, as the teams always get bigger, there tend to also be, like, the supporting functions around technical product management and technical program management that are also part of the equation at the moment.
\n\nWe do post all of these roles in those terms, with clarity around what the expectations are. As we re-org, we always prioritize internal candidates. We have a big enough team. People like to work on different set of problems and happy to align passions with our business needs because that tends to work out really, really well.
\n\nCHAD: Well, there's a reason why I'm asking about this particularly for you because one of the things that stood out to me about your background was the length of time that you were at Microsoft and the movement that you did between a variety of different roles across the organization. So that's an experience that you bring to the table. Was that something that you did intentionally?
\n\nNEETU: Yeah. I was at Microsoft for 18 years. And I think every couple of years, I did a new thing. And while I would like to very much say, yeah, I totally figured out that I wanted to be an engineer...
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nNEETU: And then a product manager, and then, you know, an engineer again, or then a product manager again, or a leadership role again, or even the stack as in work on small APIs or work on full enterprise-grade products or cloud...I would like to very much say those were very thought through, you know, clearly pre-planned career moves; they were not.
\n\nAnd particularly, in my case, they were very much I chased problems. And I would get very obsessed or interested in a particular problem. And then, I would go dive deep into that problem and aim to go solve it. And by the time I had figured it out and solved it, there was always a new problem. And this was the wonderful promise of Microsoft where, you know, it is so large, and there are so many different ways to think about different problems, or different ways you can bring software to market, or problems in the world you can solve with it, that I particularly took full advantage of it.
\n\nAnd that hasn't really changed in terms of how the rest of my career post-Microsoft has gone, either. Every couple of years, I find myself in a space that is completely scary, completely new, completely different. For me, that tends to be my happy place, to be working on super difficult things that are very scary.
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\n\nCHAD: It does sound like even though you might not have some grand plan, [chuckles] you are driven to seek out challenges.
\n\nNEETU: Yeah. I heard something really, really long time ago that kind of has stuck with me always, which is don't let your curiosity die. So, if you are curious, don't just let it shy away; just indulge in it. That's how you're always moving forward. For me, that's been a big theme as in, I really, really enjoy always learning. Always finding myself not to be the smartest person in the room is really, really great. And always moving forward and pushing hard, and solving bigger and bigger problems.
\n\nCHAD: So, when you were deciding to join Oscar Health, how concerned were you with the particulars of the individual position that you were applying for? Or was it more, like, I've identified this space and this problem that I want to be a part of?
\n\nNEETU: Yeah, that's a really, really great question. And I think it's one of the ones that when I mentor people, I tell them about as well, which is, I had a role with Conductor that was this head of R&D, CTO, and CPO, and a very traditional ladder style path to the next step or something along those lines or bigger. But I personally am not motivated by titles as much as I am about potential impact I can have.
\n\nMy walk into healthcare out of MarTech or out of just, like, platform was very personal in terms of I have a healthcare story. Everybody really has a healthcare story. And I wanted to go do something in this space, utilize all of the skills that I already have, and then try to push the space forward.
\n\nAnd so, when I joined Oscar, I was not really that motivated by what the title was going to be. I was really looking for is, is there going to be an opportunity to have an impact? And is there going to be space for me to have impact? Am I going to be surrounded by a group of people who I can have impact with? That was the primary concern. And I did join Oscar as a VP of engineering. And that didn't last very long.
\n\nWithin the next year and a half, I was already promoted to CTO in that role. And each one of those steps was very much motivated by will I actually be able to have impact? Will I be empowered to have impact? Was I equipped to have an impact? And was I going to learn a lot in that role? Those were my primary motivators. And that's always been the case.
\n\nIt's also a hard-won lesson. Like, when I had my first kid, it was a really difficult time, personally. I had really bad postpartum depression. I had really hard time dealing with what is going to happen with my career, and I had to take a step back. And as somebody who was, like, super ambitious and wanted to go straight up, that was a really challenging thing to do. And that was a long time ago, and I've been able to rebuild, quote, unquote, "rebuild" my career back multiple times over.
\n\nSo it's actually been, like, a hard-won lesson where it doesn't kind of matter what part of the rocket ship you have a seat on, as long as you have the seat on the rocket ship. And by rocket ship, I wish I was only talking about stock price; I'm not. I'm just talking about the ability to have impact. If I can be in this right group and I can have a voice, then it didn't matter what my title was.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, thank you for sharing. And I think it feels like the pace of change accelerates. But in growing organizations, so much changes all of the time. So what you are doing...or the roles that exist will change as well. And the other thing...I often get asked by clients, "Should we be hiring a VP of engineering or a CTO?" I'm like, the definition of those roles varies so much between company, and team size, and everything. It's like; it really is difficult to answer that question because it is so different. It all depends on the needs of the organization.
\n\nNEETU: Yeah. I've done both of those roles, at least twice each time, twice now. And I've personally discovered that A, those roles don't really have a defined, like, there is no clear definition for either one of those roles.
\n\nThe other thing that I think is more important is I don't think the organizations know what they want out of those roles most of the times, either. In my experience so far, VP of engineering is a little bit easier to define because it has a very heavy management component to it. And so I've ended up just defining those roles for myself every time, and so far, so good.
\n\nAnd the way I define those roles is very much, like, a CTO role is a half-business half-technical role. It's the role where you understand the business strategy and turn it into a tech strategy that supports the business strategy and pushes the business forward, and acts as the competitive advantage for the business. And your role is, in fact, to be the person who takes tech and applies it to pushing the business forward. That's one direction.
\n\nAnd the other direction, it is the role to take the business strategy and translate into technical terms so that you can bring and coalesce your whole team's motivation around it and bring the whole team around it. And I definitely find this very much at Oscar, where most people who join Oscar engineering and Oscar tech they all come motivated outside of Oscar already to help push the industry forward in one way or another.
\n\nSo actually keeping that motivation in the right place all the time with authenticity and truth about what it is, how we're pushing the business forward. And helping the business move forward is an extremely valuable skill. So, from my perspective, the tech role is definitely half-business, half-tech with some variable sprinkling of management attached to it, and I think that's the CTO role. And the VP of engineering was very heavily bent towards management, I think, yeah.
\n\nCHAD: Well, so in that CTO role, we'll often be faced with understanding how industry changes, or new technology, or whatever can help the business. Obviously, we have a big one happening right now with artificial intelligence or large language models and machine learning. I have a couple of questions around this area. But, like, is there something in particular with that that you're either thinking about now in terms of Oscar or have already incorporated?
\n\nNEETU: Yeah. I think large language models and generative AI, in general, is definitely an inflection point. And I think it's an inflection point that is going to help push so many things forward. And I think healthcare is very interestingly poised towards pushing in that direction. There is everything from, like, shortage of providers or shortage of mental health providers to just a large availability of data in the healthcare space that can help discover things that may not be the easiest to discover through humans looking at it. So I think there's a huge opportunity.
\n\nI also think it needs, like, a bit of cautious evaluation. We are dealing with something that you can't break, so you can't move fast and break things when you're dealing with people. But there are interesting use cases where you could use generative AI and have it maybe not make a decision for a person but assist the provider to make a decision. Or you can use it in areas, at least in healthcare space, where there is a lot of inefficiency because of too much to do. And you can actually optimize a whole bunch of that.
\n\nSo examples could be, you know, there's the standard examples of chatbots as in, is this doctor part of my network? Can I have an appointment with this doctor? Can I have an appointment and a prior auth with this doctor immediately? Like, those are, I think, a little bit more accessible use cases. And Oscar, also, we're exploring and figuring out which one of those makes most sense for us in our business. And there's tons of excitement and tons of, like, thought being put behind it. As of right now, I probably can't say all the things that we're working on at the moment. But yes, absolutely, this is a very big deal.
\n\nCHAD: So, speaking more generally around exploring new ideas, you mentioned at Conductor, you were in an R&D role combined...like, is there strategies that you've seen that work particularly well for doing research and development within an organization, exploring new ideas, figuring things out?
\n\nNEETU: Yeah. It definitely depends on which portion or which portion of the maturity stack you're on. If you're building software that is going to be sold to enterprises, you have to have some version of a promise of a date, and then you have to keep your promise. So, if you're selling enterprise software, you have to be predictable because your partners on the other side are relying on you.
\n\nAnd you can't actually get predictability without having enough stability in your team, and enough stability in your roadmaps, and enough stability in your tech environment [inaudible 22:30] So that you can figure out what you're going to build, you can figure out where you're going to build, and how you're going to build it. You can figure out what teams and resources you're going to allocate to it. And you can also have some confidence that when you're ready to send code out to production, there is some automated CI/CD system that is, like, going to help you make sure that the number of errors that you are sending out into the world is as few as possible.
\n\nAnd that superpower of being able to, like, churn out code and features and products like a machine on a pretty regular basis has the potential downside of not being able to disrupt yourself. And I think there are definitely a couple of strategies to do that. One of them is to allocate enough space by filling it with P2s as opposed to everything being a P0, that if you were to, like, displace the P2s with something that is new and available now, then you're going to be okay because you can live without the P2s. We had to have enough of those.
\n\nThere is also the whole skunk works model, which I think works pretty well. I think it does need to be set up carefully so that you're not, like, destroying the motivation of everybody in the team. You do have the opportunity to do the skunkworks model. And, like, the generating ideas portion, we do this at Oscar, and I think this is also done elsewhere. We have pretty regular hackathons that are dedicated amounts of time, and we put them on the schedule. And, during that time, we just go explore and dream and go build other things. And we build it collaboratively with the rest of the business.
\n\nAnd there are definitely still, like, stories of things that were developed in a hackathon that served us really well for years on end. And I don't think that's ever going to change. But anything that is, like, a real solid enterprise production stuff probably needs a dedicated skunkworks something or the other so you can...I don't think it's a bad thing to have solid schedules. I think it's a really huge superpower to have solid schedules. I do think you have to have the discipline to be able to disrupt yourself; otherwise, somebody else will.
\n\nCHAD: Right. And so figuring out a structure, you can do that. And, like you said, you know, you don't want to ruin the morale or the excitement of the entire organization where people say, like, "Well, it's not my job," you know, or, "I wish I could work on this, but it's this team's." And you're not set up to capture that individual person's excitement over generative AI, for example, who is the one who's actually going to make it happen. And you're squashing that because they're not, quote, unquote, "supposed to work on it." I think that's a really difficult balance to strike.
\n\nNEETU: Yeah, I think it is. But I don't know; there are very few things in the healthcare space that anybody does that is easy.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's a good point. Now that you've been in the role, well, at Oscar for a few years, what's next? What are the things that, like, you feel like are sort of motivating you each day you come to work?
\n\nNEETU: Oscar is in the ACA space, which serves primarily underserved communities. There have been, like, some recent examples of where people had to shutter doors in the ACA space. So the fact that we're still around and the fact that we're successful, like, we don't take that for granted. It's a really valuable thing to be able to survive in this market and to be able to grow.
\n\nWe launched a mission-driven tech-focused company ten years ago based on the belief that you could build your own tech stack and be successful in a very tightly controlled market. And I think this is the year that we actually had to just, like, really prove out the use case. So, this year, Oscar is 100% focused on being insure co profitable. And once we finish proving that out, next year, we're going to prove out that it is... Holdco can be profitable, which is all of our tech stack, in addition to all of our insurance business.
\n\nAnd I'm very, very much looking forward to Oscar being successful this year in the mission, where I think it's just proving out that you can build a successful business and ACA-powered by your own tech stack. And not compromising on the outcomes for our members is really valuable and keeps me very motivated.
\n\nAnd then, looking at the future, looking at being able to be 100% full company profitable and potentially selling our software for others so they could also bring this efficiency to their businesses is extremely motivating for me. And, as of right now, this is what the whole company is focused on. And we're all super excited about it.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, oftentimes, having a clear goal that everyone knows about and is working on can be really empowering for an organization, even if it's hard.
\n\nNEETU: Yeah. Like I said before, I think almost everybody I've interacted with at Oscar didn't come to Oscar, assuming it was going to be easy. They came to Oscar with full knowledge that it was going to be hard, but they were going to try anyway. So we are so close.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. And, you know, that's one of the things that, at thoughtbot, we skew to working with clients that do positive things for the world, that deserve to exist for precisely this reason, is when you have a positive purpose in your organization, it makes working hard easier, [laughs] or solving big problems easier because you know that you're going to have a positive impact when you do.
\n\nNEETU: Yeah. The personal healthcare story was a motivating factor towards going to go do something that was, like, going to be, like, positive for the world. I wish I could say, yes, I'm going to solve all of healthcare's problems and [inaudible 29:02] not that way.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. Well, that was actually what I was going to ask you about next is that's the thing about healthcare. And I've seen people almost get demoralized for it because you actually can't solve every problem. It's really difficult to solve all of healthcare. So, how do you sort of exist within that environment and not get demotivated?
\n\nNEETU: I think the more you dig into the problem, the more you realize how interconnected the way in, like, society, politics, money, power, and tech it really is. And it seems like if you try to solve the whole thing, it almost feels like you're going to boil the whole ocean. And it is definitely a blocker from even trying.
\n\nAnd, for me, it was just like, does that mean I stop? Do I apply the boy scout rule of, like, just trying to leave it better off, a whole lot better off, as much possible better off than I found it? I could do that. Or I could just go do something completely different. But there is no guarantee it's going to be as motivating or potentially as impacting. So, for me, it's very much about, like, if I could make even small changes, I know they'll be part of a greater whole. So I will just try to make those small changes because, alternatively, I may be neutral for the world at most.
\n\nCHAD: Well, Neetu, thank you so much for stopping by and sharing with us. I really appreciate it.
\n\nNEETU: Thank you very much for having me. It's been a great conversation.
\n\nCHAD: If folks want to get in touch with you or follow along, where are the best places for them to do that?
\n\nNEETU: I am easy to find on LinkedIn. I do have a Twitter account, but I'm not very active. It's @Nee2D2, and I look forward to hearing from people.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode, along with a complete transcript, at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you could find me on Mastodon @cpytel@thoughtbot.social.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks so much for listening, and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Neetu Rajpal.
Sponsored By:
Aaron Torres and Ala Shiban are from Klotho, which powers Infrastructure Copilot, the most advanced infrastructure design tool that understands how to define, connect, and scale your infrastructure-as-code.
\n\nVictoria talks to Aaron and Ala about the Klotho engine, Klotho the CLI tool, and InfraCopilot and how they work together to help enable developer teams to iterate on applications and features quickly.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Aaron Torres and Ala Shiban from Klotho, which powers Infrastructure Copilot, the most advanced infrastructure design tool that understands how to define, connect, and scale your infrastructure-as-code. Aaron and Ala, thank you for joining me.
\n\nALA: Thank you for having us.
\n\nAARON: Yeah, thank you very much.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, great. I wanted to just start with a little bit of a icebreaker; maybe tell me a little bit more about what the weather is like where you're currently at.
\n\nAARON: So I'm in St. Louis, Missouri. Right now, it is definitely...it feels like summer finally. So we're getting some nice, warm days and clear skies.
\n\nALA: And I'm in LA. And it's gloomier than I would like compared to what it's been in the last few years. But I'll take it if this means we're getting closer to summer.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And I'm not too far from you, Ala, in San Diego, and it's a little chillier than I would prefer as well. But that's what we get for living close to the beach. So there's always trade-offs.
\n\nWell, wonderful. I'm so excited to talk to you about your product here today. Let me start with a question about, let's say, I'm a non-technical founder, and I've just heard about your product. What's your pitch to someone in that position on the value of your tool?
\n\nALA: For somebody who isn't technical, I would say you can enable your team, your developer team, to quickly iterate on their applications or features and let InfraCopilot and Klotho take care of taking that application or features and deploy them and getting them running on the cloud.
\n\nVICTORIA: Okay. So maybe I've been thinking about having to hire an AWS engineer or someone who's an infrastructure engineer. I could consider getting a tool like Klotho and Infrastructure Copilot to allow my developers to take on more of that responsibility themselves.
\n\nALA: Absolutely.
\n\nVICTORIA: Gotcha. Okay, well, great. So let me ask about how did it all get started? What was the impetus that set you on this journey
\n\nALA: Both Aaron and I used to work at Riot Games, and I used to lead the cloud services org at Riot. I had about 50 people, 40 engineers, as part of a larger 120-person org, infrastructure platform org, which was tasked with building the platform that runs League of Legends, VALORANT, for 200 million people all around the world, in China. Full DevOps mode for Riot developers and full ops mode for running in China.
\n\nIt took us three years, a lot of effort. And by the time we were done, it was already legacy, and that seemed broken to me. We were already getting started to do another round of upgrades and iterations. At that point, I decided to leave. But I couldn't let go of this feeling that we shouldn't have had to spend so many years solving a problem only for it not to be solved. And based on research and conversations, it was clear that this was an industry-wide phenomena. And so I went about trying to figure out why that happens and then how we can solve it, and that's how Klotho came about.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's so interesting. And I've certainly been a part of similar situations where you spend so much time solving a big problem and infrastructure only to get to the end of it and realize now you have a whole nother set of problems. [laughs] And you get upgrade. And they've also invented new ways of doing things in the cloud that you want to be able to take advantage of.
\n\nSo you had that time with Riot Games and League of Legends and building this globally responsive infrastructure. What lessons learned did you take from that into building Klotho and building your product, Infrastructure Copilot?
\n\nAARON: We learned a bunch of things. One of the more difficult problems to solve isn't technical at all; it's organizational and understanding how the organization flows and how the different teams interact with each other. So we really endeavor to solve that problem. I mean, our product is a technical product, but it is meant to help bridge that gulf and make that problem a little bit easier as well.
\n\nOtherwise, yeah, exactly to your point, part of the problem with these migrations is that new technology comes along. And there's definitely a feeling of when you hire new developers, they are excited about the new thing, and there's other reasons as well. But you get this kind of natural, eternal migration going to the newer technology.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. And you bring up a great point on some of the issues, not being technical but organizational. And when I look at a lot of infrastructure-as-code tools, when we get to security, I wonder how it fits in with the organizational requirements for security, right? Like, you have to have defined groups who have defined access to different levels and have the tools in place to be able to manage identities in your organization. So I'm curious how that fits into what you built with Klotho and the Infrastructure Copilot.
\n\nALA: The way we think about infrastructure is as a set of intents or things that developers, and operators, cloud engineers, infrastructure engineers are trying to satisfy or to do. So you have tasks. You're trying to build a solution. You're trying to build an architecture or add something to it. And organizations have constraints, whether it's their own Terraform, or their own ruleset, or security expectations, or compliance expectations.
\n\nAnd the way we look at this dynamic is those rules are encoded in a way that Klotho, which is a cloud compiler, it has the ability to reason about both the application and the infrastructure-as-code and enforce or at least warn about mismatches between the constraints that the organization sets, and what the developer or operator are trying to do, or the intent that is being described high level or low level within the tools. And then that is reflected both visually and in code and in the infrastructure-as-code, one or more. And so it's very much rooted in how the entire set of technologies and product and tools are designed.
\n\nVICTORIA: Got it. So do you see the tool will be more fit for the market of larger development shops who maybe have existing infrastructure but want to experiment with a different way of managing it for their developers?
\n\nALA: It depends. So because we went about solving the problem rather than just building a specific vertical or a specific stack piece, we try to only play in this space of intelligent editing and intelligent understanding of the alignment between infrastructure and code. And so you could, as a developer, effectively with Klotho, write a plain application and have it be running in the cloud without knowing anything in the underlying cloud systems. It will set up storage, and persistence, and security, and secrets. All those elements are easily accessible within the code itself.
\n\nIt can also work in the context of a company where the infrastructure or platform team have set those rules and guidance within the tools. And then, developers can continue working the way they expect to work, either in code or in the infrastructure-as-code layer. And it would still allow them to do the same intents that they want only within that sandbox. Or if they can't be satisfied because they're trying to do something that isn't allowed, they have a mechanism of, one, knowing that but also asking, in our case, InfraCopilot to help it reshape what it's doing, what they're doing into the sandbox and the trade-offs that that brings in.
\n\nVICTORIA: Got it. So you can both start from scratch and start a brand new application using it, or you can integrate it with your existing rules and systems and everything that already exists.
\n\nALA: Exactly.
\n\nVICTORIA: Gotcha. Yeah, I think one interesting thing we've found with very new founders who are building their application for the first time is that there are some essential things, like, they don't even have an identity store like a Google [laughs] or Microsoft Azure Directory. So starting to work in the cloud, there are some basic elements you have to set up first that's a little bit of a barrier. So it sounds like what you're saying with Klotho is that you wouldn't necessarily have those same issues. Or how would you get that initial, like, cloud accounts set up?
\n\nAARON: Yeah. So, for the situation where you're bootstrapping everything from scratch, you've done nothing; we haven't invested much in setting up the initial accounts. But assuming you get to the point where you have AWS credentials, and you're able to hit the AWS API using the CLI, that's sort of where we can take over. So, yeah, like, I would say right now, as a business, it's definitely where the value is coming is going to be these mid-sized companies. But for that scenario specifically, bootstrapping and starting something from scratch, if you have that initial setup in place, it's one of the fastest ways to go from a concept to something running in the cloud.
\n\nALA: And if you think about the two tools that we're building, there's Klotho, which InfraCopilot...or the Klotho engine, which Klotho the CLI tool uses and InfraCopilot uses. The Klotho engine is responsible for the intelligence. It knows how to translate things like I want a web API that talks to DynamoDB. And it will literally create everything or modify everything that is needed to give you that and plug in your code.
\n\nYou can also say things in a much higher level degree, which things like I want a lambda which handles 10,000 users. And I want it to be lowest latency talking to an RDS Instance or to a Postgres database. And what that would do is, in our side, in the Klotho engine, we understand that there needs to be a VPC and subnets, and spin up RDS, and connect an RDS proxy. Because for connection pooling with lambda specifically, you need one to scale to that degree of scale. And so that is the intelligence that is built into the Klotho engine if you want to start from the infrastructure.
\n\nIf you want to start from code, all you have to do is bring in the Redis instance, the Redis SDK, and, let's say, your favorite web framework, and just add the annotations or the metadata that says, I want this web framework to be exposed to the internet, and I want this Redis to be persisted in the cloud. And you run Klotho. And what comes out the other end is the cloud version that does that for you. And it's one command away from getting it to run.
\n\nVICTORIA: So that's interesting how the two tools work together and how a developer might be able to get things spun up quickly on the cloud without having to know the details of each particular AWS service. And reading through your docs, it sounds like once you have something working in the cloud, then you'll also get automated recommendations on how to improve it for cost and reliability. Is that right?
\n\nALA: That's where we're headed.
\n\nVICTORIA: Gotcha. I'm curious; for Aaron, it sounds like there is more in that organizational challenges that you alluded to earlier. So you want to be able to deliver this capability to developers. But what barriers have you found organizationally to getting this done?
\n\nAARON: So I'm going to speak specifically on infrastructure here because I think this is one of the biggest ones we've seen. But typically, when you get to a larger-sized company, we'll call it a mid-sized company with, you know, a couple hundred engineers or more, you get to the point where it doesn't make sense for every team to own their entire vertical. And so you want to really put the cloud knowledge into a central team.
\n\nAnd so you tend to build either a platform team, or an infrastructure team, or a cloud team who sort of owns how cloud resources are provisioned, which ones they support, et cetera. And so, really, some of the friction I'm talking about is the friction between that team and developer teams who really just want to write their application and get going quickly. But you don't have to fall within the boundaries set by that central team.
\n\nTo give, like, a real concrete example of that, if you wanted to prototype a new technology, like, let's say that some new database technology came out and you wanted to use it, it's a very coordinated effort between both teams in terms of the roadmap. Like, the infrastructure team needs to get on that roadmap, that they need to make a sandbox and how that's going to work. The code team needs to make an application to test it. And the whole thing requires a lot more communication than just tech.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, no, I've been part of kind of one of those classic DevOps problems. It's where now you've built the ops team and the dev team, [laughs] and now you're back to those coordination issues that you had before. So, if I were a dev using Klotho or the infrastructure-as-code copilot, I would theoretically have access to any AWS sandbox account. And I could just spin up whatever I wanted [laughs] within the limits that could be defined by your security team or by your, you know, I'm sure there's someone who's setting a limit on the size of databases you could spin up for fun. Does that sound right?
\n\nAARON: Yeah, that's totally right. And in addition to just limits, it's also policies. So a good example is maybe in production for databases, you have a data retention policy. And you have something like we need to keep three months of backups for this amount of time. We want to make sure that if someone spins up a production database from any of those app teams, that they will follow their company policy there and not accidentally, like, lose data where it has to be maintained for some reason.
\n\nALA: That's an important distinction where we have our own set of, you know, best practice or rules that are followed roughly in the industry. But also, the key here is that the infrastructure central teams in every company can describe the different rulesets and guidelines, guardrails within the company on what developers can do, not only in low-level descriptions like instance sizes or how much something is, whether it's Spot Instances always or not in production versus dev. But also be able to teach the system when a developer says, "I want a database," spin up a Postgres database with this configuration that is wired to the larger application that they have.
\n\nOr, if I want to run a service, then it spins up the correct elements and configures them to work, let's say, Kubernetes pods, or lambdas, or a combination based on what the company has described as the right way for that company to do things. And so it gives flexibility to not know the specific details but still get the company's specific way of doing them.
\n\nAnd the key here is that we're trying to codify the communication patterns that do happen, and they need to happen if there's no tools to facilitate it between the infrastructure platform team and the feature teams. Only in this case, we try and capture that in a way that the central teams can define it. And the developers on feature teams can consume it without having as much friction.
\n\nVICTORIA: So that will be different than, like, an infrastructure team that's putting out everything in Terraform and doing pull requests based off GitHub repository to that. It makes it a little more easier to read, and understand, and share the updates and changes.
\n\nAARON: Right. And also, I mean, so, like, the thing you're describing of, like, the central team, having Terraform tends to be, like, these golden templates. Like they say, "If you want to make a database, here's your database template." And then you get a lot of interesting issues like drift, where maybe some teams are using the old versions of the templates, and they're not picking up the new changes. And how do you kind of reconcile all that? So it is meant to help with all of those things.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. And I'm curious, what questions came up in the customer discovery process for this product that surprised you?
\n\nALA: I think there's one...I don't know that it was a question, but I think there was...So, when we started with Klotho, Klotho has the ability to enable a code-first approach, which means that you give the tool to developers as the infrastructure or platform team, or if you're a smaller shop, then you can just use Klotho directly. You set the rules on what's allowed or what's not allowed, and then developers can work very freely. They can describe very succinctly how to turn a plain object, SDK, et cetera, how to build larger architectures very quickly with a few annotations that we describe and that give cloud powers.
\n\nWe had always thought that some teams will feel that this encroaches on their jobs. We've heard from people on infra, you know, platform teams, "This is amazing. But this is my job." And so, one of our hypotheses was that we are encroaching into what they see as their responsibility. And we built more and more mechanisms that would clean up that interface and give them the ability to control more so they can free themselves up, just like most automations that happen in the world, to do more things.
\n\nWhat happened later surprised us. And by having a few or several more discoveries, we found out that the feeling isn't a fear of the tool replacing their job. The fear or worry is that the tool will make their jobs boring, what is left of the job be boring, and nobody wants to go to work and not have cool and fun things to do. And because I think we all, on a certain degree, believe that, you know, if we take away some of the work that we're doing, we'll find something higher level and harder to solve, but until that exists in people's minds, there's nothing there. And therefore, they're left with whatever they don't want to do or didn't want to do.
\n\nAnd so that's where we tried to take a step back from all the intelligence the Klotho engine provides through that code-first Klotho. And we built out focusing on one of the pillars in the tech to create InfraCopilot, which helps with keeping or making the things that we already do much simpler but also in a way that maintains and does it in a fun way.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense because my understanding of where to use AI and where to use machine learning for best purposes is to automate those, like, repetitive, boring tasks and allow people to focus on the creative and more interesting work, right?
\n\nALA: Yes and no. The interesting bit about our approach to ML is that we don't actually use machine learning or ChatGPT for any of the intelligence layers, meaning we don't ask ChatGPT to generate Terraform or any kind of GPT model to analyze a certain aspect of the infrastructure. That is all deterministic and happens in the Klotho engine. That is the uniqueness of why this always works rather than if GPT happened to get it right.
\n\nWhat we use ML for is the ability to parse the intent. So we actually use it as a language model to parse the intent from what the user is trying to convey, meaning I want a lambda with an API gateway. What we get back from our use of ML is the user has asked for a lambda, an AWS lambda, and API gateway and that they be connected. That is the only thing we get back. And that is fed into the Klotho engine. And then, we do the intelligence to translate that to an actual architecture.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's a really cool way to use natural language processing to build cloud infrastructure.
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\n\nVICTORIA: I'm curious; you said you're already working on some issues about being able to suggest improvements for cost reduction and efficiencies. What else is on your roadmap for what's coming up next?
\n\nAARON: So there's a bunch of things in the long-term roadmap. And I'll say that, like, in the short term, it's much more about just expanding the breadth of what we support. If you think about just generating all the different permutations and types of infrastructure, it's, like, a huge matrix problem. Like, there's many, many dimensions that you could go in. And if you add an extra cloud or you add an extra capability, it expands everything. So you can imagine, like, testing it to make sure things work, and everything becomes very complicated. So, really, a lot of what we're doing is still foundational and trying to just increase the breadth, make the intent processing more intelligent, make the other bits work.
\n\nAnd then one of the areas right now is for our initial release of the product; we chose to use Discord as our interface for the chatbot. And the reason for that is because it gives us a lot of benefits of having sort of the community built in and the engagement built in where we can actually talk with users and try and understand what they're doing.
\n\nHowever, we really have a lot of UI changes and expansions that we'd like to do. And even from some of our early demo material, we have things like being able to right-click and being able to configure your lambda directly from the UI. So there's a lot of areas there that we can expand into an intent, too, once we get sort of the foundational stuff done, as an example.
\n\nThe intelligence bit is a much bigger process, like, there's a lot of things to unpack there. So I won't talk about it too much. But if we were to just talk about the most simple things, it'd be setting up alerts somehow and then feeding into our system that, like, we're hitting those alerts, and we have to make modifications. A good example of that would be, like, configuring auto scaling on an instance for [inaudible 22:17]. So we can get some of those benefits now. The bigger vision of what we want to do with optimization requires a lot more exploration and also the ability to look at what's happening to your application while it's running in the cloud.
\n\nALA: Let me maybe shed a bit more light on the problems we're trying to solve and where we're headed. When it comes to optimization, to truly optimize a cloud application, you have to reason about it on the application level rather than on the one service level. To do that, we have to be able to look at the application as an application. And today, there's a multi-repo approach to building cloud applications.
\n\nSo one of the future work that we're going to do is be able to reason about existing infrastructure-as-code from different portions of the teams or organization or even multiple services that the same team works and link them together. So, when we look at reasoning about an architecture, it is within the entire context of the application rather than just the smaller bits and pieces. That's one layer.
\n\nAnother layer is being able to ingest the real runtime application metrics and infrastructure metrics, let's say, from AWS or Azure into the optimizer system to be able to not only say, oh well, I want low latency. Then this is hard-coded to use a Fargate instance instead of a lambda. But more realistically, being able to see what that means in lambda world and maybe increase the concurrency count.
\n\nBecause we know that within the confines of cost limitations or constraints that the company wants to have, it is more feasible and cost-effective to raise the minimum concurrency rate of that lambda instead of using Fargate. You can only do that by having real-time data, or aggregated data come from the performance characteristics of the applications. And so that's another layer that we're going to be focusing on.
\n\nThe third one is, just like Aaron said, being able to approach that editing experience and operational experience, not just through one system like InfraCopilot but also through a web UI, or an app, or even as an extension to other systems that want to integrate with Klotho's engine.
\n\nThe last thing that I think is key is that we're still holding on to the vision that infrastructure should be invisible to most developers. Infrastructure definition is similar to how we approach assembly code. It's the bits and pieces. It's the underlying components, the CPUs, the storage. And as long as we're building microservices in that level of fidelity, of like, thinking about the wiring and how things interconnect, then we're not going to get the gains of 10x productivity building cloud applications. We have to enable developers and operators to work on a higher abstraction.
\n\nAnd so our end game, where we're headed, is still what we want to build with Klotho, which is the ability to write code and have it be translated into what's allowed in the infrastructure within the constraints of the underlying platforms that infrastructure or platform teams set for the rest of the organization. It can be one set or multiple sets, but it's still that type of developers develop, and the infrastructure teams set them up to be able to develop, and there's separation.
\n\nVICTORIA: Those are all really interesting problems to be solving. I also saw on your roadmap that you have published on Klotho that you're thinking of open-sourcing Klotho on GitHub.
\n\nAARON: So, at this point, we already have the core engine of Klotho open-sourced, so the same engine that's powering InfraCopilot and Klotho, the tool itself is open source today. So, if anyone wants to take a look, it is on github.com/klothoplatform/klotho.
\n\nVICTORIA: Super interesting. And it sounds like you mentioned you have a Discord. So that's where you're also getting feedback from developers on how to do this. And I think that challenge you mentioned about creating abstractions so that developers don't have to worry as much about the infrastructure and platform teams can just enable them to get their work done; I'm curious what you think is the biggest challenge with that. It seems like a problem that a lot of companies are trying to solve. So, what's the biggest challenge? And I think what do you think is unique about Klotho and solving that challenge?
\n\nAARON: I guess what I would say the biggest challenge today is that every company is different enough that they all saw this in a slightly different way. So it's like, right now, the tools that are available are the building blocks to make the solution but not the solution itself. So, like, every cloud team approaches it on, let's build our own platform. We're building our own platform that every one of our developers is going to use. In some cases, we're building, like, frameworks and SDKs that everyone's going to use. But then the problem is that you're effectively saying my company is entering the platform management business. And there's no way the economies of scale will make sense forever in that world. So I think that's the biggest issue.
\n\nAnd I think the reason it hasn't been solved is it's just a very hard problem. There's many approaches, but there's not a clear solution that kind of brings it all together. And I think our product is positioned better than most to solve some of the higher-level abstractions. It still doesn't solve the whole problem. There's still some things that are going to be tricky. But the idea is, if you can get to the point where you're using some of our abstractions, then you've guaranteed yourself portability into the future, like, your architecture will be able to evolve, even in technologies that don't exist yet once they become available.
\n\nALA: To tack on to what Aaron said, a key difference, and to our knowledge, this doesn't exist in any other tool or technology, is a fundamentally new architecture we call adaptive architecture. It is not microservices. It is not monoliths. It's a superset that combines all the benefits from monoliths, microservices, and serverless if you consider it a different platform or paradigm. What that means is that you get the benefits without the drawbacks. And the reason we can do it is because of the compiler approach that we're taking, where everything in the architecture that we produce is interchangeable.
\n\nThe team has decided to use Kubernetes, a specific version of Kubernetes with Istio. That works great. And, a year later, it turns out that that choice no longer scales well for the use. And we need to use Linkerd. The problem in today's world and what companies have to do is retrofit everything and not only the technology itself, but it's the ripple effects of changing it into everything else that all the other choices that were made that depended on it.
\n\nIn the Klotho world, because of the compilation step or the compilation approach and its extensibility, you could say, I want to take out Istio and replace it with Linkerd. And it would percolate all the changes that need to happen everywhere for that to maintain its semantic behavior. To our knowledge, that doesn't exist anywhere today.
\n\nVICTORIA: So it would do, maybe not, like, would do migrations for you as well?
\n\nALA: I think migrations are a special case. When it comes to stateless things, yes. When it comes to data, we are much more conservative. Again, bringing what we've learned in different companies in, a lot of solutions try to solve all the things versus we're trying to play in a very specific niche, which is the adaptive architecture of it all.
\n\nBut if you want to move data, there's fantastic tools for it, and we will guide you through getting the access to the actual underlying services and, say, great, write a migration system, or we can generate for you. But you will run it to move the data from, let's say, Postgres to MySQL or from being able to drain a unit on Kubernetes to a lambda. Some of those things are much more automatic. And the transition happened through the underlying technologies like Terraform or Pulumi. Others will require you to take a step, not because we can't do it for you but we want to be conservative with the choices.
\n\nAARON: I would also add that another aspect of this is that we don't position ourselves as being the center of the universe for these teams. Like a lot of products, you kind of have to adopt the platform, and everything has to plug into it, and if you don't adhere, it doesn't work.
\n\nWe're trying very, very hard with our design to make it so that existing apps will continue to function like they've always functioned. If app developers want to continue using direct SDKs and managing config themselves, they can absolutely do that. And then they'll interact well with Klotho apps that are also in that same company. So we're trying to make it so that you can adopt incrementally without having to go all in.
\n\nVICTORIA: So that makes a lot of sense. So it's really helpful if you're trying to swap out those stateless parts of your infrastructure and you want to make some changes there. And then, if you were going to do a data migration, it would help you and guide you to where additional tools might be needed to do that. And at your market segment, you're really focusing on having it be an additional tool, as opposed to, like, an all-encompassing platform. Did I get it all right?
\n\n[crosstalk 31:07]
\n\nALA: Exactly.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs] Cool. All right. Well, that's exciting. That's a lot of cool things that you all are working on. I'm curious how overall the workload is for you two. How big of a team do you have so far? How are you balancing out this work of creating something new and exciting that has such a broad potential scope?
\n\nAARON: Yeah. So, right now, the team is currently six people. So it's Ala and I, plus four additional engineers is the current team. And in terms of, like, where we're focusing, the real answer is that it's somewhat reactive, and it's very fast. So, like, it could be, like...in fact, Copilot went from ideation to us acting on it extremely quickly. And it wasn't even in the pipeline before that. So I'd actually say the biggest challenge has been where do we sort of focus our energy to get the best results? And a lot of where we spend our time is sort of meta-process of, like, making sure we're investing in the right things.
\n\nALA: And I think that comes from both Aaron and I have been in the industry for over 15 years. We don't, you know, drop everything and now switch to something new. We're very both tactical and strategic with the pace and when we pivot. But the idea is when we decide to change and focus on something that we think will be higher value, and it's almost always rooted in the signals and hypotheses that we set out to kind of learn from, from every iteration that we go after.
\n\nWe are not the type that would say, "Oh, we saw this. Let's drop everything, and let's go do it." I think we've seen enough in the industry that there's a measure of knowing when to switch, and when to refocus, and what to do when these higher tidbits come, and then being able to execute aggressively when that choice or decision happens.
\n\nVICTORIA: Are there any trends that you're watching right now that the outcome would influence a change in direction for you?
\n\nALA: Not technically. I think what we're seeing in the industry is there's no real approaches to solving the problem. I would say most of the solutions and trends that we're seeing are...I call them streamlined complexity. We choose a set of technologies, and we make that easy. We make the SaaS version, and it can do these workloads, and it makes that easy. But the minute you step out of the comfort zone of those tools, you're back into the nightmare that building distributed systems brings with it, and then you're back to, you know, square one.
\n\nWhat we're trying to do is fundamentally solve the problem. And we haven't seen many at least make a lot of headway there. We are seeing a few of the startups that are starting to think in the same vein, which is the zeitgeist. And that's fantastic. We actually work with them closely to try and broaden the category.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. Do you feel that other companies who are working in a similar problem space that there is...is it competitive between each other? Or do you think it's actually more collaborative?
\n\nALA: It depends on the companies and what they're trying to achieve. Every set of companies have different incentives. So Google, Amazon, and Microsoft have, you know, are incentivized to keep you on their clouds. They may care less about what they have in there as long as you are happy to stay. So you'll see more open source being adopted. You will see Amazon trying to copy or operationalize a lot of open-source tools. Microsoft will give their...because they are working with larger companies to have more vertical solutions. Google is trying to catch up.
\n\nIf you look at startups, you will see some focus more on developers. You'll see others focus on infra team. So it really depends on the intersection of the companies, and then they either collaborate or they compete, depending on how it affects their strategy.
\n\nIn our case, we recognize that our competition is the incumbents and the current way of doing things. And so we are happy to collaborate with all the startups that are doing something in the vicinity of what we're doing, startups like Ampt, and Encore, and Winglang. And there's several others. We have our own Slack channel where we talk about, like, where we're headed or at least what we can do to support one another.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. And I wonder if that's part of your business decision to open source your product as well or if there are other factors involved.
\n\nALA: I think the biggest factor that we've seen, realistically, is the expectation in the developer community to have a core that is open source, not even the source available model but to have an open-source core that they can rely on always existing and referencing when, you know if the company disappears or Oracle buys them. And so I would say that that was the biggest determining factor in the end to open-sourcing the Klotho engine. It's a very pragmatic view.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. Well, I wanted to make sure we had time to ask one of my favorite questions that I ask on the podcast, and you can both answer. But if you could go back in time to when you first started this project, what advice would you give yourself?
\n\nALA: I guess the advice that I would give is keep selling and start selling as early as you can, even before the vision is realized. Or let's say you're making kind of headway towards what you'll wind up sharing and giving companies, the lead time to creating the opportunities and the belief and the faith that you can solve problems for companies, and the entire machinery of doing that is a lot more complex than most founders, I think, or at least first-time founders or, honestly, myself have found it to be.
\n\nAARON: Yeah. If I try and answer that same question, it's very challenging. I guess my perspective now is there's nothing I could tell myself that would make me go any faster because a lot of it really is the journey. Like, the amount of stuff that we've learned in the last year of working on this and exploring and talking with people and everything else has been so vast that there's nothing I can communicate to past me that would prepare me any better. So [laughs] I think I would try just my best to be encouraging to just stick with it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, that's good. And who knows what you're going to learn in the next year that [laughs] probably might not help you in the past either? That's wonderful. Do you have any final takeaways for our listeners today or anything you'd like to promote?
\n\nALA: So, from my lens, I've always wanted to do a startup but felt that the life setting wasn't quite ready. And a lot of the startup culture is talking about younger, earlier founders. I think having had the industry experience and understanding both the organizational and technical challenges, knowing more people, and engineers, and founders, potential founders, has been vastly more helpful than what I would have been able to pull off ten years ago. So, if you are thinking maybe it's too late, it is not. It's probably easier in some regards now. And yeah, check out InfraCopilot. It's on infracopilot.io. We would love to have you try it out and go on this journey with us.
\n\nAARON: Yeah, I would definitely echo that. I mean, sort of the same thing on the journey. Like, it's never too late to start. And yeah, like, I would say being in the industry and actually seeing these problems first-hand makes it so much more fulfilling to actually try and solve them.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's [inaudible 38:15]. I'm excited to see what you all accomplish. And I appreciate you coming on the show.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you could find me on Twitter @victori_ousg or on Mastodon @vguido@thoughtbot.social.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guests: Aaron Torres and Ala Shiban.
Sponsored By:
Brendan Schwartz is the Co-Founder and CTO of Wistia, software that makes it easy to find, engage, and grow your audience with video.
\n\nVictoria talks to Brendan about the latest updates on the platform, interesting problems he found that Wistia was able to remove and help his team get to speed and velocity, and the personal value that drives his decision-making.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Brendan Schwartz, Co-Founder and CTO of Wistia, software that makes it easy to find, engage, and grow your audience with video. Brendan, thank you for joining us.
\n\nBRENDAN: Thanks so much for having me.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I believe this will be your third time, at least, on the Giant Robots Podcast, right?
\n\nBRENDAN: Yes, I think this is my third appearance. Thank you for having me back.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes.
\n\nBRENDAN: Is there anything I receive? What is it when you host SNL in a [crosstalk 00:39].
\n\nVICTORIA: You get a jacket.
\n\nBRENDAN: A jacket, yeah.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, we should.
\n\nBRENDAN: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: We should do a Giant Robots jacket or something from returned guests. I love it. So it's been great to follow along your journey here. So, for those who don't know, like, what is Wistia? And I'll say, just a precursor, that thoughtbot is a client of Wistia. So we use it ourselves. But why don't you just give us a little bit about what is the product and what makes it different?
\n\nBRENDAN: Sure. And thank you so much for being a customer all these years. You kind of hit it at the top, but we help businesses of all sizes thrive with video. And so we serve mostly marketers. To dive a little bit into the history of the business, we'll be around seven...is that right? 17 years. It sounds like a long time when I say it out loud, [laughs] 17 years this June. And, for most of our history, we were, I'd say, a video-hosting platform for marketers. So if you want to put video on your website, track who's watching it, how they're watching it, and integrate that data with your other marketing systems, that was our focus and what we did.
\n\nAnd over, I'd say, the past two years, we've brought in that focus to help businesses with all aspects of their video marketing from creating video...We recently introduced a live video product for webinars and for live events last fall. We just launched last week, which I'm very excited about native video recording in the Wistia platform. So you can record your webcam and your screen. And there's also a very simple video editor in the platform, which has been really powerful for folks to make small adjustments to content or to atomize content, take out highlights or sections of things, and to be able to publish them to their audiences.
\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you for providing that context. And I'm curious if there were any, like, environmental or market forces that pushed you in that direction with the latest updates on the platform.
\n\nBRENDAN: So, like I mentioned, we...in a large part, our success came (We're a relatively small team.) it came from being focused. And so for, you know, that decade or more, there were a lot of things that we had heard from the market or from customers. Like, live video was an obvious one we had been asked for a really long time. When will Wistia do live? When will Wistia do live? And, you know, our approach to that is we want to be really good and excellent at the things that we do and be focused. And I think that has served us well over the time that we've existed.
\n\nAnd some of that came out of; I'd say, the really early days of the company where...it's funny, [laughs] we've always built Wistia, you know, sometimes we say in the shadow of YouTube, so YouTube and seeing YouTube. My co-founder was the first person who showed me YouTube in 2005, I think it was, and that was part of the inspiration to start Wistia. We are both really into video. And we saw that and having video be more accessible on the web, we knew was something that was going to change the world.
\n\nThere was a question...this sounds kind of dated nowadays to say, but there was a question if you were starting a business, you know, let’s say, in 2006 or 2007 or '8, right? What are you going to do when Google enters your space? [laughs] It was a funny one for us to answer because we said...well, I forgot when YouTube was bought by Google. It was maybe in 2006 or something like that. Like, Google is already in our space, and it's free. So that was always an interesting challenge.
\n\nAnd the way that we were successful there [laughs]...obviously, YouTube is at a much larger scale [laughs] and level of success than Wistia is. But to the extent we have a business at all against a very well-known and free competitor from those early days, it was being really focused on our customers and keeping the product footprint fairly small.
\n\nOur business changed a lot during the pandemic. There were some obvious things, right? Video was used a lot more. So existing customers had a lot more usage. We saw an influx of customers, people who maybe were late to adopt video in their organization, and then that became a much obvious way that people could reach their audiences and grow. So that was something of a tailwind for us.
\n\nAnd then it also forced us to kind of take a step back and look at the market in general with clear eyes. It was a funny moment, I think, for me and my co-founder because in the years leading up to that, you know, it had been like 12,13 years of doing Wistia, and it felt like we had solved a lot of problems in the product. We were still building new things, but they were for the most mature part of our audience or the most advanced marketers, which was pretty fun. But it felt like a lot of the problems had been solved. We were always, like, is the product done? Is the product complete?
\n\nAnd when we took a step back and looked at the market, what we had found was that we had kind of just, like, got ourselves into this, you know, more mature corner of the market. But in a large part, because of COVID, so many businesses, existing and new businesses, were very new to video and were using video in new ways. And people who had been using video, their solutions to do that were super fragmented.
\n\nYou'd have one product that is providing...[laughs] You might have a different product you're using for internal meetings, video meetings, and that's different than a live event product, that's different than a webinar product, that's different than where you might publish your videos or host your videos, which is different than how you'd, like, analyze your performance.
\n\nAnd as video became more important to organizations, that fragmentation of the solutions was something that was super painful. And we had heard from a lot of people who were Wistia customers and people who were not...having this as an all-in-one platform was something that they really desired, which I was also kind of, you know, we were, like, cynical about a little bit, right?
\n\nBecause if [laughs] you're in the world of product, it's like you can ask, you know, if you had a magic wand, what would you want? And someone says, "Oh, I want it all in one. And if you could just do everything for me, that would be so great." You know, it's hard to say, is that what people really want? And what gave us more confidence at that was, correct, is when we started digging into some of the details and hearing about existing workflows that existed that marketers have to deal with, including ourselves. We do a lot of content marketing.
\n\nA lot of the really interesting things you could do in a product that is all in one it opens up new opportunities. And you could just imagine...you've hosted a webinar before. Almost always, it's the best practice that you host a webinar; after you're finished, you probably have a good marketing asset there. You should publish it to your website. You usually need to do some light editing. Maybe you're going to take off the Q&A before you publish it. And you put it on your website.
\n\nAnd then, a while later, you're like, was this effective? Did it work? And then you have to, you know, probably have a spreadsheet somewhere. You have to go into the tool used to host the webinar to figure out who was watching it and [laughs] who registered. Did they attend? And then where's the data for how it performed on your website? How many people watched it? Did you get subscribers if you were, you know, had an email gate on that content? It's cumbersome, and it's a mess.
\n\nAnd then, you know, the most motivated people who are well-resourced have the time to do that and analyze the performance. But then a lot of marketers who are on smaller teams they just don't have time to do that, which means a lot of content gets under-utilized or under-marketed. So a lot of evidence and motivation to change what we were doing and expand the product footprint. So that had us make a big investment in our product design and engineering teams, and we almost...we doubled them in about 18 months. And then that kind of set us on this journey that we started maybe two years ago to greatly expand what we're doing.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, that's great. So just to play that back, staying close and focused on your customers almost had you to a point of being stable with your product until COVID happened. And you have this increased demand for video that opened it up to almost have Wistia be like a startup again and create a whole new feature branch, right?
\n\nBRENDAN: Yeah, that's exactly right. And that was really fun and motivating. I mean, we...that early-stage energy and not having all the answers to things where stuff is a little bit, you know, less-researched, and it's faster paced is something that I really like. That was a big shift for the company. So there was some, I don't know, I think we had some self-doubt a little bit if I'm honest, of, you know, when you've been so focused for so long. Like, can we do this?
\n\nLike, will we be able to create something really good with this expanded footprint, and what resources that take? And is it going to take shifting the culture and mindset of the team, like, in ourselves? But, I don't know, that's kind of why I started the [laughs] business in the first, like, the adventure and not knowing what's next is very appealing. So that's been the fun part of it.
\n\nVICTORIA: And how did you go about shifting that mindset? Or even what was the moment where you realized that you needed to go after this shift? And how did you start lobbying everyone around you to get on board?
\n\nBRENDAN: A lot of those customer interviews and market interviews, we worked with an outside firm. We worked with Boston Consulting Group, who was a really great partner. We have obviously worked with folks outside. We hadn't worked with somebody; I'd say, at that scale in terms of kind of, like, tie-in with our company strategy today. But that was really helpful to have a partner, especially to push us. We got to something different than we had been doing, I mean, not dramatically so. But it was expanding what we were doing.
\n\nSo that was really helpful. It helped...that put some structure around it to what we had, and the whole company knew this was happening and was along for the ride. So I'd say the communication and getting to a clear strategy was something we did pretty well, and telling that story internally. I'd say where we didn't do as well [laughs] and were maybe late to make some decisions is how the culture would need to change to support that strategy.
\n\nAgain, like I said, we've doubled the product design and engineering teams. That is now feeling in a pretty good spot, but that was a lot of growth for us. And was, I'd say, pretty messy along the way. So the beginning, I'd say, was clear, and I think communicated well. And then I feel like in the middle it was, I don't know, a big mess where we got maybe a year in, and we're like, wow, we have this new strategy, but we really haven't executed much on it.
\n\nSome of these things we're building are taking a lot longer than we thought. Our velocity doesn't feel great. Like, maybe we didn't plan some of this stuff out. Like, we've hired a lot of people, but, like, are they productive yet? And so, yeah, I think we were in a pretty [laughs] tough spot maybe last summer. We were a year into this strategic shift, but it didn't feel like we were really moving against it as much as we had hoped.
\n\nVICTORIA: It makes sense that it would take some time to change strategic direction and then get to that high-velocity point that you would expect. Were there other blockers that you found you were able to remove to get the team back up to that high velocity on delivering features for clients?
\n\nBRENDAN: [laughs] Well, it's funny that you say that. I wish; I mean, that is pretty obvious, I think, and obvious in retrospect. But, for some reason, when you're in this, or when we were in this, you're impatient, and you want it faster. And I think probably [laughs] having some clear expectations would have made the ride a little smoother along the way for this. I feel like I have to remind myself of this pretty frequently.
\n\nI mean, Wistia is not big. We're 180 people or so but certainly bigger than...I can think back to various other sizes. Doing that strategic shift it takes time for leadership, let's say, or me to shift my mindset about some of those things. And then once you've changed your mind, you kind of... it's easy, or at least for me, to discount the time it took and all the information it took to lead to that, which needs to cascade through an organization. And so that's where some of that impatience...or just the piece you said about, yeah, it makes sense that this would take time. I was like --
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs] [inaudible 11:56]
\n\nBRENDAN: [laughter] You're like, once you've got it, you're like, wow, this is so exciting. Let's go. Let's go. And everybody is like, what are you talking about?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. My background has been in, like, Federal IT consulting. So you're used to kind of the pace of things being a little slower. And I think people forget that as an organization gets to any amount of size, that kind of bureaucracy tends to creep in. And, like you're saying, the information just needs to cascade down throughout everybody. I think my original question was, were there any blockers or interesting problems you found that you were able to remove and help your team get to that speed or velocity you really wanted?
\n\nBRENDAN: Yeah, there were a lot. I think most of them and most of the hardest ones to move centered around cultural change, and they weren't necessarily so clear at the onset. And so, you know, one thing that kind of partway into the strategy change that became clear is, and you had said it, it's like going from, you know, basically thinking of ourselves as being in a late stage or more mature market to being in an early-stage environment. And the type of culture that, you know, succeeds in those worlds is different.
\n\nOne thing that we've learned along the way at Wistia that we have employed and I think been successful with is this concept that when you update your strategy as a company, you should be thoughtful and, like, make conscious updates to your culture and values. And so much is that...so you're saying culture is the way that you work. You want that to be in support of strategy. And I remember when I first heard this concept, and we were earlier into our journey. I was like, what is this, like, corporate nonsense? Culture is just this, like, intangible, you know, it's this sum of how everyone works. And it's, like, this beautiful symphony of values. [laughs]
\n\nIt was a more kind of, like, idealistic [laughs] view of it or more organic view of it, which I think is reasonable. But you can also be intentional about your culture. So when we wrestled with that the first time...this was many years ago when we updated. I forgot even what the strategic changes at the time. But we updated our values, and we set about making a conscious cultural change. So when we changed the strategy this time, we did the same thing. I'd say we were a little bit late doing it, like, getting to it. But we did do it.
\n\nAnd so some of that was there were certain things...so, for instance, being so focused. We had a really lean team. And we were optimizing for things like predictability of outcomes and needing to be correct. So, for instance, if you're only going to make...let's just, like, say, on the product side. Like, if you're only going to be able to ship or do, you know, a few big improvements to the product per year, like, you're well served to kind of go slowly and make sure those have a reasonable chance of success. This was, like, the culture and the mode that we were in.
\n\nThat doesn't really work very well when you're in an early-stage environment where things are pretty unpredictable and things are moving really quickly. So that was an example of something that we kind of identified, and we're like, we're going to need to change this. So it was this shift from teams feeling the need to be correct and really well-researched about something to moving towards; I'd say, you need to talk to a lot of customers to build customer intuition in order to make decisions faster.
\n\nBut that shouldn't be the case that; for every product decision you need to make, you have to talk to 5 or 10 customers to validate that. You should be able to build an intuition to be able to make those decisions faster, and we should be more tolerant of failure. And so, we should work in a more incremental style. I mean, some of this is, like, super familiar to anybody [laughs] listening to this, right? It's like a more agile style. So work more incrementally, like, work incrementally towards great as opposed to, you know, this big thing that's going to be super polished and correct from the jump.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think that's really interesting. And it's not necessarily wrong to be so thorough in your changes when you're in that steady state, and you, like, know what clients you have, and you have a pretty well-defined product. But it's interesting that it took quite a bit of effort, it sounds like, to shift back into a flow state where you're incrementally doing changes very frequently to get that new product and find those new customers that you're targeting.
\n\nBRENDAN: And it continues to be. We've made a lot of progress on this. And maybe it's helpful...I don't know if it's helpful to folks listening to dive into some of the details of how we went about making those changes. It's still really difficult, right? There's a lot of things in tension.
\n\nSo I'd say in our previous mode, one thing we were pretty good about is when something was released, it was well-tested. It was high quality. It was, like, well-communicated. Throughout the org, people knew what was coming. Obviously, there were hiccups with that, but, like, that's the side of the spectrum that we were on there.
\n\nAnd then in this mode where we're building faster and more incrementally, we have a lot of internal tension in terms of quality, like, is this good enough? Is this first version good enough? Are we going to make a bad first impression? And so, obviously, you do this for a...it's a set of trade-offs, right? There's no free lunch, but that is still very much we're trying to find the right balance.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. So, like, in your role as CTO, how do you make people feel comfortable failing [laughs] [inaudible 17:06] describing.
\n\nBRENDAN: Some of this cultural change, I think, it's been interesting to go through because some of the properties of how we had been working are, you know, things that are part of the way I like to work. Like, it makes me uncomfortable to release something that you know the flaws in it. And that's an old kind of startup advice that I think is generally right. Like, if you release something and it doesn't make you a little bit uncomfortable, you have waited too long. [laughs] Advice is very easy and abstract. It's hard to apply. Like, there's a huge spectrum there of, like, how uncomfortable [laughs] you want to be.
\n\nBut I will say that that's been something that's been, yeah, hard to reconcile with. And I guess that the piece that I'm able to do in my role is, like, remind folks where we're headed, right? So the first version can be a bit rough. What matters is what happens after that. So, if we're quick to listen to customers, to fix those things, to correct that, and people can see that momentum, I think that matters for a lot. And I think that's, like, something...I've been telling that story repeatedly.
\n\nInternally, I've had other leaders, and that's what we've really been leaning on is, like, we've adjusted how we're delivering customer value. And that we're going to push things out that might be a little bit more raw, but where we ultimately are going to get them to and get them to quickly is something that we're really proud of. So that has helped. And then, I'd say we still haven't figured out, which is, again, like, in these smaller increments, things can be a failure, and that's okay as long as we learn something and correct and move forward.
\n\nAnd one thing that's been a little bit tricky to recognize, too, is there's some places where you have some experiment, and you're not actually sure if there's a market or if there's a need for a feature. So you might do something, and it really doesn't land well. And then you learn something about the market or the customer base and say, okay, that isn't what people needed.
\n\nBut, in a lot of places that we're building product, like, let's say, take live video, for example. [laughs] When we launch a live video product, it may be a failure. Like, the first version may not be completely right or may be a failure. But the customer need for [laughs] a live video for a webinar exists, right? So that's not the type of failure that you go, oh, I guess there's not [laughs] a market there. Or, it's like, you go back and say, okay, how do we need to improve this to make it work?
\n\nI don't think we have the right language internally around that. You know, there are certain areas where it's like a failure, and then it's like, okay, we've learned not to do that again. And there's other areas where it's like, we're going to keep...[laughs] not we're going to keep failing. I mean, there are goals to succeed, right? But we're going to keep improving this until we get it to work because we know there is a market here, and there is a customer need.
\n\nVICTORIA: Making a culture where it's acceptable to run experiments [chuckles] and as long as you're learning from the failures. And honestly, it sounds like you all are very connected to your customer. Like, you're talking to them regularly. You're testing out features with them and getting that feedback. And that sounds like that's really what you want to focus on and want your whole team to focus on.
\n\nBRENDAN: Yes, yeah, exactly.
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\n\nVICTORIA: You mentioned a little bit about your values. So, what would you say is, like, your most important personal value that drives your decision-making at Wistia?
\n\nBRENDAN: So, like I mentioned, we've changed our values over time when we've changed strategy. And we think of our values as a decision-making framework, not as a set of things that we value. For instance, if you go on our website on wistia.com, I think about/values, about/company. It's somewhere. And you can see our values. It's not a list of everything that Wistia values or even the things that we value the most.
\n\nFor example, Wistia has, like, creativity is something that I value a lot that is very built into Wistia's culture that we value a lot, but it's not a listed value. It used to be at one point, and then we found that as a decision-making tool, it wasn't very helpful. [laughs] If you're faced with a decision, and you say, okay, one of the values is creativity, how do I make this more creative, right?
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs]
\n\nBRENDAN: That's not usually the question you want to ask. So we have, over the years, shifted towards the values are a decision-making framework. And I'd say the one value that has stood the test of time in there is simplicity, which is not unique to Wistia, but it's something that I care a lot about personally. It's served us well as a business.
\n\nIt's almost always harder to get to a simple solution or answer than it is to get to a complex one. It takes a lot of failure. Sometimes there isn't a simple solution, but I think it's always worth the pursuit of trying to find one. And that's served us well in keeping a focused and easy-to-use product. I think that's fairly self-evident [laughs] why that matters to customers. And it's something that I think it's hard to do as you grow, and add, and get bigger. And it's an important feature of the product. And it's an important feature of, I don't know, companies' internal policies or the employee experience.
\n\nThe simpler something is, it's easier to understand. I think the more someone who works inside your company can wrap their arms around more of that context or, you know, more of the product, more of the all the ins and outs of how it is to work there, the better informed they'll be, the better faster they'll be able to make decisions, and the better work they'll be able to do. So, yeah, simplicity, minimalism, those are things I think that have served us well over the years.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, I appreciate that. I could see how that could apply to how you're writing your code, or how you're designing a feature, or even your pricing structure.
\n\nBRENDAN: Yeah, and I don't think...we definitely don't always get it right. So, you know, all of this is aspirational, but I think it's the right thing to aspire to.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. Oh, I'm familiar. [laughter] It's like that, I mean, the Marie Kondo, like, keeping it simple and organized. It's definitely aspirational [laughter] in my personal life as well. But that makes sense. Okay, I have a fun one for you. What is your favorite viral video style that you think people should do more of on Wistia? [laughs]
\n\nBRENDAN: Oh, whoa. That's a hot-button one. [laughs] I think we have long said...this, like, feels like it takes me back to when we first started Wistia. The term viral and viral video was a new thing for the internet, I guess because video on the internet was still fairly new. I've always been on the side of this, like, hardworking video. And most of our customers are B2B businesses, so these are, like, marketing teams at B2B companies.
\n\nI'm sure a lot of people who are listening to this have seen some very cringeworthy, you know, attempts at a viral video made by various corporations. Those usually don't land well. There are some people out there maybe that can crack this and make something that is viral through some art and science, but most everybody else cannot.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs]
\n\nBRENDAN: It's like, not something that can be kind of, like, bottled and captured. So we've always been on the side of, like, be authentic, be yourself, make these harder-working videos. But --
\n\nVICTORIA: I think that's generally good advice for businesses that was, like, maybe don't try to just do viral trends...[laughs] Like, make your own authentic content. But you personally now, like, yeah, if you were going to do whatever the latest TikTok trend is, which one would you pick?
\n\nBRENDAN: You know, okay, maybe here's one. So we have always been, as I described it, on the side of, like, do not do this. It is, like, almost always going to be cringe-worthy. But do you remember...I don't know what year this is from, the Harlem Shake. It was mostly kind of a business trend, right? You'd play this track, the Harlem Shake, and have, like, when the beat dropped, it would go from normal office to everyone dancing in a costume.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that's fun.
\n\nBRENDAN: So it was, like, a fun trend. But it was...we were and still are, I'd say, fairly, like, anti-trend. I don't know what, you know, like, contrarian when it comes to marketing trends or things like that. But then, when this happened, we were like, this will be really funny. We should set a calendar reminder to do this, like, ten years in the future.
\n\nActually, the last onsite that we had; unfortunately, it was the last day. Our head of production [laughs] who, like, we kind of had this, like, running joke of he randomly saw a news article. I think that it was the 10-year anniversary of the Harlem Shake [laughs] or whatever. He's like, oh, this would be...this is the perfect time to do this, now that it's so, so, so out of vogue. But, you know, people, like, maybe have fond memories of it. And now this is so out of fashion. I think it could be funny to do it. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, right. You don't want to do it just because it's the trend. But if it fits your personality and your business, then I think it would make sense.
\n\nBRENDAN: Yeah.
\n\nVICTORIA: I've heard that there might be a Wes Anderson style. [laughs] And I wanted to do a Wes Anderson goes to RailsConf video, but I'm actually meeting this --
\n\nBRENDAN: Did you do it?
\n\nVICTORIA: I didn't do it. I'm not actually good enough. I think tomorrow I'm meeting with the Wistia customer success team. [laughs] I'm going to ask them to help me.
\n\nBRENDAN: Oh yes, we'll help you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes.
\n\nBRENDAN: I do like...that trend is nice. That feels like a; I don't know, like, less aggressive. I've seen a lot of those, and they don't feel, I don't know, cringeworthy to me because maybe it's a nice shell in which to put some personality and content, as opposed to --
\n\nVICTORIA: Just being goofy or whatever, yeah. [laughs]
\n\nBRENDAN: Yeah, I don't know exactly how to describe it. But I think that one works better. Yeah, someone at Wistia did that the other day in the office, and people enjoyed it a lot. That was more for, like, internal consumption. But those ones are nice.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Well, I like the idea of bringing some of these editing tools to marketing teams where they can maybe not create viral videos all the time but do a lot of very highly editing and having it all in one place as well. Like you mentioned, I do run webinars, [laughs] and I'm familiar with the bouncing around between different tools to get everything to work. And there's even sometimes, like, security issues with different types of video-hosting tools. So I think there's a lot to offer for a marketing team who may not have as many resources to do the individual pieces.
\n\nBRENDAN: Yeah, that's a story we've heard, yeah, from a lot of customers. And we have a lot of video resources internally because we're a video company, and we invest a lot in that. But even so, yeah, if you talk to folks on our marketing team, they'd say it's hard to get those resources, especially if you have something small that you want to do.
\n\nI think it's always better if the person who has the need can easily do the thing themselves, right? More and better work gets done that way versus if it's, like, this chain of having to, like, ask other people because then you're like, should I really ask? It's like, do I want to, you know, spend social capital or budget on this thing? Will it work, will it not? But you can be, I think, faster and also experiment more when you have those tools available to you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, no, that makes sense. Because I don't know if it's worth [laughs] me spending my team's time to make this Wes Anderson video, but I want to do it for fun. So we'll see if I can do it at RubyKaigi next week.
\n\nBRENDAN: You should. That's great. That's, like, the perfect example of it because I feel like, yeah, well, maybe not. You might be sheepish to be like, yeah, I'm going to spend, like, ten grand with this, like, contractor to make this Wes Anderson...and to be like, what do you...what? What are you doing?
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs] That makes sense.
\n\nBRENDAN: But if you do it, I think, you know, it's very likely it'll be really well-received, and you'll learn something about your audience. And then that could, like, blossom into, you know, a whole bunch of other things. I feel like that's been the case for us in our content marketing. We've long said, and this is, like, much more commonplace now, but one of the advantages of having a video producer in-house, like, is exactly that you now are employing someone full-time.
\n\nAnd so you've, you know, like, maybe knocked off, like, the major pieces of content that a business would make with video, some of the obvious things. But then it's exactly what you're talking about that, oh, we could take a risk, and we could try this. And that's where you learn and figure out new things and things that are different than your competitors might be doing or more creative approaches.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, That's great. You know, something I like to ask everybody who comes on the show, and it will be super interesting since you've been on a few times before, but if you could go back in time to your younger self when you first started Wistia, what advice would you give yourself?
\n\nBRENDAN: Patient...One funny thing of when we started Wistia, we had really unrealistic expectations. I don't think that's [laughs] unique when starting a business when you're young. But yeah, I was 22 or 23, as was my co-founder, Chris. And we really honestly thought—this is, like, this is cringeworthy to say—that we would either be really successful and, in six months, build this great business and sell it to Facebook or now Meta, right? But that was, like, a hot company at the time.
\n\nSo we'd be wildly successful and sell to Facebook in six months, or we would fail in obscurity. That was, like, our honest-to-goodness business plan, which is so naive. [laughs] And here we are, you know, 17 years later and having a wonderful time. So I guess I would say, I mean, it's the most cliché advice, and you're young, and you never listen to stuff like this, but it's, like, enjoy the journey.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nThings haven't always been easy. And there are, you know, hard challenges and, like, times filled with self-doubt. But even in those moments, if you have support from people around you, if you can learn to enjoy the growth and the journey, that is what keeps you motivated to do something for a long period of time. And usually, you know, people who stay focused on something for a long period of time you figure it out and can be successful. This sounds like the most generic advice as I say this out loud.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs]
\n\nBRENDAN: It really is. Enjoy the journey. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Enjoy the journey. But I think that's common. And even actually talking with Chad a few weeks ago and interviewing him about thoughtbot, is his younger self would tell him to have more fun [laughs] during the whole process and really enjoy it. And I think it's also interesting that you had either the most optimistic and the most [laughs] pessimistic as options and, like, nothing in between [laughter] that you expected would happen.
\n\nWhich is funny because I have people ask me, like, is there still money in building apps and building new products? And it's like, yeah, like, it feels like there's these big people in the space, and they're doing everything you could think of possible. But there's still niche market that you can pursue [laughs], right? And there is still the ways that you can differentiate yourself as a product.
\n\nBRENDAN: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. What advice would you give to your younger self?
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, me? I think, you know, probably something similar. Like, I feel like all of the times in my life where I've been, like, what am I going to do next and been really stressed out about it, within, like, three to six months, I found a new job, or I found something better where life improved a hundred-fold. [laughter]. So I think that's something even now I like to keep in mind is, like, if things turned down badly, like; usually, things turn around in a few months after that, [laughs] and a lot of times for the better. And that's, you know, true with, like, moving to California across the country from DC a few years ago. And yeah, a few other points like that.
\n\nI think the other part I think about is who I might have invested more time in and who I would have invested less time in. And like what you were saying, like, having the support of people around you, and finding the people who really have your back and support you, and, for people who don't, maybe letting go a little sooner. [laughs]
\n\nBRENDAN: Oh, interesting. Yeah, that's good advice. Yeah, I feel like both of those things are things I should probably remind myself of more frequently. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Right? And have more fun, which means...there's another quote I heard that's, like, when people travel back in time, they're worried about changing a small thing that will affect the future. But people don't think that they can make small changes now that will affect their future big time.
\n\nBRENDAN: Oh, that's a good one. I haven't heard that. But that's a good one.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, super cool. Just to kind of really summarize or go back to some things we mentioned already about video, just how important do you think video really is to marketing in the current landscape for businesses?
\n\nBRENDAN: I mean, [laughs] I'm a very biased party, but I think it is becoming increasingly more important. I think it is the default way a lot of people want to consume information. This is a whole other tip that we didn't talk about with what's happening in the world of generative AI. And I'm sure a lot of people listening to this have voice cloning and how good those things have been getting.
\n\nI think it's going to make the value of authentic connections in video much more important in the short and medium term. And there's some challenging questions about how do you tell what's real in an environment where we've gone past the uncanny valley in terms of generating, you know, an avatar of me or you with the perfect voice clone? But I think people are going to rely a lot on video to break through.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's going to be just more video world [laughs] as it goes. What does success look like for Wistia six months from now and even five years from now, the longer term?
\n\nBRENDAN: I think for six months from now, so there's a lot of new areas of the product that we've added. And, in the next six months, we should be able to make pretty substantial progress to have those parts of the product have really solid adoption and repeated usage by customers. I think that's what success looks like, which we're seeing it now for our editors, probably the farthest along, that it has really good adoption among the customer base, and repeat usage, which I think is, like, a really good sign of success for a product.
\n\nLive is still really early for us. You don't get a lot of shots if something goes wrong with a live event. [laughs] You know, I'd be pretty quick to look for another platform. And that's a pretty mature market where there are a lot of really strong competition. I think if we can get to a place in six months where we've got, you know, a few hundred customers using that every week or every month, we'd feel like we're on a path towards success.
\n\nAnd the five-year version, I don't know, we recently started making three-year goals for the company a few years ago that have been pretty helpful to have as an anchoring. We have not made a five-year goal. But the thing I'm very excited about right now and what we're doing is, again, like, live is a small example. The market for live itself is much bigger than the market that traditionally Wistia has been in, and just in terms of video hosting, which itself has always grown a lot over the years. And it's itself a big market, as is video recording and creating video.
\n\nSo we have entered into a bunch of new markets that are all really quite large. And it's pretty humbling to be in a spot where I feel like we have a really solid base with a lot of in-depth knowledge of marketing and our customer to be able to build a really excellent product for that set. We're playing in a much bigger market than I ever thought we would.
\n\nVICTORIA: It's like, success already achieved.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nBRENDAN: Well, I don't know. It doesn't feel that way. It doesn't feel that way. But -- [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Maybe next time you come on the podcast, you'll have another success story to share with us. [laughs]
\n\nBRENDAN: I hope so. Yeah, I feel like that's always the case, right? It's like, yeah, there are moments where we're certainly very proud of what we've been able to achieve. But most of my time is spent [laughs] in the headspace of, you know, why are we so slow? Why is the product not good enough? Why are we, you know, like, all the stuff that's going wrong, right? Which drives you to be better and is exciting.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. That makes sense. Well, hopefully, this helps remind you all the good stuff that you all have done so far, too.
\n\nBRENDAN: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm really excited to hear about just how your values drive your decisions and then how that goes to the rest of the team and how closely you're listening to your customers, too, on the product. I think those are all just really great cultural examples and ways to build great products. So, thank you for sharing your story with me.
\n\nAnd you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. And if you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @victori_ousg.
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Agnes Malatinszky is the Founder of Senga, which takes care of back-office administrative needs for freelancers, contractors, and solopreneurs.
\n\nVictoria and Will interview Agnes about the thoughtbot Incubator program and what led Agnes to choose to apply, what the demands on her time were like, how it worked, and how she feels now that she's at the end of the program.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry.
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Agnes Malatinszky, Founder of Senga, providing back-end support for freelancers. Agnes, thank you for joining me.
\n\nAGNES: Hey, it's a pleasure to be here.
\n\nVICTORIA: You are the first graduate of thoughtbot's incubator program, and I'm really excited to dive into that with you today. So, before we get started in talking about the incubator program, let's just start with what fun thing do you have going on this week?
\n\nAGNES: I'm based in Washington, D.C., and it's a beautiful time of year here. Early summer, late spring is gorgeous. So I'm excited because my family and I are actually headed out to Harpers Ferry this weekend for a little hike. So I'm looking forward to that.
\n\nWILL: So, what is...when you say a hike, can you explain it to anybody that's outside of the D.C. area?
\n\nAGNES: It's just a beautiful area in West Virginia. And we're going to take our dog and my daughter out there and get some fresh air and walk around. There's a little historic town there as well that's really interesting to explore.
\n\nWILL: That sounds fun.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. I've been to Harpers Ferry to go floating, like, on the river.
\n\nAGNES: Yes.
\n\nVICTORIA: Where you float down the river in inner tubes and drink beverages. [laughter] There's also...there's rock climbing in Harpers Ferry too, which is sometimes closed for bird nesting. So it is really beautiful.
\n\nAGNES: Ooh, I didn't know that. That's really cool. We'll keep an eye out for that.
\n\nWILL: Yes. For anybody that doesn't know, Victoria is an amazing rock climber. I have a lot of respect for her because I don't know if I could do it. [laughter]
\n\nVICTORIA: You could definitely do it. The next thoughtbot trip that we're on, we'll go rock climbing, Will. I'm confident in your skills. You could do it. Yes, I'm a big rock climber and rock-climbing advocate, so I'll talk about it forever if you let me.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm actually going to go rock climbing this weekend and get outside myself. And we're going up to Mammoth, California. And we're going to do a half-climbing, half-ski trip.
\n\nWILL: Ooh.
\n\nVICTORIA: So that's going to be fun for Memorial Day weekend, so...What about you, Will? What do you have going on fun this week?
\n\nWILL: Yeah. So you said skiing.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes. So Mammoth got the most snow in the country this year. When we were there in February, they'd already had, like, 10 feet of snow. And then they got another foot of snow while we were there, so they're going to have snow through August, at least.
\n\nWILL: August. Wow. Here in South Florida, the lowest we got was 50. So snow, I don't even know what you're talking about. [laughs] Yeah, so you asked what I'm going to do. Last week was a big week for us because my boys they turned four years old and one year old. And we took them to Disney and had a blast. Anybody who's been to Disney knows it's a trip. It could be a lot, especially it was very hot there too. So I think this weekend we're just going to take it easy. We're just going to relax and just enjoy it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Trip of a lifetime for them, I'm sure.
\n\nWILL: Yes, they loved it.
\n\nVICTORIA: We have Disneyland over here in California. I have been to Disney World in Florida. But I still haven't been to Disneyland since I've been here, [laughs] which I think some people would judge me for.
\n\nAGNES: You know what? I haven't been to either. I hold it against my parents forever. [laughter] Although my family is not a big fan of crowds, so I think that's why.
\n\nWILL: Yes, if you're not a fan of crowds, Disney is not the place, especially now. I've heard around September is probably the best time to go. So we're going to try that out during that time too.
\n\nAGNES: Ooh, protip. You heard it here first.
\n\nWILL: Yes. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: September, Disneyland, Florida sounds very warm to me. [laughs] But yeah, we're actually going to go to Mexico with thoughtbot as a team meetup in September, which is also going to be pretty warm, I think. [laughs] But it'll be fun. Well, that's lovely. I love getting to hear a little bit about your lives before we dig into your business.
\n\nAgnes, I'm super excited to hear about Senga. But maybe start with just a little bit about your background before you started.
\n\nAGNES: I had been thinking about starting my own business for a while. I am an immigrant, and I come from an entrepreneurial family. Actually, my mom ran her own translation business back in Hungary, and now she's a really successful artist. So, you know, I had support from them and my husband as well to sort of try out something new.
\n\nBut, in my last role, I was actually Chief Operating Officer at an EdTech company that had scaled to serve over 80% of U.S. schools during the pandemic. And I was at that company for about five years and had seen the full arc of, you know, startup to a mature organization. So I was ready to take on a new challenge and to learn something new.
\n\nWILL: You mentioned that your mom was an entrepreneur. And my dad was an entrepreneur, also. He had his own electric and HVAC business, and I learned so much from him. Is there anything that you can just, like, ooh, I learned this and this from my mom as a kid, looking at your mom being an entrepreneur?
\n\nAGNES: I mean, she is just a, you know, fix-it person in every sense of the word. So she will fix an electric outlet. She will fix something with her business.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nAGNES: She's just, like, really good at getting her hands dirty and being really scrappy. And I think that's a really important skill to have, you know, especially in a startup, and especially when you're starting out and still on your own.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, what did your parents say when you told them you were going to start out on your own and build your own company?
\n\nAGNES: They were really encouraging. They, you know, they keep up with all my LinkedIn posts, and they read everything I publish. So they're just very supportive and the best cheerleaders I could possibly hope for. [laughs]
\n\nWILL: Did stepping out and starting your business did anything scare you in that area?
\n\nAGNES: Oh my gosh, every day, something new. It's all just uncertainty and risk at this point. You know, I'm very, very early in my startup journey, so literally every question about the business I have to test. I have to find answers for. And that ranges everything from, you know, business formation to, you know, the nuts and bolts of getting the business organized and setting up financials, and the legal structure for the company, to figuring out what the product is going to be. So all this uncertainty is definitely a little bit nerve-racking.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm wondering, what about your past experience as a Chief Operations Officer led you to want to build a product like Senga?
\n\nAGNES: So being a Chief Operating Officer, I think one of the things that I really learned was that in order for a business to be really successful, and for people working at that company to be really successful, they have to have the organization's support to do what they do best. You know, what I used to tell my operations team was that you know, we were really the plumbers of the organization, making sure that everything ran smoothly behind the scenes.
\n\nSo, actually, that was one of the inspirations for Senga, for my current company, this idea that freelancers and independent workers don't have that support. They don't necessarily have somebody helping them with HR, and with financials, and with legal stuff, and with everything else that goes into running a business, whether you're a business of 1 or a business of 100. And that's really where I wanted to come in and, you know, support independent workers.
\n\nVICTORIA: One follow-up question for Agnes on your experience in the COO role. I believe your team also had a lot of background in the freelancing world. So you had people you could ask questions to and start to understand that market. Is that right?
\n\nAGNES: Yeah. Like a lot of businesses, I guess we had, you know, freelancers and contract workers that we relied on. And that's increasingly true for most companies now, I would say. There's specialized roles. There is seasonal roles that you don't necessarily hire full-time employees for but that are perfect for somebody, you know, on a temporary basis or somebody with more specialized skills. So you're exactly right; being able to tap into that network and having had experience working with freelancers and contractors was really helpful coming into the incubator and having people to tap for interviews and for input.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. And then, what is the thoughtbot incubator, which we've mentioned a few times already? It is for a non-technical founding team with a business idea that involves a web or a mobile app. It's an eight-week program that helps you get the proof points you need in order to move forward with confidence. So I'm curious, Agnes, what led you to choose the thoughtbot incubator Program as something you wanted to apply to?
\n\nAGNES: I mean, it's exactly what you named. So this incubator program was really a perfect launching pad for me. It's designed for non-technical founders, like myself, to get their own dedicated team of product and dev experts to, you know, like, hone customer discovery practice, create a product strategy, run proof of concept experiments. And, you know, these were exactly the areas where I lacked skills and expertise the most. So I had actually looked at other incubators and even some venture studios before, but those models were not as good of a fit for me. I was really excited to find and to be able to join thoughtbot's incubator program.
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\n\nWILL: What was the original idea behind Senga?
\n\nAGNES: The idea that I came into the incubator with and then the pain points that we honed in on during the incubator, and then the long-term vision for the company are all kind of a little bit different. So I'll zoom out first to the sort of 30,000-foot view of this.
\n\nSo, coming into the incubator, I had been reading and researching a lot about some macro trends that I think are really interesting, and these are trends that many of us are keeping an eye on. So they're nothing revolutionary, but I think they're going to create some really interesting problems to solve in the next couple of years. So the first one is the rise of independent workers, or contractors, or freelancers. I'm kind of going to use these terms interchangeably.
\n\nIn recent years, the number of independent workers has shot up like crazy. There are already over 65 million independent workers in the U.S., and this number is growing by about 25% annually. And then, add to this that economic downturns tend to grow this number even more. You know, this makes up about a third of the workforce in the U.S. already, and it's growing.
\n\nThe second thing is that you know, the fact that early-career folks, especially Gen Z, really like the independence and autonomy that comes with this type of work. Over half of Gen Z already freelance, and the majority want to make independent work their career. In other words, they explicitly do not want to work for a company in the traditional sense.
\n\nAnd then, third, there's kind of a mishmash of factors that I'll lump into one bullet that additionally drive up this type of work, which is that, increasingly, jobs are going to be skills-based, not degree-based, and all work, even white-collar work, will become more modular. Both tech advances and even, I think, novel organizational structures are going to make it possible for people to hyper-specialize and to plug into different organizations at different times, and, you know, even simultaneously to perform that specialized work.
\n\nSo take all this together, and what I'm really seeing is that the current market offerings serving freelancers and contractors are not nearly enough to meet all their needs, which is driving huge inefficiency. The types of companies that cater to this segment now or, you know, there's mature marketplaces like Upwork, and Fiverr, and some earlier-stage companies that do, you know, more workflow and back office. But I'm not seeing a comprehensive solution, and that's driving like I said, a lot of inefficiency. So, ultimately, being a freelancer is still really hard. Only about 50% of a freelancer's time is spent on billable work. And so this is what I really want to solve.
\n\nVICTORIA: And did anything change through the incubator process?
\n\nAGNES: So the biggest thing I found during the incubator was actually a really good entry point into this market. So startup wisdom says that you have to narrow down your product to a super tight segment that has a very strong, like, yes to your product. So, during the course of the eight weeks that I did the incubator, we did a ton of interviews, and I was really on the lookout for big spikes and pain points that repeated for a specific niche of freelancers. And that's exactly what we ended up finding.
\n\nThere's lots of nuance to this, but generally speaking, people new to freelancing and those that are just looking to get started need help getting started in a more manageable way and then setting up good practices that will serve them in the long run.
\n\nWILL: You mentioned those practices that helps them set them up in the long run. Are you talking about mostly the operation, so, like, anything that's non-billable for a client?
\n\nAGNES: Exactly, yeah. So that's kind of how I think about the work is anything that's billable and then anything that's non-billable. So that includes client management, client communication, marketing themselves, finding, you know, new work, so drumming up new business, all the back-office financials, back-office legal and admin stuff. All these other things that traditionally would be, you know, done by, you know, an operations team at a big company, but, for freelancers, they have to do it themselves.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I love that idea because my spouse she dipped her toe into the freelance world. And I felt like the operations kind of overcame everything else. And so it almost felt like the operations was taking over the job. But it's one of those things I feel like we didn't really think through of how much work that that 50% is. Like, how much work do you have to do, which are taxes, operations, speaking to clients, even to get to the things that people usually love, like the design, the software development? So I'm excited about this product.
\n\nAGNES: Yeah, exactly. And that's kind of what I kept hearing again and again in interviews with all sorts of different freelancers because we went out and interviewed folks from, you know, everywhere from graphic design, to UX/UI design, to web developers, to other types of creatives, content creators. And this idea that they all get into freelancing to pursue their passion, the thing that they're uniquely good at. But then end up spending a huge chunk of their time on, you know, things that they're not really specialized in, you know, basically running their business.
\n\nVICTORIA: What types of experiments did you run while you were in the incubator program with the people you mentioned you're talking to? And what were the demands on your time really like?
\n\nAGNES: Oh, so the program is between 20 to 40 hours a week. I had a chance to meet with my thoughtbot team daily. We had independent work time, also breakout sessions. Like you said, a lot of that time was spent doing interviews and running all sorts of different experiments, so discovery interviews, interviews showing the prototype once we had it to interviewees. But we also set up Google Ads. We created a landing page with various calls to action. And then based on who was coming through the landing page and what they were doing on the site, we had all sorts of, you know, lessons that we could take away from that.
\n\nAnd then another piece of it was I also learned how to basically start building out an organic community around this problem and from, you know, the community of freelancers, which is so important to have, like, for a future user base and also to be able to continue to engage with my target audience.
\n\nWILL: Was there anything that surprised you about the program, or did you have any interesting findings coming out of the program?
\n\nAGNES: One thing I learned through the program was that you know, there are concrete steps that you can take and a process that you can follow to build out a strong business that solves real problems for people. And that's really what this program and this incubator is focused on, is to teach you those skills to go through those early steps.
\n\nYou know, everything that I had read before about startups they're kind of clouded in mystery. And, you know, the big ones that end up being really successful tend to be mythologized, and founder stories tend to have these, like, big eureka moments in them, where the founder had their big idea that led to the big company. But really, at the early stage, it's pretty messy. And nevertheless, you have these steps that you can follow and processes that you can follow to build out the company.
\n\nVICTORIA: And how are you feeling now at the end of the program?
\n\nAGNES: I feel really excited and, frankly, more confident than I came into the program. So, you know, I'm leaving here with lots of good data, lots of good anecdotal evidence, having had dozens and dozens of conversations with my target market. So, for me, that's a really great feeling to know that my ideas they don't just exist in the abstract in my head but that we've bounced them against the universe and confirmed that folks are having the pain points that we expected and some that we did not expect. And that there is an opportunity around this.
\n\nWILL: So, what could be done better about the incubator program from your perspective?
\n\nAGNES: It was a great program, and that's a pretty hard question to answer. But, you know, I would selfishly say make it longer. Eight weeks is, by design, you know, a pretty short time to get started. And that's really what the program is designed to do is to get you started, to set you up with good practices and good tools. But, again, selfishly, I wish it were a little bit longer, so I can stick around and have the thoughtbot team around me.
\n\nAnd then I just look forward to building more of a community as more founders join thoughtbot's incubator every quarter. We have a shared Slack channel that I'm going to continue hanging out in and that I've been told the new founders, as well, will be added to. So I'm looking forward to getting to meet them and to, you know, hear about their experience as well.
\n\nVICTORIA: What's coming up next for you in the next six months?
\n\nAGNES: So I'm talking to a couple of potential partners in the next couple of weeks, which might kind of change the roadmap slightly. But, basically, this summer and fall, I'm building out a lot of the content and the prototype for Senga. Again, continuing to talk to the freelancers I've been continuing to talk to. I'm also putting together sort of, like, an advisory committee of freelancers I've met along the way who had a strong yes sort of reaction to this product. And then my goal is that by fall or winter, I'll be able to start building out an MVP.
\n\nWILL: That's exciting.
\n\nAGNES: Yeah, I'm really excited. [laughs]
\n\nWILL: Your dream is finally coming true, so, yeah, you have something to be excited about. [laughs] Do you have any advice for any other founders?
\n\nAGNES: I guess I don't know how qualified I feel to be, you know, handing out advice as a brand-new founder. But, overall, I would encourage others out there who are interested in taking this path to, you know, really take a risk and to bet on themselves. What I've found in the last couple of months is that there are so many supportive communities, and founder groups, and entrepreneur groups.
\n\nAnd this is kind of common advice, and everybody says this, but there's really no way you can fully prepare. You just kind of have to start doing. And at least from what I've seen, that's the secret sauce to this early stage is to keep doing and to keep going from one step to the next every day.
\n\nVICTORIA: If you could travel back in time and give yourself advice from when before this all started, what advice would you give yourself?
\n\nAGNES: I would just encourage myself to, you know, take the plunge and maybe even go down this path sooner. You know, I feel really confident where I'm at now in terms of my career and my, you know, support networks and everything. But being able to go back and start experimenting earlier and start going down this path earlier might have even set me up better.
\n\nWILL: One thing when you're starting a startup is funding. Are you looking for any funding?
\n\nAGNES: Not urgently, but I'm definitely interested in talking to others working and investing in this space. So, you know, if any of your listeners are investors or entrepreneurs in a similar space, I would love to talk to them.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. So, how could they reach you if they wanted to reach out to you?
\n\nAGNES: You can reach me by email at hello@senga.app, or you can find us on LinkedIn at Senga.
\n\nVICTORIA: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You could find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nWILL: And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Agnes Malatinszky.
Sponsored By:
Chad joins cohosts Victoria and Will to talk about thoughtbot's 20th birthday! 🤖🎉
\n\nIn this episode, you'll find the 411 on the thoughtbot mascot, "Ralph," taking the company fully remote, and our company values and how we believe products should be designed and built!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: Hey there. It's your host Victoria. And I'm here today with Dawn Delatte and Jordyn Bonds from our Ignite team. We are thrilled to announce the summer 2023 session of our new incubator program. If you have a business idea that involves a web or mobile app, we encourage you to apply for our 8-week program.
\n\nWe'll help you validate the market opportunity, experiment with messaging and product ideas, and move forward with confidence towards an MVP.
\n\nLearn more and apply at tbot.io/incubator. Dawn and Jordyn, thank you for joining and sharing the news with me today.
\n\nJORDYN: Thanks for having us.
\n\nDAWN: Yeah, glad to be here.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, tell me a little bit more about the incubator program. This will be your second session, right?
\n\nJORDYN: Indeed. We are just now wrapping up the first session. We had a really great 8 weeks, and we're excited to do it again.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. And I think we're going to have the person from your program on a Giant Robots episode soon.
\n\nJORDYN: Wonderful.
\n\nVICTORIA: Maybe you can give us a little preview. What were some of your main takeaways from this first round?
\n\nJORDYN: You know, as ever with early-stage work, it's about identifying your best early adopter market and user persona, and then learning as much as you possibly can about them to inform a roadmap to a product.
\n\nVICTORIA: What made you decide to start this incubator program this year with thoughtbot?
\n\nDAWN: We had been doing work with early-stage products and founders, as well as some innovation leads or research and development leads in existing organizations. We had been applying a lot of these processes, like the customer discovery process, Product Design Sprint process to validate new product ideas. And we've been doing that for a really long time.
\n\nAnd we've also been noodling on this idea of exploring how we might offer value even sooner to clients that are maybe pre-software product idea. Like many of the initiatives at thoughtbot, it was a little bit experimental for us. We decided to sort of dig into better understanding that market, and seeing how the expertise that we had could be applied in the earlier stage.
\n\nIt's also been a great opportunity for our team to learn and grow. We had Jordyn join our team as Director of Product Strategy. Their experience with having worked at startups and being an early-stage startup founder has been so wonderful for our team to engage with and learn from. And we've been able to offer that value to clients as well.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. So it's for people who have identified a problem, and they think they can come up with a software solution. But they're not quite at the point of being ready to actually build something yet. Is that right?
\n\nDAWN: Yeah. We've always championed the idea of doing your due diligence around validating the right thing to build. And so that's been a part of the process at thoughtbot for a really long time. But it's always been sort of in the context of building your MVP. So this is going slightly earlier with that idea and saying, what's the next right step for this business?
\n\nIt's really about understanding if there is a market and product opportunity, and then moving into exploring what that opportunity looks like. And then validating that and doing that through user research, and talking to customers, and applying early product and business strategy thinking to the process.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. So that probably sets you up for really building the right thing, keeping your overall investment costs lower because you're not wasting time building the wrong thing. And setting you up for that due diligence when you go to investors to say, here's how well I vetted out my idea. Here's the rigor that I applied to building the MVP.
\n\nJORDYN: Exactly. It's not just about convincing external stakeholders, so that's a key part. You know, maybe it's investors, maybe it's new team members you're looking to hire after the program. It could be anyone. But it's also about convincing yourself. Really, walking down the path of pursuing a startup is not a small undertaking. And we just want to make sure folks are starting with their best foot forward.
\n\nYou know, like Dawn said, let's build the right thing. Let's figure out what that thing is, and then we can think about how to build it right. That's a little quote from a book I really enjoy, by the way. I cannot take credit for that. [laughs] There's this really great book about early-stage validation called The Right It by Alberto Savoia.
\n\nHe was an engineer at Google, started a couple of startups himself, failed in some ways, failed to validate a market opportunity before marching off into building something. And the pain of that caused him to write this book about how to quickly and cheaply validate some market opportunity, market assumptions you might have when you're first starting out. The way he frames that is let's figure out if it's the right it before we build it right. And I just love that book, and I love that framing.
\n\nYou know, if you don't have a market for what you're building, or if they don't understand that they have the pain point you're solving for, it doesn't matter what you build. You got to do that first. And that's really what the focus of this incubator program is. It's that phase of work. Is there a there there? Is there something worth the hard, arduous path of building some software? Is there something there worth walking that path for before you start walking it?
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. I love that. Well, thank you both so much for coming on and sharing a little bit more about the program. I'm super excited to see what comes out of the first round, and then who gets selected for the second round. So I'm happy to help promote. Any other final takeaways for our listeners today?
\n\nDAWN: If this sounds intriguing to you, maybe you're at the stage where you're thinking about this process, I definitely encourage people to follow along. We're trying to share as much as we can about this process and this journey for us and our founders.
\n\nSo you can follow along on our blog, on LinkedIn. We're doing a LinkedIn live weekly with the founder in the program. We'll continue to do that with the next founders. And we're really trying to build a community and extend the community, you know, that thoughtbot has built with early-stage founders, so please join us. We'd love to have you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. That's amazing. Thank you both so much.
\n\nINTRO MUSIC:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido.
\n\nWILL: And I'm your host, Will Larry. And with us today is our other host, Chad Pytel, the CEO of thoughtbot. Which, we're celebrating 20 years of business this year. Chad, welcome.
\n\nCHAD: Oh, it's good to have the tables turned on me. And I'm looking forward to the discussion today.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. We have a whole set of questions, some of which come from other employees within thoughtbot. So we're really excited to dig into it today. Why don't we start with thoughtbot's iconic logo, the Ralph bot, and the little red robot that everyone knows thoughtbot for? And we call him Ralph within thoughtbot. So, how did Ralph come to be? Where does his design come from? And how did that become part of the company mascot?
\n\nCHAD: I'm happy to tell the story. But I have a question for both of you: have you ever heard me call the robot Ralph?
\n\nWILL: [laughs] No.
\n\nVICTORIA: I don't think I've ever heard you refer to the robot.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: So, if you did call it, I don't know what you would call it.
\n\nWILL: Oh, who started that? [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: It was someone who was at the company, Matt Jankowski.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Ah, I see.
\n\nCHAD: I actually don't like the name. I think it's a terrible name for the robot. [laughs] I don't understand why the robot has to be gendered at all. And so I've never said that that's the robot's name. You know, when you're CEO, you have to pick your battles.
\n\nWILL: [laughs] Yes.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. So that's the unofficial name of the robot, I think. And Matt started calling it that because Matt's a big fan of coming up with names for things. And yeah, so, at some point, he started calling it that. And it sort of stuck as people joined the company and just sort of assumed that that's what the robot's called.
\n\nWe didn't start with this logo. Logo has always been a robot. But the thing we started with was an illustration based off of a tin robot that I think either one of us had or that we saw a picture of. Another Matt, who is one of the founders of the company, sketched it. He was a designer as well as a developer. And we used it for a few years.
\n\nBut what we learned over the course of it as we gained more exposure is that, actually, it's a really common tin toy robot. And you can find a lot of other art and illustration and uses of it in stock photography and everything. Which at first was good because then we could get a bunch of stock photography, and it was our logo. But then we realized, ooh, this is not something that we really own or have control over. So we started to think about creating our own robot logo from scratch.
\n\nSince we're a design firm, and I think it's notoriously hard to design things for yourself, we actually went to another agency that we were friends with and hired them to work with us to create the logo. And I have to say I was probably the worst client ever.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Because I was asking...I had a particular vision in mind for this idea of, like, a powerful robot. And we kept on doing sketches, after sketch, after sketch, and it was really hard. We couldn't arrive at something that seemed powerful, that didn't seem aggressive. The logo at the time was a 3D representation of the robot. And it was really hard to also make a new 3D robot that looked powerful but not aggressive. And we just banged our heads against that for a long time. I think it was a couple of months.
\n\nUntil one day, I just said, you know what? We're not going to do it. Let's just stop trying to do this. [chuckles] Let's just do the simplest 2D representation of a robot that we can think of. And just going back to the drawing board starting over, we arrived at the logo we have today. Now we have to deal with the fact that it looks a lot like the Android logo. [laughter] But that's the, I guess, the story of the robot.
\n\nWILL: So, first off, scratching the name Ralph. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: No, no, you can use it. I just think it's funny.
\n\nWILL: Definitely. Second thing is Chad is not a good client when working with designers. No, I'm just joking. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: No, it's totally true.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: You know, when we have strong opinions that are mostly preferences, that leads to people being bad clients. [laughter] Because there was no reasoning behind, you know, the preferences. It was just what I had in my head. And so it wasn't until I let that go that we were able to arrive at something usable.
\n\nWILL: [laughs] That's awesome. So, was the robot a passion for you, or was it just a toy that one of the founders, employees had, and that's where you went with it, how you got your inspiration?
\n\nCHAD: The name thoughtbot with the bot on the end comes from...because before we started thoughtbot, we did a lot of Java development as a group, same people I went to school with them. We did projects together. And we would follow the pattern where you sort of have an object and then a manager object or a service object. And it was a common naming pattern. If you have orders or customers, then the service object might be called order manager or customer manager. And, in our code, we tended to not do that and instead do bots. So we would have order bot over orders, customer bot over customers.
\n\nSo, when we were brainstorming names for the company, we naturally tended to put bot on the end because that was our typical naming convention in the projects we were doing together. And so there wasn't anything particular about robots that we cared about at all. [laughter] It was that naming convention, which then extended to, okay, well, it's the thoughtbot. And so it should be a robot with thoughts on it or thought lines or something like that. That's where it came from.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love to hear that. I'm learning so much myself I didn't know before even as a thoughtbot employee.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: It's been 20 years since you started the business. I want to start...or go back in time. So, if you could go back and give yourself, the younger version of you 20 years ago, some advice, what would you say?
\n\nCHAD: I've gotten similar versions of this question on different shows. My answer for the last several years has been pretty consistent. So I'll give that one, and then I think I have another one too. The thing that I didn't realize at the time that I think I would be better for and the company would be better for I had a big blind spot in terms of I started thoughtbot with friends. We were the same age. We were all five White guys in our 20s, just out of school. That was the people that I was doing projects with; that was the people I was surrounded by in school. And it was a big blind spot.
\n\nAnd, if I could go back in time, I would try to open my eyes to the fact that that was the case. And I think that I would be a lot better for it. And I think the company would be a lot better for having started with a more diverse team from the beginning because it makes us worse when you don't start off that way. It's harder and harder to correct it the longer it goes on. And so that would be something that I would go back and try to tell myself. Look at what you're doing. You don't realize now, but it is important.
\n\nWILL: So, because we started talking about this at Summit a month ago, and it was amazing to hear that you're saying that because, at the same time, we're at this all-staff event, and we're able to see how diverse our team is and stuff like that. How has the journey been increasing the diversity of the team? Like, I look at our team photo, and it's just amazing to see the diversity in every level, especially in leadership, the diversity in leadership. And I know we haven't, quote, unquote, "arrived." So, how has that journey been? And what does it look like in the future?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I mean, we've clearly made a lot of progress on this. It is better and easier now than it was in the early days because nobody wants to be the first. Nobody wants to be the first woman on the team. No one wants to be the first person of color on the team. You don't know when you're coming into an organization like that, whether it's the kind of place for you or whether you're going to run into problems. And so now that we've made some progress, that in and of itself makes it easier to continue on the journey.
\n\nBut when we were just getting started on that, we really needed to do a lot to intentionally fix it without tokenizing people, which is not easy to do. And so we're very fortunate that we have made progress. And I appreciate everyone along the way putting themselves out there, willing to be the first, or the second, or the third. I know that that's not easy, and it's made thoughtbot a better place now that we've progressed.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, and I want to interrupt and say this: after that conversation, I remember I had to split and run to another event. While at that event, I met one of the first ladies that were on the team. And I started chatting about her experience. And it was amazing to see the transformation from the beginning to where it is now. So it was just really good to have that conversation with you, and then go talk to her and just, I guess, see the complete picture, so that's amazing because she's still on the team to this day.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. But we're not done yet. Like you said, we still have [laughs], you know, we can always be better.
\n\nWILL: Where do you see it going in the future?
\n\nCHAD: Well, I think that even though the management team, the senior leadership team, we have made progress there, I think that that is an obvious area where we have more progress to go in terms of making sure that people at the company are represented...the demographics of the people at the company are represented at every level of the company, especially when you have a culture like we do where the leaders are the people who have been here the longest. And we don't have so many of those positions opening up over the years.
\n\nIn fact, over the last five years, we've eliminated more of those positions in order to reduce overhead and to stay financially sustainable. So we actually have less of those opportunities than we have in the past, and so that holds us back. And so we have to figure out how to handle that and to do better with that.
\n\nThe other is, you know, one of the biggest changes over the last three years is going fully remote. And that has enabled us to hire the best people, no matter where they live, in the time zones that we operate in. And that has been really great for bringing new people, new energy onto the team. That is going to continue into the future. And we're going to see the demographics of the company continue to shift away from the United States. 60% of the company is now outside of the U.S., and that's going to keep on going. And that doesn't make us any worse off. It makes us better.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that. So, thoughtbot, as I understand it before we went fully remote, was known for having an amazing in-person office culture. So, what was that shift like for you? And how do you maintain that company culture after going fully remote?
\n\nCHAD: Well, here's the honest answer.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: The honest answer was I was already not part of that office company culture. I was traveling one week out of every month to one of the studios. I didn't interact with people in the same way because of my position within the company. I was out of the studio a lot of the time. And even when I wasn't there, I was already working from home a few days a week because of my travel schedule or something like that. So moving to fully remote...and I was already sort of over-commuting to 45 minutes each way to the office.
\n\nAnd so moving to fully remote has made things a lot better for me because I'm traveling a lot less. I get to be home with my family a lot more. I don't have that commute time. And my experience now, I think, is more similar to everyone else on that team. And I feel like we're all sharing more equally in what the experience is at thoughtbot. And so when I work to improve that, I'm not only working to improve it for me. I'm working to improve it for everybody.
\n\nAnd so there are trade-offs. It is certainly different for the individual designer or developer at thoughtbot than it was before. But I think that the benefits of having the team that we have now, people being able to live where they want to live and to get that commute time back, outweigh the downsides of changing that company culture.
\n\nVICTORIA: The other part is about just that shift, right? Of it was COVID. [laughs] Obviously, a lot of people were going remote at that time. So I'm just curious how that experience really happened for thoughtbot. I know how it happened for me at the company I was at. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Well, it was certainly abrupt, you know. And, at the time, we thought, okay, we're going to shut down the office for two weeks, and then we'll all be back. And that, very quickly, was proven to be wrong. When it came to our actual work, the biggest shift we had was in the way that we collaborated with clients. But we were already collaborating with each other across studios in a distributed way. And so that was a more natural progression.
\n\nI think the biggest shift was the way that our projects were working and collaborating with clients. You know, we would have clients in the office with us, too, sitting right next to us. And so figuring out how to do design sprints fully remotely, to ramp up the amount of remote pair programming that we were doing, those were the big changes, I think.
\n\nAnd then you had the cultural ones, too, that you really need to work at when two people are getting a snack in the kitchen and having an off-hand chat about something. When you're fully remote, that doesn't happen. You need to put a lot more effort into those sort of what would have been casual conversations previously.
\n\nWILL: So, and it seems like...just having a conversation with you, I know that it wasn't an easy decision to change over. And my question is, how do you make decisions, especially the hard ones that are not...and you stick with them? For example, I know, like, with hiring, we're talking about the diversity and creating a diverse pool that kind of resembles the area that we're trying to hire for, so, you know, resemble the U.S., or overseas, or wherever it is. And that's a hard thing to do at times, but we stuck with it. And there's been other decisions I've noticed.
\n\nSo, how do you make those decisions, one, and then, how do you stick with them when most companies or most people will say, "Hey, it's just too hard. Let's pivot and change it up"?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, we have our values, five core values, and one of them is fulfillment. And I often refer to that as our North Star value, meaning that when we're faced with a decision as a company or as individuals, fulfillment is often the one that we most often look to as the guide for which direction to go in. And I think that that is really powerful for us. It causes us to choose things that other companies might not choose.
\n\nAnd it also is really powerful for us because it means that I don't need to be the one to make all of the decisions. You can make decisions based on what is fulfilling to you in your work. And that's very likely the right thing for everybody else at the company. And it may mean that we're a little bit less successful financially. But there are two aspects to success, you know, you need to be financially sustainable, but if you're unhappy in your work, if you're unfulfilled in your work, then that's not truly being successful. And so that's the guiding point of the way that we make a lot of decisions.
\n\nTake the example of going remote, we weren't really deciding between going back to the way things were or going fully remote. Going back to the way things were was not an option because we had already told everyone if you need to move if you need to be away from the studio you were previously part of, go do that. You don't need to worry about remaining at thoughtbot. And about 20 people moved away from where their studio had been located, which is about 20% of the company. So we were deciding between hybrid or fully remote. Going back to the way things were wasn't an option because we had already removed that from the table, I think, guided by supporting the team, fulfillment, trust, our values.
\n\nSo then the decision-making comes, do we want to figure out how to be hybrid? Which we had done before in our history. And we understood, based on that past experience, that you have to work at that quite a bit to integrate everyone fully, and sort of if you don't, it becomes very tough or even just mediocre. And so it was, are we more excited about working at being the best hybrid organization in the world, or are we more excited at figuring out how to be the best remote company in the world?
\n\nYou know, for me, that was an obvious choice. I was more excited about figuring out how to be the best remote company than I was about being the best hybrid company. So I think that that's an okay... [laughter] I think that's an okay way to make decisions. What are you more excited by? What are you going to be more fulfilled by in your work than that? And so that's, you know, sort of dissecting that decision-making, you know, part of what tipped us over the edge in terms of choosing to be fully remote.
\n\nVICTORIA: I like that you said that you tried to make it so that you're not the one making all the decisions. [chuckles] And I felt that as a managing director and as an associate director that there is a very purposeful tact of when I'm bringing issues to leadership. The response I get back is very careful not to tell me what to do. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. I'm sure it's annoying at times, right? [laughter]
\n\nVICTORIA: I think it's a shift, right? Like, if you're coming from a typical, like, top-down organization, it can be a real mind shift, and it can be frustrating. But then, once you embrace it, it can be very fulfilling, like you said.
\n\nCHAD: Part of why we do that, too, is because if you're not careful, you know, one of our other values is trust. And we really do trust people more than they're used to. And our other value is self-management. So, people should be left to their own devices. People at thoughtbot take initiative in their work to make decisions, those kinds of things. And so, at the intersection of trust and self-management, what happens in a lot of other cultures is this idea of permission. If you have to ask permission to do things, then you can't truly self-manage.
\n\nSo, when you come to a leader and you're asking for something, it's hard for that not to be articulated as asking for permission for something in a traditional sort of power hierarchy. I encourage people at thoughtbot to think about...in the way that our culture works, it's a lot better to frame things as asking for advice because there are people who have more experience in a certain area than you or whatever.
\n\nAnd so a much better way of framing the conversation that you want to have with those people is instead of just asking open-ended questions, which it's very easy to misunderstand as basically just asking for permission to do something, it's better to say, like, "Here's what I know. Here's what I would do based on what I know. Do you have any advice for me based on that?" And then I can say, "Oh, well, here's what I know. [laughs] Can I share that with you?"
\n\nAnd then, you can take that information in, and then you can make the decision based on having that additional information. I don't want to make the decision for somebody. That's the way I think about it. If you're not sure what's happening, it can be pretty frustrating in our culture because we are sort of averse to telling other people what to do. We're happy to help people and give people information, but we don't like to tell people what to do.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, and I've definitely felt this, even as a developer here. But it has been the perfect fit for me because I love the, hey, we trust you. Go and do it. Go make decisions. Hey, even if you fail, let's come back and talk about it and move forward. But also the pushing me out of my comfort zone. There has been numerous times where I'm like, "Yeah, I don't think I can do that." And someone in leadership is like, "I think you can. Let's try it out. Let's do it. If you have any questions, come talk to me. I'll help you in any way I can." So, even as a developer, I feel that same way.
\n\nAnd so I guess my question for you, Chad, is there's been a lot of decisions that I've seen you make or even this part right here, the trust. Because sometimes, money can override that when you're a CEO, especially because of jobs and everything. But you said fulfillment, and you had the values. But, Chad, as the CEO, like, why do you personally lead like that and make decisions like that?
\n\nCHAD: It's a really good question. [laughs]
\n\nWILL: I always wanted to peel back the layers of Chad.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: So that's what it is. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: To tie it back to development, just like you just did, I think a lot of our values and the way that we do things come from the way that we believe products should be designed and built. When I'm working on a project, I don't want to be told how to do everything. I don't want every ticket to be specified without me being part of the understanding or decision-making process.
\n\nI want to be able to collaborate with the people that I'm working with, understand the problems that we're trying to solve, and then pick up the ticket and do the research, figure out the best way to solve it or be part of that. And when it's not clear to me, ask questions, learn from other people about the right way to solve something might be, and then to implement it in the best way that I know how, and collaborate with the people that I'm working with as I do that.
\n\nAnd then I pick up that ticket, and I'm responsible for deploying it to staging and asking for acceptance of it. And I'm responsible for deploying it to production. So I'm pushing my work. I have agency over my work at every step of the way. I hope everyone who's listening has had an opportunity to be on a project where you've truly had agency over your own work. It's a really good, fulfilling feeling. And so I think that's where it comes from. I think that's what I try to bring to everything that I do.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I think that philosophy is what creates such a compelling company culture and makes people want to work here, right?
\n\nCHAD: I think so. Particularly because the work we do, the majority of us are designers and developers, but I don't think it's just design and develop. Like, it resonates a lot the relation to product work. But I think that's true for fulfillment in your own work generally across the board, no matter what your role is. People would rather have agency over their own work than to be micromanaged, to be told what to do all of the time.
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\n\nVICTORIA: In 20 years of hiring people and building products, what has really changed in terms of what you see customers looking for in building products, and what's stayed the same?
\n\nCHAD: There's a lot that has changed, mostly in terms of platforms and practices. When we were first getting started out, the practice of test-driven development was not generally established as a best practice. It was one that we needed to advocate for and fight for, and really put ourselves out there as this is what we believe about the way good products are built, and if you don't want that, we're not a good fit for each other. So that's what I mean by practices. A lot of those things that used to be controversial we sort of won on as they played out as, yes, general agreement now about certain best practices. And so that has evolved over time.
\n\nThe other is mobile development. You know, when we first started, that wasn't really a thing. We did some mobile development early on for Palm platforms and for Motorola platforms using different versions of Java. It was a very different ecosystem. And mobile development has evolved a lot and become...almost every project we do has some mobile component. And a lot of them are native mobile applications with an API back end that we're building as well. So that has been a big change.
\n\nThe things that stay the same are, I would say, the things that we have sort of been constant about. So in the way that best practices change or evolve, the constant has been that we put ourselves out there, willing to be opinionated about what we believe the current best way of working is. That means that the clients who work with us are coming to us wanting that.
\n\nAnd that leads to a culture of work and quality and that kind of thing, which I think has been pretty constant over the years. But it's not because we didn't try. Like, if we were willing to be anything to anybody and to compromise all the time and those kinds of things, it wouldn't be a constant. But we work at it, but I think that feeling of what it's like to do this work has been a constant.
\n\nWILL: Speaking of changes and constant changes sometimes, what's the story behind the handbook? Everyone at the company can access the handbook through GitHub and how [inaudible 29:35] Whose idea was it? How did that come to be? And explain how it's always changing and what that looks like.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. So, like you said, we have our company handbook and the public playbook in a source code repository that everyone at the company collaborates on and has access to change. I don't remember who initially moved it into version control. It started as a document. We worked with an outside payroll or HR company to make as our first company handbook. It had policies and those kinds of things in it. At one point, you know, we were doing some revisions, and maybe me, maybe somebody else said, "Let's move this out of this," whatever it was at the time, Word doc, or whatever, "and move it into Markdown and natural place we want to have version control on it."
\n\nBut even though we moved the document into version control and even though everyone at the company technically had access to it, I think for many years, we still did things like a lot of companies do, which is the version control in and of itself isn't the special thing. It's using GitHub issues to track actual problems that we know about, or potential issues that we know about, defects in our policies, our practices, the company itself, just like we do on our software products. That was the actual fundamental shift that we made because it completely changed the way that we make change at the company and organize the work that we do to improve the company.
\n\nAnd the way that that happened was, I think, prior to that, we made changes in a lot of ways that companies make changes. So some people know about some things, some people don't. Typically, senior leaders will get together often in meetings and talk about the issues that they see. And they tend to result in really big changes all at once that attempt to address multiple issues or make big reorganizational changes. And there's a tendency not to work iteratively when you work that way, and we did the same thing.
\n\nSo the sort of final big event that happened that triggered the fundamental change of working was, at the time, we had an unlimited time off policy. We had gone to that a few years prior because it was a trend in general. But also, we were tired of sort of tracking time and the permission that happens around time off and all that kind of stuff. So we had sort of blown it all up and gone to an unlimited time off policy. But it's more well understood now that unlimited time off policies have a few issues. And we were seeing those issues.
\n\nTime off was very inconsistent among everyone on the team. Particularly, new people would join the company, and they'd be like, okay, yes, but how much time am I supposed to really take? So that was one issue. Another issue was we wanted to increase the amount of parental leave that we offered as a company, like, on paper. Now, technically, we had the unlimited time off policy, but you want to give guidance to people, and you want to be able to say in a job advertisement that you have this much parental leave, you know.
\n\nAnd because we're a consulting company and we make our revenue when people are working, the question was asked, how much can we say that we have for parental leave? And it was a very uncomfortable position for us to be in to not be able to work that financially because we could say, okay, we have 12 weeks of parental leave. But, at any point in time, anyone else could take more time off for any other reason because we had unlimited time off policy. And the idea that we couldn't prioritize one kind of time off over another to make it work financially was uncomfortable to us.
\n\nAnd then, the state of California passed a sick time law, which was fundamentally incompatible with unlimited time off policies that lump sick time and vacation time together. And so we knew about these things. We got together in a meeting. We talked about them. And we put together a pull request to the handbook that, you know, we said, you know, we could probably fix any one of these problems. But probably all signs are pointing to just switching back to a regular time off policy.
\n\nAnd so we put together a pull request. You can probably guess since I'm telling this story that, generally, people were very surprised. It was a big change to take in all at once. And I think even though we have a high level of trust, as a company, it was hard for people who generally viewed an unlimited time off policy as a good thing. You know, they were worried that there was some ulterior motive there, that something was being taken away for some reason, maybe financial. So we worked through it, and the pull request is there for everyone at the company, so you can see.
\n\nAnna, when she opened the pull request, outlined all of those reasons why, but it was a lot of information to take in. And after we made it through, it sort of caused me to reflect on the process. And there was good criticism from members of the team at the time about the process, and we really took that in. And I think it was the state of California passing that law that the solution that we arrived at to mind for me because they passed the law in, whatever it was, the spring or the summer. And it wasn't going to go into effect until the new year.
\n\nAnd that's really no different than, you know, a new version of a library is going to come out, or a new version of an operating system or a browser is going to come out. And we know it's going to break our app. What do we do? We create a ticket in the backlog. We describe what the problem is. We prioritize it among everything else we're working on. And we make sure that the fix is in place in time for that to be released.
\n\nAnd yet, we weren't doing that for these very obvious defects or things that we knew were going to break an existing policy against this kind of stuff. So I was like, we could use GitHub issues to log problems that we know about that are out there, and not only would that have led to a lot more transparency along the way. When a change was made, people could have come along that journey with us of identifying the problem, being aware of it, being part of problem-solving, and coming to a resolution, and then getting a pull request.
\n\nBut more fundamentally, I think once you start to work that way, probably would have never made the change that we did in the first place because this way causes you to work more incrementally, to work more iteratively, to take each of the problems to try to identify the root cause and the best way to fix it. And very often, that is a smaller change that you can put into place more quickly. And we know that we don't need to get it perfect. We don't need to change absolutely everything about this all at once in order to fix every problem. We just need to make tomorrow better than today.
\n\nIf we can do that, then we know that, over time, it adds up to significant positive change that is very different a year from now or two years from now than what we're doing today. But we do that by chipping away and making tomorrow better than today. And so working this way with these discrete tickets, with this thing, there are downsides too, don't get me wrong. It's not all sunshine and rainbows. It's hard to work this way. But those are some of the benefits and sort of the story of how we arrived at how we do things.
\n\nWILL: I love that because I'm familiar with creating PRs, commenting on PRs, just giving feedback through PRs. And also, I've never been in a leadership meeting at thoughtbot, like, just never been in one. But I know that if I comment on a PR, my voice is heard with leadership making the decision. I love that idea.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, leadership meetings at thoughtbot are actually very boring.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Because the only things that we're talking about that aren't represented in GitHub issues are things that aren't proper for GitHub issues, so they're individual personal problems or things like that, or, hey, we're doing a leadership training and, you know, talking about that. Actual change, actual things that happen, are represented in those GitHub issues. And that's why it's super important that we have issues for everything because when we truly work this way, if something's not represented as an issue, it's not getting worked on.
\n\nThere's not a lot happening in leadership meetings other than those things that aren't ideal for GitHub issues, or we're going through, and we're saying, "Hey, this issue has been sitting around for a while," or "What's the update?" And you'll often see someone comment after the fact about an issue. Now, that being said, I think one of the hardest things about this is that when you expose these big issues, it can be a little discouraging over time to have them be around there to be not closed.
\n\nBut the way...I'll bring this back to our product work as well, like, when you identify...at least this is the case for me. A bug could have been there for two years, [chuckles] and I don't know about it, and therefore, it's out of sight, out of mind. I didn't know about it. But the minute I find out about a bug in a product that I'm working on, I can't stop thinking about it, and I want to fix it so badly. It becomes my top priority right away. [laughs]
\n\nAnd I have to remind myself that just because I know about something now doesn't mean it's actually the highest priority item, or that I can fix it, or that I should take the time to fix it. I know it's my natural tendency to do that. So shedding light on something that's positive in and of itself, and then we can chip away at that over time. And this way of working allows us to tackle big problems. But sometimes it doesn't feel so great because you're identifying sort of defects in the company itself that make everybody uncomfortable. But I would rather light be shed on those so that we have a chance to improve it than to have it go unidentified, just like bugs in our products.
\n\nVICTORIA: And just to illustrate, we have 162 open issues on our handbook. [laughter] But, you know, from my perspective, that makes me really excited, like, people are engaging with it. They're putting in issues and creating it. Because I've converted a company handbook to GitHub before, and no one ever looked at it. [laughs] So it was actually kind of nice that --
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: You said that it took some time to build up that interaction with it and make people feel comfortable. And I wanted to ask about actually your Dungeons & Dragons campaigns that you run with the company. And I'm wondering what skills or practices from that comes over into your leadership style or the culture at thoughtbot.
\n\nCHAD: Ooh, I'm not sure it's as deep as that, Victoria.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: I just really like [laughter] playing Dungeons & Dragons. But I will say the itch that it scratches for me and the reason why I like Dungeons & Dragons, and the reason why I'm really happy to play it with thoughtbot people...my degree is computer science. But all throughout elementary school, high school, I did improv and theater, and I have a degree in theater as well.
\n\nFor a long time, Dungeons & Dragons is essentially doing group improv with other people around a game. And to be able to bring those two things together with a group of people that I like to have fun with it's a really great outlet. And I really enjoy it. But I'm not sure that there's anything deeper than it sort of scratches that performance itch that I have with a group of people that I like to hang out with.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's fair. And then, just to kind of go back to one of our earlier questions we asked —what would you go back in time and advise your younger self —now, what if your younger person could travel to the future and give you some advice, looking at where you are at now?
\n\nCHAD: The only way that I've done this for 20 years is day by day. Like, each day, you get up, and you approach each day. This is the way I do it anyway. It's like I approach each day as a fresh day. And now, over thousands of days, it's been 20 years. And I think that that is part of why at least I've been able to do this so long is I don't do a lot of dwelling on what happened yesterday. I think about today and tomorrow much more than I do about what happened yesterday.
\n\nThe upside is I've been able to do this for 20 years. [laughs] The downside to that is you tend to not reflect so much on the good things, just like you don't reflect so much on the bad things. You tend to not celebrate the milestones when they happen or appreciate them as much because you're onto the next thing. You're thinking about tomorrow rather than yesterday. And so I would think that if my younger self came forward and talked to me today, I think the thing that he would say is like, hey, look at where you are, look at what you've done. Take a moment [laughs] to celebrate not only your work but, you know, this is true for the people around me.
\n\nI tend not to celebrate the accomplishments as much and everything because I'm very much someone who sort of lives in maybe not even the moment but the next moment that's about to happen. And so I think the person would say, relax a little bit, have a little bit more fun. Take a moment to celebrate the people around you a little bit more. I think that's what I would say to myself.
\n\nWILL: I love learning things that I didn't know about thoughtbot. So this has been perfect.
\n\nCHAD: Thank you both for the really thoughtful questions. And on the note of what I just [inaudible 44:53], thank you for everything that you both do at thoughtbot. I really appreciate it. We couldn't have accomplished everything that we have without the individuals [inaudible 45:01]. So I'm here sort of representing thoughtbot for our 20th anniversary, but it's not just me who got us to this point. It's been a lot of other people over the many years making it happen. And so I appreciate both of you for helping make it happen.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, thank you. And again, thank you so much for joining us.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nWILL: And you could find me @will23larry.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Sponsored By:
Brian Douglas is the CEO of OpenSauced which helps enterprises discover the best engineers in Open Source.
\n\nVictoria and Will talk to Brian about meeting as many developers as possible, setting goals, and keeping himself accountable, and what makes a successful open source project.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: Hey there. It's your host Victoria. And I'm here today with Dawn Delatte and Jordyn Bonds from our Ignite team. We are thrilled to announce the summer 2023 session of our new incubator program. If you have a business idea that involves a web or mobile app, we encourage you to apply for our 8-week program.
\n\nWe'll help you validate the market opportunity, experiment with messaging and product ideas, and move forward with confidence towards an MVP.
\n\nLearn more and apply at tbot.io/incubator. Dawn and Jordyn, thank you for joining and sharing the news with me today.
\n\nJORDYN: Thanks for having us.
\n\nDAWN: Yeah, glad to be here.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, tell me a little bit more about the incubator program. This will be your second session, right?
\n\nJORDYN: Indeed. We are just now wrapping up the first session. We had a really great 8 weeks, and we're excited to do it again.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. And I think we're going to have the person from your program on a Giant Robots episode soon.
\n\nJORDYN: Wonderful.
\n\nVICTORIA: Maybe you can give us a little preview. What were some of your main takeaways from this first round?
\n\nJORDYN: You know, as ever with early-stage work, it's about identifying your best early adopter market and user persona, and then learning as much as you possibly can about them to inform a roadmap to a product.
\n\nVICTORIA: What made you decide to start this incubator program this year with thoughtbot?
\n\nDAWN: We had been doing work with early-stage products and founders, as well as some innovation leads or research and development leads in existing organizations. We had been applying a lot of these processes, like the customer discovery process, Product Design Sprint process to validate new product ideas. And we've been doing that for a really long time.
\n\nAnd we've also been noodling on this idea of exploring how we might offer value even sooner to clients that are maybe pre-software product idea. Like many of the initiatives at thoughtbot, it was a little bit experimental for us. We decided to sort of dig into better understanding that market, and seeing how the expertise that we had could be applied in the earlier stage.
\n\nIt's also been a great opportunity for our team to learn and grow. We had Jordyn join our team as Director of Product Strategy. Their experience with having worked at startups and being an early-stage startup founder has been so wonderful for our team to engage with and learn from. And we've been able to offer that value to clients as well.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. So it's for people who have identified a problem, and they think they can come up with a software solution. But they're not quite at the point of being ready to actually build something yet. Is that right?
\n\nDAWN: Yeah. We've always championed the idea of doing your due diligence around validating the right thing to build. And so that's been a part of the process at thoughtbot for a really long time. But it's always been sort of in the context of building your MVP. So this is going slightly earlier with that idea and saying, what's the next right step for this business?
\n\nIt's really about understanding if there is a market and product opportunity, and then moving into exploring what that opportunity looks like. And then validating that and doing that through user research, and talking to customers, and applying early product and business strategy thinking to the process.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. So that probably sets you up for really building the right thing, keeping your overall investment costs lower because you're not wasting time building the wrong thing. And setting you up for that due diligence when you go to investors to say, here's how well I vetted out my idea. Here's the rigor that I applied to building the MVP.
\n\nJORDYN: Exactly. It's not just about convincing external stakeholders, so that's a key part. You know, maybe it's investors, maybe it's new team members you're looking to hire after the program. It could be anyone. But it's also about convincing yourself. Really, walking down the path of pursuing a startup is not a small undertaking. And we just want to make sure folks are starting with their best foot forward.
\n\nYou know, like Dawn said, let's build the right thing. Let's figure out what that thing is, and then we can think about how to build it right. That's a little quote from a book I really enjoy, by the way. I cannot take credit for that. [laughs] There's this really great book about early-stage validation called The Right It by Alberto Savoia.
\n\nHe was an engineer at Google, started a couple of startups himself, failed in some ways, failed to validate a market opportunity before marching off into building something. And the pain of that caused him to write this book about how to quickly and cheaply validate some market opportunity, market assumptions you might have when you're first starting out. The way he frames that is let's figure out if it's the right it before we build it right. And I just love that book, and I love that framing.
\n\nYou know, if you don't have a market for what you're building, or if they don't understand that they have the pain point you're solving for, it doesn't matter what you build. You got to do that first. And that's really what the focus of this incubator program is. It's that phase of work. Is there a there there? Is there something worth the hard, arduous path of building some software? Is there something there worth walking that path for before you start walking it?
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. I love that. Well, thank you both so much for coming on and sharing a little bit more about the program. I'm super excited to see what comes out of the first round, and then who gets selected for the second round. So I'm happy to help promote. Any other final takeaways for our listeners today?
\n\nDAWN: If this sounds intriguing to you, maybe you're at the stage where you're thinking about this process, I definitely encourage people to follow along. We're trying to share as much as we can about this process and this journey for us and our founders.
\n\nSo you can follow along on our blog, on LinkedIn. We're doing a LinkedIn live weekly with the founder in the program. We'll continue to do that with the next founders. And we're really trying to build a community and extend the community, you know, that thoughtbot has built with early-stage founders, so please join us. We'd love to have you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. That's amazing. Thank you both so much.
\n\nINTRO MUSIC:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido.
\n\nWILL: And I'm your host, Will WILL. And with us today is Brian Douglas, CEO of OpenSauced, helping enterprises discover best engineers in open source. Brian, thank you for joining us today.
\n\nBRIAN: My pleasure. Thanks for inviting me on the podcast.
\n\nVICTORIA: Just tell us a little bit more about OpenSauced.
\n\nBRIAN: Yeah, it's opensauced.pizza is the URL. So I always point that out because it's easy to found.
\n\nWILL: I love it.
\n\nBRIAN: And OpenSauced is a platform for engineers to find their next contributions and enterprises to discover the best engineers doing open-source, so...
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. So maybe tell me what led you to start this company?
\n\nBRIAN: Yeah, that's a great question. Actually, if you don't mind, I'll start further back. I graduated college in 2008 during the financial crisis with a finance degree. And what I learned pretty quickly is, like, if you don't know anybody in finance, it's a little hard to get a job in a bad market. So I took a sales role instead, mainly because I just wanted to learn. I was very much introverted. I wanted to learn how to talk to people, and have conversation, and communicate.
\n\nSo I did that four years and then got my MBA. And then started learning how to code while building an app, which is...I mentioned before we hit record I learned about this podcast around that time, which is, like, very serendipitous to be on this podcast years later. But, fast forward, OpenSauced, like, because of the whole networking aspect of how I got my job in sales and how I was able to do sales when I learned how to engineer, I knew the connection to open source, or how I learned how to code was, like, a wealth of information.
\n\nSo I made it my career goal to meet as many developers as possible. And then, I was working at this company called Netlify. I was employee number three there. And my role was to basically be a front-end engineer, but where I was actually getting more adoption to the product by doing open source. Like, every time I'd do an open-source contribution, I'd add a Netlify deploy preview manually in my PR. And that would give the maintainer enough juice to review the PR sooner.
\n\nAnd I was doing a lot of open-source contribution at the time. So I wanted to build a tool to maintain, like, all the PRs I had opened in-flight that I needed to respond back to or...because back in, like, 2016, notifications on GitHub they weren't the greatest.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nBRIAN: So I built a tool just to keep up to date on what I had opened and how I can communicate back with the maintainer. And saw a need...actually, I didn't see the need. I used this thing myself, and then in 2020, I started live streaming myself, building more features on top of this, like, CRM tool, and had a few people ask, "Hey, can you add a login to this? I'd love to use this, too, with my own database and stuff like that."
\n\nSo I did that. I added login. And I say database, like, we actually originally started with no database. We used GitHub Issues as a tracking mechanism for tracking repos and conversations. We've since moved away from that because, now, obviously, GitHub's got way more advanced in how notifications work. But the sort of ethos of the project still lives today, and what we have in the open-source platform. So that's, like, the long tale of how we got to where we are today.
\n\nAnd then, I spoke at GitHub Universe on OpenSauced back in 2017. And from that talk, I had GitHub employees reach out to me and ask me to work at GitHub. So I accepted, and I worked at GitHub for almost five years, sort of putting OpenSauced to the side up until last year, decided to go ahead and pursue it again. And at that point, decided to make it a company.
\n\nVICTORIA: What a cool story. There are so many things in there that I want to follow up on. I'm sure, Will, you also are like -- [laughs]
\n\nWILL: [laughs] Yes.
\n\nVICTORIA: I have so many questions. [laughs]
\n\nWILL: Wow, that's amazing just hearing the story from you [laughs] got a four-year degree in finance, 2008 happened, no job, very hard to get a job because of who you know. And then you go and changed directions to start learning to code. And I love how it's kind of guided your path to where you are here right now. Like, who knows? But would you have been the CEO of OpenSauced if 2008 would have never happened? So it's amazing to see it.
\n\nSo, I guess, because I love the idea of OpenSauced...because I am that developer that wants to get into open source, but it is hard. It is hard to find the issues that you can work on. It's hard to get into the community to do that. So, if you can just explain to me a little bit more as from there, and we can do it from the enterprise portion later. But, as far as a user: a developer, what does it look like for me to use OpenSauced as a developer?
\n\nBRIAN: Yeah, yeah. And that's a great question, too, as well. It's funny how serendipitous the story is today, but when I was living it, it was like, oh, man, I'm never going to get a job. [laughter] Or I'm never going to learn how to code. And I think anybody listening who might be where I was ten years ago, I just want to preface, like, your story is like a guided path through experiences. And every experience is like an opportunity for that sort of one piece of, like, the sort of stepping stone to move on to, like, CEO of whatever your next startup is or senior engineer, or staff engineer, whatever it is.
\n\nBut, to answer your question, Will, we built a Discord, and the Discord itself is how we sort of discovered this sort of onboard ramp into open source. So today, if you sign up to OpenSauced, again, opensauced.pizza, you connect to your GitHub account, and you get on-boarded into a flow to ask a couple questions. So, like, what languages are you interested in? And then, what time zone are you in?
\n\nAnd the reason for those two things is, one because we're going to do recommendations for projects pretty soon. Everything is open source, so you can literally see the issues that are open about recommendations; happy to take contributions and feedback on it. And then time zone is because communication is pretty key. So, like, if someone is not awake when I see their PR, I have an expectation of, like, cool, I'll write a response, and I'll wait for them to wake up and respond back to that.
\n\nSo the goal there is there's a lot of projects on GitHub, like, 372 million repos is the number off the top of my head. They literally announce this stuff, and they share the data. But of those repos, only 225,000 have more than five contributors. Understanding what you're looking to accomplish first out of doing open source to either share knowledge, or gain knowledge, to get exposure, to get a job, or just to enhance your current job by go try something that's not in the roadmap of what you're working on.
\n\nEventually, we'll start asking those questions around, like, what type of contributor that you want to be, so we can start recommending those types of projects. But I mentioned that 225,000 repo number because there are a lot of projects that don't have five contributors that could use their second contributor, or third, fourth. And my recommendation is always find up-and-coming, like, growth-stage projects.
\n\nA lot of people want to contribute to React. You had mentioned you did React, Will. That's a really big lift to go contribute upstream to a project maintained and supported by millions of enterprises around the world. But there are tons of projects that go trending every week that have no documentation, that have no README, that have no structure and are just getting off the ground. Like, those are the best projects that we try to showcase. So, like, that's hot.opensauced.pizza is our sort of up-and-coming project list.
\n\nAnd the way that works is like projects that are trending based on our open-source community; we surface those there. There's a lot of work we have to do on that project. That was, like, a Hack Week project we did a couple of years ago as a community. But the basis of that is they're looking to build our recommendation engine off that.
\n\nSo, step one is find a project that is welcoming, that needs some work done, and then find the path in. So the path usually is going to be your CONTRIBUTING.md, which is like established projects will have this. But if you don't find a CONTRIBUTING.md, but you find a project you want to use, chances are you could build that CONTRIBUTING.md and ask the question, so, like, hey, how would I contribute? Like, how can I be supportive?
\n\nActually, I did this talk a couple of years ago at Juneteenth Conf. It was a remote conference on Juneteenth, which a bunch of Black Engineers we all gave our technical expertise sponsored by Microsoft. And I was talking about the idea of open-source hospitality. The best thing you could do is be that sort of hospitable person, either you're a maintainer or a first-time contributor. Like, be that person to set it up for the next person behind you.
\n\nAnd the idea of hospitality, you go to a hotel. Like, you know where the towels are. Like, you know where the soaps are. Like, you know exactly where everything is all the time. And, in open source, like, if we could set up our projects in a very similar fashion, like, not franchise them in a way like the Hilton or Marriott, but set the expectation that there is a way to source information and to interact and operate, so...
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I mean, I love, [laughs] like, hot.opensauced.pizza. That's hilarious. And I love how you have used humor to...even though it's a very serious product, we're making it more friendly and more hospitable like you're saying. And I like how you said, you know, the journey is cool looking back on it, but it was really hard to go through it. And now you're this wonderful speaker and a CEO.
\n\nBut you said that you weren't actually good at talking to people at first. And you specifically sought to get better at that skill. So I wonder if you would share more about that, how that's impacted your career, and why that's important as a developer to have those communication skills.
\n\nBRIAN: Yeah, it's like...I have a twin brother since birth, basically. And my twin brother is very extroverted. Like, he actually used to wait tables in college. It was like he was the person that would make you feel very special as a server. Like, he's the type of person that kind of lights up the room when you walk in. His name is Brock. My entire life growing up, I was always Brock's brother. And it's like, oh, you're Brock's brother. And it's like, yeah, I'm Brock's brother.
\n\nAnd I'm more of a person, like, if you meet me in person, like, I'm very much reserved. I'm sort of reading the room, waiting for my point to jump in. And I made it a point for me to, like, have enough comfort to speak on a podcast or speak at a conference because I knew that skill set would be valuable. Because I definitely had, in my sales career, definitely got overlooked for a lot of opportunity because folks thought, oh, I don't think Brian could do it.
\n\nSo coming into tech and seeing that when every time I went to a meet up...because meetups also are places where I cut my teeth and got to learn about the industry and the community. They always needed someone to speak. So I was, like, oh, there's an opportunity. I can leverage this opportunity of them always looking for speakers and me always wanting to share knowledge and learn something new to do talks.
\n\nSo my first-ever conference talk was in San Francisco. And I had learned React Native, but prior to React Native, I had learned Objective-C. And then, in between Objective-C and React Native, I learned Swift because React Native and Swift came out the same year. Well, React Native went public, open source, the same year as Swift. So it was like a really interesting year back in; I think it was 2017 where...actually, it might have been 2016.
\n\nBut, anyway, everything came out at the same time. And I was learning iOS development. So I made it a point for me to give a talk. But my pet peeve for giving talks is, a lot of times, people just go directly into the code, and there's, like, no connection to a story, or why do I care about this?
\n\nSo I always bring storytelling into my conversations and talks. So, like, that talk about Swift, and Objective-C, and React Native, I made the comparison of, like...it was the same year that Kanye West took the mic from Taylor Swift at the VMAs or whatever the award show was. And the correlation was React Native took the mic away from Swift because it built similar interactions for JavaScript developers to understand and build iOS applications that was not like Ionic or RubyMine or...I forgot the Ruby one.
\nBut, anyway, what I'm getting at is, I just wanted to bring story to this because usually what happens is like, you see cool things, but you never remember what the name is. You try to find that REPL again, or you try to figure out who that speaker is. And it's usually hard to find it after the fact. So, like, my goal was always to make it memorable, which is why I go by Bdougie because Bdougie is easier to Google than Brian Douglas. Shout out to Brian Douglas, who's based in Ireland who does system engineering, and has a great YouTube channel. Like, I want to be memorable. And I want to make it easy for folks to find me after.
So, while at GitHub, when I was developing all this sort of like Kanye West-type speaking and stuff like that, well, literally, I would use Kanye West years ago as the example to understand storytelling. I no longer use Kanye West. I'm now a Beyoncé advocate. [laughter] So I use Beyoncé instead.
\n\nBut I guess what I'm getting at is, like, I just had a goal. And I knew if I could teach myself to code...and it was about 17 weeks it took me from zero to ship a Ruby on Rails app. And I felt confident enough to talk about it. I knew basically anything I could just accomplish just by putting some effort and consistency behind it. So that's the...sorry, that was a little more long-winded than expected. But I just keep accountable and set goals for myself and try to achieve enough to feel proud about at the end of the year.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. It's so funny because I recently had a similar situation. At thoughtbot, we try to engage with the community, and one of the ways was writing a blog post. I've never been a writer. It just hasn't been my thing. But I was telling my boss, I was like, I'm going to do that to get outside my comfort zone and to really stretch myself. And at the same time, I was like, why a blog post? Like, I don't know, it doesn't really make sense why a blog post.
\n\nWell, when I started writing the blog post, I was like, oh, you have to really know, one, what you're talking about in order to write about it. And so I had to really do some research, really had to study it. And I finished it last week. And then, now, looking back over the last couple of months it took me to write that blog post, I'm like, wow, I feel stretched. But I feel really good, and I feel really good about the topic that I did.
\n\nSo that's interesting that you went through that process to stretch yourself and to grow and even learning to code and get to that point. So talking about...you were at Netlify, and then you worked at GitHub. And then you're at your current one OpenSauced. How have Netlify and GitHub, the work that you did there, how has it prepared you for your position right now?
\n\nBRIAN: You know, actually, that's a great question. I don't know how much thought I put into that. Like, Netlify prepared me because it gave me an opportunity. So I was employee number three, but I had a sales background. And so I got to be an engineer, but they kept always trying to ask me like, you know, business questions and strategy. And, like, I pitched them a 30-60-90 in my interview of, like, what's the growth strategy of Netlify, like day zero when I start?
\n\nAnd I go into way more detail in other content. But that prepared me because I got to see how startups work, being so early. I got to see that startup go from seed-funded, just closed their seed round to get their series B is when I left. At GitHub, I got to see what it looked like at a bigger company, which, like, it doesn't matter how big or small you are, like, there's always chaos.
\n\nLike, GitHub was, like, so much chaos, and there was a lot of good that was happening but a lot of uncertainty at the time I joined in 2018. And then, nine months later, Microsoft acquired GitHub. So then I got to learn stability and what it looks like to...for personal reasons, I always had a budget but never had extra money, even years into my engineering career. And that taught me what it looks like when success meets career.
\n\nWith that being said, like, the problem that I'm solving, I got to learn firsthand while being at Netlify and getting adoption and traction through open source. And then going to GitHub and seeing every single other company that looked at GitHub as a solution to their open-source collaborations and interactions. And then also seeing that there was a hole in just understanding, like, how do you survive? How do you sustain yourself as your career but also your open-source project?
\n\nLike, a lot of folks want to know, like, what success looks like for open source. Like, how do you get on the trending algorithm? Like, how do you get noticed? It's more than just pushing to GitHub and hoping for the best. There are, like, other things that happen for projects to be successful. And for us to choose the next in the future technologies, it really comes down to community, marketing, and then resources. And those three things end up making projects successful. With OpenSauced, we're working to help inflate some storytelling and add some of those resources to open-source projects.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. So you were able to really get, like, the full vision of what it could be if you had a product that became successful and stable, and you knew you wanted to build it on open source. So I love that you really just...you had this problem, and that's what you built the product around. And that ended up becoming the business. What was surprising for you in those early discovery phases with OpenSauced when you were first thinking of building it?
\n\nBRIAN: I guess what's really surprising is we're not, like, crazy traction today. But we've done a pretty good job of getting, like, 2,000 developers to sign up to it since December. And then the conversations with enterprises so far just by the sheer...like, basically, what was surprising is if you use proper sales technique and you're early stage as a startup, so, like, not necessarily hire salespeople, but as a founder or as a stakeholder, just go talk to your future customers and your users. Everyone says it, but that's actually super valuable.
\n\nAnd I think in the same vein of open source, folks they see projects die on the vine, but then you see projects succeed. And I think it also comes down to how often the maintainer of the project is talking to the contributors and the users and also that distinction as well. There are folks who want to contribute code to the codebase, but then there are folks who want to use the codebase. And, like, how do you interact between the two? And how do you cross the chasm for those folks as well?
\n\nAnd, a lot of times, it's just fascinating just, like, just by trying, and just by showing up, that's half. It's all cliché stuff, like, I could say, but it's all true. Like, showing up is, like, it's, like, step one. Just show up, do the thing, do the work. And then talk to people is, like, step two. And it's hard to say, like, okay, yeah, because we are not a multibillion-dollar company, like, we're just getting started. So I can't say, like, yeah, we're super successful. But we've survived the year.
\n\nAnd we've survived the year based on those two steps, the showing up and then talking to people. Because a lot of times, we could get lost in the sauce, per se, of just shipping code and never talking to anybody and never coming up for air. And I think what I learned, going back to what I learned from GitHub and Netlify, is talking to people and getting that feedback loop going is the best thing you could do for any product. Any early project, any feature you're working on, talk to people about it and see if it's actually valuable for somebody that after you ship it, something will happen.
\n\nWILL: You're talking about communication is a big thing for a successful project. Have you noticed any other trends that make a successful open-source project?
\n\nBRIAN: Yeah, that's...Any other trends? Yeah. I mean, AI, [laughs] just kidding.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nBRIAN: No, I mean, but it also it is true, like, having a trend not sort of following the herd, but catching the herd earlier is extremely valuable. Like, at Netlify, we caught the trend of React. So, basically, Netlify built essentially GitHub Pages but a product and a company. And that was, like, the original project of Netlify. It's expanded so much further from that. But at that time, when I joined, I joined three months before Create React App was developed. So, like, it was a CLI tool to build React apps easy.
\n\nAnd, prior to that, React was, like, super complicated to get up and running. Like, you had to know Webpack. You had to know, Babel. You had to make all that glue happen together. And then there wasn't an easy process to go host it somewhere. So the prevalence of build tools like Grunt, and Gulp, and Browserify, they all made it easier to build a static output from React. And that trend is what took Netlify to where it is today.
\n\nIt's like, people needed a place to deploy these static applications. GitHub Pages was like the solution for a lot of folks. Because Heroku, like, why pay $7 for something you could host on S3 for free? But the challenge was S3 it requires way more thought in how you host and take it down and deploy, and then it becomes like a Kubernetes nightmare. So the trend there was, like, people just wanted to have a better developer experience.
\n\nWhen it comes to, like, open source, the developer experience in JavaScript has improved so much more. But folks are now looking at the next thing like a Zig, or a Rust, or all these other new languages and server renderings and stuff like that. So I guess when I take a step back, when I look at how I chose things I wanted to work on, and communities I wanted to hang out in...before committing to React...I'm based out here in Oakland, so San Francisco, basically.
\n\nBy seeing the sheer number of RSVPs to the React meetup, it made me confident that React would be something I should pay attention to. When you look at the RSVPs of now all these AI meetups that are happening in San Francisco, like, every single weekend is a hackathon. Highly confident that if you're engineering today, you probably want to know what embeddings are and know how OpenAI works. Not that you necessarily have to build AI stuff, but it is going to be the thing that people are going to be using.
\n\nSo just like we had to learn build tools, and servers, and CDNs prior, now it's all trivial stuff that you can sort of use Cloudflare for free. Like, AI is going to be very similar, and it's probably going to happen much quicker. But, in the time being, the trend right now is, like, you should probably understand whatever the players are in that space so that way you're able to talk confidently about it.
\n\nWILL: That's really good advice, yep.
\n\nVICTORIA: Absolutely. And, you know, in my role as Managing Director of Mission Control, or, like, DevOps, SRE platform, I spend a lot of time looking at trends, more on the engineering side. So I think my question is, [laughs] as someone who hires people to work on open-source projects, and who actively maintains and contributes to open-source projects, what should I be thinking about how to use OpenSauced as in my role?
\n\nBRIAN: For hiring and sourcing skilled folks, we're actually working on a tool right now to make it more discoverable. So, today, when you onboard as an individual developer, you can check a box in your settings to say, like, if you want to collaborate with other folks, you have to opt into it. So if you want to be discovered on OpenSauced, it's in the settings. We'll probably expose that and share more about that in the future, like, in the next month or so.
\n\nBut for, in particular, our user flow today for folks looking to find other people to contribute alongside their project is, you add your project to what we call an Insight Page. You click on the tab on the top and create a page with your project. And then, you can see contributions in your project in the last 30 days. And then you can also add other projects like your project, so you can see who else is contributing.
\n\nSo, that way, you can start discovering folks who are making contributions consistently and start to get some stories of, like, if they're interested in collaborating, they'll check that box; if they're not, the box won't be checked. But at least you know the sort of scope of the ecosystem.
\n\nAs an individual developer, we have the onboarding flow, but then we also have highlights. So, eventually, we'll do recommendations to get you to make contributions. But, for now, if you're already making contributions, you can highlight the contributions you've made so that way, you're more discoverable on the platform. And the highlights are very much like a LinkedIn post or a tweet. You just drop in a PR, and then we'll either generate that description for you, or you write a description: I did a thing. This is what it was. This was the experience.
\n\nAnd then, now you're attached to the project through not just a code contribution but also a discovery mechanism, which is a highlight. And then, eventually, we'll start doing blog posts, and guides, and stuff like that, as they're written. Like, if you want to attribute your career, and your journey to your participation to, like, documentation updates and stuff like that, those will also be highlights coming soon.
\n\nWILL: I love, love, love that.
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\n\nWILL: I hear you saying that you have some things that's coming soon. In a high, high level, what are some of the things that you have coming? And what does success look like, six months, a year? What does that look like? Because it sounds like you have some really good ideas that you're working on.
\n\nBRIAN: Yeah, yeah. So, like, six months to the end of the year, what we want to do is actually start getting more deeper insights to what's happening in open source. What we're doing right now is building the individual developer profile and experience so that way, they're able to be discovered, find projects to work on. And then what's next is there are tons of enterprises and companies that are maintaining open-source projects, SDKs.
\n\nAnd what we're seeing right now is we're seeing massive layoffs happening currently in the industry. So like, as of today, I think Facebook laid off 4,000 people, ESPN laid off, like, 7,000 Disney employees as well. And some of those employees are around the Disney+ place. It's a lot of technical engineering stuff. So I guess what I'm getting at is there...we want to be able to see the trends of places that activity is happening and start recommending people to that.
\n\nBut also, we want to give an opportunity for folks who...companies...sorry, I'm avoiding trying to name specific companies because nothing is in contract yet. But certain companies, like, you, don't think of as an open-source powerhouse. So, like, a company we're now talking to right now is walgreens.com. And Walgreens they have tech. They've got open source that they participated. But they're not thought of as a place like, oh, I want to go work at Walgreens and go work on some cloud infrastructure stuff.
\n\nSo, how does Walgreens get exposure? And, like, hey, we're involved in the kubectl, and the Kubernetes platform and stuff like that, like, be aware that there's opportunity here. So we're going to start driving that connection to folks. So, as you develop your career doing open source, you can also be noticed, and folks can reach out to you.
\n\nAnd also, I want to stand on the notion of open source is not for everybody. But I also want to point out, like, my entire career in open source has not been nights and weekends. It's always been finding a company that supports my interest to do open-source at work.
\n\nPart of my story is, like, I was getting an MBA. My first kid, who's nine years old now he, was born 11 weeks early. And he's the reason why I built an app because I wanted to build an app to solve a pain point that I had, and ended up building that in 17 weeks. And that turned into opportunity.
\n\nSo I guess what I'm getting at is, like, folks being laid off right now, you might have some extra free time. You might be submitting like 100 applications a day. Consider taking that down to 50 applications a day, and then try to contribute to a couple of open-source projects a month. So that way, there's some more story to be shared as you're in the job market.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that you created that app when you had your son and you had that need. And for developers wanting to get noticed and wanting to get their next leg up or maybe even negotiate for higher salaries, what's the traditional way people do that now to kind of highlight themselves?
\n\nBRIAN: The traditional way what people are doing is they're tweeting. They're speaking at conferences. They're sharing their stories. It's like zero to I'm an influencer in the open-source space. There's no real clear guide and steps to get to that point, which is why we have highlights today. Like, we want to make it low effort for folks to write 200 characters about something they contributed to.
\n\nWe're actually working on something to generate pull request descriptions because I think that's another missed opportunity. Like, when you open a PR in an open-source project, and it says no description added, like, that's a missed opportunity. Like, there's an opportunity for you to share what you've learned, what Stack Overflow questions you looked at, like, how you got to the problem, and why this is the right solution. All should be in the pull request description.
\n\nAnd then that pull request should be in your cover letter for your resume so that people can go back and say, "Oh, wow, you did some real work." I can go see the history of your contributions because perhaps the job you got let go from you only worked in private repos. You couldn't really showcase your skills. That now gives you a competitive edge.
\n\nAnd I guess when I look into this, like, going back to my original onboard ramp into engineering, I graduated with a finance degree with no network. I had one internship at an insurance company, but that wasn't enough. Like, everyone who I interned with, like, the guy who got a job at the internship, like, his dad was a client, was a big client at that firm. And another guy he worked at a golf course, and he'd be the caddy for all these big finance folks where I went to school.
\n\nSo, once I learned that there's an opportunity to get a job by just knowing people, that changed my entire path. Like, when I got to sales, like, oh, or when I got to engineering, I just knew go and meet people. Go have conversations. Go to meetups.
\n\nWhat I'm trying to do with OpenSauced is make that step closer for folks, so they could look up and be like, you know, I've made all these contributions, or I don't know where to start. Let me just look at people who I know and follow in the industry and see where they're contributing, and make that connection. So, like, we've kind of closed that gap without the need of, again, you don't need 100,000 Twitter followers to get noticed. Just make some contributions or show up and ask questions. And, hopefully, that's the first step to establishing your career.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, that sounds great for both people who are looking to get hired, but also, as someone who hires people, [laughter] I know that there's a lot of amazing developers who are never going to do a conference talk, or they're not going to post on Twitter. So I love that that's available, and that's something you're working on.
\n\nBRIAN: Yeah, it's just coming out of my own pain of, like, I was saying, like, looking at the story now, it sounds great. [laughs] But part of that story was like, hey, I was getting severely underpaid as an engineer in San Francisco, living in a one-bedroom apartment with two kids. Like, all that part of the story is like nothing I dwell on. But it's like, all that opportunity and knowledge-sharing that I ended up benefiting from, it's like what I constantly try to give. I pay it forward with folks.
\n\nAnd I'm more than happy to talk with folks on Twitter and in OpenSauced Discord and other places because I think there's a lot of opportunity in open source. And if anybody's willing to listen, I'm willing to show them the path.
\n\nWILL: I'm so glad you brought that up because this is one of my favorite questions I ask on the podcast: So, knowing where you're at right now and your story, you've gone the ups, the downs, all of it. If you can go back in time and know what you know now, what advice would you give yourself at the beginning?
\n\nBRIAN: Honestly, I would say write it down. Like, one thing that I did is I did a blog post, and that's part of the reason why I was able to find my first job in engineering is I started a blog, which was really for myself to learn what I did yesterday. I tell everyone who I mentor it takes two hours every time you want to sit and learn something new because one hour is to remember what you did yesterday, and then one hour is to do something new. And so, I usually write it down and then make it a blog post just to solve that problem.
\n\nI wish I did more with that, like, you know, wrote a book, or created a YouTube channel, or something because all that knowledge and that sort of sharing is actually what got me to level up faster. I was asked by one of my close friends, like, "Hey, how do you do it? How do you accomplish everything you've done in the last, like, 9-10 years?" And I didn't know what the answer was then. But the answer today for my friend, and I'll share this with them, is it's because I wrote it down.
\n\nI was able to go back and see what I did. And then, at the end of six months, I was able to go back six months and see what I did. It's like the idea of relativity with, like, Einstein. Relativity is the idea of motion and the perception. Like, if you're in a train, it feels like you're just going slow. But you might be going 100 miles per hour, but you don't feel that. And when you're going on your journey, you could be going 100 miles per hour, but you're thinking, oh, man, I failed yesterday. I could have solved a problem. But yeah, you solved six problems while trying to solve for one. It's that situation.
\n\nSo advice for myself, in the beginning, write it down and then share it way more than I did when I started. Because a lot of the stuff I'm like, even in this conversation, I'm thinking, oh yeah, this, this, and this. And I never shared that before, and I wish I did. So yeah.
\n\nWILL: I love that. Because yeah, I feel like that's development, like, you have some weeks that you're shipping out multiple features. And then other weeks, you're like, I barely got one out, or I barely fixed this one bug that I've been trying to...struggling with the last couple of weeks. So yeah, I like that advice. Write it down.
\n\nAnd remember where you've been, remember. I just love the example you used, too, because it does seem like I haven't made any movement. But when you look back, you're like, no, you actually made a lot of movement. And you were very successful with what you did. So that's great advice.
\n\nVICTORIA: I sometimes write things, and then I go back maybe six months later and read them. And I'm like, who wrote this? [laughter] I don't remember learning this stuff. Oh yeah, I guess I did, right, yeah. [laughs] No, that's so cool. What questions do you have for us, Brian?
\n\nBRIAN: I'm curious in, like, how do thoughtbot folks stay up to date? Like, what does your involvement in open source look like today?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, so we are known for being active maintainers of a lot of very popular Ruby on Rails gems. So we're a consulting agency. So we're able to structure our time with our clients so that we can build in what we call investment days, which is typically Fridays, so that people can contribute to open-source projects. They can write blog posts. They can do trainings. And so that gives us the structure to be able to actually allow our employees to contribute to open source, and it's a huge part of our business as well.
\n\nSo if you have a Ruby on Rails project, you're probably using one of our gems. [laughs] And so, when there's other crises or other things happening in an organization, and they want to bring in an expert, they know that that's who thoughtbot is. Of course, we've expanded, and we do React, and now we're doing platform engineering. And we have some open-source TerraForm modules that we use to migrate people onto AWS and operate at that enterprise level with a mix of managed products from AWS as well.
\n\nAnd that continues to be, like, how we talk to people [laughs] and get that buzzword out there is, like, okay, there's this cool open-source project. Like, one I'm excited about now is OpenTelemetry. And so we're digging into that and figuring out how we can contribute. And can we make a big impact here? And that just opens the door to conversations in a way that is less salesy, right? [laughs]
\n\nAnd people know us as the contributors and maintainers, and that creates a level of trust that goes a long way. And also, it really speaks to how we operate as a company as well, where the code is open and when we give it back to the customers, it's not. Some organizations will build stuff and then never give it to you. [laughs]
\n\nBRIAN: Yeah. So it sounds like folks at thoughtbot could probably benefit from things like OpenSauced for discoverability. And I get a lot of conversation around in OpenSauced as like, how do I get connected to maintainer of X or maintainer of Y? And the first step is like, how do I even know who the maintainer is? Because when you go to GitHub, you could sort this by last commit date, which not a lot of people know. You can sort the contributors by most frequently and stuff like that.
\n\nBut it's challenging to find out who to reach out to when it comes to packages, especially when people move on. Like, someone created a thing. They have tons of commits. And then they look like they're the number one committer for the past ten years, but they left five years ago. Those are things that we're trying to make more discoverable to solve that problem.
\n\nBut then, going into that thoughtbot thing, is like being able to reach out to thoughtbot and be like, oh, who can I reach out to about this gem? And, say, I have an idea, or we have an issue; how can we get unblocked because we're using this in our product? And I imagine with consulting, there's an opportunity to say, hey thoughtbot...which, honestly, at Netlify, we used thoughtbot to solve some harder problems for us. We were just like, yeah, we don't have the bandwidth to go down this path. Let's go to consulting to unblock us in this arena.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And that was really important to me in making the decision to join thoughtbot last year is that it was built around open source. And that ethos really spoke to me as, like, this is a place where I want to work. [laughs] And you can think of, like, if you're looking for vendors, like, oh, I want to work with people who have that same ethos. So yeah, OpenSauced seems like a really cool product. I'd be curious about how we can leverage it more at thoughtbot.
\n\nBRIAN: We just shipped a feature called Teams, which it's self-explanatory. But, basically, when you build an insight page, you're able to build a team to help the discover process of what's happening in contributions. You get details and reporting on OpenSauced. The goal is basically to unblock teams who are involved in open source together and make it more discoverable for folks who want to find maintainers and collaborate with them.
\n\nVICTORIA: Will, I know we're running close on time. But I had one more question about what you said around making open source more hospitable. And, you know, you mentioned going to Juneteenth Conf. And I'm curious if you have a perspective on if open source is equitably accessible to everyone or if there are things we can be doing as a community to be more inclusive.
\n\nBRIAN: Yeah, it's a great question. So the first answer is quick, it's no. The reason why it's no is because we have to admit [laughs] where there are inequitable situations. And as much as we want to set this up of, like, I want to say that there's opportunity for everyone to contribute based on no matter where their background, but just by your time zone, makes it inequitable of, like, whether you can contribute to open source. Because if you look at the data and zoom out, most open source happens in the West Coast U.S., so from San Francisco to Seattle. Like, majority of contributions are there. There are reasons for that.
\n\nLike, California has a very, very expressive clause of like where you can contribute. And, technically, your employer can block you on doing open-source contributions. Unless you sign...like, at Apple, you sign away your rights to be able to do that in your employee offer letter. Sorry, [laughs] not to be a dig against Apple. Apple buy lots of open source. But what I'm getting at is that the opportunity is there, but it's the awareness thing.
\n\nI'm part of an organization called DevColor. It's an organization of Black engineers in tech. We have squads and monthly meetings where we just talk about our career, and growth, and stuff like that. And I attribute a lot of that interactions to my success is, like, talking to other folks who are years ahead of me and have a lot more experience.
\n\nBut I say this because the majority of the folks that I interact with at DevColor they don't do open source because they all...to be a Black engineer at a level of like senior engineer at Netlify, or a staff engineer, or a manager...sorry, I meant, like, Netflix but Netlify too. You basically had a career path of, like, you probably went to school at a decent engineering school, or you figured out how to get a job at Facebook or Google. And, like, that's pretty much it.
\n\nAnd, like, this is a blanket statement. I totally understand there are outliers. But the majority of the folks I interact with at DevColor they have a job. They have a great job. And they're doing the thing, and they're being very successful. But there's less community interaction. And that's what DevColor exists for is to encourage that community interaction and participation.
\n\nSo, at the end of the day, like, there's opportunity to make it more equitable. So things like, every time there's a release cut for a major open-source project, why not go to Black Girls CODE and have them build something with it?
\n\nAnd, again, very specific, like, React 19 that's currently being tested, why not go to all these other underrepresented organizations and partner with them to show them how to use this project? Because the assumption is everyone in open source, you got to be senior enough to participate, or if it's too hot, get out of the kitchen. But if we set up a place for people to interact and level up, in three or four years from now, you'll see the open-source ecosystem of that project be completely different as far as diversity.
\n\nBut it takes that investment to have that onboard ramp to even have that connection or conversation about testing early releases with underrepresented groups in engineering. That's where we have to start, and that's what we're trying to do at OpenSauced. We want to make that connection. I have a whole plan for it. I'll share in a blog post. I also mentioned that a lot of these thoughts are on our blog as well. I've been writing blog posts around these conversations. So opensauced.pizza/blog if you're interested.
\n\nVICTORIA: Very cool. Thank you for that.
\n\nWILL: I'm just processing on the whole conversation. It has just been great.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes. Thank you so much for sharing with us. And I wonder, do you have any final takeaways for our listeners today, Brian?
\n\nBRIAN: Yeah, final takeaways. Like, if anything at all resonated in this conversation, please reach out, bdougie on GitHub. I'm pretty active with my notifications. So if you @ mention me in a random project, I'll probably jump back in and respond to you. But also Twitter @bdougieYO. And then, I mentioned our blog. We also have a newsletter. So, if you're interested in any of this OpenSauced journey, please join us there, and keep in touch.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your story.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nWILL: And you could find me @will23larry
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Brian Douglas.
Sponsored By:
Lauren Maffeo is the author of Designing Data Governance from the Ground Up.
\n\nVictoria talks to Lauren about human-centered design work, data stewardship and governance, and writing a book anybody can use regardless of industry or team size.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: Hey there. It's your host Victoria. And I'm here today with Dawn Delatte and Jordyn Bonds from our Ignite team. We are thrilled to announce the summer 2023 session of our new incubator program. If you have a business idea that involves a web or mobile app, we encourage you to apply for our 8-week program.
\n\nWe'll help you validate the market opportunity, experiment with messaging and product ideas, and move forward with confidence towards an MVP.
\n\nLearn more and apply at tbot.io/incubator. Dawn and Jordyn, thank you for joining and sharing the news with me today.
\n\nJORDYN: Thanks for having us.
\n\nDAWN: Yeah, glad to be here.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, tell me a little bit more about the incubator program. This will be your second session, right?
\n\nJORDYN: Indeed. We are just now wrapping up the first session. We had a really great 8 weeks, and we're excited to do it again.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. And I think we're going to have the person from your program on a Giant Robots episode soon.
\n\nJORDYN: Wonderful.
\n\nVICTORIA: Maybe you can give us a little preview. What were some of your main takeaways from this first round?
\n\nJORDYN: You know, as ever with early-stage work, it's about identifying your best early adopter market and user persona, and then learning as much as you possibly can about them to inform a roadmap to a product.
\n\nVICTORIA: What made you decide to start this incubator program this year with thoughtbot?
\n\nDAWN: We had been doing work with early-stage products and founders, as well as some innovation leads or research and development leads in existing organizations. We had been applying a lot of these processes, like the customer discovery process, Product Design Sprint process to validate new product ideas. And we've been doing that for a really long time.
\n\nAnd we've also been noodling on this idea of exploring how we might offer value even sooner to clients that are maybe pre-software product idea. Like many of the initiatives at thoughtbot, it was a little bit experimental for us. We decided to sort of dig into better understanding that market, and seeing how the expertise that we had could be applied in the earlier stage.
\n\nIt's also been a great opportunity for our team to learn and grow. We had Jordyn join our team as Director of Product Strategy. Their experience with having worked at startups and being an early-stage startup founder has been so wonderful for our team to engage with and learn from. And we've been able to offer that value to clients as well.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. So it's for people who have identified a problem, and they think they can come up with a software solution. But they're not quite at the point of being ready to actually build something yet. Is that right?
\n\nDAWN: Yeah. We've always championed the idea of doing your due diligence around validating the right thing to build. And so that's been a part of the process at thoughtbot for a really long time. But it's always been sort of in the context of building your MVP. So this is going slightly earlier with that idea and saying, what's the next right step for this business?
\n\nIt's really about understanding if there is a market and product opportunity, and then moving into exploring what that opportunity looks like. And then validating that and doing that through user research, and talking to customers, and applying early product and business strategy thinking to the process.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. So that probably sets you up for really building the right thing, keeping your overall investment costs lower because you're not wasting time building the wrong thing. And setting you up for that due diligence when you go to investors to say, here's how well I vetted out my idea. Here's the rigor that I applied to building the MVP.
\n\nJORDYN: Exactly. It's not just about convincing external stakeholders, so that's a key part. You know, maybe it's investors, maybe it's new team members you're looking to hire after the program. It could be anyone. But it's also about convincing yourself. Really, walking down the path of pursuing a startup is not a small undertaking. And we just want to make sure folks are starting with their best foot forward.
\n\nYou know, like Dawn said, let's build the right thing. Let's figure out what that thing is, and then we can think about how to build it right. That's a little quote from a book I really enjoy, by the way. I cannot take credit for that. [laughs] There's this really great book about early-stage validation called The Right It by Alberto Savoia.
\n\nHe was an engineer at Google, started a couple of startups himself, failed in some ways, failed to validate a market opportunity before marching off into building something. And the pain of that caused him to write this book about how to quickly and cheaply validate some market opportunity, market assumptions you might have when you're first starting out. The way he frames that is let's figure out if it's the right it before we build it right. And I just love that book, and I love that framing.
\n\nYou know, if you don't have a market for what you're building, or if they don't understand that they have the pain point you're solving for, it doesn't matter what you build. You got to do that first. And that's really what the focus of this incubator program is. It's that phase of work. Is there a there there? Is there something worth the hard, arduous path of building some software? Is there something there worth walking that path for before you start walking it?
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. I love that. Well, thank you both so much for coming on and sharing a little bit more about the program. I'm super excited to see what comes out of the first round, and then who gets selected for the second round. So I'm happy to help promote. Any other final takeaways for our listeners today?
\n\nDAWN: If this sounds intriguing to you, maybe you're at the stage where you're thinking about this process, I definitely encourage people to follow along. We're trying to share as much as we can about this process and this journey for us and our founders.
\n\nSo you can follow along on our blog, on LinkedIn. We're doing a LinkedIn live weekly with the founder in the program. We'll continue to do that with the next founders. And we're really trying to build a community and extend the community, you know, that thoughtbot has built with early-stage founders, so please join us. We'd love to have you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. That's amazing. Thank you both so much.
\n\nINTRO MUSIC:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Lauren Maffeo, Author of Designing Data Governance from the Ground Up. Lauren, thank you for joining us.
\n\nLAUREN: Thanks so much for having me, Victoria. I'm excited to be here.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. I'm excited to dive right into this topic. But first, maybe just tell me what led you to start writing this book?
\n\nLAUREN: I was first inspired to write this book by my clients, actually. I was working as a service designer at Steampunk, which is a human-centered design firm serving the federal government. I still do work for Steampunk. And a few years ago, I was working with a client who had a very large database containing millions of unique data points going back several centuries.
\n\nAnd I realized throughout the course of my discovery process, which is a big part of human-centered design work, that most of their processes for managing the data in this database were purely manual. There was no DevSecOps integrated into their workflows. These workflows often included several people and took up to a week to complete. And this was an organization that had many data points, as mentioned, in its purview.
\n\nThey also had a large team to manage the data in various ways. But they still really struggled with an overall lack of processes. And really, more importantly, they lacked quality standards for data, which they could then automate throughout their production processes. I realized that even when organizations exist to have data in their purview and to share it with their users, that doesn't necessarily mean that they actually have governance principles that they abide by.
\n\nAnd so that led me to really consider, more broadly, the bigger challenges that we see with technology like AI, machine learning, large language models. We know now that there is a big risk of bias within these technologies themselves due to the data. And when I dug deeper, first as a research analyst at Gartner and then as a service designer at Steampunk, I realized that the big challenge that makes this a reality is lack of governance.
\n\nIt's not having the quality standards for deciding how data is fit for use. It's not categorizing your data according to the top domains in your organization that produce data. It's lack of clear ownership regarding who owns which data sets and who is able to make decisions about data. It's not having things like a data destruction policy, which shows people how long you hold on to data for. So that knowledge and seeing firsthand how many organizations struggle with that lack of governance that's what inspired me to write the book itself.
\n\nAnd I wanted to write it from the lens of a service designer. I have my own bias towards that, given that I am a practicing service designer. But I do believe that data governance when approached through a design thinking lens, can yield stronger results than if it is that top-down IT approach that many organizations use today unsuccessfully.
\n\nVICTORIA: So let me play that back a little bit. So, in your experience, organizations that struggle to make the most out of their data have an issue with defining the authority and who has that authority to make decisions, and you refer to that as governance. So that when it comes down to it, if you're building things and you want to say, is this ethical? Is this right? Is this secure? Is it private enough? Someone needs to be responsible [laughs] for answering that. And I love that you're bringing this human-centered design approach into it.
\n\nLAUREN: Yeah, that's exactly right. And I would say that ownership is a big part of data governance. It is one of the most crucial parts. I have a chapter in my book on data stewards, what they are, the roles they play, and how to select them and get them on board with your data governance vision. The main thing I want to emphasize about data stewardship is that it is not just the technical members of your team. Data scientists, data architects, and engineers can all be exceptional data stewards, especially because they work with the data day in and day out.
\n\nThe challenge I see is that these people typically are not very close to the data, and so they don't have that context for what different data points mean. They might not know offhand what the definitions per data piece are. They might not know the format that the data originates in. That's information that people in non-technical roles tend to possess.
\n\nAnd so, data stewardship and governance is not about turning your sales director into a data engineer or having them build ETL pipelines. But it is about having the people who know that data best be in positions where they're able to make decisions about it, to define it, to decide which pieces of metadata are attached to each piece of data. And then those standards are what get automated throughout the DevSecOps process to make better life cycles that produce better-quality data faster, at speed with fewer resources.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, when we talk about authority, what we really mean is, like, who has enough context to make smart decisions?
\n\nLAUREN: Who has enough context and also enough expertise? I think a big mistake that we as an industry have made with data management is that we have given the responsibility for all data in an organization to one team, sometimes one person. So, typically, what we've done in the past is we've seen all data in an organization managed by IT. They, as a department, make top-down decisions about who has access to which data, what data definitions exist, where the data catalog lives, if it exists in an organization at all.
\n\nAnd that creates a lot of blockers for people if you always have to go through one team or person to get permission to use data. And then, on top of that, the IT team doesn't have the context that your subject matter experts do about the data in their respective divisions. And so it really is about expanding the idea of who owns data and who is in a position of authority to make decisions about it by collaborating across silos. This is very challenging work to do.
\n\nBut I would actually say that for smaller organizations, they might lack the resources in, time, and money, and people to do data governance at scale. But what they can do is start embedding data governance as a core principle into the fabric of their organizations. And ultimately, I think that will power them for success in a way that larger organizations were not able to because there is a lot of technical debt out there when it comes to bad data. And one way to avoid that in the future or to at least mitigate it is to establish data governance standards early on.
\n\nVICTORIA: Talk me through what your approach would be if you were working with an organization who wants to build-in this into the fabric of how they work. What would be your first steps in engaging with them and identifying where they have needs in part of that discovery process?
\n\nLAUREN: In human-centered design, the discovery process occurs very early in a project. This is where you are working hand in hand with your client to figure out what their core needs are and how you can help them solve those core needs. And this is important to do because it's not always obvious what those needs are.
\n\nYou might get a contract to work on something very specific, whether it's designing the user interface of a database or it's migrating a website. Those are technical challenges to solve. And those are typically the reason why you get contracted to work with your client. But you still have to do quite a bit of work to figure out what the real ask is there and what is causing the need for them to have hired you in the first place.
\n\nAnd so, the first thing I would do if I was walking a client through this is I would start by asking who the most technical senior lead in the organization is. And I would ask how they are managing data today. I think it's really important, to be honest about the state of data in your organization today.
\n\nThe work that we do designing data governance is very forward-thinking in a lot of ways, but you need a foundation to build upon. And I think people need to be honest about the state of that foundation in their organization. So the first thing I would do is find that most-senior data leader who is responsible for making decisions about data and owns the data strategy because that person is tasked with figuring out how to use data in a way that is going to benefit the business writ large. And so, data governance is a big part of what they are tasked to do.
\n\nAnd so, in the first instance, what I would do is I would host a workshop with the client where I would ask them to do a few things. They would start by answering two questions: What is my company's mission statement, and how do we use data to fulfill that mission statement? These are very baseline questions. And the first one is so obvious and simple that it might be a little bit off-putting because you're tempted to think, as a senior leader, I already know what my company does. Why do I need to answer it like this?
\n\nAnd you need to answer it like this because just like we often get contracts to work on particular technical problems, you'd be surprised by how many senior leaders cannot articulate their company's mission statements. They'll talk to you about their jobs, the tools they use to do their jobs, who they work with on a daily basis. But they still aren't ultimately answering the question of how their job, how the technology they use fulfills a bigger organizational need.
\n\nAnd so, without understanding what that organizational need is, you won't be able to articulate how data fulfills that mission. And if you're not able to explain how data fulfills your company's mission, I doubt you can explain which servers your data lives on, which file format it needs to be converted to, who owns which data sets, where they originate, what your DevSecOps processes are. So answering those two questions about the company mission and how data is used to fulfill that mission is the first step.
\n\nThe second thing I would do is ask this senior leader, let's say the chief data officer, to define the data domains within their organization. And when we talk about data domains, we are talking about the areas of the business that are the key areas of interest. This can also be the problem spaces that your organization addresses. It also can have a hand in how your organization is designed as is; in other words, who reports to whom?
\n\nDo you have sales and marketing within one part of the organization, or are they separate? Do you have customer success as its own wing of the organization separate from product? However your organization is architected, you can draw lines between those different teams, departments, and the domains that your organization works in.
\n\nAnd then, most importantly, you want to be looking at who leads each domain and has oversight over the data in that domain. This is a really important aspect of the work because, as mentioned, stewards play a really key role in upholding and executing data governance. You need data stewards across non-technical and technical roles. So defining not just what the data domains are but who leads each domain in a senior role is really important to mapping out who your data stewards will be and to architect your first data governance council.
\n\nAnd then, finally, the last thing I would have them do in the first instance is map out a business capability map showing not only what their data domains are but then the sub-domains underneath. So, for example, you have sales, and that can be a business capability. But then, within the sales data domain, you're going to have very different types of sales data. You're going to have quarterly sales, bi-annual sales, inbound leads versus outbound leads. You're going to have very different types of data within that sales data domain. And you want to build those out as much as you possibly can across all of your data domains.
\n\nIf you are a small organization, it's common to have about four to six data domains with subdomains underneath, each of those four to six. But it varies according to each startup and organization and how they are structured. Regardless of how your organization is structured, there's always value in doing those three things. So you start by identifying what your organization does and how data fulfills that goal. You define the core data domains in your organization, including who owns each domain.
\n\nAnd then, you take that information about data domains, and you create a capability map showing not just your core data domains but the subdomains underneath because you're going to use all of that information to architect a future data governance program based on what you currently have today.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think that's a great approach, and it makes a lot of sense. Is that kind of, like, the minimum that people should be doing for a data governance program? Like, what's the essentials to do, like, maybe even your due diligence, say, as a health tech startup company?
\n\nLAUREN: This is the bare minimum of what I think every organization should do. The specifics of that are different depending on industry, depending on company size, organizational structure. But I wrote this book to be a compass that any organization can use. There's a lot of nuance, especially when we get into the production environment an organization has. There's a lot of nuance there depending on tools, all of that.
\n\nAnd so I wanted to write a book that anybody could use regardless of industry size, team size, all of that information. I would say that those are the essential first steps. And I do think that is part of the discovery process is figuring out where you stand today, and no matter how ugly it might be. Because, like we've mentioned, there is more data produced on a daily basis than ever before. And you are not going into this data governance work with a clean slate. You already have work in your organization that you do to manage data. And you really need to know where there are gaps so that you can address those gaps.
\n\nAnd so, when we go into the production environment and thinking about what you need to do to be managing data for quality on a regular basis, there are a couple of key things. The first is that you need a plan for how you're going to govern data throughout each lifecycle. So you are very likely not using a piece of data once and never again. You are likely using it through several projects.
\n\nSo you always want to have a plan for governance in production that includes policies on data usage, data archiving, and data destruction. Because you want to make sure that you are fulfilling those principles, whatever they are, throughout each lifecycle because you are managing data as a product.
\n\nAnd that brings me to the next thing that I would encourage people working in data governance to consider, which is taking the data mesh principle of managing data as a product. And this is a fundamental mind shift from how big data has been managed in the past, where it was more of a service. There are many detriments to that, given the volume of data that exists today and given how much data environments have changed.
\n\nSo, when we think about data mesh, we're really thinking about four key principles. The first is that you want to manage your data according to specific domains. So you want to be creating a cloud environment that really accounts for the nuance of each data domain. That's why it's so important to define what those data domains are. You're going to not just document what those domains are. You're going to be managing and owning data in a domain-specific way.
\n\nThe second thing is managing data as a product. And so, rather than taking the data as a service approach, you have data stewards who manage their respective data as products within the cloud environment. And so then, for instance, rather than using data about customer interactions in a single business context, you can instead use that data in a range of ways across the organization, and other colleagues can use that data as well.
\n\nYou also want to have data available as a self-service infrastructure. This is really important in data mesh. Because it emphasizes keeping all data on a centralized platform that manages your storage, streaming, pipelines, and anything else, and this is crucial because it prevents data from leaving in disparate systems on various servers. And it also erases or eases the need to build integrations between those different systems and databases. And it also gives each data steward a way to manage their domain data from the same source.
\n\nAnd then the last principle for data mesh is ecosystem governance. And really, what we're talking about here is reinforcing the data framework and mission statement that you are using to guide all of your work. It's very common in tech for tech startups to operate according to a bigger vision and according to principles that really establish the rationale for why that startup deserves to exist in the world.
\n\nAnd likewise, you want to be doing all of your production work with data according to a bigger framework and mission that you've already shared. And you want to make sure that all of your data is formatted, standardized, and discoverable against equal standards that govern the quality of your data.
\n\nVICTORIA: That sounds like data is your biggest value as a company and your greatest source of liability [laughs] and in many ways. And, I'm curious, you mentioned just data as a product, if you can talk more about how that fits into how company owners and founders should be thinking about data and the company they're building.
\n\nLAUREN: So that's a very astute comment about data as a liability. That is absolutely true. And that is one of the reasons why governance is not just nice to have. It's really essential, especially in this day and age. The U.S. has been quite lax when it comes to data privacy and protection standards for U.S. citizens. But I do think that that will change over the next several years. I think U.S. citizens will get more data protections. And that means that organizations are going to have to be more astute about tracking their data and making sure that they are using it in appropriate ways.
\n\nSo, when we're talking to founders who want to consider how to govern data as a product, you're thinking about data stewards taking on the role of product managers and using data in ways that benefits not just them and their respective domains but also giving it context and making it available to the wider business in a way that it was not available before.
\n\nSo if you are architecting your data mesh environment in the cloud, what you might be able to do is create various domains that exist on their own little microservice environments. And so you have all of these different domains that exist in one environment, but then they all connect to this bigger data mesh catalog. And from the catalog, that is where your colleagues across the business can access the data in your domain.
\n\nNow, you don't want to necessarily give free rein for anybody in your organization to get any data at any time. You might want to establish guardrails for who is able to access which data and what those parameters are. And the data as a product mindset allows you to do that because it gives you, as the data steward/pseudo pm, the autonomy to define how and when your data is used, rather than giving that responsibility to a third-party colleague who does not have that context about the data in your domain.
\n\nVICTORIA: I like that about really giving the people who have the right context the ability to manage their product and their data within their product. That makes a lot of sense to me.
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\n\nVICTORIA: What is it like to really bring in this culture of design-thinking into an organization that's built a product around data?
\n\nLAUREN: It can be incredibly hard. I have found that folks really vary in their approach to this type of work. I think many people that I talk to have tried doing data governance to some degree in the past, and, for various reasons, it was not successful. So as a result, they're very hesitant to try again. I think also for many technical leaders, if they're in CIO, CDO, CTO roles, they are not used to design thinking or to doing human-centered design work.
\n\nThat's not the ethos that was part of the tech space for a very long time. It was all about the technology, building what you could, experimenting and tinkering, and then figuring out the user part later. And so this is a real fundamental mindset shift to insist on having a vision for how data benefits your business before you start investing money and people into building different data pipelines and resources.
\n\nIt's also a fundamental shift for everyone in an organization because we, in society writ large, are taught to believe that data is the responsibility of one person or one team. And we just can't afford to think like that anymore. There is too much data produced and ingested on a daily basis for it to fall to one person or one team.
\n\nAnd even if you do have a technical team who is most adept at managing the cloud environment, the data architecture, building the new models for things like fraud detection, that's all the purview of maybe one team that is more technical. But that does not mean that the rest of the organization doesn't have a part to play in defining the standards for data that govern everything about the technical environment.
\n\nAnd I think a big comparison we can make is to security. Many of us… most of us, even if we work in tech, are not cybersecurity experts. But we also know that employees are the number one cause of breaches at organizations. There's no malintent behind that, but people are most likely to expose company data and cause a breach from within the company itself. And so organizations know that they are responsible for creating not just secure technical environments but educating their employees and their workforce on how to be stewards of security.
\n\nAnd so, even at my company, we run constant tests to see who is going to be vulnerable to phishing? Who is going to click on malicious links? They run quarterly tests to assess how healthy we are from a cybersecurity perspective. And if you click on a phishing attempt and you fall for it, you are directed to a self-service education video that you have to complete, going over the aspects of this phishing test, what made it malicious.
\n\nAnd then you're taught to educate yourself on what to look for in the future. We really need to be doing something very similar with data. And it doesn't mean that you host a two-hour training and then never talk about data again. You really need to look at ways to weave data governance into the fabric of your organization so that it is not disruptive to anybody's day. It's a natural part of their day, and it is part of working at your organization. Part of your organizational goals include having people serve as data stewards. And you emphasize that stewardship is for everyone, not just the people in the technology side of the business.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And I think there's something to be said for having more people involved in the data process and how that will impact just the quality of your data and the inclusivity of what you're building to bring those perspectives together.
\n\nLAUREN: I agree. And that's the real goal. And I think this is, again, something that's actually easier for startups to do because startups are naturally more nimble. They find out what works, what doesn't work. They're willing to try things. They have to be willing to try things. Because, to use a really clichéd phrase, if they're not innovating, then they're going to get stale and go out of business.
\n\nBut the other benefit that I think startups have when they're doing this work is the small size. Yes, you don't have the budget or team size of a company like JP Morgan, that is enormous, or a big bank. But you still have an opportunity to really design a culture, an organizational culture that puts data first, regardless of role. And then you can architect the structure of every role according to that vision.
\n\nAnd I think that's a really exciting opportunity for companies, especially if they are selling data or already giving data as a product in some way. If they're selling, you know, data as a product services, this is a really great approach and a unique approach to solving data governance and making it everyone's opportunity to grow their own roles and work smarter.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And when it's really the core of your business, it makes sense to pay more attention to that area [laughs]. It's what makes it worthwhile. It's what makes potential investors know that you're a real company who takes things seriously. [laughs]
\n\nLAUREN: That's true. That's very true.
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm thinking, what questions...do you have any questions for me?
\n\nLAUREN: I'm curious to know, when you talk to thoughtbot clients, what are the main aspects of data that they struggle with? I hear a variety of reasons for data struggles when I talk to clients, when I talk to people on the tech side, either as engineers or architects. I'm curious to hear what the thoughtbot community struggles with the most when it comes to managing big data.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think, in my experience, in the last less than a year that I've been with thoughtbot, one challenge which is sort of related to data...but I think for many small companies or startups they don't really have an IT department per se. So, like, what you mentioned early on in the discovery process as, like, who is the most senior technical person on your team? And that person may have little to no experience managing an IT operations group.
\n\nI think it's really bringing consulting from the ground up for an organization on IT operations, data management, user and access management. Those types of policies might just be something they hadn't considered before because it's not in their background and experience. But maybe once they've gotten set up, I think the other interesting part that happens is sometimes there's just data that's just not being managed at all. And there are processes and bits and pieces of code in app that no one really knows what they are, who they're used for, [laughs] where the data goes. And then, you know, the connections between data.
\n\nSo everything that you're mentioning that could happen when you don't do data governance, where it can slow down deployment processes. It can mean that you're giving access to people who maybe shouldn't have access to production data. It can mean that you have vulnerabilities in your infrastructure. That means someone could have compromised your data already, and you just don't know about it. Just some of the issues that we see related to data across the spectrum of people in their lifecycle of their startups.
\n\nLAUREN: That makes total sense, I think, especially when you are in a startup. If you're going by the typical startup model, you have that business-minded founder, and then you likely have a more technical co-founder. But we, I think, make the assumption that if you are, quote, unquote, "technical," you, therefore, know how to do anything and everything about every system, every framework, every type of cloud environment. And we all know that that's just not the case.
\n\nAnd so it's easy to try to find the Chief Technology Officer or the Chief Information Officer if one exists and to think, oh, this is the right person for the job. And they might be the most qualified person given the context, but that still doesn't mean that they have experience doing this work. The reality is that very few people today have deep hands-on experience making decisions about data with the volume that we see today. And so it's a new frontier for many people.
\n\nAnd then, on top of that, like you said as well, it's really difficult to know where your data lives and to track it. And the amount of work that goes into answering those very basic questions is enormous. And that's why documentation is so important. That's why data lineage in your architecture is so important. It really gives you a snapshot of which data lives where, how it's used. And that is invaluable in terms of reducing technical debt.
\n\nVICTORIA: I agree. And I wonder if you have any tips for people facilitating conversations in their organization about data governance. What would you tell them to make it less scary and more fun, more appealing to work on?
\n\nLAUREN: I both love and hate the term data governance. Because it's a word that you say, and whether you are technical or not, many people tune out as soon as they hear it because it is, in a way, a scary word. It makes people think purely of compliance, of being told what they can't do. And that can be a real challenge for folks.
\n\nSo I would say that if you are tasked with making a data governance program across your organization, you have to invest in making it real for people. You have to sell them on stewardship by articulating what folks will gain from serving as stewards. I think that's really critical because we are going to be asking folks to join a cause that they're not going to understand why it affects them or why it benefits them at first. And so it's really your job to articulate not only the benefits to them of helping to set up this data stewardship work but also articulating how data governance will help them get better at their jobs.
\n\nI also think you have to create a culture where you are not only encouraging people to work across party lines, so to speak, to work across silos but to reward them for doing so. You are, especially in the early months, asking a lot of people who join your data stewardship initiatives and your data governance council you're asking them to build something from the ground up, and that's not easy work.
\n\nSo I think any opportunity you can come up with to reward stewards in the form of bonuses or in terms of giving them more leeway to do their jobs more of a title bump than they might have had otherwise. Giving them formal recognition for their contributions to data governance is really essential as well. Because then they see that they are rewarded for contributing to the thought leadership that helps the data governance move forward.
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm curious, what is your favorite way to be rewarded at work, Lauren?
\n\nLAUREN: So I am a words person. When we talk about love languages, one of them is words of affirmation. And I would say that is the best way to quote, unquote, "reward me." I save emails and screenshots of text messages and emails that have really meant a lot to me. If someone sends me a handwritten card that really strikes a chord, I will save that card for years. My refrigerator is filled with holiday cards and birthday cards, even from years past.
\n\nAnd so any way to recognize people for the job they're doing and to let someone know that they're seen, and their work is seen and valued really resonates with me. I think this is especially important in remote environments because I love working from home, and I am at home alone all day. And so, especially if you are the only person of your kind, of your role on your team, it's very easy to feel insular and to wonder if you're hitting the mark, if you're doing a good job. I think recognition, whether verbally or on Slack, of a job well done it really resonates with me. And that's a great way to feel rewarded.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And being fully remote with thoughtbot, I can feel that as well. We have a big culture of recognizing people. At least weekly, we do 15Five as a tool to kind of give people high-fives across the company.
\n\nLAUREN: Yep, Steampunk does...we use Lattice. And people can submit praise and recognition for their colleagues in Lattice. And it's hooked up to Slack. And so then, when someone submits positive feedback or a kudos to a colleague in Lattice, then everyone sees it in Slack. And I think that's a great way to boost morale and give people a little visibility that they might not have gotten otherwise, especially because we also do consulting work.
\n\nSo we are knee-deep in our projects on a daily basis, and we don't always see or know what our colleagues are working on. So little things like that go a long way towards making people feel recognized and valued as part of a bigger company. But I'm also curious, Victoria, what's your favorite way to get rewarded and recognized at work?
\n\nVICTORIA: I think I also like the verbal. I feel like I like giving high-fives more than I like receiving them. But sometimes also, like, working at thoughtbot, there are just so many amazing people who help me all throughout the day. I start writing them, and then I'm like, well, I have to also thank this person, and then this person. And then I just get overwhelmed. [laughs] So I'm trying to do more often so I don't have a backlog of them throughout the week and then get overwhelmed on Friday.
\n\nLAUREN: I think that's a great way to do it, and I think it's especially important when you're in a leadership role. Something that I'm realizing more and more as I progress in my career is that the more senior you are, the more your morale and attitude sets the tone for the rest of the team. And that's why I think if you are in a position to lead data governance, your approach to it is so crucial to success. Because you really have to get people on board with something that they might not understand at first, that they might resent it first.
\n\nThis is work that seems simple on the surface, but it's actually very difficult. The technology is easy. The people are what's hard. And you really have to come in, I think, emphasizing to your data stewards and your broader organization, not just what governance is, because, frankly, a lot of people don't care. But you really have to make it tangible for them. And you have to help them see that governance affects everyone, and everyone can have a hand in co-creating it through shared standards.
\n\nI think there's a lot to be learned from the open-source community in this regard. The open-source community, more than any other I can think of, is the model of self-governance. It does not mean that it's perfect. But it does mean that people from all roles, backgrounds have a shared mission to build something from nothing and to make it an initiative that other people will benefit from. And I think that attitude is really well-positioned for success with data governance.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And great points all around on how data governance can really impact an organization. Are there any final takeaways for our listeners?
\n\nLAUREN: The biggest takeaway I would say is to be thoughtful about how you roll out data governance in your organization. But don't be scared if your organization is small. Again, it's very common for people to think my business is too small to really implement governance. We don't have the budget for, you know, the AWS environment we might need. Or we don't have the right number of people to serve as stewards. We don't actually have many data domains yet because we're so new.
\n\nAnd I would say start with what you have. If you are a business in today's day and age, I guarantee that you have enough data in your possession to start building out a data governance program that is thoughtful and mission-oriented. And I would really encourage everyone to do that, regardless of how big your organization is.
\n\nAnd then the other takeaway I would say is, if you remember nothing else about data governance, I would say to remember that you automate your standards. Your standards for data quality, data destruction, data usage are not divorced from your technical team's production environments; it's the exact opposite. Your standards should govern your environment, and they should be a lighthouse when you are doing that work. And so you always want to try to integrate your standards into your production environment, into your ETL pipelines, into your DevSecOps. That is where the magic happens. Keeping them siloed won't work.
\n\nAnd so I'd love for people, if you really enjoyed this episode and the conversation resonated with you, too, get a copy of the book. It is my first book. And I was really excited to work with the Pragmatic Programmers on it. So if readers go to pragprog.com, they can get a copy of the book directly through the publisher. But the book is also available at Target, Barnes & Noble, Amazon, and local bookstores. So I am very grateful as a first-time author for any and all support. And I would really also love to hear from thoughtbot clients and podcast listeners what you thought of the book because version two is not out of the question.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, looking forward to it. Thank you again so much, Lauren, for joining us today.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Lauren Maffeo.
Sponsored By:
Jasper (William) Cartwright is a Freelance Producer, Podcaster, Actor, and Motion Capture & Performance Capture Performer.
\n\nChad talks to Jasper about his podcast Three Black Halflings, which is committed to discussing diversity and inclusion within fantasy, sci-fi, and nerdy culture from the perspective of three people of color, what it's like to be in the space, and why representation is super important.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: Hey there. It's your host Victoria. And I'm here today with Dawn Delatte and Jordyn Bonds from our Ignite team. We are thrilled to announce the summer 2023 session of our new incubator program. If you have a business idea that involves a web or mobile app, we encourage you to apply for our 8-week program.
\n\nWe'll help you validate the market opportunity, experiment with messaging and product ideas, and move forward with confidence towards an MVP.
\n\nLearn more and apply at tbot.io/incubator. Dawn and Jordyn, thank you for joining and sharing the news with me today.
\n\nJORDYN: Thanks for having us.
\n\nDAWN: Yeah, glad to be here.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, tell me a little bit more about the incubator program. This will be your second session, right?
\n\nJORDYN: Indeed. We are just now wrapping up the first session. We had a really great 8 weeks, and we're excited to do it again.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. And I think we're going to have the person from your program on a Giant Robots episode soon.
\n\nJORDYN: Wonderful.
\n\nVICTORIA: Maybe you can give us a little preview. What were some of your main takeaways from this first round?
\n\nJORDYN: You know, as ever with early-stage work, it's about identifying your best early adopter market and user persona, and then learning as much as you possibly can about them to inform a roadmap to a product.
\n\nVICTORIA: What made you decide to start this incubator program this year with thoughtbot?
\n\nDAWN: We had been doing work with early-stage products and founders, as well as some innovation leads or research and development leads in existing organizations. We had been applying a lot of these processes, like the customer discovery process, Product Design Sprint process to validate new product ideas. And we've been doing that for a really long time.
\n\nAnd we've also been noodling on this idea of exploring how we might offer value even sooner to clients that are maybe pre-software product idea. Like many of the initiatives at thoughtbot, it was a little bit experimental for us. We decided to sort of dig into better understanding that market, and seeing how the expertise that we had could be applied in the earlier stage.
\n\nIt's also been a great opportunity for our team to learn and grow. We had Jordyn join our team as Director of Product Strategy. Their experience with having worked at startups and being an early-stage startup founder has been so wonderful for our team to engage with and learn from. And we've been able to offer that value to clients as well.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. So it's for people who have identified a problem, and they think they can come up with a software solution. But they're not quite at the point of being ready to actually build something yet. Is that right?
\n\nDAWN: Yeah. We've always championed the idea of doing your due diligence around validating the right thing to build. And so that's been a part of the process at thoughtbot for a really long time. But it's always been sort of in the context of building your MVP. So this is going slightly earlier with that idea and saying, what's the next right step for this business?
\n\nIt's really about understanding if there is a market and product opportunity, and then moving into exploring what that opportunity looks like. And then validating that and doing that through user research, and talking to customers, and applying early product and business strategy thinking to the process.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. So that probably sets you up for really building the right thing, keeping your overall investment costs lower because you're not wasting time building the wrong thing. And setting you up for that due diligence when you go to investors to say, here's how well I vetted out my idea. Here's the rigor that I applied to building the MVP.
\n\nJORDYN: Exactly. It's not just about convincing external stakeholders, so that's a key part. You know, maybe it's investors, maybe it's new team members you're looking to hire after the program. It could be anyone. But it's also about convincing yourself. Really, walking down the path of pursuing a startup is not a small undertaking. And we just want to make sure folks are starting with their best foot forward.
\n\nYou know, like Dawn said, let's build the right thing. Let's figure out what that thing is, and then we can think about how to build it right. That's a little quote from a book I really enjoy, by the way. I cannot take credit for that. [laughs] There's this really great book about early-stage validation called The Right It by Alberto Savoia.
\n\nHe was an engineer at Google, started a couple of startups himself, failed in some ways, failed to validate a market opportunity before marching off into building something. And the pain of that caused him to write this book about how to quickly and cheaply validate some market opportunity, market assumptions you might have when you're first starting out. The way he frames that is let's figure out if it's the right it before we build it right. And I just love that book, and I love that framing.
\n\nYou know, if you don't have a market for what you're building, or if they don't understand that they have the pain point you're solving for, it doesn't matter what you build. You got to do that first. And that's really what the focus of this incubator program is. It's that phase of work. Is there a there there? Is there something worth the hard, arduous path of building some software? Is there something there worth walking that path for before you start walking it?
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. I love that. Well, thank you both so much for coming on and sharing a little bit more about the program. I'm super excited to see what comes out of the first round, and then who gets selected for the second round. So I'm happy to help promote. Any other final takeaways for our listeners today?
\n\nDAWN: If this sounds intriguing to you, maybe you're at the stage where you're thinking about this process, I definitely encourage people to follow along. We're trying to share as much as we can about this process and this journey for us and our founders.
\n\nSo you can follow along on our blog, on LinkedIn. We're doing a LinkedIn live weekly with the founder in the program. We'll continue to do that with the next founders. And we're really trying to build a community and extend the community, you know, that thoughtbot has built with early-stage founders, so please join us. We'd love to have you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. That's amazing. Thank you both so much.
\n\nINTRO MUSIC:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Jasper William-Cartwright, Game Master for hire, Actor, Creative Consultant, Podcaster, Co-Host of The Performance Capture Podcast, and Co-Host of one of my favorite podcasts, Three Black Halflings. Jasper, thank you so much for joining me.
\n\nJASPER: Hey, no, thank you so much for having me. And, man, with that intro, I almost feel...
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJASPER: I almost felt...I was like, oh, I feel cool. Those are some fun things. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: I almost started with a Heeello robots.
\n\nJASPER: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: But it doesn't really have the alliteration that hello Halflings does, so...
\n\nJASPER: Sure. I don't even know how the hello Halfling started. Like, I'm going to have to go back and listen to some of the earlier episodes again because I genuinely have no idea how it happened. And now it's gotten to a point where it's unyieldy. Every episode, I feel like I have to get a little bit further and a little bit higher. And I'm like, this can't be good for people's ears, so, [laughs] yeah.
\n\nCHAD: So I know what the show is, but in your own words, what is the Three Black Halflings Podcast?
\n\nJASPER: The Three Black Halflings Podcast is a show which is committed to talking about diversity and inclusion within fantasy and sci-fi, and sort of anything that nerdy culture touches, we try to cover it from the perspective of three people of color, what it's like to be in the space, and why representation is super important.
\n\nCHAD: I want to talk about the origin of the show and how you got started. But I was introducing someone to the show previously because I try to tell everybody I can about the show. [laughter] I've noticed in the beginning when you started, there was a lot of low-hanging fruit, like, we can dive into this stuff and educate people. And over time, you've introduced actual play where you're playing Dungeons & Dragons on the show. And I think it's changed a little bit, and it's still great.
\n\nBut I always also recommend people go back to the beginning. And I think a lot of the episodes are sort of timeless. They're not about the news of the day. They're diving into particular topics and discussing either the impact or the problems that they have or how to play them better.
\n\nJASPER: Yeah, definitely. I think you're absolutely right. It's been a weird thing where because we've become more popular and we're kind of more in tune with the TTRPG space; I think that typically what has happened for us is that we've spent less time really digging around for, you know, what's some stuff... all the things that we can explore. And we're a lot more kind of like, what's the beat of the moment? If that makes sense. And I think that's why we haven't done as many episodes like that.
\n\nAnd also, just because we...I just think that the audience is changing. And the way that people consume our content is changing. It tends to go in cycles for us where we'll do a batch of very topical episodes then we'll do more really nitty gritty kind of game design episodes. And so I think a lot of it does depend on the sort of moment, what's going on. There are still a bunch of episodes that we have planned. And obviously, we have the Halfling University series which is coming out currently, which is a more retrospective look back on poignant things throughout the history of nerd [inaudible 3:11] and nerd culture. So I like to think there's a good variety on there.
\n\nCHAD: Obviously the show, especially I think when it started, had a very heavy focus on Dungeons & Dragons, which I love. People who know me [laughs] know that I love Dungeons & Dragons.
\n\nJASPER: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: And I've been playing it for a long time. And as someone playing it since I was a teenager, I didn't realize until I got older and learned a lot more...and certainly, the show went a long way to sort of educating me about how not only the origins of some of the tropes of fantasy and Dungeons & Dragons but just in general how to have inclusive play.
\n\nWhen you're playing with a group of people, and to bring it back to a non-Dungeons & Dragons specific thing, this is true, I think, in any group of people. When you're surrounded by a group of people who look the same as you, are from the same area, have the same experiences, you don't realize what's missing from that table, and that's true in our companies, and it's true around a TTRPG table too.
\n\nJASPER: Yeah, I completely agree. And I think that's the same for a lot of us. I remember doing a big post after I'd been doing the show for about six months, and it was just like, I was very open when I started the show that a lot of what I wanted to talk about I wanted it to be a safe space for me to explore some of these things.
\n\nBecause I grew up in a very White middle-class area, and therefore I had a lot of the blind spots that I would see my friends of color call out my White friends for or whatever it may be. And so I was like, okay, it's time for me to educate myself. And I wanted to do it in a safe space, in a place where I could learn from great people. Obviously, we had other co-hosts of the show who are fantastic people, but we had things like sensitivity consultants and people like that come on.
\n\nI always like to shout out James Mendez Hodes, who, if you ever want to do a bit of a deep dive into fantasy...and you said, Chad, the historical basis for some of the stuff that we use, and he wrote some really incredible stuff. And so a lot of it was about me trying to educate myself as well and kind of put in that work. I thought there was a value there in doing it in an open forum in sort of saying, hey, I'm a person of color, and I'm also trying to figure this out, you know what I mean?
\n\nCHAD: Mm-hmm.
\n\nJASPER: Because I think that a lot of the time, the barrier for anyone who doesn't belong to a minority group is like, oh, man, I don't want to burden someone else with my own understanding of this thing, and I don't want to ask the wrong questions. Or maybe I don't even know where to begin in educating myself. And so there was something about the three of us and me particularly kind of being very open about the fact that we were learning about this too and that there might be things that...mistakes or things might slightly be out of place but that we have that openness and willingness to learn.
\n\nAnd I think that in today's internet culture where everyone is so kind of reaction-based, it just felt important to me that we had a space where we could sit in and talk about stuff and really be open with each other in a way that we knew we'd all be able to shake hands and be like, cool, that was a good session or whatever [laughs] it was today, and not be like, I hate you, you know what I mean? Because someone had made a mistake, or misspoke, or something like that.
\n\nAnd I think you're absolutely right. It's something I've started to do a bit more of recently, which is doing diversity and inclusion talks and coaching for companies because I think a lot of the lessons that I've learned through doing this show, especially around things like language and how you set up a work environment to suit people of color and more generally, minorities, it's a slightly continuous pursuit in the sense that you always have to be kind of open and learning.
\n\nAnd I think also it provides a...what I think is best about it is that it provides such richness to your work environment. We always say on Three Black Halflings that we want you to take these things and use them to enhance your game. Like you're saying, if you have the same people with the same experiences all the time and that's all you ever hear, then, of course, you're going to get a pretty one-sided experience. And then, if you expand that out to include people from halfway across the world who have a very different experience, they're going to see things differently.
\n\nAnd I can almost guarantee there'll be a problem that you and your team have been stuck on for like months, and someone from a different perspective will come in and be like, boom, there's the problem, or that's how we get around it because they have a different frame of reference to you. And so I always try to...it sounds really awful to say sell it, [laughs] you know, not trying to sell diversity and inclusion, but I always want to try and go further by saying it's not just about getting different faces in the door. It's about enriching the work that you do and allowing your team to do the best work that they can.
\n\nJust the quantity of difference between the kinds of things like games that I used to run, you know, to link it back to Dungeons & Dragons, versus the games that I run now, just having had this wealth of influence from other people and different experiences is incredible. And I think it holds true for every element of my work. So I work as a producer a lot in lots of creative fields as opposed to just podcasting. And it's improved tenfold just by having a diverse group of people that I draw from their experiences in my pursuits. So I think it makes a big difference.
\n\nCHAD: I think it's the idea that you wanted a safe space, and so you created a public podcast on the internet.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nJASPER: Yeah, I can see how that sounds now.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nCHAD: I assume that you've had to navigate being in public spaces talking about diversity, inclusion. I'm sure that that has been difficult at times.
\n\nJASPER: Yeah, for sure. I think just to clarify that as well, [laughs] because I am definitely aware of how it sounds, I've always been a very, like, I don't care attitude, you know what I mean?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah.
\n\nJASPER: In the sense that I felt like I needed what I was going to make, if that makes sense. What, I guess, I meant by a safe space is I wanted people to have the safe space of listening to it. I was getting the safe space as far as I was concerned because podcasts aren't a reactionary medium, which is lovely. So thank God your audience isn't sat here just saying everything that you said wrong and correcting you. People are probably shouting at me for stuff that I've said already on this episode. [chuckles]
\n\nSo it's definitely a fine line, like you said, to put something out on the internet. It's a very, very public thing to do. But it definitely just felt like, for me, creating somewhere where people could just disappear a little bit and encounter these things in a way where they're not going to be called out, or they're not going to be kind of threatened. There's no risk of cancellation or whatever if you say the wrong thing or whatever it is. It felt important.
\n\nAnd yeah, we've had to deal with...I will say this; it's kind of tricky to sum up the things that we've dealt with because I think a lot of stuff is still so systemic in the sense that just even down to the opportunities that you get and things like that where you kind of go like, huh, they started in this space like two months ago, and they have twice the followers we do. And they're getting loads of money for doing these streams. [laughs] And you're going to go, like, hold on, what's going on here?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, there are three people on this show. They have ten times the Patreons that we do.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nJASPER: Yeah, exactly.
\n\nCHAD: Why might that be?
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nJASPER: Yeah, exactly. Exactly that. And that's one side of it. And then, to be honest, the most it's happened...and this is quite a recent thing, which I don't even think we've really spoken about on the show was the reaction to the...so for anyone who doesn't know Dungeons & Dragons, there was a recent controversy where Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast threatened to repeal part of the license, which allowed creators to freely kind of use elements, not all of them, but some elements of the Dungeons & Dragons game and the Dungeons & Dragons IP for content basically.
\n\nAnd they wanted to repeal it, and they wanted to start bringing in more checks and balances in terms of what you could and couldn't do. And they wanted to start taking cuts of the profits and all this kind of thing. And anyway, the reaction was, as you can probably imagine, not great. Us content creators are ostensibly the lifeblood of this game, especially in terms of its online presence.
\n\nSo we ended up getting the opportunity to interview one of the executive producers at Wizards of the Coast, and we put it on our YouTube. And it's hilariously one of the most viewed pieces of content that the Three Black Halflings has, full stop. And the reaction is so strange because you have people that get super angry at this guy for being corporate, and this and that, and the other. And we were like, okay, that's fine. So that was the first wave of reaction.
\n\nThen it was like, he's a racist against White people. And we were like, whoa, okay. And then it turned into you're racist because you didn't call him out for being racist against White people. And then, eventually, I think it just found its way to the trolls who are now just being openly racist about it.
\n\nSo it's a very strange dynamic of seeing that play out in terms of it literally depending on the amount of people that listened to it, do you know what I mean? It didn't hit troll numbers yet, like; it needed to be more popular to hit troll numbers. So part of me does wonder if we just haven't quite got to peak troll numbers [laughter] with the main podcast. I'm sort of readying myself with a spear and a shield, so I'm like, okay, trolls are coming.
\n\nCHAD: It's like a double-edged sword. You want to be more popular but at the same time, hmm. Part of what I'm getting at is I think the work you do, even if you take sort of systemic racism out of it, the reaction to diversity and inclusion topics out of it, it's not easy to be an independent content creator, then you add that on to it. So how do you keep going? You've been doing it for three years now. What's your day-to-day like? How do you keep going at it?
\n\nJASPER: I mean, the rewards are just huge. I got to go to the Dungeons & Dragons premiere the other day. I went to a party in the Tower of London and had people coming up to me. Everyone knew who I was at the Tower of London at a party in the Tower of London. And when I say Tower of London, I want to clarify that it wasn't a function room attached to the Tower of London.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJASPER: We were in the Tower of London. I was having champagne, sipping it next to Henry VIII's armor.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] Amazing.
\n\nJASPER: It was absolutely wild and being there and people coming up to me and being like, "We love what Three Black Halflings does. We think it's a really important voice in the community. And you guys absolutely like..." you know, because I was sort of like, oh God, I can't believe we're here or whatever. And people would be like, "No, no, you absolutely deserve to be here. It's so important that you guys are here." So I think that has a huge impact.
\n\nPeople in the community, the way that we've been embraced there's so many shows and so many people who are creating content that are working so hard who don't have nearly the platform that we have. And I think that is, A, a testament to us and the hard work that we put in. But it's also a testament to just how important what we're doing within the community is.
\n\nAnd I still don't really think there is a facsimile for Three Black Halflings in the industry in the sense that we're a talk show. We talk about heavy topics a lot of the time, but we do it with a smile on our face. And we try to laugh as much as humanly possible, you know what I mean? Because the whole premise of this show was that Black joy can be a form of protest. So we wanted to be like, hey, we can talk about serious stuff without having to cry and feel crushingly horrible about it, you know. [laughs]
\n\nAnd I think I guess that's how I feel whenever I feel like I want to cry or feel crushingly horrible about my workload or how hard it is to make the show is that I go, this is kind of the point, you know what I mean? This is why we got into it because I think that this is going to make it easier for someone else to do the same thing or someone else do something even better, and that, for me, is incredibly rewarding.
\n\nBut I will caveat all of that by saying we've started to generate some money through ad revenue and Patreon, everything like that. And it's actually...this show has given me the opportunity to leave my full-time day job, which was still kind of creative. I was working in animation before this. And I loved that job, but now I get to be my own boss.
\n\nAnd it's been a really steep learning curve learning how to do work-life balance when you're your own boss because you're like, I could really disrespect my time here, you know what I mean? [laughter] I can get a lot done today. And I go, no, I have to spend time with my fiancée. I have to eat food. I have to sleep. I have to drink water. I think a lot of the process has been about that.
\n\nAnd I think, especially recently, I've gotten much better at kind of giving myself that work-life balance, and that makes it a lot easier for me to carry on. Because I feel like we've gotten to a point where I can be honest with the community as well and say, "Hey, we're having a late episode this week because there are some kinks with the edit," or something. [laughs] And people are just like, "Yeah, it's fine."
\n\nSo I was actually having a consultancy session for someone yesterday. And one of the big things I kept saying to them was, as a content creator, you have to realize the world is not going to crash and burn if you don't hold the standards that you've set for yourself. Because the chances are your audience has much, much lower expectations, and that's not because they don't think you can do it. It's just because they understand that you're human, and they want you to do well, you know what I mean?
\n\nSo if ever I feel like, oh no, Three Black Halflings has really messed up, I'm like, this episode sounds terrible. And we put it out and, ugh, and I'm there twisting myself into knots and making myself feel horrible. And then I go to the Discord, and everyone's like, "Oh, that sounded a bit janky. Oh, well, I'm sure they'll sort it out." [laughs] It's just like, it's absolutely fine.
\n\nSo taking pressure off of yourself, I think, is something that I think is really important if you're trying to pursue, especially if you're trying to start out in pursuit of something like this because, yeah, it's super easy to drown yourself [laughs] in all of the kind of stress and anxiety about putting content out.
\n\nCHAD: You mentioned ads, and you mentioned Patreon. I think it was...was it last year that you joined a podcast network?
\n\nJASPER: Ooh, it would have been a year before.
\n\nCHAD: A year.
\n\nJASPER: So I've been with Headgum, I think, for nearly two years now.
\n\nCHAD: Wow. What sort of prompted that, and what does being part of a network give you as a podcast?
\n\nJASPER: Hell yeah. Joining a network ostensibly is just like joining a kind of family of other shows. I guess the closest equivalent really is sort of having your show picked up by Netflix or a broadcaster or something like that. It's sort of like you're bringing your show to that family. And then the most common thing...every network is obviously slightly different and will have different kinds of support structures that they offer certain shows depending on the money they generate, all that kind of thing.
\n\nBut the most common one is effectively; you are now in a group that can all support each other and can all benefit each other by doing ad swaps because ad swaps typically is the absolute best way to improve podcast performance, mostly just because the user journey is super simple. It's like, hey, do you like the sound of this podcast? Well, the link to it is in your description. You have to click twice. You have to go into the description, click on that link, and then hit subscribe, and you're done. That's all you have to do, and it will be there. And you know it'll automatically tee up in your feed and all that kind of stuff.
\n\nSo things like pod swaps and everything like that are by far the most effective for spreading the word about your show. And it also just helps you really hit specific target audiences where you go; we have great metrics that we can see of like, the average age of our listeners, how they identify gender-wise, music they listen to typically, what the average Three Black Halflings listens to. I think when you roll all of that information together as a part of a network, you have a huge bank of data, which they can then use to kind of market you in the best way and push you out in the best way.
\n\nAnd then, on top of that, most networks will have some sort of ad revenue like sort of system or tech, I guess, is probably the best way of putting it. And certainly, for some networks, they almost run like tech companies, how I imagine tech companies run. You're probably about to tell me, "A lot better." [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Don't worry about it. [laughs].
\n\nJASPER: But, for instance, Headgum has Gumball. So Gumball is their ad sales sort of site, which has software which allows you to basically...everyone can go, and you can book ads just by looking at the podcast, seeing how many downloads it has; again, it has a breakdown of demographics and things like that that you can look at to see if that will marry up with whatever product you're pushing out. And then that will automatically set up a prompt for me to then read the script, upload it, and then that will put a dynamic ad in the middle of an episode, however many episodes until a certain amount of impressions are delivered.
\n\nSo, again, that will be very unique and different depending on which network you join. But ostensibly, I'd say those are the two main things is pooling of resources amongst a family of different podcasts and then some sort of promise of ad revenue or ad sales. Most of them also have an ad sales team where they'll go and hunt out more specific spots for your show.
\n\nSo, for instance, we just got sponsored by, I think it was Penguin or maybe Random House. Actually, maybe it's Random House who are publishing three little additional books to go in and around the Dungeons & Dragons movie. So we just did a little ad for them. And that was, again, the sales team kind of going out and being like, oh, we can see that you're looking for advertising places. Why don't you come and advertise on this Dungeons & Dragons podcast? [laughs] So yeah, stuff like that, I think.
\n\nThose were, I'd say, the main areas, and then it'll kind of depend...some podcast networks will help with editing. They'll have almost like a house style. So they'll sort of...they'll say, oh, we'll do the editing for you because we want to marry up all the shows so that they have a similar sound
\n\nCHAD: Is Headgum doing some editing for you and not on other episodes, or…?
\n\nJASPER: No. Headgum pretty much does...one of the best things [laughs] about it is we have an incredible sound designer; shout out to Daniel. He's actually one of the sound designers of God of War, if you can believe that.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJASPER: He's won several awards for sound design. He basically has almost like a little side hustle, which is him and a group of his friends who do podcast editing for Headgum. He does our main shows and our actual play shows. They were like, "Oh yeah, they can help you out with your actual play shows." And then me, as the incredibly stressed-out producer that was also having to listen to multiple hours of my own voice a week, went, "What about the main show as well?"
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJASPER: And they were like, "Yeah, fine." [laughter] I was like, "Thank you," [laughs] because I can't bear listening to myself. I don't mind editing, and I'm not bad at it. But listening to my own voice is not on my list of to-dos. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: It sounds like, overall, that being part of a network has been positive for you.
\n\nJASPER: Yeah, hugely.
\n\nCHAD: That's awesome.
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\n\nCHAD: Let's talk about...I'm making the assumption...I didn't dwell too much at the beginning of the episode that people understand what Dungeons & Dragons is, but maybe that's too big of an assumption. But it just seems so much more popular now [laughs] than it ever had before. So I feel like I can at least say Dungeons & Dragons to people, and people are like, even if I don't actually know what it's like to play, I know what it is, at least now. [laughs]
\n\nJASPER: Yeah, yeah, you got an idea of what it is. Yeah, for sure. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: But let's maybe, at this point, take a little bit of a step back. And Dungeons & Dragons is more popular than it has ever been before. I think that that's really exciting for creators like you because it must feel like there's more opportunity than ever.
\n\nJASPER: Yes, yeah, absolutely. And I think that...so this actually, I think really ties into something that I've been doing a little bit of research on, which is...I can't say too much at this point, but I'm putting together a convention. Part of the idea behind this convention was that I've noticed there's a really big trend towards experience-based entertainment. We love movies. We love going out to bowling, all that kind of stuff. But real full immersion-based experiences, I think, are...post-lockdown, everyone's like, yes, give me all of that. I've been cooped up in a house. I want to be whisked away as far away as possible.
\n\nAnd so I do think that is part of the reason why Dungeons & Dragons has started to become even organically more and more popular. Because I just think the idea that instead of, I don't know, just sitting around on a Friday with some friends talking, or just watching a movie, or whatever it may be, that you can kind of with your friends go off and take part in something that feels epic and larger than life and really allows you to abandon for just a couple of hours some of the strains and pressures on your life.
\n\nI think, again, post-lockdown, that just feels like such an appetizing thing [laughs] to be able to do. And I just think with then the general acceptance of nerdiness as mainstream culture; people are just a lot more willing to be like, well, if I'm going to watch a movie with a dude who has a suit made entirely of iron and says really corny lines and shoots laser beams out of his chest, I probably could be okay with pretending to be a goblin for half an hour.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJASPER: Whereas I think before, people would have been really like, no, no, no, we don't do that. I only watch, I don't know, Kubrick movies or something. Do you know what I mean?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah.
\n\nJASPER: Like, that's their form of entertainment.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that trend really resonates with me. Even before the pandemic, escape rooms and that kind of thing were becoming really popular.
\n\nJASPER: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: I mean, there are escape rooms everywhere now. [laughs]
\n\nJASPER: One of the things that I found out as I was coming up with the idea for this convention...I was talking to a buddy of mine, and he basically owns an event space, which has a cinema in it, and it also has a little theater. And he ran over; I think it was last summer, a "Guardians of the Galaxy" themed kind of experience where you walked around, and you got to meet some of the characters and stuff like that. And then next door in that building, they were showing the "Thor: Love and Thunder" movie.
\n\nAnd despite the fact that the experience was three times as expensive as the "Thor: Love and Thunder" movie at the cinema, that experience sold out almost instantly. And the "Thor: Love and Thunder" movie was struggling to get people on the seats; you know what I mean? But I was like, but "Thor: Love and Thunder" is a Guardians film, you know what I mean? All of them are there. It's ostensibly a "Guardians of the Galaxy" movie, and yet people are going to see a "Guardians of the Galaxy" experience, which I don't even know if it was like an official thing...rather than seeing the movie of it.
\n\nSo I just think, yeah, like you said, this trend for escape rooms and all that kind of stuff just really resonated with me that I was like, yeah, that's...like, if I had to choose, if I was in a privileged position and could afford to go to that thing, I'd be like, pssh, yeah, I'd probably go to the "Guardians of the Galaxy" experience rather than just, eh, I don't have to watch the film. I could probably get it on Disney Plus in like two weeks, so...[laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. Have you ever been to a secret cinema in London?
\n\nJASPER: Yes. I did "Top Gun: Maverick" Up here in Manchester.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] I went to the "Star Wars" one a few years ago.
\n\nJASPER: Nice. How was that?
\n\nCHAD: I guess, actually, it would have been five years ago. It was amazing. So for people who don't know, secret cinema is you're ostensibly going to see a movie, [laughs] but they build up an entire experience with improv actors themed to the movie that you're seeing, and you don't know where it is. It's technically a secret. They send you the location of it. You go there, and you're whisked away into the world of the movie.
\n\nJASPER: Yeah, I did a "28 Days Later" one. [laughter] Yeah, that was one...
\n\nCHAD: Horrifying.
\n\nJASPER: Yeah, that one was a little much, honestly. [laughs] I was like, I love this movie, but I don't feel safe sat in this cinema [laughs] because I've just walked through three fields filled with zombies and I ran for half of it. [laughs] So, I don't know, I was like, my heart was still racing as I sat down to watch the movie, which I think in many ways, did enhance the experience because I was sort of looking over my shoulder for half of it. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: And when people who haven't ever actually seen Dungeons & Dragons played before, I often describe it as we're just telling a story together. Or maybe if they're a little less intimidated by improv because some people are into it, it's like an improv show where you can basically do anything you want or say what you want to do. And then you roll the dice to see whether it actually happens or not. And that's really at the base level all it is.
\n\nJASPER: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: And I think you're right; people are more open to that idea of an experience or a game like that than they ever have been before.
\n\nJASPER: Yeah, for sure. There are so many things that you can kind of fall back on if you're not someone who is super comfortable with improvising or whatever. And I think that's what the game provides is it provides enough structure for you to then just kind of, honestly, because, you know, you do just kind of forget that you're doing it really after about 10 minutes of slight awkwardness when you start with a new group because the game provides you with almost like the fuel. You'll be like, oh, I don't know if I can do this or whatever. And it's like, okay, just go ahead and roll me a d20. And then you roll in that 20, and everyone loses their minds around the table.
\n\nCHAD: [chuckles]
\n\nJASPER: And suddenly you're like, okay, I'm in this. I'm the barbarian, and I'm getting angry. And I run in there, and I kick the door down, you know what I mean? And suddenly, you're sat there watching this person who was super nervous five seconds ago stood up on their feet screaming at me as the DM telling me how they eviscerate all these bad guys. So yeah, definitely, the game provides a very good structure for that.
\n\nCHAD: With this...you mentioned building this experience for a convention. Do you want to talk more about that?
\n\nJASPER: Yes, I can talk about it in very broad terms. I just can't go into the specifics of when, and the whos, and stuff like that. But ostensibly, the idea was to do a...I got really interested by this idea of reclaiming fantasy. It was kind of like this thing that kept going around in my head. And I was like; I wonder if there's a way that we could see our...again, specifically geared towards minority groups. It's what I know well and a community that I want to continue to serve.
\n\nAnd I was like; I wonder if we can create a space where it's specifically for them, explicitly for them in the sense that I think there are a lot of spaces that are explicitly for non-minority groups, you know what I mean? I think a lot of the traditional conventions typically are those things. But I think we get very afraid of creating something where we...people with the purse strings usually go, oh no, you can't exclude people, and I'm like, we're not excluding people. We're just making it very specifically for someone else.
\n\nAnd a lot of it was...it then came from the idea of seeing "The Rings of Power" trailer get released. And then the thing that's trending on Twitter is like; there were no black elves, not yes, we've got a black elf, you know what I mean? And I suddenly was like, I really want us to have a space where we can be celebrated in fantasy, et cetera, without having to have that caveated as like seeing it as some sort of diversity hire or whatever.
\n\nAnyway, this snowballed through going to things like D&D in a Castle and combining it with this idea of reclaiming fantasy of, like, what if we did it inside of like a stately home or a castle? What if we made this event and we really made it that you as a minority can be there and celebrated in the space where you've got, like, Baron, what's his name, on the wall?
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJASPER: And it's this White dude from 500 years ago, do you know what I mean? And it's like, I just really loved the idea of a room full of minorities really feeling welcomed and like they were a part of this space, and just realizing minorities we've been around forever, you know what I mean? [laughs] There's never been a point in human history where people with Brown skin haven't been here. We've always been here.
\n\nSo I guess it was just about really realizing that when we sat there watching, I don't know, Pirates of the Caribbean, and there's like two Black people in the swamp. It's like, no, no, no, no, we would have been everywhere, [laughs] do you know what I mean? We would have been everywhere. And we can be celebrated in these spaces too. These don't have to just be White spaces, and they don't just have to be for a very specific group that they have been traditionally for in the past. [laughs] And yeah, the reaction to this sort of pitch, if you will, was overwhelmingly positive.
\n\nCHAD: That's good.
\n\nJASPER: And it really took me by surprise, actually, because I was sort of thinking, yeah, I'm really sticking it to them with this pitch.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJASPER: And then everyone was like, "Yeah, we love it." And I was like, oh, right.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJASPER: Okay, yeah. [laughs] I was sort of doing that, and I had to climb down a little bit and be like, okay, awesome. Let's talk about it. What I think is really exciting about that it's just that I really think that conventions and everything can do more in terms of delivering experience. Like myself and my fiancée went to Comic-Con a couple of years ago. And I remember her feeling like, oh, it was just a little bit flat. And it was just sort of...I thought that there'd be more kind of grandeur to it, almost like there'd be more...it was just other than people cosplaying; there wasn't a lot of theater to the whole thing.
\n\nIt was just like in these massive warehouses, and add a little bit of that theater in, have some of those actors, have some of the music and the sound and everything, really give people a place to go and explore and enjoy exploring. And I kind of keep thinking in my head it's like LARP lite, you know what I mean?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah.
\n\nJASPER: It's like LARP still with the kind of commercial interaction that you can still go and meet your favorite people. You can still get signings. You can still get previews of things. You can still buy things that you've been wanting to buy all year and that you can only get when you go to a certain convention, and all of the kind of normal convention tropes but really just explicitly labeling it on the bottle: this is for minority groups. Because I honestly think if we explicitly label it like that as well, we'll start to get away from a lot of the things that have plagued conventions for far too long when it comes to making people feel comfortable in those spaces.
\n\nAnd quite often, my biggest tip when it comes to diversity and inclusion with companies as well it's just like, put it on the bowl. Like, if you really believe it, have it front and center. Don't tuck it away in like a D&I bit on your website. Have it there so that everyone can see it. Everyone knows when they come to work with you; this is what you stand for. This is what you believe in, things like that, so...
\n\nCHAD: That sounds awesome. And it's a really good illustration of the idea which we've talked about on the show in previous episodes is that when you are used to being in the majority all the time, and that is the default, when something is being done that's different than that, it feels like you're losing something. It feels like you're under attack. That's a total natural feeling.
\n\nJASPER: Yes, yes.
\n\nCHAD: So it's like, that sounds like a great experience. I would love to experience that, and I'm being excluded because I'm White; that's not fair. But that's coming from a position of you've been in those safe spaces for yourself in a world that's been entirely tailored for you. So you haven't realized that you've had that all along.
\n\nJASPER: Yeah, absolutely. And the beauty of it is..., and this is where it's even better for people in the majority, which is that we have zero intention of making an unsafe space for anyone because that would be wild. So even the spaces that we create for minorities explicitly will still be safe for you as well, you know what I mean?
\n\nBut I think, like you said, it's that reaction, which, again, I get it completely because, as I mentioned earlier, I was there. I've been there. I've been in a space where I suddenly go, oh, I'm part of the problem, and it feels horrible. Like, it's not nice, and it's a really challenging thing, which you have to be comfortable with, and I think everyone should be comfortable with it.
\n\nWhether you're a minority or not, everyone has blind spots. Everyone has biases. It's a huge part of human interaction. And honestly, in a modern world with the way that social media is, I don't think you can live without biases and without assumptions because you see new people, thousands of new people every day if you want to just by scrolling on your Twitter feed. So to be in this zen place of just like, I will accept everyone only on their merits, and I will not judge anyone would be impossible and maddening, I think.
\n\nSo it's a perfectly normal thing to exist with those biases. The thing that we have to get better at is going, cool; I've got those biases. Now it's time to let them slide, like, to move them over there and to not get defensive if someone calls them out. Like, that's the trick. That's the magic trick. That's pulling the rabbit out of the hat. That's what you got to get comfortable with.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, awesome. Well, I really appreciate the conversation, and I really appreciate you taking the time. I know that you get married in less than a week from now.
\n\nJASPER: I do. I do get married --
\n\nCHAD: So congratulations in advance.
\n\nJASPER: Thank you so much. Thank you.
\n\nCHAD: If we could just take a few more minutes at the end to maybe nerd out about the Dungeons & Dragons movie, which I know you went to the premiere for, and I just saw this weekend...
\n\nJASPER: Oh please, let's do. Absolutely.
\n\nCHAD: It was funny because I think you've said exactly how I left the movie feeling, which was they captured the spirit of what it's actually...like, it was just fun. And Dungeons & Dragons is fun in a way that is not like "Lord of the Rings" [laughs] or just super serious fantasy, right?
\n\nJASPER: Yeah, yeah. I can't even think of the last time we had a fantasy movie that was like, you know, other than, I don't know, "Your Highness" or something that was just like, I don't know, yeah, whatever that was, you know what I mean? Something that was like an actual movie and didn't take itself too seriously, yeah.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I'm so happy because you could have easily have seen it, like, no, we need to do something super serious and to compete against "Game of Thrones" and "Lord of the Rings" and all that stuff. And to feel like, you know, this was made by people who get it and represented what I love was really exciting.
\n\nJASPER: Yeah. And I think that what it did for me is I think it lays the groundwork for them to explore more serious places because now they will have that trust that they understand what it's like to be at the table and how to do that. And then I think this is where the real skill is going to come in for them to curate more of these which is like...that, I think, is the art of a really good DM. They can have you absolutely roaring with laughter one minute and then sobbing in like, you know, and it's like an hour's difference, [laughs] you know what I mean? Between the two places. And that's then the next step for these.
\n\nBut I think this was absolutely the tone they needed to strike for this, especially for this first kind of outing. I think they really needed to say, hey, we get it. We understand what it's like, just displaying purely unhinged actions and things, which I think that's the bit that feels D&D for me is when a character...and I think I won't go into any spoilers, but I think you'll probably know the moment I'm describing when a very clear solution is laid out in front of you in big, green letters, for instance, and you choose to do something truly, truly unhinged and wild. Because that was what you decided you were going to do ahead of time.
\n\nIt's such a D&D thing to do. [laughs] And I loved that. It was one of my favorite moments in the movie. And I just thought that perfectly encapsulates the nature of it and the thing that you don't get to see in "Game of Thrones" or whatever because you don't get the Nat 1s or the Nat 20s, I think in the "Game of Thrones." Everything's like 7 to 12; you know what I mean?
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] Right. Right.
\n\nJASPER: Everyone is relatively skilled, so they can't just, like, you know what I mean? You can't have the mountain versus the Viper, and the mountain just trips over a rock and brains himself on the floor.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] Right.
\n\nJASPER: You know what I mean? Because that would be a Nat 1, but that would be ridiculous because the mountain is an incredibly skilled fighter, and therefore, it wouldn't work like that.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, yeah. I found myself grinning throughout, aside from the moments where I was laughing, just like, oh, that's...yes.
\n\nJASPER: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Just the whole thing about planning and how he's a planner.
\n\nJASPER: Yes. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Oh, that is so D&D. And just at the end, the way that that battle lays out, I just feel like it just captures everyone's act in the six-second increments in a D&D battle. And everything's happening all at once, and that's what that battle was like at the end.
\n\nJASPER: Yeah. And it also just props for like a really good magic fight.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] Right.
\n\nJASPER: Like, I don't even know what the word is, but we have been convinced for years that Harry Potter had good magic, but no, he doesn't.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJASPER: Harry Potter has wand-fu, and it's terrible. It's like; it's not particularly pleasing. It's basically the same as "Star Wars." It's just like a little laser pistol type, piu-piu-piu.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJASPER: That's effectively what Harry Potter becomes. And then to see Bigby's Hand and spells like this be used in the ways, like, it was just so fun. And also, it really teaches the importance of flavoring your attacks and how much life you can bring to a game, to anything, by just adding that little bit more, like, that little bit of extra sauce on top.
\n\nI think Holger the Barbarian does a perfect job of this in the movie where she's always using improvised weapons, and the way that she fights it's, oh, it's very, very pleasing to watch. And you're sat there going, yeah man, barbarians are so cool. But half the time when you're in a game, you'll just be like, yeah, I run up, and I attack with my axe. It's like, no, give me more, give me more. Tell me how and why and stuff like that. So I agree; I think they did a great job. And I was also just grinning from ear to ear [laughs] during most of it.
\n\nCHAD: I feel like I could talk to you all day.
\n\nJASPER: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: But I really appreciate it. If folks want to either get in touch with you, we mentioned at the top of the show you are a Game Master for hire, and you do games remotely, right?
\n\nJASPER: Yes, I do. I do. I do.
\n\nCHAD: So where are all the places that people can find you, get in touch with you, book you, all that stuff?
\n\nJASPER: Heck yeah. If anyone knows about my GMing for hire, it's you. [laughter] You had me DM for you for, in total, like, 29 hours in the space of a week. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. So we brought Jasper and we had the thoughtbot summit where we got the company together in person and so Jasper came and he DMed two sessions with two different groups for us, which was awesome. And then I went to D&D in a Castle, which you mentioned earlier in the show. It's where you go to a castle in the UK and play D&D for three and a half days straight basically. It was an amazing experience and Jasper was an incredible DM.
\n\nJASPER: Thank you. And if anyone is interested in hiring me as a DM, like I said, I do consultancy, whether it be D&I consultancy or podcast to help you grow podcasts and things like that, or even just get started. Most of that information is on my website which is jasperwcartwright.com. You can find me on all social medias. I'm usually pretty good at responding to people in there, and that is just @JW_Cartwright on all of my social media. So yeah, go follow me, and I've got a bunch of really exciting stuff coming up, so it's a good time to follow me. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Awesome.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode along with a complete transcript at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Mastodon @cpytel@thoughtbot.social.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks so much for listening and see you next time.
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Special Guest: Jasper (William) Cartwright.
Sponsored By:
Noelle Acosta is Founder and CEO of Noula Health, a data-driven platform that uses personalized hormonal health data to deliver tailored care.
\n\nVictoria talks to Noelle about helping patients with uteruses to better understand their bodies by providing them with hormonal health data that's unique to them and providing them with individualized care they deserve at their fingertips through a virtual app.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Noelle Acosta, Founder and CEO of Noula Health, a data-driven platform that uses personalized hormonal health data to deliver tailored care. Noelle, thank you for joining me.
\n\nNOELLE: Thank you so much for having me, Victoria. It's a pleasure to be here.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. I'm excited to learn more about your product today that you're building. Can you just tell me a little bit more about it?
\n\nNOELLE: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I feel like, [chuckles] one, you could work here. You did a phenomenal job of sharing what Noula is. But here at Noula, we are a virtual care platform that really empowers women and patients with uteruses to better understand their bodies by providing them with hormonal health data that's unique to them. Based on that information, we're able to provide them with the individualized, tailored care that they deserve at their fingertips through a virtual app.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. And I'm wondering what led you to think I need to make this company. What happened in your life where you decided this needs to exist in the world?
\n\nNOELLE: Really it stems from my own personal brush with an undiagnosed chronic condition where I truly was the one in five women who felt dismissed, denied, and ignored in the traditional healthcare settings. And that is really something that's actually unified us all as a team here at Noula. We have the shared frustration in terms of the gaps that we experienced overall; not one, two of our health journeys looked alike.
\n\nAnd so during this time, I found myself really just kind of banging my head against a wall where I had these ongoing symptoms that disrupted every aspect of my life, not just my physical health, but it became really very much an emotional roller coaster as well. Because despite having access to care and wonderful employer-sponsored health insurance, I was finding that my doctors were essentially brushing me off, attributing it to stress.
\n\nAnd it really led to me kind of just having this inner monologue and questioning myself as, like, is this in my head? Maybe it is stress-related. This doesn't feel normal. Should this be normal? And so I, just like 70% of millennials, turned to Google as my medical companion. I lost trust in healthcare settings and just turned to do research around what could be possibly causing the symptoms in my overall health. And I just refused to believe that this was my sense of normalcy.
\n\nAnd through my own research, I started finding things like my ethnicity and my environment could have an impact in the symptoms that I was experiencing. I was dealing with chronic pelvic pain, irregular periods to the point where I was actually menstruating for seven months straight. I had horrible migraines. And so I just really turned to these medical journals to try to figure out and uncover what my body was telling me.
\n\nAnd so, based on that research, I finally went back to the doctor demanding an ultrasound, where they ended up finding over 40 abnormal follicles and cysts on my ovaries. And even at that point, my treatment plan was a Band-Aid fix. And so, ultimately, I really felt like the system fundamentally failed me. This Band-Aid fix was essentially, hey, we'll put back your former birth control method and call us when you're ready to have a baby, and we'll figure it out then. And so, to this day, I actually haven't received any additional care, guidance from any clinician despite being in and out of the doctor's office with the symptoms.
\n\nAnd so I ended up being diagnosed with a condition called PCOS. Again, from my own research, I learned that Mexican women with PCOS, so yours truly, we have the most severe phenotype that puts us at the highest risk for other complications that are beyond just reproductive health. It increases my risk for diabetes. It increases my risk for hypertension. And these are ultimately very costly to my health. And I was just frustrated. I thought, why am I learning about this through my own research versus the doctor's office, where it really felt like a one size fits all approach to care?
\n\nAnd so, based on my experience, I started talking to more and more women. And I found that I wasn't alone with this shared frustration. We see that 80% of people who menstruate suffer from hormonal imbalances. And more often than not, women are juggling with more than two chronic conditions at a time. And so it's truly something that I felt as a patient that we were missing to feel empowered in our health and actually feel seen and heard. And then, when I actually spoke to clinicians as well, they felt that they weren't set up to care for their patients in the way that they wanted to care for them.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm wondering how those women and the people you talked to started to inform the roadmap for the product that you were going to build.
\n\nNOELLE: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, truly, the voice of those members, and these patients are the center of our lighthouse in terms of how we shape our product roadmap ahead. And so, ultimately, it really came down to us initially doing customer discovery. So I was really surprised to see how many people were willing to talk about their experiences navigating their health as a woman or a person with a uterus. And that was really telling in itself because I've heard from folks where they had to pay others with gift cards to have this conversation about how they might navigate certain workflows as it might relate to the products they're building. But naturally, these folks wanted to talk about their experiences.
\n\nSo we kind of tackled this in a couple of parts, one, I was going out into my own network, reaching out to friends of friends, posting in Nextdoor Facebook groups, really asking for 15 minutes of people's times to learn about their experience. And within two weeks, I had almost 100 customer discovery calls booked where these women were wanting to talk about their frustration and what they wished they had in terms of the care that they wanted.
\n\nAnd so that was point A, like, okay, I think we're onto something. Our gaps in our experiences are shared across the board. And this is the pain that not only I experienced, or the Noula team has experienced, but that hundreds of women have experienced. The other piece, too, is, believe it or not, you know, we're constantly doing customer discovery as an early-stage company. But when we launched our beta, we launched with an initial hypothesis. But we saw that what our members were coming in for more aligns with their hormone health than what we initially thought, where we thought majority of folks would be coming to us at a family building stage.
\n\nAnd then even [laughs] truly through social media, our TikTok channel alone when we lead with these persona stories it helps drive this just natural virality to it. And daily, we have folks reaching out to us asking if what they're experiencing is normal or what they should do. And so they're coming to us because we really fill this very prevalent gap in care today.
\n\nVICTORIA: It must be really reassuring on a personal level and also on a business level that you found a problem that you can really help and make a difference with.
\n\nNOELLE: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's frustrating that we are all bonded and unified by this experience. But ultimately, we'll continue to use the voice of our members as our guiding light to shape our roadmap ahead. And actually, that's what you see today with Noula. We took the learnings from the beta. We took the conversations that we've had with so many members and just women and folks outside of Noula to really shape what you see today.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's wonderful. And you already mentioned one surprise that you found in your customer discovery process. I wonder if you could even tell me a little bit more about any hypothesis you had that you found from research; the outcome was quite different, and that changed your business strategy.
\n\nNOELLE: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So we have always seen ourselves as truly being this co-piloted partner for women in their healthcare journeys for life. But when initially launching our beta, we thought our niche today is going to be folks navigating family planning, so people who are looking to start a family in the near future, actively trying to conceive, pregnant, or recently postpartum. So we built a beta around that. And it was very low-code. This is before I had any technical talent [chuckles] on our team and essentially no money.
\n\nAnd so, we built this low-code/no-code beta and launched it. We brought on about 100 folks to this closed beta. And with that, we built the product with that hypothesis in mind that we're going to be targeting specific stages. But what ultimately happened is as we were onboarding the 100 users, we found over...with each onboarded user, we started to see the scale tip where all of a sudden, 80% of those users very much had a story that mirrored my own experience with health.
\n\nThey were coming to us because they suspected that they had a hormonal imbalance or these unexplained symptoms that they didn't know what was causing them. Several of them had been diagnosed with conditions like PCOS, endometriosis, or fibroids. Many of them were dealing with unexplained period pain and irregular menstruation. And so we started to scratch our heads to be like, oh, wow. Okay, so these folks are actually coming to us for a different reason than we had [chuckles] initially anticipated.
\n\nThey're using the product differently. And also, they are far more engaged than our initial hypothesized users, which were pregnant people. And so while we have been able to really create a product that is able to adapt with these users over time, we found that that messaging and creation of a safe space for those users was incredibly important, and we wanted to lean into that.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really cool. And maybe talk more about creating that safe space in dealing with healthcare data. Were there any special considerations you had to bring into building your tech stack with those really delicate elements?
\n\nNOELLE: Yeah, yeah. I mean, ultimately, safety and security of their data and honoring that privacy. We will never sell any data whatsoever. And I know that was a concern for many and still is since we've seen in the news this has been happening with other apps and stuff where they're selling user health data to social media sites. So honoring and protecting that privacy, first and foremost. The other piece is we had to also empower our care team to support our members in the best way that they can with the information that they had about their unique health.
\n\nAnd so, unfortunately, our members were coming to us at such an emotionally turmoil time in their lives that they wanted answers. They were frustrated. They were saying, "Why is this happening to me?" We had to really ensure that we could be that empathetic ally for them, empower them with information, and really arm them with tools to use inside and outside of the clinic to get the answers that they deserve.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right, and I see that. So on your site, there's a quiz you can take about your symptoms, and then you can sign up for what's ultimately going to be a home test kit. Is that right?
\n\nNOELLE: Yes, yes. So users are able to sign up for Noula at no cost to you. So you can start free tracking your symptoms, and these symptom trackers are going to be customized to you. So based on... similar to the quiz that you mentioned, you'll be able to answer questions about what you're experiencing, what your goals are. And Noula will make recommendations of what to track within the app itself. You can then track your symptoms that you select over time and get this customized snapshot to build this true picture of your health.
\n\nYou can then continue to add on to that snapshot of your health through that home hormone test. So you don't necessarily need to purchase the test if you don't want to. But you have the ability to test your hormones to get a clearer picture of your baseline hormonal health. And we're able to really help arm you with that information about your body.
\n\nAnd then, from there, beyond just that information from that data set, you have access to empathetic coaching from medical experts. All of our care coaches are registered nurses. So you do have that expert at your fingertips who's there to really steer and guide you every step of the way. And that was something that I actually felt was missing from my own experience when navigating my own symptoms pre-Noula.
\n\nI found myself running these tests [chuckles] on my own, like ordering tests online trying to figure out what was going on. And just kind of hit this wall where I said to myself, I don't know how to interpret these. I don't know what to do with these. I don't know how to talk to my doctor about this. What do I do?
\n\nVICTORIA: That's so interesting. And I heard you mentioned empathy a few times and how important that is. Would you say that's one of your core values that you bring into founding a company like this?
\n\nNOELLE: Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So I actually studied to become a doula. And so some of the pillars that we were trained in were really supporting our clients in these four primary pillars: ensuring that we can support them with physical support, emotional support, informational support, and advocacy. So really, those four pillars together have really steered us to create this foundation of empathetic care. And so that is truly integral to our brand and who we are, how we deliver that care, and also in such an inclusive and culturally competent way.
\n\nVICTORIA: It sounds really important what you mentioned; building an app requires a lot of trust to be able to give you your data and trust that the results that you're getting are helpful. So I really love that that's a part of your core value that you bring to the organization too.
\n\nNOELLE: Yeah, I think it was something that was really important to us from the very beginning, especially because we are a BIPOC and queer-co-founded company. It's rare that we see ourselves in the ecosystem, not just as founders [chuckles] but even just in how care is designed for us. So we wanted to ensure that we were creating this space where everyone can see themselves. And it's been so reassuring to hear from members and even just folks who find Noula on their own that they finally feel like they're seen and heard as an individual with Noula.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, that might be the answer to my next question, which is what keeps you going, and what's the wind in your sails that keeps you pressing forward with this?
\n\nNOELLE: [chuckles] It's definitely that I think being able to hear from our members how Noula has helped change their life, even it is just a little bit where they feel more confident, where they feel supported, and they don't feel alone means everything to us. And the other piece is I feel incredibly proud when members have actually tuned in to listen to their bodies. And despite their experience feeling brushed off in the traditional healthcare setting, they really listen to themselves and turn to Noula.
\nAnd there have been cases where we help support these folks to the point where because of Noula (One member is actually popping up in my head specifically.), they were able to find that they had a hereditary thyroid condition before it worsened because of Noula. And so that in itself was so powerful because their experience in the clinic was very much more like, well, no wonder you're fatigued and no wonder you have brain fog. You have a baby; what do you expect?
VICTORIA: Oh, I love that; what a powerful message. And I think that speaks to the power of having systems in place that are designed with those people in mind.
\n\nNOELLE: 100% yes.
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\n\nVICTORIA: So what does success look like in the immediate future and in the longer term for Noula?
\n\nNOELLE: I think today, our success is very much qualitative. I think with health, especially digital health, it's a long game. And so today, we're measuring success by those member stories, by hearing from them that, again, this is a place where they finally feel empowered in their health. They have the tools that they need to unlock the best version of themselves so that they can get the care that they envision on their terms. So really, just through that qualitative piece.
\n\nPatient satisfaction is another huge factor as well. We supercharge our algorithm based on the identified and pooled hormonal health data so that we can continue providing tailored recommendations that are personalized to each user. So in my example, my Noula experience might say, okay, we know that Noelle is a Latina woman who has PCOS. Other people who might have had similar symptoms to her have found these recommendations or tracking these symptoms to be really helpful for them, and so that's something that I would try. And so really just, again, creating a space where you're not alone is huge. And so that's where we really lean into the qualitative piece.
\n\nAnd as we grow, we also incorporate the quantitative success metrics as well. So how are we measuring impact in terms of health outcomes so that we can also just inform the system to deliver better care? Because, I mean, there's just so much unknown about the female body specifically. It wasn't until 1993 that women were even required to be a part of a clinical study. So there's just a lot of gray area that needs to be addressed to deliver better health outcomes overall, especially when health outcomes amongst women in the U.S. is so poor.
\n\nVICTORIA: And as a woman in the U.S. who has hormones, I 100% get the value and the potential for an app like this. Have you had that same positive reaction from investors or from other people who are looking to join your group?
\n\nNOELLE: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, the investors who really understand it and get it, unfortunately, do because either they or someone they loved has been impacted by a hormonal imbalance or by being dismissed in the traditional healthcare settings. So similar to how the Noula team and our members have been unified by these experiences, we find that outside as well with investors.
\n\nWhat makes me really proud, too, is connecting with clinicians. Like, our Medical Director, Dr. Marieme Mbaye, who is a highly rated physician in New York City, turned away from practicing medicine to join Noula because she even felt like her hands were tied behind her back with the type of care she can deliver. And so it's always incredibly reassuring when we hear from clinicians that this is why care should be designed to really proactively look out for groups of people who are often overlooked, which, sadly, tend to be women and people of color.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right, almost like it was designed that way in the system.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nNOELLE: Yep.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. I'm glad that other people are seeing that benefit. And what hurdles do you see on the road ahead for where you're going with Noula?
\n\nNOELLE: As we are bringing on members, the more that we've built this trust with our member base, the more they want from us [laughs] in terms of us truly just being their end-to-end care delivery partner, and we would love to get there. But as a very early-stage company, we have to build things quickly but one thing at a time. So oftentimes, I feel like, okay, we have this huge leap to make to deliver the care that our members are asking for, and so it's a blessing and a curse where they're like, "We love this so much. Can you be my doctor? I don't want to go to another doctor." Or, "Can I get this through you and only you, or do I need to go somewhere else?"
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, that must be a great feeling to have. But also staying focused, like you mentioned, would be a challenge, and being able to get done within your capabilities. But it's funny because I think there's a huge demand in this market [laughs] that we've had similar kind of demand for other women's health-focused products or people with uteruses too. Clearly, something is broken. [laughs] So you've got a lot of great work you want to get done. Is there anything really already planned in your roadmap that you're super excited about?
\n\nNOELLE: Yeah. And we'll be rolling out insurance-covered telehealth appointments very soon, so that's one thing that I'm particularly just incredibly excited about because I think it does...how we got to delivering that was through the feedback from our members. And so I think that, in turn, will allow us to take one step closer to truly being that healthcare delivery partner for all members on all those levels. Very, very excited about that because it very much aligns with our mission to deliver accessible and equitable care.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that's a huge capability, and especially considering in some areas, there just might not be access to doctors or hospitals that you can go to in person, so...
\n\nNOELLE: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, only 50% of U.S. counties have access to OBGYNs and with the average appointment length only being 15 minutes. Like, again, physicians have their hands tied behind their backs because that means per OBGYN, they're managing about 3,500 patients, which just isn't feasible or scalable.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow. Yeah, that's a lot of patients. [laughs] Well, I want to go back to some folks that you mentioned earlier on your team and just tell me about how it all started coming together with building your team at Noula.
\n\nNOELLE: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So my co-founder and CTO, her name is Suzie Grange. She is an absolutely wonderful, brilliant engineer. Her and I actually worked together at our previous employer company called Maven Clinic. So at Maven Clinic, I was responsible for helping lead sales and business development through some growth milestones. And Suzie was the founding engineer over at Maven. So she was there for the long haul, for over seven years. And so she had left Maven before I did.
\n\nAnd once I took the leap into building Noula full-time, her and I reconnected, and we welcomed her to the team as a co-founder and CTO last year, which has been so instrumental to how we've built our product to date. We actually [laughs] ran into fun challenges many startups will where we've had to recently rebuild our entire tech stack and truly couldn't have done this without her and our back-end engineer as well. And so she's just been incredible.
\n\nAnd then we also brought on our medical director, as I shared, Dr. Marieme Mbaye, who was a practicing OBGYN based out of Brooklyn, New York City. And she has also had experience advising for women's health startups like Natalist to Frame Fertility and others.
\n\nVICTORIA: Got it. So you found your technical co-founder, or you maybe already started together and then got the technical expertise there. You mentioned taking the leap to do Noula full-time. What was that decision like for you emotionally?
\n\nNOELLE: It was a really big decision, and it was also a very vulnerable decision on my part. And so I'm going to open up about this because I think it's important to also recognize that this is a scary decision for all founders to make. When I was dealing with these chronic symptoms, that was back in 2019, so this was before I joined Maven Clinic. And I knew I wanted to build something to change the system. But I thought the best way to ensure what I was going to build were to be successful was to contribute to a company, learn as much as I could, fail fast, fail forward. So I joined Maven. I was there for almost two years, and that experience alone was instrumental.
\n\nBut ultimately, what really drove me to make the leap and place this blind faith in myself and just jump into this unknown abyss was after another health scare. I promise you I'm healthy. But I went through...in early 2021, I had a massive seizure in my sleep, and I was hospitalized where they thought I had a brain tumor. And I just remember sitting in the ambulance. And this was during COVID, so I had to go alone. I was hospitalized alone.
\n\nAnd I remember sitting in the ambulance, and I don't know why this sticks with me so much, but I remember seeing the light of the street lamp, and I was just looking at it. And I thought I'm not ready to leave the earth without making an impact here. And so I told myself, I was like, if I make it out of this alive, I'm going to do whatever it takes to change healthcare and make the impact that I want. And so I did just that.
\n\nI'm okay. I don't have a brain tumor, thank goodness. And I trusted myself trusted that the conversations that I had with friends, family, and other people who shared those experiences with me would serve as our lighthouse to building an incredibly impactful product that would reshape the future of health for good.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that's incredible that you had that experience that made you think about what really mattered and what you wanted to do with the rest of your time. It sounds like you had friends and family to support you along the way with that decision, right?
\n\nNOELLE: Yeah. And a lot of them didn't get it. To this day, my mom's like, "Don't you want to go to med school or be a nurse?" [laughs] I'm like, "No." [laughs] But yes, absolutely had their support.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that's wonderful. I mean, I can see that, even if you have a good idea that some people might be like, "Don't you need a job?"
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nNOELLE: Exactly. And that's exactly the kind of position I was in. I said, okay, I need to make a game plan. And when I quit Maven, I had joined an accelerator program called Visible Hands, which was designed by POC founders. And for three months, you got a small chunk of money. And I worked backwards, I said, okay, within this three-month period, I need to prove that Noula is a venture backable business.
\n\nAnd so I worked backwards with how much savings I had left to continue supporting myself. And that gave me till...so the program started in September, and I had basically saved enough money for myself through end of February, maybe end of March is stretching it, of 2022. And so, I worked backwards from that date and closed an oversubscribed pre-seed round in February.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow.
\n\nNOELLE: So that was really...it was very challenging. I don't think I've...I worked harder in my life than I ever had before. And so yeah, that's really kind of where we're at today. And it made me one of less than 100 Latina women to ever raise a million dollars, which is wild.
\n\nVICTORIA: Awesome that you were able to do that, and sad that the number is so small. [laughs]
\n\nNOELLE: I know. And I did the math, and we said, okay, 0.4% of venture dollars go to Latina founders. I need to have 200 meetings just to get one yes. And so I was chasing as many meetings as I could and chasing nos as fast as I could because I thought the sooner I could get a no, the quicker I could move on to the next.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, really trying to weed out people who just weren't going to be a good fit. [laughs]
\n\nNOELLE: Right.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. But ultimately, you were able to find someone who aligned with you. Was there a checklist or some kind of way that you used to decide if those investors were going to be right for you?
\n\nNOELLE: Yeah, I think, ultimately, the connection to our mission. At the early stage, they're making a bet too on founder fit, and so I wanted them to, one understand and feel confident in myself as a founder. And so I wanted to see that on the call. And then two, I also wanted to ensure they understood that this was a problem. And so there were some investors where they didn't understand the problem or why anyone would need this. And some of them didn't understand things like what menstruation was, not even kidding. [laughs]
\n\nI didn't have any...at that point, I was like, I don't have a single check. I had to make the decision, like, this isn't going to be the right partner for me. And so those were kind of my two main criteria, like, do I believe they're going to be the right partner in helping us accelerate just my vision and supporting me as a founder? Do they believe in me and in our vision? And two, do they understand the problem and the impact?
\n\nVICTORIA: Right, that makes sense. So then that kind of empowers you to continue doing the work that you know you should be doing.
\n\nNOELLE: Right.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, I wanted to ask you a little bit more about TikTok too, and how you used social media to raise your brand awareness.
\n\nNOELLE: [laughs] So, our TikTok strategy, I'm embarrassed at how long it took me to make our very first TikTok [laughs] because I probably spent way too much time trying to figure it out. But our TikTok strategy really aligns with our brand strategies. Our core pillars in terms of that really come down to leading with empathy, so showcasing real, raw, authentic stories from real people. So we can show, like, you are not alone in this. And then two, educational pieces as well.
\n\nSo we have a series called Dear Noula where anyone can write in anonymous questions to Noula. And our medical director, Dr. Marieme Mbaye, will answer those on TikTok. And so, really, what's helped drive the virality in our TikTok strategy is the marriage of that approach where one of our most viral TikToks is one of me with my ultrasound behind me. And then another one that's very educational based around what your vaginal discharge might be telling you. And so there's that blended approach to just, again, showing those real stories with digestible educational bits of content has really helped us build that brand awareness and also just the trust in our brand as well.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. And I think that's something that a lot of startups might be thinking about marketing-wise. Like, how do they use those types of tools to really connect with people? And I like the approach that you've taken with being educational and with being very real, [laughs] which makes sense. Okay, so we asked about what your biggest challenges were on the horizon. What do you think are the biggest opportunities that you could potentially take on at Noula in the next six months to a year?
\n\nNOELLE: What I'm particularly very excited about with Noula is our ability to adapt with users over time. So what we often see with a lot of digital health solutions, especially in women's health, is they tend to be very stage-specific. You use this product for fertility-related stuff, this one for pregnancy-related stuff, this for postpartum-related stuff, or STIs, for example. So they tend to be very specific.
\n\nAnd what I'm particularly eager to showcase is truly how Noula is designed to adapt with those folks over time, so from menstruation through menopause. And the more that you use Noula, the longer you use Noula, the more customized insights you'll have about your unique body to inform providers to deliver that individualized care. So truly, the thing I'm looking forward to most is time, seeing how Noula can truly fit patients' lives versus the other way around. And also being in a position where our solution isn't tied to just a reproductive stage. It's truly encompassing our whole health beyond just reproductive organs but taking into account genetics, lifestyle, environment, stress, sleep, nutrition, et cetera.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's very cool. So kind of expanding into even more tailored patient data and services that you can provide over time.
\n\nNOELLE: Yeah, and, I mean, this is information that most people's doctors don't have access to.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I could see that. And, I mean, anyone who's used a menstrual tracking app you can predict things based on the longer time period you've been tracking it, right?
\n\nNOELLE: Exactly, exactly.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's very cool. I'm excited to see it come out. And I think by the time this podcast airs; you'll have launched a new product. Is that right?
\n\nNOELLE: Yeah. So by the time this podcast launches, we'll be completely launched. I will have the app and care coaching available for anyone to use, sign up for, and it's really, really exciting stuff on the horizon.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's super cool. Well, my last question for you is if you could go back in time to when you first started Noula, what advice would you give yourself?
\n\nNOELLE: I tend to be a perfectionist. So I'd say just ship faster; don't chase perfection because things are going to change. I learned that from the beta itself, where we spent time building this product that we wanted to be so perfect. And again, [chuckle] what we learned was that the initial cohort of users who we thought would be our biggest advocates and earliest adopters of Noula was not true. And so being okay with your first iteration as being imperfect is okay. Some of the best advice I actually got after we launched our beta was that if you're not embarrassed by your MVP, you launched too late.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs] That's really funny. It should be kind of awkward, right?
\n\nNOELLE: Yeah. Isn't that great? [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really good. [laughs]
\n\nNOELLE: I wish I had heard this before. I [laughs] spent so much time trying to perfect this to the T. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: I think we're going to maybe print out a banner that says that and hang it behind [laughter] our screens or something. Yeah, I love that. And I love just how much went into the customer discovery and how you were flexible to change your hypothesis for what was going to work for people based on that.
\n\nNOELLE: Yeah. And I think one thing that really helped, too, just honestly from my sales background, was I was very mindful of not leading a horse to water when doing customer discovery. So I think often we hear that, you know, we ask very pointed questions to try to lead folks to say, "Yes, I would use your product," or, "Yeah, that sounds useful." I purposely asked very open-ended questions like, "Walk me through your experience navigating your health," and just listened.
\n\nAnd that allowed me to find patterns across the number of conversations that I had that ultimately led us to build the beta in our product that you see today is through those very open-ended questions and hearing from users themselves as far as what they thought was missing versus me saying, "If we build this feature, would you use it?"
\n\nVICTORIA: That's very cool. And I learned a lot just from taking the quiz on your website. [laughs]
\n\nNOELLE: Oh, awesome. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: So I'm really excited to see what you all come up with next. Are there any final takeaways or thoughts you want to leave for our listeners today?
\n\nNOELLE: We'd love to hear about your experience using Noula. So you can use Noula free for a limited time. We're offering 30 days of free care coaching for anyone that signs up and discounted access to the hormone testing. So just really excited to share with the world because it's about damn time we get the care that we deserve.
\n\nVICTORIA: Absolutely. Thank you so much for joining us today.
\n\nAnd you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript of this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Sponsored By:
Neal Bloom is a Managing Partner at Interlock Capital, a community of founders, investors, and subject matter experts.
\n\nVictoria talks to Neal about what he finds attractive about startups and companies he's excited about, out of all the pitches he receives, how many he gets to say yes to, and when working with a team, what he uses to manage information and contacts for investors.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Neal Bloom, Managing Partner at Interlock Capital, a community of founders, investors, and subject matter experts. Neal, thank you for joining us.
\n\nNEAL: Hey, thanks for having me. It's so great to be here with you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Fantastic. I'm excited to finally get a chance to talk with you. I met you at an investor hike that you organize once a month.
\n\nNEAL: A founders' hike, yeah. I get up nice and early on the first Wednesday of each month in Torrey Pines in San Diego. And we hike up and down the hill with ocean views. It's not a bad day.
\n\nVICTORIA: It's a great way to start the morning, I think, and to meet other people, other builders of products in technology. So tell me more about your work at Interlock Capital.
\n\nNEAL: Sure. It really kind of organically happened that I became an investor, but not planned at all. I have an aerospace background then built my own edtech and talent tech marketplace. I call it the LinkedIn for students is really what we built as our first startup called Portfolium. We sold it, and I got really into startup communities, especially because of some people who helped me with my first startup. I want to be a part of building an even better ecosystem for others. And that turned into a podcast, a blog, an event series.
\n\nAnd once I had the capital from my exit, turned into angel investing as well, too, and really just found that as I got to know people over time, the more and more I got to know them, the more certain ones stood out that said, wow, I don't just want to help them for the good of it. I also just want to be along for the ride. And I started writing checks to other founders. So that was the beginning of my investor journey about five years ago.
\n\nAnd over COVID, a whole bunch of other later-stage experience operators, either founder-level or executives at tech companies, said, "I want to learn to do this. Can I do it alongside you?" And we created Interlock Capital as an investment syndicate. A group of us can share and utilize our brainpower, our time, and our capital to help companies. It's kind of our focus.
\n\nSo that's why we call it a community because it's not just kind of a one-way pitch us, and we'll write you a check. It's very much get to know the people, find the exact right domain experts who have subject matter expertise, who've been there and done that before. If they like the company and they want to personally invest, then we go to the greater group and say, "Hey, everyone, who wants to join this deal specifically?"
\n\nSo 18 investments later from Interlock Capital, we now also have an investment fund. So now we write two checks into every company. We do our syndicated style, pass the hat, if you will, "Hey, everyone, anyone want to invest in just this deal?" And then match it from our fund. And we're writing between $300,000 to $500,000 checks into early-stage software or/and software plus hardware companies.
\n\nVICTORIA: What an incredible journey. And I love that it's led you to creating a community as part of what you do as an investment capital group. What do you find interesting about these startups and these companies that you want to be interested in?
\n\nNEAL: Part of it is how much you learn about yourself, to be honest. I get to meet three to five new founders a day in a variety of ways, whether it's straight Zoom and pitch, or grab a coffee, or see them on a hike. We're kind of constantly introducing ourselves to each other. There's a bit of learning about how to size someone up to a certain regard. So you're kind of building this inner algorithm of how to top-prank people and their ideas. That's one interesting way that I never thought I would be doing professionally.
\n\nThere's a lot that we say versus what we do, and that's a data point that I have to keep track of because I get pitched amazing ideas that will literally change the world for so much better. And you get really excited about it, and you get invested in it. And I call it founder love. You fall in love with these founders specifically and almost say, "I don't even care what you're working on. I just want to work more with you. How do we do it?" So there's a lot of that.
\n\nSo there are some dating aspects [laughs] in terms of founder dating, like getting to know people. There's the determining how do we date towards marriage? Meaning, I'll write you a check, and I'm along for the ride for the next ten years. And then there's the kind of relationship maintenance which is okay; I wrote the check, now what?
\n\nWhere can I be helpful to the company? How can I anticipate their needs so that they have to think one more thing of how to satisfy me? It's quite the opposite way around. I'm trying not to be a barrier. I'm trying to work for them while they're sleeping. So yeah, it's really interesting the kind of the relationship aspect that goes into getting to know and helping founders take their ideas and turn it into reality.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's very cool. And I have talked to people who have met you and talked to your company and just how supportive and helpful you all are even if you choose not to invest. So I think that's a really valuable resource for people. And I wonder, do you think it's something unique about the San Diego community in particular that is exciting right now?
\n\nNEAL: I think so. I think San Diego specifically has always had this culture of give-before-you-get mentality, and so we kind of lead with that. There are a lot of people moving here. And you could choose many places that could be great, like LA versus San Diego, and there's a certain kind of person that chooses here versus somewhere else. And what I have found is there's a certain kind of give-before-you-get cultural mentality here that somehow people register pretty quickly and come with. And so that's an underlying greatness about us here.
\n\nThere's also because of the great environment we live in, by the beach, healthy lifestyle. I think we choose to work on things that maybe are also satisfying, just like our personal lives, meaning we work on things that matter, that are going to change the world, that are life-changing. That's not to say that we don't need certain other kinds of technology. I'm sure at some point, we felt we needed Twitter, and maybe we don't feel like that now. [laughs]
\n\nBut here, it feels like everyone's working on very impactful things, and I think that's really special to think about. Some examples of that is we've got an interesting subset of the SaaS world in nonprofit tech. So GoFundMe was founded in San Diego. They have since acquired three other nonprofit tech SaaS companies in San Diego, like Classy. So that's kind of interesting. You've got people who want to build a business that services nonprofits, and now they're all under one roof. So yeah, I think there is something special. We can dive deeper into some of the other sub-industries or categories that are interesting here, too, if you're interested.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, I could talk about San Diego all day.
\n\nNEAL: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Because I'm a fairly new resident, and I'm in love with it, obviously. [laughs] But let's talk more about products that can change the world. Like, what's one that you're really excited about that you've heard recently?
\n\nNEAL: Ooh. I would start a little high level in certain categories that I'm really liking. I like things I'm seeing in the infrastructure space right now, meaning, you know, whether it's pipes and our water utilities, and I would include that in energy and EV, you know, kind of a mobility piece. There's even the commercial side of mobility, so trucking and freight. That whole infrastructure layer is really interesting to me right now.
\n\nA certain company that, full disclosure, we invested in recently is a company called EarthGrid. They have a product that is boring holes tunnel-wise underground, but they're using just electricity and air, so plasma. And it's fascinating. They can bore holes 100 times the norm right now. They don't need to potentially trench, meaning they don't need to cut above the surface. They can just dig for miles straight underneath the ground, so they can go under things with that. And really a lot of the expensive pieces, closing lanes on freeways or highways to put fiber in or plumbing and all that. So it's really interesting to see that.
\n\nNow, one element is the technology is interesting. But they have a plan to actually own their own tunnels that go across the entire United States. So they don't just want to be a device that they're going to sell to everyone. They want to actually own their own utility that has major tunnels across the United States. So that's fascinating to me because that's like think big, think exponential around that. So that's one area that's kind of fascinating to me.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's super interesting, and thinking about the impact it can have on making power more secure for more people, things like that. There are just so many problems to solve, and so many are people trying to solve them. [laughs] -
\n\nNEAL: Yeah, exactly. And they have a clean tech angle in that there are a lot of different ways to dig and tunnel that includes chemicals, and so their big thing is to not do that. Some of their background is installing these kinds of lines in the EV space for solar panels. So they have a big kind of clean and sustainability focus there. And our infrastructure is aging big time. We've got 100-year-old bridges and pipes and other things that it's really interesting to see the government put money into. And so that is another aspect, a business model, per se of infrastructure.
\n\nYou have the government putting billions, if not trillions, into upgrading our infrastructure, which as an investor, I like to hear that there's free capital out there in forms of non-dilutive funding to help these along, and that's existed for hundreds of years. Cars and oil industry got these kinds of subsidies, and then the EV and solar panels. So that's a good area that I like to look in as well is where is there additional large-scale funding to help these products really get to market?
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. And so you're meeting three to five founders a day, and you're watching where the funding is available. And out of all the pitches that you receive, how many do you really get to say yes to?
\n\nNEAL: Oh, it's small, I mean, one to two a month if that would be a lot, and those could take a few months to work through. The best way for us to invest is to get to know the people for as long as possible. So I kind of mentioned that relationship aspect. I want to see how people operate. I want to see how they build product. I want to see how they get to know their customer and iterate and bring that back into design thinking. And so that's a big piece is getting to know and see the people do the things that they're saying.
\n\nMan, there are so many companies that I like on paper, whether it's oh my God, amazing team, or, oh, cool, the product. Yes, love that idea. And then you have to look at everything together, the timing, the valuation that they want, the team. Has this team been there, done that before? So there are a lot of elements that go into it. Like I mentioned, you have this founder love where you fall in love with the people, and maybe the rest doesn't work out or vice versa. But yeah, I think each investor comes at it differently.
\n\nSo my area because I built two tech companies that were talent tech-related, meaning connecting people for opportunities; my investing style is very team and talent and recruitment-focused, meaning what are the superpowers of the founders? Are they aware of their weaknesses and their strengths? Have they filled in those gaps by finding co-founders that are complementary and opposites?
\n\nAnd then my partner, Al Bsharah, he is a super product guy, and he wants to break the product and see, how can you break it? What are they thinking product roadmap-wise? That's his first go-to. And so, for us, we're super complementary in that regard. So we will assess the same company in very different ways and then come together and say, "Let's share our scores, share our rank. Where do you think this company sits at in all these different areas and boxes?" And so that's a great way, that complementary skill sets as investors. We utilize those strengths together.
\n\nSo yeah, it's hard for a founder to know that. A founder who's building a product, the person on the other side of the screen, they're meeting me. They're not going to know my algorithm. They're not going to know what I value more than something else. So there's this whole dance. I wish it didn't have to be that way, but it is a dance. It's a negotiation.
\n\nAnd that's why I build a community because I'd really rather take the gloves off and get to know people when they're not raising capital, when they really are just inspired by innovation and by customers, and they're just excited, and they're building product. That's the time I want to get to know them and see how they iterate before the capital question comes in. Because when it's capital, it tends to feel a little transactional, and that's just not the name of the game per se.
\n\nVICTORIA: It makes sense. And I'm curious, working with your partner who has a specialty in product, has there ever been a big surprise that he presented with you that you would never have thought of without that product perspective?
\n\nNEAL: Oh yeah, absolutely. I think there are many times now where either the company is really touting a specific piece of their product, whether it's a certain kind of technology that as a non-product builder either I think, wow, that's unique. That's special; that's novel. And I go to my partner, who really is an automation expert in terms of product building, and boom, can whip it out in a second and say, "I could that with Zapier," or now ChatGPT. So I think there are those elements that are good checkpoints of putting too much...maybe I get too excited about uniqueness or a novelty of a product.
\n\nAnd then there's the opposite. There's the team undersells their product, and really they're touting, hey, we have a background in this industry. So we're going to go build because we know how to get into that industry. Our uniqueness is go-to-market, so they think. And it turns out, hey, you're really underselling the product here. There's something special about your vision system here or your data set that you're using to build your ML model. So I've seen a variety of both of those.
\n\nI think we're going to see more and more right now where ChatGPT and other AI models are going to show that maybe the tech exactly like AI isn't the specialty. That's going to be a democratization across the board. We're just going to expect that everyone can build a baseline product. So how are people going to differentiate on the product? That's where I'm really excited to see where product stands out now that more and more people have more tools at their disposal to build a good product.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I'm excited for that too and to see which experiments with AI really pan out to be something useful that becomes part of everyday life. Do you have any instincts on where you think you're going to see the most out of AI innovation in tech?
\n\nNEAL: AI is such a big word, and it feels so buzzwordy right now. But actually, in San Diego, we have a deep history in the high-level AI, and it starts with analytics. We have a deep, deep bench of analytics talent here. In fact, Google Analytics was founded in San Diego under the name Urchin Analytics and acquired by Google in 2004.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh.
\n\nNEAL: And so you have these big analytic models and builders here that is interesting to tap into. I kind of bucket it in a few areas. I look at the vision aspect, so motion capture, motion classification, image classification. That's really interesting that I think we'll see a lot of that that applied to blank. I'm seeing that applied to life sciences, so cancer detection through some sort of imaging. Obviously, the mobility aspect, whether it's self-driving or driver assisted for blank, whether that's drones, self-driving trucks, all those areas. That's one area interesting from the AI piece.
\n\nNatural language processing which there's a piece of ChatGPT to that regard. I think it is really interesting from what is your dataset? What are you tapping into? I'm also seeing that applied to digital health, whether it's clinical trials bringing AI models there, whether it's taking genomic data and saying, let's build better clinical trial classes. Maybe we don't need 500 patients when we can build the best 30 patients to enter a trial because we've got genomic data on our side. So yeah, I think I'm more looking at certain industries and saying, what is the right AI model for it? And I think that's pretty exciting.
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\n\nVICTORIA: So tell me, you know, at Interlock Capital, when you're working with a team, what do you use to really manage all of this information and these contacts for your investors?
\n\nNEAL: Yeah, it's a great question. We decided to build our own products in-house thanks to my partner Al who's a great product builder. At the end of the day, there are a few different funnels we are managing within Interlock Capital. We're managing our customer, which really is the startup. We want to make sure we're keeping track of them on whatever timeline. And so we use CRMs, basically, to manage funnels per se. So that's startups.
\n\nThen there's the deal flow sharing, so these are other VC firms, maybe other service providers, where we're sharing companies with each other. And then we have investors, so we're using CRM for managing our investors, like our limited partners, our LPs. So that's basic CRM. Luckily, we were able to use an off-the-shelf product called Streak for that. But what we do uniquely is we want to engage in two directions our investment community, meaning we want to get to know them, get to know everyone's expertise so we know when to tap them to say, "Hey, can you help on this deal?"
\n\nAnd help is very broad, meaning it could be to give it a quick look before I've even met them to say, "Is this something I should even be looking at?" Or I've already met the team, maybe spent a few hours with them. And I'm asking for a deep dive with an expert to say, "Join a call with me after you've reviewed a deck and help me ask harder questions." So there's that aspect of we wanted to figure out how do we get to know our people in our group? Because we're hundreds now.
\n\nSo we decided to build a platform off Bubble.io and Airtable basic no-code where we could build a light profile of everyone. So everyone self-selects a number of profile aspects about themselves. It's also where we're starting to keep data and documents for them as well too. So whether it's tax documents or other forms, we can have it all in one spot. And then lastly, when we do decide to make an investment in a company, we write a very detailed memo that starts in Google Docs but then gets built into our product, the Interlock platform.
\n\nAnd so in that memo which could honestly be 10 to 20 pages of diligence, in our language only, what are the pros, cons, and risks? We also showcase who is on the diligence team, what their specific expertise is to this investment, if they're personally investing or not. We really want to show conviction from the diligence team. And then we've built in some really cool features where you've got a Q&A board that you can upvote other people's questions about that investment.
\n\nYou can watch a video right there and then about the company, and then you can commit to the investment itself on our platform, saying, "I'm interested in this deal specifically. Here's the amount." And boom, we take you over to a third-party platform to just sign in and wire. So that's current day the product that we decided to build.
\n\nWe've got this whole product roadmap that we've built out that we want to build out more. We would love to automate a little bit more of our deal funnel so that a certain company that we meet maybe they get to a certain stage that we know we're ready for diligence. We can auto-ping the ten people that have that specific domain expertise.
\n\nSo luckily, we built out the profiles about everyone. Now we need to start building some automation in there so that maybe I'm not the bottleneck. I'm going to meet three to five companies a day, I mentioned. That's three to five follow-ups that I need to do. I'm never going to be as fast as the founder wants me to be on getting back to them and saying, "Here's our next steps." So if we can utilize the greater body of people that are in our investment community, that's where we'd love to build out some of the pieces next as well. So automation is kind of the hope there.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. And I love that you're able to take advantage of these low-code tools to build something that worked for you. What was your initial approach to figuring out how to build this in a way that worked for your user group?
\n\nNEAL: Well, we looked at a lot of existing products first, and there are. There are these angel syndicate websites like AngelList is a big one, you know, a consumer-facing platform where if you're interested in investing, you can join a group, or you can join a dozen groups and just get an email when they have a new investment opportunity.
\n\nAnd so we looked at...first, it was survey what's existing out there already. Start building a product feature must-have or is nice to have list for us to get off the ground within Interlock. And then determine the pros and cons of building off the shelf, the time and cost, and maintenance versus using something that already exists. So that was a big piece, just assessment upfront before we do anything.
\n\nAnd I think learning the landscape was big for us. I find that building tools for startups there's a lot, but there are also not a lot of mature ones because there's just not a lot of money out there to be made. There's not a billion-dollar industry of making a website to invest in startups per se yet. So that was another thing as well. It's just understanding will the companies that we choose off-the-shelf products-wise will they still be there a year or two or three from now?
\n\nAnd ultimately, we decided, you know what? We got to build it ourselves if we really want the two-way communication, not just one-way. We didn't see everything out there. And I think the piece you always underestimate is the maintenance over time as well as all the third-party tools and apps and services that you end up needing and using and how do they play into the maintenance role as well too. We've definitely had elements of our product break because they're no longer supporting that tool anymore. So those are all aspects that you can do as much as you can self-assessment upfront. There's obviously the maintenance piece that goes into it down the road as well too.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. And then, in this way, you have control over it, and you can change it as often as you want.
\n\nNEAL: Totally.
\n\nVICTORIA: And as much as you like, if you have the time. [laughs]
\n\nNEAL: One piece that I think we have never planned or expected is that because we built it and it's super unique, there are many other angel groups who have come to us and said, "Can we use your tool? Like, yours is better than anything that exists." And we did not build ours with a commercial aspect in mind at first. We can't just clone an Airtable and be like, "Here we go. Here's your product. It's Bubble and Airtable," because if it breaks for them, we're on the hook for that [laughs] as well too.
\n\nSo I don't think we thought through too much around a commercialized product when we built out our own. But because we've been pinged so many times about, can people use it? It's on our mind now. Like, it literally is on our list of priorities of hiring either part-time or full-time a product builder to go back in and commercialize aspects so that we could actually maybe turn this into a product one day, this whole investment community manager software.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really cool. And it's funny, talking to founders, there's always a story about how you set out to do one thing, which was build a community around startups and founders in San Diego, and then you end up building a product, [laughs] right?
\n\nNEAL: Yup.
\n\nVICTORIA: And getting something marketable later that you never even intended.
\n\nNEAL: Yeah, I mean, I think the big learning there is, one, listen to your customer first, then go build products. And so yes, you said it exactly; we wanted to build a community where we could be more engaged with our customer. And as we heard more and more from our customer, it told us what to build. And I always find that from other startups, that's a great model to follow as opposed to build and then go determine if there's a market out there for it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So it's interesting that you've had this experience of building tech startups from scratch and then now investing, and then now you're back [laughs], and you have a product again.
\n\nNEAL: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: So I wonder, if you could go back in time starting Interlock Capital or when you started your companies, like, what advice would you give yourself if you could travel back in time and talk to your past self?
\n\nNEAL: Oof, so much. Spend a lot of time getting to know yourself, not just what you're good at but what you like to do business-wise. And I actually see those are two different things. Sometimes the things we like to do we're not as good at, but yet we want to spend more of our time on it, and maybe it takes us longer to do it. So do some self-assessment. I would have done that more on myself.
\n\nAnd I'll give you an example, I, for whatever reason, like to brute force certain things like our email outreach, whereas my partner loves to build automation campaigns for it because he built a software in the email space. I know I could learn a quick automation route [laughs] to do certain things, but for whatever reason, I love sometimes the analog version of things. And that's good sometimes, and sometimes there's no time for that.
\n\nSo learn a lot more about myself, what I like, and what I'm good at. And then the opposite, what I don't like doing, what could I shed as quickly as possible and could hire for in some way or another, trade my time or capital for time. And then, only then, once I know myself better, then go find the perfect partner that complements everything. It's the opposite of me in that regard, opposite in network, opposite in skill sets, and in that regard too.
\n\nAnd so I think my first startup, we were carbon copies of each other. We were both aerospace engineers who kind of wanted to do the same thing who lacked emotional intelligence at the time. So yeah, that's a big learning. But I didn't know enough about myself at the time. And it took hardship to learn the hard things. Honestly, entrepreneurs seem to learn by doing more than anything. So you can only tell an entrepreneur so much. Sometimes they're just going to have to go and figure it out by running through a wall. That's one thing I would have changed about myself in that regard.
\n\nI also probably would have, even earlier during college, gotten more internships to just test myself professionally and know what environments I do well in, meaning big companies, small company, or hands-on mentorship and management or hands-off certain kinds of skill sets. How could I be presenting more often versus just kind of behind-the-scenes doing? All of those I probably could have learned quicker about myself the earlier I would have put myself in those situations as opposed to getting my first job and working at one place for five years. That's a long time to dedicate to learning one culture about that I thrive in. But you live, and you learn.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love the drive to keep learning and to be like, you know, don't expect to be good at everything [laughs] that you want to do. I think that's fantastic. And what do you see success really looking like for yourself in the next six months or in the next five years?
\n\nNEAL: This year, this calendar year is really about getting the fund up and running. So we've raised an initial tranche of capital and got through this calendar year to get the full capital we want for the fund in. And we're being really picky about that. We really want operators, so that just takes time to go and meet the right people that maybe have recently exited, so have a little bit of time and have a little capital and now want to spend time with earlier stage companies. So that's a big piece of this year.
\n\nI also, on the community side, want to scale it a little bit. I've found recurring...like the founders' hike is a really consistent and easy way to build community, just meet new people, get to meet 30 people at once instead of maybe 30 coffee meetings to meet those people and just kind of selectively choose who is good to follow up with. So building and scaling, thinking about how to scale community growth is another area, and hiring a little bit around that.
\n\nSo hiring either a community manager and understanding what does that role even mean? Because it's vague in a variety of scenarios. I think we as a company could utilize it. But I think even San Diego could really benefit from someone professionally community-managing all of us. I don't even know what that means yet. And I'd actually push that back on you. Like, you're recent to town. You've started to meet people in a variety of venues. What's the community management void that you see that exists locally?
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, great question. I'm actually going to the Annual March Mingle tonight. This episode will come out a little bit later.
\n\nNEAL: I'll be there too.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, I was like, I'm going to interview you and probably see you later. [laughs]
\n\nNEAL: Awesome.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I think what's interesting about what I've experienced so far is that there is a thriving community. People show up to events. There are a lot of different focuses and specialties. Like, there's the San Diego Design and Accessibility meetup, which had over 30 people over and has a lot of great content. The tech coffees usually have your standard crew who comes.
\n\nI'm in North County in Encinitas, and then there's Downtown San Diego. And I think you and I have talked about this, that there isn't as much of a major hub. And people are kind of spread out and don't really like to travel outside of their little bubble, which isn't necessarily unique to San Diego. [laughs] I think we've seen this in other areas too. So I think deciding where and how and maybe just building that group of community organizers too. One thing we had in DC was we would have a meetup of all the meetup organizers. [laughs]
\n\nNEAL: Ooh.
\n\nVICTORIA: They were just the people who are running events would get together and meet each other and talk and get ideas and bounce off, and maybe that exists in San Diego, but I just haven't tapped into it yet.
\n\nNEAL: Well, that's a great, great, great, great point because, yeah, learning from others. Everyone is out there doing. Let's learn what's working and what's not. I do that actually from community to community. I do compare...I'll pop into a city on personal travel, but I'll look for, say, the Neal Bloom of Phoenix or something [laughter] and share quick notes. Something Startup San Diego started... when Startup San Diego started ten years ago and became a nonprofit shortly thereafter, it wanted to be the convener of all the organizations that help startups.
\n\nAnd so there became kind of the startup alliance, I think, where it was all people who run different startup orgs, mostly nonprofits or just meetups getting together. And that hasn't come back since COVID, and I don't know if anyone's thought to bring it back. So this is a great time to think about that. Let's do it. Let's absolutely get the startup community alliance back together and sharing what's working and what's not.
\n\nSomething else that I think matters as we're coming out of COVID and really matters also for product is it feels like curation matters way more than anything before. Like, we value our time more. We want to be home a bit more. And so we're only going to go to the things that we know there's some value out of it as opposed to, oh, I'll show up to that thing. It sounds cool. I get free pizza.
\n\nSo the curation piece, I think, is interesting to think about, like, how do you scale curation? Because if you make smaller groups and make it more valuable, you still can't make a group for everyone. Someone's always going to be missing out. That's a piece when I think of how has product worked really well for that? Obviously, product has done amazing things on curation with using filters and ranking and other things. How do you do that in real-time for community?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that's a really cool idea. And it's interesting talking with organizers from Women Who Code DC who are still there and coming back from COVID. They were all virtual events, and now they're having part virtual and part in-person. And it's interesting where some people really want to get back to the in person and see people in real life. The virtual is also still a very good option for people altogether across the board.
\n\nSo, yeah, I think you're 100% right on the event has to be kind of worth it. [laughs] And how do we make that real? But we still have all these other options for connecting with each other too, and we should take advantage of this. I love that here if we're going out in person, you're on a patio. [laughs] You're outside. Even though it's pouring down rain right now so we're probably going to get rained out a little bit.
\n\nNEAL: I don't think I realized how outdoorsy we already were until this recent rain, one, because COVID forced everyone outdoors already. So for the last three years, we've only been going to places that have been outdoors. But then I realized, wait, every coffee shop I go to already is just open air. Every brewery, every restaurant is open-air. We've got it pretty good here. March Mingle, as big as it is, which it's like you're 17, 18, maybe 20, it's always an amazingly cool crowd and a crowd that I don't always see at every event. It's not the same, same people. It's a crowd that just comes to March Mingle.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's super cool. I'm excited to see you there later. And maybe by the time we've aired this episode, I'll have actually posted about it, so it won't be a surprise [laughs] for anybody. But I love that. Okay, so, wait, that was...did we talk about six months and five years into the future of success?
\n\nNEAL: We didn't. We just talked this calendar year. Five years out, professionally, I think a well-oiled community, multiple funds under management that maybe have realized, like, let's have one with different focus. Maybe there's an infrastructure tech fund, maybe there's a diabetes tech fund. I'd love to explore the curated focused thesis aspects because it's easy to be pretty general when I'm meeting so many interesting companies, and I have so many experts at my disposal. Maybe it makes sense to have multiple smaller focused funds in that regard.
\n\nI think five years out; also, we will have probably weathered some financial storms, probably be on the upswing of that, and therefore maybe there are some exits that would have happened in town. There's certainly a number of late-stage tech companies that have been at it 10, 15 years that a lot of early investors and employees with stock are just kind of waiting for a liquidity event, and I really think by then we will have seen that. And that will be really interesting to see if and how people recycle their capital back into the community, both from investing, from giving philanthropically, and then their time as well.
\n\nSometimes when you have really big success, it's easy to check out and leave, and I'm hoping we're getting ahead of that cycle now. We're getting people to put some skin in the game now so that when the exits happen, they stay connected because they're got some investments in the community. So I'm really hoping that we've closed the wheel on the flywheel of capital, recyclable capital here in San Diego five years out from now.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, I really like that. And I think it makes sense from that idea of if you've benefited from being able to run your own company and to work with all these people in San Diego that when you exit, you invest that back into the community and grow future companies with it.
\n\nNEAL: Exactly. I mean, someone helped you, all of us, and they're just ahead of us. It kind of behooves all of us; then, to each stage and phase we go forward, we should look back and say, "How can we help someone behind us?" And we started this conversation that is a very San Diego culture thing. And so I'm really excited to see when that line bends back on itself, that flywheel closes.
\n\nSo the other aspects of that is we're starting to build some crossroads with Tijuana. We tried before COVID, and we're trying again now. And I'm really excited to see the long-term effect of connecting these cross-border communities. And then we talked about some technology, five years out, man, if GPT is updating so quickly now, I can't even imagine what AI is building product by itself five years from now. And where do the humans play a role in that?
\n\nPeople love the splashy headline articles of here's where AI is going to replace your jobs. I'm thinking quite the opposite. I'm so excited for the new jobs to emerge that don't exist right now, for us to complement technology, that, you know, we'll be doing things that are better than humans. So that's a whole piece of technology and product that I'm excited to see play out.
\n\nVICTORIA: I agree. I think that it's humans plus machines make the most impact, right? [laughs]
\n\nNEAL: Exactly.
\n\nVICTORIA: It by itself won't do it. But I think that's fantastic. What a great note to kind of end on. But is there anything else that you want as a final takeaway for our listeners?
\n\nNEAL: One, I'd love to meet you if you're building an interesting product. I'd love to connect you into our community, so that's a self-serving ask. Find me on LinkedIn or Twitter; probably, Twitter's easier. Write me that you heard me on Giant Robots Smashing Into Others. Absolutely would love to hear that feedback loop. Also, come check out San Diego sometime. Come join our founders' hike. If you're listening to this, pretty much we have it on every first Wednesday of each month. We'd love to welcome you into the community here.
\n\nAnd if you have an idea for a startup but haven't started yet, that's a great time to be talking and thinking how could I iterate way sooner than you would have thought. So don't wait to get started on something; just start talking to people about it. Don't be afraid to share your product ideas. No one's going to steal it. So I would just tell people to get started sooner than you think. And the world will benefit from you putting that out into the universe.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. Thank you so much for sharing and for being a guest on our show today, Neal. We'll have links for how to get connected with you in our show notes.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Neal Bloom.
Sponsored By:
Brian Feretic is the Founder of Blossm, a community marketplace to buy, sell, and trade plants.
\n\nVictoria talks to Brian about how coming up with the concept happened, getting started in a very scrappy way and then filling in gaps, and opening up the app to have full marketplace functionality with buying, selling, and trading capabilities.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido or Tori. And with me today is Brian Feretic, Founder of Blossm, a community marketplace to buy, sell, and trade plants. Brian, thank you for joining us.
\n\nBRIAN: Hey, it's great to be here, Tori.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. I'm excited to hear more about Blossm. Why don't you just tell me a little bit more about the concept?
\n\nBRIAN: The concept actually happened at the end of 2019, and I'd already been a plant enthusiast for a couple of years. I was actually just going on my way to surf in my town of Ocean Beach, San Diego, and I stopped by this garage sale. And when I came back to pay my neighbor, I brought this rubber plant that are propagated just as a neighborly gift. She flipped out. She was ecstatic. She's like, "Oh my God, I'm such a huge plant person. Thank you so much. Why don't you come into my backyard, and I'll give you a plant tour, and you can pick something out."
\n\nAnd what was cool about this was it wasn't just like a simple exchange. It was like this hour-long interaction with someone that lived four blocks from me that happened to be this big plant nerd like me. And I got her whole story. She went through all these different species I didn't know about. And then, she helped me pick one out, which I still have to this day. It's this crassula succulent. When I was walking home with my new plant, I was like, oh wow, I got to go download the app for this. I would have never known this person that lives four houses away was a big plant person like me.
\n\nAnd when I got home, I searched the App Store. I did a Google search. I just couldn't find what I was looking for, which was basically this plant-swapping plant-connecting platform where I could find fellow plant nerds in my neighborhood. And so that kind of set me off on this path. I did some more research and decided...I was like, you know what? I'm going to commit to this and make this happen for myself and for my community.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, what do you think makes someone a plant person [laughs] or like a...how did you describe yourself? A plant nerd? What sets that user apart?
\n\nBRIAN: We'll say it's like on a spectrum where people can shift along the spectrum. But I'd say when people start treating their plants more than objects and more what they are. They are these living things. They're beautiful. They bring people joy. I find it therapeutic to take care of them. And then the beautiful thing about it is that these plants grow, and you can propagate them and share them with your friends. And I think that is a critical aspect of this whole plant person thing.
\n\nVICTORIA: So the plants have become a little more like pets, and you can grow them in a way that creates a community around your friendship and your local area.
\n\nBRIAN: Yeah, exactly. That was actually the early signal about this whole plant world is that I saw people creating plant-dedicated Instagram accounts as if it was your dog or cat. And that was something that I realized this is a different type of person. This is a very passionate person willing to, like, they're so proud of their plant babies, we call them. [laughter]
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And it's funny, you say, plant babies. When I think of people I know who I would consider plant people, they do talk to their plants like their babies. They're like, "Oh, it's so cute." [laughs] Or they're like, "Oh, he's not feeling so well." So I think that's great. And so you started to do some research into this community, into this group. What surprised you about your early findings?
\n\nBRIAN: This was actually something that I didn't realize until I dug deeper was that I thought that it was only going to be a local thing. People wanted to experience what I did with Sondra, who's the neighbor I swapped with, this in-person connection, swapping, checking each other's gardens out and houseplants. But I learned very quickly that people ship plants to each other not only within your own state but across the country, and this is global.
\n\nAnd I was just like, how do people ship plants? Turns out I do it all the time, almost weekly now, for years. That aspect was critical to realize, all right; this plant community doesn't necessarily have to be bound by physical in-person distance. It can connect online, and people share all over via shipping.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really cool. So you decided that there's a whole international community. So is that when you decided to really start building something like an application to help people?
\n\nBRIAN: I remember just throwing this idea out to a lot of different friends, like, various backgrounds. And I was like, "Hey, what do you think of this idea about connecting people through this shared love?" And there is not one person who thought it was a terrible idea. And then I remember talking about it with a roommate at the time, and basically the same thing. I was like, "Hey, man, imagine people connecting through the shared passion. Who knows? Maybe even love can blossom." And he was like, "Dude, that's what you should call it." I was like, oh, that's a great name. It's about three and a half years now, and it's stuck ever since.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that, [laughter] about sharing love, and how the name came about, and just starting with your friends and people you knew and bouncing ideas off of them. But your background is not specifically in technology. So what about your background applied? And what did you have to learn new to take along this journey?
\n\nBRIAN: So my whole career, I've been involved within the science sector. I actually moved to San Diego to pursue graduate school in neuroscience. I was very curious about kind of full neural networks and how those contribute to behavior. Actually, the Ph.D. program I wanted to get into at UCSD, there's a specific lab doing this really cool research with this new innovative imaging technique. And I applied twice, and I didn't get in. And so I went into biotech.
\n\nBut I would say probably two things helped me. I realize now going through this entrepreneur path, things that helped train me for this, was definitely a graduate school where you're pretty much broke the whole time. My lab didn't have too much funding, so you had to be really resourceful and creative to figure stuff out with minimal resources. And that's perfectly summed up the last couple of years, just like figuring stuff out.
\n\nWe have no money. How do we get awareness of our product when we can't spend, you know, we don't have ad spend or marketing budget? And it just kind of requires you to get creative and think outside the box and just really think, all right, what do I do here? And I came up with some hacky-type strategies that have been very effective. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, very cool. It sounds like you found your team now to start working with you on this in a very scrappy way. So how did you fill in those gaps, maybe in your knowledge or your background on how to get this done by the people that you grew around you?
\n\nBRIAN: For me, it wasn't too difficult. Well, one, my background. I was very naive with tech at the time and just programming in general. So my first task, I laid out three options. It was like, one, I can learn how to code. I dabbled in it for a week, and I was like, man, there's no way. [laughter] Two, I was like, I can outsource it, maybe somewhat cheaply, but I don't want to spend all my savings on it.
\n\nBut more, I knew that, you know, say you come out of MVP product, the product always is growing, adapting, evolving, or you encounter bugs. And I could just see how full of friction the process would be if I had to, like, all right, we have found a bug, send the contract out. They have to accept the contract. And I just knew progress would be too slow to operate in that fashion.
\n\nAnd the third option was, like, find a technical co-founder and pursue this dream with, you know, a buddy. I was like, all right, who do I know that is in the computer stuff? And that was my thought. And my first guy I pitched it to was a friend I went to college with at Bucknell University. And he was like, I think, "This is a good idea." But he's like, "I'm going to retire probably in five years, and this is going to be a very lengthy thing." He's like, "I'm not interested."
\n\nThe second guy was extremely down for it, but it turns out he didn't know how to do any mobile app development. He uses a consultant. [laughs] And so the third and who I ended up working with was my surfing and climbing buddy Nick Mitchell. I just knew he did computer-type stuff. I pitched him the idea, and he was like, "What's up with this plant thing?"
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs]
\n\nBRIAN: And I was like, "Oh, dude, this is a rapidly growing market. I know the ins and outs really well. I know this audience. I'm one of them." He wasn't sold until he heard an NPR piece talking about the houseplant boom. And then his father sent him an article from the New York Times saying how millennials are embracing houseplants and driving this new houseplant market.
\n\nAnd so I think this was maybe end of December, now in 2019. And he hit me up, and of course, he's like, "Oh, dude, I want in. Let's do it." But I also wanted to make sure I knew he could actually do what was the task at hand. [laughter] So I had my other first friend vet his GitHub and stuff just to make sure. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, cool. [laughs]
\n\nBRIAN: And he was like, "Yeah, you know, he looks good. Worth a shot." And it turns out Nick is excellent. He did all the front end, back end. He built this whole app basically from scratch. It's pretty amazing what he's capable of. So I got it right on the third try. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: That's funny. And I'm not surprised it came from networking in the climbing community, either.
\n\nBRIAN: Right. There's a lot of smart...definitely a lot of smart people in the climbing community. And those are like my closest friends now. So it was kind of cool to find someone in that place.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I've been climbing with friends before, and you're talking about work or whatever. And they're like, "Oh, yeah, I'm also like an Azure architect," [laughs] like some specific skill that's related to what you need. And I think it's a similar cultural mindset of people you want to be working with too. Maybe that's just me. So, okay, so you found your partner. You had someone who had all the skills that you needed to make this happen. How long did it take until you really had something you were proud of?
\n\nBRIAN: So, for me, I was laid off in August of 2019. I was working at Celgene, and they got acquired by Bristol Myers Squibb for like 72 billion, so massive merger. And I was kind of getting over the field. And so I was already basically unemployed. Nick, when we started actually working together in...we'll just call it January 2020. We started working on it casually, and then the pandemic happened. And then he got laid off. And he did about a three-month stint before he got another job at ServiceNow.
\n\nBut within those three months, he really cranked out like a full MVP. And then I had about probably at least 60 or 70 people I knew beta test the product for feedback and just initial thoughts. And so that was like a very critical time where we were all locked down. We have this cool idea. Let's just crank this out. So we had an MVP pretty quick. And then we actually launched it in June 2020. And I was already very stoked about the product. As long as it did its core thing, which is connecting people through this shared love, I knew it was like a proper test, a good enough test to see if this is a worthy endeavor.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really cool. So was there any surprising feedback that you got from that initial beta testing?
\n\nBRIAN: Yeah. [laughs] So the initial concept was essentially like a Tinder for plants. [laughter] And I was just thinking about this idea, like, if people could just swipe on plants they've uploaded, and then if both people liked a particular plant and they swiped on each other, and they matched, it would open up a chat that would connect them.
\n\nAnd it took the...one of the issues with bartering, in general, is people are like, "Oh, I'd love to swap that with you." And they're like, "Oh, what do you want to swap? What do you have?" And a lot of times, people don't align with what they have and what they want to swap. So I figured that would get this kind of friction out of there, but still, the core was connecting people. And then, very quickly, people found it fun. And this is still a feature right now on Blossm, which we've moved to the homepage. And it got a lot of engagement and interactions on it.
\n\nBut one of the simple changes was like, all right, maybe this is not the optimal way to present these plants people are uploading. Nick actually drew a lot of inspiration from OfferUp. And he was like, "Oh, this is very simple. This is a very clean way to present these things." So we started getting inspiration from OfferUp, and we changed that kind of swipe card functionality just to a scrollable grid. And that was a great insight on his part, and some of that has been core to the product from that point on.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's so cool. So I can just go in the app and see a whole list of plants that people are willing to trade.
\n\nBRIAN: Right. Actually, I would say another thing that happened very early on, too, was, once again, bartering is not the most efficient way to exchange things with each other. And within weeks, we're seeing people being like, "Oh, well, what do you want to swap?" And then people are like, "Oh, well, I don't want to swap for that. I already have that." And then other people are like, "Hey, I don't want to swap anything. I just want to buy it." And then other people are like, "Hey, I don't have anything. but how do I get stuff for you?"
\n\nSo right away, we opened it up to full marketplace kind of functionality with buying, selling, and trading. And we didn't have necessarily any payment system to facilitate that. We would just connect people. And then they would use Venmo, or Paypal, or Cash App, or things like that.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense.
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\n\nVICTORIA: Now you kind of got your core features figured out, and you see people engaging with the app. What are you the most excited about on the horizon in your roadmap?
\n\nBRIAN: We're about to actually finish the TechStars accelerator next week. Next week is our demo day. It's been such a great experience, and I feel blessed. But during this time, we're really figuring out, like, what's our big vision with Blossm? And we kind of went back to really harp on, like, we're more than just an e-commerce or marketplace. We're like this special passionate community where people can do this buying, and selling, and trading.
\n\nOne of the things that's been the trend for years now is instead of just photos; we're about to integrate some video functionality. This is a lead in to the bigger goal. And the idea is creating this...we're calling this full plant experience focused around live video where people can engage with each other on this totally different intimate level and can really showcase their plant collection and give each other a plant tour. How do you take care of this plant? Is another big topic that always comes up.
\n\nIt's just hard to really decipher what's wrong with something just from ecstatic images. And we imagine we could have live plant help. And then people can just show their plant up to the camera and showing a really holistic view of what's going on. And so this vision of live with video and creating a more complete plant experience centered around really using the community as this way to promote that and really build that even further.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's very cool. I think I've talked to you a little bit before about this giant fiddle fig I have in my office. [laughs] It's going to the ceiling. And I got it from Home Depot, so it may not be the highest quality. And I've asked you about, like, is it alive? It keeps dropping leaves. So if I had a video and I could just show you around and show you where the leaves are browning a little bit and where it's not growing, I could see the value in having that interaction like that.
\n\nBRIAN: Yeah, exactly. No one's doing that. And definitely, we want to keep innovating the space. We were first to market many years ago. And then, actually, we have some direct competitors that are blatantly just copying us, like copying email templates, features. And on one hand, it's flattering, but also we realize we have to be careful about positioning and making sure we stay ahead of the curve. And we think this is going to be the future and something that delivers really extreme value to this demographic.
\n\nVICTORIA: Absolutely. And you mentioned you're a part of a tech accelerator. Could you tell me a little bit more about choosing which program you went to and how that's affected your overall approach to your app?
\n\nBRIAN: Yeah. So last year, we added two more team members, so actually Nick's younger brother, Calvin, we poached from Amazon, which felt really good. [laughter] And then we had another friend, Ari Olmos, who we knew had experience in the startup world. He started, or I think he was, co-founder or CEO of a few other social mission startups. So he understood just the fundraising process was probably the most critical trait we're looking for, just someone that can help refine our systems, our processes, things like that. So now we're a team of four.
\n\nAnd we were like, all right; we need money if we want to keep this alive. And I've been full-time since the idea conception. Ari joined full-time. Nick and Calvin both had jobs. But we just knew it's critical for a high-potential startup like ours to really grow; we needed some sort of fundraising. And it seemed logical. We gave our shot at proper fundraising with some angels and VCs last year. There were very encouraging signs, but didn't necessarily translate to any checks being written for us. And then we applied to a bunch of accelerators; Y Combinator and TechStars were our top two.
\n\nWe got a few rounds of interviews from TechStars, and the director, Ryan Kuder, who's great; he's actually based in San Diego. And I credit him to definitely being a key component here because I knew he really liked us. He saw the really good complementary team we built. We had a pretty mature product with traction and an active user base. And we accepted, and it did a lot of things for us. It was our first proper fundraising beyond a Kickstarter. So Nick and Calvin became full-time once we got in.
\n\nAnd then we just had this, like, you have access to this massive network and get this really detailed one on one mentorship. We had almost six or seven mentors that we met with weekly. They're always available to help. And probably the coolest thing about it is they're just there to help you. There's no two-sided, like, I'll help you if you can help me. We are here to help you build, grow, accelerate your business.
\n\nAnd they gave us really good insights on direction, really formalizing how to build in systems that will last much longer than the three month-program that essentially just mimicked a lot of stuff we've done on the program within our own team, like hosting little daily stand-ups every day. We've always done weekly meetings but using that time more efficiently, knowing how to test and measure more effectively. They've really just refined our company to be a proper business instead of four dudes trying to make this cool plant app.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really cool. And I wonder now, like, after you've had this experience, what advice would you give yourself if you could go back in time to when this all started?
\n\nBRIAN: First thing that popped in my head was...and I kind of knew this going into it, like, this is a big project that needs time. Things that prevent startups usually is, one, you don't execute, or you just don't start it at all, or you give up too soon. And I guess I would tell myself, hey, things are going to be all right. Like, just keep sticking with it. And you're getting all the signals; this is something substantial and worthwhile. Just be patient, stick with it. Survive those valleys, and there are peaks on the way. And getting into TechStars was the ultimate validation. Yeah, I feel extremely blessed to be in it. And I think we're poised to do big things this year.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's very cool. So you've mentioned those peaks and valleys and how much time you have to spend on this type of starting a company [laughs] and building an app. How do you balance that with also having a regular life and going surfing and climbing?
\n\nBRIAN: It's tough to find your specific balance and especially during the accelerator where I didn't want to waste any opportunity. So there were a lot of times...I think January was a month straight no days off. And actually, I was injured so I couldn't surf, climb, or even play piano, so all my outlets. But just be okay with setting aside time to where you don't think about work at all. And it took me a few months to reach that point. And I found that as long as I have one activity or some exercise per day, either I surf or climb, I'm good. I don't mind working 12-plus hour days if I do one of those.
\n\nAnd then just to allocate one day of the week where I am like, I do a couple of hours in the morning. But one mostly day of don't think about work, just enjoy life. And that has been enough for me to feel refreshed going into next week. And so I think I got a good rhythm, and I got a good formula for what works for me. It might be different for other people, but it's important to set aside time where you don't think about it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. Yeah, just to turn off your brain. Sometimes I find, like, you know, you mentioned surfing and climbing helps you do that because you really just can't be on your phone [laughs] when you're out there sometimes.
\n\nBRIAN: Right. It's kind of funny because I'll almost say it's a catch-22. But sometimes, those things can be distracting, but they're also necessary for you to be focused if that makes sense. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, totally. Let me bring it back to plants. What is your favorite house plant that you have right now?
\n\nBRIAN: Man, it's changed over the years, but I do have one. It's like the most popular high-in-demand one; it's the Monstera albo. Its common counterpart is the Monstera deliciosa, which is all green. This one has white variegation on the leaves. They're just inherently beautiful plants. And anyone that sees it can be like, "Wow, that is gorgeous."
\n\nBut I have one specific one, and why it's my favorite is that years ago, I was telling a climbing friend about the app, and I guess the app is out by now, but telling her about it. And she's like, "Oh, my grandmother was a huge plant person. My mom now takes care of them. I think she has one of those Monstera plants with the white on it. It was my grandma's though." And I was like, no way. I have to see this. And when I get there, she has this massive one, incredibly mature and old. I think she said it was almost 50 years old. I can't even believe this.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow.
\n\nBRIAN: And then I asked her. I was like, "Hey," [laughs] I was like, "Can I have a little bit of that?" [laughs] And she was like, "Oh yeah, just go ahead. This is a plant. I'll grow it back." And I felt a little bad because I took a nice big cutting like multiple leave cutting. And she absolutely did not care and just was so happy. Turns out she had three of these like big mother plants. There's one cutting that had very low variegation, so it showed barely any white on it. Over time, I grew it out. Every subsequent leaf kept showing more and more white. And now it's just so beautiful.
\n\nI check up on it every day, and every new leaf is just more beautiful than the next. And it's a special one. And it was gifted to me by my friend's mother. It started off like you can say a lowly variegated plant, and now it's just thriving and beautiful. So it has some history, and it came from a friend. So without a doubt, that's my favorite one. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: That's very cool. Yeah, I know those Monsteras that you're talking about. They're really interesting-looking plants. I kept one alive for a short time, and I'm very proud of myself for it. [laughs] So I'm interested in using Blossm to keep my plants alive possibly. But that's awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that. What else can I ask you? Is there anything that I should ask you that I haven't yet?
\n\nBRIAN: Well, we could actually segue from what you just said. This is an interesting thing. So I think everybody who's been through this has gone through this exact process. So they have a couple of plants. They're like, what's wrong with my plant? How do I take care of this? And they go down the Google rabbit hole, or they happen to buy one of these plant ID plant care apps. Usually, they're like freemium. You get a couple of free tries, and then you have to buy a subscription or whatever.
\n\nI also did this. And I was like, you know what? These apps suck. They just don't work, or they're too general. The best plant advice you can get is from other plant people because there are so many variables. Like, which growing zone are you in? What kind of light do you have? What's your ambient humidity, temperature? All these factors come into play on how to properly care for your plant and what could be wrong. And the best advice I've gotten was from other plant people.
\n\nAnd so we have, like, beyond the marketplace grid, we have this fully functioning community forum essentially like a Facebook group in a way where people can post questions about what's wrong with my plant, or what plant is this? Or share memes and just nerd out. And it's been such a critical component I think of Blossm to cultivate this community. But it's also just very functional and effective because really the only way to get that advice and care information is by interacting with other people. That's something we want to build upon in the future too with that whole live and video capabilities.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that makes sense. Just a funny story, sometimes I'll call my mom who's a big plant person, and ask her questions, and she's like, "Well, you should go check that book I got you." [laughter] It's like, it's not helpful at all. [laughs] But yeah, no, I think that's right. I think people get excited about AI and image recognition. But sometimes it's still easier to get a real effective answer from a human.
\n\nBRIAN: Yeah, I'd be curious with the whole AI getting its spotlight right now. And without a doubt, I could see applications there for it. Right now, I don't think that exists, but I'm very curious and excited to see what happens with all of it. It's going to be cool.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Well, that's awesome. And I am excited that what Blossm does is really create this community around plants and learning about them and with the people around you. Do you have any final takeaways for our listeners?
\n\nBRIAN: Hmm, final takeaways, you know, shameless self-promotion; if you love plants or you're getting into plants, Blossm is tailored for the plant person, which is what I think makes it special. And more general, I never intended to be the entrepreneur. I never intended for Blossm to be like, oh, this big tech company. I just had something I was super passionate about and wanted to see come alive for myself and for other people.
\n\nWithout a doubt, that passion paired with perseverance, I think, are critical attributes to follow any idea to the end or to some level of success. So don't be afraid to take that leap. By no means has it been easy. It's been the most difficult thing I've ever done but also the most rewarding. It's been really fun too. So if you got a cool idea, maybe try to build it out, find a good co-founder, a good team. Give it a go and create something for everyone.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, I really loved your story, Brian. I think you've found your niche. You built something. You took advantage of the time you had when you had it, and look where you are now. [laughs] I'm very excited to see what comes next.
\n\nBRIAN: Cool. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This has been lovely, and yeah, stoked to listen to the next episodes too.
\n\nVICTORIA: Excellent. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Brian Feretic.
Sponsored By:
Etienne de Bruin is Founder of 7CTOs and Author of CTO Excellence in 100 Days.
\n\nVictoria talks to Etienne about his book, founding 7CTOs, and keeping your technology sustainable by inspiring and motivating technology teams and people to work together and build complex systems.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Etienne de Bruin, Founder of 7CTOs and Author of CTO Excellence in 100 Days. Etienne, thank you for joining me.
\n\nETIENNE: My pleasure, Victoria. Thanks for having me.
\n\nVICTORIA: You're welcome. I'm excited to talk with you today. I hear that you recently published your book. Is it today actually the day it came out?
\n\nETIENNE: Today is the day. The book was finished about; I would say, three months ago. So I have had great anticipation now for many, many months. And you caught me on the day, so I feel like today is my birthday.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs] Well, I feel honored that you chose us as your first stop [laughs] in your marketing push for your book. So tell me, what in your experience led you to begin writing this?
\n\nETIENNE: Well, as you mentioned, I founded 7CTOs. I think it's about ten years ago now. I myself am a CTO type. I've had a career of basically being born to code in South Africa, which took me to Stellenbosch University in South Africa. I then joined a startup that took me to Germany and then landed in the U.S. in San Diego. And my whole journey has been a progression from individual contributor and really having great coding skills through the messiness and the intricacies of building startups, contributing to startups, and ultimately being in the role of CTO in startups.
\n\nAnd what led me to founding 7CTOs was just a realization that I didn't have the support I needed. I felt like I was going to many meetups, which was mostly oriented towards coding and sort of different new technology stacks and frameworks, or I was going to cocktail hours with vendors who were trying to sell you something. And I really felt the need to just be with my people so that I could, in a safe, and consistent, and accountable way, share the challenges that I was experiencing.
\n\nIt was really from this place of founding 7CTOs, talking to hundreds of...I've probably spoken to thousands of CTOs by now. I've also placed people. I've connected people. I've seen people join companies because of connections I've made. And one of the things I saw that really bothered me was finding a great company in search of a CTO reaching out to me, talking to me about the role, me finding or through my network connecting them with a great CTO, only to find that a few months later either the relationship fizzles or even worse, the person did not succeed at the new company.
\n\nAnd I just felt like you can have two people, a great founder, and great CTO, individually wonderful people, ostensibly well-suited to work with each other, but then make some basic mistakes that then lead towards not the desired outcome. And so I was really torn whether I should put some thoughts into a book or into some blog posts about what I think the first 100 days should look like in a fledgling relationship. And that's ultimately how the book was born. So long, long, long, long answer, Victoria. But that's where it all started.
\n\nVICTORIA: No, that's great. I try to ask deep questions that get full answers back. [laughs]
\n\nETIENNE: You nailed it.
\n\nVICTORIA: So I appreciate that context, yeah. So you talk about how to be successful in those first 100 days, which is critical to joining a new leadership team. What are some common mistakes that you mention that a CTO might make? And on the reverse side, what are some wins you could do early on to build trust?
\n\nETIENNE: I think a common mistake that I see is a bit of an identity issue. The CTO joins an organization and is eager to deliver value, and I think that that value is oftentimes misplaced. And what I mean by that is you hit the ground running thinking that there's all this stuff that you have to deliver in order to prove that you can make an impact, to prove that you were the right choice. And I think there's an innate desire to impress your new employer, which I don't think is limited to the role of CTO. But I think for the CTO, this looks like some technical achievements and impact, problem-solving.
\n\nAnd I think what I like to see is the first 100 days being used to slow down a little bit, to listen, to be curious, to be open to building relationships, to have a longer view on what exactly is the system that you're joining. And I think to a fault; sometimes people will ignore the system they're joining and just start delivering value. And I think that that can often be misinterpreted or misunderstood. And then, if that is misunderstood in the first few months, then that really sets a tone for the rest of the tenure that I think puts the CTO on the back foot to deliver at a pace that maybe is unsustainable, so...
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that you said staying curious because I think what you can see is a tendency for, I don't know, what I've seen; maybe you've seen this too. [chuckle] But some people have a problem that they solved in a past situation, and they think that that is now the solution to every problem that they come into in a new organization, and maybe it is. But I think dealing in complex systems, having curiosity as to why decisions were made in a certain way can lead you to a better understanding of the business if that resonates with you at all.
\n\nETIENNE: Yeah, I love that you said that. I'm a huge fan and student of complex systems. And so you just spoke my love language.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs]
\n\nETIENNE: But that's exactly what happens. And I think that sometimes the debilitater of powerful and impactful people is the problem that you observe is maybe tainted by what you saw in the past. It might be a similar challenge, a similar problem. But what you solved in the past was part of a completely different system, different entities, different relationships.
\n\nAnd I think that by nature because the CTO is used to solving thousands and thousands of problems, there may be a bit of complacency around what is it exactly that I'm observing is the challenge here? Why exactly was I hired? What exactly does success look like for them, for the people that hired me, for the system that I've come into? And I think the tendency is to ignore all of those questions and focus on how do I feed my own need to feel valued and start solving problems in sort of a whack-a-mole style?
\n\nAnd I have found, even in my own experience, that there are some seriously unintended consequences that can arise from solving people's problems for them in ways that they are not used to, or they don't understand, or in some places just fully disagree with. And I think if you are not patient and take sort of 100 full days to just chill out and really enjoy learning about the system that you're joining, I think you're setting yourself up to fail or to at least be very unhappy.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right, setting yourself up for some fun conflicts [laughs] to solve if you come out right out the gate. And I think maybe, too, the first 100 days the chilling out and learning, you also have time to build empathy and build trust with people so that when you do bring up suggestions, they're maybe a little more willing to listen, right?
\n\nETIENNE: Yes. And I think it's not uncommon to say, "Oh, well, I'm going to onboard myself. It's going to take some time before I show value." And I think there is a general sense that when the executive joins a company that, it's going to take some time. But I think that the temptation to jump into fiery situations is great, great in a bad way. It's a great temptation. And my book and my approach suggests that you take a step back and focus on a completely different area of the company, which is its people and its systems, and what success looks like for those people before you start jumping in and asserting your way of doing things.
\n\nVICTORIA: And you mentioned a question that I was going to ask, like, what does success look like? Or say you're a CEO, and you're trying to hire a CTO; what does success look like? What kind of value do you think people should expect from someone in a CTO role?
\n\nETIENNE: Fundamentally, I think I might not be swimming in the mainstream on this topic. I don't believe that the CTO is a technical role first. I believe that the CTO is the Chief Technology Officer but is primarily a business role. And by that, I mean being a member of the C-suite, you are tasked, just like all the other members of the C-suite, to grow a company in a sustainable way. And whatever that middle letter is, is your domain and your expertise, and that's cool. But that T is surrounded by a C and an O, which in most cases has a fiduciary responsibility to the organization.
\n\nBut also, first and foremost, you are a first-class member of the C-suite. And so my book talks about this, but you are there to join in with the executive leadership team and to help that team towards success. And so what that looks like for me is you are wrestling on what the targets are for the company. You participate fully in that. You then allocate a budget. In other words, you allocate cost towards how you can achieve those revenue goals. And then, with that budget as CTO, you then are budgeting towards a team that you believe can get the technology implemented that will ultimately produce the revenue. So think about revenue target, technology budget, technology people.
\n\nNow, these are all in the C-suite. These are just entries on a P&L. These are entries on the balance sheet. These are things that ultimately are abstracted towards company growth and company success. So with that, the CTO then turns into someone who wrestles with the tech teams, like, what are we going to implement? What ideas are consistent with our company principles and our vision? What does innovation look like? How do we inspire people to join our organization to do so? That, to me, is a fundamental role for the CTO, to inspire people to join the organization but also to be someone who implements and ideates on that journey.
\n\nSo I think a CTO succeeds when there is revenue growth, and that is due to budget being spent in an effective way to attract amazing people to ultimately build technology that is sustainable that then feeds into tech revenue that ultimately helps the company achieve its goals.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. Yeah, I like that you said sustainable and the importance of people and how that relates to keeping your technology sustainable. And I'm curious if you could share more about what practices a CTO could bring to a new organization to facilitate that inspiration and to really motivate technology teams and people to work together and build these systems.
\n\nETIENNE: I think that speaks to my earlier answer, which is the investment in people and investment in understanding the systems that exist. So whether you are a CTO, that is the first time a company ever scales and grows into having that role being created, which, you know, most tech startups these days will have the role of CTO allocated and available. The important thing to understand for you as someone stepping into that role is that your teams have a construct. They have an impression. They have an image, either of your predecessor at that company or their experiences with leadership and technology at their previous companies.
\n\nAnd I think it's extremely important to understand how you're being seen as a leader in the company and as CTO and that that vision of what people have of you is not necessarily based on your actions, your reputation, your good mornings in the mornings and your good evenings in the evenings. It really is based on people's constructs about what their experience has been of a CTO in their career, or like I said, the previous CTO, your predecessor.
\n\nAnd so I think that it's critical as you step into this role that you take the time to bring that change to show people your ways, to show people what is important to you in a way that's not a bull in a china shop. But when you break stuff, and you come in, and you announce your presence, and you assert the new way of doing things, I think that that is met with suspicion and concern most of the time.
\n\nAnd so I think if you can show people in the little things that you care about them, you're listening to them, you're curious about the system they're operating inside of, I think that that sets you up to then come in with the big ideas later on. But again, the emphasis being later on, past the 100 days. I talk about this in the book where introducing your tech strategy, introducing your way of doing things really comes a lot later in the 100 days than is maybe the preconceived notion.
\n\nVICTORIA: And you also mentioned a few times what the CTO should be doing and a lot of great questions that you ask, like, what does success look like? How do we build this together? And finding ways to maybe generate more ideas than just what you would come up with with your team, you're more powerful.
\n\nETIENNE: Yes. And I think tag teaming on to that is a lot of times...and this is actually really a confounding thing that I've come across, which is the C-suite won't always understand what the role of CTO actually is. And teams won't always fully understand what the role of CTO is. When you talk about a CMO, or a CRO, or a CFO, I think you can generally understand what they're supposed to be doing. That isn't always clear for the CTO.
\n\nAnd it's amazing how many times I have gotten the question, well, we knew we needed someone to help us with the tech, but we don't really know what it is that you do, or what you should be doing, or what success looks like. I think not making the assumption that people know what you're there to do is a form of showing some respect and humility.
\n\nAnd this is why always when I'm in executive meetings, when I'm in stand-ups, or I'm in some sort of an architecture meeting, I will almost without fail I will say, "As the role of CTO, this is what I bring to the meeting," or "This is what the role of CTO would be looking for as an outcome of this conversation." Or "As the role of CTO, it is my job to ensure that our development capacity increases," to just never assume that people know what it is that you're there to do but to show them, I think, the respect and the courtesy that the role of CTO has a certain place in whatever meeting or brainstorm session is going on.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think that makes sense, too, because I could see, you know, especially you mentioned with people who maybe have had past experiences with CTOs that are not the most positive. If you bring up an idea in a meeting, everyone thinks, well, that's the solution. That's what the CTO wants. And it might not. Everyone might not feel comfortable, like, without you caveating; this is why I'm bringing this up. You know, we're here to brainstorm and not for me to just tell you what to do. [laughs]
\n\nETIENNE: Yes, yes. And that's why I will often...honestly, this might be a real tip for people listening. But I will actively divorce who I am from the role that I'm in. And it enables me to have difficult conversations. It enables me to assert leadership without dominance. And that is to just say, "Hey, Sandra, in my role as CTO, this is what I am looking for in your growth or in your career path." Versus, "Hey, Sandra, I want you to..." or "I need you to..."
\n\nAnd I think the subtle difference there is to just assure someone that you're operating in a capacity that the company expects from you versus somehow having your identity wrapped in the outcome of a conversation. And that really has been a very powerful tool for me as I integrate into new companies or as I need to navigate tricky conversations.
\n\nVICTORIA: I appreciate you sharing that. I think hopefully that will be a great point for someone who's maybe struggling with something similar at this time. And maybe there are other common questions or themes that come up when you're talking to all these CTOs in organizations that you can share.
\n\nETIENNE: By the way, if your name is Sandra and you're listening to this conversation, I totally made up the name Sandra, so I'm not referring to you, Sandra.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs]
\n\nETIENNE: Okay. I think an interesting thing that I've noticed is given the stage of my company, have I addressed all the things that I need to by now? And I think that is such an indication of the times that we live in. Technology is always changing. Expectations are always changing. Clearly, if you're in a technology innovation company, things are rapidly changing. It's funny because some things just stay the same, i.e., people problems and all that.
\n\nBut as far as technology landscape goes, I think that there is a little bit of a daunting feeling that, hey, I'm CTO in this company, but I don't know if I am where I need to be at compared to what other successful companies let's say, for instance, a series A company is doing. And as CTO, am I applying, am I showing up in the way that great CTOs of other series A companies are showing up? And so I would say that's problem number one is, am I operating at the level that I should be that my company is expecting of me? That's a real challenge that CTOs have.
\n\nAnd I think level-setting expectations communicating where we should be at is a skill that I think is missing from a lot of people who are in that role. And I think it's because we get to the roles of CTO by being people who rapidly solve problems or speedily deliver on technology. And we start associating speed with being good at our jobs, and I really think that that is wrong; that is just wrong. When you're in an executive role, patience and spending the extra day or the extra week fighting for the extra month, I think, is actually a very important role that the CTO plays in the C-suite.
\n\nAnd so if you have an underdeveloped sense of your own leadership style, an underdeveloped sense of your being and your essence and what it is you actually bring to the table, I think you end up just being sort of a knee-jerk tech person that just implements what other people want you to so that you could be valued for what it is that you do. Versus having that solid executive presence inside of a company that really influences and can shape the vision of the organization.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I think that's super interesting how common that question is. And I wonder if it gets to sometimes creating a shared understanding between the executive team about the technology and why certain things are important or not important. I wonder if you could talk about any maybe major trends that you see executive teams trying to take advantage of that are either positive or negative.
\n\nETIENNE: The thing I've seen the most, which has had the greatest impact on, I think, executive teams, at least from my vantage point, is the desire to adopt some sort of business playbook or a business operating system. I think one of the most popular ones is the EOS model, Entrepreneurs Operating System. Gino Wickman, I think, wrote the book "Traction." And so it's caused a big trend with companies to try and streamline their operations by following the EOS model. And I do think that that might be the wrong solution to the right problem for many companies.
\n\nWhat I mean by that is, again, we're talking about blueprints. What works for one company isn't necessarily going to work for the next company. The way you set goals, the way you set your so-called rocks, or the way you set your quarterly goals, or even working by quarter if you think about a quarter, it's such an interesting...it's really a Wall Street concept. It's three months. It's really so arbitrary.
\n\nAnd I think that I see C-suites trying to adopt a business operating system that other companies are doing without really the necessary work being done as to, hey, what compels us through our culture, who we are, how we like to do things, what it is that works for us? And I will see some C-suites sort of spin their wheels a little bit on trying to adopt other systems when really all it takes is for them to do their own work to see what is the value stream? What does it look like inside of their company?
\n\nI actually encourage, and I think I talk about this in this book; in days 60 to 70, I talk about learning to improvise. And I think this is where I look to the CTO to use their spidey senses and their logical deduction skills, their deconstruction skills to observe what is actually happening inside of the C-suite and to facilitate conversations around what is it that people need? How do we improvise on systems that we already have? Or how do we deal with missed expectations? And I do think that the CTO can play a wonderful role inside of the C-suite to facilitate those conversations.
\n\nBut I see inside of C-suites, the role of CTO being relegated to the IT person or just the tech person. And I think that victimization goes both ways. But the C-suite, where the CTO is actually facilitating hard conversations and able to do the decomposition of a complex system or the deconstruction of an often repeated problem or challenge that the company is experiencing, could really push the C-suite into a different track of thinking that could be super beneficial to unblocking some stodgy issues they've been facing.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. And it reminds me of trying to adopt agile right when it was first becoming popular and committing so hard to a framework that you don't look at what works for your team [laughs] and works for the specific technology and tools that you have. So it makes sense to me that the CTO could bring an experience like that into applying frameworks to how the business operates.
\n\nETIENNE: Absolutely. And I think that's really when dogmatism could be your enemy. And, again, CTO joins a company, knows a certain set of skills in order to accomplish things, dogmatically tries to apply that because they are the so-called expert. And then they fail, or they're unhappy, or there's misunderstanding because we had these high expectations for you. Your interviewing was brilliant, and you said all the right things. But then, when you walked into the organization, your desire for acceptance and delivering value trumps your opportunity to be the new person and be curious about what is actually happening and what is actually going on.
\n\nThis should be so obvious, but when you walk into a C-suite, there are obviously existing relationships between all the different members of the C-suite. And I advocate for being a student of those relationships. Understand the history that exists between the CEO and the CFO. And these could be very great newbie conversations to have with these various members of the C-suite. "Hey, so when did you join the company? Hey, why did you join the company? Hey, wait, which company did you come from? What drew you to this company? Where did you used to live? Why did you move?"
\n\nI think these are such incredible nodes in a complex relational hierarchy that can give you some very sound ideas as to, oh, well, why does the CEO constantly challenge what the COO is saying? Or why does the COO seem surpassed all the time? You, as CTO you, would do very well. I mean, as any C-suite member, any leader would do well to seek some insight and perception into what is going on for people.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense, right? If you're going to have influence, you have to kind of understand what are all the connections and energy that's going around in the team?
\n\nETIENNE: Absolutely.
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\n\nVICTORIA: And maybe you can tell me more about 7CTOs and what that community can mean for someone who's growing in this role.
\n\nETIENNE: 7CTOs, like I said earlier, I founded it...I almost said 100 days ago. I founded it ten years ago. And it was as I mentioned, the genesis of the story, which is important, is I co-founded a company with two people. I wrote the first lines of code for our product. In fact, I wrote the whole version 1 myself. And as the company grew and as the company grew beyond what it was that the three of us were comfortable with, I noticed that my CEO joined an organization a peer group organization. My COO joined a peer group organization. And I just saw this transformation in them that I really admired.
\n\nI was actually really envious when they were able to start taking what they've learned from their peer groups and bring them into our company to start operating more efficiently. And so, it was just natural that I would look for something for CTOs, and I couldn't find anything. I actually tried to join sort of more generic business leadership groups like Vestige or EO even. And I found that I wasn't really with my people. I wanted to feel like I was with the geeks who could talk all day about tech and development and probably watch the same movies and read the same books or inspired or laugh at the same jokes.
\n\nI wanted to find my people who were facing the same problems and challenges that I was, i.e., scaling companies beyond the things that we knew, beyond the things that we were comfortable with. And I wanted to have deep conversations with those people. So I wanted to be able to share my insecurities or the politics that I was facing, or the anger that I was feeling, or not feeling seen or heard. I wanted to have deep, meaningful conversations with my true peers in a regular meeting setup that was confidential and fun. And I couldn't find that.
\n\nSo I decided to host a few meetups. My first meetup was actually in Old Town, San Diego, at my buddy's restaurant. And I hosted the first 10 or 12 CTOs and realized that people had a real need for that kind of interaction. And I then ended up hosting 30 different meetings in three different cities. And everywhere I went, there was the same expression that people wanted what I wanted.
\n\nAnd then I tried to host a few more meaningful, smaller conversations and people...quite frankly, it was a disaster. I don't think it was the right container for people to respect each other and have empathy for each other's decisions. And instead, it just became a pissing contest for who made the right decision about what situation. And that's when I realized I'm not going to be able to create a meaningful conversation without some rules. And those rules I put in place, i.e., you must attend the meetings. You need to have some skin in the game. And that's how 7CTOs was born.
\n\nAnd to this day, it is a vetted peer group organization. We know we have some skin in the game. There's a membership fee. There's a time commitment. And there is a commitment to yourself to grow, to have empathy, to show up for your people, to be accountable to your people, to learn the stuff that you like to learn about and to learn the stuff that you don't want to learn about. And that is where we are today. So anybody who's listening to this who has a CTO who feels cold and lonely, come join us.
\n\nVICTORIA: I appreciate the hustle, that many meetups in that many cities. I would have gotten tired. [laughs] Like, that's too much. But it seems like there was a demand, and it created something that's really meaningful for people.
\n\nETIENNE: Yes. And I was surprised. So from San Diego, I went to Austin. And then, I also started investing in Portland. And I was really amazed how we were in different cities, but each tech scene had this group of people called CTOs who they knew how to talk about technology, and they knew how to geek out of trends and all that. But they were lacking solely in team composition, budget management, C-suite executive presence, handling disagreements with the CEO, maybe knowing when to leave, how to find new positions, to carefully consider the arc of their own careers, to just manage your LinkedIn page. I mean, it was really shocking in the early 2010s how much of that was going on.
\n\nI will say I was reluctant to actually start something. You know, 7CTOs is very much a membership organization filled with people. Not the most intuitive move for me. I thought I would be building more and more and more tech companies, SaaS products. I do that as an interim or a fractional CTO now, but I don't have my own startup right now in the tech space. But I love 7CTOs.
\n\nWe have a new CEO. Her name is Beth Rehberg. We have our head of coaching. Her name is Brittany Cotton. And we have about 200-plus companies that have enrolled their CTOs in our organization. And the journey is remarkable, truly a remarkable journey to see how people are just blossoming into the full essence and the full impact that they can have in other companies.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's wonderful. And I wonder, if you could go back in time and give yourself some advice back when you started it knowing what you know now, what advice would you tell yourself?
\n\nETIENNE: I grossly underestimated how many White guys I would be attracting. I think about three or four years into the organization; it took someone else to bring it to my attention that there were no women. There were no underrepresented minorities in this group. And so I think from day one, I would have made that a key focal point for myself to really invest in the diversity of the group.
\n\nWe've come a very long way. Our numbers are growing pretty quickly in terms of women joining us and people from various communities joining us. I think that's actually becoming a hallmark of 7CTOs. And I'm very proud of it today. But, boy, back in the day, I would have made that a key prime directive.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, that's a really honest take, and I appreciate you offering that to us. And I think that's an important thing to focus on always going forward. [laughs] But I like that, and now it's become a focus for you and creating that space that, you know, hindsight is 2020. [laughs] Well, great. Is there anything else that you'd like to leave as a takeaway for our listeners?
\n\nETIENNE: No. I think, of course, I would love some book purchases. Apparently, the first couple of weeks are vital for any new book. So please go over to Amazon and get "CTO Excellence." I also have a website: ctoexcellence.com. So really, anybody who has an inclination towards leadership in the tech space, I'm super passionate about those people. The opportunity to influence in a creative and confident way is just limitless. And I want to help unearth that for fledgling leaders, existing leaders, some leaders who might feel stuck.
\n\nPlease reach out to me. I'd love to get you connected, either through 7CTOs or even I do some coaching as well. So I consider it my life's mission to expand this ecosystem because so many people are impacted by the way we show up. And there's a great opportunity as CTOs to be transformational in our organizations. And this is what I exist to do.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, thank you so much for joining us today. And I really appreciate you sharing what you did, and I enjoyed our conversation.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Etienne de Bruin.
Sponsored By:
Dominic Holt is CEO of harpoon, a drag-and-drop Kubernetes tool for deploying any software in seconds.
\n\nVictoria talks to Dominic about commoditizing DevOps as a capability, coming up with the idea for drag and drop just thinking through how he could do these things in a visual and intuitive way, and using Kubernetes as a base for Harpoon.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Dominic Holt, CEO of harpoon, a drag-and-drop Kubernetes tool for deploying any software in seconds. Dominic, thank you for joining me.
\n\nDOMINIC: Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me, Victoria.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, I'm really excited to talk all about what Kubernetes is. And I have Joe Ferris, the CTO of thoughtbot, here with me as well to help me in that process.
\n\nJOE: Hello.
\n\nVICTORIA: Excellent. Okay, so, Dominic, why don't you just tell me how it all got started? What led you to start harpoon?
\n\nDOMINIC: I got into the DevOps space fairly early. It was, I don't know, probably 2012 timeframe, which sounds like not that long ago. But, I mean, DevOps is also still a baby. So I have a software background. And I was starting to figure out how to do the continuous; I guess, automated way of standing up cloud infrastructure for Lockheed Martin at the time because people didn't know how to do that. There weren't a lot of tools available, and nobody knew what DevOps was. And if you said it to somebody, they would have slapped you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Aggressive. [laughs]
\n\nDOMINIC: [laughs] Maybe not, maybe not. Maybe they'd be nicer about it. But anyway, nobody knew what DevOps was because it wasn't coined yet. And I started realizing that this was not some system administration voodoo. It was just common sense from a software development standpoint. And I ended up leaving Lockheed shortly thereafter and going and working for a small business here in San Diego. And I said, I have no idea what any of this stuff is, but we're going to do it because, in a few years, everybody's going to be doing it because it's common sense. So we did.
\n\nWe grew quite a large practice in consulting and DevOps, among other things. And predominantly, I was working with the U.S. Navy at the time, and they needed a standardized way to deploy software to aircraft carriers and destroyers, the ships out there in the ocean. And so, I came up with a design for them that used Kubernetes. And we built a pipeline, a CI/CD pipeline, to automatically deploy software from the cloud to Navy ships out in the ocean on top of Kubernetes. And everything worked great. And it was there, and we tested it.
\n\nBut at the end of the day, handing over the maintenance, what we call day two ops, proved to be troubling. And it never quite made it onto the ships in the way that we wanted. So after that, I did a bunch of consulting with other groups in the Navy, and the Air Force, and Space Force, and all kinds of different groups across the government. And I also started consulting in commercial, fortune 500, startups, everything.
\n\nAnd I just saw that this problem was really pervasive, handling the day two operations. You get everything up and running, but then maintaining it after that was just complicated for people because all of the DevOps implementations are snowflakes. So if you go from Company A to Company B, they look nothing alike. And they may have a lot to do with somebody named Jim or Frank or Bob and how they thought was the best way to do it.
\n\nAnd so, running a DevOps consultancy myself, I just knew how hard it was to find the talent, and how expensive they were, and how hard it was to keep them because everyone else was trying to hire my talent all the time. And I just thought to myself, all of this is completely untenable. Somebody is going to commoditize DevOps as a capability. And what would that look like?
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. I'm familiar with the demand for people who know how to build the infrastructure and systems for deploying and running software. [laughs] And I like how you first talked about DevOps, just it being common sense. And I remember feeling that way when I went to my first DevOps DC meetup. I was like, oh, this is how you're supposed to build teams and organizations in a way to run things efficiently and apply those principles from building software to managing your infrastructure.
\n\nDOMINIC: Yeah. Well, I had lived the life of an enterprise software developer for quite a while before then. And I had gone through that whole process they talk about in all of DevOps bibles about why it is we're doing this, where the software development team would have their nice, fancy dev laptops. And the operations team with the pagers or whatever would be the ones managing the servers. And the software developers were never really sure exactly how it was going to work in production, but were like; I'm just going to throw it over the fence and see what the ops people do.
\n\nAnd inevitably, the ops people would call us very angrily, and they would say, "Your software doesn't work." And then, of course, we would say that the ops people are all crazy because it works just fine here on my laptop, and they just don't know what they're doing. And, I mean, we would just fight back and forth about this for six months until somebody figured out that we were running the wrong version of some dependency in the software on the ops side, and that's why it didn't work. So that process is just crazy, and nobody in their right mind would want to go through it if they could avoid it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. I'm sure Joe has had some stories from his time at thoughtbot.
\n\nJOE: Yeah, certainly. I was interested by what you said about working with...I think it was Frank, and Ted, and Bob. I've definitely worked with all those people in their own snowflakes. And one of the things that drew me to Kubernetes is that it was an attempt to standardize at least some of the approaches or at least provide anchor points for things like how you might implement networking, and routing, and so on.
\n\nI'm interested to hear, you know, for a drag-and-drop solution, even though Kubernetes was meant to standardize a lot of things, there are a lot of different Kubernetes distributions. And I think there are still a lot of Kubernetes snowflakes. I'm curious how you manage to tackle that problem with a drag-and-drop solution to hit the different Kubernetes distributions out there.
\n\nDOMINIC: Yeah, I mean, I think you nailed it, Joe. Standing up Kubernetes is a little bit complicated still these days. It's been made a lot easier by a lot of different companies, and products, and open-source software, and things like that. And so I see a lot of people getting up basic Kubernetes clusters these days. But then you look at companies like ARMO that are doing compliance scans and security scans on Kubernetes clusters, and they're making the claim that 100% of the Kubernetes clusters they scan are non-compliant [laughs] and have security issues.
\n\nAnd so that just goes to show you all of the things that one has to know to be successful just to stand up a cluster in the first place. And even when I...like for a client or something, over the years, if I was standing up a Kubernetes cluster and a lot of it was automated, you know, we used Terraform and Ansible, and all the other best practices under the hood. A lot of the response I got back when we handed over a cluster to a client was, "Okay, now what?"
\n\nThere are still a lot of things you have to learn to maintain that cluster, keep it up to date, upgrade the underlying components of the cluster, deploy the software, configure the software, all those things. And can you learn these things? Absolutely. Like, they're not rocket science, but they're complicated. And it is a commitment that you have to make as an individual if you're going to become proficient in all of these things and managing your own cluster.
\n\nAnd so we were just...we had done this so many times at different companies I had worked with, for different clients, and seeing how all of the different pieces work together and where clients were having problems and what really hung people up. And so I just started thinking to myself, how would you make that easier? How would you make that more available to the pizza guy or an 18-year-old with no formal training that's on a ship in the ocean? And that's why I came up with the idea for drag and drop, just thinking through how can I do these things in a visual way that is going to be intuitive for people?
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, I have, obviously, a very thorough understanding of Kubernetes, [laughs] just kidding. But maybe explain a little bit more about to a founder why should they invest in this type of approach when they're building products?
\n\nDOMINIC: So I think that's a great question. What I find these days is DevOps is almost a requirement to do business these days in some sort of nimble way. So you have to...whether you're a large enterprise or you're a garage startup, you need to be able to change your software to market forces, to stuff that's happening in the news, to your customers don't like something. So you want to change it to something else quickly or pivot because if something happens, you can get your day in the sun, or you can capitalize on something that's happening.
\n\nAnd so the difficulty is I think a lot of people have an impression that DevOps scripts are sort of like a build once and forget type of thing, and it'll just work thereafter. But it's actually software, and I like to think of software as living organisms. You have to take care of them like they're people, almost because if you don't, they'll become brittle and unhealthy over time. If you have a child, you have to feed them probably multiple times a day, brush their teeth. You got to tuck them in at night. You have to be nice to them. You have to do all the things that you would do with a child.
\n\nBut with software as well, if you just take the quick route, and quick fix things, and hack, and take shortcuts, eventually, you're going to have a very unhealthy child on your hands, and they're going to have behavior problems. At the end of the day, you have all these DevOps scripts, and they can be quite complex together. And you have to take care of them like they're your own child.
\n\nAnd the problem is you're also taking care of your software products like it's your child. And so now you're taking care of two children. And as somebody that has two children, I can tell you that things become much more complicated when two children are having behavioral problems than just one. And you're at the store, and it's very embarrassing.
\n\nSo I guess the point is that harpoon is a capability that can basically take care of your second child for you, which is your DevOps deployments. And then you can just focus on the one child that you, I mean, this is turning into a terrible analogy at this point. [laughter] But you should love all of your children equally. But, in this case, you're looking to take care of your products and get it out there, and harpoon is something that can take care of your DevOps software for you.
\n\nVICTORIA: I agree. I think when your software or children are problematic, it's more than just embarrassing sometimes. It can create a lot of financial and legal liability as well. From your research, when you're building this product and, like, who's going to be interested in buying this thing, is that something that people are concerned about?
\n\nDOMINIC: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the fact that we can stand up your cluster for you, stand up all of your cloud infrastructure for you, and then dynamically generate all of the configuration as code as well, and how to open those things securely up to the network and control everything such that you're not going to accidentally do something that's really bad, can definitely help out a lot of people.
\n\nThe interest has been really overwhelming from so many different groups and organizations. We have people that are interested in the Department of Defense in both the U.S. and other countries. We have fortune 500 companies that see this as a pathway to accelerate digital transformation for legacy applications or even to use it as a sandbox, so people aren't bugging Frank, and Joe, and Bob, who run the Kubernetes clusters in production.
\n\nWe have startups who see it just as a way to skip over the whole DevOps thing and work on getting a product-market fit so that they have a production environment that just works out of the box. So it's been really interesting seeing all the different use cases people are using harpoon for and how it's helped them in some way get to some and realize some goal that they have.
\n\nJOE: I'm curious if it's been a challenge as somebody managing the underlying infrastructure as sort of a plug-and-play thing. One experience I've had working more on the operations side of DevOps is that everything becomes your problem. Like, if the server misbehaves, if there's a database crash, whatever, certainly, that's your problem. But also, if the application is murdering your database, that becomes your problem. And it's really an application problem. But it surfaces visibly in the infrastructure when the CPU spikes and it stops responding to requests. And so, how do you navigate that agreement with your users? How do you balance what's your responsibility versus theirs to not kill the cluster?
\n\nDOMINIC: One thing that's great about Kubernetes and why it's a great base for our product is that Kubernetes is really good at keeping things running. Certainly, there are catastrophic things that can happen, like an entire region of EC2 and Amazon Web Services goes down. And that is, obviously, if you have your clusters only running in that particular region, you're going to have a bad day.
\n\nSo there are things beyond our control. I mean, those things are also covered by the service-level agreement, the SLA with AWS, since you're using your own AWS account when you're utilizing harpoon. So it's like a hybrid SaaS where we deploy everything into your account, and you own it. And you can adjust those infrastructure things on your own as you'd like. So from that standpoint, you're kind of covered with your agreement with AWS as an example of a cloud service provider.
\n\nAnd certainly, Kubernetes also kind of knows what to do in some of those instances where you have a container that is murdering everything. In a lot of cases, it can be configured to, you know, just die or go into a CrashLoopBackOff or something if it's just taking up all your resources in the cluster versus destroying your entire cluster in a great fireworks display. So we put some of those protections into the platform as well.
\n\nBut yeah, to your point, being an ops person is a difficult job because we're usually the ones [laughs] that get blamed for everything when something bad happens, even though sometimes it's the software team's fault or sometimes it's even just the infrastructure you're built on. Occasionally, AWS services and Google Cloud and Azure services do go down, and things happen.
\n\nWe've had instances, even during harpoon development, where we're testing harpoon late at night on AWS, and sometimes AWS does wonky things at night that people don't realize. It's not completely perfect capability. And we're like, oh, why does it only happen at 11:58 on Tuesdays? Oh, because AWS updates their servers during that time, and it slows down everything.
\n\nIt's still good to understand all the underlying components and how they work, and that could certainly help you regardless of if you use harpoon or not. But ultimately, we're just trying to make it easier for people. They can spend less time focusing on those things. We can help them with a lot of those problems that might occur, and they can focus on their software.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. I think that's...it's interesting to me to always hear about all the different challenges in managing operations of software. So I like that you're working on this space. It's clearly a space that needs more innovation, you know, we're working on it here at thoughtbot as well. Has there been anything in your, like, any theory that you had going into your initial research that when you talked to customers surprised you and caused you to change your direction?
\n\nDOMINIC: Yeah. I mean, we run the gamut there. So we did a lot of early customer discovery to try to figure out who might be interested in this product. And so, our first thought was that startups would be the most interested in this product because they're building something new. They just want to get it out there. They want to build their MVP, and they just want to throw it on the internet and get it rolling and not have to worry about whether the software is up and down while they're doing a bunch of sales calls. Because really, during the MVP phase, if you're doing lean startup-style company development, then you really just want to be selling. You want to always be selling.
\n\nAnd so we thought it would just be a no-brainer for startups. And we talked to a lot of startups, and some startups for sure thought it was valuable. But a lot of them were like, "Yeah, that's cool, but we don't care about DevOps. [chuckles] We don't care about anything. Like, I'll run it on my laptop if I have to. The only thing I care about is finding product-market fit and getting that first sale." And so, at least as far as the very first customers that we were looking for, they weren't the best fit.
\n\nAnd then we went and talked to a bunch of mid-market companies because we just decided to go up to the next logical level. And so mid-market companies were very interested because a lot of them were starting to eyeball Kubernetes and maybe sort of migrate some of their capabilities over there. Maybe they had a little bit of ability to be a bit nimble, in that sense, versus some of the enterprise customers. And so they were very interested in it. But a lot of them were very risk averse, like, go find a bunch of enterprise customers that will buy it, and then we'll buy it. And so then we went to talk to the enterprise customers.
\n\nAnd that was sort of like an eye-opening time for us because the enterprise customers just got it. They were like, "Yeah, I'm trying to migrate legacy capabilities we built 10 or 15 years ago to the cloud. We're trying to containerize everything and refactor our existing software. I got to redesign the user interface that was built ten years ago." And if somebody's got a DevOps easy button, then sign me up. I would like to participate because I can't spell Kubernetes yet, but I definitely know what it is, and I want to use it.
\n\nSo working with the enterprise customers was really great for us because it showed us what the appetite was in the market and who was going to immediately benefit from it. And then, ultimately, that rolls down to the mid-market companies. And maybe later-stage startups as well are starting to find a lot of value in the platform from, you know, have maybe started finding some product-market fit and care a little bit about whether people can access my software and it's maintainable and available. And so we can definitely help with that.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's super interesting, and it aligns with my experience as well, coming from consulting companies and the federal government who are working on digital services, and DevOps, and agile, and all of those transformational activities. And so it's been five years, it looks like since you started harpoon. What advice would you give to yourself if you could travel back in time when you were first starting the project?
\n\nDOMINIC: So I made lots of mistakes along the way. I'll inevitably make more. But when I first started building this thing, I wasn't even sure how it was going to work. Kubernetes can be a bit of a fickle beast, and it wasn't really built to have a drag-and-drop UI on top of it. And so there are lots of things that could go wrong, trust me, [laughs] I learned them. But building an initial prototype, like, the very base of can the capability work at all, came together pretty quickly. It was maybe three or four months of development during my nights and weekends. And building an enterprise scalable product took quite a bit longer.
\n\nBut once I had an initial capability, I was very excited because, again, I didn't even know if this was possible, certainly not five or six years ago. So I didn't even really want to raise a round or make money. I do know how venture capital works. So it wasn't even my expectation that people would want to give me money because all I had was an MVP and no product-market fit. And I had just thrown it together in three or four months. But I was just excited about it.
\n\nI'm a software developer at heart, and technology excites me. And solving problems is kind of what gets me up in the morning. So I just called all the people I knew, a bunch of VCs, other people, and they're like, "Yeah, I would like to see that. Let's set up a time." And so I think maybe they interpreted that as, like, I want to do a pitch to you for money. [laughs] And I just proceeded to go to, like, this dog and pony show of showing a bunch of people this thing I built, and I thought they would just understand it and get what I was doing.
\n\nAnd I just proceeded to get my ass handed to me over and over and over again. Like, "This isn't that great of a product. How much money are you making?" Blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, "No, no, you don't get it. I just started. It's just a prototype at this stage. It's not even a finished product." And they're like, "Well, you're definitely going to fail. [laughter] You're wasting your time. What are you even doing here?"
\n\nAnd so that was...I like to think that I have thick skin, but that's hard to hear as an entrepreneur; just people don't get your vision. They don't understand what it is you're building and why it's going to be valuable to people. And it could be a long time before you get to a point where people can even understand what it is you're doing, and you just have to sort of stay the course and, I mean, I did. I went around on some rock somewhere and hung out in a tent on an island for a while. I just kept going.
\n\nAnd you just got to pour all your heart and soul, and effort into building a product if you want to make it exist out there in the world. And a lot of people are not going to get it, but as long as you believe in it and you keep pushing, then maybe someday they will get it. For the first year after we had a working enterprise-grade product, we kind of did a soft launch. And we had a small set of customers. We had 8 to 10 people that were sort of testing it out and using it, things like that.
\n\nWe kind of went, you know, more gangbusters launch at the end of last year, and it was crazy. And then...what? I don't know, maybe 60 days since we did a more serious launch. And we have gone from our ten soft users to 2,000 users.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow. Well, that's great growth. And it sounds exciting that you have your team in place now. You're able to set yourself up for growth.
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\n\nVICTORIA: So now that you're getting more established, you're getting more customers, you have a team supporting you on the project; what parts of the DevOps culture do you feel like are really important to making a team that will continue to grow?
\n\nDOMINIC: I've been an individual contributor for a long period of time. I was a first-level manager and managed people. At a very granular personal level, I've been a director, and a VP, and a CTO at a bunch of different places. And so all of those different roles and different companies that I've worked at have taught me a lot about people, and teams, and culture, and certainly about hiring.
\n\nI think hiring is the absolute most important thing you can do in a company, and definitively in a software company. Because there are just certain people that are going to mesh well with your culture, and the people that do and that are driven and passionate about what they do, they're just going to drive your company forward. And so I just spend a lot of my time when we need to grow as a company, which happens here and there, really focusing on who is going to be the best next person to bring on to the company.
\n\nAnd usually, I'm thinking about this far in advance because whenever we do need that person, I don't want to have to start thinking about it. I want to just know, like, it is Frank, it is Bob, it is Jamey, or Alex, or whoever else. Because it is...at a personal level, there has to be people who are very aligned with your visions, and your values, and your culture, and they care and are going to push the company forward.
\n\nAnd if you're just hiring people with a quick coding interview and a 30-minute culture fit session, you're going to make a lot of hiring mistakes. You're going to find people who are just looking for a nine-to-five or things like that, and, I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. But in a startup especially, you really need people who buy into the vision and who are going to push the thing forward.
\n\nAnd I'm looking for people who just care, like; they have an ownership mentality. Maybe in a different lifetime or a different part of their career, they'd be an entrepreneur at their own company. But you just give them stuff, and they're like, cool, this is mine. I'm going to take care of this. It's now my child. I will make sure that it grows up and it is healthy and goes to a good university. Those are the type of people that you want in your company, people that you would trust with your children. So those are the criteria for working at harpoon, I guess.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that's good. So what does success look like in the next six months or even beyond the next five years?
\n\nDOMINIC: I think it's still very early market for us. Certainly, we have an explosive growth of users using the platform, and that's really heartening to see. That's really awesome that people want to use the thing that you built. But again, there are so many companies out there and organizations that are still not even doing DevOps. They're just doing manual deployments, maintaining clusters manually, not using containers or Kubernetes. Not to say that you have to use these things and that they're a panacea, and they work in every sense because they don't.
\n\nBut obviously, there's been a major shift in the industry towards containers and container orchestration like Kubernetes. Even some of the serverless platforms that people like to use are actually backed by Kubernetes, so you see a major shift in that direction. But there are still so many different companies and organizations that, again, are still locked into legacy ways of doing things and manually doing things.
\n\nThere are companies that are trying to get their products off the ground, and they're looking for faster and easier, and cheaper ways to do that. And I think that's what's really exciting about harpoon is we can help these companies. We can help them be more successful. We can help them migrate to things that are more modern and agile. We can help them get their product off the ground faster or more reliably. And so that's kind of what excites me.
\n\nBut you know what? We do a lot of demos, you know, sales demos and things like that. And, really, we don't have PowerPoints. We're just like, cool, this is the app, and this is how you use it. And it is so simplistic to use, even though Kubernetes is quite complicated, that the demo goes pretty quick. We're talking five, six minutes if there are not a lot of questions. And we always get exactly the same response, whether somebody is not super familiar with Kubernetes or they are familiar with Kubernetes, and they've set up their own cluster. It's almost always, "Wow," and then a pause, and then "But how do I know it works?" [laughs]
\n\nSo there's going be a lot of work for us in educating people out there that there is an easier way to do DevOps now, that you can do drag and drop DevOps and dynamically generate all of your scripts and configuration, and open up networks, and deploy load balancers, and all the other things that you would need to do with Kubernetes, literally in a few minutes just dragging and dropping things. So there's going to be a lot of education that just goes into saying, "Hey, there's a new market, and this is what it is. And this is how it compares to the manual processes people are using out there. Here's how it compares to some of the other tools that are more incremental in nature."
\n\nAnd trust, you know, over time, people are going to have to use the platform and see that it works and talk to other people and be like, yeah, I deployed my software on harpoon, and nothing terrible happened. Demons didn't come out of the walls, and my software kept running, and no meteors crashed in my house. So it's just going to take some time for us to really grow and build the education around that market to show that it's possible and that it exists, and it can be an option for you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. I used to do a lot of intro to DevOps talks with Women Who Code and DevOps DC. And I would describe Kubernetes as a way to keep your kubes neat, and your kube is where your software lives. It's a little house that keeps the doors locked and things like that. Do you have another way to kind of explain what is Kubernetes? Like, how do you kind of even just get people started on what DevOps is?
\n\nDOMINIC: I like to usually use the cattle story. [laughs] So, in DevOps, they have these concepts of immutable infrastructure or immutable architecture. And so when you have virtual machines, which is what people have been running on for quite a while, certainly some people still run on bare metal servers, but pretty much everybody's got on board with virtualization at this point, and so most software these days is at least running on virtual machines. And so the difficulty with virtual machines is, I mean, there's nothing wrong with them, but they're kind of like pets. They exist for long periods of time. They have what we call state drift, and that's just the changing of the data or the state of the virtual machine over time.
\n\nAnd even if I were to kill off that virtual machine and start another one, it wouldn't be exactly the same one. It wouldn't be, you know, fluffy. It would be a clone of fluffy. And maybe it wouldn't have the same personality, and it wouldn't do exactly the same things. And sometimes that might be good; maybe fluffy was a terrible dog. But in other cases, you're like, oh crap, I needed that snowflake feature that Bob built three years ago. And Bob has been hit by a train, so people can't ask Bob anymore.
\n\nAnd so what then really happens at these organizations is when the virtual machines start acting up, they don't kill them. They take them to the vet. They take care of them. They pet them. They tell them they're a good boy. And you have entire enterprises that are super dependent on these virtual machines staying alive. And so that's no way to run your business. And so that's one of the reasons why people started switching over to containers because the best practices in containers is to build software that's immutable.
\n\nSo if you destroy or kill one of your containers, you can start another one. And it should work exactly the same as before, and that's because when you build your containers, you can't change them unless you rebuild them. I mean, there are ways to do it, but people will wave their finger angrily at you if you try to do that because it's not a best practice.
\n\nSo, at the end of the day, virtual machines are pets, and the containers are cattle. And when containers start acting up, you kill them. And you take them to the meat factory, and you go get another one. And so this provides a ton of value from a software development and an ops perspective because anytime you have a problem, you just kill your containers, start new ones, and you're off to the races again.
\n\nAnd it significantly reduces the troubleshooting time when you're having problems. Obviously, you probably want to log things and check into things; why did that happen? So that maybe you can go make a fix in your software. But at the end of the day, you want to keep your ops running. Containers are a great way to do that without having to be up at midnight figuring out why the virtual machine is acting up.
\n\nAnd so the difficulty with cattle is they like to graze and wander and break through fences and things like that. And mostly, when you have an enterprise software application or even just a startup with an MVP, you probably have multiple containers that you need to run and build this application. And so you need somebody to orchestrate. You need somebody to wrangle your containers.
\n\nAnd so Kubernetes, I like to say, is like cowboys. Like, they're the ones that wrangle your cattle and make sure they're all going in the right direction and doing the right things. And so it just makes natural sense. Like, if you have a bunch of cattle, you need somebody to take care of them, so that's what Kubernetes does.
\n\nJOE: Yeah, just to add to that, one of the things I really like about Kubernetes is that it's declarative versus prescriptive. So if you look at a lot of the older DevOps tools like Chef, things like that, you're effectively telling the machine what you want it to do to end up with a particular deployment. With containers, you'd say, start this number of containers on this node. Start this number of containers on this node. Add a virtual machine with these. Whereas with Kubernetes, you state the way you would like the world to be, and then Kubernetes' job is to make the world like that.
\n\nSo from a developer's perspective, when they're deploying things, they don't actually usually want to think in terms of the steps involved between I push this code, and somebody can use it. What they want us to say is I want this code running in containers, and I would like it to have this configuration. I would like it to have these ports exposed. And I love that Kubernetes, to a pretty good extent, abstracts away all of those steps and just lets you say what you want.
\n\nDOMINIC: Yeah, that's a lot of the power in Kubernetes. You just say, "This is what I want, and then make it so." And Kubernetes goes out and figures out where it's going to schedule your container on what node or server if it dies. Kubernetes is like; I'm pretty sure you wanted one of those running, so I'm going to run it again. It just handles a lot of those things for you that previously you would need somebody with a pager to call to fix. And Kubernetes is automating a lot of that deployment and maintenance for you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And it seems like there's the movement to really coalesce around Kubernetes. I wonder if either of you can speak to the healthiness of the ecosystem for Kubernetes, which is open source, and why you chose to build on it.
\n\nDOMINIC: So there was sort of a bit of a container orchestration war for a while. There was a bunch of different options. And I'm not saying that a lot of them weren't good options. Like, Docker built a capability called Swarm, and it's fairly simple to use and pretty powerful. But there was just a lot of backing from the open-source community behind Kubernetes when Google made it an open-source project. There were other things sort of like Kubernetes but not really like Mesos. And they all had like this huge bloodbath to see who was going to be the winner. And I just feel like Kubernetes kind of pulled ahead.
\n\nIt was a really smart move from Google to make it open-source and get the open-source community's buy-in to use. And it just became a very powerful but complex tool for running your software in production. Google had been using some form of that called Google Borg for a number of years prior. And I'm guessing they're still quite a bit different. But that's how it kind of came about. Do you have anything to add, Joe?
\n\nJOE: I'd say that I judge the winner or the health of an ecosystem by the health of the off-the-shelf and open-source software that can run on that system. So Kubernetes is a thing that you use yourself. You build things to run on it. But also, you can pick and choose many things from the community that people have already built. And there is a huge open-source community for components that run on Kubernetes, everything from CI/CD to managing databases to doing interesting deployment styles like canary deployments. That's really healthy.
\n\nIt just didn't happen with the other systems like Swarm or Nomad was another one. And most of the other companies that I saw doing container orchestration eventually just changed to doing their flavor of Kubernetes, like Rancher. I forget what their original platform was called. But their whole thing was based on that cattle metaphor. [chuckles] And they took a pretty similar approach to containers. And now, if you ask somebody what Rancher is, they'll tell you it's a managed Kubernetes platform.
\n\nDOMINIC: Yeah, I think it's called Longhorn, so they very much have the cattle theme in there. I mean, they're literally called Rancher, so there you go. But yeah, at the end of the day, something is going to come after Kubernetes as well. And I like to think that it's not so much a matter of what's going to be next? Is there going to be something beyond containers or container orchestrators like Kubernetes?
\n\nI just think there are going to be more and more layers of abstraction because, at the end of the day, look at the advent of things like ChatGPT and generative AI. People just want to get their jobs done more efficiently and faster. And in software, there's just a lot of time and money that goes into getting software running and keeping it running, and that's why Kubernetes makes sense. But then there's also a lot of time that goes into Kubernetes.
\n\nAnd so we think that harpoon is just sort of the natural next layer of abstraction that's going to live on as the next thing. So if 15 years ago I told you I was going to build a web application and I was going to go run it in the cloud, maybe you would have said, "You're crazy, Dom. Like, how could you trust this guy, Jeff, with all your software? What if he is going to steal it? And what if he can't run a data center? What then?"
\n\nAnd now, if I told you I was going to go build a data center because I want to build a web application, you would look at me like I was a pariah and that I was not fit to run a company and that I should just use the cloud. So I think it's the same process. We're going to go with containers and Kubernetes. And software deployment, in general, is going to be an abstraction layer that lives on top of all that because software developers and companies just want to push out good software to end users. And any sort of way to make that more efficient or more fun is going to be embraced eventually.
\n\nJOE: Yeah, I agree with that. I hear people ask, "What are you going to do when Kubernetes is obsolete?" pretty often. And I think it's achieved enough momentum that it won't be. I think it'll be what else is built on top of Kubernetes? Like, people talk about servers like they're obsolete, but they're not; there are still servers. People are just running virtual machines on them. And virtual machines are not obsolete. We'll just run containers on them. So once we get beyond the layer of worrying about containers, you'll still need a container platform. And based on the momentum it's achieved, I think that platform is going to be Kubernetes.
\n\nVICTORIA: Technology never dies. You just get more different types of technology. [laughs] Usually, that's my philosophy on that.
\n\nDOMINIC: Yeah, I mean, there's never been a better time to be a software developer, especially if you're an entrepreneur at the same time, because that's what happens over time. Like, what we're achieving with web applications today and what you can push out to the internet and kind of judge if there's a market for would have been unimaginable 20 years ago because, again, you would have had to build a data center. [laughs] And who has a bunch of tens of millions of dollars sitting around to do that?
\n\nSo now you can just use existing software from other people and glue it together. And you can use the cloud and deploy your software and get it out to the masses and scale it. And it's an amazing time to be alive and to be building things for people.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And you mentioned a few things like artificial intelligence before, and there are a lot of people innovating in that space, which requires a lot of data, and networking, and security, and other types of things that you want to think about if you're trying to invent that kind of product. Which brings me to a question I have around, you know when you're adding that abstraction layer to these Kubernetes clusters, how does that factor into security compliance frameworks? And does that even come up with the customers who want to use your product?
\n\nDOMINIC: Yeah. I mean, definitely, people are concerned about security. When we do infrastructure as code for your virtual infrastructure that's running your Kubernetes cluster that we deploy for you, certainly, we're using best practices from a security standpoint. We do all the same things. If we're building out custom scripts for some clients somewhere, we'd want it to be secure. And we want to lock down different aspects of components that we're building and not just expose all the ports on maybe a load balancer and things like that.
\n\nSo by default, we try to build in as much security as we can. It's pragmatic. I think ultimately we'll probably go down to the path of SOC 2 compliance, and then anything that goes on top of a harpoon cluster or that is deployed with harpoon will be SOC 2 compliant to a large degree. And so yeah, I mean, security is definitely a part of it. We're currently building in a lot of other security features, too, like role-based access control and zero trust, which we'll have pretty soon here.
\n\nSo, yeah, if you want to build your software and get it deployed, you want it to be scalable, and you also want it to be secure. There are so many ilities that come into deploying software. But to your point, even on the artificial intelligence side, people are looking for easier ways to abstract away the complexity. Like, if I told you to go write me a blog post with either ChatGPT or go build your own generative AI model and use that, then you're probably going to be like, yeah, I'll just go to the OpenAI website. I'll be back in a minute.
\n\nAnd that's why also you see things like SageMaker from AWS. People want abstraction layers. They want easier ways to do things. And it's not just in DevOps; it's in artificial intelligence and machine learning. That's why drag-and-drop editors are becoming more popular in building web applications mobile applications. I think all of this software development stuff is going to be really accessible to a much larger community in the near future.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, wonderful. That's great. And so, Dominic, any final takeaways for our listeners today?
\n\nDOMINIC: Definitely, if you have interest in how either harpoon or Kubernetes, in general, might be applicable to you and your company, we're a bunch of friendly people over here. Even if you're not quite sure how to get started or you need advice on stuff, definitely go hit us up on our website or hit up support at harpoon.io, and send us a message.
\n\nWe're very open to helping people because, again, what we're really trying to do is make this more accessible to more people and make more people successful with this technology. So if we have to get on a bunch of phone calls or come sit next to you or do whatever else, we're here to be a resource to the community, and harpoon is for you to get started. So don't feel like you need a bunch of money to get started deploying with Kubernetes and using the platform.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's a great note to end on.
\n\nSo you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Dominic Holt.
Sponsored By:
Jennifer Goldsack is CEO of Digital Medicine Society (DiMe), the professional home for digital medicine. It is a global nonprofit with a mission to advance the ethical, effective, equitable, and safe use of digital technology to redefine healthcare and improve lives.
\n\nVictoria talks to Jennifer about using new products and solutions to solve some of the most pressing and persistent challenges in healthcare, measuring success by how well they are caring for people every day and not by how good their products or how many they use on any given day, and how DiME can improve the way that we identify, manage, cure, and support people in a lifetime journey of health and disease.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Jennifer Goldsack, CEO of Digital Medicine Society, the professional home for digital medicine. Jennifer, thank you for joining me.
\n\nJENNIFER: Thank you so much for having me; excited for our conversation today.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful, me too. And we have our Program Manager for DEI Geronda with us today. Hello.
\n\nGERONDA: Hey, how's it going? I'm super excited to be on here as well.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, me too. It's going to be a great conversation. So, Jennifer, why don't you just tell me a little bit more about the Digital Medicine Society?
\n\nJENNIFER: Happy to, one of my favorite topics, Victoria. So the Digital Medicine Society, or as we affectionately refer to it as DiMe, is a global nonprofit, and our mission is to advance the ethical, effective, equitable, and safe use of digital technology to redefine healthcare and improve lives.
\n\nAnd I think one point I'd like to make right off the bat is while we are tech and digital enthusiasts here at DiMe, we are not tech determinists. What we think about is how can we harness the promise of these new digital tools in the toolbox, these new products, these new solutions, and how can we use them to solve some of the most pressing and persistent challenges in healthcare, an industry that exists to care for people? That's what we think about all day. That's our measure of success: how well are we caring for people every day, not how good are our products or how many products can we use on any given day.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. So what did you see in the digital health space that led you to believe that something like DiMe needed to exist in the world?
\n\nJENNIFER: So it's interesting. When we take a step back and think about all the experts that need to be at the table to ensure that we build a field of digital health that is worthy of our trust, in our opinion here at DiMe, we think this is the most interdisciplinary field you can imagine, and that's a bold claim. But let me play it out for you. And maybe we can think about some other interdisciplinary fields during the course of our discussion.
\n\nFor digital medicine to work, we need citizen scientists and cyber security experts. We need physicists, engineers, product folks, data scientists, clinical scientists, clinical care providers, healthcare executives, regulators, payors, investors, funders all to sit at the table together, all to speak a common unifying language, all to have a shared idea of what our North Star is. What are we trying to do here as we digitize healthcare, and what does good look like and for whom as we do it?
\n\nAnd so that's the gap that the Digital Medicine Society was introduced to fill. That water cooler, if you like, where the leaders in our field can share their expertise and where we can very intentionally build a much better future for healthcare using the new digital tools in our toolbox.
\n\nVICTORIA: Interesting. And I like how you pointed out for whom. [laughs] And I see digital equity is a big topic that you're focused on with the organization. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
\n\nJENNIFER: I'm happy to, and in our opinion here at DiMe, equity has to be front and center of everything we do. I think too many times we look across and considerations around diversity, equity, and inclusion; they're part of a rubric. They're a vertical. That's not what we think here at DiMe. We have to think about diversity, equity, and inclusion in everything that we do as we work to digitize healthcare. We know that there are pressing, persistent, and absolutely inexcusable inequities that exist across the burden of disease, across access to care, across the quality of care you're able to access, the care that you can afford. We know that all of those things introduce a long-standing history of inequities in health and healthcare.
\n\nAs we digitize the healthcare industry, it's unacceptable for us just to be thinking about, hey, as long as we don't make things worse, that's not acceptable to us. We are thinking at every turn about how can we improve the way that we identify disease, the way that we manage disease, the way we cure disease, the way that we support people in a lifetime journey of health and disease? And how can we make sure that we do that for everyone in a way we've never been able to before?
\n\nSo while I could talk about some of the projects that we've done that exclusively focus on advancing health equity through the use of digital tools, it's actually something we keep front and center in everything we do, in everything we talk about here at DiMe and something that we try and compel every single person in the field to think about to make sure that we seize this opportunity.
\n\nGERONDA: I think that's fantastic. And something that you hit on that it's really important for us at thoughtbot is continuous improvement. And that intentionality is incredibly important when it comes to DEI efforts. And so one thing that we do have at thoughtbot is we have trainings, and we try to work toward a shared language. But we do understand that everyone is at a different point in a different journey towards DEI to be able to build and design the best products and provide businesses to our clientele.
\n\nSo I'd love to hear more about how your organization does consider that continuous improvement for all employees across the organization in terms of ensuring that you're enforcing shared language across the organization to be able to continue to have really great care for your people.
\n\nJENNIFER: Geronda, I love this. And I think that you've touched on something that's really important, which is while we can be collectively frustrated, perhaps even angry, about the health inequity that we see on a daily basis and that we frankly have not addressed as an industry for decades and decades...and quite frankly, I think we should be frustrated; we should be angry. Not taking the time to meet people where they are as they make a commitment to designing, developing, and thinking about the business incentives that they need in order to do this work well and to be intentional is actually incredibly counterproductive. So we always start with that shared language.
\n\nWhen we talk about inclusion in digital health, we need to not just think about all of the different vectors of inclusion and domains of diversity that we've developed as a healthcare industry, but we need to think about those vectors and domains at the intersection between healthcare and digital. And if we do nothing else beyond educate the field on what those domains and vectors are so they can be intentional, is they think about, gosh, what's the healthcare problem I want to solve for, for whom? How do I need to consider the needs of our intended users as I do that? That in and of itself is going to take us so much further than we are today.
\n\nBut I'd also love to learn from you guys. I love the three-part way you describe your work, that you think about designing, and then developing, and then getting the business of great product development right. How do you guys think about it? I'd love to be able to learn from you too.
\n\nVICTORIA: One thing I know, speaking specifically to the intentionality that you mentioned, so if you're building an AI product and you're not intentionally thinking about DEI, you can actually build bias and problems into the code itself. So for us, and, Geronda, I want to hear your perspective here too, consulting with experts in the field, especially in DEI early and making a culture where we do have a program manager of DEI. So I've really pinged Geronda several times already this year about, like, I have this question about this. And I think having access to an expert and having access to knowledge that you should go back and check yourself is part of it. But do you have anything you want to add there, Geronda?
\n\nGERONDA: I definitely agree with everything that you had said, Victoria. And also what I'll add too is that it is really thinking about in everything that we do, how do we bring DEI at the forefront? And recognizing, as I mentioned before, that everyone's in a different place. So it's not to say that if you mess up or if you didn't consider something that, you can't continuously improve. And we have this culture where I'm not going to come in as the DEI police to say, "How come you didn't consider that?" Or "Why didn't you think of that earlier?" It's more to say, "Oh, okay, well, here's how we can approach this differently."
\n\nAnd everyone's pretty open to the feedback and the learning. And so one example that I'll give is that our website, thoughtbot.com, we're right now working towards accessibility for our website so that we can offer it more to those with disabilities, or those that are visually impaired, or hard of hearing, and offer it to be more accessible for anyone who goes to our website. And it's a learning curve for quite a few of our folks.
\n\nBut the learning library that's offered in there to say, okay, I may not know everything about how things impact those that may be visually impaired, but let me educate and help to develop this website in a way that's going to support them. So to Victoria's point, it's infusing DEI in every way that we can. And what I love as well is that we do have a DEI Council, and we do have a shared platform to bring about issues or have those discussions and ask the questions so that you can continuously improve yourself to make sure that you're developing and infusing DEI across the work that you do.
\n\nSo great question and I really feel like it's, of course, a work in progress. But we're in a really good place where we can continue to have that continuous improvement through education, and learning, and feedback to correct ourselves.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I love that. I think that having the culture at least puts you in a good starting place. [laughs] I'd love to hear more about what projects you've worked on in that space, specifically, Jennifer.
\n\nJENNIFER: So, first of all, I love how you talk about this idea of you need to have a culture in place that allows us to assess opportunities, that allows us to identify the kind of work we need to do based on where we are today. And then once we've assessed those opportunities, once we've identified potential pathways, we actually then have the support and the right environment to be able to implement these best practices.
\n\nAnd there are two things that I'd love to highlight. The first is actually education resources and specifically education resources on applied digital health ethics. I think creating this culture of ethics which is absolutely inextricable from a culture of equity, is critically important. You need to have those folks on staff just like you guys do. You need to be able to go to potential end users and communities and have line items in your budget to reimburse them for their time and their expertise.
\n\nYou need to be able to have goals and performance metrics that actually reflect the success you're having or where you're struggling when we think about building a more inclusive environment. So that's a lot of what we try and fuel through our applied digital health ethics education. That's something that's a direct-to-learner option for folks; we're very proud of. We've had fantastic reviews and testimonials. We had tremendous faculty help us with that curriculum, and it's been really well received. And we are confident in the change that that education resource is driving in the field.
\n\nThe second is actually a suite of resources that we launched more recently, and this is where I can start to get really tangible. So as an organization, we convened a broad and diverse group of experts to really tackle the issue of diversity, equity, and inclusion in digitized clinical trials. And I use action-oriented words like tackle very intentionally. Unfortunately, what we see an awful lot of the time is people admiring the problem, for want of a better expression, that we'll see endless panels at conferences and op-eds, and these sorts of things being written about the current state.
\n\nBut what we were determined to do is own the fact that there is nothing technically prohibiting us today from deploying these digital tools and resources in the service of advancing diversity, equity, and inclusion while simultaneously addressing some of the long-standing clinical issues, while simultaneously addressing some of the regulatory science issues, while promoting access, while making sure we generate better data for better clinical decision making.
\n\nThis is not an either-or. This is not a trade-off. We are not limited by the technology; we are powered by the technology. It requires our intent and our commitment to actually doing this work. So I'm going to pause there to see if Geronda or Victoria you have questions on any of that. And then I can certainly go into more detail about those tools if that's interesting.
\n\nGERONDA: It's super interesting. And I do have a question. But I'll kind of recap and understand that by having those different broadened expertise, you're having multiple people come together with this expertise so that you can ensure you're providing the best data to help you make those equitable decisions. Does that sound about right?
\n\nJENNIFER: That's exactly right. I think that as fantastic and expert as our team are, we are merely representative of a broader community that is doing this excellent work out every single day, trying to improve the way we care for people, representing different communities, building tools. And unless we bring not only those innovators from different backgrounds to the table but also representatives of the communities we're actually working hard to serve to the table, our efforts will be inadequate. And that's why we're so committed to this multidisciplinary, pre-competitive, and collaborative work as we build our tools and resources here at DiMe.
\n\nGERONDA: Yeah, and that's amazing. The question that I have for you, the follow-up question to that, is we try to look across...our company is global. We do have employees in many different countries across the globe. So trying to ensure that we have an understanding of the needs on a global scale can sometimes be challenging. Can you speak more to this multidisciplinary broadened expertise and how they might bring in perspective that can help shape your technologies or even clinical trial project in a way that supports different ethnicities across the globe and how they identify and even intersectionality of folks as well, so not just race but also LGBTQ or other races as well like socioeconomic status?
\n\nJENNIFER: It's such a good question, and it's so important. And I think one of the things that I have frankly learned an enormous amount and really taken to heart are these many different domains and these many different vectors of inclusion. Now, first of all, if we start saying, look, we have to consider these 50 (I'm being facetious, intentionally so.) different considerations, then we're going to become so overwhelmed so quickly that we become absolutely ineffectual as we try and think about serving all of these different individuals.
\n\nBut, Geronda, you gave fantastic examples around the hard work that you've been doing even in your own website environment to make sure people who are differently abled...they might have certain vision or hearing impairments or whatever that might look like, and they can access your resources. They can interact with your team just as easily as anyone else. So I'll give you an example of something that had never occurred to me until we actually started working with a member of a community who represented this particular part of the workforce.
\n\nWe were talking about actually how we can use a variety of different tools to monitor respiratory illnesses and diseases. You can think about things like asthma. You can think about things like cough was an important symptom of COVID, for example. How can we use the microphones that you might find in your smartwatch or your smartphone? How might we use these to be able to monitor, predict and track disease?
\n\nWe'd gone through how does different socioeconomic status, how does place, how does race, or ethnicity perhaps play into your access to these different tools, your tech literacy, your trust in these different tools and products? What had not occurred to me at all...and I'm so embarrassed to say this, but you think about you can have a tool where you do all of the work around inclusive design. You can think about all of the different needs to earn the trust of the communities that you're asking to use these tools. But we hadn't contemplated how you might use these tools if someone, for example, worked in a work environment where it was incredibly loud.
\n\nIf you're on a building site, if you're in a warehouse, if you're working on a checkout, it doesn't matter how good the sensor is in your smartwatch that you may have been provided with because that work environment is going to absolutely drown out any signal from that stream of data. And so we need to think about all of the different ways that someone's life, and career, and their background, and social determinants affect our ability to develop and deploy tools that really can help them manage their health, improve their health, have better health outcomes.
\n\nGERONDA: That's amazing.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's amazing. And I wonder if you've encountered too an issue with if you're designing these applications...like I know when I was living in Washington, D.C., there were 3,000 people who don't have internet at home, don't have a computer, don't have a phone. So how would your team approach that kind of problem?
\n\nJENNIFER: [laughs] I think this is the theme of our conversation.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs]
\n\nJENNIFER: With intentionality, which is, is the goal here simply to provision tools and technologies, or is our goal here to be more thoughtful about the tools that exist, that we can use? Is our goal here to think about digital infrastructure and how we should be thinking about that not just to power healthcare but also perhaps access to education, access to safe and secure bank accounts, all of these different sorts of things?
\n\nWe cannot assume that every single person has top-of-the-range technology, unlimited data plans; we are foolish to do so. But the first thing we need to do is actually ask and understand what access to technology looks like and not just assume it's an affordability issue. Maybe it's a trust issue. You have to understand the root cause before you can work to solve something.
\n\nI'd also offer up some other data that I always find compelling and important as we have these conversations. While we know there are large portions of the population who don't have access to what some of us, unfortunately, when we're moving quickly, just assume that everyone has, there are also horribly underrepresented populations, represented populations that do have access to these technologies. Some recent data actually showed that one-third of homeless individuals in California do have a smartphone. Let's actually just pause and think about that for a moment.
\n\nYou can't get access to benefits or brick-and-mortar healthcare because you have to go and fill in all of your information if you don't have a home. But if you have a smartphone, which presumably many of these folks have realized that even at some of the hardest times in their life, they actually need that to stay connected in today's digital economy, that this is actually a way and a vector for us to reach them, for us to capture information and data about what it is they need, not just to improve their healthcare but to get supported into a more safe and sustainable environment with more security where we can actually support their health in a much more holistic way.
\n\nIt also can connect them with care, whether that's mental healthcare or whatever their needs are in any given moment, that if we were relying on the traditional brick and mortar system, we'd be unable to capture. So this goes back to two things. First of all, don't assume. Don't assume that people do or don't have technology, and if they don't, don't assume you understand what the root cause actually is. The second point is don't think about these digital tools as limiting factors; think about the ways that we can use them to overcome so many of the challenges that we've faced in the way we care for people for decades and decades.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that you bring that point up. I volunteered for many years with an application called HopeOneSource, which is a mobile app for people who are experiencing homelessness to get access to services that they need. And I know it might have changed over time, but it was like 80% of people who are experiencing homelessness do have a cell phone. And partly in the United States, there is a subsidy. If you're under a certain income level, you can get a free cell phone.
\n\nBut it's very easy to have your cell phone stolen or to get lost. And the impermanency of the device is also an issue. So I think it's actually, like you said, you don't want to make assumptions about what people have and what they don't. And you do want to bring the intention and understand what it's really like because that will change how you build in things like security and two-factor authentication and things like that. So...
\n\nJENNIFER: That's exactly right. And also, what are some of the infrastructure things we can do? You mentioned the subsidies for folks who are low-income. But then we want people to start transmitting confidential and private information about their health in order to access the highest quality care possible. Are we creating environments where there is access to secure connection environment? So they're not using public Wi-Fi where they actually might be more susceptible to harm due to sort of misuse of that data if it falls into the hands of the wrong folks.
\n\nThese are all of the different things we need to be thinking about. That's not to slow us down or to dampen our enthusiasm for the opportunities that digitization provides to improve the way we care for people. But again, it comes back to...I think what's emerging is almost a theme of our discussion, which is the need to be intentional.
\n\nGERONDA: I love what you said about not making assumptions because I'm a DEI practitioner, but I always tell people I'm not perfect. [laughs] And so my bias comes in sometimes. I sometimes will assume that I might know the answer to something or what somebody may be experiencing because I may be incredibly passionate about the LGBTQ+ community, which I'm a part of. And it's reminding myself that I can't assume or let my own biases or own feelings towards certain things to steer my decision-making.
\n\nI really have to be super open and objective to what the facts are telling and get those other experiences from other people. So I continuously check my bias, and I continuously try not to make those assumptions which can be hard at times. And while I know everyone at thoughtbot thinks I'm perfect, I'm the best, [laughter] it's just not true.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think it is true. [laughter]
\n\nGERONDA: There you go.
\n\nJENNIFER: Geronda, I so appreciate you sharing that, and I think it probably is giving everyone listening the same experience that I am having right now, which is you owning that and being willing to share that. Immediately cascading through my mind...and now all of the assumptions that I come to the table with, and all of the ways that I think about things and those hot topics that are unique to me and my lived experience, and what I've been exposed to. And on the one hand, we should never dismiss that. On the other hand, the definition of being inclusive is to go out to folks with those different viewpoints.
\n\nAnd one of the things I see increasingly featuring in these sorts of domains of diversity is political views. And you think, gosh, how has this even become a thing in the way that we consider caring for people? But it's so divisive. And I come to the table with all of my thoughts about these kinds of things. But what's serving us about our lived experience and about the passions that drive us all to try and create better products and a better and more inclusive future, and what's not? And how can we humbly acknowledge that and really listen and hear what others are telling us?
\n\nGERONDA: Right. Exactly, exactly.
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\n\nVICTORIA: If I'm a clinical researcher and I'm about to design an experiment, let's say, how can I use the resources at DiMe to help inform my opinion and help bring in that inclusivity, which I want?
\n\nJENNIFER: So, Victoria, great question. [laughter] I'm teed up to answer this one. So I think the first thing is, and, Geronda, this is something that you mentioned earlier, which is you don't do a 45-minute brainstorm before you get going, check a box, and say you did it. It's a continual process, and it's a process of continual improvement. So when we describe this, we would discuss the entire clinical trials lifecycle. So, first of all, there are DEI considerations, even in the kind of question you want to answer.
\n\nIf you are doing clinical research because you want to develop a new molecule, a new pill, or something, for example, what community will you be serving? What's the problem we're trying to solve for? Are we trying to add a me-too drug to a population that's already well-served? Or are we actually thinking about, gosh, there's this underrepresented population? There's a disease state where we've struggled to break through. We believe that we can deploy these digital tools in order to really effect change here. So it starts as early as what is the problem you're trying to solve for? What is your research question?
\n\nThen each stage as you think about, gosh, what are the tools that I might want to use in order to answer this question? Who are the people that we could possibly serve through the development of this new drug, for example? Great, then we take seriously our responsibility of making sure that every single individual who participates in our trial reflects and represents that broader population, that we are going to take inclusivity seriously so that when we have an answer to our research question, we know that what we know about the safety of a new drug and what we know about the effectiveness of a new drug applies equally well to every member of the population.
\n\nAt that point, we're asking ourselves questions about as we think about parts of the clinical protocol, so the different steps that we work through in order to safely administer a new therapy that's part of the trial, as we think about capturing the information we need in order to determine whether it's safe and effective, are we setting that up to be as safe as effective for everyone? Are we able to design the trial in such a way that the burden of participation isn't a barrier for certain members of the community?
\n\nIf we're picking digital tools to do things like remote patient monitoring...so imagine for anyone who has a smartwatch the green light on the back of your watch that's measuring your heart rate. Unfortunately, some of those products work differently across different skin tones. Have you done the work to make sure that you're selecting a tool that is going to give you equally trustworthy information for every single person? These are all of the things step by step that you should think about as you are developing a clinical trial.
\n\nWe have tool after resource after checklist to help you do this in a really accessible way. We organize them so you can find them really easily based on either what stage am I at and what can I do today to be more diverse, and more equitable, and more inclusive in the way that I'm developing new medicines? We also allow you to find these tools and resources based on a particular digital product.
\n\nSo if, for example, you think that you might be able to use, and we haven't said the words yet, so it's probably time, AI or machine learning to better identify a more diverse patient population that you could enroll into your trial, how are you thinking about catching potential bias that might take your good intentions and actually render them almost useless because you didn't identify bias in the algorithm, for example? So all of those tools and resources, and there are over 60 of them available, are open access. They're free to download, use them, interactive checklists, considerations documents, tools, and resources that help you act today as soon as you make a decision about doing clinical research that benefits all people.
\n\nGERONDA: And it almost sounds like, in a way, that this resource could be helpful for many other industries as well because although it's tied to clinical trials, the considerations and process that you're taking to start to think through those DEI elements that checklist can be helpful across many different disciplines. Would you say that's correct?
\n\nJENNIFER: I would. Now, Geronda, our superpower, is getting the digitization of healthcare right. And that's a big enough task that while there are other pressing areas, we will not stray into those. But I think you've hit the nail on the head. When we think about getting access to education, for example, or access to safe housing, or any other kinds of benefits, and we can think about how some of these digital tools can overcome many of the different barriers to access that different communities face. Absolutely, all of these different principles can apply. And in fact, we actually think that's really important.
\n\nWe talk a lot about harmonization in the work that we do. There are folks who have product portfolios that span different industries. When we think about really trying to hammer home the need to be intentional, to make sure that as we digitize the healthcare industry, we are bringing everyone with us, we should avoid, wherever possible, having unique or special considerations. Ultimately, these are all the same humans that we serve in other industries. We are trying more than ever to meet people where they are than insisting they come to us or come to the clinic, for example.
\n\nAll of these principles apply equally well. And if we do that harmonization well...and this comes back to the idea of culture that we were talking about. This just gets embedded into the culture of developing products for every single person, regardless of whether that's an educational product, or a healthcare product, or a financial product. We should be thinking about these things regardless of how we're striving to help and support people.
\n\nGERONDA: I love that.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And I wonder, when you were developing these products for clinicians or for healthcare providers, was there anything surprising in your initial research and discovery when building these things?
\n\nJENNIFER: Yes. And I would say that technology is no longer the barrier. There is nothing that we need a product to do, whether that's the way we account for, right? You're not always going to eliminate it. But the way that we account for, for example, bias in the way that we capture and process data, if you acknowledge it, you can do the necessary statistical interpretation. And then you can actually be well-informed in your decision-making.
\n\nThere's nothing either about the data, about the form factors, about battery life, about the performance of these tools that is stopping us from building and deploying solutions that work for everyone starting today, starting immediately. So then, what is the barrier? The barrier is a knowledge gap, a skills gap, an incentives gap. And that's really what we've been hammering to address.
\n\nAnd if you do look at our DEI resources, especially for digitized clinical trials, we try and think about all of those gaps and support people, whether it's through, here, let us educate you on actually where some of the risks are, some of the new vectors of inclusion or domains of diversity, especially at the intersection of digital and health. Let us support you with tools and resources, and guides for how to do this.
\n\nAnd then let us give you data and let us give you things like a market opportunity calculator, which is something else that we've created that will actually give you the business case to be more inclusive in the way that you develop digital products for use in clinical trials and the way you deploy them to support better research. That's really what we're focused on.
\n\nAnd so the surprise almost is that the tech isn't limiting us in any way. The flip side of that being we are not going to tech our way out of this. It comes down to humans and our decisions and how we develop and deploy these tools in the service of better health.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense to me, and it makes me think about there's like a moral obligation or value that you can apply to DEI, but there's also a financial aspect. [laughs] And if you put a lot of effort into building an app, for example, and don't think about inclusivity, and you get to the end and think, oh, now I have to go back and make it accessible, that can be a lot of rework. It can be a lot of cost, if not even a legal liability and financial liability, I would imagine, in the healthtech sector.
\n\nJENNIFER: That's exactly right. I couldn't have said any better, Victoria. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs] It's like, you are morally and legally obligated in many cases to include people. And it's better to just start from the beginning and start from the beginning and knowing what we're trying to do.
\n\nJENNIFER: 100%. And I was trying not to pile on because I think the statement just stands alone. We are morally obligated. In some cases, we are legally obligated. There are emerging regulations certainly in the clinical trials environment about having more representative samples in order for you to get regulatory approval, for example. One of those regulations is moving slowly, which is always frustrating and disappointing. But given the moral imperative, given the emerging regulations, given that finally, this is more at the forefront of conversations, you've got to think about the gymnastics that are happening to continue to avoid doing this. And that's a little bit of the pressure that we want to apply.
\n\nAnd so when we talk about the fact that there's no technological reason for not doing this, and when we have tried to provide the tools and resources to actually put these tools into practice, the only remaining question is, are you going to do it? And that's a big question. And as a field, we've not been terribly good at leaning into that previously. We'll talk about it all day. We'll admire the problem of inequity all day. We haven't been good enough at acting. And I'm hoping we're at a tipping point.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. And it sounds like now with DiMe, there's no excuse. All the information is there for you. [laughter]
\n\nJENNIFER: That was exactly what we tried to do. That was the challenge that we gave ourselves and this extraordinary team. And the different individuals and organizations that came to the table to do this they set the standard high. And I'm so proud of their sort of possession, of their courage, and their tenacity in saying, "We are going to serve up absolutely everything that's needed. We're going to present it in a way that it's almost impossible not to find what you need for every person who's coming with this question." We set the standard high, and I'm incredibly proud of how well we delivered on that.
\n\nVICTORIA: What does success look like for DiMe in the next six months or in the next five years?
\n\nJENNIFER: What is it? Is it a Bill Gates quote? Is it...you sort of overestimate what you can do in 6 months and underestimate what you'll do in 10 years, something along those lines. And the intention is there, though. Anyone who knows me well will probably say I've never underestimated anything in my life. I'm always pushing for the next thing. Let's come back to this notion that the tech is not the limiting factor. And we're facing a really interesting moment in healthcare where the current environment is simply not sustainable. There are not enough clinicians to provide care or conduct research. We've had an expensive healthcare system for a long time.
\n\nBut the prices are not sustainable when you think about how much health insurance is going up relative to inflation, when you think about the out-of-pocket costs that people are facing when you think about the fact that there's not a single healthcare executive who's sleeping well at night because they can't staff their units, and their supply chain costs are incredibly high. And they're worried about the sustainability of their hospital, especially in rural and underserved areas. Business, as usual, is not an option.
\n\nSo in the next six months, I think we're going to keep pushing along. But in that five-year window, I think we are going to see a fundamentally different way that we care for people in the healthcare environment and that we conduct clinical trials. No longer is healthcare going to be built around the clinic. That's not to say they're going to go away. There are, of course, going to be times where you need to see a clinician in person, where you need to have a procedure, where you need to have some lab work or imaging done.
\n\nBut so much of this can be translated into the home, can use tools to extend the knowledge and expertise of clinicians so that we can better care for people, all people, by meeting them where they are. I think we're going to see a fundamentally different kind of healthcare, different kinds of clinical research built around the patient, not the clinic. And part of that is going to be redefining what good healthcare even is. Currently, good healthcare is once you turn up at the clinic already sick, sometimes really sick, facing a catastrophic and likely very expensive outcome, we do our best. That's good healthcare.
\n\nI really think we're going to drive towards a future where these new flows of data and these new technologies are going to actually allow us to try and mitigate disease earlier, to intervene earlier, to catch all people who are at risk earlier in their health journey. And the great thing about that is it offers the opportunity to define healthcare differently. All of a sudden, good healthcare isn't; how good are we at intervening when you're sick? But how good are we at keeping you well and keeping you out of the healthcare system?
\n\nI also feel strongly that it is no longer going to be enough to just raise the top end of healthcare and provide the best care to the people who are able to afford it, that we are going to start to embed metrics around equity into our evaluation of good healthcare. And the sooner we do that, the better because every time we look at those numbers now, they are astonishingly bad.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And it's making me think about, you know, in five years, if we continue with the trend of global warming, they're also predicting more pandemics, more disease. And it seems like we are going to have to reimagine how we do healthcare because the current path isn't sustainable.
\n\nJENNIFER: Exactly right. Exactly right. And the sad thing about all of this is that the burden of things like climate change, the burden of pandemics falls on those communities and those individuals who have been underrepresented and underserved in healthcare for the longest. It increases the burden of disease and health stress on folks who have consistently carried the highest burden of disease, been part of the highest risk categories. Not only do we have to get better at delivering care to all people reducing the burden of disease, we have to do it where actually those challenges through all of those external pressures, Victoria, are going to be becoming worse.
\n\nVICTORIA: And it reminds me of another term I've heard for underrepresented, which is historically excluded, which I think really applies here. So that's fascinating.
\n\nJENNIFER: Because it is what it is.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, right? Like, that's what it is. So I think it's wonderful that's what you're working on. And let's see if you could go back in time to when you first started DiMe Society; what advice would you give yourself now that it's been three years and you've come a long way?
\n\nJENNIFER: [laughs] Sleep more. [laughter] I don't know, when I look in the mirror these days, there's an old lady that I'm sure wasn't there at the beginning of all this. But I think that's not the spirit of the question you were asking, Victoria. I wish we'd been bolder sooner. And we've never shied away from tackling the hardest problems. We started with this bold mission and vision.
\n\nPeople would ask us when we launched DiMe, you know, "Gosh, are you really focused across individual health promotion, across healthcare delivery, across public health, and across clinical research?" And we said, "Absolutely," because if we don't tackle it all together, we're simply going to create new silos in the digital era. And we're never going to move towards this reimagined healthcare system, a new healthcare system, one that cares for everyone and where access to research is even harder than access to care.
\n\nWith these new flows of data in the digital era, we want to do it together. So it's not that we weren't bold, but the way now we make strong statements that we've always believed and that we've always been proud of around the imperative to be inclusive around the demand for high-quality evidence to drive trust around the fact that none of this is a tech issue. It's a human issue. I wish we had gone there sooner. I think it is serving us well.
\n\nI think that the professionals that we work with across industry respond to it. They want to be part of this journey. They want to build a better healthcare system. And so, while we've always been, I think, bold and courageous in the vision that we've held and the work we've done, giving voice to it in a way that really reflects our vision and our passion has been so well received by our community. And they have stepped up to do this work incredibly well. I just wish we'd gone there sooner. That's the only thing I would have done differently.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think that's great advice, especially for founders who are starting out in a space like this, to really stand by their convictions and be bold about it. [chuckles] Like, this is what you believe in, and other people will connect to it if it's right, so I love that. And we're getting towards the end of our time here too. So I want to make sure I can pass it to Geronda if you have any other final questions for our guest here today.
\n\nGERONDA: More a comment in that I think that learning more about your organization and perusing some of the tools that you offer and the checklist that you offer...and it's such great work. And in some ways...and I'm trying to get the best way to say this. But in some ways, it's so clear of, like, this is what you can consider. This is what you should do. Although the work is not easy to do, it's really a helpful guideline for how you can start to think differently.
\n\nI really appreciate the thoughtfulness that was put into a lot of these resources that you're giving out and just where you are in your trajectory as well because DEI work is not easy work. And you sometimes...it can impact you emotionally. It can impact you mentally sometimes. But when you're continuing to go after what you know is needed and the intentionality of things, it really is super helpful.
\n\nSo although I said I didn't have a question, and I just had a comment, I lied. I do have a question. [laughter] My question to you is, in doing a lot of this work, ensuring that DEI is infused in healthtech, all the work that you do and that your team does, how do you just navigate and manage your well-being, your mental health, your emotional health as you continue to do all this work?
\n\nJENNIFER: It's such a great question. And when you said, Geronda, that this can sometimes be really emotional, I heard a statistic actually from a colleague of mine, Ricki Fairley, who's the CEO of Touch, Breast Cancer, and she was telling me that cancer affecting women under 35, Black women under 35 are diagnosed with cancer at a rate twice that of White women and die at a rate three times higher than White women. And, I mean, you hear that statistic, and it just takes the wind out of you. And it would be really easy to hide from that because it's hard to hear, sometimes too hard.
\n\nThe way that we handle sort of all of this as a team is we square up to these data, and then we celebrate one another. We celebrate our community when we are able to make positive change, even if it's incremental change. Even if sometimes you have those moments where you really move the needle, you have those other days or those other initiatives where you feel like you're crawling on your hands and knees to gain inches.
\n\nBut to celebrate that every moment and to remind ourselves the work is returning value to those people that we all get up every morning to try and serve, that it might be hard, but we're making progress. And that is, I think, the way that, as a team, we stay positive, we stay productive, and that we're able to balance, frankly, the exposure to the reality of some of these issues.
\n\nGERONDA: I think that's great, having a community even within the workplace. It's so crucial because you spend most of your time at work, as we all know. [laughs] And there's a lot that just goes on across the world all the time, and being able to just talk it out. We have employee resource groups for people to come together with common identities and just talk through things that are impacting them. And so I really think that's great that you're able to just be honest with how you're feeling but also celebrating those important positive moments because sometimes we can focus a lot on the negative. So I really love that you bring the positive aspects of that as well.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, thank you for sharing, and it comes back to the intention. Like, we're all on the same page. We all have this intention of solving this problem. So we're in it together in a way. So, Jennifer, are there any final thoughts or takeaways you want to leave our listeners with today?
\n\nJENNIFER: No, this was a fantastic conversation. I think we've drawn out this theme of intentionality that will serve all of us very well. Geronda, I love the final question about how do we keep our own sort of emotional state and mental health solid as we do this hard work? It's the perfect note to end on. So Victoria, Geronda, thank you so much for having me on. This has been just a wonderful conversation. I've really enjoyed it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. Thank you so much for joining and spending time with us today.
\n\nJENNIFER: Yes, I very much appreciate it. This was an awesome conversation.
\n\nVICTORIA: All right. And you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Jennifer Goldsack.
Sponsored By:
Cavan Klinsky is Co-Founder and CTO of Healthie, a scheduling engagement and Electronic Medical Records (EMR) platform used by healthtech organizations who seek to build long-term relationships with their clients.
\n\nWill talks to Cavan about providing an underlying infrastructure that other digital healthcare companies use to be able to focus on patient care and not reinventing the technology wheel by providing a scheduling platform, an electronic medical record, and a patient engagement solution–all available via API, via an API-first design as well as through fully branded interfaces. Healthie lets companies get to market faster, scale with less headaches, and provides effective patient care much cheaper than if they tried to build everything themselves.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. And with me today is Cavan Klinsky, who is a part of Healthie, a scheduling engagement and EMR platform used by healthtech organizations who seek to build long-term relationships with their clients. Cavan, thank you for joining me.
\n\nCAVAN: Thanks for having me on.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I'm excited about this. Healthcare is always an exciting topic to talk about, so let's start there. For the people who may not know, tell us about Healthie and what's in store for 2023.
\n\nCAVAN: Healthie, as you mentioned, provides underlying infrastructure that other digital healthcare companies use to be able to focus on patient care and not kind of reinventing the technology wheel. So we do that by providing a scheduling platform, an electronic medical record, and a patient engagement solution. That's all available via API, via an API-first design as well as through fully branded interfaces. So we let companies get to market faster, scale with less headaches, and provide really, really powerful patient care much more cheaply than if they tried to build everything themselves.
\n\nWILL: Oh, sweet. Okay, so who is your main audience? Is it the patient, or is it the healthcare provider?
\n\nCAVAN: Healthie is a B2B company. So we sell basically the software to the digital healthcare organizations that are looking to deliver care, but there's a patient side of the platform. So they're able to onboard their patients. It allows patients to video chat with their provider, message, track goals, view care plans, et cetera. But our customers are the businesses.
\n\nSo before Healthie, people would basically either try to cobble together like eight or nine different solutions to provide the experience they wanted, or they would spend millions and millions of dollars building in-house trying to piece together. But when you look at these different healthcare organizations, 90% of the functionality they're using ends up really being the same.
\n\nBut people were trapped in this build versus buy decision where they were really concerned that they wouldn't be able to have a platform flashy enough for them. But the downside of that was just the cost of building that in-house. So Healthie really changes it from a build versus buy decision to a build and buy. So our customers buy the platform. They are able to launch very quickly. But because we're API-first, they are able to extend the pieces that are most unique to them.
\n\nWILL: That's really neat. Yeah, one of the most frustrating things I find, especially when it comes to visiting a doctor, is having to call in to schedule an appointment. And I'm like; I just need an appointment; just show me the available times. I want to select it and be a part of that. And so research shows your software takes care of that, correct?
\n\nCAVAN: Yeah, that's exactly right. And patients really, really love self-scheduling capabilities. When you talk to healthcare providers, if you ask a doctor, hey, why have they not embraced it? It's because they really want this fine-grained control over their calendar. A lot of them are used to calling the receptionist who's worked there for a decade and understands their preferences and how they want things sequenced. And they want this type of appointment able to be scheduled back to back but not this other type.
\n\nThat's kind of really what we enable is we have this almost eye-wateringly long settings page where you can go in there checkboxes, configure things. And what you end up is just this really nice middle ground where patients are able to get that easy, self-schedule experience, not calling anybody, not waiting on hold. But doctors and other medical professionals aren't giving up control over their calendar. So it allows our customers to be able to do a lot of optimization, making sure their providers are fully booked but in a way where for patients, it's a really, really easy experience. And that's kind of a lot of the secret sauce that we offer.
\n\nWILL: Wow, that's neat. So tell us this, tell us about your background. How did you get started into the healthcare world?
\n\nCAVAN: So I got started in the healthcare world as I think a lot of people in this space which is I really got started as a patient. I had open-heart surgery after my freshman year of high school. I had eight weeks after that where basically I ended up kind of...I wasn't able to exercise, run around, kind of do most of the things I'd spend summers doing. So I ended up really stuck in a bedroom for most of it.
\n\nBut that whole experience, kind of from prepping for the surgery, having it, recovering, got me really interested in healthcare and also really frustrated at just having a bunch of poor healthcare experiences. And it also really gave me time to start learning a lot about the engineering side of things. So I built my first web application that summer with Rails. So I found a lot of great thoughtbot posts, and I have a ton of respect for thoughtbot as an organization. I've been using Rails ever since.
\n\nWILL: Wow. That's really neat. I read an article about this. Tell us about your React Native experience because, at thoughtbot, we're trying to get that started. We actually are started, but we're trying to get that same momentum as we have with Rails.
\n\nCAVAN: So I think with React Native, initially, we were just a web platform. We realized very quickly that to enable a really strong patient experience...patients wanted to be using their mobile device. They don't want to be using a mobile web browser. They want a native application. So we initially launched, and this is maybe six months after we started the company, we launched an iOS app. We realized a couple of months later that we were going to need an Android application.
\n\nSo we had a Swift and an Android application written in Java. We had a server-rendered Rails web application that we expose a very, very limited set of features via a REST API. And it worked out okay, but what we realized from doing that for about a year and a half, two years, was that we were duplicating a lot of work. The iOS app and the Android app were very similar to each other. But we had two separate developers who weren't able to really code review or help out the other.
\n\nWe weren't a large enough company where it made sense for us to have a bunch of iOS developers and a bunch of Android developers. And then we were also duplicating a lot of functionality with this REST API, basically copied the things that we were doing just with server-rendered HTML. So in 2018, we had basically a from-the-ground rewrite of the whole web application, which was kind of a crazy experience. We moved to a single-page application on the web. We switched over to using GraphQL for everything.
\n\nAnd then we initially rebuilt our mobile application still using Swift and Java but now on top of GraphQL but really with an eye towards saying, hey, how do we end up getting off of these kinds of very siloed developer experiences and not to something where even if we don't have multiple developers who can do it, at least where developers can help each other out and understand?
\n\nSo a few months after that, we kicked off our React Native rebuild. We built our whole mobile applications in React Native. Ultimately, having gone through a few different React projects, I think it's the only one in my life that kind of went as expected in a positive way. We did the rewrite. It came in on time. The mobile developers, instead of having an iOS and an Android, it was just two mobile developers who were able to help out each other and collaborate.
\n\nWe can have web devs do code review for mobile, and they're able to provide feedback because we use React on the web. So it's definitely not write once, run anywhere, but I do think it's pretty close to at least understand everywhere. And that's been a really, really big thing for us. And then we're still able to bridge out to Swift or to Java for some more of the OS-specific features.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. That's the beauty of React Native, especially for your SaaS company. It's a perfect scenario because, like you said, web developers can code review. Sometimes they can even help with the code because it's right along the same lines and everything. So that's really neat.
\n\nCAVAN: Yeah, and we're able to share libraries, so, like, some of the NPM packages end up being the same. So it's just, yeah, it's been a lot of really, really nice experiences with that.
\n\nWILL: That's neat. So as the Founder and the CTO, what keeps you up at night?
\n\nCAVAN: I think what keeps me up at night is primarily for exciting things. We're in this position where we're seeing this huge sea change in how digital healthcare is delivered. Healthie is in this really nice balance where we're a mature company, you know, we're seven years old. We serve thousands and thousands of providers, millions of patients. But we're not like the Epics of the world, that are 35 years old and are just super resistant to change.
\n\nSo we ended up in this kind of nice, sweet spot where we're tech-forward enough and flexible where we can really support these high-end use cases but then also basically mature enough where we have the scalability and the resiliency as an organization to be able to do that. So, I mean, a lot of what I think about is we provide business-critical healthcare, critical infrastructure for a lot of people. And that number continues to grow every day. It needs to work. It needs to work quickly. It needs to work securely.
\n\nAnd that's what, a lot of the time, I think about both from a technical perspective and then also as the organization as a whole grows, from a hiring and an organizational structure perspective. So I think you really go from hacking on the codebase day one seven years ago to kind of hacking on the organization as a whole. And that's really where I spend my time and what keeps me up.
\n\nWILL: That's neat. Wow, that's really cool. So as a first-time founder, tell me this, you've been around seven years. That seems like a long time, so kudos to you for enduring that and sustaining that. That's amazing. What are some of the things that day one when you started the company...if you could look back, what are some advice that you would give yourself to say, hey, don't do this or do this?
\n\nCAVAN: Yeah, the piece of advice I would give myself is advice we actually received pretty frequently and didn't believe, and then it ended up almost totally derailing the company.
\n\nWILL: Oh wow.
\n\nCAVAN: And that's that, you know, both my co-founder and I were first-time founders. I think we're really smart. We're definitely hard-working, you know, very motivated people. And we were really convinced that we'd be able to just do a full-out sprint and never stop sprinting. And we kept on getting told by advisors and investors, "Hey, it's a marathon. It's a marathon." We were like, you know, we're just going to sprint the marathon. That started out okay, and then a couple of years in, we started hitting walls and really realized that you can't sprint a marathon.
\n\nStartups take way longer than I think founders hope they do or think that they're going to take to develop. Digital health and our healthcare system moves much, much more slower than kind of people think. So especially if you're a founder in digital health, you need to be building both a company and, I think, a personal lifestyle that's sustainable. You need to make sure that the company has money in the bank and can be around for years and years and years. And you need to make sure that your job, your day-to-day, is something that you can also continue to do for years and years and years.
\n\nSo that's ultimately, I think, the most important thing that we're able to tell our customers and something that we've now gotten the company in a position to be in, which is, hey, we're a sustainable business. We're a stable business. We'll be around in 10 years. And that ends up being a huge selling point for us. But definitely, if I would go back and do it again, I would have been smarter about that from day one. I would have avoided a lot of big pain points.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. It reminds me of when I started in development. I tried that same sprint the marathon, and so many of my co-workers were like, "Slow down, you're going to burn out. You're going to burn out." And it reminds me of that when you say that.
\n\nCAVAN: Yep. And everybody thinks they're invincible, and then you realize occasionally you're not. And then also you look at it from hindsight, and you're like, well, the code I was writing between 2:00 a.m. and 6:00 a.m. every night for three months was not the best code.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nCAVAN: And once you get to a point when you get some breathing room, it's almost that you got to go slow to go fast type things where a lot of these best practices, having really good test cases, having good CI, having good work-life balance for employees I do think on a long-enough timeline actually allows you to go much, much, much faster versus just trying to crunch the whole time.
\n\nWILL: Totally, totally. I can't tell you how many bugs that I fixed that I was sitting down for hours and hours. I go on a 15-minute walk, and I solve it in the first 5 minutes.
\n\nCAVAN: Yeah, absolutely. I literally, I mean, if I get stuck on something, you know, I just end up doing too much coding. But if I ever really, really get hung up, whether it's coding, or design, or anything like that, I'm like, at this point, I'm a cognizant of the pain. I'm not making progress. I'm spinning my wheels. I'm getting more and more frustrated with everything happening on my laptop and, like, exactly as you mentioned, go walk around the block. Come back, and you have that eureka moment pretty frequently.
\n\nWILL: Definitely, definitely.
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\n\nWILL: You kind of mentioned it, mental health. And I was listening somewhere where you said, "It's not about doing 100-hour weeks, every week, every week, every week." So for Healthie, what are some of those things that you have implemented to stay healthy, to be able to run the marathon and not burn out?
\n\nCAVAN: I loved startups and entrepreneurship stories growing up. I would read TechCrunch and Hacker News and all this stuff and Twitter. It's gotten a little better, but there's still really this pervasive mentality of like, you know, I used to have my background computer screen was, you know, "Work like somebody's trying to take it away from you 24 hours a day," which is a Mark Cuban quote. And just all these things where if you're not doing the hustle porn, if you're not putting in the 100-hour weeks, you're not a real entrepreneur. You're not going to build a good business, like, you're going to lose out.
\n\nI had really, really taken that to heart. And that kind of goes back to the sprinting a marathon piece where eventually, in 2018, it's like, well, this is not really a sustainable thing. And for us to build a sustainable, long-lasting business, for us to have the impact that my co-founder and I and the rest of the people in the company wanted to have, you need to build really a sustainable business and a sustainable lifestyle.
\n\nSo I think at Healthie, or what I generalize to other companies, is the number kind of day one thing is how was the company funded? Because that ultimately drives a ton of what is determined to be sustainable. We've been lucky enough where we've had this interesting fundraising story. We raised a million dollars to basically build a related but kind of more narrow in scope business. I realized pretty quickly that that was not going to be some huge venture-scale success that we would not be able to raise more money.
\n\nWe were profitable for years and years and years, kind of rebuilt the whole platform, and got into this much, much larger space. And we did last year raise another 16 and a half million dollars. But one of our most important questions, when we raised that money, was, hey, we need to find investors that are long-term aligned. We weren't looking for people looking to flip their equity in a year. We weren't looking for people who are going to push us to grow at all costs and not look at spending or how we were growing. We just wanted growth, growth, growth.
\n\nSo we found investors that were really, really aligned with our long-term vision for the company. We still look at cash very, very closely. The Slack message I'm going to look out for most every week is our VP of finances, like, our breakdown on our cash flows, so I keep a very close eye there. And then really build a business that people want to pay for and use. And, at this point, we have 80-something people. Payroll is getting more and more substantial, but that's all offset by our customers and their revenue, and that is really what's sustainable. And so that's more the finance side of things.
\n\nAnd then, as far as the company as a whole, I mean, being super cognizant that having crunch time is not a good thing. It's not a feature; it's a huge bug. When we agree to projects, we're making sure that we're planning things out. We're leaving breathing room where we're not asking employees to work crazy hours. We're not burning employees out. We're not burning ourselves out.
\n\nAnd it's not not working hard because it's still working hard, but it's working hard in a very smart and focused way that is less all-consuming. I think also as a boss, just being a decent person. If people have life events that pop up, if people have crises, and people have things they need to deal with, you know, work is incredibly important. I love what I do. I think about it all day. But there's a life outside of work, and making sure that we're allowing employees to have time for that, once again, is really important for long-term sustainability.
\n\nWILL: Wow, that's really neat. That's really neat. And yeah, I totally agree with that. That sounds like a great company. And I think that's the building blocks of what it takes to start the company. So that's amazing. What are some of your accomplishments? I love for my guests to come on and brag about themselves. I know you said that you've been around seven years. You just raised $16 million. You have about 80 employees. That's amazing. What are some of the things that we don't know? Would you like to share anything with us?
\n\nCAVAN: I mean, look, I started Healthie as a freshman in college. I dropped out to work on it full-time, so Healthie has been my whole career. And I think to go on a bit of a bragging rant; Healthie has had a lot of success so far. But my co-founder and I always like to joke we're halfway into being a 13-year overnight success. So when I like to brag, I like to brag partly about what Healthie is doing. But what Healthie does is enable other companies. So I really like to brag about what those other companies are doing.
\n\nCompanies using Healthie have raised over $2 billion in venture. We're supporting millions and millions of patient lives. We're supporting thousands and thousands of providers. We've seen people go from two founders in a venture studio up to these massive hundreds and hundreds of people organizations, and we do it not just in one space but in a big range of spaces. We're doing it in weight loss, behavioral health, addiction treatment, sleep, other kinds of mental health areas, chronic pain.
\n\nAnd the type of care that we're enabling people to provide is proactive. So we're having people treat obesity, not a heart attack, diabetes, not an amputation, addiction, not an overdose. And ultimately, what I really, really think that does is that's enabling kind of this sea change in how healthcare works in this country where the more proactive we get, the less people end up in hospitals. The cheaper healthcare is, the more efficient healthcare is, the better patient experience patients receive, and ultimately, the better healthcare they receive. So that's really what I like to brag about because, ultimately, we are kind of that core infrastructure layer that's enabling a lot of that.
\n\nWILL: Wow, that's really neat. I can't remember the name of the guy that said it, but he said there are usually three Ps, and most companies struggle with one. So it's people, products, and processes, and mostly people struggle with the processes. And it sounds like Healthie is able to help people, medical providers, with that process and to kind of say, hey, let me take that. That may not be your strong suit, so you can go and do your product and the people and stuff like that.
\n\nCAVAN: Yeah, what I really say is when you think about what makes kind of these digital healthcare companies unique, a lot of time, it's a new insight or a new type of care model. They want to combine a newly approved FDA drug that's really effective with a series of coaching encounters in a different sequence than people have been doing with really great educational content, et cetera.
\n\nWe see all these different care plans in all these different areas, and they end up unique to the company and then even to patients within the company. But to be able to deliver that care plan, there are so many kinds of table stakes things you need that I really describe as boring, difficult, and non-differentiated and can only really negatively impact the company. If you have an appointment with your doctor and the video call works, you're not necessarily thinking more highly of the doctor, but if it doesn't work, if it's a shitty piece of software...
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nCAVAN: If you're not able to connect, then suddenly you think a lot worse of them. And these things are hard; getting reminders out in the right time zones, handling daylight savings time, running servers 24/7 with great uptime. These things are non-trivial, but you need to be able to do them just to be able to get to like the 5% that really makes the business unique, which is the unique care model. So that's kind of really what we enable. So yeah, I would say it's a lot of the process. It's a lot of those kinds of table stakes infrastructure but in a way that's flexible enough where they're not having to sacrifice those unique insights that they have.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, that's really neat, really, really neat. I want to shift a little bit, and I read this in a blog, so companies have been getting in trouble for data sharing. That's been the big thing right now. And I think it was your CEO that said, "Data is our customers' data; it's not Healthie's data. And that is true day one, and it's true today." Tell me more about that. Tell me kind of the outlook of Healthie with customers' data.
\n\nCAVAN: So ultimately, I think one of the things going back to sustainable long-term success is around aligned incentives. So we need to make sure that the business we're building, the way we make money, the way we succeed as a company is aligned with the way our customers succeed. And when you think about it from a data perspective, our customers are the businesses. We help them deliver care. We have, as I mentioned, millions and millions of patient lives kind of all these visits, outcomes, et cetera.
\n\nAnd hypothetically, you could say, try to build a business where you don't really sell the software. You give it away very cheaply, but you retain rights to the data. And then you package that, anonymize it, and sell it to pharma, or whatever, and just kind of use it really as a data platform. And I think definitely there have been EHRs out there who have done similar approaches or at least thought they would.
\n\nAnd ultimately, why it's so bad, or at least why we think it's so bad is because it's a fundamentally different incentive. At that point, your customers are no longer your customers. Your customers become the product, and your customers' data becomes the product. And there are some cases if you're running a free social media site, well, maybe that's the way you have to run it. What's really great about what we do is we're selling underlying software to really successful businesses that build great companies, make a lot of money, and are more than happy to pay subscription fees for that.
\n\nAnd then, once you're in that really enviable position, it's not worth muddying the water with anything that misaligns those incentives. So we've been very, very clear from day one that we don't provide healthcare. We are not a data play. We are a software infrastructure company. That's what we do, that's what we're great at. That's what we focus on, and we don't mess with the other stuff.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing. I love that. One of the other big things, especially in healthcare, digital healthcare, have been online threats and things like that. Tell me a little bit about that. How are you keeping your company safe from those online threats?
\n\nCAVAN: Ultimately, one of those things where let's say all our customers try to build their own stuff, they don't have the resources. They don't have the know-how. They don't have the focus. And you end up even if they have the functionality, who knows how good that security is? So one of the benefits we offer companies is, going back to one of the things we have to be really, really good at, is security. So Healthie is a secure platform. We're HIPAA compliant. We're SOC 2 Type 2 compliant. We're audited by a third party on both of those. And it's something that we think a lot about ourselves, but it also becomes a big benefit to our customers.
\n\nSo if you're a brand new startup and you're trying to sell to a major hospital system, and we've seen this a lot, like, very often, they'll have myself or another security-focused person on Healthie on the call. And we enable them to have good answers to these questions because we're the ones running the servers. We're storing the data. We are already making these good decisions. We have best practices in place and have these accreditations and certifications. And that enables our customers, once again, to focus on delivering care and not in reinventing the security wheel.
\n\nSo it's a big thing we think about. We're talking about security constantly here at Healthie, you know, always running kind of 24/7 compliance tools, always making sure that we're improving our security posture. But ultimately, we do it so that our customers need to worry less about it. And it is one of the...going back to the things that, you know, we don't mess with data. We do worry a lot and think a lot and do a lot around security.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing. Awesome. Love it. I want to close on this: what does Healthie have coming up, anything exciting coming up in the next year?
\n\nCAVAN: I mean, I'm excited every day when I see our customers expanding when I see the new customers we're talking to. I mean, I think, really, we've been doing the same thing, just at a larger and larger scale, for the past seven years. And our goal for 2023 as a company, and we talk about this a lot internally, is to go from startup to scaleup.
\n\nSo at the end of 2023, if I look back ten months from now and say, hey, what did we set out to do? What did we accomplish? It's did we continue to build the best team? Did we continue to build the best product? Did we continue to provide the best customer experience? And are our customers seeing a lot of success on the platform? And it's not like there's a new product line to enable that. You're not going to have some silver bullet that's going to change the dynamics. But it's really we just want to take what we're doing that we're doing a really good job of and just do that on a higher scale. So that's really what we're thinking about for 2023.
\n\nWILL: I love it. Sometimes just being consistent is the way to go, so I love that.
\n\nCAVAN: Yeah, you got to show up. Look, I used to wrestle. The way you become a good wrestler is not by knowing 800 wrestling moves. It's by knowing five moves and practicing them every day over and over again for years, and that's true of a lot of sports. It's true with startups. It's just consistent focus and having an aligned mission at the company. Really, really focused on pushing the ball forward every day, day in, day out, is just so, so important. And that's really what we do here.
\n\nWILL: I love it. Love it. Love it. Is there anything that we didn't cover that you would like to share with the audience?
\n\nCAVAN: I think if you're a company building in the digital health space, if you care about having these strong relationships with your patients, definitely check us out; we're gethealthie.com. Healthie is with an I-E. And then love talking to startups, love talking digital health, and always happy to talk.
\n\nWILL: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening, See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Cavan Klinsky.
Sponsored By:
Dr. Stephanie Smith is Clinical Psychologist and Founder of the Finding Center app, the first intuitive eating classes app.
\n\nVictoria, along with surprise co-host thoughtbot's Director of Product Strategy, Jordyn Bonds talks to Dr. Stephanie about creating the Finding Center app to give people who are struggling with their bodies and their relationship with food a way to follow a plan, understand a path forward, and be able to see themselves getting healthier.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Dr. Stephanie Smith, Clinical Psychologist and Founder of the Finding Center app, the first intuitive eating classes app. Thank you for joining me.
\n\nDR. SMITH: Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here. It's nice to see you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Nice to see you too. And we also have Jordyn, our Director of Product Strategy at thoughtbot. Hi, Jordyn.
\n\nJORDYN: Hello.
\n\nVICTORIA: So let's just kick this off. And Dr. Smith, tell me a little bit more about your Finding Center app.
\n\nDR. SMITH: So I created the Finding Center app really a little bit selfishly because I wanted to create what didn't exist for me 10 or 15 years ago when I was really struggling with food and my body. And I'm very by the book, you know, tell me what to do, and I'll follow that. And there just wasn't something like that at that time of my life.
\n\nAnd so I created the Finding Center app to give people who are struggling with their bodies and their relationship with food a way to follow a plan, a way to understand a path forward, and to be able to see themselves getting through this, you know, getting to a healthier tomorrow. And that's what I really wanted for myself, and that's what I hope to build here.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, I love that it came out of a personal issue you were having. And what was the gap between that type of content versus what already existed in the market?
\n\nDR. SMITH: Back at that time, you know, this is probably dating all of us here a little bit. But at that time, [chuckles] apps were a little bit newer; technology was, of course, you know, things are growing so quickly. And there were things like books, so you could read something on your own. Or you might be able to go see a therapist or a counselor, but they may not specialize in this kind of thing. And so there really was sort of this DIY, like piece things together, figure it out, try a book, try a workbook, maybe they'll go together, maybe they won't. Or go see a provider, and they may or may not specialize.
\n\nBut there really wasn't something that was going to be a direct guide for these issues. And certainly, at that time, and still exists today, there's this huge lack of available things that are respectful to body diversity and size diversity. And so, really looking for something that wasn't going to be further stigmatizing, it was and still is an extremely huge challenge in this marketplace.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. And tell me more about, you know, you've mentioned intuitive eating. And how is that different from a diet or from your regular food tracking apps?
\n\nDR. SMITH: That's such a great question. So intuitive eating is really the most old school [laughs] kind of style of eating because it's what we're all born doing. If you've spent any time around toddlers, you know that they'll have a couple of bites of a sandwich, a little bit of apple, half a cookie, and then they'll go run and play. Kids are natural intuitive eaters, and that starts to fade as we get older. And we start to have this morality around food and morality around body and this pressure to change and have things different. And we kind of lose that intuitive ability to have half a cookie and go play because I'm done right now, and maybe I'll come back to it, maybe I won't.
\n\nIntuitive eating really is about this recognition that that's what you were born with. That's what your birthright is, and you still have that. And it's really kind of pulling away these kinds of stigmas and biases that culture puts on top of our relationships with food and our relationships with our bodies. And when we can pull that back, there's this beautiful natural ability to eat what we want and to find a balanced way of nourishing ourselves. And that's really what intuitive eating is about is getting back to that.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And how did you go about taking what seems like even though it's a basic, like, at its most [laughs] basic concept, but it's this very big, different way of conceptualizing food and boil that down into like an application? [laughs]
\n\nDR. SMITH: I have to be very clear here. I did not do this on my own. [chuckles] So intuitive eating has been around for a long time. It was started by a couple of dieticians, Evelyn Tribole and Elyse Resch. They've recently been in The New York Times recently and in other places. So it's becoming a little bit of a hot thing, which is great. But I had those resources.
\n\nSo I've been following people who kind of are in this space. And they are one of those people who had a book and a workbook, so you weren't able to get that kind of personalized walk-through. But these resources have existed, and those are some of the resources that are the ones I mentioned, you know, that I started putting together when there wasn't something like this app that existed.
\n\nSo it's really borrowing from them and then tying intuitive eating into body acceptance, and body liberation, and radical self-love, you know, tying intuitive eating in with these things, with our bodies because body shame and how we treat our bodies in terms of nourishment these are really integrated concepts. And I wanted to bring them together in a very intentional and overt kind of way.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think that's wonderful. And I'm curious, Jordyn, if you have any thoughts on if you were meeting with a founder who had just built this app, what would be your first questions you would ask?
\n\nJORDYN: Frankly, a lot of what I would ask is what you've already asked. But the sort of next thing I would focus on are questions around who are your users? How did you figure out who to bring this to first? How did you make that decision?
\n\nDR. SMITH: That's a great question. So when I was building this, you know, I think I mentioned that I was really building it from this place of what would I have needed at that time? And so I'm really looking for people who kind of think similarly, you know, who really want structure, who want multimedia kind of support. I wanted journaling activities, and I wanted education, and I wanted something to think about or some mindfulness. I really wanted a lot of things because I learn in a lot of different ways. So I'm looking for people who like to learn that way.
\n\nAnd I'm also the type of person that when I do something, I really want to do it. I want to dive in. I want to figure it out, you know, I really want to show up for it, and this is that kind of thing. And so it was pretty natural to think about the type of, you know, maybe personality who would be a great fit for this.
\n\nAnd then, in terms of who it's for, I really started with people I knew. So the first program that I ran through it was an intensive version of the app, which meant that there were weekend group meetings with everyone. And there was live Q&A and a place for us to ask questions and respond back to each other and share.
\n\nAnd I really started with people that I knew and friends of friends because a lot of people, you know, I think if we all think about our networks, a lot of people struggle in their relationships with food and in their relationships with body. And so the first place I started was with the people I already knew and saying, "Do you know anyone else who would be a good fit for this?" And it has kind of blossomed from there.
\n\nJORDYN: What's been one of the more unexpected things you've learned from your users as you've gotten more people into the app using it?
\n\nDR. SMITH: I think one of the things that isn't necessarily unexpected at all but is really striking to me in terms of how impactful it is is how much medical stigma impacts everyone and especially those who are in larger bodies, or bodies who are marginalized for other reasons because of their health status, or racial status, or age, or other factors like that.
\n\nAs a health psychologist, I like to think of my work and my workplace as being somewhere that people can come and feel safe, and feel heard, and feel understood. And now I'm seeing, you know, I work in a doctor's office, yet my experience of being in a doctor's office is so different from other people's experiences and the stories that I heard from others about how they went in for some kind of pain and weren't even offered physical therapy, you know, were offered a diet instead of that. And those kinds of stories, how many of those I've heard, has been really striking and really surprising to me how impactful that has been and how much work we really need to do to improve the experience for patients.
\n\nJORDYN: Given that finding of the importance of safety, how has that idea informed how you've gone about designing and building the app?
\n\nDR. SMITH: Of course, with a project like this, you know, I think a lot of founders on here have shared kind of building the airplane while you fly it. [chuckles] And so I've gone and, of course, recorded a lesson or made a journal entry activity or something like that. And then I am going back, and I'm adding things to those. So I'm doing a re-recording or adding a piece, or adjusting the journal prompts or the mindfulness activity, really to make some very clear statements there around if you've heard this kind of thing, you're not alone.
\n\nIf you have experienced this type of being shamed, let's really bring that out of the darkness. Let's bring it into the light because shame is something that lives in the dark. And so really wanting to help people excavate the parts of that shame that they are willing and comfortable and wanting to bring out into the light and creating a space for that has become really important for me.
\n\nIt is making sure that we're able to talk about these things and say, "No, yeah, I think my provider is a great person. I do think they care about me. And at the same time, they're living in this weight bias and this stigma place too. And these are the recommendations they gave me. And that was a person that I thought would be safe." And so really trying to have those balanced discussions around why that might happen and giving people a place to talk about that.
\n\nVICTORIA: And one example I've seen in, I think, in your marketing materials is a measurement like the BMI or the Body Mass Index. And that's one that even myself I've experienced being used on me in a way where it's like, "Well, the index is saying you're overweight." And I'm like, "Well, clearly, I'm not. [laughter] Something is wrong with this measurement." And I can't even...you probably have a greater understanding of the harm that causes in communities.
\n\nDR. SMITH: Yeah, that's such a great point. I have looked at that myself. And I remember the very first time that someone said that, like, "Well, you're overweight. Have you considered losing weight?" And I was coming in...I think I was coming in to talk about something related to my period, something like that. And I thought, why are we talking about this? What is going on? [laughs] Where did this come from? I just wanted to talk about switching my birth control. And it just comes into every conversation.
\n\nAnd I think even someone like me, even someone who's in this space where I'm going, well, this is a bunch of crap; I think we all know at this point BMI is a bunch of crap. But even knowing that there's still this part of me that...and maybe you relate to this too of just, well, I do live in this culture. And you're saying these words about me like overweight. And my immediate thought, even though the one coming after that is frustration, my immediate thought is, oh no, what's wrong with my body? It's to be afraid. How am I going to be treated? Or does this mean something bad about my health?
\n\nAnd so even these metrics like BMI do a terrible job at acknowledging body diversity and actual health and all of those things. They're still scary still. And I think in a body acceptance space; it's really important for us to also acknowledge that even though we want to be body-accepting and be advocates for ourselves, it's still really normal when someone gives us that kind of information, especially someone in a position of power like a health care provider, that when someone is saying those kinds of things to us that it can still hurt. Even though we know, maybe intellectually, this is where that's coming from, that it doesn't need to hurt, it still does.
\n\nVICTORIA: And it can have financial implications as well if they're indicating that you're not "healthy" quote, unquote, because of a statistic like that that is meaningless. [laughs] But yeah, that can affect your insurance and all other kinds of things, so...
\n\nDR. SMITH: Yeah. And I think the financial piece that you're bringing up there is such a good point because there's so much power and control dynamics that can occur around finances. We really are limited by [laughs] what we can afford and not afford to do. And so people who are limited in terms of what they're able to pursue for their health will have to go along with lots of things that they may not believe in or may not want to follow up on because that's what their doctor is telling them is within their insurance to do. And that's a really hard thing.
\n\nVICTORIA: Sounds like the app gives patients or people the tools to be able to push back in some of those scenarios and also furthering body acceptance and an understanding of eating habits. What is the kind of immediate goals for your app? What does success look like in the next six months? And then maybe what does success look like five years from now?
\n\nDR. SMITH: When you started asking that question, I almost felt like a magician or a stage performer putting on 18 different hats all at once. [laughs] And I thought, from which of these should I respond to that question? [laughs] And so there's the health care provider inside of me going, well, as many people getting the support that they need, that's the benefit. So if one person gets it, that's great. I want anyone who can feel greater liberation to have that.
\n\nAnd then that hat pops off, and the marketer hat that I've been wearing kind of pops on and is like, well, these are the metrics in terms of growth and collaboration with other people in this space that I want to do. I want to collaborate with more people who are working here, and there are metrics around that that I want to pursue. And then the person inside of me that has to make money goes, okay, well, this many sales.
\n\nAnd so I think success is a really hard thing for me to pin down. But if I were to summarize, trying to kind of encapsulate all of those roles, it really just is having more people experience the app, having more people experience the education there, and being able to get that feedback to make it better. This is the first year of growth, and so there's going to be so much learning. I don't know yet what's going to be the next big thing that makes me go, oh my gosh, how did I not put that in there? And I'm just so excited to get to that point where I'm getting more of that feedback so that I can continue to make it better and better.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And I think that it's a great place to be, [laughs] and you have an app that has a meaning for people. And then you also have other ways to measure your success. And, Jordyn, I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on an initial strategy to kind of meet some of the goals that Stephanie is laying out.
\n\nJORDYN: I was actually going to go backward in time first, if you don't mind, and ask, as a person with an application now out in the world who does not have a technical background, could you tell us the story of how you went from this idea to those first steps of making it happen in the world? What did you do? Where did you go?
\n\nDR. SMITH: [laughs] Yeah, so this is, on my end anyway, kind of a wild story though it may be typical for those of you who have been in this space. But so for me, I had this idea that I wanted to do to take the classes that I already do...because I already teach classes and I teach them live, and I love to do it. It's so much fun for me. But I wanted to take those and make them accessible for more people. And I wanted to make them in such a way where people could go at their own pace, you know, kind of follow through.
\n\nAnd so I've had this idea for, I want to say, something like five years, but I just wasn't finding the right platform. A lot of the online courses and things like that I do like them, but they didn't feel as flexible as I wanted them to be. For me, when I'm listening to an app and learning information, I want to be able to listen offline. I want to be able to watch it sometimes. I'm really looking for a lot of flexibility.
\n\nAnd I didn't even have the thought of an app, but that's what an app gives you, you know, it gives you this ability to be flexible, to be on the go, to kind of make your learning what you want it to be. And so I didn't really know what I was looking for, but I knew that I hadn't found it.
\n\nAnd then I saw this program that helps you build apps. I think I saw an ad for it on Instagram or on Facebook, you know, just one of those very random things. And I saw the ad, and I went, oh, that's kind of interesting. And I went on the platform, and they do this thing which I think makes a lot of sense. And they say, "Well, here's a 30-day free trial. Do our educational thing to learn how to build an app. And then, if it's not for you, cancel at the end of 30 days, no big deal." So I thought, all right, that sounds good.
\n\nAnd what I didn't realize that they were doing...I don't know if you've heard this metaphor before, but maybe it's this concept that if you want to take the island, you have to burn the boats. Basically, it's this general kind of showing up on this island with the army and saying, "Okay, well, if we want to take the island, the best way to get my troops to be able to do that is to make it so that there's no way to go back basically." And that is what this program did.
\n\nIt wound up walking me through these steps that were actually slowly burning the boats because about halfway through that free trial month, they said, "Okay, now we're going to post something online about this. And we're actually going to post every day for a week." And I'm just following the steps and going, wait a second, now I have to do this because now I've said I'm going to.
\n\nAnd so it finally kind of got me out of this hemming and hawing, and I don't know what to do and very much launched me into this, okay, well, now this is happening kind of place. And so it was really interesting to see that happen to myself. [laughs] I could kind of see it happening a little bit. And yeah, that's how it happened.
\n\nJORDYN: That's great. I love how you made sense of the process as a person going through it. And burning the boats to take the island metaphor is one I've never heard before. But now I have to know what the platform was [laughter] because it sounds like they did a really good job of getting you to put something out there.
\n\nDR. SMITH: Yeah, they really did. The platform is called Passion.io. And they are actually a platform that I think targets health and wellness influencers which, as you know from talking with me or if you follow my things, you know sometimes I have some beef with some of the things that they might share. We might not have the same idea about how to go about those things. But Passion.io was the platform, and they have a ton of learning tools. They've got a lot of different resources on there for walking you through the initial stages of creating something.
\n\nAnd then they also walk you through a little bit more high-level things. And one of the pieces that I really like about it is that underneath all of this how-to is this bolstering. Because I think for a lot of people, certainly for myself, there's this thing, this imposter syndrome that we all have of, well, I'm not good enough, or no one's going to like it. Or what if I'm embarrassed? Just the many, many places of doubt that we have.
\n\nAnd underneath all of the how-to is really this space of you've got this. You've got a good idea. If you don't try, you'll never know. And so that's really the undercurrent of all of that. And I found that combination of this is what to do, and here's why it's meaningful to you, and here's why you are in the best place to do it, and that was really helpful.
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, I really love that. That's a lot of my work with early-stage founders is that. It is constantly saying, "You've got this. This is your space. You know it better than most. Just because you don't know everything there is to know about starting a tech business doesn't mean you aren't qualified to engage with your customer. So like, "If not you, who? And if not now, when?" is always [laughs] kind of what I'm asking. And it sounds like this platform does a lot of that coaching.
\n\nDR. SMITH: Yeah. And, Jordyn, I just want to comment, too; I'm sure for you, if you do this a lot, you may get to points where you go; gosh, do I still need to be giving the same kind of reassurance? And I just want to say on the end of someone receiving that reassurance, yes, [laughs] we still need it. And so that work that you're able to do of just providing that consistent I'm here for you, and you are here for you, and we're going to do this. It's amazing to me how much I have needed that, and I still need that. And I just appreciate anyone who is out there doing that because it is really, really, really hard to be that vulnerable.
\n\nJORDYN: Oh, 100%. And this is hard-won for me. I've been a founder twice and a very early employee at other startups twice. And what's amazing about that particular journey is that just when you feel like you're getting your footing at one stage, the stage changes.
\n\nDR. SMITH: [laughs] Yes.
\n\nJORDYN: So, to your point, you never stop needing that bolstering and that sort of just the coaching and the cheering on because the situation you find yourself in is constantly shifting under your feet. So 100% agree.
\n\nDR. SMITH: Yes. [laughs] It sounds like you absolutely have the experience to be the person [laughs] to shepherd people through this, which, thank goodness, somebody's got to do it. [laughs]
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\n\nJORDYN: I just feel like with a lot of things...and as a mental health professional, you're in a better place than many to understand this, but with any big undertaking like starting a business, really just anything, training for a marathon, you name it, some very significant percentage of the challenge is mental is yourself. It is getting yourself into the mindset where you can keep doing it. And I feel like a lot of folks just focus on the tactical stuff, here's how to do this, here's what to do, which is great. And you need those things.
\n\nAt least half the battle is inside of us. It is emotional. It is mental. And any amount of being able to acknowledge that and grapple with those feelings as they arise is going to just make everybody that much more effective, which I feel like it's great when folks are working on apps where that's built into the mission like yours is because it's like, you can't lose sight of that. It's actually your life's work.
\n\nDR. SMITH: Yeah. And this is going to be such a psychologist comment, so forgive me for [laughs] it. But it's such an interesting thing that you're pointing out because what we're really talking about, from my perspective, is this place on the graph where vulnerability meets your highest ability to perform. And so I think for a lot of industries, not just mine, it's that crossroad where I'm at optimum vulnerability to really be able to connect.
\n\nBecause when we're not vulnerable, if I keep myself too safe, then I'm not going to be able to position myself in a place to reach the most people or produce something that's going to be the most meaningful. And so I have to be willing to say, "This is going to be [laughs] really scary. This is going to really suck for me sometimes, and I'm going to get it wrong. And it's still worth it to do that because of this meaning that I'm wanting to do."
\n\nAnd I don't think all times in someone's life is the time [chuckles] to do that, you know, this happens to be the time for me, which is wonderful, and scary, and hard, and terrible, [laughs] and all of the rest. But it's, I think, just being conscious that there is a necessary amount of vulnerability to achieve the potential with something like this that you want to achieve and acknowledging I am just going to be sitting in a lot of hard, and that means I'm doing it right.
\n\nJORDYN: Absolutely. Yeah. And it's sort of without meeting a challenge we don't achieve. But to your point, it's that right mix of challenge and vulnerability. You don't want either of those things getting too out of balance. That is kind of the art of this journey, but 100% agree.
\n\nDR. SMITH: Yeah, I was thinking just earlier today about stress because this is stressful. It's so difficult to do. And I was talking to a friend the other day, and I was saying, "Yeah, you know, I've just been stressed with all of these things that I was doing." And this person said, "You know, well, if you tried blah, blah, blah thing, it will take the stress away." [laughs] A substance you could use to take the stress away. And I said, "You know, I haven't thought about that, and I guess I could."
\n\nBut I thought in my mind how quickly we went from talking about the particular things that I was dealing with that were causing stress to trying to fix for stress and how much that's a part of our culture. And I thought, you know, the level of stress that I'm having is appropriate to the situation. I don't actually want to dull that level of stress because I need it in the same way that a car might benefit from a backup camera. When it starts to beep louder, [chuckles] I want to hear that because that's letting me know I'm heading for a crash, and I want to be conscious of that.
\n\nSo certainly, as a mental health provider, I think that's one of the things that's helping me move through. It's just that sensitivity to there's a certain level of stress and a certain utility to stress. That's important when you're building something because you're also needing to maintain yourself as a person, and you've got to monitor that pretty closely.
\n\nJORDYN: You're still in private practice.
\n\nDR. SMITH: Yeah. Yeah.
\n\nJORDYN: It sounds like you've got, and I think you alluded to this earlier, a lot of hats that you're wearing.
\n\nDR. SMITH: [laughs] Yes.
\n\nJORDYN: How has it gone balancing the launch of this app with the rest of the work that you're doing?
\n\nDR. SMITH: [sighs] Well, it's been a lot. So I am a private practice psychologist. I also have a nine-to-five. I work in a hospital as a health psychologist, and, you know, building the app and doing all of those things. And I think the biggest thing that's been important for me to be able to remind myself again, and again, and again, and again is just if it stops being what I want to do, even just in a moment, don't do it; do the next thing.
\n\nBecause for me in this space, as much as I might say, you know, I've burned the boats...and that is motivating for me to get through particular things. I also have to recognize that just like my body will tell me what I need with food, my body is going to let me know when I've had too much for the day or when I've been doing too much of one thing. And I need to go for a walk, or I need to just go the heck to sleep, or I need to do whatever. I need to do a different project, toss the marketing down and take a look at some of the patient notes or whatever.
\n\nFor me, because I love all of what I do, everything is important to me. I think I get something from all of that, and that is important to me too. You know, not every day is roses. There are days where I just want to say, screw all of it. I'm moving to Tahiti or whatever, whatever the fantasy is. But honestly, when it comes down to it, I do it because I love it. These things are meaningful to me, and being able to share in the world in all of the myriad ways that I do that I get a lot of meaning from that.
\n\nAnd I would start to become concerned about that for myself if I stopped getting something back. And I think this is basically how we feel in anything that we invest in, whether I'm investing time or love, or money, or whatever we invest because we also get back, and when that stops happening, that's the time when I reevaluate. And so far, that hasn't happened yet. So far, I've been able to pivot and stay conscious of where I'm at and switch from one thing that I love to something else that I love. And then I find when I do that; I do always want to go back.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's the benefit of wearing multiple hats, right? You can pick one up and put on a different one if you're matching your energy levels.
\n\nDR. SMITH: Yeah. They say...one of the quotes that I've always related to for better or for [laughs] worse is if you want something done, give it to someone who's busy, and I think that's true for me. I'm one of those people where I like a level of busy. I thrive on that; I enjoy it. And it's just staying conscious of the balance.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I think that's great. And we talk to founders about that a lot, actually, about how to balance their time. And it's interesting to hear from a psychologist's perspective.
\n\nDR. SMITH: Yeah, it's been an interesting thing going through this as a psychologist because when I do say things like, "Well, yeah, I've been stressed," People say, "What? But you're a psychologist. You're not supposed to feel stress." And I always think this is hilarious because I go, "What the heck do you think psychologists [laughs] are?" Stress is a normal part of life. I'm going to be stressed and ticked off, and irritable, and all of the things just like everyone else.
\n\nI am very fortunate to have additional skills for how to manage it when those feelings come up, which I'm extremely, extremely grateful for. But being stressed, or upset, or sad, or any of the range of unpleasant but completely normal human emotions, we all feel those [laughs] too. Those are just as natural for us.
\n\nVICTORIA: Like, I never thought the goal of psychology was to never be stressed.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nDR. SMITH: Right. Yeah, it's just to become increasingly better able to manage it.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. With your approach to your app, are there experiments that you're designing in the app to see what your clients relate to more, or how are you building that?
\n\nDR. SMITH: Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things that I am kind of balancing right now is that there's this space with intuitive eating. It really covers nourishing yourself, and a lot of that is around food. But our relationships with how we nourish ourselves and how we relate to our bodies also impacts how we move our bodies or not, how we are intimate with our bodies or not, how we are in much, much broader spaces in the world.
\n\nThere's a quote that says something like, "It's not about food, but food is sort of the stage where we enact what we're going through," kind of where we enact the deeper things going on for us. And so for me, really, what I'm experimenting with and balancing is how much do we want to focus completely on foodstuff? And how much do we also want to recognize that food is going to also dovetail into movement, and also dovetail into mental health, and also dovetail into how you manage stress at the end of the day, and also dovetail into the intimacy that you have in relationships, and the pleasure that you allow yourself or not, or that you think that you deserve?
\n\nSo I think really what I'm doing now and probably what I'll be doing forever with it is finding the right balance of those things and making sure to be respectful of all that's impacted by someone when we talk about just their relationship with food and their bodies. We're talking about their whole lives and really wanting to be able to go deeply with that and not keep it just on the surface.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense and an interesting thing to try to measure and experiment out within an application, right?
\n\nDR. SMITH: Mm-hmm. So one aspect of the app, and probably the most meaningful one, is the courses. And there's another aspect of the app, which is a subscription. And so that's weekly lessons that are similar to the courses in that they're journaling, and a lesson, and mindfulness, and different components to them. But rather than being step by step by step like the courses, they are kind of on different topics each week. And so that's really been a space for me to experiment with some of that and to see what people are into and what really resonates with folks.
\n\nAnd also, of course, to use places like social media, I'll use Instagram, and I'll do a reel on this topic, and a reel on this topic, and see how that goes or a visual or whatever. And I think it's really been an interesting process within the app and also in the other places where I'm able to advertise for it, like on social media, just to see what's meaningful for people. So much of this process is finding your people and creating things that are meaningful for them, and I'm still learning how to do that.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think that's great. And I love to hear you're experimenting on a weekly basis for what content really resonates with people. I'm wondering, Jordyn, if you have any advice or tips for how to find your market, how to find your people.
\n\nJORDYN: Well, in this scenario, since you've got folks using the app already, it's great because you basically have leads, trails to follow, breadcrumbs to [laughs] chase down. So I don't know how many users you have already. And you don't have to tell us if you don't want to.
\n\nDR. SMITH: [laughs]
\n\nJORDYN: But I would basically look at the patterns of their usage and find those folks who are really using the app in the way you feel it is most useful and follow up with them. Who are they? Interview them if you can. But if you can find out things about them anyway, zero in on those folks as a specific niche and see if you can get as many people who look like them and can be defined in any way. It really depends on the characteristics of the folks themselves. And it could be geographic. It could be some component of their identity. It could be anything.
\n\nBut basically, those folks who are really getting the most out of your app in the ways that you are sort of locating value for them really double down on those folks. Can you find more people like that? Can you find out more about how they're using the app? Why it's resonating. That's what I would be doing right now, and it's possible that's what you're doing. [laughs]
\n\nDR. SMITH: Well, I'm kind of curious about how to do that, you know, because anything you ask of people is one more thing. [laughs] And I think the truth for a lot of us is that we have a lot of things. And so I have a hesitancy in saying, "Well, do I send a survey that someone has to fill out? Do I try to take some of their time over the phone or ask for an email?" Because, of course, anything that takes time is something someone needs to put into their lives.
\n\nAnd as willing, as I think people are to be helpful, and certainly I'm very fortunate to be around just incredible people, there's a limit to that. You don't want to be asking for too much. And so I would be curious from your perspective, Jordyn, if you think there's a right way to do that, if there's a way that you think is kind of the right way or a way [laughs] to try to strike that balance.
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, definitely. And that dynamic is something you've got to be sensitive to. People are busy, and you are asking them for something. But at this very early stage, that's kind of the beauty of this stage of the work is that it's an opportunity to really build with people, to invite them into the process so that they feel like they're co-creating something with you.
\n\nAnd that's why focusing on those users who appear to be getting the most out of the app is the best place to go because they're going to be the most likely to want...if they're getting something out of it, they probably are pretty excited about that. They're probably going to be excited to talk to you about it, et cetera. But that said, you should do something to compensate, and I don't mean that necessarily with money but compensate them for their time and their effort.
\n\nBut in a mission-driven context like yours, it's really a great opportunity to kind of bring the community along with you. These folks are your first champions. You'll be surprised. In my experience, the people who are the most sort of impassioned about what you're doing and are benefiting from it the most are more than excited to help. And the channels how you make this ask just totally depends on the details of these folks and how they prefer to communicate.
\n\nSo with regard to the question around a survey versus getting people to talk on the phone, it's a little bit of trial and error. Send out a survey, see if people respond. Putting a survey in the app is great, especially if it's just one question or two questions right after some key interaction. So maybe they've done today's lesson, or this week's lesson, or this week's activity, and right afterward, asking them one question about how they're finding the app.
\n\nAnd then, if they engage with that, then the follow-up can be, "Hey, thank you so much for giving me that feedback. If you're willing, I'd love to chat for 20 minutes with you about this. I really want to be creating this with my customers and my users. So no big deal if you don't have time; I get it. But it would be really valuable."
\n\nAnd you'll be surprised, I think, [laughs] how many people are more than excited because they really do feel it's a signal to them that you care deeply about their experience and that you really are trying to make that experience the best thing for them. It's sort of unintuitive. It feels like you're asking them to give you something, but what you're giving them is you're leaning in to co-creating with them.
\n\nDR. SMITH: Yeah. Jordyn, I love that. I think that's such a great idea. And from a mental health perspective, it's so authentic, too, because, of course, you want to offer people the opportunity to share about what they've learned and to be able to process it out loud. And you're right, that will be helpful to me, but it is also a service that's not dissimilar to what sometimes people come to therapy for, you know, is to just be able to process their experience out loud and be heard...and some of those things for themselves. So, Jordyn, I think that's such a great approach to that, and I really appreciate that. That's great.
\n\nJORDYN: Absolutely. And I would only add that it's another signal...who ends up responding positively to that is another signal for you on who your best collaborators are in the app. I mean, you can look at how they're using it to answer that question. But it's another signal to you like, oh, these are the folks who are really finding this useful. They're finding it so useful if they want to talk to me about it. And that will then additionally help you double down on those folks.
\n\nDR. SMITH: I'm curious for you, Jordyn, and I'm curious about how to reach a broader audience. So, certainly, I know people, and people who know me are much more comfortable reaching out to use the app or to be part of things because they know me and trust that it's going to be good. But expanding that to people that I don't know or that aren't, you know, through somebody, through a direct connection, that part is more challenging, of course. Because how would they know to trust me, especially when they've been around providers, as we were talking about, where sometimes that trust can be broken in some of these very vulnerable areas?
\n\nI've been experimenting with some things like creating an Instagram and things like that because I wanted to create a space for people to see what is this person all about? What is this messaging? But I'm curious if there are other ways that you would recommend to reach people who don't know me who would be then willing to take a chance on something like a course, which is often a kind of a high-ticket high-investment type of thing.
\n\nJORDYN: Well, there are myriad ways to do that, too, that come to mind, the kind that sort of define the ends of the spectrum. One of them is along the lines of what you're doing with Instagram, basically, advertise. Do a Google ad, do an ad on Instagram. You're going to capture a certain segment of people who are maybe not as focused on relationship-based referrals, who maybe are suffering in isolation, maybe they're not talking to anyone about this. So that's sort of one end.
\n\nBut the other, I would say, is reaching out to fellow clinicians who you have a good relationship with and saying, "Hey, is this something you'd be willing to recommend to your patients or the folks that you work with? If not, why not?" Basically, activate your professional network in terms of adding this as another resource that they recommend to folks because then you're kind of multiplying that people you know effect, and that can be very powerful.
\n\nDR. SMITH: Yeah, it's such an interesting thing too because as you were talking, I started noticing, in my own mind, that little piece that we were talking about before of this kind of like, ah, well, I don't want to burden anyone. I don't want to give them one more thing to do. Then I thought, well, I love resources for my patients; that's only to the good. [laughs] I love having those things.
\n\nAnd so it was so interesting just to kind of observe that kind of process happening in real-time in my mind of this little bit of doubt that makes me go, oh, that makes me nervous, and then having to dig down to what you're actually telling me [laughs] because this is value-added.
\n\nJORDYN: 100%. And I'm glad that you noticed that and brought it up because I think this is especially for underrepresented founders, so women, people of color, so much self-doubt. And that hurdle is sometimes the biggest hurdle. And what I did, this is funny; this is fairly tactical.
\n\nDR. SMITH: [laughs]
\n\nJORDYN: When I was a founder, I made a document that was basically a reminder to myself. I would look at it before almost every call I had with anybody about what I was working on. But it was basically, hey, Jordyn, why are you doing this? [laughs] And it was like, why does this thing need to exist? Why am I the right person to be making it? Sort of a series of those things. And just to remind myself every time that what I was doing was valuable and that I'm not out there trying to get people to do something for me. I'm trying to get them to do something for themselves.
\n\nI'm taking a problem they're already trying to solve for themselves and just giving them another tool. That's it. And if they don't want to pick it up right now, that's fine. It might not be the right time. But reaching out to other practitioners and saying, "Hey, I have this tool. And the tool was developed out of a lot of the same things I'm imagining all of you are experiencing in your practices." A significant number of them are going to be like, "Oh great," just what you said, "Great, another tool. I can add this one. And maybe it won't be right for every one of my patients, but it might be right for some of them."
\n\nAnd just getting around that in your heart of, like, you're not asking them for something. You're giving them another resource. And in fact, not doing that sells yourself short, sells them short, frankly. You're not making this for you. This isn't merely about satisfying your own ego. I'm sure there's a little bit of that in there.
\n\nDR. SMITH: [laughs]
\n\nJORDYN: There always is. But for the most part, you're trying to help people, and by not telling them about what you're doing or offering it to them as a resource, it sort of defeats the purpose.
\n\nDR. SMITH: Yeah, it's such an important reframe. And like we were talking about before, it's one of those things that I think just needs to be on loop, [laughs] in the heads for founders. And probably some version of this on loop for all of us, you know, just as we're going through life kind of reminding ourselves my presence is not a burden. [laughs] It reminds me a little bit of what Sonya Renee Taylor kind of started with, "The Body is Not An Apology." And I think this is basically kind of going off of that topic. You know, I'm not a burden.
\n\nJORDYN: Absolutely. And I love that frame. You're doing this for a reason. You're not a burden. Your app that is out there helping people is not a burden; quite the opposite.
\n\nDR. SMITH: Right. It's amazing how [laughs] important that reminder is.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I love that. And, Jordyn, you also have our incubator program coming up soon for other founders. Do you want to mention that real quick?
\n\nJORDYN: Of course, I would love to. thoughtbot has a new incubator program launching this year. We have our first run of it starting in mid-March. Who this is for is non-technical founding teams. So you might be a solo person. You might have a team, but you haven't found that technical co-founder or partner yet, but your business idea involves building an app or building software of some kind. And basically, you're at the early stages. You haven't launched anything. You've identified the opportunity, maybe you've talked to a bunch of your potential users or customers, but you're not sure if there's a there there and what to do about it. That's the ideal sort of stage and persona.
\n\nAnd the program is really about helping those non-technical founding teams validate the market opportunity, do some experiments with product, basically build a couple of features, maybe a landing page that expresses the value proposition, et cetera, just to learn as much as they can about what the opportunity is and how they might need it with software. Get them used to working with a technical team and then help them with their planning for next steps, maybe that's raising capital, or maybe it is finding a technical co-founder. We can help with that. That's the idea. It's an eight-week program. Everybody who sees themselves in what I just said should apply. And the URL to apply is thoughtbot.com/incubator.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. Thank you so much, Jordyn. And thank you for all your advice and your questions that you brought to the episode today. And, Stephanie, is there any final takeaways you'd like to leave our listeners with?
\n\nDR. SMITH: No, I just think this was such an excellent opportunity. I feel like I learned a lot from it. And I want to thank you both so much for taking the time. It's really been a pleasure.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. All right. Yes, thank you both so much for joining me today.
\n\nAnd for our listeners, you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guests: Dr. Stephanie Smith and Jordyn Bonds.
Sponsored By:
Michele Veldsman is Director of Neuroscience R&D at Cambridge Cognition and Founder and CEO of Playroom, an invitation-only secure social network for families.
\n\nVictoria talks to Michele about the premise of Playroom and its goal of giving parents a network, a safe social community where parents are able to know and easily communicate with people associated with their children and also provide specific options to maintain boundaries when it comes to their privacy and safety, the challenges families face in raising kids and maintaining a career, and new features she wants the app to include, such as finding nearby restrooms while out and about.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Michele Veldsman, Director of Neuroscience R&D at Cambridge Cognition and Founder and CEO of playroom, an invitation-only secure social network for your family. Michele, thank you for joining me.
\n\nMICHELE: Thank you for having me.
\n\nVICTORIA: Tell me a little bit about your journey. How did all of this get started?
\n\nMICHELE: I had some kids, and I realized quite quickly that raising children is really difficult. I don't have family close by to support me. They are a couple of hours away. But trying to manage being a professional working in a fairly intense job, looking after my kids, making sure they have everything that they need and that they can socialize, and that I have a support network around me turned out to be really difficult. And so I wanted to find a way to solve that essentially.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. So you identified a problem from your own life in trying to manage your career, and you're raising your children without that close, immediate support.
\n\nMICHELE: Yeah, exactly, yeah. And I realized this is a problem for a lot of people that increasingly, we don't live in these sort of small communities where we're surrounded by friends and family. Increasingly, people are moving to different cities, different countries. And that support network isn't there, but there are still all of the challenges of raising kids and trying to have a career at the same time.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And like we were talking before we recorded, I just got back from visiting my family in Virginia, and I live in California now. So I'm familiar with some of the challenges my brother and sister-in-law are facing with childcare. Can you tell us some of the things that specifically you found really difficult in this situation?
\n\nMICHELE: A lot of the time in my working life, I found there were loads and loads of tech to kind of try and make things easier to organize things. There's just a lot out there just for my working life but not much to support my family life, of which there are actually many, many more challenges because I'm kind of trying to juggle. I'm making sure that my kids their healthcare is all right, that they're getting their vaccinations on time, that I'm applying to school places on time, that I'm making sure that they're meeting other kids their age, and they're having play dates, and organizing birthday parties, all of those things.
\n\nAnd then to try and fit that all into the wider day-to-day life, I found this really difficult. I spoke to other parents, and they also found it really difficult. In fact, I did some research with over 120 parents, and 70% of them found parenting really difficult or extremely difficult.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's a lot of cognitive load on a person to manage all of these different things like school, and medical, and all the things you need to buy, [laughs] and what brands are the best.
\n\nMICHELE: [laughs] Yeah, exactly. And actually, just trying to build this community around yourself is more difficult than you anticipate. So, for example, my kids went to nursery. And this is the time that they're starting to socialize and making these important connections that are really important to their development. And so as a parent, you're hearing from your three-year-old, oh, they've got this new best friend, but you have no idea how to connect to the parents of that child. And the nurseries daycare can't give out that information because, of course, there are privacy issues.
\n\nSo it's really difficult to make connections to other parents to be able to do these things like play dates. Organizing a birthday party, I found what you have to do is just take an invitation, give it to the nursery or the daycare center. Hopefully, they put it in the bags of the children that are friends with your kids, and then you kind of hope that they've got it and the right people are coming. You don't know who's coming to your kid's birthday party. And this just all seemed like there could be easy solutions to solve this to really build communities that center around your children.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I love that the purpose of playroom is to really build that community of social support that you need for parents. You mentioned you started to do some research on what that would look like. And I'm wondering if there was anything that surprised you as a result of that research.
\n\nMICHELE: Yes, I was quite surprised by...I suppose in some ways, it's reassuring actually as well that a lot of parents are going through similar struggles, struggling to connect to other families and not sort of in that way of, like, as you're...it's kind of a strange thing when you have kids because when they're very young, you can still socialize with your friends and people that you meet, maybe work colleagues.
\n\nBut as they get older, the focus becomes a little more around them and their friends, so making those connections are a little bit more difficult. So a lot of people struggle with that. A lot of people struggled with just keeping on top of everything. As you're saying, that cognitive load is very large; just trying to remember organizing dentist appointments, doctor's appointments, all of those things. It's a large cognitive load. And we've got enough tech now that we shouldn't have to...we should be able to put that load on to technology that can support us.
\n\nVICTORIA: And so you feel like it was reassuring almost that this was a common problem [laughs], and it wasn't just you.
\n\nMICHELE: Yeah, it's reassuring. It's always reassuring when you connect with other people to realize that they're going through similar things. It's not just you that's, you know, somehow not able to manage it all.
\n\nBut the other thing I found interesting is that there's a very large spectrum of how people feel about images and media associated with their children. So you've got a really wide spectrum of people who...some parents are very happy to share a lot about their children's lives, and their photos, and things that they're proud of on the major social media platforms.
\n\nAnd other parents are a lot more guarded, and they don't want to share those pictures or have other people share them on platforms. So there's a massive spectrum of how people feel about the use of images and media associated with their children and also related to that of data associated with their children.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, and I wanted to ask you about how privacy played into your planning on how you built the application.
\n\nMICHELE: This was important to me because I had both that experience, and also, I started to become more aware of the darker sides of the major platforms where there's perhaps not as much protection for children and that, of course, children can't consent. So I found...having spoken to all of these parents, the spectrum was very wide on what people were willing to share, and how much they knew about how their data was used, and how much privacy they had on these platforms. I really wanted to ensure that that spectrum was reflected.
\n\nIn playroom, within the app, it's built so that you have control over how much privacy, how openly your images, for example, of your child, can be shared. So it can be from having any images to be shared with anybody. You know, maybe we're at a birthday party, and there are a lot of children there. So there are lots of pictures where your child is in there; some people are very happy for those to be shared. Others are not wanting that shared anywhere.
\n\nSo within the app, you have control over how far those sorts of pictures can be shared and with whom. But the premise of playroom is that you're essentially in a network, a community where you know everybody associated with your children. So it's not that sort of massively open network. It's very much closed and associated with just the people you know are surrounding your children.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great, and it's very relevant for me. I just got a new camera, and I offered to take pictures for my niece's birthday party last weekend. And now I have all these photos that, I'm not sure how to share them with the parents and in a way that would be secure and provide those options. So I can understand the value of what you've built here.
\n\nMICHELE: Within playroom, there are bubbles. So if your child, for example, goes to nursery or daycare, they usually are in a room with children of a similar age, a playroom, that forms a bubble. So the nursery gives you a secure code that connects you to the other parents in that playroom. So that forms this bubble of parents associated with your children.
\n\nSo if you're taking photos at an event, so let's say you have a birthday party, you take photos. There are lots of other children in those photos. You can share those photos with the people in that bubble and in that bubble alone. And then, you can set your own personal media sharing settings so that you can make it clear to other parents that I don't want you to share this to wider social media. Watermark everything, very strongly watermarked or not downloadable. Or I'm happy for you to share it within playroom itself with other people that I know. So those settings are sort of adjustable depending on your preferences.
\n\nVICTORIA: Were there any obstacles that you faced from maybe a technology or a process perspective with implementing or building the app?
\n\nMICHELE: Yeah, so there are a couple of challenges. The biggest one is data and privacy. So, of course, security is a huge priority. That's going to be the center of priorities, really, so that everything is very, very secure. Parents, of course, are conscious of security surrounding their children. To be honest, as I was saying before, with sharing of media, it's quite on the spectrum, but either way, the priority is security and then privacy.
\n\nSo the use of data is an interesting one because a lot of traditional social networks, social media rely on the monetization of data. And again, this works on a spectrum where some parents flat out don't want any data associated with their children used or monetized in any way. Others are a lot more liberal about that.
\n\nMy personal view and from having spoken to a lot of parents, I think there's a good middle ground in which data is used in a responsible way for the purposes of actually benefiting parents in some way. So maybe it's the use of data rather than constant targeted ads, the use of data for the provision of services. Maybe within an area, you've got a high proportion of children there, and there needs to be better childcare provisions or play activity provisions.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. So make the data more relevant in the way that it's used to provide better services to parents, right?
\n\nMICHELE: Exactly, yeah, rather than that strict sort of targeted advertising.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. And so you've had to adjust your plan for monetization based on the needs of your users regarding privacy and security, and we love to hear that founders really care about privacy and security at thoughtbot, so...
\n\nMICHELE: Yes, exactly. Yeah, I think it's really, really important, and even more so now. There's really this acknowledgment of the very large open networks that they were never really built around children, of course. I mean, why would they be? But there's been a lot of controversy recently over parents having images and their children featured in videos and things online. The child accounts run by parents have millions of followers and videos, images, and things get saved thousands of times and commented in ways that are a little uncomfortable.
\n\nSo there is this sort of growing feeling that these large open networks...mostly parents just don't really know. And they do...when you become a parent, you're really excited, and you're proud, and you want to share these things with the world. And you perhaps don't think about those kinds of darker sides of things. That's really coming into the forefront now. So I think a sort of more closed community-based network is important.
\n\nVICTORIA: I agree. I've spent some time volunteering for organizations that work with children and privacy and human trafficking situations. And when you start to understand really how dark it can get for children, maybe too dark for this podcast, but security and privacy becomes the penultimate goal.
\n\nMID-ROLL AD:
\n\nthoughtbot is thrilled to announce our own incubator launching this year. If you are a non-technical founding team with a business idea that involves a web or mobile app, we encourage you to apply for our eight-week program.
\n\nWe'll help you move forward with confidence in your team, your product vision, and a roadmap for getting you there. Learn more and apply at tbot.io/incubator. That's tbot.io/incubator.
\n\nVICTORIA: You mentioned learning all of this as part of your journey on building the app. I'm curious what you brought from your background in neuroscience into the creation of the app and maybe how that played into how you built certain behaviors and things into the features.
\n\nMICHELE: Yeah, it's kind of interesting. So my neuroscience background, I guess, has really informed how I think about child development and brain development and the importance of the developmental stages of socializing with children. It was always at the front of my mind, and one of the things that really spurred me on to create this is really knowing that as children are developing, they are learning these really important social skills, and I just wanted to foster that as much as possible. And I thought, you know, it's actually really difficult to foster that social side of things if you don't have a community naturally around you.
\n\nSo I guess that's the main way that it's fed into my thinking about playroom. Other than that, I'm not too sure, actually. I think it's early stages, but I think it will probably influence some of the UX decisions, which is a big part of what I do in my day job, not the UX itself but the kind of psychology and neuroscience behind certain behaviors and how we interact with technology.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love to see founders and people who find their way into technology roles that usually come from a wide variety of backgrounds. And for me, neuroscience makes a lot of sense when you're doing these studies. Because you really are even, you know, from a scientific perspective, setting up a study and experiment to see how people will react to it. And you're proving your theory of is this how people will actually relate and connect inside the application?
\n\nMICHELE: Yes, absolutely, yeah. A lot of my job is data science. So I'm really excited to just get data in that I can really make decisions based on. I'm very much a kind of evidence-based person from my science background definitely.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, excellent. And maybe you could tell me more about a decision you had to make maybe early on in the development of the app that was challenging for you or you had to put a lot of time and thought into.
\n\nMICHELE: One of the things I found tricky, I suppose, is kind of being a solo founder, actually. Early on, I spent a lot of time trying to find a co-founder, and I really wanted somebody like a technical co-founder that could kind of fill the gap that I have. I don't have any formal experience in app development or anything like that, although a lot of my job involves coding and the data science side of things.
\n\nYeah, I spent a lot of time trying to find a technical co-founder and just really struggled to find somebody that had interest, and passion, and vision that would work for playroom. And so, after a while and after speaking to a couple of mentors, I decided to save that energy of trying to find somebody and just go at it alone for now. So, you know, open to finding somebody who has a similar vision for it, but yeah, that was really a difficult thing; it always is being a solo founder. But I just am really passionate about it and kind of filled the gaps with mentors and with advisors who can help me along the way.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's so interesting. I think deciding about who you're going to bring into your inner circle when you're passionate about an idea sounds like a very difficult decision.
\n\nMICHELE: Yeah, it is, yeah, and it's a strange sort of space as well because by no means does it need somebody who has children or has an interest there. But I think it does help with the passion because it's a really specific problem. And yeah, I just haven't found anyone yet.
\n\nVICTORIA: But you have found several mentors. That sounds like it's meeting your needs in that way for now. How did you go about finding the right people to give you advice in that way?
\n\nMICHELE: A combination really of just kind of stalking through LinkedIn and connecting to people, and just chatting to people, and then also through networks of other founders, and going through accelerators, things like that where I'm kind of formally introduced to mentors. They've maybe given me warm introductions, amazing women's network where people have either given warm introductions or volunteered themselves to give advice. That's been really, really great. You sort of feel like you've got a community there already.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. And did you focus on local groups in the UK, or did you go just online virtual groups? Which was easier for you?
\n\nMICHELE: A combination. So I went through an accelerator that was based in London, and so that introduced me to a few people more locally and quite a wide network, actually. I also joined a women of color network called Founderland, and they're based in Berlin. And they are a really amazing support network that has quite a wide international reach but really gives you a lot of support and guidance and is completely free and just really feels like a nice, supportive community.
\n\nVICTORIA: Sounds like building a community of founders is as important as building a community for people raising children, right? [laughs]
\n\nMICHELE: Yeah, definitely. [laughs] Yeah, I think so. I think any aspect of your life that is difficult benefits from a community really because, in almost all areas, there are people who have gone through something before that want to make it easy for you or who are going through something at the same time and want somebody to talk to or to support each other.
\n\nVICTORIA: The most important thing we can be doing is building community. You have your full-time position, and then you also have your children that you're raising, and you are founding this company. How do you make time for yourself and for your own peace of mind in the week?
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nMICHELE: With great difficulty, yeah, [laughter] and a very supportive partner. It's a real struggle, and things sometimes have to be slower than I would like. I've got an amazing team of app developers who are absolutely brilliant and are usually chasing me rather than me chasing them, which is always really great. Again, a fantastic support network, a big community of other parent founders who know how difficult it all is. And then it's just like a lot of working evenings, taking a day off to focus on things.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, we're learning a technique at thoughtbot with energy coaching and coaching people on when to take breaks and how to make sure you have time for lunch and take vacations, and all of that, which I think is important for your long-term ability to maintain your momentum.
\n\nMICHELE: Yes, definitely.
\n\nVICTORIA: But I've heard from many founders, you know, the support network is one of the most important things to be able to balance everything.
\n\nMICHELE: Yes, it really is, yeah. I am susceptible to burnout, and I know it now. And I should know better because I know the kind of neuroscience of it as well. And so I do have to be really careful. I don't push myself too much. One of the good things actually, you know, my kids are school age now. So they have these half-term breaks. They have regular breaks from school, and then summer holidays, of course, Christmas, all of that, and that sort of forces a time for you to break and then spend really quality time with the kids. So it's really, really good in that way.
\n\nVICTORIA: I appreciate kind of enforced time off. [laughs]
\n\nMICHELE: Yeah, I know. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: And really committing to it. It makes sense, yeah. [laughter]
\n\nMICHELE: I just realized that.
\n\nVICTORIA: UK people are better at that than I think in the U.S. generally, but it's certainly something I strive for. Sometimes even just going to a place where there's no internet access, [laughs] so good luck trying to reach me.
\n\nMICHELE: Oh yes, yeah.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, tell me more about your interaction with your developers' team. And you mentioned how wonderful they are. What is your communication patterns with them? Do you have regular meetings set up, or what is that like?
\n\nMICHELE: So it's a company that I met through YC summer school program, got sort of chatting to them. They're really, really great with communication. So we communicate on Slack every day, get updates, have little videos of updates, and work through any issues, and then kind of weekly meetings. And yeah, it's been a really, really positive experience.
\n\nI also have recently...on top of working full-time, and doing this, and having two kids I recently had...my husband was very ill and in hospital for two months just over Christmas. And then he came out of hospital for three days over Christmas, but then I was ill and in hospital for a month. So it's been absolutely crazy just trying to look after the kids and get work going, all of this. And they've been really consistent throughout. They've just kept everything ticking away. So that's been really, really great to have that, knowing that that continues on when I've had lots of life things going on.
\n\nVICTORIA: That ability for the team to manage themselves and be proactive in their communication is something I would always advise founders to look for in a development partner. You want to see that activity on a daily basis and see the product fairly often as well. You don't want to be surprised three months later with what they built and have it not be correct, what you're looking for.
\n\nMICHELE: Yeah, it's literally been back and forth of details that need ironing out. There's always a list that I can get to in my time, and there's the acknowledgment that I'm kind of working around a full-time job.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, what are you most excited about in your features roadmap that you could share with us?
\n\nMICHELE: I'm so excited by all of it. I have two things that I'm really excited about. The first is the bubble, so that's just the ability to immediately connect to parents in different contexts. So I can immediately connect to all the parents in my child's nursery. It makes it really easy to organize birthday parties, play dates in other contexts as well. Say, for example, my daughter started a gymnastics course. We pay for the whole gymnastics course. She then didn't really want to do it because she didn't know anybody there.
\n\nAnd so I think we managed about two lessons before she just really didn't want to do it anymore. And, again, I had this sort of feeling that if we were able to talk to the other parents and encourage some friendships and things, that would be really helpful for her. And just as things go along, the kids do become friends, and it's nice to be able to connect to the other parents in those contexts as well. Same thing for summer camps, any kind of setting where your kids are making new friends. And you want to get to know the parents of those friends and be able to connect to other families.
\n\nAnd then the other feature that I'm really excited about is just being able to with one click find things nearby, toilets, cafes, supermarkets really easily. Usually, you have, one, holding a baby, pushing a pram, toddler has to suddenly use the toilet, no idea where to find one. So just being able to one click of a button find that really near me, I think, will be really, really useful. So I'm really excited about that feature and just seeing it working nicely.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. And then you'll get to use it in real life. [laughs]
\n\nMICHELE: Yeah, exactly.
\n\nVICTORIA: Build the change you want to see in the world. I love it. And then, if you could go back in time and give yourself some advice when this all started now that you have this hindsight, what would you tell yourself?
\n\nMICHELE: I probably would tell myself to just keep at it. Maybe don't waste time trying to fill perceived gaps in your own abilities because I can learn stuff, and I can find support, and advisors, and mentors. So probably, that's what I would focus on. I spent a lot of time and energy trying to find a co-founder that would fill these gaps that I felt like I had.
\n\nI'd come from an academic and a neuroscience background, less commercial experience, so I worried about needing somebody who would have that business side, needing somebody to have that technical side. But, in fact, I've got a lot of those skills from my career and from my jobs anyway. I can learn a lot. I managed to get myself a Ph.D. in neuroscience from Cambridge University, so I can probably pick things up. [laughs] And I also can fill in any gaps with really great mentors and advisors.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And I love that this problem that you had drove you to find the solution and to push forward even if you didn't know all the answers.
\n\nMICHELE: Yeah. Exactly, yeah.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. What does success look like for playroom in the next six months or five years?
\n\nMICHELE: Six months is having the app in some of the nurseries that we've been working with so out with parents and making those communities. In five years, it's having hundreds of thousands of parents in communities and having them supported, connected to other parents, feeling like they have a safe space for themselves and their kids.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love it. And maybe you can mention even more about what the impact that can have on a parent who might be struggling to keep it all together.
\n\nMICHELE: Oh, a huge impact. So I know this personally because my husband was ill, and then I was ill. So we had three months, you know, a five-year-old and a two-year-old, each of us solo parenting and each of us with quite serious illnesses. And it was incredibly difficult. I was lucky enough that my next-door neighbor her kids are the same age and go to the same school. And actually, that's when I met them. So even though we were neighbors, we hadn't even met.
\n\nBut when she found out that my husband was unwell and I was looking after the kids on my own, really stepped up and helped look after my daughter, take some of the burden off of doing all the parenting on my own, plus visiting my husband in the hospital. And then reached out to a wider community within the area, like her friends that she knows from the school, and these parents really stepped up and helped me so much, like bringing food around and being that community that everybody wants and needs.
\n\nAnd I feel like a lot of it came about sort of accidentally because I was in this really difficult situation, but it helped me so much. I can't even describe how much. And I just think if I can do that for lots of other parents, it will make a huge impact because it is really difficult for some people, for a lot of people.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think the impact can't be underestimated enough. I know recently I signed up for Big Sisters and Big Brothers San Diego, so it's mentorship for children in the local county. And taking some of the training courses, they say in the U.S. alone, there are 3 million children who are just neglected or abused every year. Neglect could come from not having that social support network and not being able to look after your kids or not having other ways to connect with parents to get the support you need. So I think it's a really amazing product that you're building.
\n\nMICHELE: Oh, thank you. Yeah, I completely agree that there are so many ways that it can help and actually in just bringing together communities just, sort of locally centered around your children. And yeah, as you're saying, that neglect when there are situations where people actually...parents can't cope or need help and won't reach out. It's a sort of more natural way to have a community around you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Are there any other final takeaways you'd like to leave for listeners?
\n\nMICHELE: Well, I guess for the parents, parenting is hard, and it can be lonely, and that's okay. Just try and reach out to people as much as you can and go join playroom.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Michele.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Michele Veldsman.
Sponsored By:
Eric Liaw and Zack Willis are part of IVP, a leading venture firm with a 43-year history of partnering with entrepreneurs who are undaunted on the path to innovation.
\n\nWill talks to Eric and Zack about what has made IVP so long-lasting in the Venture Capital industry, how they help companies' portfolios, and the accomplishments they are most proud of.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. And with me today is Eric Liaw and Zack Willis, who are part of IVP, a leading venture firm with a 43-year history of partnering with entrepreneurs who are undaunted on the path to innovation. Zack, Eric, thank you for joining me.
\n\nERIC: Thanks, Will. It's great to be here, really appreciate it. And I got to say, as the Giant Robot Podcast, as a kid growing up, Transformers were my favorite toys. So this may be the closest I ever get to being a Transformer by being part of Giant Robots, so thank you for the opportunity.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nWILL: Love it. We love robots here, so it's perfect. All right, let's start here. For folks who may not know, tell us about IVP and what's on deck for 2023.
\n\nERIC: Well, you gave a great intro, so let me just add to that a little bit. You know, we're really proud of our history and our firm. We've been around since 1980. So we're one of the sort of original Silicon Valley venture firms. But when I speak about the firm in that context, I don't think it does justice to how the firm has expanded over the years and how our investment activity now encompasses not only the Bay Area but major U.S. markets like New York and LA. We have investments in Canada, Australia, and a number in Western and Central Europe as well.
\n\nAnd the common theme for us is that we're focused on working with entrepreneurs who, as you pointed out, are undaunted as they innovate and are pursuing dreams to create companies that will become recognizable in households and companies across the world, not just today but tomorrow as well. So that's really what IVP is all about. And it's what we're looking forward to in 2023 despite obviously the fact that the world is a little more challenging these days, a little bit more uncertain in, particular in the venture category.
\n\nBut we're really excited about the things that we're working on. We invested a lot in our team over a number of years. And, believe it or not, despite what you might read in headlines around venture activity, we are very much open for business in 2023 because we think that great entrepreneurs and great ideas come together at all times, regardless of whether the stock market is up or down. And our job is to find them, work with them, and become partners for three, four, or five, six, seven years, sometimes longer than that. So really, there's no bad time to start a company and get to know venture investors like us.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, definitely. Your company has been around for 43 years. Can you kind of tell me what has made you last that long, for 43 years? That's a long time to be in the venture capitalist world, especially before it was popular and fun.
\n\nERIC: You know, it's a great question. I've been at the firm for 11 years now. So a lot of the credit goes to people that...our founder, Reid Dennis, who started the firm. He's in his 90s now, so he has since retired, but a lot of credit goes to people that came before me and before Zack. And I think that's a common theme for any kind of organization or institution, no pun intended, because that's what the I in IVP stands for. But it goes to that sort of common thread. You have to evolve, especially in technology.
\n\nThe technology markets that were successful for IVP in the early '80s that's not really cutting-edge venture anymore. As an example, Seagate was one of our first investments ever when people weren't sure that personal hard drive technology would actually work or whether or not they're getting market demand. I mean, who would actually want storage themselves carried around with them at all times? And now, think about how much storage you have in your pocket. It's pretty gnarly to think about how much technology has advanced.
\n\nBut if you kept only thinking about, okay, I'm going to invest in the next hard drive, you would have really gotten stuck after that. And obviously, the things that have come since out of the minds of technology entrepreneurs have far exceeded what people at the time of the founding of IVP would have thought was possible. So I think that evolution is really important, staying fresh; technology trends evolve. In the early days of IVP and in Silicon Valley, there was a saying among venture capitalists that if you couldn't drive to the board meeting within 30 minutes, you didn't make the investment. That's just not true anymore. There's no way.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nERIC: And I think COVID has certainly proved that because investments are being made around the world. Now, maybe in hindsight, that was too fast. There was too much capital flowing around just to resume dating if you will. But the underlying theme is evolution, and I think it's teamwork. Because our founder, Reid, wanted the organization and firm to thrive well beyond his days as an active investor, and you can only do that with building a team that's multigenerational. And I'm proud and lucky to be part of an organization that's done that.
\n\nWILL: Awesome, awesome. Well, tell me about you. Tell me more about your background. How did you get started in the VC world?
\n\nERIC: You know, child of immigrants who came to the United States in the '70s from Taiwan. They met in New York City. Like many other people, moved to the burbs and they started a family. So I was born in New Jersey. My brother and I were both born there. I moved to LA when I was 12. I lived in Southern California until I went to college. Had the miraculous fortune to somehow get into Stanford and went to school sort of in the late '90s into the early 2000s, as good fortune would have it, in the middle of the internet bubble.
\n\nSo I had kind of a front-row seat to that era of technology, innovation not knowing anything about tech when I showed up in Palo Alto in the fall of '96. I got exposed to venture capital while I was in school. There was a pretty memorable, at least for me, speech that I went to. John Doerr, now retired from Kleiner Perkins, was on stage in the engineering auditorium and gave a speech about how Amazon was going to change the world. And this was probably in the fall of '98.
\n\nAnd he was right. I just think maybe the timeframe was slightly off, but he was right. I mean, at the time, it was books and CDs, and to some of our listeners, CDs was actually how you used to listen to music.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nERIC: But you sort of had this really expansive vision. And it was a really exciting way to understand that there are ways to be involved in the technology ecosystem without necessarily being a software engineer. Because I tried my hand at that, and I wasn't anywhere close to being top of the class, let's put it that way. And so, I wanted to be involved in the industry but also kind of think about how I could play to whatever strengths I had.
\n\nAnd then the sort of window into venture capital sort of started to open in terms of my awareness of it. I ended up working at Morgan Stanley for a couple of years out of college, where I got to learn more about technology from a business lens. But I always knew I had an angle or a desire to become a venture capitalist. So got into the industry; it'll be 20 years ago this summer. And I've been fortunate enough to keep doing it for that period of time. So that's kind of the medium-length answer to how I got started [laughs] in the business.
\n\nZACK: I don't have quite the story that Eric does there. [laughs] But venture capital was never on my radar. I went to college to be a programmer, and that's where I started out. My first real job was at Anheuser-Busch in Los Angeles, and go Lakers.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nZACK: Me and Eric have some LA routes [laughter], so that was a great job. I had a ton of fun. And I just got a call from a recruiter one day that a VC firm was looking for a job as an IT manager. I was very unqualified for the position, went through the interview process. It took like six months. I think I met everybody at the firm, got the job. And that was, like Eric, that was about 20 years ago now. And I have just been in the industry ever since. So it's a great place to be, and I have no plans on leaving.
\n\nWILL: Oh, that's amazing. I love it. So tell me this, beyond dollars invested...because honestly, when I think of venture capitalists, it is mostly about the money. Hey, how much money have you done? How much money have you sent in? What does that look like? But I don't think we ever cover the next step. What else is there? So beyond dollars, what does IVP do to help companies' portfolio?
\n\nERIC: Capital is definitely part of it. It's venture capital, so let's be real. You can't ignore that part of it. But I do think that it is only a part of it because what I think sometimes people don't really think through...because the media in particular likes to write about the day a company goes public or if there's a big acquisition like it all just happened at that one moment, but that is so far from the truth.
\n\nI mean, the amount of work that entrepreneurs and people at startups put in to drive to those outcomes that sort of culminate in that moment is really one of the things I respect most and enjoy most to be part of as a venture capitalist. And so what our role in that can often be is actually quite varied because no two companies are the same. I mean, there are some common themes, but no two companies are the same. And so how we try and get involved is tailored to what a given company needs at a given point in time.
\n\nNow, some of the common threads might be working with companies to help build out their teams. We do a lot of that because, ultimately, the team is who's at a company every day. I mean, investors aren't there every day and frankly, if we are, probably something's gone wrong.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nERIC: That team is important. And we like to think about getting involved in high-leverage moments. And there are a number of different ones, and Zack is part of this too. So a high-leverage hire is probably someone at the C-level or VP-level because that person then recruits and builds out a team. It's different...not to say that individual contributors aren't also important, but we're trying to think about those key players, moments where we can help, I guess, in a biblical turn, teach people how to fish instead of fish for them. That's our mentality, and recruiting is part of it.
\n\nSometimes these are partnerships that can drive significant revenue lines. Sometimes it's debating what a business model should be in a given company. A great example on some of these is at both Coinbase and Discord; there was debate around what the business models ought to look like. Coinbase is very transactional. We pushed them to sort of think through a recurring revenue component, some other services that they could have so that their revenue could be a little smoother and not just dependent on transaction volumes.
\n\nAt Discord, they were thinking through raising money to start an in-house gaming studio. We kind of said, "You know, that's a really competitive industry, and the content creation costs just keep going up. How about a different model? Maybe we can think about a subscription service." And that became what drives the revenue today around buying advanced features for your private servers and things like that.
\n\nThere are a lot of moments...unfortunately, sometimes our companies become targets of bad actors, which brings Zack back to the forefront. Part of the benefit of having a portfolio is we see a lot of these different incidents. And Zack is someone that we sort of unleash with our companies when they face some of these challenges, you know, I got a hack, or I have this going on, and Zack jumps in. You should talk about some of the situations that you've had to deal with. And the bat phone rings when those things happen, and we send them straight to Zack.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nZACK: Yeah, I mean, we definitely do everything we can. There definitely have been times where it's, all right; this happened to us; what do we do? How can we help this company? And I've really been deeply involved in security most of my career, and it's kind of where I wanted to go. And I pride myself on that. And we have great security here, and we try to instill the same in our portfolio companies.
\n\nAnd recently, we developed these jump guides, which is another way we're helping portfolio companies. So they're kind of like how-to lists. So there would be how to hire your first CFO, how to go IPO, that sort of stuff, and I just authored a couple, actually, that are about how to keep your company safe and how to keep your employees safe. And it's all just tips. It's nothing revolutionary, mind-blowing, but it's just stuff that every company should be doing to keep themselves safe.
\n\nAnd so that's really the message that we try to give to our portfolio companies. We definitely internalize it as well. I think really the key to good security is there's a partnership. There has to be a partnership between you with, the security team, and all the employees. You can have all the layers of defense you want. You can have your firewalls, your antivirus, et cetera, but if your employees don't understand the value of security and why they shouldn't click on that link or they shouldn't download that file, it's meaningless.
\n\nIt's very important to instill that, just have open communication. And what I tell everybody at IVP is that security is in your hands. We're doing what we can, but it's in your hands. So, ultimately, it falls on them. And it's a scary time, you know, new stuff coming out all the time. But, yeah, we do our best to keep on top of it and our portfolio companies as well.
\n\nERIC: Zack is being very modest. But if you take a step back, if you think about, you know, in any of our own lives, which there's a parallel, I think for companies, there are certain moments when you're facing a tough spot, and people that were there for you and helped you are the ones that are most memorable. And when there are good days, things are pretty easy. And those hard days are where we want to make sure that we're there for our companies.
\n\nAnd some of those hard days are in times like these where companies have to make some tough decisions around their cost structure because the environment has changed; some of these are, as Zack points out when they're facing a hack or a breach of some sort. And so, ideally, some of those you're preventing before they happen. But in the moment, Zack is a great ally and asset for a lot of our companies.
\n\nAnd some of these also happen on a day-to-day basis. It works great to have someone like Zack on our team. He can kick around and be a source for feedback for some product testing, which he does with a lot of companies that are in the portfolio. And actually, he does that when we're evaluating companies too, and sometimes they don't score so well on the Zack Willis meter. [laughter] And then we have productive feedback to give them to think about things as they refine what they're working on.
\n\nSo it's one of those things where there are high-leverage moments, but we really focus on trying to be involved but also available. And again, this is repetitive to what I said earlier; no two companies are the same. And these are long-term partnerships. We want to make sure that we help them succeed, and that's what it's about.
\n\nZACK: I agree, and availability for sure. It can be around the clock. You don't know when these things are going to happen. And definitely, we pride ourselves on that, on being available for our companies when they need us.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing. It sounds like maybe the secret sauce is your long-term relationship with the company. It's not just drop millions of dollars into the company and see you later. Hopefully, you sell out; whatever, you make money. We'll get it back. It's not the day-to-day, but when it gets hard when we can help you when we can support you.
\n\nAnd we kind of have that same mindset with thoughtbot. We don't just try to build software and say, "Hey, you're on your way." But, no, hey, can we help you hire developers, anyone to help you with this and make sure that it's not going to fall off as soon as we leave? But that long-term thing. So sometimes, when you're in a long-term game, it can get kind of messy. So, professionally speaking, what keeps you up at night?
\n\nERIC: One of the challenges of being an investor is that you can never be too happy or too sad, particularly when we have a portfolio. So if you think about it, to your point about being involved, it's not just writing a check or investing and then say, "Here's the money; call me later." We're active partners. We take board seats in two-thirds of the companies that we invest in. And that's not a stat I throw out there to say it's a contest to see how many boards you're on. No, it's actually a reflection that when you're on a board, you have a responsibility to be helpful and involved and help steward the entire company on behalf of all shareholders.
\n\nAnd so that's part of being involved in a portfolio of 80 or 100 companies that are active right now. There are going to be some that are having good quarters and some that are having tougher quarters. And so, collectively, we try and be even-keeled as long as we're making forward progress. And Zack is a guy who runs sub three-hour marathons, but some miles are harder than others. And he can talk more about that. But there are going to be some periods in a company's journey that are harder than others.
\n\nAnd so we just try and make sure we're sort of focused in the right direction and ultimately that the right goal is in mind. And right now, probably what's topical is it's harder for companies to raise money at any scale. You see, this sort of capital markets have really reversed course, and this is by design with the Fed raising rates and trying to intentionally slow the economy down for a whole host of reasons we probably don't have to get into on this podcast, but it's working.
\n\nAnd what does that mean for our companies? It's harder to generate revenue. People are watching their budgets, whether they're consumers or enterprises, which then means that they need to watch their operating budgets. And that's why you've seen a lot of the layoffs that have happened across the technology sector, in particular over the last nine months. And it's not just startups, you know, it's Google announcing one of the biggest cuts that they've ever had in their history. Microsoft did that yesterday.
\n\nSo it is a more challenging time, and it's something a lot of people in the industry hadn't been through because we've had the benefit of such a long bull market run. But for better or for worse, at this point in my career, I've seen it more than a few times. And so this is, I think, an area where we can be a guide partner, sometimes just a sounding board because it's not easy to make these decisions.
\n\nZACK: First of all, I'll give thoughtbot a quick plug since you guys really helped us out. I guess this was about seven years ago now. We worked with you guys a couple years to get the first iteration of this system that we have that helps us...kind of part of our secret sauce that helps us find companies to invest in. So I'm very thankful for that.
\n\nAnd as far as what keeps me up at night, I mean, aside from my cat, and my dog, and my anxiety, [laughs] it's going back to what we talked about before; it's really security. Did we do everything? Are we staying on top of the latest threats? Are we helping out our companies enough? There was an interesting article that just came out a few days ago that talked about how PE companies and some VCs, private equity and venture capital, are requiring security audits of their firms before they invest in them.
\n\nAnd so before they'll make the acquisition, they'll run into an audit, and they'll say, "Okay, well, you're missing these things. We're not going to invest in you until you do these things, until you have two-factor authentication until you have this, until you have that." I think that's an interesting trend. For PE, it's a little bit of a bigger deal since they acquire the company. It's still a way that I believe that we can protect ourselves and our portfolio companies. It helps protect our reputation, helps protect their reputation, and it really gives us the chance to get in there at the beginning and say, "Hey, these things are missing. This is what you should focus on security-wise.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing, amazing.
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\n\nWe'll help you move forward with confidence in your team, your product vision, and a roadmap for getting you there. Learn more and apply at tbot.io/incubator.
\n\nWILL: I wanted to take a step back; when you mentioned Coinbase and Discord, and you said that you helped them set the direction going forward. Honestly, we may not even know those companies if their original plan would have gone forward. How much has your 43 years of experience helped guide that direction with Coinbase and Discord?
\n\nERIC: You know, there's a saying that history doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes. And so I think that's probably the mentality that we try and take from our collective experience as a team that we try to bring to each company. And we meet as a team on Mondays and Thursdays, and it's a very broad meeting compared to most of the investment world in terms of who attends that meeting internally. And so we talk about companies that we're considering and contemplating. We talk about companies we've already invested in.
\n\nAnd I think one of our core cultural attributes that is a great strength is putting our best thinking against some of these problems. Again, when things are going well, those are short conversations. But when someone says, "Hey, you know, I'm working with this company, and we're kind of facing this issue. What do people think? What have we seen that's kind of analogous?" And that's where we get some of these ideas from.
\n\nSo, for example, on the Coinbase example, we've been involved in a lot of marketplace businesses and exchange businesses. Those are great business models. And Coinbase has a fantastic management team. But thinking about this, this is pre-IPO and pre-direct listing, and when they want to be public one day, you know, there is a benefit to having a recurring revenue stream, a little more visibility. And so, how could we layer that on and make that, hopefully, over time, a bigger and bigger part of the business?
\n\nI think in Discord; we had some perspective that led us to invest in the company. In the first place, we've had a lot of success in gaming companies like Zynga, and Supercell, and Niantic, amongst others. We could see how passionate gamers are and, how they come in all different shapes, sizes, flavors, geographies, and how having a communication tool like Discord is really a benefit.
\n\nHowever, we also saw that the cost of producing games continues to go up. And if it's not kind of your full-time job, the likelihood you're going to nail something that a very competitive and discerning universe of gamers wants to play is probably not that high. So how do we think about harnessing that energy, and the talent, and the platform you build in a different way? So I'd say those are kind of some examples where we could think about things we've seen in our perspective but apply it to what's relevant for a specific company.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing. I love it. Yeah, I've heard the gaming business can be brutal. What IVP accomplishments are you most proud of?
\n\nERIC: Well, maybe I'll break that into two parts. I think inside and outside the firm; I'm really proud of the team that we've built. And when I joined the firm 11 years ago, we were probably 20 people, 25 people in total. Now we're 65 people. And that doesn't seem like a lot in comparison to big tech companies or hyper-growth startups. But in a business-like venture capital, really what we're doing in addition to providing capital, internally, it's a lot of discussion, decision-making, ideas, thinking. That is hard to do the way that we do it if we get too big.
\n\nAnd that goes back to the size of our Monday meetings, which is rather large and includes a wide representation of the firm. But I'm really proud of the team that we've built. I'm really proud of the capabilities that we've enhanced on the technology side. Really, Zack drove a lot of this in the time that he's been with the firm, and we're leaps and bounds ahead of where we were with your help as well. I think Zack was alluding to what we think is one of our secret weapons, our early detection system, so we're really proud of that.
\n\nAnd then I'd say externally, or with our companies, we've had 131 of them go public. We had 15 of them do that in 2021, none did in '22. So the market's changed quite a bit. Those are accomplishments that, like I pointed to previously, they're milestone events. The pride comes in knowing that these companies that we've worked with have put in the work over years, at minimum, years, to get to that point. And that gives, I think, all of us a collective sense of accomplishment.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing.
\n\nZACK: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. In my, I guess, almost eight years here now, we've grown a ton in our hiring. Our team is amazing. It's really the reason why I'm still here, why our turnover is basically nothing. We hire great people. And during that time, we've raised some great funds. We've invested in amazing companies. We've helped out a lot of entrepreneurs. It's just across the board. I've been in this industry a while. I feel like IVP is definitely a unique VC firm, and I'm proud of what we do.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing. One of my favorite questions that I like to ask on the podcast is, if you could go back in time at the very beginning and give yourself advice, what would it be?
\n\nZACK: For me, it's stay relevant, I think. And to me, it just means being more involved in everything. Put yourself out there. Be bold. Learn about different areas in the company. Try to attend different meetings. Talk to different departments, and really just make yourself visible. When you do that, I think the rest just kind of falls into place. And it took me quite a while in my career to really realize that. And it's still tough now, but it's something that I'm always trying to do. Historically, I'm a very shy person, but just putting myself out there and doing the best I can in any situation that I find myself in.
\n\nERIC: I think a couple of things, balance, and patience are probably two things, not trying to force it. So I think there's a lot of Yoda Jedi wisdom that probably would be useful. So if you're sort of...when I was first starting out, you're younger and impetuous at times and want to make things happen because you have such a strong desire to try and do something the right way and make a positive impact. But the hardest thing to learn is sometimes the right thing to do is actually to do nothing in the investment world. That is a hard thing for a lot of motivated, energetic Type A people to do, and yet it's sometimes the exact right thing you should be doing.
\n\nSo I think it's hard to hear that when you're starting out in your 20s. And now that I'm a little older than that, [laughs] I think I can look back and appreciate it. But that's probably, as I think through that question, maybe the best piece of advice. And yet, like a lot of things, we were all taught while we were younger from people who had more experience, or age, or wisdom, or whatever, there are just some things you hear, and it's not real until you've kind of lived it.
\n\nAnd sometimes, in some of those dimensions, you have to make your mistakes before you appreciate them. You guys probably had this experience writing code. Like, there's got to be...I could just do it this way, and it'd be fast. And then you realize it wasn't really that sound or forward-compatible or something. You had to go back and rewrite your architecture, and that's a pain. So I think it's that same approach, thinking with balance.
\n\nZACK: Just to add to what I was saying before, too, I think one of the things also would have been, you know, find something you're passionate about and do it every day. That wasn't the case early on in my career, and I turned to running, and I turned to working out. And I do something every morning, and that really, really grounds me. It helps me focus helps me plan out the day. And it's really just my time that's crucial. And whether it's running, whether it's meditating but just taking some time for yourself, you know, energize yourself, take care of yourself. And that goes a long way in the workplace as well.
\n\nWILL: I love it, yeah. That's why it was one of my favorite questions, just learning from your mistakes, learning from what you did in the past. It's amazing. So I love that.
\n\nERIC: Yeah, I mean, since Zack brought up the Lakers, [laughter] and this isn't the Lakers, but it's basketball-related, you guys might remember this old Michael Jordan commercial. He talks about I've missed this many free throws and this many shots and something like, my team has trusted me 80 times to win the game in the fourth quarter, and I've missed. The tagline is something like, I have failed over and over and over and over again, and that is why I succeed. There's definitely some of that in the venture business and the advice I think we could all give to our younger selves.
\n\nWILL: Oh, yeah, getting back up. Keep going, yeah.
\n\nERIC: The same thing with Dwyane Wade commercial, you know, get knocked down eight times, get up nine, kind of the same thing.
\n\nWILL: Love it. What's something you would love the audience to know about IVP?
\n\nZACK: I think our team and just the way we hire. We hire amazing people. They're smart. They're kind. They're low ego. They're thoughtful. I'm not going to say it's completely different from others, but it is, in my experience, a different culture. And we all get along great. We mesh really well, and we continue to hire great. We hired almost 20 People in the last year and a half. That's a lot, but we still manage to maintain the same level of talent. We help our portfolio companies do hires as well. I think that's one of our benefits. We know talent, and we know it internally, and we know it externally. And it's just a great culture to be a part of.
\n\nWILL: Amazing.
\n\nERIC: The thing to think about with us is if you're an entrepreneur building a company, it's tough. Sometimes it's really lonely. We aspire to be partners with entrepreneurs in good times and in bad. We're not the flashiest ones out there. We're not trying to see who has the most Twitter followers. But when you need something, we're there. I think that is something people lost sight of or didn't care as much about in the last couple of years when things were easy. They're not so easy now.
\n\nAnd we take pride in these long-term partnerships, which is why we're highly selective in the number of companies we invest in every year. We're never going to be the most active, but we put a lot of our work, time, effort, energy, mental capacity alongside the capital that we bring to our companies. And I think that's been a great formula for us over our history, and it'll continue to be.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing. To summarize, I know each VC firm has their own DNA. What makes IVP different from its competitors?
\n\nERIC: I'd say a couple of things. And again, I've only worked at two firms, and so there are a lot of firms I haven't worked at, so I don't want to attempt to speak too much into the intricacies of how they work. But I'd say inside our four walls, our culture of teamwork and collective outcome and benefit and effort is really special. Every investment we approach has access to the entire firm's resources and capabilities. And I think it's really different.
\n\nI mean, we're very happy to partner with one another internally, help each other out, help companies that we might not be mostly directly involved with for the benefit of our firm, and our investors, and the companies that we work with. And I think that is something that a lot of firms talk about. I don't think it's always true at a lot of firms. And so, for us, it's really special and something that we've worked really hard to build as a culture, and keep as a culture, and preserve every day.
\n\nBecause I think it's easy to feel like you're on an island in this business at times, but we want to make sure that we feel that connectivity as a team. For our entrepreneurs, we are here to work with you and support you, probably not daily because I think, again, that goes back to having the right people, but weekly, monthly, quarterly, over years, that's our approach. We believe great things take time to build.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing. Zack, I want to summarize this portion with you. How do you keep your firm and your employees safe from online threats? Do you share that with your portfolio companies? Because I know especially in the tech world and in the news, you're hearing about those scammers, those threats, summarize it for me, like, how do you do that?
\n\nZACK: There are a lot of pieces, of course. And as I was talking about before, I think the most important thing is really just getting buy-in from the whole firm. Me and my team we definitely try out the latest products, get the top-of-the-line security stuff, and really make sure that that stack is solid and that we're monitoring everything and getting the buy-in.
\n\nSo it's a lot of training. It's keeping them up to date. It's instilling the messages. Like, when I first started here, I did a security training. The firm had never done a security training. We were pretty light on security at the time. And so, I tried to make the presentation fun and a little scary. So I brought in the FBI.
\n\nWILL: Wow.
\n\nZACK: The FBI scared everybody a little bit. And then I came on and just talked about what to do and not to do. And I actually had a song composed [laughs] about security and what employees should be doing. It was just a funny jingle that people still sing today. [laughter] But yeah, I think just making it memorable. And we have a Slack channel called Tech Talks. I'm always updating the latest information on there on different breaches and different attacks we're seeing, and what we can do to prevent that, and what our employers should be doing. And absolutely, that extends to our portfolio companies.
\n\nAnd those jump guides, I believe they're out now with all my technical recommendations. We use those internally. I definitely gave those to the firm but also to our portfolio companies. And there's some interesting stuff in there that you may not think of, like removing your information from the internet. Like, get a company, Optery, something like that, which we pay for for all our employees, and it scrubs the internet of your information, and that's great. It cuts back on phishing, spam calls, you know, just going beyond too.
\n\nWe also have this product that we use that monitors employees' personal email addresses for breaches. So we're not just caring about IVP. We're also caring about what someone's doing in their personal life because that can also lead to a breach of IVP. So yeah, so someone's Gmail account gets exposed, and we're going to know about it, and we can let them know.
\n\nAnd then, really, it's just staying on top of things. One of the things we just did, you know, passwords are the worst, everyone knows that, and so we just rolled out this product called Beyond Identity. And it's a password list provider. The difference between them and other password list providers is they offer a layer of security on top of the password list. So it's not just convenient; it's also added security, which was always my worry about going password list; it's just more convenient and less secure. But this company does it right. And it's things like that, just staying ahead of it. All right, passwords are a problem? Let's get rid of passwords. Following those trends and keeping up to date.
\n\nERIC: I mean, Zack is a very tough critic. So he's given a couple of shout-outs which means he really likes those products, and I'm glad that we have them. And I very much remember that training session that he did for us or organized. And we did a refresh of it a couple of years ago. I think we've done at least two of them now. It sounds really boring [laughs], and maybe I'm just kind of a geek in that way, but that was one of the most memorable training sessions that I've ever been part of in my time at IVP.
\n\nAnd we had Zack's buddy from the FBI come in and give kind of an overview of all the vulnerabilities that they see, and that's obviously very, very cutting edge. And they had some footage of people sort of passing off USB sticks here and there in subways in New York City. So you can kind of see them go in in one entrance. They got a different shot of the camera while they're on the tracks, and they go their separate ways.
\n\nI mean, this is straight out of some spy stuff, and it's happening. It makes you think...that's an extreme; we know we're talking about sort of most likely state-sponsored bad guys, but the ones that are commercially oriented, I think maybe they're not as frequent...they're more frequent, and so we have to be on guard all the time, especially as a firm that does have access to and move around a lot of money.
\n\nI'm geeking out because I learned a lot from it. And Zack also likes to keep all of us on our toes with a lot of sort of...it's like the security equivalent of pop quizzes. He's always planting fake links and stuff to see who clicks on them. [laughter] And then he's pretty kind because he doesn't out you by name when we talk about them on Mondays. [laughter]
\n\nBut he says something like, "Hey, you know, there are 65 people who got this test, and the good news is that 50 of you passed. The bad news is that 15 people didn't, which means that could have resulted in a lot of different intrusions. So try and be better," so stuff like that. And it is actually kind of fun and reminds us that while we're a venture capital firm, we are people that comprise the firm just like everybody else, and we got to be vigilant.
\n\nZACK: That's a good point, too, just about the FBI and them showing us all the crazy stuff. I mean, one of the things that they really tried to drill in, and I still talk to my friend in the FBI today, is VCs are a target. VCs are absolutely a target. And it's not necessarily what you have; it's what you're perceived to have.
\n\nAnd so, okay, they probably think we have a lot of IP and a lot of things like that that we don't necessarily have, but they're still going to try to get in. They're still going to try to hack their way in. And I think that's important, too, just instilling that message like, yeah, we're a VC firm. We're a target; you need to understand that; here's why. And that's true for most firms. We're not special. But it's definitely something you need to instill.
\n\nERIC: Oh, Zack's probably going to cringe if he hears me say this, but I definitely take the point that you know, you don't have to be faster than the bear; you just got to be faster than the next guy. So you just have [laughter] to be more secure and more of a pain to try and penetrate, and they'll move on to somebody else.
\n\nZACK: I mean, that's totally true. That's a big part of security. If they come knocking on your door, and you have that deadbolt, and the next house doesn't, then yeah, they're going to go the easier path. So that's absolutely true, Eric.
\n\nWILL: Well, you're doing something right because he remembered the training, and he enjoys it. [laughter] You're doing something right.
\n\nERIC: I guess I'm just weird in that way, but it was actually kind of fun.
\n\nWILL: Well, thank you, Eric and Zack, for being on here. It was amazing. Where can the audience find more information about you, connect with you?
\n\nERIC: www.ivp.com is probably the best place. It sounds so old school, but it's the most relevant. Follow us on Twitter, LinkedIn. But I've had a great time talking with you. This has been a lot of fun. Hopefully, you got some nuggets for your audience, too.
\n\nZACK: Yeah, I agree. Thank you very much for having us. This was a lot of fun.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I've really enjoyed it, so thank you.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guests: Eric Liaw and Zack Willis.
","summary":"Eric Liaw and Zack Willis are part of IVP, a leading venture firm with a 43-year history of partnering with entrepreneurs who are undaunted on the path to innovation.\r\n\r\nWill talks to Eric and Zack about what has made IVP so long-lasting in the Venture Capital industry, how they help companies' portfolios, and the accomplishments they are most proud of.","date_published":"2023-03-02T00:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/0b7deb3c-ddb3-49b0-a653-8e349d934b62.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":37116946,"duration_in_seconds":2299}]},{"id":"1bfd0d9d-2966-4a8c-9ced-40a304f5d99f","title":"463: EmergeOne with Aarish Shah","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/463","content_text":"Aarish Shah is the Founder of EmergeOne and Projected.ai and host of Off Balance and Nothing Ventured Podcast.\n\nWill talks to Aarish about having the venture capitalist money idea and having that \"aha!\" moment that it could work, what drives him and having a purpose of helping others, and using his podcast to teach lessons that he's learned along the way.\n\n\nEmergeOne\nProjected.ai\nOff Balance and Nothing Ventured Podcast\nFollow EmergeOne on LinkedIn, Facebook, YouTube, or Twitter.\nFollow Aarish Shah on LinkedIn or Twitter.\nFollow thoughtbot on Twitter or LinkedIn.\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nWILL: This is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. And with me today is Aarish Shah, Founder of EmergeOne and Projected.ai and host of Off Balance and Nothing Ventured Podcast. Aarish, thank you for joining me.\n\nAARISH: It's great to be here, Will. Really happy to be talking to you today.\n\nWILL: Yeah, I'm excited. I can't wait to dive in and learn more about you. Tell me about your journey, how it all started.\n\nAARISH: Wow, it's a bit of a long run. I'll try and condense it. But I am 44 years old at the moment. About 20 years ago, I came out of uni with a degree in languages which I found was sort of useful but not essential. So I ended up for a few years doing kind of the normal corporate thing. I worked with PriceWaterhouseCoopers, Nortel Networks, and then Deutsche Bank. And I qualified as an accountant along the way, so I'm effectively what you guys would consider a CPA over in the U.S. \n\nI then kind of up sticks, and I spent the next ten years of my life running a group of manufacturing and trading businesses alongside a property portfolio out in Papua New Guinea, which is a very, very interesting place to be, definitely one of the hardest environments to be building and running businesses for many reasons. I've had everything from people coming into one of my offices with guns. I had one of my factories burned to the ground and everything in between. So really, really great learning experience and certainly amazing to learn about physical products, you know, the manufacturing and distribution and sales and so on of actual physical products. \n\nAnd then, in 2015, I came back to the UK. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. And so I had a bunch of coffees with people and ended up as founding CFO in an EdTech venture, which was a joint venture between Eton College, which is one of the premier schools here in the UK where famously all of our Prime Ministers seem to come from, and Founders Factory which is an accelerator that was founded by Brent Hoberman of lastminute.com fame. So that was really exciting. \n\nI was straight off the boat from Papua New Guinea, sitting 10 feet away from Brent Hoberman, learning everything that there was to learn about the tech sector here in the UK and beyond. And had a really great couple of years working in that business and learning really everything there was to know about the VCA ecosystem, the early stage ecosystem, how to build products, how to finance them, how to sell into new territories (We were operating in China at the time.) and all sorts of other things. \n\nAnd then, in 2017, I decided it was time to move on. And I became what you guys would probably call a fractional CFO. So I worked across C through Series C businesses, everything from EdTech to FinTech, D2C, B2B marketplaces, beauty tech, you name it, kind of been there, seen it, and done it. And in 2019 and 2020, started getting approached by FDs and CFOs that wanted to work with me. And I really doubled down at that stage and decided to build EmergeOne into what it is today, which is a consultancy providing CFO services to venture-backed tech startups and scaleups. \n\nSo we work with a huge bunch of businesses here in the UK that are backed by VCs, some of the big names here like Hoxton Ventures, Stride, Octopus, Outlier, Founders Factory, and others. And I'm really, really passionate about helping founders build their businesses in a scalable and sensible way, I guess, especially in the current environment. And so we're really lucky that we're trusted by these VCs and the founders that we work with to deliver really great services to them. \n\nAnd then, a couple of years ago, because I've been working kind of in the tech sector for so long, I started noodling around with a couple of ideas of projects that I wanted to move forward with. I raised a really small kind of pre-seed back in 2021 and started building a product, which is today Projected.ai, which we have just launched. We're in the process of launching at the moment. \n\nAnd what that is is effectively an email newsletter, if you can believe it, providing internal and external data to our client businesses. So effectively, it's like a flash report of your financials alongside some really sort of personalized news about what's going on in your industry, alongside some other sort of bits and bobs that we're currently building in. \n\nOn top of that, a couple of years ago, again, I realized that I had a really good network of people that I had relationships with, and I decided to launch the Nothing Ventured Podcast to start speaking with people that operated in the VC ecosystem here in the UK and beyond. So I've been really fortunate to have guests like Hussein Kanji from Hoxton Ventures, Mac Conwell from RareBreed ventures in the U.S., and various others. And I really got to talk to them about why they got into venture, what they see is happening in the market, what are they excited about. And all those sorts of things.\n\nBecause, to be honest, I'm really passionate about learning and understanding about where people are coming from, why they do what they do, what drives them, what they're passionate about, but equally, the sort of challenges they've also faced. And that's been going now for 60-odd episodes. We're launching Season 4 shortly. And I'm really lucky and fortunate to have been able to do that. \n\nAnd then finally, at the back end of 2022, so in December, actually, just as I was jumping on a plane, I sort of released something on LinkedIn, which was like 100 lessons that I've learned as a CEO and CFO over the last 20 years of operating. And unexpectedly, the thing went viral. I've had close to a million views on it, thousands of likes, hundreds of comments, and reshares. \n\nAnd I decided to turn what was effectively just a list into a short-form podcast, which has turned into Off Balance. So we're releasing that daily and kind of expanding on each and every one of those topics that I went through in that list. So, yeah, look, I mean, I'm someone with a finger in a lot of pies. I'm a massive generalist, so I love getting involved in different projects at different times. But I'm really fortunate to be able to do what I love doing. It's just been a wild journey for the last seven years, certainly, but the whole 20 years of my life.\n\nWILL: I love it. I love it. I love every idea that you had weaves into that venture capitalist money idea. So let's start at EmergeOne. When did you have that aha moment that this could work?\n\nAARISH: So I work a lot in strategy, so there are two forms of strategies, emergent and there's defined. So most people know about a strategy that is written down; it's a playbook. They go out, and they pursue it. For me, it was really emergent. Firstly, I realized that there were not that many great CFOs operating in tech, certainly here in the UK, because it's, to an extent, a nascent industry. And whilst there are great accountants, and there are great finance leaders in larger businesses, actually doing that in a startup or a scaleup is very, very different. \n\nNow, don't get me wrong, there are some great CFOs out there. It's just that I think there are far fewer than many people [laughs] assume there to be. So that was kind of the first thing that twigged with me. And I was seeing a lot of businesses picking up people and calling them a CFO when I knew for a fact there was no way that they really had the experience to be able to call themselves a CFO or to operate as one. So I guess that was the first aha moment. \n\nAnd the second aha moment was as I started talking to more and more VCs via the podcast, and just generally because I was out in the ecosystem talking to them, I realized that actually, the work that I was doing was not being driven necessarily by the client companies but actually by the VCs themselves because they wanted to make sure that having invested 1,2,5, 10 million pounds or dollars that those companies were in good hands and safe hands and that capital was being managed effectively and efficiently. \n\nAnd obviously, we're sitting in January of 2023 now. Never has that been more appropriate. More and more businesses are struggling. They're struggling to raise. They're having to extend their runways and figure out how to manage their cash in a much, much more significant way than maybe they had to two or three years ago. And so, for us, that's like a massively important thing. And having a great CFO in your business is going to help you do that. \n\nAnd therefore, we are getting approached more and more both by VCs as well as by companies that are just on the lookout for someone to help them. It was sort of a series of aha moments. But as I said earlier, it was an emergent strategy. It was something that kind of developed over time. But also, I'm someone that learned quite early on in my life to back myself. \n\nI think I took the punt on building this agency, if you like because it felt right. And it felt like something that I would enjoy doing, and it felt like something that I could actually make a difference in. And I think all of those things kind of culminated in really making EmergeOne what it is today, and I'm really proud of what we've been able to achieve.\n\nWILL: Yeah, I love that idea because I feel like, especially in startups, like you said, that excellent CFO is really hard to find. It's really hard to find. But if you don't have the numbers, you don't have a business. Let's be honest, the numbers you just don't have it.\n\nAARISH: Yeah, it's crazy to me that over the last decade or so, we've had, obviously, this period of super cheap money, super cheap capital. People have been raising at very inflated valuations. But we're seeing all of that come home to roost. We're seeing that in the public markets. A lot of these companies that IPOed over the last several years, obviously, have had their valuations drop significantly, you know, companies like Peloton, I guess, and others. \n\nPeople are starting to realize that actually cash is king. They need to understand how the cash is flowing through their business and to know that they need to have an intimate knowledge of their numbers. And, in fact, a lot of our role as a CFO in a business is to kind of coach the founder to make sure that they do understand those numbers and how they need to present them to internal stakeholders, external stakeholders, whether that's your board, whether that's investors, or whether that's your employees to make sure that people have a good idea of not only how they're tracking but where they're heading and where the end goal is. And I think it's massively important. \n\nI've always been a massive advocate for people getting to grips with their numbers, even if you're not a numbers person. Because especially if you're a founder or you're the leader in the business, the CEO, ultimately, the buck stops with you. You've got to know those numbers. It's not good enough to say, \"Well, my CFO, my accountant has a handle on them.\" Like, if you're sitting in an investor meeting trying to pitch them to raise 5 to 10 million bucks, you're going to need to know those numbers inside out. And it's astonishing how many people actually ignore those. And what I would say is, you know, ignore them at your peril.\n\nWILL: Yeah, that just blows my mind because if I put myself in an investor seat if I'm giving you money, I want the head person, the CEO, to know exactly how to handle that money. So yeah, I love that idea, and I love what you're doing. Let's go on Projected.ai. And if I understand this correctly, this is more of a kind of [inaudible 10:51] the words.\n\nAARISH: So it's like a newsletter on steroids. \n\nWILL: Yeah, but it's to be honest about your numbers to board members and investors, correct?\n\nAARISH: Yeah. So Projected.ai was born out of this understanding that I guess I have, which is that CFOs and finance professionals working in startups and scaleups and SMEs they have dashboard fatigue. We interviewed CFOs, and they're operating off like 20 different dashboards, each of them giving them different numbers, each of them telling them something different. And they don't even have time to look at those dashboards, let alone make decisions based on the numbers that are coming out of them. \n\nSo what we wanted to do with Projected was provide a touch point for that CFO where they could check in with their numbers in a really easy way on a consistent, regular basis. When I thought about this really clearly, I don't live in dashboards; where I live is in the tools I communicate in, so that's my emails, that may be my Slack channel, that may be WhatsApp or iMessage, or whatever it is that you use. But certainly, for business, it's going to be email and Slack for the most part. \n\nSo I thought, what is the easiest way to communicate with someone in their business? It is via one of those channels. And what are the things that they want to know? Well, they want to know what's happening in their business, what's changed in their numbers over the last week, or two weeks, or month, but also what's happening outside their business. \n\nBecause often, in startups, we get so kind of tunnel-visioned into what's happening inside the business. We don't take the time to look outside and figure out what others are doing or what may be happening in the macro environment that may have an impact on our business. And an obvious case of that at the moment is interest rates having moved up quite significantly over the last several months and still going to, as well as sort of inflation numbers also on their way up, and central banks everywhere trying to rein those in.\n\nAll of that is going to have an impact on your business, especially if you're a consumer business, for example. And if you don't factor in all of those things or if you don't look at all of the things that could impact your business, you're going to make decisions with imperfect information, and, therefore, you'll make imperfect decisions. Now, you're never going to have perfect information. But the more information, the more pertinent information you have, the more transparent you can be, exactly as you said, to your board, to your shareholders. Tell them exactly what's happening, and get their advice to help you through those rough patches. \n\nUltimately, we've got some tricks up our sleeves in terms of what we're going to be doing with those numbers, and how we're going to be presenting them, and how we're going to be manipulating them when we do show them to our users. But I kind of felt like we've moved past that time where CFOs were only about the numbers looking backwards. A really great CFO today is all about communication, information. It's about turning data into information, turning numbers into a narrative. Yeah, that's what we wanted to build, a tool that could support them and help them really be the best CFO they can be.\n\nWILL: Yeah, that's amazing. Transparency is the word I was looking for. So you nailed it, yeah. So I love that idea, the transparency of the numbers of the business just using AI. So that's amazing. It makes it a lot easier to send it out and to make it happen. So I love that idea.\n\nAARISH: Yeah. I mean, the interesting thing is; obviously, we've all been hearing a lot about generative AI and large language models at the moment. And we've definitely got plans to incorporate that into what we're doing. But the other side of that is you got to be really, really careful, obviously, because, as we all know, there are biases that can creep into any of those sort of AI-driven models. But equally, there are inaccuracies. \n\nAnd, in fact, a lot of those models tend to be great with words, not great with numbers. So one has to be really, really careful about bringing those tools into play. And because we know what we're doing, we can assess for that and make sure that the information that we're putting out there is the right sort of information, but actually, what we can do in terms of modeling our cash flows and revenue and effectively forecasting out a business. \n\nBecause bearing in mind a lot of startups, most startups, most scaleups, most SMEs don't have the balance sheet. They don't have the money to go out there and build an AI tool themselves. They just simply don't. And they may not have the wherewithal in-house, but they almost certainly don't have the cash. So what we're doing is hopefully providing a bridge for them to get better information in terms of what's happening today but also maybe an inkling of what might happen tomorrow, which helps them, again, to plan better. \n\nAnd, again, it comes back to this whole thing around decision making, transparency, and making sure that they're able to look at their numbers with confidence and communicate those to others with confidence, and really understand what's driving those numbers as they keep building their businesses. \n\nBut everything we do at Projected, everything I do definitely as a founder and as someone that operates in this ecosystem, is all driven by how do we make the ecosystem better? How do we help founders? How do we help their companies? How do we make sure we can drive that number down from 90% of startups failing within the first three or five years? How do we turn that number into 70%, 60%, or less? So that's all about information. It's all about giving those hard-won lessons, hard-learned lessons back to founders and guiding them, I guess, in the best way we can.\n\nWILL: Yeah, I love that. I love that. \n\nMID-ROLL AD:\nthoughtbot is thrilled to announce our own incubator launching this year. If you are a non-technical founding team with a business idea that involves a web or mobile app, we encourage you to apply for our eight-week program.\n\nWe'll help you move forward with confidence in your team, your product vision, and a roadmap for getting you there. Learn more and apply at tbot.io/incubator.\n\nWILL: Let's transition to talking a little bit about you. I love to just ask questions to the founders because, honestly, what founders go through just amazes me that you continue to go. You wake up, and you do it over and over again. So it's amazing, so kudos to you. So let's talk about that; why? Why do you wake up every morning and do EmergeOne, do Projected.ai, do the podcasts? What's your why?\n\nAARISH: I'm in therapy trying to figure that answer out myself.\n\nWILL: [laughs]\n\nAARISH: No, look, I mean, I think what drives me, again, it's that sense of purpose of helping others. It's also scratching the itch. I think a lot of founders, it's about scratching that itch. There is something that you can see that is wrong in the universe, and you want to fix it. And if I think about those various sorts of businesses or podcasts, each of them attracts me in different ways. \n\nSo EmergeOne, we get to help lots of businesses, providing them really, really significant support. And we're working with great VCs, with great clients, great startups, and scaleups. At Projected, we get to expand that range because you're no longer reliant on one person providing a CFO service or a bench of 20 people or whatever. We can now do that across hundreds, thousands of startups if need be. \n\nWith the podcasts, it's a combination of learning and hopefully also providing some learning to others, helping them understand a bit more. So the Off Balance podcast these are like two-minute short episodes, which go into the detail of those 100 lessons that I've learned. And some of them are very, very personal to me, but they're probably applicable across most businesses. And all I'm doing is exploring those in a bit more detail and hopefully passing that on so that some other founder somewhere doesn't have to go through the same pain of learning that lesson. They can look out for the signals and figure out how to deal with it in advance. \n\nAnd Nothing Ventured scratches my itch to learn more about the VC ecosystem. If you imagine I'd spent ten years out in New Guinea, I had no idea what venture capital was out there. I really didn't understand what the tech ecosystem was. When I arrived there, we were still on dial-up. There were no mobile telephones. It wasn't until 2008, 2009, that mobile telephony really kind of picked up over there. \n\nSo when I came back to the UK, I was just surrounded by all of this stuff which I was massively curious about. And so everything I've done since then is about scratching that curiosity and learning. And I think that that drives pretty much everything that I do in life in general, which is this huge passion to learn and understand the world a bit better and to hopefully pass on whatever I can to others because I think life's too short to hold it all for yourself. The more you can give, the better the world is.\n\nWILL: Yeah, definitely, definitely. Let's give a sneak peek into Off Balance. You said that you use that to teach lessons that you've learned along the way. What have been some of the big obstacles that you've come across?\n\nAARISH: Oh wow. I mean, there are 100 lessons in there, [laughs] so I'm going to have to pick a couple of my favorites. Okay, so one which actually I posted about today on LinkedIn it was like the episode we dropped today, which is \"Hire Slow, Fire Fast.\" And I got a lot of flak about this actually talking about it on LinkedIn when I first posted it.\n\nAnd the reason I think that I got a lot of flak was all people read were those four words: hire slow, fire fast. And they just assumed what I was saying was you should fire in the vein of a lot of the larger tech businesses over the last couple of years where maybe they've sent a mass text message or email and just sacked a bunch of people. And that's absolutely not what I'm advocating for. I think you should always be human when you are dealing with people all the time. \n\nBut the things that I've really learned is if you don't have a process to hire people well, you end up hiring the wrong people. And you end up hiring people that either don't have a fit in the business or are just not the right people in terms of their ability to do what you need them to do. And we're all probably aware of this fact by now, but it bears repeating, right? All of us when we are talking to other people, we look for reflections of ourselves.\n\nSo when we are hiring people, we look for people that emulate how we see ourselves, whether that's in the way they talk, in the way they dress, whether they look like us, or whether they come from a similar background. And I think those are all obviously negative biases that we all need to remove. And the way you can remove those is in a couple of ways, so, one, use data wherever possible and use data points. \n\nSecondly, have a process that makes sure that you have a really strong top-of-the-funnel, bringing in candidates from across all sectors, all experiences. I make sure that there are several people involved in that process so that you're all giving your feedback on an individual so that you can make sure that, actually, I thought this person was going to be great in this role, but maybe my CTO thinks they're not; they're going to be mediocre.\n\nWe can have that conversation and understand where those challenges have come up, and hopefully get to a place where we either decide actually, yeah, you know what? We shouldn't hire this person. Or, actually, yeah, you know what? I think you're right. I'm convinced that this is the right person. We should go for them. \n\nBut I think the point is companies can lose hundreds of thousands of dollars hiring the wrong person, that's in recruitment fees, in training fees, and lost time, et cetera, et cetera. So it makes sense to do it right, right from the beginning. And the flip side of that is if you have hired someone and they turn out to be a toxic person or not fit for purpose in terms of the role that they're doing; the point is not to then just send them an SMS and say, you know, \"You're fired.\" The point is, you know, Donald Trump style, no.\n\nWILL: [laughs]\n\nAARISH: The point is actually to take the decision really quickly. So if you realize that that person is not working out, then make the decision and execute on that decision as quickly as possible because I've seen it too often and have done it myself to the business' detriment. I've seen too often people sitting on a decision to move someone on. And that's ended up leading to problems in the business because other employees, other members of the team will recognize that toxicity or that person isn't pulling their weight, or they aren't able to do the job even. \n\nAnd that will just lead to negative impact on the rest of the business as well. So that's definitely one I would always come back to is, like, hire slow, fire fast. I think I'm happy to take more flak on it because I strongly believe it is something that more founders and more businesses should take heed of. \n\nAnd the other one, I think it was number one on my list for a reason, and that's cash trumps everything and today, even more so than anything else. I think businesses over the last, certainly in the venture ecosystem, over the last sort of five years, growth at all costs has been the mantra, and that's throwing dollars at marketing and just building new customers, or buying new customers, I should say, to supercharge growth when actually that isn't sustainable. And it doesn't necessarily lead to good outcomes in the future. \n\nMy preference is twofold, one, spend as much time and money as you can in cultivating your existing customers, make sure you're really giving them delight in whatever product or service you're providing them because that means that they're going to stay with you longer. They're going to pay themselves back in terms of how much it costs to acquire, and hopefully, they're going to be advocates for your business. And all of that basically leads to a better cash bottom line. \n\nAnd today, always, but today over and above any other period, I think over the last 5, 10 years cash trumps everything because you are only as good as your runway. And when you run out of money in this market, it is very hard to go out and try and raise additional capital, and raising capital at the sort of valuations that people have also been used to over the last several years is getting harder and harder, if not impossible. \n\nSo those are probably the two that I would always come back to; it's the hire slow, fire fast, cash trumps everything. And it's better to spend money retaining and loving your customers than trying to constantly acquire new ones.\n\nWILL: Yeah, I love that. I love that. Let's flip it to the other side, what have been some of your biggest wins in life?\n\nAARISH: I mean, I'm going to say the obvious one. My biggest wins are my family, you know, my wife, my kids. I've got two beautiful daughters, one's 21, one's 15. I hope we've raised them to be well-adjusted children. We've given them, I think, the ability to go out and do what they want in life. And that's really important to me. My wife, her, and I have been together for 20 years. We've had our ups and downs, but today I think we make an amazing team. And I'm really fortunate to have her in my life. \n\nIf I think about wins and success in business, it's really hard for me and, again, because I think success is a state of mind. It's not something that you can chase. And I think too many people get caught up in this sort of idea of I'll be successful when. And what I mean is I'll be successful when I've raised that big series A, or I'll be successful when I've exited my business, or I'll be successful when I've made that huge sale, or when I've hired that rockstar employee or made it to founder, or whatever it is. \n\nIf you approach success with the attitude of you are already a success, whatever you're doing, you are alive today, living in one of the most exciting times on the planet. You are a successful human being; whatever anyone else says, that's a major win in itself. And understanding that state of mind that you have to be in is something that it takes a really long time to understand and really internalize. \n\nAnd I think the way that I've managed to get to that place is I've realized that in the past, either I was chasing success or I was waiting for someone else to tell me that I've been successful. When in reality, if I judge success based on my own benchmarks, then it's impossible for me to look at what I've done and say I haven't been successful. I've got two businesses, two podcasts. Who knows? One of those businesses may fall over, one of those podcasts may not get a single listener or whatever. \n\nBut the mere fact that I've shown up and broken ground on all of that stuff for me is, I think, an indication of success. It's something I'm really proud of. And as I move forward in life, I'm always going to try to do better. But I already know that whatever successes or failures I may have in the future, I've already been successful. And I think that's the thing that all of us should hold on to in life.\n\nWILL: Yeah, I totally agree with that, and I really, really like that. So I'm going to close it out with this: what advice would you go back and give yourself when you first started at the very beginning knowing what you know now?\n\nAARISH: I would say from the age of like 15 to the age of getting on 37, 38, I was a product of what other people wanted, what I did at school, what I studied...well, what I studied at university was what I wanted to do, but it was almost in retaliation for what others wanted me to do. Where I worked, the sort of path that I trode was very much based on culturally, familiarly what was expected of me kind of growing up in a very middle-class and privileged background. \n\nIt wasn't until I came back to the UK from Papua New Guinea, where I basically came back with nothing to my name and no idea what I was going to do, and I started doing things that I wanted to do and started backing myself in spite of what other people were saying. So even when I left that first job working at the EdTech business, one of my cousins turned around and said, \"Why are you leaving that job? It is paying you a really good salary. Like, why would you leave that to do this thing?\" \n\nAnd I had someone else, an angel investor who's one of my closest friends; she turned around and said, \"Well, if one of my portfolio companies came and said, oh, they're looking to bring in a CFO, I'd tell them they're stupid and spend their money elsewhere.\" And I was like, \"No, I can see that there is something to be done in this space. I'm going to go and do it.\" And, lo and behold, again, it's paid off. \n\nAnd so I think the one piece of advice I would have given to myself, and I would give to everyone, is back yourself early on. You may not have the experience to do everything. You may not have the network. You may not have the cash. You may not have the friends and family that can invest in you or whatever it might be. But take that first step, back yourself because ultimately, if you can't back yourself, no one else is going to.\n\nWILL: Wow, that's really good, really good. Wow, I really like that. Yeah. Yeah, I really liked that because it's kind of the initial stage of that self-care, especially as a founder. Like, if you don't believe in yourself, how can you even ask someone else for it? Because they can see, like, well, is this a good investment? Are you going to see it through, or are you going to quit?\n\nAARISH: Yeah, and in fact, I'd add to that one of the other things I've said is, but I came to this late in life, is if my mind and my body aren't healthy, then my business can't be either. I realized quite late in life, as I say, probably mid-30s, again, that I'd probably done more damage to my body than I needed to through my diet, through whatever proclivities I may have had. \n\nThe most amazing I've ever felt is today, where I'm exercising daily, where I'm taking care of myself mentally, taking the time to think about what is important to me, and to show gratitude for a lot of stuff as well. And exactly as you say, if you're not looking after yourself, it's really, really hard to look after a business, to look after team members. \n\nAnd certainly, when other people are looking at you, they're going to kind of sit there and say, \"Well, how safe is my money in this guy's hands? Or do I think that this person is going to be able to see it through?\" So 100% the two things are back yourself and look after yourself. I think those are two really important things.\n\nWILL: All right, to close out the podcast, is there anything that you would like to share with the audience?\n\nAARISH: I mean, I think it's been awesome speaking to you. I would love for everyone to come and check out Nothing Ventured and the Off Balance Podcast. And please connect with me on LinkedIn, follow me, follow me on Twitter. My handle is @adsinuk, so that's @A-D-S-I-N-U-K, both on LinkedIn and on Twitter. You can find me at Aarish Shah on LinkedIn, obviously, as well. I'm always keen to hear from people, learn from people, talk to them. All I would ask is be gentle with each other. Come find me. Come have a chat. And, yeah, it's been awesome speaking to you today. \n\nWILL: Yeah, it's been great talking to you too. And I'm going to lead by leadership. And I'm going to look you up on LinkedIn, Twitter; check out the podcast. I'm excited about that. So I'm looking forward to it.\n\nAARISH: Amazing. Thanks, man. \n\nWILL: Yeah, thank you. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have any questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry. \n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.Special Guest: Aarish Shah.Sponsored By:thoughtbot Incubator: thoughtbot is thrilled to announce our own incubator launching this year. If you are a non-technical founding team with a business idea that involves a web or mobile app, we encourage you to apply for our eight-week program.\r\n\r\nWe'll help you move forward with confidence in your team, your product vision, and a roadmap for getting you there. Learn more and apply at tbot.io/incubator.","content_html":"Aarish Shah is the Founder of EmergeOne and Projected.ai and host of Off Balance and Nothing Ventured Podcast.
\n\nWill talks to Aarish about having the venture capitalist money idea and having that "aha!" moment that it could work, what drives him and having a purpose of helping others, and using his podcast to teach lessons that he's learned along the way.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. And with me today is Aarish Shah, Founder of EmergeOne and Projected.ai and host of Off Balance and Nothing Ventured Podcast. Aarish, thank you for joining me.
\n\nAARISH: It's great to be here, Will. Really happy to be talking to you today.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I'm excited. I can't wait to dive in and learn more about you. Tell me about your journey, how it all started.
\n\nAARISH: Wow, it's a bit of a long run. I'll try and condense it. But I am 44 years old at the moment. About 20 years ago, I came out of uni with a degree in languages which I found was sort of useful but not essential. So I ended up for a few years doing kind of the normal corporate thing. I worked with PriceWaterhouseCoopers, Nortel Networks, and then Deutsche Bank. And I qualified as an accountant along the way, so I'm effectively what you guys would consider a CPA over in the U.S.
\n\nI then kind of up sticks, and I spent the next ten years of my life running a group of manufacturing and trading businesses alongside a property portfolio out in Papua New Guinea, which is a very, very interesting place to be, definitely one of the hardest environments to be building and running businesses for many reasons. I've had everything from people coming into one of my offices with guns. I had one of my factories burned to the ground and everything in between. So really, really great learning experience and certainly amazing to learn about physical products, you know, the manufacturing and distribution and sales and so on of actual physical products.
\n\nAnd then, in 2015, I came back to the UK. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. And so I had a bunch of coffees with people and ended up as founding CFO in an EdTech venture, which was a joint venture between Eton College, which is one of the premier schools here in the UK where famously all of our Prime Ministers seem to come from, and Founders Factory which is an accelerator that was founded by Brent Hoberman of lastminute.com fame. So that was really exciting.
\n\nI was straight off the boat from Papua New Guinea, sitting 10 feet away from Brent Hoberman, learning everything that there was to learn about the tech sector here in the UK and beyond. And had a really great couple of years working in that business and learning really everything there was to know about the VCA ecosystem, the early stage ecosystem, how to build products, how to finance them, how to sell into new territories (We were operating in China at the time.) and all sorts of other things.
\n\nAnd then, in 2017, I decided it was time to move on. And I became what you guys would probably call a fractional CFO. So I worked across C through Series C businesses, everything from EdTech to FinTech, D2C, B2B marketplaces, beauty tech, you name it, kind of been there, seen it, and done it. And in 2019 and 2020, started getting approached by FDs and CFOs that wanted to work with me. And I really doubled down at that stage and decided to build EmergeOne into what it is today, which is a consultancy providing CFO services to venture-backed tech startups and scaleups.
\n\nSo we work with a huge bunch of businesses here in the UK that are backed by VCs, some of the big names here like Hoxton Ventures, Stride, Octopus, Outlier, Founders Factory, and others. And I'm really, really passionate about helping founders build their businesses in a scalable and sensible way, I guess, especially in the current environment. And so we're really lucky that we're trusted by these VCs and the founders that we work with to deliver really great services to them.
\n\nAnd then, a couple of years ago, because I've been working kind of in the tech sector for so long, I started noodling around with a couple of ideas of projects that I wanted to move forward with. I raised a really small kind of pre-seed back in 2021 and started building a product, which is today Projected.ai, which we have just launched. We're in the process of launching at the moment.
\n\nAnd what that is is effectively an email newsletter, if you can believe it, providing internal and external data to our client businesses. So effectively, it's like a flash report of your financials alongside some really sort of personalized news about what's going on in your industry, alongside some other sort of bits and bobs that we're currently building in.
\n\nOn top of that, a couple of years ago, again, I realized that I had a really good network of people that I had relationships with, and I decided to launch the Nothing Ventured Podcast to start speaking with people that operated in the VC ecosystem here in the UK and beyond. So I've been really fortunate to have guests like Hussein Kanji from Hoxton Ventures, Mac Conwell from RareBreed ventures in the U.S., and various others. And I really got to talk to them about why they got into venture, what they see is happening in the market, what are they excited about. And all those sorts of things.
\n\nBecause, to be honest, I'm really passionate about learning and understanding about where people are coming from, why they do what they do, what drives them, what they're passionate about, but equally, the sort of challenges they've also faced. And that's been going now for 60-odd episodes. We're launching Season 4 shortly. And I'm really lucky and fortunate to have been able to do that.
\n\nAnd then finally, at the back end of 2022, so in December, actually, just as I was jumping on a plane, I sort of released something on LinkedIn, which was like 100 lessons that I've learned as a CEO and CFO over the last 20 years of operating. And unexpectedly, the thing went viral. I've had close to a million views on it, thousands of likes, hundreds of comments, and reshares.
\n\nAnd I decided to turn what was effectively just a list into a short-form podcast, which has turned into Off Balance. So we're releasing that daily and kind of expanding on each and every one of those topics that I went through in that list. So, yeah, look, I mean, I'm someone with a finger in a lot of pies. I'm a massive generalist, so I love getting involved in different projects at different times. But I'm really fortunate to be able to do what I love doing. It's just been a wild journey for the last seven years, certainly, but the whole 20 years of my life.
\n\nWILL: I love it. I love it. I love every idea that you had weaves into that venture capitalist money idea. So let's start at EmergeOne. When did you have that aha moment that this could work?
\n\nAARISH: So I work a lot in strategy, so there are two forms of strategies, emergent and there's defined. So most people know about a strategy that is written down; it's a playbook. They go out, and they pursue it. For me, it was really emergent. Firstly, I realized that there were not that many great CFOs operating in tech, certainly here in the UK, because it's, to an extent, a nascent industry. And whilst there are great accountants, and there are great finance leaders in larger businesses, actually doing that in a startup or a scaleup is very, very different.
\n\nNow, don't get me wrong, there are some great CFOs out there. It's just that I think there are far fewer than many people [laughs] assume there to be. So that was kind of the first thing that twigged with me. And I was seeing a lot of businesses picking up people and calling them a CFO when I knew for a fact there was no way that they really had the experience to be able to call themselves a CFO or to operate as one. So I guess that was the first aha moment.
\n\nAnd the second aha moment was as I started talking to more and more VCs via the podcast, and just generally because I was out in the ecosystem talking to them, I realized that actually, the work that I was doing was not being driven necessarily by the client companies but actually by the VCs themselves because they wanted to make sure that having invested 1,2,5, 10 million pounds or dollars that those companies were in good hands and safe hands and that capital was being managed effectively and efficiently.
\n\nAnd obviously, we're sitting in January of 2023 now. Never has that been more appropriate. More and more businesses are struggling. They're struggling to raise. They're having to extend their runways and figure out how to manage their cash in a much, much more significant way than maybe they had to two or three years ago. And so, for us, that's like a massively important thing. And having a great CFO in your business is going to help you do that.
\n\nAnd therefore, we are getting approached more and more both by VCs as well as by companies that are just on the lookout for someone to help them. It was sort of a series of aha moments. But as I said earlier, it was an emergent strategy. It was something that kind of developed over time. But also, I'm someone that learned quite early on in my life to back myself.
\n\nI think I took the punt on building this agency, if you like because it felt right. And it felt like something that I would enjoy doing, and it felt like something that I could actually make a difference in. And I think all of those things kind of culminated in really making EmergeOne what it is today, and I'm really proud of what we've been able to achieve.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I love that idea because I feel like, especially in startups, like you said, that excellent CFO is really hard to find. It's really hard to find. But if you don't have the numbers, you don't have a business. Let's be honest, the numbers you just don't have it.
\n\nAARISH: Yeah, it's crazy to me that over the last decade or so, we've had, obviously, this period of super cheap money, super cheap capital. People have been raising at very inflated valuations. But we're seeing all of that come home to roost. We're seeing that in the public markets. A lot of these companies that IPOed over the last several years, obviously, have had their valuations drop significantly, you know, companies like Peloton, I guess, and others.
\n\nPeople are starting to realize that actually cash is king. They need to understand how the cash is flowing through their business and to know that they need to have an intimate knowledge of their numbers. And, in fact, a lot of our role as a CFO in a business is to kind of coach the founder to make sure that they do understand those numbers and how they need to present them to internal stakeholders, external stakeholders, whether that's your board, whether that's investors, or whether that's your employees to make sure that people have a good idea of not only how they're tracking but where they're heading and where the end goal is. And I think it's massively important.
\n\nI've always been a massive advocate for people getting to grips with their numbers, even if you're not a numbers person. Because especially if you're a founder or you're the leader in the business, the CEO, ultimately, the buck stops with you. You've got to know those numbers. It's not good enough to say, "Well, my CFO, my accountant has a handle on them." Like, if you're sitting in an investor meeting trying to pitch them to raise 5 to 10 million bucks, you're going to need to know those numbers inside out. And it's astonishing how many people actually ignore those. And what I would say is, you know, ignore them at your peril.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, that just blows my mind because if I put myself in an investor seat if I'm giving you money, I want the head person, the CEO, to know exactly how to handle that money. So yeah, I love that idea, and I love what you're doing. Let's go on Projected.ai. And if I understand this correctly, this is more of a kind of [inaudible 10:51] the words.
\n\nAARISH: So it's like a newsletter on steroids.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, but it's to be honest about your numbers to board members and investors, correct?
\n\nAARISH: Yeah. So Projected.ai was born out of this understanding that I guess I have, which is that CFOs and finance professionals working in startups and scaleups and SMEs they have dashboard fatigue. We interviewed CFOs, and they're operating off like 20 different dashboards, each of them giving them different numbers, each of them telling them something different. And they don't even have time to look at those dashboards, let alone make decisions based on the numbers that are coming out of them.
\n\nSo what we wanted to do with Projected was provide a touch point for that CFO where they could check in with their numbers in a really easy way on a consistent, regular basis. When I thought about this really clearly, I don't live in dashboards; where I live is in the tools I communicate in, so that's my emails, that may be my Slack channel, that may be WhatsApp or iMessage, or whatever it is that you use. But certainly, for business, it's going to be email and Slack for the most part.
\n\nSo I thought, what is the easiest way to communicate with someone in their business? It is via one of those channels. And what are the things that they want to know? Well, they want to know what's happening in their business, what's changed in their numbers over the last week, or two weeks, or month, but also what's happening outside their business.
\n\nBecause often, in startups, we get so kind of tunnel-visioned into what's happening inside the business. We don't take the time to look outside and figure out what others are doing or what may be happening in the macro environment that may have an impact on our business. And an obvious case of that at the moment is interest rates having moved up quite significantly over the last several months and still going to, as well as sort of inflation numbers also on their way up, and central banks everywhere trying to rein those in.
\n\nAll of that is going to have an impact on your business, especially if you're a consumer business, for example. And if you don't factor in all of those things or if you don't look at all of the things that could impact your business, you're going to make decisions with imperfect information, and, therefore, you'll make imperfect decisions. Now, you're never going to have perfect information. But the more information, the more pertinent information you have, the more transparent you can be, exactly as you said, to your board, to your shareholders. Tell them exactly what's happening, and get their advice to help you through those rough patches.
\n\nUltimately, we've got some tricks up our sleeves in terms of what we're going to be doing with those numbers, and how we're going to be presenting them, and how we're going to be manipulating them when we do show them to our users. But I kind of felt like we've moved past that time where CFOs were only about the numbers looking backwards. A really great CFO today is all about communication, information. It's about turning data into information, turning numbers into a narrative. Yeah, that's what we wanted to build, a tool that could support them and help them really be the best CFO they can be.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, that's amazing. Transparency is the word I was looking for. So you nailed it, yeah. So I love that idea, the transparency of the numbers of the business just using AI. So that's amazing. It makes it a lot easier to send it out and to make it happen. So I love that idea.
\n\nAARISH: Yeah. I mean, the interesting thing is; obviously, we've all been hearing a lot about generative AI and large language models at the moment. And we've definitely got plans to incorporate that into what we're doing. But the other side of that is you got to be really, really careful, obviously, because, as we all know, there are biases that can creep into any of those sort of AI-driven models. But equally, there are inaccuracies.
\n\nAnd, in fact, a lot of those models tend to be great with words, not great with numbers. So one has to be really, really careful about bringing those tools into play. And because we know what we're doing, we can assess for that and make sure that the information that we're putting out there is the right sort of information, but actually, what we can do in terms of modeling our cash flows and revenue and effectively forecasting out a business.
\n\nBecause bearing in mind a lot of startups, most startups, most scaleups, most SMEs don't have the balance sheet. They don't have the money to go out there and build an AI tool themselves. They just simply don't. And they may not have the wherewithal in-house, but they almost certainly don't have the cash. So what we're doing is hopefully providing a bridge for them to get better information in terms of what's happening today but also maybe an inkling of what might happen tomorrow, which helps them, again, to plan better.
\n\nAnd, again, it comes back to this whole thing around decision making, transparency, and making sure that they're able to look at their numbers with confidence and communicate those to others with confidence, and really understand what's driving those numbers as they keep building their businesses.
\n\nBut everything we do at Projected, everything I do definitely as a founder and as someone that operates in this ecosystem, is all driven by how do we make the ecosystem better? How do we help founders? How do we help their companies? How do we make sure we can drive that number down from 90% of startups failing within the first three or five years? How do we turn that number into 70%, 60%, or less? So that's all about information. It's all about giving those hard-won lessons, hard-learned lessons back to founders and guiding them, I guess, in the best way we can.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I love that. I love that.
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\n\nWILL: Let's transition to talking a little bit about you. I love to just ask questions to the founders because, honestly, what founders go through just amazes me that you continue to go. You wake up, and you do it over and over again. So it's amazing, so kudos to you. So let's talk about that; why? Why do you wake up every morning and do EmergeOne, do Projected.ai, do the podcasts? What's your why?
\n\nAARISH: I'm in therapy trying to figure that answer out myself.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nAARISH: No, look, I mean, I think what drives me, again, it's that sense of purpose of helping others. It's also scratching the itch. I think a lot of founders, it's about scratching that itch. There is something that you can see that is wrong in the universe, and you want to fix it. And if I think about those various sorts of businesses or podcasts, each of them attracts me in different ways.
\n\nSo EmergeOne, we get to help lots of businesses, providing them really, really significant support. And we're working with great VCs, with great clients, great startups, and scaleups. At Projected, we get to expand that range because you're no longer reliant on one person providing a CFO service or a bench of 20 people or whatever. We can now do that across hundreds, thousands of startups if need be.
\n\nWith the podcasts, it's a combination of learning and hopefully also providing some learning to others, helping them understand a bit more. So the Off Balance podcast these are like two-minute short episodes, which go into the detail of those 100 lessons that I've learned. And some of them are very, very personal to me, but they're probably applicable across most businesses. And all I'm doing is exploring those in a bit more detail and hopefully passing that on so that some other founder somewhere doesn't have to go through the same pain of learning that lesson. They can look out for the signals and figure out how to deal with it in advance.
\n\nAnd Nothing Ventured scratches my itch to learn more about the VC ecosystem. If you imagine I'd spent ten years out in New Guinea, I had no idea what venture capital was out there. I really didn't understand what the tech ecosystem was. When I arrived there, we were still on dial-up. There were no mobile telephones. It wasn't until 2008, 2009, that mobile telephony really kind of picked up over there.
\n\nSo when I came back to the UK, I was just surrounded by all of this stuff which I was massively curious about. And so everything I've done since then is about scratching that curiosity and learning. And I think that that drives pretty much everything that I do in life in general, which is this huge passion to learn and understand the world a bit better and to hopefully pass on whatever I can to others because I think life's too short to hold it all for yourself. The more you can give, the better the world is.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, definitely, definitely. Let's give a sneak peek into Off Balance. You said that you use that to teach lessons that you've learned along the way. What have been some of the big obstacles that you've come across?
\n\nAARISH: Oh wow. I mean, there are 100 lessons in there, [laughs] so I'm going to have to pick a couple of my favorites. Okay, so one which actually I posted about today on LinkedIn it was like the episode we dropped today, which is "Hire Slow, Fire Fast." And I got a lot of flak about this actually talking about it on LinkedIn when I first posted it.
\n\nAnd the reason I think that I got a lot of flak was all people read were those four words: hire slow, fire fast. And they just assumed what I was saying was you should fire in the vein of a lot of the larger tech businesses over the last couple of years where maybe they've sent a mass text message or email and just sacked a bunch of people. And that's absolutely not what I'm advocating for. I think you should always be human when you are dealing with people all the time.
\n\nBut the things that I've really learned is if you don't have a process to hire people well, you end up hiring the wrong people. And you end up hiring people that either don't have a fit in the business or are just not the right people in terms of their ability to do what you need them to do. And we're all probably aware of this fact by now, but it bears repeating, right? All of us when we are talking to other people, we look for reflections of ourselves.
\n\nSo when we are hiring people, we look for people that emulate how we see ourselves, whether that's in the way they talk, in the way they dress, whether they look like us, or whether they come from a similar background. And I think those are all obviously negative biases that we all need to remove. And the way you can remove those is in a couple of ways, so, one, use data wherever possible and use data points.
\n\nSecondly, have a process that makes sure that you have a really strong top-of-the-funnel, bringing in candidates from across all sectors, all experiences. I make sure that there are several people involved in that process so that you're all giving your feedback on an individual so that you can make sure that, actually, I thought this person was going to be great in this role, but maybe my CTO thinks they're not; they're going to be mediocre.
\n\nWe can have that conversation and understand where those challenges have come up, and hopefully get to a place where we either decide actually, yeah, you know what? We shouldn't hire this person. Or, actually, yeah, you know what? I think you're right. I'm convinced that this is the right person. We should go for them.
\n\nBut I think the point is companies can lose hundreds of thousands of dollars hiring the wrong person, that's in recruitment fees, in training fees, and lost time, et cetera, et cetera. So it makes sense to do it right, right from the beginning. And the flip side of that is if you have hired someone and they turn out to be a toxic person or not fit for purpose in terms of the role that they're doing; the point is not to then just send them an SMS and say, you know, "You're fired." The point is, you know, Donald Trump style, no.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nAARISH: The point is actually to take the decision really quickly. So if you realize that that person is not working out, then make the decision and execute on that decision as quickly as possible because I've seen it too often and have done it myself to the business' detriment. I've seen too often people sitting on a decision to move someone on. And that's ended up leading to problems in the business because other employees, other members of the team will recognize that toxicity or that person isn't pulling their weight, or they aren't able to do the job even.
\n\nAnd that will just lead to negative impact on the rest of the business as well. So that's definitely one I would always come back to is, like, hire slow, fire fast. I think I'm happy to take more flak on it because I strongly believe it is something that more founders and more businesses should take heed of.
\n\nAnd the other one, I think it was number one on my list for a reason, and that's cash trumps everything and today, even more so than anything else. I think businesses over the last, certainly in the venture ecosystem, over the last sort of five years, growth at all costs has been the mantra, and that's throwing dollars at marketing and just building new customers, or buying new customers, I should say, to supercharge growth when actually that isn't sustainable. And it doesn't necessarily lead to good outcomes in the future.
\n\nMy preference is twofold, one, spend as much time and money as you can in cultivating your existing customers, make sure you're really giving them delight in whatever product or service you're providing them because that means that they're going to stay with you longer. They're going to pay themselves back in terms of how much it costs to acquire, and hopefully, they're going to be advocates for your business. And all of that basically leads to a better cash bottom line.
\n\nAnd today, always, but today over and above any other period, I think over the last 5, 10 years cash trumps everything because you are only as good as your runway. And when you run out of money in this market, it is very hard to go out and try and raise additional capital, and raising capital at the sort of valuations that people have also been used to over the last several years is getting harder and harder, if not impossible.
\n\nSo those are probably the two that I would always come back to; it's the hire slow, fire fast, cash trumps everything. And it's better to spend money retaining and loving your customers than trying to constantly acquire new ones.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I love that. I love that. Let's flip it to the other side, what have been some of your biggest wins in life?
\n\nAARISH: I mean, I'm going to say the obvious one. My biggest wins are my family, you know, my wife, my kids. I've got two beautiful daughters, one's 21, one's 15. I hope we've raised them to be well-adjusted children. We've given them, I think, the ability to go out and do what they want in life. And that's really important to me. My wife, her, and I have been together for 20 years. We've had our ups and downs, but today I think we make an amazing team. And I'm really fortunate to have her in my life.
\n\nIf I think about wins and success in business, it's really hard for me and, again, because I think success is a state of mind. It's not something that you can chase. And I think too many people get caught up in this sort of idea of I'll be successful when. And what I mean is I'll be successful when I've raised that big series A, or I'll be successful when I've exited my business, or I'll be successful when I've made that huge sale, or when I've hired that rockstar employee or made it to founder, or whatever it is.
\n\nIf you approach success with the attitude of you are already a success, whatever you're doing, you are alive today, living in one of the most exciting times on the planet. You are a successful human being; whatever anyone else says, that's a major win in itself. And understanding that state of mind that you have to be in is something that it takes a really long time to understand and really internalize.
\n\nAnd I think the way that I've managed to get to that place is I've realized that in the past, either I was chasing success or I was waiting for someone else to tell me that I've been successful. When in reality, if I judge success based on my own benchmarks, then it's impossible for me to look at what I've done and say I haven't been successful. I've got two businesses, two podcasts. Who knows? One of those businesses may fall over, one of those podcasts may not get a single listener or whatever.
\n\nBut the mere fact that I've shown up and broken ground on all of that stuff for me is, I think, an indication of success. It's something I'm really proud of. And as I move forward in life, I'm always going to try to do better. But I already know that whatever successes or failures I may have in the future, I've already been successful. And I think that's the thing that all of us should hold on to in life.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I totally agree with that, and I really, really like that. So I'm going to close it out with this: what advice would you go back and give yourself when you first started at the very beginning knowing what you know now?
\n\nAARISH: I would say from the age of like 15 to the age of getting on 37, 38, I was a product of what other people wanted, what I did at school, what I studied...well, what I studied at university was what I wanted to do, but it was almost in retaliation for what others wanted me to do. Where I worked, the sort of path that I trode was very much based on culturally, familiarly what was expected of me kind of growing up in a very middle-class and privileged background.
\n\nIt wasn't until I came back to the UK from Papua New Guinea, where I basically came back with nothing to my name and no idea what I was going to do, and I started doing things that I wanted to do and started backing myself in spite of what other people were saying. So even when I left that first job working at the EdTech business, one of my cousins turned around and said, "Why are you leaving that job? It is paying you a really good salary. Like, why would you leave that to do this thing?"
\n\nAnd I had someone else, an angel investor who's one of my closest friends; she turned around and said, "Well, if one of my portfolio companies came and said, oh, they're looking to bring in a CFO, I'd tell them they're stupid and spend their money elsewhere." And I was like, "No, I can see that there is something to be done in this space. I'm going to go and do it." And, lo and behold, again, it's paid off.
\n\nAnd so I think the one piece of advice I would have given to myself, and I would give to everyone, is back yourself early on. You may not have the experience to do everything. You may not have the network. You may not have the cash. You may not have the friends and family that can invest in you or whatever it might be. But take that first step, back yourself because ultimately, if you can't back yourself, no one else is going to.
\n\nWILL: Wow, that's really good, really good. Wow, I really like that. Yeah. Yeah, I really liked that because it's kind of the initial stage of that self-care, especially as a founder. Like, if you don't believe in yourself, how can you even ask someone else for it? Because they can see, like, well, is this a good investment? Are you going to see it through, or are you going to quit?
\n\nAARISH: Yeah, and in fact, I'd add to that one of the other things I've said is, but I came to this late in life, is if my mind and my body aren't healthy, then my business can't be either. I realized quite late in life, as I say, probably mid-30s, again, that I'd probably done more damage to my body than I needed to through my diet, through whatever proclivities I may have had.
\n\nThe most amazing I've ever felt is today, where I'm exercising daily, where I'm taking care of myself mentally, taking the time to think about what is important to me, and to show gratitude for a lot of stuff as well. And exactly as you say, if you're not looking after yourself, it's really, really hard to look after a business, to look after team members.
\n\nAnd certainly, when other people are looking at you, they're going to kind of sit there and say, "Well, how safe is my money in this guy's hands? Or do I think that this person is going to be able to see it through?" So 100% the two things are back yourself and look after yourself. I think those are two really important things.
\n\nWILL: All right, to close out the podcast, is there anything that you would like to share with the audience?
\n\nAARISH: I mean, I think it's been awesome speaking to you. I would love for everyone to come and check out Nothing Ventured and the Off Balance Podcast. And please connect with me on LinkedIn, follow me, follow me on Twitter. My handle is @adsinuk, so that's @A-D-S-I-N-U-K, both on LinkedIn and on Twitter. You can find me at Aarish Shah on LinkedIn, obviously, as well. I'm always keen to hear from people, learn from people, talk to them. All I would ask is be gentle with each other. Come find me. Come have a chat. And, yeah, it's been awesome speaking to you today.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, it's been great talking to you too. And I'm going to lead by leadership. And I'm going to look you up on LinkedIn, Twitter; check out the podcast. I'm excited about that. So I'm looking forward to it.
\n\nAARISH: Amazing. Thanks, man.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, thank you. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have any questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Aarish Shah.
Sponsored By:
Nadia Odunayo is the Founder and CEO of The StoryGraph, a new website and app for avid book readers because life's too short for a book you're not in the mood for. The StoryGraph helps you track your reading and choose your next book based on your mood, favorite topics, and themes.
\n\nVictoria talks to Nadia about coming up with a product based on the concept of mood, what you're in the mood for to read, i.e., this book made me feel this way. How do I find a book that makes me feel similar? They also talk about keeping yourself open to feedback, the ability to flow and change direction, and developing a reviewing system that keeps biases in check.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Nadia Odunayo, Founder and CEO of StoryGraph, a new website and app for avid book readers because life's too short for a book you're not in the mood for. StoryGraph helps you track your reading and choose your next book based on your mood and your favorite topics and themes. Nadia, thank you for joining me.
\n\nNADIA: Thank you for having me.
\n\nVICTORIA: And you are a repeat guest at Giant Robots. But for those who missed that episode, tell me a little bit about your journey. And how did this all get started?
\n\nNADIA: Okay. Yeah, so that first time was in 2015, and that was not too long after I had just got into tech. I did a bootcamp in London in 2014, Makers Academy, and that's where I learned to code. My degree was in philosophy, politics, and economics, so rather different. I worked at Pivotal for about a year and a half after I graduated from Makers Academy. And during my time at Pivotal, I got into conference speaking, and my first talk was around game theory.
\n\nSo I took my favorite topic in economics, game theory, and I combined that with distributed systems because that's what I was working on at the time in Pivotal on their Cloud Foundry PaaS. I think I gave it at RailsConf, and I think someone there recommended me to Giant Robots. And so Ben Orenstein interviewed me, and it was all about different types of conference talks and that kind of thing.
\n\nSo after Pivotal, I left and started a hybrid kind of consultancy/product company with a colleague, did that for about a year, left that, worked for about a year with my friend, Saron Yitbarek, on her company CodeNewbie. And then, when that partnership ended, I essentially had five years of runway from money that I got from the company that I started after Pivotal because we did some consulting with a bank.
\n\nI'd always been entrepreneurial. I'd been doing various entrepreneurial things since secondary school, actually, high school. It was time for me to just have time on my side projects. And so I started hacking away on one of my side projects at the beginning of 2019 in January, and I haven't stopped since. That's what the StoryGraph has developed into.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. And yes, I saw that the very early stages of StoryGraph started as a creative writing e-publication. Is that right?
\n\nNADIA: So what happened was when I was at university, I started a creative writing e-publication, came up with the name The StoryGraph. Because we had won or we were going for some grant funding or something like that, I set up a corporate entity. And when I stopped working on that e-publication, I remember my mom saying to me, "Don't shut down the entity. I really like the name. I feel like you'll use it for something," that was in 2012.
\n\nAnd so fast forward to 2019, and the side project that I was working on was called Read Lists. And it was very specifically focused on tracking and sharing progress through reading lists on a dashboard. But when I was doing customer research, and the scope of the project grew, Read Lists didn't fit anymore. And that's when I realized, oh, I can use The StoryGraph thing again. And so it's basically had two different lives or two different forms, the StoryGraph company.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's wonderful. And I'm reading about StoryGraph and how it's an Amazon-free alternative to Goodreads. Can you talk a little bit more about the product and why people would want to use it?
\n\nNADIA: So, as I said, it started life as a very specific focused side project. And I just had so much fun working on it and working in the book space. I'd always been a reader since I was a kid such that I said to myself, I need to find a way to make me building a books product a full-time thing. And so that's when customer research came in because the only way that you're going to make sure that you don't build something that people don't want is by talking to people.
\n\nAs I was doing customer research and figuring out, are there pain points amongst readers, people who track their reading? What would happen was the pain points that came up drove me towards building a more fully fledged reading, tracking, and recommendations product. It actually started as a very focused recommendations product. And then, we got to the point where we needed to build more around it for it to be a compelling product.
\n\nAnd as it was growing, we never advertised ourselves as a Goodreads alternative or as an Amazon-free alternative to what was out there. But that was clearly a pain point in the market. There were tweets about us saying, "Finally a Goodreads alternative. It's small; it's independent; it's Amazon-free. And so thousands and thousands, hundreds of thousands of people have come to us because of that.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow.
\n\nNADIA: And so it got to the point...mainly when we launched our payment plan, and we were trying to figure out the reasons why people were pre-ordering the plan, it was at that point where we decided to lean into the Amazon-free Goodreads alternative because that was what the market wanted.
\n\nVICTORIA: Was that surprising for you? Or were there other things that came out of your research on your marketplace that kind of were different than what you thought it would be going in?
\n\nNADIA: I think the most interesting thing about the product development journey was that I at least originally felt like I was building a product that wasn't for me. So what I mean by that is in my earliest rounds of research, what I was finding was that people still didn't think that they had one place to get consistently good book recommendations. And so then I started to explore, well, how do you even give somebody consistently good book recommendations?
\n\nAnd one of the factors that kept on coming up was this concept of mood, what you're in the mood for. This book made me feel this way. How do I find a book that makes me feel similar? And so it got to the point where I said to myself, oh wow, I'm building a product for mood readers right now; that seems to be the gap, that seems to be the thing that nothing out there yet had properly attacked. And I had never considered myself a mood reader. I just thought I'm a planner. I'm an organized person. I typically decide what book I want to read, and then I read it.
\n\nAnd so there was a point where I was concerned, and I thought, wait, am I now building something that is not for me? But then, as I started to work and do more research and talk to more and more people and thinking about my reading experiences, I developed the hypothesis or the viewpoint rather that I think everybody's a mood reader; it's just the scale. Because there are probably some books that I may have rated lowly in the past that if I had read it in a different frame of mind, or at a different time in my life, different circumstance, it probably would have resonated with me a lot more.
\n\nNow, that's not to say that's true for every single book. There are some books that are just not going to work for you, no matter what. But I do think we're all on the scale of mood reading. And sometimes we say a book is a bad book, but we just read it at not the right time. And so I think the most surprising thing for me is going on that journey of realizing that, oh, I am a mood reader too.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs]
\n\nNADIA: And I ended up building an app that's a lot less focused on just the pure ratings. I was someone who, on Goodreads, if it had less than four stars, I'm not interested. And the ethos of the product is more about, well, hang on; these ratings are very subjective. And someone else's two, three-star could be your next five-star. What are the factors that really matter? Do you want something dark, adventurous? Are you looking for something funny, light? And then what kind of topics do you want to discover? And then it doesn't matter if the five people before you thought it was average; you might think it's excellent.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, it reminds me thinking about how bias can come in with authors and writing as well. So a simple five-star system might be more susceptible to bias against different genders or different types of names. Whereas if you have more complex numbers or complex rating systems, it might be easier to have different types of authors stand out in a different way.
\n\nNADIA: That actually relates to what was going through my mind when I was developing the reviewing system on StoryGraph. You can just, if you want, leave your star rating and say no more, but the star rating is lower down on the page. And up front, we say this book would be great for someone who's in the mood for something...and then you've got checkboxes. And how would you rate the pace of the book?
\n\nAnd if it's a fiction book, we ask you, "Are the characters lovable?" Is there a flawed narrator? Is it plot-driven or character-driven?" Questions like that because the thinking is it doesn't matter whether you are going to give the book two stars in your own personal star rating. You can still help someone else find a book that's good for them because they will be looking at the summary on the StoryGraph book page, and they'll go, "Oh wow, 80% of people said it's lovable. There's a diverse range of characters, and it's funny. So the topics fit things I'm interested in, so I care less about the average rating being like 3.5 because everything else seems perfect. Let me see for myself."
\n\nAnd actually, we've also had a lot of feedback from people saying that "Oh, normally, I never know how to review a book or what to say. And this system has really helped me, almost give me prompts to get started about explaining the book, reviewing it for other people to help them decide if it's for them. So that's great."
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense to me because I read a lot of books, maybe not as much as I would like to recently. But not all books that I love I can easily recommend to friends, but it's hard for me to say why. [laughs] You know, like, "This is a very complicated book." So I love it. I'll have to check it out later. It's been four years since you've been full-time or since 2019, almost five then.
\n\nNADIA: Yes.
\n\nVICTORIA: If you could travel back in time to when you first started to make this a full-time role, what advice would you give yourself now, having all of this foresight?
\n\nNADIA: Have patience, trust the process because I can sometimes be impatient with, ah, I want this to happen now. I want this to pick up now. I want these features done now. I'm a solo dev on the project. I started it solo. I have a co-founder now, but I'm still the solo dev. And there were so many things, especially now that we've got a much larger user base, that people complained about or say is not quite right. And that can be really tough to just have to keep hearing when you're like, I know, but I don't have the resource to fix it right now or to improve it.
\n\nBut I think one of the things is, yeah, having faith in the process. Keep going through the cycles of listening to the customers, prioritizing the work, getting the work done, getting the feedback, and just keep going through that loop. And the product will keep getting better. Because sometimes it can feel, particularly in the first year when I was so low, you sometimes have moments of doubt. Or if a customer research round doesn't go super well, you start to wonder, is this only a nice-to-have? And is this going to go anywhere? And so that's one piece of advice.
\n\nAnd I think the other one is knowing that there are several right paths because I think sometimes I would agonize over I want to do the right thing. I want to make sure I make the right choice right now. And, I mean, there are some things that are not good to do. You want to make sure that you're setting up your customer interviews in a non-leading way. You want to make sure that there are certain standards in the product in terms of the technical side and all that kind of stuff, so there's that.
\n\nBut I think it's understanding that you kind of just have to make a decision. And if you set yourself up to be able to be adaptive and responsive to change, then you'll be fine. Because you can always change course if the response you're getting back or the data you're getting back is going in the wrong direction.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And I want to pull on that thread about being open to changing your mind. I think that many founders start the company because they're so excited about this idea and this problem that they found. But how do you keep yourself open to feedback and keeping that ability to flow and to change direction?
\n\nNADIA: I mean, I didn't set out to build a Goodreads alternative, and here I am.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs]
\n\nNADIA: I just wanted to build this specific side project or this specific...it was a companion app, in fact. Like, the first version of the thing I built, the first thing you had to do was sign in and connect your Goodreads account so that we could pull in your shelves and start creating the dashboards. So as a solo bootstrapping founder, building a Goodreads alternative was not something that I thought was going to lead to success.
\n\nBut through years of experience, and just hearing other people's stories, and research, I just learned that it's such a hard space just running a startup in general, and 90% of startups fail. And I just said to myself that, okay, the only way I can kind of survive for longer is if I am open to feedback, I'm open to change course, I'm patient, and I trust the process. These are the things I can do to just increase my chances of success.
\n\nAnd so that's why I kind of feel it's imperative if you want to go down this route and you want to be successful, it's vital that you're open to completely changing the product, completely changing your direction, completely going back on a decision. You'll either lose customers or you'll run out of money, whatever it is. And so yeah, you've got to just basically be quite ruthless in the things that are just going to minimize your chances of failing.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. And now, I have a two-part question for you. What's the wind in your sails? Like, the thing that keeps you going and keeps you motivated to keep working on this? And then, conversely, what's kind of holding you back? What are the obstacles and challenges that you're facing?
\n\nNADIA: I think this kind of role...so I'm like founder, CEO, and developer. In general, I think I thrive under pressure and pushing myself, and trying to always be better and improve. So I'm always trying to be like, how can I improve my productivity? Or how can I run the company better? All these kinds of things. So I feel like I'm getting to explore maximizing my full potential as someone in the world of work through doing this. So that just intrinsically is motivating to me.
\n\nI love books, and I love reading. I think it's such an amazing hobby. And the fact that I get to make other readers happy is awesome. So even just as the product has grown, the messages that we get about if someone got a perfect recommendation from StoryGraph, or they hadn't read for years, and now an easy form of, you know, what are you in the mood for? Check a few boxes, and we'll show you some books that fit, whatever it is. That's just so...it's so awesome just to be able to enhance readers' lives that way in terms of the things they're reading and getting them excited about reading again or keeping them excited.
\n\nSo those are the things that keep me going, both the personal nature of enjoying my work and enjoying trying to be the best founder and CEO that I can and building a great product. It's always great when you build something, and people just enjoy using it and like using it. So I'm always incentivized to keep making the product better, the experience better.
\n\nI'm currently mid a redesign. And I'm just so excited to get it out because it's going to touch on a lot of repeated pain points that we've been having for years. And I just can't wait for everyone to see it and see that we've listened to them. And we're making progress still like three and a bit years on since we launched out of beta.
\n\nWhat's tough? Previously, what's been tough is navigating, remaining independent, and bootstrapped with just personally trying to make money to just live my life. So I had five years of runway. And it was this tricky situation about when I had a couple of years left, I'm thinking, wow, I really like doing this, but I'm going to need to start earning money soon. But I also don't want to get investment. I don't want to stop doing this. I can't stop doing this. We've got hundreds of thousands of customers.
\n\nAnd so kind of trying to balance my personal needs and life situations with the work I've been doing because I've been working so hard on it for so long that in the last couple of years, it's gotten to a point where it's like, how do I craft the life I want out of a product that is very not set up to be an indie bootstrapped product? [laughs] Typically, you want to do a B2B. You want to start earning money from your product as early as possible. And I feel like I've landed in a product that's typically funded, VC-backed, that kind of thing. So kind of navigating that has been a fun challenge.
\n\nThere's not been anything that's kind of demoralized me or held me back, or made me think I shouldn't do it. And it's just kind of been a fun challenge trying to...yeah, just navigate that. And we've been doing things like we're currently in the process of transitioning our...we have a Plus Plan. And when we launched it, it was essentially a grab bag of features. We're completely changing the feature set. And we right now have six and a half thousand people who are on that plan. But we don't have product market fit on that plan, and I can tell from when I do certain surveys the responses I get back.
\n\nAnd so we're completely transitioning that to focus in on our most popular feature, which is the stats that we offer. And so that's kind of scary, but it's part of making that Plus Plan more sticky and easier to sell because it's going to be for your power users who love data. So they want all the data when they are reading.
\n\nAnd then the other thing is, okay, what kind of business avenue can we start which fits in with the ethos of the product but brings in more revenue for StoryGraph? And so, we launched a giveaway segment in our app where publishers and authors can pay to list competitions for users to win copies of their books. And it's essentially a win-win-win because publishers and authors get another channel to market their books. Users get to win free books, and readers love winning free books. And StoryGraph has another revenue source that helps us stay independent and profitable, and sustainable in the long run.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's wonderful. And there are two tracks I want to follow up on there; one is your decision not to seek funding; if you could just tell me a little more about the reasoning and your thought process behind that. And you've already touched on a little bit of the other ways you're looking at monetizing the app.
\n\nNADIA: Since I was a teenager, I've always been interested in business, economics, entrepreneurship. I've always felt very entrepreneurial. I've read so many founder stories and startup stories over the years. And you hear about venture capitalists who come in, and even if it's fine for the first year or two, ultimately, they want a return. And at some point, that could come at odds with your mission or your goals for your company.
\n\nAnd when I think about two things, the kind of life I want and also the nature of the product I'm building as well, VC just doesn't fit. And I know there are so many different funding programs and styles right now, a lot more friendlier [laughs] than VC. But I'm just focusing on VC because when I was younger, I used to think that was a marker of success. VC funding that was the track I thought I was going to go down, and that was what I kind of idolized as, oh my gosh, yes, getting a funding round of millions and millions and then building this huge company. That was how I used to be, so it's so interesting how I've completely gone to the other side.
\n\nThat idea that you could have mismatched goals and how it's ruined companies, once you take the first round of funding and you grow and expand, then you've got to keep taking more to just stay alive until some liquidation event. That just doesn't appeal to me. And I just think there's something ultimately very powerful and valuable about building a product without giving up any ownership to anybody else and being able to make it into something that people love, and that's profitable, and can give the people who run it great lifestyles. I just think that's a mark of an excellent product, and I just want to build one of those.
\n\nAnd then I think also the nature of the product itself being a book tracking app. I think the product has done well because it is run and built so closely by myself and Rob. And so it's like, people talk about how, oh, you can tell it's built for readers by readers by people who care. And I run the company's Instagram, and it's not just me talking about the product.
\n\nI'm talking with a bunch of our users about books and what we're reading. And it really feels like it's just got such a great community feel. And I worry that that can get lost with certain types of investment that I've previously thought that I wanted in my life. And so, yeah, that's the reason why I've kind of strayed away from the investment world.
\n\nAnd then it's gotten to the point, like, now we're at the point where we don't need funding because we've been able to get to profitability by ourselves. So we don't need any type of funding. And we're just going to try and keep doing things to keep making the product better, to convert more people to the Plus Plan.
\n\nAnd, hopefully, our giveaways platform grows in the way we want such that our goal is to just stay profitable and independent forever for as long as possible. And we think that way, we're going to have the most fun running the company, and the product is going to be the best it can be because there's not going to be competing incentives or goals for the product.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. And it sounds like, in reality, in the real case, you had a team, and you had the skills yourself to be able to move the product forward without having to take on funding or take on additional support, which is awesome. And I actually really like your background. I also have a degree in economics. So I'm curious if the economics and philosophy, all of that, really lends itself to your skills as a founder. Is that accurate?
\n\nNADIA: I don't think so.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs]
\n\nNADIA: I love my degree. I get sad when I meet econ grads or econ majors, and they're like, "Oh, I hated it. Oh, it was so boring," or whatever. I'm like, "No, it was so great." I'm a big microeconomics fan, so I was all about...I didn't like macro that much. I was all about the game theory and the microeconomic theory, that kind of stuff.
\n\nI don't think there's anything that really ties into my skills as a founder. I feel like that's more to do with my upbringing and personality than what I studied. But, I mean, one of the reasons I did love my degree is because there are elements that do crop up. It's such a widely applicable...the subjects I did are so widely applicable, philosophy, different ways of seeing the world and thinking and approaching different people.
\n\nAnd then, obviously, economics that's essentially behavior, and how markets work, and incentives, and all that kind of stuff. And when you get to pricing and all those sorts of things, and business, and then politics as well, I mean, everything is politics, right? People interacting. So there are definitely things and conversations I had at university, which I see things crop up day to day that I can tie back to it. But yeah, I think it doesn't really...my specific degree, I don't think it's made me a better founder than I would have been if I'd studied, I don't know, English or Math or something.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right, yeah. I think economics is one of those where it's kind of so broadly applicable. You're kind of using it, but you don't even realize it sometimes. [laughs]
\n\nNADIA: Yeah.
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\n\nVICTORIA: So what made you decide to go to a bootcamp right after finishing school?
\n\nNADIA: So I'd always been entrepreneurial. I remember...I don't know where exactly it started from, whether I got it from my mom. I know she's always been very entrepreneurial and into business. The earliest memory I have of doing something that was very specifically business-oriented was in what we call sixth form in the UK, which is essentially the last two years of high school before you go to university or college; we had this scheme called Young Enterprise.
\n\nAnd essentially, you got into teams of people, small teams, or they could be quite big, actually. It could be up to 20 people. And you started a business, and there were trade shows, and pitch meetings, and all that kind of stuff, so I remember getting involved in all that sort of stuff at school.
\n\nBut I'd always been on the investment banking track because when I was young...so my parents...we come from a poor background. And so my parents were very much like, you know, try and find high-paying careers to go into so that you can pay for whatever you want and you have a much better lifestyle. So I had gotten onto the investment banking track from the age of 14 when I went with a friend...at the school, I went to, there was a Take Your Daughter to Work Day.
\n\nMy dad said, "Oh, you want to go to try and find someone whose parent works in an investment bank or something like that. That's like a great career to go into." And so I went with a friend's dad to UBS. And I remember being blown away, like, wow, this is so fascinating. Because I think everything seems so impressive when you're 14, and you're walking into a space like that, and everything seems very lively. And everyone's walking around dressed sharp. They've got their BlackBerries.
\n\nSo from the age of 14 until 20, it would have been, I was very much I am going to work in an investment bank. And I did all the things that you would do, like all the schemes, the spring programs. And it got to my final internship. And I just remember at the internship being rather disillusioned and disappointed by the experience. I remember thinking, is this it? I was studying at Oxford, and I put so much into my studies. And I remember thinking; I'm working so hard. And this is what I come to? Is this it?
\n\nAnd so around the time as well, I was also meeting a lot of people in the entrepreneurship space, social enterprises, people doing their own ventures. And I just remember thinking, oh, I feel like I've got to go down that track. And I ended up winning a place on a coding course. It was set up specifically to help more women get into tech. And it was called Code First Girls. I won a place that started...it was just part-time.
\n\nWhat I did was I actually...I got the banking job from Deutsche Bank, it was, but I decided to turn it down. It was a very risky decision. I turned it down, and I stayed in Oxford after graduating and worked in the academic office for a while. And then, twice a week, I would go to London and do this coding course. And during it, on Twitter, I remember seeing a competition for a full-paid place at this bootcamp called Makers Academy. And I just thought to myself, having tech skills, I'd heard the feedback that it's a very powerful thing to have.
\n\nAnd I remember thinking I should go for this competition. And I went for the competition, and I won a free place at the bootcamp. If I didn't win a free place at the bootcamp, I'm not sure what would have happened because I'm not sure whether at that point I would have thought, oh, paying £8,000 to go to a software bootcamp is what I should do. I'm not sure I would have got there. So that's how I got there, essentially. I won a competition for a bootcamp after having a taste of what coding was like and seeing how freeing it was to just be able to have a computer and an internet connection and build something.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that's wonderful. I love that story. And I've spent a lot of time with Women Who Code and trying to get women excited about coding. And that's exactly the story is that once you have it, it's a tool in your toolset. And if you want to build something, you can make it happen. And that's why it's important to continue the education and get access for people who might not normally have it. And you continue to do some of that work as well, right? You're involved in organizations like this?
\n\nNADIA: Like Code First Girls? No. I did some years ago. I would go and attend Rails Girls workshops and be a mentor at them, at those. And while I was at Pivotal, I helped with events like codebar, which were essentially evenings where people who were learning to code or more junior could come and pair with someone more senior on whatever project they wanted to.
\n\nSo I did a bunch of that stuff in the years after leaving Makers Academy. And I was even a TA for a short time for a couple of weeks at Makers Academy as well after I graduated. But in more recent years, I haven't done much in that space, but I would love to do more at some point. I don't have the bandwidth to right now. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: And you're still a major speaker going and keynoting events all around the world. Have you done any recently, or have any coming up that you're excited about?
\n\nNADIA: So before the pandemic, my last talk, I keynoted RubyWorld in Japan. That was in November 2019. And then the pandemic hit, and 2020 June, July was when StoryGraph had some viral tweets, and so we kicked off. And amongst all of that, I was being invited to speak at remote events, but it just didn't make sense for me. Not only was I so busy with work, but I put a lot of hours into my talks. And part of the fun is being there, hallway track, meeting people, being on stage. And so it just didn't appeal to me to spend so much time developing the talk to just deliver it at home.
\n\nAnd so, I just spent all the time on StoryGraph. And I remember when events started happening again; I wondered whether I would even be invited to speak because I felt more detached from the Ruby community. Most of the conferences that I did were in the Ruby community. StoryGraph is built on Rails. Yeah, I just thought maybe I'll get back to that later.
\n\nBut all of a sudden, I had a series of amazing invitations. Andrew Culver started up The Rails SaaS Conference in LA in October, and I was invited to speak at that. And then, I was invited to keynote RubyConf, that was recently held in Houston, Texas, and also invited to keynote the satellite conference, RubyConf Mini in Providence, that happened a couple of weeks earlier. And so I had a very busy October and November, a lot of travel.
\n\nI developed two new talks, a Ruby talk and a StoryGraph talk. It was my first ever time giving a talk on StoryGraph. It was a lot of work and amongst a lot of StoryGraph work that I needed to do. All of the talks went well, and it was so much fun to be back on the circuit again. And I'm looking forward to whatever speaking things crop up this year.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's wonderful. I'm excited. I'll have to see if I can find a recording and get caught up myself. Going back to an earlier question, you mentioned quite a few times about market research and talking to the customers. And I'm just curious if you have a method or a set of tools that you use to run those experiments and collect that feedback and information.
\n\nNADIA: Yes. So I remember one of the first things I did years ago was I read "The Mom Test" by Rob Fitzpatrick. And that's great for just getting the foundation of when you talk to customers; you don't want to lead them on in any shape or form. You just want to get the raw truth and go from there. So that's the underpinning of everything I do.
\n\nAnd then, I learned from friends I made through Pivotal about how you put together a script for a customer research. You can't just have bullet points or whatever. You should have a script. And the foundation of that script is a hypothesis about what you're trying to find out in that round of research. And once you figure out your hypothesis, then you can put together the questions you want to ask and understand how you're going to measure the output.
\n\nSo the first ever thing I was trying to find out when I first started interviewing people was just very general. It was just like, are there any pain points? I was just trying to figure out are there any pain points among the avid reader group of people? And then I remember the results from that were, "No place for consistent, high-quality recommendations." And so then I said, okay, how are people finding recommendations now, or what are the factors that lead to people thinking a book was great for them? And that's how I ended up getting to the moods and pace.
\n\nBut when I do my interviews, I record them all. I watch them back. And I condense everything on sticky notes. And I use a virtual tool. And I try to take word for word. When I summarize, I still just try and use their specific words as much as possible. So I'm not adding my own editing over what they say. Every single interviewee has a different color.
\n\nAnd I essentially group them into themes, and that's how I unlock whatever the answers are for that round. And then I use that...I might have been trying to find out what to build next or whether we should go down a certain product direction or not. And so, depending on the outcome, that helps me make up my mind about what to do. So that's the high-level process that I follow.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, that sounds very methodical, and interesting for me to hear your perspective on that. And you mentioned that you do have a redesign coming out soon for StoryGraph. Are there any other particular products or features that you're really excited to talk about coming up soon?
\n\nNADIA: Yeah, I'm so excited about the redesign because we're bringing out...it's not just a UI improvement; it's a user experience improvement as well. So there are a lot of little features that have been asked for over the years. And actually, it was trying to deliver one of them that sparked the whole redesign. So people really want a marked as finished button. There's no way to mark as finished. You just toggle a book back to read. And some people find this quite counterintuitive, or it doesn't quite explain what they're doing.
\n\nAnd so when I came to deliver the mark as finished button, this was months and months ago now, I realized that the book pane was just becoming so cluttered, and I was trying to fight with it to squeeze in this link. And I remember thinking; this is not the only thing people want to see on the book pane. They also want to see when they read the book without having to go into the book page. They also want to be able to add it to their next queue.
\n\nAnd I just said, you know what? I need to redesign this whole thing. And so I was able to luckily work with Saron Yitbarek, who is married to my co-founder, Rob. There's a funny story about all of that. And she helped me do this redesign based on all my customer research. And so I'm just so excited to get it out because the other thing that we're bringing with it is dark mode, which is our most requested feature in history.
\n\nAnd it's funny because I've always felt like, ah, that's a nice-to-have. But obviously, for some people, it's not a nice-to-have; it's an accessibility issue. And even me, I'm quite strict with my bedtime. I try and be offline an hour before bed. In bed by 11, up at 6, and even me if I want to track my pages, I'm like, ooh, this is a bit bright.
\n\nAnd my phone itself is set on adaptive, so it's light mode during the day and dark mode during the night. And even me, I can see why people really want this and why it would just improve their experience, especially if everything else on your phone is dark. So I'm really excited to get that out, mainly for the UX improvements.
\n\nAnd the other thing I'm really excited to do is transition the Plus Plan to being the advanced stats package rather than the random selection of features right now. Because not only will the people who pay us get more complex stats functionalities such that they feel like, wow, the subscription fee that I pay not only does it still make me feel like I'm supporting an alternative to Goodreads, an independent alternative to Goodreads I also get such value from these extra features.
\n\nBut the other thing is what I found from my customer research is that if you're a Plus customer, there's often one or two of the Plus features that you love and that you don't really use the others. But they're all really great features. And so what I'm really excited about is that we're going to make all the non-stats features free for everybody. And so I'm so excited for, like, we have a feature where if you put in a group of usernames, we look at all of your to-read lists and suggest great books for you to buddy-read together.
\n\nNow, there's a bunch of Plus users who aren't social and don't care about it. But there's going to be a bunch of our free users who are so excited about that feature, probably will use it with their book clubs, things like that. We have up-next suggestions where we suggest what you should pick up next from your to-read pile based on a range of factors. It could be, oh, you're behind on your reading goal; here's a fast-paced book. Or this book is very similar to the one that you just finished, so if you want something the same, pick up this one. And, again, that's behind a paywall right now, and I'm just so excited for everybody to be able to use that.
\n\nWhen I remember starting out with StoryGraph, I remember thinking, wow, the way this is going, wouldn't it be so cool if we could just suggest books that would be the next perfect read for you? Because a lot of people have a pile of books by their bedside table or on their shelves, and they're just like, well, which one should I start with? And this tool literally helps you to do that. And so I can't wait for everyone to be able to try it. And so that's why I'm excited about that transition because the Plus Plan will be better, and the free product will be better.
\n\nVICTORIA: That sounds amazing. And I'm thinking in my head like, oh, I should start a book club with thoughtbot. Because there are some engineering management and other types of books we want to read, so maybe we could use StoryGraph to manage that and keep ourselves motivated to actually finish them. [laughs]
\n\nNADIA: Cool.
\n\nVICTORIA: No, this is wonderful. And what books are on your reading list coming up?
\n\nNADIA: Yes. I am excited to read...I'm not sure...I'm blanking on the series' name. But the first book is called "The Poppy War." I don't know whether it's called "The Burning God" or if that's the third book in the series. But it's this very popular trilogy, and I'm excited to read that soon. I'm doing a slow chronological read of Toni Morrison's fiction. I recently read "Song of Solomon," which was great, really, really good. And so I'm excited to read more of her novels this year.
\n\nI'm also on a kind of narrative nonfiction kick right now. I love narrative nonfiction. So I just finished reading "American Kingpin," which is about Silk Road. And I've picked up "Black Edge," which is about SAC Capital and Steve Cohen and that whole hedge fund insider trading situation. So I'm probably going to look for more of the same afterwards.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, that's very exciting. And it's inspiring that as a founder, you also still have time to read [laughs] and probably because StoryGraph makes it easy and motivating for you to do so.
\n\nNADIA: Yeah, everyone thought that my reading would tank once I started the company, but, in fact, it's multiplied severalfold. And a couple of reasons; one is it's very important in general for me to make time for me because I'm in a situation that could easily become very stressful and could lead to burnout. So I make sure that I make time for me to read and to go to dance class regularly, which is my other main hobby.
\n\nBut then, secondly, I feel like I can justify it as work. Because I say, wow, me being a reader and being able to communicate with people on Instagram and on Twitter about books, not just the product, adds legitimacy to me as the founder and developer of this product. And so it's important that I keep reading. And it also helps the product be better because I understand what features are needed. So, for example, I never used to listen to audiobooks. I'm a big podcast person; I love music. So between those two, when does audio fit in?
\n\nAnd also, I didn't like the idea that I could just be absent-minded sometimes with some podcasts, but with a book, you don't want spoilers. It could get confusing. But I started listening to audiobooks because we had a large audiobook user base. And they would ask for certain features, and it was really hard for me to relate and to understand their needs.
\n\nAnd now that I have started listening to audiobooks as well, we made some great audiobook listeners-focused additions to the app last year, including you can track your minutes. So you can literally get you read this many pages in a day, but you also listened to this many minutes. You can set an hours goal for the year, so not just a reading goal or a pages goal. You can set an hours goal.
\n\nOr maybe you're someone like me, where audiobooks are the smaller proportion of your reading, and you just want it all calculated as pages. And so I've got it on the setting where it's like, even when I track an audiobook in StoryGraph, convert it to pages for me, and I just have my nice, all-round page number at the end of the year.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's so cool. Really interesting. And I've had such a nice time chatting with you today. Is there anything else that you'd like to share as a final takeaway for our listeners?
\n\nNADIA: If you are someone who wants to start a company, maybe you want to bootstrap, you've got a product idea, I think it's honestly just trust the process. It will take time. But if you trust the process, you listen to customers and really listen to them...research ways to talk to customers, and don't cut corners with the process. There have been so many times when I've done a whole round of research, and then I say, oh, do I have to go through all these now and actually do a synthesis? I think anecdotally; I can figure out what the gist was; no, do the research. You don't know what insights you're going to find.
\n\nAnd I think if you just trust that process...and I think the other thing is before you get to that stage, start building up a runway. Having a runway is so powerful. And so whether it's saving a bit more or diverting funds from something else if you have a runway and you can give yourself a couple of years, a few years without worrying about your next paycheck, that is incredibly valuable to getting started on your bootstrapping journey.
\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you. That's so wonderful. And I appreciate you coming on today to be with us.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Mastodon at Victoria Guido.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Nadia Odunayo.
Sponsored By:
Dr. Aadeel Akhtar is the Founder and CEO of PSYONIC, a company whose mission is to develop advanced prostheses that are affordable for everyone.
\n\nVictoria talks to Dr. Akhtar about the gaps in the market he saw in current prosthetic ability, advancements PSYONIC has been able to make since commercialization, and essential principles and values that were important to him when building out the PSYONIC team.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host Victoria Guido. And with me today is Dr. Aadeel Akhtar, Founder and CEO of PSYONIC, a company whose mission is to develop advanced prostheses that are affordable for everyone. Aadeel, thank you for joining me.
\n\nDR. AADEEL: Thank you for having me, Victoria. This is fun.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, I'm excited to meet you. So I actually ran into you earlier this week at a San Diego tech meetup. And I'm curious just to hear more about your company PSYONIC.
\n\nDR. AADEEL: So, as you mentioned, we develop advanced bionic limbs that are affordable and accessible. And this is actually something I've wanted to do my whole life ever since I was seven years old. My parents are from Pakistan. I was born in the Chicago suburbs. But I was visiting, and that was the first time I met someone missing a limb; and she was my age missing her right leg, using a tree branch as a crutch, living in poverty. And that's kind of what inspired me to go into this field.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. And maybe you can start with what gaps in the market did you see in current prosthetic ability?
\n\nDR. AADEEL: When we first started making these prosthetic devices, we were 3D printing them. And we thought that the biggest issue with prosthetic devices was that they were way too expensive and saw that with 3D printing, we'd be able to reduce the prices on them. And that's true; it was actually one of the biggest issues, but it wasn't the biggest issue.
\n\nAfter talking with hundreds of patients and clinicians, the number one thing that we found that patients and clinicians would raise issue with was that their super expensive bionic hands were breaking all the time. And these were made with injection molded plastics and custom-machined steel. And they weren't doing anything crazy with it. They would accidentally hit the hand against the side of a table, but because they were made out of rigid components, they would end up snapping up those joints.
\n\nAnd a natural hand, for example, if you bang a natural hand against a table or a rigid object, then it flexes out of the way. It has compliance in it, and that's why it's able to survive those types of hits and impacts a little bit more. It forced us to think outside the box of how can we still leverage the low-cost manufacturing of 3D printing but make this hand more robust than anything out there? And that's when I started looking into soft robotics.
\n\nAnd with soft robotics, instead of making rigid links in your robot, so instead of having rigid joints and components, you'd use soft materials like silicone that are more akin to your skin and your own biological tissues that are more flexible and compliant. So we started making the fingers out of rubber and silicone.
\n\nAnd now we've been able to do things like punch through flaming boards, and I dropped it from the roof of my house 30 feet up in the air, and it survived. We put it in a dryer for 10 minutes, and it survived tumbling around in a dryer. I've arm wrestled against the para-triathlete national champion and lost. So this thing was built to survive a lot more than just hitting your hand against the side of a table.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow, that sounds incredible. And I love that you started with a premise, and then you got feedback from your users and found a completely different problem, even though that same problem still existed [laughs] about the low cost.
\n\nDR. AADEEL: Absolutely.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow. So taking it back a little bit more to the beginning, so you knew you always wanted to do prosthetics since you grew up in Pakistan and saw people without their limbs. Take me a little bit more from the beginning of the journey. When did you decide to start the company officially?
\n\nDR. AADEEL: And just to clarify, I was just visiting Pakistan for the summer, but I grew up and was raised here in the U.S. So I went to Loyola University Chicago for undergrad, and I got a bachelor's degree in biology there, followed by a master's in computer science. And the original plan was to actually become an MD working with patients with amputations and developing prosthetics for them.
\n\nBut while I was an undergraduate student at Loyola, I took my first computer science class, and I absolutely loved it. I loved everything about coding, and programming, and engineering. And I realized that if I became a straight-up MD, I wouldn't get to do any of the cool things that I was learning in my computer science classes. And I wanted to figure out a way to combine my passions in engineering and computer science with clinical medicine and prosthetics.
\n\nAnd right down the street at a hospital formerly known as The Rehabilitation Institute of Chicago...it's now the Shirley Ryan AbilityLab. It's the number-one rehabilitation hospital in the U.S. for the last 31 years. They made these huge breakthroughs in mind control bionic limbs where they were doing a surgery where they would reroute your nerves to other muscles that you already have on your body. And then, when you try to imagine bending your phantom elbow or making a phantom fist, your chest muscles would contract. And then you could use those signals to then control this robotic limb that was designed by Dean Kamen that was sponsored by DARPA and cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. That was just absolutely incredible.
\n\nAnd it was this perfect mixture of engineering and clinical medicine, and it was exactly what I wanted to get into. But, as you'd mentioned, we're all about accessibility, and a $100,000 cost hand would not cut it. And so I ended up finishing a master's in computer science. I taught at Loyola for a couple of years and then went to the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, where I got another master's in electrical and computer engineering, a Ph.D. in neuroscience. And then I finished the first year of medical school before I left to run PSYONIC because it is a lot more fun building bionic limbs [laughs] than finishing medical school.
\n\nAnd while I was a graduate student, we started 3D printing our own prosthetic hands, and we got the chance in 2014 to go down to Quito, Ecuador, where we were working with a nonprofit organization called The Range of Motion Project. And their whole mission is to provide prosthetics to those who can't afford them in the U.S., Guatemala, and Ecuador.
\n\nAnd we went down there, and we were working with a patient who had lost his left hand 35 years prior due to machine gunfire from a helicopter; he was in the Ecuadorian Army. And there was a border war between Ecuador and Peru. And Juan, our patient, in front of international news stations, said that he felt as though a part of him had come back. And that was because he actually made a pinch with his left hand for the first time in 35 years.
\n\nAnd you have to imagine the hand at that time was three times the size of an average natural hand, adult human hand. Had wires going everywhere, breadboards, power supplies, the walls, you name it. And despite that, he said that a part of him had come back. And he actually forgot how to make a pinch with his left hand, and we had to retrain his brain by placing a mirror in front of his left side reflecting his right hand, tricking his brain into thinking that his left hand was actually there.
\n\nAnd he would make a pinch with both sides, and it would reactivate the muscles in his forearm on his left side. And when he said that, that's when I realized that if I stay in academia, then this just ends up as a journal paper. And if we want everyone to feel the same way that Juan did, we had to commercialize the technology. And so that's when PSYONIC was born.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that you're working on that as someone who's from Washington, D.C., and has done a lot of work in veterans and homeless organizations and seen how life-changing getting access to limbs and regaining capability can be for people.
\n\nDR. AADEEL: Absolutely. In fact, our first user in the U.S. is a U.S. Army sergeant who lost his hand in Iraq in 2005 due to roadside bombs, Sergeant Garrett Anderson. He used a hook on a daily basis, and with our hand, he's actually able to feel his daughter's hand, which is something that he wasn't able to do with any other prosthesis. And for him to tell us that that is why we do what we do.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And I saw on your website that you have several patents and have talked about the advances you've been able to make in what I'm going to call the sensorimotor bionic limbs. Can you tell me a little bit more about some of the advancements you've been able to make since you decided to commercialize this?
\n\nDR. AADEEL: The first thing that usually users notice is that, and clinicians notice as well, is that the hand is the fastest bionic hand in the world. So the fingers close in about 200 milliseconds. And to put that into context, we can wink our eyes in about 300 milliseconds. So it's technically faster than the blink of an eye, which is kind of a cool statistic there. So it's super fast. And the fingers are super resistant to impact, so they're very durable. And so we've got a couple of patents on both of those items in particular.
\n\nAnd then there's the touch feedback aspect. So this is the only hand on the market that gives users touch feedback. And so the methods that we have to mold the fingers to enable that sensory feedback that is what our third patent is on for the hand, and it just looks really cool. It's got like this black carbon fiber on it that just looks really futuristic and bionic.
\n\nAnd it just gives users the confidence that this isn't something to be pitied; this is something that's really cool. And especially for our war heroes, that's something to be celebrated that I lost my hand for our country, and now I've got this really cool one that can do all of the things that my hand used to do.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I also saw that it's reimbursable by Medicare in the U.S. And I was curious if you had any lessons learned from that process for getting eligible for that.
\n\nDR. AADEEL: Yeah. And that was part of the goal from the very beginning. After we did our customer discovery process, where we figured out what the pain points are and found out that durability was one of the biggest issues, obviously, one of the other issues was the really expensive price of the other hands, and typically what we call a multi-articulated hand, so that's one where each one of the fingers move individually.
\n\nThose are only covered by the VA, so if you're in the military or workman's comp so if you had a workplace accident. And that only accounted for about 10% of the U.S. market. And what the clinicians kept telling us over and over again was that if you can get the hand covered by Medicare, then usually all the other insurance companies will follow suit, like your Blue Cross Blue Shield, your Aetna, your Kaiser, et cetera.
\n\nSo that was our design goal from the beginning. So how can we hit a price point that Medicare would cover but also make this fully featured that no other hand can do any of these other things? What it primarily came down to was hitting that price point. And as long as we hit that price point, then Medicare was going to be fine with it. So we invented a lot of the manufacturing methods that we use in-house to make the hand in particular.
\n\nSo we do all the silicone molding. We do all the carbon fiber work. We do all the fabric work. We do all the assembly of it in-house in our warehouse here in San Diego. And by being so vertically integrated, we're able to then iterate very quickly and make these innovations happen at a much more rapid scale so that we can get them out there faster and then help more people who need it.
\n\nVICTORIA: So you've really grown tremendously from when you first had the project, and now you have a team here in San Diego. Do you have any lessons learned for enabling your team to drive faster in that innovation?
\n\nDR. AADEEL: Yeah, the biggest thing that I feel like a lot of things come down to is just having grit. So especially with a startup, it's always going to be a roller coaster ride. And for us, I think one of the big motivating factors for us is the patients themselves when they get to do these things that they weren't able to do before.
\n\nSo another one of our first patients, Tina, had just become a grandmother, and she was able to feed her granddaughter for the first time because she was able to hold the bottle with her bionic hand, The Ability Hand, and then hold her granddaughter with her natural hand and then feed her using The Ability Hand. It's, like I said, moments like that is why we do what we're doing. It gives us that motivation to work those long hours, make those deadlines so that we can help as many people as possible.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. So you have that motivating power behind your idea, which makes a lot of sense. What else in your customer discovery sprint was surprising to you as you moved through that process?
\n\nDR. AADEEL: So there was definitely the robustness that was surprising. There was the cost that wasn't necessarily the highest priority thing, which we thought would be the highest priority. And the speed and just having to rely on visual feedback, you have to kind of look at the hand as you're doing the task that you're doing, but you have to look at it very intently. So that takes a lot of cognitive load. You have to pay attention very specifically to am I doing the right movement with my hand? In ways that you wouldn't necessarily have to do with a natural hand.
\n\nAnd by making the hand move so responsive as it is and move so quickly, in addition to having that touch feedback, that reduces, or at least we believe it'll reduce a lot of that cognitive load for our patients so that they don't have to be constantly monitoring exactly what the hand is doing in order to do a lot of the tasks or the activities of daily living that they're doing on a day to day basis. The whole customer discovery process drove what features we were going to focus on in actually making this hand a reality.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that makes sense. And I love hearing about what came up that surprised people. And I appreciate your commitment to that process to really drive your business idea and to solve this problem that happens to so many people in the United States. Well, how widespread is this issue? And, of course, I'm sure you're targeting more than just the United States with rollout, but...
\n\nDR. AADEEL: So, globally, there are over 10 million people with hand amputations, and 80% of them actually live in developing nations, and less than 3% have access to affordable rehabilitative care. So it's a huge need worldwide, and we want to make sure that everyone has access to the best available prosthetic devices.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. So I guess commercializing this product leads to more room, more availability across for everyone.
\n\nDR. AADEEL: Absolutely. And interesting thing about that, too, is that as we were developing these, the hand in particular, we've optimized it for humans to do human tasks. And we have a programming interface that we put on it that allows researchers to control each one of the fingers like you control the speed, the position, and the force from each one of those fingers as well as you can stream all of the touch sensors like over Bluetooth or over a USB connection, and then also the location of each one of those fingers as well.
\n\nA lot of robotics researchers who are building humanoid robots and robot arms to do other tasks like manufacturing and robotic surgery and things like that have been purchasing our hand too. So notably, for example, NASA and Meta, so Facebook Meta, have purchased our hands, and NASA is putting it on a humanoid astronaut robot, which hopefully will eventually go into space. And then, on Earth, they'd be able to control it and then manipulate objects in space.
\n\nAnd it's opened up an entirely new market, but the critical thing here is that it's the exact same hand that the humans are getting that the robots are getting. And what this allows us to do is just expand our volume of production and our sales so that we can actually further drive down the costs and the pricing for the human side of things as well.
\n\nSo if we're talking about places like India, or Pakistan, or Guatemala, or Ecuador where there are no government incentives in place to reimburse at a rate that they might in the U.S., then we can actually get the price point to one that's actually affordable in those areas as well. And I'm really excited about those prospects.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's so cool that future robot astronauts will be financing people who have no ability [laughs] to go into space or anything like that. That's a cool business idea. I wonder, when did that happen for you, or what was that like when you realized that there was this other potential untapped market for robotic limbs?
\n\nDR. AADEEL: It's interesting. It was always in the back of our minds because, as I was a Ph.D. student, I was in the Ph.D. group that focused on robotics, in particular more so than prosthetics. And I was the first one in the group to actually kind of have the prosthetic spin on things. And so I had an idea of where the market was for the robotic side of things. And I had some connections as well.
\n\nAnd so I was actually giving a talk at Georgia Tech early last year. The Director of the Georgia Tech Robotics Institute, Dr. Seth Hutchinson, he was telling me that...he was like, "You should go to the big robotics conference, ICRA, because people are going to be like...absolutely love this product for their robots." And we were just like, huh, we never considered that.
\n\nAnd so we decided to go, and it was just absolutely nuts. We've had researchers from all over the world being like, "How can I get this hand?" And compared to a lot of the robotic hands that are out there, even on the robotic side, this is a much lower price point than what they've been dealing with. And by solving a lot of the problems on the human side, like durability, and sensory feedback, and dexterity, and the pricing, it actually solved a lot of the problems on the robotic side as well. So I was just like...after we had gone to that conference, we realized that, yeah, we can actually make this work as well.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really cool. And it sounds like tapping into this robotics market and networking really worked for you. What else about your market research or strategy seem to be effective in your business growth?
\n\nDR. AADEEL: This is interesting as well. So half of our sales actually come from social media, which for a medical device company is usually unheard of. [laughs] Because usually the model is, for medical devices, where you have a group of sales reps located across the regions that you're selling and so across the U.S. And they would visit each one of the clinics, and then they would work with the clinicians directly in getting these on the patients. That usually accounts for like 99% of sales. And so for us, for half of them to come from social media, it was a goal that we had set out to, but it was also surprising that that accounted for so much of our volumes and our revenue.
\n\nThe way we set it up was that we wanted to make videos of our hand that highlighted things that our hand could do that were novel and unique. And so, for example, we wanted to highlight the durability of the hand as well as the dexterity and the touch feedback. And so some of the first videos that we made were like arm wrestling against a bionic hand. And what's cool about that is that the general public just found that very interesting in general.
\n\nBut also, when a clinician and a patient sees that, wow, this hand can actually withstand the forces of an actual arm wrestling match, then they're also just as impressed. And the same thing with punching through three wooden boards that we set on fire; if it can handle that, then it can handle activities of daily living. General public seizes, and they're just like, "Whoa, that's so cool."
\n\nBut then clinicians and the patients they see that, and they were like, "My prosthetic hand couldn't do this before." And so then they contact us, and we're like, "How can we get your hand?" And then we'll either put them in contact with a clinician, or we'll work with one of the clinicians that they are already working with then go through their insurance that way. And so it's just been a really exciting and fun way to generate, like, expand our market and generate sales that we didn't necessarily think was going to be a viable way from the start.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. I totally get it. I mean, I want one, and both my hands still work.
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\n\nVICTORIA: Have you ever seen someone rock climb with the prosthetic hand?
\n\nDR. AADEEL: Not yet, but that is something that is definitely on our docket.
\n\nVICTORIA: Okay, well, we need to do it. Since we're both in San Diego, I can help you. [laughs]
\n\nDR. AADEEL: Sweet. I love it. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, we can figure that out because there are, especially in the climbing gyms, there are usually groups that come in and climb with prosthetic limbs on a regular basis since it's a kind of a surprisingly accessible sport. [laughs]
\n\nDR. AADEEL: So one of the great things about being here in San Diego is that there's like a ton of incredible resources for building prosthetics and then for users of them as well. So the Challenged Athletes Foundation is located 10 minutes from us. So we're located in Scripps Ranch. And the Challenged Athletes Foundation they're like over in the Sorrento Valley area. They hold the para-triathlon every year.
\n\nAnd so we just went to their event a couple of months ago, and it was absolutely incredible. And so we've got like a five-year goal of making an ability leg. So we have The Ability Hand right now. So the ability leg, we want to actually be able to perform a triathlon, so run, bike, and swim with the leg. And I think that would be a phenomenal goal. And all the pieces are here in San Diego.
\n\nWe got the military hospital, and so we've got the veteran population. We've got the Challenged Athletes Foundation. We've got UCSD, and they're incredible at engineering. We've got two prosthetic schools right around LA, so Loma Linda University in California State University, Dominguez Hills. And there are only 11 in the entire nation, and two of them just happen to be right around here.
\n\nIt's a med tech hub. There's like a bunch of med tech companies and both startups and huge ones like NuVasive that are in the area. And it's a huge engineering place, too, with Qualcomm. And so we want to bring all of those resources together. And it's my goal to turn San Diego into the bionics capital of the world, where people from all over the world are coming here to have the most advanced devices ever created.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, I love that idea. And you just moved to San Diego a few years ago. Is that right?
\n\nDR. AADEEL: Actually, six months ago, so it's very new for us.
\n\nVICTORIA: Six months? [laughter] Well, you sound like me when I moved to San Diego. I was like; it's great here. [laughter]
\n\nDR. AADEEL: Well, I hope you still find it to be great. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I love it. I've been here for two years now. And, yes, there's more to it than just the weather being good all the time. [laughter] There's a lot here.
\n\nDR. AADEEL: [laughs] It doesn't hurt, though, right?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And, I mean, I love that I can still do my networking events outdoors all year long, so going on hikes and stuff versus being indoors in the winter. But I find it fascinating that San Diego has just so much biotech all around, and I will happily support how I can [laughs] turning it into a bionic limb capital. I think that's a great idea.
\n\nWell, so I wanted to get back...we're talking about the future right now. I wanted to ask about building your team. So you started the company almost seven years ago, and you've grown the team a lot since then. Did you have any essential principles or values that you started with when you were building out your team?
\n\nDR. AADEEL: Yeah. So when we were first hiring, I was still a Ph.D. student when I started the company. Our first employee was actually my undergraduate student. He's currently our Director of Engineering, Jesse Cornman. And we specifically were recruiting people that did stuff outside of the lab, so the electrical engineers and the mechanical engineers that we initially hired. We wanted to make sure that it wasn't just like the university projects that they were working on.
\n\nAnd we would find a lot of our early people from like car team so like this was like building like a solar car, so Illini Solar Car was one of our places where we'd get a lot of our early employees as well as the electrical vehicle concept team and design, build, fly, and these student organizations where they had like competitions, and they had to build real, tangible things to compete in with. And the thing is that those are the people who do this stuff for fun, and you learn the most when you're having fun doing this stuff. And so we would always look for that stuff in particular.
\n\nAnd there were some litmus tests that we'd have to be able to weed out very quickly what people know what. And so for electrical engineers, we would always ask if they know surface mount soldering because it's not like your typical soldering on a perf board or even like using a breadboard. It's like you have a circuit board, and you have to solder these very small components on there. And if you know how to solder those small components, you typically know how to code them as well. So they have some embedded systems background as well and some PCB design experience as well. And so that was like a quick litmus test that we use for the electrical engineers.
\n\nFor the mechanical engineers, it was typically if they knew how to do surface modeling. And so we would ask them, "How would you make the palm of a hand where you got these complex structures and these complex surfaces that have different geometries and different curvature?" And if they were able to do a surface modeling, then we knew that they'd be able to CAD that up pretty quickly. They probably have some sort of 3D printing experience from that as well, and that they can just rapidly iterate and prototype on the devices.
\n\nAnd so that worked really, really well. And so we were able to get a lot of bright engineers who early on in the company...and many who were student interns at the time that eventually even went on to Microsoft and Google or some of the students went to MIT and places like that. And we were very fortunate to be in the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign's ecosystem, where it was just one of the best engineering schools in the world to develop this kind of stuff.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. So you had really specific skills that you needed. [laughs] And you kind of knew the type of work or an experience that led to that. As you've expanded your team and you're building a culture of collaboration, how do you set expectations with how you all work together?
\n\nDR. AADEEL: As a startup, we all wear many, many hats. So my job, I feel like, is to fill in all the gaps. And so some days, I might be doing marketing; some days, I might be visiting a clinic and doing sales. Other times I'm working with the engineering team to make sure that we're on track over there. And it's like all this stuff in between.
\n\nAnd so being able to work cohesively like that and put on those many hats so that you know every part of the process from the marketing and sales sides but also the engineering and operations side, I think that's really allowed us to get to the point where we have by doing all these different functions together.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. So you are all located in San Diego now, so you have to be in person to work on robot hands?
\n\nDR. AADEEL: Yeah, we found that it was much easier to build a physical object in person than it was to do things remotely. At the beginning of COVID, we actually did try to, like, you know, we moved 3D printers out into people's houses and the manufacturing equipment. And then I remember just to put together a power switch that usually took like one hour to do in the lab. It took us a day and a half because one person had the circuit board, the other person had the enclosure, the other person had the thing to program it. And then each thing depended on each other. So you had to keep carting that small piece back and forth between houses, and it was just a nightmare to do that.
\n\nAnd so after a couple of months, we ended up moving back into the offices and manufacturing there with staggered work hours or whatever. And at that point, we were just like, okay, this is much more efficient when we're all in person. And honestly, a lot of our best ideas have come from just me sitting here and then just walking over to one of the engineers and being like, "Hey, what do you think of this idea?" And it's a lot harder to do when you're all remote, right?
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. Yeah, just the need to physically put pieces together [laughs] as a group makes it hard to be fully remote. And you get a lot of those ideas flowing when you're in person. What is on the horizon for you? What are you most excited about in your upcoming feature set?
\n\nDR. AADEEL: Like I said, one of the reasons why we moved here was to work with the military hospital, and so some of the work that we're doing with them is particularly exciting. The way you typically wear these prosthetic devices...so you'll have muscle sensors that are embedded in a...it's like a shell that goes around your residual limb. We call it the socket. Think about it as like a shoe for your residual limb.
\n\nAnd the thing is, as you're wearing this throughout the day, it starts to get sweaty. It starts to get uncomfortable. Things shift around. Your signals don't control the hand as well because of all these changes and everything. And with the military hospital, we're working on something called osseointegration. So instead of having this socket that's molded to your residual limb that you shove your arm into, you have a titanium implant that goes inside your bones and then comes out of your body, and then you directly attach the hand to your bones like a limb naturally should be.
\n\nAnd then, on top of that, instead of using these muscles sensors on the outside of your body, we're actually working on implanted electrodes with some of our collaborators. For example, at University of Chicago, they're doing brain implants to control prosthetic limbs. And a company in Dallas called Nerves Incorporated that's working with the University of Minnesota and UT Southwestern; they're doing nerve implants in your forearm and in your upper arm to control prosthetic limbs.
\n\nAnd with those, you get much more fine control, so it's not like you're just controlling different grips, like preset grips in the hand, but you're actually doing individual finger control. And then, when you touch the finger, it's actually stimulating your nerves to make it feel like it's coming from your hand that you no longer have anymore. And this is where we're heading with all of this stuff in the future.
\n\nAnd so we built The Ability Hand to work with clinically available systems now, like sockets, and muscle sensors, and vibration motors that are all outside of the body. But then also, when these future technologies come up that are more invasive that are directly implanted on your nerves as well as into your bones as well, we're really excited about those prospects coming out in the horizon.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really cool. [laughs] I mean, that would be really life-changing for a lot of people, I'm sure, to have that ability to really control your fingers and get that extra comfort as well. How do you manage quality into your process, especially when you're getting invasive and putting in nerve implants? What kind of testing and other types of things do you all do?
\n\nDR. AADEEL: With The Ability Hand itself, there was actually an FDA Class I exempt device, meaning that we didn't have to go through the formal approval process that you typically do. And that was primarily because it's attached to your residual limb as opposed to going invasive. But with going invasive, with our clinical partners they're actually doing FDA clinical trials right now. And so they've gone through a lot of those processes. We're starting to enroll some of our patients who are using The Ability Hand to get these implanted electrodes. We're kind of navigating that whole process ourselves right now too.
\n\nSo I think that was one of the reasons why we moved to San Diego, to work with and leverage a lot of the expertise from people who've done it already, from the med tech device companies that are big that have gone through those processes and can guide us through that process as well. So we're excited to be able to leverage those resources in order to streamline these clinical trial processes so that we can get these devices out there more quickly.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's very cool. I'm super excited to hear about that and to learn more about PSYONIC. Is there anything else you want to share with our audience today as a final takeaway?
\n\nDR. AADEEL: Absolutely. So in order to make all this stuff happen, we're actually in the middle of raising a round right now. Our biggest issue right now is actually that we've got more demand than we can produce, so we're working on scaling our manufacturing here in San Diego. So we're in the middle of an equity crowdfunding round.
\n\nAnd we're all about accessibility, so about making our hand accessible to as many people as possible. So we were like, why don't we make the company accessible as well? And one of the most beautiful things about doing this as an equity crowdfunding round is our patients actually have invested in the company as well. And so it's like, we're making these devices for them, and then they get to be a part of it as well. And it's just this beautiful synergy that I couldn't have asked for anything more out of a crowdfunding campaign.
\n\nAnd so we've raised over 750k already on StartEngine. And you can find out more and invest for as little as $250 at psyonic.io, so that's psyonic.io/invest. And the other thing I was going to mention, especially Victoria since you're in San Diego as well, is that I happily give tours to anyone who is in the area. So if anyone wants to see how we build all these bionic hands and just a cool robotics startup in general, we'd be happy to have you come visit us.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's very cool. I'll have to connect with you later and schedule a tour myself. [laughs] That's wonderful. I'm excited to hear all the things you're working on and hope to see you more in the San Diego community coming up. And we'll share links to the funding page and other information about PSYONIC in our show notes.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Mastodon at Victoria Guido.
\n\nAnd this podcast is brought to by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Aadeel Akhtar.
Sponsored By:
Irfan Alam is the CEO of Frontrow Health, a startup with a mission to finally put Americans in the front row of their own healthcare.
\n\nWill and Victoria talk to Irfan about his background in business strategy and development for healthcare companies, how he went about searching for and building the perfect team, and how he started the culture of Frontrow Health on a level where there is balance and people want to join because it has a good culture.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Irfan Alam, Founder, and CEO at Frontrow Health, a startup with a mission to finally put Americans in the front row of their own healthcare.
\n\nWILL: Hi, Irfan. Thank you for joining us.
\n\nIRFAN: Thanks for having me; super excited to chat more about the whole process of building and launching Frontrow Health.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, we're super excited. Of course, I know you as a client of thoughtbot, and I'm excited to hear your story. And you have this background in business strategy and development for healthcare companies. But what led you to decide to start your own platform?
\n\nIRFAN: I think it was a combination of two things; one was a lived experience being inspired by the power of entrepreneurship with my family and then working at Everlywell. And then two, it was discovering and being reminded of a critical problem that I saw in the industry that I then became excited about solving.
\n\nSo growing up, I was raised by my two parents and my grandparents. My grandfather was an entrepreneur himself and also an immigrant and kind of brought our whole legacy of my family into the U.S. from Southeast Asia. He has always motivated me to take risks and to build something great for the world, and that's what he's always wanted for me.
\n\nAnd so I joined Everlywell, a small digital health startup, back in 2019 because I was excited to get my feet wet in the world of startups. It was just within a number of months after that I had joined where COVID-19 hit, and Everlywell, a home lab testing company based out of Austin, got swept up into the storm of COVID and, in a lot of ways, threw ourselves into the center of the storm when we ended up launching the first home COVID-19 test.
\n\nAnd it was that summer of 2020 when I probably had the most profound personal and professional growing experience of my life, just trying to handle this chaos and confusing world that we were all living in. But then also simultaneously watching how a small team could make an outsized impact in the world during a time of need. And that really led me to want to pursue my own startup ambitions.
\n\nSo I started thinking about business school. The founder and CEO, Julia Cheek, went to Harvard Business School in 2009 and publicly talks about it being sort of this magical moment in time where people were flooding in from the downturn economy, excited about solving new problems. And her class of graduates is sort of like a famous class of entrepreneurs. And so I brought it up with her, and she was super supportive. And I went through the process and got super lucky. And I decided to take the summer off in 2021 before coming to HBS and moving back to Boston.
\n\nAnd it was during that summer where I started thinking about the problems that companies like Everlywell and direct-to-consumer health brands faced that I realized was not just at the fault of their own but because the industry didn't have the right digital tools necessary to succeed. That's sort of the origin of how Frontrow Health came to be.
\n\nWILL: Sweet. So perfect segue; tell us more about the mission of Frontrow Health.
\n\nIRFAN: We're on a mission to put people on the front row of their own healthcare. And we really just want to reimagine how people shop for their healthcare online. What I learned at Everlywell was that this boom of consumer health which means people who are taking charge of their own health and are able to do that directly through these digital health companies was a form of healthcare that could create a tremendous amount of value in people's lives. But that was only really accessible to a small niche audience. And it didn't feel like it was equitably accessible to the average American.
\n\nAnd so some of those barriers that I realized as a part of my work at Everlywell for why the average American wasn't engaging with consumer health, this otherwise really powerful form of taking charge of your own health and wellness, was because of these three blockers that we're trying to address at Frontrow Health. The first being that people just don't know about what kinds of solutions are out there that can address their health issues beyond just taking a prescription medication given to them by the doctor that they visit in their office.
\n\nThe second is if they do know, they don't know what to trust. They don't know whether this spam of healthcare companies that they're getting advertisements on from Instagram are the right companies, whether these products are safe and effective for them uniquely because of their unique health issues their unique health history.
\n\nAnd then finally, even if they are aware and they do trust the health product, at the end of the day, a lot of Americans just can't afford to spend money out of pocket to pay for these consumer health and wellness products like consumables, devices, virtual services, et cetera. And so Frontrow Health is all about trying to break down those barriers in order to unleash consumer health to the average American.
\n\nVICTORIA: And were you always drawn to that healthcare industry from the beginning?
\n\nIRFAN: Yeah. So I grew up very privileged with two parents who are physicians. My mom is a psychiatrist, which is quite rare for women of color, specifically of South Asian descent, to be a psychiatrist. And then my dad was a gastroenterologist. They were always the gut-brain connection between the two. And so, growing up, I somewhat classically assumed that I was going to be a doctor. Got to college, thought that that was going to be my path. I realized quickly that there is a whole world outside of being a physician yourself that I could still be a part of in healthcare without being a doctor.
\n\nMy parents actually, interestingly enough, began to encourage me to think beyond just being a doctor, with them both feeling like the amount of scale of impact that they could have would never be the same as someone who could do that through business or policy or these other facets that are important to healthcare. And so I got to undergrad, started studying policy economics. I started doing internships at different healthcare consulting firms.
\n\nAnd I ended up first working at a life science business strategy consulting firm out of college. And it was great, but it ended up not being what I was most excited about because it was really focused on the biopharmaceutical and medical device industry. And what I realized when I got there was I just had this growing passion for digital health and technology, as I saw that it was kind of the future of how people were going to be able to take more preventative charge and improve their health over the long term.
\n\nAnd so I was working on this digital health white paper with a partner at the consulting firm I was at, and I was doing research and stumbled upon Everlywell. And then, they had a job opening for this business strategy role. So that's why I ended up taking the leap into the startup world, into the digital health world, and just loved it and kept wanting to continue to grow my experience in that space.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing. Your parents encouraged you to step outside of just the doctor-physician role and to think higher. So, as a founder, you know, it was amazing that your parents, as physicians, encouraged you to think higher and think into different roles. And as a founder, what were some of the decisions you had to make? What were some of the easier ones? What were some that were surprisingly difficult?
\n\nIRFAN: I think the biggest misnomer of the founding experience is that founding a company is extremely linear. Sometimes you go one direction forward, and then you take a direction diagonally back, and then you go horizontally straight, and that was my story. When I do my pitch about Frontrow, I try to make it feel a little bit more linear, so it makes sense to people.
\n\nBut the truth is the quote, unquote, "hardest decisions" were about every time there was a direction changing point, and it required a decision about is this the right idea? Do I want to spend more time on another idea? Have I validated this enough? Should I validate it differently? Should I pursue this one further? What does that pursuit look like? Who should I pursue it with? Is it time to raise money? Do I drop out of school? Like, those direction-changing points that then create this much more complex map of the founder experience versus a linear line up into the right is, I think, the more challenging parts of being a founder.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense that you have to really go through this iterative process to figure out where are you spending your time, is it in the right place? A lot of hard decisions to make. And while you were founding Frontrow Health, you were also a part-time investor at Rock Health and reviewing other healthcare startup proposals. So did you see any trends or patterns that influenced how you progressed as a founder?
\n\nIRFAN: Totally, yeah. That was actually instrumental to Frontrow Health. So the story is when I took the summer off before business school, I started thinking about different problems in the world, healthcare, and non-healthcare. Or actually, to be clear, I started thinking about lots of different solutions and ideas and then quickly began to realize that that was not the right approach to founding. I think the first step is to think about problems, problems you've seen, problems you've experienced, that you know others are experiencing, and then work to a solution from there by starting with what the user is experiencing.
\n\nAnd so as I was going through that hacky journey over the summer, just randomly, a number of small healthcare companies started reaching out to me asking me for my opinion and advice about how or whether they should go direct-to-consumer, whether they should sell healthcare products direct to the consumer, which is what I did a lot of work on at Everlywell as one of the pioneering consumer health brands in the space.
\n\nAnd I started to notice this trend of me telling these companies, "No, don't do it. It's really expensive. It's really ineffective and unprofitable to acquire customers through traditional paid media avenues like Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat, Facebook, et cetera." And, unsurprisingly, you could imagine Everlywell was trying to sell a home diabetes test for people who are type 2 diabetics but were only able to target people based on their interest in yoga and running, which is not really a substitute for a severe chronic condition.
\n\nAnd as a result, thousands of people would see our ads every day that had no clinical relevance to our solution. And that was one of the deep problems of why consumer health companies weren't able to reach out to the audiences that actually really needed their solutions. And so when I got to Rock Health at the first semester in business school, doing this sort of part-time investor gig, on the first day, the partners basically told me, "Oh, we don't invest in consumer health."
\n\nAnd I was like, "Oh, whoa, okay, that's my jam. That's a bummer. That's like [laughs] the only thing that I know about." And as I started to see the data and the pipeline of companies that were looking for investments and understanding what their unit economics looked like, what their go-to-market approaches looked like, that's when I started to put the dots together that this was not just an Everlywell problem; this was an industry problem. Mark Zuckerberg didn't build Facebook so that direct-to-consumer healthcare companies can cost-effectively target clinically relevant patients online. That just happens to be what it's being used for today. And so that's when I started to realize that there had to be a quote-unquote, "better way."
\n\nWILL: You bring up social media at Frontrow Health. Have you had to combat the medical advice of social media?
\n\nIRFAN: Yeah. You mean like this concept of quote, unquote, "Instagram medicine?"
\n\nWILL: Yes. Yes.
\n\nIRFAN: It's a great question. So as the story continues, I began to think about what is the right solution to this problem? And instead of Everlywell, I started thinking about the right solution to this problem. What I realized was instead of Everlywell wasting away millions of dollars to big tech companies that wasn't going to improving the health of anybody, what if we gave that money back to the consumer in reward for sharing their health information which would allow us to target them with the right clinically relevant products?
\n\nThat was the first version of Frontrow Health. I called it Health Mart back then. And so I basically started to get people to fill out a Google Form with their health data. And then I worked with my parents to send weekly product recommendations over email based on their unique health needs; you know, I want to sleep better; I'm a diabetic, whatever it is.
\n\nAnd then, I wanted to see if I was just going to Venmo them cashback upon purchase if they were going to be any more likely to buy these products for these health brands. And at first, people were incrementally more likely to buy. It wasn't mind-blowing. And so, as I started to talk to the participants of the study, I started saying, "You know, you said that you have high cholesterol. These supplements have active ingredients that have been shown to reduce LDL levels. It's pretty cheap. I'm giving you 25-30% cashback. Why haven't you bought it?"
\n\nAnd what they started saying was, "Well, I don't know what these active ingredients are. And before I put that in my body, I want to check with my doctor first." And so that was the final aha moment that led us to Frontrow Health, which is, what if we could bring the doctor into the fold? And instead of consumers just experiencing this Instagram medicine where they're just being blasted with Instagram ads every day about different health products, and they don't know what to trust, that second barrier that I talked about earlier, what if the doctor could instead of just being a guide for what prescription medications you should be taking could also be a guide on what health and wellness products you can be using?
\n\nAnd so I added my dad to the email thread, and I said, "Okay, you can talk to an independent medical provider and ask them questions about the products that you're being recommended." And that's when people started buying because then they were able to find the trust in the products that were being curated based on their unique information.
\n\nWILL: Wow, that's really neat. So to help the audience understand your iteration today, so the first iteration was just giving products and then Venmoing them back cashback. And then the second was bringing in a provider. So what does the product look like today?
\n\nIRFAN: We went through, like you mentioned, a lot of different iterations of this. There were even prior iterations to this that are more representative of that founder map versus the linear line that you've sort of just heard now. But in terms of where the story went from there, I began to think about how to validate this idea further. I came into winter break; the pilot went well. People were buying a lot of products.
\n\nAnd so, I decided to sunset my part-time investor gig at Rock Health and decided to reallocate all my time to working on Health Mart at the time. What I started to think about was, well, what if the doctor was able to earn compensation for writing private product reviews regardless of their opinions? So that was the next iteration was like, how do you incentivize a doctor to take time out of their day to do this new behavior that doesn't exist?
\n\nDoctors are not writing personalized private product reviews for their patients on supplements, home medical devices, apps, et cetera. And how could we get them to? And so, I started thinking about what are the different motivations of providers? Their time is extremely valuable. How do you incentivize them correctly without incentivizing them to give good or bad feedback but just honest feedback?
\n\nThen I started basically having my dad recommend Health Mart to his patients every day to see would patients sign up. Like, if doctors were intrinsically motivated to get their patients on the platform so that they can help them get away from Instagram medicine and at the same time earn compensation for themselves as an additional revenue stream, could independent medical providers see that as valuable and a good use of their time?
\n\nAnd the first piece of that about whether patients would sign up worked unsurprisingly very well. If your doctor is telling you to sign up for something, or it's free to sign up, and you only pay when you want to buy a product, and they're going to, for the user, be able to ask for feedback from the provider, they were pretty excited.
\n\nBut then the question of would doctors sign up, I started...basically, I had my mom. The next iteration was I had my mom make a couple of posts in these doctor Facebook groups. I put together a little website, a very ugly version of what we have today for a provider marketing page. And I had my mom drop the link in a couple of different doctor Facebook groups. And we actually started getting signups from the doctors.
\n\nAnd then, as we started talking to them, what we realized was two things; it was like a win-win. The doctor was happy because they were getting compensated, and they were happy because their patients' health was improving. So when Obama was in administration, he passed a really fundamentally important piece of legislation called The Sunshine Act. And that basically ended this quote, unquote, "golden era" of pharma companies giving kickbacks to doctors.
\n\nWILL: Oh wow.
\n\nIRFAN: And so since then, doctors have been very eager to find additional revenue streams that they can leverage their decades of medical expertise to earn. They got medical bills to pay off loans to pay off. They spent 20 years training for this job. And so they were excited about an additional revenue stream that leveraged their medical expertise and also helped their patient. Because they also started saying things like, "Well, my patients are always asking me like, 'What about these supplements I saw for these ads online?'" And the doctor says, "I don't know what these supplements are.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nIRFAN: I don't have the data in front of me. I don't know what the ingredients are. I don't know whether to trust the company or not." And we are building a platform where it's all streamlined for the provider. The provider is able to review the clinical information. They're able to review their patient information. They're able to really quickly write reviews. We give them templates. We give them suggestions. They're able to reapply recent reviews. And so that was sort of the next iteration. And that's actually when thoughtbot came in and when I started thinking about raising a small round, getting a dev shop to help me build the MVP. And that's kind of how the semester ended up closing out.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that your mom and dad were so supportive, it sounds like, of you going full-time on this startup. Was that scary for them for you to do that?
\n\nIRFAN: It's so funny, yeah. So what happened next was I decided I wanted to start raising a small round because I had the conviction that there was a problem to be solved for consumers, for doctors, and for health brands. And we could build this one unique multi-sided marketplace to solve them. I ended up going back to Austin for spring break partially to visit my family and partially because I wanted to pitch to Julia, the founder of Everlywell, who I thought of all people on planet Earth would understand what I'm trying to do. She would get it because I am building a SaaS solution for health brands like Everlywell and her consumers.
\n\nAnd she got it. She was jazzed. And so, she decided to angel invest. And that basically spurred a ton of interest from venture capital firms. I wasn't originally thinking about raising an institutional round but was very lucky with the timing. Just before the market crashed, it was a very hot market. And so we ended up closing a real seed round with the question on hand about whether I should pursue this full-time because the capital that I raised necessitated building a real team. Or should I just take a smaller amount of money and go back to school?
\n\nAnd it's unsurprisingly, every different person in my life had some opinion about this, from my wife to my investors, to my parents, to my friends. What I wanted was somewhere nestled in between all of those things. And when I caught my dad up on the phone a couple of weeks after spring break and told him of all the crazy stuff that had been happening...and it was just happening and unfolding so quickly. I was like, "Okay, dad. I'm laying out all my cards here. You have full liberty to be mad at me for wanting to drop out of Harvard."
\n\nAnd his first reaction was, "Well, you know, I don't really see the downside. Like, you could either start a company that you're really passionate about and it could go well, or you could be the worst entrepreneur of all time and then just come back to school during this leave of absence," or deferral thing that I'm on right now. And that was the first time where I was like, "Oh, you know what? I think you're right." And the truth was I decided to just continue to let the summer go by to think about the decision a little bit more before I formally submitted my deferral to HBS.
\n\nAs the markets turned, we realized that we needed to hire internally to save on cash burn a little bit. And so once I had built this really awesome team that I'm so lucky to be surrounded by, that's when I was, you know, without a doubt in my mind, I was like, I got to keep pushing for this because now we have this awesome team that just wants to keep driving this mission forward. And we were getting traction. We were talking to hundreds of doctors over the summer. We were talking to health brands. And it really felt like we were onto something.
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\n\nWILL: I hear you have an amazing product team. How did you go about searching and building the right team?
\n\nIRFAN: We got lucky in a second way because of timing, where the first time was I raised the capital when the market was really hot in April. And then, I started hiring when the market crashed. And, unfortunately, as you all know, lots of people have been getting laid off since the summer, particularly in the tech world: designers, engineers, marketers, et cetera.
\n\nNow, all of a sudden, there was a flood of really great talent on the market. And that was also what spurred me to start thinking about hiring sooner than I was originally planning to. My forecast was to hire people end of this year, maybe in a month or so from now, to start that process. Versus, we ended up making our first full-time hire, I guess in July, maybe.
\n\nAnd it was...the best way I can describe it is like dominoes falling where once you get the first one in, then it builds trust and credibility, and then the next one comes, and the next one. And so the first couple of folks were these two brilliant engineers who were close friends of my interim CTO and classmate, Amit, who was helping us build the foundation of the product this past summer.
\n\nHe did an amazing job of basically recruiting one engineer, Anand, our first engineer who started his career as a PM at Microsoft and then turned into a software engineer at a number of different startups and studied comp sci and electrical engineering at Berkeley with Amit, where they first met.
\n\nAnd then the second engineer was Nupur, who was a colleague of Amit, a machine learning engineer at Google Brain and the moonshot X team at Alphabet. And they were both, I think, just kind of tired of big tech and were ready to bet on the upside and their career. And the timing was right based on where the market conditions were. And so they decided to take the leap of faith with me.
\n\nAnd then after that, or around that time, kind of in the middle, we were able to bring on our head of design, Jakub, who is like a unicorn human with so much rich experience in the product world. So he was a computer animator and then studied visual arts, but then started his career very early in the coupon website space as a product designer actually. And then led product design as a founding designer at a number of different startups. And then, most recently, was a senior product designer at Roman, which is a really large digital health company similar to Everlywell.
\n\nAnd Ro, Everlywell, Truepill, all these companies had mass layoffs in the middle of the summer. And so when Jakub took my call...He talks about a really funny story where he wasn't taking me seriously at all. Convincing these excellent, talented people to come join my dinky startup at the time was not easy.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nIRFAN: And so he just kind of took it because there was a mutual connection. Or he just said, okay, I'll explore what's going on given how crazy the market is. But once he heard what we were building, he was immediately on board, actually, because Roman has also struggled with the same customer acquisition problems. And it's a huge reason why a lot of these digital health companies continue to remain unprofitable. And so he understood the problem deeper than I think anyone because of the experience he had in the same space that we were in. And he realized that there was an opportunity to build a solution to solve these problems.
\n\nSo that was the first core team. And then from there, it kind of just snowballed, you know, there was more and more interest from other folks to join. And we brought in a great junior product designer. We just hired our platform engineer. But that was the original core team from the summer who took the big leap of faith and joined because of the market conditions, the belief in the space.
\n\nAnd we actually just met up in San Diego for the first time for a company retreat in person. And it was just fun meeting everyone in person for the first time because now I get to know them as real people and see all their personalities. And we're really psyched about coming to product launch pretty soon here.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's wonderful and, you know, that compelling vision and having those first initial people join and brought in everyone else. You know, I think part of the reason people are hesitant to join startups is because there is that reputation for kind of unhealthy work-life balance. So you're a healthcare startup. So how do you start the culture of your company on a level where there is that balance and people want to join because it has a good culture?
\n\nIRFAN: It's a super interesting question that we spent a lot of time actually talking about in San Diego as a team. And it was brought up because I have a somewhat unhealthy relationship with work. And I am constantly working. And this is the most important thing right now in our life. And so Nupur, one of our engineers, had a phenomenal analogy that I think is the right framework to think about this from a company culture perspective.
\n\nBecause I've always tried to share with a team, like, I don't expect them to work nearly as much as I do, and I don't want them to either. I think the analogy was such a fun, helpful way to think about why that was the case. And so she kind of said, "I'm like the aunt, and you're like the single father. And the aunt doesn't have to take care of the baby at nighttime and on the weekends, but the single father does. And it's not that the aunt doesn't care about the company, but there's some space and boundary in that relationship."
\n\nAnd so that's actually our motto right now is like, yeah, we all care about this product and this company, quote, unquote, "baby," but there's always biologically intrinsically going to be a deeper relationship between me and this company, for good reason. And so that is going to require me to work harder and longer than anyone else, probably for a long, long time. And I had to be ready for that. My wife and I had to be ready for that.
\n\nAnd so far, honestly, I've never been busier. But I've also never been...or, like, I've never had this ratio between busyness and stress where I'm really busy but not that stressed. And I think it's just because I love what I'm doing every day. I haven't ever found this happy balance where I actually just enjoy what I do. And I'm constantly excited about continuing to build the right product to help people.
\n\nWILL: Wow.
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm actually babysitting my niece and nephew this weekend. [laughter] My brother would say, "You need to be here on the weekends with them."
\n\nIRFAN: Maybe not the perfect analogy. But--
\n\nVICTORIA: I like it, though. It makes sense. [laughs]
\n\nWILL: There's a difference. [laughter]
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh yeah. Will knows; he's a dad.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. I know company values can be so...we have them. Do we follow them? Or sometimes they get put on the shelf. I was reading your company values, "People first, bias for curiosity, and dream big." For Frontrow Health, how does that play a role in the day-to-day?
\n\nIRFAN: When Jakub, Nupur, and Anand had all joined like that first core team, we actually spent time writing all this out and creating a document that discussed what the company culture and values were. And we looked at different examples of other companies. Amazon famously has, I don't know, these 16 principles. And we kind of said, okay, we want to pick just a couple because you can't always focus on everything at the same time. And we need some sort of guiding North Star if you will.
\n\nAnd so these were the three that we came up with, the ones that you mentioned. So we are people first; we have a bias for curiosity, and we want to dream big. So people first to us means that our mission like we talked about, we want to increase access to healthcare at home for the average American. And so every decision that we make at the company has to pass that litmus test first.
\n\nWhatever feature we're building, whatever business model approach we're taking, whatever go–to–market approach that we're taking, is what we're doing going to increase access to healthcare at home for the average American? Yes? Then we continue onwards, and then we continue deliberating and deciding; if not, we pass. And so that is how we determine whether we can continue to be people first because that is our mission.
\n\nAnd as we're going down that thread, we want to push ourselves to constantly be bettering and asking questions about how we can be better. That is the bias for curiosity. That was one of Everlywell's company values and was the one that I resonated with the most. I find tremendous value in asking questions. Nupur on our team, one of our engineers, is a great example of bias for curiosity. She's constantly challenging and asking the right questions. And that helps us be better at being people first and increasing access even more than we can because we're never settled with what exists today.
\n\nAnd then dreaming big is about finding answers to those questions and not settling for the tried and true paths. Some of the greatest companies that have ever been created are the ones that invent new behaviors that have never existed before. So Airbnb, now all of a sudden, people are comfortable with strangers living in their homes. Uber, now all of a sudden, people are comfortable driving in a stranger's car.
\n\nAt Frontrow Health, we're dreaming big in a world where doctors are not currently engaging with their patients related to their home health and wellness journeys when they leave the four walls of their clinic. How can we change the behavior where doctors are more involved in that relationship in a way that doesn't exist today? And so that's a part of what we're trying to do, and dreaming big to go and increase access, like I said, is our ultimate North Star.
\n\nWILL: Wow. You said something I think that was...it seemed very small, but I think it said a lot about you and your company. You said that you encourage your engineer to ask the hard questions. I think so many times, people hate the hard questions. They are fearful of that. But I think in your field, you have to be able to ask the hard questions. So that's amazing that you brought that up, and you're talking about that.
\n\nIRFAN: Yeah. And it doesn't...it's not just me, for sure. I think my team is...and it's kind of you to point that out. But yeah, my team does such a great job of holding true to these values on their own and pushing me to remind myself of these values. Nupur actually is Slacking me right now about some thought that she had coming out of a meeting.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nIRFAN: And two points about different alternative ways to think about things. And yeah, I want to keep encouraging them and our future employees to do that. Because you look at the worst examples in healthcare, in particular, tech as well, the worst examples of companies are the ones where the employees were not able to or encouraged to ask questions; that's when things go south.
\n\nSo Theranos is the simplest example of this where they were hiding everything from their employees, and people had questions constantly but never asked them. And that's when more and more bad decisions were made. So I don't want that to be the case for Frontrow. And so it has to start with, yeah, this bias for curiosity.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. And I wonder if that's part of your success, being someone who doesn't have a background in engineering or programming specifically and enabling your technical team to build what they need to get done.
\n\nIRFAN: Yeah. I can't honestly explain to you guys how much I've learned over the past six months from my product and dev team. And you're right that I think one could see my lack of programming as a weakness which, in a lot of ways, it is. But what has also manifested as a result of that is I have naturally had to lean more heavily on my dev team to be owners of decisions that affect our business and to challenge them to think about are we being people first if we build and design solutions in the way that you're describing?
\n\nI don't know the right approach about how to build this, or on what tech stack, or in what capacity we have the ability to. You guys have to take ownership of thinking through those, solving those problems, and coming up with the right decision. And as a founder, that's scary to do. You're giving up control of the decisions to others. But at the same time, by giving them that autonomy and encouraging them to take ownership of it, they feel I think more and more invested in what we're building. And that hopefully builds the habit of what you guys were talking about around wanting to constantly seek better solutions, challenge because they know that they have a voice in how things turn out.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. Maybe you've discovered this naturally or through your education and background. But studies that are done around high-performing technology organizations find that no matter what processes or tools you have if you have that high-trust environment, you'll have better security, more software development throughput, all of those things. So I think you're doing it right by setting your values and creating that kind of high-trust environment.
\n\nIRFAN: Super interesting. I didn't know that, actually, but it makes sense. [laughs] We've been seeing it. I actually want to give some credit to thoughtbot because thoughtbot helped us set a lot of this important engineering culture at the very beginning, where I had to rely on my thoughtbot engineers, folks like Jesse, Dave, and others, to help me make the best decision for my company.
\n\nThey taught me a lot of these things at the earliest stage back in May around, okay, like, you guys are a consulting firm at the end of the day, technically speaking. But they pushed me to think of it more as how do we co-make these decisions? Like, how do we leverage each other's strengths to make the right decisions?
\n\nThe thoughtbot design team and engineering team...one of our designers through thoughtbot, Steven, is so funny because...and I gave him this feedback, which is great feedback, which is like, he constantly asked questions. And if he hears this, he'll laugh because he's constantly pushing, like, "Why are we designing it this way? Why do you think it should be this way? Where is the evidence that the user wants it to be this way?" And it was a great setup for when our internal team came on because I just kept up that momentum. And then they just kind of took with it and ran.
\n\nVICTORIA: How did you find us, or how did you find the right technical partners in the very beginning to help you build your vision?
\n\nIRFAN: It was not an immediately simple process. But when I found thoughtbot, it kind of unraveled quite quickly in a good way. So I was working with Amit like I mentioned, who'll become our interim CTO, one of my classmates at HBS. And he helped me put together an RFP where we outlined all the different feature requirements, all the different intentions for our solution or timeline, our costs, et cetera.
\n\nAnd I just did a lot of Google research about different dev shops, and I started talking to dev shops in lots of different locations, U.S.-based, European-based, Asian-based, Latin America-based, started comparing prices. We had questions where we wanted to see their creativity in developing solutions. We started accepting proposals, reviewing those proposals.
\n\nI somehow stumbled upon thoughtbot's website during this process. And I noticed that Everlywell was one of thoughtbot's clients, Everlywell, the home lab testing company that I used to work at before business school. I was like, oh wow. I knew that our engineering team and our engineering leadership had a really high bar for when we worked with outsourced talent. And so I thought that that spoke volumes about choosing thoughtbot.
\n\nAnd so then we actually ended up asking Everlywell CTO an unprompted question of like, "If you had to pick any dev house that you've known or have worked with, et cetera, that was supposed to build you custom software from scratch, who would you pick?" And he said, "thoughtbot." It wasn't even like a question of, what do you think of thoughtbot? Or, what was your experience? It was just like, imagine you had to pick, and, unprompted, he said thoughtbot. So that was actually what did it for me.
\n\nAnd I kind of threw aside all the other logistical hoopla that we were going through and said, you know, I got to trust the people who I know and trust, and having verbal confirmation of that was huge. And then, of course, I enjoyed speaking with Dawn at thoughtbot, who was helping broker the whole discussion, and it felt easy. And their proposal was also quite strong. And then, as I dug deeper into thoughtbot, it became clear that no pun intended, you guys are kind of the thought leaders in a lot of ways.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nIRFAN: It's funny, our head of design, Jakub, when I mentioned that he's a unicorn, it's because he also taught himself coding and programming.
\n\nWILL: Wow.
\n\nIRFAN: So he's like a pseudo designer and programmer. He can do a little bit of everything. And he actually...when I told him that we were working with thoughtbot, he was like, "Oh, I learned Ruby on Rails back in the day from thoughtbot with whatever content they had published back in time." And then, as I spoke to other dev shops about going with thoughtbot, they started saying things like, "Oh, thoughtbot, yeah, they're kind of the OGs of Rails and a lot of the core tech stack that's been around for a while." And so it was just continued validation of the right approach.
\n\nAnd then, we started working with the team in May, right after my second semester of business school ended. And it's been an incredible process. We have never missed any deadlines, and we're actually two months ahead of schedule. And it's not just because they're good at what they do, but it's also because of the culture and the teaching me about the best way to run retros, and sprint planning, and things to think about in terms of trust in your engineer and building that trust, and all the soft, intangible things. It wasn't just like thoughtbot came in and built code. It was thoughtbot came in and helped establish the company in a lot of ways.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great to hear. Thank you for saying all those wonderful things. I'm sure me and Will agree 100%.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nIRFAN: Yeah, it's been an awesome process. And yeah, we've even ended up basically bringing on as a full-time independent contractor someone who worked through thoughtbot because we love them so much. And they were just so excellent at what they did. And just, yeah, I think that probably speaks the most volumes about the kind of organization that you guys are running.
\n\nWILL: I appreciate you saying that. That means a lot. It really does. I want to take a second to kind of circle back and kind of talk about how you find the providers because I think, for me, one of the most influential classes I had in college was my professor said, "Hey, meet me at the pharmacy." So we went to the pharmacy, and he started asking us questions. And he was like, "What medicine do you think would be the most impactful?" And we would try to pull it out. He taught us how to compare the active ingredients.
\n\nIRFAN: Wow.
\n\nWILL: Like how some stuff is just marketing, and it's not really helpful and things like that. But I also saw the side, you know, the amazing providers like your parents. You talking about your parents just reminded me of my parents and how supportive they are. So it's just amazing. You had your parents as providers. How did you find providers beyond that that you have to extend that trust to them?
\n\nIRFAN: I guess two reactions. The first is how do we talk to doctors to get feedback on our solution as we're building it? And then how do we get doctors to sign up and use our solution with their patients? Those are the two chronological steps. So for the first one, we very liberally use a platform called usertesting.com, which we used at Everlywell, where I first got introduced to it. And it's amazing.
\n\nWe have the unlimited package, and we run tons of user tests a day. So, over the summer, we were literally having unmoderated tests from medical professionals, about ten healthcare professionals a day who were coming to our website, coming to our product, giving their feedback through these unmoderated tests. We were quantitatively assessing qualitatively assessing their responses to specific questions that we were asking them.
\n\nLike, was it easy enough to write a review? What were you expecting to see? How did that compare to what you did see? Like, all the traditional kind of user research. They really helped us build the product, and then we were able to follow up with them, get on the phone with them, ask them more questions about their experience, about their current experience in their clinic, whether patients are asking them about these things, about their interest in certain supplements, et cetera.
\n\nAnd then we actually had one medical provider, a family practice nurse practitioner from Vermont, who was so excited about what we were building. She was sending me all this other information and content about how to reach out to other doctors and stuff. And then, at the end of the summer, when we were just about ready to start getting our beta off the ground, we were going to choose one provider to work with who was going to recommend it to their patients, and they were going to slowly kind of monitor the experience.
\n\nThis nurse practitioner actually just happened to reach back out, and we happened to connect again. And she's like, "Okay, what are you guys up to? Are you guys done with your product? I really want to use it." And I was like, "Oh, wow. Well, it's great timing because we're looking for our first medical provider."
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nIRFAN: And so that's where we ended up launching beta with, which was awesome. And since then, I've been spending a lot of time thinking about the go-to-market approach beyond just one medical provider. How do we scale to thousands of medical providers? And luckily, selling to doctors is a solved problem, like; the biopharma and medical device industry has been doing this for decades.
\n\nAnd so it was really just a part of me brushing up on a lot of the work that I was doing in life science consulting about helping Big Pharma and whatnot go to market and just stealing a lot of notes out of their playbook. So, for example, there are companies that allow you to run ads online that just target physicians. So instead of my dad seeing a Lululemon ad while he's reading The Wall Street Journal, he'll see an ad for Frontrow Health.
\n\nAnd so we actually run marketing tests over the summer, towards the end of the summer, with a newer provider landing page that we had built to see what percent were going to click on the ads, what percent were going to come to the website and sign up, and then how much cost would that be per acquisition of a provider. And the results were actually much better than we thought. It was half as expensive as what we originally predicted, which is awesome.
\n\nWILL: Wow.
\n\nIRFAN: And that was before Jakub, our new head of design, had even touched the website. We're actually just revamping it right now because he's been going through and revamping other aspects of our product and marketing experience. And now we're at the provider part. So we're actually going to be just about a week or so away from launching the marketing tests and actually getting every day more providers on the platform.
\n\nThe product is now done, so they can start getting their patients on the platform. We just signed our first health brand. So now people are getting real product recommendations and getting ability to earn cashback. And we can be revenue generating, which is also super exciting that we're, like I said, a couple of months ahead of schedule, actually.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really exciting, and that certainly sounds like enough on your plate. But is there anything else on the horizon for Frontrow Health that you're excited about?
\n\nIRFAN: Yes. We are super excited that we're just coming out of stealth mode and launching our full product experience for consumers, medical providers, and DTC health brands. Going forward into 2023, we're really looking to try to find this quote, unquote, "product market fit." Are doctors excited about signing up and getting their patients on the platform? Are those patients excited about the products that we're selling on our marketplace? And are we delivering new lifetime customers for these health brands at a more cost-effective rate than they've ever seen before? And solving that original problem that came to me while I was at Everlywell.
\n\nAnd by doing all three of those things, hopefully, we'll begin to increase access to healthcare at home where people who are not suburban high-income folks who can afford to pay out of pocket for preventative healthcare; we can now make that more equitable by bringing down the cost through the cashback, by introducing the element of trust, by engaging with a medical provider, and by opening up people's eyes to thousands of different consumer health and wellness companies that now exist in the world that we want to be able to connect the right products to the right people with.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's so exciting. I'm really glad we got a chance to talk to you today and hear more about your story. Is there anything else that you want to add before we wrap up?
\n\nIRFAN: This has been super fun being able to even just reflect and think about our whole story. For anyone else listening who's interested or excited about entrepreneurship, there's a really good book that I read last summer as I started thinking about entrepreneurship for the first time called "The Hard Thing About Hard Things" written by Ben Horowitz, who co-founded the VC fund, Andreessen Horowitz. He was an entrepreneur himself.
\n\nAnd it's one of my favorite books because, as the title [laughs] explains, it just talks about the difficulty of the experience and the journey that's still ahead of me. But I think the overall takeaway of the book and my experience over the past year is that it's just the single greatest learning experience of my life.
\n\nAnd that's actually really all I'm trying to optimize for personally is I want to keep growing and learning, and learning about the space, learning about myself, learning about how to work on a team, how to lead a team, how to grow a team. And if you're at all interested in any of those things, keep trying to think about all the right problems that are being experienced in the world. And we still live in a world wrought with problems and don't have nearly enough founders trying to go and solve all of them.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's a really great perspective, I think, to bring to it about your own personal growth. And that's what it's really all about. [laughs] And hopefully, we're able to solve some big challenging problems along the way.
\n\nIRFAN: Hope so.
\n\nWILL: You can subscribe to this show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm.
\n\nVICTORIA: If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm.
\n\nWILL: You can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nVICTORIA: And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nWILL: Thanks for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Irfan Alam.
Sponsored By:
Kasha Stewart is the Director of Growth Engagement at Adobe Express.
\n\nVictoria talks to Kasha about finding advocates that encourage her to chase problems, getting more women into product development and why it's essential to bring different perspectives into this area, and ways to bring connection between the end users and customers, engineering teams, and the rest of the organization to the business.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido and with us today is Kasha Stewart, Director of Growth Engagement at Adobe Express. Kasha, thank you for joining us.
\n\nKASHA: Well, thank you for having me.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, I thought I'd start off by asking you to tell me a little bit more about your background and how you found your way to product from starting out in film and video production.
\n\nKASHA: I originally started...I have a fine arts background and did a lot of digital story narrative, post-production. Back in the day (I'm going to date myself.), you had to do...it was a very manual process of chroma keying and removing backgrounds, or refining someone's skin, or some type of background. That was where I kind of...it was my bread and butter. I really loved it. It was creative.
\n\nThen in 2008, 2009, the housing market crashed, and the recession happened. And I thought, you know, I'm not a homeowner. What does it have to do with me? I'm taking these freelance jobs. I had just finished my grad program. And then all the jobs kind of disappeared. And I was thinking; here I was; I had gone to grad school. I had a really specific skill set. And then everything just poofed overnight, disappeared. And I thought, okay, well, what's more stable? Like, what could I do to secure a little bit more stability in my job, career?
\n\nSo I started applying for jobs in all these very different tech, like, they wanted people to be what we used to call a preditor, like, a producer and editor, someone that knew how to do this but also knew how to like FTP massive asset files and also knew how to flag something for when things were going wrong. And so I thought, okay, well, let me just apply for one of these. I have some of the skills. I tick the box on some of the requirements.
\n\nAnd there was a job...it was actually on Craigslist. I actually didn't even know if it was a real job or if it was a scam situation, but I applied. It had a very unusual title; I think it was content distribution editor. And I thought, okay, well, this is interesting. And it was for abc.com. And this is about 2010. I applied. They called me. I thought, okay, why is ABC on Craigslist? But never mind, it was a legitimate job.
\n\nAnd I got into what we call content distribution, so understanding content management systems. And I would be the last person that would actually process the content that would then be delivered to Hulu platforms, abc.com, many different affiliates. There were also Verizon mobile deals at this time, where the cell phone carriers had their own television networks that they tried to stand up.
\n\nIn that process, I started to really learn about licensing, how content is distributed, meta-tagging, and then also the architecture of a CMS. And I just for the life of me couldn't understand why this was built this way. It was a very cumbersome tool. And like clockwork, around 11:00 p.m. at night, it would crash. And if you hadn't saved your metadata on a notepad or in a spreadsheet, you're basically starting over from scratch.
\n\nAnd I remember asking all these questions, and they were like, "Well, it's proprietary software, and it was built in Seattle." And I was like, "Yeah, but did they ever talk to the, you know..." I didn't know the terminology like end user at the time. But they never talked to any of us that were part of this small team that had this really pivotal role of publishing the content.
\n\nAnd I remember asking all these questions. I had a supervisor at the time. And he jokingly said, "Well, you should go into product management since you love to ask questions." I didn't even know what product management was. I was like, well, I'm on a producer's track; that's my goal. I have this film and narrative background. And a role came up internally, and it was for a product specialist. I would say I needed a little bit of convincing to apply.
\n\nI had some advocates in HR that saw this role and thought I would be perfect for it. And I was like, I don't know, it has all this data analytics. And what does this have to do with people and storytelling? And they were like, "We think you should apply for it." And I made the transition, which is rare sometimes in corporate and internal transitions. But I did make the transition, and I became a product specialist.
\n\nAnd I kind of dived deep in into understanding consumer products from a front-end experience. So before, it was more from a distribution and back end. And now it was really focusing on the UX flow, the UI. What are the targets? And how do we position the content? And then, what are our consumers saying about the content? So I did open up a whole new world for me.
\n\nI went ahead, and I made plenty of mistakes. There were times that I was like, I don't know if I'm for this if this is right for me. And people definitely weren't shy then. They would tell me, "You don't look like a product manager." Or "You don't have that background of CS or data and analytics person." And I totally didn't, and I never sold myself as a false representation. But what I did have was I had this really strong inclination of really understanding from the consumer perspective.
\n\nI always took it back to even in my own circle. And I think I'm an early adopter. I love technology. But I also have friends that are still using Yahoo or Hotmail. And I'd be like, "Oh no, you got to try Gmail, or what about Gchat? This thing came out. You have to check it out." And I would think...back when I was building out these products, and this was, to level set, this is around the time of Web 2.0. I would think, oh, well, how would my friend in New York use this? Or how would my mom find her content? Or, how would my brother...
\n\nAnd I think sometimes we get very seduced when you're building something, especially as a product manager, that everything is from your lens and from your perspective. And the data and then also the feedback was telling us that we weren't really hitting it where consumers were. They weren't able to find the content as easily as we hoped.
\n\nAnd from there, I jumped into kind of entertainment streaming platforms, building out architecture, CMS, and then eventually transitioning into growth-led roles and then leadership roles later in my career. And so I've had the pleasure of working for startups like Beachbody, which was a fitness company big in the fitness space but smaller on the digital perspective, all the way to going back to Disney leading a team at Movies Anywhere. And now, I'm leading a growth team at Adobe.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow, thank you so much. That's so interesting. And we have a couple of different tracks we could get into here. One thing I want to note that I thought was interesting is when you got into your new role, what really kind of presented itself to you is that you identified a problem in the UX. Like, you kind of lateral moved, and then you found this problem, then you had advocates who pushed you to go in that direction. And so, if you have advice for people who are looking to make that transition, how do you find those advocates that encourage you to chase the problems that you find?
\n\nKASHA: Oh, that's a great question. People ask me this frequently because I think on paper, it is hard. And no one's going to find you in your cubicle...or now a lot of us are working remotely in our houses. So you have to be your best cheerleader and campaign manager. I also think, like, what is it that is on your top three lists? In product, we have nice-to-have, must-haves, and then we kind of prioritize or stack rank our work backwards from that.
\n\nSo I ask people, "What's the most important thing for your next role?" And then those are the things that you need to either lean in and start to amplify that you're already doing and how you would make a great candidate. I think internal candidates do have an advantage because they know the culture, or they may know the players, or they may see something from a different perspective, but they know what the company's challenges are.
\n\nSo I would start by first talking to your manager, and you can have a great manager or not-so-great manager, but start there. Show them that, you know, I'm on this track plan, but I really want to be here. Are there things that I can do in my current role that would support that transition? Are there people that you can recommend? And sometimes, you can get traction with your manager, but if you can't, then start to search within your network.
\n\nAnd if there's a product manager who's maybe in your org or actually would be maybe at the same leveling or someone new, start to explain to them, "Hey, I would love to set up a coffee chat, a 15-minute informational just to hear how you did it or what's your perspective?" And constantly, as you're taking notes...people usually like it when they get an opportunity to share their story or talk about themselves. And as you take notes, "Ah, I am actually looking to transition to that. Do you have any advice for me? If you had something in an open role, what would you want from that candidate?"
\n\nAnd so you're constantly planting those seeds of like, I am this candidate, here's why. And product managers and, I think, also hiring managers, we have a room full of distractions. But if something's laid out to me in concise language and it's showing results of like, oh, well, I did this on the content management side, and I think this would be transferable, and here's why. And you don't have to be long-winded. I'm not into people writing dissertations and producing 20-page decks. I don't always have the time to read that, as lovely as it sounds.
\n\nDrive in on your skills. How are they relatable or transferable? And then, what are the goals that you've been able to achieve in your current role? And what are you looking to do in your next role? And I think if you start to place yourself there...and definitely get out and start talking to people in your employee resource groups.
\n\nAnd then also, internally, there's always, at some companies, there are HR or employee resource groups that will have at least a blog post on how to transition within the company, and if they don't, search out those people. And it's not an overnight process. I've seen people where it's been a flip of the switch, and they're on a rocket. And I've seen other people where it's taken time, but they've built those rapports with people that started to get to know them outside of their current role.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. And you're also involved in many professional networks. And so, do you also get a benefit for your career growth from that?
\n\nKASHA: Yes. I feel like I never stop learning. As much as there's always something new coming out, I mean like now I'm into the chatbots and AI. And I'm like, okay, here's another thing I got to learn. Let me [laughs] add this to my to-do list. So I never want to take that for granted.
\n\nSo I feel like the communities kind of keep me, you know, it's a temperature check of what's going on, either from a challenge perspective or what type of new technologies people are integrating into their existing platforms, and how it's actually growing or benefiting them, whether it's from a machine learning and building out recommendation engines that have saved time, and then actually gets smarter. And we're building out algorithms all the way to, you know, what would it be like to have AI enhancements on an existing platform and still help drive that high-value consumer experience?
\n\nSo I don't take for granted. I also recommend people that, even if you're not in product to, join product communities so that you start to hear the language and you start to see how product managers think and how hiring and leadership think. And LinkedIn is a great resource. I belong to Women in Product, Black Product Managers. There's a slew of Tech Ladies. And I'm always kind of looking.
\n\nThere are newsletters that I love, Lenny's Newsletter. And I'm always like, oh, that's a nice one. Let me take that away for my team, or, oh, I didn't actually see that. I didn't think about that. I didn't see that playing out with NFTs in that way; hmm, really interesting. Or that TikTok is taking over search. And now I'm like, okay, how can my product that I'm growing from an engagement standpoint also have really strong representation on TikTok in a way that's authentic and users can find us, and we can continue to engage with users that way?
\n\nStart small. Find the right community that works for you. There's also Product-Led Growth, Product Alliances. There are so many of them. And I think you just start to kind of join them if you can. Some of them are free, some of them have dues. And they're really worth it. It's a value add. And you never know who's going to be posting in these Slack community groups too. You might see something where they're okay with associate level or okay with someone transitioning, or looking to help someone transition.
\n\nAnd I often mentor and direct some of my mentees in that direction so that they don't feel like they're in the passenger seat of their career and waiting for something to happen. You have to be active in this pursuit. And you also have to be a driver in it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. I felt that myself in my career. I felt like my network was my number one source of learning like you said. And also, when you're considering a career change, sometimes you don't even know what else is out there or what other types of jobs are out there. [laughs] I love what you said about that. And you also mentioned Women in Product and Black Women in Product. How can we promote those groups more [laughs] as we get more women in product? And why is it important to bring a different perspective into product?
\n\nKASHA: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think podcasts like this, you know, letting people know. And then also, when I do a post on LinkedIn, I do the hashtags of all the groups that either I belong to, or I might tag them. One thing that I do when I do start to mentor someone I say "Be active in the community, share your voice. You're going to start to get comfortable."
\n\nProduct managers have it...it's not a career for the weak, I'll say that. [laughs] And you have to have an opinion, so start small and start promoting yourself in those groups or hearing what people are saying. And even if my company is hiring or someone else, another hiring manager, and it has a post, I'll say, "Oh, did you think about posting this or adding this hashtag to this? This would definitely help give you a different type of candidate and also get more traffic."
\n\nAnd it's important to me because if I think about the world population and how we're changing, and who's showing up, you want that representation of the people that are working on it. They're going to be thinking about it from a different lens that I didn't even realize that that was an issue or oh, wow, we need to really tap into that. Or actually, we should promote this in a different way because we're going to cast a wider net, or we're going to cast a really specific net. With this demo, it can grow by 10x. Versus us thinking very generally and saying, "Well, we're happy with a 2x growth."
\n\nSo that's why it's important to me. I'm also always balancing, like, do I have enough representation of women? And do I have enough representation of men on the team too? I don't want to go one side too far and then I'm out of balance and I'm just hiring the same people that are like me. It is kind of challenging sometimes because I have to think about what does the team need? What is the team dynamics missing? And who is that person that can bring in or usher in that different perspective? And then also work cohesively with the existing team.
\n\nAnd so that's a lot of balancing act that I do in my current role and really thinking about okay, well, we're serving small businesses. We're serving social entrepreneurs. Has anybody ever done that? We can be very kind of elitist in tech, especially in product of, like, well, I do it this way. I've [laughs] got Discord, and I have all the NFTs that I've ever wanted to collect. And I can hear and listen to all that, and I can geek out.
\n\nBut then I'm like, if I go back to my friends, they'll be, "Kasha, what are you talking about? Can you speak English to us?" [laughs] And they'll be like, "Can you please calm down?" And I'm like, "Oh, but there's this thing." And then I'm like, well, maybe I need to have someone who is not like me because they're going to be thinking of that person who really just has a simple task they're trying to solve for. They have a limited amount of time, and they also have limited patience. They're not in a place where they want to learn and go on YouTube and watch a tutorial.
\n\nThey're really just, you know, "Hey, I need to get this birthday card or this invitation out for my kids. And this was a free product that I saw from SEO results, and I'm here." And that's the value in finding that person and then carrying them through a journey. Me, I'm going to be picky. I'm going to probably research. I'm going to look at reviews. I'm going to look at two other competitors that I'm going to start to line up. [laughter] And then you've lost me by that point. You want to get that person, and you want to make it a frictionless experience.
\n\nSo I do encourage, when I'm building teams, to think about the dynamics, always going for people that are, you know, want to be there and that are really dedicated to the product but also bring a different perspective than I did. And I come from an untraditional background in tech, so I think that's probably why I'm so conscious of this and how we can make these changes. And I think, historically, or the data proves that diverse teams often excel faster and better than traditional teams.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And teams that are diverse and are in an inclusive environment where they feel like they can bring their authentic selves.
\n\nKASHA: Correct. Yeah, it's one thing to have diversity, but then it's also another, you know, the counterbalance of inclusion. And how do you set people up for success that have different backgrounds? And I have a great strong team of rock stars, as I say, but they all are different. They all need different things. They all have different kinds of needs from a coaching or leadership perspective. Some I'm more hands-on, others I'm hands-off. But as a leader, it's being perceptive of that and saying, okay, well, this person likes to run their own ship. I'm going to be here on the sidelines. And this person I'm going to be out front. I'm going to be walking with them side by side.
\n\nI don't know why I have all these sports analogies because I was terrible at sports in junior high, in high school. But I always feel like I'm this coach out here with a whistle and a clipboard. And I'm telling them I'm like, okay, I'm going to set this person up. This person is going to happen here. And that's how I look at it from a growth perspective.
\n\nWhen I'm really assessing the roadmap and the backlog and what's going to be our impact, I'm also thinking about, well, how is everybody working cohesively? And is there a way that we can have shared experiences so that that way, oh, we learned from such and such an experiment, and that's going to influence the other half of my team? Or, actually, I'm going to have them focus, or I know that we're going to have too many mobile tests at the end of Q2 because the monetization team is also trying to test something very similar. So it's a constant juggling act in my role.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. I very much relate to that. I was a competitive rock climbing coach a few years ago on top of my full-time job.
\n\nKASHA: Oooh.
\n\nVICTORIA: And my kids would ask me if I was also a motivational speaker [laughs] because I was always pumping people up while they're climbing. So yeah, I find it fascinating how you think about the needs of your team and your own growth from an individual contributor into a leader. And how do you coach people in your team along that path, like making that transition from being really strong in product to managing a team of product people?
\n\nKASHA: Oh, that's a great question. And I love that you're like a rock climbing...I love that. I'm like, [laughs] what we call thumbs. I would just be looking; I mean, just thinking about rock climbing, my hands are probably getting sweaty right now. [laughs]
\n\nAnd for my team, I do have people that they're getting to a senior PM level, and they're like, "What's next?" And I really like to do an assessment of, like, "Well, what do you think is next? And what is really going to help your career growth?" And some of them are like, "Well, I want to do leadership. I want to do this." And I ask, just like I ask in any product question, "What's the why behind that? Is it a financial contribution? Is it a recognition? Or is it that you are really invested in people development?"
\n\nBecause one thing I do like to preference, especially people that are in early or mid-level careers, is that managing a product versus managing people are two different skill sets. And I didn't even understand that when I started to get into management; I kind of fell into it. I had a leader that exited the company, and it was like, "Oh, gosh, what will we do next?" And I was just like, "I think we should still continue to pursue the roadmap [laughs] is what I would think to do first."
\n\nSo one of the things I do say is that your work is going to change. I don't PM, and I'm not regularly with the engineering team on a day-to-day basis. And so I will say to the team that first, at certain points, you can balance it. You'll have both where you might own still part of the portfolio, but then you have maybe one or two direct parts.
\n\nBut as you start to grow, you will start to transition out of the day-to-day or building individual features or initiatives. And I do ask my PMS, are they ready for that? And if they check all the boxes and say that they have a strong why, then I start off by, okay, well, let's see if our team is eligible for an internship. We're going to open up an internship this summer, and instead of this intern reporting to me, they're going to report to you.
\n\nWhat's your onboarding plan? What's your growth strategy for this person? And then, what do you want this person to accomplish at the end of the internship? And it's a baby step for them to kind of get their feet wet on what is it like to lead someone? And then also, what are the challenges? There's always a perfect storm where things go great.
\n\nBut what about the times when things are not going great, and how do you communicate with that person? What are the nudges that they need to give for them to either redirect them, or what are the things that you need to do to kind of show them the happy path to success? So those are where I start. We have international teams and people onboarding. I work for a huge company, so there are more opportunities there.
\n\nBut then I will also say if someone wants to drive and be in a leadership role, what are the mentoring opportunities within the company? So, how would you mentor somebody? And what would be your advice? How do you set up a weekly cadence? What are your expectations of this? How should they measure success and goals? All these are things that are going to be transferable when that opportunity comes up.
\n\nAnd then also, too, what is the right situation? Is it a mix of where I'm 50% IC and then I'm, you know, this other 40%-50% of people management? I encourage them to look at opportunities internally, even if I'm at the sacrifice of losing what I call one of my rock stars. I know that it's inevitable for people to grow. And I never want to be the person that held someone back out of jealousy, or fear, or my own insecurities.
\n\nAnd I do have a strong network that when I post something, I get so many candidates. It's almost to the sense of like, wow, this person is greater. Wow, this person...wow, they went to Stanford, and they did this, and now they're transitioning. And I'm like, oh my gosh, they want to work with me. And so that's always very exciting. So I never want to get so trapped in the ideology that the team is only great with these people.
\n\nI'm like; the team starts with me and my leadership. So I need to be able to build a team. I need to be able to grow a team. And sometimes, you might have a great talent pool, and other times you don't, and then what do you do in those? I mean, that's what leadership really is. It's not always when you have everybody applying for your job, and you have all this funding, and your P&Ls are going incredible.
\n\nIt's those times where they come back to you and say, "Yeah, we're not going to get that done this sprint, so you'll just have to figure it out." Or someone's resigning that you didn't see coming. And then you're like, okay, I might have to roll up my sleeves and take over their part of the roadmap just as a stopgap till I have someone. And that's the things that can make or break your leadership.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, it's easy when everything is going great. [laughter]
\n\nKASHA: Yes. Don't we love that? [laughter]
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\n\nVICTORIA: You mentioned a few times, switching more into your approach to product management about the experiments that you run. Sometimes those go great, and sometimes they don't go so great. So can you tell me about a time you ran an experiment, and the results were really different than what you expected, and what did you do from that?
\n\nKASHA: Oh gosh, yeah. There are so many. I'm trying to think of what's the best example. Gosh, I'm like, do I go for mobile? No, web. [laughs] Well, I think in growth, a part of your experiment should fail because if they're not failing, that also means to me you're not taking enough risk. And you're taking things that you already know, in some ways, are like low-hanging fruit, and you're very comfortable in it.
\n\nAnd I do encourage my team to take a big risk of how do we start to find something? We recently had something to help users on the AI side. It was a really unique feature. A user uploads an image, and AI automatically spits out templates with this user-generated content. And we were so excited. We were watching the demos, I felt like on replay, you know, as we got out the meaning.
\n\nIt didn't necessarily do what we thought it would do. And so then we had to take a pause, like, what happened? And one of the things that we learned from the test is that people just didn't understand what they were supposed to do. They didn't understand the process of their workflow. And they also weren't engaged with what the results came back.
\n\nSo I think that's one thing that, you know, I know there's a lot of chatter in the space about AI taking over and where are we going to be. And I still think we need to have that human perspective, that person that is like, hey, these search results are really not what the consumer is looking for. And yes, it solved a requirement of picture upload output, but the output is not matching what the consumer's needs were. It didn't solve their problem. And we have to constantly continue to filter and refine the algorithm.
\n\nSo our first output back was not great. But what we learned is that we have to have more variety of the type of output of content and that we also have to do more hand-holding. As much as we think that people are going to dive right in because it's in the press, and it's in TechCrunch and on Verge, that is not our general population.
\n\nI can talk to my girlfriend; she's a doctor. And she's like, "Hey, I'm just really trying to do this for my local women physicians network." All this other stuff, she's like, "It's kind of overwhelming to me." And I didn't even see that. I was just like, "Aren't you excited that you have five options? She's like, "No, I just kind of needed the one thing with the squiggly backgrounds [laughs] and the template that I could alter." She's like, "These don't actually really speak to me."
\n\nAnd so we had to come back and re-define the algorithm and also think about less choices for people; as much as we were like, we can randomize it; we can output more types of templates. It's really about finding the cues that the user is giving us to find that right match, and it's not something that I think we're going to get...and knowing from the test, we're not going to get on the first try. We're going to continue to test this, and that's what's going to make it better because we stress-test it.
\n\nI mean, in growth, sometimes, I tell my team, like, don't get our hopes up, our hearts set into it because we can spend a lot of time in crafting the experiment and doing the 50% and then the other 50% control and variants, and then when it comes back, they're just not excited, or the consumer just didn't really gravitate or attach to it.
\n\nAnd so then we have to stop, and I think, okay, there's a lesson here. Is it the education? Is it the guidance? Isn't the language that we use? You'd be surprised how one word can throw off someone's context. And they're turned off, or they don't want to do it. Or they like, "Oh, this is kind of cool. Oh, I didn't realize that this was a free service." Or, "Oh, I didn't realize that I could save this, and it's removing the background for me. And then now I have all these options."
\n\nGrowth is a hard challenge. I mean, we move so fast, which is what I love, but then we're always kind of looking at the data and having to constantly pivot and transition based off of our previous tests. [laughs] Now I'm thinking about a time when I was at Beachbody, and I was so excited because I got to do native app development on mobile platforms, and I'd never done that before.
\n\nWe were all excited. We had an iOS product that was really strong. And, of course, many of the people that worked in the office were all iOS users. So they weren't even thinking about Android. And we had just missed the mark as a company not really focusing on building out a great Android native app experience. And we were just kind of relying on the mobile web experience.
\n\nAnd I remember thinking like, oh, okay, well, you have something. And then I went into a Facebook community group, and I just saw all the complaints. I saw all the people's frustrations. I saw also all these user-generated hacks. People were sharing what to do when your video stops. And I just was like, oh my gosh, we need to get on this.
\n\nAnd so from that experience, I was able to champion and be one of the people that was like, hey, we need to help drive this. On Android, we need to really, like, this is really a problem. We could set ourselves up for success. And then we can also grow in other markets outside of the U.S. And I remember looking at the first designs, and they were all done by our creators' team, which were iOS users.
\n\nSo even in that situation, I think of that as more of growth internally versus putting something out user-facing to the consumer. It still was a challenge. Like, how do I influence? How do I show that this is not the right path? How do I show that, hey, we're not using material design or best practices, and this is going to hurt us in the long run? Because people that are on these platforms on Android they're used to seeing things in this manner. And we're presenting it to them in another way, and then now we're wondering why they're confused.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right, right. And you mentioned a couple of different tactics to connect to that consumer voice. What other ways do you try to bring that connection between the end user and the customer, to the engineering teams, to the rest of the organization, to the business?
\n\nKASHA: I'm very privileged in my organization. We have a really strong user research team as well. As we're doing our experiments, depending on how large or how much time we'll invest into an experiment, we will do a prototype kind of test in a smaller pool, let's say, before we go out to A/B test or have a controlled and variant situation.
\n\nAnd sometimes those are the little things that I can take back, a video, or likes, comments, and send it. I don't even need to wait for it to be polished into a presentation or to a Confluence page, or even in Jira. And I can say to my counterpart, "Hey, Ganesh, do you see this? This is what I'm trying to solve for." And then it's like that aha moment. And I can say, and, you know, and engineers are always delightful. And they'll say, "Well, that's only one data point." And I'm like, "Yes, but it is a significant point. And I think if we tested this more, we will see more people are struggling with this." And how can we change that? What are their solutions?
\n\nAnd I'm really big on collaboration. Product owns kind of the deliverables and the path and is accountable for the results. But this is a joint effort between design, between data and analytics, and engineering. So early on, I present the problem. This is the why; here's kind of our best path. But what do you think?
\n\nAnd that to me and my career has always yielded such a higher result instead of coming from an authoritative or dictatorship of, "Well, this is the way that I've envisioned it. Here's my mocks, here are my wires, and this is why," and then kind of leaving it out to pasture or throwing it over the fence and saying, "Okay, and I need it in a week and a half."
\n\nAnd I've been on both sides of different product teams, and different engineering teams work differently. But I have found that when you get people to buy in, to care, and then also give them that consumer value of that person is frustrated; I mean, that's what was the trigger for me when I went into the Facebook groups. I really didn't have the biggest inclination that we were having such a problem on Android. I was an iOS user. I was happy with the product; I could get my workouts in, or I could find what I was looking for. And then, when I did that, I started screenshotting. And then, I started to share this out in the Slack channel.
\n\nAnd then there are also ways...now we have so many things where you can have bots that will record the feedback if someone says something in the App Store. That's one way to kind of bring it up to people. And then, if you don't have the funding or have an in-house user research, there's always usertesting.com. That is one way that you can start. Even if you work with design, and you guys are a small team, "Hey, I am so committed to this working. But I really would love to run a test."
\n\nAnd then also running a survey after people test or even in product, you know, what did they think about the experience? And if you can't even get that, you can always do thumbs up, thumbs down. [laughs] You can always do is this a four-star experience or a five-star? Would you like to tell us more?
\n\nI would say that sometimes we have blindness to surveys and to people asking for our opinions because you just want to get to that thing. But that small sampling of people that do respond, I think, is a way for you to kind of, if you're not sure, think about this directionally. I was leaning more towards this, but, wow, this user research came back, and I think people are going to really appreciate having this extra step.
\n\nWhich is something like an oxymoron for me because I'm always thinking about, well, what's the easiest path? Or what's the least path of resistance to getting the user into the experience? And then sometimes you're dropping them into a whole new what we call canvas or experience, and they have no idea what to do.
\n\nVICTORIA: I liked the way you described your approach or how not to do it was like, just throw things over a wall [laughs] and say, "This is the way."
\n\nKASHA: [laughs] Yes.
\n\nVICTORIA: One of my questions that I like to ask people who have design and product backgrounds is just what does product design have to do with DevOps?
\n\nKASHA: Yeah, so everybody has to have a starting point. And a lot of times, I was definitely a product manager when I was more in the day-to-day, and I see where...in my mind, I like to figure things out on my own. And that way, I like to come with this pretty package of, like, I thought of all the different angles. I thought of the best use case and the worst use case.
\n\nAnd as much as that was delightful for me, I noticed that the people in engineering would kind of check a box too, and they'd be like, okay, done. And then we might get to a certain point, and they would be like, "Oh, well..." one time when I was building something for Beachbody, and, again, it was on Android, and it was the search. And I didn't think anything of it. I was just like, oh yeah, top result, then stack rank alphabetically.
\n\nAnd then I hadn't thought about new content. And I remember thinking, like, why didn't my engineer say this? Because this is something that we do on iOS. And they said, "Well, you never asked us." [laughs] And I was there, you know, "But you work on the product too." And they're like, "Oh yeah, but you run the show. So this is what you wanted, so this is what I coded."
\n\nAnd I just remember feeling like I had egg on my face in a meeting because now we had all this new content coming out, and the search results weren't accommodating for new content. They were accommodating for the existing metadata. And I just remember thinking like, never again. And from a DevOps perspective, I think of there's a lot of change in the industry where we also have product ops people as well.
\n\nAnd I think of it as additional layering; it can be good and bad. I think there are positives and advantages. I think there are always growing points. And I think you have to give what is the ultimate goal? Like, if you do have a DevOps team, are they also early in the iteration? Are they part of the brainstorms? That's how I run my small pod. We have design, analytics, and engineering part of our early brainstorms.
\n\nSo instead of us kind of holding our ideas in a huddle, we will kind of tee up, let's say, our top five and say, "Hey, directionally, this is the direction that we're going." And we're framing it to the problems that are most important for us to solve. So we don't turn it into a hackathon where people are trying to build a spaceship in a brainstorm. That's not the goal.
\n\nThe goal is that, hey, we have these particular problems. This is the direction that we want to go in, and this is how we carry it through. And then, what do you guys think? And then we're in a Miro board in real-time. And we put the timer on and then get everybody's opinions. And some product groups I've seen where product team doesn't actually talk to the engineering. They just talk to the technical PM, which then translates out what the actual specs and requirements are.
\n\nI haven't been part of that type of org yet in my career. I have been traditionally where it's a one-to-one ratio where if there's a product manager, there's going to be a data and analytics analyst assigned to them. There's going to be an engineer assigned to them. There's also going to be a designer. And that's been my sweet spot. And I've had a lot of gains and tractions for that.
\n\nIn my mind, ideas can come from anywhere. It doesn't have to start with product, but product is going to be the leader. And I don't want to think of it as a gatekeeping situation. But we're the ones that are going to drive it through with our own cross-functional teams as a partnership. So I hope that answers the question about DevOps; I'm not sure. Sometimes I can get into a little bit of a tangent [laughs] and start talking about my own experience.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love talking about it because some product, people will say nothing. [laughter]
\n\nKASHA: Oh really?
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm like, no, you're supposed to talk to people. Bring everybody in, and that's the whole philosophy of it. And I like that you mentioned product ops and design ops as well, thinking about how you can automate the process of what you're doing or how the information flows across your team. I'm sure with your designs and end product, and everything is more on the product ops side.
\n\nKASHA: And I think having an ops, you know, it does have like one central point of contact. So if you want to think about alleviating steps, or reducing the white noise, or the friction that you may have in the organization, you have one kind of point of contact. And that person will own it, and they'll almost become a mini pod and then distribute the information, which is definitely like a gain and a positive.
\n\nI just wonder on the reverse side, though, how does that engineer or how does that designer then surface, "Hey, what about this?" Or "I think this is a better way," or "Actually, we tested this two years ago, and the results weren't great." And so that's the only thing where how does that two way-communication go back and forth when you have ops?
\n\nI think ops definitely gives more structure. You're definitely in a high performance. Everybody knows what their marching orders are. We know who's on first. And we also know from an accountability and an escalation process where all these pieces are working together. So I can see the benefits to it. I'm not opposed to it. I just want to make sure that the people that are actually building the product also have time to have a say and have an opinion.
\n\nAnd whether that helps change me, I want to at least hear the feedback first. And then as a product leader and as a product manager, it's up to that person to make the decision of, like, okay, you know what? I've thought about this looking at the data, or this person raised a really significant point that I hadn't considered. I do think that we need to think about this and focus. That's the advantage for me, I feel like, of having that bottoms-up approach to development and then running your teams.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think that makes sense. And you're right; I think it can be successful. But I think there's a good warning there about...and people do this with DevOps teams as well where they create a DevOps team and then put them in a silo, right? [laughs]
\n\nKASHA: Yeah.
\n\nVICTORIA: And that's kind of missing the point about the whole thing. It's like we want to power these people.
\n\nKASHA: Yeah, everything new is old again. I remember when I didn't even talk to an engineer. And I remember...and this was early in my product when I had the product specialist. I would be at my cube writing requirements. I thought they were great. And then we switched to an agile format, and I remember going into a meeting thinking, okay, we're just going to go over the stuff that's next. And they had all these questions for me, and it terrified me. [laughter]
\n\nBecause it made me think, like, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about or, yeah, I didn't think about the error messaging. Oh, okay, yeah, what happens if someone loses internet connection during that session and they've started the process? Oh, I don't know. What should happen? [laughs] And so there were all these kinds of questions.
\n\nBut before, I would just process my requirements, put it in a Jira ticket. And then you might get some Jira comments, but there wasn't this back-and-forth in real-time. And then, I had to really step up and write my requirements better. Because at that point, I had just had like, oh, this happens in check one. This happens at step two. And then step three, the end. That was my own kind of naive perspective at the time when I was writing requirements.
\n\nAnd I didn't know that the engineers had all these questions because we had that layer of...they didn't call it a DevOps person. I think they called it, you know, an engineering lead where he would just take the tickets, and then they were doing their own sub tickets to make it make sense. And so then, when we started to transition into more of an agile and rating things and giving value to them, I really had to change.
\n\nAnd it helped me grow. And it was definitely uncomfortable. But it definitely pushed me into thinking, okay, someone's reading this. They're an engineer. They're not thinking about this. How can I get as clear as possible but also still think about the consumer or the persona that I'm thinking about that is trying to solve this problem?
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. It reminds me of one of my first jobs actually was in Washington, D.C., which you went to undergrad there. I would actually pass by Howard University on the bus every day to work. [laughs]
\n\nKASHA: Oh wow. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: I wonder, are you familiar with BisonHacks and their annual hackathon that they have there? I know you're from the film department. But the computer science does a hackathon there every year.
\n\nKASHA: I am not familiar with that specific one. But I participated; I mean, we have some at Adobe. We have our regular hackathons internally. But I would love to hear more about the one that you're describing. It sounds pretty fascinating. Do they have an ultimate goal? Are they building from an existing product, or is this something new?
\n\nVICTORIA: I think it's something new. So I believe that they come together to create solutions to help improve the livelihood of the DMV community.
\n\nKASHA: Oh wow.
\n\nVICTORIA: So I think every year they make it a different purpose.
\n\nKASHA: Okay, I got it.
\n\nVICTORIA: But they interact with students and do different projects. And it's a super fun organization. So, yeah, I'll send you a link. We'll share it in the show notes as well. [laughs]
\n\nKASHA: Yeah. I love it. I love it. This podcast I'm already growing [laughter] in the short time we've talked, so I love that.
\n\nVICTORIA: And we're coming to the end of our time here. I have one final question before I ask you if you have any other final takeaways. [laughs] But what are you most excited about on the roadmap for Adobe Express that you have coming?
\n\nKASHA: Well, I'm excited...gosh, what can I share? [laughs] I'm like, I see legal tapping me on the shoulder. [laughs] I'm excited that we are making so many improvements to really simplify the experience and that we're also diversifying our use cases of the types of people that will be coming to the platform.
\n\nSo when I say that, let's say we've been focused on what we call the social creator, or the small business owner, or hustler, I really want to lean more into that and expand that. We also have more of what we call our pro users coming to Adobe Express. So if you think of someone that's a professional graphic designer that may need something where they need to have a collaborator, we're enhancing that process.
\n\nAnd then also, I'm most excited coming into 2023 is that Adobe's Express is going to be what we think of as the doorway to all the Adobe ecosystem. So whether you start with Express on a small scale and building out a template, you can really grow with this product. And whether you use it for your everyday either social needs or even in your everyday work or marketing, you can start to have people come to the platform and collaborate on it.
\n\nWe have so many exciting things that it's interesting because my team is focused on activation and repeat engagement, and how do those two worlds kind of marry each other? Getting the user in from having them on a first great day one experience and then carrying them through for when they return.
\n\nAnd one thing that I'm excited for is that we've had this recent pivot, and this came out of user research. We don't have to wait for the user to leave the platform to remind them of all the great things that we can do. And I'm really excited about having machine learning capabilities on the platform; where, if your next step is this, what's the next best available action? And then how does that help enhance not only your experience of the product but then also starting to plant those seeds of you can schedule this in advance or creating this type of content once a week will drive exponentially your growth on your platform?
\n\nAnd that, to me, is making us stronger and really looking at it not only from I want the consumer to do these series of high-value actions, but I really want to see them grow on their own personal platform level. And here's a tool that can help you do everything that you need to.
\n\nAnd whether you're someone that posts once a week, or whether you're someone in an office that is collaborating for a marketing meeting, or if you're a professional that has something that, you know, I just really want to use a template. I have an aesthetic. I know how to use Photoshop. I know how to use Illustrator. But let me put this in Express. I can send it to the client. They can make comments, and then they can also feel like they're part of the creative process.
\n\nThat makes me happy because I was this fine arts major. It feels like 100 years ago. [laughs] And I remember thinking like, oh wow, I love these products. They're expensive, or saving up for them. And then now there are so many different plans. There are so many different ways. And I would have loved an opportunity to have a free product that allowed me to just start to understand my own type of style and capabilities without having this feeling that I have to be a designer and that everything has to be perfect. So I'm excited for that.
\n\nWe have so much growth planned, new, exciting ways on the platform. And, also, you'll see some new looks. I can't share too much more than that. [laughter] So I hope the little bit of tidbit doesn't get me in trouble. But sometimes you got to break some rules. You got to break some eggs to make an omelet.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nVICTORIA: Any other final thoughts for our listeners today?
\n\nKASHA: I would love for, you know, to give me feedback. I always love doing these. I'm active on LinkedIn. You can find me at Kasha Stewart. Shoot me a note. I get a healthy amount of mail, but I promise I will reply back to you if you have questions and what your biggest challenges are. Check out Adobe Express. It's free, by the way.
\n\nAnd continue to, you know; I just remember being this, like, early in my career and having these questions, and at different points, I was afraid to ask questions because I was like, I don't want to sound silly. Or maybe I'm not understanding that, or, you know, maybe I should have been a CS major. And I say to people now, like, you have to have a starting point. You never know what is next on the horizon. Or that everybody had been thinking about that and they were just waiting for the person to raise their hand. That's one of the things that I always want to encourage people and to check out these products, communities.
\n\nAnd thank you to this podcast for allowing me to share my journey and my story. It's always a pleasure. I learned something, and I'm like, oh yeah, I did actually do that. But that was a while ago that; I might forget. So it's good. It's like having my own little mini retro. So I thank you for inviting me here and to, you know, share my journey.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, thank you. That's a very powerful message, and I appreciate you coming on today to share it with us.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThank you for listening. We'll see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Special Guest: Kasha Stewart.
Sponsored By:
Lauren Makler is Co-Founder, and CEO of Cofertility, a human-first fertility ecosystem rewriting the egg freezing and egg donation experience.
\n\nVictoria talks to Lauren about tackling the access issues around egg freezing and donation and hoping to bring down the cost, leaving a company like Uber and starting her own business, and figuring out a go-to-market approach and what that strategy should look like.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Lauren Makler, Co-Founder, and CEO of Cofertility, a human-first fertility ecosystem rewriting the egg freezing and egg donation experience. Lauren, thank you for joining me.
\n\nLAUREN: Thanks for having me. I'm so excited for this.
\n\nVICTORIA: Me too. I want to hear all about Cofertility. Can you tell me a little bit more about the platform that you built?
\n\nLAUREN: Absolutely. Cofertility is really like you said; we're a fertility ecosystem. And at our core, we're enabling women to freeze their eggs for free when they donate half of the eggs retrieved to a family that can't otherwise conceive, providing support and education for everyone involved along the way. You know, we're serving two very different audiences. One side of our business, our Freeze by Co, is targeted at women between the ages of 21 and 40 who might be interested in preserving their fertility.
\n\nWe know that really the best time to freeze your eggs, unfortunately, is when you can least afford it. And so we've really taken on this access issue and hoping to bring down the cost on that front. And then our Family by Co business is for intended parents who need the help of an egg donor to have a child, so that could be anyone from people who struggle with infertility, or gay dads, cancer survivors, et cetera.
\n\nThere are a lot of people that really rely on third-party reproduction to have a family, and we think it's time to really move that industry forward, and we're doing that in a lot of ways. So that's at a high level; happy to dig in more on any part of that. But we launched in October, and things have been going well ever since.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. Yeah, I want to ask you more about...you mentioned the problem that you identified with when people who are most ready to freeze their eggs probably can't afford it. [laughs] But how did you really identify that problem and think I should start a company around this?
\n\nLAUREN: Yeah, so it's a two-part problem. I think we see a big problem on the egg-freezing side, which is truly cost. I think we know that women are starting families later than ever. For the first time in U.S. history, the average age of women giving birth now is 30, which is the highest on record. And the experimental label from egg freezing was removed in 2012, and so it's become much more mainstream for women to do it.
\n\nHowever, the cost to do it in the U.S. is between; I want to say, $12,000-20,000 to do it, plus yearly storage fees. And there are some women who have access to doing it through their large employer, but for the majority of people, that's just not the case. And so, for women who are really trying to prioritize their career or their education or maybe haven't found a partner yet, egg freezing can be a great option.
\n\nAnd certainly, it's not an insurance policy by any means, and it's not a guarantee. But studies show that if you experience infertility later in life and you did freeze your eggs, you're much more likely to have a child than not. And so we see it as a great backup option. But again, cost is just truly a huge problem.
\n\nAnd then, on the egg donation side, there are tons of families that rely on egg donation to have a baby. And I'm someone...I should mention, too, personally, years ago...I'll make a very long story very short here. Years ago, I was diagnosed with an incredibly rare abdominal disease that put into question my ability to have a biological child someday. And so, I started to look into what my options might be, and egg donation came up.
\n\nAnd when I looked at what was happening in the space, I just couldn't believe how antiquated it was. And truly, for lack of a better word, how icky it felt. It seemed really transactional and impersonal for everyone involved. And what I realized was that it was really rooted in the stigma around egg donation that comes from cash compensation for donors.
\n\nSo traditionally, a donor is paid anywhere from $8,000 to $100,000 for her eggs, depending on, unfortunately, her pedigree or sometimes her heritage. Something that might be, you know, a donor that's harder to find might require more compensation the way it's done today. And so we actually saw that many women who are interested in helping another family grow through egg donation can actually be off-put by this idea of cash for their eggs. It's like, ooh, am I selling my eggs, or how do I feel about that? And it actually turns people off when it might otherwise have been something they wanted to explore.
\n\nIt also, I think, leaves intended parents without options that they need and really hurts the LGBTQ community that relies on egg donation for family planning. So there's a lot there. And we felt that that was something that if we remove cash compensation, perhaps it's something that really opens up the pie of women that are open to and interested in egg donation. And it also might really honor the donor-conceived person on the end of it more than what's happening today.
\n\nStudies have come out that show that donor-conceived adults find the exchange of money for donor eggs to be wrong and that they can actually find it disturbing that money was exchanged for their own conception. So our model takes out cash compensation and instead gives women something that they're excited about, which is preserving their own fertility as well and really sets up everyone involved for success.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. I saw that in your literature, you bring this human-centered design to how you built the platform, which I think speaks to a little bit of what you're describing there. And do you think that being a woman founder yourself allows you to relate and empathize with women who have this unique perspective or a different perspective on how egg donation should work?
\n\nLAUREN: Yes, egg donation and egg freezing, honestly. I think I mentioned a little bit about my own experience. Both of my two co-founders have also really, really been through it when it comes to their journeys to parenthood; both of them have been through IVF. And one of them says, you know, her biggest regret in life is that she didn't freeze her eggs at 25. And now, instead of just sitting in that, she's building a company to help other women not have that same regret.
\n\nSo building the company we wished existed when we were younger lets us build something that truly is empathetic and human-centered. And it's unfortunate that so much of healthcare is built and designed by people who, while maybe they have good intentions, they're not building from a place of experience, and I think reproductive health is one of those. I think women need to be involved in designing those solutions, and too often, they're not.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. Yes. That makes a lot of sense to me. And I want to talk more about you and your three co-founders and how quickly all this has come together. So, how did you know that your team of co-founders was the right team that these are the people you wanted to start this with?
\n\nLAUREN: Yeah, it's an interesting question on so many fronts. I think there are people who spend a really long time, like co-founder dating, and use frameworks for evaluating co-founders, and the truth of it for us is that it all happened very quickly. Halle, who is the person who connected the three of us, she is one of my co-founders, and she's just someone I had long admired in digital health and women's health.
\n\nAnd there was a day where...we peripherally knew each other. And she slid into my DMs on Instagram. Like, you never know where a great contact may come from. And she asked me what I was up to, what I was working on, and the rest is history. I told her I had just left...I spent eight and a half years at Uber and launched new markets of Uber across the East Coast and then started a business line at Uber called Uber Health, and Halle had always followed my trajectory there.
\n\nAnd when she reached out to me, it was like, [gasps] what's it going to be about? And when it ended up that she had an idea centered around egg freezing and egg donation, given the experience I had had with my own fertility journey, it just felt like how could this not be the right thing for me to go build? So I would say gut instinct is really what it comes down to.
\n\nHalle and Arielle, our third co-founder, had worked together a bit in their past lives. Halle built a company called Natalist, which is fertility, pregnancy tests, ovulation kits, and prenatal vitamins, things like that. And Arielle had actually built the first iteration of Cofertility, which was a fertility content site. And they had had that rapport already, and so that was something that I valued quite a bit. Really talking to some references and getting opinions of people you trust, but your gut, more than anything, will help you answer that question.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And sounds like there's that shared experience and mutual respect, which goes a long way. [laughs]
\n\nLAUREN: Yeah, that and also a shared vision. Like, if you're aligned with someone in the first month or so of talking about an idea, and when it goes from a little kernel to snowballing and becoming something real, I think it's a good signal. But if you're butting heads and disagreeing in that first really crucial time, it's probably a good idea to go in a different direction.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And thinking along those lines, were there decisions that were really easy to make, and what were those? And the second part of the question is what decisions were kind of challenging to make, and what made those decisions challenging?
\n\nLAUREN: It's funny. Halle was just like, "This idea is going to work, and I know it. Let's do it." I am someone who likes to see evidence before making a decision. And so I suggested in those first two weeks, like, let's get a survey together. Let's ask women, "Hey, would you actually be interested in egg donation if it meant that you got to keep half of the eggs for yourself and that there was no cash compensation involved?" So we asked a few influencers on Instagram to put out our Typeform, and within, like, I don't know, 24 hours, we had over 700 responses.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow.
\n\nLAUREN: And it was a very resounding like, yes, this is something women were interested in. That gave me all the conviction I needed to go at this full force. And so I think having that proof point not only was valuable to help me get there, but it also helped investors get on board. I think some of the easy decisions were like there were certain investors that after meeting I just knew like, yes, this is someone I want to be working with over the next few years. This is someone who sees the same vision that we see.
\n\nAnd there were a few conversations with other potential investors where I was like, you know what? That's not who I want to work with. Again, it's like, I'm very big on my instincts as it relates to people and trusting that.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And congratulations on raising your seed funding.
\n\nLAUREN: Thank you.
\n\nVICTORIA: And was that a stressful process? How did you feel after that happened?
\n\nLAUREN: Parts of it were stressful, for sure. I think the fact that I had never done it before was stressful. I like to call myself...before this, I was an intrapreneur. I pitched the idea of Uber Health to Uber executive leadership with a deck that was very similar to what you would pitch external investors with in a scenario like this. So I had gone through a little bit of that but never before had I done anything quite like this.
\n\nAnd so I felt very lucky to have Halle by my side through that process because it wasn't her first rodeo. But I would say trusting yourself and trusting that you can figure this out. It seems so much more intimidating than it needs to be. No one is expecting you to fully know how all of this stuff works. It's very figureoutable.
\n\nVICTORIA: And what obstacles did you face in the last year that you've been working on this?
\n\nLAUREN: The biggest obstacle, I would say, honestly came down to having the time to both get a company off the ground...and I like to imagine an aeroplane. You have to figure out what kind of plane you're building; then you have to find all the parts, then you have to build the plane. And then the goal upon launch, I can imagine it when I close my eyes. It is like getting the plane off the ground.
\n\nAnd with a startup, like you can imagine, there's always a bit of building the plane while you're flying it. But doing all of that over the last year, plus finding the right people to hire, is two full-time jobs. You're sourcing incredible candidates. You're meeting with them. You're pitching them the business. But you also need to evaluate whether or not they're as great as their resume makes them seem. Then you have to convince them to join your seed-stage startup, then check their references, and then put together their offer package, and then do all of their paperwork.
\n\nAnd it was like all of these things that I took for granted at Uber for so long of having recruiters, and having an HR team, [laughs] and all of those things that truly it is a full-time job plus building a company. So that, for me, was the hardest. And hiring just at that early stage is so, so important because you add one person, and that's like such a huge percentage of your team. So every hire has to be a great one, but you also can't wait too long to hire because then you miss your goals.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. Yes. And there's lots of uncertainty going on in the world as well. I'm sure that makes hiring extra exciting.
\n\nLAUREN: Yes. I mean, exciting and also scary. I think exciting from the fact that there's great talent that's looking in a way that wasn't necessarily the case six months ago, but scary in that you have to...one of my biggest or things that keeps me up at night is like, what's the right timing to bring on new people so that your business scales appropriately but not too soon that you have people waiting around for the work to come?
\n\nVICTORIA: Right, yes. And speaking of scary, I can imagine the choice to leave a company like Uber and go and start your own business was thrilling. [laughs] Can you tell me more about how that happened, or what was the order of operations there?
\n\nLAUREN: I'll go back to my personal story a little bit. So I ended up with this disease that I had been diagnosed with. It was so rare and so not a lot of data on this disease that I decided it was...or these doctors were like, "You know what? Do you have a sister by any chance?" I was like, "What do you mean?" They were like, "You know, it's too risky for you to freeze your eggs just because we don't have any data on your disease. But if you have your sister freeze her eggs and donate them to you, you have them as a backup should you need them." So my incredible sister did that.
\n\nAnd I learned a lot about the process of donation even through that experience. And went on to have three surgeries and ultimately was able to conceive without using my sister's eggs which was crazy and exciting and definitely gave my doctors a shock, which was great. And when I had my daughter, it was like this light bulb went off of, like, I have to build something in reproductive health. If I'm spending my time building something, I want it to be spent giving people who want to have a child this amazing gift that I've been given.
\n\nAnd it was like an immediate amount of clarity. And so, after my maternity leave, I gave notice at Uber without a plan. I did not have a business idea. I did not have a job lined up. I was fortunate enough to be able to do that. But I almost think releasing myself of that is what gave me the freedom to think about other things. And it was within a day that Halle sent me that DM on Instagram without knowing I had given notice. So the universe works in mysterious ways.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's wonderful and so exciting and that you just had a baby and then to be in a position where you could start a company and almost feel like I don't have enough to do; [laughter] I want to start a new company too. [laughs]
\n\nLAUREN: I know. I ended up...the day we pitched our lead investors was my daughter's six-month birthday.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's amazing.
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\n\nVICTORIA: How do you balance that, like, those needs of being a mom and maybe being sleep deprived, but also starting this incredibly important business that you're passionate about?
\n\nLAUREN: I mean, I'm very lucky that I have an amazing husband and sort of partner in all of this. We both are very involved in each other's work, and I highly recommend that if that's something you're open to. I think it gives you an outlet and someone to be invested in it with you but also more to talk about with your partner. [laughs]
\n\nBut other than that, too, I think having boundaries. So I've been really, really specific with myself and with my team about what windows of time I'm with my daughter, and I'm meticulous about it. If that means on certain days, I wake up before she does so that I can get some work done so that I have two hours with her first thing in the morning, and then I'm off between the hours of 4:00 to 7:00 so that I can spend time with her. If that means getting back online at night, I'm down to do that. I just won't compromise the time with her.
\n\nAnd my team has been really respectful and honoring of that. And in turn, I really encourage everyone on my team to have a life outside work, whether that's with their children or their pets, or having physical activity, or things like that in their life. I think it's so important that we're not entirely defined by our startups. I think that's how people burn out really quickly. And it's like 2023, right? We don't need to be in this hustle culture where 100% of our time is focused on building our company. It's just not sustainable.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. I like that you mentioned sustainability. And that's been a recurring theme I've seen where, yeah, the hustle culture leads to burnout. It isn't sustainable. So are there other cultural or values that you impart onto your team, this new team, that you're standing up to create that sustainability in that innovation that you want?
\n\nLAUREN: Yeah. I think one thing we've implemented...I would highly recommend actually Matt Mochary's CEO Curriculum. You can find it by Googling it, or I can share the link with you. And within his curriculum, he has something called The Magic Questions. And the magic questions it's like five or six questions where you ask everyone on your team, like, how would they rate their life at work? How would they rate working with the team? How's their personal life going? Like, you know, questions that you can quickly get to the root of something.
\n\nBut then, aside from giving a rating for each of those questions, it asks like, "How would you take it to the next level?" And what I think implementing these questions has done is it's like each time we do it, it gives the leadership team something to act on of like, "Hey, I noticed a theme amongst the employees with this set of magic questions. Like, here are some things we can address to improve that for everyone."
\n\nAnd then there are also opportunities with each individual to say, "Hey, manager of this person, so and so called out that they're really struggling with prioritization this month, or they're really struggling with being split on these two projects. How can we help relieve that, or how can we dig in with that person so that the next time we ask these questions, that's not still an issue and that we've been able to take swift action to help improve that?"
\n\nI think that really helps to just stay close to what people are feeling and thinking. And it also gives people, I think, more self-awareness of how they're doing and what they can be intentional about and address for themselves as well.
\n\nVICTORIA: I like that. I'll have to look up that book and share it in our show notes as well and --
\n\nLAUREN: It's actually even all online. It's like a Google Doc you can look at.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's awesome.
\n\nLAUREN: And there's also a book called The Great CEO Within by Matt Mochary. But I love the book and the Google Doc version.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's awesome. And it sounds like you really pulled everything together so fast. [laughs] I'm curious about your background if you feel like there were...you mentioned that you pitched inwardly to Uber. But what else about your background kind of lends you to this leadership-founder skill set?
\n\nLAUREN: I mean, I joined Uber in 2013 when we had, I think, fewer than 200 employees, and we were in about 12 cities. So I very much knew startup life. And I understood this idea of sort of building the plane while you're flying it and saw that. And so I think that certainly has contributed to this. It's important when you're a founder to surround yourself with other founders and to have people that you can tap into at any point.
\n\nI'm in a few different Slack groups with different founders; some are healthcare founders, some women founders, some through the VCs that we've worked with where it's really easy to say, "Hey, which payroll tool are you using?" Or "Hey, like, how do I measure employee NPS?" Or "What tools are you using for this or that?" And if you can tap into other founders, you really can move a lot faster. You don't have to write your entire employee handbook from scratch because you can borrow from other people. I think that's one of the best hacks that I would recommend.
\n\nAnd then some of these books that I found that really do, you know, within that Matt Mochary book, it's like, here's a way to make candidate offers. Obviously, the book isn't doing the work for you, but it certainly is helping to give you a framework. And then the other piece is like, aside from your own team, I think bringing in some advisors who you trust and can go to for certain things. So two of our advisors are people I worked incredibly closely with at Uber and would trust with my life and so why not trust them with my company? So bringing them into the mix has been a real relief.
\n\nAnd then just sort of about your community. I think it takes a village to raise...I think, actually, I would compare launching a company to having a baby. So if having a baby takes a village, so does launching a company.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. Or no founder is an island. [laughs]
\n\nLAUREN: Yeah, exactly.
\n\nVICTORIA: There's like a community, a whole group around that. I've heard, even in the episodes I've recorded, that it's a common theme among successful founders, which is heartwarming and understandable. So last question about just how it all got started. But if you could travel back in time to when you first decided you wanted to go after this opportunity, what advice would you give yourself now that you have all your present knowledge?
\n\nLAUREN: I say this even to our intended parents who are grappling with this decision of using an egg donor to have a baby: remain steadfast on the vision or the end goal and be flexible on the how. So if you're an intended parent, it's like, remain flexible, like, steadfast on this idea that you want to become a parent, but be flexible on the how.
\n\nWith a company, I think stay true to what that ultimate vision is. So, for us, it's like help more people have babies on their own timeline and be flexible on the how, so exactly what our business model was, or exactly what our go-to-market approach would be, or exactly which product we were going to use to get there. I wish I had been a little bit more open to it being a winding road than I realized I needed to be at the beginning. So now I know that, and I'm open to any possibility as long as it gets us to the same place.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right, gotcha. Yeah, well, let me ask you then about your go-to-market strategy since you mentioned it. What was unique in your strategy there, especially to target the specific consumers that you want to with this app?
\n\nLAUREN: So I did follow a bit of an Uber approach, which is this idea of a soft launch. And the reason for that...so basically what we did was for the Freeze by Co side of our business, so for women who are interested in freezing, they have the option to join our split program where they donate half to intended parents and do it for free. Or they can join our Keep Program, where they freeze their eggs but keep 100% of the eggs for themselves. And we help do that along the way.
\n\nHowever, basically, we couldn't launch Family by Co to help people find donors until we had donors. So it made sense to launch the Freeze by Co side of our business first. And I wanted the ability to market to them when we didn't have the eyes of the whole industry on us, or we didn't have tons and tons of consumers reading our press or things like that just yet.
\n\nAnd so by soft launching with a quick beta Squarespace page, we were able to test our hypothesis, test our messaging, test our funnel, test our experience before really putting a ton of marketing spend behind it or having a ton of visibility into what we were doing. And I'm so, so grateful we did that.
\n\nIt led us, like, we went through probably five different versions of our funnel before we got to our public launch, and our soft launch really afforded us the opportunity to do that. So by the time we turned on the Family by Co side of our business, we already had over 50 donors on day one for them because we had already gotten these women through the funnel.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And that's something we talk a lot about with founders at thoughtbot is that idea of validating your product, and you talked about it with your Instagram poll that you did with influencers. And the way you're talking about your go-to-market strategy is that you wanted to make sure that even though you knew this is what you wanted to do, that you had the right approach and that you could create something that consumers actually wanted to buy and had trust in.
\n\nLAUREN: Mm-hmm, totally.
\n\nVICTORIA: You launched in October 2022. Are there any results post-launch that surprised you?
\n\nLAUREN: I feel so grateful that our launch truly exceeded my expectations. So the interest from women in our programs has been overwhelming, like overwhelming in a good way. And then intended parents are thrilled about it. So we are making matches every day of these intended parents and these donors. And every time we make a match, I'm like, oh my God, it feels like Christmas morning. You're helping people find their path towards growing their family, and there's nothing that feels better than that. I don't think that feeling is ever going to go away, so I'm thrilled about it.
\n\nBut it doesn't mean that it's not hard. I think back to that analogy of like having a baby, you know, you launch this company. You hope it's received. You count ten fingers, ten toes, hope that it's received, hope that it's received. It is, but then you have the demand, and you have inbound on partnership opportunities, and you have managing the demand and handling the leads and things like that. And it's like so much more than you expect.
\n\nIt's like the same feeling of having a newborn of, like, [gasps] how are we going to do all this? Am I going to stay up all night to manage this? Or how do we handle what we're seeing? And so it's a lot, and figuring out what this new normal is is something that my team and I are working through every day.
\n\nVICTORIA: What's wonderful is that the surprise feels even better than you thought it would. [laughs]
\n\nLAUREN: Yes.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. For myself, as I'm in my 30s and I'm married and, you know, I'm not thinking it about at some point in the future. But what advice do you think you want women to think about regarding their fertility at any age, like if you could talk to consumers directly like you are now? [laughs]
\n\nLAUREN: Totally. Just that it's never too soon to ask those questions. And the information you need and should want is like inside your body but ready to be shared with you. So by having a consult with a fertility clinic, and that's something my team could help you with, you can learn about your prospects for having a baby and understanding how fertile you are.
\n\nAnd just because, you know, they say, "Oh, as long as you're under a certain age, you shouldn't have a problem," doesn't mean that that's the case. One of my co-founders was 28 when she started trying to conceive and was completely blindsided that this was going to be a real struggle for her, and that breaks my heart. It doesn't need to be like that. If we're more proactive and we start asking these questions younger, then we can actually do something about it.
\n\nSo your fertility is really about your egg quantity and your egg quality, and both of those things are things that can be tested and measured. And I think I'm someone who loves data. And having that data, I think, can help enable you to make decisions about how you can best move forward, and for some, it might mean having a baby soon. For others, it might mean freezing your eggs. For others, it might be a waiting scenario. But that's something that you can make a more informed decision about if you have that data.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. And I'll be sharing this episode with all of my friends and everything on Instagram as well.
\n\nLAUREN: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Great information to put out there. And what's on the horizon for you? What are the big challenges that you see coming up for Cofertility in the next months or year?
\n\nLAUREN: I think really like scale is what we're focused on. So we've started making matches; it feels great. I want us to be prepared to do those at scale. We are seeing no slowdown in terms of people who are interested in this. And so, making sure that our team is ready and able to handle that demand is my absolute top priority. So I think scale is top of mind.
\n\nI think making sure we're optimizing our experience for that is really important. So how do we make sure that everyone is having a magical, smooth experience, both through our digital experience but also if they're on the phone with someone from our team or if they're reading our materials at the fertility clinic? Like, how do we ensure that that's a great experience all around?
\n\nVICTORIA: Right, that makes sense. And right now, is Cofertility specific to a certain location, or is it nationwide?
\n\nLAUREN: Nationwide throughout the U.S.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. And you yourself are based in California, right?
\n\nLAUREN: Yes, I'm based in Los Angeles. And our team is fully remote, which has been a really exciting thing to do. We're in different time zones and have a lot of opportunity to visit people in different cities, which is nice.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that's great, yeah. How do you help build that culture remotely with a brand-new team?
\n\nLAUREN: So, for us, I think we're very intentional about having team off sites at least twice a year. We also get together for different things like planning meetings or conferences that are really relevant to us. But I think part of it, too, is really around different touchpoints throughout the day. And we have a daily stand-up.
\n\nWe also are clear about which hours everyone sort of overlaps based on their time zones and making sure that people are available during those windows and then giving everyone flexibility otherwise in terms of when it makes the most sense to do their work, not being too prescriptive. And really, again, encouraging people to have a life outside work, I think, makes it so that we get the best out of our team.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, we've got similar...at thoughtbot, we have in-person meetups once or twice a year and then go to different conferences and things together. And I think some people do miss a little bit of the office experience, but for the most part, everyone is happy to put it that way. [laughs]
\n\nLAUREN: Yeah, it's definitely...I think for sure it has its pros and cons. I think what I love about it is that we're not limited with talent. Our team truly, like, [laughs] we have people...we have someone in Oakland, someone in Miami, someone in Charleston, someone in Boston, someone in New York City. Like, the fact that we're not limited because of geography feels great. And I admittedly really love the ability to see my daughter throughout the day and feel like I don't have to stress over how much time I'm spending commuting. So I can't see myself ever going back.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's right, and LA is certainly a place to have a long commute. [laughter] And have you gotten any benefit out of local networking and community around Los Angeles or Southern California?
\n\nLAUREN: Yes, absolutely. Even this Friday night, I'm going to a female founder dinner. I have something coming up in a couple of weeks with this group of women's health founders that I really love. It's so, so valuable to have people in your network that are both local and get the life that you're living while you're doing it. I think having people understand why your life is the way it is while you're building a company is really quite nice. So there are founder communities everywhere but seeking those out early is definitely helpful.
\n\nVICTORIA: And then if you have a remote team, then each team member can have that local community, so you're 10x-ing. [laughs]
\n\nLAUREN: Completely.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, wonderful. Is there anything else, anything that you think I should have asked you that I haven't asked yet?
\n\nLAUREN: No. I think one thing I would encourage is when you're trying to figure out your go-to-market approach, what the strategy is going to be. I'm a big fan of getting everything really in slides. Get it in slides and bring in some people you trust. Talk to your advisors, talk to your investors, talk to your co-founders or your team and say, "Hey, these are the three ways this could go. Here are pros and cons of each one," and making a decision that way.
\n\nI think when we try to do it where it's like all in someone's head, and you're not getting it out on paper with pros and cons, it can feel like a really, really hard decision. But when you see things on paper, and you're able to get the opinion of people you trust, everything is able to come to fruition much more quickly, and you can get to a decision faster.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. So you're probably really buzzing with ideas early on and finding ways to communicate those and get it so that you can practice talking about it to somebody else. Makes sense.
\n\nLAUREN: Yeah. It's like, how do you socialize it? That's a great way to do it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, well, wonderful. This has been a really enjoyable conversation. I appreciate you coming on the show so much, and thank you for sharing all about Cofertility with us. Any other final takeaways for our listeners?
\n\nLAUREN: Thanks so much for having me. If you're interested at all in what we're doing or it would be helpful to connect, our website is cofertility.com. You can find me on Instagram at @laurenmakler, L-A-U-R-E-N-M-A-K-L-E-R. Happy to chat really about anything as it relates to building a company, or your fertility, or just questions you have in general. I would love to chat.
\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you so much. And you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening, and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.
Sponsored By:
Shaila Sahai is the Founder of We Take Part, an investment crowdfunding platform that connects eco-conscious investors and green tech entrepreneurs throughout Europe, including European overseas territories.
\n\nVictoria talks to Shaila about focusing on clean tech and climate tech solutions exclusively, goals of contributing to the acceleration of the process of decarbonization, and how the idea of a crowd-investing platform that targets only green tech is welcome from the fintech ecosystem and potential investors.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Shaila Sahai, Founder of We Take Part, an investment crowdfunding platform that connects eco-conscious investors and green tech entrepreneurs throughout Europe, including European overseas territories. Shaila, thank you for joining me.
\n\nSHAILA: Thank you for having me.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, can you start off just telling me a little bit more about We Take Part?
\n\nSHAILA: We Take part is a crowdinvesting platform based in France. We will be connecting eco-conscious investors, who could be individuals but also institutions, with startups from the green tech ecosystem in France and in Europe. We're going to use projects such as equities. It could be also bonds, green bonds. So basically, it will be investing in a company in exchange of shares in those startups.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. And you have a background in financial services. What led you to get the idea to start this platform?
\n\nSHAILA: Yes. So I come from the financial services world professionally, so I worked in equity services. So basically, my job was to make sure that trades were correctly made and settled in the stock exchange markets. Then I also went to work in the financial management corporate side in banking. I had, after some years, a global vision of finance management that led me to after some time, I quit my job and started working for myself as a financial management consultant. So basically, it was financial consulting.
\n\nAnd after some time, I specialized in working with small companies and startups, helping them in financial optimization and also in financial development strategies. And I wanted to do more for those companies after some time, so more than consulting and helping them internally. I wanted to develop tools for them to find more financing solutions than just going to a bank asking for a loan, for example. Most of the time, I could see them feeling blocked when they could not, for example, get a loan from the bank. That led me to develop a crowdfunding solution for them to help them.
\n\nAlso, the fact that we chose to target only green tech startups comes from a personal conviction of mine that we should really focus on and prioritize climate change solutions right now. And we should, as a society but also in the economy, focus on sustainable solutions to help and contribute actively to the decarbonization of the economy in general.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. And can you give me an example of a type of green tech that is being crowdfunded, or you want to be crowdfunded on this platform fund?
\n\nSHAILA: We want to focus on clean tech and climate tech solutions exclusively. A lot of competitors and investors right now focus on renewable energy, and, of course, this is a very important problem. We want to give access to other startups that develop solutions to clean, for example, the atmosphere or oceans and also the earth for agriculture matters. We want to give them access to investments too. Also, to include people in the investment process because the subjects such as, for example, agriculture, or transportation, construction solutions also are a priority, and they really interest people directly.
\n\nSome matters, such as renewable energy some people understand those matters, but most of them don't feel really connected to those problems because they seem like far from their daily preoccupations. So we want to focus on solutions that will directly help people in their...affect and impact people in their daily solutions.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. So not only are you democratizing this investment into green energy and green tech, but you're also expanding the idea of what does that mean? What types of projects are we doing besides just alternative fuels, right?
\n\nSHAILA: Exactly. It is true that fossil fuels and all those high carbon emissions energy industries represent three-quarters of the carbon emissions globally. There still is one quarter that we need to transform that needs to be totally, yes, changed. So we need to go further than that, and we need to take part. And that's also the reason for the name of the company. We need to take part in the whole action change plan.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And I think about that when I've talked to my friends about climate change and how it affects people and the fact that it is already affecting people. And that certain neighborhoods and certain communities are taking a disproportionate share of the impact of climate change.
\n\nSHAILA: Absolutely. I personally come from an island. So I'm from the Caribbean, from an island called Guadeloupe. It's a French territory. In the Caribbean, for example, or South America as we know, as we see in the media, the consequences of global warming and fossil industries are extremely visible, and the impacts are huge. The landscape, for example, is changing dramatically. The air pollution is awful. Forests are disappearing. So those are very visible effects.
\n\nThat's also a reason why it was important for us to include green tech solutions from those places because a lot of innovators are from there because they live with the direct consequences. They innovate in those areas. But those territories, unfortunately, are mostly forgotten, even by big countries, so that's also a reason why someone has to get interested in them.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. I could imagine that it's difficult to find capital if you're from that area and you're solving a problem that's not one of the big ones, [laughs], right?
\n\nSHAILA: Exactly.
\n\nVICTORIA: Are the projects that you're looking to crowdfund; do they tend to be small? Are they large? Or what's the size of the projects that they're looking for?
\n\nSHAILA: So exactly for that reason of accessibility, we decided to first of all, from an investor point of view, we decided to make the investment ticket to set it to €100. But also from a company in funding needs, we decided to also set the minimum funding amount to €50,000. So that means that we really want to support early-stage companies which are not necessarily attractive to big investors or banks, which are not profitable yet but still have good potential of development to support their solution because most of them really deserve to be supported and need to get their product out.
\n\nObviously, the aim of our company, of our solution is to make profit and also to lead investors to make profitable investments. So we will have, of course, financial criterias before selecting startups getting into our funding process. But the main focus will be to give them access to investments that would not be attractive, very attractive to big investors or banks.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And you just founded this back in April, and you're at pre-seed stage. How are you feeling? [laughs]
\n\nSHAILA: Well, I feel overwhelmed [laughs] because there's a lot of, you know, this is a good thing that this area of operations is very regulated. That comes with a lot of paperwork. So I have to go through this right now before really launching publicly the activities. But, in the meantime, I feel very excited because I am personally motivated.
\n\nThe aim is bigger than making profits. The aim is to contribute to the acceleration of the whole process of decarbonization. It's also to give more sense, more meaning to investment in general but also to give access to new people to investment. And by that, I mean people who are climate-conscious, people who want to make a change, to see direct changes in their environments because I know that the cause is greater than me. I'm very excited as well as exhausted.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs] That's good. I think you'll need that passion to keep you going. Have you had anyone tell you that you should consider a nonprofit, and why have you decided to make it for-profit?
\n\nSHAILA: No, so no one has told me this [laughter] yet. I guess that's because of my background. I come from finance. My partners or people that I meet because of this project know that I eventually know what I'm doing. They are not suggesting nonprofit. Also, I truly believe in making good business. I think that this is possible, and I want to be part of those people who make it possible.
\n\nFor a long time, prosperity, economic prosperity was a synonym for just aggressive business and huge industries, globalization, et cetera. And now, because of the climate emergency, we understand that something needs to be done. But I think that globally, the system is still scared of making a radical change because of profits reasons. Profit can be made while making a sustainable business. So I wouldn't even consider a nonprofit because we need to change the narrative. I think doing good is not going to mean doing things like being idealistic or following just a dream. We need to make it a reality.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And when you're in a for-profit business with a meaningful impact, you can focus on making the business work versus trying to find donors or trying to always prove how much you're giving back to the community. It'll make good business sense, and I really like that's the path that you're taking.
\n\nSHAILA: Exactly.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. What has your process been for validating this idea? Do you interview lots of different people? How do you know that it's the right market fit?
\n\nSHAILA: In the last years, I have seen the whole narrative change. That is what I was talking about in the way business needs to be made. When I was working in banking, I have seen those new standards, ESG standards coming, appearing. I also know that this is going to be a norm very soon. That means that the way we do business is really going to change like in reality in corporate practices.
\n\nSo, first of all, this is the right path because literally corporate practices are going to change and are going to align more and more with ESG criterias. Very soon, it will not be possible at all to continue to operate business without sustainable practices, obviously the way the large groups are going to change and are changing already. And small businesses are going to be built with ESG standards in mind too.
\n\nAnother part of the change is coming from the solutions. Are they sustainable? Are they energy efficient? Are they contributing to decarbonization, or are they polluting more? Is it possible to fund them because of that? So I think there is a whole transformation of the economy, and we need to be ready to follow up with the change. And we all need to be ready to fund this economy, not only governments but also private and small private institutions, individuals.
\n\nAlso, the green tech ecosystem, in general, is just exploding. This is a fact. For example, in France in 2020, we had a number of 800 green tech startups in France. In 2021, those startups increased, and the number of startups increased. And we could count 1,800 startups just one year after. This ecosystem also is growing massively, and the market is there.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's really exciting. And what is the startup community in Paris like?
\n\nSHAILA: Well, the startup community is very active in Paris. France is a huge generator of startups. As you may know, Station F is the biggest incubator in the world. It is a very dynamic ecosystem. Innovations are appearing every day. And France supports the startups a lot. Yes, it's very dynamic.
\n\nA lot of things are being made, and it's an ecosystem where we know each other. We meet each other, and we know what needs to be done. We talk with each other, especially at Station F, where I am not located, but still, a lot of meetups are there, a lot of events are going on there. So this is a place for startup founders to meet and talk. So we know that a lot of things are going to happen.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's very exciting.
\n\nSHAILA: Yes, it is really, very encouraging.
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\n\nVICTORIA: Have you found a lot of people get your idea right away? Do you feel people are excited about your product when you talk to them about it?
\n\nSHAILA: Yes, that was very, very surprising to me. Everybody I talked to was getting the idea very quickly. I haven't met any reservation from people around me or from partners, from people I was approaching business-wise. Well, I think the climate emergency is such that people get the idea immediately. Also, fundings, for now, are not enough for the green tech ecosystem. So the idea of a crowdinvesting platform that targets only green tech is really welcome from the ecosystem, the fintech ecosystem, but also from potential investors too.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. It must make you feel validated that you know you're on the right path. [laughs]
\n\nSHAILA: Yes, this is very helpful to me, yes.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. And what's next on your roadmap? What's the biggest challenge you see ahead of you?
\n\nSHAILA: So, yes, the next step for us, once we receive all the green lights to operate on the French and European market, will be to build our investors community. For now, we are waiting for this green light from the financial authorities to start publishing and communicating at a large scale to the public about what we are going to do. So our next challenge is really to reach out to people to convince them to join us and also to make sustainable investment understandable and accessible to first-time investors.
\n\nVICTORIA: Do you feel like you have the tools to do that? What do you think is going to be difficult about that process?
\n\nSHAILA: On that part, I think the most difficult part will be a traditional aspect of the business, which is competition. The thing is we need, in this particular area, we need currently to face two problems. The first one is the greenwashing problem that a lot of companies use, and we are not aligned with those greenwashing practices, and this could be confusing for people. Because the truth is as much as the climate change emergency is real, there is also a trend of offering all types of green services and products, so this could be confusing for consumers, for people.
\n\nThe first challenge will be to differentiate and really to make people understand that sustainability is in our core values, but it's also our why that this is the reason why we're doing this. This is not a greenwashing opportunity for us. Also, yes, in this competition matter, the other thing is that we are not going to focus only on renewable energy. So there is some type of education we need to provide about our products, about the meaning of the solutions, and the impacts of the solutions we're going to finance, even when they are not renewable energy related.
\n\nVICTORIA: Those sound like exciting challenges to work on. [laughs]
\n\nSHAILA: Yes, really.
\n\nVICTORIA: Once all the paperwork is finished.
\n\nSHAILA: Exactly. So this will be basically marketing, marketing, and communication issues.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. Why crowdfunding versus regular government funding for these types of projects?
\n\nSHAILA: It is important to enhance alternative financing solutions because the reality is that most businesses in their early stage will not be financially strong enough to ask for financing solutions such as bank loans, for example. That means that they don't have enough capital at first to engage in more debts. What they need is to reinforce their capital in an early stage.
\n\nWhen the founders, for example, do not have basically the money themselves to fund their own company, calling the crowd to help is a very good solution to reinforce their capital. So they have more power after that to go for other types of financing solutions such as fundraising huge amounts from investors, from institutions, or to ask for, for example, bank loans. They are strong enough then to go for more and to develop their solutions and scale up.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. And I'm wondering if, in your process, since April, have there been any pivots you had to make where you were going in one direction, and then you learned something and decided you needed to go a completely different direction?
\n\nSHAILA: Yes, to be honest, my first idea was to target startups from the European overseas territories only. So that was my first idea. When I did my market study, I discovered that the market was too small. It was a very interesting market because those startups are far from the countries they are related to. French Caribbean islands are geographically far from the French territory, French country in Europe. They have some localization barrier, for example, to reach the national market. And that is the case for any other overseas European territory.
\n\nSo my first idea was to give them access and give them visibility in the national territory because crowdfunding is an online solution, but, well, the market was too small, for example. So this was not a good path to go. And I had to reevaluate and do another market study because also my main goal was to answer an environmental need.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. And it is interesting how your idea of the market evolves once you really start building something and start getting information about it.
\n\nSHAILA: I can give you another example of a switch of the idea, of the initial idea I had. We wanted to start operating immediately in all Europe. We learned that because of the European regulations of the markets, we need to go step by step and country by country. This made us focus first on the French market. And we know now that we will be able to reach the other European ecosystems one by one. That helped us refine our marketing strategy.
\n\nVICTORIA: Interesting. So when you started building your product or building the idea, and you went country by country, was there a concern about getting too specific to that country? Or was it easy to build out to a new country once you were ready to move on?
\n\nSHAILA: It's quite easy in the conceptual stage because the European Union has really standardized a lot of economic or financial regulations. So we have a system of like an economic or business passport which makes it quite easy. But the main problem is really being able to adapt to different languages, Spanish, or German, or English, or Italian, to adapt to those markets with their specificities, which are linked not only to their language but those still are marketing aspects. But other than that, thanks to the European Union system, it is quite easy to really build a whole European strategy.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. I feel like that should be a part of an ad or marketing [laughter] just for the European Union.
\n\nSHAILA: It could be. It could be, right.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, that makes a lot of sense. And we understand as well, being an international company, that being able to adapt to different languages does present its own challenges.
\n\nSHAILA: Exactly.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, wonderful. What advice would you give to yourself at the beginning of this project if you could go back in time?
\n\nSHAILA: You know, it's funny because I have been familiar to business for a long time. I come from a businessmen family. And also, I've been working as a financial management consultant for small companies and startups for some years before. But still, I didn't maybe gather enough money at first to start this very capital-consuming business. So I would advise myself to gather twice the money I had before. [chuckles] Even if we found solutions and we are totally equipped, but well, I was maybe...I didn't prepare enough capital at first.
\n\nAnd also another advice would have been from the start to not forget to sleep [laughs] because this is really crucial to maintain good health when you start a new project, and especially a very energy-consuming one. The health of your project and of your company also depends on your own health.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful advice. [laughs] Everyone who's working on something they're passionate about should remember that. You're 100% right. It's dependent on your own health first, right?
\n\nSHAILA: Exactly. It could be the passion drives you so much that...and you know the amount of work you effectively have to do, so you can really get caught in the amount of work. But sleep is a very good strategy to keep going.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love sleep. I'm a big fan. My sleep schedule is a little messed up because I was in the Azores last week.
\n\nSHAILA: So the jetlag was big.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, but it helps me because we're kind of an early riser family anyways. Yeah, I can have time to have my coffee before I start work. [laughs]
\n\nSHAILA: Right. I see, yeah.
\n\nVICTORIA: Is there any other final takeaways you want to give to our audience?
\n\nSHAILA: I would ask the people who listen to really join us as soon as we are ready to launch and to talk about We Take Part to their friends and family. Also, to reach out because we could help understand more what we can do, how we can help, and how investing and supporting sustainable business how important it is. And when it's correctly made, and it is profitable, it is profitable for everyone, for the whole society, not only for an economic system.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. And we'll have the opportunity to include any links or marketing in our show notes.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thought. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Sponsored By:
Laura Maguire is a Researcher at Jeli.io, the first dedicated incident analysis platform that combines more comprehensive data to deliver more proactive solutions and identify problems.
\n\nVictoria talks to Laura about incident management, giving companies a powerful tool to learn from their incidents, and what types of customers are ideal for taking on a platform like Jeli.io.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Laura Maguire, Researcher at Jeli, the first dedicated instant analysis platform that combines more comprehensive data to deliver more proactive solutions and identify problems. Laura, thank you for joining me.
\n\nLAURA: Thanks for having me, Victoria.
\n\nVICTORIA: This might be a very introductory level question but just right off the bat, what is an incident?
\n\nLAURA: What we find is a lot of companies define this very differently across the space, but typically, it's where they are seeing an impact, either a customer impact or a degradation of their service. This can be either formally, it kind of impacts their SLOs or their SLAs, or informally it's something that someone on the team notices or someone, you know, one of their users notice as being degraded performance or something not working as intended.
\n\nVICTORIA: Gotcha. From my background being in IT operations, I'm familiar with incidents, and it's been a practice in IT for a long time. But what brought you to be a part of building this platform and creating a product around incidents?
\n\nLAURA: I am a, let's say, recovering safety professional.
\n\nVICTORIA: [chuckles]
\n\nLAURA: I started my career in the safety and risk management realm within natural resource industries in the physical world. And so I worked with people who were at the sharp end in high-risk, high-consequence type work. And they were really navigating risk and navigating safety in the real world. And as I was working in this domain, I noticed that there was a delta between what was being said, created safety, and helped risk management and what I was actually seeing with the people that I was working with on the front lines.
\n\nAnd so I started to pull the thread on this, and I thought, is work as done really the same as work as written or work as prescribed? And what I found was a whole field of research, a whole field of practice around thinking about safety and risk management in the world of cognitive work. And so this is how people think about risk, how they manage risk, and how do they interpret change and events in the world around them.
\n\nAnd so as I started to do my master's degree in human factors and system safety and then later my Ph.D. in cognitive systems engineering, I realized that whether you are on the frontlines of a wildland fire or you're on the frontlines of responding to an incident in the software realm, the ways in which people detect, diagnose, and repair the issues that they're facing are quite similar in terms of the cognitive work.
\n\nAnd so when I was starting my Ph.D. work, I was working with Dr. David Woods at the Cognitive Systems Engineering Lab at The Ohio State University. And I came into it, and I was thinking I'm going to work with astronauts, or with fighter pilots, or emergency room doctors, these really exciting domains. And he was like, "We're going to have you work with software engineers."
\n\nAnd at first, I really failed to see the connection there, but as I started to learn more about site reliability engineering, about DevOps, about the continuous deployment, continuous integration world, I realized software engineers are really at the forefront of managing critical digital infrastructure. They're keeping up the systems that run society, both for recreation and pleasure in the sense of Netflix, for example, as well as the critical functions within society like our 911 call routing systems, our financial markets.
\n\nAnd so the ability to study how software engineers detect outages, manage outages, and work together collaboratively across the team was really giving us a way to study this kind of work that could actually feed back into other types of domains like emergency response, like emergency rooms, and even back to the fighter pilots and astronauts.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow, that's so interesting. And so is your research that went into your Ph.D. did that help you help define the product strategy and kind of market fit for what you've been building at Jeli?
\n\nLAURA: Yeah, absolutely. So Nora Jones, who is the founder and CEO of Jeli, reached out to me at a conference and told me a little bit about what she was thinking about, about how she wanted to support software engineers using a lot of this literature and a lot of the learnings from these other domains to build this product to help support incident management in software engineering.
\n\nSo we base a lot of our thinking around how to help support this cognitive work and how to help resilient performance in these very dynamic, these very changing large scale, you know, distributed software systems on this research, as well as the research that we do with our own users and with our own members from learning from incidents in software engineering Slack community that Nora and several other fairly prominent names within the software community started, Lorin Hochstein, John Allspaw Dr. Richard Cook, Jessica DeVita, Ryan Kitchens, and I may be missing someone else but...and myself, oh, Will Galego as well.
\n\nYeah, we based a lot of our understandings, really deep qualitative understandings of what is work like for software engineers when they're, you know, in continuous deployment type environments. And we've translated this into building a product that we think helps but not hinders by getting in the way of engineers while they're under time pressure and there's a lot of uncertainty. And there's often quite a bit of stress involved with responding to incidents.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And you mentioned resilience engineering. And for those who don't know, David Woods, who you worked on with your Ph.D., wrote "Resilience Engineering: Concepts and Precepts." So maybe you could talk a little bit about resilience engineering and what that really means, not just in technology but in the people who were running the tools, right?
\n\nLAURA: Yeah. So resilience engineering is different from how we think about protecting and defending our software systems. And it's different in the sense that we aren't just thinking about how do we prevent incidents from happening again, like, how do we fix things that have happened to us in the past? But how do we better understand the ways in which our systems operate under a wide variety of conditions? So that includes normal operating conditions as well as abnormal or anomalous operating conditions, such as an incident response.
\n\nAnd so resilience engineering was kind of this way of thinking differently about predicting failure, about managing failure, and navigating these kinds of worlds. And one of the fundamental differences about it is it sees people as being the most adaptive component within the system of work. So we can have really good processes and practices around deploying code; we can institute things like cross-checking and peer review of code; we can have really good robust backup and failover systems, but ultimately, it's very likely that in these kinds of complex and adaptive always-changing systems that you're going to encounter problems that you weren't able to anticipate.
\n\nAnd so this is where the resilience part comes in because if you're faced with a novel problem, if you're faced with an issue you've never seen before, or a hidden dependency within your system, or an unanticipated failure mode, you have to adapt. You have to be able to take all of the information that's available to you in the moment. You have to interpret that in real-time. You have to think of who else might have skills, knowledge, expertise, access to information, or access to certain kinds of systems or software components. And you have to bring all of those people together in real-time to be able to manage the problem at hand.
\n\nAnd so this is really quite a different way of thinking about supporting this work than just let's keep the runbooks updated, and let's make sure that we can write prescriptive processes for everything that we're going to encounter. Because this really is the difference that I saw when I was talking about earlier about that work is done versus work is prescribed. The rules don't cover all of the situations. And so you have to think of how do you help people adapt? How do you help people access information in real-time to be able to handle unforeseen failures?
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. That makes a lot of sense. It's an interesting evolution of site reliability engineering where you're thinking about the users' experience of your site. It's also thinking about the people who are running your site and what their experience is, and what freedom they have to be able to solve the problems that you wouldn't be able to predict, right?
\n\nLAURA: Yeah, it's a really good point, actually, because there is sort of this double layer in the product that we are building. So, as you mentioned earlier, we are an incident analysis platform, and so what does that mean? Well, it means that we pull in data whenever there's been an incident, and we help you to look at it a little bit more deeply than you may if you're just following a template and sort of reconstructing a timeline.
\n\nAnd so we pull in the actual Slack data that, you know, say, an ops channel or an incident channel that's been spun up following a report of a degraded performance or of an outage. And we look very closely at how did people talk to one another? Who did they bring into the incident? What kinds of things did they think were relevant and important at different points in time? And in doing this, it helps us to understand what information was available to people at different points in time.
\n\nBecause after the incident and after it's been resolved, people often look back and say, "Oh, there's nothing we can learn from that. We figured out what it was." But if we go back and we start looking at how people detected it, how they diagnosed it, who they brought into the event, we can start to unpack these patterns and these ways of understanding how do people work together? What information is useful at different points in time? Which helps us get a deeper understanding of how our systems actually work and how they actually fail.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And I see there are a few different ways the platform does that: there's a narrative builder, a people view, and also a visual timeline. So, do you find that combining all those things together really gives companies a powerful tool to learn from their incidents?
\n\nLAURA: Yeah. So let me talk a little bit about each of those different components. Our MVP of the product we started out with this understanding of the incident analyst and the incident investigator who, you know, was ready to dive in and ready to understand their incident and apply some qualitative analysis techniques to thinking about their incidents. And what we found was there are a number of these people who are really interested in this deep dive within the software industry. But there's a broader subset of folks that they work with who maybe only do these kinds of incident analysis every once in a while, and they're not as interested in going quite as deep.
\n\nAnd so the narrative builder is really this kind of bridge between those two types of users. And what it does is helps construct a timeline which is typically what most companies do to help drive the discussion that they might have in a post-mortem or to drive their kind of findings in their summary report. And it helps them take this closer look at the interactions that happened in that slack transcript and raise questions about what kinds of uncertainties there were, point out who was involved, or interesting aspects of the event at that point in time.
\n\nAnd it helps them to summarize what was happening. What did people think was happening at this point in time to create this story about the incident? And the story element is really important because we all learn from stories. It helps bring to life some of the details about what was hard, who was involved, how did they get brought in, what the sources of technical failure were, and whether those were easy or difficult to understand and to repair once the source of the failure was actually understood. And so that narrative builder helps reconstruct this timeline in a much richer way but also do it very efficiently.
\n\nAnd as you mentioned, the visual timeline is something that we've created to help that lightweight user or that every once in a while user to go a little bit deeper on their analysis. And how we do that is because it lays out the progression of the event in a way that helps you see, oh, this maybe wasn't straightforward. We didn't detect it in the beginning, and then diagnose it, and then repair it at the end. What happened actually was the detection was intermittent. The signals about what was going wrong was intermittent, and so that was going on in parallel with the diagnosis. The diagnosis took a really long time, and that may have been because we can also see the repair was happening concurrently.
\n\nAnd so it starts to show these kinds of characteristics about whether the incident was difficult, whether it was challenging and hard, or whether it was simple and straightforward. This helps lend a bit more depth to metrics like MTTR and TTD by saying, oh, there was a lot more going on in this incident than we initially thought.
\n\nThe last thing that you mentioned was the people view, and so that really sets our product apart from other products in that we look at the sociotechnical system. So it's not just about the software that broke; it is about who was involved in managing that system, in repairing that system, and in communicating about that system outwardly. And so the people view this kind of pulls in some HR data. It helps us to understand who was involved. How long have they been in their role? Were they on-call? Were they not on-call? And other kinds of irrelevant details that show us what was their engagement or their interaction with this event.
\n\nAnd so when we start to bring in the socio part of the sociotechnical system, we can identify things like what knowledge do we have within the organization? Is that knowledge well-distributed, or is it just isolated in one or two people? And so those people are constantly getting pulled into incidents when they may be not on-call, which can start to show us whether or not these folks are in danger of burning out or whether their knowledge might need to be transferred more broadly throughout the organization.
\n\nSo this is kind of where the resilience piece comes in because it helps us to distribute knowledge. It helps us to identify who is relevant and useful and how do they partner and collaborate with other people, and their knowledge and skill sets to be able to manage some of the outages that they face?
\n\nVICTORIA: That's wonderful because one of my follow-up questions would be, as a CEO, as a founder, what kind of insights or choices do you get to make now that you have this insight to help make your team more resilient? [laughs]
\n\nLAURA: So if this is a manager, or a founder, or a CEO that is looking at their data in Jeli, they can start to understand how to resource their teams more appropriately, as I mentioned, how to spread that knowledge around. They can start to see what parts of their system are creating the most problems or what parts of their system do they have maybe less insight into how it works, how it interacts with other parts of the system, and what this actually means for their ability to meet their SLOs or their SLAs. So it gives you a more in-depth understanding of how your business is actually operating on both the technical side of things, as well as on the people side of things.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for that overview of the platform. There's the incident analysis platform, and you also have the bot, the response chatbot. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
\n\nLAURA: Yeah, absolutely. We think that incident management should be conducted wherever your work actually takes place, and so for most of our customers and a lot of folks that we know about in the industry, that's Slack. And so, if you are communicating in real-time with your team in Slack, we think that you should stay there.
\n\nAnd so, we built this incident management bot that is free and will be free for the lifetime of the product. Because we think that this is really the fundamental basis for helping you manage your incidents more efficiently and more effectively. So it's a pretty lightweight bot. It gives kind of some guardrails or some guidance around collaboration by spinning up a new incident channel, helping you to bring the right kinds of responders into that, helping you to communicate to interested stakeholders by broadcasting to channels they might be in.
\n\nIt kind of nudges you to think about how to communicate about what's happening during different stages of the event progression. And so it's prompting you in a very lightweight way; hey, do you have a status update? Do you have a summary of what the current thinking is? What are the hypotheses about what's going on? Who's conducting what kinds of activities right now? So that if I'm a responder that's coming into the event after 20-30 minutes after it started, I can very quickly come up to speed, understand what's going on, who's doing what, and figure out what's useful for me to do to help step in and not disrupt the incident management that's underway right now.
\n\nOur users can choose to use the bot independently of the incident analysis platform. But of course, being able to ingest that incident into Jeli it helps you understand who's been involved in the incident, if they've been involved in similar incidents in the past, and helps them start to see some patterns and some themes that emerge over time when you start to look at incidents across the organization.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. And I love that it's free and that there's something for every type of organization to take advantage of there. And I wonder if at Jeli you have data about what type of customer is it who'd be targeted or really ideal to take on this kind of platform.
\n\nLAURA: So most organizations...I was actually recently at SREcon EMEA, and there was a really interesting series of talks; one was SRE for Enterprise, and the next talk was SRE for Startups. And so it was a very thought-provoking discussion around is SRE for everyone, so site reliability engineering? Even smaller teams are starting to have to be responsible for reliability and responsible for running their service.
\n\nAnd so we kind of have built our platform thinking about how do we help not just big enterprises or organizations that may have dedicated teams for this but also small startups to learn from their incidents. So internally, we actually call incidents opportunities as in they are learning opportunities for checking out how does your system actually work? How do your people work together? What things were difficult and challenging about the incident? And how do you talk about those things as a team to help create more resilient performance in future?
\n\nSo in terms of an ideal customer, it's really folks that are interested in conducting these sort of lightweight but in-depth looks at how their system actually works on both the people side of things and the technical side of things. Those who we found are most successful with our product are interested in not so much figuring out who did the thing and who can they blame for the incident itself but rather how do they learn from what happened?
\n\nAnd would another engineer, or another product owner, another customer service representative, whoever the incident may be sort of focused around, would another person in their shoes have taken the same actions that they took or made the same decisions that they made? Which helps us understand from a systems level how do we repair or how do we adjust the system of work surrounding folks so that they are better supported when they're faced with uncertainty, or with that kind of time pressure, or that ambiguity about what's actually going on?
\n\nVICTORIA: And I love that you said that because part of the reason [laughs] I invited you on to the podcast is that a lot of companies I have experience with don't think about incidents until it happens to them, and then it can be a scramble. It can impact their customer base. It can stress their team out. But if you go about creating...the term obviously you all use is psychological safety on your team, and maybe you use some of the free tools from Jeli like the Post-Incident Guide and the Incident Analysis 101 blog to set your team up for success from the beginning, then you can increase your customer loyalty and your team loyalty as well to the company. Is that your experience?
\n\nLAURA: Yeah, absolutely. So one thing that I have learned throughout my career, you know, starting way back in forestry and looking at safety and risk in that domain, was as soon as there is an accident or even a serious near miss, right away, everybody gets sweaty palms. Everybody is concerned about, uh-oh, am I going to get blamed for this? Am I going to get fired? Am I going to get publicly shamed for the decisions that I made when I was in this situation?
\n\nAnd what that response, that reaction does is it drives a lot of the communication and a lot of the understanding of the conditions that that person was in. It drives that underground. And it's important to allow people to talk about here's what I was seeing, here's what I was experiencing because, in these kinds of complex systems, information is not readily available to people. The signals are not always coming through loud and clear about what's going on or about what the appropriate actions to take are. Instead, it's messy; it's loud, it's noisy.
\n\nThere are usually multiple different demands on that person's attention and on their time, and they're often managing trade-offs: do I keep the system down so that I can gather more information about what's actually going on, or do I just try and bring it up as quickly as I can so that there's less impact to users? Those kinds of decisions are having to be made under pressure. So when we create these conditions of psychological safety, when we say you know what? This happened. We want to learn from it. We've already made this investment.
\n\nRichard Cook mentioned in the very first SNAFU Catchers Report, which was a report that came out of Ohio State, that incidents are unplanned investments into understanding how your system works. And so you've already had the incident. You've already paid the price of that downtime or of that outage. So you might as well extract some learning from it so that you can help create a safer and more resilient system in the future.
\n\nSo by helping people to reconstruct what was actually happening in real-time, not what they were retrospectively saying, "Oh, I should have done this," well, you didn't do that. So let's understand why you thought at that moment in time that was the right way to respond because, more than likely, other people in that same position would have made that same choice. And so it helps us to think more broadly about ways that we can support decision-making and sense-making under conditions of stress and uncertainty. And ultimately, that helps your system be more resilient and be more reliable for your customers.
\n\nVICTORIA: What a great reframing: unplanned investment. [laughs] And if you don't learn from it, then you're going to lose out on what you've already invested that time in resolving it, right?
\n\nLAURA: Absolutely.
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\n\nVICTORIA: Getting more into that psychological safety and how to create that culture where people feel safe telling about what really happened, but how does that relate to...Jeli says that they are a people software. [laughs] Talk to me more about that. Like, what advice do you give founders and CEOs on how to create that psychological safety which makes them be more resilient in these types of incidents?
\n\nLAURA: So you mentioned the Howie Guide that we published last year, and this is our guidance around how to do incident analysis, how to help your team start to learn from their incidents, and Howie stands for how we got here. And that's really important, that language because what it says is there's a history that led up to this incident. And most teams, when they've had an outage, they'll kind of look backwards from that outage, maybe an hour, maybe a day, maybe to the last deploy.
\n\nBut they don't think about how the decisions got made to use that piece of software in the first place. They don't think about how did engineers actually get on-boarded to being on-call. They don't necessarily think about what kinds of skills, and knowledge, and expertise when we're hiring a DevOps engineer, and I'm using air quotes here or an SRE. What kinds of skills and knowledge do they actually have? Those are very broad terms. And what it means to be a DevOps engineer or an SRE is quite underspecified.
\n\nAnd so the knowledge behind the folks that you might hire into the company is going to necessarily be very diverse. It's going to be partial and incomplete in many ways because not everyone can know everything about the system. And so, we need to have multiple diverse perspectives about how the system works, how our customers use that system, what kinds of pressures and constraints exist within our company that allow us some possibilities over others. We need to bring all of those perspectives together to get a more reflective picture of what was actually happening before this incident took place and how we actually got here.
\n\nThis reframing helps a lot of people disarm that initial defensiveness response or that initial, oh, shoot; I'm going to get in trouble for this kind of response. And it says to them, "Hey, you're a part of this bigger system of work. You are only one piece of this puzzle. And what we want to try and do is understand what was happening within the company, not just what you did, what you said, and what you decided."
\n\nSo once people realize that you're not just trying to find fault or place blame, but you're really trying to understand their work, and you're trying to understand their work with other teams and other vendors, and trying to understand their work relative to the competing demands that were going on, so those are some of the things that help create psychological safety.
\n\nAbout ten years ago, John Allspaw and the team at Etsy put out The Etsy Debriefing Facilitation Guide, which also poses a number of questions and helps to frame the post-incident learnings in a way that moves it from the individual and looks more collectively at the company as a whole. And so these things are helpful for founders or for CEOs to help bring forward more information about what's really going on, more information about what are the real risks and threats and opportunities within the company, and gives you an opportunity to step back and do what we call microlearning, which is sharing knowledge about how the system works, sharing understandings of what people think is going on, and what people know about the system.
\n\nWe don't typically talk about those things unless there's a reason to, and incidents kind of give us that reason because they're uncomfortable and they can be painful. They can be very public. They can be very disruptive to what we think about how resilient and reliable we actually are. And so if you can kind of step away from this defensiveness and step away from this need to place blame and instead try and understand the conditions, you will get a lot more learning and a lot more resilience and reliability out of your teams and out of your systems.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense to me. And I'd like to draw a connection between that and some other things you mentioned with The 2022 Accelerate State of DevOps Report that highlights that the people who are often responding to those incidents or in that high-stress situation tend to be historically underrepresented or historically excluded groups. And so do you see that having this insight into both who is actually taking on a lot of the work when these incidents happen and creating that psychological safety can make a better environment for diversity, equity, inclusion at a company as well?
\n\nLAURA: Well, I think anytime you work to establish trust and transparency, and you focus on recognizing the skills that people do have, the knowledge that they do have, and not over assuming that someone knows something or that they have been involved in the discussions that may have been relevant to an incident, anytime you focus on that trust and transparency you are really signaling to people within your organization that you value their contributions and that you recognize that they've come to work and trying to do a good job. But they have multiple competing demands on their attention and on their time.
\n\nAnd so we're not making assumptions about people being complacent, or people being reckless or being sloppy in their work. So that creates an environment where people feel more willing to speak up and to talk about some of the challenges that they might face, to talk about the ways in which it's not clear to them how certain parts of the system work or how certain teams actually operate.
\n\nSo you're just opening the channels for communication, which helps to share more knowledge. It helps to share more information about what teams are doing at different points in time. And this helps people to preemptively anticipate how a change that they might be making in their part of the system could be influencing up or downstream teams. And so this helps create more resilience because now you're thinking laterally about your system and about your involvement across teams and across boundary lines.
\n\nAnd an example of this is if a marketing team...this is a story that Nora tells quite a bit; if a marketing team is, say, launching a Super Bowl commercial for their company but they don't actually tell the engineers on-call that that is about to happen, you can create all sorts of breakdowns when all of a sudden you have this surge of traffic to your website because people see the Super Bowl commercial and they want to go to the site. And then you have a single person who's trying to respond to that in real-time.
\n\nSo, instead, when you do start thinking about that trust and transparency, you're helping teams to help each other and to think more broadly about how their work is actually impacting other parts of the system. So from a diversity and inclusion and underrepresented groups perspective, this is creating the conditions for more people to be involved, more people to feel like their voice is going to be heard, and that their perspective actually matters.
\n\nVICTORIA: That sounds really powerful, and I'm glad we were able to touch on that. Shifting gears a little bit, I wanted to talk about two different questions; so one is if you could travel back in time to when Jeli first started, what advice would you give yourself, your past self?
\n\nLAURA: I would encourage myself to recognize that our ability to experiment is fundamental to our ability to learn. And learning is what helps us to iterate faster. Learning is what helps us to reflect on the tool that we're building or the feature that we're building and what this actually means to our users. I actually copped that advice to myself from CEO Zoran Perkov of the Long-Term Stock Exchange. They launched a whole new stock market during the pandemic with a fully remote team.
\n\nAnd I had interviewed him for an article that I wrote about resilient leadership. And he said to me, like, "My job as a CEO is 100% about protecting our ability to experiment as a company because if we stop learning, we're not going to be able to iterate. We're not going to be able to adapt to the changes that we see in the market and in our users." So I think I would tell myself to continually experiment.
\n\nOne of the things that I talk to our customers about a lot because many of them are implementing new incident management programs or they're trying to level up their engineering teams around incident analysis, and I would say, "This doesn't have to be a fully-fleshed out program where you know all of the ways in which this is going to unfold." It's really about trying experiments, conduct some training, start small. Do one incident analysis on a really particularly spicy incident that you may have had or a really challenging incident where a lot of people were surprised by what happened.
\n\nBring together that group and say, "Hey, we're going to try something a little bit different here. We'll use some questions from the Howie Guide. We'll use the format and the structure from the Etsy Debriefing Guide. And we're just going to try and learn what we can about this event. We're not going to try and place blame. We're not going to try and generate corrective actions. We just want to see what we can learn from this." Then ask people that were involved, "How did this go? What did we learn from it? What should we do differently next time?"
\n\nAnd continually iterate on those small, little experiments so that you can grow your product and grow your team's capacity. I think it took us a little bit of time to figure that out within the organization, but once we did, we were just able to collaborate more effectively work more effectively by integrating some of the feedback that we were getting from our users.
\n\nAnd then the last piece of advice that I would give myself is to really invest in cross-discipline coordination and collaboration. Engineers, designers, researchers, CEOs they all have a different view of the product. They all have a different understanding of what the goals and priorities are. And those mental models of the product and of what the right thing to do is are constantly changing. And they all have different language that they use to talk about the product and to talk about their processes for integrating this understanding of the changing conditions and the changing user into the product.
\n\nAnd so I would say invest in establishing common ground across the different disciplines within your team to be able to talk about what people are seeing, to be able to stop and identify when we're making assumptions about what other people know or what other people's orientation towards the problem or towards the product are. And spend a little bit of time saying, "When I say this is important, I'm saying it's important because of XYZ, not just this is important." So spending a little bit of time elaborating on what your mental model is and where you're drawing from can help the teams work more effectively together across those disciplines.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's pretty powerful advice. You're iterating and experimenting at Jeli. What's on the horizon that you are...what new experiments are you excited about?
\n\nLAURA: One of the things that has been front and center for us since we started is this idea of cross-incident analysis. And so we've kind of built out a number of different features within the product, being able to help tag the incident with the relevant services and technologies that were involved, being able to identify which teams were involved, and also being able to identify different kinds of themes or patterns that emerge from individual incidents.
\n\nSo all of this data that we can get from mostly just from the ingested incident itself or from the incident that you bring into Jeli but also from the analysis that you do on it this helps us start to be able to see across incidents what's happening not just with the technical side of things. So is it always Travis that is causing a problem? Are there components that work together that kind of have these really hidden and strange interdependencies that are really hard for the team to actually cope with? What kinds of themes are emerging across your suite of opportunities, your suite of incidents that you've ingested?
\n\nSome of the things that we're starting to see from those experiments is an ability to look at where are your knowledge islands within your organization? Do you have an engineer who, if they were to leave, would take the majority of your systems knowledge about your database, or about your users, or about some critical aspect of your system that would disappear with all of that tacit knowledge? Or are there engineers that work really effectively together during really difficult incidents?
\n\nAnd so you can start to unpack what are these characteristics of these people, and of these teams, and of these technologies that offer both opportunities or threats to your organization? So basically, what we're doing is we're helping you to see how your system performs under different kinds of conditions, which I think as a safety and risk professional working in a variety of different domains for the last 15 years, I think this is really where the rubber hits the road in helping teams be more reliable, and be more resilient, and more proactive about where investments in maintenance, or training, or headcount are going to have the biggest bang for your buck.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. In my experience, sometimes those decisions are made more on intuition or on limited data so having a more full picture to rely on probably produces better results. [laughs]
\n\nLAURA: Yeah, and I think that we all want to be data-driven, thinking about not only the quantitative data is how many incidents do we have around certain parts of the system, or certain teams, or certain services? But also, the qualitative side of things is what does this actually mean? And what does this mean to our ability to grow and change over time and to scale? The partnership of that quantitative data and qualitative data means we're being data-driven on a whole other level.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. And it seems like we're getting close to the end of our time here. Is there anything else you want to give as a final takeaway to our listeners?
\n\nLAURA: Yeah. So I think that we are, you know, as a domain, as a field, software engineering is increasingly becoming responsible for not only critical infrastructure within society, but we have a responsibility to our users and to each other within our companies to help make work better, help make our services more reliable and more resilient over time.
\n\nAnd there's a variety of lessons that we can learn from other domains. As I mentioned before, aviation, healthcare, nuclear power all of those kinds of domains have been thinking about supporting cognitive work and supporting frontline operators. And we can learn from this history and this literature that exists out there.
\n\nThere is a GitHub repo that Lorin Hochstein has curated with a number of other folks with the industry that points to some of these resources. And as well, we'll be hosting the first Learning From Incidents in Software Engineering Conference in Denver in February, February 15 and 16th. And one feature of this conference that I'm super excited about is affectionately called CasesConf. And it is going to be an opportunity for software engineers from a variety of organizations to tell real stories about incidents that they had, how they handled them, what was challenging, what went surprisingly well, and just what is actually going on within their organizations.
\n\nAnd this is kind of a new thing for the software industry to be talking very publicly about failures and sharing the messy details of our incidents. This won't be a recorded part of the conference. It is going to be conducted under the Chatham House Rule, which is participants who are in the room while these stories are being told can share some of the stories but not any identifying details about the company or the engineers that were involved.
\n\nAnd so this kind of real-world situations helps us to, as I talked about before, with that psychological safety, helps us to say this is the reality of operating complex systems. They're going to fail. We're going to have to learn from them. And the more that we can talk at an industry level about what's going on and about what kinds of things are creating problems or opportunities for each other, the more we're going to be able to lift the bar for the industry as a whole. So you can check out register.learningfromincidents.io for more information about the conference. And we can link Lorin's resilience engineering GitHub repo in the notes as well.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. Well, I was looking for an excuse to come to Denver in February anyways.
\n\nLAURA: We would love to have ya.
\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you. And thank you so much for taking time to share with us today, Laura.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.
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Dr. Anne Latz is Co-Founder and Chief Medical Officer at Hello Inside, a company that specializes in scientific self-care.
\n\nWill talks to Dr. Latz about why glucose?, being a business-person first and what drove her to become a medical doctor, and where she sees wearable technology going in the in the next 5-10 years.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. And with us today is Dr. Anne Latz, Co-Founder and Chief Medical Officer at Hello Inside, a company that specializes in scientific self-care. Anne, thank you for joining us.
\n\nDR. LATZ: Thank you for hosting me today, Will.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I'm excited to talk about Hello Inside. And let's start there; give us a quick summary about Hello Inside.
\n\nDR. LATZ: So we are a German-Austrian startup, so we are based all over Europe, actually, all over the world, I have to say. And we help people by means of technology to understand their bodies best so to really become an expert of their bodies. And the technology we use is not only a smartphone app that shows data but a sensor that's called continuous glucose monitoring sensor that's like a little window you put on your arm that shows you in real-time your glucose data.
\n\nAnd we at Hello Inside have then an app and the service around that that really helps you to understand your data and become an expert of your body because this data really gives you immediate feedback on what you do in the sense of eating, moving, but also how well you slept, how stressed you are.
\n\nWILL: Wow, that's really neat. You said you had the continuous glucose monitor. The body is so complex, and there are so many ways that you probably could measure activity of the body. Why the glucose portion? Why are you doing glucose?
\n\nDR. LATZ: I think that there are two, maybe even three, reasons to that. The first one is we do not have so many tools like biosensors or technology on the market, which enable us to give really continuous data on different biofluids or markers in the body. So the first one is just that the market here is quite mature because we usually know glucose from the context of diabetes patients, and the technology has been developed years and years ago for those people. And that's why we have really, really good technology, really good sensors, which have high accuracy. The prices get lower and lower, so more and more people can really access this technology. And we just know already a lot about glucose management.
\n\nThe second is it's a super, super potent marker. So I'm a medical doctor from my background. And I do not know so many markers in the body; maybe it's the heart rate variability or pulse that give us really immediate feedback to so many lifestyle pillars. So I think eating is quite intuitive that it does something to our blood glucose, but also movement does, also sleep and stress. And all these pillars immediately affect us, and we often know that. But this marker really gives us a take on how we can really visualize in the moment and then create a change from that.
\n\nAnd the third is probably that it's just a really hot topic, the glucose monitoring, currently, and that's actually not a good thing. But we have really not only an obesity epidemic but really a metabolic health crisis. So a lot of people have problems with their glucose levels, not aware of it. A lot of people have, in general, problems with managing; yeah, I would say, their metabolism and have an energy crisis in their body. You could put it like that.
\n\nAnd that's why we are really interested in glucose because if you manage glucose in the sense that you stabilize it, you can really improve your health in the short term and how much energy you have, midterm in the sense of what your weight is, and of course, long term to prevent diseases like diabetes or heart disease.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, definitely. I think you're correct; you know, glucose is the one thing, especially for me, it's diabetes, and I know it in that direction. But also that after lunch drag that you hit, the wall that you hit whenever your glucose spikes and then it comes down and spikes, I mean, then crashes. I think that's the other direction people understand glucose from.
\n\nDR. LATZ: Yeah, for sure. I mean, you bring up a great example, like the food coma after lunch. Everybody knows that, like, this energy and fatigue in the afternoon. But, I mean, you seem to be a little bit familiar with the technology, but a lot of people do not even connect the dots. They cannot really bring together what they eat and their behavior, for example, at lunchtime, how it really impacts them hours later.
\n\nAnd what we love so much about the technology and what we can also use the Hello Inside servers a lot for is really to find out what you do, like, what you think is healthy often. A good example is a smoothie you drink that might spike your blood glucose, but you don't really understand it because you thought it was a healthy choice. So it gives me more nuance as to what is healthy for you because it's...and we didn't even stress that, but it's also highly personalized. So you and I would eat the same lunch, and we would react completely differently to it.
\n\nSo there's so much actionable data from it; that's what we love. And yeah, it's a little bit like running a lab test every few minutes of the day [chuckles] and give you the responses really on your smartphone to your hand and also some alternatives of how to create change there.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, definitely. And I'm glad you brought that up because one of the questions I had for you is, with Hello Inside, how do you see it combating the bad advice around self-care and dieting when you're getting great scientific data? It's kind of hard to argue with the data and the numbers.
\n\nDR. LATZ: For sure, yeah. I mean, we all know health, wellness, lifestyle. It all gets very close together, which has good sides and bad sides. But of course, people are still so confused in what is really good for them and their bodies. Because healthy, yeah, it's not a very specific term, especially in, let's stay with the example of food, what you put in, and different diet regimes you have. We see that there's so much frustration also in the market because all these one-size-fits-all recommendations in diet regimes or fasting regimes do not work for all people.
\n\nAnd that's really why these personalized approaches, and as you say, data-driven approaches, are so crucial because then you really get power back in trusting your body and understanding how your personal health and well-being is really influenced. At the same time, it's super hard because some of these trends and fad diets have existed for a long time and have a huge community who really love them. But we see it really as a conversation, like a conversation we have with the users, but also a conversation that users have with their bodies.
\n\nBecause we know that creating change, especially behavior change, is like the holy grail for all health and also weight management tools. But it's also something that just takes a little longer because you need some experimenting. You need to find out what really works for you. But I'm quite convinced that when you see the data that's based on your body, that's something that you do not forget. If you see the foods that really spike you, surprisingly, this is really powerful.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, definitely. And I can understand the benefit of it, especially, you know, you're working out two weeks, and your body really is not showing you any signs of change. But I can see how this could help in showing you the change, even if it's small, how you can say, hey, you're on the right track.
\n\nDR. LATZ: Exactly. Yeah, it's like these small nudges. I mean, it's a monitor that already shows you the shortcuts and the little tweaks you make. For a lot of people, I always say if you find one food, one spiking element in your day and change that for the rest of your life, that's so much. For a lot of people, it's already in the breakfast. They jump on the blood glucose rollercoaster in the morning because they eat maybe porridge without any added protein to it. So it is very carb heavy, and they think it's super healthy and drink the oat milk latte.
\n\nI mean, in general, there's nothing wrong with those foods, but you can combine them even better and add something to it and not really eliminate stuff but just add a nice mix of protein and fat to your carbs. And you will be so much fitter during the day. You will not have this huge spike putting you on the roller coaster in the morning. As we are very habitual people, I mean, people eat like 60 different foods per week, which is not a lot; once you find out what really works for you, that's super, super nice for the rest of your life.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, definitely. And to be honest, I have been guilty of, oh, I just ate a very healthy meal. And then I go back and look at the nutritional facts, and I was like, what did I just eat? Because this was not healthy.
\n\nDR. LATZ: Yeah, we should always learn and make mistakes and learn again. And it's like a jungle out there. I mean, health, in general, the healthcare market is quite complicated. And I think that doesn't only apply to Germany but definitely to where I'm based but also to the U.S. and all the different markets. And for food, it's the same; I mean, that's a little bit the enemy we all are trying to deal with because the food industry is so powerful. It has so much lobby. And you get so confusing information that this is really what we can use our tools now for to understand what really these, I would say, not always healthy but claimed healthy foods do to us.
\n\nWILL: So, I have a question around wearable technology. So the last couple of years, there's been a trend of wearable technologies, the Garmins, the Apple Watches. This takes it to the next level. This is way more accurate than any of the wearables. Do you see this as the future in the next 5 or 10 years?
\n\nDR. LATZ: Yeah, probably in the next 5 or 10 years, we will see even more to it in the sense of personalization. And also, I personally believe that we really have a toolbox here of different markers we use. Maybe some are still invasive, like the CGM you put on your arm that really measures the fluids invasively. But also, there will be an array of other things we can really include into our daily health checks.
\n\nBut this is definitely the next level of, as you said, Garmin and all these tracking tools because now we not only track data and have data, but we make them so actionable because we really put them into an immediate setting. So we can really calculate them now. I'm currently wearing my sensor, and I can have a look at my phone after we've finished recording and see, okay, what happened just now in my body? How did I respond to the setting? Was I super stressed? How is my lunch (because here it is early afternoon) affecting our body?
\n\nWe really had already the switch of not only measuring stuff but making it really approachable, actionable. And yeah, I think CGM will be one of the first tools where we can really make this approachable for the broad public; then, we will have a lot of different markers and sensors to look at. And in respect to glucose management, I really am looking forward to when we get the press announcement of some company that we can also non-invasively and continuously measure blood glucose, which is currently not feasible, and a lot of companies are working on it. So this would be very exciting in the next years.
\n\nWILL: That's exciting. And I love how complex the human body is.
\n\nDR. LATZ: Oh yeah.
\n\nWILL: Like you just said, "How stressed was I?" And you can get that from your glucose level.
\n\nDR. LATZ: Yeah, it's super complex, and it really takes the time to also figure out what...because just measuring data is not really exciting anymore. Then you have a lot of data, and then you're like, so what? So to really figure how interdependent these lifestyle pillars are of movement, sleep, food, et cetera, that really takes some time, but once you understand it, it makes so much sense.
\n\nFor example, stress is like this fight or flight response we've all heard about, and of course, you need energy for it. And that's why your blood glucose might go up because your body gives you energy to, for example, run away, [chuckles] or be alert. And then always breaking down to why our body does things always helps me to also make sense of the data.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing. Really amazing.
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\n\nWILL: So tell me what excites you about Hello Inside, the company.
\n\nDR. LATZ: I mean, we founded this company with a very clear vision that we really want to help people to become experts of their body and really learn their body's language because this is a quite messed up system. We do not really understand our bodies' signals in the daily life. For example, hunger or thirst, a lot of people cannot really tell what the body is talking to them, so we think it's a super emotional topic.
\n\nAnd especially the combination of these really approachable, emotional, real-life moments with newest tech is, I think, an amazing combination because we can reach people really where they are. We can give personalized insights of your personal body. This is also something that makes you so much more reliable and compliant in what you do. Then we can really display the data in a way that you can experientially learn from it.
\n\nTo give you an example, in our Hello Inside app, one of the favorite features of mine is the experiment feature, so you would have a food event. Let's make it super simple, eat an apple and feel your body in the next two or three hours. So that's usually when we take into account the response to that food. And then you compare that to one factor you change, so you eat the apple with some nuts or nut butter. I would suggest to most people, but of course, it's hyper individual, and what extent it changes in the blood glucose response just because you included the nuts, which include fat and protein.
\n\nYou can put these two graphs, these two blood glucose curves together, and you really see the gap between it just from including nuts in your diet. And this is this nice combination of visualization, data-driven insights, and also something where you, I mean, people love to take pictures of their food. And that's what you can usually do here.
\n\nWILL: Wow, that's amazing. You were talking about your story behind using Hello Inside, the CGM. Do you or any of your clients have any success stories that you would like to talk about?
\n\nDR. LATZ: Yeah, for sure. I mean, we are quite a young company. We launched only in June and are live now in seven European countries. And actually, I have some really, really cool stories. We launched with a very strong focus on women's health. So we have developed a program which is called Hello Hormones, which helps women along the cycle via the Hello Inside app. And this continuous glucose monitor really improves symptoms like PMS, which can be like bloating, pains, et cetera.
\n\nAnd a lot of women didn't really understand (And how would they?) that your body has a very variable response to foods depending on the menstrual cycle. To visualize that, a very simple example would be eat in the first half of your cycle, before your ovulation, a banana, and eat the banana in the second half of the cycle. And I can promise you; you will have a different response to it which is super physiological. It has to do with insulin sensitivity. But you cannot really make sense of that (You feel differently in the phases.) which you now can really do when you saw in the data, really compared it, that you have higher levels of blood glucose maybe in the second half.
\n\nAnd you can make small tweaks which help you then to really increase well-being also in the second phase of the cycle before you have your period, which can be by reducing inflammation by changing how you move during that time, et cetera. And this is what a lot of people, a lot of women, resonated with trying out the program. And then, of course, we have these super nice glucose hacks you might have heard about also, where some of my favorites are definitely also always connecting what you eat with movement, so moving your muscles after your meal.
\n\nAnd I would say daily, we have such a high blast of user-generated content because people try it out, try the hacks, and then share their blood glucose response with us on social media. And this is so crazy to see. Also, people who are really into their bodies say, "I have these aha moments all the time just because I now understood, okay, it makes sense to have this type of breakfast. It makes sense how I eat my carbs, in which order I eat my food."
\n\nWe have next to the social media content also some coaching sections we offer for our clients where we also hear a lot of those stories that they're really often so, so surprised and so happy that they finally made sense of their body signals.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, that's amazing. I'm a science geek; I'm just going to say it.
\n\nDR. LATZ: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: So I love how you can run your own scientific hypothesis and stuff. Like, you eat a banana at this time, how did it affect me? Okay, at this time, let me eat another banana. I just love that aspect because I don't think we have anything accurate enough right now that I know of besides actual drawing your blood in the lab or something like that that can actually give you that type of information.
\n\nDR. LATZ: Yeah, and especially if you take a lab just like once a month or once a quarter, then it's also really like a snapshot of the situation and might even have depended on how much did you drink? How was the night before? Like, what did you eat? And put some markers even there. And now you really have the ability to make it, yeah, it's a little bit more playful. Because of course, we recommend experiments you can make, start with an apple, eat the chocolate, do the pasta versus the rice.
\n\nBut then you can customize it because it doesn't make sense to do experiments and try stuff out that you would never do in your daily life. So we always recommend start from where you really are. Wear the sensor for two, three days, just observe, and then look at what you really think is the problem for you. For a lot of people, it's the afternoon fatigue. So what could be the labor here? Where can we make a small change?
\n\nAnd then you really, as you say, a little bit of research on your own body and experiment around and tweak here, tweak there and that's the nice part. Then you come to changes that you also stick with. This is what we have also seen on our team, which are like the early adopters, and we worked on it for over a year. We really see that we get better blood glucose response in the mornings. And we just changed a little bit what order we eat.
\n\nIf we go for ice cream, we just do a walk with the ice cream and all these small things which are really feasible and very, very contrary to what we also have in the diet culture, a lot of restrictive things. You cannot do that; you shouldn't do that. I always say it's very positive psychology; add that, combine it here, do some habits tweaking here. And you can really include that in your life further on.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing. Let's transition and talk about the starting of Hello Inside. What's the story? How did...because I think it's you and three other founders. How did y'all come about starting Hello Inside?
\n\nDR. LATZ: We are actually from very, very different backgrounds, but we have had some friends in common and some contacts, and, I mean, as I said, I'm a medical doctor. I have a digital health background. So I worked in digital health and other startups for over three years. My other co-founder is very much into the product and growth marketing. He was with Runtastic, which is now part of Adidas. So he has a sports lifestyle background and also expertise for the product.
\n\nThe other one is responsible for brand and community investor relations. He really built also his own companies before. And the fourth is the tech guy who also worked in a medical startup and had his own agencies. So really, as you see, different backgrounds but very nice combination because we bring a lot of skills together and combine them from very different angles, and yeah, this is also, I would say, our power, and of course, it's also at the same time a challenge because not everybody is familiar in the same depth with the topics.
\n\nBut I think that's often the point with diverse teams that you just have to communicate well to help the other people understand where you're coming from. We have to remind him to make research very understandable and really also explain that the tempo there sometimes is a little bit different, whereas I learn so, so much on what it means to build a product really at a high speed, to really iterate here and there.
\n\nSo when we met, of course, the idea was to do something really with impact, to do something in the healthcare space but not too far into med tech. And we're really, really focused on this preventative field. I mean, you always say there's no glory in prevention. Prevention is super unsexy [laughs] for the individual but also the society, and we really want to change that.
\n\nOf course, Hello Inside was not Hello Inside from the beginning on then we found the name. And we're super happy with the company name, with the case we can make with looking inside, et cetera. Yeah, we're very much looking forward to building an even bigger company in the next years.
\n\nWILL: That's amazing. Your background is the medical portion of it. And you have experience in patient care in private and public healthcare, so tell us more about that. Are you still practicing? And how did you get into becoming a medical doctor? What was that drive for you to become a medical doctor?
\n\nDR. LATZ: To be frank, I was a business person first. [chuckles]
\n\nWILL: Oh.
\n\nDR. LATZ: I did first business bachelor, but that was like, for me, ages ago; [laughs] it feels like it. And after I finished my bachelor's, I was like yeah, okay, I want to do something else and applied for medical school, which was never on my mind before. And that's how it all started. I also had the chance to do my master's in business at the same time. So I always was like very open to look left and right.
\n\nAnd then, I started working in patient care, just very classical, like in a university hospital in psychotherapy. And I loved it a lot. But also, I was missing something to bring in this more innovative, creative part of my interests. I had the chance in a startup to work at some time in the U.S. It's called AMBOSS. It's an ad-tech startup. That's where I came really in the startup field and understood from a very junior position more and more about what it means to build a company.
\n\nThen I worked, coming back to Germany, for the ministry actually a little bit in the field of public health and prevention for diabetes. So here you see also how it now very well fits with what we're doing now, but of course, I can only say that now looking back. And I got certified in nutritional lifestyle medicine. And this is also something that really fascinates me a lot, like how these pillars really affect our lives all day, every day. And we do not learn so much also medical school about it, and that's where I learned for myself that this is really why I want to double down on these topics.
\n\nAnd a little bit before the first pandemic wave started, I found my way into digital health for a startup, being one of the first employees there, and had two years then to really learn on the market, with the market what it means to create a digital health company, and did my postgraduate certificate in Harvard at that time. So I learned patient safety, quality, informatics, and leadership.
\n\nAnd all these puzzle pieces then really fit well together last year when I met my co-founders, and we really iterated the idea more to build a company that combines all that, like, digital health and health and prevention with also metabolic health and lifestyle medicine, and, of course, all the innovative things we didn't know that they exist before and we are now learning on the market with. So this is how it all happened to me, and looking back, it all makes sense. But of course, there were a lot of segues. There were a lot of decisions to make on that journey.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, which I'm glad you brought up the decisions. That was my next question. What have been some of the toughest times in the startup? And what have been some of the most exciting times in the startup?
\n\nDR. LATZ: Yeah, I mean, I would even broaden up a little bit because just this week, we will launch a book which is in German but will also be in English soon, which really is quite personal. I wrote it with two other doctors, which is called Beyond Bedside. You could translate it. So we are all medical doctors who left bedside and found some new pathways, and two of us also as entrepreneurs.
\n\nAnd we had a lot of those hard decisions to take. I think one of the biggest learnings is always...and I think that also applies well for the startups: what got you here won't get you there. So you need this willingness to unlearn. You need to really understand, okay, now I'm a medical doctor, and I learned a lot, but in the startup, I'm just one of many, and I need to learn from the others. And I need to be really, really humble about what I can and cannot do.
\n\nI think this is always a problem of running a company. You want to be speedy because that's why you're a startup, but you also, especially in the healthcare space, need to do everything properly. And you have to navigate between really having a high quality, having everything according to guidelines because you're always working with people. It's always something you really need to be responsible of. This is also something that we need a lot of patience for a lot of things.
\n\nBut yeah, in general, I would say we did quite a good job as we are a remote-first company. So it was during the pandemic that we founded the company. We have people all over the world working for us. I mean, that's not really specific for our company. But from what I know from colleagues as well, you just need to communicate, and communicate, and overcommunicate in different time zones to really make everybody really aware of the vision, the mission, repeat it again. And strategic decisions need to be clear to everyone.
\n\nSo we put a high effort also on building a nice company culture and working on our ideas together and also get some on-sites where everybody can meet up. And yeah, this is sometimes really hard when you're so in your daily struggle, and there's so much to do. But then we need to take a step back and really say, okay, we need to invest in building an even better team.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, definitely. Wow. Wow, wow, wow, that's amazing. You've done medical school. You've practiced, and you've founded. Those are hard. Let's just be honest; those are hard things that you have accomplished, so congratulations on that.
\n\nDR. LATZ: Thanks, Will.
\n\nWILL: What has been some of the best advice that you received to help you keep going when those things got hard?
\n\nDR. LATZ: Do not ask the people who are in the very classical fit for...let me give you an example; I would not ask my chief when I worked in a hospital if I should leave the hospital because people who have always done it like that they would never recommend you to drop out and do something new and be innovative, and maybe also a little bit braver. So maybe the good advice from it would be ask the right people, ask a lot of people.
\n\nAnd then, looking back, one thing I really learned myself is also it's really hard times you have, and sometimes it's really you're doubting yourself. You're really overwhelmed. There's a lot going on. Especially those times will be, looking back, the ones that can be your hero story. Those are the ones that make you an even better person in the sense of being a coach for others and also for yourself later on. So you really need those struggles to understand and carve out what really moves your heart and where you really want to be invested. And there's also, and this is probably also still hard for me, saying no to a lot of things.
\n\nWILL: Hmm, that's really good advice, yes. Especially because you have experience in so many different areas, you can quickly overwhelm yourself by saying, "Yes." So, wow, I really like that advice. So in closing, is there anything else that you would like to share with us or with the audience?
\n\nDR. LATZ: Maybe something that I observe, I mean, I don't know if it's in U.S. the same, but I could imagine it's like a trend that's going on. Everybody thinks he or she needs to be an entrepreneur, founder, like own something, be by yourself. It's just not for everyone. I think that's okay. And I think that it's great that it's not for everyone. We need all the diverse roles. We need all the diverse employees. And being something for the sake of just being it is not a good motivation.
\n\nI think that nobody should really try to force him or herself into a role just because he or she thinks it's cool. There are many things you can do in your life and that you really should trust your gut and be also really brutally honest to yourself. And, like, I just want to be really...now it sounds better to say, "I just want to be a doctor," that's great. We need doctors; we need teachers; we need employees. There are so many great jobs, and there are so many days where I wish exactly the same.
\n\nAt the same time, entrepreneurship gives you so much freedom of thinking. You learn so much on the job from other people, from your whole team. So there are many roads in crazy town. [laughs] There are many roads in the world. And this is really something we need to be aware of, this exactly, that it is really, really cool that we can do so many things and have really diverse roles in our society.
\n\nWILL: I love that advice because I 100% agree with you. Because I think there are people that are CEOs and they love to get out in front of people and talk and sell the company. But then you have a CFO or a CEO that's like, I just want to run the day-to-day, the books, or whatever that is, that's what I'm great at. So I love that advice.
\n\nDR. LATZ: Yeah, exactly.
\n\nWILL: Wow. Anne, it's been amazing talking to you about Hello Inside and just getting to know your company and you better. Thank you so much for being on the podcast today.
\n\nDR. LATZ: Thank you for your great questions, Will.
\n\nWILL: I appreciate it.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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Stacy Kehren Idema is the Founder and Managing Director of Global Collective, which is revolutionizing how men and women do business.
\n\nChad talks to Stacy about the work Global Collective does, starting a company based in the U.K, and the differences between doing business in the U.S. and the U.K.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Stacy Kehren Idema, the Founder and Managing Director of Global Collective, which is revolutionizing how men and women do business. Stacy, thank you for joining me.
\n\nSTACY: Chad, it is a pleasure. How are you today?
\n\nCHAD: I'm well. I'm well. [laughs] I wasn't going to bring it up, but since you asked, I feel like whenever someone asks that question, I feel like I need to give an honest answer.
\n\nSTACY: Of course.
\n\nCHAD: Because I think, so often, we don't answer honestly. We just sort of...so what's going on in my life right now is, unfortunately, even though we got our fourth boosters three weeks ago, my wife tested positive for COVID yesterday.
\n\nSTACY: Oh no.
\n\nCHAD: And so she feels fine. She feels mostly fine. But we have kids and everything, so it throws a huge wrench into life right now. We're very fortunate that we've got vaccines, and it'll be mild and everything, but it is a big wrench in our life.
\n\nSTACY: It is.
\n\nCHAD: Today, tomorrow, for the next week, so...
\n\nSTACY: I'm sorry.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, so she's in a different part of the house, quarantining away from all of us, and we're hoping for the best.
\n\nSTACY: Me too.
\n\nCHAD: We could probably do a whole hour around how life is for all of us right now, coming in this different stage of the pandemic. I hesitate now to ask you, how are you today? [laughs]
\n\nSTACY: I'm here in London, so, for me, it's the end of my day. And fortunately, I haven't had COVID in a few months. But I know that experience and being even alone was enough to put a wrench in everything. So I get it.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's get back to Global Collective. I gave just a brief snippet. But can you tell people a little bit more about what it is you're actually doing?
\n\nSTACY: Yes, I would be honored. So the mission of The Global Collective is to revolutionize really how investment companies invest in female-founded and led businesses, and there are three key areas of that. It's really about changing gender perceptions by actually connecting the unique strengths of each gender. And if you were to even remove the gender piece, it's really talking about the core masculine and the feminine energies of how and what resides in all of us. How can we bring more of the flow and the creativity into business?
\n\nThe mission is also designed to eliminate the diversity gap. How can we make things better, more equitable, easier both for the men and the women, you know, going back to the genders? And something that's very near and dear to my heart is really about increasing the financial benefit and, frankly, the mental well-being in business because one thing that we don't talk enough about is the impact that mental health can have not only on our personal life but on business and vice versa. And I think it's starting to come out more and more.
\n\nBut with founders, with entrepreneurs, and with executives, that mental illness journey has actually increased, and there are some really interesting statistics on it. So, how can we make it a non-shaming conversation? And how can we actually help each other in this area? So the mission is really about transforming business into something different that I think we're all feeling the need for.
\n\nAnd how it actually came about was from my 50 years of business and personal experience. I was born into business owners, into a family of business basically. My first husband was a generational business owner and had the hard position to be in, and he had to choose family over business. And then I, in my corporate career, had a really long tenured corporate career.
\n\nI worked 26 years in companies as small as 40 as well as at Fortune 7 companies where we even did new initiatives, new businesses, startups within those. And modestly, most of my time was actually spent with male executives. And I'm a woman in business. I've been in business a really long time. So that's a little bit about the mission and how The Global Collective came about.
\n\nCHAD: You're not the first guest we've had on the show that's talked about these issues. But I'm curious because it is more of a conversation right now. It's something that we've been talking about on the show. Is there something that people in that environment that maybe people still don't realize or that you need to just reiterate over and over again here are the challenges, here are the differences, here's what's happening in the real world right now?
\n\nSTACY: Specific to the mental health piece?
\n\nCHAD: Either the mental health piece or just women in business and what it's like for them.
\n\nSTACY: Well, I think this is where I love to talk a little bit about the extremes and where those extremes are actually very similar. I believe that men feel like there's this weight of the world on their shoulders and that they have to provide, and serve, and do. And I also believe women do as well, you know, provide for their family, protect for their family. For many women, they may even be a single parent, and with that, they want to be able to go out and provide for themselves and do.
\n\nSo you have this desire, this deep desire to do both of those things differently, yet, we're going at it both parallel. And at some point, I think the convergence and really where things start to explode in a beautiful way is when we get to come together. Because if we go about it in a very myopic fashion, we often miss the things that are going on around us that could be a benefit.
\n\nSo from a very specific where I'm very focused on in the venture capital and investment space, so much of what has happened over the course of business time, if you will, and when venture capital investments started, which is, you know, I would imagine hundreds and hundreds of years, it has been mostly men that have done that investment. And when you look at the world as it exists today, it is mostly men that...I don't want to say control the money, but they're the ones in that business.
\n\nSo when you continue on doing the same thing that you've always done and you don't do anything new, that's telling us a couple of things: you don't know how, or you're afraid. And women, on the other hand, are going about doing their thing, working really, really hard. They're probably even more so working harder because it takes longer for them to earn just as much as a man. If they get funded, it takes longer to get funded, and then they actually get less, but they get to that point.
\n\nAnd in the meantime, they've had to either endure additional risks to their family by not spending time with their family, or giving up their family and focusing on the business, or focusing solely on their family and giving up the business. So we don't have to do things the way that we're doing them now.
\n\nAnd the other element, and where the mental health piece comes in, is this thought that we still have to do these things in these linear ways when we can actually come together and learn the beauty of what men do well in business and the beauty of what women do well in business, and figure out how to do it differently.
\n\nCHAD: You mentioned you have a lot of experience working for other companies. So I'm curious, when did you start to feel like you needed to do something to solve this problem and potentially create a new company around it?
\n\nSTACY: I've always had a deep desire to do business differently. And what I didn't know at the time in my corporate career was why I didn't feel like I fit in. Having grown up in that business world and knowing what it was like before cell phones and you still had your landline, and a Sunday evening, the telephone rings, and you're sitting at dinner, and your parents dare not answer the phone because the phone will keep ringing until somebody answers. That's just how it happened in the small town I grew up in.
\n\nKnowing that stress and that pain and watching them go through that to being married to a small business owner, and then being in the rooms and the spaces of the people and hearing the stress and the pain, there was this thing that followed me all the way through that knew that business had to be done differently. And I attempted to insert it a lot in my corporate career, and for most, because I wasn't a box-checker, I didn't fit in.
\n\nBut the deep desire to finally do it differently was in 2019 when I was made redundant. I had been working and doing coaching on the side, and it was my goal to finally go into business for myself. But in 2020, I divorced myself and decided to take myself on a journey. My children are a little older; they're in their early 20s. And I decided to just kind of come back to myself and understand what did I need to do this business for me and to do with what was deeply passionate within me. And could I do it in another country?
\n\nSo in 2021, I spent six months in London and, as part of that journey, did some work for a woman who owns a diversity, & inclusion, and belonging company. And through that experience and listening to her, along with a few other women, talk about that journey to get invested, there was something inside of me that just clicked. It was as if I was reliving sitting in front of capitol committees in my corporate world and listening to the same stories. I'm like, you know, that's just not how things have to happen.
\n\nIt was that moment that I knew it wasn't for me just about helping the women in business and helping them scale their business; it was something bigger than that because, in order to do that, to make that change, and to really make a meaningful change, you have to bring the men along for the journey. You have to help them. I know there are many men out there that are all for women-owned businesses, co-founded businesses, women-led businesses, and many of them come to me privately and talk to me about it. And my response is I need you not to tell me; I need you to show me.
\n\nAnd with that, I've also learned that many of them are afraid. They're afraid to do something different, which tells me that we have to create a space for both the men and the women to thrive. Otherwise, we'll just keep spinning our wheels and doing the same thing over and over again. And it will be far more difficult to get to where we need to get to than how we can get to where we want to go doing it a different way.
\n\nCHAD: So, what does the work Global Collective does look like? Is it coaching? Is it more than that? Is it different than that?
\n\nSTACY: My end vision, the bigger vision, is really this end-to-end ecosystem. So there are roughly five elements or five stages of a business idea: start, sustain, scale, and exit. The focus right now is on the scale and working through pilots with investors and with women in business to learn what and how we do it differently. Coaching will be a component of it, the mental health journey and navigating how that works for the founder and the business owner executive also becomes part of it.
\n\nBut it also is extensive external networks and communities that we bring into that ecosystem that can support both the investors and their journey and the women in business and their journey. Because the other elements that I have learned along the way is when these investors invest in these all-male-led firms, they don't even know how to help those businesses diversify. They themselves even know and have that challenge.
\n\nLet's take, for example, a woman founder who would like to go on maternity leave. It's more often that she will leave that business because the pressure from the investors to stay in the business and choose business over family is great. Wouldn't it be fantastic if there was a collection of fractional C-suite individuals that get to come in and help that business along on that journey?
\n\nAnd not only does the female founder get to be part of deciding who and what will be taken on and for how long, but the investor and the business. And then that way, everyone is along on that journey and is in agreement of what's going to happen. So there isn't that pressure to have to choose between business and family for anyone.
\n\nCHAD: I guess that's part of where the collective idea and name comes from.
\n\nSTACY: Yeah.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. You mentioned you moved to the UK as part of this journey. Are you working with companies primarily focused on the UK, or are you doing it globally?
\n\nSTACY: My focus right now is the U.S. and the UK. So I actually started a brand new business. I secured my own visa. And as part of that visa, I had to start a new business, which was this business. So yeah, the primary locations right now have been UK and U.S. If an opportunity came up in a different country, that would be fantastic, exciting, but that's where I've been focused are in those two areas.
\n\nCHAD: When thoughtbot was getting started in Europe, like most locations that started for us, it was driven by someone who was from there originally and wanted to go back. So when we were getting started, me and my family...my wife was working for a company based in France at the time, and so we were able to go over for the summer. The kids were out of school for the summer. And so we spent several months there, and we loved it.
\n\nAnd we're fully remote now, but when we had an office there, I would go about once a month. There's probably a small list of places where I could see myself living [laughs], and that's at the top of the list. Was that the case for you? Did something particularly resonate for you?
\n\nSTACY: You know, I had never been to Europe. And when I was looking at where I would go, I wanted a place that would be culturally diverse. I wanted a place where I could learn, just even be more immersed in history, and feel safe as a single woman in a foreign country. I'm grateful for my family. They're always very concerned about me, and frankly, so are my boys. Having two young adult men, I worried about them, but now they worry about me has started to come into play.
\n\nFor me, it was really about where can I be that would be safe, culturally diverse, and allow me the ability to travel, and to your point, to just go explore new things, really to take a different perspective even outside of the gender diversity piece, the cultural, the language, all of those things? And so this place is home, and I didn't know that when I set off.
\n\nI thought it just would be; I'll go see how it is for three months. And then I wasn't even here a week, and I said three months wouldn't be enough and stayed six. And it was about five weeks into that journey that I said six months won't be enough; I need to be here longer. And then that's when I did more due diligence from the visa standpoint.
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\n\nCHAD: Is there anything that either has stood out to you or surprised you about differences between business in the U.S. and the UK?
\n\nSTACY: It's fascinating to see how much they complain. The U.S. and the UK complain about each other and their work standards, yet how much they like what each other does. So I would say some of the biggest differences is that the city truly never seems to sleep, yet they definitely take time away from work and business and are very family-focused. That's probably some of the biggest things that I have learned as part of it, and especially having grown up in the culture that I grew up in, in corporate, where it was very much the grind of the nine-to-five plus.
\n\nSo there are some slight differences. I think, if anything, there's just so much more culture and people here that have come from so many other different parts of the world that that's probably the thing that I noticed the most.
\n\nCHAD: Do you think that the work you're doing is ready to be received more or less in either of the places?
\n\nSTACY: I think different parts of it are more ready to be received in different parts in each country.
\n\nCHAD: Can you tell me more about that?
\n\nSTACY: Yeah, there's probably more heavy gender influences here in the UK, especially with Scandinavian countries that are much more gender equitable. So I think that piece is very much a belief here. And there are other elements that support both sets of parents from a family standpoint in this country. So I think that is more readily received.
\n\nI also do know that women-owned businesses are significantly less here and certainly less from getting funded. I think that's where the U.S. is further ahead in that game. However, the number of businesses that are started by women are significantly more than what they are here. It becomes more about who's louder with certain pieces. I think the U.S. is louder in that area. I think the UK is more open and receptive.
\n\nCHAD: One of the things that I learned about investment in general between the U.S. and the UK is there's not, I mean, it's just not as big of a place as the U.S. The amounts are often less. And I'll say, speaking a little bit more generally, I would say people in the UK, investors in the UK, are a little bit focused on different things. They're maybe a little bit more risk-averse, or they're focused on different markets. So the investment community is a little bit different between the two different places. Does that make the opportunity for founders, particularly women founders, any different between the two different places?
\n\nSTACY: From the research that I've done through some interviewing with investors and then the research I've done on my own, there's a lot of little, smaller type of investment for female founders in the U.S. than there is in the UK. But that said, one thing that seems to be very prevalent is how much Europe, in general, talks about London being the epicenter for Europe and investment. You're asking a great question that I hadn't thought about in that framework.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, and I don't know the answer either [laughs], so...
\n\nSTACY: What I do know is in the U.S., there are more female-founded investment companies and female-led. However, I do know many of them are very much sticking to U.S. companies. But what I do know is that the UK is starting to leverage more and work in more partnership with U.S. investment companies.
\n\nCHAD: So if I am an investment firm, chances are that my entire, especially the leaders in the firm, are probably all men, maybe not, but if not all men, then the majority. So if I was sitting in that seat, how do we get started on this journey? Contact you?
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nSTACY: Yeah, contact me. [laughs] Honestly, it begins with a conversation. This is the really interesting piece that I don't think that we've yet talked about is women believe that men have control of all the money. And while they may be the ones that are leading more of these investment firms, it's not just up to them, if you will.
\n\nThere is this piece of the puzzle that, yes, we have these male-led investment firms, and they have repeatedly invested in mostly male-led businesses. But we have these women who have these beautiful businesses. Women are known for going to market with products and services that have fewer competitors in the market because 70% to 90% of consumer buying decisions around the globe are made by women. And so when they're out there buying and they see a gap, that's where a lot of these women start these businesses is based off of this gap that they see in the market, but they do have the power.
\n\nHow can I, as part of this...and even the men because I know I wouldn't be where I am today without the male mentors and influencers in my life encouraging me to be bolder and to be better. And they could see in me some things I wasn't yet willing to acknowledge. We, women, have to do the same for each other. We have to help each other be bolder, be braver, not assume that we are at the mercy of somebody else; we're not. We get to be in partnership with each other as women, and we get to go have these conversations with these men. So I think that's the part that's missing in that.
\n\nSo back to your question about if men want to get started in this, what do they do? Contact me, yeah, because let's start to have a conversation. There are so many men that know that they want to do different; they just don't know how. And when they do even see a woman come through the door, it's most often as a co-founder. They're not even sure what to do different to attract more of that.
\n\nSo that's when we get to talk about what is it that they're doing today? Where are they going to look? Who are they calling in? And how does that change their business? Because, at the end of the day, it's not as easy as just investing in women-owned businesses. And I get this question a lot; the question is, "Hey, Stace, are you going to bring us a list of women-owned businesses that we can invest in?" And my response is always with a smile. However, what I say is "No," or "You would have already done that because the list is already available to you."
\n\nHow they do business will transform. And that's the part that they get to go on this journey with The Global Collective is how do they transform their business as part of that? And that's scary to think. You've done something for so long. You do it really well. You make a lot of money doing it. Yes, there's risk, and as part of this, there's something even greater that would transform how you do business. So it becomes a longer conversation. It's not just about contacting me; I think that's the point I'm trying to get out. [laughter] It's a long-term relationship, and most don't consider that. And I certainly know that women don't either.
\n\nCHAD: So, speaking of that, what is the flip side of this if I'm a woman thinking about doing something new or already working on something? What do I do to get started with this and position myself differently or better?
\n\nSTACY: It's A, building your network. And this is where it gets really uncomfortable for women because the fear of asking for money from men it's a real fear with this perception that they have control. But it's really our own mindset around money and the fact that there's enough of it available. So how do we create diversity in who we talk with, who we talk to? What is it that we are looking to bring to market? Doing some research but not doing so much that you get caught in your own bubble if you will.
\n\nI would imagine, Chad, that especially those that you've interviewed and even on your own journey doing this as a founder or even being an executive, it can get kind of lonely. And sometimes we get into that I'm just going to do it, and I'm just going to do it. And I'm going to do it until it's perfect and kind of forget that along the way; we need checkpoints.
\n\nSo for women, it's the mindset factor of going in and doing something different, which means doing things that they've never done before: getting help, getting a coach, getting a mentor, putting together an advisory board, people that will hold you accountable, maybe even see your blind spots. It also is understanding that if you go pitch to one investment company, or one investment firm, or one investor and they say "No," okay, that doesn't mean that it's the end of the world. They just may not be for you at that time. And there's plenty more out there.
\n\nSo keep refining. Keep doing your thing. Continue to build your community. Continue to build your voice. And with that, also know that...and this is even part of my journey. You have to be confident in what it is that you're doing. You don't have to be confident in everything that you have to do to get it done, but you have to be grounded in what it is that you're bringing and what it is that you offer.
\n\nBecause the one thing that isn't talked about enough, and I've heard this enough with investors, is they're actually investing in the person. Yes, they're investing in a business, but they're investing in a person at the end of the day. And that part is overlooked. It's not just bringing something to market to bring it to market if you will.
\n\nCHAD: I hear that a lot. I think you're absolutely right. And I think that that gets too close, maybe, to what one of the core problems is. I think if investors are used to investing in people rather than the product and the stream of people that they're used to investing in looks a certain way or behaves a certain way, they're making decisions heuristically, oh, this makes a successful co-founding pair, or this makes us successful founder. And when something shows up that doesn't match the rest of what they see or the heuristic that they have, they really aren't able to think that that will be successful.
\n\nSTACY: I know myself even being in the rooms that I've been in and doing the work that I did; this journey has been nothing short of a beautiful journey of learning. And the craziest things have happened, as in, they're more difficult than I would have ever imagined mostly because I got in my own way. Or it has required me to learn the nomenclature that's applicable to the investor world, that's very similar to working with capital committees and finance and corporate. However, they use the word slightly. They use either slightly different words or they use them in a different way.
\n\nSo I've been very lucky. One of my advisors is actually a serial tech entrepreneur who has gone for funding alone half a dozen times, and so even when he and I will sit and talk about things, I continue to learn from him every single time. I said it this way. It would resonate more in this way. Which when you think about that, that doesn't mean I change my story, and my belief, and my confidence, and my grounding, and what it is that I'm bringing; it just means that I'm learning to speak different languages, and/or to be able to assimilate in an easier way.
\n\nIf what I say doesn't resonate with one investor, I can find another way to describe what it is that I'm attempting to describe in a language that might resonate more with him. It's not just about here's my business. Here's how we're going to make money, and the bottom line number says I'm making revenue. It's about the bigger pieces of it. It's about being confident in your story, what it is that you're offering, what it is that your strengths are, frankly. And I think there's a disconnect there.
\n\nWow, this could be a whole topic of its own, the perception that the founder has to know how to do everything or that we believe that we have to do everything. And then, what's your staying power in all of this? And I think that's even lost on itself. It's not for the faint at heart. And you learn not to take things personal, and you develop a thicker skin. But you still have to remain rooted in your core values.
\n\nCHAD: On that note of the misconception or the perception that founders need to know or do everything, there's something that I'm curious about that's sort of an extension of that for you. I've had other guests on the show where they're coming at it from a perspective of a lot of the same issues, but they're focused on getting more founders of color access to investment on both sides of that equation.
\n\nThe language you use is around gender and men and women, but we know there are people that don't fit into those boxes specifically, either. So how have you chosen what you've decided to focus on? And how do you not get overwhelmed from all the sorts of the landscape and how big this problem is?
\n\nSTACY: That's a great question because you're right, and I think about that often. I speak more in the norm, the heterosexual norm, genders. I am starting to talk more about the energies that really take away from the men and the women and really speak more about the masculine and the feminine. For me, that piece of it is where I'm staying focused because it's where I know I can do and make the most impact.
\n\nHowever, I believe that when we start to make traction in this way, we also get to make traction from a race and a color...and this is where the corporate culture is starting, I think, to understand and become more well-versed in the masculine and feminine energies. And when you can speak more in that language about the benefits that every single person has regardless of gender, when we get to speak in that language that is more inclusive, then I also believe that we get to include more people, more humans because, at the end of the day, we're all human. That's the one thing that we all [laughs] have in common. We get to speak in that language.
\n\nBut I think the fact that my end vision...the end goal is so big that to your question about how do I not get lost in the rest of it, I know that will come along as part of it. Even though it may not be the language that I use, I know deep in my heart that creating this opportunity and the shift for people to see those perspectives and for me as a founder to also ensure that within my values, I look to have inclusivity in other ways other than gender myself will be of value.
\n\nAnd in the meantime, those external...the business partnerships, the other elements of my business and who I get to work with or who we get to work with as a collective will include those that are more well-rounded into the language, and I can learn from them. And we get to do these things together, so I do believe that it comes together. I've really led with that so that I don't get so overwhelmed in attempting to accomplish everything.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. And I think the things you're working on feel different than just creating another business or another product like a SaaS product or that kind of thing, but I think a lot of the same principles still apply. And if you come out with something that is meant to be everything to everybody and you're not building from your experience, chances are good you're not going to be as successful as if you could focus and build from your experience and find your niche, and find the people who can help you do what you want to do and have the impact you want to have and then grow from there, as opposed to doing everything all at once.
\n\nSTACY: Yeah, I agree.
\n\nCHAD: But it's tough because it's hard to say, "No, I'm not working on that now," because it is still important.
\n\nSTACY: It is. The one thing I did, unknowing that this was going to happen but almost three years ago, while in my former life and in my corporate career, I led global teams and worked with different teams across the globe and had a little bit more of that cultural experience. The one thing that I really got hung up on when I first started was figuring out what my niche was because I've had all of that experience. But what I do know is that you get to create your own niche. That was something that took me a really long time to figure out.
\n\nI was so centered on conforming to what everyone else told me would be my niche. And I knew that there was something missing. And so part of what I do now, which is the beauty of living where I live now because there's so many different pockets of the culture pieces of it, race, religion, and ethnic backgrounds, I get to continue to build my network and my community with that thought in mind of being able to look for partnerships and have conversations, whether I'm here, whether it's those that are in the U.S. now that I have the attention of. It's all those things, and that just makes it better.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. Well, if this has resonated with people and they want to find out more, they want to get in touch with you, they want to start that conversation, where should they go to do that?
\n\nSTACY: They will find me...website is globalcollective.global. You will also find me on LinkedIn under Stacy Kehren Idema, as well as on Instagram under stacykehrenidema.
\n\nCHAD: Stacy, I really appreciate you joining the show and sharing with us. I appreciate the impact that Global Collective seeks to have. And I wish you all the best, I really do. So, thank you so much.
\n\nSTACY: Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Thanks, Chad.
\n\nCHAD: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks so much for listening, and I'll see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Stacy Kehren Idema.
Sponsored By:
John Ridd is the Co-Founder and CEO of Greenpixie, which is building solutions to reveal and reduce cloud emissions.
\n\nChad and Will talk to John about giving a clearer view of AWS emissions down to the service level, why cloud emissions are a much bigger sustainability issue than most people realize, and how this will be the next big issue of the climate crisis.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel.
\n\nWILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. And with us today is John Ridd, the Co-Founder, and CEO of Greenpixie, which is building solutions to reveal and reduce the emissions of the cloud.
\n\nCHAD: John, thank you so much for joining us. I have to admit that as a developer, this is something that I've been thinking a lot about recently. We practice test-driven development. We run continuous integration, even the things that we have running in the cloud in terms of the websites that we run and that kind of thing.
\n\nI'm also just really becoming aware of when I make a new branch in everything that I run, and I'm making a code change and pushing that up to GitHub; it then kicks off a build every single time any team member is doing that. And I can just see the impact that even just a single software product can have potentially on our environment. And I've started to become more and more guilty about that. So I'm excited to talk to you about how [laughs] we might be able to fix that problem.
\n\nJOHN: Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the big reasons that we've really seen the opportunity in the cloud emissions space is this disconnect really between how developers are incentivized to think, and rightfully so. They need to build and innovate at all costs; that's what drives the innovation in any tech company or any company. But the sustainability way of thinking and thinking, what am I building? What servers am I using and turning on? Just hasn't been in the conversation with developers. And they're the ones who are making these decisions using cloud providers to build out the products that the company needs. So it's great to hear that you're now aware of this impending issue from development.
\n\nCHAD: So I'm excited to dig more into the product. But I'm curious, you were doing digital marketing before starting Greenpixie, right?
\n\nJOHN: Yeah, I ran my own marketing consultancy, worked with a number of companies, big and small. And where I found my knack was sort of demand generation; really, starting off projects from nothing is what I've always done. It's clear now that...so Greenpixie was a bootstrap startup. Really using that ability to at least come up with an idea and take it from zero to one, bring demand to an issue, that's how Greenpixie started.
\n\nAnd it actually started with the head of engineering, Chris, who I met at my co-working space, and really we traded ideas through a hackathon on the weekend. And I had this idea when it came to website emissions and just knew that there was a software and a product play there. And what we do is connect into Google Analytics, put it through some carbon algorithms, and give them the ability to see how much digital carbon the website is producing. And from my marketing background, we've developed our own marketing, internal marketing software, which is a combination of we've built our own email servers with a high inbox. And we do semantic web scraping to find relevant prospects in the sustainability space.
\n\nSo we built the MVP and put this idea for Greenpixie out to the world, and the overwhelming response that we got was people being shocked at the idea of digital carbon and how their digital operations do have a sustainability impact. It really gave us the confidence to think there's demand for this idea of emissions. And since then, we've now moved into carbon emissions down the carbon rabbit hole. But my marketing experience explains how it started in the first place.
\n\nCHAD: So how does...sometimes when faced with, I think, all kinds of climate issues, people can feel overwhelmed or helpless or feeling like what do I do as an individual to have an impact? So what does Greenpixie and Cloud NetZero enable an individual, team, or company, or developer to actually see and do?
\n\nJOHN: Cloud NetZero connects into the leading cloud providers. So at this stage, we can give a clearer view of your AWS emissions down to the service level. And this is a key first step. So we take a you can't affect what you can't measure philosophy. And that was a big, big step for us. And by cutting into the cost and usage reports and putting it through our carbon algorithms, we can then get visibility to engineers.
\n\nSo everything you're building up in the cloud, we then give a full transparent view of the associated emissions that are being created from that by using our algorithms and methodology to convert the electricity used from the computation and storage and take into account the geographic location of the data centers of which you're using. As you can imagine, there are different carbon intensities in different countries during different times of the day.
\n\nSo we actually hook up into an API that gives us this carbon intensity data down to the hour. So we give a really comprehensive view of your carbon emissions footprint, which is what we consider the gold standard in sustainability. Because what makes the digital vertical so unique within sustainability is we've got data coming out of our ears. [chuckles] The data is there to connect into the software, so we can give this crystal clear picture.
\n\nWhereas in other branches of sustainability, if you're into supply chains, et cetera, you've got real-world problems that you have to put real-time into. So that's the first step that we do is giving you this clear picture of your emissions. And from that, we then proceed to suggest reduction strategies to reduce those emissions.
\n\nWILL: John, I'll be honest. Before getting on the podcast with you, I never thought about my cloud emissions as a developer. Now I'm seeing, wow, there is a lot there with that. On your Twitter, I saw this stat: imagine driving 1.3 billion miles all the way to Saturn. The carbon you would release would be about the same as the amount from all of these streams of Netflix's top 10 shows in the month that were released, 6 billion hours of viewing. I'm just mind-blown just thinking about that. For someone who is just now thinking about my cloud emissions, what would you tell me as a developer or any CEO that's listening to the podcast?
\n\nJOHN: So yeah, you're right. This is a much bigger sustainability issue than most people realize. Currently, it's estimated around 2% of global emissions are from the cloud and data centers use, which puts it near the level of the aviation industry. And because the cloud is so esoteric and it's called the cloud, you think it's light and fluffy, and you're like, okay, it's over there; it's fine.
\n\nBut there's a hard infrastructure that makes up the digital world that we enjoy, and that's thousands of racks of servers. That's so much gallons, like, millions of gallons of water used to cool these data centers. And because of this, there are countries such as Ireland and Singapore that have now begun to ban further construction of data centers. Because in Ireland, over 10% of the grid is taken up by these, well, I believe there was an article in The Telegraph that referred to these data centers as vampires, [laughs] vampires on the grid sucking all this energy up.
\n\nAnd the reason that this exists is it comes down to a company level or to a developer level. You're renting these data centers in order to grow your operations. And this aggregate demand goes straight into why these data centers exist and how much electricity they're using. But what you can do for a certain output...because we're a tech company and we love tech. And that makes us different to maybe some sustainability, really hardline sustainability environmental point of view because we actually think you can achieve the same output for 40% less energy use.
\n\nSo there's waste that is pretty rife across the cloud space, and that also comes with the amount of money spent on the cloud. There can be servers that have been left turned on that are no longer used. There can be non-essential computation that could be moved to low carbon intensity hours of the day. And there's so much that can be done and still basically enjoy and build the tech that we all aspire to build.
\n\nCHAD: I'm going to resist taking a tangent into What We Do in the Shadows and the energy vampire, or we can call them Colin, I guess, instead of vampires.
\n\nJOHN: Yeah, yeah.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nCHAD: So I used the calculator that you have on the website on our website, thoughtbot.com. I was pleased to see that it produces less carbon than 95% of websites. What goes into that calculation, though?
\n\nJOHN: So what we do on the estimator, on the webpage, the calculator, so we take into account whether your server being used is green or standard based on requesting that homepage. And then, really, there's a lot of overlap with PageSpeed optimization, rightfully, so the heavier the web pages, the more images. And if it's been coded lazily and it's heavy, which it hasn't been in your case, which I'm sure you're really happy about, that basically does have an effect on the electricity used in order to serve the website. And we also provide a website carbon report, which goes a step further and takes into account your Google Analytics, which goes for all your pageviews and takes into account some other factors too.
\n\nCHAD: When you're looking at the carbon footprint of a website, am I understanding that you're also taking into account the carbon footprint of the people viewing what it takes to view the website on the client too?
\n\nJOHN: It's very interesting, and we are going into the client side of emissions. That is definitely something that we're looking into and continue to do so. But now we focus more on the cloud. We stuck with websites as our main priority, that would mean the next step was going into client side, and it can, and that logic does go up. And it shows the ability of measuring sustainability impact when it comes to digital because, of course, you can get device information from Google Analytics, and that can then be used to give an accurate prediction. But that is something that we would definitely consider doing in the future. But you see the potential. It can go in all these different directions.
\n\nCHAD: A little bit of a meta question, then, so the calculator is running on people's websites. What is the carbon footprint of running the calculator on the site? [laughs]
\n\nJOHN: Well, that's the thing; we do have transparency of our own operations. So we're a seed-stage startup, and our operations might get a lot bigger. But for now, and given the sustainable approach, we take with how we run our cloud and run these tools, around two tons of CO2 we produce in a month from operations. But looking into other tech companies, you can imagine how AWS can get when it comes to the bigger companies and everything in between. It can really be hundreds or tens of tons. That has been currently unaccounted for and not addressed, which put into perspective, it's acting on your carbon emissions as an individual.
\n\nAnd let's say you're a developer who has the power to do this. You can have the effect of like ten times going vegan or not using air travel. So it's just really we really love the idea of combating carbon emissions, and developers, particularly combating carbon emissions is, using your unique skills in order to fight the climate crisis in a way that a non-technical person couldn't.
\n\nCHAD: So what are some of the things that you're doing as a company to solve that for yourself? Are there particular cloud hosting providers that are actually better than others?
\n\nJOHN: Yes, it does vary. So there are the big cloud providers, and we are on AWS due to the startup credit scheme, which, as you can imagine, that's very beneficial when you're starting from a bootstrapped model. And within AWS, you can actually...so choosing the geographic location of where you're spinning up the servers is one way you can reduce that. So our servers are in Ireland. So we're part of that issue actually, now that I think about it, because they have a relatively low carbon intensity. And that's one way that we ensure the carbon we're using is minimized. But there's a whole spectrum.
\n\nSo if you wanted to go at all costs and convenience and costs are out the window, there are niche carbon fighters, which actually are off-grid renewable power data centers. If you have the means, that is the optimum you can go in terms of the carbon intensity. But in terms of how we build, so just the typical making sure that we're turning off products, features, and servers that we don't use and being mindful of that, putting non-essential compute to low-carbon intensity periods in the day and just minimizing costs and using computation for a certain output is how we take that philosophy.
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\n\nWILL: On your website, I see that 127 billion is wasted in idle cloud spend, so obviously, one of your goals is to reduce that amount. What other goals is your company looking forward to solving?
\n\nJOHN: I would say our main goal is to reduce millions of tons of needless cloud emissions using scalable software. That is our guiding light. But within that, it correlates largely with cost savings for companies. So we could actually save companies millions of pounds as well or millions of dollars. So I'm from the UK; [laughter] I went for pounds. Yeah, that's the big push; that's our guiding light.
\n\nAnd we really want to be the torchbearers for digital sustainability as an idea. So having the awareness, we take responsibility for driving awareness for the issue also. As a team, we have a great combination of technical minds but also creative and marketing, getting the message out there and demystifying carbon emissions. So it's a technical issue because there's a technical issue when you dig into it. But we want to put it in a way that a non-technical decision maker in the C-suite would understand the issue in terms of the effects that you can have as a company in a sustainability drive.
\n\nCHAD: So you mentioned you got started from that original hackathon idea. And how did things progress for you from there? You now have a team of people working. Did you end up taking some investment in order to continue on?
\n\nJOHN: We did. We actually started it...so we started it as a passion project from that hackathon, saw the potential. I saw a small business opportunity through the website measuring. And we saw there was demand out there, so we started there. Then we saw it as a side project and continued to see potential and made the call to basically...the initial team was three of us. We went full-time and said let's see what we can do with this.
\n\nThen I came from a marketing consultancy...I self-funded it to the means that I could for the first six months. It's an interesting experience when you get possessed by an idea, and it's just I need to see this through. I see the potential. It's for a great cause. I think there's a big business opportunity here. And then, really, it came to that point, and we did start going down the investment route.
\n\nWe were part of an incubator associated with the University of Cambridge called Carbon13. It's a really interesting program where they put together experts in climate science, the developers. And you come together to try and come up with these big ideas to basically reduce millions of tons of emissions as a startup. And there was plenty. There was, for example, there was offsetting companies, there was carbon credit startups, everything you can imagine.
\n\nAnd it was there that we got put on the investment journey because at the end of the program, you get what was an £80,000 investment to then move on and then go down the VC route. Turns out we didn't get the investment despite us being one of the favorites. It didn't work out for various reasons. And then we were in a situation where I was like, okay, we need to get this investment in order to keep going and scaling the team.
\n\nAnd we ended up being VC-backed for our pre-seed from a company in London called Ascension. So we did a £250,000 pre-seed round to get things going. And that's why we have a team who is now working on this full-time. And it's been a bit of a journey, but the trials and tribulations of startups is just the game. And now we're looking to get our seed round. We're hoping to be closing by the end of the year.
\n\nCHAD: Congratulations on the progress so far. Why do you think Ascension was interested in investing in you?
\n\nJOHN: So, really, at pre-seed stage, I've talked to VCs and said market, founder, co-founders, anything else is just too early to really know with any certainty. So I think they saw that we were committed, enthusiastic about the idea. Will, the other co-founder, and CTO, is a full-stack developer. It's his second startup. And with my demand generation background, we thought we were a good fit.
\n\nBut really, I think a lot of time and thinking, and commitment has gone into (blood, sweat, and tears) has gone into thinking how we can create a product or software company that addresses carbon emissions. And I think investors have a good radar of when people are really committed, and that's what we were.
\n\nWILL: You've recently done a soft launch of Cloud NetZero. Can you give me more information around that?
\n\nJOHN: Yeah, absolutely. We did our soft launch, so this is after the pre-seed investment. We got the 250,000. And we built the product that we laid out in that pitch, which was a software that integrates to AWS and gives you this granular breakdown of your emissions by service. And that was what we presented on our soft launch. We did an in-person event, which we just got a small room and managed to...so around 50 people turned up, which we're pretty proud of. And people do seem to be attracted to this idea. We use my marketing background [laughs] to kind of bolster those numbers.
\n\nBut it was a really great experience. So it was actually on the side of our co-working space where we did a hackathon originally. And it was a bit of an experience, quite a heartwarming experience that everyone has come together. I'm just like, oh, it was in that room that it started as an idea, and now 50 people coming from VC backgrounds, from sustainability, from tech are all coming together. And considering we started in COVID times, to have everyone in the room was just great. So it was great. Yeah, thanks for highlighting it. I really have good memories of that soft launch.
\n\nCHAD: So people can get a demo and sign up now.
\n\nJOHN: Yeah, absolutely. So the product is up and running. It went from idea to reality which we're very, very proud of the product team for hitting it on time as well. So we did a 100-day push, and on the 100th day, it was ready for us. And we actually got a big update Monday next week, which is going to be the V 1.1. I call it V2, and then my CTO says, "No, it's V 1.1." [laughter]
\n\nCHAD: Oh, you need to make your CTO understand that for marketing purposes, you need to make your version numbers bigger.
\n\nJOHN: Yeah, yeah, he's just like, "If you think that's V2, you don't know what you're saying." [laughter] You can contact us, and we can basically show you the onboarding to get you closer to your cloud provider. And you can have a crystal clear picture of your carbon emissions. And the companies we're talking to now so software companies, so pretty well-known brands. We're now in conversation with as well as just your heavy-duty tech companies. And they're really our ideal client we're looking to now because they have a large amount of carbon emissions, and they want to be really measuring them for their sustainability initiatives.
\n\nThey are actually going to be required to...from the beginning of next year, there's regulation creeping in that's going to make companies measure their Scope 3 emissions, and we have the product to do that. And once we go over that first stage of measurement, then the next step is giving you recommendations to reduce it ultimately, and that will be both in cloud emissions and costs. So we actually are a cost-saving software ultimately because we can highlight wasted cloud spend, and there's a lot of it in these tech companies.
\n\nCHAD: So you've launched. It sounds like you're focused on getting customers and making sales. How does the pricing work for the product?
\n\nJOHN: At the moment, we are charging 10K a year to use the software. This is for...so it would be your mid-sized tech company is really who that's aimed for. Anything that goes into really heavy-duty cloud emissions analysis would be probably just down the road just because the complication gets considerably...there's a lot more computing that we need to do on our end, which there are costs associated with that. And there's a lot more, as you can imagine, a lot more hand-holding in order to get integrated and that type of thing. So the pricing would be larger for those more developed companies who have huge AWS accounts.
\n\nCHAD: A lot of companies' pricing is one of the things that they struggle with early on. I assume you'll learn, and your pricing model will change. But is there something that particularly you weren't sure about when it came to the pricing?
\n\nJOHN: So the pricing it's really what we're seeing from other parallel softwares on the market more towards the cost reduction side of the cloud. They don't focus on emissions. It's...we'll plug the right place for that. And I think given the opportunity cost, especially from the sustainability and measurement perspective, the alternative is companies are spending a lot of money on sustainability consultants to try and figure out these emissions for the reporting means, and our software does the heavy lifting for you, as any good product does. And with the cost savings on top of that, it's about right for now.
\n\nBut as we improve the product and can accommodate these bigger enterprise clients, the price model will evolve and probably get more expensive. But not to overcomplicate; it is the logic at this point. And once we do have the ability to take on these more complex arrangements, the pricing would reflect that. Yeah, so that's the plan.
\n\nWILL: Well, John, I thank you for coming on the podcast and being a part of it. Is there anything else that you would like our audience to know?
\n\nJOHN: We're shouting from the rooftops about carbon emissions. This is going to be the next big issue of the climate crisis. So I truly believe that there are estimates that digital emissions will rise past 10% of global emissions by 2030. Our thirst for data isn't going anywhere. And there's a real chance that computing principles such as Moore's Law that have allowed these improvements in hardware to keep up with the demand for data won't necessarily last forever.
\n\nAnd from that, we need to really wake up to the fact that the digital world, despite it being, yeah, it seems like it happens by magic, there is real sustainability impact. But the good news is we think that using the scalability of software...because the scalability of software that has seen so much success for companies can be used to have an equally positive impact on the planet and prevent this issue of digital emissions by using the inherent scalability of digital and availability of data.
\n\nSo that's really what I'm preaching at the moment. And we believe the best first step for that would be a product called NetZero because it gives transparency over these emissions. You can see it in front of your eyes, and then decisions can be made in order to reduce them. That's what I chose to be my soapbox moment.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nCHAD: That's great. John, if folks want to find out more, see that demo, get in touch with you; where are all the different places that they can do that?
\n\nJOHN: greenpixie.com is where you can just contact us, and we'll be straight on the phone with you. Another place to see what we're really up to and get more ideas of digital sustainability the best place is probably our LinkedIn company page. We're quite active on there. If you want to take your first steps into digital sustainability, start there. And if you think your company is ready to act on their carbon emissions or you just want to find out a little bit more, then yeah, just contact us through our website, and we'll have a chat.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. Everything that John just mentioned is going to be linked in the show notes, along with a complete transcript for this episode. You can subscribe to the show and find all of that at giantrobots.fm.
\n\nWILL: If you have any questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm.
\n\nCHAD: You can find me on Twitter @cpytel.
\n\nWILL: And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nCHAD: Thanks for listening, and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: John Ridd.
Sponsored By:
Jade Kearney is the Co-Founder and CEO of She Matters, a digital health platform designed to improve postpartum comorbidities for Black women through community, culturally competent healthcare providers, and culturally relevant resources.
\n\nVictoria and Will talk to Jade about why postpartum depression is so dangerous for women, her experience as a mother and why she founded She Matters, and what culturally competent care looks like for Black women.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nWILL: This is the Giant Robot Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Jade Kearney, the Co-Founder, and CEO of She Matters, a digital health platform designed to improve postpartum comorbidities for Black women through community, culturally competent healthcare providers, and culturally relevant resources.
\n\nWILL: Jade, thank you for joining us.
\n\nJADE: Thank you for having me.
\n\nWILL: So I want to start off the podcast and really talk about the issues that you're working to solve because, to be honest, before I was a dad, I had no idea about any of the things that you're trying to solve, but now that I am a dad, I am very well aware of it. So, can you explain to our audience exactly what you're working to solve?
\n\nJADE: No problem. What we're working to solve is we're trying to decrease the incidence of Black maternal morbidity and what that means is how Black women are treated in the delivery room and postpartum. I'm not sure if anybody is aware, so I always try to give the statistics upfront: Black women are four times more likely to die during pregnancy and after pregnancy than White counterparts. And here in the state of New York, we're 12 times more likely to die.
\n\nSo what we're doing as a company is we're looking to decrease postpartum comorbidities through culturally relevant resources, community, and culturally competent healthcare providers that we supply through our She Matters app.
\n\nWILL: Those stats are so devastating to hear. You hear the stats and postpartum and things like that. Why is postpartum so dangerous?
\n\nJADE: Postpartum is dangerous because postpartum starts the moment you have a child. And when you first have a child as any type of woman, Black, White, Asian, your focus is on the child, and you're not paying attention to the signs of your body. Also, postpartum is not talked about that much. After you have a baby, the focus is on the baby, and a lot of women don't understand what they're experiencing when they're experiencing it. So there may be some very, very alarming signs that are happening that are going off in your body or mind because we're talking about mental health and physical health that a woman doesn't resonate with because no one's talked to her about it. So there's no information.
\n\nSo a woman is experiencing...has an out-of-body experience having postpartum anxiety and depression and doesn't know what's going on because there's been no information given about it. It can be a silent killer, really, when you think about eclampsia, and you think about HELLP syndrome, which is like high blood pressure during and postpartum. These are the top killers of all women. And if you don't know the signs of that, if you don't know what to look for, you may very well think it's a part of postpartum when you're actually in danger.
\n\nVICTORIA: And that sounds so important to increase awareness in the education and community around these issues. Can you tell me more about what culturally competent care actually looks like for Black women?
\n\nJADE: So culturally competent care means that you are receiving care from a health provider that understands the stuff that I'm conversing with you guys about. They understand Black maternal morbidity; they understand it is due to systemic racism. They understand that cultural competence is the first step toward communication and trust. So they're meeting Black women where they are.
\n\nFor instance, culturally, a Black person may say, a Black mother, in particular, may say, "God told me this wasn't normal." Some people may see that as psychosis, so the person may be having terrible mental health issues. In our culture, that's something that we may just say. So to be culturally competent, you have to be aware that, oh, that's a colloquialism used in the Black community, and so I really should be focused on how this mom is feeling instead of maybe she needs to go to the psych ward. There are little differences and nuances like that that cultural competency changes the trust barrier, and it changes the communication barrier for both the healthcare provider and the mother.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. That makes sense to me. And for myself being from Maryland, I have friends who have gone to doctors who just wouldn't believe them when they brought up that they were in pain. Or if another doctor referred them to get an MRI, the new doctor wouldn't want to provide that service. And so your app is trying to bridge that gap and that systemic racism that's built into the system as well.
\n\nJADE: Absolutely. That's a common complaint of Black women or Black people, but really Black women, that when we are in distress, when we are in pain, that people just don't believe us because people aren't comfortable with us being in pain, and that goes back to systemic racism. And if you're not culturally competent, you may be unaware of your cultural biases just because you've never had the conversation. And so, 89% of procedures done to Black women are done without their full consent, so Black women are not comfortable. They didn't want to have the procedure. They were coerced into the procedure because people don't listen. Doctors don't listen to us.
\n\nWILL: Jade, let's take a second because I love your passion behind it. Where does your passion come from for this situation? Tell us about your experience as a mother and why you founded She Matters.
\n\nJADE: Well, my passion comes from becoming a mother, becoming a Black mother to a Black child when I had my first daughter. The first doctor I went to treated me like a statistic, and she was a Black doctor. I felt so scared all the time that I knew it wasn't the right practice for me, and I switched practices at 27 weeks. And when I got to my next practice, I was able to talk to my doctor, Dr. Garfinkel, in Morristown, New Jersey, who is a Jewish man, but was culturally competent, knew the statistics, understood the system and promised me that he would do everything in his power to make sure I had a healthy birth.
\n\nI did have preeclampsia. I did have an emergency birth. But my daughter and I made it out of that situation healthy. The issue was during my postpartum period; I had nowhere to go. I didn't understand that the mental illness that I was facing around postpartum OCD, where you have terrible ruminating thoughts about your child or yourself, so harming your child or harming yourself, I didn't understand that that can happen during postpartum and really felt like I was losing my mind.
\n\nI felt like I was failing as a mom, and I felt a lot of shame. I went to both my family and friends, and because of the stigma around mental health in the Black community, I didn't find any support there. What I did find was shaming. I found disbelief and really just avoidance of the problem. Like, my mom said to me, "We're Black women. We don't have time for this. You have to go back to work. You need your health insurance."
\n\nWhen I reached out to my healthcare provider at the time, I was told, "I'm going to send you Zoloft and check in with you in six weeks." That's not what I needed to hear. Because I'm a Black woman, I wasn't comfortable with taking an antidepressant. I also was uncomfortable not speaking to my healthcare provider. And I knew that there was a disconnect right there. I couldn't go to family and friends. And I couldn't go to the healthcare system because I was being completely neglected by psychiatrists, by the emergency room, by doctors.
\n\nAnd I created She Matters because I never wanted any other Black woman to feel the way that I felt during my first 12 months of being a mother. I thought we need culturally competent healthcare providers. We need communication with each other, community so we can validate our experiences when we're having these weird things that happen to your mind or body.
\n\nAnd we need culturally relevant resources because when I was on the internet, I couldn't find anything where Black women were talking about our problems because of the stigma. I couldn't find a lot of information around the postpartum state of Black women because we're neglected in healthcare. So that's why I founded She Matters.
\n\nVICTORIA: And you founded it over four years ago. And at the time, I believe you were in the process of one of your master's degrees. And looking at the degrees you have, it almost seemed like you planned on founding a company like this. [laughter] But yeah, can you tell me more about your education and how that feeds into your ability to perform as a founder?
\n\nJADE: Sure, I did not plan this. [laughter] I was definitely being over-educated, didn't want to leave school; I love to learn. And so I have a degree in diversity and inclusion management and digital media design from NYU. And at the time, I thought I was going to create continuing education platforms or blended learning programs for K through 12. I didn't know that this would be my trajectory.
\n\nAnd so everything I did around diversity and around digital media has helped me launch She Matters. It's really allowed me to cultivate who I am as a CEO and not look at the problem only as a Black mother who experiences these things but also as a business person, also as a tech founder, and be able to zoom out and see what adjustments need to be made that aren't personal to my story.
\n\nVICTORIA: And that probably is why you've been so successful, and congratulations on your most recent round of funding. What are you most excited about to be working on with your new capacity?
\n\nJADE: I am most excited about working with the thousands of healthcare providers that we're getting ready to work with. It's so important that cultural competency be something that's not a new wave or something popular, but it becomes ingrained in the healthcare system. I love when hospitals are open to making these changes, and they're aware of the problems within hospitals.
\n\nI'm also really excited about our new symptom tracker that can be connected to wearables. So preeclampsia, eclampsia, and HELLP syndrome are some of the things that I talked about. And we've created a system tracker on our app that can help mothers get to the hospital faster. I'm really excited about unveiling that on our version two of the app.
\n\nWILL: What causes these issues in the Black community? Why are they so overlooked?
\n\nJADE: Why are they so overlooked in the Black community, by Black people, or in general?
\n\nWILL: Just in general. So you said that you were overlooked and your doctor was a Black lady. But then you had a Jewish doctor that said, "I'm going to take care of you." From your understanding and your view, what do you think caused that?
\n\nJADE: It's systemic racism. So the status quo...systemic racism doesn't change because you're Black. We're all part of the system. And that's why cultural competency is needed. Everyone needs that regardless of your race because when you're part of the system, sometimes you're unaware of your biases. People are doing what's been done, and what's been done is unfair. There's no health equity.
\n\nPeople are comfortable with the level of pain Black women experience. People are comfortable with the stats being where they are. Things are just now starting to change. People are just becoming uncomfortable, and that's going to take some years for everyone to become uncomfortable. But it is because this is the system as it is, and people are comfortable with the current system, Black, White, or other.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And you talked about what new features you're excited about for your platform. And how does the app that you've created start to increase that cultural competency? Like, how does it really work within a healthcare system?
\n\nJADE: The app is for our community of moms, and our learning management system is where healthcare providers go. So that's where you get the experience of the culturally competent certification. And you get the curriculum, and you get the experts in health equity leading the classes and talking about Black maternal morbidity and making connections between systemic racism and health outcomes. Our LMS system is the most important part of our training.
\n\nAnd our app is the most important part to communicate with our moms and offer a listserv of these doctors who are taking our certification, the resources that we talked about, and those symptom trackers that we talked about. Without technology, none of this would be happening.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. So you have really two user groups, right? You have your Black women mothers and then also hospitals that you're designing for.
\n\nJADE: Yes.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I wonder if you found any interesting design challenges for either group.
\n\nJADE: And this is my life. The most challenging thing for the mothers is engagement because you have to understand being a mom is full-time. It's like a full-time and a part-time job together. So how do you create programming at an engagement level that's fair for moms? How do you measure a mom's engagement? It's going to be a little bit different because if you have one child or four children, your time on an app is going to be different, not to mention if you have a full-time job.
\n\nSo it's just about creating engaging programming that mothers will take their downtime to utilize. And I feel like we have a little bit of secret sauce there; it's around our ability to connect to our moms and to bring experts in healthcare to our mothers. When it comes to healthcare professionals, I think healthcare professionals are more than willing to take a course.
\n\nIt is explaining to hospitals that Black women are worth the investment because, remember, they've been comfortable with the situation as is. Having to convince people that the demographic that you've ignored is important is a job. I also feel like once a hospital decides to come on board with us, I have this huge sigh of relief because trying to explain to people why Black women deserve to live through birth and after can be taxing.
\n\nVICTORIA: I can imagine being a mom yourself and having this startup and having to do that difficult work of explaining to people how systemic racism affects their healthcare and why they should care is exhausting. So how do you recharge and find time for yourself and balance your life if it's possible? [laughs]
\n\nJADE: I have a great support system; I cannot lie to you, like, between the people who helped me with my children, my team here at She Matters, our board. Like, some people talk about their boards...my board is like family in terms of the support that they give to my co-founder and I. They've been committed to helping us change maternal morbidity in the United States and to have their support and to have the support of everyone in my life is most important.
\n\nAnd I often say to founders, "You cannot do this without support. I don't care how much money you raise. You will lose your shit no matter what your venture is." Because being a founder, being a CEO is very lonely. It doesn't look like anything that's been done before, and you don't have punch-in and punch-out hours. So support is the way that I keep my mind healthy. I'm able to have downtime for myself, and the way that I'm able to be the best person I can be so I can be the best mom.
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\n\nWILL: You know, you're from Newark, New Jersey. What is your favorite thing about that area?
\n\nJADE: I love Newark. In Newark, we say 'nurk.' I know outsiders say 'noo-urk.' But I love being from Newark because I saw kind of the best of both worlds. Newark has such a rich history. And there are so many problems currently around just systemic racism, whether it's education, healthcare, the judicial system, and you kind of see both things play out where you have great private schools, and you have great universities. Shout out to Rutgers; I went to Rutgers, Newark. And then you have all the problems that the country has.
\n\nSo it gave me a different lens. I own where I'm from, but I also saw the greatness of where I'm from. And I believe it's helped propel me to where I am because I have lived both lives firsthand. And I know what it's like to go to a school that's not receiving funding, to go to a hospital that's coined a Black hospital and to be treated unfairly, and then to go right into another town in Essex County and be treated differently because it's quote, unquote, "a White hospital." Newark has given me the duality that I have as a person to experience both lives.
\n\nWILL: Wow, you speak of systemic racism. And in my opinion, I think there are almost two sides of it. I think you have the side that that's their beliefs and the way that they comprehend it, and that's what they're going to believe. And then you have a different side that's like; I had no idea because I've been in my bubble for so long.
\n\nAnd correct me if I'm wrong if I'm missing a category, but in my experience, it's almost the two that I see. And especially with 2020, I think a lot of that slowly started peeling back. And so it seems like you're dealing with that head-on. How have you been received by the doctors and the hospitals in that area?
\n\nJADE: It just depends on the doctors and the hospitals. Sometimes people say, "This is what we really want, oh my God, because we don't know what to do." And this is such a huge problem speaking to Black maternal morbidity. With the Black Momnibus Act that was passed in November 2021, there's been $3 trillion put into the pipeline to make these changes. So hospitals are paying attention.
\n\nBut paying attention and providing your healthcare professionals with the service are two different things. I've been received in both ways; wow, you guys are the second coming. And yeah, this is great, but we're not really focused on it right now. We want to pretend that we're focused on it, but we're really not. It's difficult.
\n\nAnd I do think those two sides of the coin of systemic racism exist where there are people who are proponents of it and who know what they're doing, and there are people who have no idea. Either way, training is necessary so that you can treat people equally.
\n\nWILL: Yes, I totally agree with that. Totally agree with that. If you had one message you had, you know, however long you want, what would be the one message that you would want the audience to know about She Matters and what you're solving?
\n\nJADE: She Matters is solving for an American problem. This is an American healthcare problem. And people assume when you say Black maternal morbidity that it is not an American problem. Black people are Americans. And I know that sounds crazy because if you're born here, you're an American. But it's not crazy. People act like this is a separate problem from themselves. No, this is our problem, everyone's problem. When women are dying, that's everyone's problem. When there are health inequities in your hospital, it's everybody's problem. We should all care about Black women dying, period.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I think there's a book out this year that calculates the cost of systemic racism, and this area, in particular, the amount of death and the hospital costs related to this is, for no other moral reason, it's very expensive. And addressing it and protecting our community keeps us all healthy, and safe, and good.
\n\nI love what you're doing with the app. And I think it's so important, and I'm really glad you came on the show to tell us about it. I'm curious, if you could travel back in time to when you first started, what advice would you give yourself?
\n\nJADE: Prepare for the long haul, prepare for the long journey, prepare for the long road. Pace yourself. This is a marathon, not a sprint. It is going to be harder than you think. I didn't think it was easy at all. But I did think that people would understand the severity of the problem we're solving for, and that's just not the case. [laughs] So the convincing part, like I mentioned earlier, is very taxing. I become exhausted with explaining the value of my life as a Black woman. It's exhausting.
\n\nWILL: Wow. If you can sum up (This is a two-part question.) your toughest decision or time since you founded She Matters, and let's end it on your best, successful, happy moments since you founded She Matters.
\n\nJADE: Okay. The toughest was raising our most recent round. There's a lot of systemic racism there as well. Black women get less than half a percentage point of the venture capital given to startups. And knowing that challenge and speaking to investors who claim that they have interest in people of color and women of color, and when you get in front of them, it becomes the same stats that you use for all startup and tech companies when this is different. This is not a chip. This is not something that people are familiar with.
\n\nSo people not understanding that when it comes to something like this, which has not been done before, sometimes you have to use a different metric system. We should present to you in a way that is comfortable in Silicon Valley. So I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything that everybody else does; no, we should. But when we're presenting to you, you have to understand the hurdles and the challenges that it took for us to get in front of you. If Black founders are in front of venture capitalists, we are unicorns. We're the best of the best because for us to get there, we had to go through hell and fire. So that's the one thing.
\n\nAnd when it comes to the most positive thing, it would be the amazing feedback we get from mothers and from healthcare professionals. Some people send us donations; some people just volunteer their medical experience, which is expensive. Anytime a healthcare professional says, "I have 10 hours that I can volunteer to a Black mom," that's huge for us. A therapist saying, "I'll offer any She Matters community member 45 minutes free," do you know how much my therapy is? [laughter] I'm like, oh my God, that's so amazing.
\n\nAnd those things matter to me. Like, it's not about revenue for me as much as it is about getting the women the help that they need. And so every time what I say lands with a healthcare system or professional, it warms my heart. Every time a mother is helped, it warms my heart.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, that's wonderful. It's been amazing to hear more on this issue. And I hope our listeners appreciate getting educated on this topic. Is there anything else you want to promote or take a second to leave our audience walking away with?
\n\nJADE: Yeah, sure. Just go to shematters.health to learn more about what we're doing. And if you're a Black mother, download the app. If you're a healthcare professional, sign up for our next cohort November 7th. If you just want to learn more, send us an email. Follow us on social media, @shematters.io, on Instagram. We're around, and we love to hear people's feedback. We're here for the volunteering. We're here for it all. We're here if you just want to learn more really.
\n\nWILL: Jade, thank you so much for, one, being on the podcast, but most importantly, the impact that you are having on our community, the United States, the world because I think you are going to have that impact on the world the longer you're in this, and the more you go. So just thank you. Thank you for everything.
\n\nJADE: Thank you, guys, for giving us a platform to reach more people, and thank you for caring enough to have me speak for Black mothers and for She Matters. I appreciate it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, thank you so much. I really enjoyed our conversation today.
\n\nWILL: You can subscribe to this show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm.
\n\nVICTORIA: If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm.
\n\nWILL: You can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
\n\nVICTORIA: And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nWILL: Thanks for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Jade Kearney.
Sponsored By:
Jordyn Bonds is the Director of Product Strategy at thoughtbot. Jordyn helps companies validate new product opportunities and reach that first key milestone, from validating an early adopter market to creating a pitch deck to building a prototype, proof of concept, or an MVP launch.
\n\nChad talks to Jordyn about what a Director of Product Strategy does, how Jordyn's career has evolved (She got to build madonna.com for the Confessions on the Dance Floor release and tour!!), and finding practices that keep you motivated and inspired to be working towards long-term, large goals.
\n\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Jordyn Bonds, the Director of Product Strategy at thoughtbot. Jordyn helps companies validate new product opportunities and reach that first key milestone, from validating an early adopter market to creating a pitch deck to building a prototype, proof of concept, or an MVP launch.
\n\nJordyn, thank you for joining me not only on this podcast but at thoughtbot.
\n\nJORDYN: Thank you. It's wonderful to be here.
\n\nCHAD: You joined us in September of this year. And it's been really fun to watch...well, let me say it's always fun to watch people come into the company and begin to digest everything that's there, begin to, like, okay, I can see how this is working, and then to start to make your mark on things. And so thank you for everything you've done so far. And I look forward to seeing everything in the future too.
\n\nJORDYN: I look forward to it too. It's been a super interesting experience. I think thoughtbot has a really unique culture, and it's been really fun to get on-boarded into it.
\n\nCHAD: Cool. I'd love to talk a little bit more about that in a bit. But you have joined us as the Director of Product Strategy, which is actually a new position for us in the Ignite team, which is the team that focuses on those early-stage ideas, products, companies. Obviously, if we added the position, we thought it was important. We don't take those things lightly. What led you and made you perfect for that position?
\n\nJORDYN: [laughs] I think taking something from a nascent notion, whatever that is, an idea for a product or newly identified market opportunity to that first concrete thing out in the world is a really special phase of the work of new product launches. And it is, over the course of my career, just the thing I have really zeroed in on professionally over time. That's kind of my wheelhouse. And so I think that's thing number one. But what makes it special is that I like to think of it like it's almost like the first few seconds of the existence of the universe after the Big Bang...
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJORDYN: where you are inventing the ground rules of the thing you are building as you are building it. And that is a very...it's just a really special time. And some people love it, and some people despise it. There's a lot of chaos and uncertainty, and you have to move forward despite all of that chaos and uncertainty. And some of us love the; I don't know, there's just this feeling that anything is possible, a sort of sense of newness and really paving the road while you're hacking through the jungle, and I just love that.
\n\nAnd I feel like I want to help other companies love that phase too. [laughs] It's like a weird thing to say. I'm almost like an evangelist for that time. But I'm an evangelist for it because I feel like it's really important to make sure that you're tying the mission and vision of the business; you're weaving it into what it is you're doing in the product ASAP. Do it early. Make sure you're thinking about this stuff from the jump. And if I can be an evangelist for that kind of thinking and the processes that make it possible, it's just a really exciting thing for me to be able to do.
\n\nCHAD: That's really cool. You saying that made me think about this sense that I have that oftentimes when you're faced with that period of time where everything is possible, and you're literally defining what the product and the business is going to be, maybe there are more than two buckets. But I think, generally, people fall into one of two buckets. There are the people who look at that and say, "Okay, here's what we're not going to do." And they're really good at saying no to things and narrowing down from that. Another group of people who maybe even really struggle with all of the possibility, and their reaction is to say "Yes," to everything.
\n\nJORDYN: Right. Yep.
\n\nCHAD: And you can probably say judged by the way that I introduced the concept which one I think is better.
\n\nJORDYN: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: But that's the two buckets I see. Do you see that too?
\n\nJORDYN: Oh, absolutely. And I will say partly why I am so enthusiastic about this phase is that I was a bucket number two person and worked very hard to become a bucket number one person because that's the mindset you have to get in. But it's a real delicate balance. It's not always clear; you have to be open to things changing. But saying no is way more important than saying yes in the sense that, you know, I think the phrase people like to use in startup land is you can't boil the ocean, and that is true.
\n\nSo it's much easier...the path is much easier and clearer if you start small. But if you're an entrepreneur, by nature, that's going to feel really uncomfortable to you because what you see out in the world is possibility and probably endless possibility, right?
\n\nCHAD: Right.
\n\nJORDYN: So the notion that you are going to squeeze yourself into the tiniest space to start when you see the giant opportunity. And PS, everyone is asking you to articulate that giant opportunity. You need to be able to tell that story so that you can recruit people to your cause. But at the same time, you need to be ruthlessly focused in the here and now on the small things, like, the constrained things you're going to do, for now, all the things you're going to say no to for now while keeping your eyes on this larger, expansive prize. It is just a really...it's an art; it is a hard thing to do.
\n\nCHAD: How did you shift your mindset?
\n\nJORDYN: Through failure.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJORDYN: It was through painfully failing at doing this. [laughs] I made every textbook mistake, some of them fairly recently. [laughs] So there's a lot of folks out there who their first venture, their first foray into this world, was a success, and that's wonderful for them. That's great. But their advice is sort of suspect for me and for a lot of founders because it's like, well, you didn't... [laughs] maybe it was skill, maybe it was luck; it was probably a combination of both. Like, good for you that you did this.
\n\nBut if you've started a business, launched a product one time, and it was wildly successful, how are you in a position to teach me who might be on failure number two, or three, or whatever, how I need to change in order to be successful, what needs to change in order for me to be successful? Like, you're not going to be that useful to me. And so I find I'm in a much better position to help other people not fall into the same potholes that I did because I fell into them.
\n\nI can look at folks and say, "I know what you're thinking. I know you've got your eyes on this large market opportunity. And you can see the mass market future ten years from now for this thing that you're building, that's great. But you have to start with the narrowest of early adopters." And you have to start with a pain point that is, quote, "hair on fire" is another phrase people like to use, like, just some pain point that people have that is just so painful for people right now that they are willing to pay someone to fix it.
\n\nYou got to focus on that despite this large, open-ended opportunity that's in the future. I can only really give that advice to folks credibly because I have done the opposite so many times that I can both empathize with where they're at in that impulse to boil the ocean, but I can also tell them how one way of disabusing yourself of that mindset.
\n\nSo I think back to actually...so I have an older sister. She was really terrible at math when we were younger. [laughs] And she was the best math teacher for me because it didn't come easy for her. Going to someone who's a math genius to help teach you what greater than or less than is is [laughs] not going to help you because it's self-evident to them. Like, how are they going to break that down for you? My sister was a great math teacher for me because her understanding of math was quite hard-won. So if I came to her and said, "Hey, I don't understand greater than or less than," which, PS, is truly what happened.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJORDYN: I was like, I don't really...however, it was being explained to me did not [laughs] resonate. She was a great person to go to because she would not judge me for not understanding it, first of all, and she would have ways of breaking that down. So I'm that person for new founders, people just starting out trying to come up with a new product or explore a new opportunity. I have learned all the painful lessons on their behalf. So it's not like I'm coming to them with advice; that's just boilerplate advice I have read somewhere, and I'm now repeating to them. No, I have painfully learned these lessons. [laughs] Let me help you avoid that.
\n\nCHAD: And you said it earlier...you used the phrase like not now or not yet. And I think that's a great way of just slightly...no doesn't mean no forever. [laughs] It just means not right now, not yet. Now's not the right time.
\n\nJORDYN: Exactly.
\n\nCHAD: And I think that's a healthy way of reframing it. You're trying to strike that balance between the opportunity and the future and what you're doing today to make the product successful and get it out the door.
\n\nJORDYN: And you can do a lot of work around those bright, shiny, attractive future possibilities that make it feel...you can basically say, "Not yet, and here's what will have to happen for it to become now." You can kind of nurture those opportunities over time, and what will be the criteria to make them something you want to pursue now. It can kind of sate your desire to pursue them if you nurture the plan over time. So it's not like you just say, "Not yet," you say, "Not yet, and here's the evolving set of things that will tell us it's the right time."
\n\nAnd having that shared alignment on the team around what those things are but keeping your eyes on them, actively monitoring the situation to be on the lookout when now is the time can satisfy your urge to be working toward that. I think that's what's really hard for founders who really have their eyes on this big opportunity is you can sometimes feel like you're not making any progress toward it because the progress is so incremental.
\n\nSo finding those practices that feed that thing for you, that keep you motivated and inspired to be working toward that long-term large goal, finding those ways to keep at it, to see the progress, keep refining why it is you're doing what you're doing and how it is you're getting there, can make you feel like you're pursuing and even when you're not [laughs] if that makes any sense. I just acknowledge that people need to do something. Just telling yourself or your team not yet is sometimes not enough because you're in it for that big vision, right?
\n\nCHAD: Right. Yeah, that's great. One of the things that stood out to me when we first met was the variety of different experiences that you've held, different positions, different roles, different things you've done. You started doing web development. You've done user experience, product management, you've been CTO, you've been CEO of companies. You did product lead and VP of product. That variety of experience, I think is more than I have. [laughs] You have held those different roles. How has that evolved for you in your career? What's been driving that forward for you?
\n\nJORDYN: I was always this product strategy person inside. I didn't necessarily know it. I didn't really even know. I mean, back in the early days of the web, a product mindset wasn't even really a thing, and advertising got a hold of the internet first. And so it was really about graphic design for a long time and a bunch of other things. But throughout that first decade that I spent as an engineer, as a front-end engineer, I was just constantly that annoying person on the team who was like, "Why are we building this? Who are we building it for? Why are we building this?"
\n\nBecause what I learned is as much as I liked to code, and I liked the puzzle of solving the problem of how to turn a design into a thing people could click on, that was really fun for me, but it was only fun for a while before I started to become really sad, disappointed that we would launch things that would be market failures in the sense of, yeah, we launched a thing, and we checked the box, but no one was using it.
\n\nAnd I would come back and say...and I was mostly doing agency work at the time, and so there was not a lot of follow-up. We'd launch something, and then it was, like, move on to the next project. I wanted to know, was this successful? Did people use it? Are people using it? Like, how are they using it? Is it easy to use? And I wanted to answer those questions. And then, when I started to do more of that follow-up work, and then I was finding that most of the things we were launching were failures by my standards. No one cared about them. No one was using them. They were hard to use.
\n\nAnd I wanted to make impactful things. And so I kept asking the questions, and I kept asking them earlier and earlier. This is how I ended up in user experience design. I was like, well, can we answer these questions first? Can we make a plan before we ever put pixels to screen, so to speak, [laughs] before we start building? Can we know something so that when we do build...which I had intimate understanding of how much work it is to build software. It's not nothing. It's a big investment of time and energy. And what I wanted increasingly was for that to be time and energy well spent for the entire team and for the universe. [laughs]
\n\nAnd so that's how I ended up...I think of it as like swimming upstream in the sense that there's still a lot of waterfall process going on in software. And I was just constantly asking why and for whom earlier and earlier in the process, just so that we could make sure that what we were building was "The Right It," to quote a book title that a lot of folks [laughs] in startup land have read.
\n\nLike, let's make sure it's "The Right It" before we invest a lot of time and energy, and, frankly, emotion into building something. That was really where this was coming from for me is that I think at heart, secretly or not so secretly, I'm still that engineer, that front-end engineer. And I want cool projects. I want to work on cool projects with cool people that are impactful. And I think that's true of most engineers. [laughs]
\n\nNo one is purely satisfied to just be given an assignment that they're supposed to execute without thinking about it. And getting into UX and then getting into product management was for me almost like a mission to make sure that by the time something got to engineering, it was a good idea. I just wanted to save engineers from terrible projects; that was my whole mission. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Well, at thoughtbot, we have a set of core values, and one of them is fulfillment. And in the writing around that, the phrase we often use is we want to work on products that we believe deserve to exist.
\n\nJORDYN: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: And that doesn't just mean that they have a positive impact on the world instead of a negative impact. But we're very intentional about the words we use, so there's a double meaning to that phrase. It's having a positive impact on the world, but it also means that it's the right product. This is what we should be building that it deserves to exist.
\n\nJORDYN: Yes, because you all know, we know how hard it is to make software. It's actually really hard. I think certainly building new products, you know, what a new product meant in 1920 is a very different thing than what [laughs] it means in 2022. And while it is a lot easier to bring new products into the world, like software products, internet products, it doesn't mean it's just easy. There's a lot of effort and resources that go into doing this, so let's make sure we're spending those things wisely.
\n\nIs the product idea good? Does it deserve to exist, but also, have we done our homework to validate that people want this, that they're going to use it? And to the extent that you can. There are limits to the ability of any team to forecast that. But when you bring more of this experimental mindset to it as soon as possible, it's like you up the odds that you'll end up building something valuable. And like you were saying about the word deserve, the word valuable to me is very broad, valuable to users, valuable to the business, valuable to the world. Let's create things of value if we're going to go to the trouble of creating things.
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\n\nCHAD: Have you found any tools, or techniques, or things that work particularly well for doing that?
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah, and it's probably not going to be all that satisfying. There are no shortcuts, I think, is what's challenging about this. [laughs] The tool and the process that I always start with and come back to is talking to customers and talking to users if those two people are not the same. Talk to people, not about your product idea; talk to them about their lives. Talk to them about what is difficult for them, what is easy for them, what they value, and you will seldom go wrong if you start and return to that process and truly listen.
\n\nThis whole thing of talking to customers and talking to users is an art in and of itself. It's not idle, you know; it's not just a thing you toss off once in a while. [laughs] It's a skill. It's an art. And that is where you begin in it. Now, that is not the whole thing. But if you're starting there or returning there, you can always do this. I talk to teams all the time who have whiffed on this step of the process, and it's fine. Like, people who are builders, especially entrepreneurs, just want to get in there and start making something, like, I get that.
\n\nCHAD: Well, I think it's the combination of really wanting to move quickly and get to something really, really quickly. But I also think there is an element of fear...
\n\nJORDYN: [laughs] Yes.
\n\nCHAD: that causes people so that these two things combined really set people up to not do this...
\n\nJORDYN: To not do this, yes.
\n\nCHAD: because they're afraid of what they'll learn. And so it's much easier to just say, "Well, I know what to build. Let's build it. And you don't need to actually talk to people who might tell you something that isn't aligned with what you think the product should be."
\n\nJORDYN: 100%, 100%. Getting over that fear is hard, and you probably will just have to fail really hard without getting over it. I mean, that was certainly my experience, I mean, like several times. [laughs] I tried to build things without talking to anyone about it. I also was one of these people that built something that...and I can get into the story, but I built something that was successful enough without talking to a single person about it. And it really sent me down a fool's path for a while because I thought that's how it worked. But yeah, that fear is real.
\n\nBut I think the thing that got me around it eventually and gets me around it now is there's the rational side of this which is, well, wouldn't you rather know sooner than later that something is not a good idea or this is not a pain point? Sure. But the more visceral, emotional thing that got me around it is good ideas are actually a dime a dozen. You'll have good ideas. You'll have ten good ideas tomorrow morning. Your one idea that you have decided to explore and build out and build a company around it won't be your only idea. It is not the only good idea. [laughs] You will have more of those. If you had 1, you'll have 10.
\n\nSo talking to users means you'll figure out...you'll have the opportunity to come up with more of those ideas, and one of them will be the winner. All of them are probably good ideas on some level. Having ideas isn't the problem. People are afraid of talking to customers and learning that their idea is not good, but you got to turn that on your head. You talk to customers to learn what they need, and then you'll have 20 ideas about how to solve that for them, solve that need.
\n\nThe real fool's path here is to get attached to your first one idea that you had to solve a problem. It's to get attached to your problem before you have validated it. That's another pitfall here. But then to think that the first thought you had and how to solve it is going to be your only good idea, nah, you have lots of good ideas; we all do. [laughs] You'll have more.
\n\nSo really just focusing on that pain point and listening to people and then really doing the work to generate more and more ideas. Even if you think you have a good solution now, it's always worth thinking about what other solutions might be constantly because your solution that you've come up with might have some feasibility issues. It might have other problems that you haven't seen yet. So it's always good to have more solutions in the hopper in case the one that you're pursuing right now doesn't turn out to be the right one.
\n\nCHAD: This is something that I don't know the answer to, and that is I do know you didn't originally start out as a developer, and it's not what your education is in.
\n\nJORDYN: [laughs] No.
\n\nCHAD: But how did you get into development?
\n\nJORDYN: [laughs] I was in college. This was just such a lucky, random thing. But I was in college, and I was in a band, a rock band. And this was early '98, maybe even fall '97. We were just at practice one day, and someone in the band was like, "We need a website." And this was when this was like a new thing that people did. [laughs] And everyone in the room just turned and looked at me. And I was like, "Oh, I'm making the website? Okay."
\n\nCHAD: Why? Were you a tech person in their mind?
\n\nJORDYN: I don't know, I guess because I seemed scrappy and capable even then. I have no idea. But I was like, all right, I'll see what I can figure out. So I wandered into the computer lab and just went to the person running the computer lab and was like, "Hey, how do I make a website?" [laughs] And this guy whose name I don't remember which is horrible, I really wish I could reach out to this guy and be like, "Hey, I have a career because of you, thank you."
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJORDYN: He was like, "Oh, cool. Here's what you do." And he basically opened up Netscape and was like, "Hey, there's like a..." there was like an editor. I don't even remember what it was called now. If you recall, there was an editor in Netscape. He was like, "Here's the basics of this. And here's a website," which was the... [laughs] What was the name of this website? All of the articles on this website were titled something like, so you want to make a webpage? Or so you want to make an interactive image replacement? Or so you want to host a website on a server? Whatever, like, that was all the articles.
\n\nAnd that website taught me how to code, and that guy put me on a path, and I just immediately was like, this is the most fun thing ever. I was like, I love this. [laughs] And it wasn't like two months before I had built the websites for a couple of departments on campus. My mom had a recruiting business at the time. She was like, "Can you make my recruiting business website?" It was just like, off to the races, which was great. But I graduated into the dot-com bust, which meant I could not get a job doing this. It's like entry-level folks always see a recession coming first, right?
\n\nCHAD: Right.
\n\nJORDYN: And everyone was like, "Oh my God, you can write HTML. You're going to get a six-figure job immediately," whatever. [laughs] And I was like, that is not what's happening here. I would have a job interview at someplace, and then they'd stop calling me. And I would find out that the company went under the day after I interviewed. That was what was happening.
\n\nSo I couldn't get a job, a professional job doing this for a while. But I kept doing it on the side basically for my friends and family and eventually managed to get back into some professional [laughs] aboveboard real roles doing this work, but it was a struggle at first. And it was only just because I just really loved doing it, which, again, to circle back to something we talked about before, was kind of a liability for me for a while. Liking coding makes you really unthoughtful about what you're coding because you're always happy to do it, right? [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Oh, I speak from personal experience, yes. [laughs]
\n\nJORDYN: Yes, right. I just wasn't thinking, is this a good idea? I was thinking great, cool; I get to code more. I love this. That was fine early on because I did get a lot of experience. And the first real job I got doing this work was at a company that was building websites for musicians, and our main client was Warner Brothers music. And so I got to build the My Chemical Romance website.
\n\nCHAD: Cool.
\n\nJORDYN: I got to build madonna.com for the Confessions on the Dance Floor release and tour.
\n\nCHAD: That's really cool.
\n\nJORDYN: Like, it was really fun. And basically, I got to build a new website every two weeks for three years which was amazing bootcamp for me. The designers there were just fantastic. I learned more than I can ever even probably understand about doing that. But partly what I learned was [laughs] this feeling of this was where that feeling began where I was like, is this the right thing? Are we building the right thing? Or is this successful? That's when I started to ask those questions: is what we're doing what people want? So anyway, it was very fun. I got into it because I was in rock bands, which is strange. I don't think people typically find lucrative careers being in rock bands. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: I talk to a lot of people over the years through our apprenticeship program, through different things where there are people out there who connect with programming like you did and like I did. The difference is that, for whatever reason, I had that experience when I was 10. [laughs] And other people just never get the opportunity to be exposed to that until later. But it's remarkable when it happens, and you get that connection where it just connects with you at a level that almost nothing has before. It's like a constant dopamine hit when you're programming.
\n\nJORDYN: Oh, it is. Yeah, I used to joke that, basically, I felt like I got to play video games for a living because that's what it felt like. It was just one puzzle game after another. It just didn't feel like work. I got to go to work every day and solve what felt like really interesting problems and puzzles. And at the end, there was a thing people used or could look at. It just felt like I'd hit pay dirt. I felt so lucky to have found it.
\n\nBut yeah, I haven't done this since the pandemic. But for several years before that, I was a Girls Who Code instructor, and being able to pay that experience forward and help middle school, high school-aged girls who hadn't necessarily had this experience yet find themselves in coding, that was really the mission me and my co-teacher had decided that was really what we were after. We didn't care if they walked away from doing this with any hard coding skills. What we wanted them to have in their minds was I can be a programmer, and that seems like fun or possible for me. That was all we wanted.
\n\nAnd it was so amazing to see that moment where it clicked for them where they were like, "Oh, there's like a pattern here." And yeah, see that dopamine hit thing start to set up, you know, in their brains and know that it was only going to help them. I mean, I often said to them, "Major in whatever you want in college, but get a minor in computer science; that's where your job is. [laughter] Sorry to break this to you, but this is where your job is." [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Another thing that you've done is you've advised a lot of companies through a few different organizations: Underscore VC, the Harvard Innovation Lab. What makes a good advisor as opposed to a bad advisor?
\n\nJORDYN: This is a really hard question, actually, because it's not often entirely clear in the moment whether a given advisor is...if you feel a lot of rapport with someone and they're helping you out in the moment, that's great. But often, one finds that something an advisor told you that did not land at all at the time comes back later to be something that's really useful. So I want to say up front that what makes a good advisor is really idiosyncratic to the founder, and to the advisor, and to the moment they find themselves together in.
\n\nSo with that as a big caveat, I think what I bring to this, what I go out of my way to bring to it, is that I've been in the trenches. I know what that feels like. And I trust founders, like, my job there is to just add some perspective. I've participated in building over 30 products, so I can help them. They might be doing their first product or business, and all I'm there to do is bring a bunch of other experience for them to pick some insights from. It's not actually my job, I don't think, to pre-filter that stuff for them.
\n\nI'm very practical and hands-on. They bring a problem to me, and I'm like, "Okay, here's three times I've seen that situation before. And here are three things that happened." And I basically multiply their historical experience that they can draw from; that's sort of what I bring to this.
\n\nThere's another thing here when I've had valuable advisors, this thing that's kind of hard to articulate. But it's like, often early on, what you need is just someone to take you seriously, just really take you seriously as a founder and a leader. I go way out of my way to make it clear that I am doing that with them and that it is my assumption 100% that they will rise to that occasion, that they will figure out who they need to be, what resources they need to bring to bear in order to be successful.
\n\nAnd doing that, taking them seriously and taking their ideas seriously, taking their experiences seriously, and really demonstrating that I think they have what it takes and I think that they can rise to this occasion, I think is probably the most valuable thing because most people don't do that. They come to your idea looking to tear it down, and I think it's well-meaning. They want to stress test you and your idea. That's all well and good. But, I mean, I'm often advising underrepresented founders and what they need is confidence. They need to be built up, not torn down.
\n\nThat doesn't mean I don't bring skepticism and help them try to think evermore clearly about what it is they're doing and why; I definitely do that. But there's this baseline of I think you are capable of doing this. I think you are a person who gets to do this; that is not in question for me. And that alone I think is probably the most valuable thing you can get from an advisor, [laughs] is just someone to take you seriously.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. So for folks who have been familiar with thoughtbot for a while, we have a lot of advice out there in the world for how to build products, how to validate things, exercises to run, all that kind of stuff. And we bundle all of that up in what we call our playbook. And now, as we're sort of almost 20 years into this now, that's a big resource.
\n\nAnd so we're doing something new, which is extracting the information that we have specifically targeted towards those earliest stages of a new product or a business into a separate playbook. You're taking your wisdom, and you're going to be able to add it to that as well. And it's going to be a little bit more targeted. So we've just launched that. And you can find it at thoughtbot.com/research-strategy-playbook. I would encourage folks to check that out.
\n\nJordyn, when it comes to sharing, we're big at that at thoughtbot, and I'm excited to have you as part of that. Is there something that you think our approach from the fact that we're a consulting company or an agency makes it either in good ways or bad ways different than joining a product company and what you might do in a new role, or in sharing, or in working on things that we work on?
\n\nJORDYN: Yeah. I mean, I'm sure I'll have more to say about this when I've been here for a year. Having been here for a month, [laughter] this answer might be suspect. So far, anyway, the way I think about the differences here is that our role in working with product companies is to help them build the muscles to do this work, not to do it for them because they need to be able to do it going forward. We're not going to embed with them for the rest of time.
\n\nSo that's a big difference, and that's both good and bad in the sense that we can maintain a certain amount of perspective because we can bring a kind of insider-outsider, like, we've done this lots and lots of times. We've seen the myriad ways that can go. And so we can bring that experience to bear while also remaining somewhat, I mean, objective is maybe a problematic word here, but some flavor of that while remaining outside of the everyday operational reality of the business. So that can be a really helpful perspective.
\n\nBut I think the sort of risk there that I see is not being able to fully appreciate...that's the wrong word, but it's like, maybe not having the credibility we could have because we aren't going to be around to see this thing through. There's really, especially at early stages with projects, you really need people who are in it to win it, in it for the long haul. And so, I can see this looking like a tough sell for certain founders.
\n\nBut from what I know so far, what I know about myself, what I know about thoughtbot so far is that that couldn't be further from the truth for us. We really are invested in folks' long-term success. And we do want to leverage our ability to focus and stand slightly outside of day-to-day operations to help them gain that perspective. But that is really the give and take, I think, of being a consultant rather than being part of the company.
\n\nCHAD: Now, it does make us...there are companies out there that that's not the goal, the goal is to make you dependent on them.
\n\nJORDYN: Yes, right. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: That definitely is one of the unique things about thoughtbot is that that is not our goal. Our goal is to teach people to do what we do. But we do sometimes get criticized for, in those early stages, exactly that. It's like, where's your sense of urgency or your passion about this? And actually, we do have it. It's just the analogy I often use is we're like a professional sports team. [laughs] We make it look easy because we're really good at it.
\n\nAnd a lot of environments are ones where in order to make things happen, you need to create an environment of stress or those kinds of things. And that's what people are used to. And so when they start working with us, and they don't see that, they think something is wrong.
\n\nJORDYN: Yes, yes. 100%. And that is a huge cultural challenge with working with startups in general, where there is a real fire-fighting mentality. Like, let's get in there and make some stuff happen. Things are shifting constantly, and you've got to react. And I'm working 80-hour weeks to just make sure everything gets done. And I would hope..., and I've seen this to a certain extent in my month here so far, but the goal is for us to help folks work smarter, not harder, in the sense that more output does not mean more success.
\n\nWe do have the experience of having worked on so many products, each of us individually and then collectively as a company. It is our goal, and it is my personal sincere hope that we can help these companies see how to do this work better and more sustainably without burning yourself out. If you happen to be successful while focused on this kind of work more output, it's only by chance you were successful there. It wasn't because you worked that hard. [laughs] And it's hard to see.
\n\nThere is a lot of like hustle culture stuff out there that makes you feel like unless you are burning your candle at both ends, you're not doing it right. I think thoughtbot has the depth of experience to say," No, we can say otherwise," and to help companies figure out how to do that. I can absolutely see what you mean that people are like; these people don't have the fire in their belly, which couldn't be further from the truth. But it does feel very different from the inside.
\n\nCHAD: I feel like I could talk to you all day, [laughs] but we have to keep the episode somewhat within our normal constraints. Jordyn, thank you so much. If folks want to follow along with you or get in touch with you, where are the best places for them to do that?
\n\nJORDYN: So I am @skybondsor S-K-Y-B-O-N-D-S-O-R pretty much everywhere that you might want to... [laughter] A friend of mine gave me that nickname years ago. That's my handle pretty much everywhere. I spend a lot of time on Twitter, so that's probably the best place if you want to follow me or interact with me. But I'm also on LinkedIn and a lot of other places.
\n\nCHAD: And you can subscribe to the show, find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter at, not as an exciting username as @skybondsor, but @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot; thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Jordyn Bonds.
Sponsored By:
Heather Maio-Smith is the Co-Founder, President, and Chief Visionary Officer at StoryFile, bringing global audiences an interactive ecosystem that records and preserves human conversations in a way that removes the traditional boundaries of time and space.
\n\nVictoria talks to Heather about why this product needed to exist in the world, supporting human connection and storytelling, and the journey to get funding, expand, and plan what's next for StoryFile.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Heather Maio-Smith, Co-Founder, President, and Chief Visionary Officer at StoryFile, bringing global audiences an interactive ecosystem that records and preserves human conversations in a way that removes the traditional boundaries of time and space. Heather, thank you for joining us.
\n\nHEATHER: Thank you for having me, Victoria. I'm excited to have a conversation with you.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, I am really excited to learn about StoryFile and your product Conversa. Tell me a little bit about it.
\n\nHEATHER: You did a great job on the introduction; thank you. The one thing that I would add is that it's very important that people know that this is video. And this is the differentiator between us and maybe a traditional chatbot, for example. We are video-based. That could mean an actual human being creates the content. The video content is always preferable. [laughs] But you can also do it in some sneaky other ways too [laughs], so it's very interesting.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. So as I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, you can record a video of a conversation and then use Conversa to turn that into an interactive video where a user has the freedom to ask their own questions.
\n\nHEATHER: Correct. Essentially, what you do is you answer whatever questions that you like. You're in charge of the storyline script. You create all the questions. The interviewee answers all of the questions via video record, and then all of those video clips are put into a database. Anyone can ask you basically any conversation. Most of them are open-ended conversations. If there are shorter, like, let's say you've only [inaudible 02:03] questions, and it's kind of a focus, you have a point, and it's a focused line of questioning, then that's obviously going to be you can't ask anything.
\n\nBut we usually have the individual introduce it and say, "For example, this is my bio. I've answered a few questions about my life and my career and me personally, so feel free to ask me anything about my career or my life." Then the individuals will know what the parameters are for that conversation. And you could just ask anything, learn anything anytime you want. So it's in real-time for you.
\n\nNo going on Google and searching through 20 pages to get an answer anymore. You should be able to talk the ideas. You should be able to talk to someone who's lived that experience or has that knowledge, ask them a question, and find out the information that you want to find out, or get to know somebody that you would never have the opportunity to talk to.
\n\nVICTORIA: What an interesting idea. And what led you to think that this was a product that needed to exist in the world?
\n\nHEATHER: Well, they say that necessity is the mother of invention. I happened to be in Holocaust education back in the early 2000s. And one of the main things that the entire field was concerned about is what are we going to do when the Holocaust survivors are no longer alive? They had spent over 60 years in the public telling their story, talking to students, for example the public. They've done documentaries; they've done books; they've done interviews. The Shoah Foundation at USC has 55,000 narrative interviews. So it's very well-documented.
\n\nBut the one thing that we weren't able to replicate yet, and this is what we were worried about, was they couldn't make that personal connection. And how do they make that personal connection? It's through people asking their own questions and actually engaging with those individuals that that's when the real magic happened. I mean, that's when people felt connected to these individuals and that story, that history. That was what I didn't want to lose after they had passed away.
\n\nAnd so I thought to myself, there's got to be a way to replicate the Q&A, you know, the question and answer conversation where I can ask my own question, which leads me to learn deeper than if I was passively watching a video or even listening to a lecture.
\n\nSo I went to the Shoah Foundation, and I said, "There's got to be a way to do this." They said after many conversations, "Okay. You might not be crazy. [laughs] or as crazy as we thought you were at the beginning. But we still don't know how you're going to do it. So go away and figure out how you're going to do it, and then come back to us when you've figured it out." That was my challenge.
\n\nAnd luckily, I found an amazing team to help us all figure out how to do it. And we got to the part where we had to take these individuals, like, the video recordings, and we had to have people actually ask them questions and have these conversations so that we could populate the database for a more accurate conversation. And so I was in the public for a couple of years all over the world.
\n\nAnd the one question I kept getting the most was, "This is amazing. Can I do this myself? And can I do this with my parents? Can I do this with my grandparents? Can I do this with the founder of our company?" And people came to me, and they had so many ideas. "This would be great for this. Oh my gosh, could you imagine doing this?" And after a while, you say to yourself, okay, what would it look like if we did this for everyone? What would it look like if we made it ubiquitous, allow everybody to replace their FAQs?
\n\nEvery leader in this country, every CEO, every influencer, or any individual who's got something to say that we can all learn from, which, by the way, is pretty much everyone on the planet. They can tell their story, and they can talk about their experiences, and we can learn from that. Even saving time on interviewing future candidates in person. You narrow it down to 10 people. You have them do StoryFiles. You actually engage with their StoryFile, and then you just choose two that you want to meet in person, possibly saving you hours and hours of time.
\n\nIt's just about asking questions and getting an answer in the moment when you need it, not waiting for an email, not going through 20 pages of Google. And it's also about connecting with a real person instead of these chatbots that everybody's trying to move away from. And I think they're trying to move towards avatars because they're more visual, but it's still not a human being. So it's still kind of an automated voice, and they're not real. And there's no emotion, and you don't have any body language.
\n\nSo what if you could just ask a person? You probably get asked some of the same questions. And in the next 2 minutes, you could probably think of 10 questions that you get asked almost daily. So what if you did a StoryFile? You answered all those ten questions and maybe more, and then you never had to have that conversation again. Think of all the time that those people now, if they get in front of you, they don't have to waste time asking any of those typical, basic questions. They can just get right into a deeper conversation with you.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love it. Yeah, I'm already thinking in the back of my mind, like, oh, I could use these for what if you're trying to show what it's like to work at thoughtbot? And you just want to ask someone at thoughtbot a question, and you could play with StoryFile. Yeah, I think it's enormously useful. And I love the story starts with a hugely impactful mission of capturing those stories. And I wonder how that experience of the importance of storytelling has had on your ability to get funding and get this project through as a founder.
\n\nHEATHER: It's been a journey. [laughter] First of all, let me say that I think it has been slightly more complex than most startups because, from the onset or the get-go, or whatever you want to call it, this technology has been meant for consumers and businesses alike. So you've got a B2C play, and you've got a B2B play, which is very complicated for investors to understand maybe and really get the vision in its totality.
\n\nSo it's been a struggle to communicate it in a way that people really understand this can be done. You're creating a whole new medium. This is not an I'm creating a new rocking chair type of thing that's better than the other chair that you had. I'm creating a chair. It's a new kind of chair. And you have to take these people on a journey to understanding how much better their lives can be and how much time they can save if they just invest a little bit of time, which they kind of have to do anyway.
\n\nI mean, look at it, you spend so much time writing FAQs for a website and finding all the answers, and then putting them all together and putting them in the website. You could spend the same amount of time actually getting all those questions, recording yourself answering them. In fact, it probably would take less time. Record the answer, and then, bam, you have it. Everybody can actually talk to you, ask you those questions, and you can guide them. And they get the benefit of actually feeling as though they've talked to a human being. They've connected with you emotionally, and everyone's better off for it.
\n\nThe investors have been...they either absolutely get behind you 100% and love what you're doing and want to be on the journey with you, or they are a bit we'll wait and see. There hasn't been one investor, though, that has said, "You're not onto something. I don't believe in what you're doing, and your idea is not going to work," not one. So we know it has legs. And we just have to build the body and get it from the walking stage, walk to run.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And I see you have quite an impressive client list already. And you recently won an award for best software as a service product for education and nonprofits in the learning and CSR category, so that's impressive. And I want to hear more about how that process has been scaling from you had one initial customer who was the Holocaust Museum, and now you've expanded, and what kind of lessons you might have about that experience, getting to the walking stage, and what you have planned coming ahead.
\n\nHEATHER: I don't know if I have much advice, actually. [laughter] I could probably use more advice than I can give. Every day, you know, you take it one day at a time, and you move forward. We haven't forgotten where we started, which was in enabling audiences through museums and public spaces to enable them to have these conversations with people that they would not normally get to talk to.
\n\nThere's this studio professional services side of this as well. Then you have, all right, we had to have a back end. We had to have a platform in order to run our business. What if we made that platform available to other companies? Okay, what does that mean? And how does one build that? Then is it built intuitively and easily enough for people to actually do what they want to do with it, which is create these interactive conversational video AI modules (We call them StoryFiles.) for a variety of different cases?
\n\nI mean, think about every kid can talk to one of the best teachers in the world and learn from them. Every possible person that wants to go on a date could actually talk to potential people. And those people don't even know that they're having these first-date conversations with them, so it saves you that first meeting, that awkward first date. But it also allows you to make a better choice for that first date or, like I said, screening or even onboarding and corporate training.
\n\nAll those manuals that people have written everything and all the information that's in there, nobody wants to go to a manual and look up an answer. No, you're going to go to someone that you think knows the answer, and you're going to ask them. So why not just pull out your phone and do that on your phone, you know? Like, Walmart has this amazing thing that they call financial mentor. They did StoryFiles for new store managers. It's all around answering those questions that you would get as a new manager that you would have running the day-to-day of a Walmart store.
\n\nSo they can literally pull out their phone. They've got their own Walmart learning management system on the phone, and they can talk to a financial mentor and ask them questions. So, what do I do if I have a register that's this? Or I forgot what the form is that you use for this. Or what do I do if my endcaps aren't really churning enough buzz and businesses I think it should be? All those questions that you're going to ask in the first couple of years of taking on a new position. So it's basically anywhere that you have questions and people normally give you answers, you can do a StoryFile.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, it sounds like a real change to the way people do business and how you can automate some of those conversations and provide a more human touch too.
\n\nHEATHER: Yeah, it's all about that human touch, isn't it? The one reason I think that people now, you know, for the last three years, everybody's been obsessed with these avatar chatbots, but they're not really solving the problem. The problem is the chatbots don't seem real. You don't feel as if you're having a conversation with an actual person, and that's what frustrates you the most because they don't understand. They don't seem like they're being empathetic. They don't seem like you're relatable. And there's also the uncanny valley, and then the automated voices, and the cadence, and all of that. So this solves all that.
\n\nVICTORIA: 80% of communication is non-verbal, right?
\n\nHEATHER: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, but nobody really thinks about that. [laughter] We do digital recreations; notice I'm not calling it an avatar because we do an authentic version of an individual. And most of the time, 99% of the time, the person's not alive anymore. But we work with the archives; we work with the foundations; we work with the families. Nothing that we have that digital recreation say is anything that we've made up. It's always based on what they've actually said and the way that they've said it.
\n\nSo we review, like, we did one digital recreation that we reviewed over 1,700 hours of video. The key thing was getting an actor that physically looked like the individual, and it has to be a method actor. The method actor also reviews some of those videos and really gets a sense of who that individual was. Then they form the basis for the digital recreation for the body language, for the facial expressions, for the cadence of the voice.
\n\nAnd then, you do the face mapping and other special effects that you might have to do to the body. Then you do the voice cloning so that you get the person's actual voice. So it's a really detailed process. And what you end up with is probably the most authentic version of an individual that can be created.
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\n\nVICTORIA: You mentioned avatars. But that process also sounds different than what I've heard about deepfakes as well. Do you want to --
\n\nHEATHER: Yeah. Well, our digital recreations are based on more authentic...they're probably as authentic as you can get to the actual individual. It's not based on, you know, avatars still; even if you do one that's based on 10 minutes of video of yourself, you will still have the uncanny valley. You will still have the broken cadence. You'll still have an automated voice where it sounds automated. They are getting better, and they'll continue to get better.
\n\nBut there's no avatar that you can honestly tell me is going to accurately convey emotion and those non-verbal cues. They can't do it. A computer cannot intuit it. You have to have the individual. You have to have something based from the actual person in order to get the most accurate you can get. An avatar who you're basically treating as a visual chatbot you're just typing in the answers. So there's no emotional connection. There's no body language or cadence that you can connect with in that.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. And I can clearly see the...we've talked about the business use cases a little bit. But on the individual consumer side, I'm thinking about making a StoryFile of my grandpa from Pasadena and the value what that would be like to have that family member have a realistic portrayal of them for future generations to interact with.
\n\nHEATHER: It's priceless. And he's still alive, right?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah.
\n\nHEATHER: So it's not a realistic portrait. It is him. You could do a StoryFile life. You'd go to StoryFile life. You'd pick out all the questions you wanted to ask him, add your own questions. Every family has got those five stories that individuals always tell at the dinner table during Thanksgiving or something. So you want to make sure you capture all of those.
\n\nLet's say that he responds to a question that you've asked. And the beauty of it, by the way, is these are questions that you probably would not normally ask somebody in daily conversation. So you really get a sense of who they are from day one, you know, from their childhood all the way through their life today.
\n\nIf they say something that you're like, wait a minute, stop, [laughs] you've got to explain that, you can add a question, add a follow-up question and just say, "Can you tell me more about that?" or "Explain yourself. Like, how did you come to that? How did you make that decision? What went into this move and this shift?" or whatever you want to know more about. "Or how did that affect your family?" you know, so many questions. So it allows you to ask all of those questions.
\n\nYou record your grandfather, which, by the way, is an amazing experience for you; forget him, [laughter], but it's an amazing experience for you. And I guarantee you; you will learn something. To date, I have not had one family say that they haven't learned something or heard a story that they never heard before.
\n\nSo it's a really interesting process. And you feel bonded to that individual after you're done talking and doing this interview in a way that you didn't before. Then you have that recording of this individual that your grandchildren, your great-grandchildren will be able to get a sense of who this individual was, and what their life was like, and who they were to you even.
\n\nThat's priceless to be able to give, you know, we hang on, you go into ancestry.com; you pull up a ship's manifest. And you see your relative's signature. Okay, fine. But what do you really know about that person? Nothing. You know they came over on a ship. [laughs] And you see maybe how their signature looked, but that doesn't really tell you anything. So we want to change all that. We want to flip it all out. We want you to know all of your ancestors. We want your kids to know everybody and learn from them.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And it's an interesting intersection of this very core human emotion to AI technology or this leading-edge technology. And I wonder, what has surprised you in the technology building side about what ways it easily supports making this human connection and other ways where it's still a challenge to make everything connect?
\n\nHEATHER: I would have loved to have gotten at least three PhDs [laughs], and then I can think over the last 12 years. Okay, so I started this in 2009. So you got to remember there was no Skype, really. I mean, Skype came into its own...it existed in 2008, but it didn't really come into its own until 2012.
\n\nSpeech recognition wasn't really a thing. We knew it was going to happen, but it wasn't there yet. That was one of the big things that people had to really take a leap of faith with me that we could even get this to work. We didn't know if it would do what we thought it would do. And we were doing this completely...it was a passion play. It was; let's see if we can do this type of thing. We actually did. It did fulfill what I envisioned it being and doing. It did finally fulfill, and I realized that in 2016, so it took that long.
\n\nAnd in order to make it ubiquitous for everyone, and you know this because you build software, and you help people with products: to do something for the general public and to make it ubiquitous, and make it scalable, that's a whole nother ballgame. We're taking a process that was incredibly manual...everyone says, "Oh, AI is going to take over the world." No, it's not. No, it's not. It's not even close. It's still so manual. It's based on data. And whatever you manually put in is what you get out.
\n\nIn order to take that and make it automated in whatever ways you can and then keep dreaming about a day where, for example, the follow-up questions that I talked to you about. One day on our roadmap, God willing, next year, you will be able to get that follow-up question actually suggested to you because the computer will know what that individual has said. And the computer will figure out here's a question that you might want to ask, which has never been done before.
\n\nAnd there are several things that we have on our roadmap that haven't been done before, but we've been in this zone where you know, other companies have tried. One of our advisors was president of Google Americas. And when she came on board with us, she said, "Google tried to do something similar to this in the early 2000s." But it was just a little too early, and they couldn't figure it out. So they scrapped the whole thing.
\n\nAnd with software, timing has a lot to do with it. Your expectations and what you think you can do and when you can do it have to be constantly monitored and constantly re-evaluated. And do the best you can with what is technically available at the moment, and then plan to see how you might make that evolve or improve that or add to that. For example, the field of natural language processing it's at one stage right now, but we have things that we want to do with it and advances that we'd like to see happen. And we're going to have to make those happen if we want to see those happen.
\n\nVICTORIA: You had both the timing and the need and just enough technology progression to make something happen when you did, and you were able to grow it. It sounds like your family is also involved in helping you along the journey. And I was curious to hear about how that has been for you and --
\n\nHEATHER: Okay, so it's not really fair because I grew up in a family-owned business. I'm totally used to it. Everybody asked me, "What's it like working with your husband, and what's it like?" You know, along this journey, we've had various family members working for us, and honestly, that's mostly been a necessity. They happened to be the most skilled and the most talented people to do the job at the moment that I had access to. They got it, you know, it's sort of like the game, okay, tag, you're it. [laughs]
\n\nSome of them have gone on to do other things; one started her own app called Camber. The other started a PR agency and is doing very well. The other went on to do structural engineering, and the other one is still working for us. And Stephen's my husband's oldest, and I have told her many times even though she does want to go to law school at some point, I said, "No, I'm never letting you leave. [laughter] You're never leaving me."
\n\nYeah, it's kind of not fair because we happen to have the ideal situation where Stephen and I are both passionate and have a very clear vision of what we want to do and how to get there, which I think you do need. We respect each other tremendously. I'm in awe of him almost every day. I can see where in a lot of families, it would be problematic but somehow not for us. It worked really well.
\n\nWith investors, it is kind of tricky because you don't want to seem like you're a mom-and-pop shop, either. That's definitely not what we are. We're very focused, and we're very intentional. To some investors, it might seem like we're all over the place because of the B2C and the B2B thing, but it's really not. We explained to them that we're actually building one thing, and that's conversational video. That's what we're doing. It's a big vision, that's all, and it's a massive market.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I believe it. I mean, having people in your corner who believe in your vision and you have respect for working for each other, whether they're your blood family or your chosen family, that's what really you need to be successful. And I think it's a common theme we see across people who are able to create these products is that they have a team around them. [laughs] It's never just one person.
\n\nHEATHER: Yeah, no, it's never just one person. And I've been really, really fortunate. You talk about family that you've chosen. I've been really fortunate to have a lot of the team members who were on this journey with me back in 2010. So that's how far we all go with this and trying to evolve this technology and build this medium and this way of communicating. We're in it. We're all in it for better or worse.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I agree. And I assume that that amount of loyalty from your team over that long time is a pro point for investors as well. And I'm curious, so if you could record a StoryFile for yourself now to send back in time to when you were first starting this up, I wonder what questions you would ask yourself [laughs] to be able to give you the advice you needed when you were just starting.
\n\nHEATHER: To give me advice now?
\n\nVICTORIA: If you were going to create a StoryFile for when you were starting out if you could be able to ask yourself questions from the future. [laughs]
\n\nHEATHER: I think it would probably be very interesting to see where I was at, and what I was thinking, what we were dealing with at the time because I think it's some of the things you forget, you know, how you were feeling. We did a lot of video recording back in the early days, especially around different milestones and then different lows and highs.
\n\nBut if I could give myself some advice now, knowing what I know now, it would be your typical don't give up. There are days when you feel like that's it; I can't go any longer. It's not sustainable. You just don't know how it's going to turn out. And you have customers that you're really, really...we're very customer-oriented, so we work really closely with them to make them successful. And there have been times when what they've wanted to do hasn't been something that we were able to achieve entirely.
\n\nSo I would say just keep your head down, keep doing the work every day. Keep moving forward, and just believe in how you're ultimately going to change the world with this. So I think that I believed that 100% ten years ago as well. [laughs] I probably would have said the same thing, actually.
\n\nThere was a woman that had told me she wanted to do a StoryFile with her 10-year-old. And then she wanted to do the same script every five years, but especially do the same thing right before they go to college and then when they come back when they've finished college and do the same interview. I said, "It's a brilliant idea, but why specifically before they go to college and when they get back?" She says, "I want them to see how much they've changed." That makes me cry every time. It's so true.
\n\nI don't know if you have kids; between Stephen and I, we have five, and they're all 20 to 31. And that time in their lives, from 17 to 22 to 24, you change so radically. I mean, it's almost like you go back, and it's almost like you've got a one-year-old to see how much they changed by the time they're six. It's that radical. I thought that was just a beautiful thing on her part to think of, you know, think of doing.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that sounds great. I don't have any kids myself. I do have a two-year-old and a one-year-old niece and nephew. Maybe we'll create one for them when they get a little bit older.
\n\nHEATHER: Well, then you have to do...is your grandfather their great-grandfather?
\n\nVICTORIA: No, he's my husband's grandpa, actually.
\n\nHEATHER: Because when you do your grandfather, then they'll get to know them. You know, there's something about our identity, and it's made up of our parents, you know, our lives, our influences on our lives, and everybody that lived before us. So our point is, why not get to know those people the best way you can? And is that by reading their story? Is it listening to a voicemail that they left you before they passed away in order to get a sense of who they are? Or is it a video of them on a vacation, you know, a video clip? Or is it a story?
\n\nOr would you want a StoryFile where you can actually have a conversation? You can feel as if you're sitting down at a kitchen table, talking and asking them questions about their life. We want you to do it with everybody, [laughs] even your boss.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nVICTORIA: Right? I think it's a hugely powerful way to connect with people. And if I can get my grandpa to stop watching tennis for long enough to do it, I'll do it. [laughs]
\n\nHEATHER: I definitely guarantee you can do that. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Right? I think we can. I think we can do it. I think you'll enjoy it as much as I will. So I really appreciate you sharing this capability with us. And is there a way you want to shout out how people can connect with the tool?
\n\nHEATHER: Go to storyfile.com. If it's for your family, for you personally, go to StoryFile Life from that website. And if you're a business, you can go to Conversa also from that website and ask for a free demo.
\n\nVICTORIA: Excellent. And is there anything you want to give as a final takeaway to our listeners today?
\n\nHEATHER: It's easy to do. And it's always better to personally connect with someone if you can. Give them the opportunity to really see you, and listen to you, and hear you, the real you. And it doesn't take a lot of time. Everyone has a story to tell or knowledge to impart, experiences to talk about. There's no one on the planet that doesn't, honestly. But you probably doing these podcasts every one you talk to you learn from. It's sharing our knowledge. It's sharing humanity's experiences and knowledge so that we absorb that and we have that. It influences us, hopefully, in a good way.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think that's beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing with us and being with us here today.
\n\nHEATHER: Thank you for having me. Keep up the great work, you guys.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, thank you. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Heather Maio-Smith.
Sponsored By:
Will Larry, Software Developer at thoughtbot, joins Giant Robots as host! 🎉
\n\nWill talks about how he got into tech, how everything is going so far at thoughtbot, interviewing at thoughtbot previously, but not getting the job, and why he decided to interview again (and snagged the job!)
\n\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel.
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is our brand new third co-host, Will Larry. Will is a React and React Native developer at thoughtbot. And we're so excited to have him join us as a co-host of the show.
\n\nCHAD: Will, thank you so much for joining us. Congratulations and welcome. Woo-hoo.
\n\n[applause]
\n\nWILL: Thank you for having me. I'm excited.
\n\nCHAD: Will, I was so excited when I put out the call for people to join as co-hosts, and Victoria raised her hand, and then you did as well. You were on parental leave when all that started to happen. And so congratulations again on your new family member, and I'm glad we could finally have you join us.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, I was excited about it. When I thought about joining, there are two things that came about: the excitement of joining and just the fear of it.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: And I was like, I need to do this. I need to do this because it will make me better. So I'm excited to be here.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's a lot of change to navigate in one year, Will. [laughs] How's that got going for you, and how's everything so far in your first time here at thoughtbot?
\n\nWILL: Yes, change, change, change, that's what has been this year. I changed and started working at thoughtbot, our third kid. This year, we moved to Florida, just a lot of change. But I've learned along the way that change is life, and so we just embraced it. And I'm hoping that we're kind of settling out a little bit, but it's been good. It's been great for our kids. I think they're ready for some consistency and just the same thing over and over for a little bit. But it's been good. And we made it through. We're on the other side.
\n\nCHAD: Was there a grand plan to all the change? Like, did you have everything planned out in advance? Or did it all sort of just happen one thing after the other?
\n\nWILL: Yes. If you know anything about me, I'm a very big planner. My wife, my spouse she is the one that pushes me to be more spontaneous, but this was too big to be spontaneous, so it was definitely planned. It actually got changed. We were supposed to move in September, but with the birth of my son, we decided to move it up and move sooner.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. I'm going to ask you the same question but about your career. So you made a big change from operations into mobile development, and was that part of a grand plan, or did you happen upon it? How did you make that change?
\n\nWILL: That change was kind of out of desperation. I was in operations working for a nonprofit; I loved it. My spouse was working at the same company, and I was a promotion ahead of her. It was an amazing opportunity. But the teams are so small that we couldn't be on the same team. So they had multiple locations throughout the country. And you don't have to step off the team, but if she's going to take this promotion, you have to step off the team. There potentially is a way that, down the road, you can come back.
\n\nAnd Katie is my spouse. She has been so supportive of everything that I've ever done. And I just felt this was a time, a great time for me to show that I support her in everything she did. But it was probably one of the toughest times in my life. I didn't have a job. I thought that I can easily jump back into it and find a job. I ended up working at a clothing store, which is not my strong suit. I really struggled working there. I think I worked there a month, and I was like, I can't do this. And then, I went to work at a different company, a travel insurance company, and so I would process the data.
\n\nI was miserable, and that's an understatement. I was so miserable. One day my spouse came in, and she said, "Hey, we got to change this. You're not doing well. Let's dream a little bit." And normally, that's not my personality. Normally I'm like Xs and Os. I know what's coming. And I was so out of it. I was like, let's do this. And she asked me a couple of questions. And one of the questions was, "If you could do anything, what would you do?" I thought about it.
\n\nAnd I came from a small town in Louisiana. And I never had the opportunity to work with computers. It was just the resources weren't there. And so that was one of the things I said, "Hey, I want to work with computers in any way that I can." She was like, "Go figure it out, whatever it takes." And then I told her I was like, "It's going to cost some money for me to do this," because I went to bootcamp. And she was like, "Go do it. Let's invest in you. Let's make this happen."
\n\nI ended up going through the bootcamp and came out on the other side. Interesting story; it's interesting how things come back around. My first interview was at thoughtbot. I bombed it. [laughter] I wasn't on thoughtbot's team at that point. But the way that it was handled, I got a glimpse of the culture.
\n\nI remember walking out that day and saying I'll be back. I will be back to be a part of this company because I bombed it. But they still spent time with me explaining things, teaching me the things that I bombed. And so I was like, wow, that's what I want to do in this field. So yeah, that's how I got into development. Here I am.
\n\nCHAD: Was there anything that surprised you about development, about the tech world?
\n\nWILL: Yes, yes. I think the biggest thing was the growth in development. So in any of my other jobs, I was able to take in expectations and make a plan and, like, okay, check off. I can knock that out and be successful. And I tried that in development, and every one of my bosses would say, "Slow down. It takes time. It takes time." And I just didn't realize how long it would take for me to grow in my coding skills.
\n\nThat was the biggest surprise for me because I just couldn't come through, and okay, I got it, let's go. Because I'm very big on I know my expectations, okay, I can meet those expectations, and then I'll go over and beyond. But I couldn't do that in this field. And I think that was the biggest surprise for me that I couldn't just show up at work and do my task and still be a great developer.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And I love that you're sharing that story. Because with the people I've worked with at Women Who Code, it's a very common struggle when you're starting out in your first time as a developer and getting comfortable with being not great for the first six months or a year, or however long it takes. And I think that it's important to share that and make sure that other people feel the same way. And you might feel that way for a long time and maybe forever [laughs] if you keep switching up your roles in tech.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, definitely. And it was a very humbling experience also because, in most of my other jobs, I was the leader. I was the person that had direct reports and leading people. But in this job, I started at the very bottom. I remember there were days when I couldn't even get through my tasks and had to really lean on others to help me through it. You know, my senior developer, I was like, "Hey, it's that time. I got some questions for you." And so, I had to learn how does Will learn and what's the best way for me to excel in this field? The things that I've done before, I couldn't do it going forward.
\n\nCHAD: Bootcamps are pretty popular. And they are an avenue that certainly didn't exist when I was learning. You said when you were having the conversation with your wife that it sounds like that was just right there as the path forward. But did you consider an alternative path?
\n\nWILL: Yeah. So at that time, I felt like there were probably three paths: there was the bootcamp, there was the college degree, and there was the self-learning path. So the college degree, I thought about it because, at that time, I felt like a lot of companies were still like, hey, you have to have a degree to be hired and be a part of it. So whenever I thought about going back, I didn't know if it was going to cut me off from other jobs, so that was one of the reasons why I really decided, or I really thought about going the degree route.
\n\nAnd I decided against it because I did a lot of research, and there were companies at that time that were like, you don't need a college degree because I already had a college degree in sports medicine. And so most of them were like, you just have to have a degree. And I was like, okay, I don't think I'm going to be stuck in this position because I didn't have a computer science degree.
\n\nThe other way was self-taught. I didn't think that I could put in the time and the work. One thing I learned very, very early on is there were a lot of things that I just didn't know about the field. I didn't know HTML. I didn't know CSS. I didn't know how to get a server started. I didn't know anything. If I knew anything about computers, it was more about the hardware side of it and nothing about the software side. So I knew very quickly that the self-learning aspect wouldn't work for me, and so that's kind of why I decided to go the bootcamp route.
\n\nI asked a lot of mentors, "Hey, what's the best way?" And they're like, "Bootcamp." And they're like, "Go to the one that teaches you the most." And so, at that time, the bootcamp I went to was two years long, but I was able to probably eight months in get a job in tech. And then, I completed it while going to work at that tech company.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that's great.
\n\nCHAD: I mean, this might be a little bit of a hot take, but I'm going to say it anyway, which is I think that if you don't know how to code at all, or very little university programs, computer science programs aren't really set up to teach you that in a great way. It's more likely that someone with that level of experience will really struggle going into a computer science program not really having coded before.
\n\nBootcamps are much more conducive to learning from scratch along with other people. It's not even necessarily about the programs, but going into a CS degree, so many people already do know how to program. And so it's really hard for them to make a well-balanced program that works for everybody.
\n\nWILL: I totally agree with that.
\n\nVICTORIA: I could see it. It's both ways. The way I've always heard it explained is a computer science degree will teach you a lot about the underlying principles that you might wish you knew later after you have finished your bootcamp. But a bootcamp will prepare you for on-the-job performance like day one, more likely to just give you the full breadth.
\n\nI mean, I've taken computer science 101 at University of Maryland, and I learned HTML, CSS, how to get a basic website up, some simple things that can get you up to speed. I think you could start from scratch and go that route. But it's hard to keep it up to speed with current technology trends in a college atmosphere. And so I think you'll see a lot of partnerships with universities now. And obviously, bootcamps were created to address that gap.
\n\nYou got a job while you were still in bootcamp, and I'm curious how that went for you, that job search. That's a huge hurdle to just getting from the bootcamp to the first job; if you have any advice for people who are in a similar situation right now.
\n\nWILL: Yes, it was very challenging at the time. I think I applied to over 400 positions. My biggest thing that I would say is stay the course, hang in there. Keep going. There are a lot of down days that I was like, am I supposed to be in this field? Am I supposed to be here? The other thing that I learned very quickly was resources. Who did I know in the tech field? Who could I reach out to help me with it? Because that was another thing that I learned. I thought whenever I first took my junior dev job that I would come in and be able to really implement tickets and items.
\n\nAnd I quickly realized that they hired me because of my character and who I was going to be long-term and that I can offer very little at that moment of, hey, coming in, and doing a ticket, and really shipping a feature I cannot do that as a junior dev. But hopefully, in six months or two, three months, however long their time period was that I could ship a portion of a feature.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And that's always been...for me, someone hiring for technical roles and the entry-level point, sometimes I would prefer someone who has professional experience. Especially working in consulting, you have the ability to communicate your ideas well and work with clients, but you're still learning the technology side of it. That's a lot less than hiring a new college graduate who hasn't ever worked before [laughs] but may have a computer science degree. It's a totally different value that you're bringing to the role, I think.
\n\nCHAD: And that persistence really pays off. Just to make sure that timeline is clear, I think you interviewed with us for the first time five years ago or so, so I really appreciate you sticking with it and eventually coming back to us. That makes me super, super happy.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, and one thing that I learned along the way is there are different companies out there, and depending on your purpose and your goal, there are great fits depending on what your goal is. And my goal in my career was to learn and to be with a great company that had a great culture.
\n\nAnd I felt like thoughtbot was a good fit for me with that because I want to enjoy the people that I work with. I want to get to know them. I want to help them be a mentor, be a mentee, and thoughtbot was a good fit with that. That was one of the reasons why I put it on my list of hey, whenever that opportunity comes back, apply, apply, apply back to them.
\n\nCHAD: You originally interviewed with us as a Rails developer for a Rails development position. But along the way, you joined us as a React and React Native developer. So tell us a little bit about that journey along the way.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, so I did as a Rails developer, and I quickly realized that at that point in my career, Rails was harder for me to comprehend. There was nothing visual that I could really understand. And going back to what Victoria said with universities being able to keep up, at the end of my bootcamp, that was when React was on the rise. And so they actually released a module for React, and so I was able to really pick up that module.
\n\nAnd at that point, I thought React and front end was going to be a lot easier for me to comprehend and easier to get a job in the field, and so that's kind of why I went that front-end developer way. And then it's interesting now because I'm coming back around learning more Rails and, hopefully, be able to contribute to client work with the Rails side.
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\n\nMake the right decisions for tomorrow today. Get in touch at thoughtbot.com/liftoff.
\n\nCHAD: thoughbot's not the first agency that you worked at. Before you joined, you were working at another agency. Was there something in particular that gravitated towards this kind of work as opposed to working at maybe a technology startup working on a specific product?
\n\nWILL: Yeah. The two first jobs that I had in tech was typical software as a service products. I enjoyed it, but I felt like we were building on the same thing over and over again. And it was okay, but I know for me that I'm a big-time learner. And so I felt for me, I'm a big-time learner, and so I felt going the agency route would give me the opportunity to be exposed to different aspects of tech.
\n\nSo at the last agency, I did some Rails work. It was very, very minimal, but I was able to do that. I was able to learn a lot about React Native and React and probably worked on a handful of jobs. Even at thoughtbot, I've worked on jobs and contracts that range from a month to six months. And I know potentially, I can work on a contract for two years, but it still gives me enough change to where I feel like the tech field will not leave me behind.
\n\nSo I can work on a job or a contract for a year and then reset and say, "Oh, React released XYZ." And I can implement that into this new product or contract I'm working on. So that part right there is what really excited me about working for an agency and being a part of the company.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's a big part of that variety, even both on the tech side but also just being able to work with different people and not be bound always to the same thing is one of the reasons why I've been able to do this so long I believe.
\n\nWILL: That's a good point because I love meeting new people. I love getting to know them. And it gives me that opportunity to work for a client, get to know them, and stay in contact with them but even go to a new client. If I was working at a product, I'm with the same company inside the four walls of that company. And so I love that aspect of getting to meet new people and getting to help companies deliver their dreams to the world. I really enjoy that.
\n\nCHAD: And that's what you're going to get to do as part of the host of the show too.
\n\nWILL: Yes. I'm excited about that too.
\n\nVICTORIA: I was going to say the same. You're going to meet so many cool people. [laughs] I've already met a lot of really interesting people in the last two months. So let's ask you a fun question. You're meeting new people; maybe you're introducing a new podcast guest. What's your favorite icebreaker question to ask?
\n\nWILL: I think my favorite question to ask podcast guests is why they do what they do. And the reason why is because it's very interesting seeing what propels people to go and do the things that they do. I guess I'm a student of people and humans. I love understanding the greatest people like Tom Brady, Michael Jordan. I know that may be up for debate.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs]
\n\nWILL: But just what makes them click. Also, for our guests, there are so many different aspects and products that people are coming up with, and so it's amazing to hear why they're doing what they do. And a lot of them, I'm like, oh, why didn't I think of that? That's a great idea. [laughter] And so I think that's my favorite question by far is why do you do what you do?
\n\nVICTORIA: I like that, yeah. As soon as I come on, I'm like, "So you're the founder of this. And why did you do that? [laughs] Tell me." But it's always an interesting story, just the right person, and the right place, the right problem to solve, and the right group of people around them to figure it out.
\n\nWILL: Yeah, and definitely the sacrifice that they're making. Being a CEO or founder of a company is not a nine-to-five job. You're sacrificing a lot of time, a lot of effort, resources. So yes, why do you do what you do? Because you're sacrificing so much. So why did you do that to get to this point? I love it.
\n\nVICTORIA: We could ask Chad that. [laughs] Why did you start thoughtbot, Chad? [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: I ask myself that every day.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nVICTORIA: I know.
\n\nCHAD: No, I'm kidding. Oh, we have a whole episode on that we recorded for our anniversary with the original co-founders that I had, and we did the history of thoughtbot. So I like to point that out every once in a while, Episode 262 from February 12th, 2018. Time flies when you're having fun. I didn't think it was that long ago.
\n\nWILL: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: We're currently on Episode 442.
\n\nVICTORIA: I will say it is a productive podcast. There are a lot of great episodes that come out. I'm excited to have Will on to help share the experience of [laughs] creating them.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. And speaking a little bit of meta, this is the first time we've ever had three co-hosts. We have an appetite, the three of us, for trying some new things with this new sort of season that we're embarking on. But we also love the show as it is, and so we're going to keep things sort of going like they are with some rotations and doing some joint episodes and that kind of thing.
\n\nBut I wouldn't be surprised if, after a couple of months, we start to layer something new on. I'm not quite sure what that will be yet, whether it will be just maybe episodes with just the three of us, and not a guest, talking about some thoughtbot stuff or some things we want to talk about. Or maybe it could be something else. What do you all think?
\n\nWILL: I love that idea. I love being able to have different options and opening that out. I think it's a great idea. Like you said, I don't know what that looks like, but I'm excited that we have the opportunity to bring different aspects, different podcasts to our guests.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I'm already thinking of people I can voluntell at thoughtbot [laughter] and talking about topics that I'm interested in. [laughs] There's a lot we could do with that. And yeah, I think it'd be good to mix it up. How has working at thoughtbot supported your work-life balance with your family?
\n\nWILL: It's been amazing. At the time of this recording, I have three kids; their ages are three, two, and a couple of months. And so, from the very beginning of parental leave, being able to take that time and be with my son and take care of all his needs was amazing. And not having to worry about work, yeah, it was top-notch because I was able to really just focus on him and my other two kids. Because when you have a baby and other siblings, it gets tough, so I felt like most of my parental leave was just keeping my baby alive. [laughter]
\n\nThe older siblings were amazing and actually surprised me. I thought that they would be jealous, and why is this new human in our house taking your attention? But it was actually the exact opposite. They wanted to hold the baby.
\n\nVICTORIA: Aww.
\n\nWILL: They wanted to be with him. And so it was like, okay, I'll let you hold them, but I got to be here with you, and I got to help you. And my two older kids are very independent. And so that was tough, but it's amazing to see how much they love their younger brother.
\n\nVICTORIA: Aww.
\n\nWILL: Yeah. So that has been amazing. But to continue on the work-life balance, it has been really amazing working at thoughtbot because we are a remote culture, and especially the clients that I've worked with the flexibility of the schedule. So yes, we have meetings that I have to make it to and be a part of the team. But for the most part, as long as I get my work done, I am in a good position.
\n\nSo, to be honest, with the newborn, sometimes I'm up at midnight. And I'm able to work while I'm up with my son because that's the time that he wants to get up and eat and hang out, so I'm like, okay, let's hang out. So that flexibility has been amazing for me. I love the remote aspect of it because I am a big family person. So I love being able to be home with my kids as they're growing up, eating lunch with them, going on a walk with them. So yes, it has been amazing. To be honest, I don't know if I can ask for anything more than what thoughtbot provides to me as a parent. So I'm really thankful for that.
\n\nCHAD: That brings back a lot of memories for me because when our son was born, I also was up with him, and it would be one of those scenarios where you finally get him to sleep in the bounce chair or the chair, and you're like, okay, what do I do now? Because he's going to be up again at any moment. I was like, okay, I'll do some coding now, and it's like midnight, one in the morning, or whatever.
\n\nAnd I got a little bit of a reputation for these pull requests coming in at night but this general sense of understanding about why that's happening. And like, okay, now I'm not in in the morning because this was the schedule that I was on and a real flexibility and understanding of that. But it really brings back memories for me. I'm glad I'm well past that point now.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nWILL: And I am thankful that thoughtbot is thinking about those things. Like you said, you're past that point, but you still are thinking about those things. And that means a lot to me that it's not in your forethought, but it's still very important to have that culture. And you're remembering how it was when you were a parent. That means a lot to me.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And I think that if you look at the state of the October's reports and see when developers are actually submitting pull requests, the windows are much longer. So post-pandemic with that giant shift to remote work, you will see them in earlier hours of the day or later hours in the night, but there are longer breaks in between. And I think for knowledge work especially; it's hard to just work an eight-hour block and be able to constantly be outputting during that time. [laughs] So it makes sense from a work-life balance but also a productivity overall balance as well.
\n\nCHAD: That's really interesting. I hadn't seen that report, but it resonates with me as true or resonates with me. And we've always talked about the concept of sustainable pace, and when we were in offices, that often meant Monday through Friday, eight to five, nine to five. This is the schedule we're all keeping. And if someone was deviating from that, it was like, oh, you may not be working sustainably.
\n\nNow, in a remote environment, it is much more about flexibility and recognizing that as long as people are working in a sustainable pace, variety in hours and flexibility is totally okay. And like you said, Will, it's about the work that you're getting done. Like, if there's a problem with what I'm delivering or what I'm able to do, let's have that conversation. Conversation shouldn't be about when I'm working or the hours that I'm working, the amount I'm working.
\n\nWILL: And as a human, your first thought is, is this person working the hours they're supposed to? And I think that's the first thought for a lot of people. But the one thing that I do like about thoughtbot is that trust that we have with our developers. Okay, there may not be their eight-hour block during the day, but are they getting their work done?
\n\nIf they're getting the work done, why should I even say anything to them? Because they're being successful. That's what we asked them to do, get the work done. Are their clients happy? If their client is happy, I'm happy. And so I think that's one thing. The trust that thoughtbot has given to me as a developer means a lot to me, too, because I can work at midnight and still be productive and get my work done.
\n\nCHAD: I think it's telling. It's very rare for us to have a conversation with someone about maybe not working enough. It's almost always the opposite which is checking in with people and making sure that they're working sustainably.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm curious, Chad, about the policy of the four days of consulting and having Fridays for investment time; how that decision was made at thoughtbot. It's been a policy for a long time.
\n\nCHAD: Well, it comes from our value of continuous improvement. When we were 16 people, all designers, and developers, working client work five days a week, there was no time, strictly speaking, within a sustainable pace to reflect on the way that we were working, to make improvements, to learn new things, to create the open source that we were doing and the blogging that we were doing.
\n\nAnd so, if we were honest with ourselves, a lot of that stuff was happening outside of normal working time in addition to the five days of client work we were doing. And so I think it was Joe Ferris who said, like, if we believe in continuous improvement, we've got to carve out time and sustainable pace. We've got to carve out time within the week in order to be able to do those things.
\n\nThe truth of the matter is a lot of our most popular open-source projects were actually created at a time when we didn't have investment time. And so, like I said, I think if we're honest with ourselves, we were really stretching ourselves thin at that point. So working on client work four days a week made us not only more sustainable but ultimately because it's continuous improvement...and so when you have a feedback cycle where short iterations, you can reflect on the way that you're working or that you have time set aside for making improvements, it makes you better the rest of the time as well.
\n\nAnd so now it's part of our secret sauce is the reason why we're able to be as productive as we are in that time that we have is because of that time set aside for improvement. The reason why we're able to make the open source and the blog posts that we do which make us have a bigger reputation and make our client work faster because we're able to use open source is because of that schedule. And so it's a self-fulfilling virtuous cycle of improvement. So that's where it comes from and why we've been so successful with it.
\n\nWILL: And that's actually a huge reason why I wanted to work at thoughtbot because one of my first jobs in tech, I would come in and knock out tickets, and I really thought that that was enough to be successful in the field. But then I quickly learned that yes, I was learning the tickets that I was working on, but there was so much more that I did not know, did not understand. And at that point, that's when I had my first son, and we were working five days a week.
\n\nSo the biggest question for me was, with a newborn son and working five days a week, when do I fit in that investment time? When do I learn the outside aspect that we're not doing in the everyday grind of our tickets? And I quickly learned that I had to do it on the weekends. I had to do it outside of the hours that I was working. And it was hard. It was not a sustainable pace.
\n\nWith thoughtbot, one of my criterias was being able to learn, being able to be mentored, and thoughtbot checked that off. But not only did they check that off, but they gave me the opportunity, the space to be mentored and to learn. So I love Friday's investment time. It's been huge in my career.
\n\nCHAD: I'm giving away all the secrets here, but it's okay because it's the execution that matters. But the reason why at your previous places you weren't necessarily able to do that is because that's not their product. Their product was the SaaS product that you were working on. And so when a company like that thinks about where they're investing, the investments that they're going to make are in their product.
\n\nIt's one of the reasons why we call investment time investment time because I wanted to communicate that we are investing in our product, but our product is the way that we work. It is our people and our process, and the tools that we use. And so when we think about making investments as a company, that's what the product that we're in the market with is. And so we can afford to invest in improving that product in the same way that a company whose product is software can afford to invest in that software and has trouble investing in making the people, and the process, and the tools, and the culture better.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense to me. And what I've found so far in having that four-day workweek and the way it comes out from a pricing perspective for clients is that you're paying maybe a premium for hours. But your team is able to get more work done in less amount of time because it's so focused. And then overall, you're getting a higher quality work product in a short amount of time. And I think it just makes a lot of sense to me.
\n\nAnd I've been working in many consulting companies, and they all have this problem. They all want to put out a lot of knowledge articles and blog posts and be known for their expertise but don't commit to making that time to it or spending the money on investing in people to build those products. So it's something I was really excited about for thoughtbot too. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: This is great fodder for future episodes with just the three of us. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah.
\n\nWILL: Love it.
\n\nCHAD: Will, thanks again for joining the show. If we don't get to play D&D again together for a while, this will be a secondary substitute for that.
\n\nWILL: Yes, I do plan on coming back. That was huge also, so don't count me out.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nCHAD: I won't count you out.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode, along with a complete transcript, at giantrobots.fm.
\n\nVICTORIA: If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm.
\n\nCHAD: You can find me on Twitter @cyptel.
\n\nVICTORIA: And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nCHAD: And, Will, if folks want to follow along with you, where are all the places that they can do that?
\n\nWILL: Yeah. You can follow me on Twitter @will23larry. And I would love to interact and chat with you.
\n\nCHAD: Is the 23 for Michael Jordan?
\n\nWILL: Always.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nCHAD: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nVICTORIA: Thanks for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Sponsored By:
Leonard S. Johnson is the Founder and CEO of AIEDC, a 5G Cloud Mobile App Maker and Service Provider with Machine Learning to help small and midsize businesses create their own iOS and Android mobile apps with no-code or low-code so they can engage and service their customer base, as well as provide front and back office digitization services for small businesses.
\n\nVictoria talks to Leonard about using artificial intelligence for good, bringing the power of AI to local economics, and truly democratizing AI.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Leonard S. Johnson or LS, Founder and CEO AIEDC, a 5G Cloud Mobile App Maker and Service Provider with Machine Learning to help small and midsize businesses create their own iOS and Android mobile apps with no-code or low-code so they can engage and service their customer base, as well as provide front and back office digitization services for small businesses. Leonard, thanks for being with us today.
\n\nLEONARD: Thank you for having me, Victoria.
\n\nVICTORIA: I should say LS, thank you for being with us today.
\n\nLEONARD: It's okay. It's fine.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. So tell us a little more about AIEDC.
\n\nLEONARD: Well, AIEDC stands for Artificial Intelligence Economic Development Corporation. And the original premise that I founded it for...I founded it after completing my postgraduate work at Stanford, and that was 2016. And it was to use AI for economic development, and therefore use AI for good versus just hearing about artificial intelligence and some of the different movies that either take over the world, and Skynet, and watch data privacy, and these other things which are true, and it's very evident, they exist, and they're out there.
\n\nBut at the end of the day, I've always looked at life as a growth strategy and the improvement of what we could do and focusing on what we could do practically. You do it tactically, then you do it strategically over time, and you're able to implement things. That's why I think we keep building collectively as humanity, no matter what part of the world you're in.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. So you went to Stanford, and you're from South Central LA. And what about that background led you to pursue AI for good in particular?
\n\nLEONARD: So growing up in the inner city of Los Angeles, you know, that South Central area, Compton area, it taught me a lot. And then after that, after I completed high school...and not in South Central because I moved around a lot. I grew up with a single mother, never knew my real father, and then my home life with my single mother wasn't good because of just circumstances all the time.
\n\nAnd so I just started understanding that even as a young kid, you put your brain...you utilize something because you had two choices. It's very simple or binary, you know, A or B. A, you do something with yourself, or B, you go out and be social in a certain neighborhood. And I'm African American, so high probability that you'll end up dead, or in a gang, or in crime because that's what it was at that time. It's just that's just a situation. Or you're able to challenge those energies and put them toward a use that's productive and positive for yourself, and that's what I did, which is utilizing a way to learn.
\n\nI could always pick up things when I was very young. And a lot of teachers, my younger teachers, were like, "You're very, very bright," or "You're very smart." And there weren't many programs because I'm older than 42. So there weren't as many programs as there are today. So I really like all of the programs. So I want to clarify the context. Today there's a lot more engagement and identification of kids that might be sharper, smarter, whatever their personal issues are, good or bad. And it's a way to sort of separate them. So you're not just teaching the whole group as a whole and putting them all in one basket, but back then, there was not.
\n\nAnd so I just used to go home a lot, do a lot of reading, do a lot of studying, and just knick-knack with things in tech. And then I just started understanding that even as a young kid in the inner city, you see economics very early, but they don't understand that's really what they're studying. They see economics. They can see inflation because making two ends meet is very difficult. They may see gang violence and drugs or whatever it might end up being. And a lot of that, in my opinion, is always an underlining economic foundation.
\n\nAnd so people would say, "Oh, why is this industry like this?" And so forth. "Why does this keep happening?" It's because they can't function. And sometimes, it's just them and their family, but they can't function because it's an economic system. So I started focusing on that and then went into the Marine Corps. And then, after the Marine Corps, I went to Europe. I lived in Europe for a while to do my undergrad studies in the Netherlands in Holland.
\n\nVICTORIA: So having that experience of taking a challenge or taking these forces around you and turning into a force for good, that's led you to bring the power of AI to local economics. And is that the direction that you went eventually?
\n\nLEONARD: So economics was always something that I understood and had a fascination prior to even starting my company. I started in 2017. And we're crowdfunding now, and I can get into that later. But I self-funded it since 2017 to...I think I only started crowdfunding when COVID hit, which was 2020, and just to get awareness and people out there because I couldn't go to a lot of events.
\n\nSo I'm like, okay, how can I get exposure? But yeah, it was a matter of looking at it from that standpoint of economics always factored into me, even when I was in the military when I was in the Marine Corps. I would see that...we would go to different countries, and you could just see the difference of how they lived and survived.
\n\nAnd another side note, my son's mother is from Ethiopia, Africa. And I have a good relationship with my son and his mother, even though we've been apart for over 15 years, divorced for over 15 years or so or longer. But trying to keep that, you can just see this dichotomy. You go out to these different countries, and even in the military, it's just so extreme from the U.S. and any part of the U.S, but that then always focused on economics.
\n\nAnd then technology, I just always kept up with, like, back in the '80s when the mobile brick phone came out, I had to figure out how to get one. [laughs] And then I took it apart and then put it back together just to see how it works, so yeah. But it was a huge one, by the way. I mean, it was like someone got another and broke it, and they thought it was broken. And they're like, "This doesn't work. You could take this piece of junk." I'm like, "Okay." [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Like, oh, great. I sure will, yeah. Now, I love technology. And I think a lot of people perceive artificial intelligence as being this super futuristic, potentially harmful, maybe economic negative impact. So what, from your perspective, can AI do for local economics or for people who may not have access to that advanced technology?
\n\nLEONARD: Well, that's the key, and that's what we're looking to do with AIEDC. When you look at the small and midsize businesses, it's not what people think, or their perception is. A lot of those in the U.S. it's the backbone of the United States, our economy, literally. And in other parts of the world, it's the same where it could be a one or two mom-and-pop shops. That's where that name comes from; it's literally two people.
\n\nAnd they're trying to start something to build their own life over time because they're using their labor to maybe build wealth or somehow a little bit not. And when I mean wealth, it's always relative. It's enough to sustain themselves or just put food on the table and be able to control their own destiny to the best of their ability.
\n\nAnd so what we're looking to do is make a mobile app maker that's 5G that lives in the cloud, that's 5G compliant, that will allow small and midsize businesses to create their own iOS or Android mobile app with no-code or low-code, basically like creating an email. That's how simple we want it to be. When you create your own email, whether you use Microsoft, Google, or whatever you do, and you make it that simple. And there's a simple version, and there could be complexity added to it if they want. That would be the back office digitization or customization, but that then gets them on board with digitization.
\n\nIt's intriguing that McKinsey just came out with a report stating that in 2023, in order to be economically viable, and this was very recent, that all companies would need to have a digitization strategy. And so when you look at small businesses, and you look at things like COVID-19, or the COVID current ongoing issue and that disruption, this is global. And you look at even the Ukrainian War or the Russian-Ukrainian War, however you term it, invasion, war, special operation, these are disruptions.
\n\nAnd then, on top of that, we look at climate change which has been accelerating in the last two years more so than it was prior to this that we've experienced. So this is something that everyone can see is self-evident. I'm not even focused on the cause of the problem. My brain and the way I think, and my team, we like to focus on solutions. My chairman is a former program director of NASA who managed 1,200 engineers that built the International Space Station; what was it? 20-30 years ago, however, that is. And he helped lead and build that from Johnson Center.
\n\nAnd so you're focused on solutions because if you're building the International Space Station, you can only focus on solutions and anticipate the problems but not dwell on them. And so that kind of mindset is what I am, and it's looking to help small businesses do that to get them on board with digitization and then in customization. And then beyond that, use our system, which is called M.I.N.D. So we own these...we own patents, three patents, trademarks, and service marks related to artificial intelligence that are in the field of economics.
\n\nAnd we will utilize DEVS...we plan to do that which is a suite of system specifications to predict regional economic issues like the weather in a proactive way, not reactive. A lot of economic situations are reactive. It's reactive to the Federal Reserve raising interest rates or lowering rates, Wall Street, you know, moving money or not moving money. It is what it is. I mean, I don't judge it. I think it's like financial engineering, and that's fine. It's profitability.
\n\nBut then, at the end of the day, if you're building something, it's like when we're going to go to space. When rockets launch, they have to do what they're intended to do. Like, I know that Blue Origin just blew up recently. Or if they don't, they have a default, and at least I heard that the Blue Origin satellite, if it were carrying passengers, the passengers would have been safe because it disembarked when it detected its own problem.
\n\nSo when you anticipate these kinds of problems and you apply them to the local small business person, you can help them forecast and predict better like what weather prediction has done. And we're always improving that collectively for weather prediction, especially with climate change, so that it can get to near real-time as soon as possible or close a window versus two weeks out versus two days out as an example.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. Those examples of what you call a narrow economic prediction.
\n\nLEONARD: Correct. It is intriguing when you say narrow economic because it wouldn't be narrow AI. But it would actually get into AGI if you added more variables, which we would. The more variables you added in tenancies...so if you're looking at events, the system events discretion so discrete event system specification you would specify what they really, really need to do to have those variables.
\n\nBut at some point, you're working on a system, what I would call AGI. But AGI, in my mind, the circles I run in at least or at least most of the scientists I talk to it's not artificial superintelligence. And so the general public thinks AGI...and I've said this to Stephen Ibaraki, who's the founder of AI for Good at Global Summit at the United Nations, and one of his interviews as well. It's just Artificial General Intelligence, I think, has been put out a lot by Hollywood and entertainment and so forth, and some scientists say certain things. We won't be at artificial superintelligence.
\n\nWe might get to Artificial General Intelligence by 2030 easily, in my opinion. But that will be narrow AI, but it will cover what we look at it in the field as cross-domain, teaching a system to look at different variables because right now, it's really narrow. Like natural language processing, it's just going to look at language and infer from there, and then you've got backward propagation that's credit assignment and fraud and detection. Those are narrow data points.
\n\nBut when you start looking at something cross-domain...who am I thinking of? Pedro Domingos who wrote the Master Algorithm, which actually, Xi Jinping has a copy of, the President of China, on his bookshelf in his office because they've talked about that, and these great minds because Stephen Ibaraki has interviewed these...and the founder of Google Brain and all of these guys.
\n\nAnd so there's always this debate in the scientific community of what is narrow AI what it's not. But at the end of the day, I just like Pedro's definition of it because he says the master algorithm will be combining all five, so you're really crossing domains, which AI hasn't done that. And to me, that will be AGI, but that's not artificial superintelligence. And artificial superintelligence is when it becomes very, you know, like some of the movies could say, if we as humanity just let it run wild, it could be crazy.
\n\nVICTORIA: One of my questions is the future of AI more like iRobot or Bicentennial Man?
\n\nLEONARD: Well, you know, interesting. That's a great question, Victoria. I see most of AI literally as iRobot, as a tool more than anything, except at the end when it implied...so it kind of did two things in that movie, but a wonderful movie to bring up. And I like Will Smith perfectly. Well, I liked him a lot more before --
\n\nVICTORIA: I think iRobot is really the better movie.
\n\nLEONARD: Yeah, so if people haven't seen iRobot, I liked Will Smith, the actor. But iRobot showed you two things, and it showed you, one, it showed hope. Literally, the robot...because a lot of people put AI and robots. And AI by itself is the brain or the mind; I should say hardware are the robots or the brain. Software...AI in and of itself is software. It's the mind itself. That's why we have M.I.N.D Machine Intelligence NeuralNetwork Database. We literally have that. That's our acronym and our slogan and everything. And it's part of our patents. But its machine intelligence is M.I.N.D, and we own that, you know; the company owns it.
\n\nAnd so M.I.N.D...we always say AI powered by M.I.N.D. We're talking about that software side of, like, what your mind does; it iterates and thinks, the ability to think itself. Now it's enclosed within a structure called, you know, for the human, it's called a brain, the physical part of it, and that brain is enclosed within the body. So when you look at robots...and my chairman was the key person for robotics for the International Space Station. So when you look at robotics, you are putting that software into hardware, just like your cell phone. You have the physical, and then you have the actual iOS, which is the operating system.
\n\nSo when you think about that, yeah, iRobot was good because it showed how these can be tools, and they were very, in the beginning of the movie, very helpful, very beneficial to humanity. But then it went to a darker side and showed where V.I.K.I, which was an acronym as well, I think was Virtual Interactive Kinetic technology of something. Yeah, I believe it was Virtual Interactive Kinetic inference or technology or something like that, V.I.K.I; I forgot the last I. But that's what it stood for.
\n\nIt was an acronym to say...and then V.I.K.I just became all aware and started killing everyone with robots and just wanted to say, you know, this is futile. But then, at the very, very end, V.I.K.I learned from itself and says, "Okay, I guess this isn't right." Or the other robot who could think differently argued with V.I.K.I, and they destroyed her. And it made V.I.K.I a woman in the movie, and then the robot was the guy. But that shows that it can get out of hand.
\n\nBut it was intriguing to me that they had her contained within one building. This wouldn't be artificial superintelligence. And I think sometimes Hollywood says, "Just take over everything from one building," no. It wouldn't be on earth if it could. But that is something we always have to think about. We have to think about the worst-case scenarios.
\n\nI think every prudent scientist or business person or anyone should do that, even investors, I mean, if you're investing something for the future. But you also don't focus on it. You don't think about the best-case scenario, either. But there's a lot of dwelling on the worst-case scenario versus the good that we can do given we're looking at where humanity is today. I mean, we're in 2022, and we're still fighting wars that we fought in 1914.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. Which brings me to my next question, which is both, what are the most exciting opportunities to innovate in the AI space currently? And conversely, what are the biggest challenges that are facing innovation in that field?
\n\nLEONARD: Ooh, that's a good question. I think, in my opinion, it's almost the same answer; one is...but I'm in a special field. And I'm surprised there's not a lot of competition for our company. I mean, it's very good for me and the company's sense. It's like when Mark Zuckerberg did Facebook, there was Friendster, and there was Myspace, but they were different. They were different verticals. And I think Mark figured out how to do it horizontally, good or bad. I'm talking about the beginning of when he started Facebook, now called Meta.
\n\nBut I'm saying utilizing AI in economics because a lot of times AI is used in FinTech and consumerism, but not economic growth where we're really talking about growing something organically, or it's called endogenous growth. Because I studied Paul Romer's work, who won the Nobel Prize in 2018 for economic science. And he talked about the nature of ideas. And we were working on something like that in Stanford.
\n\nAnd I put out a book in 2017 of January talking about cryptocurrencies, artificial intelligence but about the utilization of it, but not the speculation. I never talked about speculation. I don't own any crypto; I would not. It's only once it's utilized in its PureTech form will it create something that it was envisioned to do by the protocol that Satoshi Nakamoto sort of created. And it still fascinates me that people follow Bitcoin protocol, even for the tech and the non-tech, but they don't know who Satoshi is.
\n\nBut yeah, it's a white paper. You're just following a white paper because I think logically, the world is going towards that iteration of evolution. And that's how AI could be utilized for good in an area to focus on it with economics and solving current problems. And then going forward to build a new economy where it's not debt-based driven or consumer purchase only because that leaves a natural imbalance in the current world structure.
\n\nThe western countries are great. We do okay, and we go up and down. But the emerging and developing countries just get stuck, and they seem to go into a circular loop. And then there are wars as a result of these things and territory fights and so forth. So that's an area I think where it could be more advanced is AI in the economic realm, not so much the consumer FinTech room, which is fine.
\n\nBut consumer FinTech, in my mind, is you're using AI to process PayPal. That's where I think Elon just iterated later because PayPal is using it for finance. You're just moving things back and forth, and you're just authenticating everything. But then he starts going on to SpaceX next because he's like, well, let me use technology in a different way. And I do think he's using AI on all of his projects now.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. So how can that tech solve real problems today? Do you see anything even particular about Southern California, where we're both at right now, where you think AI could help predict some outcomes for small businesses or that community?
\n\nLEONARD: I'm looking to do it regionally then globally. So I'm part of this Southern Cal Innovation Hub, which is just AI. It's an artificial intelligence coordination between literally San Diego County, Orange County, and Los Angeles County. And so there's a SoCal Innovation Hub that's kind of bringing it together. But there are all three groups, like; I think the CEO in Orange County is the CEO of Leadership Alliance. And then in San Diego, there's another group I can't remember their name off the top of my head, and I'm talking about the county itself. So each one's representing a county because, you know.
\n\nAnd then there's one in Northern California that I'm also associated with where if you look at California as its own economy in the U.S., it's still pretty significant as an economic cycle in the United States, period. That's why so many politicians like California because they can sway the votes. So yeah, we're looking to do that once, you know, we are raising capital. We're crowdfunding currently. Our total raise is about 6 million. And so we're talking to venture capitalists, private, high net worth investors as well.
\n\nOur federal funding is smaller. It's just like several hundred thousand because most people can only invest a few thousand. But I always like to try to give back. If you tell people...if you're Steve Jobs, like, okay, I've got this Apple company. In several years, you'll see the potential. And people are like, ah, whatever, but then they kick themselves 15 years later. [laughs] Like, oh, I wish I thought about that Apple stock for $15 when I could. But you give people a chance, and you get the word out, and you see what happens.
\n\nOnce you build a system, you share it. There are some open-source projects. But I think the open source, like OpenAI, as an example, Elon Musk funds that as well as Microsoft. They both put a billion dollars into it. It is an open-source project. OpenAI claims...but some of the research does go back to Microsoft to be able to see it. And DeepMind is another research for AI, but they're owned by Google.
\n\nAnd so, I'm also very focused on democratizing artificial intelligence for the benefit of everyone. I really believe that needs to be democratized in a sense of tying it to economics and making it utilized for everyone that may need it for the benefit of humanity where it's profitable and makes money, but it's not just usurping.
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\n\nVICTORIA: With that democratizing it, is there also a need to increase the understanding of the ethics around it and when there are certain known use cases for AI where it actually is discriminatory and plays to systemic problems in our society? Are you familiar with that as well?
\n\nLEONARD: Yes, absolutely. Well, that's my whole point. And, Victoria, you just hit the nail on the head. Truly democratizing AI in my mind and in my brain the way it works is it has opened up for everyone. Because if you really roll it back, okay, companies now we're learning...we used to call it several years ago UGC, User Generated Content. And now a lot of people are like, okay, if you're on Facebook, you're the product, right? Or if you're on Instagram, you're the product. And they're using you, and you're using your data to sell, et cetera, et cetera.
\n\nBut user-generated content it's always been that. It's just a matter of the sharing of the economic. That's why I keep going back to economics. So if people were, you know, you wouldn't have to necessarily do advertising if you had stakeholders with advertising, the users and the company, as an example. If it's a social media company, just throwing it out there, so let's say you have a social media...and this has been talked about, but I'm not the first to introduce this. This has been talked about for over ten years, at least over 15 years.
\n\nAnd it's you share as a triangle in three ways. So you have the user and everything else. So take your current social media, and I won't pick on Facebook, but I'll just use them, Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter. Twitter's having issues recently because Elon is trying to buy them or get out of buying them. But you just looked at that data, and then you share with the user base. What's the revenue model? And there needs to be one; let me be very clear. There has to be incentive, and there has to be profitability for people that joined you earlier, you know, joined the corporation, or become shareholders, or investors, or become users, or become customers.
\n\nThey have to be able to have some benefit, not extreme greater than everyone else but a great benefit from coming in earlier by what they contributed at the time. And that is what makes this system holistic in my opinion, like Reddit or any of these bloggers. But you make it where they use their time and the users, and you share it with the company and then the data and so forth, and whatever revenue economic model you have, and it's a sort of a three-way split. It's just not always equal.
\n\nAnd that's something that I think in economics, we're still on a zero-sum game, I win, you lose sort of economic model globally. That's why there's a winner of a war and a loser of a war. But in reality, as you know, Victoria, there are no winners of any war. So it's funny, [laughs] I was just saying, well, you know, because of the economic mode, but Von Neumann, who talked about that, also talked about something called a non-zero-sum game when he talked about it in mathematics that you can win, and I can win; we just don't win equally because they never will match that.
\n\nSo if I win, I may win 60; you win 40. Or you may win 60, I win 40, and we agree to settle on that. It's an agreement versus I'm just going to be 99, and you'll be 1%, or I'm just going to be 100, and you're at 0. And I think that our economic model tends to be a lot of that, like, when you push forth and there needs to be more of that.
\n\nWhen you talk about the core of economics...and I go way back, you know, prior to the Federal Reserve even being started. I just look at the world, and it's always sort of been this land territorial issue of what goods are under the country. But we've got technology where we can mitigate a lot of things and do the collective of help the earth, and then let's go off to space, all of space. That's where my brain is focused on.
\n\nVICTORIA: Hmm. Oh yeah, that makes sense to me. I think that we're all going to have to evolve our economic models here in the future. I wonder, too, as you're building your startup and you're building your company, what are some of the technology trade-offs you're having to make in the stack of the AI software that you're building?
\n\nLEONARD: Hmm. Good question. But clarify, this may be a lot deeper dive because that's a general question. And I don't want to...yeah, go ahead.
\n\nVICTORIA: Because when you're building AI, and you're going to be processing a lot of data, I know many data scientists that are familiar with tools like Jupyter Notebooks, and R, and Python. And one issue that I'm aware of is keeping the environments the same, so everything that goes into building your app and having those infrastructure as code for your data science applications, being able to afford to process all that data. [laughs]
\n\nAnd there are just so many factors that go into building an AI app versus building something that's more easy, like a web-based user form. So just curious if you've encountered those types of trade-offs or questions about, okay, how are we going to actually build an app that we can put out on everybody's phone and that works responsibly?
\n\nLEONARD: Oh, okay. So let me be very clear, but I won't give too much of the secret sauce away. But I can define this technically because this is a technical audience. This is not...so what you're really talking about is two things, and I'm clear about this, though. So the app maker won't really read and write a lot of data. It'll just be the app where people could just get on board digitalization simple, you know, process payments, maybe connect with someone like American Express square, MasterCard, whatever. And so that's just letting them function. That's sort of small FinTech in my mind, you know, just transaction A to B, B to A, et cetera.
\n\nAnd it doesn't need to be peer-to-peer and all of the crypto. It doesn't even need to go that level yet. That's just level one. Then they will sign up for a service, which is because we're really focused on artificial intelligence as a service. And that, to me, is the next iteration for AI. I've been talking about this for about three or four years now, literally, in different conferences and so forth for people who haven't hit it. But that we will get to that point where AI will become AI as a service, just like SaaS is.
\n\nWe're still at the, you know, most of the world on the legacy systems are still software as a service. We're about to hit AI as a service because the world is evolving. And this is true; they did shut it down. But you did have okay, so there are two case points which I can bring up. So JP Morgan did create something called a Coin, and it was using AI. And it was a coin like crypto, coin like a token, but they called it a coin.
\n\nBut it could process, I think, something like...I may be off on this, so to the sticklers that will be listening, please, I'm telling you I may be off on the exact quote, but I think it was about...it was something crazy to me, like 200,000 of legal hours and seconds that it could process because it was basically taking the corporate legal structure of JP Morgan, one of the biggest banks. I think they are the biggest bank in the U.S. JPMorgan Chase.
\n\nAnd they were explaining in 2017 how we created this, and it's going to alleviate this many hours of legal work for the bank. And I think politically; something happened because they just pulled away. I still have the original press release when they put it out, and it was in the media. And then it went away. I mean, no implementation [laughs] because I think there was going to be a big loss of jobs for it. And they basically would have been white-collar legal jobs, most specifically lawyers literally that were working for the bank.
\n\nAnd when they were talking towards investment, it was a committee. I was at a conference. And I was like, I was fascinated by that. And they were basically using Bitcoin protocol as the tokenization protocol, but they were using AI to process it. And it was basically looking at...because legal contracts are basically...you can teach it with natural language processing and be able to encode and almost output it itself and then be able to speak with each other.
\n\nAnother case point was Facebook. They had...what was it? Two AI systems. They began to create their own language. I don't know if you remember that story or heard about it, and Facebook shut it down. And this was more like two years ago, I think, when they were saying Facebook was talking, you know, when they were Facebook, not Meta, so maybe it was three years ago. And they were talking, and they were like, "Oh, Facebook has a language. It's talking to each other." And it created its own little site language because it was two AI bots going back and forth. And then the engineers at Facebook said, "We got to shut this down because this is kind of getting out of the box."
\n\nSo when you talk about AI as a service, yes, the good and the bad, and what you take away is AWS, Oracle, Google Cloud they do have services where it doesn't need to cost you as much anymore as it used to in the beginning if you know what you're doing ahead of time. And you're not just running iterations or data processing because you're doing guesswork versus, in my opinion, versus actually knowing exactly specifically what you're looking for and the data set you're looking to get out of it.
\n\nAnd then you're talking about just basically putting in containers and clustering it because it gets different operations. And so what you're really looking at is something called an N-scale graph data that can process data in maybe sub seconds at that level, excuse me. And one of my advisors is the head of that anyway at AGI laboratory. So he's got an N graph database that can process...when we implement it, we'll be able to process data at the petabyte level at sub-seconds, and it can run on platforms like Azure or AWS, and so forth.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, that's interesting. So it sounds like cloud providers are making compute services more affordable. You've got data, the N-scale graph data, that can run more transactions more quickly. And I'm curious if you see any future trends since I know you're a futurist around quantum computing and how that could affect capacity for --
\n\nLEONARD: Oh [laughs] We haven't even gotten there yet. Yes. Well, if you look at N-scale, if you know what you're doing and you know what to look for, then the quantum just starts going across different domains as well but at a higher hit rate. So there's been some quantum computers online. There's been several...well, Google has their quantum computer coming online, and they've been working on it, and Google has enough data, of course, to process. So yeah, they've got that data, lots of data. And quantum needs, you know, if it's going to do something, it needs lots of data.
\n\nBut then the inference will still be, I think, quantum is very good at processing large, large, large amounts of data. We can just keep going if you really have a good quantum computer. But it's really narrow. You have to tell it exactly what it wants, and it will do it in what we call...which is great like in P or NP square or P over NP which is you want to do it in polynomial time, not non-polynomial, polynomial time which is...now speaking too fast. Okay, my brain is going faster than my lips. Let me slow it down.
\n\nSo when you start thinking about processing, if we as humans, let's say if I was going to process A to Z, and I'm like, okay, here is this equation, if I tell you it takes 1000 years, it's of no use to us, to me and you Victoria because we're living now. Now, the earth may benefit in 1000 years, but it's still of no use. But if I could take this large amount of data and have it process within minutes, you know, worst case hours...but then I'll even go down to seconds or sub-seconds, then that's really a benefit to humanity now, today in present term.
\n\nAnd so, as a futurist, yes, as the world, we will continue to add data. We're doing it every day, and we already knew this was coming ten years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, even actually in the '50s when we were in the AI winter. We're now in AI summer. In my words, I call it the AI summer. So as you're doing this, that data is going to continue to increase, and quantum will be needed for that. But then the specific need...quantum is very good at looking at a specific issue, specifically for that very narrow.
\n\nLike if you were going to do the trajectory to Jupiter or if we wanted to send a probe to Jupiter or something, I think we're sending something out there now from NASA, and so forth, then you need to process all the variables, but it's got one trajectory. It's going one place only.
\n\nVICTORIA: Gotcha. Well, that's so interesting. I'm glad I asked you that question. And speaking of rockets going off to space, have you ever seen a SpaceX launch from LA?
\n\nLEONARD: Actually, I saw one land but not a launch. I need to go over there. It's not too far from me. But you got to give credit where credit's due and Elon has a reusable rocket. See, that's where technology is solving real-world problems. Because NASA and I have, you know, my chairman, his name is Alexander Nawrocki, you know, he's Ph.D., but I call him Rocki. He goes by Rocki like I go by LS.
\n\nBut it's just we talk about this like NASA's budget. [laughs] How can you reduce this? And Elon says they will come up with a reusable rocket that won't cost this much and be able to...and that's the key. That was the kind of Holy Grail where you can reuse the same rocket itself and then add some little variables on top of it. But the core, you wouldn't constantly be paying for it.
\n\nAnd so I think where the world is going...and let me be clear, Elon pushes a lot out there. He's just very good at it. But I'm also that kind of guy that I know that Tesla itself was started by two Stanford engineers. Elon came on later, like six months, and then he invested, and he became CEO, which was a great investment for Elon Musk.
\n\nAnd then CEO I just think it just fit his personality because it was something he loved. But I also have studied for years Nikola Tesla, and I understand what his contributions created where we are today with all the patents that he had. And so he's basically the father of WiFi and why we're able to communicate in a lot of this. We've perfected it or improved it, but it was created by him in the 1800s.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And I don't think he came from as fortunate a background as Elon Musk, either. Sometimes I wonder what I could have done born in similar circumstances. [laughter] And you certainly have made quite a name for yourself.
\n\nLEONARD: Well, I'm just saying, yeah, he came from very...he did come from a poor area of Russia which is called the Russian territory, to be very honest, Eastern Europe, definitely Eastern Europe. But yeah, I don't know once you start thinking about that [laughs]. You're making me laugh, Victoria. You're making me laugh.
\n\nVICTORIA: No, I actually went camping, a backpacking trip to the Catalina Island, and there happened to be a SpaceX launch that night, and we thought it was aliens because it looked wild. I didn't realize what it was. But then we figured it was a launch, so it was really great. I love being here and being close to some of this technology and the advancements that are going on.
\n\nI'm curious if you have some thoughts about...I hear a lot about or you used to hear about Silicon Valley Tech like very Northern California, San Francisco focus. But what is the difference in SoCal? What do you find in those two communities that makes SoCal special? [laughs]
\n\nLEONARD: Well, I think it's actually...so democratizing AI. I've been in a moment like that because, in 2015, I was in Dubai, and they were talking about creating silicon oasis. And so there's always been this model of, you know, because they were always, you know, the whole Palo Alto thing is people would say it and it is true. I mean, I experienced it. Because I was in a two-year program, post-graduate program executive, but we would go up there...I wasn't living up there. I had to go there maybe once every month for like three weeks, every other month or something.
\n\nBut when you're up there, it is the air in the water. It's just like, people just breathe certain things. Because around the world, and I would travel to Japan, and China, and other different parts of Asia, Vietnam, et cetera and in Africa of course, and let's say you see this and people are like, so what is it about Silicon Valley? And of course, the show, there is the Hollywood show about it, which is pretty a lot accurate, which is interesting, the HBO show.
\n\nBut you would see that, and you would think, how are they able to just replicate this? And a lot of it is a convergence. By default, they hear about these companies' access because the key is access, and that's what we're...like this podcast. I love the concept around it because giving awareness, knowledge, and access allows other people to spread it and democratize it. So it's just not one physical location, or you have to be in that particular area only to benefit. I mean, you could benefit in that area, or you could benefit from any part of the world.
\n\nBut since they started, people would go there; engineers would go there. They built company PCs, et cetera. Now that's starting to spread in other areas like Southern Cal are creating their own innovation hubs to be able to bring all three together. And those three are the engineers and founders, and idea makers and startups. And you then need the expertise. I'm older than 42; I'm not 22. [laughs] So I'm just keeping it 100, keeping it real. So I'm not coming out at 19. I mean, my son's 18. And I'm not coming out, okay, this my new startup, bam, give me a billion dollars, I'm good. And let me just write off the next half.
\n\nBut when you look at that, there's that experience because even if you look at Mark Zuckerberg, I always tell people that give credit where credit is due. He brought a senior team with him when he was younger, and he didn't have the experience. And his only job has been Facebook out of college. He's had no other job. And now he's been CEO of a multi-billion dollar corporation; that's a fact. Sometimes it hurts people's feelings. Like, you know what? He's had no other job. Now that can be good and bad, [laughs] but he's had no other jobs.
\n\nAnd so that's just a credit, like, if you can surround yourself with the right people and be focused on something, it can work to the good or the bad for your own personal success but then having that open architecture. And I think he's been trying to learn and others versus like an Elon Musk, who embraces everything. He's just very open in that sense. But then you have to come from these different backgrounds.
\n\nBut let's say Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, let's take a guy like myself or whatever who didn't grow up with all of that who had to make these two ends meet, figure out how to do the next day, not just get to the next year, but get to the next day, get to the next week, get to the next month, then get to the next year. It just gives a different perspective as well. Humanity's always dealing with that.
\n\nBecause we had a lot of great engineers back in the early 1900s. They're good or bad, you know, you did have Nikola Tesla. You had Edison. I'm talking about circa around 1907 or 1909, prior to World War I. America had a lot of industries. They were the innovators then, even though there were innovations happening in Europe, and Africa, and China, as well and Asia. But the innovation hub kind of created as the America, quote, unquote, "industrial revolution." And I think we're about to begin a new revolution sort of tech and an industrial revolution that's going to take us to maybe from 20...we're 2022 now, but I'll say it takes us from 2020 to 2040 in my head.
\n\nVICTORIA: So now that communities can really communicate across time zones and locations, maybe the hubs are more about solving specific problems. There are regional issues. That makes a lot more sense.
\n\nLEONARD: Yes. And collaborating together, working together, because scientists, you know, COVID taught us that. People thought you had to be in a certain place, but then a lot of collaboration came out of COVID; even though it was bad globally, even though we're still bad, if people were at home, they start collaborating, and scientists will talk to scientists, you know, businesses, entrepreneurs, and so forth.
\n\nBut if Orange County is bringing together the mentors, the venture capital, or at least Southern California innovation and any other place, I want to say that's not just Silicon Valley because Silicon Valley already has it; we know that. And that's that region. It's San Jose all the way up to...I forgot how far north it's past San Francisco, actually. But it's that region of area where they encompass the real valley of Silicon Valley if you're really there. And you talk about these regions.
\n\nYes, I think we're going to get to a more regional growth area, and then it'll go more micro to actually cities later in the future. But regional growth, I think it's going to be extremely important globally in the very near term. I'm literally saying from tomorrow to the next, maybe ten years, regional will really matter. And then whatever you have can scale globally anyway, like this podcast we're doing. This can be distributed to anyone in the world, and they can listen at ease when they have time.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I love it. It's both exciting and also intimidating. [laughs] And you mentioned your son a little bit earlier. And I'm curious, as a founder and someone who spent a good amount of time in graduate and Ph.D. programs, if you feel like it's easy to connect with your son and maintain that balance and focusing on your family while you're building a company and investing in yourself very heavily.
\n\nLEONARD: Well, I'm older, [laughs] so it's okay. I mean, I've mentored him, you know. And me and his mom have a relationship that works. I would say we have a better relationship now than when we were together. It is what it is. But we have a communication level. And I think she was just a great person because I never knew my real father, ever. I supposedly met him when I was two or one; I don't know. But I have no memories, no photos, nothing. And that was just the environment I grew up in.
\n\nBut with my son, he knows the truth of everything about that. He's actually in college. I don't like to name the school because it's on the East Coast, and it's some Ivy League school; that's what I will say. And he didn't want to stay on the West Coast because I'm in Orange County and his mom's in Orange County. He's like, "I want to get away from both of you people." [laughter] And that's a joke, but he's very independent. He's doing well. When he graduated high school, he graduated with 4.8 honors. He made the valedictorian. He was at a STEM school.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow.
\n\nLEONARD: And he has a high GPA. He's studying computer science and economics as well at an Ivy League, and he's already made two or three apps at college. And I said, "You're not Mark, so calm down." [laughter] But anyway, that was a recent conversation. I won't go there. But then some people say, "LS, you should be so happy." What is it? The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
\n\nBut this was something he chose around 10 or 11. I'm like, whatever you want to do, you do; I'll support you no matter what. And his mom says, "Oh no, I think you programmed him to be like you." [laughs] I'm like, no, I can't do that. I just told him the truth about life. And he's pretty tall.
\n\nVICTORIA: You must have --
\n\nLEONARD: He played basketball in high school a lot. I'm sorry?
\n\nVICTORIA: I was going to say you must have inspired him.
\n\nLEONARD: Yeah. Well, he's tall. He did emulate me in a lot of ways. I don't know why. I told him just be yourself. But yes, he does tell me I'm an inspiration to that; I think because of all the struggles I've gone through when I was younger. And you're always going through struggles. I mean, it's just who you are. I tell people, you know, you're building a company. You have success. You can see the future, but sometimes people can't see it, [laughs] which I shouldn't really say, but I'm saying anyway because I do that.
\n\nI said this the other night to some friends. I said, "Oh, Jeff Bezo's rocket blew up," going, you know, Blue Origin rocket or something. And then I said Elon will tell Jeff, "Well, you only have one rocket blow up. I had three, [laughter] SpaceX had three." So these are billionaires talking to billionaires about, you know, most people don't even care. You're worth X hundred billion dollars. I mean, they're worth 100 billion-plus, right?
\n\nVICTORIA: Right.
\n\nLEONARD: I think Elon is around 260 billion, and Jeff is 160 or something. Who cares about your rocket blowing up? But it's funny because the issues are still always going to be there. I've learned that. I'm still learning. It doesn't matter how much wealth you have. You just want to create wealth for other people and better their lives. The more you search on bettering lives, you're just going to have to wake up every day, be humble with it, and treat it as a new day and go forward and solve the next crisis or problem because there will be one.
\n\nThere is not where there are no problems, is what I'm trying to say, this panacea or a utopia where you personally, like, oh yeah, I have all this wealth and health, and I'm just great. Because Elon has had divorce issues, so did Jeff Bezos. So I told my son a lot about this, like, you never get to this world where it's perfect in your head. You're always going to be doing things.
\n\nVICTORIA: That sounds like an accurate future prediction if I ever heard one. [laughs] Like, there will be problems. No matter where you end up or what you choose to do, you'll still have problems. They'll just be different. [laughs]
\n\nLEONARD: Yeah, and then this is for women and men. It means you don't give up. You just keep hope alive, and you keep going. And I believe personally in God, and I'm a scientist who actually does. But I look at it more in a Godly aspect. But yeah, I just think you just keep going, and you keep building because that's what we do as humanity. It's what we've done. It's why we're here. And we're standing on the shoulders of giants, and I just always considered that from physicists and everyone.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. And if people are interested in building something with you, you have that opportunity right now to invest via the crowdfunding app, correct?
\n\nLEONARD: Yes, yes, yes. They can do that because the company is still the same company because eventually, we're going to branch out. My complete vision for AIEDC is using artificial intelligence for economic development, and that will spread horizontally, not just vertically. Vertically right now, just focus on just a mobile app maker digitization and get...because there are so many businesses even globally, and I'm not talking only e-commerce.
\n\nSo when I say small to midsize business, it can be a service business, car insurance, health insurance, anything. It doesn't have to be selling a particular widget or project, you know, product. And I'm not saying there's nothing wrong with that, you know, interest rates and consumerism. But I'm not thinking about Shopify, and that's fine, but I'm talking about small businesses. And there's the back office which is there are a lot of tools for back offices for small businesses.
\n\nBut I'm talking about they create their own mobile app more as a way to communicate with their customers, update them with their customers, and that's key, especially if there are disruptions. So let's say that there have been fires in California. In Mississippi or something, they're out of water. In Texas, last year, they had a winter storm, electricity went out. So all of these things are disruptions. This is just in the U.S.,
\n\nAnd of course, I won't even talk about Pakistan, what's going on there and the flooding and just all these devastating things, or even in China where there's drought where there are these disruptions, and that's not counting COVID disrupts, the cycle of business. It literally does. And it doesn't bubble up until later when maybe the central banks and governments pay attention to it, just like in Japan when that nuclear, unfortunately, that nuclear meltdown happened because of the earthquake; I think it was 2011.
\n\nAnd that affected that economy for five years, which is why the government has lower interest rates, negative interest rates, because they have to try to get it back up. But if there are tools and everyone's using more mobile apps and wearables...and we're going to go to the metaverse and all of that. So the internet of things can help communicate that. So when these types of disruptions happen, the flow of business can continue, at least at a smaller level, for an affordable cost for the business. I'm not talking about absorbing costs because that's meaningless to me.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, well, that sounds like a really exciting project. And I'm so grateful to have this time to chat with you today. Is there anything else you want to leave for our listeners?
\n\nLEONARD: If they want to get involved, maybe they can go to our crowdfunding page, or if they've got questions, ask about it and spread the word. Because I think sometimes, you know, they talk about the success of all these companies, but a lot of it starts with the founder...but not a founder. If you're talking about a startup, it starts with the founder.
\n\nBut it also stops with the innovators that are around that founder, male or female, whoever they are. And it also starts with their community, building a collective community together. And that's why Silicon Valley is always looked at around the world as this sort of test case of this is how you create something from nothing and make it worth great value in the future. And I think that's starting to really spread around the world, and more people are opening up to this. It's like the crowdfunding concept.
\n\nI think it's a great idea, like more podcasts. I think this is a wonderful idea, podcasts in and of themselves, so people can learn from people versus where in the past you would only see an interview on the business news network, or NBC, or Fortune, or something like that, and that's all you would understand. But this is a way where organically things can grow. I think the growth will continue, and I think the future's bright. We just have to know that it takes work to get there.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. Thank you so much for saying that and for sharing your time with us today. I learned a lot myself, and I think our listeners will enjoy it as well.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobot.fm. You can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Leonard S. Johnson.
Sponsored By:
Neil Macqueen is a leading industrial designer with 78 patents to his name, having previously spent ten years at Dyson and is now the Head of Design at Gembah, the world's first global marketplace for product development.
\n\nChad talks to Neil about being focused on industrial design or actual physical products as opposed to interfaces and digital products, working designers and developers, and design to manufacture as a process.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Neil Macqueen, a leading industrial designer with 78 patents to his name, having previously spent ten years at Dyson and who is now the Head of Design at Gembah, the world's first global marketplace for product development. Neil, thank you so much for joining me.
\n\nNEIL: Oh, it's great to be here with you today, Chad. Thank you for having me.
\n\nCHAD: One distinction I feel like we always need to make, and this is one of the things we struggle with at thoughtbot; people want to put themselves out in the community and say, "Here's what I do," and people use the word product design. And there's actually a pretty big, you know, some designers are, or product developers are industrial design physical products and others are digital. What do you do at Gembah?
\n\nNEIL: For me, myself, what I do at Gembah explicitly is far more focused around industrial design or actual physical products as opposed to interfaces and digital products.
\n\nCHAD: And as the world's, you know, the self-described first global marketplace for product development, what does that actually mean?
\n\nNEIL: What it means is that Gembah provides a platform in which anybody with an idea or an aspiration to even have an idea has a single source by which you can tap into all the resources you need to get your product to market. So I think a good metaphor for it would be that it's very easy for myself, yourself, any of the listeners today to become a seller. Like, I can set myself up with an eBay or an Amazon account this afternoon and start selling a product. There are very low barriers to doing that.
\n\nWhereas if you want to become a product creator, that is a very disjointed process. And what you'll see from large companies like my experience at Dyson and other companies is that they have a vertically integrated business. They own each part of that product creation, development, engineering, production, logistics. It is all very integrated. And what we try and do and provide to creators is that single integrated structure by which you can have an idea, work with a designer, develop that in conjunction with a manufacturer, and then very seamlessly move over into your production and logistics.
\n\nCHAD: You mentioned Dyson, and you spent ten years there and moved through various design roles. I definitely want to touch on that in a little bit. But what attracted you to Gembah?
\n\nNEIL: I think, as with all people who are interested in ideas, whether digital or physical, it's the process of creating something that really attracted me, has attracted me to all my roles in the past, and certainly to Gembah. In as much as what I just described previously, it is a world first, like, it is a category-defining company.
\n\nSo I think what really attracted me to Gembah was the fact that what we're doing here is not only building lots of very interesting products and helping entrepreneurs, and product creators, and businesses, but what we're doing is developing a platform which is entirely unique and one of its kind.
\n\nCHAD: I have to admit, I did a little bit of research on you, as I always do. And I looked at your Twitter, and I saw that a lot of your tweets were, I think, back from 2016, where you yourself designed...how would you describe it? A coffee press stand?
\n\nNEIL: Exactly. And AeroPress stand.
\n\nCHAD: Having been through that process and launching it on Kickstarter, is that part of what...you said I want to help other people do this.
\n\nNEIL: Absolutely. And it is probably a very congregating experience in terms of people who go through crowdfunding campaigns and then try and do it yourself. And certainly, my experience, you know, Kickstarter is a wonderful platform. But everything thereafter for me as a creator doing something in my spare time and my evenings outside of my normal nine to five was incredibly challenging, you know, dealing with factories who had very broken English or really struggled to communicate both my idea and their complications accurately. And just how that unfolded into trying to get a product to market without somebody to help and guide me through that process, doing it entirely by yourself.
\n\nSo I think that was certainly a very challenging experience in terms of getting that coffee stand to market. And I think the same is true for lots of first-time creators and even businesses in trying to reduce costs, up efficiency of getting to market quickly. Like, who are the partners and people that you can work with and businesses you can partner with to help provide you with those benefits? And that's really what we try and provide at Gembah. And I think, as you mentioned at the start, certainly my past experiences make me think that what we're building here today certainly does bring a lot of benefit.
\n\nCHAD: I've had quite a few people on the show who launched physical products themselves on Kickstarter or other crowdfunding platforms. And often, the conversation turns to how difficult it actually was from a supply chain perspective from a manufacturing perspective.
\n\nOne of the things that struck me about Gembah is that it is not a small operation. It has headquarters in the U.S, but team members live and work all over the world. Their website says there are 150-plus team members globally, so given that reach, it seems like it probably can be really helpful to people solving those challenges. I'm curious who the ideal customers of Gembah are. What is the profile of someone who works with Gembah?
\n\nNEIL: For our ideal client at the moment, I think that's one topic, and we can go into that. But what we're really trying to do in terms of the company vision is to democratize the design process and creating a product that gets to market. So as much as for us as a company, you know, having gone through a series A funding round and heading towards a series B, yes, we have got a fairly focused view of who is our ideal client profile and persona.
\n\nHowever, what we're really aiming towards is providing this vertically integrated system of design and marketplace resources to absolutely everybody. That is the vision, the vision that anybody can become a product creator for the first time. In as much as, like my metaphor said earlier, you can become a seller on eBay, you should be able to have as easy access to the resources that enable that product creation.
\n\nCHAD: So there's an example I always like to use; it has legs a little bit, which is thoughtbot is a well-respected design and development company. And there's an opportunity, you know, we're working designers and developers. And as people who do this work, we often either buy products and see how they could be improved or have ideas for our own, whether it be notepads, or pens, or even mechanical keyboards are a really interesting thing. If we wanted to pursue something like that, how might we do that?
\n\nNEIL: In the context of Gembah?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, or beyond. But yes.
\n\nNEIL: So I think the first thing for anybody with an idea is to really have some very clear goals at the outset in terms of...and for anybody who is interested in user-centered design, three of the guiding principles for that are three things I always really lean on which is feasibility, viability, and desirability. So within all of those things, what are your ambitions for your product? In terms of ideally, every product should be desirable; people should want to buy it.
\n\nHave you got the means by which to get it to market? And once you've got it there, will it provide you enough of a margin to have a sustainable business? So the viability of the product. And can you actually make it? You know, it's not made out of unobtainium, or it [laughter] might be.
\n\nSo I think a very easy starting point for absolutely everybody is to really go via those three guiding principles in terms of the desirability, viability, and feasibility of your idea. Where do you think you score on that matrix? And then if you think you really have got something in terms of an idea that really has merit and that you have the wherewithal that you want to see it through to fruition, certainly just picking up the phone and calling Gembah, that's a great second step.
\n\nCHAD: Okay. So at Gembah, if someone picks up the phone before going through those three steps and is talking to you, do you help them take a step back and answer those three questions?
\n\nNEIL: Absolutely. So I think what we really try and do is not only facilitate your product development journey. We're not a service provider; we're a service facilitator. We want to connect you with all of the resources within our platform and marketplace. And what we really try and steer towards is what is the product development journey that best suits your needs. And I think, typically speaking, if we were to use a broad brush, it falls into three camps which is, do you want to speed to market? And the fact you want to sell an idea very quickly.
\n\nSo, could you potentially white-label your product? So we provide these options to people. So there's a white labeling route. There's then a customized route which is to say, is there something fairly similar already commercially available in the market and that factories provide, and that you could adjust the feature set for your idea by perhaps 10%? That would actually then mean that you could get your idea customized in the factory and into market. So that's the customized route.
\n\nVersus then an entirely unique product which is to say that you need to both develop the design and tooling for the product from the ground up. Intuitively, I would hope from white labeling all the way through to unique product development; you have a fairly matched scale of time and cost. The more involved, the more detail, the more unique, the more time, and the more cost proportionally increases.
\n\nCHAD: How would you say that designing within a company like Dyson is different than being outside?
\n\nNEIL: The thing that working for a company like Dyson and others like it really affords you is the freedom to research without the means of having to really focus on what is my next launch in a year's time. And what I mean by that is Dyson and other large, successful companies have exclusive product development innovation hubs and idea teams who, for every 100 products they develop, potentially only get one through to market and into the global markets.
\n\nSo I think as a designer, what you're really afforded there is the space and creativity to explore lots of ideas without the pressure of I have to have something out in this next six-month period into the market. I think that's very different to a small to medium-sized enterprise who have a set product line, and this may be your only product line.
\n\nLike, you really need to be laser-focused in what is my incremental product development here so that I can maintain the attention of the public? As well as then trying to work concurrently on how do I evolve my product line to then broaden out my audience? So I think that's quite different in terms you have to be very focused.
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\n\nCHAD: You started at Dyson as a design engineer, and you moved through up into a senior design engineer, then concept lead, to design manager of new product innovation. What was the journey from design engineer to eventually design manager? And what are the differences between those roles?
\n\nNEIL: I think the key thing that changes within those roles is the level of autonomy and responsibility. And I think what scales up through each of those rungs is essentially how you can demonstrate competency for your core responsibility set. So as a design engineer, you're responsible for part-level designs like, here is, you know, you mentioned the mechanical keyboard earlier in the conversation. In that scenario, you would have a team of potentially four design engineers seeing that through to fruition. You would have a subset of those parts which you're exclusively responsible for.
\n\nCHAD: So you might just be responsible for designing the best keycaps.
\n\nNEIL: Exactly, exactly. So one chap will be just looking at the springs, and the tension, and how do they feel. Another one will be looking at the structural integrity; another one will be looking at the ergonomics. So I think you have the individual part and function. And what then levels up from that is as you go then into an advanced design engineer or a senior engineer is that you begin being responsible for the full assembly. So instead of having your keycap, you're now responsible for leading the whole team doing the whole keyboard.
\n\nAnd then as you then progress through that, having demonstrated competency and reliability of delivering things, you then become a concept lead, which is to say that you have multiple projects on at the same time. You're leading the teams to do that. And then as you progress through that into design and management role, you then level that up again in terms of you're typically managing portfolios of projects within different market sectors.
\n\nSo I think if that answers your question directly enough, what it really builds on is for anyone aspiring, is you really need to focus on the basics first, like making sure that you are fundamentally a good designer and a good engineer who can demonstrate and communicate your logic and your thought process. And I think if you already underpin yourself with those sorts of fundamental competencies, that serves you really well as you move up through the ranks.
\n\nCHAD: Some people I talk with, as they move up through those ranks, they feel like they are getting further and further away from what they actually love to do, which was design products. Is that something that you felt, or how did you not feel that?
\n\nNEIL: I think as you move up through the management hierarchy, at the same time, typically the people that do that, I find and who are successful at it have a fairly focused view of what are their goals, what are they trying to achieve, and what is almost their trademark that they're known for. So for myself, how I've avoided that is...you asked me why I'm interested in Gembah, and that's because what I have very instinctively done both at Dyson and here is make sure that I've positioned myself to solve real problems. Probably everybody in a senior management position sometimes still misses getting on CAD or coding and just having the afternoon with no meetings. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Yeah.
\n\nNEIL: I think there's an element of that that you can't get away from. However, what really enthuses and keeps me really engaged and motivated in what I am doing now is to say I'm still solving problems, which is the fundamental heart of everything. So instead of designing the best keyboard for somebody who has carpal syndrome or hand problems, what we're now designing and developing is a platform that solves problems for a whole very broad user base.
\n\nAs long as you are always focused in your role in terms of how can I best serve and provide solutions to problems, I think what people will find is that you're actually always very fulfilled as a creator, maybe not as a mechanical engineer or electrical engineer, depending on your background, or a coder. But if you're fundamentally interested in solving problems and bringing solutions, you can still hold on to that very tightly.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. As head of design now, what does your day-to-day look like?
\n\nNEIL: The majority of what it looks like is what I almost just mentioned with regards to how are we both developing and sustaining a business that provides and develops better solutions for our clientele as well as then dipping in and out of projects which require support and a little bit of extra attention? As I mentioned, as a design manager at Dyson, looking across portfolios of projects.
\n\nMy role now is really around making sure that all of our category leads, who are people looking after multiple projects that they, all have the support and tools that they need and require, as well as, as I mentioned, in particular cases, giving attention to some design projects that need help. And then roadmapping out, like, what is the future? What are the next incremental steps of functionality and platform features that we want to develop as a company and facilitate and bring to market for our customers?
\n\nCHAD: What are some of those things that you're seeing across the portfolio that are needs that you're hoping to meet?
\n\nNEIL: I think a very interesting new thing that we're bringing to market at the moment is what we call design to manufacture as a process. And what we really try and do there is we see in the market at the moment that people have a real sensitivity around cost-effectiveness with the global economies where they're at and supply chain. Like, how do I, number one, potentially diversify my supply chain? Or number two, how do I actually launch a new product with as little cost to myself as a business as possible?
\n\nAnd what we do there is a report, a product opportunity report that profiles you as a business and a brand, and then overlaps that almost in a Venn diagram of where's the sweet spot in terms of available products in the markets that you could customize that would really suit your brand and that we could really effectively customize, and develop with a manufacturer and with a design team and get to market really quick, really cheap, but is still uniquely your own and has your special touch to it?
\n\nCHAD: Obviously, a thing that has happened in this market or this industry over the last decade or so is crowdfunding and Kickstarter specifically. How have you seen that change things for people?
\n\nNEIL: I think what it's meant is people get access to funds in a way that would have taken a very long time previously. And I think the other thing is people get feedback on ideas quite quickly as well, which maybe isn't the case across the broad spectrum. But for people who have an idea and want to very quickly test it with the markets in terms of does, this resonate with my user groups that I'm interested in? Like, is this a real set of user problems which I believe I've solved? Is that actually true?
\n\nI think what it's provided product, you know, industrial design is typically, or any other type of product creator is this very quick access to people with capital who can invest and seeing their products through to fruition, which otherwise was actually a really hard and arduous task, not only getting feedback but then trying to raise capital separately.
\n\nCHAD: In your opinion, what's the ideal point that something actually goes to crowdfunding?
\n\nNEIL: The ideal timing for your crowdfunding campaign is where you have the first iterations of a working and demonstrated functional prototype where it's not just all idea but that you can demonstrate the fact that you're committed to this, that you can demonstrate the functionality of it, and show that you've considered how it's going to be made and that it's not actually going to change massively. Because I think what you can sometimes see is people can go to Kickstarter prematurely. And then when they're actually getting into the manufacturer of the product, there are some fairly large compromises that need to be made or the fact that the idea isn't feasible and they can't make it.
\n\nThe ideal time to go to a Kickstarter is where you've already thought through all your user scenarios. You've got a very clear perspective on what the problem set is that you're solving and that you can then demonstrate that with a working prototype. And that doesn't need to be pretty or visually pleasing because you can have your beautiful render next to your functional prototype. I think that's a great time.
\n\nCHAD: And concrete information on the feasibility of manufacturing it.
\n\nNEIL: Absolutely. So I think in part of informing your working prototype, I think you need to have early what you'd call DFM, design for manufacture feedback which is where you've spoken to a manufacturer or a tooling engineer and said, "What are the key considerations I should take into building this assembly?" And often is, the case for people who perhaps haven't gone down that road very, very far is that there are some fairly significant adjustments that you need to make to either the visuals or the functionality of your design. At least having a few initial conversations with those factories very clearly integrated into your product considerations is really, really critical.
\n\nCHAD: So I have to ask, is there something that you're personally pursuing now and working on?
\n\nNEIL: At the moment, not via Kickstarter. I think the thing actually I'm doing in my spare time is a bit of a passion project with regards to furniture. I think certainly, from my perspective, every designer can pay homage to architecture as the mother of all design. What more is an in-depth user experience and journey than the spaces we're all sitting in every day? And a big part of that is furniture. So I'm designing an armchair in my spare time. This is a way to, [laughs] as you mentioned earlier, with my current role as how it is just making sure I keep sharp my sketching skills and design skills, even if it's just for myself.
\n\nCHAD: What does that look like for you? Is it sketching on paper now? And how far do you think you'll take it?
\n\nNEIL: At the moment, it's just sketching on paper and asking my kids which ones they like, they dislike. [laughter] And I think, thankfully, with the abilities I've developed and some of the resources I have access to, we'll probably build a functioning prototype just so I can have a nice new armchair in the kitchen.
\n\nCHAD: Does that mean creating it yourself, or what does that look like?
\n\nNEIL: Again, I can only speak for myself. But being a creator and having come from my past, as we mentioned at Dyson, I think my true passion is creation, so keeping my hands very familiar with materials and screwing things together. So I think what that will look like for me is actually just getting all the raw materials myself within the woodwork, the metalwork, and doing all that work myself. I haven't got much of a passion yet for upholstery, so I'll probably outsource that part. There's something really rewarding in physically making something with your hands which I've never let go of, and I think I'll always enjoy.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. I want to come back, as we wrap up, to those three pillars that you outlined, which I thought were really great. What does someone do who's really passionate about the idea that they have, but they hit roadblocks on one or more of those pillars?
\n\nNEIL: Hmm, if somebody wants to start just themselves and you have an idea, and you don't want to necessarily engage with a company or service providers yet, I think what you can really do and start with is engaging with groups and doing research yourself so around desirability and feasibility. There is a world of products and reviews out there. There are a lot of resources there. So what I would encourage if somebody has said...you know, let's use your keyboard example again.
\n\nCHAD: Yep.
\n\nNEIL: What are the best-selling keyboards out there? And is there a silver lining in between all of them in terms of what makes them sell so well? Is it their functionality? Is it their design? Is it the ergonomics? So I think people can really do a lot of research around what develops and constitutes a really desirable product. As well as then in terms of the feasibility, like, are the things you're putting together can you find them freely on, say, a website like Alibaba? Or can you fundamentally make a keyboard out of wood at scale? Again, there are a lot of resources online that you can do for yourself.
\n\nAnd then around viability in terms of, like, what would your margins have to be? Again, I think there's quite a lot you can do there with yourself with regards to what is available on the market today? What are their unique selling points? What are their suggested selling prices? And where do you think you could competitively position yourself?
\n\nTypically, how I find that works out is a matrix of ideas. And I think people really need to not be precious about the one idea they have but really be adventurous around, like, what are all the ways that I could potentially solve for this problem set? And then just market against that matrix of desirability, feasibility, and viability and see which one is enough of all of those that actually gives you your best shot at success?
\n\nI think, typically, you see a lot of creators who are very precious about an idea. And actually, maybe, again, it's entirely machined out of aluminum. Well, you know, you're really going to struggle to make that at a competitive price.
\n\nCHAD: Right. You're not necessarily Apple. [laughs]
\n\nNEIL: Exactly. You haven't got that economy of scale available to you. [laughs] So I think having a very clear goal in terms of, like, where do I think I can position this in the market? Do I think people will like it? And could I make it for that much?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I think that that's true across the entire spectrum of digital and physical product design and development. We work with a lot of founders who have an idea. And compromise problem-solving through the many challenges that you face is critical. And if you're not able to do that, it's very difficult to actually get a product to market in any reasonable time frame or financial sustainability.
\n\nNEIL: I completely agree.
\n\nCHAD: Well, I really appreciate you stopping by the show and sharing with us, Neil.
\n\nNEIL: Thank you so much for having me today. It's been a great conversation, and I've really enjoyed it.
\n\nCHAD: If folks want to get in touch with you, or follow along, or learn more about Gembah or anything else, where are all the different places that they can do that?
\n\nNEIL: So you can certainly find and connect with me on LinkedIn if anyone would like to follow up with me personally. And if you're really serious about getting a product to market and engaging around that process, you can just look us up at gembah.com.
\n\nCHAD: And I can also personally say if you like looking at pretty things for inspiration, Neil's Instagram is also pretty good for that. [laughter]
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes for everything that we just mentioned, along with links and a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm.
\n\nIf you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks so much for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Neil Macqueen.
Sponsored By:
Chloe Sweden is the Founder and CEO of Plants and Perks, a service for rewarding employees with sustainable perks.
\n\nChad talks to Chloe about supporting employees on plant-based sustainability journies by gifting free samples and high-value prizes, choosing a co-founder, and being strategic with the types of businesses they've approached.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Chloe Sweden, the Founder, and CEO of Plants and Perks, a service for rewarding employees with sustainable perks. Chloe, thank you so much for joining me.
\n\nCHLOE: Thank you for having me.
\n\nCHAD: So you officially started Plants and Perks, at least according to your LinkedIn, in July of 2020. But I'm sure, like many entrepreneurs, you incubated the idea. The idea was in your head for longer than that. So, where does the idea from Plants and Perks come from? And when did you start to noodle it?
\n\nCHLOE: It's a really, really good question. I also think that the LinkedIn algorithm isn't 100% correct.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nCHLOE: And it always seems to add time. I always get this sort of like, "Oh my God, you've been doing this for like two years?" I'm like, "No, I'm sure it can't be. It must be shorter than that." So Plants and Perks, Plants and Perks originally started out life as the Green Shoot Institute, which, I think, if you Google us, still there's remnants of the Green Shoot Institute that exists. That is still our company holding name. And that was kind of, I guess, the first thought of the idea.
\n\nI was at the time heading up commercial relationships at a large parenting platform in the UK. And we had started to go on our own plant-based journey, so thinking about cutting back on meat and dairy consumption. I guess that was sort of my own personal journey that started to make me, as a parent, and as a consumer, and as a senior leader within business to, start to think about things outside of myself, and my family, and my business. And really, that was kind of the spark of thinking about how we, as employers, don't really do much to support employees on the plant-based sustainability journey. That was the sort of the embryo of the idea.
\n\nAnd that came from the fact that I had spent 20 years of my life in advertising, marketing, and then ten years within that in talent as a former head of talent and culture really thinking about how we embed talent and how we help employees, and how culture is so important to businesses, and how we get employees really to be the face of our brands. But we don't really do much to invest in people beyond the kind of traditional benefits that exist but also in terms of training and things like that.
\n\nThat was kind of where things were coming together, sort of thinking about the future of work and thinking about how people go through these huge life moments and how the businesses really support them. So that was kind of the start. I won't give the whole game away, but that was, I guess, the beginning of a kind of, hmm, there's something there. And I didn't really know what it was at the time.
\n\nBut yeah, I guess it wasn't so much before I actually incorporated the company. I incorporated in September 2020. That's what it says on my Company's House printout that I have on the wall just to remind me of when that momentous day happened. But pretty quickly, from coming up with an idea, I incorporated the business and just went, this is something I have to do.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, the feeling of this is something I have to do is something that I've felt myself and that I hear from a lot of entrepreneurs and guests of the show. You were working at Mumsnet at the time. How did you start while also having another job?
\n\nCHLOE: Not just having another job, running a large sales team, and homeschooling two children during a pandemic.
\n\nCHAD: Oh, homeschooling. Okay, yeah.
\n\nCHLOE: And my son was definitely diagnosed with having additional needs at the time as well. I guess it was all of those things that kind of came together that made me realize, I mean, I had joined Mumsnet actually to head up Mumsnet's talent function, which was all about creating a flexible working product platform for parents and those looking for flexible jobs to bring them together in a marketplace. But Mumsnet wasn't going to actually continue to invest in that product, and I moved to a more commercial role.
\n\nBut I moved there to build a product. And that's what really triggered it for me. I realized in that moment when I'm homeschooling, and I'm running a large sales team, and I'm doing all of these things, that wasn't why I moved to this role. I actually moved because I'm at the point in my career where I want to build something, that I have it in me to create something, and build, and connect people, and do something bigger than myself and bigger than a day-to-day job. And so that itch was there.
\n\nI was also, as part of that role, going out and speaking to heads of HR in large enterprise organizations and talking to them about what was troubling them. And funny enough, looking after their working parents was not troubling them, but sustainability came up a lot, and general well-being came up a lot. And so that was kind of, I guess, it started the percolation. But really, I guess with most things, the idea came about in its most embryonic stage, and then I took it to market really quickly. I basically gave it a name and then just reached out on LinkedIn to anybody I knew and people I didn't know as well just literally reached out to those people.
\n\nAnd I spoke to one person who I won't name her or the company but probably one of the largest global companies in the world and at a very senior level. And she was actually working out of the States. And she said to me, you know, "This is new. [laughs] You need to do this. Nobody is doing this. We need this in our lives. And I haven't heard of anybody doing this in the States. You need to go and build this." And that was, I guess, the impetus to do it.
\n\nAnd so I worked weekends. I actually was working four days a week at Mumsnet. But my fifth day, I was working full time for Mumsnet but not being paid. And so I clawed back my fifth day where I wasn't being paid, and I worked all weekends, and I worked all evenings. And I just worked and worked, and I haven't stopped until this conversation. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: To actually work on it, did you start to gather a team, a group of people? Who were the first people that you brought on to help you?
\n\nCHLOE: So my co-founder, Ellen, we were on the senior leadership team of a creative agency. I was the head of talent and culture. She was the head of operation. So we had worked side by side in this organization. So we kept in touch. And she had contacted me about some health issues. And we were talking about cutting back on meat and dairy as one of the things that she could look at, given my own experiences with it. And that really bonded us.
\n\nAnd because I am marketing, sales, creative, and she is digital, tech, product, it kind of made sense, in the beginning, to bring her on. And I just said to her like, "I'd really like you on this journey with me." And she resisted it for quite some time. [laughs] We are very different personality-wise, very, very different. I'm yes, she's no, and so in that way, we're very much yin and yang.
\n\nCHAD: Oh, but I think that that can be the perfect combination for a co-founder team. I know that I've needed that in the past for myself. Someone who balances the risk-taking with reality can be very helpful.
\n\nCHLOE: Yeah, absolutely. And I think I'm actually not a risk taker, but I am a natural optimist. And so I'll have a meeting, and I'll be like, "It's amazing. It's solved all of our problems." And she'll be just like, "No, it hasn't. What's changed? Nothing's changed. There's no contract, nothing signed," [laughs] which I think in the moment is really not helpful. [laughs] But it's really helpful as we grow the business. It really is a good balance.
\n\nI bring all of that energy and drive to get us very quickly to the next level. And she brings all of the understanding, all of the pauses, all of the rigor, all of the data, all the things that are just the complete opposite of me. So I brought her on pretty quickly. And then we had a bit of a false start around getting a CTO on board. But we knew we needed to build the product quickly. And in the end, we built the product ourselves on a no-code/low-code platform, just the two of us. And I recommend any entrepreneur to do that because you learn a lot. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Is that the reason...so you learning...because I think that that is super important, whether it be someone like yourself actually building the product or just being very close to it. When I've seen entrepreneurs get too far away from the product too soon, they end up regretting it later on.
\n\nCHLOE: Yeah, I think --
\n\nCHAD: Or building the wrong thing.
\n\nCHLOE: Or building the wrong thing. I do really believe in you've got to do every job in order to then understand who you need to hire and to then have an appreciation of that role. So obviously the product evolved very much and very quickly. We were very lucky that one of our first clients was Lacoste, who we launched to here in the UK with our MVP. But we also did some other paid consultancy work with Uber and with other clients as well. And then PopSockets came on in the States as well. We weren't ready to launch in the States, but they really wanted us to. So we're like, you know, let's do it. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: I noticed those three names on your website. And I do think that social...being able to have those testimonials there with names people recognize lends a lot of credibility to the product.
\n\nCHLOE: And they were my first three clients, [laughs] genuinely my first three clients.
\n\nCHAD: So, did you seek that out, or did it just happen? How did that work out?
\n\nCHLOE: Obviously, my background is commercial sales, so it's not something that I shy away from. It was connections; it was talking to people. And we were recommended to PopSockets, which was amazing. They came on as an early investor as well, which was phenomenal. Again, having clients who love what you do so much they want to invest is brilliant because you get to have some really interesting conversations and backers in your corner.
\n\nBut yeah, of course, we've been quite strategic with the types of businesses that we've approached, but we are very lucky that we are attracting the right type of businesses as well, which is lovely. I mean, talk a little bit more about what Plants and Perks does, but the way in which we have evolved the product and evolved the types of clients that we're talking to is not an accident. And I think it goes back to the conversation we were just having about building the product yourself. Really being in the weeds, I think, is really important.
\n\nNow, it's going to be a challenge to me as a founder moving forward to make sure I'm extricating myself from the weeds as time goes on, although I'm pretty happy to step away when needed. [laughs] But knowing that and being able to talk to your clients and being really clear, well, this is what this client likes; this is what's happening here; this is what's working well here, I think is really important. You've got to know your product. You've got to know your audience.
\n\nWe've got two...actually, we have three clients, technically. We have clients; we have employees; we have client employers; we have employees; and we also have Perks' partners. We have sustainable...we promote sustainable products and services on our platform. So we also have partners as well as our clients. And I think you've got to know them all really well.
\n\nNow, I was a head of talent and culture, so I know the employee piece quite well because I was always advocating for the employee. I spent 20 years downsizing, so I ran client accounts. So I know how to look after clients, I guess, from that perspective and work in large organizations. I also used to literally do the marketing for PepsiCo and Wrigley's and big brands. So I can do the partner piece quite well. And I think it's really important that you've done that and you've lived through it.
\n\nAnd I've never built a tech product, but I did literally roll my sleeves up and get stuck in to build the MVP, which was kind of the bit that I was missing. Now, I haven't built the app; that is beyond me. [laughs] But luckily, we've got a brilliant team around us now, which we've built up since our last raise that's enabled us to get that talent in. And yeah, and it's just been an amazing team effort to get us to where we are now.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. I want to dig into more about what the product actually is. But you've already alluded a couple of times --
\n\nCHLOE: No, let's keep it mysterious.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nCHAD: You've alluded a few times to the evolution. And one thing that's stuck out to me as you were talking about that is that going to the website now; it's not specifically about eating less meat and dairy. You're talking more about sustainability.
\n\nCHLOE: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: I'm sure that's still a component of it.
\n\nCHLOE: 100%.
\n\nCHAD: But what drove that change?
\n\nCHLOE: Oh my God, [laughs] about a two-week period where we had an existential crisis. I think this is really interesting, I think, for our journey, and I think us as founders as well. So we ideologically always believed in the reduction of meat and dairy as the number one thing you can do for personal and planetary health. That's it. Like, that was it.
\n\nWe were all about eat plants, get perks. We encourage employees to cut back on their meat and dairy consumption, and we reward them with plant-based perks. That was the product. That was the concept. Tested really well. People really bought into it. People liked that they were being rewarded with perks. They absolutely understood that it is unsustainable to consume meat and dairy in the way that we are moving forward for the planet and also for personal health.
\n\nSo when we're having these conversations, everyone was like, thumbs up, get it, love it, buy into it, it's all great. And then what was happening is that I kind of got to a point where I was like, we've had all these really positive conversations, but no one's biting. Everyone's sort of saying yes to me and then nothing.
\n\nI'm actually really proud of us as a team for very, very quickly going and identifying the problem and fixing it because we could have stuck to our ideological guns and gone, no, no, no, but we are all about the reduction of meat and dairy consumption as the number one thing. But no one was telling us that it was that that was the problem.
\n\nWhat we had to do was read between the lines because nobody would ever tell us that. But what they would say was, "Well, how would it land with a 58-year-old man working in our distribution center?" And we're like, "Really well, why?" [laughter] But I had to understand what was coming behind that question. And what was coming behind the question was I don't want to launch a benefit where I feel like we're judging somebody's life choices. Like, that's not going to wash.
\n\nSo the people we were talking to were super keen on it, then when they took it up the line, they were essentially saying, "Well, this is a plant-based benefit, Plants and Perks." And I think that's where the sort of record scratched, and it didn't go any further. But no one was feeding this back to us. This we had to discover ourselves.
\n\nAnd so we had this kind of existential crisis where we're like, well, we've always been about sustainability, like, absolutely the reduction in meat and dairy is all because it's unsustainable for us to consume meat and dairy and fish in the way that we are. So why don't we broaden ourselves out to more? We already held sustainable products and services on our platform anyway. It was just the language; it really was. It wasn't actually as big a pivot as it sounded. It really was just softening the language.
\n\nSo we don't talk about plant-based; we talk about planet-friendly. And we just kind of expanded out some of the articles and content that we contained anyway. And that unblocked everything, like genuinely overnight unblocked everything. So it became something that what we were hearing was that companies wanted to introduce a new green benefit, and now they felt that they could because there wasn't the kind of...and we always said that this is non-judgmental. This is completely supportive. These are very small changes that you could make. You don't have to sort of introduce me to it.
\n\nBut now it makes sense to everybody. And I think we as a business just needed to go through that moment where we were like, is this the type of business that we want to be running? Is this the business that we want to be owning? And we were like, absolutely, because this is still...our mission actually didn't change at all. Our mission is to help a million employees live healthier, more sustainable lives. That has not changed. And so the fact that our mission hadn't changed, it was just some of the language needed to change to make it more palatable to a wider audience, that's fine. We could live with that.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's great. So now, what does that actually mean in terms of what the product is? Companies sign up.
\n\nCHLOE: Yep.
\n\nCHAD: And what do employees do?
\n\nCHLOE: Yeah, so it's a really good question. So the other sort of big moment, I guess, inflection point that we had is that we introduced a freemium model. And that, from a product perspective, was quite a big thing because I started realizing in conversations as well we were giving too much value away. And actually, some of the value that we were giving away clients didn't necessarily want. Some clients really wanted it, and some clients didn't need it.
\n\nAnd so we introduced three different products. So we introduced free, so we now have a completely free Plants and Perks app that any employer can take on for their employee base. And it will give them discounts of sustainable products and services. It will give them article content on how to live more sustainably, embrace more sustainable living. And it will give them planet-friendly recipes on essentially more sustainable, healthy ways to eat. And that's the core free product that we've created.
\n\nCHAD: And are you still making revenue on that through partner relationship?
\n\nCHLOE: Yeah, absolutely. So, although, you know, we're not about excess consumption. What we are about is...I think what we really realized is with Plants and Perks; we are bang smack in the middle of a cost of living crisis. And actually, what we can do is level the playing field when it comes to green and sustainable products.
\n\nThere's kind of like this green tax that gets applied. And what we're trying to do is very much look at price parity. So what we talk about is it's harder than ever to make the most sensible choices when costs are spiraling all around us. And so what the reductions of planet-friendly products does is enables you to just try things that you might not have tried before because of cost, and it mitigates against that.
\n\nSo we do go into relationship with partners, and they can promote their products through the platform. But there are also chances for employees to put their reviews and tell them what they think. So it isn't just set up for advertisers in that way at all. But what we found is there's an amazing thing which is that brands need to connect with a new, wider audience. They don't just want to talk to early adopters within the sustainability or plant-based space. And we are talking to every man and every woman in large-scale organizations.
\n\nSo it's actually quite difficult to access those people if you're these niche brands who may not even have listings necessarily in large retailers yet. Or if you do have distribution, it's really difficult to get a sell-through. So we enable those partners to offer sampling, to offer freebies, to offer significant discounts, and to offer in-store redemptions as well. So we are offering quite a significant route to market for sustainable and plant-based products and services.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. Okay, and so what is the second tier up?
\n\nCHLOE: The second tier is plus and what that gives you is we start to give employees plant points, and you collect plant points. It's incredibly gamified. You can collect badges. Every action you do basically has a reaction. So when you read an article, you basically can answer some questions on the article, and you'll be rewarded with points. You can rate a recipe; you can like a recipe, try a recipe. You can buy a product or a service. You can also get a free...in the UK, at the moment, you'll be able to get a free meal once a week, like a free lunch through one of our partners, and loads of freebies as well.
\n\nSo the value is much more significant in the plus model. That's kind of our core offering. And we talk about rewarding employees with sustainable perks. And during the time at the moment, employers are really looking for ways in which they can support their employees through the cost of living crisis. How can we give our employees free stuff, interesting stuff, whilst also helping them on the sustainability journey? And so therefore, this is something that genuinely really works for both employers and employees. So that's the plus model.
\n\nCHAD: One thing I noticed as you lay out the benefits that you get under this model, I'm surprised then by the per-employee cost. It seemed very low to me [laughs] when I saw it. Can you talk more about that?
\n\nCHLOE: Yeah, so that is a from price. And I do think I need to make it; I mean, I do say it's from, and I think I do say there's a bit of an asterisk. I do think I need to potentially change it as well. So it's good [laughs] feedback because I think quite a few people say that. So that is for large-scale employers. So we are talking to large retailers with 20,000, 30,000 40,000 employees. So that is the cost that they would pay. It is a sliding scale back from that cost. But, I mean, we've purposely priced ourselves to be reasonable. We are a mission-led company, and for any investors listening, don't worry; we are also revenue-generating.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nCHLOE: But for us, it's really important that we are an affordable benefit. We're very aware of the costs on everyone. So, for sure, that price is pretty low. But we think that it represents quite good value, incredible value for the client. But it's something that makes sense for them to bring on. It should be a no-brainer; that's basically what we say. Like, it's a no-brainer. In terms of the amount of freebies that you're getting for your employee, it's certainly a no-brainer in terms of the return on investment.
\n\nOn the pro version, by the way, the added value on the pro version is that it's fully ring-fenced for that organization. So it's fully branded. They get full account management. It looks like their platform, essentially. And employees can talk and access the information together. So it might be that Bob in IT in Denver has uploaded a photo of himself cycling to work, and somebody else can comment on it. Somebody else has uploaded a curry recipe in Scotland, and someone else has gone, "Well, I tried that recipe." "But, you know, how was it? How much chili did you put in it?"
\n\nSo people are kind of joining together and really creating that space to talk about sustainability in a much more accessible way. So that's the pro version. And also we're then building on sustainability metrics and also sustainability reporting. So we'll be able to talk about employees' own carbon footprint and also how that scales up to the overall company's sustainability goals.
\n\nCHAD: You mentioned that the mission is to help one million employees on their sustainability journey. Can you tell me where you are [laughs] along that metric?
\n\nCHLOE: Yeah. So, look, the app launch is tomorrow, so [laughs] ask me in a couple of months. And we're really...actually; we're genuinely new.
\n\nCHAD: You've been in private beta, I guess, is the way to describe it.
\n\nCHLOE: Yeah. We're basically with the MVP. We've been helping a couple of thousand employees up until this point. We got around 25,000. About 30-plus companies join our waiting list, which was then around 25,000-30,000 employees that represented. We've just confirmed that we're going to be launching with a very large retailer in the UK as well, so that will then --
\n\nCHAD: Congratulations.
\n\nCHLOE: Thank you. That will then double, so it will be about 50,000 employees that we'll be hitting this year. And then we are in quite far down the line talks with quite a few other companies that would take us to potentially just under our target, which, by the way, the million employees is not like it's a target for 2022. It's like a...it's our ongoing mission. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Right, a long-term vision.
\n\nCHLOE: It's a long-term vision. So we're significantly further ahead than I thought we would be on that. I mean, look, what we've said from the start is the million is a sort of fairly arbitrary number but what it is is it's scale. So we're not here just to look after, you know, we're not here just to help very, very small companies; we can now with our free product, which is great, but it gives us that scale.
\n\nAnd it shows that we, as a business, want to be global, want to be talking to enterprise clients and then helping them live healthier, more sustainable lives. For us, it's both of those things. You can't just live a healthy life, and you can't just live a sustainable life. It needs to be a life of purpose. And so the mission really keeps us true to those things.
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\n\nCHAD: You mentioned you have essentially three client bases: you have the employers, the employees, and the partners, which essentially means you have a multi-sided marketplace.
\n\nCHLOE: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: And one of the challenges of building any marketplace, especially the more sides you have, is bootstrapping it, you know, creating a momentum. The partners want to know, hey, how many people are on the platform that we're going to be bringing into? And in the early days, you don't have much to offer there. So how have you made that work?
\n\nCHLOE: Well, so firstly, we don't see ourselves as a marketplace, which we should. [laughter] We should see ourselves as a marketplace. Secondly, I learned all about building a marketplace because, in 2010, I launched a dating app before there were apps. Actually, it was a dating website...and completely on my own. It was complete madness. And I totally did not understand the power of a network.
\n\nI didn't understand the marketplace dynamic. I didn't understand that you needed buyers and you needed sellers. You needed, in this case, men seeking women and women seeking men. [laughs] You needed both sides of the equation. And you needed volume on both sides straight out of the gate. I just didn't get that. I was like, build it, and they will come. [laughs] And so I was fully burnt from that experience. So that was still ringing in my head.
\n\nSo I think what was important was building up, firstly, building up our partners. So it was really, really important to build up the number of partners that we have on the platform. And for them, it's a completely low-risk strategy. It's like, come on the platform and offer discounts and people who are interested in sustainability. Like, that's really easy. We can do that.
\n\nAnd then for the companies, we've got everything...beyond the partners, we still have loads and loads of value. We still have value in the articles. We still have value in the gamification. We have value in the recipe. So there's still value even if there wasn't value in the perks. But what we've done is we've been able to build up both sides.
\n\nSo actually, we've got over 200 brands, which represents about 45,000-plus individual discounts on the platform. And now we're building up the number of employees. Now we're able to revenue generate more off the partners because we've got the volume on the other side.
\n\nCHAD: You mentioned that you are primarily focused on the UK now. But you've had interest from the U.S. and demand that you've not rejected. What does that look like for you now? And how do you balance that going forward?
\n\nCHLOE: Yeah, I have got quite a lot of interest from the States. And it's really hard not to be pulled over there. And we see a lot of interest from there. We have to --
\n\nCHAD: Why are you holding back?
\n\nCHLOE: Because we just don't have the team size at the moment, and we need to get the...there's two things really. Well, there are a number of things. There are about 22 things. [laughter] I know I said there are two things; there are like a million reasons. We need to make sure that we've got the best product possible; that's number one. We need to test in our home market. We need to make sure that we've got the robust mechanic with the Perk's partners and with the employees. We need to get all of that working really well because the States is a completely different market because of the nature of the products and services. We're not on the ground there.
\n\nSo it's easier for us to have really good relationships with partners now. There's going to be a conference on Wednesday in London, so I'm going to be meeting a lot of our partners there; super easy. It's like 20 minutes on the train for me. Harder to go to the States and make sure that we have really robust relationships with partners there; not impossible, just it would be time and effort to be able to build it in the States. I think we'd be able to find the clients actually more easily or, I guess, quicker if that makes sense because I think there's a need in the States.
\n\nAnd then there are just cultural nuances. So we just need to make sure that all of our content is really relevant culturally. So PopSockets, we are with PopSockets in the States, and I think they're quite fairly near you in Boulder. So we are already aware of some of those cultural nuances. And our editorial teams are quite good at making sure that we're representing that.
\n\nSo, yeah, so I think it's just about making sure that we do a good job of it. The hard thing, I think, is actually launching across Europe because of the language barrier and because of the very different cultural nuances when it comes to sustainability, local government policy.
\n\nCHAD: Also, expectations around employee benefits and how they work.
\n\nCHLOE: Exactly. Expectations around employee benefits and also attitudes to food as well because obviously food is still a part of what we do, and so all of those things actually make Europe slightly harder. So I think, for us, it would be a launch to the U.S. before we would go to continental Europe, but, again, not impossible.
\n\nInterestingly, our clients massively want us to be global quickly because they are all looking for global benefits. They want to be able to homogenize their benefits offerings globally. They do not want to have one thing being offered in the UK, something being offered in the States, especially when it comes to benefits. Things like pensions, things like healthcare are so different in those countries, and they won't change. Just in terms of how many holiday days you guys have versus us, they can't make it a level playing field on many things.
\n\nSo if they could have a level playing field when it comes to sustainable benefits, they would love to do that. So there is a real need driving us to go global very quickly. And, look, going right back to the conversation we had at the beginning, I'd do it tomorrow. I'd move my family to the U.S. and just start building it. But my very kind advisors are like, slow down. [laughs] Get it right in the UK.
\n\nCHAD: Well, I think that is a good indicator that you do have a marketplace business because all of the pressures around scaling are the same ones that marketplaces have.
\n\nCHLOE: Yeah. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: And marketplace businesses very often benefit from in the early days focusing on specific markets.
\n\nCHLOE: No, you're 100% right. I think I've had an epiphany on this podcast [laughter] that I'm running a marketplace.
\n\nCHAD: I want to come back to the actual tech of the product as we wrap up here. I'm super impressed that you used a low-code platform to build the MVP yourself, and that has taken you through today. So how did you go about moving beyond that?
\n\nCHLOE: [laughs] So we always knew we'd have to ditch it, so we were very aware. And that's the beauty of doing an MVP which is you don't fall in love with it. So that was great because we knew we were going to ditch it. We didn't fall in love with it. So how did we go about it? So we've got ourselves...we got a CTO on board that Ellen had worked with before. And we've got an amazing UX-UI designer. And we've got some devs.
\n\nAnd we just ran at it. We just said, right, what are we taking from the MVP that we want to put into...and we knew it had to be an app really quickly. We actually weren't going to develop the app this year, but then it was sort of, you know, the demand there was all for the app. So we've gone app first. So we just said, "What's important from the MVP that we want to be taking here?"
\n\nWe knew that perks was going to be the first thing that we wanted to launch with because of the cost of living crisis. And we wanted to make it really about perks, which is why I know it sounds silly when it's obvious to you that we're a marketplace. It actually isn't that obvious to us because before perks, none of those things are marketplace. All of the other products and services that we offer aren't marketplace.
\n\nCHAD: You mean the content and that kind of thing.
\n\nCHLOE: The content, the gamification. We've got a whole thing coming down the line all about how to calculate your carbon footprint. Like, none of that is marketplace. But because we've really leant heavily on the perks because we know that there's a massive need for that, I guess that's why it's a surprise to me [laughs] that we're a marketplace. But yeah, so we knew we wanted to get perks out first.
\n\nSo then we built a product with perks at the heart because that was testing really well. And then yeah, and then we've just kind of literally just gone hell for leather head down. The team has been in build mode. We've been in sell mode and creation mode. And, yeah, we've just gone really, really fast. It's not in our natures to sort of go slow on these things. And we just need to be out there. People love what we're doing. And now it's the real test. Now it's literally employees now getting access to it, and that's the scary time.
\n\nCHAD: Has it been what you expected actually, you know, building custom software in terms of time, and cost, and that kind of thing? Or has it been different than what you expected?
\n\nCHLOE: Yeah, that's a good question. So I guess over the years, I've had the opportunity to build products internally in companies. You're always in a waiting list for other people that need other stuff. So in a way, it's been quicker because it's my team, and they've got nothing else to concentrate on except this.
\n\nI'm really open with what I don't know. So I'm like, okay, could I do, just out of interest, how easy is it for us to switch off that function and launch this? Is it a week? Is it a month? Is it like a year? Like, I just have no idea on timings and scale on that. So I try to work that out quite quickly.
\n\nBut I think it's been quicker than I thought it might be. And if you've got an internal team, then it's cheaper. As soon as we started to look at external teams, it was prohibitively expensive and no control. And I think we knew quite early on that we wanted to build it internally.
\n\nCHAD: How has it compared to the process of using the low-code tool to get started?
\n\nCHLOE: [laughs] In a way, if I had an idea, it was up and live an hour later...[laughs] and, you know, I guess there's much more pushback now. It's like, "Do you really need that feature?" And I'm like, "Yeah, you know, just do it. What's so difficult?" So I guess I've had to put more rigor and thinking behind some of the features and functions that we now have versus just sticking it up there.
\n\nI mean, look, we were really, really frustrated with low-code. We were really frustrated with what it could do. It is so limited really in what we were trying to do, but it got us to a certain point. I'll always be forever grateful to it. [laughs] And my partner and I were able to completely tag team on it. So I would do all of the front end, and she'd do all the back end. It worked really well from that perspective.
\n\nBut we've got a great team now who are really engaged in what we're trying to do and trying to achieve. I guess I want everything yesterday. So as with most things, I'm getting updates going, "This is broken, and I'm having to turn this off for the launch." And I'm like, "No, I want it there. I want it in there."
\n\nCHAD: So, on that note, why do you have a specific launch date?
\n\nCHLOE: We've got a client we're launching to next week. [laughter] So we're launching --
\n\nCHAD: So you've made a commitment to launch for a particular client, and so you need to hit that date.
\n\nCHLOE: Yeah. We are. We're launching it to...yeah, we've got quite a lot of clients, actually. We've got launches almost every day from next week. So this week is friends and family launch. So we need to get it out and get it tested. And then it goes into the hands of real-life users, which is scary and interesting.
\n\nCHAD: I wish you all the best with that. I really appreciate you taking the time.
\n\nCHLOE: Any advice?
\n\nCHAD: Well, what I was going to say is a question I often like to ask. And I'm curious, before launch, is there something that you wish you could have done differently or realized sooner? I'm sure this question might be different post-launch. The answer to this question might be different post-launch. But from where you sit today, is there something that you wish you would have done differently?
\n\nCHLOE: Oh my God. I almost want to say everything and nothing. I don't want to go, no, I don't regret anything; everything's been a learning experience, [laughs] so there's nothing I would have done differently because it's all led me to this point. But then, on the other hand, I think we've made the right decisions with the data that we've had. I think we need to...there's stuff that we need to be doing much more rigorously now moving forwards, which is making sure that we are very, very data-driven with what's coming back.
\n\nNow we're in the hands of real users in a meaningful way with the app. We need to be taking all of that feedback on and not just relying on the gut instinct with a lot of things. It needs to be much more data-driven now that we've got the data coming in. So I don't think that's a regret necessarily because I think you've got to kind of go with your gut to get a product out the door because you could be completely hamstrung by research. And that would have taken us into a whole nother territory. So I think...does that make sense? So whilst I'm not regretting but like --
\n\nCHAD: It does make sense. And you asked me for any advice that I have. And this is a very small piece of advice, but it's one thing that I've made the mistake of myself and seen many other teams do. If you want to seek metrics on something and you don't instrument it, you don't set up those metrics; then you don't have them.
\n\nCHLOE: So true.
\n\nCHAD: And you realize, oh, we should have been tracking this click, or that click, or this flow. And then you put it in place once you realize that it's not there, and you have to wait 30-60 days in order to get the data. And that time feels terrible while you're waiting for that data to accrue.
\n\nAnd so my general advice is to instrument basically everything. Instrument as much as possible, even if you think you're not going to need it. Track as many clicks as possible in the app so that you can really then say, oh, we didn't know we wanted to track this flow. And you already have the data where you can piece it together instead of waiting.
\n\nCHLOE: Yeah, 100%. So we were challenged by...so we're backed by sustainable ventures on the accelerator program. And we were challenged by them to make sure that we've got all of our KPI metrics in place for the product. Of course, we've just been head down building it. And actually, it was a great moment where it's kind of like, but how many points do you want your users to collect in a day? Maybe there's an upper limit that you want, which we hadn't really thought about. Well, I don't know; we just want them to collect points. Like, you know, we want them to live their best life.
\n\nAnd so in setting the KPIs, we've also had to set what we're measuring, but it was like two pages long. [laughs] There are so many things that we're trying to...what our KPIs are. And I think we can also...I think a learning is that maybe we need to be a little bit more focused with also what we're trying to measure and also what we were trying to see because we, again, can't focus on everything. We can't update and upgrade and iterate absolutely everything as a priority.
\n\nWhat's going to shift the dial the most? What's going to have the biggest impact? Yes, we can change the color of that, or we can make that button bigger. But actually, if that's not going to lead to the KPI that we're trying to measure, then actually, there's no point. So yeah, so I think that's been a learning as well. I mean, there are so many thousands, billion learnings on this whole journey. [laughs] I could write a book. I don't think anyone will read it, but I could definitely write a book. [laughter] And I don't have time to write it. If I had time to write it and if anyone wants to read it, I'll do it. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Okay. Well, maybe a few years from now, you can write that book.
\n\nCHLOE: Yeah.
\n\nCHAD: And, Chloe, thank you so much for joining the show and for telling us all about your journey. I really wish you and Plants and Perks the best over these important next couple of months.
\n\nCHLOE: Thank you. We're raising, by the way. We're just about to go into our seed round, so yeah.
\n\nCHAD: Seed round.
\n\nCHLOE: Yeah.
\n\nCHAD: Perfect.
\n\nCHLOE: I know, perfect for Plants and Perks. That's the next inflection point whilst obviously also launching an app. And we don't do things by halves, so that will be the next learning journey.
\n\nCHAD: If folks want to find out more, to follow along with you, to get in touch with the company, where are all the different places that they can do that?
\n\nCHLOE: Don't look at the website because we're in the process of updating that. [laughter] And, frankly, now I'm going to change the pricing after this conversation. [laughs] But yeah, no, don't do that. Just email me; it's the easiest way. Or find me on LinkedIn; LinkedIn is probably the number one way. Or email chloe@plantsandperks.com. I love; literally, I love hearing feedback: negative, positive, anything. I love having conversations. I love doing partnerships. I love helping people on their journeys; just reach out.
\n\nCHAD: Wonderful.
\n\nAnd you can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode along with a complete transcript at giantrobots.fm.
\n\nIf you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks so much for listening, and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Chloe Sweden.
Sponsored By:
Shawn Young is the CEO and Co-Founder of Classcraft, an innovative platform that motivates students using the culture and mechanics of games.
\n\nVictoria talks to Shawn about edtech, behavior intervention, and the challenges he's faced with going from a homegrown tool to something big and out there in the world.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Shawn Young, the CEO, and Co-Founder at Classcraft, an innovative platform that motivates students using the culture and mechanics of games. Shawn, thank you for joining us.
\n\nSHAWN: Thank you. Thanks for having me, Victoria. I'm happy to be here.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful, yes. So just tell me a little bit about yourself and maybe what brought you to start out as a teacher initially.
\n\nSHAWN: [laughs] I have an interesting journey. I was originally a physicist, a physics major. Although I loved physics because it really gives you a deep understanding of the world, I realized that physics research in a basement with machines just on your own [laughs] wasn't for me, so that's when I started substitute teaching. I really wasn't going to go into education at all. It was just there was availability, lack of teachers.
\n\nAnd it's kind of ironic. I really did not enjoy school. High school, in particular, was just a really challenging time for me, mostly because I just didn't see the point of it. I didn't have any problems in school. I had great grades, but I just was bored out of my mind. And so, as a teacher, I became really, really obsessed with making school meaningful for the students that were there, and because so many kids, so many learners just don't see the point.
\n\nAnd so I did a lot of really cool project-based learning type of stuff. So that's where instead of lecturing the kids, you get them doing things and learning by doing. And so I was teaching physics, obviously. And so we were building hot air balloons and cannons and all kinds of stuff to study Newtonian physics. And kids were super happy to come to the class because we were doing some cool stuff.
\n\nBut I realized as that was happening that another part of meaning generation for kids and learners is the community and the social aspects. And so, I started thinking about how I can build community in the classroom, make the social experience of school relevant for them? And that's how Classcraft was born, really. I kind of put together my interest in motivating and building community with kids. I was a developer at the time as well, so I was able to develop a platform. And, of course, I'm a gamer, so I kind of put all those things together and built this platform in my classroom.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. I was going to ask what skills or experiences from your teaching background translated to being a founder.
\n\nSHAWN: That's interesting because clearly in the product...Classcraft was never meant to be a company. I already had a company. [laughs] I was freelancing as a developer for pretty large clients in New York. I was working with my brother, who's a creative director there. And we worked for Chanel for three years building apps and websites, and that was probably our biggest client. I wasn't looking to make a company. I just built it for me. It was my quest to make school meaningful and relevant.
\n\nAnd after three years of just tinkering around with it with my students, I realized it was having a massive impact on their outlook, on the way they collaborated together, on their motivation. And because Classcraft is a platform that basically gamifies education, so kids level up and they earn points. They're on teams. They have a character class. All the things you would see in an RPG are translating to how teachers are running a school.
\n\nAnd so I made a website just to talk about it after three years of this garage project I had going on. And the day that website went online, 130,000 people came to the website. It just started trending on Reddit gaming. And overnight, a lot of people were asking, "How do I download this?" I'm like, "You can't. There's no company." [laughter] So that's how the company started.
\n\nTeaching is an interesting profession. I think that teaching is a job that requires you to, A, motivate and manage a whole bunch of people, so there's a lot similarility there to management. It's a group of humans that you want to work together to get to their full potential, just like your team should be. But then there's also independent planning. As a teacher, you have a set amount of time to get through X amount of curriculum. So you're always, you know, project management basically, 101 is the same thing as running a curriculum through the year.
\n\nSo there are a lot of those types of soft skills that translate really easily to entrepreneurship. And ultimately, as a teacher, you're responsible on your own for your own successes and failures, which is the type of attitude you need to have if you're going to be a successful entrepreneur is to be responsible, you know, [laughs] take control of your destiny a little bit.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. I hadn't thought about it from that angle. It makes a lot of sense. You're really an independent owner of that classroom, right? [laughs]
\n\nSHAWN: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And trying to get humans to collaborate and do stuff sounds a lot like running a company. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. I saw the tagline on Classcraft: relationships are everything. And I was like, that's a perfect DevOps kind of statement. [laughs]
\n\nSHAWN: Yeah, that's funny. [laughs] We're thinking more like human relationships, but that's so funny [laughs] from the DevOps side for sure.
\n\nVICTORIA: In and outside of the classroom, you need...it doesn't matter how great your technology is or your strategy. If the people aren't talking to each other and you don't have the right relationships, you're not going to be successful.
\n\nSHAWN: Correct. And ultimately, that's the value proposition of Classcraft. Schools that don't build good relationships between students that don't do it between teachers and students, that don't do it between teachers and administration are dysfunctional. And what we're seeing in education today is one of the fundamental breakdowns that's happening and, you know, that's proxy for what's happening at large, and society is relationships are quite strange right now in schools, and that's making it really hard for them to be effective.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. It sounds like this app was built out of your direct experience and your direct experience working with these students. What do you find is unique in working with students, and how do you appeal to them as a user base?
\n\nSHAWN: What's really special about edtech is that your buyer or the user that makes the decision to use the product is not the end user, and that's true in all B2B, SaaS. The decision maker who purchases the software isn't necessarily the employee who's going to use it. But in education, there are multiple levels. Like, if we sell to a district, they're the ones buying, but ultimately, they need to get the teachers to use it. And then, at the end of the day, the actual real users are the students.
\n\nAnd so, there are a lot of design considerations when you think of UX. And even when you think of user permissions, there's a lot of complexity there in education because our goal is to build as much motivation and engagement mechanics as we can for kids. And so that means leveling up, and random loot drops, and all these things you see in video games but applying that to school.
\n\nBut then you need to build all this plumbing [laughs] basically to make it usable by a user who's the teacher who doesn't really know much about games, and that's changing as the teacher...average age of teachers is going down, a lot of retirements, et cetera, so that's changing. But at the base of it, the kids are really well versed in games, game mechanics, game culture, but the teacher who's running it is not.
\n\nSo we have to speak two languages, one of pedagogy, and classroom tools, and data, and saving time. These are the things that educators care about. And incidentally, they care about motivation and motivating the kids, and all of those things. But for kids, we're talking about avatars, and pets, and gear, and leveling up, and all this whole other set of language.
\n\nAnd so when you think of design considerations, we always have to be thinking about how do I make this as motivating and engaging as possible for the kids, but how do I make it as easy to use and not complicated for teachers? Because if the teachers don't use it, then these kids aren't going to see the value anyways. So it's pretty complex because we don't have one single end user.
\n\nVICTORIA: And so you have the challenge of making it fun for kids and then also providing useful and understandable data for teachers and probably parents and other people, right?
\n\nSHAWN: Yeah, yeah, exactly. There are lots of stakeholders.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nVICTORIA: So I want to ask more about how you make it fun, and then I also want to know more about the teacher's perspective, so whichever one you want to start with first.
\n\nSHAWN: Perfect. I mean, those two questions are literally the placement of what Classcraft is. Classcraft is the Venn diagram between what in education is behavior intervention, so managing kids' behavior and motivation. And so, from a motivation angle, how do we make it engaging for kids? In essence, kids are earning points in Classcraft for things that they're doing in school that we want them to do. And by we, schools can configure whatever it is, but it'll be things like handing in homework, being respectful, being inclusive, participating, being on time, these behaviors that they want to see in kids to make them better learners.
\n\nWhen those behaviors occur, teachers can give them points. And the points allow them to level up. As they level up, they each have a character. They have an avatar, and they can be warriors, healers, or mages. And based on that character class, they have a different role in the team. So they're playing in teams just like in an MMORPG or on a football team. And everybody has a different role within the team. And you win as a team.
\n\nAnd so school is quite competitive. Kids are always compared to the class average and their grades. And there's a lot of competition happening in schools. What we've built is a way for kids to be motivated by collaboration. And so they're playing on teams. If they do good things, they get these points, and they level up. And there are millions of combinations of gear that they could buy for their avatar, but they're also unlocking real-life powers.
\n\nAnd so these powers are things like, you know, in a video game, power could be like you could shoot a fireball. In Classcraft, shoot a fireball is the equivalent of you can skip a question on an exam, or you can go to the bathroom, or you can hand in homework a day late, or you can listen to music while you're doing your classwork, so giving them real-life privileges as they level up. And these aren't one-offs; they're skills that they have that they can trigger whenever they want, just like in a game.
\n\nAnd some of those skills are things like being able to heal up your teammate because kids can also lose lives if they do negative things. So if you're late or you're rude, or whatever it is, just like in Mario, what's failing in Mario is falling in a hole, and what's failing as a student, it's not doing what you're supposed to do, or being a bully to other kids. And so, as that happens, they can lose lives. But then they can come in to help each other out. There are boss battles where they can fight monsters by answering quiz questions, et cetera.
\n\nSo all these motions that are ultimately the things that are happening anyways in school, what we're saying is instead of punishing kids or forcing them to do this stuff, make it feel like a game. Speak their language, use the same mechanics that we know are super effective at motivating players. Nobody is forcing people to play video games. Everybody's doing that of their own volition. It's the most popular cultural medium that exists today, well surpassing film, movies, music. And so, why are games so good at doing that? It's because they fulfill fundamental needs: being in control, feeling like we're progressing, social relatedness. That's what we're bringing to school. So that's the student side of it.
\n\nThe other side of it, behavior intervention, is...well, one of the biggest challenges for teachers is managing kids. It's not like showing you how to do a math problem; it's getting you to care about it, listen to it, stop disturbing other people. And so, a lot of time and energy is spent on classroom management for teachers. And so what we do is we use best practices there. For example, there's a lot of research out there in education that says that praising kids for good behavior is a lot more effective than punishing them.
\n\nAnd so games are really good at praising you. You level up, and you gain points. It tells you your score. What we're doing here is giving them that framework but applying that to classroom management. And so instead of saying, "Hey, Victoria, stop goofing off," or "You're not dressed well, go to the principal," or whatever it is that's happening in schools, what we're telling teachers to do instead is say, "Hey if Victoria does something good, recognize her. Give her a high five." And in Classcraft, a high five is gaining points.
\n\nAnd so we're shifting and applying this pedagogy, shifting towards a positive reinforcement mindset. And at the same time, because these high fives are digital, then you get all the data so you can know which behaviors did Victoria do at which time with which teacher? Hey, she didn't get a lot of points this week. What's going on with her? Maybe we should talk to her and see what's going on before her behavior escalates. And so there's a lot of value from a behavior intervention standpoint. But ultimately, it's super effective because the kids really care about it in a way that they don't normally care about classroom management.
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, that makes a lot of sense. And I'm hearing something I've studied before when looking at technology organizations which is that growth mindset I think you're describing, the positive reinforcement, praising the effort for something versus their intrinsic skills. And that's something I love about teaching. I think that really, really translates to running a technology organization.
\n\nSHAWN: Yeah, totally. Ultimately, what we're doing is giving schools and teachers a platform for really effective culture building. And what you're talking about is culture within a company, in essence, and it's really the same thing. It goes back to what I was saying earlier about managing a group of kids [laughs], and managing employees is super similar. It's all about what type of positive culture you are building.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think there's something really universal about that. It's actually even true with dog training. I have a dog, and it's the same kind of motivational theory that works for them too. [laughs]
\n\nSHAWN: Yep, yep.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love it. And you mentioned that you built this tool yourself, and then suddenly, it became very popular, and now it's really, I'm sure, scaling. So what challenges have you faced with going from this homegrown tool to something big and out there in the world?
\n\nSHAWN: Lots of challenges. [laughs] I would say working in education itself is a challenge. It's a pretty challenging vertical to work in. It's ripe for disruption at the same time, pretty conservative. There are a lot of forces working in education systemically not have it move forward. Working with schools and districts is challenging. They have a lot of requirements. And, of course, they're custodians of kids, so that's legitimate, but it does make it more challenging.
\n\nOne of the things that we had to evolve was we were very much a teacher-only tool when we started. I had built it as a teacher. Our user in mind was a teacher. Even our business model initially was selling to teachers basically. There was a free version, and they could upgrade to a paid version. And as we got more and more scale, you know, we have ten million-plus kids in the platform now. As we got more and more scale, what ended up happening was we were working more and more with schools and districts.
\nAnd so we went from a B2C go-to-market and product vision to a B2B/enterprise where we have to roster 10,000 or 100,000 kids in one shot, so all the user provisioning, connecting to information systems that these districts have, et cetera, all of this ginormous plumbing that needs to happen in order for it to continue to be easy to use for every single teacher. And alongside with that, the other challenge is we were super appealing to teachers that were interested in games. [laughs]
And so when you think of some teacher who's in their 60s and has never really played any games and just thinks that they're a silly waste of time, there's a different sales pitch that needs to happen there to get them on board and a different onboarding. One of the things we had to completely overhaul was the onboarding to make it really progressive. Classcraft, now when you start it, there's no avatar. It starts super lean on the feature side so that these teachers that are, you know, we're basically educating them as they're using the platform, educating them on all this game stuff.
\n\nThere are a lot of learnings in terms of what's our actual target audience. And if our target audience starts to be enterprise customers, how do we evolve our platform to appeal to a much more diverse type of persona from a teacher standpoint?
\n\nVICTORIA: I was thinking, actually, a good friend of mine who is a teacher and has been running Dungeons & Dragons campaigns for us for several years.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nSHAWN: There you go.
\n\nVICTORIA: And, like, you'll love it. [laughs]
\n\nSHAWN: Exactly.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nVICTORIA: But I could see that being a challenge now that you're shifting your target business model, really, and how do you adapt to that?
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\n\nVICTORIA: What else are you looking ahead with Classcraft? What's on the horizon?
\n\nSHAWN: There's a lot. Like I said, we have 10 million kids in the platform plus. But we have teachers in every single country you could imagine, and there's a universality to what we're proposing. We're not saying here's the best tool for fifth-grade math in the U.S. We're saying, solve this universal human problem that's prevalent in education. And so we have teachers in, you name it, Taiwan, and Australia, and Singapore, and all over Europe using Classcraft. And so there's definitely opportunity for us to look at the international landscape and identify opportunities.
\n\nAnother frontier beyond going out of North America is going beyond the brick-and-mortar experience of the classroom. A lot of what's happening in and around your software is actually not happening 18 inches from the screen. It's happening in this context where there are 30 other kids, and there are all these interactions going on. For example, if you made a reading app, you can imagine the kids sitting in a quiet space on their sofa at home reading this thing, but the reality that's happening is they're in a really loud classroom [laughs] with lots of other kids around them, et cetera. And so the design context for designing for edtech is really interesting.
\n\nWe have some views that are meant to be only on a projector in front of the class. And when that happens, the font size needs to be 80 point because a kid in the back needs to be able to see it. So the screen real estate you're playing with is pretty unique scenarios. Like, what does this look like at 120 feet, let's say, because people are using it in the gym? So interesting design challenges, but they have been really ensconced in the idea that a lot of how people are using Classcraft is with real-life physical situations.
\n\nBut Classcraft, in essence, we have an API. So you can also imagine behaviors that are not brick and mortar behaviors, like, if I'm being participative, that's something that a teacher would see and observe and give you points for. But there are 3,000 edtech platforms, and all of them have digital behaviors that teachers want to see. They want to see kids handing in homework in these platforms. They want to go see them complete assignments. They want to go see them participating in digital communities. These are all basically the new frontier for digital behaviors that are a part now post-pandemic of the ecosystem of education.
\n\nAnd so we're really interested in connecting to other platforms. I don't need kids to be in Classcraft; I just need them every day. I need them to be earning points. And I'm happy if they're doing that in other platforms and that those interactions are rewarding them experience points and points in Classcraft. And ideally, automatically, that way, the teachers don't have to do anything.
\n\nVICTORIA: And so you're integrating with all these different platforms, and you're working with all these different school districts. So you've had to make some difficult technology choices in your stack. Do you have any examples of those?
\n\nSHAWN: Yeah, absolutely. When I started the company, I'd come out of programming in...I started building cool websites in ActionScript, [laughs] so that dates me a little bit. But I'd just come out of a decade of ActionScript and PHP. And I'm like, PHP does not scale, and it doesn't afford the same type of real-time interactions that you'd expect from a game. When I decided what the tech stack would be, right at the outset, it was, okay, we're going to do this all JavaScript. It's going to be Node. And at that time...now that's a pretty, like, anybody would make that decision. But this was nine years ago, and it wasn't as mature as it is now.
\n\nAnd so that was a pretty ballsy move and one that we never looked back on. But we had a lot of things that we had to build ourselves because the libraries didn't exist yet. And we were really pushing the edge of what was possible in a browser, especially in a browser in school with a crappy internet connection. And often, they are on older browsers. Although it was the right decision to lean into the leading edge on the tech stack, it did afford us with a lot of specific challenges that we might not have had if we'd said, oh, let's just keep this super old school.
\n\nSome other things that we've been challenged with over the years is just scaling the number of concurrent users is always a thing. When we started, we had a single database, one server, and I was doing all the DevOps. And a lot of what we've done since that is just move everything to services. So we've got, you know, MongoDB database-as-a-service. [laughs] We're all on Google Cloud now.
\n\nFrom an IT standpoint, we think a lot about what stack we're going to be using. And to me, what really matters is build the product as fast as you can and as well as you can. So outsourcing all of the DevOps pieces to cloud providers is, in my opinion, [laughs] a really good use of funds versus maintaining it yourself and spending tons of money on sys engineers and architects.
\n\nThe reality is that for most products today, what exists as a service in the cloud already bundled is, you know, and we've got auto-scaling. When there are too many concurrent users, it automatically spins up new Docker servers, et cetera. So we've really evolved from this monolithic single-server approach to this imminently highly scalable solution that is all virtualized, but in doing that, moved all of it to services.
\n\nAnd I think that's the right move because we're not, you know, if I was really, really core, if was, I don't know, [chuckles] an online video game, then the speed of connections and all these things become super important. But in our case, reliability, scalability is more important than the fine-tuning to a precise degree of specific tech infrastructure.
\n\nAnd I'm seeing more and more founders now, Victoria, as well go-to codeless solutions as well. I think we're kind of abstracting a lot of what was core to product development from a tech side. You know, first, it was the DevOps, then it was the cloud, and even now, code, I think, is moving in the direction where we're systematizing, bundling, and having other services generate code more and more. I think we're moving towards that just in software in general.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I think that is becoming prevalent. I do think low-code automation has also been coming around every 5 or 10 years or so. [laughs] I have the belief that technology never disappears; it just keeps building, and new tech gets created, and the user base shifts around a little bit. And, of course, for you as a technical founder, putting it all in Docker and setting up the auto scaling on Google is probably within your reach, whereas a lot of founders, that might be something more challenging, and you might need to have some support for.
\n\nBut that's essentially what we work on for Mission Control as well is helping teams set up their platform so that it will scale automatically that if there's an issue, you know about it in advance. [laughs] You can take care of it before it falls over, and that way, your users just see a reliable, happy system.
\n\nSHAWN: I'm so grateful that I am a technical founder. [laughs] I know a lot of founders, and the ones that don't know how to code really are at the mercy of so many unknown variables. I'm not coding anymore, but I'm very aware of what's going on in the platform. And I think that helps me make better business decisions every day. So I have a lot of gratitude when I compare myself in that regard.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I think it's really about communication then too. Like, having a good understanding of your system is helpful but being able to understand it well enough to then communicate it to other people, and what the value is, and how you want to invest money in different parts of the system. I think those are two things that having maybe a little bit more of experience in technology and then also having a teacher experience, I think, sets you up to be successful.
\n\nBut we also, of course, at thoughtbot, we offer a lot of that technical expertise to help founders navigate some of that. So there's a little pitch just for us. [laughs] But let's see, let me go through...I think I've gone through a good amount of questions. Here's one that I like to ask everybody. But if you could travel back in time to when you first started Classcraft, what would be the main piece of advice you would give yourself?
\n\nSHAWN: If I could go back, there are some big lessons that have been learned. I've been for almost a decade now as a founder and CEO. One of the things we didn't do early enough was user testing. If I split the life of Classcraft into three eras, there's the first third we didn't need to because we had all of my own experience. But once we started moving past what was the initial product that I had built in my own classroom, we continued to make assumptions.
\n\nAnd we, of course, always listen to our users, but now we're super systematic about it, and any new feature has research behind it and a really solid UX practice that we should have implemented much earlier. I think we're making much better roadmap decisions today than we were three years ago. A lot of companies hire UX people super late, and I would do that early or at least develop the chops to do it myself as early as possible. So I think that's one thing.
\n\nI think as well...and maybe this is tied to that. I think we should have and could have iterated faster as well. A lot of startups in the tech scene talk about iteration, but there's a difference between incrementally iterating and just adding on, adding on, adding on, and actually making the kind of iterative decisions that, for example, pulling part of the product and discontinuing it for example. And we've done some of those moves, but I think we could have done them faster. And we should have done them faster if we'd had that UX research data to help us make decisions faster.
\n\nSo it's more than, like, common truism is like, oh, listen to your users and listen to their feedback. Like, yes, that's true, and we were doing that. But I'd say go further and create robust structures to get that data faster, not just wait for it to come in but actually go out and get it and digest it in a way that's actually usable. Because you have a whole bunch of testimonials and feedback, but if it's not organized, it's not somebody's job to make sense of it. It's just kind of sitting there. So there's a lot of value from that perspective that you can quickly generate for your users and, therefore, for your business.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. Save you some time and some money, probably in validating your ideas, right?
\n\nSHAWN: Yeah. And the problem with education is that it's a yearly cycle, right?
\n\nVICTORIA: Mmm-hmm.
\n\nSHAWN: We're not looking at monthly scales; we're looking at the whole school year. So back to school happens once a year, and that's when you get a ton of data because that's when there's the most activity. Like, right now, August, September, October, these are the moments where we're getting the most data. And then when you make changes, you got to wait all the way back to the next back to school.
\n\nSo, in particular, in education, I think the cycles are long versus, let's say, more B2C-type consumer verticals where the test length is like a week. [laughs] So if it's coming once a year, you better make sure you're organized, I guess, is what I'm saying. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Because we only have one shot. [laughs]
\n\nSHAWN: Yeah, exactly.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. Well, thank you so much for sharing all those insights. And I want to give you a chance to promote anything else you'd like to share with our listeners.
\n\nSHAWN: Thank you so much for the conversation, Victoria. I appreciate it. I think if anybody wants to find out about Classcraft, classcraft.com, tons of content and resources that we're generating about these topics of building meaningful relationships in school but in general with human beings.
\n\nClasscraft is a B Corp, and so for people who don't know what that is, it's a certification around impact. And so we have built-in commitment to generate good in the world. And it's a pretty hard certification to get, so we're pretty proud about it. But I think that this commitment that we have of generating meaningful relationships both with kids but also with our employees, with our community, with our different stakeholders, has been really core to a lot of the decisions we make and how we make them, and how we approach different problems.
\n\nAnd so I think that as a tech founder, sometimes we can lose sight of what are we actually generating in the world. And so I would encourage people to think about, you know, if you're thinking about starting a company or thinking about your own company and the impact its having to look up that certification. But also, just look up triple bottom line, these types of concepts that are becoming more and more prevalent that really give meaning to the endeavor.
\n\nStarting a company and running it is a lot of work. You need to believe in what you're doing. [laughs] And I think having a mission that generates impact in that way is a good way to motivate yourself and your team to go the extra mile and deliver.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. And did we really cover the full impact this app has had on kids that are using it in schools?
\n\nSHAWN: There's a ton of research about Classcraft; actually, that's been done by pedagogy professors in colleges. Literally, thousands of papers have been written on Classcraft because there just aren't a lot of...everybody's interested in student motivation. There aren't a lot of scalable systems for doing that other than Classcraft. And so a lot of research that's been done about that topic incidentally happens to be using Classcraft. And a recent meta-study about Classcraft was conducted, and they saw a significant statistical impact on student motivation and learner outcomes.
\n\nAnd so it's hard in education to really understand impact easily because it's social sciences. So you need a lot of big data samples, and you need the control groups. It's complicated. So we're pretty proud about that because a lot of companies that work in education don't have that kind of hard data. It's like, okay, it seems to be having an impact. We've got pretty hard proof; literally hundreds of millions of positive behaviors that kids have done that are being reinforced every single year. And when you think about that, most kids don't get any positive feedback.
\n\nThe kids that get the most attention are the ones that are acting out and being the worst. So 90% of teacher energy is being directed at 10% of the kids, and so most kids go through school without ever feeling a sense of belonging, or accomplishment, or praise. And we've had kids write us saying, "I was suicidal. Classcraft changed my life," like these types of user testimonies where the impact, the human impact of the approach, is really, really real. And for teachers as well, like, "I was so demotivated with teaching. I found the spark again thanks to Classcraft because school is fun again." [laughs] So there's a lot to be proud of there, for sure.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's wonderful and really powerful that you've had that impact and have been able to see it both from a scientific perspective and from those user testimonies. So I think that's wonderful. And I think it's an inspiring story. And that's probably why you're also so involved; it seems, in leadership groups in edtech and in other communities in Quebec. Is that right?
\n\nSHAWN: Yeah, totally. I mean the reality...so I'm the president of the Edtech Association here in Quebec, which I helped co-found. We've got 100-plus organizations working in edtech that are part of the association. I'm also Co-chair for The Global Collective for Social Emotional Learning, Digital Learning for UNESCO. And I have been involved in numerous different systemic endeavors in education throughout the years.
\n\nThe truth is changing education is hard, and the way we're going to succeed is...it's fundamentally something I believe that we should really be focusing on as a society is improving education, education outcomes. All the positive changes we need to see to tackle the incredible challenges that are upcoming for us as a species are going to happen through education. But for that to happen, we need to make education evolve, and for education to evolve, we need to all work together.
\n\nSo the association is interesting because it's like a coopetition [laughs] in a sense. All these entrepreneurs we're all competing for the same budget dollars, but we're looking at education problems in different ways. And if we're more successful as an industry, individually, everybody's going to be more successful, and more kids are going to be impacted. So I just believe that and this is true specifically for education, but I do believe this for any vertical. If businesses are collaborating to elevate, if the water rises, everybody's boat goes up. I really believe that that's true in business in general and in education in particular.
\n\nVICTORIA: It reminds me when I was at Pluribus Digital in my last position. We were a part of the Digital Services Coalition, which is another coopetition group of federal contractors who are going after the same money. But we are all trying to see the government be better, part of that collaboration which sounds like what Classcraft is all about too. We're all in it together. [laughs]
\n\nSHAWN: Yeah. And if that's not the case, especially for incumbents, then what happens is status quo. And for startups, for tech companies, usually the status quo [laughs] is bad. That's where you're trying to generate opportunity from. But sometimes the systems that are there, government systems in particular...we've seen a lot in health as well over the last few years in clean tech. All of these impact tech sectors part of what they're fighting against are market forces of status quo. And so it's only by all working together that we can really move that.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, absolutely. I'm sure we could keep talking about that for a long time. [laughs] But unless you have anything else you'd like to share, I'll go ahead and wrap up.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
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\n\nDaniëlle Keeven is VP of Finance at Paddle, the only complete payments infrastructure provider for SaaS companies.
\n\nVictoria talks to Daniëlle about helping companies with taxes while assuming the liability and risks associated with global tax compliance, financial literacy, and taking proactive measures and steps to manage cost effectively before it is required.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nHello, United Kingdom Giant Robots listeners! Our next event allows you to hear from and connect with both founders and investors on all things fundraising. The event will be one part panel discussion and one-part breakout sessions. We hope you can make it. Register today at tbot.io/fundraising-uk.
\n\nVICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Daniëlle Keeven, VP of Finance at Paddle, the only complete payments infrastructure provider for SaaS companies. Daniëlle, thank you for joining us.
\n\nDANIËLLE: Hi, Victoria. Thank you for having me. Super excited to be here.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. Yes, I'm excited to have you here and to hear a little bit about your background. I was curious how it was different going from a finance role in a large corporation like Marriott to the startup world and to Paddle.
\n\nDANIËLLE: Well, Victoria, I was actually quite fortunate because even in the Marriotts and the Hyatts that I've been in in hospitality, I've been exposed to a lot of in the trench type of accounting and finance. Being in the Caribbean and just a Latam market, you learn to look at situations differently and make sure you work towards compliance. So I think that's really groomed me for stepping into the tech space as well, where I think following the money is the first directive of any finance professional walking into a scale-up or startup. So I think it's groomed me for the move.
\n\nBooking was a little bit easier because it was also a little bit of leisure and travel. When I stepped into a telecom for MessageBird and then Paddle as a payments end-to-end provider of infrastructure, there was a little bit of a challenge there. But I love being part of a company now that's completely a finance product which has really given finance roles a partnership with product and engineering to partner in the way forward and design of the product.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, that's exciting for us as well. And tell us a little bit about Paddle, actually.
\n\nDANIËLLE: So Paddle is an end-to-end platform. We strive not to just help software companies; we strive to do the work for them to be able to roll out globally. So basically, Paddle is the only end-to-end infrastructure that will enable you to invoice your customers and get payments support, offering different payment methods, as well as make sure you're globally compliant and file your taxes so that you don't have to.
\n\nI think what sets Paddle apart from a lot of other companies that are helping companies with tax is that we actually do it for you. In addition to that, we assume the full liability and risks associated to global tax compliance.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. Yes. And I saw a product that you all have or information that you shared called the Sales Tax Agony Index. Can you tell me a little bit about that?
\n\nDANIËLLE: Well, I think, in general, tax is painful. [laughs] I think personal tax is painful. Anything that has to do with business tax is amplified significantly. And I think for software companies, often, you build a great product, and you want to bring it up to market. But then you're limited and slowed down from really expanding globally. I mean, that is where we come in to really take up the tax burden for software creators to be able to look at it as a stepping stone instead of a roadblock if that makes sense.
\n\nVICTORIA: I think that makes a lot of sense. And it's interesting where we are right now with the current climate and economics that companies may be focusing on their finances to reduce cost but also to identify new areas to invest in, right?
\n\nDANIËLLE: Yeah, right. And I think that's super interesting to me, which I keep saying I'm not sure why not all of the software world is on Paddle. Because I think if you look out there in the market, there's such a piecemeal solution to everything. So you have to, for example, if you're going to not build your own billing, you have to outsource buying software for your billing. You have to go find a payment provider that's compatible and then the resources to get them into your platform to make sure checkout is seamless.
\n\nThen you have to get an accountant to reconcile your payment. You have to get customer support to support your customer payments. You have to get more additional headcount to make sure your chargebacks and your fraud rates stay down. And all of this, Paddle just does it for you, which I think especially in this climate where cost is becoming a subject, I think Paddle is a great business partner to enable software companies to grow at a reasonable cost and pricing, and really explore all of the global market out there versus having to do it yourself.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And Paddle could maybe help you identify where your spend also has a high return on investment. Is that right?
\n\nDANIËLLE: We do put you in direct contact with your customer, so your customers are not masked or anything like that. So you do have access to all of your customer data. And in addition to that, we've recently made an additional acquisition to grow the Paddle family by adding ProfitWell, which is really an expert in anything that has to do with retention and pricing. And we are working to integrate this product and make it available to our Paddle customers as well. So that is not something that is there today but soon will be.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, interesting. And I read a recent interview that you did, and I liked how you connected retaining your customer base to your billing and invoicing process because that might be an afterthought for a lot of startups and founders. But it is really key in keeping your customers happy is having that easy billing and invoice process. Is that your perspective?
\n\nDANIËLLE: Yeah. I definitely think that with any SaaS company, there's definitely something known as well as an abandoned cart like somebody that will, you know, maybe we do it ourselves as well when we go out shopping online. We drop stuff in our cart, and we never make it to checkout. And I think to make sure you optimize your checkout, and your revenue is to make sure that the process is as seamless as possible, that your customers can just flow through this process and not have any challenges during that journey to make sure that your conversion rates stay high.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. That makes a lot of sense. Do you have other insights about customer retention that may relate to the Paddle platform?
\n\nDANIËLLE: I think what's unique for me as a finance professional looking at the Paddle product...given I am by little biased because I do work here, and I'm a big fan of our product. But I think, and I've talked about this often, there are so many software solutions or tools that finance folks are trying to be sold. We get them sold to us, like, oh, this will automate 100%, and this will reduce this, or this will reduce that.
\n\nI think what Paddle does well and how we are uniquely positioned is that what should be automated is automated and what needs a human touch has a human touch. And what I mean with that as well is in the sense of your customers making a payment and having a challenge we actually offer customer support with real people. And we do support your customers to make sure that they have a pleasant journey in the checkout process or resolve any payment issues that they have. So I think we balance the two out.
\n\nAnd it's similar to, for example, taxes as well. We automate what we can, but we have a team of tax analysts really looking at the data and making sure everything is running correctly and is exactly compliant as it should be. So I think we bring together the best of both worlds in saying we automate a portion of the journey and where we can use and should use the human touch and intellect we do so. So we're not promising 100% percent automation. We just promise that we will do it for you by combining the best of both worlds.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense, right? Because, at some point, the automation can become more effective than hiring. But how can you scale your business without having to double your finance reporting and your tax teams, right?
\n\nDANIËLLE: And I fully agree. And I think you bring up a very interesting point. I think from my past; I had been at Booking where you were in a situation where you have an endless means of cash flow that you can really build your dream automation tools. I think a lot of the big automation that Booking has achieved in finance is really admirable, and a majority of it has been done in-house. So I think they've done a really great job with that.
\n\nBut then, when you step out of an organization like that into a smaller startup scale-up, you do not have infinite funds. You are talking mostly about cash burn and then your cash runway. And you do have to optimize between a decision of should I invest in tooling to automate? Or does it make sense for me to hire a person because hiring a person is more cost-effective than automating?
\n\nI think in a cash-tight environment, you do have to evaluate what makes more sense; sometimes, it is hiring a person. Sometimes hiring one person will get you scaled for two years. And other times, if you looked at you will have to hire one or five people per year to do a certain task, then it makes sense definitely to invest in automation because the cost will be upfront, but the benefits will be scalable, and you'll have definitely benefits from that point.
\n\nVICTORIA: And there's a mix of you need people to do the work, but you also need to give them the tools to be able to do their job, right?
\n\nDANIËLLE: Yes, I think most of us in finance still find that Excel is our best friend. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Well, I won't complain about Excel myself. I have a background in economics, an undergraduate, so I'm an Excel pro.
\n\nDANIËLLE: Yeah, I think definitely Excel has brought us all a very long way. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: So what's different about your customers that you're targeting with Paddle? What's unique about them?
\n\nDANIËLLE: I think what is unique about them is that we want to really bring the creator of softwares their dreams to life, which means it's almost like we want to dream with them if that makes sense. We want to make sure that whatever they build becomes available to the world, whether they are a small startup or a small company or if they are a giant in the industry and very good at their skills.
\n\nSo we want to target the entire market for software. And I think what makes them unique is that our customers are usually a fan of our product, but we are a fan of theirs. So I think, typically, that works both ways really well.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And do you find that your customers are facing a different set of challenges today than they might have a year ago?
\n\nDANIËLLE: I think the SaaS industry has changed. I think it's no secret that definitely the economic landscape has shifted. I think we were very fortunate to close our Series D in very favorable circumstances before the climate changed. I do think it will change back, and I don't think this is all doom and gloom. But I also do think that we are all facing the situation where we should be taking proactive measures and steps to manage our cost effectively before it is actually required. For some of the SaaS industries, it may already be required, and for others, I think even those doing well should be mindful to take steps where possible.
\n\nCutting costs does not necessarily mean cutting quality or immediately reducing staff. I think it just is more taking a step back and critically looking at your spend to see, do I have opportunity to renegotiate existing contracts? Are there, especially in my cost of goods sold, can I get this reduced somehow without reducing the quality of my product and what we're delivering as a business? And I think these are very good and big opportunities that we can definitely seize in addition to our operational spend. Just taking a critical look at this can really go a long way.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes sense. It sounds like, as a VP of finance, those are things that you might be able to bring to the table. Or tell me more about how the role of a finance person plays in a startup in making some of those decisions.
\n\nDANIËLLE: I think the role of a finance person is super critical in the sense of you're looking back to see what the spend was and where we've been and to look forward to what the trends will be. You're also trying to inspire vision and strategy and work together with the sales team to both have realistic forecasts on what we will do, can do, and what we'll actually deliver.
\n\nAnd I think as a finance leader, more than ever, it is so needed for us to partner with the business instead of being chucked away in a corner somewhere processing financial reports or looking at them. So I think the finance literacy is definitely something that we can add to our organizations. I'll give you an example, as we rolled out our budget, it wasn't just to deliver it to the board or to our executive committee, but it was also to talk about it with our senior leadership.
\n\nI think the senior leadership is also so critical to any organization to say, "Hey, we are going to commit together with our own leaders to make sure that we're executing the plan and that we will also get all of our teams to partner and create that buy-in as a company."
\n\nSo I think as a finance leader, it's not just my job to go out there and say, "Hey, we have to cut costs," but also to explain what is happening to the economic climate, why we have to cut costs, and what are the benefits of doing it before it is needed. And definitely paving the road to say, "Hey, this is beneficial for all of us because these are our financial goals that we can achieve, but we can only achieve them together."
\n\nSo I think creating that buy-in and building that team across the organization that is committed to the correct finance management is super critical in this day and age. It used to be that it was just finance's role to watch the finances; I think now it's a collaborative effort of the entire company.
\n\nVICTORIA: I really like that I have a background in DevOps, and that's breaking down silos between different parts of the organization. And so I love to hear that finance is getting really involved and be a part of the overall decisions that everyone's making in the company, right?
\n\nDANIËLLE: Yeah, definitely.
\n\nVICTORIA: How does Paddle build stakeholder buy-in within the company? What does that process look like for you all?
\n\nDANIËLLE: I think very early on, we identified that, obviously, our executive team is key. I think this is the tip of the arrow really leading the organization in giving vision and direction. I find that we've been very fortunate, in my humble opinion, because we have a great CEO and a great COO. And I really enjoy working with the entire executive team. They're just a wonderful group of people. Besides being amazing professionals, they're just generally nice, [chuckles] which is always great.
\n\nBut we've identified early on that actually your senior leadership right underneath that is so critical to your company's culture, how you hire, how you buy, how you move, how you invest, but also how would your future be like. Because while the executive team definitely is key in giving the direction, the vision, and mission, I think the team right underneath that, the senior leadership team, is really the one that is going to go out there and materialize that dream and vision, and really live that dream, and really get the right people and to get the job done.
\n\nSo I think what we've identified early on is to make everybody an active stakeholder, do the planning together. Like, before the executive team rolls out a mission and vision, it's not going to be a total surprise to the senior leadership. We've all taken part of it, and we've all supported it, and we've discussed it, and we've fine-tuned it. So I think definitely taking people along in the journey goes a long way.
\n\nThe other thing I think that is very critical is just being transparent and being honest. At the end of the day, we're people. We want to know what's happening, why it's happening, and what we're working towards. And I think that is something that Paddle has done very well as well internally as a team. We have great values and great focus on what we want to deliver, where we want to go, and we definitely are focused on doing so together.
\n\nVICTORIA: That sounds great. You all have a shared vision of where you're going and where you are currently. And that probably helps get everyone on board with what we're working on in the future. It gets everyone motivated a little bit more, right?
\n\nDANIËLLE: Correct. Exactly.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, is there anything particularly exciting coming up with Paddle that you are looking forward to?
\n\nDANIËLLE: I think I'm super excited to see what ProfitWell, how it will integrate, and the product that it will offer, and the opportunities that it will offer to our Paddle customers. I'm super excited to see that materialize and seeing all of this come together. We've been waiting, and we've been working towards this deal for a very long time, so seeing it materialize is quite exciting. And I'm definitely looking forward to that.
\n\nVICTORIA: And do you think that that cultural strength you mentioned with Paddle and having that transparency and quality of support from the leadership does that help translate when you're doing big deals like that and closing deals with other companies?
\n\nDANIËLLE: Yeah, it definitely does. I think, in general, the finance team has had quite an exciting first half of the year. I want to say, you know, being in Series D, having due diligence done, ProfitWell, at the same time preparing for an audit, having your financial team build out your reporting. I think we've had so many things run at the same time, and the pressures are quite high. So I think just having that positive culture together as a team gives you strength as well together to be your best self under pressure instead of really crumbling or not getting along and struggling with it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that makes total sense. If you feel like you're supported by other humans in your company, [laughs] then when you're stressed, it makes it easier to get along. That makes a lot of sense. Do you have any other advice for finance leaders or startups who are navigating the economic downturn at this time?
\n\nDANIËLLE: I would say keep an eye open. Do not stop investing. Do be critical about your ROI. Make sure that where you're spending your money is where it makes the most sense for the business, and just keep an eye out for opportunity. Because just because the climate has turned does not mean that it will not turn back, and it does mean that there are loads of opportunities out there that we can still seize as a business.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. It means that different markets are more active, right? [laughs]
\n\nDANIËLLE: Usually. Correct.
\n\nVICTORIA: Do you have any questions for me or for thoughtbot?
\n\nDANIËLLE: I'm just curious, for you as well, what's your favorite subject that you discuss on thoughtbot?
\n\nVICTORIA: Ooh, a favorite subject. That's tough because I love hearing from our designers and our developers. We have many developers who are some core contributors to Rails, and so they are very knowledgeable about things like we have random meetups that happen at thoughtbot. So you can sign up and just randomly pair up with somebody else in the company.
\n\nAnd the first random meetup I had, I met up with someone who is like the expert on security [laughs] and dotfiles and helped me finish setting up my developer environment. And so I love that at thoughtbot, you can start a random conversation with someone, and they'll end up having this wealth of knowledge around a particular subject that you might have been struggling with and can just immediately solve your problem.
\n\nI also like the fun parts. There's actually a blog that just captures all of our jokes from Slack [laughter] just… So it's a part of like making it fun and being human at work and kind of showing up with your whole self. I think that adds a cultural strength for those moments like you describe when things are difficult, or you have a hard project. You feel bonded to your teammates and feel like you're all working together, and that positivity stays throughout.
\n\nDANIËLLE: Yes, definitely.
\n\nVICTORIA: So, are you currently in Amsterdam? Is that right?
\n\nDANIËLLE: I am based in the Netherlands. I'm actually based in Alkmaar, which is 30 minutes outside of Amsterdam, but I typically say Amsterdam because that's the city that most people know where it's at. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Same for me. I go with San Diego, but I'm actually in Encinitas. It's a little bit further north. So is there a difference, or what is the startup environment or community like in Europe then?
\n\nDANIËLLE: I think I'm quite impressed because before moving to the Netherlands, I wasn't aware there was so much happening, but there are actually some channels called Silicon Canals, so the canals for the boats, so it's a bit of a play on words. And there's such a vibrant startup and scale-up community in the Netherlands, which was quite surprising for me to run into. So I do think by nature...I was born in the Netherlands, and I moved to Aruba when I was five. So I wasn't raised here.
\n\nBut I think if I look at the Dutch culture, it is quite innovative. And they do tend to find different ways of doing things when it comes to water or building dams. And I think that curiosity and innovation has moved over to the tech space. So I think that Amsterdam is definitely a city to watch in terms of scale-ups that pop up and the progress that they make.
\n\nVICTORIA: I've heard a lot about new technologies and new solutions coming out of the Netherlands with agriculture specifically, but I am not surprised that there's a burgeoning startup community there. [laughs] That's wonderful.
\n\nDANIËLLE: Yeah, it's quite exciting.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's very cool. All right, is there anything that you expected me to ask that I did not ask?
\n\nDANIËLLE: No, I can't think of anything off the top of my head. I think we covered quite a bit.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes. I'm watching the time and making sure that I'm giving you enough time.
\n\nDANIËLLE: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: I liked this quote from your blog, actually, so I'll repeat it here, "Bad companies are destroyed by crises, good companies survive them, and great companies are improved by them."
\n\nDANIËLLE: Yes, that is definitely one of my favorites.
\n\nVICTORIA: Do you have an example of a company where they went through a crisis, and they came out great afterwards?
\n\nDANIËLLE: I have a friend of mine, actually, that started a company called Limelights. And I think when he started this, he was so focused on marketing and development and so on. When the COVID crisis hit...and he's actually the one that shared that quote with me, we're close friends. He was sharing with me that quote and how he has completely revamped his company from a marketing company, which is basically the first thing that most companies...the expense they started cutting, to an online learning platform, and events, and team development program.
\n\nSo I think he's done this so successfully that his business started thriving during the COVID period. And still now, after when things are relatively normalized in the tech space and just the overall spend, he is doing better than he did before this happened. His story of his company was so inspirational to me. And we were talking about that quote, and I'm just like, that's it. That's exactly that innovative culture that you want to see in times of crisis.
\n\nYou don't want people to back down and say, "Oh, times are hard. Let's just ride this out." You want people to start looking around, like, how can we do this differently? And how can we navigate these new waters that we're in? And proactively be engaged with your environment to really find alternatives to what is happening.
\n\nVICTORIA: I would guess that having a clear picture on your finances and your customer information would help you be able to make those pivots. Is that right? And how Paddle can help you get out of those [inaudible 23:21]
\n\nDANIËLLE: Yes, that is definitely correct. [laughs] Like I said, we're an end-to-end platform. So you can literally have all of your data at the tip of your fingers to make sure that you make the right financial decisions in addition to us taking off some of the financial tasks off of your plate. Like I said, we want to do it for our customers, make sure that everything is running smoothly. So I think this is a massive opportunity for companies to have additional support in their processes because we take them over to a degree as well as indeed have clarity and transparency into their financial reporting and how their revenue streams are doing.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. Because I imagine that task that work to put all that together would take up a lot of founder's time.
\n\nDANIËLLE: Yes.
\n\nVICTORIA: So freeing up that time and giving you a chance to understand where you're at now, and where you can go, and be able to pivot in those times of crisis.
\n\nDANIËLLE: Exactly.
\n\nVICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. Has Paddle found that offering free information or these tools like the Sales Tax Agony Index does that help you bring customers into your platform?
\n\nDANIËLLE: Yes, definitely. I think there's a bit of humor here as well. Obviously, this was not put together by a finance person. [laughs] But I do love that our sales and marketing team is super creative in bringing the finance story and the tax story to life. I think as soon as people hear tax, if you can tune out, you do. So I think they've done a great job at pointing out the Sales Tax Agony Index, and they are not exaggerating. [laughs]
\n\nIn many of the jurisdictions, it is quite challenging. And I think one thing that makes it challenging as well...so while software is not new to most of us as users, software is still quite new to most governments, and most countries are not certain when or how to tax this. So I think everybody is trying to figure this out globally, which is where we can step into the space, as well as we do monitor the global landscape for taxes.
\n\nThe changes happen fast. They happen continuously. And implementation of taxes is not always logical because taxes are not always logical. So I think looking at the tax agony that our sales and marketing team has put together is definitely not an over-exaggeration. I think the risks are real for misunderstanding or misreading the tax laws that are in place, and so that's where we come in to really bring our experts and really dissect some of the meanings of these. We have partners globally to ensure compliance.
\n\nI think that the tax that is charged on software can be so variable that, as a business by yourself, it's going to be super tricky to monitor. Like in some countries, the software is taxed locally only if you sell to a local customer. It is not taxed locally if it's sold internationally. So there are so many little hooks and needles. In some countries, you don't have to pay tax unless you exceed X amount of sales on your software. So all of these rules and regulations can be quite obstacles and blockers to rolling out your business globally.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. I hadn't even thought about a lot of that complexity. One of the things I'm excited about most with thoughtbot is that it's an international company. And so I'm out of my DC bubble, and we have customers in England and team members all over the world. So I think it's exciting that there's a product out there that can help you navigate things like taxes across all different countries, which I wouldn't have even thought would be that big of a problem, but apparently, it is. [laughs]
\n\nDANIËLLE: And I think especially when you talk about the tax agony panel, you can also see what the challenges are, and worst penalties, and fines, and prison.
\n\nVICTORIA: [laughs] Yeah, right? It's like, it's very difficult, and the agony is high, and the penalty is high. [laughter] So that's...you don't want to go to prison for accidentally misunderstanding the tax code. That's a real serious risk that you'd face.
\n\nDANIËLLE: Yes, it is. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Awesome. Do you want to do any final takeaways for our listeners today?
\n\nDANIËLLE: I would say chin up. The economic downturn is not going to last forever. While it's good to look for opportunity to save costs, it's also a great opportunity and moment to look for the right investments to make to grow your company.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Daniëlle. I really enjoyed our conversation.
\n\nDANIËLLE: Thank you, Victoria. It was great meeting you.
\n\nVICTORIA: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm.
\n\nIf you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Daniëlle Keeven.
","summary":"Daniëlle Keeven is VP of Finance at Paddle, the only complete payments infrastructure provider for SaaS companies.\r\n\r\nVictoria talks to Daniëlle about helping companies with taxes while assuming the liability and risks associated with global tax compliance, financial literacy, and taking proactive measures and steps to manage cost effectively before it is required.","date_published":"2022-10-13T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/6fb563c3-6945-4a0b-ada2-6e5816a0b1b2.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":32142349,"duration_in_seconds":1706}]},{"id":"4ab43741-7b12-4838-bcd3-e74cf389fe8b","title":"443: Airbrake with Göran Sandahl","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/443","content_text":"Hello UK Giant Robots listeners! Our next event allows you to hear from and connect with both Founders and Investors on all things Fundraising. The event will be 1 part panel discussion and 1 part breakout sessions. We hope you can make it! Register today at: tbot.io/fundraising-uk\n\nGöran Sandahl is Director of Growth at Airbrake LogicMonitor, frictionless error monitoring and performance insights for your entire app stack.\n\nVictoria talks to Göran about having a product-led growth engine, how Airbrake can help developers identify and solve errors and bugs in applications, and developing a product geared towards a specific segment of the market.\n\n\nAirbrake\nFollow Airbrake on Twitter, GitHub, Facebook, YouTube, or LinkedIn.\nFollow Göran on Twitter or LinkedIn. \nFollow thoughtbot on Twitter or LinkedIn.\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nVICTORIA: This is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Göran Sandahl, Director of Growth at Airbrake LogicMonitor, frictionless error monitoring and performance insights for your entire app stack. Göran, thank you for joining us.\n\nGÖRAN: Thanks for having me.\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. So just tell me a little bit more about Airbrake and how it all got started.\n\nGÖRAN: So Airbrake is, as you said, an error and performance monitoring tool. It was actually, funnily enough, started as a side-project within thoughtbot. So it's a little bit full circle here joining this podcast here. But I'm a recent addition to Airbrake, so I don't know the details of the time when they started over ten years ago. So talking about Airbrake and the journey since then, lots of things have happened with Airbrake. \n\nIt has gone through multiple acquisitions since then, both from industry players on the infrastructure side to various venture capital investors buying the company. And now Airbrake is owned by LogicMonitor, who bought Airbrake somewhat like a year ago. And it focuses exclusively on the developer audience for LogicMonitor.\n\nAnd I lead growth, so I work with our growth team. We have a product-led growth engine. So we don't do a lot of traditional sales or anything like that, so a lot of it is word of mouth. And this is something that drew me to Airbrake was its strong kind of grassroots movement in Ruby and other web and application languages. So that's what I know about Airbrake's early days, which isn't a lot.\n\nVICTORIA: Right. It was the very first exception monitoring service in the world. And we grew it to have three people working full time on it. And then, like what you said, it was sold to someone else who went on to continue to grow it. And it has been through several acquisitions. And from your perspective today, where is this service originally called Hoptoad [laughs], and then now it's Airbrake? And what kind of scale are you seeing? What are your customers like today?\n\nGÖRAN: Obviously, I don't know exactly how the product looked like back then. But a lot of it, I think, has stayed the same. It focuses on simple error monitoring, simple performance monitoring, and simple deployment tracking. So it's pretty much the same focus I believe in the product. This is what makes it stand out still today.\n\nWe can talk about observability, and happy to do that. This is my third company that I've been working for as a monitoring company, so I know fairly a bit about it. Airbrake today is heavily focused on...we focus on what we call lean dev teams. We focus on the teams that try to move a little bit quicker, maybe than what they may, doesn't necessarily have the backup of an ops team or a DevOps team. \n\nSo we really focus on building a product that is fully self-service that you can get started within a minute on your own. So that implies good UX, good documentation, and also that we can meet our users where they are. So we're focusing today on things like community building and those things for supporting our users. So we have lots of customers, really good brand names. First and foremost, super interesting stories from many of our customers who navigate that art of building product quickly.\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. I like that you phrased it as your user experience, which is your development teams, right? And do you have more of a perspective around the developer experience and how to capture that and really create something that's useful when you're delivering in those high-velocity environments?\n\nGÖRAN: As I said, I've been working for three monitoring companies. The first one I founded was 12 years ago. We built a product that we tried to coin the market called algorithmic monitoring, that later turned into something called AIOps. Yeah, there are a lot of buzzwords around that, applying AI to identifying problems in software. We were really early on that. \n\nOne thing that we learned from that journey...we ended up selling that company to LogicMonitor, which is why I'm eventually here. What we learned then is that you can have a really good monitoring product, but ultimately, the people that fix the problem that gets discovered is the most important person for a monitoring tool to get into true effectiveness. \n\nSo when I came across Airbrake, when they were acquired by LogicMonitor, and I had the opportunity to join, that's what drove me to decide to join. It's really that simplicity in terms of I think there are two schools, right? Either you promote a tool that all your software engineers should use, and you try to build centralized, structured processes around that. You make the template thing and things like that so that everybody can get up and running really quickly with monitoring. \n\nOr you take the approach of something like Airbrake, where it's built to be easy. If you know the language, if you know the code, then you know how to basically instrument it. And these features are simple enough to get going on your own. So that's the path that Airbrake is on. So it's built to be simple from the gate, so to speak. \n\nNow, Airbrake and monitoring and observability is a complicated problem when you have software issues. They're not always easy to diagnose or get to the root cause of. So there's a lot of struggle for users to unwind the bugs and actually fix them. But we try to do the best to provide enough context so they can take the next step.\n\nVICTORIA: And maybe you have an example or something to illustrate how that tool can help developers identify and solve those errors and bugs in the application.\n\nGÖRAN: All software has issues, right? There are bugs in all kinds of software. I've always been fascinated with something called latent bugs, or dark death is another framing of it, which is essentially the bugs that are hidden in your code. And when we have an outage, something triggers that bug to happen, but that bug was there. \n\nSo if we think about it like that, that all of our software, all the code we run, all the commits we do is probably adding a lot of value, but they're also adding fragility or potential for problems, then you need to be really good at identifying when those bugs get activated. And sometimes, actually in, the majority of times...so that's why you need error monitoring, right? Just the ability to see that there is an error, there's a new error in production or in our staging environment, or wherever it might be. So that's error monitoring. \n\nIt turns out about 80% of outages are self-inflicted in a way. They're caused by the changes when we build software or when we reconfigure things. And 80% that means that you need to be able to track changes really well. So you need to understand how and when changes happen so you can understand if what you did worked or didn't, so that's why we have deployment tracking, to be able to correlate those errors with the release, the commit, the line of code you added to the codebase. \n\nAnd then, of course, performance monitoring which is the ability to see where you have bottlenecks, which is not maybe bugs but where you have poor performance or poor experience for users. And it could be in a shopping cart checkout job. It could also be a scheduled cron job that's supposed to clean up stuff that is late. It could be just a rendering time of something that is longer than usual, and you just want to be aware of it. So that is kind of performance monitoring. \n\nSo those are the three main focuses for us as a product. We like to believe that it is easy to get going within a couple of minutes. And that's what we're kind of focusing on providing.\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. And your tool is able to just spin up quickly, be able to quickly get that insight into what's happening as you're deploying code and as you're pushing changes to production. Do you call that all observability? Or, in your mind, what is observability? And what are the really key things that you think that all developers should be watching?\n\nGÖRAN: That is a good question. Part of what fascinates me about the Airbrake userbase and what I've got to learn about Ruby and some of those languages which were a little bit foreign to me as a backend engineer, like an algorithm junkie, so to speak...so what fascinates me is how little monitoring is typically done by many teams that's working on web applications. So coming from the infrastructure monitoring side, that's where this term observability grew. And you have these metrics, logs, and traces kind of triad. And every web application, every web browser has had tracing built in the developer console or the web browser. \n\nSo some of these tools that are available now to infrastructure monitoring teams in the form of observability have been available to web developers for quite some time, so I don't necessarily think observability is a term that explains a lot for applications and web developers. But for infrastructure, more infrastructure-oriented teams where you have lots of microservices and things like that, we needed a term to explain the full range of capabilities we needed. But I'm not so sure we need the similar amount of complexity because there is a lot of complexity in those tools and lots of data. \n\nBut I'm not so sure we need the same complexity when speaking about monitoring on slightly more lightweight applications and web apps. That said, we're starting to mimic a lot of the architectural paradigms of the infrastructure, such as microservices, in terms of micro frontends. So a lot of that complexity is entering into the web as well. So, who knows? [laughs]\n\nMIDROLL AD: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? \n\nWe know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it’s easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn’t looking.\n\nBy delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer.\n\nSave time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops.\n\nVICTORIA: So the customer or clients for Airbrake are developers who are doing web applications and need that kind of just the information they need [chuckles] to be able to make sure their changes to code is not affecting the production and that your product is trending towards observability practices that might be a little overmatch to what you will need. \n\nGÖRAN: Yeah, that is what we're focusing on. But when you have a lot of customers and a lot of users, there's always this exotic, for us, exotic use cases. So I'm 100% sure there are really large customers that are using us in a more traditional DevOps fashion and not on web apps. I mean, we have support for most of the languages from Go to Python to .NET to Ruby. So there's nothing keeping Go developers from adopting something like Airbrake. \n\nBut we do know that we're particularly strong within JavaScript and Ruby, and I think that speaks for the experience that it's easy to get going, et cetera, rather than something like Grafana or another more traditional observability tool that's a little bit out of reach maybe for the web or application developer.\n\nVICTORIA: So when you're developing your product towards this specific segment of the market, what other differences do you notice between who you're targeting or who you're expecting your customer to be versus the wider range of people you could be marketing this towards?\n\nGÖRAN: So I think everybody wants to go after the developer and the needs of the developer. This is, so to speak, trendy nowadays. And it's obvious because so much of the value and innovation happening is done [chuckles] in the editor. So it's natural that a lot of the focus is being placed there. \n\nWe're focusing on where we're strong, and I think that's the best way to do it unless the market is small. And I see application development growing for the foreseeable future. I think we're seeing trends of things like no-code, or low-code, or whatever we choose to call it. The infrastructure is being abstracted more and more. \n\nSo from that perspective, I think we have a good strategy for providing that simplicity that users come to expect when building modern apps today. We're pairing with other kinds of innovations on how you build code, basically from things like Vercel to Webflow to whatever it might be, right?\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And do you find that collaborative approach is more effective in business-to-business sales for this type of client?\n\nGÖRAN: We're very focused on this just try it kind of approach, so that's how we do most of our direct communications with our users. So we want to let the app speak for itself. And we believe that once usage happens, then additional needs will happen or will arise that we can maybe serve in other ways. \n\nSo we do have a free tier, free forever free tier, so you can use Airbrake pretty much forever but in a small scale. And then, like normal, when you start adding colleagues or lots of errors and lots of projects, then you need to upgrade to a paid plan. And we're also launching some new tiers here in the foreseeable future as well. \n\nVICTORIA: Oh, tell me more about that.\n\nGÖRAN: As teams mature...I don't know if that's the right word, but at some point, a lot of these teams may want a little bit more structure when they do monitoring. So I mentioned that we're pretty much self-service, completely self-service. But at some point, when you start using a product a lot, you start to integrate it into your core processes. So new things start to matter, things like who did that change? Who reconfigured that? Who logged in the last time? Has anybody seen that thing? But also to things like payment things. The different issues that can arise change, right? \n\nVICTORIA: Mm-hmm.\n\nGÖRAN: So we're launching a pro tier in the future that will cater to a little bit more of the needs of the team that has grown into maybe having a manager that asks questions about how things are set up, et cetera, but also, where you can control teams and people a little bit better, where you can also control your costs a little bit. \n\nSo one of the features is on-demand billing. So the more errors you pay on your tier...you can produce up to a certain set of errors and performance events, and if you go above that, you pay an on-demand fee. And there are some protections built in for that if you're on the pro plan and things like that. So it's about catering to growing needs of a little bit larger teams but still the team that wants to move fast.\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And I believe you said that you have plans to communicate and engage with the community, and that probably helps you understand some of those needs. And so what kind of plans do you have coming up that you'd like to share?\n\nGÖRAN: So one of the things we know is with all the Airbrake use, we probably have a lot of fans out there, but we might not have been the best to actually tap into that and serve that community. So we want to really invest in understanding, getting to know that community, and serving that in the best way we can. So we will see exactly which form that will take. \n\nBut it starts with the basics, opening up a Slack community that we can allow users to join and ask questions or maybe hopefully get value out of their peers without talking to us maybe. But we can also serve them in various ways with support, et cetera. So it will start pretty basic, but I think it's a pretty standard playbook nowadays. \n\nBut for us, it's really about we're genuinely...we think our users are awesome, and we would love to be able to share their stories and connect them with other peers. So I think that's the driving motivation. And then, of course, we have some data that also shows that it is a good investment in itself, that the stories our customers tell are much better than the stories we tell. So yeah, we're excited about that for sure. \n\nAnd it's connected to this bottoms up motion from where Airbrake grew from, that it grew as a solution that served the community really well. And we want to go back to those roots and be the best tool for that kind of user.\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, I love that. It sounds like a really great, full-circle journey for the product. And is there anything else you want to share about entrepreneurship and starting up products like this? What advice would you give to someone who had developed this type of product that served the community well and wanted to turn it into a product and a business?\n\nGÖRAN: So I think the community building is relatively new for us, so I'm not sure the advice there is so valuable. But in terms of entrepreneurship, I think this is one of the more important decisions you make as an entrepreneur or founder is how will you grow demand for your product and how will you distribute the product? And how will you ultimately monetize the product? And there are so many different ways. \n\nAnd depending on what your growth expectations are, you might be asked to go in one direction or another one. And my advice would be to really find product-market fit and that I think happens best by staying close to the end users, and then you can look at strategies for monetization, including direct sales or channel or, as Airbrake does, product-led freemium basically. But reach product-market fit first so you can decide with knowing how your product dynamics and adoption dynamics works, and let that influence the kind of strategy for the business strategy basically rather than the other way around. \n\nVICTORIA: Right. That makes sense. And then, if your product is geared towards developers, they're just like any other users. And you have to reach them and get their feedback and understand how the product fits into the market. \n\nGÖRAN: Yeah, exactly. \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Great. All right. Do you have any questions for me at this time? \n\nGÖRAN: Not really. It was a pleasure being on the podcast. I'm a fan so hope you can cover up my errors there.\n\n[laughter]\n\nVICTORIA: I think that if you want to go back and remove, we totally can. But are there any other major takeaways you want people to walk away with about Airbrake or, in general, about entrepreneurship? \n\nGÖRAN: That's about it, I think.\n\nVICTORIA: All right. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. \n\nIf you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @victori_ousg.\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. \n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.Special Guest: Göran Sandahl.Sponsored By:thoughtbot: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? \r\n\r\nWe know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it’s easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn’t looking.\r\n\r\nBy delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer.\r\n\r\nSave time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops","content_html":"Hello UK Giant Robots listeners! Our next event allows you to hear from and connect with both Founders and Investors on all things Fundraising. The event will be 1 part panel discussion and 1 part breakout sessions. We hope you can make it! Register today at: tbot.io/fundraising-uk
\n\nGöran Sandahl is Director of Growth at Airbrake LogicMonitor, frictionless error monitoring and performance insights for your entire app stack.
\n\nVictoria talks to Göran about having a product-led growth engine, how Airbrake can help developers identify and solve errors and bugs in applications, and developing a product geared towards a specific segment of the market.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nVICTORIA: This is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Göran Sandahl, Director of Growth at Airbrake LogicMonitor, frictionless error monitoring and performance insights for your entire app stack. Göran, thank you for joining us.
\n\nGÖRAN: Thanks for having me.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. So just tell me a little bit more about Airbrake and how it all got started.
\n\nGÖRAN: So Airbrake is, as you said, an error and performance monitoring tool. It was actually, funnily enough, started as a side-project within thoughtbot. So it's a little bit full circle here joining this podcast here. But I'm a recent addition to Airbrake, so I don't know the details of the time when they started over ten years ago. So talking about Airbrake and the journey since then, lots of things have happened with Airbrake.
\n\nIt has gone through multiple acquisitions since then, both from industry players on the infrastructure side to various venture capital investors buying the company. And now Airbrake is owned by LogicMonitor, who bought Airbrake somewhat like a year ago. And it focuses exclusively on the developer audience for LogicMonitor.
\n\nAnd I lead growth, so I work with our growth team. We have a product-led growth engine. So we don't do a lot of traditional sales or anything like that, so a lot of it is word of mouth. And this is something that drew me to Airbrake was its strong kind of grassroots movement in Ruby and other web and application languages. So that's what I know about Airbrake's early days, which isn't a lot.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. It was the very first exception monitoring service in the world. And we grew it to have three people working full time on it. And then, like what you said, it was sold to someone else who went on to continue to grow it. And it has been through several acquisitions. And from your perspective today, where is this service originally called Hoptoad [laughs], and then now it's Airbrake? And what kind of scale are you seeing? What are your customers like today?
\n\nGÖRAN: Obviously, I don't know exactly how the product looked like back then. But a lot of it, I think, has stayed the same. It focuses on simple error monitoring, simple performance monitoring, and simple deployment tracking. So it's pretty much the same focus I believe in the product. This is what makes it stand out still today.
\n\nWe can talk about observability, and happy to do that. This is my third company that I've been working for as a monitoring company, so I know fairly a bit about it. Airbrake today is heavily focused on...we focus on what we call lean dev teams. We focus on the teams that try to move a little bit quicker, maybe than what they may, doesn't necessarily have the backup of an ops team or a DevOps team.
\n\nSo we really focus on building a product that is fully self-service that you can get started within a minute on your own. So that implies good UX, good documentation, and also that we can meet our users where they are. So we're focusing today on things like community building and those things for supporting our users. So we have lots of customers, really good brand names. First and foremost, super interesting stories from many of our customers who navigate that art of building product quickly.
\n\nVICTORIA: That's great. I like that you phrased it as your user experience, which is your development teams, right? And do you have more of a perspective around the developer experience and how to capture that and really create something that's useful when you're delivering in those high-velocity environments?
\n\nGÖRAN: As I said, I've been working for three monitoring companies. The first one I founded was 12 years ago. We built a product that we tried to coin the market called algorithmic monitoring, that later turned into something called AIOps. Yeah, there are a lot of buzzwords around that, applying AI to identifying problems in software. We were really early on that.
\n\nOne thing that we learned from that journey...we ended up selling that company to LogicMonitor, which is why I'm eventually here. What we learned then is that you can have a really good monitoring product, but ultimately, the people that fix the problem that gets discovered is the most important person for a monitoring tool to get into true effectiveness.
\n\nSo when I came across Airbrake, when they were acquired by LogicMonitor, and I had the opportunity to join, that's what drove me to decide to join. It's really that simplicity in terms of I think there are two schools, right? Either you promote a tool that all your software engineers should use, and you try to build centralized, structured processes around that. You make the template thing and things like that so that everybody can get up and running really quickly with monitoring.
\n\nOr you take the approach of something like Airbrake, where it's built to be easy. If you know the language, if you know the code, then you know how to basically instrument it. And these features are simple enough to get going on your own. So that's the path that Airbrake is on. So it's built to be simple from the gate, so to speak.
\n\nNow, Airbrake and monitoring and observability is a complicated problem when you have software issues. They're not always easy to diagnose or get to the root cause of. So there's a lot of struggle for users to unwind the bugs and actually fix them. But we try to do the best to provide enough context so they can take the next step.
\n\nVICTORIA: And maybe you have an example or something to illustrate how that tool can help developers identify and solve those errors and bugs in the application.
\n\nGÖRAN: All software has issues, right? There are bugs in all kinds of software. I've always been fascinated with something called latent bugs, or dark death is another framing of it, which is essentially the bugs that are hidden in your code. And when we have an outage, something triggers that bug to happen, but that bug was there.
\n\nSo if we think about it like that, that all of our software, all the code we run, all the commits we do is probably adding a lot of value, but they're also adding fragility or potential for problems, then you need to be really good at identifying when those bugs get activated. And sometimes, actually in, the majority of times...so that's why you need error monitoring, right? Just the ability to see that there is an error, there's a new error in production or in our staging environment, or wherever it might be. So that's error monitoring.
\n\nIt turns out about 80% of outages are self-inflicted in a way. They're caused by the changes when we build software or when we reconfigure things. And 80% that means that you need to be able to track changes really well. So you need to understand how and when changes happen so you can understand if what you did worked or didn't, so that's why we have deployment tracking, to be able to correlate those errors with the release, the commit, the line of code you added to the codebase.
\n\nAnd then, of course, performance monitoring which is the ability to see where you have bottlenecks, which is not maybe bugs but where you have poor performance or poor experience for users. And it could be in a shopping cart checkout job. It could also be a scheduled cron job that's supposed to clean up stuff that is late. It could be just a rendering time of something that is longer than usual, and you just want to be aware of it. So that is kind of performance monitoring.
\n\nSo those are the three main focuses for us as a product. We like to believe that it is easy to get going within a couple of minutes. And that's what we're kind of focusing on providing.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. And your tool is able to just spin up quickly, be able to quickly get that insight into what's happening as you're deploying code and as you're pushing changes to production. Do you call that all observability? Or, in your mind, what is observability? And what are the really key things that you think that all developers should be watching?
\n\nGÖRAN: That is a good question. Part of what fascinates me about the Airbrake userbase and what I've got to learn about Ruby and some of those languages which were a little bit foreign to me as a backend engineer, like an algorithm junkie, so to speak...so what fascinates me is how little monitoring is typically done by many teams that's working on web applications. So coming from the infrastructure monitoring side, that's where this term observability grew. And you have these metrics, logs, and traces kind of triad. And every web application, every web browser has had tracing built in the developer console or the web browser.
\n\nSo some of these tools that are available now to infrastructure monitoring teams in the form of observability have been available to web developers for quite some time, so I don't necessarily think observability is a term that explains a lot for applications and web developers. But for infrastructure, more infrastructure-oriented teams where you have lots of microservices and things like that, we needed a term to explain the full range of capabilities we needed. But I'm not so sure we need the similar amount of complexity because there is a lot of complexity in those tools and lots of data.
\n\nBut I'm not so sure we need the same complexity when speaking about monitoring on slightly more lightweight applications and web apps. That said, we're starting to mimic a lot of the architectural paradigms of the infrastructure, such as microservices, in terms of micro frontends. So a lot of that complexity is entering into the web as well. So, who knows? [laughs]
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\n\nVICTORIA: So the customer or clients for Airbrake are developers who are doing web applications and need that kind of just the information they need [chuckles] to be able to make sure their changes to code is not affecting the production and that your product is trending towards observability practices that might be a little overmatch to what you will need.
\n\nGÖRAN: Yeah, that is what we're focusing on. But when you have a lot of customers and a lot of users, there's always this exotic, for us, exotic use cases. So I'm 100% sure there are really large customers that are using us in a more traditional DevOps fashion and not on web apps. I mean, we have support for most of the languages from Go to Python to .NET to Ruby. So there's nothing keeping Go developers from adopting something like Airbrake.
\n\nBut we do know that we're particularly strong within JavaScript and Ruby, and I think that speaks for the experience that it's easy to get going, et cetera, rather than something like Grafana or another more traditional observability tool that's a little bit out of reach maybe for the web or application developer.
\n\nVICTORIA: So when you're developing your product towards this specific segment of the market, what other differences do you notice between who you're targeting or who you're expecting your customer to be versus the wider range of people you could be marketing this towards?
\n\nGÖRAN: So I think everybody wants to go after the developer and the needs of the developer. This is, so to speak, trendy nowadays. And it's obvious because so much of the value and innovation happening is done [chuckles] in the editor. So it's natural that a lot of the focus is being placed there.
\n\nWe're focusing on where we're strong, and I think that's the best way to do it unless the market is small. And I see application development growing for the foreseeable future. I think we're seeing trends of things like no-code, or low-code, or whatever we choose to call it. The infrastructure is being abstracted more and more.
\n\nSo from that perspective, I think we have a good strategy for providing that simplicity that users come to expect when building modern apps today. We're pairing with other kinds of innovations on how you build code, basically from things like Vercel to Webflow to whatever it might be, right?
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And do you find that collaborative approach is more effective in business-to-business sales for this type of client?
\n\nGÖRAN: We're very focused on this just try it kind of approach, so that's how we do most of our direct communications with our users. So we want to let the app speak for itself. And we believe that once usage happens, then additional needs will happen or will arise that we can maybe serve in other ways.
\n\nSo we do have a free tier, free forever free tier, so you can use Airbrake pretty much forever but in a small scale. And then, like normal, when you start adding colleagues or lots of errors and lots of projects, then you need to upgrade to a paid plan. And we're also launching some new tiers here in the foreseeable future as well.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, tell me more about that.
\n\nGÖRAN: As teams mature...I don't know if that's the right word, but at some point, a lot of these teams may want a little bit more structure when they do monitoring. So I mentioned that we're pretty much self-service, completely self-service. But at some point, when you start using a product a lot, you start to integrate it into your core processes. So new things start to matter, things like who did that change? Who reconfigured that? Who logged in the last time? Has anybody seen that thing? But also to things like payment things. The different issues that can arise change, right?
\n\nVICTORIA: Mm-hmm.
\n\nGÖRAN: So we're launching a pro tier in the future that will cater to a little bit more of the needs of the team that has grown into maybe having a manager that asks questions about how things are set up, et cetera, but also, where you can control teams and people a little bit better, where you can also control your costs a little bit.
\n\nSo one of the features is on-demand billing. So the more errors you pay on your tier...you can produce up to a certain set of errors and performance events, and if you go above that, you pay an on-demand fee. And there are some protections built in for that if you're on the pro plan and things like that. So it's about catering to growing needs of a little bit larger teams but still the team that wants to move fast.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And I believe you said that you have plans to communicate and engage with the community, and that probably helps you understand some of those needs. And so what kind of plans do you have coming up that you'd like to share?
\n\nGÖRAN: So one of the things we know is with all the Airbrake use, we probably have a lot of fans out there, but we might not have been the best to actually tap into that and serve that community. So we want to really invest in understanding, getting to know that community, and serving that in the best way we can. So we will see exactly which form that will take.
\n\nBut it starts with the basics, opening up a Slack community that we can allow users to join and ask questions or maybe hopefully get value out of their peers without talking to us maybe. But we can also serve them in various ways with support, et cetera. So it will start pretty basic, but I think it's a pretty standard playbook nowadays.
\n\nBut for us, it's really about we're genuinely...we think our users are awesome, and we would love to be able to share their stories and connect them with other peers. So I think that's the driving motivation. And then, of course, we have some data that also shows that it is a good investment in itself, that the stories our customers tell are much better than the stories we tell. So yeah, we're excited about that for sure.
\n\nAnd it's connected to this bottoms up motion from where Airbrake grew from, that it grew as a solution that served the community really well. And we want to go back to those roots and be the best tool for that kind of user.
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, I love that. It sounds like a really great, full-circle journey for the product. And is there anything else you want to share about entrepreneurship and starting up products like this? What advice would you give to someone who had developed this type of product that served the community well and wanted to turn it into a product and a business?
\n\nGÖRAN: So I think the community building is relatively new for us, so I'm not sure the advice there is so valuable. But in terms of entrepreneurship, I think this is one of the more important decisions you make as an entrepreneur or founder is how will you grow demand for your product and how will you distribute the product? And how will you ultimately monetize the product? And there are so many different ways.
\n\nAnd depending on what your growth expectations are, you might be asked to go in one direction or another one. And my advice would be to really find product-market fit and that I think happens best by staying close to the end users, and then you can look at strategies for monetization, including direct sales or channel or, as Airbrake does, product-led freemium basically. But reach product-market fit first so you can decide with knowing how your product dynamics and adoption dynamics works, and let that influence the kind of strategy for the business strategy basically rather than the other way around.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. That makes sense. And then, if your product is geared towards developers, they're just like any other users. And you have to reach them and get their feedback and understand how the product fits into the market.
\n\nGÖRAN: Yeah, exactly.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. Great. All right. Do you have any questions for me at this time?
\n\nGÖRAN: Not really. It was a pleasure being on the podcast. I'm a fan so hope you can cover up my errors there.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nVICTORIA: I think that if you want to go back and remove, we totally can. But are there any other major takeaways you want people to walk away with about Airbrake or, in general, about entrepreneurship?
\n\nGÖRAN: That's about it, I think.
\n\nVICTORIA: All right. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm.
\n\nIf you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks for listening. See you next time.
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Sponsored By:
Guillaume Kendall is the Founder of Zedosh and Attention Exchange, which is working to build a safe place for advertisers, publishers, and consumers to all benefit from fair access to human attention.
\n\nChad talks with Guillaume about open banking, changing up who the beneficiaries of consumer attention and data are, and giving companies opportunities to advertise without interrupting consumers with ads.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Guillaume Kendall, the Founder of Zedosh and the Attention Exchange, which is working to build a safe place for advertisers, publishers, and consumers to all benefit from fair access to human attention. Guillaume, thank you for joining me.
\n\nGUILLAUME: Thank you so much for having me. It's a real privilege.
\n\nCHAD: If I'm not mistaken, you and I first met in person for lunch one time in London when I was visiting London in; I think it was...I went back and looked at my calendar. It was March 10th, 2020, if I'm not mistaken, either that or it was that Friday of that week.
\n\nGUILLAUME: It must have been one of the last weeks pre-pandemic.
\n\nCHAD: It was. I literally woke up on Saturday morning for my flight to come back to the U.S. to the headlines that all flights from Europe were being shut down. [laughs] And I almost dropped my phone until I realized, oh, that's the headline, but the real detail is I can get back. It's all the rest of Europe, not the UK, yet. That was the following week. I made it home, and then the world changed.
\n\nGUILLAUME: I sure did, didn't it? [laughs] It's funny, isn't it? Because the two-year period in between seems to have flown by. It feels like just yesterday. I remember I think, even what I ate.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] And at the time, you were working on a new application, and we were talking about that. But I want to fast forward a little bit to today. Tell me more about Attention Exchange, and then we're going to rewind a bit to how you've arrived.
\n\nGUILLAUME: So the Attention Exchange...by way of background, I come from the fintech space rather than adtech. And it really, ultimately, the Attention Exchange is a matching engine, using financial terms, that matches the right video content to the right consumer based on their spending data rather than their browsing data. So it's a matching engine.
\n\nAnd it looks at rules that ultimately we're able to derive, or actually, I better use the phrase, we can bridge the gap between attention and intention based on our audience's spending patterns. And the reason we can access those is because they give us explicit permission. We have something called open banking here in the UK. It's actually across most of Europe now. But it enables the consumer to own their data and share it outside the bank if they so wish to with other regulated third parties.
\n\nSo we're such a regulated third party, and they share that data with us, as I said, to be matched with video content from brands that are relevant to their spending instead of their browsing. What it ultimately means is we're very well-positioned in this apparent post-cookie world that seems to be heading our way eventually because we don't rely on any other tracking technology to spy on our audience. They voluntarily give it to us.
\n\nAnd I guess the kicker which is...people are probably asking themselves, why would they do that? That's because they get paid. So we put cash directly into the bank account or one of the bank accounts they've connected to our platform in exchange for their immutably valuable attention to that content.
\n\nCHAD: So correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like open banking has had a significant impact not only on the data sharing that you're describing but just on the banking ecosystem in general in the United Kingdom and now Europe.
\n\nGUILLAUME: So I think if you were to speak to the purveyors of open banking, it hasn't had as big an impact as they felt it would have had. I think we reached earlier this year only to fact-check this, but about 6 million people in the UK now utilize open banking in one form or another.
\n\nBut I think what was very interesting is that the ecosystem that sprung up around it was mostly around changing the user experience for the end consumer to have a better handle on their financial health, which is a really important topic. And the reason that is is that before, it wasn't really in the bank's interests to tell you if you're about to hit your overdraft or go over your overdraft because they'd charge you an extra 20 pounds for an unplanned loan, and then you'd have to pay it. Your balances (This is going back a little. I'm showing my age. ) was always two or three days out of date, which was weird.
\n\nSo open banking; the first thing that sprung up around it is we'll connect your bank accounts. We'll give you this holistic view of your mortgages, your credit, your debit, your net worth really across various assets. And we've moved progressively towards more of open finance rather than just open banking. You can connect via APIs a lot of your financial identity to these open banking providers.
\n\nBut having said that, no one has looked at it in the way that we have, which is actually this is an advertising play, and it could be potentially a real change maker in the way that consumers benefit from this $400 billion industry which is advertising rather than all the fintech stuff that's been happening around open banking.
\n\nBut yes, so it's not to be sniffed at, you know, several million people are using open banking. But most people, I don't even think, realize they're using open banking. They open the Revolut app, and it says, "Do you want to see your Monzo balance inside our app?" You say, "Well, yeah, okay, that means I don't have to open Monzo." And lo and behold, you share that data.
\n\nCHAD: Right. Yeah, that's a really good perspective. I think from my perspective; I was thinking it's sort of made it...there's a separation between the banking backends and the user experience, and I think that in part has given rise to these challenger banks and made it more possible for them to do that.
\n\nGUILLAUME: Yeah, that's a very fair point. I think, certainly, if nothing else, it certainly forced the incumbent players, those that have been around for a few hundred years, to really buckle up their ideas and think about how to react to this new threat. At first, they thought, geez, open banking is going to cause us all sorts of problems, but I think as it's gone full circle. You find that, actually, most people are looking for that user experience, and the banks have been forced to provide it within their existing ecosystem.
\n\nSo now, most banking apps provide really super UI or UX, meaning that you don't have to go use third-party tools to get such a lens. And in fact, the most interesting one I've seen of late, which I think is definitely worth a mention, is a company called Cogo; and Cogo used open banking to carbon score your spending and let you offset it. So if you spent four pounds at McDonald's, it would guess that that's X kilos of carbon and give you several options to offset it.
\n\nAnd actually, in the end, NatWest formed a partnership with them. This is a classic use case where actually, now the carbons offseter is available within that NatWest app, and you don't really have any idea it's Cogo. That's what you're seeing is ironically, those who have had success in innovative, exciting use cases have been pulled back into the ecosystem being offered because they still want the scale overnight. They had access to 8 million NatWest customers or whatever the number is.
\n\nSo, yes, I think; certainly, all banking apps have had to, even the banks themselves, have had to reorganize and rethink how they deliver technology to retail consumers who probably had had very little churn in the past because the options were very limited.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. So tell me about the genesis for this idea and realizing that you could use open banking to view people's financial information and to develop a profile that could be used to opt into advertising. Where's the genesis of that idea for you?
\n\nGUILLAUME: Sure. So actually, several threads came together very neatly in quite a tight timescale, the first of which is I spent a lot of money, relatively speaking, on a company called Patch Plants. And Patch Plants deliver plants to your house, [laughter] and they have quite a nice way to go about it. All the plants have got human names, and they come with little booklets about how to look after them.
\n\nAnd I felt very positive about the relationship I felt I had with Patch Plants until for the three, maybe four months following that purchase, there wasn't a website, or a social feed that I was on that didn't have Patch Plants all over it. And I really took note of my sentiment towards them [laughs] where I thought, go away, Patch Plants. I'm a customer. Why don't you know better? With the amount of data that we provide to the web, you just assume...and maybe this is where it all starts to click into place that actually, it's not that smart.
\n\nCHAD: The interesting thing is I think it is possible for companies to on target you once they decide to do it, but it seems like nobody does that. [laughs] And it's like, I've just bought a stove. Why am I seeing stoves all over the place? [laughs] I'm not going to buy another one.
\n\nGUILLAUME: Yeah, again, I think it comes from the underlying infrastructure, which is basically this concept of cookies, which we accept on every single website before we can do anything with it. And you've probably got a number of unchecked-out stoves across the web. And it's not locking on to the fact you've got one checked-out stove.
\n\nBut of course, we're connected to the bank account. And so when we see that transaction, we see the counterparties. We know for a fact that that person has made that transaction with that vendor, and therefore, you probably need to change the message. And that goes from daily purchases right through to the massive, heavy items we can see when people started a car leasing agreement.
\n\nWell, if you want to get them to think about considering your brand of vehicle in two or three years or three or four years, there's probably a journey that you should take that person on. But then again, once they've made the purchase, don't keep hassling them. So that's the first thing. If you saw my bank account...so I worked with open banking innovation [laughs]. I guess that's pretty important.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nGUILLAUME: So I was acutely aware of how the data could be shared and analyzed, so that's the first point. And then, pretty much at the same time, Netflix brought out this documentary, The Social Dilemma, really putting across that these social media applications were basically designed, maybe it's not a surprise, but pretty much as gambling apps. They're exceptionally addictive. And the reason they're addictive is because the longer you spend on them, the more advertising they can slide into; now, I think one in every four posts.
\n\nAnd now that we've moved on to short-form video content, there's infinite scroll. We're all on these apps for hours a day. But the only way they generate revenues is through advertising, and the only way they get advertising is by you spending more time. And it sort of didn't sit too well with me, especially after we had the Euro Championship in football or soccer here. And there was a ton of racist abuse that went out to players across social media. Lots of brands and advertisers started pulling away from it for a very short period of time to express their protest.
\n\nBut I realized then that, actually, there is no alternative. If you want to attract attention, you have to fund social media or Google, and that's kind of it. Those are your options as a brand or an advertiser. And the former being social media is really not a very healthy place to spend time. Sure, some good comes out of it. But I would argue that the bad that comes out of it far outweighs any of the good that's come from social media, certainly in the last five years or so, I believe. It's at the center of some major divisions in our communities. But it's all funded through advertising revenue.
\n\nSo that was the second point is that there really is no alternative. And why should Mark Zuckerberg be the beneficiary of my attention, my data, my value whilst putting absolutely no effort in changing or being an arbiter of the content? They're keeping their hands up saying, hey, we're not a publisher. If that content is there, it's there. And it becomes a very complicated argument very quickly around free speech and all of this sort of stuff. But ultimately, there's a ton of really nasty stuff.
\n\nAnd then we had a family friend, specifically, who really put herself in a lot of danger, a young girl. And that was a very real impact on human life close to us that was all driven from what she was able to access with alarming ease via Instagram. So those sorts of threads all came together. And then the more sort of...it's one of those things, right? Once you see a yellow car, you're looking out for a yellow car. You keep seeing them. But I don't think I was proactively looking out for it too much.
\n\nBut it seemed that every day almost, there was a new-new story in the front pages of the papers where Facebook was in some sort of trouble, and that obviously materialized last year with the Facebook leaks. And everything we've been just discussing now they've known about. They know about it. They're choosing not to make a difference.
\n\nSo we had a really powerful motivation to try and bring about a different mechanism for this $400 billion industry to operate. And rather than exploit our data, exploit our mental well-being, exploit our communities and everything else in order to drive advertising revenue, maybe the advertiser could have a more direct relationship, a fair and more transparent relationship with the consumer with whom they want a dialogue.
\n\nAnd I think it's been the biggest learning curve for us is that brands and advertisers feel weird about paying consumers to pay attention. But we're saying we think it is weirder that you pay Google and Facebook to track these people all over the web and interrupt them everywhere they don't want to be spoken to. Why not just pay them to have a fair, transparent dialogue? I know you have money. I know you spend it with my competitors who are in my market. I want your attention, and this is what I have to tell you. There we go. So that was the sort of the kernel, the genesis.
\n\nCHAD: I can totally see why advertisers are...scared is not the right word. Just, you know, it's just they've never had a relationship where they're paying the consumer directly for any kind of advertising that they do [chuckles] whether it be TV historically. There's always an intermediary. And the idea of paying people directly is not only different, but in some ways, I can imagine people view it as crude. Like, it's one thing if it's going through an intermediary and you're paying them, and advertising is being run, but it's another to just pay someone to pay attention to you.
\n\nGUILLAUME: Yeah, but I think this is the point about the open banking. I completely agree with you; if you're paying somebody based on their cookies or any of the other data, the first-party data or third-party data, that's abstracted several layers from that pair of eyeballs that you know has a tendency to buy X on Y time horizon. That's never been possible before.
\n\nAnd so through your television, it's scale. You're paying the broadcaster because they've got 3 million people watching Coronation Street on, I don't know, whatever. But it's always based on these tiny, tiny fractions of engagement, and that's always been the way it is. So you need the intermediary for scale.
\n\nBut I think what I'm hoping, what I've literally bet my house on [laughter], that's one thing that's going to change. I sold my house since we started to do this. All those marketplaces are completely saturated, and they are not getting less busy; they're getting more busy. And so okay, TikToks appeared, but the medium through which video content is provided to the consumer, you're lucky to get a quarter of a second or half a second with that person.
\n\nAnd so you're right, but what is now the alternative to actually getting a minute, a minute and a half, two minutes with somebody where they're not skipping; they're not going past? You know they're a real person. You know they're human. All of our consumers have to have a bank account. They have to have transactions, and they have to have an income in order to be valuable and receive any adverts into their feed. So it's just never been possible before.
\n\nThe scale play, the intermediary, was always sort of, I think, accepted, and it still is today. There's going to be a bunch of fraud. I think there's like 15 cents in every dollar spent online digitally for advertising is lost. I think it's a $100 billion problem by next year. So I guess the point I'm making is the intermediaries historically and to today have existed because you need to reach millions of eyeballs in order to get a very low interaction rate.
\n\nWith our model, we're able to target thousands of people and achieve a 19.6% average click-through rate even after a minute and a half worth of content because they're engaged and you're not interrupting them. So we think it's a relatively elegant model for what is a saturated, noisy world where eventually also the very mechanism by which they do track and target you is going to be replaced at some stage by Google and Chrome.
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\n\nCHAD: You have this idea. It's really challenging the status quo. You're working in open banking innovation at the time. What did you start to do then, to try to bring your idea to life?
\n\nGUILLAUME: So the first thing was actually my background is in sales and business development but within the fintech and open banking space. So I've worked with a lot of very smart people. And the first thing I really needed to do was quickly validate whether or not this is something. So a guy that we brought on...he's not so much a co-founder, but the other director of the business is a guy called Matt McBride, who's this global head of UX at a company I used to work for.
\n\nAnd that was really the first thing is to try and rapidly prototype what the experience would look like and ultimately go out to our target audience, which was Gen Z here in the UK, and ask them whether or not this is the sort of thing they'd engage with. And the responses were actually really very positive. "Hang on; you're going to pay me to watch ads that are relevant to me? No-brainer, please do."
\n\nAnd then, we were able to raise 100 grand, 150 grand, which enabled us to take that prototype and build it into something that, after a few obstacles with Apple in the App Store, we were able to get live. So that was really the first thing, I guess is, figuring out the way and the people that I needed to help me out to take this idea into something tangible and then tested it before I went much further with it.
\n\nI was very fortunate, or I am very fortunate, that my partner is a corporate lawyer; my wife, sorry, now; we've been married since we started. [laughs] And so, actually, the mechanism through which we were able to raise the really earliest funds meant that we didn't have to give very much of the business away at such an early stage, which I think was a key learning point that I certainly share with other founders is you don't have to go give away 25% of your business for a little bit of money just to get it off PowerPoint. There are other ways.
\n\nCHAD: So I think I remember what I told you when we met and talked. Do you remember what it was?
\n\nGUILLAUME: You shared lots of very valuable insights with me.
\n\nCHAD: My memory is that at the time, it was only advertisements in the app. And I think I said, "I get that people are going to want to be paid to look at these things."
\n\nGUILLAUME: Oh yes, right.
\n\nCHAD: "But if there's nothing else here, it's going to be really hard to bring people back to do that." And we had seen that in another client of ours that was paying people to browse. And what they'd do is they do it for a while, and they'd hit whatever monthly cap of return that they could get, an amount that they thought made sense. And then, they would switch back to their other browser because it was a better browsing experience. So they were only using it because they were getting paid. And as soon as that incentive went away, they would stop using it.
\n\nGUILLAUME: Yeah, so I remember that. And you were right. And I guess there are a few things that came about from that, so the first thing is that Apple agreed. So we couldn't get the app onto the App Store if it was just a feed of adverts that remunerated the user to watch them, incentivized the user. So we put quite a lot of additional features, I guess more traditional fintech features, open banking features within the application in order to give the user insights into their spending, week-on-week analysis, and categorization of spend.
\n\nAnd we also built this what we call the level up section where every week, you get refreshed pieces of content around, you know, very Gen Z-focused again, but what's the difference between a credit card and a loan? Is buy now, pay later a good idea? What's open banking? So we generate all this content, which they don't get paid to consume but is there, and they do.
\n\nBut more importantly, I think what we realized is that actually what we've got...this is the difference, I guess, between the Attention Exchange and Zedosh being the app; it's the plumbing and the matching that is the real value here. It is the models we're building that understand people's behavior and propensity or intent to buy something based on the data they're sharing with us.
\n\nAnd so, actually, what we've built is a solution where you should be able to log in to any publisher that has the additional content, and experience, and value that you're speaking about there, places you ordinarily already browse and frequent. But if you want to, there's a separate tab where there are ads waiting for you that remunerate you, but you go into that tab. So we're trying to remove the interruption, you know, the pop-up even having to accept cookies from your user experience with the publisher moving into a separate, dedicated tab.
\n\nAnd the reason the consumer is still going to go click on that tab is because they know that there's some content that's relevant and pays them, but they're still able to enjoy all the other benefits that the publisher provides. So it's kind of weirdly trying to flip this premium subscription model where you pay not to have ads. Actually, you're the first recipient of the ad income, and you share that with the publisher.
\n\nCHAD: I think this is really cool, and yet I think it also rubs up against or hits up against something that is just so different than the status quo. The idea that companies would not interrupt you with advertising is probably so foreign [laughs] to people that I imagine you get reluctance to that.
\n\nGUILLAUME: The last two years have been a steeper learning curve for us and all the advertisers and agencies, and players we've been speaking to. But what I'm grateful for is the fact that what we term the ad-pocalypse is coming. And so I was just at an event called MAD//Fest last week, which is basically all the advertising industry got together in London, the UK advertising industry. And every single panel discussion talk was about the post-cookie era.
\n\nAnd all that most people are speaking about is how do we gather more data in other ways from the consumer in order to keep doing more of the same? And all of a sudden, when we're talking about the fact that our users give us their banking transactions, we see how much they earn and where they spend it and, therefore, can also attribute without the use of cookies, which is the holy grail of advertising. We started generating an awful lot of interest from really big players.
\n\nSo I think you're right; the status quo is having the rug pulled from underneath them, right? Look at Meta's share price this year. I haven't checked it this week, but last time I checked, it was down 52%. And that's because iOS app tracking transparency is stopping the ability to track and monitor and, increasingly, ultimately, the ability for the user to remain more private. And they all are doing it. Why would they want to be less private in order to benefit Meta? In our platform, they're opting into their most intimate data being shared because they stand to be rewarded fairly for it.
\n\nSo I completely agree; up to this point, "What? No way." This is how it works. And certainly, the thing that will probably remain true is to do more with less isn't of interest because agencies get paid a percentage of the budget. They don't want to do [laughs] the same with less budget. But my point remains that with iOS app tracking transparency...apparently, Android is going the same way, and Chrome is replacing third-party cookies. The status quo simply cannot continue. Something has to change.
\n\nAnd so I think with this identity solution often is what we're building. The consumer stands a chance of being the first in line to receive a reward for their attention. And I'm very pleased actually we've got some competition as well since we last spoke, which is new. But this concept of rewarding consumers for attention, I think, will just...how else are you going to get their time? They're not listening to you on TikTok. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: I'm happy to hear that you're viewing competition as a positive thing. And I agree competition raises awareness that this is a thing and a potential, and most people will shop around or research it further. And that's a chance for them to discover you.
\n\nGUILLAUME: I hope so. This company has done a big advertising campaign all over. It's on TV, radio, and the underground in London. And the amount of people who've reached out to me... "Is this company doing what you're doing?" And ultimately, they're paying users in a way for their attention to advertising. But they don't use open banking, and they don't have the data that we have.
\n\nCHAD: That's an important distinction. One of the things that I've seen our clients worry about...and I saw it happen to one. Even though lots of people worry about it, I've only ever seen it happen one time, but it's still a risk, and that is when competitors come along. And unbeknownst to you, they dramatically over raise and therefore are just able to flood the market, saturate the attention, and build way bigger and faster at a loss than you are willing to do.
\n\nGUILLAUME: Yeah, or able to do. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Or able to do, right? Because they've raised 500 million [chuckles] or something like that. That's what happened with our client, who was in the group buying space at the same time as Groupon and LivingSocial. And so that's the only time I've ever seen it happen, but it's something that people are worried about. How are you...is that something on your mind?
\n\nGUILLAUME: It's interesting. So they've raised 15 million Series A, and they've been around since 2012. So they've been around a long time. And it almost feels like they... [laughs] I'm not saying they did, but it almost feels like they landed on my LinkedIn. And we're very anti-social media. The message is really strong on anti-social media. But ultimately, they built an app.
\n\nAnd so I think we've already matured past the point that in terms of our scaling and our ability to integrate with any platform, our strategy already goes beyond competing on a direct basis of an app that serves ads. In fact, if anything, at some stage, I'm hoping that they could plug into our engine and our pipes and add an extra layer of data and personalization to the adverts that they serve.
\n\nSo ultimately, when they came, and it was during the Champions League final that they had their first big launch because one of the backers is a football player, my phone just went berserk. Because it was like, wait, what? And at first, I was a bit worried but ultimately, no. I only really, really see it as a positive at this stage.
\n\nBut obviously, yes, they can advertise. They can speak to brands. They've got much more market presence. Everywhere you go on the underground, there are those posters. But we have a very clear, distinct proposition that is quite different. As I said, really, this pulling apart what Zedosh is and what the Attention Exchange is; the Attention Exchange is really potentially the plumbing, the rails for this post-cookie advertising model.
\n\nCHAD: So that being said, you are doing some fundraising now. That's right?
\n\nGUILLAUME: Yes. In fact, I don't think I've stopped fundraising [laughter] since this started. And certainly, that wasn't something I was anticipating despite the fact that...I mentioned I'm married to a corporate lawyer. She told me, "Your role as a CEO, as a founder, you're just going to be fundraising." I thought, yeah, well, I'll get some money in, and then we can focus on doing the stuff. But every time money comes in, most often you sort of have already spent it. It's allocated; it's gone. You need to look for the next lot.
\n\nBut yes, we are fundraising. Currently, we're still focused majoritively on angels. We're looking to prove our scalability model with this existing raise, at which point I think we’ll be ready and looking for institutional funds. But we use something called EIS funding which is UK-specific but is so, so rewarding for UK taxpayers. Basically, they get 30% back off the tax amount of their tax return, which is a great incentive, and all the gains from the equity is free of capital gains tax as well.
\n\nSo it almost becomes a no-brainer for people who have money that they're looking to invest in early-stage risky businesses. They're already really risking. The capital risk is under 50% of what they put in because there's also an insurance element; if the company goes bust that you've invested, there's something called loss relief.
\n\nCHAD: So it's really attractive to angel-level investors.
\n\nGUILLAUME: Correct. So you have to be a UK taxpayer as an individual to benefit from this specific relief. Of course, I mean, we have had some non-UK people still invest through the same sort of advanced subscription agreement. But yes, it's very attractive for UK taxpayers.
\n\nCHAD: And do you think...[laughs] you've already answered this question. But I guess when do you think you'll stop fundraising?
\n\nGUILLAUME: We're looking to change the way the internet works. [laughter]
\n\nCHAD: Right.
\n\nGUILLAUME: And so if we're mildly successful even redistributing the 100 billion of ad fraud which is currently being lost out there, we're entering a very cash-rich market looking for solutions at this moment in time. So if we're to raise some cash that enables us to put in place the plumbing and the pipes that we're looking to connect to, then actually, we should be relatively profitable relatively quickly, at which point, I guess we'd no longer need to fundraise. But at which point we'd probably say, "Well, actually, the U.S. is now ready for this. Let's go."
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nGUILLAUME: I don't think we're particularly a cash-thirsty business. It's all built on AWS.
\n\nCHAD: And you're right. That's why I asked the question because if your model is working, if you're having the impact you want, there's a lot of money in advertising. And so you should get to the point where you're able to do that profitably.
\n\nGUILLAUME: Absolutely.
\n\nCHAD: And start being as big as Google, right? [laughs]
\n\nGUILLAUME: Yeah. I read a book called Life After Google. I don't know if I shared that with you the last time we met. But it's weird. It was written five or six years ago, but it's coming true. I think this whole premise of Web3, and this decentralization of data, and the ownership of data, the profiting of data at the individual level, is coming to the fore. And I can think of no better way to bridge your value and identity online than having it connected to your real-world assets, income, and spending behavior.
\n\nCHAD: I was wondering whether you are going to mention Web3. [laughs]
\n\nGUILLAUME: Huh.
\n\nCHAD: Because this decentralization of the advertising money directly to users is a very Web3 idea.
\n\nGUILLAUME: I agree.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] So how much do you talk about Web3 in your pitch or when you're talking about it? It hasn't come up until now in this conversation, so maybe not so much.
\n\nGUILLAUME: It's a double-edged sword, I feel, because I think most people think Web3. They think crypto.
\n\nCHAD: Yes.
\n\nGUILLAUME: And we're paying cash in fiat, and although there's every possibility we could have a token-based solution, we're not looking at that because the core immutable value of your attention is linked in your spending behavior on earth and online, but through real transactions with real merchants. 99.999% of transactions, I imagine, aren't crypto yet and don't live on a blockchain, so until that point, I think we steer clear of it.
\n\nWhether we could have raised more money more quickly if we [laughs] had mentioned it more, I don't know. But for me, there are quite a few steps to go in our journey as I see it having matured from the app to the plumbing, the plumbing now going to more publishers, more publishers meaning more audience, more audience meaning more attention, more advertising. At which point, as I said, the U.S. will probably be there with open banking. There are a lot of things in Web 2.0 that could be resolved. And yeah, if we make it that far, I think we'll be in an awesome position to have an identity solution for Web3 or Web5. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Well, I wish you all the best in that journey. And I really appreciate you stopping by and sharing with us.
\n\nGUILLAUME: My pleasure. It's been real great and nice to hear from you again. And I hope our paths cross in the real world soon enough.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. If folks want to get in touch or learn more or get in touch with you, where are all the different places that they can do that?
\n\nGUILLAUME: We have two websites, so zedosh.com is the consumer app, attentionexchange.co.uk is our other website. Otherwise, feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. And on Twitter, I'm @G_Zedosh. I'm not massive on Twitter. There are a lot of bots on that.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] I guess I'm not that surprised.
\n\nSo you can subscribe to the show, find links to everything that was just mentioned along with notes and a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm.
\n\nIf you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel. I'm also not very active these days.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks so much for listening, and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Guillaume Kendall.
Sponsored By:
Alice Loy is a Founding Partner at DaVinci Ventures and the Co-Founder and CEO of Creative Startups, the leading global startup accelerator and company builder for design, food, immersive, and creative companies.
\n\nVictoria and Chad talk with Alice about what she means by creative companies, how much judgment she must pass as an investor with a love for the "weird and wonderful," and some of the challenges faced in bringing diversity to the rest of the accelerator world.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Alice Loy, Founding Partner at DaVinci Ventures and the Co-Founder and CEO of Creative Startups, the leading global startup accelerator and company builder for design, food, immersive, and creative companies.
\n\nCHAD: Alice, thank you so much for joining us.
\n\nALICE: Thanks for having me.
\n\nCHAD: Can you tell us a little bit more about Creative Startups in general but also what you mean by creative companies specifically? Like, isn't every company creative? [laughs]
\n\nALICE: Yeah, it's so funny. That's often the first question. And sometimes people I can feel their sense of indignation in thinking maybe I think they're not creative.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nALICE: First of all, the creative industries are pretty well defined globally by the World Bank and entities like that. I'll come back to that. Yes, all human beings are creative. I like to joke that that's what got us out of caves in the first place. But more importantly, all entrepreneurs are very creative regardless of what sector you're operating in.
\n\nSo when we're talking about creative, we're just referencing the set of industries that are measured as the quote, "creative industries." They include film, our museums, design certainly is a core element of that. Increasingly, we're seeing more and more people move toward the creative industries as mechanized labor takes over things like building cars or even running data analysis.
\n\nCHAD: Has getting support and funding and that kind of thing traditionally been easy in the creative space or hard?
\n\nALICE: No. I know you know the answer to that question because you're a designer. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: I usually don't ask questions that I don't know the answers to, so... [laughs]
\n\nALICE: But it's a great question because actually what it uncovers, you guys, is that it has changed dramatically for people who I call creatives or creators in the last two or three years. It's a little tough to measure with the pandemic, but we know at least $2 billion have gone into platforms that support creators, businesses led by creators. The creative industry has really turned a corner.
\n\nSo when we started this work 15-16 years ago, I co-founded the organization with a gentleman named Tom, who is now in his 80s. But he had come out of what's called the cultural economy, which was the precursor to the creative economy. And, of course, now we're all living in the creator economy. So like every other industry, it evolves. And one turn in this evolution is that creatives are now understood as economic drivers, not just people who add nice flourishes to things at the end.
\n\nWhen you're building new products, people think about engineers, but it's really a creative process. And people increasingly bring in creatives from the outset to think about how the design process can be more humanized, can be more effective to solve people's problems so that your products really delight customers instead of just get the job done.
\n\nCHAD: Is there something you can point to that triggered or pushed along that turning point?
\n\nALICE: Well, not to be overly philosophical, but I would say the general sense in the U.S. and increasingly in other countries where we work is that human beings don't want to be cogs in a wheel. They don't want to just be bit parts in a system. When you talk to Gen Zers, they understand that they are complete human beings. And somehow, I think older generations bought into the idea that you have the same job for 40 years. You go to work at 8:00; you come home at 5:00. You repeat the next day.
\n\nI think the sense in the economy is that people want to be fulfilled. If they're going to give that much time to a job, they want it to be meaningful and valuable. And they want it to solve some of the big problems. Frankly, big tech is not approaching the world in that way these days. And so I think younger people are looking for values-aligned opportunities.
\n\nAnd the creative economy is a space where values tend to align with really reaching the full potential of each human being instead of just extracting their physical and occasionally mental labor toward building a capitalist system. And so I think that zeitgeist has helped open the door.
\n\nI also then think when you look at the kinds of technologies that are being utilized, they're still fundamentally about communicating ideas, and art, and inspiration. That's what Facebook is. That's what TikTok is. That's what even news channels are. And as more people come into the world of saying, "Oh, I can share my ideas, my art, my jokes, my music, my whatever," they see themselves as creatives, and they go, "I wonder how I could get paid for that?" I mean, there are a multitude of factors weaving together to shift.
\n\nI also think, quite frankly, the SaaS investment area has become so saturated. I mean, if you walk down the street in San Francisco, if you don't bump into three venture capitalists who are SaaS investors, it's like, what are you doing? And so I think other types of investors with a different background maybe are saying, hmm, what about this area over here? How could we make money? So that would be another thread I would say is helping drive.
\n\nCHAD: It strikes me that what you've shared sort of creates a self-fulfilling cycle too.
\n\nALICE: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: Because once creatives have examples of other creatives that have done this, it becomes an aspirational thing that they understand that they, too, could do themselves.
\n\nALICE: Yeah, 100%. So our goal when we started the startup accelerator...we launched the first accelerator for creative founders in 2013 in the world. And we said to ourselves, if we get one company that becomes the poster child for this creative movement and demonstrating that you can be, as we like to say, weird and wonderful and build a company, then we will unleash a flood of people who now see themselves in that light.
\n\nWe were very fortunate in that we got that one poster child, and that has really helped us paint a picture that's clear for a lot of people where they see themselves as entrepreneurs, even though they're a tattoo artist or they're a hard rock Navajo metal band from the reservation or whatever their background is. Now they look and go, "Oh yeah, I could do that," and they certainly could. Being an entrepreneur is really hard but not intellectually challenging; it's more heart-challenging.
\n\nCHAD: Oh, that's really interesting, more heart challenging.
\n\nALICE: Yeah. I mean, you're an entrepreneur. You guys have built a business, so you know that being an entrepreneur is more about being able to just sort of stay calm in the waves than it is about building the world's best boat and being able to steer toward that destination no matter how the winds blow.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I've often referred to it almost as grit, like the ability to, no matter what happened yesterday, get up and do it again.
\n\nALICE: Get up, yeah. And unfortunately, I think there's a myth, maybe at least in the U.S., that what drives most people to get up and go, again, is money. And I don't think that's true at all. I think what drives people to get up and go again is their love of customers or end users. And their feeling they're just irrefutable despite there being no evidence feeling that this is going to work. This is going to make a difference in people's lives. And that's why the sort of slog.
\n\nAnd there are days when...one of the things we always start a Creative Startup's program with is find your tribe. Cling to the people who believe in you. Ignore the naysayers. The naysayers are ten to one. Blow them off and cling to the people who say, "Wow, dude, that sounds cool. I bet you could do that." Yes, do another coffee meeting with that person. [laughs]
\n\nBecause sometimes you just need people who can say, "You got this. You got this. Just do another day, man." What do you guys do? Let me ask, what do you guys do when things get really rocky for you? How do you guys collect that internal okay, I'm going to get back in the saddle.
\n\nCHAD: I've talked about this with people before, and I actually think that this is going to be a non-answer, but I'll do my best. I actually don't know exactly what does this for me. But I do know a side effect is I also don't celebrate the wins as much as other people wish that I did. And I think it's because I just move on very quickly from things. I don't dwell on the downs as much. I also don't dwell on the highs as much. And so I don't know if it's just something about me that does it or I just trained myself to do that. But it does have some downsides to it.
\n\nALICE: That was a real answer. That wasn't a non-answer at all.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nALICE: Victoria, what about you?
\n\nVICTORIA: I think to add on to what Chad said is kind of that thoughtbot mentality of viewing things as an experiment. And so if you come in with that mentality, like, this is the experiment. We'll see if it works or it doesn't. And if it doesn't work, there are some lessons to be learned, and we can grow from that and do better next time. And if it does work, great; [chuckles] this is cool.
\n\nAnd I actually like to celebrate the wins a lot. I like to really dwell in those moments and feel like we did something right. We should remember this and learn from that as well and then try to repeat it, right?
\n\nALICE: Yeah. Oh, I love that.
\n\nCHAD: You mentioned that when you were first starting Creative Startups, you hoped to get one win, and you did. Which one was it?
\n\nALICE: To be clear, as a mom, we don't have favorite children, okay? [laughter] And there are different companies that have had enormous impact in different ways, so let me tick some off. Let me name first Etkie. It's a design company built by a woman named Sydney, who grew up in rural New Mexico with a passion for working with indigenous communities.
\n\nHer design company makes spectacular handmade bracelets, average price point around 250 bucks. And she sells in about 100 different high-end galleries around the world. She creates 40 jobs for Navajo women on the reservation at twice the annual pay that they would receive if they worked any other job there. Pretty astounding, pretty astounding.
\n\nThose women have gone on to reinvest their money in things like rebuilding the school, putting in wells for family. The Navajo Nation lacks drinking water all over the place. So really fundamentally shifting the economic and social trajectory of that community.
\n\nShe designs every single bracelet with a woman, and you'll see they're named after the women. And they just do a recollection process where the woman recalls something from her childhood, and they weave a story around that. And then, they create the bracelet design. They're beautiful, Etkie, E-T-K-I-E.
\n\nThe next one I would say that has really inspired me is founded by another woman who does...now she's doing more XR AR, But they started as a virtual reality company doing films for medical providers who needed to better understand the disease experience of their patients in order to come up with not just solutions to their lived experience but actual medical procedures, and technologies, and pharmaceuticals that could shape the outcomes of that patient.
\n\nSo that company is called Embodied Labs, founded by a woman named Carrie and her team out of LA. And they're now selling to hospital systems across California and increasingly in the Midwest, et cetera, changing thousands of lives.
\n\nAnd then the one that most people do point to us and say, "Hey, good job," is a company called Meow Wolf. We were their first investor back in 2014. They've gone on to raise upwards of $250 million. They're kind of a competitor now to Disney. So they're in the immersive art and experience realm. They had a million visitors in their Denver spot. So far this year, they've had about a million visitors in their Las Vegas spot.
\n\nThey were founded here in Santa Fe, our hometown. And we didn't even know they existed. They didn't know we existed. [chuckles] The night before our application was to close, somebody wandered into a meeting they were having where they were talking about dissolving the art collective. And somebody said, "Oh before you guys make a decision, you should check out this thing." [laughs]
\n\nSo in some ways, it was angels on our shoulders in that it's a homegrown company, and Santa Fe is a small city. We needed a shift here around our creative economy. And they needed somebody to believe in them. They had gone to every business support organization they could find and had been told, "Well, you're probably trying to start an arts nonprofit." And they thought, "That's not really our vision. That's not...we want to build a company. We think art is something people will pay for if it's put forward in a way that blows your mind," and Meow certainly blows your mind.
\n\nCHAD: That's really interesting. I mean, I totally get why people would say that just because...but that's like saying...when Disney was getting started [chuckles] people saying "It sounds like you're trying to create an arts nonprofit."
\n\nALICE: Yes. And I'm guessing a lot of people did. The future happens when we're all looking backwards, and very few people are looking forwards. And so I think it's important for entrepreneurs to keep in mind you're probably just statistically talking to somebody who's looking backwards because human beings tend to do that more than they look forward.
\n\nAnd so better to find people early on who say, "You know, I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about because you're the expert in your startup, and I'm not. But let me ask you this, how could I be helpful?" That's the right question. If they give you an answer and they don't even know what you're talking about, you probably don't need their help.
\n\nAnd that's hard for entrepreneurs because there are so many doubters out there that you have to kind of keep plucking through to find the one or two people who say, "That's really interesting. That seems like it might work. How could I help?" Did you guys have somebody at thoughtbot early on who you can remember sort of said, "Huh, that's interesting. How could I help?"
\n\nCHAD: I think it was our early clients who most did that.
\n\nALICE: Oooh, yeah.
\n\nCHAD: Because we're a consulting company, because we're an agency, finding clients who believed in us and wanted to work with us in part because they liked us was an important aspect to that. If it wasn't for those early clients, no amount of passion would have kept us going because we needed to support ourselves.
\n\nALICE: What a great insight, honestly. I think the sort of rhetoric around passion is really abused. Because there's now this sense that, well, if you have passion, you can build a business, and that's just not true. That's not true. I hate to say it, and people are always stunned when I say it because they think that I lead Creative Startups; I must be the core passion champion.
\n\nBut here's what I would say is if you have a passion for solving your client or your customers' problems, then you might have a business. [laughs] There's a huge difference there. There's a difference between well; this is what I want to make. This is what I love doing. That is not necessarily going to answer the question is anybody paying you to do that?
\n\nAnd I like to encourage people to think about if you have passion for doing something, you probably have a hobby. If you do stuff that people want to pay you to do, you might have a business. And crossing that bridge is an analytical and a heart-wrenching process. Because usually, what you end up with is I mostly get to do what I love to do. But I do a lot of stuff I don't want to do because that's what building a business is, just like being a parent or any other really amazing, wonderful thing in life.
\n\nRunning a business is not just about doing what you love doing all day; it's mostly about doing what people want to pay you to do. And if you're doing what people want to pay you to do and you love it, that is beautiful. That is a blessed position to be in. It's rare. And you have to ask yourself very real questions and be brutally honest with yourself, or you could waste your retirement savings. You could spend a year or two away from your family before you figure that out, not to be depressing. [laughs]
\n\nBut we always say from our programs we look...not from our more advanced accelerator programs, but we also provide programs that are more; how do you figure out this idea? You have this idea, or you have what we call lucky revenue. A lot of creatives get lucky revenue where their friend sees them doing something, and they go, "Man, would you do one for me?" And then somebody else wants one, and now they have lucky revenue. And they're ready to say, "I think this might be a business."
\n\nAnd those people we say you have three outcomes from our programs. One, you realize this is not a business. It's just not going to make any money. The business model does not pan out. Two, this might be a business if I do it differently, and now I need to figure out if I want to do it differently. And three is, yeah, I'm on track. Now I got to go grow it. And all three are valid outcomes.
\n\nBecause we've worked with people who came to us late, took out a loan. And we said, "Well, what's your plan for paying it back?" "Well, we don't know." That's bad. That's really dangerous. That can ruin families' economic futures. And so we're much happier to catch people before that happens so they can ask those critical questions about is this really a market opportunity? Is this a business I want to build? Is this, therefore, a business opportunity for me? And those questions are deceptively simple.
\n\nIn our more advanced programs, we focus on, okay, you've got revenue, you've got traction. You're ready to start maybe thinking about what's the next three years? Where are your cash flow gaps? Where's your, as people like to call it, the valley of death that you have to cross as you grow? What kind of financing can you go raise to help cross that valley? How do you get to 10 million in revenue, 50 million in revenue? People are at different stages of growing a business.
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\n\nCHAD: How much judgment do you pass as an investor as people who are reading applications about who gets into the accelerator program? How much judgment do you pass, and how do you strike that balance?
\n\nALICE: That's kind of a peek behind the curtain; how do people really pick companies? Different people do it differently. For us, we really hue toward weird and wonderful. We actually prefer...and this goes against what people say you should do, [laughs] but we kind of go against the grain in general. And it's worked out.
\n\nWe prefer to look at things that we don't totally understand partly because often creatives don't speak business speak. So I'm pretty turned off by (I'm going to make something up.) the Harvard Business School grad who has a music-sharing platform and doesn't play music. I'm like, how would you know about a music-sharing platform?
\n\nWhereas a musician who comes with their garage band and they happen to have a computer science degree from the college down the road and they've invented this thing and all of a sudden, it's taking off, and they're not even sure why. I'm listening, and I'm like, oh, that's really interesting.
\n\nA lot of creatives tend to pick up on opportunities in the market, and they don't frame it so much as a business opportunity because that's just not the language that they've learned to speak yet. But they have an insight into a particular sector or a need that people who are not really in that space...
\n\nIt feels like a lot of the startup world has been overtaken by people who want to be startup founders but don't necessarily have their hands dirty in a particular sector where they know how to really solve a problem that either a lot of people have, or that very few people have but that a lot of people have in the future if you build the market. And that's where you make a lot of money is if you build a market. So we look for things like that.
\n\nSo what does that mean when we're reading applications? We don't ask for financial statements. We ask, how much money did you make last year, and where do you think most of that money came from? We're more interested in are they interested in analyzing their business so they understand where growth could come from next? Instead of, what is your financial statements?
\n\nMost of the entrepreneurs who come through our programs don't have financial statements. They might not even have a cash flow projection, which is really exciting. We have entrepreneurs who come to us who...I'll tell you a story. We had an entrepreneur come to us who ran underground music clubs in old houses in Denver. And he was like, "I think this is a business, but I don't know anything about business. I just started hosting these a few years ago."
\n\nAnd I said, "Well, how many people...like, if you took an average year..." and I said, "You don't charge anything?" And he said, "No, people just hear about it." And I'm thinking, okay, so you get a couple thousand. "How many people in an average year come to your basement music club thing?" "50,000." [laughs] Yeah, I think you might have a business.
\n\nI mean, those are the kinds of things that you think, wow, why did that take off? What is going on there? That's really interesting. Let's talk. And he had a mohawk. He played in a metal band. Business was not his deal. And so that wasn't the lens he was applying.
\n\nI think a lot of designers and a lot of people who invent products and solutions start with; I'm doing this for myself, wouldn't this be rad? Without even knowing that, they touched a nerve in the market that now is kind of catching on fire. Those are really exciting entrepreneurs for us to work with.
\n\nThey do have to turn a corner on I'm building a business now. I'm not just doing something that's cool with my friends. And that can be a difficult place because it means you have to cross a bridge into the world of finance, and you're probably going to have to hire product managers. And now you go hire that Harvard Business School grad and they work for you.
\n\nAnd a lot of people frankly don't want to turn that corner. And I get it because when you come back to that topic of, is this values-aligned? A lot of that world is not yet totally values-aligned. That's shifting, more impact investors, more investors who want to see more different types of people starting companies, but we're not there yet.
\n\nAnd so there's this cultural clash. When creatives walk toward that space, they go, ew, I've been fighting against the man my whole life. And now you want me to get in the car and go on a long road trip with them? No thanks. [laughs] And I'm sitting there with the Doritos going, yeah, man, but I got all the good munchies, let's go. It often does work out. But I also understand why people say, "You know, that's just not my deal now."
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. And you have a tremendous amount of diversity in your alumni.
\n\nALICE: We do, yeah.
\n\nVICTORIA: And so do you find that there are some challenges in bringing in that group to the rest of the accelerator world?
\n\nALICE: Yeah, you know, funny, I was thinking about that yesterday. So about 70% of our alumni, and this has been true across the board from day one, are people of color or women. At one point, it was around 30% were women of color. I haven't looked at that number in a while. We've worked with about 550 companies worldwide.
\n\nIn the Middle East, half of our alumni are women-led companies. In the U.S., we are fortunate to be able to work with a lot of indigenous communities. New Mexico is home to a large indigenous population. And it's a lot of the reason our culture is so dynamic and beautiful.
\n\nSo for us, that was always a no-brainer that that was where a lot of the interesting creativity would come from and that that was where the rising markets were. We, for example, accelerated and were the first investor in a company called Native Realities, which is a comic book. And they founded the first indigenous Comic Con, which is now called Indigenous Pop X worldwide.
\n\nAnd they saw obviously before even Black Panther, and it became kind of like people said, "Oh yeah, superheroes come from all communities." They saw that that market was rising. There are 300 million indigenous people worldwide. There are two comic book companies. Let that sink in. [laughs] It's like, oh my God, what is the possibility then not just around comic books, but gaming, animation, all kinds of creative tools, film, music? That's a huge market that has not been served at all.
\n\nAnd we understood early on that that was an area where people want to tell their own stories. People want to understand the stories of other people. And then people want to build new stories together across those cultural or geographic boundaries. And the technology had shifted such that that was possible.
\n\nIn 1980, that wasn't really possible. The distribution channels of film were such that you had to raise money in Hollywood and have Tom Hanks and whatever. That's just not true anymore. So we saw that early on, and that has helped attract a lot of entrepreneurs who share our passion for really telling those stories.
\n\nHowever, I would say for people who want to support rising entrepreneurs out of what I'm going to call distressed communities or communities that have been literally discouraged from becoming their own economic leaders is that the burden that most of the people bear who are building businesses, for example, from Black communities, or native communities, or women in the Middle East, those people tend to bear a larger burden than someone from a more privileged background like myself.
\n\nThey're often the person in their family and for their community who is helping to ensure that people get the health care they need, that that kid was able to visit the college that they wanted to apply to. They become that sort of anchor of support for more people than in situations where we have more support and more what I call margin. They have really little margin.
\n\nAnd so to ask them to, for example, join an accelerator full-time for 12 weeks that just doesn't work. Because the decision that they're making, you know, from a very privileged position, we can say, "Well, either you're dedicated to your business, or you're not." But really, what we're saying to them is, well, either you do your business, or you love your family and your culture. That's the question we're asking them, and that's a totally unfair question. That's a ridiculous question. Every single one of us would say, "I love my family. Thanks, see ya."
\n\nCHAD: So how do you balance that?
\n\nALICE: Well, it's tough. I mean, first of all, we have adopted in the programs where it's more for early-stage entrepreneurs, and we're opening doors to entrepreneurship. And we are being first and foremost patient, patient with they're crossing that threshold.
\n\nWe understand that our core outcome is that people come always saying, "I'm an entrepreneur. I'm ready for the journey." That means we do things like, first of all, we do all online. If possible, we do a meeting upfront, so everybody meets each other in person because that kind of sets a tone of just it's a lot of fun. We have food and drink, and we have a good time. And then we do 6 to 12 weeks online, and then we do a gathering at the end. And we build a community first and foremost of people who are understanding how they can help one another.
\n\nSo Creative Startups is a little different in how we do accelerators. We do not ever have people stand at the front of the room and tell people what they should do with their business partly because we're educators first and foremost, and we understand...I have a Ph.D. in entrepreneurship. I understand that entrepreneurs tend to be experiential learners, not all but many.
\n\nAnd we're not going to be there in a year building their business. They're going to be building their business. We have to build their self-confidence. We have to build their ability to say, "I know how to row the boat. You're along for the ride." I'm just along for the ride. [laughs]
\n\nThat requires us to do things like, okay, so let's work on your business model and really carefully chunk out here's one piece of that. Let's go deeply into understanding that. Let's tackle the vocabulary. Let's look at how people talk about it online. Let's open that door culturally so that you can take that into your experiences and say, "Oh, I already kind of do that. I just use a different language," which is what a lot of designers do.
\n\nA lot of designers, whatever your background, already do entrepreneurial processes. They use different language, and it's just a translation. It's literally just vocabulary. So we help people understand that the best way to figure out your client's needs are by listening; all people know that. If you want to understand someone else, listen, and unpacking that into then business speak a little bit, and then giving them opportunities to go do that in the real world.
\n\nAnd being patient with how they might do that or why they couldn't get it done this week. Or maybe they want to come back with a different way of describing it than maybe a White person like me might describe what they experienced. And just giving a lot of latitude to people to have that own experience themselves.
\n\nThat honestly...I know that sounds very philosophical. But it breaks down into tactical things that we do in an accelerator that opens the door to a lot more entrepreneurs. And our Net Promoter Score is 9. Over 90% of people would recommend our program. People love our programs. And 70% of our alumni are still in business. So I think it's working. We have a lot of learning to do. We're doing an indigenous accelerator right now, and it's a lot of learning for me. It's very eye-opening.
\n\nCHAD: As an accelerator specific to indigenous peoples, what made you decide to do that? Some people I know, thoughtbot included, sometimes hesitate to do things like that because we don't want...there's some hesitation around doing something like that.
\n\nALICE: So we share all of those hesitations, and we think they're spot on. We are doing this in partnership with a group called Creative Nations out of Colorado. They are all indigenous people. They're a new group. And we envision Creative Startups moving more toward a place of being kind of like the intel, you know, the old intel inside. We are inside, and we're an engine within another organization.
\n\nSo here in Santa Fe, we partnered with Vital Spaces, which serves Black and Brown creative entrepreneurs and artists. And our goal is to help build their capacity to be able to keep doing programs as they see fit for entrepreneurs. And we're standing by as they would like us to help. So we took that same approach with working with Creative Nations. It's been a fantastic partnership.
\n\nThe lead working with us is a woman named Kelly Holmes. She is Lakota Sioux. She's from the Cheyenne River Reservation. And she founded Native Max Media, which publishes Native Max Magazine, the world's first fashion magazine for indigenous entrepreneurs. She is a brilliant, creative entrepreneur. She is self-taught. She eked it out. She has been around ten years now. It's astounding.
\n\nAnd you see the magazine, and it's spectacular. It is high glamour, beautiful. And it is reshaping the way not only indigenous people see themselves but how White people see indigenous people. And those reframed stories are so important to building a more equitable society. So I was over the moon to partner with her. Then I learned her mom is one of the few Lakota language teachers.
\n\nSo Lakota is her first language. Her mother teaches Lakota and teaches teachers how to teach Lakota. So she grew up with an educator. So she has taken to building this, again, patient, very exploratory online environment for indigenous entrepreneurs. And then I bring sometimes the more technical like, oh, you're asking a specific question about how to do structured interviews with customers. Sure, let me talk a little bit about that.
\n\nBut as we started out this conversation, you guys, entrepreneurship is not an intellectual challenge usually; it's a heart challenge. I don't mean that in a way to disparage how important it is to be really strategic and smart about your business. But I think at the outset especially, you just have to be able to hang in there and keep doing it. And then, as you grow into that opportunity, you start to see that the intellectual challenges unfold because your opportunities become more complex.
\n\nBut at this outset with Kelly, it's been a conversation with people who are frankly reframing themselves as business leaders, people who own businesses and have employees based on their creative output. And that's a really exciting space to work in. We wouldn't work in this space if we didn't have a partner who shared our vision and who wanted to be that native leader of a program like this. It just wouldn't really feel exciting.
\n\nCHAD: I think that that's great advice and a framing that helps me think about the things that we've tried to do in the past and the things that we hope to do in the future and realizing that really genuinely partnering with someone in the actual community that we're trying to serve or to have an impact with is sometimes an important missing component that we need to incorporate. That'll help solve a lot of the hesitations that we might have around doing something.
\n\nALICE: Yeah, yeah.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And we've all heard before that culture eats strategy for breakfast, which I think -- [laughs]
\n\nALICE: That's my favorite line, Victoria. You nailed it.
\n\nVICTORIA: It makes sense that the more connected you are to your culture and to your community, that's where you'll be the most successful when your heart is in it.
\n\nALICE: Yeah. And I want to give sort of a plug for stepping outside of the zone of the way...I went to business school. I have an MBA. I'm really well-versed in that whole world. I'm married to a venture capitalist. He teaches how to do venture capital at Stanford. That whole world is very familiar to me. And it seems to not be helping us solve the problems that we have now as a society.
\n\nAnd so one of the reasons I encourage people to go to those partners, go to those places where you're like, I don't fit in here; I don't understand what's going on here; these people speak a different cultural language, form, way of doing things, I encourage that because I think that for people who want to build a different world, we have to stop looking to the world that we already have. And we have to say, "Well, who does things differently? What could we learn?"
\n\nOne of the most beautiful things about working with the entrepreneurs in the cohort right now, the indigenous cohort, is they first talk about taking care of their people, that's first. And it's like, wow, if that's your entire frame, you start to make really different decisions in business. If you're talking about well, I want to take care of the people in my community; I want people to be healthy and happy and be able to pursue their own dreams; that's a really different frame of mind for a baseline for decision making.
\n\nThe other thing that Kelly talks about that I love (I'm stealing it from her.) is she talks about fighting for her business, fighting for her business. And that, to me, is such a great way to feel like, okay, if I'm fighting for my business, I know how much Creative Startups has achieved. I'm not fighting for myself. It's not my ego. It's none of that. It's fighting for my business so my business can keep having the impact.
\n\nEverything that I think about now in terms of working with indigenous entrepreneurs is this has nothing to do with me. Their frame is very much my community, my people, my business, which is over there. And it's a humble way of understanding one's place. And that is a really exciting reframe for me to think about how we can solve problems like the climate crisis, like the disparity between rich and poor, like the disintegration of our democracy. What if we had a different frame? How could we solve problems differently, maybe better?
\n\nSo for us, these partnerships unlock a whole vast area of new thinking, new ways of doing business, new ways of taking care of other people. And at the end of the day, that's what gets me back in the rowboat [laughs] is this idea of, wow, we are having an impact on other people. And doing it with people who have a different starting point has really shaped a lot of the work that we do.
\n\nCHAD: Well, I'm sorry that we have to wrap up. Otherwise, we could keep on going and solve the climate crisis and unraveling of our democracy, but -- [laughs]
\n\nALICE: Yeah, I have an appointment at 2:00 where I'm doing climate crisis. So I'll let you know how it goes.
\n\nCHAD: Okay, wonderful.
\n\nALICE: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Alice, thank you so much for joining the show and sharing everything with us. We really appreciate it.
\n\nALICE: Yeah, I was delighted to be with you guys and hope to continue the conversation.
\n\nCHAD: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm.
\n\nVICTORIA: And if you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm.
\n\nCHAD: You can find me on Twitter at @cpytel.
\n\nVICTORIA: And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nCHAD: Thanks for listening, and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Alice Loy.
Sponsored By:
Joe Barb is Executive Director and Founder of LGBTQ+ Family Connections Center. They have a mission to strengthen and empower all youth, however they identify, to overcome obstacles by providing housing, supportive counseling, community education, and advocacy.
\n\nVictoria and Chad talk with Joe about identifying needs for the center, his own lived experience and connection to the LGBTQ+ community, and deciding what services to provide and evaluating which are most impactful.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel.
\n\nVICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Joe Barb, Executive Director and Founder of LGBTQ+ Family Connections Center, with a mission to strengthen and empower all youth however they identify to overcome obstacles by providing housing, supportive counseling, community education, and advocacy. Joe, thank you for joining us.
\n\nJOE: Thank you. I appreciate it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Wonderful. So you started the center over two years ago. If you could go back in time and give yourself advice to when you were first starting out, what would you tell yourself?
\n\nJOE: Wow, very similar to for-profit companies, having the tenacity to keep knocking on doors, never accepting no for an answer, and understanding that tenacity is everything. Nothing happens without continuing the fight every day.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. And how did you first identify that need for the center?
\n\nJOE: A million years ago, when I was a late teenager, my parents had a pastor in their church suggest to them that in order to bring me back to God and back to their church, that they should cut me off financially, you know, I was a young freshman in college prod me in that direction. So my parents took the advice, and I found myself in my second semester of college with no funding. The check for the second semester had been canceled from my family, and I didn't know what to do.
\n\nSo I called a friend in South Dakota that we had met on vacation. And she said, "You know what? I have an apartment building here. I just had an apartment become vacant. Why don't you move to South Dakota, and then we'll work on everything else?" So that lived experience kind of proded the whole thing. And then meeting the youth who had been displaced from home for being a trans youth caused the rest.
\n\nCHAD: Well, I'm really sorry for that personal experience that you had. But it's pretty powerful and that you've gone on to help others in similar situations is really admirable.
\n\nJOE: Yeah, it's been quite a journey. And my lived experience, honestly, I was with stability within 24 hours. The more I became comfortable and complacent in my life and then met somebody who wasn't; it brought me back to that. And then just looking at statistics, looking at how youth end up in a houseless situation created something in me that I had to address.
\n\nVICTORIA: So you had your own lived experience and that connection to your community which helped you identify that need and start out on the center. Did you find there were a lot of resources for building nonprofits?
\n\nJOE: There isn't. And it's really something that when you go into it, you believe that when you create a nonprofit and you finish that application, you send it into the IRS, and you get approval, that you put a great idea out there and that the community will respond and that everyone will immediately jump on it and say, "You know what? You're right. This is needed. We need housing. We need to make sure that youth are safe." And that's not the way it works. It doesn't work that way at all.
\n\nIt's a lot of connections and community and getting involved and putting the statistics and the numbers out there so that people are aware of it. But it's mostly connecting the stories. The more youth that I've met and worked with and connected them to a story and told their story, the more people respond.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And so, what have you found to be the most impactful in sharing that story and in managing that content to get to the right people who can help you with this need?
\n\nJOE: The most impactful part is people just aren't aware. We all know that there's a homeless population. No matter where you live, there's a homeless population, and it impacts communities. But what we aren't aware of is we all typically believe that the government is funding these things and it's being taken care of and that maybe those people just chose homelessness and don't realize that the resources are very limited. Until those resources are able to show a data of need, that person may not be counted that you saw on the corner.
\n\nCHAD: You're pretty active socially online. I think where I first saw you was through a mutual connection on LinkedIn, and your posts started to be in my feed, and I liked and subscribed, I guess. How much of the awareness that you're putting out there is coming from social networks and online versus in-person and local communities?
\n\nJOE: I'd say it's probably a good mixture of both. Locally, obviously, I'm deeply involved with other service providers, and I'm involved with local government. I'm on any kind of board that you can think of that impacts youth homelessness. So there's that within my community but having those LinkedIn...just this weekend, we had our pride, and at our pride, someone walked over to me, started talking at our booth. And he said, "Well, I know you from LinkedIn.
\n\nCHAD: [chuckles]
\n\nJOE: I noticed your picture with Sylvan Lake behind you from your LinkedIn, and I just had to come over to meet you and say hi." And I thought, how impactful is social media that someone who lives in Florida happened to be in South Dakota came to pride and recognized me from a picture?
\n\nVICTORIA: Wow. Yeah, it makes our world feel a little smaller sometimes, doesn't it?
\n\nJOE: Absolutely.
\n\nVICTORIA: And the problem of youth homelessness and LGBTQ+ homelessness is very complex. And I think other nonprofit founders might be interested in how you decide what services you're going to provide and how you evaluate to see which ones are the most impactful.
\n\nJOE: We did things kind of backwards. So I formed the board of directors, and typically what happens with the board of directors is they want to become your advisors. And I thought these people have great professional experience. We have doctors; we have PhDs, we have scientists literally on our board. And those people don't have the lived experience. So I thought, who do we go to to develop programming and support for people that are in need? And the answer was glaringly clear; it had to be the people who were in need.
\n\nSo I formed a Youth Action Board with the State Continuum of Care. And it comprises of youth ages 13 to 24 who have lived experience. We keep it at 66% have to have lived experience. And technically, most of them have even much more than that. But we connect with them through service providers who assist youth. And those were the people that we used to formulate what they needed, decide what was most beneficial to help them during vulnerable points, and then help them get out of situations.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And I think that user experience, that experience bringing that into the products and services that you're creating, just makes a lot of sense for us, and that's what we bring into our design as well.
\n\nJOE: Yeah, I mean, we do it in almost every industry. Whatever you create, whatever product you create, whether it's something tangible that you hold or whether it's a service, you bring in a test group. And that test group typically is people that you're seeking to utilize or buy your service or your product. And in doing that, we end up developing a better product.
\n\nIt's the same thing with a nonprofit. We had to get the voice of those who we would be serving in order to make sure that we were doing what they needed, not what we thought as professional people or personal opinions was the way forward.
\n\nCHAD: Was there something as you were talking to people and learning that surprised you?
\n\nJOE: Probably the same thing that everyone develops is an opinion of homelessness. We all think that people that experience homelessness it's typically through some self-inflicted issue; typically, drugs and alcohol come to mind and some type of cause that brought you there that you had influence on. And I've learned that most of the kids that we serve had no influence on their homelessness other than to be born where they were or to who they were born.
\n\nA lot of our youth are coming from, oh, they've lived in shelters, or foster care, or aged out of foster care. It just changed my dichotomy of thinking that we would be serving people that had addiction problems or alcohol problems when in case of the youth...currently we're at, I think 68 youth served. I've only met one youth that had a previous addiction.
\n\nCHAD: It's really just that lack of a safety net. And all it takes is your family not supporting you and not having a safety net.
\n\nJOE: Absolutely. And that's just it. You said it very well. Most of us, when we have an incident in our life that we need some help because there's a vulnerability, we have people around us that we go back to. We have either family or close friends that we can say, "You know what? I lost my job. I need a little bit of help here," or "This medical incident happened, and could you assist us?"
\n\nAnd we get a response from our family or friends that typically is supportive and helps us find a way. A lot of youth, especially youth that experience homelessness, don't have that connection to family. So that's where we need to bring in community to support them.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And do you find there are unique challenges to supporting youth experiencing homelessness in the Midwest in South Dakota where you are versus in more urban areas?
\n\nJOE: Absolutely. Carl Siciliano is my TA advisor. He created the Ali Forney Center in New York, which is the largest housing support for homeless youth for...they specifically only target LGBTQ youth in the United States. And in talking to him and in looking at our demographics, it was very different. For them, people in larger cities will just seek out their services. They learn about it word of mouth. They find out that there's a shelter in place.
\n\nHere, our homeless population is much more hidden. And typically, what happens here is youth will gather together. And it'll be six or eight of them who will become friendly, and they will try to support each other by one of them will get a hotel, and then six or eight of them will live together. Or they're doubled up in one person's apartment, six or eight people live in somebody else's apartment, which truly isn't housed because it's not their place. And they try to support each other. So they're very hidden in our communities.
\n\nCHAD: It's unfortunate there's a lot of stuff happening in the U.S. and worldwide with legislation being passed now anti-transgender. I think South Dakota was the first state in the country to pass an anti-transgender bill this year. Are there particular challenges to doing the work that you do in today's climate?
\n\nJOE: Accessing mental health services, we had to overcome that obstacle by forming relationships with counseling services so that we could make sure that any youth, whether they were insured or underinsured, or uninsured, could immediately access mental health. And that took quite a bit of work on our part in order to make that happen. It should be easy. It should be easy to access mental health.
\n\nAnd that's probably one of the biggest challenges because I can stabilize anyone tomorrow with either a hotel, or a house, or an apartment. But if you don't have mental health to help with what got you there, you're still living in trauma. If you're living in trauma, how can you focus on things like going back to school or having a career or what even tomorrow means for you? Because you're living in trauma today. So, absolutely, to answer your question, mental health.
\n\nCHAD: And is that a matter of providers not wanting to provide services or not being able to pay for it?
\n\nJOE: Not being able to pay for it. There are things that you can access if you're uninsured or underinsured if you meet the guidelines to get into mental health access. The problem with that is if you need to help today, that's a process. We wanted to skip the process. We wanted to make sure that if you walked into our drop-in center today that this afternoon I can have you with a therapist of your choice.
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\n\nCHAD: You have a website. You collect donations online. And we definitely want to link all of that stuff in the show notes. It will be there, and I hope people contribute. But when it comes to the tactical stuff on the product and business side, are there particular tools or resources you were able to draw upon to put together online donations, the website, that kind of thing?
\n\nJOE: As far as platforms, is that what you're asking?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah.
\n\nJOE: There are some great platforms that have been built specifically for nonprofits in order to help get the word out and help fundraise. That for us hasn't been the primary. In this type of nonprofit, typically, most of our donations are not donations or grants. They're things that we...like, I just spent two years on a grant that is quite substantial. But it was two years of work, literally 40 hours a week for two years.
\n\nSo there are those tools, there's the GoFundMe, and there are all kinds of tools for sharing on social media in order to get people to donate. They're great, but you have to have a large circle in order to utilize those. And you have to have people that are willing to do that as well. So I don't think we have the tool that's the best tool yet socially.
\n\nCHAD: What would something that was better look like for you?
\n\nJOE: It's more getting corporations and businesses and private companies involved in what a lot of companies are already doing. They will seek from their employees giving initiatives. And they will seek information to what does the company want to support as a community? Because that's what their employees care about.
\n\nI think those things have a more sustainable development and a more sustainable footprint for nonprofits that when organizations get involved that are private and then offer to their employees a way to donate, that works best.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. For thoughtbot, to honor Pride Month, we collected a series of donations that we were going to make. And there was team suggestion...because we have teams all over the place, we wanted to have a local impact. And then when it came to actually doing those donations, I think we had 10 to 20 organizations that we wanted to donate, not a huge amount of money to each one but hopefully, it makes a difference.
\n\nAnd the way that we needed to do that a person at thoughtbot needed to go and either find the donate link, the place to do it, and some of them didn't even have it. And we wanted to, you know, maybe it's a place in Brazil or something, and we need to get them the money somehow, wiring it or something. And so that was a fair amount of manual work to figure that out and then to make the payments.
\n\nJOE: And I think because it goes along with we're learning as organizations that we have to take care of the social and emotional part of employees just as well as we do the work environment. It's part of the work environment. So I think that that kind of goes back to HR, which is my background. HR should look at those things in advance and find local nonprofits to support local ideas and then maybe some national ones as well.
\n\nWe all know of The Trevor Project and some of the great broader campaigns that do a lot of really good work. And have that ready so that when somebody joins your company you can show them and say, "Hey, by the way, these are some local organizations that we can do a payroll deduction for if you like, or we can buy annual contributions," and let the employees see that the company cares about the local area and also cares about things on a national platform that impact employees.
\n\nVICTORIA: I love that. I think that's a great way to involve corporations in giving back and connecting employees to their local communities and the local groups that need support. Is there anything else that you want to tell our listeners in order to support the LGBTQ+ Center or in general?
\n\nJOE: The majority of our youth are LGBTQ+. And that's because statistically, across the United States, the majority of youth seeking housing services unaccompanied are LGBTQ+, up to 40%. But we don't turn away any youth. It doesn't matter how they identify. It doesn't matter what their circumstances are. The only thing that we ask is if you're telling us you're homeless, then we're going to assist in that.
\n\nWe do have age criteria of 16 to 24 because that matches the federal guidelines for the programming that we're in through federal dollars. So other than that, I mean, we still would help anyone of any age, but that's the big thing to know is that we help any youth however they identify.
\n\nAnd what could listeners do? Obviously, on our website or look into your community as well and see what is a support in your area and find something that you can contribute to.
\n\nVICTORIA: That sounds great. Thank you so much. Do you have any questions for me or Chad?
\n\nJOE: I think that what you're doing is great. I like that you are thinking of nonprofits as a company as well because a lot of people view it differently when it's actually a company. You have to figure out a way to sustain funding and bring money in just like any other organization in order to do the work.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I think that's a common misconception that people have. And I'm sure it's not the case with you and your organization. But I like to remind people that nonprofit really just means that it can't show a profit. So there are lots of nonprofits out there that just end up spending all of the money that they have. That is really also technically what it means sometimes.
\n\nJOE: And you bring up a great point. There's an IRS website to look up any nonprofit organization, and you can look at how they spend their money. I do that all the time before I make a donation. Because we've all heard those stories of CEOs, who make 30 million a year or whatever crazy number. You can always look up any organization and see how they spend their money.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's a really good tip for people to do before you get involved with an organization with donations or your time and really making sure it matches your values and that kind of thing.
\n\nVICTORIA: Great. All right. I think we're about at time. So with that, I will wrap us up and let everyone know you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm.
\n\nCHAD: If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter at @cpytel.
\n\nVICTORIA: And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nCHAD: Thanks for listening and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Joe Barb.
Sponsored By:
Lucy Hall is the Co-Founder of LOANHOOD, an online fashion rental platform and community that allows users to loan inclusive, diverse, and creative styles for an affordable price.
\n\nChad talks with Lucy about being a peer-to-peer fashion rental app, building a community, and reducing the impacts of the fashion industry on the planet and people by helping to create a sustainable future.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Lucy Hall, the Co-Founder of LOANHOOD, who are changing the face of fashion. Lucy, thank you so much for joining me.
\n\nLUCY: Thank you so much for having me, Chad.
\n\nCHAD: How are some of the ways that LOANHOOD is changing the face of fashion?
\n\nLUCY: So we're starting off with a peer-to-peer fashion rental app, which we just launched ten days ago now.
\n\nCHAD: Congratulations on the launch.
\n\nLUCY: It's been a long time in the making. And, like I said, we're starting with a fashion rental app. But there are so many different ways that we want to change the face of fashion. It definitely needs a facelift.
\n\nCHAD: What caused you to start with the rental platform?
\n\nLUCY: It was something that we were really passionate about. So my co-founders and I actually worked in the fashion industry for the majority of our careers. So we could see first-hand how it was changing, how it's developing. And sustainability started coming into our lives, and we could see that things had to change.
\n\nAnd we know that the fashion industry is quite archaic. Big fashion businesses are like these huge ships. It's so hard for them to change their course and to actually implement sustainability into their supply chains or their values. And we knew that we could do it quicker and better and faster than them.
\n\nSo we started testing the idea of circular fashion by doing clothes swaps which is a kind of an entry-level way to circulate fashion for free or relatively cheaply. And we started getting this amazing feedback from people like, "Oh, we would love to do this again. And have you thought about monetizing it?" And, of course, that was our...to get to scale, we knew that we had to monetize this sharing of clothes. And that's how our peer-to-peer fashion rental app grew and was born.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. So you have two co-founders.
\n\nLUCY: I do.
\n\nCHAD: Jade and Jen. Were the three of you working together at the time?
\n\nLUCY: Funny story, Jade and I are actually best friends. And Jade was my model back in the day. So Jade has been a fashion model for 12-plus years. And she was on Britain's Next Top Model. And I was a model agent. She came into my agency as one of the runner-uppers, and we forged a lifelong friendship from there. And we've both been passionate about fashion. And then, as I said, our career paths, we could see the detrimental effect of the planet.
\n\nAnd Jade decided to go back to university and start studying. She did her master's in fashion futures at London College of Fashion. And that's where she started seeing sustainability. And the idea of a peer-to-peer rental came from that course. She was studying the future of fashion, and she knew that this was the only way we can move forward.
\n\nAnd Jen was a friend of Jade and is a graphic designer by trade and is an amazing brand builder and amazing designer. So we were asking her for some advice. And she came on as a co-founder at the beginning because she just knew this was the right path for her.
\n\nCHAD: You started with these swaps. Were you doing the swaps as friends because you felt it was the right thing to do? Or did you have an eye towards this could be something more?
\n\nLUCY: Well, we knew from the beginning that we wanted to do something big. We knew we'd got to a certain point in our careers where we were like, right, let's use our skills to really make a change. But we were also working, and we all had jobs, so we were kind of doing it as a side hustle, just testing the idea and going, "Oh yeah, we'll do this." And then it started picking up, and we got a contract with a local council. And we were like, wow, people are really interested in this. Let's keep going, and then the pandemic hit.
\n\nCHAD: How did the pandemic affect you?
\n\nLUCY: [chuckles] Well, as you can imagine, people weren't really doing clothes swaps or renting or even thinking about those things at the beginning of the pandemic anyhow. So we kind of just put it on hold and did what everyone did in the pandemic, hunkered down.
\n\nAnd we started learning as much as we could about the circular economy, about sharing economy, trust economy, marketing, product, really teaching ourselves from the bottom up what it takes to make a global brand. So we were quite lucky in the respect that we had that time away to really hone our skills and focus on what we wanted in the long term.
\n\nSo post-pandemic, when we came out of the lockdowns, although there were multiple back and forth, as you know, it was definitely a stop-start for us, but we knew that it actually...it just allowed us that time to really focus our minds on what we wanted and a long-term plan, not just like, oh, let's try this out. We know what we want for the next 5 to 10 years, basically.
\n\nCHAD: At what point did you decide, okay, we have to make an app?
\n\nLUCY: It was a difficult one because we thought Shopify, Sharetribe there are all these amazing platforms. You can just get a business at the click of your fingers. However, for peer-to-peer fashion rental, it's a much more complex model. Even Sharetribe, which is supposed to be for those kinds of models it's not as detailed as we needed it to be. So we tried to build a website from scratch. And, again, we just knew that we're very much focused on Gen Z.
\n\nAnd when we were talking to our audience, we knew that they wanted an app. So we just scrapped it and said let's just go for it. But having no technical background was a real difficult decision for us because we had no funding. We'd all just left our jobs. The pandemic had happened, so we didn't have any savings really. So we had some money from the clothes swaps.
\n\nAnd we did a rewards-based Crowdfunder, and we raised £14,000 from friends and family in our community that were buying free rentals for the future and just believed in the mission that we were on. And we were able to get that £14,000 and put it into the start of building an app. And as you're aware, apps cost a lot of money.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nLUCY: We didn't get that far. And we learned a lot of lessons with the build because we tried to project manage it ourselves. Having no technical background, that was tricky. And we offshored it to a team in India who were lovely and amazing but not as skilled as we needed them to be. Because we had no technical background, we really needed somebody to lead that for us.
\n\nSo we had a starting point, but we knew that we had to actually get a technical lead on board pretty soon. And we were lucky enough to find a partner in a company called ON, who are based in the UK. And with them on board, they led the tech from there on.
\n\nCHAD: Continuing to work with that team in India, or did they actually provide the entire team at that point?
\n\nLUCY: We switched to another offshore team because it costs so much money here in the UK.
\n\nCHAD: So when was this all happening?
\n\nLUCY: Last year, mainly. 2021.
\n\nCHAD: To give folks an idea, you make the decision to start building an app. You start doing that in 2021. You just launched. But your business is more than just the app. Were you right up to the wire with the app being ready?
\n\nLUCY: Like you said, we're building a community. And what we learned from the pandemic is that you can't rely on one part of your business to help you succeed. You need multiple things. And what we're passionate about more than anything is community. And what we found with the fashion industry is that it can be quite elitist.
\n\nAnd if you want to work in the fashion industry, you have to move to London or New York or Paris, and you have to probably know somebody in the fashion industry, and we wanted to change that. We wanted you to be able to start your own fashion journey wherever you are based.
\n\nAnd what we also saw was that all this money that people were spending on fashion was going to big fashion businesses and to probably one guy at the top of that chain, whereas, with peer-to-peer rental, you can actually circulate that money within communities. You're lifting communities up so they can create their own sustainable fashion future. So what was really important to us was to have community as one of our main pillars going forward.
\n\nCHAD: And how have you gone about building that community?
\n\nLUCY: Organically so far, which has been really nice. And again, the events that we do have been part of that. But to scale, we really need to start building out ambassador programs, referral systems that can help us hit those kinds of network effects.
\n\nCHAD: So I know you're only in the UK.
\n\nLUCY: Correct.
\n\nCHAD: What are the limiting factors to expansion beyond the UK?
\n\nLUCY: Money, obviously.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] Okay.
\n\nLUCY: We’re on a funding journey at the moment, and that's a ride for sure. So we kind of use the Depop playbook. Do you know Depop? You're probably over 25, so that's probably why you don't know it.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] Yes.
\n\nLUCY: A third of 16 to 25-year-olds are on Depop in the UK. It's the 10th most-searched-for resale platform in the U.S. And they started off in the UK, and they organically grew into the U.S., which is nuts. We probably won't do that, of course, but we plan to go to the U.S. potentially next. But it depends on investment, on what our audience is saying, where they're based.
\n\nWhat we find with our audiences, the universities that we partner with we have a lot of international students. So they're taking that idea back to their hometowns, which is really interesting. But on a tech front, going into the U.S. is easier because it's an English-speaking country. Going into Europe is a bit more complex because you have lots of different languages, although you have one single currency, which is helpful.
\n\nCHAD: Since your model is peer-to-peer, individuals are sending the rented item directly to the person who's renting it, right?
\n\nLUCY: That's correct, yeah.
\n\nCHAD: And so I suppose one potential barrier is you don't need to be able to receive centrally or to handle things in the United States. But you need enough people in the U.S. to make it worthwhile for individuals to be sending each other things to have enough rentals and activity.
\n\nLUCY: Always, the problem with the marketplace is the cold start problem. There is a great book by Andrew Chen called The Cold Start Problem. And we really need to build both the supply side, which we call the loaner, and the demand side, which we call the borrower. So we have been working really hard in the UK to get as many of the supply side on board because we know the people that we want to be on the platform, so emerging designers, young makers, and creators.
\n\nAnd because we have our fashion backgrounds, we can identify those people quite quickly. And we've done things that are totally not scalable, like messaging them on Instagram and scouting people in the streets. But as a small startup, you kind of have to do those scrappy things as well just to kind of build the supply side.
\n\nCHAD: Right. And I think that's why so many marketplaces end up focusing on particular geographies even if they could expand because that focus helps you do those unscalable things that you need to do in the early days to bootstrap that community that you need for the marketplace.
\n\nIt hadn't occurred to me until you just said it that I've been thinking that this would totally be individuals, but for an emerging fashion designer to be on your community offering up their clothing for rental, that hadn't even occurred to me as a possibility.
\n\nLUCY: Something that we're passionate about, especially post-pandemic, a lot of young people that are either at university and didn't get the real university experience had to make some extra money started these side hustles of teaching themselves to crochet or teaching themselves to knit. And now they have these amazing pieces, and they're open to renting them out as well as doing their retail side of it.
\n\nAnd what we found from the resale people, so the Depopers or people on Vinted, was that they'd get this kind of seller's remorse. So they'd upload the item, take amazing pictures, and they'd sell it once. But with rental, you upload it, and you can rent it out over and over and over again. And you still get to keep it and wear it yourself, so a bit of a no-brainer.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. So you went on the journey of creating the app, creating the community. You've just launched. So are you actively fundraising?
\n\nLUCY: We are actively fundraising. We're just closing our pre-seed round. And we were very lucky to have an incredible lead investor come on board. He just got the idea instantly. What we found difficult is being female founders who don't have tech backgrounds; it's definitely a couple of negatives against us. [laughs] But we're going to use it to our advantage, and the people that are on the journey with us now 100% are behind us and believe in what we're doing. Because we're an impact business as well as we want to have profit alongside people and planet, that's what's important to us to make impact socially, environmentally, and through the industry.
\n\nSo the next step of our fundraising journey will be a crowdfund, an equity-based crowdfund. So we did the rewards-based crowdfunder last year. This year, it's going to be equity-based because we really believe that we're building this platform for our community, our audience. So they should be able to invest in us and come on that journey with us. And hopefully, the business grows to huge proportions, and that they can get some money back out of that later in their lives.
\n\nCHAD: Are you going to be using a platform to do that?
\n\nLUCY: We are undecided, although I'm leaning over to between one and another. There are only two platforms really in the UK, so Seedrs and Crowdcube. And I've spoken to some other founders that have done both platforms. And I've spoken to both the companies. I've looked at articles trying to find which one's the best fit for us.
\n\nOne interesting thing that we had with the Crowdfunder was we were deciding between Kickstarter and Crowdfunder UK. And Kickstarter is very much more focused on men, more sports, definitely a male demographic, so that's why we went with Crowdfunder.
\n\nWith Seedrs and Crowdcube, they don't have that; it's a very equal split. So it's just on the feedback that we've had from other people that have used those platforms. So I'm leaning towards one, but I won't say yet because I haven't fully decided.
\n\nCHAD: So you're only allowed to do that with people in the UK?
\n\nLUCY: I think it can be global, actually.
\n\nCHAD: Are you planning on having it be global?
\n\nLUCY: We have friends and family all across the world. I spoke to somebody today in Lithuania. I spoke to somebody the other day in Australia. I speak to people in the U.S. all the time that are like, "When are you coming to us?" [chuckles]
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that'll be interesting; the fact that you're able to do the equity crowdfund anywhere, but people won't be able to actually use the product right away. You know, it's sort of a catch-22; you've got to have one before you can have the other. And so, hopefully, people go along on the journey.
\n\nLUCY: Chicken and the egg. We need the money to build the tech, to build the audience. But we need the audience and the tech to show the investors that we've got engagement and traction. And yeah, there's always something. I think we're doing pretty good.
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\n\nCHAD: You mentioned that your three female founders have faced some bias, it sounds like, especially in talking with potential investors and seeking to grow your community. How has that been for you?
\n\nLUCY: You know, I don't want to put it down to being a female founder. I actually think the statistics tell us that, unfortunately. But I think what's the problem is that most of the people that I speak to in investment, either VCs or angels are guys, middle-aged guys between, say, late 30s to the 60s, and they are investing in businesses that they get.
\n\nThey don't generally get a peer-to-peer fashion rental app for Gen Z. They're like, "Oh, they're going to want to ship things to each other, and like, what about the packaging?" And they've never heard of Depop. It just got bought by Etsy for $1.62 billion. It's a huge industry, and rental is just an evolution of resale. And they're like, "Oh, okay, kind of get it," but they don't really. We have to hand-hold them a lot through the pitch deck and get them excited. But that's, the problem is that we don't have enough women in the investment space or ex-founders.
\n\nI know in the U.S., it's a lot different. They have a lot more ex-founders investing, especially angel investors, which is great because they get the journey. Whereas if you have somebody with a financial services background, all they care about is the math of it. And it's like, you know what? Startups don't always just succeed on the math; it's the vision, it's the idea, it's the network effects, it's the audience. There are so many different things at play here. And if you've never started a business yourself, you just don't get that.
\n\nCHAD: There's a lot that goes into creating a company. And it may not be the fact that your female founders directly contribute to it but in an environment where they're looking for a reason not to invest.
\n\nLUCY: Exactly.
\n\nCHAD: That bias can creep into all of the excuses or differences that someone might point to and say, "Oh, this isn't going to work," or "I don't get this."
\n\nLUCY: 100%. If you've got a good business idea and you've got a strong pitch deck and a strong financial model, then that business will do well, for sure. However, there are so many other factors at play. And when there are so many great businesses competing against one another, they unbiasedly go with one over the other.
\n\nCHAD: So you also mentioned you have another excuse that people might use is you just don't have a technical founder on the founding team.
\n\nLUCY: That's definitely a struggle. We will be bringing in a CTO later in the year, which will be really exciting because it's definitely the missing piece to the puzzle. We have domain expertise in fashion. We have that side of it down. But yeah, the technical side of things, I think all the founders that I have spoken to that do have a CTO in the founding team or even have brought their technical team in-house just say it's a game changer.
\n\nWhen somebody is invested in your company, and they're using the platform every single day, they can see the bugs. I mean, Chaz from Fat Llama, which is a great rental app, said that his developers would pull out a laptop in the pub and be like, "Oh, I just saw a bug. Let me quickly fix it." I mean, wow, that would be insane.
\n\nOur developers finish at a certain time, and that's it; they're gone. So if we have a problem on an evening or even because they are in India they have a different time, we can't get hold of them. It's so frustrating.
\n\nCHAD: So when you start to build a team, will you be doing it based in the UK?
\n\nLUCY: Or based in Europe, at least. I think another thing to come out of the pandemic is this remote work, and I think that's great. I think there's so much talent across Europe, across the world. But for the timezone issue, I think Europe is definitely a better fit for us because we don't want to be having the same issues that we're having now with the time differences with India. But yeah, there's so much talent across the whole of Europe.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's what we do at thoughtbot. We are all throughout the Americas, all throughout Europe, Middle East, and Africa. We've built our team. But we're grouped in by timezone. So people work with clients and with each other. And there, it's based on the timezone that they're in. And so that does make a big difference around how communication can work and how a part of the team you're able to feel because you're online at the same time as each other.
\n\nLUCY: Yeah. Definitely, that's a great show.
\n\nCHAD: But I definitely recommend casting as wide as possible. It definitely allows you to hire the best person for the job.
\n\nLUCY: Yeah, I think we need to find somebody that's passionate about the mission and who understands working with three co-founders that don't have a tech background that we probably do need a little bit more hand-holding than another founder would. We're learning so much as we go. Hopefully, we'll be coders one day.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nCHAD: I actually don't think that. Some people might say, "Oh, you really should learn to code yourself." And I think that that does a disservice to what you are bringing to the table with your domain expertise and with your ability to really understand the industry and know what needs to happen from a business perspective.
\n\nLUCY: Yeah, I would totally agree. You can't be an expert in every part of the field. You can't be an accountant; you can't be a CTO. You need to be good at exactly what you do. And I'm the CEO, so I have an overview of everything. And that's what I love is kind of have a little finger on each little project that's going on and really get an understanding of across the board.
\n\nBut you need those people that are drilling into, like, we have my co-founder, Jen, who's a graphic designer by trade, but she's our Chief Creative Officer. And she really drills down into the creative side of things. And she knows what she's talking about. And she is the expert in that, and that's so valuable.
\n\nCHAD: And I think that that's the important thing to founders to do early on is to really understand what their product and business are. You don't necessarily need to learn how to code. But I do think it's a mistake when early founders start stepping away from the product too early.
\n\nLUCY: Yeah, you need to be super close to the product. And you need good communication across all different divisions. So marketing and product have to talk to each other all the time, so we can tell our audience what's happening in the product, and then we can build the features that we need to grow from the marketing side of things. It's all about communication.
\n\nAnd it's so hard as a startup because there are so many different things going on and so many people pulling you from left to right. There are metrics to hit; there are bills to pay, there's audience, the community to keep happy. And it's like, oh, you can't drop the ball on anything. You really have to just do as much as you can. But if you communicate to each of those stakeholders, we're doing our best.
\n\nI mean, we had a mail-out the other day that said this is a business built by hands. It's built by people. I know we're a tech company, but there are real developers there hammering on their laptops. We're all here writing the copy and doing everything that we can to make this the most successful business so we can make real impact on the climate change and communities.
\n\nCHAD: I want to talk about that impact, but before we do, I'm curious, so you're all in the same general London area?
\n\nLUCY: No, we're not, actually. So Jade and Jen are based in London. And I actually moved out of London a couple of years ago, and I live in New York in the north of England.
\n\nCHAD: Oh, okay.
\n\nLUCY: See, definitely a different dynamic. And another reason why I'm passionate about bringing the fashion industry outside of London is because I travel up and down all the time, and I'm lucky it's like an hour 50 on the train. But that becomes expensive, and it's difficult to travel all the time.
\n\nCHAD: So, are you meeting in person with each other?
\n\nLUCY: We try. I just saw the girls last week. I'm seeing them again at the weekend. We speak every single day on Slack, WhatsApp. We have weekly calls, and we jump on pretty much video calls to each other every day. And that's, again, another thing from the pandemic that's been a game changer.
\n\nBecause when I actually left, it was just before the pandemic. We were like, oh my God, how is this going to work? But I knew that it was the right decision for me. And then the pandemic hit, and everyone was on video calls. And we were like, oh, this is so easy. This is great. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, it really opened that up to everyone's expectations.
\n\nLUCY: Yeah, and I think it's great. I think it's much more flexible. And we will get an office for sure. But I would love to have an office here and an office in London so we can have teams across the nation. Because I think we don't all have to go and live in a capital city to get the same out of the fashion industry.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. So let's talk about sustainability, the environment, and climate change. I am somewhat aware that an enormous amount of resources goes into creating new items of clothing.
\n\nLUCY: It's crazy. So the fashion industry accounts for 10% of the global greenhouse gas emissions at the moment. And if nothing changes by 2050, it will use a quarter of the world's carbon budget. It is insane, and it affects not only the planet but people. The garment workers are paid nothing. They're treated badly. And this is all part of the supply chains of fashion businesses.
\n\nAnd like I said, when I started in the fashion industry, e-commerce really was only just starting, and Jade, who is the model, was working for Asos, which is a big fashion brand and big fast fashion brand. So when she started working for them, she was shooting like 10-15 items, 20 items a day, and when she left, so five years later, they were shooting like 70 items per day. They were just churning out more and more fashion, more options.
\n\nAnd you can imagine most of the clothes are made...well, we have this whole disconnect about clothes. So I actually had a restaurant for three years in between my fashion career. And that's where I found sustainability because you have that connection with food. And you know that eating organic or eating locally and seasonally is better for you and better for the planet.
\n\nBut nobody thinks that your clothes come from the ground. They're made from plants. Or if they're not made from plants, they're made from oil. It's nuts that people don't have as much education around it. And that's partly because the fashion industry doesn't want people to know, and it's a lot of smoke and mirrors. It's a very opaque industry. We went to one university, and they said that they thought all clothes were made from machines. They had no idea that there was cotton and linen. And so, like, wow, this is crazy.
\n\nCHAD: So given that it's the magnitude of the size of the problem but also the industry, there are two ways of looking at that, I'm sure, one is the potential for your impact is huge. The other is how do you get started? How can we have an impact there? So how are you tackling that?
\n\nLUCY: I get asked a lot by people, like, how can I start my sustainability journey? I feel so much pressure to do things. I should be vegan, or I'm not recycling enough. I got a plastic bag, oh, I feel terrible. And it's like we are all on a journey. And you just have to start one day at a time and just be more conscious.
\n\nSo whether that's instead of buying one dress for a wedding that you are probably just going to stick in your wardrobe, why don't you rent it? Try one of the platforms that are out there, and you can rent a really cool dress, and that's probably someone else is going to rent it, and someone else is going to rent it. And by prolonging the life of an item, you can save so much energy and water. And those small things that we can each do will make a huge impact globally.
\n\nThere's a lot of mindset shifting and behavioral change that needs to come with rental. As we saw with Airbnb when they started, people were like, "Oh God, I don't want someone sleeping in my bed," and now I Airbnb in my house all the time. And it's a great source of secondary income, especially for a startup founder [chuckles] but also giving people the opportunity to have these experiences in small communities, which I love.
\n\nAnd that's what we want to see with fashion is that people will start being more conscious. And how LOANHOOD is different to other more traditional rental systems is it's much more affordable. And it's much more accessible because you can meet in person.
\n\nSo how we see it growing is these hyperlocal communities where you can meet people in person, a bit like Facebook Marketplace. They've done super well in more of the suburban areas. You can drop off your dress to somebody around the corner. So you're reducing the cost of delivery and reducing the emissions by meeting in person. So those hyperlocal communities will be really important in helping people adopt this behavior.
\n\nCHAD: Are you worried from a business perspective that if it's just renting to someone around the corner that they might not want to do it through LOANHOOD?
\n\nLUCY: I think people will still do it through the platform because of the added value that we give, you know, rental protection. I could go and borrow people's clothes like my friends in the area. I wouldn't do that. I might do it once or twice. I think if it's not somebody that you're really friendly with, then you would definitely do it through the platform.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. And by rental protection, you mean if something gets damaged or that kind of thing, it's protected.
\n\nLUCY: We don't have full insurance yet because, again, the sharing economy is a new economy. And, of course, insurers are very old school. And it's hard for them to grasp the fact that there's a new industry here, but that is changing. And as soon as we have more data, we'll be able to get full insurance for these items. But right now, we do it in-house and protect items, minor damage, or repairs. And if it isn't returned or damaged beyond repair by the person that's renting it, then they have to cover the retail price of it.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, makes sense. What's beyond rental platform in terms of this is where you decided to start, but your goal is to change the face of fashion? What's beyond?
\n\nLUCY: There are lots of different verticals that we can do within rental or in fashion. So we're really passionate about digital fashion. Jade, my business partner, is actually doing her Ph.D. in digital transformation in the metaverse. So how can we bring sustainability and ethical practices into the metaverse with fashion is something that we're really passionate about and something that we're exploring, renting different things so femtech, or skiwear, activewear, all those kind of things and then just creating a space for our community to grow creatively.
\n\nSo entrepreneurship is really important to us as well, and giving people the opportunity to be...especially Gen Z they have this way that's called pay to create. So they're passionate about making money out of things that they can do themselves, whether that's creating content, renting out the things they own, upcycling. We want to expand on that and give them the tools to actually create their own career paths.
\n\nYou don't have to go down the traditional university routes. We see a world where there's a LOANHOOD campus where you can come and learn how to be content creators or all sorts of different things. It's a really exciting time. And our 10-year plan keeps getting more bigger and bigger. And we're like, oh God, it's just exciting.
\n\nCHAD: Yet do you worry about spreading yourself too thin and compromising on the early steps?
\n\nLUCY: We always come back to the point of why we're doing this and who we're doing this for because what's the point? Otherwise, we're doing this to reduce impacts of the fashion industry on the planet and people. And we are doing this for our community and to give them the options and give them the power back.
\n\nAs we've seen with governments around the world, people in leadership roles are not doing enough, and we can't rely on them. So if we want to create our own sustainable future, we have to do it ourselves. And we want to give people the tools to do that.
\n\nCHAD: Well, I wish you the best of luck in that. I'm very confident that you're going to have the impact you're looking for along the way, and I wish you the best in that. Thank you for stopping by and sharing with us. I really appreciate it.
\n\nLUCY: Thank you so much for having me. It was great to chat too.
\n\nCHAD: If folks want to find out more or get in touch with you or follow along, where are all the different places that they can do that?
\n\nLUCY: Check out our website, loanhood.com. If you are a founder and you want to talk about funding or building a product, marketing, you can email me lucy (L-U-C-Y) at lucy@loanhood.com. And we are on Instagram and TikTok @loanhood.
\n\nCHAD: Wonderful. You can subscribe to the show and find notes which include a link to everything that Lucy just mentioned along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm.
\n\nIf you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks so much for listening, and I'll see you next time.
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Sponsored By:
Lenore Champagne Beirne is Founder and Managing Partner at Bright Ventures, a groundbreaking space for transformation in people, companies, and industries with coaching, capital, and community.
\n\nChad talks with Lenore about being at the intersection of all three of those services, providing support for diverse entrepreneurs, and staying intentional about the kind of company and culture they're creating.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Lenore Champagne Beirne, Founder and Managing Partner at Bright Ventures, a groundbreaking space for transformation in people, companies, and industries with coaching, capital, and community. Lenore, thank you so much for joining me.
\n\nLENORE: Absolutely. Thanks for having me, Chad.
\n\nCHAD: Bright Ventures, I love the three things: coaching, capital, and community. Would you say at the core you are a venture capital firm? Or is it really the intersection of all three of those services?
\n\nLENORE: It is truly the intersection of all three of those services. In fact, I started Bright Ventures because of a gap that I saw in the capital markets. But the first thing that we came to market with was coaching. And we learned so much from coaching diverse entrepreneurs and investors, and operators that we saw ways to add value to those groups and ultimately built the accelerator and venture capital fund and a number of other programs.
\n\nCHAD: Like most companies, I think what you have is relatively unique. Most companies are a coaching company or a venture capital fund. Do you get pushback, or are there concerns about doing too much?
\n\nLENORE: We've heard that question, although I don't know that the same question would be posed, at least in the same way, to a man, especially if it were a White man. But that aside, the reason we get the question is because I personally have led the launch of each new phase of the company. And what has really given our investors and also our partners comfort is that as we've expanded, we've also massively expanded the leadership and the skill set of the Bright Ventures team.
\n\nSo I would say at our heart, we are a transformation company. We make inclusive innovation possible. We define that as building a future that works for all of us together. We make that possible. And we know that because that's a huge, gnarly, complex, nuanced issue, you have to have a multipronged solution. And so, for us, the combination of individual and systems transformation through coaching, community where we can practice and learn, and capital that actually shifts how businesses can operate is the right set of interventions.
\n\nCHAD: So one of the things venture capitalists often give feedback to their clients about is either doing too much or mixing business models. So like, oh, you shouldn't do consulting because what you have is a product company. They are different revenue streams, and different ways of working, and different ways of generating money. How do you balance those different business models that are within your organization?
\n\nLENORE: Well, I think, as I mentioned, the business models that we have inside of Bright Ventures are intended to solve the same really big problem in different ways through different angles. So what we have found is that there are a lot of early-stage ventures that would benefit from the kind of coaching that we offer.
\n\nBut coaching is typically a really high-dollar item, only available to kind of an exclusive few. And so, it became clear to us that building a community with more scalable programs could meet the need of the stakeholder that we're interested in. And that has driven, time and time again, the business models that drive and organize our work at Bright Ventures.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I realize part of what's on my mind is say you're working with a founder and you invest in that founder or a founding team and a founding company, do they no longer become a coaching client that's actually paying you money for coaching? Or do they get it for free?
\n\nLENORE: Mm-hmm. So founders in our venture portfolio have access to the full suite of our services. And obviously, it's in the Bright Ventures entities' best interest to see those companies win and to give them all the resources and support that they need. You're asking these questions about business models.
\n\nOne thing I should clarify is that we don't have just a single business operating entity at Bright Ventures. The venture fund entity is a traditional GP LP structure that exists to invest in, yes, maybe some of the companies that we serve through our services business, but also a broad swath of companies across the U.S. at early stage.
\n\nThere's then a pretty straightforward consulting firm that we have that also goes by the name Bright Ventures but is a different legal and operational entity. So there's no proprietary information shared across those lines that are different management teams. What unites the Bright Ventures entities is a commitment to inclusive innovation and a set of frameworks that we have seen now proven to drive inclusive outcomes as a competitive advantage in venture.
\n\nCHAD: Oh, that's awesome clarification. One of the things that we've struggled with a little bit at thoughtbot is we do a lot at thoughtbot. It's probably one of the reasons why I'm asking these questions about balancing. And sometimes, I do think, oh, it could benefit us if they were separate entities.
\n\nLENORE: How have you all thought about that so far?
\n\nCHAD: For the most part, what we do is we run separate P&Ls for the different business lines or the different offerings, but it's all actually one entity as long as it doesn't cross country boundaries. We have a different entity for Europe.
\n\nLENORE: Got it. I asked because I'm curious because, at some point in the next couple of years, we'll probably do one more entity. And we're talking internally now about the moment that that will be the right thing to do, not yet. But good to hear that you're thinking about that as well.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. What was the part of your journey where...you mentioned you started to see this need. How did that need or seeing that need jump from that to I'm starting out; this is a real thing?
\n\nLENORE: It's blurry. The lines are blurry for me, particularly as the founder of Bright, because I have been working on effectively pulling the same threads as long as I can remember, even before Bright Ventures had a name and was an entity. And so, for as long as I can remember, I've been confounded, frustrated [laughs] by and working on the inequity of access to capital and to opportunity in entrepreneurship and in many other expressions of wealth creation.
\n\nI've also, for as long as I can remember, thought a lot about how people think, and how they relate to themselves, and how they relate to other people. And truly, I can remember experimenting with these ideas when I was really young, maybe even less than ten years old. I then remember experimenting with them in college and trying to create a major for myself because I was trying to understand the intersections of these questions.
\n\nOfficially, it was in 2014 that I launched Bright Ventures as the strategic advisory firm that I mentioned we came to market with. And that was because I had just come off of a really important career experience. I was living and working in Haiti on a program funded by the U.S. government to invest in and then provide support for entrepreneur organizations so like small businesses, social enterprises in Haiti. And I loved that work. It was super challenging, really rewarding, really interesting.
\n\nBut it also opened up in me this question about what entrepreneurs actually needed for support and how to support other investors and seeing potential where I saw it but that the markets might be missing it. And so, in 2014, I had enough of an idea about some of what was missing to get started. And to the point of the line or, like, okay, I'm going do this now, that's when that happened.
\n\nCHAD: I've had a whole bunch of guests on who talk about issues of inclusion, and particularly access or being excluded from funding and opportunity. And I'm curious, from your perspective, what kind of support do founders who are typically excluded or underrepresented most need, especially on day one?
\n\nLENORE: Well, one thing that I have found really fascinating about support for diverse entrepreneurs is that we often, as a whole, I'm speaking like we in a very big sense, tend to assume that there is a homogenous set of supports that are required. And this gets to that question about business models and how we make sure that we actually have at Bright Ventures a diversity of ways to help people.
\n\nWhat we've learned is that diverse entrepreneurs are not a particularly homogenous bunch. And there are a couple of things that seem to be consistent for certain groups that we have worked hard to build frameworks and models for. One of those things is mindset shift and personal leadership development. That was executive coaching for us. We developed a specialty in helping people who are systematically in out-of-power positions move into in-power positions, and that was through a series of coaching frameworks and leadership frameworks that we would deliver.
\n\nWe also learned that in order to do that durably and sustainably, you also had to go and coach and train the people who might be excluding those entrepreneurs. So we started to develop expertise in working directly with investors and helping them see the brilliance and maybe overlooked opportunity in diverse entrepreneurs. Those were two.
\n\nWe also have some skill-based programming where we help people inside large organizations and also brand new ones think about how to tactically build inclusion into the way that they run their day-to-day. And we finally, of course, have some capital programs where we invest directly in diverse entrepreneurs, which we know are vastly underrepresented in the capital markets.
\n\nCHAD: You use the word tactical, which I think is a really interesting one because a lot of times, especially on the show, we might talk about strategic things, which is different than tactical. So what does tactical inclusion mean to you?
\n\nLENORE: So it does start with the strategy. There has to be a business model that makes inclusion possible. Otherwise, we're kind of putting a Band-Aid on a really big open wound. But if there's a business model that makes it possible to take reasonable care of your employees and leave your customers better off than they were before they met you, then tactical inclusion is things like understanding how to delegate, how to give feedback, how to hold meetings in ways that actually bring out the best in your team, and how to collect product feedback that's truly representative of the full swath of people who not only use your product today but maybe are impacted by it throughout your value chain, or might use it tomorrow if you made some innovative choices in product design and development.
\n\nAnd so we say tactical, and we highlight that because what we have found is that much of the conversation about inclusion and certainly about diversity lives at this very theoretical level. It ends up being like an ideology, an aspiration, and we don't think that's sufficient. We think you have to actually make it how you behave. And so that tends to be where we focus both in our training and in our evaluation of inclusion in other companies.
\n\nCHAD: One of the problems that we sometimes see, and we see it in our clients, too, is not everybody responds to training in the same way, particularly if it's like, watch this video. Sometimes there will be not very much participation in that at all. Or even if you're just watching it, maybe you're not giving it your full attention. What does the training that you give actually look like?
\n\nLENORE: What you just said is exactly why we looked for other things to name what we do because training gets such a bad rap.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] Yeah.
\n\nLENORE: But what we learned about training is, I mean, this seems so obvious, Chad, but it has to actually be a skill that the person will obviously benefit from implementing immediately. So the first thing is like, do you need to and want to and recognize the need to learn this? We only go in with training when we can see that there's general consensus that it'll provide real value, business value, personal value, cultural value in the company.
\n\nThe second thing is that we recognize that people's attention spans are shorter on average. And so what we do with training is make it highly experiential. We'll introduce a concept and then show you a way to practice it right away, as in, within the same 20-minute span. We also then give folks an opportunity to practice live and get feedback. And we only apply training to real-life decisions that managers or leaders are thinking about right in that moment. So for us, again, you asked about this word tactical. It really comes down to how deeply we can tie the training to the person's motivation and their ability to apply it.
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\n\nCHAD: Another pressure I see in the startup world, in general, is this idea of we don't have time to stop. We've got to go. We've got to do this. We've got to do that. And taking the time to actually be really intentional about the kind of company and the kind of culture you're creating when you may be so focused on the business you're creating or the product you're creating sometimes goes by the wayside. Do you spend time trying to fix that problem? Or do you seek out people who are ready for what you have?
\n\nLENORE: We do an assessment in the beginning, at Bright Ventures, we called it culture audit, to determine the readiness of a culture for the depth of work that we can bring. And we have different ways of engaging depending on where the company is today. We also ask companies to self-identify. Like, how deep are you really interested in going? What kind of outcomes are important to you? And so there's a bit of we've built our frameworks in a modular way so that we can mix and match them to the environment, the strategy, the leadership, the goals of each of our clients.
\n\nCHAD: I'm curious, from an investor standpoint then, what makes pre-seed, seed companies potential when you have your investor hat on the right kind of companies for Bright Ventures?
\n\nLENORE: Yeah, we're really excited about companies that have an early signal of building inclusion into the fabric of the business model. And you can usually see that based on the way that the founder is building a team. It's not always...sometimes it's so few people that it's just not enough people to really assess diversity, as is sometimes the case. But you can tell how a founder thinks about divergent opinions, about different perspectives, and about the pipeline of people that they're seeking out to build a company with.
\n\nThe other way that we look for inclusion in the pre-seed and seed stage is really in the business model. And again, the word tactical, like, is this product or service...who is it designed to serve? And how is it designed to leave them? Are the questions that we tend to ask. And what we have found is that if you invest for inclusion, 85% of the time, that is overlapped with investing in diverse founders, but it's not 100% of the time. And again, our lens on that is that inclusion is a behavior, not an identity.
\n\nAnd so we're looking for any founder who's building inside of the paradigms I mentioned earlier, irrespective of demographics. And we particularly get excited; in the next ten years, we think there's a lot to be built in digital health and in FinTech, in the broadest sense, Web3 and Web2 FinTech for I think a lot of inclusive business models to emerge there. Also really excited about future of work as a place where I think inclusion will be a massive competitive advantage.
\n\nCHAD: So many companies are starting remote or are fully remote. Is the training that you give or the advice you're providing in terms of tactical inclusion does it differ for in-person versus remote companies?
\n\nLENORE: There's a consistent framework or set of questions that you can answer those questions in lots of ways. So if I ask the question like, how does your team get to know one another? The answer to that could be very different if your company sits together every day and actually you unwind on Fridays together. Versus if you're a fully remote company in multiple time zones, sometimes even multiple languages, the answer can be different, but we still know that the team feeling cohesive is a key ingredient for inclusion.
\n\nAnd so we're looking for how your company does it and that your company does it, not that it does it in a certain way. So we try to help our clients see their companies as systems in the way that we do so that they can see how is the fact that your team feels cohesive related to the way your team generates new ideas or brings new products to market? And then, we trust management and leadership to design the right specific ways to have that expressed in that company.
\n\nCHAD: What advice...someone who is just getting started and is just getting started out maybe has an idea, maybe it's a founding team, a team of co-founders. They're very early stage. Are there some things that you would recommend that they either do or avoid doing in order to lay a good groundwork for an inclusive team and company?
\n\nLENORE: Yeah, absolutely. The building block, like the fundamental input for inclusion, is listening, and so we have done a ton of resources on how to practice listening, how to know if you are listening. But you can't build a system that dynamically includes other groups without really understanding those groups. Listening is really important. Another thing is I find that it helps people build more inclusively when they go through the exercise of seeking out opinions that really differ from their own. And beyond, I think what people typically mean when they say playing devil's advocate, really trying to understand like, why does that work?
\n\nSo one of the things that founders who have built inclusively have really interrogated is who their target market is. And I have found that it's really useful to go through the exercise of making it incredibly narrow, like very exclusive, so you understand your assumptions around who your target market is. And then asking yourself, what does that group, that very narrowly defined group, have in common with other groups that I've crossed off the list? Looking through the lens of what unites diverse cohorts of people tends to net new insights about how to build an inclusive company.
\n\nCHAD: That's really interesting. Can you give an example?
\n\nLENORE: Let's say there's a haircare company, and the founder of a haircare company really wants to build and sell shampoo for people with blue hair. Exciting, great. This founder has quit their job to build this blue haircare shampoo company. When we meet that founder, we ask them to, again, narrowly define a target market, people with blue hair, and then go through the inclusion assumption exercise of saying, well, what is it about those people with blue hair that's going to make them come and buy your product time and time and time and time again? And what is so motivating about this problem that you are willing to quit your job to build this company?
\n\nWhat we have often found is that the founder gets to the place of saying, "Oh, it's actually not that it's blue hair. It's that the person is really proud of the color of their hair. It's a pride in hair color that has me buy this particular shampoo. And it is the sense of community and affinity with other people who have made non-traditional hair choices." Cool. That's a way bigger target market than just people with blue hair. How do we build that company?
\n\nAnd so that's the pivot from we want a narrowly defined target market because it shows you what you already know. And then challenge your assumptions by digging even deeper and seeing how actually people with blue hair and people with orange hair might have something really interesting in common that we may have overlooked historically and might have left a lot of value on the table.
\n\nCHAD: I think that's a great example. It's also an example for me of the kind of benefit that having someone external can bring to you, whether it be a coach or a mentor and even someone like yourself who will be brought in to explicitly do it. Sometimes, especially founders, have a hard time really thinking critically about what it is they're trying to build. And having an outside perspective, in my experience, can be really helpful.
\n\nLENORE: Yeah, I if I could give one gift to every founder, it would be to have a coach. I think so many founders are brilliant at their business. And it is so helpful to have an external perspective because we all have blind spots. And having a person looking for your blind spots, supporting you in seeing them, and then practicing living in them, so they're no longer blind spots is, I think, a really transformative experience personally and professionally.
\n\nCHAD: You've been growing Bright for several years now. As you look ahead into the future for yourself and for the company, what are some of the things that you're excited about?
\n\nLENORE: I am so incredibly proud of the team that has been building Bright with me. And we have some additions to that team coming that I'm over the moon about, so I'm really excited about that. And by extension, we're growing the Bright Ventures community. So we used to do almost exclusively in-person work in New York City, where I live. But like many groups, through the pandemic, we started to experiment with digital formats for delivering some of our frameworks, and programs, and insights. And we found some things that really resonate.
\n\nSo we're now expanding the Bright Ventures community to allow many, many, many more people, even globally, to build an inclusive economy with us. The community has well-being events, which is a critical part of building inclusively. If we're not well, it's hard to include others. It also will have skill-based trainings like some of the ones we described.
\n\nAnd we think a huge opportunity is to help people build connections across networks that they wouldn't necessarily have access to otherwise, so that I'm really proud of, really looking forward to. And then finally, always excited to see the portfolio founders that we back grow and fully express their ideas and bring their, in some cases, finally first bring their companies to market publicly.
\n\nCHAD: Is that community something that people listening might be able to sign up for now?
\n\nLENORE: Absolutely. I would say if you're even inclusion curious, like, you just want to understand what inclusion actually means and why it's not a boring thing that you have to sit through a mandated training on, or why even if you're already in the streets marching you should get involved in understanding how inclusion shows up in tech, we would love to have you. And it's a low or even no commitment experience. Drop in, see what resonates, provide us some feedback. We'd love to have folks participate.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, we'll link it in the show notes. But can you tell people where folks go to sign up?
\n\nLENORE: Yeah, we'll link a waitlist. We're inviting people in in segments to make sure that everyone has a really good experience. So we will provide that waitlist link. I actually don't know the URL.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] That's fair enough. Fair enough. Well, on that note, if folks want to get in touch with you, or follow along, or find out more about Bright, where are all the different places that they can do that?
\n\nLENORE: The best place is LinkedIn. My name Lenore Champagne Beirne is really easy to find. I'm the only one. And I'd love to have you all connect there. You can also submit...if you have a startup idea or an existing company that you're interested in bringing into Bright Venture's view, please feel free to submit that on our website, which is www.brightventures.io. And you could technically find me on Twitter, but I won't really be there. [laughs] So I hesitate to suggest it as a place to communicate with me.
\n\nCHAD: We're going to link all of that in the show notes as well, along with a complete transcript for this episode. You can find all of that at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can technically find me on Twitter as well at @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks so much for listening.
\n\nLenore, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.
\n\nLENORE: So great to be here. Thanks again, Chad, for the questions.
\n\nCHAD: And see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Lenore Champagne Beirne.
Sponsored By:
Sarabeth Jaffe is CTO and Co-Founder at HelloPrenup, the digital prenup platform designed to get couples on the same page.
\n\nChad talks with Sarabeth about dogfooding her own product, completely starting over from a technical perspective using Bubble, a low-code/no-code platform, and appearing on the ABC hit series Shark Tank.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Sarabeth Jaffe, CTO, and Co-Founder at HelloPrenup, the digital prenup platform designed to get couples on the same page. Sarabeth, thank you so much for joining me.
\n\nSARABETH: Thank you so much for having me.
\n\nCHAD: I can't say that I was aware of your...or that I wanted to think about prenups and seeking out a product around prenups. But it's super interesting to me. And I'm sure that that's part of both the challenge and opportunity with HelloPrenup. So, tell us a little bit about the product.
\n\nSARABETH: So, as you mentioned, HelloPrenup is really the first of its kind. It's a digital platform that allows couples to create a prenuptial agreement that they're both happy with completely online and for a fraction of the cost of going to an attorney. So why is that interesting for folks these days? Really it's because couples are talking about their finances a lot more before they go into marriage. People are getting married later in life, so they have more assets to protect, or in many couples' cases, they have a lot of existing student loans or other liabilities that they can actually protect their partner from.
\n\nSo I think a lot of couples are becoming more open to prenuptial agreements as a way to kind of start off their marriage with a clean slate. And I can actually speak to our customers because I actually built HelloPrenup after I got engaged. And I was looking into getting a prenup. My fiancé and I we've been together for over seven years; we've known each other for over ten years. And we've always been really transparent about everything and especially our finances.
\n\nAnd I love being financially savvy, looking at my investment portfolio, and being really frugal and everything. So to me, getting a prenup was always just the smart move. Being kind of a realistic person whose parents are actually divorced now, I view marriage as a partnership that, if it's working, when it's working, that's amazing. But if things don't work out, I think there should be a different path that you're able to take seamlessly.
\n\nSo when we did get engaged, I started looking into how to get a prenup, and it was a really confusing process. If you want to get a prenup without using HelloPrenup, you have to contact a divorce attorney before you're even married, which kind of starts the precedent of your marital journey off kind of a little weird. And also, hiring a divorce attorney for your prenup can cost a lot of money. The average cost is like $300 an hour. So it kind of depends on how complex your prenup is.
\n\nBut if you're planning your wedding, buying an engagement ring, maybe trying to buy a house soon, you're going to put a prenup on the back burner because of the costs, even though it's a really important financial planning tool. So that's why I came up with the idea. I'm a software engineer. This is something that I think I could build is a platform for couples who want to get a prenup done really conveniently and for a fraction of the cost.
\n\nSo I started working on HelloPrenup on my own in February of 2021, so a little bit over a year ago. And of course, I quickly found out that I don't know all the laws required, [chuckles] and I don't know how to write a good prenup contract. So I need either a legal advisor or an attorney to really help me figure these things out, especially because the law per state actually is different.
\n\nCHAD: Just so I understand the timeline, did you start it before you got married? Or did you end up doing a prenup through an attorney for yourself?
\n\nSARABETH: Ah, yes. So actually, we're getting married this Saturday.
\n\nCHAD: Wow. Okay. Congratulations.
\n\nSARABETH: Thank you so much. And we are HelloPrenup users.
\n\nCHAD: Okay, wow.
\n\nSARABETH: So we did our prenup with our platform.
\n\nCHAD: So you managed to get the product done before you got married so that you could use it?
\n\nSARABETH: Yes, yes. I wasn't going to get married without the prenup and going through an attorney. [laughs] I gotta...what is the expression? Like, reap what you sow or something like that.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, or eat your own dog food is another one.
\n\nSARABETH: Yes. Dogfooding our own product has been amazingly beneficial for our team. So that's kind of where I left off in our story so far. I needed to find an attorney.
\n\nCHAD: I'm curious, you know, I'm a software developer too. I think we all have ideas. How did it become just from an idea to a thing you were really going to do? Where was that sort of switch? When did that switch get flipped?
\n\nSARABETH: When I came up with the idea for a digital prenup platform, I was actually unemployed. So this was kind of in the middle of the pandemic. I was previously working at a really awesome startup based in Seattle, Washington. But unfortunately, I was actually going through a lot of depression, and I felt really disconnected from my work. So I ended up quitting that job in November. So I took about three months off to recenter myself and figure out what I wanted to do next.
\n\nSo when I thought of the idea for a prenup platform, I had the mental capacity to dig into the problem. And when I figured that it would probably be a profitable business, that's when I started to work on it full time. And I didn't have another job, so I was able to jump into it.
\n\nCHAD: Okay, so you then needed to find an attorney. You realized that was something you lacked.
\n\nSARABETH: Yeah, so I started doing some Googling while I was deciding whether this was something I definitely wanted to commit to, to see if there were competitor platforms. And I actually found HelloPrenup at that time. Of course, I wasn't involved with it. And so my co-founder now her name is Julia Rodgers Esquire. So she is a divorce attorney based out of Massachusetts. She actually had been building this product, which was completely aligned with my envisioning of what I was going to build. But of course, she had the legal background of it.
\n\nSo I found her platform, and I noticed when I tried to sign up for the platform that the system was under maintenance. So I was like, huh, maybe they need technical help. So I actually ended up cold emailing her to see whether she needed any software help with the hopes that we could team up. And the next day, we just hopped on a Zoom. It's interesting talking to someone who you've never met before about possibly teaming up on something or potentially being a competitor to them. I made it very clear that I would much rather team up with her rather than try to figure this out on my own.
\n\nCHAD: That sort of sounds like a threat.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nSARABETH: Oh my God.
\n\nCHAD: I'd much rather team up with you than have to do this on my own. [laughs]
\n\nSARABETH: Well, I really respected what she had built at that point. So she had put a lot of time into actually writing a lot of content and blogs around prenuptial agreements. So she had a really good base for the business. But it was really the software that she was running into issues with. So she had been struggling and working with overseas developers. So as an attorney, she didn't have a lot of experience project managing a software project like that. And especially with contract developers, you can't say, "I want this to be built in a sustainable, scalable fashion."
\n\nSo there were a lot of bugs with the platform. The way I saw it was like, hey, she kind of has this MVP. And she's an attorney, so I think we would make an amazing team. I was also really excited at the prospect of being able to work with another woman entrepreneur. And we hit it off really quickly on our Zoom call. And yeah, so we've been working together since about March of 2021.
\n\nCHAD: Did you end up keeping what she already had from a technical perspective, or did you start over?
\n\nSARABETH: We completely started over. I tried to salvage the codebase that they had used. It was like Angular, which I actually despise Angular framework in general. I tried my best to clean it up, but they had no tests. They had a bunch of copy and pasted code. It was just kind of a mess. So that's when I really decided that Bubble would be a great option for us.
\n\nCHAD: Well, for those who don't know, Bubble is like a low-code/no-code platform.
\n\nSARABETH: Yes. So it's called Bubble.io. It is, as Chad just said, you know, it's a low-code platform which allows you to actually build full-stack web applications. So unlike other website builders like Squarespace or Wix, you actually have a database or a back-end component to your application. And of course, for the majority of applications, that's really a requirement to build something actually useful for people.
\n\nSo I'd been playing around with Bubble.io before we scrapped the codebase. And it was a good starting point because I'm still currently the only full-time developer on our team. And because we are using a low-code platform, we're able to move a lot faster with a lot of our feature development because there are a lot of things that had been done for us. So there are a lot of drag and drop features that we can leverage via different plugins.
\n\nCHAD: It's an interesting choice to me, not because I don't think it makes sense, but I think a lot of developers...you are a developer; you know how to code.
\n\nSARABETH: [chuckles]
\n\nCHAD: And I think a lot of developers, when faced with that choice, can't resist writing custom software.
\n\nSARABETH: Yeah. [chuckles] You know, I've always been torn between the development and the product world. And for a while, that was really a struggle for me deciding whether I wanted to be a product manager or a software engineer. So I settled on being a product-driven software engineer. So to me, the use case of like, I could write the traditional code, but it'll be a lot slower, or I could build the product a lot faster by using this tooling. That's where I land most of the time, like, the more time-efficient way to do things.
\n\nCHAD: From deciding to work together and starting to work together to okay, I'm going to rewrite this in Bubble; what point were you back online with the new version? How long did that take?
\n\nSARABETH: Yeah, so that took us about three months to get it relaunched, and so I was pretty happy with that. I mean, of course, there's still a ton of work that we're doing to build out the product, but to really get it back up and running and also in a more scalable way so that we actually can provide prenups across multiple different states now. So it's a lot more flexible in the way that it was built. So it took about three months to get it relaunched.
\n\nCHAD: So at what point then did you go on Shark Tank? [laughs]
\n\nSARABETH: So [chuckles] there were a lot of variables in play. And so, I was really thankful that we chose to use Bubble because the speed at which I needed to develop this was even more reduced. So we started talking to producers pretty quickly after we decided to team up together. It's a really unusual entrepreneur journey, I would say. I knew that it would make a good story because prenups are kind of taboo, as you mentioned. Television loves something a little spicy, a little bit dramatic.
\n\nSo we started talking to producers, I want to say, in June or July, maybe even in May. And at that point, we hadn't relaunched the product. So we were really just pitching the idea. And we were pitching ourselves as founders to the producers and the exciting concept of how will the American public perceive a product that is a little bit taboo talking about prenuptial agreements before you get married?
\n\nIf you're familiar with Shark Tank, you probably see that they have a lot of wedding-related companies that go on. But we were kind of flipping the script on that. So while I was rewriting the entire software, we were also going through the auditioning process of Shark Tank.
\n\nCHAD: I can imagine that's pretty intense.
\n\nSARABETH: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: I think the closest thing I can think of is when you enter into an accelerator or something like that. You might be in it for three months. You're going to have demo day at the end. But with that, you're presenting to a group of people. It's not broadcast on national television.
\n\nSARABETH: Yes. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: It's probably a little bit of a different thing, and there are no producers involved, that kind of thing.
\n\nSARABETH: Yeah, yeah, exactly. By the time we had gotten on the set of Shark Tank to pitch our products, we'd only really been relaunched for about a month and a half. [laughs] So we were flying...I'm so bad at expressions.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nSARABETH: We were pitching...
\n\nCHAD: By the seat of your pants.
\n\nSARABETH: Yes, that one. Thank you so much. [laughter] So we were really pitching the potential of our product. And we were just so ecstatic to be there.
\n\nMid-Roll Ad:
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\n\nIn just a few weeks, thoughtbot’s Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We’ll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts.
\n\nMaximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprint
\n\nCHAD: When you went on Shark Tank, how much of what you said and those kinds of things was all you, or how much is it put together for the show?
\n\nSARABETH: Really, the only thing that is heavily vetted by producers is your pitch. So when you walk into the tank, and you give your 30-second to 2-minute spiel that's a bit more theatrical, you practice that over and over and over again. And it was really a fascinating experience. Because as a fellow software engineer, you know we're kind of more chill people, [laughs] more realistic. But they kept saying, "Bring more energy to it. Do big movements, maybe even do a dance or something." [laughter] I'm kind of living this double life where I'm writing software, and then I'm --
\n\nCHAD: In between rehearsals, you're opening your laptop and making another thing happen on the app, I'm sure.
\n\nSARABETH: Exactly. It's like, oh, okay, we have pitch practice tonight, and now I'm going to work on this core feature. Without it, we literally don't have a product. So the producers are very involved in your initial pitch. But then when you jump into the Q&A, when the Sharks start asking you questions, that's all you.
\n\nCHAD: That's really cool. So are you happy that you went on Shark Tank?
\n\nSARABETH: Yes, I'm so happy that we went on. I've always been a Shark Tank fan. I think it's been on for over ten years. Shark Tank has been something that's kind of kept me interested in being an entrepreneur. When I started learning how to code, I knew that I always wanted to start a business. And just seeing the number of ideas and the variety of businesses that people are able to build and putting that on a show is just a fascinating concept. So I was really happy to go on the show. And, of course, the impact on our business has been tremendous.
\n\nReally, it changed the trajectory of our business. We gain most of our customers through organic search. So most of our customers come in through Google saying like, how do I get an online prenup? By getting on national television, we are really thankful that news stations were now interested in talking to us. So by linking to our website, that helped boost our search engine optimization rankings. And so now we're actually a profitable business due to Shark Tank.
\n\nCHAD: That's awesome. So is the tech team still just you?
\n\nSARABETH: The tech team is me. And I have started working with another Bubble developer on a contract basis. But calling out to any software engineers or low-code developers, if you're interested in joining a legal tech company that's growing a lot, feel free to reach out to me. So I really do need to be hiring another developer. At this point, I am really the main developer working on things for a variety of reasons.
\n\nThe first reason is that Bubble, while it is very quick to develop a product on your own from a technical perspective, it is lacking in features when it comes to collaboration with other developers. So with traditional code, you'll do code reviews on GitHub, and you'll just do like a diff. But the branching and the version control is definitely a little bit lacking.
\n\nSo I'm trying to wait out the Bubble team. They have some stuff coming down the pipeline that will make it easier to do collaboration. But for that reason, it is a little bit easier as an entrepreneur using a low-code platform to be the sole developer because you kind of know exactly how everything works.
\n\nAnd then also, developers are really expensive. So we are actually a completely self-funded company at this point. So we're bootstrapped. We haven't actually accepted any investment at this point. We're a really conservative team. If we hire a developer, we want to make sure that we're able to provide them with a competitive salary and competitive package. And we're able to do that now. It's just a matter of finding the right person, which is actually a really interesting space because low-code developers are still on the up and up right now.
\n\nCHAD: I know you can't see the future. But do you foresee a point where either Bubble doesn't take you where you want to go, or you need to start augmenting it in some way?
\n\nSARABETH: I would like to push Bubble as far as I can. I think now that Bubble is getting a lot more recognition...and they just got another round of funding that was pretty substantial. I think that they're going to be improving a lot of things, especially when it comes to, like I mentioned, collaborating with other developers on the platform and performance. A lot of pushback that people give with low-code platforms is like, oh, the page won't load as quickly as if I wrote it with pure React or something like that. So I want to try and stay on the platform as long as possible.
\n\nIf we really continue to grow, I would be willing to move back to traditional code. And we'd actually be set up for success in that way because we would have a fully functioning product, and half of development is figuring out what feature to build next. So we'd kind of say, all right, here's how it works. And then, while we're kind of maintaining our Bubble application, we can have a development team build it within our own platform. Does that make sense?
\n\nCHAD: It does. And I think with Bubble, it doesn't need to be all or nothing, right?
\n\nSARABETH: Mm-hmm.
\n\nCHAD: You can use APIs. Or you can basically extend it with custom code if you really needed to using webhooks and that kind of thing, right?
\n\nSARABETH: Exactly. And that's the way that we've done it. So actually, the contract generation is written in Node.js JavaScript. And the reason I did that is because it's easier to process data in a sequential order with traditional code versus Bubble. And you can also hook into other APIs, like for us, we do a conversion of the HTML of the contract into a Word doc.
\n\nSo we're able to call into a conversion API and then save it on AWS with traditional code, and you can do all that with Bubble. But it's a little bit more straightforward when you know what you're doing with just like JavaScript; you know a few lines here and there. Does that make sense?
\n\nCHAD: It does, yeah. I'll be super interested to see how far you're able to push it and what those things you need to do outside of Bubble are.
\n\nSARABETH: Yeah, I'm really excited to try to push Bubble as an option for entrepreneurs. We were actually the first low-code platform to be shown on Shark Tank. So every Bubble developer on Twitter was really excited about it.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nSARABETH: So I think it's a really interesting spot to be in right now.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, from a technology perspective, I think that that's one thing we've talked about. And you addressed the other thing that sometimes people say is a promise. Like, it is a commercial platform. It's not an open-source platform, and you're building entirely on top of it. And so that presents a certain amount of risk that like, they might go out of business. You know, they're a VC-backed company, and maybe they'll go out of business. And then where would you be? The fact that they've just raised a significant additional round of funding mitigates that somewhat, but it's still a concern, right?
\n\nSARABETH: Yeah, it's definitely a concern. And it's something that, as a software engineer, it's terrifying to know that you're relying on someone else for your livelihood and now the livelihood of multiple people on our team. So it is really scary. You cannot export your code from Bubble. But I believe they have said that if for some reason they go out of business, they will allow you to do that.
\n\nI'm sure whatever code you export from it is not going to be very pretty to look at. So it probably makes sense to write it from scratch. But I think at this point, I'm really happy with where we're at. I like remaining a really lean team. And using different tools in simple ways and trying to keep our product as simple as possible has really helped us grow.
\n\nCHAD: What's next for HelloPrenup? Where are you setting your sights on? What's keeping you up at night now?
\n\nSARABETH: Ooh, so many things. We do have an exciting investor coming on. I can't say exactly who, but they were really involved in building one of the largest legal tech platforms out there today. So we're really excited to be partnering with them and be building out our network across all 50 states. Right now, we're actually in, I believe, 32 states. You can use our platform to create your prenuptial agreement. And so, we're excited to be starting to onboard attorneys to the platform. So that's one of the things.
\n\nAnother thing that's on our radar is keeping up with, you know, it's hard to say the trends of what's going on with Web3. But we do have some things that are related to Web3 that we'll be tackling in the next probably a year or a couple of years when it comes to financial data. Yeah, so those things are kind of on our radar of our product.
\n\nAnd then, on the near term, we are doing a lot of work to try and normalize the entire conversation around prenuptial agreements. We partnered with The Knot, which is one of the largest online wedding registry websites. And we've been writing a lot of blogs on their website that talk about the educational side of prenups. And we're actually going to be launching gift cards.
\n\nCHAD: [chuckles]
\n\nSARABETH: So you can list a prenuptial agreement on your wedding registry, and people can help support it. So there are a lot of initiatives that we're going to be doing on the product development side and then also kind of on the marketing education side of the business. As we start to grow, I'm trying to pull my attention away from those things. But sometimes, it's really hard because some parts of the business that aren't technical are fun to get involved in. And I'm sure you run into that or when you were scaling thoughtbot getting distracted by other parts of the business because they were just interesting. But there's a lot going on right now.
\n\nCHAD: That's exciting. You mentioned earlier that you hadn't taken investors yet. And so is it about that scale that's causing you to take one on now, or what's going on there?
\n\nSARABETH: So we're profitable. We don't need an investor, which is we're so thankful for that. So it's really a strategic partnership for us.
\n\nCHAD: Well, that's really cool. I'm excited to hear everything you have going on. And I really wish you luck in everything that you're doing.
\n\nSARABETH: Thank you so much.
\n\nCHAD: So if folks want to find out more about HelloPrenup, follow along with you, get in touch with you; where are all the best places for them to do that?
\n\nSARABETH: You can check us out on helloprenup.com. And we're on Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn. Just tweet at us @HelloPrenup, and one of us will respond. It'll probably be myself or Julia. So you're able to get into contact with us if you have any questions. And of course, if you are a developer who is looking to join a really fun, women-led legal tech company, hit me up.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. You can subscribe to the show and find notes with links for everything that Sarabeth just mentioned, along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments for me, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThank you so much for joining me, Sarabeth. I really appreciate it.
\n\nSARABETH: Thank you so much.
\n\nCHAD: And thank you for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Sarabeth Jaffe.
Sponsored By:
Victoria Guido is the new Associate Director of Business Development and DevOps Strategy at thoughtbot, and is joining Chad as co-host of the show!
\n\nChad talks with Victoria about getting involved in DevOps work, transitioning to agile, moving away from her old community which was based on geography, and tips for people onboarding into a new role.
\n\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Victoria Guido, the new Associate Director of Business Development and DevOps Strategy at thoughtbot, and wait for it, the new co-host of this very podcast with me. Victoria, thank you for joining me on the show for this episode, for joining me at thoughtbot, and now for joining me as the co-host of the show.
\n\nVICTORIA: You're welcome. Thank you for having me.
\n\nCHAD: You do all of those things, right? [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, yes.
\n\nCHAD: So I'm hoping that we can introduce folks to you. I'm excited to have you on the show and for the audience to get to know you. Let's start with your role at thoughtbot. I think maybe you have the esteem of having the longest title at thoughtbot right now. [chuckles]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, I love it, Associate Director of Business Development and DevOps Strategy. So I'm not only doing business development but also planning our DevOps services and how we do that at thoughtbot.
\n\nCHAD: And you're on the Mission Control team, which for folks who follow along or want to go back and listen, we had Joe, who is the CTO of thoughtbot and the interim Managing Director of the Mission Control team, which is our new DevOps team and Site Reliability Engineering team, that's Episode 403. So I will link that in the show notes, but it's at giantrobots.fm/403 as well. So, how did you get involved in DevOps work?
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. So I first went to my first DevOps meetup in 2017 when I was living in Washington, D.C. I had been working in IT and operations for about 5 or 10 years at that point. And I went to a DevOps meetup and met some really nice guys, and they were very...what I liked about it was that it was both the technology side and about culture.
\n\nAnd it was about how do we break down silos between different groups, and then bring in the automation and start to do next level type of operations? So that's how I started to get involved. And I started attending the meetups regularly and then became an organizer for the meetup and for the conference series. And that's when I became like the biggest DevOps person in D.C. probably. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Did you end up moving from the general IT work that you were doing into more DevOps focus work along that way?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, at that time, that was when as a federal contractor, you know, agile had been around for quite a while. And I had been through several agile transformations with large program teams. And now DevOps was becoming more of a thing. And the project that I was on at the time was managing a large set of federal websites and was managing the build pipeline and process for how they got their code into the public's view and how they managed the servers and all the other back-end services that supported those applications.
\n\nSo DevOps was both top of mind for the government. [laughs] They were trying to now be able to deploy as frequently as they were able to build new features. And it was part of the work that I was performing as well.
\n\nCHAD: You mentioned you were doing government work at the time. What was that like? What kind of work was it?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, actually, my first job after college, my first full-time job, was at Citizenship and Immigration Services. And it was about a 200-person program. Some of the applications were actually written in Siebel. And so we had just a variety of different applications from Siebel to Java. And they had just transitioned to agile. And so that was taking a team that was managing Oracle releases and bringing them into a kanban style workflow and figuring out how do we be agile when we're in maintenance mode, and bring the team along with me?
\n\nAnd I worked my way up from a process engineer to project management and did a little bit of testing and a little bit of development in between. So it was interesting because it was a major transformational shift for that agency and still getting steeped in ITIL processes and how to do unit testing, acceptance testing, and all of those other kinds of critical processes for building applications. It was good.
\n\nCHAD: What does transitioning to agile mean when you talk about groups that size? You're talking about unit tests and that kind of thing, which can be part of agile, but I assume isn't the only aspect of it.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I think for that group, it was about changing the way we planned and managed work and figuring out what processes could we automate. So is there testing that we could automate or test data creation we could automate? And I think there are some concepts from agile that helped our planning, for example, making a physical board to manage which environments has which versions of Oracle in it.
\n\nThose types of concepts of just kind of stepping away from your computer and getting together with the group every day to talk about what issues they're running into that's kind of what it was. But there was still, of course, documentation requirements, big documentation requirements, and everything like that. So it was an interesting sort of half transition or tailored approach to doing agile with that type of team.
\n\nCHAD: And then from there, you moved into ongoing sort of consulting companies that worked with government.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, I worked for two pseudo-government financial organizations, Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation and Fannie Mae, so my next two roles as a project manager and system engineer. So at Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation, I got exposed to more system engineering and security engineering, working with their mobile device management policy, and actually designing the mobile device management to match DISA STIG. Sorry, I'm doing a lot of acronyms out here. [laughter] You can stop me if I use too many.
\n\nBut that was really interesting and also upgrading their system, they were using to manage change for the organization so their ITIL services management tool. Going through the process of upgrading that project and coordinating across all the teams who delivered software at the agency was fascinating.
\n\nI went on to Fannie Mae, where I started to really build knowledge bases and start to build out actually using SharePoint at the time. [laughs] But figuring out ways to share knowledge across large teams and other large production support services teams, and how to get them collaborating so they could improve themselves and do continuous improvement, and learn what other groups are doing.
\n\nCHAD: That's one area where I honestly don't have a ton of experience. Most of my professional experience has been at thoughtbot or other smaller organizations. How do you manage that, or what are the big differences between large organizations like that and something at the thoughtbot size or smaller?
\n\nVICTORIA: The biggest difference between a large organization like that and a small one like thoughtbot would be I think of how change gets generated and started. In a small organization with a culture like thoughtbot, change can come from anywhere and very quickly have permeated the entire organization. With a larger organization, you can have leaders try to force change from the top down.
\n\nAnd you'll see individuals some will be 100% on board. Others will figure out how to qualify what they're already doing to fit that change. And some others will just be full-on resistance and just kind of be waiting for the next leader to come in so they can switch into whatever they were doing before.
\n\nAnd there is also that organic change that comes from individuals and then pushes up to the rest of the organization. But I think it's much harder, and you have to have a lot of will and a lot of support from leadership that they're accepting of those types of ideas.
\n\nCHAD: I think it's the nature of groups and companies to want to grow. Do you think that there's any way to preserve that smaller culture as an organization grows?
\n\nVICTORIA: I think so. I think it's possible if you integrate it into part of your core values, and that becomes a part of how you interview, and how you do performance reviews, and how you build your culture as a company. I think you can build it on those tenets.
\n\nI think in some organizations, there's usually some form of acquisition where you acquired a team from a contracting company, or you acquired a team of federal employees from another agency when you restructured. So it makes it a little bit more challenging to really integrate that part of your culture into every step, but it is possible. And you also have to accept that not everyone might be on board all the time.
\n\nCHAD: Well, I think that that is probably the biggest challenge is even in a larger organization, if you foster a culture where change can happen from anywhere, it's not necessarily top down. Transferring that knowledge or that practice throughout the whole organization is really difficult. Like if it's thousands or tens of thousands of people, adopting a change seems really difficult to me. So even if things are really organic coming from all levels of the company, you could end up in a scenario where everything is being done differently, everywhere.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, and I think, too, when you're in a larger organization, there's more context for every unit. And so you can think this is a change we're going to do. This is going to be great. But then, once you actually see the way that people work, that change might not actually help them that much. And so I think that if people have autonomy to be able to make changes that make sense for them, that's more likely to be effective than if we tried to push change from the top down necessarily. And being in my position as a contractor, I really don't have authority to make a lot of changes.
\n\nCHAD: [chuckles] Right.
\n\nVICTORIA: So either I have someone backing me up, or I really get to know the individuals that I'm working with. And I can demonstrate and show them that there's a better way of doing it and do it in a way that gives it to them as an option so they can choose to adopt it. And that's usually the only option I have to give anyway, [laughs] so that's been effective because people do want to be better at their jobs or be more efficient. But a lot of times, I think the changes aren't really addressing their problem, and so it can be easy to push it aside.
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\n\nCHAD: So you mentioned you got involved in DevOps DC and then as an organizer. I know you also started to work with Women Who Code. Why did you get involved in the organization of DevOps DC and that kind of thing? Was there a business or a personal reason to do it?
\n\nVICTORIA: It was both. It made sense from a networking perspective, both in potential customers or clients and in recruiting. But also, I think it made sense. For me personally, the people who were showing up regularly were my kind of people, you know, [laughs] people who cared about blameless post mortems or feeling open or making me feel welcome when I came to the meetup. That was a big reason why I got involved. And it just made sense for me, too, because I was coming from an operations background. I'm like, oh, DevOps, this is the way that we're supposed to be doing things. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: So you were really involved in the D.C. community and had been there for a while. But you recently moved to California.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, yeah. I've been in San Diego for almost two years, about a year and a half at this point. Yeah, big moves.
\n\nCHAD: What was it like to move away from your old community, which was so based on geography?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, it was sad, but it was interesting how it worked out with the pandemic because when we found out we were going to move, was when everything shut down, and we went slowly remote anyways. And so I continued running DevOps DC remotely and some Women Who Code events for about a year afterwards.
\n\nAnd then, when I decided it was time to really shift away and actually be more present in the San Diego community, especially when the other meetups started going back to in-person meetups, that was actually really hard to say goodbye and to say that I wasn't going to be organizing anymore. And I really miss all my past organizers and people who would come to the events.
\n\nCHAD: Has it been difficult to form a new community locally given the pandemic?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I've looked at quite a few meetups. There are a number of good meetups here in San Diego, and LA has a great scene as well. But yeah, it's been hard for myself to just get out of the house and to find similar groups that have those same interests. That's been a challenge, but I think it's coming along, and we'll get there.
\n\nCHAD: And along the way, you joined thoughtbot. I'm curious, what were the things, in particular, that attracted you to the role or to thoughtbot? What were you looking for personally?
\n\nVICTORIA: Personally, I knew that business development was an area that fit my skill sets really well, and the things I like to do like going out, and networking, and talking to people. And this role, in particular with the DevOps strategy in there, really excited me because I could use all of these hours and hours I've spent in meetups and conferences to good use to help develop services within thoughtbot that are really tailored to our specific user groups and needs. And to work with highly skilled, highly regarded engineers and developers on developing these products I thought was really exciting.
\n\nAnd then thoughtbot as a company, in particular, I found the interview process to be really well thought out with, for example, I knew that it was going to be a long interview process. So there is a compensation that you can receive just for interviewing. And I thought that was something that was really nice [laughs] and also just showed that approach of being aware of the candidate's experience and wanting to have that be a good experience and a worthwhile endeavor. So that was part of why I liked thoughtbot.
\n\nOpen source was a big consideration for me. I wanted to work somewhere where they were passionate about giving back to the open-source community, and all that together brought me here and made the most sense.
\n\nCHAD: Cool. Do you have any tips for people onboarding into a new role? Or maybe even if it's not tips, was there something that you did intentionally when day one or day minus one you're thinking about, okay, tomorrow I'm getting started? How did you approach that?
\n\nVICTORIA: One of the biggest advice I give to people who are starting a new role is to schedule one on ones with members of your team and get to know them as individuals, especially in remote environment since you don't necessarily have a chance to go out for coffee, [chuckles] just to have a quick one on one and get to know them a little bit more in your role and figure out where you can start to add value. I think that's a great way to start. And then to just develop your list of ideas for where you think you can add value, some outstanding questions for where you need to understand more.
\n\nAnd I think the other advice would be to engage in the social channels. I think my first day, I posted a picture of my dog on the dogs' channel. [laughter] And just like, let your personality show a little bit. And don't be afraid to post in a large channel, especially if you know the culture of the company is open to that kind of collaboration. And then people start to see your face and get to know you a little bit more, and you feel more connected to your company.
\n\nCHAD: Were you nervous when you joined on your first day?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, a little nervous. And I'm also aware of just having been a federal contractor that some people might hear that and have an impression of my style or the way I like to work. And so I'm a little aware of like, oh, I definitely don't want to wear a blazer. I don't want to look too corporate.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nCHAD: That's funny. Yeah, one time, we were meeting in sales meetings with clients, and we wanted to establish that we were not a typical consulting company. And so intentionally going to a sales meeting wearing a t-shirt or something like that was a statement, like an intentional choice we were making to subtly communicate what kind of company we are. So that resonates with me.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: So now that you've been here for...oh, geez, how long has it been? [chuckles]
\n\nVICTORIA: It's almost a month.
\n\nCHAD: Almost a month. Was there anything that surprised you?
\n\nVICTORIA: There have been a few small things that I'm probably way too happy about. One is just the actual page count in contracts is just way lower than what I've had to work with in the past, [laughter] which is very exciting for me. I was really happy to see...I went to go add a custom Slack emoji, and there were already like 2,000-plus Slack emojis. So that was really exciting for me. [laughs]
\n\nSurprising...the part that's interesting is, in some cases, as a consulting company, it is the same problems that we're trying to solve for. So, in that case, it's almost expected, but it's interesting. So to see some things like what thoughtbot has, a playbook in GitHub, and anyone can edit it. And that was something I was really trying to work on at my last position.
\n\nAnd you're 5 or 10 years down the road where you've solved some of the issues where you have a nice editor so that people can go in and edit pages without using Markdown or pull requests. But it's still difficult. So it's interesting to see that some challenges have progressed a little and have still some different issues.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, it's always interesting to get a new person's perspective with fresh eyes. I've been doing this for a long time, and joining a new company remotely is different. Back when you were joining a Boston team or a San Francisco team, you could go into the office. And your first day, you'd be sitting right next to somebody and going to lunch with them. And that kind of thing is clearly very different now than it was then.
\n\nVICTORIA: Right. And I did get to see everyone at Summit for one night. So that's exciting.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that was exciting. So we happened to...I think the week before you started, or maybe two weeks before you started, we were having our company-wide in-person get-together in the United Kingdom. And you happened to be going to Germany for a wedding, right?
\n\nVICTORIA: Mm-hmm.
\n\nCHAD: So we tacked on to that trip and stole you for a day, and we were able to see each other in person. That was exciting.
\n\nVICTORIA: It was really cool. Although I had a lot of FOMO once, I saw the next day was like D&D and a bunch of games and hanging out. I was like, wow, I'd really like to stay longer. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, yeah. Well, we'll do it again next year. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that's true.
\n\nCHAD: Mission control is the one team at thoughtbot that works on clients that is cross time zone, so most of the teams overlap with clients 100% with time zone. So it'll be people in the Americas work with clients in the Americas. But the Mission Control so that we could provide a wide swath of time zone coverage for that infrastructure work, for that support that we do, crosses the teams. So one person on your team is in Nigeria, and you're all the way in San Diego. What's that like? How do you manage that?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, well, everyone on the team makes sure to update their availability in their calendars so that we aren't accidentally scheduling meetings really late in the day for folks who are on that UK time zone. It's been all right, though. I'm used to asynchronous communication, and so is the team. So I think that we're really good at being able to use Jira and Confluence and Slack to communicate. And we are open with each other on where we're flexible if we need to make meetings a little bit later.
\n\nAnd everyone's been really supportive of not trying to have meetings too early with me, which I appreciate, [laughter] 8:00 o'clock is totally fine, though. It's actually been good. I'm used to the asynchronous communication. I actually would even be open to more meetings that are done just over Slack and just when people wake up.
\n\nCHAD: I think there are different philosophies here. But I'm very much in the camp of assuming we want to work a sustainable pace, which we do, then you can't build a culture around synchronous meetings where everyone needs to be on the meeting together because it's basically impossible. Those two things are at odds. Someone will be outside of their regular work hours, and that's really hard to continue on sustainably.
\n\nSo I'm very much in the camp of having a culture of asynchronous communication. And that doesn't mean that you never talk. [laughs] It doesn't mean that you don't work with each other. But maybe those times should be focused on what can't be replicated asynchronously, which is sometimes the social connections, the cultural connections of the team.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, and I think we get a kick out of saying like, "Good morning, Victoria, and good evening, Olamide." [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Cool. Well, I'm sure folks will get to know you more over the course of the next episodes. I really appreciate you joining the show. If folks want to follow along with you or get in touch with you, where are the best places for them to do that?
\n\nVICTORIA: I'm more active on Twitter, and so you can follow me there. And I tend to like and retweet a bunch of DevOps-related events and Women Who Code events. And I'm also on LinkedIn.
\n\nCHAD: So what's that Twitter handle?
\n\nVICTORIA: It's @victori_ousg.
\n\nCHAD: Okay. We'll include a link to that in the show notes. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with an entire transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And I'm so excited it's not just going to be me on that email list anymore. So definitely send an email. And you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks so much for listening.
\n\nVictoria, thank you again.
\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you
\n\nCHAD: And see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Sponsored By:
Adam Kenney is Chief Product Officer at Numerated, which helps banks and credit unions transform how they lend to businesses.
\n\nChad talks with Adam about what institutional banks and credit unions are like as a market and customers and what sales cycles look like, going from 17 to more than 130 customers quickly, and the scaling challenges they faced, and how the pandemic affected them as a company.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel, and with me, today is Adam Kenney, Chief Product Officer at Numerated, which helps banks and credit unions transform how they lend to businesses. Adam, thanks so much for joining me.
\n\nADAM: Thank you, Chad. Thanks for having me.
\n\nCHAD: Let's dive into Numerated a little bit more. How do you help banks and credit unions lend to businesses?
\n\nADAM: I think we're in the middle of what is a pretty meaningful transformation in terms of how businesses are expecting to get access to credit. Really what they want is something that is fast, easy, convenient, largely driven off of the change that has happened in the retail space over the last 10 to 15 years. And in many ways, business lending is still catching up to that, and so our focus is doing that. It's helping the banks and credit unions really change how they interact with their business customers. We use a combination of data and great experiences to make that process as seamless as possible.
\n\nWe've been noted to, using the combination of data and technology, help banks increase the number of loans that they can do with their existing staff by as much as fourfold. We are also noted for inventing what we like to refer to as the three-minute business loan. It's one of the things we were written up on in the Wall Street Journal back in our days in Eastern Labs, where we've been able to get businesses from the point of application all the way to a funded loan in less than three minutes. And that's a process that historically has taken as long as three weeks.
\n\nAnd so really excited by the ways that we're able to really help change how banks themselves can look at their operations. But more than anything, it's how banks are able to rethink and change how they interact with businesses and help the businesses in your communities grow and get access to the credit that they need.
\n\nCHAD: So from a digital product perspective, there's a piece of a product there that banks are actually taking on and white-labeling that provides a lending experience for their clients, right?
\n\nADAM: That's correct. I mean, we're a cloud-based SaaS system. But you're right; they branded as their own. And so if you're going to Eastern Bank's website and clicking through and ultimately going through the application process with us, it's going to look and feel like it's just Eastern's website. And all of the interactions that you have with Eastern or any of our customers are going to feel that way as well. So yes, it is a white-label solution that we sell to the banks, and they provide to their customers.
\n\nCHAD: The actual banking industry is not one that I've had a lot of experience in. And so I'm curious what institutional banks, credit unions, that kind of thing what they're like as a market or as customers and what the sales cycle looks like and those kinds of things.
\n\nADAM: It's about as varied as an industry can get, I'll tell you that. [laughs] You have to remember that banks and credit unions can be as small as having a few hundred million dollars in assets, maybe as small as 100 million. And in some of our customers' cases, they're de novo banks, and they're just getting started. And they range up to multiple billions of dollars in assets. And so, these are organizations that scale dramatically. Each of them have their own problems.
\n\nThey're also going to be made up of very different tech-minded individuals. You're going to have some smaller institutions that are basically managing a book of business that's been a book of business for close to a century and are interested in how technology can make them more efficient. But they are not the technologists that you and I would be used to working with on a day-to-day basis. And then, of course, you have people like ourselves who are really trying to, from inside the bank, change what banking is to their customers. And so, it's a very diverse industry in terms of what they're looking to accomplish.
\n\nWe've even come up with recently this framework around how we think about and really talk to our customers about how they transform and the levels of transformation that they can go through. And for us, it's essentially a four-level transformation starting with very small and pointed technology innovations that allow them to drive innovation in very fragmented bits and pieces, for lack of a better term, up to and including they're going to transform everything or become a digital bank. And you can imagine there are lots of stops along the way in terms of where a bank is and where they want to end up as part of their strategy.
\n\nCHAD: From a product perspective and managing change, do you get a lot of custom features from individual, either clients or potential clients? And how do you manage that if you do?
\n\nADAM: The way I think about it is that we certainly get a lot of requests from our customers, and every customer likes to think that they are different and unique. In reality, there's a strong theme to almost all of the requests that we get. And personally, I think that's part of what our job is as a product leader is to really understand how to create themes out of the individual requests and provide a platform back to the market that addresses as many of those in a more holistic way and drives value across not just the individual asks but across all of the customers. And so yeah, there's some uniqueness. And certainly, we need to provide a platform that allows for that.
\n\nSo as an example, every bank has a slightly different view into how they want their credit policy to work and be implemented, but the framework around how you make credit decisions, how I get data into the platform. How do I create a credit matrix? And how do I then decide the exact offer terms to drive out of that? Like, that's a standard capability. And so we're innovating on that based on the individual features, but it's really not with an eye towards providing a specific custom feature to individual customers. It's more providing a flexible platform that allows them to configure the nuance but in a general theme that's going to help them be a better business.
\n\nCHAD: So in the U.S., we had a specific program launched, PPP loans, in the pandemic to help support businesses. And I know thoughtbot we participated in that and went through that process. I don't think our bank was using Numerated. But I know that the bank really maybe...because they weren't using Numerated, [laughs] they needed to bring together an entirely new application interface very, very quickly in order to be able to take our application to that. And I think that Numerated was right there at the start of that.
\n\nADAM: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: Talk about something custom maybe quickly.
\n\nADAM: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: What did pulling that together look like?
\n\nADAM: So maybe to take a step back if I could first and just paint a picture for you because you're right, it was kind of a unique and incredible period of time. We were fortunate in our line of work because we are all about helping banks transform how they lend to businesses. We had the base platform already built and established that allowed businesses to apply for loans on our platform. Even before the pandemic, we were one of the leading technology platforms for processing SBA loans. So we were uniquely positioned for the opportunity as it results to PPP.
\n\nAt the start of the pandemic, we had approximately 17 customers using our platform. Fast forward six months later, we had 135. And so, to your point around there were a large number of institutions looking for a new application solution overnight, I think that shows you how aggressively banks needed a solution. And there was an opportunity for us to offer our platform to be that.
\n\nI think the other thing to recognize as part of the backdrop anyway is this was a crazy time if you think back to where we were in the pandemic. No one knew what life was going to look like in a week. And most businesses, especially smaller ones, didn't know if they were going to have a business. And so for us, that also provided the opportunity and maybe a little bit of the confidence in saying, "You know, we have nothing to lose. We're well-positioned. And what else are we going to do? Because it's not like people are making other loans for the next couple of months. Let's just go own this".
\n\nAnd so I think it was the combination of us making that recognition, having a really good base platform that had familiarity with the SBA, had familiarity with business lending, and with a team that then could really acutely focus on solving this one problem for as many customers as possible. And by the way, have the emotional impact of not only helping banks but knowing that we're basically helping hundreds of thousands of businesses stay afloat through probably the craziest time in our country's history. And so that's really what got us going.
\n\nAnd then there was a ton of work to your point around customization around building out the platform. But the one thing we've tried to do from the beginning is hold true to some of the foundational vision that I mentioned earlier. Like, we don't want to be in the business of custom software. That's not a winning proposition for us or our customers. And so, as much as it was maybe hard at times, throughout PPP, we were always thinking about okay, so we have to make these changes to support this crazy never-before-seen lending program.
\n\nBut how can we do it in a way that's going to set us up to serve the businesses in a year or two when this whole pandemic thing is over? Because PPP is not going to last forever, but our customers are. The businesses are still going to need credit. So whatever we're doing as much as possible, let's be building a foundation that gets us well beyond PPP. And so we were using it as really a catalyst to build a bigger business even while we were helping customers through the pandemic.
\n\nCHAD: One of the things that I really appreciated, and I have an outside perspective on it, but I really...and people can always do better.
\n\nADAM: Yes. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: But I thought it was one of the rare circumstances where everyone realized the urgency of the situation: government, banks, everybody. And there was a real willingness to realize, well, we've got to do something. If we try to figure it out all right now, it's going to take too long. So let's just do something, and we'll work out the details later. And so I think there was a willingness, and from a product perspective, my guess would be that allowed you to work iteratively too.
\n\nADAM: It did. It was [laughs], I think in some ways a blessing and a curse.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nADAM: Because I can tell you that the number of times my team would get a set of new capabilities, which listen, were great for the customers. It made everything better for the businesses that needed help, so I would never want it any other way. But the number of times that those new capabilities were announced by the SBA on a Friday night and were expected to be live on Monday morning, let's just say it was more frequent than I would ever like to relive. [laughs]
\n\nAnd I can remember, especially going into the second round of PPP, it just so happened that all that was happening between Thanksgiving and Christmas in a year where all families wanted to do was spend time with each other after a crazy year had gone by. But we didn't get that luxury, unfortunately. We had a job to do, and that was to make sure that we were ready for the next round. And so it did come with a lot of cost in terms of we had to work really hard to make it happen.
\n\nBut to your point, it allowed us to iterate. And I give the government credit, too, particularly the SBA. They could have, for example, just launched the program and then launched more money into it and stood still, but they didn't do that. To your comment, they had to get live as quick as possible. And so that first round of PPP, there were more technology hiccups. The SBA had some volume constraints. They couldn't really handle the performance. We ended up having to govern our application submissions because otherwise, the SBA couldn't handle it.
\n\nThere were other challenges in terms of how we were validating data. But that got better month by month. And certainly, by the time we got to the forgiveness part of the process and then the next round of PPP the following winter, they actually invested in completely ripping out their legacy API and providing us in the tech community a modern RESTful interface that was much easier, much more performant. And so, even though the volume got even crazier as we went through the program, it actually became easier for us to deliver.
\n\nThe first round, we were literally working around the clock because the SBA was having issues. We couldn't get enough documents through DocuSign and whatever else. We did, I want to say, close to 3 times the volume in the next round a year later but at about 15% of the energy because we had just improved that much in less than a year. And it wasn't just Numerated; it was Numerated working with our partners in government and elsewhere to just get the process that much smoother for our customers.
\n\nCHAD: Were there things that you needed to do at Numerated? I mean, to go from 17 customers to more than 130 that quickly, I assume that there were some scaling challenges for you along the way.
\n\nADAM: There was. And I will say this: we were blessed to have a really good technical infrastructure in place that allowed us to scale on the infrastructure side without a ton of problems. We were able to essentially stand up new environments in our infrastructure relatively quickly and easily and even handle the peak volume of PPP, which was exponentially higher than anything we had ever done on the platform. That was not a problem for us. Where we had to scale is in two areas, one from a technical standpoint was how we were interacting with our technical partners.
\n\nI mentioned already the need to govern how we were submitting applications to the SBA. We worked very closely with DocuSign to essentially put rate caps on how many documents we were generating at any given time and essentially spread the volume because none of us had dealt with that or dealt with that kind of volume before. And that's where we had technical challenges were in the interfaces and working with partners to make sure everything lined up well. So that was one area, got through it pretty well. And ultimately, like I said, for the second round, we were smooth sailing.
\n\nThe other area to your point around standing up all the banks was how we implemented the customers. Our typical implementation cycles going into the pandemic were multiple months. We had to stand up all over the PPP banks in less than two weeks. And so that took a combination of...I'll call it technical delivery. So we essentially created a cookie-cutter deployment and then used a deployment strategy to push that to all of the new customers all at once that we didn't have before. And we were able to create that relatively quickly.
\n\nThe other was we had to take a much harder stance with our customers than we had ever done around look; everyone's getting the same thing. It's government-mandated anyway, but it's going to be exactly the same. And other than the white-labeling that we, of course, gave everybody, you might want slightly different process around the workflow, around the approval.
\n\nYou're going to have to take the same thing that everybody else is because we just don't have time to configure the nuance across 100 banks. And so luckily, to your earlier comment around, everybody just realized we were in this unique time, we do what we have to do, and we got through it. Our banks were very willing to do that. But that was the other change we had to do to really see this scale through.
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\n\nCHAD: If you're comfortable talking about architecture a little bit, do you have a shared sort of platform that everyone is on? Or, for each of the customers you have, do they have their own instance?
\n\nADAM: So we've made the decision, mostly because of our regulated industry; we felt like it was safer, so each customer gets their own database. We do keep everyone's data completely isolated to protect their information and give them the utmost confidence that it is protected. But we have a shared application layer. And so, our web servers are shared multi-tenant instances. And so it's essentially a combined environment where we're both sharing some resources but then also deploying individual databases and then the configuration because outside of PPP, it is unique bank by bank. And so, the configuration gets deployed within each bank's individual environment.
\n\nCHAD: Cool. I've worked on systems like that before, and they can certainly present...especially when you need to scale them quickly, and you've got a lot of new customers being added. You better hope that it's been automated. [laughs]
\n\nADAM: Yes. And luckily, we had a good amount of automation in place during PPP or even going into it, I should say, but of course, PPP stretched that. And so we've just continued to get better and better as a couple of years have gone by.
\n\nCHAD: So the second PPP came through. It's in the forgiveness period now, so that's winding down. So Numerated were at that point you alluded to earlier, which is when you were doing PPP, you realized it's not going to be around forever. Let's lay the groundwork now to help customers in the future. We're sort of at that point now, right?
\n\nADAM: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: So what does that look like for you?
\n\nADAM: So it's essentially expanding the portfolio of loans that our customers can leverage our platform to execute. And maybe to say that better, if you look back prior to PPP, we got our start with small small business lending. And what I mean by that is loans under $250,000 that can be highly automated. That's where Numerated got its start working with Eastern first 15 customers, saw the value in getting extreme efficiency and delivering essentially capital to their businesses in a number of days instead of weeks.
\n\nThat's what we were great at, very similar to what PPP was, by the way, which was getting money to people in a number of hours in some cases. But we knew that that was never the vision for what we wanted to be or what our banks needed in the business banking segment. Ultimately, they want that same level of use efficiency experience for all of their business loans. But in order to support that, there are a number of capabilities that we needed to build into our platform to handle that.
\n\nUnderwriting gets increasingly complicated when you are underwriting loans at 500,000, a million, or $5 million. The businesses get more complicated. The collateral gets more complicated. The entire process just becomes more sophisticated. But that's what banks want, and by the way, that's what businesses want. They don't want to have a great experience when they're a little bit smaller, and they've taken out a $100,000 loan and then have the experience be crap two years later when they come back, and they've taken out a million-dollar loan. And so, that has always been our vision.
\n\nWe've had the fortune of being able to do really well on PPP and essentially just accelerate that vision. And so that's what we're working on right now is really building a loan origination system that allows our customers to transform how they lend to businesses in entirety. We have been building out all of the sophistication I mentioned around underwriting.
\n\nWe have recently acquired a company called Fincura based out of the Boston area. They automate spreading. If you're not familiar with what spreading is, it basically takes either paper or PDF versions of a bank's financial statements, and it turns them into really critical financial ratios that help banks understand the creditworthiness and the risk associated with the business. So you can imagine what that is.
\n\nIt's taking OCR, technology, AI, and basically taking what were PDFs and converting them into scores that can then be used to automate and drive efficiency in the credit decision, again, all part of being able to then really transform how banks are doing all of their business lending. But that's what we're working on now, converting all of the PPP customers to use the non-PPP, for lack of a better phrase, parts of the platform and really helping them change how their businesses look at them in terms of the opportunity to access credit.
\n\nCHAD: So I think it's probably worth noting you made the decision to join Numerated right before the pandemic hit.
\n\nADAM: That's correct.
\n\nCHAD: And so you joined when?
\n\nADAM: My last day at my previous company happened to be the day we closed the office due to the pandemic. I had obviously made the decision prior to that. But then, my first day on the job at Numerated was the second day of PPP. So essentially, you know, call it a week after everybody had gone home for what became the better part of the next year to two years.
\n\nCHAD: So I assume making a decision to join a new company, you're going to be the chief product officer. You've had a lot of conversations about what the vision is and what you're going to do. And you're going into a business where hey, there are 17 customers, and we're going to scale. But you probably didn't guess what was going to happen ended up happening.
\n\nADAM: No. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: So I imagine like part of your vision for what you were going to do both as a company and as an individual must have gotten put on hold.
\n\nADAM: It's funny, yes and no. So I will say no to your lead in there. There were certainly times before I started where I was calling Dan our founder and CEO. And I was probing him and pushing him like, is this still a thing? [laughs] Are we really going to go do this? Not realizing what PPP was and really what it was going to mean for our business. So there was that period of time where I wasn't sure. I knew it was going to be different, but I didn't know what that meant yet.
\n\nOnce I understood what was happening and what we were doing, I actually never felt like it was putting anything on hold. And I can come back to the fact that it put some elements of our business on hold. But for me and why I joined and the vision I had, I was coming to help the team really expand what the platform could do for banks and their business customers and to accelerate the number of ways we could help. I have prior experience working at Capital One and Pegasystems with a lot of the systems and the processes that we were helping to reinvent at Numerated.
\n\nAnd so, my vision was always to come and build off of those past experiences and accelerate what we were doing in this specific small business segment. PPP, in a lot of ways, just accelerated that. It took what would have probably been three to five years’ worth of market adoption in terms of understanding what digital transformation was going to look like, getting customers fully comfortable with a more digital experience, getting comfortable with a more data-driven approach to decision-making. And the pandemic forced all of that to happen in weeks.
\n\nCHAD: Well, people couldn't even go into the bank to turn in their paperwork. It had to be done remotely. The staff wasn't there either.
\n\nADAM: And the staff no longer could look at paper financial statements because they couldn't get paper financial statements. And so everything changed overnight. One of our customers has told us at multiple customer events since he's like, "You guys, you let the rabbit out of the hat, and it's not going back." It just changed overnight what was happening in the industry. And then, for us, it gave us all of this extra opportunity to invest and invest more in what we wanted to go do.
\n\nOur team, when I joined, was about 40 to 45 people. Our team now is 145 people. And our engineering team went from a little over 20 to just under 60. So we have exponentially changed the rate in which we're innovating and going after things. And so, for me, it's just accelerated and made things more exciting. The one other comment I'll make in terms of putting things on hold it did put some elements of the business on hold because every one of our customers stopped thinking about what I'll call traditional business lending and focused 100% for the better part of 18 months on getting through the pandemic.
\n\nAnd even once PPP was done, there was another six to nine months where banks were trying to figure out, are we really out of the pandemic? Are we ready to start lending the way we used to? Do we need to rethink risk? Because these businesses are all different now than they were two years ago. The things that made a business risky two years ago are different now.
\n\nAnd so there was also a little bit of a hangover as our customers internalized within their own walls what it meant to get back into lending. And so, it did put some elements of that on hold. We were fortunate, though, that we grew so much through PPP. And we actually kept adding what I'll call core customers, not just PPP customers, during that period that our growth actually accelerated. And it's been really good for us.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. You mentioned the team growth that you've had. Different companies are organized in different ways. As Chief Product Officer, where do you sit within the organization and relative to the engineering team?
\n\nADAM: So at Numerated, my responsibility includes all of the product management as well as the engineering organization. So I'm responsible with my teams for everything from initial product strategy, the product design. I have all of the UX and design team as well as then all of the execution, the delivery of the platform as well.
\n\nCHAD: So does that mean that there's VP of engineering in your organization or some sort of person like that that's working closely with you?
\n\nADAM: Sort of. So I have...basically, it divides more at the director level. So I have a couple of VPs that work for me that have a combination of product and engineering, both experience, expertise, and responsibility. But then their teams have product managers, and then we have directors of engineering that then manage their individuals from teams. I also have a group of former bankers. They're product managers but act as consultants to those organizations. And that's where we get all of our industry expertise. They've worked with the SBA. They've worked in credit offices, and they really help to influence the product roadmap across those teams as well.
\n\nCHAD: So the entire engineering structure also being under the chief Product Officer, I would say that and correct me if I'm wrong, I think that's probably not how the majority of companies organize it. Do you agree with that?
\n\nADAM: I have seen both, but I would agree that it is not the majority.
\n\nCHAD: I would say if there is a majority, and I agree, I've seen both too, but you might have a CTO and then VP of engineering. And so, the engineering organization goes all the way up to the C-level. And then there's a Chief Product Officer. And here's the product management and product underneath them. Was this an intentional choice from the beginning as you scaled out the team for you to have it all live under you?
\n\nADAM: It was intentional. I will give my personal view on it. I think that as we continue to evolve as technology companies, one of the hardest things for us to achieve is alignment around vision and purpose. And that drives a level of focus that I think maximizes the ability to move the business forward. And based on that premise, the places where I've seen things work the best is when there is a focal point across product and engineering within specialization underneath. Because it drives, I think, the best alignment across the organization.
\n\nI will acknowledge, however, that finding leaders that can actually operate effectively in that combined role is extremely difficult because you need people that have a high degree of engineering experience so that they actually know how to build for quality, build for scale, even for things that don't immediately impact the bottom line while having enough business acumen to understand the demands of the business and how to balance those priorities against what we need to grow the business at the same time.
\n\nAnd so, it does create a little bit of a snowflake challenge. I cannot find or replace those roles as we grow and scale nearly as quickly as I can in a divided organization. But I have found that it does help me drive clarity of priorities and purpose and ultimately focus in the organization versus the places I've worked where that hasn't been the case.
\n\nCHAD: So I guess given that, then I assume you're hiring. [laughs]
\n\nADAM: We are always hiring. [laughs] We are definitely in growth mode. And we are looking for great people that can help us to build a platform and really transform how our customers are thinking about how they lend to their businesses.
\n\nCHAD: Well, I agree. I think there are different structures then that can achieve it. And also, a lot of it comes down to the people but that alignment and that understanding of design, and product, and development or engineering. And ideally, people and all of those skill sets and all those teams who get it and can balance those different priorities with the business is really important, and that alignment of vision. And so there are probably different structures to get it, but that's what you're aiming for. And I think that the structure that you've set up is one which is very helpful to getting that alignment.
\n\nADAM: Agreed. Agreed. I think that while we're on the topic of the team and the culture we're trying to build out, I'll maybe use that as a way to share a few more things that we're really driving towards. You can imagine a company that has scaled the way we have and continues to grow. That presents some other organizational challenges as well. One of my firm beliefs is the fastest way to scale is to create really strong, empowered, decentralized teams. That, again, gets back to the whole vision and focus thing. They have to be rowing in the same direction. But they have to be really independent in the day-to-day.
\n\nAnd so we've really spent a lot of time over the last, I would say, year and a half shifting to that kind of a model to where each of the teams is really embracing what their individual accountabilities are. They are really focused on how they're delivering success for the business and are able to make a lot of the day-to-day decisions. But then it falls to management, leadership, myself to make sure that when they make those decisions, they understand the context in which we're trying to drive the business so that we can do as much as we can as fast as we can but in a way that's high quality and delivers value.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. Well, I sincerely wish you all the best in that. I really appreciate you stopping by and sharing. Thank you.
\n\nADAM: Yeah, my pleasure. I appreciate the time, and good to get to know you a little bit, Chad.
\n\nCHAD: If folks want to find out more, maybe apply, follow along with you; where are all the places that they can do that?
\n\nADAM: Yeah, sure. So numerated.com is where they can go and learn more about the business, and they can learn more about where we're hiring. People should check me out on LinkedIn. That's probably where I'm the most active these days. And feel free to message me as well. I'll also give you my email address if anybody wants to reach out. It's pretty simple. It's adam@numerated.com. Whether it's opinions, thoughts, or reactions to anything that I've shared today, or you just want to build a relationship, I'd love to hear from people and get to know you a little bit better.
\n\nCHAD: Wonderful. You can find links to all those things, probably not Adam’s email address, in the show notes.
\n\nADAM: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: We want to protect him from those spam crawlers. But you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for the episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks so much for listening, and see you next time.
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Susanna Twarog is Co-Founder and Co-CEO of SOS, which is transforming wellness on the go through a network of smart vending machines that deliver just-in-time necessities where and when you need the most.
\n\nChad talks with Susanna about wellness on the go, the unique business that they're building and what SOS can offer brands, and the biggest hurdles to overcome to get 10,000 machines up and running.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Susanna Twarog, Co-Founder and Co-CEO of SOS, which is transforming wellness on the go through a network of smart vending machines that deliver just-in-time necessities where and when you need the most. Susanna, thank you for joining me.
\n\nSUSANNA: Thank you, Chad. It's great to be here.
\n\nCHAD: So, what makes the vending machines from SOS smart?
\n\nSUSANNA: So what makes our vending machines smart? Well, I think smart and vending are typically not words that go together. And I think when we founded the company, the machines that we were looking at were outdated and old and out of stock. And to be honest, first and foremost, payment methods that are accepted by most vending machines are completely not in line with the modern consumer.
\n\nSo we were looking at vending machines that take quarters and cash. And as two working women on the trading floor, nobody has quarters or coins or even cash anymore. So first and foremost, we are a cashless, modern vending machine that accepts contactless and modern forms of payment.
\n\nCHAD: Let's level-set a little bit about wellness on the go, what that means. What I hear when I look at...which I took a look at the product on the website, which I encourage people to do, and it's worldofsos.com. I think it gives a much better sense of this. But correct me if I'm wrong that what we're talking about here is the vending machines that might typically be in a men's or women's restroom. Is that right?
\n\nSUSANNA: Absolutely. So the problem that we are in a mission to solve is to transform outdated, completely broken, ugly hardware that's existed to distribute wellness essentials like menstrual care and other wellness products in public spaces. So those old machines that look like steel box drops [chuckles] that is the business or the distribution channel that we're looking to disrupt. And so, by introducing beautiful design-first tech-enabled hardware into this space, we're completely transforming a distribution channel that has not worked or served anyone for decades at this point.
\n\nCHAD: I don't even use those vending machines. But it seems to me like they're often broken, dirty, not even stocked. Is there market reasons why that's the case?
\n\nSUSANNA: So, to be quite honest, I think Robina and I, when we founded the company, started to explore why hasn't this problem been solved? And the fact of the matter is the built world, and a lot of commercial real estate is designed and developed by a group of people who don't necessarily menstruate or need these products that are everyday health and wellness essentials for actually what is over half of the world's population.
\n\nBut the folks who design and plan these spaces are not necessarily coming at the design with a perspective of these needs. And so, honestly, Robina and I set out on a mission to say when we think about inclusive space and the world that we want to live in, we want to live in a world where not just among certain people but all people have access to health and wellness products that they need when they're not at home.
\n\nSo you may have everything that you need and want from the brands that you love and the ingredients that you trust in your own cabinet. But when you're on the go, and you're at work or you're traveling or entertaining, or spending time in other physical spaces that aren't your home, typically, those products aren't available, and they're very hard to access. So it's a major area for us to innovate and introduce a world that we want to live in where you can access the products you need from brands you already know and love or want to discover and try.
\n\nCHAD: So building really any hardware, and I have a lot of guests who have done hardware in the past, can be a challenge, especially starting out. What you talk about in the startup industry is often like starting out small, figuring out the minimum viable product, bringing that to market to early customers, and then learning and refining. And that can be difficult to do when you're shipping something physical. So how did you approach that?
\n\nSUSANNA: Robina and I approached this with a lot of intention and a lot of thought. We came from finance, business development, and sales backgrounds. Neither of us are engineers. So when we decided that we were going to found SOS and started to literally sketch out renderings for the type of hardware and design that we wanted to see in the world, initially, we were faced by a lot of people telling us to white-label products that already existed. You know, maybe don't invest in proprietary hardware or designing it yourselves. Try something that already exists. See if there's a product-market fit.
\n\nAnd ultimately, we actually invested in and began to work with an industrial design firm from the beginning. We have seven global design patents on the hardware because we knew that without an elevated design-first piece of hardware, the network would not be well-received, would not be able to grow and exist in the places we knew it needed to be, so to be in grade A commercial real estate where hundreds of millions of dollars are spent on designing and innovating into the built world to make these spaces cutting edge and tech-enabled.
\n\nAnd yet, if we didn't do the same with our hardware, this would just be another vending machine that got relegated to the basement or the back room, and that is not the company that we set out to build. We want to be a piece of integrated, exciting, engaging hardware and tech-enabled experience in these spaces. And so, to do that, we had to forge the path of bringing in and working with and basically investing our own money into designing a proprietary piece of hardware that could deliver the experience we knew was so integral to driving value for the company.
\n\nCHAD: I assume that wasn't easy or cheap. Did you fundraise at that point to do it? Or when you say your own money, were you literally the two of you investing yourselves?
\n\nSUSANNA: Absolutely. A big point of pride for me and Robina is that from the moment we founded the company through, to be quite honest, I would say the first 18 months of work, we invested our own personal savings. And this wasn't trust fund money that we'd inherited. This was truly just personal savings as young women in finance that we'd put aside, and it was the most money that either of us had ever spent on anything, was investing in ourselves and our own company. So we started...our first investments were in legal work and doing the patent search, and generating ultimately what has now been granted as seven patents for the company.
\n\nSo patent work was the first money we spent, and then also engaging with an industrial design firm to get our concept into CAD rendering and identify the first contract manufacturer that we worked with on the prototype. So we were able to get pretty far prior to fundraising with our own investment. And trust me, it was a big commitment from both of us. And I think the fact that as co-founders being totally in lockstep with taking some of the biggest financial risks that either of us had ever taken and doing it together, and really having equal passion and commitment and belief in what we were going to build was an exceptional part of our founding story.
\n\nCHAD: I imagine you were probably a little nervous, the two of you. [chuckles]
\n\nSUSANNA: You know, it felt just like we had to do it. And I think it's kind of like lightning struck in the sense that we had this moment. And from literally the moment that we stepped aside and started to map out the business, there hasn't really been a pause or self-doubt in the sense that we've really known we're going to take this as far as we possibly can. So scary, yes, but it felt like we had the conviction from the very beginning, which I know is rare and not everyone's founding story. But for us, it really was 100% the right thing to do at the time, which was we're going to make this happen.
\n\nCHAD: So where did you and Robina meet?
\n\nSUSANNA: So we met as colleagues first and foremost. So we were two, I would say at the time, young women working in finance, and she was my counterpart. So she had a role in London, and I was in Boston. And we worked on our basically sales and business development pipelines together as colleagues first. And ultimately, Robina relocated back to the U.S, and we became friends on the same trading floor. So really, it was a friendship that grew out of a business relationship.
\n\nCHAD: Do you remember when and where this idea first came from?
\n\nSUSANNA: Sure do. [chuckles] It's very close to my heart. I was in the middle of a workday faced with a frustration and inconvenient situation where I couldn't find products that I needed when I needed them at work. And it was interrupting my day for the millionth time. And you know those moments when you have a friend, and you choose the person that you run to when you are, I guess, pissed off for lack of a better word? [laughs] And we just took that moment of me saying, "This is insane. How am I dealing with this? I can't get a tampon when I need one." And our eyes lit up. And we said, "Ah, well, this is a common problem for a very important segment of the world. And we need to do something about it."
\n\nCHAD: Now, it's a big leap to go from that frustration to founding a company together and actually working on it. So, how did that happen?
\n\nSUSANNA: So we had that moment, and we stepped aside and said, "This is completely insane. I'm too valuable to be wasting my time worrying about this on a daily basis." And the other fun part of our relationship is that we're also two young women with disposable income. We love products; we love travel, we love entertainment. We like to have fun. We work hard; we play hard.
\n\nI'm taking those two perspectives, which is like this frustration and universal need combined with consumerism. And this desire to make money, spend money is like combining the two and saying we have an opportunity to capitalize on this need and this consumer at the same time to deliver on a mission and drive value and consumer value for brands at the same time. And that really, I would say, sparked a tremendous amount of excitement and interest from Robina and myself.
\n\nHow incredible to have an opportunity to build a company that is really driving good, and changing the world, and elevating access to these essential products while also tapping into this consumer interest of ours in products, and brands, and emerging indie brands, and digital content, and tech. And combining them all into one company and doing so with a lot of, I would say, excitement, and optimism, and win-win-win. Making the world a better place fulfilling a passion and interest of ours at the same time and driving value, and building a company.
\n\nCHAD: How far along were you in the idea stages, the legwork stages, before you both quit and started working on it full time?
\n\nSUSANNA: Took the leap. Yeah, that was a really critical decision and part of our journey. We were very intentional about taking the business as far as we could while protecting our personal financial interests in the sense that, you know, retaining benefits, positioning ourselves so that the company would have the most ability to succeed. And so we actually got through to basically 2020 when we were launching our first machines before we quit and ultimately joined our Techstars Boston 2020 program.
\n\nSo we were, I would say, nights and weekends absolutely killing ourselves with work. We were able to raise our seed round, our pre-seed round technically, while still employed at the bank. And I would encourage others who are thinking about starting companies to maybe...in some cases; I'd say do what we did. And in other cases, I'd say it might kill you.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nSUSANNA: But I feel like whether we liked it or not, it put us in a position where we had achieved a tremendous amount of traction. We had our prototypes built and ready to be installed. And they were literally going into some of the most prestigious physical, commercial real estate locations in Boston as we were quitting. So I would say we were taking quite a bit of risk still. But we'd done everything we could to protect the company and make sure that we could get SOS where it needed to be before joining and coming on full-time.
\n\nCHAD: How did you find those first places where the machines were going to be installed?
\n\nSUSANNA: From the beginning, it was one of the areas of the company that we invested the most of our time in, which was that we had extensive contacts and relationships in financial services; that was our background. We had to start from scratch networking, and telling our story, and telling our vision with commercial real estate partners.
\n\nSo pre-product, first slide decks, first cold calls, and warm introductions all really focused on commercial real estate. So we gave ourselves a crash course in real estate owner-managers, who the national players were, and started to network a ton, which was just LinkedIn, asking for introductions, having some meetings that were successes, having others that weren't.
\n\nBut really, I think Robina and I had a and have a very, I guess, strong sense of salesmanship, I would say. That's a strength of ours. And so we were able to really get people excited and to believe in us and not to say sell smoke and mirrors, but we were waiting on a physical product prototype to arrive. And we were able to get believers and commitments before we actually had the product ready to demo in the market.
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\n\nCHAD: So you already said at the beginning of the show your product is targeted or primarily for people who menstruate, and not a lot of property, commercial real estate developers, that kind of thing, are those people. So was that a struggle early on to get people excited or to find the right people?
\n\nSUSANNA: It will always be a struggle, or maybe not always, but it continues to be a struggle. I do also want to make sure I share what we have built. And we have a mission to elevate access to menstrual care products, but our product is for everyone. So our actual physical network and machines we actually carry wellness essentials for everyone. So by solving this mission-based problem of access to menstrual care, we're actually building a product that serves everyone. We have products that everybody uses and needs every day.
\n\nAnd what we see in the marketplace is that SOS really is for everyone. But to your point, I think a lot of conversations, particularly early days and even now, still is a lot of educating and educating decision-makers about the need for this amenity in inclusive space and diversity and inclusion goals. And how can you expect or corporations expect to deliver on these important metrics that their leadership teams are being asked when these essential everyday products aren't even available in their space?
\n\nSo there is a huge education. There are some uncomfortable conversations. Robina and I have gotten very, very good at having these direct conversations with a lot of people who maybe aren't comfortable talking about the products, but it's an important conversation that needs to happen. And if we don't have the conversation, then we're never going to get anywhere, and we're not going to be making progress.
\n\nSo our goal is to try to make the conversation exciting and engaging and show these leaders or decision-makers that there is a lot of brand equity that can go alongside thinking about the people in their space, what they need, and what can make their experience in physical spaces better. So that's kind of like leading leadership to a place where being part of what we're building is exciting.
\n\nAnd it's an exciting opportunity to deliver an experience that's been long overlooked and is in need of a refresh. And so I think when we find folks who get that and are comfortable and excited to be part of the story, then that's usually where we find our best fit.
\n\nCHAD: So you're now a little ways on from that period of time. So what stage would you say you're at from a company and a product perspective and a market perspective?
\n\nSUSANNA: We closed our seed round fall of 2021. And that put us in a position, and that capital has taken us to a place where we're a team of 12, and that's across sort of all categories, which is sales, product, marketing, operations. And we're operating in three markets so New York, Boston, and South Florida. We are going to be doubling our network from just over 40 machines to over 100 by the end of summer. And then we'll be looking to get to closer to between 300 and 400 by the end of 2023.
\n\nSo we are in a phase where our prototypes went from three machines in Boston to, like I mentioned, over 40 machines on walls now across corporate locations, transit, retail, sports, and entertainment. And we are and have been investing in and developing and evolving our tech stack and our product. So we've made some changes to our hardware since our prototypes, of course, and then invested quite a bit in our tech stack on the product side. So we will continue to bring in new best-in-class software partners where appropriate and then also invest in-house in continuing to evolve our product and features that we release to the network.
\n\nCHAD: Do you have a sense of, you know, currently the biggest number you mentioned is the 300 to 400 machine target. I imagine that the total possible number of machines that you could have, even just with moderate growth, is actually huge.
\n\nSUSANNA: Absolutely huge. So when we talk about our five year-projection, the number that we use is like 10,000 machines. So really, we want SOS to be ubiquitous. We want SOS to be everywhere you go, and so it's a brand that you associate and you trust to deliver just-in-time necessities from brands you love when you're not at home. So that would be across, you know, as people return to offices being an enterprise amenity and being in all leading real estate locations across the categories that I mentioned and really having a connected network.
\n\nSo I would say, in general, vending is usually associated with white-label machines or mom-and-pop operations with snack machines, and that is really not the goal. We want to deliver an elevated experience as a brand and as a company across all of these locations so that you recognize the SOS machine. You know the experience that you're going to get. You know the perks of interacting and engaging with us as a brand and that there's a real trust and brand awareness that comes with the network as it grows.
\n\nCHAD: I totally get that you're trying to do something different in this space. But what are the numbers of those traditional vending machine suppliers like? Is there a big player in this space, or is it a lot of local companies white-labeling?
\n\nSUSANNA: It's a lot of local companies. And I think probably a good opportunity for me to highlight probably the biggest component of our business has to do with the media network that we're driving. So our machines are 32-inch touch screens serving interactive digital media when not being used as a point of sale. So, in addition to obviously having contact with cashless payment for the actual transactions and retail at the machines, we are serving direct campaigns and programmatic advertising across the network.
\n\nAnd in terms of the value and the drivers behind what we're building, experiential marketing which can be a combination of digital media and physical retail distribution and sampling. And we have abilities to deliver value to brands looking for both. And in some cases, brands are looking to execute both at the same time. Others will be just looking at SOS as a unique way to drive impressions and brand awareness in spaces, and locations, and audiences that they haven't had access to in the past in this way.
\n\nCHAD: What might that look like? That might be a company like an exercise equipment company or something wanting to spread awareness but not necessarily having a product to offer in the vending machine.
\n\nSUSANNA: Exactly. It could be fitness, financial services, direct-to-consumer brands where the consumer matches the audience that we're reaching, but the product doesn't belong in the machine at the distribution point. So the digital media and impressions that we can drive in addition to the product type, which is we have touch screens.
\n\nSo we have first-party data collection opportunities, interactive campaigns, and surveys that run on our screens that are different than, for instance, a billboard that you drive by because this is a physical, interactive network. And with Instagram and Facebook advertising and first-party data being a very hot topic right now, having opt-in first-party data collection mechanisms for brands to offer sampling in a new channel is very valuable right now to a lot of the executives and CPG brands that we're talking to.
\n\nCHAD: I assume that from a business perspective, that is pretty attractive to you because the business of physical goods looks like one thing, but the business of advertising is a completely different model. And the combination of those two could be pretty attractive.
\n\nSUSANNA: Exactly. It's really unique about the business that we're building and what SOS can offer brands. So in order to, for instance, stand up a sampling campaign with SOS versus potentially having a street marketing team sampling, the cost and the data that we're able to collect by sampling through our network is much more valuable than potentially hiring folks to stand around and pass out product.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, there might even be some brands that aren't necessarily comfortable doing it depending on what it is, a street campaign, or consumers that might not be comfortable taking something from somebody on the street that in the privacy of a restaurant might go over a little better.
\n\nSUSANNA: Absolutely. I think there's discretion in this automated retail experience for actual interaction with the physical product. And our machines and the network are, in some cases, in restrooms. In other cases, we're actually public access, and we're in amenity spaces. So these machines and the distribution channel is available in a whole host of appropriate locations and spaces.
\n\nCHAD: Cool. So what's your biggest hurdle to getting to 10,000 machines?
\n\nSUSANNA: Well, right now, we have a ton of demand, and the hardware is capital intensive. I'm sure there'll be people listening to this who are scared of hardware. And I would say, in general, that is certainly an obstacle to growing a hardware business.
\n\nCHAD: Putting a machine in a new location is not immediately profitable. There's an expense to creating that machine and then a timeline for it to pay itself back.
\n\nSUSANNA: I would say certainly. At a high level, SOS is a B2B2C business. So it’s a B2B sales lifecycle for you're building relationships selling into institutions in commercial real estate and corporations. That is the first I would say challenge, and funding the hardware and lead times with supply chain and hardware right now. It's a very hot topic, certainly hasn't been easy.
\n\nSo the lead times on the hardware and then funding the hardware, so exactly if it's going to be a three or four-month potential lead time on hardware and orders. Funding that order before machines are on walls and revenue can be generated on media, and our product sales or amenity fees kick in. The timing of all of that makes, I would say, our business but hardware businesses in general potentially either less attractive to investors who are looking at SaaS companies all day long and have a very different profile in terms of the company.
\n\nBut we're excited to be in a position where we have a very, very hot pipeline, a lot of inbound interest. I would say we're getting inbounds from best-in-class partners that we could only dream of doing business with. And they're reaching out to us to bring in the amenity. So it's an exciting position as a founder to be in to be opening your inbox and having multiple grade A inbounds a day. That's fantastic.
\n\nAnd moving towards a place where we're happy to report that we have signed and committed machine financing in place for this next period of growth. So that opens up a lot of doors. And in terms of our journey, initially investing our own cash into getting the prototypes ready for installation in 2020 to being in a position now where we have our first machine financing vehicle in place to actually protect our equity as we grow the network, which is what we're looking to do for the remainder of this year and next. I don't know if I answered that accurately. [chuckles] But the challenges of running and operating and funding a hardware capex–intensive business is probably the biggest.
\n\nCHAD: Is there a point in time where it really is that or something close to that that's holding you back, and you end up just doing this huge financing round or something in order to completely blow out the scale?
\n\nSUSANNA: I think we have, and we're very keenly aware of first-mover advantage in the sense that we have, and COVID and other global macro-economic barriers have basically made it hard for a lot of companies to grow really fast right now in certain industries. So we do have a first-mover advantage right now. And I think we want to look at the next; I would say year to year and a half to get the company to a network size where we're operating profitably and then go to our Series A and really crank on the growth and get the network humming and growing really rapidly after our Series A.
\n\nCHAD: So your goal would be to be operating profitably before getting to that next phase of growth.
\n\nSUSANNA: We expect to right now based on what we're seeing. So the business and our performance indicates that with this equity, this next...we're basically entering a bridge round, but with this machine financing and a bridge round, we should be in good shape to do so.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I think there are lots of different ways of doing things. But that seems to be what investors are wanting to see today. But also, I think not only is it from the market, but I think they're a little bit more...not to dwell on specific examples that I don't know too much about, but like, for example, scaling Blue Apron and a lot of the other meal box companies they were doing that when they weren't profitable. So they had never really shown that they could actually be profitable, but there were real costs to scale as well like you have.
\n\nSUSANNA: I think for many reasons, it makes sense for us, I think, to get the business to profitability. And a lot of it is selfish, you know, thinking about the company and our current equity stakeholders. But we don't want to be in a position where we dilute ourselves out of the business effectively with growth capital when we haven't proven or made the company profitable. So, anyway, that's our goal. And I think we're feeling pretty optimistic about it right now despite the fact that I know the market and the world feels like it's falling apart [chuckles] for a million different reasons. But we actually, surprisingly and shockingly, feel pretty optimistic right now.
\n\nCHAD: Well, I really wish you the best with that, and I look forward to following along and seeing all the good news along the way. If folks want to find out more about SOS or get in touch with you, where are the best places for them to do that?
\n\nSUSANNA: So definitely, I think you mentioned our website, that's worldofsos.com. And you can feel free to email us at hello@worldofsos.com.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. Thanks so much for stopping by and sharing your story and your wisdom with us. I really appreciate it.
\n\nSUSANNA: Great. Thank you so much for having me.
\n\nCHAD: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks so much for listening, and see you next time.
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Anna Spearman is the Founder of Techie Staffing, which connects high-quality technology talent with high-caliber clients.
\n\nChad talks with Anna about founding and growing the company, immediately after graduating college, during a pandemic, reputation building, and facing skepticism around her lack of track record in recruiting, and finding and providing talent for clients as a white-glove service.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Anna Spearman, the Founder of Techie Staffing, which connects high-quality technology talent with high-caliber clients. Anna, thanks so much for joining me.
\n\nANNA: Thank you so much for inviting me, Chad.
\n\nCHAD: In theory, at the surface level, Techie Staffing is probably fairly straightforward in terms of what you do. But I'm curious how you got started.
\n\nANNA: Yes, of course. So I can't believe I'm saying this, but it's been two years. Two years ago, I was, during that time, attending the University of Virginia, where I was majoring in computer science with a minor in entrepreneurship. And in the spring of 2020, I was planning on coming back home to...I was born and raised in Los Angeles, and I was planning to come back home for spring break. And I was finishing out my second semester of senior year. So I was planning my [chuckles] victory lap of going back home, taking a little bit of a rest time, and then coming back to UVA to finish my degree, graduate, and move on to a new job in Los Angeles.
\n\nBut unfortunately, as my plane was landing in Los Angeles, we kept hearing about COVID. And so the pandemic hit in the middle of my spring break. And during that time, I had to finish my second semester of senior year remote. It was very stressful, but when I finished the degree, I was so fulfilled. But unfortunately, there was a rapid dwindling of entry-level tech and product roles. I initially either wanted to be a software engineer or a product manager or be a software engineer that transitioned into a technical product manager.
\n\nBut unfortunately, once the pandemic hit, companies weren't willing to ramp up entry-level talent. Companies didn't really know what was going to happen in the future, and everybody was remote. So it was just a really confusing time. But while I was searching through different job boards trying to find new opportunities, especially entry-level opportunities, I found just a wealth of senior tech jobs, specifically with companies that were thriving due to the pandemic. During that time, companies like Peloton, Discord, Zoom, they were all soaring due to the pandemic.
\n\nSo I had heard about contingent recruiting in the past. My biggest dream for a new opportunity for myself graduating out of college was just to learn something new every day because I've always had a very much an interdisciplinary background. I've never been able to stay in one area. I've always loved to try different things. So with a little bit of a background recruiting at a past summer internship as well as wanting to utilize my entrepreneurship minor...I'm actually a fourth-generation woman entrepreneur. So definitely, growing up, creating my own business was my dream. So really, that was my main goal.
\n\nI thought I was going to transition from a current role into entrepreneurship, but I had my back against the wall. So I just thought, why not start now? So I created Techie Staffing, a technology staffing agency specializing in direct hire placements nationwide. I basically had my virtual graduation; then I took a week. And then, I got started creating the website, establishing the business paperwork, as well as developing strategic partnerships with senior technical recruiters that had full candidate pipelines to fill incoming job requisitions.
\n\nAnd I basically started off with nothing. I had no contacts, no network, just nothing at all. And I was really starting just fresh. So I really had to really spend a lot of time networking and developing relationships as well as just learning and mastering full lifecycle recruiting, especially with engineering since there's such a supply and demand issue for software engineers. So you're just consistently following up and contacting people that could potentially be interested in your companies. But it really blew up.
\n\nAs I was establishing everything in 2020 from summer to the end of 2020, it was 2021 when it really blew up where I contacted this founder during the time they had raised a Series B 50 million, which was amazing, and they were going through a hiring sprint. So we got connected fairly quickly. And with just great team synergy, we were actually able to place five people in one month, and it was frontend, backend, and full-stack developers. So that really jump-started Techie Staffing.
\n\nAnd then after that, we worked with...we're now working with Fortune 500 companies as well as high-growth startups and really building a diversified portfolio, and we’re also a certified woman-owned business which I'm so proud of because there aren't really a lot of women or even just women of color that are founders. So I was really happy to get that certification, really proud of that as well.
\n\nI always say all the time to everybody it's super stressful, but it's so rewarding at the same time. And I do believe that it's honestly, you know, I know the pandemic has been super hard on people. And it's been such a change and such a shift. But there is still a part of me that is so grateful for making that pivot because I really found something that I feel like I really enjoy doing every day.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. I really commend you on everything you've done so far. And I'm excited about what you're going to do in the future. You now have grown where you're multiple people on your team.
\n\nANNA: Yeah, so we actually hired two new people fairly recently. I did have one direct hire recruiter working with me. So now it's officially a team of four. I did develop the strategic part. I do still have some strategic partnerships as well because on that part, at first, I was partnering with recruiters that were independent, so who were a little bit more entrepreneurial so that we could split the placement fee. But it's still better to just have full-time employees. I'm so excited to have two new additional hires, and it's still new for me.
\n\nSo I'm really looking forward to growing together in terms of growing Techie Staffing and growing into being a full life cycle recruiter because it wasn't that long ago when I was in that same exact spot. And it's so amazing. It still blows my mind to this day how two years ago, thinking about interviewing candidates or selling to clients, and now what I've evolved in. It's been absolutely amazing.
\n\nSo I'm so happy to see their journey and seeing them transition into being technical recruiters and also making a pivot in their career as well, which that's still blowing my mind a little bit. I'm sure you know founding thoughtbot and really building that from the ground up. So it's just amazing seeing that infrastructure. It just really brings a brighter future as well.
\n\nCHAD: So what kind of people do you look for when you're looking to add to your team? Are you bringing on people who have experience with recruiting? Or are you bringing on people who are transitioning into it?
\n\nANNA: I would say for Q1 and Q2 of 2022 and even a little bit beforehand, since there was a surge in demand for everything and tech companies were just scaling like crazy, there was very much a competitive market for recruiters, specifically technical recruiters. Because that's what companies were really looking for to scale their engineering and product teams. So it was very, very competitive to recruit for a technical recruiter.
\n\nSo now you see agencies now who are hiring people who can have the DNA for a technical recruiter but not necessarily have direct experience, which I think can be really, really cool. Because like I said, like two years ago, I knew absolutely nothing, and now I feel very much confident in the full life cycle. So I think that's really cool to have people be able to pivot into a really cool industry where you're really learning something new every day, and you're speaking to really interesting people.
\n\nWe specialize in senior up until C-suite, so yeah, learning from people who are senior all the way up to Director, VP. So it's really interesting. So when I was approaching hiring, I really wanted to find someone who had that DNA that can potentially transition to being a technical recruiter. And that DNA would be, you know, it doesn't have to be personality but just really interacting with engineers, just maybe being a self-starter.
\n\nI would say great communication, and lastly, I would say just really hungry. Yes, I would say hungry. Because if you're really hungry and you're really willing to learn and be open, so openness as well, then you can really understand the rules or just the lifecycle and the process of being a recruiter, and then you can change people's lives.
\n\nI actually had one...It was about a year ago, I was working with a Fortune 500 company, and I recruited this guy, and I led him through the process. And it was about maybe a month later when he told me I had basically changed his life. Him and his family were now moving to Atlanta, and it was a new role, and it was just a fresh start. And he was just telling me how appreciative he was of me, and so that really hit home. So I think for those two new hires, I'm so excited to have them get super engaged and be able to change other people's lives as well under the Techie Staffing name, of course.
\n\nCHAD: You mentioned early on that you're contingent recruiting. So correct me if I'm wrong, but that means that you get paid when you place somebody, when someone gets hired from the company that hires them.
\n\nANNA: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: But then you also mentioned that these people who you're bringing onto your team are full-time. So how does the compensation structure typically work for them?
\n\nANNA: Oh, compensation, we have them on salary, but they do have commission. So we wanted to really give; like I said, I want us to grow together. So I do provide commission for each placement they'll place just to really provide incentive. Like I said, it's so early. I want us to think of each other just as teammates and a team because we're all building towards the same goal.
\n\nSo just really wanted to provide incentives where they're really feeling like they're almost owning it full life cycle as well. Because like I said, it's early on, and these can be really strong pillars in the future. So there is salary, but there's also that commission as well to just really provide that incentive. And I know for me personally, incentive can be awesome, so definitely trying to provide that motivation and having them really feel like they're an integral part.
\n\nCHAD: What's the harder part of your business? Or are they equally hard, finding new clients versus finding people who want to work with you on the candidate side?
\n\nANNA: On the business development side, I would say it was harder perhaps in the beginning because I just so was starting with nothing, really. I had just graduated from college. And a lot of agency owners they previously have maybe worked at a really cool tech startup, or maybe they've been working on their agencies for the past 5 or 10 years. They have previous years of experience, but I didn't have that.
\n\nSo I had to convey another method of just really networking, really meeting people, and just really knowing my stuff and having a handle on it. I know maybe a lot of people say, like, just fake it until you make it because then once you make it, and then you get that experience, then you can transfer that experience to new experiences as well. So at first, it was really just building myself up and building the Techie Staffing brand so that we could acquire those clients.
\n\nIn terms of the candidate side, I would say Techie Staffing, and one of the things and part of our brand that we love to portray is that we are the agency that has the companies with the best employer branding. Because like I said, with the supply and demand issue for the software engineers, it is so competitive to attract them to new opportunities. There are just so many companies that are contacting them multiple times a day. So there has to be at least a little bit of a shine or a little bit of a differentiator for companies that you're recruiting for.
\n\nSo we actually specialize in companies that are Series B and above that do have that established employer branding where engineers are really interested in joining that company, so that's just the thing. It's like really having companies that have strong employer branding and being able to follow up. Follow-ups are really, really important when it comes to engaging engineers because, like I said, it's just a super competitive market and just trying to provide them a great white-glove experience. There are some agencies that fall a little bit too close to the client-side where the client is always right.
\n\nAnd there are some that fall too much to the candidate side where the candidate is right, but we really want to be a balanced middleman where we're just trying to find the compromise and find the best solution for everybody. So that's the real important part of it of just really providing them with a great experience and showing them that we care and that we're rooting for them.
\n\nBecause it sometimes does surprise me when candidates can be a little...maybe this is a part of me being new. But that's kind of an advantage, too, because I'm still paying attention to detail. That's where my computer science major comes in. It's like constantly trying to stay in tune with candidates and what they need, so just trying to provide a great experience in general. And I'm sure you feel that way with your clients. You're a consultancy as well where you're trying to be B2B and contact these different companies. So how do you conduct business development and really differentiate yourself?
\n\nCHAD: We focused a lot on reputation building, so blogging, creating open source so that we don't need, fortunately, to cold contact people. And when we do, we're fortunate enough that they might already know about us. And so it's an easier conversation to have because they may already be reading our blog, or they may already be using some of our open source in their product. And so it becomes an easier conversation to have. But the majority of our clients actually come to us when they have a need because we're fortunate enough to have worked to be at the top of the list.
\n\nANNA: Definitely, yeah. And I'm still doing that, just reputation building. With one of our Fortune 500, we're doing incredibly well with them to the point where we're filling their pipelines, and we have majority of our candidates in their pipeline. So that's what we're really working on right now is just consistently...and I know like with any business, you have to just constantly build that reputation. So I especially just try to provide a great experience for candidates because they can also be hiring managers as well, so just really providing that white-glove experience.
\n\nAnd also, a cool differentiator we always like to showcase is like, I'm a computer science major. And actually, the two people that I just hired have a tech background. So it's not like tech is entirely foreign to us. We've engaged with programming languages. We've coded projects. So we do have some form of understanding when it comes to certain technologies or certain projects that certain engineers are working on.
\n\nAnd that's what really gets me excited to speak with engineers because it's so cool and interesting hearing about them working on their projects and working on projects that directly affect me and the products that I'm interacting with. So it's so cool to hear about their...I can understand a bit. And so that's another thing we have with Techie Staffing is really finding people who have a bit of a tech background so at least they have a little bit of knowledge or an understanding of what projects and can be able to really share and convey that to clients that are looking for this talent.
\n\nCHAD: You mentioned it's a really competitive market now. And as a company who probably has multiple clients, how do you minimize or how do you deal with the potential competition for the limited supply among your own clients?
\n\nANNA: Among my own clients, I will say that right now we don't have...for the roles that we're working on for each client, they're not very similar or too, too similar, which is a good thing. We would like it in the future where we could have the same role, but we can understand how that can be a little tricky as well.
\n\nCHAD: And how do they differ then? Are they differing by the technology experience that they're looking for or the sort of level of the role? How are they different?
\n\nANNA: It could be technology, difference of the role. So, for example, for a Fortune 500 company that we're working with, we'll work more with UX, data science, data science roles, as well as...so UX, data science. And then for high-growth startups, mostly with them, they're really looking for back-end engineers, but overall just engineering so frontend, backend, DevOps. We are working potentially to do engineering or more engineering-heavy for our Fortune 500 companies. We have recently been working on a VP of engineering.
\n\nSo for Fortune 500 for now, we've been working more with leadership roles especially, and for high-growth, it's been more engineering IC. But we would like to transition that in the future to have it kind of...or have roles that maybe some candidates could go to this company, and some candidates can go to that startup. And then another differentiator could be or what makes our clientele different from each other is for high-growth startups, especially for engineering ICs, they're really looking for candidates that come from high-growth startups who just understand the current company where they are, and how they're scaling during that period of time around that series B and series C. That's the time to really scale.
\n\nAnd Fortune 500 companies they can be open to startups, but for the most part, especially sometimes for leaders who need to have a certain amount of direct reports, they're more looking for people from larger companies. So that would be one way to kind of separate it and so we're not having candidates almost be where they have to compete with candidates within our own company. Because with the difference in the leveling of companies, there's just a difference in what kind of candidates that they're looking for.
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\n\nCHAD: When I was first starting thoughtbot, I really felt like I needed to take every client that we could get because we were just starting out. We needed to make money. We needed to build a reputation. And so, I felt like we needed to say yes to every client. Over the years, I learned that that was actually watering us down, and it made us less successful. And the more we were clear about who we were, and what we did, and what clients we were best for, the more successful we were. Have you gotten to the point where you needed to turn down clients?
\n\nANNA: Because I do such targeted biz dev, we will contact companies that we personally want to work with. But I will say in the beginning, there were some companies that were a lot smaller that, just like you said, you just felt the need to want to rack up a client list. And you just are ready to go and wanting to work with someone. It really motivated me to really take a look and really go deep into the type of clients that we want. So, for example, really, really early-stage companies can have a really, really hard time hiring because, like I said, employer branding is so, so important.
\n\nAnd so usually what they'll have is maybe like mission, but they won't really have salary. Or they won't really have the employer branding of the company of candidates either knowing about the company or being able to search the company really quickly and seeing the platform that the company is building and seeing how strong it is. So it's really, really hard to recruit for those stages. I mean, it is possible, but it's just really hard.
\n\nAnd then at the same time for these early-stage companies, they really want to, which I totally understand, you know, when you're having your probably 8th, 9th, or 10th engineer and being on the founding team, you really want a strong engineer because that's your platform, that's your baby. You don't want anybody that, you know, it could potentially maybe cause problems, or they really want somebody there they can trust. And so it's hard, you know like I said --
\n\nCHAD: But they might not be able to afford that. [laughs]
\n\nANNA: Yes, they might either not be able to afford it, or they also cannot interview fast enough in order to just get the offer in their hands. Because I understand they really want to have them speak to the entire team and have them have an in-depth process because it's very much an important role. But these candidates and startups are moving so fast right now where I will speak to a candidate one day, and he or she or they'll probably say, "Oh, you know, I'm passively looking. I'm not really actively looking." And maybe a week and a half to two weeks later, they're like, "Oh, I actually have two offers in hand."
\n\nSo it goes really, really fast versus earlier stage; it can just go a little bit slower because they're just really taking the time to go more in-depth and see if this prospective candidate is the right fit, which is totally understandable. But it was just really hard for us as contingent trying to find that candidate, that perfect candidate for them as well as trying to keep candidates warm and keep them interested when some companies just have like mission.
\n\nSo now, in the future, I've just really, like I said, Techie Staffing, we specialize from Series B and above. And I really just make sure during business development exploratory chats that I'm really going in-depth and making sure I understand the roles that they're prioritizing their time to hire. So if they have a long, long interview process and a really, really low salary in terms of the competitive market, then I may not be as interested in that startup as opposed to another startup whose interview process timeline could be about a week and a half to two weeks.
\n\nAnd it doesn't have to be absolutely amazingly competitive base salary but just a fairly competitive salary with a great timeline for time to hire. So that's been my way of just condensing or just being a little bit more pickier in terms of clients in the future. Were there any certain clients for you where you started working with them, and you were like, "Oh, maybe I shouldn't have," that's now caused you to be a little bit more pickier for clients in the future?
\n\nCHAD: Part of it was the kind of work. So we really wanted to be writing software. But just starting out, I also had a background in sort of IT support. And so, when I was reaching out, particularly to past clients, they might say, "You built our website. Now can you help us with purchasing a computer or setting up a computer network in our office?"
\n\nI felt compelled to say, "Yes," because I felt like we needed all the work we could get. But by doing that work that wasn't really what we wanted to be doing, we were not only less happy in our work, but it was taking time and attention away from the work that we really wanted to be doing.
\n\nThe other was values and practices, which took a little bit longer to form a real understanding of what our values were and the practices that we believe in. But now there's a pretty clear list of the kinds of companies that...what we say at thoughtbot is that we want to work on things that deserve to exist in the world.
\n\nAnd so there's a whole bunch of industries that they might not even be actively doing harm in the world, but they are the ones that we wouldn't work in. But even if it's just not a positive contribution to the world, it's probably not going to be something that we're excited to work on.
\n\nANNA: That's been an exciting trend, actually, to speak with engineers about. I've started seeing that trend where engineers are saying, "I don't want to create anything evil," or "I just want to do good." And that's been a really awesome selling point for some teams. It definitely is a cherry on top where engineers are really looking for social impact. And the cool part is they have so many opportunities that are coming towards them that they can really pick and choose which one. So to find people who are really looking for social good and just really mission-driven products is amazing to see.
\n\nAnd I'm really happy with the work...I'm actually working with a data science team for AI ethics. And that's been really interesting hearing some people talk about their projects and hearing about how data can really not only just strengthen bias but also can just really produce results that can harm certain groups of people, which is so interesting. And it can be something so, so small that I haven't even noticed at all, but that can lead to a big difference.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, we've had several episodes about that.
\n\nANNA: And it's amazing. And it really is just a huge difference with something so small. And as a woman of color, I'm always aware of what's going on in terms of just ethical practices or just fairness and seeing bias. But in terms of data, seeing something so so small can affect just a whole group of underrepresented people is just amazing to see. But it's also amazing that people or data scientists are now aware of it, and now they're changing it so that it no longer...at least they'll be able to alleviate that bias.
\n\nCHAD: I want to ask a little bit more about that, and then I want to talk about some market trends. But if you're comfortable, I'm curious; you already mentioned you were just out of college when you were getting started. So there was skepticism around your lack of track record in recruiting. And you've mentioned that you are a woman of color.
\n\nAnd so I think as engineers, as people in the market, we probably have this image in our head of what a typical recruiter looks like in terms of attitude, and values, and demographics. And you don't fit that mold in almost any way, basically. Is this actually a positive for you now, or is it actually still hard? Are there companies that are actively seeking out to work with you because they want that different approach? Or are you still facing that skepticism?
\n\nANNA: I'm still facing that skepticism. I actually created Techie Staffing around the time of summer 2020, where Black Lives Matter, where George Floyd happened. And it was really interesting because I was entering the corporate workplace. I went to a really wealthy private school in Los Angeles. And I went to the University of Virginia. So I survived two PWIs which means predominantly White institutions. So I thought I had not seen it all, but I thought I had maybe experienced those experiences of bias and understood it a little bit more.
\n\nBut when I went to the corporate workplace and the diversity inclusion campaigns were happening, it was just really confusing because it's hard specifically for engineering and product specifically because it's so new that there is a really, really hard time to find diverse talent. That's why I honestly believe that it's just really trying to educate underrepresented communities to understanding all of the different diverse types of roles and opportunities that you can encounter in the tech industry so, for example, like UX, UX design, UX research, data science, machine learning, all of that.
\n\nSo I think I was more contacted or maybe was engaged in business development companies who were looking for me to do diversity which I think it kind of...and I am such a huge proponent for diversity. But it also kind of had my heart drop a little bit because I just felt like people were contacting me because of who I am instead of just thinking like if it was just any other agency, would I be contacted specifically for that? It was more just for exclusive searches, which can be very, very hard for products and engineering.
\n\nI think in diversity and inclusion, we really need to focus on different departments and the different problems that underrepresented communities encounter with different departments. So it was just really hard, but in terms of companies contacting me because I am a woman of color owning an agency, no, that didn't really...and it's never really helped. I do wear it as a badge of honor because, like I said, I started out with nothing. So to start out with nothing and have to fight through everything to sit at the table and create something is amazing.
\n\nMy background didn't really help me. It was really just me, just constantly contacting people. And I was prepared for this because, in my entrepreneurship minor, they said, "You're going to encounter a lot of nos," and so I did. I encountered so many nos, but eventually, I was able to turn those nos into yeses. So now that I turned some of those nos into yeses...and I'm still encountering nos, but I still keep going and still building and building.
\n\nAnd now I do feel a sense of pride now two years later where it is like, wow, I really did have to fight through to make it, and that's where I hold just a huge sense of pride. But no, it was not my background that really...the only thing that my background was maybe appealing was thinking like, oh, okay, I think you can do diversity and inclusion, which I don't want to be profiled in that way.
\n\nI just want to be a founder who happens to be a Black woman instead of a Black woman founder. And so, I don't want to be contacted to feel like my race is a part of it. And that was interesting in the corporate workplace, especially when I was trying to navigate different, you know, how to speak, how to build rapport, or how to navigate corporate workplace conversations.
\n\nAnd that's very hard to do with diversity and inclusion because you're fighting with, like, that's racism and misogyny. That's something really deep-rooted, and that has been here for years and years. So it's a really heavy, heavy topic. And that's not some really, really heavy topic that you really want to bring or a lot of people don't really want to bring into the workplace. So that was just hard to encounter.
\n\nBut overall, I so, so support diversity and inclusion. And the cool part is because I have this awareness and I know that diverse teams are better teams, whenever I'm sourcing, or one of my recruiters is sourcing, I'm just making sure that they have that in the front of their mind, and they're just trying to diversify their candidate pipeline as much as possible.
\n\nCHAD: Well, taking it from the candidate side of things, I, unfortunately, I'm of the belief that the hiring process is really ripe for extreme, subtle unconscious biases or conscious ones even to have an impact on the hiring process. So, how have you navigated that on the candidate side? I'm sure you don't want to say anything negative about any of your clients. It's not about, oh, this company is racist. But I think do you agree with the premise that the hiring process at a lot of companies is ripe for some bias to creep in?
\n\nANNA: Of course. I mean, all of the time. And the part that's so, I would say, scary about it is that bias is something that you feel. It's not really tangible. You can't really grab it. I mean, it can be in writing, and [laughs] there has been stuff in writing. But it's very much kind of yeah; it's non-tangible. So it's hard to really call it out specifically of like, hmm, this candidate I don't know why all of a sudden nice to haves become must-haves. Why is there a shift?
\n\nLike I said, there are different problems with different departments, but there are also different problems in terms of leveling systems, so leadership roles versus individual contributor roles. There can be a little bit more, you know, maybe there's a little bit more openness on the IC side, but with leadership, it can get a little interesting sometimes. But the hard part is it's not really tangible. So I really have to give it to diversity like DEI specialists because to have to navigate those conversations and really articulate a non-tangible thing is so, so complicated.
\n\nSo there are tangible things you can do, like having a diverse panel. But what happens if the company doesn't even have the numbers for diversity to have that diverse panel in the first place? So it can get really complicated in terms of trying to navigate the bias within the interview process, and we do try to do our best there, just trying to provide on our side because that's all we can do. It's really up to the companies in terms of their interview processes and how they are going to change it or maintain some stages.
\n\nBut for us, we're just trying to just submit diverse talent and really just try to provide that white-glove service for them and hope that that bias doesn't seep in. But like I said, it's such a heavy topic. And like I said, with corporate workplace politics, it can be so fragile and really interesting. So it's just hard to really take that and understand where it comes from or being able to even verbalize it. So that's where it gets really interesting.
\n\nAnd so, I do hope that in the future, interview processes are changed where there is able to be a diverse panel, or there is a way to really be able to understand that bias. Because like I said, it's very complicated. And we don't want to claim that any company is specifically racist, but it's just understanding bias and maybe why there's a difference for one candidate versus another candidate, which can be really interesting.
\n\nCHAD: I think the first part is recognizing that everybody has biases, and it could be anything. It could be, well, what happens when you come across a resume of someone that went to the same school that you did? What happens to that resume, then? And does that subtly influence how you review that resume? It has nothing to do with their race or the color of their skin or anything. So those biases can creep in, and you need to decide as a company is this something that actually matters to success at the company? Is this something that we want to be using when we make hiring decisions about who gets that first interview or who continues on in the interview process?
\n\nFor us, we've decided it's not, so we have a completely anonymous screening process where we don't even show the names of schools. We don't show the names of the companies that you worked at previously. We only show the positions that you held at those companies because we've decided that whether you have a degree or not doesn't matter, and the companies that you worked at previously don't matter. It's what you were actually able to do with that experience.
\n\nANNA: Oh yeah. I think that's actually amazing. That's a really great way of doing it. I always just try to tell hiring managers also to just open that candidate pipeline as much as possible because the number one way to really understand someone isn't really through just a piece of paper.
\n\nYes, we want to make sure that the resume is at least a bit aligned. And they have, if it's an engineering role, for example, the right tech stack or maybe the right technologies or the right kind of projects that they've worked on. But other than that, you'll be so amazed what can happen when people just hop on a call with each other. You can really find just that hidden genius in people.
\n\nSo usually, when it comes to just diversity, it's like just hopping on a quick call with someone, anybody. Like you said, there are so many biases, but just being able to talk to them and see them as a human being can really just surprise you and surprise everybody. So really just, I always say just find that hidden genius through engaging with someone.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. So you've mentioned time to hire is a really important thing moving quickly in today's market when candidates have a lot of opportunity. What are some other ways, either trends or things that are happening in the market or things that you see changing?
\n\nANNA: Well, honey, I'm sure, as you know, there's been a huge amount of layoffs that have happened. Like, recently, about 17,000 workers were laid off from more than 70 tech startups globally in May, and that's been about a 350% jump from April. So I will say it's just due to inflation as well as just the slowing of demand. Startups right now are just really trying to just cut corners and just really trying to just hone in on their runway and their burn rate.
\n\nCHAD: Are the candidates that are being laid off finding new work quickly?
\n\nANNA: I'm not sure because it depends on the departments. We're working with engineering mostly in product. So it's really funny because as we are tracking the layoffs, we will contact candidates to see if they're interested in another opportunity. Because fortunately, for our client list, we haven't had anyone have a massive amount of layoffs which has been...we're so happy about that, fortunately. But we've actually contacted engineers. And it's amazing how strong the engineering department is. It does not seem like they really are...that's not a department where there's like significant layoffs because they just have to uphold that platform.
\n\nSo yeah, so it still is in terms of engineering surprising with all these layoffs. It still is just very much competitive because even the people who have or the companies that have encountered a large amount of layoffs those engineers are still wanting to stay or don't...there are some that may feel the need to depart at a certain point. But for the most part, they are staying. But in terms of how quickly, I'm not entirely sure in terms of for people that are laid off how quickly they are being hired because this is also within early-stage startups or not early-stage; they also have Fortune 500s too. But yeah, I'm not sure about that part.
\n\nBut in terms of engineering specifically, the jobs are still just growing. The projected growth rate for software engineers is like 22%, and data scientists is 22%, as well as web developers is 13%. So fortunately for us, as an agency who primarily specializes in engineering, there hasn't been a huge difference.
\n\nBut like I said, specifically with engineering, that time to hire is still super important because these candidates are still encountering offers quickly. And it's just a way to be competitive because if you're just the first offer, you're the first offer in their face instead of, let's say, they have two offers from another company and you're like at the last offer. It's such a big difference there.
\n\nCHAD: Are you seeing a lot of remote positions versus in-person positions?
\n\nANNA: Yes, remote is still going strong. I have seen that now there is a little bit of a trend of some startups or companies where you know because I research companies every day...I'll go on Crunchbase, Morning Brew, VentureBeat, TechCrunch, Built-In. I'll go on all of the websites, and I'm seeing who got a fresh new round of funding or who's highly growing, or any new products that companies are offering.
\n\nCHAD: You're seeing some companies say that they're hiring hybrid or in person.
\n\nANNA: I am seeing that on startups and companies' career pages, once they've acquired a new round of funding or they're scaling, that on the job boards, you'll start seeing only the headquarters, so just San Francisco or just maybe Boston instead of remote. So it's been a little bit more of a quiet transition because I remember when bigger companies were announcing it like, oh, we're going to transition in the office in February of 2022 or December of 2021, then there would all of a sudden be a mass exodus of people who were seeking remote opportunities.
\n\nBut I do still feel that remote is still going strong, especially for high-growth startups, you know, yeah, still going strong. There is the option of hybrid. With these engineers that do have these choices, 100% remote is really becoming a great selling point. I mean, I don't even know if it's really a selling point but just standard now.
\n\nCHAD: So that's what you're hearing from candidates. Candidates want that.
\n\nANNA: Definitely, candidates want. There's been plenty of candidates that we've interviewed where they've said in terms of their...because we'll ask them what would be their motivation for considering other opportunities and potentially leaving, and then they'll say, "X company is anticipating us to transition into the office, and I just don't want to do that." Their commute may be an hour, and that can be two even maybe three hours out of your day where you're spending your morning driving and then spending your evening driving.
\n\nSo people just prefer to be remote. Or people are located now in the Midwest. They're going back to their hometowns where they're able to instead of like these big metropolitan cities where now it's really hard to afford a house, so they're going back home and being able to enjoy their family there. So definitely it is a standard and people are really interested in it. And for companies that are having employees transition back into the office, we've consistently heard that there's just a mass exodus of people leaving.
\n\nCHAD: What have you seen compensation do over the last year-plus?
\n\nANNA: I would say for compensation, I mean, in my personal opinion, when it was super competitive, it was definitely increasing. Now I feel like we're working with a Fortune 500 company, so compensation hasn't really been too, too much of a problem. So yeah, it hasn't been as competitive. But I do remember when it was maybe around Q1 and Q2 2021 where there was almost this great rehire. And everybody was scaling, and demand was soaring where the salaries were just like, it just increased or were just consistently increasing. We were just so shocked at what some software engineers were making.
\n\nBut now, it seems to have potentially tamed a little bit. It's not as high as it probably used to be because we were working with that series B Company and their salaries were pretty good, pretty competitive. But all of a sudden, with the demand soaring and these engineers, it started getting even more competitive. Then that's when all of a sudden, you know, the first few placements were fine. And then, all of a sudden, each candidate, like I said, they would say they were passively looking and then the next week...
\n\nAnd this startup their time to hire was actually really great. But even with this competitive market, it was still hard because, like I said, a week later, they would already have an offer. And their salary would probably increase like 20,000-30,000 from their initial target base that they were seeking to now what they were being hired from other companies. So it would definitely increase. But I haven't seen that recently as much.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. I think also the trend to remote changed compensation, too, because it leveled it out. There were people who if you were trying to find a job in Kansas and you were going in an office, that market is very different than the U.S.-wide hiring market. But now, candidates are on the U.S.-wide hiring market. And I think that that brought up the lower end of salaries.
\n\nANNA: Oh yes. Because at first, it was like okay, we can look for...it was 100% remote, which was great, and so they were like, we can look for people in the Midwest. But during that time, companies were paying San Francisco and New York salaries, and they were offering those salaries to people who were located in Kansas and Iowa.
\n\nSo you would have engineers who were deep, deep in the Midwest who were asking for in terms of target for those metropolitan city salary budgets. And they would get it, which I think is great as well, just they are doing the same work as someone who is located in San Francisco or in New York but maybe with less overhead, of course. But it definitely was a little bit more of a challenge. And you can no longer assume that somebody located in the Midwest that may have lower salary bands aren't at those metropolitan city salary budgets now.
\n\nCHAD: Anna, thanks much for stopping by and sharing with us. I really I'm impressed by what you've accomplished so far. And I'm excited about what you're going to be able to do in the future.
\n\nANNA: Thank you. Thank you so much, again, for inviting me. I had a great time speaking with you, and it was so interesting hearing about your time being a consultancy. Because I know being an external vendor, it's really interesting interacting with clients when you're not internal. So that was really interesting hearing about the difference of clients that you're encountering at first versus now.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. If folks want to get in touch with Techie Staffing or get in touch with you, where are the best places for them to do that?
\n\nANNA: So in terms of contacting me, I'll say the best way would be either our website so www.techiestaffing.com. Or you can contact me on LinkedIn; my name is Anna Spearman, A-N-N-A S-P-E-A-R-M-A-N. I'm always active on LinkedIn. So if you're seeking a new opportunity either on the candidate side or either meeting, help and engaging Techie Staffing as a scaling company to fill your engineering, design, UX, and product roles, you can contact me on LinkedIn as well as filling out the forms on the Techie Staffing website. And we also are on Twitter @StaffingTechie. So definitely contact us, and we'd be happy to hear from you.
\n\nCHAD: Wonderful. You can subscribe to the show and find notes and a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter at @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks so much for listening, and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Anna Spearman.
Sponsored By:
Chelinde Edouard is Co-Founder and CEO of MustWatch, which connects people through television.
\n\nChad talks with Che about creating a social and user engagement platform that allows people to come back and constantly use an app without interrupting TV-watching experiences, how they use data to improve user experience, and fundraising and giving investors opportunities to help build out the app, increase marketing, and potentially build an Android version.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel, and with me today is Che Edouard, Co-Founder and CEO of MustWatch, which connects people through television. Che, thank you for joining me.
\n\nCHELINDE: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
\n\nCHAD: So astute listeners of the show will note maybe that name sounds familiar. And that's because you and MustWatch were mentioned on Episode 419, which was about the GK Fund with Michael Benezra. And I asked him for examples of the kinds of companies that he was excited about that they had given their grants to. And you're the one he called out, and so that jumped out at me. And thanks for joining the show.
\n\nCHELINDE: Thank you for having me. Really appreciate it. And I definitely want to shout out the GK Fund. They've definitely been a huge support to us since giving us the grant. And they're definitely leading the charge in this new avenue of racial inequality and helping startups in that fashion in Boston.
\n\nCHAD: So I'm curious; before we get too far down the road of where you're at today and how you got there, let's take a step back and just remind people what MustWatch is.
\n\nCHELINDE: Absolutely. MustWatch is an app that's on the App Store now. So even if you have an iPhone, you can download it. And it's an app that's revolving around TV. So it allows you to see what shows your friends watch, chat with them about them, and send recommendations all in one place. So we think of it as like a social hub for all of your TV needs.
\n\nCHAD: I think people who hear this might be like, oh, does this exist already? That kind of thing. And there are a couple of things a little bit like this, but it doesn't seem like there's really anything that's quite like this, right?
\n\nCHELINDE: Exactly. So a lot of the social TV apps and other services today focus on one feature, for example, chat or recommendations, or giving reviews about shows, or having a list of them. But our app, we do all of it in one place. So on our app, it can show which shows you like. You can also share with your friends directly; hey, you should go watch this show because I think you should like it.
\n\nWe also have this feature called watchlist, which is our natural social recommendations of here are all the shows that your friends are watching that you don't watch. And so it's a way to give people a way to find new shows without getting the same recommendations from Netflix and Hulu that are not really accurate today.
\n\nCHAD: How did you hit upon this idea?
\n\nCHELINDE: Actually, one of my high school friends, we were all brainstorming and coming up with ideas for companies. And then one day, he was at work, and he was trying to talk about Game of Thrones, but his boss wouldn't let him because he wasn't caught up on the season. He wasn't there.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nCHELINDE: So he was like, how do I find someone or talk to someone who's caught up to where I'm at so I can actually have a conversation? And so we brainstormed, and we tried to solve the problem of let's just create a spoiler-free chat kind of solution that would allow people to talk about shows that they're caught up on. And then that we've iterated and evolved, and that's kind of led to where we're at today.
\n\nCHAD: And when was that?
\n\nCHELINDE: That was, I want to say, 2014. That was when I graduated from BU. So in the summer of 2014, that's when we first had the idea. And then from there, we just brainstormed, had a bunch of meetings, and then just took a year in stealth mode trying to figure out how we wanted to create a business plan. And then, from there, we hit the ground running.
\n\nCHAD: You and your friend, what were your sort of core competencies, the two of you?
\n\nCHELINDE: I'm the tech background, so to speak, because, as I mentioned, I went to BU. My degree is in management information systems, which is basically business IT. So I was trying to leverage all my technology skills there and also my business skills to say how do we, one, build the app and two, create a business that can actually support it for the long term?
\n\nAnd he had more of the idea on the customer side of how can we create an experience or a user engagement platform that allows people to constantly come back and constantly want to find more reason to use our app? Because as we know, people watch the show on TV, but the app is a conduit to that. And so, we want to figure out a way to get people to constantly use our app but also not interrupt their TV-watching experience.
\n\nCHAD: So you said you're trying to figure out a business plan. You're refining the concept. At what point do you start making the leap to actually writing an app?
\n\nCHELINDE: With all apps, you start with this concept called wireframes, and so we built out a bunch of wireframes. Two of my friends from high school we all built the app together. And then one of them went to Miami, and his friend from Miami he's the one that actually helped us develop the app and code. And so we worked with him to actually say, "Hey, these are our wireframes. We're trying to make this into an app. Can you build it out?" And so, we worked with him over a year to make that a reality.
\n\nCHAD: And it took about a year to get to launch.
\n\nCHELINDE: We actually started on Android, and we were trying to create an MVP or prototype. And so we took that idea like I said, we were working for a year, to this company called Netcapital, which is a crowdfunding platform for startups and companies. And we launched on Netcapital in May of 2020. With that idea, we raised 50k in almost three months. And with that money, we actually built the app from there. And so the app you see in the App Store now is from the money that we've raised on Netcapital.
\n\nCHAD: Did you throw away that original version and start over?
\n\nCHELINDE: I wouldn't say throw away. We kind of used it as a launching point. But we don't have any Android version right now. We're strictly in iOS.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that was notable to me. Tell me more about that.
\n\nCHELINDE: So going from Android to iOS it was really a business decision there because our developer had knowledge in Android but didn't have the iOS background. And so when we went on Netcapital, we used that money to actually hire a real development team. That's who's building our app now. So we work with them to build our app. And going to iOS has allowed us to, at least in the meantime, expand in the U.S. market a lot quicker.
\n\nCHAD: Now, are they building it in first-party frameworks only for iOS, or are they using something that is going to allow you to go expand to Android in the future?
\n\nCHELINDE: So right now, we're strictly iOS only. We would like to move to a React Native or a tool that allows us to promote to both. When we first started, we wanted to just focus on iOS, given our costs.
\n\nCHAD: These are common problems that a lot of startups or common decisions that a lot of startups have to make. And it's not always straightforward. Were you worried about this?
\n\nCHELINDE: Yes. Because that's one of the things now it's we would love to have an Android version. But for me, being more of a purist, I didn't want the code to work in one system and not another. And given that we only had...in my mind, it's like you have one shot to make an impression. And when you go out and launch it on the App Store, I didn't want it to be half-baked in one and half-baked in the other. I'd rather have one be exactly how we want it to look, and then we can adapt as we grow.
\n\nCHAD: How has it been working for you, then?
\n\nCHELINDE: So far, so good. We're actually in the process of releasing some new features later this month, and so like I said, the watchlist feature, which allows you to add shows that you're going to watch in the future. We also have the ability to create chats through the chat functionality because previously, you had to create a new chat every single time. So we've made it easier for people to start chats, and also you can do group chats as well. So it's not just individuals. You can have a whole group of people in one conversation.
\n\nCHAD: So some of these features there must be a backend server powering all of this, right?
\n\nCHELINDE: Yes. So we use the Google Cloud Firestore for our backend. And another cool part about our app is we have a lot of analytics about what people are watching. And that's where we take their data from our cloud, the Google Cloud Firestore, and we send it to the BigQuery, also a Google platform. And then we use the Google Analytics that we have on the app to then do our reports around who's watching what, top 10 shows for the past month, the top 10 shows based on if you're male or female, based on what age group. So we have all the analytics on the viewing habits from the data that we've collected.
\n\nCHAD: Can you tell me how many users you have now?
\n\nCHELINDE: As of right now, we are at 820. We are looking to obviously get a little bit over to that 1,000 users mark, and then we can have a better sense of what kind of insights we can glean from there.
\n\nCHAD: Well, hopefully, coming on this show will help you do that. So if you're listening and this sounds interesting to you, where are the best places...so people can search for MustWatch on the App Store, the iOS App Store?
\n\nCHELINDE: Yep. And we also have a website mustwatch.com if people want to check that out as well.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, so let's do it. Let's push them over the top and get those numbers up. I'm curious about usage patterns. Are you able to see any patterns in terms of what causes people to either keep using the app or not?
\n\nCHELINDE: Yeah. So the main thing that keeps people using the app is having chat groups with people and then also getting recommendations. Like I mentioned before, we have the social recommendations of people just showing you what shows people watch. But there's also direct one-to-one. If you're on the app, I could send you a recommendation. And that's what drives a lot of people to go on the app and find new shows.
\n\nAnother thing that we see is a lot of people just searching, just looking up the shows that are on the app because our database of shows is actually pretty robust. I was talking to someone yesterday; he's Korean. And he was using his phone to type in a show. And he was using a Korean keyboard, and the show came up. And he was like, "Oh wow, I didn't even know you guys support multiple languages." And I was like, "Yes, we support." Our database of shows is very expansive. So if you're in Korea, if you're in Japan, if you like anime, if you like telenovelas, we have all types of shows on our app as well.
\n\nCHAD: Do you get that database from somewhere?
\n\nCHELINDE: Yeah, so there's actually a TV show API called TMDB, which pretty much is an open-source, free database that you can pull from. So we use that as our source for shows.
\n\nCHAD: That's cool. Speaking of shows, I noticed on the MustWatch website, on the team page, you all list your favorite shows and what you're currently watching. I think you and I have different tastes in shows. [laughter] I have heard of the shows that are your favorite, but I have not watched any of them.
\n\nCHELINDE: Oh wow. [laughs] What are your favorite shows?
\n\nCHAD: I think actually my shows match the shows listed by Rob, your CFO.
\n\nCHELINDE: Oh wow. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: And my all-time favorite show is, I think, The Leftovers.
\n\nCHELINDE: Okay. So yeah, and that's the cool thing about this app is like, if you're on the app, you would see Rob's shows on the app too. Because if you download the app, you become friends with all of us immediately, so you have friends on there to start.
\n\nCHAD: Oh, that's a cool idea.
\n\nCHELINDE: So it gives you a way to just see what the app can look like before...because if you're on there by yourself as one person, it's a social app. It's meant to be with people. It doesn't really give you that clarity. So I bring that up because that's the one cool thing about the app is you always are surprised by what shows people watch, even if they're your friend. It's like, oh, I didn't know you would like that show. Or oh, I liked that show, and you don't like that show.
\n\nAnd it's a very cool icebreaker or just a social connection that you can make because everyone's putting shows on the app. And one way, actually...I was talking to someone the other day thinking about how like Spotify, you put all your playlists and all your shows. This app is kind of like a Spotify but for TV shows and also for movies. So it's not just shows, movies as well.
\n\nCHAD: And the cool things that Spotify does in terms of the reports that they release annually to each individual person and everything. Like, that's all stuff you can do too.
\n\nCHELINDE: Yep.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, it's cool. So your background actually is in sort of business intelligence, data analysis, and analyst, right?
\n\nCHELINDE: Yes, that's correct. For my day job...I just want to back up. I also have a day job while also doing this. And I've primarily been the past couple of years a BI analyst. So previously, I was at HarbourVest, which is a private equity firm here in Boston. And then, I recently joined Liberty Mutual Investments also as BI data analyst. So I've been very involved in the financial services side of data analytics, which has allowed me to just get other insights on how technology works and just also getting exposure to the whole industry as well.
\n\nCHAD: So you basically have two reasons why you want to get the number of users up. One is from a co-founder perspective and founder perspective; you want to get the number of users up. But from a data perspective, you want to get the users up so that you have more data to play with.
\n\nCHELINDE: Exactly, exactly. The more users we have, the more data we can collect. And then data we can glean insights, and then provide value to our customers as well. Because our app users, if we can know which shows they are liking, we can also then tell them about shows that they also might like. Because once you find commonalities in shows that people are liking, you can then give them better recommendations.
\n\nAnd we think that the social aspect of our app, the fact that we have all of your friends on there and they're giving you recommendations, it's better than just, oh, you've watched this show in the past three years, and it's on Netflix's algorithm of watched shows. That, to us, doesn't really seem as insightful and helpful to people.
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\n\nCHAD: So you mentioned you have another job in addition to all this work you've been doing on MustWatch. How has that been? You know, starting a company, working on it while also having a full-time job elsewhere?
\n\nCHELINDE: Yeah, it's definitely been, I guess, one of the challenging things I would say. It's definitely been rewarding. It takes a lot of time management, I would say, because you have to balance your day job and manage something on the side. I think the biggest hurdle I had was when we were first launching the app on the App Store, meeting with developers, and trying to fundraise all at the same time because I was just pressed for time.
\n\nBecause of the COVID, COVID happened right when we were launching. So working from home all day everyday kind of helped because I didn't have an hour commute anymore. So I got two hours back in my day. So I could, instead of going to work and just commuting, I had an hour in the morning and an hour after. I could use that time for MustWatch. But I had to definitely sacrifice some of my social life to make that happen.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nCHAD: I assume that you have the plans that you would hope that things with MustWatch get to the point where you could do it full time.
\n\nCHELINDE: Yes. The goal is to get MustWatch to a point where we can pay our employees and have salaries, and everyone can just be working from the company. But as everyone knows, if you're in a startup, you got to just not pay yourself and make sure everything goes into the company. How I see it is you can't pay yourself until everything else is working.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I mean, people hear the startup stories of raising a whole bunch of money, working exclusively on it, having more than enough. I think that that's actually not necessarily the norm; that's the outlier. I think it's more common, more widespread to do what you're doing, to have an idea, and to be working on it and growing it while also holding down another job.
\n\nCHELINDE: Because as we all know, the bills need to be paid, [laughs] and those don't go away. But I didn't want to give up on the dream. So if you want to make it happen, you can make it happen because while I was at HarbourVest, I also was at Babson getting my master's degree in business analytics. So at one point in time, I was working full-time at grad school and doing MustWatch. To me, that was probably the most busiest period of my life, but I did get through it. [laughs] But definitely took a lot, but now we're here. And we've gotten support from the GK Fund, and I couldn't be happier with where the future lies ahead.
\n\nCHAD: One of the things about the GK Fund is that it's a grant. It's not an investment where you're giving up part of your company in order to do it, which I think is really important, especially for very early-stage companies, not to have to give away a significant portion of their company just to get some angel investment or that startup fund. I assume that's one of the reasons why it's been a big impact for you.
\n\nCHELINDE: Absolutely. I mean, one, having it not be an investment was a lifesaver for us. At the time, we were still trying to figure out how to just get cash to get to the next stage. And so, for us, a grant was literally the blessing or a miracle at the perfect timing because it allowed us to...it gave us a little kickstart.
\n\nBecause I mean, as everyone knows, if you're a startup, you're always low on cash. And you're always trying to decide what's the best way to move the company forward? And that just gave us that breathing room without having to worry about paying it back, or a timetable to now let us actually grow and do what we can do best.
\n\nCHAD: Do you hope to take a more traditional investment in the future?
\n\nCHELINDE: Yes. So we're actually planning to do another fundraising on Netcapital. This time we're planning to raise $450,000. And that's going to help us build out the app, increase our marketing, and then potentially also build an Android version.
\n\nCHAD: So I'm not sure that everyone who's listening will know what Netcapital actually is.
\n\nCHELINDE: Yep. So Netcapital is a crowdfunding equity platform which allows retail investors to directly invest in startups. So if you're looking for another way to get into early-stage companies, Netcapital is a great place to do that. It's similar to if you've heard of StartEngine. It's a similar concept to that. And it's mainly you pretty much buy shares in a company, and then that company will then take that money to then use it for the funds that they have set in their offering. And you actually get an equity stake in the company.
\n\nAnd so, for us, it's great because typically, those types of fundraising opportunities don't come for us. You need to have VC-backed or some kind of angel investor to get to that level. But having it be open to everybody, there's a larger pool of retail investors that allow you to get to where you need to go. Because if you can get a couple of your family, friends around to give you like a hundred or a couple thousand, it's definitely a better avenue than just going the VC route or just getting a loan from a grant or a startup, an SBA loan, something like that.
\n\nCHAD: Traditionally, something like Netcapital was not really possible. But my understanding is that in 2016, the laws changed to allow smaller investments and get actual equity and for companies to offer it in such a way that wasn't possible before.
\n\nCHELINDE: Yes, I believe it's called a Reg CF, Regulation Crowdfunding, and that was the law that was passed in 2016. And that is crucial to us being able to have an offering on Netcapital.
\n\nCHAD: So it's not like Kickstarter where, you know, in Kickstarter, you're offering a new product or something, and people aren't becoming investors in your actual company. Netcapital is they are actual investors. And so, as an entrepreneur, as a company, what do your obligations to those investors look like?
\n\nCHELINDE: So because they're investors, we have to give them quarterly updates. We have to file our annual report. We have to disclose any conflict of interest. There's a whole SEC team that has to approve and review any offering that goes on the platform to make sure that we are following all SEC guidelines. And then also, we are liable because they're investors. So they can email us. They can reach out to us, and we will respond because they are our shareholders. [chuckles] And so we need to make sure they're happy as well.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, with one of the things that Netcapital does is it sort of works like Kickstarter in that if you don't meet the goals that you've set, it doesn't actually happen.
\n\nCHELINDE: Yep, there's a minimum investment threshold, so it depends on how much money you're raising. So last time, when we raised 50k, the minimum was 10k. So if we didn't get over $10,000, all the investors would get their money back. But if we got over that threshold, then that's the money that we would be able to use for our company.
\n\nCHAD: 450,000 is significantly more than 50,000. What do you feel like you need to do in order to make sure that you hit the goal?
\n\nCHELINDE: So one thing is going on podcasts like this to make sure that people know about it. [laughter] Secondly, we're actually going to be partnering with the GK Fund to do some more media exposure there. And then we're also partnering with Silicon Valley Bank because they're actually our partners on the banking side. And so, I'm going to be partnering with their network to leverage their connections as well. And then we're also going to be just doing the classic social media, posting on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, friends, or family. All avenues of media we will be pushing out MustWatch.
\n\nCHAD: When do you expect to open up that listing?
\n\nCHELINDE: We're targeting mid-July right now. So that's when we're planning on going live on Netcapital pending the compliance review and all the other legal stuff, but that's when we plan to go live.
\n\nCHAD: Okay, well, if you're listening to this episode, it's going to be going live in a couple of weeks. And so definitely follow along and check it out. Cool. Well, what are your goals for that next funding round? What do you expect to use it for?
\n\nCHELINDE: We expect to use our funding round on improving the iOS experience, so adding more features because we've gotten some customer feedback. And we have a laundry list or a backlog of items we want to add but obviously limited by cash constraints. So once we have the money, we can do what we want to do.
\n\nAnd then we also would like to improve our marketing. So we want to have a real marketing team and improve our SEO. And then we also have a connection with Hollywood. So the writer for Ford and Ferrari, his name is Jason Keller is on our team. And we want to see how we can get our foot in the door with Hollywood as well.
\n\nCHAD: That's really cool. What would that look like in your ideal scenario?
\n\nCHELINDE: Ideally, we'd have some celebrities or Hollywood A-listers on the app using MustWatch and then promoting their shows or promoting our app in one of their media engagements as well.
\n\nCHAD: Or chatting with people about the episode that just came out and that kind of thing. That'd be really cool.
\n\nCHELINDE: Yeah, exactly. We want to get people to just engage on the app with celebrities as well. That's definitely one of the avenues we were thinking as well.
\n\nCHAD: One of the big trends right now is TV companies making companion podcasts to the shows that they make. I can totally see them doing this kind of thing as well.
\n\nCHELINDE: As we all know, user engagement and fan engagement is crucial for these companies, and MustWatch would be a crucial way for a lot of companies to connect easily.
\n\nCHAD: This is a little bit of an aside, but I was sort of surprised that you were able to get mustwatch.com.
\n\nCHELINDE: It was not cheap. [laughter] I think for some people who were following us for a while, when we first launched, our name was WatchParty. And that's how we originally started our company. But as we evolved, Facebook released a watch party feature; Hulu, Amazon all have these watch party features, and they weren't exactly like our company. And we didn't want to get any confusion in branding. And so we had a long discussion around what name do we change to, and how do we still convey the right feel for the app, and what we want to do?
\n\nBecause on our app, you're not watching the show on our app, I want to make that very clear. It's all about finding a new show, chatting, and connecting with people, but you're not watching on the app. And so it's tough to...not tough, but we wanted to make sure that people knew that the app was for finding new shows. But also, it has to be like a must-watch. Like, I need to go watch this right now because it's something really good. And so that's how we came across this name.
\n\nCHAD: You mentioned earlier on that expenses are tight when you're working on something new. How worried were you about spending money on a domain name?
\n\nCHELINDE: So this is also where our partnership with Netcapital came into play because they helped us in terms of getting us off the ground. And we work with them on the business side as well. And this is one of the avenues where they helped support us.
\n\nCHAD: Oh, wow. Wow. It's great that you're able to pull together these different resources and get that support.
\n\nCHELINDE: Yeah, to us, it's been crucial because, without the support, it's very tough to get your name out there. It's very tough to promote the idea. And so, with Netcapital and the GK Fund, it definitely puts us in a better light than usual.
\n\nCHAD: Well, Che, I really wish you the best and MustWatch the best and your whole team. And good luck over the next few weeks as you open up this round on Netcapital. I ask everybody, again, go check out the app. Sometimes we talk to companies of all different stages on the show. And I especially think it's important when we have someone that's just getting started really trying to hit these user numbers that if people could go check it out, that'd be great.
\n\nCHELINDE: Really appreciate it.
\n\nCHAD: If folks want to follow along with you, get in touch with you, that kind of thing, where are all the different places where they can do that?
\n\nCHELINDE: Reach out to me on LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn, Che Edouard. You can reach out to us on mustwatch.com. We have a contact us email there. You can also email me at che@mustwatch.com if you want to reach out. I am available on all platforms.
\n\nCHAD: Wonderful. And you can subscribe to the show and find notes and a complete transcript for the episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks so much for listening, and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
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Geronda Wollack-Spiller is the DEI Program Manager at thoughtbot.
\n\nChad talks with Geronda about implementing a successful Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion program at the company by providing a culture of belonging, the challenges, in particular, the tech industry faces, and acknowledging that many of us work in spaces where when we're bringing someone onto a team who has underrepresented identities, they might be the only one. How do we create a space that's as inclusive as possible?
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Geronda Wollack-Spiller, the DEI Program Manager at thoughtbot. Geronda, thank you so much for joining me.
\n\nGERONDA: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
\n\nCHAD: In honor of Pride Month, we're doing something extra special for this episode in addition to just having you as an extra special guest. We're recording live in front of thoughtbot remotely. We've got a whole bunch of people watching. I can hear them cheering off in the distance for you as you make your debut on the podcast.
\n\nGERONDA: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Thanks for joining me.
\n\nGERONDA: Thank you. Nice. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: So you joined thoughtbot as our first ever DEI program manager back...when was it?
\n\nGERONDA: Oh, April, yeah, April fourth.
\n\nCHAD: It's been a whirlwind few months. Thank you already for all of the contributions that you've made to the company already.
\n\nGERONDA: Oh, thank you. No problem.
\n\nCHAD: Tell us a little bit about your role. And then I can provide some fill-in terms of what we were thinking when we added this. But let's start with sharing a little bit about your role.
\n\nGERONDA: A lot of my role is about...so it's a lot of understanding the processes that we have, people operations processes, and really thinking about how do we provide more of a...or improve our ability to provide a culture of belonging. And so a lot of what I do is I will partner across with people operations, and I'll look at things like promotions, and who are we promoting? Who are we hiring? Improvements to performance management processes. How are we giving feedback? Who are our managers?
\n\nAnd a lot of what I'll do, too, is execute against the goals that were set by our DEI Council before I had joined, which the council is great. And I'll look to see are there different ways that we should be looking at goals? So one of the things that I'm doing right now is I'm building out a multi-year roadmap for DEI. And I'm incorporating a lot of the goals that the council has already put together, which has been super great. And I want to create a space that feels like a safer or brave space for anyone to come to me with concerns, questions, suggestions.
\n\nAnd I partner a lot with different groups to be able to understand their needs and make sure that we are voicing and amplifying historically marginalized groups but also providing a lot of the education around what DEI means and how we can do that in our everyday jobs. So I am co-chair of the DEI Council. I support that council to take on different projects, build out task force, work with everyone across the company to contribute, and infuse diversity, equity, and inclusion within the company. So that's a lot of what I do. [laughs] Other things involved, but that gives you kind of a high level of my role.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's great. I've talked before on the show about the DEI Council in a few different episodes, mostly in passing. And overall, when we started on...the concept of a council came from some consultants that we had worked with previously to do an audit. They provided us with a few different suggestions about how we could continue on from that audit and take action.
\n\nAnd one of the things, especially with our geographic studios, the way that we used to be organized the idea of one person from each of those studios coming together on a council to work together and then bring the work back to their studios for action really resonated with us as a structure that could work pretty well for us given the structure. We've obviously since gone completely remote. And the council is no longer specifically tied to those individual teams or those offices that we no longer have.
\n\nBut the council is still that, a group of people from a wide array across the company who come together and focus on and organize our work around diversity, equity, and inclusion. And we saw the opportunity in your role to have someone provide continuity and organization and experience to the council to help make it even more effective at thoughtbot. And I think we're just getting started with that. But I think it's been very positive overall, your addition, and like I said at the top of the show, thank you again for your contribution so far.
\n\nGERONDA: [laughs] No problem. Thank you for hiring me. Thanks.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] Well, speaking of hiring, you've done a few different things over the years. And I'm curious; you started in more general human resources roles. Was it a goal from the beginning of your career to move into a DEI role, or did that evolve along the way?
\n\nGERONDA: Ooh, interesting question. Yeah, it actually evolved along the way. I thought I would be an HR project manager and I would be leading projects across global companies. And when I started in my career, I was an HR operations analyst, and I was doing a lot of the HR product management. But what I discovered is every single time that I would be in a role, I kept looking at things from a DEI lens without realizing that I was. And then, as I started continuing to do that, I fell in love with it. And I was like, okay, this is my place of where I want to be.
\n\nSo even though I was doing projects related to HR, if I would do recruiting operations, I would look at okay, well, who are we actually targeting, and who are we hiring? And what are the opportunities and gaps? Then I worked in the education space, and I would look at, well, how are we actually...like, what types of demographics are we bringing to the schools? So I would do things in my role that were very diversity, equity, inclusion-focused even though I was an HR product manager or in operations.
\n\nAnd I started realizing I really loved more of the diversity, equity, and inclusion side of things. So instead of continuing to get roles in HR, I was like, I have to get a role in DEI because that's where my passion lended itself more so. I made that decision from my last company that the next role I have, I will not take it unless it's DEI-focused. So it developed and evolved over time.
\n\nCHAD: Some people might have the thought...I have to confess sometimes I've also had this thought as like, why can't just DEI be weaved through everything HR does or through everything everybody thinks about all of the time? Why do you need a specific DEI person at a company? And I've come to understand that it's hard to do that. [laughter] But I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that.
\n\nGERONDA: It is challenging because you also have to think of it as everybody is in a different place with diversity, equity, and inclusion, which is not necessarily a bad thing. But there are some people who are incredibly passionate about it. And then there are others that are aware of it, but they may want to just kind of focus on their job. Or they might think, well, we just need to treat everybody the same. Like, why is that so hard?
\n\nSo because everyone's in different places in their level of understanding and the importance of it, it does get tricky to think of things in that lens, especially in your day-to-day job. Your priorities change consistently. So you might be working on a project here. But then you're now shifting to a new team, and you're shifting to all these different places. And it does become challenging to keep it top of mind for a lot of people in the company.
\n\nAnd so I think that the overall almost resolution to that is the more that you start to continue to talk about it, the more that you have accountability. And you're training people like leadership and managers and everyone to be aware of what it means, and what the language is, and how you can think of these things. It takes time, but then it slowly starts to get easier. Sometimes there is an understandable fear of I don't know where to begin, and I don't know what I don't know. I don't want to make a mistake. I don't know how to look at this. And should I be looking at this?
\n\nBut I think that when there is a lot of the understanding from the leadership level, and it goes down to managers, and you start to infuse it across different spaces, it does come a little bit easier. So I'll say what I like a lot of what thoughtbot does is there's a lot of open communication and transparency around things like goals, around hiring, and trainings that we maybe want to offer. So I do think it can be hard. I don't think that you can also get every single person involved in an expertise level. And you shouldn't expect anyone to be an expert, but starting to think about their job and how this could impact themselves or others, it does take some time.
\n\nCHAD: And I already alluded to this earlier, but I think we have an additional challenge which is because the majority of us are all on client work all the time and consultants, that through-line, that continuity of when we identify something, really having someone who can be that continuous force, an organization as people rotate through the council or as people's workload with client work or attention ebbs and flows. I think that that is one of the additional challenges that we have that you help with.
\n\nGERONDA: Yeah. And the rotations on the council are super helpful as well and then creating a space for anyone to come to you with questions. I like that we have this anonymous forum where you can submit a question if you're not comfortable asking it publicly, whether it's you want to learn more or something's going on that you want to talk through. I think that's also very, very helpful.
\n\nAnd just continuously educating and giving the space for the practical implementation of what you're trying and what you're doing will also give you a little bit more of that comfortability rather than learning about something and then hoping that you're doing it well. So it's challenging, but we'll get there, and it's worth it. [laughs] And every company has these types of challenges, so it's not unique.
\n\nCHAD: So you didn't originally start off working in the tech space. And so I'm curious what you've learned or seen that either is good or bad about the tech space in particular, what challenges this industry has. And it is Pride Month, so I guess there's a lens, particularly of LGBTQ+ challenges. Is tech particularly challenging?
\n\nGERONDA: Yeah, I think as an industry, it's particularly challenging. So I worked in education, as I mentioned. I worked in the optometry industry, which I will say has very significant challenges just for the industry itself. But tech is challenging. I think there are moves that are being made in tech. But what I'm starting to notice in terms of challenges for the LGBTQ+ community is a lot of things where there is this sometimes perception, depending on how visible you may be, that you are qualified and not qualified.
\n\nAnd what I mean by that is for the trans community or the transgender community, in particular, it can be very challenging because you may not what they call pass as the gender that you are looking to reassign yourself to. So if you are male, and I hear this a lot from other people, is if I'm male and I want to transition to female, I may still be going through the process. So when somebody looks at me, I might still present masculine features. And there is this misconception or this uncomfortability that I may not be qualified to do a job.
\n\nSo in the tech space as well, it's really hard during the hiring process sometimes to be taken seriously because of how you might look or how you might present yourself. I will say that in a lot of spaces, the culture in a company in tech what I've noticed is it has this generally casual feeling to it and a sense of you can come in, and you'll be taken seriously. And you can meet with different groups.
\n\nBut I think what I've noticed is when you're trying to get into tech, there are not a lot of people that are similar to you. And it's really hard to find those types of people because not everyone's going to be out. There are assumptions that are made that if a woman's hair is short, she must be lesbian. So we misgender people.
\n\nAnd when going into the tech space, I think that there's a hesitation because you don't necessarily see a customer base similar to you or other team members similar to you. There could be those things like mental health challenges because you don't know if you can come out in a space, or you don't know if you're going to come out, and that could affect your role.
\n\nSo a lot of times, you'll hear and what I've been hearing in the tech space, is those who are transgender are usually the only ones on a team that are transgender. If you look at also for the LGBTQ+ community, you have to also consider the varying identities that come with a person. So an experience for a Black woman who is queer could be very different than a white male who is gay. So there are those different identities.
\n\nSo the vulnerability piece, and in the hiring process, and going into tech, you already hear what's going on and the challenges that are happening for the community. So you may be hesitant or might be a little bit fearful of what that would look like. I think in the tech space as well, a lot of executive leaders or managers are predominantly cis-gendered white males. So when you see that, and there's not as much representation at the top, you kind of have that sense, and you wonder, is this a place that I feel like I can belong and have a generally safe experience?
\n\nAnd then the skill set, too, I think what I've been hearing, and what I've been reading and just researching, and what I've been noticing just speaking to other people is the promotion opportunity for those in the community feels like you have to work much harder to get known and be visible because a lot of times, you may want to promote people that are similar to you. So if you have teams that are more cisgendered White males, you may find that those teams are not as diverse. And the industry itself, I do feel like it is becoming more diverse. I think Lesbians Who Tech, for example, was a conference that I'm so glad that you let me attend because -- [laughter]
\n\nCHAD: I didn't let you. That's not permission, or rather I encouraged you to attend.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nGERONDA: Better wording. Thank you, Chad. You encouraged me to attend, and you're encouraging me to attend the one in October. But just seeing in my experience and looking at the tech space, I wasn't sure what the demographic would look like. But going to that conference and then going to the one...I'm in Seattle, Washington, and there was a local one in Seattle, Washington. There were hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of gay men, lesbians, transgender, and I didn't even realize that there were so many of us in the community in that space. And it was fantastic and amazing to see.
\n\nBut I think visibility is another piece that we're struggling with because you want to be able to amplify those voices and give those opportunities. So that's what I'm seeing a lot in the tech space. I do think that we're improving in those areas. But those are the challenges that I see in that space.
\n\nCHAD: To go back to one thing that you said, this idea of being the only one puts people in a difficult position. And I think because tech as an industry is not that diverse, to begin with, you end up with that in a lot of different identities, not just LGBTQ+. If you are historically underrepresented or have historically underrepresented identities, it's really likely that you're going to be the only one and especially the intersection of your identities. If you have multiple underrepresented identities, then it's very likely that you might be the only one.
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\n\nCHAD: As leaders, as companies, as a community that wants to do better, let's solve it all right now, Geronda.
\n\nGERONDA: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: No, we're not going to solve it all now. But what are some ways...like acknowledging that many of us work in spaces where we might not have...or when we're bringing someone onto the team who has underrepresented identities, they might be the only one. How do we make a space that's as inclusive as possible for that person?
\n\nGERONDA: The big thing that I always like to say is try not to put all of the work on that person to solve it for themselves. And when they come in, I think what's really great and what I've seen work well is having that initial conversation with that person who's joining, get to know them first, and give them an opportunity to say, "If there's anything that you would love to have here or anything that you find challenging, I want you to feel that you can come to me. You can go to HR or DEI program manager, whoever."
\n\nSo it's providing that space to say if you need support in feeling comfortable, whether it's in your job or just you as an individual, I want to offer that. And so please be as open as you can with me. And it's providing those different spaces to amplify the voice of that person. So, in meetings, if you're noticing maybe that they are more reserved or hesitant to speak, ask for their opinion if they're okay with that. Recognizing the great work that they've done, giving a lot of that recognition, and then also offering different ways that they can get the community that they want.
\n\nSo what I love is that we have Slack, and we've started ERGs. And so that gives you a lot of opportunity. We have a Slack channel for the LGBTQ+ ERG. But we also have a private channel for LGBTQ so that we can talk about things that are working, not working, working well. And definitely getting their experience and looking for ways that you can involve them and recognize them and continuing to check in with them.
\n\nSo regular one-on-one checking could just be how are things going? How are you feeling being a part of this team? What are some things that we can do differently to make you feel welcome? And that's a question that you can ask everybody so that it's not feeling like you're just targeting that one person. So asking those questions and checking in with that person is really helpful. And then, considering the people that are coming in, how are things like benefits being provided? So things like if somebody who's transgender comes in or an employee decides they want to transition, are we providing gender-affirming care as part of benefits?
\n\nSo those are different ways that we can have them be included and offering up the things that we provide that could potentially be a community like Slack, like the DEI Council, like having those different conversations. And when you start to do things like this, like us doing this pride event, that is pretty significant. We didn't just slap a logo on LinkedIn and just say, "Oh, okay, Happy Pride." We had lightning talks. We get education. We learned about the community. You're having me on here to talk more about it. We're doing a big celebration.
\n\nAnd so that in itself is a pretty critical step. But it is checking in and learning about the person and asking pretty frequently their experience, how they're feeling, their needs, and then looking to increase that diversity over time on that team so that you're not feeling tokenized as that person and always being the only. So those are things that I would suggest.
\n\nCHAD: One maybe misconception or feeling that people might have...and I think it starts in the hiring process because you're not supposed to talk about these things in the hiring process. You're not allowed, at least in the United States, to ask someone their sexual orientation during the hiring process. Or if someone was transgender and you're interviewing them, it certainly should be a topic that you as a hiring manager don't bring up during the interview. So my sense is, and speaking personally but also broadly, it can then feel like you're not supposed to talk about those things once the person joins either. Why is that wrong?
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nGERONDA: So a couple of things I'll say about that is so if somebody brings it up, that can open up the conversation. I'm very open at the fact that I have a wife and that I'm lesbian. And I purposely do that, personally, to see what the reaction is going to be and what the company is going to offer. So I can determine if I feel like this is going to be a good space for me. I think that when you're having an interview, it's just like for anyone who may not be in the community. You don't really necessarily ask someone if they're married or "Are you having children?"
\n\nYou don't necessarily ask like, "Do you fall in this community?" or "Talk about transgender." Because a lot of times, there is this feeling of I have no idea what this space is going to feel like for me. I'm not going to out myself, and you may even out somebody who may not be out in their professional or their personal life yet. And you want to provide that comfortable space. But you don't want to do that either because then that person and across other interviewing spectrums bias can amplify a lot. And you can mislabel someone's gender. You might use the wrong pronouns, and pronouns are always optional.
\n\nSo I always say look at the person for their experience and what you want to learn more about relating to the job. Of course, you want to learn about them a little bit more personally as well. But it is more harm to try to identify their identity because that could lead to bias and could ultimately lead to discrimination because you don't know what that person's view is in the interview process either.
\n\nCHAD: But once someone joins your team and assuming that they're open about their identities, and this applies to all identities, I think, then quote, unquote "treating everybody the same or ignoring people's identities actually does the reverse of what people intend." It makes an environment where people feel like they don't belong, that the identities that they have or what are important to them aren't recognized. And so you're not recognizing the person's full self, and you're not accommodating it and trying to build an inclusive environment. It could actually backfire if you intentionally ignore people's identities, right?
\n\nGERONDA: Yes. So it can backfire if you ignore the identities, especially the identities that have been shared openly. So if I'm going to fill out a survey, let's say where identify myself as part of our hiring process, as a manager, I may not say, "Hey, I noticed that you checked off that you're transgender. How can I support you?" But it is going through the onboarding process and other areas to say here's what we offer from ERGs to benefits, to how we work, how we work as a team.
\n\nAnd if that person does disclose that they're transgender, or they're in the LGBTQ+ community, or they mention their culture or what have you, you can then direct them in the right places to say, "Oh, we actually do have this LGBTQ+ ERG if you're interested. I know you may be talked about it in the onboarding process. If you're open to it, you can definitely join us, and here's how." And then, over time, it is really thinking about you may not know the identities of your team but taking time to do things in practice that would touch upon all identities.
\n\nSo when you're thinking about having team conversations, there may be somebody on your team who is neurodiverse. They might have autism, or they might have ADHD. And how you're communicating...then you start to think about meetings. Do you just do Google Meet meetings? Do you just do Typeform meetings? You have to think about different learning styles and for different identities. Like it's Pride Month right now, just saying Happy Pride Month to everybody. And they may then be open to sharing more about their identity and sharing the activities that are happening in Pride Month, and encouraging them to do things on the council.
\n\nSo you want to make decisions that could think about different identities, even if you may not know what those identities are. And I also think it's being proactive and being ready that you might have those identities. So things like I had mentioned where you might be providing gender-affirming care, or you might look at your parental leave policies and other things that you have available for that.
\n\nSo I would say without knowing the identity, I think over time, as you build trust that [inaudible 28:24] start to develop and come out. But it's also if somebody's coming to you in confidence with something, really taking that very, very seriously. If I, God forbid, came to you, Chad, and was like, "Chad, I'm coming out to you. I am lesbian, but I'm not comfortable with sharing with everybody else." I would trust that you wouldn't share that amongst other people. So that's another piece to that as well.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's a really good point. I think as people in that position, in management positions, we need proper training around those kinds of situations to ensure that we handle them well. I think training is an important part of being a manager but also just DEI in general training and equipping everybody.
\n\nGERONDA: Yes. Having a common language across the board and a common understanding across the board is very important. Because when you think of diversity, equity, and inclusion, everybody may have varying understandings of what those mean. Some people may not know what those mean, and so having that common language across the board and understanding. And then yes, training, of course, and opportunities for you to then practice that training in spaces and getting feedback along the way.
\n\nCHAD: So I imagine that there are a lot of people listening who this is really important to them. It's an important topic or a place where they want to make improvement for themselves or their company. They might not have a lot of support or resources at their company. There might not be a DEI Council already. And I know every company is different. Every team is different. But are there some things that individuals or leaders might start thinking about or doing specifically if they're just getting started with this?
\n\nGERONDA: So if you're just getting started, I always say there are a lot of great resources out there for you to consider. So whether that's a book...LinkedIn has really great training on just understanding DEI and how to be an inclusive leader or work in an inclusive environment. But I would say a really great place to start is if you don't have this already, think about what your demographic looks like. And what are some things that other companies may be doing? So joining different channels and saying, "We're at the beginning stages. What are some things that we can do?"
\n\nBut I think what's most helpful to start is you have to gauge where you are as a company and understand your people and the demographic and do something that allows for an open discussion and open forum to get perspectives from other people. So I know things like listening tours where you might talk to different departments or different teams. Or if a company is small enough like our company, you can meet with each person and then think about what are some common themes that you're seeing? That can also create a great space for that.
\n\nI'd also say you can put out a survey to see what the experience is. So if you are doing things like engagement surveys, you can absolutely include things in there about what do you think we're missing? What would you hope to see? But I think a lot of it is you have to understand your people and what you have available to you at the company and provide an opportunity for everyone to share their ideas and perspectives to that.
\n\nSo what I've seen work really well is one, when you start to understand there has to also be this communication and this accountability at the leadership level to say, "This is why we're focusing on this. This is why we think it's important. We want to hear from you." And something that I thought was really unique and helpful is if your company is small enough or even if it's big enough, a lot of companies what they'll do is they'll have the CEO, or they'll have managers host these kinds of forums where you can meet with them, and you can share.
\n\nYou can ask them a ton of questions. You can share your ideas. You can share what you hope to achieve from this and just starting to get perspectives first. And that may, over time, start to evolve into a council or people wanting to do an ERG. But really get as much as you can from people and then learn a lot from that as well.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. I asked that question, and then it turns out it was one of the ones that someone submitted in the chat from a thoughtbot person.
\n\nGERONDA: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: So I wanted to acknowledge that even though we overlapped the question, that question technically comes from Amy Wall, a developer at thoughtbot. Another question from Fernando is how can other employees support DEI people like you from a daily perspective?
\n\nGERONDA: Just take over my job. [laughter] No, I'm just kidding. So it's always helpful for me to have transparent conversations of where you are. If you want to help me, it's helpful to learn about your experience and come to me with things that you're seeing or ask me questions. Also, don't be afraid either to say, "I really don't know what this means or what this is. Can you help me?"
\n\nAnd it's also bringing learning as well because I'm not a developer, and I'm not a designer. [chuckles] I think that the work that our team does is fantastic. And they're super smart. And when I look at a lot of the things that are happening, like coding and conversations, although I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, it's really amazing to see. But from your perspective, there may be things that I am suggesting, like, oh, maybe we need to increase accessibility, and we do need to do these things. But be okay to challenge me and say, "I actually don't know that that's going to work well or not."
\n\nBut I think to support me in my role, the more that I know of the challenges, and the more that I know about you individually, and the more that you continue to bring these things up from a DEI perspective is super helpful. So what I've noticed and what I've really loved about working here is we have those opportunities to have those very open, transparent conversations. And we can post about issues, and we can post about things that we want to change in our handbook.
\n\nAnd sometimes people come to me with questions. And I love that people come to me and say, "This is what I want to work on more. Do you have any suggestions?" That really helps me in my role because as much as I would love to know everything that's happening with every single person, it can be challenging. So be honest with me and just share what's going on and be willing to learn and share resources with me too. Yes, I'm a DEI practitioner, but that doesn't mean I know everything. I know it's very surprising to a lot of people right now that I don't know everything.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nGERONDA: But share things you're reading. Share things that you've noticed. That helps me a ton. So that's how I say you can help me. And thank you for that question, Fernando. I appreciate that.
\n\nCHAD: A thing I would add is recognizing that there are, especially at thoughtbot, multiple levels of ways that you can support and contribute to our efforts. So we try to identify on the council okay, this is the thing we want to work on. The council isn't intended to do everything. But so what we'll often do is we'll say, okay, we're going to gather a group of people in a task force, and we're going to work on this. I think that's another level of contribution.
\n\nSo showing up for those participating in them when they arrive, and frankly, not signing on to too much because you spread yourself too thin and then can't do a good job doing everything that you want to do. So yeah, those are some tips that I would add. Geronda, thank you so much for joining me on the show. I really appreciate it.
\n\nGERONDA: Thank you for having me. I appreciate that.
\n\nCHAD: Happy Pride. [laughs]
\n\nGERONDA: Yes. Happy Pride. I'm so excited. I feel like I'm a little biased, but this is like my favorite month of the year. [laughter] Lots of fun celebrations. And of course, I recognize other holidays, and I think they are very important. But this one is generally very close to my heart. So thank you.
\n\nCHAD: Well, if folks want to follow along with you, get in touch with you, find out more, where are all the places that they can do that?
\n\nGERONDA: Yes. Follow me on LinkedIn, Geronda Wollack-Spiller. I'm on Twitter at @gerondaws. And I think those are the two best places to follow me. I'm most active on LinkedIn. And I usually respond there pretty heavily.
\n\nCHAD: We'll include those links in the show notes, which you can find attached to this episode. And you can subscribe to the show, find all those notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nThanks for listening. And thanks to all the thoughtbot people who were in the chat, and with the questions, and paid attention and listened to this episode. And see you next time.
\n\nGERONDA: Yes. [laughs]
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Special Guest: Geronda Wollack-Spiller.
Sponsored By:
Panos Siozos is Co-Founder and CEO of LearnWorlds, an online course platform for creating, selling, and promoting online courses.
\n\nChad talks with Panos about building e-learning platforms dating back to 1999, providing rich feature sets and catering to customers located in lots of different places, and deciding to stop bootstrapping and take investor money.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giants Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel and with me today is Panos Siozos, Co-Founder and CEO of LearnWorlds, an online course platform for creating, selling, and promoting online courses. Panos, thank you so much for joining me.
\n\nPANOS: Hi, Chad, and thanks for hosting me.
\n\nCHAD: You have been working on LearnWorlds for a while now. Where did the idea come from?
\n\nPANOS: I guess this has been brewing in our minds, mine and my co-founder's, for many years. We built our very first e-learning platform back in 1999, right after completing our studies in computer science. And we started postgraduate studies in educational technology. So in an academic setting, though, we had built many, many e-learning products, platforms, and authoring tools. And we were always exploring the state of the art.
\n\nAnd we always had it in the back of our minds the possibility and our obligation, I guess, to create a commercial product at some point and try to get the state of the art of e-learning that we were exploring in the academia and put it at the hands of actual trainers, and teachers, and give them the tools to create the best possible online courses that they could. That was always at the back of our minds.
\n\nAnd after completing our Ph.D. studies, after working in different jobs and different roles, we got back together at some point in 2012. And at that point, the conditions for e-learning were very, very mature. It was like bandwidth was in abundance. It was easy to create videos. It was easy to distribute videos. Cloud computing made it even easier to create software as a service platforms. And we understood that it was the perfect moment to come together, take our expertise, and try to put it in an amazing product that would be commercial and help all those people out there that wanted to create online courses.
\n\nCHAD: So I think you launched in 2014.
\n\nPANOS: Yes, we spent a couple of years. We started building the platform in 2012 in stealth mode. We were, I guess, traditional engineers. We had this build it, and they will come mentality.
\n\nCHAD: [chuckles]
\n\nPANOS: We had done almost like in the first year almost zero research on customer development and business development. We just had in mind to create the best possible platform that we could, and then obviously, people would just buy it because it's the best. Obviously, things don't always work that way. So we created the platform then we started talking with potential customers.
\n\nWe launched commercially in 2014. And this is when we had our very first customers, people who had the online courses. They had the online content. They had audiences, but they didn't have a platform. It seemed a huge burden and a huge task to create an actual platform to deliver and sell their courses. And this is where we came in and started providing our tool as a software as a service solution.
\n\nCHAD: So in 2014, I'm sure that there were other competing products on the market. Today, there are probably even more. What makes LearnWorlds different from all of those or better from those?
\n\nPANOS: In 2014, it was very early, I guess, in online courses. Most people were going to marketplaces like Udemy or Coursera. It was very difficult back then to create your own online school, to own the website. We had people who were either using traditional clunky Jurassic; I would say, learning management systems.
\n\nCHAD: [chuckles]
\n\nPANOS: And they were trying to adapt them for e-commerce and all the stuff, and it was always very difficult to do. Others were trying to duct tape together WordPress sites and plugins and custom codes. And that was something that wasn't scaling very gracefully. I would say after a couple of 100 users, it was almost impossible to maintain sites like that.
\n\nOthers were trying to create their own platforms, write code internally or hire a couple of developers. And then a few months or a couple of years and after having spent a couple hundred thousand dollars, they were realizing that this is very difficult to develop a tool like that unless you've done that in the past and you know what you're doing. So it was very timely to bring to the market a product like that.
\n\nWhat differentiated us from the others and what still differentiates us is that we have an obsessive focus on the learner experience. We're probably the only, I don't want to sound presumptuous, but we're probably the only course platform creators or, let's say, founders or co-founders of a course platform who have actually studied that. And we have PhDs in edtech. So we are bringing lots of our academic background into the platform. And we know that initially, this was even detrimental to growing the platform because, in some ways, the platform was even too complex for what people were expecting and could absorb back then in terms of features.
\n\nBut as the years passed by, we managed to find an excellent balance between how powerful the platform can be in terms of amazing design, offering great, interactive, engaging learning experiences, and also offering the ease of use and all the commercial features that users would expect. So we have a deep product with lots of offering affordances.
\n\nFor example, people can create amazing interactive videos very easily, just like editing a PowerPoint, I would say. You can just upload a normal video that you shot yourself, perhaps using a mobile phone, and you can convert it into an amazing interactive experience. And this is something very important for the students, the customers that will actually, at the end, consume the content.
\n\nSo to this day, the platform is very innovative. We're still participating in research projects, and we're seeing what is the state of the art of e-learning? And we're trying to implement that into the platform, obviously, now with amazing feedback from thousands of customers and millions of end-users. So it's an amazing opportunity to give to the people the things that they actually need and use to create the best possible online courses and sell as many of them as possible.
\n\nCHAD: One of the things, and it speaks right to the value proposition of the product that you use, is that there are so many features that you can have. And so, if you embark on the journey of creating your own platform, it's really easy to look at the surface level of what that looks like and say, "Oh, that's easy."
\n\nPANOS: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: But then, when it comes to other features, you have the ability to make mobile applications on LearnWorlds and those kinds of things. Like, that's a rich feature set that is really difficult to deliver on your own, right?
\n\nPANOS: It's very difficult to deliver on your own, and some things look deceptively simple. And when you actually see what is under the hood, it is very, very complicated to deliver a super user-friendly and easy tool or platform or authoring environment. So the platform is very powerful because people have all these different needs.
\n\nWe're talking here this is a platform that can support both the, I don't know, the nice, old lady that wants to sell some knitting courses, and she has a community of a couple of dozen people who follow her and consume her courses, all the way to online schools that run with more than 300,000 users. It's extremely difficult to be able to scale a school to a size like that.
\n\nAnd in many cases, people might start simple. They might even create a nice, simple user interface with a couple of videos. This is something that everybody believes that they can do. And they can do it initially, but once they have a couple of hundred users, or a couple of thousand users, their success becomes problematic. They cannot keep up with all the demands for something like that. And then they need more features. They need more features for doing their marketing. They need analytics. They need the scale and the reliability that a platform that serves a few thousand users requires. There are all sorts of things that people miss.
\n\nSo we believe that you don't necessarily have to reinvent the wheel, especially when there are amazing ready-made wheels out there, white-labeled wheels where you can just go to a platform like ours. And in a couple of days, you can have an amazing online school customized and optimized for your own case study, for your own audience, for your own language, for your own design. The settings that you need to power your own business model, whether it's selling courses on their own, selling memberships, selling subscriptions, bundles of courses, all those different things that look simple on the outside but they require lots of precision to work great and delivering in scale.
\n\nCHAD: So, given the rich feature set, I'm sure that you have a lot of customers located in lots of different places. I'm sure they have different needs, too, different profiles. How do you as a company go about deciding what to work on? And how does the workflow through your organization?
\n\nPANOS: This is always a very interesting task, something that we are doing almost every month. We update our roadmap on a quarterly basis. But every month, we go out and check again the feature requests, and the trends in the market and the industry, and all the things that are happening. We receive hundreds of feature requests from our existing customers every week, and these are being organized and prioritized. And we always try, obviously, to help our own existing customer base. But we work with many partners and other platforms as well to create integrations and to deliver features, and uncover needs that people have today.
\n\nAnd in the past couple of years, as you can imagine, with COVID, we had to adapt many changes to the new business models and the new ways that people started creating, delivering, and consuming online courses. For example, when COVID started, almost overnight, there was a huge demand for creating and delivering live courses with no pre-recorded videos. That's something that used to be quite frequent feature requests, let's say. Before COVID, we had it in our roadmap. Once we understood what COVID would mean for the industry, almost overnight, we stopped other things that we were doing and started working hard on delivering, let's say, our Zoom integration.
\n\nSo in just a matter of a few short weeks, it was super easy for anybody who wanted to teach. You imagine how the situation was amidst the lockdowns. People their businesses were shutting down. They couldn't reach their audiences, their customers. Their revenue streams had ran out. So we brought to the market this integration, and it was super easy for a photography teacher, a yoga teacher, a coach from anywhere to just create an online course, plug in their Zoom account, and be able to deliver courses, either one-on-one, to a small group or even to hundreds of students.
\n\nSo we had to adapt as the market was adapting, and the same comes when it comes about business models, ways of getting paid, different payment methods. For example, some European countries...as a European company, we're also very attuned to what our European customers need. In several European countries, credit cards, traditional credit cards like Visa and MasterCard are not the most frequently used methods of digital payments. So we have to work with local payment gateways to provide these kinds of solutions. Also, for taxes, taxes in Europe are way more when you're selling from one country to the other. They’re much more difficult and complex than in the U.S., So we have to adapt to the demands from customers and offer solutions like that.
\n\nSo it's always anticipating, seeing what the actual users need but also keeping a large chunk, I would say, space for innovating, bringing to the product things that people don't actually ask for because they don't even know that they could exist and that they could be helpful. And this is where our expertise, I would say, comes into play. Our team is constantly researching trends and other platforms and how people interact with platforms and other tools. And we try to stay ahead of the curve, not just follow what others are doing but be the leaders in this kind of chase.
\n\nAnd rightly, you mentioned there are dozens of platforms out there. It's great to see so much innovation in so many different platforms. Especially after COVID, I can say that it seems like there is a viral spread of new platforms. We almost see one new platform every week. And it's nice because it seems that the industry is very hot. And there is lots of demand for these kinds of solutions. We do have a head start, and we will continue to improve the product and bring an amazing solution to people who want to use something like that.
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\n\nCHAD: One of the features that you have is localization, being able to have your content in lots of different languages. How early on did you add that feature?
\n\nPANOS: This is something that we had to do very early on. The first iteration of the platform, before even founding the company when we were just a side project, was built for the Greek market and the Greek language. So that was in a very difficult situation back in 2013, 2014. There was a huge financial crisis in Greece back then.
\n\nSo once we had the product ready, we realized that nobody wanted to invest in e-learning. It was a very tough situation to be in. So that's probably one of the best things that happened to us. Because almost overnight, like in day two, we had to go to an existing mature market, which was the U.S. market, where people were willing to test a new platform. They really liked what the platform could do. They were ready to risk a product, a new product that was brought into market by a small ragtag team from the other side of the world. And so we had to adapt to a new language.
\n\nSo that was something that came in very early on and was very helpful in dealing with different markets and different localizations, working with different payment gateways, and becoming an international product from very early on. So right now, we have customers in more than 110 countries; even though U.S. is by far our biggest market, almost half of our market is based in the U.S. But we are very willing and able to work with new markets and help them and help people bring their own localizations and their own translations into the platform.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that jumped out at me because I've seen other products that don't have that feature. And I think it's in part because a new company started in the United States knows that they have a fairly big addressable market just within the U.S., and they don't necessarily need to support multiple languages. And I thought that, and that's what I heard, was that the fact that you were not in the U.S. compelled you to have localization really early on. You've also mentioned a few other ways in which that has influenced you. How do you think being in Greece and being a European startup has influenced you as a company overall?
\n\nPANOS: This is the DNA and the blueprint of how the company eventually grew. For example, we started in Greece amidst a dire financial crisis. We were, from day one, a remote company because of the conditions of the co-founders. So we happened to be in three different cities, two different countries. And we just wanted to work together. We didn't have any long-term plans of how a company would evolve. So from day one, we became a remote company. So as you can imagine, in the next few years, that gave us...and even when COVID came, that gave us an immense advantage because that's the way we had been working. We knew that full remote was an option from day one.
\n\nThe second thing that really also influenced us is that because we were growing in a situation...amidst this financial crisis, we were a bootstrapped company. We didn't have access to any external funding, which obviously made things much more difficult at the beginning. We couldn't get access to funds and invest in marketing very early on and push the platform heavily.
\n\nOn the other end, as a bootstrapped company, we developed a mentality of being very resource-efficient, cash-efficient, paying great attention to all of our KPIs and our unit economics, doing lots of unscalable things, as Paul Graham would say, you know, wearing lots of hats, investing a lot in people who didn't have the credentials, let's say, or the experience that one would expect from to hire in a U.S-founded startup.
\n\nSo we had to invest in the local people, in the local skills, amazing youth. We're talking here back in 2013, 2014. Youth unemployment in Greece was about 70%. So it was a terrible situation. It's like this meme where people were asked to have experience, but nobody was giving them a chance to develop this work experience. So we invested in people like that. And that's the best thing we did.
\n\nSo we're talking about a remote bootstrapped startup with a can-do mentality with access to amazing people, not specialized or skilled, let's say, or experienced in this particular software as a service role but very smart and willing to work and excel and do better for themselves and for the company. So I think that was the recipe that helped the business grow.
\n\nAnd also, coming from a small market, we had to adapt to a fragmented European market. Europe is a huge market of about 500 million people, a few less now, a few million less now, barring UK. But this is a fragmented market. You don't have a unified market of one language. One currency may be, yes, in most countries, but we're talking different languages, and different tax regimes, and all the staff and different mentality even. So we had to adapt. This is difficult. But also, it gives you the resilience and the flexibility to adapt to all these different cases.
\n\nAnd then going international was very natural to us. It's not that we started in a small market, and then we're trying to create a foothold in a second market or the third market. From day one, we had to look outward to find the people who would use and dare to use a platform like ours and try to be our best selves and try to give them an amazing product.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's great. You mentioned that you initially bootstrapped. Have you taken investment since then?
\n\nPANOS: Yes, we have. We did a small seed round of about $1.1 million in 2019 with a small local VC. And then last year, about a year ago, we closed a Series A funding round of $32 million with Insight Partners.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. Congratulations. What caused you to make the decision to stop bootstrapping and take an investment in that seed round?
\n\nPANOS: That was the point when we realized that we needed the extra fuel in order to push the pedal. We were seeing that we already had a great product. We were on to something. It would have been too slow to continue working in a bootstrapped mode with a few resources that we had. We wanted to accelerate. We wanted to accelerate hiring, product development, and all this stuff. So we didn't actually need the money back then for the viability of the company, which is actually, I guess, the best reason to raise money and the best time when we don't actually need it.
\n\nSo that's how we started. That gave us the extra confidence. It allowed us to bring in a few extra people. We started investing more in hiring professionals that had already done that, who had already experience in SaaS businesses and international businesses. And that gave us a lot more certainty and trust in ourselves to keep growing the product and going further.
\n\nAnd this last round with Insight Partners...Insight Partners is one of the top VCs in the private equity funds. They also bring in an amazing team of operators who can always jump in and help in case we need something. So it helps us expand our horizons, be more aggressive in our hiring, much more confident about what we can do. And that also has given a great boost to the business and the team.
\n\nCHAD: This idea of acceleration and going faster is an interesting one. I've seen it in our clients as well where, especially if you're in a competitive market, you could have a good growing reasonable business, but if everyone else around you is raising money, raising capital, and accelerating, that can put you back especially if you don't realize it. Do you feel like that was part of what was causing you to want to accelerate?
\n\nPANOS: Yes, yes, definitely. So e-learning is a complex industry, let's say. What we're doing is very competitive because the market is always changing. People demand more. New business models require new features, and everybody wants an all-in-one platform that will keep doing more and more. So you cannot just stand still. It's not like a micro SaaS where you can have a feature the same working for five years, and you can still have people signing up and using that. You have to be ahead. You have to adapt. This is a very fast pacing industry.
\n\nAnd now there are so many different players from all different industries who look at online courses and content delivery in general in new ways and start approaching from different angles, whether they are marketing tools, or video hosting providers, or email marketing providers, or traditional learning management systems. So there are many people around this online course industry. So you need to have a war chest. You need to bring in experts.
\n\nYou need to keep investing in R&D and improving the product and also customer success, making sure that your amazing customers can perform even better, and they can take advantage of all the features in the platform. So you cannot just stand still; that's not an option. You can perhaps get away with it for two to three years. But eventually, the product will fizzle out. We will not be able to compete with what is happening.
\n\nYou mentioned all these different platforms coming into the market. You have to stay ahead. And luckily, now, with the recent funding and obviously with the help of our customers, we have all the resources that we needed to implement the vision that we have for the product. All the things that we couldn't do in the past because we were constrained in terms of resources, and time and money, now we are able to innovate much faster, bring many more new features to the platform and to the market, and help people create the best possible online courses.
\n\nCHAD: You mentioned that when you raised that initial seed round, you did it with a local investment company. Was that intentional? I took a peek; the company is Marathon Venture Capital. And they specifically say on their website that they day one partner to Greek tech founders, so they're very focused. [laughs]
\n\nPANOS: Yes, they're very focused. There is a huge network obviously of Greek founders almost everywhere in the world. So they have a deep pool of people to reach out to and a huge network. It was definitely; also there was a parameter of convenience, you know, them being close, being able to communicate easily, having the same kind of mentality and the same kind of experiences. This obviously makes things much more easier. I guess at that point; it would be much more difficult to go from a bootstrapped remote ragtag team to a fully funded company with a traditional, let's say, Silicon Valley-based VC.
\n\nEven explaining back then in 2019 that you are a remote company wasn't easy. It's something that made some people wonder about how serious you are about that. What are your plans going forward? How are you going to hire? How are you going to compete? How are you going to hire people if you don't have these amazing startup offices with the pool tables and all the stuff? But we were saying that it's feasible. You can do it. I mean, you can find the people who want this kind of lifestyle who appreciate this flexibility, who want to be close to their families and work from their small cities somewhere in Greece or in other countries and be close, let's say, online with another team.
\n\nWe weren't crazy back then. So it was much easier to make these kinds of propositions to a local team. I guess it was convenient, and we had a good match. But already, this investment prepared us a lot in terms of organizing the business, due diligence, taking care of our finance and reporting, and all the stuff, and legal and made us ready to go for a bigger investment later when we needed it and when the time was right.
\n\nCHAD: So from three co-founders in 2014, how large is your team now?
\n\nPANOS: I think with the recent hires, we're about 120 people right now. We are still fully remote. In fact, in the next few weeks, we will just open a small co-working space in Athens where about half of our staff resides. But this is going to be more of a co-working space kind of experience. I think right now; we have people in our team from 16 different nationalities in 11 different countries.
\n\nBut still, the majority of the people are based in Greece, so here are the roots of the company. But we are internationalizing fast, getting people everywhere we can find them. People that fit the business, we're happy to bring them on board, and these kinds of remote-first flexible environment that we have is very fitting for some amazing people from all over the world. And they prefer that actually than returning back to an office.
\n\nCHAD: For yourself as a leader, how have you needed to grow or change as your team has scaled so much?
\n\nPANOS: We're still doing that.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nPANOS: It's not just me. It's my co-founders as well, my two co-founders, Fanis and Giorgos. I wouldn't have been able, obviously, to do anything alone, neither any one of us, without having the others. Still to this day, we're very hands-on. We're involved in all the projects. In some cases, we were a bit more reluctant to delegate. But still, the team really appreciates that we're still in the trenches with them, learning, solving problems every day, trying to not give solutions from both ad hoc but be with them, solve problems with them. That's something that they appreciate a lot.
\n\nAnd obviously, we are still...every day we are transitioning. We started as a team of three people on a side project that was just taking a few hours of our time per week. And this business came to be the biggest part of our lives, spending 12-plus hours every day and more, and weekends, and everything else with a growing team amidst some very difficult conditions like COVID where things were, you know, in our families and our cities, things were blowing up.
\n\nAnd we had to stay close to our teams and keep delivering a product that was skyrocketing in terms of demand. So we are still learning; that's our motto here in LearnWorlds, getting better every single day, trying to enable our team be more enablers now and better project managers, inspire people in order to help them deliver the best that they can.
\n\nWe are lucky to be in a great industry with amazing customers, all of them creative people who create great content. They love their products. They love their own customers. So this is something that helps us have a great mission that our employees also share. So they see that it's not just about the numbers or about getting the MRR or getting the sale or whatever. But they really enjoy helping our customers and helping them create amazing little, online businesses and get their products online.
\n\nEvery day we get amazing feedback from our customers, and that really makes people around here very happy. At the end of the day, they go home, and they know that they helped launch another business or two and help people, in some cases, realize their dream of becoming independent, you know, escaping nine-to-five, or helping a coach or a trainer get some amazing reward for the fruit of their labor and the content that they have created with so much work. So this is a great thing to watch. And it's great being around people who enjoy this kind of business and this kind of environment.
\n\nCHAD: Is there anything that when you were starting the company based on your prior experiences, both good or bad, at the other companies that you had worked at along the way in your career or your co-founders’ careers when you said okay, we're starting LearnWorlds. We're starting our own company. We specifically want to not make this mistake or instill this value in our culture that you were very intentional about?
\n\nPANOS: There are probably a lot of things. I'm not sure if I can name one in particular, but we always wanted to create a business that we would love being employees of. So we wanted to be in an environment that we would enjoy being ourselves. That's probably kind of egocentric, like, it was about us. But I think there were some unspoken values in some cases or cases where we would see that no, this is bad; we shouldn't go down that path.
\n\nWe didn't want to replicate ourselves and create a company of people who'd look like us and react to the same things that we would. But we always wanted to have an environment that we would feel happy, and we would love to be part of. So far, at that scale of 120, we have managed, I guess, to do that. In many cases, this is also our number one priority.
\n\nFeatures come and go. People come and go. Customers come and go. But we know that the biggest strength of this company is the minds of the people who work for us. We want them to be happy. We want them to come to work happy every day and bring their best. That is our major priority. And especially in times like that, their mental and physical well-being as well it's a major priority for us.
\n\nAnd we believe that if we create these conditions of safety and trust, the empowerment and learning as well of constant improvement, we will achieve our goal, and we will have a team that will be working for a product that is going to be better every day and every week.
\n\nAnd this shows, at the end of the day, this is something that customers can appreciate, either by seeing a new feature in the platform that they love or by receiving some amazing help from one of our customer support reps or an amazing demo from one of our salespeople. This is something that we are lucky still to show everywhere in the company. This is the mentality of the entire company. Hopefully, we'll be able to preserve these kinds of values and attitude as we scale.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. I really wish that for you. Good luck and congratulations on all the success. Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your story and your wisdom about scaling the company. If folks want to learn more about LearnWorlds or get in touch with you or follow along, where are all the places that they can do that?
\n\nPANOS: You can always come to our website www.learnworlds.com. Our platform offers a 30-day free trial, no credit cards, no strings attached. If you have any questions around online courses or any ideas about what you could build yourself for your business, come to our website. Join us, and we will be happy to help you out and show you what is possible today.
\n\nCHAD: Great. And you can subscribe to the show and find notes and a full transcript of this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
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Tarush Aggarwal is the Founder and CEO of 5X, the modern data stack as a managed service that enables companies to answer business questions without having to worry about building data infrastructure or bringing in the right data engineering team.
\n\nChad talks with Tarush about the modern data stack movement, choosing things that make sense on behalf of their customers, and building a team culture at a company with a fairly large time zone distribution.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Tarush Aggarwal, the Founder and CEO of 5X, the modern data stack as a managed service that enables companies to answer business questions without having to worry about building data infrastructure or bringing in the right data engineering team. Tarush, thank you for joining me.
\n\nTARUSH: Chad, thank you so much for having me on the show. Really looking forward to being here and hopefully adding some value for your listeners.
\n\nCHAD: Yes, I'm sure that they will. I think many companies are either thinking about how they build their data infrastructure or thinking about how they leverage data for their business now. So 5X provides a path for them to do that, and I'd love to dive in. How does 5X, like I said in the intro, enable companies to get started without having to worry about building this infrastructure themselves or this team themselves?
\n\nTARUSH: Yeah, totally. It's a great question. Just to kind of zoom out for a quick second, the data space has been really hot for a few years now, and there's this area often called the modern data stack, which is really led by a few vendors mainly around this concept of the data warehouse, reporting tools, and modeling, and ingestion. And this is really a new area for the data space, which has really become popular. So you also have, you know, ten years ago, you had Hadoop and Spark, and all of these different data tools, which in general have become less popular, and the modern data stack movement is one of the big movements happening.
\n\nSo at a macro level, we have this new movement. If you zoom in, this movement happens to be one of the most fragmented movements. So what that means is for each different layer, you have different vendors. And so, even if you want to do something today as simple as building dashboards, you have to first ingest this data. In your average company, you've got [inaudible] at different sources. You need to put it in. You need to then store it, you need to model it, and then you can build a dashboard.
\n\nCHAD: You also need to make all the different choices about which ones you're going to choose at every level.
\n\nTARUSH: Exactly. At each of these levels, you have multiple billion-dollar companies today competing. So the thing about fragmentation of the space and, you know, I think data along with maybe DevOps and security are probably the most fragmented spaces. The thing about fragmented spaces is that they are great for extremely savvy customers; think of large tech companies who have 100% data teams. But for 90% of businesses, if you want to get value from data, it makes it much harder because you have to sign multiple contracts with these vendors, architecture, set up security.
\n\nSo what 5X very, very fundamentally is doing is we're business-focused. We allow you, you know, in a month or two, you better go to 5x.co and add your credit card, and you will have business analytics out of the box. And we can help you make some of these decisions as to what are the best vendors for your price points, for your use cases and give you an end-to-end platform so that you aren't worrying about signing these bills and sort of setting it up. You're focused on your business outcome and your business use cases.
\n\nCHAD: Where did...I happen to know, but because I did my research for the episode. [laughs] But you were at WeWork leading data at WeWork, right?
\n\nTARUSH: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: So I imagine you faced this problem and saw this problem firsthand, right?
\n\nTARUSH: You know, I've been fortunate that I've spent my career in the data space. So back in the day at Salesforce and now and most recently at WeWork. And companies like this, in general, are aggressively hiring and aggressively growing these teams. So at WeWork, we had 50 people working on stitching together the platform and finding the best vendors, and being involved in that. So at WeWork, we were really focused on building our own version of the platform.
\n\nI think what's interesting is ever since I left and especially over the last 24 months, where the sort of startup space has become so active, I'm still getting pinged on LinkedIn like every day or two with companies looking to get started. And over a period of time, you see the trends that everyone is reinventing the wheel. What do I do first? What's the first use case? What infrastructure do I need? How do I set this up? So the idea of this really came less from WeWork, where we had the team and the expertise. It came more from the other 90% of the companies that don't have the resources that WeWork had, at least at that time.
\n\nCHAD: So what do your customers of 5X typically look like then? Are there particular industries or data needs? Or on the tech side, on the development side, what do their development teams look like interacting with 5X?
\n\nTARUSH: That's a great question. And again, at a macro level, data is a global phenomenon. It's not industry-specific. Now, different industries have different requirements. So obviously, as a consumer, what you need to collect, the tools and infrastructure you need are quite different from a B2B business. So there is this concept that for each vertical, what stack makes sense, and that's, again, something which we can do. Typically, our customers have found some sort of a product-market fit. They have a business, and now they're looking to go scale the business to get to either entering growth phase, or an optimization phase, or a profitability phase. And in each of these phases, data plays a vital role.
\n\nSo they are at this point where they know that they want to get value from it. They might even have a data team with 4,5,10 people. And they really might have figured out their first use cases and had the basic dashboards. And, inevitably, they come to this question of what now? What do we do now? So that's one large sort of vertical. And then the other one is they want to go do it. They want to go invest in data, but they have no idea how to do it. And in that case, they're looking at us not just the platform, but we also have this concept of on-demand talent.
\n\nToday, we're interviewing thousands of data engineers a week. We get to hire the top 1%, and we pre-train them on different stacks. And then, companies can integrate these lead engineers at a weekly level or completely on-demand and use that to go build out the dashboards. We have never thought of replacing data teams for companies. But it's really interesting to see that some of the early-stage companies are using our platform and our on-demand talent to literally do end-to-end data as a service.
\n\nCHAD: So at 5X, you're actually providing those team members, those consulting services?
\n\nTARUSH: Yeah, so we look at it less from the consultant point of view, you know, a consultant typically you would go, and you have your statement of work, and that's going to be a three-month project, and it might be a fixed price. And sort of inevitably, they're looking to...they don't work with hundreds of thousands of companies, a few of them might, but in general, we work a little bit differently.
\n\nSo we have this concept of on-demand talent. So we have these engineers who we hire, and we pre-train them and essentially build software to basically allow people to add these engineers on top of the platform and sort of use them. So they work in one-week sprint cycles. It's fully on-demand. So you can have a group of engineers for one week and the next week not have that. And typically, consultants don't work in that way. And we don't really do the statements of work, and here's what's going to happen.
\n\nThese engineers are sort of put into these things what we call pods, and pods are three engineers and a product manager. And they operate on these one-week sprints. You can use this end-to-end team or these engineering pods to go build out your use cases, which is similar to what a consultant on the services model does, but we do it in more of a platform-first approach.
\n\nCHAD: That's really interesting. I've had some guests on before where they talk about doing consulting or doing services on top of the recurring revenue platform that they've built or not doing it because it's not interesting to them or that their investors say like, "Don't get into that TNM business time and materials business. You want to focus on recurring revenue." How have you balanced that in your business?
\n\nTARUSH: The reality is that it doesn't matter which vendor you are in the modern data stack space. You might be Snowflake, or you might be Tableau, or you might be Fivetran or DBT. These are just some of the popular ones. Each of these vendors is just one small part of the stack. And what that means is that they don't have a services model and [inaudible] investors happy.
\n\nBut in reality, it's because they don't have end-to-end stack exposure; you know, there's no company today which knows what their stack looks like. Snowflake doesn't know what their entire stack looks like. I mean, Snowflake [inaudible] its success in engagement because they just want [inaudible] And what 5X is is, you know, we've had to spin these stacks up from scratch for mid-market companies. You'll be able to map your stack. So you might have a few pieces. We can help you see what's missing.
\n\nBut again, because we have visibility end-to-end, having that services model, if you want to call it, makes a lot of sense because, ultimately, we're focused on adding business value. And no one's doing data for the sake of doing data. And no one is doing it to build a 50-person data team. They're doing it ultimately to enable the business. So given that we have this end-to-end scope, we look at our on-demand talent as a massive value-add of using the 5X platform is that you have this ability to get engineers end-to-end that are pre-trained on the platform. So we like it a lot. And we think it's a competitive advantage for us.
\n\nCHAD: How opinionated is the 5X stack, the default stack? Can you make a lot of choices within it? Are you using lots of different things? You already mentioned Snowflake, Tableau. So it sounds like you're choosing the things that make sense on behalf of your customers.
\n\nTARUSH: Yeah, so for launch, we're focused on the core BI stack, which is ingestion, storage, monitoring, reporting, and in this stack, also we have picked the best-in-class vendors so Fivetran, Snowflake, DBT, Preset. In some ways, the usual suspects which you think of as you're looking at the stack. Now our goal and really what we're building is this program called the Certified 5X Program, and that's for vendors. And that program allows us to integrate with different partners and do things like account provisioning, configuration, user management, our billing agreement, workflow setup.
\n\nAnd as we integrate with more and more vendors, the idea is to really have a single form for the modern data stack. So, in ingestion, for now, we might be using Fivetran since they're the [inaudible], but the idea is we're also talking to Plausible, and Airbyte, and Stitch, and all of the other vendors. So at some point, we really kind of pick and choose between any of them. So the idea is, again, there could be a set of different stuff for a company, which is extremely budget-conscious, and if you're looking more for enterprise capability to use a different vendor in that same category.
\n\nSo ultimately, we're enabling customer freedom in the next few months. At launch, we'll have a smaller selection. But as we get into Q4 and as we get into the next year, we have the next 10-15 vendors lined up who are going to be part of the certified 5X program, and that allows us to add more and more optionality in terms of existing categories. And then, we also will focus on adding new categories like reverse ETL, or data lineage, or augmented analytics.
\n\nCHAD: I love the idea of being focused for launch, saying these are the biggest things that we need to hit. How long did it take you to get to launch? When did you start working in earnest on 5X and get to a public launch?
\n\nTARUSH: We've been working on this since last June. So we're 11 months old now. What we really did initially is go build relationships with these vendors. And the first thing we did is we started off more as a services business where we sort of built this automatic interview process where we were interviewing hundreds of engineers a week and adding these engineers and training them on the platform.
\n\nWe would go set up the platform for the customer in a semi-automatic manner. So we have been operational. We're probably working with 15-20 customers at this point, but we did it in a sort of semi-automated way. And over the last few months, as we understood more and more what their needs are, we are transitioning to a platform-first company instead of a services-first company.
\n\nCHAD: So that means that you were able to be public and start getting customers fairly early on in your journey. It's only been 11 months since you started. And when did you get your first customer?
\n\nTARUSH: 11 months ago.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] So at what point did you find investors and raise money and start to build a team?
\n\nTARUSH: We've been fortunate enough that we were producing revenue on day one just looking at the services aspect of the business. So we needed a very tiny fundraise back in October, a very small amount. And now that we're getting closer to the platform launch, we might be announcing something soon.
\n\nCHAD: What did you take money for if you were revenue-generating? Was there something specific that caused you to take it and that it was for?
\n\nTARUSH: So if you kind of zoom out again and look at this whole concept of building out, you know, I think if we focused on services and focused on growing that part of the business organically, there's no real need for that. But the idea now is we're having a 20-person platform team, building out these integrations, building up software for even things like board management, hiring. The main task today is sort of engineering. So we raised capital to double down on the platform vision and become a platform first.
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\n\nCHAD: So, when it comes to building a team, we're talking today, and you're in Bali. Is that where you spend most of your time now?
\n\nTARUSH: I wish I could spend more time here.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nTARUSH: I'm pretty nomadic, which I really like. And I think we were born in COVID...a fun story; I got stuck in Bali for two years. I came here for vacation, and we were locked up. And it's not the worst place in the world to be stuck, and I felt very lucky that it was not somewhere else. So, in general, we started building the pilot while we were still remote. We have folks in 11 countries now. I spent six months of the year around America. That's where our clients are.
\n\nAbout 80% of our business is from American companies today, and then I spend some time in India, where our engineering teams are aggressively growing in the Southeast Asian market. And 5X is a Singapore company. So we spend time in Singapore, and if I have some time, I come back to Bali. But in general, we are pretty nomadic. And I think as part of our culture, and how we attract people, one of our core values is what we call the hammock value where if I can build it or if you can build it while lying on a hammock in some part of the world, we're not interested in going back to an office.
\n\nCHAD: With a fairly large time zone distribution of the team, how do you build a culture? How do people work together? Are people shifting their hours? Or do you build a culture of working asynchronously?
\n\nTARUSH: We mostly work asynchronously. In general, the engineering teams are based out of India. So engineers who are working on the platform are in the same time zone. In terms of our pods, what's really cool is today, we hire in South America, we hire in Africa, we hire in Southeast Asia, so three distinct time zones. So you have Europe, you have the Americas, and you have the Asian time zone.
\n\nAnd when we assemble these pods, and a pod has got three engineers and a technical project manager, we try and have at least two different time zones in a pod. So at least two of the engineers are in separate time zones, which means that for our customers, they have more around-the-clock support. They have more hours where they can get work done, which is great for productivity.
\n\nSo, what that means on our side is that we're really good at being able to communicate asynchronously. We have all this flexibility, and with that, in terms of accountability, the way we do it is we have daily updates. Again, it's asynchronous, so you can send that here's what you did, you know, [inaudible] by. At the end of the week, we do Loom videos really sharing what you've done. We sort focus a lot on like agenda --
\n\nCHAD: And Loom is an asynchronous video sharing. People can record videos and share it with everybody. Is that what Loom is?
\n\nTARUSH: Yeah, sorry, I should mention. Loom is a great video platform that allows you to screen share, and it's just a really cool screen-sharing tool that we record these asynchronous videos and really ingraining it inside our culture. Everyone at 5X knows the importance of sending these updates and agenda before a call and summaries in a Zoom video. So that's how we are able to do it.
\n\nCHAD: One of the things that we've not struggled with but dealt with at thoughtbot is we've started hiring all throughout the Americas, all throughout Europe, Middle East, and Africa. And we've got team members all over the place. And we want to treat people as employees and give them full benefits. And a lot of people want to work for a local entity and have employment laws and everything. But it's a challenge to do that. We don't necessarily want to set up entities in every country. So one strategy is contracting, another is to work with an international PEO or employer of record. How have you managed that?
\n\nTARUSH: We use an international agency which allows us to hire in any country. I'm not sure the name of the platform we're using. Karan, our CFO, would know that.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nTARUSH: But it allows us on a macro level to be able to hire in all these countries as employees, you know, ask if you have the stock program. And it's also allowing us to give healthcare benefits and things like that, which we really want to have for everyone. And when it comes to the engineers on our network, at the moment, we're hiring them full-time as contractors, but again, we want to extend benefits to them and really, in some ways, give them that flexibility.
\n\nDo you want to be inside a local jurisdiction where you can have more healthcare benefits and integrations with local governments, you know, employee programs and things like that? Or do you want to take advantage of our culture and be more nomadic? And these are exciting things which we're sort of figuring out now as we [inaudible] some economies of scale around, you know, having this [inaudible]
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's great. And for what it's worth, that's the route that we've taken as well is to work with an international employer of record who actually employs people locally. And many people don't realize, like, you highlighted health benefits. A lot of countries have national health care. But it's really common, especially in white-collar or tech industry employment there, to augment that with supplemental insurance, which is not very expensive, but it is expected and oftentimes necessary to get the kind of coverage that you want to have.
\n\nTARUSH: I think the world is changing. We're becoming remote-first as well. And the two areas which I believe it's going to affect the most is number one, employment and number two, education. It's just a no-brainer that more and more companies are going to emerge in this space, making it easier to hire remotely and provide benefits and, in some ways, build that operating system for remote entrepreneurs. So I'm not sure if the tools today are great. I think they solve the problem for now. But I expect there to be a lot of innovation in this space over the next few years.
\n\nCHAD: Well, and I think that the pandemic has pushed that, accelerated that. There are companies now that existed before, but the scale at which they're able to operate now because so many companies have started to go remote and want to employ people everywhere; it's really driving that growth and investment in that area too. And as a result of that, there's going to be a lot of data [laughs] that these companies generate and need to get a handle on. So maybe they'll become customers of 5X, or maybe they already are.
\n\nTARUSH: Yeah. If you look in the last ten years, I think the last ten years were all about digital marketing with social and sort of advertising, making it very obvious that if you don't have a web presence, if you don't care about your customers think, and if you don't find ways to attract customers, you're not going to exist. So ten years later and all those companies which didn't set up websites and they didn't figure out customer acquisition online probably don't exist anymore. In the next five years or in the next ten years, a lot of these will get a lot more sophisticated. And certainly, data comes in as a competitive advantage.
\n\nSo if you're not focusing on how a customer is using your product and how you personalize and being able to compare the way of spending money in terms of your lead acquisition and really, really optimize at it, what you'll face is that it will become difficult to compete because your competition is getting more and more sophisticated. So a lot of the investment in this is really predicated on becoming more efficient at these core groups of things like go-to-market strategy, engagement, optimizing internal operations as a way to find efficiencies which is typically what technology has enabled.
\n\nCHAD: Especially small businesses or businesses that are just getting started, if you don't have experience with that, it can feel really overwhelming. And we talked about how 5X by coming to the table with a stack, with a team that can help do that, that's great. And it helps solve that problem. Say that I'm a founder or a CEO, maybe non-technical, and I really am just getting started, but I have a big need; how do I engage with 5X? What's the best way to think about that? And are there things that I might do as a founder that you would recommend, hey, I recognize you can't do everything, but do this, and you'll avoid some pain later on.
\n\nTARUSH: We have some customers today who use us pre-product. They don't have a product. They don't have any customers. They have no data. But they use us because when they launch, they want to have the right tracking and visibility and reports and metrics. So I would have never thought someone that [inaudible] 5X. But it kind of makes sense that you want to have the right [inaudible] knowledge.
\n\nYou have pros and cons. I think the pros of it is instilling the data culture from day one. Data acts as a bridge between engineering and the business, Chad. It just connects the products from like the business goals. So there is an upside in bringing this on earlier on and building that and instilling that into your culture. I think the flip side of it is that if you don't have product-market fit, if you're shooting darts and seeing what works.
\n\nAnd in general, companies at that point are running more on intuition and trying different things to see what sticks. And having systems in place at that scale, very frankly, could also be unnecessary. And at that point, if you're spending $100, you probably want to spend 80-90 of them on bringing out your product and the design that you've got. And I think they'll want to sign to be able to acquire customers, and that sort of shifts then you see the data spending increase.
\n\nSo again, we're obviously happy to help, and our technical product managers have a lot of experience. They're the ones who have been data leaders that are growing companies and businesses like Uber, WeWork, Alibaba, top tech companies. They've already been data team members, so they've always been part of that growth. So they're good people, the on-demand talent. You have expertise over there from someone who's seen this before. And a few of our early-stage companies leverage these people more and more, but the flipside of it is focusing on actually building a product first.
\n\nCHAD: I love that. I think that that's great advice. And so I assume that there are people who come and to your team or you start talking with them, and you say, "You're not ready for us yet."
\n\nTARUSH: Yeah, we sort of have done that. We have told folks, you know, Google this, this, and this, and once you have this in place and you're about to go to market, that's the right time to come engage. But at this point, honestly, it might not be the best time for you to start thinking about [inaudible]
\n\nCHAD: Focus on improving your user experience, getting new users, making the best product you can. That's really great advice.
\n\nTARUSH: On the flip side of that, I think the problem, not the problem, I don't know if it's the word. I think the mistake a lot of companies make is that they actually get into it too late. The typical fallacy is that the founders are sitting in this gold mine of data. We're just going to have a data scientist come, and he or she is going to start generating all these insights, and we're going to be a data-driven company. And the reality of everything in life is that things take time. You can have the stack from day one, and you can have amazing engineers. But it takes time for you to really understand what's happening in your business.
\n\nAnd initially, your data model that's sort of changing because the understanding of the business is changing. Visibility in your data leads to asking better questions. And with asking better questions, you start changing the mental models of what's happening. It takes three iterations before your data model starts to stabilize. And what that means very, very often is that the founder is expecting in three months that the data is going to have a positive ROI and the output the business is getting from the data team is going to be positive. And that's not really how it works. It takes six to nine months.
\n\nYou'd have reporting in the first month and the first two months. But as you move from reporting to visibility and to actually optimization and using that data as an insight, we think of that as a three-quarter project. So number one, I think companies don't know that, and they expect that it happens much sooner. And number two is also the mindset around I'm looking at data to provide positive ROI within a small duration, which is also, in reality, not how it is.
\n\nCHAD: Tarush, that's really great advice, and I hope people take it to heart. If folks want to get in touch with you or follow along with you or learn more about 5X, where are all the places that they can do that?
\n\nTARUSH: So our website is 5x.co. Again, that's 5x.co. You can reach out to me at tarush@5x.co. We're also doing a lot of stuff on YouTube. We're doing a lot of podcasts to educate on the data space. We make weekly videos on different topics on our YouTube channel. I'm sure you can just search for 5X. That's another great way to engage with us.
\n\nCHAD: Wonderful. You can subscribe to this show and find notes for this episode along with a complete transcript at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks so much for listening and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Tarush Aggarwal.
Sponsored By:
Deborah Levine is the Director of LGBT YouthLink at CenterLink, which supports, strengthens, and connects LGBT centers.
\n\nChad talks with Deborah about working on something new called imi: a free digital research-backed mental health tool intended to support and help LGBTQ+ teens explore and affirm their identity and learn practical ways to cope with their sexual and gender minority stress, founding Q Chat Space, a digital LGBTQ+ center where teens join live-chat, professionally facilitated, online support groups, and how over the time that she's been doing work in LGBTQ+ spaces products and online interaction have changed and evolved.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel, and with me, today is Deborah Levine, Director of LGBT YouthLink at CenterLink, which supports, strengthens, and connects LGBT centers. Deborah, thank you so much for joining me.
\n\nDEBORAH: Thanks, Chad. I appreciate you inviting me.
\n\nCHAD: So I was first introduced to you and to CenterLink through the Q Chat Space product. And that's still going, right?
\n\nDEBORAH: Yeah.
\n\nCHAD: But you're working on something new called imi.
\n\nDEBORAH: Mm-hmm. We actually just launched imi on June 1st.
\n\nCHAD: Congratulations on the launch.
\n\nDEBORAH: Thank you. Yes, it went pretty smoothly. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: That's good. So, what is imi?
\n\nDEBORAH: So imi is a free digital research-backed mental health tool. It was developed by Hopelab in partnership with CenterLink, and the It Gets Better Project, as well as hundreds of LGBTQ+ young people across the U.S. It's a little hard to describe, to be perfectly honest. It really is intended to support and help LGBTQ+ teens explore and affirm their identity and learn practical ways to cope with their sexual and gender minority stress.
\n\nAnd we really hope that the tool is helpful, relevant, inclusive, and joyful. It is a web app, but it operates...it's not a lot of reading. It's listening, and doing, and thinking, and really giving youth an opportunity to explore and consider ways that they might help support themselves.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. And I suppose it's even a compliment to your prior work at CenterLink and with Q Chat Space, which is an online support community.
\n\nDEBORAH: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: People can use both.
\n\nDEBORAH: Exactly. We actually engaged in a partnership with Hopelab because we recognize that though youths were really excited about and engaged in the support groups that Q Chat Space provides, those are synchronous, and they happen once or twice a day. They last for an hour and a half, but that's all there is. So if you come to the website when a chat isn't happening, then there's not much to do. And we wanted to be able to provide youth with something else, and imi really fills that gap.
\n\nCHAD: So when it comes to the product itself, how long was it in development for?
\n\nDEBORAH: Great question. Of course, there was the pandemic, so there were some delays related to that. But it was about two and a half years from when Hopelab first approached CenterLink until the actual launch date.
\n\nCHAD: That's a fairly significant amount of time.
\n\nDEBORAH: It is for when you're working, I think if we were only tech firms, but both Hopelab and CenterLink are nonprofits. And the process included a lot of steps. So we actually had a prototype pretty early. But because we wanted to make sure that we did put something out into the world that actually had the impact we were seeking, we did a randomized controlled trial. We had 270 youth, half of them using a similar-looking website with just resources and the other half using imi. And we did that randomized controlled trial as well as a test of marketing. Those were both pieces that extended our timeline. And then ultimately, we also wanted to launch during Pride Month, so we timed it for that.
\n\nCHAD: This idea of a randomized control trial is pretty incredible to me. A lot of product people wouldn't necessarily do that; maybe certain companies do. Why do you think you went in that direction?
\n\nDEBORAH: So our goal is not to make money. And ultimately, if that was the goal, then we put something out, we see if people are using it and using it at the rate and the ways...I'm a social worker, so my business lingo is going to be limited. [chuckles] But that's the way to test it. And if youths use it but don't have any impact or potentially even harms them, which is not the case usually; it's just neutral, but if it doesn't have any impact, it's not worth our time.
\n\nAnd so, a randomized controlled trial really allows us to see whether or not it's working and then to make changes if it's not. We're testing not only whether it works in terms of the impact but also whether or not youths were interested and wanted to use it. And those are important elements for us before we're going to go out with something.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. That's what I was thinking you [chuckles] would probably say. In your work, correct me if I'm wrong, but your main demographic that you work with is youth.
\n\nDEBORAH: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: You alluded to this earlier, but how do you make sure that you're building products and things that they want to use?
\n\nDEBORAH: For sure. So it's really about involving them in the process. Going back in time to Q Chat Space, the idea for Q Chat Space actually came from focus groups we did with youth. It wasn't an adult who thought this is a good thing to do for youth. We really went to them to see what it was about and then kept youth involved in the process. We had youth involved in the design process. We had youth involved in the conceptualization and design and continue to this day to have a Youth Advisory Board who participate in Q Chat Space chat and give us feedback. And when we want to change something, we look to them.
\n\nAnd similarly, with imi but we have even more resources. We have, over time, including the randomized controlled trial, involved over 600 youth in the production and creation of imi. And really, the process was so deeply embedded with the youth that we used the language of co-creation and really make sure that youth are saying exactly what it is that they want and need and that they'll be willing to do.
\n\nSo we did qualitative research in 2019 with over 350 youth initially all across the United States, all the way to Anchorage, Alaska, and to Birmingham, Alabama, and a bunch of places in between. And of those interviewed, 61% identified as racial and ethnic minorities. We really did want to make sure that this reached those youth as well as trans and non-binary and gender-nonconforming youth.
\n\nSo we always oversampled or over-included those youth. And we also engaged with organizations that serve youth and know youth in a daily way, a lot of LGBT centers, and other organizations as well. And really, again, focused on organizations that are made by and are focused on QTBIPOC or queer and trans youth of color.
\n\nCHAD: Over the time that you've been doing this work, has expectations around online interaction, what products are, how youth will use them, has that changed? Has it been evolving?
\n\nDEBORAH: It certainly has been evolving. I mean, I think it's an interesting question. I'm not sure of the timeframe that you're asking. In terms of the work that I've done, I started doing digital health education in 2007. And I remember very well because the person who interviewed me and became my boss said, "You don't have to even know anything about technology. Don't worry; we'll figure that out."
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nDEBORAH: They didn't expect, and to be honest, I say to people all the time that if somebody came to me now with a resume that I had in 2007 for one of the jobs that I did then, I would not have hired them. Things have changed dramatically. I mean, that's obviously 15 years we're talking about. Things have changed so very dramatically in the last 15 years.
\n\nBut even I would say thinking about Q Chat Space, because Q Chat Space launched as a pilot in 2018 and then launched nationally in the summer of 2019, and then the pandemic hit 7-8 months later. And the concept of a digital support group we had to explain that to people at Q Chat Space. And now, post-pandemic, we don't have to explain that anymore. And if anything, we have to differentiate ourselves in ways that we never had to.
\n\nThe irony of Q Chat Space, in particular, is that it was started both because youth identified the need but also our member centers, the LGBT centers, often had inquiries from youth who couldn't access them in person, and many of them started satellite programs, but still, you know, a 13-year-old you could live next door and not be able to get. There are other barriers besides location and distance. And so, at that point, centers really wanted to do something digitally, but they couldn't because they didn't have the resources. They didn't know how to do it, or they were concerned that it would start and then youth from all over the place would be contacting them.
\n\nBut in a matter of weeks, maybe months, once the pandemic set in and the kids were...just like school figured out how to do things, the LGBT centers did as well. And so now Q Chat Space is one of many virtual programs with many different mechanisms. But I think it's really shifted, and youth are more open to it. Not that they weren't before, they definitely were, but they know more. There are less questions about what's this? What's going on here? I think there's a broader definition of what a virtual experience can look like because youth have been participating in synchronous and asynchronous and in text-only and video, and it's just there are so many ways.
\n\nIn terms of imi in the last couple of years, all over the pandemic, but imi itself, I think, actually, the landscape for imi hasn't changed. But interestingly enough, Hopelab actually came to us with another product that they had already developed and they were hoping to use as the backend, which was a chatbot. They had created something called Vivibot, and it was helping young cancer survivors build resilience. And we know that resilience is an important quality for any person, but particularly: youth, it's important to develop it. And when someone's young, it's easier, not that it's easy.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nAnd they thought that they would be able to use that technology, but ultimately the testing with young people really revealed that they didn't want a chatbot. If you check out imi, which is imi. guide, you can see that there are actually several chat experiences within that are the last remnants of that initial chatbot that we started with. But youth weren't interested in a chatbot, and I think that's one thing that's changed is that they have much higher expectations for automated communication.
\n\nI formerly worked at Planned Parenthood. They have a great product called Roo, that's a chatbot. We talked about it before I left there. I wasn't there when it was started. But there are high expectations for what a chatbot can do. And I think there's also just an understanding, oh, this is a bot, and that's okay. Versus a few years ago, maybe people wanted to pretend that it was a real person. And now it's like, no, it's fine that's it's a bot. I understand, and it's okay that this kind of conversation can happen with a chatbot. So there are a few things that I think have changed, but I'm also not a trend person.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nCHAD: No, that's okay. That's great. So when it comes to...we talked a little bit about the timeline and the process you went through to arrive and launch imi. With multiple parties all bringing things to the table, how do you tend to manage the products that you work on?
\n\nDEBORAH: Sure. So Hopelab, really, I give almost all credit to Hopelab. I mean, I was really pleased to partner with them. And I definitely feel that CenterLink and It Gets Better bring a lot to the table. But ultimately, Hopelab did something I haven't seen happen very often, which is really helping nonprofits work together in a collaborative manner. It's a struggle.
\n\nI think nonprofits are competing for funds and donors. And it's a little bit more difficult to collaborate. But Hopelab really led this process and took us all through it and made sure to really put youth at the center, which I think is the force that we all have to remember when we do have conflicts between nonprofits is that we're all in the same missions, and missions that match each other in terms of helping the community.
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\n\nCHAD: Do you have people...when it comes to a project like this, are you hiring people? Is it a full-time team working on it? How does it tend to usually shape up?
\n\nDEBORAH: No. [laughs] It doesn't shape up like that. At this point with imi, Hopelab really focused on what our current capacity was. They're continuing to support us in a lot of ways. And they do have a full team. But the product that they're handing over to me, me as a non-techie social worker, I can manage it. It's on Squarespace. There are a lot of integrations, but they have made sure that those are things that I can really manage. I mean, I'm not a non-techie, really. I'm underestimating myself. I'm under-selling myself.
\n\nBut ultimately, I am going to manage that with...I have a staff person who works full-time on Q Chat Space, not a technical person. They're really there to support facilitators and the youth as an administrator and manager, and that person will help me with promotion. But otherwise, imi is a tool that is out there and doesn't...I mean, we'll update it and make changes. But ultimately, it's not a team once it's launched. But the development, yes, it was about 14 people more or less throughout the last two years.
\n\nCHAD: I think that that's great and really important. Software isn't cheap. It's not easy. And if you're put in a position where you're putting...I don't know the right word; burden comes to mind. Like, the burden of future work and maintenance and investment in an organization that maybe isn't set up to do that that could be a problem.
\n\nDEBORAH: Right. Now talk to me in six months or a year, and I'll know more. [laughter] But that said, even with Q Chat Space, I, with hundreds of people, including folks at thoughtbot and other places, volunteers, and donors, and supporters, really made Q Chat Space a reality, but I was the lead on it. And again, I used, you know, off-the-shelf products, basically.
\n\nAnd I have a developer for the website. But besides that developer, who is a part-time person, we manage. We figure things out ourselves. We get help from volunteers. We bring in a consultant here and there. But we try to keep the technology slim, trim, easy, user-friendly, whatever language we want to use. So that really serves the purpose of the youth. We don't need to be using anything fancy per se.
\n\nCHAD: I could be misremembering, but I think when we were first talking, one of the first conversations we had this came up with Q Chat Space. Because if you look at what it does and the problem set, and particularly the market, I think there could be a tendency for someone looking at that especially, I'm a programmer, and so I want to solve problems by programming things. You could say, "We should really build something specific for this.
\n\nDEBORAH: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: It's not that difficult. It's just a chat thing. There are lots of these things out there." And I'm right in terms of the actual core functionality. You could bang that out in a little while. But doing that would create a burden then to you have a custom piece of software that you need to constantly evolve, maintain, and those kinds of things. And so I think this was a discussion we had about what was out there in the ecosystem, what open source or other things you could pull together so that we weren't creating that burden.
\n\nDEBORAH: Exactly. And interestingly, my developer has said to me many times, "I could just build something for you." [laughter] And I say, "No, like, I don't need that." And ultimately, we did end up going with an open-sourced product; it's Rocket.Chat. We picked Rocket.Chat. This was in 2017, I think. We looked at 30 different products. And there were that many products on the market already, and today, I think there'll be even more. But ultimately, we just took Rocket.Chat because it's highly customizable. For those of you who aren't familiar with Rocket.Chat, it's like Discord. It's actually the same code, from what I understand. It's sort of like Slack.
\n\nBut in the end, we were able to...because there's a lot of like, turn this on, turn this off, turn this on, turn this off, just a lot of different features, we were able to just make it into what we needed. We're using it in a way that very few people are using Rocket.Chat because we opened up a channel just for that hour and a half, and then it's gone. It's not an ongoing conversation. But Rocket.Chat has been a great supporter. They give us a fabulous nonprofit rate and really appreciate the unusual use case that we have for their product.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's great. I think one of the things that hopefully motivates a lot of people is having a positive impact on the world. This is Pride Month. You alluded to it already. And I think it's important that we celebrate Pride. I think you have a great organization that I hope people will get involved in and pay attention to even outside of Pride Month. How has it been for you? And sometimes, it's hard for me to judge are things better or worse in terms of really supporting LGBTQ+ youth today?
\n\nDEBORAH: Both. [laughs] It's better, it's worse. There's no question to how far are we going to go back? But there's so much more media representation, and more schools have GSAs, and more people know someone who's LGBTQ. And I think it's different for lesbian, gay, and bisexual folks than it is for trans and non-binary and gender non-conforming folks. There's more acceptance of sexual orientation differences than there are gender differences. But I think culturally, that's changing, and as a result, there is currently quite a large...the word coming to me is flashback, but that's not the right word. Backlash, push back, exactly.
\n\nAnd we are seeing alarming numbers of legislative efforts to particularly limit what transgender and gender nonconforming and non-binary youth can do and what their parents can do. And that is very alarming and certainly highly regressive. But I do think that it comes out of the fact that we have moved forward in so many ways.
\n\nSo for any young person who's listening or any of you who are listening, you can say this to the young people in your lives like, "You deserve to be yourself. You deserve to be able to be yourself and open. And you deserve a good and strong and mentally healthy life." And that message is really what imi certainly gives, a joyful life. It is about pride. We are proud to be LGBTQ. There's nothing to be ashamed of. And yet there are many forces in our culture and government who do make young people and adults feel shameful about it. So that's really what we're trying to counter.
\n\nCHAD: And that's one of the great things I think about when it comes to online tools is because you could be in an environment where you're not supported, where you don't see that support or people like you, or it could be very isolating. And the ability to reach beyond your family boundaries and geographic boundaries and connect with people who can support you is really great.
\n\nDEBORAH: It is. And to know ultimately, the tools are really designed to acknowledge that some young people have to keep it a secret or private. They're not ready to come out. Both websites have a quick exit, so a young person can click on that and go right to Google. imi also times out after 10 minutes.
\n\nAnd it's an interesting thing because the folks who are regressive, going back to our last bit, those folks jump on that and say, "Look, they're keeping it a secret from their parents." And we're like, well, if the parents are going to be abusive, then yes, we're going to keep it a secret from their parents. But if the parents want to figure out how to be affirming, we are with them. We want to help them be affirming.
\n\nSo it really does allow youth...both tools really reach youth who may feel as if they have no one around them. And imi, in particular, provides community in a way youth don't even have to talk to anybody else. But they're going to hear the voices and see the faces of other young people dealing with similar things. imi is rich with those stories as well as other activities. And then on Q Chat Space, they can connect to a real other teenager who's dealing with similar things but maybe in a different state or a different country even.
\n\nCHAD: I guess that's another...I think the conversation I was having was very U.S.-centric, too. And you think things are bad here; they're even worse in a lot of other places in terms of LGBTQ rights and support.
\n\nDEBORAH: They are.
\n\nCHAD: And I guess that's another benefit of online. It really crosses those boundaries too.
\n\nDEBORAH: It does. And we have enabled that on Q Chat Space and imi. Both are accessible from anywhere in the world. We have heard from youths in 149 other countries, I believe [laughs] on Q Chat Space.
\n\nCHAD: Wow.
\n\nDEBORAH: And we just launched imi, so we don't have that data yet, but it is available. Unfortunately, right now, imi is only in English. Q Chat Space, we do have a weekly chat in Spanish. So we welcome any youth who prefer to chat in Spanish on Monday nights. But imi from now is just in English. But other than that, I mean, the reality of colonization is that a lot of youth speak English, even if it was not their first language. So we have had chatters from Korea, Vietnam, Australia, UK, and everywhere in between.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. If folks want to get involved, where are the best places for them to do that?
\n\nDEBORAH: Sure. So anybody who feels like they can help in any way, whether it's tech help, or with financial support, they can connect with us through the websites. And we will happily figure out ways to get engaged. In terms of your more traditional volunteer situation, I recommend folks go to the LGBT Center Directory that we have on CenterLink's website; CenterLink's website is lgbtcenters.org, and find your local LGBT center. They have many opportunities for volunteers as well as support and tech help. If you check out their website and you think it doesn't look so great, [laughter] offer help with their website.
\n\nSo there are a lot of ways to get involved in the LGBTQ community between these two products, as well as just the LGBT centers that the two products are really meant to serve. I didn't really mention that, but we have 300+ LGBT centers that are part of the CenterLink network that we work to support, strengthen, and connect. And imi really is a product that none of them would be able to develop on their own. And this way, they're all able to use it as if it was their own. That's one of the beauties that, of course, the greatest impact is for youth. But for our centers to be able to have that kind of resource available to them, we owe a huge thanks to Hopelab for doing that for CenterLink and all of our members.
\n\nCHAD: We're going to include links in the show notes for all of the things that you just mentioned.
\n\nDEBORAH: Awesome.
\n\nCHAD: I really encourage people to if you want to reach out with your time and get involved, that's great. You can also, as Deborah said, go there and donate. If you can't donate your time, but you can donate some money, that'd be great. Deborah, thank you so much for stopping by and sharing with us. I really appreciate it, and I appreciate all the work you do.
\n\nDEBORAH: Absolutely. It was a pleasure. Thanks so much.
\n\nCHAD: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks so much for listening, and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Deborah Levine.
Sponsored By:
Johanna Mikkola is the Co-Founder and CEO of Wyncode Academy, recently acquired by BrainStation, whose project-based programs have helped over 100,000 professionals launch new careers in the tech industry.
\n\nChad talks with Johanna about creating a digital skills training bootcamp, the hiring and training market and challenges, and prioritizing inclusion and diversity in the student population.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. And with me today is Jo Mikkola, the Co-Founder, and CEO of Wyncode Academy, recently acquired by BrainStation, whose project-based programs have helped over 100,000 professionals launch new careers in the tech industry. Jo, thank you for joining me.
\n\nJOHANNA: So excited to be here. Thank you.
\n\nCHAD: I actually think that the weather we're calling from today might not be so different. It's very warm and sunny, and everything in Boston. So I'm pretty happy today. How are things where you are?
\n\nJOHANNA: That's great. We're coming to you live from the 305 in Miami, and it's turning into summertime here, which means it's pretty hot and sticky. But I'm originally from Finland, so I can't complain.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJOHANNA: The novelty after eight years of living here has not worn off on me. I do enjoy the sunshine and the palm trees.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. So we'll definitely circle back and talk about Miami and the tech industry there and everything. But before we do that, I'm curious; you have recently been acquired by BrainStation. Let's rewind a little bit to getting started with Wyncode and what brought you to creating a digital skills training bootcamp.
\n\nJOHANNA: It's been quite the journey. It all started back in 2013, and at the time living in Toronto. I, at that point, had been working at the National Hockey League in Toronto for eight years and had just joined the management there on the hockey operations officiating team, which was an amazing chapter of my professional journey, and I love all the individuals that I worked with there. But I got to a point in that career where I didn't quite know what the next step would be professionally, and I was looking at getting an MBA.
\n\nBut at the same time, while I was working at the NHL, I was helping lead an internal software build project. And it kept coming to the forefront for me that wow, hockey is being disrupted by technology or technology is being very integrated into something I thought, you know, I didn't think I would see that happen. And at the same time, my co-founder, who's also my husband, we're both from Finland. His name is Juha. He was an entrepreneur in the e-commerce sporting goods space, and he actually had joined a coding bootcamp in Toronto, an early one.
\n\nAnd as he was going through the process, we were both kind of at this inflection point professionally about what we were going to do. And so everything he was learning, the transformation of individuals he was witnessing first-hand, him experiencing that himself, and me being a non-technical business person leading a technical project at the NHL, we were like, wow, we're on the cusp of some serious change in the world, and we want to be part of that wave. So we were like, where can we go and be first to market to provide this life-changing, career-changing education and, in turn, really dive into not only education but also the technology space?
\n\nAnd ultimately, we landed on Miami. We had actually looked at Austin, Texas, and Los Angeles as options as well. But we arrived here in Miami, and it was very like a Hollywood thing. We were sitting at the coolest cafe in Miami at the time. We were here on Christmas holiday. And we, on a napkin, started writing ideas and brainstorming. You know, founders get very excited about logos and brainstorming names, or at least I do.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJOHANNA: And it all came together really quickly. That was December 2013. We attended a startup meet-up here. We met four key players in this ecosystem, some of which are major drivers today, like the Knight Foundation and Endeavor. We heard their vision, and what they were doing, and how much funding was being put at the time into building a tech ecosystem in Miami. And we were like, wow, we want in. So we went from concept to launch in three months’ time.
\n\nAnd it was a pretty exciting ride. I mean, so much happened in that time [laughs], and obviously, the acquisition came early last year. And so we've kind of seen it go full circle. And for me professionally, I went from being a startup founder working very regionally, being somewhat nationally known but being a strong regional player, to being a global player overnight with BrainStation. So that also has been really exciting.
\n\nCHAD: At thoughtbot, we helped create a web development bootcamp around the same time actually.
\n\nJOHANNA: Love that.
\n\nCHAD: And that was for Kaplan, and they ended up purchasing Dev Bootcamp and then shutting it down. So I have some experience, and not only that, but thoughtbot has hired a lot of people from bootcamps into our apprentice program.
\n\nJOHANNA: Love that.
\n\nCHAD: So, from a hiring and training perspective, I think it's great. From a business perspective, it seems to have been a very challenging market. How did you weather that?
\n\nJOHANNA: Oh yeah. I mean persistence, unwavering commitment to the people we worked with, and the people we were helping gain these skills to change their careers. And like with any startup, there are moments where it's like, wow, you know, this is a big challenge. How are we going to overcome this? But we've always had the mentality of if there is a will, there is a way. And don't get me wrong, it doesn't always work out. But fortunately, now that I have hindsight, I can say that that mentality resulted in where we are today, and it was very positive.
\n\nAnd I have the really fortunate position of looking back on those stressful moments and seeing the lessons now, which is such a gift and maybe also alludes to me being old, I don't know. [laughter] But it really was a great journey. And I mean, the challenges started in the beginning for us, which is turns out it was a federal offense to operate without a license in the state of Florida, you know, lots of details to talk about there. But come full circle, we ended up being the first coding bootcamp to be licensed by a State Department of Education in the entire country.
\n\nSo even though other people were operating in their states, it was different statutes, different legal requirements. And so, we were the first to be licensed. And as a result, we actually helped advise some of those other big names that we all see in the coding landscape to explain how it worked for us. And shout out to the Florida Department of Education and Commission for Independent Education for working with us to make it all come together. But it started off with a very exciting beginning getting that letter, which was essentially telling us to shut down before we had even begun. [laughter] And it all worked out. And we have a great relationship with them. And we learned a lot there.
\n\nAnd I will say just in the coding landscape, what ended up happening and what's happened with a lot of for-profit education is there was a huge opportunity, and there still is. People really genuinely need these skills. They really need this vocational training, and the companies hiring really need this talent, as you know firsthand. And so a lot of people jumped in and saw that there was money to be made because professionals and maybe also people who can afford it...there are a lot of financing companies that came in.
\n\nAnd so the thing that started wavering is the quality in terms of the training. And that's one of the things that you just, you know, one of the things we were unwilling to compromise at Wyncode and also why BrainStation, I like to say, is our soulmate because they feel the same way. To go from zero to software engineer or zero to UX designer (We also teach data science and digital marketing.), it really takes high-quality education, high-quality educators, and a high-quality network to do that at the level that we want to do that.
\n\nAnd then the other thing that a lot of people fell into is this desire to scale really quickly, so take in too many students which quality goes down, open too many locations, quality goes down. And to be the best, you got to learn from the best, and that means learning from software engineers, product designers, individuals who are really highly sought after right now. So, in the same way that software companies are facing talent issues, for us, that was also a key piece for us to solve and work out.
\n\nWe're really fortunate that in the space of education, this is such rewarding work. We build such amazing relationships with the people coming through the programs and, in turn, are contributing so much to our local ecosystems that it hasn't been that hard to attract amazing talent to be our educators because it is so rewarding. They're getting an opportunity to apply their craft to something they love and really shape the minds of future technologists. And it's just a wonderful thing to watch and be part of, so really fortunate to be in that space.
\n\nCHAD: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's one of the things that has made the space challenging is you come into it with the desire to have that really high quality, but there's a cost to that. And if you don't scale the number of students, you might have trouble covering that cost. How did you balance that?
\n\nJOHANNA: In the early days of Wyncode, it was easy because we were self-funded, and we were growing organically. So we were quite conservative about how we scaled and how many people we took on, and we stayed very true to that. And honestly, we stayed very focused on the state of Florida. So at one point, we actually had three locations; we had Miami Beach, Fort Lauderdale, and Miami, and we scaled them down to have a large HQ in Miami. Because we saw that when the team was together, and the community was together, the overall experience from network to learning was better because we were self-funded.
\n\nAnd then, later, when we had partners who were committed to quality, we were able to make decisions for the sake of quality instead of profitability. And then now with BrainStation, I mean, BrainStation is an incredible company. It's been around for ten years. It has been very successful. And right now, what we've been able to do is invest. BrainStation is in a position where we're investing in different pilots to see what things will make learning even better than it already is, although I will say it's at a really high quality right now.
\n\nAnd so we're in a fortunate position where, of course, it still needs to make sense. The unit economics needs to make sense. But we're also doing everything we can to continually iterate and make it a great environment for people to learn in. And I think that has come with taking the approach that we're in a long-term marathon. We're not in a sprint with what we're building right now. And I think a lot of the companies in this space that ran into issues were really sprinting to a certain scale, which is a way of operating that we haven't operated.
\n\nCHAD: Well, so based on what you've said so far, I can make certain assumptions about how you answer this next question.
\n\nJOHANNA: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: But I think it's an important topic, and so I want to make sure even if it's obvious that we talk about it and that's how to bring in students, how to scale the business while still prioritizing inclusion and diversity in the student population, in your organization. What sort of attention did you put on that?
\n\nJOHANNA: Yeah, so this is a really key one. I mean, in the early days of Wyncode, we were able to do things in a different way than we are now with BrainStation. But I would say Miami is naturally a very diverse and international ecosystem. And so, from the beginning, we really wanted to see that reflected in the people who were in our programs because I knew that would, in the long term, provide so much value to building a great ecosystem.
\n\nAnd so, in the beginning, we partnered...we worked very hard to partner with The Knight Foundation to launch what was called The Future Leaders of Tech Fellowship. This is an example of something we did with different groups throughout all the years and continue to do today, but I'll use Knight as the example, which essentially was a full-ride scholarship for underrepresented individuals in technology. So the first iteration we ran of that was a full-ride scholarship because we thought that was the main barrier.
\n\nThen we realized that a lot of these individuals who hadn't had the means before and didn't necessarily have the educational training needed a little extra training, and they needed to start working right away. So what we created was a pre-program for them. It was a full-ride scholarship, and then it was a guaranteed three-month paid internship at a tech company. And of all the people who went through that program, the majority transitioned, with the exception of two, transitioned into full-time salaried roles. And those are incredible stories that are truly life-changing.
\n\nBut I think the important thing there and what we learned over time is people need support, financial and educational, and they need time. So obviously, in an accelerated learning program, you want things to go as quickly as possible but through the help of partners and making it work for certain communities, we were able to do that. We also partnered with the YMW...it's the Women's...YMCA for women. I cannot remember the acronym right now.
\n\nCHAD: WYMCA.
\n\nJOHANNA: Thank you. Thank you. We provided a program in-house for them specifically.
\n\nCHAD: No, it would be the YWCA.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nJOHANNA: Yeah.
\n\nCHAD: Sorry to interrupt you.
\n\nJOHANNA: I'm sorry. I'm not doing you all a good service here. But it's an amazing organization here in Miami. And that was geared specifically towards women from disadvantaged backgrounds, giving them the education they needed. And with that group, we had actually a 70% success rate, which was wonderful. Those are individuals who had no options for any type of white-collar position, many of whom we still keep in touch with today.
\n\nSo, in the beginning, with diversity and inclusion, we were doing things at a smaller scale, very specialized, and very catered to make sure that they were successful in the hope of eventually building more momentum to do this. And the work very much continues. So BrainStation, larger company, we have a lot more firepower in terms of what we're able to do.
\n\nSo we've partnered with companies like Ernst & Young, Shutterstock, Microsoft with our Impact Scholarship, which is also full-ride scholarships for the underrepresented communities in technology, and that's been really successful as well. And, again, education is really rewarding, but it's also really rewarding to see, in particular, those success stories.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, one of the things when I speak at bootcamps or when I talk to apprentices who are joining us, I often reinforce or remind them that they bring something to the table, which is really special. I started programming when I was in middle school. I went to school for computer science. Aside from a brief stint as a dishwasher and a checkout person at a grocery store, this is all I've ever done. And I recognize that that has pros and cons.
\n\nLike, I just don't have the same perspective and diversity of experience, let alone actual demographic diversity that many of our team members bring to the table. And there's something special in that, whether it be from your experience working in another industry like hospitality or something like that. You bring a perspective. There are so many hospitality startups, for example, that would love to bring a new developer onto their team who actually has industry experience. It makes it very powerful for people.
\n\nJOHANNA: Yeah, absolutely. And I think oftentimes, people in anything when you're transitioning a career, there's maybe a little bit of imposter syndrome or a lack of confidence. And I see oftentimes not only minority groups but everyone shying away from their previous professional backgrounds. But technology is built for us, for humans who are very diverse in background experience and the products and services that we need. And so we really try to emphasize at Wyncode and at BrainStation to lean into your past profession. Because if you can bring that through and really focus on the things you learn there, you can provide so much firepower to what you're building with technology, and it’s super important.
\n\nAnd I will say healthtech is big in South Florida. And so we have had various people with some type of health background, whether they were an assistant or worked in a medical office, or we've had a few doctors go through the program. They were, as you can imagine, really sought after for the healthtech companies because not only do they bring technology skills, but they have this understanding that no one else does. So it's really unique.
\n\nCHAD: You're part of the tech industry now. [laughter] How has that diversity of background...you mentioned at the beginning, at the top of the episode that you were originally at the NHL, to starting to lead software projects there. How have you leveraged that for yourself and for your business?
\n\nJOHANNA: Oh yeah, 100%. So we do an exercise at BrainStation where you have a chart, and you plot out your past professions, and you look at the things that you learned, and the mistakes you made, and the things you didn't like, to start to build a thread of what are things carrying over? And for me, the thing that has come to the forefront is technology or not...and I feel like anyone investing is also saying this all the time, and maybe founders say it too. But it always comes down to people and relationships and how you are listening and taking in the information to then digest it and deliver something.
\n\nAnd so, I think my ability to connect with people and mobilize people around common goals is something that has been a common thread throughout my career. It's interesting. I'll say some of the best things I learned as a founder came from engineers, the first being agile. Like, we weren't operating like an agile company in the beginning because we weren't a software company. And our very first hire was a guy named Ed Toro, an MIT graduate. Shout out to Ed. It's actually his birthday.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJOHANNA: Incredible, incredible engineer originally from Boston. He was our lead educator for software for so long. And he just brought so much knowledge to us about how software is built and works. And we integrated that into how we operated as business people and organized the company. I mean, it's amazing. I actually don't remember what it's like to not be organized in that manner anymore. Although I can tell you going from the NHL to Wyncode was a huge jump because NHL, even though we were using and leveraging technology, was still organized very traditionally.
\n\nAnd so I'll give you a simple thing, some software teams...I know a lot of software engineers appreciate transparency. So, in addition to organizing in a very agile method in terms of how we operated the business, we also pivoted to be extremely transparent as a team as well in terms of how the company is doing, which is something that is not common in a multibillion-dollar industry like the NHL. Although you see that more and more with tech companies, which is interesting.
\n\nCHAD: How long ago did you join up with BrainStation?
\n\nJOHANNA: So we were introduced to the founders and owners of BrainStation really because they were potentially looking at coming to Florida. And a mutual friend, a mutual business person, had said, "Hey, you know, if you guys are looking at Florida, probably you guys should meet Jo and Juha. They built something called Wyncode. You're going to get to know them anyway." And so I would say a little bit over a year and a half ago, we started chatting. And we realized that we had a lot in common in terms of how we had built the businesses, where we wanted to see the business go. And the rest isn't history because we're a year and a half in.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJOHANNA: So you know what happened. It all worked out. It's really great but also really excited for the future. Because now with the BrainStation acquisition comes a lot of firepower in terms of experience on the team, much larger team, capital, reach of team. We have students in over 100 countries. So I'm very excited for what we're going to do in the future as well because we can have so much more impact, and that is really exciting as well.
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\n\nCHAD: You mentioned before you had a very Florida-specific focus previously. Is part of this next stage to be working across BrainStation and really working more globally?
\n\nJOHANNA: Yeah, so working regionally with a focus on South Florida but with the know-how and the resources of a global team for sure. And being on the senior leadership team here, I am still 100% focused on Florida, but I get to have perspective from all the other markets. We have five campuses in New York, Toronto, Vancouver, London, and now Miami. So that's very interesting. And I have to say, when we were running Wyncode, we were always like, man, I wonder, how it's going in New York?
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJOHANNA: Or I wonder how it's going in Vancouver. Well, now I know. So it is really interesting because it also gives you not only a perspective in terms of bootcamps and how that's going but also a perspective on those ecosystems and how the tech companies there are growing and hiring. Because we're at that really interesting spot where we always know everyone's closed a round of funding because they go on a hiring spree. And then we see the bigger companies who are continually hiring. So we always kind of have a little bit of a pulse on what's going on in all of the ecosystems.
\n\nAnd also really, before, we were primarily American students in the southeast, but now as BrainStation, I mean, it's global. So seeing how different everyone is but also still so similar in terms of their end goals and collaborative, it's really special. And yeah, it's been great.
\n\nCHAD: So you have the campuses, the geographic locations, and then you have the global students. Are they in different silos, or do the two groups of students interact with each other at all?
\n\nJOHANNA: Yeah, great question. So we do execute our..., and we call them diploma programs for the bootcamp programs, both online and in person. So as you can imagine, students in over 100 countries we're executing in all the time zones because of online delivery. But much of that, if they're outside of the geographic region of one of our campuses, they're likely an online student.
\n\nCHAD: Are they being taught by an instructor in one of the campuses, or is it a separate thing?
\n\nJOHANNA: Yeah, our educators are located in our campuses geographically.
\n\nCHAD: How did the pandemic change or not change the experience of students, and what you needed to offer?
\n\nJOHANNA: Wyncode, at the time, we were still Wyncode when the pandemic hit. I'll never forget having an all-hands meeting in our conference room and being like, hey...it was a Thursday. We're like, come Monday; we're going fully remote. We weren't a remote educator at that time. Everybody needs special permissions and licenses to also have remote teaching, which most governments made exceptions for because of the pandemic. So we were all good there.
\n\nBut we were thinking at the time, oh, maybe it'll be a month. Well, two years later, we're just about to have our grand reopening of the space in Miami. Our other campuses have already opened. And it was pretty exciting. When the pandemic hit, there was definitely an oh no moment. Like, people paused their enrollments, understandably. That was March. But as we got into early summer, we actually saw enrollment skyrocket. So huge success was pivoting to go remote.
\n\nWe were very fortunate that we had a pretty seasoned senior team on our software and UX side. And they had been through the world of remote learning and just being on tech, you know, Yahoo, Google. They had worked at Yahoo, Google, so they knew remote, and they were able to help us and bring that expertise. So the transition to remote was easy. And then we got all these students. And actually, that started a wave which has continued to this day of really people having an appetite for online learning and continuing to want to pivot careers into technology, both out of individuals' interests for technology but also because of the demand.
\n\nSo the pandemic was terrible. Business-wise for sure, there have been challenges, but there have, I would say, been a lot more successes and opportunities as a result of the pandemic. And for me personally as an entrepreneur, the pandemic got us, you know, we were doing well and having a lot of success, so the pandemic also got us on the radar for BrainStation. We started that conversation, and that was really exciting. And, again, here we are as a global educator now.
\n\nCHAD: I've talked to a lot of people and seen it in our applications as well, like, it was really two things: people losing their jobs because of the pandemic and then getting that opportunity to take a look around and say, you know what? I'm not going back to that industry, and I want to learn to code.
\n\nAnd then a lot of other people saying, you know, sort of the great resignation kind of stuff saying like, I want to change and actively switching as well. And you can see it in our applications the number of switchers, the number of people who have taken the last year, year and a half to do a remote bootcamp and make a career transition. It was always high. It's even higher now.
\n\nJOHANNA: Yeah, totally agree, like, very respective of what we see as well. And we've had a great relationship with CareerSource South Florida as well. And they fund workforce transformation. And so initially in the pandemic...we're not seeing those layoffs now, but initially, a lot of those people who were getting laid off many of them were able to qualify for CareerSource as well, which also really fueled people's ability to take part in this education.
\n\nAnd South Florida is interesting. I think 65% of the workforce before the pandemic...a lot has changed. Tech has moved in, a lot of big names have moved in. But before the pandemic, 65% of people professionally here were working in hospitality or real estate so it was definitely a big pivot for some people to go into the direction of technology.
\n\nCHAD: That's great to hear that they were able to be helped by that because that can be a big impediment to this. I believe that the cost of an average bootcamp for what you actually get and for the impact it can have on your salary or your compensation is worth it. But if you can't afford the tuition, then it's a non-starter.
\n\nJOHANNA: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then it goes without saying, but there are some people...there are a lot of opportunities. There are a lot of jobs. There are a lot of ways to get in, but it doesn't mean that it's for everyone. And I think for us, some of the work that's required to get into the program in our admissions process and our advisors who spend a lot of time with people considering this are also helping people guide this thought process of what they go into and what they're going to do to decide if it's the right direction for them.
\n\nAnd I think ultimately, the large majority who come in have done good research and good work and have really thought it through, and it's a good fit. But again, it's not for everyone. So it goes without saying it's good to go online, do some coding. Download Figma if you're going to go into UX. Tinker around with some stuff. Ask some people, go to some meetups, and then start looking into the education piece.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. Are there ways in which you're exploring how either through partnerships or that kind of thing like it sounds like you've done to make it more accessible to people?
\n\nJOHANNA: Yeah, so we put, again, Wyncode and BrainStation now puts a lot of importance on building a diverse, inclusive environment. And the most important thing is just collaborating also with organizations in our various regions that serve communities that are underrepresented in tech so that we can provide certain pathways to this. And one of the key things that we're doing with our Impact Scholarships, I think we've committed over $1.2 million just as BrainStation to giving those pathways.
\n\nThe other thing that we're piloting right now is what we're calling Tuition Free. So we piloted in London. Miami is the only other city we're testing it with in-person learning, not online, but it being completely tuition-free for the individual coming into the program, which we're calling a trainee. And then working with some amazing partners here in South Florida, in London who essentially, if they opt to hire someone for the program, are going to be paying a percentage training fee for hiring that individual.
\n\nSo we're really excited to be piloting what's called a reverse model. But more so, training people in a very specific skill set that companies need, eliminating financial barriers as much as possible, and then also providing a very robust, rapid pathway for this incredible talent to then join companies. And maybe we'll do a synopsis in about a year, and I'll let you know how it all went.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] That'd be great. That'd be great. So a common thread throughout this conversation has been Miami, and it's come on my radar recently in terms of the ecosystem there and how it's expanded and grown significantly over the last several years. You mentioned you picked up and moved there because you identified it as a great market. What has it been like for you?
\n\nJOHANNA: It's been a whirlwind. I mean, #Miamitechisonfire, literally.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJOHANNA: It's a pretty exciting time to be here. I got to say, when we moved in 2014, our campus was and still is based in Wynwood, which is a wonderful creative space but also mixed in with tech companies.
\n\nCHAD: Is that why it's called what it's called, Wyncode?
\n\nJOHANNA: Yeah, that's right. [laughs] Wyncode and Wynwood, yep. So the landlords knew they really had all the leverage, right? But we have had, and I've always had, an amazing space here. And when we first opened, the biggest complaint we got from people who took the program was there were not enough places to eat. And for anyone who's listening who's from Miami and spent time in Wynwood, that sounds crazy because now all the hottest restaurants are here in Wynwood. And that's happened in the span of, you know, I know we've been here for eight years, but that's happened like in the last five years.
\n\nSo a lot has changed. Wynwood is kind of an analogy to what's happened in the rest of Miami. It was kind of like a little bit quiet and slow, known for hospitality, awesome partying, real estate, not really known for all of this other stuff. The pandemic, again, was horrible from a business standpoint, terrible for some people, amazing for others. It was amazing for Miami. The state of Florida remained relatively open throughout the pandemic. So that attracted people here. The tax situation, no income tax, has also been very appealing, particularly for anyone who's made a lot of money in tech and crypto, in particular from Miami.
\n\nAnd then we have this incredible Mayor, Mayor Francis Suarez, who, long before what's happening now, has been an advocate and supporter of the tech ecosystem and startup founders here, which I've personally had experience with. He's been amazing. You know, in Silicon Valley, there was some social media going on for anyone who saw it on Twitter, and he tweeted back, and he said, "Hey, Miami would love to have you, guys. How can we help?"
\n\nAnd so there's this tagline in Miami which is how can we help? Trying to be an ecosystem that's here to help that's open to all. And that's been going on now for almost two years. And as a result, there's been a huge number of people in technology in particular who have moved here, both big names like Jon Oringer, Founder of Shutterstock, Keith Rabois, Founders Fund. There are so many people to name down to founders who are like; I'm starting a new startup. I don't want to do it in New York or Silicon Valley. I want to do it in Miami. So that's really exciting.
\n\nI can tell you; there's more going on here than I could...before I could keep an Easy Calendar, I knew everyone. I knew what events were going on when and now it's just...there are multiple events, meetups, multiple companies to meet. So it's really, really an exciting time. I think Mayor Francis Suarez has said this, too but definitely making a play to be the capital of crypto. So there's a lot going on in the crypto space here, a lot going on in Web3. Like Web3 being at the beginning, this is still at the beginning. This is a moment that we're hoping to turn into a movement, and I think it's really, really exciting.
\n\nI don't think everyone is going to stay here. I don't think Miami is going to be the next Silicon Valley or New York. It has its own character. It has its own vibe. It has its own way of functioning, and that's what it is. Its original kind of environment is also what's attracting people. So it's an evolution right now. It's going to change.
\n\nThe people who have come here and who have been here are all in the process of evolving to what the next chapter of Miami tech is. But it's definitely an exciting time. It was a place for me where I came to professionally reinvent myself as well and really be a part of building an ecosystem. And that's very much true today for anybody who is coming here. And I think that type of opportunity is really, really exciting. There's definitely an energy, yeah.
\n\nCHAD: The state of Florida has passed laws like the Woke Act recently, which can present a challenge to employers strictly speaking. You're not allowed to ask certain questions around diversity or inclusion in interviews now. And that can be uncomfortable or difficult to do business in or to say, "Hey, we're the most welcoming company. Come here. Come to Miami." Is that something that's, you know, I'm not there. So is it a challenge on the ground, or does it not really affect people day-to-day?
\n\nJOHANNA: I mean, that's a really good question. I would say I haven't encountered it personally or even on the professional side with how we've been hiring. So it's hard to say from my perspective. I think certainly there are some things going on in Florida that Florida and California are very different. I myself I'm not an American. I'm not as involved in the politics. But it'll be interesting to see what happens in the future and how these things shape.
\n\nI will say that employers have a lot of power because they're the ones who are bringing in a lot of money into a state. They're hiring people. And so some of the responsibility is also on the companies and employers who are in their respective areas to advocate for the things that they want to see. And one of those things is diversity, inclusion, which not everybody has made that a number one priority.
\n\nAnd the one thing that I've said in the past is creating an inclusive and diverse ecosystem is the opportunity I think that Miami has because it is a less established tech ecosystem. The canvas isn't fully painted over, so we have an opportunity to be unique and be different and to try to avoid maybe some of the biases that have existed in other tech ecosystems.
\n\nBut at this point, while there has been progress made and there are some amazing individuals doing amazing things like Leigh-Ann Buchanan leading Tech Equity Miami and JPMorgan Chase coming in to support that in a really big way and Knight Foundation, we're still at a state where the minorities are advocating for the minorities. And that's something I hope to one, personally contribute to changing but as an ecosystem as a whole hope to see that happen. Because, like I said, Miami is attracting people for a certain reason, and that's great. And I think if we could build a diverse ecosystem, that would also attract certain people and retain certain people.
\n\nAnd I am a firm believer, and, I mean, there are also stats to back it up, but the best products are built by the most diverse teams. So it goes without saying that the most diverse ecosystem is going to result in the best companies, best environment, et cetera. And I think that's the big opportunity for Miami, but we still have a lot of work to do to get there.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. Well, if folks want to follow along with you or get in touch with you or learn more about BrainStation, where are all the places that they can do that?
\n\nJOHANNA: Yeah. I would love to connect with everyone. On LinkedIn, we have all of our respective social handles just at BrainStation. Even our Wyncode handles are still alive, so that's great. My parting words would be if you know someone amazing, a professional who wants to pivot careers and learn in person, now is an amazing opportunity to apply to BrainStation for incredible education and network. And I'm really looking forward to seeing amazing professionals come through the program.
\n\nCHAD: And I assume if you're in a position where you're hiring talent that you should also check out BrainStation.
\n\nJOHANNA: Yes, thank you, Chad. We 100% the thing we take the most pride in is connecting this amazing talent with awesome companies. I always like to tell everyone to keep a very wide lens on the type of talent you're hiring for your technology teams because some of the best individuals have very non-traditional tech backgrounds but bring so, so much to the table.
\n\nOur team does a lot of work in terms of once we get to know a partner, which I would love for you all to reach out and join; we do a lot of work to make sure that we are connecting curated talent to companies. And if you go to brainstation.io/hiring-partners, you'll be able to sign up there.
\n\nCHAD: Wonderful. Jo, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.
\n\nJOHANNA: Great. Thank you so much. Great to be on.
\n\nCHAD: You can subscribe to the show and find notes and a transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks so much for listening, and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Johanna Mikkola.
Sponsored By:
Jeni Barcelos is the Co-Founder and CEO of Marvelous, the world's most beautiful all-in-one teaching platform.
\n\nChad talks with Jeni about what makes Marvelous different from other teaching platforms out there, the importance of elevating women to leadership positions, and why applying for and getting accepted into an accelerator program was the right path for the company.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Jeni Barcelos, the Co-Founder, and CEO of Marvelous, the world's most beautiful all-in-one teaching platform. Jeni, thank you so much for joining me.
\n\nJENI: Thank you for having me, Chad. I'm excited to be here and excited for our conversation.
\n\nCHAD: So I'm really excited to dig into more about Marvelous as well. So why don't we start there? What makes Marvelous different than other teaching platforms that are out there?
\n\nJENI: Marvelous is different in that we prioritize design, I would say more than any other competitive platform. And we also prioritize live events in a way that I think is pretty unique. So we started in the wellness space. We primarily are serving wellness creators, although all kinds of other creators use our tool as well.
\n\nSo we specifically built Marvelous with the goal of serving their unique needs, which involves a lot of teaching live classes and having a really great community space where students and clients can build relationships with each other. And then, because our audience has a particular design aesthetic and is non-technical, we've created the tool in a way that makes it really easy to make something look beautiful very quickly and simply.
\n\nCHAD: So what caused you to differentiate yourself based on design?
\n\nJENI: I think just personal preference and aesthetic, to be honest. As we were building the platform, I realized very quickly that people were choosing us...one of the big reasons people were choosing us was because of the simple nature of the user interface and because of the design that it produced. And so we decided really early to prioritize that. And I would say it's also just I care deeply about design, and I don't like the idea of using tools that make that an afterthought.
\n\nAnd so I thought if I'm going to use it, and I do, I mean, we definitely dogfood our own platform and teach our own courses, we run our own communities there, I want it to look beautiful. [laughs] I want it to be a place that people enjoy spending time. We all spend more time, I think, than we want looking at screens. And so when you are going to engage in that practice and engage with other people on the internet, I think it's really nice to do it in a space that feels welcoming, and gentle, and beautiful.
\n\nCHAD: So you have a co-founder, Sandy. Are either of you designers or have a background in design?
\n\nJENI: Nope, not at all. Although I was one course away from minoring in art history in school. [laughter] No, I'm a lawyer. So I'm the opposite of a designer, although I think there's a part of me that thinks of myself as an artist. I wish that were my identity.
\n\nCHAD: So, given the importance of design that you discovered, how did you go about executing on that?
\n\nJENI: Hiring really great people, I would say, and having a really critical eye. And so, there's a tremendous amount of feedback that goes into our process. And now we have a head of brand in our company, and she can hold space for that design across both marketing and within product. So that hire, I think, has been critical for us to be able to maintain that as a priority.
\n\nCHAD: Where were you in the product life-cycle and business stage where you were able to hire really great people?
\n\nJENI: I would say within the last two years. So we are one of these startups that was in the right place at the right time when COVID hit. So luckily and unluckily, maybe we grew really fast in the wake of the pandemic, the beginning of the pandemic. And so that positioned us to hire pretty rapidly over the last two years. And that's when we really had the resources and the capacity to bring in that level of talent.
\n\nI'll say our creative director was working with us for many years before that but just in a part-time capacity so, you know, running her own agency. And we were hiring her out as we could because we were bootstrapped. And so it wasn't until we reached a certain level of growth where we could bring her on as a permanent fixture in the company.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's often a way that I hear from founders to help get things off the grounds, particularly if you know of someone and would love to work with them and you know what they can produce, but you just can't afford to bring them on full-time as a member of the team at that point. Contracting with them, working with them part-time can be a great way to get that started. So let's rewind even further and tell me about the fateful day where you and Sandy first met each other.
\n\nJENI: Yeah, so we first met in Colorado Springs at an entrepreneurship event. And it was for an online program we had both been in that was teaching us how to start a SaaS company. And we are two of the only people that had actually done it and gotten to paying customers within six months, which was a pretty audacious goal, I would say to go from being non-technical and having no experience in the startup world to having a product or at least an MVP with paying customers within six months and no funding.
\n\nSo we were 2 of maybe 5 or 6 people out of 550 in the program who did that. So we automatically kind of gravitated towards each other. And we were two of the only women also in the program. So we met at that event and got to know each other over the course of a number of days and retreated together. And then we just started really being accountability partners to one another as we were each building our own companies independently. And then that went on for another year, year and a half before Sandy joined my company.
\n\nCHAD: Okay, so you were already working on Marvelous?
\n\nJENI: Yeah. It had a different name at the time, but yes, I was six months into it when I met her.
\n\nCHAD: How did you convince her to do that?
\n\nJENI: We were actually growing...for a solo founder, we were growing to the point that I couldn't manage the company really on my own anymore. And so I applied to an accelerator just because I felt like I had other kinds of career experience but had, again, zero background in tech startups. And so, I came from teaching at a law school and building and scaling a nonprofit. And my background was in politics prior to that. So I had no idea what I was doing. Like, I didn't know what I didn't know, and so that thought scared me. And I just wanted to go immerse myself in an environment where I could ask a lot of questions and have access to resources and mentorships.
\n\nSo anyway, I applied to an accelerator and got accepted contingent on having a team and having co-founders. And I was like, [laughs] well, that's why I need to come here because I don't know how to do that. Like, I don't know how I would do that. And so I reached out to Sandy because I mean, she had been more closely involved in the company than anyone else because we were constantly working together online and going on Zoom and helping each other build our companies.
\n\nShe knew more than anyone else really what was involved. And she was always commenting how she wished she had started [chuckles] a company like this because it's just in the sector. Her background is in clinical wellness, and Marvelous really was serving yoga and wellness teachers. And so I said, "Well, why don't you come on board? I need to have at least one co-founder." Well, I was told I needed to have two, but I convinced them actually to accept me into the program with just one. So Sandy and I went into the accelerator together.
\n\nCHAD: I feel like that's a great sign that you were able to convince them to bend the rule. [laughs]
\n\nJENI: Yeah, I mean, I think that's actually my MO in life. So I also applied and got into graduate school at Yale without taking the GRE. So I have a history of these kinds of convincing arguments, I guess.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJENI: And I'm a lawyer, right? So I was made for this. [chuckles]
\n\nCHAD: Yes. You sound like a very enjoyable person, though. So I find it hard to believe that you're... [laughs] No, I'm kidding.
\n\nJENI: I'm a human rights lawyer. So the only person I've ever represented in court was a pod of killer whales. So I'm a human rights and environmental attorney. So I'm not a corporate attorney by any means.
\n\nCHAD: So some people might describe going after things, bending the rules as ambition. And I was reading some of the things that you've written, so I'm not pulling this out of thin air. But I know that you talked before about how sometimes ambition, particularly from female-identifying people, can be seen as a problem. Why is that?
\n\nJENI: I mean, the short answer to that is the patriarchy of which we're all a part. Both men and women and non-binary people are all impacted greatly by the patriarchy. I mean, I think it's how girls are socialized. So that's a whole, I think, a whole other podcast conversation to have. But I mean, just even recently, I have a young daughter, and she was told not to raise her hand as much in school because she was so eager and raises her hand for every question that's asked. And that's unacceptable to me. But I was also told those things.
\n\nAnd I think just men and women are judged very differently in our culture, and that's just a fact of life. I mean, just look at, I mean, this is maybe opening up a can of worms. But if you just look at the way the Elizabeth Holmes trial played out versus so many other startup stories, and yes, there are differences, but it's really common in our culture to villainize female ambition and to look at it as problematic.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, you're absolutely right that this is a whole podcast topic in and of itself, but I think it's an important one. But I'm curious; it can feel angering and powerless when something like that happens at school or in a system where it's very hard to control it or change it. But when it comes to your own company, you are in charge. So what have you done to try to make this different at Marvelous?
\n\nJENI: Well, I would say elevating women to leadership positions to the extent that we've been able, I mean, we're definitely a female-run company. We make decisions. Also, just even the way we provide benefits and salaries, it's in my mind done from a more holistic standpoint than I would say a lot of other small startups are doing. We prioritize people and their families and try to treat people like human beings versus just kind of pawns in our scheme to build a company, I would say. It's not perfect.
\n\nBut I really think that so much of what goes on around kind of the women in tech stories so much of that and the women in fundraising stories has to do with women or non-binary people really having to prove themselves to a degree that is unrealistic in order to have the same treatment or the same opportunities as white men. So we are obviously very acutely aware of that. And so, in our own company, we're still very small but always trying to elevate the opportunities that women and people of color have in our company.
\n\nCHAD: And as you said, this permeates. It's systemic. And so, what might you do when you have a male manager with the best of intentions in a female-led company? I'm of the opinion that it's not enough to just assume that, oh, well, in that environment, this stuff won't happen because it is so ingrained. So are there other things that we can do as founders, as people, and leaders, as a company to create an environment where it's better for everybody?
\n\nJENI: I definitely don't have all the answers for this. But I would say we've put a lot of attention into coming up with core values that we really strongly affirm and reaffirm in the company and make sure that everyone is aware of those. I also just I'm constantly watching what's going on and noticing subtle cues when people start to pull back from contributing or some voices are much louder than others; just trying to notice that and not wait for something to be brought to my attention.
\n\nI think so much of it is also the culture, and it's hard in a situation like ours where we're a fully remote team with people across the world with their own different, you know, they're bringing their own cultures and their own values to the company. I mean, it's definitely hard. It's harder than I ever would have expected to get people on the same page.
\n\nAnd, I don't know, I don't have really good advice other than to say the founders should really agree on the core values. And then, those core values should be shared constantly. And I think it starts with the founder or the co-founder and the leadership team holding everyone to those values and standards.
\n\nCHAD: So as someone who, like you said earlier, you're not a software developer, you're not a designer, yet you are working on this idea and bringing it out into the world. How did you manage to do that? What did the very early steps look like for you?
\n\nJENI: So I started a company when I was essentially on maternity leave. I naively thought that that would be like a fun, little hobby project for me to start a tech company. Partly because I was spinning off what had really been a research project that was funded and incubated at a major university. I was spinning that off into a nonprofit with another co-founder, another lawyer. And I spent a great deal of time and energy fundraising and was constantly going and having meetings or drinks or dinner with people or even flying out to different foundations and meeting with donors.
\n\nAnd I was like, this is for me who...I have a body of work and have developed expertise as a climate change expert. And that word is problematic but, you know, someone who knows quite a lot about climate change in the law, edited one of the major textbooks in the area, taught some of the first curriculum on energy and the environment. I was constantly having to just go out and raise money all the time and mostly from people who had cashed out of tech companies.
\n\nSo I was in Seattle at the time, you know, Microsoft and Amazon. There are a lot of people with significant wealth, and those are the people that are donating to organizations. And so I just thought I'm as smart and capable as these people. Like, why don't I have a revenue source that helps to fund the work that I want to do in the world? Which was a lot of human rights law and environmental law that's really underfunded really at that intersection of climate change and human rights.
\n\nAnd so I thought, well, I'm on maternity leave. I'm really interested in the wellness industry. I see it really being broken. I had gone through yoga teacher training like right at the tail end of law school just for my own mental health and wellbeing. And I just saw all of these friends and colleagues of mine struggling, and I just thought something wasn't quite right. So the first thing I did was I decided I'm going to try to build something to help them. And I set out to interview 75 yoga studio owners or managers in North America and did some research on the biggest markets at the time.
\n\nCHAD: Why 75?
\n\nJENI: Because I just thought that was a good number. If I talked to 75 people, I'd be able to have some good information. And I will say I had just come off of a couple of major projects where I had put together a big international conference in my field in climate justice. And I had also put together sort of a retreat of leaders in the field of scenario planning around that.
\n\nSo I had really learned a lot and elevated my real career at the time by reaching out to people who I thought were thought leaders and experts in the field across different disciplines and having really honest, frank conversations and interviews with them. And I had been able to essentially tease out an entire field of work for myself from doing that.
\n\nSo I brought my research and academic skills to bear, which was like, if I talk to enough people, I'm going to start to find some patterns. And I was curious, like, I couldn't quite understand. This wellness industry had been growing for over a decade at that point. It was this massive industry, and yet no one I knew who worked in the industry made any money. And I thought that was really weird. And I'm like, why is all the money going to apparel companies or a couple of big brands? Something is really broken in this model. I don't think the technology...tech hadn't really arrived to wellness at that point.
\n\nI came up with the idea to start doing this at the end of 2013, and so it was a long time ago. So I was just like, I'm going to talk to as many people as I can who are running businesses in the major metropolitan areas that are big yoga centers and just see what I can figure out. And so that's what really started it. And then, the idea for what was then called Namastream and is now called Marvelous came from those conversations. And it wasn't long; it was maybe six weeks into the research that I really started to...like, there were three or four ideas that I thought, well, here are product ideas that could really make a difference.
\n\nAnd so what I did is I sent out about 200 cold emails, and I had 74 interviews from that. And then I agreed to create a report like a white paper because, again, this is what I knew how to do as an academic is like I'm going to do a bunch of interviews, and then I'm going to write a report about it. And I'm going to share it with people. So I agreed to share the research with everyone who agreed to an interview. And so I think that's part of why they agreed to talk to me.
\n\nSo yeah, so that's where the idea came from. And then again, I had no background in tech. I watched some trainings on how to do UX design, I think, like YouTube videos and stuff, and then I just did it. And I made the first prototype like a clickable prototype in Keynote because I knew how to use Keynote.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's so great. Talking to people, using whatever tool you're comfortable with, Keynote, PowerPoint, that kind of thing to do clickable prototypes that's the exact kind of thing I encourage, we encourage our thoughtbot early-stage founders to do. So you were spot on. I don't know if you realized it at the time. But that's really great. What problem did those 74 or some strong subset of them have that streaming helped them with?
\n\nJENI: It was really interesting because there were a couple of studios. There were two studios at the time in Southern California that were doing this, and the bigger studios in these other major cities knew that. And so because there were so few, they were very well known way back. I mean, most of those conversations were in 2014 that I was having. Some of the studios, I mean, one of them is still a major company now.
\n\nYou know, most studios had like 2,000 members. Like, a studio that I would interview had 2,000 customers on their list, like, possible customers. Some of those were people who were drop-ins or punch cards or whatever. And then the studios that were streaming had like 30,000 customers. And so that was starting to be known. And people had no idea how to do any of that themselves.
\n\nAnd so the problem that we are solving was when I would interview studios in the Boston area because that was one of the metropolitan areas I targeted; there were certain days out of the year that for snow closures like the studio would just lose all their revenue that day. In the south, there were studios that were impacted by hurricanes that were trying to figure out...and I'm a climate change lawyer, so I see this trend. I was looking at it from a disaster response scenario planning lens which was this is only going to get worse. I had no idea about the pandemic.
\n\nCHAD: Little did you know. [laughs]
\n\nJENI: Right? [laughs] I just thought like, wow, okay, the hurricanes are increasing in severity and duration. That's not going to change. Sea level rise is happening. Storms are becoming more unpredictable. Like, places that are cold are getting colder and have more snow on average. So all these people were complaining about lost revenue for these cataclysmic weather events. I just thought that as being a huge opportunity for a solution. So that was one reason why this idea really stood out to me.
\n\nAnd then also just knowing that...this actually goes back again to my own story. I used to work for Al Gore. I was one of the people that led his environmental outreach on his presidential campaign when I was a teenager. And then I ended up being one of the first people trained to give the climate presentation that he made famous in An Inconvenient Truth.
\n\nAnd so, I had been developing presentation materials in my legal and academic career that I was sharing with that organization. And I had to figure out how to record myself and then try to get it on a thumb drive and then send it to Nashville so they could watch it and learn how to present the slides that I was making.
\n\nAnd so I actually had this very different use case where I was like, it was really hard. I was on the board of another nonprofit that was bringing together environmental leaders once a year to learn new training materials and then go back out across the world to disseminate them. Again, the same thing. I was like; there is going to be such a need for some kind of streaming tool that's accessible by whoever wants to use it to be able to share knowledge and information. So both as a business tool, but it also kind of scratched this other itch that I had seen in my previous career, like, the career I thought I was taking a short break from.
\n\nAnd so I just was like, this is the future. And I had moved during this time across the country for my husband's job and had a new baby. And I missed my own yoga teacher. And so I thought, like, wow, I'm in North Carolina in this small town, and I really miss the Seattle community. And I miss my teachers there. I wish I could take these classes.
\n\nSo for all of those reasons, I saw this as being a trend that wasn't going away, and that was only going to be more in need. And it was really early adopters at that point, like definitely not 74 studios telling me they needed this. But it was a big enough chunk of early adopters that I thought this is when you get to make something new that changes the industry.
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\n\nCHAD: So you have the clickable prototype, and you feel like this is something here. What was the next step for you?
\n\nJENI: So I went back to everyone that had validated that idea, and I tried to sell it to them. [laughs] I had people PayPal.Me money in order to build it. I said, "You can become a founding customer, and you'll get access for a year included and with a payment." I think I was charging people; I don't know, a couple of thousand dollars. I don't even remember. It was a long time ago. It was under $2,000. "So you can get in now. You'll have a 20% discount on anything we make forever.
\n\nIf you want to participate, you can be in this founding member circle with me. And as it's getting developed, you can provide feedback and help to shape exactly what it becomes." So I had enough people throw some money into the pot PayPal.Me money. I also had no idea how to take money from anyone. It was sort of like pre-Stripe being a normal thing. So I just had random people PayPal.Me money. And I took the money, and I hired a developer to build a prototype.
\n\nCHAD: How did you find that developer?
\n\nJENI: That was hard. So through this entrepreneurship course that I ended up meeting Sandy in, there was somebody who was a classmate, sort of like a mentor-level classmate who had done the course before who was an engineer at Microsoft. So I asked him to help me. I reached out and asked him to. And if I hadn't reached out to him, I would have reached out to other developers that I knew, just people in my extended circle of friends and stuff.
\n\nCHAD: So how long did it take from that point to get a product that people could actually use for their classes?
\n\nJENI: Early use, I would say like four months. So it was very, very, very beta. It's humiliating what it was.
\n\nCHAD: It should be. It should be humiliating.
\n\nJENI: Yeah, it should be. So it was like kind of a WordPress plugin. It was basically a glorified WordPress plugin, and that took about four months. And so I onboarded our early adopters who had given me the money, the checks, the PayPal money. That was the beginning of the summer that year. And I said, "You're the only people that are going to have access to it for the first three months," and that was part of the deal.
\n\nSo I really worked around the clock helping them, working with my developer to solve any problems that were coming up, making changes. And then, in September, about three months later, I just figured out how to run Facebook ads. [laughs] So I just made up Facebook ads that ran to a one-on-one demo and let people book one-on-one demos with me through Facebook ads.
\n\nCHAD: So in those early days, if you had to do it over again, is there a lesson you learned that you might do it differently?
\n\nJENI: I don't think so, honestly. I feel like that first year; I feel pretty good about everything that I did. I mean, obviously, it would have been great to have someone like Sandy come in early on. But, I mean, I needed to figure some stuff out that I didn't need another person around to figure out, I guess. And I guess now, in like 2022, we're having this conversation. I wish I had dumped money into Facebook ads to have more demos because they were so cheap. [laughter]
\n\nCHAD: Right. Right.
\n\nJENI: It was so cheap for me to run ads. It was the golden days of online advertising, I guess. So I was probably paying like 40 cents a lead or something. [laughs] So yeah, maybe that. Because I was very much not wanting to put my own money into it. Like, once I raised the money to fund the prototype, I think I maybe in that first year put in like seven grand or something, but by the end of the year, I paid myself back.
\n\nCHAD: That's great.
\n\nJENI: I could have maybe put in a little more money. But I didn't know if it was going to work. Like, I wasn't really willing for...again, I wanted something that was very validated. And I expected fully to be going back to my career as soon as I got this thing launched. I was like, oh, this is just like a side hustle. This is going to be passive income. I did not understand that building a software company was not at all passive. I think I really bought into this idea that, like, oh, it's the internet. It will be passive income.
\n\nCHAD: When did it become clear to you that it wasn't?
\n\nJENI: Oh, I mean, I would say, you know, so I had a moment to go back to work, not my exact same job but to do work in my field between one month and two months after I launched and started running ads. I turned down a really incredible job offer, and I think that's when I knew it.
\n\nI was like, if I take a job, if I go back to work full-time...and I have the kind of career that's all-encompassing, and I sort of, whatever, I'm going to give 150% to whatever I'm doing. And so I knew that this thing would kind of die, but it was taking off. And so, I think I knew at that point I had to make a choice.
\n\nCHAD: And is that when you decided to apply to the accelerator?
\n\nJENI: No, it was like another nine months of growing it on my own before I applied to the accelerator. And I just kept doing what I was doing, and it was working. But I was doing things that didn't scale, so that was the problem. And so I didn't know, I mean, there's only so many one-on-one demos that the founder can do before you start to realize [laughs] you need to make some changes because I was doing them around the clock.
\n\nAnd then, at some point, I switched to webinars. I taught myself how to do webinars. And so then I was trying to do demos to multiple people at a time, but also, I didn't understand email marketing. I didn't understand copywriting. I was figuring everything out myself as I went, and I was burning out. So that's when I decided, like, oh, not everyone does this. I can't grow Microsoft or Amazon by doing this. I can't become that company. So obviously, I need to figure out how to scale. So that was when I decided to apply to the accelerator.
\n\nCHAD: Why apply to an accelerator as opposed to start fundraising, for example?
\n\nJENI: Oh my God. Well, so the whole reason I did this was so that I didn't have to go out for drinks with people and ask them for money. [laughter] I mean, I was not interested in that at all. And then I soon realized that that's what happens when you join an accelerator [laughs] is you basically just start learning to fundraise. But I didn't know that. I knew nothing. And so, I knew nothing about startups. I knew nothing about anything like this. I literally had no idea.
\n\nSo the idea of going and sending emails to wealthy people to go have a drink with them was actually the last thing I was willing to do. And I don't think any VC fund would have met with me. I didn't even really know what that was. Like, I had no idea. So it didn't strike me as something that there was a lot of money that somebody would pour into it. That, honestly, wasn't even an option to me in my mind at that time.
\n\nCHAD: How did the accelerator help you?
\n\nJENI: It helped me bring on a co-founder, which I would say was invaluable. [chuckles] And I learned a lot. I mean, I'm a person who's super curious and asks lots of questions. And so there was always somebody I could ask questions to, which was great, saved me a lot of time. And I also got to be in a cohort with other founders and see how they were growing their companies. So if you've never been around that stuff before, it's super helpful, I think, to just learn what other people are doing, like what other models there are, what other teams look like.
\n\nAnd I also realized, like, we were one of the only companies that had any revenue. I had no idea how we compared to anything else. And so I realized, oh, we're growing, and we're making money, and we're profitable. And it's really different than what a lot of other people are doing. So I knew that there was something to it also. I knew that we were really onto something. And then I will also say that fast forward a number of years, and our leader, one of the directors of our accelerator, I ended up hiring him to be our Chief Product Officer. So that was also very fortuitous [chuckles] and really an amazing story and outcome as well.
\n\nCHAD: Did you end up raising money coming out of the accelerator?
\n\nJENI: Nope. We soft circled around and had an opportunity to take an additional tranche from the accelerator, and we walked away from that at the time. And it was a really hard decision. Mostly because Sandy is Canadian, I don't know if that was made obvious, and I'm American. And we never envisioned wanting...like, building a remote company still in 2016 was not normal. And there was no way we were going to be in the same place. And the potential investors we were talking to, one of them in particular, was pretty adamant that we needed to be in person and have an actual office set up. And that was not negotiable for us.
\n\nAnd so we had been doing this fine. I mean, we were fine building a company together. And our first developer was in Asia, and then our designer at the time was in another part of the United States. So I was like, why would we do that? Why would we spend money and have to buy things like a fax machine and chairs? Why would we do that?
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJENI: That doesn't make any sense. And so that was one kind of red flag for me. And then also in the accelerator, I pitched to tons of people because you're sort of pitching, but also it's kind of practice. And I don't know how much of that was actual pitching. And I don't know how many of those investors were actually considering making investments, or they were just being nice and giving you their time and feedback.
\n\nBut I pitched a ton, and the only people that we had soft circled were women. And I just had some negative experiences with some of the investors that we had pitched to, which that's also another podcast episode. And I was really bothered by, in particular, one conversation that I had. It was like a situation where someone said something really inappropriate to me, and I just absolutely did not want to do that. So that all factored in.
\n\nCHAD: Have you ever taken any investment?
\n\nJENI: Yeah. So this year, we have...because we have a situation where it makes sense to pour fuel on our...it made sense from a marketing standpoint to pour some money in. So we've just taken a small investment from angels, and we may take a little more as well. We're open-minded, I would say, right now about fundraising.
\n\nI have, in the last two years, taken a lot of meetings. So I've talked to lots of firms and lots of angels and get emails every day and so take a number of those meetings. So I've just tried to be really open-minded about it. So yeah, I would say I don't have such a negative association as what I had before. But I also would say my company is in a really different position now, and fundraising means something else to us.
\n\nCHAD: It sounds like you're in a little bit more control over the situation. And by working with individual angels probably, you're able to maintain that, I would guess.
\n\nJENI: Yeah. And it's definitely something where I think that there are...you know, I don't think it's helpful to be closed off to fundraising because I see that there are absolutely opportunities especially to go into new markets where being bootstrapped isn't practical because of the cost to go into those markets. And so, if it's something that's heavily regulated, for example, it's not a feasible option. So allowing us to have options and actually to be able to think through those options is important to me.
\n\nCHAD: So now that you've done that, what's next for Marvelous? What's the next challenge you're ready to tackle?
\n\nJENI: I would say we had this tremendous growth early in the pandemic, which really kind of unearthed, not really unearthed, I mean, I knew it was there [laughs] but really publicly unearthed a lot of technical debt. And that's, I think, normal for bootstrapped companies as well who are growing slowly and up to a point that they're not anymore. And so we spent a solid 18 months, I would say. Up until the end of 2021, there was a solid 18 months of really rebuilding the platform from the ground up. And so we've done that, and now we're in growth mode.
\n\nWe're focusing on letting people know that we exist because I think we're quite well known in the wellness industry and in the yoga space in particular, but we're not as well known outside of that in other creator niches. And so it's about brand awareness. It's about really showing up as thought leaders in the space as well. We do a lot of writing and a lot of blogging and podcasting. And in particular, we serve women and non-binary creators in a way that I think no one else does. And so it's about disseminating the information that we have and the teachings that we have and letting people know we exist, and we're a resource for them.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. Well, like you said, you have a strong reputation, and you have those roots in the wellness space, but you've expanded beyond that. If someone's out there listening, what would make them a potential customer or an ideal customer for Marvelous?
\n\nJENI: So anyone who's teaching, training, or coaching online, the software is really industry agnostic. And so we're just, again, not as well known yet in those other spaces. But especially someone who's integrating any cohort-based learning, or really heavily integrating coaching and live streaming, or group programs, or one-on-ones into an online course or a membership, for example, Marvelous is really second to none with all of that. Because again, live streaming and the integration of live teaching with on-demand content was what we started with and what we are known for.
\n\nAnd so it's not an afterthought the way that I think a lot of online teaching platforms and edtech companies have slapped on live streaming as like, oh, now you can integrate with Zoom or whatever. And for us, we have an integration with Zoom that's not like anything else. And then we have other WebRTC-based live streaming options, and everything is very well thought out and makes it really easy for the end-user so for the students and clients to be able to use the tool, which I think our audience really cares about that it's easy for their clients.
\n\nCHAD: I'd be remiss, and since this is a podcast, if I didn't mention that you and Sandy have a podcast.
\n\nJENI: We sure do, yeah. Thank you so much. laughs]
\n\nCHAD: It's called the And She Spoke Podcast, and where can folks find it?
\n\nJENI: So obviously anywhere that they listen to podcasts, but our website for the podcast is andshe.co. So I would love it if you're interested in conversations about women in tech, female founders, women, money and power, online business resources, and training. And that's mostly what we talk about. We're doing a crypto series right now, sort of like exploring crypto and the intersection of women and crypto, so that's going to be coming out shortly as well.
\n\nCHAD: Cool. If folks want to try out Marvelous or find out more or get in touch with you, where are all the places that they can do that?
\n\nJENI: So our website is heymarvelous.com. And we are @heymarvelous on Instagram. That's where we hang out the most. But we're also on TikTok, and Pinterest, and Facebook, and pretty much everywhere else as well. But Instagram, I would say, is the best place.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. Jeni, thanks so much for joining me and sharing your story and your advice. I'm sure people will really appreciate it.
\n\nJENI: Yeah, thank you so much for your time, Chad. I appreciate you having me.
\n\nCHAD: And you can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode along with a complete transcript at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening, and see you next time.
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Special Guest: Jeni Barcelos.
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Owen McGab Enaohwo is the CEO and Co-Founder of SweetProcess, a business process management software that helps management teams and employees easily document procedures, implement processes, and manage tasks.
\n\nChad talks with Owen about taking specific root issues and building software around them, overcoming resistance to the core idea of documenting processes, and the importance of having the freedom and ability to be empowered to make changes to organizational documents that outline how you do your work.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel and with me today is Owen McGab Enaohwo, the CEO and Co-Founder of SweetProcess, a business process management software that helps management teams as well as employees easily document procedures, implement processes, and manage tasks. Owen, thank you so much for joining me.
\n\nOWEN: Thanks for having me. I really appreciate you inviting me as a guest on here.
\n\nCHAD: I could only return the favor as I recently went on one of the podcasts that you run over at the SweetProcess. I'm happy to have you on the show.
\n\nOWEN: Great, great.
\n\nCHAD: Let's dive in a little bit to SweetProcess. You know, it's a tool for documenting process. And I'm curious what led you to founding SweetProcess and creating this product?
\n\nOWEN: That's a great question. So what happened was SweetProcess was actually founded in, I think, the fourth quarter of 2013. And before then, I had an agency where I would provide entrepreneurs in the U.S., so small to medium-sized business owners, with back-office support, basically, people in the Philippines doing back-office support for them here in the U.S.
\n\nAnd so people had read these books that were very popular at that time, The 4-Hour Workweek, or the World Is Flat. And then suddenly they realize that being able to hire people abroad and outsource work was not limited to only the larger companies like the telecoms and all that that would go and hire like 150 or more people in these countries working at their phone support 24/7 and all that. So these books exposed small business owners to the idea that even they themselves can do it on a smaller scale and outsource a lot of their work. And so that's what I was doing.
\n\nBut the issues that I ran into was that first of all; they were coming to me with this idea that the moment they hire that immediately the person will hit the ground running and start doing the work magically, not realizing that for that to happen, there needs to have been documentation in place. Because first of all, the person you're hiring is in a different country, different culture and all that. There's that that you have going against you.
\n\nBut then also, they're not even with you physically where you can say you can teach them by talking to them while they're next to you. So they're in a whole different location. So the more clear your instructions are in terms of having standard operating procedures in front of them, the more easier and quickly they're going to deliver the results you want, and so that was the first thing.
\n\nThe second thing was they were very busy wearing so many hats. They didn't have time to document these procedures that we needed to do the work for them. So we came up with this strategy where we would meet with our clients at the time online on Zoom, not Zoom; Zoom wasn't the thing at the time. It was...what was it called? Skype.
\n\nCHAD: Skype.
\n\nOWEN: Yeah. So we would meet with them online, and we'd have recorded sessions with them where they would walk us through what they were doing then record those conversations. And then, someone else on my team would take this conversation and document standard operating procedure step by step from what they told us.
\n\nNow, on the backend, the issue we had was to do this documentation and have tools in place so that people can actually have one place where they could go and find all these documents for our clients. It was either we were using enterprise-level tools that were first of all hard to use for my team talk less of the clients. So these tools were not even built for small to medium-sized businesses. Or we were basically hacking to get a bunch of free tools to achieve that purpose of documentation and having one place where people can go find stuff.
\n\nSo in the back of my mind, I was like, man, there has to be a better tool that does this. And so fast forward, I was invited as a guest on to Mixergy. It's another very popular podcast for tech startups. I don't know if you know of him. His name is Andrew Warner. And so, he has two versions of the podcast. The first version is the one where people go in there and talk about the biography of their business or themselves and how they were able to build a tech startup that sold for millions or whatever.
\n\nAnd then the other version of the podcast was one that was behind a paid subscription where people come on; they're experts, come on there and talk about specific topics like very concrete-sized topics that people are paying him to learn from. So people could come on here to learn about sales, marketing. In my case, I was brought on there to teach the listeners how they can basically document procedures and processes so that you can hand over work and no longer be the bottleneck in their business.
\n\nLo and behold, my co-founder, Jervis, who is a programmer and now my co-founder and CTO for SweetProcess, listened to that course that I did for Mixergy. He reached out to me and said he has an idea he is working on similar to what I was talking about, the whole way of simplifying documentation. And he just had some questions about this idea he had in his head. And being the kind of person I am, open to conversation, I said, "Okay. Let's go ahead. Let's meet."
\n\nSo we had a conversation. And after our conversation, I was like, "Dude; I'm running into the same issue that you're talking about right now because we do this for our customers. We do the documentation for them. But the tools are not the way they should be. Instead of me just giving you ideas on how to do that, and then you go from here, would you be interested if we go ahead and work together and build this software together and build this as a company together?" And he was excited. He was like, "Okay, let's do it."
\n\nAnd then I said, "Okay, instead of jumping ahead to build the software, one of the things I want to do is avoid a situation where the software ends up being hard to use and feature-bloated like the other software that we are running into right now. Why don't we spend some time having conversations with potential customers to totally understand this problem of documenting procedures and having one place where employees can go to find stuff and how employees can collaborate together to improve stuff?"
\n\nSo I wanted to really understand the problem by talking to people. So we spent like about a month or so. I spoke to more than 30 different people running different companies just to get the ideas of the problems they were having with this very specific topic. And we came back, we analyzed all the conversations, and we were able to put down a list of root-specific problems that people were having.
\n\nBecause people will suggest features of what they want, but if you drill down and ask them deeper and deeper like, "Why this?" You know, just going into the problem they have and try to get to the root why behind it, then you will end up having a situation where you find a bunch of specific things that are similar between all the different people you spoke to, but they are not saying the same features.
\n\nSo we took those specific root issues that we were coming across, and we were able to now go ahead and build our software based on that as opposed to launching a software where at the time with a lot of competitors has not as much features as they had. But we focused on simplicity. We focused on solving the root issues and getting rid of a lot of the complex stuff.
\n\nLike, for instance, some of the software were focused on having some kind of feature and technology sets where it was focused on the business consultant or the expert person on the company who's going to come and document stuff. But we said, "No, the owners of the business don't care about that. It's really more about how does this help them. They don't care about the terminologies and all that." So we got rid of all the bloat and all the stuff and just focused on simplicity based on having these conversations that we had with the people that I spoke of earlier and also based on my own experience using these harder-to-use software.
\n\nCHAD: Well, I really appreciate and commend that because it's a common pitfall. I'm a big believer in building software for yourself that you really understand and a product that you yourself are going to use. But some founders, when faced with that, they'll be like, "Well, I don't need to talk to anybody. I'm the customer. I know everything that is needed. And let's just do what I know we need to do." So to be in a position where you were able to take a step back from that and talk to some other people and make sure you were on the right track, that's really great.
\n\nOWEN: And besides the fact of talking to people to help us streamline and simplify the software, another thing we did was open my eyes to the idea that this problem we're solving basically run across multiple different verticals or industries besides the industry I was in. The industry I was in was basically the outsourcing industry, trying to help people outsource their back-office support.
\n\nBut I realized that the problem was even people that actually want to use the software for documenting didn't really care so much about outsourcing work. It was more about employees they have internally being able to do work predictably and at the scale they wanted it, delivering results that they wanted, and hence they needed that documentation. So without having these conversations, you don't get to see these things that you didn't know going in.
\n\nCHAD: Actually, that touches on one of the things I was wondering about, which is the market for your product is essentially every company in the entire world. [laughter] So, with such a huge potential market, are there things you've identified as who your ideal customers are or what kinds of customers come to SweetProcess on their own, what stage they're at, those kinds of things?
\n\nOWEN: Great question. So what we've realized is from the customers who stay 24 months or more with us typically are the much larger companies that have over 20 employees based on the data we have. So what we found is the smaller companies, we encourage them to use SweetProcess because we always want people to start early in the process of documenting procedures.
\n\nBut what you realize is that these smaller companies...let me backtrack. So the software solves that problem of having documentation in place and collaborating together to improve these documents over time. And that's really because they are trying to make sure that from a production standpoint of delivering the results to their customers, they have all these instructions. And so their employees can carry out those tasks that they cannot automate. Those tasks that need to be done by human beings, employees can carry it out predictably. Now, that's them trying to deliver output to their customers.
\n\nWhen a company is less than five employees or even less than ten employees, they don't have so much issues or worries with production. Their main biggest issue is how to get customers, how to get sales in the first place. So their focus initially is more on okay; let me figure out a system for sales. Let me figure out a system for marketing and all that.
\n\nBut on the other hand, when you already have 20 or more employees, to a large extent, you have figured out your sales pipeline, your marketing pipeline, and all that. And now you really want to make sure that the people you've hired can hit the ground running and do work predictably and deliver the results you want. So that's why it makes sense that these companies that have more employees tend to be the ones that have the need for the software, for what we do.
\n\nCHAD: Who ends up often finding and championing SweetProcess within an organization? Is it typically someone in a leadership position like a CEO?
\n\nOWEN: Great question. So it breaks down based on the size of the company. And now I'm giving you all the juice because my competitors are listening to this now.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nOWEN: But anyway, it is based on the size of the company. It's like if it's between 20 or let's say between 10 to 20-30 employees, most likely it's the CEO who has this pressure that, hey, I need to make sure that employees can go to one single place and find step by step instructions on how to do their work. I need to make sure the onboarding can be done faster. I need to make sure that if anybody leaves this company, we're not scrambling to figure out how work is done. So they start looking for a tool like SweetProcess.
\n\nNow, beyond that, let's say 30 to maybe 100 employees, it's now like the CEO, not the CEO but the Chief Operating Officer, someone who the CEO has hired onboard as the person in charge of operations at the company. Now, once we get beyond that 100 to, let's say, 1,000 employee kind of thing, we're now looking at someone that is a level below the COO, the Chief Operating Officer, and those usually are the operations manager.
\n\nSo that's how it works; it's based on the size of the companies. It's either the CEO that's reaching out to us or the Chief Operating Officer or someone who's an operations manager at the larger companies looking to...and especially with the operations manager thing, it's usually they're trying to bring in SweetProcess to start in their department or whatever and then usually to scale-out besides their department to other parts of the company.
\n\nCHAD: How do you reach those people?
\n\nOWEN: So you mentioned something that the fact that the problem we solve cuts across the board, different verticals. It's not industry-specific. So that's a good and bad problem to have. Because if you're only selling to a specific industry, all you got to do is basically be everywhere anyone who is in that industry is at, all the podcasts, all the trades, and everything, just basically be there, and that's it.
\n\nBut because the software we sell cuts across different industries, it's kind of harder to do that. So what we decided to do is focus more on creating content around the problem itself so that when people are looking for how to solve their problem, they're able to find us regardless of the industry they are in.
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\n\nCHAD: Do you find that there's resistance to the core idea of documenting process?
\n\nOWEN: Oh yes. There's resistance in different levels. Sometimes people think it has to be, you know, robotic, and sometimes they think it has to be complicated. Then it's also "I don't have time to handle the documentation." I hope that I also get to share some cheat codes on how to actually do that on this podcast. I don't want to leave the listeners just hearing about the history of the company but also giving them in case they're in that stage in their company how to go about it.
\n\nCHAD: Well, that's exactly what I was going to ask you about, so yes.
\n\nOWEN: Good, good. So, first of all, if you think about it, you only need to document procedures only at a time when you're trying to document how a task that you do on a repetitive basis, recurring basis. Because if a task is a one-time thing that you're never going to do ever again, well, there's really no need to document it. So we're now left with only recurring tasks. Now, people might just want to get excited and start documenting just because it's based on a recurring task. But I say, no, hold your brakes.
\n\nFirst of all, let's have this conversation with the employees and managers or whatever and say, "I know we've been doing this over and over again. But is this task necessary?" Because it might just be tribal knowledge thing where we've always done this, so let's keep doing it. No. But if you have that critical conversation and say, "Okay, is this very thing that we've always done, is it necessary or not?" If the answer is not necessary, okay, simply and quickly eliminate it. There's no need to start documenting how that task is done. If it's not necessarily, eliminate it.
\n\nIf it's a situation where you already have procedures or processes in place, and they are already existing, and you're trying to come into a software like SweetProcess, even before you start importing those documents, I want you to take a look at those documents and say, "Are these things documenting tasks that are even necessary in the first place?" And if they are not, eliminate them.
\n\nSo now, let's say we are at the point where you've eliminated stuff that is not necessary. The recurring task left you have no choice, but you need to do them. Now let's break those two tasks into two categories. The first category is revenue-generating tasks, basically, tasks that bring in money to the company. And the other one is, you know, they're not necessarily revenue-generating, but they're necessary and more of the operation side of things. You need to do them. They don't bring in revenues, per se, but you need to do them to produce whatever stuff that you've promised the customer.
\n\nSo people might be excited to want to jump in and start documenting the tasks that bring in revenue. But I say don't do that because if you start that and you document those tasks that bring in revenue, you're also going to be tempted to say, "Okay, let me go find employees or new employees or sales whatever to come and start doing those activities that bring in revenue that I just documented." Now you're going to get more people or more customers coming into the chaos that is already in there because there are a lot of bottlenecks.
\n\nSo I say focus on these bottleneck tasks first. Find the biggest bottleneck that takes the most of your time. Start from there first. And then, once you've documented how that task is done, you find the next biggest bottleneck, you document that, and you move to the next one. Before you know, you've eventually documented all the big bottlenecks in your day and the time of your manager and all that stuff. And you guys are now freeing up time to focus on these nice income-generating activities.
\n\nSo the next question is okay; I've figured out a big bottleneck task to focus on. How do I document it? Does it have to be an encyclopedia? The answer is no. I want you to do one thing, install that mindset of continuous improvement in your mind, install that mindset of continuous improvement in the mindset of your managers as well as your ground-level employees. Once you have that mindset in place, it basically gives you the permission to say, "Okay, we're going to start from version 1.0 today, which is going to be rudimentary and not have that much in there." But we're telling ourselves since this is continuous improvement, it's going to keep improving as we go.
\n\nSo the first thing you do is document what I call a minimum viable procedure, which is just a fancy way of saying a procedure that has the title of the procedure and the title of each of the steps. That's the first thing. And the best time to even do such a thing is while you're doing the task itself because at that point, it's highest and best in your memory so it's easy to just, you know, whether you're using a tool like SweetProcess or using whatever tool, that's the best time to actually document that minimum viable procedure. So title of the procedure, title of each of the steps. And that's it.
\n\nWhat do you do next? How do you get more details filled in? First of all, I don't want you to think it's only you that will be responsible for filling in the details. It needs to be a collaborative thing. So get your employees involved, anybody who you've trained verbally on the task before on how to do it. It could be a manager or some ground-level employee who you've trained verbally on how to do the task. Say, "Okay, I just documented this procedure. Here are the steps for the procedure. You've already done the task before. Come and collaborate with me to fill out the details."
\n\nSo now the employee goes in there and starts step number one, starts entering the details in there. And also, let them know that the details they're going to each step doesn't have to be 100% perfect. It just needs to be enough instructions in there, be it text, be it screenshots, or whatever, that at least someone else can take these details that they've put in there and at least get started. Again, the goal is not to be 100% perfect with the end results of each procedure. At least if someone can take a procedure and get 60% of the way towards the output, that's a good place to be so because, again, we've installed that mindset of continuous improvement.
\n\nBesides collaborating together to fill out the details of the document, how do you then continuously improve the document? This is the cheat code there for this one now is anytime an employee is carrying out a task, you need to make sure that they are also looking at that procedure that you guys have built together because a lot of the insight that comes around improving a document comes when they are actually doing the work; it's not from when they are documenting how the work is done. But when they are doing the work is where the aha and all these things comes to them.
\n\nSo let's say a document or a procedure has ten steps. Now the employee is doing the work, and the procedure is right in front of them. They are now able to say, "Okay, why do we need ten steps for this? I just found a better way. We probably just only need four steps." Now they can now take that input; hopefully, it's a proactive employee that we all want; they can take that input and pass it back to you. And that document can be improved based on that feedback.
\n\nOr they might come across some new way that was not even encountered for or discussed in the document, and now that feedback can as well be passed to you so that you can improve that document based on the feedback. But you see how all these things I've talked about, if you don't have the right software in place, it might be a little bit tricky. And that's why when we built SweetProcess, we made sure that it has everything in one place where the documentation side of things and how to collaborate together with the team to document is in one place, as well as the actual aspect of getting work done, which is assigning tasks.
\n\nSo, for instance, in SweetProcess, you cannot assign a task to someone that is not based...every task you assign to someone must be based on an underlying procedure you've already documented. So when the employee is actually getting the work done, the instruction is right there in front of them as they are getting the work done in real-time. And if they come across any changes or anything, they can pass that back to you, the manager, who you can make changes on their behalf.
\n\nOr, if they are the proactive employee, they can literally click a button to edit the underlying procedure and make the changes while giving you the management oversight. So all these insights that I've shared about how to do it regardless of whether you use SweetProcess was based on our initial finding when we had all these conversations, and we put it in together and packaged it into our software.
\n\nCHAD: I'm glad that you touch on this idea of continuous improvement, one, because it's one of our core values at thoughtbot is continuous improvement. And I think it's one of the challenges that we have despite it being one of our values. We've been around for 19 years now. We have a very robust internal documentation handbook, procedures, and the way a lot of things are done. And I think it's very easy for someone to show up in that environment and even have all of the best intentions about practicing continuous improvement.
\n\nBut when so much is already laid out for you, it can become easy to fall into the trap of saying, "Well, the answer to everything is here, and I don't need to worry about improving it because clearly..." I don't know; it just builds up this culture of like, we've got things figured out. And it's easy to just fall into the mindset I think of just blindly following the things there and not actually looking at them critically while you do it.
\n\nOWEN: Well, I think that is the wrong way to think about stuff because maybe people are thinking, oh, documenting might make the employees robotic, and maybe they don't have a say in what's going on because maybe the instruction has been passed on to them, and that's it. But the way we want people to think about this and the way we built the software is that it needs to be a collaborative thing where it's not just one person that does it.
\n\nSo that's why in this software and in our software, we allow even the ground-level employee who has been assigned tasks based on the underlying document they are empowered to literally go in there and click the edit button and make the changes to it, knowing that yes, the manager or the owner of the company still has management oversight to approve the changes.
\n\nBut then, even deeper than that, from a cultural standpoint, what other way can you have your voice heard in a company than when you have a tangible role in the actual improvement of how the work is done? Because that's what the procedures are, right? Your document procedures for how work is done. Guess who is doing the work? You. And if you have the ability to, and you are empowered to make changes to the documents that outline how you do your work, that is you literally having your voice heard.
\n\nOn top of that, I think documenting procedures allows you to be more creative. So imagine if you're a manager and there's a specific task you do maybe every three months, and you don't have a document for it. Now, at the time it comes when you need to do this task three months from now, you're going to have to start context switching, remembering okay, how do I do this?
\n\nSpending all this time trying to figure out how to do something and then when you figure it out, now you're going to spend time doing it. But imagine if, on the other hand, you had the instructions right there in front of you. You don't have to spend one single minute remembering anything. The instructions are right there in front of you.
\n\nYou get started on doing the task; what does that allow you to do? First of all, it allows you to get the task done faster, but then it also frees up your mind to start asking yourself the question like, how can I make this be done better? How can I improve this stuff? How can I get rid of some of these steps? That's where the creativity comes in. And you start thinking of new and better ways to get things done.
\n\nBecause remember, documenting procedures is all about, okay, creating steps and instructions for how those tasks that you cannot automate that will be done by human beings are done the right way. But eventually, they get to certain points wherein parts of the task, you can figure out certain things to automate, and you get rid of the manual aspect of human beings doing it. So this is where this whole creativity comes into the whole thing of documenting. That's the way to think about it.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's great. One of the tools, additionally, or techniques that we use a thoughtbot too is there are times where you might have a sense that something isn't quite working right or be improved, or maybe a non-technical person is the one doing the task. And they have a sense that it could be better, but they don't necessarily have the skills to know how to automate it or something like that.
\n\nTo have people come together in what we call a retrospective format where you're identifying things that might be better or could be improved. You're talking about them and coming up with action items for improving them. It's is a nice forum that we have for talking about maybe the more vague feeling that someone has that something could be better and then coming up with a way to improve it as a team. Is that something that you do at SweetProcess?
\n\nOWEN: Well, yeah. So we have a bunch of different tasks that we do. And every now and then, we get to a point where we asked ourselves, is there a way we can automate this so that we don't have to do…? I'll give you an example. Every time...before we automated this when someone signs up for SweetProcess, a lot of our customers come through us creating content that addresses these questions all around documenting and how do you scale the operations of your company and so on and so forth. So a lot of people come through our content.
\n\nAnd as a result of coming through our content, they get into our email automation. We use ActiveCampaign, and they get into our email automation. And before, in the past, before we automated this when someone came in, they get into our email list, and then eventually, they sign up for a trial of our software. And then, we will get this email about it, and we will have to manually go into the tool that we use for our email automation and change their status so that they don't keep getting emails from us as if they were not trial. That became a thing where we were doing too much.
\n\nAnd we said, you know, "Hey, let's get some engineering on this," and basically got API integration built directly with our software so that when someone signs up for trial, it looks to see is this person already in the email list as someone who's not a trial user? Yes. So let's move them in a different...tag them the right tags and put them in a different category so that now they receive a whole bunch of different emails.
\n\nBut the signal for us to decide that we needed to automate that stuff was doing it manually. Although we had step-by-step instructions on how to do it, it was still taking time. And so we said, "Okay, can we automate this?" And so we got to the level where we automated the stuff, and now it's not a thing that we have to even worry about or have someone do. It's just automated.
\n\nCHAD: You have a degree in computer science, right?
\n\nOWEN: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: Do you wonder or…because I sort of have this theory about myself too because I have a degree in computer science as well. But I'm now still doing some development but in operations as well. And sort of this systemized thinking or systems thinking, do you think it comes from our technical backgrounds, your technical background?
\n\nOWEN: I think you can say part of it was enhanced by this, but I've always had this mindset of when I see things like maybe if I go to a company and I see how customer service is happening or how they produce things, I've always been fascinated with how things move around within the different parts of a company to end up with the outcome that I'm trying to achieve.
\n\nLike, people might be having fun watching music videos, but I don't mind sitting down and watching a manufacturing plant like a video showing how they...because I've always been fascinated with how things come together to make the output. And so then you throw in the computer science degree there, and that also enhances that thinking. So I think from my own standpoint, it was just me personally always wanting to know the ingredients that you put together to make something happen. I'm always fascinated by stuff like that. So I'm always thinking systems-wise.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. If folks want to get in touch with you or try out SweetProcess, where are the different places that they can do that?
\n\nOWEN: So obviously, they can go to sweetprocess.com. And you'll be welcome to try out a free 14-day trial of the software. But one of the things I want to leave with you as a gift is I've shared with you how to go about documenting procedures. But you might also want to have templates in front of you so that you're not starting from a blank screen. You have a bunch of…
\n\nWhat I'm offering is about 52 standard operating procedure templates that you can download right after this interview. You can go to sweetprocess.com/giantrobots, and you'll be able to download it. And that's sweet like candy, process like process, forward slash giant robots just like the name of this podcast or sweetprocess.com/giantrobots. And you'll be able to get a PDF that contains 52 standard operating procedures, and from there, you can tweak it and build upon the templates.
\n\nCHAD: That's awesome. I'll make sure that we link that in the notes, which will be right in people's podcast player too.
\n\nOWEN: Thanks for having me on the call. I really appreciate it.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, if folks want to get in touch with you, where are the places where they might do that?
\n\nOWEN: owen@sweetprocess.com, very easy.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. Thank you so much for joining me. You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening, and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Sponsored By:
Matt Danna is the Co-Founder and CEO of Boulevard, which powers next-gen salons and spas. Its mission is to modernize the technology while improving the daily lives of professionals and the clients they serve.
\n\nChad talks with Matt about discovering a problem and then making the jump to working on it, overcoming hurdles in terms of continued growth, and deciding to invest in building their own hardware by creating Boulevard Duo: a point of sale credit card reader.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Matt Danna, the Co-Founder and CEO of Boulevard, which powers next-gen salons and spas. Matt, thank you so much for joining me.
\n\nMATT: Thanks so much for having me, Chad. Great to be here.
\n\nCHAD: One of the things that I was interested in learning about Boulevard is it's a large product that does a lot for salons and spas. And so, I'm interested in talking with you about the process of getting to where you are today. But why don't we get started by giving folks an overview of everything that Boulevard does for salons and spas?
\n\nMATT: Yeah, absolutely. So Boulevard offers what we think is the first and really only business management platform that's really focused around the client experience. We work with businesses that help all of us look and feel our best. And it's a really special industry to be powering where there's a really close sense of that human touch and that human element. We try to use technology to help automate and relieve the day-to-day operations as much as we can for these businesses so that they can focus on providing that world-class client experience and deepening relationships with their clients.
\n\nCHAD: And tactically, that's online booking, scheduling, payments, schedule management, all that kind of stuff that goes into running.
\n\nMATT: Yeah, absolutely. So it goes all the way from, like you said, scheduling to we are a fully integrated payments solution to even have time clock kind of commission reporting. And so it really goes from managing everything front of house all the way through back of house. And happy to share more about how we ended up building such a wide and deep product because it's definitely an interesting story.
\n\nCHAD: So you were not in the salon industry prior to Boulevard, is that right?
\n\nMATT: That's correct.
\n\nCHAD: So, how did you end up getting brought into this industry?
\n\nMATT: So the founding story...so my background is in software engineering, but I ended up turning much more into a designer over time. So I've been naturally drawn to building technology for creative individuals. And so, at my last startup, which was called Fullscreen, it was a startup here in LA. We were helping YouTube creators make better content online, helping them monetize on YouTube, understand their audience.
\n\nAnd this was in the days where YouTubers couldn't monetize directly. They needed to go through a network. And so, we created this proprietary technology offering that really helped them understand how to build their audience and further monetize.
\n\nSo the original founding story was that I met my co-founder of Boulevard at Fullscreen. His name is Sean Stavropoulos. And I was the VP of Product. He was the VP of Engineering. And the kind of inception moment was that there was this week where Sean's hair was a complete disaster.
\n\nCHAD: [chuckles]
\n\nMATT: And as a great colleague, I was making fun of him [laughs] and telling him like, "Dude, you need to go get a haircut." And he said to me that he kept forgetting to call his salon during the day to make an appointment, and at night when he remembered to do those types of things, the salon is obviously closed.
\n\nAnd we were just thinking how much friction there was as a client of these businesses in the booking process and that we didn't understand why you had to do basically so much work in order to be a client. It just was incongruent with what was going on in other industries and kind of restaurants and everything going through this digital transformation.
\n\nOur hypothesis was that they must still be on pen and paper; they haven't adopted technology yet, and that's why you need to call to make an appointment. And we started thinking a lot about this problem and started obsessing over it. [laughs] And there was a weekend that we were hanging out, and we ended up walking into a few different salons and spas in a neighborhood that we were hanging out. And we did a bunch of research and asked them a lot of questions. We said we were UCLA students working on a research project.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nMATT: Which was a pretty smart move because everyone loves talking to students, and we weren't trying to sell them anything. We were trying to learn more. And so, a good research tip is just to state you're always a student. And we ended up learning. And we were super surprised that they were all using technology. All the technology that these businesses were using were also capable of online booking. And so we were like, "Okay, none of this makes sense. Like, you're making your customers call you, but you have these capabilities."
\n\nWe were like, "Do you need help embedding it into your website? Like, why don't you use online booking" And their answer would be, "We absolutely cannot use online booking, no way," which made us even more curious. And so what we ended up learning was that self-care businesses, you know, salons, spas, nail salons, you name it, they're generally running on pretty thin profit margins like in the 5% to 10% neighborhood because their labor costs are so high relative to their sales.
\n\nAnd the other important piece that we learned was that the front desk has outsized control over the revenue that the business makes simply by how they place appointments on the calendar. And so when you call to make an appointment, they're looking up to see if you have a client file, to see if you've been there before, what services did you get? Who were they with? How long exactly did they take?
\n\nThey're also looking to see when they could fit you in. And they're doing double booking, triple booking whenever possible so that staff can be with multiple clients at once and double up. And then they're also making sure there are no gaps between appointments. And so they're doing basically this yield optimization, schedule optimization on the fly. And none of that was taken into account if customers self-booked using any of the solutions available on the market.
\n\nAnd so we thought that seems like a straight-up technology problem to solve that these businesses needed an online booking solution so customers can have that convenience and self-booking whenever they want. But it also needs to take into account some of that business logic that the front desk follows so that they don't get gaps in the day and have a really sub-optimal and inefficient calendar. And so that's where we thought we could provide some particular value that would be unique in the industry. And that was what we focused our MVP on, was that very thing, having an intelligent scheduling solution.
\n\nCHAD: It seems like it's a pretty big leap for the director of product and director of engineering at a startup to discover a problem like this and then actually make the jump to working on it [laughs] and making it real. Was there something in particular that happened? Why did you do that? [laughs]
\n\nMATT: Yeah, I mean, we had a, you know, being executives at the startup and really loving the team, loving what we were doing, our mission. But I think one of the motivators and catalysts was when we were doing this field research. And we ended up going out to a couple of hundred businesses over the course of several weekends to learn even more about this problem area. But one of the things that was so evident and clear was that all of the technology in the market that these customers, these businesses were using, they were negative NPS scores.
\n\nThey were like, "Oh, we use, you know, X, Y, or Z solution, and we really don't like it. It's so hard to use." You would see the red in their eyes when they would talk about this technology." And we're like, "There's something very powerful here." And we weren't exactly sure at the time was it legacy technology not keeping up with modern needs of these businesses and the growing expectations from end consumers, or was it user error problems?
\n\nAnd we had come to the conclusion that it was really a lack of innovation in the market from existing vendors. And that got us particularly excited, and we formed a lot of conviction, so much conviction that we made the leap to start working on this. So we transitioned out of our full-time executive day jobs, and we ended up doing a little bit of consulting work while we were doing a lot of product discovery.
\n\nSo for about six months, we were doing three days a week on Boulevard and a couple of days a week on consulting. So it was a nice little part-time way to keep paying the bills but also then be able to spend a significant amount of our brain space thinking about this opportunity and what problems we wanted to solve.
\n\nCHAD: So maybe I'm just off base here. And I'm not trying to get you to say that something was wrong at Fullscreen. But it strikes me there needed to be something going on, in my mind, maybe I'm off base, for you to even before deciding to make that leap, though, to spend your weekends going to salons and doing interviews.
\n\nMATT: Yeah, I think this is how most companies are started is by founders who are trying to solve a problem that they're exposed to. So everyone is always trying to build companies that are solutions for problems that they have. And we just, I think, got excited by this problem. And my background being in building technology for the creative individuals, like, I got really, really excited. And Sean took some convincing that this was worth it and that this could be a thing.
\n\nCHAD: Was it an aspiration for you to find something that you could use to found your own company?
\n\nMATT: No, no.
\n\nCHAD: And then why were you doing it? [laughs]
\n\nMATT: I think it felt like the right thing to do. I never considered myself an entrepreneur, and I really still don't. I think of myself as a builder, and I love building things. And this was in a way for us to think about, like, oh, let's build a company and turn this into a massive business. We saw that there was a particular pain point that was experienced from both consumers and businesses and that we could provide something special. It felt like it was something that only we saw, which I think made it feel even more compelling to work on.
\n\nAnd so we didn't know if we were crazy at first. We always had this question of like, why hasn't anyone figured this out? This seems so obvious. I still don't know why we're the only ones that have any type of kind of logic on top of the schedule in that sense. But we saw it as a unique opportunity to build something really special and provide a lot of value to consumers and businesses.
\n\nCHAD: Well, that's super interesting. So once you decided and you started working on Boulevard, how did you decide what to focus on first? And how did you set your market for what the first version was going to be or a target for what the first version was going to be?
\n\nMATT: So, we focused on the businesses that had a front desk. So those are generally the ones that really struggled with getting the most out of every minute possible in the day. And so we focused on what were typically mid to upper market single locations to start, and we got introduced to a salon owner through a mutual friend. They were based in New York, and it was just a two-person salon. And so, we built our MVP to be able to support their day-to-day functions.
\n\nAnd they were using some other system, so we kind of had to get to a place where there was general feature parity to support them. So we built up the features that we needed, and then we launched them, transitioned them off their previous solution. And then we did all this in person and then hung out with them for about a week or two after to babysit the system, make sure there weren't problems. We were iterating in real-time. Sean and I were releasing code. And from there, we got an intro to our second customer through another mutual friend.
\n\nCHAD: How long did it take you from when you started to when it was live in that first salon?
\n\nMATT: It took about nine months.
\n\nCHAD: And were you self-funding that based on the consulting that you mentioned?
\n\nMATT: Yeah, self-funding. And then, after we launched with the first business, Sean and I actually both liquidated our 401Ks. And we didn't have the time to continue to consult. So we bootstrapped the company and put our life savings into it once we had traction from our first couple of customers. And that's when we started to hire our first employees to help us continue to accelerate development and that kind of thing.
\n\nCHAD: So again, liquidating your 401k is a pretty big step.
\n\nMATT: Yep.
\n\nCHAD: Did you try to do external fundraising before doing that?
\n\nMATT: No. At that point, not yet. We wanted to really validate the concept on our own dime. And then, when we had paying customers and a decent customer base, we did a friends and family round. And then, once we achieved a certain milestone, we joined an accelerator, which is based in Los Angeles called Luma Launch. And we were part of that accelerator for about six months.
\n\nAnd then we raised our series seed following that. We went from liquidating our savings, living like college students, ramen noodle budget-type to once we felt good about the value we were providing, had the case studies and the customer feedback, and had a pretty awesome MVP to show to investors; that's when we decided to fundraise.
\n\nCHAD: How nervous were the two of you?
\n\nMATT: Very nervous. [laughter] I mean, it's one of those both of us come from really, really humble families, and there was no safety net. And so we were all in. And I think often from when there's a lot of constraints; you have to find creativity. We were all in. We were working all the time on this, really gave it everything we had. And in hindsight, it was a good decision. But it could have easily been a terrible decision. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: I mean, this is one of the things with founding stories is we talk to the people who are successful. [laughs] So, would you recommend this path to other people?
\n\nMATT: I think if it's something where you could see providing unique value to the world and that you have lots of validation from real people, not just your friends but from prospective customers...it was when we were talking to real businesses where they would say, "This is something we would use and pay for." And so, after hearing that dozens and dozens of times, that matched with the negative NPS scores with their current solutions.
\n\nThat's where we were like, "This can be something pretty special." So I wouldn't recommend building in isolation and making that leap of faith without really doing your diligence on the opportunity. But yeah, I think everyone, at some point, if they have an idea or a problem they want to solve, should give it a go.
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\n\nCHAD: That first customer that you were building the replacement for, were you charging them?
\n\nMATT: No, we were not.
\n\nCHAD: Are they paying now?
\n\nMATT: They are, they are, very little.
\n\nCHAD: Okay. [chuckles]
\n\nMATT: They're a small business and have been staying super successful. And so, in the earliest days, the learnings and feedback matter a lot more than revenue, and so you optimize for that as opposed to the economics. And so for us going and working on location at these businesses and they're paying us essentially in the learnings and teachings of helping us understand and absorb ourselves in this industry, and working as front desk and doing the jobs that all these professionals have to do. And so that's where we were able to build and get to a place where our product is really, really authentic. And it was from that first direct observation.
\n\nCHAD: I've worked on products before where they're currently being done by people. They might have technology solutions in place, and they feel like there's no technology that will do this; we need to have a person being the one to do it. Because like you said, there's something special about a person doing it. And so sometimes those businesses, when they have a solution, even if they've properly solved it, there's a lot of resistance from customers who are very skeptical that the technology is going to be able to do it the right way. Have you encountered that?
\n\nMATT: Absolutely.
\n\nCHAD: How do you combat that?
\n\nMATT: We iterated on, essentially, the objections. So the first objection was that "People can't book online because it's going to mess up my day." And so we created this what we call precision scheduling, where it does the optimization on the calendar.
\n\nAnd then the next issue was that we started seeing some no-shows coming because I think there's this mental analog of if you miss an OpenTable reservation not as big of a deal. But in our industry that we're serving, if you miss a two-hour appointment, that professional is out a significant amount of their income for the week. And so that's where we actually started dipping our toes in payments, and we started requiring a credit card at the time of booking just to authorize the card and to hold the appointment. And so that objection of no shows we solved there.
\n\nThere was a lot of concern of like, "Hey, our customers are not going to know the right thing to book." And we have learned that customers actually are very savvy and that the clients deserve more credit than the professionals are giving them that if a woman gets a balayage, she knows it's a balayage. And so, usually, the way that we overcame that objection was we'd work with them and have best practices on menu design. But that they also then, when they're giving a service that they discuss what they actually did in that service so that the customer knows what to book next time if they want the same thing.
\n\nAnd so that was kind of the pattern is like, build something, learn, iterate, and do it on location with these businesses so that we could see it firsthand in an unbiased way. And so that's really how we were able to build such a product with this amount of scale and overcome some of those initial objections.
\n\nCHAD: Is it easier now that you have 2000-plus customers, some social capital out there? They can ask other people, "Is this working for you?" Is that easier now?
\n\nMATT: Absolutely. Absolutely. One of the ways...we didn't have a sales team for a long time in our company, and we were actually under the radar. We were stealth, didn't announce anything about ourselves for the first three or four years. And so we were just very much focused on product development and building something that was incredible. And then we were really fed off of referrals and that word of mouth. So it's I think when you get a product that people love, they're going to tell their friends about it. And for us, that really helped accelerate our growth.
\n\nCHAD: So yeah, so this was all taking place in what year?
\n\nMATT: So we transitioned out of our last company and started doing part-time work in summer of 2015. And then, we officially launched our first customer in spring of 2016.
\n\nCHAD: Cool. And I think that that is, you know, you didn't get to 2,000 customers overnight, right? You've been at this for a while.
\n\nMATT: Yeah, the barrier to entry is very high in the market, and VCs called our type of opportunity a brownfield opportunity where there are a lot of legacy solutions in the market. And we compete with some companies that were actually started before I was born.
\n\nCHAD: [chuckles]
\n\nMATT: And so they've had many decades to build functionality into their platform that we need to get to some level of feature parity with in order to seamlessly transition them off of their previous solution to our platform. And it did take a significant upfront investment with product in order to get to be able to pay the price of admission and to be able to actually compete in the market.
\n\nCHAD: So one of the things I'm curious about is, do you have a sense of what does the overall market looks like? I feel like there are probably lots of salons, spas, haircutting places. There are a lot of them all over the world.
\n\nMATT: There are, yeah. So we believe that there are about 500,000 self-care businesses in the United States.
\n\nCHAD: Just in the United States.
\n\nMATT: Yeah, just in the United States. And the employee base in the labor market is about two to two and a half million professionals across all those businesses.
\n\nCHAD: So, where do you think the hurdles in terms of continued growth are for you?
\n\nMATT: So one of the areas that we focus on is...so all of these self-care businesses are about 90% similar in how they operate. And so we started in the hair salon vertical and then have expanded into many adjacent verticals over the course of the past few years. We really tried to make sure that we had really, really strong product-market fit in the hair salons, which is the biggest self-care market, and before we expanded into, say, nail salons.
\n\nWhen expanding into adjacent verticals, there's some functionality that is unique to those verticals. And so, for example, one of our recent verticals that we expanded into is med spas. And the way that med spas charge for their services is generally based on the products that are used, and so if you buy 100 units of Botox, they charge a per-unit fee. And so that was something that was pretty unique to the medspa market that doesn't exist in other self-care markets.
\n\nAnd so vertical expansion is a vector of growth for us and then segment expansion. So we started with the single location, very small businesses. And then we have worked our way up to enterprise where we're powering chains and franchises of hundreds of locations. And then the other aspects kind of the third vector of growth is the different product sets and functionality that we are releasing to our customers. So continuing to develop the platform but also look at different opportunities where we can provide outsized value by developing it ourselves.
\n\nCHAD: So we could literally talk all day, and I could talk to you about scaling and product and everything. But one thing I'm interested in before we wrap up is I think it's really special to found a company with a designer, a product person, and an engineer. And I can tell even just by looking at the site and the product that you very highly value design and creating a product that people love to use.
\n\nMATT: Absolutely.
\n\nCHAD: How does that lead you to creating Duo, which is a point of sale card reader?
\n\nMATT: One of the things that we saw in the market was this real importance in service design so what information is showing when to the users of our technology. So there's that aspect of what's the overall experience? Then there's the product design; how easy is it to use? And how quickly can new employees, new front desk staff, how quickly can they get ramped up and start using the system? Do they need two weeks of training? And for us, we try to make it as intuitive and as familiar as possible.
\n\nAnd then we look to see how else can we extend design? And one of the complaints that we always received from customers was that hardware options were always pretty ugly, that all of them look dated like the kind of hardware that you use at a supermarket. And they wanted something that was more sleek and that they weren't ashamed to have on their countertop for checkout.
\n\nAnd so that's where we decided to invest in building our own hardware. And that was particularly exciting for us. So it's been really, really well-received from our customers. And it was a really fun project to work on. Getting into the hardware space is always challenging. But as a designer, it was super cool to build something that became physical for the first time in my life.
\n\nCHAD: Does the logic that led to you creating Duo eventually lead you to creating an entire hardware point of sale system?
\n\nMATT: We're assessing all opportunities. There's this interesting moment happening in the payments space where like Apple, you know, announced that I think they're piloting now that you won't need hardware in order to accept credit card payments on the iPhone.
\n\nCHAD: You'll just be able to do it right against an iPad.
\n\nMATT: Exactly. So I think there's a real question as to what is the...and I'm sure this is something that folks like Square are thinking about, that have really best in class hardware is like what does the future of hardware look for fintech companies? And is it just going to fold into the actual devices, or will you continue to need standalone readers? That's something that we're constantly thinking about and keeping smart on the latest developments in that.
\n\nBut our expertise and what we love is building incredible software. Hardware was that area that we saw that we could provide unique value, but our goal is to always be a software company. You generally don't make much money off of the hardware piece in this business.
\n\nCHAD: Now, how personally involved were you in the hardware project?
\n\nMATT: I was very involved, potentially too involved. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: As a founder, when new projects come up like this that maybe you're interested in, how do you either hold yourself back or not hold yourself back from being involved in them?
\n\nMATT: I think when the company is venturing into new territory, entirely new like uncharted waters, that's when it's valuable for me or any founder to get really, really smart on what's the opportunity, what's the risks, all that kind of stuff. In this case, my experience working at our initial customers for the first couple of years of our business was really, really impactful.
\n\nAnd so our Duo captures...and the reason why it's called Duo is because it's a countertop, but also you can take the top off, and you can do an in chair checkout. So you could bring it over to the customer, and they can check out right while they're in the chair as an express checkout. And so those types of things I learned while being on location working at these businesses. And so I was providing a lot of the guidance and conceptualizing how we could think about what the hardware offering would be that would be unique to us, and collaborated with our head of design and then an industrial designer to get the proof of concept there.
\n\nCHAD: And you said, "Potentially too involved," so why did you say that? [laughs]
\n\nMATT: I think as a founder, you are always trying to figure out what altitude are you flying at. And there are some things that you will need to dive in and be very hands-on. And then there are other times just to guide and support and coach. And I think for this because it was a new project, I was particularly excited to be able to get into hardware because that was a first for me that I was involved in all aspects of it. But it was a lot of fun.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. Well, Matt, thank you so much for stopping by and sharing with us. I really appreciate it. I'm sure the listeners do too. If folks want to find out more about Boulevard, about joining the team, about becoming a customer, or just to get in touch with you, where are all the different places that they can do that?
\n\nMATT: Yeah, absolutely. I think the best place is just on our website. We are hiring across all levels and all functions, especially on the product design and engineering side. And so our website is joinblvd.com, J-O-I-N-B-L-V-D.com. There's the about page, and it links out to my LinkedIn. So if anyone wants to connect and get acquainted, that's probably the easiest way to do it.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. Well, thanks again for joining me. I really appreciate it.
\n\nMATT: Yeah, thanks so much. This was a pleasure.
\n\nCHAD: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with links for everything that Matt just mentioned and including a complete transcript of the episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Matt Danna.
Sponsored By:
Monique Idlett is the Founder of Reign Ventures, a seed-stage investment firm, and previously the Co-Founder and CEO of Mosley Brands and Mosley Music Group, home to a multiplatinum roster of artists.
\n\nChad talks with Monique about how the music industry is like the startup venture capital industry, understanding that representation matters, having a data-forward approach, and appearing on the TV show Undercover Billionaire, where entrepreneurs are given 90-days and nothing but 100 dollars to go undercover and build a thriving million-dollar business for a small town in the US.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Monique Idlett, the Founder of Reign Ventures, a seed-stage investment firm, and previously the Co-Founder and CEO of Mosley Brands and Mosley Music Group, home to a multiplatinum roster of artists.
\n\nMonique, thank you so much for joining me. Now, you left Mosley Music Group about three years ago to focus exclusively on Reign Ventures. How is the music industry like the startup venture capital industry?
\n\nMONIQUE: There is no difference in the way I see a pipeline of amazing talented founders. We're truly looking for those exceptional founders that we can help develop, put up that bumper system. The end product in the music industry was the music we were consuming, the experiences through the live art form. And in the startup world, that end product is the success and the ability to scale a real solution that this company has solved with amazing, talented people. So to me, it was a nice, easy transition, and it made sense.
\n\nCHAD: Are there ways in which it's different?
\n\nMONIQUE: Oh my goodness, yes, lots of ways that it's different. The difference is that music is an art form. For me, music is the universal language. I believe that I've traveled the world. And I've been to places where there were language barriers, but when a song, a popular song, came on, the language barrier was gone. In the startup world, there may be several people trying to create and penetrate a problem area in a vertical or a category. And we may not have the ability in the startup world to have several of the same sounding things from a business model. They may not all work.
\n\nAnd so you're dealing with the emotional capacity on the music side. And on the tech side of things you're truly dealing with, can you really solve this problem? We're solving problems, not just emotional connections from the music industry perspective. And also, it's a lot slower moving. We have a project in the music industry, and it may have a cycle. And now it's an even shorter cycle with technology. You may be able to create an entire project in just a couple of weeks.
\n\nIn the startup world, in the business side of things, you may not see the development for two to three years. So the patience is definitely...I've had to apply a lot more patience and understanding of being able to scale a business versus just a project-driven entity. So it's a little different, but the end result is all the same. Creating real great solutions for real problems, whether it's through an art form or whether it's through a business model, is all similar to me.
\n\nCHAD: So, do you have a particular investment strategy or focus at Reign?
\n\nMONIQUE: We do. Erica and I currently we are the largest two female Black-owned VC fund. So one of the things that we felt ten and a half years ago when we started investing together is investing has just been done...venture has been done wrong. There's a reason why less than 3% of funding collectively was...still to this day; it's about 3.2. But over ten years ago, when we started, only less than 3% of funding from VC was going to women, all women, and Black and Brown founders.
\n\nAnd so literally, we were like, the problem is that we're not having enough investment or a lens on women and people of color. And we want to do it the way it should have always been done: investing inclusively. We are proud to say that we invest in all founders, all exceptional founders. And yes, we have a lens on women and people of color because they've been under-capitalized and under-resourced and under-everything. And so the reality is that we want to set the tone of how it should always look and the world is inclusive. Diversity is not an issue; the equity and inclusion side is an issue. And we want to keep being that example.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. Do you feel like, or in your experience, have you found that these founders were already out there and they just were being passed over? Or were the problems so systemic that they weren't even getting the opportunity to even be out there?
\n\nMONIQUE: I think there are always exceptional people out there; that's number one. And I think it's a two-prong problem: yes, the pipeline, the access. So there's the lack of access for these types of founders that has absolutely been an issue, the lack of resources, the lack of access. But the other side of it is that they have just been overlooked and not allowed into the rooms. There are exceptional people in this world that don't only look like one type of person. And the reality is that we have access to them. And so yes, both of those are an issue, okay.
\n\nBut the reality is that we have exceptional founders of all types of people. There are amazing people in this world. When you sit behind a computer, and you run an algorithm, and you only go to only your network of what looks like you and comfortable, then you are what we call missing out on a ton of opportunity. So Erica and I are founder-friendly. We go where the founders are.
\n\nCHAD: I've come to learn and understand representation really matters. Being able to see yourself is really important. And it's something that because I look like what I look like, I had the privilege to not realize how important that is because there are so many people in power that look like me. I can imagine it's super refreshing to a lot of the founders that you work with to be talking with you and sitting across the table from you and seeing that and talking to someone that understands them.
\n\nMONIQUE: Yes. I think that having someone to relate to on all levels, personal, professional is a very important concept. And I remember starting my career at USA Today; not only was I different in age because most of my colleagues were 40-plus, and I was in my young 20s, they were mostly male and definitely particularly only Caucasian. I was the first African American executive on the marketing and sales side. And I remember feeling very isolated and very lost and not knowing who I could turn to that would understand some of the things I was actually going through.
\n\nAnd so yes, founders, it eases the founder's mind when they can talk to me and know that hey, I didn't always look like this from this perspective. I grew up in income-based housing in New Jersey. I understand where you come from. Yes, I understand what it's like to be a Black woman; I am one.
\n\nBut also the other side of it is that when we have founders who are Caucasian male. We like to have conversations of inclusion from the ground up with them. "Did you think about this consumer base? Do you know that you might have to message different?" These are things and conversations that people are not having if you're only talking to one type of person. And so, I think that what Reign Ventures is doing is allowing for comfortable conversation and then execution.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. You started with a $25 million fund in Reign, and you're well beyond that now, right?
\n\nMONIQUE: Yes, yes. So our current fund is a $50 million fund, and then our next fund will be...we're going for the stars and trying to raise $100 million.
\n\nCHAD: Wow. I've talked to a few people who are either interested in starting VC or who have done it before. And what do you use to judge how much or how large of a fund you'll be building?
\n\nMONIQUE: So we like to think of what we want the outcome to be. And so, the long-term goal of Reign Ventures is to have a billion-dollar under asset management. That has not been done by two Black females before. And so we understand if we do that, if we look at the long-term goal, if we do that and count backwards, here's what it will take to get to that billion dollars under asset management. So yes, the size of the fund will have to increase.
\n\nBut we also know that that means we're creating amazing companies and supporting amazing founders with Reign Ventures. And so we look at the size as our ability to have a larger stake and the ability to have follow-on capital for all of the companies that are doing amazing. I would tell anyone who is looking to start a venture fund that Erica and I (Erica is my business partner.) she and I started and wrote our thesis over ten years ago.
\n\nAnd we actually deployed our personal capital for the first nine years so that we could create a data room and so that we could understand what it meant and felt like to have skin in the game so that we can learn truly where we sat well with a thesis. And it ended up being we do really well with consumer tech and SaaS, you know, B2B SaaS software.
\n\nAnd so, I would say that it's not an easy journey to start a venture fund. Truly understand what you want your thesis to be. Truly understand that you're going to hear the word No way more than you will hear the word Yes. This is someone else's investment. This is accountability. And try it and understand it before you just start raising money.
\n\nCHAD: You sort of alluded to this earlier; you said increasing the size of the fund is going to allow you to make bigger investments and follow-on investments. So do you also see you investing in more companies?
\n\nMONIQUE: So we like to have a 20 to 25 cap strategy per fund. And what we do is we take 25% of the capital for the earliest investment, and then we save 75% of it for the follow-on round so that we maintain our equity stake. Because we're founder-friendly, so we always want to be in that board room. We always want to roll up our sleeves with the founders and so maintaining whichever early equity we have, which is usually the way the fund is structured, between around 10%. It allows us to not just do more companies; it actually allows us to really double down on the portfolio itself and make sure that we're staying and growing with the founders.
\n\nCHAD: How involved are you? Are you personally involved? Do you split the portfolio up, and each person takes a few? Or how do you typically do it?
\n\nMONIQUE: We truly, truly do take my 25-plus years in the music industry. We take that very bumper system approach of we're here to help develop the raw talent and, on the tech side of things, the actual founding team and the evolution of the company. And so I usually take the board seats.
\n\nErica, she comes from finance, and she's been doing finance banking for over 25 years. She's been doing early-stage investing for 16 of those years. And so, she helps with the finance cap strategies. How do we get you from your seed stage to your A in 12 months? How do we get you from your A to your B? So she's very, very involved with the financial models and running several of those and working with the founders on who's on your cap table? Okay, so intentionally and strategically, who's missing from your cap table? Let's work on that.
\n\nAnd then I'm always the one working on taking the board seat. I'm the one working with the vision, the strategy. I'm an operator, so I have a most extensive network. And so I'm the one aligning them with our resources, our network. And you know, yeah, we're very, very involved.
\n\nAnd I think that when you're dealing with seed-stage because that's the stage we're in, it's the riskiest. We try to de-risk the company, the founder, the founding team as much as possible. So we are as involved as the founder wants us to be. We do not make founders feel guilty for not having the largest team. We're like, "Okay, what do you need? Let's get you that." And that's where we like to play. We don't see ourselves going into anything past the seed stage.
\n\nCHAD: Is there a limit to how many companies that you're able to personally work with? And how do you scale, Monique?
\n\nMONIQUE: So the cool thing about our fund is that all of the companies are intentional. Half of our companies are consumer tech. So they mostly need pretty much the same type of things, even if they're in different verticals. The other half is SaaS. And so the reality is that they're in different stages. They're growing at different stages. And we, first and foremost, create a founder community that supports each other. That's number one.
\n\nThen we have an LP community that supports not just Erica and I but our founder community. So we look at investing as from a holistic community. We drive community, and that is the way that we're able to actually still have a sustainable business model with Erica and I. And we have a team. We don't do anything by ourselves. We have an entire team dedicated to the growth of our portfolio companies.
\n\nCHAD: Speaking of that team, what does that team look like now in terms of the different roles on it? And how big is it?
\n\nMONIQUE: So currently, right now, we have about four full-time. And then, we have a couple of interns who work on the data science side. And then we also have in-house from just Monique from my particular business model side; we have an HR. We have financial operators, and then we have contractors and partners. And so, at the end of the day, there isn't anything that our founders need that we can't source for them internally or externally.
\n\nCHAD: Who was the first person you brought onto the Reign team, and why?
\n\nMONIQUE: Her name is Naya, and she actually has worked for me on my foundation side for a few years. She's was an engineering student at University of Miami. And once she graduated, she was now getting her Master's in Data Science. And we felt like being able to report properly on our founders, the companies that were applying that we actually could not invest in but were investable, we'd like to keep track of that. And so, we felt like having someone who could really handle the data side of Reign Ventures was one of the more important hires.
\n\nAnd then, we also hired a full-time social media person who handles the content. We have a monthly podcast called The Series A. They oversee that so all communications on our portfolio companies and Reign Ventures as a whole. So those were the first two hires. And we're currently prepping to hire for the summer a full-time associate that will be out of the New York office. We have offices here in Miami, across from the University of Miami, and then we have offices in New York.
\n\nCHAD: That's cool. The data aspect of that is super interesting to me because I think that I talk to a lot of people, and a modern VC firm is certainly doing that. But there are still ones out there that don't have that data-forward approach that it sounds like you do.
\n\nMONIQUE: Well, we need to make sense of all of this. So we need to make sense of the idea of how many founders are applying? What is the demographic makeup of them? Who is this founder? Where are they coming from? What markets are they coming from? Because we do invest just only in the United States. And we pretty much invest in all markets here. We'd like to keep that data.
\n\nAnd most importantly, we are over-communicators with our LPs. So we're sending them monthly updates. Carta is updated every, you know, they have access to that. So we'd like for them to understand what our day is looking like. How are we spending our time? What type of founders are coming to us? Hey, you all don't necessarily have access to these founders, here's why we do. And so all of this information is important. You have to make sense of who your audience is. And for us, our audience are the founders.
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\n\nCHAD: You mentioned that you invest in people in some ways as much or more than you do the idea that they have and really work with them. How far along will people typically be with their product when you start working with them and investing in them?
\n\nMONIQUE: The way that the investment cycle is, you know, your family and friends, then your angels, and then sometimes even your super angels will come in after that. Then you have your pre-seed, which is usually where you're testing product-market fit, et cetera. And then we step in at the seed stage, which is founder market fit, you know, product-market fit, a billion-dollar addressable market.
\n\nYou understand your operational strategy, where you're going to raise less than 50 million, and if you're not, you have that strategy of why? And definitely more than just an idea at that point. Now you just need to raise this round, to hire on more team, and then scale. So for us, that's how our due diligence works.
\n\nAnd if you make it through that due diligence, then it becomes about who is this founding team? Will they be able to deal with adversity? Because you're going to have it. Are they coachable? What is their leadership style? Is it an inclusive environment? You can't be creating an equity company, and then all the team looks the same. So these are the things that we're looking at.
\n\nWhat is your personality type? We like to spend time with our founders. How will you deal with the stress because the stress will come. Is your mindset the glass is half full or is it half empty? All of these things are important at the seed stage because it's not the growth stage where it's automatic it's happening. The seed stage boils down to can you deal with adversity?
\n\nCHAD: I imagine you reject a lot of people.
\n\nMONIQUE: Ooh, I would say that we use a different term. We are not dream killers.
\n\nCHAD: Okay. [chuckles]
\n\nMONIQUE: Here's what we say: we have an open-door policy with founders. We allow founders, even the ones that are not ready for investment or that we've actually had to pass on investment. And the thing is that we can only do 20 companies. That is where we'd like to sit, 20 companies per fund. And if for some reason, it's not a company that we invest in, we still give them access to our resources. We still give them access to our network. We still will spend…I mean, every Friday is our Founder Friday, and it fills up very quickly.
\n\nErica and I get on with founders who are not in our portfolio because just because they weren't a good fit for Reign Ventures or it was something that we could not do, maybe it did not fit the fund's structure; we also try to align them with investors that might fit them more properly. And so I don't feel like we reject; we just redirect.
\n\nCHAD: So given that then, I imagine that you are often pretty open with the companies that you're not able to invest in the reasons why and hopefully, it helps them.
\n\nMONIQUE: Oh, absolutely. We get founders all the time that say, "Listen, this was the best thing. Prior to coming to you all, we weren't able to raise $1. You didn't invest in us, but you taught us how to be investable, and now we've raised money." That's what we want to hear. None of us win if there's really a great company with a great solution that can really have some traction if they never get up and running.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. And maybe you get the opportunity to invest in them later, right?
\n\nMONIQUE: Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. There are a couple of companies that that has happened. And one of them is now back in our due diligence and probably will make it through.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. Are there any companies in your portfolio that you particularly want to give a shout-out to?
\n\nMONIQUE: Oh, we love all of our portfolio companies.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nMONIQUE: You know, Sharebite, Dormify, SoLo Funds. SoLo Funds is one of my favorite companies from the perspective of dealing and disrupting predatory lending. As a person who grew up in a neighborhood that liquor stores and cash checking were like every other block, if not on the same block, we truly do know the long-term effect it has on those communities, right? The underserved communities get so taken advantage of. If you don't have $200 and then you go to a predatory lender, and you're paying them $2,000, how do you ever advance? And so SoLo Funds really, really the only Black-owned B Corp in the United States.
\n\nCHAD: That's awesome.
\n\nMONIQUE: This narrative is so important, Chad.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. And, you know, not only is it important from a social perspective, but that is a huge business. It's a huge market opportunity for the right company with the right values to come in and be able to have a significant business, too, right?
\n\nMONIQUE: Listen, they're making the whole ecosystem better. For the lenders, listen; they feel good. They're having a positive social impact. And oh, by the way, I'm getting a return. For the borrowers, they are getting financial literacy. They are getting higher social credit scores, which is then impacting their personal credit score. I mean, listen, by the way, when this company was created, over 76% of Americans, if they were hit with a $200 bill, they were not going to be able to pay it. So this is not just about one type of community. This is about the American concept.
\n\nCHAD: So when you work with a company like that, were they a B Corp when you started working with them?
\n\nMONIQUE: No. True story, I was literally personally the second investor in and then the third before there was ever even...So Rodney Williams is the Co-Founder of SoLo Funds. And I'm on his board for LISNR. We were one of the first investors in LISNR, which is the data over audio company. And he shared this idea with me, and I loved it because we all come from a neighborhood where we know and we were the ones who quote, unquote, "were doing better" in our families. So we were always getting the daily calls like, "Oh, my car broke down. Oh, this." And when he said this to me, I'm like, "Oh my goodness, this makes so much sense. I'm in."
\n\nAnd see, this is where investing in people comes to play. Rodney had proved his ability as a founder with LISNR. So the trust was there, the relationship was there. Travis comes from banking, super, super intellectual, really quality guy, and not only is he the co-founder, but he's the CEO. And he's doing an amazing job. So no, it was not a B Corp; it is now one. And they will be the largest neobank for this community. And so growing and seeing the cycle of it is what, for me, personally, is what makes me happy. All of our companies in our fund have a social impact perspective.
\n\nCHAD: Had you been involved in a B Corp before? It's something that I'm really interested in, but I have not been directly involved in one before. And I'm actually really interested in it for thoughtbot too.
\n\nMONIQUE: No, I had not. No.
\n\nCHAD: Is it difficult? [laughs]
\n\nMONIQUE: So was it difficult for them? Absolutely. But they made it through. They made it through. And I think that we now have two men who are great human beings who happen to be Black men, but they are just great human beings who went through the process and can now help educate and share that experience with other people that look like them and are trying to do the same thing as them, create great companies with a great social impact to just have a better world.
\n\nCHAD: From an investor perspective, when your portfolio companies want to embark on something like becoming a B Corp, which, you know, some investors might look at and say, "That might be a distraction from what you need to do now," how do you look at those things?
\n\nMONIQUE: I mean, listen, if you want to become a B Corp, you actually are trying to have more of an impact, and I wish more companies were. When we actually are only focusing on the dollar side, the stakeholders of the dollar side, how are we truly making sure that we're impacting the world in a positive way? There's a lot of conflict usually.
\n\nSo we encourage that type of behavior; we encourage founders to think beyond their dollar sign and their stakeholders' dollar sign. The good thing is that they had an amazing team supporting them. They had an amazing A series lead investor, ACME, that really drove it with them. And so they did this. We didn't do this. They did it. This was their mission, and they did it.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. And it's definitely something that's on my list to dig into more, like I said, for thoughtbot as well. So was it 2021 that you were on Undercover Billionaire? Was it last year?
\n\nMONIQUE: Oh my goodness.
\n\nCHAD: Or was it the end of 2020?
\n\nMONIQUE: So it was the end of 2020, yes. [laughs] Tacoma, Washington.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. So for folks who don't know, Undercover Billionaire is a TV show where you give up all of your resources, and you're planted in a city, and you start a business from scratch. And you have what? Ninety days to bring it to a million-dollar business?
\n\nMONIQUE: Yes. So technically, the premise of the show is you literally get a new identity. And you do not know where you're being dropped literally until you're dropped there. And so, I had no idea I would be dropped into Tacoma, Washington. And one, they give you $100, literally, a phone with no contacts in it, and a used vehicle, and you have 90 days to turn that into a million-dollar valuation.
\n\nCHAD: It must have been a wild experience.
\n\nMONIQUE: I have to tell you, the emotional connection that has to happen and then also by the way you're lying to everyone, it was a very intense thing. And most of the time, 99% of time, you're running on adrenaline. And to be completely honest, when I first got there, you're focused on the goal. The goal is can you make this valuation? The goal is I can't be the example that didn't make it right. Then when you get there, it becomes less and less about the goal.
\n\nYou actually get to a point where you don't even care if you make the goal. You care about the community that you've been dropped into. And you just want to see them win, and you want to see them become better. And Tacoma, Washington, everything from the mayor, down to now to one T'wina Nobles, who is now the Senator, the youngest senator in the state of Washington, these amazing people were a part of my journey.
\n\nSo it became all about, wow, at the end of that experience, that last show, and I look at the room of all those people, it was the most inclusive experience naturally. That's what the win was for me personally. And I also got to learn about myself. But I will tell you that it was one of the hardest things I've ever done in life outside of having children and raising them to be healthy adults.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nCHAD: Not only to build the business, you mean, but that experience of --
\n\nMONIQUE: Just the entire experience.
\n\nCHAD: I watched the episode where you told everybody who you really were.
\n\nMONIQUE: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: And I could see that it had really affected you.
\n\nMONIQUE: I was lying to people every single day. And these people were so amazing. They donated their time, their resources, their ability to me because that company could not happen without them and without the community. And so, what we all walked away with was a shared experience of how powerful community actually is. And that even when you don't know how to figure something out, if you use your voice, someone will actually help you and you end up all helping each other. For me, that's what was so beautiful about the experience.
\n\nCHAD: I imagine it's pretty intense. How quickly did you force yourself to settle on the business you were actually going to build?
\n\nMONIQUE: It's so interesting because I have been asked like, "Did you create the concept before you went?" And I said, "Actually, no," literally, I went into it with a blank mind of wherever I end up, I want to see what they need, and we'll create a business model around that.
\n\nSo I think it was like day four of being in Tacoma. And I was in an area that was a food desert for the most part. And I'm like, listen, I'm talking to people, and they're like, "Oh yeah, we have to order juice shots. They have to get shipped. Or we get the ones that are, you know, sitting in the grocery store, and that's not a lot of options."
\n\nAnd I'm like, wow, this is a problem. And I'm like, let's reimagine the ice cream truck. Everyone would like to think that the wealth gap...that if you make money, you care about your health, if you don't make money, you don't care about your health, actually, no. [laughs] I grew up in a natural home, and we lived in income-based housing growing up. And so the reality is that everyone wants to be healthy.
\n\nPeople need more access to healthier options at an affordable rate, and people will buy it. So the question was, oh, Monique, you can't sell juice shots for $5. Yes, we can. You think a community just because they're underserved won't pay for their health? They absolutely will if you give them the option to. We always sold out in the communities that they said would never sell.
\n\nCHAD: So up against a ticking clock, what did you do to sort of validate the idea and really run with it, or did you just know?
\n\nMONIQUE: No, you don't just know, right?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. [chuckles]
\n\nMONIQUE: You're literally working on adrenaline. Listen, there was nothing normal. We all know this as business owners; there's nothing normal about this concept. You can't create a successful business in 90 days. So you're literally in overdrive: no sleep, multitasking, doing all types of things. Here was the thing; first of all, I talked to the community. I asked them what did they need? What were they missing? If they had access to something, would they utilize it? That was number one.
\n\nNumber two was testing it. So I started making samples. And I went out to the community again and started testing it. Three was of the test that did good; let's run with that and package that up. And you have to understand, Chad, it was the height of the pandemic. Everything was shut down. You know, I live in Florida, so we weren't like that. But going to Tacoma, Washington, nothing was open. So I had to think, how do I get to people because they're not coming and cannot come to a brick and mortar?
\n\nSo the only thing that was pretty much open was the farmers' market. So that's what I did. I'm like, let's get to the farmers market. And also, let's see how we become mobile, oh, the ice cream truck treats. Let's teach people that healthy treats are actually what they crave.
\n\nCHAD: I think even though it was accelerated, intense, the things you're talking about doing in terms of validating the idea, actually talking to customers, testing things out, those are things I think people want to do in any situation.
\n\nMONIQUE: It is absolutely true. We talk to founders all the time, and it's the I, I, I. And we tell them, "Well, have you talked to your customer?" Sometimes we're so close to our ideas because we hold them, and we're trying to solve a problem maybe that we experience. That's step one. But step two is, is it something that other people want and need? So you definitely have to go out there and do market research.
\n\nCHAD: Are there other things that you counsel founders on doing? Particularly with the seed stage, you know, on the verge of significant growth and scaling, what are some things that are maybe common plays or common pitfalls of companies at that stage?
\n\nMONIQUE: So some of the things that we see, especially with solo founders, is them having this idea that only they can do everything and not understanding that you actually have to have a founding team. And that does require you to give some equity. We see founders wanting to hold on to everything. And then it becomes do you want 100% of something that's very restricted, or do you want to share it and make it something really special and a part of a billion-dollar concept? So that's one.
\n\nTwo would be founders in need happen to take money without understanding that it is a debt that even if it's fundraising and you're raising institutional capital, these are your investors. These are your partners. And is it a good partnership? We have seen a lot of founders in contractual and legal documents because they went and took money from the wrong type of investor. We see that --
\n\nCHAD: And they did that because they were desperate at the time?
\n\nMONIQUE: They were desperate. They were desperate. They were desperate and for just really crazy, contractual things. They don't have attorneys look at the paperwork. We see a lot of these mistakes. And so we tell founders you have to have a step back from your business. You have to look at all types of options. Have you applied for grants and particular grants in areas of the problem that you're solving? Have you tried for Small Business Association grants? Have you tried to get a credit line versus an investor who's now going to have equity? These are all the things.
\n\nAnd if you do need investors, don't take all the same types of investors. If every investor in your cap table is a bean counter and the numbers aren't playing out well for them, what type of board meeting is that going to be? So make sure you have an operator who's on your board. Make sure you have a financial person, investor on your board. You have to be very strategic and intentional. And if you're in a desperate moment, I can guarantee that is not when you want to take the money that you actually need to do a deeper dive and step back from the company to really see what the company needs.
\n\nCHAD: Monique, I feel like that's great advice. The level of experience and passion that you have for the work is obvious in listening to you. It makes me want to work with you. [laughs]
\n\nMONIQUE: Oh, thank you, Chad. Yes, I'm very impressed with what you have built. And I'm very impressed with you understanding the ability to give access to information to your audience. Here's the thing, we are products of an environment of capitalism. And there's nothing wrong with capitalism, but it just needs to be a lot more conscious. And it needs to have a much better impact for all. The problem with from our childhood age of education is we've been taught that there's only one, there can only be one winner. There's only one first place.
\n\nWe have to take that mindset back and really step into the power and the power that we truly have, which is abundance. There's enough for us all. We just have to give that power back to it. And the reality is that we all need each other, and we all need to build together. And people just need access to information.
\n\nMost founders tell us, "I was embarrassed to ask that. I was made to feel like I was supposed to know this, so I just went ahead and pretended like I knew it." It's okay that we don't know everything. In fact, I like to sit in that space of student and say, "You know what? I like to be in the room that I actually don't know anything because then that means I'm learning, and it's okay. We better keep learning."
\n\nOne of my favorite quotes is, "We delight in the beauty of the butterfly but rarely admit the changes it has gone through to achieve that beauty." And Maya Angelou wrote that, and she understood the human spirit needs to understand that no matter what career path we're on, Founder, CEO, employee, employer, no matter what that is, it is a constant evolution of self. And sometimes we'll feel like a butterfly, and sometimes we will have to be in that learning and growth and uncomfortable stage. But the beauty of uncomfort means you're growing, and we have to make more people feel comfortable with that.
\n\nCHAD: That's beautiful. Monique, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing with all of us.
\n\nMONIQUE: No, thank you, Chad, for having me.
\n\nCHAD: If folks want to get in touch with you or find out more about Reign, where are all the different places that they can do that?
\n\nMONIQUE: So if they want to contact me, they can email me at monique@reignvc.com, which is R-E-I-G-N-V-C.com. We're on LinkedIn; we're on Twitter; we're on Instagram. And if they want to learn more about Reign VC, they could just go to reignvc.com. And if they have any questions, they can submit it, and we'll get back to them.
\n\nCHAD: Wonderful. And you can subscribe to the show and find notes and a full transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm, and you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening, and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Monique Idlett.
Sponsored By:
Joseph Mocanu is Co-founder and Managing Director of Verge HealthTech Fund, which invests globally in seed-stage healthcare technology startups relevant to emerging Asia that focus on disease prevention and management, digital therapies, and health system efficiency.
\n\nChad talks with Joseph about the healthcare landscape in different places of the world, funding criteria for companies, and how the pandemic has changed prospects for the fund and the market in general.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel, and with me today is Joseph Mocanu, Co-founder and Managing Director of Verge HealthTech Fund, which invests globally in seed-stage healthcare technology startups relevant to emerging Asia that focus on disease prevention and management, digital therapies, and health system efficiency. Joseph, thank you for joining me.
\n\nJOSEPH: Thanks so much, Chad, for having me.
\n\nCHAD: So you have been focused on emerging Asia healthtech for a little while both at Verge HealthTech Fund, and prior to that, how did you get involved in this space?
\n\nJOSEPH: I wish I had a really cool, deliberate story that made it sound like it was a smooth transition from point A to point B. But I simply have to owe it to an opportunity to transfer to the region through my old employer which is Oliver Wyman, a global management consultancy. So I joined this consultancy in 2011 after doing my Ph.D. and MBA really to understand how to be a better investor, which, again, sounds a little bit backwards.
\n\nBut I had worked at a hedge fund in China just after my MBA, and I learned that they use management consulting techniques to add value to their portfolio companies. And I thought that's a great skill to learn. And it'd be great to even learn it in English and doing it in healthcare 100% of the time.
\n\nSo I had joined Oliver Wyman in 2011 in Toronto office back home, where I spent a lot of my life. And they asked me one day if I wanted to transfer to the Singapore office to help start healthcare over there. And when I went to Singapore, of course, it's this futuristic city, really well planned. It's got a lot of fine names and a reputation globally of being a modern cosmopolitan place to do business. Some people refer to it as Asia-lite. But the surrounding areas have a lot of issues when it comes to their health systems. I knew this from an academic perspective, having studied about the region before moving to Singapore but seeing it firsthand was a completely different experience.
\n\nAt the time, I was working for primarily pharmaceutical clients, helping them with market access and other commercially relevant activities. And they were faced with a fundamental challenge of trying to sell their product, which was usually placed in the premium category to markets that had difficulty affording this. And not only did it have difficulty affording this, it had difficulty in delivering it as well as in using the product appropriately, making sure it gets to the patients when it's needed at the right time, at the right dose. And so they were looking for partners. They were looking for partners on the ground that could assist with this delivery education, the technology, and the financing around it as well.
\n\nNow, there was a real shortage of said partners on the ground. At the same time, there were also insurance companies that wanted to expand their business. They also realized that the policies tended to be a bit simple, and they tended to resemble one another across competitors. And also, to manage increasing claims, they had a tendency to increase the premium that they charged. This was not possible to do indefinitely. And at some point, they needed to actually manage the medical conditions, which you're probably seeing more and more of in the U.S. and in Western markets, less so of in this part of the world.
\n\nAnd then lastly, you had conglomerates and investors who said, "Hey, we hear healthcare is going to be a pretty hot field. How do we get started? How do we invest?" And all of this basically set me on a mission of target hunting. And during the course of this, well, I met a lot of interesting companies, a lot of them really, really early in their journey and really too small for any of my clients to find a meaningful way to engage with them. And unfortunately, they couldn't get to the point where they are relevant and large enough to engage with without a lot of capital.
\n\nThis is where, you know, you'd have a nice investment ecosystem coming in to fill in the gaps. This, unfortunately, did not really exist at the time. And I had the hubris of thinking that I could do something about it by being an angel investor and starting to support these founders directly, which, thankfully, seemed to work to a certain degree. It worked to the point where one day, I woke up, and I realized I had 13 angel investments, 9 of which were in healthcare technology, and not a lot of money left in my bank account to do other things with.
\n\nCHAD: Uh-oh. [laughs]
\n\nJOSEPH: Yeah. And at the same time, I also realized that the work that those founders are doing is a whole lot more impactful than me sitting up until 3:00 o'clock in the morning every night writing PowerPoint slides or begging analysts to write the PowerPoint slides that would more or less sit and collect dust on my clients' shelves for various reasons. So I came to the realization that I need to do this full time.
\n\nI didn't have, you know, $10 million in my pocket as reference to spending all my money on angel investments. So I realized that I have to use other people's money, and the way to do that is to join a fund. Now, the problem with that idea is that there weren't any funds that were doing this, like really, really early investing in healthtech companies in the region that was really geared to helping solve some of these really big access challenges. So then I realized I had to start a VC fund that did this and only this. So that's really kind of a long-winded introduction as to how I got started with this.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I want to come back to the process of actually starting a VC fund in a bit. But I'm curious, were the companies that you were doing angel investment in and now doing seed-stage investment in do they tend to be local companies, or do they tend to be international companies that are planning to solve a problem locally?
\n\nJOSEPH: It's funny you ask that. At the beginning, they were local. Well, actually, if I really were to take a step back, the very first angel investment I made was for a mentee, and she was based in Toronto. But I'd say that the first true angel investment I made, you know, it was in Singapore, first and foremost, because I was there. And then I started branching out. I started making investments in the Philippines. I started looking at companies in Taiwan and other parts.
\n\nAnd actually, that opened my eyes to the fact that there may be other companies around the world that are trying to solve a problem that may not necessarily be in my own backyard. So I started to, you know, cheekily, I sent my wife to tech conferences around the world. And she herself is an entrepreneur from the tech industry; hardware was her specialty. And we started identifying companies from all over the world. And the second angel investment where I was the very first investor was actually from a company in South Africa with similar challenges.
\n\nSo the things that we saw as major health system deficiencies or maybe shortages in infrastructure and human capital were very much true not just in Southeast Asia but in a lot of parts of the world. And we noticed that while there were different reasons for why they ended up in that position, the outcome was similar.
\n\nCHAD: I'm not sure that everyone listening has a good sense of what the healthcare landscape actually looks like in these different places of the world. So let's take insurance, for example; what is the insurance landscape, generally speaking, in Southeast Asian countries?
\n\nJOSEPH: So, in Southeast Asia, we do have insurers. I mean, private insurance is certainly there. But it's just not --
\n\nCHAD: Do most companies have public insurance, too, like universal healthcare?
\n\nJOSEPH: That depends on which country you're in. Now, the one interesting thing about our entire region is that they've all committed to universal healthcare coverage. I would say that the implementation thereof has been heterogeneous; let's put it that way. Out of Southeast Asian countries that are not Singapore, I'd say that Thailand probably has the strongest public healthcare system. And in fact, they even do health technology assessments, which is really looking at the true cost-effectiveness of a new intervention versus what's currently done in practice to make decisions as to whether they're going to pay for it. And they cover a pretty high percentage of their population with this.
\n\nAnd then there are other places where the financing mechanisms are in place, but you don't necessarily have the doctors or the hospitals where they need to be to address the needs of the population. Still, we are dealing with places that are not fully urbanized. And in fact, a good deal of the population is still working on the pharm, basically.
\n\nOne of the other complexities of our region is that just between the Philippines and Indonesia, which together has a combined population of 380 million at least, maybe it's 390 now, you've got 25,000 islands, and not all of those islands tend to hold major tier-one cities, even though they can hold a lot of people. And if there is one thing about healthcare that seems to be a universal truth is that highly skilled workers like to live in the rich cities.
\n\nCHAD: And so what I'm hearing is that on an individual island, if there's not a major city there, the access to the actual healthcare might be really limited.
\n\nJOSEPH: That is exactly it.
\n\nCHAD: In these economies in these countries, it's typical to have private insurance layered on top. But the pharmas probably aren't doing that, right?
\n\nJOSEPH: Oh, no, no, unfortunately not. There are some pilots of trying to do co-ops or collective insurance or micro-insurance policies. But again, when you look at the amount of premium that they could pay in, the kind of coverage they get is pretty basic.
\n\nCHAD: So, how does that landscape influence the solutions that startups are creating?
\n\nJOSEPH: Well, first and foremost, you've got to try to get some sort of mechanism by which you can seek care without having to travel too much. And I think that concept is extremely familiar to all of us thanks to the global pandemic that I hope we're coming out of right now, although there's always a new strain surprising us.
\n\nThe idea of basic telemedicine is one that can have a great deal of impact in these populations. But even before that, just understanding the importance of healthcare, like, what the concept of healthcare is, what the concept of the modern medical system is, is something that a fair number of people never really had awareness of.
\n\nAnd I'll call out an example country, and I try not to call out too many examples. But Indonesia did a really good job of educating people about the concept of healthcare when they promoted their universal healthcare coverage. Even if they didn't have the ability to deliver it as well as they wanted to or as widespread as they wanted to, at least they got people paying attention to this concept called health. So awareness is really the first step.
\n\nThe second challenge is all right, so you know health exists. When do you know when you need it? Where are you going to find a doctor? How do you know if a doctor is even good? And how do you know that the products that you're going to get are appropriate? So there are so many challenges that you have to face when you are in a lack of access situation.
\n\nCHAD: I assume you're getting pitched on a lot of ideas coming to your fund, a lot of startups. Correct me if that's wrong. [laughs]
\n\nJOSEPH: No, no, that's absolutely true. So one of the blessings and curses of being one of the very few super early-stage healthtech venture funds out there is that there aren't many of us out there. And when we started...let's just put it this way, if I could find a fund that was doing what I wanted to do, I would have sent my CV in, and I couldn't.
\n\nAnd starting a fund was basically the last thing I wanted to do, having never worked at a VC before or ever raised money in my life before. So I still think that we are the only truly global impact-oriented seed - I hate the term pre-seed, but I'll use it because of the audience's familiarity with it- investment fund out there right now for healthtech. So by virtue of that, we do see a lot of companies.
\n\nCHAD: So what are some of the criteria?
\n\nJOSEPH: So I'd say some of the criteria that we look for is number one, are you solving a real problem? And we define a real problem by the breadth of the problem, like, how many people are suffering from it or how systemic is this problem if it's an infrastructural one? And depth being how severe is this problem: is it life or death, or is it a minor inconvenience? So first and foremost, it's got to be solving a real problem.
\n\nSecond, it's really around the team. You need a lot of clinical, technical, and commercial experience in order to pull off a healthtech startup successfully. And even before that, we want to understand why are you doing this? Because this is not easy. I'd say on a scale of 1 to 10, doing a startup is like an eight, and then doing a healthtech startup is like an 11. It's slow; it's technical, it's regulated, it's super risky.
\n\nAnd health systems are very pathway-dependent in the intent to not have many things in common with one another. So it is really, really hard. So we want to know the motivation. Are you going to stick through the thick and thin, or are you doing this healthtech startup because you think healthtech is cool or hot this particular period in the market cycle? So that's another criterion.
\n\nAnother criterion is, well, what's your edge? I mean, okay, you can have a great team, and I think that is definitely a prerequisite. You can solve a problem. But do you have something that could make sure that you are going to be competitive and remain competitive?
\n\nCHAD: Given the barriers to market entry that you just outlined, do most of the companies that you're investing in have any sort of traction already in the market, or where are they in the product development or business development cycle?
\n\nJOSEPH: I'm going to give the ultimate cop-out answer of it depends.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] Yeah.
\n\nJOSEPH: But I will qualify that by saying it depends on whether it's hardware or software, and it depends whether it's regulated or non-regulated. So if you are a software company that's unregulated so, what does this mean? It could be like a marketplace. It could be health education. It could be some telemedicine in a loosely regulated market. We'd really like to see user traction. We'd really like to see revenue even.
\n\nHowever, if you're a device company and you need to get FDA before you can earn a single dollar, we're okay with it being a science experiment or a prototype on the table as long as the science part of it has been de-risked. So if we know that the fundamental scientific principles are sound, then we're willing to take the productization and regulatory risk because we've been through this journey ourselves.
\n\nCHAD: And also, you said a team is really important, so if it's a team that has never gone through that before, that's less attractive than a team that has done it before, I assume.
\n\nJOSEPH: Yeah, absolutely. However, one of the challenges is that outside of the U.S., certain European markets in Israel, it's really difficult to find a team that's gone through the entire medical device development process before. So you are going to rely heavily on your professional service providers, consultants, advisors, other investors who've done this before. And as long as you have at least a path to getting to a point where you can unlock and utilize that expertise, that's okay. But if you don't, then that's a really, really big risk.
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\n\nCHAD: Earlier, you said FDA. FDA is a United States thing. Do most countries in Southeast Asia have a local regulatory agency like the FDA that things need to be approved through?
\n\nJOSEPH: Yep, every single one. The question is, what's the process to go through that? Generally speaking, the FDA, as well as the European equivalent, which is the CE Mark, are used as predicates in order to kind of shortcut the process, make it go a little bit faster. Because then you don't have to create a bunch of new work or get the local regulator to really try to do things that they're unfamiliar with.
\n\nCHAD: You said it's fairly rare for teams to have concrete experience doing that in the local market. Does that mean that most of these markets have been served by, I don't know, large companies previously?
\n\nJOSEPH: Yeah, and still are. A fair number of emerging markets don't even have the manufacturing capability to even do local production, so they require a lot of importation. I'd say that this is a different case when it comes to generic pharmaceuticals and maybe vaccines and some consumables. But complex devices and biologics are generally manufactured in more developed markets or larger economies.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. Well, you mentioned the pandemic, and I'm curious how the pandemic has changed either your prospects for the fund but also the market in general.
\n\nJOSEPH: I would say, again, it's both a blessing and a curse. So during the start of the pandemic, there was a great deal of societal and economic uncertainty around where are we going to be as a species in six months? And I remember early 2020; it was kind of these Hollywood movies that would paint this kind of semi-apocalyptic picture of where we're going to end up. And as a consequence, people really puckered up and stopped investing in things.
\n\nI would say that the other side of it is now much of the world understands what it's like to not have access to quality healthcare or even access to healthcare. You see people not going to the hospital for things that they ought to and then suffering the consequences at home, like, let's say, not going for that heart checkup, and then you having a heart attack at home and passing when you otherwise wouldn't have. Or even cancer patients having to delay their therapy because the hospital is just too full.
\n\nSo this concept of telemedicine which has always been resisted by both the payers and providers for being infeasible, or inaccurate, or impossible to fund properly, suddenly had to be done. And the concept of telemedicine is fairly old. I mean, how else would you treat your astronauts in space in the '60s if they got sick? So this is something that NASA thought of and invented and implemented, you know, decades and decades ago. And finally, this came forward.
\n\nAnd I was pleasantly surprised to see...and again, I'll quote the U.S. here where The Center for Medicare & Medicaid Services or CMS actually reimbursed a bunch of remote procedure codes, which is pretty amazing. And I think that was opening Pandora's Box. There's no going back from that.
\n\nSo I think telemedicine is absolutely here to stay. And the real challenge now is really how to make it more user-friendly, how to improve it, how to improve the decisions that come from it. I really don't think it's going back. And as a consequence of this, it's really benefited a lot of our startups that were trying to build this remote-connected future anyway.
\n\nCHAD: Has there also been an influx of those kinds of startups?
\n\nJOSEPH: Absolutely. I would say that there has been a veritable Cambrian explosion of startups where everyone and their uncle is starting a healthtech startup as well as a healthtech fund. I see a lot of new funds coming up promising to invest in this space. So I think it's good in that there's going to be a lot of really new ideas, and hopefully, it's going to improve the standard of care for everyone around the world. But at the same time, it is creating a lot of noise, and it's becoming increasingly difficult to filter through that.
\n\nCHAD: Do the solutions tend to be local? I guess the nature of my question was, you know, like messaging apps. [laughs] Different countries have different popular messaging apps. What do you see as the penetration of different telemedicine solutions in the different countries? Do you think it's going to be, oh, you know, this is popular in this country? Or do you think it's possible for one company to come in and really have a significant impact in the market across multiple markets?
\n\nJOSEPH: Yeah, I think it's eventually going to be the latter. So at the start, you do see that you have your national champions. And like instant messaging apps, it's kind of like a 90-10 rule where the number 1 player takes 90% of the market, number 2 takes most of what's left, and then number 3 player caters to some niche or another. And I see two competing forces here; one is, yes, there may be a big player like Babylon or Crew who comes in and rolls up everything backed by heaps of capital.
\n\nBut the other thing could also be that all the health systems start saying, "You know what? Why are we working with an external company? Why don't we just develop all these capabilities ourselves and then keep the patient captive?" And you are starting to see middleware providers who are basically providing that telemedicine layer, white-labeling it, or giving API access to the providers themselves, the legacy providers themselves, and then allowing them to do that.
\n\nAnd I actually saw this statistic...I don't know how accurate it was, but I saw a chart in the U.S. that white-labeled or internal telemedicine consults exceeded the number of Teladoc consultations, which is the largest platform in the U.S., at some point last year.
\n\nCHAD: I'm wondering, do you know if Teladoc uses Twilio?
\n\nJOSEPH: I really should know the answer to that question, but unfortunately, I do not.
\n\nCHAD: Because my sense is the real winner in this game might be companies like Twilio because I think everyone is using them. [laughs]
\n\nJOSEPH: That makes a ton of sense. So when we do look at some investments, we actually want to invest in middleware because why duke it out to be the platform when you're the utility provider?
\n\nCHAD: So let's turn our attention to the actual creation of the fund. And I know you just opened your second fund last month, right?
\n\nJOSEPH: Actually, this month. I mean, last month was the paperwork, but it takes time for stuff to get approved.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, fair enough. So you already said actually starting a fund was, I think you said, the last thing on earth that you wanted to do. Why was that the last thing you wanted to do?
\n\nJOSEPH: Frankly, it was a whole lot more uncertainty than I was prepared to handle at the time. And I was either blessed or cursed with this momentary clarity of purpose where I knew with all my being that this is what I wanted to do with myself for, if not the rest of my life, a very long time. And the only alternative, or rather the only choice to pursue this at the time, was really starting a fund. So that's what I had to do, right?
\n\nCHAD: And how large was the first fund?
\n\nJOSEPH: It was pretty small; it was $7.6 million, which in local currency equates to a nice number of just above 10 million sings.
\n\nCHAD: And where did you...I'm going to ask where that ended up coming from. But in terms of the mechanics of actually starting a fund, what did that look like?
\n\nJOSEPH: Well, it depends on each market. But typically, what happens is you need to first have permission from the regulator in order to actually start and run a fund. So in Singapore, you need to apply for a venture capital fund management license from the Monetary Authority of Singapore. That's what had to be done first, and we got that approved in a pretty good time, actually. I think we might have captured a lull period because now, with all the funds coming out, I've heard the queue is months long in some cases.
\n\nAnd then came the business of incorporating the fund itself and then starting to draft all the legal paperwork, the conditions, the private memorandum or prospectus, depending on which geography and how regulated you are, that you show around to investors once they've expressed interest in learning substantially more details about your fund beyond what a simple PowerPoint deck or a casual coffee conversation can yield.
\n\nAnd then you start collecting commitments, and then you start collecting the money. And at some point, you have enough money to say, all right, we'll do a close or first close, and that then gives you permission to start deploying that money into investments. And some funds they'll only do one close, some funds will do a first close, and then a final close when they get the rest of the money in or some money committed and then calling the rest of it to come in. Or some will do multiple closes just so that they have the ability to keep deploying continuously while they're doing this fundraising process.
\n\nAnd in our case, we were doing rolling closes. So we would close every few months, and we'd continue to deploy. And by the time we finished fundraising, we actually already had nine companies out of the 15 that we have in our portfolio done. So it really depends on all sorts of different factors, which we probably don't have that much time to get into. And I risk perhaps putting my foot in my mouth and misspeaking if I give too many examples.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] When it comes to starting a fund, how cookie-cutter is it? Or do you find yourself having to create everything from scratch, all the legal documents, whatever platform you might be...or access you might be giving to the people who are contributing to the fund?
\n\nJOSEPH: I'd say, again, it depends where you are. I think in the U.S. and especially with the advent of great service providers platforms like AngelList and Assure, it is super cookie-cutter. In our part of the world, I still think it's somewhat cookie-cutter, but we got a little too cute.
\n\nCHAD: [chuckles]
\n\nJOSEPH: We thought, okay, it's our first time doing a fund. I've been an LP in other funds. What did I wish I had as an LP? And as a consequence, we introduced some hurdle rates of tiered carry, and even zero carry if we don't hit a certain return. And all that really did was just create more questions from the investors. So we should have probably done it as cookie-cutter as possible in hindsight.
\n\nCHAD: So I often hear from founders who talk about how it's important to have a VC fund behind you that you agree with, and want to work with, and are excited about, and that can be value additive. Do you need, as someone raising a fund, do you need to consider things like that or other things when it comes to the people you're taking money from the fund?
\n\nJOSEPH: Absolutely. Maybe knock on wood here, but our relative inexperience when starting a fund probably selected out all the folks who might not have gotten along with us anyway. And the fact that we're pretty straightforward and direct with what we want to do in our objectives probably helped with that selection process as well on the positive side. But I absolutely, absolutely can recommend having that alignment of values and mission with those who are on the journey with you for a good decade. It's like getting married, right?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. Well, so when you're planning a fund and thinking about time horizons, is a decade what you're thinking about?
\n\nJOSEPH: Yeah, all things considered. So our fund lifetime was eight years from final close. But still, it takes time to raise the fund and plan the fund, and you have people that are on board even before the fund begins. So it is a decade-long relationship, at least. And then some of the larger funds because they want to have a longer investment period, will push that out even further where they're going to be a 10-year fund from final close.
\n\nAnd if you have enough of your portfolio that hasn't exited yet but still has some value to be uncovered, you may ask your investors to extend the fund life even further. So this is a supremely long relationship that you have. And aside from evergreen funds that don't have a fund lifetime, I think this is about as long as it gets, although I have seen some people float the idea of a 20-year fund or a 50-year fund, but that's really not widely practiced. I think five years is the fastest I've seen, and ten seems to be the average.
\n\nCHAD: Where did that first fund come from? How did you drum up the interest and decide who would be a part of it?
\n\nJOSEPH: It's really the folks who have known me the longest or worked with me. So you know how they say when you're raising money for a startup, you get it from the three F's, Friends, Family, and Fools? For funds and for first-time fund managers, I think it's a pretty analogous group of people, although I don't think we have any fools.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJOSEPH: And, unfortunately, don't have family either. So it's really all friends, old co-workers, old clients, and then the people that they introduced us to. There were some serendipitous moments where people liked what I said at a conference, or we asked a tough question. And people asked, "Well, how can you ask such a tough question?" Then they got to know us and then decide to invest from there. But majority of it was just introductions, warm introductions. We never did any cold emails.
\n\nCHAD: Have there been any exits in the first fund?
\n\nJOSEPH: Not just yet. We do come in as either the first or second investor in these companies. So there is quite a long journey that we expect before we, you know, see some exits. There may be some this year. But if I look back at my angel investments, there was only real serious talk of an exit at the six-year mark for one of the companies that's doing really well. And even that exit turned out to be just another, you know, the investor changed their mind, and instead of buying the company, they decided to just invest more money into it. So this is a long journey.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, definitely. Did that make putting together the second fund any harder, or is that what everyone expects?
\n\nJOSEPH: I am cautiously optimistic because we're still so early in our journey that the only folks we've really spoken with are the ones who invested in our first fund or passed on our first fund because they don't back first-time fund managers. They come to expect that your second fund is built on the momentum of the first fund. And it's really your third fund that's built on the exit and actual realized track record of your first fund.
\n\nCHAD: That makes sense. What do you think is next for Verge HealthTech?
\n\nJOSEPH: Well, first things first, we got to get started with the second fund and see if we can build something to scale. I mean, the first fund was an experiment. It was a small fund, you know. Could we build the world's seed-stage global impact healthtech fund on basically a shoestring? And the second fund is now let's take everything that we wish we had for the first fund and scale it up so bigger initial ticket sizes because we want to own more, the ability to follow on properly, the ability to do more deals, which requires a much bigger team which we now have.
\n\nAs well as to go back and support the winners of our first fund as well as some of the companies that maybe we made a mistake on and passed but still have a strong enough relationship to revisit and get them on the next round or the round after that, or just new companies that the market has moved. You know, the area that we might have been really interested in at the seed stage is now a pre-A stage or an A stage.
\n\nSo that's really what we want to do with the second one. And it would be amazing to see where this goes. I'm thrilled that we actually have, well, I think, one of the best healthtech investment teams in the world; maybe I'm slightly biased with this.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJOSEPH: And I'm excited to see what we can do together.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. Well, I wish you the best. And I really appreciate you for stopping by and sharing with us. If folks want to follow along with you or get in touch with you, where are the best places for them to do that?
\n\nJOSEPH: Probably LinkedIn is the best way to do it. Also, I have a blog on Medium, which I'm sure can be linked in the show notes. I've been really bad...I've been traveling intensely in the past half-year. But I promise my next blog post will be interesting.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJOSEPH: Because I just got back from Rwanda and Saudi Arabia, which are two very, very different countries, however, with a great emphasis on improving healthcare, especially on the digital side.
\n\nCHAD: Well, that's exciting. So folks definitely can find the links for that in the notes, which you can find the notes; you can subscribe to the show and a full transcript of the episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening, and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Joseph Mocanu.
Sponsored By:
Carlos F. Gaitan Ospina is the Founder and CEO of Benchmark Labs, which provides IoT-based weather forecasting solutions for the agriculture, energy, and insurance sectors worldwide using proprietary machine-learning software.
\n\nChad talks with Carlos about creating the company, the hardware they're producing and what it is doing, and where the machine learning comes into play.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Carlos Gaitan, the Founder and CEO of Benchmark Labs, which provides IoT-based weather forecasting solutions for the agriculture, energy, and insurance sectors worldwide using proprietary machine-learning software. Carlos, thank you very much for joining me.
\n\nCARLOS: Thank you for the invitation, Chad. It's a pleasure to join you here.
\n\nCHAD: You work in a variety of different industries with weather forecasting solutions using machine learning. I'm really curious, at a high level, how did you get to where you created Benchmark Labs today?
\n\nCARLOS: Oh, thank you, Chad. That's a great question. I think that in many ways, it's a combination of life experiences and lots of user feedback. As a background, my mum worked for 28 years in the National Federation of Coffee Growers in my native Columbia. And we experience basically the effects of weather, La Niña, El Niño, local conditions, pests on the coffee growers. I remember growing up looking at the price in The New York Stock Exchange if the pound of coffee was going to be more than $1 or not [laughs] and so on.
\n\nSo, you know, we had a very severe drought in Colombia, and Colombia was heavily dependent in hydropower at that time. And I remember that we even had to study with candlelight and move to a spring savings time for the first time in the country. The country is in the equator, so you can imagine moving the clock was unheard of. So since then, I was always passionate about hydrology, the water cycle, why this happened, how weather can affect the economy at that level that people have to change their working habits.
\n\nI did civil engineering hydrology, then studied these new applications of machine learning technologies, hydroinformatics, did my studies there in Columbia, my bachelor's, my master's. Then I was fortunate to go to The University of British Columbia to study my Ph.D. in Atmospheric Sciences. And then, after I finished, I moved to The United States to work at the Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory in Princeton with close collaboration with the NOAA, the USGS.
\n\nAnd that gave that perspective also of understanding how weather climate models were done at the Department of Commerce level but also to understand the users on how they interact with weather data or climate data and what were the needs that they were expecting from the National Weather Service and the Department of Commerce and NOAA that not necessarily were fulfilled with the current information.
\n\nSo then I moved to the private sector, joined a hardware company, and met my co-founder of Benchmark Labs there then moved to California to work on consultancy of climate change assessments. But since the time at the Department of Commerce, it became very clear that what farmers and what users wanted was weather information that was more actionable, that was tailored to their specific location, especially for specialty crops.
\n\nThink about wineries, or coffee growers, orchids, stone fruits; they depend heavily on weather, and the information from the National Weather Services was just too coarse for them. And sometimes, there are huge errors in terms of temperatures that were recorded from their farm versus what the National Weather Service was doing. And that's why we decided to create Benchmark Labs to basically solve that problem, correct those errors, and give the information that the users needed when they needed it.
\n\nCHAD: Did you ever just consider becoming a TV weather person?
\n\nCARLOS: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: It seems it may be easier.
\n\nCARLOS: [laughs] Nah. That's a very good point.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nCARLOS: And I have great respect with my colleagues that went into forecast meteorology and TV persons. I remember some of my lab mates practicing in front of a green screen when we were doing the Ph.D.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nCARLOS: That was an interesting scenario. [laughs] However, growing up in Colombia, the weather forecasts were not very, let's say, accurate to a certain extent, and we did the opposite than the weatherman suggested.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nCARLOS: So I guess that steered me towards following that path. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: So it totally resonates with me this idea that, you know, especially for...I've been on the West Coast before where you go over a hill and the weather it's like 20 degrees hotter and sunny and on one side of the hill, it was cold and foggy. We went on a great company trip many years ago to visit some Napa vineyards, and I was surprised by that. So I can imagine how that local information just doesn't match the global information that farmers might be getting. So what is the hardware that you're actually producing, and what is it doing? What does it look like?
\n\nCARLOS: [laughs] Great question. So I will go back to your story about Napa and Sonoma, and the reality is that's exactly a problem that growers face; national weather agencies give averages over a big region. They divide the world in boxes, and everybody inside of a box receives exactly the same forecast.
\n\nAnd if you are especially in the coast or you're in specialty agriculture, you understand that weather changes with elevation. Depending on which side of the mountain you are, you could receive all the rain or no rain at all. If you are near the shores, you could also get more wind, different types of clouds, all of those situations affect the conditions at the farm.
\n\nAnd going back to the situation of Napa and Sonoma, Burgundy or the Mediterranean Basin, they all believe in the value of what they call the terroir, that is what makes also unique their products. They're indigenous, and they understand at a very fundamental point how the local conditions from the soil, from the vegetation, makes their farm unique.
\n\nSo what we do is we use IoT sensors, basically hardware sensors that monitor environmental variables. We refer to them in the atmospheric science world as weather stations. I had a talk with some users when I said the term weather station. They imagined a big construction or a building with a TV station on a radar or something. But in this case, there are IoT devices that are totally portable, the size of a Wi-Fi modem in some cases. And we use those sensors as ground truth that will basically tell us the local conditions. We use the information from the National Weather Services and the information from those IoT sensors and correct the forecast as they come.
\n\nCHAD: And is that where the machine learning comes in because it's actually correcting the forecast being received?
\n\nCARLOS: Exactly, our machine learning aspect of it is fully operational, non-linear correction of weather data as it comes in from the National Weather Services to correct it to the conditions that are experienced at the farm level, at the sensor level.
\n\nAnd a farm could be also an agricultural farm, or it could be a solar farm, a wind farm. Or, as we talk with some users in ski resorts that actually they consider as snow farmers, it's also affected by microclimates. So at the end, it is about providing value to all these areas affected by microclimates that are not being resolved correctly by the current generation of forecast from the National Weather Services.
\n\nCHAD: Are most customers able to get the coverage that they need with one weather station, or are they deploying multiple ones?
\n\nCARLOS: So that's a great question, and the answer probably is it depends. Our customers, original customers, have thousands of stations over multiple fields under management. For specialty crops, it's common to have multiple IoT sensors in one acre. For other scenarios, they might have only one station or one sensor every 10 acres or so on, so it depends on the condition. It depends on how technologically inclined are the users if they already invested in these IoT sensors or if they are looking into buying IoT sensors and then scaling up the number of sensors in their farms.
\n\nCHAD: How do all the sensors report their data back?
\n\nCARLOS: That is a very interesting question because they are, let's say, tens of hardware manufacturers globally. We also created kind of a Rosetta Stone that puts all the sensors to communicate to our back-end systems. We integrate different languages of each hardware manufacturer. It has its own ways of naming the variables. So we do the translation in our end. We receive the data via an API. These IoT devices are Internet of Things in many ways because they transmit data via Wi-Fi, satellite internet, you know, cellular.
\n\nCHAD: Cell, yeah. So different manufacturers might have different ways of actual communication, not just the protocol, but one box might be using Wi-Fi, and another one might be using a satellite.
\n\nCARLOS: Exactly. And sometimes, many manufacturers give you the options of connecting even using Wi-Fi or Bluetooth for IoT sensors that are near, let's say, a farm that has internet connectivity. If they are on the field farther away, they might need to get access to a data plan from a cellular carrier, 3G usually or 5G. In some areas, there is limited coverage so far. And if it's a very remote area, there are options to get satellite coverage.
\n\nCHAD: Now, I'm asking somewhat naive questions based on my understanding. And so if I start butting up against proprietary information, just tell me, "No." That's totally fine.
\n\nCARLOS: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: So when we're thinking about the amount of data coming in from all of these different weather stations that your customers have, is it a lot of data? Is it a lot of data points?
\n\nCARLOS: [laughs] It's a great question. So in many ways, yeah, each weather station communicates at different frequency. Sometimes what we are offering now is hourly transmission rates, but we also have access to government stations that sometimes only refresh once per day. So yes, it's a lot of data coming in, most of the data from the weather stations. Fortunately, it can be transmitted as a txt file, or it's only for one location. So the files are not big, but they are many per day. And so, we have probably done millions of operations already to assimilate data and provide the forecast.
\n\nWhile on the other hand, The National Weather Service provides one forecast for the globe, let's say every...some models are every hour, other models are every six hours, and so on. So that is more, let's say, a bigger data set because it's a global data set that then you have to query to extract the information locally that is relevant for your servers, for your users.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. And I think it's neat how this is all happening centrally from all the data coming in, right?
\n\nCARLOS: Yeah, exactly. We get data coming in for each specific location. We do the corrections, and we provide the forecasts. So there are lots of operations involved in the data handling activities, pre-processing, post-processing, but it's very rewarding at the end to provide the forecasts that are tailored to specific locations.
\n\nAnd we had seen users that they basically told us, "Okay, we are using provider B or C; can you beat them? Show us that you can beat them, and the contract will be yours." So we showed them, and then they are like, "Yeah, that's fantastic. This is exactly what we have been looking for, information that is more accurate for our farms," so yeah.
\n\nCHAD: Now, does your system correct itself based on what actually happened in an area after the modified forecast goes out?
\n\nCARLOS: That's not a very relevant question because some of the models are static. I used my experience when I did an internship in Environment Canada, and I found that they were adjusting their models, let's say four times per, at least the operational models they had, four times per year. They kind of tweaked them to the local, let's say, spring, summer, fall, winter conditions. In our case, we make our models to correct themselves as more data comes in so they can adjust to weather events and have short-term memory, let's say, of what they will wait heavily on and forget the distant past.
\n\nCHAD: I mean, it seems obvious, not necessarily easy but obvious, that you've made a prediction about what the weather is going to be, and you have all the data coming in from the stations to confirm whether your prediction was correct or not. So I'm sure it's not easy to adjust the model based on that.
\n\nCARLOS: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: That seems obvious to me.
\n\nCARLOS: Yeah, it's just a different approach in many ways. As you said, it's obvious because the users usually care about a specific location, at least our users. We understand that for national security or aviation, they require a model that provides coverage over a wider area, like sometimes continents. But for agricultural users, they care about their farms, and the farms will not move in space. So --
\n\nCHAD: Well, technically, they are moving in space; it's just the weather goes along with it.
\n\nCARLOS: [laughs] So yeah, I guess that it's just a different way of tackling the problem. We focus on doing these forecasts to each specific location instead of having a forecast done for the whole globe that could be used in many different locations or for many different industries, but it's not necessarily tailored to any industry-specific or location-specific.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's great.
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\n\nCHAD: So have you managed to bring it full circle now, and are there coffee growers in Colombia that are using your solution?
\n\nCARLOS: [laughs] I hope so. We have talked with coffee growers for sure. They care about temperature gradients. And I really think that going to Colombia as we scale will make the whole platform easier to use. I think that we can go full circle soon, sooner rather than later, into Colombia.
\n\nWe got support from the World Trade Center here in San Diego to do commercialization assistance to translate our solution from English to other languages. So we will be tackling Spanish, French, Italian in the very near future because it's important to offer the forecast also in a way that they could interact natively without having to have the limitation of using an English language platform into their day-to-day life. But yeah, full circle probably we’ll be going full circle soon.
\n\nCHAD: So language is one barrier to scaling and to adoption. Are there other ones that are typical barriers of adoption for your customers?
\n\nCARLOS: We are very competitive here in the North American market, the European markets. Our prices are in dollars. But that by itself is a problem for emerging economies; for example, you know, $100 here is not the same thing as $100 in other countries. We have to take into consideration exchange rates or the amount of disposable income that they will have for their operations.
\n\nCHAD: And I'm not super educated about it, but I know that there are certain industries in agriculture where the growers are particularly pressed for margins, and coffee is one of them, right?
\n\nCARLOS: Exactly. So, fortunately, in many ways, for the bigger crops, specialty crops they are traded, and the prices are linked to U.S. dollars so that can be translated, our services can be absorbed, let's say. For the smaller crops that are not traded or that just stay locally, the price is not linked to the U.S. exchange; then it's definitely a bigger barrier for them. But hopefully, we will get to a point if we have a sufficiently large adoption in North America and the developed world; these technologies could be subsidized or made more accessible in other economies.
\n\nCHAD: What are some of the concerns that growers have? Take the specialty crops, for example, is it a matter of are they doing this because they want to make the best product possible, or is it because they want to prevent crop loss?
\n\nCARLOS: It is both, actually. The uses of weather information in agriculture varies, as you said. There are many different applications; one is to get more actionable alerts. For example, we saw what happened in Burgundy last year where a substantial part of their region lost their crops, close to 80% maybe. I don't remember the number, but it was definitely substantial. And so, having more accurate forecasts and alerts gives them an opportunity to adapt better, to get cover, protect their fields to a certain extent. Weather information affects also pests and disease models, so application of fertilizer with spraying is also affected by local conditions.
\n\nIn many ways, for the operations that are very, let's say, sophisticated, some of them even link the sugar content on the fruit to weather conditions. And understanding how these weather conditions affect sugars could tell them when is the optimal time for them to, let's say, harvest? And the difference in the sugar content might determine the difference between higher margins or so-so margins [laughs] for their yield.
\n\nSo yeah, it's a combination of quality of the product. It's a combination of preventing loss of the product. And it's also labor scheduling and activities, for example, that are regulated by OSHA that prevent farm operations to maybe don't, let's say if they are like temperatures above 95 Fahrenheit or 100 Fahrenheit. So having that extra information in alerts will also help them with farm management operations.
\n\nCHAD: So can you give me a sense of the stage you're at or the scale you're at now with the business and where you see your next stages of growth being?
\n\nCARLOS: Thank you. Yeah, great. So we are fortunate to have scaled this solution beyond California. We are now a global platform. We are providing forecast to Spain. Recently, we got contacted by some growers in South America, so we are testing for avocado growers in Brazil and Colombia, for example. So I'm not serving yet coffee growers in Colombia, but the avocado growers in Colombia, it seems that they got a hold on what we do, [laughs] so it is getting there. And now we have the resources, the ability to go global and offer this anywhere in the world that is connected with an IoT device. So it's fully operational.
\n\nAnd we are now in the midst of fundraising to scale the team, provide the customer success operations, and to support growers in different geographies, to support growers of different crops. And I think that if we are going to be successful globally, it starts with customer support, customer success, and understanding your users' needs, so they don't feel that, again, they will receive a one size fits all vanilla-like solution and that we really care about why specialty crops are special.
\n\nCHAD: So when you were just starting out, who was the first team member that you added to the team?
\n\nCARLOS: Oh, it was great. So in many ways, I thank the Economic Development Council of San Diego for funding a set of interns in data science, weather analytics, and business development. So our first hires, in many ways, were supported thanks to the Economic Development Council.
\n\nWe were the two founders, and then we got support in business development to understand which, for example, specialty crops really care about weather. Then some data science interns, data scientists that helped us with grants that we did for the National Science Foundation, and NASA that we got...we supported one of the grants. During COVID times, we participated in a very interesting opportunity to know the effect of COVID on forest fires, for example, and that was in collaboration with NASA.
\n\nSo first hires were interns, entry-level positions in data science, in back-end engineering, and then front-end business development. Now we are very excited to be expanding the team. We recently hired a Chief Product Officer with ten years of experience in Bloomberg, experience with visualizations, and talking to customers and users. So I think that for us, it's very important to, again, I reiterate, to have the ability to provide a great user experience, to provide meaningful information for specialty crops so they feel that they are special.
\n\nCHAD: You mentioned that you got some business development help using those grants. But right now, is the actual sales work being done by the founding team?
\n\nCARLOS: Yeah, at the beginning, as a founding team in a small startup, you have to wear multiple hats. So yeah, it's very common, and in many ways, I appreciate that we didn't rush to hire in terms of sales too early because it's important that the founding team understands the user perspectives, their needs, what they call the pain points to understand how to steer product into that direction.
\n\nAnd then sales will follow once you have a solution that is highly needed, that users really like and that it can be shown that it can be scaled globally. So we are working on scaling, on accuracy of the forecasts. And yeah, next hires will be to get somebody that will help us in sales and can bring us to the next level.
\n\nCHAD: What does the sales cycle look like for the kinds of customers you have now? Do they tend to be smaller, or do they tend to be larger enterprise customers?
\n\nCARLOS: So, in the beginning, we worked with smaller enterprises to understand how to use the data, for example, connect the data from one or five sensors transmitted online. So dealing with smaller enterprises, farmers was optimal at that point as a company. And now, we are focusing more on businesses, farm managers, or management companies that have hundreds, sometimes thousands of sensors on their management.
\n\nSo we deal with more like business to business instead of going direct to grower at this stage because, as we were mentioning earlier, we're a small company, and going direct to grower requires lots of support and dedication in terms of dedicated agents and sales teams.
\n\nCHAD: Do those companies tend to have long sales cycles?
\n\nCARLOS: The bigger ones, yes. If you are talking about publicly traded companies, they will want to start with pilots then validate them. And you can move at different timescales with them that are not necessarily aligned with the startups at this stage. But there are some farm managers that have a way higher frequency of decision making. So their sale cycle could be one month, two months instead of having to build a relationship for years.
\n\nCHAD: You mentioned the pilots, and you mentioned earlier telling the story about a customer that said, you know, "If you can provide us with better data," but I think companies as they scale or as they talk to potential customers, you also don't want to take on too much work that you should be charging for to be able to do that pilot. How do you strike that balance?
\n\nCARLOS: It's a fascinating question. And I think that from a founding member perspective, let's say, it goes as a function of the stage of the company and what other, not necessarily monetary, benefits you can get from these pilots. We have been even recommended to not have unpaid pilots anymore, for example. I think that it's important at the beginning to get access to the information that you need to validate the technology with users that really care about what you're building.
\n\nAnd sometimes, there are different ways that these pilots can be structured in a way that the final user might give you a reference or might spend time with you doing the quality control, quality check, saying what kind of features they like, so that's also very important as a young startup.
\n\nAs you grow, probably once you have that validation, there is no need necessarily to take into endeavors that will lead to unpaid pilots that you don’t know if there's a clear end to that. And you can move to a more structured pilot program that has clear deliverables, and at the end of window, a decision will be made depending on the set of topics that were agreed between the companies.
\n\nCHAD: You might even be able to get away without pilots if you can make a strong case by showing other case studies that are relevant to that potential customer or where you explain, oh, you know, these people had a similar situation to you and here's how it's solved, and here's the success that they had.
\n\nCARLOS: Totally. You nailed it. It's in many ways to sometimes build credibility, find analogues in the sector, or a use case that can be comparable to the pain point that another user might have. And it could be, let's start with the avocado growers in Brazil, and they have probably the same pain points that they have with avocado growers in Colombia. Once we have that sorted out, then we probably can go and talk with avocado growers here in California or Mexico, Central America and tell them, "Hey, this is the value that we've unlocked in Brazil. Do you have a similar problem?"
\n\nCHAD: What I have found is that this is one of the important reasons why you have to have a good product which is part of what you've been saying all along, you know, you really wanted to focus on making sure the product was working and that it was good. Because when you do, then you can also use referrals, you know, not referrals, but like, hey, you want to talk to this avocado grower, and they'll be happy to talk with another potential customer because they're excited about what you've done for them and been able to do with them.
\n\nCARLOS: Totally, totally. And agriculture is always open to new technologies, but they are traditional in many ways. And it's a small circle, and I think that it is very important to build products right and really care about what you're doing and your end-users. Build together. Don't come necessarily with assumptions saying, "Hey, here agricultural grower A, I have a solution that will change your life," without knowing necessarily where are they coming from and their life experiences, and how they interact with products before.
\n\nSo yeah, I totally see the benefit of referrals. Word of mouth is very big, going to conferences with agricultural growers. There are big networking events that could help us more than just going and doing a Google ad campaign, for example, at this stage.
\n\nCHAD: I think that's probably an important lesson that not only applies in agriculture but in a lot of industries. And I really appreciate you stopping by to share with us. And I really wish you the best of luck as you progress in your journey at Benchmark.
\n\nCARLOS: Oh, thank you very much. I really appreciate it, and I hope that we can continue the conversation here. Just count with us anytime that you need to talk about weather, agriculture, IoT sensors. Happy to help the audience too, and always discuss what's out there to help the Giant Robots community. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Carlos, if people want to get in touch with you or find out more about the company, where are the best places for them to do that?
\n\nCARLOS: Go to benchmarklabs.com and then fill out a form there. And we will definitely be in touch with all of you. I will personally answer all the queries. I'm very, very happy to share our technology, share what we are building. And we are so excited because by having this technology, you can help save water, energy, and even pesticide use, and that's a huge contribution to the environment as we move forward. So yeah, thank you very much again for the invitation, and I'm here; count with me as a future resource.
\n\nCHAD: Wonderful. And you can subscribe to the show and find notes and links along with an entire transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening, and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Carlos F. Gaitan Ospina.
Sponsored By:
Dize Hacioglu is the CTO of Chicago’s mRelief, which offers an easy-to-use platform that helps families connect to SNAP food benefits. Since it was founded in 2014, the non-profit mRelief has helped 2.8 million Americans unlock $1 billion in food stamp benefits.
\n\nChad talks with Dize about how the platform helps people navigate the often complicated food stamp benefits system, what her role as CTO looks like as a CTO who codes, and how she hopes to help facilitate the growth of the mRelief program and team.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Dize Hacioglu, the CTO of mRelief, an easy-to-use platform that helps families connect to the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program. Since it was founded in 2014, the non-profit mRelief has helped 2.8 million Americans unlock $1 billion in food stamp benefits. Dize, thanks for joining me.
\n\nDIZE: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
\n\nCHAD: And thank you for all of your work at mRelief. It's a big help to everybody.
\n\nDIZE: It's my pleasure, and it's really an honor to be able to do the work that we do.
\n\nCHAD: Speaking of that work, tell me a little bit more about what the platform actually does for people.
\n\nDIZE: So mRelief is an easy to use platform that's accessible over text messaging or web that helps folks find out if they qualify for SNAP, formerly known as food stamps, and helps them apply in certain states or connect with community-based organizations who can help them apply if they'd like further assistance.
\n\nCHAD: So it's a pretty focused product, right? [laughs]
\n\nDIZE: Mm-hmm.
\n\nCHAD: But I'm sure that there's a lot going behind the scenes in order to make that pretty focused product happen. Is that right?
\n\nDIZE: Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yes, there are a lot of moving parts.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] So what's involved in figuring out whether someone is eligible or not?
\n\nDIZE: So there are actually a few patterns that we've discovered as we've been expanding our work from just one state where we were just in California for a while and then expanding it nationwide. We found that eligibility typically falls into a couple of different buckets. So we've been able to turn that into code that helps guide people through the typical questions of eligibility and takes them through the flow based on their state's eligibility of requirements.
\n\nCHAD: I guess my next question was going to be without mRelief; how difficult is this for folks?
\n\nDIZE: So I think most folks typically apply hoping that they're eligible, and they'll only really find out after the application process has been complete. They may have wasted time at the office, time filling out the application, time waiting for a phone call from the office only to find out that they are not eligible.
\n\nCHAD: So you mentioned you started just in California, and you've been expanding from there. You mentioned there are patterns that you found. How different are things state to state? And what does your growth trajectory look like throughout the United States?
\n\nDIZE: The biggest differences between states are income limits, the threshold that a family has to fall under in terms of monthly gross income to be able to qualify. So that has been a big data collection research project that we've done to be able to expand to all 50 states. And from their past eligibility, applications also differ from state to state. There's no one platform where you can fill out the same questions that are asked.
\n\nCHAD: I was just doing an onboarding call with some folks who are joining the thoughtbot team. And on the call, there was one person in the United States, three people who live in different countries in Africa; I think one other person in Europe. And sometimes, when I'm doing the onboarding calls with them, I have to explain how disjointed things are in the United States and which things are state by state because it surprises people.
\n\nWell, one, it surprises people who aren't in the United States that we don't have certain standard benefits like sick time in the United States. And then it also surprises people how much is actually determined by the state that you live in, even with...because SNAP is a national program, right?
\n\nDIZE: Correct. Yeah, it's federally funded.
\n\nCHAD: Right. So even with a federally-funded program, it still comes down to certain things being different in certain states, which is often really daunting and surprising to people.
\n\nDIZE: Yes, totally, totally. And it also gets even more complicated in some states like California and maybe even Texas, where it's county-administered, so each county has a different process. Sometimes they have different applications even between counties in the same state.
\n\nCHAD: So is there a reason for this other than making it hard for people to get the benefit? [laughter] That might be a political question. I just totally exposed my -- [laughter]
\n\nDIZE: I think that's a very valid question because I think we've seen instead of cutting benefits completely, administratives put up to dissuade people or make it more burdensome for people to access benefits as a way of keeping them from benefits nationwide, not just like any specific state. So I think that's a very valid question.
\n\nCHAD: But it's possible that there are other reasons, right? So, for example, like, oh, it's administered locally, or income levels are different in different places, and so it needs to be...I was just curious whether there were other reasons.
\n\nDIZE: Yeah, I'm actually not sure about the reasoning.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough.
\n\nDIZE: [chuckles]
\n\nCHAD: So you joined in 2017.
\n\nDIZE: Yes, I did.
\n\nCHAD: And Emily started in 2014.
\n\nDIZE: That's right.
\n\nCHAD: So what were things like when you joined?
\n\nDIZE: Well, I joined a team of two, and the two folks that were already on the team were the co-founders, Rose Afriyie and Genevieve Nielsen, and I was also joined by another co-worker who was hired at the same time as me. And we were only doing work in California, helping folks find out if they're eligible, helping them apply for CalFresh, which is the name for SNAP in California, and helping them through the post-application process like interviewing, collecting documents, getting a Lift ride to the office to get their card. So we were really focused on the end-to-end process in one specific, again, county because it's county-administered in California.
\n\nCHAD: So in just one county.
\n\nDIZE: Yeah, in San Francisco.
\n\nCHAD: And was there a tech platform at the time?
\n\nDIZE: Yes, we had our screener, and we had our simplified application.
\n\nCHAD: Had the founders created that?
\n\nDIZE: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: Okay. And how did they focus on...they're not in California, they're in Chicago, right?
\n\nDIZE: Yeah, we're based in Chicago.
\n\nCHAD: So why California and why that particular county? Do you know?
\n\nDIZE: I think it was an amalgamation of things (I don't know if I used that word right.), but they attended Y Combinator early on in the development of mRelief. So through that, they were able to get connections to the San Francisco Human Services Agency, who was our first big contract and allowed us to really develop the end-to-end process.
\n\nCHAD: So you joined as the third/fourth person on the team?
\n\nDIZE: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: And it may be obvious, but I'm going to ask the question anyway. What drew you to joining?
\n\nDIZE: I've always loved coding. For a long time, I felt at a loss how to combine my love of coding and wanting to pursue coding as a career with my desire to try to make a positive social impact in the world. And I don't think back in 2017; I was really aware of the civic tech space. In perusing job descriptions nationwide, I stumbled across mRelief on Idealist, and it sounded like the perfect match. And I remember feeling like this is my dream job. I can't believe I get to do this work and code at the same time.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] So you joined as a software developer at the time. Did you have aspirations to be CTO when you joined?
\n\nDIZE: No. [laughs] No, I remember looking at Genevieve, our former CTO and co-founder, and thinking I have no idea how she does her job and never thinking that I would find myself in this position. And it's been a massive learning experience and also a growth opportunity for me.
\n\nCHAD: What are some of the things that you needed to grow into or to learn in order to get to that point?
\n\nDIZE: I feel like most of the learning happened after. The biggest thing that I learned to prepare me to go into the CTO role was basically a very comprehensive understanding of our codebase. I think most of the skills or what I need to succeed in this role came after.
\n\nCHAD: Well, actually, let me ask a related but different question. CTO actually differs in different organizations. So, what does your role as CTO actually look like?
\n\nDIZE: It definitely does. And I think my role has even changed a bit in the year and a half or a year and three months that I've been in this role based on the growing team that we have at mRelief. But my day-to-day basically looks like working with our product team to plan for new features. I like to code, so I try to do some coding at least every day and also general oversight and, I guess, strategic thinking.
\n\nCHAD: One way in that description that stands out to me, you know, some other CTO might describe their role as very much not working on the code, very much not even really working with the team or product, and more focused on the executive level of the company or the needs of fundraising or something like that. So it sounds like you're very much still product-focused and oriented towards working on the product.
\n\nDIZE: Yeah, I think that's driven by a selfish desire to keep coding.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nCHAD: You're talking to someone who is in the exact same spot. There are times where I feel guilty about that.
\n\nDIZE: Yeah. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Here's my justification, [laughter], and I'll be curious in terms of your justification. I've done this for 19 years now. And I'm pretty confident that I would have burned out a long time ago if I didn't spend time coding. It's part of what I find rejuvenating and what I love to do. It doesn't mean that I can always afford to work on something for four hours straight, but it's part of what has made me be able to enjoy this work for so long.
\n\nDIZE: Yeah, I completely relate to that. If I wasn't coding, I don't know how long I could sustain myself [laughs] with so much responsibility. How do you find that balance?
\n\nCHAD: Well, I think part of it is freeing yourself up to not feel guilty so being really clear with others. Like, if someone asks for something from me, being like, yep, totally, I can do that. I can get it done by this day and pretty aggressively planning out my work or time, blocking my calendar and making it clear when I'm going to be able to have that thing for them.
\n\nAnd if that timeline doesn't work, then they can tell me that, and I can adjust. But that goes a long way towards when I am having a coding session that lasts half a day or something like that; I cannot worry or feel guilty that someone's waiting on me for something or that it's not what I should be spending time on.
\n\nDIZE: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
\n\nCHAD: What about you? Have you found things that work for you?
\n\nDIZE: I have been trying different things. I've been doing a lot of YouTube deep dives on productivity blogs, just different ways of thinking about prioritizing work and making sure that things get done. But I really like your point about allowing yourself not to feel guilty. And I do like to remind myself that I don't want to take the fun out of my job. I want that for other folks on the team, and I also want that for myself.
\n\nCHAD: The other thing that is on my mind when I'm doing something is there's this stereotype of the CTO who codes and makes a mess of things that the other people have to clean up.
\n\nDIZE: [laughs] Oh no. I didn't know about that.
\n\nCHAD: You know what I'm talking about?
\n\nDIZE: No. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Oh, no, no? It's like, oh, the CTO made commits at 9:00 p.m. last night. I guess I have to...and the build is broken.
\n\nDIZE: Oh no.
\n\nCHAD: I guess I have to...[laughs] so, does that describe you or no? [laughs]
\n\nDIZE: Oh my gosh. I'm definitely seeing myself in that description a little bit. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Oh no. [laughs]
\n\nDIZE: Literally, I was up last night pushing code to production, but I think it's okay. [laughter] I mean, I hope that that's not me. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: I try to avoid that because, you know, I want to feel like my work is useful and valued and not creating more work for other people.
\n\nDIZE: Yeah, definitely. I agree.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nCHAD: Tell me more about the tech stack for mRelief.
\n\nDIZE: So we use React and Rails. We're hosted on Heroku. Yeah, very basic.
\n\nCHAD: I heard that you use some thoughtbot stuff, so I assumed that it was Rails.
\n\nDIZE: [laughs] Yes. Yeah.
\n\nCHAD: That's great to hear.
\n\nDIZE: Yeah, I was messing with Paperclip this morning, actually. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Oh, well, Paperclip is deprecated. I'm sorry to tell you. [laughs]
\n\nDIZE: I know. [laughter] I had to fork it this morning to make a change.
\n\nCHAD: I still stand by that decision. I think it's important as sort of a community contributor that we signal overall direction and coalesce behind what's built into Rails once it was there.
\n\nDIZE: Okay, that makes a lot of sense.
\n\nCHAD: But yeah, was Rails in use when you joined?
\n\nDIZE: Yeah, we're using the same stack.
\n\nCHAD: How much has it grown over time, the codebase?
\n\nDIZE: I don't really know.
\n\nCHAD: That's interesting that you don't know. [laughs]
\n\nDIZE: When you say grown, like, I guess how is that measured?
\n\nCHAD: Oh yeah. I mean, is it more complex now than it was when you joined?
\n\nDIZE: Yes, definitely. Yeah, we've added new products that had never existed, and the fact that we've expanded to more states and our screener is nationwide that's added a lot of complexity.
\n\nCHAD: So, do you have ways that you manage that complexity, either in the code or in the business?
\n\nDIZE: What would that look like? [laughter] How would you manage that complexity?
\n\nCHAD: Well, I think it's a little dependent on where the complexity is coming from. So, for example, the screener is nationwide, you said, and so does the screener change based on where you're located once you start to fill it out?
\n\nDIZE: Yes, yes. The first question we ask is zip code.
\n\nCHAD: And then how does all of that branching work in the state-specific logic work? Is it all one big jumble of if statements and code, or is it factored out in some way to help keep that as clean as possible? And if the answer is it's all one big jumble of if statements, that's totally fine. [laughs]
\n\nDIZE: I was actually going to say both. [laughs] Because I think because of the patterns that we were able to establish, and the eligibility logic between all states, there's definitely some if branching, but there are enough shared concepts that we can keep it all in one to two files that are not too long.
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\n\nCHAD: So you mentioned the team has grown quite a bit. It seems like the development and design team is quite a bit bigger than two people now. How big is it?
\n\nDIZE: Well, the product team itself is eight people now, I think. And the team, the whole mRelief team, we just had two new folks start today, so I think we're at 20.
\n\nCHAD: What does your onboarding process for bringing new team members on look like from a technical perspective?
\n\nDIZE: So the first two weeks, folks are typically in a bunch of onboarding meetings just getting acquainted with the history of mRelief, our current processes, and stuff like that. But for our tech team, we like to jump in with them as soon as possible, get them set up obviously locally and have them contributing with some kind of low-hanging fruit tickets at first so that they have some code pushed up in the first week or two.
\n\nCHAD: Are you facilitating that through pairing with someone existing on the team, or are folks doing that independently?
\n\nDIZE: Depending on the complexity of the ticket, sometimes we pair. Mostly it's independent work.
\n\nCHAD: Some companies and some teams have the goal of like, oh, you know, first commit to production on your first day. Do you have anything like that either with the code or with the processes like benchmarks that you use of, like we really want this to happen but on the first day or in the first week?
\n\nDIZE: No, we don't have anything like that.
\n\nCHAD: At the size, you're at now, some companies start to break into sub-teams or squads or focus areas. Are you starting to do anything like that?
\n\nDIZE: I've thought about it here and there. But I think we all like sharing responsibility for all of the different products and getting our hands into all the different ways that we connect with users. So we haven't formalized anything like that.
\n\nCHAD: So that means you have one backlog of everything that's slated to be worked on.
\n\nDIZE: Yeah, that's right.
\n\nCHAD: Is that overwhelming sometimes?
\n\nDIZE: Yes. [laughter] Yeah. I don't know about your experience with backlogs, but I assume that they're always overwhelming.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it. I think that not having it requires very aggressive management that a lot of teams are not willing to do. And then when you have a team of 10 or 12 people all working across multiple apps or all on the same app doing a lot of different stuff, that's overwhelming on the other side of just the amount of stuff that's happening every day can sometimes be overwhelming.
\n\nAnd people start to sort of step on each other. Oh, you know, we've got these two pull requests, and every time I go to make a change, something has merged into main that now my branch is behind. And if you're waiting for CI to pass and your CI is too long, something new has been merged in by the time your CI run finishes. Those are some of the challenges that I hear people facing.
\n\nDIZE: Interesting. What are those aggressive management things that you were speaking of to avoid backlogs?
\n\nCHAD: I think it basically means saying no to things. So I think when we talk about a backlog being overwhelming, one of the worst things that comes to mind mostly, and let me know if this is part of the problem you're feeling or not, but it's really long. And somewhere in there, there's like the bug that was created two years ago by someone that has never been addressed, or maybe it has been, and the ticket was never moved forward. And so you end up with 500-600 things and a long list that becomes then very difficult to ever really prioritize because it's not possible to prioritize that many issues. Does that resonate with you at all?
\n\nDIZE: That does resonate. I was scrolling through our backlog today, and I was like, when is this going to end? [laughter] I guess I hope that was normal. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: It is normal, or I should say I think it's common.
\n\nDIZE: Common, okay. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: I think it is a problem a lot of companies face. And like I was saying, I think one of the only solutions to that is basically, well, so either someone or a team that is very comfortable saying, "We don't need a ticket for that because we're just not going to get to it," or being able to delete something that you've not...or move it out that this was created two years ago. It's just not doing us any value to have it hanging around anymore.
\n\nDIZE: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That's helpful.
\n\nCHAD: And some companies do it by policy basically. They have a philosophy or a policy that says, "This needs to be a thing that comes up." They have a product manager who's paying attention to what's going on and is like, okay, this is the third time that this has come up. Now we'll create a ticket for it because we're actually going to do it. And you only create tickets for things that are for the next four weeks, for the next six weeks, and that you use something else other than tickets.
\n\nSo one thing that I've found really works well for me, and I like this idea of the difference between a discussion or an idea and the work to be done is; for example, we often use Trello for project management and a Kanban board of the work that's actually happening in the backlog. But anything that's not a concrete item that we're going to actually prioritize and do is better off in a messaging system like Basecamp or another tool where it's more of like a discussion about what we might do, and we post designs and those kinds of things.
\n\nAnd it's not until it's actually okay; we plan to do this three weeks from now that it gets a ticket created. And if you're really aggressive about that, that works pretty well. But you really need to stay on top of it. And if someone creates a ticket for something, and then it turns out that you're not going to do it in a reasonable timeframe, it moves out and becomes a discussion.
\n\nDIZE: Oh, I really like that. That's a really great process. I feel like I'm using this as a [laughter] mentorship session. So thank you for that guidance.
\n\nCHAD: My pleasure. It's funny that we've hit upon this because I think it is a common problem. And then the other thing is like, okay, great, Chad, that's wonderful. I have 600 things in the backlog; how can you...I don't have a great answer for that [laughs] other than basically one of the things that I've done and seen other teams do is...so what project management tool are you using now?
\n\nDIZE: We're using Asana.
\n\nCHAD: Asana. It's basically creating another project and taking everything that's not going to be done in the next two or three weeks and moving it to another project and then saying, okay, what our process from now is going to be is we have a biweekly planning meeting, or we have a weekly planning session. And what we're doing as part of that is taking things from the project where we moved everything to, and we're only moving the things over that we're actually prioritizing and going to do in the next X number of weeks.
\n\nDIZE: Cool. That makes a lot of sense. Thank you.
\n\nCHAD: I hope that's helpful. [laughs]
\n\nDIZE: That is helpful. No, yeah, thank you so much. I'm still new, and I have so much to learn. [laughs] So this has been really, really informative.
\n\nCHAD: So actually, this leads me to something I was wondering about based on this conversation and just in general, is as CTO, who are you actually leading? And is there a separate product manager or a team that actually doesn't report to you?
\n\nDIZE: No. I basically lead the product team. We do have a product designer who takes on more of the management of the design part of the product team, but I don't think we've grown big enough to silo like that yet.
\n\nCHAD: And I don't recommend it. I think it's great when you have an integrated design and development team working together. At a certain size, yeah, you need to create divisions, and you need to, you know, that kind of thing. But it's better when design and development work really closely together to create something great, in my opinion.
\n\nDIZE: Yeah. I've also found that to be effective.
\n\nCHAD: You have people on your team with different levels of experience. How, as a leader, do you attempt to...I think you're a great example of someone who joined at the level of software developer and grew in their career to be CTO. Like, how do you help others do that?
\n\nDIZE: I think the biggest part of that is assessing how they see their career growing. I don't know if everybody wants to be a CTO, wants to be a manager, or just wants to continue to be an individual contributor at a higher level. So just trying to work with them to figure that out for themselves and then providing opportunities to gain that experience like leading a project, or taking on management responsibilities, providing more ownership, and leaving them to their own devices as much as they are comfortable.
\n\nCHAD: The fact that mRelief is a non-profit, how much does that factor into your day-to-day or your ability to build a team and hire or anything like that? Is that something that you feel on a regular basis?
\n\nDIZE: The biggest way that I feel it is hiring. I don't know if you're also experiencing this, but it's like, it's been a very competitive market, especially recently. And I know it's always been, but recently, I feel like it's turned up a lot. Trying to align compensation to the market has been a particular challenge.
\n\nCHAD: Where does the funding for mRelief come from?
\n\nDIZE: So we're funded in a couple of different ways, a couple of different streams. We are funded through grants, individual donations, and government contracts.
\n\nCHAD: Hiring, especially in a world where you're competing to hire against companies that don't need to be sustainable or profitable, like, they've gotten millions of dollars, and they can just spend it, that is tough. And thoughtbot has existed in that environment forever basically because we're a consulting company which started from scratch without any investors or anything like that.
\n\nAnd so we focused on being the kind of place that people want to work, having good benefits. We're not going to be able to compete against companies on compensation directly. And so we focus more on paying people fairly and what we can afford but being the kind of place that people actually want to work.
\n\nDIZE: What have you found to be the most, I guess, successful exploration of that?
\n\nCHAD: Well, it's evolved over time. There were a lot of things that we could put out there in terms of what it was like to work at thoughtbot versus what it was like to work at the typical startup company that made us special, and it wasn't anything radical. It was just like, you're going to work sustainably, and we're not going to approach deadlines in the same way. You're going to have agency over your work.
\n\nYou're going to work with a really great, smart team of people who are all sort of like...the analogy I use is like a professional sports team. They make it look easy. And it's not super stressful all the time because you don't need stress in order to do great things; you need people who are given the space to do great work.
\n\nAnd I'll be honest; actually, we're one of the best places you can work if you want to do Rails work. Now, a lot of that stuff has evolved. I think startup culture is different than it was 15 years ago. And there are more companies where you can work in Rails that aren't as bad as they quite honestly used to be. We used to be able to point to companies and be like, you don't want to work there. And there are less companies that we can do that to now.
\n\nDIZE: Oh wow. Okay, so folks have started to kind of simmer down on expectations and just the hassle of startup culture?
\n\nCHAD: I think so. And then you have examples if you want to stay working in Ruby, then you have companies like GitHub and that sort of thing where they hire remotely. They've addressed a lot of the problems that they had in their culture. No company is perfect, but I think they've made it seemingly from the outside.
\n\nAnd from the number of thoughtbot people that we've had join GitHub, they seem to have addressed some of those issues. We've needed to, in some ways, double down on some of them, like in terms of really recognizing we can have a culture where you can actually have an impact on who we are and what we do in a way that you can't in a big company.
\n\nDIZE: Oh, yeah, yeah. That resonates for sure.
\n\nCHAD: Is that part of what you've done? Obviously, you have a mission-driven impact-oriented thing which I think probably draws people who want to do that, right?
\n\nDIZE: Yeah. And I think what we can offer that feels more unique is shared leadership. So like you said, having a lot of sway and impact on the way that the organization is run day-to-day because we really believe in distributing those responsibilities.
\n\nCHAD: What's next for you and the mRelief team?
\n\nDIZE: Well, we have some goals this year that mean expanding to a couple of more states. So we have our simplified application and also our assistance platform and about 12 partners, ten states, or something like that. And we want to expand to eight more states by June of 2023. So that's going to be a lot of our focus this next year.
\n\nCHAD: So you talked about how hiring has been a challenge. So I presume that means you're trying to hire some new people to be able to accomplish these goals.
\n\nDIZE: [laughs] Yes. Right now, we're looking for a full-stack dev experienced in React and Rails at least a year or two to help us with that expansion.
\n\nCHAD: Oh, that's another thing that has helped us hire is having an apprentice program where the majority...we don't take people who are brand new and teach them. But it's sort of like one level up, taking intermediate people who wouldn't be able to bill at the level us and our clients need them to and getting them to that level in a three to a six-month timeframe where we don't bill their time. They're paired with mentors. They work one on one with a mentor, and it's a rotation program. So they rotate the mentors. That has been really helpful for us.
\n\nDIZE: That's amazing. I would love to do something like that, and I would love to also even train folks from the ground up. I feel like that's like a pipe dream just based on capacity. But I think there are so many folks whose voices don't get to be in product development, and I'd love to foster that.
\n\nCHAD: Do you think you have the space to be able to do that, or do you think that what you're saying about it's hard for your team to have the bandwidth to train those folks?
\n\nDIZE: I think it's a problem of bandwidth, at least right now. Hopefully, it'll change.
\n\nCHAD: That's one of the reasons why we don't work with people in the beginning stages but rather someone who can be an effective pair for a Rails developer. That's a good point because they can learn a lot, but they're an effective pair. They're not slowing anybody down, and we can teach them primarily through pairing. Whereas if someone doesn't even know HTML, that is an issue that we haven't been able to...we can train, but it's hard to balance that and have enough bandwidth to teach people that.
\n\nDIZE: Yeah, that's brilliant. That makes a lot of sense. What kind of credentials do those folks usually have? Are they out of a bootcamp or self-taught?
\n\nCHAD: Some of them are out of bootcamp, and we could take more out of bootcamp. Out of bootcamp is actually a very fine stage. The problem is that there just aren't a lot of opportunities like this. And so, for example, for our last quarter's apprenticeship, we had four apprentice positions, two designers and two developers. We got 1,033 applications.
\n\nDIZE: Oh my God. Oh my God. Wow.
\n\nCHAD: And we screen all of them, and we respond to everybody but as a result of that, what it means is the more experienced people are likely to take up and get the spot over someone with no experience at all, which I don't love, but it's difficult to not have that happen.
\n\nDIZE: Got it. Very, very competitive. Wow.
\n\nCHAD: Right. Right. Our people operations person likes to point out that it's more competitive than Harvard.
\n\nDIZE: Oh my God. [laughs] What does that make the acceptance rate?
\n\nCHAD: I don't know. [laughs] Four out of 1033; I don't know.
\n\nDIZE: Dang. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: It's low. In order to balance that a little bit and to strike a balance and find the people who I like to call the top candidates, like, they're not the most qualified, but they're the top. And I'm still working on this term but basically focusing on things that aren't just what they can do for code or their coding experience.
\n\nLike, the things that are important for consulting are like, do you have experience talking with people? Have you been a teacher? Have you been in retail? Even being in retail is a little bit of a plus over someone else necessarily who's just been a coder forever.
\n\nDIZE: Yeah, yeah, some kind of diverse working background.
\n\nCHAD: And at least I think it's really important that someone with a really strong background that lends themselves to being a good consultant is able to get an interview even if they don't have a lot of actual work experience. I think that that's really important, at least giving them the shot even if, after interviewing them, we think that we need to move forward this other candidate.
\n\nI think it's really important that the initial screening not completely screen out people just based on, for example, years of experience. We don't look at degrees at all. That's not even a factor in normal thoughtbot hiring. It's not something that we look at.
\n\nDIZE: Oh, good. That is such a cool program. I wish more places did that. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Oh, me too. It would make our job easier because we wouldn't need to reject so many people. We could refer them to these other places.
\n\nDIZE: [laughs] Oh my gosh. Yeah.
\n\nCHAD: We're actually changing the program for 2022 because we know that there are tons of people, not a lot of opportunity. It used to be that we would do interviews, and then we'd be forced to say, "We're not taking you now, but we are moving forward in the process with these ten people and whittling it down to the 2."
\n\nWhat we're doing now is we actually continue the interview process with everyone who passes the things that we're looking for. So we can get to the end of the process, and even if we only have two slots, we've identified the five people who would have been able to do it. And then what we do is we say, "We think you're a great fit. There are just not enough slots right now. So can we reconsider you or schedule you for a future slot?" That's what we're trying to do.
\n\nDIZE: Interesting. Has it been helpful?
\n\nCHAD: We're only in the second quarter of doing that. So we're still a little early with that change. But I can already anticipate the problem, which is there are too many people we would take.
\n\nDIZE: Ooh, yeah. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: And so I carried forward 15 People from the last session, from the last quarter. And that 15 is more than...[laughs] and unless we're willing to then turn off applications so new people can't apply, we still get, you know, so the last quarter was 970 applications about.
\n\nDIZE: Oh wow.
\n\nCHAD: This quarter was 1,033. So one of the factors that has really helped with our hiring is we decided to go fully remote at the beginning of 2021, and that has really helped us expand to being able to hire a little bit more competitively by not competing against everyone in the places where we had offices previously.
\n\nDIZE: That makes sense.
\n\nCHAD: But I noticed that you're still a Chicago-based team, right?
\n\nDIZE: We're still Chicago-based, but we're remote now, fully remote. Our headquarters are here. We do have a lot of team members here. We also have folks throughout the States.
\n\nCHAD: On the development team too?
\n\nDIZE: Yes, on the development team.
\n\nCHAD: Oh, okay, great. So when did that...did that change with the pandemic, or did you have it before?
\n\nDIZE: It changed with the pandemic. So before, we weren't remote at all; we were always in person.
\n\nCHAD: Has that been a big change, or an easy change, or a hard change for your team?
\n\nDIZE: I think a pretty easy change. I think we're all...well, I don't want to speak for everybody, but it seems like it went quite smoothly. We do offer a monthly stipend for Deskpass in case anyone wants a physical workspace and may sometimes meet up to co-work for a sense of community and camaraderie. But other than that, folks seem to really enjoy it.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I think for us, it was also not a difficult transition when it came down to a lot of the work and that kind of thing. I think the biggest challenge for us has been we're bigger, and so there were people...and we very much we are local teams working with local clients. And so, there was a segment of the thoughtbot team that never opted in to a fully remote company.
\n\nAnd so they've understood the transition, but they didn't necessarily choose it for themselves. And so they have their choice of...like you said, it's a competitive market. It is important for teams to be clear about who they are and how they work. And if someone at the end of that says, "You know what? I understand, and that's not for me," I think that's okay.
\n\nDIZE: Yeah, definitely, like self-selection. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for stopping by and talking with me. I really appreciate it.
\n\nDIZE: Yeah, thank you for having me. It was so lovely to chat. And thank you for all the great advice.
\n\nCHAD: I wish you and the mRelief team all the best and keep in touch.
\n\nDIZE: Thank you, you too.
\n\nCHAD: Oh, wait, if people want to find out more, we got to say the website. [laughs] And if they want to get in touch with you, where are the best places for them to do that?
\n\nDIZE: So our website is mRelief, so M as in mom, relief as in sigh of relief, mrelief.com. We're on some socials. Our name differs [laughs] based on the social, but we're on Twitter and, Instagram, TikTok soon. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Oh, wow.
\n\nDIZE: [laughs] Yeah, that's it.
\n\nCHAD: And that's where people can find the job posting as well?
\n\nDIZE: Yeah, on our website.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. Well, thank you again.
\n\nDIZE: Yeah, thank you.
\n\nCHAD: You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode along with an entire transcript of the episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening, and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Dize Hacioglu.
Sponsored By:
Michael Benezra is the Executive Director and Co-Founder of the GK Fund: a nonprofit social impact fund to support BIPOC-owned companies in Greater Boston. Michael also serves as the COO of Colette Phillips Communications, helping to lead the All Inclusive Boston tourism campaign, among other projects.
\n\nChad talks with Michael about being a BIPOC ally, disparities amongst the VC world, and how the GK Fund looks for the same things in BIPOC-owned companies that they look for in other companies because the innovation is there; it's just that the opportunity isn't.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel, and with me today is Michael Benezra, Executive Director and Co-founder of the GK Fund, a non-profit social impact fund to support BIPOC-owned companies in Greater Boston. Michael is also the COO of Colette Phillips Communications, helping to lead the All Inclusive Boston Tourism Campaign, among other projects. Michael, thank you for joining me.
\n\nMICHAEL: Thanks for having me.
\n\nCHAD: I'm curious about the GK Fund. When did you start the Fund?
\n\nMICHAEL: So, at the time, I was working for the Israeli Foreign Ministry, and I was working with venture capital firms, private equity firms. And I was representing over 200 Israeli companies in New England, most of them startups. And my wife is Black; my family is Black. I've been close to that community for a long time. And especially in the venture capital world, I started to see some real disparities amongst other disparities in general everyday life, but it was particularly bad in the VC world.
\n\nAnd so Colette being a mentor and a friend of mine, Colette Phillips, I approached her, and I said, "Hey, what do you think about starting this fund, this non-profit fund?" And her and Andre Porter, who is our other co-founder who used to be the head of the state's business development agency in Massachusetts, we all decided to band together and start this non-profit. Now, we started the non-profit in December of 2019, so the pandemic hit right as we were creating this organization. And we had a decision to make, do we put this on hold, or do we move forward and accelerate? And we decided to just move forward.
\n\nCHAD: Well, I'm glad you did. I'm glad you made that decision. Hopefully, you feel the same way. [laughs]
\n\nMICHAEL: Yeah, I do.
\n\nCHAD: You're absolutely right. There's a big need here. And I actually have had over the last two months or so a few different guests that are creating VC funds or funds of certain kind that address underrepresented communities, Black, another one was veterans. And there's such a big need. How did you decide what you were going to focus on or focus down into so, for example, focusing on Boston?
\n\nMICHAEL: For Boston specifically, it had to do mostly with proximity. So I went to Harvard here for grad school. I worked for Governor Patrick. And so, for me, it was natural to stay local, especially during COVID. In my experience, there were a lot of BIPOC, particularly Black-owned startups, that were on paper akin to a lot of other startups in the Israeli world, which were very developed or also in the United States.
\n\nI'll give you an example; there was a company that I worked with that had a $100 million valuation but had no products, no physical products. They had no revenue, but they had innovation. Now, you and I being very honest, do you think a Black-owned company could get away with that?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, no.
\n\nMICHAEL: There is no way. I knew that; the other entrepreneurs that I've talked to know that. That is a terrible double standard that needs to be fixed. So we look for the same things in BIPOC companies that we look for in other companies because, for the most part, the innovation is there; it's just that the opportunity isn't.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. To dig into that a little bit more, I think one might say, well, if they had a founding team that had a proven track record, then maybe. And that's where you get to the fact that it's systemic, too, because if the headwinds are there where they can never get that experience, to begin with, they never get that opportunity, to begin with, then they're not going to have a founding team that has a track record that will be invested in based on just the team.
\n\nMICHAEL: That is 100% accurate, but it's actually even worse. So we do not ask our founders in the application process for their educational background. But all six of the companies that got grants from us last November they all have their bachelor's, four out of six have masters or higher. And so the cream definitely rose to the top. We had a store owner she owns an online boutique who got an engineering degree from Purdue. And we also have an entrepreneur who was an attorney at State Street, a corporate attorney, and now he's created this startup. And so, in some cases, like in most other areas, these individuals are overqualified.
\n\nCHAD: So, what is the funding model for GK on both sides of the equation? Where is the money coming from, and then how are you funding the companies?
\n\nMICHAEL: So we raise money organically like any other non-profit does. So we apply for grants. We take corporate donations. We take individual contributions online. Most of our money so far has come in through corporate contributions. So PNC Bank has been with us since the beginning. They made a very large commitment to supporting racial equity, and they've really stuck to it. The Bar Foundation has been exceptional.
\n\nAnd then we've also had a group of individual donors who were actually White women who have started their own non-profit now, and they've also banded together to give us money that we need to re-grant to the companies. We have over 100,000 from the State of Massachusetts to operate a grant program. So money is coming through a number of different avenues.
\n\nWe've issued six micro-grants so far at $10,000 each. We did that in November. We plan to do ten more in the next month. I said in the Boston Business Journal article you can give us money, but you can't park it with us like you could with a donor-advised fund and watch it accumulate interest for 15 years. We're going to take it, and we're going to give it to the people that need it the most.
\n\nCHAD: And are they grants then? You're using the word grants, so I assume that they are. So you're not doing this in exchange for equity in the companies?
\n\nMICHAEL: No, no equity in the companies, no convertible notes, just a straight capital grant directly to the company. So I send a message over to our fiscal sponsors at Philanthropy Massachusetts. They send the check directly over to the company. After that, we have the company fill out a survey letting us know what they plan to use it for, but we're not overly prescriptive. And that's actually the way that philanthropy is heading right now is, putting fewer restrictions and barriers in the way. And that's another thing I'll talk about as well is making it easier for companies to gain access.
\n\nCHAD: So, did you ever consider more of a traditional VC fund model with this?
\n\nMICHAEL: Yeah, originally, I did. Before the pandemic, actually, I did. So the original purpose or impetus of the fund was to take companies that were coming out of accelerator programs that were underfunded. You have some great accelerators, but you have companies leaving with a business plan and $2,000. In some cases, there are companies that have been through three accelerator programs. They're not getting as much out of it as they should. I wanted us to intervene, find the companies that have the most potential, and make investments. But after COVID hit, it was a crisis. And so, we needed to shift our focus to philanthropy.
\n\nCHAD: The nice thing about that is then you can do those grants with basically no strings attached for the companies. Whereas if you were taking money from people who expect to get a return on that investment, you wouldn't be able to do that.
\n\nMICHAEL: That's exactly right. There are organizations out there that say that they're making an impact when in reality they're just making, you know, loans which is not a not a bad thing. But they're issuing loans, or they're taking equity in the companies, that's fine, but it's not what we're doing.
\n\nCHAD: What are your plans for, like, upcoming? Are you going to be continuing with micro-grants, or do you have bigger plans?
\n\nMICHAEL: We have bigger plans. So I can't say too much right now because we have an announcement coming up. But I will say issues like legal services have come up. There's a constant need for attorneys for any company, whether it's contracts, or locking down real estate, or copyright and trademark, or IP. We are working with a very large prestigious law firm that's really making a generous commitment to our companies. And this would involve us even adding free legal services for an entire year to our grantees. So that's one thing that we're planning to do.
\n\nAnd then the other is, and this another function of the fund, is we speak with organizations like Lyft who's donated like $5,000 in ride credits that we're giving to our grantees or Wix, which has given us like 75% off of websites. We work with partners who can also give us other services that we can provide to these companies to try to get them closer to where there's a gap.
\n\nGiving them capital is not enough. The disparities are too significant. We also partnered with Berkshire Bank, so I can make direct referrals for loans if they need them. But the idea is to really narrow that gap and give these companies the same opportunities that their White counterparts have.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. So you, as someone who's White doing this work, how do you find yourself in the community? How do you be an effective ally and advocate?
\n\nMICHAEL: For me personally, my connection personally through my wife and also through my family and my boss. Colette is a pioneer. She's a Black woman in Boston who moved here not knowing anybody. And 30 years later, she's on The Power of 50 and 100 influential lists, but she did that through hard work. And she's worked much harder, I think, than she would have had to if she weren't a woman from Antigua who came here on her own.
\n\nBut ultimately, as an ally, it's my role; it's our role to step in between situations where there's inequity. So if there is a company, one of our companies, for instance, who's having a problem locking down real estate, (I think I use this in the article.), and they're saying, "Well, the real estate agent is telling us they can eliminate our lease at any time they prefer which I know is basically legal." I'll call them up and say, "Look, I'm with the fund. We're backing this company; we support them. What's the situation?" And unfortunately, most of the time, the outcome actually changes.
\n\nSo it's a matter of almost you got to be proactive, and you got to be intentional. You have to use your privilege in the best way that you can. So I think that's how you do it. And then, when it's time to shed a light on these companies, you take a step back, so it's not my role to go out there and promote myself. If anyone asks me, I'm always promoting the companies. So the best thing we can do is be advocates. You can be out front, but at the end of the day, it's about uplifting them, these companies in this case.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's great. Speaking of that, I was going to ask you, what are some of the companies that you have given the micro-grants to, and do you know how they use them?
\n\nMICHAEL: Yeah, so we gave our grants to six companies. One is called MustWatch, and MustWatch is founded by Che, and Che, his family, is from Haiti. They are an app. You can actually find them on the App Store. But what they do is they allow you to log in, select which movies and television shows that you watch, and share them with your friends. And it sounds like a very simple concept, but there is actually nothing on the market that allows you to do this.
\n\nAnd the idea is that you're collecting data while you're doing this as MustWatch. So at the end of the day, if you have a sample of like 20,000 users on the platform, you gain a lot of valuable insight and data. And that data can be useful for Nielsen or the television networks or movie production studios. I encourage people to sign up for MustWatch because if you spend as much time as I do looking for good movies, you're probably miserable.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nMICHAEL: [laughs] I spend so much time doing that. We also have a few online retailers. So we have B. Royal Boutique and So Zen Spa, both of them have doubled their revenue during COVID. They originally had stores. They pivoted during COVID, went online, and really were excellent when it comes to branding and marketing on social media and on other digital platforms. So they've been very successful.
\n\nWe have a company called Black Owned Bos., which is pretty well known here in Boston. They basically focus on organizing and running pop-up shops. And Jae'da, who's the head of the company, is just, I mean, she's a business mastermind. She's brilliant, always finding new ways to innovate. And then we have Our Village, which is focused on community development and housing. And finally, sySTEMic flow, which is a company that helps school districts, educators support Black women in STEM and STEAM fields. So we looked for companies that could pivot, basically.
\n\nCHAD: And you mean in the face of the pandemic.
\n\nMICHAEL: In the face of the pandemic, we looked for companies that had success and had a plan and also knew their audience. The main things that we look for…and I should say this too; our application process takes an average of seven minutes. And the way that I did that was I evaluated over 20 accelerator applications. I did a comparative analysis and identified the questions that were either irrelevant or unhelpful for us. And that gave us a very short application for our companies but one that's really efficient.
\n\nAnd basically, what we're looking for is companies that have a good business model, have a very specific customer base and target market, and have a strong founder, and also has been undersupported. There are companies that we've identified for our next cohort that by this point in their development would have been venture funded in my experience, at least, had they not been people of color.
\n\nMid-Roll Ad
\n\nI wanted to tell you all about something I've been working on quietly for the past year or so, and that's AgencyU. AgencyU is a membership-based program where I work one-on-one with a small group of agency founders and leaders toward their business goals.
\n\nWe do one-on-one coaching sessions and also monthly group meetings. We start with goal setting, advice, and problem-solving based on my experiences over the last 18 years of running thoughtbot. As we progress as a group, we all get to know each other more. And many of the AgencyU members are now working on client projects together and even referring work to each other.
\n\nWhether you're struggling to grow an agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in my 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot, I've seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and I'd be happy to work with you. Learn more and sign up today at thoughtbot.com/agencyu. That's A-G-E-N-C-Y, the letter U.
\n\nCHAD: What has been the most surprising use of one of the grants?
\n\nMICHAEL: So B. Royal used the grant money to lock down a store in Assembly Square in Somerville. We kind of anticipated they might do that. So Zen Spa they improved their website. MustWatch actually really surprised us. So they went out and got a valuation of their company and then basically worked with a crowdfunding platform called Netcapital to raise more capital. They had a very specific plan, and they had disclosed that plan to us. I just didn't anticipate they would act so quickly on it. And based on the fact that we had given them a grant and all this mentoring and support, their valuation actually went up.
\n\nCHAD: That's a really smart use of the funds to propel that into a larger fundraise. That's really smart.
\n\nMICHAEL: I agree.
\n\nCHAD: So you do this in addition to a day job. [laughs]
\n\nMICHAEL: I mean, they're both day jobs; it's just, yeah.
\n\nCHAD: So you mentioned Colette Phillips, the person, [laughs] how about Colette Phillips Communications?
\n\nSo The All Inclusive Campaign it really is historic. The genesis of the campaign is that back in 2020, Colette and I applied for an RFP from the City of Boston; it was for a tourism recovery campaign. All of the major cities in the country got this grant money through regional tourism agencies, you know, like they're a special interest niche. And they went to the Feds, and they're like, "Look, we're suffering, travel is suffering, we need a grant," so all these grants went out.
\n\nThe City of Boston actually said, "Look, we want to focus on diverse tourism." So that was perfect for us. We applied, we got the grant. And we brought on Proverb, which is an incredible digital marketing agency and creative design agency, and the Greater Boston Convention & Visitors Bureau. It was the largest contract ever to go to a minority-owned company by the City of Boston, ever, and it was about 1.5 million.
\n\nCHAD: Which in and of itself for what the City of Boston probably spends on things [laughs] is a little ridiculous that that's the biggest one, but … get beyond that, I guess.
\n\nMICHAEL: It's insane. It's very upsetting. And it was a long time overdue. In this case, that contract or that RFP was really only supposed to last like one quarter. So all these regional tourism agencies they get their influx of money, a million dollars or a few 100,000. And then from there, they do the campaign, they move on. We are now three mayor's into this. We are four million dollars into this.
\n\nWe submitted the campaign to the city 60 days after they contracted with us; 84% of the contractors on the project are minority-owned companies. And in that 60 days before delivering the campaign, we actually never met in person. So we did this whole campaign virtually from the start. We came in under budget. We came in ahead of time. This is what happens sometimes when you let minority-owned companies take the lead.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's great. How do you do a campaign like this? I mean, this is why they came to you, the experts, but I think it's important that this message seem authentic and not pandering.
\n\nMICHAEL: Yeah, Colette is a visionary. She's been talking about diversity and inclusion for like 20 years. There's an article that came out, I think, in 1992 where she was talking about the importance of diversity in the business community. And now it's like microfilm; you can't even find it digitally online.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nMICHAEL: She's years ahead of her time. And she's constantly innovating, and All Inclusive was her idea, and she branded it. I think it was a long time coming, basically. This is a culmination of a message and campaign that she's been running her whole life.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I think that that's very powerful. And I think it comes across in the campaign. It seems authentic. I think it would be easy for it to not seem that way. And so yeah, it comes from that place of this was already a thing. It was already brewing. It wasn't just --
\n\nMICHAEL: Do you want to hear a story?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I'd love it.
\n\nMICHAEL: So, most of the media coverage for this campaign was exceptionally positive. There are a few reasons for that. We included all small, locally-owned businesses in the campaign. So you won't find celebrities, no athletes, or anything like that; we may do that later. We also invested...we took 200,000 of the contract, which this was not even supposed to be in there. We actually did ad buys with 19 different local newspapers. In some cases, these newspapers would have actually closed down if we had not done that, and that was just a byproduct of something we felt was important.
\n\nBut amidst all of that, she got invited to do an interview on Bloomberg on the local Bloomberg station. She's on the phone, and some guy who was on the other line, and I won't go into it too much, said, "You know, as a White man, I'm really offended. I don't feel represented in this campaign." [laughs] And she's like, "I've had enough of this," hangs up the phone. [laughs]
\n\nAnd this is another part of allyship I think is...naturally, you know, I said, "Look, I'm taking care of this." I wrote a letter to Bloomberg. I said, "This is unacceptable. You need to take him to task." I don't know if he still works there anymore. But that's kind of the role. You have a Black woman who's a pioneer. She just released a campaign. The first thing you should be saying to her is "Congratulations," instead of saying that, all you can tell her is about how being a White man is like, I don't know, a disadvantage? Which is crazy. There are tons of White people in the campaign. I'm White; I'm in the campaign.
\n\nCHAD: It's so foolish. I don't even want to have to explain it, but the campaign is literally called All Inclusive.
\n\nMICHAEL: [laughs] Exactly, exactly. It covers everybody, I mean, literally. And it's like, I don't know what you want from us.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. And it's not even...like you go to the site it talks about here's what you can do with families. Here's what you can do with kids, kid-friendly activities.
\n\nMICHAEL: This campaign was also research-based. So we spent 100,000 on research with this incredible company called Heart + Mind. They did a lot of research, and they did a lot of surveying. And the words that came back when describing Boston were unwelcoming, masculine; I think Tom Brady, Ben Affleck, crime, you know, just this kind of machismo unwelcoming environment. And it kind of confirmed some of the assumptions we had, but it was really surprising to see it in the data.
\n\nSo we said, "All right, this is what we're working with. We have to come up with a narrative that counters that because Boston is a majority-minority city, 23 neighborhoods, 60% of the population speaks two languages or more. That ethos is really not accurate. So hopefully, we're doing a good job.
\n\nCHAD: So if folks want to help, we already said GK Fund is a non-profit. It's coming up to tax season [laughs], so at the very least, even if you don't...hopefully, you care about the cause, but if you just want that tax write-off, I suppose that's another reason to donate.
\n\nMICHAEL: Absolutely.
\n\nCHAD: So where can folks do that if they want to learn more and donate?
\n\nMICHAEL: Visit www.thegkfund.org.
\n\nCHAD: And are you looking for help in other ways beyond monetary? How can people get involved?
\n\nMICHAEL: Absolutely. So we're looking for mentors so individuals who feel like they have experience or skills to lend to these companies, and we'll try to deploy these individuals in the best way possible. Obviously, we're looking for partnerships. So if you have a company that you feel has something to contribute or is willing to make a contribution, not monetarily but either with your products or with a discount, we also want to give that benefit to the companies as well. And there are a number of different ways.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. And if folks want to follow along with you or get in touch directly with you, how can they do that?
\n\nMICHAEL: You can feel free to follow me on Twitter. It's just @MichaelBenezra, all one word on Twitter. I got a lot of positive messages after the Boston Business Journal article came out and in LinkedIn as well.
\n\nCHAD: Great. And you can subscribe to the show and find notes and a full transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Michael, thanks so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.
\n\nMICHAEL: Yeah, thank you for having me.
\n\nCHAD: And thank you for listening. See you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Michael Benezra.
Sponsored By:
Christopher Nguyen is the CEO of Aitomatic, which provides knowledge-first AI for industrial automation.
\n\nChad talks with Christopher about why having a physical sciences background matters for this work, if we have artificial intelligence, why we still need people, and working in knowledge-first AI instead of knowledge-second, knowledge-third, or no knowledge at all. Data reflects the world.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Christopher Nguyen, CEO of Aitomatic, which provides knowledge-first AI for industrial automation. Christopher, thanks for joining me.
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: Thank you.
\n\nCHAD: So I was prepping for this interview, and I noticed something that jumped out at me that we have in common, and that is your first computer was the TI-99C/4A.
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: No kidding.
\n\nCHAD: And that was also my first computer.
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: Oh, okay.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: You got no storage, correct?
\n\nCHAD: No storage; everything was off of the solid-state disks. And I remember I was a little late to it. My parents actually got it for me. I think I was 9 or 10. And my parents got it for me at a garage sale. And so all I had was the manual and the basic manual that came with it. And because it had no storage, I needed to type in the programs that were in the back of that book from scratch, and there was no way to save them. So you would type them in -- [laughs]
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: Oh my God. Every single day the same code over and over again. And hopefully, you don't turn it off.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] Exactly. There definitely were times where it would just be on in my room because I didn't want to lose what I had spent all day typing in.
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: Yeah, yeah, I remember my proudest moment was my sister walked into the living room...and there was no monitor, and you connected it directly to the TV.
\n\nCHAD: To the TV, yeah.
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: And younger people may not even know the term character graphics, which is you pick in your book the character space, and then you put them together into a graphic image. And I painstakingly, on graph paper, created a car and converted it to hex and then poked it into these characters and put them together. And my sister walked in like, "Oh my God, you made a car."
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nCHAD: That was a good time. It was difficult back then. I feel like I learned a lot in an environment where I see people learning. Today it's a lot more of a complicated environment. They're much higher up the stack than we were back then. And, I don't know, I feel like I actually sort of had it easy.
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: Well, in many ways, that very abstraction to...you see jobs like to talk about higher software abstraction to make you more productive. I think it's absolutely that powerful. And Marc Andreessen, my friend, likes to talk about how software is eating the world. But it turns out there's one perspective where people have gone up the stack a little too far, too fast, and too much. We're still physical in the industry that I work in.
\n\nYou know, our previous company was acquired by Panasonic. And I've been working on industrial AI for the last four and a half years. And it's very hard for us to find people with the right physics or electro engineering background and the right science understanding to help automate and build some of these systems because everybody's in software now.
\n\nCHAD: Why does physical sciences background matter for this work?
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: Let me give you a couple of examples. One example is one of our customers is a very large global conglomerate doing marine navigation and marine sensors. And one of the products they do is fish finding so that amateurs like you and me would go hold one of these systems and shoot it down straight to the ocean. A sonar beam goes down, kind of like submarines. But hopefully, an image would come back. And so to build a system to convert all of that into something other than jumbled what they call echograms, maybe convert to a fish image, you have to build a lot of machine intelligence, AI, machine learning, and so on.
\n\nBut just to understand the data and make the right decisions about how to do that, you need to understand the physics of sound wave echoes in the ocean. If you can't do that and you got to work with another engineer to tell you how to do that, it really slows things down a lot. So knowing the equation but also having a physical intuition for how it all works can make or break the success of an engineer working on something like that.
\n\nAnother example is we worked on avionics. Don't blame me for this, but if you have had poor experience with Wi-Fi on a plane, we may be involved in one way or another, Panasonic Avionics.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: But the antenna array that sits on top of the plane to receive satellite signal and sends out a signal, so you can expect there's some kind of optimization involved. It's not just line of sight. If there's a cloud coming nearby, then there's some distortion, and there's some optimization needed to take place. Again, an understanding of...at least if you remember, if not an expert in college physics, about antenna radiation pattern and so on, which help tremendously a data scientist or an engineer working on that problem whereas somebody who's a pure computer scientist would struggle a lot and probably give up with that problem.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, this may be a little bit of a facetious question or leading question; I'm not sure which, but if we have artificial intelligence, why do we need people to do this stuff?
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: [laughs] Well, I have a broader, you know, I've thought about that a lot. And I'll answer it in the broad sense, but I think you can specialize it. The problem with machine learning, at least today and I really think for a very long time for the rest of the century at least, is that it is trained on data. And data is past examples. And when I say past, I include the present. In other words, whatever it is that our algorithms learn, they learn the world as it is.
\n\nNow, we're always trying to change the world in some way. We're always trying to change the world to what we wish it to be, not what it is. And so it's the humans that express that aspiration. I want my machine to behave better in some way. Or I want my algorithms not to have this built-in bias when it makes a decision that affects someone's life.
\n\nIf it's pure machine learning and data, it will indeed reflect all the decisions that have ever been made, and it'll have all those built-in biases. So there's a big topic there to unpack and who's responsible for doing what. But I think coming back to your question, we'll always need humans to express what it is that is the world that you want in the next minute, the next day, the next week, or the next 50 years.
\n\nCHAD: So let's talk more about the ethics or the biases that can be baked into AI. How do you prevent that at Aitomatic?
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: As I said, this is a big topic. But let me begin by saying that actually, most of us don't know what we mean when we say bias, or to put it more broadly, we don't agree on the meaning. The word bias in colloquial conversation always comes with a negative connotation on the one hand. On the other hand, in machine learning, bias is inherent. You cannot have machine work without bias. So clearly, those two words must mean something slightly different even though they reflect the same thing, the same underlying physics, if you will.
\n\nSo first, before people get into what they think is a very well-informed debate, they must first agree on a framework for terms that they're using. Now, of course, I can accommodate and say, okay, I think I know what you mean by that term. And so, let's take the colloquial meaning of bias. And when we say bias, we usually mean some built-in prejudice, it may be implicit, or it may be explicit that causes a human or machine to make a decision that discriminates against someone.
\n\nAnd here's the thing, we've got to think about intent versus impact. Is it okay for the effect to be quote, unquote, "biased" if I didn't intend it, or it doesn't matter what my intent was, and it's only the impact that matters? That's another dimension that people have to agree or even agree to disagree on before they start going into these circular arguments. But let's focus on, for now, let's say it's the impact that matters. It doesn't matter what the intent is, particularly because machines, as of present, there is no intent.
\n\nSo, for example, when the Uber vehicle a number of years ago hit and killed a bicyclist, there was no traceable intent, certainly not in the system design to cause that to happen. But yet it happened, and the person did die. So coming back to your question, I know that I've neglected the question because I'm unpacking a lot of things that otherwise an answer would make no sense, or it would not have the sense meant.
\n\nSo coming back, how do we prevent bias as an effect from happening in our system? And an answer that I would propose is to stop thinking about it in terms of point answers; in other words, it's not that...people say...well, myself I even said earlier it's in the data. Well, if it's in the data, does that absolve the people who build the algorithms? And if it's in the algorithms, does that absolve the people who use it? I had a conversation with some friends from Europe, and they said, "In America, you guys are so obsessed with blaming the user." Guns don't kill people; people kill people.
\n\nBut I think to answer your question in a very thoughtful manner; we must first accept the responsibility throughout the entire chain and agree on what it is the outcome that we want to have, at least effect. And then the responsibility falls on all chains, all parts of the chain. And one day, it may be, hey, you got to tune the algorithm a certain way. Another day may be, hey, collect this kind of data.
\n\nAnd another day, it might be make sure that when you finally help with the decision, that you tweak it a certain way to affect the outcome that you want. I think what I've described is the most intellectually honest statement. And somebody listening to this is going to have a perspective that disagrees vehemently with one of the things I just said because they don't want that responsibility.
\n\nCHAD: I like it, though, because it recognizes that we're creating it. It may be a tool, and tools can be used for anything. But as the creators of that tool, we do have responsibility for...well, I think we have responsibility for what that is going to do, and if not us, then who?
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: That's right. Yeah. But if you follow the debate, you will find that there are absolutists who say, "That's not my problem. That's the user, or the decision-maker, or the data provider. But my algorithms I have to optimize in this way, and it's going to output exactly what the data told it to. The rest is your problem."
\n\nCHAD: So it strikes me in hearing you describe what's involved, especially at the state that machine learning is at now; it probably varies or what you are going to do specifically varies based on what you're trying to achieve. And maybe even the industry that it's in like avionics and what you need to do there may be different than energy.
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: Yep, or more broadly, physical industries versus the plane falls out of the air, or a car hits somebody, somebody actually dies. If you get a particular algorithm wrong at Google, maybe you click on the wrong ad. So I really advocate thinking about the impact and not just the basic algorithms.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, so tell me more about the actual product or services that Aitomatic provides and also who the customers are.
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: I think what we discussed is quite relevant to that. I think it does lead in a very real perspective directly into that. We do what's called knowledge-first AI. And that knowledge-first as opposed to knowledge-second and knowledge-third or no knowledge at all, there are very strong schools of thought that say, "With sufficient data, we can create AI to do everything." Data is reflecting the world. As I mentioned, it's in the past as it is, not as what we want it to be.
\n\nWhen you apply it to some of the concrete things that we do, let's take a use case like predictive maintenance of equipment, you want to be able to save cost and even to save lives. You want to replace things, service things before they actually fail. Failure is very costly. It's far more costly than the equipment itself. Today, the state of the art is preventive maintenance, not predictive. Preventive means, let’s just every six months, every one year replace all the lights because it's too costly to replace them one by one when they fail.
\n\nLots of industries today still do what's called reactive maintenance, you know, fix it when it fails. So predictive maintenance is the state of the art. The challenge is how do you get data and train enough machine intelligence to essentially predict? And the prediction precisely means the following: can you tell me with some probability that this compressor for this HVAC system, this air conditioning system may fail within the next month? And it turns out machine learning cannot do that.
\n\nCHAD: Oh, that's the twist.
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: Exactly. [laughter] And I know a lot of people listening are going to sit up and say, "Christopher doesn't know what the hell he's talking about."
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: But I really know. I really know what the hell I'm talking about because we've been part of an industrial giant. I'll tell you what machine learning can do and what it cannot do. What it can do is with the data that's available...the main punch line, the main reason here is that there are not enough past examples of actual failures of certain types.
\n\nThere's a lot of data. We're swimming in data, but we're not actually swimming in cleanly recorded failures that are well classified. And machine learning is about learning from past examples, except today, algorithms need a lot of past examples, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or even millions of past examples, in order for it to discover those repeating patterns.
\n\nSo we have a lot of data at places like Panasonic, Samsung, Intel, GE, all the physical industries, but these are just sensor data that's recording mostly normal operation. When a failure happens, that tends to be rare. Hopefully, failures are rare, and then they're very specific. So it turns out that what's called the labeled data is insufficient for machine learning.
\n\nSo what machine learning can do is do what's called anomaly detection. And that is look at all the normal patterns, and then when something abnormal appears on the horizon to say, "Hey, something is weird. I haven't seen this before." But it cannot identify what it is, which is only half of predictive maintenance because you have to identify what the problem is so you can replace that compressor or that filter. And it turns out humans are very good. Human experts are very good at that second part.
\n\nThe first improvement might be to say let's get machine learning to detect anomalies and then let's get human experts to actually do fault prediction. And after you do this for a while, which is what we did at Panasonic in the last three, four years across the global AI units, we said, "Well, wait a minute. Why are we making these very expensive?" Human experts do this if we can somehow codify their domain expertise. And so that's what Aitomatic is. We have developed a bunch of techniques, algorithms, and systems that run as SaaS software to help people codify their domain expertise, combine it with machine learning, and then deploy the whole thing as a system.
\n\nCHAD: The codified expertise, there's a word for that, right?
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: Probably you're referring to expert systems.
\n\nCHAD: Yes. Yes.
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: Yeah. Expert systems is one way to codify domain expertise. At the very basic level, you and I wrote actual BASIC programs before. You can think of that as codifying your human knowledge. You're telling the computer exactly what to do. So expert systems of the past is one way to do so. But what I'm referring to is a more evolved and more advanced perspective on that, which is how do you codify it in such a way that you can seamlessly combine with machine learning?
\n\nExpert systems and machine learning act like two islands that don't meet. But how do you do it in such a way that you can codify human knowledge and then benefit as more data comes in, absolutely move into this idea of asymptotically this world where data tells you everything? Which it never will. And so the way we do that, the naive way, as I mentioned, is simply to just write it down as a bunch of rules. And the problem is rules conflict with each other.
\n\nWe, humans, work on heuristics. Whatever it is you tell me to do, you could be an expert, and you start teaching me, and you say, "Okay, so here are the rules." And then once I learn the rules, you say, "Well, and there are some exceptions." [laughs] And then, can you tell me all the exceptions? No, you can't. You have to use judgment. Okay, well, what is that? So the way we codify it is you can think of that evolution. I'll give you one concrete example from the machine learning perspective so people that are machine learning experts can see how we do things that are different. There's something in the machine learning process called the loss function. Have you heard of that term?
\n\nCHAD: No. Yeah.
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: So it's very simple. Training, which I'm sure everybody has heard, is really about how do I tweak the parameters inside the algorithm so that eventually, it gives the correct answer? So this process is repeated millions of times or hundreds of thousands of times. But let's say the first time, it gives you a random answer, but you know what the right answer should be. These are training examples.
\n\nSo you compute an error. If you output a five and the answer is actually six, so I say, "Oh, you're off by one, positive one," and so on. So there's a loss function, and in this case, it's simply the subtraction of one. And then that signal, that number one, is somehow fed back into the training system that says, "Well, you were close, but you're off by one." And the next time, maybe you're off by 0.5, next time maybe you're off by -2, and so on and so forth. That value is computable, what's called a loss function. That's machine learning because you have all these examples.
\n\nWell, human knowledge can be applied as a loss function too. A simple example is that you don't have all the data examples, but you have a physical equation. If you throw a ball in the air, it follows a parabolic pattern, and we can model that exactly, an elliptic equation. That is a way to produce the correct answer, but there's no resistance there. And so, we can apply that function back as a loss function to encode that human knowledge.
\n\nOf course, things are not always as simple as a parabolic equation. But a human expert can say, "The temperature on this can never exceed 23. If it exceeds 23, life is going to end as we know it because you're going to have a disaster." You can put into the loss function an equation that says if your predictor is greater than 23, give it a very high loss. Give it a very strong signal that this cannot be. And so your machine learning function being trained can get that signal coming back and adjust the parameters appropriately. So that's just one example of how we codify human knowledge in a way that is more than just expert systems.
\n\nCHAD: That's really cool. Now, is there a way, once you have the system up and running and it is making decisions, to then feedback into that cycle and improve the model itself?
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: Oh, absolutely, yeah. I think there's a parallel to what I say during training to also while it's in production, both in real-time, meaning one example at a time, as well as in batch after you've done a bunch of these. In fact, the first successful predictive maintenance system we deployed when we were part of Panasonic employs a human being that they feedback at.
\n\nSo our system would try to learn as much as it can and then try to predict the probability of failure of some piece of equipment. And the human being at the other end would say, "Okay, yeah, that looks reasonable." But a lot of times, they would say, "Clearly wrong. Look at this sensor over here. The pressure is high, and you didn't take that into account." So that's a process that we use both to certainly improve the output itself but also the feedback to improve our predictive AI.
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\n\nCHAD: So on the customer side, whether you can share specific customers or not, what kinds of companies are your customers?
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: So I've mentioned in passing a number, so Panasonic is one of our customers. When I say Panasonic, Panasonic is a global giant, so it's run as individual companies. So, for example, avionics automotive coaching, how a fish gets from the ocean to your table, Panasonic has a big market share in making sure that everywhere in the chain that fish is refrigerated. So it's called the cold supply chain or cold chain. Supermarkets their refrigeration systems keep our food fresh, and if that goes down in an unplanned manner, then they lose entire days or weeks of sales.
\n\nI mentioned the example of Furuno, F-U-R-U-N-O. If you go to some marina, say Half Moon Bay, California, you would see on the masts most of the navigation equipment is a Furuno, the white and blue logo. So we help them with those systems and fish finding systems. As well as off the coast of Japan, there's a practice called fixed-net fishing. What that is is miles and miles of netting. And large schools of fish would swim from different gates, A into B. And once they get to B, it's set in such a way that they cannot go back to A. But it's very large that they feel like they're swimming in the ocean still and eventually to trap C.
\n\nAnd so Furuno is working on techniques to both detect what kind of fish is flowing through as well as actually count or estimate the number so the fishermen can determine exactly when to go and collect their catch. So I can go on. There are lots of these really interesting physics-related and physical use cases.
\n\nCHAD: So is Aitomatic actually spun off from Panasonic?
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: Spin-off, I think legally speaking, that is not the correct term because we're independent. Panasonic does not own shares. But in terms of our working relationship as customer and vendor, it's as good as it ever was.
\n\nCHAD: What went into that decision-making process to do that?
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: To do the so-called spin-off?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah.
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: Lots of things.
\n\nCHAD: I'm sure it was a complicated decision. [laughs]
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: Like we used to say at Google, to decide where to put a data center, lots of things have to intersect just the right way, including the alignment of the stars. In our case, it's a number of things. Number one, the business model just, as I said, at a very high level, it makes a lot of sense for us to be an independent company otherwise inside a...if we're a small unit inside a parent company, the business incentives are very different from if you're a startup, that's one. And the change is positive for both sides.
\n\nNumber two, in terms of venture capital, as you know, today, once you're an independent company, you can access a very large amount of scale in such a way that even a global giant doesn't have the same model to fund. Number three, certainly, the scope of the business we want to be able to apply...everything that I talk to you here is actually an open-source project.
\n\nWe have something called human-first AI rather than just knowledge-first, and so being able to put it out into the open-source and being able to have other people contribute to it is much easier as an independent startup than if it's a business unit. And then finally, of course, aspirations, myself and the rest of the team, we can move a lot faster. People are more passionate about the ownership of what they do. It's a much better setup as an independent company.
\n\nCHAD: Were there things from Panasonic, either in culture or the way that the business works, that even though you had the opportunity to be independent, you said, "Hey, that was pretty good. Let's keep that going"?
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: Well, I can comment on the culture of Panasonic itself. It's something that I was surprised by. This is 100 years old. The anniversary was in 2018. I gave a talk in Tokyo. So a 100-year old conglomerate. Japan might seem very stodgy, and, sorry to say, in many ways, it is. But I was very impressed. And I say this as a headline in cocktail conversation. I say the culture of engineering at Panasonic is far more like the Google that I knew than it is different; in other words, very little empire-building. People are very engineering-driven. There are a lot of cordial discussions and so on when people go into a meeting. I was very impressed by this.
\n\nThe Japanese engineers in Panasonic were always really well prepared. By the time they got to the meeting, even though they are in this context our customers, they will come with a slide deck like 30 slides talking through the entire use case. And they thought about this, they thought about that. And so I'm sitting there just absorbing it, just learning the whole thing. I really enjoyed that part of being part of Panasonic. And many of those folks are now lifelong friends of mine.
\n\nCHAD: And so that's something that you've tried to maintain, that engineering-focused culture and great place.
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: Well, when we were acquired by Panasonic, both Tsuga-san, the CEO, and Miyabe-san, the CTO, said the following, he said, "We want you to infect Panasonic, not the other way around." [laughs] From their perspective, we had this Silicon Valley setup. And they want this innovation, a fresh startup, not just the algorithms but also the culture. And they were true to their word. We kept an office, our own unit, kept their office in Downtown Mountain View. And folks were sent in to pick up our ways and means. What I enjoyed, the part that I just shared with you, is what I didn't expect to learn but what I did learn in retrospect.
\n\nCHAD: As you set out on everything you want to achieve, what are you worried about? What do you think the biggest hurdles are going to be that you need to overcome to make a successful business, successful product?
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: Well, I've done this multiple times. So people like to say, "You've seen this movie before," but of course, every movie is told differently, and the scenes are different, the actors are different, and so on. Of course, the times are different. So concretely, our immediate next hurdle you have to have proof points along the way. So we've got good revenues already. As a startup less than one-year-old, we have unusually good revenues but mainly because of our deep relationships in this particular industry.
\n\nThe next concrete proof point is a series of things, metrics that says we have a good product-market fit. And, of course, product-market fit means more than just a great product idea. It's a great product idea that is executed in a way that the market wants it in the next quarter, not ten years from now. So product-market fit is that iteration, and we're quite fortunate to have already customers what we call design partners that we work with. So hearing from that diverse set is pretty good confidence that if they want it, then other people will want it as well.
\n\nAnd then after that, certainly after in timing but in the doing now, is scaling our sales efforts, our sales volume beyond just the founder-led volume that we currently have, so building the sales team and so on. But these are things that I will say are generally understood. But it does have to still be; you just got to sweat it. You got to do it. It doesn't happen automatically. I think the much bigger challenge that I see, and maybe it's an opportunity depending on how you think about it, is I'll call it a cultural barrier. Silicon Valley, in particular, the academic side of us...and you may know I used to be a professor, so when I say academic, I'm talking about myself as well. So any criticism is self-directed.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: We tend to be purists. The purism of today, if I can use that term, is data. And so, whenever I talk about knowledge-first AI, it offends the sensibilities of some people. They say, "You mean you're going back to expert systems. You mean you are not going to be extolling the virtues of machine learning and so on." And I have to explain data is nice if you have it, but 90% of the world doesn't have the data. And you do need to come up with these new techniques to combine human knowledge with machine learning.
\n\nWe look forward to being the Vanguard of that revolution, if you will, that say maybe it's a step backward. I think of it as a step forward of really harmoniously combining human knowledge and machine data to build what we call AI systems, these powerful systems that we're purporting to build. And that's almost directly at odds with the school of thought where people say, "Eventually, we'll have all the data." [laughs] And maybe, as you stated at the beginning, we don't need humans anymore. I will fight that battle.
\n\nCHAD: The customers that you talked about, a lot of them seem to be pretty big enterprises. So as you talk about scaling sales beyond the founder-led sales that you're doing now, are you continuing to sell to enterprises? Or do you ultimately envision the product being accessible to any company?
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: Well, I would say both. But I say that in a very careful sense because it's very important building businesses with a focus. And so let me break down what I mean by both, not just from some ambitious thing, you know, A and B. We will focus on enterprise as a matter of business. And the reason for that is A, that's where the money is but B, but more importantly, it's also where the readiness is. We've gone through...it's amazing. It's been a decade since that first New York Times, what I call the cats’ paper about the Google Brain Project.
\n\nWe've gone through a decade of the hype and everything, but this vast physical industry, the industrial of the world, is ready. When I say ready, it means that people are now sophisticated. They don't look at it with wide eyes and say, "Please sprinkle a little bit of AI on my system." So they have teams, and they can benefit from what we do at the scale of what I've just described. But the reason I say both is because, quite happily, it is an open-source project.
\n\nOur roadmap is designed with our design partners, but once it's out there, the system can be contributed to by others. The nature of open source is such that people tend to use it more than contribute. That's fine. So I think a lot of the smaller companies and smaller teams, once they overcome this cultural barrier of applying knowledge as opposed to pure data, I think they can really take advantage of our technology.
\n\nCHAD: I'm glad you segued there because I was going to bring us there, too, which is that that open source that you've made available was it ever a question whether you could build a business where you were also open-sourcing the software behind it?
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: It was absolutely a question 10 years ago. The industry has evolved. And now you and I talked about the TI-99/4A. I was already writing what's called public domain software before the term open source. Ten years ago, CIOs would say, "Why would I do away with the relationship with a big company like a Microsoft or an Oracle in favor of this unreliable, unknown open source?" It turns out, as we now look back, it was nothing to do with the business model; it was the immaturity of open source.
\n\nToday, it is the opposite. Today, people don't worry about the lock-in with a vendor whose source code that they don't have. But I think equally important, source code is no longer a competitive advantage. Let me say that again. Source code is no longer that intellectual property. CIOs today want to be able to have the peace of mind that if some company locks them out or the company becomes defunct, that the engineers still have access to that source code so that they can build it. But that is not the real value.
\n\nAmazon, Microsoft Azure, and GCP, Google have proven that people are very willing to pay for some experts to run operationally these systems so that they can concentrate on what they do best. So every day today, you know, every month, we're sending checks to AWS. They're running something that my team can easily run but probably at a much higher cost. But even at cost parity, I would like my team members to be focused on knowledge-first AI rather than the running of an email system or the running of some compute.
\n\nSo likewise, the value that our customers get from us is not the source code. But they're very willing for us to run this big industrial AI system so that they can focus on the actual work of codifying their expert knowledge. And by the way, I probably gave too long an answer to that. Another way is simply to look at the public market; there are very well rewarded companies that are entirely open source.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. Well, thank you. That was great. Thank you for stopping by and sharing with me. I really appreciate it. If folks want to find out more about Aitomatic or get in touch with you or follow along, where are all the places that they can do that?
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: I think the website, aitomatic.com And it's just like automatic, except that it starts with A-I-. So I think the website is a great place to start to contact us.
\n\nCHAD: Wonderful. Thank you again.
\n\nCHRISTOPHER: Awesome. Thank you.
\n\nCHAD: You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening, and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Christopher Nguyen .
Sponsored By:
Dr. Alan Cowen is the Executive Director of The Hume Initiative, a non-profit dedicated to the responsible advancement of AI with empathy, and CEO of Hume AI, an AI research lab and empathetic AI company that is hoping to pave the way for AI that improves our emotional well-being.
\n\nChad talks with Alan about forming clear ethical guidelines around how this technology should be used because there is a problem in that the public is skeptical about whether technology is used for good or bad. The Hume Initiative is intended to lay out what concrete use cases will be and what use cases shouldn't be supported. Hume AI is built for developers to construct empathic abilities into their applications.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Dr. Alan Cowen, the Executive Director of The Hume Initiative, a non-profit dedicated to the responsible advancement of AI with empathy, and CEO of Hume AI, an AI research lab and empathetic AI company. Alan, thank you for joining me.
\n\nDR. COWEN: Thanks for having me on.
\n\nCHAD: That's a lot of words in that introduction. I'm glad I got through it in one take. Let's take a step back a little bit and talk about the two different things, The Hume Initiative and Hume AI. And what came first?
\n\nDR. COWEN: So they were conceptualized at the same time. Practically speaking, Hume AI was started first only because it currently is the sole supporter of The Hume Initiative. But they were both conceptualized as this way to adjust two of the main problems that people have faced bringing empathic abilities to technology. Technology needs to have empathic abilities. If AI is going to get smart enough to make decisions on our behalf, it should understand whether those decisions are good or bad for our well-being. And a big part of that is understanding people's emotions because emotions are really what determine our well-being.
\n\nThe Hume Initiative addresses one of the challenges, which is the formation of clear ethical guidelines around how this technology should be used. And it's not because the companies pursuing this have bad intents; that's not the point at all. The problem is that the public is probably justifiably skeptical of whether this technology will be used for them or against them. And The Hume Initiative is intended as a way of laying out what the concrete use cases will be and what use cases shouldn't be supported.
\n\nHume AI is introducing solutions to the problem of how we build empathic AI algorithms. And the challenge there has been the data. So there have been a lot of attempts at building empathic AI or emotion AI, whatever you call it, basically ways of reading facial expression, emotion in the voice, and language. And there's been a few challenges, but most of them come down to the fact that the data tends to be based on outdated theories of emotion and/or it tends to be based on people's perceptual ratings of images largely from the internet or videos that are collected in more of an observational way without experimental control.
\n\nAnd within those perceptual judgments, you see gender biases, sometimes racial biases, biases by what people are wearing, whether they're wearing sunglasses, for example, because people with sunglasses for some reason are perceived as being proud. [laughter] And the algorithms will always label people with sunglasses as being proud if you're training the algorithm that way.
\n\nWhat you need basically is some way to control for people's identity, what they're wearing, get people's own self-reports as to what they're feeling or what they're expressing, and do it in a way that's somewhat randomized so that different people express a wide range of emotional behaviors in a wide range of contexts. And the contexts are somewhat randomized. So that's what we're doing with Hume AI is we're gathering that data, and it requires large-scale experiments to be run around the world.
\n\nCHAD: In terms of the actual product that Hume AI is going to do, is it a standalone product? Or is it something that people building products will use?
\n\nDR. COWEN: It's a developer product. It's built for developers to build empathic abilities into their applications. And so we are about to launch a developer portal, and we have a waitlist on our website on hume.ai for that. In the meantime, we've been licensing out the models that we're training and the data that we're using to train those models, which I actually kind of view as somewhat interchangeable. Models are basically descriptions of data. Some people have the resources to train those models on-premise; some people don't.
\n\nBut we're providing the solution to any developer who wants to build the ability to understand, for example, vocal expression into, say, a digital assistant. So can the digital assistant understand when you're frustrated and be able to change its response based on that information? And even potentially update the actual network, the neural network that's being used to generate that response, actually, backpropagate the fact that this was an unsatisfactory response and make the algorithm better. Is this something that you could use for health tech?
\n\nSo people are building out telehealth solutions that incorporate AI in various ways, one of which is can we get an objective classification of emotional behavior that can be used to help triage patients, send them to the right place, put them in touch with the right help? Can it be used to sub-diagnose disorders, diagnose disorders with more statistical power? Because you can incorporate more data and develop better treatments for those disorders, and that can be done in a wide range of contexts.
\n\nCHAD: So you mentioned training AI models. I don't want to make the assumption that everyone knows what that means or looks like. Maybe if we could take a step back, if you don't mind, talk about what that maybe traditionally looks like and how Hume is actually different.
\n\nDR. COWEN: Yeah, totally. When it comes to empathic AI, so this is an area where you're trying to train an algorithm to measure facial movements insofar as they have distinct meanings or measure inflections of the voice while people are speaking to understand the non-verbal indications of emotion in the voice. When you are training an algorithm to do that, you're taking in images, video, audio, and you're predicting people as attributions of emotion to themselves or to others and what people are feeling or what people say they're expressing or what other people say they hear in an expression. You need a lot of data for that.
\n\nTraditionally, people have used smaller datasets and assumed that emotion can be reduced to a few categories. That's been one solution to this problem. And so basically, you'll have people pose facial expressions of anger, fear, happiness, sadness, disgust, and surprise, which are called the basic six emotions. And that was introduced by Paul Ekman in the 1970s. And there are whole datasets of people posing those six expressions or perhaps combinations of them. And usually, those facial expressions are front-lit and front-facing and meet certain constraints.
\n\nAnd when you train a model on that data, it doesn't tend to generalize very well to naturalistic expressions that you encounter from day-to-day for a lot of different reasons; one is that the six basic emotions only capture about 30% of what people perceive in an expression. Another is that people in everyday situations have a wide range of lighting conditions, viewpoints, et cetera. And there's more diversity in age, gender than you see in these datasets and in ethnicity and so forth. And so, these algorithms don't generalize.
\n\nAnother approach is to get ratings of data from the internet. So there, you're not creating the dataset for this specific purpose. You're just scraping as many facial expressions or recordings of voices as you possibly can, maybe from YouTube. That's one way to scale up. That's one way to capture a much greater variety of naturalistic expressions. But then you're gathering ratings of these images. And those ratings are influenced not just by what somebody is expressing but also by somebody's gender, ethnicity, age, and what they're wearing, and so forth.
\n\nCHAD: Well, in those scenarios, a person has also classified the image, to begin with, right?
\n\nDR. COWEN: Yeah.
\n\nCHAD: So someone is labeling that image as angry, for example.
\n\nDR. COWEN: So typically, you're scraping a bunch of videos. You're giving them to raters typically from one country. And those raters are categorizing those images based on what they perceive to be the expression, and there are a lot of influences on that. If somebody is wearing a sporting outfit, and this is a hard bit of context to cut out, you can generally infer this person is likely to be expressing triumph or disappointments or all the different things people express when they're playing sports. And it's very different if somebody's wearing a suit. And so, these different biases seep into the algorithm.
\n\nWe did train probably the best version of this kind of algorithm when I was at Google. And we used it to study people's expressions in other videos from around the world, mostly home videos. And we found that people form expressions in characteristic contexts around the world. And the relationship between context and expression was largely preserved. We were looking at 16 facial expressions we were able to label accurately. And this was probably with the best version of an algorithm trained in this way. But we still only captured about half of the information people take away from expressions because we had to throw away a lot of the predictions due to these biases. So that's how algorithms are traditionally trained.
\n\nAnother way that you could go about it is by training a large model, like a large language model, if you're looking at an emotional language and query it in a special way. So let's say you take a GPT-3 kind of model, and you say, "Hey, what are the emotions associated with this sentence?" And there, you see exactly the same kind of biases as you'd see in perceptual ratings because typically, it's saying what is likely to be in that data. So it might say, "Well, pigeons are disgusting, and doves are beautiful," or something like that. And that's the kind of bias we don't care about. But you can imagine there are a lot of biases that we do care about in that data too. [laughs]
\n\nAnd so, what's needed is experimental control. And I think this is actually when it comes to the things we really care about, something that people should consider more often in machine learning. What are the confounds that exist in the data that you're training an algorithm on? And if you really care about those confounds and you want to be scientific about it, about removing them, what's the solution? Well, the solution is to somehow randomize what somebody is expressing, for example. And that's what we do at Hume.
\n\nWe actually gather data with people reacting, for example, to very strongly evocative stimuli, which could be images, videos, paintings, et cetera, music. And we have balanced the set of stimuli in a way that makes it richly evocative of as many emotions as possible. And then what somebody is likely to be experiencing in a given setting is randomized relative to who they are since they see a random set of these stimuli or they undergo a random set of tasks.
\n\nAnd so, to the extent possible, we've removed some of the relationships between ethnicity, gender, age, and what somebody is experiencing, or what they're expressing. And so we do this in a lot of different ways. And one thing you do is you can train on basically what is the stimulus that somebody was looking at instead of training on somebody's perception of an expression.
\n\nCHAD: Hopefully, talking through this a little bit has helped people, one, I guess, understand why this is difficult. And that's where the need for a product by a company that specializes in it is important because it would be pretty difficult for a company just getting started to be able to do this in a scientifically controlled way. And in a sense, it's sort of like pooling the resources behind one product to do it well, and that can really do it well. You recently raised money pre-seed from investors. How obvious was the need to them, and how easy or hard was it for you to raise money?
\n\nDR. COWEN: I had been basically in this world for a long time before I started Hume AI and The Hume Initiative. So during grad school, while I was publishing a lot of this science that was showing people's expressions were much more nuanced than a lot of these datasets and algorithms had considered before, I was getting inbounds from tech companies. And so, I worked a little bit with some startups. I worked with Facebook. I worked with Google. And I had seen this problem from a lot of different perspectives and viewpoints already.
\n\nThe need for data was very clear. The need for algorithms was clear because people literally had reached out to me and asked, "What are the best algorithms?" And I had to say, "Look, there are a few things, but all of them have problems. And they're mostly focused on the face, and you won't see much for the voice. And you won't see much for language." And what I had trained at Google was not something that was publicly available for facial expression. What is available for language probably the best one is another dataset that I helped put together at Google and algorithms trained on that called the GoEmotions dataset, which is used by Hugging Faces emotional language algorithm.
\n\nAnd so I knew that there was this need, and a lot of people were looking for this kind of data, and so that's where it started. So talking to investors, it wasn't too hard to show them all the evidence that there was a need for this, a big market. And we raised a $5 million pre-seed. What we have spent a lot of that so far is in data collection. And that's made a huge difference in training algorithms for facial expression, voice, language, and so forth. And then what turns out to be more of a challenge is delivering those algorithms to people. And we're actually building a platform, an API platform, for that that will be really helpful in getting people started.
\n\nCHAD: As you took on investors who, you know, they're trying to build a business. They want to create a business that gives them a return. And as you move towards a product in the marketplace, what are the things that you've encountered that are the biggest concerns in terms of the success?
\n\nDR. COWEN: There's a scientific and sort of almost educational challenge. I think people have been fixated on a few ideas about emotion for a long time; these really sticky ideas like you can reduce emotion to six categories or two dimensions. So even when people take these really nuanced and accurate models that we've trained to distinguish 28 different kinds of facial expression, much broader array of facial expressions or 24 different kinds of vocal expression in vocal utterances like laughs, and cries, and screams, and sighs, and 16 different kinds of speech prosody, typically, people will take these, and they'll take out a few emotions, and they say, "Okay, well, this prediction is for the anger prediction, and that's the one I'm interested in."
\n\nThe challenge is in conceptualizing the phenomenon people are interested in classifying with these models and how they can relate that to what the model is predicting because typically, what constitutes anger is very different from one situation to another. Someone who's angry, who is maybe playing a sport, is going to be much more vocal about it than if you're on a customer service call.
\n\nAnd that context is really important in going from an embedding that's general for different expressions, that can recognize 16 different emotional intonations in speech and fine-tuning it for that specific context. And I think that process can be difficult to understand if you're not fluent in the language of emotion science and particularly where it's gone over the last few years.
\n\nAnd so part of what we're doing now is actually setting up ways to visualize the outputs of our models really smoothly and with any data so that people can navigate their data and actually see, okay, well, what this model is saying is an embedding of anger for what I'm interested in. Maybe it's customer service calls. Actually, it's a combination of a little bit of contempt and a little bit of disappointment in what people have labeled these expressions with. And now I can take this embedding, and I understand how to use it better.
\n\nCHAD: Do you anticipate or hope for, and maybe those are the same, and maybe they're different, that you're going to have a few big customers or lots of small customers or something in between?
\n\nDR. COWEN: We hope lots of small customers. [laughs] I want to get this into as many people's hands as possible. A lot of people are doing really innovative things in the startup world. There's also a huge need in big applications like digital assistants that are mostly in the hands of a few companies basically. We want to have an impact there as well.
\n\nThe difference, of course, will be the manner in which these solutions are delivered. The ease of providing people with APIs, subscribing to a pay-as-you-go model I think is really attractive for startups. And so that's how we're accessing that market. On the other hand, we do already have some big customers who are licensing the data or the models themselves. And I anticipate there will be a lot of that going forward as well.
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\n\nCHAD: You said you've built up to this point. But how long have you been working at it so far in terms of creating the actual product that will go to market soon?
\n\nDR. COWEN: The company is only a year old. And we actually just had our first year anniversary.
\n\nCHAD: Congratulations.
\n\nDR. COWEN: [laughs] Thank you. Thank you. We are just now about to launch our platform, which I think is going to be our main product going forward. We're also running machine learning competitions in the research community, which there will be involvement from lots of tech companies and researchers around the world. So in many ways, we're still just getting started.
\n\nBut we have already what I think are the best models for understanding facial expression, the best models for understanding vocal utterances or what we call vocal bursts, which is actually different than understanding speech prosody or emotional intonation and language more generally. And we need separate models for that. We have both of probably the best models for those two modalities and are building what we think will be the best model for emotional language as well. And so we have solutions. Part of the product is delivering them, and that's what we're launching now. So we're at the beginning of that.
\n\nCHAD: So has to get to this point taken longer than you were anticipating, the time you were anticipating or shorter? Did it go faster?
\n\nDR. COWEN: I think my estimates for actually training these models and beating the state of the art were about on point. [chuckles] I mean, when we got started, I was ready to start running these experiments pretty quickly. So I designed all the experiments myself and started running them around the world, recruiting participants through labs, through consulting agencies, through crowdsourcing websites, a lot of different ways.
\n\nThere were a few challenges along the way, like figuring out how you could adjust the consent form in ways that weren't really relevant to ethics. And we had IRB approval. We had a very robust consent process for people to understand how their data was going to be used but were relevant to figuring out how you come up with language that is consistent with data privacy laws and each individual jurisdiction where you're running data collection. That took a little longer than I thought. [laughs]
\n\nBut suffice to say, we had the data. We had the models pretty quickly. I was able to recruit some of the top AI researchers in this space pretty quickly. We hit the ground running. We were able to take the data and train state-of-the-art models pretty fast. What's taking longer is getting the models into people's hands in two ways. I mean, negotiating enterprise contracts is always a struggle that many people are aware of. And then figuring out we needed to have a really user-friendly platform basically to deliver the models through APIs, and that's taking a little bit longer than anticipated.
\n\nCHAD: So The Hume Initiative is a group of people that have come together and established some guidelines that companies sign on to in terms of what their solutions are going to take into account and do and not do. Do I have that right?
\n\nDR. COWEN: Yeah. So we put together a separate non-profit. And we brought together some of the leading AI researchers, ethicists, with emotion scientists, and cyber law experts to this very unique composition of domain knowledge to develop what are really the first concrete ethical guidelines for empathic AI. Let's say for this use case; we support it if you meet these requirements. These are our recommendations. And for this use case, we don't support it. And we actually get really concrete.
\n\nI think generally, with AI principles efforts or AI ethics efforts, people focus on the broad principles and left it to, I don't know, it's unclear often who is going to decide whether a use case is admissible or not under these principles. Because let's say they're codified into law, then it'll end up being a judge who doesn't necessarily have any knowledge of AI or emotion science or any of these things to say this is a use case that's consistent with these principles or not. We wanted to avoid that.
\n\nAnd I think particularly; I think that the public is skeptical too of broader principles where they don't really know whether a given use of their data is compliant with those principles or not. I mean, sometimes it's easier. There are really good policies regarding surveillance that I think most of the big tech companies ascribe to where they say they won't be using your data in ways that you expect to have privacy and you actually don't. So I think there are pretty good principles there.
\n\nThere haven't really been good principles or concrete guidelines for what people might consider manipulative. And I think some technology that incorporates cues of emotion can be deemed manipulative in a sense. In the sense that you might not want to be sucked into a comment thread because something really provocative was shown to you after clicking on a notification that was unrelated to that. But the algorithm may have figured out this is a way to keep you in the app. [laughs] So that can be considered manipulative in some kind of way.
\n\nI mean, it's bad if the person is vulnerable at that time. If the algorithm is able to read cues of your emotions and maybe through interoperability across different applications or because it knows it or has this information, this data already, it can say this is a person who is vulnerable right now to being provoked because they're in a bad mood. Maybe I can see that they just ordered food, and it's late, and it was canceled, whatever is. It can be any number of things. Or the way that this person queried a digital assistant or a search engine revealed this kind of emotional state. We don't want the algorithm to use that to get us to do something we otherwise wouldn't want to do
\n\nSo the principles we've set up around that are really important. Whenever somebody's emotional behaviors are involved or cues to their emotional state, they should be used to make sure that the algorithm is not using these cues against somebody or using them as a means to an end. What they should be used to do is make sure the algorithm is improving our emotions or improving our emotional state over time on average across many different people so that we're less frustrated on average over time, and we have more instances where we're satisfied, or content, or happy, or all inspired or whatever your measures or indicators of well-being you have present through these behaviors might be.
\n\nThe algorithm should be using these behaviors to enhance your well-being fundamentally. And wherever they're entering into an algorithm, we should be privy to how the algorithm is using them. And so that's essentially what the principles codify and make very concrete, and they say, "In this use case, this is how you can make sure this is the case, you know, health and wellness, digital assistants, photo-taking, arts and culture applications, film, animation." There are all these different applications of empathic AI.
\n\nSo it's a very broadly applicable thing because it applies to any text, any video with people in it, any audio where you hear people's voices. This is just a part of the data that's untapped relatively, or to the extent that it's tapped by algorithms today; it's done in a way that we don't really see, or maybe the developers don't even realize. If we make explicit that these are cues to people's emotions, there's a huge number of applications where we can then have algorithms learn from people's emotional cues and decide whether to enhance certain emotions or use them in certain ways.
\n\nSo I think it's going to be really, really key to get this right. And it requires expertise in how these emotions operate in daily life, in emotion science, in what is the definition of privacy here? What's the definition of a biometric measure which involves cyber law? And how does this intersect with existing laws and so forth? It's something that requires AI research expertise. You have to know how these algorithms work.
\n\nIt's something that requires specific kinds of AI ethics expertise. What is the alignment problem? How do we consider the value alignment in this situation? Which I think really comes down to optimizing for people's well-being. And we have brought together exactly that composition of expertise in The Hume Initiative.
\n\nCHAD: Hume AI has sort of signed off and said, "We're going to follow these guidelines of The Hume Initiative." Does that apply to every customer who is a customer of Hume AI?
\n\nDR. COWEN: Exactly, yeah. So we actually require people on our terms of use to adhere to the guidelines. And so, for a lot of people, that won't be that difficult because they'll look through the guidelines. They'll see that their use case is supported, that they're already following the recommendations that are in the guidelines. And so they're good. They're good to go. Some people might [laughs] see that they're not compliant with the recommendations. And then they'll be able to make adjustments to their product so that they're compliant.
\n\nAnd then others who are pursuing use cases that are not supported by the ethics guidelines can't use the platform, which is exactly what we want. We don't want people using this for mass surveillance, for example, and that's stated pretty clearly in the guidelines. So yeah, we do require all of our customers to adhere to these guidelines that we've now launched at thehumeinitiative.org.
\n\nCHAD: How important to you was it to have The Hume Initiative and these guidelines? Was it a precondition of doing all of this?
\n\nDR. COWEN: Yeah, it was important for two reasons; one is that I felt that this shouldn't be used to exacerbate a lot of the problems that we're going to run into with AI eventually, if not already, where AI could be using our emotional behaviors to optimize for an objective that could be misaligned potentially with our desires, what emotions we want to feel, or with our well-being. Even though when you're privy to these emotional behaviors, you have the opportunity to do what a human does and say, "I have empathy. Therefore, I can say this is probably not a good way to get people to spend more time on this app or to buy this thing because I know that it's exploitative in some way." And I don't think that's the norm.
\n\nI think, by and large, these strategies that have been used to optimize AI algorithms today have been good proxies for our well-being. Like, engagement is not necessarily a bad proxy for whether we want to spend time on doing something, but it's not good in all cases. And I think there's a huge amount of room for improvement because we don't know in all cases how the AI is getting us to be more engaged. And many of the strategies it uses may not be consistent with our well-being.
\n\nBut particularly going forward, once AI is smart enough, and once it has more control points in the environment, whether there are robots or digital assistants that have control over Internet of Things devices, AI will have an increasing influence on the environment around us, and it'll be smarter and smarter. And before long, it will be very important to make sure that it's aligned with our values. This is the concept of the alignment problem.
\n\nEventually, if you have a really, really smart, all-powerful, not all-powerful, but similar [laughter] powerful robot in your house and it's written by AI, and you tell it, "Hey, robot. I'm hungry. Make me the most delicious meal that you can that's healthy for me and satisfies all of these parameters using ingredients that are available in my kitchen." And if your cat happens to be in your kitchen and it realizes that, hey, this is lean meat. I have a great sense of what this person likes, so this is going to be really tasty. And it cooks your cat. [laughs] That's a way of satisfying this objective that you don't like.
\n\nAnd so if it understood something about what is it that makes people happy by learning from our emotional behaviors in everyday life, we're not often saying to this robot, "This is something that I don't want you to cook." But if the robot understood this is something that makes you happy in everyday life, that would be one proxy for it to be able to figure out this would be a negative on your well-being if it did this. And so that is ultimately the solution.
\n\nSo we're going from; first, we at least want to optimize our algorithms existing today for people to feel better or indications of their well-being. And then, later on, we just want to make sure that, increasingly, that is the objective of these algorithms. I think that's been really important to me.
\n\nCHAD: Obviously, it's not like the other companies out there doing this want to create a robot that cooks your cat.
\n\nDR. COWEN: No. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: But it is possible that other companies don't prioritize it in the same way that Hume might. How do you stay motivated in the face of maybe not everyone caring about creating this in the same way that you are?
\n\nDR. COWEN: That brings me to the other main reason for doing things this way, which is that I think there's enough of an economic incentive that you can create a company that is more successful for having made ethical commitments than otherwise. And I think that's particularly true if your company wasn't going to do anything unethical anyway, [laughs] which we didn't plan on doing and most companies don't plan on doing. Because if your company is not going to do anything unethical anyway, then you might as well be able to explain to people how you made the decision about what's ethical and what isn't and be able to make guarantees to them that actually attract more customers.
\n\nBecause the customers are able to say, "Look, they've made a legal commitment to not doing this." I don't have to suspect that these things are being used against me or in a manipulative way or in a way that doesn't preserve the privacy that I thought I had. I don't have to be skeptical of any of these things because I can see clearly that the company has made this potentially legal commitment, at least that's something that they're committed to publicly." So in that sense, it's purely an advantage. And that's true for AI generally but specifically for empathic AI.
\n\nI think there's been a hunger for those kinds of ethical guidelines, and you can see it in how people react to news of this technology. There is generally a skepticism in the air. I think it goes back also to maybe sometimes people's concerns about privacy are legitimate if the question is whether what the output is picking up on is going to wind up in the hands of people you don't want it to end up in. And those people are privy to things about your lifestyle, or they're able to use that against you in some way. That is a real privacy issue. It's not necessarily, to me, a privacy issue.
\n\nIf an algorithm is processing these things on device and the data never goes anywhere, and it's only used in a way in which you actually want it to be used, which is maybe to surface better music to you or to have you be taking better pictures on your phone, these are all great things for you.
\n\nAnd that data doesn't necessarily go anywhere in the same way that any of the photo data you take doesn't necessarily go anywhere even though it's already processed by lots and lots of algorithms, or your search queries aren't necessarily not private. Just because they're processed by algorithms, maybe even algorithms that are good for the business, they're not necessarily being seen by humans. And so, it's not necessarily a privacy issue.
\n\nBut people have this skepticism about emotion AI, in particular, empathic AI, in particular, because I think there are certain instincts that it plays on, like the idea that you're being watched. Early in our species history and even before our species, it was very important to be very wary of predators watching you from the bushes or from the crevices and all that. And I think that instinct is involved whenever we're being recorded, whenever there's a camera.
\n\nAnd that's not just an issue for empathic AI but also for things like facial identification, which brings up legitimate privacy concerns but also, sometimes there are uses that we don't care about at all, or they're clearly good. Like, I think facial identification for unlocking your phone that's a really good use. And that is basically what it's used for by some companies. Some big tech companies are just using it for that and not much else.
\n\nAnd so, when you unpack what you're doing with this stuff, it makes it a lot easier for people to be comfortable with it. And that is what the ethics initiative is doing essentially. It's giving people all of these use cases and recipes and unpacking what this is being used for so that people can be more comfortable with it. And I think that's actually something that is in the business' interest.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. Well, I really appreciate, you know, there are a lot of pushes and pulls when founders are creating new companies. So to put a stake in the ground in terms of what's important to you and the right way to build this product and to go through the effort of creating these guidelines and a whole initiative around it and everything is...well, I can see that not everyone does that because of the concern around oh, is this going to hurt my business? Is it going to make it harder for me to succeed? And so when principals and business case align, great, but even when they don't, I think it's important, and I commend you for making sure that you're leading with your principals.
\n\nDR. COWEN: Thanks. I mean, there have certainly been challenges to it. But I think that even so, the pros have outweighed the cons both ethically and for our business for us so far.
\n\nCHAD: Great. So if folks have enjoyed today's conversation and either want to dig in more, you have a podcast, right?
\n\nDR. COWEN: That's right. We have a podcast called The Feelings Lab, where we explore different emotions that are of concern in everyday life, that guide our everyday lives, and that are changing as a consequence of changes in society and technology. In Season One, we focused mostly on one emotion per episode. We had guests like Fred Armisen talking about horror, which is a really funny perspective to have [laughs] because fear is not always bad, and sometimes we like to watch horror movies. [laughs]
\n\nAnd in Season Two, we're focusing particularly on the technology. And so we had the CEO of Embodied Paolo Pirjanian, who has a robot called Moxie that's used to help kids in their emotional development, and it's a great toy. We had the CEO, one of the co-founders of Soul Machines, which was an avatar company. We had VP at Omniverse Platform Developments in NVIDIA talking about how AI is changing the abilities of artists and changing basically the way that film is made. And it's very interesting. So I'd encourage people to check that out.
\n\nCHAD: Where can people find that? I assume by searching for Feelings Lab in the podcast player. But do you have a domain name too?
\n\nDR. COWEN: Yeah, you can go to hume.ai, and then you can go to our content hub. That's one way to find it. And you can find the podcast on Apple, SoundCloud, pretty much wherever you get podcasts. And we also have a YouTube channel, The Feelings Lab. Actually, I think the YouTube channel is Hume AI, and then we post content on The Feelings Lab there as well.
\n\nCHAD: And you mentioned people can sign up now to be on the list for the Hume AI.
\n\nDR. COWEN: So yes, if you are interested in building an empathic AI technology of any kind and you would like access to our voice models or face models, emotional language models, easy access, one-line API call for streaming or for files, pretty much any use case you might have, you can sign up for the waitlist at hume.ai. And we will be releasing a beta version of the platform over the next few months.
\n\nCHAD: Cool. Well, if folks want to get in touch with you or follow along with you, where are the places where they can do that?
\n\nDR. COWEN: Folks who want to get in touch, you can email hello@hume.ai for information about our solutions, offerings, the company, or you can reach out to me personally alan@hume.ai
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. Alan, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.
\n\nDR. COWEN: Thanks for having me.
\n\nCHAD: You can subscribe to the show and find notes and transcripts for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter at @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening, and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Alan Cowen.
Sponsored By:
James Oliver Jr. is the Founder and CEO of The ParentPreneur Foundation, which empowers Black ParentPreneurs so they can leave a legacy for their beautiful Black children.
\n\nChad talks with James about inspiring, encouraging, and supporting ParentPreneurs to lobby to try to close wealth inequality gaps, shoot their shot and send cold emails, and engage in a community that supports one another.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is James Oliver Jr., Founder, and CEO of the ParentPreneur Foundation, which empowers Black ParentPreneurs so they can leave a legacy for their beautiful Black children. James, thanks for joining me.
\n\nJAMES: I'm super excited to be here. Thanks so much for having me.
\n\nCHAD: So I just said, in a nutshell, the tagline for ParentPreneur Foundation. I know it's a community that brings people together, Black ParentPreneurs together. How did you get started and see the need for this, and how did you actually then make it happen?
\n\nJAMES: Oh boy, that's a great question with a semi-long answer, so just hang in with me, but I think it's a really compelling story. So back in 2013, (I'm from Brooklyn, New York) at the time, I was living in Northeast Wisconsin. It started in 2011. I was trying to build a startup called WeMontage, which was the world's only website to let you turn your digital images into removable photo wallpaper.
\n\nCHAD: If you haven't seen it, by the way, you should look at it. That description that you gave, even though it describes it perfectly, I didn't realize until I went to the website and looked at the pictures exactly what it is and how remarkable of a product it is.
\n\nJAMES: Well, I'm delighted that you say that. Thank you so much. And that's part of the reason why [laughter] it failed. I mean, it's still around. And I know we have a bunch of designers in the community. So look, the website still works. The underlying collage editing software is still brilliant, but the UI UX needs a lot of love. It's a bit of a zombie with about $10,000-$15,000 of technical debt floating around over there. [laughs] But the product still works. And we still print, ship them sometimes. And we have tons of repeat customers. It's just one of those things. You build a great product, and they will always come. But the product is still brilliant still today.
\n\nSo back then, I was a non-technical founder. I was out of money. I cleaned out my savings and living in the middle of nowhere. There wasn't exactly a bastion of technology startups or diversity, even for that matter. And I was fortunate to get into Gener8tor's...I think we were the second cohort. Back then, it was super early. We went to Madison. And right now, Gener8tor is killing it.
\n\nBut I was out of money. I was thankful to get into their Madison cohort, which was a two-hour drive away. My ex-wife now was pregnant with our twins. The kids were supposed to be born end of March. Gener8tor ended early April. So I was like, okay, this timing works out brilliantly. But a day or two before the program started, I had to deliver, and we had to deliver the twins prematurely. Otherwise, my son would have died.
\n\nCHAD: Wow.
\n\nJAMES: His blood just started to circulate backwards. It was crazy. So we had to take them out. They weighed two pounds apiece. Every time I tell this story, it gives me agita, man. The accelerator was a two-hour drive each way back and forth to the NICU, waking up at 2:00 a.m. every morning because I couldn't sleep. I cried every day. I had a really talented developer on my team, but he had his personal demons. So he was really unreliable. But he was a brilliant guy. He was so smart, really talented.
\n\nBut anyway, I got through the accelerator. Right before I was going on stage for demo day, I got a call from this angel that we pitched. We were raising $250,000 at the time, which really, in retrospect, was not nearly enough money. But I got a call. He said, "Hey, we're going to fill your round." I don't know. What does that mean? I don't take anything for granted. [laughs] What do you mean? "We're going to give you $250,000."
\n\nAnd then I just dropped to my knees. I thanked God. And I cried because I had sacrificed so much to get to that point. Thankfully, my daughter came home after six weeks, and my son came home after ten weeks. The kids are doing fine. They drive me crazy, but they're beautiful.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] How old are they now?
\n\nJAMES: They just turned 9 in January. So after I launched WeMontage, I hired just a really remarkable technical co-founder and just a great guy. We still have a wonderful relationship. We got in there, and when I started out, I was like, well, I'm going to start a blog. I started a blog, and I was like, one of these days, I'm going to use the content from this blog to write a book.
\n\nCHAD: Before you move on, so in those early days, you had just gotten into the accelerator. You had this thing you needed to deal with with your family and delivering the twins. And did you ever consider dropping out of the accelerator at that point?
\n\nJAMES: I wasn't going to go, but I knew with that decision, WeMontage never would have come to light because I just didn't have the resources to make it happen. But as a family, we decided that I need to go do that and crush that, and so I made that choice. We raised money. In retrospect, we raised just enough money to fail because, look, the software was cute. We were running around pitching angels. It was cute to show look at what we can do, look at what we could do. When we turned the thing on, it was so unsustainable. It was a black box.
\n\nAnd I was on the phone literally with customers holding their hand to get them to place an order, and that was clearly unsustainable. So we made the decision that we need to fix this thing. We need to pull it apart, make it modular, stabilize the code, build on it. And by the time we got done with that, we only had a couple of months' cash left.
\n\nAnd I remember...man, if anybody has never told you this to your face, I promise you it's a hard thing to hear. They were like, "We're not going to throw good money after bad." I'm like, well, damn. Like, thanks. We have our first Today Show appearance coming up here next month. So thank you for that. Thanks. [laughs] Man.
\n\nCHAD: So you actually did go on the Today Show.
\n\nJAMES: Yeah, we got featured three times on the Today Show. I mean, on my own without a publicist, I got Today Show three times, Good Morning America, Money Magazine, DIY, Martha Stewart, on and on.
\n\nCHAD: I'm curious, after making an appearance like that, do your sales go up?
\n\nJAMES: They do. They did with the Today Show. So it was funny, like that first appearance, they didn't even put the graphic on the bottom with the name of the business. When Mario mentioned it, he said, "wemontage.com." Man, our freaking website went crazy. It crashed the website. [laughs] But we were kind of already prepared for it to crash. We had a little splash screen up and information. We got it back up in; I don't know, it was less than an hour.
\n\nBut I spent literally all day getting back to those people. We gave them a coupon code. And we did about $15,000 that month from that one segment, which was great. That was our best month to date. I mean, all total, I've probably done $75,000 to $80,000 in sales from the three times we appeared on The Today Show.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. We've had clients, or I've known people who have done appearances like that, and it seems a little bit hit or miss. Sometimes it won't even result in a blip, and other times it's huge. And I'm not sure what the trend is when it matters and when it doesn't.
\n\nJAMES: This is the point: we all love these vanity things. We want to get exposure, exposure. So I have a really great relationship with Seth Godin, and he's a big supporter of the work I'm doing at ParentPreneur Foundation. He gives us scholarships to his marketing seminar, and he comes to visit with us sometime. The last time he talked about...he said, "Stop trying to do things to get attention. Spend your time getting your customers to tell their friends about your business." And that's a whole fact.
\n\nWe love the vanity, but at the end of the day, PR does not necessarily equal cash flow. I had some hits. I got on Good Morning America, and that was not nearly as good as the Today Show. But that was by virtue of the last-minute change that they made in terms of how they were producing the segment. When they introduced my product, they had the camera on somebody else's product. They had people calling me about somebody else's stuff which is like, are you serious? But what are you going to do? You can't control that.
\n\nSo yeah, those things are good. I will say that having that stuff on the landing page is good for credibility. People feel more comfortable, especially if they can see it. So that stuff matters to a point, but I wouldn't be spending a lot of time. I certainly would not be wasting a penny on a PR professional if I was a founder. I just wouldn't do it. All that stuff I rattled off I did on my own.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. So you started to build a blog. [laughs]
\n\nJAMES: Yes. So the intention of that was to use that content to write a book to inspire ParentPreneurs around the world because it's hard being a parent and entrepreneur, especially if you're like early-stage scraping to get some revenue. You can't even talk about product-market fit yet. Can we make some money? [laughs] Can we make a buck?
\n\nCHAD: So I've done a few things in my life. Writing books is one of them, and I can't say that it's easy. I don't know how you found it. I was doing it with a traditional publisher the first few times around, and it was pretty difficult. How did you find it?
\n\nJAMES: So I self-published that book. And because of the way I approached it, I already had a bunch of content on my blog. It's funny; I was actually out of town. I was in Midland, Texas, because I got flown out there. I was on CNBC's version of Shark Tank, West Texas Investors Club, horrible experience, by the way. I swear if I ever go on another one of those shows, I'm going to bring the drama.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJAMES: Piece of advice, for any of you guys listening, if you go on Shark Tank or any of those shows, do not leave it up to the creative people to tell a story about you. This is just me; I'm a little crazy, crazy like a fox. But you give them the story. So this is me and you talking, just the two of us. [laughs] If I go on Shark Tank or something like that, I'm not taking those people's money. They're going to be like, "Oh, well, you're just here clearly for the exposure." I'm like, well, so are you. You're doing it too.
\n\nWhy should I give you 20% equity in my company for $200,000 or whatever it is? How much time are you actually going to spend helping me build my company? And by the way, the people who came before you from an investment standpoint already took a ton of risk off the table. So why should you get that money? And how many companies are in your portfolio? 50? So, okay, so are you really going to be helping me or nah? Nah? Right. No, I'm good.
\n\nCHAD: That'll definitely air. The producers will love that drama.
\n\nJAMES: That will air, right? See what I'm saying? And the people watching will be like, "Hell yeah, you tell them. Let me Google that real quick." [laughter]
\n\nCHAD: That's funny.
\n\nJAMES: But that's just me. But I have no intention of going back on any of those shows again because, at the end of the day, it was a bad experience for me. I only got about $6,000 in sales, but that's because nobody was watching that show. It was canceled. But at the end of the day, if you have a customer acquisition problem which is what we had at WeMontage, those things don't solve your problems. They just don't. Not necessarily. They could; you could get lucky. But it's probably not going to solve your problem.
\n\nCHAD: So I'm curious. So you wrote the book, and you focused on the concept of ParentPreneurs, Black ParentPreneurs specifically.
\n\nJAMES: No, actually, so the book was just for everybody who's a ParentPreneur. So the book's called The More You Hustle, The Luckier You Get: You CAN Be a Successful ParentPreneur. So Mario Armstrong, who's my guy from the Today Show, wrote the foreword to my book. We're really good friends. And it's on Amazon.
\n\nSome people have regarded it as the realest book of entrepreneurship they've ever read. It's unlike anything you ever read. It's the story of my journey, some of those things I just told you, and the up and down the back and forth. It will make you laugh, make you cry, make you wonder. You put it down, come back to it. There are some hard questions that I ask myself, and people read the book. It's a superfast read too.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. At what point did you decide to focus on empowering Black ParentPreneurs?
\n\nJAMES: So that's a great question. So after I wrote the book, I had this idea. I said one day I'm going to sell WeMontage. And maybe it will happen. I don't know; if God can intervene, something could happen. Who knows? [laughter] It's just not likely at this point, and that's okay. But I was like, I'm going to sell this business. I'm going to take a million dollars of my own money and start a foundation for parents who are entrepreneurs because it's really freaking hard. It's so hard. Unless you've been there, you have no idea how hard that is. It's really hard.
\n\nSo then, in early 2020, the whole world falls apart with George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor. I had my own Karen experience here in my backyard. I live in a really nice neighborhood in the suburbs of Atlanta. And I had to call the police on her. After the second experience, I filed a trespass warrant. Then I started looking at all the Federal Reserve wealth inequality data.
\n\nAnd I was like, I'm starting this foundation for Black ParentPreneurs because we need the help the most. We have got to try to close this wealth inequality gap. It's a big problem. I'm doing that. So now to answer your question, prior to that decision, so when I was going to Gener8tor, I met David Cohen and Brad Feld. They just popped up on a Google Meet to meet us. And these guys are co-founders of Techstars, which is one of the preeminent global startup accelerators.
\n\nAnd I just stayed in touch with them through their blogs. I didn't want anything from them. I remember I got an email from Brad a couple years back. And he's a voracious reader. He's a prolific writer. He sent me an email out of the blue. He said, "I just read your book. I effing loved it." [chuckles] He said, "I got to feature it on my blog." I was like, wow, okay, dope. So he did that. And we sold some books, which was great.
\n\nBut so I reached out to Brad and David. I was like, "Hey, guys, I'm thinking about starting this foundation for ParentPreneurs in general." And they were like, "Yeah, I'm game. We can go back and forth with you about it," and which is amazing at that level those guys would be willing to do that. I appreciated that. And they were both like, "Eh, foundations are hard. It's a constant fundraising grind, blah, blah, blah."
\n\nAnd, look, they're not wrong. [laughs] They're not wrong. But here's the thing, though. For me, telling me something is hard doesn't land with me because I've had to scrap and scrape for every single blade of grass on the field of life. And quite frankly, it's hard being Black sometimes. If I had $1 every time somebody told me that WeMontage would have been successful if I had a white face out there instead of me type thing, it is very frustrating.
\n\nSo then I got an email from Brad Feld out the blue after George Floyd, which was just a subject that said, "Hey, you're game for a 30-minute Zoom?" There was nothing in the body of the email. And I'm just like, yeah, I could as well want to talk to Brad. He's top of the food chain. He's not just a VC and co-founder of Techstars with a portfolio valuation north of $200 billion. He's also a Limited Partner. LPs are the people who write the checks to the VCs who write the checks to people like me and you guys listening who are entrepreneurs.
\n\nSo I'm like, hell yeah, I want to talk to you for 30 minutes, Brad Feld. Who doesn't? I just didn't know what it was about. So he said, "I just want to know what two things you're working on addressing racial injustice, inequality I can put my time on or attention on." I'm like, Oh, hell yeah. Chad, I'm like, he has no idea what I just decided.
\n\nSo we get on to Zoom. And I say, "You know, Brad, you remember that foundation thing I was telling you about?" He was like, "Yeah." I said, "Well, now that's just what Black ParentPreneurs is." He goes, "I'm so glad you did that." And this is the part that knocks me out of my chair every time I say it. He goes, "What would a 12-month operating plan look like? I can throw it up in a Google Doc, and I'll co-create it with you." [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: That's great. I mean, it is unfortunate that George Floyd being murdered and these other things have instigated people to want to make change and to get involved in ways that they haven't been able to before. That's super unfortunate, but something's got to wake people up.
\n\nJAMES: Well, that will come up because he was like, "Look, I'm this rich, middle-aged white dude. I've been doing things to support Black entrepreneurs in the past," but he's like, "I got to do more. So I'm reaching out to my friends, and I consider you a friend." I was like, wow, like, I knew you liked me a little bit, but I didn't know you liked me like that.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJAMES: But he is a friend. I have his phone number. I can call him. He's a friend. Him and David these guys are friends. So I got the 12-month operating plan right back to him. He said, "This is great. What would a six-month plan look like?" I got to write back. And he's like, "Assume three things, one of which is a $50 000 seed grant from my foundation to start the ParentPreneur Foundation." So Brad has given now, I don't know, north of $125,000. He got us into the Techstars Foundation, which has been phenomenal.
\n\nMy relationship with David has blossomed. I went on the Techstars Give First Podcast with David, and David's a friend as well. I just love those guys and how they move, and they've been super helpful. And so our foundation, at the heart of what we do, you mentioned this at the top, is we have a community of now almost 1,800 Black ParentPreneurs hosted on Mighty Networks, which is phenomenal because it's not on Facebook. That's the thing I love the most about it.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nCHAD: I actually have some questions about Mighty Networks on my list. So we don't need to take a tangent in there right now. We can come back to it. I want to ask you about Mighty Networks.
\n\nJAMES: Love it. Love it. Love Gina Bianchini. She's the CEO. I actually had her on my LinkedIn live show a couple of months ago.
\n\nCHAD: Well, let's do it now then, actually. So as someone who has built software before to put together a company, did you ever consider that for this? And why not? And why use Mighty Networks?
\n\nJAMES: To build a community platform?
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] It's a very loaded question, James.
\n\nJAMES: Yeah, why would I do that? Listen, by the time I got done with my prototype with that; these guys would be like two versions past where they are today, which would be infinitely better than my little stinky MVP, right?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah.
\n\nJAMES: And these people live, eat, and breathe community. Is Mighty Networks perfect? No, of course not. But they're constantly making improvements. I think I told you at the top I'm actually about to launch a new podcast. I just signed a national podcast distribution deal. So we're launching a podcast on the HubSpot Podcast Network. You guys have heard of HubSpot, right?
\n\nCHAD: I have, yes.
\n\nJAMES: So it's for ParentPreneurs in general, kind of like my book, to empower ParentPreneurs to be the best parent entrepreneur they can possibly be because being a ParentPreneur is hard. And we came upon this opportunity. I saw an article; maybe LinkedIn, I don't remember, talking about HubSpot launched a new podcast network last year. And I told you I got all these PR opportunities. And I got that because I'm not shy about shooting my shot.
\n\nA lot of people are too scared to shoot their shot, or they don't know what to do, how to do it. But cold emails I'm really good at sending cold emails. So I sent a cold email to the CMO of HubSpot. He was mentioned in the article. I went on LinkedIn. I scraped his email address using my favorite email scraping tool, GetEmail.io. It works on LinkedIn. You get their email address. I sent him an awesome email. Of course, he didn't follow up right away; well, not, of course, sometimes they do. He didn't follow up right away. I sent a follow-up email. And when I send follow-up emails, I like to give some kind of update.
\n\nSo in my follow-up email, I wasn't just like, "Hey, did you get my email? Please respond." It wasn't that. It was like some other update. I can't remember what it was, but it was an update following up about my email. He got back, copied somebody on the team. They got back, copied somebody else. They were like, "Do you have a clip or an excerpt of an interview?" And it just so happened we did because we knew we needed to get ready. So we did an interview with Neil Sales-Griffin, who's the Techstar Chicago Managing Director, and so we sent them an excerpt.
\n\nThey were like, "This is great. Do you have a whole episode?" So we edited that thing down right here that day. It was a Friday, sent it to them. They were like, "Thanks for sending. We'll get back to you by Monday with the decision because, by the way, we have this new program, this emerging podcast voices program. There'll be six to eight podcasts in this program. And we'll listen to this and consider it." So they got back to us Sunday night at 11:00 o'clock. "This is amazing. You guys are pros." I'm like, that's not me. That's really Mario. I have no idea what I'm doing at all.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJAMES: But thanks, Mario. "And you guys are stars. You can't teach stars." But I'm like, hey, all right. I've never done a podcast. But hey, glad somebody other than my mama likes me. This is awesome. And they were like, "We want to invite you to be one of the companies in this new cohort with a new podcast," and just a swoop in at the last minute like that all because I shot my shot. So if anybody's out there listening, don't be afraid to shoot your shot, man. It's a mindset. You got to know what to do, how to move. But you've got to first have the mindset like, yo, I am going to shoot my shot.
\n\nCHAD: I think as long as you...and you already said this, but you're making it real. Like, when you're following up, you're not just saying, "Hey, did you get my email?" You're finding ways to make it real and authentic. You got to show that you're real and not some bot.
\n\nJAMES: Yeah. So I will say in terms of the cold emails, I send them all the time. Cold emails is how I ended up collaborating with Nasdaq Entrepreneurial Center. We're big partners with them. We're part of this grant project with them with this major Wall Street Bank Foundation they're about to be announcing this year any day now. We got a grant tackling the problem of Black or Brown founders, underestimated founders not getting access to early-stage venture and angel funding.
\n\nSo we're part of that with my foundation all because I sent a cold email to some guy at Nasdaq. I don't even remember who it was, Western president. Sent him an email, he copied the executive director from Nasdaq Entrepreneurial Center. The rest is history. My last round of grants, they co-sponsored the last round of grants. They put in some money. Great relationship with Nasdaq. They got 30 of my people from our community featured in the Nasdaq Tower in Times Square, let that sink in, all because of a cold email.
\n\nSo if you're going to send a cold email, just a couple of tips off the top of my head. You need to have a compelling subject line. Keep the emojis to a minimum. [laughter] If you can use the person's name in the subject, I think that increases your open rate by like 20%. The email's got to be right to the point. Hey, my name is James Oliver, CEO of ParentPreneur Foundation. Put a link to the ParentPreneur Foundation in that instance. We got funded by Brad Feld, co-founder of Techstars, and put a link to Brad Feld's article. Establish credibility right away and get to the freaking point. Like, what do you want? Make an ask. What do you want? Get right to it. That's it.
\n\nCHAD: And then when you don't hear back, and you should follow up?
\n\nJAMES: Oh yeah. You absolutely got to follow up. I'll follow up a couple of times. I know Mario is like, "I just keep following up till they tell me to stop." [laughter] He's gangsta like that. I'll follow up three or four times. But after that, I know when people are pestering me. At that point, you're pestering. I'm not interested. If I was interested, I would have responded, so knock it off.
\n\nBut I also respect the hustle when people are coming to me with something that's legit. And I will respond because I am them sometimes too. I'm like, "Hey, thanks for reaching out. I really appreciate it. I'm just not interested," or "I'm not interested now. Ping me back in six months."
\n\nCHAD: As someone who gets cold emails, I do the same thing when it's a legitimate...and you can tell. You can tell the ones where they're just blanket sending the same thing to a bunch of people. And you can tell when it's someone legitimately sending you a cold email.
\n\nJAMES: Because if you mention something about what they do specifically and how that's relevant to your email or your ask, that increases your chances of getting a response. Hell, I sent a cold email to Mark Cuban, bro.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome.
\n\nJAMES: He said yes. I interviewed him on my blog. I don't write on my blog anymore. But he got right back to me, and I interviewed him on my blog. He was great.
\n\nCHAD: So I don't know if everyone does this. Like you said, even if it's not a fit for me or I can't do it right now or whatever, if it's a legitimate thing, I will almost always actually respond to it eventually.
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\n\nJAMES: So, if I may, I just want to talk a little bit about the impact in the ParentPreneur Foundation.
\n\nCHAD: Yes.
\n\nJAMES: Because we have 1,800 people now. This current round of grants makes $95,000 in the last 19 months since we launched. We do micro-grants of $1,000 apiece. I think I just tweeted this morning that it just seems like people look down their nose at a $1,000 grant. And I'm like; clearly, these people are not or never have been a super hustling, early-stage entrepreneur and definitely not one of those with kids. So $95,000, again, keep in mind, I don't know anything about a foundation, a non-profit. I've never done it before. I've never started a community, but I don't care; it doesn't matter. [laughs] You know what I'm saying?
\n\nIn this instance, there's a tremendous founder-market fit because I am them. And that shines through brilliantly in all the things that we do. And the thing that I'm most thankful for that we've done in the community is we've paid for 320 mental therapy sessions for our community members. And that's important because historically, mental health is stigmatized in the Black community. And there's this belief of epigenetics, which is basically you can pass trauma down through your DNA to your descendants. And if that's true, Black folks got a lot of trauma, and we need to get it worked out. And when we do it in our community, people jump right on it.
\n\nSo I'm so proud of those guys that they take it very seriously. And that's really legacy, and that's impact because we're creating a legacy of mental wealth for the people in our community that influences how they show up for themselves, for their businesses, for their partners and spouse, for their children, all of which impacts how their children show up in the world. So it matters a lot.
\n\nCHAD: I think the therapy sessions are a great example of when you have an authentic, unique community, something is going to come out of that which is so specific to that community. The impact of that is huge but also, where did that idea come from? Was that you? You said, "Hey, this is a need we have to do this"?
\n\nJAMES: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: Did it come from the community itself?
\n\nJAMES: No. And see, this is why I'm talking about the founder-market fit. I don't know all the things that my people need, which is why a lot of times I ask them, "What do you want? What do you need?" But a lot of things I already know they need before they even need them because I've been where a lot of those guys are, and some of them ain't been there yet. I already know what you're going to be looking at in six months, bro. You need to pay attention a little bit. So right from the beginning, we use betterhelp.com. We created a BetterHelp account. And it's so easy.
\n\nWe use Typeform. Typeform is another partner of ours. They've given us lots of free codes, and VideoAsk is a new Typeform company. We use that for our application process, which is just brilliant. I keep getting compliments about how amazingly seamless and elegant our application process is for the grants using VideoAsk. But we use Typeform and first come, first serve. It fills up, and then I just get the email addresses, and I just drop them right into Betterhelp's account. And they reach out to people in the community, and they get them set up. It's so easy.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. What happens in the community? Is part of the value of the community just support from each other?
\n\nJAMES: Well, that's a big part of it. So that's a great question. So one of the things in the Seth Godin marketing seminar is he talks about tension and why it's important in marketing and how it drives change and drives people to action. And the assignment around tension I couldn't think of like what the tension was for the ParentPreneur Foundation.
\n\nBut when he came to meet with us, and we were talking about it, he said, "If I'm on an airplane and we're sky jumping, and they're like, 'Well let's jump out,' and it's a perfectly good airplane," the tension for him is what if the parachute doesn't open? And the answer is like, "Well, don't worry. We have a backup chute for you." Okay, banzai, let's go. [laughs]
\n\nBut for the ParentPreneur Foundation, the tension is what if we fail on this rocky road? What if we fail in our journey to leave a legacy for our beautiful, Black children? He said, "It doesn't matter because we have each other's backs on this rocky road." So I'm like, yes, that's exactly right. We have each other's backs. And I'm telling you, man, I see it. A lot of stuff is taking place; I have no idea. But I hear about it from time to time, just organically. People are collaborating. It's just amazing, man. It's just great.
\n\nSo yeah, I know it's lonely being an entrepreneur, a lot of different challenges, unique challenges of being a Black entrepreneur. And it's just great to have a safe space for that. We do a lot of different things. We paid for virtual assistants. We paid for when kids were being virtual schooled. We paid for some virtual tutors for some of the children.
\n\nSocial capital is another thing that I talk about a lot. We pay for people to improve their LinkedIn profiles and understand how to move properly on LinkedIn and build and increase their social capital, which to me is as problematic as a dearth of financial capital because, without social capital, you can't even imagine what's possible. And it was Albert Einstein who said that imagination is more important than knowledge. And it's just so true. So we're doing all the things.
\n\nCHAD: So, do you have a sense of what the split is between moms and dads in the community?
\n\nJAMES: Yeah, just off the top of my head, I think it's around 75-25 moms and dads, and that's interesting. Women like to build community, men we don't. We're like the king of the jungle. We're all okay by ourselves. [laughs] We don't want to build community. But, man, women love to build community, and they hold down our community in a big way, and I'm just so thankful for them.
\n\nCHAD: So you started in 2020. One thing that I've seen, and I think it makes your timing good, is that a lot of people either had change forced on them because of the pandemic, and they lost their jobs. Or they felt like they needed to make a change. And a lot of people faced with that decided to do something on their own and make something happen. So there has been a surge in entrepreneurship from my...
\n\nAnd another thing there's been a surge in is people going to coding bootcamps feeling like yeah, I lost my job, or I no longer want to do this job that I can no longer do remotely. I want to make a change in my life and learn to code. Does that resonate with you as something you've seen in terms of people who have never been entrepreneurs before who had it forced on them or making a conscious choice to do it, joining the community?
\n\nJAMES: Yeah, absolutely. To a certain extent, at the beginning of COVID, when everybody was freaking out, because I understand that within every crisis exists an opportunity, I was looking for that opportunity. I was like, all right, where's the opportunity here? I was asking the questions. And then, I had a chance coffee meeting with some acquaintances and told them my intention of starting the foundation one of these days. And they were like, well, what are you waiting for? Why don't you do it now? And I thought that was like the answer to my question. And I was like, oh damn, like, yeah, what am I waiting for? Let's do it now.
\n\nSo yeah, a lot of people are moving towards entrepreneurship. I think a quick Google search will bear that out. I don't know to what extent, but I know it's a lot. The application for new businesses are increasing over the last few years. So yeah, I get it. People kind of hate their corporate jobs. They hate going to the office. I get it. My goal in life is to never have to wear a suit and tie again. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Even when you go on Good Morning America.
\n\nJAMES: I might wear a suit, but I'm not wearing a tie. Knock it off. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Well, I'm sure everything you mentioned that you've been fundraising all this stuff costs money. Does the majority of your funding come from bigger donors? I know that you have a link to donate, and I encourage people to do that. But how much time do you have to spend fundraising? What is the donor mix? And how can people help?
\n\nJAMES: It's just weird. We get in our own heads. I used to say, man, I kind of suck at fundraising, but I don't. We raised almost $300,000 since I started this thing with no experience. That's not somebody who sucks at fundraising, right?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah.
\n\nJAMES: But in my mind, we should have a million dollars in the bank so I can hire an executive director, and we can ramp up the programs that we know, or I can scale this thing up and do some other things. I have some other things I want to do. I want to do a startup studio. I'm trying to partner with Techstars right now. With Techstars, I'm already talking to the right people. I want to do a pre-accelerator program with them for Black ParentPreneurs and putting like $20,000 in people's pockets. That's going to cost money. We need a sponsor for that.
\n\nBut to answer your question, you can visit parentpreneurfoundation.org click donate. And $25 a month it all helps. It all adds up. We have things that we have to do to keep the platforms going and tools and resources that we use to keep it all going. The big chunks have come from people like Brad Feld and David Cohen. And Fred Wilson even donated $10,000 one-time but yeah, we need more. I'm just biding my time. And the work we're doing matters so much. It's making a big impact. We are literally helping people raise money and get their businesses off the ground.
\n\nAnd one woman who just went through the Techstars Founder Catalyst Program with JPMorgan Chase here in Atlanta she went because I introduced them on my show. And she got in, and she just raised $250,000. And then she just told me she got a commitment for another half a million dollars. And this other woman she got a $250,000 grant from Wells Fargo because of our relationship with Nasdaq. And another guy got a term sheet for half a million dollars because of the introductions we're making.
\n\nSo we're literally out here building capacity for the members of our community in so many ways. I'm thankful. I'm honored. I'm humbled to be in this position to do this work. But this is purpose work for me. This is my purpose, and I'm thankful to have found it. It's like Mark Twain says, "The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you figure out why." I encourage people to go figure out why.
\n\nCHAD: And if you are Black ParentPreneur hearing what we're talking about and saying, "Yeah, now I know about this. This is for me." You also go to parentpreneurfoundation.org and sign up there.
\n\nJAMES: Yes, sir. Click the join community button. Absolutely.
\n\nCHAD: Well, James, thanks for stopping by and sharing with me and all the listeners. I really appreciate it, and I wish you and everything that you're doing all the best.
\n\nJAMES: Yes. And, Chad, thanks for reaching out, man. Look at you; you're on your hustle. It wasn't you that reached out to me. There was somebody else.
\n\nCHAD: It was, yeah. Another member of my team.
\n\nJAMES: How'd you find me, man?
\n\nCHAD: I think she's very good at LinkedIn, and you're good at LinkedIn and so --
\n\nJAMES: [laughter] Well, I got a big [inaudible 36:11] show them the receipts, man. Show them the impact because that's what you got to do.
\n\nCHAD: Are there other places where if folks want to get in touch with you or follow along with you? Where are the other places they can do that?
\n\nJAMES: Yeah, they can do that on IG. We're parentpreneurfoundation on IG. I'm not super active there, but we're there. You can follow me on Twitter. I talk a lot on Twitter. I don't think anybody's listening, but I talk a lot on Twitter.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJAMES: That thing doesn't come on until you actually earn those blue checkmark thingies, I swear. Because I will say something I think is really profound, and it's crickets. And I see somebody with a blue checkmark say the exact same thing, and I'm like, okay, I see how it is, but whatevs. [laughs] So I'm on Twitter @jamesoliverjr, jamesoliver-J-R. Follow me on Twitter. That'd be awesome. Shoot me a tweet. Tell me you heard about us, heard about me on The Giant Robots Show here. I would love to connect, engage, and build and learn with your audience. So thanks.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. And for all of you listeners, you can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode along with an entire transcript of the episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments for me, email me at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
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Special Guest: James Oliver Jr..
Sponsored By:
JT Lidell is the Founder of Promenade, which seamlessly matches and connects military veterans to the resources, people, and organizations that matter to them.
\n\nChad talks with JT about being a mission-driven, bootstrapped organization, the problems that he's encountered and hopes that Promenade solves, and aggregating people, tools, resources, and funding to make it happen.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel and with me today is JT Liddell, the Founder of Promenade, which seamlessly matches and connects military veterans to the resources, people, and organizations that matter to them. JT, thank you so much for joining me.
\n\nJT: No, thank you for having me. Excited to talk to you about what we're building over here and having this conversation. So thank you so much for having me on today.
\n\nCHAD: I love mission-driven organizations, and Promenade falls right into that. How did it come about for you?
\n\nJT: Yeah, this has been...the inception of it really truly began many, many years ago when I first joined the military straight out of high school. So I went to The Naval Academy, actually, started there then went to the army. Fast forward 7, 8, 9, 10 years, and as I was getting out of the military and trying to join the civilian workforce, the civilian world, that's where a lot of the problems and challenges that I'm trying to solve through Promenade started.
\n\nAnd then, working in the technology space in corporate America really allowed me to identify some of the solutions and tools that I'm working with now. But to answer your original question, the beginning of Promenade or the inception of Promenade really began with my entry into the military.
\n\nCHAD: What were some of the problems that you encountered and that you hope that Promenade solves?
\n\nJT: Back in 2000...I left the military officially in 2010 but went straight into defense contracting work from there and worked there for a few years. And it was, as I was leaving, I went literally from Afghanistan, and 30 days later, I was sitting in an MBA classroom. And leaving Afghanistan, I thought there was literally no problem, no challenge...after going through three deployments to Afghanistan and being deployed to other parts of the world, I was like, there's nothing that I'm going to come against that I won't be able to tackle. That was the furthest from the truth.
\n\nSo there are a number of issues when it came to relationships, when it came to navigating the workforce, when it came to just understanding how drastically different the civilian world was from being in the military and the defense industry. So those problems are umbrellas, and there are many, many things underneath those that I came up against.
\n\nCHAD: What are some of the ways that, you know, I speak as someone not having served in the military. What are some of the big ways in which civilian employment is different?
\n\nJT: It wasn't even necessarily...well, obviously, there are huge differences obviously from the military and civilian employment. But it was really even like, how do you get entry into the civilian workforce just from the very beginning? So, how do you craft a resume? It seems like a minor thing at this point in my life, but it's a huge one. When you leave the military, you have these 9, 10, 11-page resumes. And that's what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to put literally every single piece of experience that you have on this resume.
\n\nBut when you come to the civilian world, you have to somehow condense all of that down to one page, and there's a science to doing that, and that was one of the first huge hurdles. Because a resume is just your ticket into the door, it's a ticket to that interview. That's just literally the first step. And that was something that I didn't realize was something I was going to have to hone my skill at.
\n\nCHAD: Do you think that a lot of companies overlook the value of military service?
\n\nJT: Yeah, that's a tough one to answer. So it's hard to say overlook when as a military veteran just taking myself, for instance, you know, in a lot of ways, I was not communicating effectively what my experience was in relation to the value I could provide to that organization. So as a recruiter or a headhunter, whoever is doing that initial review, they're simply looking...for a large part, they don't have experience in the military. So they don't understand the jargon and what some of these different jobs really mean with the impact they had on their organization. So there's still a lot of meat in the middle here.
\n\nSo that individual needs to do a better job of communicating the exact value through a corporate sense how that value could contribute to corporate America or whatever type of organization they're trying to join. And organizations need to do a much better job of understanding that there's this untapped value in the military community and teaching and training their organizations or whoever is doing the intake process to look for the value that the military community can bring. So I don't think it's a one-sided thing. I think both sides need to come together and do a better job.
\n\nCHAD: So I said in the intro that Promenade matches and connects veterans to the resources, people, and organizations that matter to them. What exactly does that look like in terms of the product today and what you're doing?
\n\nJT: Yeah, absolutely. So this really began as a grassroots operation through my own ecosystem. Many, many years ago, when I was first getting in the military, and I was starting to get traction and understanding how to navigate the civilian world, I started to reach back. People would reach out to me, and I would reach back. And they would ask me, "How did you get here? How did you do that?" And I would just help people, review their resumes for them, get them connected to different jobs and career pathways. And then I started to do that a little bit more officially, if you will.
\n\nAnd then, I realized this is not just a problem within my own ecosystem; this is a problem across the military community. So as I was working in technology, as I mentioned before, I started to identify tools, one of them being artificial intelligence, that could help me scale the work that I was doing. So the pathway that I started to set out on was how do I take this grassroots work that I'm doing, and then how do I scale that work to millions of people rather than just dozens of people? So that's the journey that I'm on right now. I don't know if that answered your question or not.
\n\nCHAD: So if someone is listening and they're a veteran, what is the product going to offer them now?
\n\nJT: So they'll come on, and they'll onboard to the platform. So essentially, we're just taking the process that we've been doing offline, and we're bringing it online. So they'll come on. They'll fill out some demographic information. They'll answer a few questions about where they are in their current post-military journey. They could even be thinking about getting out. The product will still help them as they're on their way out, thinking about getting out. They could have been out for a month, a year, an entire decade doesn't really matter. We'll help assess where they are in their post-military journey.
\n\nAfter they go through that intake process, we'll give them the option to talk to one of our coaches, which can make this experience a little bit more personalized. And that's one of the huge things that I learned as I've been building Promenade is when I first started tackling this, thinking about tackling this issue through technology, I was like, okay, this technology these tools that I've identified and I've researched these are going to be the things that solve this problem. That's what's going to do this. No, that's what's going to fix this.
\n\n[chuckles] And what I quickly realized is you can't remove that human component from this process. There are just things that technology doesn't understand about the military experience. So having a coach, having an individual or human to talk to at the very beginning of this process, or whatever that individual needs is extremely crucial and hugely beneficial to this process. So we put that coach in front of them. That's completely optional because we do want to allow this to be self-service and self-guided.
\n\nSo if they choose to get in front of that coach, they'll be able to talk one on one and augment this process. If they don't, they'll go straight to our dashboard. And what the dashboard will do is it's going to help that individual identify different areas within their post-military journey where they can improve and get better.
\n\nAnd, Chad, we haven't talked about this, but we've got this social impact-driven product that we're building. But the lens that we're really thinking about this is through a healthcare lens. So what that means is there's this term called social determinants of health. And what that means is...the very simple version is a super simple concept. Every part of your life impacts your overall health. The health care system, like when you go to the hospital, only impacts 20%-30% of your overall health.
\n\nThe things that truly impact your health are things like, do you have a job? Have you talked to a therapist in the last six months? Do you have food, you know, the right type of food? Do you have access to the right type of food? Not just food. Are you ordering Burger King every day, McDonald's every day? But are you eating healthy food? And do you have consistent access? Those are the things that affect your overall health.
\n\nSo we look at all of these different factors about the veteran and how they're going through their post-military journey. And we give them a score on all these different verticals. So essentially, through that score, we're helping them identify what those gaps are, and then we're pushing them resources to help fill those gaps.
\n\nSo they'll get a couple of things through our platform. They'll get that dashboard and that score and personally recommended or personalized recommended resources to them, and that's where the artificial intelligence component comes into it. And then they'll have sort of a search field where they can just go and keyword for things just like they would go into Google and search for something.
\n\nAnd then the third component to this is the community that we're building, and that won't be rolled out initially. But once we've got critical mass, we've got a community that we're building where they'll get connected to people within our community, maybe people with the same skills and interest, people that they were deployed with, people that they were stationed with, or people that they just came across. And we've got a method to do that. But that's really what it's about is bringing this community together, helping them assess where they are in their post-military journey, and then putting the right resources in front of them at the right time based on who they are. So that's the experience they'll get, to answer your question.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. Who pays for Promenade?
\n\nJT: So it's going to be twofold. So there'll be a freemium model for the military veteran, so all those things that I just mentioned, minus one or two. They'll get free access to the platform. So they'll be able to log on. They'll be able to see where they're at in their journey. And they'll be able to navigate the platform and get those personalized recommendations.
\n\nOn the organizational side, they will also pay to access the platform. And then there's some other work...back when I mentioned a couple of minutes ago that organizations need to do a better job of understanding the military community, we help organizations better understand the military community, attract and retain military veteran talent if that's something that they're in the business of doing. So there are multiple ways to do it.
\n\nCHAD: And organizations would pay for that.
\n\nJT: That's right. Absolutely. Yeah.
\n\nCHAD: Is that a significant or a fundamental part of the business model?
\n\nJT: Which part?
\n\nCHAD: The organizations paying.
\n\nJT: Yeah, it is. So it depends on which part of interacting with the organization that we're talking about. So there are two ways we can do that. There's A, giving them access to the platform so just, for example, on the jobs portion, careers portion, recruiters. We'd give them access to the platform to get access to the talent. But on the let's help this organization think about how they're even reaching out to the veteran community, how they're recruiting them, the process that veterans are going through in order to apply to these organizations, once veterans are in these organizations, how are they supporting the veteran community?
\n\nAnd maybe even after they've left, depending on which organization you're talking about, how are you supporting that veteran community once they've left so they can be...you want them to be ambassadors for your organization. How are you supporting the veteran community even after they've left? So that's two completely different ways that we can interact with the organization. The fundamental one would be those organizations getting access to our platform and interacting with the veteran community. That for sure would be fundamental to what we're building.
\n\nCHAD: So who's funding Promenade right now?
\n\nJT: [laughs] Yeah, that's a great question. So this is definitely up until maybe a year or so ago; it's definitely been bootstrap built for sure completely out of my pocket. But thanks to some of the visibility we were able to get, in the work we were able to do, organizations were able to get in touch. We've gotten a couple of grants, one huge one from Google for Startups last year. That was $100,000 from Google for Startups. That's been obviously huge for the work and the momentum.
\n\nAnd what I always tell people is, you know, Chad, you've been doing this a while. [laughs] You know that $100,000 can get run through pretty quickly in the tech startup space. That was huge, and I don't want to downplay that by any means. But that wasn't even the biggest impact to what we're doing. It's just the visibility that it created for our organization.
\n\nWe've had just the veterans that we work with; we've had so many reach out just because they heard about us but organizations as well that have reached out to us. They want to work with us. They want to support us. That was huge. But to answer your question, it's a combination of grant money, cash awards from different organizations, and bootstrapping it from me JT here.
\n\nCHAD: Well, thanks for doing that [laughs] and bringing this really important service to life. What are some of the barriers to achieving the success that you want to achieve with Promenade?
\n\nJT: What we're doing is essentially we're aggregating information. We're aggregating people. We're aggregating tools and resources. We're bringing all this together. I didn't think it would be easy by any means. But it's definitely much harder than I imagined it would be when I set out in this journey a couple of years ago. One of the hardest things about this is you've got all of these different areas that you're trying to assess veterans and getting these tools and resources and organizations in front of them. How do you consistently and with quality put those organizations and tools and resources in front of the veteran?
\n\nI want all of them to have the same experience. I want them to have an amazing experience. I want them to get connected quickly and with quality to the people and organizations and tools that they need to get connected to. So how do you make that experience consistent and standard across the board? And how do you control as much as possible the quality of that interaction?
\n\nBuilding these partnerships has been challenging. It's been difficult. But every time, I get frustrated...just like, every startup goes through those barriers. You get frustrated. I just think back to those moments where I was down on my post-military journey. And I'm like, I never want another veteran to have to go through that. That's what keeps me pushing when those barriers do hit.
\n\nAnd I'm like, this is going to be hard. How do I keep that organization, or how do I ensure that organization is doing A, B, and C? How do I ensure I'm keeping this veteran pushing forward and motivated when they get frustrated? Those are some of the barriers. But as I said before, I just look back on when I was going through my journey. And I don't want any veteran to have to go through that experience. So that's what keeps me going.
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\n\nCHAD: So you officially started Promenade in May of 2020. Is that right?
\n\nJT: I came up with the idea actually in 2017 sort of the framework for what I'm doing now. And I'm in Atlanta, Georgia, and I don't know how much you know about the tech startup space in Atlanta, Georgia, but it's booming right now for sure. That'd be an understatement. And I have a few different people around me, a number of people around me in my ecosystem that are in the tech startup space. And I watched them going through their own personal journeys and finding success.
\n\nAnd I was like, number one, I have all these people around me that are doing it, non-technical founders, technical founders, first-time founders. There's no reason I can't also do this. And then number two, I was like, if I looked on my phone seven years from now and I saw a Promenade built by somebody else, I'd be super pissed. [laughter] I'm going to be so pissed.
\n\nI remember this quite clearly December 2019; I was like, you have to do something; if you don't, you're going to regret it. So December 2019, I went, and I signed up for this organization here in Atlanta called ATDC. I signed up for my first intro to customer discovery class. And from there, I've been pushing ever since. I think I incorporated the organization around May or March or something like that officially. But the idea, inception in its current form probably 2017 and then really began building in January 2020.
\n\nCHAD: So, how do you think the pandemic has impacted the ability to start Promenade?
\n\nJT: Yeah, a number of different ways. But I would say net-net actually in a positive way in not like the actual of what the pandemic means but the environment. It showed me clear as day that there's a huge net need for digital services when it comes to the military veteran community. Because a large resource for the veteran community is Department of Veteran Affairs, you know, doing amazing work doing great work. But just like many other government organizations, many aspects of it were shut down during the pandemic.
\n\nSo let's just talk about mental wellness because that's something that is highly visible in the veteran community as being an issue. The suicide rate increased exponentially during the pandemic within the veteran community. That's because people are isolated. They're already going through issues; maybe people are getting out of the military during the pandemic.
\n\nIt just showed me that there's a huge increased need for digitally online for this veteran community, resources for the veteran community, and just giving them an ecosystem to interact in. And it just pushed me even harder to build what I was building. So the pandemic was obviously a very terrible thing, but in terms of Promenade and the work that I was doing, it just made me go even harder for sure.
\n\nCHAD: So right now, is it just you?
\n\nJT: Yeah, so it's me. I've got one personal assistant, and I've got several designers and developers that I work with.
\n\nCHAD: On a contract basis?
\n\nJT: Yes, all contractors. But in terms of people who are hands-on building this thing, I probably couldn't even count the number, as I'm sure you know when it comes to developers and designers trying to build these solutions. But in terms of being officially a part of Promenade, it's still just me going at this thing right now.
\n\nCHAD: And while you're doing this, you have another full-time job, right?
\n\nJT: I do. I do.
\n\nCHAD: I think that's a scenario that a lot of people find themselves in is wanting to do something new but not necessarily being able to, you know, you're bootstrapping something on the side. How do you make it work? And what would need to happen for you to take the leap to be able to just work on Promenade?
\n\nJT: How do I make it work? A lot of Red Bull, a lot of energy drinks, [chuckles] and a lot of late nights. But again, as I mentioned before, that's something I would put in as time as a barrier when it comes to building this thing. I just take it back to the many conversations I have with veterans as they've been going through their own personal journeys. That just keeps me going.
\n\nAs far as what would it take for me to move away to work on Promenade full time, the only true thing I think it would take would really be line of sight and visibility on being able to drive this thing forward in a sustainable manner, just having a line of sight on that, on this thing. Okay, I've got the traction. I can see it. It's tangible. I just need to do A, B, and C to keep pushing this thing forward. I know that's sort of vague, but that's really what it would take.
\n\nCHAD: Do you think you're going to have to take funding from somewhere, or do you think you can continue to bootstrap and operate on the grants and awards?
\n\nJT: It depends. That's a good question. That's something I've gone back and forth with. Working in the tech startup space, that's something that's discussed a lot is angel investors and VCs, and you need to do this to attract funders and things like that. That's something that's discussed a lot in this space. But it's something that I've gone back and forth with. It really comes down to what I want this thing to be at the end of the day. This thing could be huge. There's a huge gap in the military veteran space in a multitude of ways.
\n\nThis thing could be a unicorn if that's the direction I really wanted to take it. And I think if I go down that pathway, it's for sure going to take funding from outside sources. But if I want to keep this thing more small scale or maybe even local to that Atlanta, Georgia region where I live and only focus on that one region, that's something I could probably bootstrap until I've got the revenue necessary to work on it full time and just keep it at more of a local level.
\n\nBut I think based on the impact that I'm trying to have throughout the entire veteran community and not just on veterans themselves but the organizations which could help...we've got this concept called train the trainer in the military, which is the experience I had as well. But essentially, it's I can do all the work and have all the impact. But it would be 10X more impactful if I'm working with Fortune 500 companies that are doing the same thing that I'm doing, impact in the veteran community in the same way that I am.
\n\nSo I think that's the direction I'll probably end up going, and that's why I'll have to go look for funding from other sources to build this thing the way I want to build it. So we'll see. We'll see.
\n\nCHAD: The problem with funding, obviously, is that if it comes from traditional investment sources, then they expect a return, and you have to be able to show that. It might be made up, but you have to have a story that demonstrates that there's a return. And you alluded to one angle at the beginning when you talked about healthcare. Do you see that as a potential angle in terms of what the business model might be and what industry you might actually be part of?
\n\nJT: That's a great question. So I know that if I go full-fledged down the healthcare route, social determinants of health, tracking health outcomes for the veteran community, then most definitely, this would be something where I would need outside funding, traditional funding to build this thing. And I think that's where when it comes to like, okay, I set out on this journey to impact the veteran community, and I want to have the most impact possible. That's going to be the route I'm going to have to go down.
\n\nBut quite candidly, I do not have at this point enough expertise around the healthcare space to say, okay, let's go down that pathway. Right now, part of the journey that I'm on outside of just trying to build this thing and get this thing launched over the next month, or two is how do I get myself more integrated into the healthcare world to better understand how what I'm building overlaps or integrates into what's going on around social determinants of health in the healthcare space? And how do I insert myself into that? That's something I'm currently assessing.
\n\nCHAD: Well, and the interesting thing, too, for me is the thought that I wonder if that actually is something that is top of mind for the users, the veterans, or whether they're just thinking I need a job, [chuckles] and they're not necessarily thinking about their health top of mind. I mean, what do you think?
\n\nJT: They're not today. Absolutely not. Today when they reach out to me, they're like...and it's funny because that just opens another can of worms. But it just opens up this whole nother aspect of what I'm doing. So when they come to me, they're like, "I need a job." They're like, "I'm about to lose my car. I need help with my car payment," or "I'm going to be homeless soon." That's how people reach out to me. But, Chad, that's not truly the issue.
\n\nAs you can imagine, if you're at the point to where you're about to be homeless, there's all this other stuff going on within your life. That's truly the work that we do. It's like people come to me...I have people reach out to me literally every single day. "I need help with this. I need help with that." And I'm like, okay, I have a conversation with them. And then we realize there's like 9, 10, 11 other things going on. So to answer your question, they're not thinking about this healthcare issue.
\n\nAnd from a user standpoint, that's not even how I want to approach this, like telling them, "Oh, I'm going to be here to improve your health outcomes." I wouldn't have that conversation with them. My conversation with them would still be around these different pillars. But on the organizational side, that's where I would communicate to them and say, "I've got these group of individuals who are coming to me and saying, 'I need this assistance.'" And what we're doing at the end of the day is improving their health outcomes. And what that means is, healthcare payer, they're not touching your healthcare system, which means you're saving tons of money.
\n\nAnd that's the part that I'm currently unpacking to say, okay, not to the user that we're doing this work and healthcare but to these organizations. And there are examples of this already out there. So, how do I do that but stay true to the work that I'm doing with the military veteran? Because one of the things that I know that's not going to change for what I'm building is the focus on the user. There are 40,000 veteran service organizations alone. There's $250 billion that gets poured into the veteran community through the Department of Veteran Affairs.
\n\nSo there's no shortage of organizations working on the veteran community, with the veteran community, and there's no shortage of money out there when it comes to helping bolster the veteran community or improve outcomes within the veteran community. The true challenge that I see or the true issue that I see is there's a lack of focus on the actual veteran themselves and what they're going through. There are no tools out there for them to tap into and go on this journey. That's what I'm laser-focused on is how do I create an amazing experience for the military veteran themselves, not the organizations that are out there doing some of this work, if that makes sense.
\n\nCHAD: It totally does. And I think it really makes sense for you. I think it's a problem that a lot of startups face is that there's this draw, maybe because of your business model or because of the environment that you have this other piece, but what you really need to do is focus on creating value for your users. And in an ideal world, those two things become aligned over time.
\n\nYou mentioned...a little while ago, you said something over the next few months, we got to get this launched. So there's a sign-up on the website now to become part of the community. But are you not fully launched yet?
\n\nJT: No. So what we've got right now is a landing page which essentially is building a list for individuals. Once I launch, I reach out and say, "Hey, we're live." What's not publicly facing right now is that user experience that I described. That's what's being built. But let me take a step back because we're still doing that grassroots work to where we're working with veterans one on one. So that's still something that we're heavily doing. But again, the idea here is to how do I replicate this work that we're doing to millions of people? That's what we're going to roll out here.
\n\nCHAD: I know timelines can be tricky. [laughs] What is your working timeline for doing that?
\n\nJT: As far as launching it?
\n\nCHAD: Mm-hmm.
\n\nJT: [laughs] When people ask me, you know, one or two months. It's funny; when I first started this back when I was doing the customer discovery, I was getting all this great information and learning more intimately about what the veterans community is going through. I've got my own experience. I've got the experience of people within my ecosystem. But I was just astounded by all the myriad of issues that were going on.
\n\nAnd I was like, oh man, I'm going to have something built and ready to go in like three months. And this is like January 2020, February 2020. I was like, I'm going to have something by Veterans Day this year. It's going to be like everyone's going to know about it. Obviously, that didn't happen because the realities [laughs] of building a tech startup set in really quickly. But we're fairly close. I'm aiming for no later than two or three months, but I hate to put the actual time on it just yet.
\n\nCHAD: And I think as a founder, you need to give yourself...pressure is good. But you also need to give yourself permission to not ship until you're ready and proud of what you've done. Now the trick is most people wait too long. [laughs] So the trick is actually forcing yourself to launch something that you're probably not unhappy with but actually is sufficient.
\n\nJT: Yeah, that's right. That's right. I don't want to wait until it's, quote, unquote, "perfect." But I do want to ensure that the individuals that do come to the front door in the very beginning they're going to get a great experience. And if they don't, then there's that feedback loop that helps us get better because that's what it's about. Whether you're a young tech startup or you're Facebook or whoever, there needs to be that feedback loop built-in in the right way. So that's what we're doing.
\n\nWe're trying to ensure that, okay, we've got the foundation of this thing built correctly. And then we've got these feedback loops at all the right points to make this thing even better going forward. And then separately, as every founder is going through, how do you continue to build this thing or fund this thing, rather, to keep it going forward? And that's through bootstrapping. That's through the revenue model that we've got going. And that's through some of these partnerships that we're trying to put wet ink on right now as well. So a lot of things going on.
\n\nCHAD: So if someone's listening to this and they're in a position where they say, "I care a lot about this. I want to help. I'm a founder or a leader at a company. And I want to work with Promenade." How do they get in touch with you? Where are the best places for them to do that?
\n\nJT: Yeah, they can reach out to me at jt@promenade.ai. That's the quickest and easiest way. We've got our Instagram page up and our LinkedIn page up. You can reach out on there. But the quickest way if you're like, I want to contribute, our organization we've been thinking about how do we work with the veteran community more closely? How do we recruit them? I've got veterans in my family that are going through some of the same challenges. I want to get them in touch with you. The quickest way is just email jt@promenade.ai.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. And good luck in this final stretch towards launch. And I wish you all the best.
\n\nJT: I appreciate it.
\n\nCHAD: And maybe you can come back on the show a few months post-launch and debrief. [laughs]
\n\nJT: Yeah. I would love to. I would love to. I'm sure I'll have plenty of lessons learned. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, exactly. Again, that was promenade.ai for the website. And you can subscribe to this show and find notes for this episode along with a complete transcript at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel. Thank you, JT, for stopping by. If other folks want to follow along with you, where can they do that?
\n\nJT: Instagram, we're at promenade.ai, and LinkedIn, you can find us the same way.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: JT Liddell.
","summary":"JT Lidell is the Founder of Promenade, which seamlessly matches and connects military veterans to the resources, people, and organizations that matter to them.\r\n\r\nChad talks with JT about being a mission-driven, bootstrapped organization, the problems that he's encountered and hopes that Promenade solves, and aggregating people, tools, resources, and funding to make it happen.","date_published":"2022-03-24T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/35daed26-00c9-4e81-8389-688f370b08b0.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":44429348,"duration_in_seconds":2314}]},{"id":"9f743d2b-1565-441b-800a-ebf418e0adfe","title":"414: Sagewell Financial with Sam Zimmerman","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/414","content_text":"Sam Zimmerman is CEO and Co-founder of Sagewell Financial. Sagewell is building a banking platform for the needs of folks who are trying to retire and live off their savings and income as intelligently and as well as possible.\n\nChad talks with Sam about deciding what their first product should be and what they would be bringing to market, finding the right partners, and minimizing risk to make a business and a product that works.\n\n\nSagewell Financial\nFollow Sam on Twitter or LinkedIn. \nFollow thoughtbot on Twitter or LinkedIn.\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Sam Zimmerman, CEO and Co-founder of Sagewell Financial. Sam, thanks for joining me.\n\nSAM: Thanks so much for having me, Chad.\n\nCHAD: I've been following along with Sagewell Financial for a little while now, given our cross-histories and the fact that we worked with a few companies that you've worked at in the past. So I'm aware of what Sagewell Financial is, but I'm not sure that all of our audience is. So I think a good place to start would be by giving folks a little bit of an intro into what Sagewell Financial is, and then we'll touch on the founding story and go from there.\n\nSAM: Awesome. So, in a sentence, Sagewell is building the digital banking that our parents deserve. To expand on that even more, America's retirees are a really interesting and important and powerful demo in American culture at large. There are 56 million Americans on a fixed income. And last year in venture capital, nearly $100 billion went to fund financial technology companies rewriting all of finance. And of that 100 billion or a little under, less than a fraction of a percent went to America's seniors. \n\nAnd so we are trying to build banking from the ground up for the needs of folks who are living on a fixed income who are in their golden years and aren't thinking about that new job or making new money. We're building a bank for folks who are trying to retire and live off their savings and their income as intelligently and as well as possible. And that looks really different than the bank that a millennial or a Gen Z user might have.\n\nCHAD: So that's really interesting. Right or wrong, what are the reasons that this historically hasn't been a target demographic for investment?\n\nSAM: So the prevailing assumption among venture capitalists was (We're changing that and hopefully changing that quite quickly.) was that retirees aren't open to changing. Beyond that, they're also not technically sophisticated. These folks don't know how to use a phone or aren't open to a bank that might not have any physical branch. They are set in their ways. They're not going to move branch, or they're barely going to watch a new TV show. \n\nA lot of folks who are trying to talk...imagining a grandma or a grandpa was really what the venture capitalists are drawing on often when they're thinking about why a senior wouldn't expect to have a bank with all the new features that the millennial might.\n\nCHAD: Well, that one is certainly changing, especially as the venture capitalists get older themselves. They probably realize that that's an outdated notion in terms of the technical aptitude or familiarity of that audience, right?\n\nSAM: Exactly. And it's a fascinating moment. There are 10,000 boomers who turn 65 each day in America, about 4 million folks each year. And those folks were about 40 whenever the.com boom passed. They've been using email. They have XE and PayPal. And importantly, why we're building this company now is that COVID changed seniors' digital lives more than anyone else. ARP reports how 70% of all American retirees know how to use Zoom and video conferencing software nowadays. \n\nAcross the stack of digital goods and services, seniors were actually the group that was most moved online. And so, from where we sit as entrepreneurs, we saw a massive market, an exogenous effect creating a disproportionate opportunity. And so we began designing and iterating on and understanding our user to build a product that met those needs with this massive and growing market.\n\nCHAD: Banking is a highly regulated complex space. And I imagine from day one you're looking at that and saying, \"Well, we might want to do everything eventually, but doing everything is going to be difficult.\" So what was the process you and your co-founder and the team around you used to decide what the first product should be and what you were going to bring to market?\n\nSAM: Our founding team spent almost nine months in user interviews and user research across what one director of finance at Capital One called geriatric finance. We talked to hundreds of folks, and a lot of our assumptions about what the simplest or most low-trust or quickest to use service might be were actually totally turned on their head in a really interesting way. \n\nAnother reason why venture capitalists aren't so confident you can reach this demo is a couple of companies have come before us, and a lot of them followed, in financial technology, a Mint-like model where you log in, and you share your various bank credentials. They pull your credit card transactions and bank transactions. And one of the really surprising things in our hours of user interviews was that that model was really unpalatable to this demo. They actually thought it was a lot higher trust to share bank credentials than it was to actually open an account. \n\nAnd so we began thinking, what's the highest engagement, most common accessible feature that our demo is familiar with? And that's already broadly online. And let's start there. And the original insight came with a woman she was from Pennsylvania, and we were talking. We built this kind of mint.com-type prototype to try to help imagine banking for her needs without this high trust checking account. And she was like, \"Oh.\" She was aghast that we were even considering asking for her bank credentials. \n\nWe heard that, and then we said, \"All right, no worries, no need to do this product demo.\" And then she was like, \"But I really love Chime, and I really love Chime's checking account.\" And we were like, \"Wait, you have a digital bank account?\" And she's like, \"Yeah, I love Chime.\" And it was this moment where thinking about our user, what trust meant to them, what was familiar to them, and what being online meant to them opened the floodgates and helped us really understand this user and what that first product needed to be. \n\nAnd so our initial product is a checking account. It's got a variety of senior-specific features around and enabling it. And it's built incredibly excessively to be available to folks who use technology in all sorts of ways. But we started with the basics because that's what our members are most familiar to and most expect.\n\nCHAD: So you say in the fine print on the website that Sagewell is a financial technology company and not a bank, and your banking services are provided by a partner. What was involved in actually bringing that online, finding the right partner, implementing the features? What did that look like?\n\nSAM: Yeah, it is an incredible time to be building any sort of banking in America around the world. So to that point earlier, $100 billion was pumped into financial technology companies. And so as a result, there are so many companies and so much innovation happening in banking and fintech broadly. And so starting and figuring out what vendor to work with was actually what our strategy from a banking and regulatory perspective was. And in turn, what vendors and in-house technology we needed to build was one of the hardest initial challenges that I've ever had to face in building a company. \n\nIt is still, despite what many...you'll see a lot of ads, you know, \"Have a card online in minutes.\" It is still in today's day and age quite an achievement to build banking and get it online, and servicing your customers in a scalable and sustainable way. And so we spent a lot of time early on in the architecture and vendor selection process and product strategy process thinking about what vendors to go with; what we were going to build in-house. And before ultimately breaking ground about three months after we began, we set the product itself, which was going to be a checking account for retirees.\n\nCHAD: What were the factors that went into choosing the partner that you ultimately chose?\n\nSAM: Beyond your standard enterprise vendor selection, we wanted to make sure that it was secure, and we wanted a specific set of features. In our space, there are about six different companies that provide what's called Banking as a Service technology. And so that was one of our key vendors is the technology company that works with the bank to allow us to open checking accounts, fund accounts. And most of those companies have been around for only a few years. And so their products themselves are hardening and being built. \n\nAnd about $200 million I would say has been invested in those companies last year. And so we wanted one that was well-capitalized. We wanted one that had not had any IT security issues. We wanted the underlying bank to be aligned in our mission. Retirees have a variety of specific financial needs. A lot of our product development involves working very closely with the bank. And so, we needed to make sure that the bank itself that they worked with was on board. \n\nAnd lastly, we talked to other customers, and that was ultimately the most valuable thing in our experience and not just the customers that they refer you to but the customers who have left for one reason or another. Those were the major factors that we chose in our Banking as a Service provider. And then, beyond that, that's one piece of the puzzle. In our bank tech stack, we're looking at around 15 different partners across all parts of banking. And that's the largest and most important one. And those were the criteria we used to select.\n\nCHAD: I often say when I'm looking at building a product or service, and we look at those integration points with external vendors, it is one of the riskiest parts of building a product because you're not in control of it. So from a business perspective, it's risky. But also, from a technology perspective, that's where estimates can get out of whack. \n\nAnd things can work not like you're expecting or like the documentation said or just surprises crop up along the way. Or when something goes down, your product is broken. And your entire product [laughs] basically is built on those vendor relationships. So, how do you minimize that risk and work in that environment to make a business that works and a product that works?\n\nSAM: [chuckles] I suppose the answer is with a lot of prudence, thoughtfulness, and care at a high level.\n\nCHAD: [laughs]\n\nSAM: I was actually just talking with a CTO friend of mine just talking about how in a lot of startups, one of the skills that I most ask of engineers and engineering leaders early on is vendor selection and how I hadn't seen an interview process that really helped get at that. It's a core part of a lot of technologists' jobs and particularly a lot of engineering folks' jobs. The API docs looked good but did he test it or evaluate it? Was there a third-party tool you could have used instead of building in-house? \n\nThose are the sort of questions that a lot of times early-stage startups are answering all the time. And I had yet to see an interview that got at that. So it's a really shrewd point and one that I hope that as technologists and particularly early-stage startups become more about really going deep in one area and then leveraging third parties elsewhere, I hope that we start actually hiring and developing criteria to do that with the people that we assemble.\n\nI think the first part what I would say is we described a little bit about the risks. We went through a risk mitigation exercise, which smells very enterprise-y. It's kind of the sort of thing that you would expect exists in some massive waterfall with a Jira board mainframe computer but just listing like, here's this integration. If this were to happen, what would we do? If the API went down, what control do we have, or how could we minimize the impact on our customers? \n\nThat exercise across some of our biggest integrations helped us select and take on the risks we wanted and avoid the ones we couldn't. So there was a lot of conversation about the sorts of failures we could put up with and how we could put up with them, and the sorts of failures we couldn't. And then really testing for the ones we couldn't to make sure that we were making as good a choice as possible. \n\nDespite that thoughtful answer, it was the best we could do. I would say that, particularly in a space that's as fast-moving as Banking as a Service, I would say that a lot of it is still that soft skill, that relational conversations with other teams and folks and whether you trust the team that you're trusting to execute and build what they said they're going to build and that hiring skill but also a good bit of luck as well.\n\nCHAD: So correct me if I'm wrong, but up until Sagewell, where you're CEO, you had been CTO of the other companies that you founded and worked at. Is that right?\n\nSAM: Yeah, that's correct.\n\nCHAD: So, what has the change to being CEO instead of CTO been like for you personally? And was that choice clear from the beginning with Sagewell?\n\nSAM: So far, it's been incredibly rewarding. I would say in between startups; I actually volunteered at an organization called PathCheck. And while my title was CTO, the scope of that included partnerships, vendor negotiations, CISO exercises, product. It was a pretty expansive CTO role. And I found myself really energized by the breadth and the ability to work with even more really talented, thoughtful experts in their own domain and empower them to do more. And so I knew in my next role, I wanted more of that breadth. \n\nThere's an essay that classifies folks as foxes who can do a little bit of everything or hedgehogs who can do one thing really well. And I'm a super fox. [laughter] I love doing lots of things. And so CEO to me is just like an opportunity to...it's maximizing breadth and maximizing difference of experience. And I transitioned, I'd say, from a normal CTO role to a beefy CTO role to making CEO a pretty natural step from there.\n\nCHAD: And your co-founder is named Jeff Wright, and he's the COO. How did you meet him and get started with Sagewell?\n\nSAM: Jeff and I, it's been wonderful. I was trying to figure out how I was going to get engaged in pandemic work in April of 2020 after leaving my last startup while it was being sold to Capital One. And I was talking with a founder friend of mine, a guy named Ty Harris, who is the CEO of an Insurtech company called Openly. And he was previously the CTO at Liberty Mutual. And Ty and I had a couple of lunches and conversations, and I was talking to him about how it is getting involved in COVID stuff and how I was ultimately my species as an entrepreneur, and I was going to be building something again. \n\nAnd he connected me with Jeff, and Jeff and I touched base quickly in April. And it was a little bit like a frog in the pot sort of situation where it started like, yeah, maybe we could build a company. Let's riff on some ideas and see what's out there. And it was a really, really natural progression from August to a couple of evenings, maybe a Saturday call or two, to most evenings and definitely a Saturday to oh, man, when should we transition?\n\nCHAD: You were both working full time on other things at the time. You were working with PathCheck.\n\nSAM: Yep, exactly. And so he was the CPO at a company called Plymouth Rock, and I was working at PathCheck. And not to go into PathCheck's story too much, but PathCheck was largely deploying a research technology, the Google and Apple Exposure Notification protocol. And it became clear that most of the states that were going to do anything were already going to do it. And so, it was natural to start thinking about what was next in August and September. And so, as my species does, that then became the night and weekend project to figure out what's next.\n\nCHAD: So you mentioned that this is a space that is typically not strongly funded. So was that a challenge for you as you were getting started? How did you get that initial, you know, where did your initial funding come from? And I know you recently raised, at least it was announced, 5.3 million in January. So what was the transition from those early days? Where did the funding come from to ultimately getting the investment in this last round?\n\nSAM: Jeff and I worked in the fall of 2020, met our CTO, Chris Toomey, in November actually from connection through a friend. Early on, we were a team with a demo. We really knew that we cared about seniors, and our background is in financial services. We were trying to think of a new product for seniors and so a financial product for seniors. And so, around January, we sharpened our pencils on the user research side of things and the product side of things. And once we had a clearer sense of the product direction we wanted to take, ultimately building banking for retirees, we began the fundraising process.\n\nCHAD: So were you essentially self-funding at that point? \n\nSAM: Yep. So we were self-funding from January-ish till May. I find that skin in the game to be… I wish I was the sort of founder who could think about flawless ideas without a little pressure. But in my experience, it's actually been where unless I jump in, unless I can have a little bit of pressure, my ideas aren't often as refined as I'd like. And so Jeff joined it full-time in February. And then we fundraised through April, closing a 1 million pre-seed, which is pretty common in fintech.\n\nMost financial technology companies the banks won't talk to you until you have at least a million dollars in funding. And so we raised the money we needed from...and who did the money come from? It came from Point Judith Capital, who actually had invested in Ty, the guy who connected us, with his company Openly. So we had our initial conversation with David, who's been absolutely wonderful at Point Judith Capital.\n\nAnd also, Jeff and I knew that innovating for a vulnerable population, ultimately retirees, meant that we wanted to have folks from the beginning who represented the seniority and seriousness with which we are taking our work. And so the second investor who in between the two of them took most of that million was Crossbeam and Raj Date at Crossbeam, who's the former Deputy Director of the U.S. Consumer Protection Bureau. We really wanted folks around the table who knew what innovation looked like and fintech innovation like David, as well as folks who understood the world of government and finance like someone like Raj to innovate thoughtfully with this demo.\n\nCHAD: Was it difficult to get those funding rounds?\n\nSAM: The first one? Yeah, the first one was about two months. I thought it would have taken about a month. The second one the market is pretty crazy right now. And I would say between my first company and my second, it used to be that you'd set aside six months to fundraise, and so I'd prepared for a six-month fundraise. Started kind of in early October two weeks in, and they were like, \"Wow, you've already been in the market for two weeks?\" [laughter] \n\nAnd I was like, what? I was totally off base in terms of what was the new normal. Ultimately, that round came together in about a month and a half as well. And so we had a lot of interest. The second round that 5.3 million went from not a ton of interest to tons of interest and lots of folks around the table and having to push folks out or turn folks down pretty quickly. The first round, I would say for a pre-seed, one to two months given that the idea was hardening, sounds about right.\n\nThe second one was about one to two months but was a little...a lot of people would get excited by the market; they'd get excited by the team. And then they'd say, \"You can't get a senior to open up a bank account,\" and then they'd come back. And then we found one believer alongside David and Raj, who had been with us. And once we got the folks at 25Madison and Merrill, especially, the rest of the round came together really quickly.\n\nMid-roll Ad\n\nI wanted to tell you all about something I've been working on quietly for the past year or so, and that's AgencyU. AgencyU is a membership-based program where I work one-on-one with a small group of agency founders and leaders toward their business goals. \n\nWe do one-on-one coaching sessions and also monthly group meetings. We start with goal setting, advice, and problem-solving based on my experiences over the last 18 years of running thoughtbot. As we progress as a group, we all get to know each other more. And many of the AgencyU members are now working on client projects together and even referring work to each other. \n\nWhether you're struggling to grow an agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in my 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot, I've seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and I'd be happy to work with you. Learn more and sign up today at thoughtbot.com/agencyu. That's A-G-E-N-C-Y, the letter U.\n\nCHAD: Given that you were able to put together a round quickly, how do you decide ultimately not to take even more money? What are the factors that go into deciding how much you're trying to fundraise and how big the round is going to be? And is there pressure as you're doing that to maybe go even bigger?\n\nSAM: Yeah, we had, I would say maybe seven and a half million dollars interested. And ever since we've closed, we've had multiple firms who are interested in a new round of capital. The market is really, really quite founder-friendly right now. I think ultimately, for any founder, what you're trying to do is create as much value with as little capital as possible. That's ultimately the game that you're trying to play now. \n\nFor a little baby company, it's often really hard to figure out how much money or how much value you'll be able to create over what amount of time. There's so much to figure out. There are so many bets and learnings and risks that it's often very hard for a company to say, with $5 million, I'll create $20 million in value. So ultimately, if you're a founder, you're incented to give away as little of the company as possible and create as much value from that. \n\nAnd so when we were doing our modeling, we actually thought that it was somewhere closer to four of what we needed to create the amount of value needed to raise our A. And we ultimately bumped it up to 5.3. And there's a good bit of advice you hear a lot among founders that raising a bit more than you think is prudent, and anyone who has managed a budget knows how that can go. So we ultimately did go up to 5.3. \n\nBut taking more would have meant that we were paying a premium where we could get that million dollars maybe in a year's time, and we'd be giving away a quarter-point or a half a point of the company for that million where we might be giving away 1% or 1.5% of the company now. So it's all about creating as much value with as little money as possible. And it's easy to get lost in the big rounds and the big numbers. But ultimately, it's pretty simple math.\n\nCHAD: And correct me if I'm wrong, and this is a question as much as a statement. So to reiterate, the rounds you're talking about are seed rounds. And so traditionally, what that means is that the majority of work that you have to do is just making the product. But in the space you're in, there is a point in time where you've made the product, and you've shown the traction, so what you have becomes more valuable. \n\nAnd so it might be that the next round, which is maybe a Series A, a significant portion of that capital would be spent on something else like marketing or sales teams and that kind of thing. And you're growing beyond just the product development at that point. Is that how you're thinking about this, or am I wrong?\n\nSAM: So it's funny that it's really changed the names. The round size what they mean has changed more in the last two years than ever before, and I would say that, particularly in fintech, because fintech has a number of unique challenges. So I would say that that $1 million round that we raised in May that was really about building a very basic product, a very truly minimally viable acceptable product. \n\nAnd then the seed round in fintechs is often about getting to product-market fit or just demonstrating you can reach your end consumer or target user. In fintech, it's often not quite as much tied to a certain amount of revenue at that stage. It's often about just demonstrating that you can get to that user, and that's because, in financial technology, the cost to acquire is often quite high. \n\nAnd so for a company that only has raised, say, a $5 million pre-seed because of the gravity, because it often costs hundreds sometimes thousands of dollars depending upon the market to acquire a specific user, the math is such that you're just not going to have that many users, and you're not going to be able to get to a certain amount revenue. And so often in fintechs, 1 million gets you...that pre-seed gets you that initial product. The seed is about demonstrating that you can scalably get to that end user. \n\nAnd then the series A is really about blowing that out and starting to exploit that marketing and acquisition machine that you've been building to start creating revenue. That's a little bit industry-specific. Other industries will have similar or different terms. And depending upon what sort of branding a firm might want for the round, you also might hear $100 million pre-seed. You hear those things as well. It's a crazy time to be building a company.\n\nCHAD: So you mentioned Chris Toomey, who's the CTO of Sagewell, and he was previously at thoughtbot. As a prior CTO, what were some of the things you looked at in terms of finding Chris and deciding he was the right one to join your team as CTO? I imagine your standards were pretty high.\n\nSAM: Yeah, and Chris met them quite happily. As a CTO transitioning to CEO, I think you have to understand your strengths and weaknesses as a CTO as well as the learning curve that you might have stepping into your new role as a CEO. And I would say that one of the fortunate things is that Jeff, my co-founder and COO, we actually have a pretty unique set of skills that can span a lot of different domains. \n\nAnd so I would say that looking at Jeff, Chris, and myself, we really had to make sure we had our bases covered to build the financial and technology product we needed. I would encourage folks building a company early on to really think about your strengths and weaknesses, your founding team's strengths and weaknesses. \n\nAnd as I was getting to know Chris, kind of the initial handshake agreement starting to build and prototype various solutions, I think that I was particularly impressed and looking for someone who was willing to have a deeply experimental and MVP mindset while managing the risks of working with a vulnerable population. And so over the course of December through March or April, in dealing with and spinning up a couple of different prototypes with radically different product strategies and end products, I was able to see how Chris was able to be mature and shrewd about where he could cut corners, where he couldn't cut corners and then execute accordingly. \n\nIt's funny, Chris and I were talking at our one on one a week or two ago. As a CTO, I know a little more of what's possible. I know if I come in and say, \"I want the Taj Mahal,\" I know you'll get walked back down. Chris and I over the past year...I often come to Chris, having already teared down my Taj Mahal. And I'm like, \"Well, Chris, what I really need is one little specific problem.\" And Chris and I actually set a goal between us that I actually kind of come to him asking for the Taj Mahal next time [laughter] or not next time but sometime in the next year.\n\nBecause I think one of the things I've had to check or do in CEO is let Chris do CTO's job and not internalize all the time his voice and concerns but actually put forth a vision and not be afraid about the fact that it isn't something that we can get to market in a week or that we can't ship in three or four weeks’ time, which is an interesting contract that I think we've developed and an interesting growth area. And it's my job to throw out bigger ideas, not to be the one who tears them down all the time, which is fun, and I enjoy doing that with Chris. \n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's an interesting perspective. And I often even working with clients and consulting want that because if you're only getting the small pieces all the time, you cannot be privy to the big picture of what we're aiming for. And that will often lead you to maybe not taking everything into account, either that's on the roadmap or down the road. Or realizing, oh, you're disappointed now, but that's because I didn't know that you wanted to do this. If I had known, then we could have done this in a different way or something like that. And so, getting a sense of that big picture is often important.\n\nSAM: Yeah. And it's a fun, I'd say...yeah, and growing with Chris and figuring out that he's the right person for the role as a CTO turned CEO means kicking off the ladder and actually just stepping into my role and letting him do his, which has been a fun contract to establish.\n\nCHAD: So, did you work with Chris as a contractor before committing to him as CTO?\n\nSAM: Yeah, we were in a consulting relationship. I think Chris was politely under billing. And the pretext is always that this was something that we were really aiming to build a company together, assuming everything worked out across Chris, Jeff, and I. And so, he did start in that capacity. And then I'm trying to remember the exact timelines. Sometimes the paperwork is well after the actual agreement whenever you're creating these companies. But in a few months’ time, definitely by July and probably by May, we were building the company and off to the races.\n\nCHAD: Now, is that a path that you would recommend to other founding teams looking for a CTO is to not commit early to really make sure that you work well with someone, maybe through a contracting relationship first?\n\nSAM: Yeah, I think ultimately, if you're going to be going on a journey, a decade long journey, a lifetime-long journey, through highs and lows, I think the best way for everyone to know what they're getting themselves into, the excitement, and the reward, and the aches, and the pains and the sleepy [inaudible 33:31] in the morning is by working together, and I don't think there's a shortcut. In this case, it depends a lot on the situation. It depends if folks are in a position where they cannot take pay. It depends on whether nights and weekends are free or they have flexibility in their other roles. \n\nBut generally speaking, I think that ultimately, you're trusting, and your founding team is going to be taking so many risks together that you want to go in as eyes wide open as possible and have removed as much founding team risk, disagreements, misaligned working styles, misaligned visions, or preferences as possible. My coach used to say that that's the number one reason why companies at the seed stage fail is management teams and founding teams. \n\nAnd so as you're thinking about building your company, and I can't emphasize this enough, mitigating and removing founding team risk, however possible, with consulting being one of them and navigating a tough conversation or two being another, is absolutely core to removing as much risk as possible for your startup.\n\nCHAD: That's great advice. And just like you and Jeff had a time of working together before you actually started a company together, I think it's great advice to try to find ways to do that with other early members of the team too because it's a big commitment, and you want to make sure that you get it right. \n\nSAM: Exactly. \n\nCHAD: Well, you've reached sort of the pinnacle of having now someone on your team that used to work at thoughtbot. I think I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that we have another podcast at thoughtbot; it's called The Bike Shed. And Chris started as a host on that show while he was on thoughtbot, and he continues that to this day along with Steph Viccari, who's a team lead at thoughtbot.\n\nAnd so if people are interested in hearing about Chris' work now at Sagewell and following along with the team and the work that he's doing there as well as the work we do at thoughtbot, people can check that out at bikeshed.fm. Sagewell is not a client of thoughtbot. But you've worked with thoughtbot before as a client twice, right?\n\nSAM: Yeah, exactly, both at my first company Freebird, which was sold to Capital One, and at PathCheck, the non-profit I worked at.\n\nCHAD: So you specifically, I assume, then made an effort to recruit from thoughtbot when you started Sagewell. [laughs]\n\nSAM: I would say I know and love the way that thoughtbot approaches building software. And I know and love the people that I've worked with from thoughtbot. And I would say that it was as much a feature of being in the same communities as it was specifying a specific group. But you guys have created a great culture. [laughs]\n\nCHAD: I'm just kidding. I didn't actually think that that was the case, but I can guess a lot of the benefits of working with someone who's worked at thoughtbot before because of the level of experience and the level of skill and communication and everything that people at thoughtbot have. But I'm curious, what if I turn that around? Is there a downside to hiring someone who worked at thoughtbot previously to your team?\n\nSAM: So one of the things that I love about, particularly early on, we have a hire that we just made recently. She worked at a senior living facility for four or five years and then worked at Wells Fargo for four or five years. And before, we had a bunch of fears, and this new employee listed five or six totally different fears than we ever would have thought of. And so now we have way more fears. And part of that can be unnerving, and part of that can be challenging. \n\nAnd I would say that one of the challenges of working with a team that builds software in such a clear culture is that you might not get all the fears. You might not get certain sorts of diverse perspectives or headaches because of a particular way that product and engineering are conceived. And so one risk...it’s kind of the unknown-unknown sort of situation, but it's real in startups which is I think that making sure you have diverse perspectives across the domains where you need to be deeply an expert for folks who are very similar to you is a major risk.\n\nCHAD: That's great. Well, Sam, thanks for stopping by and sharing with us. I really wish you and Sagewell and the entire team all the best.\n\nSAM: Awesome. It was wonderful talking.\n\nCHAD: And if folks want to find out more about Sagewell Financial or follow along with you or get in touch with you, where are all the best places for them to do that?\n\nSAM: sagewellfinancial.com is our email. And if you or your parents are interested in what we're building as a customer or a member, you can sign up there. If you'd like to reach me, I'm mostly on Twitter following cute animals and occasionally a good tech post @Ferrum_of_omega. And if you'd like to contact our company, you can just go to /press and fill out the form there.\n\nCHAD: Awesome. And you can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode along with a transcript of this episode and all past episodes of this season at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel. \n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening and see you next time.\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.Sponsored By:AgencyU: AgencyU is a membership-based program where Chad Pytel works one on one with a small group of Agency founders and leaders toward their business goals. You'll do one-on-one coaching sessions and also monthly group meetings. You'll start with goal setting, advice, and problem solving based on Chad's experiences over the last 18 years of running thoughtbot. As you progress as a group, you all get to know each other more and many of the AgencyU members are now working on client projects together and referring work to each other.\r\n\r\nWhether you’re struggling to grow your agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in his 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot, Chad has seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and would be happy to work with you too.\r\n\r\nLearn more and sign up at thoughtbot.com/agencyu","content_html":"Sam Zimmerman is CEO and Co-founder of Sagewell Financial. Sagewell is building a banking platform for the needs of folks who are trying to retire and live off their savings and income as intelligently and as well as possible.
\n\nChad talks with Sam about deciding what their first product should be and what they would be bringing to market, finding the right partners, and minimizing risk to make a business and a product that works.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Sam Zimmerman, CEO and Co-founder of Sagewell Financial. Sam, thanks for joining me.
\n\nSAM: Thanks so much for having me, Chad.
\n\nCHAD: I've been following along with Sagewell Financial for a little while now, given our cross-histories and the fact that we worked with a few companies that you've worked at in the past. So I'm aware of what Sagewell Financial is, but I'm not sure that all of our audience is. So I think a good place to start would be by giving folks a little bit of an intro into what Sagewell Financial is, and then we'll touch on the founding story and go from there.
\n\nSAM: Awesome. So, in a sentence, Sagewell is building the digital banking that our parents deserve. To expand on that even more, America's retirees are a really interesting and important and powerful demo in American culture at large. There are 56 million Americans on a fixed income. And last year in venture capital, nearly $100 billion went to fund financial technology companies rewriting all of finance. And of that 100 billion or a little under, less than a fraction of a percent went to America's seniors.
\n\nAnd so we are trying to build banking from the ground up for the needs of folks who are living on a fixed income who are in their golden years and aren't thinking about that new job or making new money. We're building a bank for folks who are trying to retire and live off their savings and their income as intelligently and as well as possible. And that looks really different than the bank that a millennial or a Gen Z user might have.
\n\nCHAD: So that's really interesting. Right or wrong, what are the reasons that this historically hasn't been a target demographic for investment?
\n\nSAM: So the prevailing assumption among venture capitalists was (We're changing that and hopefully changing that quite quickly.) was that retirees aren't open to changing. Beyond that, they're also not technically sophisticated. These folks don't know how to use a phone or aren't open to a bank that might not have any physical branch. They are set in their ways. They're not going to move branch, or they're barely going to watch a new TV show.
\n\nA lot of folks who are trying to talk...imagining a grandma or a grandpa was really what the venture capitalists are drawing on often when they're thinking about why a senior wouldn't expect to have a bank with all the new features that the millennial might.
\n\nCHAD: Well, that one is certainly changing, especially as the venture capitalists get older themselves. They probably realize that that's an outdated notion in terms of the technical aptitude or familiarity of that audience, right?
\n\nSAM: Exactly. And it's a fascinating moment. There are 10,000 boomers who turn 65 each day in America, about 4 million folks each year. And those folks were about 40 whenever the.com boom passed. They've been using email. They have XE and PayPal. And importantly, why we're building this company now is that COVID changed seniors' digital lives more than anyone else. ARP reports how 70% of all American retirees know how to use Zoom and video conferencing software nowadays.
\n\nAcross the stack of digital goods and services, seniors were actually the group that was most moved online. And so, from where we sit as entrepreneurs, we saw a massive market, an exogenous effect creating a disproportionate opportunity. And so we began designing and iterating on and understanding our user to build a product that met those needs with this massive and growing market.
\n\nCHAD: Banking is a highly regulated complex space. And I imagine from day one you're looking at that and saying, "Well, we might want to do everything eventually, but doing everything is going to be difficult." So what was the process you and your co-founder and the team around you used to decide what the first product should be and what you were going to bring to market?
\n\nSAM: Our founding team spent almost nine months in user interviews and user research across what one director of finance at Capital One called geriatric finance. We talked to hundreds of folks, and a lot of our assumptions about what the simplest or most low-trust or quickest to use service might be were actually totally turned on their head in a really interesting way.
\n\nAnother reason why venture capitalists aren't so confident you can reach this demo is a couple of companies have come before us, and a lot of them followed, in financial technology, a Mint-like model where you log in, and you share your various bank credentials. They pull your credit card transactions and bank transactions. And one of the really surprising things in our hours of user interviews was that that model was really unpalatable to this demo. They actually thought it was a lot higher trust to share bank credentials than it was to actually open an account.
\n\nAnd so we began thinking, what's the highest engagement, most common accessible feature that our demo is familiar with? And that's already broadly online. And let's start there. And the original insight came with a woman she was from Pennsylvania, and we were talking. We built this kind of mint.com-type prototype to try to help imagine banking for her needs without this high trust checking account. And she was like, "Oh." She was aghast that we were even considering asking for her bank credentials.
\n\nWe heard that, and then we said, "All right, no worries, no need to do this product demo." And then she was like, "But I really love Chime, and I really love Chime's checking account." And we were like, "Wait, you have a digital bank account?" And she's like, "Yeah, I love Chime." And it was this moment where thinking about our user, what trust meant to them, what was familiar to them, and what being online meant to them opened the floodgates and helped us really understand this user and what that first product needed to be.
\n\nAnd so our initial product is a checking account. It's got a variety of senior-specific features around and enabling it. And it's built incredibly excessively to be available to folks who use technology in all sorts of ways. But we started with the basics because that's what our members are most familiar to and most expect.
\n\nCHAD: So you say in the fine print on the website that Sagewell is a financial technology company and not a bank, and your banking services are provided by a partner. What was involved in actually bringing that online, finding the right partner, implementing the features? What did that look like?
\n\nSAM: Yeah, it is an incredible time to be building any sort of banking in America around the world. So to that point earlier, $100 billion was pumped into financial technology companies. And so as a result, there are so many companies and so much innovation happening in banking and fintech broadly. And so starting and figuring out what vendor to work with was actually what our strategy from a banking and regulatory perspective was. And in turn, what vendors and in-house technology we needed to build was one of the hardest initial challenges that I've ever had to face in building a company.
\n\nIt is still, despite what many...you'll see a lot of ads, you know, "Have a card online in minutes." It is still in today's day and age quite an achievement to build banking and get it online, and servicing your customers in a scalable and sustainable way. And so we spent a lot of time early on in the architecture and vendor selection process and product strategy process thinking about what vendors to go with; what we were going to build in-house. And before ultimately breaking ground about three months after we began, we set the product itself, which was going to be a checking account for retirees.
\n\nCHAD: What were the factors that went into choosing the partner that you ultimately chose?
\n\nSAM: Beyond your standard enterprise vendor selection, we wanted to make sure that it was secure, and we wanted a specific set of features. In our space, there are about six different companies that provide what's called Banking as a Service technology. And so that was one of our key vendors is the technology company that works with the bank to allow us to open checking accounts, fund accounts. And most of those companies have been around for only a few years. And so their products themselves are hardening and being built.
\n\nAnd about $200 million I would say has been invested in those companies last year. And so we wanted one that was well-capitalized. We wanted one that had not had any IT security issues. We wanted the underlying bank to be aligned in our mission. Retirees have a variety of specific financial needs. A lot of our product development involves working very closely with the bank. And so, we needed to make sure that the bank itself that they worked with was on board.
\n\nAnd lastly, we talked to other customers, and that was ultimately the most valuable thing in our experience and not just the customers that they refer you to but the customers who have left for one reason or another. Those were the major factors that we chose in our Banking as a Service provider. And then, beyond that, that's one piece of the puzzle. In our bank tech stack, we're looking at around 15 different partners across all parts of banking. And that's the largest and most important one. And those were the criteria we used to select.
\n\nCHAD: I often say when I'm looking at building a product or service, and we look at those integration points with external vendors, it is one of the riskiest parts of building a product because you're not in control of it. So from a business perspective, it's risky. But also, from a technology perspective, that's where estimates can get out of whack.
\n\nAnd things can work not like you're expecting or like the documentation said or just surprises crop up along the way. Or when something goes down, your product is broken. And your entire product [laughs] basically is built on those vendor relationships. So, how do you minimize that risk and work in that environment to make a business that works and a product that works?
\n\nSAM: [chuckles] I suppose the answer is with a lot of prudence, thoughtfulness, and care at a high level.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nSAM: I was actually just talking with a CTO friend of mine just talking about how in a lot of startups, one of the skills that I most ask of engineers and engineering leaders early on is vendor selection and how I hadn't seen an interview process that really helped get at that. It's a core part of a lot of technologists' jobs and particularly a lot of engineering folks' jobs. The API docs looked good but did he test it or evaluate it? Was there a third-party tool you could have used instead of building in-house?
\n\nThose are the sort of questions that a lot of times early-stage startups are answering all the time. And I had yet to see an interview that got at that. So it's a really shrewd point and one that I hope that as technologists and particularly early-stage startups become more about really going deep in one area and then leveraging third parties elsewhere, I hope that we start actually hiring and developing criteria to do that with the people that we assemble.
\n\nI think the first part what I would say is we described a little bit about the risks. We went through a risk mitigation exercise, which smells very enterprise-y. It's kind of the sort of thing that you would expect exists in some massive waterfall with a Jira board mainframe computer but just listing like, here's this integration. If this were to happen, what would we do? If the API went down, what control do we have, or how could we minimize the impact on our customers?
\n\nThat exercise across some of our biggest integrations helped us select and take on the risks we wanted and avoid the ones we couldn't. So there was a lot of conversation about the sorts of failures we could put up with and how we could put up with them, and the sorts of failures we couldn't. And then really testing for the ones we couldn't to make sure that we were making as good a choice as possible.
\n\nDespite that thoughtful answer, it was the best we could do. I would say that, particularly in a space that's as fast-moving as Banking as a Service, I would say that a lot of it is still that soft skill, that relational conversations with other teams and folks and whether you trust the team that you're trusting to execute and build what they said they're going to build and that hiring skill but also a good bit of luck as well.
\n\nCHAD: So correct me if I'm wrong, but up until Sagewell, where you're CEO, you had been CTO of the other companies that you founded and worked at. Is that right?
\n\nSAM: Yeah, that's correct.
\n\nCHAD: So, what has the change to being CEO instead of CTO been like for you personally? And was that choice clear from the beginning with Sagewell?
\n\nSAM: So far, it's been incredibly rewarding. I would say in between startups; I actually volunteered at an organization called PathCheck. And while my title was CTO, the scope of that included partnerships, vendor negotiations, CISO exercises, product. It was a pretty expansive CTO role. And I found myself really energized by the breadth and the ability to work with even more really talented, thoughtful experts in their own domain and empower them to do more. And so I knew in my next role, I wanted more of that breadth.
\n\nThere's an essay that classifies folks as foxes who can do a little bit of everything or hedgehogs who can do one thing really well. And I'm a super fox. [laughter] I love doing lots of things. And so CEO to me is just like an opportunity to...it's maximizing breadth and maximizing difference of experience. And I transitioned, I'd say, from a normal CTO role to a beefy CTO role to making CEO a pretty natural step from there.
\n\nCHAD: And your co-founder is named Jeff Wright, and he's the COO. How did you meet him and get started with Sagewell?
\n\nSAM: Jeff and I, it's been wonderful. I was trying to figure out how I was going to get engaged in pandemic work in April of 2020 after leaving my last startup while it was being sold to Capital One. And I was talking with a founder friend of mine, a guy named Ty Harris, who is the CEO of an Insurtech company called Openly. And he was previously the CTO at Liberty Mutual. And Ty and I had a couple of lunches and conversations, and I was talking to him about how it is getting involved in COVID stuff and how I was ultimately my species as an entrepreneur, and I was going to be building something again.
\n\nAnd he connected me with Jeff, and Jeff and I touched base quickly in April. And it was a little bit like a frog in the pot sort of situation where it started like, yeah, maybe we could build a company. Let's riff on some ideas and see what's out there. And it was a really, really natural progression from August to a couple of evenings, maybe a Saturday call or two, to most evenings and definitely a Saturday to oh, man, when should we transition?
\n\nCHAD: You were both working full time on other things at the time. You were working with PathCheck.
\n\nSAM: Yep, exactly. And so he was the CPO at a company called Plymouth Rock, and I was working at PathCheck. And not to go into PathCheck's story too much, but PathCheck was largely deploying a research technology, the Google and Apple Exposure Notification protocol. And it became clear that most of the states that were going to do anything were already going to do it. And so, it was natural to start thinking about what was next in August and September. And so, as my species does, that then became the night and weekend project to figure out what's next.
\n\nCHAD: So you mentioned that this is a space that is typically not strongly funded. So was that a challenge for you as you were getting started? How did you get that initial, you know, where did your initial funding come from? And I know you recently raised, at least it was announced, 5.3 million in January. So what was the transition from those early days? Where did the funding come from to ultimately getting the investment in this last round?
\n\nSAM: Jeff and I worked in the fall of 2020, met our CTO, Chris Toomey, in November actually from connection through a friend. Early on, we were a team with a demo. We really knew that we cared about seniors, and our background is in financial services. We were trying to think of a new product for seniors and so a financial product for seniors. And so, around January, we sharpened our pencils on the user research side of things and the product side of things. And once we had a clearer sense of the product direction we wanted to take, ultimately building banking for retirees, we began the fundraising process.
\n\nCHAD: So were you essentially self-funding at that point?
\n\nSAM: Yep. So we were self-funding from January-ish till May. I find that skin in the game to be… I wish I was the sort of founder who could think about flawless ideas without a little pressure. But in my experience, it's actually been where unless I jump in, unless I can have a little bit of pressure, my ideas aren't often as refined as I'd like. And so Jeff joined it full-time in February. And then we fundraised through April, closing a 1 million pre-seed, which is pretty common in fintech.
\n\nMost financial technology companies the banks won't talk to you until you have at least a million dollars in funding. And so we raised the money we needed from...and who did the money come from? It came from Point Judith Capital, who actually had invested in Ty, the guy who connected us, with his company Openly. So we had our initial conversation with David, who's been absolutely wonderful at Point Judith Capital.
\n\nAnd also, Jeff and I knew that innovating for a vulnerable population, ultimately retirees, meant that we wanted to have folks from the beginning who represented the seniority and seriousness with which we are taking our work. And so the second investor who in between the two of them took most of that million was Crossbeam and Raj Date at Crossbeam, who's the former Deputy Director of the U.S. Consumer Protection Bureau. We really wanted folks around the table who knew what innovation looked like and fintech innovation like David, as well as folks who understood the world of government and finance like someone like Raj to innovate thoughtfully with this demo.
\n\nCHAD: Was it difficult to get those funding rounds?
\n\nSAM: The first one? Yeah, the first one was about two months. I thought it would have taken about a month. The second one the market is pretty crazy right now. And I would say between my first company and my second, it used to be that you'd set aside six months to fundraise, and so I'd prepared for a six-month fundraise. Started kind of in early October two weeks in, and they were like, "Wow, you've already been in the market for two weeks?" [laughter]
\n\nAnd I was like, what? I was totally off base in terms of what was the new normal. Ultimately, that round came together in about a month and a half as well. And so we had a lot of interest. The second round that 5.3 million went from not a ton of interest to tons of interest and lots of folks around the table and having to push folks out or turn folks down pretty quickly. The first round, I would say for a pre-seed, one to two months given that the idea was hardening, sounds about right.
\n\nThe second one was about one to two months but was a little...a lot of people would get excited by the market; they'd get excited by the team. And then they'd say, "You can't get a senior to open up a bank account," and then they'd come back. And then we found one believer alongside David and Raj, who had been with us. And once we got the folks at 25Madison and Merrill, especially, the rest of the round came together really quickly.
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\n\nCHAD: Given that you were able to put together a round quickly, how do you decide ultimately not to take even more money? What are the factors that go into deciding how much you're trying to fundraise and how big the round is going to be? And is there pressure as you're doing that to maybe go even bigger?
\n\nSAM: Yeah, we had, I would say maybe seven and a half million dollars interested. And ever since we've closed, we've had multiple firms who are interested in a new round of capital. The market is really, really quite founder-friendly right now. I think ultimately, for any founder, what you're trying to do is create as much value with as little capital as possible. That's ultimately the game that you're trying to play now.
\n\nFor a little baby company, it's often really hard to figure out how much money or how much value you'll be able to create over what amount of time. There's so much to figure out. There are so many bets and learnings and risks that it's often very hard for a company to say, with $5 million, I'll create $20 million in value. So ultimately, if you're a founder, you're incented to give away as little of the company as possible and create as much value from that.
\n\nAnd so when we were doing our modeling, we actually thought that it was somewhere closer to four of what we needed to create the amount of value needed to raise our A. And we ultimately bumped it up to 5.3. And there's a good bit of advice you hear a lot among founders that raising a bit more than you think is prudent, and anyone who has managed a budget knows how that can go. So we ultimately did go up to 5.3.
\n\nBut taking more would have meant that we were paying a premium where we could get that million dollars maybe in a year's time, and we'd be giving away a quarter-point or a half a point of the company for that million where we might be giving away 1% or 1.5% of the company now. So it's all about creating as much value with as little money as possible. And it's easy to get lost in the big rounds and the big numbers. But ultimately, it's pretty simple math.
\n\nCHAD: And correct me if I'm wrong, and this is a question as much as a statement. So to reiterate, the rounds you're talking about are seed rounds. And so traditionally, what that means is that the majority of work that you have to do is just making the product. But in the space you're in, there is a point in time where you've made the product, and you've shown the traction, so what you have becomes more valuable.
\n\nAnd so it might be that the next round, which is maybe a Series A, a significant portion of that capital would be spent on something else like marketing or sales teams and that kind of thing. And you're growing beyond just the product development at that point. Is that how you're thinking about this, or am I wrong?
\n\nSAM: So it's funny that it's really changed the names. The round size what they mean has changed more in the last two years than ever before, and I would say that, particularly in fintech, because fintech has a number of unique challenges. So I would say that that $1 million round that we raised in May that was really about building a very basic product, a very truly minimally viable acceptable product.
\n\nAnd then the seed round in fintechs is often about getting to product-market fit or just demonstrating you can reach your end consumer or target user. In fintech, it's often not quite as much tied to a certain amount of revenue at that stage. It's often about just demonstrating that you can get to that user, and that's because, in financial technology, the cost to acquire is often quite high.
\n\nAnd so for a company that only has raised, say, a $5 million pre-seed because of the gravity, because it often costs hundreds sometimes thousands of dollars depending upon the market to acquire a specific user, the math is such that you're just not going to have that many users, and you're not going to be able to get to a certain amount revenue. And so often in fintechs, 1 million gets you...that pre-seed gets you that initial product. The seed is about demonstrating that you can scalably get to that end user.
\n\nAnd then the series A is really about blowing that out and starting to exploit that marketing and acquisition machine that you've been building to start creating revenue. That's a little bit industry-specific. Other industries will have similar or different terms. And depending upon what sort of branding a firm might want for the round, you also might hear $100 million pre-seed. You hear those things as well. It's a crazy time to be building a company.
\n\nCHAD: So you mentioned Chris Toomey, who's the CTO of Sagewell, and he was previously at thoughtbot. As a prior CTO, what were some of the things you looked at in terms of finding Chris and deciding he was the right one to join your team as CTO? I imagine your standards were pretty high.
\n\nSAM: Yeah, and Chris met them quite happily. As a CTO transitioning to CEO, I think you have to understand your strengths and weaknesses as a CTO as well as the learning curve that you might have stepping into your new role as a CEO. And I would say that one of the fortunate things is that Jeff, my co-founder and COO, we actually have a pretty unique set of skills that can span a lot of different domains.
\n\nAnd so I would say that looking at Jeff, Chris, and myself, we really had to make sure we had our bases covered to build the financial and technology product we needed. I would encourage folks building a company early on to really think about your strengths and weaknesses, your founding team's strengths and weaknesses.
\n\nAnd as I was getting to know Chris, kind of the initial handshake agreement starting to build and prototype various solutions, I think that I was particularly impressed and looking for someone who was willing to have a deeply experimental and MVP mindset while managing the risks of working with a vulnerable population. And so over the course of December through March or April, in dealing with and spinning up a couple of different prototypes with radically different product strategies and end products, I was able to see how Chris was able to be mature and shrewd about where he could cut corners, where he couldn't cut corners and then execute accordingly.
\n\nIt's funny, Chris and I were talking at our one on one a week or two ago. As a CTO, I know a little more of what's possible. I know if I come in and say, "I want the Taj Mahal," I know you'll get walked back down. Chris and I over the past year...I often come to Chris, having already teared down my Taj Mahal. And I'm like, "Well, Chris, what I really need is one little specific problem." And Chris and I actually set a goal between us that I actually kind of come to him asking for the Taj Mahal next time [laughter] or not next time but sometime in the next year.
\n\nBecause I think one of the things I've had to check or do in CEO is let Chris do CTO's job and not internalize all the time his voice and concerns but actually put forth a vision and not be afraid about the fact that it isn't something that we can get to market in a week or that we can't ship in three or four weeks’ time, which is an interesting contract that I think we've developed and an interesting growth area. And it's my job to throw out bigger ideas, not to be the one who tears them down all the time, which is fun, and I enjoy doing that with Chris.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's an interesting perspective. And I often even working with clients and consulting want that because if you're only getting the small pieces all the time, you cannot be privy to the big picture of what we're aiming for. And that will often lead you to maybe not taking everything into account, either that's on the roadmap or down the road. Or realizing, oh, you're disappointed now, but that's because I didn't know that you wanted to do this. If I had known, then we could have done this in a different way or something like that. And so, getting a sense of that big picture is often important.
\n\nSAM: Yeah. And it's a fun, I'd say...yeah, and growing with Chris and figuring out that he's the right person for the role as a CTO turned CEO means kicking off the ladder and actually just stepping into my role and letting him do his, which has been a fun contract to establish.
\n\nCHAD: So, did you work with Chris as a contractor before committing to him as CTO?
\n\nSAM: Yeah, we were in a consulting relationship. I think Chris was politely under billing. And the pretext is always that this was something that we were really aiming to build a company together, assuming everything worked out across Chris, Jeff, and I. And so, he did start in that capacity. And then I'm trying to remember the exact timelines. Sometimes the paperwork is well after the actual agreement whenever you're creating these companies. But in a few months’ time, definitely by July and probably by May, we were building the company and off to the races.
\n\nCHAD: Now, is that a path that you would recommend to other founding teams looking for a CTO is to not commit early to really make sure that you work well with someone, maybe through a contracting relationship first?
\n\nSAM: Yeah, I think ultimately, if you're going to be going on a journey, a decade long journey, a lifetime-long journey, through highs and lows, I think the best way for everyone to know what they're getting themselves into, the excitement, and the reward, and the aches, and the pains and the sleepy [inaudible 33:31] in the morning is by working together, and I don't think there's a shortcut. In this case, it depends a lot on the situation. It depends if folks are in a position where they cannot take pay. It depends on whether nights and weekends are free or they have flexibility in their other roles.
\n\nBut generally speaking, I think that ultimately, you're trusting, and your founding team is going to be taking so many risks together that you want to go in as eyes wide open as possible and have removed as much founding team risk, disagreements, misaligned working styles, misaligned visions, or preferences as possible. My coach used to say that that's the number one reason why companies at the seed stage fail is management teams and founding teams.
\n\nAnd so as you're thinking about building your company, and I can't emphasize this enough, mitigating and removing founding team risk, however possible, with consulting being one of them and navigating a tough conversation or two being another, is absolutely core to removing as much risk as possible for your startup.
\n\nCHAD: That's great advice. And just like you and Jeff had a time of working together before you actually started a company together, I think it's great advice to try to find ways to do that with other early members of the team too because it's a big commitment, and you want to make sure that you get it right.
\n\nSAM: Exactly.
\n\nCHAD: Well, you've reached sort of the pinnacle of having now someone on your team that used to work at thoughtbot. I think I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that we have another podcast at thoughtbot; it's called The Bike Shed. And Chris started as a host on that show while he was on thoughtbot, and he continues that to this day along with Steph Viccari, who's a team lead at thoughtbot.
\n\nAnd so if people are interested in hearing about Chris' work now at Sagewell and following along with the team and the work that he's doing there as well as the work we do at thoughtbot, people can check that out at bikeshed.fm. Sagewell is not a client of thoughtbot. But you've worked with thoughtbot before as a client twice, right?
\n\nSAM: Yeah, exactly, both at my first company Freebird, which was sold to Capital One, and at PathCheck, the non-profit I worked at.
\n\nCHAD: So you specifically, I assume, then made an effort to recruit from thoughtbot when you started Sagewell. [laughs]
\n\nSAM: I would say I know and love the way that thoughtbot approaches building software. And I know and love the people that I've worked with from thoughtbot. And I would say that it was as much a feature of being in the same communities as it was specifying a specific group. But you guys have created a great culture. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: I'm just kidding. I didn't actually think that that was the case, but I can guess a lot of the benefits of working with someone who's worked at thoughtbot before because of the level of experience and the level of skill and communication and everything that people at thoughtbot have. But I'm curious, what if I turn that around? Is there a downside to hiring someone who worked at thoughtbot previously to your team?
\n\nSAM: So one of the things that I love about, particularly early on, we have a hire that we just made recently. She worked at a senior living facility for four or five years and then worked at Wells Fargo for four or five years. And before, we had a bunch of fears, and this new employee listed five or six totally different fears than we ever would have thought of. And so now we have way more fears. And part of that can be unnerving, and part of that can be challenging.
\n\nAnd I would say that one of the challenges of working with a team that builds software in such a clear culture is that you might not get all the fears. You might not get certain sorts of diverse perspectives or headaches because of a particular way that product and engineering are conceived. And so one risk...it’s kind of the unknown-unknown sort of situation, but it's real in startups which is I think that making sure you have diverse perspectives across the domains where you need to be deeply an expert for folks who are very similar to you is a major risk.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. Well, Sam, thanks for stopping by and sharing with us. I really wish you and Sagewell and the entire team all the best.
\n\nSAM: Awesome. It was wonderful talking.
\n\nCHAD: And if folks want to find out more about Sagewell Financial or follow along with you or get in touch with you, where are all the best places for them to do that?
\n\nSAM: sagewellfinancial.com is our email. And if you or your parents are interested in what we're building as a customer or a member, you can sign up there. If you'd like to reach me, I'm mostly on Twitter following cute animals and occasionally a good tech post @Ferrum_of_omega. And if you'd like to contact our company, you can just go to /press and fill out the form there.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. And you can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode along with a transcript of this episode and all past episodes of this season at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Sponsored By:
Brian Hollins is the Founder of the Takeoff Institute and Founding Managing Partner of Collide Capital. The Takeoff Institute is focused on equipping Black undergrads with the resources and mentorship they need to build a young professional career.
\n\nChad talks with Brian about providing students with necessary skills like etiquette and polish to break into Tesla and McKinsey-level companies and facilitating facetime, communication, and mentorship with other Black people within those companies who are at executive levels.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Brian Hollins, Founder of the Takeoff Institute and Founding Managing Partner of Collide Capital. Brian, thanks for joining me.
\n\nBRIAN: Chad, I'm pumped to do this. Thanks for having me.
\n\nCHAD: So you are obviously the Founder of the Takeoff Institute. So let's start there. Why don't we give folks a brief overview of what the Takeoff Institute is, and then we'll dive right in?
\n\nBRIAN: Absolutely. Happy Black History Month. Let's start there. I'm a Black undergraduate student in the past, and I'm building something for Black undergraduate students today. So Takeoff Institute is focused on equipping Black undergrads with the resources and mentorship they need to build a young professional career. I was lucky enough to go to Stanford for undergrad and almost get thrown over the wall, if you will, by mentors and people that could advise me as I broke into my young professional career. And I, unfortunately, noticed that that wasn't the same for a lot of other folks.
\n\nI ran diversity recruiting at Goldman Sachs for a few years and just saw some of the mistakes and little things that people who don't have advisors, people who don't have mentors, people who don't have an older brother in private equity. I saw the mistakes they were making and knew I wanted to build something to help bridge that gap.
\n\nSo we focus on providing the types of things that I think you need to break into a Goldman Sachs or a Tesla or a Facebook or a McKinsey today that might not have been true five years ago. And unfortunately, I think a lot of career development offices and programs out there are helping students break into a job that doesn't exist anymore, and that's more focused on some of the skills that we've tried to tap into.
\n\nCHAD: And what are those skills?
\n\nBRIAN: I'll point to a few off the top of my head. One is just polish. If you've never had an internship, you don't know cadencing on scheduling or sending an email to a direct report or really focusing on your LinkedIn, and your resume, and your social media being clean and disciplined. And so we bring to light a lot of the things that I think employers are looking for today. I'll use a good example with our students. If you don't have 500 connections on LinkedIn, the number of connections you have shows. But if you have more than 500 connections, it just shows 500+.
\n\nAnd as a recruiter, when you really think about it, at the top of the funnel, they use these little things to guide a lot of their decision-making. For better or worse, I'm not sure it's a great way to decide who should be a good candidate for your company. But when you get 5,000 applications, and you need to get it down to 100 in a couple of days, there are little things like sending your resume in a Word Doc instead of a PDF or having spelling errors in your application, or not filling out some of the boxes that matter. And so we really train them on that etiquette and polish.
\n\nAnother bucket that I think is super important we built a speaker series at the Takeoff Institute called You Can't Be What You Can't See. And I think for a lot of Black undergraduate students, you go through a Superday at some of these places. You might meet 10, 15 people. Most of the time, you're not going to meet anyone Black. And you're definitely not going to meet Black people that are at the executive level.
\n\nAnd so we really pride ourselves on bringing in managing directors from banks, and founders and CEOs from growing companies, and leading venture capitalist investors and just help our students see that there are people out there doing what they did. There are people that come from their backgrounds that also weren't sure who they were going to be when they were a sophomore or a junior in college. And so, building confidence is another key pillar of the program that we really pride ourselves on.
\n\nAnd we're very lucky we have students at Tesla, at Apple, at Facebook, at Goldman, at NBC Universal. These students have broken into really exciting roles. And as we think about building the full flywheel around Takeoff, now those students become advocates. Now those students become mentors and advisors. And we build proximity for our students to help them realize there are people that very recently went through a very similar program and are now doing the things that they aspire to do.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. It sounds to me like it really is a combination of things that they might not have the opportunity to have done before or gain the experience and because they're marginalized, historically. And also just things that are good to have that, in general, aren't taught in school regardless of your opportunity.
\n\nBRIAN: That's right.
\n\nCHAD: And sometimes people who have more opportunity are getting that exposure in the jobs that they have along the way and that kind of thing. That makes it certainly easier for them to succeed later on, let alone what they look like when they show up to the interview.
\n\nBRIAN: Yeah, I completely agree. And I think the anecdotal use there is most of the things that I'm teaching these kids you can find on Google. The problem is they don't know what to look for. And when we think about fast-tracking these students or getting them into these rooms quicker, getting them through those interviews more effectively, it's almost like bringing all of these resources right in front of their face and allowing them to soak and absorb them in a very efficient manner.
\n\nSo there's a guide somewhere on the internet of how to break into consulting, and there's a guide on how to crush a product interview. And there's a guide on how to build a perfect resume or a perfect LinkedIn. But we find that most of our students, one, don't know that they should be looking for that stuff, and two, don't know how to go get it all when it matters. And that's really what we focus on, bringing all that stuff in front of them at a more efficient clip and help them build that confidence so that when they do get in front of that interview, they're armed with all the things they need to succeed.
\n\nCHAD: Well, I know you're already solving a big problem. But is there anything in particular that you do to then make sure that once these people are in the workforce, in the workplace, they're going to companies that are going to treat them right where they're not going to face bias as much as possible and those kinds of things? Or are you mostly focused on getting them ready right now?
\n\nBRIAN: No, it's a great question. I'd put that in a 2.0 Takeoff University, Takeoff Institute, but it's absolutely critical. It's super important. And we have a long way to go. Chad, I don't want to pretend like the world is ten times better than it was five years ago. But the transparency through which some of this data is being recorded, the accountability that's being held in rooms that matter, so C-suite, executive suite, board meetings, it is changing. And I'm very excited about that because I think for the students that can, and this is in every student, and I don't want to pretend like it is, but for the students that can choose where they go, they're going to choose to go to those companies.
\n\nThey're going to choose to go to the companies where there is active, positive feedback from underrepresented people, so Black, Latin, female, people that don't look like the rich, white guy that runs the company. They're going to look for that feedback. And they're going to look for companies that very, very clearly advocate for supporting those types of communities.
\n\nAnd, again, I think we're in the early innings of that. But I think that we're definitely on a path towards that being more and more important and that tailors who we partner with and who we spend time with. And if you look at a lot of our partners, they are people that care about that stuff, and they are people that are actively working on doing something about it, which we certainly appreciate.
\n\nCHAD: So the core of the Takeoff Institute is the fellowship. Is that right?
\n\nBRIAN: Yeah, that's right.
\n\nCHAD: What exactly is that?
\n\nBRIAN: The Takeoff Institute Summer Fellowship is an eight-week program, again, designed to advance and equip Black undergraduates with the resources and mentorship they need to launch a young professional career. So the first thing that I think about is what we had talked about earlier, just aggregation of resources.
\n\nSo we have a partnership with Wall Street Prep, and so our students have to do an Excel and PowerPoint tutorial within the first two weeks of the program. And that's in after hours, and they have to do it on their own. And we track their progress, and they have to submit it. Because I cannot think of a single role in a post-undergraduate career where it is not important to be literate in both of those platforms and also, maybe more importantly, where top performers are not very good in both of those platforms. So the first piece is resource aggregation.
\n\nCHAD: And this is happening remotely?
\n\nBRIAN: This is all remote. This is all remote. I started the Takeoff Institute in 2020. Chad, I hope there's a day where I say that none of it is remote, but it's the world we live in.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nBRIAN: And it's what allowed us to scale it the way we did. We had over 500 kids apply for our first fellowship two years ago. We took 50 and had a little over 600 apply for the second year and took 50 again last summer and have some really exciting things coming up for this summer. So we can talk about the goal and where we're headed later. But the second piece is the speaker series that I told you about. And so, bringing in folks during our weekly meetings and allowing them to ask questions and be vulnerable and share that experience.
\n\nThe third piece is mentorship. And so, I wanted to recreate the feeling of having a direct report. I think too many Black undergrads get to their first job without any real internship experience. And I think in an internship, one of the things you do is you make a bunch of dumb mistakes where your direct report tells you they were dumb because you're an intern. And you check that box, like, whoops, I did that I'm never going to do it again.
\n\nAnd unfortunately, when you get to your first job, and that's some of the stuff you're doing early on, it just doesn't go well. It doesn't lead to you being ranked highly. It doesn't lead to you getting an offer a year later. It doesn't lead to you getting the advocacy and support of people internally to say that you're a top performer. So we almost try to recreate that direct report internship experience and allow them to make some of those mistakes.
\n\nAnd so every student is paired up with a one on one advisor. And so, for folks that are listening, if you want to be an advisor, I'd call it anywhere from 25 to 50-year-olds with a desire to help undergraduate students succeed. We have a variety of different types of advisors. And again, it's really about challenging our students to make sure they send the email to check-in.
\n\nThey send the email to let them know that they need to meet. They send a calendar invite. And if it's in ET, they remember, oh wow, I need to send that in PT. So just giving them that experience. So resources, access to people that look like them in seats that matter, and mentorship and guidance are the three main pillars of the Takeoff Institute.
\n\nCHAD: I love that idea of learning from experiencing failure. One of the things as someone speaking for myself coming from a place of opportunity and privilege and being a white male, I might approach certain circumstances where I'm just not as afraid of failure. I'm a big believer in learning through failure, and so because of that, I'm less afraid of that. Someone who hasn't had that opportunity and is underrepresented might be much more scared of what might happen if they fail, and that's just missing the opportunity to do that.
\n\nBRIAN: I think you're absolutely right. And I want to, if you're open to it, have a little fun here. I'd love to flip that question on you and just think about what are some of the things that you would be sharing or guiding to underrepresented ecosystems to help them bridge that gap, to help them kind of get that confidence to know that they do have the right, they do have the skills; they do have the knowledge to break into those places? And it's about quieting that imposter syndrome and going after some of those opportunities.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I've always believed it's really difficult to tell people not to feel something that they're feeling. [laughs] It's really hard to change someone's feelings. And so I would put it on the mentors that they need to work to create the environment where people understand that it's okay to make mistakes. That's certainly the experience that I had in my internship when I was just getting started out. I saw my manager making mistakes, and they owned up to them. And we talked about them. And we were doing a lot of the same work. We were working alongside of each other. And so that close working relationship is one thing.
\n\nI don't know if you're aware, but at thoughtbot, we have an apprentice program where new people are paired with an experienced mentor, and it's almost entirely working together on work. So creating that opportunity. So assuming you have a mentor that's supportive and wants to work with you, great. And if not, I would say try to circumvent that as much as possible and get yourself working with them as much as possible so that you can get close to them and see them working, and see them failing, and really gain that first-hand experience, which in and of itself can be uncomfortable to force that. I totally recognize that.
\n\nBRIAN: Totally. Part of the program is they do a research report with their mentor. And so it's sort of this guided I'm here to answer questions, but I am not here to do this for you. And I'm very intentional with our mentors about that. I think a lot of these students, especially the ones who have never had a direct report, they wait until they're told what to do. And they don't know how to turn on that proactive brain. And I think it's a super important muscle to flex, especially at that age. How do you teach a kid to do the thing that he thinks his boss is going to ask for as opposed to the thing that his boss asked for?
\n\nCHAD: Well, this is sort of a pet peeve of mine because I think that, in some ways, there is a flaw in our educational system. It's centered around people telling people what to do.
\n\nBRIAN: Do what you're told, yeah, absolutely.
\n\nCHAD: Right. And so, I was very fortunate that I had some teachers that did more project-based learning and then chose to go to a college that was project-based. And the difference when you're in charge of something, and you're responsible, and people aren't telling you what to do, that really creates the environment where you can do that great work.
\n\nBRIAN: Totally. What's pretty cool is we keep a repository of all their presentations. And so, a lot of them, after the program is over they'll actually share their presentation on their LinkedIn or through their socials. And just having a body of work that early in your career, mapping the Esports competitive landscape, or how to build a D2C skincare business for people of color. I mean, really cool projects that they're very proud of, that they worked hard on, and now that they can share.
\n\nAnd, again, part of what we do is build that LinkedIn, build that thought leadership, help them become experts in their own craft because I think it builds that confidence that we just talked about missing for so many of them. And it's doing all these little things that really just unlock their inner self. I'm not giving them anything that they don't already have. I'm just unlocking it.
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\n\nCHAD: Let's take a step back. And I'm curious what it takes to start something like Takeoff Institute. How difficult is it to set up a non-profit? From when you decided to do this, what steps did you take as a founder getting off the ground?
\n\nBRIAN: I'll give you context of how I started it at first. I was a student at Harvard Business School. Nine months into my MBA program, the world blew up. And so what was a trip to Shenzhen or Tokyo turned into hanging out in my apartment. And I think similar to what you described around that participatory learning environment and how that helped you, HBS is known for what's called the case method. And the case method is a very, very powerful way to learn. It's, by far, in a way, my favorite way to learn. And I knew nothing about it before I got to HBS.
\n\nAnd the repeat experience of being presented a problem and having to choose a side and then gathering information after the fact around whether that was not necessarily right or wrong but whether that was educated or insightful and then repeating that process over and over again. You just learn a ton about your biases and the types of things that you can and can't accomplish on your own without thinking of other parts of your brain or using other kinds of tools in your toolbox.
\n\nAnd so I found myself really challenged after my first year of school, saying, I've never built anything, and I've never put my mind towards some of the problems that I think exist in the world. And I mentioned while I was at Goldman running diversity recruiting at Stanford for a couple of years, and I saw so many problems and flaws in that model. And then my youngest brother was a Marine. So he served in the military for four years and then took the GI Bill, and he's now a junior at Columbia University in New York. And I saw his journey very recently and a lot of the flaws in the system.
\n\nAnd so I just knew that this problem wasn't going anywhere. And I knew that I really, really wanted to be a part of the solution. And I think unfortunately, our generation is taught that you're supposed to turn 50 and be rich before you start giving back and before you, whatever, consider building a non-profit, and I sort of call bullshit on that, to be honest.
\n\nI think I will never be more proximate to the problems I'm trying to solve than I am right now. And I'm 30 years old. I'm seven, eight years out of school, but I still very, very intentionally stay close to the undergraduate ecosystem and understand what it takes and what the problems are with breaking into the industry right now.
\n\nSo I think it was a combination of being a student of the problem, knowing the problem, knowing it exists, building confidence and desire to become a leader while I was at HBS. And third, COVID, just realizing that a lot of these problems were actually being exacerbated, and they were getting worse, not better. I'm sitting at HBS watching some of the smartest kids I know lose internships. And all I could think was, what does that mean for the Black community? What does that mean for Black undergrads who already don't have the internship that's high paying and kind of seasons through these types of things?
\n\nAnd so I wanted to do something about it. And I knew it was going to be bootstrapped. I knew I didn't have a million bucks to put towards it, but I knew I could put something together. And like I said, when I saw the demand for 500+ kids applying, I knew we had something. And in the last two years, we've done a lot and have a long way to go but are really excited about some of the things around the corner.
\n\nCHAD: That's great context. And so, how did you go from zero to something?
\n\nBRIAN: The first part was just surrounding myself with people that I thought wanted to be contributors and collaborators and building it, so that's both students and mentors, so building an operating board and people around us to help us do it. I can tell you the process of launching a 501(c)(3) is not fun, and it's not for the faint of heart dealing with the government.
\n\nAnd I caveat that by saying towards the end of the process, I almost appreciated how difficult it was because it forced me to get a lot of things in place that were not fun to put in place. And as a result, if I wasn't that serious about building this, I think I would have been paused multiple times throughout the journey. While it's a frustrating manual, kind of nasty process, I do think it's a filtering mechanism for the government. Because the last thing you want to do is allow corporations to give people money that they think is going somewhere good and then it not go somewhere good, so I definitely appreciate that. But yeah, the journey is not fun.
\n\nI think anything that's bootstrapped...I'm sure you've had plenty of guests on here that have experience at bootstrap companies. If you can't go out and raise $10 million like some of these seed companies on day one, well, then you can't hire five people, and you can't set up all of the right systems online that you want to someday. So I think that's another component that I just learned a ton from was how do we put the things in place to allow us to do this thoughtfully but not necessarily the things in place that we want to have in year three when now we have a 500k P&L and can flex into some different things and bring people on full time?
\n\nSo it almost forced us to build a bare-bones mechanism that just went out and really focused on the product, really focused on is this something that Black undergraduate students need and want? And only very myopically focused on that in the early days. Because all of the other stuff, the infrastructure of a non-profit, the operating board, who we bring around, and what money we raise, none of that really matters if Black undergrads don't see it as valuable.
\n\nAnd so I very intentionally spent a lot of our time with the students and was very hands-on, still very hands-on. But really spent time getting feedback and gathering feedback from our first cohort around what are the things you love? What are the things we should change? Who are some of the speakers you wish you heard from? What are some of the ways we can engage you guys now that you have graduated?
\n\nIt's been a fun journey. I'm learning a lot still. As you know, I run a venture capital fund alongside this. And so just finding ways for those two things to talk to each other and to support one another. We back predominantly underrepresented founders. And these founders come from the same ecosystems where our students come from. So it's a really unique opportunity to see synergies exist across the two things I'm building.
\n\nCHAD: As you were getting started with Takeoff, like you said, the most important thing was the students. So was there anything in particular that you did that you thought worked really well to let people know about this and spread the word?
\n\nBRIAN: Yeah, I'd say less so in season one, chapter one, whatever you want to call it. Less so in that season than last season. And so what I did is I really turned on our brand ambassador program SO taking the students who graduated from the first cohort and using them to push us into career development offices, help them share on their campuses.
\n\nWe had 50 students, but it wasn't 20 from Harvard and 20 from Stanford. We probably had 35, maybe 40 schools represented where we had a few kids from a few different schools. But the network effects of allowing the students to go out, and there are 100 things on a job board at a school that people are trying to get access to these students. But there's not that many students actually advocating for the programs and saying, "Hey, I went through this, and it was valuable, and here's why it was valuable. And here's why you should go through it."
\n\nWe have a ton of our students who are very proud of the program and share what we're building with other students. And I think that that was a really cool unlock because I think that's the most authentic way to get to know your customers is go through people who really have experienced what you're building and allow them to tell the story for you.
\n\nCHAD: You said you get 500 applications, 600 applications for the latest cohort, and you're choosing 50. How do you do that?
\n\nBRIAN: We use a couple of different filtering mechanisms, so the first is the application. So there are questions in there around why they would join the program, things like do you have another internship lined up? We tend to focus on kids who either couldn't get an internship or don't have a Goldman Sachs banking internship already lined up. We tend to find that they're just more absorbed by the program. They're more focused.
\n\nThe second thing is there are a couple of questions around just what their aspiration is. I try to look for students who at least have spent some time thinking about who they want to be when they grow up. That doesn't mean you need to know. But oftentimes, if you're not curious or aspirational on your own, regardless of whether you have confidence, if you're not curious or aspirational on your own, it's very hard for me to elicit that in an eight-week program.
\n\nAnd so we really try to filter out the students that we think are excited about getting to the other side or are excited about breaking in or excited about challenging ceilings. That's a little harder to search for than did they fill out their LinkedIn? Did they submit their PDF the right way? So that's the second component.
\n\nThe third component is honestly being very intentional about matching with our mentors. So I try to find mentors that are at least somewhat lined up with the ecosystems these students want to go to. So if I have someone that wants to break into product, I actually think it's super-valuable to get some of our friends that work at Facebook or some of our friends that work at Pinterest who are in product as their mentors, regardless of whether they work on a product-related research project. And so, using our mentors to guide that journey from 100 to 50 students to make sure that they all feel like they are getting someone that can really help advance them.
\n\nAnd it's funny; it's pretty incredible. At the end of the program, a lot of them will come and say, "I can't believe how similar I am to Tyler, or Stacey, or Rebecca." It's really incredible how connected they become. And I just like to say, "Oh yeah, I can't believe it too."
\n\nWe are very intentional in the background on making that happen. But our mentors stick around with our advisors, and I hear two years later they are helping each other find a job. Or I'll get a picture of them out to brunch because they check in once a quarter. That's the stuff that just gets me super jacked up to keep doing it is recognizing that these people continue these relationships long after the fellowship program is over.
\n\nCHAD: And that's great and really shows one of the great things about programs like this, and you already alluded to it earlier, is that they compound. As more people go through it, the value of the overall program hopefully goes up.
\n\nBRIAN: That's right.
\n\nCHAD: So are there any interviews or anything as part of the process of getting?
\n\nBRIAN: There's not. That's new this year, which we're super excited about. The first two years were, again, really just us in the background making that happen. And I wouldn't have known what to interview for, to be completely honest. I think now I have just a better understanding of the type of student that succeeds in our program. I didn't entirely understand that before. And I think regardless of whether you're diverse yourself, I think there's implicit bias that comes with jumping on a Zoom with someone and seeing how they interact. And I don't know that those biases always lead you to the best candidate.
\n\nAnd so, I think we tried to take a thoughtful approach but didn't want to over-engineer the early days of building our cohorts. And we beta-tested a bunch of different stuff. So we had freshman, sophomore, junior, senior, and first-year out, as well as Harvard, Stanford, Arkansas State, two-year community college, really just the full gamut. There are 1.1 million Black undergrads in the country in every given year.
\n\nSo finding students from all these different places and then kind of honing that in and figuring out, you know what? I think if you do this program right after your freshman or right after your sophomore year, it's super valuable. And it really sets you up to have that strong junior year internship because that's the one that matters. That's the one that changes your trajectory if you go get a good one.
\n\nAnd so just learning those types of things over the first two years, I think, really helped us hone in who we focus on, and why we focus on them, and what resources we provide for them. Because it just, again, it just helps us build that treadmill to really accelerate their trajectory into their young professional career.
\n\nCHAD: You mentioned undergrad, so the program is specifically focused on people in college going to a university of some kind.
\n\nBRIAN: It's specifically focused on Black undergraduate students. I struggled with this a little bit because there are a lot of people that need help. I grew up in some underprivileged ecosystems as well. And there were plenty of poor white kids that also should get this or underrepresented Latinos that I knew. And while I wanted to build that, I also knew there's just a lot of noise. There's a lot of resources and advice and people out there trying to help. And I kind of said to myself, "This is the demographic that I understand best."
\n\nAnd instead of pretending like I know how to build a platform to help someone from an ecosystem I don't truly understand break-in, I'm just going to focus all my effort on getting more people that look like me because I know that there's a need for that and know that there's a gap for that. And I know that historically, companies have not been good at doing that on their own. So that's been our focus. And I hope there's a day where we have the privilege to expand that horizon and spend time because we have the resources to do it. But for now, I still have a long way to go within the Black community. And I'm going to keep focusing our time there.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I was thinking more about the kids who aren't even getting the opportunity to go to college. So they're 1.1 million Black undergrads. There are probably even more people who don't even get the opportunity to go to college. There are so many people you could help with this. What are your goals for growth? And how do you serve more people?
\n\nBRIAN: Yeah, I'll tell you the one that's top of mine because we're super excited about it. And this hasn't been released to many places, and so for our lovely thoughtbot community, I'm super excited to share this early, but we're building something called Takeoff University. Takeoff University will be the largest resource repository in the world for Black undergraduate students. Again, I think that the positioning is Black undergraduate students. I don't think that there's a paywall set up where if you don't have a .edu you can't use it. And so, I'm still thinking about how we provide access for some of the people you're describing.
\n\nBut regardless, the idea being our fellowship is very hands-on and very intentional, and specifically focused on accelerating 50 people a summer. But how can we build something that more effectively brings in anyone in their undergraduate ecosystem development? Whether you're a freshman, sophomore, junior, senior, how can we deliver resources to you and get you some of the things that we know you need at the time that you need them and allow you to more effectively become part of the Takeoff ecosystem? Because what we believe is we can build a pretty unique flywheel around the broader TakeOff University ecosystem and some of the content and curriculum and thought leadership and just sharing that can occur there.
\n\nI think a lot about our older students. When we talk to them about how they engage with younger students, it's oftentimes younger students are sent to them. So they have a classmate who says, "Hey, you should talk to this guy. He broke in, or he had an internship somewhere." And those students come, and one of the first things they ask is, "How do I do it? How do I become you? How do I do the thing you did?"
\n\nAnd I think for a lot of students, they don't have a good answer for that. It's hey, let me send you these 2009 PDFs that someone sent me on banking recruiting. Or "Hey, have you checked this out at the career development office?" But they don't send them to anywhere, at least in a concentrated manner. And that's really what got me excited about building Takeoff University was there is not a centralized resource repository where any and every Black undergraduate student should go to prepare themselves for their young professional journey.
\n\nAnd so some of the things that'll be a part of that are the first thing is you come in as a career exploratory quiz. You answer a bunch of questions on what you're interested in, what stage you are in your internship development, what stage you are in your academic tenure. And it just helps guide us towards some of the resources that we know you should look at. And it doesn't mean you can't spend time in the whole library but help us guide you in the early days.
\n\nAnd then from there, dynamic ways for students to engage, so building community and allowing them to share resources, ways for companies to engage. So allowing companies to come in and identify students that might be top candidates for their program. So really just building an inclusive ecosystem for Black undergrads where they can come and know that they'll give valuable resources. And so we're really excited. We have some really cool things in the oven around this and excited to launch it to the world later this year.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. What would it take for you to grow from 50 fellows to 100? And is that something that you want to do?
\n\nBRIAN: Definitely. If you had used the number 500, I might have paused. [laughter] Again, 50 was like, get it right, do it right. I have 100 kids. I don't want to speak for all of them, but I have a lot of students that love what we did over their summer and really shout it from the rooftops to their community. And that means a lot to us.
\n\nAnd I'm not entirely sure that if it had been 100 and then 100 that I'd have 200 students who shout that. I think we were able to build a very intimate and hands-on experience for our first two cohorts. And as we grow, and as we introduce technology, and platform, and resources, I think there are ways for us to expand the number without getting out over our skis.
\n\nAnd so 100 is in a very near-term goal for us. I'm not sure that it goes much past that. I think instead, like I described with Takeoff University, we start introducing other opportunities. We start putting more things under the Takeoff Institute umbrella. I think a lot like the Aspen Institute. There are so many different ecosystems and community-building efforts going on underneath the larger umbrella. And so long as Takeoff Institute is known as just advancing opportunities, I think we can build a ton of cool ways to have touchpoints with students across the country.
\n\nCHAD: Are there specific blockers you would identify? Or you have an attentive audience here, are there things you would ask for to get to that 100 fellows?
\n\nBRIAN: It's a great question. I think folks that have had any experience building, you know, call it Twitter University, Pinterest University, Plaid University, folks who have been on the internal teams that help stand up curriculum and training for employees, again, that's a large part of what we're standing up with TakeOff University. And I'm very, very fortunate to have the funding now and not be in a place where we're looking for money to do that.
\n\nAnd so we have the resources to make this really special, and just getting some of the design and product folks that might be listening who might be interested in helping build a community like the one that we're building, we'd appreciate it. We'd love to chat. You can email me at brian@takeoffinstitute.com. I'd love to chat and learn. And even if you don't have time to chat, if there are platforms that you know that look really cool and look like the type of thing that we should be mocking or mimicking, I think it's always helpful to see comparisons and benchmarks. So I think that that'd be a great one.
\n\nAnd the other thing I'd add is if you want to be a mentor, please apply, takeoffinstitute.com. It's an incredible experience. I wish I could say I had 100 advisors, but I probably only have 60 because most of the ones who did the first cohort did the second cohort. And they loved it, and they're doing the third cohort. It's an hour a week. It's a very light touch, eight weeks of the summer. It's a very light touch, but I think it's impactful. So we'd love to have some of the folks.
\n\nCHAD: Do you specifically look for Black mentors?
\n\nBRIAN: We don't. We don't. I think that that's a really important part of this experience. Like I mentioned, you don't get to choose who your direct report is. And so your direct report might be White, Asian, Black. I don't care what they are. You need to get used to having that direct report experience and building rapport, and building that relationship regardless of what they look like. And so we appreciate having mentors that are male, female, and come from all different walks of life.
\n\nCHAD: Great. And that website again was?
\n\nBRIAN: www.takeoffinstitute.com
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. Well, I think that's a very natural and great place to leave it. I hope folks will contact you and get involved. And there's so much work to be done in this area. And it's a great opportunity to have an impact.
\n\nBRIAN: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Chad.
\n\nCHAD: Thank you. You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel.
\n\nBrian, if folks want to get in touch with you, you want to say your email again and any other channels they should do that?
\n\nBRIAN: Yeah, perfect. brian@takeoffinstitute.com. And you can find me on Twitter @BHolls1, B-H-O-L-L-S-1.
\n\nCHAD: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Brian Hollins.
Sponsored By:
Kevin Withane is the founder of Diversity-X: a community to help underrepresented founders who are trying to make a positive impact in the world thrive, scale, and grow.
\n\nChad talks with Kevin about giving underestimated founders connections and access, creating a venture fund, and creating a platform via DiversityX.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Kevin Withane, founder of Diversity-X. Kevin, thanks for joining me.
\n\nKEVIN: Chad, thank you so much for having me on this show.
\n\nCHAD: Kevin, I know you have deep expertise and background in law and ethics and compliance, particularly when it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion issues. And that has led you to create Diversity-X. And so what is Diversity-X?
\n\nKEVIN: Diversity-X is a community for underestimated founders trying to make a positive impact in the world. We're working on creating a VC fund for it. And also, it's an ecosystem to support those underestimated founders and help them thrive and scale, and grow.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. What kind of support and community are underestimated founders lacking, and how does Diversity-X fill in that gap?
\n\nKEVIN: I think it's a mix of connections and access. I use the term underestimated rather than what many people term as underrepresented because there are plenty of people of color founders, plenty of LGBTQ+ founders, plenty of female founders, disabled founders, veteran founders. There are lots of them in the world, so they are represented.
\n\nThey're just underrepresented in the equitable allocation of capital and particularly venture capital at early stage, which sees many of these founders not necessarily succeed or have to work that little bit harder just to get a starting place where many others get funding a lot earlier and a lot easier in their journey. And I'm not saying raising capital is easy at all for anybody, but it's easier for certain groups of people than it is for others.
\n\nCHAD: What makes it easier?
\n\nKEVIN: I'm going to be candid in my views. I think it makes it easier if you're a white male; nothing against white males, but it's easier. There's that privilege. But also, you look, sound, probably have a lot of similar backgrounds to the people who are allocating the money who have control over whether they invest or don't invest in the startups. And I think; also, they tend to have better connections or better ins. It is a generalized statement, but data shows that 93% of VC money typically goes to white male founders. So it's backed up by data to an extent.
\n\nCHAD: Right. And it doesn't even need to be ill intent. In some cases, there might be, but it doesn't need to be. So much of the VC world is about connections, and what you've done previously, and who you know, and the intro you're able to get. And then, when you finally get the meeting, if you're out pitching something that just isn't even on the radar of the typical VC, they're not going to connect with your idea in the same way that you do.
\n\nWhen we're building products, having a diverse team of people allows us to see all the different aspects of that product and have people saying, "Well, what about this? From my background or my perspective, I understand that this is a particular concern for women around the safety of this," or something. And people say, "Oh yeah, I didn't even realize that."
\n\nKEVIN: Yeah, that's a great point. Within the Diversity-X community, very early on, I realized one of the probable flaws for VC is, let's be honest, it's a very male-dominated industry. I think they are making real strides to change it, make it more open, more accessible to females and people of color. But essentially, for the most part, it is people who look and sound the same and typically are a white male.
\n\nAnd there's no disrespect, but sometimes you can get a pitch about femtech. And while she may go, "Yeah, I can see that this could be a problem," you don't know because the fact is you're not a woman. You just don't know. And I experienced that very early on speaking to a female founder who's part of the community, and she's really trying to do some amazing stuff. But at first, I was like, "I can empathize with the issues you're trying to address here and the problem, but that's as far as my knowledge goes."
\n\nAnd it made me wonder if VCs who are getting this sort of pitch will probably turn them down. They can't understand the problem. So, therefore, they can't understand what the solution that the founder is trying to come up with is really trying to address. And so pushes it by because they don't have that expertise, and that's not their fault; it's just there's a lack of diversity in the VCs themselves to be able to address that.
\n\nBut then you hear these stories about male founders coming with a femtech solution almost on the back of a cigarette packet. And they're getting X amount of dollars to go and do some research and try and start building a product around what their idea is. And yet many of the female founders are scratching their head; well, we didn't have an in to that VC, so we never got in. And yep, so we don't get funding for what is a problem that we actually experience ourselves, and we're trying to address.
\n\nCHAD: This conversation reminds me of a conversation that I had in 2018 in Episode 279 with Alex Friedman, the co-founder of LOLA, which is a feminine products company. And she talked about how it was clearly uncomfortable for the people that they were talking to to talk about these kinds of things.
\n\nSo even that can have an aspect to it where like...and then men may be more comfortable talking with men about feminine products than they are to women about them. And it just permeates the whole conversation when you're trying to launch a product that you need money for if it's uncomfortable, or it's foreign, or all of those things.
\n\nKEVIN: Absolutely. The industry needs to change in a couple of ways, I see. There needs to be greater emphasis on VCs building networks and connections into the communities and to the founders that are underestimated people of color, female from different socioeconomic backgrounds that may not have been able to afford to go to MIT or Harvard but super-smart people solving real-life and real-world problems.
\n\nAnd VCs themselves need to look at their own diversity, like, it is not diversity just for the sake of well, we need X number of women now with investing power, or we need more people of color to invest. It's because those people bring their lived experiences, which is the same for any business.
\n\nIt's no different if you're a big corporate. The reason for diversity is the same. It's to get that cognitive diversity, that cognitive difference of lived experience, which in the end, bring into your field. It's something as human beings we can't detach ourselves from. We can't detach ourselves from our lived experience. We take that everywhere we go.
\n\nCHAD: So what's involved in creating a venture fund?
\n\nKEVIN: A lot more work than I thought.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nKEVIN: I don't have a venture background, so I'm already 700 steps behind everybody else that is doing it. Even the good guys who are trying to actually address this problem, many of them actually come from a venture background. But I'm looking out there, and I'm seeing people like Matt the VC, Arlan Hamilton, and they inspire me that I can do this. Because, ultimately, I had a soft conversation with a family office just to try and explain what I'm doing and see if there'd be interest. And they actually liked the idea.
\n\nBut they said to me, "Who are your competitors out there?" And I said, "Look, you can think of me as naive, but the reality is I don't think I have any competitors." And the reason is because we have a mission. Our vision is a world where you don't have underestimated founders.
\n\nOur mission is to grow the world's biggest community of underestimated founders and support those that are VC-ready and the right fit for funding that are going to be successful with capital. And whilst there are other companies and funds doing this, they have niches where they focus on certain areas. We're much broader.
\n\nBut ultimately, no matter how much I raised in the fund, it's never going to be enough. It's never going to be enough to meet the gap that there is right now and the opportunity. So when you say competitor, every time an underestimated founder gets funded and gets given the opportunity to really address the problem that they're trying to tackle, that's a win for me because it's helping my mission and the vision. So that's the way I look at it.
\n\nAnd yes, that is a little bit naive, maybe. But you look at Elon Musk, and you look at founders who are trying to do amazing things. And you don't really knock them down for their grand visions. You have to aim high, and that's what we're trying to do at Diversity-X.
\n\nCHAD: So I noticed that you are particularly focused on the UK and Europe. And in my experience, the investment community tends to be different between the United States and Europe. How have you found that, and has that been adding a challenge on top of a challenge?
\n\nKEVIN: Yeah, it is adding a challenge on top of a challenge. It is different. I think the U.S., in some senses, is much more progressive, much more open. It's funny, I was talking to a friend, and I was saying...I can't really talk numbers because I don't want to get in trouble with the FCA. But I said to him, "This is the sort of size of the fund I'm looking to raise." And he is an American. And he just looked at me and said, "Why?" And I said, "Well, you need sort of skin in the game. You need this, this, and this."
\n\nHe looked at me and said, "You are the skin in the game. Your passion comes through." Guys in America, people will be looking at you, saying, "You're way too small. You need to go much bigger than this." And I said, "But skin in the game, skin in the game, skin in the game." He said, "Don't tell me about that. Go big and see if people will buy into it." And that's I think much more of the view across the pond. There's much more appetite.
\n\nAnd I think for European VCs and particularly those probably starting out trying to address some of the issues that Diversity-X hopes to address, we've got to move probably and work hopefully in tandem with the more progressive, more open, more solution-oriented VC funds that are coming from the U.S. Because quite frankly, they are coming here now. They're coming to UK and Europe. But the reason I wanted to start in the UK and focus on the UK and Europe is that's where I'm based. That's where the best part of my knowledge is. Although interestingly, I guess my network is probably from the LP side, probably stronger in the U.S. So we'll see how that pans out.
\n\nCHAD: I assume that there are some legal requirements to starting a venture fund. Or can anybody do it, I guess is the...[laughs]
\n\nKEVIN: Maybe this is part of the problem as well as, the bar for entry just to start a fund is high, and it's expensive. So I guess I'm blessed that I've had the opportunities I've had in the past to be able to build something to be able to start this. But yeah, it's a myriad. And as a lawyer and someone who's even done transactional work on private equity and even helping some startups on fundraising and seeing how it works, it is very difficult. And you could be dealing with multiple jurisdictions depending on where your limited partners are. So there's a lot to factor in.
\n\nAnd then it's not just the legal fees; it's the fund administration and the fund management. For instance, in the UK, are you going to be regulated if your fund doesn't need to be regulated? Or are you going to be authorized on your own, or are you going to use an umbrella? What does that mean? So it's a real steep learning curve.
\n\nAnd I've got to admit, in my personal journey, there have been too few who have responded to my request just for help and advice, including what I would consider...I use this as the good guys, but the people trying to address the same problems that I am either focused on female. You reach out, but there's no return call. But there is one person who's a traditional fund; he is a white male VC. But honestly, he came back. We had a call. We talked about stuff. He said, "Keep in contact. Let me know how it's going," and he's tried to help me.
\n\nA couple of weeks later, I didn't hear from him, and then all of a sudden, an email popped up, or a message popped up saying, "Oh yeah, sorry it's taken me a couple of weeks to get back to you. But I just wanted to make sure that here's an introduction. This could be the partner you're looking for blah, blah, blah." I was blown away by that, that kind gesture. Somebody who just literally could have had a call with me said, "Yeah, not interested in this, never going to go anywhere. Why exert any effort?"
\n\nCHAD: That's great. You mentioned it is difficult. It's always difficult to start something new. But you're doing it alone. You don't have a partner.
\n\nKEVIN: No. I'm on the hunt for a partner. It's like dating, I guess. You keep trying to kiss a lot of frogs to find that person. Ultimately, knowing that I'm going to get challenged, rightly so, on track record, I would like to find a partner who has VC experience, who buys in deeply to the concept, and the mission, and the vision that we have and is looking to build a VC firm, not a fund, i.e., this is not a one and done exercise. This is about creating over multiple funds and, hopefully, generationally growing this to something really special.
\n\nCHAD: Well, if you're listening, and that describes you, get in touch with Kevin. [laughs]
\n\nKEVIN: Absolutely.
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\n\nCHAD: In the meantime, while you're working on building this venture fund, you said, okay, I'm going to start building a community right away, right?
\n\nKEVIN: Yep.
\n\nCHAD: And when it comes to platform, how are you doing that? Are you using something off the shelf? Are you piecing it together? How's it going?
\n\nKEVIN: It's such hard work. Who would have thought? My wife laughs at me because since she's known me, every time we go into a town, or a village, or a shop that has a community board, I'll stop and read it. And she would laugh. She's like, "It's such a geeky thing to do." And I was like, "I love community. I like to know what's going on, what's happening."
\n\nI presumed that it's, therefore, relatively easy to build one. Then I was very nervous, and I was like, I don't know how to get started. And somebody who's in the community but also just an amazing person, Amy, she said to me, "Dude, just get started. Stop procrastinating. Just start a WhatsApp group," so I did.
\n\nAnd then I invited a couple of friendly faces, i.e., friends, and said, "Please, can you join this group?" And then I invited a couple of founders that I had just connected with and just started having conversations with. And from that moment...and this was early October, and then my son went into hospital. But from that moment, it started growing. So beginning of October 2021 to date, we have about 60 founders, which I think is not bad. And we use a WhatsApp group.
\n\nThen I had some conversations and got some feedback from the founders. And they said, "Look, we need some more organization because our feed is blowing up with the amount of traffic going through it. So we need some sort of structure. We need some resources and different things." So I was looking around, and I was like, by the end of day, what can I get for free? Because I'm not making any money on this. And what can I get for free? So we moved it...we didn't move it. We set up on Slack.
\n\nBut I've got to say despite having more organization, the bulk of the activity still works around WhatsApp. But I will say this; I'm not a tech person, so I do need support on this. So if there's anybody who wants to volunteer to give me some advice, or help, or just come onboard maybe in some capacity, I am trying to build a platform that's web-based, maybe even app-based, that can help facilitate conversations, learning, investor matching.
\n\nBecause part of what I'm doing, whilst I haven't raised a fund yet, is that there are members in this community who need support right now, financially. I can't give that to them, but there are good people out there, good angels, or even some of them, probably VCs that would. And so it's trying to create a platform where we can connect those founders, those underestimated founders, and I think predominantly angels.
\n\nBut if any VCs want to join, that'd be great too, just to help these guys get started. They need to start moving forward, and they can't wait for me to get a fund up and running. So whatever I can do. So I am looking at building a platform. It's just in the question of how do I do this? And is there anybody to help me?
\n\nCHAD: If you're a founder who wants to get involved in this community and think it would be beneficial to them, where do they go to do that?
\n\nKEVIN: I'll say reach out to me either email me kevin.withane@gmail.com or connect with me on LinkedIn, two best Places. We'll chat. But generally, the community is open. If you're an underestimated founder, if you just tick that box, you're in. Come and learn, grow, support, be supported. You'll see that.
\n\nWe've had some new members in the last week who have just said, "This is a really interesting community." And I spoke with one today that said, "I'm generally very wary, particularly about being around people who have similar businesses to what I have, you know, competitors." And I said, "Why? Why are you scared of competitors?" And she's in a field which relates to sustainability.
\n\nI said to really deliver the sustainability you want to deliver, it's about collaboration, and that's what this group has. It has that in spades, people working together, people supporting each other, e-platform. They are going gangbusters on sharing information. This is what we use. This is a great book. This is a great resource. These are great people to go and speak to. And so it takes the pain and reduces the stresses of being a founder, which you've got to do so many different things. And generally, you've got to do all of those things on your own with a very few number of people supporting you.
\n\nCHAD: And I imagine that a lot of the people in the community so far are people who invite each other in.
\n\nKEVIN: Yeah, and there are other people that I've met who have contacted me and said, "Look, we've got this startup. We're looking for an advisor, or we're just looking for a bit of support," or even someone saying, "We're looking for investment." So I'm very upfront where we are at the stage we are. But I'll introduce him to the community, and they start embedding themselves in it. And it's growing. As I said, the mission I don't know if it's bold enough, but I think it is bold.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nKEVIN: It is to be the world's largest community of underestimated founders. And I actually asked a question with the group yesterday was, "How do I go from, say, 50 to 500 in a few months but real genuine people that want to be community members like actually contribute and be active?" I'm still waiting for the answer to that question. I'm hoping it's going to come next week. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] So I'm curious, given your work in, and correct me if this is wrong, but I would say a more corporate space, in your work in international law firms and global public companies and that kind of thing. How has that experience either been different or the same as what you're trying to do now? And how do traditional companies approach issues like this?
\n\nKEVIN: So I get to work with...I have a day job, as I call it, but Diversity-X and supporting diversity is my passion. To address some of the passions that I have, the reality is not every workplace can or chooses to allow that to happen for employees. In certain companies, your role is your role. And if you want more, then go outside.
\n\nSo for me, there are things I wanted to do that I don't get the opportunity to do in my workplace or in the way I want to do it in my workplace. So I started looking outside; well, who can I help that needs someone like me to help them with this sort of thing? And that's how I fell into helping startup founders. And that's where I found this absolute passion.
\n\nI think everybody who works with founders and startups is always energized in a way that incorporates the energies that sits in pockets in my experience. And you don't tend to see huge organizations. And this is not to say they don't exist; there are some that do but who are energized and focused on a purpose.
\n\nI think those that have purpose that's really, really clearly defined and embedded do have this energy of drive and innovation and disruption and even go as far as trying to have radical change. Others are trying to learn. And to be fair, to many organizations, some of this stuff is new to them. And they're learning, and it takes time, and you have to give them time, and you have to give them the opportunity to fail and make mistakes.
\n\nSo there are a lot of companies that are trying to do the right thing, trying to be better, trying to embrace their people and the issues, and the things that their people care about but as well as balancing with the wider stakeholders because they have multiple stakeholders; it's not easy.
\n\nIt's a tough balancing act for anybody in a leadership position in the corporate to say, "Well, look, we've got to deliver financial results. But also, we've got to think long term, but we're measured on short term." How do you do that? It takes a lot of work and effort, which is why I see the opportunity for startups, in particular, to operationalize this stuff early on. So that becomes embedded because retrofitting is very expensive and very time-consuming, and resource-heavy.
\n\nCHAD: Having lived and worked in the UK, China, Hong Kong, Russia, The United States, how are things different in all those places when it comes to work and issues like this?
\n\nKEVIN: Let me just quickly ask you a question see what you think. Where do you think was the hardest place of those locations to live and work?
\n\nCHAD: Hmm. Russia?
\n\nKEVIN: It's interesting.
\n\nCHAD: I don't know.
\n\nKEVIN: No, no, no. People would usually say, and people do say to me, "Oh, China must be really hard, or Russia must be really hard."
\n\nCHAD: Well, I went to visit China about two and a half years ago. And it completely changed my perspective on what China is like, and so that's why I didn't answer China. But I don't want to invalidate your perspective if China was the most difficult place for you. [laughs]
\n\nKEVIN: Actually, no. The United States was the hardest place, which is why in 2020, we made that decision, for multiple reasons, to return home back to the UK. It's the land of opportunity, but it's slipping by. They've got so much resource. They've got so much of everything. But there's such disunity in my perspective and in my lived experience.
\n\nBut if you're an American, you might see it differently. If you're someone, an immigrant who got naturalized there, you may see it differently. But in my personal experience, and that's all I can talk to, was that this is a deeply divided country that's frittering away the opportunity to truly be the greatest country in the world.
\n\nAnd they talk about being the land of the free. I used to joke with my Canadian colleagues because I was in Detroit, so you look north. You look south, sorry, you look south to Detroit, which is the only place...and I use this as my pop quiz question of it's the only place in America, I believe, that if you look south, you're looking at Canada. But I used to say that's the land of the freer because truly, I actually felt more strict in the United States than living in Russia or in China.
\n\nYou get told what to do. It's just done in a different way in the United States, and that's just my experience. But look, I lived there for three and a half years. It's not a lifetime by any stretch of the imagination. And it was a time when I guess many of the people I love and care about in America probably said, "Kevin, you are here at the worst time to be here.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] Right.
\n\nKEVIN: And this is not the real America." But unfortunately, that was the America I experienced. So it was the hardest place for me.
\n\nCHAD: I think that that's actually where America gets into trouble is by continually saying, "This isn't the real America." And you can only say that for so long when we've been saying it for a long time. And so I think it's important to ask ourselves, isn't that actually the real America then? Sort of to your point of the VCs and not changing the demographics despite saying something is a problem and working at it over time. And, oh, we've made a percentage point of progress means that you're not really working on the problem or willing to change because you're probably not focused on the right things.
\n\nKEVIN: Yeah. And you think about the United States of America it's funny, the house I'm living in is 172 years old. It is older than so many places in the States, and yet I remember someone saying, "Oh, you're living in a 1950s house. That's a really old house." [laughs] It's like, it's almost a new build in the UK. America has this rich history to still create.
\n\nCHAD: And I think that's what lends us to being more aggressive when it comes to investment and more willing to take risks. So like you said, there are tons of opportunity and some tons of potential at the same time as there are probably real big problems.
\nKEVIN: You know that saying about the rising tide benefits all?
CHAD: Yeah.
\n\nKEVIN: I think in VC, it has had a negative connotation because from the industrial gaslighting is yeah, there has been an increase in funding, but everybody got it. So the percentages of allocation didn't change. But also, America has that opportunity, in my view, to really rise everybody. Just take the education system; it should be the greatest education system in the world, bar none. The resources are there, the talent is there, the people are there, and they're hungry for that education. Heck, people from other countries scramble to get America to have a piece of that. But why is it not?
\n\nAnd I think it's because there's too much protection of certain groups and an unwillingness to be more open. But the more open you are to the different ideas, to the different viewpoints, to then finding the best place for us, I think it presents America with a huge, huge opportunity. So, you know, I'm probably [inaudible 29:14] [laughter] because really you should be the best. You say you're the biggest and the best, but people don't care about the size of your army, really. The everyday Joe in the UK, we don't think about that. I grew up thinking America was paved with gold, and I got there, and it's like, this is not quite the way I grew up. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Well, inside of America, there's a lack of that perspective, though, because when you can self believe that that's the case. And because you don't have a perspective on what it's actually like elsewhere, it's very easy to say, "Oh, we are the best."
\n\nKEVIN: Yeah, that's true. And look, who cares what country is the best in reality? [laughter] Sometimes I like to think I've got these three children. Right now, as children, they don't care. They just want to get on with people and have more friends and more relationships, and that's what they care about. But at some stage, I don't know where it starts or how it starts; we lose that. We lose that.
\n\nBut you see that in founders, this ability to get past that, and they're trying to address it. At least the founders I'm trying to support they're really trying to break past these barriers of we're different, and we need to remain different to we are different. Let's embrace that. And how can we use that to our advantage?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. And I think that to take a step back, I'm a big believer in continuous improvement and always trying to be better. And I think that when you find yourself in a position where you've stopped doing that, it's no good for anybody. And it's very clear to me that there's the next frontier for improving ourselves, and the companies that we work at, and the world in which we live is all of these things that we've talked about today. And so I really wish you the best with Diversity-Xand with what you're trying to do. And please keep in touch, and we should talk further, maybe offline after this recording, about how we might be able to help more.
\n\nKEVIN: Brilliant. And thank you so much for having me on this podcast. I'm so, so grateful. Thank you.
\n\nCHAD: Kevin, if folks...you said your email address before, but do you want to say it again or other places where people can reach out to you?
\n\nKEVIN: Yeah, so it's kevin.withane that's W-I-T-H-A-N-E @gmail.com. Or you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm very visible there.
\n\nCHAD: And you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a transcript of this entire episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
","summary":"Kevin Withane is the founder of Diversity-X: a community to help underrepresented founders who are trying to make a positive impact in the world thrive, scale, and grow.\r\n\r\nChad talks with Kevin about giving underestimated founders connections and access, creating a venture fund, and creating a platform via DiversityX. ","date_published":"2022-02-24T00:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/5c743a88-edc5-4cb2-aebe-8ccc1051c633.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":40609398,"duration_in_seconds":1946}]},{"id":"8335369d-271e-4482-890c-a29c98d2f8a5","title":"411: Civic Innovation with Jay Nath","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/411","content_text":"Jay Nath is the Co-CEO of City Innovate, a govtech company streamlining procurement through enterprise software and innovative frameworks. \n\nHe talks with Chad about how he focuses on helping governments be more effective, responsive, and zeroed in on helping their constituents whether on a small city or a big state scale. \n\n\nCity Innovate\nFollow City Innovate on Twitter or LinkedIn\nFollow Jay on Twitter or LinkedIn. \nFollow thoughtbot on Twitter or LinkedIn.\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel, and with me today is Jay Nath, Co-CEO of City Innovate and former Chief Innovation Officer of San Francisco. Jay, thanks for joining me.\n\nJAY: Yeah, Chad, thank you for having me.\n\nCHAD: I assume based on the name and the fact that I've done my research...but I assume based on the name of City Innovate and the fact that you're a former Chief Innovation Officer of San Francisco that what City Innovate might be. But why don't you give everybody an overview of what it is?\n\nJAY: Thank you, Chad. So City Innovate is focused on helping governments be more effective, responsive, and focused on helping their constituents, whether it's a small city government or a big state. And the way that we've been doing this is really sort of an interesting; I'd say wonky place. We found that there's a pressure point in government around documents and specifically on procurement. \n\nAnd why is that interesting? Because what I've seen is if you want to work with government and collaborate, whether it's even volunteering or you're a startup, and you want to work, procurement is often that channel. And it's not really a channel; it's more of a barrier, a byzantine process. You can think of this from a technical frame, creating an API, a read/write API to make that process much more streamlined on both sides, helping governments be able to find the best partners to solve their big challenges.\n\nAnd on the other side, folks from all walks of life, whether you're a massive company or you're a founder in a garage, how do you actually connect those two? So we're really working at that intersection, and it's something that I find a lot of value in and importance in. And surprisingly and maybe not surprisingly, there's a lot of need for technology to help connect those dots. And ultimately, I think what I can do is make that process more inclusive and lower the barriers of entry so that people from different communities can participate and help make their communities better.\n\nCHAD: So your clients at City Innovate are cities and governmental organizations. Are you just delivering a product to them, or are you often helping them work better too?\n\nJAY: It's a bit of both. From a product standpoint, we're really in the B2B space and very much enterprise, if you will. And part of that standard enterprise SaaS offering is also support services, and that can be training, that can be professional services to help them in thought leadership in different ways. And that's exactly what we do. So we not only have our product, but we help them through something called agile procurement. So it's really borrowing from the software development methodology and applying the same principles and approaches to developing and finding the right partner and being more agile and iterative through that process. \n\nAnd historically, it's been very waterfall and very stilted and overly structured. So really being more focused on outcomes, really being focused on getting data into the process so that you can actually do, let's say, a bake-off and get more information before we make that decision. And it's surprising, Chad, folks in government are often buying multimillion dollars, tens of millions of dollars technology systems without actually trying it out. And think about your personal life. You test drive a car. You look through a home. You make these big decisions with a lot of data and evidence. \n\nAnd in government historically, they've been using paper documents to make that decision, RFPs responses, and marketing material. And it's hard to sift through and say, \"Hey, what's real and what's not?\" So we've been really helping them think through a more agile evidence-based approach, and our software supports that. And so yeah, it's really leading a movement about changing how they think about partnering with the vendor community or contractors.\n\nCHAD: So one of the things that is probably interesting about this and maybe a little bit meta is that this is what you help them do. And so you have to go through that process with them of being procured. [laughs]\n\nJAY: It is meta. You're absolutely right. [laughs]\n\nCHAD: In order to become the vendor that they use.\n\nJAY: That's right. \n\nCHAD: What are the challenges inherent in that, and does it ever get in the way? And how do people, either your clients, come to you, or how do you find them? And how do you work through that challenging process of government procurement?\n\nJAY: Well, the thing is, since we know this space really well, we know how to navigate those different channels, the byzantine processes I mentioned before. I think one of the things I worked on when I was in the City of San Francisco was a program that brought startups and governments together, and we had an educational component. We'd help founders better understand that exact question. \n\nHow do you actually get contracts with government? And there are no books that are out there. There's no real knowledge out there. And so, we help them talk about the ten different pathways to doing that. So it's a bit of a hidden art, if you will. And I think there needs to be more conversation and more resources for founders if they're looking to go into the public sector to be able to navigate that. So we know that really well. And we're trying to really help broaden access to that knowledge.\n\nCHAD: I assume that the clients you end up getting are people who are...or are governments who want to be better. Otherwise, they wouldn't choose your solution. [laughs]\n\nJAY: That's right. Well, I think their motivations are multifold. Some of the governments want a process that's more efficient. They know that they can be more productive. They have maybe staffing constraints, and they have a lot of work, so we can help them on the productivity side. There are other governments that are really focused on hey; we need to get better partners out there. We've been working with the same folks over and over again. How do we work with those innovators in our community? So there's that crowd. \n\nAnd then there's, I think, another group of folks who are saying, \"Hey, we wanted to make sure that this process is more inclusive. We want to work with folks who are from different backgrounds who may be underrepresented. How do we make this process more streamlined, more efficient so that they're able to participate more effectively?\" So I think the motivations can be different, but it's really at the end of the day centered around this idea of digital transformation and service design that allows these two different worlds to be able to communicate and work together more effectively.\n\nCHAD: How long is the typical sales cycle for a client?\n\nJAY: Man, yeah, [laughs] it can range from weeks, I would say to months and going over 12 months. It can be 12 to 18 months, trying to get in, doing a trial maybe, giving them that certainty, and then securing budget and that annual process of waiting for that budget approval to happen. So it is not for the faint of heart, especially enterprise software within government is really something that requires a lot of different approaches. \n\nSo partnerships with bigger companies that have the distribution channel, that might have those relationships, that might have those contracts, how do you actually work with them to shortcut the long procurement process? How do you leverage folks like AWS and other cloud providers that may already have a relationship so that you can, again, piggyback off of that? So I think there are a number of different ways to try to compress that timeframe. But it's not a walk in the park, Chad.\n\nCHAD: So, in that environment, how did you get started with City Innovate? How long was it until you were able to get your first real customer? And how did you bridge the gap between founding and being in the market?\n\nJAY: That's a great question. So being in the public sector, I knew that procurement is a huge challenge and also a pressure point and a leverage point to unlocking a lot of value. And so the work that we had done with startups and government the first experience that we had was amazing. We had a startup that came in and helped blind people navigate through the airport here in San Francisco SFO in four months and truly a collaboration with the startup and the airport staff. And unfortunately, when it came to procurement, it took two years for them to actually get into contract.\n\nCHAD: Wow.\n\nJAY: For a startup, that's like dog years. That's like an eternity. And so we really knew that we had to tackle that. So we introduced a methodology called challenge-based procurement that, as I spoke to earlier, is more agile, evidence-based, and outcomes-based. And that really leveled the playing field for these young companies to show that hey, we can actually go in here and help you solve that problem. You don't have to work with a big publicly-traded company to do this work and spend a lot of money. We can be more nimble and agile. And so that's really where I started to dig in deeper into procurement. \n\nAnd that work got federally funded because it created a lot of jobs. And we've had hundreds of startups all across the U.S. It's an international program called STIR, Startup In Residence, and really proud of that work. Our mayor, unfortunately, died unexpectedly. So we looked at hey, where do we move this program? And it did make sense for a city to manage a multi-city program, and so City Innovate came to mind. \n\nAt the time, they were a non-profit. I'd been working with my co-CEO co-executive director at the time. It was a nice, beautiful transition into that. And at that time, I said for myself personally, where do I see impact, and what can I do? And for me, the idea of entrepreneurship, the idea of products making impact in government, I saw how much impact was being made. And so City Innovate has really become that vehicle for myself and the organization to really scale that idea out.\n\nCHAD: You mentioned you have a co-CEO. How did that come about? And how do you split the responsibilities between the two of you? \n\nJAY: Well, the good thing is we're really great complements. So his focus is really on go-to-market and focusing on how do we get this in the hands of our customers or prospective customers? And I've always been very interested on the product side. I was formerly a VP of product at a startup before my time in government, and so that scenario I find keen interest. And I deeply understand the personas and the use cases of government, having spent a lot of time there. \n\nAnd so that empathy and understanding and building a product around that and having somebody who can help get that product in the hands of government navigating through those difficult processes. It really does take that. You can have a great product, but without that ability to get it in the hands of your customers, especially with governments, it's really challenging.\n\nCHAD: Is there any in particular...like, why Co-CEO and not two other C-level roles, one of you CEO, one of you CIO?\n\nJAY: I don't think we've spent too much time debating that. And that might change, I think to your point to better describe our focus areas. Maybe my role changes to chief product officer and his to a different role title. I think if you're starting a company, you've got a lot of things to worry about. And it just seemed like a...yeah, I don't think there was much thought in it.\n\nCHAD: Yeah. That's interesting, though. You alluded to what you were doing before the City of San Francisco. Well, let's dive into that a little bit more. And specifically, what were you doing, and then why did you join the public sector?\n\nJAY: So I was VP of Product at a company called SquareTrade. It was a wonderful journey. We were working with, again, something kind of wonky and a space that was anti-consumer. It was around warranties, specifically electronic warranties. And we were in the eBay marketplace and expanded way beyond that in later years. But when I was there, we really took a contrarian perspective and being inspired by Zappos and many companies that are really focused on the consumer. \n\nWe changed that value proposition to say, hey, can we build a product that people love, a warranty that actually works? And so we did crazy things like we would actually give you the money before you returned the product. We would have the shipping label. And we wouldn't ask any questions. We did amazing things. But that wasn't just because we were focused on the user experience. We also had data to back it up. \n\nWe knew that, hey, there are a certain percentage of people who are going to return rocks. And there's a certain percentage of people who are going to do certain things. So we had a lot of information going in. The other thing we knew is that we could own the whole stack, the underwriting, the retailing. And we also knew the business. So that was a great experience.\n\nBut I really was missing this connection to the public good and doing something that was having impact in a really tangible way. That's when I saw why don't I work for a city I love deeply and care about? And that really drove me into thinking about public service. I had some friends who were in it, and they convinced me that I should take a look at that. \n\nAnd I definitely have found the work that I had been doing in public service to be extremely rewarding and just a unique opportunity. Especially if you're a technologist or a product mindset or an engineering mindset, that is such a rare perspective in government, and being able to bring that in, you can do amazing things.\n\nWe all know the healthcare.gov and how that was imploding and exploding. It almost brought down a presidency and administration, and it was saved. I think many people know the story, especially in your audience. That was really folks in Silicon Valley saying, \"Hey, I'm going to raise my hand and volunteer my time. I might be working at a big company and making a lot of money, but I will take my time out and try to help.\" And they did. They turned it around. \n\nAnd I think that ethos and that mindset of giving back is something that's animated my interests in public sector and the fact that there's so much need, especially from the tech community, in helping the government out.\n\nCHAD: Now, you didn't get started as the City Innovation Officer. [chuckles] So you got started as the Manager of Enterprise CRM for the City of San Francisco. \n\nJAY: That's right. Yeah, it was interesting. Yeah, definitely. \n\nCHAD: I think that public sector work is maybe a little bit of a black box for people. I know it is for me. You mentioned you knew some people, but I assume that was not a political appointment job.\n\nJAY: It was not. \n\nCHAD: So, how does one get into that, find it, and get that job and that kind of thing?\n\nJAY: I think I took a very rare and uncommon path. So as you noted, I came in helping stand up a call center. So a 311 one call center which is, for the folks who don't know, 311 is for non-emergencies, potholes, et cetera, starting a business, how do I do that? So yeah, set up a CRM system 24/7. It was a great experience and actually much harder than I thought. I was working harder there than I had at the startup, so breaking some stereotypes or at least some ideas that I had in my mind. \n\nBut I quickly found myself saturating that opportunity and saying, hey, what do I want to do? And this was at the time that Obama had just come into office, and he had a call to action. His first memo in office was around openness and collaboration and that I felt was really compelling to me. I had the opportunity to say, \"Hey, let me reach out to folks in White House. I don't have any relationships there, but I have this badge of San Francisco.\" And that started me on a journey of innovation, civic innovation. \n\nAnd I did some really interesting things with great startups like Twitter at the time. We created a read/write API, the first of its kind in local government. Almost got fired by the [inaudible 16:45] [laughter] and trying to explain just like, why are you opening a channel into government to let people do horrible things? And so it was an interesting conversation. But Gavin Newsom was the mayor at the time then, so you can see it's going back in time. \n\nCHAD: [laughs]\n\nJAY: But my journey then sort of said, hey, let's continue building data standards and doing good work. And I was recognized by the mayoral campaigns that were running. And so they wanted to sort of say, \"Hey, we need somebody in innovation in the mayor's office.\" So I got recruited into that role, the first of its kind in San Francisco and in the U.S. \n\nSo it was just a great opportunity to really help define and set a foundation for what does civic innovation mean? What does that look like? And we had a small office, and we did some really interesting work at the nexus of collaboration. That's really what I think is what we tried to do is make government more permeable, more accessible for people who are driving innovation in their communities to be able to participate in government.\n\nMid-roll Ad\n\nI wanted to tell you all about something I've been working on quietly for the past year or so, and that's AgencyU. AgencyU is a membership-based program where I work one-on-one with a small group of agency founders and leaders toward their business goals. \n\nWe do one-on-one coaching sessions and also monthly group meetings. We start with goal setting, advice, and problem-solving based on my experiences over the last 18 years of running thoughtbot. As we progress as a group, we all get to know each other more. And many of the AgencyU members are now working on client projects together and even referring work to each other. \n\nWhether you're struggling to grow an agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in my 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot, I've seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and I'd be happy to work with you. Learn more and sign up today at thoughtbot.com/agencyu. That's A-G-E-N-C-Y, the letter U.\n\nCHAD: If someone's interested, how might they get involved in contributing to the public sector?\n\nJAY: I think there's a couple of different ways. So one way, Chad, is that governments are often putting a lot of data out there. There has been an open data movement that we had led, and it's now a national global movement. So you can find data, and you can create a data product around that and giving more insight into visibility and into issues. You can volunteer with a specific department. They're looking for those skill sets, so you can do that. \n\nYou can also look for digital services offices. So those are becoming much more commonplace in governments if that's your thing. There are definitely ways to raise your hand and try to contribute. Folks are always looking for it. And if you don't see that opportunity, make that opportunity happen. Reach out to your council member. Reach out to a department head and say, \"Hey, I've got this great superpower. I want to help you do better.\" And I guarantee they will listen because they're often strapped for resources.\n\nCHAD: How do you know when you should pursue a more general product that might be useful to governments versus like, oh, if I could get in there and contribute? How do you make that distinction in your mind?\n\nJAY: Well, I don't think there needs to be. So you can come in and have maybe a frame of hey, let me help my local government. And you might find opportunities while you're working there. They're using Microsoft Word and Excel to do something that really should be productized so you can think about it from that frame. Or you might have built a product for an adjacent market or for another need and say, \"Hey, is there an opportunity to actually reframe this product that I have in the government context?\" It might be a content management system. It might be a lot of different products can be reframed in that context. \n\nSo the way that we actually became a product company from a non-profit was just doing that. We got invited to bring our methodology of agile procurement. And so we had in the back of our mind this idea that I bet if we go there, it's going to be kind of dusty. There's going to be a lot of broken tools, and that was the case. They were using 40-year old technology to manage sometimes billions of dollars of purchasing. And so we saw something that you normally wouldn't have that vantage point by really collaborating and working with them. And that led to product ideas, and that we were able to co-design and co-develop that with our partner governments. \n\nAnd then something that I think is also unique is that they're often eager to work with you because they don't get that opportunity often to work with vendors and folks who can conjure magic in their minds, that they have a vision or idea. And you can come back in a week or a month, and you might have a working product, not just wireframes. And for them, that ability to move so quickly they haven't seen that before.\n\nAnd I saw that firsthand in bringing startups and governments together, the velocity and speed that startups can work with is so different. We all know that. But when they see that, they get excited. They want to work with them. They want to lean into it and figure out, hey, can I give you data? Can I give you other ways to better understand the space? Because no one's cared about this space before. So there's often a willingness to grab a hold of anyone who can actually help them solve their problems. But you have to listen, and you have to come in humble. \n\nAnd I'll share a story here. I created a program called Civic Bridge that brought in pro bono services from big companies like Google and McKinsey, and many others. And some folks from Google came in, and they were sharing how they have to serve everybody. Their product is really ubiquitous and has to serve everybody. They quickly got reminded that government has to serve everybody, people who don't have technology, people who aren't online, people who don't have English as their first language, and people with different disabilities. All of them are constituents. \n\nAnd so technology is one way to reach people. But you have to think broadly about how do you make that service or what you're offering accessible to everybody? And I think that was a humbling experience for the folks there at the table. But what I loved about that program is really this cross-pollination and also breaking down stereotypes in both directions that people sometimes have in the public sector of private sector folks because they often don't hop back and forth. If you're a public sector person, you're often in the public sector. \n\nAnd so being able to actually see that they're not just a bunch of capitalists, [laughs] that they're your neighbor, that these are people who do care about the community, and they're making an impact in a different way. And vice versa, that there are so many talented people in government. And the problems seem simple or seem simple to solve on the outside, but they're often wicked problems or just have a lot of complexity to try to solve. So it's great to be able to have that empathy on both sides.\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's maybe one thing. Are there other things that you would point out that are different when creating and shaping products for the public sector versus the private products?\n\nJAY: Yeah, I think that idea of being inclusive is really important. The other one is around...and this is, I think, true even in the private sector but more so in the public sector because of the demographics that you're working with. The demographics are folks who are closer to retirement. They are not digital natives. So when you're building products, you really need to leverage mental models and use that as a way to bring them into a new experience or a new tool. And as an example, there are obviously a lot of government forms that you see, right?\n\nCHAD: Mm-hmm.\n\nJAY: And I think as a technologist or a product person, you might say, hey, let's move away from Microsoft Word or Adobe PDF or whatever you're using. We have this thing called HTML, and we can bring this online and have all these beautiful affordances. Well, that's really hard for those folks to wrap their heads around and move from something they may have been using for 20, 30 years. \n\nAnd so maybe that first step is not that; maybe it's online fillable PDFs that you can actually store the data in a database and shift that back. And maybe that allows them to actually move more quickly because there's less resistance both internally and for the public as well. And so we've seen that time and time again, is that hey, is there a way to make that shift into a new paradigm but do it in such a way that there's a clear connection point?\n\nAnd then maybe the next step after that is, yeah, we need to make sure this is mobile-ready. Let's actually make that into a responsive design and move away from that PDF. And that's something that we've learned in our own product that, hey, we need to understand deeply the products and tools that they're using today. And how do we draw those parallels and bring them into the current modern set of technologies that we're offering? So it's not always easy, but it's something that we found a lot of success leveraging those mental models.\n\nCHAD: Are there other things that you might call out as things you got to keep in mind?\n\nJAY: Well, security is often, you know, we see that everywhere with SolarWinds, et cetera. I think there's just a deeper concern of supply chain attacks, ransomware, et cetera. So you're seeing, I think across the board in enterprise as well but in government even more so really focusing on that. And I think the challenge for folks who are building products is how do you find that balance when you have to make sure that you're NIST-certified and all of the SOC 2, et cetera? How do you build a great product that is accessible that doesn't make you go through a bunch of hoops to try to get access to it? And it's not easy. \n\nSo that adds a layer of complexity trying to build that out. And, Chad, I'm sure you've worked with a lot of folks who have thought about government or may have had some success with it. So it might be interesting to hear from you if there are certain patterns or product sensibilities that you've seen that have been successfully applied in the public sector realm.\n\nCHAD: Well, I think you're right about that inherent complexity or that the bar is pretty high in order to have a product which is accessible and secure. If you're building a product for consumers, you can do some of that stuff iteratively. It can be difficult to work in an agile, iterative way in a highly regulated space. And so there's maybe not even one set way that you do that. It might be different for the space that you operate in. \n\nBut it is important to take a step back and say, what can we do iteratively, or what can we leave off right now because we have to do this other thing? And those will be different for every product. And I see the real mistake being not taking that step back and not really being thoughtful about how you're going to do that in the complex, highly regulated space. \n\nAnd this is true for healthcare and finance as well. There are certain things you've got to do. And really, you have to approach it pretty thoughtfully in order to make sure you can still work and not just default to doing everything agile. We have this concept of like the 80-20 rule, and that is sometimes really difficult to do in the public space, right?\n\nJAY: I think you're absolutely right. And I think people recognize that highly regulated markets or industries are tough to crack. And I think you're absolutely right, Chad, that you have to find that entry point where maybe you can come in and the regulations are lower for that problem that you're solving initially. And use that as a place to land and then better understand where you fit into the overall workflow. And you're able to go upstream and downstream from there. \n\nAnd that's a lot of what we've seen success with these young startups, and the work we're doing will come in where there's maybe not so much regulations and provide value there, build trust, and then look at the broader ecosystem or processes to say, \"Hey, where can we add more value?\" Yes, it might be highly regulated. But we now have a better understanding, more resources, and customers to help us educate climbing that mountain together. \n\nBut yeah, I want to make sure that...the flip side of all this...so if I were listening, I'd say, \"Well, it sounds like the public sector is really tough,\" [laughter] and it is, but it's also truly rewarding. I think being able to know that you're able to help at the scale that the government does its work is really, really rewarding. \n\nOne of the founders that we helped get her first product was to help foster kids, and that foster process that we've probably all heard is really, really tough. And they brought that online, and they went from one city...they're in so many different states now serving so many people across the U.S., and they're doing really well. They're, I think, Series B or C. And it's amazing. But it took that one government to take a chance and to be able to bring all this value. So that's something that excites me is the level of impact is so significant.\n\nCHAD: On that note, you started the conversation saying that procurement was the area where you felt like you could have an impact. Do you see expanding beyond that in the future, or is that not on your roadmap?\n\nJAY: I think we have a lot to chew on. But like a lot of product folks, we've got ideas that are further out. What I'm seeing in the government space when we talk about digital transformation...in the government context, you're often talking about PDFs and Microsoft Word documents, et cetera. \n\nSo I think for us, we're really excited about is there a new way to think about documents in a way that works for governments? They're used to Microsoft Word. But is there more that can be done there to create more affordances, to create more powers that they just don't have today? And they're using Post-it Notes or whatever it might be to try to address those shortcomings.\n\nCHAD: Everything is going to be marked down in GitHub eventually. [laughter]\n\nJAY: Yes, we do need to introduce Markdown or just plain text, maybe. Why are these contracts locked up in Microsoft Word? Yeah, that's something that's a pet peeve of mine as well. I spend a lot of time in open data. And let's not use proprietary formats. Let's use something that folks understand. But the world is changing, which is great. We're seeing more governments using JSON. \n\nAnd one of the things that I'll share is that when you're building a product for government, you do have to think about the data component because that data doesn't belong to you; you're really stewards. That data belongs to the government and its constituents. So that's a different way of thinking because often, private companies are trying to monetize the data that they're having. So you have to have a much more sort of a frame that you're a custodian.\n\nCHAD: I think that's one of the things that can get a little lost, whether it be bureaucracy or politics or whatever but this idea that there is a community here. It is the community in which you live. You said that what inspired you to get involved was wanting to contribute back to a city that you love. It's easy for that to get lost in everything.\n\nJAY: Yeah. And that's my call to action to your audiences. Sort of touching upon our earlier points in our conversation, find a way if you have that means, and ability, and interest to make your community better. It might be something just for your city, or it might be something bigger. And I've seen so many people have good ideas. But to your point, how do you actually convert that good idea into something that's valuable and used by the community? \n\nAnd hopefully, this conversation is helping people and inspiring them to raise their hands and knock on the door. I think you'll see folks on the other side giving you a warm reception. They're very hungry and eager for people who have the capabilities of product and engineering and that type of talent to come to the table and help them.\n\nCHAD: That's great. If folks want to get in touch with you or find out more about City Innovate or STIR, too, where are the places where they can do that?\n\nJAY: They can go to our website cityinnovate.com. They can also go...I've got my own personal website, jaynath.com. And I'm very open. I have been since my days in public service. I'm still very accessible, maybe not as responsive as I used to be, just with all that work of being a founder. But if you're interested in this space, I always want to give back because we need great people with great talent working in the public sector, whether it's for government or within government or building a product for government.\n\nCHAD: Awesome. Jay, thanks very much for stopping by and sharing with us.\n\nJAY: Thank you so much, Chad, for the opportunity to share the work that we're doing.\n\nCHAD: You can subscribe to the show and find notes and a transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel.\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening and see you next time\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.Special Guest: Jay Nath.Sponsored By:AgencyU: AgencyU is a membership-based program where Chad Pytel works one on one with a small group of Agency founders and leaders toward their business goals. You'll do one-on-one coaching sessions and also monthly group meetings. You'll start with goal setting, advice, and problem solving based on Chad's experiences over the last 18 years of running thoughtbot. As you progress as a group, you all get to know each other more and many of the AgencyU members are now working on client projects together and referring work to each other.\r\n\r\nWhether you’re struggling to grow your agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in his 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot, Chad has seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and would be happy to work with you too.\r\n\r\nLearn more and sign up at thoughtbot.com/agencyu","content_html":"Jay Nath is the Co-CEO of City Innovate, a govtech company streamlining procurement through enterprise software and innovative frameworks.
\n\nHe talks with Chad about how he focuses on helping governments be more effective, responsive, and zeroed in on helping their constituents whether on a small city or a big state scale.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel, and with me today is Jay Nath, Co-CEO of City Innovate and former Chief Innovation Officer of San Francisco. Jay, thanks for joining me.
\n\nJAY: Yeah, Chad, thank you for having me.
\n\nCHAD: I assume based on the name and the fact that I've done my research...but I assume based on the name of City Innovate and the fact that you're a former Chief Innovation Officer of San Francisco that what City Innovate might be. But why don't you give everybody an overview of what it is?
\n\nJAY: Thank you, Chad. So City Innovate is focused on helping governments be more effective, responsive, and focused on helping their constituents, whether it's a small city government or a big state. And the way that we've been doing this is really sort of an interesting; I'd say wonky place. We found that there's a pressure point in government around documents and specifically on procurement.
\n\nAnd why is that interesting? Because what I've seen is if you want to work with government and collaborate, whether it's even volunteering or you're a startup, and you want to work, procurement is often that channel. And it's not really a channel; it's more of a barrier, a byzantine process. You can think of this from a technical frame, creating an API, a read/write API to make that process much more streamlined on both sides, helping governments be able to find the best partners to solve their big challenges.
\n\nAnd on the other side, folks from all walks of life, whether you're a massive company or you're a founder in a garage, how do you actually connect those two? So we're really working at that intersection, and it's something that I find a lot of value in and importance in. And surprisingly and maybe not surprisingly, there's a lot of need for technology to help connect those dots. And ultimately, I think what I can do is make that process more inclusive and lower the barriers of entry so that people from different communities can participate and help make their communities better.
\n\nCHAD: So your clients at City Innovate are cities and governmental organizations. Are you just delivering a product to them, or are you often helping them work better too?
\n\nJAY: It's a bit of both. From a product standpoint, we're really in the B2B space and very much enterprise, if you will. And part of that standard enterprise SaaS offering is also support services, and that can be training, that can be professional services to help them in thought leadership in different ways. And that's exactly what we do. So we not only have our product, but we help them through something called agile procurement. So it's really borrowing from the software development methodology and applying the same principles and approaches to developing and finding the right partner and being more agile and iterative through that process.
\n\nAnd historically, it's been very waterfall and very stilted and overly structured. So really being more focused on outcomes, really being focused on getting data into the process so that you can actually do, let's say, a bake-off and get more information before we make that decision. And it's surprising, Chad, folks in government are often buying multimillion dollars, tens of millions of dollars technology systems without actually trying it out. And think about your personal life. You test drive a car. You look through a home. You make these big decisions with a lot of data and evidence.
\n\nAnd in government historically, they've been using paper documents to make that decision, RFPs responses, and marketing material. And it's hard to sift through and say, "Hey, what's real and what's not?" So we've been really helping them think through a more agile evidence-based approach, and our software supports that. And so yeah, it's really leading a movement about changing how they think about partnering with the vendor community or contractors.
\n\nCHAD: So one of the things that is probably interesting about this and maybe a little bit meta is that this is what you help them do. And so you have to go through that process with them of being procured. [laughs]
\n\nJAY: It is meta. You're absolutely right. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: In order to become the vendor that they use.
\n\nJAY: That's right.
\n\nCHAD: What are the challenges inherent in that, and does it ever get in the way? And how do people, either your clients, come to you, or how do you find them? And how do you work through that challenging process of government procurement?
\n\nJAY: Well, the thing is, since we know this space really well, we know how to navigate those different channels, the byzantine processes I mentioned before. I think one of the things I worked on when I was in the City of San Francisco was a program that brought startups and governments together, and we had an educational component. We'd help founders better understand that exact question.
\n\nHow do you actually get contracts with government? And there are no books that are out there. There's no real knowledge out there. And so, we help them talk about the ten different pathways to doing that. So it's a bit of a hidden art, if you will. And I think there needs to be more conversation and more resources for founders if they're looking to go into the public sector to be able to navigate that. So we know that really well. And we're trying to really help broaden access to that knowledge.
\n\nCHAD: I assume that the clients you end up getting are people who are...or are governments who want to be better. Otherwise, they wouldn't choose your solution. [laughs]
\n\nJAY: That's right. Well, I think their motivations are multifold. Some of the governments want a process that's more efficient. They know that they can be more productive. They have maybe staffing constraints, and they have a lot of work, so we can help them on the productivity side. There are other governments that are really focused on hey; we need to get better partners out there. We've been working with the same folks over and over again. How do we work with those innovators in our community? So there's that crowd.
\n\nAnd then there's, I think, another group of folks who are saying, "Hey, we wanted to make sure that this process is more inclusive. We want to work with folks who are from different backgrounds who may be underrepresented. How do we make this process more streamlined, more efficient so that they're able to participate more effectively?" So I think the motivations can be different, but it's really at the end of the day centered around this idea of digital transformation and service design that allows these two different worlds to be able to communicate and work together more effectively.
\n\nCHAD: How long is the typical sales cycle for a client?
\n\nJAY: Man, yeah, [laughs] it can range from weeks, I would say to months and going over 12 months. It can be 12 to 18 months, trying to get in, doing a trial maybe, giving them that certainty, and then securing budget and that annual process of waiting for that budget approval to happen. So it is not for the faint of heart, especially enterprise software within government is really something that requires a lot of different approaches.
\n\nSo partnerships with bigger companies that have the distribution channel, that might have those relationships, that might have those contracts, how do you actually work with them to shortcut the long procurement process? How do you leverage folks like AWS and other cloud providers that may already have a relationship so that you can, again, piggyback off of that? So I think there are a number of different ways to try to compress that timeframe. But it's not a walk in the park, Chad.
\n\nCHAD: So, in that environment, how did you get started with City Innovate? How long was it until you were able to get your first real customer? And how did you bridge the gap between founding and being in the market?
\n\nJAY: That's a great question. So being in the public sector, I knew that procurement is a huge challenge and also a pressure point and a leverage point to unlocking a lot of value. And so the work that we had done with startups and government the first experience that we had was amazing. We had a startup that came in and helped blind people navigate through the airport here in San Francisco SFO in four months and truly a collaboration with the startup and the airport staff. And unfortunately, when it came to procurement, it took two years for them to actually get into contract.
\n\nCHAD: Wow.
\n\nJAY: For a startup, that's like dog years. That's like an eternity. And so we really knew that we had to tackle that. So we introduced a methodology called challenge-based procurement that, as I spoke to earlier, is more agile, evidence-based, and outcomes-based. And that really leveled the playing field for these young companies to show that hey, we can actually go in here and help you solve that problem. You don't have to work with a big publicly-traded company to do this work and spend a lot of money. We can be more nimble and agile. And so that's really where I started to dig in deeper into procurement.
\n\nAnd that work got federally funded because it created a lot of jobs. And we've had hundreds of startups all across the U.S. It's an international program called STIR, Startup In Residence, and really proud of that work. Our mayor, unfortunately, died unexpectedly. So we looked at hey, where do we move this program? And it did make sense for a city to manage a multi-city program, and so City Innovate came to mind.
\n\nAt the time, they were a non-profit. I'd been working with my co-CEO co-executive director at the time. It was a nice, beautiful transition into that. And at that time, I said for myself personally, where do I see impact, and what can I do? And for me, the idea of entrepreneurship, the idea of products making impact in government, I saw how much impact was being made. And so City Innovate has really become that vehicle for myself and the organization to really scale that idea out.
\n\nCHAD: You mentioned you have a co-CEO. How did that come about? And how do you split the responsibilities between the two of you?
\n\nJAY: Well, the good thing is we're really great complements. So his focus is really on go-to-market and focusing on how do we get this in the hands of our customers or prospective customers? And I've always been very interested on the product side. I was formerly a VP of product at a startup before my time in government, and so that scenario I find keen interest. And I deeply understand the personas and the use cases of government, having spent a lot of time there.
\n\nAnd so that empathy and understanding and building a product around that and having somebody who can help get that product in the hands of government navigating through those difficult processes. It really does take that. You can have a great product, but without that ability to get it in the hands of your customers, especially with governments, it's really challenging.
\n\nCHAD: Is there any in particular...like, why Co-CEO and not two other C-level roles, one of you CEO, one of you CIO?
\n\nJAY: I don't think we've spent too much time debating that. And that might change, I think to your point to better describe our focus areas. Maybe my role changes to chief product officer and his to a different role title. I think if you're starting a company, you've got a lot of things to worry about. And it just seemed like a...yeah, I don't think there was much thought in it.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. That's interesting, though. You alluded to what you were doing before the City of San Francisco. Well, let's dive into that a little bit more. And specifically, what were you doing, and then why did you join the public sector?
\n\nJAY: So I was VP of Product at a company called SquareTrade. It was a wonderful journey. We were working with, again, something kind of wonky and a space that was anti-consumer. It was around warranties, specifically electronic warranties. And we were in the eBay marketplace and expanded way beyond that in later years. But when I was there, we really took a contrarian perspective and being inspired by Zappos and many companies that are really focused on the consumer.
\n\nWe changed that value proposition to say, hey, can we build a product that people love, a warranty that actually works? And so we did crazy things like we would actually give you the money before you returned the product. We would have the shipping label. And we wouldn't ask any questions. We did amazing things. But that wasn't just because we were focused on the user experience. We also had data to back it up.
\n\nWe knew that, hey, there are a certain percentage of people who are going to return rocks. And there's a certain percentage of people who are going to do certain things. So we had a lot of information going in. The other thing we knew is that we could own the whole stack, the underwriting, the retailing. And we also knew the business. So that was a great experience.
\n\nBut I really was missing this connection to the public good and doing something that was having impact in a really tangible way. That's when I saw why don't I work for a city I love deeply and care about? And that really drove me into thinking about public service. I had some friends who were in it, and they convinced me that I should take a look at that.
\n\nAnd I definitely have found the work that I had been doing in public service to be extremely rewarding and just a unique opportunity. Especially if you're a technologist or a product mindset or an engineering mindset, that is such a rare perspective in government, and being able to bring that in, you can do amazing things.
\n\nWe all know the healthcare.gov and how that was imploding and exploding. It almost brought down a presidency and administration, and it was saved. I think many people know the story, especially in your audience. That was really folks in Silicon Valley saying, "Hey, I'm going to raise my hand and volunteer my time. I might be working at a big company and making a lot of money, but I will take my time out and try to help." And they did. They turned it around.
\n\nAnd I think that ethos and that mindset of giving back is something that's animated my interests in public sector and the fact that there's so much need, especially from the tech community, in helping the government out.
\n\nCHAD: Now, you didn't get started as the City Innovation Officer. [chuckles] So you got started as the Manager of Enterprise CRM for the City of San Francisco.
\n\nJAY: That's right. Yeah, it was interesting. Yeah, definitely.
\n\nCHAD: I think that public sector work is maybe a little bit of a black box for people. I know it is for me. You mentioned you knew some people, but I assume that was not a political appointment job.
\n\nJAY: It was not.
\n\nCHAD: So, how does one get into that, find it, and get that job and that kind of thing?
\n\nJAY: I think I took a very rare and uncommon path. So as you noted, I came in helping stand up a call center. So a 311 one call center which is, for the folks who don't know, 311 is for non-emergencies, potholes, et cetera, starting a business, how do I do that? So yeah, set up a CRM system 24/7. It was a great experience and actually much harder than I thought. I was working harder there than I had at the startup, so breaking some stereotypes or at least some ideas that I had in my mind.
\n\nBut I quickly found myself saturating that opportunity and saying, hey, what do I want to do? And this was at the time that Obama had just come into office, and he had a call to action. His first memo in office was around openness and collaboration and that I felt was really compelling to me. I had the opportunity to say, "Hey, let me reach out to folks in White House. I don't have any relationships there, but I have this badge of San Francisco." And that started me on a journey of innovation, civic innovation.
\n\nAnd I did some really interesting things with great startups like Twitter at the time. We created a read/write API, the first of its kind in local government. Almost got fired by the [inaudible 16:45] [laughter] and trying to explain just like, why are you opening a channel into government to let people do horrible things? And so it was an interesting conversation. But Gavin Newsom was the mayor at the time then, so you can see it's going back in time.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJAY: But my journey then sort of said, hey, let's continue building data standards and doing good work. And I was recognized by the mayoral campaigns that were running. And so they wanted to sort of say, "Hey, we need somebody in innovation in the mayor's office." So I got recruited into that role, the first of its kind in San Francisco and in the U.S.
\n\nSo it was just a great opportunity to really help define and set a foundation for what does civic innovation mean? What does that look like? And we had a small office, and we did some really interesting work at the nexus of collaboration. That's really what I think is what we tried to do is make government more permeable, more accessible for people who are driving innovation in their communities to be able to participate in government.
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\n\nI wanted to tell you all about something I've been working on quietly for the past year or so, and that's AgencyU. AgencyU is a membership-based program where I work one-on-one with a small group of agency founders and leaders toward their business goals.
\n\nWe do one-on-one coaching sessions and also monthly group meetings. We start with goal setting, advice, and problem-solving based on my experiences over the last 18 years of running thoughtbot. As we progress as a group, we all get to know each other more. And many of the AgencyU members are now working on client projects together and even referring work to each other.
\n\nWhether you're struggling to grow an agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in my 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot, I've seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and I'd be happy to work with you. Learn more and sign up today at thoughtbot.com/agencyu. That's A-G-E-N-C-Y, the letter U.
\n\nCHAD: If someone's interested, how might they get involved in contributing to the public sector?
\n\nJAY: I think there's a couple of different ways. So one way, Chad, is that governments are often putting a lot of data out there. There has been an open data movement that we had led, and it's now a national global movement. So you can find data, and you can create a data product around that and giving more insight into visibility and into issues. You can volunteer with a specific department. They're looking for those skill sets, so you can do that.
\n\nYou can also look for digital services offices. So those are becoming much more commonplace in governments if that's your thing. There are definitely ways to raise your hand and try to contribute. Folks are always looking for it. And if you don't see that opportunity, make that opportunity happen. Reach out to your council member. Reach out to a department head and say, "Hey, I've got this great superpower. I want to help you do better." And I guarantee they will listen because they're often strapped for resources.
\n\nCHAD: How do you know when you should pursue a more general product that might be useful to governments versus like, oh, if I could get in there and contribute? How do you make that distinction in your mind?
\n\nJAY: Well, I don't think there needs to be. So you can come in and have maybe a frame of hey, let me help my local government. And you might find opportunities while you're working there. They're using Microsoft Word and Excel to do something that really should be productized so you can think about it from that frame. Or you might have built a product for an adjacent market or for another need and say, "Hey, is there an opportunity to actually reframe this product that I have in the government context?" It might be a content management system. It might be a lot of different products can be reframed in that context.
\n\nSo the way that we actually became a product company from a non-profit was just doing that. We got invited to bring our methodology of agile procurement. And so we had in the back of our mind this idea that I bet if we go there, it's going to be kind of dusty. There's going to be a lot of broken tools, and that was the case. They were using 40-year old technology to manage sometimes billions of dollars of purchasing. And so we saw something that you normally wouldn't have that vantage point by really collaborating and working with them. And that led to product ideas, and that we were able to co-design and co-develop that with our partner governments.
\n\nAnd then something that I think is also unique is that they're often eager to work with you because they don't get that opportunity often to work with vendors and folks who can conjure magic in their minds, that they have a vision or idea. And you can come back in a week or a month, and you might have a working product, not just wireframes. And for them, that ability to move so quickly they haven't seen that before.
\n\nAnd I saw that firsthand in bringing startups and governments together, the velocity and speed that startups can work with is so different. We all know that. But when they see that, they get excited. They want to work with them. They want to lean into it and figure out, hey, can I give you data? Can I give you other ways to better understand the space? Because no one's cared about this space before. So there's often a willingness to grab a hold of anyone who can actually help them solve their problems. But you have to listen, and you have to come in humble.
\n\nAnd I'll share a story here. I created a program called Civic Bridge that brought in pro bono services from big companies like Google and McKinsey, and many others. And some folks from Google came in, and they were sharing how they have to serve everybody. Their product is really ubiquitous and has to serve everybody. They quickly got reminded that government has to serve everybody, people who don't have technology, people who aren't online, people who don't have English as their first language, and people with different disabilities. All of them are constituents.
\n\nAnd so technology is one way to reach people. But you have to think broadly about how do you make that service or what you're offering accessible to everybody? And I think that was a humbling experience for the folks there at the table. But what I loved about that program is really this cross-pollination and also breaking down stereotypes in both directions that people sometimes have in the public sector of private sector folks because they often don't hop back and forth. If you're a public sector person, you're often in the public sector.
\n\nAnd so being able to actually see that they're not just a bunch of capitalists, [laughs] that they're your neighbor, that these are people who do care about the community, and they're making an impact in a different way. And vice versa, that there are so many talented people in government. And the problems seem simple or seem simple to solve on the outside, but they're often wicked problems or just have a lot of complexity to try to solve. So it's great to be able to have that empathy on both sides.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's maybe one thing. Are there other things that you would point out that are different when creating and shaping products for the public sector versus the private products?
\n\nJAY: Yeah, I think that idea of being inclusive is really important. The other one is around...and this is, I think, true even in the private sector but more so in the public sector because of the demographics that you're working with. The demographics are folks who are closer to retirement. They are not digital natives. So when you're building products, you really need to leverage mental models and use that as a way to bring them into a new experience or a new tool. And as an example, there are obviously a lot of government forms that you see, right?
\n\nCHAD: Mm-hmm.
\n\nJAY: And I think as a technologist or a product person, you might say, hey, let's move away from Microsoft Word or Adobe PDF or whatever you're using. We have this thing called HTML, and we can bring this online and have all these beautiful affordances. Well, that's really hard for those folks to wrap their heads around and move from something they may have been using for 20, 30 years.
\n\nAnd so maybe that first step is not that; maybe it's online fillable PDFs that you can actually store the data in a database and shift that back. And maybe that allows them to actually move more quickly because there's less resistance both internally and for the public as well. And so we've seen that time and time again, is that hey, is there a way to make that shift into a new paradigm but do it in such a way that there's a clear connection point?
\n\nAnd then maybe the next step after that is, yeah, we need to make sure this is mobile-ready. Let's actually make that into a responsive design and move away from that PDF. And that's something that we've learned in our own product that, hey, we need to understand deeply the products and tools that they're using today. And how do we draw those parallels and bring them into the current modern set of technologies that we're offering? So it's not always easy, but it's something that we found a lot of success leveraging those mental models.
\n\nCHAD: Are there other things that you might call out as things you got to keep in mind?
\n\nJAY: Well, security is often, you know, we see that everywhere with SolarWinds, et cetera. I think there's just a deeper concern of supply chain attacks, ransomware, et cetera. So you're seeing, I think across the board in enterprise as well but in government even more so really focusing on that. And I think the challenge for folks who are building products is how do you find that balance when you have to make sure that you're NIST-certified and all of the SOC 2, et cetera? How do you build a great product that is accessible that doesn't make you go through a bunch of hoops to try to get access to it? And it's not easy.
\n\nSo that adds a layer of complexity trying to build that out. And, Chad, I'm sure you've worked with a lot of folks who have thought about government or may have had some success with it. So it might be interesting to hear from you if there are certain patterns or product sensibilities that you've seen that have been successfully applied in the public sector realm.
\n\nCHAD: Well, I think you're right about that inherent complexity or that the bar is pretty high in order to have a product which is accessible and secure. If you're building a product for consumers, you can do some of that stuff iteratively. It can be difficult to work in an agile, iterative way in a highly regulated space. And so there's maybe not even one set way that you do that. It might be different for the space that you operate in.
\n\nBut it is important to take a step back and say, what can we do iteratively, or what can we leave off right now because we have to do this other thing? And those will be different for every product. And I see the real mistake being not taking that step back and not really being thoughtful about how you're going to do that in the complex, highly regulated space.
\n\nAnd this is true for healthcare and finance as well. There are certain things you've got to do. And really, you have to approach it pretty thoughtfully in order to make sure you can still work and not just default to doing everything agile. We have this concept of like the 80-20 rule, and that is sometimes really difficult to do in the public space, right?
\n\nJAY: I think you're absolutely right. And I think people recognize that highly regulated markets or industries are tough to crack. And I think you're absolutely right, Chad, that you have to find that entry point where maybe you can come in and the regulations are lower for that problem that you're solving initially. And use that as a place to land and then better understand where you fit into the overall workflow. And you're able to go upstream and downstream from there.
\n\nAnd that's a lot of what we've seen success with these young startups, and the work we're doing will come in where there's maybe not so much regulations and provide value there, build trust, and then look at the broader ecosystem or processes to say, "Hey, where can we add more value?" Yes, it might be highly regulated. But we now have a better understanding, more resources, and customers to help us educate climbing that mountain together.
\n\nBut yeah, I want to make sure that...the flip side of all this...so if I were listening, I'd say, "Well, it sounds like the public sector is really tough," [laughter] and it is, but it's also truly rewarding. I think being able to know that you're able to help at the scale that the government does its work is really, really rewarding.
\n\nOne of the founders that we helped get her first product was to help foster kids, and that foster process that we've probably all heard is really, really tough. And they brought that online, and they went from one city...they're in so many different states now serving so many people across the U.S., and they're doing really well. They're, I think, Series B or C. And it's amazing. But it took that one government to take a chance and to be able to bring all this value. So that's something that excites me is the level of impact is so significant.
\n\nCHAD: On that note, you started the conversation saying that procurement was the area where you felt like you could have an impact. Do you see expanding beyond that in the future, or is that not on your roadmap?
\n\nJAY: I think we have a lot to chew on. But like a lot of product folks, we've got ideas that are further out. What I'm seeing in the government space when we talk about digital transformation...in the government context, you're often talking about PDFs and Microsoft Word documents, et cetera.
\n\nSo I think for us, we're really excited about is there a new way to think about documents in a way that works for governments? They're used to Microsoft Word. But is there more that can be done there to create more affordances, to create more powers that they just don't have today? And they're using Post-it Notes or whatever it might be to try to address those shortcomings.
\n\nCHAD: Everything is going to be marked down in GitHub eventually. [laughter]
\n\nJAY: Yes, we do need to introduce Markdown or just plain text, maybe. Why are these contracts locked up in Microsoft Word? Yeah, that's something that's a pet peeve of mine as well. I spend a lot of time in open data. And let's not use proprietary formats. Let's use something that folks understand. But the world is changing, which is great. We're seeing more governments using JSON.
\n\nAnd one of the things that I'll share is that when you're building a product for government, you do have to think about the data component because that data doesn't belong to you; you're really stewards. That data belongs to the government and its constituents. So that's a different way of thinking because often, private companies are trying to monetize the data that they're having. So you have to have a much more sort of a frame that you're a custodian.
\n\nCHAD: I think that's one of the things that can get a little lost, whether it be bureaucracy or politics or whatever but this idea that there is a community here. It is the community in which you live. You said that what inspired you to get involved was wanting to contribute back to a city that you love. It's easy for that to get lost in everything.
\n\nJAY: Yeah. And that's my call to action to your audiences. Sort of touching upon our earlier points in our conversation, find a way if you have that means, and ability, and interest to make your community better. It might be something just for your city, or it might be something bigger. And I've seen so many people have good ideas. But to your point, how do you actually convert that good idea into something that's valuable and used by the community?
\n\nAnd hopefully, this conversation is helping people and inspiring them to raise their hands and knock on the door. I think you'll see folks on the other side giving you a warm reception. They're very hungry and eager for people who have the capabilities of product and engineering and that type of talent to come to the table and help them.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. If folks want to get in touch with you or find out more about City Innovate or STIR, too, where are the places where they can do that?
\n\nJAY: They can go to our website cityinnovate.com. They can also go...I've got my own personal website, jaynath.com. And I'm very open. I have been since my days in public service. I'm still very accessible, maybe not as responsive as I used to be, just with all that work of being a founder. But if you're interested in this space, I always want to give back because we need great people with great talent working in the public sector, whether it's for government or within government or building a product for government.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. Jay, thanks very much for stopping by and sharing with us.
\n\nJAY: Thank you so much, Chad, for the opportunity to share the work that we're doing.
\n\nCHAD: You can subscribe to the show and find notes and a transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening and see you next time
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Jay Nath.
Sponsored By:
Alexandra Holien is the Vice President of Revenue and Strategy and Deputy Director of Ada Developers Academy. She talks with Chad about working for a nonprofit that prioritizes teaching Black, Brown, Latinx, Indigenous, Hawaiian, Pacific Islander, and low-income folks software development for free.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Alexandra Holien, Vice President of Revenue and Strategy and Deputy Director of Ada Developers Academy. Alexandra, thank you for joining me.
\n\nALEXANDRA: Thank you for having me. I'm excited.
\n\nCHAD: Let's start right off the bat with giving folks a brief overview of what Ada actually is.
\n\nALEXANDRA: Yeah, I'd love to. Ada Developers Academy we are a super unique non-profit, and I think, well-functioning business. We're a tuition-free 11-month software developing bootcamp academy for women and gender-expansive people. That may sound like some of the other bootcamps you've seen out there, but we're completely different. We have this really cool intersection of education, social justice, equity, bringing money to the people that need money sort of drive about us.
\n\nWe prioritize serving Black, Latine, Indigenous, Hawaiian, and Pacific Islander folks, and low-income folks. And we prioritize them because they've been left out of this capitalistic system the most. And we think if we can really put money in the hands of these gorgeous, resilient communities through the career of software development and one of the hugest wealth engines of our time, then we're going to change the world. We're crazy because it's like we're free for our students.
\n\nCHAD: [chuckles]
\n\nALEXANDRA: There are wraparound services, ridiculous, not even ridiculous, just like, natural. And it seems unique, and it seems crazy. But these things that we're doing to support our students are actually just human and basic needs, providing comprehensive support for our students financially, childcare, mental health care, free laptops, just making sure that they're set up for success, unlike I think other more traditional education systems. So they can go and be really amazing software developers.
\n\nAnd it's proven time and time again if you just set people up, open the door, give them the opportunity, make sure that you're creating equity, then 92% of those folks what we're seeing is our numbers are going to go out there and get full-time software development jobs. So that's Ada in the smallest nutshell and believe me, I'm going to tell you way more.
\n\nCHAD: Well, we're going to dig into each of those things and more. I interview a lot of people who graduate from bootcamps. We have a pretty wide-reaching apprentice program. And I'm pretty familiar with what it looks like when people are graduating from those programs. And you can graduate from a three-month program and be successful, and I don't mean to imply that you can't be.
\n\nBut I do see folks who go to slightly longer programs, up to 11 months, a year like at Ada, and those people are often much more well-rounded developers not only with the technical skills but with all of the other skills that are important to development. How intentional was the length of the curriculum? And was there pressure early on to get people into the market faster?
\n\nALEXANDRA: Yeah, great question. I think that so many...let me answer your first question, which is how intentional was it? It had to be at the forefront of what we wanted to do. And the reason why it had to be is that we were taking a group of people that had already been left out of the system.
\n\nAnd we already knew that there were going to be steps that they had to take to get into...like, once they got into the tech industry, getting in and staying in was going to be harder than their counterparts, harder than the white dude who took apart a computer or a Nintendo when they were in the 80s and growing up because their dads were software engineers. And then went on to college and knew they were going to be software engineers.
\n\nSo our founders, Scott Case and Elise Worthy, were so intentional in making sure that the technical bar and the technical merit of our students going into the industry was not what they were going to have to worry about. That was not going to be the thing that kept them up at night thinking like, oh, man, I don't know if I can do this because I don't understand it. That was not going to be it because we knew there were going to be other things.
\n\nWe knew there were going to be people mistaking you for the secretary. And these are examples that are all true. It's mistaking you for the secretary or the person that's the assistant or the executive assistant when they walk into the room or that person that constantly misgenders you. We knew there were going to be other really big obstacles that they're going to have to overcome when walking into a very homogenous industry like the software development industry of the United States. We knew that that was going to be the big thing.
\n\nSo being intentional about the programming that we were going to offer our students that five and a half months of nine-to-five intense programming that also concentrates on what I don't think a lot of bootcamps really concentrate on, that CS fundamentals part of it, showing people that that is a part of the world. It's not the part of the world of the most entry-level software engineers, but it is there, so showing them that that's there.
\n\nAnd then giving them that internship, giving them that on-the-job training that Ada does that no other bootcamp does like we do. That sort of on-the-job training where you go in, and you see what does that practice of what you learned in code look like in real-time when you put it next to one of our sponsoring companies' tech stack?
\n\nSo it had to be really intentional. I don't know if it was like, yes, this has to be perfectly like this. I think we definitely iterated and made it better over the years. But making sure that the technical bar of our students was at the technical bar of everyone else was something that we really wanted to make sure that we hit on. So they didn't have to worry about...so retention was not that they couldn't quote, "hack it" like everyone else like the people say, or they didn't have the aptitude. The retention was all about is the company creating a good enough environment for these folks to want to stay at that point?
\n\nCHAD: What is the tech stack that you're teaching now?
\n\nALEXANDRA: Yeah, we just switched. We talked about this for a little bit. We just switched from our beloved Ruby on Rails. We were Ruby on Rails for a very long time. But we just switched to Python, React, JavaScript. HTML and CSS is part of our curriculum. And yeah, that's it, Python, React, JavaScript.
\n\nCHAD: I don't take the switch away from Rails personally. [laughs]
\n\nALEXANDRA: People did. We had companies being like, "What are you doing? We love Ruby." And we were like, "Yes, we do too, but we had to move forward and on." [laughs] Ada started at the same time Ruby was in the spotlight, too, eight years ago.
\n\nCHAD: So is that what you're seeing in the industry now, is Python, React are in more development, in more demand?
\n\nALEXANDRA: Yeah, we're seeing that definitely come up. We put together a steering committee for our curriculum when we made this switch. We basically just brought in our partners to help us like, okay, what is the thing because, you know, our partners range...every cohort, we have a company that sponsors the education of one of our students, and then they take that student on as an intern. So we can't please everyone. We knew we couldn't please everyone here. But we wanted to find a good middle, and Python seemed like a really good middle. Python, React was a good middle for us to go towards for just the future.
\n\nEight years from now, again, we'll probably be in the same place we are right now. But we say it's like teaching Spanish. We're not teaching you building out a bunch of Python engineers. We're building out people that know how to be agile, know how to learn different curriculums, know how to be flexible and all that, and know that the industry is changing, and you have to be a lifelong learner, right?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah.
\n\nALEXANDRA: You know this to be a part of this industry.
\n\nCHAD: Well, beyond the tech, what are some of the other things that students in Ada learn or focus on over the course of the program?
\n\nALEXANDRA: I would say our curriculum is broken out into three distinctive pieces that are all a part of our everyday classroom. So that first part being that technical part that our students really are just getting the chops of what it means to be a software engineer, understanding a full tech stack, understanding the frontend, backend, the APIs that all connect the stuff, just making someone that sort of bare bones of what I think is a good software engineer.
\n\nThe next step is that social justice piece, which is held up by our equity and policy team. They're really teaching students once you get in the door, it's not just about getting in the door; it's about staying in the room. And it's about not just diversity; it's about inclusion. And we're seeing that we cannot just expect just because someone's decided to sponsor an Ada student, we can't expect someone knowing how to support someone that is outside of what they've supported in the past, and we know what that looks like.
\n\nSo we have to really create students who know what allyship looks like, know what advocacy for themselves looks like. So they can really manage up in this process, bring people in. We do not want to say someone did something or said something to me, so we're just going to push these people away because we found that when you push those people away, especially in the tech software engineering space, you're really just left out of it. You're just out of the system. So we have to figure out how to change the system from within.
\n\nSo really teaching students how they can talk about gender expression, how they can talk about racial expression, how they can advocate for themselves while they're on the job. And the goal of all of this is actually to keep people on tech. We don't want our students having to talk about these things all the time. We want them to be talking about the tech that they're doing just like they want. And so we want to just keep things as much on tech as possible.
\n\nThe third part is our professional development part. How do you manager up, take yourself in that first block to that SE2 SE3? And that's just helping folks with career development.
\n\nCHAD: When it comes to the inclusion piece, I imagine it's a little bit of a fine line to walk because you don't necessarily want to put all of the work of creating an inclusive environment on the people who have been historically marginalized. But at the same time, you want to set those people up for success coming out of your program. How directly do you provide training to the companies that are sponsoring?
\n\nALEXANDRA: Completely directly. [laughter] We know that if we can get a whole...I would say I sign people at the CTO level and the senior manager level. They have the budget. They're the ones pulling the purse strings. But once we figure out, once you sign on as a company, your manager and mentor are going through our corporate accountability training. While our students are learning the technical part of it, our managers and mentors are going through a monthly training with our team to make sure they are ready to receive these interns. So when that intern comes on-site, they're speaking the same language.
\n\nWe're not only teaching the students how to be allies and advocates. We're teaching the managers how to be. So many times, they're like, "Someone on my team keeps misgendering someone, and I don't know what to do." We had enough of those calls, so we decided to teach them what to do. And not only do we teach them, but we also put them in peer learning groups together so they can teach each other what to do because that's where they really start listening to each other. When two folks coming from the same background are having a conversation on how to be a better manager, we love that.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's great. And I think that's really likely a very important component to overall success. Well, let's talk economics a little bit because I've gotten up on my soapbox before around how companies have traditionally been way too comfortable saying, "Well, we have this position open, and we're using recruiters." And the position has been vacant for months. And in the meantime, they're willing to pay recruiters tens of thousands of dollars trying to fill the position.
\n\nAnd I've always made the case like, tech and the way the economics work it would be better to invest that money that you're willing to give a recruiter into training people. When I learned about Ada, it really resonated with me. So what is the complete picture of how students afford to attend Ada, where the funding comes from, and how that all works out for them?
\n\nALEXANDRA: Oh, you're speaking to the choir. [laughs] When I talk about this with companies, I am oftentimes like, "How much did you spend on recruiting last year?" And then they tell me the number, and I'm like, wow, okay. We work with companies we call them our company partners because they are partnering with us to complete this mission of Ada that we have, which is to educate more women and gender-expansive people to be software engineers.
\n\nOur business model is simple, but it works. We wanted to remove all barriers for entry for people that wanted to become software engineers within that group. So we wanted the program to be free. We knew that was always the case. We knew that there was this hole with bootcamps that was out there. This was seven, eight years ago where it was like people were going through these bootcamps and then not getting full-time jobs. And so we knew we didn't want to fall victim to that.
\n\nSo what we did was put an internship on the backend and really got companies to not just put their money where their mouth is but put their time and resources where their mouth is. That's more money. So they pay $55,000, and that $55,000 educates the student while they're in class with us, keeps the program completely free for our students. And then the other part of their buy into this whole shebang is you have to now make this person a hireable junior engineer because they're going to do an internship with you. And then everyone's always like, okay, the return on investment. To me, the return on investment is you did good, company.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nALEXANDRA: But also, the return on investment for a lot of our company partners, I call it the icing on the cake because it is not a part of our model. It is 70% of them convert their students to full-time jobs, full-time FTE offers from these internships. We had a company give...they sponsored six interns, gave six offers, and then went on to do a hiring loop with our graduating cohort and gave another 23 offers.
\n\nCHAD: Wow.
\n\nALEXANDRA: And this happens every six months. So these companies that are out there saying it's a pipeline problem or I'm just going to spend money on this recruiter to go find talent, I'm like, are you kidding me? We're either in your backyard, or we're a phone call, phone call, excuse me, an email away.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] A fax away.
\n\nALEXANDRA: I age myself. I said Rolodex to our students, and people didn't know what it was, and I was so embarrassed. I was like, wow, I guess a LinkedIn I'm sorry.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nALEXANDRA: But we're like, you know, the resource is there, the talent is there. We have 120 students in our cohorts, and that's only growing. We're expanding to Atlanta. We're expanding to the DC area. It's there. So when companies are like, "I don't know." I've seen us move the needle at mid-sized companies. There are companies like Amazon, and there are over 100 graduated Adies there. We've moved the needle.
\n\nSo it's like, you just got to call or email at this point. There are other ways to do it. And if you keep going to the same well, you keep going to the colleges; you keep going to that recruit, yeah, you're going to fill up the same thing over and over again.
\n\nAnd we know 70% of jobs are received by...you’re networking with your friends, and you’re networking with your peers. And if something like 75% of the industry is white dudes or just dudes in general, then we're just going to keep bringing in the same person. And it's not just diversity is the right thing to do. It is the right thing to do, but it’s also like you build a better product, period. That's just a better product.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, the different perspectives that people have, the different blind spots that people have. When you get rid of those, you build a better product.
\n\nALEXANDRA: And we're talking about building the future here. We have to include the other 50% of the population. So it's imperative. It's not necessary; it is imperative we get up to that. You're at 40% in your company. We got to get up to 50%. We got to get a little bit more. And we got to make sure that 50% is diverse on all intersections of what diversity can mean.
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\n\nCHAD: So you mentioned the companies pay to sponsor individual students. You also have mentioned earlier in the conversation that you provide things like child care. So are the pooled resources of all of those sponsorships also going to pay for those additional benefits while in the program, or do you have another source of funds?
\n\nALEXANDRA: We are still very much so a non-profit. [laughs] We have a good amount of philanthropic dollars coming our way, and it's individual donors. I would say one of our biggest clumps of donors, our biggest group of people that donate to Ada, are our alumni. They come out with 160% salary change, and they are the first people to see the value in giving back to Ada. We also have some major donors out there.
\n\nWe just got a pretty large expansion grant from the Pivotal folks, which is Melinda French Gates, MacKenzie Bezos, and the Schusterman Foundation. They invested $10 million in helping us expand. That expansion has served more students. Wraparound services mostly come from philanthropic dollars. So donating to what we do, donating to keep our program equitable, is always very much needed because about 10% of our budget is all philanthropic dollars, and that's covering those wraparound services barriers to entry.
\n\nCHAD: Is healthcare one of the wraparound services that you provide?
\n\nALEXANDRA: No. I wish. I mean, geez.
\n\nCHAD: I know.
\n\nALEXANDRA: If the U.S. government gets it right, after they get it right, we'll follow soon. [laughter] But we're trying. We are trying to do it differently. We're trying to meet people where they are and see the reality of people's situations. And the reality is that if you're a woman or gender-expansive person and you want to take this chance, we offer a zero-interest either loan or a zero-interest grant that comes directly from Ada, or from our partner, Community Credit lab. And that's a zero-interest loan. We don't even check your credit. If you're in it with us, then we're going to get it in it with you.
\n\nAnd that zero-interest loan just gets recycled back to serve more people. So that zero-interest loan is while you're in class for that five and a half months, you're going to need still some money coming in. So we make sure you still have money coming in. The stipend hits when you get to internships, so from that 55,000, about 17 goes directly to the student for their stipend while they're interning.
\n\nAlso, we give a childcare stipend. We're looking for a childcare partner out there because we really want to be able to make this more of a national program. But we're looking for that out there. But we give that stipend out to folks so they can pay for daycare or whatever they may need so they can actually come to the program.
\n\nWe have a laptop program. You need a Mac to come to Ada. Everyone can't afford a Mac. We take donated Macs from companies that...companies sometimes give them a two-year life cycle for their Macs. So we can use it for another couple of years. So we take donations for Macs. And we also have a fund that we fund every year so people can buy a Mac.
\n\nAnd my favorite and I think one of the most needed things is we partner with BetterHelp and offer our students free therapy while they're in the classroom and while they're in their internship and a little bit after that as well. The free therapy was just...we're in a pandemic, and it's hit women hard. It's hit gender-expansive folks, parents, Brown folks, it's hit people hard. And so we're like, hey, why don't we, while you're in a pandemic, send you through the most rigorous part of your life? [laughs]
\n\nAnd so, making sure we were supporting people all around was really important to us. And it did nothing but create success for us. This did not make a deficit in our bottom line. This actually created more success for us. We saw when we did this; we got more people graduating. We get more people donating back. We get more people paying back their loans faster. So it just does nothing for the community but make it better and stronger. So we're going to continue to do it. It's going to continue to always be a part of who we are at Ada. But the wraparound services are key to the success.
\n\nCHAD: That's fantastic. So you mentioned you're expanding. Where is the original location?
\n\nALEXANDRA: Seattle. We are a Seattle-based school.
\n\nCHAD: And you're expanding to Atlanta and DC you mentioned.
\n\nALEXANDRA: Yeah. We first went digital because you know --
\n\nCHAD: That is what I was going to ask.
\n\nALEXANDRA: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: How have you dealt with the pandemic with a primarily in-person model previously? And then how has that affected your expansion plans?
\n\nALEXANDRA: The pandemic was shitty and just horrible in so many ways. And out of a lot of shitty and horrible times, it creates a lot of innovation, and that's what it did. Our leadership team is a group of Brown parents. And they went to work immediately. We switched from being an in-person classroom where there's a lunch club, and a push-up club, and there are hugs everywhere and to being 100% online program in three days with systems. And companies were coming to us saying, "How are you creating community in this time?" So we did it very quickly. It taught us that we can educate people digitally.
\n\nSo the first thing we decided to do is like we've got our digital cohort up and running. So still, I would say in quotes, "our Seattle cohort and digital cohort," but digital cohort basically means you're partnering with a company that is fully digital, and they are not attached to anything geographically. And that helped us expand to Atlanta because it helped us jump over the hurdle of like, oh, we have to go get a brick and mortar. We have to set up this brick and mortar. Instead, we just decided to educate people still digitally.
\n\nIf you're in the Atlanta cohort, you're still having your education 100% online, and your internship is going to be in person with an Atlanta-based tech company. So you might be but and see [inaudible 24:11] in Atlanta later on, but we can educate you digitally. So we didn't have to slow this down.
\n\nWe saw the need just like the amount of women that lost their jobs in the pandemic. We were completely energized by the fact that we can do this. We have people that believe in us. They're giving us money. They're funding this. We can do it. So we went for it. And Atlanta is the first campus. We already have staff there. We already have a campus director on point there.
\n\nAnd then, the next expansion will be to the DC area. And we're excited to do the same thing. It's educate them digitally because that's what we've been doing for the last few years, and we're good at it. And find but and see partnerships in DC because that's how we can really make sure we have good programming that we know they can do and then give them to the sponsoring companies to complete their programming with the internship.
\n\nCHAD: So where are the current limits of growth for you then?
\n\nALEXANDRA: Current limits for growth, I mean, we've been such a Seattle-based place, and COVID pushed us into that national arena, so not a lot of people outside of our geography know who we are. Pacific Northwest was our sweet spot because people used to have to move to Seattle to be a part of Ada. So we got a lot of Californians. We got a lot of Oregons, Montana, Idaho, some Floridians because Florida knows about...we have a very huge population of Floridians. I don't know how they know, but they know.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nALEXANDRA: Our thing is, how do we get the Ada Developers Academy name and model out to the rest of the country? So they know that we are here, and we're an option for them if they want to become a software engineer.
\n\nCHAD: And right now, it sounds like you have your sights just set on the United States, not internationally.
\n\nALEXANDRA: Not Internationally. I always joke about Ada at sea, but we'll see.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nALEXANDRA: Give me 10, 20 years to get that spun up. But I would just love to...[laughs] but yeah, over the next five years, there'll be five markets in Ada. By 2025, we're hoping to educate 10,000 women and gender-expansive people. We just graduated a class of 72 last Thursday. And we just admitted another class of 120 that starts in March. So we're chugging. But right now, it's Seattle, digital, Atlanta, DC. I imagine there'll be a Southern region, and then probably a Midwest region coming after that.
\n\nCHAD: So, and then you have the purely digital cohort too?
\n\nALEXANDRA: Yep. And that's that sort of the sixth market, purely digital, which means there are so many companies that went fully remote and have no plan on coming back. And so that's just a market that we want to make sure that we're...we want people to opt into that. That's for some people who want to be fully remote forever. Some people are seeing that they need some sort of community while doing this work. And so they want to have a but and see internship. And there's every which way in between. So we'll figure it out as we move through this pandemic like the rest of the folks.
\n\nCHAD: You've shared some numbers there. And I think sometimes it's good to put that in context because people don't realize that 10,000, on one hand, sounds like a small number in the grand scheme of the United States. But actually, it's a very large number.
\n\nALEXANDRA: It's huge.
\n\nCHAD: The U.S. only graduates around 65,000 CS graduates a year in the whole United States, so just to put that in context for people.
\n\nALEXANDRA: Yeah, it's huge. I looked at the numbers for...I'm in Seattle, and I'll just say there's a college here, a large college here in Seattle, and they graduated 300 CS folks last year, and 20% of them were women. And we graduated in six months, 72 women and gender-expansive, and our focus is Brown folks, low socioeconomic folks. So you could just imagine underneath that umbrella of women, even under that, the diversity that you see. We're getting up there with some of our colleges, and we're doing this every six months.
\n\nAnd so it's a powerful model. It's the reason why I've been here for six years. It's the reason why I get really excited talking about this program. [laughs] I don't know if you can tell, but I get really excited talking about it. Because once people get in, they love being a part of our program, and they love being a partner with us. And it's a cool place to be. It just feels like a transformative place right now. And I think that we can really make a difference.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, your excitement, and I'm a big believer in the opportunity. Your excitement is clear [laughs] when you're talking about it. How did you get into this work?
\n\nALEXANDRA: I was in recruiting before. I did technical recruiting, contractor for a few different places. And I just saw the amount...and I came from a working-class. My family is from the Deep South in Louisiana. And the average income from the town I'm from is $26,000, and that was my reality.
\n\nAnd then, when I started technical recruiting, it was insane. The amount of wealth that was a part of this churn, the going to these colleges, early recruiting, paying people $6,000 a month, paying them a living stipend, making sure they had a plane ticket home, hot air balloons, tours of people's, you know, these millionaires houses. I was like, holy crap, this has to be more readily available.
\n\nAnd again, having two working-class black parents, they didn't even know what software development was. We didn't even know that was a possibility. My dad was like, "We're getting a computer," because he wanted to be on the forefront. And we got to that clear Mac that was like a purple color. We had that purple one.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nALEXANDRA: And my dad was like, "We've one." But still, there were kids in my school and in my college that had been around computers their whole lives; their schools had programming and things. So they just had that extra step. My opportunity to see in was recruiting. And after that, I was like, okay, where do I find the intersection of this and what I want to do, which is making sure that black folks have money? To be crude about it. [laughs] If we’re going to work and live in a capitalist society, then I want us to have some coins to play, and that is where I found Ada. And I love having this place.
\n\nI just get to be a part of this place where I just get to open doors or show people a door. They can open it themselves and go through, and just that's the amazing part of me, a part of this is watching people change their lives, buy their grandparents' homes, pay off their student debt, get a divorce, anything they want to do. [laughs] But to have the agency to do it in this world we live in, in the society we live in, and that's all I care about is that agency.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I was very privileged to be exposed to computers really early on and get to experience that spark of I love this. This is what I want to do. And I talk to so many people who just never had that opportunity to discover that that was even a thing that they could do, let alone love. It's just incredible when I meet someone who's like a plumber, and then they somehow get that exposure to computers or technology, and you see that spark go off for them. And it's amazing.
\n\nALEXANDRA: It's so cool. It's one of my favorite...like; our admissions process is pretty rigorous. I think the average is like 15% or 20%, depending on the cohort admissions process. And to hear how obsessed these airline stewardesses or hairdressers or mothers are obsessed with coding, I'm like, yes, yes. Or these folks who are like...Oh, we had this woman who she was an immigrant from...she fled Israel, and she came to the U.S. And she's like, the only thing she knew about coding before she started was she had one time saw someone with two screens in a movie.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nALEXANDRA: And she saw them on the computer, and she saw two screens. And then she started going through finding free stuff online. She found Ada. And this person's sitting in front of me talking about how geek they are about arrays and loops, and I'm like, yes, this is amazing. And to watch that person graduate less than a year later with just the salary that she got from Microsoft, and just the feeling that she felt when she got to call home and say, "Hey, I'm a software engineer now," I was like, all day, all day. That's like the gravy for this.
\n\nCHAD: It has nothing to do with aptitude. It has everything to do with opportunity.
\n\nALEXANDRA: Oh my gosh. Yeah, opportunities. Yeah, it's everything here.
\n\nCHAD: Well, that's great. And Ada is providing folks with that opportunity. And I am so excited to hear about it and share it with our audience. Hopefully, students are listening and want to sign up but also those sponsoring companies too, right?
\n\nALEXANDRA: Yeah, for sure. Sponsoring companies too. We love you too. You keep the wheels on this bus. So definitely give us a call.
\n\nCHAD: So if folks want to get in touch, where's the best place for them to do that?
\n\nALEXANDRA: Our website that's the best place to start, adadevelopersacademy.org. And there there is stuff on corporate partnership. If you sign up on the partners' email list, it leads you right to my email. And then, for students, we have full admissions. Our admissions opens in March for the next Atlanta cohort. There are going to be 48 seats in Atlanta, 60 seats digitally, and 60 seats in Seattle. I would say get ready for that via our website.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm along with all those links that Alexandra just mentioned and a transcript of the entire episode. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Alexandra Holien.
","summary":"Alexandra Holien is the Vice President of Revenue and Strategy and Deputy Director of Ada Developers Academy. She talks with Chad about working for a nonprofit that prioritizes teaching Black, Brown, Latinx, Indigenous, Hawaiian, Pacific Islander, and low-income folks software development for free.","date_published":"2022-02-10T00:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/46fa5de8-00a7-41df-9ef6-1f3ffc3850a6.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":40708890,"duration_in_seconds":2071}]},{"id":"5cb659f3-849a-43fa-a480-da3568647a82","title":"409: Career Growth and Being a Mindful Dev with Dagna Bieda","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/409","content_text":"Dagna Bieda is an engineer, career coach, and founder of theMindfulDev.com. She talks with Chad about being a software engineer first and then becoming a career coach who has helped a big range of clients with communication and marketing themselves successfully.\n\n\ntheMindfulDev\nFollow Dagna on Twitter or LinkedIn. \nFollow thoughtbot on Twitter or LinkedIn.\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Dagna Bieda, engineer, career coach, and founder of theMindfulDev.com. Dagna, thanks for joining me.\n\nDAGNA: Absolutely. It's a blast being here. So thanks for having me over, Chad.\n\nCHAD: So what you do is a little bit unique in that you provide career coaching to engineers. But you yourself are an engineer and have a background in engineering. So how did you arrive at what you're doing today?\n\nDAGNA: Yeah, you're exactly on point there. I was a software engineer and then turned into career coaching. So essentially, I've been coding for over ten years and coaching for the past 3. And I'm the tough love, “I've been in your shoes” kind of coach because I have that engineering experience.\n\nAnd a little bit about what it is that I did as a software engineer is I essentially moved from programming in microcontrollers in C through cell phone towers, providing LTE networks in C++. I also did behaviors of social robots in C++. I wrote a distributed web app in Ruby on Rails. And I also wrote some mobile apps for parking and transit in Swift and Java. \n\nHaving that range of experience, I really get to help a big range of clients. My former clients have worked for LinkedIn, Amazon, Google, Disney, as well as much smaller businesses. And their own experience was ranging anywhere from 2 to 20 years of experience. And I had clients who are self-taught, who are career-changing bootcamp grads, who are college grads. And my goal as a coach is to really help them reach for their potential.\n\nCHAD: Now, did you arrive at this because you yourself struggled with some of these things? Or did you have it easy and you said, \"Oh, I don't understand why these other people...\" [laughs]\n\nDAGNA: So both of these questions are exactly on point. I feel like I had it very easy at the very beginning of my career. I essentially got promoted to a senior engineer very quickly. It took about two years or something, so like superfast. But then, as a senior engineer, there was a moment where I felt that I've just plateaued in my career, and I was stuck, and I was frustrated. And I wanted to learn all the technologies out there. And what was missing was some people skills. \n\nSo once I finally was able to figure out okay, this is what I'm missing...and in hindsight, it was so obvious. I decided to move into career coaching because I realized that we're kind of brainwashed, so to speak, to put the technology on a pedestal and ignore everything else, right?\n\nCHAD: Yeah.\n\nDAGNA: But if you don't work on your soft skills and don't realize that at the end, it's all humans because you're working with humans...you're creating products for humans. So it's not something you can really escape from. That was like a huge aha moment. I was like, people don't even know this is important. Like, I got to change that. [laughs] That was a mission for me to change that, to help discover what are those roadblocks? What are those limiting beliefs that software engineers often have that keep them stuck in their career and frustrated and stopping them from really fulfilling their potential?\n\nCHAD: I often say that almost all problems are actually communication problems at their heart. \n\nDAGNA: Ooh, yes. \n\nCHAD: And in consulting, we have clients who come to us with what they think is a technical problem. And we have to sometimes tell them like, \"We can fix this problem. But if you don't address the underlying communication problem that caused it in the first place, it's just going to happen again.\" \n\nDAGNA: Absolutely, yeah. \n\nCHAD: So I think that's a problem engineers have is that they try to apply technical problems or think code is the solution to every problem.\n\nDAGNA: Well, it's not just that. Let's think about how software engineers are trained into their careers. If you have a class and you need to deliver a piece of code that compiles and does whatever it was meant to do for your assignment, even if you had incredible communications with your teammate and partner, even if you negotiated changes in the scope of features, it's all not going to matter for you passing your class if the code doesn't compile and if it doesn't do what it's supposed to do.\n\nSo early on, whenever we're creating software, we're taught how to create software. We're being taught to put technology on a pedestal. And I've worked with multiple senior engineers that feel really frustrated because they're so knowledgeable but aren't able to communicate all this knowledge that they have in their own mind. \n\nThey might be having brilliant ideas that might be helping their businesses grow and get past helping the businesses they work for grow. And they're not able to pitch those ideas and not able to really be heard and seen for the value that they bring to the table. And this is where I come in, and this is what I help with, getting past that frustration and that feeling of being stuck.\n\nCHAD: And just to clarify if I'm following right, and what I'm advocating is this isn't just if you're a developer and want to move into management. This is for just moving up in your career as a developer, right?\n\nDAGNA: Absolutely. Here's the thing, even if you're going to become the principal architect in the company, what are the skills that you need to have? It's not just technical expertise. If you have technical expertise and you're not able to talk about it with the business stakeholders that don't have the same amount of knowledge that you do, then you're not going to get to that point. Principal engineers create direction in the company, make decisions, have to be mindful about the business value that they're creating, not just the underlying tech stack.\n\nSo as we grow in our careers as software engineers, it is really critical to, once you have, I'd say, five years of experience as a software engineer, to start working on the soft skills. And to be honest, someone who has gone through a coding bootcamp because they had less of that brainwashing about putting the technology on the pedestal often tend to advance in their careers much faster because they bring that previous experience with them to the table, so they can communicate better. They have different types of ideas, different perceptions. They don't have those limiting beliefs that a lot of developers have.\n\nThe number one limiting belief that I see my clients have is believing that the work they do speaks for itself, and it doesn't unless someone literally dives into the code that you wrote. So for you to be able to advocate for your career, you need to be able to say, \"Hey, I wrote this feature,\" and not expect people to dive into the code and look through the feature and all the lines of code you wrote. It’s to be able to emphasize the business impact that the feature you wrote had on the business, and how it helped, how you contributed to the business side. And that's something that I work with developers on. \n\nNow, you did mention, Chad, that you work with a lot of developers, right? \n\nCHAD: Mm-hmm. Yeah.\n\nDAGNA: Would you say that marketing what developers do is a huge thing holding people back in their career?\n\nCHAD: Yes, not only because of what I said earlier about a lot of the root causes of problems are around actual communication. But you're right; when it comes to who you can rely on in your company, who you can communicate with, who gets their ideas across more, it comes down to being able to communicate those ideas and that value. Even little things like when the code you've been working on is ready on staging, don't just say, \"It's on staging. Check it out,\" and moving the ticket forward. \n\nDAGNA: [laughs]\n\nCHAD: But actually being able to communicate what you've done either through words or screenshots. I think we've all been in scenarios where you're working on a complicated ticket, and you are making decisions along the way about how to do that. And you make all those decisions, and they're the best decisions in the world. But if you just put that ticket up for a review and say, \"It's on staging,\" it's either not going to be accepted, or you're going to get tons of questions around why you did this. What did you consider when you were doing this? It's like a lack of trust and understanding there. \n\nBut if instead, you say, \"Here are all the things I'm considering along the way.\" And you say, \"I've balanced all of these priorities, and here's the decision I've made, and it's on staging, and it works like this. And here's where you go to view it. And click on this. And here's a movie that shows how it works\". People are going to be like, \"Oh, sounds great. Accepted.\"\n\nDAGNA: Yeah, absolutely. But here's the thing. As developers, we're not taught to do all these things that you just described. We're taught to write code that compiles, boom, done. [laughs] \n\nCHAD: So when working with people who have this sort of mindset o the skill gap, what are some things that you have people do to level up?\n\nDAGNA: Yeah, there are certain things that we specifically work on, and that is negotiation, setting expectations and boundaries, being able to respectfully either decline a change in scope of work or try to negotiate the change of a deadline whenever there's an impossible feature request. Or things like being able to set expectations that if you're working on your focus time, that you shouldn't be disrupted. \n\nAnd it's something that's very hard because developers usually really want to be helpful. So when a product manager comes to them and says, \"Hey, I really need this. It's for a critical client,\" what happens is most often than not, they're going to drop everything they were doing just to finish that one thing and be helpful. And so being able to create a boundary saying, \"Hey, I'll get back to you after I'm done working on what it is that I'm working,\" is a skill.\n\nBeing able to market what you did and being able to show the business value, how your work contributed to the business side is also a skill. And even having communication with your manager telling them, \"Hey, I realize that I need to work on XYZ. Would you be willing to give me feedback? Because we go to the meetings together, you see how I communicate; you see how I think, you see how I act. Give me more feedback. What can I do to grow in my career?\" So asking for that feedback is a skill. So there are a lot of moving elements, and these are the skills that I work with on my clients.\n\nBut there's a big thing that I want to address here too is that with technology changing and being at such a fast pace, it is very important to give yourself grace, especially when you're starting out. Be patient with yourself to give yourself that time to actually master the tech part. And it's really important to see and understand how you think about your career growth. Do you beat yourself up in your mind, or do you actually see the opportunities for growth? \n\nWith developers, since we're not being taught how to communicate effectively with other people, oftentimes, when someone wants to give us feedback that might help us in our career, we get defensive because it feels like an attack on our character. And I see it with juniors all the time. \"Why did you say I was messy?\" \"No, no, I said your code was messy.\" Taking that kind of feedback on the code very personal and getting agitated instead of seeing opportunity for growth in the career.\n\nCHAD: Would you say that most of the people that work with you are doing it while they're going through a transition or in between looking for their next thing? Or are they doing it while they're in a position hoping to improve within that existing company?\n\nDAGNA: So all three paths that you mentioned are very valid. It depends on what people are doing, what their goals are. When I work with my clients, we work one on one. So it's very tailored to their specific and unique situation and their needs. But I can tell you that from last year, my absolute best example was one client who came to me because he felt that he was being an undervalued senior engineer. \n\nAnd he wanted to promote himself and maybe move on from the job that he was in at the time that he didn't see much opportunity for growth. And he was just stagnant. \"Help me market myself. I need to get out of this current situation. I know I have the potential. And I want to find something more exciting to work on.\" As we worked together, within three and a half months, he became a startup CTO, which was a dream come true for him. But he didn't believe at the time before we worked together that he could actually make that happen for himself.\n\nThen I had another client who, within two months of us working together, was preparing to land a team lead position. But he actually was able to jump two levels up, and he became a VP of innovation at his own company.\n\nCHAD: Cool.\n\nDAGNA: It so happened that as we worked together, his company was going through a massive spurt of growth. And because he was the right person working on the right skills at the right time, he became the VP which is incredible. \n\nAnd I had another client just recently who felt that he was overworking himself. He was coming also from a military background. So he had certain beliefs that they served him in the military, but they were not really helpful for progressing in the tech industry. And as we worked together, he was able to not only stop overworking himself and have a better relationship with his wife; he also landed a new job where he doubled his salary. He went from 109,000 a year to 220,000. That actually made even my jaw drop a little. [laughter] \n\nBut it shows you how powerful the process is that I follow with my clients. It's really about the engineering mindset. It's about how to think about career growth and how to prioritize certain things depending on which stage of your career you're in.\n\nCHAD: Are there other common pitfalls or mistakes that developers make that hold them back?\n\nDAGNA: So absolutely the limiting belief that I mentioned earlier, believing that your work speaks for itself. I feel like 80% of people that I work with have that limiting belief, and we work to get past that. \n\nAnother thing that is pretty common is not understanding how you come across. That's a problem that I had in my career. When I mentioned that I was a senior engineer for a few years and I felt stuck, I wanted to advance, but it wasn't happening for me. It wasn't clear why it wasn't happening until I started working with someone who was open enough to provide me some tough love type of feedback. One time he told me, \"Dagna, why are you calling these people idiots?\" And I'm like, \"I never said that.\"\n\nCHAD: [chuckles] \n\nDAGNA: My intention was really pure, good, coming from my heart and my soul, from really good intentions. But my intentions were completely different from the message that got across, right?\n\nCHAD: Was it your tone, what you were saying? What was it that made that come across? \n\nDAGNA: Part of it is not being assertive enough. And I should probably mention here that I am an immigrant to the United States. I originally grew up and got educated back in Poland, my home country. And the way we communicate in Poland is completely different than how we communicate here in the United States. And at the very beginning, I didn't really understand how my communication impacts my career. \n\nSo essentially, as a senior engineer, I was way too direct. And I was using words that were triggering for some people. So I had to learn how to be more assertive, how to communicate to people that I get where they're coming from, what is their perspective, what it is that they're trying to accomplish in the conversation. Once I started doing that, I actually got the offer to get promoted to the engineering manager that I was working towards. \n\nBut the funny thing is that was the day that I actually came into the office and put my notice in because I was so sad of being a coach by then. I was like; I figured this communication thing out. I need to spread the word.\n\nCHAD: [laughs]\n\nDAGNA: It's way too important for me to now be a manager, nah, nah, nah. I have more lives to impact here than just the team that I might be working with.\n\nMid-roll Ad\n\nI wanted to tell you all about something I've been working on quietly for the past year or so, and that's AgencyU. AgencyU is a membership-based program where I work one-on-one with a small group of agency founders and leaders toward their business goals. \n\nWe do one-on-one coaching sessions and also monthly group meetings. We start with goal setting, advice, and problem-solving based on my experiences over the last 18 years of running thoughtbot. As we progress as a group, we all get to know each other more. And many of the AgencyU members are now working on client projects together and even referring work to each other. \n\nWhether you're struggling to grow an agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in my 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot, I've seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and I'd be happy to work with you. Learn more and sign up today at thoughtbot.com/agencyu. That's A-G-E-N-C-Y, the letter U.\n\nCHAD: That's great. And it segues really nicely into the next question I was going to ask you, which is your experience with the cultural differences. There's a general trend in the market that we're seeing now in more companies hiring remotely, opening up the candidate pool to people who live all over the place. And not only does that expose more people to be hired by different companies, but it broadens the candidate pool. So you're competing against even more people. So is that something that you're seeing as well? And how do people position themselves within the global market now, particularly if they're not in the U.S.? \n\nDAGNA: Well, if we're talking about global market, we got to be mindful that for a company that's located in the United States or any other country for that matter, there are tax implications. So it really depends on the company and how they are set up to be able to pay out salaries offshore or hire contractors offshore. Because the reality is that a lot of clients of mine that are from the European Union, for example, a lot of clients of mine that are in the EU, if they wanted to apply for companies in the United States, they wouldn't really be considered because of those tax implications.\n\nSo even though a lot of companies open up and want to hire people from abroad, not every company does that. And even if companies say that they are open for remote workers, it really depends on how they're paying their taxes and how all that is set up. So the way I see it is there is a movement towards opening up for remote work. But it's definitely not about competing across the globe, not yet at least.\n\nCHAD: I think maybe my perspective is a little bit skewed on it just because of where we're at. So are you saying that developers should do their due diligence about what companies they actually want to work for?\n\nDAGNA: Absolutely, yeah. I mean, applying for a company that is not set up in a way that can support paying salaries outside or even having those international agreements in place, you're just wasting your time applying there and setting yourself up for frustration because they're not going to reach back to you. \n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's good advice.\n\nDAGNA: Now, in terms of your work with remote positions, who do you usually work with, Chad?\n\nCHAD: Are you asking from developers that we typically work with or who do we --\n\nDAGNA: Yes. I was curious, like, what's the amount of people that you work with that are actually remote and worldwide? What is your experience there?\n\nCHAD: So last year at thoughtbot, we got rid of all of our offices, and we went fully remote. And when we did that, it took us a little while to get everything organized. But when we did, our goal was to open it up based on time zone, not based on country that you live in. And so we organized into two teams, all of the Americas and Europe, Middle East and Africa is the second team. \n\nDAGNA: So I'm curious, what are the tax implications of you guys paying out those salaries?\n\nCHAD: So we use a company called remote.com along with a few other partners that provide employer record in the country that you live in. So there's an actual entity. You're fully paid according to local rules with actual salary benefits, paid time off, all that stuff. And you are a real employee of that entity in that country. And then what they do is they invoice us for that total amount. \n\nDAGNA: Ah, that's awesome.\n\nCHAD: And they handle all the local employment, which is great because up until that point, we previously had to have entities of our own in every country in order to do it right because we really want to do it right. We're not that big, and so it's a lot of overhead for us to be able to do that. So working with partner companies, companies that provide that local entity is the direction we've gone in, and it's worked really well overall.\n\nDAGNA: Awesome. Glad to hear that.\n\nCHAD: And I think in general, I'm trying to spread the word about that because I do think it is important. There are a lot of companies out there. This is building on what you said before. There are a lot of companies out there that are, on one hand, doing things incorrectly or, on the other, they might not have good intentions; they're sort of purposely taking advantage by having people work as contractors when they probably really shouldn't be.\n\nDAGNA: Oh yeah, I hear you. \n\nCHAD: I'm curious, in your role now, do you still code at all?\n\nDAGNA: So I gave up coding for now. I essentially left my last engineering job in March of last year, and I've been fully focused on coaching. Coaching as it is is a skill as well. And I realized that if I really want to make an impact, I have to have my attention fully devoted to that business. And part of it too is business growth. \n\nA skill that I'm learning right now is writing, writing a newsletter, writing posts on social media, and just sharing what I think is very important and what is not really being talked about enough like the communication, like the human side of software, like career growth, and the fact that we are set up to overvalue the technical skillset in terms of career growth. And all this really takes up my time and my effort.\n\nCHAD: One of the things that resonated with me when I looked at your website was this idea of being clear on your personal definition of fulfillment. Fulfillment is one of the things we talk a lot about at thoughtbot. It's one of our core values. And so, how has it been for you to transition away from coding? And do you think you're going to be fulfilled by that over the long term? \n\nDAGNA: Oh, absolutely, yeah. It's been a blast. Here's the thing, as I help my clients achieve spectacular results, that's what really puts me on fire. And I wake up every day thinking, damn, I can help people in very critical moments in their life. \n\nI had a client who, as we were coaching together, unfortunately, his father passed away. And he told me that thanks to the coaching that we did together and the mindset training that we did, he was able to cope with this difficult situation in his life so much better, not to mention how that impacted his career. \n\nSo I get to really help, really have a huge impact on people's lives, and that's something that really is incredible for me. That is my personal definition of fulfillment. And I like to say that I used to be programming, and now I'm re-programming human minds. \n\nCHAD: So this idea of personal definition of fulfillment, first, why is it important to be clear on that?\n\nDAGNA: It affects your energy levels, your motivation. If you're working in a place that might be giving you an incredible benefits package, but every day you wake up, and you just don't want to go to work, that is something that I like to call golden handcuffs because you're essentially in hell, in prison. And it feels horrible to be in a situation like that. And I have experienced it myself where I felt like I have so much potential within me. Why am I wasting my time here? Even though the money was great, the benefits were good, but I knew I had so much more within me. \n\nAnd figuring out the personal definition of fulfillment is really what helped me open my eyes that; hey, my job was great, but it wasn't something that I really wanted to do. It's kind of like being in a relationship that just doesn't work, but you're in it just because. [laughs] Isn't it so much better to work in a place that is meaningful to you, that supports your values, that fits your desired lifestyle, someplace that every day that you wake up, you're really excited about going to work? Isn't that a much better way to live?\n\nCHAD: Yeah. What if someone finds themselves understanding that these are the skills that they should have to be a really great developer and advance in their career and maybe even making progress on that? Are there other things...you used the term earlier about marketing yourself. Does that mean having a great personal website? What does it mean when you say that?\n\nDAGNA: Well, I really mean being able to talk about your accomplishments, depending on which stakeholders you're talking to. So if you're trying to pitch an idea to your product manager, then talking at the product manager level, being able to show how what you do or the idea that you have contributes to the business. If you're in an interview setting, how to discuss what you have accomplished with the people that might want to potentially hire you. \n\nIt also is related to having your LinkedIn in a way that attracts attention and brings people in that you actually wanted to work with. I've had some people come to me and say, \"You know what? I get seven; eight offers every single day on LinkedIn.\" And I'm like, that's great. But are these the offers that you actually want to work on? Is it something that you actually want to pursue, or you just want to keep getting those notifications?\" \n\nAnd oftentimes, whenever we have our LinkedIn profiles set up, what happens is we put the keywords there. I know this tech stack; I know this framework. I've worked with this language, blah, blah, blah. And what's missing is who you are as a person, what you value. What do you expect from a workplace? What kind of change do you want to make in the world? What is really important to you? What are your expectations? \n\nAnd I think that the pandemic, in a way, showed that, that as we got to work from home, we got to re-evaluate what is really important in our lives. Back when you used to go to the office, you would have that disconnect between the work and the life. And you could strive for some work-life balance but keep them kind of separate. \n\nNow, with everything being super entangled, it kind of forces you to reevaluate okay, what is really important for me? Is it important for me to eat breakfast with my kids and drop them off at school, and pushing that meeting to a little bit later during the day? Or is it important to me to clock out after 6:00 so I can be with my kids after they get back from school? Or do I really care about maybe doing all my work after 6:00 p.m. because that's when my brain lights on fire? Have you found yourself going back to re-thinking what is important in life after the remote work started?\n\nCHAD: [laughs] Well, yes, and no. Yes, but I also have made a habit of doing that.\n\nDAGNA: Oh, perfect. \n\nCHAD: As a result, I often dramatically either change my schedule or my focus or something about every two years. And that has been critical to me to be able to do this for so long. I haven't really worked...I've been doing this for more than 18 years now, but I haven't really worked in the same job more than two or three years. Even though it might be the same title, the job has dramatically changed. And that's through my own personal initiative of realizing what I need to do to be fulfilled now. And I'm fortunately in a position where I can make those changes happen.\n\nDAGNA: That's great. But I kind of want to share that I believe everybody's in a position to actually do that. \n\nCHAD: Yeah, I agree.\n\nDAGNA: Especially in engineering. There are so many opportunities for growth. It's kind of ridiculous. You can be an embedded engineer and become a front-end engineer. You can go into the backend, and then you can do DevOps, and then you can become an engineering manager. And then you can go back to being an individual contributor if you wanted to. \n\nI mean, you could just move up, down, left, right, check things out, see what's fun, what's not, change industries. So there's just so much opportunity for growth. And I think it's also very human wanting to grow, wanting to learn more, trying to kind of push the boundaries and check what's out there outside of your comfort zone. I think that's very human.\n\nCHAD: Yeah. Well, if people want to get in touch with you or find out more, where are the best places for them to do that?\n\nDAGNA: The absolute best place is going to my website, theMindfulDev.com/podcast. And that link will actually redirect you to a case study of a client of mine that explains how I work with clients. So if you're interested for us to get to work together, you can just go there and watch the case study video, and let's go from there.\n\nCHAD: Awesome. You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode along with transcripts at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening and see you next time.\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.Special Guest: Dagna Bieda.Sponsored By:AgencyU: AgencyU is a membership-based program where Chad Pytel works one on one with a small group of Agency founders and leaders toward their business goals. You'll do one-on-one coaching sessions and also monthly group meetings. You'll start with goal setting, advice, and problem solving based on Chad's experiences over the last 18 years of running thoughtbot. As you progress as a group, you all get to know each other more and many of the AgencyU members are now working on client projects together and referring work to each other.\r\n\r\nWhether you’re struggling to grow your agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in his 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot, Chad has seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and would be happy to work with you too.\r\n\r\nLearn more and sign up at thoughtbot.com/agencyu","content_html":"Dagna Bieda is an engineer, career coach, and founder of theMindfulDev.com. She talks with Chad about being a software engineer first and then becoming a career coach who has helped a big range of clients with communication and marketing themselves successfully.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Dagna Bieda, engineer, career coach, and founder of theMindfulDev.com. Dagna, thanks for joining me.
\n\nDAGNA: Absolutely. It's a blast being here. So thanks for having me over, Chad.
\n\nCHAD: So what you do is a little bit unique in that you provide career coaching to engineers. But you yourself are an engineer and have a background in engineering. So how did you arrive at what you're doing today?
\n\nDAGNA: Yeah, you're exactly on point there. I was a software engineer and then turned into career coaching. So essentially, I've been coding for over ten years and coaching for the past 3. And I'm the tough love, “I've been in your shoes” kind of coach because I have that engineering experience.
\n\nAnd a little bit about what it is that I did as a software engineer is I essentially moved from programming in microcontrollers in C through cell phone towers, providing LTE networks in C++. I also did behaviors of social robots in C++. I wrote a distributed web app in Ruby on Rails. And I also wrote some mobile apps for parking and transit in Swift and Java.
\n\nHaving that range of experience, I really get to help a big range of clients. My former clients have worked for LinkedIn, Amazon, Google, Disney, as well as much smaller businesses. And their own experience was ranging anywhere from 2 to 20 years of experience. And I had clients who are self-taught, who are career-changing bootcamp grads, who are college grads. And my goal as a coach is to really help them reach for their potential.
\n\nCHAD: Now, did you arrive at this because you yourself struggled with some of these things? Or did you have it easy and you said, "Oh, I don't understand why these other people..." [laughs]
\n\nDAGNA: So both of these questions are exactly on point. I feel like I had it very easy at the very beginning of my career. I essentially got promoted to a senior engineer very quickly. It took about two years or something, so like superfast. But then, as a senior engineer, there was a moment where I felt that I've just plateaued in my career, and I was stuck, and I was frustrated. And I wanted to learn all the technologies out there. And what was missing was some people skills.
\n\nSo once I finally was able to figure out okay, this is what I'm missing...and in hindsight, it was so obvious. I decided to move into career coaching because I realized that we're kind of brainwashed, so to speak, to put the technology on a pedestal and ignore everything else, right?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah.
\n\nDAGNA: But if you don't work on your soft skills and don't realize that at the end, it's all humans because you're working with humans...you're creating products for humans. So it's not something you can really escape from. That was like a huge aha moment. I was like, people don't even know this is important. Like, I got to change that. [laughs] That was a mission for me to change that, to help discover what are those roadblocks? What are those limiting beliefs that software engineers often have that keep them stuck in their career and frustrated and stopping them from really fulfilling their potential?
\n\nCHAD: I often say that almost all problems are actually communication problems at their heart.
\n\nDAGNA: Ooh, yes.
\n\nCHAD: And in consulting, we have clients who come to us with what they think is a technical problem. And we have to sometimes tell them like, "We can fix this problem. But if you don't address the underlying communication problem that caused it in the first place, it's just going to happen again."
\n\nDAGNA: Absolutely, yeah.
\n\nCHAD: So I think that's a problem engineers have is that they try to apply technical problems or think code is the solution to every problem.
\n\nDAGNA: Well, it's not just that. Let's think about how software engineers are trained into their careers. If you have a class and you need to deliver a piece of code that compiles and does whatever it was meant to do for your assignment, even if you had incredible communications with your teammate and partner, even if you negotiated changes in the scope of features, it's all not going to matter for you passing your class if the code doesn't compile and if it doesn't do what it's supposed to do.
\n\nSo early on, whenever we're creating software, we're taught how to create software. We're being taught to put technology on a pedestal. And I've worked with multiple senior engineers that feel really frustrated because they're so knowledgeable but aren't able to communicate all this knowledge that they have in their own mind.
\n\nThey might be having brilliant ideas that might be helping their businesses grow and get past helping the businesses they work for grow. And they're not able to pitch those ideas and not able to really be heard and seen for the value that they bring to the table. And this is where I come in, and this is what I help with, getting past that frustration and that feeling of being stuck.
\n\nCHAD: And just to clarify if I'm following right, and what I'm advocating is this isn't just if you're a developer and want to move into management. This is for just moving up in your career as a developer, right?
\n\nDAGNA: Absolutely. Here's the thing, even if you're going to become the principal architect in the company, what are the skills that you need to have? It's not just technical expertise. If you have technical expertise and you're not able to talk about it with the business stakeholders that don't have the same amount of knowledge that you do, then you're not going to get to that point. Principal engineers create direction in the company, make decisions, have to be mindful about the business value that they're creating, not just the underlying tech stack.
\n\nSo as we grow in our careers as software engineers, it is really critical to, once you have, I'd say, five years of experience as a software engineer, to start working on the soft skills. And to be honest, someone who has gone through a coding bootcamp because they had less of that brainwashing about putting the technology on the pedestal often tend to advance in their careers much faster because they bring that previous experience with them to the table, so they can communicate better. They have different types of ideas, different perceptions. They don't have those limiting beliefs that a lot of developers have.
\n\nThe number one limiting belief that I see my clients have is believing that the work they do speaks for itself, and it doesn't unless someone literally dives into the code that you wrote. So for you to be able to advocate for your career, you need to be able to say, "Hey, I wrote this feature," and not expect people to dive into the code and look through the feature and all the lines of code you wrote. It’s to be able to emphasize the business impact that the feature you wrote had on the business, and how it helped, how you contributed to the business side. And that's something that I work with developers on.
\n\nNow, you did mention, Chad, that you work with a lot of developers, right?
\n\nCHAD: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
\n\nDAGNA: Would you say that marketing what developers do is a huge thing holding people back in their career?
\n\nCHAD: Yes, not only because of what I said earlier about a lot of the root causes of problems are around actual communication. But you're right; when it comes to who you can rely on in your company, who you can communicate with, who gets their ideas across more, it comes down to being able to communicate those ideas and that value. Even little things like when the code you've been working on is ready on staging, don't just say, "It's on staging. Check it out," and moving the ticket forward.
\n\nDAGNA: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: But actually being able to communicate what you've done either through words or screenshots. I think we've all been in scenarios where you're working on a complicated ticket, and you are making decisions along the way about how to do that. And you make all those decisions, and they're the best decisions in the world. But if you just put that ticket up for a review and say, "It's on staging," it's either not going to be accepted, or you're going to get tons of questions around why you did this. What did you consider when you were doing this? It's like a lack of trust and understanding there.
\n\nBut if instead, you say, "Here are all the things I'm considering along the way." And you say, "I've balanced all of these priorities, and here's the decision I've made, and it's on staging, and it works like this. And here's where you go to view it. And click on this. And here's a movie that shows how it works". People are going to be like, "Oh, sounds great. Accepted."
\n\nDAGNA: Yeah, absolutely. But here's the thing. As developers, we're not taught to do all these things that you just described. We're taught to write code that compiles, boom, done. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: So when working with people who have this sort of mindset o the skill gap, what are some things that you have people do to level up?
\n\nDAGNA: Yeah, there are certain things that we specifically work on, and that is negotiation, setting expectations and boundaries, being able to respectfully either decline a change in scope of work or try to negotiate the change of a deadline whenever there's an impossible feature request. Or things like being able to set expectations that if you're working on your focus time, that you shouldn't be disrupted.
\n\nAnd it's something that's very hard because developers usually really want to be helpful. So when a product manager comes to them and says, "Hey, I really need this. It's for a critical client," what happens is most often than not, they're going to drop everything they were doing just to finish that one thing and be helpful. And so being able to create a boundary saying, "Hey, I'll get back to you after I'm done working on what it is that I'm working," is a skill.
\n\nBeing able to market what you did and being able to show the business value, how your work contributed to the business side is also a skill. And even having communication with your manager telling them, "Hey, I realize that I need to work on XYZ. Would you be willing to give me feedback? Because we go to the meetings together, you see how I communicate; you see how I think, you see how I act. Give me more feedback. What can I do to grow in my career?" So asking for that feedback is a skill. So there are a lot of moving elements, and these are the skills that I work with on my clients.
\n\nBut there's a big thing that I want to address here too is that with technology changing and being at such a fast pace, it is very important to give yourself grace, especially when you're starting out. Be patient with yourself to give yourself that time to actually master the tech part. And it's really important to see and understand how you think about your career growth. Do you beat yourself up in your mind, or do you actually see the opportunities for growth?
\n\nWith developers, since we're not being taught how to communicate effectively with other people, oftentimes, when someone wants to give us feedback that might help us in our career, we get defensive because it feels like an attack on our character. And I see it with juniors all the time. "Why did you say I was messy?" "No, no, I said your code was messy." Taking that kind of feedback on the code very personal and getting agitated instead of seeing opportunity for growth in the career.
\n\nCHAD: Would you say that most of the people that work with you are doing it while they're going through a transition or in between looking for their next thing? Or are they doing it while they're in a position hoping to improve within that existing company?
\n\nDAGNA: So all three paths that you mentioned are very valid. It depends on what people are doing, what their goals are. When I work with my clients, we work one on one. So it's very tailored to their specific and unique situation and their needs. But I can tell you that from last year, my absolute best example was one client who came to me because he felt that he was being an undervalued senior engineer.
\n\nAnd he wanted to promote himself and maybe move on from the job that he was in at the time that he didn't see much opportunity for growth. And he was just stagnant. "Help me market myself. I need to get out of this current situation. I know I have the potential. And I want to find something more exciting to work on." As we worked together, within three and a half months, he became a startup CTO, which was a dream come true for him. But he didn't believe at the time before we worked together that he could actually make that happen for himself.
\n\nThen I had another client who, within two months of us working together, was preparing to land a team lead position. But he actually was able to jump two levels up, and he became a VP of innovation at his own company.
\n\nCHAD: Cool.
\n\nDAGNA: It so happened that as we worked together, his company was going through a massive spurt of growth. And because he was the right person working on the right skills at the right time, he became the VP which is incredible.
\n\nAnd I had another client just recently who felt that he was overworking himself. He was coming also from a military background. So he had certain beliefs that they served him in the military, but they were not really helpful for progressing in the tech industry. And as we worked together, he was able to not only stop overworking himself and have a better relationship with his wife; he also landed a new job where he doubled his salary. He went from 109,000 a year to 220,000. That actually made even my jaw drop a little. [laughter]
\n\nBut it shows you how powerful the process is that I follow with my clients. It's really about the engineering mindset. It's about how to think about career growth and how to prioritize certain things depending on which stage of your career you're in.
\n\nCHAD: Are there other common pitfalls or mistakes that developers make that hold them back?
\n\nDAGNA: So absolutely the limiting belief that I mentioned earlier, believing that your work speaks for itself. I feel like 80% of people that I work with have that limiting belief, and we work to get past that.
\n\nAnother thing that is pretty common is not understanding how you come across. That's a problem that I had in my career. When I mentioned that I was a senior engineer for a few years and I felt stuck, I wanted to advance, but it wasn't happening for me. It wasn't clear why it wasn't happening until I started working with someone who was open enough to provide me some tough love type of feedback. One time he told me, "Dagna, why are you calling these people idiots?" And I'm like, "I never said that."
\n\nCHAD: [chuckles]
\n\nDAGNA: My intention was really pure, good, coming from my heart and my soul, from really good intentions. But my intentions were completely different from the message that got across, right?
\n\nCHAD: Was it your tone, what you were saying? What was it that made that come across?
\n\nDAGNA: Part of it is not being assertive enough. And I should probably mention here that I am an immigrant to the United States. I originally grew up and got educated back in Poland, my home country. And the way we communicate in Poland is completely different than how we communicate here in the United States. And at the very beginning, I didn't really understand how my communication impacts my career.
\n\nSo essentially, as a senior engineer, I was way too direct. And I was using words that were triggering for some people. So I had to learn how to be more assertive, how to communicate to people that I get where they're coming from, what is their perspective, what it is that they're trying to accomplish in the conversation. Once I started doing that, I actually got the offer to get promoted to the engineering manager that I was working towards.
\n\nBut the funny thing is that was the day that I actually came into the office and put my notice in because I was so sad of being a coach by then. I was like; I figured this communication thing out. I need to spread the word.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nDAGNA: It's way too important for me to now be a manager, nah, nah, nah. I have more lives to impact here than just the team that I might be working with.
\n\nMid-roll Ad
\n\nI wanted to tell you all about something I've been working on quietly for the past year or so, and that's AgencyU. AgencyU is a membership-based program where I work one-on-one with a small group of agency founders and leaders toward their business goals.
\n\nWe do one-on-one coaching sessions and also monthly group meetings. We start with goal setting, advice, and problem-solving based on my experiences over the last 18 years of running thoughtbot. As we progress as a group, we all get to know each other more. And many of the AgencyU members are now working on client projects together and even referring work to each other.
\n\nWhether you're struggling to grow an agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in my 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot, I've seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and I'd be happy to work with you. Learn more and sign up today at thoughtbot.com/agencyu. That's A-G-E-N-C-Y, the letter U.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. And it segues really nicely into the next question I was going to ask you, which is your experience with the cultural differences. There's a general trend in the market that we're seeing now in more companies hiring remotely, opening up the candidate pool to people who live all over the place. And not only does that expose more people to be hired by different companies, but it broadens the candidate pool. So you're competing against even more people. So is that something that you're seeing as well? And how do people position themselves within the global market now, particularly if they're not in the U.S.?
\n\nDAGNA: Well, if we're talking about global market, we got to be mindful that for a company that's located in the United States or any other country for that matter, there are tax implications. So it really depends on the company and how they are set up to be able to pay out salaries offshore or hire contractors offshore. Because the reality is that a lot of clients of mine that are from the European Union, for example, a lot of clients of mine that are in the EU, if they wanted to apply for companies in the United States, they wouldn't really be considered because of those tax implications.
\n\nSo even though a lot of companies open up and want to hire people from abroad, not every company does that. And even if companies say that they are open for remote workers, it really depends on how they're paying their taxes and how all that is set up. So the way I see it is there is a movement towards opening up for remote work. But it's definitely not about competing across the globe, not yet at least.
\n\nCHAD: I think maybe my perspective is a little bit skewed on it just because of where we're at. So are you saying that developers should do their due diligence about what companies they actually want to work for?
\n\nDAGNA: Absolutely, yeah. I mean, applying for a company that is not set up in a way that can support paying salaries outside or even having those international agreements in place, you're just wasting your time applying there and setting yourself up for frustration because they're not going to reach back to you.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's good advice.
\n\nDAGNA: Now, in terms of your work with remote positions, who do you usually work with, Chad?
\n\nCHAD: Are you asking from developers that we typically work with or who do we --
\n\nDAGNA: Yes. I was curious, like, what's the amount of people that you work with that are actually remote and worldwide? What is your experience there?
\n\nCHAD: So last year at thoughtbot, we got rid of all of our offices, and we went fully remote. And when we did that, it took us a little while to get everything organized. But when we did, our goal was to open it up based on time zone, not based on country that you live in. And so we organized into two teams, all of the Americas and Europe, Middle East and Africa is the second team.
\n\nDAGNA: So I'm curious, what are the tax implications of you guys paying out those salaries?
\n\nCHAD: So we use a company called remote.com along with a few other partners that provide employer record in the country that you live in. So there's an actual entity. You're fully paid according to local rules with actual salary benefits, paid time off, all that stuff. And you are a real employee of that entity in that country. And then what they do is they invoice us for that total amount.
\n\nDAGNA: Ah, that's awesome.
\n\nCHAD: And they handle all the local employment, which is great because up until that point, we previously had to have entities of our own in every country in order to do it right because we really want to do it right. We're not that big, and so it's a lot of overhead for us to be able to do that. So working with partner companies, companies that provide that local entity is the direction we've gone in, and it's worked really well overall.
\n\nDAGNA: Awesome. Glad to hear that.
\n\nCHAD: And I think in general, I'm trying to spread the word about that because I do think it is important. There are a lot of companies out there. This is building on what you said before. There are a lot of companies out there that are, on one hand, doing things incorrectly or, on the other, they might not have good intentions; they're sort of purposely taking advantage by having people work as contractors when they probably really shouldn't be.
\n\nDAGNA: Oh yeah, I hear you.
\n\nCHAD: I'm curious, in your role now, do you still code at all?
\n\nDAGNA: So I gave up coding for now. I essentially left my last engineering job in March of last year, and I've been fully focused on coaching. Coaching as it is is a skill as well. And I realized that if I really want to make an impact, I have to have my attention fully devoted to that business. And part of it too is business growth.
\n\nA skill that I'm learning right now is writing, writing a newsletter, writing posts on social media, and just sharing what I think is very important and what is not really being talked about enough like the communication, like the human side of software, like career growth, and the fact that we are set up to overvalue the technical skillset in terms of career growth. And all this really takes up my time and my effort.
\n\nCHAD: One of the things that resonated with me when I looked at your website was this idea of being clear on your personal definition of fulfillment. Fulfillment is one of the things we talk a lot about at thoughtbot. It's one of our core values. And so, how has it been for you to transition away from coding? And do you think you're going to be fulfilled by that over the long term?
\n\nDAGNA: Oh, absolutely, yeah. It's been a blast. Here's the thing, as I help my clients achieve spectacular results, that's what really puts me on fire. And I wake up every day thinking, damn, I can help people in very critical moments in their life.
\n\nI had a client who, as we were coaching together, unfortunately, his father passed away. And he told me that thanks to the coaching that we did together and the mindset training that we did, he was able to cope with this difficult situation in his life so much better, not to mention how that impacted his career.
\n\nSo I get to really help, really have a huge impact on people's lives, and that's something that really is incredible for me. That is my personal definition of fulfillment. And I like to say that I used to be programming, and now I'm re-programming human minds.
\n\nCHAD: So this idea of personal definition of fulfillment, first, why is it important to be clear on that?
\n\nDAGNA: It affects your energy levels, your motivation. If you're working in a place that might be giving you an incredible benefits package, but every day you wake up, and you just don't want to go to work, that is something that I like to call golden handcuffs because you're essentially in hell, in prison. And it feels horrible to be in a situation like that. And I have experienced it myself where I felt like I have so much potential within me. Why am I wasting my time here? Even though the money was great, the benefits were good, but I knew I had so much more within me.
\n\nAnd figuring out the personal definition of fulfillment is really what helped me open my eyes that; hey, my job was great, but it wasn't something that I really wanted to do. It's kind of like being in a relationship that just doesn't work, but you're in it just because. [laughs] Isn't it so much better to work in a place that is meaningful to you, that supports your values, that fits your desired lifestyle, someplace that every day that you wake up, you're really excited about going to work? Isn't that a much better way to live?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. What if someone finds themselves understanding that these are the skills that they should have to be a really great developer and advance in their career and maybe even making progress on that? Are there other things...you used the term earlier about marketing yourself. Does that mean having a great personal website? What does it mean when you say that?
\n\nDAGNA: Well, I really mean being able to talk about your accomplishments, depending on which stakeholders you're talking to. So if you're trying to pitch an idea to your product manager, then talking at the product manager level, being able to show how what you do or the idea that you have contributes to the business. If you're in an interview setting, how to discuss what you have accomplished with the people that might want to potentially hire you.
\n\nIt also is related to having your LinkedIn in a way that attracts attention and brings people in that you actually wanted to work with. I've had some people come to me and say, "You know what? I get seven; eight offers every single day on LinkedIn." And I'm like, that's great. But are these the offers that you actually want to work on? Is it something that you actually want to pursue, or you just want to keep getting those notifications?"
\n\nAnd oftentimes, whenever we have our LinkedIn profiles set up, what happens is we put the keywords there. I know this tech stack; I know this framework. I've worked with this language, blah, blah, blah. And what's missing is who you are as a person, what you value. What do you expect from a workplace? What kind of change do you want to make in the world? What is really important to you? What are your expectations?
\n\nAnd I think that the pandemic, in a way, showed that, that as we got to work from home, we got to re-evaluate what is really important in our lives. Back when you used to go to the office, you would have that disconnect between the work and the life. And you could strive for some work-life balance but keep them kind of separate.
\n\nNow, with everything being super entangled, it kind of forces you to reevaluate okay, what is really important for me? Is it important for me to eat breakfast with my kids and drop them off at school, and pushing that meeting to a little bit later during the day? Or is it important to me to clock out after 6:00 so I can be with my kids after they get back from school? Or do I really care about maybe doing all my work after 6:00 p.m. because that's when my brain lights on fire? Have you found yourself going back to re-thinking what is important in life after the remote work started?
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] Well, yes, and no. Yes, but I also have made a habit of doing that.
\n\nDAGNA: Oh, perfect.
\n\nCHAD: As a result, I often dramatically either change my schedule or my focus or something about every two years. And that has been critical to me to be able to do this for so long. I haven't really worked...I've been doing this for more than 18 years now, but I haven't really worked in the same job more than two or three years. Even though it might be the same title, the job has dramatically changed. And that's through my own personal initiative of realizing what I need to do to be fulfilled now. And I'm fortunately in a position where I can make those changes happen.
\n\nDAGNA: That's great. But I kind of want to share that I believe everybody's in a position to actually do that.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I agree.
\n\nDAGNA: Especially in engineering. There are so many opportunities for growth. It's kind of ridiculous. You can be an embedded engineer and become a front-end engineer. You can go into the backend, and then you can do DevOps, and then you can become an engineering manager. And then you can go back to being an individual contributor if you wanted to.
\n\nI mean, you could just move up, down, left, right, check things out, see what's fun, what's not, change industries. So there's just so much opportunity for growth. And I think it's also very human wanting to grow, wanting to learn more, trying to kind of push the boundaries and check what's out there outside of your comfort zone. I think that's very human.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. Well, if people want to get in touch with you or find out more, where are the best places for them to do that?
\n\nDAGNA: The absolute best place is going to my website, theMindfulDev.com/podcast. And that link will actually redirect you to a case study of a client of mine that explains how I work with clients. So if you're interested for us to get to work together, you can just go there and watch the case study video, and let's go from there.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode along with transcripts at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
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Chad talks to Benjie De Groot, co-founder, and CEO of Shipyard. Shipyard manages, creates, builds, and deploys ephemeral environments.
\n\nBenjie talks about how Shipyard became a funded company, discovering who their ideal customers are, and building out the core team so Shipyard can accelerate and figure out their next steps in how to bring it to the masses.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel, and with me today is Benjie De Groot, co-founder, and CEO of Shipyard. Benjie, thanks for joining me.
\n\nBENJIE: Thanks for having me.
\n\nCHAD: Why don't we start by if you don't mind sharing a little bit about what Shipyard is and does?
\n\nBENJIE: Sure. At the core of what Shipyard is working on is ephemeral environments; not everybody knows what that means. That is changing a bit. But essentially, what we're focused on is on every pull request or commit for a feature; Shipyard manages, and creates, and builds, and deploys ephemeral environments. So that's a disposable one-off on-demand environment that any stakeholder in your internal company can use. And we focus on the tooling around that, on build pipeline, and then security around that. And then all kinds of other cool features that are necessary that pop up.
\n\nCHAD: Cool. So as a developer, I'm familiar with the concept of developing locally, putting up my pull requests. And also, we deploy a lot of stuff to Heroku. So I'm familiar with some of the infrastructure that Heroku might give. How did you arrive at saying like, this is a thing that I want to work on and believe should exist?
\n\nBENJIE: That's a great question. I actually am also a developer; that’s my background. And throughout the course of my career, I've always been on the technical side of the company. And what that's translated to, because of passion, to be honest, is always taking on a DevOps type role, so throughout the course of my career, a lot of responsibility.
\n\nI mean, I started off writing Bash scripts, went to Puppet, did Chef for a while, did Ansible. Somehow I went back to Bash scripts for a lot of this stuff. Then this company called DoCloud popped up, which obviously became Docker, and I kind of got obsessed with that. And then I had a bunch of friends at Google, and they were telling me about this creepy thing called Borg, and that became Kubernetes. And so, my career has kind of happened throughout that entire process. And throughout, DevOps has kind of been my passion.
\n\nAlong with my co-founder, Peter, I was a high-priced Kubernetes consultant in the New York ecosystem just a few years ago. And a lot of companies were trying to make the transition to Kubernetes. And Peter and myself came in and helped people that were struggling to find DevOps resources. And what that always kind of looked like was there was some bespoke version of a deployment system that was perfect for the person that wrote it. But obviously, it wasn't good enough for me and Peter, for Peter and myself.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nBENJIE: And so we would rewrite it, and it would be great. But then, eventually, we'd move on, and someone else would rewrite it. And there were a few instances where we ended up going back to companies and just reimplementing what we had already done. And throughout that process of being this consultant, we kept running into this ephemeral environment thing and building the same tooling over and over and over again.
\n\nSo Peter and I, on a weekend, kind of got, "Oh, let's make a tool for ourselves." So we did that. And we made this exoskeleton to help our consulting business. And as things progressed, we kept just adding features, and it was really fun, and it was great. And then some of our customers or clients saw that. And they were like, "Hey, can we click that button?" And we were like, "I guess."
\n\nAnd so slowly, it turned into a product that was very duct tape-y and glued together, but it worked great. And to be frank, I had been through the VC process on the technical side in the past and didn't want to go through that again, the hamster wheel of need to raise more and more money and so very, very averse. And was very set on a really nice lifestyle consulting business, and hell was going to have to freeze over for us to take any VC dollars.
\n\nAnd then I don't know if you heard, but in March of 2020, hell froze over, and [laughter] there was a little pandemic. And at the same time, we got some pre-emptive term sheets, yadda, yadda, yadda. Next thing you know, we're a funded company building out a really cool product. So that's the origin story of where Shipyard came from.
\n\nCHAD: Really cool. I definitely want to come back to what building the product for you has been like, and the funding, and where you go from here. But let's come back to the product itself. As a developer, my normal workflow is I'm working locally. I'm able to run the application that I'm working on locally here on my computer. I put up a pull request on GitHub. I ask my team to review it.
\n\nOnce it gets reviewed from a code perspective or a design perspective and gets a thumbs up, I merge it back into the main branch. And I deploy it to a staging server, at which point I would ask my stakeholder, my client, whatever, "Hey, this thing you're expecting it's on the staging server for you to check out." And everyone else on the team is doing the same thing. So where does Shipyard come in, and why is it better than that?
\n\nBENJIE: So where Shipyard comes in, it's after the local development but before you get to staging or really before you get to production because, in practicality, a lot of people turn Shipyard into their staging servers. But what happens is through webhooks, we hook into your GitHub. And we see that there's a new commit that comes in. And we automatically build and deploy a fully ephemeral environment for that feature. And what that gets you is a few things.
\n\nOne paradigm that we're seeing a lot of is when you make that PR, a lot of end-to-end test suites are being run automatically using Shipyard ephemeral environments. And what that gives you is, in some instances, before you even have a code review, you're passing the suite of tests. And what that gives you is you save a lot of time. If there's just a dumb migration error or some typo or something like that, you're not wasting human capital or human energy on those environments.
\n\nAnd the other instance there that gets really interesting is by bringing up these environments earlier on, product stakeholders and QA stakeholders can do their jobs earlier on in the process. And so you can avoid a lot of merge conflicts. So like, you merge something, and maybe there's an edge case that you hadn't tested for, and the code review didn't pick up. Well, all of a sudden, staging is broken. And some other team member that's using the same process you were now they're blocked. Or the client can't see that environment, and there's some other type of problem.
\n\nBut really, we didn't invent this paradigm. This is what FAANG does. There's a reason why I can't remember the last time that Gmail itself a button broke, or there was bad CSS, or bad HTML, same thing with Facebook, same thing with Netflix. Obviously, we all know about –-
\n\nCHAD: There's the obvious DNS outages.
\n\nBENJIE: [laughs] Right. I was going to say we all know about AWS, especially in December of 2021. That was a tough month. But yeah, from a UI/UX and controllable release perspective, this greatly increases your internal stakeholders’ ability to get their hands on features earlier, find problems, and then get those back to developers.
\n\nAnd the other thing, and maybe this is a question for you. But have you ever been in a situation where you built something, and it doesn't actually get reviewed for a few weeks? And then there is a bug, and you have to go back, and context switch off of what you're working on and go back and put a whole other mental model in place to go back and remember why did I use a switch statement here? That's a bad example but something to that effect.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] Yeah. Well, I really try to avoid that scenario by having tight feedback loops, but sometimes it's unavoidable. It might be you finish something right before a holiday or going away or something like that; that can happen. So it's happened to me before, yeah.
\n\nBENJIE: Right. And how do you get your product people or your UAT teams...when do they get to touch the feature that you're working on?
\n\nCHAD: It's usually not until after a code review when it's been merged into main and deployed to staging.
\n\nBENJIE: So that's kind of how we make that feedback loop tighter. And what we've seen in practice actually is a lot faster, more reliable releases. And there's a significant increase in the cadence of releases that can happen and a higher quality of those releases.
\n\nCHAD: You mentioned that some customers end up even getting rid of staging. And so that's really exciting and interesting to me. When they do that, what does the overall picture look like? Is the code merge manual? Or do you have customers that are doing continuous deployment off of a thumbs up from the person reviewing it in the ephemeral environment and getting that automatically merged, and then maybe canary deploy or something to production?
\n\nBENJIE: Yeah, that's a great question. The thing to keep in mind here is that the majority of our customers are larger, and they have bigger teams because obviously, this is a collaboration platform ultimately. And so there's more value for the more complex teams and more stakeholders. So we don't have anybody at this moment that I know of; there could be, doing LGTM is good enough. So there's always a manual component.
\n\nBut what it looks like from a staging perspective is that your main branch is actually ostensibly your staging environment, and so all the ephemeral environments are sort of dev environments that are shareable. And then when you merge because a code review passes, and QA checks, and UAT, then it gets automatically built into the main branch and the main environment. And then some people do QA. They'll final pass a QA or a final end-to-end test there. And then there's also a manual promotion to production as well. That's the typical pattern we've seen.
\n\nCHAD: Cool. One of the things that when I've used...sometimes a problem even with staging. But when I've used or been on projects with some ephemeral environments, getting good data in those environments can sometimes be a challenge. Is that something that Shipyard helps with? Or what's your recommended approach to that problem?
\n\nBENJIE: So that was one of the biggest problems we had early on. We put a lot of work into that. We apply the same git branch model to data. So the way that we do that is basically if you...oh, by the way, I forgot to mention something. We use Docker Compose as our application definition. So we extrapolate from Docker Compose and transpile into best practice Kubernetes YAMLs. So there is a little bit of inferring and magic we do in certain places. And one of the places we do that is if you have a named volume...sorry, am I getting too technical, or is this --?
\n\nCHAD: Not for me. And in fact, I have follow-up questions about [laughs] why you have that approach of converting.
\n\nBENJIE: We will dive into that in a second. And I have a whole bunch of redhead friends that make fun of me about Compose all the time, but I stick to my guns on that one. But I'm happy to talk about that. At high level, if you indicate to Shipyard this is a persistent volume that we want to make sure that child environments get, then we will do an instant snapshot. And we will actually provide that to the generated child ephemeral environment. And ostensibly, what that does is it allows you to test data migrations as well on these ephemeral environments.
\n\nNow, to go back to your initial question, we encourage...and we're working on some partnerships actually with some interesting companies. But we encourage people to specifically have their main data set on main be ostensibly a copy of whatever the good data set is. But obviously, you're responsible for pulling out your own PII and all the confidential stuff there. But the key thing here is you're maintaining one environment with the right data on it. And then all of the subsequent generated ephemeral environments inherit that and can then change that.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's cool. That solves a real pain point that I've had in the past when trying to work this way.
\n\nBENJIE: One company that I think is really interesting around this space is Tonic.ai. And we're actually working on some stuff with them, I think. But we share an investor, so that's why I know them, for disclaimer purposes. But they're great. And they have some really cool tooling around mapping your database to PII and automatic detection of certain types of information that you don't want pushed into your staging servers and to your developers' hands. So that's one to check out, too, if you're looking for data help.
\n\nCHAD: Cool. So do you want to get back to this Docker question? Why that approach of converting the Docker Compose into YAML for Kubernetes?
\n\nBENJIE: So this is quite a controversial topic.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nBENJIE: But I will tell you where it came from. Hearkening back to our origin story, what we saw was we saw a pattern of a lot of companies going a little bit too all-in in Kubernetes; let’s just put it that way, where every single one of the developers is running minikube or even K3s or K3d or whatever. And all of a sudden, the DevOps people and the SRE people in the organization are spending most of their time supporting developers in local development environments.
\n\nSo early on in that consulting game, we realized we don't want to do that. So if you want to work with us, we think you can use Docker Compose for most things. Now, that's obviously not always the case. There are some companies and applications that have hundreds of microservices. So obviously, Docker Compose is not a very realistic fit for those people. But the majority of people can pretty much encapsulate their application in Docker Compose. So that's one thing.
\n\nThe other thing is I mentioned to you that I'm a DevOps engineer for years. I'm sick of new YAML formats or specifications. So I have a saying, "Not another YAML, I say nay." My co-founder, Peter, hates when I say that, but whatever, I like it.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nBENJIE: So that's another piece of this. And then the biggest thing here is that we look at Docker Compose as rabbit ears on a television set. So you know, like a 98-year-old grandmother can somehow stand on one foot and hold the antenna the right way, and it's static. The picture is perfect, and they can watch...I don't know why I'm saying Jay Leno. I don't think it's on the air anymore.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nBENJIE: Sticking with the grandma reference, humans are really good at figuring out stuff like that. [laughs] And that's kind of what Docker compose is. It's kind of like if you can make it work locally, Shipyard is going to take care of the rest and clean up a bunch of stuff for you. So that's how we look at it.
\n\nAdmittedly, we do have some Helm stuff we're working on and some Kustomize (with a K) stuff. And there are a whole lot of other interesting things out there. But frankly, we haven't run into problems with our current approach. And when we have tried to ingest raw manifests and stuff like that, other issues tend to arise. So we use Compose as a funnel to be very opinionated about our Kubernetes deployments.
\n\nCHAD: Well, I'm a big believer in, especially in early days having opinions about things. And it sounds like, with this particular opinion, you not only can help people at different stages and say that "This is good enough," but you're also casting a wide net for what people can do. You're not cutting people off because they already use Kustomize or something like that.
\n\nBENJIE: Yeah. And a lot of it is about accessibility. And so it's proven to be a pretty interesting thing. We didn't think that we were going to go this far with it. [laughs] We really thought that we were going to get in trouble soon. But it's pretty cool how it's going.
\n\nAnd also, I will do a shout-out to the Docker Compose community. They're picking up some steam here. I think a lot of people are realizing that it's a pretty good spec for most use cases. So I know that Docker released somewhat recently you don't have to do Docker-Compose anymore. It's just Docker Compose. And there are all kinds of Compose specifications stuff that I think is worth checking out.
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\n\nCHAD: So to get a little bit meta for a minute, how do you use Shipyard on Shipyard?
\n\nBENJIE: The ultimate dog food. That is one of the biggest selling points to our own engineering team when recruiting. We've got a pretty spectacular team that comes from some pretty awesome companies. And people sometimes ask me, "Hey, how did you get these engineers?" And honestly, I think the answer is dogfooding. Because what we're building is what every DevOps engineer sets out to build every time they start their job, in my opinion.
\n\nYou always want this ephemeral type of elastic environments are only on when you need them to be on. I didn't discuss this, but we also have functionality that we call SLV or Since Last Visit. So we know the last time someone went to one of these environments, and we'll turn it off for you. And then, obviously, it's very quick to turn it back on when needed. So there are cost savings. There are all kinds of stuff there.
\n\nBut ultimately, we're building the ultimate DevOps tool. And so we use Shipyard to run Shipyard. We use it in our QA process. We use it in our end-to-end testing process. And we also use it in our production process as well. We have some of our...we do have a production offering, and we use that ourselves for our stuff. So it's a very recursive conversation around that.
\n\nAnd sometimes, when I'm actually doing a demo for various people, the only way to show or the only good demo I have of certain functionality is to actually show the Shipyard organization itself in Shipyard. And I get very recursively tied up, and people get confused. And it's always a bad idea.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] Yeah, you have to queue the Inception music.
\n\nBENJIE: Yeah, exactly. We're at the third level. We're at the ice palace or whatever, ice hideout at this point. That's from the movie Inception for those that don't know what we're talking about.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] Yeah, that's really cool. I imagine that...sometimes when I'm working on a project, and you get down to the instrumentation level, to those levels, it can be difficult to run the system on the system. Have there been particular challenges? It's not just a normal web app; I guess is the way of saying that. What Shipyard is isn't just a normal web app.
\n\nBENJIE: Yeah, one of the things that we do is that we have a pretty robust security posture, so every single one of our customers gets their own cluster. And so our security model is using the hypervisor basically, which, by the way, for anyone looking at Kubernetes, forget Shipyard for a second. Please understand that if you're in a shared namespace anything, our back is great, but don't do it. There's a CVE around on the corner, I promise you. Don't do it. Anyway.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] That's a good PSA for people.
\n\nBENJIE: Yeah, right? [laughs] Yeah. So some of the cool challenges we've had is we early on, we definitely had some stuff where if we did a bad release, we would break our own ability to fix our own releases. So that was that way early on. We figured that one out very early. I think that was even before we were a product even. That was just a few sleepless nights of Peter and myself being like, oh God; we got to fix this so that we don't screw up this client's website. So that's been interesting. I mean, that was really it.
\n\nAnd my co-founder, Peter, is listening to this, and he's like, there are 4,000 different things I've fixed over the last few years that were a problem around this, and I can't bring them up. But there's a lot, and I don't know what they are. And Peter is very good at fixing them. So that speaks to my co-founder and the rest of the team.
\n\nCHAD: So you mentioned that March of 2020 happened, hell froze over. And you found yourself thinking you're going to take a different path and fundraise and become a funded company. How difficult did you find fundraising in that environment, or was it easy?
\n\nBENJIE: It was real tough at the beginning there. For one, I have no idea what I'm doing. [laughter] That's just the truth. Maybe I should say that in the past tense. I had no idea what I was doing. I still feel like I have no idea what I'm doing.
\n\nBut like I said, I come from a technical side, and I'm a bit of an engineer. So if a VC asked me a question and the answer is yes, but I have to qualify it with some weird edge case that I came up with. That's not a great look for these types of pitch meetings. So I would suggest people not overengineer answers to questions, yes or no works very often. So it was challenging.
\n\nBut also, at the time, I'll say that there was definitely some predatory term sheets going around because this was really early, and we had no idea. And I was a fool...I wasn't a fool, but I had no idea. We're running this consulting company, and I'm like, oh my God, all my customers are funded. They're all going to go away. We had some pretty large customers. It was very irrational looking back. But it was a crazy time. Also, I should mention that we're in New York. So things were heightened a lot more also in March of 2020. It was very intense, and so I had to learn a lot.
\n\nAnd basically, the realization like, oh, if the world becomes remote, software is just going to go crazy had not seeped into my brain quite yet in March or April. So did a lot of learning that way. We were very fortunate to have some really helpful people along that path and eventually figured it out.
\n\nI will say, funny story, I literally didn't have a pitch for three months. I would just do a demo and talk about stuff. And then a friend of mine was like, "Oh, what's your pitch?" And I was like, "I do a demo, and I talk about it." So he's like, "Dude, you got to have a pitch." So that helped a lot once I figured out [laughs] that I needed a pitch.
\n\nCHAD: It did help. So you recommend people have a pitch.
\n\nBENJIE: I would say that that is a positive, yes. Having a pitch is helpful. I know that that's a ridiculous statement here, but I literally didn't have...I just didn't think about what's my pitch?
\n\nCHAD: Well, I think it's simultaneously a ridiculous thing but also there exist in the world things that people do just because that's the way that they're done. And so it's valid, I think to say, "Do we really need that? Can we get by without it?" And if the lesson learned there is actually there's a reason why people do it and it is valuable, that's a valuable lesson. It's too bad you had to go through it to discover it.
\n\nBENJIE: Well, yeah. I look back fondly at that. And I wouldn't say I was being contrarian. I was just kind of being a jackass, frankly. But I learned a lot. And honestly, in the end, I couldn't be happier. I'm pretty anti-VC. Everyone knows that about me. I like to make fun of them and all these things. But I couldn't be happier with our investors, and they've been unbelievably supportive. And so that's been a super positive.
\n\nThe one thing I would say to anyone listening to this podcast that has to go out and raise money is you got to get really good at letting things roll off your shoulder. As an engineer, it's really hard for me to deal with any level of rejection because I'm like, oh, it works, or it doesn't work. Oh, you found this edge case that I didn't think about? Oh, you got me, but I'll fix it now, and now it's fine. That's not the way that fundraising works.
\n\nYou have certain conversations, and you feel super positive. And then, all of a sudden, you don't hear back from this person for weeks at a time. You have other conversations where you think that it was the worst thing that you've ever done. And the next day, you get a term sheet.
\n\nI had one pitch...this is when I knew how to do a pitch. This was a few months in. I had this one pitch, and it was all virtual, and it was very early days in our remote world. And there were four partners on this call and a few associates or whatever. And I do the pitch, but everyone is muted on Zoom for 45 minutes. Now, it's pretty clear from our conversation that I talk a lot. So it's not the end of the world. But I had no idea what was going on. And I just thought that I had bombed it. It was horrible, all these things.
\n\nAnd the next day, I got an email, and it was three introductions to amazing opportunities. And two of them actually panned out. We didn't end up going with that fund. But I just thought it was hilarious that I was convinced that I shouldn't be doing this, and it was the opposite. So you never know. That's the other thing I learned is you literally can never know what's going to come of any particular meeting in the VC fundraising world.
\n\nCHAD: So how long did it take you from the point that you decided you were going to do this and you were going to start trying to fundraise to actually getting the investment in the bank?
\n\nBENJIE: Probably four to six months. We obviously had some opportunities, but as we went through this process, realizing that having the right partner for the next 7 to 10 years was really important. And we ended up with our lead. I can't believe I'm talking positively about a VC on a podcast but whatever.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nBENJIE: Our lead, Owen Davis from Contour Venture...Contour is like this New York fund that they do everything, but no one knows their name. Oh, he's going to love that I said that but whatever.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nBENJIE: They're great. He's great. And he's the dream investor for us to lead. And then we have other...and I'll mention Shruti over at Array and the folks at Heavybit and Work-Bench as well. They're all in this round, and it all came together. And I was a little picky. So we kind of took our time. And I suggest that if you have that luxury, which we did because we already had a successful consulting business, make sure you know who you're getting into business with for sure. And we got very lucky with that.
\n\nCHAD: So how much time while you were fundraising did you personally work on that as opposed to other things for the product or the business?
\n\nBENJIE: I should have probably put a little bit more time to the fundraising. To be honest with you, I would say I probably put 50% to 60% of my energy into the fundraise, and then the 40% was all building product. As an engineer, you have a really frustrating call, or you think you're doing well, and then you're not, or vice versa. So for me, I would retreat into building. And so I probably retreated into building a little more than I should have to be frank, [laughs] but it worked out in the end.
\n\nCHAD: While you were doing that, you supported yourselves from the consulting revenue.
\n\nBENJIE: Yeah, for the most part. We still had active clients. So we converted most of those...actually all of those into Shipyard customers. And they were very supportive in that process, by the way, doing due diligence calls for us. They were all very helpful.
\n\nCHAD: And how did you decide how much money you should be seeking to raise?
\n\nBENJIE: Ultimately, that was something I struggle with just because I really want to know what I'm going to do and what the plan is. And one of the lessons that I've learned as a CEO now is your job is basically to make unbelievably important, critical decisions with little to no data and just hope you're making the right one and then adjust quickly if you're not. So understanding when you've made the wrong decision.
\n\nBut ultimately, to answer your question, I built out a spreadsheet. I had a wish list of engineers that I knew or positions that we needed to fill, probably underestimated some of the product marketing needs that we would need to do. But built out a model and then figured, hey, how can we get there in 18 to 24 months to get to the next round?
\n\nBecause you really do have to be making sure that you can...I mentioned the hamster wheel early on; maybe that's too negative of an analogy there. But you have to be thinking about your next round. And so you have to get to what metrics you want to hit. And you just work backwards from there.
\n\nCHAD: At what point along the way...you mentioned earlier that your customers tend to be larger companies. At what point along the way did you discover who your ideal customers were?
\n\nBENJIE: I think we're still discovering that. We're still figuring that out. But for me, this tool Shipyard, and I've seen it, if you start using a tool like Shipyard from day one, the gains and the benefits are just insane. We had one company that started off from scratch with us. And within two months, they had extremely robust software development lifecycle, production deploys, all kinds of stuff. And they've been going now for years...not years but a year a half or so with us and super successful.
\n\nSo I always wanted to be like, oh, startup X with two engineers you should use us. And the more we talk to them, the more conversations we had. We're just like, this is not a DevOps priority. DevOps is not the priority.
\n\nCHAD: Especially in those early days, I feel like there's such a tendency, especially from engineers, to say, "Oh, that's not that complicated. I can do that," or "We don't really need that. Let's piece together this."
\n\nBENJIE: Yeah, that's exactly right. So then, as we started to talk more and more and understand what people were doing, we just fell into this ICP or Initial Customer Profile of more complex teams that are really facing these problems. I mean, specifically, when you get to a certain size, a bad release costs you a lot of money, customer success, customers that are leaving you, frustrated sales execs, frustrated product people, frustrated QA people. So it's when you get to these more complex levels is when you need this type of tooling.
\n\nNow, one thing Shipyard released actually very, very quietly, but you know, it's released. We released a 30-day free trial. It's kind of like our light tier, so people can start doing it. And we're starting to see some people at the earlier stage companies starting to do this, which is exciting to us. But our goal as a company is absolutely to figure out how to get this to the masses because ephemeral environments is the paradigm of the future. I mean, it's the paradigm of the present with the big tech companies. And it's now coming down to the rest of us.
\n\nAnd so instead of having to hire five DevOps people to build the system out for you for six months, you hire one DevOps person, and that DevOps person shifts into an SRE role, not entirely, but their concerns are more about reliability of the actual site rather than reliability for developer environments or QA environments or staging environments. So we think that's really powerful.
\n\nOne thing that I probably should have mentioned way sooner is we have a community site that we've donated, and we're more than happy to have some pull requests come in. We've had a few. ephemeralenvironments.io, yeah, I don't know how to spell ephemeral either, but you can Google it. It will come up.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nBENJIE: ephemeralenvironments.io, and it goes through the different use cases of ephemeral environments and where there's value there. So that's kind of the goal with all this.
\n\nCHAD: So what are you working on now? And what is the next stage for the company, I guess also from a product perspective? But also, you mentioned that hamster wheel. [laughter] You're coming up on 18 months of being on that wheel, right?
\n\nBENJIE: We are. One thing is we've had some success, so our revenue is pretty solid, but no rest for the weary. But we're probably going to go out and bring in some more capital pretty soon. And the reason for that, because that's always the important thing to me, is that we have some pretty spectacular design partners, some pretty big logos, all these things.
\n\nThe product is there. The product is killing it. I couldn't be more proud of the product and the team. We've also started to build out the core team and couldn't be more proud of that. And so now we need to accelerate and figure out our next steps and how to bring this to the masses.
\n\nAnd ultimately, the vision of Shipyard is to make all this stuff move a lot faster, bring velocity to teams, and all that stuff. And we believe that ephemeral environments are a huge component of that. So we're probably in the next few months going to probably go out and look at our financing options. I will say that the market has been a little insane. So I feel like all the education that I got in 2022 is probably out the window because some of these valuations and other stuff seems like it's a frothy market, as they say, but we'll be doing that.
\n\nAnd we're really going to probably double down on figuring out what the community needs and where the value is for the community, so both with ephemeralenvironments.io. But also, there are some really cool internal tools that we've built that solve some of the issues within the Kubernetes ecosystem. Okay, that's a strong word. They help a lot. I'm never going to say I've solved anything in Kubernetes.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nBENJIE: But they help a lot with understanding why the state of your application is maybe not where you want it to be. And so, we'd like to probably contribute a bit more back to CNCF, in particular, but open source in general. So continue to build the team to work on that. And then, obviously, pushing forward with product and some pretty cool stuff we have on the roadmap that we're really excited about.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. Well, I wish you all the best with that. If folks want to find out more about Shipyard, follow along with you, get in touch; where are the best places for them to do that?
\n\nBENJIE: Really, shipyard.build is our website. And that is probably the best place to try it and also to contact us. Our Twitter is @shipyardbuild twitter.com/shipyardbuild. Personally, I'm not a fan of Twitter. So I personally don't use Twitter, but we do as a company. And I think that our Twitter and our website are probably the best things to reach out to, and obviously, sales@shipyard.build you can send an email there. But I think you'll probably find the information you're looking for on the website. And if not, please let us know what's missing.
\n\nCHAD: And you mentioned the free trial. So I feel like that's a great thing for people who want to get more into the product; they can give it a try, right?
\n\nBENJIE: Yeah. And one thing to note about the free trial the reason that it's kind of cool is it's your own cluster. You get your own cluster. It's completely single tenant. It's pretty dope. It's pretty cool. And you can really take it for a spin. I would suggest, I mean, we've had a lot of success with companies that are using Docker Compose already to just dive in there and get their application running.
\n\nBut I would say that we have some pretty cool starter apps as well. They're linked in our docs and our GitHub. Just seeing the power of this through our starter applications has also been a great experience for a lot of people. So I'd suggest taking a look at that.
\n\nOh, and I should plug a podcast that I'm a co-host of, Kubelist. I do that with Marc Campbell from Replicated, where we interview CNCF open-source projects all the time. That's why I got to be careful pretending like I'm solving anything. There are a lot of options in the Kubernetes landscape.
\n\nCHAD: Wonderful. You can subscribe to the show and find notes and a full transcript of this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
\n\nANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Benjie De Groot.
","summary":"Chad talks to Benjie De Groot, co-founder, and CEO of Shipyard. Shipyard manages, creates, builds, and deploys ephemeral environments.\r\n\r\nBenjie talks about how Shipyard became a funded company, discovering who their ideal customers are, and building out the core team so Shipyard can accelerate and figure out their next steps in how to bring it to the masses. ","date_published":"2022-01-27T00:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/d9c6eca4-af9d-4e89-903e-716b515f6267.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":43074653,"duration_in_seconds":2336}]},{"id":"2d905d11-039a-4bb4-82d7-4eb78156754f","title":"Assessment and Performance Metrics with Tiffany Shubert of Relias Healthcare","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/407","content_text":"Chad talks to Tiffany Shubert, Senior Product Manager at Relias Healthcare. Relias is an online healthcare education company. They develop and create education and clinical content for anything from physicians to nurses, physical therapists, to in-home care aides in multiple healthcare settings. They span the entire range from acute care hospital settings to in-home care to hospice. \n\nTiffany talks about how her clinical skills apply really well to product management, defining who you're solving the problem for, being all about your end-user, and making sure they have an amazing experience with your product. \n\n\nRelias Healthcare\nFollow Tiffany on LinkedIn. \nFollow Relias on Twitter or LinkedIn.\nFollow thoughtbot on Twitter, or LinkedIn.\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Tiffany Shubert, Senior Product Manager at Relias. Tiffany, thanks for joining me. \n\nTIFFANY: Hey. Thanks so much, Chad. I'm really excited to be here. \n\nCHAD: So, Tiffany, folks may not be familiar with what Relias is, although if you're in certain spaces, it's certainly a big name that you may have heard of. So why don't you start off by telling people a little bit about Relias?\n\nTIFFANY: Sure. So Relias is an online healthcare education company. Relias is in many, many different settings. But the majority of what we do is we develop and create education and clinical content for anything from physicians to nurses, physical therapists, to in-home care aides. And we are in multiple healthcare settings. So we span the entire range from acute care hospital settings to in-home care to hospice.\n\nCHAD: We do a lot of work with different clients in the healthcare space. And so many of them, without even me prompting, mention, \"Oh, we use Relias.\" [chuckles] And it's remarkable to see. Is Relias the biggest provider of learning management software for the space?\n\nTIFFANY: So, we are the biggest provider of compliance training in the skilled nursing space. And we are a big provider in all of the other spaces. And really, where Relias started was in this notion of compliance training which, for those who are not familiar, really could benefit from a lot of design. That is the kind of training that every single healthcare provider has to take in order to see a patient. So that's where you take your patient privacy training, your bloodborne pathogen training, all of those types of trainings. And that's where Relias really started and has grown from there.\n\nCHAD: So, how long have you been at Relias?\n\nTIFFANY: So I started, interesting, in the end of March 2020. [chuckles] So yeah, it has been my pandemic experience, so almost two years now. \n\nCHAD: What brought you to Relias?\n\nTIFFANY: So I was at an interesting juncture in my career. I'm a physical therapist by training, and I was in clinical practice for about 15 years. And I transitioned over actually through a very interesting pathway but working for some different startups that were creating different technologies around healthcare. And one of the startups I had been with had run the course. And I was looking for something more around education, which is my original passion. And when Relias actually found me, I didn't realize it was actually in my backyard. \n\nCHAD: [laughs]\n\nTIFFANY: What drew me to it was this ability at this space where we could be looking at education, especially for clinicians, not as what I would call a penance which is how it's looked at. Like, ugh, I have to take my online education, or I have to take my training. But more of a hey, how can we make education interesting and dynamic? And how can we really apply many of the concepts we know about design and about really developing excellent products to clinical education? Which was incredibly exciting to me.\n\nCHAD: As you moved from someone practicing to product management in this space, did you do any formal learning or training in that, or did you just learn along the way?\n\nTIFFANY: A combination. Really my original experience in product was working for a startup company that was developing a really innovative concept around creating a soft, light exoskeleton, and they needed a clinician on staff to really understand how bodies move and what kind of problems could be solved. \n\nThat position really evolved into being a director of user experience. And so that really entailed bringing our end users, who happened to be older adults, into the lab and having them really work side by side with the engineers who are creating the product. So I developed that whole program, validated it, expanded it. \n\nAnd from there, I really realized, oh, my clinical skills actually apply really well to product management. But now I do need to get some more formal training. So I went through some of the different...I actually went through the CSPO certification program, and then I have also just continued doing some more formal training at Relias.\n\nCHAD: I imagine that the industry itself experience being almost on the user side helps. But is it ever a hurdle that you need to overcome?\n\nTIFFANY: I think when clinicians first get into industry, they make a lot of mistakes because they want to solve every single problem. Or they want to give their users every single opportunity or every single feature. \n\nSo, for example, if you sit down with a group of physical therapists, and if you say, \"I'm going to build you an app for helping your patients with their home exercise program,\" every single physical therapist is going to give you a laundry list of 30 things that they want. And typically, where clinicians go in my role is they're like, \"Okay, we're going to fix all 30 things.\" And really, it's that ability to narrow it down, narrow it down. \n\nAnd to be honest, if you're a good clinician, it's the same thing. Patients usually come with multiple complaints, and you've got to figure out what that number one complaint is and what you can do to address it. So that's where I think it becomes a barrier is wanting to fix every single problem as opposed to being able to really winnow it down. But when you can winnow it down, it's very powerful.\n\nCHAD: An extension of that that I've seen, which I think is one of the challenges in healthcare, is that there are a lot of edge cases. And in normal SaaS products like an e-commerce product or whatever, it's easier to say, \"We're not going to solve that right now.\" \n\nBut in healthcare, every edge case is an actual person that you could be helping. And so it's a little bit harder to really get in the mindset of not solving every problem. Because especially if the space of healthcare that you're in is literally life and death, it can be difficult from a product perspective to say, \"We're not going to solve that case.\"\n\nTIFFANY: I completely agree. Those are just conversations that you have to have because you also have to look at if we spend all of this time solving all of these use cases or all of these edge cases, we're never going to have a product. \n\nSo then you got to pull back, and you got to go, what is going to have the biggest impact? Or what are the components across every single patient that we can address? Because there's always going to be some commonalities, not necessarily disease space, but in how we actually address that patient and manage that disease or manage that impairment. \n\nIt is a big trap that we fall into because you're right; healthcare provider training is you have to address everything. But the fact of the matter is that's not realistic.\n\nCHAD: What are some other challenges that you encounter while creating products in the healthcare space?\n\nTIFFANY: I think the biggest challenge is really defining who you're solving the problem for, and we run into this all the time. And this has become very clear to me lately that if you're working for a Facebook or a Google, you are all about your end-user. And it's all about making sure that that end-user has an amazing experience. \n\nBut in healthcare, you've got patients, you've got clinicians, you've got hospitals, you've got healthcare systems. You've got private insurance payers, and you've got Medicare. And all of those groups may be interacting with your product. And all of those groups have totally different use cases and totally different problems to solve. \n\nSo first of all, figuring out, like, who am I building this for? Who is going to pay for it? And where do those two things intersect? And that has been the biggest problem I have seen in innovation in this space over the last ten years has been, well, we're going to build this for the patient, and it's going to be amazing, and the insurance companies will just pay for it. That hasn't really panned out because nobody sat down and actually talked to the insurance companies and asked them what problems do they see happening that a product could solve? \n\nAnd then the flip has happened too where they've gone to the insurance companies, and insurance companies have said, \"Well, here are the problems,\" but then they've never talked to the patients. So it's getting that multifaceted perspective and then boiling it down to what truly is the problem we're going to solve?\n\nCHAD: And the way I see it is that this problem is amped up in the healthcare space because there are so many stakeholders or people you're potentially building the product for. But it's a general problem too in enterprise software where basically the people making the buying decision are not the users necessarily or the people you're trying to help. \n\nAnd any time where that's the case, you also run the risk of very difficult to build a good product because the people making the buying decisions aren't actually the ones who are going to be using it or don't have the same needs as the people that you're trying to help with the software.\n\nTIFFANY: Exactly, exactly. So it takes a lot of time to sort all that out, and we rarely have that amount of time. I'd say one of the things that was so fascinating on the product that Relias and thoughtbot worked on was we had the time to go a little deeper and to really figure out...so the problem we were trying to solve is okay, we need a better tool. Physical therapists need a better tool to engage patients, specifically older adult patients. \n\nAnd again, so we had the conversation with the clinicians, and they're like, \"Oh, well, we want all of these exercises.\" But then we paused, and we said, \"But really, what is your biggest clinical challenge?\" And they all said, \"Time. We don't have enough time.\" \n\nSo then we were able to pull back and not go, oh, this is not about making the best exercise program ever. This is about creating a product that actually solves the problem of time. If we can enhance efficiency, then clinicians will use it. They'll be happy with it, and we can take it from there.\n\nSolving the problem of time is a totally different problem than we have to create a product that offers you 30,000 different exercises. It was just a really important lesson because then once we said time, then all of a sudden, we had clinician buy-in. \n\nAnd then we also had an organization buy-in because the organization is going, \"Absolutely. If you can save my clinicians 10 minutes, that's going to increase their productivity. That's going to give them more time with the patient. Or maybe we could even get so efficient that there are more opportunities to see more patients.\" So it's tricky to figure all that out.\n\nCHAD: So how did we figure that out? What tools did we use to have those conversations with people?\n\nTIFFANY: Yeah, there was a lot of really excellent discovery and meeting with a good variety of clinicians but all practicing in the same space. And that's one of the things I want to call out. When you look at healthcare, healthcare spans so many different settings. And there are not a lot of consistency or universal truths between settings. \n\nAnd what I mean is someone who is seeing a patient in a home health setting is going to have a very different skill set than someone who is working with a professional sports team, same training, same title, totally different set of problems. So we were really, really clear that we had to really refine this problem and get a very specific type of therapist. \n\nAnd we also wanted to get a specific...I'm going to just use home health just for an example. But okay, so let's make sure we get therapists who are working in rural settings, in-home health, and therapists who are working in urban settings in-home health because we wanted to make sure that we had a better understanding of the problems they were facing in these multiple settings.\n\nFrom there, from that discovery, got really, really, really very strict on what consistencies we were seeing around the problems that the therapists were running into. And from there, we just really focused on what was going to give us the most bang for our buck. And the problem of time was super consistent. The questions really were not like, well, would an app save you time? The questions were really what are your biggest challenges right now?\n\nCHAD: And did you do that in one on one interviews with them? \n\nTIFFANY: Yeah, those were one on one interviews. Yes. Yeah.\n\nCHAD: How do you, when you're doing it, collect the data from those interviews in a way that is conducive to analysis later on?\n\nTIFFANY: So I've used a whole variety of tools. And we were very analog in this particular one. We were interviewing one person, but there were about four of us on the call, and everyone was taking notes. And then everybody was highlighting common themes. And I've used focus group analysis software as well, which is always really, really helpful. But in this particular, we were really just going analog, and it worked pretty well.\n\nCHAD: And you were doing this without a prototype or anything like that yet, right?\n\nTIFFANY: Correct, for the initial without a prototype. Yep.\n\nCHAD: And so once you had that potential job to be done or value proposition, how did you go from that job to be done to a potential product?\n\nTIFFANY: So from there, we did go ahead, and we prototyped, and we prototyped a workflow that seemed to make sense given what we had heard from our users and then also just with my clinical background. And then that prototype really was the trick because a lot of times in healthcare, when you are working with clinicians, some are tech-savvy, but there's a significant amount (And this isn't age-dependent, but this is younger and older.) that are not. \n\nAnd so they really need a little bit of context to ground what their thoughts are and how they think you can solve them. So by getting that prototype in place and by letting the therapist really bounce around in there and see what was intuitive and what wasn't, that was the game-changer. And we could really see okay, here's our understanding of this. And whoops! Missed that one. [laughter] Oh, this all makes sense. \n\nBut you could see as therapists went through what they appreciated was that the user interface was super simple, super clean. They could easily find things. And even those who didn't have a lot of self-efficacy around technology really felt at the end of a 20-minute session I know how to use this, and I could see how this will save me time. All of that data really helped us understand we were going down the right path.\n\nIt was a little unsettling because when we looked at other products in the market, they would basically say, \"We literally have 6,000 exercises that therapists can use.\" Well, we were really saying, \"We're going to give you about 400. But the reason why is because it's a lot quicker to review 400 exercises and identify what you want as opposed to 6,000.\" And by and large, what we were hearing was that \"Oh, well, when I use those apps that have 6,000 exercises, I just get overwhelmed, and it takes too long.\"\n\nCHAD: But that can be a little scary, too, because if you're in that situation where you know that the person making the buying decision is just going to look and say, \"Oh, this one has more exercises.\" [laughs]\n\nTIFFANY: Yep, yep, yep. Yeah. \n\nCHAD: Actually, at this point, let's take a little bit of a tangent because you're doing this within an existing company, Relias. Relias isn't necessarily a small company. So what kind of reporting out or management of other stakeholders or the business did you need to do along the way?\n\nTIFFANY: That's a great question. And Relias is a big company, but also, this was a very new space for Relias. So they had never looked outward at a patient engagement tool. The focus had always been education for clinicians. So this was a very new space for them. \n\nAnd actually, the most important and early conversations really were with our legal team and our cybersecurity team. And that was because we were going to be creating a database for patients. Again, new space, and we really needed to de-risk as early as possible, make sure that we could actually build this thing, keep it safe, that the budget was going to align. Also, that information really restricted the kind of information that we can actually keep about patients. So having that on the front end saved us so much time later on. That was number one. \n\nAnd I would say anybody who's looking in the healthcare space absolutely has to start there because, again, the rules are changing constantly. And as clinicians, we are trained on how to take care of patients. We are trained to maintain patient privacy. We typically don't have a whole bunch of experience on cybersecurity and how you actually keep an online system secure. So you need to make sure you're talking to the right stakeholders to get the right information. So that was critical.\n\nCHAD: Some organizations have an executive sponsor on the team or embedded in the team so that there are direct status updates and awareness of new product development. Is that the track that Relias took, or was it something else?\n\nTIFFANY: That was absolutely the track that we took, so we did have an executive sponsor who we reported out to each week gave updates to. And he was able to communicate out to leadership as well. And we also had lots of opportunities internally to give updates and to do demos. So people could understand what we were doing; why we were making the decisions we were making to make sure everything aligned appropriately.\n\nCHAD: I'm a big believer in demos and that kind of thing to communicate. I think we all have been in situations where when you're working on a complex problem, even if you do all your research and answer every question in the most perfect way and all that stuff, if at the end of that process it’s the first time anyone's hearing about all the results of that, there's going to be so many questions about did you consider this? Did you consider that? \n\nAnd I think we all know that if instead we communicate things along the way and keep people up to speed, there's much more understanding but also trust in the process.\n\nTIFFANY: Yeah, absolutely. And I have also experienced what you're describing. And what I have found is it's really like the weekly demo can be really quick, super helpful, and then documentation, documentation, documentation. We've created FAQ pages because of exactly what you're saying. \n\nBecause a lot of times, something isn't intuitive to a stakeholder, and maybe you've answered that question three or four times. So you've got to have it written down somewhere so that everybody's on the same page and understands. And even if they've missed seven meetings, if they come and have that question, hey, just so you know, we made that decision three weeks ago. This is why. This is the justification. This is why we're moving forward.\n\nCHAD: Yeah. Is there any other sort of techniques that you employ to try to keep people up to date or strike that balance there?\n\nTIFFANY: The main one, I think, is the weekly report out. And it is a challenge, and especially with things being virtual, of course, it's even more of a challenge because I think it's really easy to get insular but being consistent and being timely. \n\nSo if everybody knows okay, I'm going to go to this meeting on Monday morning at 10:00 o'clock, it's going to be 15 minutes, and I'm going to know exactly what's happening, all of a sudden, that organization piece is so key. Keeping it short is really key, and then everybody's on the same page. And you don't end up with that; hey, wait a minute, I didn't hear about that. Or why is that happening? Because that takes so much time to manage.\n\nCHAD: We worked with one team several years ago, actually, but I realize that it might even be more relevant now. And I don't necessarily recommend this for every team. I think each team needs to find their own techniques that work well for their culture. \n\nBut this team, rather than having meetings actually had...they had occasional meetings, but they actually had a team blog, internal, completely internal. And they essentially wrote a blog together that everyone who wanted to follow along was able to follow along with.\n\nTIFFANY: I think that's a great idea. I think in bigger companies, sometimes that gets lost. [laughs]\n\nCHAD: Yeah, it definitely worked for this organization's culture and who was following along, but it wouldn't work for everybody.\n\nTIFFANY: Absolutely. One other thing that I need to call out that I didn't was with some of the formative user interviews, we had to push on this, but we did try to get at least one member of engineering coming to some of those or at least getting some highlights. And this may seem like, of course, you would do that. But when you're working in a fairly large company that's entering into new space, there are new ways to be engaging your engineering team that are different and may not seem valuable at the time. \n\nSo we rallied pretty hard to get some folks in there so that they could really understand the problem that they were going to be contributing to solving. And that was critical because the assumptions about if you're building an app for an older adult versus the realities are so radically different that you can only really understand it if you visually see it or hearing from your user.\n\nMid-roll Ad\n\nI wanted to tell you all about something I've been working on quietly for the past year or so, and that's AgencyU. AgencyU is a membership-based program where I work one-on-one with a small group of agency founders and leaders toward their business goals. \n\nWe do one-on-one coaching sessions and also monthly group meetings. We start with goal setting, advice, and problem-solving based on my experiences over the last 18 years of running thoughtbot. As we progress as a group, we all get to know each other more. And many of the AgencyU members are now working on client projects together and even referring work to each other. \n\nWhether you're struggling to grow an agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in my 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot, I've seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and I'd be happy to work with you. Learn more and sign up today at thoughtbot.com/agencyu. That's A-G-E-N-C-Y, the letter U.\n\nCHAD: Okay, so let's pop the stack now and go back to where we were before we took that tangent into that side of internal communication and management. So you had the prototype and were starting to show it to potential users and were getting positive feedback. What were the next steps after that?\n\nTIFFANY: So the next steps for us were running through...and to be clear, we actually were creating two apps, which I never actually said, one for the clinician, [laughter] which the problem was to solve time, and one was for the older adult. \n\nAnd I've had a ton of experience actually designing for older adults. So some people may think that that might have been the harder app. But there are some really straightforward design tenets that work when you're designing for somebody who's 60,70, 80, 90, 100-plus. \n\nSo starting out on the clinician side, got our prototype, went through, validated it with about seven clinicians, identified some areas of confusion, identified some areas that we thought were totally intuitive and were completely not.\n\nSo my favorite was we wanted a way for clinicians to identify the patients that they were going to see that day, and so we just thought that if they favorited the patients, if they just clicked a star, and they'll show up. And we had seven out of seven clinicians say, \"Does that mean that they're actually my favorite patient? [laughter] Like, no. Okay, missed the boat on that one; regroup. \n\nWe went through about three prototype revisions before we got to the point where we were really happy with the workflow and felt like it was intuitive. So that was the first thing. \n\nAnd then the second thing was on the patient-facing side. And for that one, it's a totally different workflow because it's just one human who's being given exercises. So it really was, okay, how do they access the exercises? How did they experience the exercises? And what makes sense? \n\nAnd so we had a lot of questions because we were trying to figure out, do we want written text? Do we want animations? Do we want animations with audio? So we had a really robust user group that we were able...we had about ten that we were able to actually demo, and they could give us direct feedback on. \n\nAnd then we had a user group of about 30 people that we actually just started sending prototypes and surveys to get some better feedback. And what we found is when we did more of the email, we would send them an audio clip of an animation. And we did some really lovely A/B testing that way. And we got much better results. \n\nBecause generally speaking, when you interview an older adult about something you are creating for them, they're super positive, even about the stuff they don't like. So it was a lot easier to get more robust, more real feedback by removing the human element and saying, \"Hey, tell us how you really feel.\" We got some amazing feedback that way.\n\nCHAD: That's interesting. And just in terms of timeline, was this happening pre-pandemic or post-pandemic? \n\nTIFFANY: This was post-pandemic. Well, we really started doing this design work in the summer of 2020, so right in the middle of the pandemic, yes.\n\nCHAD: Right. And so when you talk about these interviews and all that kind of stuff, everything was remote.\n\nTIFFANY: Yeah, everything was remote, worked fantastic. That has been one of the cool things about being in this space, especially in design space, technology design, and aging, is that the acceleration of the technology adoption that happened in 2020 was mind-blowing. \n\nI started working with design with older adults in 2014, building them different types of applications. And it just was incredible the level of comfort that I saw in 2020 amongst a much broader audience compared to 2014, 2015.\n\nCHAD: Yeah, we've definitely seen that as well across different products. And the underlying reason is bad, but it certainly makes what we're doing a lot easier to have more people comfortable, even with little things like being on a Zoom call and knowing how to share their screen. Little things like that would sometimes be a big hang-up for getting good interviews and good feedback with people.\n\nTIFFANY: Absolutely, absolutely, and doing some relatively complex things. Like, we were trying to validate doing a two-factor authentication, and we were able to do it virtually. So it's really giving us some really neat tools to reach a broad audience.\n\nCHAD: A little while ago, you called out that there are patterns for building applications for certain ages. Can you tell me more about that?\n\nTIFFANY: Sure. There's actually been a lot of research done in this area. I've contributed a little bit to it. [laughter] So what we really found especially early on...and I was involved with a project to take the connect technology and the Microsoft Connect technology and modify it to deliver a fall prevention program to older adults. \n\nSo in my previous life as a physical therapist, I have a Ph.D. in human movement and did a lot of research in healthy aging and injury prevention. And older adult falls is a fairly significant public health issue. And there are a lot of cool things you can do to address it around exercise. But the problem is scale. So how do you actually bring some of these exercises to older adults at scale as opposed to one on one? So that's the context behind this. \n\nAnd so we started working with Microsoft SDK, building this out. And what we quickly realized is that the things that tend to make, let's say, a video game really cool and engaging are actually the worst things you can put into design if you're introducing an older adult or someone who's not comfortable with technology into a game. So you need a very simple interface, to begin with. And you need very straightforward commands. \n\nAnd so it's funny because, in 2013, 2014 the people that were in this space all came from the gaming world. So they'd make these really beautiful backgrounds and things jumping and popping out. And you would lose your user within two minutes because it was just so visually overwhelming. \n\nAnd one of the things that's interesting is as we get older, our brains are just not as flexible. They're super smart, but they get easily distracted. So what we learned is if you keep your user interface super simple, and then you make your early experiences very positive, so you keep the tasks very straightforward, you show success, what happens is your user gets a ton of self-efficacy. And they start to really realize that they know exactly what they're doing because they do. And then you can start doing some more interesting things. \n\nSo what we found is with our technology, as we got our users, okay, they're using it three times, they're using it four times. They're being super consistent doing this exercise program. Let's make it more visually engaging then they could actually handle it because they weren't so worried about what do I do next to go forward in the exercise program? \n\nSo yeah, so when you think about design, that was a really long-winded answer, sorry.\n\nCHAD: [laughs] It's okay.\n\nTIFFANY: But you want to keep things super simple and straightforward. You do need to infuse it with compassion and empathy, and if you can do small successes, really, really helpful. The other thing that is incredibly helpful, and this is going to sound a little hokey, is that any kind of avatar or chatbot who's super positive really, really can have a big impact. \n\nBecause a lot of times, older adults are by themselves trying to navigate this thing, and they have no idea what's going on. And if a chatbot pops up and says, \"Hey, you're at this stage, do you need any help?\" Or \"Hey, you pushed the red button, good job.\" There's this very interesting relationship that gets built with older adults and chatbots and avatars. They engage with them much more. \n\nAnd I think ultimately what I saw because we were using an avatar to lead through exercises is that self-efficacy increased because even though the avatar was leading them through the exercises, they ultimately knew it was them. Compared to if I was leading them through the exercises, there's always that yeah, I did it, but Tiffany taught me how. Whereas this is well, I did it, and the avatar taught me how, which really means that I actually did it. So I can actually do it. It's a really cool space.\n\nCHAD: In validating the exercise format through those surveys and that kind of thing, what did you learn in terms of the format? Was animated ones winning out?\n\nTIFFANY: Absolutely. What we learned was animation, hands down 100%. We also learned that animation plus narration really was the winning ticket. What we had tested we did some A/B testing where we did animation plus narration, and we had the exercise instructions written with the assumption that, well, some people are visual, and some people are auditory, and some people want to read the exercises. And we compared that to just animation plus narration and no written instructions. And the feedback we got was that it was too much. \n\nLike, you're reading the instructions, you're watching, and you're listening, and it just was confusing and overwhelming. And sometimes it wasn't an exact match because when you're narrating an exercise versus reading about it, the words aren't always exactly the same because sometimes it just doesn't make sense to make them the same. But when you just had the narration with the exercise, people were really happy. They could see it, they could hear it, they could replay it. \n\nAnd the other thing that was really nice about that particular format is it also gave a little bit of space. And this is on a mobile device, so when I say little space, I do mean little space where if the therapist had any specific cues, they could input it in there. So then now the patient's got...they can see the exercises, they can hear how to do it. \"Oh yeah, and my therapist said, 'Make sure I put all my weight on my left leg.”’ So that just seemed to be the right package as opposed to dumping all of this information on the user.\n\nCHAD: One of the things, when I've worked with people or organizations before that can become a bit of a blocker, is identifying something like this. Oh, animations with narration that's what this should be and then needing to produce all of that in order to bring the product to market to create it all from scratch. Was this material that you already had at your disposal? Or was it going to need to be created?\n\nTIFFANY: It was going to need to be created. And the way we addressed that issue is we looked at, for lack of a better word, what are those key bread and butter exercises that just about every therapist prescribes to just about every person? I mean, it still was a sizable lift, but again, it wasn't an overwhelmingly huge production. \n\nSo we went ahead and said, okay, table stakes. We've got to have these in because if you don't, then it's not really usable. And of all of these, which are the ones which are generic enough that if we built it once, a therapist could put in additional instructions to do any kind of modifications? So that was really how we addressed that. \n\nI would say if somebody is starting completely from scratch, pick a total of 10 exercises or a total of 10 things and just pilot that and just try to do low-fidelity prototypes and just validate it before going down the path.\n\nCHAD: So in the story here, we're moving towards actually building something. Was there a go/no go point in the product's life cycle where you needed to get sign-off on something in order to decide to actually bring this product to market? \n\nTIFFANY: Yes. And interestingly, we are in that point at this exact moment in time. [laughter] So we're at the point where it's released in alpha. We're getting some really great feedback. And on the clinician side, we're back to the original challenge around building something for patients. \n\nWe are still actually putting finishing touches on making sure that we can really secure this database the way it needs to be secured in 2022 because things, again, are moving pretty rapidly. So we are waiting for our go decision as we speak.\n\nCHAD: But we did build something.\n\nTIFFANY: Yes. \n\nCHAD: So you didn't need to get full sign-off and go/no go before going from prototype to starting to build something.\n\nTIFFANY: Correct. Yes, yeah. Yes, sorry. \n\nCHAD: No, it's okay.\n\nTIFFANY: We had, like I said, we were really good communicating out. We had all the data to support the decisions that we made. We felt like we had a couple of very minor outstanding things that we knew that needed to still be addressed. But we also felt we were at that point where we could go ahead and build. And once we got in people's hands, we probably have much better data on how to address the outstanding items.\n\nCHAD: So given that you're at the point of you've gotten some things in people's hands, you're now making sure that this can be a product that you fully bring to market. What are some of the factors that are being looked at? And you mentioned security is one. What are some of the others?\n\nTIFFANY: Some of the others...I will say one of the things that is not a factor but was a factor early on is, hey, wait a minute, can older adults really use this? Are they really going to want to use this? That's a slam dunk. Yes, they can use it, and yes, they really want to use it. Plenty of data there. \n\nSo one of the factors that's...believe it or not, the pandemic is actually throwing us a little bit of a curveball in the sense of there is so much transition happening in healthcare right now that we're having a couple of little challenges around...some of our clients are actually changing their settings. \n\nSo our first target market is people who are in home health. Well, if all of a sudden you are going from skilled nursing and opening up home health, there are a lot of factors you've got to balance. So that's been a little bit of a curveball. And it's also been a curveball in finding our early adopters to really go ahead and test it out. \n\nAnd then the final thing that is a big challenge, and I think it's a challenge for everybody, is integration with pre-existing systems because there's so much variability and variety of EMR systems. I'll give you a great example. You could have a skilled nursing facility that has one EMR system, and that skilled nursing facility could contract with a rehab therapy company who uses a different system, but they're both seeing the same patient.\n\nWe want to be super strategic about...because, again, that's a huge resource suck of looking at those API integrations. That's one of the things that we're really doing a deeper dive into now to really figure out where do we actually put these resources? What's going to give us the most bang for our buck? And knowing that the target is moving constantly.\n\nCHAD: What do you do while your...one of the challenges can be like, oh, we've got a team ready to build the product. Are you in a holding pattern now? Or what do you do? How do you manage that?\n\nTIFFANY: There are two ways to manage, and one is going back to your product right now and doing more testing, which is always a good thing because you're just refining, refining, refining. It’s tricky, though, because when you've got a lot of limits on resources, especially human resources, lots of projects going on, the tricky part is can I keep my team, or do they need to get repurposed? \n\nAnd I think it's all about having really honest conversations and if they are going to be pulled into another project, making sure everybody's on the same page about what that looks like so that if you are in a holding pattern, when you get off that holding pattern, that there's not a huge delay. Lots of conversations, lots of discussions, yeah\n\nCHAD: Well, I wish you the best in working through all of that and bringing this product to market. I know you've been a tremendous partner in working on this together. I know the team has enjoyed working with you. And we work with a lot of people at different companies, and your experience in navigating this has been notable.\n\nTIFFANY: Thank you. The team was amazing. I mean, it is a really great group of people, really open, at the same time, really able to crystallize some of the challenges in a way that was incredibly effective. So yeah, it was really a fantastic experience, and I'm very grateful for it.\n\nCHAD: So if folks want to follow along with you or get in touch with you, where are the best places for them to do that?\n\nTIFFANY: Either on LinkedIn. I, of course, have a space on LinkedIn but also at Relias. And my email is tshubert@relias.com.\n\nCHAD: Wonderful. You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel. \n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening and see you next time.\n\nAnnouncer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.Special Guest: Tiffany Shubert.Sponsored By:AgencyU: AgencyU is a membership-based program where Chad Pytel works one on one with a small group of Agency founders and leaders toward their business goals. You'll do one-on-one coaching sessions and also monthly group meetings. You'll start with goal setting, advice, and problem solving based on Chad's experiences over the last 18 years of running thoughtbot. As you progress as a group, you all get to know each other more and many of the AgencyU members are now working on client projects together and referring work to each other.\r\n\r\nWhether you’re struggling to grow your agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in his 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot, Chad has seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and would be happy to work with you too.\r\n\r\nLearn more and sign up at thoughtbot.com/agencyu","content_html":"Chad talks to Tiffany Shubert, Senior Product Manager at Relias Healthcare. Relias is an online healthcare education company. They develop and create education and clinical content for anything from physicians to nurses, physical therapists, to in-home care aides in multiple healthcare settings. They span the entire range from acute care hospital settings to in-home care to hospice.
\n\nTiffany talks about how her clinical skills apply really well to product management, defining who you're solving the problem for, being all about your end-user, and making sure they have an amazing experience with your product.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Tiffany Shubert, Senior Product Manager at Relias. Tiffany, thanks for joining me.
\n\nTIFFANY: Hey. Thanks so much, Chad. I'm really excited to be here.
\n\nCHAD: So, Tiffany, folks may not be familiar with what Relias is, although if you're in certain spaces, it's certainly a big name that you may have heard of. So why don't you start off by telling people a little bit about Relias?
\n\nTIFFANY: Sure. So Relias is an online healthcare education company. Relias is in many, many different settings. But the majority of what we do is we develop and create education and clinical content for anything from physicians to nurses, physical therapists, to in-home care aides. And we are in multiple healthcare settings. So we span the entire range from acute care hospital settings to in-home care to hospice.
\n\nCHAD: We do a lot of work with different clients in the healthcare space. And so many of them, without even me prompting, mention, "Oh, we use Relias." [chuckles] And it's remarkable to see. Is Relias the biggest provider of learning management software for the space?
\n\nTIFFANY: So, we are the biggest provider of compliance training in the skilled nursing space. And we are a big provider in all of the other spaces. And really, where Relias started was in this notion of compliance training which, for those who are not familiar, really could benefit from a lot of design. That is the kind of training that every single healthcare provider has to take in order to see a patient. So that's where you take your patient privacy training, your bloodborne pathogen training, all of those types of trainings. And that's where Relias really started and has grown from there.
\n\nCHAD: So, how long have you been at Relias?
\n\nTIFFANY: So I started, interesting, in the end of March 2020. [chuckles] So yeah, it has been my pandemic experience, so almost two years now.
\n\nCHAD: What brought you to Relias?
\n\nTIFFANY: So I was at an interesting juncture in my career. I'm a physical therapist by training, and I was in clinical practice for about 15 years. And I transitioned over actually through a very interesting pathway but working for some different startups that were creating different technologies around healthcare. And one of the startups I had been with had run the course. And I was looking for something more around education, which is my original passion. And when Relias actually found me, I didn't realize it was actually in my backyard.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nTIFFANY: What drew me to it was this ability at this space where we could be looking at education, especially for clinicians, not as what I would call a penance which is how it's looked at. Like, ugh, I have to take my online education, or I have to take my training. But more of a hey, how can we make education interesting and dynamic? And how can we really apply many of the concepts we know about design and about really developing excellent products to clinical education? Which was incredibly exciting to me.
\n\nCHAD: As you moved from someone practicing to product management in this space, did you do any formal learning or training in that, or did you just learn along the way?
\n\nTIFFANY: A combination. Really my original experience in product was working for a startup company that was developing a really innovative concept around creating a soft, light exoskeleton, and they needed a clinician on staff to really understand how bodies move and what kind of problems could be solved.
\n\nThat position really evolved into being a director of user experience. And so that really entailed bringing our end users, who happened to be older adults, into the lab and having them really work side by side with the engineers who are creating the product. So I developed that whole program, validated it, expanded it.
\n\nAnd from there, I really realized, oh, my clinical skills actually apply really well to product management. But now I do need to get some more formal training. So I went through some of the different...I actually went through the CSPO certification program, and then I have also just continued doing some more formal training at Relias.
\n\nCHAD: I imagine that the industry itself experience being almost on the user side helps. But is it ever a hurdle that you need to overcome?
\n\nTIFFANY: I think when clinicians first get into industry, they make a lot of mistakes because they want to solve every single problem. Or they want to give their users every single opportunity or every single feature.
\n\nSo, for example, if you sit down with a group of physical therapists, and if you say, "I'm going to build you an app for helping your patients with their home exercise program," every single physical therapist is going to give you a laundry list of 30 things that they want. And typically, where clinicians go in my role is they're like, "Okay, we're going to fix all 30 things." And really, it's that ability to narrow it down, narrow it down.
\n\nAnd to be honest, if you're a good clinician, it's the same thing. Patients usually come with multiple complaints, and you've got to figure out what that number one complaint is and what you can do to address it. So that's where I think it becomes a barrier is wanting to fix every single problem as opposed to being able to really winnow it down. But when you can winnow it down, it's very powerful.
\n\nCHAD: An extension of that that I've seen, which I think is one of the challenges in healthcare, is that there are a lot of edge cases. And in normal SaaS products like an e-commerce product or whatever, it's easier to say, "We're not going to solve that right now."
\n\nBut in healthcare, every edge case is an actual person that you could be helping. And so it's a little bit harder to really get in the mindset of not solving every problem. Because especially if the space of healthcare that you're in is literally life and death, it can be difficult from a product perspective to say, "We're not going to solve that case."
\n\nTIFFANY: I completely agree. Those are just conversations that you have to have because you also have to look at if we spend all of this time solving all of these use cases or all of these edge cases, we're never going to have a product.
\n\nSo then you got to pull back, and you got to go, what is going to have the biggest impact? Or what are the components across every single patient that we can address? Because there's always going to be some commonalities, not necessarily disease space, but in how we actually address that patient and manage that disease or manage that impairment.
\n\nIt is a big trap that we fall into because you're right; healthcare provider training is you have to address everything. But the fact of the matter is that's not realistic.
\n\nCHAD: What are some other challenges that you encounter while creating products in the healthcare space?
\n\nTIFFANY: I think the biggest challenge is really defining who you're solving the problem for, and we run into this all the time. And this has become very clear to me lately that if you're working for a Facebook or a Google, you are all about your end-user. And it's all about making sure that that end-user has an amazing experience.
\n\nBut in healthcare, you've got patients, you've got clinicians, you've got hospitals, you've got healthcare systems. You've got private insurance payers, and you've got Medicare. And all of those groups may be interacting with your product. And all of those groups have totally different use cases and totally different problems to solve.
\n\nSo first of all, figuring out, like, who am I building this for? Who is going to pay for it? And where do those two things intersect? And that has been the biggest problem I have seen in innovation in this space over the last ten years has been, well, we're going to build this for the patient, and it's going to be amazing, and the insurance companies will just pay for it. That hasn't really panned out because nobody sat down and actually talked to the insurance companies and asked them what problems do they see happening that a product could solve?
\n\nAnd then the flip has happened too where they've gone to the insurance companies, and insurance companies have said, "Well, here are the problems," but then they've never talked to the patients. So it's getting that multifaceted perspective and then boiling it down to what truly is the problem we're going to solve?
\n\nCHAD: And the way I see it is that this problem is amped up in the healthcare space because there are so many stakeholders or people you're potentially building the product for. But it's a general problem too in enterprise software where basically the people making the buying decision are not the users necessarily or the people you're trying to help.
\n\nAnd any time where that's the case, you also run the risk of very difficult to build a good product because the people making the buying decisions aren't actually the ones who are going to be using it or don't have the same needs as the people that you're trying to help with the software.
\n\nTIFFANY: Exactly, exactly. So it takes a lot of time to sort all that out, and we rarely have that amount of time. I'd say one of the things that was so fascinating on the product that Relias and thoughtbot worked on was we had the time to go a little deeper and to really figure out...so the problem we were trying to solve is okay, we need a better tool. Physical therapists need a better tool to engage patients, specifically older adult patients.
\n\nAnd again, so we had the conversation with the clinicians, and they're like, "Oh, well, we want all of these exercises." But then we paused, and we said, "But really, what is your biggest clinical challenge?" And they all said, "Time. We don't have enough time."
\n\nSo then we were able to pull back and not go, oh, this is not about making the best exercise program ever. This is about creating a product that actually solves the problem of time. If we can enhance efficiency, then clinicians will use it. They'll be happy with it, and we can take it from there.
\n\nSolving the problem of time is a totally different problem than we have to create a product that offers you 30,000 different exercises. It was just a really important lesson because then once we said time, then all of a sudden, we had clinician buy-in.
\n\nAnd then we also had an organization buy-in because the organization is going, "Absolutely. If you can save my clinicians 10 minutes, that's going to increase their productivity. That's going to give them more time with the patient. Or maybe we could even get so efficient that there are more opportunities to see more patients." So it's tricky to figure all that out.
\n\nCHAD: So how did we figure that out? What tools did we use to have those conversations with people?
\n\nTIFFANY: Yeah, there was a lot of really excellent discovery and meeting with a good variety of clinicians but all practicing in the same space. And that's one of the things I want to call out. When you look at healthcare, healthcare spans so many different settings. And there are not a lot of consistency or universal truths between settings.
\n\nAnd what I mean is someone who is seeing a patient in a home health setting is going to have a very different skill set than someone who is working with a professional sports team, same training, same title, totally different set of problems. So we were really, really clear that we had to really refine this problem and get a very specific type of therapist.
\n\nAnd we also wanted to get a specific...I'm going to just use home health just for an example. But okay, so let's make sure we get therapists who are working in rural settings, in-home health, and therapists who are working in urban settings in-home health because we wanted to make sure that we had a better understanding of the problems they were facing in these multiple settings.
\n\nFrom there, from that discovery, got really, really, really very strict on what consistencies we were seeing around the problems that the therapists were running into. And from there, we just really focused on what was going to give us the most bang for our buck. And the problem of time was super consistent. The questions really were not like, well, would an app save you time? The questions were really what are your biggest challenges right now?
\n\nCHAD: And did you do that in one on one interviews with them?
\n\nTIFFANY: Yeah, those were one on one interviews. Yes. Yeah.
\n\nCHAD: How do you, when you're doing it, collect the data from those interviews in a way that is conducive to analysis later on?
\n\nTIFFANY: So I've used a whole variety of tools. And we were very analog in this particular one. We were interviewing one person, but there were about four of us on the call, and everyone was taking notes. And then everybody was highlighting common themes. And I've used focus group analysis software as well, which is always really, really helpful. But in this particular, we were really just going analog, and it worked pretty well.
\n\nCHAD: And you were doing this without a prototype or anything like that yet, right?
\n\nTIFFANY: Correct, for the initial without a prototype. Yep.
\n\nCHAD: And so once you had that potential job to be done or value proposition, how did you go from that job to be done to a potential product?
\n\nTIFFANY: So from there, we did go ahead, and we prototyped, and we prototyped a workflow that seemed to make sense given what we had heard from our users and then also just with my clinical background. And then that prototype really was the trick because a lot of times in healthcare, when you are working with clinicians, some are tech-savvy, but there's a significant amount (And this isn't age-dependent, but this is younger and older.) that are not.
\n\nAnd so they really need a little bit of context to ground what their thoughts are and how they think you can solve them. So by getting that prototype in place and by letting the therapist really bounce around in there and see what was intuitive and what wasn't, that was the game-changer. And we could really see okay, here's our understanding of this. And whoops! Missed that one. [laughter] Oh, this all makes sense.
\n\nBut you could see as therapists went through what they appreciated was that the user interface was super simple, super clean. They could easily find things. And even those who didn't have a lot of self-efficacy around technology really felt at the end of a 20-minute session I know how to use this, and I could see how this will save me time. All of that data really helped us understand we were going down the right path.
\n\nIt was a little unsettling because when we looked at other products in the market, they would basically say, "We literally have 6,000 exercises that therapists can use." Well, we were really saying, "We're going to give you about 400. But the reason why is because it's a lot quicker to review 400 exercises and identify what you want as opposed to 6,000." And by and large, what we were hearing was that "Oh, well, when I use those apps that have 6,000 exercises, I just get overwhelmed, and it takes too long."
\n\nCHAD: But that can be a little scary, too, because if you're in that situation where you know that the person making the buying decision is just going to look and say, "Oh, this one has more exercises." [laughs]
\n\nTIFFANY: Yep, yep, yep. Yeah.
\n\nCHAD: Actually, at this point, let's take a little bit of a tangent because you're doing this within an existing company, Relias. Relias isn't necessarily a small company. So what kind of reporting out or management of other stakeholders or the business did you need to do along the way?
\n\nTIFFANY: That's a great question. And Relias is a big company, but also, this was a very new space for Relias. So they had never looked outward at a patient engagement tool. The focus had always been education for clinicians. So this was a very new space for them.
\n\nAnd actually, the most important and early conversations really were with our legal team and our cybersecurity team. And that was because we were going to be creating a database for patients. Again, new space, and we really needed to de-risk as early as possible, make sure that we could actually build this thing, keep it safe, that the budget was going to align. Also, that information really restricted the kind of information that we can actually keep about patients. So having that on the front end saved us so much time later on. That was number one.
\n\nAnd I would say anybody who's looking in the healthcare space absolutely has to start there because, again, the rules are changing constantly. And as clinicians, we are trained on how to take care of patients. We are trained to maintain patient privacy. We typically don't have a whole bunch of experience on cybersecurity and how you actually keep an online system secure. So you need to make sure you're talking to the right stakeholders to get the right information. So that was critical.
\n\nCHAD: Some organizations have an executive sponsor on the team or embedded in the team so that there are direct status updates and awareness of new product development. Is that the track that Relias took, or was it something else?
\n\nTIFFANY: That was absolutely the track that we took, so we did have an executive sponsor who we reported out to each week gave updates to. And he was able to communicate out to leadership as well. And we also had lots of opportunities internally to give updates and to do demos. So people could understand what we were doing; why we were making the decisions we were making to make sure everything aligned appropriately.
\n\nCHAD: I'm a big believer in demos and that kind of thing to communicate. I think we all have been in situations where when you're working on a complex problem, even if you do all your research and answer every question in the most perfect way and all that stuff, if at the end of that process it’s the first time anyone's hearing about all the results of that, there's going to be so many questions about did you consider this? Did you consider that?
\n\nAnd I think we all know that if instead we communicate things along the way and keep people up to speed, there's much more understanding but also trust in the process.
\n\nTIFFANY: Yeah, absolutely. And I have also experienced what you're describing. And what I have found is it's really like the weekly demo can be really quick, super helpful, and then documentation, documentation, documentation. We've created FAQ pages because of exactly what you're saying.
\n\nBecause a lot of times, something isn't intuitive to a stakeholder, and maybe you've answered that question three or four times. So you've got to have it written down somewhere so that everybody's on the same page and understands. And even if they've missed seven meetings, if they come and have that question, hey, just so you know, we made that decision three weeks ago. This is why. This is the justification. This is why we're moving forward.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. Is there any other sort of techniques that you employ to try to keep people up to date or strike that balance there?
\n\nTIFFANY: The main one, I think, is the weekly report out. And it is a challenge, and especially with things being virtual, of course, it's even more of a challenge because I think it's really easy to get insular but being consistent and being timely.
\n\nSo if everybody knows okay, I'm going to go to this meeting on Monday morning at 10:00 o'clock, it's going to be 15 minutes, and I'm going to know exactly what's happening, all of a sudden, that organization piece is so key. Keeping it short is really key, and then everybody's on the same page. And you don't end up with that; hey, wait a minute, I didn't hear about that. Or why is that happening? Because that takes so much time to manage.
\n\nCHAD: We worked with one team several years ago, actually, but I realize that it might even be more relevant now. And I don't necessarily recommend this for every team. I think each team needs to find their own techniques that work well for their culture.
\n\nBut this team, rather than having meetings actually had...they had occasional meetings, but they actually had a team blog, internal, completely internal. And they essentially wrote a blog together that everyone who wanted to follow along was able to follow along with.
\n\nTIFFANY: I think that's a great idea. I think in bigger companies, sometimes that gets lost. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, it definitely worked for this organization's culture and who was following along, but it wouldn't work for everybody.
\n\nTIFFANY: Absolutely. One other thing that I need to call out that I didn't was with some of the formative user interviews, we had to push on this, but we did try to get at least one member of engineering coming to some of those or at least getting some highlights. And this may seem like, of course, you would do that. But when you're working in a fairly large company that's entering into new space, there are new ways to be engaging your engineering team that are different and may not seem valuable at the time.
\n\nSo we rallied pretty hard to get some folks in there so that they could really understand the problem that they were going to be contributing to solving. And that was critical because the assumptions about if you're building an app for an older adult versus the realities are so radically different that you can only really understand it if you visually see it or hearing from your user.
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\n\nWhether you're struggling to grow an agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in my 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot, I've seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and I'd be happy to work with you. Learn more and sign up today at thoughtbot.com/agencyu. That's A-G-E-N-C-Y, the letter U.
\n\nCHAD: Okay, so let's pop the stack now and go back to where we were before we took that tangent into that side of internal communication and management. So you had the prototype and were starting to show it to potential users and were getting positive feedback. What were the next steps after that?
\n\nTIFFANY: So the next steps for us were running through...and to be clear, we actually were creating two apps, which I never actually said, one for the clinician, [laughter] which the problem was to solve time, and one was for the older adult.
\n\nAnd I've had a ton of experience actually designing for older adults. So some people may think that that might have been the harder app. But there are some really straightforward design tenets that work when you're designing for somebody who's 60,70, 80, 90, 100-plus.
\n\nSo starting out on the clinician side, got our prototype, went through, validated it with about seven clinicians, identified some areas of confusion, identified some areas that we thought were totally intuitive and were completely not.
\n\nSo my favorite was we wanted a way for clinicians to identify the patients that they were going to see that day, and so we just thought that if they favorited the patients, if they just clicked a star, and they'll show up. And we had seven out of seven clinicians say, "Does that mean that they're actually my favorite patient? [laughter] Like, no. Okay, missed the boat on that one; regroup.
\n\nWe went through about three prototype revisions before we got to the point where we were really happy with the workflow and felt like it was intuitive. So that was the first thing.
\n\nAnd then the second thing was on the patient-facing side. And for that one, it's a totally different workflow because it's just one human who's being given exercises. So it really was, okay, how do they access the exercises? How did they experience the exercises? And what makes sense?
\n\nAnd so we had a lot of questions because we were trying to figure out, do we want written text? Do we want animations? Do we want animations with audio? So we had a really robust user group that we were able...we had about ten that we were able to actually demo, and they could give us direct feedback on.
\n\nAnd then we had a user group of about 30 people that we actually just started sending prototypes and surveys to get some better feedback. And what we found is when we did more of the email, we would send them an audio clip of an animation. And we did some really lovely A/B testing that way. And we got much better results.
\n\nBecause generally speaking, when you interview an older adult about something you are creating for them, they're super positive, even about the stuff they don't like. So it was a lot easier to get more robust, more real feedback by removing the human element and saying, "Hey, tell us how you really feel." We got some amazing feedback that way.
\n\nCHAD: That's interesting. And just in terms of timeline, was this happening pre-pandemic or post-pandemic?
\n\nTIFFANY: This was post-pandemic. Well, we really started doing this design work in the summer of 2020, so right in the middle of the pandemic, yes.
\n\nCHAD: Right. And so when you talk about these interviews and all that kind of stuff, everything was remote.
\n\nTIFFANY: Yeah, everything was remote, worked fantastic. That has been one of the cool things about being in this space, especially in design space, technology design, and aging, is that the acceleration of the technology adoption that happened in 2020 was mind-blowing.
\n\nI started working with design with older adults in 2014, building them different types of applications. And it just was incredible the level of comfort that I saw in 2020 amongst a much broader audience compared to 2014, 2015.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, we've definitely seen that as well across different products. And the underlying reason is bad, but it certainly makes what we're doing a lot easier to have more people comfortable, even with little things like being on a Zoom call and knowing how to share their screen. Little things like that would sometimes be a big hang-up for getting good interviews and good feedback with people.
\n\nTIFFANY: Absolutely, absolutely, and doing some relatively complex things. Like, we were trying to validate doing a two-factor authentication, and we were able to do it virtually. So it's really giving us some really neat tools to reach a broad audience.
\n\nCHAD: A little while ago, you called out that there are patterns for building applications for certain ages. Can you tell me more about that?
\n\nTIFFANY: Sure. There's actually been a lot of research done in this area. I've contributed a little bit to it. [laughter] So what we really found especially early on...and I was involved with a project to take the connect technology and the Microsoft Connect technology and modify it to deliver a fall prevention program to older adults.
\n\nSo in my previous life as a physical therapist, I have a Ph.D. in human movement and did a lot of research in healthy aging and injury prevention. And older adult falls is a fairly significant public health issue. And there are a lot of cool things you can do to address it around exercise. But the problem is scale. So how do you actually bring some of these exercises to older adults at scale as opposed to one on one? So that's the context behind this.
\n\nAnd so we started working with Microsoft SDK, building this out. And what we quickly realized is that the things that tend to make, let's say, a video game really cool and engaging are actually the worst things you can put into design if you're introducing an older adult or someone who's not comfortable with technology into a game. So you need a very simple interface, to begin with. And you need very straightforward commands.
\n\nAnd so it's funny because, in 2013, 2014 the people that were in this space all came from the gaming world. So they'd make these really beautiful backgrounds and things jumping and popping out. And you would lose your user within two minutes because it was just so visually overwhelming.
\n\nAnd one of the things that's interesting is as we get older, our brains are just not as flexible. They're super smart, but they get easily distracted. So what we learned is if you keep your user interface super simple, and then you make your early experiences very positive, so you keep the tasks very straightforward, you show success, what happens is your user gets a ton of self-efficacy. And they start to really realize that they know exactly what they're doing because they do. And then you can start doing some more interesting things.
\n\nSo what we found is with our technology, as we got our users, okay, they're using it three times, they're using it four times. They're being super consistent doing this exercise program. Let's make it more visually engaging then they could actually handle it because they weren't so worried about what do I do next to go forward in the exercise program?
\n\nSo yeah, so when you think about design, that was a really long-winded answer, sorry.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] It's okay.
\n\nTIFFANY: But you want to keep things super simple and straightforward. You do need to infuse it with compassion and empathy, and if you can do small successes, really, really helpful. The other thing that is incredibly helpful, and this is going to sound a little hokey, is that any kind of avatar or chatbot who's super positive really, really can have a big impact.
\n\nBecause a lot of times, older adults are by themselves trying to navigate this thing, and they have no idea what's going on. And if a chatbot pops up and says, "Hey, you're at this stage, do you need any help?" Or "Hey, you pushed the red button, good job." There's this very interesting relationship that gets built with older adults and chatbots and avatars. They engage with them much more.
\n\nAnd I think ultimately what I saw because we were using an avatar to lead through exercises is that self-efficacy increased because even though the avatar was leading them through the exercises, they ultimately knew it was them. Compared to if I was leading them through the exercises, there's always that yeah, I did it, but Tiffany taught me how. Whereas this is well, I did it, and the avatar taught me how, which really means that I actually did it. So I can actually do it. It's a really cool space.
\n\nCHAD: In validating the exercise format through those surveys and that kind of thing, what did you learn in terms of the format? Was animated ones winning out?
\n\nTIFFANY: Absolutely. What we learned was animation, hands down 100%. We also learned that animation plus narration really was the winning ticket. What we had tested we did some A/B testing where we did animation plus narration, and we had the exercise instructions written with the assumption that, well, some people are visual, and some people are auditory, and some people want to read the exercises. And we compared that to just animation plus narration and no written instructions. And the feedback we got was that it was too much.
\n\nLike, you're reading the instructions, you're watching, and you're listening, and it just was confusing and overwhelming. And sometimes it wasn't an exact match because when you're narrating an exercise versus reading about it, the words aren't always exactly the same because sometimes it just doesn't make sense to make them the same. But when you just had the narration with the exercise, people were really happy. They could see it, they could hear it, they could replay it.
\n\nAnd the other thing that was really nice about that particular format is it also gave a little bit of space. And this is on a mobile device, so when I say little space, I do mean little space where if the therapist had any specific cues, they could input it in there. So then now the patient's got...they can see the exercises, they can hear how to do it. "Oh yeah, and my therapist said, 'Make sure I put all my weight on my left leg.”’ So that just seemed to be the right package as opposed to dumping all of this information on the user.
\n\nCHAD: One of the things, when I've worked with people or organizations before that can become a bit of a blocker, is identifying something like this. Oh, animations with narration that's what this should be and then needing to produce all of that in order to bring the product to market to create it all from scratch. Was this material that you already had at your disposal? Or was it going to need to be created?
\n\nTIFFANY: It was going to need to be created. And the way we addressed that issue is we looked at, for lack of a better word, what are those key bread and butter exercises that just about every therapist prescribes to just about every person? I mean, it still was a sizable lift, but again, it wasn't an overwhelmingly huge production.
\n\nSo we went ahead and said, okay, table stakes. We've got to have these in because if you don't, then it's not really usable. And of all of these, which are the ones which are generic enough that if we built it once, a therapist could put in additional instructions to do any kind of modifications? So that was really how we addressed that.
\n\nI would say if somebody is starting completely from scratch, pick a total of 10 exercises or a total of 10 things and just pilot that and just try to do low-fidelity prototypes and just validate it before going down the path.
\n\nCHAD: So in the story here, we're moving towards actually building something. Was there a go/no go point in the product's life cycle where you needed to get sign-off on something in order to decide to actually bring this product to market?
\n\nTIFFANY: Yes. And interestingly, we are in that point at this exact moment in time. [laughter] So we're at the point where it's released in alpha. We're getting some really great feedback. And on the clinician side, we're back to the original challenge around building something for patients.
\n\nWe are still actually putting finishing touches on making sure that we can really secure this database the way it needs to be secured in 2022 because things, again, are moving pretty rapidly. So we are waiting for our go decision as we speak.
\n\nCHAD: But we did build something.
\n\nTIFFANY: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: So you didn't need to get full sign-off and go/no go before going from prototype to starting to build something.
\n\nTIFFANY: Correct. Yes, yeah. Yes, sorry.
\n\nCHAD: No, it's okay.
\n\nTIFFANY: We had, like I said, we were really good communicating out. We had all the data to support the decisions that we made. We felt like we had a couple of very minor outstanding things that we knew that needed to still be addressed. But we also felt we were at that point where we could go ahead and build. And once we got in people's hands, we probably have much better data on how to address the outstanding items.
\n\nCHAD: So given that you're at the point of you've gotten some things in people's hands, you're now making sure that this can be a product that you fully bring to market. What are some of the factors that are being looked at? And you mentioned security is one. What are some of the others?
\n\nTIFFANY: Some of the others...I will say one of the things that is not a factor but was a factor early on is, hey, wait a minute, can older adults really use this? Are they really going to want to use this? That's a slam dunk. Yes, they can use it, and yes, they really want to use it. Plenty of data there.
\n\nSo one of the factors that's...believe it or not, the pandemic is actually throwing us a little bit of a curveball in the sense of there is so much transition happening in healthcare right now that we're having a couple of little challenges around...some of our clients are actually changing their settings.
\n\nSo our first target market is people who are in home health. Well, if all of a sudden you are going from skilled nursing and opening up home health, there are a lot of factors you've got to balance. So that's been a little bit of a curveball. And it's also been a curveball in finding our early adopters to really go ahead and test it out.
\n\nAnd then the final thing that is a big challenge, and I think it's a challenge for everybody, is integration with pre-existing systems because there's so much variability and variety of EMR systems. I'll give you a great example. You could have a skilled nursing facility that has one EMR system, and that skilled nursing facility could contract with a rehab therapy company who uses a different system, but they're both seeing the same patient.
\n\nWe want to be super strategic about...because, again, that's a huge resource suck of looking at those API integrations. That's one of the things that we're really doing a deeper dive into now to really figure out where do we actually put these resources? What's going to give us the most bang for our buck? And knowing that the target is moving constantly.
\n\nCHAD: What do you do while your...one of the challenges can be like, oh, we've got a team ready to build the product. Are you in a holding pattern now? Or what do you do? How do you manage that?
\n\nTIFFANY: There are two ways to manage, and one is going back to your product right now and doing more testing, which is always a good thing because you're just refining, refining, refining. It’s tricky, though, because when you've got a lot of limits on resources, especially human resources, lots of projects going on, the tricky part is can I keep my team, or do they need to get repurposed?
\n\nAnd I think it's all about having really honest conversations and if they are going to be pulled into another project, making sure everybody's on the same page about what that looks like so that if you are in a holding pattern, when you get off that holding pattern, that there's not a huge delay. Lots of conversations, lots of discussions, yeah
\n\nCHAD: Well, I wish you the best in working through all of that and bringing this product to market. I know you've been a tremendous partner in working on this together. I know the team has enjoyed working with you. And we work with a lot of people at different companies, and your experience in navigating this has been notable.
\n\nTIFFANY: Thank you. The team was amazing. I mean, it is a really great group of people, really open, at the same time, really able to crystallize some of the challenges in a way that was incredibly effective. So yeah, it was really a fantastic experience, and I'm very grateful for it.
\n\nCHAD: So if folks want to follow along with you or get in touch with you, where are the best places for them to do that?
\n\nTIFFANY: Either on LinkedIn. I, of course, have a space on LinkedIn but also at Relias. And my email is tshubert@relias.com.
\n\nCHAD: Wonderful. You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
\n\nAnnouncer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Tiffany Shubert.
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Chad talks to the CEO of thoughtbot, Diana Bald, about 2021 in retrospect. thoughtbot, as a company, has settled into a new structure that contains different teams and committed to becoming a fully remote organization.
\n\nLast year, Diana successfully transitioned into taking over the company's CEO role. She and Chad talk about the improvements the company made in 2021, including DEI (diversity, equity, inclusion) efforts and training sessions, and look ahead to some improvements coming in 2022, such as an expansion of the apprenticeship program.
\n\nP.S.: thoughtbot is hiring! To see open roles, visit thoughtbot.com/jobs.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today back again is Diana Bald, the CEO of thoughtbot. Diana, welcome back to the show.
\n\nDIANA: Thanks for having me back, Chad. Hello everybody out there.
\n\nCHAD: You joined us in the spring; I guess is the best way to put it where we talked about the transition from me to you of CEO. And it feels like it was actually simultaneously both just yesterday that we did that recording and a long, long time ago. How has this year been for you?
\n\nDIANA: Yeah, I completely agree. It feels the same way for me. [chuckles] This year has been interesting and eventful. Well, 2021 has been.
\n\nCHAD: So we're recording this just in the dawn of 2022. Looking ahead, we're bright-eyed and ready to go to the New Year, right?
\n\nDIANA: That's right.
\n\nCHAD: So I thought that it'd be good to do a little bit of a retrospective or a review of 2021. A lot changed for thoughtbot. And the last time we talked about it was way back at the beginning of all those changes.
\n\nAnd I've had all the managing directors of the different teams on now to talk about the different teams, and what they're focused on, and how they're working, and what their goals are. And I thought it'd be fun to do that for thoughtbot overall with you.
\n\nDIANA: Yeah, I think it's a great idea.
\n\nCHAD: Cool. So since we last talked, we really settled into the different teams and the new structure. And even little things like we've sublet most of our office spaces and those kinds of things. I'm really reaffirming how things have gone. But I'm curious, just at a high level, what's been the most surprising thing for you about 2021?
\n\nDIANA: [chuckles] That was not a question I was expecting.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nDIANA: The most surprising thing for me was (There were a lot.) I think how quickly we put everything together actually. That was probably the most surprising thing. I think that we were able to reorganize and pretty much just get to work in the new team structure right away.
\n\nThere wasn't a lot of reinventing. We reinvented when we redefined. But as we started doing the work, it was very logical, like, oh, this makes a lot of sense. These teams break out very nicely. So that speed in which that happened, I think, was the biggest surprise to me.
\n\nCHAD: I know that some people said we moved maybe too quickly on some of those changes. How do you respond to those people?
\n\nDIANA: [laughs] It's different personalities. Well, can I take a philosophical perspective?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, totally.
\n\nDIANA: Okay. So I have a frame of mind as life doesn't happen to us. It happens for us in the sense that there is never a perfect time to do anything. One can be preparing, preparing, preparing, and it's good. Preparation is great. Analysis is great. All that stuff is good. But there's never going to be perfect anything. In fact, it's better to get started to get the feedback because the feedback is real.
\n\nAnd it's kind of like the way that we actually work, in fact. You respond, and you iterate based on what the circumstances are telling you. And I think that's the difference in point of view. So, for me, I thought the pace was nice. But I could see why other people might have thought we moved too quickly.
\n\nCHAD: So I forgot to mention the episode number if folks want to go back and listen to more of the details. It was Episode 392 where we talked, and then Episode 393 at giantrobots.fm/393 is where we talked about the details of the different teams and going fully remote, so if folks want to go back and listen to that. And then obviously, I've been talking to the different managing directors recently.
\n\nSo now that we're almost a full...actually, I think we're a full year from when we actually made the changes.
\n\nDIANA: January eighth was the day.
\n\nCHAD: So we're a few days shy of a full year. I think there are really two aspects of this whole thing. There was the concept of going remote and committing to being fully remote. And there's the concept of then reorganizing the company in a way that was supportive of that.
\n\nAnd a lot of that was driven by the fact that we were really organized previously around the geographic studios and how we didn't feel like continuing that way was going to be something that would be sustainable for us over the long-term, both from a sales and business perspective but from a people perspective too.
\n\nAnd so we talked about the teams and how quick and how I think overall well that has gone. How about the fully remote aspect? How has it been for you personally? That's one way to put it.
\n\nDIANA: Well, I think that remote should be taken into context. We went remote in a time when the entire world was going remote. And I think that if we had gone remote at a different time, our experiences would be a little different because, with the start of the pandemic, we had a lot of limitations to our freedom because we were on lockdown.
\n\nAnd so when you go remote in a time of lockdown, and a time of limitations to freedom, it's very different than being remote at a time when you have the flexibility to go work out during the middle of the day, go pick up kids from school or whatever one does when you have flexibility. [chuckles]
\n\nSo I think that the time that we started remote helped us clarify that yes, this is something we want to do. But I think our experience was tainted because we were in lockdown at the time, and our freedoms were very limited.
\n\nIf our freedoms weren't so limited, we had planned, as you know, because we talked about it, having pop-up offices or having the ability to bring people together, and we weren't able to do any of those ideas. The pandemic took much longer than we thought it would for us to get to that. And right now, we're back in that place where Omicron is going on. And we're still kind of semi...not really locked down, but a lot of us are being extra cautious.
\n\nAnd then, for me personally, I'm enjoying the freedom. I like the freedom. But I'm also very cautious because I have to protect my family. And I just need to be very careful when I meet with people and things like that.
\n\nCHAD: Well, I agree that the social-emotional impact of how things have been for the last two years basically has made this transition difficult for a lot of people, myself included. And we've needed to be mindful of that, I think, as we try to move forward as aggressively as possible towards the way things we want to be.
\n\nI think it's been challenging for myself, for team members to realize that the way things are now isn't necessarily the way things are always going to be. We will be able to be in person. We will be able to visit each other. We'll be able to have those pop-up offices and that kind of thing that we've been limited to do. I'm really looking forward to that sometime in the future.
\n\nDIANA: Yeah, for sure I am as well.
\n\nCHAD: The other side from the business has been we're not getting pressure from clients. I feel like I'm revisiting this topic. [chuckles] I know last time we talked, it was like, I wonder what it's going to be like when we start getting clients back in person. And is there going to be pressure to be with them? And that kind of thing.
\n\nAnd unfortunately, because of the pandemic going on, we haven't been getting that pressure. Now, that works for our business because it just relieves the pressure or the need to travel or schedule things and that kind of thing.
\n\nBut that being said, I'm more optimistic than I was before even though we haven't truly lived it that not only will clients...and that we have a really good way of doing things like design sprints and everything remotely but that there will be a benefit to getting together at the start of projects once we can safely do that and everything.
\n\nAnd I think people will better understand the concept of we're getting together to kick off the project or to do the design sprint. We could do it remotely, but we're choosing to do it in person with the understanding that it's totally fine to go back remote after we've had that in-person kickoff.
\n\nDIANA: Yeah, and I think that there's going to be some situations where it will be better to be remote to have the sprint and other situations where let's say you want to test something with a live audience or you want to get feedback from live people interacting with a physical object or something like that where it would make sense to have the physical in-person component. And other things are better with a brainstorm to have it be digital.
\n\nI think it just depends on the circumstances and the client and what they're looking to achieve. And having that flexibility that we don't currently have right now because of the variant is something I'm looking forward to.
\n\nCHAD: So when we talk about the transition and you taking over the CEO role, I said that one of the reasons why I thought that was the right thing to do and was excited to do that was because I thought that you were going to be better for what the company, and particularly the managing directors and the other leaders at the company, needed to get to the next stage.
\n\nAnd I forget exactly how much...a lot of that is baked into getting to the next stage of thoughtbot. One is resiliency of team and leadership and not having it be based solely around me. That's certainly one aspect of it. The other is your deep experience with sales and marketing; business development better match what we need to do going forward in terms of building, getting to the next levels of revenue, and sustainability.
\n\nAnd at the time, you were still learning, or maybe learning is the wrong word. How would you describe it? Basically, like getting a handle on things before making decisions or changes to move forward with certain aspects of how we do business development and that kind of thing.
\n\nDIANA: Yeah, I think I understand what you're saying.
\n\nCHAD: And so now that we're significantly past that point, what are some of the things that you've done or focused on with thoughtbot business development with thoughtbot overall that you would consider positive changes?
\n\nDIANA: I think the introduction of Rocket Fuel is one that I would consider a positive change in that direction. We had...I don't know if we want to re-familiarize the audience with the theme of rocket.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I totally think you should because I think it might come out of nowhere for people.
\n\nDIANA: [laughs] So we organized around a theme to make it easier for us to convey what we're doing. And you could think of the stages of a rocket from ignition to blast off in orbit. And basically, it's a fun way of saying that we have an end-to-end product development process.
\n\nAnd so everything from ideation and validation that's our Ignite team, to building and going to market is our Lift Off team. Scaling and transforming is our Boost team. And supporting and maintaining is our Mission Control team.
\n\nSo when you have a rocket, you need fuel. [chuckles] And so that's where we introduce Rocket Fuel, which is basically business development and marketing. And what we did is we changed it from being two different ways of approaching, driving the business into business development being the driver and marketing being the support.
\n\nAnd what I mean by that is it's more strategic, in line with the different stages of where we are. So for the Ignite team, their needs are very different than for the Boost team. So when we're in the ideation validation stage with a client, it's very, very different than a client who's in the transformation or in the scaling stage of their product.
\n\nSo having that mindset of driving that phase of product development has been very helpful to us because then we can apply the marketing tactics, strategies, plans around the stage of that product lifecycle. So that's been something that I think has worked really well this past year.
\n\nCHAD: So what does the Rocket Fuel team look like? What are the different roles on it?
\n\nDIANA: Well, it's small right now, but we're growing it. We have Kelly, who is our Associate Director of Business Development, and she's focused on supporting more of the implementation of some of the ideas that are coming out of each of the marketing tactics that I mentioned earlier. So whether it's partnerships with different organizations or whether it is campaigns that we're running so overseeing those, and she's also stepping in when the managing director has to step away for a few months, maybe somebody is taking paternity leave or something like that. Kelly stepped in there.
\n\nAnd then we have in sales enablement Liz who's serving as a Sales Enablement and Business Development Manager. And she's really helping us get exactly what her title says, enable the sales process. So she's putting together the marketing collateral. She's got our CRM system, getting that organized and up to date with information. And she's starting to work on updating our handbook with business development information and marketing information that's changed since we were in our old structure. So she's getting that in line.
\n\nSo she's more behind the scenes and more enabling us to move quickly. And Kelly is more on the strategic end of it, helping us build out the plans that'll drive the growth of each of our teams.
\n\nCHAD: And Liz is also helping respond to RFPs and making sure things move forward or are pulled together for making proposals and contracts with clients, right?
\n\nDIANA: Yeah, she's doing a great job on that.
\n\nCHAD: I think all of those things are something that we had talked about doing for a while, having someone be able to help with those kinds of things, especially when we have a world where managing directors at thoughtbot are responsible not just for sales but for the whole business that they run.
\n\nAnd so they have a lot on a day-to-day or a weekly basis of what they need to spend time on. So having someone who can help them have time to spend on things that are not sales and to make sure that sales move along quickly, I think, has worked really well. And it was something we had talked about for a while, and I'm really happy to see it come to fruition.
\n\nDIANA: Yeah, I am too. I agree; it is helping the managing directors take a breath. They need sustainable lives as well. And it's good that we're able to help them in this regard. I think we can help them even more. Liz has only been with us for a few months. And as she gets more and more comfortable, she gets more and more ideas and starts to run a little faster, which is great to see her do that.
\n\nAnd the same with Kelly, as she's wrapping her arms around her new role, she is also coming up with a lot of ideas. And it's exciting to see them work because they energize each other. [laughs] It's really cool.
\n\nAnd we're also recruiting for an Associate Director of Business Development for Mission Control to help us grow that team. If anybody out there is listening, and you know of anyone, [laughs] encourage them to apply.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's a really good point. So that Mission Control does DevOps, maintenance, SRE work, so we're really looking for someone who has experience growing and building that kind of business. And it's quite honestly a big growth opportunity because there's a real opportunity to start as the Associate Director of Business Development in that business and grow into more of a Managing Director role, right?
\n\nDIANA: Absolutely. We see it as an opportunity to come in on the ground floor; essentially as the very fast-moving, high potential team gets going. So it's a super exciting opportunity for people that are interested in DevOps or Site Reliability Engineering or anything else that we're doing in that space of support and developing.
\n\nCHAD: Great. Well, hopefully, someone hears this and says, "That's for me. I want to apply." If that's you, you can go to thoughtbot.com/jobs and check it out there. I'm making my hard pitch here. We also have some outside consultants helping with running different campaigns and digital marketing activities, right?
\n\nDIANA: That's right. We are working with outside consultants to help us run some targeted campaigns based on some of the strategies that Liz and Kelly are developing. And they're doing the actual implementation of the marketing. So they'll buy the ads; they'll run them. And we also have somebody helping us with social media. Mandy is doing that. She's doing a great job of that.
\n\nAnd we have Tori, who's still helping us out with some of the digital marketing campaign, conceptualizing them, and transitioning some of that work that she was doing on the CRM, transitioning some of that over to Liz to take over our sales enablement. So a lot of activity happening over here at Rocket Fuel.
\n\nCHAD: So to put it as plainly as I can, thoughtbot has been successful. We've been particularly successful from a culture and team, and thought leadership standpoint. But we haven't been incredibly successful in making a company that operates at the level that we do and generates enough profit to be really comfortable that when a pandemic hits...that's an extreme circumstance, but there are ups and downs in every business.
\n\nAnd our margins haven't been historically as large as other consulting companies and that kind of thing because of the kinds of team we have and the way that we run the business. And so a big goal of when we talk about taking thoughtbot to the next level has been sustainability and making sure that we operate with enough cushion that we can more than weather downturns or ups and downs in the business without having to let people go or make significant changes.
\n\nAnd if people listened to the prior episode, they know that we had actually made significant progress towards that goal in 2019. And we were feeling really great going into 2020 about what we were going to accomplish. And then, in April of 2020, we had a significant decrease in revenue all at once, which really threw the business into turmoil because we hadn't been operating with that significant margin, a sustainable margin.
\n\nSo we spent 2020 recovering from that, making sure that we had corrected some of those fatal flaws. And we saw, I think, a lot of that come to fruition in 2021 and had a really sustainable year where we met and exceeded our goals. I'm really happy about that. I assume you're happy to. [laughs]
\n\nDIANA: Yes, I'm really happy about that too. [laughs] I think that it's something that we haven't celebrated, and we need to celebrate it. It was actually a really great year for us financially. And I talked about speed earlier. And I said I was pleasantly surprised with the speed.
\n\nAnd one of the factors is that in the first quarter of last year, things started to come together for us in that vein of financial sustainability. And we were able to maintain it every quarter of the full year. That's pretty great. And we should pat ourselves on the back for that. Congratulations, Chad. [chuckles]
\n\nCHAD: Congratulations, Diana. You and I have talked about this before. So overall, the market recovered in a really good way for services, businesses, for software development. So that boosted our ability to really go above and beyond. But even putting that aside, it took a lot of work. It wasn't easy. And it was through the fundamental changes we had made that we were able to take advantage of that good market, I think.
\n\nDIANA: Yeah, I agree. And the intentionality of what we were doing, I think the reorganization helped us see clearly the benefits of each team. Obviously, today, I have a much clearer insight into each team's strengths and each team's capabilities than I did a year ago when we last talked.
\n\nI think we are still trying to get our...is it going to work? What is it going to look like? And now it's like, oh, this is so obvious. This makes a lot of sense. The teams are working on very different aspects of the product development lifecycle. And I think that intentionality also helped us with our goals.
\n\nCHAD: And I think that one of the goals of doing that too was to free people up to better understand and focus on the kind of work that they wanted to do rather than trying to do everything everywhere. And for the individual person at thoughtbot, never knowing what your next client project was going to look like because it could have been any of our types of clients that we have.
\n\nAnd I think overall, what I've heard from the team is that it has been a good opportunity to reduce those surprises, get better at the kind of thing that you're working on now, even if ultimately that means okay, you've done your stint in Lift Off and now you want to move over to Boost, or you've been in Boost, and now you want to give Lift Off a try. At least you can do that with intentionality as opposed to never being quite sure what your next project is going to look like.
\n\nDIANA: Yeah, exactly. There are some people that like that variety of moving back and forth, and that's good that we can make that happen. And then there are others like you said, that really want to hone in on an area of specialty and get better at that particular thing.
\n\nCHAD: I think there's a benefit to us even just having words to use to describe the different kinds of projects now because we never had those words to use before. So when now internally people say, "Oh, this is a boost-style project," that means something to people. And I think it helps us talk about the work that we're doing or we might do for customers.
\n\nDIANA: Yeah.
\n\nCHAD: Cool. So what else happened in 2021? [chuckles]
\n\nDIANA: What else happened in 2021? Well, we did a lot of DEI training, and that was great. I learned a lot in that training. I thought actually that I was pretty hip with everything. I thought I've been involved in DEI activities all my life, so I get it, of course. But then, once I took the training, I was like, wait, there's a lot to learn here. I thought I knew a lot. But I'm learning a lot.
\n\nThere were several courses and several sessions. And with each session, I came away learning a lot more than I thought I would and having a greater appreciation. I think one of the greatest appreciations I learned last year was an appreciation for words, how important it is to think about what you're saying. A lot of times, we just talk, and it's important to really think through what one says. I took that to heart from the training that we got.
\n\nCHAD: And I think people might hear that and say, "Oh, you're talking about being politically correct," and perhaps maybe having a negative reaction to that. But I think one way to think about it is it's not just being politically correct for the sake of being politically correct. But words can have an impact on people, or the way that you talk about something can have an impact on people, either by making them feel bad or excluding them.
\n\nWhen you have a group of people working on something, people come at work with so many different backgrounds and experiences, and perspectives. And so, having an inclusive environment where everyone can contribute fully is super important to not only being fulfilled in our work but ultimately creating great products too.
\n\nDIANA: Yeah, absolutely. And that diversity is something that will make us have better products. But it also makes us; I think in many ways, better people by understanding where others are coming from, what they might have experienced in the past, and knowing that what is available to one person may not be available to others.
\n\nSo it's not just political correctness but also a better understanding of humans and what we go through and that it's not necessarily equal for everyone. And it's not necessarily fair for folks. And that's sometimes easy to forget. And I think that training that we went through really reminded me. And it gave me an appreciation for the privileges that I do have and just a greater awareness that I'm so grateful for.
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\n\nWe do one-on-one coaching sessions and also monthly group meetings. We start with goal setting, advice, and problem-solving based on my experiences over the last 18 years of running thoughtbot. As we progress as a group, we all get to know each other more. And many of the AgencyU members are now working on client projects together and even referring work to each other.
\n\nWhether you're struggling to grow an agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in my 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot, I've seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and I'd be happy to work with you. Learn more and sign up today at thoughtbot.com/agencyu. That's A-G-E-N-C-Y, the letter U.
\n\nCHAD: So we've had a DEI Council at thoughtbot for a couple of years now. And I think that we created it because of the studio model. We were very distributed as a company. And so we wanted a group of people that could come together, work on things, but also collectively, educate themselves and take action items and everything, and then take them back to their physical studios.
\n\nAnd I think that now with the reorganization, with the progress we've made, it's not that the Council doesn't work. But it's in a different spot in terms of what we're hoping to achieve as a company and the way that it's working.
\n\nSo we actually have right before the end of the year, we opened a DEI program manager position, which is a full-time position at thoughtbot for someone to not do all of the work that the council is going to do but a centralized thing to make the distributed nature of the...to sort of empower the council, and free up time.
\n\nWe're all on client work a significant portion of our time. And so striking the balance between having DEI ingrained in the company, having everyone have enough time to work on what needs to be worked on, and to have it all be managed, we looked at that whole picture and said, we think that the Council could be even more effective if we have someone on board who can work with them full time basically.
\n\nAnd people might be saying DEI Council full time? It's not just the council. So it's diversity, equity, and inclusion. So it really permeates everything about our culture, and how the company works, and how it functions. And there's a lot there.
\n\nSo that person is going to be part of the operations team, which is my team. And they'll be ingrained, you know, part of everything that we do to make thoughtbot operate but through the lens of is this equitable? Are we inclusive of the people that we have on our team in Africa and South America, as well as the United States now?
\n\nThat's a huge thing for us, making sure that we're setting things up in a way that works for everyone at the company. And we're more internationally diverse than we've ever been before. And so that has been something that takes up a lot of our time. And we want to make sure we do a great job with it. So that's one of the things that this new person is going to do.
\n\nDIANA: Yeah, and one of the things I'm really excited about for this person is putting some metrics together for us. It's been hard for us to quantify our progress in DEI. And I know that this individual will be doing that, which is to me exciting because we're going to be able to see how are we really progressing with these initiatives? I think that's going to be great.
\n\nAnd also, being able to partner with other organizations just outside of thoughtbot is going to be interesting as well because our DEI Council does it, but none of us have a lot of time to actually do too much of it. Everybody's got like you said, client work and other things they have to work on. So that's another thing I'm really excited about this individual taking on is that outside partnership perspective.
\n\nCHAD: I feel like we have a lot of positions open right now.
\n\nDIANA: [laughs] We sure do.
\n\nCHAD: Not only in the operations or the non-designers and developers. We've got a lot of design and development roles open as well.
\n\nDIANA: Yep. Plug for the thoughtbot.com/jobs page. [laughter]
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. Well, one of the things that I'm really excited about going into 2022 we've had the Apprenticeship Program for 11 years now. We say on the website we've done over 50 apprentices. I think it's more like over 75. I just stopped doing the count a while ago.
\n\nBut we haven't been able to do it consistently previously because when we were distributed among the different studios, and everything was based on who you worked with in person, we needed to make sure, you know, not every studio was even large enough to have enough mentors to be able to have apprentices. But we also needed good projects for mentorship and having apprentices on them.
\n\nAnd we also needed to make sure, like, oh, if we take on an apprentice in Austin, we need to make sure that the Austin studio needs another Rails developer. And so it was pretty limiting. But even though it was limiting, we did lots of apprentices. And it's been super successful. So many leaders at the company started as apprentices.
\n\nDIANA: Christina comes to mind. She's like a development director now.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, exactly. A lot of the development directors at thoughtbot started as apprentices over the years. So I'm super excited because this is another thing that no longer being in-person studios unlocks for us is to say basically thoughtbot as long as we're hiring across all of thoughtbot, we will always have the need for designers and developers.
\n\nAnd so we can make the Apprenticeship Program more of a rotational program. No matter where you live now, you can join. We can do remote apprenticeship like all of our positions. And you can rotate among the thoughtbot teams with a great mentor from each team and then be promoted as a designer or a developer onto one of those teams that has a position for a Rails developer or a designer.
\n\nAnd that is going to enable us to have consistent apprenticeship positions across the company open all the time with a consistent application process with timelines laid out for when deadlines are going to be for applications and when we're accepting people, and when people start. And I'm really excited about that.
\n\nI think it's going to be not only great for apprentices, which is actually one of the primary reasons why we do it but also great for thoughtbot to get this consistency to what has been a really valuable hiring channel for us in the past.
\n\nDIANA: Absolutely. I think that's one of the things I'm most excited about, to be honest with you, is that Apprenticeship Program because of everything that you mentioned. And it's not like we just need to limit it to one person. It could be a group of people going through the program together, which gives them a sense of camaraderie as well and a second incoming class. We have an incoming class. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Right, right. My only regret is that even just in this first batch, we can see...or I've just had the potential of the Apprentice Program for us reinforced. In this batch, we have almost 1,000 applications across the two Launchpads with the design and development positions. It's incredible. [laughs]
\n\nDIANA: That's so amazing.
\n\nCHAD: Even though we're having more apprentice positions than we've had in many years going for 2022, it's still not enough. There are so many people that could be great fits for thoughtbot that we might not be able to have enough bandwidth to take on. So I'm looking ahead to the next thing as like, how can we grow enough to have even more apprentices?
\n\nDIANA: Well, let's get Rocket Fuel to help with that.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. I've often said that hiring great team members really isn't our problem. Our problem is consistently having more than enough work to be fulfilled, to be picky and choosy, while also having enough work for our team very reliably, weathering those ups and downs. And when we turn off hiring, it hurts our ability to hire overall because it takes longer to ramp it back up and that kind of thing. And I think you saw that throughout the course of 2021.
\n\nWe had to turn off hiring for a while in 2020. And when we resumed it, it took quite a while for those wheels to spin back up and for enough people to get through the pipeline. Because even though we get a significant number of people applying, we really only hire less than 1% of the people who come across because our standards of what we want when we add people to the team are high.
\n\nDIANA: Yeah, it's true. It's challenging. We really did feel that impact pretty hard for a while there; the repercussions of not having the hiring open in 2020 were felt for sure.
\n\nCHAD: We also made the decision that we were going to focus on making sure that when we started hiring back up, we didn't just necessarily go right back to the way that we were doing things before in terms of all of our process.
\n\nSo we used to have a lot of automation in place because of the number of applications. And we didn't immediately put all that in place because sometimes that automation got away from us. We care a lot about the hiring process. And we wanted to make sure that we just didn't blindly turn it back on because we had a sense that it wasn't 100% working for us.
\n\nAnd the other was that we made the decision from a DEI perspective to make sure that we didn't move forward on starting interviewing for a position without having the candidate pool we were choosing from reflect a representative sample of the United States.
\n\nAnd that's in the tech industry; if you put a role online and just let people come into it organically from a normal job pool, the tech industry isn't representative of the United States demographics. And so, if you just let that status quo come in, you're going to see what's reflected in the tech industry. So that was another important but real limitation that we put on ourselves when we started hiring again.
\n\nDIANA: Yeah, it was painful, [laughs] but it was necessary.
\n\nCHAD: And I think we've seen as people move through the pipeline and as our hiring goes up that it was worth it, even if it wasn't easy and was difficult.
\n\nDIANA: That's how things usually are, right?
\n\nCHAD: Right. [laughs]
\n\nDIANA: Things are usually not easy. And usually, things that are worth it, there's work involved.
\n\nCHAD: And we're not done with DEI work and trying to build the kind of organization we want to have. You're never really done. So there's always something that we can do better. We still need to really speed up our hiring process, which has been pretty much stuck at a certain timeline for a long time. And figuring out a way to speed that up while still staying true to the kind of process and the qualifications that we want to put on the process continues to be a challenge for us.
\n\nDIANA: I think that's industry-wide, though. I don't think that's unique to us. There are a lot of companies challenged with hiring at the moment. There are a lot of reasons for that. But we definitely have to keep on top of it and try to figure out ways to make ourselves better.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. I think the biggest problem is to the extent that if you lose people along the way that you would totally otherwise hire because they go to other companies first just because you didn't finish the process fast enough. That's the fundamental thing that we want to avoid.
\n\nDIANA: That's the real risk that we...I think we actually lost some people for that.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, definitely. And over the years, despite trying, we haven't been able to significantly speed up our hiring process. For folks who aren't familiar, a big part of our process is having a few different stages. And the final stage being pairing, working with actual members of the team for the day. We pay for that day. And meeting the rest of the team and having a process which involves the rest of the team it's not just a siloed hiring team that's making all the hiring decisions.
\n\nBut doing a full day visit as the last stage means effectively that we can never have two people interviewing for the same position. And then everyone being on client work and only really being able to do those visits on Fridays means that the fastest, unless we're willing to make a change to that, the fastest we can go to hire into any one position is one final stage interview a week. That's a bottleneck.
\n\nDIANA: That's a bottleneck for sure unless we have dedicated people doing the recruiting. Then that would be a challenge as well because that's all these folks would do.
\n\nCHAD: Right. And then the team would feel, you know, we gain a lot from everyone being part of the team. So that when people show up on day one, we can say, "Hey, everyone that you worked with, everyone that you met was a unanimous yes to you being here."
\n\nIt builds a tremendous amount of trust and confidence on both sides, I think. And to not have that, I think we would need to then do a lot more work in building up that confidence of those new team members and of the team in that process and on day one when they show up. So it's an area of future work for us, definitely. I don't know what the solution will be eventually. But I do know that it's an area that we have to improve on.
\n\nDIANA: Yeah, agreed.
\n\nCHAD: Cool. Well, anything else on your mind before we wrap up?
\n\nDIANA: No. I'm looking forward to 2022. There's a lot that we want to do. And it's going to be an exciting year. It's already starting off exciting. [laughter] Though, I do want to talk a little bit about community now or?
\n\nCHAD: How about we give a little sneak peek in terms of what we're thinking for 2022? And then, in a little while, we'll have you back on to talk more about it. How's that sound?
\n\nDIANA: Yeah, it sounds great.
\n\nCHAD: Okay, community has always been a big part of thoughtbot. It's what has driven a lot of the open-source that we've done, our blogging. But what do you mean by community in 2022?
\n\nDIANA: Well, we started off this conversation by talking about remote and some of the pros and cons associated with it. And I think that one of the things that remote does there’s a lot of benefits to it. But I think that we need to help overcome the challenges, and I want us to do more of that in 2022.
\n\nSo, for example, creating a culture where people feel the recognition that you might be able to do more in person than you do remotely or lessen feelings of isolation that some folks feel, bringing out the quiet voices among us, giving them space to talk and give their voice. How can we make that happen?
\n\nFinding ways for people to build relationships with each other and maybe people that have never met, that are on different teams. How do we make that happen? Just overall experiencing a positive, respectful and inclusive work environment. That at a remote level is something that I think we need to dive in deeper this year. And like you said, we can dive into that more at another time.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I'm excited. I feel it too. And it comes from I think maybe it was Stephanie or Louis that was talking about it, both members of our team who were generally like, when you were in person, there was an ease to either talking to someone off-hand or even just when you have a daily sync every day in person, it's easy to recognize a success and to have everyone applaud.
\n\nAnd when you aren't in person with each other, you need to work at it more to really foster that sense of team and community. And that's clearly part of what getting through 2021 and settling in and getting to the next level is about for us.
\n\nDIANA: Yeah, absolutely.
\n\nCHAD: Cool. Well, if folks want to get in touch with you or follow along with you, where are the best places for them to do that, Diana?
\n\nDIANA: I started off last year actually doing some tweets, and I'm not very good at it. I totally stopped doing it. But I'm going to try to do more of it. I can be found on Twitter @dianabald, first name, last name. I'm on LinkedIn, first name, last name. The good news about my name is that there’s not a lot of me out there, [laughter] people with my last name. So I'm easy to find. And by email, it's dianabald@thoughtbot.com.
\n\nCHAD: Great. You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode along with transcripts at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. I'd love to get some comments and questions in 2022 and bring them to the episode. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nDiana, thanks again for joining me.
\n\nDIANA: Thank you, Chad. Thank you, everybody.
\n\nCHAD: And thank you for listening. See you next time.
\n\nAnnouncer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Diana Bald.
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Chad talks to Rob Hirschfeld, the Founder and CEO of RackN, which develops software to help automate data centers, which they call Digital Rebar. RackN is focused on helping customers automate infrastructure. They focus on customer autonomy and self-management, and that's why they're a software company, not a services or as-a-service platform company.
\n\nDigital Rebar is a platform that helps connect all of the different pieces and tools that people use to manage infrastructure into infrastructure pipelines through the seamless multi-component automation across all of the different pieces and parts that have to be run to bring up infrastructure.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Rob Hirschfeld, Founder, and CEO of RackN, which develops software to help automate data centers, which they call Digital Rebar. Rob, welcome to the show
\n\nROB: Chad, it is a pleasure to be here. Looking forward to the conversation.
\n\nCHAD: Why don't we start with a little bit more information about what RackN and the Digital Rebar platform actually is.
\n\nROB: I would be happy to. RackN is focused on helping customers automate infrastructure. And for us, it's really important that the customers are doing the automation. We're very focused on customer autonomy and self-management. It's why we're a software company, not a services or as a service platform company.
\n\nBut fundamentally, what Digital Rebar does is it is the platform that helps connect all of the different pieces and tools that people use to manage infrastructure into infrastructure pipelines through the seamless multi-component automation across all of the different pieces and parts that have to be run to bring up infrastructure. And we were talking data centers do a lot of on-premises all the way from the bare metal up. But multi-cloud, you name it, we're doing infrastructure at that level.
\n\nCHAD: So, how agnostic to the actual bare metal are you?
\n\nROB: We're very agnostic to the bare metal. The way we look at it is data centers are heterogeneous, diverse places. And that the thing that sometimes blocks companies from being innovative is when they decide, oh, we're going to use this one vendor for this one platform. And that keeps them actually from moving forward. So when we look at data centers, the heterogeneity and sometimes the complexity of that environment is a feature. It's not a bug from that perspective.
\n\nAnd so it's always been important to us to be multi-vendor, to do things in a vendor-neutral way to accommodate the quirks and the differences between...and it's not just vendors; it's actually user choice. A lot of companies have a multi-vendor problem (I'm air quoting) that is actually a multi-team problem where teams have chosen to make different choices.
\n\nTerraForm has no conformance standard built into it. [laughs] And so you might have everybody in your company using TerraForm and Ansible happily but all differently. And that's the problem that we walk into when we walk into a data center challenge. And you can't sweep that under the rug. So we embraced it.
\n\nCHAD: What kind of companies are your primary customers?
\n\nROB: We're very wide-ranging, from the top banks use us and deploy us, telcos, service providers, very large scale service providers use us under the covers, media companies. It really runs the gamut because it's fundamentally for us just about infrastructure. And our largest customers are racing to be the first to deploy. And it's multi-site, but 20,000 machines that they're managing under our Digital Rebar management system.
\n\nCHAD: It's easy, I think, depending on where you sit and your experiences. The cloud providers today can overshadow the idea that there are even people who still have their own data centers or rent a portion of a data center. In today's ecosystem, what are some of the factors that cause someone to do that who isn't an infrastructure provider themselves?
\n\nROB: You know the funny thing about these cloud stories (And we're talking just the day after Amazon had a day-long outage.) is that even the cloud providers don't have you give up operation. You're still responsible for the ops. And for our customers, it's not like they can all just use Lambdas and API gateways. At the end of the day, they're actually doing multi-site distributed operations. And they have these estates that are actually it's more about how do I control distributed infrastructure as much as it is about repatriating.
\n\nNow, we do a lot to help people repatriate. And they do that because they want more control. Cost savings is a significant component with this. You get into the 1000s of machines, and that's a big deal. Even at hundreds of machines, you can save a lot of money compared to what you get in cloud.
\n\nAnd I think people get confused with it being an or choice. It really is an and choice. Our best customers are incredibly savvy cloud users. They want that dynamic, resilient very API-driven environment. And they're looking to bring that throughout the organization. And so those are the ones that get excited when they see what we've done because we spend a lot of time doing infrastructure as code and API-driven infrastructure. That's really what they want.
\n\nCHAD: Cool. So, how long have you been working on RackN? When did you found it?
\n\nROB: [laughs] Oh my goodness. So RackN is seven years old. Digital Rebar, we consider it to be at its fourth generation, but those numbers actually count back before that. They go back to 2009. The founding team was actually at Dell together in the OpenStack heyday and even before the OpenStack heyday. And we were trying to ship clouds from the Dell Factory.
\n\nAnd what we found was that every customer had this bespoke data center we've already talked about. And we couldn't write automation that would work customer to customer to customer. And it was driving us nuts. We're a software team, not a hardware team inside of Dell. And the idea that if I fixed something in the delivery or in their data center, and couldn't go back to their data center because it was different than what the next customer needed and the next customer needed, we knew that we would never have a community. It's very much about this community and reuse pattern.
\n\nThere's an interesting story that I picked up from SREcon actually where they were talking about the early days of boilers. This is going back a few centuries ago. But when they first started putting boilers into homes and buildings, there was no pattern, there was no standard. And everybody would basically hire a plumber or a heating architect. Heating architect was a thing.
\n\nBut you'd build a boiler and every one was custom, and every one was different. And no surprise, they blew up a lot, and they caused fires. And buildings were incredibly unsafe because they were working on high-pressure systems with no pattern. And it took regulation and laws and standards. And now nobody even thinks about it. You just take standard parts, and you connect them together in standard ways. And that creates actually a much more innovative system. You wouldn't want every house to be wired uniquely either.
\n\nAnd so when we look at the state of automation today, we see it as this pre-industrial pre-standardization process and that companies are actually harmed and harming themselves because they don't have standards, and patterns, and practices that they can just roll and know they work.
\n\nAnd so that philosophy started way back in 2009 with the first generation which was called Crowbar. Some of your audience might even remember this from the OpenStack days. It was the first OpenStack installer built around Chef. And it had all sorts of challenges in it, but it showed us the way. And then we iterated up to where Digital Rebar is today. Really fully infrastructure as code, building infrastructure pipelines, and a lot of philosophical pieces we've learned along the way.
\n\nCHAD: So you were at Dell working on this thing. How did you decide to leave Dell and start something new?
\n\nROB: Dell helped me with that decision. [laughs] So the challenge of being a software person inside of Dell especially at the time, Crowbar was open-source which did make it easier for us to say, "Hey, we want to part ways but keep the IP." And the funny thing is there's not a scrap of Crowbar in Digital Rebar except one or two naming conventions that we pulled forward and the nod of the name, that Rebar is a nod to Crowbar.
\n\nBut what happened was Dell when it went private, really did actually double down on the hardware and the more enterprise packaged things. They didn't want to invest in DevOps and that conversation that you need to have with your customers on how they operate, the infrastructure you sold them. And that made Dell not a very good place for me and the team. And so we left Dell, looked at the opportunity to take what we'd been building with Crowbar and then make it into a product. That's been a long journey.
\n\nCHAD: Now, did you bootstrap, or did you take investment?
\n\nROB: We took [laughs] a little bit of investment. We raised some seed funding. Certainly not what was in hindsight was going to be sufficient for us to do it. But we thought at the time that we had something that was much more product-ready for customers than it was.
\n\nCHAD: And what was the challenge that you found? What was the surprise there that it wasn't as ready as you thought?
\n\nROB: So what we've learned in our space specifically...and there are some things that I think apply to everybody, and there are some things that you might be able to throw on the floor and ignore. I was a big fan of Minimum Viable Product. And it turned out that the MVP strategy was not at all workable with customers in data centers.
\n\nOur product is for people running production data centers. And nobody's going to put in software to run a data center that is MVP. It has to be resilient. It has to be robust. It has to be simple enough that they can understand it and solve some core problems, which is still sort of an MVP idea. But it can't be oops. [laughs] You can't have a lot of oops moments when you're dealing with enterprise infrastructure automation software. It has to work.
\n\nAnd importantly, and as a design note, this has been a lesson for us. If it does break, it has to break in very transparent, obvious ways. And I can't emphasize that enough. There's so much that when we build it, we come back and like, was it obvious that it broke? Is it obvious that it broke in a way that you can fix?
\n\nCHAD: And it's part of the culture too to do detailed post mortems with explanations and be as transparent as possible or at least find the root cause so that you can address it. That's part of the culture of the space too, right?
\n\nROB: You'd like to hope so. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Okay. [laughs] In my experience, that's the culture of the space.
\n\nROB: You're looking more at a developer experience. But even with a developer, you've got to be in a post mortem or something. And it's like everybody's pointing to the person to the left and the right sort of by human nature. You don't walk into that room assuming that it was your fault, and you should, but that's not how it usually is approached.
\n\nAnd what we find in the ops space, and I would tell people to work around this pattern if they can, is that if you're the thing doing the automation, you're always the first cause of the problem. So we run into situations where we're doing a configuration, and we find a vendor bug or a glitch or there's something, and we found it. It's our problem whether we were the cause or not. And that's super hard.
\n\nI think that people on every side of any type of issue need to look through and figure out what the...the blameless post mortem is a really important piece in all this. At the end of the day, it's always a human system that made a mistake or has something like that. But it's not as simple as the thing that told you the bad news that the messenger was at fault.
\n\nAnd there's a system design element to that. That's what we're talking about here is that when you're exposing errors or when something's not behaving the way you expect, our philosophy is to stop. And we've had some very contentious arguments with customers who were like, "Just retry until it fixes itself," or vendors who were like, "Yeah, if you retry that thing three times, [laughs] then it'll magically go away." And we're like, that's not good behavior. Fix the problem. It actually took us years to put a retry element into the tasks so that you can say, yeah, this does need three retries. Just go do it. We've resisted for a long time for this reason.
\n\nCHAD: So you head out into the market. And did you get initial customers, or was there so much resistance to the product that you had that you struggled to get even first customers?
\n\nROB: We had first customers. We had a nice body of code. The problem is actually pretty well understood even by our customers. And so it wasn't hard for them to get a trial going. So we actually had a very profitable customer doing...it was in object storage, public object storage space. And they were installing us. They wanted to move us into all their data centers.
\n\nBut for it to work, we ended up having an engineer who basically did consulting and worked with them for the better part of six months and built a whole bunch of stuff, got it working. They could plug in servers, and everything would set itself up. And they could hit a button and reset all the servers, and they would talk to the switches. It was an amazing amount of automation.
\n\nBut, and this happens a lot, the person we'd been working with was an SRE. And when they went to turn it over to the admins in the ops team, they said, [laughs] "We can't operate. There's too much going on, too complex." And we'd actually recognized...and this is a really serious challenge. It's a challenge now that we're almost five years into the generation that came after that experience.
\n\nAnd we recognized there was a problem. And that this wasn't going to create that repeatable experience that we were looking for if it took that much. At the same time, we had been building what is now Digital Rebar in this generation that was a single Golang binary. All the services were bundled into the system. So it listened on different ports but provide all the services, very easy to install, really, really simple. We literally stripped everything back to the basics and restarted.
\n\nAnd we had this experience where we sat down with a customer who had...I'm going to take a second and tell the story because this is such a compelling story from a product experience. So we took our first product. We were in a bake-off with another bare metal focus provisioning at the time. And they were in a lab, and they set our stuff up. And they turned it on, and they provisioned. And they set up the competitor, and they turned it on and provisioned. And both products worked.
\n\nOur product took 20 minutes to go through the cycle and the competitor took 3. And the customer came back and said, "I can't use this. I like your product better. It has more controls with all this stuff." But it took 20 minutes instead of 3. We actually logged into the system, looked at it and we were like, "Well, that's because it recognized that your BIOS was out of date, patched your BIOS, updated the system, checked that it was right, and then rebooted the systems and then continued on its way because it recognized your systems were outdated automatically.
\n\nAnd he said, "I didn't want it to do that. I needed it to boot as quickly as possible." And literally, [laughs] we were in the middle of a team retreat. So it's like, the CTO is literally excusing himself on the table to talk to the guy to make this stuff, try and make it right. And he's like, "Well, we've got this new thing. Why don't you install this, what's now Digital Rebar, on the system and repeat the experiment?" And he did and Digital Rebar was even faster than the competitor. And it did exactly just install, booted, and was done.
\n\nAnd he came back to the table, and it took 15 minutes to have the whole conversation to make everything work. It was that much of a simpler design. And he sat down and told the story. And I was in the middle of it. I'm just like, "We're going to have to pivot and put everything into the new version," which is what we did. And we just ripped out the complexity. And then over the last couple of years now, we've built the complexity back into the system to do all those additional but much more customer-driven from that perspective.
\n\nCHAD: How did you make sure that as you were changing your focus, putting all of your energy into the new version that you [laughs] didn't introduce too much risk in that process or didn't take too long?
\n\nROB: [laughs] We did take too long and introduced too much risk, and we did run out of money. [laughs] All those things happened. This was a very difficult decision. We thought we could get it done much faster. The challenge of the simpler product was that it was too simple to be enough in customers’ data centers. And so yeah, we almost went out of business in the middle of all this cycle. We had a time where RackN went back down to just the two founders.
\n\nAnd at this point, we'd gotten far enough with the product that we knew it was the right thing. And we'd also embedded a degree...with the way we do the UX, we have this split. The UX runs on a hosted system. It doesn't have to but by default, it does. And then we have the back end. So we were very careful about how we collected metrics because you really need to know who's downloading and using your products.
\n\nAnd we had enough data from that to realize that we had some very committed early users and early customers, just huge brand names that were playing around. So we knew that we'd gotten this mix right, that we were solving a problem in a unique way. But it was going to take time because big companies don't make decisions quickly. We have a joke. We call it the reorg half-life problem. So the half-life of a reorg in any of our customers is about nine months. And either you're successful inside of that reorg half-life, or you have to be resilient across this reorg half.
\n\nAnd so initially, it was taking more than nine months. We had to be able to get the product in play. And once we did, we had some customers who came in with very big checks and let us come back and basically build back up. And we've been adding some really nice names into our customer roster. Unfortunately, it's all private. I can tell you their industries and their scale, but I can't name them.
\n\nBut that engagement helped drive us towards the feature set and the capabilities and building things up along that process. But it was frustrating. And some of them, especially at the time we were open-source, were very happy to say, "No, we are a super big brand name. We don't pay for software." I'm like, "Most profitable, highest valued companies in the world you don't want to pay for this operational software?" And they're like, "No, we don't have to." And that didn't sit very well with us. Very hard, as a starting startup, it was hard.
\n\nCHAD: At the time, everything you were doing was open source.
\n\nROB: So in the Digital Rebar era, we were trying to do Open Core. Digital Rebar itself was open. And then we were trying to hold back the BIOS patches, integrate enterprise single sign-on. So there was a degree of integration pieces that we held back as RackN and then left the core open. So you could use Digital Rebar and run it, which we had actually had a lot of success with people downloading, installing, and running Digital Rebar, not as much success in getting them to pay us for that privilege.
\n\nCHAD: So, how did you adjust to that reality?
\n\nROB: We inverted the license. After we landed a couple of big banks and we had several others and some hyperscalers too who were like, "This is really good software. We love it. We're embedding it in our service, but we're not going to pay you." And then they would show up with bugs and complaints and issues and all sorts of stuff still.
\n\nAnd what happened is we started seeing them replicating the closed pieces. The APIs were open. We actually looked at it and listening to our communities, they wanted to see what was in the closed pieces. That was actually operationally important for them to understand how that stuff worked. They never contributed or asked to see anything in the core. And, there's an important and here, and they needed performance improvements in the core that were radically different.
\n\nSo the original open-source stuff went to maybe 500 machines, and then it started to cap out. And we were like, all right, we're going to have to really rewrite the data store mechanisms that go with this. And the team looked at each other and were like, "We're not going to open source that. That's really complex and challenging IP." And so we said the right model for us is going to be to make the core closed and then allow our community and users to see all the things that they are actually using to interact with their environment. And it ends up being a little bit of a filter.
\n\nThere are people who only use open-source software. But those companies also don't necessarily want to pay. When I was an open-source evangelist, this was always a problem. You're pounding on the table saying, "If you're using open-source software, you need to understand who to pay for that service, that software that you're getting. If you're not paying for it, that software is going to go away." In a lot of cases, we're a walking example of that.
\n\nAnd it's funny, more of the codebase is open today than it was then. [chuckles] But the challenge is that it's really an open ecosystem now because none of that software is particularly useful without the core to run it and glue everything together.
\n\nCHAD: Was that a difficult decision to make? Was it controversial?
\n\nROB: Incredibly difficult. It was something I spent a lot of time agonizing about. My CTO is much clear-eyed on this. From his perspective, he and the other engineers are blood, sweat, and tears putting this in. And it was very frustrating for them to see it running people's production data centers who told us, and this is I think the key, who just said to us, "You know, we're not going to pay money for that." And so for them, it was very clear-eyed it's their work, their sweat equity, very gut feeling for that.
\n\nFor me, I watched communities with open-source routes, you know, the Kubernetes community. I was in OpenStack. I was on the board for that. And there is definitely a lift that you get from having free software and not having the strings. And I also like the idea that from a support perspective, if you're using open-source software, you could conceivably not care for the vendor that went away. You could find another life for it.
\n\nBut years have gone by and that's not actually a truism that when you are using open-source software if you're getting it from a vendor, you're not necessarily protected from that vendor making decisions for you. CentOS is a great...the whole we're about to hit the CentOS deadlines, which is the Streams, and you can't get other versions. And we now have three versions of CentOS, at least three versions of CentOS with Rocky, and Alma, and CentOs Streams. Those are very challenging decisions for people running enterprise data centers, not that simple.
\n\nAnd nobody in our communities is running charity data centers. There's no goodwill charity. I'm running a data center out of the goodness of my heart. [laughs] They are all production systems, enterprise. They're doing real production work. And that's a commercial engagement. It's not a feel-good thing.
\n\nCHAD: So what did you do in your decision-making process? What pushed you, or what did you come to terms with in order to make that change?
\n\nROB: I had to admit I was wrong. [laughter] I had to think back on statements I'd made and the enthusiasm that I'd had and give up some really hard beliefs. Being a CEO or a founder is the same process. So I wish I could say this was the only time [laughs] I had to question, you know, hard-made assumptions, or some core beliefs in what I thought.
\n\nI've had to get really good at questioning when am I projecting this is the way I want the world to be therefore it will be? That's a CEO skill set and a founder skill set...and when that projection is having you on thin ice. And so you constantly have to make that balance.
\n\nAnd this was one of those ones where I'm like, all right, let's do it. And I still wake up some mornings and look at people who are open source only and see how much press they get or how easy it is for them to get mentions and things like that. And I'm like, ah, God, that'd be great. It feels like it's much harder for us because we're commercial to get the amplification.
\n\nThere are conferences that will amplify open-source TerraForm, great example. It gets tons of amplification for being a single vendor project that's really tightly controlled by HashiCorp. But nobody is afraid to go talk about TerraForm and mention TerraForm and do all this stuff, the amazing use of open source by that company. But they could turn it and twist it, and they could change it. It's not a guarantee by any stretch of the imagination.
\n\nCHAD: Well, one of the things that I've come to terms with, and maybe this is a very positive way of looking at it, instead of that you were wrong, [laughter] is to realize that well, you weren't necessarily wrong. It got you to where you were at that point. But maybe in order to go to the next level, you need to do something different. And that's how I come to terms with some things where I need to change my thinking.
\n\nROB: [laughs] I like that. It's good. Sometimes you can look back and be like, yeah, that wasn't the right thing and just own it. But yeah, it does help you to know the path. Part of the reason why I love talking about it with you like this is it's not just Rob was wrong; we're actually walking the path through that decision. And it's easy to imagine us sitting in...we're in a tiny, little shared office listening to calls where...I'll tell you this as a story to make it incredibly concrete because it's exactly how this happened.
\n\nWe were on a call. Everybody was in the room. And we were talking to a major bank saying, "We love your software." We're like, "Great, we're looking forward to working with you," all this stuff. And they're like, "Yeah, we need you to show us how you built this plugin because we want to write our own version of it."
\n\nCHAD: [chuckles]
\n\nROB: We're like, "If you did that, you wouldn't need to buy our software." And they're like, "That's right. We're not going to buy your software."
\n\nCHAD: Exactly. [laughs]
\n\nROB: And we're like, "Well, we won't show you how to use it. Then we won't show you how to do that." And they're like, "Well, okay. We'll figure it out ourselves." And so I'm the cheerful, sunny, positive, sort of managing the call, and I'm not just yelling at them. My CTO is sitting next to me literally tearing his hair. This was literally a tearing his hair out moment. And we hung up the call, and we went on a walk around the neighborhood. And he was just like, "What more do you need to hear for you to understand?"
\n\nAnd so it's moments like that. But instead of being like, no, you're wrong, we got to do it this way, I was ready to say, "Okay, what do you think we can do? How do we think we can do it?" And then he left me with a big pile of PR messaging to explain what we're doing, conversations like this. Two years ago when we made this change, almost three, I felt like I was being handed a really hard challenge.
\n\nAs it turns out, it hasn't been as big a deal. The market has changed about how they perceive open source. And for enterprise customers, they're like, "All right, how do we deal with the licensing for this stuff?" And we're like, "You just buy it from us." And they're like, "That's it?" And I'm like, "Yes." And you guarantee every..." "Yes." They're like, "Oh. Well, that's pretty straightforward. I don't have to worry about..."
\n\nWe could go way down an open-source rabbit hole and the consulting pieces and who owns the IP, and I used to deal with all that stuff. Now it's very straightforward. [laughs] Like, "You want to buy and use the software to run your data center?" "Yes, I do." "Great."
\n\nCHAD: Well, I think this is generally applicable even beyond your specific product but to products in general. It's like, when you're not talking to people who are good customers or who are even going to be your customers who are going to pay for what you want, you can spend a lot of time and energy trying to please them. But you're not going to be successful because they're not going to be your customers no matter what you do.
\n\nROB: And that ends up being a bit of a filter with the open-source pieces is that there are customers who were dyed in the wool open source. And this used to be more true actually as the markets moved a lot. We ended up just not talking to many. But they do, they want a lot. They definitely would ask for features or things and additions and help, things like that. And it's hard to say no. Especially as a startup founder, you want to say yes a lot.
\n\nWe try to not say yes to things that we don't...and this puts us at a disadvantage I feel like from a marketing perspective. If we don't do something, we tend to say we don't do it, or we could do it, but it would take whatever. I wish more people in the tech space were as disciplined about this does work, this doesn't work, this is a feature. This is something we're working on. It's not how tech marketing typically works sadly. That's why we focus on self-trials so people can use the product.
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\n\nCHAD: So you have the core and then you have the ecosystem. And you also mentioned earlier that it is an actual software package that people are buying and installing in their data center. But then you have the UI which is in the cloud and what's in the data center is reporting up to that.
\n\nROB: Well, this is where I'm going to get very technical [laughs] so hang on for a second. We actually use a cross-domain approach. So the way this works...and our UX is written in React. And everything's...boy, there's like three or four things I have to say all at once. So forgive me as I circle.
\n\nEverything we do at Digital Rebar is API-first, really API only, so the Golang service with an API, which is amazing. It's the right way to do software. So for our UX, it is a React application that can talk to that what we call an endpoint, that Digital Rebar endpoint. And so the UX is designed to talk directly to the Digital Rebar endpoint, and all of the information that it gets comes from that Digital Rebar endpoint. We do not have to relay it. Like, you have to be inside that network to get access to that endpoint. And the UX just talks to it.
\n\nCHAD: Okay. And so the UX is just being served from your centralized servers, but you're just delivering the React for the JavaScript app. And that is talking to the local APIs.
\n\nROB: Right. And so we do use that browser as a bridge. And so when you want to download new content packs...so Digital Rebar is a platform. So you have to download content and automation and pieces into it. The browser is actually your bridge to do that. So the browser can connect to our catalog, pull down our catalog, and then send things into that browser. So it's super handy for that.
\n\nBut yeah, it's fundamentally...it's all behind your firewall software except...and this is where people get confused because you're downloading it from rackn.io. That download or the URL on the browser looks like it's a RackN URL even though all the traffic is network local.
\n\nCHAD: Do your customers tend to stay up to date? Are they updating to the latest version right away all the time?
\n\nROB: [laughs] No, of course not.
\n\nCHAD: I figured that was the answer.
\n\nROB: And we maintain patches on old versions and things like that. I wish they were a little faster. I'm not always sad that they're...I'm actually very glad when we do a release like we did yesterday...And in that release, I don't expect any of our production customers to go patch everything.
\n\nSo in a SaaS, you might actually have to deal with the fact that you've got...and we're back to our heterogeneity story. And this is why it's important that we don't do this. If we were to push that, if we didn't handle every situation for every customer exactly right, there would be chaos. And it would all come back to our team. The way we do it means that we don't have to deal with that. Customers are in control of when they upgrade and when they migrate, except in the UX case.
\n\nCHAD: So how do you manage that if someone goes to the UI and their local thing is an old version? Are you detecting that and doing things differently?
\n\nROB: Yes, one of the decisions we made that I'm really happy with is we embedded feature flags into the API. When you log in, it will pull back. We know what the versions are. But versions are really problematic as a way to determine what's in software, not what's not in software. So instead, we get an array back that has feature flags as we add features into the core. And we've been doing this for years. And it's an amazingly productive process.
\n\nAnd so what the UX does is as we add new things into the UX, it will look for those feature flags. And if the feature flag isn't there, it will show you a message that says, "This feature is not available for your endpoint," or show you the thing appropriate without that. And so the UX has gone through years of this process. And so there are literally just places where the UX changes behavior based on what you've installed on your system.
\n\nAnd remember, our customers it's multi-site. So our customers do have multiple versions of Digital Rebar installed across there. So this behavior is really important also for them to be able to do it. And it goes back to LaunchDarkly. I was talking to Edith back in the early days of LaunchDarkly and feature flags, and I got really excited about that. And that's why we embedded it into the product. Everybody should do it. It's amazing.
\n\nCHAD: One of the previous episodes a few ago was with actually the thoughtbot CTO, Joe Ferris. And we're on a project together where it's a different way of working but especially when you need it... so much of what I had done previously was versioned APIs. Maybe that works at a certain scale. But you get to a certain scale of software and way of working and wanting to do continuous deployment and continually update features and all that stuff. And it's a really good way of working when instead you are communicating on the level of feature availability.
\n\nROB: And from an ops person's perspective, and this was true with OpenStack, they were adding feature flags down at the metadata for the...it was incredible. They went deep into the versioned API hellscape. It's the only way I can describe it [laughs] because we don't do that. But the thing that that does not help you with is a lot of times the changes that you're looking at from an API perspective are behavior changes, not API changes. Our API over years now has been additive.
\n\nAnd as long as you're okay with new objects showing up, new fields showing up in an object, you could go back to four-year-old software, talk to our API, and it would still work just fine. So all your integrations are going to be good, but the behavior might change. And that's what people don't...they're like, oh, I can make my API version, and everything's good. But the behavior that you're putting behind the scenes might be different. You need a way to express that even more than the APIs in my opinion.
\n\nCHAD: I do think you really see that when you...if you're just building a monolithic web app, it's harder to see. But once you separate your UI from your back end...and where I first hit this was with mobile applications. The problem becomes more obvious to you as a developer I think.
\n\nROB: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: Because you have some people out there who are actually running different versions of your UI too. So your back end is the same for everybody but your UI is different.
\n\nROB: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: And so you need a back end that can respond to different clients. And a better way to do that rather than versioning your API is to have the clients tell you what they're capable of while they're making the requests and to respond differently. It's much more of a flexible way.
\n\nROB: We do track what UX. We have customers who don't want to use that. They don't even want us changing the UX...or actually normal enterprise. And so they will run...the nice thing about a React app is you can just run it. The Digital Rebar can host its UX, and that's perfectly reasonable. We have customers who do that.
\n\nBut every core adds more operational complexity. And then if they don't patch the UX, they can fall behind or not get features. So we see that it's...you're describing a real, you know, the more information you're exchanging between the clients and the servers, the better for you to track what's really going on.
\n\nCHAD: And I think overall once you can get a little...in my experience, especially people who haven't worked that way, joining the team, it can take a little bit for them to get comfortable with that approach and the flexibility you need to be building into your system. But once people are comfortable with it and the team is comfortable, it really starts to hum.
\n\nIn my experience, a lot of what we've advocated for in terms of the way software should be built and deployed and that kind of thing is it actually makes it so that you can leave that even easier. And you can really be agile because you can roll things out in a very agile way.
\n\nROB: So are you thinking like an actual rolling deployment where the deployed software has multiple versions coming through?
\n\nCHAD: Yep. And you can also have different users seeing different things at different times as well. You can say, "We're going to be doing continual deployment and have code continually deployed." But that doesn't mean that it's part of the release yet, that it's available to users to use.
\n\nROB: Yeah, that ability to split and feature flag is a huge deal.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. What I'm trying to figure out is does this apply to every project even the small like, this just changes the way you should build software? Or is there a time in a product to start introducing that thing?
\n\nROB: I am a big fan of doing it first and fast. There are decisions that we made early that have proven out really well. Feature flags is one of them. We started right away knowing that this would be an important thing for us to do. And same thing with tracking dependencies and being able to say, "I need..." actually, it's helpful because you can write automation that says, "I need this feature in the product." This flag and the product it's not just a version thing. That makes the automation a little bit more portable, easier to maintain.
\n\nThe other thing we did that I really like is all of our objects have documentation embedded in them. So as I write a parameter or an ask or really anything in the system, everything has a documentation field. And so I can write the documentation for that component right there. And then we modified our build scripts so that they will pull in all of that documentation and create an aggregated view. And so the ability to do just-in-time documentation is very, very high. And so I'm a huge fan of that.
\n\nBecause then you have the burden of like, oh, I need to go back and write up a whole bunch of documentation really lessened when you can be like, okay, for this parameter, I can explain its behavior, or I can tell you what it does and know that it's going to show up as part of a documentation set that explains it. That's been something I've been a big fan of in what we build.
\n\nAnd not everybody [laughs] is as much a fan. And you can see people writing stuff without particularly crisp documentation behind it. But at least we can go back and add that documentation or lessons learned or things like that. And it's been hugely helpful to have a place to do that.
\n\nFrom a design perspective, one other thing I would say that we did that...and you can imagine the conversation. I have a UX usability focus. I'm out selling the product. So for me, it's how does it demo? How does it show? What's that first experience like? And so for me having icons and colors in the UX, in the experience is really important. Because there's a lot of semantic meaning that people get just looking down a list of icons and seeing that they are different colors and different shapes.
\n\nBut from the CTO's perspective, that's window dressing. Who cares? It doesn't have functional purpose. And we're both right. There's a lot of times when to me, both people can be right. So we added that as a metafield into all of our objects. And so we have the functional part of the definition of the API. And then we have these metaobjects that you can add in or meta definitions that you can add in behind the scenes to drive icons and colors.
\n\nBut sometimes UX rendering hints and things like that that from an API perspective, you're like, I don't care, not really an API thing. But from a do I show...this is sensitive information. Do I turn it into a password field? Or should this have a clipboard so I can clipboard icon it, or should I render it in this type of viewer or a plain text viewer? And all that stuff we have a place for.
\n\nCHAD: And so it's actually being delivered by the API that's saying that.
\n\nROB: Correct.
\n\nCHAD: That's cool.
\n\nROB: It's been very helpful. You can imagine the type of stuff we have, and it's easy to influence UX behaviors without asking for UI change.
\n\nCHAD: Now, are these GraphQL APIs?
\n\nROB: No. We looked at doing that. That's probably a whole nother...I might get our CTO on the line for that.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] It's a whole nother episode for that.
\n\nROB: But we could do that. But we made some decisions that it wasn't going to provide a lot of lift for us in navigation at the moment. It's funny, there's stuff that we think is a really cool idea, but we've learned not to jump on them without having really specific customer use cases or validations.
\n\nCHAD: Well, like you said, you've got to say no. You've got to make decisions about what is important, and what isn't important now, and what you'll get to later, and that requires discipline.
\n\nROB: This may be a way to bring it full circle. If you go back to the stories of every customer having a unique data center, there’s this heterogeneity and multi-vendor pieces that are really important. The unicycle we have to ride for this is we want our customers to have standard operating processes, standard infrastructure pipelines for this and use those and follow that process.
\n\nBecause we know if they do, then they'll keep improving as we improve the pipelines. And they're all unique. So there has to be a way in those infrastructure pipelines to do extensions that allow somebody to say, "I need to make this call here in the middle of this pipeline." And we have ways to do that address those needs.
\n\nThe challenge becomes providing enough opinionated like, this is how you should do things. And it's okay if you have to extend it or change it a little bit or tweak it without it just becoming an open-ended tool where people show up and they're like, "Oh, yeah, I get how to build something." And we have people do this, but they run out of gas in the long journey.
\n\nThey end up writing bespoke workflows. They write their own pipelines; they do their own integrations. And for them, it's very hard to support them. It's very hard to upgrade them. It's very hard for them to survive the reorg, your nine-month reorg windows.
\n\nAnd so yeah, there's a balance between go do whatever you want, which you have to enable and do it our way because these processes are going to let your teams collaborate, let you reuse software. And we've actually over time been erring more and more on the side of you really need to do it the way we want you to do; reinforce the infrastructure as code processes.
\n\nAnd this is the key, right? I mean, you're coming from a development mindset. You want your tooling to reinforce good behavior, CICD, infrastructure as code, all these things. You need those to be easier to do [laughs] than writing it yourself. And over time, we've been progressing more and more towards the let's make it easier to do it within the opinionated way that we have and less easy to do it within the Wild West pattern.
\n\nCHAD: Cool. Well, I think with that, we'll start to wrap up. So if people want to find out more, where are some places that they could do that or get in touch with you?
\n\nROB: The simplest thing is of course rackn.com is the website. We encourage people to just, if this is interesting, download and try the software. If they have a cloud account, it's super easy to play with it, all things RackN through that.
\n\nI am very active on Twitter under the handle @zehicle Z-E-H-I-C-L-E. And I'm happy to have conversations around these topics and data center and operations and even the future of cloud and edge computing. So please look me up. I'm excited to have conversations like that.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. And you can subscribe to the show and find notes and transcripts for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
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Sponsored By:
Neal Amrhein is the founder and CEO and Matt Erickson is the CTO of My Goat. My Goat is a subscription mowing service for commercial properties. They use robotic mowers and elegant software tools to make turf care easy, convenient, and affordable.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is a couple of people from a company with actual robots. It's Neal Amrhein, the founder and CEO, and Matt Erickson, the CTO of My Goat. Gentlemen, thanks for joining me.
\n\nSo tell me more about this idea that you are robot-agnostic? Are you helping people choose the solution that's right for them? Or do you have go-to vendors?
\n\nNEIL: We do. So my philosophy, having spent a number of years in technology selling hardware and even software solutions, is that one thing that my experience has held is that hardware gets better, faster, and cheaper.
\n\nAnd for us to invest in a hardware platform or have customers invest in a hardware platform, I liken it to my early adoption of high-definition televisions where in 2003, I was one of those guys that spent $2,400 on a 42-inch Sony Wega TV. And now you can get a 70-inch with a lot more technology and so forth for about $300 at Costco.
\n\nSo my feeling about hardware is it gets better, faster, cheaper. It's really the software that makes the difference in terms of how you leverage it. So we engage about 6 to 12 different hardware manufacturers that make autonomous robots from robots that are 27 to 35 pounds up to 1,200 pounds and all different variations in between.
\n\nAnd then, we extract the communication tools so that we can help our users who are formerly the groundskeepers become technology groundskeepers. And they are now interfacing with the concept of autonomous robots that are mowing commercial properties 24/7, which we would actually call maintaining versus mowing.
\n\nSo we use nighttime, you know, day, night, rain or shine. So that's why we're robot-agnostic and welcome the latest and greatest designers and developers of hardware. We've got some folks that are just totally focused on designing, and developing, and building awesome autonomous robotic mowers with solar panels or great things that are going out there. And we're the software platform that brings it all together.
\n\nCHAD: I totally get what you're saying about the progress of hardware and wanting to be in the business of creating value on top of that. How do you make sure that you don't take on the business risk of one of the manufacturers just providing the solution that you're providing?
\n\nNEIL: Chad, we don't look at a business risk if there's a manufacturer that's going and selling autonomous robotic mowers. We welcome that, in fact, because that helps us with the adoption process.
\n\nThe idea of having, you know, Roomba is the de facto vacuum cleaner that goes randomly in your house. But there are half a dozen other hardware devices and opportunities, and they're all selling it. It's really how are you managing that Roomba? Which is also the subscription component of the Netflix part of our business, which is that Roomba may be a shark next year. It may be something else the following year.
\n\nFor our customers, we select the best hardware for their particular property, whether it's a golf course. They may have an autonomous robot that's manufactured by XYZ for the tee box and another one for the fairway, and another one for the greens. They just pay a monthly subscription for access to the software to manage those particular hardware pieces and optimize that hardware. And that's something that Matt will talk a little bit about.
\n\nBut we really have taken the approach that robots are just like cars. They'll sit in your garage 20 hours out of the week, but they're actually effectively useful 168 hours a week. So how do we maximize that and utilize the hardware itself? And that's what our software does. And of course, with that, we share that information with our customers and our users to continue to make it more efficient.
\n\nCHAD: Thanks, Neil. Matt, what does the software stack actually look like that you're all putting together?
\n\nMATT: So we got to talk about the technology so Laravel, PHP, MySQL. We host in DigitalOcean. And we have a WordPress front end, but the back end is all Laravel PHP.
\n\nCHAD: And so it's in the cloud for all the customers?
\n\nMATT: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: And then how do you communicate with the fleet?
\n\nMATT: So we connect through APIs. The hardware generally has an API that can give us status updates at various intervals. So we aggregate that information back. And then, we present a web-based solution dashboard that includes different views.
\n\nWe can get into the different users and how we've tried to meet their needs and drive workflow for them. But at a high level, we've got some graphical dashboards. And we also have some very tactical workflows for the guys. We call them shepherds taking care of our goats on the ground.
\n\nCHAD: I know that you said it's autonomous, but how do you communicate with the robots when you need to? Is it radio frequency locally, or is it cell phones?
\n\nMATT: So the robots actually come with…they have both GPS and cellular connectivity. So we have pretty good real-time connectivity with the robots. So we can remotely control them. We can park them, or we can send them back to their charging stations, different features like that. You can adjust cutting height, things like that, remotely. We also use just text messaging, SMS for communicating with shepherds. It's kind of real-time feedback.
\n\nSo yeah, let me dig in a little bit, the autonomous idea of the robot. Yeah, we want them to be autonomous. And we work with our shepherds, groundskeepers so that each of the goats works in a pen, an area defined by that in the ground kind of like an invisible fence dog wire type thing.
\n\nBut basically, we work with the shepherds, and we have this training certification process. But basically, they can get that pen to an area where really what we shoot for about 72 hours of the robot should be able to operate autonomously within that pen for about three and a half days.
\n\nAnd then shepherds will be instructed to move that robot to another pen for about three and a half days. Usually, one robot is taking care of…it ends up being about two and a half days. And that's kind of the way the software solution is driving that efficiency of people time as well as robot time.
\n\nThe robots can mow 24/7. They take care of the grass. They maintain it, as Neil mentioned earlier. So it's not throw the robot out once a week kind of thing. You have to change your thinking. A lot of what we deal with when we go to a robot solution over that traditional status quo mowing we really have to help people through that thought process of this is not how it used to be. It works differently. But yep, that's kind of the solution.
\n\nCHAD: I feel like I need to ask, even though it's going to be a little bit of a tangent.
\n\nMATT: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: How did you arrive at the name of My Goat and take the leap on a quirky name like that?
\n\nNEIL: Yeah, it's a great question. [laughs] First of all, I think that I first saw one of these robots through a YouTube video about three and a half or four years ago. And you may or may not know this, Chad, but there are about 3 million of these things that have been sold since 1995. So this is not bleeding edge technology in any way, shape, or form.
\n\nWhen I saw it on a YouTube video, it just kind of hit me that wow, these things are out there doing their thing day or night, rain or shine. And interestingly enough, the market, I guess the landscape market, the residential side, was somewhere in the neighborhood of $65 to $80 billion that we were targeting and looking at.
\n\nAnd as far as the goats, I had talked to some early folks who were marketing folks, and we just settled on Goat. And then we put my on the front end of it. And before we knew it, we had My Goat. And as we've evolved from just a cool robot-centric organization that's using software, we've evolved into an organization that's really teaching shepherds how to become interactive with the goats. And it's taken a life of its own. The blades are called teeth.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nNEIL: And those are some of our…of course, the goats need to be brushed. They don't get washed, or they don't get sprayed down with water, but they get brushed. And there's the whole the operating system is the heart and all kinds of stuff that's been going on.
\n\nCHAD: Well, I feel like with a name like My Goat, if you're not going to commit and carry that branding through to everything, what's the point?
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nNEIL: Right. Yes, it has taken a life of its own. And it's interesting. I don't know that it's the most catchy name for a software technology company. But it's certainly gotten some folks' attention, and it's helped. Let's put it this way: our marketing team really enjoys everything about what they can do with it.
\n\nCHAD: Well, and there's something to having a brand and carrying that through in the naming that causes ideas to resonate with people and makes them special. At the end of the day, you're mowing lawns. And so making it special and communicating that you have something special, I think, is something that people can do regardless of what their product is thinking of ways of doing that.
\n\nNEIL: Yeah. And I would add that I think the only pushback we've received on the name is probably from some of our high-end golf course users and prospects who don't want to turn their golf course into a goat track, so to speak.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nNEIL: But that's probably the extent of it. But overall, it's been well received without a doubt. And as we're focused on the software component of interacting with autonomous robots, our software development mentality and our vision is that it may be the same thing applied to 500 Roombas inside of a million square feet at a fulfillment center for Under Armour.
\n\nAnd instead of having 50 people cleaning the floors, you may have five people managing 500. And how do they do that effectively and efficiently? So there's really a business-focused component of the vision that I've had for the business. And that's helped me, along with many others, to get us to where we are.
\n\nMATT: I'm just going to jump in. You're right; the name sticks and people really adopt to the shepherd mentality. We get a lot of requests for shepherd crooks. [laughs] They all want a shepherd staff.
\n\nCHAD: So along those lines, when people are considering working with you, what are some of the questions or concerns that they have about a solution?
\n\nNEIL: Sure. So it's disruptive, Chad. I think I could probably start by saying the traditional way of maintaining or mowing commercial properties is that you have a big guy and a big machine, and how fast does it go? How much noise does it make? How many grass clippings get blown all over the place? You get in, and you get out. And then you start over.
\n\nSo in the state of Tennessee, where we are here, it's about 34 to 36 weeks of mowing a year. In Michigan, it's 17 to 22 weeks, depending on where you are. In South Florida, believe it or not, I know there are only 52 weeks, but they're mowing 56 to 58 times a year. So it's the frequency of going and mowing and blowing, right?
\n\nCHAD: Mm-hmm.
\n\nNEIL: We're changing that by saying, why be worried about the weather? Why would you be worried about darkness? Why would you be worried about noise regulations when you can have the grass maintained all the time?
\n\nSo that mentality of maintaining essentially two football fields a week up to three football fields a week with less than 35 minutes of labor. There is nothing in comparison. There's nothing you can compare with the traditional what we call the status quo to make that happen.
\n\nSo the labor efficiency and improvement in labor productivity is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the cost savings and the financial payback. So because we are so disruptive, a lot of what we do, and a lot of the time we spend, and one of our core values is being educators.
\n\nSo back to your question about manufacturers selling their own proprietary hardware; absolutely, the more the merrier. We welcome. To me, the sign of success and progress is not the small city block that has one gas station but has four gas stations on the corner. It just now means there are cars that are driving around. And so, I embrace that level of competition. I believe iron sharpens iron.
\n\nAnd folks who are traditionally in the landscape space who have made trimmers and blowers and chainsaws are now finding a little bit of competition with folks who are now solely focused on making unbelievably efficient autonomous robotic mowers, or cleaners, or robots in general, which is, again, we're not crashing giant robots although that's the name of your podcast. [laughter] We're not trying to crash them or break them. But it is certainly the foundation for where we are.
\n\nMATT: Hey, Neil, you've got a good analogy. I think analogies help explain concepts. So you want to run through your airport analogy with the runways and the different airlines?
\n\nNEIL: Yeah, I could share that with you. Thanks for reminding me. So my philosophy about…we sell subscriptions that are based upon a geography, Chad.
\n\nCHAD: Size of geography, you mean?
\n\nNEIL: Yeah, the size of the geography. So it's about a football field, give or take. Based upon some limitations with technology, we put invisible dog fences in the ground, and we charge our users, our subscribers by the particular pen or the number of pens, and then there's a ratio.
\n\nSo much like in an airport, we're not selling flights; we're selling runways. And those runways are accessible by all kinds of…you may have 30 terminals at the gates, and you may have five different airlines. And each of those airlines has a different brand and name, but they're using multiple hardware components. Those jets are maybe McDonnell Douglas, or maybe they're a Boeing or whatever it may be. All of that is fine by us.
\n\nWhat we do is we have the software that runs the gates, the terminals. So you have Southwest in terminal two and Delta in terminal 32. And they're using our software to figure out how to get the baggage on the planes and get those planes off the ground so they can make money for their businesses. So we look at it that way.
\n\nAnd that's kind of where our IP rests is in that spot in that place. And, again, there'll be other airlines, whether it's Allegiant or whomever buying more Boeing planes. But ultimately, they'll all need a runway, and the software that manages the process and the workflow is what we're focused on.
\n\nCHAD: So, is the total cost of ownership of autonomous solution typically lower than what they are doing today?
\n\nNEIL: It is, specifically, the labor improvement is generally about 3x in terms of improving the efficiency of the labor. So if you talk about an average groundskeeper who may be responsible for mowing, if it's a perfect day outside mowing nine acres a day and they are out there five days a week, they may have efficiencies of maybe up to 40 or 45 acres a week. With our solution, that is increased to about 135 to 145 acres a week where they can maintain about 70 mowers, 70 autonomous robotic mowers, or 70 goats as we call them. They'll herd 70 goats with the same full-time employee. So that's one aspect.
\n\nWith that, the immediate reaction is, well, you're eliminating jobs. We're actually redeploying jobs. I'm a builder. I'm a job creator. I've had 4,800 folks work for me in my home care business over the last 12 years. And so, I'm a big believer in improving and deploying folks in areas that we don't have robots.
\n\nSo, for example, there's no robot right now that's pruning trees or making up a sand trap, robots that are planting flowers or putting mulch in a flower bed. So those kinds of jobs are still out there. We're just making the traditional idea of throwing somebody on a mower in the middle of a cemetery or golf course or open space and having them manage that through our software platform sitting in their F150 pushing start and stop or pause and doing other things.
\n\nCHAD: Instead of riding on the mower.
\n\nNEIL: You got it.
\n\nMATT: A lot of our potential customers come to us because (we kind of touched on that) there's a labor shortage. It's hard for folks to find people that want to ride zero-turns. So to Neil's point, we're not about deploying robots, kind of one for one replacing jobs. It's basically we're taking the labor force that we can get, that we have, and we're retraining them to be more efficient through these robots. Pretty age-old story when you're talking about industrialization.
\n\nBut the idea is we haven't displaced workers. They're not hiring fewer people. They're taking everybody they can get. And they're doing all of that value add. The groundskeepers now have time to go out and do the mulching and the landscaping, trimming, improving the property.
\n\nA lot of these groundskeepers have a lot of pride in their property. And they would rather be doing the items that to them are a value add and beautification projects rather than just riding a Back 40 or a zero-turn. We had one shepherd say, hey, it's really helped his back. Riding a lawnmower is kind of rough. And walking around every now and then helping out a robot is a whole lot easier of a physical life for you.
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\n\nCHAD: So I saw on the website because of the kind of solution and the scale that it's at, it seems like you have a few different key customer bases. You want to talk about that and whether you knew that going in, or did you find them along the way?
\n\nNEIL: Yeah, that's a great question. So we came out of the gate initially with early investors. We were focused on what we considered was the low-hanging fruit in the residential space. So we had designed and developed the operational and financial template to actually have shepherds who were employees of My Goat. And we would have the Goats sold in a subscription model to residential customers. And then we'd have the goat stay on a property and then get moved, et cetera.
\n\nBut we learned very quickly that business to consumer and residential customers it's not that impossible; it just was not as low-hanging fruit as we had thought initially because folks leave rakes in the yard. And anytime a goat comes upon a rake, it's going to get trapped, and therefore it needs to be rescued. And you have to send a shepherd out, et cetera. Or somebody decides to put a new vegetable garden, and they break the wire that's in the ground. They're just a bunch of…, or there's a dog chasing the robot or a little kid out there, or somebody stops it. So those required a lot of…it didn't make the robot autonomous.
\n\nSo we pivoted in late 2019, early 2020 into the commercial space. We expired all of our subscriptions to residential customers and went completely into the commercial space. And we had had some success with some golf courses and some cemeteries. And we've gained a lot more momentum now with cities and counties, regional airports. But large open areas that are a minimum of five acres, typically we would run a pilot or a preview with at least 12 to 14 acres.
\n\nBut the biggest restriction, of course, when you get into those large open areas is electricity because they've been traditionally maintained or mowed by gas-powered machines. So back to your other question about where the savings is and the payback period, and how we have an immediate impact. There's an operational savings that is pretty quick in terms of the return because we flatten out a lot of the ups and downs that a traditional landscaper has.
\n\nSo let's take a golf course, for example. The average golf course spends about $80,000 per hole per year and depending on the course, 45% to 60% of that is spent on mowing, mowing machines, and people involved. And we're able to take that, and they're hiring temporary people in March here in the south, and they have them here until October. So they're having to go through that cycle every single year.
\n\nSo if they can flatten that operational expense out by redesigning the golf course and having…and maybe it's not 100%. Much like a Roomba, you still have to get the corners and the edges, maybe with a broom if it doesn't get into every nook and cranny. So it's not a 100% solution. It's not for every application.
\n\nBut as we moved into the commercial space, we found a greater payback period not only on the cost of the gasoline is...you know, take a zero-turn mower. And again, I say that's probably our greatest competitor is institutionalized thinking to say, this year we're going to buy a big green, big red, or big orange machine for $16,000 or $18,000, Kubota, Toro, or John Deere. And we're going to do the same thing we did last year. We're going to find a guy who can operate it. We're going to put gas in it, and we're going to run it around.
\n\nWell, you put hours in those things, and they're very costly to maintain if you hit a root. So you've got to make sure that you can't run a 1,800-pound mower when it's been raining for three days. So what do you do with a fairway when it's soggy or any other commercial area that could be…or a hill that could be dangerous. So we've found a lot of application and then, of course, the environmental part of it, Chad.
\n\nSo the average zero-turn emits the equivalent of a carbon footprint every hour it's running about 300 miles of a Toyota Camry running. So they haven't become more efficient. And then you've got noise regulations and so forth in a lot of communities.
\n\nAnd even in California, they're moving in the direction of I think it's 2024 where gas-powered and oil-powered landscaping blowers and tremors, et cetera, are not going to be allowed, or you'll be fined for using them. So that's the third component of where My Goat has seen some opportunities in the commercial space.
\n\nCHAD: You mentioned that they can run at night. So they must be quiet. They must be.
\n\nNEIL: Yes, they are. And it's not the traditional…you're not making as much of a mess. Some of our cemetery customers have mentioned that the fact that their trimming has been reduced by up to 50% because they're going up and over markers because they only weigh 27 pounds. They're mostly plastic and rubber. They're not doing any damage to vases. So they're having a cost reduction in that regard but also with the uprights.
\n\nFolks have their family members in a particular private estate area where they may have an upright, and if you have a zero-turn mower out there throwing and splashing grass clippings, you're likely having to go out there again with more labor and take a blower and clean up the mess that the mower made. So these little small operational components along with the experience.
\n\nAgain, back to the cemetery, you're asking about why we're there. We know that industry very well. And we know that the experience that loved ones want to have when they're out there celebrating life and grieving across a 40 or 50-acre property. They don't want to hear a zero-turn.
\n\nSo you're turning those things off three or four times a day for those services, and you're having that individual parked a quarter-mile away. No longer is that an operational challenge or a concern because all of these robots are being controlled, start, stopped, and programmed through our software.
\n\nCHAD: That's really cool. So you mentioned investors and the early pivot away from residential to commercial. What does your funding story look like? And what phase did you get to when you took on investment? And let's start there. How did you find your initial investors? And what phase were you at when you did that?
\n\nNEIL: Yeah, that's a great question. So we went through the traditional friends and family and moved into an angel round, but really I started my first company…bootstrapped it. And so, I wasn't really proficient in raising money in the traditional sense. I had an idea, put a business plan together.
\n\nAnd I talked to a couple of folks and just told the story. To be honest with you, Chad, I wasn't really asking for money. I was more or less asking for advice. And then a number of folks were like, "Are you taking money? I'd like to take an equity position." And so, we structured the business and the shares on a pre-revenue valuation. And then, within 14 months, we were able to double that valuation.
\n\nAnd we're now opening a new round here and a Series A with a valuation that's nearly five times our initial valuation. So we're making a lot of progress because we have, again, it's an annual recurring revenue stream. It's a subscription model.
\n\nAnd what we did with our investors in the early rounds is many of them came on, and they just wanted to be silent. They were not interested in having an opinion. They wanted me and my team to run it. So that's been very helpful. So that's where we are in 2022. We'll be opening and closing a Series A. And I certainly can get more specific with others about that if your listeners or audience are interested.
\n\nCHAD: So when you think about a Series A, what will you be using that for? What are your next scaling goals?
\n\nNEIL: My commitment to my investors in the previous two rounds has been to sales and technology, so sales, business development, and technology enhancement to the software, so hiring more developers, scaling that team. Matt's leading the vision, and we've got a number of other folks who are involved in the user experience. But again, because we're a software company, it starts with a demonstration that's usually 15 or 20 minutes that can be scheduled through our website at mygoat.co. And it goes from there.
\n\nOn the sales side and business development is telling the story. In those verticals, we're interested in building out potentially even reseller markets with other industries that are aligned with us. We've had some very high-level conversations with folks that sell electricity for a living. The Tennessee Valley Authority we became an early preferred partner with them and because they have carbon credit that they can offer and sell to their customers, their local power companies. And they're in the business of selling power. And we're in the business of providing subscriptions that require power.
\n\nCHAD: What are some barriers to continuing to scale? Do you have geographic barriers?
\n\nNEIL: I have self-imposed geographic barriers, [laughter]
\n\nSo it's a Neil Amrhein barrier. But overall, our barriers, our challenges really are; I’ve never heard of these things before. Do they actually mow? So we get through those conversations fairly quickly. But depending on who we're talking to, it also becomes a fear. People fear change and especially things that are disruptive.
\n\nSo our barriers, once we get through the fear, is we don't have any electricity here on this golf course, or this city park, or this regional airport that there is unlimited electricity. So we can pull whatever electricity is necessary there. So it is really the barriers of education, just like anything that's truly disruptive in an industry that's been doing the same thing for 45 or 50 years.
\n\nCHAD: So you already talked about how you view potential competition from manufacturers, but how do you view competition in general? Is there other competition out there?
\n\nNEIL: The biggest competition we have is institutionalized thinking, which is doing the same thing we did last year. So that's a battle that we have every day. I like competition because I think it makes the end product, and the customer is the one who benefits the most from having lots of people in the market no matter what their angle is.
\n\nWe like our position because, again, we're not the hardware manufacturer. We're able to work with others. We're the financial advisor that gets to work with the insurance guy and everybody else, where all your money is with your college buddy who's managing it, et cetera. We're agnostic. We're putting it all together. So it benefits everybody.
\n\nAnd those who make and manufacture these robots get the benefit as well because it's part of the subscription process as far as that's concerned. But the more, the merrier. A lot of people come to me and say, "Well, I saw an autonomous robotic mower out on this lawn or in the neighborhood here." And that's good for us.
\n\nCHAD: Matt, I assume that being robot-agnostic means that you need to integrate with the different systems. Does that have challenges?
\n\nMATT: You know, not really. Robots are, as far as the autonomous robotic lawn mowers, they're pretty much telling us the same thing. There are status updates; there are battery updates; there are GPS coordinates. It does tend to be a pretty common data set that we're seeing. So it's been a lot easier than I thought. When you think about…data integrations are always the top challenge you have. It's worked out a lot better than we thought initially.
\n\nCHAD: Well, that's great. Has there been anything surprising the other way which was something you thought was going to be easy turned out to be a lot harder?
\n\nMATT: Yeah. We've had a manufacturer that actually had a tiered concept in their data availability. They weren't giving us all of the data that they had. They were saving it because they were running their own kind of hey, you can use home automation techniques to integrate with your residential autonomous robotic lawnmower. Hey, if it's raining at your house, we could park your robot. So they were kind of hiding some of the API from us. We were able to work through that.
\n\nBut I think that goes to one of your questions about concern around competition from the manufacturers. They're really not looking at this from that niche that we're hitting, that commercial perspective.
\n\nMaintaining one Roomba in your house is the analogy I use. You kind of know where he gets stuck, and you go find him. And that's okay. You don't need a lot of software for that. But that analogy Neil mentioned, if you have 500 of these guys running around a warehouse, or for us, we have property with 50 robots on. How do you know which one right now --
\n\nCHAD: And the space that that takes up.
\n\nMATT: Right. Right.
\n\nCHAD: You can't see them all necessarily even.
\n\nMATT: [laughs] Exactly. You can't. You can't just walk around and see everyone and visually check. You need that software to be efficient to know; oh, there are three things I need to do today with the robots. Let me plan that out, and let me take care of it.
\n\nSo I think, like Neil said, the manufacturers out there they're making lawn equipment. They're making lots of different hardware. And to them, fleet management is really where is my hardware right now? [laughs] That's the extent of it. And they can't think about a property that needs maybe two or three different manufacturers of hardware because properties are not one homogeneous set of type of grass. There are always different needs, different features on that property. So there's always that idea that we're going to need a couple of different manufacturers, maybe.
\n\nSo, yeah, it's really interesting. For me, I think it's we're really hitting a home run in an area that there really aren't any other competitors exactly in our niche. And if there are, I think the industry for us what we do is at a place where we need more adoption out there in the world. [crosstalk 34:03]
\n\nCHAD: Do you ever hear from early adopters? People who say they've either already bought autonomous mowers and they're struggling to manage them, or they really want to, and they're coming to you to do it?
\n\nNEIL: That's a great point. I have a couple of thoughts here because you guys are going in a lot of different directions here.
\n\nMATT: [laughs]
\n\nNEIL: Chad, the short answer is when people buy anything early on, they're going to have the proverbial challenges of who supports it when it breaks? Who do I call? What happens next? It just goes on and on and on, whether it's a hardware platform, and that's mostly the case, or it's something else. It's what does that support look like?
\n\nSo the early adopters when we talk about their experiences, and this is one of the things I would say is probably our biggest challenge is that we have created a learning management software platform, a video library of how do you work with robots? We know that they're going to get trapped.
\n\nThere is no doubt that a 27-pound autonomous goat if there is a lightning strike like there was here in Nashville last night, they're going to be tree limbs that are down. And there'll be goats that are trapped. And it's going to take a human being, a shepherd, to be notified via SMS alert to proactively go to that spot on that property across 50 or 100 acres and rescue that goat. And it's just a matter of these kinds of things happen environmentally.
\n\nSo we talk about, when we talk to customers, about their utilization of the goat. And we talk about optimizing their property. It's not really that the goat doesn't graze or the robot doesn't work. It's what are the restrictions and the environmental challenges that are in front of it? If there are erosion issues around a marker or in a large open field, and if it's a really well-groomed practice field or intramural field, it's likely going to be aerated. It's going to be very flat, et cetera. But most commercial properties are not that way.
\n\nSo the goats actually have a tendency to go out, and they're going to find all those environmental challenges. And it requires a human being to go out there and fix them. Because if the environmental challenge is that there's a hole and on a horse farm, it's going to be there until somebody throws some dirt in it. It's just the reality. And that goat is going to find that environmental challenge every single time. So there is a learning curve that goes with it. There's a level of patience.
\n\nAnd I think you mentioned what's our challenge? Our challenge is letting folks know that it's an evolution, not a revolution, as far as what your property is going to look like. I spent a number of years at the Ritz Carlton Hotel Company, and we talk about property health as is it a two-star property, a three-star property, four-star property, five-star property?
\n\nWe recognize that a lot of commercial properties are going to just be a two-star. But potentially, they could be a three-star property. Or if it's a cemetery and you've got a goat that's maybe found environmental challenges on a cemetery, it also becomes a liability or risk for family members who go visit their loved ones.
\n\nSo now we're using the robot proactively to improve the status of the property as opposed to saying, well, it just gets trapped every time it finds a hole or every time there's a situation that goes on. So it does require an active level of engagement and maintenance. And the philosophy has to be changed so that groundskeepers are now checking their phones or being alerted at 7:15 in the morning. And they may go rescue Billy, the goat, because a lot of folks name their robots. [laughter]
\n\nThey're going out there, and they're in pen 34,27, 31. And then at lunchtime, they may have another two or three of the same goats that were trapped, need to be rescued, and then again at 4:00 o'clock in the afternoon. So it's a maintenance mentality as opposed to a mow and go mentality. So that is philosophically a big change in terms of their mindset.
\n\nCHAD: So what's next for My Goat then? You mentioned the Series A. Is there anything in particular on your radar that you're either worried about or are looking forward to?
\n\nNEIL: Looking forward to more folks like your audience and listeners hearing our story. I'm in the business of telling our story. And I welcome, again, the competition because that means there's validation for what's going on. I don't think we're going to stuff this genie back in the bottle, so to speak.
\n\nIt's going to be hard for me to believe that five, six years from now, folks are going to be out there firing up a push mower that they just bought at Lowe's when they can buy something at Lowe's that's $250 for a residential robot that they get to use.
\n\nSame thing on the commercial space. I don't know what it ultimately looks like from a vision perspective. But I think our challenge is continuing the messaging, the adoption, enhancing the payback period. It is really just like any good technology, artificial intelligence, robotics, et cetera. I mean, that combination.
\n\nI hold the position, Chad, that I don't really think any technology is being developed or new per se since the invention of the internet. It's the application of the technology. It's what are people doing that they weren't doing before?
\n\nWe have the communication tools with 5G or what have you that we didn't have five or six years ago that we can now ping our goats every 15 minutes and find out what their status is. And then we can report that back to the user and say, "Hey, your optimization or utilization on your hardware and your subscription is X, Y, and Z. And your return on investment is six months to 16 months." That's where I think it elevates the conversation of efficiency and changes the game.
\n\nSo our next steps are continuing to get the message out, embrace not only users but industries we haven't thought about. I mentioned horse farms that just came on my radar screen not too long ago. We've had some success with cities and counties. You can imagine…everything one of our core values is green is good, and time is a number.
\n\nSo you just drive down the interstate, and you can see so much green everywhere as far as opportunities ahead. And there's plenty of room for lots of people to play in this space. We welcome more and more of probably the designers and developers that you got on this podcast to come up with the latest and greatest hardware and make those APIs available for Matt and his team to integrate and continue to grow.
\n\nCHAD: That's great. If folks want to reach out to you to either learn more or see if you can work together, where are the best places for them to do that?
\n\nNEIL: Sure. Let me first direct them to www.mygoat.co. And there are a series of areas there where it's either click on a demo now or information. Our phone number is listed there as well.
\n\nI'll also give you my email address, which is Neil, N-E-I-L neil@mygoat.co, so neil@mygoat.co. And Matt's is just matt@mygoat.co as well. And those are probably the fastest way to connect with us. And if they put in a quick subject line your name and your podcast, it'll bubble everybody to the top a little faster.
\n\nCHAD: Wonderful. Thank you both for joining me. I really appreciate it.
\n\nMATT: Absolutely. Thank you, Chad.
\n\nNEIL: Thank you for having us.
\n\nCHAD: And I wish you all the best.
\n\nYou can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
\n\nAnnouncer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guests: Matthew Erickson and Neal Amrhein.
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Joe Ferris is thoughtbot's CTO and Managing Director of the thoughtbot DevOps and maintenance team known as Mission Control. Mission Control is our newest team doing DevOps Support, Maintenance, and SRE (Site Reliability Engineering). The goal of Mission Control, rather than building products or pairing with team members to improve their team like the rest of thoughtbot, is to support those teams and support other client teams in deploying and scaling applications. They have an on-call team and do more complex cloud build-outs with the goal being to empower and educate the teams that we work with so that they are more capable of working in those ecosystems on their own.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Joe Ferris, thoughtbot's CTO and Managing Director of the thoughtbot DevOps and maintenance team known as Mission Control. Joe, welcome back to the show.
\n\nJOE: Thanks, Chad. It's been a while.
\n\nCHAD: It has been a while. I think you were the first-ever guest, if I'm not mistaken.
\n\nJOE: I believe that's right. We talked about null, I think.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. And it would have been with Ben back when I was just a listener and maybe producer. So welcome back to the show. It's been a long time, and a lot has changed at thoughtbot over the years. I've been talking to each of the managing directors of the new teams, and I wanted to be sure to have you on. Why don't we take a little bit of a step back and talk about Mission Control? When we say DevOps and maintenance, what do we mean? And what does Mission Control do?
\n\nJOE: Sure. Mission Control is our newest team doing DevOps support, and maintenance, and SRE. It came out of our experiments with DevOps a while ago now, almost two years coming up. Historically, thoughtbot has shied away from getting too much into DevOps. I think a lot of us had some unpleasant experiences earlier in our career around sysadmin tasks and expectations there. Not a lot of people have wanted to be on call historically.
\n\nSo we've heavily leveraged services like Heroku that take a lot of that burden away from you and avoided doing things like direct to AWS deployments or getting too involved with CI/CD pipelines that were particularly complex. But we've had clients over the years that have requested more interesting or more difficult deployments.
\n\nAnd finally, we had one a couple of years ago, where we said, "All alright, let's just handle this instead of saying no or trying to outsource it." We thought it made sense for them. And after going through it, we came to the conclusion that it was actually pretty good that the ecosystem had evolved a lot and that it was a service worth offering. That began our journey into DevOps, so to speak. So we did some smart DevOps work for a variety of clients over the next year or so before we decided to form an official team doing this new kind of work, which is how we ended up with Mission control.
\n\nThe goal of Mission Control, rather than building products or pairing with team members to improve their team like the rest of thoughtbot, the goal of Mission Control is to support those teams and support other client teams in deploying and scaling their applications. And we have an on-call team. We will do more complex cloud build-outs. And our goal is to empower and educate the teams that we work with so that they are more capable of working in those ecosystems on their own.
\n\nCHAD: You used the acronym SRE earlier in that little spiel. I'm not sure that everyone knows what that is. [laughs] So it stands for Site Reliability Engineer, right?
\n\nJOE: That's right. And that's been newer for us. So DevOps is supposed to be the fusion of development and operations. But the operations world is really big. So similar to how everybody has problems getting people to be full-stack enough given the complexity of front end and back end, we have similar problems in design.
\n\nWe also have that problem in DevOps where both development and operations are huge, rich ecosystems. And so, having developers that are fully experienced at both is hard. So the path of least resistance, when you say are doing DevOps, is definitely just to do operations. And it's been a struggle for us to actually break down those silos and have teams work more on the operation side on their own.
\n\nSo one of the things that caught our eye with SRE was some of the built-in mechanisms for engaging with the team. The one-sentence pitch for SRE is that it is operations if you approach it like a software problem. It has these concepts of SLOs, Service Level Objectives, and error budgets, which is the amount of time you spent violating your SLO. And part of the process is getting buy-in from the entire team, from the stakeholders down to the developers and the operations team. And so, it provides a natural interaction point between the operations folks and the rest of the team because nobody wants to break the error budget. Once the error budget is exhausted, everybody has to stop building new features and focus on stability until the error budget is cut up again.
\n\nSo rather than having this unpleasant give or take where we're more coming from the operations side, and we're always pushing for more stability, and everybody else is coming from the product side, and they're always pushing for more features, SRE gives you this useful metric to have that conversation around where we're not always just pushing for more. We're trying to hit a specific goal that we've agreed on. And when we hit the goal, we know that we can keep full throttle moving out new features.
\n\nCHAD: Now, is the SRE a developer who is also working on resolving errors before the budget is hit?
\n\nJOE: Yeah, a Site Reliability Engineer is a developer. But that's actually not too different from other forms of DevOps. DevOps is supposed to be developers in general. When I say we built an operations team, even if you look at the work that we're doing, a lot of it is development work. We build scripts, and automations, and so on. We don't manually set up EC2 instances, and not everything is toil, even outside of SRE.
\n\nBut the idea in SRE is that somebody will be more integrated with the development team and make changes to not just the operational stack but also the development stack in service of reliability. I've heard it said that SRE is a particular implementation of DevOps. That makes sense to me.
\n\nCHAD: Let's start back in the beginning because you made reference to the fact that historically, a lot of what we deploy was deployed to Heroku. And we did that because, for a lot of the applications that we're building, it made sense. It minimized the operational overhead of deployments. There is a point in some systems that you cross a line. Where do we see that line typically being where you need to start looking at something else?
\n\nJOE: I think there can be a few different instigating factors. One of the fastest ways for somebody to want to move to AWS is if they have significant security concerns, particularly for healthcare applications. The security model is more straightforward in AWS to have better isolation. There are options on Heroku, but it requires going to a different Heroku platform using Shield. And you just don't get the same power you get in terms of network isolation models you get on AWS with your own VPC.
\n\nSo if you're already at the point where you want to start out with a VPC out of the gate and do that kind of isolation, my opinion is you may as well own it and go to AWS. So that's one reason. Another is if you start hitting scaling issues, Heroku is easier for the developers because it's simple and it's very streamlined. But doing complex deployments is difficult, which eliminates some of the options available to somebody doing something like SRE.
\n\nSo to give one example, one mechanism people can use to make it safer to deploy without potentially introducing bugs or performance degradations is a canary release where when you release, you put the new version out as the canary build. And you route maybe 5% of traffic to that, and you actually collect metrics on performance and error rates on the canary traffic versus the regular traffic.
\n\nAnd then you have some period where you're in experiment mode, which varies depending on the level of stability you're looking to achieve. Once you're confident that the canary release didn't introduce a regression, then it gets promoted to the stable build, and you do that every time you deploy. I have no idea how you would do that on Heroku.
\n\nCHAD: I think you'd have to do it at the application level. You'd have to do it with a feature flag system. And it would only be possible to do some of the things that you would be able to do if you're able to do the whole system.
\n\nJOE: Right. And I guess you could do weighted random numbers to try and decide whether to canary or not. But one of the benefits of doing it outside the application is there's no way to make a mistake. So, for example, if you introduced a bug in your canary mechanism in the application or you forget to put it behind a feature flag, then you've now deployed to production, and you have an error. Whereas if it's managed by the CI/CD pipeline, you're just deploying a new version of the application. In Heroku land, that would mean you deploy the new slug as a canary build. In most other areas, it means you're deploying a container image.
\n\nThat's one example of why if you get to the point that you have a lot of traffic in production and you need to manage that traffic while continuing to release features, it can be helpful to work on a platform like AWS where you have a lot more deployment options.
\n\nAnother one is that SRE is heavily built on observability and metrics, which can be difficult to collect on Heroku. Some of that is just a matter of lineage. Like, the SRE community was built up around tools like Prometheus that are scrape-based. That means you need to have a special metrics endpoint exposed on all of your containers.
\n\nIn Heroku, there isn't a way to access any of your dynos directly except through the web router, and you can't control which one you get. So using Prometheus on Heroku is not really practical, which means you need to re-implement what everybody else has built for SRE using a different observability tool.
\n\nAnd observability out of the box on Heroku it's easy to get set up, but it's more limited. So doing something like complex SLOs and setting up error budget dashboards and alerting is going to be a significant task. Versus on a platform like Kubernetes where it doesn't sound like it'll be easier, but it is because there are open-source tools that you can just deploy.
\n\nCHAD: You mentioned Kubernetes. It's probably worth calling out that that's pretty much what we are using across the board, right?
\n\nJOE: For our AWS and other cloud deployments, we have standardized largely on Kubernetes. We started out using simpler containerization platforms like ECS on AWS. But what we found is that the developer tooling is generally not particularly good because there's not enough community momentum behind any of those. And the open-source is limited versus something like Kubernetes there's a massive open-source community.
\n\nThere is a ton of different tooling that people build that's available for developers and for DevOps. And for these things like SRE, you can use almost entirely open-source software to build out all of the interesting parts of that and deploy that. So what we've been building is basically an SRE Platform as a Service where we collect these open-source components. We deploy them to a managed Kubernetes cluster. And then, applications can immediately start exposing metrics to Prometheus and defining SLOs.
\n\nCHAD: So much in the same way where we talked about some of the boundaries where it starts to make sense to not be on Heroku, what are some of the boundaries that teams hit where it makes sense to start thinking about SRE or even just having someone on the team that's focused on that kind of work?
\n\nJOE: I think as soon as people start hitting their first scaling challenges. So for an MVP where you're validating a product where you don't actually have production traffic yet, I don't think it makes sense. And I also think I would avoid deploying to something like Kubernetes if you can help it for an MVP.
\n\nBut for anybody who has scaling concerns, SRE is a very useful mindset. And the sooner you start adopting it, the sooner you'll start to build an application that's made to scale. It can be very difficult to put out those fires while something is not on a platform where you have many options, and nobody has been thinking about observability. It means that you need to be guessing at how to put out the fire as well as simultaneously introducing metrics and potentially planning a cloud migration.
\n\nSo I think as soon as you start feeling nervous about deploying to production or as soon as you notice that you're spending a lot of time working on performance, it makes sense to bring in SRE. I also think anybody that needs to provide an SLA should for sure implement SRE. It can be used to measure whether or not you're on track to hit an SLA because you basically set SLOs that are stricter than your SLA, and you make sure that you meet it.
\n\nCHAD: Is there a way that existing teams can layer on some of the SRE activities without having full-time SRE people?
\n\nJOE: I think you can have a team member who does development that also acts as the SRE. If you have a small team, I could see the commitment to it being daunting. I think that could be one good reason to bring in outside specialists if you're not at the point where you can afford to have a full-time SRE in-house. Working with a team that can provide an SRE on-demand like Mission Control could be valuable.
\n\nCHAD: I didn't realize that that was going to be a perfect segue into part of the value proposition of Mission Control [laughter] when I asked the question. But I guess that's a really good point. That is part of what we're helping people do is monthly contracts that provide this to them, even if their team can't do it 100% of the time.
\n\nJOE: Right, except for pretty large teams. I don't think it makes sense for them to hire a full-time SRE. It's much easier to work with a team like ours that has the experience and has more than one person. Even if you do hire a full-time SRE, you will only have one. So if they go on vacation, or if they get sick, or if it's in the middle of the night, then do you still have an SRE? I think that's one of the benefits of working with a team.
\n\nCHAD: And that's been interesting with Mission Control because we introduced Mission Control and made it a formal thing at the same time as going entirely remote. And it's interesting how doing that freed us up in terms of being able to commit to building a different kind of team.
\n\nIt doesn't necessarily need to be on call after hours if we're going to have an entirely remote team. We can have people on that team that span different time zones. And so, from a thoughtbot perspective, it's interesting how those things went hand in hand for us.
\n\nJOE: Yes, it's been immensely helpful for Mission Control, in particular, to be fully remote. There are a lot of options that wouldn't have been available to us if we were a U.S.-centric team. It's been really interesting. I've built out development teams before that were focused on a location. And it's been really interesting to build out this team with a focus on availability and distribution.
\n\nFor example, one thing that has helped us is having somebody in South America because they don't celebrate U.S. holidays. So even discounting time zones, which are a challenge when you're trying to provide around-the-clock availability, just having that kind of diversity in holiday schedules really helps. So we've been able to build it totally differently than we would have if we were trying to put a bunch of people in an office. And I think it's made it possible for us to have much better coverage with a much smaller team.
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\n\nCHAD: So Mission Control I introduced it as maintenance and DevOps. So we're also helping people with different kinds of things beyond operations, right?
\n\nJOE: Yeah, particularly with SRE, there's a focus on stability and scaling. And we're also helping people with CI/CD. One of the focuses for us this quarter has been helping people develop CI/CD pipelines that provide safer deploys and providing guidance and a system for developers to implement things like feature flags and beta flags.
\n\nBecause one of the challenges of making performance improvements is that you don't actually know if you've solved the problem until it's deployed, and deploying something that changes performance is inherently risky. And so, in addition to helping people actually make the performance improvements, we have to demonstrate the process for deploying and testing those improvements.
\n\nCHAD: I've worked on fairly big systems in the past. But there have been a couple of different instances over the last maybe year where we've approached the problem in a different way than we have in the past, which has been really interesting to me from a development standpoint. It's the idea of…if you remember, for the food delivery application, we had that conversation about the different ways to build APIs rather than versioning APIs explicitly. And that has been a different approach than the way I would have done things in the past. And it's been a really powerful approach. So, can we talk a little bit more about that approach?
\n\nJOE: Sure.
\n\nCHAD: Well, specifically, so we have mobile applications that use a back-end API, and not everyone updates their mobile application at the same time instantly. You have bugs basically in the wild that you are fixing or that you're changing in your API, or if you're just introducing API changes.
\n\nAnd so the idea of instead of explicitly versioning API on the server-side and having clients write to a specific API, instead building much more flexible APIs, in particular, having the client tell you what version of the API that they're expecting but through consolidated API endpoints so that the server is much more in control of the behavior than the client being in control of the behavior.
\n\nJOE: Yeah, I think the two big changes that were helpful on that project were using GraphQL for some of the APIs, which provides more flexibility generally than a typical REST API and the minimum version requirement. So the application sends the version of the application. And the API will tell the client they have to upgrade if it's a version that isn't compatible with the newer APIs. So when we do have to break backwards compatibility, we force an app upgrade.
\n\nCHAD: But in general, you're taking the approach not to break backward compatibility. And you're meeting the client where it's at whenever possible and maintaining backward compatibility in the APIs.
\n\nJOE: That's something that we have been teaching developers about generally is backwards and forwards compatibility. We do that with deployments as well. For some of the larger deployments we have where there might be dozens of containers running for a service, it certainly doesn't make sense to stop them all and start new ones because the app would be down for a long time. And it would take too long to catch up to the backlog of requests.
\n\nBut even a typical blue-green deployment is problematic. So if we have 30 containers running and we spin up 30 new containers, and they all need 15 database connections, then during the deploy, you potentially overload your database or exhaust your connection limit. Plus, you will need to allocate the compute resources for double the normal workload.
\n\nSo what we've been doing instead is rolling deploys almost everywhere where we spin up a few new containers using the new version and wait until they're fully online, spin down a few old ones, and then repeat that process until everything is up to date. But to do a rolling deploy like that requires backwards compatibility with the services it uses, in particular, at the database. And so, writing Rails migrations that are backwards compatible for one version has been a challenge.
\n\nCHAD: And there's not really good tooling in Rails to do multiple stages of things. So if you really want to do that, you have to manage that in your source control basically and say, "Here's a new migration. We're going to merge in and deploy after this one," and that's not so great.
\n\nJOE: Right. The other way to do that in the CI/CD pipeline would be to release commits one at a time and wait for them to be rolled out. But depending on how you structure your commit log, that could be pretty tedious. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. I've seen as I've worked on this other project we're really striving to do continuous deployment. It's a high traffic, very complex deployment with lots of individual configured tenants. Separating out the concept of a deploy from a release has been very valuable for the application and for the clients. It changes the way that you need to think about how development progresses.
\n\nI never before really worked in a system where you're literally sometimes duplicating and preserving old code, putting new code in place, having them both deployed, and then being able to switch between them as part of the release, and then cleaning up the old code later. At the scale that this is at, at the complexity that this is at, it makes sense for that application. It obviously doesn't make sense for everybody to be working that way.
\n\nJOE: Right. Breaking up applications to be a little smaller, having components that could be experimented with individually would make some of that easier. The experimentation there separating the release from the deploy some of that is necessary because it's monolithic in so many ways. Like, it's a very big Rails application with one database with ACID compliance, which is a very powerful model. And it provides simplicity in some ways. But then it requires you to take on the complexity of making sure that you release things correctly.
\n\nI do think that it would be difficult in this particular situation but for applications that reach that level of traffic and where you need to manage the risk of deploying, having smaller components, having some services broken would make that easier because you could do, for example, a canary deploy with one release rather than duplicating the code and having the old and new version.
\n\nCHAD: Right. The services create boundaries with contracts about behavior and reduces things that are tightly coupled together, and their behavior is tightly coupled together. So, for example, on this application, we do have that one service that is completely managed independently from the main monolith and has its own deploy schedule. And we can, for the most part, change them independently without needing to go through all of that process that we go through to manage change. I think you're absolutely right.
\n\nJOE: Another experiment we've been trying for another client is it's another Rails monolith. There are different audiences for it. So this is the food delivery application again. And there are customers who are placing orders. There are drivers who are delivering orders. There are restaurants that are fulfilling orders. And then there are admins who are managing everything in the back end. And there's some overlap in the data they use. But the actual requests, and controllers, and pieces of the Rails application they use are almost entirely isolated.
\n\nSo one challenge we had was being able to provide different reliability contracts for those different audiences and also scaling them and configuring them differently. So, for example, if you've done tuning for a Rails application before, you've probably tweaked things like how many threads will I have for each of my Puma workers? How many Puma workers will I have per container? How many database connections do I need in the pool?
\n\nAnd what we were able to do for this application using Kubernetes and Isto was running the same application, the same container, so like one monolithic Rails container but running it more than once in different configurations and routing traffic to different pools of containers based on the audience.
\n\nAnd so, for example, if the customer is making requests, those all go to the customer pool of containers, which are scaled independently and have their own configuration tweaks for the kinds of requests that customers tend to make, which are generally small, high throughput requests with lots of little rights.
\n\nAnd then, compared to the admin panel, they typically view dashboards and big lists of records. And so, the requests tend to be larger, but the number of users is much smaller. There are way more customers than there are admins. And so, for those, we have fewer connections. We have more memory allocated for the kind of bloat that results in those types of requests.
\n\nAnd we also have a different performance objective for admins. It's more acceptable for those pages to respond a little bit slower. And admins understand it's their job. They have to use the software. So they'll reload the page if they have to versus a customer where if they're having trouble placing an order, they might just buy somewhere else. So that's been a pretty powerful mechanism we were able to leverage
\n\nCHAD: Is that switching on URL-like endpoints?
\n\nJOE: Yeah, it's based on the path. But the mechanisms available to us are actually pretty powerful. At that point, we have access to the full request. So we could really route based on anything we wanted right down to the user.
\n\nCHAD: I guess that's a really good example. You don't have access to that routing on Heroku.
\n\nJOE: No, I think any Platform as a Service where they manage the routing if they don't provide that feature, you don't get that feature.
\n\nCHAD: This is the first we're talking about this. That is a really interesting example of how to scale a monolith solves some of the problems that services often get you without having to break everything up right off the bat in order to do that.
\n\nJOE: Yeah. I also think it provides kind of an inside-out approach to doing that. One of the problems with breaking out services is you have to plan what the services are going to be to a certain degree. And so, I think the best way to do it is to extract services from a monolith the same way you extract classes to break them up.
\n\nAnd this audience-based approach is almost like a dry run. You can see if the boundaries you're drawing make sense in terms of traffic. And if those make sense, it probably makes sense to break up the front end at those boundaries eventually into different applications. And then figure out what services you need to extract to provide the common infrastructure for those front-end services.
\n\nThe same way test-driven development makes it much easier to find the correct tests to write, I think this approach of audience boundary discovery is an interesting approach to finding service boundaries versus trying to guess at what the services are, which very frequently leads people to wrapping services around database tables which doesn't help at all.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's the wrong thing to be looking at when you're looking at how to do services.
\n\nJOE: Right. It's almost like deciding what your database tables would be upfront before you've seen the UI for the application.
\n\nCHAD: Cool. So heading into 2022, we're looking ahead at the upcoming year. And so what's on the docket for Mission Control?
\n\nJOE: We didn't start experimenting fully with SRE until the third quarter of this year. And so far, we've loved it. So I think we'll make a pretty heavy investment into our SRE offering. The goal is for us to have an open-source set of Terraform modules that effectively deploy a platform ready to go for SRE. What we want to do is maintain and curate that platform and then deploy it and maintain it for our clients.
\n\nI think another big thing we'll be doing is (This might be incredibly boring.) but restructuring the way our agreements work a little bit. One of the things we wanted to test out when we built Mission Control was how much we could have built into a monthly recurring contract versus billing for time and materials like we usually do. So we tried putting a lot into that contract and really pushing the boundaries of what would be reasonable.
\n\nAnd there was definitely a lot of pain there for us and a lot of difficult conversations with clients. So I think for 2022, we will be shifting a lot of our work back towards time and materials. So I guess that's a lesson out there for anybody else that's providing [laughs] support contracts is to make sure that the responsibilities contained in the linear amount scale linearly.
\n\nCHAD: I think when we originally conceived of Mission Control, we also saw it handling a lot more things that it turns out just were not doing as part of Mission Control like regular Rails upgrades.
\n\nJOE: Yeah, a lot of the things that we included in contracts originally were not particularly important to clients or at least were not outside of what they were capable of doing already. So it wasn't that much of a value-add. There are a lot of people out there that will upgrade your Rails version. And having somebody who just does it in the background but isn't aware of some of the impacts that might have in the application turned out to be not much of a value prop. Whereas stability turns out to be a big pain point for a lot of people, people don't know how to do it.
\n\nAnd then our maintenance offering, I think what ended up providing the most value is not the keeping the code fresh parts, but it was more for the teams that don't have a large continuous development team having access to somebody who can fix quick bugs and things like that without needing to first negotiate a contract with a provider. I think that provides a lot of value. Those are pretty separate and different offerings. But those are the pieces that we found have really been valuable to clients.
\n\nCHAD: Well, great. If people want to find out more about Mission Control or get in touch with you, where are the best places for them to do that?
\n\nJOE: Well, we have a website thoughtbot.com/mission-control with a dash between mission and control. There are a few ways to reach out there. You can also find us on Twitter. We are @thoughtbot, and I am @joeferris.
\n\nCHAD: Cool. You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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Emily Bahna a Managing Director at thoughtbot who leads the Lift Off team, where they focus on really leaning into the core of the company. The team works with new founders to launch new products or they work with existing companies that want to build out a new service or open up a new area to generate revenue for their business. But, the thing that ties Lift Off together, is that they start at ground zero to build upon an idea and actually build the first version product to get it out live into the marketplace.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Emily Bahna, Managing Director of thoughtbot's Lift Off team. Emily, thanks for joining me.
\n\nEMILY: Thank you.
\n\nCHAD: So at this point, we've talked with a few of the different managing directors at thoughtbot about their teams. And Lift Off is one of the largest teams that we have. And so what is it that Lift Off actually does?
\n\nEMILY: Lift Off is focused in on really leaning into the core of thoughtbot. We work with new founders launching new products or work with existing companies that want to build out a new service or open up a new area to generate revenue for their business. But I think the thing that ties Lift Off together is that we are starting at ground zero building upon an idea and actually building the first version product and getting it out into the marketplace.
\n\nCHAD: And oftentimes, those are pretty significant endeavors. The last episode that came out was with Dawn at Ignite who is more on the validation, early stage, getting things that are fairly straightforward into market as quickly as possible usually in a matter of months. But Lift Off the endeavors are usually quite a bit more significant than that, right?
\n\nEMILY: Yeah. I would say that the difference between validation...we're beyond the stage of validation. We're working with clients who are ready to build a foundation. They really need to put in the infrastructure that's going to take their product and get it ready to scale into the future. So they really need to make that investment into the longer-term strategy. They need to know what's realistic to build first. But they also have to keep an eye on the long road ahead of building something that can be something that can set out to grow down the road as well.
\n\nCHAD: I guess another way of putting it is that Ignite often works with brand new teams, brand new companies creating something for the first time. And Lift Off typically works with existing companies who have existing significant revenue who want to do something new, either a new business or a new product, or maybe they have an existing web product and they're going into mobile for the first time. That's another way of putting it, right?
\n\nEMILY: It could be. I think that when people are ready to move into the Lift Off space, it's about having the investment, the right kind of funding to move in that direction. Sometimes we do work with new founders that have a significant amount of funding, but a lot of times it is folks that are at the enterprise level that are building a new service line. They've got validation and market research already done. And they're building out a completely new line of business that they need to explore and set a new foundation in place.
\n\nCHAD: Do you have some examples of clients that have been projects of Lift Off?
\n\nEMILY: Yeah. We've been doing a lot of really interesting work in the health tech space, a lot of interest in improving patient experience. So we worked with a company called Relias in terms of moving them into a new service line that they'd never been in before, really focusing on improving patient care for therapists, physical therapy therapists. We've also worked with an organization called Groups Recover Together, building out a mobile application for an organization that helps people recover from substance abuse. And we also are working with an organization called Airrosti. That is also an organization that helps in the physical therapy space, so improving patient exercises or rehabilitation through an improved mobile experience, virtual experience to improve overall patient outcomes.
\n\nCHAD: I think it's not a coincidence that a lot of the projects that we work on in Lift Off are in the health tech space because that combination of...like you were saying, a lot of what Lift Off does is really build products that are complex and that are going to scale and have a certain scale fairly quickly and need to really think about more of a platform that's going to be iterated upon into the future. And once you get into a highly regulated industry like health or finance or something, there are so many factors at play, especially if you're an existing business going into that. There's lots to consider. The projects are more complex. And so having a team of people that are focused on working in that kind of environment and know the challenges of doing that and an integrated design and development team who's comfortable operating in that space, I think that that's why it's not a coincidence.
\n\nEMILY: Yeah. I think there's also a lot of great energy in that space right now to move it to the next level. And to be honest, the pandemic really accelerated the need for improvements in patient engagement and allowing therapists or physicians to be able to care for patients in a virtual setting. It also is true not just in health tech, but as you mentioned, we've been actively working with a lot of FinTech companies as well, building out mobile experiences for companies that are helping people get out of debt or working in even some of these new areas like cryptocurrency and things that are changing pretty rapidly in the marketplace and being able to respond to that. But kind of working in a really complex environment some particular industries that have specific compliance security needs in order to be able to serve their customers in a safe way. So working through a lot of those challenges is what's really important and having a team that can navigate through those levels of complexity.
\n\nCHAD: I've talked with the other managing directors about the benefits of our new focus teams and how working on a similar project allows the team members to focus. The other aspect of it is there are parts of what we did under the studio model. And it may have been like there'd be one Lift Off project within...I think we should mention that you used to be the Managing Director of the Durham Studio. And it was a relatively small team working with local clients. And so you may only have one of these kinds of clients a year or maybe even less.
\n\nAnd so building up an expertise but also meeting the needs of those particular clients there wasn't enough work there, for example, to hire someone with a specific skill set or knowledge if it's only going to be few and far between. And that's been true in Lift Off because we used to, at thoughtbot, not really have product managers. Everyone was designers and developers. And that was because only a subset of our projects really needed a product manager at the table. For the most part, a lot of those smaller projects or the boost-style projects are just developers or designers working directly with a stakeholder. And so, within Lift Off, we've built a product management practice because of that specialized need within these kinds of projects, right?
\n\nEMILY: Yeah, I think just like you said, the ability to really focus in on the first version product is looking at ways that we could improve our process there and provide more support that's really needed for these kinds of engagements. So what we have seen with the more complex MVPs is a lot of these clients need reliability. They need to know that what they're building is the...They need to have more support in terms of the management of that, having someone who's dedicated to being able to straddle between the business objectives and working with the team navigating some of these more complex compliance issues, security issues, and keeping that on track.
\n\nAlso, we've been leaning into improving our practices around defining what first version product is. We've been using design sprints to really help align both business owners and the team to determine what are the biggest risk factors? How do we define what we're actually going to build and start building that roadmap? And we've been leaning into those best practices and actually improving upon it.
\n\nAnd so we've looked at that and built out a discovery sprint that is not just a week-long but really extends that out to about three weeks to give us more time to do more user research, dive a little deeper through the design sprint exercises, but then bring in engineering, bringing an interdisciplinary team to look at the problem from both a product management point of view, a design point of view, and a development point of view to really determine the first version product roadmap and give more clarity to our clients and a clearer sense of what we can accomplish in the first.
\n\nCHAD: I can speak to this firsthand because I was advising and working on a project that started before we reorganized into teams and effectively playing that role. But as the project went on, not that we did a terrible job, but it became overwhelming for me with my other responsibilities and spending a couple of days a week. A couple of days a week is sufficient on a smaller project, but on a much larger project, it's essentially a full-time job to do all of that work. [chuckles] And I just didn't have enough time to be able to do that, let alone then provide a real active management of the roadmap six-plus months out.
\n\nSo a very lightweight process with not a lot of definition works when that period is then over in 6 to 12 weeks, and you have something [chuckles] in the market. When you're trying to plan and trying to coordinate work and trying to give clarity around a product and everything that's six-plus months out, it's a whole nother ball game. And it requires a whole nother level of effort, and the clients want that. And so being able to give it to them not only makes them more successful and more confident and feeling like they have that reliability, but it also then puts our team in a better supported set up for success and that kind of thing because they have what they need, and the client has what they need. And everyone's able to really come together and collaborate on building and launching a great product.
\n\nEMILY: Yeah. I think we're always looking at ways that we can improve our process, and as we are taking on more of the complex projects recognizing the need for this role. What's really exciting is the interest in the product management role. It’s been an opportunity for our team members. We've had two senior developers who've wanted to move into that role. And it's been an amazing transformation of with them, similar to you, having that background, the hands-on background of understanding what it means to be a developer on a project but then being able to transition to a different role on the project and get more involved on the business side of things. But that's been extraordinarily successful in making that transition and providing the support that the team needs in order to be successful. So in some ways, it's like we were trying to do that job without really defining it. But now that it's been defined, just recognizing the value that that role plays on these types of projects and seeing the opportunity to even improve it.
\n\nCHAD: I wanted to tell you all about something I've been working on quietly for the past year or so, and that's AgencyU. AgencyU is a membership-based program where I work one on one with a small group of agency founders and leaders toward their business goals. We do one on one coaching sessions and also monthly group meetings. We start with goal setting, advice, and problem-solving based on my experiences over the last 18 years of running thoughtbot. As we progress as a group, we all get to know each other more. And many of the AgencyU members are now working on client projects together and even referring work to each other. Whether you're struggling to grow an agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in my 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot, I've seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and I'd be happy to work with you. Learn more and sign up today at thoughtbot.com/agencyu. That's A-G-E-N-C-Y, the letter U.
\n\nSo we have a bunch of positions open in Lift Off. But product management is one of those positions that we're looking for people, right?
\n\nEMILY: Yeah. We are actually opening up a position for Director of Product Management because the role is so critical to the work that we're doing, just like...I feel like we're extending our design and development model but then adding this third tier of product management, which is just as important in terms of the team that works best for these types of projects. It's having that interdisciplinary core of product management, design, and development working together for new products. A lot of it is really having that high-level oversight, the business strategy integrated in with the folks that can specialize in the development and the design piece. Having to look at the problem from those three different points of view just provides a level of reliability for clients that they just can't get with a single point of view.
\n\nCHAD: What is the size of the product management team now?
\n\nEMILY: Right now? Let's see. I think we've got about five. We have four or five active product managers right now.
\n\nCHAD: So tell us more about the ideal Director of Product Management. What do you think that they would be? Able to lead a team that size while also evolving our product management process and doing product management themselves?
\n\nEMILY: Yeah. I think I'm bringing in somebody who can help us improve our product management process specifically for first version products and really looking at it, and really shaping it, and pulling in the best practices, and really shaping it for the clients that we have I think is one thing I'm looking for the director to do. I'm also looking at the director to upskill our team. Like I said, there are a lot of folks like developers and designers that are actually interested in moving into that role and building up a potential career pathway for folks that may want to move into that area and to ensure that they are successful with that.
\n\nAnd then growing the team, we are hoping to be able to...I think we've got five active projects right now, so being able to grow our projects and to grow the team so that we can support those kinds of projects on an ongoing basis. So really extending that out and then working collaboratively with our design and development directors to look at how we can collectively put together best practices around first version products.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. Well, what's on your radar now? What's next for Lift Off besides hiring a Director of Product Management?
\n\nEMILY: [laughs] That's definitely number one. I think what is up next is really focusing in on teamwork. How do we work collectively as a team? Are there ways to improve our process to better serve our clients? We've done a lot of things in the past year. Like I'd mentioned before, we've improved our design sprints and extended them to become discovery sprints. Those are just names, but it's really the beginning stages of kicking off a project more successfully. Looking at ways that we can improve our customer experience and being able to serve clients in a better way, improving our product management across the board for all our projects, looking at ways that throughout the first version product for our clients what other ways can we better support our clients? Either through go-to-market strategies or helping them recruit permanent team members onto their team. But I think what's next for Lift Off is really examining how we service clients and looking at ways that we can actually make it even better.
\n\nCHAD: Cool. Well, I want to change gears a little bit and ask you about you.
\n\nEMILY: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: So your background, I think it's important to say is as a designer, right?
\n\nEMILY: Yeah, that's one of my backgrounds.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nCHAD: Okay, you have a varied background. But what were you doing when you joined thoughtbot and moved into the Managing Director role? And how has that evolved over time?
\n\nEMILY: I think it's really interesting. You're always leaning into something. And as you look back at your past, even if it doesn't seem to make sense, you're always gravitating to something that is your North Star. Before I joined thoughtbot, I actually ran my own agency, which was called UX-Shop. And it was a team of one; it was me. As I was building up that agency, I recognized that I couldn't do it all. The types of projects that I wanted to work on were more complex. And so, when I started UX-Shop, I would be pulling in talent to create the type of team that would make that project more successful. It was hard to continually do that in a way where I had to recruit talent [laughs] and secure projects as well without having them as permanent employees.
\n\nWhen I joined thoughtbot, it was an opportunity where I had access to amazing talent. And I could really focus in on building that, first off doing it in the Raleigh, Durham office where we went from a team of four to I think we grew the team to about nine. And starting to really grow that office to transitioning to this new model where we went from a team of nine to...I don't know the exact number, but I think it's like 25, 28. We're heading toward the 30 mark. So it's a significantly larger team with the ability to really focus in on the kind of projects that I actually really love, which is new product design and development but going after those more complex projects.
\n\nAnd I think when I start looking back at my own career, I'm just starting to see patterns of the same focus but the opportunity to dive into it in a bigger way, in a more challenging way, and starting to tackle that. So thoughtbot's really given me the opportunity to take that ambition and actually apply it with the opportunity to have the talented team to be able to execute on those types of projects.
\n\nCHAD: How has going from a team of one to a team of four to a team of nine to a team of pushing 30...are there things that you've needed to evolve in your own skillset or experiences?
\n\nEMILY: Yeah. I think certainly building leadership skills, understanding how to work through a lot of challenges on what makes a team work really well together, making sure that we've got the guidelines and structures in place. There are a lot of things that I've grown just having the opportunity to work through some of those challenges. But also, in some ways, growing into a larger team has made some things a little easier. But it was nice having that progression from a smaller team to a larger team.
\n\nI don't know if I would have been as successful with growing to a team of 30 right off the bat without being able to work in that smaller space, kind of learn my lessons, and then build upon those and grow that unit, get better at what I was doing. The reason why Lift Off is really starting to thrive is understanding that that foundation is built upon a lot of trial and error and just learning how to navigate and improve my own personal leadership skills.
\n\nCHAD: Are there any particular resources that you called upon in order to do that?
\n\nEMILY: So certainly reaching out to folks who are in similar positions. There's a strong community here where I live in Durham, talking to a lot of founders or folks in the leadership space who are growing teams. I've had some coaching with executive coaching that's helped quite a bit, especially when I've been in situations that I just wanted to make sure that I was handling them in the right way. And then, of course, having access to the folks at thoughtbot like you, Chad, and people that I can talk to and get advice on how to navigate tricky situations have all been contributing to my education and making me a better leader in this space.
\n\nCHAD: Would you recommend coaching to other people?
\n\nEMILY: I would. I think it's a real opportunity for you to...there's a lot of things that you don't really know that you don't know. And there's a lot of ways of approaching things in a different way on how you communicate. That is the difference between really getting through and solving a problem versus having a situation arise and escalate and become problematic. And it's a little bit of understanding how to frame things in a thoughtful way.
\n\nIt's also an opportunity to understand that sometimes you just need to have some space to think before responding and understanding how to navigate complexity, especially in today's world where leadership there's so much going on, transitioning to remote. There are different things that are pulling at us in different aspects and just really understanding the human element of your teams. So having someone who you can talk to in a way that you can share those ideas and get a different perspective, I think, is really helpful.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. Well, if folks want to get in touch with you or Lift Off, what's the best places for them to do that?
\n\nEMILY: Well, there's always my email, emily@thoughtbot.com. I think just reaching out to me directly is the best place. I'm always happy to talk about Lift Off or have an intro coffee call with folks that are interested in what we do. So that's the best way to get in touch with me.
\n\nCHAD: Excellent. You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have any questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
Special Guest: Emily Bahna.
Sponsored By:
Dawn Delatte a Designer and Managing Director at thoughtbot who leads the Ignite team, where they focus primarily on validating and launching early-stage products through design-thinking, business and product strategy, and iterative design and development. Dawn works collaboratively with designers and developers to ensure they add value to the people and products thoughtbot works with every day.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Dawn Delatte, Managing Director of the thoughtbot Ignite team. Dawn, thanks for joining me.
\n\nDAWN: Hi, thanks for having me.
\n\nCHAD: Ignite is one of the examples I always use when I talk about why we split up into teams the way that we did and what the benefits are, Dawn. So why don't you tell people what Ignite actually does?
\n\nDAWN: Cool. So the Ignite team we work with entrepreneurs, and non-technical startup founders, in some cases, experienced startup founders, as well as innovation teams within existing organizations. And we work with them to validate their product ideas and deliver very initial versions of their products to continue that validation process. We provide all kinds of services around that from a validation perspective. We use product sprint methodology to understand the opportunity, understand the market, the problem, come up with solutions, all those things to arrive at some ideas and some solutions that we can then quickly prototype and then test with target users depending on who we've decided their customer is or who they've decided their customer is. And that's very high level. I'm happy to get into more detail about what our discovery sprints are like.
\n\nBut after that, then we would go into, like I said, continued validation but through actual product launches. So sometimes that looks like proof of concepts, sometimes that's first MVPs. But either way, we focus on a set of goals, and that could be a certain number of users onboarded to the platform. It could be getting that next round of investment funding. But it's pretty straightforward, not a whole lot of complexity, and focused on getting a product and company to that next best stage.
\n\nCHAD: One of the reasons why I use Ignite is that it's on one end of the spectrum. It's at the extreme end of the spectrum. Last week, I talked to Josh, who's on the other end of Boost, where we're working on existing products with existing teams. And Ignite is all the way on the other side, which is sometimes we are not even writing any code at all; we're just validating an idea.
\n\nThe work that Ignite does has always been a very important part of what thoughtbot does. But it's a big challenge to go from a product where maybe you have hundreds of thousands or millions of users and a large team, and you're doing development as a developer or designer, maybe it's healthcare or something super complex, and then to the next week where you're working on something that is going to get into market very quickly, maybe is totally unproven. The things you need to do in that environment and the way that you need to work can be a little bit different.
\n\nAnd so allowing the thoughtbot designers and developers to focus on the particular needs of the Ignite-type clients I think we have seen, and I think we'll continue to see it as people even get more used to it, it has a direct benefit to our clients as well The best thing might not always be to write a Rails app. But if you take a developer who was on a Rails app on Friday or Thursday, and then they start on a new project on Monday, chances are they're expecting to write a Rails app.
\n\nDAWN: That's a really important observation and distinction about what our developers do compared to other developers at thoughtbot. I've always said that selling any kind of project or working with new clients with any type of project, whether it's very early stage or that enterprise client that we all wear our product consulting hats, or we're product consultants first, and then we have our toolkit. But I think that is the most true, at least from my experience, in the Ignite team.
\n\nAnd we've even talked about and, in some cases, have been able to blur the lines even more between designers and developers because first and foremost, you're coming to the problems thinking about it exactly how you're talking about. Like, what is it going to take to make this product launch successful? It might not involve writing very much code. And we might not discover that until after we've been working together for a couple of weeks and started to validate some of the ideas we have. And so, being able to have that adaptability and really focus on the consulting and strategy aspect of things is super important.
\n\nCHAD: So if there is a typical or Ignite client that we're working with, what does it look like?
\n\nDAWN: I would say a typical...so who we've engaged the most with are non-technical founders and entrepreneurs. And I say non-technical but what I really mean is they haven't had the experience of launching a product and going through that process.
\n\nCHAD: A digital product.
\n\nDAWN: Yeah, a digital product. So for lack of a better way to describe them, non-technical because there's a lot of work involved in helping them understand product strategy and technical architecting and everything that happens in between. So that's who we've been able to work with primarily while we've also worked with other types of clients.
\n\nCHAD: What is typically the first step with clients? At what stage are they at, and what is the first step that we're taking them through?
\n\nDAWN: The sales process is a little bit different. We're not talking about requirements. And we're not exactly talking about what the end product looks like. If the conversation is going that way, we're usually trying to bring it back a little bit and keep things more high level just to make sure that we have a really good sense of what it is that we should try to do.
\n\nSo the sales process is we're already starting to dig into validation processes and making sure that our clients are able to define their customers and define the problem, and have started to think about their value proposition from a business perspective, and have made other considerations that through all of our experience, all the years that we have experience with shipping products, make sure that the client understands at least at a very high level what the big components for success are going to be. And if they haven't started to make decisions about those things, that they know that we can help them do that.
\n\nSo that conversation is already starting in the sales process, which is great because we can get the team involved, and everybody starts wrapping their head around the problem. And by the time that we actually kick off the project, we're really excited because we all are ready, and we have ideas for what we can do together.
\n\nBut the first stage is usually always what we call a discovery sprint. So we've been doing Product Design Sprints for a long time at thoughtbot. And we've always been iterative with everything we do. But with Product Design Sprints, especially because every single one of them is unique, you have to figure out either what exercises you're going to do that make the most sense for this client in this project.
\n\nWe had, I guess a bigger iteration of the Product Design Sprint as a whole. And we've moved into this concept of a discovery sprint or a discovery phase. And it allows us to do a couple of things. So the Product Design Sprint was largely modeled after the Google Ventures Sprint, which is this intensive five-day process where you quickly understand the problem, come up with some solutions together, prototype, and test within five days. We've elongated that process a little bit. So we definitely do two weeks, sometimes four if there's a lot to uncover and make sure we understand about the market before we start writing code or before we start doing the next phase of work together.
\n\nAnd we kick off with a lot of the same processes. So like I keep saying, making sure you understand the problem, making sure you've defined the customer, the opportunities. In some cases, at least with our clients, we're actually doing lean model canvas work because our clients haven't always thought through how they're going to make money off of this product and what their competitive landscape looks like and things like that. We incorporate a lot of that business strategy into the product strategy work that we're doing during this phase.
\n\nBut yeah, the first week of a discovery sprint is usually those kinds of exercises, working together through all this institutional knowledge that the client might have. Because usually, they're experiencing this problem or they've been in this industry,and they know what the problems of their customers have, and so they can talk a lot about it. And then, we move into some of the more traditional Product Design Sprint phases, so diverge exercises, converge exercises that help us to come up with a bunch of ideas for what the product should be or should do. And then decide as a group which ones are the strongest so that we can move into prototyping.
\n\nWe prototype. We test with either existing customers in this space, or we get anonymous users based on certain demographics that are important to validate the concept with, and then we test. And then, we do that iteratively throughout the process to make sure that we're capturing as much data as we can to feel confident about how validation is going. Or, in some cases, it might make sense for us to think about the next phase of validation actually being more like a proof of concept. And so we can jump into that really quickly depending on how validation is going.
\n\nA lot of times, at the end of discovery spreads, we've incorporated some technical planning and architecting into the process. Sometimes we have to validate that the launch approach is going to work from a technical perspective. And so that's the kind of research that our developer would be doing in this process. And by the end of this phase, we have a presentation of our findings, an architectural diagram if that's where we're leaning or where we would recommend the next stage go. We would present all that information and make a decision. Sometimes we invalidate. We largely invalidate some of the ideas that we came up with, and we have to go back to the drawing board.
\n\nCHAD: Have we worked with any clients recently that had a major invalidation where they really needed to go back to the drawing board based on what we learned with the whole concept?
\n\nDAWN: We did have a client that we worked with this year that we didn't invalidate things during the sprint but not far into the product build, we realized that we were going to need some other infrastructure in place in order for that product to be successful. So we actually did a more traditional Product Design Sprint with this client. Part of the reasoning was…, and this product idea was in the real estate space. [chuckles] The idea was to open up the market a little bit by...I don't want to say eliminating, but I guess, in a way eliminating certain aspects of what a realtor might do in the process of buying and selling real estate.
\n\nIt is possible to knock on somebody's door and ask them if you can buy their house, and then the transaction is facilitated through a realtor. But this would open up the possibility of this happening digitally through a product. So there’s certain data that you can pull from real estate sites out there that let you know certain things about a property. And this is public information; anybody can find it.
\n\nAnd the concept was to have homeowners who might potentially be interested in selling their properties be on the platform and have their homes be available to anybody that might be looking or vice versa. Like, someone who's buying could get on the platform and see what kind of homes are in their area; maybe they have a particular area that they want to buy in and essentially cut out the realtor in that they could go directly to the property owner and inquire about their home or see if they might be interested in selling it. So that was, at a high level, the product idea.
\n\nWe did a more traditional sprint with them because the client was obviously very familiar with this space and really understood the opportunity well. And there are not a lot of competitors in this space in the U.S., at least. Our goal was ultimately to get to a plan for MVP. And so we spent time validating the user experience and at a high level, making sure that we were confident and moving forward with everything. And we felt like we got validation for that.
\n\nAnd we got started on the project, and we realized there's actually a lot to this space. It's very heavily...if not regulated, there are all sorts of processes in place that require very specific people and roles to accomplish different things and facilitate the process. It's also because of the role that a realtor has played for so long. People aren't very educated on what this process could be like, buying and selling homes, especially with a direct transaction. And so there was way more to uncover and to understand and to work through on the business side than we had initially anticipated. And so we decided to quickly bring in somebody to focus on product strategy while we were also iteratively working through an MVP launch.
\n\nSo we decided to test as often as we can and constantly be working through on a weekly basis what it was that we were building, making sure that that aligned with what we were learning in real-time, essentially. The product strategist came on and started to continue some of the competitor research that we had started in the Product Design Sprints really try to understand the market and try to work very directly with the clients who were both in real estate to quickly make decisions about the direction that we were going in while we were also iterating on this product idea.
\n\nAbout halfway through, which is standard to Ignite a 12 to 16-week MVP launch, so about halfway through at about six weeks in, we decided that we needed to continue validating with a working prototype as opposed to continuing to chug along until we got to MVP launch and just see what happened. That was feeling too risky as we were learning more and more about the market. So I wouldn't say we invalidated anything, but as we continued to validate and as we started to build iteratively realized that we needed to spend a lot more time on validating the product idea and that it made sense to do that with a working product. And so, we pivoted in that way once we had started building.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's cool. I often say that it's fairly rare that we completely invalidate the core of someone's idea. But it's not at all rare that it changes based on what everyone is learning along the way, whether that be in a Product Design Sprint or discovery sprint. And I think that's one of the things that not only does it make products more successful because you're reducing risk and you're changing them based on the things that you'll learn, but I also think it leads to the working environment that I want to be a part of where it's very collaborative; everyone's building off of each other's ideas. We're changing based on what we learn rapidly. I really love doing that.
\n\nDAWN: Yeah.
\n\nAD: I wanted to tell you all about something I’ve been working on quietly for the past year or so, and that’s AgencyU.
\n\nAgencyU is a membership-based program where I work one on one with a small group of Agency founders and leaders toward their business goals. We do one-on-one coaching sessions and also monthly group meetings. We start with goal setting, advice, and problem-solving based on my experiences over the last 18 years of running thoughtbot. As we progress as a group, we all get to know each other more, and many of the AgencyU members are now working on client projects together and referring work to each other.
\n\nWhether you’re struggling to grow your agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in my 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot, I’ve seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and I’d be happy to work with you.
\n\nLearn more and sign up at thoughtbot.com/agencyu
\n\nDAWN: And it's funny what you just said about learning versus invalidating. I literally just got off of a call with somebody right before I joined this, and we touched on that exact same thing. They've been building a prototype and going through their own validation phases. And this person pointed out that they didn't want to call the work that they had been doing validation that they wanted to call it learning. And I just thought that was very poignant. I feel like I call it continued validation when I'm talking about delivering a proof of concept or initial MVP because, really, that's what it is. But I think a better way to say it is just learning. You're learning from the process and from your market, and it's all at the same time. It's very agile in that way.
\n\nCHAD: One of the meta reasons why I like that from a thoughtbot perspective is that oftentimes, founders, in particular, can be very precious about their ideas or not want to give up. And so this idea of oh, it could potentially be invalidated is almost like a confrontational tension or something that even when they are shown something they might not be willing to adjust because it's not their original idea. And the word learning subtly de-escalates that a little bit. It's like, what have we learned? [laughs] Have we learned something that we can take into play? It's not invalidating the idea.
\n\nDAWN: Yeah, I find that using the term like de-risking does a similar thing. Because whether or not you're an investor, that's a term that I think everybody can understand. Like, let's try to learn from and lower the risk of us not being successful with each step we take. The ultimate goal is product success and business success, and we want to get people there. But we want to make sure we do it the right way. And we want to make sure that all the decisions that we're making early on have positive, long-term effects. So yeah, de-risking and learning. I think I'm going to change the way I talk about validation now. [laughter]
\n\nCHAD: So what else is Ignite working towards now? I know that you have...everywhere at thoughtbot, we've got a bunch of open positions open. So you're actively hiring, right?
\n\nDAWN: Yeah. So going back to what you were saying and what we were talking about earlier, a lot of what we've been thinking through on the development side is what skills are really necessary and important for our developers to have for the types of projects and the type of work that we're doing. We made an assumption and have been working through learning [laughter] whether or not that assumption is true that we don't necessarily need a ton of back-end Rails expertise to be able to deliver products in the way that we're thinking. Rails has always been really good with MVPs, really good for MVPs and speed to market and things like that. But I think that we are thinking through how we can be even more agile and iterative with product delivery.
\n\nSo we're leaning towards skill sets that focus on the front end, so delivering that really great consumer or user experience on the front end because MVP and startup space is incredibly competitive nowadays. We have to be thinking through, I think, more than what we did maybe ten years ago when we were delivering MVPs for startups. So we're focusing more on the front end. We're focusing more on the user experience. And we're thinking through how we can utilize existing tooling on the back end to support the products that we're building, which we assume is going to require a lot less particular expertise and a back-end language like Rails and a lot more openness to making decisions that make the most sense for that product idea in particular so whether that's pulling together existing tools on the back end.
\n\nCHAD: Well, I find it useful to think about...or one way to articulate this is mobile apps in particular because some people might not get the distinction with a web app the difference between the front end and the back end. I think it's maybe a little bit more obvious with things like React and that kind of thing. But if you take a mobile app, for example, in order to actually build and launch a mobile app, we typically need to build the mobile app, and then that mobile app needs to talk to servers on the backside.
\n\nAnd put quite plainly, if we have a Rails developer on the project and a mobile developer on the project, that's two people. And if instead, we can have a mobile developer who is putting together some back-end services from companies like Google or Twilio or those kinds of things, to get to the next stage of the company, it's going to be a lot cheaper and potentially faster for the stage that that company is at if it makes sense then. That doesn't mean that they won't ever need a back end of their own, right?
\n\nDAWN: Yeah. Well, and I'm learning more and more too that making those kinds of decisions now doesn't necessarily mean that I can't scale, even with the services that we pull together for the back end at that time when we do the initial launch. AWS, for instance, has a ton of capability for initial launches and for scaling. So there are a lot of options. That's what's become more important to us when we think through the development expertise on our team is not only experience with delivering early-stage products, because you're in that mindset, but openness to working with different technologies that would allow you to, like you're saying, plug into these different tools and servers and systems that already working for a particular industry, for instance.
\n\nI mean, e-commerce is one that you think of where we definitely don't want to be reinventing any wheels there. [laughs] From a conceptual perspective, yes, and from a competitive perspective, yes. But from a back-end development and architectural perspective, there's so much that we can utilize that already exists. So yeah, we are hiring. [laughter] I think that was your original question. And we have open developer positions, which is why I was focused on that.
\n\nOur development focuses less around what you've historically seen at thoughtbot, which is we need Rails developers. We need full-stack developers who can for sure stand up a custom back end. And we've shifted to...we definitely need to focus on the front end. We need that expertise. And we need some adaptability around back-end tooling and being able to pull stuff together that way.
\n\nCHAD: So you were the Managing Director of the Austin studio. And now you're the Managing Director of the Ignite team. Before that, you were a designer. How has this transition compared to prior transitions that you've been a part of?
\n\nDAWN: I think the biggest difference, and this has been just as challenging as it has been rewarding, and I think positive for our business, is the fact that I can focus on expanding our services and expanding our expertise in this one area. Before, we had the local studios, and we could work across the entire product lifecycle. And from a sales and business development perspective, that both gave me varied experience. And it gave me a lot of levers to pull, especially with the teams and making sure that we were all working on different things and able to cycle through different types of projects. But that's hard to do, and it's a lot of work. [laughs] And being able to focus on one stage of the product lifecycle and a set of clients, and expand our expertise in that area has been really challenging and really rewarding.
\n\nWe've been able to sink our teeth in and imagine what possibilities are here and explore markets that we haven't before and actually think through how we can build partnerships with people and really become experts in this space in a way that we haven't been able to in the past because there hasn't been dedicated time and dedicated effort in particular. So the transition has been really great in that way. I'm really excited about it.
\n\nCHAD: Well, that's good. [laughter] You were out on parental leave for a fair amount of time. How long was it in total?
\n\nDAWN: About four months.
\n\nCHAD: Welcome back, by the way.
\n\nDAWN: Thank you.
\n\nCHAD: I'm curious on your perspective either with Ignite or maybe even more so thoughtbot overall. How was it being away, and what surprised you when you came back?
\n\nDAWN: So a couple of things, we were a smaller team in the beginning of this year. We knew that we were going to have to be iterative with our approach to refining our positioning as a team and understanding all these things that we're talking about, like our clients and our customers, and who we're going to work with, how we're going to work with them, how we're going to deliver value. We knew that we were going to have to be iterative. So we went through some phases this year. We were experimental and applied our validation processes to Ignite as a business. And we learned a ton of stuff. And we're going in a great direction. And then I was out for four months [laughter], and so there was a gap. And I tried very hard not to check my email. I mostly did a good job of it.
\n\nAnd so I was telling Diana, our CEO, earlier that I feel a little bit like we're going into 2022 with a fresh start even though we have this whole year behind us that we learned from. We got to a point where we're going in a particular direction now. And we validated enough and felt strongly enough about the direction that we're going in that we're hitting the ground running now going into next year. And I don't know what I assumed; maybe I assumed that we would have established a little bit more this year in the direction that we initially intended. And it's not like a far departure. It's just that it's certainly evolved beyond what I was imagining initially from the technical perspective, for instance.
\n\nCHAD: Well, even in Ignite, which is pretty short client cycles, we're not so huge. [chuckles] Ignite might do 12 projects in a year, and that might be a lot. So we get a lot of opportunities to try new things. And the cycle time isn't that long, but it's not super-fast pace, and it's not super high volume. So it does take some time to refine things based on what we learn, even in Ignite, which is typically faster cycles.
\n\nDAWN: Yeah, that's true. If you think of it that way, a lot of our projects if we're doing an MVP launch, for instance, it's about a quarter along. And if we only do a couple of those every quarter, it takes those whole cycles to be able to look at things in retrospect. I agree; it takes a little bit longer to learn overall.
\n\nI like the way that you put it, too, like when you really look back and think of it, even though we do a lot of what you would consider rapid projects, it's still going to take some time to learn. And I think overall, and I think this is true for all of our teams and our whole company, the year has been so positive. And we've learned so much. And everyone is feeling really strong, I think, in their positioning in going forward into the next year. Again, it's been good. It's been certainly challenging [laughs] but good.
\n\nCHAD: I think there have been certain things about this year that have been challenging, and we've talked about it on previous episodes, some of them. But just in general, I think I got the sense that we transitioned from being tired of the current pandemic situation and working situation to actually being upset and angry about it, which was a really weird transition. And I think it just made work in general challenging sometimes.
\n\nWe also had the challenges of fairly high turnover this year at the company like a lot of companies have had. The reasons why it happens at thoughtbot might be different than other companies, but it's something that people in general have. And sometimes that can make it hard to get ahead, but because we were having such a positive year overall, it was this weird dichotomy of general success and positive change and all that stuff. But at the same time, people were still leaving the company, and that can make it challenging.
\n\nThe silver lining is for a team like Ignite, even though that can be super challenging, you're in your early days, and now you're getting the opportunity to...the new people being added to the team are doing it with different expectations, and you're able to shape the team into what it needs to be today.
\n\nDAWN: Yeah. There has been an interesting...it seems like there was an influx this year and excitement and readiness to get back into building products and working on their ideas from a client perspective, but our teams were just coming off of a very hard year. People were coming off of a very hard year. So a lot of exhausted people trying to show up and be positive and work through all this excitement and movement in the industry. So it's kind of like parental leave. [laughter] Totally exhausted, but you're showing up, so it's good.
\n\nCHAD: Well, Dawn, thanks for stopping by the show, and joining me, and talking to me about Ignite and beyond. I really appreciate it.
\n\nDAWN: Yeah, this has been really fun.
\n\nCHAD: If folks want to get in touch with you or follow along with you, where are the different places that they can do that?
\n\nDAWN: Let's see. Well, I have an email address that is dawn@thoughtbot.com. I have a Twitter. I'm pretty sure that my handle is @dawndig. [laughter] Why I don't know this off the top of my head. I haven't looked at my handle in a very long time. Yeah, @dawndig, so D-A-W-N-D-I-G. LinkedIn is just my name, and it's pronounced Delatte.
\n\nCHAD: And you can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
Special Guest: Dawn Delatte.
Sponsored By:
Chad interviews Kirsten Hurley, Managing Director of thoughtbot's Launchpad II team. The Launchpad II team covers the EMEA area: that's Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. She talks about working remotely for almost the entire time she's worked with the company, her approach to talking with potential customers when she knows she's never going to meet them in person, and what she sees happening to the different geographies that thoughtbot is selling and expanding into.
\n\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Kirsten Hurley, Managing Director of thoughtbot's Launchpad II team. Kirsten, thanks for joining me.
\n\nKIRSTEN: Thanks for having me on, Chad.
\n\nCHAD: So I've now talked with a few managing directors at thoughtbot about the new team that they're leading. So I think listeners are probably expecting what's coming next which is, you know, why don't you give people a little bit of an overview of what the Launchpad II team, which has a slightly different name than the other teams we've talked to so far, do?
\n\nKIRSTEN: Sure. So I guess maybe to remind some folks, so Launchpad I refers to the Americas. So you've already spoken to a few of the managing directors who head up different teams across the Americas. You have different propositions. Over in Launchpad II, which historically was the London studio when we were working in a physical office environment, we are a smaller team than everyone else who was based over in the Americas.
\n\nSo we didn't quite scale out to be able to have individual teams working on particular propositions. But I think what the team had been successfully doing anyway was working across everything. And we still do work on Ignite-style projects, Lift Off, and Boost engagements as well. So yeah, that's where we've got to. And I think maybe the changes for us is that since we've gone to fully remote working and officially called ourselves the EMEA Launchpad II team, we've started hiring folks from further afield, which is really exciting for me.
\n\nCHAD: So not everyone may be familiar with the acronym, although it's fairly common, EMEA. So what regions does that actually cover?
\n\nKIRSTEN: [laughs] Sorry. So that's Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. And I should say we were already working with clients pretty much fully across the region anyway. It was just never really official. But I think the more global terminology is Europe, the Middle East, and Africa or EMEA. But because we're thoughtbot and we like to do things a little bit...well, we like to own our things. So we've called it Launchpad II to go with the rocket theme that we had in our rebranding. What was that? The end of last year I think we came up with it all.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. So what has it been like to go from a team of people that were...[laughs] actually, as I ask this question I realized that you joined a week before the pandemic started, and we had to go remote. So I was going to ask you what it was like to go from a team of people that were going to a studio every day all based in London to a remote team. [laughs] But you never really experienced the alternative.
\n\nKIRSTEN: [laughs] No. I think the most time I spent with the team as a whole was actually in my interview process [laughs] before I even started in person I should say. That was a pretty interesting week. You had flown over from Boston [chuckles] to spend some time getting me all set up and running. And I think it was the Wednesday where you and I had a bit of a chat, and we were concerned about this virus that was going around and the duty of care that we actually had to our teams across the world from a point of view of them commuting to work, and it didn't feel right. And so I think we made the decision that day that from the following week, everyone would start working from home. And I think we thought it would just be for a few weeks, and we'd see how it went. So yeah, it was interesting for sure. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Right. And I remember what happened is I went to...I usually leave on a Friday when I visit, but a few of us, I think, went to a pub or something on...we were planning on doing that on Friday. So I was going to leave on Saturday morning, and I did. But I woke up on Saturday morning ready to catch my flight to the news that the U.S. had shut down all flights from the UK or from Europe, was what the headline said. And I was like, oh no, [laughter] I might be stuck here. And then when you actually read the article, it said actually the UK is exempt and also U.S. citizens were exempt, so they can get back. I remember waking up that morning and having a fright that I was going to be stuck there and made it back safely, thankfully. So the U.S. then went remote that following week if I remember the timeline right.
\n\nIt was an interesting time. And like you said, we thought it was going to be temporary, relatively short, but it wasn't. And then, at the end of last year, we decided that we would be going completely fully remote, and that was pretty exciting. I think for folks, it was obviously...unexpected is probably the wrong word because we couldn't be in person anyway. But it wasn't what people were necessarily expecting when they joined thoughtbot. People join because we often, or at least they have the expectation that we're in an office together. But it's been exciting for Launchpad II because it means that you can now and are hiring people much differently and further afield than you were in the past, right?
\n\nKIRSTEN: Yeah, and even actually working with partners further afield as well. So we have some great partnerships still in the UK but actually working with some of your cohorts from AgencyU, your coaching program, Subvisual over in Portugal, and a couple of others as well. That's been really great to work with those teams as well.
\n\nCHAD: Having come into a new team as in a leadership position and being, basically as we've said, entirely remote almost from day one, how has that been for you?
\n\nKIRSTEN: Certainly, it wasn't the plan. [laughs] So I think my last few roles were very much working based in an office. And so my background is commercial and sales, account management. And I was very used to building rapport with teams and clients in person. So I had joined thoughtbot and joined the London studio as it was then but Launchpad II with a remit to grow the business. So I think you had been looking after the team for about a year, giving us a great foundation to then really grow.
\n\nAnd coming in, this black swan event had happened in the world, so the priorities changed overnight. And it was okay; how do I keep this team safe? Is everyone set up to be successful in their role? And also our existing clients and our existing projects, are they supported in the right way? This is a shock to them as well. I think, at thoughtbot, we're very lucky that from a point of view of asynchronous communication and remote working practices, being a global company, it wasn't such a shock to the system, but for some of our clients, it was. So we had to make sure that they were supported. And in some cases, we showed them what good looks like.
\n\nBut rather than focusing on new business and growing straight away, it was really a period of stabilization, I would say, for about three to six months while everyone got used to what was an evolving situation, but we came through it. And I have to say a huge thank you to the team actually for their kindness and patience with me and learning remotely everything about thoughtbot that I was so excited to become a part of. But also, learning a leadership style over Zoom wasn't really what I thought I was going to be doing.
\n\nCHAD: Well, you mentioned selling a lot of what you had done previously was relationship building with clients in person or potential clients in person. Is there anything that stands out to you in terms of how you've needed to adjust either your style or your approach when talking with potential customers when you know you're never going to meet them in person?
\n\nKIRSTEN: I'm not sure you can really change your personality per se because I am always interested in building rapport through understanding an individual's motives and what they're passionate about. And quite often, those conversations can be things outside of work, so talking with clients about maybe going up for runs and things like that and personal bests and things just because that's a natural thing to talk to someone about. I still very much make room for those kinds of things in calls.
\n\nBecause I think in a consultancy relationship, people buy people, and people want to work with people who understand them. And while the majority of that is obviously people understanding your job and the product that you want to be building as well, I think you need to have that personal element. So while it felt a bit stilted over Zoom to make that time, I think that it's worth it in the long run.
\n\nCHAD: That's a really good point. I think if you're not careful about it, it's very easy to just get right to business in a call as opposed to when you're meeting someone in person you need to walk to a conference room or something, and it naturally lends itself to some small talk.
\n\nKIRSTEN: Exactly, that bit where you're riding in the lift together.
\n\nCHAD: And I think that that probably applies to sales as much as it does our team members too.
\n\nKIRSTEN: Absolutely. Funnily enough, I was talking with our Development Director here, Rob Whittaker, the other day about one-to-ones should not be really that much talking about your client project. It's obviously important to make sure that someone is happy and they're being successful in their work. But actually, what's going on behind the scenes and understanding that within your team is probably just as important, if not more so, like you say.
\n\nCHAD: So tell us a little bit about some of the interesting work that's happening in Launchpad II.
\n\nKIRSTEN: Well, we've got a couple of flagship clients that keep on growing for us, which is really great, actually. They're effectively partnerships, really at this point. And so, one of those clients is a large financial service institution where we were building APIs for all of the COVID loan schemes. And I think the last I checked, the amount of money that had flowed through that system and the loans approved was something over £75 billion. So for a pretty small development team, it's really impressive what they've achieved over that time. So that's a team of three developers in a Boost-style engagement, so like Josh's team over in the U.S. working on a Rails project and working alongside business analysts from the team and other stakeholders there as well.
\n\nAnd so over in the Middle East, we have a food delivery client, so they're actually a huge brand over there. And we had started working with them nearly two years ago now on creating a mobile app for their customers. So we've been adding to features, getting that released. And obviously, with what's happened in the last 18 months, food delivery is a sector where you've seen huge growth. And that's even led to us recently looking at re-engineering the platform and making sure that we're still managing to delight their customers as well with their user experience.
\n\nAnd we've even been working on some Ignite-style projects too. So there's a lot of startups, a lot of folks have been at home thinking about what is this new business? What's the impact I'm going to have on the world? And most recently, we've been running some product design sprints with a wellness brand who are looking at bringing a different type of wellness to the market. And again, that's a mobile app which we're really excited to be working on.
\n\nCHAD: Have you seen the different geographies both from the U.S. and UK...what do you see happening to the different geographies that you're selling into and expanding into? Are there any notable differences you would call out?
\n\nKIRSTEN: I think the biggest difference that I see between clients in the Americas and over here in Europe, the Middle East, Africa would be the funding levels for startups and the expectations around that. It seems like a more mature market from a point of view of being able to get a decent budget to really build a meaningful platform for first release over in the Americas, whereas over here, it's a bit leaner definitely [laughs] on the startup side of things. So I think that's probably the biggest challenge we have when talking with clients and making sure we can give them the bang for the buck, as it were. So making sure that the research that we did, that the designers do, for example, is focused on the right thing and really gives them the insight that they need to have the confidence to progress and invest in that build. Or whether they actually need to go back and do more before they actually start spending on the development side of things.
\n\nCHAD: I would definitely second that. And one thing that I noticed not only were the amounts different in the U.S. and the UK, but it seems like in the U.S., when you're talking with a founder, there's more often than not other people they need to check in with in order to make a decision. And when I was talking to founders in the UK and beyond and in Europe, what I often felt was that there was actually someone that they needed to check in with and get permission from or that was holding the purse strings or something. And that might be a cultural thing as well, far less likely to just make a decision with you in the meeting saying, "Yeah, we're going to work together." There was always, for me, a lot more back and forth, and checking and permission getting around decisions that are being made.
\n\nKIRSTEN: Yeah, I would agree with that.
\n\nCHAD: Is that something that you've seen too?
\n\nKIRSTEN: I think so. It's interesting because what we've started doing recently actually...sometimes through the product design sprints but even in the sales process, if a founder does know or does realize in those conversations that they're going to need to find an additional source of money to be able to fund it, conversations have gone more into how can we help them with their pitch deck as well? And I think I've seen this with the Ignite team over in the Americas as well, to be fair. The prototypes that we build, very early-stage prototypes, where we're testing and doing the user research those go into the pitch decks now to give potential investors greater confidence as well if that's the route that they go down.
\n\nMIDROLL AD
\n\nCHAD: I wanted to tell you all about something I’ve been working on quietly for the past year or so, and that’s AgencyU.
\n\nAgencyU is a membership-based program where I work one on one with a small group of Agency founders and leaders toward their business goals. We do one-on-one coaching sessions, and also monthly group meetings. We start with goal setting, advice, and problem solving based on my experiences over the last 18 years of running thoughtbot. As we progress as a group, we all get to know each other more and many of the AgencyU members are now working on client projects together and referring work to each other.
\n\nWhether you’re struggling to grow your agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in my 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot I’ve seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and I’d be happy to work with you.
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\n\nCHAD: What do you think is next for Launchpad II? As you look ahead, what do you see, and what do you want to accomplish?
\n\nKIRSTEN: Well, so it's budget season [chuckles] at thoughtbot at the moment. So we've just gone through our first iteration of what that might look like. And we are super keen to make the most of what we've built over, certainly in my time, the last 18 months. We've had great commercial success, and we've grown existing clients. We've brought on a couple of new ones. And we've really matured our team as well from the point of view of what we think works for our clients and what we get the greatest fulfillment in as well.
\n\nSo I think in that first card, we would like to grow the team by an additional ten folks, and that's working across design, development, and product management as well. So that's something new that we brought in this year. We had our first product manager join the team, and that's been a huge success as well. It's something that everyone at thoughtbot working on projects had assumed responsibility collectively for, but actually, some projects really need that nominated person. So I'm excited to grow that team as well as the other ones.
\n\nAnd I think looking ahead for our hiring as well building a more geographically diverse team as well that better reflects our client base. So we currently have clients in the Middle East; as I mentioned, we've got France, Germany, and a few more UK-centric ones as well. So it would be great to build a more diverse team from a point of view of life experience. Because as we well know, the more diverse a team, the greater the empathy for a broader range of human experience, and that leads to great products as well.
\n\nCHAD: Well, speaking of hiring, you do have a bunch of open positions in Launchpad II now. And we probably can't stress enough that those positions are open to anybody, anywhere in Europe, the Middle East, Africa. And we'd love for people to apply from across all of those places and including an apprenticeship opening, right?
\n\nKIRSTEN: Oh, absolutely. I would also encourage people to reach out to me as well if they're not sure whether they would maybe qualify for the role. I think we do a lot of work on our job descriptions to make sure that they are as approachable as possible. But nonetheless, if someone isn't sure, then please do just reach out to me. And we can have an informal chat before the more formal process starts. I'm more than happy to have a 15-minute call with someone and just answer any questions too.
\n\nCHAD: Well, on that note, I'm interested in your perspective, especially as someone relatively new to the team. Coming in externally, you have a perspective that maybe someone who's been here a long time doesn't have quite as fresh a perspective. But what do you think makes people a good fit for thoughtbot?
\n\nKIRSTEN: From what I've learned from the team over the last 18 months or so, there's obviously a passion for creating great software. But I think what really seems to resonate with folks is feeling like they're a part of something bigger, so open source contributions, contributing to potentially clients who've got some social good agenda. Those kinds of things are pretty important to people. And working with even people who have empathy for each other and who envisage those values we have around earning, imparting, and summoning trust.
\n\nI think we've all been through a pretty tough time over the last 18 months. And the level of compassion that everyone has shown each other has been incredible. And the patience, as I've mentioned before, is great. And I think everyone just wants to pull together for positive outcomes, whether it's within the team, whether it's for clients. What would be your old school view then, Chad, as a founder of what, 18 years ago? [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. I think the other thing that I would call out that maybe isn't explicitly in the values, which people can read about at thoughtbot.com/purpose, is designers, and especially developers at thoughtbot, are not what you might typically envision a developer to be in that developers at thoughtbot are expected to be able to talk directly to clients and work directly with clients. And that's not an expectation everywhere.
\n\nSo, people who like talking with people about problems and collaborating to solve problems, not everyone is a fit for that. And one of the things we look for in the hiring process is those communication skills, and the ability to have those conversations, and to weigh trade-offs, and be a consultant, and all of those things. So someone who enjoys doing that in the process of building a great product is something that I would call out.
\n\nKIRSTEN: Yeah, I think that's a really good point. Collaboration is huge for us, always has been. And obviously, the way that that works has changed slightly with the move to remote working. But I think thoughtbot is the least hierarchical consultancy that I've ever worked for in that everyone is encouraged to give their opinions and discuss challenges with clients very openly.
\n\nEveryone is encouraged to contribute. It's not just the senior developers or the team leads who are making decisions. Everyone makes a decision together. And I think that's incredibly empowering for people maybe who haven't had that opportunity before. Sometimes it takes folks a little while to grow in their confidence and believe that it's true. But it's really nice to see when people who join us start coming out of their shells and really get a sense of satisfaction from genuinely being a part of a really constructive team.
\n\nCHAD: And the other thing that I often say is really important, not necessarily to being hired at thoughtbot but being really successful here, is being able to lift your head up from the particular client project that you are on right now and to see and get excited by the bigger picture of what's going on. So that might be noticing patterns in the way that we're implementing something that will lead to the creation of an open-source project or a product to solve that need. It could be if you really love thinking about engineering or design best practices and getting the chance to experiment with them in your work, that's going to make you really successful at thoughtbot over the long term.
\n\nBecause we do great work on clients’ projects, but our actual product that we're selling goes far beyond the lines of code or the design that we produce. You said it yourself earlier, people buy our people, and our process, and our culture. That's what people are making decisions about whether to work with us or someone else over. And so we have an opportunity to be working on improving the company, and our processes, and our engineering practices, and all that stuff, and it makes us a better company. So the people who are able to do that tend to be very successful and grow into leadership positions and those kinds of things.
\n\nKIRSTEN: Yeah, I would agree with that. So I was actually going to ask you, Chad, what are your hopes and dreams for the Launchpad II team? We obviously have a few conversations here and there. But it's good to know from your experience, having worked with the team before I came along, maybe it's interesting for people listening what you think the potential is.
\n\nCHAD: I think that there is a lot of potential, and I think that it's probably no surprise that I think that, to be honest. [chuckles] I'm very excited by the ability to expand throughout a larger region and to bring new team members on as well as new clients on, and the way that that's working now is really great. It's not that the way that we were working before wasn't good. There are pros and cons to every way of working. And the pros now are being able to hire people no matter where they live and to have the expectation that we're able to work with these clients remotely everywhere.
\n\nAnd we're getting the chance to be involved in a lot of really cool exciting things and with cool, exciting people because we're doing that. And I do this and have done it for so long because of the cool, exciting things that we do with the cool, exciting people that we do them with. So that is what I'm really excited by. And the thing from a business perspective and a team perspective that I keep on reminding people of and pushing people towards is the team structure that we have in the Americas was created at a certain point because the number of people in the Americas made sense to have a breakdown and have some focus. And that focus is proving very positive.
\n\nIt's not that in Launchpad II, we're not doing a good job on our client work. It's not that people aren't fulfilled in their work. But what we see is when people never know what kind of project they're going to be on next, or are tasked with going from a project where they're doing huge scaling and architecture, and the timelines on things are months, not days, and then you rotate on a project where it's the complete opposite. You're bringing your product to market super quickly. The timelines you're operating on...a ticket you're going to work on now is going to go to production a few minutes later. It's a different skill set.
\n\nAnd not that the people at thoughtbot can't do all of those things, but there is a benefit to being able to excel in the moment of that kind of project that you're on and to be able to raise your hand and say, "You know, I really like this kind of work," and to be able to focus on that. So that's down the road for Launchpad II. That's something that we have to look forward to is the team will eventually get big enough where we're able to say, "Hey, what kind of work do you want to focus on?" It's a transition we've been through in the Americas. Hopefully, we've learned from that.
\n\nAnd the other thing that will be the case for Launchpad II is that it won't necessarily all happen at once. In the Americas, we did it as a reorganization, and it all happened at once. But in Launchpad II, it can happen more organically where we say, "There is enough work in this area and enough people now," that we start to focus a little bit and we create a team of people that focuses on Boost-style projects or a team of people that focus on Lift Off-style projects and without worrying about also needing to create those other teams at the same time. So we should do it more organically. I'm excited. I'm looking forward to that process. I'm not exactly sure when it will happen. But I think it will be an indicator of the growth and success that we've had in Launchpad II.
\n\nKIRSTEN: We're certainly watching all of the great experiments that are happening over in Launchpad I in the different teams, looking at the learnings that are coming out of all of the different things. And yeah, I think it's giving us a lot of food for thought right now as to how will that work for us and how will it work for the clients that we work with as well? Because that's the other thing we mentioned before about the maturity of the startup market, et cetera. So we may need to organize ourselves a little bit differently to be able to serve them. So it will be interesting, as you say when we get to the scale, that that's appropriate, which I hope is going to be sooner rather than later. [laughs] So yeah, it's going to be an interesting challenge.
\n\nAnd I agree with you on the organic thing as well. I think it might be a case where some folks want to actually try out some different types of things. Maybe the newer folks who join us next year may not know what gives them the most fulfillment. But that's also another great thing about thoughtbot generally is that nothing is permanent. [laughs] And if we find a better way to do something, then we'll always twist rather than stick.
\n\nCHAD: I like that saying. That's cool. You're right to call out that a lot of the improvements that I've talked about are from a team perspective and an individual perspective. But a big driver of that was from the client-side, and we see lots of benefits there too. And you called out that we have project managers now. And that's been successful in a way that project management at thoughtbot has never been successful before.
\n\nAnd part of it is when everything was the same in all of the individual studios, not every project would benefit from a project manager. And if we only have one project and that happens to not be a full-time project for a project manager, it wasn't enough work. But when we can coalesce a team together and a client base together that needs a certain kind of thing consistently, then we're better able to support that which makes our work for the clients better as well. And so that's also been a really good area of improvement for us.
\n\nKIRSTEN: Yeah, I think it's interesting to consider product management in the industry as well. I think it's matured quite significantly whether thoughtbot was doing that or not. I think product management generally is a far more important role than it ever used to be because clients themselves invest in those roles a lot more than they used to.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, and I think that I realized...I just caught myself in a mistake. Was I saying project management before?
\n\nKIRSTEN: [laughs] I should have corrected you. I wasn't entirely sure if I'd misheard you across the pond here.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] Okay. That was a mistake.
\n\nKIRSTEN: I think a few of us still make that mistake.
\n\nCHAD: Yes. Actually, that's a really good thing. I caught myself doing it just because they're similar words. But I totally meant product management and not project management. And there are two different things, two distinct things that I think it's important to make that distinction clear. So what is the distinction between those two things, Kirsten?
\n\nKIRSTEN: [laughs] And now it's my turn to tie myself in knots a little bit. It's because product management; I think the first thing you go to is thinking about someone who's responsible for maintaining a product roadmap. And I know that that's a spicy conversation to get into sometimes because you don't want them to be so resolutely set at the outset of a project. But you need someone who's got one eye on the end goal.
\n\nAnd sometimes, when you've got a team of developers and designers working to some pretty aggressive timelines, and deep in technical problems and solving challenges, that person who helicopters out and looks across everything and retains the broader context of the overall program or the overall client objectives, and can hold the team true to that is really important strategically for the success of a project.
\n\nBut I think; actually, you also need to be flexible and listen to the designers and developers when something that was on the roadmap is disproved somehow or is not viable for whatever reason, whether that's because of end-user research or just technically [chuckles] it's too challenging for the budget available to the clients. So then being able to talk with the client as a whole team but lead that discussion and help them understand the recommendations that are being made. I think we've seen that work really well in our team here this year.
\n\nCHAD: And I think an important distinction as well is that some of our clients look to us to make those decisions on their behalf, not all of them but some of them. And that's one of the things that distinguishes a product manager and someone who's making decisions about what the product even is versus a project manager who it's much more about the day-to-day tasks, making sure the backlog is organized, tickets are clear, things are moving along, meetings are scheduled, that kind of thing. And it's much less about the product actually being built.
\n\nKIRSTEN: Absolutely.
\n\nCHAD: Well, I think that brings us at about time. If folks want to get in touch with you, apply to those positions, where are the best places for them to do that?
\n\nKIRSTEN: Well, my email is kirsten@thoughtbot.com. And I am on LinkedIn, Kirsten Hurley, pretty searchable,I think going Kirsten Hurley in thoughtbot. Those are the best ways to get ahold of me.
\n\nCHAD: And I think people can check out all those jobs and apply at thoughtbot.com/jobs. You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks, Mandy. And thank you for listening, listener. See you next time.
Special Guest: Kirsten Hurley.
Sponsored By:
Chad interviews Managing Director at thoughtbot, Joshua Clayton, about what a Managing Director at thoughtbot does, what makes Boost at thoughtbot different than other teams, and the belief in integrated teams of designers and developers company-wide.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Josh Clayton, Managing Director of the thoughtbot Boost team. Hey, I know that company. Welcome, Josh.
\n\nJOSH: Hey, Chad. How are you?
\n\nCHAD: All right. I'm back to the show I think. I didn't get a chance to look up the last episode you're in, but it was probably hundreds of episodes ago now.
\n\nJOSH: Yeah, it's got to have been a while.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] Speaking of a while, you recently…now time is all messed up for me, but I know that you have been at thoughtbot for a long time. How long has it been?
\n\nJOSH: It was 12 years in August.
\n\nCHAD: It's been a wonderful 12 years, Josh.
\n\nJOSH: I agree. I agree.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJOSH: It's been fun.
\n\nCHAD: So in that time, you have had a few different roles. But you've been a Managing Director for a while now.
\n\nJOSH: Yeah, I think that's...let's see. It was seven and a half years for the Boston team. And then it's 10 and a half months with Boost.
\n\nCHAD: So your background is as a developer. And you, like a lot of people who have a background as developers at thoughtbot, myself included, still do development on a fairly regular basis. What does the Managing Director job at thoughtbot actually do?
\n\nJOSH: What don't we do [laughter] is maybe a better question. Effectively, we're running that team's business. So it involves some amount of software consulting. It involves software sales. It involves managing the profitability of the team. There are marketing functions, and, I don't know, anything and everything, hiring-related things. We opened up and recently filled our Development Director position, which was open for a couple of months over the summer. We've just opened up a Design Director position. So it's everything. [laughs] It's everything it feels like.
\n\nCHAD: At the beginning of this year, we did an episode about the changes that we had made at thoughtbot to reorganize the teams around rather than geographic studios around the types of work that we would do on that team. And that's how the Boost team was created. So in that episode, we gave people an overview. But I'd love to hear in your own words, what makes Boost at thoughtbot different than the other teams, and what do you focus on?
\n\nJOSH: So what makes Boost different? I think one of the drivers, one of the motivators, is to embed alongside existing product teams, engineering, and design teams, and help them get better, help them grow as well as ship features and fix bugs. So I think that the way that I position it is if there's an existing product that's deployed, people are using it day in and day out. Hopefully, it's been battle-tested. There are probably some funky areas of the code. Those are the codebases that we're operating in. It might be a team of two people; it might be a team of 200 people. But there is an existing product and an existing team. They're looking for our support to help make it better.
\n\nCHAD: One of the things I love about Boost and the changes that we've made, especially relative to Boost, is that at thoughtbot, we really believe in integrated teams of designers and developers. And a big part of what we've always done has been to be a complete product design and development team that brings new products to market, big and small. And because we were one of the first consulting companies in the world to switch to Ruby on Rails and because of that deep experience with Rails, and scaling, and working on existing products, we had a significant number of customers who engaged us for development for that expertise, and to help them scale, and grow, and hire, and implement best practices or solve problems that they were having in their existing codebase or on their existing team.
\n\nAnd even though that was a significant part of our business, it was always something that seemed that we maybe even didn't really want to be doing it, or it was on the periphery of our marketing and positioning. And I was super excited when we officially created this team because it allowed us to acknowledge that this was a significant part of what we do, a significant part of our revenue, and to have a team of people that opted into doing this kind of work who would not only love the kind of work but want to even grow it and do more of it. And we haven't really had that for this kind of work. We've had individuals wanting to do it but not at an organizational level in an organization that supports it. That was more of a statement than a question, but reaction?
\n\nJOSH: [laughs] I think you're spot on. It's always been interesting to me to hear that it's...obviously, at thoughtbot, we have been building MVPs and working with a lot of different types of companies over the years and helping them launch products. But I think that the type of work that I and, ideally, obviously, other people on the Boost team enjoy working on is existing platforms and working alongside existing teams. We talk about legacy systems, and I think they get a bad rap. And it's like, no, it's battle-tested.
\n\nCHAD: [chuckles]
\n\nJOSH: The business has proven its viability. It is still around years later. Conway's law applies in all of the stuff. Again, there are gnarly aspects of the code. But I think that's what the folks on the Boost team enjoy being challenged by is problems where these things are larger systems. They've been around for a while, and they do get pretty gnarly.
\n\nCHAD: I think one of the things that held us back in the past is that it is a skill set, and it's an experience. And you are going to be on an MVP project where you're doing design and development, going from concept to launching of a new idea, usually in a matter of weeks, working directly with a founder or a team of co-founders. And then you rotate on to this significantly larger project with maybe an engineering team of tens or dozens or hundreds of other developers on it. It's a very different skill set, and you have very different challenges in that environment. And when you're constantly switching between those different kinds of projects, you can't necessarily get better at it. And that's one of the other things that I think is helping us be more successful.
\n\nJOSH: I remember one of the teammates had joined the kick-off call with me at the Boost inception that very first meeting. And it was Joël. And Joël had asked pretty straightforwardly, "What is the expectation in terms of project rotations?" Because I think historically across the company, we'd aimed to do two to four-month engagements before we'd rotate folks. And I told him point-blank it's going to be six months to a year probably. And I don't think it necessarily shocked him or other folks on the team.
\n\nBut I think when you're going into existing codebases and working alongside existing teams, there is inherently politics at play and complexities at play where it might take you being a new developer on a team six weeks, maybe longer before you actually feel comfortable and confident navigating the codebase and knowing where you can have and make an impact. And so, I think some of the shifts there have been particularly interesting to watch the types of consulting conversations that we have within the team just because it is a different beast, I think than building and launching products.
\n\nCHAD: So let's get into a little bit of detail about the kinds of projects we're doing in Boost to the extent that we can give specific examples and maybe more importantly and relevant to the audience, what are the things that we see? What are the common challenges that we see as products grow and evolve, as teams grow and evolve? What do you think one of the most common challenges that people have is?
\n\nJOSH: As teams grow and evolve, I think a lot of teams run into onboarding issues and general knowledge sharing. I think when you start a small team, and you're two, three, maybe five engineers, it's pretty easy for everyone to keep probably the entirety or the majority of that domain in their head at any one time. As you work to scale a team...there's a client of ours right now where they're effectively doubling every...I don't know what the time period is, but they're growing very, very rapidly.
\n\nAnd the feedback that some of our team have provided to them is it's really hard, and there are very much knowledge silos. And they're working through, okay? How do we tease this out? How do we share this context so that you don't have a couple of folks that are effectively blocking every single other member of the team? And so that's one of the core areas that hangs up our team and other teams. [chuckles] Our clients bring us on, and a lot of times, it's like we're rip-roaring and ready to go. And it's like, I need information from a bunch of people, and the processes aren't in place such that we can be as effective as we would want to be given the nature of work that we're doing.
\n\nCHAD: I think that's a straightforward problem, and it's a good example...I don't want to make this an hour-long thoughtbot commercial. But I'll just point blank say one of the reasons why sometimes working with us is positive for clients is it's really easy to have a certain pain around your onboarding process or company, even just simple things like how long it takes to get a new person a computer or to ramp them up on their existing team. If you're just hiring an employee, it's easy to ignore the cost of that.
\n\nJOSH: Yes.
\n\nCHAD: But when you're bringing on thoughtbot and we have a specific start date, and it's a certain cost, and those kinds of things, it can really expose the pain that is already happening but was just being ignored and provide the impetus to actually fix the problem.
\n\nJOSH: One of the things that we try to set out to do on the first day for any project is to open up a pull request to the codebase, whether it's an improvement to the onboarding like the README for the repository or whatever it might be. Ideally, we are finding ways to contribute on day one. And sometimes, that's frankly not realistic for individual contributors doing it from their own machines. But oftentimes, we'll know that going in. And as we onboard new folks and things like that, we'll say, okay, well, day one is going to be your pair programming over Tuple or some other tool so that you are able to engage and interact with a team and work on the code, even if there's still a bit of a lag between GitHub access and everything else that's the base of onboarding steps.
\n\nCHAD: So another common one that people bring us on to help with is scaling challenges in terms of the actual product itself, maybe that's performance or other scaling challenges. I'm working on a project now where that was how we first got involved. The service was failing, and it was only getting worse under the increasing scale. So, what are some tips that you have for how to effectively solve some of those problems while not bringing everything else that you need to accomplish to a screeching halt?
\n\nJOSH: At the end of the day, you can't fix something that you don't know is broken. Or you might have a hunch in terms of, oh, I know this page or this set of pages are slow. I think so much of what we see is teams come in, and they're like, "We don't have New Relic setup." We don't have an instrumentation setup. So they can't measure anything. And so it's like, I know this page takes three or four seconds to paint, but I don't know why. And I don't know how to fix it. It's like, okay, well, the first thing that we need to do is set up some amount of performance monitoring and application tracking just to get a sense of what that's like.
\n\nThere is a potential customer who had reached out back in January of this year. So this was weeks into Boost's inception. And they said, "Listen, we've got some performance-related issues. We don't really know what to do, but we know the application is really, really slow on these couple of pages." It's like, "Are you using New Relic, or Scout, or anything like that?" They're like, "No." It's like, okay, that's the first thing that you need to do.
\n\nAnd they came back about a month ago and were like, okay, "Here's the access to all of this data. Now we're ready to go," and it's like, "Yes!" They probably didn't need to wait for that long. But it really speaks to that in order to address some of the performance-related stuff; we need to have some sense of what is going on and where.
\n\nI know Steph over on The Bike Shed Podcast had talked to Nate Berkopec. And she had floated one of the questions I had had. And he basically schooled me on that podcast and reiterated it really is ultimately about measuring so much of what we're doing.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. One of the things, especially for teams that are having a problem but feel like they don't know what to do it's tough when it's actually the case. But the reality is a lot of times; there’s actually very low-hanging fruit that it's just no one has the time or experience to actually identify that. And putting some monitoring in place combined with actually taking the time to look through it, especially if it's the first time you ever hit scaling problems...There's either a missing database in that index or some N+1 queries, and fortunately, once you identify that kind of problem, it's usually fairly quick to fix as well.
\n\nIt's a different thing when there's maybe fundamental architecture things that are causing your app to have scaling problems. But it's very unlikely that those are the first problems you're ever experiencing. The first problems you're ever going to experience if your app is running slow are going to be things happening at the database level or missing an index or something like that. And it's very unlikely that significant architecture changes need to be put in place in order to fix the first scaling problems that any product usually has.
\n\nJOSH: That wasn't the type, or at least I think when we got brought on, and you were working on your most recent clients, we were well beyond...maybe we weren't, maybe I'm misrepresenting or misremembering, but it feels like we were well beyond some of the low hanging fruit.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, there was a batch of low-hanging fruit. One of the things if you're working on a product that is scaling super rapidly, what can happen is that the low-hanging fruit masks the other problems that are happening there because it all happened too quickly, all at the same time. And that was the case on this project. So it went from having hundreds of people using it to millions of people using it in the span of a month. And so there was low-hanging fruit.
\n\nBut removing the low-hanging fruit didn't make the app suddenly work again; it just made it so that we could look at the metrics and say, "Okay, those things are no longer the problem." The real problems are not being masked now. We now can identify the architectural changes that need to be put into place in order to operate at the scale.
\n\nJOSH: Yeah, it's the low-hanging fruit when the orchard is on fire. [laughter] That is true.
\n\nCHAD: Right. So you got to peel back like an onion. And this is the case with I think a lot of...whether it be a technical challenge or a team challenge. You can't always come in and very quickly solve the root problem. You might not even know what the root problem is. You just have to start solving the problem that is obvious in front of you and learning more. And then you solve that one, and then you expose the next one, and you expose the next one.
\n\nAnd even when you can identify the root problem, you'll be like, this is the problem, and everyone agrees it's the problem. It still might be too hard to actually fix that problem. It might be an organizational or a systemic problem. And instead, you say, "Okay, we have to iteratively solve that problem." And you start peeling back those layers to get to the point where you've positioned yourself to solve that core problem. And I think we face that a lot, particularly as external consultants. We're coming in, and we can't just be the bull in the china shop. Because we haven't built the trust with everyone necessary to make the changes, or we don't know enough to know what the changes need to be.
\n\nJOSH: Right. And I think the people aspect of all of these things in my opinion...and I should caveat this with I've been writing software professionally for almost 20 years. The people, in my opinion, are always the harder aspects to any engagement. It's very rare that we go into a technical project where it's like we literally cannot figure out a technical solution to this thing. We can usually figure it out. And it might take weeks or months to implement, especially as it spans multiple systems. But more often than not, it's really navigating the people and the relationships and building that trust like you had mentioned that is really what will help dictate success within that project.
\n\nCHAD: I have a line that I use fairly often, and it's that I really believe very few, if any, developers sit down and are like, I'm going to write a bad solution today, or I'm going to write bad code today. That's not what people are doing. I think the majority of people genuinely try within their entire capacity to do a good job. And so that means that when I'm coming into a situation where there are problems, or things are messy, or there were bad decisions or bad code written, it can't be chalked up to like, oh, that was a bad developer, or that was a bad choice that was made. There was usually some people or organizational problem that caused that to happen in the first place. And merely fixing the bad code is not going to be what we should focus our time on. We probably need to do that. But if we don't fix the reason for that problem in the first place, it's just going to happen again.
\n\nA really popular example of this is when we get approached to do a Rails upgrade on a very significant product that is very behind with Rails. First of all, it's very expensive to do that on a very significant project if there's no test coverage. People could hire us to spend and spend a lot of money just getting to the next Rails version. But if they do that and don't solve the reason why they were so behind with Rails and have no test coverage and all that stuff, along the way, it will have been wasted effort because in a year or in two years, it will be back to the way that it was before. And that's one example that's very technical. But that kind of stuff happens all the time, even with squishy things [laughs] like the structure of a team or something like that.
\n\nSo if you could give advice to people that are struggling with a particular problem, what would you tell them? And let's maybe make it a little bit more concrete. Like, one thing that can happen is as teams grow, like you said, not everyone can know everything. And so it starts breaking down into pods; maybe is one way to organize the team. And then you've gone into a bunch of individual teams working on discrete features. And that's happening fairly quickly. What are some ways to manage that change and manage that growth while maintaining continuity and making it go well?
\n\nJOSH: I think a lot of it depends on the goals from the technical leadership in terms of areas of ownership. That'd be the first part that I would dive into, I think. We work with clients where they segregate front-end from back-end development. And that allows the teams to focus on React and TypeScript versus Ruby or Go or whatever their back end is written in.
\n\nBut if the goal is to share that knowledge, I think you've got options in terms of lunch and learn and shared code review and team demos and things like that. There are other ways to spread that information across the team so that everybody still has maybe not intimate knowledge of the code that's being written on a day to day basis, but they're at least aware of those patterns and practices and what each of the individual pods is may be responsible for and is delivering. So you have that team cohesion across more of the functional space, on the engineering side or on the product design side.
\n\nCHAD: One thing that I think I would also add is that a lot of times, people take for granted how better developers will do their job if they understand the reason or the business drivers behind what they're working on. And it's really easy for people to take that for granted because it's like, there's a ticket to the ticket. It says what to do on the ticket. [laughs]
\n\nJOSH: I have a blog post about this, actually.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] Okay, great. We'll put that in the show notes. But if someone doesn't understand the reason behind that, it's not going to go the way that you're expecting frequently. It's not as straightforward.
\n\nJOSH: Yeah. You're left guessing what the underlying customer need is. And if you're guessing about the motivations, I don't want to say not in absolutes, but you're likely not going to address all of those core needs and implement an effective solution.
\n\nI think in the blog post that I had written, ultimately, it was advocating for getting engineers to participate in customer interviews and really understand, like, how are people using the product that I am implementing features for? Because without that exposure, without seeing those pain points, oftentimes, it's okay, you've got a product designer or a product manager who's putting together this list of things to do. And if it's treated as a checklist or oh, I need to go implement XYZ without understanding why that needs to be done in the first place, what is the pain point? What is the customer-facing? How are they feeling as they're going through the product? Without that context and without that empathy, the solution is going to be...it might functionally work. But will it be a good user experience? Will it be a good customer experience? It's a little bit more shaky, I think.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. And in a fast-moving, fast-growing startup where everyone has a lot to do, if you're experiencing this kind of problem, it might manifest to you as stories get caught up at the beginning stages of when a developer is supposed to be working on them. And you find yourself having calls about what something is even supposed to be or supposed to do. And as the person who originated that ticket or originated that idea, you might have the feeling like, I can't believe we're having this conversation. Like, we don't have time to educate you about all the reasons why this is important and just please just do what we've said on the ticket. That is a natural reaction to that thing.
\n\nAnd so my advice would be if you're feeling that, if your team is feeling that or something similar, there's probably something small you can do. It might not even be having developers participate in discovery or interviews or anything. It might be as simple as just making sure that on the ticket you say why it's important. If your ticket is a checklist of things to change or do, making sure that the reason why is communicated there will go a long way to having the person pick up that ticket, get the context necessary to understand, and make good decisions as they work on it.
\n\nJOSH: Yeah, I remember the switch to the jobs to be done format. And I remember just being like, oh, [laughs] this makes a lot more sense because we can understand the context and the why. What is driving it? What is the problem there rather than what is the solution? And I think that shift in mindset does go a long way, like you said.
\n\nCHAD: I think one of the ideas behind a well-functioning team is we talk about this idea of collaboration which is you feel like you're doing your best work, that things are moving quickly, and you're enjoying the people you're working with, and you're building upon each other's ideas, and you're making things better as a team.
\n\nAnd I was recently talking to someone else, a candidate for VP of Engineering at one of our clients, and they were talking about flow, the idea of flow. And it wasn't a way that I had articulated it previously, but it's certainly another way of thinking about and a good way of thinking about it, especially when it comes to what is the role of a VP of engineering? Or what is the role of a CTO at a small company? Or what is the role of a development team or a product team in general? And one way to think about that is to work to maintain a flow state.
\n\nAnd when we think about the processes that we have in terms of retrospectives where every week we gather, and we identify things that could be better, and we come up with action items, a lot of the things that drive what could be better or what we want to try to do differently are all identifying the things that take us out of the flow state and trying to fix that problem so that items flow from beginning to end smoothly, that they go from concept to production smoothly as quickly as possible, and that individual people know where the next item to take is that it's ready so they're not blocked as they begin it. And they're able to get that to staging, and get a pull request out, and get that reviewed quickly, get it to staging, get that reviewed quickly, and then deploy it to production. And in theory, even do a continuous deployment so that that whole flow is automated as much as possible. So this idea of flow resonated with me. Has it resonated with you?
\n\nJOSH: Yeah, I agree. I remember seeing the comparisons people saying, okay, you're not actually looking for an engineer's passion necessarily. What you're looking for...and I come back to the hiring side of things because I'm doing that right now. But rather than looking to assess passion, it's assessing capacity and ability to get into a flow state more quickly. And obviously, so much of that is dependent on the team, and the communication style, the management style, and things like that.
\n\nBut flow is very much...I think once you get into that and you know how to get into that like you said, every waking moment is spent trying to optimize how do I get into this space? Because when you're in that space, when you're flowing, be it from an IC level or above, there's nothing quite like it. It's just this calm state of just everything feels like it's firing all the time perfectly, and it's good. And I think trying to make those spaces available for the rest of the team to get into that state and maintain that state makes a lot of sense.
\n\nI remember years and years and years ago, there was the focus on maker versus manager time. And we talk about anchoring manager time either at the start of the end day or around lunchtime or whatever is a logical time for a break. The idea is to maintain that flow state for as long as possible so that nothing else eats into that. Because you do an hour of writing software, and then you've got a 30-minute one-on-one with a teammate. And then you go, and you run for another hour, hour and a half, and then it's another half an hour meeting. It's like you're being sucked away. It is really hard to get into that zone and then stay there. So I think there's been a focus on it for a while. And I'm really glad that there's now a name and a thing that we can point to.
\n\nCHAD: I don't want to lead people astray about what Boost is. There's a big important part of Boost, which may not be immediately obvious to people, and that is design. I may have insinuated that design wasn't part of Boost before when we were talking about it, but it is. And it's designed on existing products and existing teams which is a different need than going from concept to launch of a new idea.
\n\nJOSH: So we had done some work with The New England Journal of Medicine. And their team, a very small team, internal team, had basically designed an application. And they ran into a number of accessibility and usability issues. They continued to hear feedback from a lot of folks saying, "This is not effective for what we're looking to do." And they'd engaged us in a couple of different times basically to rip apart and re-architect some of the application hierarchy and the usability side of things.
\n\nIt's been really interesting to see okay, well, within the design side of operating within existing products, it's often lended or leaned more towards doing some amount of a design audit and usability audit, talking to customers. And less around we're going to start from scratch and more what are some of these iterative improvements that we can make to make the product more accessible, easier to understand, easier to navigate, easier to use within what is, again, these very large platforms sometimes?
\n\nCHAD: I know one common request we get is we're thinking about implementing a design system or introducing a design system with the first version of the product. And we're having this growing pain around introducing new features. Is a design system the right thing to do there? That's a request we sometimes get.
\n\nJOSH: Yeah. And I think a lot of it at the end of the day, what we're looking to assess is what are the knowns? How much do we know about the application, about the interface? We talk about on the software development side of things avoiding premature abstraction, and I think the same thing is true about design systems. Like, if we're going through a product, maybe it's a wizard, and apart from forms, the pages are individualized, and there's not really any common patterns. It's like, okay, well, maybe now it doesn't make sense. But when you've got an application that spans hundreds of pages, there are going to be patterns across the different pages in terms of application hierarchy and componentization and things like that.
\n\nAnd the work that we're oftentimes brought in to do is let's assess what's there, figure out what are the common patterns here. And it's almost like refactoring and teasing things apart to where we get slight...it's a reduction in code use or rather an increase in code reuse because we're removing some of the idiosyncrasies that maybe were not teased apart into some component-based system. And that's fun work. [chuckles] It's really interesting.
\n\nYou get things like React when you're doing client-side rendering. And within the Rails side of things, there's a big push for the GitHub ViewComponent. RubyGem is another example. It's both ways to introduce these layers of abstraction that allow more of the engineering team to take on more of the application development, not because design isn't necessary, but they're then empowered to reuse these logical set of components. And so it amplifies the dev work, but it also amplifies the design work because the entire team is now leaning on that pre-baked work. It enables designers to shift focus and priorities to okay; what are new components? What are different ways to position this or present this information? And also, for our designers, it frees up their time to talk even more to customers, to people using the system.
\n\nCHAD: Well, I guess we'd be remiss if we didn't do a more blatant plug. You mentioned it earlier, but we do have an opening for Design Director on the Boost team.
\n\nJOSH: We do.
\n\nCHAD: So who would be a good fit for that role?
\n\nJOSH: That's a great question. I think a couple of the things that we're really focusing on for this role is someone who has done the work, so to speak, at an IC level for a lot of the work that we're doing right now with customers. And so we ask point-blank on the application sheet, have you worked in HTML and CSS? Have you facilitated design exercises like design sprints? Have you facilitated user interviews? Because so much of what we're seeing from a vision and a strategy perspective is we need to take and leverage these tools in the skill sets that our teams are looking to hone in on, and we want to take it a lot further. I think there's a big opportunity there.
\n\nSo I think it's less around years of experience. I wouldn't say you need to have 15 years of management experience or having been a director in order to apply for the role. But it's someone that can empathize with the team and has some opinions and some thoughts in terms of okay, what is design? What is not only visual design but product design accessibility? What does that look like in the next 5 to 10 years? Those are the people that I would love to see apply.
\n\nCHAD: If someone's interested, where's the best place for them to do that?
\n\nJOSH: thoughtbot.com/jobs. And the listing is there.
\n\nCHAD: So what's next for Boost, Josh? What do you have your sights set on as we wrap up 2021 and head into the next year?
\n\nJOSH: Oh boy. A lot of where the focus has been on this year is continuing to double down on Rails as the technology stack and get our feet wet, not that our feet aren't wet, [chuckles] continue to invest on the front end with React. I think for 2022, I think the big focus...we've run in the past some pretty successful custom trainings workshops for engineering teams. I think one that we had done earlier was late last year into early this year. We ran about 120 or so of their engineers through a custom RSpec course.
\n\nSo we worked with their engineering managers and some of their teams and got a sense of okay; given this codebase and given the skill sets of this 100-plus person engineering team, where should we focus? And we put together a two-day RSpec workshop. We administered over; I think, five or six weeks. We did it virtually. And the reception from that was incredible. They ended up bringing us back on. We're getting ready to start another round of consulting work where we're embedding alongside their teams. So I see that as a huge opportunity for Boost coming into next year.
\n\nAnd then I think one of the things that we've been pushing for is reducing some of the billing time from folks in leadership positions so that they're in a better position to support their designers and developers. And I'm really excited about the progress that we've made thus far. And I'm excited to continue carrying that into next year.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. Well, thanks for taking the time to talk to me.
\n\nJOSH: Thank you.
\n\nCHAD: Part of this new season, Season 11 of the podcast, for the next few episodes, I'm going to be talking to each of the managing directors at thoughtbot about their teams, about the different kinds of work we do on those teams, and the challenges, and what phases are clients in those different stages of the product lifecycle.
\n\nSo you can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode and all the other episodes at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel. Josh, if folks want to get in touch with you or follow along with you, what are the best places for them to do that?
\n\nJOSH: Definitely Twitter. My handle is @joshuaclayton, all one word.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. Thanks again. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
Special Guest: Joshua Clayton.
","summary":"Chad interviews Managing Director at thoughtbot, Joshua Clayton, about what a Managing Director at thoughtbot does, what makes Boost at thoughtbot different than other teams, and the belief in integrated teams of designers and developers company-wide.","date_published":"2021-10-28T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/f24b1c30-40fa-42ea-8b87-ef666406ed15.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":50644932,"duration_in_seconds":2397}]},{"id":"1e8fe895-4f85-4adb-8155-1528f72f2fb2","title":"398: Education 2.0 with Victoria Ransom of Prisma","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/398","content_text":"Chad interviews Co-Founder and CEO, Victoria Ranson of Prisma. Prisma is a stealth-mode education startup on a mission to reimagine the way children are educated. Their mission is to create a generation capable of solving the world's biggest problems by creating and running a comprehensive virtual learning program for kids in grades 4-8 that is very unlike any other traditional homeschooling program you've ever heard of.\n\n\nPrisma's Website\nFollow Prisma on Twitter or Facebook\nFollow Victoria on LinkedIn\nFollow Co-Founder, President, and Victoria's husband Alan Chuard on Twitter\nFor more info, email info@joinprisma.com\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Victoria Ransom, founder, and CEO of Prisma. Victoria, thanks for joining me on the show.\n\nVICTORIA: Hi, thanks for having me.\n\nCHAD: So, Victoria, before we jump into this great product that you have, why don't you tell people what Prisma really is.\n\nVICTORIA: Sure. Prisma is a very comprehensive educational program for kids who are learning from home or from anywhere in the world. It is not at all like traditional homeschooling because we provide kids with a very social experience. Kids are part of a cohort where they're meeting live with other kids every single day and collaborating with them on projects, and learning from each other, and discussing. And we provide coaches who are there every step of the way with the kids, providing them with rich feedback, helping to bring out the best in them, providing really engaging, live learning experiences.\n\nSo it’s not traditional homeschooling, although it has a lot of the really great benefits of that with the flexibility and the ability to learn from wherever you are. But we're equally not like typical online schooling, which I would say has tended to be more of an approach of taking traditional school and bringing it online. So there's still a concept of lectures, and grades, and textbooks. They may be electronic in nature, but they still resemble textbooks. \n\nThe Prisma curriculum is very different. It's rooted in learning through doing and project-based learning, and applying learning to the real world, and allowing kids a lot of choice. So they're ideally always learning through the lens of something that interests them and allowing them to go at their own pace. So a lot of the best practices from some of the most innovative bricks and mortar schools we're bringing to an online environment. And then, of course, we're very different from bricks and mortar schools because it is a virtual program where kids can learn from anywhere. \n\nSo we think it's a new approach to education that is really uniquely flexible, really prepares kids. We're very focused on preparing kids for the kind of world they're going to live in. The world is always changing rapidly. But I think this generation of kids is going to experience a future that's unlike anything we've ever seen in terms of the level of shift and change, AI being one of the reasons. \n\nIf you look at studies that look at the future of work, I think some studies we've read say 65% of today's elementary school kids will work in jobs that are yet to be invented. So, how do you prepare kids for that kind of future? And so, we're very focused on giving kids the holistic skills and the mindset that they will need to thrive in that kind of world. So yeah, that is Prisma in a very long nutshell.\n\nCHAD: [chuckles] Obviously, I think we'd be remiss if we didn't talk about the context of where we're in, which is kids just went through a year or more where a lot of kids were remote for school. And did Prisma exist before the pandemic? \n\nVICTORIA: It did in our minds very much so [chuckles] but not in reality. So Prisma arose out of our own personal needs. So my husband and I are the founders of Prisma. We've actually been entrepreneurs for most of our careers. After successfully selling a company to Google a few years ago, we said whatever we do next in our lives; we want it to be something that has the potential to have a large positive impact on society and on the world. And then struggled to figure out what that should look like because there are a lot of things that need solving in the world. \n\nBut we have three children, and as they approached school age, it really caused us to do a deep dive into how do we want to educate our kids? What do we think is the best approach to education? And from that, we started to formulate a vision by looking at all kinds of different schooling models, from homeschooling to micro-schooling to innovative bricks and mortar schooling. We developed a picture for how we wanted to educate our kids. But that really inspired us to create something that could be accessible to many more kids than just our own kids. \n\nAnd so we had a good 18 months to 2 years of researching, ideating, thinking about the pros and cons of a virtual model. And then along came COVID, and at that point, we said, you know what? There's never been a better time to test out an innovative new approach to schooling, especially one that was always going to be home-based from the get-go. And so let's start ideating and dreaming about this, and let's just put it into action see how it goes. So it was born during COVID, but the roots of Prisma very much predate COVID.\n\nCHAD: So, what was the actual timing there from when you decided to do something? When was that to you had the first students?\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that was a whirlwind. [laughs]\n\nCHAD: I can imagine. \n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. So really, it was late March, I think of 2020, when we said, \"We've just got to do this. The world is telling us to do this.\" To when we had our first kids in the door was early September. So between basically the beginning of April to the beginning of September, we incorporated, we refined our vision. The good news is we had a vision, and it was mapped out. We hired a curriculum team, hired coaches, created a website, found our first families, all of that. \n\nAnd we launched Prisma very clearly with the families saying, \"This is a pilot. We're trying something new here. Let's see how this goes.\" And we actually told the families, \"Look, we're going to definitely run this until the end of December, the end of the year. And if it's not going really, really well, then we will suggest you go and do something better.\" But it went great. It's not to say our model is perfect. And we believe very much in constant improvement and constant iteration. \n\nBut in terms of kids loving school at a time, the national narrative was that kids were hating school, and they were falling behind, and parents were finding distance learning a disaster; we had kids that were loving school more than they ever had. And we surveyed kids, and that's why we know that. Parents were extremely happy. Everything was pointing to the fact that we really had found something unique that was really working. And so it turned from a pilot into something that we're now putting all the building blocks in place to be able to scale more broadly.\n\nCHAD: School is a big thing, a big concept, and a very important one. Working so quickly in the midst of a pandemic, you know, launching any product is as much an art and finding what those first features need to be. How did you identify what that is and make sure you had something that was viable but that you could get done on time?\n\nVICTORIA: I think that came down to...because obviously, our product is our curriculum and our model. We have a software development team and a product development team. And they are building the tools that we'll need to run our model. But when we first launched, we were piecing together different tools that already existed. So the initial product really was the curriculum and our model of education and the tools that we pieced together to make it work. \n\nAnd I think the reason we were able to be successful is that we did a lot of groundwork in saying, what really matters? What is our perspective on what is the goal of this educational model? We got clear on that. What do we think are the values or approaches that really are critical to achieving that goal? And then using that as our Northstar. \n\nSo to be more concrete, we were really clear about two things in terms of why we were developing this model. One was we really wanted kids to love learning. We think they should love learning because learning is amazing, and it's exciting. And every kid is born with an innate desire to learn. And that if you want to bring the best out in kids, you want them to be excited about what they're learning. So kids loving learning was a very strong Northstar for us. And the second was what I already talked about before is developing an educational model that will really give kids the skills and mindsets they will need to really thrive in what is an exciting but uncertain future. And so that was the Northstar of why are we doing this. \n\nFrom that, we developed a clear perspective on okay; if we want kids to love learning, how do we do that? And so it was things like making sure that kids have choice so they can apply their learning to things that really excite them, making sure learning is applied to the real world, so kids are never saying, \"Why the heck do I need this?\" Making sure that learning is hands-on as possible because we think kids just get more out of it, and learn more, and enjoy it more if they can really be hands-on and project-based. Making sure...I won't go through them all, but we have our sort of core curriculum values, making sure learning is happening in a community-supportive community. \n\nAnd then the other thing we're really clear on is okay, what are these overarching skills or mindsets that we think are critical to succeeding in adulthood? And it was things like systems thinking and problem-solving, having a designer's mindset, which is this concept of being comfortable with iterating, and getting feedback, and putting yourself in someone else's shoes, being an excellent communicator and collaborator. Again, I won't go through them all. But we were just really clear. \n\nI think we had a really strong foundation of why do we exist and what is our approach here? And that enabled us to then be really clear about things like, okay, we're not going to throw the kitchen sink in terms of everything that kids need to learn, no. We're more focused on overarching skills than checking the box on 1,000 different science standards that kids might need to go through. \n\nSo yeah, as you said, I think whenever you launch a product or a company, being able to narrow down because you can't offer everything you want to offer, being able to narrow down to what really matters is important. And I feel like we did a pretty good job with that.\n\nCHAD: Awesome. What was the makeup of the initial team? You mentioned you and your husband. How did you split the responsibilities between you two, and then who else was involved?\n\nVICTORIA: So my husband and I have been co-founders of several companies. And it's worked really well because we have very different skill sets. My husband has much more of a product mind. He's much more detail-oriented. And he has a real eye for design and user experiences and also a creative marketing mind. So that gives you a sense of where he tends to focus. And I've tended to focus more on people management and operationalizing businesses, being more that external spokesperson. And so that's how we have split. He's doing more of the software development and product marketing and marketing side of Prisma. And I'm more involved in the day-to-day running of the program. \n\nOur first two very, very critical hires were curriculum developers, and Prisma would not be what it is today if we hadn't hired the two people that we hired. And they really balanced each other well because we hired Kristen, who had really deep experience in education. She had at a pretty young age founded her own charter school very successfully and just had such super deep experience in education, teaching, teaching teachers, training teachers, managing her own school.\n\nAnd then we had Emily, who came from a really non-traditional background. She'd actually come up through the theater world, had done a degree at Harvard School of Education. And they actually had some good experience with working with professors at Harvard in innovative ways to assess, also, computer science education. And she's got a very out-of-the-box way of thinking. And between the two of those, it was a really great combination for us to turn what was a vision of a curriculum that Alain and I had created into something actually concrete. \n\nAnd then the other critical hires were our first coaches. Again, we got super lucky in hiring just really fantastic coaches. And we've now realized hiring great coaches is a very fundamental part of what we do. And in fact, it will be one of our scaling challenges, I think. But again, we got really lucky with our coaches. And then, over time, we've hired operations people and product people. But I think that initial magic of the curriculum team and the coaching team was really important. We wouldn't be where we are today if we hadn't have hired those people, I think.\n\nCHAD: Did you bring on the two curriculum team members full-time right away?\n\nVICTORIA: We intended to, I think, when we were still incorporating the business. And all of this was happening in such a rush that I think we technically had to bring them on as contractors. But it was intended as a full-time role. Having said that, our hiring process asked them to sketch out in a fairly in-depth way or at least to sketch out in-depth pieces of what the ultimate Prisma curriculum would look like. So we did have a chance, I think, to test them out fairly well before we committed.\n\nCHAD: So did you take investment to start Prisma, or did you self-fund it?\n\nVICTORIA: We have self-funded. We're super lucky to be in the position to be able to do that, and we are continuing to self-fund. We had a ton of interest from venture capitalists; I think partly because we're somewhat proven entrepreneurs with other successes. And then also, because there was just suddenly a big spotlight on education and the belief that education might really shift. \n\nBut we have not taken funding because...it doesn't mean we won't ever. But we're very focused on being mission-first. And we're also very focused on growing carefully and thoughtfully. We think in the long run, we'll be far more successful if we really grow conservatively, at least initially, until we really feel like we've refined this and we know how to keep a really high level of quality and customer satisfaction while scaling. And I think our concern is that sometimes when you take outside capital that that capital might not be as patient. It might really push to grow faster than what we think might be the best approach. So thus far, we're just in the lucky position where we haven't had to take outside capital.\n\nCHAD: I assume that you're on a traditional school schedule based on what you said about starting in September.\n\nVICTORIA: We kind of are actually, which is funny because our initial vision for Prisma was to have it be year-round. And I think our families have been super open to so many innovative things. But the idea of having a summer break seems to be something that families don't want to give up on. \n\nCHAD: [laughs]\n\nVICTORIA: So I think our ultimate goal is that we'll be able to offer a summer program for those families that want to either go year-round or maybe they want to do the summer program and not do a winter program. And we do have kids already that are in the southern hemisphere, where that is desirable. But so far, we haven't tackled a summer program just because we're already tackling a lot. But we surveyed families, and they actually really wanted to mostly stick with the idea of having a summer, a more traditional summer break.\n\nCHAD: But does that mean that you can't add students outside of that cycle, so you really truly have cohorts? Or are you adding people along the way?\n\nVICTORIA: We're adding people along the way. We operate in five weeks cycles, actually. And each cycle has an overarching theme. And that's part of our goal of making things feel really-real world. And also, because kids have a lot of choice, we do want there to be some unifying factor to what they're doing. \n\nAnd so examples of themes that we've done are cities of the future, hidden histories, which looked at U.S. history but really from the perspective of lessons we can learn, inventor studio where kids learned all about design thinking through being real inventors. We have a super cool theme right now called uncharted territories, which has got some really strong STEM learning but through the lens of space exploration and deep-sea exploration. And kids are working on an interdisciplinary project during that time. We have live workshops that are aligned around the theme. \n\nAnd then they're also working on what we call missions. So math missions and writing missions, which again, are really honoring that idea of giving kids choice and allowing them to go at their own pace but just to make sure they're really getting the foundations they need in math and writing. But really, a kid could join at the beginning of any cycle.\n\nCHAD: Okay, that's great. Is that a happy accident of the model, or was it intentional in terms of from a product perspective making sure that you could continue to add people and weren't locked in to a small set of initial users?\n\nVICTORIA: No, that was intentional, although our original model that we launched with did not have five weeks cycles. It actually didn't have themes either. It was more trimester-based. We call them sessions, not trimesters. And so that was more of a model where we could have kids come in every trimester. And that's evolved to do these five-week cycles and themes. \n\nAnd from the feedback we got in that first trimester, we evolved the model. And so, I guess we've now evolved in a way we could have even more frequent intakes. But yeah, I think it was very...for us not coming from the education world, the idea that you could only bring customers on board once a year that felt very foreign. So we've always had the idea of let's make sure we can onboard kids throughout the year.\n\nCHAD: So what did the first families, I guess, the early adopters, what did they look like?\n\nVICTORIA: They were a real mix, so some long-time public school families and private school families, some long-time homeschool families. It was a real mix. I think it was a mix. Now, the Prisma families, I would say, are very much bought into precisely what our model and our vision is. But that first set of pilot families, I think some of them, if you ask them honestly, would say, \"School was a disaster because of COVID. We're willing to give anything a shot. We'll give this a shot.\" And I think what's been really surprising to some of those families is, wow, we actually really only thought we would do this for a year, and now we're continuing because it worked. \n\nBut it was a mix of families I'd say who had always really believed in a more alternative innovative approach to education but, for one reason or another, hadn't had the ability to test it perhaps because there were no schools like that in their neighborhood or because they just hadn't perhaps had the courage to try it out. So there was that set of families. There were families that had kids that would be probably said to be gifted and were just not being challenged in school and were a bit bored and not really living up to their potential that I think were attracted to give Prisma a shot. \n\nThere were homeschool families who really loved the idea of home-based learning but were looking for more community, a bit more support by having some structure and some coaches. And in some families where kids had not thrived in school because they had special learning needs. We even have kids at Prisma that have physical disabilities where physically showing up in school each day is really tough. And online learning just makes their life so much easier. So I guess the ultimate theme here is it was families for whom the more traditional bricks and mortar approach was maybe okay, but it wasn't wildly successful for their kids.\n\nCHAD: You focus on particular grade levels or age range, right?\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, four through eight right now, yeah.\n\nCHAD: And you said, \"Right now.\" [laughs] So why did you choose that age to focus on, and do you plan on expanding?\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, we do plan on expanding. I think the first expansion will be to go up into high school grades. The reason we focused on fourth through eighth was twofold. One was that we just think parents are more open to experimenting with a new model at the elementary-middle school level than they are at the high school level, so there was that. Just because once you get to high school, parents and kids alike start to get more anxious about things like college admissions and perhaps become more risk-averse. But the other really big reason came from all the conversations we had with teachers. I didn't mention that when we hired for our first coaching roles, we got 1,400 applicants applying. [chuckles] \n\nCHAD: Wow.\n\nVICTORIA: And so we narrowed it down. I did not talk to 1,400 people, but I talked to a lot of teachers. And actually, we first started those conversations saying we were going to focus on high school. And we shifted our thinking in part because so many of those teachers said that they felt like fourth, fifth, sixth grade is a real turning point for kids in terms of their enjoyment of school and their confidence in their own abilities and part of the reason for that, not the only reason, is that testing starts to ramp up at that stage in schooling. But we just really felt like if we could catch kids at that point, before they'd sort of lost their enjoyment for learning and before they had started to internalize ideas like I'm not good at school, or I'm not good at math, or whatever it may be, that we could have the greatest impact. \n\nThe other thing is there is quite an unlearning process that kids have to go through when they join Prisma because we give them a lot of autonomy, and independence, and ability to make choices and have control over their schedule. And we ask them to write self-reviews. And when it's time for a Parent Coach Learner Conference, the learner leads that conference. And the earlier you can get kids, I think the easier it is to get them to adapt to that approach than when you get them later in their schooling where it's been drummed into them that you paint within the lines. You do what you're told. You do this in order to get good grades. And so that was another piece that attracted us to that age range.\n\nCHAD: How old are your kids?\n\nVICTORIA: Good question. So they are seven, four, and two. So they're not quite old enough for Prisma yet, so we're doing our own version of Prisma right now until our oldest is old enough for Prisma. And the reason we didn't go below fourth grade, at least for now, is we do think there is a limit to how young you can go and be successful with a largely virtual model, and so that's why we haven't gone below fourth. And so, our seven-year-old is being homeschooled. But we've also put together a community of other homeschool kids that she learns with several times a week and gets that socialization piece, so that's the cohort piece that we offer through Prisma. But yeah, she's definitely...she's in training to be a Prisma kid.\n\nCHAD: How do you balance with both you and your husband working on Prisma, homeschooling a seven-year-old, the other kids? How are you balancing all of that?\n\nVICTORIA: And just parenthood in general because this is our first time starting a company while having kids.\n\nCHAD: Yes. \n\nVICTORIA: We had a pretty long gap in between our last company and this. So the honest answer is we have hired a teacher for the homeschooling piece, so that helps a lot. And she's super capable, and she's really the frontline person for managing the community that we've developed. So the harder piece is not that so much; it's managing parenthood with entrepreneurship. [chuckles] I would say it's a work in progress. And ask me some days, and I'll say, \"That's going great.\" And ask me other days, I would say, \"It's not going so great.\" \n\nWe are really, really lucky that we can hire good childcare, so that helps a lot. But even if you have great childcare, I want to be involved with my kids. I love my time with my kids. There's also just so many decisions and things you need to be involved in with kids that you truly don't want to and should not outsource, whether it's as simple as like on my to-do list right now, is that the two-year-old's birthday is coming up, and I'm not going to outsource buying birthday presents or organizing a party. So that's on my to-do list. \n\nSo I would say relative to when we had our previous company which was really successful, and stressful, and busy but that was the only thing we had to worry about. Trying to manage a company and kids it's a lot of context shifting. But for me, at least, I'm very, very rigid about my time. So I will organize my schedule so that I finish at least at the latest by 4:00 p.m. each day, and that is my time with the kids. And I'm with them until they're in bed, and then I'll jump back online. But there's almost nothing that will interfere with it. And that's just how I've prioritized, and it's just really important to me. So it's setting priorities, I guess.\n\nCHAD: Yeah, when we were setting up for the show, you said that you were in the office. So you separate home and work, and school places, I guess.\n\nVICTORIA: Kind of. The office is a little built-out area of our garage, [chuckles] so I walk from the front door three paces into the garage. But it is separated to the extent that the kids are not running in at any moment. They don't really come here. But it's really nice. And I think a lot of parents have discovered that during this whole COVID work from home experience and with kids home too, it's really nice. Because not every day, but some days I can go in and have lunch with the kids because they're all around. And some days, I can pop over to Elle's classroom and see what she's doing and be involved and do a bit of reading with her and that sort of thing. \n\nSo I personally really love the efficiency of working from home, wasting no time with commutes, and also just the ability to be really flexible with my time. Maybe I will take an hour out in the middle of the day to do something with the kids, and then I'll make it up later in the evening because that's fine. I don't have that much going on in the evening anyway once the kids are in bed. So I personally really like that flexibility.\n\nCHAD: So, turning our attention back to the product, you said that you got started piecing together existing tools on the tech side. And so, what were the first things that you started to replace in that stack? And when did you start hiring a tech team to do that?\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. So Alain, my husband, his background is product management. So we had product expertise already. We spun up a team of engineers, I think already by October or late October of 2020. So shortly after, we had officially begun the school year. And fortunately, these were engineers we'd worked with before in previous companies. \n\nAnd the first thing we started to tackle actually was the live learning experience, so basically a replacement for Zoom. And that was partly because we felt like there was nothing available that really designed a live learning experience through the eyes of fourth through eighth graders, through that sort of demographic. And also, because the other product needs that we have that we're now tackling is everything we need to just manage the whole curriculum like a learning management system. \n\nBut our whole model was still too much in flux for us to want to focus on that right away. We needed some clarity about what the model would look like. Whereas the idea that we would always have a live learning component where kids would be online, there'd be a coach, but it would be very collaborative and interactive was very clear. We knew that wouldn't shift, and so that was the first piece we tackled. \n\nAnd we've really tried to tackle a few different areas there. One is to make coaches really efficient so that they're not trying to focus on creating this really engaging learning experience while also having 15 different tabs open and trying to play this YouTube video. So we've basically created what we call Prisma LIVE, where our curriculum team can create these semi-scripted because we certainly let coaches deviate, of course, but experiences with chapters. \n\nAnd there's a lot of shifting of the way the room looks, and the way the kids are organized, and the visuals. Because a lot of the research we looked at is that fatigue, Zoom fatigue, actually comes from staring for a long time at the same scene of this person you're talking to or these people you're talking to. So to make it visually stimulating and appealing for kids and seamless for coaches so they don't need to worry about managing all these different aspects of the workshop. They're just clicking through and focusing on making sure kids are participating.\n\nAnd participation was another thing we really focused on. We do a lot of breakout rooms because we want kids to be collaborating in small groups. So we wanted coaches to be able to instead of having to jump into breakout rooms and interrupt the flow and not know who needs help, the ability for them to stay in the main room and be able to listen in and get an oversight for how things are going in the various breakout rooms and jump into those rooms where it's clear that they're needed perhaps because there's not much going on in there. There's not much discussion, or maybe there's a lot of very animated discussion. So that was an area we focused on and then just making it more kid-friendly and more fun. \n\nAnd every cycle at Prisma ends with Expo Day, where kids present the project they've been working on to the whole Prisma community, parents, and grandparents. And one of the real downsides of virtual in that experience is that these kids are presenting these amazing things, but there's limited ability for people to express how amazing they think it is. And so just visual ways of people being able to express their emotions and their reactions during live workshops is another thing. We've focused on fun avatars that would appeal to kids and that sort of thing. So that has been our first focus.\n\nNow we're heads down on the learning management piece. Like, what are the building blocks we need to put in place in order to be able to keep the customer experience really high whilst making our coaches more and more effective and more and more scalable? \nCHAD: So as you got started or when you were thinking about getting started, what were you most afraid of?\n\nVICTORIA: Well, aside from the fact that we're trying to pull this off really quickly and being afraid that this would be a complete failure, aside from that, honestly --\n\nCHAD: Just that small thing. [chuckles]\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. I think the thing that we were most nervous about, and I think it's the thing we probably get the biggest question about, and yet it has proven to be the thing we really didn't need to worry about, is socialization. And to what extent can kids build friendships virtually? To what extent can they build community virtually? To what extent can they meaningfully collaborate and learn together virtually? And I think we went in hoping that all of that was fully achievable but not being quite sure about it. \n\nAnd honestly, the signs were so quick that that wasn't going to be an issue for us. Already in orientation...we organized this really fun orientation mostly oriented around making sure kids were excited and got to know each other. And so quickly, we started hearing from parents, like, \"Oh, my kid can't stop talking about Prisma. They're jumping out of bed every morning. They've never done that before. They've never jumped out of bed to go to school. And my kid has already made their first friend.\" \n\nAnd what I think we've discovered is absolutely kids can make friends virtually, and probably kids would have never questioned that actually. That probably felt natural to them. I think it's maybe adults that might question that. Now, does that mean that kids shouldn't have in-person friends? Of course, they should. And we would strongly encourage Prisma families to make sure their kids are enrolled in extracurriculars in their community and that sort of thing. We've surveyed the kids. Every single Prisma learner has said that they've made strong friendships at Prisma. For some of them, it's many friendships. For some of them, it's a smaller number of friendships. \n\nAnd the other thing that's just going really well, I think, better than in-person school or bricks and mortar school is the community we've created. It's a really, really supportive community of kids. There hasn't been this sorting that I think happens in schools, particularly at the middle school and high school level of like, you're part of that clique, and you're part of that clique. And we're a little cooler than you are. Maybe just the nature of virtual makes it harder to sort kids like that. And there's not the natural time of in the cafeteria where you have to decide where you're going to sit and that kind of awkwardness. \n\nPlus, we did a lot of legwork upfront of working with the kids to say: What kind of community do we want to build here? What are the values of our cohort? What are the expectations of our cohort? And I think that really helped to create a community that's just really kind and supportive, pretty uniquely kind and supportive, I think.\n\nCHAD: Cool. That's great. And now that you're up and running and continuing to grow, looking ahead, what are you most worried about now as your next challenge?\n\nVICTORIA: I think the biggest, hardest thing for us to figure out is how to keep the level of quality, great results. I haven't even mentioned it yet, but we are making sure that kids are progressing both academically in terms of these holistic skills. And on the academic front, we've seen really amazing growth. So the kids did a nationally recognized assessment at the end of last year and at the beginning when they joined. And they grew in math at 153% of expected growth and 174% of expected growth in reading. \n\nSo we've set a really high bar for ourselves. Kids are loving Prisma; 100% of kids said they're happier at Prisma than at their previous school. We have a really great Net Promoter Score, which means parents are really willing to recommend Prisma. We're seeing great growth in the kids. So how do we keep that super high bar whilst opening Prisma up to more and more and more kids? Because part of the attraction for us to offer a virtual model was the desire to be able to reach large numbers of kids if we came up with a model that really worked. \n\nAnd I think through all of our research, one of the things we noticed is there are amazingly innovative schools out there. There are a lot of really innovative brick-and-mortar schools, actually, but they really haven't scaled. They tend to be...a few have scaled a bit, but they're still very limited in the number of kids that they can reach. And part of our thesis was that if you could do this online, just online is inherently more scalable. You're not dealing with buildings and everything that goes along with that. \n\nBut nevertheless, we still are a model where coaches are really important. So our ability to continue to find, train, and develop coaches that are really awesome I think will be a challenge, something we're going to have to get really, really good at. And then just making sure that we can strike the right balance because we also want to be a model that's as affordable as possible and that requires us to make sure that our costs are reasonable. So striking that balance and trying to use technology to be as efficient as possible, I think that is the next set of challenges that we need to deal with.\n\nCHAD: Are you comfortable sharing how many students you have now?\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I'm comfortable with that because the number we have was very much set by our own desire to grow carefully. So we have almost 90 kids. And we have a very long waitlist, basically.\n\nCHAD: Well, that's bigger than my high school graduating class. [laughs]\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, there you go. [laughs] It's funny because people react differently to that. Some people are like, \"Wow, that's pretty big.\" It's not nearly as big as we intend to get. But we decided to cap. We wanted to be disciplined. We had way more demand than that. But further to what I said of quality first and delighting customers first, we said, \"No, we'll cut it off at that point.\" And families have gone on to a waitlist, which is growing by the day. And then we'll be able to let more families in throughout the year. \n\nWe're small, but we're a lot bigger than we were in our first pilot year. And I think what's been really exciting is we're still somewhat early into the school year. But that level of delight, and excitement, and families just writing to us and saying, \"I've never seen my kids so excited.\" And that's happening again. So it's really exciting to see that we're getting that again even though we have actually grown quite a bit relative to where we were.\n\nCHAD: Well, congratulations on everything that you've achieved so far and in tackling these upcoming challenges. \n\nVICTORIA: Thank you. \n\nCHAD: If people want to find out more about Prisma and join or if they're interested in becoming a great coach, where can they do that?\n\nVICTORIA: So the best place to go is our website which is joinprisma.com, so not prisma.com, joinprisma.com. We have a super detailed website, which I think is really informative. So that's a great place to start. You can also sign up for an info session there if you want to talk to someone live about Prisma. And then yes, we have job postings on there as well. And we're always super excited to hear from talented candidates. So that's the best place to go.\n\nCHAD: And if people want to follow along with you personally or get in touch, where are the best places for them to do that?\n\nVICTORIA: So we do have Prisma social media accounts, so Twitter is @joinprisma. And I'm not the most active person on social media. My husband is much more active, so they may want to follow him. He's Alain Chuard. I presume his Twitter handle is @AlainChuard, C-H-U-A-R-D. [laughs] And you can reach me if you email info@joinprisma.com, but you address it to Victoria. It will reach me, and I will reply.\n\nCHAD: Awesome. And people can find all these links and everything in the show notes, which are at giantrobots.fm. You can also subscribe to the show there as well. And if you have questions or comments for us, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Everybody, thanks for listening and see you next time. Thanks, Victoria.\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you. Thanks so much.\n\nAnnouncer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.Special Guest: Victoria Ransom.","content_html":"Chad interviews Co-Founder and CEO, Victoria Ranson of Prisma. Prisma is a stealth-mode education startup on a mission to reimagine the way children are educated. Their mission is to create a generation capable of solving the world's biggest problems by creating and running a comprehensive virtual learning program for kids in grades 4-8 that is very unlike any other traditional homeschooling program you've ever heard of.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Victoria Ransom, founder, and CEO of Prisma. Victoria, thanks for joining me on the show.
\n\nVICTORIA: Hi, thanks for having me.
\n\nCHAD: So, Victoria, before we jump into this great product that you have, why don't you tell people what Prisma really is.
\n\nVICTORIA: Sure. Prisma is a very comprehensive educational program for kids who are learning from home or from anywhere in the world. It is not at all like traditional homeschooling because we provide kids with a very social experience. Kids are part of a cohort where they're meeting live with other kids every single day and collaborating with them on projects, and learning from each other, and discussing. And we provide coaches who are there every step of the way with the kids, providing them with rich feedback, helping to bring out the best in them, providing really engaging, live learning experiences.
\n\nSo it’s not traditional homeschooling, although it has a lot of the really great benefits of that with the flexibility and the ability to learn from wherever you are. But we're equally not like typical online schooling, which I would say has tended to be more of an approach of taking traditional school and bringing it online. So there's still a concept of lectures, and grades, and textbooks. They may be electronic in nature, but they still resemble textbooks.
\n\nThe Prisma curriculum is very different. It's rooted in learning through doing and project-based learning, and applying learning to the real world, and allowing kids a lot of choice. So they're ideally always learning through the lens of something that interests them and allowing them to go at their own pace. So a lot of the best practices from some of the most innovative bricks and mortar schools we're bringing to an online environment. And then, of course, we're very different from bricks and mortar schools because it is a virtual program where kids can learn from anywhere.
\n\nSo we think it's a new approach to education that is really uniquely flexible, really prepares kids. We're very focused on preparing kids for the kind of world they're going to live in. The world is always changing rapidly. But I think this generation of kids is going to experience a future that's unlike anything we've ever seen in terms of the level of shift and change, AI being one of the reasons.
\n\nIf you look at studies that look at the future of work, I think some studies we've read say 65% of today's elementary school kids will work in jobs that are yet to be invented. So, how do you prepare kids for that kind of future? And so, we're very focused on giving kids the holistic skills and the mindset that they will need to thrive in that kind of world. So yeah, that is Prisma in a very long nutshell.
\n\nCHAD: [chuckles] Obviously, I think we'd be remiss if we didn't talk about the context of where we're in, which is kids just went through a year or more where a lot of kids were remote for school. And did Prisma exist before the pandemic?
\n\nVICTORIA: It did in our minds very much so [chuckles] but not in reality. So Prisma arose out of our own personal needs. So my husband and I are the founders of Prisma. We've actually been entrepreneurs for most of our careers. After successfully selling a company to Google a few years ago, we said whatever we do next in our lives; we want it to be something that has the potential to have a large positive impact on society and on the world. And then struggled to figure out what that should look like because there are a lot of things that need solving in the world.
\n\nBut we have three children, and as they approached school age, it really caused us to do a deep dive into how do we want to educate our kids? What do we think is the best approach to education? And from that, we started to formulate a vision by looking at all kinds of different schooling models, from homeschooling to micro-schooling to innovative bricks and mortar schooling. We developed a picture for how we wanted to educate our kids. But that really inspired us to create something that could be accessible to many more kids than just our own kids.
\n\nAnd so we had a good 18 months to 2 years of researching, ideating, thinking about the pros and cons of a virtual model. And then along came COVID, and at that point, we said, you know what? There's never been a better time to test out an innovative new approach to schooling, especially one that was always going to be home-based from the get-go. And so let's start ideating and dreaming about this, and let's just put it into action see how it goes. So it was born during COVID, but the roots of Prisma very much predate COVID.
\n\nCHAD: So, what was the actual timing there from when you decided to do something? When was that to you had the first students?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, that was a whirlwind. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: I can imagine.
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. So really, it was late March, I think of 2020, when we said, "We've just got to do this. The world is telling us to do this." To when we had our first kids in the door was early September. So between basically the beginning of April to the beginning of September, we incorporated, we refined our vision. The good news is we had a vision, and it was mapped out. We hired a curriculum team, hired coaches, created a website, found our first families, all of that.
\n\nAnd we launched Prisma very clearly with the families saying, "This is a pilot. We're trying something new here. Let's see how this goes." And we actually told the families, "Look, we're going to definitely run this until the end of December, the end of the year. And if it's not going really, really well, then we will suggest you go and do something better." But it went great. It's not to say our model is perfect. And we believe very much in constant improvement and constant iteration.
\n\nBut in terms of kids loving school at a time, the national narrative was that kids were hating school, and they were falling behind, and parents were finding distance learning a disaster; we had kids that were loving school more than they ever had. And we surveyed kids, and that's why we know that. Parents were extremely happy. Everything was pointing to the fact that we really had found something unique that was really working. And so it turned from a pilot into something that we're now putting all the building blocks in place to be able to scale more broadly.
\n\nCHAD: School is a big thing, a big concept, and a very important one. Working so quickly in the midst of a pandemic, you know, launching any product is as much an art and finding what those first features need to be. How did you identify what that is and make sure you had something that was viable but that you could get done on time?
\n\nVICTORIA: I think that came down to...because obviously, our product is our curriculum and our model. We have a software development team and a product development team. And they are building the tools that we'll need to run our model. But when we first launched, we were piecing together different tools that already existed. So the initial product really was the curriculum and our model of education and the tools that we pieced together to make it work.
\n\nAnd I think the reason we were able to be successful is that we did a lot of groundwork in saying, what really matters? What is our perspective on what is the goal of this educational model? We got clear on that. What do we think are the values or approaches that really are critical to achieving that goal? And then using that as our Northstar.
\n\nSo to be more concrete, we were really clear about two things in terms of why we were developing this model. One was we really wanted kids to love learning. We think they should love learning because learning is amazing, and it's exciting. And every kid is born with an innate desire to learn. And that if you want to bring the best out in kids, you want them to be excited about what they're learning. So kids loving learning was a very strong Northstar for us. And the second was what I already talked about before is developing an educational model that will really give kids the skills and mindsets they will need to really thrive in what is an exciting but uncertain future. And so that was the Northstar of why are we doing this.
\n\nFrom that, we developed a clear perspective on okay; if we want kids to love learning, how do we do that? And so it was things like making sure that kids have choice so they can apply their learning to things that really excite them, making sure learning is applied to the real world, so kids are never saying, "Why the heck do I need this?" Making sure that learning is hands-on as possible because we think kids just get more out of it, and learn more, and enjoy it more if they can really be hands-on and project-based. Making sure...I won't go through them all, but we have our sort of core curriculum values, making sure learning is happening in a community-supportive community.
\n\nAnd then the other thing we're really clear on is okay, what are these overarching skills or mindsets that we think are critical to succeeding in adulthood? And it was things like systems thinking and problem-solving, having a designer's mindset, which is this concept of being comfortable with iterating, and getting feedback, and putting yourself in someone else's shoes, being an excellent communicator and collaborator. Again, I won't go through them all. But we were just really clear.
\n\nI think we had a really strong foundation of why do we exist and what is our approach here? And that enabled us to then be really clear about things like, okay, we're not going to throw the kitchen sink in terms of everything that kids need to learn, no. We're more focused on overarching skills than checking the box on 1,000 different science standards that kids might need to go through.
\n\nSo yeah, as you said, I think whenever you launch a product or a company, being able to narrow down because you can't offer everything you want to offer, being able to narrow down to what really matters is important. And I feel like we did a pretty good job with that.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. What was the makeup of the initial team? You mentioned you and your husband. How did you split the responsibilities between you two, and then who else was involved?
\n\nVICTORIA: So my husband and I have been co-founders of several companies. And it's worked really well because we have very different skill sets. My husband has much more of a product mind. He's much more detail-oriented. And he has a real eye for design and user experiences and also a creative marketing mind. So that gives you a sense of where he tends to focus. And I've tended to focus more on people management and operationalizing businesses, being more that external spokesperson. And so that's how we have split. He's doing more of the software development and product marketing and marketing side of Prisma. And I'm more involved in the day-to-day running of the program.
\n\nOur first two very, very critical hires were curriculum developers, and Prisma would not be what it is today if we hadn't hired the two people that we hired. And they really balanced each other well because we hired Kristen, who had really deep experience in education. She had at a pretty young age founded her own charter school very successfully and just had such super deep experience in education, teaching, teaching teachers, training teachers, managing her own school.
\n\nAnd then we had Emily, who came from a really non-traditional background. She'd actually come up through the theater world, had done a degree at Harvard School of Education. And they actually had some good experience with working with professors at Harvard in innovative ways to assess, also, computer science education. And she's got a very out-of-the-box way of thinking. And between the two of those, it was a really great combination for us to turn what was a vision of a curriculum that Alain and I had created into something actually concrete.
\n\nAnd then the other critical hires were our first coaches. Again, we got super lucky in hiring just really fantastic coaches. And we've now realized hiring great coaches is a very fundamental part of what we do. And in fact, it will be one of our scaling challenges, I think. But again, we got really lucky with our coaches. And then, over time, we've hired operations people and product people. But I think that initial magic of the curriculum team and the coaching team was really important. We wouldn't be where we are today if we hadn't have hired those people, I think.
\n\nCHAD: Did you bring on the two curriculum team members full-time right away?
\n\nVICTORIA: We intended to, I think, when we were still incorporating the business. And all of this was happening in such a rush that I think we technically had to bring them on as contractors. But it was intended as a full-time role. Having said that, our hiring process asked them to sketch out in a fairly in-depth way or at least to sketch out in-depth pieces of what the ultimate Prisma curriculum would look like. So we did have a chance, I think, to test them out fairly well before we committed.
\n\nCHAD: So did you take investment to start Prisma, or did you self-fund it?
\n\nVICTORIA: We have self-funded. We're super lucky to be in the position to be able to do that, and we are continuing to self-fund. We had a ton of interest from venture capitalists; I think partly because we're somewhat proven entrepreneurs with other successes. And then also, because there was just suddenly a big spotlight on education and the belief that education might really shift.
\n\nBut we have not taken funding because...it doesn't mean we won't ever. But we're very focused on being mission-first. And we're also very focused on growing carefully and thoughtfully. We think in the long run, we'll be far more successful if we really grow conservatively, at least initially, until we really feel like we've refined this and we know how to keep a really high level of quality and customer satisfaction while scaling. And I think our concern is that sometimes when you take outside capital that that capital might not be as patient. It might really push to grow faster than what we think might be the best approach. So thus far, we're just in the lucky position where we haven't had to take outside capital.
\n\nCHAD: I assume that you're on a traditional school schedule based on what you said about starting in September.
\n\nVICTORIA: We kind of are actually, which is funny because our initial vision for Prisma was to have it be year-round. And I think our families have been super open to so many innovative things. But the idea of having a summer break seems to be something that families don't want to give up on.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: So I think our ultimate goal is that we'll be able to offer a summer program for those families that want to either go year-round or maybe they want to do the summer program and not do a winter program. And we do have kids already that are in the southern hemisphere, where that is desirable. But so far, we haven't tackled a summer program just because we're already tackling a lot. But we surveyed families, and they actually really wanted to mostly stick with the idea of having a summer, a more traditional summer break.
\n\nCHAD: But does that mean that you can't add students outside of that cycle, so you really truly have cohorts? Or are you adding people along the way?
\n\nVICTORIA: We're adding people along the way. We operate in five weeks cycles, actually. And each cycle has an overarching theme. And that's part of our goal of making things feel really-real world. And also, because kids have a lot of choice, we do want there to be some unifying factor to what they're doing.
\n\nAnd so examples of themes that we've done are cities of the future, hidden histories, which looked at U.S. history but really from the perspective of lessons we can learn, inventor studio where kids learned all about design thinking through being real inventors. We have a super cool theme right now called uncharted territories, which has got some really strong STEM learning but through the lens of space exploration and deep-sea exploration. And kids are working on an interdisciplinary project during that time. We have live workshops that are aligned around the theme.
\n\nAnd then they're also working on what we call missions. So math missions and writing missions, which again, are really honoring that idea of giving kids choice and allowing them to go at their own pace but just to make sure they're really getting the foundations they need in math and writing. But really, a kid could join at the beginning of any cycle.
\n\nCHAD: Okay, that's great. Is that a happy accident of the model, or was it intentional in terms of from a product perspective making sure that you could continue to add people and weren't locked in to a small set of initial users?
\n\nVICTORIA: No, that was intentional, although our original model that we launched with did not have five weeks cycles. It actually didn't have themes either. It was more trimester-based. We call them sessions, not trimesters. And so that was more of a model where we could have kids come in every trimester. And that's evolved to do these five-week cycles and themes.
\n\nAnd from the feedback we got in that first trimester, we evolved the model. And so, I guess we've now evolved in a way we could have even more frequent intakes. But yeah, I think it was very...for us not coming from the education world, the idea that you could only bring customers on board once a year that felt very foreign. So we've always had the idea of let's make sure we can onboard kids throughout the year.
\n\nCHAD: So what did the first families, I guess, the early adopters, what did they look like?
\n\nVICTORIA: They were a real mix, so some long-time public school families and private school families, some long-time homeschool families. It was a real mix. I think it was a mix. Now, the Prisma families, I would say, are very much bought into precisely what our model and our vision is. But that first set of pilot families, I think some of them, if you ask them honestly, would say, "School was a disaster because of COVID. We're willing to give anything a shot. We'll give this a shot." And I think what's been really surprising to some of those families is, wow, we actually really only thought we would do this for a year, and now we're continuing because it worked.
\n\nBut it was a mix of families I'd say who had always really believed in a more alternative innovative approach to education but, for one reason or another, hadn't had the ability to test it perhaps because there were no schools like that in their neighborhood or because they just hadn't perhaps had the courage to try it out. So there was that set of families. There were families that had kids that would be probably said to be gifted and were just not being challenged in school and were a bit bored and not really living up to their potential that I think were attracted to give Prisma a shot.
\n\nThere were homeschool families who really loved the idea of home-based learning but were looking for more community, a bit more support by having some structure and some coaches. And in some families where kids had not thrived in school because they had special learning needs. We even have kids at Prisma that have physical disabilities where physically showing up in school each day is really tough. And online learning just makes their life so much easier. So I guess the ultimate theme here is it was families for whom the more traditional bricks and mortar approach was maybe okay, but it wasn't wildly successful for their kids.
\n\nCHAD: You focus on particular grade levels or age range, right?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, four through eight right now, yeah.
\n\nCHAD: And you said, "Right now." [laughs] So why did you choose that age to focus on, and do you plan on expanding?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yes, we do plan on expanding. I think the first expansion will be to go up into high school grades. The reason we focused on fourth through eighth was twofold. One was that we just think parents are more open to experimenting with a new model at the elementary-middle school level than they are at the high school level, so there was that. Just because once you get to high school, parents and kids alike start to get more anxious about things like college admissions and perhaps become more risk-averse. But the other really big reason came from all the conversations we had with teachers. I didn't mention that when we hired for our first coaching roles, we got 1,400 applicants applying. [chuckles]
\n\nCHAD: Wow.
\n\nVICTORIA: And so we narrowed it down. I did not talk to 1,400 people, but I talked to a lot of teachers. And actually, we first started those conversations saying we were going to focus on high school. And we shifted our thinking in part because so many of those teachers said that they felt like fourth, fifth, sixth grade is a real turning point for kids in terms of their enjoyment of school and their confidence in their own abilities and part of the reason for that, not the only reason, is that testing starts to ramp up at that stage in schooling. But we just really felt like if we could catch kids at that point, before they'd sort of lost their enjoyment for learning and before they had started to internalize ideas like I'm not good at school, or I'm not good at math, or whatever it may be, that we could have the greatest impact.
\n\nThe other thing is there is quite an unlearning process that kids have to go through when they join Prisma because we give them a lot of autonomy, and independence, and ability to make choices and have control over their schedule. And we ask them to write self-reviews. And when it's time for a Parent Coach Learner Conference, the learner leads that conference. And the earlier you can get kids, I think the easier it is to get them to adapt to that approach than when you get them later in their schooling where it's been drummed into them that you paint within the lines. You do what you're told. You do this in order to get good grades. And so that was another piece that attracted us to that age range.
\n\nCHAD: How old are your kids?
\n\nVICTORIA: Good question. So they are seven, four, and two. So they're not quite old enough for Prisma yet, so we're doing our own version of Prisma right now until our oldest is old enough for Prisma. And the reason we didn't go below fourth grade, at least for now, is we do think there is a limit to how young you can go and be successful with a largely virtual model, and so that's why we haven't gone below fourth. And so, our seven-year-old is being homeschooled. But we've also put together a community of other homeschool kids that she learns with several times a week and gets that socialization piece, so that's the cohort piece that we offer through Prisma. But yeah, she's definitely...she's in training to be a Prisma kid.
\n\nCHAD: How do you balance with both you and your husband working on Prisma, homeschooling a seven-year-old, the other kids? How are you balancing all of that?
\n\nVICTORIA: And just parenthood in general because this is our first time starting a company while having kids.
\n\nCHAD: Yes.
\n\nVICTORIA: We had a pretty long gap in between our last company and this. So the honest answer is we have hired a teacher for the homeschooling piece, so that helps a lot. And she's super capable, and she's really the frontline person for managing the community that we've developed. So the harder piece is not that so much; it's managing parenthood with entrepreneurship. [chuckles] I would say it's a work in progress. And ask me some days, and I'll say, "That's going great." And ask me other days, I would say, "It's not going so great."
\n\nWe are really, really lucky that we can hire good childcare, so that helps a lot. But even if you have great childcare, I want to be involved with my kids. I love my time with my kids. There's also just so many decisions and things you need to be involved in with kids that you truly don't want to and should not outsource, whether it's as simple as like on my to-do list right now, is that the two-year-old's birthday is coming up, and I'm not going to outsource buying birthday presents or organizing a party. So that's on my to-do list.
\n\nSo I would say relative to when we had our previous company which was really successful, and stressful, and busy but that was the only thing we had to worry about. Trying to manage a company and kids it's a lot of context shifting. But for me, at least, I'm very, very rigid about my time. So I will organize my schedule so that I finish at least at the latest by 4:00 p.m. each day, and that is my time with the kids. And I'm with them until they're in bed, and then I'll jump back online. But there's almost nothing that will interfere with it. And that's just how I've prioritized, and it's just really important to me. So it's setting priorities, I guess.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, when we were setting up for the show, you said that you were in the office. So you separate home and work, and school places, I guess.
\n\nVICTORIA: Kind of. The office is a little built-out area of our garage, [chuckles] so I walk from the front door three paces into the garage. But it is separated to the extent that the kids are not running in at any moment. They don't really come here. But it's really nice. And I think a lot of parents have discovered that during this whole COVID work from home experience and with kids home too, it's really nice. Because not every day, but some days I can go in and have lunch with the kids because they're all around. And some days, I can pop over to Elle's classroom and see what she's doing and be involved and do a bit of reading with her and that sort of thing.
\n\nSo I personally really love the efficiency of working from home, wasting no time with commutes, and also just the ability to be really flexible with my time. Maybe I will take an hour out in the middle of the day to do something with the kids, and then I'll make it up later in the evening because that's fine. I don't have that much going on in the evening anyway once the kids are in bed. So I personally really like that flexibility.
\n\nCHAD: So, turning our attention back to the product, you said that you got started piecing together existing tools on the tech side. And so, what were the first things that you started to replace in that stack? And when did you start hiring a tech team to do that?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. So Alain, my husband, his background is product management. So we had product expertise already. We spun up a team of engineers, I think already by October or late October of 2020. So shortly after, we had officially begun the school year. And fortunately, these were engineers we'd worked with before in previous companies.
\n\nAnd the first thing we started to tackle actually was the live learning experience, so basically a replacement for Zoom. And that was partly because we felt like there was nothing available that really designed a live learning experience through the eyes of fourth through eighth graders, through that sort of demographic. And also, because the other product needs that we have that we're now tackling is everything we need to just manage the whole curriculum like a learning management system.
\n\nBut our whole model was still too much in flux for us to want to focus on that right away. We needed some clarity about what the model would look like. Whereas the idea that we would always have a live learning component where kids would be online, there'd be a coach, but it would be very collaborative and interactive was very clear. We knew that wouldn't shift, and so that was the first piece we tackled.
\n\nAnd we've really tried to tackle a few different areas there. One is to make coaches really efficient so that they're not trying to focus on creating this really engaging learning experience while also having 15 different tabs open and trying to play this YouTube video. So we've basically created what we call Prisma LIVE, where our curriculum team can create these semi-scripted because we certainly let coaches deviate, of course, but experiences with chapters.
\n\nAnd there's a lot of shifting of the way the room looks, and the way the kids are organized, and the visuals. Because a lot of the research we looked at is that fatigue, Zoom fatigue, actually comes from staring for a long time at the same scene of this person you're talking to or these people you're talking to. So to make it visually stimulating and appealing for kids and seamless for coaches so they don't need to worry about managing all these different aspects of the workshop. They're just clicking through and focusing on making sure kids are participating.
\n\nAnd participation was another thing we really focused on. We do a lot of breakout rooms because we want kids to be collaborating in small groups. So we wanted coaches to be able to instead of having to jump into breakout rooms and interrupt the flow and not know who needs help, the ability for them to stay in the main room and be able to listen in and get an oversight for how things are going in the various breakout rooms and jump into those rooms where it's clear that they're needed perhaps because there's not much going on in there. There's not much discussion, or maybe there's a lot of very animated discussion. So that was an area we focused on and then just making it more kid-friendly and more fun.
\n\nAnd every cycle at Prisma ends with Expo Day, where kids present the project they've been working on to the whole Prisma community, parents, and grandparents. And one of the real downsides of virtual in that experience is that these kids are presenting these amazing things, but there's limited ability for people to express how amazing they think it is. And so just visual ways of people being able to express their emotions and their reactions during live workshops is another thing. We've focused on fun avatars that would appeal to kids and that sort of thing. So that has been our first focus.
\n\nNow we're heads down on the learning management piece. Like, what are the building blocks we need to put in place in order to be able to keep the customer experience really high whilst making our coaches more and more effective and more and more scalable?
\nCHAD: So as you got started or when you were thinking about getting started, what were you most afraid of?
VICTORIA: Well, aside from the fact that we're trying to pull this off really quickly and being afraid that this would be a complete failure, aside from that, honestly --
\n\nCHAD: Just that small thing. [chuckles]
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah. I think the thing that we were most nervous about, and I think it's the thing we probably get the biggest question about, and yet it has proven to be the thing we really didn't need to worry about, is socialization. And to what extent can kids build friendships virtually? To what extent can they build community virtually? To what extent can they meaningfully collaborate and learn together virtually? And I think we went in hoping that all of that was fully achievable but not being quite sure about it.
\n\nAnd honestly, the signs were so quick that that wasn't going to be an issue for us. Already in orientation...we organized this really fun orientation mostly oriented around making sure kids were excited and got to know each other. And so quickly, we started hearing from parents, like, "Oh, my kid can't stop talking about Prisma. They're jumping out of bed every morning. They've never done that before. They've never jumped out of bed to go to school. And my kid has already made their first friend."
\n\nAnd what I think we've discovered is absolutely kids can make friends virtually, and probably kids would have never questioned that actually. That probably felt natural to them. I think it's maybe adults that might question that. Now, does that mean that kids shouldn't have in-person friends? Of course, they should. And we would strongly encourage Prisma families to make sure their kids are enrolled in extracurriculars in their community and that sort of thing. We've surveyed the kids. Every single Prisma learner has said that they've made strong friendships at Prisma. For some of them, it's many friendships. For some of them, it's a smaller number of friendships.
\n\nAnd the other thing that's just going really well, I think, better than in-person school or bricks and mortar school is the community we've created. It's a really, really supportive community of kids. There hasn't been this sorting that I think happens in schools, particularly at the middle school and high school level of like, you're part of that clique, and you're part of that clique. And we're a little cooler than you are. Maybe just the nature of virtual makes it harder to sort kids like that. And there's not the natural time of in the cafeteria where you have to decide where you're going to sit and that kind of awkwardness.
\n\nPlus, we did a lot of legwork upfront of working with the kids to say: What kind of community do we want to build here? What are the values of our cohort? What are the expectations of our cohort? And I think that really helped to create a community that's just really kind and supportive, pretty uniquely kind and supportive, I think.
\n\nCHAD: Cool. That's great. And now that you're up and running and continuing to grow, looking ahead, what are you most worried about now as your next challenge?
\n\nVICTORIA: I think the biggest, hardest thing for us to figure out is how to keep the level of quality, great results. I haven't even mentioned it yet, but we are making sure that kids are progressing both academically in terms of these holistic skills. And on the academic front, we've seen really amazing growth. So the kids did a nationally recognized assessment at the end of last year and at the beginning when they joined. And they grew in math at 153% of expected growth and 174% of expected growth in reading.
\n\nSo we've set a really high bar for ourselves. Kids are loving Prisma; 100% of kids said they're happier at Prisma than at their previous school. We have a really great Net Promoter Score, which means parents are really willing to recommend Prisma. We're seeing great growth in the kids. So how do we keep that super high bar whilst opening Prisma up to more and more and more kids? Because part of the attraction for us to offer a virtual model was the desire to be able to reach large numbers of kids if we came up with a model that really worked.
\n\nAnd I think through all of our research, one of the things we noticed is there are amazingly innovative schools out there. There are a lot of really innovative brick-and-mortar schools, actually, but they really haven't scaled. They tend to be...a few have scaled a bit, but they're still very limited in the number of kids that they can reach. And part of our thesis was that if you could do this online, just online is inherently more scalable. You're not dealing with buildings and everything that goes along with that.
\n\nBut nevertheless, we still are a model where coaches are really important. So our ability to continue to find, train, and develop coaches that are really awesome I think will be a challenge, something we're going to have to get really, really good at. And then just making sure that we can strike the right balance because we also want to be a model that's as affordable as possible and that requires us to make sure that our costs are reasonable. So striking that balance and trying to use technology to be as efficient as possible, I think that is the next set of challenges that we need to deal with.
\n\nCHAD: Are you comfortable sharing how many students you have now?
\n\nVICTORIA: Yeah, I'm comfortable with that because the number we have was very much set by our own desire to grow carefully. So we have almost 90 kids. And we have a very long waitlist, basically.
\n\nCHAD: Well, that's bigger than my high school graduating class. [laughs]
\n\nVICTORIA: Oh, there you go. [laughs] It's funny because people react differently to that. Some people are like, "Wow, that's pretty big." It's not nearly as big as we intend to get. But we decided to cap. We wanted to be disciplined. We had way more demand than that. But further to what I said of quality first and delighting customers first, we said, "No, we'll cut it off at that point." And families have gone on to a waitlist, which is growing by the day. And then we'll be able to let more families in throughout the year.
\n\nWe're small, but we're a lot bigger than we were in our first pilot year. And I think what's been really exciting is we're still somewhat early into the school year. But that level of delight, and excitement, and families just writing to us and saying, "I've never seen my kids so excited." And that's happening again. So it's really exciting to see that we're getting that again even though we have actually grown quite a bit relative to where we were.
\n\nCHAD: Well, congratulations on everything that you've achieved so far and in tackling these upcoming challenges.
\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you.
\n\nCHAD: If people want to find out more about Prisma and join or if they're interested in becoming a great coach, where can they do that?
\n\nVICTORIA: So the best place to go is our website which is joinprisma.com, so not prisma.com, joinprisma.com. We have a super detailed website, which I think is really informative. So that's a great place to start. You can also sign up for an info session there if you want to talk to someone live about Prisma. And then yes, we have job postings on there as well. And we're always super excited to hear from talented candidates. So that's the best place to go.
\n\nCHAD: And if people want to follow along with you personally or get in touch, where are the best places for them to do that?
\n\nVICTORIA: So we do have Prisma social media accounts, so Twitter is @joinprisma. And I'm not the most active person on social media. My husband is much more active, so they may want to follow him. He's Alain Chuard. I presume his Twitter handle is @AlainChuard, C-H-U-A-R-D. [laughs] And you can reach me if you email info@joinprisma.com, but you address it to Victoria. It will reach me, and I will reply.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. And people can find all these links and everything in the show notes, which are at giantrobots.fm. You can also subscribe to the show there as well. And if you have questions or comments for us, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Everybody, thanks for listening and see you next time. Thanks, Victoria.
\n\nVICTORIA: Thank you. Thanks so much.
\n\nAnnouncer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Victoria Ransom.
","summary":"Chad interviews Co-Founder and CEO, Victoria Ranson of Prisma. Prisma is a stealth-mode education startup on a mission to reimagine the way children are educated. Their mission is to create a generation capable of solving the world's biggest problems by creating and running a comprehensive virtual learning program for kids in grades 4-8 that is very unlike any other traditional homeschooling program you've ever heard of.","date_published":"2021-10-21T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/1e8fe895-4f85-4adb-8155-1528f72f2fb2.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":51039980,"duration_in_seconds":2502}]},{"id":"fd6cef63-e6e5-4d81-b139-50e9af5369be","title":"397: Driven By Fulfillment with Natalie Nzeyimana of Harbour","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/397","content_text":"At harbour.today, Natalie Nzeyimana and her team are helping people build holistic resilience. On this episode, she and Chad talk about building the app at the beginning of the pandemic when she witnessed herself and others feeling like they were close to drowning and feeling really unmoored.\n\nHarbour is a space for people to anchor themselves, find clarity, and set sail. The community offers one-to-one coaching, workshops, a course, and a daily check-in tool.\n\n\nharbour.today\nInstagram\nTwitter\nLunchclub\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And today, I'm joined by the founder of Harbour, Natalie Nzeyimana. So, Natalie, thanks for joining me. \n\nNATALIE: Thanks for having me on. \n\nCHAD: So tell me a little bit about what Harbour is.\n\nNATALIE: Sure. Harbour is a space for people to anchor self, find clarity, and set sail. We offer one-to-one coaching, workshops, a course, and a daily check-in tool. Harbour was built at the beginning of the pandemic when I witnessed within myself, and the people I knew who I'd worked with, friends, family, just a lot of us felt like we were close to drowning and feeling really unmoored. And so, it began as a course to think about the ways we could use holistic strategies to anchor ourselves and set sail. And from then, from November 2020 to now, it's become a product.\n\nCHAD: You started in November. And I know we first met in London a while ago. You were teaching yourself to code working on an education product if I remember right. And we got together at Google Space there and paired for a little bit. Did you code Harbour yourself?\n\nNATALIE: It feels like another lifetime.\n\nCHAD: [laughs] \n\nNATALIE: I think life before the pandemic and life after the pandemic; there’s a real line there. I've done quite a bit of the coding myself. However, I've also used a lot of no-code solutions to create MVPs. They've been amazing at helping me scale, helping me test out ideas incredibly quickly. \n\nAnd so one of the interesting things about juggling doing client work, and then also building the back end, and building the module, and then building the design work, and thinking about content juggling all of these different pieces, is that equation of do I invest time in HTML, or do I invest time in machine learning that's going to help me scale? And making all of those intricate decisions has been really, really interesting because, of course, I want to make everything myself. But these no-code solutions have enabled me to test hypotheses so much faster so that I can save time in the long run. \n\nCHAD: Well, tell us a little bit more about what the product is today and what you went through to get to this point.\n\nNATALIE: Sure. So initially, I just posted on LinkedIn to see who would want to join the course. I had a really simple Squarespace page, and then that evolved into a Typeform which I would use with clients to help them track progress and checking in with their chakras every day. And so, the way that Harbour works is that we do an energy review based on the seven in-body chakras. \n\nAnd so, for anyone who might be unfamiliar with this terminology, the chakras are...well, there are different schools of thought on this. They are a system for either focusing during meditation depending on where you sit in terms of your feelings towards energy bodies. They are a subtle body energy system of themselves. And what I find incredibly helpful for those chakras is that they help people map their energy in a way that I haven't found anything else does effectively. \n\nSo starting from the root chakra, which is the base of your spine, you can ask yourself, am I feeling safe? Am I feeling grounded? Am I feeling as though my material needs are met? \n\nTraveling up towards your reproductive area, you've got the sacral chakra which governs your sense of feeling as though you can desire the things that you desire in the world, feeling as though you are sensual. You're able to experience pleasure. You're able to be creative and playful. \n\nAnd then up to the solar plexus, which is around your navel area, governs the sense of personal power, empowerment, will, feeling as though you're able to go after your goals with chutzpah and energy. \n\nAnd then moving into the heart chakra, which governs this idea of do I feel as though I'm open to receiving and giving love freely? \n\nAnd the throat, do I feel as though I'm an open conduit for the truth of who I am? Do I feel as though I'm able to express myself fully in the world?\n\nAnd then into the third eye, which governs your intuition. Do I feel as though I'm able to trust my intuitive leads and to move with grace and ease, trusting and able to go with the flow? \n\nAnd then finally, we have the crown chakra, which governs do I feel open to receiving divine wisdom? Do I feel as though I'm in this world on my own and there's nothing but pure materiality? Or do I feel open to receiving what some people might call God or Allah or the Tao? Whatever your orientation is, do I feel open towards receiving that kind of wisdom? \n\nWhat's really beautiful about the chakras is that they've been used by ancient Chinese, ancient Egyptians, Tibetans, Sikhs, multiple traditions, and indigenous systems. And so there's kind of this lovely thread of people around the world thinking about how energy moves through our minds, bodies, and spirits. But that's quite a lot. So we just ask seven questions every day.\n\nCHAD: So I have to admit I was not...and my first exposure to this is this conversation. So is this something that you have been aware of and practicing prior to working on Harbour, or is it something that you found which then led you to the creation?\n\nNATALIE: Definitely the latter, the latter. So I went through a pretty gnarly, dark night of the soul and just had this huge existential crisis of wondering what am I here to do? Why am I here? What's my purpose in life? I don't know if other people might resonate with this, but kind of feeling that you make these huge or not so huge career goals, and then you reach them, and you still feel like something's missing. And in my quest to understand what that missing piece might be, I came across chakras, and I found it incredibly helpful. \n\nI think people who do yoga might be aware of this because they often come up to yoga. Physical movement is often a way of realigning and balancing the chakras. So there are specific movements or specific asanas that you can do to balance out your root chakra or balance out your Sacral Chakra, which is great because it's kind of like all of these different hacks you can do to bring your mind, body, and spirit back in line. And that's why I think I loved it because when I encountered a lot of other systems or other approaches, it just all felt a bit ephemeral and like I couldn't grasp it. But there was something about chakras that really spoke to the budding engineer within me because I was like, wait, you can just hack yourself into alignment? This is great. \n\n[chuckles]\n\nCHAD: So this is something you do daily.\n\nNATALIE: Well, something I try to do daily. [chuckles] \n\nCHAD: Okay. I meant, is this something one does daily? [chuckles]\n\nNATALIE: Yeah. Ideally, yes. Because it's like anything else that we do, if you want to maintain a certain level of well-being or perhaps a certain level of fluency, let's say, for example, in a language whether that's a programming language or the spoken language, you need to practice it every day. \n\nAnd so, with chakras and aligning one's mind, body, and spirit, it feels as though the stakes are slightly higher when we're in the middle of a pandemic, and there's so much uncertainty, and all of our lives have kind of been exposed to so much change. But yes, daily is optimal. Daily is, at least at Harbour, the bare minimum. \n\nWhat are some things that you do every day to balance your mind, body, and spirit? You may be aligning your chakras without quite realizing that you are.\n\nCHAD: Yeah. So I run every day. And I've often described that as that's my meditation. So I find that that really does wonders for reducing my overall stress. I do it in the morning before starting my day. And so, I think it really sets the foundation on which the rest of the day is built for me. And it wasn't until I made the commitment to do it every day. And now I run long distance enough where I need to take a rest day once a week. But when I made the commitment to do it every day, it really did change my relationship with running.\n\nNATALIE: That's so interesting. I was thinking about Kazuo Ishiguro's what I think about when I'm running or something along those lines. He's written this great book. And I know several people who run and have spoken of its incredible meditative qualities. And I think that's a wonderful way of connecting with yourself or creating space to connect with yourself. \n\nI also wanted to touch upon something that I know that we tend to move towards or perhaps even a dichotomy: do we meditate to relieve stress, or do we meditate to get closer to our divinity? And so one of the things at Harbour that we try to do is we try to help folks shift from meditating to relieve stress to meditating to connect with one's divinity, and that way, the stress doesn't become as prominent a factor for which meditation is there to alleviate.\n\nCHAD: What do you mean by divinity in this case?\n\nNATALIE: Yeah, great question. Very controversial. [laughs] I mean, it's 2021, and the least cool thing you could possibly do in an engineering environment is talk about God and the divine. I think there is a really interesting choice point we're at as a collective where there is an increased awareness of consciousness. So there's a lot of language in at least the tech community, from my experience, whether you've got things like Burning Man or just a lot of products and offerings out there, which are there to raise your consciousness. \n\nOne of the really tricky things about raising your consciousness...and in the chakra system, we do that through something that's called a kundalini awakening, which is where your consciousness does raise from the root chakra all the way to the crown. As your consciousness raises through the chakras, coming from the Indian tradition, what happens is your life force, your consciousness moves through your chakras, and each chakra it touches upon triggers a mini awakening. \n\nSo, for example, as your life force is moving through your root chakra, anything that may have happened in your childhood, anytime that you may have experienced any aspect of material instability, let's say you lost your job or you had a partnership fall apart, or any time where you felt like your world completely crumbled, that will likely be triggered when you're going through that mini awakening in that root chakra. \n\nI mentioned divinity because it feels as though there are two paths we can go down. We can either go down the path of I am raising my consciousness. I am the master of my own destiny. I know what I am here to do in life, and I'm in control of my own awakening. Or we can go down another path which is far trickier, which is sort of saying, \"At every point in every day, I choose to surrender to the wisdom that is far beyond me. And I'm going to trust the signals and the science that I receive that they are aligned with my highest good.\" \n\nOne of these paths is more egoic, and the other one is more surrendered. That's not to say that we don't need an ego. But the ego can get into really tricky territory when you're doing this kind of alignment and awakening work, and it can really do a lot of harm. And I don't say that through judgment. I say that because I've been through the wringer with a lot of ego deaths. \n\nAnd so, one of the safest ways to mitigate that risk of the ego taking over is to surrender to something that is far more wise than you. Perhaps you don't resonate with the idea that there is only one creator, and that's fine. But perhaps just from a logical point of view, it does seem to make more sense to surrender to the fact that there's something that knows more than I do at any moment.\n\nCHAD: So this is some really big stuff. \n\nNATALIE: Oh yeah. \n\nCHAD: Before we get much further into it, I think for listeners who want to learn more or are interested in what they're hearing and want to give it a try, where do they do that? Where do they find Harbour? And what is it going to look like?\n\nNATALIE: Sure. So you can follow us at harbour.today online on our website also on Instagram. And I'd love to invite your listeners to try out our 30-day trial, where if you complete 30 days of your chakra daily check-in, you'll receive access to our platform with activities, reading prompts, and also different course materials for free for a whole year. And I know I'm probably giving this away to a lot of people because all the engineers I know are very disciplined, [laughs] and they'll do this 30-day streak like it's a GitHub streak. \n\nCHAD: [laughs]\n\nNATALIE: So I'm shooting myself in the foot a little bit. But I'm really keen to offer folks who are asking these questions who are thinking about what am I here to do? Is there more? How do I engage with literature that could help me ask these questions more deeply within myself? And the daily check-in and the learning platform is a really simple way to do that.\n\nCHAD: Great. That's great. I hope folks check it out. So, in addition to the daily check-in, you just gave some hints on what is actually on the platform. There are reading prompts and those sorts of things. Is there more than that as well available?\n\nNATALIE: Definitely. So we are launching a monthly course on October 6th, and then the next one will be in January when we come back from the break called Organic Cycles. And the purpose of this course is to help people who are thinking about launching something. So you may have a side project that you're thinking about launching or perhaps a hobby that you feel like you want to take up, or maybe you even want to become an entrepreneur full time. But you're a little bit overwhelmed by what might be involved by that. \n\nAnd so at Harbour, we're real big believers in cyclic, iterative, sustainable growth. And so, we use the moon cycle for our sprints. We use it for measuring our tasks. And in Organic Cycles, you will learn about the moon. You'll follow the Moon Phases. And let's say, for example, you want to start a new business selling socks. [laughs] On the new moon on October the sixth, you will join us, and you will tell us all about your sock business. And we'll listen, and we'll make a plan as other people in the cosmic plan.\n\nIn the first quarter, we'll start thinking a little bit about why do you love socks so much? Where does that come from? And what are the small steps we can make together to help you grow your sock business within this moon cycle? Which is, of course, 28 days. On the full moon, we'll celebrate all the progress that you've made with your sock business. And together, we'll figure out the next steps. In the last quarter, we'll think about hmm, what were the experiments making the sock business so far that worked really well? What are the ones that didn't? Which ones would you like to take into the next cycle? And on the next new moon, we'll start all over again. \n\nAnd so it's very similar to an agile workflow, except you're learning about the moon. And the reason why I believe that's important is because a lot of our day-to-day lives are just so focused on abstract entities and not necessarily the natural world. And so a lot of the prompts in the daily review for Harbour are getting outside, all sorts of different things that reconnect you to nature as a way of rewilding you. \n\nSo yeah, I'd really love for folks to come on board. If you have any experience with agile, even if you don't and you're just curious about the moon, and want to find out a little bit more about the stars and anything natural, and meet other people who are curious about energy and ideation and how to create cycles which feel more organic, we'd love to have you along.\n\nCHAD: I really like the sound of this in that it's a structure to anything. A group environment where you're helping each other is great. Layering on the information about the moon and everything adds an additional element of interest to it. I'm just a big believer in being intentional about what we do in our businesses and in our lives. So any structure that can help people be intentional about what they do, I think is going to help people and help them be more successful than if they just don't have a plan and aren't intentional, aren't consciously thinking about what they want to achieve, and what they want for themselves. And helping people do that, I think, is great.\n\nNATALIE: Definitely. And I definitely have been on both sides of that coin, either having too much structure or no structure at all. And I think there's something really beautiful about naming things in ways that feel soft and ways that feel different to people so that they can access that idea and be playful with it and be creative. Because I know that for a lot of people who we work with, post-burnout, folks who are incredibly structured. The Harbour client is a recovering Type A like me who has probably been an overachiever at school and has probably been incredibly structured in their lives but didn't really know how to let go and didn't really know how to create fluidity and flow in their life.\n\nAnd so one of our tag lines is between discipline and surrender and a devotion to flow. And flow is made possible through that playfulness, and through that structure, and through those rituals, and through that surrender, which is really fun. And it's always really, really fun to see people connect the dots and see, oh, it's quite interesting. Like on full moons, I do have a lot more energy. Or on the new moons, I do feel a little bit more restful, and giving people prompts to add self-care and add meditation to their existing structures.\n\nCHAD: So this might be an overly practical question, but I'm curious how you manage time zones.\n\nNATALIE: [laughs] With naps.\n\n[laughter]\n\nCHAD: Okay. Fair enough.\n\nNATALIE: No, really, I do. I have naps. And I really love work...as you know, I've been working with folks in the U.S. for the last ten years. And I really enjoy it because I think it feels like transporting to a different environment. So, yeah, just a nap, and then I wake up, and I'm in a different country. It's great.\n\nCHAD: [laughs] So it's almost like you've actually traveled then.\n\nNATALIE: Exactly. Exactly.\n\nCHAD: Hopefully, a little less jetlag.\n\nNATALIE: Yeah, it's really great. What about in your work? I know that you're one of the most organized and structured people I've ever met. But sometimes, when I'm in Notion, I'm like, what would Chad do? [chuckles] But how do you find the balance between order and structure and allowing yourself the space to find flow and surrender even as a leader, even when you're building a product?\n\nCHAD: Well, thank you for the compliment. I appreciate it. Let me preface by saying I think that nothing ever stays the same. And so what I do today and what's working for me today is probably pretty different than three years ago because our teams are in different places, and the people I work with are different, and I'm in a different place. \n\nSo the thing that's working for me now is putting times blocked off on my calendar where I want to either...it's a regularly scheduled time. And I have one on Thursday; it's from 2:00 to 5:00 p.m. It's just blocked off, and it just says, \"Focus time.\" And each week, then I decide in advance what I'm going to be doing during that focus time. And it might be exploring something new. It might be working on something specific. And then, when I need to accomplish something else, making sure that I block off the time on the calendar. And so that's working for me now. And it's not what I used to do. I used to be much more freeform. Nowadays, if I don't block off the time, I lose it. \n\nPreviously, I could maintain a lot of free time on my calendar and use that as the time I was doing things. And as we grew and as I was working with people more across all of thoughtbot, across many different time zones, I needed to be much more conscious about what my scheduled time actually looked like and make sure that I'm scheduling time to work on things more freeform.\n\nNATALIE: Yeah, definitely. That's so helpful. And I like the idea of time blocking. I've been trying to do a little bit more of that. What's interesting, too, is as Harbour grows and the product grows, and thinking about scaling and trying to anticipate things before they happen, even though you can't anticipate everything, one of the exercises I've been thinking about is what would it feel like to have a team of this many people and meditate on that idea and see if it feels right? And do I necessarily need to have a team that looks like X or a team that looks like Y? And trying to meditate into what that experience would be before making the decision. And I'm wondering if, through your experience having run this global company and having scaled it over more than a decade, what are some of the things that you've done to pre-pave and to support the sustainable scaling of the business?\n\nCHAD: I think thinking things through in advance is very important. And I don't say the next thing I'm about to say because it's not important because I think that it is very important, and I certainly do it. But I've also come to grips over the years with the idea that no matter how much we plan, it's not going to go like we plan. And so there's this interesting balance between planning too much and reacting to what's happening. \n\nAnd I'll come back to intentionality. And the way that I talked about it at thoughtbot is letting fulfillment be our North Star. So we shouldn't be doing things just because we think they'll be good business decisions or because we think they're the right thing to do for some arbitrary reason. We should be driven by what we want to be doing in our work and what kind of company we want to be, and being fulfilled in our work. \n\nAnd when we're faced with a decision to make about who we are, or what we do, or how we're going to approach this, letting it be driven by fulfillment is very powerful. Because it means that likely what everyone wants from their work is not so different from one another, especially when we curate a team of people that want to work together for our working lives what might be. It's probably not so different from each other. \n\nSo that's also very powerful because it means that I don't need to be the one to make all of the decisions. Other people can make those decisions around who we are and what we'll do, and which direction will head in. And they'll very likely be what will be fulfilling to the rest of the team as well. And so it sort of democratizes that decision-making in a way which is more resilient and then can be more flexible. As our best-laid plans start to go awry, we're making decisions based on fulfillment. And I think that allows us to be resilient.\n\nNATALIE: Yeah, that's so helpful.\n\nCHAD: Because so much of what we've tried, particularly when we intentionally try to grow, so many of the decisions that have made thoughtbot successful we weren't making them for business reasons, we were making them because --\n\nNATALIE: They felt right.\n\nCHAD: They felt right. We were the first consulting company in the world to switch to Ruby on Rails. We didn't make that decision because we thought Rails was going to be popular. We made it because, as developers and designers, we were more fulfilled using this new thing, Rails, than using PHP or Java. And, in fact, if we had been focused on what we thought would be the successful business thing, we might never have chosen that because it can feel very risky because you're choosing something entirely unknown. \n\nSo the opposite example is we've tried very hard to grow over the years non-organically geographically. So someone is moving to this area, or we are going to hire someone in this area. And we're going to grow into this area. And it's not driven necessarily by fulfillment. And in a lot of those cases, it's been very difficult, or it's outright not been successful. And so, being able to react to those situations and adjust has been critical for our long-term success. \n\nAnother word I use often is grit. And grit, for me, means we fail a bunch but we stay at it because we are driven by...what's driving that is fulfillment. So even if we really believe in it, even if we've failed in execution for business reasons or something like that, we tend to stick with it over the long term and just try a different way.\n\nNATALIE: Yeah, I hear that. There is so much grit that's required to sustain something over a long period of time. And it feels like quite an incremental grit as opposed to huge pushes of energy that we might witness in different business models, for example, venture capital. And having been in the whirlwind of the VC world a little bit and now building what I hope is a more sustainable model, the grit is very moment to moment. It's continuous. Each task, each decision, it's a soft resilience that kind of grows over time as opposed to having to wield huge amounts of chutzpah to get through this investment cycle. Do you know what I mean?\n\nCHAD: I do, and I think that has a flip side as well, which I try to be conscious of but don't always do a good job with. I tend not to project too far; that’s one side. And then the reverse is also true, which I tend not to celebrate successes enough. I tend not to reflect on the past too much because I'm on to the next incremental improvement pretty quickly. That has benefits because when you have a down day, tomorrow is a new day. It's a brand new day. But that has downsides too, which is when you have a great day, [laughs] you're on to the next thing the next day as well, at least for me. I move on very quickly. And like I said, I think that has its benefits, and it has its downsides.\n\nNATALIE: What are your rituals for celebrating both personally and professionally? How do you celebrate yourself and the ways that you've grown? And how do you celebrate the business that you've grown with others? \n\nCHAD: Just being honest, I probably have not...I do not have rituals. And I think this is where having good partners, or other members of my team has been helpful because knowing that this will be my tendency, having other people backing me up to recognize the successes or to call me on when I’m moving on too quickly or something like that has been helpful. \n\nNATALIE: Yeah, definitely.\n\nCHAD: Are you working on Harbour solo right now, or are you working with others?\n\nNATALIE: Sure. Sometimes I work with a really wonderful ayurvedic practitioner called Sriram, who was an engineer for 15 years before he became an ayurvedic practitioner. So completely similar to you in that thought about going about and finding a co-founder or partnering with someone. And then I just had this really lovely chat with someone on Lunchclub. And we ended up talking about chakras for an hour and also coding. And I was like, this is my dream. [laughs] I get to talk about chakras, and I get to talk about product. This is great. And so, I work with Sriram sometimes on client work. Normally, the split is that he takes approximately a third of the client sessions, but we work on the one-to-one coaching. \n\nAnd so, I'm your accountability coach. And we're hiring more now, which is really exciting. And I'll do the weekly reviews with clients, and then Sriram will put together the ayurvedic program for the client. So that's always really great fun. And I'm also working with a wonderful designer based in San Francisco called Christina. And yeah, so the three of us...Sriram has his own practice, and Christina has her own agency. But there's a lot of collaborative work that's happening there. \n\nAnd I'm currently onboarding more coaches, which is exciting and very necessary because I came to a choice point, and I said, do I want to study chakras and become qualified? And I realized I didn't. I wanted to talk to all the people who knew about chakras and who were qualified, and so that's been a lovely experience onboarding them, and onboarding therapists, and onboarding other personal development coaches who are going to be able to serve clients as we scale.\n\nCHAD: Nice. You mentioned Lunchclub many times in the story of Harbour on the website. I have never used Lunchclub. But I heard of it before. And if folks haven't heard of it, what's the pitch for Lunchclub? \n\n[chuckles]\n\nNATALIE: It's LinkedIn as you'd want it to be. \n\n[laughter]\n\nCHAD: Oh, that's great. That's great.\n\nNATALIE: I think Lunchclub gets rid of all of the bravado and all of the stuff on LinkedIn because I think a lot of us do really struggle with self-promotion online. But at the same time, we want to connect with people. And we want to have real conversations that hopefully lead to more conversations or more opportunities for both parties. \n\nAnd when I started on Lunchclub about a year and a half ago, it was just an incredible way to connect with people around the world. I'd just moved into a flat. I was living on my own in the middle of the pandemic and in the middle of the lockdown building product. And I thought, I really need to chat to people because I really enjoy doing that. \n\nAnd through 45-minute conversations, you get matched by their little magical AI, and you connect with people who might be related to the interests that you have. And you can build streaks. And the more streaks you build, the more points you get. And the more points you get, the more you can choose who you connect with based on geography and business development goals, et cetera. Well, even if you do choose I want to meet an investor or I want to meet a Biz Dev specialist, this isn't really a sales call or an investment pitch. It's just I want to increase the likelihood that the person I meet will be aligned with where I'm trying to get on my journey.\n\nCHAD: Well, the pandemic has been a really difficult time for everybody, parents, and of which I count myself in that. In particular, seeing it across thoughtbot, obviously, a trend is the people who live alone had an especially challenging time during the strictest of the lockdowns that were happening. And it was challenging. We saw a lot of people struggling. And because we were all remote, you're remote all day working. You don't necessarily want to be reaching out to people remotely, just that energy there. And I think that's maybe where Harbour comes in is solving that energy problem that I think many of us are feeling now.\n\nNATALIE: Definitely. I think what happened over the last year and a half, two years, has created a tectonic shift, but I think also a portal because it's forced us to reckon with ourselves in ways that perhaps we had been ignoring, in ways that we didn't know we needed to, in ways that we've been forced to. And it can be really scary. And even as an adult, that's weird. It's weird to feel that scared as an adult. It's weird to feel that displaced as an adult. It's weird to feel so unmoored. It's weird to feel like you're starting from scratch again, not necessarily in terms of your career or what you post on LinkedIn about who you are, but inside that, you really are starting from scratch: Who am I without access to my friends? Who am I without access to family members? Who am I without X? Who am I without Y? \n\nAnd so, the pandemic kind of energetically takes everything away, and so we can see ourselves more clearly. And that can be really strange because we haven't had the opportunity to do that in the past. And for many folks, often, we don't engage with mental health or well-being until something goes wrong. And we don't really engage with these ideas until we feel we're at a breaking point. And so the pandemic being the biggest breaking point we've had as a collective, at least in the Western world, we are forced to do that reckoning. \n\nAnd so, of course, it's not just a loneliness pandemic; it's not just a burnout pandemic. I really do think it's an existential pandemic because people are wondering, or at least I am, and I know others who are, and I think others who are listening might be: Who am I? What am I here to do? What's my destiny? Why am I here? What's next? How do I make sense of all of the things that have happened in my life so far? And because there's no noise and no distraction or no busyness much as there was before the pandemic, you really are just there with yourself reckoning with those questions.\n\nCHAD: Well, Natalie, I'm happy to see that someone emerged on the other side of this with a new product.\n\nNATALIE: [laughs]\n\nCHAD: And I wish you the best.\n\nNATALIE: Thank you. Thank you very much.\n\nCHAD: Again, if folks want to sign up or check it out more or just follow along with you, where are all the places that they can do that?\n\nNATALIE: Sure. I would love for folks to connect on Instagram, harbour.today. You can also sign up to our newsletter. We have a daily email that comes out with questions from our community. So folks might ask things along the lines of what I've been describing, and we'll respond with some chakra guidance, some ancient philosophy that might be helpful, and also some practical tools, things that you can do like walking barefoot in your local park. Or some breathing exercises that might help you find balance within, or some yoga can really help you hack your chakras back into alignment, or some scripture that may help you reconnect with your divinity.\n\nCHAD: Wonderful. You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm. And we are emerging into this new season with full transcripts of every show as well. So you can find those on the website. And it will be included in the show notes, so they appear in your podcast player as well. I'm excited. It's something that we have been talking about doing for a while, but the time and expense of it traditionally was prohibitive. But we've made it happen for this new season in no small thanks to our new editor and producer, Mandy Moore. \n\nSo if you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and edited by Mandy Moore.\n\nAnnouncer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.Special Guest: Natalie Nzeyimana.","content_html":"At harbour.today, Natalie Nzeyimana and her team are helping people build holistic resilience. On this episode, she and Chad talk about building the app at the beginning of the pandemic when she witnessed herself and others feeling like they were close to drowning and feeling really unmoored.
\n\nHarbour is a space for people to anchor themselves, find clarity, and set sail. The community offers one-to-one coaching, workshops, a course, and a daily check-in tool.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And today, I'm joined by the founder of Harbour, Natalie Nzeyimana. So, Natalie, thanks for joining me.
\n\nNATALIE: Thanks for having me on.
\n\nCHAD: So tell me a little bit about what Harbour is.
\n\nNATALIE: Sure. Harbour is a space for people to anchor self, find clarity, and set sail. We offer one-to-one coaching, workshops, a course, and a daily check-in tool. Harbour was built at the beginning of the pandemic when I witnessed within myself, and the people I knew who I'd worked with, friends, family, just a lot of us felt like we were close to drowning and feeling really unmoored. And so, it began as a course to think about the ways we could use holistic strategies to anchor ourselves and set sail. And from then, from November 2020 to now, it's become a product.
\n\nCHAD: You started in November. And I know we first met in London a while ago. You were teaching yourself to code working on an education product if I remember right. And we got together at Google Space there and paired for a little bit. Did you code Harbour yourself?
\n\nNATALIE: It feels like another lifetime.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nNATALIE: I think life before the pandemic and life after the pandemic; there’s a real line there. I've done quite a bit of the coding myself. However, I've also used a lot of no-code solutions to create MVPs. They've been amazing at helping me scale, helping me test out ideas incredibly quickly.
\n\nAnd so one of the interesting things about juggling doing client work, and then also building the back end, and building the module, and then building the design work, and thinking about content juggling all of these different pieces, is that equation of do I invest time in HTML, or do I invest time in machine learning that's going to help me scale? And making all of those intricate decisions has been really, really interesting because, of course, I want to make everything myself. But these no-code solutions have enabled me to test hypotheses so much faster so that I can save time in the long run.
\n\nCHAD: Well, tell us a little bit more about what the product is today and what you went through to get to this point.
\n\nNATALIE: Sure. So initially, I just posted on LinkedIn to see who would want to join the course. I had a really simple Squarespace page, and then that evolved into a Typeform which I would use with clients to help them track progress and checking in with their chakras every day. And so, the way that Harbour works is that we do an energy review based on the seven in-body chakras.
\n\nAnd so, for anyone who might be unfamiliar with this terminology, the chakras are...well, there are different schools of thought on this. They are a system for either focusing during meditation depending on where you sit in terms of your feelings towards energy bodies. They are a subtle body energy system of themselves. And what I find incredibly helpful for those chakras is that they help people map their energy in a way that I haven't found anything else does effectively.
\n\nSo starting from the root chakra, which is the base of your spine, you can ask yourself, am I feeling safe? Am I feeling grounded? Am I feeling as though my material needs are met?
\n\nTraveling up towards your reproductive area, you've got the sacral chakra which governs your sense of feeling as though you can desire the things that you desire in the world, feeling as though you are sensual. You're able to experience pleasure. You're able to be creative and playful.
\n\nAnd then up to the solar plexus, which is around your navel area, governs the sense of personal power, empowerment, will, feeling as though you're able to go after your goals with chutzpah and energy.
\n\nAnd then moving into the heart chakra, which governs this idea of do I feel as though I'm open to receiving and giving love freely?
\n\nAnd the throat, do I feel as though I'm an open conduit for the truth of who I am? Do I feel as though I'm able to express myself fully in the world?
\n\nAnd then into the third eye, which governs your intuition. Do I feel as though I'm able to trust my intuitive leads and to move with grace and ease, trusting and able to go with the flow?
\n\nAnd then finally, we have the crown chakra, which governs do I feel open to receiving divine wisdom? Do I feel as though I'm in this world on my own and there's nothing but pure materiality? Or do I feel open to receiving what some people might call God or Allah or the Tao? Whatever your orientation is, do I feel open towards receiving that kind of wisdom?
\n\nWhat's really beautiful about the chakras is that they've been used by ancient Chinese, ancient Egyptians, Tibetans, Sikhs, multiple traditions, and indigenous systems. And so there's kind of this lovely thread of people around the world thinking about how energy moves through our minds, bodies, and spirits. But that's quite a lot. So we just ask seven questions every day.
\n\nCHAD: So I have to admit I was not...and my first exposure to this is this conversation. So is this something that you have been aware of and practicing prior to working on Harbour, or is it something that you found which then led you to the creation?
\n\nNATALIE: Definitely the latter, the latter. So I went through a pretty gnarly, dark night of the soul and just had this huge existential crisis of wondering what am I here to do? Why am I here? What's my purpose in life? I don't know if other people might resonate with this, but kind of feeling that you make these huge or not so huge career goals, and then you reach them, and you still feel like something's missing. And in my quest to understand what that missing piece might be, I came across chakras, and I found it incredibly helpful.
\n\nI think people who do yoga might be aware of this because they often come up to yoga. Physical movement is often a way of realigning and balancing the chakras. So there are specific movements or specific asanas that you can do to balance out your root chakra or balance out your Sacral Chakra, which is great because it's kind of like all of these different hacks you can do to bring your mind, body, and spirit back in line. And that's why I think I loved it because when I encountered a lot of other systems or other approaches, it just all felt a bit ephemeral and like I couldn't grasp it. But there was something about chakras that really spoke to the budding engineer within me because I was like, wait, you can just hack yourself into alignment? This is great.
\n\n[chuckles]
\n\nCHAD: So this is something you do daily.
\n\nNATALIE: Well, something I try to do daily. [chuckles]
\n\nCHAD: Okay. I meant, is this something one does daily? [chuckles]
\n\nNATALIE: Yeah. Ideally, yes. Because it's like anything else that we do, if you want to maintain a certain level of well-being or perhaps a certain level of fluency, let's say, for example, in a language whether that's a programming language or the spoken language, you need to practice it every day.
\n\nAnd so, with chakras and aligning one's mind, body, and spirit, it feels as though the stakes are slightly higher when we're in the middle of a pandemic, and there's so much uncertainty, and all of our lives have kind of been exposed to so much change. But yes, daily is optimal. Daily is, at least at Harbour, the bare minimum.
\n\nWhat are some things that you do every day to balance your mind, body, and spirit? You may be aligning your chakras without quite realizing that you are.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. So I run every day. And I've often described that as that's my meditation. So I find that that really does wonders for reducing my overall stress. I do it in the morning before starting my day. And so, I think it really sets the foundation on which the rest of the day is built for me. And it wasn't until I made the commitment to do it every day. And now I run long distance enough where I need to take a rest day once a week. But when I made the commitment to do it every day, it really did change my relationship with running.
\n\nNATALIE: That's so interesting. I was thinking about Kazuo Ishiguro's what I think about when I'm running or something along those lines. He's written this great book. And I know several people who run and have spoken of its incredible meditative qualities. And I think that's a wonderful way of connecting with yourself or creating space to connect with yourself.
\n\nI also wanted to touch upon something that I know that we tend to move towards or perhaps even a dichotomy: do we meditate to relieve stress, or do we meditate to get closer to our divinity? And so one of the things at Harbour that we try to do is we try to help folks shift from meditating to relieve stress to meditating to connect with one's divinity, and that way, the stress doesn't become as prominent a factor for which meditation is there to alleviate.
\n\nCHAD: What do you mean by divinity in this case?
\n\nNATALIE: Yeah, great question. Very controversial. [laughs] I mean, it's 2021, and the least cool thing you could possibly do in an engineering environment is talk about God and the divine. I think there is a really interesting choice point we're at as a collective where there is an increased awareness of consciousness. So there's a lot of language in at least the tech community, from my experience, whether you've got things like Burning Man or just a lot of products and offerings out there, which are there to raise your consciousness.
\n\nOne of the really tricky things about raising your consciousness...and in the chakra system, we do that through something that's called a kundalini awakening, which is where your consciousness does raise from the root chakra all the way to the crown. As your consciousness raises through the chakras, coming from the Indian tradition, what happens is your life force, your consciousness moves through your chakras, and each chakra it touches upon triggers a mini awakening.
\n\nSo, for example, as your life force is moving through your root chakra, anything that may have happened in your childhood, anytime that you may have experienced any aspect of material instability, let's say you lost your job or you had a partnership fall apart, or any time where you felt like your world completely crumbled, that will likely be triggered when you're going through that mini awakening in that root chakra.
\n\nI mentioned divinity because it feels as though there are two paths we can go down. We can either go down the path of I am raising my consciousness. I am the master of my own destiny. I know what I am here to do in life, and I'm in control of my own awakening. Or we can go down another path which is far trickier, which is sort of saying, "At every point in every day, I choose to surrender to the wisdom that is far beyond me. And I'm going to trust the signals and the science that I receive that they are aligned with my highest good."
\n\nOne of these paths is more egoic, and the other one is more surrendered. That's not to say that we don't need an ego. But the ego can get into really tricky territory when you're doing this kind of alignment and awakening work, and it can really do a lot of harm. And I don't say that through judgment. I say that because I've been through the wringer with a lot of ego deaths.
\n\nAnd so, one of the safest ways to mitigate that risk of the ego taking over is to surrender to something that is far more wise than you. Perhaps you don't resonate with the idea that there is only one creator, and that's fine. But perhaps just from a logical point of view, it does seem to make more sense to surrender to the fact that there's something that knows more than I do at any moment.
\n\nCHAD: So this is some really big stuff.
\n\nNATALIE: Oh yeah.
\n\nCHAD: Before we get much further into it, I think for listeners who want to learn more or are interested in what they're hearing and want to give it a try, where do they do that? Where do they find Harbour? And what is it going to look like?
\n\nNATALIE: Sure. So you can follow us at harbour.today online on our website also on Instagram. And I'd love to invite your listeners to try out our 30-day trial, where if you complete 30 days of your chakra daily check-in, you'll receive access to our platform with activities, reading prompts, and also different course materials for free for a whole year. And I know I'm probably giving this away to a lot of people because all the engineers I know are very disciplined, [laughs] and they'll do this 30-day streak like it's a GitHub streak.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nNATALIE: So I'm shooting myself in the foot a little bit. But I'm really keen to offer folks who are asking these questions who are thinking about what am I here to do? Is there more? How do I engage with literature that could help me ask these questions more deeply within myself? And the daily check-in and the learning platform is a really simple way to do that.
\n\nCHAD: Great. That's great. I hope folks check it out. So, in addition to the daily check-in, you just gave some hints on what is actually on the platform. There are reading prompts and those sorts of things. Is there more than that as well available?
\n\nNATALIE: Definitely. So we are launching a monthly course on October 6th, and then the next one will be in January when we come back from the break called Organic Cycles. And the purpose of this course is to help people who are thinking about launching something. So you may have a side project that you're thinking about launching or perhaps a hobby that you feel like you want to take up, or maybe you even want to become an entrepreneur full time. But you're a little bit overwhelmed by what might be involved by that.
\n\nAnd so at Harbour, we're real big believers in cyclic, iterative, sustainable growth. And so, we use the moon cycle for our sprints. We use it for measuring our tasks. And in Organic Cycles, you will learn about the moon. You'll follow the Moon Phases. And let's say, for example, you want to start a new business selling socks. [laughs] On the new moon on October the sixth, you will join us, and you will tell us all about your sock business. And we'll listen, and we'll make a plan as other people in the cosmic plan.
\n\nIn the first quarter, we'll start thinking a little bit about why do you love socks so much? Where does that come from? And what are the small steps we can make together to help you grow your sock business within this moon cycle? Which is, of course, 28 days. On the full moon, we'll celebrate all the progress that you've made with your sock business. And together, we'll figure out the next steps. In the last quarter, we'll think about hmm, what were the experiments making the sock business so far that worked really well? What are the ones that didn't? Which ones would you like to take into the next cycle? And on the next new moon, we'll start all over again.
\n\nAnd so it's very similar to an agile workflow, except you're learning about the moon. And the reason why I believe that's important is because a lot of our day-to-day lives are just so focused on abstract entities and not necessarily the natural world. And so a lot of the prompts in the daily review for Harbour are getting outside, all sorts of different things that reconnect you to nature as a way of rewilding you.
\n\nSo yeah, I'd really love for folks to come on board. If you have any experience with agile, even if you don't and you're just curious about the moon, and want to find out a little bit more about the stars and anything natural, and meet other people who are curious about energy and ideation and how to create cycles which feel more organic, we'd love to have you along.
\n\nCHAD: I really like the sound of this in that it's a structure to anything. A group environment where you're helping each other is great. Layering on the information about the moon and everything adds an additional element of interest to it. I'm just a big believer in being intentional about what we do in our businesses and in our lives. So any structure that can help people be intentional about what they do, I think is going to help people and help them be more successful than if they just don't have a plan and aren't intentional, aren't consciously thinking about what they want to achieve, and what they want for themselves. And helping people do that, I think, is great.
\n\nNATALIE: Definitely. And I definitely have been on both sides of that coin, either having too much structure or no structure at all. And I think there's something really beautiful about naming things in ways that feel soft and ways that feel different to people so that they can access that idea and be playful with it and be creative. Because I know that for a lot of people who we work with, post-burnout, folks who are incredibly structured. The Harbour client is a recovering Type A like me who has probably been an overachiever at school and has probably been incredibly structured in their lives but didn't really know how to let go and didn't really know how to create fluidity and flow in their life.
\n\nAnd so one of our tag lines is between discipline and surrender and a devotion to flow. And flow is made possible through that playfulness, and through that structure, and through those rituals, and through that surrender, which is really fun. And it's always really, really fun to see people connect the dots and see, oh, it's quite interesting. Like on full moons, I do have a lot more energy. Or on the new moons, I do feel a little bit more restful, and giving people prompts to add self-care and add meditation to their existing structures.
\n\nCHAD: So this might be an overly practical question, but I'm curious how you manage time zones.
\n\nNATALIE: [laughs] With naps.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nCHAD: Okay. Fair enough.
\n\nNATALIE: No, really, I do. I have naps. And I really love work...as you know, I've been working with folks in the U.S. for the last ten years. And I really enjoy it because I think it feels like transporting to a different environment. So, yeah, just a nap, and then I wake up, and I'm in a different country. It's great.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] So it's almost like you've actually traveled then.
\n\nNATALIE: Exactly. Exactly.
\n\nCHAD: Hopefully, a little less jetlag.
\n\nNATALIE: Yeah, it's really great. What about in your work? I know that you're one of the most organized and structured people I've ever met. But sometimes, when I'm in Notion, I'm like, what would Chad do? [chuckles] But how do you find the balance between order and structure and allowing yourself the space to find flow and surrender even as a leader, even when you're building a product?
\n\nCHAD: Well, thank you for the compliment. I appreciate it. Let me preface by saying I think that nothing ever stays the same. And so what I do today and what's working for me today is probably pretty different than three years ago because our teams are in different places, and the people I work with are different, and I'm in a different place.
\n\nSo the thing that's working for me now is putting times blocked off on my calendar where I want to either...it's a regularly scheduled time. And I have one on Thursday; it's from 2:00 to 5:00 p.m. It's just blocked off, and it just says, "Focus time." And each week, then I decide in advance what I'm going to be doing during that focus time. And it might be exploring something new. It might be working on something specific. And then, when I need to accomplish something else, making sure that I block off the time on the calendar. And so that's working for me now. And it's not what I used to do. I used to be much more freeform. Nowadays, if I don't block off the time, I lose it.
\n\nPreviously, I could maintain a lot of free time on my calendar and use that as the time I was doing things. And as we grew and as I was working with people more across all of thoughtbot, across many different time zones, I needed to be much more conscious about what my scheduled time actually looked like and make sure that I'm scheduling time to work on things more freeform.
\n\nNATALIE: Yeah, definitely. That's so helpful. And I like the idea of time blocking. I've been trying to do a little bit more of that. What's interesting, too, is as Harbour grows and the product grows, and thinking about scaling and trying to anticipate things before they happen, even though you can't anticipate everything, one of the exercises I've been thinking about is what would it feel like to have a team of this many people and meditate on that idea and see if it feels right? And do I necessarily need to have a team that looks like X or a team that looks like Y? And trying to meditate into what that experience would be before making the decision. And I'm wondering if, through your experience having run this global company and having scaled it over more than a decade, what are some of the things that you've done to pre-pave and to support the sustainable scaling of the business?
\n\nCHAD: I think thinking things through in advance is very important. And I don't say the next thing I'm about to say because it's not important because I think that it is very important, and I certainly do it. But I've also come to grips over the years with the idea that no matter how much we plan, it's not going to go like we plan. And so there's this interesting balance between planning too much and reacting to what's happening.
\n\nAnd I'll come back to intentionality. And the way that I talked about it at thoughtbot is letting fulfillment be our North Star. So we shouldn't be doing things just because we think they'll be good business decisions or because we think they're the right thing to do for some arbitrary reason. We should be driven by what we want to be doing in our work and what kind of company we want to be, and being fulfilled in our work.
\n\nAnd when we're faced with a decision to make about who we are, or what we do, or how we're going to approach this, letting it be driven by fulfillment is very powerful. Because it means that likely what everyone wants from their work is not so different from one another, especially when we curate a team of people that want to work together for our working lives what might be. It's probably not so different from each other.
\n\nSo that's also very powerful because it means that I don't need to be the one to make all of the decisions. Other people can make those decisions around who we are and what we'll do, and which direction will head in. And they'll very likely be what will be fulfilling to the rest of the team as well. And so it sort of democratizes that decision-making in a way which is more resilient and then can be more flexible. As our best-laid plans start to go awry, we're making decisions based on fulfillment. And I think that allows us to be resilient.
\n\nNATALIE: Yeah, that's so helpful.
\n\nCHAD: Because so much of what we've tried, particularly when we intentionally try to grow, so many of the decisions that have made thoughtbot successful we weren't making them for business reasons, we were making them because --
\n\nNATALIE: They felt right.
\n\nCHAD: They felt right. We were the first consulting company in the world to switch to Ruby on Rails. We didn't make that decision because we thought Rails was going to be popular. We made it because, as developers and designers, we were more fulfilled using this new thing, Rails, than using PHP or Java. And, in fact, if we had been focused on what we thought would be the successful business thing, we might never have chosen that because it can feel very risky because you're choosing something entirely unknown.
\n\nSo the opposite example is we've tried very hard to grow over the years non-organically geographically. So someone is moving to this area, or we are going to hire someone in this area. And we're going to grow into this area. And it's not driven necessarily by fulfillment. And in a lot of those cases, it's been very difficult, or it's outright not been successful. And so, being able to react to those situations and adjust has been critical for our long-term success.
\n\nAnother word I use often is grit. And grit, for me, means we fail a bunch but we stay at it because we are driven by...what's driving that is fulfillment. So even if we really believe in it, even if we've failed in execution for business reasons or something like that, we tend to stick with it over the long term and just try a different way.
\n\nNATALIE: Yeah, I hear that. There is so much grit that's required to sustain something over a long period of time. And it feels like quite an incremental grit as opposed to huge pushes of energy that we might witness in different business models, for example, venture capital. And having been in the whirlwind of the VC world a little bit and now building what I hope is a more sustainable model, the grit is very moment to moment. It's continuous. Each task, each decision, it's a soft resilience that kind of grows over time as opposed to having to wield huge amounts of chutzpah to get through this investment cycle. Do you know what I mean?
\n\nCHAD: I do, and I think that has a flip side as well, which I try to be conscious of but don't always do a good job with. I tend not to project too far; that’s one side. And then the reverse is also true, which I tend not to celebrate successes enough. I tend not to reflect on the past too much because I'm on to the next incremental improvement pretty quickly. That has benefits because when you have a down day, tomorrow is a new day. It's a brand new day. But that has downsides too, which is when you have a great day, [laughs] you're on to the next thing the next day as well, at least for me. I move on very quickly. And like I said, I think that has its benefits, and it has its downsides.
\n\nNATALIE: What are your rituals for celebrating both personally and professionally? How do you celebrate yourself and the ways that you've grown? And how do you celebrate the business that you've grown with others?
\n\nCHAD: Just being honest, I probably have not...I do not have rituals. And I think this is where having good partners, or other members of my team has been helpful because knowing that this will be my tendency, having other people backing me up to recognize the successes or to call me on when I’m moving on too quickly or something like that has been helpful.
\n\nNATALIE: Yeah, definitely.
\n\nCHAD: Are you working on Harbour solo right now, or are you working with others?
\n\nNATALIE: Sure. Sometimes I work with a really wonderful ayurvedic practitioner called Sriram, who was an engineer for 15 years before he became an ayurvedic practitioner. So completely similar to you in that thought about going about and finding a co-founder or partnering with someone. And then I just had this really lovely chat with someone on Lunchclub. And we ended up talking about chakras for an hour and also coding. And I was like, this is my dream. [laughs] I get to talk about chakras, and I get to talk about product. This is great. And so, I work with Sriram sometimes on client work. Normally, the split is that he takes approximately a third of the client sessions, but we work on the one-to-one coaching.
\n\nAnd so, I'm your accountability coach. And we're hiring more now, which is really exciting. And I'll do the weekly reviews with clients, and then Sriram will put together the ayurvedic program for the client. So that's always really great fun. And I'm also working with a wonderful designer based in San Francisco called Christina. And yeah, so the three of us...Sriram has his own practice, and Christina has her own agency. But there's a lot of collaborative work that's happening there.
\n\nAnd I'm currently onboarding more coaches, which is exciting and very necessary because I came to a choice point, and I said, do I want to study chakras and become qualified? And I realized I didn't. I wanted to talk to all the people who knew about chakras and who were qualified, and so that's been a lovely experience onboarding them, and onboarding therapists, and onboarding other personal development coaches who are going to be able to serve clients as we scale.
\n\nCHAD: Nice. You mentioned Lunchclub many times in the story of Harbour on the website. I have never used Lunchclub. But I heard of it before. And if folks haven't heard of it, what's the pitch for Lunchclub?
\n\n[chuckles]
\n\nNATALIE: It's LinkedIn as you'd want it to be.
\n\n[laughter]
\n\nCHAD: Oh, that's great. That's great.
\n\nNATALIE: I think Lunchclub gets rid of all of the bravado and all of the stuff on LinkedIn because I think a lot of us do really struggle with self-promotion online. But at the same time, we want to connect with people. And we want to have real conversations that hopefully lead to more conversations or more opportunities for both parties.
\n\nAnd when I started on Lunchclub about a year and a half ago, it was just an incredible way to connect with people around the world. I'd just moved into a flat. I was living on my own in the middle of the pandemic and in the middle of the lockdown building product. And I thought, I really need to chat to people because I really enjoy doing that.
\n\nAnd through 45-minute conversations, you get matched by their little magical AI, and you connect with people who might be related to the interests that you have. And you can build streaks. And the more streaks you build, the more points you get. And the more points you get, the more you can choose who you connect with based on geography and business development goals, et cetera. Well, even if you do choose I want to meet an investor or I want to meet a Biz Dev specialist, this isn't really a sales call or an investment pitch. It's just I want to increase the likelihood that the person I meet will be aligned with where I'm trying to get on my journey.
\n\nCHAD: Well, the pandemic has been a really difficult time for everybody, parents, and of which I count myself in that. In particular, seeing it across thoughtbot, obviously, a trend is the people who live alone had an especially challenging time during the strictest of the lockdowns that were happening. And it was challenging. We saw a lot of people struggling. And because we were all remote, you're remote all day working. You don't necessarily want to be reaching out to people remotely, just that energy there. And I think that's maybe where Harbour comes in is solving that energy problem that I think many of us are feeling now.
\n\nNATALIE: Definitely. I think what happened over the last year and a half, two years, has created a tectonic shift, but I think also a portal because it's forced us to reckon with ourselves in ways that perhaps we had been ignoring, in ways that we didn't know we needed to, in ways that we've been forced to. And it can be really scary. And even as an adult, that's weird. It's weird to feel that scared as an adult. It's weird to feel that displaced as an adult. It's weird to feel so unmoored. It's weird to feel like you're starting from scratch again, not necessarily in terms of your career or what you post on LinkedIn about who you are, but inside that, you really are starting from scratch: Who am I without access to my friends? Who am I without access to family members? Who am I without X? Who am I without Y?
\n\nAnd so, the pandemic kind of energetically takes everything away, and so we can see ourselves more clearly. And that can be really strange because we haven't had the opportunity to do that in the past. And for many folks, often, we don't engage with mental health or well-being until something goes wrong. And we don't really engage with these ideas until we feel we're at a breaking point. And so the pandemic being the biggest breaking point we've had as a collective, at least in the Western world, we are forced to do that reckoning.
\n\nAnd so, of course, it's not just a loneliness pandemic; it's not just a burnout pandemic. I really do think it's an existential pandemic because people are wondering, or at least I am, and I know others who are, and I think others who are listening might be: Who am I? What am I here to do? What's my destiny? Why am I here? What's next? How do I make sense of all of the things that have happened in my life so far? And because there's no noise and no distraction or no busyness much as there was before the pandemic, you really are just there with yourself reckoning with those questions.
\n\nCHAD: Well, Natalie, I'm happy to see that someone emerged on the other side of this with a new product.
\n\nNATALIE: [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: And I wish you the best.
\n\nNATALIE: Thank you. Thank you very much.
\n\nCHAD: Again, if folks want to sign up or check it out more or just follow along with you, where are all the places that they can do that?
\n\nNATALIE: Sure. I would love for folks to connect on Instagram, harbour.today. You can also sign up to our newsletter. We have a daily email that comes out with questions from our community. So folks might ask things along the lines of what I've been describing, and we'll respond with some chakra guidance, some ancient philosophy that might be helpful, and also some practical tools, things that you can do like walking barefoot in your local park. Or some breathing exercises that might help you find balance within, or some yoga can really help you hack your chakras back into alignment, or some scripture that may help you reconnect with your divinity.
\n\nCHAD: Wonderful. You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm. And we are emerging into this new season with full transcripts of every show as well. So you can find those on the website. And it will be included in the show notes, so they appear in your podcast player as well. I'm excited. It's something that we have been talking about doing for a while, but the time and expense of it traditionally was prohibitive. But we've made it happen for this new season in no small thanks to our new editor and producer, Mandy Moore.
\n\nSo if you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and edited by Mandy Moore.
\n\nAnnouncer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Natalie Nzeyimana.
","summary":"At harbour.today, Natalie Nzeyimana and her team are helping people build holistic resilience. On this episode, she and Chad talk about building the app at the beginning of the pandemic when she witnessed herself and others feeling like they were close to drowning and feeling really unmoored.\r\n\r\nHarbour is a space for people to anchor themselves, find clarity, and set sail. The community offers one-to-one coaching, workshops, a course, and a daily check-in tool.","date_published":"2021-10-14T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/fd6cef63-e6e5-4d81-b139-50e9af5369be.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":46804566,"duration_in_seconds":2377}]},{"id":"1c1025e2-aa1e-4615-a158-2c56bec7733b","title":"396: Product Roadmaps Aren’t Dead; They Smell","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/396","content_text":"Lindsey and Chad talk about product roadmaps. Are they dead? Lindsey and Chad think they just smell. \n\nWe also say an emotional goodbye to Lindsey as she moves on to new adventures. We miss you!\n\n\nBuffer Transparent Product Roadmap\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nLINDSEY: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Lindsey Christensen.\n\nCHAD: And I'm your other host, Chad Pytel. \n\nLINDSEY: And today we're going to talk about product roadmaps.\n\nCHAD: Product roadmaps. [laughs] \n\nLINDSEY: Whoa. This is the topic. I feel like recently I've seen some thought pieces that product roadmaps are dead. So I'm curious if you think product roadmaps are dead. \n\nCHAD: No, I don't think that they're dead, but I want to make the distinction too. I've never believed in a public product roadmap because I think that sets you up for just disappointing everyone involved, your customer, yourselves. And I think that there's a balance to be struck there. Saying that product roadmaps don't have a place, to me, in my mind, is like saying planning, having plans doesn't have a place and that just doesn't ring true to me. I think you should plan out what you're going to be working on. But I'm sure we'll get more into it. I also believe things about not having big backlogs and not doing too much planning and that kind of thing. So it depends on what you mean by a product roadmap. \n\nLINDSEY: Well, yeah. I think that therein lies the issue. You can do it well, and you can also [laughs] run it into the ground. But you mentioned having it public and that being a bad idea. And I think at the core of product roadmaps is communication and alignment and getting all of your stakeholders on the same page about what you're building and why. So to me, I would think those stakeholders are the leadership team of the company, if this is a product company and product is the main business driver, the leadership of the company, the product team, of course, and engineering, sales, and marketing as well. Am I missing others? Clients, customers.\n\nCHAD: Right. Customers.\n\nLINDSEY: How do you feel about it? Does that count as the externally facing do not reveal?\n\nCHAD: Oh yeah, it does for me. So we've all seen the companies that say that they're going to do something and then in a best-case scenario, that becomes a deadline which was arbitrarily made in the first place that everyone is stressing out over, that sales is potentially making promises that are either going to need to be broken or are going to need to be super stressed over. And then in a worst-case scenario, you end up not delivering on that roadmap as you essentially promised. And you actually end up with disappointed customers. \n\nLINDSEY: So you would recommend not telling the customers about future features. \n\nCHAD: Yeah. I think there's a balance to be struck there. So certainly, if you know that you're working on something now like actively working on something and a customer were to ask you about that thing directly, I might say, \"Yeah, we're working on that now, and we're excited about getting it out to you.\" But I have only [chuckles] ever been a part of when a team is saying, \"Q3 of next year, six months, nine months down the road, this specific feature is going to make it to customers.\" That's a real recipe, in my experience, a real recipe for lots of people being either really disappointed in that not happening or really working unsustainably in order to hit that in the first place. It's really hard to plan software that far in advance. \n\nWe just had the CEO of Dragon Innovation on the podcast. And I think that even then, you have to be careful with hardware, but at least with hardware or other kinds of businesses, it's a little bit easier to say, \"Our goal is to have this incorporated in the product, or whatever, in the next revision of the hardware. And we expect to do that two years from now,\" or something like that. That's a little bit easier to put a bow around, I think.\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. I was a part of a software company that got acquired by a hardware company. And all of a sudden, we were wrapped into these 5 to 10-year product roadmaps that were blowing all of our minds [laughs] and a very different fit than how we were used to working.\n\nCHAD: Yeah. It's worth noting that there are some companies that essentially go so far as to publish a Trello board of their roadmap. I don't know which ones they are. [chuckles] I have to find them. But even then, they're not necessarily making hard promises. And if you're committed to being transparent and publishing some roadmap to the public, the ways that I've seen it done best are working in themes. So you say, \"Two quarters from now, our focus is going to be on reporting,\" or something like that. That is a little bit...because you're not making specific promises. You're just establishing a theme of what your focus is going to be on for that time. You can imagine you can still get yourself into a position where customers are putting all their hopes and dreams on what that's going to look like, and maybe your support staff or salespeople or whatever start to make promises about what's going to be delivered in that time. And then again, a bunch of people end up disappointed. \n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. I've also seen what I think to be the most successful roadmaps be based around themes. And I think it’s also…again, going back to that, the fact that it's, in addition, to actually delivering product and delivering good product, it's helping align your internal team around what you're doing. So to rally your whole team or your whole company around reporting is the next big thing that we're working on, and this is why. This is what we've heard from users, from our research. And this is the direction we're going in and then actually getting everyone working towards reporting in their own ways. Marketing can be working on content around reporting. Hopefully, sales is seeding the idea of maybe not promising around reporting as well. \n\nAnd that also really appeals to me as a marketer and as someone who's thinking often about how do we get folks moving in the same direction, speaking the same language and creating some momentum around something that can differentiate us, get people excited about what we're doing? Then hopefully, it's also strategically valuable to the company adding a new feature or entirely a new product. You're expanding your offering and maybe even your market reach. Who do you think are the most important folks within the company to be driving the product roadmap? Who owns the product roadmap?\n\nCHAD: Well, [laughs] so if you have a company that has a roadmap...I'm getting distracted by the premise here. Let's just come back to that a bit. Momentum is key. You used the word momentum. And if you're feeling the need to plan things out or to gain a sense of clarity on your team about what's going to be done, and what's important, and you need to do a long-term roadmap in order to do that, that to me does point to it's sort of a smell. That's what we do when there's a code problem. We say it's a code smell. It points to if you had a team that was continually delivering value to your customers, to your users, and that you had a team where when sales, or marketing, or someone learned something about what will be valuable to customers and it's validated that it's valuable, and it gets put into the design and development process, and it comes out relatively soon, there's no need for a product roadmap. \n\nOr I should say people don't feel the need for a product roadmap as much because they have high confidence that user needs are going to be met in a tight feedback cycle and that there's not a loss of momentum. And things going into the system are coming out in a week, two weeks, three weeks. Even four weeks, you can maintain that sense of momentum of we understood that this was important. We validated that it was. It went into the system, and it came out the other side, and it's in the hands of users. It's only when that starts to break down that stakeholders start to say, \"We need to plan. We need a roadmap,\" because they lack the confidence that putting things into the system they're going to see them come out the other side in a way that maintains momentum.\n\nLINDSEY: Does that depend on the size of the company? \n\nCHAD: Well, ideally, even companies of large size are able to do that, but we all know that that's difficult. It may be that most companies just can't do that. And when that's the case, you have that breakdown. You have that lack of confidence. You have a system where you aren't putting things in and quickly seeing them come out the other side. And so that's where something like a product roadmap you start to say we need that in place. And I think that that's why it often happens as teams get bigger and as companies get more complex. \n\nLINDSEY: Interesting. So product roadmaps are not dead, but roadmap can be a smell. \n\nCHAD: Yes. [chuckles] Yeah, that's what I would say. That's my opinion.\n\nLINDSEY: Who owns that smell?\n\nCHAD: So now to get back to who owns the product roadmap, if your customers aren't the ones driving what's on the roadmap, then something is fundamentally broken. At the end of the day, the real owners of the product roadmap, even though they probably shouldn't see it, are the users, the customers. But I don't think that's the question you were asking. Who decides what's on the roadmap? It's got to be the people who are closest to hearing customers and who have the vision for what the product is supposed to be. So that will often be the company leadership, the CEO, the chief product officer, something like that combined with people who are talking with customers.\n\nLINDSEY: So on the opposite end of the spectrum, if it's a big company, maybe it's a little bit harder to operate without the roadmap. If you're a really small and young company, let's say, and you already have a roadmap, is that too much? \n\nCHAD: Well, this is a podcast, so we can have opinions. I would say [laughs] growth opinion, high-level position, yeah, you should probably not have that roadmap. Now the devil is in the details. What is the roadmap? Is it high-level themes? Is it I'm building this idea, and I'm a visionary about what this product is going to be, and I've laid out in broad strokes...we've done an initial version, a minimum viable product, and we have a vision for where we're going over the next year or two? There's a way to do that which doesn't then convert into this rigid product roadmap. And I think that that's what people who say product roadmaps are dead and you shouldn't be doing them; that’s what they're pushing against is that really rigid expectation setting system where promises get made and then broken.\n\nLINDSEY: Right and promising especially deadlines far out into the future.\n\nCHAD: And they also understand or believe that if you have a product roadmap, it potentially puts you in a position where you stop listening to customers because you say, \"In six months, this is the thing that we're going to be working on.\" And then you get there, and you just work on it, and you deliver it without having learned along the way that the next most important thing might be something completely different. And so that's another risk with product roadmaps is you start working to the roadmap instead of working to what your users are telling you. So at that company, I'm not surprised to hear that it was a 5-year, 10-year thing, and then it's based off of a thing, Was it really concrete, or was it more sort of vision stuff?\n\nLINDSEY: It was very concrete, I would say.\n\nCHAD: Yeah. [laughs] \n\nLINDSEY: And it's interesting because a lot of it was around trying to be first to market with cutting edge technologies. And on the hardware side, there was also R&D and multiple scientific teams working on specific things. And actually, to get more concrete, I think I can share without giving specifics. So it was 3D printing, and there's like an arms race in 3D printing to be able to print with new materials. So there are multiple teams working on trying to figure out how to print with new materials. And then we had these really long-term product roadmaps that were like by this year; we’re going to have gone to market with it and using that as a way to stay ahead of the competition basically. \n\nCHAD: I can imagine that from a business perspective, you're looking at that situation, and you say...and this is true both in science and in software. But from a business perspective, it's saying, \"If we don't have this deadline in place, then we have a research project that's just going to go on. We need this timeline, this deadline to hold everyone accountable to what a goal is and to make sure that we're bringing new products to market in that timeframe.\" And then the scientists are probably saying, \"We have no idea. It's completely arbitrary. We think that we could do this, but what happens when we don't? What happens when we don't have something?\" \n\nA lot of times, I make an analogy between science and even software development and art because it is a creative process. It's all in our heads, and we're just coming up with it. You can say, \"I need to have the book,\" or \"I need to have this painting finished by this time.\" But it's very difficult to then ensure that that is actually going to happen at the creative level of saying, \"I'm proud of this work, or it's good.\" It's hard to do that. \n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, and I think there was an element too of either we will figure it out, or we will acquire whoever figures it out. And then there's a separate team that's off trying to suss out who's figuring it out and what are they willing to be bought for? [laughs]\n\nCHAD: Right. And maybe from a business perspective, a lot of that makes sense. And you have to balance all of those things in order to try to be successful from a business perspective. \n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. It's interesting on the hardware side, too, especially as you do get closer to actually launching. It can be very waterfall-esque working towards launch because there are so many dependencies in order to get the thing built and shipped and launched on time.\n\nCHAD: I found a Quora thread about companies that have made their roadmap public. \n\nLINDSEY: Did any do it successfully? \n\nCHAD: [laughs]\n\nLINDSEY: I've only seen nightmare stories. Like, let this be a lesson. Here's a company that made their roadmap public, and within weeks they were disappointing people. [laughs]\n\nCHAD: I think that it's tempting, you know, and I think we should just do it. Part of the benefit of not having a roadmap that people say is that it allows not only the flexibility for what you're going to do to change based on what you learn. But the other is it offers you the opportunity to surprise and delight customers. And it allows you not to say, \"This thing is six months away,\" but to say, \"Here it is now.\" And one of the best examples of that that I think we're all familiar with is Apple. Apple doesn't typically pre-announce products that far in advance. And they're even a hardware company. They're clearly working on things years in the making. But they don't talk about them publicly until it's like, you can order this today, or you can order this on Wednesday. And the excitement and momentum that Apple builds around that is like the Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Willy Wonka kind of secretive thing. It's super exciting to customers, and they're super successful doing it. \n\nAnd last year, we had a really public thing where...actually, it was I guess two years ago that the saga started when Apple unusually announced AirPower, which is a charging mat that could charge both of your phone and your watch and everything all at the same time. They announced that far in advance. And then it actually ended up never shipping, and they eventually canceled the product. And they had to do all of that publicly, which is very, very different from Apple. I imagine that there are tons of products that Apple thinks that they're going to eventually release, and they don't work out, and they have to kill the projects. And all of that happens behind closed doors. \n\nLINDSEY: So we don't know of anyone who does it successfully. What does Quora say?\n\nCHAD: Quora doesn't know. A lot of the companies are not even in business anymore. [laughter] \n\nLINDSEY: There you go.\n\nCHAD: Buffer has apparently...Buffer has a transparent product roadmap. And I guess if there's any company that does transparency pretty well that I could point to, it would be Buffer. So we can link to that in the show notes. How does this board work? We've made this to give you a clear view into what we're working on, what we're about to work on, and what we're thinking about working on. We hope you enjoy the peek behind the scenes. They have four lanes: potential, next up, in progress, and done. They have voting enabled on their Trello board so their customers can vote on the different things that they have going on. \n\nLINDSEY: Are you in the actual board? \n\nCHAD: I am on the actual board, yeah. \n\nLINDSEY: How many votes? What kind of numbers are we talking?\n\nCHAD: So the in-progress thing that they are currently working on is a better way to manage campaigns in Buffer, and it has four votes.\n\nLINDSEY: Oh.\n\nCHAD: [laughs] So it doesn't seem like there's tons of engagement. There's another one, the best time to post to maximize your reach. It has seven votes. \n\nLINDSEY: Okay, so a pretty low number.\n\nCHAD: Pretty low. Oh, here's one, flexible pricing for Buffer has 67 votes. So I think you can get a little sense of the engagement that's on there. But I like that there's no description on these cards. It's just a better way to manage campaigns in Buffer. So they're not saying what they're going to be doing. There are no timelines on any of these cards. It was only moved to in progress. And they're not saying anything on these cards from what I can see about when it's going to be done or what is actually going to be entailed in it. I encourage people to look at this. It's pretty good in terms of potentially ways to make a public roadmap work for you and your customers. \n\nLINDSEY: And what about thoughtbot? We also heavily gravitate towards the Trello management. \n\nCHAD: Yeah. This is clearly not their actual Trello board. It's a specific board created for a transparent roadmap.\n\nLINDSEY: It’s a distraction.\n\nCHAD: [laughs] Yeah. If we were going to do something like this… \n\nLINDSEY: I guess I meant as far as tools; what are the things that you have seen work with…? My guess would be Trello because we use that a lot for managing projects.\n\nCHAD: Yeah, we use it for managing pretty much every project. And longtime followers of thoughtbot will know that we used to use a tool called Pivotal Tracker. And then, we created our own tool called Trajectory, which doesn't exist anymore. But the big thing about that was it was really meant to address the flow between coming up with ideas and the design thinking that goes into evolving a product idea and then breaking it down into stories and doing the stories from there. \n\nAnd we switched to Trello in part because of the flexibility of Trello. Trello is not specific to any one product or any one workflow. And so, the nature of software development is again a reason why product roadmaps can be troublesome because things change constantly. You're constantly learning. You should be meeting on a regular feedback cycle of not only how is our product working for people and what should we do differently, but how is our process of developing that product working, and what should we be doing differently? That's one of the great things about Trello is that because it's so flexible, you can say, \"Yeah, we're having this problem with our process. Let's change it.\" And you can usually find a way to embrace that flexibility in Trello. \n\nLINDSEY: And how do you know that your product roadmap is on the right track? Or what are some smells that you're going in the wrong direction? We talk about customers being happy. What does that actually mean, and what does that look like?\n\nCHAD: If the things that are going into what you're doing on your product are coming from users, and then they're going back to them, and they're receiving usage, that's a really good sign. And a lot of teams look at and measure cycle time, so the total time for something that goes into the process to come out the other side and get in the hands of users. And a lot of teams really high functioning teams will be working to make that as short as possible. And one of the reasons why is because that gives a sense to your customers that your product is continually moving forward in a way that comes from their needs. And that's a really good place to be in. You know what I mean? \n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, that makes sense.\n\nCHAD: Do you use any products where you feel like they've got that flow working really well? \n\nLINDSEY: As far as asking for feedback and then incorporating it into the product?\n\nCHAD: Yeah, or even just that you use the product and you're maybe not even giving them feedback directly, but you have a vague sense of how your need might not be met. And they're releasing features and that kind of thing on a semi-regular basis where you say, \"I didn't even realize I needed that, but now that I have it, it makes me happy.\" Or \"Boy, that really solved this problem that I was facing.\" \n\nLINDSEY: I think the one that comes to mind immediately is Slack, actually. I feel like their product releases often speak to something I was feeling. Like, I think especially they seem attuned to the fact that it can create a lot of noise. And so providing or increasing the different ways that you can personalize your own experience so that you can mute things or have certain kinds of notifications or be able to set hours that you're away and unavailable. Those releases, I think, feel especially personal when I see those come through. \n\nCHAD: I think you're right. Slack is one where that would be the case. And it's worth noting that Slack does publish a roadmap, and they've been doing it for a couple of years. Particularly, it seems like, from the outside, a big part of what drove that and what's in their marketing around it is better setting expectations with their enterprise customers and that sort of thing rather than necessarily not meeting the needs of actual users. \n\nLINDSEY: They also seem especially responsive and helpful out in the world too. I've seen multiple instances of folks I know tweeting about a bug or something in Slack, and very quickly, the Slack account is responding with how to fix it or notifying that it's been logged in, and they'll be following up, that kind of thing. \n\nCHAD: So I'm looking at the Slack one a little bit more, and it seems like the roadmap is centered primarily around what they call the platform roadmap. So it's more like APIs and system-level things that they're going to be focusing on or adding rather than user-facing features. So it's more serving the needs of people who are building on top of the Slack platform versus saying that their product is going to have a specific feature at this time that's user-facing. \n\nLINDSEY: That's interesting.\n\nCHAD: Which makes sense because people building on top of the Slack platform who are really dependent for their business needs on the Slack platform are going to have high expectations for knowing what's coming and knowing that their needs are being addressed at some point in the future. \n\nLINDSEY: Right. And on the enterprise side, as they're getting more enterprise customers, I imagine that could come into play as well where enterprise companies are going to have some dependencies or requirements that maybe the Slack team hasn't had to deal with before, which could be integrations. It could be certain kinds of security measures, which if they're definitely working on those or creating the necessary partnerships, it can also make sense to say, \"We have in our sites this integration or the security measure coming by the end of the year,\" kind of thing.\n\nCHAD: Yeah. So one that I have...and it's interesting because I think they've been doing a good job lately, but they went through a real period of time where I felt like they weren't doing as good a job with it, and it’s GitHub. So GitHub lately has done a much better job of, for me as a developer, as a user of GitHub every day, delivering features where it's like, yeah, this is awesome, and it fills a need or a pain that I was really having. Or I didn't even realize that I was going to need this feature, and now that it's here, I can't imagine it being any different. \n\nAnd they do that, as far as I know, there's not a public roadmap for GitHub. And GitHub, I could be completely wrong on this; they do a conference. They do shows. And what they're doing at that is they're announcing things. So they're more on the sliding scale towards Apple, where they're announcing general availability or beta availability of new features at their events as opposed to saying, \"Here's what the roadmap for the next year looks like.\" \n\nLINDSEY: Which does create a forcing function of having things ready enough, maybe not launchable but ready enough that you can at least talk about it and talk about the timeline. \n\nCHAD: Yeah. And we had the product manager of the payments that GitHub announced on a previous episode. Her name's Devon. And that's one of the things she talked about was working towards that deadline of that presentation and how stressful it was and making sure that they manage scope within that. \n\nLINDSEY: So, do you think GitHub has been doing a better job since they were acquired? \n\nCHAD: It doesn't so much match since when they've been acquired, but there was a period of time where...and maybe it could be that there's nothing GitHub-specific about this, but there's probably a period in every product's time where you go from this is a new thing, and so there are so many new features that are low hanging fruit. And you can quickly roll them out, bang, bang, bang for a long period of time. Your roadmap is just sitting there in front of you, waiting for you to do it. You don't need to worry too much about it. That's, depending on the product, probably six months, a year, two years, maybe even five years. But then you're going to work your way through that list and the things that you do next, particularly if you reach a growth stage, which means that your core customers may be different than your original core customers…where you can enter a lull. And you need to take some time to figure out what the next phase of your product looks like. It's possible that it happened with GitHub. \n\nI tend to think that it's more that internally GitHub had real challenges. And we know it had some issues with sexual harassment and workplace issues like that. I think that really got in the way of GitHub functioning well. That's my theory. But again, I'm totally on the outside. But I do know that they went through some significant restructuring and addressing a lot of those issues and creating what is hopefully a more inclusive workplace where people can do their best work. And then good work started to come out again.\n\nLINDSEY: As far as launching products or new features, it's always interesting and challenging I think with SaaS products where you're continuously releasing improvements and how you think about…again, from the marketing fun of it too a little bit, is like how you think about when is something like a new launch? When is something a significant enough new feature? Is this actually a separate product from what we've been offering? And sometimes, that can be really obvious. Going back to the reporting example, that's a nice kind of shiny new toy in your platform that you're going to have, like a dashboard. The difficult ones are performance improvements. But I was curious if you have any takes on that too. \n\nCHAD: Yeah. What I've always done on the products that I've worked on...and thoughtbot has created several products that have been fairly successful not only for our clients but for ourselves as well. I've always favored not underestimating people's ability to absorb significant product changes as long as they're coming from a place of you know that they are needed. And that if you're shipping regular new things on a basis, not all of your customers know about that right away, and so you can take a marketing touchpoint for those changes. And even though you have a sense of urgency about communicating them right away, you do have some time to do that. \n\nI think I said earlier when I was starting out, \"Underestimate people.\" What I think I meant was overestimate. We, as people who are very close to the product, assume that the minute we deploy a new feature or a change that everyone in the world is going to know about it. And that's just not the reality of what it's going to be. So when rolling out new features, you have to communicate them to the people who are touching them and are who are hitting them.\n\nBut there are almost multiple layers of marketing and communication for any new feature that's going out, communicating with immediate customers that are touching a new feature, and then making sure that everything that's going out is flowing through marketing and is coordinated with marketing around what those touchpoints are going to be. And the general guideline that I've always used is at least once a month; there should be a major round-up or communication about a significant change that has been made. And I've always felt really good about the products that I was working on if we were in that cycle like we're continually delivering new things. But then, on a monthly basis, there's at least one new either individually significant thing that we can talk about. Or absent of that, doing a roundup of a theme of changes or just here are three major improvements we've made in the last month.\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, I totally agree. It's great to have those opportunities to engage with customers and keep them invested in the product, and looking forward to those regular updates as well. \n\nCHAD: Right. So when we think back to Trello boards or roadmaps and that kind of thing, I don't think marketing should be…after that fact, marketing shouldn't be saying like, \"What was just released? Can we know?\" and then responding to it. Marketing should have insight into what's in the backlog, what's the next things that are going into production. What are the things we're planning now? And they should be contributing to that process because, in a lot of companies, marketing is going to be on the front lines of interacting with customers. So you're going to hear things, and you're going to see things and that should contribute to the process.\n\nLINDSEY: Right. Ideally, the marketing team is also customer-facing and providing those insights as well and tapped into what folks are having challenges with or looking forward to as well as what else they have their eye on that others are offering or trying out that are your competition.\n\nCHAD: So that's the cadence that when I'm in charge of a product, I've tried to achieve. It's easier to do in the early days of a product when, like I was saying, you don't even need the roadmap. There's so much low-hanging fruit, and everything is valuable, and the priorities are relatively clear. It's harder to maintain that pace far into your product's future not only because what you're doing is less clear and maybe less valuable to all of your customers but also that daily, weekly, monthly pace can be difficult to keep up indefinitely just from a sustainability standpoint. \n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. I feel like sometimes I even see products incorporating content in those later stages as ways to keep folks engaged and updated and have that be a feature of the product, whether it's community-based or the company itself actually producing new content and incorporating that into the product. \n\nCHAD: Yeah. So a really good example of that is (Boy, we've had a lot of good people on the podcast.) the folks at Wistia, which is a local company to Boston. And they're continually evolving what their product is offering. And they're launching new features. They're doing new things. But a big part of what you see publicly from them is also new content that helps people be better creators. So they are a good example that comes to mind of a company that does that pretty well. \n\nLINDSEY: So, we're going to be talking to three other startups of different stages in different industries about how they approach their product roadmap. Any sense for what might be consistent versus what is different? I imagine you also have insight from seeing a ton of client projects. Are certain areas of product roadmap more consistent than others? \n\nCHAD: I suspect what we're going to hear from the early-stage companies is that they actually have what...They're probably either going to say, \"We have no idea. We're just flying by the seat of our pants.\" But actually, I think it wouldn't be surprising to me if there's just so much low-hanging fruit in front of us that that gives them a sense of a clear product roadmap. And they say, \"Yeah, we do know. We do have a sense of what we're going to be doing next week and the week after.\" But they're going to not be so worried about what six months from now looks like. \n\nAnd I think a common trend of later-stage companies is I wouldn't be surprised to hear that they're very focused on partnerships and external relationships in a way that early companies aren't. And that is one of the factors which we haven't really touched on is, anytime you start involving external people the same way with Slack; it’s like people who are depending on you for their own business needs outside of your users creates more pressure for you to set expectations with them and to introduce roadmaps. So companies that are really focused on that who have channels and partnerships and that kind of thing are going to have more desire or pressure to introduce some form of roadmap. \n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. And in a way, that's the later stage companies' low-hanging fruit. When you bring in a partner, or you make an acquisition and immediately fill in a need that you've identified or an opportunity that you've identified, instead of taking your existing team to build it, or hire a team, or work with someone like thoughtbot.\n\nCHAD: Yeah. And it could be that that is actually totally the right thing. Because if you give everybody the benefit of the doubt and you say, \"This product has been well-managed and user-centric to meet the needs of the users, then you're going to get that cycle.\" In the early days, we know what we should be doing, and our users are telling us. And we've got a lot of things to introduce into the product to fully meet the needs of those customers. And you're going to do that, and it's going to serve you for a really long time for delivering new things to them.\n\nBut at some point, again, giving the benefit of the doubt, assuming you've done that and things have gone well, there is a point at which you say, \"We've delivered all of that. And we have a product which is meeting the needs of our users. It's fulfilling the job to be done of those users.\" You say, \"Okay, great.\" So we're either bringing new people in who might have different needs and different jobs to be done. Or we are exploring other business opportunities like bringing on partners and opening up new channels which have their own needs that are driving your product roadmap, or they're bringing in customers who have a different job to be done.\n\nLINDSEY: And honestly, it's an easy way for early-stage companies too to add a partner and gain access to their audience. But it's not likely that they're going to want to partner with you [laughs] because you're not bringing anything to the table, so you got to do that building first.\n\nCHAD: Yeah. So we'll see what they say. I'm looking forward to the conversations. So, Linsdey, you have some personal news. \n\nLINDSEY: Yes. With mixed emotions, I'll be moving on from thoughtbot and the podcast. \n\nCHAD: This comes as a complete surprise to me. You're just springing this to me on the podcast.\n\nLINDSEY: I know. I know I told you I wanted you to join five minutes earlier. And it's inappropriate.\n\nCHAD: [chuckles]\n\nLINDSEY: No, that's not true. I used all the proper channels. I read the handbook. But yeah, end of an era, moving on. But dang, it's been a lot of fun, hasn't it? \n\nCHAD: It has been fun. It's been great working with you. The impact that you've had on thoughtbot will be long-lasting. It was significant and long-lasting. I think that you joined at a really interesting time. Pandemic and all that stuff aside, completely separate from that, we were going through important transitions, and I think you're an important part of this. I remember commenting to you not long after you joined when you gave the first company-wide presentation that you were the first person I think who had ever done a full company-wide presentation like that, besides me.\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. Wow. This feels like so long ago.\n\nCHAD: And you're just so fun to work with and collaborate with and just be a team member with that you're definitely going to be missed. So thank you for everything. \n\nLINDSEY: Thank you. I am definitely not tearing up. So no one has to worry about that. It's hard to look back without getting choked up. It's been a really great experience. [laughter]\n\nCHAD: I'm glad to hear that. You brought so much to the table. We learned a lot along the way, and it wasn't always easy. We had a marketing team working in a certain way, which went through a big change. I think we learned a lot about how the next phase of thoughtbot needs to work, and I think you're an important part of getting there. So thanks again. \n\nLINDSEY: Thanks for having me. Thanks to all of you for listening. And I'm now available as a guest, which is the great news. \n\nCHAD: [laughs]\n\nLINDSEY: And I almost know how to set up all my recording settings, so that's half the battle. But it's been real, and thank you for the opportunity from the experience. \n\nCHAD: So we will be back in a little while with new episodes of the show. You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm. \n\nIf you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel. \n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. And for all you listeners out there, I'll talk to you next time. Bye.\n\nAnnouncer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.","content_html":"Lindsey and Chad talk about product roadmaps. Are they dead? Lindsey and Chad think they just smell.
\n\nWe also say an emotional goodbye to Lindsey as she moves on to new adventures. We miss you!
\n\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nLINDSEY: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Lindsey Christensen.
\n\nCHAD: And I'm your other host, Chad Pytel.
\n\nLINDSEY: And today we're going to talk about product roadmaps.
\n\nCHAD: Product roadmaps. [laughs]
\n\nLINDSEY: Whoa. This is the topic. I feel like recently I've seen some thought pieces that product roadmaps are dead. So I'm curious if you think product roadmaps are dead.
\n\nCHAD: No, I don't think that they're dead, but I want to make the distinction too. I've never believed in a public product roadmap because I think that sets you up for just disappointing everyone involved, your customer, yourselves. And I think that there's a balance to be struck there. Saying that product roadmaps don't have a place, to me, in my mind, is like saying planning, having plans doesn't have a place and that just doesn't ring true to me. I think you should plan out what you're going to be working on. But I'm sure we'll get more into it. I also believe things about not having big backlogs and not doing too much planning and that kind of thing. So it depends on what you mean by a product roadmap.
\n\nLINDSEY: Well, yeah. I think that therein lies the issue. You can do it well, and you can also [laughs] run it into the ground. But you mentioned having it public and that being a bad idea. And I think at the core of product roadmaps is communication and alignment and getting all of your stakeholders on the same page about what you're building and why. So to me, I would think those stakeholders are the leadership team of the company, if this is a product company and product is the main business driver, the leadership of the company, the product team, of course, and engineering, sales, and marketing as well. Am I missing others? Clients, customers.
\n\nCHAD: Right. Customers.
\n\nLINDSEY: How do you feel about it? Does that count as the externally facing do not reveal?
\n\nCHAD: Oh yeah, it does for me. So we've all seen the companies that say that they're going to do something and then in a best-case scenario, that becomes a deadline which was arbitrarily made in the first place that everyone is stressing out over, that sales is potentially making promises that are either going to need to be broken or are going to need to be super stressed over. And then in a worst-case scenario, you end up not delivering on that roadmap as you essentially promised. And you actually end up with disappointed customers.
\n\nLINDSEY: So you would recommend not telling the customers about future features.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. I think there's a balance to be struck there. So certainly, if you know that you're working on something now like actively working on something and a customer were to ask you about that thing directly, I might say, "Yeah, we're working on that now, and we're excited about getting it out to you." But I have only [chuckles] ever been a part of when a team is saying, "Q3 of next year, six months, nine months down the road, this specific feature is going to make it to customers." That's a real recipe, in my experience, a real recipe for lots of people being either really disappointed in that not happening or really working unsustainably in order to hit that in the first place. It's really hard to plan software that far in advance.
\n\nWe just had the CEO of Dragon Innovation on the podcast. And I think that even then, you have to be careful with hardware, but at least with hardware or other kinds of businesses, it's a little bit easier to say, "Our goal is to have this incorporated in the product, or whatever, in the next revision of the hardware. And we expect to do that two years from now," or something like that. That's a little bit easier to put a bow around, I think.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. I was a part of a software company that got acquired by a hardware company. And all of a sudden, we were wrapped into these 5 to 10-year product roadmaps that were blowing all of our minds [laughs] and a very different fit than how we were used to working.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. It's worth noting that there are some companies that essentially go so far as to publish a Trello board of their roadmap. I don't know which ones they are. [chuckles] I have to find them. But even then, they're not necessarily making hard promises. And if you're committed to being transparent and publishing some roadmap to the public, the ways that I've seen it done best are working in themes. So you say, "Two quarters from now, our focus is going to be on reporting," or something like that. That is a little bit...because you're not making specific promises. You're just establishing a theme of what your focus is going to be on for that time. You can imagine you can still get yourself into a position where customers are putting all their hopes and dreams on what that's going to look like, and maybe your support staff or salespeople or whatever start to make promises about what's going to be delivered in that time. And then again, a bunch of people end up disappointed.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. I've also seen what I think to be the most successful roadmaps be based around themes. And I think it’s also…again, going back to that, the fact that it's, in addition, to actually delivering product and delivering good product, it's helping align your internal team around what you're doing. So to rally your whole team or your whole company around reporting is the next big thing that we're working on, and this is why. This is what we've heard from users, from our research. And this is the direction we're going in and then actually getting everyone working towards reporting in their own ways. Marketing can be working on content around reporting. Hopefully, sales is seeding the idea of maybe not promising around reporting as well.
\n\nAnd that also really appeals to me as a marketer and as someone who's thinking often about how do we get folks moving in the same direction, speaking the same language and creating some momentum around something that can differentiate us, get people excited about what we're doing? Then hopefully, it's also strategically valuable to the company adding a new feature or entirely a new product. You're expanding your offering and maybe even your market reach. Who do you think are the most important folks within the company to be driving the product roadmap? Who owns the product roadmap?
\n\nCHAD: Well, [laughs] so if you have a company that has a roadmap...I'm getting distracted by the premise here. Let's just come back to that a bit. Momentum is key. You used the word momentum. And if you're feeling the need to plan things out or to gain a sense of clarity on your team about what's going to be done, and what's important, and you need to do a long-term roadmap in order to do that, that to me does point to it's sort of a smell. That's what we do when there's a code problem. We say it's a code smell. It points to if you had a team that was continually delivering value to your customers, to your users, and that you had a team where when sales, or marketing, or someone learned something about what will be valuable to customers and it's validated that it's valuable, and it gets put into the design and development process, and it comes out relatively soon, there's no need for a product roadmap.
\n\nOr I should say people don't feel the need for a product roadmap as much because they have high confidence that user needs are going to be met in a tight feedback cycle and that there's not a loss of momentum. And things going into the system are coming out in a week, two weeks, three weeks. Even four weeks, you can maintain that sense of momentum of we understood that this was important. We validated that it was. It went into the system, and it came out the other side, and it's in the hands of users. It's only when that starts to break down that stakeholders start to say, "We need to plan. We need a roadmap," because they lack the confidence that putting things into the system they're going to see them come out the other side in a way that maintains momentum.
\n\nLINDSEY: Does that depend on the size of the company?
\n\nCHAD: Well, ideally, even companies of large size are able to do that, but we all know that that's difficult. It may be that most companies just can't do that. And when that's the case, you have that breakdown. You have that lack of confidence. You have a system where you aren't putting things in and quickly seeing them come out the other side. And so that's where something like a product roadmap you start to say we need that in place. And I think that that's why it often happens as teams get bigger and as companies get more complex.
\n\nLINDSEY: Interesting. So product roadmaps are not dead, but roadmap can be a smell.
\n\nCHAD: Yes. [chuckles] Yeah, that's what I would say. That's my opinion.
\n\nLINDSEY: Who owns that smell?
\n\nCHAD: So now to get back to who owns the product roadmap, if your customers aren't the ones driving what's on the roadmap, then something is fundamentally broken. At the end of the day, the real owners of the product roadmap, even though they probably shouldn't see it, are the users, the customers. But I don't think that's the question you were asking. Who decides what's on the roadmap? It's got to be the people who are closest to hearing customers and who have the vision for what the product is supposed to be. So that will often be the company leadership, the CEO, the chief product officer, something like that combined with people who are talking with customers.
\n\nLINDSEY: So on the opposite end of the spectrum, if it's a big company, maybe it's a little bit harder to operate without the roadmap. If you're a really small and young company, let's say, and you already have a roadmap, is that too much?
\n\nCHAD: Well, this is a podcast, so we can have opinions. I would say [laughs] growth opinion, high-level position, yeah, you should probably not have that roadmap. Now the devil is in the details. What is the roadmap? Is it high-level themes? Is it I'm building this idea, and I'm a visionary about what this product is going to be, and I've laid out in broad strokes...we've done an initial version, a minimum viable product, and we have a vision for where we're going over the next year or two? There's a way to do that which doesn't then convert into this rigid product roadmap. And I think that that's what people who say product roadmaps are dead and you shouldn't be doing them; that’s what they're pushing against is that really rigid expectation setting system where promises get made and then broken.
\n\nLINDSEY: Right and promising especially deadlines far out into the future.
\n\nCHAD: And they also understand or believe that if you have a product roadmap, it potentially puts you in a position where you stop listening to customers because you say, "In six months, this is the thing that we're going to be working on." And then you get there, and you just work on it, and you deliver it without having learned along the way that the next most important thing might be something completely different. And so that's another risk with product roadmaps is you start working to the roadmap instead of working to what your users are telling you. So at that company, I'm not surprised to hear that it was a 5-year, 10-year thing, and then it's based off of a thing, Was it really concrete, or was it more sort of vision stuff?
\n\nLINDSEY: It was very concrete, I would say.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. [laughs]
\n\nLINDSEY: And it's interesting because a lot of it was around trying to be first to market with cutting edge technologies. And on the hardware side, there was also R&D and multiple scientific teams working on specific things. And actually, to get more concrete, I think I can share without giving specifics. So it was 3D printing, and there's like an arms race in 3D printing to be able to print with new materials. So there are multiple teams working on trying to figure out how to print with new materials. And then we had these really long-term product roadmaps that were like by this year; we’re going to have gone to market with it and using that as a way to stay ahead of the competition basically.
\n\nCHAD: I can imagine that from a business perspective, you're looking at that situation, and you say...and this is true both in science and in software. But from a business perspective, it's saying, "If we don't have this deadline in place, then we have a research project that's just going to go on. We need this timeline, this deadline to hold everyone accountable to what a goal is and to make sure that we're bringing new products to market in that timeframe." And then the scientists are probably saying, "We have no idea. It's completely arbitrary. We think that we could do this, but what happens when we don't? What happens when we don't have something?"
\n\nA lot of times, I make an analogy between science and even software development and art because it is a creative process. It's all in our heads, and we're just coming up with it. You can say, "I need to have the book," or "I need to have this painting finished by this time." But it's very difficult to then ensure that that is actually going to happen at the creative level of saying, "I'm proud of this work, or it's good." It's hard to do that.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, and I think there was an element too of either we will figure it out, or we will acquire whoever figures it out. And then there's a separate team that's off trying to suss out who's figuring it out and what are they willing to be bought for? [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Right. And maybe from a business perspective, a lot of that makes sense. And you have to balance all of those things in order to try to be successful from a business perspective.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. It's interesting on the hardware side, too, especially as you do get closer to actually launching. It can be very waterfall-esque working towards launch because there are so many dependencies in order to get the thing built and shipped and launched on time.
\n\nCHAD: I found a Quora thread about companies that have made their roadmap public.
\n\nLINDSEY: Did any do it successfully?
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nLINDSEY: I've only seen nightmare stories. Like, let this be a lesson. Here's a company that made their roadmap public, and within weeks they were disappointing people. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: I think that it's tempting, you know, and I think we should just do it. Part of the benefit of not having a roadmap that people say is that it allows not only the flexibility for what you're going to do to change based on what you learn. But the other is it offers you the opportunity to surprise and delight customers. And it allows you not to say, "This thing is six months away," but to say, "Here it is now." And one of the best examples of that that I think we're all familiar with is Apple. Apple doesn't typically pre-announce products that far in advance. And they're even a hardware company. They're clearly working on things years in the making. But they don't talk about them publicly until it's like, you can order this today, or you can order this on Wednesday. And the excitement and momentum that Apple builds around that is like the Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Willy Wonka kind of secretive thing. It's super exciting to customers, and they're super successful doing it.
\n\nAnd last year, we had a really public thing where...actually, it was I guess two years ago that the saga started when Apple unusually announced AirPower, which is a charging mat that could charge both of your phone and your watch and everything all at the same time. They announced that far in advance. And then it actually ended up never shipping, and they eventually canceled the product. And they had to do all of that publicly, which is very, very different from Apple. I imagine that there are tons of products that Apple thinks that they're going to eventually release, and they don't work out, and they have to kill the projects. And all of that happens behind closed doors.
\n\nLINDSEY: So we don't know of anyone who does it successfully. What does Quora say?
\n\nCHAD: Quora doesn't know. A lot of the companies are not even in business anymore. [laughter]
\n\nLINDSEY: There you go.
\n\nCHAD: Buffer has apparently...Buffer has a transparent product roadmap. And I guess if there's any company that does transparency pretty well that I could point to, it would be Buffer. So we can link to that in the show notes. How does this board work? We've made this to give you a clear view into what we're working on, what we're about to work on, and what we're thinking about working on. We hope you enjoy the peek behind the scenes. They have four lanes: potential, next up, in progress, and done. They have voting enabled on their Trello board so their customers can vote on the different things that they have going on.
\n\nLINDSEY: Are you in the actual board?
\n\nCHAD: I am on the actual board, yeah.
\n\nLINDSEY: How many votes? What kind of numbers are we talking?
\n\nCHAD: So the in-progress thing that they are currently working on is a better way to manage campaigns in Buffer, and it has four votes.
\n\nLINDSEY: Oh.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] So it doesn't seem like there's tons of engagement. There's another one, the best time to post to maximize your reach. It has seven votes.
\n\nLINDSEY: Okay, so a pretty low number.
\n\nCHAD: Pretty low. Oh, here's one, flexible pricing for Buffer has 67 votes. So I think you can get a little sense of the engagement that's on there. But I like that there's no description on these cards. It's just a better way to manage campaigns in Buffer. So they're not saying what they're going to be doing. There are no timelines on any of these cards. It was only moved to in progress. And they're not saying anything on these cards from what I can see about when it's going to be done or what is actually going to be entailed in it. I encourage people to look at this. It's pretty good in terms of potentially ways to make a public roadmap work for you and your customers.
\n\nLINDSEY: And what about thoughtbot? We also heavily gravitate towards the Trello management.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. This is clearly not their actual Trello board. It's a specific board created for a transparent roadmap.
\n\nLINDSEY: It’s a distraction.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] Yeah. If we were going to do something like this…
\n\nLINDSEY: I guess I meant as far as tools; what are the things that you have seen work with…? My guess would be Trello because we use that a lot for managing projects.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, we use it for managing pretty much every project. And longtime followers of thoughtbot will know that we used to use a tool called Pivotal Tracker. And then, we created our own tool called Trajectory, which doesn't exist anymore. But the big thing about that was it was really meant to address the flow between coming up with ideas and the design thinking that goes into evolving a product idea and then breaking it down into stories and doing the stories from there.
\n\nAnd we switched to Trello in part because of the flexibility of Trello. Trello is not specific to any one product or any one workflow. And so, the nature of software development is again a reason why product roadmaps can be troublesome because things change constantly. You're constantly learning. You should be meeting on a regular feedback cycle of not only how is our product working for people and what should we do differently, but how is our process of developing that product working, and what should we be doing differently? That's one of the great things about Trello is that because it's so flexible, you can say, "Yeah, we're having this problem with our process. Let's change it." And you can usually find a way to embrace that flexibility in Trello.
\n\nLINDSEY: And how do you know that your product roadmap is on the right track? Or what are some smells that you're going in the wrong direction? We talk about customers being happy. What does that actually mean, and what does that look like?
\n\nCHAD: If the things that are going into what you're doing on your product are coming from users, and then they're going back to them, and they're receiving usage, that's a really good sign. And a lot of teams look at and measure cycle time, so the total time for something that goes into the process to come out the other side and get in the hands of users. And a lot of teams really high functioning teams will be working to make that as short as possible. And one of the reasons why is because that gives a sense to your customers that your product is continually moving forward in a way that comes from their needs. And that's a really good place to be in. You know what I mean?
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, that makes sense.
\n\nCHAD: Do you use any products where you feel like they've got that flow working really well?
\n\nLINDSEY: As far as asking for feedback and then incorporating it into the product?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, or even just that you use the product and you're maybe not even giving them feedback directly, but you have a vague sense of how your need might not be met. And they're releasing features and that kind of thing on a semi-regular basis where you say, "I didn't even realize I needed that, but now that I have it, it makes me happy." Or "Boy, that really solved this problem that I was facing."
\n\nLINDSEY: I think the one that comes to mind immediately is Slack, actually. I feel like their product releases often speak to something I was feeling. Like, I think especially they seem attuned to the fact that it can create a lot of noise. And so providing or increasing the different ways that you can personalize your own experience so that you can mute things or have certain kinds of notifications or be able to set hours that you're away and unavailable. Those releases, I think, feel especially personal when I see those come through.
\n\nCHAD: I think you're right. Slack is one where that would be the case. And it's worth noting that Slack does publish a roadmap, and they've been doing it for a couple of years. Particularly, it seems like, from the outside, a big part of what drove that and what's in their marketing around it is better setting expectations with their enterprise customers and that sort of thing rather than necessarily not meeting the needs of actual users.
\n\nLINDSEY: They also seem especially responsive and helpful out in the world too. I've seen multiple instances of folks I know tweeting about a bug or something in Slack, and very quickly, the Slack account is responding with how to fix it or notifying that it's been logged in, and they'll be following up, that kind of thing.
\n\nCHAD: So I'm looking at the Slack one a little bit more, and it seems like the roadmap is centered primarily around what they call the platform roadmap. So it's more like APIs and system-level things that they're going to be focusing on or adding rather than user-facing features. So it's more serving the needs of people who are building on top of the Slack platform versus saying that their product is going to have a specific feature at this time that's user-facing.
\n\nLINDSEY: That's interesting.
\n\nCHAD: Which makes sense because people building on top of the Slack platform who are really dependent for their business needs on the Slack platform are going to have high expectations for knowing what's coming and knowing that their needs are being addressed at some point in the future.
\n\nLINDSEY: Right. And on the enterprise side, as they're getting more enterprise customers, I imagine that could come into play as well where enterprise companies are going to have some dependencies or requirements that maybe the Slack team hasn't had to deal with before, which could be integrations. It could be certain kinds of security measures, which if they're definitely working on those or creating the necessary partnerships, it can also make sense to say, "We have in our sites this integration or the security measure coming by the end of the year," kind of thing.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. So one that I have...and it's interesting because I think they've been doing a good job lately, but they went through a real period of time where I felt like they weren't doing as good a job with it, and it’s GitHub. So GitHub lately has done a much better job of, for me as a developer, as a user of GitHub every day, delivering features where it's like, yeah, this is awesome, and it fills a need or a pain that I was really having. Or I didn't even realize that I was going to need this feature, and now that it's here, I can't imagine it being any different.
\n\nAnd they do that, as far as I know, there's not a public roadmap for GitHub. And GitHub, I could be completely wrong on this; they do a conference. They do shows. And what they're doing at that is they're announcing things. So they're more on the sliding scale towards Apple, where they're announcing general availability or beta availability of new features at their events as opposed to saying, "Here's what the roadmap for the next year looks like."
\n\nLINDSEY: Which does create a forcing function of having things ready enough, maybe not launchable but ready enough that you can at least talk about it and talk about the timeline.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. And we had the product manager of the payments that GitHub announced on a previous episode. Her name's Devon. And that's one of the things she talked about was working towards that deadline of that presentation and how stressful it was and making sure that they manage scope within that.
\n\nLINDSEY: So, do you think GitHub has been doing a better job since they were acquired?
\n\nCHAD: It doesn't so much match since when they've been acquired, but there was a period of time where...and maybe it could be that there's nothing GitHub-specific about this, but there's probably a period in every product's time where you go from this is a new thing, and so there are so many new features that are low hanging fruit. And you can quickly roll them out, bang, bang, bang for a long period of time. Your roadmap is just sitting there in front of you, waiting for you to do it. You don't need to worry too much about it. That's, depending on the product, probably six months, a year, two years, maybe even five years. But then you're going to work your way through that list and the things that you do next, particularly if you reach a growth stage, which means that your core customers may be different than your original core customers…where you can enter a lull. And you need to take some time to figure out what the next phase of your product looks like. It's possible that it happened with GitHub.
\n\nI tend to think that it's more that internally GitHub had real challenges. And we know it had some issues with sexual harassment and workplace issues like that. I think that really got in the way of GitHub functioning well. That's my theory. But again, I'm totally on the outside. But I do know that they went through some significant restructuring and addressing a lot of those issues and creating what is hopefully a more inclusive workplace where people can do their best work. And then good work started to come out again.
\n\nLINDSEY: As far as launching products or new features, it's always interesting and challenging I think with SaaS products where you're continuously releasing improvements and how you think about…again, from the marketing fun of it too a little bit, is like how you think about when is something like a new launch? When is something a significant enough new feature? Is this actually a separate product from what we've been offering? And sometimes, that can be really obvious. Going back to the reporting example, that's a nice kind of shiny new toy in your platform that you're going to have, like a dashboard. The difficult ones are performance improvements. But I was curious if you have any takes on that too.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. What I've always done on the products that I've worked on...and thoughtbot has created several products that have been fairly successful not only for our clients but for ourselves as well. I've always favored not underestimating people's ability to absorb significant product changes as long as they're coming from a place of you know that they are needed. And that if you're shipping regular new things on a basis, not all of your customers know about that right away, and so you can take a marketing touchpoint for those changes. And even though you have a sense of urgency about communicating them right away, you do have some time to do that.
\n\nI think I said earlier when I was starting out, "Underestimate people." What I think I meant was overestimate. We, as people who are very close to the product, assume that the minute we deploy a new feature or a change that everyone in the world is going to know about it. And that's just not the reality of what it's going to be. So when rolling out new features, you have to communicate them to the people who are touching them and are who are hitting them.
\n\nBut there are almost multiple layers of marketing and communication for any new feature that's going out, communicating with immediate customers that are touching a new feature, and then making sure that everything that's going out is flowing through marketing and is coordinated with marketing around what those touchpoints are going to be. And the general guideline that I've always used is at least once a month; there should be a major round-up or communication about a significant change that has been made. And I've always felt really good about the products that I was working on if we were in that cycle like we're continually delivering new things. But then, on a monthly basis, there's at least one new either individually significant thing that we can talk about. Or absent of that, doing a roundup of a theme of changes or just here are three major improvements we've made in the last month.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, I totally agree. It's great to have those opportunities to engage with customers and keep them invested in the product, and looking forward to those regular updates as well.
\n\nCHAD: Right. So when we think back to Trello boards or roadmaps and that kind of thing, I don't think marketing should be…after that fact, marketing shouldn't be saying like, "What was just released? Can we know?" and then responding to it. Marketing should have insight into what's in the backlog, what's the next things that are going into production. What are the things we're planning now? And they should be contributing to that process because, in a lot of companies, marketing is going to be on the front lines of interacting with customers. So you're going to hear things, and you're going to see things and that should contribute to the process.
\n\nLINDSEY: Right. Ideally, the marketing team is also customer-facing and providing those insights as well and tapped into what folks are having challenges with or looking forward to as well as what else they have their eye on that others are offering or trying out that are your competition.
\n\nCHAD: So that's the cadence that when I'm in charge of a product, I've tried to achieve. It's easier to do in the early days of a product when, like I was saying, you don't even need the roadmap. There's so much low-hanging fruit, and everything is valuable, and the priorities are relatively clear. It's harder to maintain that pace far into your product's future not only because what you're doing is less clear and maybe less valuable to all of your customers but also that daily, weekly, monthly pace can be difficult to keep up indefinitely just from a sustainability standpoint.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. I feel like sometimes I even see products incorporating content in those later stages as ways to keep folks engaged and updated and have that be a feature of the product, whether it's community-based or the company itself actually producing new content and incorporating that into the product.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. So a really good example of that is (Boy, we've had a lot of good people on the podcast.) the folks at Wistia, which is a local company to Boston. And they're continually evolving what their product is offering. And they're launching new features. They're doing new things. But a big part of what you see publicly from them is also new content that helps people be better creators. So they are a good example that comes to mind of a company that does that pretty well.
\n\nLINDSEY: So, we're going to be talking to three other startups of different stages in different industries about how they approach their product roadmap. Any sense for what might be consistent versus what is different? I imagine you also have insight from seeing a ton of client projects. Are certain areas of product roadmap more consistent than others?
\n\nCHAD: I suspect what we're going to hear from the early-stage companies is that they actually have what...They're probably either going to say, "We have no idea. We're just flying by the seat of our pants." But actually, I think it wouldn't be surprising to me if there's just so much low-hanging fruit in front of us that that gives them a sense of a clear product roadmap. And they say, "Yeah, we do know. We do have a sense of what we're going to be doing next week and the week after." But they're going to not be so worried about what six months from now looks like.
\n\nAnd I think a common trend of later-stage companies is I wouldn't be surprised to hear that they're very focused on partnerships and external relationships in a way that early companies aren't. And that is one of the factors which we haven't really touched on is, anytime you start involving external people the same way with Slack; it’s like people who are depending on you for their own business needs outside of your users creates more pressure for you to set expectations with them and to introduce roadmaps. So companies that are really focused on that who have channels and partnerships and that kind of thing are going to have more desire or pressure to introduce some form of roadmap.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. And in a way, that's the later stage companies' low-hanging fruit. When you bring in a partner, or you make an acquisition and immediately fill in a need that you've identified or an opportunity that you've identified, instead of taking your existing team to build it, or hire a team, or work with someone like thoughtbot.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. And it could be that that is actually totally the right thing. Because if you give everybody the benefit of the doubt and you say, "This product has been well-managed and user-centric to meet the needs of the users, then you're going to get that cycle." In the early days, we know what we should be doing, and our users are telling us. And we've got a lot of things to introduce into the product to fully meet the needs of those customers. And you're going to do that, and it's going to serve you for a really long time for delivering new things to them.
\n\nBut at some point, again, giving the benefit of the doubt, assuming you've done that and things have gone well, there is a point at which you say, "We've delivered all of that. And we have a product which is meeting the needs of our users. It's fulfilling the job to be done of those users." You say, "Okay, great." So we're either bringing new people in who might have different needs and different jobs to be done. Or we are exploring other business opportunities like bringing on partners and opening up new channels which have their own needs that are driving your product roadmap, or they're bringing in customers who have a different job to be done.
\n\nLINDSEY: And honestly, it's an easy way for early-stage companies too to add a partner and gain access to their audience. But it's not likely that they're going to want to partner with you [laughs] because you're not bringing anything to the table, so you got to do that building first.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. So we'll see what they say. I'm looking forward to the conversations. So, Linsdey, you have some personal news.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yes. With mixed emotions, I'll be moving on from thoughtbot and the podcast.
\n\nCHAD: This comes as a complete surprise to me. You're just springing this to me on the podcast.
\n\nLINDSEY: I know. I know I told you I wanted you to join five minutes earlier. And it's inappropriate.
\n\nCHAD: [chuckles]
\n\nLINDSEY: No, that's not true. I used all the proper channels. I read the handbook. But yeah, end of an era, moving on. But dang, it's been a lot of fun, hasn't it?
\n\nCHAD: It has been fun. It's been great working with you. The impact that you've had on thoughtbot will be long-lasting. It was significant and long-lasting. I think that you joined at a really interesting time. Pandemic and all that stuff aside, completely separate from that, we were going through important transitions, and I think you're an important part of this. I remember commenting to you not long after you joined when you gave the first company-wide presentation that you were the first person I think who had ever done a full company-wide presentation like that, besides me.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. Wow. This feels like so long ago.
\n\nCHAD: And you're just so fun to work with and collaborate with and just be a team member with that you're definitely going to be missed. So thank you for everything.
\n\nLINDSEY: Thank you. I am definitely not tearing up. So no one has to worry about that. It's hard to look back without getting choked up. It's been a really great experience. [laughter]
\n\nCHAD: I'm glad to hear that. You brought so much to the table. We learned a lot along the way, and it wasn't always easy. We had a marketing team working in a certain way, which went through a big change. I think we learned a lot about how the next phase of thoughtbot needs to work, and I think you're an important part of getting there. So thanks again.
\n\nLINDSEY: Thanks for having me. Thanks to all of you for listening. And I'm now available as a guest, which is the great news.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nLINDSEY: And I almost know how to set up all my recording settings, so that's half the battle. But it's been real, and thank you for the opportunity from the experience.
\n\nCHAD: So we will be back in a little while with new episodes of the show. You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm.
\n\nIf you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel.
\n\nThis podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. And for all you listeners out there, I'll talk to you next time. Bye.
\n\nAnnouncer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
","summary":"Lindsey and Chad talk about product roadmaps. Are they dead? Lindsey and Chad think they just smell. \r\n\r\nWe also say an emotional goodbye to Lindsey as she moves on to new adventures. We miss you!","date_published":"2021-10-07T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/1c1025e2-aa1e-4615-a158-2c56bec7733b.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":60048926,"duration_in_seconds":2738}]},{"id":"beeb4ad4-b132-4667-b7d2-469115a330a6","title":"395: Energy, Perspective, Priorities, and Intention with Jen Dary of Plucky","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/395","content_text":"Chad talks to Leadership Coach and Founder of Plucky, Jen Dary, about working with individuals and companies to create healthy dynamics at work.\n\nIn fact, Plucky just released a new product that aids in doing just that! Manager Weeklies are notebooks designed to help leaders intentionally set up their weeks and track progress. It includes tips and tricks, including useful 1:1 tools. Each notebook is designed to last one quarter.\n\n\nFollow Jen Dary on Twitter or LinkedIn\nPlucky\nManager Weeklies info & order link\nNewsletter: beplucky.com/newsletter\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Jen Dary, founder of Plucky. Jen, welcome back to the podcast. \n\nJEN: Thank you. My third time. Three time's a charm. I feel very lucky. \n\nCHAD: There aren't many people who have been on the podcast as guests three or more times. So you're in an ever-increasing select group of returning guests. \n\nJEN: Thank you. I feel like it's maybe because the Tokyo Olympics have just started, but I feel competitive and ready to take on this third session. \n\nCHAD: [laughs] So the last time you were on was October 28th, 2019 is when the episode came out.\n\nJEN: Millennia ago.\n\nCHAD: Not quite two years ago, but yeah, also a millennia ago. And that was Episode 342 so if people want to go back and take a listen to that. And then before that, you were on Episode 270, which I actually don't even know the date of. It was even longer. So welcome back. You are celebrating the eighth anniversary of Plucky. \n\nJEN: I know. I don't really think of it in these ways because I don't have an MBA, or I didn't come from a business background or anything. But definitely when I hit five years, I feel like my husband said something about that. He was like, \"Honey, you should be really proud. Not a lot of businesses make it five years.\" And that was not really on my mind. \n\nBut now that Plucky is eight, I feel like oh man, I'm just so happy to talk about how businesses evolve and how what you thought it was going to be in year one was different than year three, was different than year five, and of course, it's different than year eight. So we're eight years in, but nothing's the same, and everything's the same. I'm sure you've experienced that too. \n\nCHAD: It was actually the eighth year going into the ninth year mark that we at thoughtbot started to make big changes. And it was that idea of coming up on a decade. It started to feel like, wow, there's real momentum here. And instead of thinking about what the next year looks like, what does the next decade look like? And are we the kind of company that is going to last 20 years? And that put us in a different mindset. And I started to think about the impact we were having and the legacy that we would have. And was it big enough for the size of the company that we had?\n\nJEN: How old is thoughtbot right now? \n\nCHAD: We just celebrated our 18th anniversary. \n\nJEN: Oh my gosh. All right. Well, maybe at the very end, you can give me your best wisdom for the ninth year. [laughter]\n\nCHAD: Oh jeez. Okay. [chuckles]\n\nJEN: No presh, but tuck that in the back of your brain. \n\nCHAD: Yeah, get some sleep. That's my best advice. \n\nJEN: [laughs] Great. \n\nCHAD: That would be great. We can come back to that. \n\nJEN: Cool. \n\nCHAD: So obviously, it's been a big two years since we last talked. I'm sure a lot has progressed in Plucky. How have things changed? \n\nJEN: Well, what's funny is that the two years spread that we're talking about or 18 months or whatever it is, for the most part, overlaps with COVID so far. So by the end of 2019, things were cooking, and everything is good. And even, personally speaking, my youngest son would be entering kindergarten in the fall of 2020. Again, as a business owner, a mom, all those things I was sort of at the end of 2019 hot, so good. \n\nAnd then I was anticipating 2020 to be continued pretty much the same as is. Like, we would keep training managers. I would keep traveling. All that would get easier because the kids are getting bigger, then my kid would go to kindergarten. And I was also finishing a book about...I can't remember if we talked about this before, but I was really sick in 2016. I had a brain tumor diagnosis, and I'm okay now. It was benign. I had this memoir that was eh, I don't know, maybe two-thirds done. All that was the plan for 2020, Chad. And I'm sure this is shocking news to you, but none of it happened, including freaking kindergarten, obviously in person. \n\nSo on the business side of things, I kept everything stable as best as I could. So coaching kept going because coaching has always been remote. We have some products, and we kept shipping those out as best we could. At the very beginning of COVID, when everybody thought it was this three, four-week hiatus from real life, I recorded a story every day. Because I was like, what can I do for all the world that's working? So I recorded a storytime for Plucky with my kids. And I put it out on social media so that working parents could have another 15 minutes of distraction for their kids. That's how cute I was back then. [laughter] After one month of that, I was like, I need somebody to read stories to my kids. Yikes.\n\nCHAD: Yeah. [laughs]\n\nJEN: So the big thing that changed was that our manager trainings in person obviously I had to cancel those. So I transitioned from in-person to virtual events, and that has continued. And as of this recording, end of July, I was thinking that our November event this year…it's the 20th cohort of So Now You're a Manager. I was going to have it in person. And just last week, I pulled the plug on that. And I was like, no, we're going to stay virtual a little bit longer because I don't know how to predict what the hell is coming. So again, that sort of stabilizing, right? Like, okay, well, now I know how to do the virtual. That will be the stable choice this year, which is weird to say, but true. \n\nCHAD: Yeah. So you just gave a great organic listing of the things that Plucky does, and a big part of that was that in-person So Now You're a Manager training, which, if people remember from the previous episodes, new managers at thoughtbot have attended over the years. It's a really great training for people who become managers. So what was transitioning that to remote like? Because you'd only ever done it in person before, right? \n\nJEN: Yeah, totally. The first 11 cohorts were in person, and then we got to 12, and that was supposed to happen in March in Atlanta. We canceled that, and it wasn't until June that we had the 12th, and that was the first virtual one. And to say that I needed to go through stages of grief is probably pretty accurate. [chuckles] \n\nMy energy in person is so a thing, like a tool of mine and just pulling people together, and making safe space for conversations and all that jazz. So I was like, what the hell is that going to be like on Zoom? And meanwhile, remember I'm watching my first grader go through the shenanigans of Zoom for the end of that year. And I'm like, oh my God, how am I possibly going to get grown-ups on this and paying attention and not being distracted? \n\nSo a couple of things, I will say number one is I definitely interviewed four or five people in the industry who are good at virtual events, and I tried to get their deepest wisdom about it. The second thing is that I made the cohorts smaller. So in person, we have around 20 to 22 max, and in virtual, we do 10 to 12 max. And so that got a lot smaller. Also, instead of being two days back to back, I broke it into three half days which is just a different ask. And I wasn't sure if people would bite at that. \n\nI tried to mimic it after how some people do an MBA on the side. So then they go to work, and they practice the stuff they're learning at the MBA. And so that has been my thought like, okay, you'll be with me basically for a month. We'll have three half days together, usually on a Friday. And then you're practicing in the meantime. So between the times I see you, you're improving your listening skills. You're coming back with anecdotes about hires or tough conversations or whatever. So I won't say that's like a silver lining, but it's just a different beast. And the first day I did it, I mean, I'm telling you, I was on the bathroom floor on my knees like, don't let the internet go out. \n\nCHAD: [laughs]\n\nJEN: I was so scared. I don't know why looking back. I'm in tech, but I'm not technical. It's my husband who helps me set up a monitor and whatnot. Oh God, I was so nervous. And I just thought, shit, this is the thing I can't problem-solve. If the internet goes out, I don't know what to do, but if someone's upset, I can help them. So it just brought all of my skills in a different environment. And now I feel pretty good about it. \n\nI don't know if you found this with your distributed company overall, but I have worked very hard to make sure that it's a blend, of course, this digital experience, but also I use the mail. I use snail mail a lot. So attendees get a packet before we begin. They get a gift at the end, a graduation gift. And yeah, I feel like I've learned a lot about how to have a hand-in-hand experience of digital as well as a physical object that they can touch to make that experience more than just a screen.\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I think that's important. How did changing the format, reducing the class size, what business ramifications were there for that? \n\nJEN: Well, it's way less money. [chuckles]\n\nCHAD: Right. Okay, sorry.\n\nJEN: No. Oh my God. I want to be very real about these things, especially for people starting their businesses. It's way less money. And also if you think about it, everybody had already bought tickets to Atlanta, and then they had already started buying tickets to...I can't remember what the next one was going to be, New York, I think. So for a lot of the year, everything was, I'll say, comped, but that's not really what's going on. All of a sudden, the amount of seats that I thought I was selling for the year got reduced in about half, and much of that were already pre-bought tickets. So, as a line item, that was way lower. \n\nI also think I got...man, I haven't really said this transparently to anybody before, but I'll say it here. I got really scared about what to charge. Do you charge the same thing virtually than you do in person? And so I lowered it, I would say for a year. I lowered it by a couple of hundred dollars for each ticket because I didn't know what the market wanted. And also, I didn't know, oh God, were businesses closing? Were people getting prof dev budgets? Everybody was frozen for a good while. So I'm lucky that now today I'm back up to the same price that it had been before, but it's not as much income per event. \n\nAnd the other thing I'll say which affects money…but again, I want to be transparent for other folks who think about or currently run businesses. One great thing to come out of some of the social unrest of last year is that we now have an equity scholarship for So Now You're a Manager. So in every cohort, be that virtually or in person, I always reserve a seat for someone who's coming from an underrepresented group, so people apply. And that is something that I very happily said I will eat the cost of that ticket because it's important to me to have different voices in the room. And that has been a total awesome thing this year. That just started in January of 2021, but that's something really great that came out of last year.\n\nCHAD: Yeah. What did you find that customers wanted, and did it change over time? Was there an appetite for it to be remote, or was there resistance to it? \n\nJEN: I think at first people were overwhelmed and didn't want it. That's why I held it from March until June until I thought people were ready. I can tell you categorically that I've had the lowest percentage of parents attend of all time because, let's be real, who wants another kind of obligation? Or also, parents during this time, especially with young children, were not in that growth space necessarily for work because there was so much to keep afloat. So other than the three half days, I also have this optional hour that I throw in just if people can come; there’s this extra exercise that didn't fit in from the original curriculum. And I don't think I've had one parent, maybe one, come across all those cohorts that have been virtual to that. So the optional stuff I see parents opting out of. \n\nThat said, I saw more folks who maybe either live alone or maybe have a roommate but who are pre-family or some people won't have families but someone who was socially like, \"It was so hard and tiring last year.\" And that sort of swung back around towards the summer and end of summer. I saw much more interest there because I think people were really lonely.\n\nCHAD: Yeah. And I also think, at least for me personally and for thoughtbot, that was when the thinking definitely shifted that this wasn't going to be going away anytime soon. And so we came to terms with that and started to then make much more long-term plans and permanent changes.\n\nJEN: I think it was also in the...I want to say like early fall when Twitter announced they'd be remote. Like, they have an office, but they wouldn't oblige anyone to ever come back again. And whenever that decision was made, there were a couple of other companies...At that point, I was still living in the Bay Area, and there were a couple of other companies that made similar suggestions. And so again, to your point, there was a revisioning of what the next phase was like or at least what to expect. And so, I think people weren't holding out to go back to normal. It was like, what's the new normal?\n\nCHAD: Yeah. So when we first shut down offices and went remote, we were giving updates every two weeks, and then it changed to every month. And then it would be like, \"There's really no change. We're going to give another update in April.\" And then April was, \"We'll give another update in May.\" And when it came to June, we just said, \"We're planning on being in this mode for at least the end of the year. Let's start all acting and make this sustainable.\" So that is when our thinking changed too. \n\nJEN: Did you feel like with your CEOness and business responsibility over there...what kept you grounded for all that thing? Because obviously every time you make that announcement or regardless of whether that's in person or just...I don't even know– retention or whatever it is. It feels like you're just building strategy on freaking quicksand.\n\nCHAD: It wasn't easy. You feel responsible for everybody's well-being, both financially and everything else. And so the lack of stability…you want to provide it in an unstable world. You want to say, \"Well, at least you shouldn't have to worry about this. Let’s provide…\" but it was impossible to do. And I'm much more comfortable with uncertainty. I think there's a spectrum of comfortableness with uncertainty, and I'm pretty far on one end of it, and even I was struggling. Same thing with like I'm very much on the spectrum of not having to worry about anxiety or anything like that, and even I was feeling it. And so I was just like...at one point I said to I think it was Diana or whatever \"If I'm feeling this, if I'm getting chest palpitations, [laughs] something's really wrong, and we really need to pay attention to how everybody else is feeling.\"\n\nJEN: Oh, yeah. I even saw that anxiety obviously with coaching clients. There are some clients that when budgets dried up, there was like an initial drop-off, I would say March, April. But then I feel very lucky that the pipeline was still very strong, and I had clients stay with me or join or whatever. \n\nYou remember as well as anybody not only did we have this health crisis going on, which again we still do but my last class...So third of three of the cohort in May last year was a couple of days after George Floyd's murder. And the responsibility I felt too...like, when all these things were going on last summer, it was like, who freaking cares about anything? It's like these huge things. And you start to say nothing matters. There are only three things that matter in life. And then you kept sort of recycling the drain on that. \n\nSo here I am going into teaching the third of three classes. And during the third class, I always teach concepts on how to hire, concepts on how to lay someone off and fire someone, which everyone's always very barfy and nervous about. And I try to bring us together and graduate us in what feels like a victorious moment. But that's three days after George Floyd's murder, and everyone is reeling and needing to process. And I remember thinking that morning, I don't know how this is going to go because I was fully willing to rip up the plan and do something different. But at the same time, there's also sometimes they want some structure. Folks want to just show up and take this class and be distracted from what's going on in the world. \n\nSo we sort of talked about this a few minutes before we started recording but really, what has been fascinating and challenging about continuing to train managers over the last two years is that these very large things are going on in the background: George Floyd's murder, a lot of social unrest in Minneapolis, the election, COVID, all these things. And you can't just put that away and show up to manager training. It is freaking relevant because it is relevant for them. Of course, it's very meta, but all of my students are then going to go back and be responsible for 3, 5, 7 other people in their day-to-day work. So it was really wild, but again, stretching and a challenge that I met with a lot of intention. I don't know if I was always super successful at it, but I thought a lot about it. \n\nCHAD: Yeah, I think that was the shift that we saw on our team. And what I've heard from people is that enough is enough in several different categories of things. And like, we just can't keep on doing what we were doing before. It's not working, and it is unacceptable. People are angry too. So it's not just processing. It's anger and wanting to see action, wanting to take action. And yet, doing it in a world where we can't actually be together, I think, made it particularly challenging for some people and for managers to know how to meet their team members where they were. And people process things in different ways too, and people need different things.\n\nAnd at that point, we had hired people who had only ever been remote. So I think the connections that you have with people that you might've worked with in person you can lean on a lot in the beginning. But then you're working with someone or managing someone who you've never met in person.\n\nJEN: Yeah. It's a whole new ball game. And I think that the notion of community has gone through the wringer, not only in the worst, it's a rebirth almost. I think the notion of locally what's going on for you and then who can you see? Who can you have a barbecue with? All of those questions of like, who can I be with? Of course, the internet's great, but the internet has some major, major boundaries to it. And people see that at work, and they see that in training. \n\nCHAD: One of the things we're struggling with in that category now is there are people who live next to each other because we were historically in offices. And as it becomes more possible to get together with each other, and this is something that, as managers, we're trying to navigate, it actually has a huge potential for exclusion now that we have hired a bunch of people who are anywhere. \n\nIf the teams that were in-person together but are now working remotely start getting in person again, even if it's just an outing at a park, who's not able to attend that, and how will they feel? And what expectations have we set with them? And then you have just sort of equity and inclusion issues around people we've hired in Brazil since we've gone remote. There's no way for them to come. \n\nJEN: Sure.\n\nCHAD: It's not fair. And navigating that as a team, I think we've been able to do that, but it hasn't been easy. \n\nJEN: I think sometimes the only way to see it is none of it will work. So if none of it will work, then cool. The bar's low. [laughter] Yeah, it's not going to be perfect. And all in person had its issues too. So then, if you just sort of bottom it out and say, cool, cool, cool, there's no one silver bullet answer here. So what that means is yes, as human beings, folks who are possibly able to meet up for coffee will resonate and glow and be psyched to be around some other people. So, how do we say \"No,\" less often to that? Because that's great. That's really something to celebrate. And I'm sure if everybody was in that situation, they would try to take advantage of that too. But then to say, if you're not in that situation, here's another option. \n\nAnd then, every once in a while, we'll mix those options together and have like a rolling menu with it so that nothing gets too static and paralyzed and presumed. And it's in that flow state, which of course, is more fatiguing because you have decision fatigue, and you got to keep making decisions about it. But if you can just say, \"Oh, well, we're going to decide that on a week to week basis or on a quarter to quarter.\" I probably have said this to you before in one of these other podcast conversations, but I just really think that life is a giant science experiment. So if that's true, then you can just say, \"Hey, y'all, for Q3, we're going to try this. And at the end of Q3, we'll ask you how that went, and we'll either keep doing it, or we'll totally change it, or we'll increment it.\" \n\nSoftware people are really good at this because they know that not everything has to go from 2.0 to 3.0. You could go 2.1, 2.2, 2.3. There are incremental builders. So if you can leverage that metaphor even culturally or socially with the makeup of the team and the way you run things, I don't know; I kind of think that's the best you got. \n\nCHAD: Yeah. And I think we generally have the idea that we trust people and that we can provide the information. And people will generally use that information to make good decisions that are oriented towards fulfillment. So a really good example when it comes to managers is in an environment where if you're meeting in person with someone, one team member and you're their manager, and you're not meeting in person with another, that could influence negatively the other person's path to promotion or the relationship they have with you and just subtly bias you towards the person that you might be able to meet in person with. And so as a manager, making sure people know that, that that is a thing that can happen is a good way to manage that bias because I think generally, people don't want to let that happen, but they might not even realize it, so they can actively manage it. \n\nJEN: Well, it sounds like even in that thought, you are gently nudging people back towards intention and back towards just not sleepwalking through their work, that this is important for us, not only in the distance conversation here but also obviously for race, and for gender and for all kinds of different ways that humans are. We will never get it 100% right and yet intention, and taking a beat, and taking a breath before you move into conversations about promotions or whatever will help remind you hang on a second, remember there's invisible stuff inevitably going on based on who I am and where I came from. How do I make sure things are fair today? Or whatever the reminder needs to be. It sounds like that's...I don't know. It's good that you have that front of mind.\n\nCHAD: So that's one example of remote management. How much of before the pandemic were people who were coming and attending the workshops? Were they managing people remotely? And how much of your curriculum was specific to that, if any? \n\nJEN: My gut says maybe about a third were remote managers. They are definitely with bigger companies that I was seeing that. The small agencies based in Pittsburgh, you know, Austin, those places were pretty localized. But so what you get with a bigger company is also a bit more infrastructure that supports some of these cultural conversations. \n\nAnd we had it as part of the curriculum, but it wasn't very big, and maybe I would sort of be intentional. There are breakout groups and stuff like that. And I might think I'm going to pair these two together for their practice one-on-one because I know they're both remote managers. I am very intentional about a lot of the pairings and all that stuff, and so I would be thoughtful in that way. But now, on some level, in all these virtual workshops, everybody has an equal footing now. So everybody's kind of screwed, and everybody's also making it work. So that has been a very interesting thing to see. \n\nAnd I always laugh at this example, a woman who came early on, maybe like the eighth or ninth cohort, and she's a remote manager. And she would say, \"Well, I don't have a water cooler. I don't have, like, I'm walking down the hall sensing somebody’s upset or anything.\" But she would say, \"This is going to sound weird, but I keep an eye on how fast they emoji something.\" So if you have a person who...You know this person in Slack. They're always on Slack, always so supportive, funny, have something to say, a little thumbs-up emoji, or whatever. But if one day they're at work for sure and they haven't said anything about something, she would learn to read the tea leaves like that and check-in. And I just thought that was so clever and very creative. \n\nAnd what she's alluding to is this level three listening that I teach, which is gut or instinct or intuition. And what she was tracking was basically a change in behavior. And that's pretty much what we're tracking when we're in the office too. There could be many reasons why somebody doesn't emoji something right away. Maybe your daughter just ran into the room. Maybe there's a doorbell. There are a million things. But at the same time, not to be too precious about it but to casually track that at least instinctively. She was doing a good job of meeting the moment as best she could.\n\nCHAD: Are there other ways in which what you've been doing has changed over the last year? What are managers concerned about or challenged by? \n\nJEN: Yeah. First of all, I always had name tags that allowed for pronouns. But this is now certainly part of the curriculum. When we start, I give some social norms and then some tech norms. And so I make the suggestion that in Zoom, after your name, you put your pronouns. And it's not a huge chunk because I really don't feel like I am the best to teach this, but I've added in a DEI component, diversity, equity, inclusion component. And we have some folks in the alumni community who are DEI consultants, so that's great. I always give them shout-outs and refer over if people are looking for that.\n\nI've noticed that people are...I'll say careful, but what I mean by careful is that they are aware of all of the stuff we're talking about, like race and social stuff. Depending on where your office was in the country, the election was sometimes really hard. I think about companies in Ohio or Pennsylvania or swing states where it was not obvious that everybody in the office was on the same page about that. And the way that that stuff comes up and is like this piece of baggage in the room that prevents literally like a website being made. We want to think no, that shouldn't enter. That's not relevant here. \n\nAnd yet people are careful about both trying to say, \"Listen, bring who you are. You're accepted here.\" And also like, well, sometimes what you're suggesting you believe about the world is harmful. The whole Basecamp thing is a good example of that. And so I found the managers who come to my training to just be open to not only sharing their experiences with that but looking very much for some guidance on that from their peers and then from me. \n\nCHAD: That's sort of what I was saying about people felt like you needed to be changing the way that you were approaching things. It wasn't okay anymore for most people to say, \"We shouldn't be having this conversation. It's not a work-related conversation.\" It affects people's work and their ability to work. It is a work issue. And you can't simply put everything aside. That's one angle of it, but we're not all equipped. We're not all educated. We're not all ready to be able to do that as managers. \n\nJEN: Totally. But with the amount of shit that we have had to handle for the last two years, short of somebody who's a social worker/priest, I don't know who was ready. I feel like a lot of what we're talking about is so resonant for me because all of this is so hard. And if you are alone doing hard things, it's impossible. But the reason that I run the manager trainings the way I do and the reason that I hold onto them after and I put them in a Slack community, they're now alumni of the program. And it's active; it depends on the day. But people have hard questions that they're wrestling with. People have jobs that they're promoting, that they're trying to get people to apply to. It's this active community that goes on afterwards. \n\nBecause, honestly, Chad, I feel like a big input into me creating So You're Now a Manager and the community around it was my experience becoming a parent. I was one of the first ones of all my friends. I was the first one of my siblings, and my son was the first grandchild on both sides. And I was like, this is so lonely. All my friends are going out in Brooklyn for dinner. And I was 31. It's not like I was very young or anything, but that's New York. And so I had a moms’ group. And man, that moms’ group got me through those early days because we could all laugh at how hard it was. We could cry together. \n\nAnd when I looked at the transition that people go through from IC, individual contributor, to manager or some level of leadership, you get responsibility. You have to play the messenger sometimes, something you're not totally down with. You have sometimes competition with peers. You have to manage up sometimes. And then you have these people who come to you with requests: I want a new career path. I want more money. I want a different title. And the slog of that is very reminiscent, on some level, of parenting to me. \n\nSo I thought, well, this is not going to be like, here's your book. Good luck being a manager, although books could be helpful. For me, it seemed like there was at least a certain template of a person in the world who could use community too. So I always say you'll be with me for two days or a month if it's virtual. But I can't possibly teach you everything you'll encounter. That said, we can get some critical skills under your belt. And then you can just continue to riff with this peer network. And that has been a very, I would say, unique thing about the manager training I run and something that is so fulfilling to me. I have a very tiny business. Those are, in weird ways, kind of my colleagues, the funny jokes they tell or those personalities. That was another thing that we had to let go of. In 2020, I was going to have the first reunion.\n\nCHAD: Oh yeah. We actually talked about that in the previous episode as an idea.\n\nJEN: Heartbreaking. Yeah, it was called Encore. Basically, it was a follow-up and open to anybody that has already taken SNYAM, So Now You're a Manager. I had people who pitched talks, and we had selected them. And yeah, we had to pull the plug on that. So my hope is that next year we can do that. And now we've got almost...actually; I think we just hit 300 people, so maybe 50 will come, I don't know. We'll see. But I like the idea of providing a space for these folks who were new managers when I knew them and when they came through me but have gained some skills themselves and could become thought leaders in this management space. And whenever the world is ready for it, I'm excited to put that together. \n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's awesome. That sense of community is one thing I've struggled with, to be honest. Because having done this for 18 years, there aren't many people who worked at the company that work there now anymore. [chuckles] We've grown too. So I no longer have the close personal relationship that I had with most people at the company before or close work relationships. And combined with as we've grown, it's harder...you have to be more of a leader. You have to put yourself aside. It's harder to always be a servant to others. And then I found that especially difficult last year. And it's part of why I needed to not be CEO anymore and to transition to the COO role. Because I couldn't be in a position where everyone was always looking to me continually to make...and as distributed as we are, one of our values is self-management. But continually always looking to me to be the one who always has an answer, who is the stable one, I needed a break from that. So it's been nice, the transition.\n\nJEN: I was going to say is it better?\n\nCHAD: [chuckles] So it's a little bit different than I expected. So what happened was we made that change. We made other changes, and that was all going well. And then, in February, the largest vaccine scheduling provider in the United States came to us and needed help scaling the infrastructure and all that stuff. \n\nJEN: Oh my God. That's exciting. \n\nCHAD: And so I, along with a crack team of other experienced thoughtboters, went and spent all of our time focused on that. It has pros and cons, which is right as I was transitioning into a new role; I completely got pulled away and started working full-time with that client for a very important cause, which is the reason why we did it and decided it was worth it. The silver lining is it put everyone else in a position where we went very quickly from Chad's no longer the CEO to Chad's not here right now. [chuckles] And that was unexpected. But I think that it had downsides, but it had upsides too in terms of really being in a position where people could come into their own, into their new roles and sort of a forcing function for some of the changes that we needed to make.\n\nJEN: You know, I'll give you major props on that, Chad. Because 18 years and especially, I think this about a lot of things, but especially business here, people get stuck. They really do. They get stuck, especially founders, CEOs. They don't know how to get out of something if they're tired. And there are not a lot of models for what that could look like. The biggest disservice someone could make to leading a company would be to not really be feeling it because that shit trickles down. And if you're tired or if it's not your thing anymore, really, the biggest gift you can give is to go get aligned somewhere else and then hand over the reins to what I keep thinking of as the next generation. \n\nI coach a lot of people, or I work with a lot of people who are in the middle, let's say, so they're not C-suite, and they're not newest managers, but they're sort of senior there. They're totally ready to go. I can't overstate that. [chuckles] Will they mess stuff up? Sure. So did you. Will they have questions? Absolutely. But the next generation of every company it's the most strategic thing that a CEO could do is to think, what happens if I'm not here? That allows you to take a freaking vacation, like take a month off. Or that allows you to meet such a huge civic call, which you're describing here, and step away. Or again, God forbid something happened, and you get very sick; it allows the company to be bigger than yourself. \n\nSo I just commend you on even having the courage to step towards COO and then obviously also kind of redirect as needed this year. But I hope that if there are other CEOs listening or folks in the C-suite who are wiped, this is my gentle nudge to them to hand over the reins at some point. Because you'll get a paycheck, I’m sure you can figure that. \n\nCHAD: [chuckles] Being wiped was one small part of it. And I had Diana on who's the new CEO, and we talked about this. We had grown to a certain point. Also, to toot my own horn, I had done a really good job of building a team of managing directors who were really good at what they were doing. And I was no longer the best manager for them. I was no longer what they needed in order to continue to grow. I could do it, but I wasn't the best person for it. So that was the overriding reason to make the change, and being tired and needing to not always be the one that everyone was looking to was certainly a part of it. But yeah, it's been good. \n\nJEN: Yeah. I figured we would get there at some point, but we talked a little bit earlier about how I have this new product coming out in September. So the product is called Manager Weeklies, and it's basically...I got to figure out the exact noun for this. I guess this is the marketing moment. [chuckles] But it's basically a small notebook. The way I think of it is it helps you take a deep breath before your week starts. And so I'm not messing with your to-do lists. Everybody has different versions of that, Trello or wherever the heck you keep it. But before you start the week, it is so important to wonder where's my energy at? What's my perspective? What are the couple of priorities? What am I blocking? Just a couple of invitation questions there.\n\nAnd then the idea is that you then can do this on whatever, a Sunday night or Monday morning. And then the rest of the week has, I feel like I've said intention 50 times in this conversation but has intention in it. You can decline those three meetings because they're not the highest priority. You can make some space to actually do the work that comes out of the meetings that you're in. And what I have watched over the last maybe three years are my coaching clients who get themselves together at the beginning of the week who have some sort of practice about setting things up in a good way are the most successful. They get the promotions because they look like they know what they're doing because they do.\n\nSo anyway, it's called Manager Weeklies. So it's a small notebook. Each notebook is for a quarter. And then, because I'm a coach, I also filled it with other good stuff. Like at the end, there are all kinds of prompts for ways to give praise to people on your team, ways to give feedback, ways to handle conflict, ways to say, \"Yes, no, maybe.\" And then there's a Work Wheel tool at the very end. \n\nAnd so my hope is that people who just feel like they show up on a Monday already behind that they would find some help with that intention. And I feel like what you're saying is that self-awareness component that came through for you, Chad, to say, I'm not the best at this, and also, I'm a little fatigued and so, therefore, deep breath. Here's the strategy going forward. It wasn't reactive, but there was some thought behind it. And so we'll see this fall people get a chance to try that out. \n\nCHAD: That's awesome. I feel like it's getting back to your roots but also building on it. So for people who don't know, the Plucky Cards were actually the first way that I was introduced to you was someone showing me a pack of those cards. So, where can people find out more about that?\n\nJEN: The best way for people to find any information is just to subscribe to the newsletter. I send it once a month. It's usually a reflection on work, life, something going on there. So if you go to beplucky.com/newsletter, then you'll be first in the know. What's very funny, Chad, is I have a former coaching client who holds the record now. He was the first one to buy the first pack of cards. He was the first one to buy the second pack of cards. [laughs] And he was also the first one to do this Small Group ticket that I recently did as a little offshoot of Plucky. So anyway, in my mind, I always laugh, and I wonder, I wonder if he's going to grab the first pack of Manager Weeklies this fall.\n\nBut you're right. They certainly plug and play with the cards very well where there's even space in the weekly template to say, what's the one-on-one topic for the week? So it could be a card that you pull, and you use, or it could just be something else going on in the world that you want to bring to all the one-on-ones. But I feel like there are a lot of things I'm not great at in the world, but the things I am good at are people. And then I listen to people over and over again through all of these experiences. And I try to hear what else do they need? What weird little thing can I invent that could help them with some of these things that they struggle with? \n\nAnd I'm also just really mindful of the fact that not everybody has the budget for coaching or for manager training. And I would love for Plucky to be a brand that even if you work for a nonprofit or if you don't have the money to pay for some of those more expensive things that you would have 35 bucks for a pack of cards or 20 bucks or whatever the pricing will be for the notebooks and that you can engage with my brand, even if you're not very wealthy. And I feel like as a person who works and serves an industry like tech, that is always really a priority for me to not only coach or work with the people with the most money.\n\nCHAD: Yeah. If I remember right, you designed the cards, right? \n\nJEN: Oh my God, I wish. No. \n\nCHAD: Oh, okay. \n\nJEN: For the first pack of cards I worked with, I don't know if you know him, Greg Storey.\n\nCHAD: Yeah. \n\nJEN: He's great. Greg Storey did my first deck of cards, and then he moved on, and he's doing other interesting things with his career. So I have a designer who helped me with the second deck of cards called the Manager Pack. So that's questions for managers of managers to bring to one-on-ones, and then the Manager Weeklies are coming out. I've been collaborating with a woman who runs a design little shop called YupGup in Delaware. So her name is Joni. So it is so wild, Chad. I wish that I had any design sense. But it's like, I make these things which look like a terrible PowerPoint. I'm like, here, then there will be a bullet. And then I give it to a designer like Joni at YupGup, and all of a sudden, she has a logo. And then she has some emojis and colors. And I'm like, this is how I felt when I was pregnant, and someone showed me a sonogram, and I was like, (gasps) there's a baby in there. \n\nCHAD: [laughs]\n\nJEN: This is how I felt when she showed me them, and it was so exciting. And I will never be good enough to even be talented at all to make these things myself. But I hold the idea, and then I find someone who wants to help me make that in the world. It's just magical. That is so fun for me. And so I just ordered them. Actually, I ordered 1,000 of them about three hours ago. And so they'll come in August, and I just know it will be very surreal when I open the box and look at them and think about how many people in the world and pens in the world will be used to set intention, to set up people's weeks and hopefully, make a softer and more fair and thoughtful place to work. \n\nCHAD: And one of the things I love about your business and products is that you know you're having an impact beyond that 1,000 notebooks that you put out in the world because each of those people manages 3, 4, 6, 7 people. And if you can make work better for those people, then you have a 7,000-person impact. \n\nJEN: Yeah. And it's funny you say that because I think that recently...I keep saying I'm about to go away for a month or just be out of work for a month as a break after this whole COVID time. Since starting Plucky eight years ago, I didn't really have a model. I am not a traditional business. And even though many people kept saying, \"When are you going to hire? When are you going to build the team? When are you going to do all of that?\" That is not the shape of Plucky medium-term or long-term. I'm not going to be a coach factory. I certainly could, but then I'd end up super burned out and not liking my job. And then I'd have a sad company, and it would be bad. So I don't want to do that. \n\nCHAD: And that's literally the opposite of Plucky.\n\nJEN: Right. I mean, in the name, right? So, where I have landed as a model is to look at what artists do. And you would never take an artist...I really like Lisa Congdon in Portland. She's a cool, cool artist. And I've heard her speak, and I like her a lot. And what would Lisa Congdon's team look like? She sure isn't hiring other artists to do the work that she's over-signed up for. You get Lisa. And so she has a shop, and then she has partnerships where she teaches at different universities. And as I move into the ninth year here, I'm thinking a lot about what's standing between me and Plucky's shape and what an artist like Lisa Congdon has going on? \n\nAnd honestly, fully transparently, I think it's that I need to own that Plucky is me. And it's so messy in marketing. Do you use the royal 'we'? We at Plucky? Who is we? And I think that there's some good growth in front of me this fall and next year to say, yeah, I'm Jen, and I run a company called Plucky. And I'm putting this stuff out in the world, and I hope to have ripple effects. And it won't be by hiring 100 people. It'll be just like you described, selling things to X people, and then those people's reports, those ripples will follow down. And I'm really grateful to have found myself in this place because I love coming to work every day. \n\nCHAD: Awesome. Well, even though you love coming to work every day, also enjoy your vacation.\n\nJEN: Oh my God. Thank you.\n\nCHAD: And your time off and your time to reflect.\n\nJEN: Yes, thank you so much. \n\nCHAD: You already mentioned the website, but again, mention that, and then are there other places that people can follow along or get in touch with you? \n\nJEN: Yes, sure. So the newsletter, like I said, is beplucky.com/newsletter. On Twitter, you can look at @BePlucky. I'm on LinkedIn, too, obviously for Plucky. And then I have basically a behind-the-scenes account on Instagram because it was too annoying...Like, what do you take pictures of, Chad, when you're a coach? You can't take pictures of confidential conversations. \n\nCHAD: [laughs]\n\nJEN: So Instagram, I was like, I don't know what to do with this anymore. So anyway, I just have a behind-the-scenes one over there, which is called bepluckster because somebody else had it. So yeah, so all those ways. \n\nAnd also, I just generally say that if you're a person listening to this podcast and you just wanted to say something to me or ask a question, you should always just email me. It's just hello@beplucky.com. I love just hearing from people. And I might not be able to send you a three-page essay back, but I really love just interacting. And if something moved you or made you think about something, whether that was something I said or Chad, you can always just shoot me a note and tell me what you're thinking. I am not precious about that. \n\nCHAD: Awesome. Likewise. So you can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. Thanks for joining us, Jen. \n\nJEN: Thank you.\n\nAnnouncer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.Special Guest: Jen Dary.","content_html":"Chad talks to Leadership Coach and Founder of Plucky, Jen Dary, about working with individuals and companies to create healthy dynamics at work.
\n\nIn fact, Plucky just released a new product that aids in doing just that! Manager Weeklies are notebooks designed to help leaders intentionally set up their weeks and track progress. It includes tips and tricks, including useful 1:1 tools. Each notebook is designed to last one quarter.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Jen Dary, founder of Plucky. Jen, welcome back to the podcast.
\n\nJEN: Thank you. My third time. Three time's a charm. I feel very lucky.
\n\nCHAD: There aren't many people who have been on the podcast as guests three or more times. So you're in an ever-increasing select group of returning guests.
\n\nJEN: Thank you. I feel like it's maybe because the Tokyo Olympics have just started, but I feel competitive and ready to take on this third session.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs] So the last time you were on was October 28th, 2019 is when the episode came out.
\n\nJEN: Millennia ago.
\n\nCHAD: Not quite two years ago, but yeah, also a millennia ago. And that was Episode 342 so if people want to go back and take a listen to that. And then before that, you were on Episode 270, which I actually don't even know the date of. It was even longer. So welcome back. You are celebrating the eighth anniversary of Plucky.
\n\nJEN: I know. I don't really think of it in these ways because I don't have an MBA, or I didn't come from a business background or anything. But definitely when I hit five years, I feel like my husband said something about that. He was like, "Honey, you should be really proud. Not a lot of businesses make it five years." And that was not really on my mind.
\n\nBut now that Plucky is eight, I feel like oh man, I'm just so happy to talk about how businesses evolve and how what you thought it was going to be in year one was different than year three, was different than year five, and of course, it's different than year eight. So we're eight years in, but nothing's the same, and everything's the same. I'm sure you've experienced that too.
\n\nCHAD: It was actually the eighth year going into the ninth year mark that we at thoughtbot started to make big changes. And it was that idea of coming up on a decade. It started to feel like, wow, there's real momentum here. And instead of thinking about what the next year looks like, what does the next decade look like? And are we the kind of company that is going to last 20 years? And that put us in a different mindset. And I started to think about the impact we were having and the legacy that we would have. And was it big enough for the size of the company that we had?
\n\nJEN: How old is thoughtbot right now?
\n\nCHAD: We just celebrated our 18th anniversary.
\n\nJEN: Oh my gosh. All right. Well, maybe at the very end, you can give me your best wisdom for the ninth year. [laughter]
\n\nCHAD: Oh jeez. Okay. [chuckles]
\n\nJEN: No presh, but tuck that in the back of your brain.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, get some sleep. That's my best advice.
\n\nJEN: [laughs] Great.
\n\nCHAD: That would be great. We can come back to that.
\n\nJEN: Cool.
\n\nCHAD: So obviously, it's been a big two years since we last talked. I'm sure a lot has progressed in Plucky. How have things changed?
\n\nJEN: Well, what's funny is that the two years spread that we're talking about or 18 months or whatever it is, for the most part, overlaps with COVID so far. So by the end of 2019, things were cooking, and everything is good. And even, personally speaking, my youngest son would be entering kindergarten in the fall of 2020. Again, as a business owner, a mom, all those things I was sort of at the end of 2019 hot, so good.
\n\nAnd then I was anticipating 2020 to be continued pretty much the same as is. Like, we would keep training managers. I would keep traveling. All that would get easier because the kids are getting bigger, then my kid would go to kindergarten. And I was also finishing a book about...I can't remember if we talked about this before, but I was really sick in 2016. I had a brain tumor diagnosis, and I'm okay now. It was benign. I had this memoir that was eh, I don't know, maybe two-thirds done. All that was the plan for 2020, Chad. And I'm sure this is shocking news to you, but none of it happened, including freaking kindergarten, obviously in person.
\n\nSo on the business side of things, I kept everything stable as best as I could. So coaching kept going because coaching has always been remote. We have some products, and we kept shipping those out as best we could. At the very beginning of COVID, when everybody thought it was this three, four-week hiatus from real life, I recorded a story every day. Because I was like, what can I do for all the world that's working? So I recorded a storytime for Plucky with my kids. And I put it out on social media so that working parents could have another 15 minutes of distraction for their kids. That's how cute I was back then. [laughter] After one month of that, I was like, I need somebody to read stories to my kids. Yikes.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. [laughs]
\n\nJEN: So the big thing that changed was that our manager trainings in person obviously I had to cancel those. So I transitioned from in-person to virtual events, and that has continued. And as of this recording, end of July, I was thinking that our November event this year…it's the 20th cohort of So Now You're a Manager. I was going to have it in person. And just last week, I pulled the plug on that. And I was like, no, we're going to stay virtual a little bit longer because I don't know how to predict what the hell is coming. So again, that sort of stabilizing, right? Like, okay, well, now I know how to do the virtual. That will be the stable choice this year, which is weird to say, but true.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. So you just gave a great organic listing of the things that Plucky does, and a big part of that was that in-person So Now You're a Manager training, which, if people remember from the previous episodes, new managers at thoughtbot have attended over the years. It's a really great training for people who become managers. So what was transitioning that to remote like? Because you'd only ever done it in person before, right?
\n\nJEN: Yeah, totally. The first 11 cohorts were in person, and then we got to 12, and that was supposed to happen in March in Atlanta. We canceled that, and it wasn't until June that we had the 12th, and that was the first virtual one. And to say that I needed to go through stages of grief is probably pretty accurate. [chuckles]
\n\nMy energy in person is so a thing, like a tool of mine and just pulling people together, and making safe space for conversations and all that jazz. So I was like, what the hell is that going to be like on Zoom? And meanwhile, remember I'm watching my first grader go through the shenanigans of Zoom for the end of that year. And I'm like, oh my God, how am I possibly going to get grown-ups on this and paying attention and not being distracted?
\n\nSo a couple of things, I will say number one is I definitely interviewed four or five people in the industry who are good at virtual events, and I tried to get their deepest wisdom about it. The second thing is that I made the cohorts smaller. So in person, we have around 20 to 22 max, and in virtual, we do 10 to 12 max. And so that got a lot smaller. Also, instead of being two days back to back, I broke it into three half days which is just a different ask. And I wasn't sure if people would bite at that.
\n\nI tried to mimic it after how some people do an MBA on the side. So then they go to work, and they practice the stuff they're learning at the MBA. And so that has been my thought like, okay, you'll be with me basically for a month. We'll have three half days together, usually on a Friday. And then you're practicing in the meantime. So between the times I see you, you're improving your listening skills. You're coming back with anecdotes about hires or tough conversations or whatever. So I won't say that's like a silver lining, but it's just a different beast. And the first day I did it, I mean, I'm telling you, I was on the bathroom floor on my knees like, don't let the internet go out.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJEN: I was so scared. I don't know why looking back. I'm in tech, but I'm not technical. It's my husband who helps me set up a monitor and whatnot. Oh God, I was so nervous. And I just thought, shit, this is the thing I can't problem-solve. If the internet goes out, I don't know what to do, but if someone's upset, I can help them. So it just brought all of my skills in a different environment. And now I feel pretty good about it.
\n\nI don't know if you found this with your distributed company overall, but I have worked very hard to make sure that it's a blend, of course, this digital experience, but also I use the mail. I use snail mail a lot. So attendees get a packet before we begin. They get a gift at the end, a graduation gift. And yeah, I feel like I've learned a lot about how to have a hand-in-hand experience of digital as well as a physical object that they can touch to make that experience more than just a screen.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I think that's important. How did changing the format, reducing the class size, what business ramifications were there for that?
\n\nJEN: Well, it's way less money. [chuckles]
\n\nCHAD: Right. Okay, sorry.
\n\nJEN: No. Oh my God. I want to be very real about these things, especially for people starting their businesses. It's way less money. And also if you think about it, everybody had already bought tickets to Atlanta, and then they had already started buying tickets to...I can't remember what the next one was going to be, New York, I think. So for a lot of the year, everything was, I'll say, comped, but that's not really what's going on. All of a sudden, the amount of seats that I thought I was selling for the year got reduced in about half, and much of that were already pre-bought tickets. So, as a line item, that was way lower.
\n\nI also think I got...man, I haven't really said this transparently to anybody before, but I'll say it here. I got really scared about what to charge. Do you charge the same thing virtually than you do in person? And so I lowered it, I would say for a year. I lowered it by a couple of hundred dollars for each ticket because I didn't know what the market wanted. And also, I didn't know, oh God, were businesses closing? Were people getting prof dev budgets? Everybody was frozen for a good while. So I'm lucky that now today I'm back up to the same price that it had been before, but it's not as much income per event.
\n\nAnd the other thing I'll say which affects money…but again, I want to be transparent for other folks who think about or currently run businesses. One great thing to come out of some of the social unrest of last year is that we now have an equity scholarship for So Now You're a Manager. So in every cohort, be that virtually or in person, I always reserve a seat for someone who's coming from an underrepresented group, so people apply. And that is something that I very happily said I will eat the cost of that ticket because it's important to me to have different voices in the room. And that has been a total awesome thing this year. That just started in January of 2021, but that's something really great that came out of last year.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. What did you find that customers wanted, and did it change over time? Was there an appetite for it to be remote, or was there resistance to it?
\n\nJEN: I think at first people were overwhelmed and didn't want it. That's why I held it from March until June until I thought people were ready. I can tell you categorically that I've had the lowest percentage of parents attend of all time because, let's be real, who wants another kind of obligation? Or also, parents during this time, especially with young children, were not in that growth space necessarily for work because there was so much to keep afloat. So other than the three half days, I also have this optional hour that I throw in just if people can come; there’s this extra exercise that didn't fit in from the original curriculum. And I don't think I've had one parent, maybe one, come across all those cohorts that have been virtual to that. So the optional stuff I see parents opting out of.
\n\nThat said, I saw more folks who maybe either live alone or maybe have a roommate but who are pre-family or some people won't have families but someone who was socially like, "It was so hard and tiring last year." And that sort of swung back around towards the summer and end of summer. I saw much more interest there because I think people were really lonely.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. And I also think, at least for me personally and for thoughtbot, that was when the thinking definitely shifted that this wasn't going to be going away anytime soon. And so we came to terms with that and started to then make much more long-term plans and permanent changes.
\n\nJEN: I think it was also in the...I want to say like early fall when Twitter announced they'd be remote. Like, they have an office, but they wouldn't oblige anyone to ever come back again. And whenever that decision was made, there were a couple of other companies...At that point, I was still living in the Bay Area, and there were a couple of other companies that made similar suggestions. And so again, to your point, there was a revisioning of what the next phase was like or at least what to expect. And so, I think people weren't holding out to go back to normal. It was like, what's the new normal?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. So when we first shut down offices and went remote, we were giving updates every two weeks, and then it changed to every month. And then it would be like, "There's really no change. We're going to give another update in April." And then April was, "We'll give another update in May." And when it came to June, we just said, "We're planning on being in this mode for at least the end of the year. Let's start all acting and make this sustainable." So that is when our thinking changed too.
\n\nJEN: Did you feel like with your CEOness and business responsibility over there...what kept you grounded for all that thing? Because obviously every time you make that announcement or regardless of whether that's in person or just...I don't even know– retention or whatever it is. It feels like you're just building strategy on freaking quicksand.
\n\nCHAD: It wasn't easy. You feel responsible for everybody's well-being, both financially and everything else. And so the lack of stability…you want to provide it in an unstable world. You want to say, "Well, at least you shouldn't have to worry about this. Let’s provide…" but it was impossible to do. And I'm much more comfortable with uncertainty. I think there's a spectrum of comfortableness with uncertainty, and I'm pretty far on one end of it, and even I was struggling. Same thing with like I'm very much on the spectrum of not having to worry about anxiety or anything like that, and even I was feeling it. And so I was just like...at one point I said to I think it was Diana or whatever "If I'm feeling this, if I'm getting chest palpitations, [laughs] something's really wrong, and we really need to pay attention to how everybody else is feeling."
\n\nJEN: Oh, yeah. I even saw that anxiety obviously with coaching clients. There are some clients that when budgets dried up, there was like an initial drop-off, I would say March, April. But then I feel very lucky that the pipeline was still very strong, and I had clients stay with me or join or whatever.
\n\nYou remember as well as anybody not only did we have this health crisis going on, which again we still do but my last class...So third of three of the cohort in May last year was a couple of days after George Floyd's murder. And the responsibility I felt too...like, when all these things were going on last summer, it was like, who freaking cares about anything? It's like these huge things. And you start to say nothing matters. There are only three things that matter in life. And then you kept sort of recycling the drain on that.
\n\nSo here I am going into teaching the third of three classes. And during the third class, I always teach concepts on how to hire, concepts on how to lay someone off and fire someone, which everyone's always very barfy and nervous about. And I try to bring us together and graduate us in what feels like a victorious moment. But that's three days after George Floyd's murder, and everyone is reeling and needing to process. And I remember thinking that morning, I don't know how this is going to go because I was fully willing to rip up the plan and do something different. But at the same time, there's also sometimes they want some structure. Folks want to just show up and take this class and be distracted from what's going on in the world.
\n\nSo we sort of talked about this a few minutes before we started recording but really, what has been fascinating and challenging about continuing to train managers over the last two years is that these very large things are going on in the background: George Floyd's murder, a lot of social unrest in Minneapolis, the election, COVID, all these things. And you can't just put that away and show up to manager training. It is freaking relevant because it is relevant for them. Of course, it's very meta, but all of my students are then going to go back and be responsible for 3, 5, 7 other people in their day-to-day work. So it was really wild, but again, stretching and a challenge that I met with a lot of intention. I don't know if I was always super successful at it, but I thought a lot about it.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I think that was the shift that we saw on our team. And what I've heard from people is that enough is enough in several different categories of things. And like, we just can't keep on doing what we were doing before. It's not working, and it is unacceptable. People are angry too. So it's not just processing. It's anger and wanting to see action, wanting to take action. And yet, doing it in a world where we can't actually be together, I think, made it particularly challenging for some people and for managers to know how to meet their team members where they were. And people process things in different ways too, and people need different things.
\n\nAnd at that point, we had hired people who had only ever been remote. So I think the connections that you have with people that you might've worked with in person you can lean on a lot in the beginning. But then you're working with someone or managing someone who you've never met in person.
\n\nJEN: Yeah. It's a whole new ball game. And I think that the notion of community has gone through the wringer, not only in the worst, it's a rebirth almost. I think the notion of locally what's going on for you and then who can you see? Who can you have a barbecue with? All of those questions of like, who can I be with? Of course, the internet's great, but the internet has some major, major boundaries to it. And people see that at work, and they see that in training.
\n\nCHAD: One of the things we're struggling with in that category now is there are people who live next to each other because we were historically in offices. And as it becomes more possible to get together with each other, and this is something that, as managers, we're trying to navigate, it actually has a huge potential for exclusion now that we have hired a bunch of people who are anywhere.
\n\nIf the teams that were in-person together but are now working remotely start getting in person again, even if it's just an outing at a park, who's not able to attend that, and how will they feel? And what expectations have we set with them? And then you have just sort of equity and inclusion issues around people we've hired in Brazil since we've gone remote. There's no way for them to come.
\n\nJEN: Sure.
\n\nCHAD: It's not fair. And navigating that as a team, I think we've been able to do that, but it hasn't been easy.
\n\nJEN: I think sometimes the only way to see it is none of it will work. So if none of it will work, then cool. The bar's low. [laughter] Yeah, it's not going to be perfect. And all in person had its issues too. So then, if you just sort of bottom it out and say, cool, cool, cool, there's no one silver bullet answer here. So what that means is yes, as human beings, folks who are possibly able to meet up for coffee will resonate and glow and be psyched to be around some other people. So, how do we say "No," less often to that? Because that's great. That's really something to celebrate. And I'm sure if everybody was in that situation, they would try to take advantage of that too. But then to say, if you're not in that situation, here's another option.
\n\nAnd then, every once in a while, we'll mix those options together and have like a rolling menu with it so that nothing gets too static and paralyzed and presumed. And it's in that flow state, which of course, is more fatiguing because you have decision fatigue, and you got to keep making decisions about it. But if you can just say, "Oh, well, we're going to decide that on a week to week basis or on a quarter to quarter." I probably have said this to you before in one of these other podcast conversations, but I just really think that life is a giant science experiment. So if that's true, then you can just say, "Hey, y'all, for Q3, we're going to try this. And at the end of Q3, we'll ask you how that went, and we'll either keep doing it, or we'll totally change it, or we'll increment it."
\n\nSoftware people are really good at this because they know that not everything has to go from 2.0 to 3.0. You could go 2.1, 2.2, 2.3. There are incremental builders. So if you can leverage that metaphor even culturally or socially with the makeup of the team and the way you run things, I don't know; I kind of think that's the best you got.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. And I think we generally have the idea that we trust people and that we can provide the information. And people will generally use that information to make good decisions that are oriented towards fulfillment. So a really good example when it comes to managers is in an environment where if you're meeting in person with someone, one team member and you're their manager, and you're not meeting in person with another, that could influence negatively the other person's path to promotion or the relationship they have with you and just subtly bias you towards the person that you might be able to meet in person with. And so as a manager, making sure people know that, that that is a thing that can happen is a good way to manage that bias because I think generally, people don't want to let that happen, but they might not even realize it, so they can actively manage it.
\n\nJEN: Well, it sounds like even in that thought, you are gently nudging people back towards intention and back towards just not sleepwalking through their work, that this is important for us, not only in the distance conversation here but also obviously for race, and for gender and for all kinds of different ways that humans are. We will never get it 100% right and yet intention, and taking a beat, and taking a breath before you move into conversations about promotions or whatever will help remind you hang on a second, remember there's invisible stuff inevitably going on based on who I am and where I came from. How do I make sure things are fair today? Or whatever the reminder needs to be. It sounds like that's...I don't know. It's good that you have that front of mind.
\n\nCHAD: So that's one example of remote management. How much of before the pandemic were people who were coming and attending the workshops? Were they managing people remotely? And how much of your curriculum was specific to that, if any?
\n\nJEN: My gut says maybe about a third were remote managers. They are definitely with bigger companies that I was seeing that. The small agencies based in Pittsburgh, you know, Austin, those places were pretty localized. But so what you get with a bigger company is also a bit more infrastructure that supports some of these cultural conversations.
\n\nAnd we had it as part of the curriculum, but it wasn't very big, and maybe I would sort of be intentional. There are breakout groups and stuff like that. And I might think I'm going to pair these two together for their practice one-on-one because I know they're both remote managers. I am very intentional about a lot of the pairings and all that stuff, and so I would be thoughtful in that way. But now, on some level, in all these virtual workshops, everybody has an equal footing now. So everybody's kind of screwed, and everybody's also making it work. So that has been a very interesting thing to see.
\n\nAnd I always laugh at this example, a woman who came early on, maybe like the eighth or ninth cohort, and she's a remote manager. And she would say, "Well, I don't have a water cooler. I don't have, like, I'm walking down the hall sensing somebody’s upset or anything." But she would say, "This is going to sound weird, but I keep an eye on how fast they emoji something." So if you have a person who...You know this person in Slack. They're always on Slack, always so supportive, funny, have something to say, a little thumbs-up emoji, or whatever. But if one day they're at work for sure and they haven't said anything about something, she would learn to read the tea leaves like that and check-in. And I just thought that was so clever and very creative.
\n\nAnd what she's alluding to is this level three listening that I teach, which is gut or instinct or intuition. And what she was tracking was basically a change in behavior. And that's pretty much what we're tracking when we're in the office too. There could be many reasons why somebody doesn't emoji something right away. Maybe your daughter just ran into the room. Maybe there's a doorbell. There are a million things. But at the same time, not to be too precious about it but to casually track that at least instinctively. She was doing a good job of meeting the moment as best she could.
\n\nCHAD: Are there other ways in which what you've been doing has changed over the last year? What are managers concerned about or challenged by?
\n\nJEN: Yeah. First of all, I always had name tags that allowed for pronouns. But this is now certainly part of the curriculum. When we start, I give some social norms and then some tech norms. And so I make the suggestion that in Zoom, after your name, you put your pronouns. And it's not a huge chunk because I really don't feel like I am the best to teach this, but I've added in a DEI component, diversity, equity, inclusion component. And we have some folks in the alumni community who are DEI consultants, so that's great. I always give them shout-outs and refer over if people are looking for that.
\n\nI've noticed that people are...I'll say careful, but what I mean by careful is that they are aware of all of the stuff we're talking about, like race and social stuff. Depending on where your office was in the country, the election was sometimes really hard. I think about companies in Ohio or Pennsylvania or swing states where it was not obvious that everybody in the office was on the same page about that. And the way that that stuff comes up and is like this piece of baggage in the room that prevents literally like a website being made. We want to think no, that shouldn't enter. That's not relevant here.
\n\nAnd yet people are careful about both trying to say, "Listen, bring who you are. You're accepted here." And also like, well, sometimes what you're suggesting you believe about the world is harmful. The whole Basecamp thing is a good example of that. And so I found the managers who come to my training to just be open to not only sharing their experiences with that but looking very much for some guidance on that from their peers and then from me.
\n\nCHAD: That's sort of what I was saying about people felt like you needed to be changing the way that you were approaching things. It wasn't okay anymore for most people to say, "We shouldn't be having this conversation. It's not a work-related conversation." It affects people's work and their ability to work. It is a work issue. And you can't simply put everything aside. That's one angle of it, but we're not all equipped. We're not all educated. We're not all ready to be able to do that as managers.
\n\nJEN: Totally. But with the amount of shit that we have had to handle for the last two years, short of somebody who's a social worker/priest, I don't know who was ready. I feel like a lot of what we're talking about is so resonant for me because all of this is so hard. And if you are alone doing hard things, it's impossible. But the reason that I run the manager trainings the way I do and the reason that I hold onto them after and I put them in a Slack community, they're now alumni of the program. And it's active; it depends on the day. But people have hard questions that they're wrestling with. People have jobs that they're promoting, that they're trying to get people to apply to. It's this active community that goes on afterwards.
\n\nBecause, honestly, Chad, I feel like a big input into me creating So You're Now a Manager and the community around it was my experience becoming a parent. I was one of the first ones of all my friends. I was the first one of my siblings, and my son was the first grandchild on both sides. And I was like, this is so lonely. All my friends are going out in Brooklyn for dinner. And I was 31. It's not like I was very young or anything, but that's New York. And so I had a moms’ group. And man, that moms’ group got me through those early days because we could all laugh at how hard it was. We could cry together.
\n\nAnd when I looked at the transition that people go through from IC, individual contributor, to manager or some level of leadership, you get responsibility. You have to play the messenger sometimes, something you're not totally down with. You have sometimes competition with peers. You have to manage up sometimes. And then you have these people who come to you with requests: I want a new career path. I want more money. I want a different title. And the slog of that is very reminiscent, on some level, of parenting to me.
\n\nSo I thought, well, this is not going to be like, here's your book. Good luck being a manager, although books could be helpful. For me, it seemed like there was at least a certain template of a person in the world who could use community too. So I always say you'll be with me for two days or a month if it's virtual. But I can't possibly teach you everything you'll encounter. That said, we can get some critical skills under your belt. And then you can just continue to riff with this peer network. And that has been a very, I would say, unique thing about the manager training I run and something that is so fulfilling to me. I have a very tiny business. Those are, in weird ways, kind of my colleagues, the funny jokes they tell or those personalities. That was another thing that we had to let go of. In 2020, I was going to have the first reunion.
\n\nCHAD: Oh yeah. We actually talked about that in the previous episode as an idea.
\n\nJEN: Heartbreaking. Yeah, it was called Encore. Basically, it was a follow-up and open to anybody that has already taken SNYAM, So Now You're a Manager. I had people who pitched talks, and we had selected them. And yeah, we had to pull the plug on that. So my hope is that next year we can do that. And now we've got almost...actually; I think we just hit 300 people, so maybe 50 will come, I don't know. We'll see. But I like the idea of providing a space for these folks who were new managers when I knew them and when they came through me but have gained some skills themselves and could become thought leaders in this management space. And whenever the world is ready for it, I'm excited to put that together.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, that's awesome. That sense of community is one thing I've struggled with, to be honest. Because having done this for 18 years, there aren't many people who worked at the company that work there now anymore. [chuckles] We've grown too. So I no longer have the close personal relationship that I had with most people at the company before or close work relationships. And combined with as we've grown, it's harder...you have to be more of a leader. You have to put yourself aside. It's harder to always be a servant to others. And then I found that especially difficult last year. And it's part of why I needed to not be CEO anymore and to transition to the COO role. Because I couldn't be in a position where everyone was always looking to me continually to make...and as distributed as we are, one of our values is self-management. But continually always looking to me to be the one who always has an answer, who is the stable one, I needed a break from that. So it's been nice, the transition.
\n\nJEN: I was going to say is it better?
\n\nCHAD: [chuckles] So it's a little bit different than I expected. So what happened was we made that change. We made other changes, and that was all going well. And then, in February, the largest vaccine scheduling provider in the United States came to us and needed help scaling the infrastructure and all that stuff.
\n\nJEN: Oh my God. That's exciting.
\n\nCHAD: And so I, along with a crack team of other experienced thoughtboters, went and spent all of our time focused on that. It has pros and cons, which is right as I was transitioning into a new role; I completely got pulled away and started working full-time with that client for a very important cause, which is the reason why we did it and decided it was worth it. The silver lining is it put everyone else in a position where we went very quickly from Chad's no longer the CEO to Chad's not here right now. [chuckles] And that was unexpected. But I think that it had downsides, but it had upsides too in terms of really being in a position where people could come into their own, into their new roles and sort of a forcing function for some of the changes that we needed to make.
\n\nJEN: You know, I'll give you major props on that, Chad. Because 18 years and especially, I think this about a lot of things, but especially business here, people get stuck. They really do. They get stuck, especially founders, CEOs. They don't know how to get out of something if they're tired. And there are not a lot of models for what that could look like. The biggest disservice someone could make to leading a company would be to not really be feeling it because that shit trickles down. And if you're tired or if it's not your thing anymore, really, the biggest gift you can give is to go get aligned somewhere else and then hand over the reins to what I keep thinking of as the next generation.
\n\nI coach a lot of people, or I work with a lot of people who are in the middle, let's say, so they're not C-suite, and they're not newest managers, but they're sort of senior there. They're totally ready to go. I can't overstate that. [chuckles] Will they mess stuff up? Sure. So did you. Will they have questions? Absolutely. But the next generation of every company it's the most strategic thing that a CEO could do is to think, what happens if I'm not here? That allows you to take a freaking vacation, like take a month off. Or that allows you to meet such a huge civic call, which you're describing here, and step away. Or again, God forbid something happened, and you get very sick; it allows the company to be bigger than yourself.
\n\nSo I just commend you on even having the courage to step towards COO and then obviously also kind of redirect as needed this year. But I hope that if there are other CEOs listening or folks in the C-suite who are wiped, this is my gentle nudge to them to hand over the reins at some point. Because you'll get a paycheck, I’m sure you can figure that.
\n\nCHAD: [chuckles] Being wiped was one small part of it. And I had Diana on who's the new CEO, and we talked about this. We had grown to a certain point. Also, to toot my own horn, I had done a really good job of building a team of managing directors who were really good at what they were doing. And I was no longer the best manager for them. I was no longer what they needed in order to continue to grow. I could do it, but I wasn't the best person for it. So that was the overriding reason to make the change, and being tired and needing to not always be the one that everyone was looking to was certainly a part of it. But yeah, it's been good.
\n\nJEN: Yeah. I figured we would get there at some point, but we talked a little bit earlier about how I have this new product coming out in September. So the product is called Manager Weeklies, and it's basically...I got to figure out the exact noun for this. I guess this is the marketing moment. [chuckles] But it's basically a small notebook. The way I think of it is it helps you take a deep breath before your week starts. And so I'm not messing with your to-do lists. Everybody has different versions of that, Trello or wherever the heck you keep it. But before you start the week, it is so important to wonder where's my energy at? What's my perspective? What are the couple of priorities? What am I blocking? Just a couple of invitation questions there.
\n\nAnd then the idea is that you then can do this on whatever, a Sunday night or Monday morning. And then the rest of the week has, I feel like I've said intention 50 times in this conversation but has intention in it. You can decline those three meetings because they're not the highest priority. You can make some space to actually do the work that comes out of the meetings that you're in. And what I have watched over the last maybe three years are my coaching clients who get themselves together at the beginning of the week who have some sort of practice about setting things up in a good way are the most successful. They get the promotions because they look like they know what they're doing because they do.
\n\nSo anyway, it's called Manager Weeklies. So it's a small notebook. Each notebook is for a quarter. And then, because I'm a coach, I also filled it with other good stuff. Like at the end, there are all kinds of prompts for ways to give praise to people on your team, ways to give feedback, ways to handle conflict, ways to say, "Yes, no, maybe." And then there's a Work Wheel tool at the very end.
\n\nAnd so my hope is that people who just feel like they show up on a Monday already behind that they would find some help with that intention. And I feel like what you're saying is that self-awareness component that came through for you, Chad, to say, I'm not the best at this, and also, I'm a little fatigued and so, therefore, deep breath. Here's the strategy going forward. It wasn't reactive, but there was some thought behind it. And so we'll see this fall people get a chance to try that out.
\n\nCHAD: That's awesome. I feel like it's getting back to your roots but also building on it. So for people who don't know, the Plucky Cards were actually the first way that I was introduced to you was someone showing me a pack of those cards. So, where can people find out more about that?
\n\nJEN: The best way for people to find any information is just to subscribe to the newsletter. I send it once a month. It's usually a reflection on work, life, something going on there. So if you go to beplucky.com/newsletter, then you'll be first in the know. What's very funny, Chad, is I have a former coaching client who holds the record now. He was the first one to buy the first pack of cards. He was the first one to buy the second pack of cards. [laughs] And he was also the first one to do this Small Group ticket that I recently did as a little offshoot of Plucky. So anyway, in my mind, I always laugh, and I wonder, I wonder if he's going to grab the first pack of Manager Weeklies this fall.
\n\nBut you're right. They certainly plug and play with the cards very well where there's even space in the weekly template to say, what's the one-on-one topic for the week? So it could be a card that you pull, and you use, or it could just be something else going on in the world that you want to bring to all the one-on-ones. But I feel like there are a lot of things I'm not great at in the world, but the things I am good at are people. And then I listen to people over and over again through all of these experiences. And I try to hear what else do they need? What weird little thing can I invent that could help them with some of these things that they struggle with?
\n\nAnd I'm also just really mindful of the fact that not everybody has the budget for coaching or for manager training. And I would love for Plucky to be a brand that even if you work for a nonprofit or if you don't have the money to pay for some of those more expensive things that you would have 35 bucks for a pack of cards or 20 bucks or whatever the pricing will be for the notebooks and that you can engage with my brand, even if you're not very wealthy. And I feel like as a person who works and serves an industry like tech, that is always really a priority for me to not only coach or work with the people with the most money.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. If I remember right, you designed the cards, right?
\n\nJEN: Oh my God, I wish. No.
\n\nCHAD: Oh, okay.
\n\nJEN: For the first pack of cards I worked with, I don't know if you know him, Greg Storey.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah.
\n\nJEN: He's great. Greg Storey did my first deck of cards, and then he moved on, and he's doing other interesting things with his career. So I have a designer who helped me with the second deck of cards called the Manager Pack. So that's questions for managers of managers to bring to one-on-ones, and then the Manager Weeklies are coming out. I've been collaborating with a woman who runs a design little shop called YupGup in Delaware. So her name is Joni. So it is so wild, Chad. I wish that I had any design sense. But it's like, I make these things which look like a terrible PowerPoint. I'm like, here, then there will be a bullet. And then I give it to a designer like Joni at YupGup, and all of a sudden, she has a logo. And then she has some emojis and colors. And I'm like, this is how I felt when I was pregnant, and someone showed me a sonogram, and I was like, (gasps) there's a baby in there.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJEN: This is how I felt when she showed me them, and it was so exciting. And I will never be good enough to even be talented at all to make these things myself. But I hold the idea, and then I find someone who wants to help me make that in the world. It's just magical. That is so fun for me. And so I just ordered them. Actually, I ordered 1,000 of them about three hours ago. And so they'll come in August, and I just know it will be very surreal when I open the box and look at them and think about how many people in the world and pens in the world will be used to set intention, to set up people's weeks and hopefully, make a softer and more fair and thoughtful place to work.
\n\nCHAD: And one of the things I love about your business and products is that you know you're having an impact beyond that 1,000 notebooks that you put out in the world because each of those people manages 3, 4, 6, 7 people. And if you can make work better for those people, then you have a 7,000-person impact.
\n\nJEN: Yeah. And it's funny you say that because I think that recently...I keep saying I'm about to go away for a month or just be out of work for a month as a break after this whole COVID time. Since starting Plucky eight years ago, I didn't really have a model. I am not a traditional business. And even though many people kept saying, "When are you going to hire? When are you going to build the team? When are you going to do all of that?" That is not the shape of Plucky medium-term or long-term. I'm not going to be a coach factory. I certainly could, but then I'd end up super burned out and not liking my job. And then I'd have a sad company, and it would be bad. So I don't want to do that.
\n\nCHAD: And that's literally the opposite of Plucky.
\n\nJEN: Right. I mean, in the name, right? So, where I have landed as a model is to look at what artists do. And you would never take an artist...I really like Lisa Congdon in Portland. She's a cool, cool artist. And I've heard her speak, and I like her a lot. And what would Lisa Congdon's team look like? She sure isn't hiring other artists to do the work that she's over-signed up for. You get Lisa. And so she has a shop, and then she has partnerships where she teaches at different universities. And as I move into the ninth year here, I'm thinking a lot about what's standing between me and Plucky's shape and what an artist like Lisa Congdon has going on?
\n\nAnd honestly, fully transparently, I think it's that I need to own that Plucky is me. And it's so messy in marketing. Do you use the royal 'we'? We at Plucky? Who is we? And I think that there's some good growth in front of me this fall and next year to say, yeah, I'm Jen, and I run a company called Plucky. And I'm putting this stuff out in the world, and I hope to have ripple effects. And it won't be by hiring 100 people. It'll be just like you described, selling things to X people, and then those people's reports, those ripples will follow down. And I'm really grateful to have found myself in this place because I love coming to work every day.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. Well, even though you love coming to work every day, also enjoy your vacation.
\n\nJEN: Oh my God. Thank you.
\n\nCHAD: And your time off and your time to reflect.
\n\nJEN: Yes, thank you so much.
\n\nCHAD: You already mentioned the website, but again, mention that, and then are there other places that people can follow along or get in touch with you?
\n\nJEN: Yes, sure. So the newsletter, like I said, is beplucky.com/newsletter. On Twitter, you can look at @BePlucky. I'm on LinkedIn, too, obviously for Plucky. And then I have basically a behind-the-scenes account on Instagram because it was too annoying...Like, what do you take pictures of, Chad, when you're a coach? You can't take pictures of confidential conversations.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nJEN: So Instagram, I was like, I don't know what to do with this anymore. So anyway, I just have a behind-the-scenes one over there, which is called bepluckster because somebody else had it. So yeah, so all those ways.
\n\nAnd also, I just generally say that if you're a person listening to this podcast and you just wanted to say something to me or ask a question, you should always just email me. It's just hello@beplucky.com. I love just hearing from people. And I might not be able to send you a three-page essay back, but I really love just interacting. And if something moved you or made you think about something, whether that was something I said or Chad, you can always just shoot me a note and tell me what you're thinking. I am not precious about that.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. Likewise. So you can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. Thanks for joining us, Jen.
\n\nJEN: Thank you.
\n\nAnnouncer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Jen Dary.
","summary":"Chad talks to Leadership Coach and Founder of Plucky, Jen Dary, about working with individuals and companies to create healthy dynamics at work.\r\n\r\nIn fact, Plucky just released a new product that aids in doing just that! Manager Weeklies are notebooks designed to help leaders intentionally set up their weeks and track progress. It includes tips and tricks, including useful 1:1 tools. Each notebook is designed to last one quarter.","date_published":"2021-09-30T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/beeb4ad4-b132-4667-b7d2-469115a330a6.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":59879855,"duration_in_seconds":2935}]},{"id":"6c1ec31e-231d-4b8b-bbf9-9200bc35843e","title":"394: Creating a Remote Culture That Thrives","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/394","content_text":"Chad and Lindsey talk about how the pandemic has changed \"normal\" remote work and how thoughtbot has dealt with the transition from being majoritively in-person to fully remote, plus the impact it's had on both employees and clients.\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. \n\nLINDSEY: And I’m your other host, Lindsey Christensen. We’re back. Chad, I've only seen you pixelated for over a year now. \n\nCHAD: I know. \n\nLINDSEY: Can you believe it? \n\nCHAD: It's hard to believe. I haven't seen anybody that I work with [laughs] not pixelated for over a year now. \n\nLINDSEY: It seems normal now. \n\nCHAD: Yeah, it seems normal, except when you think about it, and you realize how long it's been. We're going to talk about remote work today, and I think that that's something to keep in mind, which is what we're doing now isn't normal remote work. We can make the best of it and that kind of thing, but it's obviously different than normal remote work when you can actually have a social life outside of work and meet people and get together in person to kick off new projects or to be like, “Let's have a retreat or whatever.” So right off the top, we should acknowledge that we're not in this normal period, and this isn't necessarily normal remote work. \n\nLINDSEY: Right. Which is a good thing, I guess, or the optimist in me says remote work can be way better than it is right now because this is quarantining work. [chuckles] \n\nCHAD: Right. So for those who don't know, thoughtbot made the decision to go remote-first work from anywhere. And we touched on it in the previous two episodes a little bit, and that's what we're going to be talking about today. And I think that that's one of the things that made us confident in the direction was that things aren't great now, but they're certainly not bad. And the majority of the team felt good about what was happening now, even given all of the downsides. It gave us the confidence to look ahead and say, “Can this be even better, and will it be okay?” And I think that's part of what gave us the confidence to move forward. \n\nLINDSEY: I saw this interesting stat, and this was actually from a while ago, last July 2020. Gartner did a survey of company leaders, and 80% plan to allow employees to work remotely, at least part of the time after the pandemic, and 47% will allow people to work full-time from home, which is even a bigger percentage than I anticipated. But I think it speaks to the major change that everyone's seeing. We've all learned that remote work can work. I saw another stat that was, I think, no companies are reporting a reduction in productivity because of remote work, and in 27% of cases, companies feel like they're being even more productive. \n\nCHAD: We didn't not do this before because we didn't think it would be productive on a day-to-day basis or that we didn't believe in the ability to work remotely working. There were a couple of important points that caused us to choose the direction we did; the first one being we went through a period of time where we were a hybrid remote or about half the team was remote, and the other half was working in an office in Boston. And it felt hard and mediocre and something we couldn't -- It wasn't worth the amount of effort we would need to invest in making that work well. It just didn't seem worth it. And so we made the decision to -- And I think this is the way thoughtbot works like we've got to make intentional decisions in a lot of things that we do and half measures don't really satisfy us over the long-term. And so there was this feeling back then of we either need to decide to go completely remote, or we need to all be in person. And because we work locally with clients, that pushed us in the direction of well, we really like working with local clients face-to-face. We like how that feels, and it feels like something that's going to be enjoyable and fulfilling, and sustainable over the long term. So let's commit to that. And I think that that's one of the reasons why we've been successful in this transition is because, at the same time, we no longer had the client constraints of clients asking us to be in person with them or wanting to work with them in person, that was just completely off the table. \n\nLINDSEY: That's interesting. I think I hadn't really fully thought about that element which was need or perceived need from the client to be side-by-side with us. \n\nCHAD: Yeah. Once that was off the table, it allowed us to be freed up to make an independent decision, probably more confident in that decision because going through a period where we could show clients that it could work, I'm more confident now that when clients can be in person again, that they will be more open to working with us remotely. And I'm sure some portion of them won't be, but we'll find other clients in that time period. [laughter] \n\nLINDSEY: I think another thing that helped us in that transition was we weren't fully remote, but we were remote in a lot of regards. So we had six different studios around the world who collaborated together, worked on the same projects and the same teams. And we had a really good starting point for how we collaborated online, whether that's in actual video meetings or doing asynchronous work or project management all the way through to client work. Not everyone was in the city of the client that they were collaborating with. \n\nCHAD: Yeah. And all of the corporate team, the operations, marketing, all that stuff was already really a distributed team. It was primarily the design and development that fell back on being in person the most often. \n\nLINDSEY: And I would say we also had a pretty flexible work from home policy too. So if folks felt like they were going to be more productive from home a certain day or were having a delivery or whatever those life things are, we trust that they know what's best for them and best for the client and allow folks to make decisions about where they're working. \n\nCHAD: The way that we worded it before was that temporary remote working was always okay. And that could be I'm going somewhere for two months; even that was okay. And the opposite of that is what we said wasn't okay, which wasn’t permanently remote. And the big difference now is that we said permanently remote is okay. And walking back through the transition, this was something that has been an ongoing conversation at thoughtbot for a while. It was pretty early on in the pandemic that we said that people needed to start to move out of the places that we had studios. And I think that that was the first important step that we took as a company to make sure that we were supporting everybody in what they needed to do for life reasons saying, “If you need to move outside of a place where you would normally be based, do it. We'll continue to support that.” And then about 20 people, [laughs] a little less than 100 moved over the course of the next six months or so. And once that happened, that's a pretty significant portion of the team no longer being based where we have offices, and that sort of sealed the deal. \n\nLINDSEY: I didn't know that number. \n\nCHAD: I think it's less than 20. I think it's like 17 or something like that. \n\nLINDSEY: So it probably works out to about 20% moved to where there weren't offices. And do you have an idea how far spread out everyone is now? \n\nCHAD: I think most people who moved significantly moved to be closer to family or back where they were originally from. I think that was the driving factor. So it's places like Texas, different parts of Texas, Arizona, that kind of thing. And then people bought houses to get out of the city and that kind of thing as well, particularly New York City was -- I think a lot of the people in New York City are the ones who moved as well. \n\nLINDSEY: So, how would you describe our remote structure now? \n\nCHAD: I think there are a couple of important things like, we're specifically calling it work from anywhere, not work from home. Obviously, we all need to be in our homes now, but long-term, there's no reason why if the home isn't comfortable for somebody that they will work somewhere else, and anywhere also means geography. And we're not even completely shutting the door on eventually having small co-working spaces or small offices where people can get together and work in person. It's just not what we have right now and not what we're specifically planning on in the short term. So I think that's the base level when I think about the important parts of the structure is what are we actually saying, or what are we actually doing? \n\nAnd then the next important aspect we took into account was okay; one of the things that influenced the way that we were working before, which was a local team working with primarily other people in your office was it's pretty annoying, and it does affect productivity to be waiting significantly across time zones for people that you're supposed to be collaborating with. And so we ended up splitting the company by time zone into what we’re calling Launch Pad 1 and Launch Pad 2. And Launch Pad 1 is all of the Americas, and Launch Pad 2 two is Europe, Middle East, and Africa. It's interesting because that's actually only about three maybe four times zones different at the extremes. All of the Americas, when you do it out, it's a lot of time zones. It's ten timezones, but the reality is we don't have anybody in Hawaii or Alaska yet, so we're okay with that.[chuckles] But it's something that may need to be revisited in the future if we really start to hire people remotely in those extremes of the time zone. \n\nLINDSEY: So the geographies are really time zone-based, which is an interesting note. And then I'm sure some folks are also interested in logistics, especially now that you're heading up operations. What does that mean, or what are the big hurdles when you do have people spread across countries, let alone states? \n\nCHAD: So let's break it down in terms of employment stuff, and then we'll talk about operations like how we run things. We're not leading the charge in this. Other companies have done it before. And so we're taking a lot of cues from companies like GitLab and Buffer about how they do things. We've had international employees for a little while off, and on or international team members, I should say. And what we've historically leaned on for that is having them as independent contractors. And it's pretty common for them to create their own company that they're then using, and they're working within, and they're paying local taxes, and they're invoicing us for the time. And in a lot of countries, their laws are conducive to that. But strictly speaking, it's not okay to do that in every country. And if you were to get audited and someone were to look at the relationship you have with that person and their laws are similar to the U.S., they might declare that person an employee, and you're responsible for the taxes and everything, not them. \n\nOperating at the size we are, to be perfectly honest, at the size, we are with a handful of people, it’s a gray area. Like, some places it's okay, some places it's not quite okay, but it's only a handful of people and everything. You can get away with that without doing a lot of research into each specific country, whether it's okay or not, particularly if you make it the responsibility of the people, and you set up contractor agreements, and you set things up that way. So that's a pretty common way of operating. But as you start to grow and formalize it more and the numbers of people that you're working with as international contractors increases, the pressure is going to mount to say, “We have to get out of this gray area; otherwise, some country or someone could get in trouble,” not even us, but potentially the team member. If they were to get audited and it's not quite up to snuff, they could be held for some employment taxes or something like that. So we want to avoid that. We don't want to create a burden on people. And so there's really two ways of going about it; one is to create local entities in each of the countries where you want to hire somebody. So you create your own local company. That company employs them and pays the local taxes and employment taxes, and all that stuff and everything is fully set up and official, and we've done that before. We did that in Sweden when we had the studio in Stockholm, and that's how we work in the UK. \n\nThe overhead of doing that is really high, especially --It’s okay when we were in Sweden and the UK and the U.S. But as we look ahead and we say, “We're going to have ten then maybe 20 in different countries,” the overhead of that is really high. So the alternative is to work with a company that does that for you. So there are companies they're called PEOs professional employment organizations or international PEOs. And what they do is they create companies in all of the countries that they want to operate in, and then they employ the people as real full employees there. And they do all the books, and they pay all the taxes and everything. And they make sure that everything is done correctly for each individual country. And then they invoice you for the employee's salary, the taxes, and then an administration fee. And it's typically on the order of $250 to $600 a month per person. And so that's the direction we're going to go in as we expand this and we do it. That's the direction we'll go in because we've been through what it's like to create that overhead of the individual entities in each country. \n\nAnd it might make sense if we were saying we're going to open an office or hire significantly in this one country and build a whole team of 20 people in one country, but that's not what we were planning on doing. We may only have one or two people in each of the countries that we end up hiring someone in. So it doesn't make sense to have that overhead. And there are a few different companies out there, and not to plug them, we're not using them yet, but the interesting one that's on my radar is remote.com which was started by the person at GitLab that did this all for them and learned a ton about it and then left GitLab and started remote.com as a way to make that more accessible and modern for other companies. A lot of the other companies that do this tend to be very large, and they've been around for a long time, which typically means things aren't really done online so much; it's a lot of paper. And remote.com it's a website you sign up for. You could just enter the people in, and things happen automatically. And so that's why that's on my radar. \n\nLINDSEY: They're probably getting a lot of business these days. \n\nCHAD: Yes. And they have a lot of countries that they're expanding to over the next year or so. \n\nLINDSEY: How many countries do we have people in now? \n\nCHAD: That's a good question. I don't know [laughs] United States, UK, and Uruguay right now. I think those are the only ones. But we have two people who are moving, one to Canada, one to Austria. So those are the next two that are on the horizon. And we're actively hiring, so we just opened a bunch of positions. And I know that a lot of people applying to those positions are from places like Brazil, other places in South and Latin America, and potentially Canada as well. \n\nLINDSEY: Cool. Oh, we also got some great audience questions for this episode, so thanks to everyone who submitted. One of the questions was, when will you start hiring Canadians? \n\nCHAD: We're doing it now. [chuckles] All the positions on thoughtbot are at thoughtbot.com/jobs. They're all listed as remotely. They're segmented by Americas versus Launch Pad 2, which is Europe, Middle East, and Africa. \n\nLINDSEY: So, continuing on the hiring conversation, obviously, the hiring process itself has to be modified for the remote life. I'm not personally currently hiring, but I see the activity. And I think it seems like right now we've got a good handle on it but are also in the process of figuring out what works best and how to optimize it. Because we were on a hiring freeze for a while, and now it's opening back up, and we're trying to figure out how -- Honestly, it seems like the biggest question is how do we replicate that in-office cultural experience, social experience in the online format? \n\nCHAD: Yeah. Up until the office visit portion, the majority of our hiring process was already remote. So the non-technical interview was primarily done remotely. The technical interview was primarily done remotely. But at the final stage of that process, we would bring people into the office for the full day to pair with one person in the morning for developers, pair with another person in the afternoon, have lunch with the team. For designers, it was getting a design challenge and working with the team throughout the course of the day in a conference room. And so replicating both the working together aspects and the social aspects of that office visit day is important to us, and that's where the tricky part has been. The working together part is the easier part of it, I think we found because we're all working remotely anyway. So we just replicate that; it’s pairing remotely, and it's doing the design challenge in collaboration remotely. It's the social aspects that are harder. And part of it is is we're not necessarily getting everybody together on a regular basis every day and so creating a time for everybody to come together just because we have a candidate visiting and do something that's not artificial, together, was a little bit tricky to find. \n\nLINDSEY: Everyone act natural and social at 2:00 p.m. [chuckles] \n\nCHAD: Right. Go. [chuckles] And then to insert someone into that mix who doesn't know anybody on the call and is interviewing, it's a high level of awkwardness for the candidate as well. So what we've found has worked best is to find something that we are doing already and piggyback on top of that. So in the case of the UK, they were already getting together where everyone shares something that they're working on. They were already doing that on a regular basis. Or someone would say, “Let's have a discussion about this,” we were already doing that. So just making sure that that gets scheduled for when there is going to be a candidate and then prepping them and asking them to prepare something to share as well. \n\nAnd then, when it came time to do a different team, I encouraged them, “Don't just do what they're doing because they were already doing this. If you try to do it, and it’s something you're not doing already, it might turn out to be even more awkward. Try to find something that you're doing already and piggyback off of that.” And some teams were brand new, and they didn't have anything that they were doing already. And so that's the one thing we talked about in the last episode. But at the same time as going remote, we also, instead of being small teams based on geography, we reorganized to be based on the kinds of projects that we work on. And so Boost, for example, was an entirely new team of people that didn't necessarily have those norms and those regular events happening. And so they needed to create something that they could use not only to bring the team together but that that hiring process could piggyback on for that final stage. \n\nI think mostly it's gone well. I think everyone knows that it's a little awkward, so I think everybody gives it the benefit of the doubt. I couldn't imagine...well, I guess I can imagine it. But I wouldn't necessarily want to arrive at a standpoint where we start hiring people without the opportunity for the whole team that they're going to be working with to get to know them a little bit but also to provide their feedback but also for the candidate. When you join a new company, you want to know what it's like to work there. You want to know that you want to work with the people. You want to flush out any red flags. And I don't think we have any red flags. And so I'd rather that be out there and that kind of thing so that people can experience as much as possible what it's really going to be like to work at thoughtbot and who you're going to be working with. \n\nLINDSEY: So we have another audience question, and you can let me know if you actually want to answer this or not. How will you handle compensation? Will it be the same for everyone across the globe or country-specific, et cetera? \n\nCHAD: I can totally answer this. \n\nLINDSEY: You want to get into it? Let's do it. \n\nCHAD: I realize I'm answering in long-winded ways, but I think the context is important in these things. So the way things worked historically at thoughtbot was based on your geography, but that made sense because the clients were based on geography, and each of the locations was working with local clients. And so, the economy of the different studios was entirely different from one another. So the studio in Raleigh-Durham worked with clients there primarily, and that is very different than Manhattan, New York, and what people understand a local team costs and what they're willing to pay and that kind of thing. And so there was a natural one-to-one correlation between the studio you worked in and the economics of how the business of that studio worked. And so the salaries and the economics of the whole expenses of the studio were based on that local thing. And so that's the way it worked previously. And then we would always do reviews within that group of people to make sure that there was fairness in pay from an equity perspective between people with the same level of experience and not for other factors like gender or anything like that, so equity in pay is really important to us. And so every compensation thing goes through that review process. And then we do an annual salary review every year where we re-review everything for equity, and we review an increase for economics and performance, and that happens in April. So when we went remote, we didn't change anything. And historically, what would have happened if you lived in one place and you moved to another studio with different economics? Your salary might change because you needed to be sustainable within that studio. And you would find that out in advance, and it would factor into whether you want to do it or not. \n\nSo when we went remote, and people started moving, what we did was we reminded people that traditionally, that might have an impact, but you're not moving to where a new studio is. We don't know how things are going to be in the future, just that we'll do the salary review in April. So coming up to the salary review, we started looking at the way that we were going to do it. We went through a little bit of a change when we originally started the process; like I said, we're taking cues from other people, and one of those companies is GitLab. And what GitLab talks about is cost of market. And so that's what we had planned on doing so rather than paying people cost of living, cost of market is the idea of what would your competitive salary be based on where you live? And that includes both remote and local employers, what you can command, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's the same everywhere based on where you live. And so that was the direction we started to go down. It's not where we ultimately ended up. Ultimately, we ended up creating within the United States, based on the position you have, a salary range, and that is the same salary range across the whole United States with a couple of exceptions, and I’ll mention what that is. So if you're a developer, or if you're a senior developer, or you're a team lead across the whole United States, you'll fall within this range based on your performance, and I'm happy with that. We were never philosophically opposed to doing that. And I'm pretty cool with the fact that we got there in the course of doing the review. \n\nSo the exception to that is we financially couldn't set the level of that salary at a city like San Francisco or New York. If we were bringing everybody up to that level at the company, it would be very difficult for us to be profitable. And so we set the tiers based on the next tier down of cities in the U.S., so it's cities like Boston and Austin are where we took the bands from. We have team members who live in San Francisco and New York, and that, strictly speaking, would have meant a salary reduction for the people who live there. And we didn't want to create hardship on people that didn't know that we were going to do that. When they decided where to live, it would create hardship on people. And so, we took a look at New York and San Francisco, and we created another tier that is based on those markets. \n\nAnd then, between those two tiers, what we're looking at is, are these salaries based on the cost of living equitable? So does someone who was working at thoughtbot in New York effectively earn the same amount of money as someone on the other tier who's living anywhere else? And if you actually look at that, the interesting thing is there are more people at thoughtbot now who are at the main tier who live in even lower cost of living places. And so they're actually coming out sort of it's more favorable, which is I'd rather be in that position because I think over time, more and more people will become more and more distributed, and people will live in different places with different cost structures. Any follow-up questions or thoughts on all that? \n\nLINDSEY: For me, I'm glad I didn't have to decide it. [laughter] It's really complicated because I see there's logic to different approaches. Nothing is an obviously bad decision. The reality is we do live in a world where economics of location vary greatly. But at the same time, what does the future of work and equity look like? \n\nCHAD: Everything I just said was U.S.-centric. So we actually don't have a set thing that we're doing for countries outside of the U.S. We're going to evolve that based on what we learn over the next few months as we hire people. There are really two tracks or two options in front of us: the first one is to establish country rates, and the second one is to establish an outside of the U.S. tier like that is maybe the same or slightly below that other tier that we're already talking about, the main tier that everybody in the U.S. is on. And so we'll see what we learn over the course of that. The reason why we probably won't end up there is because Canada is very different than Uruguay, for example. And so establishing one rate that works everywhere -- There are two important things that are our guiding principles here; the first is people should be paid equitably and fairly for the work that they do. At thoughtbot, there's not really an ulterior motive. We don't have outside investors. We're just people who work at the company trying to create the company that works on our behalf as people who work here. That's the primary motivating factor is to be fair and to pay people as much as we can, and then the second thing is while being sustainable. So we also don't have outside investors. We don't have a huge bank role, and we have to operate profitably. We’re not a VC-backed company that doesn't need to operate profitably. And so that's the second guiding philosophy is we've got to make sure that we operate profitably. And if we create a tier, creating a tier that works to meet both of those things, pay people fairly and be sustainable, we've got to set those numbers right because it's pretty easy to hire a bunch of people in an expensive place and set the tier too high and then not be sustainable. So we'll learn over the next six months. \n\nLINDSEY: So switching gears a little bit, we got a few questions from folks who are curious how we are actually doing the remote collaboration with clients because that's obviously something core to what we do that we're really passionate about and I think especially on the design side too. So someone's like, “How, are you doing things you used to do on whiteboards or on the walls?” The sprint comes to mind with the sticky notes all over the different walls. \n\nCHAD: Well, I've been talking a lot. Do you want to start this one? [chuckles] \n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. It's funny; I’ve said this before on the show, but I feel like going remote has also almost made our meetings more equitable. We had a lot of especially corporate folks in the Boston team who would sit in a room, and then we'd have a few folks from our different studios calling in remotely. And there is a disadvantage to that, not being in the room and not being able to hear every comment or the conversation after the call has ended. And I feel like this spills over to client work as well, where remote meetings can actually be even more productive and collaborative in a lot of ways. So that's one component. But as far as the actual tools that we're using, I would say right now we're using online whiteboarding, sprint-mimicking tools a lot. So Miro is definitely getting a lot of use. \n\nCHAD: I think that's the one we're using the most. New things come along, and people experiment with them and everything, but the default at this point is Miro. \n\nLINDSEY: They even have the sticky note feature, which for some reason, just works. It's the same thing as having a little box and writing in it, but it feels like a sticky note. So it evokes the feeling of the sprint. So we do use that a ton for brainstorming and collaboration internally and with clients. \n\nCHAD: And there are actually some things that are obviously being in person in the room with people is really nice, especially in those early days of a product where it's a really critical portion of the time. But there are some things about being remote equitable inclusive is one. Another is when you're in person, you have limited space. And Miro whiteboard is an infinite canvas, and so you don't run out of space. And when you flex to fill your whole tool and take advantage of that, it makes it easier. And the other I would say is -- and Jaclyn and Kyle just talked about this on the last episode of Tentative, our design podcast, which if people don't know about, they should check out. And talking about how when we're in person and one person is at the whiteboard, they have a marker, and they're working on a sketch, bringing together the wireframe and the storyboard. They’re the one with the marker, and they're the one who's doing everything, and not only is that not necessarily -- They're the funnel of all the ideas, but it's a lot of work for them as well, and it's not as collaborative as it otherwise could be. But when everyone is remote, and everyone's on the live whiteboard, people can share the work in a way that is better and more efficient when it comes to those wireframes. And you can give people a task because everyone can have their own portion of the board. And you can say, “Can you do this for me?” And then two people can go off and do that on one portion of the board, and then you can drag it over when they're done, that kind of thing. And it makes the sprints more efficient. \n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, like organizing the Post-it notes. I've seen that done a lot, asking for help. Grouping common themes together can make things move really quickly. \n\nCHAD: We were already using Figma on the majority of our products. And for those who don't know, Figma is a collaborative design tool so think Photoshop or Sketch, a totally online version of that that's more like working on a Google Doc with people together. And now Figma has prototyping tools built in. So it's pretty powerful in a very online collaborative way to be able to create the designs and then turn them immediately into prototypes and to do that directly with clients and with other team members all in the same document. This is one of those things that is actually a little bit harder to do. If you're all in the same room with someone, you're inclined to -- I guess you could all open your computers and work in the same document together, but I feel like that doesn't happen as much instead one person's driving, so it actually makes things more productive to work that way. \n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. Miro and Figma both have that kind of Google-ish feature of you see everyone who's in the doc, and you can actually see their cursor moving around in real-time as you're both working on it. And you can leave comments on all the kinds of collaboration features that you'd want with those kinds of things. And then on the development side, we also obviously put a lot of value on pairing on work. So I know even before Covid, we were experimenting a lot with different ways to do development pairing, whether it was in Hangouts or Slack video. And I believe we're currently using Tuple a lot for that. \n\nCHAD: Yeah. Tuple was created by a previous host of this podcast, Ben Orenstein, thoughtbot alum. \n\nLINDSEY: It’s how all the greats get started. \n\nCHAD: Yeah. But unfortunately, it's Mac only. And so we do have some team members who are not on Macs; they're on Linux. So we can't totally rely 100% on Tuple. And so there are some other things we use like USE Together, and people who use Team Macs will share that way. \n\nLINDSEY: And then I think one of the last things about remote work that is worth chatting about today is the team culture. We did have a very in-office culture, especially because folks are working on different client projects. And one of the things they love most about thoughtbot is the other thoughtboters and getting to see each other and maybe do investment projects together or going to the summit. So we had another question about this too, which is how do you foster that culture? How do you keep it going when no one's in-person anymore? \n\nCHAD: I think this is one of the areas where we have the most iteration and learning to do because the work stuff we were already doing a lot of it. And the project stuff is easier to judge, too. So did the project work? Did we ship on time? Was the design great? It's a lot easier to get immediate feedback on whether what we're doing is working or not. And with the culture things, the ramifications of doing it badly might not manifest for months. \n\nLINDSEY: We also need the client work to get money. \n\nCHAD: Right. [chuckles] \n\nLINDSEY: We need the money in order to work on the culture. [laughs] \n\nCHAD: Right. And the fact that we've been doing this in the pandemic it's a double-edged sword. I think it gives us a little bit of leeway to say, “Things are not normal now. And so we can't do this or we can't do that, and that is just what it is. And so we're just going to have to make the best of it.” The other side of that, though, is that it's been a very difficult time for a lot of people, not only just because of the pandemic. This last year has been a really difficult year for a lot of people. And so, yes, we get a little bit of runway to figure things out because it's such a unique situation. At the same time, it's important more than ever to figure out how to support people and have things be good and fulfilling and sustainable for people and to have a culture that thrives, not necessarily just gets by. I think that is what has made this last year challenging is figuring that out. \n\nSo some specifics, we traditionally get together as an entire company once a year. So we brought that all online last year, and we combined it with our end-of-the-year parties that we usually do, which are also a hackathon where we take time off of client work, and we work on projects together. So we combined those two things in December and had a two-day all-remote event with murder mysteries hosted by professional companies to trivia and then underlying with the hackathon. And I think people really enjoyed it. It was one of those things where I think people were -- there was a pocket of people who were really skeptical about it. “I'm tired of being on video calls all day,” and all that stuff. “I'm not feeling up for it,” like all these sorts of things. And it was like, “Trust me, just show up, just do it.” And I think what we heard was pretty universal that people were surprised at how enjoyable it was. And so this year we're doing three of those, two one-day ones and one two-day one. And that'll be in May and then the summer, and then the winter. Implicit in that is we're not expecting to be able to get back in person together in any large group for all of this year. \n\nLINDSEY: But you do anticipate in-person summit return. \n\nCHAD: Yeah, definitely. I think it's more important than ever. And I think what we'll also see and encourage is team in-person get-togethers where it's not just the whole company, but you're on a project team or the marketing team or rocket fuel, as it likes to be called now, and get together. Yes, it's fine. Get together in this place. And that's one of the things that -- We spend a lot of money on very expensive offices in Boston and New York, and in the past, San Francisco, and Austin, London. It’s over $500,000 a year in office expenses between all those places that we still have the expense now. But once we're able to eliminate that expense, it's going to free up a lot of money to be put towards getting those teams together in person and do other things. \n\nLINDSEY: That was the other thing I was going to say, and you noted this about the UK team is that there's also a lot of team-specific activities where team leadership for Boost, Ignite, Lift Off, Mission control or with the geography-based ones too are figuring out what kind of social stuff or testing out different ideas like the show and tells or doing quiz time. I know there's a pocket of folks who jump in the lounge, which came out of the remote summit, the lounge during lunchtime or after work on Friday, and just trying out different things. \n\nCHAD: And Stephanie, who was the office manager in New York, has moved into an operations manager role, so company-wide. And a big part of what she is doing is figuring out things to try. And I think some things will succeed and some things won't, whether it's organizing games or the thing that just happened on Friday was people opting in to be paired for a 15-minute conversation with somebody else in the company, things like that. We're trying a lot of different things and seeing what works, what doesn't online. She created an online art gallery where people who are doing art can post it, that kind of thing. So we'll learn. \n\nLINDSEY: We'll learn, and then we'll most likely share it with you, so stay tuned for that. You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm. \n\nCHAD: If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel. \n\nLINDSEY: And me on Twitter @Lindsey3D. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot. \n\nCHAD: Thanks for listening, and see you next time. \n\nLINDSEY: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. \n\nThoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. ","content_html":"Chad and Lindsey talk about how the pandemic has changed "normal" remote work and how thoughtbot has dealt with the transition from being majoritively in-person to fully remote, plus the impact it's had on both employees and clients.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel.
\n\nLINDSEY: And I’m your other host, Lindsey Christensen. We’re back. Chad, I've only seen you pixelated for over a year now.
\n\nCHAD: I know.
\n\nLINDSEY: Can you believe it?
\n\nCHAD: It's hard to believe. I haven't seen anybody that I work with [laughs] not pixelated for over a year now.
\n\nLINDSEY: It seems normal now.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, it seems normal, except when you think about it, and you realize how long it's been. We're going to talk about remote work today, and I think that that's something to keep in mind, which is what we're doing now isn't normal remote work. We can make the best of it and that kind of thing, but it's obviously different than normal remote work when you can actually have a social life outside of work and meet people and get together in person to kick off new projects or to be like, “Let's have a retreat or whatever.” So right off the top, we should acknowledge that we're not in this normal period, and this isn't necessarily normal remote work.
\n\nLINDSEY: Right. Which is a good thing, I guess, or the optimist in me says remote work can be way better than it is right now because this is quarantining work. [chuckles]
\n\nCHAD: Right. So for those who don't know, thoughtbot made the decision to go remote-first work from anywhere. And we touched on it in the previous two episodes a little bit, and that's what we're going to be talking about today. And I think that that's one of the things that made us confident in the direction was that things aren't great now, but they're certainly not bad. And the majority of the team felt good about what was happening now, even given all of the downsides. It gave us the confidence to look ahead and say, “Can this be even better, and will it be okay?” And I think that's part of what gave us the confidence to move forward.
\n\nLINDSEY: I saw this interesting stat, and this was actually from a while ago, last July 2020. Gartner did a survey of company leaders, and 80% plan to allow employees to work remotely, at least part of the time after the pandemic, and 47% will allow people to work full-time from home, which is even a bigger percentage than I anticipated. But I think it speaks to the major change that everyone's seeing. We've all learned that remote work can work. I saw another stat that was, I think, no companies are reporting a reduction in productivity because of remote work, and in 27% of cases, companies feel like they're being even more productive.
\n\nCHAD: We didn't not do this before because we didn't think it would be productive on a day-to-day basis or that we didn't believe in the ability to work remotely working. There were a couple of important points that caused us to choose the direction we did; the first one being we went through a period of time where we were a hybrid remote or about half the team was remote, and the other half was working in an office in Boston. And it felt hard and mediocre and something we couldn't -- It wasn't worth the amount of effort we would need to invest in making that work well. It just didn't seem worth it. And so we made the decision to -- And I think this is the way thoughtbot works like we've got to make intentional decisions in a lot of things that we do and half measures don't really satisfy us over the long-term. And so there was this feeling back then of we either need to decide to go completely remote, or we need to all be in person. And because we work locally with clients, that pushed us in the direction of well, we really like working with local clients face-to-face. We like how that feels, and it feels like something that's going to be enjoyable and fulfilling, and sustainable over the long term. So let's commit to that. And I think that that's one of the reasons why we've been successful in this transition is because, at the same time, we no longer had the client constraints of clients asking us to be in person with them or wanting to work with them in person, that was just completely off the table.
\n\nLINDSEY: That's interesting. I think I hadn't really fully thought about that element which was need or perceived need from the client to be side-by-side with us.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. Once that was off the table, it allowed us to be freed up to make an independent decision, probably more confident in that decision because going through a period where we could show clients that it could work, I'm more confident now that when clients can be in person again, that they will be more open to working with us remotely. And I'm sure some portion of them won't be, but we'll find other clients in that time period. [laughter]
\n\nLINDSEY: I think another thing that helped us in that transition was we weren't fully remote, but we were remote in a lot of regards. So we had six different studios around the world who collaborated together, worked on the same projects and the same teams. And we had a really good starting point for how we collaborated online, whether that's in actual video meetings or doing asynchronous work or project management all the way through to client work. Not everyone was in the city of the client that they were collaborating with.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. And all of the corporate team, the operations, marketing, all that stuff was already really a distributed team. It was primarily the design and development that fell back on being in person the most often.
\n\nLINDSEY: And I would say we also had a pretty flexible work from home policy too. So if folks felt like they were going to be more productive from home a certain day or were having a delivery or whatever those life things are, we trust that they know what's best for them and best for the client and allow folks to make decisions about where they're working.
\n\nCHAD: The way that we worded it before was that temporary remote working was always okay. And that could be I'm going somewhere for two months; even that was okay. And the opposite of that is what we said wasn't okay, which wasn’t permanently remote. And the big difference now is that we said permanently remote is okay. And walking back through the transition, this was something that has been an ongoing conversation at thoughtbot for a while. It was pretty early on in the pandemic that we said that people needed to start to move out of the places that we had studios. And I think that that was the first important step that we took as a company to make sure that we were supporting everybody in what they needed to do for life reasons saying, “If you need to move outside of a place where you would normally be based, do it. We'll continue to support that.” And then about 20 people, [laughs] a little less than 100 moved over the course of the next six months or so. And once that happened, that's a pretty significant portion of the team no longer being based where we have offices, and that sort of sealed the deal.
\n\nLINDSEY: I didn't know that number.
\n\nCHAD: I think it's less than 20. I think it's like 17 or something like that.
\n\nLINDSEY: So it probably works out to about 20% moved to where there weren't offices. And do you have an idea how far spread out everyone is now?
\n\nCHAD: I think most people who moved significantly moved to be closer to family or back where they were originally from. I think that was the driving factor. So it's places like Texas, different parts of Texas, Arizona, that kind of thing. And then people bought houses to get out of the city and that kind of thing as well, particularly New York City was -- I think a lot of the people in New York City are the ones who moved as well.
\n\nLINDSEY: So, how would you describe our remote structure now?
\n\nCHAD: I think there are a couple of important things like, we're specifically calling it work from anywhere, not work from home. Obviously, we all need to be in our homes now, but long-term, there's no reason why if the home isn't comfortable for somebody that they will work somewhere else, and anywhere also means geography. And we're not even completely shutting the door on eventually having small co-working spaces or small offices where people can get together and work in person. It's just not what we have right now and not what we're specifically planning on in the short term. So I think that's the base level when I think about the important parts of the structure is what are we actually saying, or what are we actually doing?
\n\nAnd then the next important aspect we took into account was okay; one of the things that influenced the way that we were working before, which was a local team working with primarily other people in your office was it's pretty annoying, and it does affect productivity to be waiting significantly across time zones for people that you're supposed to be collaborating with. And so we ended up splitting the company by time zone into what we’re calling Launch Pad 1 and Launch Pad 2. And Launch Pad 1 is all of the Americas, and Launch Pad 2 two is Europe, Middle East, and Africa. It's interesting because that's actually only about three maybe four times zones different at the extremes. All of the Americas, when you do it out, it's a lot of time zones. It's ten timezones, but the reality is we don't have anybody in Hawaii or Alaska yet, so we're okay with that.[chuckles] But it's something that may need to be revisited in the future if we really start to hire people remotely in those extremes of the time zone.
\n\nLINDSEY: So the geographies are really time zone-based, which is an interesting note. And then I'm sure some folks are also interested in logistics, especially now that you're heading up operations. What does that mean, or what are the big hurdles when you do have people spread across countries, let alone states?
\n\nCHAD: So let's break it down in terms of employment stuff, and then we'll talk about operations like how we run things. We're not leading the charge in this. Other companies have done it before. And so we're taking a lot of cues from companies like GitLab and Buffer about how they do things. We've had international employees for a little while off, and on or international team members, I should say. And what we've historically leaned on for that is having them as independent contractors. And it's pretty common for them to create their own company that they're then using, and they're working within, and they're paying local taxes, and they're invoicing us for the time. And in a lot of countries, their laws are conducive to that. But strictly speaking, it's not okay to do that in every country. And if you were to get audited and someone were to look at the relationship you have with that person and their laws are similar to the U.S., they might declare that person an employee, and you're responsible for the taxes and everything, not them.
\n\nOperating at the size we are, to be perfectly honest, at the size, we are with a handful of people, it’s a gray area. Like, some places it's okay, some places it's not quite okay, but it's only a handful of people and everything. You can get away with that without doing a lot of research into each specific country, whether it's okay or not, particularly if you make it the responsibility of the people, and you set up contractor agreements, and you set things up that way. So that's a pretty common way of operating. But as you start to grow and formalize it more and the numbers of people that you're working with as international contractors increases, the pressure is going to mount to say, “We have to get out of this gray area; otherwise, some country or someone could get in trouble,” not even us, but potentially the team member. If they were to get audited and it's not quite up to snuff, they could be held for some employment taxes or something like that. So we want to avoid that. We don't want to create a burden on people. And so there's really two ways of going about it; one is to create local entities in each of the countries where you want to hire somebody. So you create your own local company. That company employs them and pays the local taxes and employment taxes, and all that stuff and everything is fully set up and official, and we've done that before. We did that in Sweden when we had the studio in Stockholm, and that's how we work in the UK.
\n\nThe overhead of doing that is really high, especially --It’s okay when we were in Sweden and the UK and the U.S. But as we look ahead and we say, “We're going to have ten then maybe 20 in different countries,” the overhead of that is really high. So the alternative is to work with a company that does that for you. So there are companies they're called PEOs professional employment organizations or international PEOs. And what they do is they create companies in all of the countries that they want to operate in, and then they employ the people as real full employees there. And they do all the books, and they pay all the taxes and everything. And they make sure that everything is done correctly for each individual country. And then they invoice you for the employee's salary, the taxes, and then an administration fee. And it's typically on the order of $250 to $600 a month per person. And so that's the direction we're going to go in as we expand this and we do it. That's the direction we'll go in because we've been through what it's like to create that overhead of the individual entities in each country.
\n\nAnd it might make sense if we were saying we're going to open an office or hire significantly in this one country and build a whole team of 20 people in one country, but that's not what we were planning on doing. We may only have one or two people in each of the countries that we end up hiring someone in. So it doesn't make sense to have that overhead. And there are a few different companies out there, and not to plug them, we're not using them yet, but the interesting one that's on my radar is remote.com which was started by the person at GitLab that did this all for them and learned a ton about it and then left GitLab and started remote.com as a way to make that more accessible and modern for other companies. A lot of the other companies that do this tend to be very large, and they've been around for a long time, which typically means things aren't really done online so much; it's a lot of paper. And remote.com it's a website you sign up for. You could just enter the people in, and things happen automatically. And so that's why that's on my radar.
\n\nLINDSEY: They're probably getting a lot of business these days.
\n\nCHAD: Yes. And they have a lot of countries that they're expanding to over the next year or so.
\n\nLINDSEY: How many countries do we have people in now?
\n\nCHAD: That's a good question. I don't know [laughs] United States, UK, and Uruguay right now. I think those are the only ones. But we have two people who are moving, one to Canada, one to Austria. So those are the next two that are on the horizon. And we're actively hiring, so we just opened a bunch of positions. And I know that a lot of people applying to those positions are from places like Brazil, other places in South and Latin America, and potentially Canada as well.
\n\nLINDSEY: Cool. Oh, we also got some great audience questions for this episode, so thanks to everyone who submitted. One of the questions was, when will you start hiring Canadians?
\n\nCHAD: We're doing it now. [chuckles] All the positions on thoughtbot are at thoughtbot.com/jobs. They're all listed as remotely. They're segmented by Americas versus Launch Pad 2, which is Europe, Middle East, and Africa.
\n\nLINDSEY: So, continuing on the hiring conversation, obviously, the hiring process itself has to be modified for the remote life. I'm not personally currently hiring, but I see the activity. And I think it seems like right now we've got a good handle on it but are also in the process of figuring out what works best and how to optimize it. Because we were on a hiring freeze for a while, and now it's opening back up, and we're trying to figure out how -- Honestly, it seems like the biggest question is how do we replicate that in-office cultural experience, social experience in the online format?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. Up until the office visit portion, the majority of our hiring process was already remote. So the non-technical interview was primarily done remotely. The technical interview was primarily done remotely. But at the final stage of that process, we would bring people into the office for the full day to pair with one person in the morning for developers, pair with another person in the afternoon, have lunch with the team. For designers, it was getting a design challenge and working with the team throughout the course of the day in a conference room. And so replicating both the working together aspects and the social aspects of that office visit day is important to us, and that's where the tricky part has been. The working together part is the easier part of it, I think we found because we're all working remotely anyway. So we just replicate that; it’s pairing remotely, and it's doing the design challenge in collaboration remotely. It's the social aspects that are harder. And part of it is is we're not necessarily getting everybody together on a regular basis every day and so creating a time for everybody to come together just because we have a candidate visiting and do something that's not artificial, together, was a little bit tricky to find.
\n\nLINDSEY: Everyone act natural and social at 2:00 p.m. [chuckles]
\n\nCHAD: Right. Go. [chuckles] And then to insert someone into that mix who doesn't know anybody on the call and is interviewing, it's a high level of awkwardness for the candidate as well. So what we've found has worked best is to find something that we are doing already and piggyback on top of that. So in the case of the UK, they were already getting together where everyone shares something that they're working on. They were already doing that on a regular basis. Or someone would say, “Let's have a discussion about this,” we were already doing that. So just making sure that that gets scheduled for when there is going to be a candidate and then prepping them and asking them to prepare something to share as well.
\n\nAnd then, when it came time to do a different team, I encouraged them, “Don't just do what they're doing because they were already doing this. If you try to do it, and it’s something you're not doing already, it might turn out to be even more awkward. Try to find something that you're doing already and piggyback off of that.” And some teams were brand new, and they didn't have anything that they were doing already. And so that's the one thing we talked about in the last episode. But at the same time as going remote, we also, instead of being small teams based on geography, we reorganized to be based on the kinds of projects that we work on. And so Boost, for example, was an entirely new team of people that didn't necessarily have those norms and those regular events happening. And so they needed to create something that they could use not only to bring the team together but that that hiring process could piggyback on for that final stage.
\n\nI think mostly it's gone well. I think everyone knows that it's a little awkward, so I think everybody gives it the benefit of the doubt. I couldn't imagine...well, I guess I can imagine it. But I wouldn't necessarily want to arrive at a standpoint where we start hiring people without the opportunity for the whole team that they're going to be working with to get to know them a little bit but also to provide their feedback but also for the candidate. When you join a new company, you want to know what it's like to work there. You want to know that you want to work with the people. You want to flush out any red flags. And I don't think we have any red flags. And so I'd rather that be out there and that kind of thing so that people can experience as much as possible what it's really going to be like to work at thoughtbot and who you're going to be working with.
\n\nLINDSEY: So we have another audience question, and you can let me know if you actually want to answer this or not. How will you handle compensation? Will it be the same for everyone across the globe or country-specific, et cetera?
\n\nCHAD: I can totally answer this.
\n\nLINDSEY: You want to get into it? Let's do it.
\n\nCHAD: I realize I'm answering in long-winded ways, but I think the context is important in these things. So the way things worked historically at thoughtbot was based on your geography, but that made sense because the clients were based on geography, and each of the locations was working with local clients. And so, the economy of the different studios was entirely different from one another. So the studio in Raleigh-Durham worked with clients there primarily, and that is very different than Manhattan, New York, and what people understand a local team costs and what they're willing to pay and that kind of thing. And so there was a natural one-to-one correlation between the studio you worked in and the economics of how the business of that studio worked. And so the salaries and the economics of the whole expenses of the studio were based on that local thing. And so that's the way it worked previously. And then we would always do reviews within that group of people to make sure that there was fairness in pay from an equity perspective between people with the same level of experience and not for other factors like gender or anything like that, so equity in pay is really important to us. And so every compensation thing goes through that review process. And then we do an annual salary review every year where we re-review everything for equity, and we review an increase for economics and performance, and that happens in April. So when we went remote, we didn't change anything. And historically, what would have happened if you lived in one place and you moved to another studio with different economics? Your salary might change because you needed to be sustainable within that studio. And you would find that out in advance, and it would factor into whether you want to do it or not.
\n\nSo when we went remote, and people started moving, what we did was we reminded people that traditionally, that might have an impact, but you're not moving to where a new studio is. We don't know how things are going to be in the future, just that we'll do the salary review in April. So coming up to the salary review, we started looking at the way that we were going to do it. We went through a little bit of a change when we originally started the process; like I said, we're taking cues from other people, and one of those companies is GitLab. And what GitLab talks about is cost of market. And so that's what we had planned on doing so rather than paying people cost of living, cost of market is the idea of what would your competitive salary be based on where you live? And that includes both remote and local employers, what you can command, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's the same everywhere based on where you live. And so that was the direction we started to go down. It's not where we ultimately ended up. Ultimately, we ended up creating within the United States, based on the position you have, a salary range, and that is the same salary range across the whole United States with a couple of exceptions, and I’ll mention what that is. So if you're a developer, or if you're a senior developer, or you're a team lead across the whole United States, you'll fall within this range based on your performance, and I'm happy with that. We were never philosophically opposed to doing that. And I'm pretty cool with the fact that we got there in the course of doing the review.
\n\nSo the exception to that is we financially couldn't set the level of that salary at a city like San Francisco or New York. If we were bringing everybody up to that level at the company, it would be very difficult for us to be profitable. And so we set the tiers based on the next tier down of cities in the U.S., so it's cities like Boston and Austin are where we took the bands from. We have team members who live in San Francisco and New York, and that, strictly speaking, would have meant a salary reduction for the people who live there. And we didn't want to create hardship on people that didn't know that we were going to do that. When they decided where to live, it would create hardship on people. And so, we took a look at New York and San Francisco, and we created another tier that is based on those markets.
\n\nAnd then, between those two tiers, what we're looking at is, are these salaries based on the cost of living equitable? So does someone who was working at thoughtbot in New York effectively earn the same amount of money as someone on the other tier who's living anywhere else? And if you actually look at that, the interesting thing is there are more people at thoughtbot now who are at the main tier who live in even lower cost of living places. And so they're actually coming out sort of it's more favorable, which is I'd rather be in that position because I think over time, more and more people will become more and more distributed, and people will live in different places with different cost structures. Any follow-up questions or thoughts on all that?
\n\nLINDSEY: For me, I'm glad I didn't have to decide it. [laughter] It's really complicated because I see there's logic to different approaches. Nothing is an obviously bad decision. The reality is we do live in a world where economics of location vary greatly. But at the same time, what does the future of work and equity look like?
\n\nCHAD: Everything I just said was U.S.-centric. So we actually don't have a set thing that we're doing for countries outside of the U.S. We're going to evolve that based on what we learn over the next few months as we hire people. There are really two tracks or two options in front of us: the first one is to establish country rates, and the second one is to establish an outside of the U.S. tier like that is maybe the same or slightly below that other tier that we're already talking about, the main tier that everybody in the U.S. is on. And so we'll see what we learn over the course of that. The reason why we probably won't end up there is because Canada is very different than Uruguay, for example. And so establishing one rate that works everywhere -- There are two important things that are our guiding principles here; the first is people should be paid equitably and fairly for the work that they do. At thoughtbot, there's not really an ulterior motive. We don't have outside investors. We're just people who work at the company trying to create the company that works on our behalf as people who work here. That's the primary motivating factor is to be fair and to pay people as much as we can, and then the second thing is while being sustainable. So we also don't have outside investors. We don't have a huge bank role, and we have to operate profitably. We’re not a VC-backed company that doesn't need to operate profitably. And so that's the second guiding philosophy is we've got to make sure that we operate profitably. And if we create a tier, creating a tier that works to meet both of those things, pay people fairly and be sustainable, we've got to set those numbers right because it's pretty easy to hire a bunch of people in an expensive place and set the tier too high and then not be sustainable. So we'll learn over the next six months.
\n\nLINDSEY: So switching gears a little bit, we got a few questions from folks who are curious how we are actually doing the remote collaboration with clients because that's obviously something core to what we do that we're really passionate about and I think especially on the design side too. So someone's like, “How, are you doing things you used to do on whiteboards or on the walls?” The sprint comes to mind with the sticky notes all over the different walls.
\n\nCHAD: Well, I've been talking a lot. Do you want to start this one? [chuckles]
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. It's funny; I’ve said this before on the show, but I feel like going remote has also almost made our meetings more equitable. We had a lot of especially corporate folks in the Boston team who would sit in a room, and then we'd have a few folks from our different studios calling in remotely. And there is a disadvantage to that, not being in the room and not being able to hear every comment or the conversation after the call has ended. And I feel like this spills over to client work as well, where remote meetings can actually be even more productive and collaborative in a lot of ways. So that's one component. But as far as the actual tools that we're using, I would say right now we're using online whiteboarding, sprint-mimicking tools a lot. So Miro is definitely getting a lot of use.
\n\nCHAD: I think that's the one we're using the most. New things come along, and people experiment with them and everything, but the default at this point is Miro.
\n\nLINDSEY: They even have the sticky note feature, which for some reason, just works. It's the same thing as having a little box and writing in it, but it feels like a sticky note. So it evokes the feeling of the sprint. So we do use that a ton for brainstorming and collaboration internally and with clients.
\n\nCHAD: And there are actually some things that are obviously being in person in the room with people is really nice, especially in those early days of a product where it's a really critical portion of the time. But there are some things about being remote equitable inclusive is one. Another is when you're in person, you have limited space. And Miro whiteboard is an infinite canvas, and so you don't run out of space. And when you flex to fill your whole tool and take advantage of that, it makes it easier. And the other I would say is -- and Jaclyn and Kyle just talked about this on the last episode of Tentative, our design podcast, which if people don't know about, they should check out. And talking about how when we're in person and one person is at the whiteboard, they have a marker, and they're working on a sketch, bringing together the wireframe and the storyboard. They’re the one with the marker, and they're the one who's doing everything, and not only is that not necessarily -- They're the funnel of all the ideas, but it's a lot of work for them as well, and it's not as collaborative as it otherwise could be. But when everyone is remote, and everyone's on the live whiteboard, people can share the work in a way that is better and more efficient when it comes to those wireframes. And you can give people a task because everyone can have their own portion of the board. And you can say, “Can you do this for me?” And then two people can go off and do that on one portion of the board, and then you can drag it over when they're done, that kind of thing. And it makes the sprints more efficient.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, like organizing the Post-it notes. I've seen that done a lot, asking for help. Grouping common themes together can make things move really quickly.
\n\nCHAD: We were already using Figma on the majority of our products. And for those who don't know, Figma is a collaborative design tool so think Photoshop or Sketch, a totally online version of that that's more like working on a Google Doc with people together. And now Figma has prototyping tools built in. So it's pretty powerful in a very online collaborative way to be able to create the designs and then turn them immediately into prototypes and to do that directly with clients and with other team members all in the same document. This is one of those things that is actually a little bit harder to do. If you're all in the same room with someone, you're inclined to -- I guess you could all open your computers and work in the same document together, but I feel like that doesn't happen as much instead one person's driving, so it actually makes things more productive to work that way.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. Miro and Figma both have that kind of Google-ish feature of you see everyone who's in the doc, and you can actually see their cursor moving around in real-time as you're both working on it. And you can leave comments on all the kinds of collaboration features that you'd want with those kinds of things. And then on the development side, we also obviously put a lot of value on pairing on work. So I know even before Covid, we were experimenting a lot with different ways to do development pairing, whether it was in Hangouts or Slack video. And I believe we're currently using Tuple a lot for that.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. Tuple was created by a previous host of this podcast, Ben Orenstein, thoughtbot alum.
\n\nLINDSEY: It’s how all the greats get started.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. But unfortunately, it's Mac only. And so we do have some team members who are not on Macs; they're on Linux. So we can't totally rely 100% on Tuple. And so there are some other things we use like USE Together, and people who use Team Macs will share that way.
\n\nLINDSEY: And then I think one of the last things about remote work that is worth chatting about today is the team culture. We did have a very in-office culture, especially because folks are working on different client projects. And one of the things they love most about thoughtbot is the other thoughtboters and getting to see each other and maybe do investment projects together or going to the summit. So we had another question about this too, which is how do you foster that culture? How do you keep it going when no one's in-person anymore?
\n\nCHAD: I think this is one of the areas where we have the most iteration and learning to do because the work stuff we were already doing a lot of it. And the project stuff is easier to judge, too. So did the project work? Did we ship on time? Was the design great? It's a lot easier to get immediate feedback on whether what we're doing is working or not. And with the culture things, the ramifications of doing it badly might not manifest for months.
\n\nLINDSEY: We also need the client work to get money.
\n\nCHAD: Right. [chuckles]
\n\nLINDSEY: We need the money in order to work on the culture. [laughs]
\n\nCHAD: Right. And the fact that we've been doing this in the pandemic it's a double-edged sword. I think it gives us a little bit of leeway to say, “Things are not normal now. And so we can't do this or we can't do that, and that is just what it is. And so we're just going to have to make the best of it.” The other side of that, though, is that it's been a very difficult time for a lot of people, not only just because of the pandemic. This last year has been a really difficult year for a lot of people. And so, yes, we get a little bit of runway to figure things out because it's such a unique situation. At the same time, it's important more than ever to figure out how to support people and have things be good and fulfilling and sustainable for people and to have a culture that thrives, not necessarily just gets by. I think that is what has made this last year challenging is figuring that out.
\n\nSo some specifics, we traditionally get together as an entire company once a year. So we brought that all online last year, and we combined it with our end-of-the-year parties that we usually do, which are also a hackathon where we take time off of client work, and we work on projects together. So we combined those two things in December and had a two-day all-remote event with murder mysteries hosted by professional companies to trivia and then underlying with the hackathon. And I think people really enjoyed it. It was one of those things where I think people were -- there was a pocket of people who were really skeptical about it. “I'm tired of being on video calls all day,” and all that stuff. “I'm not feeling up for it,” like all these sorts of things. And it was like, “Trust me, just show up, just do it.” And I think what we heard was pretty universal that people were surprised at how enjoyable it was. And so this year we're doing three of those, two one-day ones and one two-day one. And that'll be in May and then the summer, and then the winter. Implicit in that is we're not expecting to be able to get back in person together in any large group for all of this year.
\n\nLINDSEY: But you do anticipate in-person summit return.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, definitely. I think it's more important than ever. And I think what we'll also see and encourage is team in-person get-togethers where it's not just the whole company, but you're on a project team or the marketing team or rocket fuel, as it likes to be called now, and get together. Yes, it's fine. Get together in this place. And that's one of the things that -- We spend a lot of money on very expensive offices in Boston and New York, and in the past, San Francisco, and Austin, London. It’s over $500,000 a year in office expenses between all those places that we still have the expense now. But once we're able to eliminate that expense, it's going to free up a lot of money to be put towards getting those teams together in person and do other things.
\n\nLINDSEY: That was the other thing I was going to say, and you noted this about the UK team is that there's also a lot of team-specific activities where team leadership for Boost, Ignite, Lift Off, Mission control or with the geography-based ones too are figuring out what kind of social stuff or testing out different ideas like the show and tells or doing quiz time. I know there's a pocket of folks who jump in the lounge, which came out of the remote summit, the lounge during lunchtime or after work on Friday, and just trying out different things.
\n\nCHAD: And Stephanie, who was the office manager in New York, has moved into an operations manager role, so company-wide. And a big part of what she is doing is figuring out things to try. And I think some things will succeed and some things won't, whether it's organizing games or the thing that just happened on Friday was people opting in to be paired for a 15-minute conversation with somebody else in the company, things like that. We're trying a lot of different things and seeing what works, what doesn't online. She created an online art gallery where people who are doing art can post it, that kind of thing. So we'll learn.
\n\nLINDSEY: We'll learn, and then we'll most likely share it with you, so stay tuned for that. You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm.
\n\nCHAD: If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel.
\n\nLINDSEY: And me on Twitter @Lindsey3D. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot.
\n\nCHAD: Thanks for listening, and see you next time.
\n\nLINDSEY: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot.
\n\nThoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
","summary":"Chad and Lindsey talk about how the pandemic has changed \"normal\" remote work and how thoughtbot has dealt with the transition from being majoritively in-person to fully remote, plus the impact it's had on both employees and clients.","date_published":"2021-05-27T05:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/6c1ec31e-231d-4b8b-bbf9-9200bc35843e.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":57948450,"duration_in_seconds":2899}]},{"id":"6cd5c845-ce3b-473a-97d0-edc8fa480c0d","title":"393: Reaffirming Values and Taking thoughtbot Remote","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/393","content_text":"Chad and Lindsey take listeners behind the scenes and go deep into the nitty-gritty of recent thoughtbot company changes driven by the pandemic and the organization's need (and desire!) to go fully remote – all while reaffirming and revisiting the organization's values, mission, and purpose as part of the process.\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nCHAD PYTEL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. \n\nLINDSEY CHRISTENSEN: And I'm your other host, Lindsey Christensen. And we're back. Thanks for tuning in. \n\nCHAD: We've missed you. \n\nLINDSEY: Yes. We’ve been kind of busy. \n\nCHAD: We've been busy, and we knew we were going to take a break after the last season. We didn't necessarily know for quite how long, and then a whole bunch of stuff happened, which we're going to tell you about today. From the last episode, you heard about the change to the thoughtbot CEO, and we alluded to some changes that we've made to the company. And we're going to talk about those today. \n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. And in true thoughtbot Giant Robots fashion, we’ll go behind the scenes and give you the nitty-gritty of why things happened and how it's going because it's all really interesting. \n\nCHAD: Yeah. I think on the surface, it's really easy to think about how maybe these changes have been entirely driven by the need to go remote or the desire to go remote. And the reality was that's an important part of it, but it really was so much more than that. Some of these changes that we've made are ones we've been talking about for a long time. And it wasn't until almost a year of operating in a different way that we said, “We need to make some of these changes in order to accommodate remote and working from anywhere.” And we fell back on a lot of other problems we needed to solve along the way. \n\nLINDSEY: So we actually decided to break out remote work into its own episode, which will be the next episode. And I'm sure it's going to come up today, but it's a whole other area of changes and focus, whereas some of the reorg changes that we just underwent solved a lot or are trying to solve a number of challenges that we've been working on over the years. So I guess to start off, before we reorganized, how did we function? And that was largely geographically based. \n\nCHAD: Yeah. And the geographic basis means that we had a studio in a city, and in that studio, we offered the complete thoughtbot services. And that was driven by this idea back in 2012 when we started to expand. Prior to that, we really held the company to less than 30 people. And we were primarily a group of people all in one location working together, and we were all of what thoughtbot was. And we really liked that. We liked the structure. But people wanted to move and live somewhere else. And our purpose is that we believe that there's a better way to work. And we want to share it with as many people as possible, although we've revised that purpose now as part of this process. And so I really remember the day we were having a company meeting, and someone stood up and said, “If we really believe we have a better way to work, why are we not trying to bring it to more people? Why are we losing these great team members only because they want to live somewhere else?” But we also really liked the small, close-knit team of people who worked closely together on client work. We had done some client projects that were split across teams and across time zones and that kind of stuff. And it just didn't feel as good as we wanted it to feel, especially because it was hybrid. \n\nAnd so we said, “We know exactly what a great thoughtbot looks like. Instead of trying to expand what that great thoughtbot looks like, let's try to replicate it instead.” And so when someone wanted to move to a new city, we said, “That’s great.” We looked at the market in the city that they were moving to and said, “Let's grow another thoughtbot around them and use that as the starting point for a new thoughtbot studio that would be a full design and development team that offers and works with all the different kinds of clients that we work with.” And that was the model which brought us to being in six cities in the UK and in the U.S. and about 100 people working with a whole bunch of clients every year across those. But for the individual person working at thoughtbot, individual designer or developer, it felt very much like thoughtbot had always felt, which was you were working with a team of three or four other people directly on that client. Oftentimes, the client would be in the same city as you. And when we could meet face-to-face with people, they'd be working in our office, and we'd be working really closely with them. \n\nLINDSEY: Another interesting element of that structure was the marketing, and community was also very locally based, so engaging in and hosting local meetups. Actually, all of our offices -- We had offices, first of all, in amazing locations in all of these tech hub cities, and all the offices additionally had space for specifically events and community type of activities. And we thought a lot about nurturing local community, creating local partnerships. Obviously, we're thinking a lot about the hiring pool, and nurturing potential future hires in those cities as well. \n\nCHAD: Yeah, and that's what we had done in Boston where we got started, and it's very fulfilling to be part of your local community. And we wanted to embrace that as we grew. And for a good while, it worked pretty well. We were certainly able to grow quickly once we decided to do it. A lot of people who listened to the podcast a long time will recognize that we actually at one point had ten cities, some of which were pretty established and other ones which we were expanding into. And we learned a lot along the way about how much harder it is to build a local business than we originally were anticipating it would be. One of the things that we learned, and I've talked about this on the podcast in the past, is that with our reputation in the design and development community, we could often go into a major city and have a great first year because there was a lot of pent up demand for people who wanted to work with us, work at the company and as our clients. And that really led us astray in the beginning because we would go into -- We were expanding in three or four cities in the same year, and they were all super successful. So we were hiring teams to do all the work that we had. What we weren't doing was all the legwork we needed to do to build a sustainable local business. And so after the first batch of clients or the first batch and a half of clients we were done working with, we didn't have a sustainable pipeline of new local clients coming in. And so we learned a lot about how much we actually need to do when going into a new city to not only have that great first year but to have a great fifth year. And so we had a few failures where we had to close some studios just because we couldn't afford to operate them profitably, and that was pretty painful. I forget the episode numbers where we talked about it in the past, but we have. You can go back and listen to it. We can link them in the show notes. \n\nLINDSEY: In addition to having the designers and the developers in the local studios, at least in recent years, we also had the structure that each city studio had a managing director. And a lot of those managing directors actually came from design and development themselves, but they were in charge of everything local including, and especially the sale, so finding new clients, onboarding them, the actual profitability of their studio, hiring. And again, as you mentioned, that was across all kinds of clients, all kinds of projects, but primarily locally based. \n\nCHAD: And once we realized what it was going to take to build local businesses and make them successful, we refined that managing director position a lot. It wasn't one that we necessarily had in every studio, and so adding it or, in some cases, making the difficult decision to swap out the person in that with someone. Now that we understood what was necessary, making sure that someone in that position actually wanted that job and could do it. And that has been the journey we've been on; I would say for the past three or four years of making those changes, figuring it out so that when it was working well, each of the studios could work really well. And we've made a lot of progress with that. \n\nBut one of the problems we had, so we have all the individual studios, and then we have the corporate-level people which are myself and you, marketing people, operations supporting all of the studios. And one of the things that we've struggled with over the years is being consistently profitable as we've grown or primarily operating break-even, which historically we were very comfortable doing because the whole leadership and shareholder of thoughtbot and ownership all worked here. We care a lot about paying people as much as we can possibly do and having the greatest benefits we possibly can while staying sustainable. And so it wasn't an issue. We're not running the company to generate lots of profits that then go to some investors or shareholders. So operating breakeven wasn't historically a problem, where it started to become a problem is as we grew and grew, the numbers became large enough that when things didn't go like we were expecting and we were managing to break even, then we would be very unprofitable very quickly if something didn't go the way that we were expecting, and it started to put the company at risk. So we started to focus more on profitability. And one of the things that was hurting profitability is that we were maintaining these small teams with offices, and just the overhead of a small team across many different geographies added overhead, which made it harder to be profitable because we needed to do everything in each individual location. \n\nLINDSEY: Right. So now, really getting into those big challenges that were pressuring us to rethink how we operate, profitability and margin was a big one, which once you look at the breakdown in the numbers, the overhead of having the different studios was one. I think that also bleeds into the MDs have really challenging positions. They're responsible for a lot: they're responsible for the happiness and fulfillment of their teams; they're doing business development; they're doing client management; they're in charge of their entire revenue sheet. So that was another area that I think over time, we were consistently looking at; how do we improve this role? How do we make it so that folks can be successful here? \n\nCHAD: Well, you can imagine, too, that designers and developers at thoughtbot we were seeing a similar thing, which is in a lot of ways, thoughtbot is modeled around me and other early developers. And I would often tell people I really like a lot of variety. I like to be working on one client and have huge scaling problems and challenges that we’re working at and growing their business to a whole nother level. And I like rotating off of that. And I then like working with a startup where we’re building the first version of the product. And for some people, no doubt that is exciting and challenging but worth it. And same thing on the sales side for managing directors, like being able to know how to effectively communicate and sell to the needs of each of those different kinds of projects. It's totally doable, but it adds to a lot of effort and angst being spent on just always trying to do everything, both on the development side and the managing director side, and it's hard. And that was one of the challenges that we were hearing either explicitly, or in a lot of cases, I don't think people realized it was happening. Everyone at thoughtbot is amazing and is great and very high execution level and all that stuff. And when you start getting challenges or feedback about poor performance from a great performer, you start to question why is that? What's going on? And it's an unrealistic expectation to have someone work in as part of a large enterprise for six months and then next week have them working on a brand new startup MVP that's got to go to production in six weeks and necessarily expect them to on a dime be able to change their approach to managing that product and making sure that it's successful. \n\nAnd like you said, we want to put people in a position where they can be as successful as possible in everything that they do and having good people spin their wheels even if it's not a performance problem -- if there's a level of interest or excitement for one kind of client over another, we have a system of collecting feedback about what you want to work on and rating the incoming projects. But the primary determinator for what project you work on was which one was starting at the time your other project was ending; that was the primary determiner. So people effectively had no choice about the kind of project that they would work on. And that was a common complaint that we heard from people is that lack of control. \n\nLINDSEY: And even though it wasn't supposed to happen, I think people did have reputations for a specialty, and the managing directors or whoever was staffing a project would seek out certain folks for certain projects. So even though we'd like to think of everyone as being able to handle any kind of project, and at a basic level, they could for sure, people with specialties were sought out for things. So that was already happening organically. \n\nCHAD: And related but even going deeper on it, when we're maintaining small groups of people that are a complete replica of everything that is thoughtbot, and it's a group of 9 to 25 people, that ability to specialize or to have a career path that extends -- The company you're a part of feels like a 20-person company, and in a 20-person company, there's naturally not going to be tons of room for a big career ladder and lots of advancement or specialization. You will trend towards having a team of people that are more generalized and less hierarchical. \n\nLINDSEY: Were there any other big challenges that come to mind for you when we were going into, like, let's revisit how we're structured? \n\nCHAD: Well, there was one that touched on all of what we just talked about, and that was design and thoughtbot. And this is one thing that's super interesting. And I think I've talked about it on the show before. But we started from day one as a design and development company. We've always done design, and we've always had people on staff that did it. And one of the things that happened, though, is being the first consulting company in the world to switch to Ruby on Rails and being a big contributor to that community, and building a reputation through our open-source and through our blog and everything on the development side, that part of the business has grown. The development team is much larger than the design team. And a lot of people in the world view thoughtbot as oh, they're a Rails development company and really it wasn’t -- What we've always talked about is Rails is in service of the products that we want to design and build and creating great products. And so design has consistently been a challenge over the years as the reputation there isn't as big as on the development side. \n\nAnd so what we saw in the individual studios were each individual studio needed to have a certain number of designers in order to feel like it had a design team and to be able to service the work that it did have locally and a management structure within that team that made sense. It had all those problems that we've just talked about. It was difficult to be profitable. It was difficult to have enough locals work for the two or three designers that were in a studio. And that specialization for what they would do and the kinds of projects that they would work on didn't always match the actual work that we had in a particular city at a time. And so because we were organizing the work that we did geographically, it wasn't uncommon for a designer to not have client work to do and that hurt the design team because we were attracting these great designers. And people are at thoughtbot because they want to build great products; they want to do great work, and then they join the team, and they're not doing it. And so design turnover has been much higher than other parts of the company for that and other related reasons. \n\nLINDSEY: Okay. So I have a question for you because you and Diana started on this process before I was involved. So for you, when did reorganization first start? \n\nCHAD: Well, as I alluded to at the top of the show, we had been talking about these kinds of things for a while. And I think you were part of most of those discussions as part of the management team where it'd be like, oh, should we break out design? And there wasn't really this clear -- Our strategy for the last many years has been strong local studios bound together by a common purpose and values. And we were feeling pretty good about that strategy. So these problems would crop up, and we would evaluate them in the context of that strategy and say, “No, we're reaffirming our strategy.” So it wasn't until having gone through 2020 and looking towards what 2021 was going to be like and saying, “We've got all these things that could be better. But one thing we know that needs to change is we can't go through another year of everyone planning for all of this to be temporary and to be back to the way that we were before.” We had already been breaking down the geographic barriers of studios because many projects were being staffed across offices at a much higher level than ever was before. And we had given everybody the thumbs up to move wherever they wanted, and we were going to support it. And we had about 20 people move from places where we had a studio to places where we didn't. And so it was really that that crystallized the need to -- I didn't know exactly what we were going to do going into it, but this feeling we need to do something because we can't stay in this limbo state for another year, which is what we were predicting in terms of how long we were going to be in the current operating mode. And even when it does come back, we now have 20+ people who don't live where we have offices anymore. So we can't go through this next period of time expecting things to just go back to the way that they were. So that was when we knew that we were going to do it. So I guess that was at the end of November or the beginning of December of 2020. \n\nLINDSEY: It was exciting to have this push to do it. As you mentioned, we talked about different options before. Like Joe had come up with, I remember, a really clever squad-based team proposal. We’d thrown around, “Should we do an industry-based team structure?” But I think what was really missing was a push, a driver, you know, you have to. Because it was “Everything else is kind of working okay the way it is. What if this is a big mistake?” And so we wouldn't move forward. So we had these major drivers to decide on something and then went into what I think is a really successful and fascinating series of brainstorming and iteration sessions pretty quickly as a leadership team to hone in on what we've ended up rolling out. \n\nCHAD: And I think one of the things that I appreciated, and it was Diana who did this, was saying, “Let's make sure we reaffirm or revisit our values and purpose as part of this process.” And when you have a company that is driven by values and purpose, it's important when you're making big decisions to revisit them so that they're helping guide what you actually do so that you don't get off track. And we anticipated that the change was going to be big enough that maybe even the value -- We need to be open to the possibility that the value or the purpose would change or should change in the process or had already changed and we hadn't reflected them. And so that was a part of it, like expecting to go into it doing that. And then we can't have a...or maybe we could, but we decided it wasn't realistic to have a 100-person meeting. So again, for a lot of the things we do at thoughtbot, we treat thoughtbot like a product in and of itself. And we use the tools and techniques as designers and developers on that product itself. And so we did survey the team to get their thoughts around purpose and values and around what it had been like to work remotely and just a few questions in general about how they felt about projects and work and that kind of thing. And then, we took that information that we had gathered from the team into the design thinking and brainstorming sessions with the leadership team, which was the managing directors across all the studios and the design and development directors, and then the corporate leadership. \n\nLINDSEY: And I'd say at the forefront of these exercises and decisions was how do we ensure thoughtboters are fulfilled? And also, how do we provide the most value to clients, and where those things intersect, how could we potentially reorganize ourselves? And these sessions are some of my favorite things to do, even though they can be maybe stressful times that are driving these exercises. But doing these kinds of really open brainstorming and design thinking exercises, problem-solving with our team, which is full of the smartest, most thoughtful, kindest people, I find incredibly fulfilling and really drive amazing outcomes. And I’m kind of sappy, I guess here. But I start to feel like, oh my gosh, I know why our clients love working with these folks. It's a really powerful exercise, and you come up with really amazing ideas and outcomes. \n\nCHAD: Yeah. I had a thought as you were saying that, though, that I agree, but I think you could do exactly the same thing but not be committed to actually making a change. If you were just doing it, it would drive me crazy. [chuckles] And I think that that's an important component is that we went into it saying something is going to change; we don't know what it is. We define problems, and then we come up with solutions to those problems, and we are going to make a change. And that was the difference between the previous we're all sort of venting or trying to do it in a leadership meeting. And I think off-sites and brainstorming sessions and that kind of thing get a bad rap, but when they're actually necessary and when they're done well, and when you have a group of people that are committed to improvement and actually making a change, they can be really great. \n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. And I think you all had set out a goal. You and Diana had set a goal schedule of how this would work, which is coming up with ideas as an extended leadership team which is maybe like 18 people. And doing that, we booked a half-day, maybe a bit more; obviously, this is all virtual. And we'd have different sessions where we were breaking out into smaller groups of maybe five people randomized each time and working through a specific challenge or coming up with a specific proposal, then reconvening as the extended leadership team and running through those proposals. So that would be the first individual day. And then you and Diana went off with those proposals and ideas to make some executive decisions around what you thought made sense and then re-proposed to the extended leadership team for feedback and iteration with the goal that every week we're getting closer to the final, final thing that we're going to roll out to the team. And also, by the way, how do we roll that out? \n\nCHAD: I'm curious from your perspective how that worked because we didn't go into the process expecting it to work that way. Well, I guess we did. When Diana and I were planning it, though, we initially started from a different place, and then we realized this is going to be too difficult for a group to converge on, and it probably does need us to go and force a convergence basically and then go back and make a proposal. But I'm curious what you think about that. \n\nLINDSEY: Oh, I think you absolutely have to do that. \n\nCHAD: [chuckles] Okay. \n\nLINDSEY: And that's the way I operate, too, even from a marketing perspective, is to take input and ideas and see what folks think. But at the end of the day, you can't make a group decision; someone has to make an executive decision based on what they've heard. So I thought that worked well. Plus, I was in the group that came up with the idea for the reorg we chose. I don't want to brag about it, but it was a great decision. \n\nCHAD: [laughs] \n\nLINDSEY: So yeah, I guess getting into what that actually was, what we ended up deciding and have moved forward with was breaking out the teams, so keeping a team-based structure but no longer geographically-based but actually each team based on the types of clients and client projects that they're providing services for. And obviously, those services are tailored to the type of client projects. \n\nCHAD: Shall we go through them? [chuckles] \n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, we should go through them. \n\nCHAD: [chuckles] Okay. \n\nLINDSEY: So the naming came after the fact, but we also had a lot of fun with branding and naming these teams and went all-in on the rocket theme, as you'll hear. So we've got four main service teams. The first one deals with the earliest stage products kind of pre-product so validating ideas, and that is thoughtbot Ignite. The next team deals with more MVP, V1 but not really a quick project, like longer MVP types of projects, and that is thoughtbot Lift Off. The third team deals with more established companies and teams who are elevating their product and teams to the next level that's thoughtbot Boost. And then finally, we've introduced more DevOps and maintenance services under thoughtbot Mission Control, and they also manage our PR reviews as a service, reviews by thoughtbot. So that's the quick overview of the four teams you've got Ignite, Lift Off, Boost, and Mission Control. \n\nCHAD: And the interesting thing about the team structure and what each team was going to focus on is that once we made the decision that this was -- there wasn't really a lot of question around what those teams would be. We knew these different project types existed. It was something that we have documented, and it's in our marketing. We have positioning statements already. A lot of these client types were already created. We have an internal consulting class that people take, about 20 people a quarter take it. And it goes over the different kinds of clients that we work with and the different needs that they have and how to work with them. And it was split along these lines. Now there were some small details on the edges to be worked out, but what was difficult was making the decision to do this. Once we made the decision to do it, what those teams would be was pretty clear. \n\nLINDSEY: Obviously, I love it. From a marketing perspective, breaking out these different types of clients makes so much sense. You're talking to them about different sets of needs, goals, pain points, so there's great focus and clarity there. And then that trickles to everyone's job. The managing directors now are responsible for one of these service-based teams. The designers and developers themselves are specializing and really enjoy that type of work. And in the breakout group during these brainstorming sessions that I was in, I remember when we were starting from this place of anything goes, I was asking the directors in my group, “What do you think makes our team fulfilled? Are they more interested in a specific industry? Are they more interested in a specific technology? Are they more interested in a type of client?” And the directors in my group all said, “I really think it is the type of project that provides fulfillment in different ways for different folks.” So we took that as a starting point, and then it was, “Okay, well, what are those different types of clients if we could put them into four or five buckets?” \n\nCHAD: And Ignite and Lift Off are really interesting to me because it's a good example of where the lines can be effectively drawn. So you alluded to it already, Ignite is for the earliest of products and teams where the idea hasn't even been validated yet, and they need our help determining whether it even makes sense to proceed at all. And then when we do validate it, the size of what we're building and the speed at which we're going to be able to get to market falls under 12 weeks. It will typically fall in the 8 to 10-week range where we've gone from that concept that we validated to a launch product in the hands of users. And they’re ruthlessly prioritized. They're usually pretty straightforward, both on the tech side but also in what we need to build. And I think one mistake we've made in the past is taking large finance and healthcare companies and these large companies that we also work with and trying to do the same thing that we do for those Ignite clients for them and ending up in a place where maybe we haven't done as good a job, or the project doesn't go as well because we're trying to squeeze it into a place where it doesn't fit. And that's what Lift Off is; it’s creating a space where it fits, realizing that a client who comes to us with this massive need it's not massive because they're doing too much. It's massive because they have a big problem that they want to solve, usually for a business that already exists, and it's a new product within that business. Maybe they've even already validated it. And the integrations that it's going to have, the systems it needs to talk to, the level of scale that it's going to have is different than is going to be possible in 8 to 12 weeks. And when we try to squeeze it in there, it's not going to be successful. So Lift-Off is giving a space for those projects to thrive in a way. \n\nAnd I also think it's one of those things where it's going to have an impact on our sales too because what would happen previously is that one of those clients might come to us and we're furiously trying to squeeze it down. And how a client perceives that is potentially like, “Oh, they don't know how to do what we need them to do, or they don't want to do it. Or they think our idea is bad because they're saying we need to validate it, and we've already validated it. We have an existing business that we're building this off of,” or something like that. And it causes us to lose that work, which we would otherwise love to have. And now a client like that comes and is talking to a managing director who gets the needs of that kind of project and a team of people that are going to work on it that understand that there's a process to run through and it's going to take six months or a year. We're going to launch along the way, and then we're going to continue to grow the product from there. It's just a different feeling all around, which I think is going to have a positive impact on our ability to actually grow those parts of the business. \n\nLINDSEY: And Lift Off by nature of working on those health, tech, and financial products is also dealing with highly regulated spaces, which is another reason why those projects are necessarily longer and more complex and lend themselves well to someone who's dealt with it before. \n\nCHAD: Right. Another thing, and we touched on this a little bit earlier with Boost, is a big part of our business historically is that those clients that have built-in Rails along the way, they've built a super successful business. They're scaling a lot. They're growing their team. They need technical leadership, experience mentorship, and those projects tend to be very development-heavy as well. Like, we have clients where we have four or five developers working with them and no designers, and it caused the design and the development team to be very lopsided. But we really liked that work, and it's very valuable to clients. And so same thing with Boost, Boost instead of that being something which is pushed off into the back where like, oh, well, it's not the project-based integrated team of designers and developers launching a new product, and so it's not our ideal work. It gives a space where that can be our ideal work, and the kinds of people who want to work on those kinds of projects with that level of experience and need feel like they are able to do that on a team that is focused on that. And that team doesn't necessarily need to have a design team that works or looks the same as every other place at thoughtbot. And it creates a place which can focus on what it needs to do in the best way possible that is the most fulfilling to the team and success for the customers. And it looks different than thoughtbot has historically looked, and that's okay. Because actually, when you pick it apart, it's not that different; it’s just taking the 20% of all of the thoughtbot studios where the 20% felt like something that wasn't quite right and putting it all together to make 100% of something that feels right. \n\nLINDSEY: And from the design perspective, Boost design is a lot around optimizing what already is in place or helping take care of design debt that's been neglected, making sure design and development are talking to each other and thinking about those processes to make them talk to each other better. Whereas Lift Off and Ignite are more introducing design or design processes or design frameworks like putting your design system together or thinking about your accessibility processes, those kinds of activities. And then Mission Control is probably the newest to thoughtbot in terms of services that we're offering clients. \n\nCHAD: And within Mission Control, there are two big areas that are different, so the first is maintenance. So we historically have been project-based at thoughtbot. And what that would mean is that well, it doesn't necessarily mean -- So historically, project-based plus everyone working on one project at a time, I think the combination of those two things meant that what we mostly did was we help people set up their own team of people who are going to take over from what we had done after we launched the first version of the product and level it up from there. And most of our clients got to the point where the goal was to become self-sufficient. And we also would meet people who had already built something and were just looking for our expertise to help take care of it but not necessarily have enough work for someone full-time. And for both of those clients, we didn't really have a solution for them. And so that's where the maintenance team in Mission Control comes into play because it's a team of people who have opted into splitting their time across multiple clients. The contracts are different where they're paying a monthly recurring maintenance fee for us to take care of certain things every month: security upgrades, patches, small bug fixes, and features. Maybe they even have a team on staff where they're doing the majority of the development work, but they just want our support in helping things go well. \n\nAnd also, you mentioned the pull request review service that's within Mission Control as well where we have a separate service where you can sign up, and you just request a pull request review from thoughtbot, and then one of our team members goes on and gives you feedback on that pull request. So that's one part of what's happening in Mission Control is that maintenance work. And then the other is DevOps, and infrastructure is an area where the majority of projects that we worked on across all of thoughtbot were deployed to Heroku or the teams had their own DevOps and infrastructure people and creating a specialization of that for a handful of projects for an individual studio that has that need, over the course of a year, never made sense. But once we started to do it and we took a more global view to it and said, “Across all of our clients, what is the need either met or unmet and what might we be able to do? And where is the interest of our team?” It became clear we could offer -- like, our clients need us to do this sometimes. And for the clients who need us to do it, we want to be there for them. We want to do it. And creating a team of people that is global, that can do it across time zones 24/7 is also one of the needs of the clients, and having that team span those geographies is one way we've been able to do that when historically we would have shied away from that. \n\nLINDSEY: And speaking of the team's interest in different areas, different services for the rollout of this new organization, we, by and large, had folks opt in to what they wanted to do even as far as the managing directors picking what team that they were going to head up. \n\nCHAD: So we said, “These are what the teams are going to be,” and we did a company-wide presentation. And then, we asked people to submit their first and second choice. And then we made the decision around which of the managing directors were going to do what and then we announced that to everybody. Am I saying this the right way? Did we announce the managing directors before we asked everybody or just before the deadline was up? \n\nLINDSEY: I think it was trickled in. At first, it was “What team do you want to be on?” But then, as that's going on behind the scenes, you and Diana are having discussions with the managing directors around where they want to be. And then, as that information became available, you shared that with the team also to help with decisions, same with the design and development directors. I think it was announced the design and development directors chose the teams they wanted to be on and lead. And then, once that was finalized, that was also shared with the team as they're voting on where they want to head. \n\nCHAD: And the majority of people got their first choice and the majority of people the person who was their manager also chose a similar choice. And so there was a lot of change but not too much churn, I guess is the way I would put it. We were able to do it in a way which I think people felt like they had a choice. And I think going into it; people were afraid of that like okay, am I going to make a choice here and then end up on a team of people I've never worked with before? That was not the case. Now there's certainly a big blending of the teams, particularly Boston and New York were the biggest studios. And so they make up the majority of the people in each of the Boost and Lift Off. But people are working with people that they have worked with before. \n\nLINDSEY: And it turns out the people they didn't work with before are also awesome, also, very cool. \n\nCHAD: [chuckles] So much effort over the years spent -- that strategy of replicating what was great about thoughtbot into other geographies is true. And so the standards that we had for hiring, and the kinds of people we hire, and the screening for values fit, and all that stuff led us to a place where everyone at thoughtbot is great. And so I wasn't really concerned about that, but other people may have been because there's always a fear of the unknown. \n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, definitely. I'm trying to think if there were other rollout things that might be interesting. \n\nCHAD: Well, one of the interesting things it's a little in the details. On the surface, that is the team, and those are the services we offer. But we also needed to contend with the fact that we are in the U.S. and the UK, and we didn't really feel like it makes sense to have those teams span 10+ time zones, that that would be too far of a stretch. And it would affect people's fulfillment on the team as well as the services we are able to deliver. So these services that we offer are actually fulfilled by two…do we have a word for it? [chuckles] \n\nLINDSEY: Geographies? \n\nCHAD: Geographies, yeah, I guess. \n\nLINDSEY: There are two geographies that we ended up naming Launchpad 1 and Launchpad 2, because rockets. \n\nCHAD: So Launchpad 1 is all of the Americas, and Launchpad 2 is Europe, Middle East, and Africa. And so they provide all of those services in those places. But they have teams that are formed across the whole geographic region. And then eventually, if all goes well, we'll have Launchpad 3, and that'll be [chuckles] the other side of the world. \n\nLINDSEY: I've got the icon ready and waiting. So I guess timing-wise, this all happened...rollout was by the beginning of the year, right? January? \n\nCHAD: Yeah. One of the things is more people took more time off between the December Holidays and New Year's and everything than they have ever done before, and we needed it. Everyone needed it. So we weren't able to finalize what team everyone was on and have a conversation about that with everybody before they saw it in a message somewhere, which we really wanted to do. So we ended up not being able to finish all of that before the end of the year. And so it rolled into the first couple of weeks of January as people came back, and we were able to talk to them. And then I think we made the internally public announcements about all the teams that everyone was going to be on, and we did a formal kickoff. What was it? January 8th or something like that. \n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. And I think that's actually a really good point to bring up is the communication to the individuals. It was important for them to hear it one-on-one from their manager before anything was announced more broadly and then to transition to their team if their manager was changing, which in a lot of cases, it didn't, but sometimes it did. Having one-on-one-on-one transition meetings to really ease that move was also important to not make this really abrupt and unnecessarily stressful in a time that is already very stressful for reasons we know. \n\nCHAD: And even if someone's direct manager wasn't changing, it was very likely that their director would change. And so, in those cases, we still did a one-on-one-on-one, but it was with the new director sitting in as well as a skip-level one-on-one on-one. And we did it quickly, but it was important to make it happen quickly. \n\nLINDSEY: And it was also important to not abruptly change on the clients because obviously, we weren't doing a full stop of client work just because we're doing some reshuffling internally. So that was phased, and we didn't even really make it a big deal to the clients because that probably would have just added confusion as we were making these changes. \n\nCHAD: Yeah, definitely. And we made the decision that we weren't going to just arbitrarily say, “This person is now on this team; therefore, they have to leave this project,” so we made that decision. And we have as natural points in the project for a rotation to happen. People will move to a project; if there's a mismatch between the project that they're on and the team that they're on, they'll move at a natural point. But the reality was that a lot of people also chose -- It's not like we have 57 different project types; we have three. And so a lot of people were already working on the project type that they chose just because the odds were good that they were. There's been very little customer-facing impact to it. So it's early days. It's March now, so it's been a couple of months. But how do you think it's going, or where do you think the growing pains are? \n\nLINDSEY: Good question. I think there's been more of a smooth transition than there have been growing pains, first of all, which has been nice. I think folks have been pleasantly surprised by really enjoying their new teams and new team members. I think growing pains-wise, on the operations side, obviously we've had to...I think we’re still in the process of figuring out how to best pipe certain kinds of inquiries into the right team and managing director. Sometimes it's a no-brainer. They're like, “I need to validate this idea.” It's like boom, “You're off to Dawn for Ignite, and you’re going to have a conversation there.” But if they come in and they say, “I'm working on an MVP, and we don't know if that MVP is one of the really fast ones or one of the more complex ones,” then it's like, okay, is this going to Dawn or Emily? \n\nCHAD: And we historically didn't need to have any handoffs because one person was able…one person and team; it was based on geography. So we knew exactly who was going to be having that conversation with them. So operationally, it's actually one thing we didn't touch. So no one was let go in this big reorg. There was a position for everyone, I guess, if they wanted it. But one area we haven't touched on is anyone who was local, who was in a support role moved up into the corporate level in a support or operations role. And there weren't that many of those people, but the office manager in Boston is now full-time in people operations. And the office manager in New York City is now the operations manager for the whole team, the whole company. Kelly, who was doing business development just in Boston, is now helping across all of thoughtbot, which is really good at using her skill set across the whole company. I think that that's good. \n\nAnd now, like you said, figuring out how to support everyone across the teams is a little bit of whether it be the operations manager figuring out how to get people computers when we hire new people to like what you were saying around inquiries coming in and making sure that they're sent to the right person. The thing that has made it more challenging for me is that just a confluence of events at the time where we were making some of these changes. And now it has made my involvement different than I was originally expecting them to be. I expected to be a little bit more involved in certain things, but because I've been pulled into several important client projects and was working on client work at the time that then expanded very rapidly, it's been challenging for me to manage the workload. But in some ways, there's a bright side to it, which is it's giving other people the space to operate without me, which I think can be good because I'm very confident in what everyone's bringing to the table. And when you go through a big period of change like this, if everyone was deferring to what I thought as the founder or looking for me for answers or permission to do something, I think that we would suffer for it. And so being forced in a way to not be available for everything that's going on is a way for people to have more ownership over it and not be relying on me, and I know that they can do it. \n\nLINDSEY: Cool. \n\nCHAD: So we never said what the new purpose was. So maybe we'll just talk a little bit about that, and then we'll use that as a wrapping up point. \n\nLINDSEY: Sounds good. \n\nCHAD: So I mentioned earlier our purpose had been we believe that there's a better way to work. There's always a better way to work, and we want to find it and share it with as many people as possible. We had written down that purpose several years ago, like a decade ago, I think. And I believe a good purpose describes what is the underlying motivation for the company and the people at it. And when we did that survey of people, a few of the questions we asked touched on it. And it wasn't that surprising to me about -- one of the threads in that was this idea of positive contributions to the world, making sure that the things that we work on and do have positive contributions to the world and that being a motivating factor. Like, that's part of what makes the team tick and what they want to be doing and are fulfilled by and that kind of thing. And so we incorporated that into the purpose. And so we adjusted the wording a little bit to make that incorporation, but we ended up that we believe that it's always possible to continuously learn and improve the way people work while building higher quality products that make positive contributions to the world. \n\nThis resonated with me in a way that -- it's a little bit more wordy, and that's not why it resonates with me. [chuckles] Specifically, our previous purpose of we believe that there's always a better way to work and we want to find it and share it with as many people as possible lacked one thing that I think a good purpose can incorporate, which is what is a clear idea of what the alternative is like, what you're fighting against, or what you're trying to improve. It's there in the previous purpose. So, in theory, there maybe are people out there who believe that there's not always a better way to work that they've achieved it or something like that or that they have particular practices which aren't great. But it's not explicit or really even implicit in the purpose. And the new purpose we believe that it's possible to continuously learn and improve the way people work while building higher quality products and make positive contributions to the world. You can point to someone who might believe the opposite of that, that you can't build higher quality products that make positive contributions to the world while also continuously learning and improving the way that you work and everything, that to build higher quality products or make positive contributions to the world, you might need to compromise on the values of continuous improvement and learning. And our new purpose makes a statement that you don't need to compromise in order to achieve that result, and I like that about it. \n\nLINDSEY: I really like the addition of talking about the kinds of positive products because I think once you know thoughtbot at all, you know that that's underlying the purpose but take out the guesswork, just tell the folks. All right. Well, I think that's a good place to stop. I'm glad we didn't even go into the remote because there's obviously a lot to talk about. \n\nCHAD: Yeah. So we'll talk about that next time? \n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. We're going to talk about what changes we've made in going completely remote and what that looks like, what we think it looks like for the future. \n\nCHAD: Cool. \n\nLINDSEY: So you can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm \n\nCHAD: If you have questions or comments, and we'd love to hear them, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm, or you can find me on Twitter @cpytel. \n\nLINDSEY: And you can find me on Twitter @Lindsey3D. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot. \n\nCHAD: It's good to be back. Thanks for listening and see you next time. \n\nLINDSEY: It's so good to be back. Stay tuned. \n\nThis podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. Thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. ","content_html":"Chad and Lindsey take listeners behind the scenes and go deep into the nitty-gritty of recent thoughtbot company changes driven by the pandemic and the organization's need (and desire!) to go fully remote – all while reaffirming and revisiting the organization's values, mission, and purpose as part of the process.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD PYTEL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel.
\n\nLINDSEY CHRISTENSEN: And I'm your other host, Lindsey Christensen. And we're back. Thanks for tuning in.
\n\nCHAD: We've missed you.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yes. We’ve been kind of busy.
\n\nCHAD: We've been busy, and we knew we were going to take a break after the last season. We didn't necessarily know for quite how long, and then a whole bunch of stuff happened, which we're going to tell you about today. From the last episode, you heard about the change to the thoughtbot CEO, and we alluded to some changes that we've made to the company. And we're going to talk about those today.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. And in true thoughtbot Giant Robots fashion, we’ll go behind the scenes and give you the nitty-gritty of why things happened and how it's going because it's all really interesting.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. I think on the surface, it's really easy to think about how maybe these changes have been entirely driven by the need to go remote or the desire to go remote. And the reality was that's an important part of it, but it really was so much more than that. Some of these changes that we've made are ones we've been talking about for a long time. And it wasn't until almost a year of operating in a different way that we said, “We need to make some of these changes in order to accommodate remote and working from anywhere.” And we fell back on a lot of other problems we needed to solve along the way.
\n\nLINDSEY: So we actually decided to break out remote work into its own episode, which will be the next episode. And I'm sure it's going to come up today, but it's a whole other area of changes and focus, whereas some of the reorg changes that we just underwent solved a lot or are trying to solve a number of challenges that we've been working on over the years. So I guess to start off, before we reorganized, how did we function? And that was largely geographically based.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. And the geographic basis means that we had a studio in a city, and in that studio, we offered the complete thoughtbot services. And that was driven by this idea back in 2012 when we started to expand. Prior to that, we really held the company to less than 30 people. And we were primarily a group of people all in one location working together, and we were all of what thoughtbot was. And we really liked that. We liked the structure. But people wanted to move and live somewhere else. And our purpose is that we believe that there's a better way to work. And we want to share it with as many people as possible, although we've revised that purpose now as part of this process. And so I really remember the day we were having a company meeting, and someone stood up and said, “If we really believe we have a better way to work, why are we not trying to bring it to more people? Why are we losing these great team members only because they want to live somewhere else?” But we also really liked the small, close-knit team of people who worked closely together on client work. We had done some client projects that were split across teams and across time zones and that kind of stuff. And it just didn't feel as good as we wanted it to feel, especially because it was hybrid.
\n\nAnd so we said, “We know exactly what a great thoughtbot looks like. Instead of trying to expand what that great thoughtbot looks like, let's try to replicate it instead.” And so when someone wanted to move to a new city, we said, “That’s great.” We looked at the market in the city that they were moving to and said, “Let's grow another thoughtbot around them and use that as the starting point for a new thoughtbot studio that would be a full design and development team that offers and works with all the different kinds of clients that we work with.” And that was the model which brought us to being in six cities in the UK and in the U.S. and about 100 people working with a whole bunch of clients every year across those. But for the individual person working at thoughtbot, individual designer or developer, it felt very much like thoughtbot had always felt, which was you were working with a team of three or four other people directly on that client. Oftentimes, the client would be in the same city as you. And when we could meet face-to-face with people, they'd be working in our office, and we'd be working really closely with them.
\n\nLINDSEY: Another interesting element of that structure was the marketing, and community was also very locally based, so engaging in and hosting local meetups. Actually, all of our offices -- We had offices, first of all, in amazing locations in all of these tech hub cities, and all the offices additionally had space for specifically events and community type of activities. And we thought a lot about nurturing local community, creating local partnerships. Obviously, we're thinking a lot about the hiring pool, and nurturing potential future hires in those cities as well.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, and that's what we had done in Boston where we got started, and it's very fulfilling to be part of your local community. And we wanted to embrace that as we grew. And for a good while, it worked pretty well. We were certainly able to grow quickly once we decided to do it. A lot of people who listened to the podcast a long time will recognize that we actually at one point had ten cities, some of which were pretty established and other ones which we were expanding into. And we learned a lot along the way about how much harder it is to build a local business than we originally were anticipating it would be. One of the things that we learned, and I've talked about this on the podcast in the past, is that with our reputation in the design and development community, we could often go into a major city and have a great first year because there was a lot of pent up demand for people who wanted to work with us, work at the company and as our clients. And that really led us astray in the beginning because we would go into -- We were expanding in three or four cities in the same year, and they were all super successful. So we were hiring teams to do all the work that we had. What we weren't doing was all the legwork we needed to do to build a sustainable local business. And so after the first batch of clients or the first batch and a half of clients we were done working with, we didn't have a sustainable pipeline of new local clients coming in. And so we learned a lot about how much we actually need to do when going into a new city to not only have that great first year but to have a great fifth year. And so we had a few failures where we had to close some studios just because we couldn't afford to operate them profitably, and that was pretty painful. I forget the episode numbers where we talked about it in the past, but we have. You can go back and listen to it. We can link them in the show notes.
\n\nLINDSEY: In addition to having the designers and the developers in the local studios, at least in recent years, we also had the structure that each city studio had a managing director. And a lot of those managing directors actually came from design and development themselves, but they were in charge of everything local including, and especially the sale, so finding new clients, onboarding them, the actual profitability of their studio, hiring. And again, as you mentioned, that was across all kinds of clients, all kinds of projects, but primarily locally based.
\n\nCHAD: And once we realized what it was going to take to build local businesses and make them successful, we refined that managing director position a lot. It wasn't one that we necessarily had in every studio, and so adding it or, in some cases, making the difficult decision to swap out the person in that with someone. Now that we understood what was necessary, making sure that someone in that position actually wanted that job and could do it. And that has been the journey we've been on; I would say for the past three or four years of making those changes, figuring it out so that when it was working well, each of the studios could work really well. And we've made a lot of progress with that.
\n\nBut one of the problems we had, so we have all the individual studios, and then we have the corporate-level people which are myself and you, marketing people, operations supporting all of the studios. And one of the things that we've struggled with over the years is being consistently profitable as we've grown or primarily operating break-even, which historically we were very comfortable doing because the whole leadership and shareholder of thoughtbot and ownership all worked here. We care a lot about paying people as much as we can possibly do and having the greatest benefits we possibly can while staying sustainable. And so it wasn't an issue. We're not running the company to generate lots of profits that then go to some investors or shareholders. So operating breakeven wasn't historically a problem, where it started to become a problem is as we grew and grew, the numbers became large enough that when things didn't go like we were expecting and we were managing to break even, then we would be very unprofitable very quickly if something didn't go the way that we were expecting, and it started to put the company at risk. So we started to focus more on profitability. And one of the things that was hurting profitability is that we were maintaining these small teams with offices, and just the overhead of a small team across many different geographies added overhead, which made it harder to be profitable because we needed to do everything in each individual location.
\n\nLINDSEY: Right. So now, really getting into those big challenges that were pressuring us to rethink how we operate, profitability and margin was a big one, which once you look at the breakdown in the numbers, the overhead of having the different studios was one. I think that also bleeds into the MDs have really challenging positions. They're responsible for a lot: they're responsible for the happiness and fulfillment of their teams; they're doing business development; they're doing client management; they're in charge of their entire revenue sheet. So that was another area that I think over time, we were consistently looking at; how do we improve this role? How do we make it so that folks can be successful here?
\n\nCHAD: Well, you can imagine, too, that designers and developers at thoughtbot we were seeing a similar thing, which is in a lot of ways, thoughtbot is modeled around me and other early developers. And I would often tell people I really like a lot of variety. I like to be working on one client and have huge scaling problems and challenges that we’re working at and growing their business to a whole nother level. And I like rotating off of that. And I then like working with a startup where we’re building the first version of the product. And for some people, no doubt that is exciting and challenging but worth it. And same thing on the sales side for managing directors, like being able to know how to effectively communicate and sell to the needs of each of those different kinds of projects. It's totally doable, but it adds to a lot of effort and angst being spent on just always trying to do everything, both on the development side and the managing director side, and it's hard. And that was one of the challenges that we were hearing either explicitly, or in a lot of cases, I don't think people realized it was happening. Everyone at thoughtbot is amazing and is great and very high execution level and all that stuff. And when you start getting challenges or feedback about poor performance from a great performer, you start to question why is that? What's going on? And it's an unrealistic expectation to have someone work in as part of a large enterprise for six months and then next week have them working on a brand new startup MVP that's got to go to production in six weeks and necessarily expect them to on a dime be able to change their approach to managing that product and making sure that it's successful.
\n\nAnd like you said, we want to put people in a position where they can be as successful as possible in everything that they do and having good people spin their wheels even if it's not a performance problem -- if there's a level of interest or excitement for one kind of client over another, we have a system of collecting feedback about what you want to work on and rating the incoming projects. But the primary determinator for what project you work on was which one was starting at the time your other project was ending; that was the primary determiner. So people effectively had no choice about the kind of project that they would work on. And that was a common complaint that we heard from people is that lack of control.
\n\nLINDSEY: And even though it wasn't supposed to happen, I think people did have reputations for a specialty, and the managing directors or whoever was staffing a project would seek out certain folks for certain projects. So even though we'd like to think of everyone as being able to handle any kind of project, and at a basic level, they could for sure, people with specialties were sought out for things. So that was already happening organically.
\n\nCHAD: And related but even going deeper on it, when we're maintaining small groups of people that are a complete replica of everything that is thoughtbot, and it's a group of 9 to 25 people, that ability to specialize or to have a career path that extends -- The company you're a part of feels like a 20-person company, and in a 20-person company, there's naturally not going to be tons of room for a big career ladder and lots of advancement or specialization. You will trend towards having a team of people that are more generalized and less hierarchical.
\n\nLINDSEY: Were there any other big challenges that come to mind for you when we were going into, like, let's revisit how we're structured?
\n\nCHAD: Well, there was one that touched on all of what we just talked about, and that was design and thoughtbot. And this is one thing that's super interesting. And I think I've talked about it on the show before. But we started from day one as a design and development company. We've always done design, and we've always had people on staff that did it. And one of the things that happened, though, is being the first consulting company in the world to switch to Ruby on Rails and being a big contributor to that community, and building a reputation through our open-source and through our blog and everything on the development side, that part of the business has grown. The development team is much larger than the design team. And a lot of people in the world view thoughtbot as oh, they're a Rails development company and really it wasn’t -- What we've always talked about is Rails is in service of the products that we want to design and build and creating great products. And so design has consistently been a challenge over the years as the reputation there isn't as big as on the development side.
\n\nAnd so what we saw in the individual studios were each individual studio needed to have a certain number of designers in order to feel like it had a design team and to be able to service the work that it did have locally and a management structure within that team that made sense. It had all those problems that we've just talked about. It was difficult to be profitable. It was difficult to have enough locals work for the two or three designers that were in a studio. And that specialization for what they would do and the kinds of projects that they would work on didn't always match the actual work that we had in a particular city at a time. And so because we were organizing the work that we did geographically, it wasn't uncommon for a designer to not have client work to do and that hurt the design team because we were attracting these great designers. And people are at thoughtbot because they want to build great products; they want to do great work, and then they join the team, and they're not doing it. And so design turnover has been much higher than other parts of the company for that and other related reasons.
\n\nLINDSEY: Okay. So I have a question for you because you and Diana started on this process before I was involved. So for you, when did reorganization first start?
\n\nCHAD: Well, as I alluded to at the top of the show, we had been talking about these kinds of things for a while. And I think you were part of most of those discussions as part of the management team where it'd be like, oh, should we break out design? And there wasn't really this clear -- Our strategy for the last many years has been strong local studios bound together by a common purpose and values. And we were feeling pretty good about that strategy. So these problems would crop up, and we would evaluate them in the context of that strategy and say, “No, we're reaffirming our strategy.” So it wasn't until having gone through 2020 and looking towards what 2021 was going to be like and saying, “We've got all these things that could be better. But one thing we know that needs to change is we can't go through another year of everyone planning for all of this to be temporary and to be back to the way that we were before.” We had already been breaking down the geographic barriers of studios because many projects were being staffed across offices at a much higher level than ever was before. And we had given everybody the thumbs up to move wherever they wanted, and we were going to support it. And we had about 20 people move from places where we had a studio to places where we didn't. And so it was really that that crystallized the need to -- I didn't know exactly what we were going to do going into it, but this feeling we need to do something because we can't stay in this limbo state for another year, which is what we were predicting in terms of how long we were going to be in the current operating mode. And even when it does come back, we now have 20+ people who don't live where we have offices anymore. So we can't go through this next period of time expecting things to just go back to the way that they were. So that was when we knew that we were going to do it. So I guess that was at the end of November or the beginning of December of 2020.
\n\nLINDSEY: It was exciting to have this push to do it. As you mentioned, we talked about different options before. Like Joe had come up with, I remember, a really clever squad-based team proposal. We’d thrown around, “Should we do an industry-based team structure?” But I think what was really missing was a push, a driver, you know, you have to. Because it was “Everything else is kind of working okay the way it is. What if this is a big mistake?” And so we wouldn't move forward. So we had these major drivers to decide on something and then went into what I think is a really successful and fascinating series of brainstorming and iteration sessions pretty quickly as a leadership team to hone in on what we've ended up rolling out.
\n\nCHAD: And I think one of the things that I appreciated, and it was Diana who did this, was saying, “Let's make sure we reaffirm or revisit our values and purpose as part of this process.” And when you have a company that is driven by values and purpose, it's important when you're making big decisions to revisit them so that they're helping guide what you actually do so that you don't get off track. And we anticipated that the change was going to be big enough that maybe even the value -- We need to be open to the possibility that the value or the purpose would change or should change in the process or had already changed and we hadn't reflected them. And so that was a part of it, like expecting to go into it doing that. And then we can't have a...or maybe we could, but we decided it wasn't realistic to have a 100-person meeting. So again, for a lot of the things we do at thoughtbot, we treat thoughtbot like a product in and of itself. And we use the tools and techniques as designers and developers on that product itself. And so we did survey the team to get their thoughts around purpose and values and around what it had been like to work remotely and just a few questions in general about how they felt about projects and work and that kind of thing. And then, we took that information that we had gathered from the team into the design thinking and brainstorming sessions with the leadership team, which was the managing directors across all the studios and the design and development directors, and then the corporate leadership.
\n\nLINDSEY: And I'd say at the forefront of these exercises and decisions was how do we ensure thoughtboters are fulfilled? And also, how do we provide the most value to clients, and where those things intersect, how could we potentially reorganize ourselves? And these sessions are some of my favorite things to do, even though they can be maybe stressful times that are driving these exercises. But doing these kinds of really open brainstorming and design thinking exercises, problem-solving with our team, which is full of the smartest, most thoughtful, kindest people, I find incredibly fulfilling and really drive amazing outcomes. And I’m kind of sappy, I guess here. But I start to feel like, oh my gosh, I know why our clients love working with these folks. It's a really powerful exercise, and you come up with really amazing ideas and outcomes.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. I had a thought as you were saying that, though, that I agree, but I think you could do exactly the same thing but not be committed to actually making a change. If you were just doing it, it would drive me crazy. [chuckles] And I think that that's an important component is that we went into it saying something is going to change; we don't know what it is. We define problems, and then we come up with solutions to those problems, and we are going to make a change. And that was the difference between the previous we're all sort of venting or trying to do it in a leadership meeting. And I think off-sites and brainstorming sessions and that kind of thing get a bad rap, but when they're actually necessary and when they're done well, and when you have a group of people that are committed to improvement and actually making a change, they can be really great.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. And I think you all had set out a goal. You and Diana had set a goal schedule of how this would work, which is coming up with ideas as an extended leadership team which is maybe like 18 people. And doing that, we booked a half-day, maybe a bit more; obviously, this is all virtual. And we'd have different sessions where we were breaking out into smaller groups of maybe five people randomized each time and working through a specific challenge or coming up with a specific proposal, then reconvening as the extended leadership team and running through those proposals. So that would be the first individual day. And then you and Diana went off with those proposals and ideas to make some executive decisions around what you thought made sense and then re-proposed to the extended leadership team for feedback and iteration with the goal that every week we're getting closer to the final, final thing that we're going to roll out to the team. And also, by the way, how do we roll that out?
\n\nCHAD: I'm curious from your perspective how that worked because we didn't go into the process expecting it to work that way. Well, I guess we did. When Diana and I were planning it, though, we initially started from a different place, and then we realized this is going to be too difficult for a group to converge on, and it probably does need us to go and force a convergence basically and then go back and make a proposal. But I'm curious what you think about that.
\n\nLINDSEY: Oh, I think you absolutely have to do that.
\n\nCHAD: [chuckles] Okay.
\n\nLINDSEY: And that's the way I operate, too, even from a marketing perspective, is to take input and ideas and see what folks think. But at the end of the day, you can't make a group decision; someone has to make an executive decision based on what they've heard. So I thought that worked well. Plus, I was in the group that came up with the idea for the reorg we chose. I don't want to brag about it, but it was a great decision.
\n\nCHAD: [laughs]
\n\nLINDSEY: So yeah, I guess getting into what that actually was, what we ended up deciding and have moved forward with was breaking out the teams, so keeping a team-based structure but no longer geographically-based but actually each team based on the types of clients and client projects that they're providing services for. And obviously, those services are tailored to the type of client projects.
\n\nCHAD: Shall we go through them? [chuckles]
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, we should go through them.
\n\nCHAD: [chuckles] Okay.
\n\nLINDSEY: So the naming came after the fact, but we also had a lot of fun with branding and naming these teams and went all-in on the rocket theme, as you'll hear. So we've got four main service teams. The first one deals with the earliest stage products kind of pre-product so validating ideas, and that is thoughtbot Ignite. The next team deals with more MVP, V1 but not really a quick project, like longer MVP types of projects, and that is thoughtbot Lift Off. The third team deals with more established companies and teams who are elevating their product and teams to the next level that's thoughtbot Boost. And then finally, we've introduced more DevOps and maintenance services under thoughtbot Mission Control, and they also manage our PR reviews as a service, reviews by thoughtbot. So that's the quick overview of the four teams you've got Ignite, Lift Off, Boost, and Mission Control.
\n\nCHAD: And the interesting thing about the team structure and what each team was going to focus on is that once we made the decision that this was -- there wasn't really a lot of question around what those teams would be. We knew these different project types existed. It was something that we have documented, and it's in our marketing. We have positioning statements already. A lot of these client types were already created. We have an internal consulting class that people take, about 20 people a quarter take it. And it goes over the different kinds of clients that we work with and the different needs that they have and how to work with them. And it was split along these lines. Now there were some small details on the edges to be worked out, but what was difficult was making the decision to do this. Once we made the decision to do it, what those teams would be was pretty clear.
\n\nLINDSEY: Obviously, I love it. From a marketing perspective, breaking out these different types of clients makes so much sense. You're talking to them about different sets of needs, goals, pain points, so there's great focus and clarity there. And then that trickles to everyone's job. The managing directors now are responsible for one of these service-based teams. The designers and developers themselves are specializing and really enjoy that type of work. And in the breakout group during these brainstorming sessions that I was in, I remember when we were starting from this place of anything goes, I was asking the directors in my group, “What do you think makes our team fulfilled? Are they more interested in a specific industry? Are they more interested in a specific technology? Are they more interested in a type of client?” And the directors in my group all said, “I really think it is the type of project that provides fulfillment in different ways for different folks.” So we took that as a starting point, and then it was, “Okay, well, what are those different types of clients if we could put them into four or five buckets?”
\n\nCHAD: And Ignite and Lift Off are really interesting to me because it's a good example of where the lines can be effectively drawn. So you alluded to it already, Ignite is for the earliest of products and teams where the idea hasn't even been validated yet, and they need our help determining whether it even makes sense to proceed at all. And then when we do validate it, the size of what we're building and the speed at which we're going to be able to get to market falls under 12 weeks. It will typically fall in the 8 to 10-week range where we've gone from that concept that we validated to a launch product in the hands of users. And they’re ruthlessly prioritized. They're usually pretty straightforward, both on the tech side but also in what we need to build. And I think one mistake we've made in the past is taking large finance and healthcare companies and these large companies that we also work with and trying to do the same thing that we do for those Ignite clients for them and ending up in a place where maybe we haven't done as good a job, or the project doesn't go as well because we're trying to squeeze it into a place where it doesn't fit. And that's what Lift Off is; it’s creating a space where it fits, realizing that a client who comes to us with this massive need it's not massive because they're doing too much. It's massive because they have a big problem that they want to solve, usually for a business that already exists, and it's a new product within that business. Maybe they've even already validated it. And the integrations that it's going to have, the systems it needs to talk to, the level of scale that it's going to have is different than is going to be possible in 8 to 12 weeks. And when we try to squeeze it in there, it's not going to be successful. So Lift-Off is giving a space for those projects to thrive in a way.
\n\nAnd I also think it's one of those things where it's going to have an impact on our sales too because what would happen previously is that one of those clients might come to us and we're furiously trying to squeeze it down. And how a client perceives that is potentially like, “Oh, they don't know how to do what we need them to do, or they don't want to do it. Or they think our idea is bad because they're saying we need to validate it, and we've already validated it. We have an existing business that we're building this off of,” or something like that. And it causes us to lose that work, which we would otherwise love to have. And now a client like that comes and is talking to a managing director who gets the needs of that kind of project and a team of people that are going to work on it that understand that there's a process to run through and it's going to take six months or a year. We're going to launch along the way, and then we're going to continue to grow the product from there. It's just a different feeling all around, which I think is going to have a positive impact on our ability to actually grow those parts of the business.
\n\nLINDSEY: And Lift Off by nature of working on those health, tech, and financial products is also dealing with highly regulated spaces, which is another reason why those projects are necessarily longer and more complex and lend themselves well to someone who's dealt with it before.
\n\nCHAD: Right. Another thing, and we touched on this a little bit earlier with Boost, is a big part of our business historically is that those clients that have built-in Rails along the way, they've built a super successful business. They're scaling a lot. They're growing their team. They need technical leadership, experience mentorship, and those projects tend to be very development-heavy as well. Like, we have clients where we have four or five developers working with them and no designers, and it caused the design and the development team to be very lopsided. But we really liked that work, and it's very valuable to clients. And so same thing with Boost, Boost instead of that being something which is pushed off into the back where like, oh, well, it's not the project-based integrated team of designers and developers launching a new product, and so it's not our ideal work. It gives a space where that can be our ideal work, and the kinds of people who want to work on those kinds of projects with that level of experience and need feel like they are able to do that on a team that is focused on that. And that team doesn't necessarily need to have a design team that works or looks the same as every other place at thoughtbot. And it creates a place which can focus on what it needs to do in the best way possible that is the most fulfilling to the team and success for the customers. And it looks different than thoughtbot has historically looked, and that's okay. Because actually, when you pick it apart, it's not that different; it’s just taking the 20% of all of the thoughtbot studios where the 20% felt like something that wasn't quite right and putting it all together to make 100% of something that feels right.
\n\nLINDSEY: And from the design perspective, Boost design is a lot around optimizing what already is in place or helping take care of design debt that's been neglected, making sure design and development are talking to each other and thinking about those processes to make them talk to each other better. Whereas Lift Off and Ignite are more introducing design or design processes or design frameworks like putting your design system together or thinking about your accessibility processes, those kinds of activities. And then Mission Control is probably the newest to thoughtbot in terms of services that we're offering clients.
\n\nCHAD: And within Mission Control, there are two big areas that are different, so the first is maintenance. So we historically have been project-based at thoughtbot. And what that would mean is that well, it doesn't necessarily mean -- So historically, project-based plus everyone working on one project at a time, I think the combination of those two things meant that what we mostly did was we help people set up their own team of people who are going to take over from what we had done after we launched the first version of the product and level it up from there. And most of our clients got to the point where the goal was to become self-sufficient. And we also would meet people who had already built something and were just looking for our expertise to help take care of it but not necessarily have enough work for someone full-time. And for both of those clients, we didn't really have a solution for them. And so that's where the maintenance team in Mission Control comes into play because it's a team of people who have opted into splitting their time across multiple clients. The contracts are different where they're paying a monthly recurring maintenance fee for us to take care of certain things every month: security upgrades, patches, small bug fixes, and features. Maybe they even have a team on staff where they're doing the majority of the development work, but they just want our support in helping things go well.
\n\nAnd also, you mentioned the pull request review service that's within Mission Control as well where we have a separate service where you can sign up, and you just request a pull request review from thoughtbot, and then one of our team members goes on and gives you feedback on that pull request. So that's one part of what's happening in Mission Control is that maintenance work. And then the other is DevOps, and infrastructure is an area where the majority of projects that we worked on across all of thoughtbot were deployed to Heroku or the teams had their own DevOps and infrastructure people and creating a specialization of that for a handful of projects for an individual studio that has that need, over the course of a year, never made sense. But once we started to do it and we took a more global view to it and said, “Across all of our clients, what is the need either met or unmet and what might we be able to do? And where is the interest of our team?” It became clear we could offer -- like, our clients need us to do this sometimes. And for the clients who need us to do it, we want to be there for them. We want to do it. And creating a team of people that is global, that can do it across time zones 24/7 is also one of the needs of the clients, and having that team span those geographies is one way we've been able to do that when historically we would have shied away from that.
\n\nLINDSEY: And speaking of the team's interest in different areas, different services for the rollout of this new organization, we, by and large, had folks opt in to what they wanted to do even as far as the managing directors picking what team that they were going to head up.
\n\nCHAD: So we said, “These are what the teams are going to be,” and we did a company-wide presentation. And then, we asked people to submit their first and second choice. And then we made the decision around which of the managing directors were going to do what and then we announced that to everybody. Am I saying this the right way? Did we announce the managing directors before we asked everybody or just before the deadline was up?
\n\nLINDSEY: I think it was trickled in. At first, it was “What team do you want to be on?” But then, as that's going on behind the scenes, you and Diana are having discussions with the managing directors around where they want to be. And then, as that information became available, you shared that with the team also to help with decisions, same with the design and development directors. I think it was announced the design and development directors chose the teams they wanted to be on and lead. And then, once that was finalized, that was also shared with the team as they're voting on where they want to head.
\n\nCHAD: And the majority of people got their first choice and the majority of people the person who was their manager also chose a similar choice. And so there was a lot of change but not too much churn, I guess is the way I would put it. We were able to do it in a way which I think people felt like they had a choice. And I think going into it; people were afraid of that like okay, am I going to make a choice here and then end up on a team of people I've never worked with before? That was not the case. Now there's certainly a big blending of the teams, particularly Boston and New York were the biggest studios. And so they make up the majority of the people in each of the Boost and Lift Off. But people are working with people that they have worked with before.
\n\nLINDSEY: And it turns out the people they didn't work with before are also awesome, also, very cool.
\n\nCHAD: [chuckles] So much effort over the years spent -- that strategy of replicating what was great about thoughtbot into other geographies is true. And so the standards that we had for hiring, and the kinds of people we hire, and the screening for values fit, and all that stuff led us to a place where everyone at thoughtbot is great. And so I wasn't really concerned about that, but other people may have been because there's always a fear of the unknown.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah, definitely. I'm trying to think if there were other rollout things that might be interesting.
\n\nCHAD: Well, one of the interesting things it's a little in the details. On the surface, that is the team, and those are the services we offer. But we also needed to contend with the fact that we are in the U.S. and the UK, and we didn't really feel like it makes sense to have those teams span 10+ time zones, that that would be too far of a stretch. And it would affect people's fulfillment on the team as well as the services we are able to deliver. So these services that we offer are actually fulfilled by two…do we have a word for it? [chuckles]
\n\nLINDSEY: Geographies?
\n\nCHAD: Geographies, yeah, I guess.
\n\nLINDSEY: There are two geographies that we ended up naming Launchpad 1 and Launchpad 2, because rockets.
\n\nCHAD: So Launchpad 1 is all of the Americas, and Launchpad 2 is Europe, Middle East, and Africa. And so they provide all of those services in those places. But they have teams that are formed across the whole geographic region. And then eventually, if all goes well, we'll have Launchpad 3, and that'll be [chuckles] the other side of the world.
\n\nLINDSEY: I've got the icon ready and waiting. So I guess timing-wise, this all happened...rollout was by the beginning of the year, right? January?
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. One of the things is more people took more time off between the December Holidays and New Year's and everything than they have ever done before, and we needed it. Everyone needed it. So we weren't able to finalize what team everyone was on and have a conversation about that with everybody before they saw it in a message somewhere, which we really wanted to do. So we ended up not being able to finish all of that before the end of the year. And so it rolled into the first couple of weeks of January as people came back, and we were able to talk to them. And then I think we made the internally public announcements about all the teams that everyone was going to be on, and we did a formal kickoff. What was it? January 8th or something like that.
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. And I think that's actually a really good point to bring up is the communication to the individuals. It was important for them to hear it one-on-one from their manager before anything was announced more broadly and then to transition to their team if their manager was changing, which in a lot of cases, it didn't, but sometimes it did. Having one-on-one-on-one transition meetings to really ease that move was also important to not make this really abrupt and unnecessarily stressful in a time that is already very stressful for reasons we know.
\n\nCHAD: And even if someone's direct manager wasn't changing, it was very likely that their director would change. And so, in those cases, we still did a one-on-one-on-one, but it was with the new director sitting in as well as a skip-level one-on-one on-one. And we did it quickly, but it was important to make it happen quickly.
\n\nLINDSEY: And it was also important to not abruptly change on the clients because obviously, we weren't doing a full stop of client work just because we're doing some reshuffling internally. So that was phased, and we didn't even really make it a big deal to the clients because that probably would have just added confusion as we were making these changes.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, definitely. And we made the decision that we weren't going to just arbitrarily say, “This person is now on this team; therefore, they have to leave this project,” so we made that decision. And we have as natural points in the project for a rotation to happen. People will move to a project; if there's a mismatch between the project that they're on and the team that they're on, they'll move at a natural point. But the reality was that a lot of people also chose -- It's not like we have 57 different project types; we have three. And so a lot of people were already working on the project type that they chose just because the odds were good that they were. There's been very little customer-facing impact to it. So it's early days. It's March now, so it's been a couple of months. But how do you think it's going, or where do you think the growing pains are?
\n\nLINDSEY: Good question. I think there's been more of a smooth transition than there have been growing pains, first of all, which has been nice. I think folks have been pleasantly surprised by really enjoying their new teams and new team members. I think growing pains-wise, on the operations side, obviously we've had to...I think we’re still in the process of figuring out how to best pipe certain kinds of inquiries into the right team and managing director. Sometimes it's a no-brainer. They're like, “I need to validate this idea.” It's like boom, “You're off to Dawn for Ignite, and you’re going to have a conversation there.” But if they come in and they say, “I'm working on an MVP, and we don't know if that MVP is one of the really fast ones or one of the more complex ones,” then it's like, okay, is this going to Dawn or Emily?
\n\nCHAD: And we historically didn't need to have any handoffs because one person was able…one person and team; it was based on geography. So we knew exactly who was going to be having that conversation with them. So operationally, it's actually one thing we didn't touch. So no one was let go in this big reorg. There was a position for everyone, I guess, if they wanted it. But one area we haven't touched on is anyone who was local, who was in a support role moved up into the corporate level in a support or operations role. And there weren't that many of those people, but the office manager in Boston is now full-time in people operations. And the office manager in New York City is now the operations manager for the whole team, the whole company. Kelly, who was doing business development just in Boston, is now helping across all of thoughtbot, which is really good at using her skill set across the whole company. I think that that's good.
\n\nAnd now, like you said, figuring out how to support everyone across the teams is a little bit of whether it be the operations manager figuring out how to get people computers when we hire new people to like what you were saying around inquiries coming in and making sure that they're sent to the right person. The thing that has made it more challenging for me is that just a confluence of events at the time where we were making some of these changes. And now it has made my involvement different than I was originally expecting them to be. I expected to be a little bit more involved in certain things, but because I've been pulled into several important client projects and was working on client work at the time that then expanded very rapidly, it's been challenging for me to manage the workload. But in some ways, there's a bright side to it, which is it's giving other people the space to operate without me, which I think can be good because I'm very confident in what everyone's bringing to the table. And when you go through a big period of change like this, if everyone was deferring to what I thought as the founder or looking for me for answers or permission to do something, I think that we would suffer for it. And so being forced in a way to not be available for everything that's going on is a way for people to have more ownership over it and not be relying on me, and I know that they can do it.
\n\nLINDSEY: Cool.
\n\nCHAD: So we never said what the new purpose was. So maybe we'll just talk a little bit about that, and then we'll use that as a wrapping up point.
\n\nLINDSEY: Sounds good.
\n\nCHAD: So I mentioned earlier our purpose had been we believe that there's a better way to work. There's always a better way to work, and we want to find it and share it with as many people as possible. We had written down that purpose several years ago, like a decade ago, I think. And I believe a good purpose describes what is the underlying motivation for the company and the people at it. And when we did that survey of people, a few of the questions we asked touched on it. And it wasn't that surprising to me about -- one of the threads in that was this idea of positive contributions to the world, making sure that the things that we work on and do have positive contributions to the world and that being a motivating factor. Like, that's part of what makes the team tick and what they want to be doing and are fulfilled by and that kind of thing. And so we incorporated that into the purpose. And so we adjusted the wording a little bit to make that incorporation, but we ended up that we believe that it's always possible to continuously learn and improve the way people work while building higher quality products that make positive contributions to the world.
\n\nThis resonated with me in a way that -- it's a little bit more wordy, and that's not why it resonates with me. [chuckles] Specifically, our previous purpose of we believe that there's always a better way to work and we want to find it and share it with as many people as possible lacked one thing that I think a good purpose can incorporate, which is what is a clear idea of what the alternative is like, what you're fighting against, or what you're trying to improve. It's there in the previous purpose. So, in theory, there maybe are people out there who believe that there's not always a better way to work that they've achieved it or something like that or that they have particular practices which aren't great. But it's not explicit or really even implicit in the purpose. And the new purpose we believe that it's possible to continuously learn and improve the way people work while building higher quality products and make positive contributions to the world. You can point to someone who might believe the opposite of that, that you can't build higher quality products that make positive contributions to the world while also continuously learning and improving the way that you work and everything, that to build higher quality products or make positive contributions to the world, you might need to compromise on the values of continuous improvement and learning. And our new purpose makes a statement that you don't need to compromise in order to achieve that result, and I like that about it.
\n\nLINDSEY: I really like the addition of talking about the kinds of positive products because I think once you know thoughtbot at all, you know that that's underlying the purpose but take out the guesswork, just tell the folks. All right. Well, I think that's a good place to stop. I'm glad we didn't even go into the remote because there's obviously a lot to talk about.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. So we'll talk about that next time?
\n\nLINDSEY: Yeah. We're going to talk about what changes we've made in going completely remote and what that looks like, what we think it looks like for the future.
\n\nCHAD: Cool.
\n\nLINDSEY: So you can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm
\n\nCHAD: If you have questions or comments, and we'd love to hear them, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm, or you can find me on Twitter @cpytel.
\n\nLINDSEY: And you can find me on Twitter @Lindsey3D. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot.
\n\nCHAD: It's good to be back. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
\n\nLINDSEY: It's so good to be back. Stay tuned.
\n\nThis podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. Thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
","summary":"Chad and Lindsey take listeners behind the scenes and go deep into the nitty-gritty of recent thoughtbot company changes driven by the pandemic and the organization's need (and desire!) to go fully remote – all while reaffirming and revisiting the organization's values, mission, and purpose as part of the process.","date_published":"2021-05-20T05:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/6cd5c845-ce3b-473a-97d0-edc8fa480c0d.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":78304297,"duration_in_seconds":3922}]},{"id":"668f385f-37ad-4365-b18b-7e2c93d723f6","title":"392: Better Together with New CEO of thoughtbot, Diana Bald","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/392","content_text":"Chad is joined by Diana Bald, the new CEO of thoughtbot, to discuss her background, the organizational changes to the leadership of the company, and the reasoning behind them.\n\n\nDiana on Twitter\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nTranscript:\n\nCHAD PYTEL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And today, I'm joined by the new CEO of thoughtbot, Diana Bald. Thanks for joining me, Diana. \n\nDIANA BALD: Hi, Chad. This is so fun. This is so exciting. I've only done one podcast before this, so I'm excited. \n\nCHAD: Well, don't worry. You can still be CEO of thoughtbot even if you're not a podcaster. [laughter]\n\nDIANA: Okay, that's great to know. \n\nCHAD: So it's been several months now. So I want to go back and talk about how we arrived here. But I'm curious, how are you feeling now? What does it feel like? \n\nDIANA: It feels great. I think I'm getting more and more comfortable every day, which is amazing. And I think the year has gotten off to a great start, so that's helping me feel more comfortable as well. So far, so good. \n\nCHAD: So for folks who are listening, I'm sure they're wondering who are you? [chuckles] Let's give the audience a little peek into your background and how you arrived at thoughtbot, and the role you originally had.\n\nDIANA: Great. How far back do you want me to go? \n\nCHAD: As far as back as you're comfortable. \n\nDIANA: Okay. I actually was really interested in technology at a younger age. I put myself through undergrad and grad school while I was doing tech roles. I trained lawyers on how to move from the analog world into the digital world. That was one of my very first jobs at a law firm. And then, shortly after that, I did webmaster work when I was putting myself through MBA school. It was a very different world than it is now. This is way back when the internet was really just kicking off; it was 1998 to 2001, around that time. When I graduated from MBA school, I was recruited into Univision into their leadership pipeline, which was very much focused on business development. But my very first project there was web integration, integrating the univision.com with their TV and radio. That was when I started to move away from technology. I was there for ten years. I had a variety of different roles, a really fun job. I got to experience a lot of different roles, lived in a lot of different cities. I spent a lot of time in Philadelphia, where I actually launched a television station in Spanish, which was really fun. And then I came to New York. \n\nAfter Univision, I spent four years in the advertising and marketing world. I spent two years with IPG at ID Media, which was a direct marketing agency. And then two years at MDC Partners at an agency called TargetCast, which later became Assembly, which was more media buying and planning. And then, when I left there, I went to Liberty Mutual for three years. And at Liberty Mutual, I fell back in love with technology. I missed it. I was doing a lot of strategic partnership opportunities with really interesting companies that were doing brand new business models and disrupting insurance, and there was a lot of exposure to telematics and IoT. And it was just calling me back, and I was like, I got to get back to tech. And somehow, I don't recall exactly how, but I found you. You and I chatted, and then I fell in love with thoughtbot [chuckles], and then after that, the rest is history. \n\nCHAD: You joined us as the Managing Director of the New York City studio. I want to say that was a position we were advertising for, and you applied to it.\n\nDIANA: Yeah. \n\nCHAD: And one of the things that really stood out when I first met you and as we've got to know each other and work together is the variety of experience that you had because I've only ever done what I do, which has its own strengths. So the fact that I started freelancing web design and development in high school and have continued to do that now for 25 years is a strength, but it's also, aside from the jobs I had as a dishwasher or the checkout person at the grocery store, this is literally all I've done. And the variety of experience you have not only helps thoughtbot be better, but I also think it positions you well for our business. In consulting, you need to be unflappable in a lot of circumstances, and I think you're good at that. You're good at maintaining an even keel and talking with customers and dealing with difficult situations and that kind of thing.\n\nDIANA: In some ways, I'm envious that you have been able to stick with development the entire time; that’s really, really cool. But in other ways, I can see what you're talking about because I do feel like I have had a variety of roles and seen a lot of different situations. And every one of these situations has had their challenges. And they've all been generalist roles where I've dealt with clients, and then those clients had challenges in their respective industries. So I've really learned a lot about keeping things in perspective, if you will, more so than people who are in a role for a particular time and see that aspect of it. I'm seeing things from a bird's eye view much more often because maybe I've seen the situation in the past only it was in this industry, or I've seen this situation in the past, but it had these characters. And it's like I can carry that knowledge over to thoughtbot, which has been really helpful.\n\nCHAD: So the managing director role, I think I've described it on the show before, and it’s sort of the CEO of the individual studio. That’s the way that it works. You oversaw the individual studio, and you were responsible for business development and the whole P&L of the studio, the whole business. Going back to first joining thoughtbot, what was a surprise to you?\n\nDIANA: How comfortable I felt. [chuckles] I felt like, oh, I'm home. I felt like, oh, there you are. I've been looking for you all my life kind of feeling. I don't know how to explain it. It just felt really good. Like, okay, these are problems. I like these problems. Or this is really joyful. I felt like I was actually in my element for probably the first time in my career, although I've had some jobs where I felt pretty much in my comfort zone, but thoughtbot took it to a totally new level. And I don't know if it's thoughtbot, or the role, or the combination of the two, or maybe it's me where I am now in my life and just having had all these different jobs and experiences. Maybe it's all the above.\n\nCHAD: One of the interesting things that's been a journey for thoughtbot not only just with you but with several people is up until a few years ago, we hadn't, aside from some office managers or people operations, we hadn't had people in direct client-facing roles who are not designers and developers. And it comes from a place of fear and skepticism about that, historically for us, for me personally. And I don't think I was wrong per se; I was just misguided. And I've learned over the years that when you're afraid of something, there can be some truth in what you're afraid of, but you should let that fear guide you into making good decisions and not let it hold you back from doing anything. And that's what we were doing: we were so afraid of what adding non-designers and developers to the consulting side of the business would mean for us as designers and developers that we didn't do it at all, instead of trying to find people who would be a great fit, who would be great advocates for us, a great fit for the company. And once we figured out the recipe for doing that, I feel like not only did it make thoughtbot better and stronger on the business side, but it made thoughtbot better overall. One of the things we strive for is an inclusive, diverse environment, and that doesn't just mean the obvious things. It also means having different perspectives and experiences that a group can bring to the table that makes the results better and more enjoyable, and more fulfilling to work in. And I think that you've been successful in bringing that to the company, and it felt good and not only you but the other people that we've added in the managing director roles. And that kind of thing that brings that different experience and different skill sets to the table has made thoughtbot better, I think. So, thank you. \n\nDIANA: Thank you for letting us bring it to the table; not every place lets us do that. But you've set up a culture, to your credit, that I think brings the best out in people. And I think you've enabled that to happen, so thank you right back. [chuckles] \n\nCHAD: There's another angle to that, which has been on my mind, which is what we were doing in the past was basically forcing designers and developers to do some of those things and potentially setting them up to fail because it wasn't a strength, or it wasn't an area that they were actually interested in. They were just doing it out of love for thoughtbot or wanting to see us succeed. When you put people in a position where they're going to struggle or where they're going to not succeed, that's doing nobody a favor as well. And so that's in part been on my mind because as we've been reorganizing the company and everything, I think that's part of the lens at which we're looking at it: what can we do to make things easier to make us more successful as a team and as individuals in our day-to-day work, too?\n\nDIANA: I think that there's a lot there. I feel like in every designer; there is a business person because they're breaking things down. They're deconstructing constantly, and they're asking tons of questions that business people just naturally ask. And then developers are super creative, and they're problem solvers, and they do the same thing. I feel like it's a combination of art and science. Everybody's got their science part of it, the developers, designers, even people like me with a business development background. But then when you do enough of that thing, and you're meshed with the people who bring a complementary skill, then you're able to do the art side of it together that you wouldn't get solo, for instance. If you just put a bunch of business development people in a room together, it's very different than when you mix them up with a designer who brings that side of thinking and a developer who brings their thinking. I think together we're better than siloed.\n\nCHAD: So when it came to the actual transition and having you step into the role of CEO and move into the COO role, and I want to be relatively honest that it wasn't some grand plan that I executed over a period of a long time. And if that had been the case, I think we would have gone about it a little bit differently and certainly with more transparency for the rest of the thoughtbot team. For the listeners, the path there was that Matt Jankowski, a long-time COO and member of the leadership team at thoughtbot, was getting ready to move on. And that wasn't the only thing that was changing. Obviously, 2020 was a big year; it was a difficult year. And so the combination of all of those things and me looking at what does the leadership team at thoughtbot look like going forward? Who is going to fill Matt's responsibilities? That kind of thing, and really breaking down those roles and responsibilities and coming to the conclusion that the CEO role and particularly business development are inherently coupled at the company right now and that we have a lot of things we need to do in front of us and who is the best person to be able to do that? And feeling like it might not be me. \n\nAnd the things that I was going to be taking over from Matt operationally were in and of themselves a significant area. I love thoughtbot. I love helping it work better and being close to the client work. And now that we've built an incredible team of managing directors, that was another thing that was on my mind that I've built that team. I'm really proud of that team, and it's an awesome team. But who's going to be the better mentor and leader for that team going forward now that we've got a team of experienced people who are slightly different than just designers and developers and who have different needs and jobs? And again, the best person for that might not be me. And so those were all the thoughts that were going through my head. And then things came together really quickly. \n\nDIANA: Yeah, they sure did. [laughter] They sure did turn around and come together really quickly. First, I have a lot of admiration for you, in particular, like the way that you're able to take a step back and look at things objectively and not let ego get in the way of things because that's a big deal. Not everybody is able to do that, Chad. And I've worked at a lot of places, as we talked about, and I've seen ego get in the way. And I've seen ego get in the way in a bad way. It's not always a friend. Sometimes it could be a friend, sometimes it's a very powerful friend to have, but sometimes ego can hurt. And so there's a lot of wisdom to that. \n\nAnd in terms of the speed at which things came together, yes, I agree; I think that's a reflection of the times we're living in. We're in a time where things can change on a dime, and we just have to be able to pivot and be able to reassess the landscape, see what we have to do, make the necessary modifications and then go. And I'm really proud of both of us and the team of the managing directors and everyone at thoughtbot for our ability to quickly adjust and do what we had to do during the really crazy year that 2020 was. \n\nCHAD: I spent the majority of 2020 in intense survival mode. And so it wasn't until we were through that period that I realized how much it had affected me, whether it be in burnout ways but also in terms of realizing that we were going to survive. At the end of March, early April, it was the most difficult time. We saw a good portion of our business…new projects were starting, people doing new things. At the end of March, early April, a lot of that new stuff got completely put on hold as the whole world recalibrated. And so we saw a significant decrease in revenue in those months, and we didn't know where it was going to go. So we were very proactive about redoing our numbers and making sure that we weren't going to go out of business and didn't go out of business. And once we were able to do that and to stabilize things, we still needed to spend a significant amount of effort for the rest of the year, working really hard to make sure that we made things less bad. And that was pretty difficult. \n\nBut my main point or my takeaway from the year and part of what has led to this transition is the realization that I don't really have any plans to go anywhere per se, but rather than be like, oh, I need to keep my position forever, it's more we're coming up on the 20-year mark of thoughtbot. When we came up on the 10-year mark of thoughtbot, we asked ourselves the question, “Okay, it's ten years. We're not really going anywhere. What do the next ten years look like?” And so, as we continue to move forward as a company, I think the horizon tends to expand. And it's like, okay, we're coming up on 20 years. What do the next 20 years look like? So, I don't really have any plans to go anywhere, but am I going to be doing this and the same thing in the same way for another 20 years? Probably not. [laughs] I'll be getting close to retirement age. So I always have come to work every day, just trying to create the place that I want to work, doing the kinds of things that I want to do. And I think that motivates everyone at thoughtbot. That's how we all come to work every day. And I think it's one of the things that leads to that culture that we have. And I think this transition has been part of that expanding horizon part of thinking about being a resilient company that is going to last for a long time.\n\nDIANA: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's one of the things I love most about thoughtbot is just that we're intentional and that we do want to make this a place that people want to work at. \n\nCHAD: So we asked for questions from the audience, and one of the gists of the episode was what was the actual way that we communicated this change to the company?\n\nDIANA: So I think we went about it in multiple ways. You notified people in the early stages. And then, we also went about a transition period, which was like the second phase of it. I think you can speak best to the first phase. \n\nCHAD: Yeah, one of the first things I did was once the decision was made; I met one-on-one with the rest of the C-level team and looped them in on it. And then I think the next thing was crafting a company-wide message that went out to the whole company. I'm not sure if there was much in between those two things. \n\nDIANA: Yeah, I think that's what it was.\n\nCHAD: Now, one of the interesting things, as I was saying earlier, is that part of the change that was happening at the same time was Matt transitioning out of the company. And so I think in some ways that made the whole thing a little bit more understandable for people. There was change already happening, and they were together. I think in retrospect, in other ways, or at least one thing I wanted to make sure people understood, is that the COO role and the CEO role going forward aren't necessarily the same as what they were in the past. And so even though Matt was leaving and I was taking on that title, that doesn't necessarily mean I was just going to be doing everything that he did in the same way that he did it. And the same is true for you in the CEO role. \n\nDIANA: Yeah, we bring our own personalities and our own strengths to the roles. We give each other room to do that. I know that you like to be involved in the development. You like to be involved in sales as well. It's important that things change, that things don't stay the same. I think it's important to evolve and to bring in different viewpoints and change the roles a little bit if we need to, which I think we've done and we're doing.\n\nCHAD: And so someone asked, “Were people surprised?” I think people were very surprised, don't you? \n\nDIANA: [chuckles] Yeah, I think so. I think I was surprised, [laughter] starting with me. Yeah, everybody was. But it's understandable; you’re the founder. And I think change does bring an element of surprise in and of itself.\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I think we got to that place very quickly. But in retrospect, knowing where we ended up, I could have envisioned more proactively saying, “This is a transition,” not even necessarily with you specifically just like “maybe next year I won't be CEO,” like giving people some clue that a transition of some kind might be coming. But I didn't know myself, and so it wasn't really practical to give people. But I think in retrospect, it would have been nice to make it more clear that that's the kind of thing that might be on the table. \n\nDIANA: I also feel, though, that there is an element like we were speaking about earlier that sometimes things change and they change quickly, and we can see more of that happening in the future. I don't think that's going to stop. I think that actually might increase to some extent. So it's great if we have an advance notice of things, but sometimes there isn't the room or the opportunity to do so.\n\nCHAD: So then you moved into the role. We had a transition period. What was that like for you? \n\nDIANA: It was interesting because I thought, well, let me bring things that I always wanted my CEOs to do but never did. And let me not do things that I saw my CEOs doing that I didn't like. [chuckles] Let me start there. And one of the things that I really enjoy, and I think it's part of the culture here, is just being a little goofy and a little silly and just having that freedom. And I actually think that that makes for a better, healthier environment. And I guess I wished my prior CEOs were a little bit less uptight, maybe, if you will, a little bit more goofy, a little bit more fun. And so I think bringing that even more because you already bring that but really doing it together. [chuckles]\n\nCHAD: Well, I have to be honest, I used to be a lot more goofy than even I am now. And I've just been worn down over the years [laughter], which is why part of this is just making sure that things stay fresh, too. But yes, I really appreciate that.\n\nDIANA: And also another thing that I would think is really important to me is that voices be heard. It's all a collaboration, right? Because I've worked at some big companies, I would say a lot, but not all of them have been big companies, and it's been very top-down, and it shouldn't be that way, even in big companies. I think that it should be a dialogue. You put something out there, but you also have to hear the feedback. That feedback loop is really important. And you might miss something really, really big if you don't have that feedback loop. And I really enjoy that we are doing that here. We have our director sessions where we break out into teams, and people come up with ideas, and they share those ideas. And we take that in, and we synthesize it, and we say, “Yes, that's valid. Don't agree with that. Definitely agree with that.” We're able to have that dialogue that I think serves us really, really well, which is another thing that I'm really enjoying about my new role and working with you in this capacity. It’s great.\n\nCHAD: I have a couple of things that surprised me, and I'm curious what surprised you. But the first is that I knew that things were going to have to change. There were too many pent-up questions at thoughtbot. It was too obvious that the pandemic was going to last a lot more longer, but I didn't know what any of those things were. I just had a sense that they were going to change. And so the process of navigating that change with you and not being the one who is CEO while that's happening has been really positive for me and surprising. What's been surprising for you? \n\nDIANA: Very few things surprise me if I'm honest. [laughs] I feel like with time, with so many experiences people have, things get less and less surprising the more time we're on this planet. I don't feel that surprised about things. I actually have gotten to a point in my life where I'm seeing things as opportunities (and you and I have talked about this a lot) and leaning into those challenges and turning them into what's the silver lining here? Can we find the silver lining, and how do we pull that silver lining out and actually turn that into something really strong? I'm doing that more and more. And I feel like the pandemic has actually really called that out and made that a strength in a way which is ironic, but it's actually been really a very useful skill. \n\nCHAD: So the other thing that's been surprising or unexpected, once the transition was over, some things happened that pulled me into client work much more than I was originally expecting. And that's been really interesting because I feel like it's both good and bad. There are things that I would historically be involved in, and even in my new role, I should be, and I just can't be. So all of you are left to do things without me, but there was never any doubt in my mind that you'd be able to handle it or that the team would be able to handle it. But I think it's actually been an interesting thing to have those two things coincide. We've got these transitions going on, and we've got the reorganization, and suddenly, I'm a lot less available than I have been in the past. So that's been something that's been unexpected that we've had to deal with. \n\nDIANA: I think one of the things that's helped me deal with that is that you've been working on some very important projects for the world, and that really do help humanity. And I just think that that's been one thing I keep thinking about: Chad’s doing really important stuff right now. So I think that's been a good thing to keep in mind as well. And then there's another side to it, too, where it's like a parent analogy. Even though I'm not a parent, I have young people in my life. You leave them alone sometimes, and sometimes they'll surprise you, and they'll actually be able to take care of themselves. And they're able to actually do more than you thought they would because you left them alone and it’s like, let's see what they do. And then they actually do something really cool. Some of that has played into this, too, which is interesting. \n\nCHAD: Well, from my perspective, it's almost the opposite of what one might think, which is I never had any trust issues. And I always believe in the thoughtbot team to be able to do things. But oftentimes, I feel like I'm being asked for permission or being checked in with just because I'm the founder and that kind of thing. And so I actually think it's been healthy to be not available and be pretty explicit about that because then it means that I'm not being an artificial gatekeeper for people and things. \n\nDIANA: And it also strengthens the decision-making, I think, because people get to practice that without you and not become dependent on you solving the problem for them, for instance. That's another healthy side to that. \n\nCHAD: So in upcoming episodes, we're going to talk about the reorg, and a big part of that is going remote. We don't need to dig too much into it now, but through the lens of becoming CEO through that transition, that has been entirely remote. For me, as CEO, I was traveling to each of the studios meeting people in person once a month. How has it been going through this transition, becoming more embedded into the rest of the company at different levels and that kind of thing and having it be entirely remote? \n\nDIANA: It's got its pros and cons. In some ways, we've been able to move really quickly on some things. We've also been able to bring perspectives that maybe we wouldn't have thought about before. On the other hand, I really enjoy getting out and seeing people in person, and I feel like there's a chemistry that's developed when you're able to go to lunch together or just have coffee together. And I’m missing that side of it and looking forward to the day when we can do that safely, especially the folks in London; getting a chance to do that with them would be terrific. But I think as with anything, it's got its pros and cons associated with it. We’re trying to lean into the pros as much as possible because this won't always be the case. There will be a time when we all come together. And we might as well just make the most of this time that we're apart to move as quickly as we can, learn as much as we can, and take those learnings so that when we are in person, and we do connect that we can then explore other advantages that that brings us. \n\nCHAD: So when it comes to working from anywhere, which we're specifically not saying that we're an entirely remote company; it’s just that we are now working from anywhere going forward. And that was an intentional choice. But that's been an interesting transition; I think because previously, our whole strategy as a company was local studios working with local clients with a local team. Our culture was built up around our physical places of work. So my question for you as the CEO of thoughtbot is how do you maintain that culture, or how do you change it to not lose what people think makes thoughtbot great along the way?\n\nDIANA: I think we're in the process of discovering that right now. And we are learning things that work and things that don't work. And I don't have an answer. I can only speak to things that we're trying to do. I have noticed there have been a lot of people who have left and gone to different parts of the country, or some have even left the country. And I think that was really surprising. I wasn't expecting people to move to some of the places that they've moved. But knowing that they have an increased comfort level in their lives because they're closer to their families or they're doing things that they need to do right now in certain locations that are not where they started gives me a sense of reassurance that this was the right decision because we're giving people that space, that ability to do that. And some people really did need to move to different locations and deal with certain things. And then just giving that extra flexibility that’s honestly practical, it's just practicality. I feel like all we've done is introduced the element of this is just a practical application of life. Like, if you need to take your kids to school or if you need to go to the doctor, go to the doctor, it's okay. If you need to run an errand, go ahead and do that. You don't have to be tied to a desk in one location all day long. It's healthier if you do what you have to do and then get back to work when you're ready. \n\nAnd then we've had a lot of issues that have impacted society in general that have affected thoughtbot overall, like the things that happened with George Floyd and some of the things we're hearing about recently in Atlanta, killings in Atlanta. Sometimes people just need to take a moment and process all that and see how do we make this world a better place and how do we bring our best selves to thoughtbot? And in our new remote structure, we're giving that, not that we didn't do it before, but it's just giving that extra space that it's okay, it's safe. It's safe to do that. Take the time you need and the place that you need, if it's closer to your families, do that. I feel like that's been a very practical thing that we've done. \n\nThere's a sense of loss because I miss all the New Yorkers. [chuckles] I’d see them often, and everybody would get together on Fridays and have lunch together, and there's a sense of that loss. Seeing our Slack channel go away was sort of sad in a way, but then happy in other ways. But that's true with everything that changes. With everything that changes, there's a beginning and an end; there’s a transition. And we're going through that. I'm looking forward to the days that we can bring people together, maybe in an in-person summit. I think that's going to be fantastic. It's going to be so much fun. But right now, the summit that we had virtually was a blast, and everybody was virtual, and folks had a really good time. So it's just we're finding that right balance. We're testing and trying things. I hope people feel they can bring ideas to us, and we can implement different tactics, tricks, cultures, all that is work in process.\n\nCHAD: I think we're in for an interesting time over the next year because part of why we had offices before was that highly collaborative environment with not only the thoughtbot team but with the clients that we work with and whether that would have been in their office or in ours. And when that was completely off the table, there was no discussion. We didn't need to be in person with someone. The team wasn't going to be based in New York because you're in New York, those kinds of things. And so the pandemic was the kick in the pants we needed. And since clients were also entirely remote, it just wasn't an issue. It'll be interesting over the next year as we navigate being able to be in person again staffing projects remotely, having teams be distributed, that kind of thing. It will be fine. If we didn't think it would be fine, we wouldn't have done what we did, but just because it will end up okay doesn't mean that it won't be a little bit of a challenge or interesting. \n\nDIANA: Absolutely, yes, I agree. I think we may even be more experimental and traveling to different cities where the client is, for example, together as a group, which we really didn't do much of in the past. We've talked about having things like pop-up offices, which is something we will experiment with. So there's some experimentation to happen. I know we're going to make mistakes. But I know we're also going to do some stuff that's going to be really, really great, too. We have to try it, though. We won't learn until we try it and lean into what works. Let's do more of the stuff that's working.\n\nCHAD: Yeah. And the other thing, and I think we communicated this to the team, which is like, this is what we're doing today. It's going to be iterative. And one of the things people need to keep in mind is that we spend a lot of money on offices. And so once we remove that, that money can be put to completely different things whether it be getting together in person more often, or it be other benefits or just operating more profitably so that we're all working a little less stressed. There are all these things that are going to come out of it. And that doesn't even necessarily mean that three years from now, we won't have small offices in some places that look very different than what the previous thoughtbot offices look like. But the best way forward, we felt, was to completely wipe the slate clean and rebuild what it means to be at thoughtbot and how we're working both financially but also from making this new structure work really well perspective.\n\nDIANA: Yes, exactly. \n\nCHAD: So, any parting words of wisdom or thoughts? \n\nDIANA: Yeah. You made this really comfortable for me. I was completely out of my comfort zone, but I think you made me feel comfortable in having a podcast conversation. So thank you for that. It was a lot of fun. \n\nCHAD: If people want to get in touch with you, ask you questions, follow along with you, where is the best place for them to do that? \n\nDIANA: Email is great. Also, I am getting more active on Twitter now. It's something I'm having to do, but you can also find me on Twitter @dianabald, first name, last name. And my email is dianabald@thoughtbot.com. \n\nCHAD: Awesome. You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel and Lindsey on Twitter @Lindsey3D. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Thom Obarski. Thanks for listening as always, and see you next time\n\nThis podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.Special Guest: Diana Bald.","content_html":"Chad is joined by Diana Bald, the new CEO of thoughtbot, to discuss her background, the organizational changes to the leadership of the company, and the reasoning behind them.
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\n\nTranscript:
\n\nCHAD PYTEL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And today, I'm joined by the new CEO of thoughtbot, Diana Bald. Thanks for joining me, Diana.
\n\nDIANA BALD: Hi, Chad. This is so fun. This is so exciting. I've only done one podcast before this, so I'm excited.
\n\nCHAD: Well, don't worry. You can still be CEO of thoughtbot even if you're not a podcaster. [laughter]
\n\nDIANA: Okay, that's great to know.
\n\nCHAD: So it's been several months now. So I want to go back and talk about how we arrived here. But I'm curious, how are you feeling now? What does it feel like?
\n\nDIANA: It feels great. I think I'm getting more and more comfortable every day, which is amazing. And I think the year has gotten off to a great start, so that's helping me feel more comfortable as well. So far, so good.
\n\nCHAD: So for folks who are listening, I'm sure they're wondering who are you? [chuckles] Let's give the audience a little peek into your background and how you arrived at thoughtbot, and the role you originally had.
\n\nDIANA: Great. How far back do you want me to go?
\n\nCHAD: As far as back as you're comfortable.
\n\nDIANA: Okay. I actually was really interested in technology at a younger age. I put myself through undergrad and grad school while I was doing tech roles. I trained lawyers on how to move from the analog world into the digital world. That was one of my very first jobs at a law firm. And then, shortly after that, I did webmaster work when I was putting myself through MBA school. It was a very different world than it is now. This is way back when the internet was really just kicking off; it was 1998 to 2001, around that time. When I graduated from MBA school, I was recruited into Univision into their leadership pipeline, which was very much focused on business development. But my very first project there was web integration, integrating the univision.com with their TV and radio. That was when I started to move away from technology. I was there for ten years. I had a variety of different roles, a really fun job. I got to experience a lot of different roles, lived in a lot of different cities. I spent a lot of time in Philadelphia, where I actually launched a television station in Spanish, which was really fun. And then I came to New York.
\n\nAfter Univision, I spent four years in the advertising and marketing world. I spent two years with IPG at ID Media, which was a direct marketing agency. And then two years at MDC Partners at an agency called TargetCast, which later became Assembly, which was more media buying and planning. And then, when I left there, I went to Liberty Mutual for three years. And at Liberty Mutual, I fell back in love with technology. I missed it. I was doing a lot of strategic partnership opportunities with really interesting companies that were doing brand new business models and disrupting insurance, and there was a lot of exposure to telematics and IoT. And it was just calling me back, and I was like, I got to get back to tech. And somehow, I don't recall exactly how, but I found you. You and I chatted, and then I fell in love with thoughtbot [chuckles], and then after that, the rest is history.
\n\nCHAD: You joined us as the Managing Director of the New York City studio. I want to say that was a position we were advertising for, and you applied to it.
\n\nDIANA: Yeah.
\n\nCHAD: And one of the things that really stood out when I first met you and as we've got to know each other and work together is the variety of experience that you had because I've only ever done what I do, which has its own strengths. So the fact that I started freelancing web design and development in high school and have continued to do that now for 25 years is a strength, but it's also, aside from the jobs I had as a dishwasher or the checkout person at the grocery store, this is literally all I've done. And the variety of experience you have not only helps thoughtbot be better, but I also think it positions you well for our business. In consulting, you need to be unflappable in a lot of circumstances, and I think you're good at that. You're good at maintaining an even keel and talking with customers and dealing with difficult situations and that kind of thing.
\n\nDIANA: In some ways, I'm envious that you have been able to stick with development the entire time; that’s really, really cool. But in other ways, I can see what you're talking about because I do feel like I have had a variety of roles and seen a lot of different situations. And every one of these situations has had their challenges. And they've all been generalist roles where I've dealt with clients, and then those clients had challenges in their respective industries. So I've really learned a lot about keeping things in perspective, if you will, more so than people who are in a role for a particular time and see that aspect of it. I'm seeing things from a bird's eye view much more often because maybe I've seen the situation in the past only it was in this industry, or I've seen this situation in the past, but it had these characters. And it's like I can carry that knowledge over to thoughtbot, which has been really helpful.
\n\nCHAD: So the managing director role, I think I've described it on the show before, and it’s sort of the CEO of the individual studio. That’s the way that it works. You oversaw the individual studio, and you were responsible for business development and the whole P&L of the studio, the whole business. Going back to first joining thoughtbot, what was a surprise to you?
\n\nDIANA: How comfortable I felt. [chuckles] I felt like, oh, I'm home. I felt like, oh, there you are. I've been looking for you all my life kind of feeling. I don't know how to explain it. It just felt really good. Like, okay, these are problems. I like these problems. Or this is really joyful. I felt like I was actually in my element for probably the first time in my career, although I've had some jobs where I felt pretty much in my comfort zone, but thoughtbot took it to a totally new level. And I don't know if it's thoughtbot, or the role, or the combination of the two, or maybe it's me where I am now in my life and just having had all these different jobs and experiences. Maybe it's all the above.
\n\nCHAD: One of the interesting things that's been a journey for thoughtbot not only just with you but with several people is up until a few years ago, we hadn't, aside from some office managers or people operations, we hadn't had people in direct client-facing roles who are not designers and developers. And it comes from a place of fear and skepticism about that, historically for us, for me personally. And I don't think I was wrong per se; I was just misguided. And I've learned over the years that when you're afraid of something, there can be some truth in what you're afraid of, but you should let that fear guide you into making good decisions and not let it hold you back from doing anything. And that's what we were doing: we were so afraid of what adding non-designers and developers to the consulting side of the business would mean for us as designers and developers that we didn't do it at all, instead of trying to find people who would be a great fit, who would be great advocates for us, a great fit for the company. And once we figured out the recipe for doing that, I feel like not only did it make thoughtbot better and stronger on the business side, but it made thoughtbot better overall. One of the things we strive for is an inclusive, diverse environment, and that doesn't just mean the obvious things. It also means having different perspectives and experiences that a group can bring to the table that makes the results better and more enjoyable, and more fulfilling to work in. And I think that you've been successful in bringing that to the company, and it felt good and not only you but the other people that we've added in the managing director roles. And that kind of thing that brings that different experience and different skill sets to the table has made thoughtbot better, I think. So, thank you.
\n\nDIANA: Thank you for letting us bring it to the table; not every place lets us do that. But you've set up a culture, to your credit, that I think brings the best out in people. And I think you've enabled that to happen, so thank you right back. [chuckles]
\n\nCHAD: There's another angle to that, which has been on my mind, which is what we were doing in the past was basically forcing designers and developers to do some of those things and potentially setting them up to fail because it wasn't a strength, or it wasn't an area that they were actually interested in. They were just doing it out of love for thoughtbot or wanting to see us succeed. When you put people in a position where they're going to struggle or where they're going to not succeed, that's doing nobody a favor as well. And so that's in part been on my mind because as we've been reorganizing the company and everything, I think that's part of the lens at which we're looking at it: what can we do to make things easier to make us more successful as a team and as individuals in our day-to-day work, too?
\n\nDIANA: I think that there's a lot there. I feel like in every designer; there is a business person because they're breaking things down. They're deconstructing constantly, and they're asking tons of questions that business people just naturally ask. And then developers are super creative, and they're problem solvers, and they do the same thing. I feel like it's a combination of art and science. Everybody's got their science part of it, the developers, designers, even people like me with a business development background. But then when you do enough of that thing, and you're meshed with the people who bring a complementary skill, then you're able to do the art side of it together that you wouldn't get solo, for instance. If you just put a bunch of business development people in a room together, it's very different than when you mix them up with a designer who brings that side of thinking and a developer who brings their thinking. I think together we're better than siloed.
\n\nCHAD: So when it came to the actual transition and having you step into the role of CEO and move into the COO role, and I want to be relatively honest that it wasn't some grand plan that I executed over a period of a long time. And if that had been the case, I think we would have gone about it a little bit differently and certainly with more transparency for the rest of the thoughtbot team. For the listeners, the path there was that Matt Jankowski, a long-time COO and member of the leadership team at thoughtbot, was getting ready to move on. And that wasn't the only thing that was changing. Obviously, 2020 was a big year; it was a difficult year. And so the combination of all of those things and me looking at what does the leadership team at thoughtbot look like going forward? Who is going to fill Matt's responsibilities? That kind of thing, and really breaking down those roles and responsibilities and coming to the conclusion that the CEO role and particularly business development are inherently coupled at the company right now and that we have a lot of things we need to do in front of us and who is the best person to be able to do that? And feeling like it might not be me.
\n\nAnd the things that I was going to be taking over from Matt operationally were in and of themselves a significant area. I love thoughtbot. I love helping it work better and being close to the client work. And now that we've built an incredible team of managing directors, that was another thing that was on my mind that I've built that team. I'm really proud of that team, and it's an awesome team. But who's going to be the better mentor and leader for that team going forward now that we've got a team of experienced people who are slightly different than just designers and developers and who have different needs and jobs? And again, the best person for that might not be me. And so those were all the thoughts that were going through my head. And then things came together really quickly.
\n\nDIANA: Yeah, they sure did. [laughter] They sure did turn around and come together really quickly. First, I have a lot of admiration for you, in particular, like the way that you're able to take a step back and look at things objectively and not let ego get in the way of things because that's a big deal. Not everybody is able to do that, Chad. And I've worked at a lot of places, as we talked about, and I've seen ego get in the way. And I've seen ego get in the way in a bad way. It's not always a friend. Sometimes it could be a friend, sometimes it's a very powerful friend to have, but sometimes ego can hurt. And so there's a lot of wisdom to that.
\n\nAnd in terms of the speed at which things came together, yes, I agree; I think that's a reflection of the times we're living in. We're in a time where things can change on a dime, and we just have to be able to pivot and be able to reassess the landscape, see what we have to do, make the necessary modifications and then go. And I'm really proud of both of us and the team of the managing directors and everyone at thoughtbot for our ability to quickly adjust and do what we had to do during the really crazy year that 2020 was.
\n\nCHAD: I spent the majority of 2020 in intense survival mode. And so it wasn't until we were through that period that I realized how much it had affected me, whether it be in burnout ways but also in terms of realizing that we were going to survive. At the end of March, early April, it was the most difficult time. We saw a good portion of our business…new projects were starting, people doing new things. At the end of March, early April, a lot of that new stuff got completely put on hold as the whole world recalibrated. And so we saw a significant decrease in revenue in those months, and we didn't know where it was going to go. So we were very proactive about redoing our numbers and making sure that we weren't going to go out of business and didn't go out of business. And once we were able to do that and to stabilize things, we still needed to spend a significant amount of effort for the rest of the year, working really hard to make sure that we made things less bad. And that was pretty difficult.
\n\nBut my main point or my takeaway from the year and part of what has led to this transition is the realization that I don't really have any plans to go anywhere per se, but rather than be like, oh, I need to keep my position forever, it's more we're coming up on the 20-year mark of thoughtbot. When we came up on the 10-year mark of thoughtbot, we asked ourselves the question, “Okay, it's ten years. We're not really going anywhere. What do the next ten years look like?” And so, as we continue to move forward as a company, I think the horizon tends to expand. And it's like, okay, we're coming up on 20 years. What do the next 20 years look like? So, I don't really have any plans to go anywhere, but am I going to be doing this and the same thing in the same way for another 20 years? Probably not. [laughs] I'll be getting close to retirement age. So I always have come to work every day, just trying to create the place that I want to work, doing the kinds of things that I want to do. And I think that motivates everyone at thoughtbot. That's how we all come to work every day. And I think it's one of the things that leads to that culture that we have. And I think this transition has been part of that expanding horizon part of thinking about being a resilient company that is going to last for a long time.
\n\nDIANA: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's one of the things I love most about thoughtbot is just that we're intentional and that we do want to make this a place that people want to work at.
\n\nCHAD: So we asked for questions from the audience, and one of the gists of the episode was what was the actual way that we communicated this change to the company?
\n\nDIANA: So I think we went about it in multiple ways. You notified people in the early stages. And then, we also went about a transition period, which was like the second phase of it. I think you can speak best to the first phase.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, one of the first things I did was once the decision was made; I met one-on-one with the rest of the C-level team and looped them in on it. And then I think the next thing was crafting a company-wide message that went out to the whole company. I'm not sure if there was much in between those two things.
\n\nDIANA: Yeah, I think that's what it was.
\n\nCHAD: Now, one of the interesting things, as I was saying earlier, is that part of the change that was happening at the same time was Matt transitioning out of the company. And so I think in some ways that made the whole thing a little bit more understandable for people. There was change already happening, and they were together. I think in retrospect, in other ways, or at least one thing I wanted to make sure people understood, is that the COO role and the CEO role going forward aren't necessarily the same as what they were in the past. And so even though Matt was leaving and I was taking on that title, that doesn't necessarily mean I was just going to be doing everything that he did in the same way that he did it. And the same is true for you in the CEO role.
\n\nDIANA: Yeah, we bring our own personalities and our own strengths to the roles. We give each other room to do that. I know that you like to be involved in the development. You like to be involved in sales as well. It's important that things change, that things don't stay the same. I think it's important to evolve and to bring in different viewpoints and change the roles a little bit if we need to, which I think we've done and we're doing.
\n\nCHAD: And so someone asked, “Were people surprised?” I think people were very surprised, don't you?
\n\nDIANA: [chuckles] Yeah, I think so. I think I was surprised, [laughter] starting with me. Yeah, everybody was. But it's understandable; you’re the founder. And I think change does bring an element of surprise in and of itself.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah, I think we got to that place very quickly. But in retrospect, knowing where we ended up, I could have envisioned more proactively saying, “This is a transition,” not even necessarily with you specifically just like “maybe next year I won't be CEO,” like giving people some clue that a transition of some kind might be coming. But I didn't know myself, and so it wasn't really practical to give people. But I think in retrospect, it would have been nice to make it more clear that that's the kind of thing that might be on the table.
\n\nDIANA: I also feel, though, that there is an element like we were speaking about earlier that sometimes things change and they change quickly, and we can see more of that happening in the future. I don't think that's going to stop. I think that actually might increase to some extent. So it's great if we have an advance notice of things, but sometimes there isn't the room or the opportunity to do so.
\n\nCHAD: So then you moved into the role. We had a transition period. What was that like for you?
\n\nDIANA: It was interesting because I thought, well, let me bring things that I always wanted my CEOs to do but never did. And let me not do things that I saw my CEOs doing that I didn't like. [chuckles] Let me start there. And one of the things that I really enjoy, and I think it's part of the culture here, is just being a little goofy and a little silly and just having that freedom. And I actually think that that makes for a better, healthier environment. And I guess I wished my prior CEOs were a little bit less uptight, maybe, if you will, a little bit more goofy, a little bit more fun. And so I think bringing that even more because you already bring that but really doing it together. [chuckles]
\n\nCHAD: Well, I have to be honest, I used to be a lot more goofy than even I am now. And I've just been worn down over the years [laughter], which is why part of this is just making sure that things stay fresh, too. But yes, I really appreciate that.
\n\nDIANA: And also another thing that I would think is really important to me is that voices be heard. It's all a collaboration, right? Because I've worked at some big companies, I would say a lot, but not all of them have been big companies, and it's been very top-down, and it shouldn't be that way, even in big companies. I think that it should be a dialogue. You put something out there, but you also have to hear the feedback. That feedback loop is really important. And you might miss something really, really big if you don't have that feedback loop. And I really enjoy that we are doing that here. We have our director sessions where we break out into teams, and people come up with ideas, and they share those ideas. And we take that in, and we synthesize it, and we say, “Yes, that's valid. Don't agree with that. Definitely agree with that.” We're able to have that dialogue that I think serves us really, really well, which is another thing that I'm really enjoying about my new role and working with you in this capacity. It’s great.
\n\nCHAD: I have a couple of things that surprised me, and I'm curious what surprised you. But the first is that I knew that things were going to have to change. There were too many pent-up questions at thoughtbot. It was too obvious that the pandemic was going to last a lot more longer, but I didn't know what any of those things were. I just had a sense that they were going to change. And so the process of navigating that change with you and not being the one who is CEO while that's happening has been really positive for me and surprising. What's been surprising for you?
\n\nDIANA: Very few things surprise me if I'm honest. [laughs] I feel like with time, with so many experiences people have, things get less and less surprising the more time we're on this planet. I don't feel that surprised about things. I actually have gotten to a point in my life where I'm seeing things as opportunities (and you and I have talked about this a lot) and leaning into those challenges and turning them into what's the silver lining here? Can we find the silver lining, and how do we pull that silver lining out and actually turn that into something really strong? I'm doing that more and more. And I feel like the pandemic has actually really called that out and made that a strength in a way which is ironic, but it's actually been really a very useful skill.
\n\nCHAD: So the other thing that's been surprising or unexpected, once the transition was over, some things happened that pulled me into client work much more than I was originally expecting. And that's been really interesting because I feel like it's both good and bad. There are things that I would historically be involved in, and even in my new role, I should be, and I just can't be. So all of you are left to do things without me, but there was never any doubt in my mind that you'd be able to handle it or that the team would be able to handle it. But I think it's actually been an interesting thing to have those two things coincide. We've got these transitions going on, and we've got the reorganization, and suddenly, I'm a lot less available than I have been in the past. So that's been something that's been unexpected that we've had to deal with.
\n\nDIANA: I think one of the things that's helped me deal with that is that you've been working on some very important projects for the world, and that really do help humanity. And I just think that that's been one thing I keep thinking about: Chad’s doing really important stuff right now. So I think that's been a good thing to keep in mind as well. And then there's another side to it, too, where it's like a parent analogy. Even though I'm not a parent, I have young people in my life. You leave them alone sometimes, and sometimes they'll surprise you, and they'll actually be able to take care of themselves. And they're able to actually do more than you thought they would because you left them alone and it’s like, let's see what they do. And then they actually do something really cool. Some of that has played into this, too, which is interesting.
\n\nCHAD: Well, from my perspective, it's almost the opposite of what one might think, which is I never had any trust issues. And I always believe in the thoughtbot team to be able to do things. But oftentimes, I feel like I'm being asked for permission or being checked in with just because I'm the founder and that kind of thing. And so I actually think it's been healthy to be not available and be pretty explicit about that because then it means that I'm not being an artificial gatekeeper for people and things.
\n\nDIANA: And it also strengthens the decision-making, I think, because people get to practice that without you and not become dependent on you solving the problem for them, for instance. That's another healthy side to that.
\n\nCHAD: So in upcoming episodes, we're going to talk about the reorg, and a big part of that is going remote. We don't need to dig too much into it now, but through the lens of becoming CEO through that transition, that has been entirely remote. For me, as CEO, I was traveling to each of the studios meeting people in person once a month. How has it been going through this transition, becoming more embedded into the rest of the company at different levels and that kind of thing and having it be entirely remote?
\n\nDIANA: It's got its pros and cons. In some ways, we've been able to move really quickly on some things. We've also been able to bring perspectives that maybe we wouldn't have thought about before. On the other hand, I really enjoy getting out and seeing people in person, and I feel like there's a chemistry that's developed when you're able to go to lunch together or just have coffee together. And I’m missing that side of it and looking forward to the day when we can do that safely, especially the folks in London; getting a chance to do that with them would be terrific. But I think as with anything, it's got its pros and cons associated with it. We’re trying to lean into the pros as much as possible because this won't always be the case. There will be a time when we all come together. And we might as well just make the most of this time that we're apart to move as quickly as we can, learn as much as we can, and take those learnings so that when we are in person, and we do connect that we can then explore other advantages that that brings us.
\n\nCHAD: So when it comes to working from anywhere, which we're specifically not saying that we're an entirely remote company; it’s just that we are now working from anywhere going forward. And that was an intentional choice. But that's been an interesting transition; I think because previously, our whole strategy as a company was local studios working with local clients with a local team. Our culture was built up around our physical places of work. So my question for you as the CEO of thoughtbot is how do you maintain that culture, or how do you change it to not lose what people think makes thoughtbot great along the way?
\n\nDIANA: I think we're in the process of discovering that right now. And we are learning things that work and things that don't work. And I don't have an answer. I can only speak to things that we're trying to do. I have noticed there have been a lot of people who have left and gone to different parts of the country, or some have even left the country. And I think that was really surprising. I wasn't expecting people to move to some of the places that they've moved. But knowing that they have an increased comfort level in their lives because they're closer to their families or they're doing things that they need to do right now in certain locations that are not where they started gives me a sense of reassurance that this was the right decision because we're giving people that space, that ability to do that. And some people really did need to move to different locations and deal with certain things. And then just giving that extra flexibility that’s honestly practical, it's just practicality. I feel like all we've done is introduced the element of this is just a practical application of life. Like, if you need to take your kids to school or if you need to go to the doctor, go to the doctor, it's okay. If you need to run an errand, go ahead and do that. You don't have to be tied to a desk in one location all day long. It's healthier if you do what you have to do and then get back to work when you're ready.
\n\nAnd then we've had a lot of issues that have impacted society in general that have affected thoughtbot overall, like the things that happened with George Floyd and some of the things we're hearing about recently in Atlanta, killings in Atlanta. Sometimes people just need to take a moment and process all that and see how do we make this world a better place and how do we bring our best selves to thoughtbot? And in our new remote structure, we're giving that, not that we didn't do it before, but it's just giving that extra space that it's okay, it's safe. It's safe to do that. Take the time you need and the place that you need, if it's closer to your families, do that. I feel like that's been a very practical thing that we've done.
\n\nThere's a sense of loss because I miss all the New Yorkers. [chuckles] I’d see them often, and everybody would get together on Fridays and have lunch together, and there's a sense of that loss. Seeing our Slack channel go away was sort of sad in a way, but then happy in other ways. But that's true with everything that changes. With everything that changes, there's a beginning and an end; there’s a transition. And we're going through that. I'm looking forward to the days that we can bring people together, maybe in an in-person summit. I think that's going to be fantastic. It's going to be so much fun. But right now, the summit that we had virtually was a blast, and everybody was virtual, and folks had a really good time. So it's just we're finding that right balance. We're testing and trying things. I hope people feel they can bring ideas to us, and we can implement different tactics, tricks, cultures, all that is work in process.
\n\nCHAD: I think we're in for an interesting time over the next year because part of why we had offices before was that highly collaborative environment with not only the thoughtbot team but with the clients that we work with and whether that would have been in their office or in ours. And when that was completely off the table, there was no discussion. We didn't need to be in person with someone. The team wasn't going to be based in New York because you're in New York, those kinds of things. And so the pandemic was the kick in the pants we needed. And since clients were also entirely remote, it just wasn't an issue. It'll be interesting over the next year as we navigate being able to be in person again staffing projects remotely, having teams be distributed, that kind of thing. It will be fine. If we didn't think it would be fine, we wouldn't have done what we did, but just because it will end up okay doesn't mean that it won't be a little bit of a challenge or interesting.
\n\nDIANA: Absolutely, yes, I agree. I think we may even be more experimental and traveling to different cities where the client is, for example, together as a group, which we really didn't do much of in the past. We've talked about having things like pop-up offices, which is something we will experiment with. So there's some experimentation to happen. I know we're going to make mistakes. But I know we're also going to do some stuff that's going to be really, really great, too. We have to try it, though. We won't learn until we try it and lean into what works. Let's do more of the stuff that's working.
\n\nCHAD: Yeah. And the other thing, and I think we communicated this to the team, which is like, this is what we're doing today. It's going to be iterative. And one of the things people need to keep in mind is that we spend a lot of money on offices. And so once we remove that, that money can be put to completely different things whether it be getting together in person more often, or it be other benefits or just operating more profitably so that we're all working a little less stressed. There are all these things that are going to come out of it. And that doesn't even necessarily mean that three years from now, we won't have small offices in some places that look very different than what the previous thoughtbot offices look like. But the best way forward, we felt, was to completely wipe the slate clean and rebuild what it means to be at thoughtbot and how we're working both financially but also from making this new structure work really well perspective.
\n\nDIANA: Yes, exactly.
\n\nCHAD: So, any parting words of wisdom or thoughts?
\n\nDIANA: Yeah. You made this really comfortable for me. I was completely out of my comfort zone, but I think you made me feel comfortable in having a podcast conversation. So thank you for that. It was a lot of fun.
\n\nCHAD: If people want to get in touch with you, ask you questions, follow along with you, where is the best place for them to do that?
\n\nDIANA: Email is great. Also, I am getting more active on Twitter now. It's something I'm having to do, but you can also find me on Twitter @dianabald, first name, last name. And my email is dianabald@thoughtbot.com.
\n\nCHAD: Awesome. You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel and Lindsey on Twitter @Lindsey3D. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Thom Obarski. Thanks for listening as always, and see you next time
\n\nThis podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.
Special Guest: Diana Bald.
","summary":"Chad is joined by Diana Bald, the new CEO of thoughtbot, to discuss her background, the organizational changes to the leadership of the company, and the reasoning behind them.","date_published":"2021-05-13T05:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/668f385f-37ad-4365-b18b-7e2c93d723f6.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":35987082,"duration_in_seconds":2249}]},{"id":"3eccfed6-5825-45db-8c6d-ef258c6e37c3","title":"Values - ShearShare","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/391","content_text":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Courtney & Tye Caldwell, Co-founders of ShearShare, discussing culture-fit with new hires, incorporating values into brand-thinking, fostering relationships, and planning for 2021.\n\n\n\n\nPlease take a minute to help guide our next season with your thoughtful feedback on our Giant Robots listener survey.\nThanks!\nThis episode is sponsored by HelloFresh\nEnter code ROBOTS80 to get a total of $80 off, including free shipping!\n\n\n\n\n\nShearShare\nShearShare on Instagram\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!Special Guest: ShearShare.Sponsored By:HelloFresh : Get a total of $80 off, including free shipping! Promo Code: ROBOTS80","content_html":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Courtney & Tye Caldwell, Co-founders of ShearShare, discussing culture-fit with new hires, incorporating values into brand-thinking, fostering relationships, and planning for 2021.
\n\nPlease take a minute to help guide our next season with your thoughtful feedback on our Giant Robots listener survey.
\nThanks!
This episode is sponsored by HelloFresh
\nEnter code ROBOTS80 to get a total of $80 off, including free shipping!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: ShearShare.
Sponsored By:
Chad and Lindsey talk with Alasdair McLean-Foreman, CEO & Founder of Teikametrics, discussing the intermingling importance of mission, vision, and values.
\n\nPlease take a minute to help guide our next season with your thoughtful feedback on our Giant Robots listener survey.
\nThanks!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: Teikametrics.
","summary":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Alasdair McLean-Foreman, CEO & Founder of Teikametrics, discussing the intermingling importance of mission, vision, and values.","date_published":"2020-11-30T00:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/fec3e2be-cb0b-487a-9205-713fda6752cd.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":38794513,"duration_in_seconds":2424}]},{"id":"09a89e73-1e27-4ae7-a06d-bb56f4140a77","title":"Values - Nurse-1-1","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/389","content_text":"Chad and Lindsey are joined by Michael Sheeley, founder & CEO of Nurse-1-1, to discuss crafting values with purpose, living those values in the product's messaging & marketing, choosing not to publicly publish them, and what the landscape of healthcare looks like going into 2021.\n\n\n\n\nPlease take a minute to help guide our next season with your thoughtful feedback on our Giant Robots listener survey.\nThanks!\nThis episode is sponsored by HelloFresh\nEnter code ROBOTS90 to get a total of $90 off, including free shipping!\n\n\n\n\n\nNurse-1-1\nMichael on Twitter\nNurse-1-1 on Instagram\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!Special Guest: Nurse-1-1.Sponsored By:HelloFresh : Get a total of $90 off, including free shipping! Promo Code: ROBOTS90","content_html":"Chad and Lindsey are joined by Michael Sheeley, founder & CEO of Nurse-1-1, to discuss crafting values with purpose, living those values in the product's messaging & marketing, choosing not to publicly publish them, and what the landscape of healthcare looks like going into 2021.
\n\nPlease take a minute to help guide our next season with your thoughtful feedback on our Giant Robots listener survey.
\nThanks!
This episode is sponsored by HelloFresh
\nEnter code ROBOTS90 to get a total of $90 off, including free shipping!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: Nurse-1-1.
Sponsored By:
Chad and Lindsey discuss the history of values at thoughtbot and how they served as a key differentiator in the early days of the company, and navigating the tricky waters of when client values don't align.
\n\nPlease take a minute to help guide our next season with your thoughtful feedback on our Giant Robots listener survey.
\nThanks!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chad and Lindsey discuss the history of values at thoughtbot and how they served as a key differentiator in the early days of the company, and navigating the tricky waters of when client values don't align.","date_published":"2020-11-09T00:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/5cb870ac-26cf-458e-8b01-25bc8b3a9095.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":32457834,"duration_in_seconds":2028}]},{"id":"e1be8d1b-c2a9-4413-a363-4eec616de8f5","title":"Marketing - ShearShare","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/387","content_text":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Courtney & Tye Caldwell, Co-founders of ShearShare, about their early days of in-person marketing, the importance of naming, consistent messaging, and the effects of hiring a head of growth.\n\n\nShearShare\nMentored by Failure- Tye Caldwell\nShearShare on TikTok\nShearShare secures $2.3M in seed funding\nGoogle's Black Founders' Fund\nShearShare on Instagram\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!Special Guest: ShearShare.","content_html":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Courtney & Tye Caldwell, Co-founders of ShearShare, about their early days of in-person marketing, the importance of naming, consistent messaging, and the effects of hiring a head of growth.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: ShearShare.
","summary":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Courtney & Tye Caldwell, Co-founders of ShearShare, about their early days of in-person marketing, the importance of naming, consistent messaging, and the effects of hiring a head of growth.","date_published":"2020-11-02T00:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/e1be8d1b-c2a9-4413-a363-4eec616de8f5.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":43067728,"duration_in_seconds":2691}]},{"id":"cf66876c-9a56-47bd-8f71-36a9d59562b4","title":"Marketing - Teikametrics","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/386","content_text":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Alasdair McLean-Foreman, CEO & Founder of Teikametrics, discussing the day-one origins of marketing there, building your reputation through content marketing, and the efficacy of various content channels.\n\n\n\nThis episode is brought to you by Teamistry.\nDiscover stories of teams who work together in new and unexpected ways to achieve remarkable things, on the Teamistry podcast\n\n\n\n\nTeikametrics\nStats & Trends From Prime Day 2020 Webinar\n\"How to Make Podcasting Work for You\"- Lindsey @ Startup Boston\nFlywheel 2.0- Early Access List\nTeikametrics Acquires Adjusti.co\nNikola admits prototype was rolling downhill in promotional video\nAlasdair on LinkedIn\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!Special Guest: Teikametrics.Sponsored By:Teamistry: Discover stories of teams who work together in new and unexpected ways to achieve remarkable things, on the Teamistry podcast","content_html":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Alasdair McLean-Foreman, CEO & Founder of Teikametrics, discussing the day-one origins of marketing there, building your reputation through content marketing, and the efficacy of various content channels.
\n\nThis episode is brought to you by Teamistry.
\nDiscover stories of teams who work together in new and unexpected ways to achieve remarkable things, on the Teamistry podcast
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: Teikametrics.
Sponsored By:
Chad and Lindsey are joined by Michael Sheeley, founder & CEO of Nurse-1-1, to discuss the blurry line between marketing, research, & product, committing to branding, acquisition costs, SEO & content marketing, helping to power a new provider platform, and hiring a head of marketing.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: Nurse-1-1.
","summary":"Chad and Lindsey are joined by Michael Sheeley, founder & CEO of Nurse-1-1, to discuss the blurry line between marketing, research, & product, committing to branding, acquisition costs, SEO & content marketing, helping to power a new provider platform, and hiring a head of marketing.","date_published":"2020-10-19T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/a3c33a68-a5e6-4577-97fa-ff70b7455881.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":45751444,"duration_in_seconds":2859}]},{"id":"6d36378e-1e67-4b85-adc3-0d0ee2637f2b","title":"Marketing","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/384","content_text":"Chad and Lindsey discuss 'what's in a name' when it comes to branding, where (and where not) to start when you first begin your marketing efforts, and staying engaged with your customers.\n\n\n\nThis episode is brought to you by:\n\n\nTeamistry- Discover stories of teams who work together in new and unexpected ways to achieve remarkable things, on the Teamistry podcast\nHover: 10% discount on all new purchases!\n\n\n\n\n\nSWOT analysis\nBeing Human in the Absence of Humans- Remote Teams Workshop\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!Sponsored By:Hover: 10% discount on all new purchasesTeamistry: Discover stories of teams who work together in new and unexpected ways to achieve remarkable things, on the Teamistry podcast","content_html":"Chad and Lindsey discuss 'what's in a name' when it comes to branding, where (and where not) to start when you first begin your marketing efforts, and staying engaged with your customers.
\n\nThis episode is brought to you by:
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Sponsored By:
Chad and Lindsey talk with Alasdair McLean-Foreman, CEO & Founder of Teikametrics, discussing trust within the use of data, planning the future with indexed data, a data-science related acquisition, and navigating the world of buzzwords around machine learning.
\n\nThis episode is brought to you by:
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: Teikametrics.
Sponsored By:
Chad and Lindsey talk with Courtney & Tye Caldwell, Co-founders of ShearShare, about using data to guide product design, imagining a machine learning recommendation engine, and their experience in Google for Startups Accelerator.
\n\nThis episode is brought to you by:
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: ShearShare.
Sponsored By:
Chad and Lindsey are joined by Michael Sheeley, founder & CEO of Nurse-1-1, to discuss using data to drive a better customer experience, some of the regulations around data management in healthcare, and advice for health-tech startups.
\n\nJoin us on Sept 24th at 12pm ET for the Your path to digital health startup success, a digital health-tech event!
\n\nThis episode is brought to you by:
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: Nurse-1-1.
Sponsored By:
Data drives the world, and so this month we'll be talking about common pitfalls of building a business around data, laying out a tandem roadmap to drive forward both data and product, the importance of insight over raw data, when does it makes sense to reach for machine learning, tooling, and thoughts on the ethics & future legislation of data collection.
\n\nThis episode is brought to you by ScoutAPM: Give Scout a try for free today and Scout will donate $5 to the open source project of your choice when you deploy!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Sponsored By:
Chad and Lindsey are joined by Michael Sheeley, founder & CEO of Nurse-1-1, to discuss vetting your investors, his experience with fundraising, maintaining your reputation, his mindset while negotiation with investors, lessons learned while building and funding startups, the importance of establishing a founding team, and involving the team in the fundraising process.
\n\nThis episode is brought to you by ScoutAPM.
\nGive Scout a try for free today and Scout will donate $5 to the open source project of your choice when you deploy!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: Nurse-1-1.
Sponsored By:
Chad and Lindsey are joined by Courtney & Tye Caldwell, Co-founders of ShearShare, to discuss their acceptance into the first cohort of Google for Startups' Black Founders Accelerator, speaking the language of investors, preparing for series A, how they think about an exit, and equity for the team.
\n\nThis episode is brought to you by ScoutAPM.
\nGive Scout a try for free today and Scout will donate $5 to the open source project of your choice when you deploy!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: ShearShare.
Sponsored By:
Chad and Lindsey talk with Alasdair McLean-Foreman, CEO & Founder of Teikametrics, discussing early days of community building online, geography in relation to investors, his history with VC, the importance of relationship building, when & how much money to raise, time investment of a CEO for fundraising, and sharing financials with the team.
\n\nThis episode is brought to you by:
\n\nGIANTROBOTSBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: Teikametrics.
Sponsored By:
This month we'll be talking about all things fundraising! The discussion covers investors vs bootstrapping, crowd-funding, differences between the various levels of fundraising, accelerators, and the expectations of taking venture capital.
\n\nThis episode is brought to you by ScoutAPM.
\nGive Scout a try for free today and Scout will donate $5 to the open source project of your choice when you deploy!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Sponsored By:
Chad and Lindsey are joined by Michael Sheeley, founder & CEO of Nurse-1-1, to discuss figuring out the summer and working from home during Covid and beyond, his approach to feature rollout, pings, & to-dos, as well as keeping the team on a unified path, and his personal motivations to keep going.
\n\nThis episode is brought to you by ScoutAPM.
\nGive Scout a try for free today and Scout will donate $5 to the open source project of your choice when you deploy!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: Nurse-1-1.
Sponsored By:
Chad and Lindsey talk with Courtney & Tye Caldwell, Co-founders of ShearShare, about the offset schedule of the beauty industry, an unexpected source of inspiration, the importance of a routine, and supporting the betterment of their team & community.
\n\nThis episode is brought to you by ScoutAPM.
\nGive Scout a try for free today and Scout will donate $5 to the open source project of your choice when you deploy!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: ShearShare.
Sponsored By:
Chad and Lindsey catch up with Alasdair McLean-Foreman, CEO & Founder of Teikametrics, as they head into the second half of the year discussing finding balance (especially when you love your work), examining 'what's our role' to make an impact in responding to national and global events, the importance of exercise in his life, and staying engaged with the product even as one's focus shifts more broadly in the company.
\n\nThis episode is brought to you by ScoutAPM.
\nGive Scout a try for free today and Scout will donate $5 to the open source project of your choice when you deploy!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: Teikametrics.
Sponsored By:
Lindsey and Chad discuss work-life flow, both in general and during quarantine, their schedules, hobbies, and methods to preserve personal time like time-boxing, prioritization, and calendar blocking.
\n\nThis episode is brought to you by ScoutAPM.
\nGive Scout a try for free today and Scout will donate $5 to the open source project of your choice when you deploy!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Sponsored By:
Chad and Lindsey are joined by Michael Sheeley, founder & CEO of Nurse-1-1, to discuss prioritizing revenue, their revenue models, why sales at their stage is more like business development, and considering your first 'sales' hire.
\n\nSpecial Guest: Nurse-1-1.
","summary":"Chad and Lindsey are joined by Michael Sheeley, founder & CEO of Nurse-1-1, to discuss prioritizing revenue, their revenue models, why sales at their stage is more like business development, and considering your first 'sales' hire.","date_published":"2020-07-06T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/dbe46caa-a176-4539-8359-c88245876cbf.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":36875543,"duration_in_seconds":2304}]},{"id":"f7ee1693-1bcb-466f-b135-c2a0cc7405c2","title":"Sales - ShearShare","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/370","content_text":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Courtney & Tye Caldwell, Co-founders of ShearShare, about all the different forms that sales can take, their revenue model, the importance of personal outreach, and building trust through content marketing.\n\n\nShearShare\nShearShare - Build My Business\nShearShare on Instagram\nSpecial Guest: ShearShare.","content_html":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Courtney & Tye Caldwell, Co-founders of ShearShare, about all the different forms that sales can take, their revenue model, the importance of personal outreach, and building trust through content marketing.
\n\nSpecial Guest: ShearShare.
","summary":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Courtney & Tye Caldwell, Co-founders of ShearShare, about all the different forms that sales can take, their revenue model, the importance of personal outreach, and building trust through content marketing.","date_published":"2020-06-29T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/f7ee1693-1bcb-466f-b135-c2a0cc7405c2.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":49073682,"duration_in_seconds":3067}]},{"id":"07d37640-34ad-4a38-92f1-cbafa4699209","title":"Sales - Teikametrics","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/369","content_text":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Alasdair McLean-Foreman, CEO & Founder of Teikametrics, about product-led direct-to-consumer as the future of sales, capturing multiple market segments, and sales structure within Teikametrics. \n\n\nTeikametrics\nFacebook Shops\nAlasdair on LinkedIn\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!Special Guest: Teikametrics.","content_html":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Alasdair McLean-Foreman, CEO & Founder of Teikametrics, about product-led direct-to-consumer as the future of sales, capturing multiple market segments, and sales structure within Teikametrics.
\n\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: Teikametrics.
","summary":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Alasdair McLean-Foreman, CEO & Founder of Teikametrics, about product-led direct-to-consumer as the future of sales, capturing multiple market segments, and sales structure within Teikametrics.","date_published":"2020-06-22T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/07d37640-34ad-4a38-92f1-cbafa4699209.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":45821959,"duration_in_seconds":2863}]},{"id":"a17fcd51-4f7b-4840-ae58-b3749bd3ad2e","title":"Sales","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/368","content_text":"Chad and Lindsey discuss thoughtbot's ideology around sales, the sales process & cycle, identifying your ideal customers, and fostering real relationships with customers.\n\n\nGitHub is now free for all teams\na16z Podcast\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chad and Lindsey discuss thoughtbot's ideology around sales, the sales process & cycle, identifying your ideal customers, and fostering real relationships with customers.
\n\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chad and Lindsey discuss thoughtbot's ideology around sales, the sales process & cycle, identifying your ideal customers, and fostering real relationships with customers.","date_published":"2020-06-15T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/a17fcd51-4f7b-4840-ae58-b3749bd3ad2e.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":33893404,"duration_in_seconds":2118}]},{"id":"e52f0f92-6ea6-43e5-baf5-853fab5f0ac6","title":"367: Securing Opportunity (Shelly Bell)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/367","content_text":"We’re pushing out our next episode in the Giant Robots startup series. We want to pause to acknowledge, reflect, and take action against injustices against the black community.\n\nthoughtbot stands with the black community. We’re outraged by the systematic racism and violence in the US. George Floyd, Tony McDade, Breonna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery, Eric Garner, Trayvon Martin, and too many other members of the black community have lost their lives due to racial injustice. It needs to end.\n\nWe recognize we haven’t been doing enough to fight this injustice and need to be active in anti-racism. Our D&I council and many others on the thoughtbot team are discussing how we can do more and are working on new initiatives to better support our black colleagues, friends, and beyond - far into the future. \n\nWe're looking to do things both large and small. For example, this week we changed our conference reimbursement benefit to only be applicable to conferences that have a diverse speaker lineup and a code of conduct. We hope our efforts will be useful to others as well, and plan to make them available to other companies to work from. In the meantime, we’re going to link to a reading list that we recommend.\n\nToday we’re resharing a past episode that features a black voice in the tech community that we look up to and you should know - Shelly Bell. Shelly is the founder of Black Girl Ventures, an organization that creates access to social and financial capital for Black and Brown women founders. She’s been named in the Top 100 Power Women by Entrepreneur Magazine and has a fantastic story you don’t want to miss.\n\nStay safe and see you soon.\n\n\n75 Things White People Can Do for Racial Justice\nHow To Be An Antiracist- Ibram X. Kendi\nBehind By Design\nSo You Want to Talk About Race- Ijeoma Oluo\nSave the Tears\nWhite Guyde To The Galaxy\nBlack Tech for Black Lives\n\n\n\n\nOriginal Notes from Giant Robots Episode 354\n\nShelly Bell, CEO & Founder of Black Girl Ventures, discusses working to open up your messaging, what makes for a good pitch, and the current state of the investment landscape.\n\n\nBlack Girl Ventures\nRagbaby Exchange\nBEACON\n\"Male and Female Entrepreneurs Get Asked Different Questions by VCs — and It Affects How Much Funding They Get\"- Harvard Business Review\nSheRaise\nShelly on Twitter\n","content_html":"We’re pushing out our next episode in the Giant Robots startup series. We want to pause to acknowledge, reflect, and take action against injustices against the black community.
\n\nthoughtbot stands with the black community. We’re outraged by the systematic racism and violence in the US. George Floyd, Tony McDade, Breonna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery, Eric Garner, Trayvon Martin, and too many other members of the black community have lost their lives due to racial injustice. It needs to end.
\n\nWe recognize we haven’t been doing enough to fight this injustice and need to be active in anti-racism. Our D&I council and many others on the thoughtbot team are discussing how we can do more and are working on new initiatives to better support our black colleagues, friends, and beyond - far into the future.
\n\nWe're looking to do things both large and small. For example, this week we changed our conference reimbursement benefit to only be applicable to conferences that have a diverse speaker lineup and a code of conduct. We hope our efforts will be useful to others as well, and plan to make them available to other companies to work from. In the meantime, we’re going to link to a reading list that we recommend.
\n\nToday we’re resharing a past episode that features a black voice in the tech community that we look up to and you should know - Shelly Bell. Shelly is the founder of Black Girl Ventures, an organization that creates access to social and financial capital for Black and Brown women founders. She’s been named in the Top 100 Power Women by Entrepreneur Magazine and has a fantastic story you don’t want to miss.
\n\nStay safe and see you soon.
\n\nShelly Bell, CEO & Founder of Black Girl Ventures, discusses working to open up your messaging, what makes for a good pitch, and the current state of the investment landscape.
\n\nChad and Lindsey are joined by Michael Sheeley, founder & CEO of Nurse-1-1, to discuss feeling disconnected from the team during quarantine, evaluating for communication skills during the interview process, how communication standards differ in the medical field, and avoiding AI & automation within patient conversations.
\n\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: Nurse-1-1.
","summary":"Chad and Lindsey are joined by Michael Sheeley, founder & CEO of Nurse-1-1, to discuss feeling disconnected from the team during quarantine, evaluating for communication skills during the interview process, how communication standards differ in the medical field, and avoiding AI & automation within patient conversations.","date_published":"2020-06-01T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/5ec772e1-6a45-4f44-aa5c-a2c18eaf05eb.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":40115980,"duration_in_seconds":2507}]},{"id":"2ae8a969-2574-41ae-8b8b-6a7e2e6dc498","title":"Communication & Collaboration- ShearShare","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/365","content_text":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Courtney & Tye Caldwell, Co-founders of ShearShare, about being founded as remote company, their communication tools and methodologies, interview process, and messaging implementation.\n\n\nShearShare\nNotion\nShearShare Business Learning Portal\nShearShare on Instagram\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!Special Guest: ShearShare.","content_html":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Courtney & Tye Caldwell, Co-founders of ShearShare, about being founded as remote company, their communication tools and methodologies, interview process, and messaging implementation.
\n\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: ShearShare.
","summary":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Courtney & Tye Caldwell, Co-founders of ShearShare, about being founded as remote company, their communication tools and methodologies, interview process, and messaging implementation.","date_published":"2020-05-25T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/2ae8a969-2574-41ae-8b8b-6a7e2e6dc498.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":47580314,"duration_in_seconds":2973}]},{"id":"d9a3cbbc-ace1-4c12-a01e-72f0864917e5","title":"Communication & Collaboration - Teikametrics","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/364","content_text":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Alasdair McLean-Foreman, CEO & Founder of Teikametrics, about Teikametrics' guiding principles, Zoom fatigue, rethinking stances on remote work, the value of a peer group, and how retail is adapting during Covid-19.\n\n\nTeikametrics\nCoinbase planning and response to COVID-2019\nAmazon '6 Pager' Methodology\nTrillion Dollar Coach: The Leadership Playbook of Silicon Valley's Bill Campbell- Eric Schmidt\nGood to Great- Jim Collins\nAlasdair on LinkedIn\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!Special Guest: Teikametrics.","content_html":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Alasdair McLean-Foreman, CEO & Founder of Teikametrics, about Teikametrics' guiding principles, Zoom fatigue, rethinking stances on remote work, the value of a peer group, and how retail is adapting during Covid-19.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: Teikametrics.
","summary":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Alasdair McLean-Foreman, CEO & Founder of Teikametrics, about Teikametrics' guiding principles, Zoom fatigue, rethinking stances on remote work, the value of a peer group, and how retail is adapting during Covid-19.","date_published":"2020-05-18T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/d9a3cbbc-ace1-4c12-a01e-72f0864917e5.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":45162002,"duration_in_seconds":2822}]},{"id":"cebf784d-c3f9-45de-9d27-c9aac106f5b8","title":"Communication & Collaboration","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/363","content_text":"Chad and Lindsey discuss thoughtbot's methodology & tools for communication and collaboration, both in general and adapting them to a fully remote workplace, the pros and cons of this new environment, and approaching your work with optimism.\n\nThis episode is brought to you by ExpressVPN.\nClick through to get three months for free. \n\n\n37 Signals (Now Basecamp)\nthoughtbot Playbook\nBeing Human in the Absence of Humans: A Q&A for Product Teams\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!Sponsored By:ExpressVPN: Click through to get three months for free!","content_html":"Chad and Lindsey discuss thoughtbot's methodology & tools for communication and collaboration, both in general and adapting them to a fully remote workplace, the pros and cons of this new environment, and approaching your work with optimism.
\n\nThis episode is brought to you by ExpressVPN.
\nClick through to get three months for free.
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Sponsored By:
","summary":"Chad and Lindsey discuss thoughtbot's methodology & tools for communication and collaboration, both in general and adapting them to a fully remote workplace, the pros and cons of this new environment, and approaching your work with optimism.","date_published":"2020-05-11T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/cebf784d-c3f9-45de-9d27-c9aac106f5b8.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":37815533,"duration_in_seconds":2363}]},{"id":"2f8e60da-14ba-430c-bfde-2f58c26d4738","title":"Product Roadmap - Nurse-1-1","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/362","content_text":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Michael Sheeley, founder & CEO of Nurse-1-1, on learnings from their launch, challenges of building in the health-tech space, their approach to long-term planning, and the future of medicine in a post COVID-19 world.\n\n\nNurse-1-1\nMichael on Giant Robots\nHarvard Innovation Labs\nZocdoc Partnership\nNet Promotor Score (NPS)\nHealth-Related Google Searches Doubled in the Week Before Patients’ Emergency Department Visits- Penn Medicine\nMichael on Twitter\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!Special Guest: Nurse-1-1.","content_html":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Michael Sheeley, founder & CEO of Nurse-1-1, on learnings from their launch, challenges of building in the health-tech space, their approach to long-term planning, and the future of medicine in a post COVID-19 world.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: Nurse-1-1.
","summary":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Michael Sheeley, founder & CEO of Nurse-1-1, on learnings from their launch, challenges of building in the health-tech space, their approach to long-term planning, and the future of medicine in a post COVID-19 world.","date_published":"2020-05-04T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/2f8e60da-14ba-430c-bfde-2f58c26d4738.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":48519050,"duration_in_seconds":3032}]},{"id":"2f49d996-8fe3-4c4e-9471-659efb6717e1","title":"Product Roadmap - ShearShare","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/361","content_text":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Courtney & Tye Caldwell, Co-founders of ShearShare, about the history of the platform, how the beauty industry has been impacted by COVID-19, building yourself as a brand that people can trust, and how their product roadmap has adapted to the changing landscape.\n\n\nShearShare\nShearShare on Giant Robots\nMentored by Failure- Tye Caldwell\nShearShare Learning Portal\nCourtney on Twitter\nTye on Twitter\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!Special Guest: ShearShare.","content_html":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Courtney & Tye Caldwell, Co-founders of ShearShare, about the history of the platform, how the beauty industry has been impacted by COVID-19, building yourself as a brand that people can trust, and how their product roadmap has adapted to the changing landscape.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: ShearShare.
","summary":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Courtney & Tye Caldwell, Co-founders of ShearShare, about the history of the platform, how the beauty industry has been impacted by COVID-19, building yourself as a brand that people can trust, and how their product roadmap has adapted to the changing landscape.","date_published":"2020-04-27T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/2f49d996-8fe3-4c4e-9471-659efb6717e1.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":48711311,"duration_in_seconds":3044}]},{"id":"6892044d-12d3-4274-b2e0-9c79a482f1b8","title":"Product Roadmap - Teikametrics","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/360","content_text":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Alasdair McLean-Foreman, CEO & Founder of Teikametrics, about the history of the platform, staying focused on the needs of your customers, shifting product requirements to meet your ideal buyer-personas, and their newly-minted formal product roadmap.\n\nThis episode is brought to you by ExpressVPN.\nClick through to get three months for free.\n\n\nTeikametrics\nAatish Salvi on Giant Robots\nThe Ride of a Lifetime: Lessons Learned from 15 Years as CEO of the Walt Disney Company- Robert Iger\nThe Everything Store- Brad Stone\nRetail optimization startup Teikametrics raises $15M as it expands beyond Amazon and beyond ads\nThe Advantage- Patrick M. Lencioni\nAlasdair on LinkedIn\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!Special Guest: Teikametrics.Sponsored By:ExpressVPN: Click through to get three months for free!","content_html":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Alasdair McLean-Foreman, CEO & Founder of Teikametrics, about the history of the platform, staying focused on the needs of your customers, shifting product requirements to meet your ideal buyer-personas, and their newly-minted formal product roadmap.
\n\nThis episode is brought to you by ExpressVPN.
\nClick through to get three months for free.
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: Teikametrics.
Sponsored By:
","summary":"Chad and Lindsey talk with Alasdair McLean-Foreman, CEO & Founder of Teikametrics, about the history of the platform, staying focused on the needs of your customers, shifting product requirements to meet your ideal buyer-personas, and their newly-minted formal product roadmap.","date_published":"2020-04-20T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/6892044d-12d3-4274-b2e0-9c79a482f1b8.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":48719791,"duration_in_seconds":3044}]},{"id":"60566f05-9508-4a8d-af4f-8e58aa731617","title":"Product Roadmaps","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/359","content_text":"Chad and Lindsey discuss their experiences around, and the pros and cons of, product road maps.\n\nEnroll in our free online-workshop on code audits How to supercharge your Rails application with a code audit\n\n\nScott Miller on Giant Robots\nQuora Thread on companies with public product roadmaps\nAirPower is Dead. Here's What Happened\nBuffer’s Transparent Product Roadmap\nSlack Platform Roadmap\nGitHub Universe Conference\nDevon Zuegel on Giant Robots\nWistia on Giant Robots\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chad and Lindsey discuss their experiences around, and the pros and cons of, product road maps.
\n\nEnroll in our free online-workshop on code audits How to supercharge your Rails application with a code audit
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chad and Lindsey discuss their experiences around, and the pros and cons of, product road maps.","date_published":"2020-04-06T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/60566f05-9508-4a8d-af4f-8e58aa731617.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":40131445,"duration_in_seconds":2508}]},{"id":"1655345b-a2c6-42e9-955f-615c624264e4","title":"Giant Robots v1","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/358","content_text":"Chad and Lindsey announce Giant Robots' latest evolution as a long-form startup series, following three startups over the course of a year. Throughout the season we will celebrate the wins, learn from the setbacks, explore how they approach high-concept issues, and truly capture the arc of a year in the life of their startup!\n\nEnroll in our free online-workshop on going remote Being Human in the Absence of Humans: A Live Q&A for Product Teams\n\n\nMichael Sheeley on Giant Robots\n\n\nNurse-1-1\n\nCourtney & Tye Caldwell on Giant Robots\n\n\nShearShare\n\nAatish Salvi on Giant Robots\n\n\nTeikametrics\n\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chad and Lindsey announce Giant Robots' latest evolution as a long-form startup series, following three startups over the course of a year. Throughout the season we will celebrate the wins, learn from the setbacks, explore how they approach high-concept issues, and truly capture the arc of a year in the life of their startup!
\n\nEnroll in our free online-workshop on going remote Being Human in the Absence of Humans: A Live Q&A for Product Teams
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chad and Lindsey announce Giant Robots' latest evolution as a long-form startup series, following three startups over the course of a year. Throughout the season we will celebrate the wins, learn from the setbacks, explore how they approach high-concept issues, and truly capture the arc of a year in the life of their startup!","date_published":"2020-03-30T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/1655345b-a2c6-42e9-955f-615c624264e4.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":18341156,"duration_in_seconds":1083}]},{"id":"509d1f0b-ded8-474a-a915-c51a90ea6ea0","title":"357: Sustainable Growth Hacking (Anuj Adhiya)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/357","content_text":"Anuj Adhiya, VP of Growth at Jamber, discusses 'growth' vs 'growth hacking', growing value through your north-star metric, A/B testing, and sustainability.\n\nThis episode is brought to you by ExpressVPN.\nClick through to get three months for free.\n\n\nJamber\nGrowth Hacking For Dummies\nKaren Rubin on Giant Robots\nGrowthHackers AMA with Karen Rubin\nPirate Metrics\nAnuj on Twitter\nNerd-out about growth hacking w/ Anuj!\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!Sponsored By:ExpressVPN: Click through to get three months for free!","content_html":"Anuj Adhiya, VP of Growth at Jamber, discusses 'growth' vs 'growth hacking', growing value through your north-star metric, A/B testing, and sustainability.
\n\nThis episode is brought to you by ExpressVPN.
\nClick through to get three months for free.
See open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Sponsored By:
","summary":"Anuj Adhiya, VP of Growth at Jamber, discusses 'growth' vs 'growth hacking', growing value through your north-star metric, A/B testing, and sustainability.","date_published":"2020-03-23T00:15:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/509d1f0b-ded8-474a-a915-c51a90ea6ea0.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":48865120,"duration_in_seconds":3054}]},{"id":"2aa4b8d0-c417-4ff3-a2d4-ec1031fe0fd8","title":"356: Start From the Beginning (Scott Miller)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/356","content_text":"Scott Miller, CEO of Dragon Innovation and co-founder of Bolt, discusses building out manufacturing from a prototype, sustainability & environmentalism, and working with thoughtbot to validate a software idea.\n\n\nDragon Innovation\nBolt\nDragon Standard BOM\nHalloween Robot v2\nAdruino Bathroom Sensor Breakdown on Giant Robots\nScott on LinkedIn\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Scott Miller, CEO of Dragon Innovation and co-founder of Bolt, discusses building out manufacturing from a prototype, sustainability & environmentalism, and working with thoughtbot to validate a software idea.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Scott Miller, CEO of Dragon Innovation and co-founder of Bolt, discusses building out manufacturing from a prototype, sustainability & environmentalism, and working with thoughtbot to validate a software idea.","date_published":"2020-02-24T00:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/2aa4b8d0-c417-4ff3-a2d4-ec1031fe0fd8.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":44795451,"duration_in_seconds":2799}]},{"id":"8454a29a-1dd7-4d8f-8b2c-e8714243c94d","title":"355: The New Hospitality (Maria Loughlin)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/355","content_text":"Maria Loughlin, VP of Engineering at Toast, discusses restaurants adaptation to new technology, her approach to building and supporting a team, and providing better business opportunities & education to their clients.\n\n\nToast\nToast.org\nMaria on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Maria Loughlin, VP of Engineering at Toast, discusses restaurants adaptation to new technology, her approach to building and supporting a team, and providing better business opportunities & education to their clients.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Maria Loughlin, VP of Engineering at Toast, discusses restaurants adaptation to new technology, her approach to building and supporting a team, and providing better business opportunities & education to their clients.","date_published":"2020-02-17T00:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/8454a29a-1dd7-4d8f-8b2c-e8714243c94d.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":33989952,"duration_in_seconds":2124}]},{"id":"3bf9a1ad-fbe2-4807-8e39-571b9d24ffe2","title":"354: Securing Opportunity (Shelly Bell)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/354","content_text":"Shelly Bell, CEO & Founder of Black Girl Ventures, discusses working to open up your messaging, what makes for a good pitch, and the current state of the investment landscape.\n\n\nBlack Girl Ventures\nRagbaby Exchange\nBEACON\n\"Male and Female Entrepreneurs Get Asked Different Questions by VCs — and It Affects How Much Funding They Get\"- Harvard Business Review\nSheRaise\nShelly on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Shelly Bell, CEO & Founder of Black Girl Ventures, discusses working to open up your messaging, what makes for a good pitch, and the current state of the investment landscape.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Shelly Bell, CEO & Founder of Black Girl Ventures, discusses working to open up your messaging, what makes for a good pitch, and the current state of the investment landscape.","date_published":"2020-02-10T00:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/3bf9a1ad-fbe2-4807-8e39-571b9d24ffe2.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":34742279,"duration_in_seconds":2171}]},{"id":"8b48815b-c7b3-4380-a5d6-735990b914c8","title":"353: Built off of Hustle (Ashlee Ammons & Kerry Schrader)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/353","content_text":"Ashlee Ammons & Kerry Schrader, co-founders of Mixtroz, discuss the pain points in attending networking events, building an app from a non-technical / non-entrepreneurial background, and share some of their personal challenges along the way.\n\n\nMixtroz\nThe Third Wave- Steve Case\nAshlee on Instagram\nKerry on Instagram\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Ashlee Ammons & Kerry Schrader, co-founders of Mixtroz, discuss the pain points in attending networking events, building an app from a non-technical / non-entrepreneurial background, and share some of their personal challenges along the way.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Ashlee Ammons & Kerry Schrader, co-founders of Mixtroz, discuss the pain points in attending networking events, building an app from a non-technical / non-entrepreneurial background, and share some of their personal challenges along the way.","date_published":"2020-02-03T00:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/8b48815b-c7b3-4380-a5d6-735990b914c8.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":43267393,"duration_in_seconds":2704}]},{"id":"9334cd8c-02d7-4d0b-872f-f6b19f433039","title":"352: How Stories Are Told (Matt Daniels)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/352","content_text":"Matt Daniels, journalist at The Pudding, discusses journalistic editorial funding models, translating ideas through visual communication, their content-creation processes, and measuring 'success' in creative work.\n\n\nThe Pudding\nPolygraph\nShape Up- Basecamp\nShangri-La (recording studio)\nHolacracy\nEditorial Data Viz Lunch 'n Learn @ thoughtbot\nMatt on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Matt Daniels, journalist at The Pudding, discusses journalistic editorial funding models, translating ideas through visual communication, their content-creation processes, and measuring 'success' in creative work.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Matt Daniels, journalist at _The Pudding_, discusses journalistic editorial funding models, translating ideas through visual communication, their content-creation processes, and measuring 'success' in creative work.","date_published":"2020-01-27T00:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/9334cd8c-02d7-4d0b-872f-f6b19f433039.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":38249375,"duration_in_seconds":2390}]},{"id":"31f42eb5-6b45-428a-ad9b-a3e05290aaff","title":"351: The Forecast Calls For Goals","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/351","content_text":"Chad & Lindsey welcome in the new year at thoughtbot, discussing actually having a budget, setting corporate goals, and the rise and fall of 'Use Your Best Judgement' as thoughtbot's principle zero.\n\n\nOKR Framework\nOGSM Framework\nHealth Tech Workshop: How to stay agile when building compliant health tech products\nTraction: Get a Grip on Your Business- Gino Wickman\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chad & Lindsey welcome in the new year at thoughtbot, discussing actually having a budget, setting corporate goals, and the rise and fall of 'Use Your Best Judgement' as thoughtbot's principle zero.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chad & Lindsey welcome in the new year at thoughtbot, discussing actually having a budget, setting corporate goals, and the rise and fall of 'Use Your Best Judgement' as thoughtbot's principle zero.","date_published":"2020-01-21T00:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/31f42eb5-6b45-428a-ad9b-a3e05290aaff.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":36333032,"duration_in_seconds":2270}]},{"id":"064150a2-de94-4a0d-a9ea-80c4600100b4","title":"350: Beyond Transit (Tiffany Chu)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/350","content_text":"Tiffany Chu, CEO of Remix, discusses the different entities involved in transportation initiatives, pivoting to service an unanticipated user-group, and utilizing open-source in civic tech.RemixOpenStreetMapTiffany on TwitterSee open positions at thoughtbot!Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Tiffany Chu, CEO of Remix, discusses the different entities involved in transportation initiatives, pivoting to service an unanticipated user-group, and utilizing open-source in civic tech.
See open positions at thoughtbot!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Tiffany Chu, CEO of Remix, discusses the different entities involved in transportation initiatives, pivoting to service an unanticipated user-group, and utilizing open-source in civic tech.","date_published":"2020-01-13T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/2fd03722-2843-4bbf-b39a-0947cb0508b0.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":30587346,"duration_in_seconds":1911}]},{"id":"f57936b0-6c4b-4d95-82f7-192d224384ef","title":"349: Better Information (Lokesh Dani)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/349","content_text":"Lokesh Dani, founder of Xopolis, discusses researching the future of work, democratizing opportunity in the labor market, and focusing on the user experience.XopolisNSF Innovation CorpsLokesh on LinkedInSee open positions at thoughtbot!Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Lokesh Dani, founder of Xopolis, discusses researching the future of work, democratizing opportunity in the labor market, and focusing on the user experience.
See open positions at thoughtbot!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Lokesh Dani, founder of Xopolis, discusses researching the future of work, democratizing opportunity in the labor market, and focusing on the user experience.","date_published":"2020-01-06T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/93e9fe58-dcf4-4cda-a49e-b41d5c4b28d5.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":32818413,"duration_in_seconds":2051}]},{"id":"1fc0f948-c850-4453-ad58-299ad6ea94b0","title":"348: Tailor to the Experience (Karen Rubin)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/348","content_text":"Karen Rubin, CRO at Owl Labs, discusses embracing playful aspects of your product, tailoring their marketing focus, managing growth in a B2B e-commerce company, the landscape of remote work, the complexities of building and selling a physical product, lessons learned from launching products at Hubspot, and building a team with strong female leadership.Owl LabsOwl as a BatThe Company Culture CookbookKaren on TwitterSee open positions at thoughtbot!Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Karen Rubin, CRO at Owl Labs, discusses embracing playful aspects of your product, tailoring their marketing focus, managing growth in a B2B e-commerce company, the landscape of remote work, the complexities of building and selling a physical product, lessons learned from launching products at Hubspot, and building a team with strong female leadership.
See open positions at thoughtbot!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Karen Rubin, CRO at Owl Labs, discusses embracing playful aspects of your product, tailoring their marketing focus, managing growth in a B2B e-commerce company, the landscape of remote work, the complexities of building and selling a physical product, lessons learned from launching products at Hubspot, and building a team with strong female leadership.","date_published":"2019-12-30T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/629131b5-9b7b-440f-ad53-dccb80412f01.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":43036679,"duration_in_seconds":2689}]},{"id":"d2f09b17-6ebf-42ac-8d3f-100559a7fb72","title":"347: Deliver Better Services (Robin Carnahan)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/347","content_text":"Robin Carnahan, Director of State & Local Practice at 18F, discusses introducing tech into government as the Missouri Secretary of State, facilitating tech-education within the federal government, and the types of needs to which 18F responds.18Flogin.govcloud.govLaunchCodeRobin on TwitterSee open positions at thoughtbot!Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Robin Carnahan, Director of State & Local Practice at 18F, discusses introducing tech into government as the Missouri Secretary of State, facilitating tech-education within the federal government, and the types of needs to which 18F responds.
See open positions at thoughtbot!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Robin Carnahan, Director of State & Local Practice at 18F, discusses introducing tech into government as the Missouri Secretary of State, facilitating tech-education within the federal government, and the types of needs to which 18F responds.","date_published":"2019-12-09T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/fee6ecdf-054a-4ccf-a91e-8c5b68c18e0b.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":27930380,"duration_in_seconds":1745}]},{"id":"b101705d-1d2a-4d1d-99a0-5a78316211cb","title":"346: Empower Users (Geoff DiMasi)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/346","content_text":"Geoff DiMasi, founder of Punk Ave. & Apostrophe, discusses his drive to build a CMS, balancing maintaining a service company while building a product (as well as the thought-process of spinning out a product into its own company), the Philadelphia tech-scene, and transitioning to a remote company.ApostropheCMSApostrophe Open SourceOpen Source at thoughtbotUpcaseObjectives and Key Results(OKR) SystemIndy Hall Coworking SpaceJAMstackHeadless CMSGeoff on TwitterSee open positions at thoughtbot!Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Geoff DiMasi, founder of Punk Ave. & Apostrophe, discusses his drive to build a CMS, balancing maintaining a service company while building a product (as well as the thought-process of spinning out a product into its own company), the Philadelphia tech-scene, and transitioning to a remote company.
See open positions at thoughtbot!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Geoff DiMasi, founder of Punk Ave. & Apostrophe, discusses his drive to build a CMS, balancing maintaining a service company while building a product (as well as the thought-process of spinning out a product into its own company), the Philadelphia tech-scene, and transitioning to a remote company.","date_published":"2019-12-02T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/7ca453a2-9ca6-44f7-b7d3-6af1fc9ef43e.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":39424676,"duration_in_seconds":2464}]},{"id":"c05d674a-4837-4c2f-a591-d2735adc2f6f","title":"345: Conviction in the Problem (Alex Cornell)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/345","content_text":"Alex Cornell, co-founder of Cocoon, discusses opportunity cost, prototyping methodology, having design skills as a founder, designing for intuition, and being invested in the problem you want to solve.CocoonNotionOrigami PrototypingApply to Y CombinatorAlex on TwitterSee open positions at thoughtbot!Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Alex Cornell, co-founder of Cocoon, discusses opportunity cost, prototyping methodology, having design skills as a founder, designing for intuition, and being invested in the problem you want to solve.
See open positions at thoughtbot!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Alex Cornell, co-founder of Cocoon, discusses opportunity cost, prototyping methodology, having design skills as a founder, designing for intuition, and being invested in the problem you want to solve.","date_published":"2019-11-25T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/79f71090-2145-4969-bba1-d3ca1404b1b6.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":41343526,"duration_in_seconds":2583}]},{"id":"ae961198-e652-4a6b-b784-bfeb38258546","title":"344: Facilitating Innovation (Heather Ames)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/344","content_text":"Heather Ames, co-founder and COO of Neurala, discusses automated visual-inspection, balancing research with deployment, the challenges of productizing AI, and finding the right product/customer fit.NeuralaBrain BuilderHeather on TwitterSee open positions at thoughtbot!Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Heather Ames, co-founder and COO of Neurala, discusses automated visual-inspection, balancing research with deployment, the challenges of productizing AI, and finding the right product/customer fit.
See open positions at thoughtbot!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Heather Ames, co-founder and COO of Neurala, discusses automated visual-inspection, balancing research with deployment, the challenges of productizing AI, and finding the right product/customer fit.","date_published":"2019-11-18T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/a925bca6-cdc4-4e6b-80cd-e96238ff2633.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":31120662,"duration_in_seconds":1945}]},{"id":"95732487-dbe7-4b3a-8cff-9c1f55ca80f6","title":"343: A True Movement (Pariss Athena)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/343","content_text":"Pariss Athena, Hiring & Product Team Member at G2i, creator of #BlackTechTwitter, and founder of Black Tech Pipeline, shares her journey from never hearing about code to viral awareness campaign creator, as well as discusses visibility, finding value on twitter, and life online with thousands of followers.Resilient CodersThe Tweet that started #BlackTechTwitter\"Hannibal Buress Is Building An Arts And Technology Center For The Future Masterminds Of The West Side\"Black Tech PipelinePariss on TwitterSee open positions at thoughtbot!Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Pariss Athena, Hiring & Product Team Member at G2i, creator of #BlackTechTwitter, and founder of Black Tech Pipeline, shares her journey from never hearing about code to viral awareness campaign creator, as well as discusses visibility, finding value on twitter, and life online with thousands of followers.
See open positions at thoughtbot!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Pariss Athena, Hiring & Product Team Member at G2i, creator of #BlackTechTwitter, and founder of Black Tech Pipeline, shares her journey from never hearing about code to viral awareness campaign creator, as well as discusses visibility, finding value on twitter, and life online with thousands of followers.","date_published":"2019-11-04T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/dffc9eb0-41ee-406f-a2ae-7cc4577b52ad.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":26644319,"duration_in_seconds":1665}]},{"id":"d4a69b52-8bf1-452d-8dd5-48797c0ffcd6","title":"342: The People Stuff (Jennifer Dary)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/342","content_text":"Jennifer Dary, founder of Plucky, rejoins the podcast to discuss the rarity of listening, what it feels like to have a six year-old company, and conducts a 1:1 for managers with Lindsey & Chad.PluckyJennifer on Giant Robots ep 270Executive Coach or Therapist?1:1 Manager Pack'So Now You're a Manager' TrainingD&D OnlinePlucky NewsletterJennifer on TwitterSee open positions at thoughtbot!Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Jennifer Dary, founder of Plucky, rejoins the podcast to discuss the rarity of listening, what it feels like to have a six year-old company, and conducts a 1:1 for managers with Lindsey & Chad.
See open positions at thoughtbot!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Jennifer Dary, founder of Plucky, rejoins the podcast to discuss the rarity of listening, what it feels like to have a six year-old company, and conducts a 1:1 for managers with Lindsey & Chad.","date_published":"2019-10-28T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/5bedda1f-7f97-4ab8-bde9-b81ae9a685a3.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":43514407,"duration_in_seconds":2719}]},{"id":"acb8248f-50b8-418a-954d-71a5d51a1373","title":"341: From Survival to Growth (David Kaplan)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/341","content_text":"David Kaplan, head of engineering at Policygenius, discusses joining an established company in a leadership role, factors for long-term success, choosing Flutter over React Native, and challenging assumptions when building out an MVP.PolicygeniusFlutter vs. React NativeDavid on LinkedInSee open positions at thoughtbot!Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"David Kaplan, head of engineering at Policygenius, discusses joining an established company in a leadership role, factors for long-term success, choosing Flutter over React Native, and challenging assumptions when building out an MVP.
See open positions at thoughtbot!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"David Kaplan, head of engineering at Policygenius, discusses joining an established company in a leadership role, factors for long-term success, choosing Flutter over React Native, and challenging assumptions when building out an MVP.","date_published":"2019-10-21T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/67c7fe53-fe27-4474-b82e-ec38509ef8b0.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":35204960,"duration_in_seconds":2200}]},{"id":"4aeb4330-4c9a-4b39-a90b-c3131f6ba670","title":"340: Accessible, Ethical, Inclusive (Cat Noone)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/340","content_text":"Cat Noone, CEO of Stark, shares an overview of accessible design, dreams for shaping a more accessible future, helming custom support with a small team, and her motivation to create.StarkWeb Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG)LyraA Stark Difference in Design NewletterCat on TwitterSee open positions at thoughtbot!Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Cat Noone, CEO of Stark, shares an overview of accessible design, dreams for shaping a more accessible future, helming custom support with a small team, and her motivation to create.
See open positions at thoughtbot!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Cat Noone, CEO of Stark, shares an overview of accessible design, dreams for shaping a more accessible future, helming custom support with a small team, and her motivation to create.","date_published":"2019-10-14T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/a704652e-9aca-4e33-9f79-92f4e3b7ca9d.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":30820150,"duration_in_seconds":1926}]},{"id":"7d531437-e65c-434a-a70b-ab7f1c1f0ccc","title":"339: Process Goals (Andrew Steele)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/339","content_text":"Andrew Steele, Olympic Medalist & Head of Product at DNAfit, discusses providing actionable wellness utility from DNA data, goal setting, \"blame culture\", localization, and his time at the Beijing Olympics.DNAfitBeijing 4x400m Relay Men's FinalIcarus (2017)20% off Health Fit for Giant Robots Listenersin $USDIn £GBP Andrew on TwitterSee open positions at thoughtbot!Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Andrew Steele, Olympic Medalist & Head of Product at DNAfit, discusses providing actionable wellness utility from DNA data, goal setting, "blame culture", localization, and his time at the Beijing Olympics.
See open positions at thoughtbot!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Andrew Steele, Olympic Medalist & Head of Product at DNAfit, discusses providing actionable wellness utility from DNA data, goal setting, \"blame culture\", localization, and his time at the Beijing Olympics.","date_published":"2019-10-07T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/6738afb7-aa9f-4b78-8025-f89db489ee78.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":36743050,"duration_in_seconds":2296}]},{"id":"c1133057-4974-49af-a749-58f4ecd9937e","title":"338: Automating SaaS (Bryan Helmig)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/338","content_text":"Bryan Helmig, cofounder & CTO of Zapier, discusses extending tooling to small businesses through API integration, scaling, early marketing successes, and the future of automation. ZapierContact BryanSee open positions at thoughtbot!Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Bryan Helmig, cofounder & CTO of Zapier, discusses extending tooling to small businesses through API integration, scaling, early marketing successes, and the future of automation.
See open positions at thoughtbot!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Bryan Helmig, cofounder & CTO of Zapier, discusses extending tooling to small businesses through API integration, scaling, early marketing successes, and the future of automation.","date_published":"2019-09-30T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/b83fc873-3e82-499b-9e05-ac267ec5250b.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":38295350,"duration_in_seconds":2393}]},{"id":"be0153d9-38da-40f8-be15-e86e3a6ff3bd","title":"337: Outcomes, Not Outputs (Adam Scroggin)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/337","content_text":"Adam Scroggin, CEO of CardBoard, discusses user story mapping, consulting vs product work, the importance of goal setting, product market fit, and his favorite tools & services for building web apps.CardBoardHeroku Private SpacesContact AdamSee open positions at thoughtbot!Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Adam Scroggin, CEO of CardBoard, discusses user story mapping, consulting vs product work, the importance of goal setting, product market fit, and his favorite tools & services for building web apps.
See open positions at thoughtbot!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Adam Scroggin, CEO of CardBoard, discusses user story mapping, consulting vs product work, the importance of goal setting, product market fit, and his favorite tools & services for building web apps.","date_published":"2019-09-23T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/947d79f9-6b2f-4c32-b006-1cd83178b5e2.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":40610008,"duration_in_seconds":2538}]},{"id":"c5fe4800-540e-417c-a331-2b98f1c9b8fd","title":"336: There's No Manual (Chris Coyier)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/336","content_text":"Chris Coyier, cofounder of CodePen, creator of CSS-Tricks, & host of Shop Talk Show, candidly shares how a weekend project turned into a full-time business, aspirations for the future, and areas for improvement.CodePenCSS-TricksShop Talk Show PodcastTechTVChrisCoyier.netChris on TwitterSee open positions at thoughtbot!Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chris Coyier, cofounder of CodePen, creator of CSS-Tricks, & host of Shop Talk Show, candidly shares how a weekend project turned into a full-time business, aspirations for the future, and areas for improvement.
See open positions at thoughtbot!
Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chris Coyier, cofounder of CodePen, creator of CSS-Tricks, & host of Shop Talk Show, candidly shares how a weekend project turned into a full-time business, aspirations for the future, and areas for improvement.","date_published":"2019-09-16T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/d26d5ce0-1508-409f-894d-5fcdd9021a48.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":38984565,"duration_in_seconds":2436}]},{"id":"341c8f95-8306-4f9f-988a-aaafe8757999","title":"335: Discipline & Creativity (Jonathan Cutrell)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/335","content_text":"Jonathan Cutrell, host of Developer Tea and Senior Engineer at Clearbit, discusses the history of the podcast, motivation for creation, learning to say 'no', and what it means to truly be 'remote-friendly'.\n\n\nClearbit\nDeveloper Tea Podcast\nSpec\nTea Break Challenge\nJonathan on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Jonathan Cutrell, host of Developer Tea and Senior Engineer at Clearbit, discusses the history of the podcast, motivation for creation, learning to say 'no', and what it means to truly be 'remote-friendly'.
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Jonathan Cutrell, host of Developer Tea and Senior Engineer at Clearbit, discusses the history of the podcast, motivation for creation, learning to say 'no', and what it means to truly be 'remote-friendly'.","date_published":"2019-09-09T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/8418fc9f-3b6c-4d6a-9fac-5152b30963d5.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":29638997,"duration_in_seconds":1852}]},{"id":"fc981a6d-9dfd-40a4-ab56-8f9b36faf688","title":"334: Preserve and Extend (Devon Zuegel)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/334","content_text":"Devon Zuegel, Product Manager at GitHub, discusses her transition from researcher to product manager, and shepherding the funding, communication, and tooling of open source sustainability.\n\n\nGitHub\nDevon on The Bike Shed\nGitHub Sponsors\nLet’s talk about open source sustainability\nGitHub Satellite 2019\nthoughtbot open source projects\nDevon on Twitter\n\n\nLearn more about open source at thoughtbot.\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Devon Zuegel, Product Manager at GitHub, discusses her transition from researcher to product manager, and shepherding the funding, communication, and tooling of open source sustainability.
\n\nLearn more about open source at thoughtbot.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Devon Zuegel, Product Manager at GitHub, discusses her transition from researcher to product manager, and shepherding the funding, communication, and tooling of open source sustainability.","date_published":"2019-09-02T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/edffc442-ed72-4b0f-98bb-f73b2d02bc4a.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":39735219,"duration_in_seconds":2483}]},{"id":"bb8162e7-640f-46a0-ab12-83f488a7ef75","title":"333: Do Fewer Things Better (Matt Massicotte)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/333","content_text":"Matt Massicotte, creator of Chime, discusses the landscape of text editors, the complexities of writing your own parsers, building a new product while building a new family, and alternative app platform & pricing models.\n\n\nChime\nMatt on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Matt Massicotte, creator of Chime, discusses the landscape of text editors, the complexities of writing your own parsers, building a new product while building a new family, and alternative app platform & pricing models.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Matt Massicotte, creator of Chime, discusses the landscape of text editors, the complexities of writing your own parsers, building a new product while building a new family, and alternative app platform & pricing models.","date_published":"2019-08-26T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/1261e9f7-8fbe-492f-be09-c7104b5e5b56.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":36829567,"duration_in_seconds":2301}]},{"id":"8c228a8d-a4eb-423a-8a75-99a6bdca0552","title":"332: Grow to Accommodate (Jordan Berke)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/332","content_text":"Jordan Berke, CEO & founder of RepOne Strength, discusses finding your customers, working in the world of open source hardware, sourcing materials, relentless work pace, and bootstrapping.\n\n\nRepOne Strength\nOpen Source NYC\n\"Bill Gates says startup founders should not take weekends or vacations in the early days of building a company\"- Business Insider\nJordan on LinkedIn\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Jordan Berke, CEO & founder of RepOne Strength, discusses finding your customers, working in the world of open source hardware, sourcing materials, relentless work pace, and bootstrapping.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Jordan Berke, CEO & founder of RepOne Strength, discusses finding your customers, working in the world of open source hardware, sourcing materials, relentless work pace, and bootstrapping.","date_published":"2019-08-19T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/6fdc3a5d-388b-40c2-ab7d-8031b6088f85.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":31753871,"duration_in_seconds":1984}]},{"id":"f942ee5d-7966-46fa-9ffb-3791de6a8cb2","title":"331: Deep Industry Expertise (Courtney & Tye Caldwell)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/331","content_text":"Courtney & Tye Caldwell, Co-founders of ShearShare, discuss their journey from salon owners to startup founders, defining an MVP and maintaining a narrow focus for your product.\n\n\nShearShare\nMentored by Failure- Tye Caldwell\nShearShare Simplifying Financials\nTech.Co Startup of the Year 2016\nCourtney on Twitter\nTye on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!Special Guest: ShearShare.","content_html":"Courtney & Tye Caldwell, Co-founders of ShearShare, discuss their journey from salon owners to startup founders, defining an MVP and maintaining a narrow focus for your product.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: ShearShare.
","summary":"Courtney & Tye Caldwell, Co-founders of ShearShare, discuss their journey from salon owners to startup founders, defining an MVP and maintaining a narrow focus for your product.","date_published":"2019-08-12T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/d7b0839c-65c6-4997-9083-a97420a60176.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":48597626,"duration_in_seconds":3037}]},{"id":"7f8c65ac-5f46-4236-a7fd-748f1df62379","title":"330: There's So Much Potential (Tess Posner)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/330","content_text":"Tess Posner, CEO of AI4ALL, gives an overview of the field of AI and discusses representation in AI careers, the ramifications of not having diversity in tech, the role of allies, and the future of work.\n\n\nAI4ALL\nAI4ALL Summer Programs\n\"Decoding Diversity\"- Intel study on the financial and economic returns to diversity in tech\n\"Tech Leavers Study\"- from Kapor Center for Social Impact\n\"There is a diversity crisis in AI, but together we can fix it.\"- Tess Posner\nAlgorithms of Oppression- Safiya Umoja Noble\nAutomating Inequality- Virginia Eubanks\nThe Gender Shades Project\nAOC on Automation (SxSW 2019)\nOpportunity@Work\nOpen Learning\nTess on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Tess Posner, CEO of AI4ALL, gives an overview of the field of AI and discusses representation in AI careers, the ramifications of not having diversity in tech, the role of allies, and the future of work.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Tess Posner, CEO of AI4ALL, gives an overview of the field of AI and discusses representation in AI careers, the ramifications of not having diversity in tech, the role of allies, and the future of work.","date_published":"2019-08-05T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/396063ed-174e-4c00-b828-9b06f935ca25.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":39734193,"duration_in_seconds":2480}]},{"id":"a1233c81-20cc-43e6-b3c5-57d8f1dabace","title":"329: The Detail Stuff (Jon Werner)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/329","content_text":"Jon Werner, CEO & Co-Founder of KOYA Innovations, discusses running a startup with his family, protecting one's intellectual property, the importance of forethought, and developing a platform for kindness.\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:\n\n\nISL Online\nIndeed Prime\n\n\nLinks & Show Notes\n\n\nKoya\nJon on LinkedIn\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Jon Werner, CEO & Co-Founder of KOYA Innovations, discusses running a startup with his family, protecting one's intellectual property, the importance of forethought, and developing a platform for kindness.
\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:
\n\nLinks & Show Notes
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Jon Werner, CEO & Co-Founder of KOYA Innovations, discusses running a startup with his family, protecting one's intellectual property, the importance of forethought, and developing a platform for kindness.","date_published":"2019-07-29T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/da7b1225-65e8-46b7-a00f-ffd715e25433.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":50642440,"duration_in_seconds":3161}]},{"id":"410b41df-939d-4b9c-ac97-a398ee547dee","title":"328: Reliability First (Rob Zuber)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/328","content_text":"Rob Zuber, CTO of CircleCI, discusses prioritizing product direction, scaling, slow iteration to introduce major changes, and what's next for the platform.\n\n\nCircleCI\nChaos Engineering\nOrbs\nRob on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Rob Zuber, CTO of CircleCI, discusses prioritizing product direction, scaling, slow iteration to introduce major changes, and what's next for the platform.
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Rob Zuber, CTO of CircleCI, discusses prioritizing product direction, scaling, slow iteration to introduce major changes, and what's next for the platform.","date_published":"2019-07-22T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/0071c850-533c-403d-b035-de46f5e34cbd.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":40365659,"duration_in_seconds":2519}]},{"id":"82a780c7-4fd5-4ce6-b9da-dbed1bc0f4c1","title":"327: Lead By Listening (Kate Brigham)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/327","content_text":"Kate Brigham, VP of Product, Design, & Research at ezCater, discusses organizational design, roadmaps, user-research, designing to solve the needs of several groups at once, and, as a leader, empowering others to solve problems.\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:\n\n\nISL Online\nIndeed Prime\n\n\nLinks & Show Notes\n\n\nezCater\nStefania Mallett on Giant Robots\nPatientsLikeMe\nKate on Twitter\nKate on LinkedIn\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Kate Brigham, VP of Product, Design, & Research at ezCater, discusses organizational design, roadmaps, user-research, designing to solve the needs of several groups at once, and, as a leader, empowering others to solve problems.
\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:
\n\nLinks & Show Notes
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Kate Brigham, VP of Product, Design, & Research at ezCater, discusses organizational design, roadmaps, user-research, designing to solve the needs of several groups at once, and, as a leader, empowering others to solve problems.","date_published":"2019-07-08T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/33c6accd-70e9-4789-8601-9a1b0f062c77.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":43652908,"duration_in_seconds":2724}]},{"id":"25b96ca3-bca7-46b2-9d5e-1af8607a57ab","title":"326: Building the Whole Landscape (Morgan Evans)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/326","content_text":"Morgan Evans, organizational designer and CEO & Founder of Business Casual, discusses developing systems to holistically design a company, building a culture that is receptive to feedback, conflict mediation, acknowledging emotions while at work, and early days at Etsy.\n\n\nBusiness Casual\nMorgan on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Morgan Evans, organizational designer and CEO & Founder of Business Casual, discusses developing systems to holistically design a company, building a culture that is receptive to feedback, conflict mediation, acknowledging emotions while at work, and early days at Etsy.
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Morgan Evans, organizational designer and CEO & Founder of Business Casual, discusses developing systems to holistically design a company, building a culture that is receptive to feedback, conflict mediation, acknowledging emotions while at work, and early days at Etsy.","date_published":"2019-07-01T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/0d69699a-87e9-413e-ae98-572ba12b05da.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":41336996,"duration_in_seconds":2580}]},{"id":"b3bfdb4e-4898-4ad8-bc01-c6a4ef8015fa","title":"325: Wallet-Power (Vanessa Bruce)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/325","content_text":"Vanessa Bruce, co-founder of Dough, discusses affecting change through individual purchase-power, how she handles context-switching, choosing a platform to optimize for content creation, the challenge of visibility, and the decision to launch nationally.\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:\n\n\nISL Online\nIndeed Prime\n\n\nLinks & Show Notes\n\n\nDough\nDough Membership\nOpen Salaries at Buffer\nVanessa on LinkedIn\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Vanessa Bruce, co-founder of Dough, discusses affecting change through individual purchase-power, how she handles context-switching, choosing a platform to optimize for content creation, the challenge of visibility, and the decision to launch nationally.
\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:
\n\nLinks & Show Notes
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Vanessa Bruce, co-founder of Dough, discusses affecting change through individual purchase-power, how she handles context-switching, choosing a platform to optimize for content creation, the challenge of visibility, and the decision to launch nationally.","date_published":"2019-06-24T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/27ecc2b4-9cdc-4943-87cd-b037f19a0fa8.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":39170714,"duration_in_seconds":2444}]},{"id":"ab953c63-563b-449a-9173-b87563457b63","title":"324: Tap the Market (Karyl Fowler)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/324","content_text":"Karyl Fowler, CEO & Co-founder of Transmute, discusses utilizing block chain for decentralized identity-management, exploring finding the right customer profile fits, education around data-security, her time at Techstars, and the startup community in Austin.\n\n\nTransmute\nTransmute ID\nTechstars\nTransmute News Blog\nKaryl on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Karyl Fowler, CEO & Co-founder of Transmute, discusses utilizing block chain for decentralized identity-management, exploring finding the right customer profile fits, education around data-security, her time at Techstars, and the startup community in Austin.
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Karyl Fowler, CEO & Co-founder of Transmute, discusses utilizing block chain for decentralized identity-management, exploring finding the right customer profile fits, education around data-security, her time at Techstars, and the startup community in Austin.","date_published":"2019-06-17T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/bb742294-7903-4334-875e-8e3cf6aeb5cb.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":46044053,"duration_in_seconds":2874}]},{"id":"5cd92436-05fd-4b3f-a3a5-03f02f0d59a1","title":"323: Mission Focused (Kristy Wallace)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/323","content_text":"Kristy Wallace, CEO of Ellevate Network, discusses cross-industry community building, utilizing tech to facilitate connections, scaling without losing personal impact, and becoming a certified B Corp.\n\n\nEllevate Network\nThe Five Love Languages: Gary Chapman\nPipeline Angels\nB Corporation\nB Impact Assessment\nEllevate Podcast: Conversations With Women Changing the Face of Business\nKristy on Twitter\nKristy on LinkedIn\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Kristy Wallace, CEO of Ellevate Network, discusses cross-industry community building, utilizing tech to facilitate connections, scaling without losing personal impact, and becoming a certified B Corp.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Kristy Wallace, CEO of Ellevate Network, discusses cross-industry community building, utilizing tech to facilitate connections, scaling without losing personal impact, and becoming a certified B Corp.","date_published":"2019-06-10T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/9581f4b8-5073-4f8e-85db-f8dfeddd2c1e.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":37528134,"duration_in_seconds":2342}]},{"id":"6f47b664-c62c-4ac7-9c83-bb1153336eed","title":"322: Measure Equity (Paloma Medina)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/322","content_text":"Paloma Medina, performance coach, trainer, and owner of 11:11 Supply, discusses translating her brick & mortar store experience to an online shop, the themes around her coaching, design thinking, and how equity is linked to our long-term physical health.\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:\nPricingWire: Monetization & Pricing Strategy for Software & Technology Innovators\n\nLinks & Show Notes\n\n\n11:11 Supply\nCW Pencil Enterprise\nPaloma @ TEDx Portland\nPaloma on LinkedIn\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Paloma Medina, performance coach, trainer, and owner of 11:11 Supply, discusses translating her brick & mortar store experience to an online shop, the themes around her coaching, design thinking, and how equity is linked to our long-term physical health.
\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:
\nPricingWire: Monetization & Pricing Strategy for Software & Technology Innovators
Links & Show Notes
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Paloma Medina, performance coach, trainer, and owner of 11:11 Supply, discusses translating her brick & mortar store experience to an online shop, the themes around her coaching, design thinking, and how equity is linked to our long-term physical health.","date_published":"2019-05-28T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/7f8d215d-d0ba-408b-bcfe-28dd291d73d9.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":41352879,"duration_in_seconds":2581}]},{"id":"2b2e0928-9566-4359-bcb6-60ca239ddcc0","title":"321: Building a Marketplace (Stefania Mallett)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/321","content_text":"Stefania Mallett, CEO and co-founder of ezCater, discusses non-compete agreements, maintaining an entrepreneurial spirit, codifying values, advice on building a marketplace, and the nuances of expanding globally.\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:\nPricingWire: Monetization & Pricing Strategy for Software & Technology Innovators\n\nLinks & Show Notes\n\n\nezCater\nEBITDA\nCaterUp! Conference\nStefania on LinkedIn\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Stefania Mallett, CEO and co-founder of ezCater, discusses non-compete agreements, maintaining an entrepreneurial spirit, codifying values, advice on building a marketplace, and the nuances of expanding globally.
\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:
\nPricingWire: Monetization & Pricing Strategy for Software & Technology Innovators
Links & Show Notes
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Stefania Mallett, CEO and co-founder of ezCater, discusses non-compete agreements, maintaining an entrepreneurial spirit, codifying values, advice on building a marketplace, and the nuances of expanding globally.","date_published":"2019-05-20T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/e6ea4c76-680d-45b1-86e3-38b1f6f46b57.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":44496350,"duration_in_seconds":2777}]},{"id":"daddac05-18e8-4e10-95f5-8797d2b110c5","title":"320: Lead Through Collaboration (Harold Hughes)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/320","content_text":"Harold Hughes, Founder & CEO of Bandwagon, discusses utilizing blockchain for security and personalization in event ticketing, data-transparency, his key to entrepreneurship, the importance of investment firms funding underrepresented groups, and speaking to the SEC.\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:\nPricingWire: Monetization & Pricing Strategy for Software & Technology Innovators\n\nLinks & Show Notes\n\n\nBandwagon\nFacebook Pixel\nFounder Institute Accelerator\nPayPal Mafia\nArlan Hamilton - Backstage Capital Story\nBackstage Capital\nSmall Business Week\nJOBS Act\nAura\nHarold on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Harold Hughes, Founder & CEO of Bandwagon, discusses utilizing blockchain for security and personalization in event ticketing, data-transparency, his key to entrepreneurship, the importance of investment firms funding underrepresented groups, and speaking to the SEC.
\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:
\nPricingWire: Monetization & Pricing Strategy for Software & Technology Innovators
Links & Show Notes
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Harold Hughes, Founder & CEO of Bandwagon, discusses utilizing blockchain for security and personalization in event ticketing, data-transparency, his key to entrepreneurship, the importance of investment firms funding underrepresented groups, and speaking to the SEC.","date_published":"2019-05-13T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/80292810-53a0-48fe-b516-a6bbcfbfdee8.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":42228503,"duration_in_seconds":2635}]},{"id":"1befd422-c631-4c1d-ad5e-9561cc5e3fbd","title":"319: Beyond Purpose (Bruce Daisley)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/319","content_text":"Bruce Daisley, VP EMEA at Twitter, discusses the international focus of Twitter, the importance of psychological-safety on workplace culture, diversity & striving for fulfillment for all workers, and fleeting happiness vs enduring purpose.\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:\nPricingWire: Monetization & Pricing Strategy for Software & Technology Innovators\n\nLinks & Show Notes\n\n\nTwitter\nEat Sleep Work Repeat Podcast\nNetflix Culture Statement\nPrevious Netflix Culture Deck\nPsychological Safety\nCrew Resource Management\nFraternity Experiment: \"The Advantages and Liabilities of Agreeing With Socially Distinct Newcomers\"\n\"Positive Affect\" in Doctors Study\nBlue Monday\nThe Joy of Work- Bruce Daisley\n\"How Millennials Became The Burnout Generation\"\nBruce on Twitter\nBruce on LinkedIn\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Bruce Daisley, VP EMEA at Twitter, discusses the international focus of Twitter, the importance of psychological-safety on workplace culture, diversity & striving for fulfillment for all workers, and fleeting happiness vs enduring purpose.
\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:
\nPricingWire: Monetization & Pricing Strategy for Software & Technology Innovators
Links & Show Notes
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Bruce Daisley, VP EMEA at Twitter, discusses the international focus of Twitter, the importance of psychological-safety on workplace culture, diversity & striving for fulfillment for all workers, and fleeting happiness vs enduring purpose.","date_published":"2019-05-07T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/43d67bc3-bb8c-4a41-b5ab-fc2c5a780fc6.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":38025923,"duration_in_seconds":2373}]},{"id":"c2d16f9b-8864-4eb0-b83e-820c6d25e0ee","title":"318: Scaling With People (Chris Sullens)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/318","content_text":"Chris Sullens, CEO of CentralReach, discusses needing to be cognizant of company culture while introducing new systems and a management team, the difficult task of hiring for culture, and how technology can help shape the future of ABA therapy.\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:\nPricingWire: Monetization & Pricing Strategy for Software & Technology Innovators\n\nLinks & Show Notes\n\n\nCentralReach\nCaliper Assessment\nChris on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chris Sullens, CEO of CentralReach, discusses needing to be cognizant of company culture while introducing new systems and a management team, the difficult task of hiring for culture, and how technology can help shape the future of ABA therapy.
\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:
\nPricingWire: Monetization & Pricing Strategy for Software & Technology Innovators
Links & Show Notes
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chris Sullens, CEO of CentralReach, discusses needing to be cognizant of company culture while introducing new systems and a management team, the difficult task of hiring for culture, and how technology can help shape the future of ABA therapy.","date_published":"2019-04-29T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/e8d3ab96-4af1-41ac-956d-cb195d5de304.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":38053091,"duration_in_seconds":2375}]},{"id":"a76bab84-c076-46da-98e6-ea52ac0ed4b8","title":"317: About Fulfillment (Ben Furber)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/317","content_text":"Ben Furber, Developer at thoughtbot London, presents a panel discussion around striving for professional fulfillment, as individuals, managers, and organizations.\n\nThe panelists touch on bringing your authentic self to work, finding organizations with value alignment, an environment where you're able to make mistakes, 'process' vs trust, rethinking retros, giving appreciative feedback, and honest conversations.\n\n\nJo Franchetti - Web Developer Advocate for Samsung Internet\nBen Furber - Developer and consultant for thoughtbot\nMelody King - Product Owner for Ieso Digital Health\nKay Lack - Director of Academy at Makers\nItti Singh - Frontend Developer for Ieso Digital Health\n\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:\nPricingWire: Monetization & Pricing Strategy for Software & Technology Innovators\n\nLinks & Show Notes\n\n\nThe Fulfilled Developer- Event Details\nMaslow's Hierarchy of Needs\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Ben Furber, Developer at thoughtbot London, presents a panel discussion around striving for professional fulfillment, as individuals, managers, and organizations.
\n\nThe panelists touch on bringing your authentic self to work, finding organizations with value alignment, an environment where you're able to make mistakes, 'process' vs trust, rethinking retros, giving appreciative feedback, and honest conversations.
\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:
\nPricingWire: Monetization & Pricing Strategy for Software & Technology Innovators
Links & Show Notes
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Ben Furber, Developer at thoughtbot London, presents a panel discussion around striving for professional fulfillment, as individuals, managers, and organizations.","date_published":"2019-04-23T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/8f4060aa-87c8-463f-bfc4-1b98645db941.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":68433226,"duration_in_seconds":4273}]},{"id":"1612e65d-9518-4539-9825-ee0cfeb2dc8a","title":"316: A Completely Orthogonal Skillset (Lara Hogan)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/316","content_text":"Lara Hogan, co-founder of Wherewithall, discusses finding her ideal job coaching and mentoring, evaluating for management alignment, what makes for a strong manager, the value of role-play, constructive feedback, and her upcoming book, Resilient Management.\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:\nPricingWire: Monetization & Pricing Strategy for Software & Technology Innovators\n\nLinks & Show Notes\n\n\nWherewithall\nNot Lack of Ability but More Choice: Individual and Gender Differences in Choice of Careers in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics\n\"On Being A Senior Engineer\"- John Allspaw\nResilient Management\nVoltron\nLara on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Lara Hogan, co-founder of Wherewithall, discusses finding her ideal job coaching and mentoring, evaluating for management alignment, what makes for a strong manager, the value of role-play, constructive feedback, and her upcoming book, Resilient Management.
\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:
\nPricingWire: Monetization & Pricing Strategy for Software & Technology Innovators
Links & Show Notes
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Lara Hogan, co-founder of Wherewithall, discusses finding her ideal job coaching and mentoring, evaluating for management alignment, what makes for a strong manager, the value of role-play, constructive feedback, and her upcoming book, \"Resilient Management\".","date_published":"2019-04-15T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/8c418a49-bb00-48da-8491-0d76a8f395e1.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":39136859,"duration_in_seconds":2442}]},{"id":"16e32bcd-8f99-43f4-843b-322b6a7c8bc1","title":"315: I'm Not a CPA, I Just Play One On Podcasts (Scott Orn)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/315","content_text":"Scott Orn, COO of Kruze Consulting, talks about podcasting, early stage pain-points, favorite tools, the trade-offs of remote work, and last minute tax-day advice for startups.\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:\nPricingWire: Monetization & Pricing Strategy for Software & Technology Innovators\n\nLinks & Show Notes\n\n\nKruze Consulting\nScott on Giant Robots #43\nFounders & Friends Podcast\nBen's Friends\nthoughtbot Playbook\nCome work from our San Francisco Office!\nKruze Startup Tax Returns\nScott on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Scott Orn, COO of Kruze Consulting, talks about podcasting, early stage pain-points, favorite tools, the trade-offs of remote work, and last minute tax-day advice for startups.
\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:
\nPricingWire: Monetization & Pricing Strategy for Software & Technology Innovators
Links & Show Notes
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Scott Orn, COO of Kruze Consulting, talks about podcasting, early stage pain-points, favorite tools, the trade-offs of remote work, and last minute tax-day advice for startups.","date_published":"2019-04-08T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/3b63829a-1649-4289-b846-32edac816b4e.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":41023109,"duration_in_seconds":2560}]},{"id":"fe948c81-5d08-41ca-bc6e-5fc813c77f2e","title":"314: Streamlined and Thoughtful (Chelsea Moore)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/314","content_text":"Chelsea Moore, co-founder & CEO of BoxFox, discusses quickly going from idea to launch while doing everything from design to fulfillment in-house, their approach to growth, learning to say 'no', letting branding & social media evolve from itself, and reinforcing the human side of e-commerce.\n\n\nBOXFOX\nChelsea on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chelsea Moore, co-founder & CEO of BoxFox, discusses quickly going from idea to launch while doing everything from design to fulfillment in-house, their approach to growth, learning to say 'no', letting branding & social media evolve from itself, and reinforcing the human side of e-commerce.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chelsea Moore, co-founder & CEO of BoxFox, discusses quickly going from idea to launch while doing everything from design to fulfillment in-house, their approach to growth, learning to say 'no', letting branding & social media evolve from itself, and reinforcing the human side of e-commerce.","date_published":"2019-04-01T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/426c9b56-4cc2-46fa-8d85-d8079692207a.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":35303755,"duration_in_seconds":2203}]},{"id":"57e08f71-8ce5-411a-a232-70928f561b23","title":"313: I Just Want to Get There (Art Papas)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/313","content_text":"Art Papas, CEO of Bullhorn, discusses the business of temporary staffing, the danger of doing a marketing push before finding product market fit, focusing early on culture, adjusting to his role as CEO, communication techniques for company-wide messaging, and having enthusiasm for the future.\n\n\nBullhorn\nWinning- Jack Welch\nThe Innovator's Dilemma- Clayton Christensen\nArt on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Art Papas, CEO of Bullhorn, discusses the business of temporary staffing, the danger of doing a marketing push before finding product market fit, focusing early on culture, adjusting to his role as CEO, communication techniques for company-wide messaging, and having enthusiasm for the future.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Art Papas, CEO of Bullhorn, discusses the business of temporary staffing, the danger of doing a marketing push before finding product market fit, focusing early on culture, adjusting to his role as CEO, communication techniques for company-wide messaging, and having enthusiasm for the future.","date_published":"2019-03-25T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/99ed30c9-1b8f-49a5-a847-78795fadaa4b.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":29851477,"duration_in_seconds":1862}]},{"id":"2afc812b-cb65-4cf3-bfd8-77c2793811ab","title":"312: Seeking Strengths (Gareth Burrowes)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/312","content_text":"Gareth Burrowes, Co-Founder & Head of Product and Marketing at The Tech Connection, discusses employment screening focused on candidate strengths, removing unconscious bias from the hiring flow, and the importance of diversity at every level of a company.\n\n\nThe Tech Connection\nGareth on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Gareth Burrowes, Co-Founder & Head of Product and Marketing at The Tech Connection, discusses employment screening focused on candidate strengths, removing unconscious bias from the hiring flow, and the importance of diversity at every level of a company.
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Gareth Burrowes, Co-Founder & Head of Product and Marketing at The Tech Connection, discusses employment screening focused on candidate strengths, removing unconscious bias from the hiring flow, and the importance of diversity at every level of a company.","date_published":"2019-03-18T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/de2285db-501c-4f52-978b-2f3a0bac4f56.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":37366802,"duration_in_seconds":2332}]},{"id":"2ec0d2e8-ff44-4e93-b7a8-ad0b884a6ddd","title":"311: Serving Serverless (Erica Windisch)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/311","content_text":"Erica Windisch, CTO and co-founder of IOpipe, discusses serverless architecture and how it can provide a clearer user-interaction story, the state of automatic code generation, and her experience in Techstars.\n\n\nIOpipe\nTechstars NYC 2016\nAn introduction to Wardley (Value Chain) Mapping\nIOpipe Community on Slack\nErica on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Erica Windisch, CTO and co-founder of IOpipe, discusses serverless architecture and how it can provide a clearer user-interaction story, the state of automatic code generation, and her experience in Techstars.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Erica Windisch, CTO and co-founder of IOpipe, discusses serverless architecture and how it can provide a clearer user-interaction story, the state of automatic code generation, and her experience in Techstars.","date_published":"2019-03-11T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/068e1e28-e639-461e-9cf6-35ae4328350b.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":37555301,"duration_in_seconds":2343}]},{"id":"b2aa39d2-75f8-48f9-b3b7-83fe8de977b2","title":"310: Have a Slide For That (Alec Stern)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/310","content_text":"Alec Stern, startup founder, entrepreneur, mentor, investor, and advisor, discusses founding Constant Contact, the early days of SaaS, the importance and utilization of 'channels', and pursuing customer feedback.\n\n\nConstant Contact\nPoint2Point Global\nAlec on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Alec Stern, startup founder, entrepreneur, mentor, investor, and advisor, discusses founding Constant Contact, the early days of SaaS, the importance and utilization of 'channels', and pursuing customer feedback.
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Alec Stern, startup founder, entrepreneur, mentor, investor, and advisor, discusses founding Constant Contact, the early days of SaaS, the importance and utilization of 'channels', and pursuing customer feedback.","date_published":"2019-03-04T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/5cb5ffb0-2272-46df-8054-ec2242608208.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":40874733,"duration_in_seconds":2551}]},{"id":"cfe3c1f4-01df-48de-8d8b-5e85b5939b3a","title":"309: Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast (Jamie Howard)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/309","content_text":"Jamie Howard, Director of Engineering at TransLoc, discusses hiring, solutions-driven engineering, leadership in the military vs the private sector, and Agile methodology.\n\n\nTransLoc\nThe Ride\nSpotify Engineering Culture\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Jamie Howard, Director of Engineering at TransLoc, discusses hiring, solutions-driven engineering, leadership in the military vs the private sector, and Agile methodology.
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Jamie Howard, Director of Engineering at TransLoc, discusses hiring, solutions-driven engineering, leadership in the military vs the private sector, and Agile methodology.","date_published":"2019-02-25T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/2c3722c3-aa82-4318-86d5-03ab9d02887d.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":26826289,"duration_in_seconds":1673}]},{"id":"f3512b26-135c-4371-bc54-63cd557782c1","title":"308: Technology is Everywhere (Siobhan Green)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/308","content_text":"Siobhan Green, co-founder & CEO of Sonjara, discusses finding good tech solutions for organizations in the social-benefit space and developing countries, merging her passions for tech and international development, GDPR, and the ethics and security of various technological solutions.\n\n\nSonjara\nICT4D\nThe Ethics of Data Workshop\nSiobhan on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Siobhan Green, co-founder & CEO of Sonjara, discusses finding good tech solutions for organizations in the social-benefit space and developing countries, merging her passions for tech and international development, GDPR, and the ethics and security of various technological solutions.
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Siobhan Green, co-founder & CEO of Sonjara, discusses finding good tech solutions for organizations in the social-benefit space and developing countries, merging her passions for tech and international development, GDPR, and the ethics and security of various technological solutions.","date_published":"2019-02-18T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/b2ac8208-5844-490c-b2ea-7fdba08d9ff5.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":34054475,"duration_in_seconds":2125}]},{"id":"08407036-61c7-4647-822f-8b391c421aad","title":"307: Win in the Long Term (Mike McDerment)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/307","content_text":"Mike McDerment, co-founder and CEO of FreshBooks, discusses reimagining the platform with a system-wide A-B test, experiences with scaling, the value of customer service, and the art/science of change.\n\n\nFreshBooks\nMike on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Mike McDerment, co-founder and CEO of FreshBooks, discusses reimagining the platform with a system-wide A-B test, experiences with scaling, the value of customer service, and the art/science of change.
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Mike McDerment, co-founder and CEO of FreshBooks, discusses reimagining the platform with a system-wide A-B test, experiences with scaling, the value of customer service, and the art/science of change.","date_published":"2019-02-11T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/d8a1fc29-783d-48d2-8473-3b529b1583d7.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":33333496,"duration_in_seconds":2080}]},{"id":"00fe5f15-0f5a-4a3a-ae40-0a4a17572e4a","title":"306: 306: Solving a Specific Problem (Ellen Chisa)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/306","content_text":"Ellen Chisa, CEO and cofounder of Dark, discusses building a complete programming platform from scratch, the benefits of a private beta, and making programming more accessible.\n\n\nDark\nPhilip2\nEllen on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Ellen Chisa, CEO and cofounder of Dark, discusses building a complete programming platform from scratch, the benefits of a private beta, and making programming more accessible.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Ellen Chisa, CEO and cofounder of Dark, discusses building a complete programming platform from scratch, the benefits of a private beta, and making programming more accessible.","date_published":"2019-02-04T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/d4268f2c-dc72-48f6-bf75-886e4bf685fa.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":25743357,"duration_in_seconds":1605}]},{"id":"72f28ffa-321d-4d94-af4e-f40aa785d737","title":"305: You're Never Done (Ben McRedmond)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/305","content_text":"Ben McRedmond, CEO of Consider, discusses his time as Senior Director of Growth at Intercom, teases his plans for fixing email, and discusses the importance & difficulty of product validation.\n\n\nConsider\nBen on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Ben McRedmond, CEO of Consider, discusses his time as Senior Director of Growth at Intercom, teases his plans for fixing email, and discusses the importance & difficulty of product validation.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Ben McRedmond, CEO of Consider, discusses his time as Senior Director of Growth at Intercom, teases his plans for fixing email, and discusses the importance & difficulty of product validation.","date_published":"2019-01-28T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/df2d4665-cd28-4721-a948-cb28819fff29.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":27711526,"duration_in_seconds":1728}]},{"id":"3c519ddf-77d1-4cde-ac8f-e8aeab117d4e","title":"304: Intentional Soul-Searching (Natalie Nagele)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/304","content_text":"Natalie Nagele, Co-founder and CEO of Wildbit, discusses product updates, operating with more meaning and purpose, user research, bootstrap vs VC funding, and experiments in productivity (like a 4-day work week, turning off Slack, and strategies for remote work).\n\n\nWildbit\nNatalie on Giant Robots Ep #66\nConveyor\nDeep Work- Cal Newport\nNatalie on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Natalie Nagele, Co-founder and CEO of Wildbit, discusses product updates, operating with more meaning and purpose, user research, bootstrap vs VC funding, and experiments in productivity (like a 4-day work week, turning off Slack, and strategies for remote work).
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Natalie Nagele, Co-founder and CEO of Wildbit, discusses product updates, operating with more meaning and purpose, user research, bootstrap vs VC funding, and experiments in productivity (like a 4-day work week, turning off Slack, and strategies for remote work).","date_published":"2019-01-21T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/3d9b3f6c-d4c1-457e-8c15-c02f8355bb29.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":44301581,"duration_in_seconds":2765}]},{"id":"bd240745-9b41-4224-9322-7135ef5be9d7","title":"303: Building Something Special (Margaret McKenna)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/303","content_text":"Margaret McKenna, Software Engineer at Devoted Health, discusses joining a team based on their mission, building systems from scratch, and evolution on a new, rapidly growing team.\n\n\nDevoted Health\nDJ Patil on Giant Robots\nMargaret on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Margaret McKenna, Software Engineer at Devoted Health, discusses joining a team based on their mission, building systems from scratch, and evolution on a new, rapidly growing team.
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Margaret McKenna, Software Engineer at Devoted Health, discusses joining a team based on their mission, building systems from scratch, and evolution on a new, rapidly growing team.","date_published":"2019-01-14T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/04493153-252c-40ba-9ae9-262a3be122aa.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":27456153,"duration_in_seconds":1712}]},{"id":"eb7259aa-c3a4-49f5-8ff2-7483fb4576d2","title":"302: What Stage Are We In? (Sam Clemens)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/302","content_text":"Sam Clemens, Partner at Accomplice VC, discusses utilizing his product experience to nurture new companies, advice for where businesses should focus in various stages of growth, what should really be in an MVP, and his feelings around leaving a company as it's founder.\n\n\nAccomplice VC\nSam on LinkedIn\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Sam Clemens, Partner at Accomplice VC, discusses utilizing his product experience to nurture new companies, advice for where businesses should focus in various stages of growth, what should really be in an MVP, and his feelings around leaving a company as it's founder.
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Sam Clemens, Partner at Accomplice VC, discusses utilizing his product experience to nurture new companies, advice for where businesses should focus in various stages of growth, what should really be in an MVP, and his feelings around leaving a company as it's founder.","date_published":"2019-01-07T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/f2026e07-90b1-44be-b054-3e27923386bd.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":39263083,"duration_in_seconds":2450}]},{"id":"746f08ad-b88b-4a5d-91ed-94c192d55bcd","title":"301: Projection & Prediction (Aatish Salvi)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/301","content_text":"Aatish Salvi, CTO of Teikametrics, discusses building a service for 3rd party Amazon sellers using data science, being wary of pre-mature optimization, integrating data engineering research into the team, and working with Amazon as both a partner and a competitor.\n\n\nTeikametrics\nAatish on LinkedIn\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!Special Guest: Teikametrics.","content_html":"Aatish Salvi, CTO of Teikametrics, discusses building a service for 3rd party Amazon sellers using data science, being wary of pre-mature optimization, integrating data engineering research into the team, and working with Amazon as both a partner and a competitor.
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: Teikametrics.
","summary":"Aatish Salvi, CTO of Teikametrics, discusses building a service for 3rd party Amazon sellers using data science, being wary of pre-mature optimization, integrating data engineering research into the team, and working with Amazon as both a partner and a competitor.","date_published":"2018-12-10T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/bd97af9b-01db-4008-aec7-a05228e78423.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":38451406,"duration_in_seconds":2399}]},{"id":"38b016e1-4b77-44ce-9c60-a3549cc90a48","title":"300: More Useable Information (Jennifer Lum)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/300","content_text":"Jennifer Lum, COO and co-founder of Forge.ai, discusses building a company and platform that transforms unstructured information into machine-readable data in real-time, avoiding biases in data collection, and evolving & defining company values as one's team grows.\n\n\nForge\nJennifer on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Jennifer Lum, COO and co-founder of Forge.ai, discusses building a company and platform that transforms unstructured information into machine-readable data in real-time, avoiding biases in data collection, and evolving & defining company values as one's team grows.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Jennifer Lum, COO and co-founder of Forge.ai, discusses building a company and platform that transforms unstructured information into machine-readable data in real-time, avoiding biases in data collection, and evolving & defining company values as one's team grows.","date_published":"2018-12-03T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/89c55a31-d468-4962-8ca8-fe1eeaa6cd13.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":29764542,"duration_in_seconds":1856}]},{"id":"45e698f4-5430-4358-96fe-e3f31f8ab58b","title":"299: High-Touch (Millie Blackwell)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/299","content_text":"Millie Blackwell, President & Co-founder of Showcase Workshop, discusses differences in business culture between California and New Zealand, pursuing tablets as a business tool early in the lifespan of the iPad, experimenting with SaaS pricing, and providing value to both enterprise buyers and end-users.\n\n\nShowcase Workshop\nShowcase Forest Releaf Fund\nMillie on LinkedIn\n","content_html":"Millie Blackwell, President & Co-founder of Showcase Workshop, discusses differences in business culture between California and New Zealand, pursuing tablets as a business tool early in the lifespan of the iPad, experimenting with SaaS pricing, and providing value to both enterprise buyers and end-users.
\n\n","summary":"Millie Blackwell, President & Co-founder of Showcase Workshop, discusses differences in business culture between California and New Zealand, pursuing tablets as a business tool early in the lifespan of the iPad, experimenting with SaaS pricing, and providing value to both enterprise buyers and end-users.","date_published":"2018-11-26T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/93f69f04-6c51-4dc7-b59d-274f8e2588c1.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":35297904,"duration_in_seconds":2202}]},{"id":"73467b1c-804f-42ab-b6ab-65ac42eb3ba8","title":"298: Doing Right is Scalable (DJ Patil)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/298","content_text":"DJ Patil, Head of Technology at Devoted Health, discusses his time as the U.S. Chief Data Scientist, scaling healthcare to meet modern data demands, and the process of architecting a health care company.\n\n\nDevoted Health\nU.S. Government’s open data\nThe Fifth Risk- Michael Lewis\n\"Do Things That Don't Scale\"\nDJ on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"DJ Patil, Head of Technology at Devoted Health, discusses his time as the U.S. Chief Data Scientist, scaling healthcare to meet modern data demands, and the process of architecting a health care company.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"DJ Patil, Head of Technology at Devoted Health, discusses his time as the U.S. Chief Data Scientist, scaling healthcare to meet modern data demands, and the process of architecting a health care company.","date_published":"2018-11-15T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/863347b9-acb9-4b80-b0c8-526ba201fda1.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":45339374,"duration_in_seconds":2830}]},{"id":"540c1ef1-e8dc-45eb-870b-5211730272e3","title":"297: Go Deep (David Kloba & Rob Meinhardt)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/297","content_text":"David Kloba & Rob Meinhardt, Co-Founders of Furious Collective, discuss the mindset and methodology of their venture production studio, recount their adventures over the past year of growing FormKeep after having acquired it from thoughtbot, and offer advice to founders preparing to sell their product or company.\n\n\nFurious Collective\nFormKeep\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"David Kloba & Rob Meinhardt, Co-Founders of Furious Collective, discuss the mindset and methodology of their venture production studio, recount their adventures over the past year of growing FormKeep after having acquired it from thoughtbot, and offer advice to founders preparing to sell their product or company.
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"David Kloba & Rob Meinhardt, Co-Founders of Furious Collective, discuss the mindset and methodology of their venture production studio, recount their adventures over the past year of growing FormKeep after having acquired it from thoughtbot, and offer advice to founders preparing to sell their product or company.","date_published":"2018-11-06T12:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/d890ee09-5349-4fc7-8791-23f3860a9e00.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":47592174,"duration_in_seconds":2971}]},{"id":"41ff8190-ee8e-4ce1-9f55-73bce6748235","title":"296: Stay Close to Your Users (Andrew Bialecki)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/296","content_text":"Andrew Bialecki, CEO of Klaviyo, discusses building systems to process and get insight from business' data, scaling personality and humanity to mass communication, and translating customer feedback into concrete product improvement. Plus, the debut of 'Ask thoughtbot'!\n\n\nKlaviyo\nDavid Cancel on Giant Robots\nThe Innovators- Walter Isaacson\nAndrew on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Andrew Bialecki, CEO of Klaviyo, discusses building systems to process and get insight from business' data, scaling personality and humanity to mass communication, and translating customer feedback into concrete product improvement. Plus, the debut of 'Ask thoughtbot'!
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Andrew Bialecki, CEO of Klaviyo, discusses building systems to process and get insight from business' data, scaling personality and humanity to mass communication, and translating customer feedback into concrete product improvement. Plus, the debut of 'Ask thoughtbot'!","date_published":"2018-10-30T14:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/259d27cc-9843-4e71-b253-6bc0263d33b8.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":50558199,"duration_in_seconds":3156}]},{"id":"8a39677f-4390-44fd-afe7-f35b8c7d5d32","title":"295: Follow Your Passion (Jonathan Kim)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/295","content_text":"Jonathan Kim, CEO of Appcues, discusses building better onboarding and personalization to apps, starting a company as a solo founder, lessons learned from his time in journalism, and core culture values.\n\n\nAppcues\nDavid Cancel on Giant Robots\nJonathan on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Jonathan Kim, CEO of Appcues, discusses building better onboarding and personalization to apps, starting a company as a solo founder, lessons learned from his time in journalism, and core culture values.
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Jonathan Kim, CEO of Appcues, discusses building better onboarding and personalization to apps, starting a company as a solo founder, lessons learned from his time in journalism, and core culture values.","date_published":"2018-10-24T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/8afc48d1-d71d-4a8f-b9f8-bf2b485f5962.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":40074759,"duration_in_seconds":2501}]},{"id":"9750d64c-000d-4d6c-b786-9c0b6ba93536","title":"294: From a Place of Sharing (Chris Toomey)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/294","content_text":"In this special crossover episode, Chad is joined by Chris Toomey, Development Director at thoughtbot and host of The Bike Shed podcast, to discuss the content, history, and the process of making Upcase, thoughtbot's online learning platform, FREE.\n\n\nThe Bike Shed\nUpcase\nTest Driven Rails\nMastering Git\nFundamentals of TDD\nSOA on The Bike Shed\nOnramp to Vim\nthoughtbot Purpose Statement\nChris on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"In this special crossover episode, Chad is joined by Chris Toomey, Development Director at thoughtbot and host of The Bike Shed podcast, to discuss the content, history, and the process of making Upcase, thoughtbot's online learning platform, FREE.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"In this special crossover episode, Chad is joined by Chris Toomey, Development Director at thoughtbot and host of The Bike Shed podcast, to discuss the content, history, and the process of making Upcase, thoughtbot's online learning platform, FREE.","date_published":"2018-10-18T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/f562cc9b-45d6-4d69-966d-77cce3d54bc7.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":28984630,"duration_in_seconds":1808}]},{"id":"ed006b9f-7624-4146-bfc8-7a03af78df7c","title":"293: Advertising as a Service (Sandra Richter)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/293","content_text":"Sandra Richter, Co-founder and CEO of Soofa, talks about redefining the infrastructure of out of home advertising, purpose vs business motivation, and learning from setbacks.\n\n\nSoofa\nMIT Media Lab\nSoofa Sign\nSoofa Talk\nSandra on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Sandra Richter, Co-founder and CEO of Soofa, talks about redefining the infrastructure of out of home advertising, purpose vs business motivation, and learning from setbacks.
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Sandra Richter, Co-founder and CEO of Soofa, talks about redefining the infrastructure of out of home advertising, purpose vs business motivation, and learning from setbacks.","date_published":"2018-10-10T12:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/f5495dd5-5c77-4d16-b035-b2a26ab60f62.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":42674048,"duration_in_seconds":2663}]},{"id":"15184842-3d75-4742-906c-940183b0adc1","title":"292: MVP-ing the Sales Process (Lindsey Christensen)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/292","content_text":"Lindsey Christensen, VP of Marketing at thoughtbot, discusses shaping thoughtbot's marketing strategy, team, and future.\n\n\nPurpose-built Resource Center\nThe Bike Shed Podcast\nLindsey on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Lindsey Christensen, VP of Marketing at thoughtbot, discusses shaping thoughtbot's marketing strategy, team, and future.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Lindsey Christensen, VP of Marketing at thoughtbot, discusses shaping thoughtbot's marketing strategy, team, and future.","date_published":"2018-10-02T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/a54da8cc-4136-4c79-8134-fc2b925f3b46.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":45506557,"duration_in_seconds":2840}]},{"id":"e25be20c-ea6d-4b0b-a956-35165b6ae863","title":"291: Intrapreneurial Streak (Heena Purohit)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/291","content_text":"Heena Purohit, Product Manager of IBM Watson IoT, discusses how they are tailoring custom solutions with IoT data, building business acumen for better product managing, and iterating at scale.\n\n\nIBM Watson IoT\nStryker Vehicle\nIntrapreneurship\nTrusted AI\nHeena on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Heena Purohit, Product Manager of IBM Watson IoT, discusses how they are tailoring custom solutions with IoT data, building business acumen for better product managing, and iterating at scale.
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Heena Purohit, Product Manager of IBM Watson IoT, discusses how they are tailoring custom solutions with IoT data, building business acumen for better product managing, and iterating at scale.","date_published":"2018-09-25T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/b6024e93-500b-49dd-aeff-719fb22c572c.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":40460536,"duration_in_seconds":2525}]},{"id":"2328057f-5b06-46b7-b463-92679b799f13","title":"290: Usage Native (Mike Trotzke)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/290","content_text":"Mike Trotzke, CEO of Cheddar, talks about the future of billing models, when is the right time to do seed investing, and finding your value pricing metric.\n\n\nCheddar\nPricing Bootcamp\n\"SaaS Pricing: Strategies, Frameworks & Lessons Learned\"- Chad Pytel\nBuilding Splitfit\nMike on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Mike Trotzke, CEO of Cheddar, talks about the future of billing models, when is the right time to do seed investing, and finding your value pricing metric.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Mike Trotzke, CEO of Cheddar, talks about the future of billing models, when is the right time to do seed investing, and finding your value pricing metric.","date_published":"2018-09-11T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/2a1664be-89d1-41b2-93c6-92b548da4767.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":34937140,"duration_in_seconds":2180}]},{"id":"b9b78a79-3f9c-49ab-b7f3-1556acf7de26","title":"289: Capture Community Early (Jameson Toole)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/289","content_text":"Jameson Toole, founder of Fritz, discusses AI & Machine Learning on mobile, the process & ideology of launching a product from scratch, and the business of developer tools.\n\n\nFritz\nCore ML\nTensorFlow\nInstaSaber\nHeartbeat\nJameson on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Jameson Toole, founder of Fritz, discusses AI & Machine Learning on mobile, the process & ideology of launching a product from scratch, and the business of developer tools.
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Jameson Toole, founder of Fritz, discusses AI & Machine Learning on mobile, the process & ideology of launching a product from scratch, and the business of developer tools.","date_published":"2018-09-03T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/9e1e89a9-3f33-450b-887f-20eb4766897f.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":34271396,"duration_in_seconds":2138}]},{"id":"df94c059-21c9-4ebc-96f5-e29eba66eda2","title":"288: Pursuing Customer Delight (Yoav Shapira)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/288","content_text":"Yoav Shapira, an Engineering Manager at Facebook with a long history in Boston startups, discusses early technology choices for startups, balancing product needs/wants with technical limitations, the role of Capital-D 'Design', and common startup advice.\n\n\nCarGurus\nHubSpot\nHappier\nJana\nDavid Cancel on Giant Robots\nthoughtbot Playbook\nInternet Access a Basic Human Right\nBuilding a Crucial Conversations Culture at Facebook\nManaging Unconscious Bias\nYoav on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Yoav Shapira, an Engineering Manager at Facebook with a long history in Boston startups, discusses early technology choices for startups, balancing product needs/wants with technical limitations, the role of Capital-D 'Design', and common startup advice.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Yoav Shapira, an Engineering Manager at Facebook with a long history in Boston startups, discusses early technology choices for startups, balancing product needs/wants with technical limitations, the role of Capital-D 'Design', and common startup advice.","date_published":"2018-08-27T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/54b10063-7fb1-420d-8c94-40fe595e2ad1.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":49423253,"duration_in_seconds":3085}]},{"id":"dcfe892a-1229-43df-b122-baab023685df","title":"287: Disruptive, Exponentially-Innovative, 10x Videos (Sarah Cooper)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/287","content_text":"Sarah Cooper, comedian, speaker, and author of 100 Tricks to Appear Smart in Meetings, joins Chad to discuss management burnout, the creative process, and her latest book.\n\n\n100 Tricks to Appear Smart in Meetings\nThe Cooper Review\n\"10 Tricks to Appear Smart in Meetings\"\nThe Oatmeal\nHow to be Successful Without Hurting Men's Feelings\n\"9 Non-Threatening Leadership Strategies for Women\"\nThe Bubble: Crushing It\nSarah Cooper\nMcSweeney's\nSarah on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Sarah Cooper, comedian, speaker, and author of 100 Tricks to Appear Smart in Meetings, joins Chad to discuss management burnout, the creative process, and her latest book.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Sarah Cooper, comedian, speaker, and author of \"100 Tricks to Appear Smart in Meetings\", joins Chad to discuss management burnout, the creative process, and her latest book.","date_published":"2018-08-20T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/151943d9-cfb7-4531-926a-536e79aa15ee.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":29158083,"duration_in_seconds":1819}]},{"id":"592b2442-eed8-4e29-8287-2e3c6844580f","title":"286: A Million Boxes at a Time (Stephan Ango)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/286","content_text":"Stephan Ango, Co-founder and Head of Product at Lumi, discusses merging creative and scientific mindsets in industrial design, the logistics of packaging, developing custom solutions by slowly replacing 3rd party tools, and building your ideal culture while balancing operational needs.\n\n\nLumi\nInkodye\nPureScript\nPureScript and Haskell at Lumi\nWell Made Podcast\nShipping Things\n\"1,000 True Fans\"- Kevin Kelly\nStephan on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Stephan Ango, Co-founder and Head of Product at Lumi, discusses merging creative and scientific mindsets in industrial design, the logistics of packaging, developing custom solutions by slowly replacing 3rd party tools, and building your ideal culture while balancing operational needs.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Stephan Ango, Co-founder and Head of Product at Lumi, discusses merging creative and scientific mindsets in industrial design, the logistics of packaging, developing custom solutions by slowly replacing 3rd party tools, and building your ideal culture while balancing operational needs.","date_published":"2018-08-14T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/d1ccd8ba-3b79-441e-bb6c-00302ee39391.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":45776977,"duration_in_seconds":2857}]},{"id":"666011e1-d36b-4e6e-ad3b-0f967f8fbd1c","title":"285: Deep Counting (Jerry Talton)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/285","content_text":"Jerry Talton, leader of the Machine-Learning Services team at Slack, talks about picking up after a failed startup, design-thinking for machine learning, and important lessons from managing.\n\n\nSlack\n\"Doggfooding\"\nStarSpace\nGeneral Management Course\nThe No Asshole Rule- Robert Sutton\nCreativity, Inc.- Ed Catmull\nWest Wing- Down in a Hole\nGiant Robots ep 256- Stay Hungry, Stay Learning\n'A Few Useful Things to Know About Machine Learning'- Pedro Domingos\n'Naive Bayes Models for Probability Estimation'- Lowd & Domingos\nJerry on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Jerry Talton, leader of the Machine-Learning Services team at Slack, talks about picking up after a failed startup, design-thinking for machine learning, and important lessons from managing.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Jerry Talton, leader of the Machine-Learning Services team at Slack, talks about picking up after a failed startup, design-thinking for machine learning, and important lessons from managing.","date_published":"2018-08-06T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/3e483292-e8b4-468e-895d-bc4b903e31bc.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":46011870,"duration_in_seconds":2872}]},{"id":"7dda9e54-2f6c-4280-a741-db9b29d7819b","title":"284: Bringing Vision to Robots (Clara Vu)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/284","content_text":"Clara Vu, co-founder & VP of Engineering of Veo Robotics, shares her story getting into the world of robotics, designing perception systems for industrial robots, and 'First-Principles Thinking' in all aspects of business.\n\n\nVeo Robotics\nT-Shaped Skills\nTime of Flight Cameras\nClara on LinkedIn\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Clara Vu, co-founder & VP of Engineering of Veo Robotics, shares her story getting into the world of robotics, designing perception systems for industrial robots, and 'First-Principles Thinking' in all aspects of business.
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Clara Vu, co-founder & VP of Engineering of Veo Robotics, shares her story getting into the world of robotics, designing perception systems for industrial robots, and 'First-Principles Thinking' in all aspects of business.","date_published":"2018-07-23T14:30:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/2b8ca9df-6d53-41b4-ade9-0415b6c18ac1.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":39884170,"duration_in_seconds":2489}]},{"id":"c86c81b3-d62f-4b2a-afab-258e3ec8532f","title":"283: Overcoming Awkward Data (Joe Ferris)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/283","content_text":"Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot, joins Chad to discuss Data Engineering, what it is, when you need it, and some of the challenges thoughtbot has faced while using it.\n\n\nMachine Learning on Giant Robots\nJoe on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot, joins Chad to discuss Data Engineering, what it is, when you need it, and some of the challenges thoughtbot has faced while using it.
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot, joins Chad to discuss Data Engineering, what it is, when you need it, and some of the challenges thoughtbot has faced while using it.","date_published":"2018-07-16T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/63cef1c2-ddff-41a7-a4f5-bde532439d10.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":39643426,"duration_in_seconds":2474}]},{"id":"fab9b6ed-ad65-4b81-8a9e-f3fe937987bb","title":"282: Robot as a Platform (Tim Enwall)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/282","content_text":"Tim Enwall, CEO of Misty Robotics, discusses designing, building, and selling a fully autonomous robot for developers.\n\n\nMisty Robotics- Use code GiantRobot for $200 off pre-orders\nSphero\nRobotShop\nCrossing the Chasm- Geoffrey A. Moore\nMisty Series Pics\nLiveWorx Conference\nTim on Medium\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Tim Enwall, CEO of Misty Robotics, discusses designing, building, and selling a fully autonomous robot for developers.
\n\nGiantRobot for $200 off pre-ordersSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Tim Enwall, CEO of Misty Robotics, discusses designing, building, and selling a fully autonomous robot for developers.","date_published":"2018-07-02T11:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/a10bbb9a-57ae-4ef9-98b5-2d588b49b0b2.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":36982279,"duration_in_seconds":2308}]},{"id":"7f1cf9e3-5cab-4fc3-9521-834c6f96512f","title":"281: Reconnecting With Development (Robby Russell)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/281","content_text":"Robby Russell, VP of Engineering & Partner at Planet Argon, discusses considering remote work for an agency, strategies for leading a dev team, defining focus for an agency, and the results of the 2018 Rails Hosting Survey.\n\n\nPlanet Argon\nTraction: Get a Grip on Your Business\nRails Hosting Survey\nRobby on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Robby Russell, VP of Engineering & Partner at Planet Argon, discusses considering remote work for an agency, strategies for leading a dev team, defining focus for an agency, and the results of the 2018 Rails Hosting Survey.
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Robby Russell, VP of Engineering & Partner at Planet Argon, discusses considering remote work for an agency, strategies for leading a dev team, defining focus for an agency, and the results of the 2018 Rails Hosting Survey.","date_published":"2018-06-25T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/809f0114-f457-42ce-924c-64e0ef7de2ab.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":47622267,"duration_in_seconds":2973}]},{"id":"a0776a7d-cf68-4634-a6d0-c6d47a806246","title":"280: Design at the Program Layer (Greg Storey)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/280","content_text":"Greg Storey, founder of Airbag Industries & Executive Director of Design at USAA, discusses the blurring of personal and company identity, helming a budding design group, \"safe agile\", what it means for design to 'have a seat at the table', and sustainable pace within an agency.\n\n\nAirbag Industries\nElectric Pulp\n\"You Are Not Your Job Search\"- Greg Storey\n\"How Design is Changing IT\"- Chad Pytel\nIBM: Enterprise Design Thinking\nForrester: IBM's Design Thinking Study\nSprints & Milestones Podcast\nGreg on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Greg Storey, founder of Airbag Industries & Executive Director of Design at USAA, discusses the blurring of personal and company identity, helming a budding design group, "safe agile", what it means for design to 'have a seat at the table', and sustainable pace within an agency.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Greg Storey, founder of Airbag Industries & Executive Director of Design at USAA, discusses the blurring of personal and company identity, helming a budding design group, \"safe agile\", what it means for design to 'have a seat at the table', and sustainable pace within an agency.","date_published":"2018-06-18T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/bfc0d87b-d338-4b43-bac9-ac5812359adf.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":45483987,"duration_in_seconds":2839}]},{"id":"50a05d51-8999-4fef-911f-4c5db3abd6c4","title":"279: Building a Lifelong Brand (Alex Friedman)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/279","content_text":"Alex Friedman, co-founder of LOLA, discusses overcoming stigma, launching new products, measuring success, and brand values.\n\n\nLOLA\nSex by LOLA\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Alex Friedman, co-founder of LOLA, discusses overcoming stigma, launching new products, measuring success, and brand values.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Alex Friedman, co-founder of LOLA, discusses overcoming stigma, launching new products, measuring success, and brand values.","date_published":"2018-06-11T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/8a9482d7-c84d-442e-929c-f71f264c276d.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":23949476,"duration_in_seconds":1493}]},{"id":"baeb23aa-e563-493e-a34e-310e4ad0e238","title":"278: The 'Lights On' Moment (Sam Moorhouse)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/278","content_text":"Sam Moorhouse, creator of Global Code, discusses the importance of mentorship and how he established a software engineering summer education program in Ghana.\n\n\nGlobal Code\nELiTE\nELiTE in Ghana\nRaspberry Pi\nSam on Twitter\nGlobal Code on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Sam Moorhouse, creator of Global Code, discusses the importance of mentorship and how he established a software engineering summer education program in Ghana.
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Sam Moorhouse, creator of Global Code, discusses the importance of mentorship and how he established a software engineering summer education program in Ghana.","date_published":"2018-06-04T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/a96595e3-6db4-47cb-8e01-0ba1e610e332.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":26997652,"duration_in_seconds":1684}]},{"id":"bee3384a-e2f5-4795-aa8e-56dd0f31b17c","title":"277: How Do We Work Together? (Michael Sheeley)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/277","content_text":"Michael Sheeley, former co-founder of Runkeeper, talks about his struggles with scaling, experimentation with prices, finding ways to connect and work together as a larger society, and innovation in health care.\n\n\nRunkeeper\nMichael on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!Special Guest: Nurse-1-1.","content_html":"Michael Sheeley, former co-founder of Runkeeper, talks about his struggles with scaling, experimentation with prices, finding ways to connect and work together as a larger society, and innovation in health care.
\n\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
Special Guest: Nurse-1-1.
","summary":"Michael Sheeley, former co-founder of Runkeeper, talks about his struggles with scaling, experimentation with prices, finding ways to connect and work together as a larger society, and innovation in health care.","date_published":"2018-05-28T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/a656a461-968e-4aa1-98c1-e7fccdd09870.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":51355896,"duration_in_seconds":3206}]},{"id":"0d6b0f40-bd93-4f4f-9fd5-fbaba313036c","title":"276: Enable and Serve (Chris Heivly)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/276","content_text":"Chris Heivly, author & entrepreneur in residence at Techstars, discusses the early days of MapQuest, Raleigh as a burgeoning tech city, and building up new tech communities.\n\n\nBuild the Fort- Chris Heivly\nTechstars\nThe Innovator's Dilemma- Clayton M. Christensen\nRand McNally\nStartup Communities- Brad Feld\nHeivly.com\nThe Lean Startup- Eric Ries\nChris on Twitter\n\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chris Heivly, author & entrepreneur in residence at Techstars, discusses the early days of MapQuest, Raleigh as a burgeoning tech city, and building up new tech communities.
\n\nSee open positions at thoughtbot!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chris Heivly, author & entrepreneur in residence at Techstars, discusses the early days of MapQuest, Raleigh as a burgeoning tech city, and building up new tech communities.","date_published":"2018-05-22T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/65260560-df77-4b09-ad86-efe413ec047b.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":45682936,"duration_in_seconds":2851}]},{"id":"b1d18e73-0749-4d10-bee5-cee791bf0f39","title":"275: Galvanizing Focus (Paul English)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/275","content_text":"Paul English, co-founder of Lola, discusses what it means to be a good brand, transitioning from a tech foundry to a single-product focus, lessons learned from having launched multiple companies, and his approaches to competition & success.\n\n\nDavid Cancel on Giant Robots\nPaul English\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Paul English, co-founder of Lola, discusses what it means to be a good brand, transitioning from a tech foundry to a single-product focus, lessons learned from having launched multiple companies, and his approaches to competition & success.
\n\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Paul English, co-founder of Lola, discusses what it means to be a good brand, transitioning from a tech foundry to a single-product focus, lessons learned from having launched multiple companies, and his approaches to competition & success.","date_published":"2018-05-14T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/1a949b13-4b44-425d-8efb-99a2681ae923.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":41342848,"duration_in_seconds":2580}]},{"id":"080931d2-b918-4599-8af7-7f68fc9ac61d","title":"274: Providing Value (Ram V. Iyer)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/274","content_text":"Ram V. Iyer, Business Thinker & Professional Business Mentor at The Business Thinking Institute, discusses his internalization of business success/failure, having a 'business thinking' mindset, and distinguishing oneself through the value you can create.\n\n\nBusiness Thinking Institute\nBusiness Thinking- My Why\nBusiness Thinking Radio\n'Silent Killers' Quiz\nRam on LinkedIn\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Ram V. Iyer, Business Thinker & Professional Business Mentor at The Business Thinking Institute, discusses his internalization of business success/failure, having a 'business thinking' mindset, and distinguishing oneself through the value you can create.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Ram V. Iyer, Business Thinker & Professional Business Mentor at The Business Thinking Institute, discusses his internalization of business success/failure, having a 'business thinking' mindset, and distinguishing oneself through the value you can create.","date_published":"2018-05-08T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/11324e97-3987-4f4b-a626-f49959908f2a.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":35758495,"duration_in_seconds":2231}]},{"id":"bbe980f1-409e-4a3a-86f4-3c9014856a52","title":"273: Showcase Your Value (Nilan Peiris)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/273","content_text":"Nilan Peiris, VP of Growth at TransferWise, discusses growth sources, handling failure, studying user evangelism, launching in a new market, and scaling globally.\n\n\nTransferWise\nNilan on Twitter\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Nilan Peiris, VP of Growth at TransferWise, discusses growth sources, handling failure, studying user evangelism, launching in a new market, and scaling globally.
\n\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Nilan Peiris, VP of Growth at TransferWise, discusses growth sources, handling failure, studying user evangelism, launching in a new market, and scaling globally.","date_published":"2018-04-30T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/338c6394-60bc-44bf-90ae-b0e6f5f48576.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":30090550,"duration_in_seconds":1877}]},{"id":"7ca405f6-cbfa-4169-aff9-f128698c6bc5","title":"272: Grown-Up App Development (Dermot Daly)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/272","content_text":"Dermot Daly, founder and CEO of Tapadoo, discusses being a developer early in the iOS ecosystem while differentiating themselves now as it's become a more crowded market-space, building your ideal company, and developing apps for med-tech devices.\n\n\nTapadoo\nxCake\nFinish Big\nSlendertone\nDermot on Twitter\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Dermot Daly, founder and CEO of Tapadoo, discusses being a developer early in the iOS ecosystem while differentiating themselves now as it's become a more crowded market-space, building your ideal company, and developing apps for med-tech devices.
\n\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Dermot Daly, founder and CEO of Tapadoo, discusses being a developer early in the iOS ecosystem while differentiating themselves now as it's become a more crowded market-space, building your ideal company, and developing apps for med-tech devices.","date_published":"2018-04-23T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/316c2ad8-b46e-453b-bbe6-79bdfe2d46f2.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":35038769,"duration_in_seconds":2186}]},{"id":"e34fdd55-f1c7-435e-bc81-712074f8e3c6","title":"271: Being a Good Manager (Camille Fournier)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/271","content_text":"Camille Fournier, author, speaker, and Managing Director at Two Sigma, discusses her path from Director of Infrastructure Engineering to CTO, lessons learned from tech team management, and the importance of defining core-values.\n\n\nTwo Sigma\nRent the Runway\nThe Manager's Path\nDavid Cancel on Giant Robots\nCamille on Twitter\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Camille Fournier, author, speaker, and Managing Director at Two Sigma, discusses her path from Director of Infrastructure Engineering to CTO, lessons learned from tech team management, and the importance of defining core-values.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Camille Fournier, author, speaker, and Managing Director at Two Sigma, discusses her path from Director of Infrastructure Engineering to CTO, lessons learned from tech team management, and the importance of defining core-values.","date_published":"2018-04-17T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/8ce1380e-f827-4134-a024-9c0434512ed8.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":38968839,"duration_in_seconds":2432}]},{"id":"5ef07624-7c8a-42de-a2db-23eeb12fd5c8","title":"270: How's Work Lately? (Jennifer Dary)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/270","content_text":"Jennifer Dary, founder of Plucky, discusses purpose, process, longevity, relationships, and trust by turning the tables and giving Chad a corporate counseling session.\n\n\nPlucky\nHopscotch Design Festival\nMetis\nUpcase\nJoe Torre's Ground Rules for Winners\n1:1 Starter Pack\nJennifer on Twitter\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Jennifer Dary, founder of Plucky, discusses purpose, process, longevity, relationships, and trust by turning the tables and giving Chad a corporate counseling session.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Jennifer Dary, founder of Plucky, discusses purpose, process, longevity, relationships, and trust by turning the tables and giving Chad a corporate counseling session.","date_published":"2018-04-10T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/457f808b-a8da-490f-9401-f9f17a4226ec.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":47004941,"duration_in_seconds":2934}]},{"id":"f18f3618-01d5-4ee0-934c-2bc1256c22a3","title":"269: Human to Human Connection (David Cancel)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/269","content_text":"David Cancel, CEO & Co-founder of Drift, discusses bringing the personal touch back to sales through conversational marketing, validating an idea, competition, and differentiating yourself through communication & marketing.\n\n\nDrift\nTrue Startup Competition\nBrooklyn Boulders\nHYPERGROWTH\nSeeking Wisdom Podcast\nDavid on Twitter\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"David Cancel, CEO & Co-founder of Drift, discusses bringing the personal touch back to sales through conversational marketing, validating an idea, competition, and differentiating yourself through communication & marketing.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"David Cancel, CEO & Co-founder of Drift, discusses bringing the personal touch back to sales through conversational marketing, validating an idea, competition, and differentiating yourself through communication & marketing.","date_published":"2018-04-03T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/bb100cc8-4fd8-4a55-aae7-d29cc097bb92.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":43296807,"duration_in_seconds":2702}]},{"id":"58ed2234-25ce-4881-98cd-96947afa934e","title":"268: Present and Effective (Adam Marchick)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/268","content_text":"Adam Marchick, CEO & co-founder of Alpine AI, discusses pioneering vocal analytics, making a better experience for digital commerce on vocal platforms, and operating in an early stage market.\n\n\nAlpine AI\nAdam on Twitter\n\n\nThank you Alpine AI for providing a transcript of today's episode\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Adam Marchick, CEO & co-founder of Alpine AI, discusses pioneering vocal analytics, making a better experience for digital commerce on vocal platforms, and operating in an early stage market.
\n\nThank you Alpine AI for providing a transcript of today's episode
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Adam Marchick, CEO & co-founder of Alpine AI, discusses pioneering vocal analytics, making a better experience for digital commerce on vocal platforms, and operating in an early stage market.","date_published":"2018-03-27T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/7fce297c-ee20-4dbc-ba1b-fd657694f869.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":32935598,"duration_in_seconds":2055}]},{"id":"aa66212b-94a9-465a-9ba2-55854a7a69d3","title":"267: Familiar With the Market (Sara Tateno)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/267","content_text":"Sara Tateno, founder and CEO of Happity, shares her journey from BBC Radio, to coding bootcamp, to startup founder.\n\n\nHappity\nRadio 1's Essential Mix\nMums in Tech\nMakers Academy\nTrigg Life Mapper\nIgnite Accelerator\nSara on Twitter\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Sara Tateno, founder and CEO of Happity, shares her journey from BBC Radio, to coding bootcamp, to startup founder.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Sara Tateno, founder and CEO of Happity, shares her journey from BBC Radio, to coding bootcamp, to startup founder.","date_published":"2018-03-19T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/1128b9e7-5fc5-41b1-ba18-87c54b32191e.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":29829744,"duration_in_seconds":1861}]},{"id":"f85b627c-d342-474b-a2a9-f8bc27994ffd","title":"266: Destination Driven (Ernesto Moreno)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/266","content_text":"Ernesto Moreno, business coach, entrepreneur, & restaurateur, joins Chad to discuss transforming a restaurant using lean methodology, focusing on your strengths, and finding creativity in running a business.\n\n\nArepas\nLean Startup Methodology\nThe E-Myth Revisited- Michael E. Gerber\nThe ONE Thing- Gary Keller\nArepa & Co.\nErnesto on Twitter\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Ernesto Moreno, business coach, entrepreneur, & restaurateur, joins Chad to discuss transforming a restaurant using lean methodology, focusing on your strengths, and finding creativity in running a business.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Ernesto Moreno, business coach, entrepreneur, & restaurateur, joins Chad to discuss transforming a restaurant using lean methodology, focusing on your strengths, and finding creativity in running a business.","date_published":"2018-03-13T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/e15d0f38-5169-4420-a78c-e5caa965903a.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":34269724,"duration_in_seconds":2138}]},{"id":"b2ef7abb-cb25-4f9a-86bb-522943737867","title":"265: Loosening My Hold (Tracy Osborn)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/265","content_text":"Tracy Osborn, author and the creator of WeddingLovely, joins Chad to talk about juggling projects, redefining your core customer base, the feeling of giving up control when hiring, and publishing via Kickstarter.\n\n\nWeddingLovely\nHello Web App\nThe Startup Curve\nDjango Girls Tutorial\nHello Web App: Intermediate Concepts\nHello Web Design\nthoughtbot Books\nHello Web Books\nNathan Barry on Giant Robots\nLimedaring.com\nTracy on Twitter\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Tracy Osborn, author and the creator of WeddingLovely, joins Chad to talk about juggling projects, redefining your core customer base, the feeling of giving up control when hiring, and publishing via Kickstarter.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Tracy Osborn, author and the creator of WeddingLovely, joins Chad to talk about juggling projects, redefining your core customer base, the feeling of giving up control when hiring, and publishing via Kickstarter. ","date_published":"2018-03-05T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/efdff5bc-d6bc-41d2-8b61-0caecdef068f.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":36623670,"duration_in_seconds":2285}]},{"id":"4507592b-8a31-49e6-a14f-a167f6e50528","title":"264: Having a Realistic Mindset (Allen Pike)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/264","content_text":"Chad discusses reflection & goal planning, the scope of internal projects, and balancing time & team structure for both client & product work with Allen Pike, CEO & co-founder of Steamclock Software.\n\n\nSteamclock Software\nWeddingDJ\nStables and Volatiles\nDunbar's Number\nAllen on Twitter\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chad discusses reflection & goal planning, the scope of internal projects, and balancing time & team structure for both client & product work with Allen Pike, CEO & co-founder of Steamclock Software.
\n\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chad discusses reflection & goal planning, the scope of internal projects, and balancing time & team structure for both client & product work with Allen Pike, CEO & co-founder of Steamclock Software.","date_published":"2018-02-27T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/f10c1b1d-e2e0-4e21-9a34-51ac9d9cb3df.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":39227974,"duration_in_seconds":2448}]},{"id":"ca9e153a-a797-4209-8267-571a490a5fe6","title":"263: The Stuff of Science Fiction (George Brocklehurst)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/263","content_text":"Chad is joined by George Brocklehurst, development director of thoughtbot NYC, to discuss the methodologies, tools, and use cases in working with machine learning.\n\n\nWhat is Machine Learning?- George Brocklehurst\nNamed-Entity Recognition\nStanford Named Entity Recognizer\nPyTorch\nHoptoad (now Airbrake)\nTurning Design Mockups Into Code With Deep Learning- Emil Wallner\nMachine Learning Course on Coursera\nfast.ai\nFundamentals of Machine Learning for Predictive Data Analytics- John D. Kelleher\nNamed Entity Recognition: Downloading Recipes\nKaggle Competitions\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chad is joined by George Brocklehurst, development director of thoughtbot NYC, to discuss the methodologies, tools, and use cases in working with machine learning.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chad is joined by George Brocklehurst, development director of thoughtbot NYC, to discuss the methodologies, tools, and use cases in working with machine learning.","date_published":"2018-02-19T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/b422c0c0-0179-40ae-ae93-a0a2709832bd.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":21911925,"duration_in_seconds":1366}]},{"id":"8c069e44-8fb5-41c3-b54e-db205f37aa7d","title":"262: The Thought Behind the Bot","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/262","content_text":"In 2003, five friends came together to form thoughtbot. In this special episode, we take a look back on the founding of thoughtbot, and it's first years, told from the perspective of the original founders and early partners. From their first meeting in college, to the dramatic first work-experience that led them to create thoughtbot, to the eventual breakup and reformation, we explore the events that led thoughtbot to become the company it is today.\n\n\nMatt Tucker\nCalvin Swaim\nWillie Conrad\nthoughtbot\nWorcester Polytechnic Institute\nDisc\nPino's Pizza\nBuild a Blog Demo\nShotgunflat\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"In 2003, five friends came together to form thoughtbot. In this special episode, we take a look back on the founding of thoughtbot, and it's first years, told from the perspective of the original founders and early partners. From their first meeting in college, to the dramatic first work-experience that led them to create thoughtbot, to the eventual breakup and reformation, we explore the events that led thoughtbot to become the company it is today.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"In 2003, five friends came together to form thoughtbot. In this special episode, we take a look back on the founding of thoughtbot, and it's first years, told from the perspective of the original founders and early partners. From their first meeting in college, to the dramatic first work-experience that led them to create thoughtbot, to the eventual breakup and reformation, we explore the events that led thoughtbot to become the company it is today.","date_published":"2018-02-12T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/8fbccdd3-af25-432f-ae6c-cf9ac81e8fb2.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":54879260,"duration_in_seconds":3426}]},{"id":"c4bebdf5-5464-479a-aba9-443f08083738","title":"261: A Human Future (Pamela Pavliscak)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/261","content_text":"Chad is joined by Pamela Pavliscak, founder of Change Sciences, about human-centered design thinking, and incorporating well-being & ethics as a measure of success.\n\n\nChange Sciences\nValue Sensitive Design\nNudge- Richard H. Thaler\nIEEE Global Initiative on Ethics of Autonomous and Intelligent Systems\nEthics in thoughtbot's Purpose Statement\nDesigning for Happiness- Pamela Pavliscak\nPratt Institute\nSoundingBox\nPamela on Twitter\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chad is joined by Pamela Pavliscak, founder of Change Sciences, about human-centered design thinking, and incorporating well-being & ethics as a measure of success.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chad is joined by Pamela Pavliscak, founder of Change Sciences, about human-centered design thinking, and incorporating well-being & ethics as a measure of success.","date_published":"2018-02-05T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/c45e540e-d280-46fd-8053-ec956cf04524.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":34543905,"duration_in_seconds":2155}]},{"id":"c06e7de1-2811-48a9-9900-4bfc4c4d320c","title":"260: Treating Yourself Like a Business (Andrew Carroll)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/260","content_text":"Chad is joined by Andrew Carroll, CPA and independent CFO, to discuss how the new tax regulations will affect freelancers, small business, & solopreneurs. Also, recommended strategies for savings, retirement, and investing for entrepreneurs.\n\n\nCFO Andrew\nQuickbooks Online\nGusto\nAndrew on Twitter\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chad is joined by Andrew Carroll, CPA and independent CFO, to discuss how the new tax regulations will affect freelancers, small business, & solopreneurs. Also, recommended strategies for savings, retirement, and investing for entrepreneurs.
\n\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chad is joined by Andrew Carroll, CPA and independent CFO, to discuss how the new tax regulations will affect freelancers, small business, & solopreneurs.","date_published":"2018-01-29T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/521c37a6-888b-402d-8694-e536cedcc7a8.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":37864526,"duration_in_seconds":2363}]},{"id":"5ebff0b8-8512-427e-9455-63c006e8402b","title":"259: Carve Your Own Story (Curtis Herbert)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/259","content_text":"Chad is joined by Curtis Herbert, independent app developer and creator of Slopes, to discuss balancing client and product work, the pros & cons of a seasonal app, the importance of outreach, and experimenting with non-traditional business models.\n\n\nSlopes\nBreakpoint Studio\nCurtis on Twitter\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chad is joined by Curtis Herbert, independent app developer and creator of Slopes, to discuss balancing client and product work, the pros & cons of a seasonal app, the importance of outreach, and experimenting with non-traditional business models.
\n\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chad is joined by Curtis Herbert, independent app developer and creator of Slopes, to discuss balancing client and product work, the pros & cons of a seasonal app, the importance of outreach, and experimenting with non-traditional business models.","date_published":"2018-01-22T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/9535e8f3-3fe9-450b-823c-b6d2b6aa11a8.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":41565620,"duration_in_seconds":2594}]},{"id":"5c518ff0-9d02-4ee5-acaf-82a21bd886a5","title":"258: Doing it on Principle (Max Seelemann)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/258","content_text":"Chad is joined by Max Seelemann, co-founder and lead developer of Ulysses, to discuss app-review, the complexities of multi-platform releases, initiating a full-app rewrite, and switching to a subscription pricing-model.\n\n\nUlysses Writing App\nSunk Cost Fallacy\n'Ulysses Switches to Subscription' Blog Post\nMax on Twitter\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chad is joined by Max Seelemann, co-founder and lead developer of Ulysses, to discuss app-review, the complexities of multi-platform releases, initiating a full-app rewrite, and switching to a subscription pricing-model.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chad is joined by Max Seelemann, co-founder and lead developer of Ulysses, to discuss app-review, the complexities of multi-platform releases, initiating a full-app rewrite, and switching to a subscription pricing-model.","date_published":"2018-01-15T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/c9f9ec22-0020-4e05-afe4-e9cb474b2065.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":37567004,"duration_in_seconds":2344}]},{"id":"3d9f2e29-b742-47e6-853b-024dc6d700d9","title":"257: Mapping the World For Parents (Anne Halsall)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/257","content_text":"Chad is joined by Anne Halsall, co-founder and Chief Product Officer of Winnie, discussing intention in branding, assumptions about features, balancing local and remote work, and quantifying growth.\n\n\nWinnie\nWinnie on Twitter\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chad is joined by Anne Halsall, co-founder and Chief Product Officer of Winnie, discussing intention in branding, assumptions about features, balancing local and remote work, and quantifying growth.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chad is joined by Anne Halsall, co-founder and Chief Product Officer of Winnie, discussing intention in branding, assumptions about features, balancing local and remote work, and quantifying growth.","date_published":"2018-01-08T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/19d443b9-1687-44ce-9ae1-5f7aee9eeb30.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":41093744,"duration_in_seconds":2565}]},{"id":"d1d209d2-bbdb-443d-a44b-f7aa7bb14a98","title":"256: Stay Hungry, Stay Learning (Hosted by Alan Wick)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/256","content_text":"The tables are flipped and Chad is interviewed by Alan Wick, at our Playbook Launch Party, on the lessons learned from starting thoughtbot, company methodology, and looking towards the challenges & opportunities of the future.\n\n\nthoughtbot Playbook\nCrossing the Chasm- Geoffrey A. Moore\nGeoffrey Moore on Giant Robots\nthoughtbot /purpose\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nThank you to Storyblocks for sponsoring today's episode!","content_html":"The tables are flipped and Chad is interviewed by Alan Wick, at our Playbook Launch Party, on the lessons learned from starting thoughtbot, company methodology, and looking towards the challenges & opportunities of the future.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nThank you to Storyblocks for sponsoring today's episode!
","summary":"The tables are flipped and Chad is interviewed by Alan Wick, at our Playbook Launch Party, on the lessons learned from starting thoughtbot, company methodology, and looking towards the challenges & opportunities of the future.","date_published":"2017-12-18T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/5f7c557e-f74f-4897-8ca7-365dca59e74d.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":45738525,"duration_in_seconds":2855}]},{"id":"5b9bd120-e1da-4c6f-b87d-9b116f1ad558","title":"255: Solving the Whole Problem (Maria Parker)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/255","content_text":"Chad chats with Maria Parker, CEO of Cruzbike, about running your first Kickstarter, issues with scaling production, and the challenge of shifting public perceptions.\n\n\nHopscotch Design Festival\nCruzbike\nCrossing the Chasm- Geoffrey A. Moore\n3000 Miles to a Cure\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!\n\nThank you to Storyblocks for sponsoring today's episode!","content_html":"Chad chats with Maria Parker, CEO of Cruzbike, about running your first Kickstarter, issues with scaling production, and the challenge of shifting public perceptions.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
\n\nThank you to Storyblocks for sponsoring today's episode!
","summary":"Chad chats with Maria Parker, CEO of Cruzbike, about running your first Kickstarter, issues with scaling production, and the challenge of shifting public perceptions.","date_published":"2017-12-04T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/4969b73d-2988-47bb-a238-ea41be375743.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":39891275,"duration_in_seconds":2489}]},{"id":"d524c9c3-f450-4db1-a842-4241d86b2c63","title":"254: Product and Vision (Chris Savage & Brendan Schwartz)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/254","content_text":"Chad talks with Chris Savage & Brendan Schwartz, co-founders of Wistia, about building/launching new products, hiring, and managing company identity & vision.\n\n\nWistia\nChris & Brendan on Giant Robots\nWistiafest video marketing conference\nSoapbox\n\n\nThank you to Storyblocks for sponsoring today's episode!","content_html":"Chad talks with Chris Savage & Brendan Schwartz, co-founders of Wistia, about building/launching new products, hiring, and managing company identity & vision.
\n\nThank you to Storyblocks for sponsoring today's episode!
","summary":"Chad talks with Chris & Brendan, co-founders of Wistia, about building/launching new products, hiring, and managing company identity & vision.","date_published":"2017-11-20T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/6d52d787-a699-49ea-8e77-f4736b3cce57.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":42508536,"duration_in_seconds":2653}]},{"id":"cc96e2f3-1a51-4a27-9429-c59cd18feb88","title":"253: iPads For Camp (Aleen Simms)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/253","content_text":"Chad is joined by Aleen Simms, an organizer for App Camp For Girls, to discuss the importance and logistics of their new Indiegogo Campaign.\n\nHead over to the App Camp Indiegogo via tbot.io/appcamp to have your donation matched today!\n\n\nApp Camp for Girls\nVolunteer!\nVolunteer Interest Form\nThe Incomparable Podcast\nAleen on The Incomparable Network\nOriginality Podcast\nAleen on Twitter\n\n\nCheck out our newest podcast, Crossroads.\n\nThank you to Storyblocks for sponsoring today's episode!","content_html":"Chad is joined by Aleen Simms, an organizer for App Camp For Girls, to discuss the importance and logistics of their new Indiegogo Campaign.
\n\nHead over to the App Camp Indiegogo via tbot.io/appcamp to have your donation matched today!
\n\nCheck out our newest podcast, Crossroads.
\n\nThank you to Storyblocks for sponsoring today's episode!
","summary":"Chad is joined by Aleen Simms, an organizer for App Camp For Girls, to discuss the importance and logistics of their new Indiegogo Campaign.","date_published":"2017-11-03T13:45:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/6722d89e-cec9-48fd-aefb-3f2272143edf.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":26333515,"duration_in_seconds":1642}]},{"id":"f033fb7f-3be9-4c22-ad68-1d6f87fe02d1","title":"252: Strategic Foresight (Amy Webb)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/252","content_text":"Chad is joined by Amy Webb, Professor at the Stern School of Business NYU and Founder & Quantitative Futurist at The Future Today Institute, to discuss distilling trends, incremental decision making, and the role of organizational management on the outcome of a company's future.\n\n\nFuture Today Institute\nThe Innovator's Dilemma- Clayton M. Christensen\nExponent Podcast\nMicrosoft Tay Bot\nBotness Scale\nThe Signals Are Talking: Why Today’s Fringe Is Tomorrow’s Mainstream- Amy Webb\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chad is joined by Amy Webb, Professor at the Stern School of Business NYU and Founder & Quantitative Futurist at The Future Today Institute, to discuss distilling trends, incremental decision making, and the role of organizational management on the outcome of a company's future.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chad is joined by Amy Webb, Professor at the Stern School of Business NYU and Founder & Quantitative Futurist at The Future Today Institute, to discuss distilling trends, incremental decision making, and the role of organizational management on the outcome of a company's future.","date_published":"2017-10-24T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/9a9277dd-7047-4fe9-bf4b-e7014fe7e08e.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":38407520,"duration_in_seconds":2397}]},{"id":"697dab69-c902-4c0e-baf3-cb8ec2fa6ede","title":"251: More Than Just Pretty Pictures (Jarrod Drysdale)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/251","content_text":"Chad is joined by designer and author Jarrod Drysdale to discuss lessons learned from shutting down Cascade, writing about design, cultivating content for your audience, and design's evolving role within organizations.\n\n\nJarrod on Giant Robots\nTheorySprints design course\nStudio Fellow\nProximity School of Design\nJarrod on Twitter\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chad is joined by designer and author Jarrod Drysdale to discuss lessons learned from shutting down Cascade, writing about design, cultivating content for your audience, and design's evolving role within organizations.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chad is joined by designer and author Jarrod Drysdale to discuss lessons learned from shutting down Cascade, writing about design, cultivating content for your audience, and design's evolving role within organizations.","date_published":"2017-10-09T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/ccc81aac-014e-48cc-a6d1-c3fcba2b5f8c.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":39307804,"duration_in_seconds":2453}]},{"id":"6ef0d259-0686-4440-b364-0c8927bdc781","title":"250: The Internet of Payments (Anders Brownworth)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/250","content_text":"Chad is joined by Anders Brownworth, Chief Evangelist at Circle, to discuss zero-cost transaction fees, cryptocurrency, and re-envisioning modern payment systems.\n\n\nCircle\nDisruptive Innovation- Clayton Christensen\nThe Critical Path Podcast\nAnders on Twitter\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chad is joined by Anders Brownworth, Chief Evangelist at Circle, to discuss zero-cost transaction fees, cryptocurrency, and re-envisioning modern payment systems.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chad is joined by Anders Brownworth, Chief Evangelist at Circle, to discuss zero-cost transaction fees, cryptocurrency, and re-envisioning modern payment systems.","date_published":"2017-09-26T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/597bdc9d-f719-46e1-b13f-a981b355a8ff.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":34348718,"duration_in_seconds":2143}]},{"id":"c1eb787c-123b-4959-9ec6-d97f13bc241e","title":"249: The Business of Buying (Thomas Smale)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/249","content_text":"Chad is joined by Thomas Smale, founder of FE International to discuss valuations, selling SaaS businesses, and tips to make your product more attractive to potential buyers.\n\n\nThe Developer's Path Video\nFE International\nSaaS Valuations: How to Value a SaaS Business in 2017\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chad is joined by Thomas Smale, founder of FE International to discuss valuations, selling SaaS businesses, and tips to make your product more attractive to potential buyers.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chad is joined by Thomas Smale, founder of FE International to discuss valuations, selling SaaS businesses, and tips to make your product more attractive to potential buyers.","date_published":"2017-09-12T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/85c4bd7d-39a5-4011-b974-36fc07744184.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":35777303,"duration_in_seconds":2232}]},{"id":"cad296cb-166a-47a7-a851-1de03efae503","title":"248: Crossing the Chasm (Geoffrey A. Moore)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/248","content_text":"Chad is joined by author Geoffrey A. Moore to discuss the concepts in Crossing the Chasm and how they relate to scaling consulting.\n\n\nThe full transcript for this episode\nCrossing the Chasm- Geoffrey A. Moore\n\"How Great Leaders Inspire Action\"- Simon Sinek TED Talk\nSeth Godin on Giant Robots\nBehind the Cloud- Marc Benioff, Carlye Adler\nZone to Win- Geoffrey A. Moore\nMicrosoft Re-Designs the iPod Packaging\nGeoffrey's Homepage\nGeoffrey on Linkedin\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chad is joined by author Geoffrey A. Moore to discuss the concepts in Crossing the Chasm and how they relate to scaling consulting.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chad is joined by author Geoffrey A. Moore to discuss the concepts in Crossing the Chasm and how they relate to scaling consulting.","date_published":"2017-08-28T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/a27472c3-f342-4885-901e-40ff86d673ab.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":38005443,"duration_in_seconds":2372}]},{"id":"9fe2876f-f1b2-4ef1-b74d-436047a1f787","title":"247: The Developer’s Path (Laurie Young)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/247","content_text":"Chad is joined by Laurie Young to discuss The Developer's Path, a panel discussion hosted at thoughtbot London on how companies and developers can work together to achieve reciprocal growth.\n\n\nDeveloper's Path Panel Video\nthoughtbot Playbook- Apprenticeship\nMakers Academy\nRails Girls London\nRailsBridge\nOver the Air\nApprentice.io\nLaurie on Twitter\n","content_html":"Chad is joined by Laurie Young to discuss The Developer's Path, a panel discussion hosted at thoughtbot London on how companies and developers can work together to achieve reciprocal growth.
\n\nChad is joined by Sara Chipps, cofounder of Girl Develop It & CEO of Jewelbots, to discuss integrating with custom hardware, building a community of young coders, working with retailers, and branding.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chad is joined by Sara Chipps, cofounder of Girl Develop It & CEO of Jewelbots, to discuss integrating with custom hardware, building a community of young coders, working with retailers, and branding. ","date_published":"2017-07-28T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/3d4cab57-43ef-425d-9c45-68d6fe3c8e63.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":38807135,"duration_in_seconds":2422}]},{"id":"b3be5743-466b-4f12-b22c-4047ed691fde","title":"245: F is for Feelings (Gregg Pollack)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/245","content_text":"Chad is joined by Code School & Envy Labs founder Gregg Pollack to discuss optimal work environments and building a company to support Open Source Projects.\n\n\nGregg on Giant Robots\nStarter Studio\nBrené Brown\nThe Human Element\nCode Pop\nUpcase\nSell Your By-Products\nDive into Neovim on Upcase\nGregg's Blog\nGregg on Twitter\nPanel Discussion: The Developer’s Path\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chad is joined by Code School & Envy Labs founder Gregg Pollack to discuss optimal work environments and building a company to support Open Source Projects.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chad is joined by Code School & Envy Labs founder Gregg Pollack to discuss optimal work environments and building a company to support Open Source Projects.","date_published":"2017-07-13T13:30:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/acb4a6de-f545-4a9a-b80f-5988fe2df1fa.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":53573588,"duration_in_seconds":3345}]},{"id":"c55a1e20-526c-48c0-b6f1-eac00e805ab1","title":"244: A Fork in the Road (Seth Godin)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/244","content_text":"Chad is joined by author, blogger, entrepreneur, and marketer Seth Godin to discuss the organizational introspection required to move from the cutting edge to the mainstream.\n\n\nThe full transcript for this episode\nSeth on Giant Robots\nTribes: We Need You to Lead Us: Seth Godin\nThe Dip: Seth Godin\nthoughtbot Playbook\nCrossing the Chasm: Geoffrey A. Moore\nR/GA\nGoogle Ngram Viewer\nJeff Koons\naltMBA\nThe Marketing Seminar\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chad is joined by author, blogger, entrepreneur, and marketer Seth Godin to discuss the organizational introspection required to move from the cutting edge to the mainstream.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chad is joined by author, blogger, entrepreneur, and marketer Seth Godin to discuss the organizational introspection required to move from the cutting edge to the mainstream.","date_published":"2017-07-04T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/6ebd28bb-c150-4cbe-8d39-7add61227aaf.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":31582247,"duration_in_seconds":1970}]},{"id":"5508a20c-0f9e-4c85-8620-2c149cf3b381","title":"243: Mostly Local (Mike McKenna)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/243","content_text":"Chad is joined by Mike McKenna, CEO of Shotgunflat, to discuss cultivating a business in the town in which one grew up, working with family, the effect of adding a sales team to a consultancy, and the legislation of craft-brewing.\n\n\nShotgunflat\nThirsty Goat Brewing\nMtn Wknd\nMike on Twitter\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chad is joined by Mike McKenna, CEO of Shotgunflat, to discuss cultivating a business in the town in which one grew up, working with family, the effect of adding a sales team to a consultancy, and the legislation of craft-brewing.
\n\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chad is joined by Mike McKenna, CEO of Shotgunflat, to discuss cultivating a business in the town in which one grew up, working with family, the effect of adding a sales team to a consultancy, and the legislation of craft-brewing. ","date_published":"2017-06-27T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/a32e3ce3-1ddd-4c5a-bf36-4caff663aeb3.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":35346322,"duration_in_seconds":2205}]},{"id":"bae2b3e3-45d6-4d14-92d2-f1246dd7461e","title":"242: Too Dressed Up For The Internet (Kim Goulbourne)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/242","content_text":"Chad is joined by thoughtbot designer Kim Goulbourne to discuss inspiration, side projects, and winning a Webby Award!\n\n\nThe Webby Awards\nBitter Renter\n\"Suck it Zillow. I won!\"\nNo Questions Asked\nMade By Bourn\nKim on Twitter\nKim on Instagram\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chad is joined by thoughtbot designer Kim Goulbourne to discuss inspiration, side projects, and winning a Webby Award!
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chad is joined by thoughtbot designer Kim Goulbourne to discuss inspiration, side projects, and winning a Webby Award!","date_published":"2017-06-19T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/69e56c60-da1d-4ea7-87d1-9ec3c9548904.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":23450432,"duration_in_seconds":1462}]},{"id":"8b401912-a1e6-49d8-bade-d56c7a0427f4","title":"241: I Don’t Like Talking to Computers (Nick Charlton)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/241","content_text":"Chad is joined by Nick Charlton, thoughtbot developer and co-host of the Build Phase podcast, to give their impressions on all the news out of the WWDC17 Keynote & Platforms State of the Union.\n\n\nBuild Phase\nWWDC17 Keynote\nPlatforms State of the Union\nI/O '17 discussion on The Bike Shed\nEncoding and Decoding Custom Types\nArgo\n\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!","content_html":"Chad is joined by Nick Charlton, thoughtbot developer and co-host of the Build Phase podcast, to give their impressions on all the news out of the WWDC17 Keynote & Platforms State of the Union.
\n\nBecome a Sponsor of Giant Robots!
","summary":"Chad is joined by Nick Charlton, thoughtbot developer and co-host of the Build Phase podcast, to give their impressions on all the news out of the WWDC17 Keynote & Platforms State of the Union.","date_published":"2017-06-07T16:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/a51ef2e4-077f-44fd-9c21-828b5288c03b.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":59802434,"duration_in_seconds":3734}]},{"id":"2333848a-1679-4875-b020-f83cc3cee33e","title":"240: Handing Over the Reins","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/240","content_text":"Ben outlines his next steps, reflects on his time at thoughtbot, and hands the proverbial podcast reins over to Chad.\n\n\nBallroom Dancing Onboarding on Giant Robots\nThe Art of Product Podcast\nArt of Vim Intro- Ben acting in a smoking jacket\nUpcase\nRefactoring From Good to Great\n\"Blurred Lines\"- Kyle Fiedler\n","content_html":"Ben outlines his next steps, reflects on his time at thoughtbot, and hands the proverbial podcast reins over to Chad.
\n\nBen bids adieu to thoughtbot, and outlines his plans, hopes, and fears for the future.
\n\nDerrick gets technical about Drip's performance optimization, and reflects on pre-conceived opinions in regards to tactical & strategic planning after receiving some constructive criticism.
\n\nBen and Derrick recount their experiences and lessons learned speaking at MicroConf.
\n\nThank you to our sponsor this week, FreshBooks
","summary":"Ben and Derrick recount their experiences and lessons learned speaking at MicroConf.","date_published":"2017-04-28T23:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/cdbeabee-b24a-4da8-8832-a4d0f4dddf5c.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":32902998,"duration_in_seconds":2053}]},{"id":"36db1fa1-648d-4662-91ec-092eb024d816","title":"236: Care For Customer Support (Spencer Fry)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/236","content_text":"Ben is joined this week by Spencer Fry, founder of TypeFrag, Carbonmade, Uncover, and Coach, to discuss carryover lessons of successful startups.\n\n\nUpcase\nFormKeep\nTypeFrag\nCarbonmade\nCoach\nWhy I Started Coach\nBeing a Solo Founder\nNotation Capital\nPerseverance Pays Off\nCreativity, Inc.\nSpencer on Twitter\n\n\nThank you to our sponsor this week, FreshBooks","content_html":"Ben is joined this week by Spencer Fry, founder of TypeFrag, Carbonmade, Uncover, and Coach, to discuss carryover lessons of successful startups.
\n\nThank you to our sponsor this week, FreshBooks
","summary":"Ben is joined this week by Spencer Fry, founder of TypeFrag, Carbonmade, Uncover, and Coach, to discuss carryover lessons of successful startups.","date_published":"2017-04-21T23:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/0eec57d2-be86-491f-9fb6-2c3d08edc33b.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":36186485,"duration_in_seconds":2258}]},{"id":"79df6b25-dee4-4b39-9122-73b7287dc8eb","title":"235: Meta Talk Process","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/235","content_text":"As we prepare for MicroConf, Ben takes a new tact on his talk after giving an early demo, and Derrick recounts a positive pair-programming experience.\n\n\nUpcase\nFormKeep\nScreenhero\n\n\nThank you to our sponsor this week, FreshBooks","content_html":"As we prepare for MicroConf, Ben takes a new tact on his talk after giving an early demo, and Derrick recounts a positive pair-programming experience.
\n\nThank you to our sponsor this week, FreshBooks
","summary":"As we prepare for MicroConf, Ben takes a new tact on his talk after giving an early demo, and Derrick recounts a positive pair-programming experience.","date_published":"2017-04-12T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/971f05c0-ad2f-4f13-b8b4-92977e082088.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":29836013,"duration_in_seconds":1861}]},{"id":"71a092e2-7aa0-4eae-908e-bb3073c9142b","title":"234: Secret Features","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/234","content_text":"On FormKeep, Ben implements custom redirects on form submissions and starts a test to remove up-front credit card collection, as well as discusses evaluation of feature requests. On Drip, Derrick walks through the app with new devs, considers on-boarding automation, and continues his refactoring project.\n\n\nUpcase\nFormKeep\nthoughtbot Laptop Setup Script\nTherapeutic Refactoring\nRack::Attack\n\n\nThank you to our sponsor this week, FreshBooks","content_html":"On FormKeep, Ben implements custom redirects on form submissions and starts a test to remove up-front credit card collection, as well as discusses evaluation of feature requests. On Drip, Derrick walks through the app with new devs, considers on-boarding automation, and continues his refactoring project.
\n\n\n\nThank you to our sponsor this week, FreshBooks
","summary":"On FormKeep, Ben implements custom redirects on form submissions and starts a test to remove up-front credit card collection, as well as discusses evaluation of feature requests. On Drip, Derrick walks through the app with new devs, considers on-boarding automation, and continues his refactoring project.","date_published":"2017-04-05T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/18f87dce-3a02-4bc2-a2d4-550ba7a6a346.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":28640232,"duration_in_seconds":1786}]},{"id":"6c39e486-6acc-4498-8904-ed208899d650","title":"233: Insert Mode is the Worst Mode","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/233","content_text":"Derrick welcomes new Javascript and Rails developers to Drip. Ben prepares a content deal and interviews a Content Manager for Upcase, discusses the benefits and methodology to Vim proficiency, works on an integration with Wistia, and ponders growing / selling apps.\n\n\nUpcase\nFormKeep\nHow to Find Your Genius Zone- Laura Garnett\nSurviving Your First Week in Vim\nWistia\nStartups For the Rest of Us\nWhat It's Like Buying a $128k Side Project\n\n\nThank you to our sponsor this week, FreshBooks","content_html":"Derrick welcomes new Javascript and Rails developers to Drip. Ben prepares a content deal and interviews a Content Manager for Upcase, discusses the benefits and methodology to Vim proficiency, works on an integration with Wistia, and ponders growing / selling apps.
\n\nThank you to our sponsor this week, FreshBooks
","summary":"Derrick welcomes new Javascript and Rails developers to Drip. Ben prepares a content deal and interviews a Content Manager for Upcase, discusses the benefits and methodology to Vim proficiency, works on an integration with Wistia, and ponders growing / selling apps.","date_published":"2017-03-27T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/9fa88530-24d5-4a11-9982-4a0d86426a66.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":26524940,"duration_in_seconds":1654}]},{"id":"6d4f215a-1941-4705-bab8-cc779a2d0905","title":"232: Don't Be Boring","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/232","content_text":"As Ben and Derrick prepare their talks for MicroConf, Ben shares his tips and habits for talk preparation and public speaking.\n\n\nUpcase\nFormKeep\nBen's Pre-Talk Checklist\nHow to Talk to Developers\n\n\nThank you to our sponsor this week, FreshBooks","content_html":"As Ben and Derrick prepare their talks for MicroConf, Ben shares his tips and habits for talk preparation and public speaking.
\n\n\n\nThank you to our sponsor this week, FreshBooks
","summary":"As Ben and Derrick prepare their talks for MicroConf, Ben shares his tips and habits for talk preparation and public speaking.","date_published":"2017-03-22T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/390792a0-8c72-444f-ad52-2754886b1878.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":26372385,"duration_in_seconds":1644}]},{"id":"f4466d5d-1f52-4081-b1b1-dd888e4d4bf7","title":"231: Who Likes Using Ugly Software?","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/231","content_text":"Ben & Derrick reflect on the S3 outage and how it affected their services, and muse on managing user perceptions. Derrick submits a talk to MicroConf on what it means to be \"customer driven\", and begins a refactoring effort to rework Drip's integration system. On Upcase, Ben integrates a referral widget, and enables subscription pausing, while on FormKeep he fixes a trial plan selection bug.\n\n\nUpcase\nFormKeep\nAWS S3 Disruption Postmortem\nThe Netflix Simian Army\nChaos Monkey\nOctopus Gem\nMicroConf\nReferral SaaSquatch\n\n\nThank you to our sponsor this week, FreshBooks","content_html":"Ben & Derrick reflect on the S3 outage and how it affected their services, and muse on managing user perceptions. Derrick submits a talk to MicroConf on what it means to be "customer driven", and begins a refactoring effort to rework Drip's integration system. On Upcase, Ben integrates a referral widget, and enables subscription pausing, while on FormKeep he fixes a trial plan selection bug.
\n\nThank you to our sponsor this week, FreshBooks
","summary":"Ben & Derrick reflect on the S3 outage and how it affected their services, and muse on managing user perceptions. Derrick submits a talk to MicroConf on what it means to be \"customer driven\", and begins a refactoring effort to rework Drip's integration system. On Upcase, Ben integrates a referral widget, and enables subscription pausing, while on FormKeep he fixes a trial plan selection bug.","date_published":"2017-03-14T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/b26df780-b9e9-490f-b3e4-1af95d2b2338.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":31761133,"duration_in_seconds":1981}]},{"id":"3bf2feea-075d-441b-82af-a98bcbe64f06","title":"230: Sales Through Education (Anna Jacobsen)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/230","content_text":"Ben & Derrick welcome Anna Jacobsen, Education Director at Drip, to discuss customer demos / onboarding, sales and retention strategies, customer success, and best practices within Drip.\n\n\nUpcase\nFormKeep\nDrip\nDrip Certification Course\nLessons Learned From a Year of Product Demos at Drip- Anna Jacobsen @ MicroConf\nRob Walling on Giant Robots\nCalendly\n59 Days of Code\nHashtag Fresno\nAnna on Twitter\n\n\nThank you to our sponsor this week, FreshBooks","content_html":"Ben & Derrick welcome Anna Jacobsen, Education Director at Drip, to discuss customer demos / onboarding, sales and retention strategies, customer success, and best practices within Drip.
\n\nThank you to our sponsor this week, FreshBooks
","summary":"Ben & Derrick welcome Anna Jacobsen, Education Director at Drip, to discuss customer demos / onboarding, sales and retention strategies, customer success, and best practices within Drip.","date_published":"2017-03-06T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/345aa797-3bab-48e2-bd3e-2d75e0d040c5.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":31659569,"duration_in_seconds":1975}]},{"id":"8bb128fc-b048-4cbb-adbd-50b8f2d4a2ed","title":"229: We Need More Counters","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/229","content_text":"On FormKeep, Ben runs an A/B test on trial length and adds a short onboarding survey, meanwhile wrapping up team signups and working on a content licensing deal for Upcase. Derrick reports back from his machine learning class, and discusses an issue in quality assurance testing.\n\n\nUpcase\nFormKeep\nAccount Details\nMicroConf: Starter Edition\nJason Cohen - Designing the Ideal Bootstrapped Business: MicroConf Talk\nStripe Radar\n","content_html":"On FormKeep, Ben runs an A/B test on trial length and adds a short onboarding survey, meanwhile wrapping up team signups and working on a content licensing deal for Upcase. Derrick reports back from his machine learning class, and discusses an issue in quality assurance testing.
\n\nDerrick travels to Portland to visit fellow bootstrapper friends, Ben recounts his recent conference travel, and a discussion of their most pivotal hires as well as account rescue techniques.
\n\nDerrick celebrates a great shipping week, completing both 'live segments' and a Drip certification course. Ben recounts the rollout & results of the Upcase + Tapas promotion, and reflects on its successes and possible pitfalls.
\n\nBen presses to meet the Upcase & Tapas launch deadline, and shares some lessons learned from its preparation, promotion, and launch. On Drip, Derrick rolls out more UI updates, is looking to hire JavaScript and Rails engineers, and details his hiring & interview process.
\n\n","summary":"Ben presses to meet the Upcase & Tapas launch deadline, and shares some lessons learned from its preparation, promotion, and launch. On Drip, Derrick rolls out more UI updates, is looking to hire JavaScript and Rails engineers, and details his hiring & interview process.","date_published":"2017-02-06T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/43c0ac6d-2be6-4a47-97f4-6a65296488e9.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":21878423,"duration_in_seconds":1364}]},{"id":"a38b135f-906c-4213-a7fe-98fef1e900ff","title":"225: Abuse the Sunk-Cost Fallacy","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/225","content_text":"Ben halts the search for a marketer to instead hire a sales consultant and focus on growth himself, and announces a collaboration with Ruby Tapas. Derrick enrolls in a machine learning class, and contemplates Drip team & work structure.\n\n\nUpcase\nFormKeep\nWhat My Calendar Looks Like- Jason Fried\nUpcase + Tapas Promo\nRuby Tapas\nMastering Product Launches\nHow We Structure Our Work and Teams at Basecamp\nWistia\nMachine Learning Class\n\n\nThank you to our sponsor this week Mobile Dev + Test Conference from Techwell","content_html":"Ben halts the search for a marketer to instead hire a sales consultant and focus on growth himself, and announces a collaboration with Ruby Tapas. Derrick enrolls in a machine learning class, and contemplates Drip team & work structure.
\n\nThank you to our sponsor this week Mobile Dev + Test Conference from Techwell
","summary":"Ben halts the search for a marketer to instead hire a sales consultant and focus on growth himself, and announces a collaboration with Ruby Tapas. Derrick enrolls in a machine learning class, and contemplates Drip team & work structure.","date_published":"2017-01-30T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/65584676-4125-4150-a888-8ef9cd3ff1fc.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":30516033,"duration_in_seconds":1903}]},{"id":"83071de9-8031-49a0-81a8-9205a310ce30","title":"224: Sharpen Your Saw","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/224","content_text":"Derrick takes a solo retreat to reflect on new goals for Drip, and draws up preliminary plans for scaling team size / structure, as well as speeding up velocity through parallelism. Ben shares his experience with GrowthHackers Projects, hides the lowest plan and implements an automated annual upgrade reminder, pitches a content partnership for Upcase, considers a thoughtbot products bundle, and realizes a need for a mentor.\n\n\nUpcase\nFormKeep\nThe Zen Founder Guide to Founder Retreats\nZenFounder Podcast\nAppointed\nGrowthHackers\nOmniFocus\nRuby Tapas\nPredictable Revenue- Aaron Ross & Marylou Tyler\n","content_html":"Derrick takes a solo retreat to reflect on new goals for Drip, and draws up preliminary plans for scaling team size / structure, as well as speeding up velocity through parallelism. Ben shares his experience with GrowthHackers Projects, hides the lowest plan and implements an automated annual upgrade reminder, pitches a content partnership for Upcase, considers a thoughtbot products bundle, and realizes a need for a mentor.
\n\nBen & Derrick discuss music in the workplace, optimizing Redis, reaching larger markets beyond early adopters, and standing out in job application e-mails.
\n\nDerrick considers learning a new language to be prepared for scaling Drip's optimization, and gives new details on the tech used to streamline queries for large accounts. Ben breaks down his post to finding the best candidate for product Head of Marketing, and pointers on developing an entrepreneur's mindset.
\n\nBen discusses the lessons of mimicked learning and tempering of judgmental thinking gleaned from a sports book, and muses on how to apply them to career advice. On Drip, faced with a mountain of catch-up work after the holiday, Derek confronts scalability.
\n\nBen decides to hire a support firm, document support processes, completes the Hound pricing change, and prepares to make products their own division for next year. Meanwhile, on Drip, Derrick addresses a performance challenge.
\n\nBen is joined by Mike Perham, author of Sidekiq, to discuss running a business solo, taking a side project from hobby to full time job, and scaling support as an app grows.
\n\nOn Drip, Derrick launches a free tier, and utilizes credit card anti-fraud measures. Ben publicly launches FormLinter, pauses exploring new product ideas in favor of giving attention to existing ones, and starts to rebuild the product team. They also discuss the merits of remote vs in-person collaboration, the pros and cons of open offices, and dealing with interruptions from notifications and meetings.
\n\nBen and Nick get super nerdy this week and chat about Meetspace's architecture using Go, Postgres, and HMAC including custom cookie signing, rendering, error handling, tooling, and more!
\n\n![Misty Series Pics](\"https://images.thoughtbot.com/blog-vellum-image-uploads/pLSqkrMoRqGHLSRbHO1Q_MistyIphoto.jpg\"){kind=link}
![Shipping Hat](\"http://images.thoughtbot.com/podcasts/giantrobots/shippinghat.jpg\"){kind=link}
GIANTROBOTS30 for 30% off your first monthSadly, Ben is stuck in hammock somewhere, and we are without a new episode this week. However, we would love you all to check out thoughtbot's newest podcast, interviewing inspirational designers, developers, and other makers in tech, The Laila & Brenda Show!
\n\nGive their latest episode a listen here, and if you like it subscribe to their feed however you listen to podcasts!
\n\n","summary":"Sadly, Ben is stuck in hammock somewhere, and we are without a new episode this week. However, we would love you all to check out thoughtbot's newest podcast, interviewing inspirational designers, developers, and other makers in tech, The Laila & Brenda Show!\r\n\r\nGive their latest episode a listen here, and if you like it subscribe to their feed however you listen to podcasts!","date_published":"2016-11-07T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/17225274-afe7-46f8-90a2-54158f03ca0a.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":37405189,"duration_in_seconds":2334}]},{"id":"1d62b1c2-86c8-4be9-bb0d-e71ff3a986e6","title":"215: SaaS is a Marathon, Not a Sprint","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/215","content_text":"Ben and Nick chat about ways to pitch your product, working solo as well as sustainably, and the costs of doing business.\n\n\nUpcase\nFormKeep\nMeetspace- use code GIANTROBOTS30 for 30% off your first month\nStaying Motivated While Working Solo\nNick on Twitter\n","content_html":"Ben and Nick chat about ways to pitch your product, working solo as well as sustainably, and the costs of doing business.
\n\nGIANTROBOTS30 for 30% off your first monthBen talks to Nick Gauthier, founder of MeetSpace, about the importance of validating ideas, reading through API documentation, and pricing surveys.
\n\nGIANTROBOTS30 for 30% off your first monthDerrick finds some new areas to improve after walking new hires through Drip's architecture, and discusses his custom billing engine. On Hound, Ben delegates the new-pricing project, and validates a new product idea.
\n\nDerrick brings a few more new hires onto the team, and ships a change to make clients' Javascript snippets more performant. On Hound, Ben does some direct outreach sales, considers bringing on someone to help with marketing, and muses on the balancing act between product manager, developer, and marketing.
\n\nOn Hound, Ben sends out announcements for pricing changes, questions when a decision is the "right" decision when it comes to customer feedback, and toys with per-seat pricing model feasibility. Derrick has a successful first week on-boarding the new dev-ops hire, offers Ben some advice on balancing features with price, and discusses some customer acquisition campaigns.
\n\nBen plans a camping trip, acquires a new Twitter account, releases his notes on giving great conference talks, and begins to tell users of Hound's new pricing. Derrick reacts to the announcement of Github Projects and what that means for Codetree, ships the new form design on Drip, and muses on the ramifications to Google's announced penalizing of intrusive mobile pop-ups.
\n\nOn Drip, Derrick deals with a high-bandwidth customer and hires a new devops team member. Meanwhile, Ben brainstorms new pricing structures for Hound.
\n\nDerrick switches domains from getdrip.com to drip.co, begins to update the design of the Drip widget, and tries to find balance in his varying roles as CTO. Ben hands off the reigns of Upcase, switches to a low-tech project management solution, and mixes work and personal todos.
\n\nBen welcomes guest co-host Derrick Reimer, co-founder of Drip, getting to know his background and products for our first outside-thoughtbot view on SaaS strategy (as well as Ben's arm-twisty methods for getting him on the podcast in the first place)!
\n\n","summary":"Ben welcomes guest co-host Derrick Reimer, co-founder of Drip, getting to know his background and products for our first outside-thoughtbot view on SaaS strategy (as well as Ben's arm-twisty methods for getting him on the podcast in the first place)!","date_published":"2016-09-06T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/f036228c-a89a-48e9-9986-29c871a79309.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":32076692,"duration_in_seconds":2001}]},{"id":"2bf6596f-c3f6-4be3-a819-f9df063dd188","title":"206: I'm Glad We Talked About This (Chad Pytel)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/206","content_text":"thoughtbot CEO Chad Pytel joins Ben to discuss our recent office closings and reasons necessitating this decision, what this means for the product team, and the future of thoughtbot. Also, a teaser of what to expect next from Giant Robots Podcast.\n\n\nUpcase\nFormKeep\nHound\nChad on Giant Robots from last year\nChad on Twitter\n","content_html":"thoughtbot CEO Chad Pytel joins Ben to discuss our recent office closings and reasons necessitating this decision, what this means for the product team, and the future of thoughtbot. Also, a teaser of what to expect next from Giant Robots Podcast.
\n\n","summary":"thoughtbot CEO Chad Pytel joins Ben to discuss our recent office closings and reasons necessitating this decision, what this means for the product team, and the future of thoughtbot. Also, a teaser of what to expect next from Giant Robots Podcast.","date_published":"2016-08-22T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/3d60ceaa-d0f4-453d-a0c2-dac1270a3bb9.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":45387439,"duration_in_seconds":2833}]},{"id":"f1433d7c-e32e-4597-abe4-3a854c3c8f2e","title":"205: Bottling Calm","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/205","content_text":"Fresh back from vacation, Ben shifts his attention to a Hound project, adding in tiered plans and pricing. Chris begins to build out a drip sequence for content recommendations, prepares to roll off to return to client work, and leaves us with some final reflections, takeaways, and lessons learned while on Upcase.\n\n\nUpcase\nFormKeep\nHound\n./bin/setup\nWarren Buffett's 2-List System\n","content_html":"Fresh back from vacation, Ben shifts his attention to a Hound project, adding in tiered plans and pricing. Chris begins to build out a drip sequence for content recommendations, prepares to roll off to return to client work, and leaves us with some final reflections, takeaways, and lessons learned while on Upcase.
\n\n","summary":"Fresh back from vacation, Ben shifts his attention to a Hound project, adding in tiered plans and pricing. Chris begins to build out a drip sequence for content recommendations, prepares to roll off to return to client work, and leaves us with some final reflections, takeaways, and lessons learned while on Upcase.","date_published":"2016-08-08T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/e3c79c54-1c26-40ac-840e-f8b4871b47d6.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":41323622,"duration_in_seconds":2579}]},{"id":"f8894057-372f-43ae-841f-fb32c3fd21e4","title":"204: Disinclined, For Simplicity's Sake","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/204","content_text":"Chris delves into marketing mode for the TDD course, removes more client-side analytics code, and starts redesigning the information architecture on Upcase. On FormKeep, Ben alerts users to site down-time, removes all pay-per-form logic from the codebase, and begins to set up trials sans credit-card.\n\n\nUpcase\nFormKeep\nNetflix Culture Deck\nFundamentals of TDD on Upcase\nFundamentals of TDD Blog Post\nPingdom\nSandi Metz on Bike Shed\n","content_html":"Chris delves into marketing mode for the TDD course, removes more client-side analytics code, and starts redesigning the information architecture on Upcase. On FormKeep, Ben alerts users to site down-time, removes all pay-per-form logic from the codebase, and begins to set up trials sans credit-card.
\n\nBen receives some insight on customer referrals for FormKeep, applies his pricing philosophy to Hound, and realizes a personal blind-spot when it comes to customer satisfaction. On Upcase, Chris patches an automated follow-up messaging bug leading to enhanced focus on server-side analytics, welcomes Tyson to the team to begin work on trail mapping course content, and soft launches the Fundamentals of TDD trail.
\n\nBen rants about bad jokes on twitter, doesn't ship any improved activation features on FormKeep this week, irons out some bugs on FormLinter, and begins an ad campaign. Chris contemplates shifting Upcase's business model, and walks through the impetus driving this decision.
\n\n","summary":"Ben rants about bad jokes on twitter, doesn't ship any improved activation features on FormKeep this week, irons out some bugs on FormLinter, and begins an ad campaign. Chris contemplates shifting Upcase's business model, and walks through the impetus driving this decision.","date_published":"2016-07-18T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/a8008e86-2acc-455c-b4c7-696547a74707.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":39693163,"duration_in_seconds":2477}]},{"id":"1acd0f61-bc0c-4305-99f0-98f914c34fab","title":"201: The Difficulty is in Focusing","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/201","content_text":"Ben encounters a downed FormKeep and enables a monitoring service, completes the un-grandfathering process for accounts on old tiers, and begins work on improving activation flow. Chris sends out a survey to users and discovers a shift in the Upcase demographics.\n\n\nUpcase\nFormKeep\npingdom\nFormLinter\n","content_html":"Ben encounters a downed FormKeep and enables a monitoring service, completes the un-grandfathering process for accounts on old tiers, and begins work on improving activation flow. Chris sends out a survey to users and discovers a shift in the Upcase demographics.
\n\nChris digs into the causes for a MRR drop, discovering usage trends with seasonality; and in the process gets a clearer picture of Upcase's user base. Also, he welcome Geoff to the project, and begins a new marketing initiative driven by user testimonials. Ben welcomes Tyson onto team Formkeep to begin redesigning on boarding, and continues FormLinter improvements / marketing.
\n\n","summary":"Chris digs into the causes for a MRR drop, discovering usage trends with seasonality; and in the process gets a clearer picture of Upcase's user base. Also, he welcome Geoff to the project, and begins a new marketing initiative driven by user testimonials. Ben welcomes Tyson onto team Formkeep to begin redesigning on boarding, and continues FormLinter improvements / marketing.","date_published":"2016-07-04T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/d940efd4-e409-415f-a0a5-0839d5c1139b.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":44691119,"duration_in_seconds":2789}]},{"id":"aa7c4c5c-a14a-4187-9210-39d951a11693","title":"199: Heartening Frustration","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/199","content_text":"This week, we ruminate on the meta-organization of project management. Ben embraces team feedback on FormLinter.com, reaches the end of Formkeep's grandfathered pricing window, and removes sandboxing to streamline plan structures. Chris contemplates Upcase's role as a product within thoughtbot, prepares to welcome on new team members (bye Gabe!), and restructures topic relationships to improve discoverability. Also, the return of Dance Talk!\n\n\nUpcase\nFormkeep\nGetting Things Done\nWarren Buffett's 2-List System\nFormLinter\nRuby on Rails 15 Minute Blog Engine Demo\n","content_html":"This week, we ruminate on the meta-organization of project management. Ben embraces team feedback on FormLinter.com, reaches the end of Formkeep's grandfathered pricing window, and removes sandboxing to streamline plan structures. Chris contemplates Upcase's role as a product within thoughtbot, prepares to welcome on new team members (bye Gabe!), and restructures topic relationships to improve discoverability. Also, the return of Dance Talk!
\n\nOn Formkeep, Ben launches FormLinter to increase form accessibility and conversions, and looks forward to additional persons on thoughtbot product work. Chris continues marketing of the Bourbon Smash course, wrestles with metrics and analytics, and improves team logins on Upcase.
\n\nOn Upcase, Chris releases the Bourbon course, restructures how new courses are highlighted, and discusses juggling the various factors that contribute to MRR. Ben takes on-boarding notes from a century old dance school to improve activation on Formkeep.
\n\nBen changes product activation flow, possibly for the worse, launches a new UI, and muses on new customer acquisition for Formkeep. On Upcase, Chris starts to see benefits from the domain transition, and brainstorms on how to un-bottleneck course releases.
\n\nBen delays a new feature until an easier implementation can be reached, adds additional event tracking for better site usage feedback, takes a medium to large digression to rant about Javascript, and makes headway on Formkeep's UI refactor. On Upcase, Chris steps back from the content spotlight, takes a hit to traffic from the domain transition, and tests all things email.
\n\nChris transitions Upcase to thoughtbot.com/upcase for SEO and branding purposes, and introduces reactivate & resubscribe functionality. Ben publishes a blog post on Formkeep's pricing history, optimizes the initial form setup page, and begins work to implement a no credit card up-front trial.
\n\nBen switches from Mandrill to Sendgrid, turns a corner on his guarantee vs trial test, and begins the process of overhauling Formkeep's UI. Meanwhile, on Upcase, Chris utilizes an interesting method for A/B Testing, teases a secret project, and increases SEO by changing out the header.
\n\n","summary":"Ben switches from Mandrill to Sendgrid, turns a corner on his guarantee vs trial test, and begins the process of overhauling Formkeep's UI. Meanwhile, on Upcase, Chris utilizes an interesting method for A/B Testing, teases a secret project, and increases SEO by changing out the header.","date_published":"2016-05-09T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/e4ca8b82-2450-4783-b0fd-dbde2c5ec3a3.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":43571341,"duration_in_seconds":2719}]},{"id":"c01c8b18-fa2a-4083-be70-e46e5f0c7f60","title":"192: The High End of Reasonable","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/192","content_text":"Ben and Chris muse on the nature of weather-related happiness. Also, Ben works on instrumenting Formkeep's activation funnel, utilizes a monitoring utility to optimize sign-up flow, and vows to almost certainly not toy with pricing any more. Meanwhile on Upcase, Chris confronts multiple root causes for a dip in MRR, updates content displays, and overhauls the checkout.\n\n\nUpcase\nFormkeep\nThe Hedonic Treadmill\nFullStory\n","content_html":"Ben and Chris muse on the nature of weather-related happiness. Also, Ben works on instrumenting Formkeep's activation funnel, utilizes a monitoring utility to optimize sign-up flow, and vows to almost certainly not toy with pricing any more. Meanwhile on Upcase, Chris confronts multiple root causes for a dip in MRR, updates content displays, and overhauls the checkout.
\n\n","summary":"Ben and Chris muse on the nature of weather-related happiness. Also, Ben works on instrumenting Formkeep's activation funnel, utilizes a monitoring utility to optimize sign-up flow, and vows to almost certainly not toy with pricing any more. Meanwhile on Upcase, Chris confronts multiple root causes for a dip in MRR, updates content displays, and overhauls the checkout.","date_published":"2016-05-02T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/08b7117e-d7bc-49fc-8576-c382acbd5c31.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":48942600,"duration_in_seconds":3055}]},{"id":"563cc8f1-91b9-4e9f-9ad8-61b1e9d43047","title":"191: I've Done it Once, I'm an Expert","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/191","content_text":"Ben and Chris discuss taxes and financial (as well as bedtime) routines. On Upcase, Chris showcases \"The Weekly Iteration\" on the site, reveals a long-term dream for the platform, and patches a critical security issue. Ben adds a bunch of features to cut down on support requests, does some UX cleanup, and performs other general tasks to improve usability on Formkeep.\n\n\nUpcase\nFormkeep\nPhilips Hue\nThe Weekly Iteration\nCampaign Monitor- HTML Email Design Guidelines\nGit remote code execution vulnerability\nFlexbox\nFlexbox on The Weekly Iteration\nAccountDock\ncalendly\n\n\nThank you to Hired for sponsoring this episode!","content_html":"Ben and Chris discuss taxes and financial (as well as bedtime) routines. On Upcase, Chris showcases "The Weekly Iteration" on the site, reveals a long-term dream for the platform, and patches a critical security issue. Ben adds a bunch of features to cut down on support requests, does some UX cleanup, and performs other general tasks to improve usability on Formkeep.
\n\nThank you to Hired for sponsoring this episode!
","summary":"Ben and Chris discuss taxes and financial (as well as bedtime) routines. On Upcase, Chris showcases \"The Weekly Iteration\" on the site, reveals a long-term dream for the platform, and patches a critical security issue. Ben adds a bunch of features to cut down on support requests, does some UX cleanup, and performs other general tasks to improve usability on Formkeep.","date_published":"2016-04-25T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/9241f5d7-f3d9-4aed-95c0-afddd80821a5.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":45399142,"duration_in_seconds":2834}]},{"id":"1991588e-53e3-41f0-9df7-38abc9ba8e22","title":"190: An Unkempt Backlog","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/190","content_text":"Chris makes progress on Upcase's to-dos in order to shift focus to after-the-funnel improvements, and makes a renewed vow to talk to customers for direct feedback. Meanwhile, Ben attends a conference, and while he picked up some great strategies for Formkeep onboarding, he mostly just wants to fix the airline industry.\n\n\nUpcase\nFormkeep\nAdvanced ActiveRecord Querying- Bloopers\nGail Goodman: When software and people mix- Business of Software 2012\nStartups For the Rest of Us Ep 212- The Long, Slow Death of SaaS Ramp\nMicroConf\n\n\nThank you to Hired for sponsoring this episode!","content_html":"Chris makes progress on Upcase's to-dos in order to shift focus to after-the-funnel improvements, and makes a renewed vow to talk to customers for direct feedback. Meanwhile, Ben attends a conference, and while he picked up some great strategies for Formkeep onboarding, he mostly just wants to fix the airline industry.
\n\nThank you to Hired for sponsoring this episode!
","summary":"Chris makes progress on Upcase's to-dos in order to shift focus to after-the-funnel improvements, and makes a renewed vow to talk to customers for direct feedback. Meanwhile, Ben attends a conference, and while he picked up some great strategies for Formkeep on-boarding, he mostly just wants to fix the airline industry.","date_published":"2016-04-19T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/9ff7f698-50e1-4033-8215-1ddb73614dbe.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":53389686,"duration_in_seconds":3333}]},{"id":"5496daeb-a95e-43b2-a45d-e19d840390c1","title":"189: Swimming Against a Stream of Complexity","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/189","content_text":"Chris keeps improving MRR on Upcase, patches a Javascript problem with a Javascript solution, and implements benefit focused text on course descriptions. On Formkeep, Ben discovers a flaw in an A/B test, deals with squirrely payment code, and prepares for a conference talk.\n\n\nUpcase\nFormkeep\nMicroConf\nBriefs\nDark Patterns on Tentative Podcast\nPercy.io- Visual regression testing\nPaul Fernell (Litmus) on Giant Robots\nWeekly Iteration- Intro to Accessibility\n\n\nThank you to Hired for sponsoring this episode!","content_html":"Chris keeps improving MRR on Upcase, patches a Javascript problem with a Javascript solution, and implements benefit focused text on course descriptions. On Formkeep, Ben discovers a flaw in an A/B test, deals with squirrely payment code, and prepares for a conference talk.
\n\nThank you to Hired for sponsoring this episode!
","summary":"Chris keeps improving MRR on Upcase, patches a Javascript problem with a Javascript solution, and implements benefit focused text on course descriptions. On Formkeep, Ben discovers a flaw in an A/B test, deals with squirrely payment code, and prepares for a conference talk.","date_published":"2016-04-11T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/5b4fe8b7-c105-4cde-9727-dd2bb71f0f02.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":46703174,"duration_in_seconds":2915}]},{"id":"add4a26e-0954-4b46-adc3-c5f537c418fa","title":"188: I Have a Spreadsheet!","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/188","content_text":"Ben decides to A/B test pricing, begins grandfathering existing customers to the new tiers, teases new features on Formkeep, and recounts some interesting customer interactions. Meanwhile, Chris drives conversions through e-mail and Twitter, identifies unique customer segments, and brings in more of the thoughtbot voice to Upcase.\n\n\nFormkeep\nUpcase\nVisual Website Optomizer\nSplit Gem\nHoneybadger\nthoughtbot YouTube\n\n\nThank you to Hired for sponsoring this episode!","content_html":"Ben decides to A/B test pricing, begins grandfathering existing customers to the new tiers, teases new features on Formkeep, and recounts some interesting customer interactions. Meanwhile, Chris drives conversions through e-mail and Twitter, identifies unique customer segments, and brings in more of the thoughtbot voice to Upcase.
\n\n\n\nThank you to Hired for sponsoring this episode!
","summary":"Ben decides to A/B test pricing, begins grandfathering existing customers to the new tiers, teases new features on Formkeep, and recounts some interesting customer interactions. Meanwhile, Chris drives conversions through e-mail and Twitter, identifies unique customer segments, and brings in more of the thoughtbot voice to Upcase.","date_published":"2016-04-04T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/67f435f9-482b-42c2-aab6-1f12f082d9a3.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":43799194,"duration_in_seconds":2734}]},{"id":"bdaed9a0-8f98-42bb-8546-39fc6a946c93","title":"187: Missed You!","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/187","content_text":"Chris welcomes a new member to team Upcase, confronts a drop in MRR, and looks forward to increased content production. On Formkeep, Ben introduces tiered pricing and trials, considers tier differentiators, and muses on what next to implement.\n\n\nFormkeep\nUpcase\nZapier\na smart bear\nDesigning the Ideal Bootstrapped Business- Jason Cohen\n","content_html":"Chris welcomes a new member to team Upcase, confronts a drop in MRR, and looks forward to increased content production. On Formkeep, Ben introduces tiered pricing and trials, considers tier differentiators, and muses on what next to implement.
\n\nBen and Chris welcome on Ryan Buckley, co-founder of Scripted, for an honest discussion on the shortcomings, pain-points, and benefits that arise from restructuring a product's focus.
\n\nBen welcomes SaaS growth and customer success pioneer Lincoln Murphy to discuss the true importance of providing value to existing customers and focusing on their success, as every tactic you undertake as a business is predicated on understanding their desired outcome. He also delves into how focusing on customer type is beneficial for both consumers and producers, as well as gives Ben some feedback about Formkeep.
\n\nBen accidentally launches a Vim course, debates a B2B vs B2C focus, and feels out different Formkeep pricing tiers. Chris welcomes back a handful of former subscribers to Upcase, continues to work on content production, and integrates relevant content into broader thoughtbot docs.
\n\nChris converts with email campaigns, lays out a time-table to churn out a ton of content, and tries to analyze a dip in revenue. Meanwhile, Ben tests the definition of what constitutes a "conference", focuses on how to enrich Formkeep for specific use cases, and makes headway on tiered pricing.
\n\n","summary":"Chris converts with email campaigns, lays out a time-table to churn out a ton of content, and tries to analyze a dip in revenue. Meanwhile, Ben tests the definition of what constitutes a \"conference\", focuses on how to enrich Formkeep for specific use cases, and makes headway on tiered pricing.","date_published":"2016-02-22T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/e254e9ff-cfba-409a-9015-d6c89683d8bd.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":47455919,"duration_in_seconds":2962}]},{"id":"df563f9c-7bb6-4845-83e5-5d16bb4ddfcb","title":"182: The Weight of Javascript","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/182","content_text":"Ben finalizes Formkeep's Ember removal, toys with the idea of manual on boarding, and positions himself to begin experimenting with plans and pricing. Meanwhile, Chris deals with credit card fraud, too many inodes on Upcase's server, and finishes the changes required to offer free videos.\n\n\nUpcase\nFormkeep\nBarbell Investment Strategy\nDesigning Forms That Convert\nFree Gitsh Video from The Weekly Iteration\nWhat is 2.5 * 26?\n","content_html":"Ben finalizes Formkeep's Ember removal, toys with the idea of manual on boarding, and positions himself to begin experimenting with plans and pricing. Meanwhile, Chris deals with credit card fraud, too many inodes on Upcase's server, and finishes the changes required to offer free videos.
\n\nChris talks with growth expert Brian Balfour on starting and sustaining SaaS business, and his team's approach to addressing growth issues.
\n\nChris gets a surprise while reviewing Upcase's Q4 profit & loss statement, gains some insight into e-mail marketing, wrestles with the added complexity of adding github auth-to-access, and brainstorms new community-driven projects. Meanwhile, Ben gets his hands dirty with Formkeep's Ember removal, is tempted by the siren's call of distraction, and gets an open review from the Bootstrapped Web podcast. Also, Chris does a live user-test of Formkeep's new user activation flow.
\n\nBen resolves to cut back on dashboard checkins, makes progress on Formkeep's Ember extraction, and struggles with product-market fit. Meanwhile, Chris tackles some analytics issues, opens up Upcase landing pages from behind the paywall to improve marketing and SEO, and steps up his marketing and social-media game.
\n\nBen and Chris both struggle with cancelations coming into the new year, Formkeep continues to strip out Ember and focus on content marketing, and Upcase resolves a major issue in the exercise system and improves the checkout flow.
\n\nChris tracks new members after the release of the new Mastering Git course from Upcase, launches a drip e-mail campaign to attract more members, and focuses on increased content output. Ben continues removing Ember from Formkeep, rethinks an activation sequence A/B test, conducts user tests to improve the checkout flow, and adopts a mindset of continuous improvement.
\n\nAs Ben transitions from Upcase to Formkeep, so too will the podcast transition to an open discussion around growing thoughtbot's internal projects and maintaining them as businesses, highlighting our hopes, experiments, tactics, failures, and success along the way! Today Ben and new co-host Chris discuss finding that magic feature or metric around which to structure pricing, selecting the right framework for your app, and customer acquisition tactics.
\n\nBen talks with Ashe Dryden about ways to approach diversity in the tech community from workplace, conference, and personal perspectives.
\n\nBen and Laura Roeder, founder of Edgar, chat about anthropomorphizing your brand to build better engagement, going the extra step to care about customer success, and some tips for social media marketing best practices.
\n\nThis episode is brought to you by Formkeep: Form endpoints for designers and developers
\n\nBen talks with Hiten Shah, co-founder of Crazy Egg and Kissmetrics, on the value of helping others, frameworks for a better life, being an infovore, and tips for finding a successful product niche.
\n\nBen and Eric Normand of LispCast and PurelyFunctional.tv talk about the pros and cons of Haskell and Clojure, empathize on some of the pain points of running an educational coding platform, and hypothesize on how the next great programming "killer demo" will present itself.
\n\nBen talks with Steli Efti, CEO and Co-founder of Close, on maintaining energy and passion in speaking, why engineers make great sales people (and how they can be even better), and managing your emotions to be more productive and happy.
\n\nChad talks with C. Todd Lombardo & Trace Wax about their new book, co-authored with Richard Banfield, Design Sprint: A Practical Guidebook for Building Great Digital Products, as well as the process and benefits of design sprints.
\n\nBrenda talks with Sara Chipps on the desire to educate in code, her inspiration to work on hardware, and the troubles of manufacturing.
\n\nChad Pytel and Laila Winner welcome Star Simpson to discuss PLIBMTTBHGATY (Programming Languages I’ve Been Meaning To Try But Haven’t Gotten Around To Yet), fostering community through meet-ups, and the finer points of taco delivery via drone.
\n\nBen talks with thoughtbot designer Brenda Storer on fitting both development and design in her job title, tips for public speaking, and introduces a new change to the show.
\n\nGet to know your new sometimes-host better!
\n\n","summary":"Ben talks with thoughtbot designer Brenda Storer on fitting both development and design in her job title, tips for public speaking, and introduces a new change to the show.","date_published":"2015-10-12T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/199241a4-c041-4b63-a6c0-5ca9196c79eb.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":26536472,"duration_in_seconds":2206}]},{"id":"e433ff1c-7091-4013-834b-0ff9ff5b23ea","title":"166: Refactoring Health Care (John Norman)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/166","content_text":"Ben talks with John Norman about his process and modified approach to the delivery, payment, and tech of modern managed health care. They also touch on age bias in the programming world, living a purpose-driven life, and dealing with startup growth.\n\n\nIora Health\n\"The Hot Spotters\"- Atul Gawande\nThe Healing of America- T.R. Reid\nWellnessFX\nAgile Manifesto\nHIPAA\nBeing Mortal- Atul Gawande\n\"How to Scale a Development Team\"- Adam Wiggins\n\"The Double Diamond Model of Product Definition and Design\"- Peter Merholz\nJohn on Twitter\n","content_html":"Ben talks with John Norman about his process and modified approach to the delivery, payment, and tech of modern managed health care. They also touch on age bias in the programming world, living a purpose-driven life, and dealing with startup growth.
\n\nBen talks with Adam & Jerod of The Changelog Podcast to discuss their personal interviewing modalities, doing full-time media creation, and a new video project aimed to explore the actual people behind your programming heroes.
\n\nBen talks with Mirabai Knight about the technology and uses of modern stenography; including using steno with Vim, and her work on Plover, the open source Steno engine.
\n\nBen talks with Nadia Odunayo about giving non-technical conference talks and full-time pairing.
\n\nBen is joined by Brinkley Warren of MegaBots Inc. to discuss the history, build, and strategy behind the MegaBot Mk II, USA's entrant in next years giant robot duel!
\n\nBen and Jules Coleman, founder of Hassle, discuss staying close to the codebase while in a more managerial role, the challenges of rapid growth, and the value of internalizing feedback.
\n\n","summary":"Ben and Jules Coleman, founder of Hassle, discuss staying close to the codebase while in a more managerial role, the challenges of rapid growth, and the value of internalizing feedback.","date_published":"2015-08-31T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/dd4cb1cb-4626-4b39-a157-be858cf04113.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":20674595,"duration_in_seconds":1718}]},{"id":"8c6bdeb8-0e54-4b20-b4a2-5b577bea1246","title":"160: Unfollowing the Leader (Drew Neil)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/160","content_text":"Ben and Drew Neil discuss freeing up Vim's leader key, the value of visual learning, and using GitHub to crowd source closed captions.\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:\n\n\nDigital Ocean: Simple and fast cloud hosting, built for developers. Use the code GiantRobots for a $10 credit towards your new account.\nRetronyms: Make music whenever, wherever. Tap your inspiration and remember to keep it fresh. Visit to get a free download of AudioCopy.\n\n\nLinks & Show Notes\n\n\nFollow My Leader\nspeeddating.vim\nrails.vim\nunimpaired.vim\nsurround.vim\nVimcasts\nPractical Vim\nPeer to Peer\nVimcasts #12: Modal editing: undo, redo and repeat\nNeovim\nDrew On Twitter\n","content_html":"Ben and Drew Neil discuss freeing up Vim's leader key, the value of visual learning, and using GitHub to crowd source closed captions.
\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:
\n\n![Steno Alphabet Chart](\"http://stenoknight.com/plover/plover-alphabetical.jpg\"){kind=link}
GiantRobots for a $10 credit towards your new account.Links & Show Notes
\n\nBen and fellow thoughtbotter Mike Burns take time out of their Summer Summit schedule to chat about launching offices, the art of classical code, and why Mike no longer loves Haskell.
\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:
\n\nGiantRobots for a $10 credit towards your new account.Links & Show Notes
\n\n","summary":"Ben and fellow thoughtbotter Mike Burns take time out of their Summer Summit schedule to chat about launching offices, the art of classical code, and why Mike no longer loves Haskell.\r\n\r\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by Digital Ocean. Simple and fast cloud hosting, built for developers. Use the code GiantRobots for a $10 credit towards your new account.","date_published":"2015-08-17T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/7df7ddcd-4525-4a96-a56b-ae5d116b722e.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":16647241,"duration_in_seconds":1382}]},{"id":"9e9184cb-a488-40cb-904d-64368ec1991d","title":"158: Producing...Stuff (Thom Obarski)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/158","content_text":"Ben is joined by trepidatious producer, Thom Obarski, to talk all things media at thoughtbot, compare working in tech to entertainment environments, and bestow some beginner advice on starting one's own podcast.\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:\n\n\nDigital Ocean: Simple and fast cloud hosting, built for developers. Use the code GiantRobots for a $10 credit towards your new account.\n\n\nLinks & Show Notes\n\n\nLevelator\nBen, transcribed & annotated\nSeth Godin Episode of Giant Robots\nOriginal Producer Position Posting\nAcitve thoughtbot Podcasts\nThom on IMDB\nthoughtbot Youtube (Warning, a welcome video autoplays if you're not already a subscriber)\nBen's first blooper reel\nRobots at Play Video Playlist\nThom's Investment Time\nWistia\nWista on Giant Robots\nMou\nPodcasting for $0 Down- Submitted talk proposal\nPodclear\nThom on Twitter\n","content_html":"Ben is joined by trepidatious producer, Thom Obarski, to talk all things media at thoughtbot, compare working in tech to entertainment environments, and bestow some beginner advice on starting one's own podcast.
\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:
\n\nGiantRobots for a $10 credit towards your new account.Links & Show Notes
\n\nBen is joined by Tom Stuart to talk about incorporating computer science topics into Ruby, his process of preparing talks, enriching your development career with a bit of computer science knowledge, and gushing about how amazing computers truly are.
\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:
\n\nGiantRobots for a $10 credit towards your new account.Links & Show Notes
\n\nBen is joined by Steve Tooke to discuss the importance of communication, testing, and building Cucumber 2.
\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:
\n\nGiantRobots for a $10 credit towards your new account.Links & Show Notes
\n\nBen welcomes Joe Ferris, thoughtbot's CTO, to discuss design parity within the company, inversion of control, and solving all the world's problems with monads.
\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by Digital Ocean. Simple and fast cloud hosting, built for developers. Use the code GiantRobots for a $10 credit towards your new account.
This episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:
\n\nGiantRobots for a $10 credit towards your new account.Links & Show Notes
\n\nBen and Samir Talwar of Codurance discuss the appeal of functional programming, mob programming, and a different take on conferences.
\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:
\n\nGiantRobots for a $10 credit towards your new account.Links & Show Notes
\n\nAs Giant Robots nears its 3 year anniversary, Ben welcomes back Chad Pytel to reflect on the highs and lows of the previous year at thoughtbot.
\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:
\n\nGiantRobots for a $10 credit towards your new account.Links & Show Notes
\n\nBen welcomes Denise Yu and Rosa Fox of Codebar to discuss the importance of fostering community, mentoring tips, and more.
\n\n","summary":"Ben welcomes Denise Yu and Rosa Fox of Codebar to discuss the importance of fostering community, mentoring tips, and more.","date_published":"2015-06-29T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/1fab0499-55c7-4c3c-9dc5-3aee7f30bb31.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":21471357,"duration_in_seconds":1785}]},{"id":"c0f03a48-c6d0-42e5-868d-ab3802d76cbe","title":"151: Open By Default (Aidan Feldman)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/151","content_text":"Ben discusses consulting and open source from within the government, as well as choosing the right clients, and the value of mentorship, with Aidan Feldman of 18F.\n\n\n18F\nHacker Hours\nOpen Source Community\nAidan on Twitter\n","content_html":"Ben discusses consulting and open source from within the government, as well as choosing the right clients, and the value of mentorship, with Aidan Feldman of 18F.
\n\n","summary":"Ben discusses consulting and open source from within the government, as well as choosing the right clients, and the value of mentorship, with Aidan Feldman of 18F.","date_published":"2015-06-15T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/5e13342d-7703-480f-a102-db421f0cdf61.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":20892379,"duration_in_seconds":1737}]},{"id":"db081e37-bfff-453a-b0aa-69913c75f974","title":"150: Don't Screw it Up (Derek Prior)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/150","content_text":"Ben talks with fellow thoughtbotter Derek Prior on conference speaking, code review, and podcasting.\n\n\nImplementing a Strong Code-Review Culture- Derek's RailsConf 2015 Talk\nHow to Talk to Developers\nGiant Robots on Genius\nThe Bike Shed Podcast\nDerek on Twitter\n","content_html":"Ben talks with fellow thoughtbotter Derek Prior on conference speaking, code review, and podcasting.
\n\nBen talks with fellow thoughtbotter Chris Toomey on networking, mentorship, React.js, and sustainable pace.
\n\nBen talks with Rebecca Miller-Webster, Managing Director of thoughtbot Chicago, on beginners contributing to open-source, organizing conferences, and cultivating a more inclusive culture.
\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:
\n\nGiantRobots for a $10 credit towards your new account.Links & Show Notes
\n\nBen welcomes on Saron Yitbarek to talk about creating communities that foster learning and niceness; as well as getting comfortable with being uncomfortable, and how confronting that discomfort can ultimately lead to success.
\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:
\n\nGiantRobots for a $10 credit towards your new account.Links & Show Notes
\n\nBen and Shelby Kelly discuss teaching at a coding bootcamp and the future of junior-developer programs. Stick around till the end to catch a sample of her Rocky Mountain Ruby rap!
\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:
\n\nGiantRobots for a $10 credit towards your new account.Links & Show Notes
\n\n","summary":"Ben and Shelby Kelly discuss teaching at a coding bootcamp and the future of junior-developer programs. Stick around till the end to catch a sample of her Rocky Mountain Ruby rap!\r\n\r\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by Digital Ocean. Simple and fast cloud hosting, built for developers. Use the code `GiantRobots` for a $10 credit towards your new account.","date_published":"2015-05-11T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/293d98e4-68dd-43b7-a9bc-23d28d64df47.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":20849747,"duration_in_seconds":1733}]},{"id":"2042c8d6-d64c-44a5-a63a-5765f561ce9d","title":"145: YOLO! _push to master_ (Sam Phippen)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/145","content_text":"Ben talks to Sam Phippen on working on the RSpec core team, new features in 3.3, tips for contributing to open-source, and his favorite parts of Rails.\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:\n\n\nDigital Ocean: Simple and fast cloud hosting, built for developers. Use the code GiantRobots for a $10 credit towards your new account.\n\n\nLinks & Show Notes\n\n\nrspec-rerun\nSidekiq\nKyle Kingsbury's Blog\nSam on Twitter\n","content_html":"Ben talks to Sam Phippen on working on the RSpec core team, new features in 3.3, tips for contributing to open-source, and his favorite parts of Rails.
\n\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by:
\n\nGiantRobots for a $10 credit towards your new account.Links & Show Notes
\n\n","summary":"Ben talks to Sam Phippen on working on the RSpec core team, new features in 3.3, tips for contributing to open-source, and his favorite parts of Rails.\r\n\r\nThis episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by Digital Ocean. Simple and fast cloud hosting, built for developers. Use the code `GiantRobots` for a $10 credit towards your new account.","date_published":"2015-05-04T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/39883b0e-7340-433a-a1b7-552b156c11d2.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":31489525,"duration_in_seconds":2620}]},{"id":"b2578e97-0d66-4200-980a-8fb8c2786b09","title":"144: Finding a New Way (Pam Selle)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/144","content_text":"Ben talks to Pam Selle on the importance of self-impossed structure, voice coding, and living with RSI.\n\n\nRecurse Center\nStructure and Interpretation of Computer Programs\nMacVimSpeak\nHands-Free Coding\nKeyboardio\nIt's Not Carpal Tunnel Syndrome!\nChoosing a JavaScript Framework\nPam on Twitter\nTuring-Incomplete Podcast\n\n\nHaymakers For Hope: Ben's Charity Boxing Match","content_html":"Ben talks to Pam Selle on the importance of self-impossed structure, voice coding, and living with RSI.
\n\nHaymakers For Hope: Ben's Charity Boxing Match
","summary":"Ben talks to Pam Selle on the importance of self-imposed structure, voice coding, and living with RSI.\r\n","date_published":"2015-04-27T00:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/0626999f-2bb1-4f22-8a78-2a088f2f7156.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":24757143,"duration_in_seconds":2059}]},{"id":"9beb8585-06a9-4a52-834e-6d2d373bc068","title":"143: Keep an Open Mind (Carin Meier)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/143","content_text":"Ben talks with Carin Meier on the writer's process, how programming relates to the arts, and the importance of a graduated and immersive approach to learning.\n\n\nLiving Clojure\nMathematica\nEase into 5k\n4Clojure\nWonderland Katas\nHitchhiker's Guide to Clojure\nParrot AR Drones\nHow Clojure Saved My Chickens\nCarin on Twitter\n","content_html":"Ben talks with Carin Meier on the writer's process, how programming relates to the arts, and the importance of a graduated and immersive approach to learning.
\n\nBen talks with Justin Gitlin on changing the experience of a social media platform, as well as shaping game dev to art (and vice versa).
\n\nBen sits down with therapist/writer/podcaster/speaker/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu champion Georgia Dow to discuss the value of new experiences, the advantages of private mentorship, and living life to its fullest.
\n\nBen talks to Sir John Hargrave, CEO of Media Shower, about his new book Mind Hacking on the power of reprogramming one's thoughts to maintain new habits, and innovations to the traditional publishing model.
\n\nBen talks to Mike Brittain, VP of Engineering at Etsy, on interacting with the development community, strides in diversity practices, the pros/cons of an open office, and the difficulties in transitioning from engineering to management.
\n\nBen talks to Craig Andera, developer at Cognitect, on his latest 20% time project, how Clojure gets made, and driving immutability into a database.
\n\nBen talks with Pat Brisbin on his new book, and the future of Haskell at thoughtbot.
\n\nChad officially welcomes Ben back to the podcast, discuses the employer/employee ideology that can facilitate a successful sabbatical, and reveals some exclusives on the future of thoughtbot.
\n\nChad talks with Ben Arent, product manager at Rackspace, on the pros/cons of app acquisition, as well as their favorite Sass tools.
\n\nChad talks with Paul Dowman, founder of OK GROW!, on replacing Rails with Meteor, and how martial arts has made him a better developer.
\n\nChad talks with Matt Aimonetti, co-founder of Splice, on remote worker strategies, fundraising, and his vision for the future of digital musical collaboration.
\n\n","summary":"Chad talks with Matt Aimonetti, co-founder of Splice, on remote worker strategies, fundraising, and his vision for the future of digital musical collaboration.","date_published":"2015-02-09T00:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/8543df59-1964-47aa-bc0e-649d5e9a6af8.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":16690160,"duration_in_seconds":2080}]},{"id":"9bf96ab8-0a7c-44ef-954a-573740bfc05d","title":"132: Story Tellers (Adarsh Pandit, Kyle Fiedler)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/132","content_text":"Chad talks with fellow thoughtbotters Adarsh Pandit and Kyle Fiedler on the pros and cons of stories, story points, and job stories.\n\n\nAdarsh’s tweets on points\nConverting to Jobs Stories\nPivotal Tracker\nBasecamp\nLighthouse\nAgile Manifesto\nReplacing The User Story With The Job Story- Alan Klement\nTrello\nthoughtbot’s research board\n","content_html":"Chad talks with fellow thoughtbotters Adarsh Pandit and Kyle Fiedler on the pros and cons of stories, story points, and job stories.
\n\nChad talks with Irene Ros, data visualization practice lead at Bocoup, about her pursuit of making data visualization function in a social context.
\n\nChad & developer Joanne Cheng break down thoughtbot's statistical year in review!
\n\nChad talks with Ian Logan, an Engineering Manager at Airbnb, on the challenges, ideology, implementation, and future of their payments system.
\n\nChad talks with thoughtbot CMO Dan Croak about our content marketing strategy, managing the flow of new media, and the origin of our growth team.
\n\nJeff Smith talks to Meng To, author of Design + Code about the blurring line between developers and designers, learning tools to better communicate, and the difficulties of planing a world-wide workshop tour.
\n\n","summary":"Jeff Smith talks to Meng To, author of Design + Code about the blurring line between developers and designers, learning tools to better communicate, and the difficulties of planing a world-wide workshop tour.","date_published":"2014-12-22T07:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/6f6c87e2-22a9-40b0-b318-fb1f66558a4c.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":19091108,"duration_in_seconds":2380}]},{"id":"58e3f70b-e080-4363-a9cb-681d4d0372a5","title":"126: Log In to Your Space (Zach Dunn)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/126","content_text":"Chad talks to Zach Dunn, CPO of Robin, about the future of smart spaces, working with family, and when to shift your company's scope.\n\n\nRobin\nOne Mighty Roar\neither\n2013 Boston 25 Under 25\nRobin: The Boy Wonder\nBathroom Ocupancy Proof of Concept\nZach on Twitter\n","content_html":"Chad talks to Zach Dunn, CPO of Robin, about the future of smart spaces, working with family, and when to shift your company's scope.
\n\nChad talks to Adarsh Pandit, thoughtbot SF Managing Director & host of the Reboot podcast, about his personal journey which inspired our newest show.
\n\nChad talks to Scott Ford, founder & COO of Corgibytes, about the business of software remodeling/retrofitting, and finding value and beauty in old code.
\n\n","summary":"Chad talks to Scott Ford, founder & COO of Corgibytes, about the business of software remodeling/retrofitting, and finding value and beauty in old code.","date_published":"2014-11-23T20:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/2222a5ea-3a65-4c13-abe5-c93f57400896.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":15867901,"duration_in_seconds":1977}]},{"id":"55c8f4eb-9fad-469d-b465-67723e784e26","title":"123: Don't Call It a Codecation (Chris Hunt)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/123","content_text":"Ben & Chris Hunt catch up on their latest conference talks, podcasts, and things accomplished on their recent coding retreat.\n\n\nService Oriented Architecture at Square\nSolving the Rubik's Cube in 20 Seconds\nTrailmix\nTuring School\nSpanulate Podcast\nYou Should Take a Codecation\nCodcation on reddit\nHealthy Hacker Podcast\ntrailmix repo\nChris on Twitter\n","content_html":"Ben & Chris Hunt catch up on their latest conference talks, podcasts, and things accomplished on their recent coding retreat.
\n\nBritt Ballard leads this roundtable discussion on home-growing your own conference and their experiences, from theme and logo selection to scheduling guests and venues, turning Keep Ruby Weird from a dream into a reality.
\n\nGuest-Ben Chad Pytel talks with Allison House about maintaining personal growth while freelancing, and her approach to harnessing your capacity to learn.
\n\nBen talks with Tom Lehman, creator of Genius, about the power of honesty in corporate culture, and navigating the mores of discussing salary.
\n\nBen talks with Pete Hunt, formerly of Facebook & Instagram, on React and what makes this unique JavaScript library tick, as well as shifting from a technical to a business focused mindset.
\n\nBen talks with Dan Martell, CEO and founder of Clarity, about self-actualization in business, how life is affected by those around which one surrounds themselves and the value of staying outside one's comfort zone.
\n\nBen talks with Will Sulinski, founder of Pistol Lake, on translating lessons learned from the tech sector into success in the fashion industry.
\n\n","summary":"Ben talks with Will Sulinski, founder of Pistol Lake, on translating lessons learned from the tech sector into success in the fashion industry.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2014-09-21T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/b3d3a53e-58b8-488c-af3c-a8c17645c31f.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":13367898,"duration_in_seconds":1647}]},{"id":"ee33ba0f-56b3-49c1-bb4f-db5988684b01","title":"116: A Model Jellyfish (Carl Smith)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/116","content_text":"Ben talks with nGen Works founder Carl Smith about alternatives to a \"flat\" structure, remote management & community building.\n\n\nnGen Works\nBizCraft Podcast\nTechnically Simple Podcast\nDrive by Daniel Pink\nDPM Radio\nThe Bureau of Digital Affairs\nQCat\nCarl on Twitter\n","content_html":"Ben talks with nGen Works founder Carl Smith about alternatives to a "flat" structure, remote management & community building.
\n\nBen talks with Brandon Bloom about finding the right tool for the job, there being too many objects in OO Programing and the importance for a full spectrum of options, regardless of the choice.
\n\nBen talks with Gumroad grower Ryan Delk about standing out from your peers by adding value before you ask for value.
\n\nBen and Rob Walling, founder of Drip and HitTail, discuss engaging your audience, the path to building new habits and the need to create.
\n\nBen talks to developer Joanne Cheng about lessons learned from the conference circuit, as well as the subject of her latest conf talk, Data-Driven-Documents within JavaScript, and trends in dashboard design.
\n\nBen talks with Chris Granger, creator of Light Table, about building a better IDE and envisioning a world where all programming happens inside a database and anyone can do it.
\n\nThis week Ben talks with former thoughtbotter, and creator of Is It Christmas, Eric Mill about the power of blogging, the personal empowerment offered by the internet and the role of government in the digital age.
\n\nBen delves behind the scenes of a VC firm with Alex Taussig of Highland Capital.
\n\n","summary":"Ben delves behind the scenes of a VC firm with Alex Taussig of Highland Capital.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2014-07-27T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/3d18df8b-287d-4030-b153-c4e0270d15a7.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":35233791,"duration_in_seconds":2178}]},{"id":"6321f4d1-50a8-4647-b78b-be85e3ab26ca","title":"108: Picking Your Obsession (Brett Van Zuiden)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/108","content_text":"Ben talks to Brett Van Zuiden, founder of Filepicker, about the importance of finding your specialization and passion in your industry, as well as his experiences in Y Combinator.\n\n\nFilepicker\nScaling Instagram\nIFTTT\nAll-TIME 100 Novels\nY Combinator\nBrett on Twitter\n","content_html":"Ben talks to Brett Van Zuiden, founder of Filepicker, about the importance of finding your specialization and passion in your industry, as well as his experiences in Y Combinator.
\n\n","summary":"Ben talks to Brett Van Zuiden, founder of Filepicker, about the importance of finding your specialization and passion in your industry, as well as his experiences in Y Combinator.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2014-07-20T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/d92794f4-a498-4cf3-8242-c1de9cf311f7.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":37544949,"duration_in_seconds":2298}]},{"id":"59740c1f-cde3-4b0e-b28e-5958f1c8a325","title":"107: The Best Secrets Kept (Sara Haider)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/107","content_text":"Ben talks to Sarah Haider, Android lead at Secret, about anonymity in social media, her work with Girls Who Code and Android Development.\n\n\nGirls Who Code\nSecret\nHound\nSara on Twitter\n","content_html":"Ben talks to Sarah Haider, Android lead at Secret, about anonymity in social media, her work with Girls Who Code and Android Development.
\n\nBen is joined by fellow thoughtbotters Alex & Galen to break down their product design sprint workflow.
\n\nBen welcomes Marc-André Cournoyer of Coded Inc. to discuss self-marketing and sustaining info-product platforms.
\n\nOn this weeks Giant Robots Ben welcomes Adam Wiggins, Heroku co-founder and former CTO, to join as more of a guest host than guest. They discuss team size/structure, project scalability, the benefits of working abroad & self-maintenance best practices.
\n\nGiant Robots welcome Adam & Chris of Vehikl who inquire about project selection / scheduling, portfolio building & customer-facing.
\n\n","summary":"Giant Robots welcome Adam & Chris of Vehikl who inquire about project selection / scheduling, portfolio building & customer-facing.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2014-06-15T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/dc06dfba-5336-42cb-a007-79d329732a3a.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":36054391,"duration_in_seconds":2190}]},{"id":"94cf8741-1a00-4374-bbcd-9ca57f0467f0","title":"102: Put It Out To The World (Peter Cooper)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/102","content_text":"Ben sits down with Peter Cooper, of Cooper Press, on his evolution from blogger to published author and publisher.\n\n\nCooper Press\nRuby Inside\nRuby on Rails vs PHP video\nFluent Conf\n/r/lifeprotips\nPeter on Twitter\n","content_html":"Ben sits down with Peter Cooper, of Cooper Press, on his evolution from blogger to published author and publisher.
\n\nBen is joined by Alex & Jatin, recent graduates of the first thoughtbot / Metis Ruby on Rails Bootcamp, to talk about the process, experience and feedback on their path to becoming junior developers.
\n\n","summary":"Ben is joined by Alex & Jatin, recent graduates of the first thoughtbot / Metis Ruby on Rails Bootcamp, to talk about the process, experience and feedback on their path to becoming junior developers.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2014-06-01T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/6522d180-51bd-4a93-87a4-318bee6ab195.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":18813138,"duration_in_seconds":2328}]},{"id":"a8dc2dfa-3b9c-4712-91eb-c398f76ad407","title":"100: Adequately Industrious (Aaron Patterson)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/100","content_text":"On our special 100th episode Aaron Patterson joins Ben from RailsConf to talk AdequateRecord, frustrations in software, bulk meat discounts, the finer nuances of cat-naming and the importance of scientific thinking in web development.\n\n\nAdequateRecord\nChicken Scheme\nAaron's RailsConf Closing Keynote\nAaron on Twitter\n","content_html":"On our special 100th episode Aaron Patterson joins Ben from RailsConf to talk AdequateRecord, frustrations in software, bulk meat discounts, the finer nuances of cat-naming and the importance of scientific thinking in web development.
\n\n","summary":"On our special 100th episode Aaron Patterson joins Ben from RailsConf to talk AdequateRecord, frustrations in software, bulk meat discounts, the finer nuances of cat-naming and the importance of scientific thinking in web development.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2014-05-25T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/63690b23-8b6c-4cf0-a349-af5bc9b73d96.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":44625345,"duration_in_seconds":2731}]},{"id":"075a376b-6261-43a7-94cb-38dd2de51938","title":"99: You Are Not Alone (Greg Baugues)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/99","content_text":"From RailsConf, Ben & Greg Baugues of Twilio discuss how mental illness affects the development community and the importance of, as well as resources to, proper treatment.\n\n\nBusiness of Software Video\nDevelopers and Depression book\nDevpressed Forum\nOpen Sourcing Mental Illness\nprompt Campaign\nGreg on Twitter\n","content_html":"From RailsConf, Ben & Greg Baugues of Twilio discuss how mental illness affects the development community and the importance of, as well as resources to, proper treatment.
\n\nFrom RailsConf, Ben talks to Chris Hunt of Github about techniques for enhancing spacial memory, competitive personalities, the coffee infamy of the Pacific Northwest and Clojure testing.
\n\n","summary":"From RailsConf, Ben talks to Chris Hunt of Github about techniques for enhancing spacial memory, competitive personalities, the coffee infamy of the Pacific Northwest and Clojure testing.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2014-05-11T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/39bf052d-d220-4880-96f1-e3c7dc3abd9f.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":23838260,"duration_in_seconds":1191}]},{"id":"3a209e88-53cc-4f6e-9509-3310d4c83660","title":"97: Railing Against Rails (Ernie Miller)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/97","content_text":"Live from RailsConf Ben & Ernie Miller explore his \"Curmudgeon\" talk, modules and the importance of nuance.\n\n\nTDD is Dead\nAppriss: VINE\nErnie on Twitter\n","content_html":"Live from RailsConf Ben & Ernie Miller explore his "Curmudgeon" talk, modules and the importance of nuance.
\n\n","summary":"Live from RailsConf Ben & Ernie Miller explore his \"Curmudgeon\" talk, modules and the importance of nuance.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2014-05-04T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/93f37a68-470e-4654-a925-f886500eaa26.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":25247970,"duration_in_seconds":1538}]},{"id":"b3179129-6e6c-41a4-9ef8-d53cec45d66f","title":"96: Business is Hard (Jeff Casimir)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/96","content_text":"Live from RailsConf, Ben talks to Executive Director of The Turing School Jeff Casimir on Conf-stress, the lack of jobs in open source and the challenges of learning to run a business.\n\n\nTuring School of Software & Design\nHeartbleed Bug\nThe E-Myth Revisited\n","content_html":"Live from RailsConf, Ben talks to Executive Director of The Turing School Jeff Casimir on Conf-stress, the lack of jobs in open source and the challenges of learning to run a business.
\n\n","summary":"Live from RailsConf, Ben talks to Executive Director of The Turing School Jeff Casimir on Conf-stress, the lack of jobs in open source and the challenges of learning to run a business.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2014-04-27T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/40b8dad7-e4f8-4637-960f-0b565606295c.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":34621132,"duration_in_seconds":2112}]},{"id":"c82a48f6-68db-4aad-86f9-fca345a82d56","title":"95: Making Time (Chas Emerick)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/95","content_text":"This week Ben sits down with Chas Emerick to discuss his latest venture, The Quilt Project, start up philosophies and the importance of balanced time management.\n\n\n100% Time\nClojure Programming: Practical Lisp for the Java World\nThe Quilt Project\nPDF TextStream\nRich Hickey's Ant Simulator\nVon Neumann architecture\nheaven forfend\n","content_html":"This week Ben sits down with Chas Emerick to discuss his latest venture, The Quilt Project, start up philosophies and the importance of balanced time management.
\n\nBen is joined by Diana & Jessie of thoughtbot San Francisco to discuss their latest book, iOS on Rails, the concept of releasing a book in Beta and the importance of apprenticeships to emerging junior developers.
\n\nOn this weeks show Ben talks to David Nolen, Rails & JavaScript developer for the NY Times, about being a steward of ClojureScript, functional programming, the advantages of immutable values and Om.
\n\nBen and Ryan Hoover, co-creator of Product Hunt, talk revenue models, the value of blogging, diversification of skills, and tiny steps towards major change.
\n\nThis week on Giant Robots, Ben talks to Rich Thornett, Co-Founder of Dribbble, about the formation and criticisms of the company, the role of product design and remote team management.
\n\nBen talks to George Brocklehurst & Mike Burns of thoughtbot's Stockholm office on creating and distributing gitsh, an interactive shell for Git, and why it shouldn't be a Ruby gem.
\n\n","summary":"Ben talks to George Brocklehurst & Mike Burns of thoughtbot's Stockholm office on creating and distributing gitsh, an interactive shell for Git, and why it shouldn't be a Ruby gem.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2014-03-16T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/07b6567c-24c7-4f8b-b394-d8e6c0a6ce1c.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":22177759,"duration_in_seconds":1351}]},{"id":"77a7f08d-7cc5-4281-b4b9-1a3ec3e6d52b","title":"89: Moving Beyond The Wheel (Mahmoud Abdelkader)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/89","content_text":"This week on Giant Robots, Mahmoud Abdelkader of Balanced joins Ben to talk the priorities in ones career trajectory, the role of a successful CTO, and the benefits of radically open transparency.\n\n\nBalanced\nWhat Does Balanced Do?\nBalanced Github\nBalanced Cookbooks\nMahmoud on Twitter\n","content_html":"This week on Giant Robots, Mahmoud Abdelkader of Balanced joins Ben to talk the priorities in ones career trajectory, the role of a successful CTO, and the benefits of radically open transparency.
\n\n","summary":"This week on Giant Robots, Mahmoud Abdelkader of Balanced joins Ben to talk the priorities in ones career trajectory, the role of a successful CTO, and the benefits of radically open transparency.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2014-03-09T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/13f6668b-8b9f-4089-9756-becde59defce.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":35109043,"duration_in_seconds":2123}]},{"id":"eda759df-3f9a-490b-b4ea-bb3085e056f2","title":"88: Prospering Communities (Kyle Bragger)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/88","content_text":"This week Ben Talks with Kyle Bragger of Elepath, Inc on the nature of online community building, advertising vs subscription revenue models and the importance of continued creative output (and actually releasing it to the world).\n\n\nElepath, Inc\nExposure\nMauerpark Karaoke\nForrst\nDrew Wilson\n","content_html":"This week Ben Talks with Kyle Bragger of Elepath, Inc on the nature of online community building, advertising vs subscription revenue models and the importance of continued creative output (and actually releasing it to the world).
\n\n","summary":"This week Ben Talks with Kyle Bragger of Elepath, Inc on the nature of online community building, advertising vs subscription revenue models and the importance of continued creative output (and actually releasing it to the world).\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2014-03-02T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/2277ad24-91d0-4d50-8cc7-84e486853cbe.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":28099881,"duration_in_seconds":1705}]},{"id":"43662f33-2e84-4c18-881b-59b314566c39","title":"87: Monitoring the Bathrooms (Tony DiPasquale)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/87","content_text":"This week on Giant Robots, Ben chats with Tony DiPasquale on utilizing Arduino engineering to solve 0th world problems.\n\n\nArduino Home Page\nOriginal Bathroom Occupancy Proof of Concept Breakdown\nFull Low Power Custom Arduino Sensor Board Instructions!\n","content_html":"This week on Giant Robots, Ben chats with Tony DiPasquale on utilizing Arduino engineering to solve 0th world problems.
\n\nIn this week's episode, we're joined by Peter Reinhardt, Co-founder and CEO of Segment.io. Ben and Peter discuss the product, their tech stack, the companies big pivot to Segment.io, their growth and future plans. They also discuss leaving MIT to start a company, getting along with your co-founders, nuclear reactors, hiking, and much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @reinpk on twitter.
","summary":"In this week's episode, we're joined by Peter Reinhardt, Co-founder and CEO of Segment.io. Ben and Peter discuss the product, their tech stack, the companies big pivot to Segment.io, their growth and future plans. They also discuss leaving MIT to start a company, getting along with your co-founders, nuclear reactors, hiking, and much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2014-02-16T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/5940f797-2146-4313-b022-1c5d8059aa46.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":21775961,"duration_in_seconds":1310}]},{"id":"996efdce-b836-490d-be91-6dc39579c0e2","title":"85: I Want These Ideas To Be Free (Max Temkin)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/85","content_text":"This week, Ben is joined by Max Temkin, creator of Cards Against Humanity and Humans vs. Zombies. Max talks about his success with Cards Against Humanity and his feelings of impostor syndrome. He talks about some of his other projects including his first indie game, Humans vs. Zombies. Most recently Max had a multiplayer PC game published called Samurai Gunn. Max talks about the \"open source\" nature of his games. They discuss money, sustainability, kickstarter, and much more.\n\n\nMaxistentialism\nCards Against Humanity\nHumans vs. Zombies\nSamurai Gunn\nBack to Work: Anxiety's a Goat\nMax's Blog\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @MaxTemkin on twitter.","content_html":"This week, Ben is joined by Max Temkin, creator of Cards Against Humanity and Humans vs. Zombies. Max talks about his success with Cards Against Humanity and his feelings of impostor syndrome. He talks about some of his other projects including his first indie game, Humans vs. Zombies. Most recently Max had a multiplayer PC game published called Samurai Gunn. Max talks about the "open source" nature of his games. They discuss money, sustainability, kickstarter, and much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @MaxTemkin on twitter.
","summary":"This week, Ben is joined by Max Temkin, creator of Cards Against Humanity and Humans vs. Zombies. Max talks about his success with Cards Against Humanity and his feelings of impostor syndrome. He talks about some of his other projects including his first indie game, Humans vs. Zombies. Most recently Max had a multiplayer PC game published called Samurai Gunn. Max talks about the \"open source\" nature of his games. They discuss money, sustainability, kickstarter, and much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2014-02-09T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/e3b85910-ea1e-44d0-8681-936a6fec54f9.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":19488375,"duration_in_seconds":2412}]},{"id":"1050744b-b2b8-405c-98a9-dd01736b019c","title":"84: The Bus Number (Harper Reed)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/84","content_text":"On this week's episode, Ben talks with Harper Reed, former CTO of Threadless, former CTO of Obama for America, and currently CEO of Modest. Harper talks about management and his \"cabal\" of people that he likes to work with. He also discusses his experience on the campaign, healthcare.gov, and procurement laws. When asked about his playbook for success, Harper talks about networking strategies, the use of different languages for different problems, craziness, and much more.\n\n\nHarper Reed\nIf I Knew Then\nWhy the Government Never Gets Tech Right\nHarper's GitHub\nHarper's Blog\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @harper on twitter.","content_html":"On this week's episode, Ben talks with Harper Reed, former CTO of Threadless, former CTO of Obama for America, and currently CEO of Modest. Harper talks about management and his "cabal" of people that he likes to work with. He also discusses his experience on the campaign, healthcare.gov, and procurement laws. When asked about his playbook for success, Harper talks about networking strategies, the use of different languages for different problems, craziness, and much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @harper on twitter.
","summary":"On this week's episode, Ben talks with Harper Reed, former CTO of Threadless, former CTO of Obama for America, and currently CEO of Modest. Harper talks about management and his \"cabal\" of people that he likes to work with. He also discusses his experience on the campaign, healthcare.gov, and procurement laws. When asked about his playbook for success, Harper talks about networking strategies, the use of different languages for different problems, craziness, and much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2014-02-02T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/4925a905-0c99-4896-9ee5-b14846aa51ae.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":22428429,"duration_in_seconds":2780}]},{"id":"d17156e3-4a79-4cf6-8e15-96b13f4b7eea","title":"83: Turning the Tables (Ben Orenstein)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/83","content_text":"On this week's special episode, Chad Pytel turns the tables and interviews host Ben Orenstein. They discuss the process of running the podcast and Ben's roots in programming and computer science. Ben talks about his Vim mastery, how he got into public speaking, and his experiences speaking at RailsConf. This year Ben is organizing the live coding track at RailConf. Ben describes his strategies for learning programming, how he's getting into Clojure, and much more!\n\n\nBen's Blog\nBen's Github\nThe Vim Learning Curve is a Myth\nChad Fowler on the Giant Robots podcast\nHow to Get Your Conference Talk Accepted\nHow to Talk to Developers (Rails Conf 2013)\n4clojure.org\nWellnessFX\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @cpytel on twitter.","content_html":"On this week's special episode, Chad Pytel turns the tables and interviews host Ben Orenstein. They discuss the process of running the podcast and Ben's roots in programming and computer science. Ben talks about his Vim mastery, how he got into public speaking, and his experiences speaking at RailsConf. This year Ben is organizing the live coding track at RailConf. Ben describes his strategies for learning programming, how he's getting into Clojure, and much more!
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @cpytel on twitter.
","summary":"On this week's special episode, Chad Pytel turns the tables and interviews host Ben Orenstein. They discuss the process of running the podcast and Ben's roots in programming and computer science. Ben talks about his Vim mastery, how he got into public speaking, and his experiences speaking at RailsConf. This year Ben is organizing the live coding track at RailConf. Ben describes his strategies for learning programming, how he's getting into Clojure, and much more!\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2014-01-26T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/530643e1-92f4-45a0-b404-a66bc10efb7b.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":25872094,"duration_in_seconds":3210}]},{"id":"3573e6ec-2be9-4b90-a2ea-13db3ebebd95","title":"82: Teach all the things (Matt Knox)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/82","content_text":"This week's episode features Matt Knox of Twitter. Matt is a part of Twitter's university team which teaches new Twitter recruits about the company. He works as an engineer as well in order to stay current. Matt discusses his background as an engineer, and how he got into teaching. He discusses using Storm, essentially a real-time Hadoop, for Twitter. Ben and Matt talk about the importance of keeping a portfolio as a programmer and deliberate practice routines for coding, and more.\n\n\nMatt Knox's Github\nMatt Knox's Blog\nStorm\nHadoop\nThe Things They Carry\nOn the Fundamentals of Programming\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @mattknox on twitter.","content_html":"This week's episode features Matt Knox of Twitter. Matt is a part of Twitter's university team which teaches new Twitter recruits about the company. He works as an engineer as well in order to stay current. Matt discusses his background as an engineer, and how he got into teaching. He discusses using Storm, essentially a real-time Hadoop, for Twitter. Ben and Matt talk about the importance of keeping a portfolio as a programmer and deliberate practice routines for coding, and more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @mattknox on twitter.
","summary":"This week's episode features Matt Knox of Twitter. Matt is a part of Twitter's university team which teaches new Twitter recruits about the company. He works as an engineer as well in order to stay current. Matt discusses his background as an engineer, and how he got into teaching. He discusses using Storm, essentially a real-time Hadoop, for Twitter. Ben and Matt talk about the importance of keeping a portfolio as a programmer and deliberate practice routines for coding, and more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2014-01-19T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/aba5b7c0-0d9c-49d3-94cf-69412bf529dc.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":18635161,"duration_in_seconds":2305}]},{"id":"b833dc4f-e2d8-4ed7-b53f-039444904280","title":"81: An Agent of Change (Seth Godin)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/81","content_text":"In this week's episode, Ben Orenstein is joined by best selling author, Seth Godin. Seth describes himself as an entrepreneur, a blogger, and an agent of change. They discuss art, frustration, and the endless pursuit of perfection as an artist. In his newest book, The Icarus Deception, Seth discusses seeking art in your work and looking beyond standards and production. They talk about the importance of finding connections with other artists and people who can provide meaningful feedback. They discuss several of Seth's blog posts which are linked below, and much more.\n\n\nSeth's Books\nHow to Draw an Owl\nPick Three\nBut What if I Fail\nKrypton Course\nThe Gift by Lewis Hyde\nThe War of Art\nInterview with Scott Adams\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @thisissethsblog on twitter.","content_html":"In this week's episode, Ben Orenstein is joined by best selling author, Seth Godin. Seth describes himself as an entrepreneur, a blogger, and an agent of change. They discuss art, frustration, and the endless pursuit of perfection as an artist. In his newest book, The Icarus Deception, Seth discusses seeking art in your work and looking beyond standards and production. They talk about the importance of finding connections with other artists and people who can provide meaningful feedback. They discuss several of Seth's blog posts which are linked below, and much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @thisissethsblog on twitter.
","summary":"In this week's episode, Ben Orenstein is joined by best selling author, Seth Godin. Seth describes himself as an entrepreneur, a blogger, and an agent of change. They discuss art, frustration, and the endless pursuit of perfection as an artist. In his newest book, The Icarus Deception, Seth discusses seeking art in your work and looking beyond standards and production. They talk about the importance of finding connections with other artists and people who can provide meaningful feedback. They discuss several of Seth's blog posts which are linked below, and much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2014-01-12T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/fcc27c87-c012-4e0e-9922-301b0e302bf9.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":16358158,"duration_in_seconds":2021}]},{"id":"540be990-7b48-4ecd-b94f-b3eb14650ec8","title":"80: Growing Business (Josh Pigford)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/80","content_text":"This week on Giant Robots, Ben Orenstein chats with Josh Pigford about time management, entrepreneurship and farming\n\n\nJosh Pigford's Website\nJosh Pigford's Twitter\nTiny Farmstead\nBaremetrics\nPopsurvey\nTemper\n","content_html":"This week on Giant Robots, Ben Orenstein chats with Josh Pigford about time management, entrepreneurship and farming
\n\n","summary":"This week on Giant Robots, Ben Orenstein chats with Josh Pigford about time management, entrepreneurship and farming\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-12-22T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/e329a1f8-30f5-4917-9d05-2acb3089a42c.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":13717186,"duration_in_seconds":1691}]},{"id":"b5d8c26b-013f-4db9-9abc-754369cdbcd9","title":"79: The Gentle Wise One (Uncle Bob Martin)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/79","content_text":"This week on Giant Robots, Ben Orenstein talks with Uncle Bob Martin about functional programming, ethics, and writing.\n\n\nBob Martin's Twitter\nClean Coder\nBob Martin's Blog\n","content_html":"This week on Giant Robots, Ben Orenstein talks with Uncle Bob Martin about functional programming, ethics, and writing.
\n\n","summary":"This week on Giant Robots, Ben Orenstein talks with Uncle Bob Martin about functional programming, ethics, and writing.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-12-15T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/6d475a56-bdd6-4a8d-842e-7f25e487539c.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":18420990,"duration_in_seconds":2279}]},{"id":"ccebe5f6-f0ea-4c62-9b81-f3adc05e17c6","title":"78: Fancy Pants (Chris Lindland)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/78","content_text":"This week on Giant Robots, Ben Orenstein talks with Chris Lindland, CEO of Betabrand.com about online fashion, self-generating product and dress-pant-sweatpants.\n\n\nChris Lindland's Twitte\nBetabrand\n","content_html":"This week on Giant Robots, Ben Orenstein talks with Chris Lindland, CEO of Betabrand.com about online fashion, self-generating product and dress-pant-sweatpants.
\n\n","summary":"This week on Giant Robots, Ben Orenstein talks with Chris Lindland, CEO of Betabrand.com about online fashion, self-generating product and dress-pant-sweatpants.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-12-08T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/c8a9710b-261a-4099-af19-80782a903621.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":13681406,"duration_in_seconds":1686}]},{"id":"50105f49-3892-42ff-850e-1869b22374e4","title":"77: A Beautiful Thing (Harold Giménez)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/77","content_text":"This week on Giant Robots, Ben Orenstein speaks with Harold Giménez, Heroku postgres leader, about postgres, data management, and beer brewing.\n\n\nHarold's Twitter\nHarold's Blog\nHeroku\n","content_html":"This week on Giant Robots, Ben Orenstein speaks with Harold Giménez, Heroku postgres leader, about postgres, data management, and beer brewing.
\n\n","summary":"This week on Giant Robots, Ben Orenstein speaks with Harold Giménez, Heroku postgres leader, about postgres, data management, and beer brewing.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-12-01T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/556c3649-4229-4e48-ac13-7f013485b0d0.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":24796230,"duration_in_seconds":3076}]},{"id":"b15bf4d6-9423-41b7-9c03-81b4946c4f19","title":"76: The Boutique Agency","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/76","content_text":"Ben Orenstein speaks with Alex Kesler, founder and CEO of inSegment about digital marketing, GTD and productivity.\n\n\ninSegment\ninSegment's Twitter\n","content_html":"Ben Orenstein speaks with Alex Kesler, founder and CEO of inSegment about digital marketing, GTD and productivity.
\n\n","summary":"Ben Orenstein speaks with Alex Kesler, founder and CEO of inSegment about digital marketing, GTD and productivity.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-11-24T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/be10b27e-5225-4836-8552-36d248b017cd.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":19796856,"duration_in_seconds":2451}]},{"id":"44e04579-d665-4157-951c-8606ff251c7e","title":"75: Embedding Democracy (Catherine Bracy)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/75","content_text":"This week Ben Orenstein interviews Catherine Bracy, Director of Community Organizing at Code for America.\n\n\nCatherine Bracy's Twitter\nCode for America\n","content_html":"This week Ben Orenstein interviews Catherine Bracy, Director of Community Organizing at Code for America.
\n\n","summary":"This week Ben Orenstein interviews Catherine Bracy, Director of Community Organizing at Code for America.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-11-17T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/e70a0d56-2c0a-48ff-b196-dbaf63e418e3.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":15238650,"duration_in_seconds":1881}]},{"id":"55c37d63-cbc3-4859-98d0-e459dbb522a6","title":"74: Fancy Scala (Sean Griffin)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/74","content_text":"Ben Orenstein speaks with thoughtbot developer Sean Griffin about scala and ruby.\n\n\nSean Griffin's Twitter\nUnderstanding Computation Tom Stuart\nScala Website\nMartin Odersky's Free Class\nProgramming Scala\n","content_html":"Ben Orenstein speaks with thoughtbot developer Sean Griffin about scala and ruby.
\n\nBen Orenstein speaks with Drew Neil, creator of vimcasts.org about teaching writing and workshopping vim.
\n\n","summary":"Ben Orenstein speaks with Drew Neil, creator of vimcasts.org about teaching writing and workshopping vim.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-11-03T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/a5b788c8-9b81-4529-a56c-91e810eb8c65.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":16055948,"duration_in_seconds":1983}]},{"id":"8f339f6f-269f-4c58-bf50-c39649a02efd","title":"72: Up in the Mountains (Nathan Barry)","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/72","content_text":"This week on The Giant Robots Podcast, Ben Orenstein chats with Nathan Barry about book writing, teaching and self employment.\n\n\nNathan's Twitter\nNathan's Website\nThe App Design Handbook\n","content_html":"This week on The Giant Robots Podcast, Ben Orenstein chats with Nathan Barry about book writing, teaching and self employment.
\n\n","summary":"This week on The Giant Robots Podcast, Ben Orenstein chats with Nathan Barry about book writing, teaching and self employment.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-10-27T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/d0adca6d-00e3-4dab-a2ef-b873502ca620.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":15862815,"duration_in_seconds":1959}]},{"id":"170bd48f-4c05-44f3-b909-c05510a8acd1","title":"71: The Power of the Truth","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/71","content_text":"Josh Clayton and Ben Orenstein interview each other about their managing director positions.\n\n\nBen Orenstein's Twitter\nJosh Clayton's Twitter\n","content_html":"Josh Clayton and Ben Orenstein interview each other about their managing director positions.
\n\n","summary":"Josh Clayton and Ben Orenstein interview each other about their managing director positions.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-10-20T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/6f1a88f1-b9cd-4df3-8135-cef9c2375bdd.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":19336269,"duration_in_seconds":2393}]},{"id":"f69a9055-8a92-445e-94b2-18bf577fc671","title":"70: Let Your Freak Flag Fly","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/70","content_text":"Ben Orenstein speaks with Jeff Atwood about Discourse, forum software, and soylent.\n\n\nCoding Horror\nStackExchange\nDiscourse.org\ndiscourse.soylent.me\nJeff Atwood's Twitter\n","content_html":"Ben Orenstein speaks with Jeff Atwood about Discourse, forum software, and soylent.
\n\n","summary":"Ben Orenstein speaks with Jeff Atwood about Discourse, forum software, and soylent.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-10-13T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/a407f558-e3ff-431d-9979-328f79b9c3e1.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":19523363,"duration_in_seconds":2417}]},{"id":"8a936a3d-f3b5-4e15-b00d-fa7e97a641e6","title":"69: Geocoding in the Now","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/69","content_text":"Ben Orenstein interviews Josh Clayton and Laila Winner on their book, Geocoding on Rails.\n\n\nGeocoding on Rails\nJosh Clayton's Twitter\nLaila Winner's Github\n","content_html":"Ben Orenstein interviews Josh Clayton and Laila Winner on their book, Geocoding on Rails.
\n\n","summary":"Ben Orenstein interviews Josh Clayton and Laila Winner on their book, Geocoding on Rails.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-10-06T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/667c4a09-6fcb-4742-b048-e1e3a9fb1da1.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":7310908,"duration_in_seconds":890}]},{"id":"843a7b91-8e9d-4506-8fb7-fdc736484f29","title":"68: Simplicity and Elegance","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/68","content_text":"Ben Orenstein and Paul Farnell, CEO of Litmus, talk about starting up, business practices, and Litmus.\n\n\nPaul Farnell's Twitter\nLitmus\n","content_html":"Ben Orenstein and Paul Farnell, CEO of Litmus, talk about starting up, business practices, and Litmus.
\n\n","summary":"Ben Orenstein and Paul Farnell, CEO of Litmus, talk about starting up, business practices, and Litmus.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-09-29T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/080996d6-38f6-4bbc-8c94-1d4f943cf1b8.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":16590031,"duration_in_seconds":2050}]},{"id":"adde52f3-0695-4b97-8fbe-fb98ccca7836","title":"67: The Data Optimist","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/67","content_text":"Ben Orenstein and Hilary Mason, Data Scientist in Residence at Accel Partners, talk about Data Science, Bitly and Cheeseburgers.\n\n\nrt.ly search engine\nOkCupid Blog\nhackNY\nDataGotham\nNYC Resister\nHilary Mason's Personal Website\nHilary Mason on Twitter\n","content_html":"Ben Orenstein and Hilary Mason, Data Scientist in Residence at Accel Partners, talk about Data Science, Bitly and Cheeseburgers.
\n\nBen talks with Anthony Eden about DNSimple, programming languages and code retreats.
\n\n","summary":"Ben talks with Anthony Eden about DNSimple, programming languages and code retreats.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-09-15T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/773b0613-93b3-4930-96a5-d37901aab701.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":19531631,"duration_in_seconds":2418}]},{"id":"09b6a8d8-fb4f-4ac0-a452-110c4951bc8e","title":"65: No! Videos Private!","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/65","content_text":"On this episode Ben talks with Chris Savage and Brendan Schwartz about Wistia\n\n\nWistia\nChris Savage's Twitter\nBrendan Schwartz's Twitter\n","content_html":"On this episode Ben talks with Chris Savage and Brendan Schwartz about Wistia
\n\n","summary":"On this episode Ben talks with Chris Savage and Brendan Schwartz about Wistia\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-09-08T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/39d0dada-a283-4252-8ca0-96d4e17ea96f.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":18630567,"duration_in_seconds":2305}]},{"id":"075fe908-20c5-45d1-b315-2f1f52ef10d0","title":"64: Wistfully Into the Air","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/64","content_text":"In this episode of Giant Robots Ben talks with Des Traynor about intercom, concise communication. blogging and customer outreach.\n\n\nIntercom\nInside Intercom Blog\nDes Traynor's Twitter\n","content_html":"In this episode of Giant Robots Ben talks with Des Traynor about intercom, concise communication. blogging and customer outreach.
\n\n","summary":"In this episode of Giant Robots Ben talks with Des Traynor about intercom, concise communication. blogging and customer outreach.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-09-01T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/611cd553-457c-468d-843f-679916c603e5.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":17615872,"duration_in_seconds":2178}]},{"id":"e973a9be-ea2d-4c24-876f-52fad7bfacc6","title":"63: Knowledge Bomb!","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/63","content_text":"Ben and Chad discuss mentoring, job hunting tips and FAQ\n\n\nthoughtbot Code Review Guide\nPair With Me\nSandi Metz Rules\n","content_html":"Ben and Chad discuss mentoring, job hunting tips and FAQ
\n\n","summary":"Ben and Chad discuss mentoring, job hunting tips and FAQ\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-08-25T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/bbadcd4a-e2b5-4bc5-b5a3-7f38b67b574b.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":23529615,"duration_in_seconds":2917}]},{"id":"da8b09d8-4ffa-46a6-afd9-f0e1e7d4b204","title":"62: Family Business","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/62","content_text":"In this of episode of Giant Robots, Ben speaks with Natalie Nagele and Ilya Sabanin about Wildbit, Beanstalk, and work flow.\n\n\nWildbit\nBeanstalk\nIlya Sabanin's Twitter\nNatalie Nagele's Twitter\n","content_html":"In this of episode of Giant Robots, Ben speaks with Natalie Nagele and Ilya Sabanin about Wildbit, Beanstalk, and work flow.
\n\n","summary":"In this of episode of Giant Robots, Ben speaks with Natalie Nagele and Ilya Sabanin about Wildbit, Beanstalk, and work flow.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-08-18T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/414dc9ad-10a0-4a1c-acee-6386adfcf6c5.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":15382791,"duration_in_seconds":1899}]},{"id":"54006a25-a88c-4258-b4d9-bea71bcecb5d","title":"61: Having the Craic with Paul","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/61","content_text":"In this episode Paul and Ben talk about tito, funconf, and organizing conferences.\n\n\nPaul Campbell's Twitter\nPabcas\nHypertiny\nTito\n","content_html":"In this episode Paul and Ben talk about tito, funconf, and organizing conferences.
\n\n","summary":"In this episode Paul and Ben talk about tito, funconf, and organizing conferences.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-08-11T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/30cbeca4-d513-4036-9f94-e6ba519eb475.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":16961750,"duration_in_seconds":2096}]},{"id":"3b28fdad-4f42-4af2-b7cf-ec507b61688b","title":"60: Deep Dive","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/60","content_text":"In this week's episode Ben discusses effective business practices and advice for optimal page design with special guest Patrick McKenzie.\n\n\nLearn Prime\nBingo Card Creator\nPaul Gram (Do Things That Don't Scale)\nDouble your Freelancing Rate\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @patio11 on twitter.","content_html":"In this week's episode Ben discusses effective business practices and advice for optimal page design with special guest Patrick McKenzie.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @patio11 on twitter.
","summary":"In this week's episode Ben discusses effective business practices and advice for optimal page design with special guest Patrick McKenzie.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-08-04T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/89572941-2d9a-40f2-b4c7-e022af03a236.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":16516662,"duration_in_seconds":2041}]},{"id":"b7f75cbe-e509-4529-9800-d3b372b1f6d8","title":"59: Nowhere to Hide","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/59","content_text":"In this episode, Ben Orenstein speaks with thoughtbot CTO Joe Ferris about the technical interview process at thoughtbot, and more.\n\n\nFlog tool complexity\nFlay duplication tool\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @joeferris on twitter.","content_html":"In this episode, Ben Orenstein speaks with thoughtbot CTO Joe Ferris about the technical interview process at thoughtbot, and more.
\n\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @joeferris on twitter.
","summary":"In this episode, Ben Orenstein speaks with thoughtbot CTO Joe Ferris about the technical interview process at thoughtbot, and more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-07-28T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/f3a304e3-da0d-453d-b388-f5bab98d9e5d.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":12604906,"duration_in_seconds":1552}]},{"id":"c49aa4a2-2487-442b-a752-e98cb5d148e3","title":"58: A Thousand Neckbeards","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/58","content_text":"This week Ben Orenstein, Pat Brisbin, and Mike Burns talk about Haskell, Linux, functional and dynamic programming, Conway's Game of Life, and much more.\n\n\nReal World Haskell\nHackage\nConways Game of LIfe\nLearn You A Haskell\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, @patbrisbin and @mikeburns on twitter.","content_html":"This week Ben Orenstein, Pat Brisbin, and Mike Burns talk about Haskell, Linux, functional and dynamic programming, Conway's Game of Life, and much more.
\n\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, @patbrisbin and @mikeburns on twitter.
","summary":"This week Ben Orenstein, Pat Brisbin, and Mike Burns talk about Haskell, Linux, functional and dynamic programming, Conway's Game of Life, and much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-07-21T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/671a22b7-8326-4c4f-b82a-17ba59a5c53c.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mp3","size_in_bytes":15169110,"duration_in_seconds":1872}]},{"id":"f0cc0c63-3b79-4575-961e-2567a6351e15","title":"57: Delayed Gratification","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/57","content_text":"In this episode, Ben Orenstein is joined by Michael Klett, Co-founder and tech lead of Chargify. Ben and Michael discuss the evolution of Chargify and bumps along the way, underwear subscriptions, Michael’s transition from hardware to software, negativity in the Rails community, slow tests, and much more.\n\n\nChargify\nManpacks\nBryan Helmcamp’s blog on 7 ways to refactor\nStructure and Interpretation of Computer Programs\n@tenderlove’s keynote at railsconf\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @moklett on twitter.","content_html":"In this episode, Ben Orenstein is joined by Michael Klett, Co-founder and tech lead of Chargify. Ben and Michael discuss the evolution of Chargify and bumps along the way, underwear subscriptions, Michael’s transition from hardware to software, negativity in the Rails community, slow tests, and much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @moklett on twitter.
","summary":"In this episode, Ben Orenstein is joined by Michael Klett, Co-founder and tech lead of Chargify. Ben and Michael discuss the evolution of Chargify and bumps along the way, underwear subscriptions, Michael’s transition from hardware to software, negativity in the Rails community, slow tests, and much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-07-14T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/5c498119-8f6e-4154-a63d-2aa76d91d85e.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":13708780,"duration_in_seconds":1690}]},{"id":"bbb1dcfe-8e42-413f-9610-742903426458","title":"56: Code in a Bubble Bath","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/56","content_text":"]In this episode Ben Orenstein is joined by Alex MacCaw, creator of Spine, formerly of Twitter, and now a developer at Stripe. Ben and Alex talk about travel, writing, code, and couch surfing.\n\n\nAlex's Personal Website\nAlex's Blog\nAlex's World Travel Blog Post\nAlex's Github\nSpine\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @maccaw on twitter.","content_html":"]
In this episode Ben Orenstein is joined by Alex MacCaw, creator of Spine, formerly of Twitter, and now a developer at Stripe. Ben and Alex talk about travel, writing, code, and couch surfing.
\n\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @maccaw on twitter.
","summary":"In this episode Ben Orenstein is joined by Alex MacCaw, creator of Spine, formerly of Twitter, and now a developer at Stripe. Ben and Alex talk about travel, writing, code, and couch surfing.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-07-07T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/da13fc62-a6b0-4608-b87c-7d3002475082.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":17761347,"duration_in_seconds":2196}]},{"id":"9ac1feeb-6c09-40a3-a578-17e93201b013","title":"55: The Value of Flow","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/55","content_text":"In this episode Ben Orenstein speaks with designer and founder of Authentic Jobs, Cameron Moll, about Authentic Jobs, design, the value of flow and family, and much, much more.\n\n\nAuthentic Jobs\nCameron's personal website\nPodcast: Hired\nCameron's Future Insights Live Keynote\nHire with your head – Lou Adler\nEbay CEO Interview Charlie Rose\nGood Designers Redesign, Great Designers Realign\nRails Conf 2013 How to Talk to Developers by Ben Orenstein\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @cameronmoll on twitter.","content_html":"In this episode Ben Orenstein speaks with designer and founder of Authentic Jobs, Cameron Moll, about Authentic Jobs, design, the value of flow and family, and much, much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @cameronmoll on twitter.
","summary":"In this episode Ben Orenstein speaks with designer and founder of Authentic Jobs, Cameron Moll, about Authentic Jobs, design, the value of flow and family, and much, much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-06-30T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/771b7df9-4d81-4bb2-932c-1eb98802e288.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":20584957,"duration_in_seconds":2549}]},{"id":"efc2c383-94f6-4f36-8901-4fe46a5a4cd2","title":"54: Build your stuff on the side and have a good time","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/54","content_text":"In this episode, Ben Orenstein is joined by 17 year old Jack Kaufman, author of The Found a Business Book. Ben and Jack discuss Jack's inspiration for the book and how he got all his interviews, the other opportunities it's led too, the common themes he uncovered in his interviews, the differences between those who got funding and bootstrappers, working on the book while in highschool, marketing he's doing, his plans for the future, the issue with college computer science programs, his fears about the future, and much more.\n\n\nThe Found a Business Book\nmixergy.com\nThe Side Project Book\nJack's guest post for Forbes.com\nHaverford College\npillsoftware.com\nMichael Hartl's Rails Totorial\nLearn Prime\napprentice.io\nDev Bootcamp\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @kaufman_jack on twitter.","content_html":"In this episode, Ben Orenstein is joined by 17 year old Jack Kaufman, author of The Found a Business Book. Ben and Jack discuss Jack's inspiration for the book and how he got all his interviews, the other opportunities it's led too, the common themes he uncovered in his interviews, the differences between those who got funding and bootstrappers, working on the book while in highschool, marketing he's doing, his plans for the future, the issue with college computer science programs, his fears about the future, and much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @kaufman_jack on twitter.
","summary":"In this episode, Ben Orenstein is joined by 17 year old Jack Kaufman, author of The Found a Business Book. Ben and Jack discuss Jack's inspiration for the book and how he got all his interviews, the other opportunities it's led too, the common themes he uncovered in his interviews, the differences between those who got funding and bootstrappers, working on the book while in highschool, marketing he's doing, his plans for the future, the issue with college computer science programs, his fears about the future, and much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-06-23T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/13ccfb26-dcb6-4855-96f9-3f29b2be135c.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":12366508,"duration_in_seconds":1522}]},{"id":"21441aa2-7383-468a-b5a5-ad31c03ac0ae","title":"53: Not everything needs to be extracted","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/53","content_text":"In this episode Ben Orenstein is joined by Yehuda Katz and Tom Dale from Tilde. They discuss bootstrapping a business and the model behind Tilde, their breakdown of product development and consulting, and how they all met. They also talk about designing APIs and frameworks that people actually want to use, how teaching helps them be better framework developers, how they can beat the competition, how supporting multiple languages and frameworks can ruin your app's experience, the big surprises as they've launched, Ember.js' push to 1.0 and beyond, the difference between Ember.js and Backbone.js and why JavaScript matters, and much more.\n\n\nTilde\nSkylight\nEmber.js\nEmber Data\nThe conceptual ladder\nW3C\nTC39\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, @tomdale, and @wycats on twitter.","content_html":"In this episode Ben Orenstein is joined by Yehuda Katz and Tom Dale from Tilde. They discuss bootstrapping a business and the model behind Tilde, their breakdown of product development and consulting, and how they all met. They also talk about designing APIs and frameworks that people actually want to use, how teaching helps them be better framework developers, how they can beat the competition, how supporting multiple languages and frameworks can ruin your app's experience, the big surprises as they've launched, Ember.js' push to 1.0 and beyond, the difference between Ember.js and Backbone.js and why JavaScript matters, and much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, @tomdale, and @wycats on twitter.
","summary":"In this episode Ben Orenstein is joined by Yehuda Katz and Tom Dale from Tilde. They discuss bootstrapping a business and the model behind Tilde, their breakdown of product development and consulting, and how they all met. They also talk about designing APIs and frameworks that people actually want to use, how teaching helps them be better framework developers, how they can beat the competition, how supporting multiple languages and frameworks can ruin your app's experience, the big surprises as they've launched, Ember.js' push to 1.0 and beyond, the difference between Ember.js and Backbone.js and why JavaScript matters, and much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-06-16T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/9f1540cb-69c1-4f0f-9ee5-7eb5f7f1cd77.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":18666477,"duration_in_seconds":2309}]},{"id":"25f5f6e6-121a-4c89-b46d-a7871cab88fd","title":"52: You look really fancy in your tuxedo","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/52","content_text":"In this special episode, number 52, and our 1 year anniversary episode, recorded at RailsConf 2013, Ben Orenstein is joined by Ruby and Rails core team member Aaron Patterson, thoughtbot CTO Joe Ferris, and a live studio audience. The trio discuss Rails 4, observers, callbacks, dubstep, namespaces, Scheme, functional programming, thread safety in Rails, what it would take to remove callbacks from Rails and why you would want to do it, what should be in our anniversary episode, dealing with Rails security issues, why Aaron likes to work on Rails, meeting people's expectations, Vim, intuitive software, and so much more.\n\n\nArray#forty_two\nChickenScheme\nThe Racket language\nStructure and Interpretation of Computer Programs (SICP)\nMetacircular interpreter\nPlay by Play: Aaron Patterson\nHeroku fucking console\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, @tenderlove, and @joeferris on twitter.","content_html":"In this special episode, number 52, and our 1 year anniversary episode, recorded at RailsConf 2013, Ben Orenstein is joined by Ruby and Rails core team member Aaron Patterson, thoughtbot CTO Joe Ferris, and a live studio audience. The trio discuss Rails 4, observers, callbacks, dubstep, namespaces, Scheme, functional programming, thread safety in Rails, what it would take to remove callbacks from Rails and why you would want to do it, what should be in our anniversary episode, dealing with Rails security issues, why Aaron likes to work on Rails, meeting people's expectations, Vim, intuitive software, and so much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, @tenderlove, and @joeferris on twitter.
","summary":"In this special episode, number 52, and our 1 year anniversary episode, recorded at RailsConf 2013, Ben Orenstein is joined by Ruby and Rails core team member Aaron Patterson, thoughtbot CTO Joe Ferris, and a live studio audience. The trio discuss Rails 4, observers, callbacks, dubstep, namespaces, Scheme, functional programming, thread safety in Rails, what it would take to remove callbacks from Rails and why you would want to do it, what should be in our anniversary episode, dealing with Rails security issues, why Aaron likes to work on Rails, meeting people's expectations, Vim, intuitive software, and so much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-06-09T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/0c1eb2b2-b906-4a1b-be19-df070a28c933.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":28187667,"duration_in_seconds":3499}]},{"id":"7daa88cb-536c-4f73-a29c-466b00a926db","title":"51: I found a voice","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/51","content_text":"On this week's show, recorded at RailsConf 2013, Ben Orenstein is joined by Sandi Metz, developer, author, podcaster, and recent Ruby Hero award winner. Ben and Sandi discuss winning awards, writing, whether notoriety changes who you are, what Sandi is proud of, the bad code she's writing and why, what she's doing now, getting real feedback on your work, that it's OK not to know everything, and much, much more.\n\n\nPractical Object-Oriented Design in Ruby\nRails Conf 2013 The Magic Tricks of Testing by Sandi Metz\nLanyrd\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @sandimetz on twitter.","content_html":"On this week's show, recorded at RailsConf 2013, Ben Orenstein is joined by Sandi Metz, developer, author, podcaster, and recent Ruby Hero award winner. Ben and Sandi discuss winning awards, writing, whether notoriety changes who you are, what Sandi is proud of, the bad code she's writing and why, what she's doing now, getting real feedback on your work, that it's OK not to know everything, and much, much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @sandimetz on twitter.
","summary":"On this week's show, recorded at RailsConf 2013, Ben Orenstein is joined by Sandi Metz, developer, author, podcaster, and recent Ruby Hero award winner. Ben and Sandi discuss winning awards, writing, whether notoriety changes who you are, what Sandi is proud of, the bad code she's writing and why, what she's doing now, getting real feedback on your work, that it's OK not to know everything, and much, much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-06-02T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/ace61367-d060-4f26-839a-58a9808a4bd4.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":15951093,"duration_in_seconds":1970}]},{"id":"fb37d023-8610-4a55-a288-3f1b0a95427e","title":"50: It's Monday today, let's change everything","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/50","content_text":"In this week's episode, recorded at RailsConf 2013, Ben Orenstein is joined by Jeff Casimir and Katrina Owen from Jumpstart Lab and gSchool to discuss performing, speaking, and imposter syndrome, preparing for your talk, and what makes a good talk and how to give one. The also discuss gSchool, the way the program works and they way it's guaranteed, teaching, admitting ignorance, how good practice should be harder than the real thing, and why Jeff didn't like studying Computer Science and why he didn't enjoy programming and how Rails reignited his passion for creating things, and much more.\n\n\nPeepcode\ngSchool\nJumpstart Lab\nCode Academy\ngalvanize\nGo\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, @j3 and @kytrinyx on twitter.","content_html":"In this week's episode, recorded at RailsConf 2013, Ben Orenstein is joined by Jeff Casimir and Katrina Owen from Jumpstart Lab and gSchool to discuss performing, speaking, and imposter syndrome, preparing for your talk, and what makes a good talk and how to give one. The also discuss gSchool, the way the program works and they way it's guaranteed, teaching, admitting ignorance, how good practice should be harder than the real thing, and why Jeff didn't like studying Computer Science and why he didn't enjoy programming and how Rails reignited his passion for creating things, and much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, @j3 and @kytrinyx on twitter.
","summary":"In this week's episode, recorded at RailsConf 2013, Ben Orenstein is joined by Jeff Casimir and Katrina Owen from Jumpstart Lab and gSchool to discuss performing, speaking, and imposter syndrome, preparing for your talk, and what makes a good talk and how to give one. The also discuss gSchool, the way the program works and they way it's guaranteed, teaching, admitting ignorance, how good practice should be harder than the real thing, and why Jeff didn't like studying Computer Science and why he didn't enjoy programming and how Rails reignited his passion for creating things, and much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-05-26T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/4144493f-69f1-45dd-8b7c-d12085c8ea03.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":21036907,"duration_in_seconds":2606}]},{"id":"b707cd08-941f-4219-8ce3-775b334ad2ed","title":"49: The psychology of work","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/49","content_text":"In this episode, recorded at RailsConf 2013, Ben Orenstein is joined by Gregg Pollack and Nathaniel Bibler from EnvyLabs and codeschool.com. Gregg shares what he's learned running his business, when not to be transparent, how to deal with compensation, and how the EnvyLabs compensation structure has changed over the years. Nathan, Gregg, and Ben also discuss Code School, yearly payments to a subscription, making courses effective, effective marketing, the effectiveness of mailing lists, community events, shared ownership, and much more.\n\n\nCode School\nRailsBridge\nBarcamp Orlando\nRuby5 podcast\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, @greggpollack and @nbibler on twitter.","content_html":"In this episode, recorded at RailsConf 2013, Ben Orenstein is joined by Gregg Pollack and Nathaniel Bibler from EnvyLabs and codeschool.com. Gregg shares what he's learned running his business, when not to be transparent, how to deal with compensation, and how the EnvyLabs compensation structure has changed over the years. Nathan, Gregg, and Ben also discuss Code School, yearly payments to a subscription, making courses effective, effective marketing, the effectiveness of mailing lists, community events, shared ownership, and much more.
\n\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, @greggpollack and @nbibler on twitter.
","summary":"In this episode, recorded at RailsConf 2013, Ben Orenstein is joined by Gregg Pollack and Nathaniel Bibler from EnvyLabs and codeschool.com. Gregg shares what he's learned running his business, when not to be transparent, how to deal with compensation, and how the EnvyLabs compensation structure has changed over the years. Nathan, Gregg, and Ben also discuss Code School, yearly payments to a subscription, making courses effective, effective marketing, the effectiveness of mailing lists, community events, shared ownership, and much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-05-19T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/8d58f643-35b8-4d0e-a6f3-2e5dd273a12e.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":17359711,"duration_in_seconds":2146}]},{"id":"87297e19-7b84-42da-9f03-8e3b39bca4ef","title":"48: Barista imposter syndrome","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/48","content_text":"In this episode, recorded at RailsConf 2013, Ben Orenstein is joined by Jon Larkowski, closet hippie and developer at CareZone. Ben and Jon discuss being a closet hippie, transitioning from consulting to working on a startup/product team, ping-pong, paying attention to your habits and improving to your life, meditation, firewalling your attention, fostering a startup culture, imposter syndrome, podcasting, coffee, code review, guitar, and much more.\n\n\ne3 live algae\nCareZone\nLift\nHeadspace\nThe Way I Getting Things Done by Jon Larkowski\nRuby5 podcast\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @l4rk on twitter.","content_html":"In this episode, recorded at RailsConf 2013, Ben Orenstein is joined by Jon Larkowski, closet hippie and developer at CareZone. Ben and Jon discuss being a closet hippie, transitioning from consulting to working on a startup/product team, ping-pong, paying attention to your habits and improving to your life, meditation, firewalling your attention, fostering a startup culture, imposter syndrome, podcasting, coffee, code review, guitar, and much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @l4rk on twitter.
","summary":"In this episode, recorded at RailsConf 2013, Ben Orenstein is joined by Jon Larkowski, closet hippie and developer at CareZone. Ben and Jon discuss being a closet hippie, transitioning from consulting to working on a startup/product team, ping-pong, paying attention to your habits and improving to your life, meditation, firewalling your attention, fostering a startup culture, imposter syndrome, podcasting, coffee, code review, guitar, and much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-05-12T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/c3ee95e0-e875-4258-980a-6c7137ffddab.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":18304663,"duration_in_seconds":2264}]},{"id":"01b94069-9194-4b9e-aa9f-0998bab60a44","title":"47: Two hours per minute","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/47","content_text":"In this episode, recorded at RailsConf 2013, Ben Orenstein is joined by Ryan Bates of RailsCasts. Ben and Ryan discuss Ryan's transition to working on RailsCasts full time, staying up to date on the latest technology, how his coding style has changed, maintaining his open source, the process of producing RailsCasts, why he doesn't speak at conferences, the latest technology he is excited about, and much more\n\n\nRailsCasts\nRuby Weekly\nAngular.js\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @rbates on twitter.","content_html":"In this episode, recorded at RailsConf 2013, Ben Orenstein is joined by Ryan Bates of RailsCasts. Ben and Ryan discuss Ryan's transition to working on RailsCasts full time, staying up to date on the latest technology, how his coding style has changed, maintaining his open source, the process of producing RailsCasts, why he doesn't speak at conferences, the latest technology he is excited about, and much more
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @rbates on twitter.
","summary":"In this episode, recorded at RailsConf 2013, Ben Orenstein is joined by Ryan Bates of RailsCasts. Ben and Ryan discuss Ryan's transition to working on RailsCasts full time, staying up to date on the latest technology, how his coding style has changed, maintaining his open source, the process of producing RailsCasts, why he doesn't speak at conferences, the latest technology he is excited about, and much more\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-05-05T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/ca7ed197-efc8-4240-8b58-feebab8de274.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":10216298,"duration_in_seconds":1253}]},{"id":"7150bec9-3143-4bc0-9220-f6636f630452","title":"46: We don't have a monopoly on being unhealthy","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/46","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Joe Kutner, programmer and author of ‘The Healthy Programmer’. Ben and Joe discuss how the demands of a development job lead to unhealthy habits, and ways to address the issues. They discuss specifics like standing desks, walking desks, the pomodoro technique, exercise, vitamin D, and much more.\n\n\nThe Healthy Programmer\nThe pomodoro technique\nStarting Stength\nThe Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business\nBig Ruby 2013 Build a Bigger Brain: How Healthy Living Makes You Smarter\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @codefinger on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Joe Kutner, programmer and author of ‘The Healthy Programmer’. Ben and Joe discuss how the demands of a development job lead to unhealthy habits, and ways to address the issues. They discuss specifics like standing desks, walking desks, the pomodoro technique, exercise, vitamin D, and much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @codefinger on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Joe Kutner, programmer and author of ‘The Healthy Programmer’. Ben and Joe discuss how the demands of a development job lead to unhealthy habits, and ways to address the issues. They discuss specifics like standing desks, walking desks, the pomodoro technique, exercise, vitamin D, and much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-04-28T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/172175e5-384d-4192-a4aa-ddcf7c4e636c.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":16378104,"duration_in_seconds":2023}]},{"id":"bbe0ec98-6d6f-46da-a61f-51f00a6cb3cc","title":"45: Tiny Robots Cuddling with other Tiny Robots","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/45","content_text":"This week we try something a little different. Joe Ferris, Matt Jankowski, Ben Orenstein, and Chad Pytel get together and have a little fun, in what we're calling \"Tiny Robots cuddling with other Tiny Robots\". We'd love to get your thoughts on this special format, tweet us @thoughtbot or email learn@thoughtbot.com.\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @joeferris, @jankowski, @r00k, and @cpytel on twitter.","content_html":"This week we try something a little different. Joe Ferris, Matt Jankowski, Ben Orenstein, and Chad Pytel get together and have a little fun, in what we're calling "Tiny Robots cuddling with other Tiny Robots". We'd love to get your thoughts on this special format, tweet us @thoughtbot or email learn@thoughtbot.com.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @joeferris, @jankowski, @r00k, and @cpytel on twitter.
","summary":"This week we try something a little different. Joe Ferris, Matt Jankowski, Ben Orenstein, and Chad Pytel get together and have a little fun, in what we're calling \"Tiny Robots cuddling with other Tiny Robots\". We'd love to get your thoughts on this special format, tweet us @thoughtbot or email learn@thoughtbot.com.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-04-21T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/32c3ef59-e2b1-42e7-a9f6-808bd5fdab07.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":16960699,"duration_in_seconds":2096}]},{"id":"9c6a1abd-12fb-4c85-84bf-84e3dff5eef5","title":"44: I feel the opposite of burnt out","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/44","content_text":"In this week's podcast, Ben Orenstein is joined by Chad Fowler, author, speaker, and CTO of 6wunderkinder. Ben and Chad discuss Chad's recent move to Berlin and 6wunderkinder, what a CTO does, getting back to coding, the early Ruby community, who Chad wants to hire, predicting success of new hires, and what makes a truly good developer, favorite interview questions, how Chad's interviewing process has changed over time, how age and experience can change your perspective, how Chad built a great team, and what he might write about in the future. They also discuss Chad's new tattoo, his regrets, meditation, therapy, gaining control over your mind, and much, much more.\n\n\nWunderlist\nDavid A. Black\nRich Kilmer\nDave Thomas\nHilary Mason, Speaking: Entertain, Don’t Teach\nBefunge\nOok! a programming language designed for orangutans\nLivingSocial Gains Wealth Of Ruby on Rails Expertise With InfoEther Acquisition\nBen Scofield\nEvan Pheonix\nThe Passionate Programmer: Creating a Remarkable Career in Software Development\nMy Job Went to India: 52 Ways to Save Your Job\nMartin Fowler\nClojure\nScala\nAmy Cuddy: Your body language shapes who you are (Power Posing)\nRailsberry Power Posing!\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @chadfowler on twitter.","content_html":"In this week's podcast, Ben Orenstein is joined by Chad Fowler, author, speaker, and CTO of 6wunderkinder. Ben and Chad discuss Chad's recent move to Berlin and 6wunderkinder, what a CTO does, getting back to coding, the early Ruby community, who Chad wants to hire, predicting success of new hires, and what makes a truly good developer, favorite interview questions, how Chad's interviewing process has changed over time, how age and experience can change your perspective, how Chad built a great team, and what he might write about in the future. They also discuss Chad's new tattoo, his regrets, meditation, therapy, gaining control over your mind, and much, much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @chadfowler on twitter.
","summary":"In this week's podcast, Ben Orenstein is joined by Chad Fowler, author, speaker, and CTO of 6wunderkinder. Ben and Chad discuss Chad's recent move to Berlin and 6wunderkinder, what a CTO does, getting back to coding, the early Ruby community, who Chad wants to hire, predicting success of new hires, and what makes a truly good developer, favorite interview questions, how Chad's interviewing process has changed over time, how age and experience can change your perspective, how Chad built a great team, and what he might write about in the future. They also discuss Chad's new tattoo, his regrets, meditation, therapy, gaining control over your mind, and much, much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-04-14T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/e4824974-397e-4e21-aaf0-5ee08fc7278b.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":25574115,"duration_in_seconds":3172}]},{"id":"00809bc5-1f97-401d-99fd-eb722ce54537","title":"43: A good person by default","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/43","content_text":"thoughtbot's Ben Orenstein is joined by Scott Orn, venture capitalist at Lighthouse Capital Partners by day, and co-founder of Ben's Friends by night. Ben and Scott discuss building a community, the future of Ben's Friends, and how running the site helps him be a better VC, teaching people, and getting value out of giving back. They also talk about his work as a venture capitalist at Lighthouse, how the money flows, the freemium software model, why it's good and how it works, picking the winners, and how the market can affect success, and the companies Scott thinks are great investments, and where he thinks the market is going.\n\n\nBen's Friends\nRails Rumble\nJonathan Coulton's blog post, 'Payday'\nLighthouse Capital Partners\nBoundless\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @scottorn on twitter.","content_html":"thoughtbot's Ben Orenstein is joined by Scott Orn, venture capitalist at Lighthouse Capital Partners by day, and co-founder of Ben's Friends by night. Ben and Scott discuss building a community, the future of Ben's Friends, and how running the site helps him be a better VC, teaching people, and getting value out of giving back. They also talk about his work as a venture capitalist at Lighthouse, how the money flows, the freemium software model, why it's good and how it works, picking the winners, and how the market can affect success, and the companies Scott thinks are great investments, and where he thinks the market is going.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @scottorn on twitter.
","summary":"thoughtbot's Ben Orenstein is joined by Scott Orn, venture capitalist at Lighthouse Capital Partners by day, and co-founder of Ben's Friends by night. Ben and Scott discuss building a community, the future of Ben's Friends, and how running the site helps him be a better VC, teaching people, and getting value out of giving back. They also talk about his work as a venture capitalist at Lighthouse, how the money flows, the freemium software model, why it's good and how it works, picking the winners, and how the market can affect success, and the companies Scott thinks are great investments, and where he thinks the market is going.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-04-07T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/d0684a40-52cb-4ce0-ab82-fc7d5d4f226f.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":21443486,"duration_in_seconds":2656}]},{"id":"ffc46b6d-99f1-48d6-a6d9-8dd74d08a0b8","title":"42: Why were you suing a website?","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/42","content_text":"This week, Ben Orenstein is joined by Peter Moldave, attorney at Gesmer Updegrove to discuss attorney client privilege, what not to do with email, the similarities between lawyers and programmers, how he got into law, his history with technology, and his time as a corporate lawyer at Apple. They also dig into how EULAs work, whether they are binding, whether you should be reading them, and how they can be enforced, software licensing, copyrights and the First-sale doctrine, patent law, software patents, and navigating the patent landscape. They also discuss how to view stock options in your startup job offer, working at startups, how to have a valuable career path, what your employer owns from your side projects or your work for them, how to manage liability in your startup, web site, app on the App Store, and side projects, the best corporate structure and much, much more.\n\n\nFirst-sale doctrine\ngSchool\nAssignment of Inventions\nLimited Liability Company\nThe default iOS app store license\nGesmer Updegrove, LLP\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @petermoldave on twitter.","content_html":"This week, Ben Orenstein is joined by Peter Moldave, attorney at Gesmer Updegrove to discuss attorney client privilege, what not to do with email, the similarities between lawyers and programmers, how he got into law, his history with technology, and his time as a corporate lawyer at Apple. They also dig into how EULAs work, whether they are binding, whether you should be reading them, and how they can be enforced, software licensing, copyrights and the First-sale doctrine, patent law, software patents, and navigating the patent landscape. They also discuss how to view stock options in your startup job offer, working at startups, how to have a valuable career path, what your employer owns from your side projects or your work for them, how to manage liability in your startup, web site, app on the App Store, and side projects, the best corporate structure and much, much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @petermoldave on twitter.
","summary":"This week, Ben Orenstein is joined by Peter Moldave, attorney at Gesmer Updegrove to discuss attorney client privilege, what not to do with email, the similarities between lawyers and programmers, how he got into law, his history with technology, and his time as a corporate lawyer at Apple. They also dig into how EULAs work, whether they are binding, whether you should be reading them, and how they can be enforced, software licensing, copyrights and the First-sale doctrine, patent law, software patents, and navigating the patent landscape. They also discuss how to view stock options in your startup job offer, working at startups, how to have a valuable career path, what your employer owns from your side projects or your work for them, how to manage liability in your startup, web site, app on the App Store, and side projects, the best corporate structure and much, much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-03-31T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/b686afd6-4c73-4c36-b3a5-43826c923e92.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":24361564,"duration_in_seconds":3021}]},{"id":"004881c5-fc4d-46ae-8936-9b59266f9208","title":"41: This is the sausage being made","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/41","content_text":"This week Ben Orenstein in joined by thoughtbot CEO, Chad Pytel, to discuss thoughbot's books, online and in-person training programs, other educational products, and the launch of thoughtbot's new subscription to everything they teach, Learn Prime. They also discuss some changes to apprentice.io, Five Guys, and much more!\n\n\nRuby Science\nBackbone.js on Rails\nIntermediate Ruby on Rails\nIntro to Ruby on Rails\nLearn Prime\napprentice.io\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @cpytel on twitter.","content_html":"This week Ben Orenstein in joined by thoughtbot CEO, Chad Pytel, to discuss thoughbot's books, online and in-person training programs, other educational products, and the launch of thoughtbot's new subscription to everything they teach, Learn Prime. They also discuss some changes to apprentice.io, Five Guys, and much more!
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @cpytel on twitter.
","summary":"This week Ben Orenstein in joined by thoughtbot CEO, Chad Pytel, to discuss thoughbot's books, online and in-person training programs, other educational products, and the launch of thoughtbot's new subscription to everything they teach, Learn Prime. They also discuss some changes to apprentice.io, Five Guys, and much more!\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-03-24T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/6193cbff-0163-455a-859c-96038e801857.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":17369575,"duration_in_seconds":2147}]},{"id":"b804f866-da69-407c-a2bc-bd2c50ed19db","title":"40: He's winking at me","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/40","content_text":"Ben is joined by Bryan Helmkamp, the founder of CodeClimate. In Bryan's second appearance on the podcast, Ben and Bryan discuss the architecture behind CodeClimate, scaling the service, and growing the business. They also discuss speaking at conferences, proposal selection, two factor authentication and adding it to CodeClimate, marketing and content marketing, how to decide what to build and proving that it was worthwhile, strategies for testing at the beginning when you have few users, and Bryan reveals CodeClimate next big upcoming feature.\n\n\nSidekiq\nJRuby\nRubinius\nJust-in-time (JIT) compilation\nLibrato metrics\nRails Security Monitor by Code Climate\nBoston.rb, Rails Application Security in Practice_\nrailssecurity.com\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @brynary on twitter.","content_html":"Ben is joined by Bryan Helmkamp, the founder of CodeClimate. In Bryan's second appearance on the podcast, Ben and Bryan discuss the architecture behind CodeClimate, scaling the service, and growing the business. They also discuss speaking at conferences, proposal selection, two factor authentication and adding it to CodeClimate, marketing and content marketing, how to decide what to build and proving that it was worthwhile, strategies for testing at the beginning when you have few users, and Bryan reveals CodeClimate next big upcoming feature.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @brynary on twitter.
","summary":"Ben is joined by Bryan Helmkamp, the founder of CodeClimate. In Bryan's second appearance on the podcast, Ben and Bryan discuss the architecture behind CodeClimate, scaling the service, and growing the business. They also discuss speaking at conferences, proposal selection, two factor authentication and adding it to CodeClimate, marketing and content marketing, how to decide what to build and proving that it was worthwhile, strategies for testing at the beginning when you have few users, and Bryan reveals CodeClimate next big upcoming feature.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-03-17T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/0f0fa5e3-5c11-4c55-b5a9-ce4237704b35.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":15688460,"duration_in_seconds":1937}]},{"id":"22366d6b-2f83-4d6b-9159-f2a3501a5d13","title":"39: We've been watching you for some time, Mr. Grimm","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/39","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Avdi Grimm, software developer, author, and podcaster. Ben and Avdi discuss Emacs, Avdi's personal assistant and delegating work. They also discuss naming and finding implicit concepts in your code, encoding processes as objects in their own right, his publishing and podcasting, the pronunciation of Parley, Ruby Tapas, education resources and the benefits of open source languages, his goals, the most civilized way to travel, and what we got wrong about the Law of Demeter.\n\n\nMandy Moore, Assistance for Software Professionals\nRuby Tapas\nMethodObject\nObjects on Rails\nExceptional Ruby\nConfident Ruby\nRuby Rogues podcast\nWide Teams\nRuby Rogues Parley\nGRSIOGR podcast on Law of Demeter, Episode 27: Fabulous new mistakes\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @avdi on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Avdi Grimm, software developer, author, and podcaster. Ben and Avdi discuss Emacs, Avdi's personal assistant and delegating work. They also discuss naming and finding implicit concepts in your code, encoding processes as objects in their own right, his publishing and podcasting, the pronunciation of Parley, Ruby Tapas, education resources and the benefits of open source languages, his goals, the most civilized way to travel, and what we got wrong about the Law of Demeter.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @avdi on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Avdi Grimm, software developer, author, and podcaster. Ben and Avdi discuss Emacs, Avdi's personal assistant and delegating work. They also discuss naming and finding implicit concepts in your code, encoding processes as objects in their own right, his publishing and podcasting, the pronunciation of Parley, Ruby Tapas, education resources and the benefits of open source languages, his goals, the most civilized way to travel, and what we got wrong about the Law of Demeter.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-03-10T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/615bb569-c9d6-426a-80df-6aad00d79f11.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":18785263,"duration_in_seconds":2324}]},{"id":"9865a24a-d912-4e6e-bafe-0ff462af8fcb","title":"38: Standing out from the pack","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/38","content_text":"This week Ben Orenstein is joined by Jeremy McAnally, employee at GitHub, author of Ruby in Practice, Rails 3 Upgrade Handbook, MacRuby in Action, and more. Jeremy and Ben discuss teaching and organizing conferences, remote working for GitHub, the and the company summits, GitHub workflows, their internal tools team. They also talk about standing out from the pack in work, life, and getting accepted to conferences, selecting people to speak at conferences, self-publishing, Jeremy's writing process and future writing plans, work-life balance, how to get a job at GitHub, and much more.\n\n\nMagicRuby\nRuby Hoedown\nLa Conf\nHubot\nCodeConf\nRails Girls\nRuby in Practice\nMacRuby in Action\nRails 3 Upgrade Handbook\nRedCarpet Markdown parser\nPrinceXML\nSecuring Rails\nSeasonal Affective Disorder\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @jm on twitter.","content_html":"This week Ben Orenstein is joined by Jeremy McAnally, employee at GitHub, author of Ruby in Practice, Rails 3 Upgrade Handbook, MacRuby in Action, and more. Jeremy and Ben discuss teaching and organizing conferences, remote working for GitHub, the and the company summits, GitHub workflows, their internal tools team. They also talk about standing out from the pack in work, life, and getting accepted to conferences, selecting people to speak at conferences, self-publishing, Jeremy's writing process and future writing plans, work-life balance, how to get a job at GitHub, and much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @jm on twitter.
","summary":"This week Ben Orenstein is joined by Jeremy McAnally, employee at GitHub, author of Ruby in Practice, Rails 3 Upgrade Handbook, MacRuby in Action, and more. Jeremy and Ben discuss teaching and organizing conferences, remote working for GitHub, the and the company summits, GitHub workflows, their internal tools team. They also talk about standing out from the pack in work, life, and getting accepted to conferences, selecting people to speak at conferences, self-publishing, Jeremy's writing process and future writing plans, work-life balance, how to get a job at GitHub, and much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-03-03T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/723166ac-b53c-40b1-b32c-42cbc392e91e.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":18054849,"duration_in_seconds":2233}]},{"id":"ab456a03-5a6d-4873-895e-707624d8031f","title":"37: You're riding the Rails bro!","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/37","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined this week by Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot. Ben and Joe discuss starting a new Rails project and our Rails application generator, Suspenders, test spies and breaking up your tests, and using Rails beta versions.\n\n\nSuspenders\nSuspenders app Gemfile\nPodcast with Bourbon creator Phil LaPier\nDeclaring and Scaling Process Types with Procfile\nTest spy\nTrello\nMinimum viable product (MVP)\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @joeferris on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined this week by Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot. Ben and Joe discuss starting a new Rails project and our Rails application generator, Suspenders, test spies and breaking up your tests, and using Rails beta versions.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @joeferris on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined this week by Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot. Ben and Joe discuss starting a new Rails project and our Rails application generator, Suspenders, test spies and breaking up your tests, and using Rails beta versions.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-02-24T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/c3c77f53-95a8-4c79-9ba4-879343305192.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":16738252,"duration_in_seconds":2088}]},{"id":"bc0ca359-2dd3-479b-b8c5-c790d60b878e","title":"36: A gem called exploit","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/36","content_text":"This week Ben Orenstein is joined by Nick Quaranto, developer at 37signals and one of the maintainers of RubyGems.org. Nick and Ben discuss the just released Basecamp iOS app, the architecture of the app, the origins of the app and how it became what it is today, and RubyMotion in general. They then move on to discuss the recent RubyGems.org cracking, the mechanism behind it, the process of restoring the service, and how it might affect RubyGems going forward. They then circle back to talk more about RubyMotion, testing, working at 37signals, CoworkBuffalo, OpenHack, and good coffee.\n\n\n#inspect, RubyMotion conference\nBasecamp for iOS\nRubyGems.org cracked\nCoworkBuffalo\nThe On-Call Programmer\nKevin Purdy\nChemex Coffeemaker\nOpenHack\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @qrush on twitter.","content_html":"This week Ben Orenstein is joined by Nick Quaranto, developer at 37signals and one of the maintainers of RubyGems.org. Nick and Ben discuss the just released Basecamp iOS app, the architecture of the app, the origins of the app and how it became what it is today, and RubyMotion in general. They then move on to discuss the recent RubyGems.org cracking, the mechanism behind it, the process of restoring the service, and how it might affect RubyGems going forward. They then circle back to talk more about RubyMotion, testing, working at 37signals, CoworkBuffalo, OpenHack, and good coffee.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @qrush on twitter.
","summary":"This week Ben Orenstein is joined by Nick Quaranto, developer at 37signals and one of the maintainers of RubyGems.org. Nick and Ben discuss the just released Basecamp iOS app, the architecture of the app, the origins of the app and how it became what it is today, and RubyMotion in general. They then move on to discuss the recent RubyGems.org cracking, the mechanism behind it, the process of restoring the service, and how it might affect RubyGems going forward. They then circle back to talk more about RubyMotion, testing, working at 37signals, CoworkBuffalo, OpenHack, and good coffee.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-02-17T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/d38acf99-1a16-4afb-97f8-2d6999c838d7.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":23238687,"duration_in_seconds":2901}]},{"id":"41968694-d8f6-4558-8d25-a75547dfb8a2","title":"35: I haven't lifted a pencil in years","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/35","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Dennis Najjar CPA from AccountingDepartment.com. They discuss international companies operating in the United States, the tools of his trade, how AccountingDepartment.com is set up and what their different clients look like, and why it makes sense to outsource your bookkeeping and accounting. They also explore the checks and balances you should have in bookkeeping and accounting, the accounting departments role in an organization and 1099s their purpose, and what to do if you don't get one.\n\n\nAccountingDepartment.com\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot and @r00k on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Dennis Najjar CPA from AccountingDepartment.com. They discuss international companies operating in the United States, the tools of his trade, how AccountingDepartment.com is set up and what their different clients look like, and why it makes sense to outsource your bookkeeping and accounting. They also explore the checks and balances you should have in bookkeeping and accounting, the accounting departments role in an organization and 1099s their purpose, and what to do if you don't get one.
\n\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot and @r00k on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Dennis Najjar CPA from AccountingDepartment.com. They discuss international companies operating in the United States, the tools of his trade, how AccountingDepartment.com is set up and what their different clients look like, and why it makes sense to outsource your bookkeeping and accounting. They also explore the checks and balances you should have in bookkeeping and accounting, the accounting departments role in an organization and 1099s their purpose, and what to do if you don't get one.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-02-10T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/ee179d6a-ebd0-4940-a62d-799526227fef.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":14082943,"duration_in_seconds":1756}]},{"id":"0f298c55-e89e-4c06-9a66-056a986ef20e","title":"34: Very little comes to those who wait","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/34","content_text":"In this week's episode, Ben Orenstein is joined by Steve Snyder, Entrepreneur in Residence at the law firm, Gesmer Updegrove LLP. Ben and Steve discuss Steve's history, his unique position at the law firm, mistakes to avoid, and advice and guidance to entrepreneurs just starting out.\n\n\nGesmer Updegrove LLP\nThe Four Steps to the Epiphany: Successful Strategies for Products that Win\nNever Eat Alone: And Other Secrets to Success, One Relationship at a Time\nGood to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap... and Others Don't\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot and @r00k on twitter.","content_html":"In this week's episode, Ben Orenstein is joined by Steve Snyder, Entrepreneur in Residence at the law firm, Gesmer Updegrove LLP. Ben and Steve discuss Steve's history, his unique position at the law firm, mistakes to avoid, and advice and guidance to entrepreneurs just starting out.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot and @r00k on twitter.
","summary":"In this week's episode, Ben Orenstein is joined by Steve Snyder, Entrepreneur in Residence at the law firm, Gesmer Updegrove LLP. Ben and Steve discuss Steve's history, his unique position at the law firm, mistakes to avoid, and advice and guidance to entrepreneurs just starting out.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-02-03T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/4cc1e034-4f2d-41ab-9046-e9872b83605b.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":14104715,"duration_in_seconds":1759}]},{"id":"5df976f8-520e-4efa-8b50-180ec18bd9cb","title":"33: I've failed before","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/33","content_text":"This week Ben Orenstein is joined by Jarrod Drysdale, the author of Bootstrapping Design. Ben and Jarrod discuss the sales and revenue of the book, and his new project, cascade.io. They also talk about learning new things, problem solving, and the differences between programming and design. They also discuss the downside to recurring revenue, successful marketing strategies for his book, advice for people who want to start something new, the concerns of a solo entrepreneur, and how his previous failures help him keep perspective.\n\n\nBootstrapping Design\ncascade.io\nGetting Real\n30x500\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @studiofellow on twitter.","content_html":"This week Ben Orenstein is joined by Jarrod Drysdale, the author of Bootstrapping Design. Ben and Jarrod discuss the sales and revenue of the book, and his new project, cascade.io. They also talk about learning new things, problem solving, and the differences between programming and design. They also discuss the downside to recurring revenue, successful marketing strategies for his book, advice for people who want to start something new, the concerns of a solo entrepreneur, and how his previous failures help him keep perspective.
\n\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @studiofellow on twitter.
","summary":"This week Ben Orenstein is joined by Jarrod Drysdale, the author of Bootstrapping Design. Ben and Jarrod discuss the sales and revenue of the book, and his new project, cascade.io. They also talk about learning new things, problem solving, and the differences between programming and design. They also discuss the downside to recurring revenue, successful marketing strategies for his book, advice for people who want to start something new, the concerns of a solo entrepreneur, and how his previous failures help him keep perspective.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-01-27T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/3eb8a055-5725-42b3-aa3c-ed2a61bcefe4.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":12317205,"duration_in_seconds":1536}]},{"id":"d05e4b9e-3492-43a5-9e19-51ed4fca3fa5","title":"32: There is an excited you in there","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/32","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined this week by Daniel Jalkut, the developer of MarsEdit and other fine software. Ben and Daniel discuss the origin of Daniel's twitter username, his history at Apple and his work there, and how it influences what he builds today. They also discuss the challenges of running your own company, and how Daniel's priorities and rule systems help him get things done, how the success of MarsEdit takes up his attention at the exclusion of other ideas, and how he thinks about failure. Then then go on to talk about App Store versus direct sales, why Daniel still sells his software outside the app store as well as in it, and what the breakdown of sales are like there, as well as Daniel's thoughts on App Store pricing and the benefits of being in the app store. Finally, Daniel tells us why he thinks git is like a PC and Mercurial is like a Mac, why he dislikes git, what he thinks makes a good podcast, how his podcast has changed, and much more.\n\n\nRed Sweater Software\nMarsEdit\nCVS\nRCS\nSVN\ngit\nBazaar\nMercurial\nCore Intuition\nReal Artists Ship. Eventually.\nÇingleton Symposium\nRed Sweater Software Blog\nBitsplitting.org\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @danielpunkass on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined this week by Daniel Jalkut, the developer of MarsEdit and other fine software. Ben and Daniel discuss the origin of Daniel's twitter username, his history at Apple and his work there, and how it influences what he builds today. They also discuss the challenges of running your own company, and how Daniel's priorities and rule systems help him get things done, how the success of MarsEdit takes up his attention at the exclusion of other ideas, and how he thinks about failure. Then then go on to talk about App Store versus direct sales, why Daniel still sells his software outside the app store as well as in it, and what the breakdown of sales are like there, as well as Daniel's thoughts on App Store pricing and the benefits of being in the app store. Finally, Daniel tells us why he thinks git is like a PC and Mercurial is like a Mac, why he dislikes git, what he thinks makes a good podcast, how his podcast has changed, and much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @danielpunkass on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined this week by Daniel Jalkut, the developer of MarsEdit and other fine software. Ben and Daniel discuss the origin of Daniel's twitter username, his history at Apple and his work there, and how it influences what he builds today. They also discuss the challenges of running your own company, and how Daniel's priorities and rule systems help him get things done, how the success of MarsEdit takes up his attention at the exclusion of other ideas, and how he thinks about failure. Then then go on to talk about App Store versus direct sales, why Daniel still sells his software outside the app store as well as in it, and what the breakdown of sales are like there, as well as Daniel's thoughts on App Store pricing and the benefits of being in the app store. Finally, Daniel tells us why he thinks git is like a PC and Mercurial is like a Mac, why he dislikes git, what he thinks makes a good podcast, how his podcast has changed, and much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-01-20T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/3971960e-dd4b-4f37-88a1-c40508689edb.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":20248946,"duration_in_seconds":2527}]},{"id":"9205d206-31c5-48ab-bcdc-8a83de9b8580","title":"31: I write everything in Markdown","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/31","content_text":"This week Chad Pytel is joined by software developer, podcaster, and author, Brett Terpstra. Chad and Brett discuss Brett's work location and setup, his open source and commercial software projects, app store pricing, his publishing experience and workflow, and his podcast. They also discuss his keyboard and trackpad mappings, and much more.\n\n\nbrettterpstra.com\nnvALT\nBrett's GitHub profile\nMarked\nMultiMarkdown\n60 Mountain Lion Tips\niBooks Author\nPandoc\nSystematic on 5by5\nKeyRemap4MacBook\nApptivate\nBetterTouchTool\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @cpytel, and @ttscoff on twitter.","content_html":"This week Chad Pytel is joined by software developer, podcaster, and author, Brett Terpstra. Chad and Brett discuss Brett's work location and setup, his open source and commercial software projects, app store pricing, his publishing experience and workflow, and his podcast. They also discuss his keyboard and trackpad mappings, and much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @cpytel, and @ttscoff on twitter.
","summary":"This week Chad Pytel is joined by software developer, podcaster, and author, Brett Terpstra. Chad and Brett discuss Brett's work location and setup, his open source and commercial software projects, app store pricing, his publishing experience and workflow, and his podcast. They also discuss his keyboard and trackpad mappings, and much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-01-13T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/3b4a479c-84d5-4fce-911c-949ca3c5e509.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":21859775,"duration_in_seconds":2728}]},{"id":"0ef47ec6-a695-4fc7-9c4f-964ff6336cf8","title":"30: Giant Year-End Extravaganza","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/30","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Chad Pytel, the CEO of thoughtbot to take a look back at some of the things thoughtbot did in 2012. They then answer a bunch of listener questions.\n\nJanuary\n\n\nTrajectory Redesign\nOpen source releases every two weeks\nFactory Girl 2.4 (refactoring, speed increase) and 2.5 (custom constructors)\nshoulda-context gets a new maintainer\n\n\nFebruary\n\n\nShoulda 3.0\nApprentice.io Launches\nAirbrake acquired by Exceptional\n\n\nMarch\n\n\nthoughtbot goes to Stockholm\nPaperclip 3.0\nFactoryGirl 3.0\nApprentice.io opens up to all employers\nCopycopter goes open source\nTrajectory gets Campfire integration\n\n\nApril\n\n\nZero Github Issues\nFactoryGirl 3.2\nNew Boston office\n\n\nMay\n\n\nTrail Maps released\nTrajectory gets a full json API\nHumans Present: Refactoring\n\n\nJune\n\n\nBackbone.js on Rails hit 1.0\nOpening and office in SF\nFirst podcast episode!\n\n\nJuly\n\n\nPlaybook: Video Edition\nVersion 3.6.0 of factory_girl, memoization to the names of attributes which adds a 33% speed increase on factories with override\n\n\nAugust\n\n\nLearn launched\n\n\nSeptember\n\n\nBourbon Neat version 1.0\nOnline workshops\n\n\nNovember\n\n\nColorado office announced\nStockholm drinkup\n2nd online workshop Test-Driven Rails\n\n\nDecember\n\n\nRuby Science launched\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @cpytel, and @r00k on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Chad Pytel, the CEO of thoughtbot to take a look back at some of the things thoughtbot did in 2012. They then answer a bunch of listener questions.
\n\nJanuary
\n\nFebruary
\n\n\n\nMarch
\n\nApril
\n\n\n\nMay
\n\n\n\nJune
\n\n\n\nJuly
\n\nAugust
\n\nSeptember
\n\n\n\nNovember
\n\n\n\nDecember
\n\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @cpytel, and @r00k on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Chad Pytel, the CEO of thoughtbot to take a look back at some of the things thoughtbot did in 2012. They then answer a bunch of listener questions.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2013-01-06T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/16cd0224-f9a4-4eb4-a5a9-ab1efeeaa061.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":31819339,"duration_in_seconds":3972}]},{"id":"521ebdbd-94ec-4dd0-8a0f-ce6e959917e0","title":"29: The most ironic iOS developer","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/29","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Gordon Fontenot and Matt Mongeau, two thoughtbot developers, to discuss iOS development using both Objective-C and RubyMotion. Ben, Matt, and Gordon talk about the differences between the two platforms for iOS development, testing in iOS development, the difficulty in it, and the ways to do it. They also make they're recommendations for getting started with iOS development, and discuss iOS apps they like, designing iOS applications, the iOS release cycle, and much more.\n\n\nRubyMotion\nLLVM\nCoffeeScript\nBacon, a small RSpec clone\nWriting Tests for RubyMotion Apps\nJoel on Software, \"Back to Basics\"\nThe LLDB Debugger\nrubymotion-tutorial.com\nRubyMotion, by Clay Allsop\nTest-Driven iOS Development\nAll the C You Need to Know\nFantastical for iPhone\nUIAppearance\nCocoaPods\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @halogenandtoast, @gfontenot, and @r00k on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Gordon Fontenot and Matt Mongeau, two thoughtbot developers, to discuss iOS development using both Objective-C and RubyMotion. Ben, Matt, and Gordon talk about the differences between the two platforms for iOS development, testing in iOS development, the difficulty in it, and the ways to do it. They also make they're recommendations for getting started with iOS development, and discuss iOS apps they like, designing iOS applications, the iOS release cycle, and much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @halogenandtoast, @gfontenot, and @r00k on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Gordon Fontenot and Matt Mongeau, two thoughtbot developers, to discuss iOS development using both Objective-C and RubyMotion. Ben, Matt, and Gordon talk about the differences between the two platforms for iOS development, testing in iOS development, the difficulty in it, and the ways to do it. They also make they're recommendations for getting started with iOS development, and discuss iOS apps they like, designing iOS applications, the iOS release cycle, and much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-12-30T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/d68118d1-bd5a-4166-93f8-dc9244de8da2.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":13807073,"duration_in_seconds":1721}]},{"id":"0f3ed96e-6dba-438e-94a3-e9cfd5f3e4ab","title":"28: Farther, further, faster","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/28","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by David Heinemeier Hansson, the creator of Ruby on Rails and a partner at 37signals. David and Ben discuss David's normal day, his working relationship with Jason Fried, how their blog, Signal vs. Noise, is important to the company, how he got into programming, where he draws his inspiration from, some good books he's read and how he learns today, how he overcomes fear and why he takes risks, how he got into racing, why he enjoys it, what he learns from it, and how feedback loops and goal posts help you learn, inspire you, and help you know how good you are. They then go on to explore what David would, or wouldn't, change about Rails, and how he sees Rails evolving into the future. David also talks a little bit about the new product 37signals has in development, and 37signals' overall product strategy, coding at 37signals and his approach to providing guidance to the team, what role he plays on Rails core, what he cares about, and what he pays attention to, and much, much more.\n\n\nDavid's website\nSignal vs. Noise\nDomain-Driven Design: Tackling Complexity in the Heart of Software\nPatterns of Enterprise Application Architecture\nRefactoring: Improving the Design of Existing Code\nExtreme Programming Explained: Embrace Change\nSmalltalk Best Practice Patterns\nCode Complete: A Practical Handbook of Software Construction\nDavid Heinemeier Hansson's racing\nSinatra\nNode.js\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @dhh, and @r00k on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by David Heinemeier Hansson, the creator of Ruby on Rails and a partner at 37signals. David and Ben discuss David's normal day, his working relationship with Jason Fried, how their blog, Signal vs. Noise, is important to the company, how he got into programming, where he draws his inspiration from, some good books he's read and how he learns today, how he overcomes fear and why he takes risks, how he got into racing, why he enjoys it, what he learns from it, and how feedback loops and goal posts help you learn, inspire you, and help you know how good you are. They then go on to explore what David would, or wouldn't, change about Rails, and how he sees Rails evolving into the future. David also talks a little bit about the new product 37signals has in development, and 37signals' overall product strategy, coding at 37signals and his approach to providing guidance to the team, what role he plays on Rails core, what he cares about, and what he pays attention to, and much, much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @dhh, and @r00k on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by David Heinemeier Hansson, the creator of Ruby on Rails and a partner at 37signals. David and Ben discuss David's normal day, his working relationship with Jason Fried, how their blog, Signal vs. Noise, is important to the company, how he got into programming, where he draws his inspiration from, some good books he's read and how he learns today, how he overcomes fear and why he takes risks, how he got into racing, why he enjoys it, what he learns from it, and how feedback loops and goal posts help you learn, inspire you, and help you know how good you are. They then go on to explore what David would, or wouldn't, change about Rails, and how he sees Rails evolving into the future. David also talks a little bit about the new product 37signals has in development, and 37signals' overall product strategy, coding at 37signals and his approach to providing guidance to the team, what role he plays on Rails core, what he cares about, and what he pays attention to, and much, much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-12-23T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/8d94ef01-1159-4843-a96e-c58bdf74f894.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":23053779,"duration_in_seconds":2877}]},{"id":"4dd3d983-7742-462c-bddc-04fb07cd3270","title":"27: Fabulous new mistakes","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/27","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot. Inspired by a question on Law of Demeter from listener Nathan Long, Joe and Ben (hopefully) answer Nathan's question, and then go on to discuss how the Law of Demeter is a form of duplication, how it effects testing, and how to better architect your report, your view, or your entire system to better obey the Law of Demeter. They also touch upon Rails' try method, how the pain of testing helps guide the code you write, where the Law of Demeter doesn't apply, how people don't refactor their tests, how to productively refactor your tests and avoid wasting time rewriting things, and much more.\n\n\nLaw of Demeter, Wikipedia\nVirtuous Code - Avdi Grimm, Demeter: It's not just a good idea. It's the law\nNathan Long's LoD question\n#try\nBuilder pattern, Wikipedia\nThe Boy Scout Rule\nRuby Science\nFluent interfaces, Stub a chain of methods\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @joeferris, and @r00k on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot. Inspired by a question on Law of Demeter from listener Nathan Long, Joe and Ben (hopefully) answer Nathan's question, and then go on to discuss how the Law of Demeter is a form of duplication, how it effects testing, and how to better architect your report, your view, or your entire system to better obey the Law of Demeter. They also touch upon Rails' try method, how the pain of testing helps guide the code you write, where the Law of Demeter doesn't apply, how people don't refactor their tests, how to productively refactor your tests and avoid wasting time rewriting things, and much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @joeferris, and @r00k on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot. Inspired by a question on Law of Demeter from listener Nathan Long, Joe and Ben (hopefully) answer Nathan's question, and then go on to discuss how the Law of Demeter is a form of duplication, how it effects testing, and how to better architect your report, your view, or your entire system to better obey the Law of Demeter. They also touch upon Rails' try method, how the pain of testing helps guide the code you write, where the Law of Demeter doesn't apply, how people don't refactor their tests, how to productively refactor your tests and avoid wasting time rewriting things, and much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-12-16T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/9cf3ba16-7801-4644-93a7-f66a8319de40.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":12828843,"duration_in_seconds":1599}]},{"id":"b0037c94-d114-4303-8d92-e4bc4189ea02","title":"26: Deep into the psyche of Gary Bernhardt","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/26","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Gary Berhardt from Destroy All Software Screencasts. Ben and Gary discuss DAS, how it has changed over the two years he's been doing it, and how his thinking has changed over that time. They then discuss Gary's thoughts on how to write software and tests, how we wants to \"fix the kernel\", and his exciting plans for the future. They also discuss his background, the production process behind Destroy All Software, and much, much more.\n\n\nDestroy All Software Screencasts\nFunctional Core, Imperative Shell\nErlang\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @garybernhardt, and @r00k on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Gary Berhardt from Destroy All Software Screencasts. Ben and Gary discuss DAS, how it has changed over the two years he's been doing it, and how his thinking has changed over that time. They then discuss Gary's thoughts on how to write software and tests, how we wants to "fix the kernel", and his exciting plans for the future. They also discuss his background, the production process behind Destroy All Software, and much, much more.
\n\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @garybernhardt, and @r00k on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Gary Berhardt from Destroy All Software Screencasts. Ben and Gary discuss DAS, how it has changed over the two years he's been doing it, and how his thinking has changed over that time. They then discuss Gary's thoughts on how to write software and tests, how we wants to \"fix the kernel\", and his exciting plans for the future. They also discuss his background, the production process behind Destroy All Software, and much, much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-12-09T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/0fc6a672-5d55-4734-b859-923fd97f93f3.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":19761287,"duration_in_seconds":2466}]},{"id":"05584609-3f28-4957-9d21-feee3370849f","title":"25: Long hours on the BoltBus","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/25","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Alex Godin from dispatch.io. Ben and Alex discuss Alex's hectic time in both apprentice.io and TechStars, how he got started at his age, what he's accomplished so far, what he worries about, when he is happiest, and his outlook on the future.\n\n\napprentice.io\nTechStars NYC\ndispatch.io\nSeth Godin\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @alex_godin, and @r00k on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Alex Godin from dispatch.io. Ben and Alex discuss Alex's hectic time in both apprentice.io and TechStars, how he got started at his age, what he's accomplished so far, what he worries about, when he is happiest, and his outlook on the future.
\n\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @alex_godin, and @r00k on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Alex Godin from dispatch.io. Ben and Alex discuss Alex's hectic time in both apprentice.io and TechStars, how he got started at his age, what he's accomplished so far, what he worries about, when he is happiest, and his outlook on the future.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-12-02T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/953f0a9a-6440-4043-80d9-1b53a38b0ebf.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":10351022,"duration_in_seconds":1290}]},{"id":"558bac5e-5294-4731-874f-8a43af1ad902","title":"24: Not so DRY that it chafes","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/24","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Sarah Mei, RailsBridge co-founder, a developer at Pivotal Labs, and Diaspora core team member. In this episode, recorded at RubyConf 2012, Ben and Sarah discuss how communication patterns of your team manifest themselves in the code it writes, and how understanding those patterns can help you improve your code. They discuss RailsBridge, teaching, how teaching is an incredible learning opportunity, and how RailsBridge has helped expand the community of women developers in San Francisco and beyond. Finally, they explore how she got into Ruby, and women in technology.\n\n\nRailsBridge\nPivotal Labs\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @sarahmei, and @r00k on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Sarah Mei, RailsBridge co-founder, a developer at Pivotal Labs, and Diaspora core team member. In this episode, recorded at RubyConf 2012, Ben and Sarah discuss how communication patterns of your team manifest themselves in the code it writes, and how understanding those patterns can help you improve your code. They discuss RailsBridge, teaching, how teaching is an incredible learning opportunity, and how RailsBridge has helped expand the community of women developers in San Francisco and beyond. Finally, they explore how she got into Ruby, and women in technology.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @sarahmei, and @r00k on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Sarah Mei, RailsBridge co-founder, a developer at Pivotal Labs, and Diaspora core team member. In this episode, recorded at RubyConf 2012, Ben and Sarah discuss how communication patterns of your team manifest themselves in the code it writes, and how understanding those patterns can help you improve your code. They discuss RailsBridge, teaching, how teaching is an incredible learning opportunity, and how RailsBridge has helped expand the community of women developers in San Francisco and beyond. Finally, they explore how she got into Ruby, and women in technology.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-11-25T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/c0ccc5ff-f0de-4387-9532-41b0e406b5c5.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":15329565,"duration_in_seconds":1912}]},{"id":"9cdc04f1-5365-4548-96ca-fae3cb28e392","title":"23: As a consultant it's always your fault","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/23","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Tammer Saleh and Randall Thomas, the founders of Thunderbolt Labs. In this episode, recorded at RubyConf 2012, they discuss their philosophy of running and building the company, how they differ from other consulting companies, and how they do much more than just Rails programming and how its leading to very interesting new kinds of work. Why they list their prices right on their website, and how they derived their rate of $277 per hour. They also explore what their first year in business has been like, some challenges they've faced, and some important lessons they've learned.\n\n\nThunderbolt Labs\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @thunderboltlabs, @tsaleh, @daksis and @r00k on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Tammer Saleh and Randall Thomas, the founders of Thunderbolt Labs. In this episode, recorded at RubyConf 2012, they discuss their philosophy of running and building the company, how they differ from other consulting companies, and how they do much more than just Rails programming and how its leading to very interesting new kinds of work. Why they list their prices right on their website, and how they derived their rate of $277 per hour. They also explore what their first year in business has been like, some challenges they've faced, and some important lessons they've learned.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @thunderboltlabs, @tsaleh, @daksis and @r00k on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Tammer Saleh and Randall Thomas, the founders of Thunderbolt Labs. In this episode, recorded at RubyConf 2012, they discuss their philosophy of running and building the company, how they differ from other consulting companies, and how they do much more than just Rails programming and how its leading to very interesting new kinds of work. Why they list their prices right on their website, and how they derived their rate of $277 per hour. They also explore what their first year in business has been like, some challenges they've faced, and some important lessons they've learned.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-11-18T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/97703dbe-8fcf-4c56-8ca4-8d590c11dc2a.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":15348339,"duration_in_seconds":1914}]},{"id":"3f706b11-2568-49f8-9fa2-0eece1d6bf7a","title":"22: Your code looks nice today","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/22","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Bryan Helmkamp, founder of Code Climate, hosted software metrics for Ruby apps. In this episode, recorded at RubyConf 2012, they discuss what code climate is, how Bryan considers it a small business not a startup, and what its like being a solo founder. They also discuss how code metrics can help you write and maintain better software, how it helps, and how it changes behavior. Finally they explore what the biggest surprise for him has been so far, some of his plans, and what success looks like for him.\n\n\nCode Climate\nSteve Berry, Thought Merchants\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, @brynary and @codeclimate on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Bryan Helmkamp, founder of Code Climate, hosted software metrics for Ruby apps. In this episode, recorded at RubyConf 2012, they discuss what code climate is, how Bryan considers it a small business not a startup, and what its like being a solo founder. They also discuss how code metrics can help you write and maintain better software, how it helps, and how it changes behavior. Finally they explore what the biggest surprise for him has been so far, some of his plans, and what success looks like for him.
\n\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, @brynary and @codeclimate on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Bryan Helmkamp, founder of Code Climate, hosted software metrics for Ruby apps. In this episode, recorded at RubyConf 2012, they discuss what code climate is, how Bryan considers it a small business not a startup, and what its like being a solo founder. They also discuss how code metrics can help you write and maintain better software, how it helps, and how it changes behavior. Finally they explore what the biggest surprise for him has been so far, some of his plans, and what success looks like for him.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-11-15T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/ef389869-e33a-497e-82ad-e41b63ac63de.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":11231070,"duration_in_seconds":1400}]},{"id":"d38b46a1-f727-4c07-933f-2c2f8a695f02","title":"21: Data, Context and Interaction","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/21","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Jim Gay, author of Clean Ruby, and Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot, in the episode recorded at RubyConf 2012. Ben, Joe, and Jim discuss Data, Context and Interaction (DCI), what it is, whether it is at odds with Object-Oriented Programming, how it can be applied to your applications, and much more.\n\n\nClean Ruby\nDCI\nDTO\nRadiant CMS\nWriting Effective Use Cases\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @saturnflyer, @r00k, and @joeferris on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Jim Gay, author of Clean Ruby, and Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot, in the episode recorded at RubyConf 2012. Ben, Joe, and Jim discuss Data, Context and Interaction (DCI), what it is, whether it is at odds with Object-Oriented Programming, how it can be applied to your applications, and much more.
\n\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @saturnflyer, @r00k, and @joeferris on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Jim Gay, author of Clean Ruby, and Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot, in the episode recorded at RubyConf 2012. Ben, Joe, and Jim discuss Data, Context and Interaction (DCI), what it is, whether it is at odds with Object-Oriented Programming, how it can be applied to your applications, and much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-11-04T19:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/1ebc3d20-3b0d-4fe8-a32f-25c092ef75be.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":13553425,"duration_in_seconds":1690}]},{"id":"af2343b2-5c16-4c52-a682-67adee496795","title":"20: Ruby Lightning","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/20","content_text":"In this special episode from RubyConf 2012 we pulled aside some of the attendees and found out what they're working on. We also include a selection of the great lightning talks at the conference. Enjoy!\n\n\nRob Mack from Spiceworks\nDr. Nic Williams from Engine Yard talks about BOSH\nRay Hightower from WisdomGroup, WindyCityRails, and ChicagoRuby\nNoel Rapin from Groupon\nJohn Foley and Nick Howard talk about Project Grok, an Open Source Code Reader Club (like a book club, but for code)\nBrian Ford from Engine Yard talks about Rubinious 2.0-rc1.\nJeff Casimir from JumpstartLab talks about gSchool\nDaniel Huckstep from Yardstick Software talks about rc files and sub.\nJoshua Szmajda talks about the Ruby Hangout, an online Ruby meetup.\nRon Evans from The Hybrid Group talks about gitnesse and wields a mean ukulele.\nChristian Trosclair from The Hybrid Group talks about Kids Code Camp and FeatureCreep\nRichard Schneeman from Heroku talks about Issue Triage.\nChris Maddox from LivingSocial talks about happiness.\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot and @rubyconf on twitter.","content_html":"In this special episode from RubyConf 2012 we pulled aside some of the attendees and found out what they're working on. We also include a selection of the great lightning talks at the conference. Enjoy!
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot and @rubyconf on twitter.
","summary":"In this special episode from RubyConf 2012 we pulled aside some of the attendees and found out what they're working on. We also include a selection of the great lightning talks at the conference. Enjoy!\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-11-02T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/f079a466-5fcb-4d1c-873c-d5bccdb98364.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":16304211,"duration_in_seconds":2034}]},{"id":"aad19bc4-b7a0-45c4-beb4-b17bfd3b85fc","title":"19: I have tons of guns and knives","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/19","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Aaron Patterson, Ruby Core team member, Rails Core team member, and a Señior Software Engineer at AT&T Interactive. Aaron and Ben discuss the upcoming features and excitement for Ruby 2.0 and some things Aaron would like to see in Ruby in the future that didn't quite make it into Ruby 2.0. They also discuss how the Rails Core team differs from the Ruby Core team, how much effort it takes to write a detailed blog post and how many mistakes are involved, how he likes being a ruby celebrity, his involvement in Seattle.rb and what it teaches him. Finally, how awesome his job is and how he could do it forever, how he worries about Ruby or Rails becoming irrelevant and wants to stop that from happening, how he is happy all the time, and if he could wave a magic wand and change one thing about Rails, what it would be. This and so much more in this entertaining episode recorded at RubyConf 2012.\n\n\nTender Lovemaking\nSeattle.rb\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @tenderlove, and @r00k on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Aaron Patterson, Ruby Core team member, Rails Core team member, and a Señior Software Engineer at AT&T Interactive. Aaron and Ben discuss the upcoming features and excitement for Ruby 2.0 and some things Aaron would like to see in Ruby in the future that didn't quite make it into Ruby 2.0. They also discuss how the Rails Core team differs from the Ruby Core team, how much effort it takes to write a detailed blog post and how many mistakes are involved, how he likes being a ruby celebrity, his involvement in Seattle.rb and what it teaches him. Finally, how awesome his job is and how he could do it forever, how he worries about Ruby or Rails becoming irrelevant and wants to stop that from happening, how he is happy all the time, and if he could wave a magic wand and change one thing about Rails, what it would be. This and so much more in this entertaining episode recorded at RubyConf 2012.
\n\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @tenderlove, and @r00k on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Aaron Patterson, Ruby Core team member, Rails Core team member, and a Señior Software Engineer at AT&T Interactive. Aaron and Ben discuss the upcoming features and excitement for Ruby 2.0 and some things Aaron would like to see in Ruby in the future that didn't quite make it into Ruby 2.0. They also discuss how the Rails Core team differs from the Ruby Core team, how much effort it takes to write a detailed blog post and how many mistakes are involved, how he likes being a ruby celebrity, his involvement in Seattle.rb and what it teaches him. Finally, how awesome his job is and how he could do it forever, how he worries about Ruby or Rails becoming irrelevant and wants to stop that from happening, how he is happy all the time, and if he could wave a magic wand and change one thing about Rails, what it would be. This and so much more in this entertaining episode recorded at RubyConf 2012.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-10-31T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/83387a00-a391-40d6-89ee-47b2f789dbce.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":18580937,"duration_in_seconds":2318}]},{"id":"1a3995c5-a00e-402b-8165-1a6a5b3fb8cc","title":"18: Trading Hours for Money","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/18","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Brennan Dunn, author of double your freelancing rate and planscope.io. Ben and Brennan discuss transitioning from a freelancer to a consulting company, the issues he faced doing it, and how he overcame them. How he promoted someone to replace him in his consulting company and is focused exclusively on products now, where Planscope came from, how it works, and how he more than doubled the conversion rate. How content marketing was slow to work for him, and how he fixed it. How to effectively pitch and sell products, what victory looks like for him and what he's working for, and so much more.\n\n\nDouble Your Freelancing Rate in 14 Days\nPlanscope, Project Management for Independents\nKalzumeus Podcast 3: Growing Consulting Practices, with Brennan Dunn\nWorkshop: Start Your Own Multi-Million Dollar Consultancy\nRamit Sethi, I Will Teach You To Be Rich\nThe Brain Audit: Why Customers Buy (And Why They Don't)\nBidsketch\nFreckle\nMicroConf\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @brennandunn on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Brennan Dunn, author of double your freelancing rate and planscope.io. Ben and Brennan discuss transitioning from a freelancer to a consulting company, the issues he faced doing it, and how he overcame them. How he promoted someone to replace him in his consulting company and is focused exclusively on products now, where Planscope came from, how it works, and how he more than doubled the conversion rate. How content marketing was slow to work for him, and how he fixed it. How to effectively pitch and sell products, what victory looks like for him and what he's working for, and so much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @brennandunn on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Brennan Dunn, author of double your freelancing rate and planscope.io. Ben and Brennan discuss transitioning from a freelancer to a consulting company, the issues he faced doing it, and how he overcame them. How he promoted someone to replace him in his consulting company and is focused exclusively on products now, where Planscope came from, how it works, and how he more than doubled the conversion rate. How content marketing was slow to work for him, and how he fixed it. How to effectively pitch and sell products, what victory looks like for him and what he's working for, and so much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-10-28T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/0b6ff433-9bd4-49f3-b2db-ee9f3b7a1947.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":19052521,"duration_in_seconds":2377}]},{"id":"07560bc1-d4cf-43ce-95cd-b3e2ad19664e","title":"17: I'm feeling full and Sassy","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/17","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Kyle Fiedler, a designer at thoughtbot, and one of the creators of Bourbon Neat. Ben and Kyle discuss responsive design, what it is, and how to implement it. They also discuss Bourbon (a library of Sass mixins) and Neat (a fluid grid framework based on Bourbon), what's wrong with Twitter Bootstrap and why Bourbon Neat is better, and the other reasons why Bourbon Neat was created despite all the other grid frameworks that are available. Kyle shares the most common design mistakes he sees developers make in projects, whether or not design is subjective or whether it can be more objective, his design process and how it has changed, what the Golden Ratio is, and how it's used in Neat. Finally, they also discuss the Design for Developers workshop offered by thoughtbot, which teaches the fundamental design principles and tools to developers, and much, much more.\n\n\nBourbon\nBourbon Neat\nSass\nDesign for Developers\nGolden ratio\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @kylefiedler on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Kyle Fiedler, a designer at thoughtbot, and one of the creators of Bourbon Neat. Ben and Kyle discuss responsive design, what it is, and how to implement it. They also discuss Bourbon (a library of Sass mixins) and Neat (a fluid grid framework based on Bourbon), what's wrong with Twitter Bootstrap and why Bourbon Neat is better, and the other reasons why Bourbon Neat was created despite all the other grid frameworks that are available. Kyle shares the most common design mistakes he sees developers make in projects, whether or not design is subjective or whether it can be more objective, his design process and how it has changed, what the Golden Ratio is, and how it's used in Neat. Finally, they also discuss the Design for Developers workshop offered by thoughtbot, which teaches the fundamental design principles and tools to developers, and much, much more.
\n\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @kylefiedler on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Kyle Fiedler, a designer at thoughtbot, and one of the creators of Bourbon Neat. Ben and Kyle discuss responsive design, what it is, and how to implement it. They also discuss Bourbon (a library of Sass mixins) and Neat (a fluid grid framework based on Bourbon), what's wrong with Twitter Bootstrap and why Bourbon Neat is better, and the other reasons why Bourbon Neat was created despite all the other grid frameworks that are available. Kyle shares the most common design mistakes he sees developers make in projects, whether or not design is subjective or whether it can be more objective, his design process and how it has changed, what the Golden Ratio is, and how it's used in Neat. Finally, they also discuss the Design for Developers workshop offered by thoughtbot, which teaches the fundamental design principles and tools to developers, and much, much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-10-21T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/e5c7b16a-63e4-45ab-888b-c6436a7af082.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":12256042,"duration_in_seconds":1528}]},{"id":"eccf1329-320a-46d6-a3e3-428d0c0a0c93","title":"16: Making it fast","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/16","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by William Josephson and Jay Moorthi from Solano Labs, the makers of tddium, the hosted, scalable continuous integration service. They discuss the architecture of the service, including how they're using Go to speed up parts of it, the surprises they've had in getting started, how they've gotten involved in the Ruby community, and how they validated their idea and get feedback from customers. Also, their experience working with thoughtbot, what has worked and not worked for driving public customers to the site and converting them, dealing with privacy, customer support, their goals and their growth plans, and much more.\n\n\ntddium (Solano Labs)\nGo\neventmachine\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @tddium on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by William Josephson and Jay Moorthi from Solano Labs, the makers of tddium, the hosted, scalable continuous integration service. They discuss the architecture of the service, including how they're using Go to speed up parts of it, the surprises they've had in getting started, how they've gotten involved in the Ruby community, and how they validated their idea and get feedback from customers. Also, their experience working with thoughtbot, what has worked and not worked for driving public customers to the site and converting them, dealing with privacy, customer support, their goals and their growth plans, and much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @tddium on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by William Josephson and Jay Moorthi from Solano Labs, the makers of tddium, the hosted, scalable continuous integration service. They discuss the architecture of the service, including how they're using Go to speed up parts of it, the surprises they've had in getting started, how they've gotten involved in the Ruby community, and how they validated their idea and get feedback from customers. Also, their experience working with thoughtbot, what has worked and not worked for driving public customers to the site and converting them, dealing with privacy, customer support, their goals and their growth plans, and much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-10-14T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/45d5c48a-4d8e-4c78-8615-d623cb94d660.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":17066362,"duration_in_seconds":2129}]},{"id":"31348031-3151-4507-aecf-92d19514879b","title":"15: Moving money should be free","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/15","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Seth Priebatsch, creator of SCVNGR and LevelUp. Ben and Seth talk about LevelUp, how it got started, how they make money, and what the future holds. They also discuss his daily schedule, maintaining focus, what he worries about, how your motives can limit your success, how to change the world by choosing the right thing to change, why he stopped hiding doubt and started being more transparent, and much, much more, including the most interesting question he's never been asked.\n\n\nSCVNGR\nLevelUp\nTEDX Talks, \"Seth Priebatsch: The game layer on top of the world\"\nTED Talks, \"Iain Hutchison: Saving faces\"\nIsis mobile wallet\nReach the Beach Relay\nKillington Spartan Race\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @sethpriebatsch on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Seth Priebatsch, creator of SCVNGR and LevelUp. Ben and Seth talk about LevelUp, how it got started, how they make money, and what the future holds. They also discuss his daily schedule, maintaining focus, what he worries about, how your motives can limit your success, how to change the world by choosing the right thing to change, why he stopped hiding doubt and started being more transparent, and much, much more, including the most interesting question he's never been asked.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @sethpriebatsch on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Seth Priebatsch, creator of SCVNGR and LevelUp. Ben and Seth talk about LevelUp, how it got started, how they make money, and what the future holds. They also discuss his daily schedule, maintaining focus, what he worries about, how your motives can limit your success, how to change the world by choosing the right thing to change, why he stopped hiding doubt and started being more transparent, and much, much more, including the most interesting question he's never been asked.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-10-07T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/011feee2-4301-4c2c-9ac4-dbc558de29f6.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":20947904,"duration_in_seconds":2614}]},{"id":"5def7271-1309-4c6e-baaf-c43c1cacf13b","title":"14: Say goodbye to that big guy","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/14","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Prem Sichanugrist, a developer at thoughtbot and the #31 top Rails contributor. Ben and Prem walk through the major changes that will be introduced in Rails 4, including strong parameters, the new built in queue, cache_digest, changes in ActiveRecord::Relation, and ActiveResource. The also discuss what people can do to ease contribution and issue submission to Rails, how can people get their first commit into Rails, and much more.\n\n\nPrems Boston.rb talk and video: What to Expect in Rails 4.0\nstrong_parameters\nQueue\ncache_digests\nRussian (Matryoshka) doll\nBasecamp next\nBasecamp next RAM and caching hardware\nActiveRecord::Relation\nNull Object pattern\nTell Don't Ask\nActiveResource\nPrem's first commit to Rails\ndocrails\nRuby on Rails Guides\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @sikachu on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Prem Sichanugrist, a developer at thoughtbot and the #31 top Rails contributor. Ben and Prem walk through the major changes that will be introduced in Rails 4, including strong parameters, the new built in queue, cache_digest, changes in ActiveRecord::Relation, and ActiveResource. The also discuss what people can do to ease contribution and issue submission to Rails, how can people get their first commit into Rails, and much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @sikachu on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Prem Sichanugrist, a developer at thoughtbot and the #31 top Rails contributor. Ben and Prem walk through the major changes that will be introduced in Rails 4, including strong parameters, the new built in queue, cache\\_digest, changes in ActiveRecord::Relation, and ActiveResource. The also discuss what people can do to ease contribution and issue submission to Rails, how can people get their first commit into Rails, and much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-09-30T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/b0cf186c-90b3-40f3-b7ac-eddc7ef82362.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":14730114,"duration_in_seconds":1837}]},{"id":"ba30ccdd-9e0c-4cce-bed3-9765fa1830bd","title":"13: I'll disagree in just a little bit","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/13","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot, and Josh Clayton, developer at thoughtbot and the lead maintainer of FactoryGirl. In this Rails focused episode, Ben, Joe, and Josh dish on ActiveRecord callbacks, observers, state machines, and before_filters vs. middleware. They discuss the good, the bad, and the ugly of each, and how to keep your app clean while doing the right thing. Then they touch on what's new in FactoryGirl, how using build_stubbed can speed up your test suite, and much more.\n\n\nRails Guide: Active Record Validations and Callbacks\nRails Guide: Action Controller, Filters\nBlog post: Ruby and KISS, Sitting in a Tree\nMethod Object\nFeature Envy\nRack: a Ruby Webserver Interface\nRails Guide: Rails on Rack\nRack::Cache\nBlog post: Use Factory Girl’s build_stubbed for a Faster Test Suite\nBlog post: Mind-Bending Factories\nMetaprogramming in the Wild: Source-Diving FactoryGirl\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @joeferris, and @joshuaclayton on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot, and Josh Clayton, developer at thoughtbot and the lead maintainer of FactoryGirl. In this Rails focused episode, Ben, Joe, and Josh dish on ActiveRecord callbacks, observers, state machines, and before_filters vs. middleware. They discuss the good, the bad, and the ugly of each, and how to keep your app clean while doing the right thing. Then they touch on what's new in FactoryGirl, how using build_stubbed can speed up your test suite, and much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @joeferris, and @joshuaclayton on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot, and Josh Clayton, developer at thoughtbot and the lead maintainer of FactoryGirl. In this Rails focused episode, Ben, Joe, and Josh dish on ActiveRecord callbacks, observers, state machines, and before\\_filters vs. middleware. They discuss the good, the bad, and the ugly of each, and how to keep your app clean while doing the right thing. Then they touch on what's new in FactoryGirl, how using build\\_stubbed can speed up your test suite, and much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-09-23T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/017b4a28-bf25-49cd-8492-986c9e6df412.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":14443860,"duration_in_seconds":1801}]},{"id":"0f368e09-aa6e-4621-821d-62f414523844","title":"12: I think I'll be on a yacht","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/12","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Matt Jankowski, COO of thoughtbot. Ben and Matt start off by talking about how Matt came to join thoughtbot and his role at the company. They then discuss the typical thoughtbot sales process. How all problems are communication problems. How the way thoughtbot works is appealing to startups and how they hear about thoughtbot. How thoughtbot handles its 20% investment time in open source and our own products, how we preserve that despite trying to grow the business, and how that has evolved over time. The reasons why it's not always possible to work faster by increasing the team size. Goals, metrics, and things thoughtbot can do better. Plus, how project management techniques translate to child-rearing, his standing desk, and much more.\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @jankowski on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Matt Jankowski, COO of thoughtbot. Ben and Matt start off by talking about how Matt came to join thoughtbot and his role at the company. They then discuss the typical thoughtbot sales process. How all problems are communication problems. How the way thoughtbot works is appealing to startups and how they hear about thoughtbot. How thoughtbot handles its 20% investment time in open source and our own products, how we preserve that despite trying to grow the business, and how that has evolved over time. The reasons why it's not always possible to work faster by increasing the team size. Goals, metrics, and things thoughtbot can do better. Plus, how project management techniques translate to child-rearing, his standing desk, and much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @jankowski on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Matt Jankowski, COO of thoughtbot. Ben and Matt start off by talking about how Matt came to join thoughtbot and his role at the company. They then discuss the typical thoughtbot sales process. How all problems are communication problems. How the way thoughtbot works is appealing to startups and how they hear about thoughtbot. How thoughtbot handles its 20% investment time in open source and our own products, how we preserve that despite trying to grow the business, and how that has evolved over time. The reasons why it's not always possible to work faster by increasing the team size. Goals, metrics, and things thoughtbot can do better. Plus, how project management techniques translate to child-rearing, his standing desk, and much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-09-16T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/37f0fd47-461d-40a5-9e2b-2e21540e0e0d.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":18477361,"duration_in_seconds":2306}]},{"id":"3db61091-8abc-4713-94e6-c422ef159078","title":"11: You want your system to bend, not to break","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/11","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Sean Cribbs, Software Engineer at Basho, the makers of Riak. Ben and Sean start off discussing the interesting overlap of programmers and musicians and why it seems to happen so much. They then discuss Sean's role at Basho, what Riak is, how it works, and how it differs from other NoSQL databases. Sean works remotely for Basho, which has several offices, so Ben and Sean discuss remote workers and remote offices, and the ins and outs of navigating that set up, and how he got paid to work on open source. Finally, they discuss Erlang, which most of Riak is written in. These topics, plus much more.\n\n\nCorpus callosum\nRiak Overview\nBasho\nRuby client for Riak\nDynamo: Amazon’s Highly Available Key-value Store - PDF\nEventual consistency\nRiak: Read Repair\nBitTorrent Swarms\nDistributed hash table\nRiak: Ring\nRiak: Gossiping\nCassandra\nProject Voldemort\nStrangeloop, Sept 23-25, 2012\nRICON, Oct 10-11, 2012\nWhy Riak\nErlang Programming Language\nPragmatic Programmers: Erlang in Practice screencast\nErlang: dialyzer\nRuby laser\nProgramming Erlang: Software for a Concurrent World\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @seancribbs on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Sean Cribbs, Software Engineer at Basho, the makers of Riak. Ben and Sean start off discussing the interesting overlap of programmers and musicians and why it seems to happen so much. They then discuss Sean's role at Basho, what Riak is, how it works, and how it differs from other NoSQL databases. Sean works remotely for Basho, which has several offices, so Ben and Sean discuss remote workers and remote offices, and the ins and outs of navigating that set up, and how he got paid to work on open source. Finally, they discuss Erlang, which most of Riak is written in. These topics, plus much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @seancribbs on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Sean Cribbs, Software Engineer at Basho, the makers of Riak. Ben and Sean start off discussing the interesting overlap of programmers and musicians and why it seems to happen so much. They then discuss Sean's role at Basho, what Riak is, how it works, and how it differs from other NoSQL databases. Sean works remotely for Basho, which has several offices, so Ben and Sean discuss remote workers and remote offices, and the ins and outs of navigating that set up, and how he got paid to work on open source. Finally, they discuss Erlang, which most of Riak is written in. These topics, plus much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-09-09T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/935dbc63-94cb-49a5-9962-89300901e4d8.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":26145200,"duration_in_seconds":3264}]},{"id":"18ae90fc-5e92-4ec6-93bc-50dcfe8aaf5c","title":"10: Isn't the last stage of grieving acceptance?","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/10","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Joe Ferris and Mike Burns. They start off with some recommendations for awesome programming books and then dive right in to questions about not following \"Tell don't ask\" in the view, how MVC and the Single Responsibility Principle may be at odds with \"Tell don't ask\" in the view, and what a more object oriented approach may look like. They also discuss \"Class-oriented programming\", what it is, why it is bad, how Rails does it, and how to avoid it. They take a quick trip through Mike's experiments in Ruby and Smalltalk in creating his own programming language. The three codecateers then take on the really important topic of method order and code organization, and finally they reflect on how their code has changed over the years, how no solution is foolproof, and how to move to the next level as a programmer. These topics and more, in this installment of the GIANT ROBOTS SMASHING INTO OTHER GIANT ROBOTS podcast!\n\n\nStructure and Interpretation of Computer Programs\nMIT course that everyone failed\nGrowing Object-Oriented Software, Guided by Tests\nClean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship\nTell Don't Ask\nSingle Responsibility Principle\nShotgun Surgery\nSmalltalk, Squeak\nScala, Play framework\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, @joeferris, @mikeburns on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Joe Ferris and Mike Burns. They start off with some recommendations for awesome programming books and then dive right in to questions about not following "Tell don't ask" in the view, how MVC and the Single Responsibility Principle may be at odds with "Tell don't ask" in the view, and what a more object oriented approach may look like. They also discuss "Class-oriented programming", what it is, why it is bad, how Rails does it, and how to avoid it. They take a quick trip through Mike's experiments in Ruby and Smalltalk in creating his own programming language. The three codecateers then take on the really important topic of method order and code organization, and finally they reflect on how their code has changed over the years, how no solution is foolproof, and how to move to the next level as a programmer. These topics and more, in this installment of the GIANT ROBOTS SMASHING INTO OTHER GIANT ROBOTS podcast!
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, @joeferris, @mikeburns on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Joe Ferris and Mike Burns. They start off with some recommendations for awesome programming books and then dive right in to questions about not following \"Tell don't ask\" in the view, how MVC and the Single Responsibility Principle may be at odds with \"Tell don't ask\" in the view, and what a more object oriented approach may look like. They also discuss \"Class-oriented programming\", what it is, why it is bad, how Rails does it, and how to avoid it. They take a quick trip through Mike's experiments in Ruby and Smalltalk in creating his own programming language. The three codecateers then take on the really important topic of method order and code organization, and finally they reflect on how their code has changed over the years, how no solution is foolproof, and how to move to the next level as a programmer. These topics and more, in this installment of the GIANT ROBOTS SMASHING INTO OTHER GIANT ROBOTS podcast!\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-09-02T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/15a1aee2-aded-4899-bdf5-dbdcf3e85f1c.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":20696234,"duration_in_seconds":2583}]},{"id":"4daa4169-4eae-4992-9aac-1380bde78e4d","title":"9: TDD for Business!!","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/9","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Chad Pytel, the CEO and Founder of thoughtbot. Ben and Chad talk about the history of thoughtbot, success, failures, lessons learned, the current growth plans for the company, and much more. They also answer listener questions about hiring, growing, balancing client and internal work like open source and products, and contractor rates and how to set them.\n\n\nStand-up meeting\nBlog post: Keeping the Pressure On\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @cpytel on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Chad Pytel, the CEO and Founder of thoughtbot. Ben and Chad talk about the history of thoughtbot, success, failures, lessons learned, the current growth plans for the company, and much more. They also answer listener questions about hiring, growing, balancing client and internal work like open source and products, and contractor rates and how to set them.
\n\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @cpytel on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Chad Pytel, the CEO and Founder of thoughtbot. Ben and Chad talk about the history of thoughtbot, success, failures, lessons learned, the current growth plans for the company, and much more. They also answer listener questions about hiring, growing, balancing client and internal work like open source and products, and contractor rates and how to set them.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-08-23T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/88420960-e9f8-49bc-978d-391218e08756.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":24184771,"duration_in_seconds":3019}]},{"id":"b27a1556-7144-4874-9d42-36867526f213","title":"8: Wax on, Wax off","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/8","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Gabe Berke-Williams and Edward Loveall. Gabe is developer at thoughtbot and the product manager of the thoughtbot apprenticeship program, apprentice.io. Edward is a current design apprentice. Gabe, Edward, and Ben talk about apprentice.io, how it works, it's successes, and lessons learned. They also discuss how Gabe goes about mentoring new developers, and effective learning and teaching methods. Edward also gives his perspective on his apprenticeship how it went, his typical day as an apprentice, his advice for incoming apprentices, and much more.\n\n\napprentice.io\nApprenticship Patterns\nThe Pickaxe\nRed-Black Trees\nThe Rise of The Software Apprenticeship Academy (BostInno)\nLessons Learned From Our Development/Designer Apprenticeship Program (BostInno)\n\"Gang of Four\" Design Patterns\nIntrepid Labs\nTake the Interview\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, @gabebw and @edwardloveall on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Gabe Berke-Williams and Edward Loveall. Gabe is developer at thoughtbot and the product manager of the thoughtbot apprenticeship program, apprentice.io. Edward is a current design apprentice. Gabe, Edward, and Ben talk about apprentice.io, how it works, it's successes, and lessons learned. They also discuss how Gabe goes about mentoring new developers, and effective learning and teaching methods. Edward also gives his perspective on his apprenticeship how it went, his typical day as an apprentice, his advice for incoming apprentices, and much more.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, @gabebw and @edwardloveall on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Gabe Berke-Williams and Edward Loveall. Gabe is developer at thoughtbot and the product manager of the thoughtbot apprenticeship program, apprentice.io. Edward is a current design apprentice. Gabe, Edward, and Ben talk about apprentice.io, how it works, it's successes, and lessons learned. They also discuss how Gabe goes about mentoring new developers, and effective learning and teaching methods. Edward also gives his perspective on his apprenticeship how it went, his typical day as an apprentice, his advice for incoming apprentices, and much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-08-16T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/66a5b522-79b7-4616-81d5-fae6a0fe3325.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":14566001,"duration_in_seconds":1816}]},{"id":"34654fd6-3c52-4a82-8954-dc6226426dc7","title":"7: Something Else Was Smellier","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/7","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is once again joined by Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot. Joe and Ben dive right in to a technical discussion about Objects versus Structures. They then discuss what Joe does as the new CTO of thoughtbot, and how his goal is to set up a system where everybody is teaching everybody. Finally, they discuss why Joe doesn't like using rspec's let and subject, and his strategy for writing tests without them.\n\n\nObject Mentor blog, Objects vs. Structures\nRobert Martin Shape Hierarchy (Open Closed Principle)\nMartin Fowler's Refactoring\nCode smell\nCase statement code smell\nVisitor pattern\nShotgun surgery\nMethod object\nComposition over inheritance\npaperclip\nGrowing Object-Oriented Software, Guided by Tests\nthoughtbot's apprentice.io\nParkinson's Law of Triviality (bikeshedding)\nBroken windows theory\nrspec's let and subject\nMystery Guest\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @joeferris on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is once again joined by Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot. Joe and Ben dive right in to a technical discussion about Objects versus Structures. They then discuss what Joe does as the new CTO of thoughtbot, and how his goal is to set up a system where everybody is teaching everybody. Finally, they discuss why Joe doesn't like using rspec's let and subject, and his strategy for writing tests without them.
\n\n![Railsberry Power Posing!](\"https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/904042_10151635010996111_161323981_o.jpg\"){kind=link}
let and subjectFollow @thoughtbot, @r00k, and @joeferris on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is once again joined by Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot. Joe and Ben dive right in to a technical discussion about Objects versus Structures. They then discuss what Joe does as the new CTO of thoughtbot, and how his goal is to set up a system where everybody is teaching everybody. Finally, they discuss why Joe doesn't like using rspec's let and subject, and his strategy for writing tests without them.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-08-09T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/d6696aac-7be8-477e-be92-26af6b8518cd.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":16420113,"duration_in_seconds":2048}]},{"id":"9b28d912-763f-459a-997d-c724384b45b8","title":"6: MVP of Personal Hygiene","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/6","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Dan Powell, founder of Abakas. Dan plays the role of Consulting CTO for his clients. They discuss the best and the worst of his job, his history as a Linux hacker, and what his experience has taught him about technology and technology trends, and how he stays on top of them. Also, how to create effective, well-written, maintainable software, the Rails talent crunch, developers getting promoted to management, maintaining work-life balance and how not to get burnt out, and much, much more.\n\n\nAbakas\nMicroway \"Screamer 533\"\nDEC Multia\nAbakas\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot and @r00k on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Dan Powell, founder of Abakas. Dan plays the role of Consulting CTO for his clients. They discuss the best and the worst of his job, his history as a Linux hacker, and what his experience has taught him about technology and technology trends, and how he stays on top of them. Also, how to create effective, well-written, maintainable software, the Rails talent crunch, developers getting promoted to management, maintaining work-life balance and how not to get burnt out, and much, much more.
\n\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot and @r00k on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Dan Powell, founder of Abakas. Dan plays the role of Consulting CTO for his clients. They discuss the best and the worst of his job, his history as a Linux hacker, and what his experience has taught him about technology and technology trends, and how he stays on top of them. Also, how to create effective, well-written, maintainable software, the Rails talent crunch, developers getting promoted to management, maintaining work-life balance and how not to get burnt out, and much, much more.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-08-02T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/00783cfa-2789-419e-907f-f93cc132597c.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":21549979,"duration_in_seconds":2690}]},{"id":"d856343b-d082-4252-ae45-793e234920b8","title":"5: My wife is getting really into whiskey","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/5","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by “Cowboy” Ben Alman, JavaScript open source developer and Director of Pluginization at Bocoup. They discuss how Ben Alman got started with programming and his crazy projects, the open web, favorite tools, and one of his latest projects, Grunt. They also discuss CoffeeScript, and why Ben Alman’s not using it yet, speaking at conferences and how Ben Alman got more comfortable in front of crowds, whether its important to understand straight JavaScript, or just jQuery, and more! Also, Whiskey.\n\n\n\"Cowboy\" Ben Alman\nBocoup\nBen Alman's enormous project listing\nBocoup\nSublime Text 2\nM+ monospace font\nBen Alman's dotfiles and gpr\nGrunt on github, Grunt introduction\njake\nJSHint\nnpm\nCoffeeScript\nES.next\nVariadic function\nYUI Compressor\nBulleit Bourbon\nThe Macallan\nBig Ben Hillman @ The Big Easy\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @cowboy, and @r00k on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by “Cowboy” Ben Alman, JavaScript open source developer and Director of Pluginization at Bocoup. They discuss how Ben Alman got started with programming and his crazy projects, the open web, favorite tools, and one of his latest projects, Grunt. They also discuss CoffeeScript, and why Ben Alman’s not using it yet, speaking at conferences and how Ben Alman got more comfortable in front of crowds, whether its important to understand straight JavaScript, or just jQuery, and more! Also, Whiskey.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @cowboy, and @r00k on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by “Cowboy” Ben Alman, JavaScript open source developer and Director of Pluginization at Bocoup. They discuss how Ben Alman got started with programming and his crazy projects, the open web, favorite tools, and one of his latest projects, Grunt. They also discuss CoffeeScript, and why Ben Alman’s not using it yet, speaking at conferences and how Ben Alman got more comfortable in front of crowds, whether its important to understand straight JavaScript, or just jQuery, and more! Also, Whiskey.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-07-26T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/45dc7297-1166-4867-99ab-0428c777168e.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":23365864,"duration_in_seconds":2916}]},{"id":"0b05d404-d798-4d99-82cf-f04501b0405c","title":"4: I've got a little thoughtbot angel or devil on my shoulder","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/4","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by David Thyresson, the founder of Stattleship and a past client of thoughtbot. Ben and David discuss how he got started with Stattleship, how he came to work with thoughtbot, and what it was like to work with us. Also, how the idea of what he would initially build changed, and how through agile software development he discovered how it was wrong. How he learned Ruby on Rails from thoughtbot during his project. Finally, what has worked for driving visitors to the site, and important lessons learned about starting up, building an app, and running a business.\n\n\nStattleship\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @stattleship, and @r00k on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by David Thyresson, the founder of Stattleship and a past client of thoughtbot. Ben and David discuss how he got started with Stattleship, how he came to work with thoughtbot, and what it was like to work with us. Also, how the idea of what he would initially build changed, and how through agile software development he discovered how it was wrong. How he learned Ruby on Rails from thoughtbot during his project. Finally, what has worked for driving visitors to the site, and important lessons learned about starting up, building an app, and running a business.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @stattleship, and @r00k on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by David Thyresson, the founder of Stattleship and a past client of thoughtbot. Ben and David discuss how he got started with Stattleship, how he came to work with thoughtbot, and what it was like to work with us. Also, how the idea of what he would initially build changed, and how through agile software development he discovered how it was wrong. How he learned Ruby on Rails from thoughtbot during his project. Finally, what has worked for driving visitors to the site, and important lessons learned about starting up, building an app, and running a business.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-07-19T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/57c7dc3d-4e4b-435a-adfa-c47c643a6cc1.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":18089904,"duration_in_seconds":2257}]},{"id":"cd86b5f6-cea2-4d34-b80a-46c6fd5bafce","title":"3: The FactoryGirl Representation of a Factory","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/3","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Josh Clayton, the maintainer of FactoryGirl, and a developer at thoughtbot. Ben and Josh discuss FactoryGirl: using it, its development progress, and features. What it's like to run an open source project, and how to contribute to open source effectively. Looking at your old code and being a better developer. Approaches to testing. And answer your questions about: FactoryGirl, How to write effective tests suites and whether integration tests are a scam, our process for upgrading between Rails versions, testing complex UI logic, and leaving code untested.\n\n\nFactoryGirl\nThe Pickaxe\nfactory_girl_rails\nfactory_girl Google Group\nFactoryGirl Tips and Tricks\nIntegration Tests Are a Scam\nLone Star Ruby Conference\n\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @joshuaclayton, and @r00k on twitter.","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Josh Clayton, the maintainer of FactoryGirl, and a developer at thoughtbot. Ben and Josh discuss FactoryGirl: using it, its development progress, and features. What it's like to run an open source project, and how to contribute to open source effectively. Looking at your old code and being a better developer. Approaches to testing. And answer your questions about: FactoryGirl, How to write effective tests suites and whether integration tests are a scam, our process for upgrading between Rails versions, testing complex UI logic, and leaving code untested.
\n\nFollow @thoughtbot, @joshuaclayton, and @r00k on twitter.
","summary":"Ben Orenstein is joined by Josh Clayton, the maintainer of FactoryGirl, and a developer at thoughtbot. Ben and Josh discuss FactoryGirl: using it, its development progress, and features. What it's like to run an open source project, and how to contribute to open source effectively. Looking at your old code and being a better developer. Approaches to testing. And answer your questions about: FactoryGirl, How to write effective tests suites and whether integration tests are a scam, our process for upgrading between Rails versions, testing complex UI logic, and leaving code untested.\r\n\r\n","date_published":"2012-07-12T20:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/124f6fb8-c1ce-4784-afd9-daeb5898e044/8b82cc9a-475b-4eb5-a86e-0af63763806f.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":19408056,"duration_in_seconds":2422}]},{"id":"d9eae58b-6179-42aa-a12d-7da2f6c65f50","title":"2: Design with a sip of Bourbon","url":"https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/2","content_text":"Ben Orenstein is joined this week by Phil LaPier, the creator of Bourbon and a designer at thoughtbot. Ben and Phil discuss the design process, fundamentals of visual design, common design errors, and how to be a better designer (even if you're a developer), and how to work with designers as a developer. They also answer some audience questions about design: How to handle feedback from clients, and HAML vs. HTML.\n\n\nBourbon\nDribbble\nDan Cederholm - Dribbble\nLea Verou - Twitter\nBenjamin De Cock - Twitter\nJason Santa Maria - Twitter\nTrent Walton\nAdobe Fireworks\nBourbon\nSass\nBourbon Grid-Width\nBourbon Font Stacks\n","content_html":"Ben Orenstein is joined this week by Phil LaPier, the creator of Bourbon and a designer at thoughtbot. Ben and Phil discuss the design process, fundamentals of visual design, common design errors, and how to be a better designer (even if you're a developer), and how to work with designers as a developer. They also answer some audience questions about design: How to handle feedback from clients, and HAML vs. HTML.
\n\nBen Orenstein and Joe Ferris (and the surprise special guest Seana Quental) start the series off with a very technical discussion about Polymorphism vs. Conditionals. We also answer some of the audience questions we asked for last week.
\n\n